# My experience with installing SEAI grant aided solar PV



## Laughahalla (10 May 2019)

Hi all,
Just said i'd put this up as it will be of interest to some. I won't have all the answers and my maths may be a bit dodgy but I will do my best to answer some questions you may have about the whole process.

I installed 4.2kw of Solar PV East /West array along with 4.8kwh of lithium batteries mid September last year (2018). Almost 8 months ago. My impressions to date is that I am very happy with with the purchase and so far have zero regrets about installing. My installation cost €6.2k this includes the B.E.R. This price is net of SEAI grant of €3800 so €10k gross

Over the past (almost) 8 months my electricity usage is 1096 kwh from the grid. In a full year i expect to use less than 1300kwh (hoping I can do 1200Kwh).
This is a substantial reduction (almost 2/3rds) on what my family normally consume per annum.
(user behaviour is important here, solar PV will not change poor use of generation)

Can you imagine if every roof in the country had solar PV and could reduce their consumption by 50%. As a country we would be way less reliant on foreign imports of oil and gas.

You will see below the meter reading I took on the day of install and a reading from May 5th.

In the past 226 days I've used 1096 units or 4.8 kwh per day on average. In the brighter spring summer months I find i'm using closer to 1kwh or less on average from the grid each day.

i'll report back when I have a full 12 months. Will i be able to do 1200 (100kwh per month on average) by September 15


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## Coldwarrior (10 May 2019)

Sounds good, I've been thinking of doing something like this for a while. 4.2kwh is a fair bit bigger than what seems to be the average in Ireland, is this on the roof or the ground? Did you have to get planning permission if it was on the roof?


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## jpd (10 May 2019)

I was wondering about the economic case for this so 
Capital Cost: € 6,000
Savings: 2,400 kWh per year (you said your use declined by almost 2/3rds to 1,300)
Cost per kWh: € 0.22 is my estimate of the cost of 1kWh including standing costs and PSO levy
Cost per kWh: € 0.20 is cost of 1 kWh on its own
Savings: € 500 per year
Payback: 12 years


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## Peanuts (10 May 2019)

How much are you saving per month?


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## Laughahalla (10 May 2019)

[QUOTE
Payback: 12 years[/QUOTE]
That payback is around my estimation too , however, the price of electricity increases by around 4%-5% per annum so that should help reduce the payback. Also, I have my eye on a cheap diverter on ebay.co.uk, I saw a solar iboost for less than £200 not so long ago, If I can get one for around that then i will go for it . I spend about 300 euro per annum on heating water. if I could divert my excess to my immersion I reckon I could save another 100 euro per year on that.


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## Laughahalla (10 May 2019)

Peanuts said:


> How much are you saving per month?


Hi Peanuts, Over the year it will save me approx. €500.  In winter(Nov, Dec, Jan) you produce very little but since March i've taken very little from the grid and expect to until we get to October. In summer you will produce excess. My east/west panels help balance the day as I mainly consume in the afternoon/evening. The battery also helps you to use nearly everything produced. Battery plus immersion hot water diverter would mean that you consume nearly everything you produce.


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## Laughahalla (10 May 2019)

Coldwarrior said:


> Sounds good, I've been thinking of doing something like this for a while. 4.2kwh is a fair bit bigger than what seems to be the average in Ireland, is this on the roof or the ground? Did you have to get planning permission if it was on the roof?





My house is east west with only one side of the roof visible to the street/neighbours. Planning is not an issue when it comes to qualifying for the grant payment. SEAI are working with planning to update the rules around array size on your roof. The original 12msq rule was for solar thermal (water) heating. At the time, the largest available grant from the SEAI was equal to 12sq Metres. Planning took direction the SEAI max grant size and not the other way around. I have been told by somebody in SEAI that this is in discussion and should be amended to match the new solar PV max grant size.

Now that Ireland has declared a climate emergency I think these things will be ironed out sooner rather than later.

As it stands today , the limit for planning purposes is 12sq metres or approx 2.1 kw of solar PV panels or 7*300w panels


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## Laughahalla (10 May 2019)

Took another reading today . 54981
That's 2 kwh used from the grid in 5 days.. That's doing plenty of clothes washing , dishwasher, cutting grass and every day normal stuff like using electric oven etc.

05/05/19 was 54979
10/05/19 is 54981.

That is impressive.


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## Alkers86 (14 May 2019)

Very informative, thanks.
Do you have a night meter?


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## Laughahalla (14 May 2019)

No , I just have a regular 24 hour meter.

Took another reading today.

Still at 54981 as of 14 May @ 5.28pm.

I've used 2kwh from the grid since May 5th.
(9 days)

Can you imagine if every roof had solar PV.
The country would really reduce it's dependency on imported gas and oil and really reduce our carbon footprint.


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## Alkers86 (15 May 2019)

Laughahalla said:


> No , I just have a regular 24 hour meter.


It is free to change to a night meter. It would be worth investigating in your circumstance, the daily rate typically increases by about 1c per unit and the night rate is about 1/3rd of the day rate. There are higher standing charges also but as your panels will mainly reduce day rates it might make sense in your case.


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## Leo (15 May 2019)

Laughahalla said:


> Can you imagine if every roof had solar PV.



Countries with high levels of PV are facing problems with grid management and the efficient use of generators.  The on-site battery storage model goes some way towards addressing this, but the current payback period factoring in battery replacement isn't short enough yet for PV to make sense in a lot of cases.


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## Laughahalla (15 May 2019)

From an environmental side of things , reducing reliance on importing and burning fossil fuels , cleaner air e.t.c. it makes sense. We should put a value on that.


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## noproblem (15 May 2019)

Laughahalla,
That's a great article, easy to understand and follow. Well done and the follow up pieces too.


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## moneymakeover (15 May 2019)

Couple questions

Your 4.8kw how many square metres? Did you cover entire roof?


And, battery, is that often fully charged? ie any wasted electricity?


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## Laughahalla (15 May 2019)

Hi moneymakeover, I have 6 panels on front of house (east facing)  and at the back i have 8  panels (west side) About 21sq metres in total. About 9 sqm is visible to the main road. The rest is not visible. My roof is large so they take up a small portion of the roof.

My batteries have been filled almost every day since the beginning of March and I expect them to be filled almost every day to the end of September. 

Since April I find that I am giving away electricity free to the grid ( about 300kwh so far this year) and this is sold to my neighbours. Unfortunately, I don't get paid for this. My neighbours pay an electricity company for electricity generated on my roof.

I plan to pick up a diverter which will put this excess into my hot water immersion so this should mean that very little is wasted.

I spend a lot on heating water each year so diverting excess electricity to my immersion will have the effect of reducing my gas bill.


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## moneymakeover (15 May 2019)

Did you use reputable company? Activ8?


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## Laughahalla (15 May 2019)

moneymakeover said:


> Did you use reputable company? Activ8?



I've never seen/heard somebody use reputable and the company you mentioned in the same sentence before 

I've had experience with their sales approach and boy was it an experience . I'll say no more.

I did use a reputable company. I checked three customer references before I went with the company I went with and also got quotes from a few companies. In the end I went with the company I felt were honest and had the patience for all my newbie questions and obviously Price came into it.


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## RedOnion (15 May 2019)

Laughahalla said:


> The country would really reduce it's dependency on imported gas and oil


Then it's just a dependency on imported solar panels. 

Were you happy with the company that designed / installed your system, and if so who was it?


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## Laughahalla (15 May 2019)

Hi Red Onion, I am very happy with the company that Installed my system. The owner and electrician used obviously work well together. They also had a good relationship with the SEAI Inspector which I found reassuring. 

I don't think I can name the company on the main page but I'm ok to answer PM's if that's allowed.


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## RedOnion (15 May 2019)

@Leo 
Any issues with Laughahalla providing name of their installer here?


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## Itchy (16 May 2019)

Laughahalla,

I have 8 solar thermal panels on my house, heating the water. Is it possible to modify this system into something that resembles your set up? Any good resources for research?

Thanks


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## RedOnion (16 May 2019)

@Laughahalla ,

I've found your posts on this very informative, and it's good to see your passion extend beyond bring debt free! 

I have a hundred other jobs to finish with house, but this is in the list, so it's started to get me thinking properly. Similar to you, I've a huge roof area, facing in all directions, so I want to plan it properly to optimize the benefits.


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## Laughahalla (16 May 2019)

@Itchy this would be beyond my expertise. 8  solar thermal  must be generating a lot of hot water. If you had roof or garden space you could add solar PV.


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## Leo (16 May 2019)

Laughahalla said:


> I don't think I can name the company on the main page but I'm ok to answer PM's if that's allowed.



Frequent Posters are welcome to recommend companies publicly here. Doing so via PM is not allowed, very low tolerance to that here due to abuse by as a number of companies in the past.


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## Leo (16 May 2019)

Itchy said:


> I have 8 solar thermal panels on my house, heating the water. Is it possible to modify this system into something that resembles your set up?



You need a completely different type of panel (photo voltaic versus evacuated tubes for water heating) to generate electricity. So you would need to install additional panels or replace all you have with PV and use the electricity generated by these  to heat the water instead.


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## Laughahalla (16 May 2019)

RedOnion said:


> Were you happy with the company that designed / installed your system, and if so who was it?



I'm very happy as you can probably tell from my enthusiasm about Solar PV. The company I used is called save me money wind and solar. Based in Dublin but they do work outside Dublin. I'm at the opposite side of the country to Dublin and everything went like clockwork with regards to being there when they said they would, being there at the same time as the SEAI Inspector e.t.c.
You will be able to Google their contact details or find them on FB or on the SEAI list of approved installers.


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## Laughahalla (16 May 2019)

Took another meter reading a few mins ago and I've used a grand total of 3kwh in total over the past 11 days. Before solar PV & battery I would have used about 10/11kwh per day from the grid.

At this rate I should end up using about 1200kwh from the grid in a full 12 months.

Usage over 8 months to date is
54,979 (May 16, 2019) - 53,885 (Sept 15, 2018)= 1094kwh

Also changed electricity provider today as  the have a €150 cash back offer( account credit)
Predict that the next 12 months electricity will cost approx €300 or less now when you factor in this cash back. Happy days.


