# Damage done and rent not paid



## ImARebel (23 Oct 2008)

I am getting conflicting advise on this one (including off the PRTB) so if anyone knows the answer I'd appreciate it (apologies for the length of the post)

We had a couple in our apartment rented mid-Sept 2008. They subsequently broke up and we offered the apartment to the g/f who stayed in it, said she could get someone in to share the rent and we would update the lease to include the new tenant. She turned us down and on Friday the 10th of Oct she rang us to tell us she was moving out and would be gone that weekend. She dragged her heels moving out and was still living there on the 14th of Oct and this was the day the DD was due from the bank. It went through but was later reversed by the bank as she did not have the funds to meet it.

She finally moved out on Friday 17th of Oct and when we went to the apartment on the saturday we found that alot of damage had been done to the apartment. Bedroom door cracked, mirrors broken, lamps smashed, light bulbs broken all over the floor, locker broken as well as that it was filthy (food thrown on the kitchen floor etc) and they had only been there 1 month!

We have kept their security deposit as the rent was due and because of the damage done. In our eyes we were due 1 month's notice. The PRTB have told us that they can lodge a complaint about us keeping their deposit that it was done so illegally.

How can this be?

She did not give us 1 month's notice and surely given the damage done to the apartment and the fact we were owed rent on the 14th we were perfectly entitled to keep it.

I then sought other advice and was hold had the rent gone through on the 14th we were entitled to keep 3 weeks of that (bringing us up to the date 1 month on from when she gave notice) and that because she broke a fixed term contract we were also entitled to keep the security deposit on a pro rata basis until we got it rented again. 

That all said we are majorly out of pocket. She's left owing money on the ESB (which I can't subsequently put into her name - she's not going to ring them and set it up just so she can get a bill), the damage done plus the month's rent we were owed for October.

What are we legally allowed to pursue her for through the PRTB? Non-payment of rent? The damage done? Unpaid bills? We don't want to claim for something we are not entitled to. It's just we are down rent and we're not rich business man that can suck it up and not feel the pinch.

I know you'll say cut your losses (and I'd agree at least she's not squatting and not paying the rent we can put it back together and get renting again) but my partner does not want to do that. 

thanks


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## bugler (23 Oct 2008)

Did you take photos of the damage? Document as much as you can. I'm guessing you do have a copy of the lease. 

Don't worry about it. They broke a fixed term lease, rejected your offer of compromise and trashed the place into the bargain (probably fighting!). Keep their full deposit. Are they actually asking for it back?

You can lodge a case through the PRTB, this will take time and to be honest I'm unsure how effective any judgement made against the tenant would be. It might just be a victory on paper, but someone else may be able to guide you on that one.



> That all said we are majorly out of pocket. She's left owing money on the ESB (which I can't subsequently put into her name - she's not going to ring them and set it up just so she can get a bill), the damage done plus the month's rent we were owed for October.



Does the damage exceed the deposit? If it doesn't I don't see how you are out of pocket too much. Get the place tidied up and repaired using the deposit, and get it rented out again ASAP. The ESB for a month won't be too much.

I've made certain assumptions, that there was no lease break clause, that the tenants' did not indeed serve any written notice to quit etc. 

Also, can you confirm that the tenant was in the dwelling only from mid-Sept 08 - Oct 17 08?


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## ImARebel (23 Oct 2008)

I have it all photographed and documented. The damage and the unpaid bills makes up the guts of the deposit. the problem was that there was rent to be paid on the 14th (which if they had served their notice properly would have been paid to us) and it would have covered the morgage payment for October (does that make sense to you?)

We had to repair the damage using the deposit but our mortgage payment was due out on the 20th and because of the rent not being paid on the 14th we basically had to pay that ourselves out of our own money/wages.

So we are down the mortgage payment on the apartment.

Agreed it would more than likely only be a victory on paper. But your man is such a scumbag it would make my partner feel a hell of a lot better about things. I'm not a violent person but if ever I came across a man that needed a severe lesson it's this fella.

That all said we would never have acted in that way but he did and still does deserve a good kicking.

some people...

thankfully we are rid of them and really one month's rent I know isn't alot in the grand scheme of things. But we do feel they shouldn't be left away with it (if, as I mentioned before, we are entitled to claim for either the unpaid rent or the damage done)


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## bugler (23 Oct 2008)

Can you not get new tenants in now? If you get new tenants in and paying rent from say October 27 then your vacant period for which no rent was received will cover October 15-26. All other periods will have had a paying tenant. I see what you're saying about the mortgage payment, but that's more a matter of timing than anything else. 

Get it let out and earning rent again. Keep the deposit, in theory you can pursue the tenants for the remainder of the fixed term rent but in practice I don't see you getting a result this way. Chalk it down to experience, and try and find better tenants this time


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## ImARebel (23 Oct 2008)

Ah I see what you are saying bugler and I get what you mean about the timing. Thankfully it's nearly ready for renting again. The main job left is to repair the hole in the walls left by them and get it painted and we should be brand new.

