# What to pay for carpentry work



## majee (4 Jul 2008)

Had a hungarian lad in doing some carpentry for me. It's very good work and all told he'll have done approx. 20 hours. Whats a fair price to give him? It's a foxer.


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## Protocol (4 Jul 2008)

20 hrs* 30 euro ph = 600 euro???

What is a foxer?


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## ClubMan (4 Jul 2008)

A _Hungarian _nixer maybe?


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## joker538 (4 Jul 2008)

If it is cash in hand about €20/hour would be a more than fair price.


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## eileen alana (4 Jul 2008)

Protocol said:


> What is a foxer?


 

A Cork [broken link removed]


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## pudzer (4 Jul 2008)

Hi Majee,
I recently paid a pretty good carpenter €35 cash per hour.  Thought it was expensive though.

Do you mind me asking what part of the country you're in? Could I share your carpenter? Looking for a good recommendation at a reasonable price at the moment. 

As a word of warning, I suggest that you always agree a price up front with your tradesman.  Also be very specific in what you want from him - otherwise price hikes, arguments and problems could ensue and ruin an otherwise beautiful relationship!

Pudzer


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## PADDYBOY99 (4 Jul 2008)

What did he charge you?


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## DavyJones (4 Jul 2008)

pudzer said:


> Hi Majee,
> I recently paid a pretty good carpenter €35 cash per hour.  Thought it was expensive though.
> 
> 
> Pudzer



That is a lot, am on the wrong trade. How many hours did he work for? I know that on site chippies take home no more than €550 a week. However your man may have had to pay tax and VAT out of that €35 an hour.


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## S.L.F (4 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> That is a lot, am on the wrong trade. How many hours did he work for? I know that on site chippies take home no more than €550 a week. However your man may have had to pay tax and VAT out of that €35 an hour.



€550 that's only €110 per day

I know labourers who get that

A man couldn't keep his tools up to scratch with such a low wage.

A good drill gun costs €250, chop saw €400.

................................

Regarding what the op should pay I think if its a nixer €400 would about right that's cash


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## DavyJones (4 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> €550 that's only €110 per day
> 
> I know labourers who get that
> 
> ...



Maddness I know. I know plumbers that take home €520 a week. It seems to be the average pay for trades here.


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## S.L.F (4 Jul 2008)

You couldn't buy a house on that kind of money.

What the gross pay would be do you know?


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## johnnyg (4 Jul 2008)

i would suggest 15 euros/hour as its a nixer and not his main job..

also i agree with pudzer about agreeing a price upfront for specific work, saves loads of hassel

I think the days of 35 euros plus/hour are gone and about time IMO, we have been held to ransom for too long


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## Guest117 (4 Jul 2008)

I built a house last year before the major downturn and good chippies were getting € 150 - 170 per day cash in hand

that is about € 20 per hour and is reasonable money when it is cash = € 800 take home for a 40 hour week


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## ClubMan (4 Jul 2008)

Hopefully none of the people here paying cash in hand will post elsewhere moaning about tax evasion or _Government _management of income and expenditure etc.


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

johnnyg said:


> i would suggest 15 euros/hour as its a nixer and not his main job..
> 
> also i agree with pudzer about agreeing a price upfront for specific work, saves loads of hassel
> 
> I think the days of 35 euros plus/hour are gone and about time IMO, we have been held to ransom for too long



There is nothing worse then to have a job price agreed when the punter decides to add bits onto the job. Which I have seen happen many times.

A lot of the guys I know price jobs both on price and by the day depending on what they make of the job and the punter.

Regarding €35 an hour I don't think that's unreasonable for a man who has 20 or so years of experience.
It really depends on the job you want done.

Before people start on me...............I only work on price


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## DavyJones (5 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> You couldn't buy a house on that kind of money.
> 
> What the gross pay would be do you know?



No idea, Only ever hire qualified people on short contracts.


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## eileen alana (5 Jul 2008)

badge55 said:


> I built a house last year before the major downturn and good chippies were getting € 150 - 170 per day cash in hand
> 
> that is about € 20 per hour and is reasonable money when it is cash = € 800 take home for a 40 hour week


 
Are these the same people who are now unemployed and presenting themselves at dole offices around the country, and wondering why they are not eligible to draw unemployment benefit?.