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## Itchy (17 May 2019)

Leo said:


> You need a completely different type of panel (photo voltaic versus evacuated tubes for water heating) to generate electricity. So you would need to install additional panels or replace all you have with PV and use the electricity generated by these  to heat the water instead.



@Leo @Laughahalla sorry they are actually PV panels (not the tubes) they are feeding an box in the attic (is this the inverter?) and my understanding is that the electricity is heating the water. Sorry is that clear? 

I was thinking something like having the panels feed a battery that the house can draw on rather than just heating the water. I could possibly add more panels if necessary.


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## Laughahalla (17 May 2019)

@Itchy Hi, Yes, you could add a battery to this and even better news for you is that the SEAI will even give you €1000 towards it.

So you could set it up so the solar PV fills your battery and then when the battery is full, the excess will still divert to your hot water tank/Immersion.

On the roof you will have the PV panels, in the attic goes the inverter(can go somewhere eles too but most opt to have it out of sight)

A diverter diverts excess to the immersion. If your solar PV is heating your water then it sounds like you may have a diverter already.


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## Itchy (17 May 2019)

Ah great stuff, i'll look into that! I see an EV in my future too so this will useful. I had a quick look at seai.ie but it looks like the grant is only eligible for properties built before 2011, which is not applicable in my case.


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## Laughahalla (17 May 2019)

That's a pity. You are still going well with being able to divert to the immersion . The hot water tank is acting like a battery by storing excess generation.

Batteries seem to be reducing in price every year or two so it might be worthwhile checking it out down the road. Pylontech lithium battery costs about 1k for 2.4kwh. I have two of these.


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## Laughahalla (19 May 2019)

So today at one stage nearly hit maximum output in my 4.2kw PV East/West panels and hit 4.1kw 4,118 watts . Not bad for May.

Needless to say all the clothes and dishes are washed .

Another almost grid free day I expect.


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## thos (20 May 2019)

Which inverter have you got?
What's the app like for monitoring it, or is that screen what you need to use?


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## Laughahalla (20 May 2019)

Hi Thos, I have a Solis 5kw hybrid inverter.
The App is ok, basic enough. I didn't have a broadband connection in the house when I had the solar PV so didn't get the installer to set it up. I subsequently did get broadband so set it up myself. I can't seem to get it to show battery data but I'll figure that out..or maybe phone installer if it bothers me too much I've attached photos from the web page. I'll see about adding photos from the actual phone app later.


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## Palerider (30 May 2019)

Thanks for posting the company, I've sent them a message, Solar PV seems the way to go for my needs, thanks


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## mathepac (9 Jun 2019)

Todays's Sunday Times features a front-page article entitled "Green light to sell solar electricity back to the grid". Based on the old scheme and the rates that applied, domestic generators could earn €400 pa credit against grid costs. The scheme was  scrapped in 2012 by the FG government of Inda Kinney & Co, displaying their inimitable foresight. Richard Bruton is now taking the lead to no doubt "proactively" re-introduce it.

I can't post a link to the ST article as I don't subscribe to their digital edition.

[EDIT: referenced post deleted]


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## Palerider (9 Jun 2019)

All the solar pv providers seem to be flat out, I have met two reps so far, very unimpressed with both, my knowledge exceeded theirs and lack of follow up.

I am meeting another provider end of this week and based on our phone conversation he is clued in and is also the best priced using equipment I can research online and very happy to share all the specs by email.

This will be a booming business so care is required with whomever you choose to go with as the market seems hot.

I plan a 4.2 kWh system with a 5kwh battery ( one battery not two strung together which I didn't want ) and a diverter, based on my research I am going for a larger system than I need but my logic is to do this once and do it right, the grant is good but I wonder if you bought the kit separately and had it installed yourself ignoring the grant would it beat the quotes I got as it appears it could.


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## Susie2017 (9 Jun 2019)

Hi pale rider. Could you elaborate why you were unimpressed and what are the key features to look out for when choosing this system. I am looking to get PV installed. I have an installer in the Midlands who keeps ringing me every so often to see if I'm still interested. Last time he mentioned that excess electricity could go back to the grid but I would like a battery. I have heard that batteries wear out and become less efficient much like a mobile phone battery. Any brand suggested ?What key questions should I be asking ?


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## Palerider (10 Jun 2019)

Salesperson A had no knowledge if the immersion could be bypassed to operate from the grid if necessary ( it can ), no brand name of panel or hybrid battery, no detail how app worked and did not forward specs as promised by email, had me take a picture of the standard quote from his blurb on my phone rather than send me the exact quote by email, said he would forward specs by email, never arrived.

Salesperson B claimed to be an engineer but when I asked what efficiency the panels were he quoted me wattage, the most efficient are around 23% with average 20%, I wanted close to 20% as they do degrade, did not call back when he said he would, rushed discussions with do you know how busy I am mentality, I can't get back to everyone when I said I would.

Salesperson C, I meet him this week, very responsive to initial enquiry, very clued in and knowledgable on the phone, forwarded all specs to me by email which allows me do my homework on the kit.

The battery has a ten year guarantee but that's reassuring only if the company you choose is around a long time, this is new technology and will be popular with electrical technicians, know who you buy from.

As for key questions, do your homework, it's a big purchase but one thing Don't allow them drill holes in your roof tiles as suggested to me, that is not a good idea.

Of course to be efficient some adjustment will be required in the home so that you use appliances during the time you generate your own electricity, eg dryers used during the day rather than at night.


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## Leo (10 Jun 2019)

Palerider said:


> The battery has a ten year guarantee but that's reassuring only if the company you choose is around a long time,



Also check the details of that in terms of the guaranteed capacity over the years.


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## Laughahalla (10 Jun 2019)

Reading today June 10th  is 55006. Reading on May 10th was 54981. Used less than 1kwh of Electricity per day over the past month.


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## yildun (22 Jun 2019)

hi here is a solar PV quote i receive  It seems ok but what do you think

2kW Solar PV + hot water starts at about €3,500 after the grant.
4kW Solar PV + 2.4kWh Battery storage at about €4,500 after the grant.
6kW Solar PV + 4.8kWh Battery storage at about €6,500 after the grant.

This include VAT and Instalation

thanks


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## Palerider (23 Jun 2019)

Sounds very good,the sweet spot for grant is just over 4 kw in panels, what make and efficiency are the panels proposed, it seems your battery is  a little small for worthwhile storage, is there a diverter to the immersion in those prices.


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## VoiceofReason (26 Jun 2019)

Hi yildum 

Can you quote the company you got your quote from, they seem quite competitive relative to quotes I've received recently.

Thank you


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## thos (26 Jun 2019)

Quotes look competitive alright.
I talked to NextGen Power and also SaveMeMoney.ie and both got to the €10k mark for 5kw solar / 5kw battery, including VAT, but excluding grant (€3800)


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## yildun (27 Jun 2019)

Hi no diverter in the quote  I am not sure if I can name the company on the site however feel free to Pm me   I am waiting for  a survey  this week and will have more Info by Saturday and will post it here   I prefer the battery to the diverter  and both might be redundant if they start to pay for excess power fed back into the grid

Other quotes i received are in the 9k range and I find it odd that most of the quotes from SEAI approved firms are very similar 
thanks


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## VoiceofReason (27 Jun 2019)

Hi Yildum

Unfortunately when I Pm'd you my request was deleted as recommendations via PM are against the rules. Mod can you clarify if the company can be quoted by Yildum to assist others. Thank you


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## Leo (27 Jun 2019)

yildun said:


> I am not sure if I can name the company on the site however feel free to Pm me



Hi Yildun, we have a blanket ban on recommendations via PM as it has been abused to some posters significant cost in the past. 

You can name the company. We normally restrict that to Frequent Posters, but your history here suggests you didn't just come here to spam in favour of your own company.


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## yildun (27 Jun 2019)

Hi Sorry not sure what is going on  I have no interest or own any PV solar company just someone checking all the  quotes I got

I had the survey carried out today Thursday and the quote is a s follows

4500 incl Vat plus 3800 grant  total 8200  Paymnent is 4k up front and the rest
is on completion  they will help out with the grant forms   so after grant
you pay 4500e  and the BER cost  They charge 160.00 for BER or get your own local guy

For your 8200 you get the following

Solis 3.6 Inverter  with DPDT TPTT switches on the DC and AC side

WIFI

14 Peimar PV panels total 4KW

one 2.4KW pylon tech batt

Battery box with room for a second PT battery

Install and by a SEAI grant approved company

I will be geting a full and detailed quote from the company and will show the details here when it arrives
I found them very helpful during the survey  

 My roof is tiled  not Slate which may cost more

I think I can list the company on the site now  however I will just wait until I get the full quote  and put that up
on site I am not part of or attached to this company in any way

yildun


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## Palerider (27 Jun 2019)

14 panels of around 320w to bring it to to around 4.2kw on the roof, I won't be specific as to panel brand but they are 20% efficiency and not Chinese, 6.3 kWh battery as storage, diverter to immersion, €7800  net of grant of €3800, 

Usual guarantees and warranty.

In two minds about the storage battery, if a feed in tariff comes along it may look Like a silly add on.

Poor enough experience with the reps I met but that may be due to poor filtering on my part.

It's a lot of money, take your time and do research.


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## newtothis (27 Jun 2019)

Palerider said:


> In two minds about the storage battery, if a feed in tariff comes along it may look Like a silly add on.



I think it should stand or fall on its own merits. I don't think it would ever be considered a silly add on: (1) feed-in tariff may never happen and (2) even if it does, it could be very low.


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## Leo (28 Jun 2019)

newtothis said:


> I think it should stand or fall on its own merits. I don't think it would ever be considered a silly add on: (1) feed-in tariff may never happen and (2) even if it does, it could be very low.



On the flip side there is the added cost of the battery and replacement costs every 5-10 or whatever years depending on the cell quality.


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## Palerider (28 Jun 2019)

web search on the battery brings back prices of around €3200 less grant of €1000, it is a big add on that is slowly degrading with a 10000 charging life cycle, I agree on the replacement costs but expect battery prices to reduce and internal battery engineering to get much better.