I didn't want them as tenants but a person we knew vouched for them (he has since disappeared off the face of the planet!) and against my better judgement we let them have it.

I will be going with my gut feeling from here on in.

As you say it was a learning experience and there was no really serious damage done like the windows put in etc

Thanks so much for the replies. I think though we are definitely going to pursue it through the PRTB if nothing else but to see them face up to it -even if we never get a penny out of them

Petty, maybe, but at least we won't feel we did nothing and we tried.


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## Butter (23 Oct 2008)

Based on many stories here about the PTRB I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them to help you out.
Think of it like this - you have had a lucky escape. They were bad tenants and you are lucky that they went as quickly as they did. There are horror stories about tenants who stop paying rent for months and it takes ages for the PTRB to hear the case. Even if the judgement goes in the landlords favour there is no guarantee that the landlord gets their money.
Tenants like this do leave a bad taste in the mouth but my best advice is to forget it. As bulger has pointed out you are not really down that much money. With your next tenants make sure that the bills are transferred to their name and then the bill is not your responsibility. Go with your gut - if you feel there is something a bit dodgy about someone don't give them your property. Much better to wait for a few more weeks than end up with difficult tenants.
Also try to build up a reserve fund in case rent is late or not paid again. It does happen and you will have to pay the mortgage out of your own income. Better to have some reserves in place to cover that eventuality.


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## ImARebel (23 Oct 2008)

we did have reserves but when we got the new tenants in we put the excess off our own mortgage thinking we were fine in that we'd got the security deposit.

think i'll be holding a bit back next time. just in case.

thanks again. As you said it's that it leaves a bad taste in the mouth especially as your man was such a scumbag. You'd love to be the one to teach him a lesson

unfortunately it looks like I won't have the pleasure


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## DeeFox (23 Oct 2008)

Make sure to get references for the next tenants - both work (headed notepaper) and previous landlord references if possible.


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## S.L.F (23 Oct 2008)

When you get refs get a landline number not a mobile number.

Get an address for the ref as well.

Trust your instincts.

The way I normally let our flat is to give everybody a chance to look at it over 2 days then pick the person I want.

If by any chance your tenants mess the place up go back to the refs and tell them.


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## march (23 Oct 2008)

We had a similar experience and I agree with your decision to pursue through the PRTB.

The more cases they get like ours, the more pressure will be brought to bear on them to act in a fair way and to look at the landlords point of view.

It took us a month working flat out to restore our (1bed) property.

We are down 3k.

To all those people who think you should "put it down to experience" or "move on" or say "its only money" ask them to write you a cheque for the monies owing to you. 

Good luck with your case.


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## Bronte (24 Oct 2008)

You have actually been left off rather lightly - you are so luckly they have left, you need to really check out your tenant's references.  You should calculate your rental income on a 10 month basis not a 12 month basis to cover void periods.  Make sure you have receipts for the work you did on the apartment - the PRTB will need to see these.    Take your PRTB case as even though you may only get a paper judgement the name of the bad tenants will be on the PRTB site for other landlords to look at.


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## Towger (24 Oct 2008)

Bronte said:


> You have actually been left off rather lightly - you are so luckly they have left


 
ImARebel,

Yes you have been let off lightly. The vast majority of neo landlords have no idea of what can happen and the work involved in renting property. I laugh at some of the problems and complaints I see here. Worries about a leaky tap, damaged carpet, the cost of a dollop of plaster, a lick of paint, a new shower and replacement sink etc. My God having to clean the place up afterwards! The hard work! The reality is pulling out beds to find maggot infested piles of used tampons, and that is just a normal days work. The stress really happens when you get at call at 3AM, to find they burnt the whole building to the ground...


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## ImARebel (24 Oct 2008)

Yes I fully realise we have "got off lightly" and as I acknowledged the damamge done really wasn't very severe at all compared to some of the horror stories I have heard and read

As regards the references it's something we always insist on plus emplyment contracts/letters etc but as I said it was someone we knew that vouched for these people and that was the reason they got it. As I said previously I didn't want to rent to them I disliked your man intensely but the fact this other person reassured me, I skipped our normal procedures when vetting tenants and gave them apartment.

As I said a learning experience and it won't be happening again, even if the pope himself told me the person was sound. I'll be doing all my checks in the future, no matter what.

Thanks march I think we will definitely make a complaint to the PRTB as you said if nothing else we are registering them as bad tenants and even if the case doesn't go our way we feel we have at least tried.

we'll be back renting next week all going well.