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

eileen alana said:


> Are these the same people who are now unemployed and presenting themselves at dole offices around the country, and wondering why they are not eligible to draw unemployment benefit?.



If most carpenters get about €520 per week after tax being legit.
Whereas if they dodge tax they can make up to and exceeding €800 per week ie €280 extra.

Unemployment benefit is less than €200 per week.

So its not rocket science to figure out its worth while financially to be a tax dodger.


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## Complainer (5 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> If most carpenters get about €520 per week after tax being legit.
> Whereas if they dodge tax they can make up to and exceeding €800 per week ie €280 extra.
> 
> Unemployment benefit is less than €200 per week.
> ...


Would the average tradesman build the risk of paying interest and penalties to Revenue when they get round to catching up with them into their cost-benefit analysis?


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## eileen alana (5 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> If most carpenters get about €520 per week after tax being legit.
> Whereas if they dodge tax they can make up to and exceeding €800 per week ie €280 extra.
> 
> Unemployment benefit is less than €200 per week.
> ...


 
All very well, apart from the legal and moral obligations, what if they have a wife as an adult dependent and some kids to support, unemployment benefit could easily amount to approx 350e. In addition tax dodgers may lose out on the contributory state pension as well as illness, dental, disability benefits etc etc. They also fail to gain the considerable tax relief available from contributing to private pensions
In addition, welfare staff and no doubt revenue will want to know what these people were doing all these x number of years when they weren't registered as unemployed.
They will instead have to go on strict means tested benefits in which case the gains made from their ill gotton ways will come back to bite them where it hurts.


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## S.L.F (5 Jul 2008)

Complainer said:


> Would the average tradesman build the risk of paying interest and penalties to Revenue when they get round to catching up with them into their cost-benefit analysis?



I think the way it works is they only get cash sometimes so they do pay tax just not enough.
I've heard stories of guys operating their lives around cash.
Very foolhardy IMO.



eileen alana said:


> All very well, apart from the legal and moral obligations, what if they have a wife as an adult dependent and some kids to support, unemployment benefit could easily amount to approx 350e. In addition tax dodgers may lose out on the contributory state pension as well as illness, dental, disability benefits etc etc. They also fail to gain the considerable tax relief available from contributing to private pensions
> In addition, welfare staff and no doubt revenue will want to know what these people were doing all these x number of years when they weren't registered as unemployed.
> They will instead have to go on strict means tested benefits in which case the gains made from their ill gotton ways will come back to bite them where it hurts.



As a tax payer I don't like the way they work, it doesn't make any sense to me why someone would try to defraud the country of taxes.
We all know how well spent our taxes are.
When I price jobs I include taxes I have to pay, they don't, so end up having cheaper quotes than me.
This of course annoys me. 
The other thing that annoys me on AAM is people talking about getting tradesmen to do jobs for cash.
I pay taxes they should too.


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## S.L.F (6 Jul 2008)

Something has been bothering me about this thread and prices for men working on site for €520 per week.

Those men are not self employed and are working for someone else who makes more on top of what they make so in essence their earn is about €35 or more.

So if someone like me, self empolyed, was to go to a house to do a job I should charge €35 per hour
If I charged by the day I'd expect almost €300 or more for my days work, this is not including vat of 13.5% which would bring a days work to €318


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## johnnyg (6 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> So if someone like me, self empolyed, was to go to a house to do a job I should charge €35 per hour
> If I charged by the day I'd expect almost €300 or more for my days work, this is not including vat of 13.5% which would bring a days work to €318


 
I'm sorry but that is a shocking price to ask for a days work...thats why the economy is in the state its in...people thinking that this is acceptable to pay someone for a days work, no matter if they have 20 years experience and especially if the work is being done by polish or other foreign nationationals, you know that they are more than likely being paid the min wage if they are lucky for the work, so people shouldn't be paying these prices. If you were to build a similar house in europe it would cost a fraction of the cost due to labour costs!!!!