I am going to stick it in and hope for the best, reality is I get almost zero on bank interest and this Install will give me an annual cash return on the basis of reduced home electricity costs, that's my logic.


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## Zenith63 (28 Jun 2019)

jpd said:


> I was wondering about the economic case for this so
> Capital Cost: € 6,000
> Savings: 2,400 kWh per year (you said your use declined by almost 2/3rds to 1,300)
> Cost per kWh: € 0.22 is my estimate of the cost of 1kWh including standing costs and PSO levy
> ...



If you factor in 4% per annum increasing electricity costs, but also 1% loss in efficiency of the panels per annum, you come to payback of about 10 years.  However I think this notion of a "payback period" can put people off unnecessarily.  It is certainly relevant, because if you're going to leave that house after 5 years, the increase in value of the property may not offset your costs yet.

However if you were to think of this as a 20 year (common expected life/warranty on PV) investment, your €6k investment would return €14k (of savings) in that period, so €8k "profit".  That's 133% return over 20 years, or the equivalent of putting the money in a bank account giving 4.5% interest that you don't get taxed on.  That kind of return is difficult/impossible to achieve elsewhere for the average punter, if you happen to have €6k you don't mind locking away in a low-risk long-term investment and are in a home you plan to stay in...

And that's not factoring in the increased value of your property by improving the BER, the good you're doing for the environment, the fact that you putting up solar panels will likely give your neighbours increased confidence to do so etc.


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## Palerider (28 Jun 2019)

Sums up my own thoughts exactly, the scheme is generous, just be very careful who you give your business too and negotiate hard with several providers.


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## Leo (28 Jun 2019)

Zenith63 said:


> And that's not factoring in the increased value of your property by improving the BER



I'm seeing little in the way of influence on pricing of solar / BER ratings in reality.


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## Palerider (28 Jun 2019)

The house is a B2 BER now, I will check back in after the new BER is completed.

I think the installation might improve desirability amongst buyers and if that happened then several interested parties would influence final price.

This is speculative as these new Solar PV  arrays of around 4Kw are not what is on the new houses, those are much smaller.


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## Leo (28 Jun 2019)

Palerider said:


> The house is a B2 BER now, I will check back in after the new BER is completed.



It'd be interesting to get a valuation done before and after to see if they attribute much value to it. 



Palerider said:


> I think the installation might improve desirability amongst buyers and if that happened then several interested parties would influence final price.



It may indeed play some role, but having been watching a section of the Dublin market quite closely for a while now, even significant differences in BER ratings aren't having much of an impact. As fuel prices rise and carbon taxes get loaded, I'd imagine it'll play a far more significant role, I'm just not seeing it yet.


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## Laughahalla (2 Jul 2019)

My house went from a D1 to a B3 after installing solar PV.


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## Minkydt (7 Jul 2019)

yildun said:


> hi here is a solar PV quote i receive  It seems ok but what do you think
> 
> 2kW Solar PV + hot water starts at about €3,500 after the grant.
> 4kW Solar PV + 2.4kWh Battery storage at about €4,500 after the grant.
> ...


Hi guys, 
something I received today-see link bellow  and questions on top of it:  Nobody mentioned maintenance cost. Is there any? May change whole return cost calculation.

[broken link removed]


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## Leo (8 Jul 2019)

Minkydt said:


> Hi guys,
> something I received today-see link bellow  and questions on top of it:  Nobody mentioned maintenance cost. Is there any? May change whole return cost calculation.
> 
> [broken link removed]



There will be maintenance and parts costs to be considered over the years. 

Also, I'd be wary of any company that pushes such limited time offers or other pressure sales techniques. Also, I'd worry about a company that claims the price is €3,315, but goes on to say you pay a 10% deposit of €331.50 followed by a final payment of €3,000...


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## Susie2017 (11 Sep 2019)

Palerider did you do your solar yet ? Just wondering how it worked out cost / set up wise and if you are happy with it.


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## Laughahalla (14 Sep 2019)

After one full year of solar our household has used just over 1200 kwhs. That's about a 60% reduction over our normal annual usage from the grid.

That's with a 4.2kw East/West solar array and 4.8kwh battery. E/w array produced 3200kwh for the year. A South facing array would produce more (closer to 4200kwh) but you would need to be able to use it, store it or sell it. ( Hopefully a feed in tariff will be announced soon)

I think that's a better return on your savings than holding money in a bank at close to 0%. Especially as electricity prices generally rise 3-4% per year.


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## Palerider (14 Sep 2019)

Susie2017 said:


> Palerider did you do your solar yet ? Just wondering how it worked out cost / set up wise and if you are happy with it.



I have a 4.55kw South-East/West array, a 6kw odd battery and a diverter.

Overall happy enough, the diverter has been heating the bath element, I need to change that to sink only as it suits us better, using the boost for 30 minutes is useless otherwise.

Bought €16.50 electricity during first 30 days, trying to be good and use as we produce, no high consuming items on late in the day and often get through the night on the battery storage.

Not watching what I send to the grid as I can’t do much about that.

Had to learn the best way to use the system myself, installer fitted and moved on to next job, 

Paid less than €8k after the grant, a lot of money but getting nothing in the Bank. Payback in monetary terms only is a long time.

Time will tell if this makes sense or was a daft idea.


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## yildun (15 Sep 2019)

HI went ahead and got the 4.2KW  setup with Battery and Solis Hybred inverter  No Diverter  and so far so good   
total cost after grant will be  4700e  It took the installers  about 10hrs to install on  a Bungalow roof including all electrics 
firemans  etc a very neat job and with information and advice every step of the way   At the moment i am using less than I generate 
so will look at an_ I booster _or other type of Diverter one  I can install myself or maybe extra pylontech battery at a later date

Something to be aware  is the size of the Solis inverter and the battery cage it takes up a lot of space  I have mine
in the utility room

I all ready see they advantages of the set up allthough the main disadvantage on a sunny day is watching all
that power go back to the grid .
others on this forum remarked If you had 5k  the Banks would give you SFA 
in interest on that amount so at todays rates it may be the better investment
for that 5k

yildun


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## Larrys (15 Sep 2019)

Really interesting posts many thanks. Had two visits from solar pv firms and pretty underwhelmed by advice. One consultant wouldn't even reveal their technology. The other was very pushy hard sell with prices over 10k (after grant) if we signed up there and then. 

We're planning to install pv as follows:
12 PV panels on south facing unshaded dormer bungalow in south Kilkenny with flat grey tiled roof.
Can you recommend as follows:
1. Are batteries worthwhile?
2. Is diverter to heating worthwhile?
3. Must we apply for planning permission? I checked this and believe that gt 7 panels needs planning permission but it's not entirely clear.
4. Do you find significant reduction in pv output on cloudy days?

Thanks so much. Its a big investment for us and trying to get it right isnt easy.

Larry


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## Alkers86 (16 Sep 2019)

Larrys said:


> Really interesting posts many thanks. Had two visits from solar pv firms and pretty underwhelmed by advice. One consultant wouldn't even reveal their technology. The other was very pushy hard sell with prices over 10k (after grant) if we signed up there and then.
> 
> We're planning to install pv as follows:
> 12 PV panels on south facing unshaded dormer bungalow in south Kilkenny with flat grey tiled roof.
> ...


My personal opinion:
1) small batteries are definitely worthwhile if going for the grant as they are about the same price as the €1k grant you get for them and they "unlock" further grants for arrays larger than 2.4kW.
2) In most cases I don't think the diverter makes sense but depends on many factors - your current hot water heating system, what time of days you use hot water, how much surplus electricity you generate, your current hot water cylinder etc.
3) Technically there are planning permisison limits as to how many panels you can put up before planning. There has been one person that I know of who had a fight with their council about exceeding this (and maybe even was on the front of their house) but the council was over-ruled by ABP. This practically over-rules the planning restriction. If your panels are at the front of the house and visible from the public road you might have some issue but otherwise I think you would be safe enough. You can always apply for retention permission after installation should there be any issues.
4) Can be as much as 50% but the winter months is the issue as opposed to the odd cloudy day.

You should be able to get a 3.75kW array with a battery for between €5k-6€k after grant. Anything more is madness. I have received a few quotes within those ballparks on a 2-storey house in Dublin so keep trying more companies, a bungalow should be a cheaper install.


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## yildun (17 Sep 2019)

HI I agree The battery  grant is worth it as it opens the way to a further grant and bigger KW systems it gets you a
hybrid  inverter   which can charge the battery and simultaneously manage inputs from both *solar* panels and a battery bank, charging batteries with either *solar* panels   also with the Pylontech  batteries you get a battery cage with space for more batteries so you can add on in
the future as required  Its pretty easy to add a battery to the system

If you are not using the power you generate  then  that unused power goes back to the Grid and m you loose it  unitill an if the powers that be start paying a wholesale price for that power_  it may_ be better to use a diverter to heat water  Diverters can also be added at a later date without the need for an electrican     Models Like the I Boost

Planning all I can say is check with the LocalCC

Hi On cloudy days it varies an the output can be  for me around .2KW  and thats when it is Light for longer that the winter days  I am happy i went for the 4.2KW sytem becasuse on a cloudy day the precentage of power it generate is 50 percent more than a 2KW system all things being equal 

I checked out a lot of companies on the SEAI list and the price varies from 8.5K to 10.2K  some with a hard sell for the same work and same Panels and Inverter   choose carefully who you get to install your system  

good luck


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## Larrys (18 Sep 2019)

That is so helpful - many thanks to you both for your replies. It is a big ticket item for us and we are trying to get it right and I don't know anyone who has installed the PV solution. My sister installed solar thermals and is underwhelmed by them.
Our panels are in the front of the house but not visible from the road (we are on the side of a hill - south facing unobstructed).  

Do you find are there any issues with maintenance - e.g. maintenance of the panels? Also, do you have any thoughts on fixings to your roof? do I need to get roof supports (I noticed in USA posts people having problems with panel weight).

Larry.