Thanks again all for the advice. Much appreciated


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## Bronte (24 Oct 2008)

Towger said:


> ImARebel,
> 
> Yes you have been let off lightly. The vast majority of neo landlords have no idea of what can happen and the work involved in renting property. I laugh at some of the problems and complaints I see here. Worries about a leaky tap, damaged carpet, the cost of a dollop of plaster, a lick of paint, a new shower and replacement sink etc. My God having to clean the place up afterwards! The hard work! The reality is pulling out beds to find maggot infested piles of used tampons, and that is just a normal days work. The stress really happens when you get at call at 3AM, to find they burnt the whole building to the ground...


  That's really disgusting but that said I've with my sister packed 40 bin bags from my back garden after 2 months of tenant's from hell, and another time I couldn't face the maggots myself so paid a lad to do it for me.  Why can't people put out their rubbish - especially when it's paid for. Oh I hate maggots how did that female live in a place like that - yech - truly disgusting, at least if they burnt the place down you have the insurance so it's easier to deal with


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## bugler (24 Oct 2008)

> If by any chance your tenants mess the place up go back to the refs and tell them.



I'd be wary of doing any such thing. What is the point of this? 

If as a landlord I have a tenant for a year, and he pays the rent on time and keeps the place well, then I give him a good reference. Anyone checks it and I tell them my experience of them. 

What am I supposed to do when some random person claiming to be a landlord calls me up and tells me he trashed their property? Do I care? Am I going to adjust my reference based off this call? Is that fair? It has nothing to do with any previous landlord. 

In addition to this, you need to be careful over what you say. If someone finds out you've been contacting their references and saying things they claim as untrue, then the possibility of defamation arises.


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## Towger (24 Oct 2008)

Bronte said:


> Oh I hate maggots how did that female live in a place like that - yech - truly disgusting


 
Out of site, out of mind.  She would probably be morto if she remembered them.


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## S.L.F (24 Oct 2008)

bugler said:


> I'd be wary of doing any such thing. What is the point of this?
> 
> What am I supposed to do when some random person claiming to be a landlord calls me up and tells me he trashed their property? Do I care? Am I going to adjust my reference based off this call? Is that fair? It has nothing to do with any previous landlord.
> 
> In addition to this, you need to be careful over what you say. If someone finds out you've been contacting their references and saying things they claim as untrue, then the possibility of defamation arises.



I had 3 people recommend 2 Polish people (a couple) for my flat who then proceeded to wet the bed, broke or stole 50 % of the glasses, cups and plates, left holes in the walls, left filth everywhere in the flat and I mean everywhere. Never on time with the rent. 

Would you not go back to the people who recommended them to you and say something like those people you recommended did X Y Z.

I didn't last time but I'd do it if it happened again.

I believe there should be a bad tenants list for landlords to view before taking people into their properties.


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## bugler (30 Oct 2008)

S.L.F said:


> I had 3 people recommend 2 Polish people (a couple) for my flat who then proceeded to wet the bed, broke or stole 50 % of the glasses, cups and plates, left holes in the walls, left filth everywhere in the flat and I mean everywhere. Never on time with the rent.
> 
> Would you not go back to the people who recommended them to you and say something like those people you recommended did X Y Z.
> 
> ...



I'd say either those initial references were bogus or that couple went through a fairly drastic change of character between their previous tenancy and yours. Assuming they were genuine references, do you expect them to change their opinion of their ex-tenants based off your experiences rather than their own? It just isn't workable. 

A referee puts down what they know, what they experienced as a landlord, did *they* receive the rent on time and in full. It has nothing to do with a tenants subsequent behaviour in any other property belonging to any other landlord. *Your* experiences are what you put in *your* reference, which I'm guessing isn't forthcoming! I can understand your frustration if you feel misled, but if we assume the original referees were genuine and honest, no one has any business contacting them about their recommendations subsequent behaviour. They're not sponsoring them or claiming they'll be well behaved for life, "..and if not then get back to me". They call it like they see it.


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## S.L.F (30 Oct 2008)

bugler said:


> I'd say either those initial references were bogus or that couple went through a fairly drastic change of character between their previous tenancy and yours. Assuming they were genuine references, do you expect them to change their opinion of their ex-tenants based off your experiences rather than their own? It just isn't workable.
> 
> A referee puts down what they know, what they experienced as a landlord, did *they* receive the rent on time and in full. It has nothing to do with a tenants subsequent behaviour in any other property belonging to any other landlord. *Your* experiences are what you put in *your* reference, which I'm guessing isn't forthcoming! I can understand your frustration if you feel misled, but if we assume the original referees were genuine and honest, no one has any business contacting them about their recommendations subsequent behaviour. They're not sponsoring them or claiming they'll be well behaved for life, "..and if not then get back to me". They call it like they see it.



Yes but you are judging this to be a case where I contacted their previous landlords which I did not , I was in touch with their employers who gave glowing references.

Now if you gave a ref for someone and then the landlord came back to you a few months later and said the people who you recommended to them messed the place up would you recommend them again?

As I said I didn't go back to them and say they were wrong but if the situation came up again I would


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