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## eileen alana (6 Jul 2008)

johnnyg said:


> I'm sorry but that is a shocking price to ask for a days work...thats why the economy is in the state its in...people thinking that this is acceptable to pay someone for a days work, no matter if they have 20 years experience and especially if the work is being done by polish or other foreign nationationals, you know that they are more than likely being paid the min wage if they are lucky for the work, so people shouldn't be paying these prices. If you were to build a similar house in europe it would cost a fraction of the cost due to labour costs!!!!


 

Johnnyg -Well said, I think the days of these over inflated prices are well and truely over.


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## S.L.F (6 Jul 2008)

johnnyg said:


> I'm sorry but that is a shocking price to ask for a days work...thats why the economy is in the state its in...people thinking that this is acceptable to pay someone for a days work, no matter if they have 20 years experience and especially if the work is being done by polish or other foreign nationationals, you know that they are more than likely being paid the min wage if they are lucky for the work, so people shouldn't be paying these prices. If you were to build a similar house in europe it would cost a fraction of the cost due to labour costs!!!!




Hi johnnyg,

this is not eastern Europe its Ireland.

If you picked a bloke off the street and asked him to do my job he'd spend a week just looking at it trying to figure out what to do and then make a hash of it and that goes for a lot of carpenters too.

You are not paying for time on the job you are paying for experience and talent that enables someone like me to be able to do the job correctly and properly.

Plus I spend thousands on tools every year.

I don't get call backs to redo any of my jobs but I get call backs to do more work.


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## DavyJones (6 Jul 2008)

What people tend to forget is that tradespeople call to your door, If I asked  anybody on AAM to come to my house for a day and carry out what they do how much do you think I would be charged.
A percentage of the daily cost includes, motor insurance, motor tax, motor fuel, public/employers insurance. income tax, PRSI contribution.
These things cost money and the customer pays for it.

As S.L.F says, it is hard to compete with someone who doesn't pay tax or insurance, as the old saying goes, you get what you paid for.


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## S.L.F (6 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> What people tend to forget is that tradespeople call to your door, If I asked  anybody on AAM to come to my house for a day and carry out what they do how much do you think I would be charged.
> A percentage of the daily cost includes, motor insurance, motor tax, motor fuel, public/employers insurance. income tax, PRSI contribution.
> These things cost money and the customer pays for it.
> 
> As S.L.F says, it is hard to compete with someone who doesn't pay tax or insurance, as the old saying goes, you get what you paid for.



Not forgetting rent of a premises, van costs (wear and tear repairs), stationary, phones, advertising, safety gear, hire of equipment, accountants, solicitors, bad debts and there are other things, they were just off the top of my head.


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## DavyJones (6 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> Not forgetting rent of a premises, van costs (wear and tear repairs), stationary, phones, advertising, safety gear, hire of equipment, accountants, solicitors, bad debts and there are other things, they were just off the top of my head.



And while all the above are getting more expensive, business's have to follow. If prices were to drop, I for one would adjust my charge accordingly.


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## S.L.F (6 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> And while all the above are getting more expensive, business's have to follow. If prices were to drop, I for one would adjust my charge accordingly.



I have done so already


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## johnnyg (7 Jul 2008)

this is getting off the point of the OP post but that can be said for any job SFL/Davyjones. 
In my job i can't claim more for experience/travel/time to work out problem as when i contract for a job I'm competing from people out of college. 
If you are a ltd company or self employed you can claim milage expenses and buying of new equipment can be claimed back.

If this is a nixer/foxer then i think 10-15 euro's an hour as there is no PRSI/VAt being paid or any other costs as outline by the lads above.


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## majee (7 Jul 2008)

I paid the guy €500 in the end. 20 hours @ €20 euro Also  he bought some of the materials for me complete with receipts totalling €134.44. I think it was a fair price for the work which was excellent. We kinda know the guy and each time I asked him about the price he said he didn't really know. I think he was leaving it up to me TBH. I usually make sure of the price in advance but on this occasion it turned out well for both parties. I'd use him again. Great to get someone whose interested in the 'not-huge' jobs that does not try to quote you silly prices for it.