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## yildun (19 Sep 2019)

Hi The solar heating panel are NOT PV panels STs work by using heat exchange to warm your water tank  If you have ever left
a hose pipe out in your garden on a sunny day when u use it the first few seconds the water insideof  the coiled hose can be quite 
hot   That more or less is what the STs do       PVs generate  DC power which is converted by the Inverter to mains AC

I am told that rain helps clean however with Bird droppings  Dust etc   a soft cloth and soap and water will work  a bit like any
glass i would guess   Mine are on a bungalow so easy to get at

Re roof support   I dont know   mine is a standard  A frame The installer on his first visit will let you know  I do however know that slate roofs cost more  

I have included my current  usage below  U can monitor ur solis online     Its showing  2,8KW generation  300w being used by house  battery fully charged  and rest  going to the grid    ESB networks are doing well on a sunny thursday afternnon  If I dont set up a diverter   I will look at an IP wifi switch   and remote on   a heater or the Imersion  or something else My system is less than a month old so its a new learning curve

Good luck




 Generation
Production Power
2.80 kW
Daily Production
10.20kWh
Monthly Production
248.50kWh
Yearly Production
362.00kWh
Total Production
352.00kWh
 Consumption 
Consumption Power
301.00 W
Daily Consumption
9.20kWh
Monthly Consumption
168.40kWh
Yearly Consumption
270.00kWh
Total Consumption
280.00kWh
Grid-connected
Grid Power
2.28 kW
Daily Grid Feed-in
4.50kWh
Monthly Grid Feed-in
96.90kWh
Yearly Grid Feed-in
119.30kWh
Total Grid Feed-in
117.00kWh


Daily Electricity Purchasing
2.80kWh
Monthly Electricity Purchasing
23.00kWh
Yearly Electricity Purchasing
31.40kWh
Total Electricity Purchasing
34.00kWh
99%
Battery Power
0.00 W
Daily Charge
2.50kWh
Monthly Charge
52.10kWh
Annual Charge
83.80kWh
Total Charge
87.00kWh


Daily Discharge
3.10kWh
Monthly Discharge
57.80kWh
Annual Discharge
90.50kWh
Total Discharge
94.00kWh


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## Larrys (20 Sep 2019)

yildun said:


> Hi The solar heating panel are NOT PV panels STs work by using heat exchange to warm your water tank  If you have ever left
> a hose pipe out in your garden on a sunny day when u use it the first few seconds the water insideof  the coiled hose can be quite
> hot   That more or less is what the STs do       PVs generate  DC power which is converted by the Inverter to mains AC
> 
> ...


Thanks so much. V interesting to see how you're benefiting from the system.


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## Queenspawn (22 Oct 2019)

This is a great thread thank you. We have 6 panels already and considering adding to them. I spoke with a sales guy who
1. Informed me that we can only have a maximum of 20 because you can only feed so much back to the grid. I can’t find any collaborating evidence for this, has anyone heard of this upper limit? I am not limited by roof space so that's not it so I'm a tad skeptical.
2. He steered me away from a battery which he priced at €5k as he reckons, we'll use all we generate during the day (so kinda contradicts the feed-in comment above). Using solar to to charge an EV in the evening was part of our thinking hence the battery interest.


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## Laughahalla (22 Oct 2019)

He is probably referring to single phase and three phase when he says you cannot put up more than 20 panels.
Most houses in Ireland run on single phase. You are limited to producing 6kw of electricity on single phase. (20*300w panels)




__





						Connect a Micro-Generator
					





					www.esbnetworks.ie
				




With the anticipated feed in tariff (micro-generation bill) it may not make sense to buy a battery. I have a battery and it's great but if there had been a feed in tariff at the time I installed then I probably wouldn't go for a battery. i.e without a feed in tariff battery recomended but with a feed in tariff I wouldn't bother.

Coming down the road you should be able to use your car's battery to power your house . Nissan are trialing this in a couple of countries at the moment. Leaf to Grid or Leaf to home


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## Leo (22 Oct 2019)

Laughahalla said:


> With the anticipated feed in tariff (micro-generation bill) it may not make sense to buy a battery.



Dail questions earlier this year suggest they just keep kicking that particular decision down the road.


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## Queenspawn (5 Nov 2019)

Yes the 20 panel max is making more sense now, so be it.  The other thing is the company I'm on contact with said they are not willing to ADD to my system instead they will only install a new system leaving me with an additional inverter, is anyone familiar enough to offer a comment on this?


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## Frank (9 Nov 2019)

Can anyone recommenced a good company that isn't fully hard sell.

I had one guy in the house for 2 hours from active energy and just came across as a lot of baffle with BS and hard sell 
Put me right off to be honest.

East West roof, I have room for batteries and put in a good solar hot water cylinder a few years ago to future proof, thinking PV with a divert to the hot water and potential for an EV charge point again future proofing more than for now.

Current heating and HW is gas Electricity is not nightsaver either so this may help too.


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## Straight Gent (18 Nov 2019)

Laughahalla said:


> Hi Red Onion, I am very happy with the company that Installed my system. The owner and electrician used obviously work well together. They also had a good relationship with the SEAI Inspector which I found reassuring.
> 
> I don't think I can name the company on the main page but I'm ok to answer PM's if that's allowed.


Hi. Thanks for your great report. I am at the point of installing an almost identical system but am torn between suppliers. My first choice company is not responding to emails of calls so I must write them off. My second choice seems to have difficulty answering semi technical questions.  I am being quoted similar prices to yours but who can I depend on? I'm not sure if this site supports PMs as I don't see a link to that.


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## Leo (18 Nov 2019)

Straight Gent said:


> I'm not sure if this site supports PMs as I don't see a link to that.



PMs are disabled for new users. Recommendations aren't allowed via PM anyway, so if you're looking some, post publicly.


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## Palerider (18 Nov 2019)

Frank said:


> Can anyone recommenced a good company that isn't fully hard sell.
> 
> I had one guy in the house for 2 hours from active energy and just came across as a lot of baffle with BS and hard sell
> Put me right off to be honest.
> ...



Caldor Solar Ltd near Kilcock, knowledgable and exceptional installation, I'm South East/West two arrays,  ask for Eoin.


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## Laughahalla (21 Nov 2019)

Straight Gent said:


> Hi. Thanks for your great report. I am at the point of installing an almost identical system but am torn between suppliers. My first choice company is not responding to emails of calls so I must write them off. My second choice seems to have difficulty answering semi technical questions.  I am being quoted similar prices to yours but who can I depend on? I'm not sure if this site supports PMs as I don't see a link to that.


i used a company based in Dublin but work around the country, I'm based  in the mid west . They're called save me money wind and solar. They were mentioned earlier in the thread. I've mine installed about 14 months now and still think they're excellent.


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## Dreamon (9 Dec 2019)

yildun said:


> HI went ahead and got the 4.2KW  setup with Battery and Solis Hybred inverter  No Diverter  and so far so good
> total cost after grant will be  4700e  It took the installers  about 10hrs to install on  a Bungalow roof including all electrics
> firemans  etc a very neat job and with information and advice every step of the way   At the moment i am using less than I generate
> so will look at an_ I booster _or other type of Diverter one  I can install myself or maybe extra pylontech battery at a later date
> ...


Hi - which company did you go for in the end? Can't see it referred to in the thread. You got a similar-sized system to what I'm looking at but your pricing seems really very good in comparison to quotes I'm getting. Thanks in advance


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## IrishGunner (10 Feb 2020)

Hi

 Moving into new house soon in the Dublin area and interested in getting solar panels.

 Reading the Solar Energy Grant section on the Seai website and also the list of registered companies

 Have read all this thread & looking for 3 quotes and see what is best. What company did you use

 Also what should I be asking them or what questions could they have for me

 Complete Noobie on this so still in research mode

 Cheers


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## Zenith63 (10 Feb 2020)

I recently had the following installed in the Dublin area -
4.85kW of panels (14 panels in East/West config, two story and no scaffolding access to one side, so some extra work to install!)
5kW hybrid inverter
5.2kWh battery
MyEnergi EDDI (diverter to the immersion)
All associated wiring/safety gear
BER survey
€8k after grant (this was the old grant, so €3800)

There were three roofers onsite for a day, then three electricans for a day and finally the BER survey which takes the guy about 2 hours.  I went through NextGenPower, I found them good to deal with and would recommend.

Definitely worth shopping around for a couple of prices, there are one or two companies charging absolutely bonkers prices and using high-pressure sales tactics.

Some things to think about -

What size system is necessary for you.  I have two electric cars so will easily make use of this system, but you might not need as much
The panels are relatively cheap, generally it makes financial sense to stick as many up as you can while the roofers are there, within reason!
The focus should be on how you can maximise your self-consumption of power you generate.  So while a south-facing system will generate the absolute maximum number of kWh's per day, if the system is pumping out 5kW of power at midday while you only ever need 2kW and have no battery, it might make more sense to go with an East/West split, which will not get to that 5kW peak but will be generating earlier in the morning and later in the evening than a South facing equivalent
Batteries are still relatively expensive and in reality will not last forever.  I wanted to put in a larger one because I'm into technology/green-energy and return on investment was fairly low down my priority list, but you'll likely find that getting quite a small battery (which gets you the bigger grant) will have the system paid back sooner
While the diverter to your immersion sounds like a good idea, at €3-400 it could take quite a long time to get that money back, especially if you usually use gas to heat water which is very cheap.  Putting the excess power into your battery or electric car would be a better bet, or if you won't have too much excess maybe just let it go to the grid
Think about where you want the equipment to go and how that affects what cables will be required to the fusebox etc.  Mine all went in the attic, but I had the option of putting them outside in a large enclosure
At the moment there is no feed-in-tariff in Ireland, so any excess you send to the grid will be 'wasted' to you.  There's some talk of a FIT coming in the next year or two, but other countries have rolled theirs back so not something to bank on
Generally the panels cannot be generating power during a power outage, but any stored energy in the battery is usable via the 'Essential Loads' output from your inverter.  The installer won't tend to mention this, but you could get them to throw a double socket on this connection so you could use it if your power goes off
My BER went from C3 to B1 with the solar/battery/diverter and a few other small things (extra bit of attic insulation, LED lights, insulated attic door), you can decide if you should factor this into the value of having the system
I've really enjoyed keeping an eye on the console to see how much power I'm generating, how much is going into the battery etc.  This is definitely a fun techy gadget to have, if you're into that kind of thing 

Hope that helps.


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## losttheplot (29 Feb 2020)

Maybe a stupid question, I live in an area very susceptible to moss. Do the panels need to be cleaned or are they resistant to moss / algae / bird droppings?


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## Laughahalla (20 Mar 2020)

The rain keeps mine clean. Moss normally grows on north facing roof or a roof that gets little sun. If you were to get solar PV you more than likely will be putting the solar panels on south, east or west facing roof which should have very little moss growth.


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## RipVanRadio (15 Apr 2020)

It’s depressing that nearly every reply here is focused on money saving. We need to shift this discussion to CO2 reduction.
In my case I installed 14 (4.2kw) panels on a south facing roof, together with 4.8 kw battery storage. 
I got 60% of my electricity from the sun last year, when panels installed end of January. I expect that to increase this year.
As to behaviour, it’s difficult to retrain a wife to use the heavy consumers while the sun shines, but I think I’m making progress!
Aside from the money and the CO2 reduction , there is great satisfaction in using this technology.
I’m not sure if I’m allowed to mention the name of the company which did the installation, but I would recommend it highly.


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## Zenith63 (16 Apr 2020)

RipVanRadio said:


> It’s depressing that nearly every reply here is focused on money saving. We need to shift this discussion to CO2 reduction.


To be fair this is the ‘Ask about money’ site, I think it’s OK that the discussion here has more of a money focus to it. It irks me much more to see discussions on non-money focussed sites talking only about the cost and payback period and virtually ignoring the environmental benefits!

I also put in 14 panels and 4.8kWh and am loving seeing the amount of my electricity usage it is covering in this great weather! It would cover most of our driving in the EVs if it wasn’t for the fact we cannot drive anywhere with the lockdown...


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## Leo (16 Apr 2020)

RipVanRadio said:


> We need to shift this discussion to CO2 reduction.



As above, most people seeking advice here will have a focus on the financial aspect, and payback will be important as many people can't afford to spend thousands on a project ourely motivated by its green credentials. People who are primarily motivated by reducing their CO2 footprint will know there are low or no cost alternatives that will yield greater CO2 savings than a solar PV installation. 

Out of interest, do you know what the CO2 footprint of your installation is?



RipVanRadio said:


> I’m not sure if I’m allowed to mention the name of the company which did the installation, but I would recommend it highly.



New users are not allowed provide recommendations.


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## Laughahalla (16 Apr 2020)

Going by the description it sounds like the company that did mine. The company name was mentioned earlier in this thread.


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## EmmDee (17 Apr 2020)

RipVanRadio said:


> It’s depressing that nearly every reply here is focused on money saving. We need to shift this discussion to CO2 reduction.
> In my case I installed 14 (4.2kw) panels on a south facing roof, together with 4.8 kw battery storage.
> I got 60% of my electricity from the sun last year, when panels installed end of January. I expect that to increase this year.
> As to behaviour, it’s difficult to retrain a wife to use the heavy consumers while the sun shines, but I think I’m making progress!
> ...



I'm seriously considering doing a revamp for exactly this reason - cutting external electricity usage and not just as a financial decision. I'm following this thread for examples like yours - good to hear your experience.


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## Zenith63 (17 Apr 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> I recently had the following installed in the Dublin area -
> 4.85kW of panels (14 panels in East/West config, two story and no scaffolding access to one side, so some extra work to install!)
> 5kW hybrid inverter
> 5.2kWh battery
> ...



Just for anybody interested, here is the performance for yesterday (nice sunny day, but not height of summer yet of course) from the system above:

PV Generation Today 17.40kWh
Battery Throughput Today 12.80kWh
House Consumption Today 15.00kWh
Grid Import Today 2.90kWh
Grid Export Today 5.20kWh
CO Saved Today 0.017T

So without the solar the electricity would have cost about €2.55 for the day, with the solar it cost €0.49.  When we can start driving again the electric cars should soak up some of that electricity we ended up exporting to the grid, and we should produce a good bit more as we get further into the summer.


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## EmmDee (17 Apr 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> Just for anybody interested, here is the performance for yesterday (nice sunny day, but not height of summer yet of course) from the system above:
> 
> PV Generation Today 17.40kWh
> Battery Throughput Today 12.80kWh
> ...



Can I ask a question? I believe you said you had battery storage included. I'm guessing then that during the day you reach a stage where the battery is fully charged and you are generating excess - which goes back to the grid.

Do you think I should consider extra battery storage? Does your system look to use battery first and then switch to grid? So in the evenings are you running the battery down?

Thanks


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## Zenith63 (17 Apr 2020)

EmmDee said:


> Can I ask a question? I believe you said you had battery storage included. I'm guessing then that during the day you reach a stage where the battery is fully charged and you are generating excess - which goes back to the grid.
> 
> Do you think I should consider extra battery storage? Does your system look to use battery first and then switch to grid? So in the evenings are you running the battery down?


Yeah yesterday with there being so much sun the battery was actually at 100% charge by 2pm, it didn't start to really discharge until the sun had gone off the panels at around 7pm and managed to keep the house running until about 7am this morning.  But yes the battery is always there ready to provide power if required, to avoid importing from the grid.  So for example if you turn on the kettle and the oven and that requires 4kW of power but the solar is only generating 2kW, the battery will provide a further 2kW (assuming is has some charge) so you don't import anything from the grid.

I also had a hot water diverter (aka EDDI) installed.  So the flow form the solar is -
- Run the house
- Send excess into the battery until it is full
- Send excess into the immersion heater until the tank is full of hot water
- Send excess out to the grid (wasted basically)


From a pure economics point of view my understanding is that the batteries increase your payback time quite a bit.  And with the diverter to hot water the gas is so cheap the payback on it will also be quite long.  So if you were just looking to get rapid payback you might take the smallest battery just to get the battery grant and no hot water diverter.

However in my case the payback was just one of the reasons to do it, and not that high up on the list to be honest (don't tell the wife!) .  I love the techy/gadgetry of the batteries/diverter and seeing them all work together, the graphs are very cool, I check it out a couple of times a day.  I'm into being more green.  I like to enhance my home, so going from C3-B1 BER was nice.


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## Fidgety (17 Apr 2020)

Your enthusiasm is great. I have solar hot water for 15 years and get a kick out of having a shower powered by the sun so to speak. I’m now thinking of following your lead but need to learn more.


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## RipVanRadio (17 Apr 2020)

EmmDee said:


> I'm seriously considering doing a revamp for exactly this reason - cutting external electricity usage and not just as a financial decision. I'm following this thread for examples like yours - good to hear your experience.


EmmDee, you are so right. We must look beyond the purely financial calculations, although they have become much more persuasive than they were even a few years back. You will get an incredible satisfaction from looking at the statistics, such as Zenith63 has outlined above, and sunshine will lift your spirit more than ever before.
As Zenith63 has outlined, my system minimises units returned to the grid, by prioritising the house, the batteries and the water heating, in that order, before returning any surplus to the grid.
In my case I have the added bonus that my old mechanical meter has not yet been replaced with a ‘Smart’ one, so I’m getting full credit for units returned. They came out hotfoot in February last year to change the meter, but ran into some technical difficulty, and we haven’t heard from them since.
Many’s the day our meter has gone backwards!


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## RipVanRadio (17 Apr 2020)

Leo said:


> As above, most people seeking advice here will have a focus on the financial aspect, and payback will be important as many people can't afford to spend thousands on a project ourely motivated by its green credentials. People who are primarily motivated by reducing their CO2 footprint will know there are low or no cost alternatives that will yield greater CO2 savings than a solar PV installation.
> 
> Out of interest, do you know what the CO2 footprint of your installation is?
> 
> ...


Hi Leo. I do appreciate that payback is important, but it is not the only criterion. 
Could you please elaborate on the ‘low or no cost alternatives’?
Please also explain how I find out the ‘CO2 footprint ‘ of my installation.
Thanks
R


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## Leo (20 Apr 2020)

RipVanRadio said:


> Could you please elaborate on the ‘low or no cost alternatives’?



Walk/cycle instead of drive, choose local produce, reduce consumption of high-carbon foods, reject fast-fashion, invest in insulation, etc., etc..  Some of these will save significantly more CO2 than many Irish households installing a PV system if CO2 reduction is your goal. 



RipVanRadio said:


> Please also explain how I find out the ‘CO2 footprint ‘ of my installation.



I would have thought someone who called the focus on saving money 'depressing' and suggested we need to focus on CO2 reduction would have done their own homework.


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## Zenith63 (20 Apr 2020)

RipVanRadio said:


> Please also explain how I find out the ‘CO2 footprint ‘ of my installation.


Here's a UCD paper on the subject: https://researchrepository.ucd.ie/bitstream/10197/8490/1/sustainability-09-00302.pdf

The key bit to this discussion -
_Results show that life cycle GHG emissions [manufacture to disposal] are 69 g CO2-eq per kWh generated by the [solar] system, significantly lower than the current [Irish] electricity grid mix emissions of 469 g CO2-eq per kWh._

A very significant chunk of the CO2 emissions in the lifetime emissions calculation of solar panels is energy/electricity used during the manufacture.  So there's an interesting effect here, where the more solar panels you build and add to the grid (particuarly in China where most of these are made), the greener the next batch of panels you manufacture are.  The likes of


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## NR1028 (11 Nov 2020)

Hello, many thanks for the great information in this post. I'm currently gathering quotes for solar pv, a battery and an inverter. The roof can hold 18x340w panels and 1 quote includes a battery of 8.2wh. However as the battery is an expensive component does anyone have real world experience on how much of the battery gets charged during the winter months?

As both my wife and I work from home we can manage an even usage of electricity by sequential usage of appliances etc.during the day. In addition we have electric underfloor heating (downstairs) which is charged overnight using the night meter and night rate; this night meter could be an option to top up the battery during the winter months.