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## S.L.F (7 Jul 2008)

majee said:


> I paid the guy €500 in the end. 20 hours @ €20 euro Also  he bought some of the materials for me complete with receipts totalling €134.44. I think it was a fair price for the work which was excellent. We kinda know the guy and each time I asked him about the price he said he didn't really know. I think he was leaving it up to me TBH. I usually make sure of the price in advance but on this occasion it turned out well for both parties. I'd use him again. Great to get someone whose interested in the 'not-huge' jobs that does not try to quote you silly prices for it.



I'm glad you are happy with the work you got done



johnnyg said:


> this is getting off the point of the OP post but that can be said for any job SFL/Davyjones.
> In my job i can't claim more for experience/travel/time to work out problem as when i contract for a job I'm competing from people out of college.
> If you are a ltd company or self employed you can claim milage expenses and buying of new equipment can be claimed back.



Walk a mile in these shoes.


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## Dreamhouse (11 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> €550 that's only €110 per day
> 
> I know labourers who get that
> 
> ...


 

Decent Chopsaw - 1200, blade for it - 64 rough cut, 120 clean, router - over 400, bits - start from 50, btw. Decent startup gear for carpenter - 7 to 12K.
Depends on how qualified work needs to be done.

For 520/week you can get single operation  capable fella with no brains, drinking a few gallons of tea/day.
Any respectfull CARPENTER never go out for less than 250/day.

As for that hungarian boy, depends what he did in these 20h. If he managed to hang one door - 150 is more, than enough.

Always get job done on price. On some cases it could be daywork, but it has to be a plan, much to be done that day.


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## Dreamhouse (11 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> That is a lot, am on the wrong trade. How many hours did he work for? I know that on site chippies take home no more than €550 a week. However your man may have had to pay tax and VAT out of that €35 an hour.


 

I know a chippie, who had a wallplate, rafters, 3 velux installed, felted and battoned hipped roof on a sunroom in a day on his own. He built a 6.2m x 4m timberframe barrellboard cladded logcabin, t&g inside walls/ceilings in 3 weeks on his own, incl tiled roof, basework, cutom manufactured finnished details.

Do you think 550/week, or 110/day is enough for that amount work done?


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## DavyJones (11 Jul 2008)

Dreamhouse said:


> I know a chippie, who had a wallplate, rafters, 3 velux installed, felted and battoned hipped roof on a sunroom in a day on his own. He built a 6.2m x 4m timberframe barrellboard cladded logcabin, t&g inside walls/ceilings in 3 weeks on his own, incl tiled roof, basework, cutom manufactured finnished details.
> 
> Do you think 550/week, or 110/day is enough for that amount work done?




I was referring to tradespeople who are employed by construction firms and no, I don't think it's enough but thats the way it is. If you won't getout of bed for less than €250 a day, I expect you will be seeing a lot of your bedroom over the next 24 months.


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## bamboozle (11 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> I was referring to tradespeople who are employed by construction firms and no, I don't think it's enough but thats the way it is. If you won't getout of bed for less than €250 a day, I expect you will be seeing a lot of your bedroom over the next 24 months.


 
what u say there is very true, a lot of folk in certain trades will need to adjust their earning expectations to more realistic levels if they want to earn a living- harsh but true


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## galwaytt (11 Jul 2008)

well, nixer rates are only good for nixer jobs - i.e. they need to be discounted rates to allow for the fact that this is 'cream' for them.  You don't pay normal rates for nixers.

Mind you, official rates for carpenters around here now is 220/day.   Therefore, nixers are less.


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## Lak (11 Jul 2008)

Well just to add, as well as all the massive expenditure a qualifiedv legitimate tradesman has to pay out year in year out another consideration is the fact that all those office workers who complain of high rates charged enjoy the benefits of how many paid weeks per year in holidays???? not to mention all the sick pay they get when they throw their regular sickies, and rain does not stop a person operating a computerv as it does a blocklayer, roofer, plasterer etc. A tradesmen only earns on the days he works.


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## DavyJones (11 Jul 2008)

With regard to earlier posts, there is a big differance between a tradesperson getting a weekly wage/sick/holiday pay and a self employed tradesperson who should be on atleast twice what a employee is.