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## fidelcastro (11 Nov 2020)

I like the posts above by Zenith et al. Great to reduce fossil dependency and if this also means less fumbling in the greasy til  of the Saudi regime, so much the better... 
But.... 
Can anyone comment on the detrimental aspect of lithium battery manufacture in terms of environmental damage in poor regions of the world viz. Congo and reports of child labour etc.  Similar issue with EVs, are we exporting our problems to countries with less developed laws and protections. 

This is a big drawback for me and allows greenwashing of the issues. Its a pity selling to grid isn't allowed which would remove need for batteries.

Perhaps Leo is right. If we are concerned about the environment, getting off our a*ses to reduce car dependency and proper building regs with improved insulation,  eating local produce would be a good start.


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## fidelcastro (11 Nov 2020)

NR1028 said:


> Hello, many thanks for the great information in this post. I'm currently gathering quotes for solar pv, a battery and an inverter. The roof can hold 18x340w panels and 1 quote includes a battery of 8.2wh. However as the battery is an expensive component does anyone have real world experience on how much of the battery gets charged during the winter months?
> 
> As both my wife and I work from home we can manage an even usage of electricity by sequential usage of appliances etc.during the day. In addition we have electric underfloor heating (downstairs) which is charged overnight using the night meter and night rate; this night meter could be an option to top up the battery during the winter months.


Do you need planning for such an  extensive array?


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## Zenith63 (12 Nov 2020)

NR1028 said:


> Hello, many thanks for the great information in this post. I'm currently gathering quotes for solar pv, a battery and an inverter. The roof can hold 18x340w panels and 1 quote includes a battery of 8.2wh. However as the battery is an expensive component does anyone have real world experience on how much of the battery gets charged during the winter months?
> 
> As both my wife and I work from home we can manage an even usage of electricity by sequential usage of appliances etc.during the day. In addition we have electric underfloor heating (downstairs) which is charged overnight using the night meter and night rate; this night meter could be an option to top up the battery during the winter months.


From my experience the battery will get charged very little at all during the winter, few percent at best. FWIW I went with a 5kWh battery which is enough during the summer to get me through the night. From a purely financial perspective it only makes sense to get the smallest possible battery so you get the bigger grant. Personally I think the battery is great from a green/techy point of view and if I was doing it again I would go for the same 5kWh.

If you have an electric car the need for the battery is  further reduced as you can charge it when there is excess generation.

Doing it again I would have put up more panels, I installed 14 but probably could have got 18 up there similar to you. The panels are so cheap it makes sense to put them up while you have somebody on the roof.


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## Zenith63 (12 Nov 2020)

fidelcastro said:


> I like the posts above by Zenith et al. Great to reduce fossil dependency and if this also means less fumbling in the greasy til  of the Saudi regime, so much the better...
> But....
> Can anyone comment on the detrimental aspect of lithium battery manufacture in terms of environmental damage in poor regions of the world viz. Congo and reports of child labour etc.  Similar issue with EVs, are we exporting our problems to countries with less developed laws and protections.
> 
> ...


There are a number of threads already on AAM where the topic of cobalt mining has been discussed. I think it would be better to keep the discussion there, as it has tended to destroy previous threads, taking them way off topic into frankly conspiracy theory territory.

Example here, a 13 page thread that spends little time discussing the actual topic of the thread  - https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/electric-vehicles.212626


----------



## Zenith63 (12 Nov 2020)

fidelcastro said:


> Do you need planning for such an  extensive array?


This article covers some of the key points on planning permission for solar arrays - https://greennews.ie/landmark-planning-rooftop-solar/

The current planning rules say "The size of any such panel together with any other such panel previously placed on or within the said curtilage, shall not exceed 12 sq m or 50 per cent of the total roof area, whichever is the lesser;".  However the above article refers to a case where a lady was allowed to keep her 21 panel array and this case is now generally quoted as the landmark/precedent on this question.  My SEAI approved solar installer recommended well over the 12sqm and 50% and there were no questions asked when the solar grant was approved with this size listed.  It is also widely believe that this limit will be increased under the new government.

So strictly speaking the 18 panels mentioned here may not be exempt from planning permission, but it is unlikely to be challenged by anybody and if it is precedent is on your side.  If in doubt you can always just apply for permission.

Note there is also a limit to be classed as a microgenerator by the ESB of a 6kW system, worth watching out for.  I'm not sure how this limit is considered if for example you put in a 5kW inverter but overprovision say 7/8kW of panels to try and get more production during the winter.  Your system would be unable to generate more than 5kW of useable electricity, but not sure how it is assessed.


----------



## fidelcastro (12 Nov 2020)

Thank you Zenith for the information & for the link to the article.  It really would be great if a REFIT was brought in.
Fair dues to the plaintiff involved.  She has done the the State some service to quote someone, unlike the half-wits employed by the same State!!


----------



## NR1028 (13 Nov 2020)

Zenith63 said:


> From my experience the battery will get charged very little at all during the winter, few percent at best. FWIW I went with a 5kWh battery which is enough during the summer to get me through the night. From a purely financial perspective it only makes sense to get the smallest possible battery so you get the bigger grant. Personally I think the battery is great from a green/techy point of view and if I was doing it again I would go for the same 5kWh.
> 
> If you have an electric car the need for the battery is  further reduced as you can charge it when there is excess generation.
> 
> Doing it again I would have put up more panels, I installed 14 but probably could have got 18 up there similar to you. The panels are so cheap it makes sense to put them up while you have somebody on the roof.


Many thanks Zenith63, really helps with the decision.


----------



## presidenttttt (11 Aug 2021)

In my case this would definitely be financial investment, the Co2 reduction stuff is just a lovely bonus.

I spoke to someone who used to work in  solar panel installation this week (no longer there so not trying to sell anything).

He suggested many companies abuse the grant, and in many cases one is better off ignoring the grant. 

A number of people on the thread suggest installing as many panels as possible, he was more of the view to install what you need, pumping electricity into the grid for free is a total waste of investment, and still batteries drive up the costs and destroy the ROI.


----------



## Zenith63 (11 Aug 2021)

presidenttttt said:


> A number of people on the thread suggest installing as many panels as possible, he was more of the view to install what you need, pumping electricity into the grid for free is a total waste of investment


The reason we say as many as possible is that in the middle of summer you’ll find say 7-8 panels would cover most of your usage for the day, but in the depths of winter you’d need maybe 30 to cover your usage. 14-15 tends to be about the max most people can fit on their roof, so we say put up the max you can (meaning that 14-15).

Yes large batteries and EDDI do not make purely financial sense right now.


----------



## presidenttttt (11 Aug 2021)

Makes sense Zenith, I saw on boards many have suggested a smaller panel setup initially but then DIY adding of panels later, but I guess any saving in doing so is minimal and just hassle?


----------



## Zenith63 (11 Aug 2021)

presidenttttt said:


> Makes sense Zenith, I saw on boards many have suggested a smaller panel setup initially but then DIY adding of panels later, but I guess any saving in doing so is minimal and just hassle?


I guess it depends on where you're installing the panels and how into DIY or managing contractors you are.  I'm quite big into DIY but I definitely would not be heading onto my roof.  I do a bit of electrical work as well, but I wouldn't dream of messing around with the solar side of things, it can be pumping through 3-4kW during the summer, not something I want to take chances with.

So my view is find a solar company who are good to work with and negotiate the price down as hard as you can.  I cannot see the saving of doing it yourself offsetting the risk or hassle as you say, unless you're an electrician yourself...


----------



## presidenttttt (11 Aug 2021)

If a property has a heat pump does it warrant more kW? 

Initial comment from one installer prior to survey was "with a heat pump installed we would be looking at installing a 6.08kW solar PV array which is 16 x 380W Q-Cells solar PV panels. This accompanied with either 8.2kWh or 10.4kWh of battery storage depending on your overall requirements."


----------



## Alkers86 (12 Aug 2021)

presidenttttt said:


> If a property has a heat pump does it warrant more kW?
> 
> Initial comment from one installer prior to survey was "with a heat pump installed we would be looking at installing a 6.08kW solar PV array which is 16 x 380W Q-Cells solar PV panels. This accompanied with either 8.2kWh or 10.4kWh of battery storage depending on your overall requirements."


Do you have a breakdown or estimate of heat pump use annualy? I think though, that you'll find the heatpump will be in operation when the sun tends not to be providing much energy


----------



## jamesju (4 Nov 2021)

yildun said:


> hi here is a solar PV quote i receive  It seems ok but what do you think
> 
> 2kW Solar PV + hot water starts at about €3,500 after the grant.
> 4kW Solar PV + 2.4kWh Battery storage at about €4,500 after the grant.
> ...


Hi,
Can i get details for someone doing solar panel 4kw system


----------



## Jazz01 (4 Nov 2021)

Just FYI - Recently got a quote for 5.13kW, 13 panels roof installation, Inverter and 2x2.4kWh (4.8kWh) battery pack coming in at just over €12K.


----------



## Shirazman (4 Nov 2021)

fidelcastro said:


> This is a big drawback for me and allows greenwashing of the issues.  *Its a pity selling to grid isn't allowed which would remove need for batteries.*



On the RTE evening news today, Eamon Ryan strongly hinted that the arrangements for this would be in place in January.


----------



## Baby boomer (4 Nov 2021)

Jazz01 said:


> Just FYI - Recently got a quote for 5.13kW, 13 panels roof installation, Inverter and 2x2.4kWh (4.8kWh) battery pack coming in at just over €12K.


Before or after grant?


----------



## Zenith63 (5 Nov 2021)

Shirazman said:


> On the RTE evening news today, Eamon Ryan strongly hinted that the arrangements for this would be in place in January.


The recent budget added a €200 exemption on income earned from generation, so that would tie in with a feed in tariff being imminent.


----------



## Jazz01 (5 Nov 2021)

@Baby boomer


Baby boomer said:


> Before or after grant?


I as told by installer that I'm not eligible for the grant as the house is too new...