 If I was to pay a selfemployed tradesperson on a daily rate I would expect to pay in excess of €250 per day. 
If I was to pay a tradesperson who was in full time employment and worked for me at weekends or evenings, then I would expect to pay lower because overheads are reduced.


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## S.L.F (12 Jul 2008)

Hi Dreamhouse,

As you are no doubt aware its not always possible to judge how long a job will take.

There are always jobs that are awkward and are not straight forward.

I have had, in the past, people ask me to do a whole bunch of small jobs, in that circumstance its best to do a daily rate.

Now all my jobs are piece work.


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## Dreamhouse (12 Jul 2008)

Hi S.L.F.,

You right there, small stuff, snags and jobs for mad fussy and greedy customers go on daily rate. I noticed, if you ask for the day, they are not so fussy.

If you go on price, they will do everything, to find something for exuse not to pay. And you know, you can find something even at the brand new car in the showhouse, if you looking hard enough, especialy with the magnifying glass...

And the daily charge is def. in the cases, when you always are asked "while you there, would you mind to have a look at...."


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## S.L.F (12 Jul 2008)

Dreamhouse said:


> And the daily charge is def. in the cases, when you always are asked "while you there, would you mind to have a look at...."



Had one of them recently, asked me to price 2 wardrobes to be made the same as 2 other ones. Gave her a price for that.

Then afterwards on the same day she asked me to look at something else.
"*Can* you do this?", she asked me, "Yes", I said.
When I finished the wardrobes she told me she was not paying me till I finished all the work.
Asked her what she meant she included the other work as part of what I agreed.
I ended up having to explain to her that I *can* run up and down her garden naked screaming like a banshee the better question would be *will *I.

I've decided in future to write down what I've agreed to do with customers because I was one grumpy bear when I got home from that womans house.


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## Dreamhouse (13 Jul 2008)

To S.L.F.
Times have changed, S.L.F., you'll get more and more like that nice lady, mostly southside of Dub. 
And some of customers are thinking, that because of the slowdown at the construction sector, tradesman vans started to drive on pure water, their kids learned to eat grass and fairys started to pay their morgages.

You could ask that lady, what would hapen when on friday she would be tould she would get her wages for last week after she will do the weekend for free?


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## Simeon (14 Jul 2008)

Doing up an old house in Kerry and the chippy charges E250 for a nine hour day. He's a good worker and I'm happy to pay him that. Normally I'd ask for a price but the nature of the job rules that out.


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## ubiquitous (14 Jul 2008)

johnnyg said:


> I'm sorry but that is a shocking price to ask for a days work...thats why the economy is in the state its in...people thinking that this is acceptable to pay someone for a days work, no matter if they have 20 years experience and especially if the work is being done by polish or other foreign nationationals, you know that they are more than likely being paid the min wage if they are lucky for the work, so people shouldn't be paying these prices. If you were to build a similar house in europe it would cost a fraction of the cost due to labour costs!!!!



I think your idea of carpentry rates are hopelessly unrealistic. Ten years ago, the carpenter whom we used to build our house was charging €300 per day, plus VAT.  If you find a competent and reputable carpenter who is willing to work for the minimum wage of €10+- per hour, then good luck to you, but in my opinion that is an exploitation wage for a skilled worker.


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## MrMan (15 Jul 2008)

I can understand the trades lads here trying to defend such high costs and even 'poor-mouthing' a bit, but i've long since wondered why every profession from EA to banks to FF are 'blamed' for the property boom when in fact the massive increases in labour costs year on year played no small part. i have friends (who until recently) were getting €1200 gross per week (chippies). As regards wet days I know builders that have had to pay €250 per day for even without getting a return for work. With regard to paying for talent and skill there are a lot of decent lads working but there is more than enough poor workmanship on display across the country to question the whole 'you get what you pay for'. tools are expensive and they make the work a hell of alot easier too. There is still hard work and bad conditions but the expensive tools chosen are there to make there load easier and shouldn't be a consideration when costing work.