----------



## AJAM (5 Nov 2021)

We have had our South facing 3.5 KW solar array for a little over 1 year now. 
10 Panels, plus the Hot Water Diverter cost us 6,432 less the 1800 grant so a total of 4,632 euro.

I'm really really happy with the system. Last year we actually produced more electricity than we used. Panels produced 3517 KWh over the course of the year, but the house actually used 571 KWh less than that. I've also found the hot water diverter great. Last week was the first time since May that the gas had to kick in to heat the water.

Like others I've calculated that the payback period is 10-12 years depending on use. The more you use the lower the payback time, so if you had an electric car, or if prices continue to rise the payback period is shorter. And payback period ignores the fact that your house is worth more after you add solar panels. 

There is a university of Limerick study that show that property prices increase with better BER ratings. https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/...ices-postcodes-size-description-features-ber/
Our BER went from C1 to B1 with the addition of the panels. If I'm reading the study correctly that could translate into 4-5% increase in the value of the house, which would be more than the cost of the panels.
There are also quite a few US based studies that show the price of your house goes up when you add solar panels.


----------



## Baby boomer (5 Nov 2021)

Jazz01 said:


> @Baby boomer
> 
> I as told by installer that I'm not eligible for the grant as the house is too new...


Ah, I see.  In that case, it's a fairly reasonable quote. General wisdom seems to be that the panels will save you money over a reasonable time frame but the batteries have far lower payback.  Might be worth putting up the panels now and waiting for battery tech to improve.


----------



## Jazz01 (5 Nov 2021)

@Baby boomer - appreciate the follow up on that. I was thinking that the quote was high, but I guess the batteries are taking up a fair chunk of that cost...


----------



## Leo (5 Nov 2021)

AJAM said:


> There is a university of Limerick study that show that property prices increase with better BER ratings. https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2021/...ices-postcodes-size-description-features-ber/
> Our BER went from C1 to B1 with the addition of the panels. If I'm reading the study correctly that could translate into 4-5% increase in the value of the house, which would be more than the cost of the panels.


I haven't read that study in detail, but unless they are looking at price differences for identical properties with/without energy upgrades, then it's largely meaningless. Many of the higher rated properties on sale will be in newer developments which are usually more desirable. 

Regardless, an increase in the value of the home through energy investment only has material value if you are going to sell it, and then only if you are going to buy a house with a lower rating.


----------



## AJAM (5 Nov 2021)

Leo said:


> I haven't read that study in detail, but unless they are looking at price differences for identical properties with/without energy upgrades, then it's largely meaningless. Many of the higher rated properties on sale will be in newer developments which are usually more desirable.


The study does mention that it is comparing like for like properties "Our statistical model allows us to examine the impact of property type on price per square metre while keeping all property attributes and features the same."



Leo said:


> Regardless, an increase in the value of the home through energy investment only has material value if you are going to sell it, and then only if you are going to buy a house with a lower rating.


That's hilarious. You could equally say that the cash in your bank account has no material value, unless you withdraw it and then use it to buy something!

With solar panels, you have bought an asset, which prints *tax free* money (in the form of electricity bill savings), every month. Based on the last year, my internal rate of return is 6.4% tax free!  So it beats the pants off leaving it in a bank account.


----------



## AJAM (5 Nov 2021)

Another way to look at it is that my energy bills were 383 euro lower vs the previous year. 
So 383/4632 would be equivalent to an 8.3% simple interest return. Tax free. Compare that to the best interest rates in the banks at roughly 1% less DIRT at 33% and it's a no brainer.
I know not everyone has 4-5K spare, but if you do, financially it's a no brainer. Get the panels.


----------



## Leo (5 Nov 2021)

AJAM said:


> The study does mention that it is comparing like for like properties "Our statistical model allows us to examine the impact of property type on price per square metre while keeping all property attributes and features the same."


That is not comparing like for like. A 2015 built 3-bed semi-d will be a lot more desireable than a 1950's semi-d of the same area. 



AJAM said:


> That's hilarious. You could equally say that the cash in your bank account has no material value, unless you withdraw it and then use it to buy something!


That doesn't make any sense. The cash in your bank has a set value that slowly ebbs over time with inflation. You can easily exchange it for goods and services, or invest it to obtain a return. Bar filing property tax returns or purchasing rebuild insurance, the value of your home isn't something that has relevance in your day to day life until you are looking to sell it. 

Spending €5 or €10k on a solar installation may well add something to the value of your home, but it is a fraction of €5 or €10k. Spending that money with a view to increasing the value of your home is a folly.  A Which study in the UK a few years back showed twice as many estate agents said solar installation actually reduced the value of the home as those who said it increased it.



AJAM said:


> With solar panels, you have bought an asset, which prints *tax free* money (in the form of electricity bill savings), every month. Based on the last year, my internal rate of return is 6.4% tax free! So it beats the pants off leaving it in a bank account.


You have bought a depreciating asset that may over time pay for itself through savings. Of course that payback period is longer than the warranty period of the system components and most calculations assume zero maintenance costs. 

Doing most things with money beats leaving it in the bank. Investing it wisely will likely produce a much greater return than an investment in solar.


----------



## jpd (5 Nov 2021)

You have to be using electricity during daylight hours to make the savings


----------



## Leo (5 Nov 2021)

AJAM said:


> Another way to look at it is that my energy bills were 383 euro lower vs the previous year.
> So 383/4632 would be equivalent to an 8.3% simple interest return. Tax free. Compare that to the best interest rates in the banks at roughly 1% less DIRT at 33% and it's a no brainer.
> I know not everyone has 4-5K spare, but if you do, financially it's a no brainer. Get the panels.


At that rate, you're looking at 12 years just to recoup your investment, and that's not factoring in panel degradation (around 1% for high quality panels, greater for cheaper). 

Stick the €4,632 away at 1% and after the 12 years you'd be better off by almost €400 after DIRT. The S&P has returned an average ~11% over the past 40 years, invest there and you'll more than double your money after tax.


----------



## AJAM (5 Nov 2021)

Leo said:


> the value of your home isn't something that has relevance in your day to day life until you are looking to sell it.


I don't disagree with you there Leo, but your original point was that the increase in value on the property had no material value. That's simply not true. Your house is worth more money if it has solar panels, or has a higher BER rating. That is material.


Leo said:


> Spending that money with a view to increasing the value of your home is a folly.


Again I don't disagree with you there, I was simply pointing out the fact that payback period ignores the fact that upfront investment doesn't just disappear, it adds value to your house.



Leo said:


> Of course that payback period is longer than the warranty period of the system components and most calculations assume zero maintenance costs.


That's not true. My system has a 25 year warranty and a payback period of ~10 years. 



Leo said:


> Doing most things with money beats leaving it in the bank. Investing it wisely will likely produce a much greater return than an investment in solar.


I'm not aware of any investment that gives a 6.4% tax free return. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the stock market, but that is a much risker investment, not a guaranteed return (which solar panels are), and not tax free either (taxed at 33% CGT, 41% exit tax or 52% Dividend tax).


----------



## Thirsty (5 Nov 2021)

jpd said:


> You have to be using electricity during daylight hours to make the savings


Almost all houses are using some electricity during the day, wfh increases that load and I guess charging an EV will also.

I'm reading up on this with interest; in one sense I view it much like I view buying organic fruit / veg or free range chicken.  The return on investment isn't the major factor here.

It's not so much that I think organic veg is any better for me or that battery eggs will endanger my health but that I believe our food practices have to change and I'm willing to make that choice to be part (even if it's a small part) of that change.  

This is not an opportunity for the thread to head off into a discussion on factory farming, I'm just making the analogy, money isn't everything!


----------



## Thirsty (5 Nov 2021)

AJAM said:


> We have had our South facing 3.5 KW solar array for a little over 1 year now.
> 10 Panels, plus the Hot Water Diverter cost us 6,432 less the 1800 grant so a total of 4,632 euro.


@AJAM - were the panels installed on your roof?  Do you know of they can work around attic velux windows?


----------



## Zenith63 (5 Nov 2021)

AJAM said:


> I'm not aware of any investment that gives a 6.4% tax free return. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the stock market, but that is a much risker investment, not a guaranteed return (which solar panels are), and not tax free either (taxed at 33% CGT, 41% exit tax or 52% Dividend tax).


You're not really making 6.4% though, as Leo says solar panels are a depreciating asset.

For example at the end of 10 years 'investment' in solar panels you'll have made your €3000 (€300/annum) but the solar panels will be worth €0 (ie. your capital is gone).  Whereas put the money in a bank account, after 10 years you'll have a €4440 in cash (original €4k + €440 in interest (1% compounding)).  In my example the solar panels look like they're making €300 per annum (7.5%) but in reality your investment is losing ~2% per year (it's going from €4k down to €3k over 10 years).


All made up numbers for illustration, they'll last longer than 10 years, electricity prices will be constantly increasing due to the carbon tax etc.


----------



## AJAM (5 Nov 2021)

Thirsty said:


> @AJAM - were the panels installed on your roof?  Do you know of they can work around attic velux windows?


Yes, they went on the roof. I think they can work around velux windows but it will depend on how wide your panels are vs how wide the gap between the windows are.


----------



## Leo (5 Nov 2021)

AJAM said:


> I don't disagree with you there Leo, but your original point was that the increase in value on the property had no material value. That's simply not true. Your house is worth more money if it has solar panels, or has a higher BER rating. That is material.


It may make you feel better, but the value of any object you possess is really only of importance if you are looking to sell it. 



AJAM said:


> That's not true. My system has a 25 year warranty and a payback period of ~10 years.


You have a 25 year warranty on every single component? What system is it? What inverter, etc. 



AJAM said:


> I'm not aware of any investment that gives a 6.4% tax free return. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the stock market, but that is a much risker investment, not a guaranteed return (which solar panels are), and not tax free either (taxed at 33% CGT, 41% exit tax or 52% Dividend tax).


You need to look at how to work out an investment return. Until the breakeven point (12 years at your numbers), you are actually down. Your returns are negative up to that point when they reach zero.


----------



## AJAM (5 Nov 2021)

Zenith63 said:


> I think what Leo is getting at is that solar panels are a depreciating asset. At the end of 10 years 'investment' in solar panels you'll have made your €3000 (€300/annum) but the solar panels will be worth €0 (ie. your capital is gone). Whereas put the money in a bank account, after 10 years you'll have a €4440 in cash (original €4k + €440 in interest (1% compounding)).


But that's not correct. After 10 years my panels are still making me ~€383. They are guaranteed for 25 years. whatever small degradation in performance there is will be more than offset by the rise in the price of electricity. My BER is still B1 and the value of my house is still greater than it would be without solar panels.


----------



## Zenith63 (5 Nov 2021)

Thirsty said:


> @AJAM - were the panels installed on your roof?  Do you know of they can work around attic velux windows?


I have velux windows around mine, no issues, the installer just lays the panels/brackets out to suit.


----------



## AJAM (5 Nov 2021)

Leo said:


> You need to look at how to work out an investment return. Until the breakeven point (12 years at your numbers), you are actually down. Your returns are negative up to that point when they reach zero.


I have a diploma in finance. I know how to claculate an Internal Rate of Return. But for those of you who want to check my math, here are the figures.

IRR6.4%​0​-4632.53​1​576​2​383​3​383.369​4​383.369​5​383.369​6​383.369​7​383.369​8​383.369​9​383.369​10​383.369​11​383.369​12​383.369​13​383.369​14​383.369​15​383.369​16​383.369​17​383.369​18​383.369​19​383.369​20​383.369​21​383.369​22​383.369​

Calculated over 22 years. first year saving are 576, as thanks to covid, the ESB were not able to upgrade my meter for the first year, which meant I got paid for all the electricity that I exported to the grid that year.


----------



## Zenith63 (5 Nov 2021)

AJAM said:


> But that's not correct. After 10 years my panels are still making me ~€383. They are guaranteed for 25 years. whatever small degradation in performance there is will be more than offset by the rise in the price of electricity. My BER is still B1 and the value of my house is still greater than it would be without solar panels.


Yeah sorry I'm not wading into the BER/property value discussion.  I was just commenting on this "So 383/4632 would be equivalent to an 8.3% simple interest return.".  I don't have a diploma in finance or a grasp on what IRR even means, so you'll have to forgive me, but to use your numbers to make my example more meaningful -

If you assume the panels are producing nothing in 25 years time and their value is €0.  €383 savings per annum would get you to €9575 after 25 years, but the investment cost you €4632, so your profit/return is €4943 over 25 years.  The compound interest rate to achieve that is 3% or simple  rate 4.2%.  Right?

As I say not disputing the other arguments, I'm a big solar proponent, the way you calculated that 8.3% just didn't sit right with me .


----------



## Leo (5 Nov 2021)

AJAM said:


> I have a diploma in finance. I know how to claculate an Internal Rate of Return. But for those of you who want to check my math, here are the figures.


You've invested in a depreciating asset which in reality you would be unable to sell. 

Invest our €4632 in the S&P and after 12 years you'll have over €10k after tax. Your solar investment will just have covered the up front but will be effectively worthless.

You haven't said what system it is that is giving you a 25 year warranty on all components.


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## AJAM (5 Nov 2021)

The simple rate would be 9575/4632 which is 207% or 8.3% over 25 years. The compound rate is 2.9%
 But neither of these is appropriate for measuring this type of return.

The correct way to measure return for this type of investment is Internal rate of return. You can do that calculation yourself in excel the formula is IRR and the rate is 6.4% for the figures I outlined above.


----------



## AJAM (5 Nov 2021)

The value of an asset is the discounted rate of its future cash flows.
so in 12 years time, if the system is still printing 383 euro tax free, it is not "effectively worthless" it is still an asset.

And I can still realize it's value, either by selling the house or selling the panels on the 2nd hand market.


----------



## TheBig40 (5 Nov 2021)

On the opportunity cost of spending the 6k upfront I used a company and there business model is to have you pay monthly for the next 10 years. This is interest free and meat I could get mine installed and still have 6k (got 1.8 back for the grant after)
Extra power generated during the day is going to the immersion so using less gas and electric.
BER went for c1 to b2 also.


----------



## fidelcastro (5 Nov 2021)

jpd said:


> You have to be using electricity during daylight hours to make the savings


YES, by cooking....


----------



## jpd (6 Nov 2021)

You will hardly be cooking 8 hours a day?


----------



## Leo (8 Nov 2021)

AJAM said:


> And I can still realize it's value, either by selling the house or selling the panels on the 2nd hand market.


Can you show me anywhere in Ireland where I can sell a 12 year old solar system for what I paid for it?

Also, why can't you post your system components that all have a 25 year warranty?


----------



## Coldwarrior (8 Nov 2021)

TheBig40 said:


> On the opportunity cost of spending the 6k upfront I used a company and there business model is to have you pay monthly for the next 10 years. This is interest free and meat I could get mine installed and still have 6k (got 1.8 back for the grant after)
> Extra power generated during the day is going to the immersion so using less gas and electric.
> BER went for c1 to b2 also.


Which company was that?


----------



## TheBig40 (8 Nov 2021)

Coldwarrior said:


> Which company was that?


Mysolar.ie


----------



## Alkers86 (10 Nov 2021)

TheBig40 said:


> On the opportunity cost of spending the 6k upfront I used a company and there business model is to have you pay monthly for the next 10 years. This is interest free and meat I could get mine installed and still have 6k (got 1.8 back for the grant after)
> Extra power generated during the day is going to the immersion so using less gas and electric.
> BER went for c1 to b2 also.


We have a setup from the same company.

2.5 kWh array on the roof installed last December. 

We paid €40 per month for the first couple of months until the grant came through (€1,800 - goes to the installer) and we have been paying €20 per month since and will do so until 10 years is up (total cost to us €2,400).

To-date it's produced 2.58 MWh of electricity (circa €516 worth) versus us having paid out less than €300 so far.

I'm working from home full time so self-consumption is pretty good although I don't have a way to accurately measure this until we get a smart meter. I would estimate that for 6 months of the year, we are saving more than the €20 per month it is costing us.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney (10 Nov 2021)

Alkers86 said:


> We have a setup from the same company.
> 
> 2.5 kWh array on the roof installed last December.
> 
> ...


That's not a bad deal if it continues like that what I think would be another incentive would for households who have taken the leap get carbon credits for generation, that way the household could make another few bob, if anyone was €600 a year better off by installing a system it would be more attractive. 

The capital cost is still a hurdle for many unfortunately.


----------



## TheBig40 (10 Nov 2021)

Alkers86 said:


> We have a setup from the same company.
> 
> 2.5 kWh array on the roof installed last December.
> 
> ...


Be mindful of the smart meter just yet, the rates on offer are not yet competitive with the standard meter I did the maths and for now I think overall with our consumption it’s cheaper to stay with an non smart meter! AFAIK you can refuse them at the moment. If you look at boards.ie there is some proper rants about this on the renewables section.


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## Leo (11 Nov 2021)

TheBig40 said:


> Be mindful of the smart meter just yet, the rates on offer are not yet competitive with the standard meter I did the maths and for now I think overall with our consumption it’s cheaper to stay with an non smart meter! AFAIK you can refuse them at the moment. If you look at boards.ie there is some proper rants about this on the renewables section.


I don't believe you will be forced onto a 'smart' tariff just because you get the meter installed.


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## TheBig40 (11 Nov 2021)

Leo said:


> I don't believe you will be forced onto a 'smart' tariff just because you get the meter installed.


That could be the case but looking at bonkers and switcher you are asked if you have a smart meter and then you only get options of smart tariffs.


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## Leo (11 Nov 2021)

TheBig40 said:


> That could be the case but looking at bonkers and switcher you are asked if you have a smart meter and then you only get options of smart tariffs.


I just put in my details and I get the non-smart tariffs included in the results when I select smart meter.


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## Itchy (11 Nov 2021)

I have a smart meter, just switched to Bord Gais, wasn't required to go on a smart tariff.


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## losttheplot (11 Nov 2021)

Itchy said:


> I have a smart meter, just switched to Bord Gais, wasn't required to go on a smart tariff.


Is there a night rate tariff available with a smart meter?


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## jpd (11 Nov 2021)

Yes, or at least, there is if Bord Gais is your electricity supplier


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## Leo (11 Nov 2021)

losttheplot said:


> Is there a night rate tariff available with a smart meter?


The smart tariffs will have two or more rates, as more meters get rolled out the market will likely respond with more options, like a super low rate for a few hours overnight that would allow you charge an electric car, but expect higher charges during peak demand hours.


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## Itchy (12 Nov 2021)

losttheplot said:


> Is there a night rate tariff available with a smart meter?



There are three time periods: Night, Day ,Peak. I have the meter 8 months and found was usage was roughly 15%, 70%, 15% (have GFCH and PV). On that basis the smart tariffs were not attractive. It may have provided a benefit with the free Sat/Sun but not significant enough over the year to not go with the lowest rates (i.e. non-smart tarrif).


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## losttheplot (12 Nov 2021)

Itchy said:


> There are three time periods: Night, Day ,Peak. I have the meter 8 months and found was usage was roughly 15%, 70%, 15% (have GFCH and PV). On that basis the smart tariffs were not attractive. It may have provided a benefit with the free Sat/Sun but not significant enough over the year to not go with the lowest rates (i.e. non-smart tarrif).


I've seen people on EV forums not wanting to switch as the night rate didn't seem as attractive compared to the Day/Night meter.


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## AJAM (12 Nov 2021)

losttheplot said:


> I've seen people on EV forums not wanting to switch as the night rate didn't seem as attractive compared to the Day/Night meter.


I did a quick check on bonkes.ie and like that I saw that the night rate for the smart tariffs was nowhere as cheap as the night rate on the Day/Night meter. However, they were also offering free electricity on Saturdays. I would have thought that if you have an EV, and you can get away with charging once a week that having a free day would work nicely.


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## losttheplot (12 Nov 2021)

EVs with bigger batteries could take the once a week easily. Would really depend on usage. I'd imagine there's also a limit on the free day. Seems odd that the night rate is higher on the smart tariff.


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