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## johnnyg (15 Jul 2008)

what about employed people who are skilled and spent 5-6 years in college, they only start out on 10-15 euro's an hour, thay don't get compensated for millage costs, they're not able to claim back money for the clothes they have to ware, a good siut/tie/shoes costs 400-500 euros for a modest one, you would need 5-8 of these a year and the list goes on so i think there is an element of poor mouthing going. The plasterer down from me is driving a 08 landcrusier, another buddie (electrician) is driving 08 audi coupe, so i think its there life style they are trying to maintain..


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## S.L.F (15 Jul 2008)

MrMan said:


> With regard to paying for talent and skill there are a lot of decent lads working but there is more than enough poor workmanship on display across the country to question the whole 'you get what you pay for'.



This is why all good tradesmen and craftsmen will tell you to ask for references. Speaking for myself I always ask my previous customers if its ok to tell people about the job I've done for them.



MrMan said:


> tools are expensive and they make the work a hell of alot easier too. There is still hard work and bad conditions but the expensive tools chosen are there to make there load easier and shouldn't be a consideration when costing work.



Your argument is flawed in that a fool with a good tool is still just a fool.
Good tools don't make a good tradesman.
The main reason we buy expensive tools is because they last longer.



johnnyg said:


> what about employed people who are skilled and spent 5-6 years in college, they only start out on 10-15 euro's an hour, thay don't get compensated for millage costs, they're not able to claim back money for the clothes they have to ware, a good siut/tie/shoes costs 400-500 euros for a modest one, you would need 5-8 of these a year and the list goes on.



What about them?
This thread is about what to pay for carpentry not what some 'suit' gets or doesn't get for being a desk jockey or what ever.
If you're jealous take up a trade and live in the real world.
I have often worked till 2 in the morning getting things done I don't know any 'suits' who do that!



johnnyg said:


> The plasterer down from me is driving a 08 landcrusier, another buddie (electrician) is driving 08 audi coupe, so i think its there life style they are trying to maintain..



Fair play to them it shows they have worked hard.

I imagine they will have to keep on working hard to pay off the loans.


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## johnnyg (15 Jul 2008)

working hard, at 300 a day no wonder they can afford them...very few carpenters work till 2 am...if any or a very odd case...i'm building at the moment and to get people after hours is a no full stop....a pity i didn't meet you for a quote, i'd be finished months ago!!!!

I don't wear a suit for my work, but most of my friends do and can barely make ends meat, if they applied you theory based on experience and good workmanship, and were rewarded on merit they'd be millionaires..

I would love to know what area you work in, i have a picture of you working on homes that are worth millions and 300/day is only pittance to the owners and maybe you get work based on you looks rather than you ability with your tools..LOL


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## MandaC (15 Jul 2008)

I am not a millionaire (far from it) and I would have no problem paying any self employed tradesman €250/€300 for a full days work, once the standard was good.


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## S.L.F (15 Jul 2008)

johnnyg said:


> I'm competing from people out of college.



I can just see the advert for your job.

*No experience required

*but seriously anybody I know who has left college has to be trained into the real world.

I know people who have studied English or the Classics who walk into good paying jobs, so going to college cuts no ice with me.



johnnyg said:


> I don't wear a suit for my work, but most of my friends do and can barely make ends meat, if they applied you theory based on experience and good workmanship, and were rewarded on merit they'd be millionaires..



I don't know any 'suit' who works with his hands so workmanship doesn't apply to 'suits'.



johnnyg said:


> I would love to know what area you work in, i have a picture of you working on homes that are worth millions and 300/day is only pittance to the owners and maybe you get work based on you looks rather than you ability with your tools..LOL



Funny I have a picture of you as a spotty faced kid who has just left school or a little old granny sitting at home with nothing better to do than troll on AAM.

Your total ignorance regarding trades astounds me, who on earth would employ someone on the basis of their looks, is that the way you employ the lads on your site, no wonder you are months on the site.



MandaC said:


> I am not a millionaire (far from it) and I would have no problem paying any self employed tradesman €250/€300 for a full days work, once the standard was good.



As I have said before to everybody get references for anybody you plan to get and check them.

Always get a landline as a contact No and an address.
Chancers run a mile when you ask for those.


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## DavyJones (15 Jul 2008)

johnnyg said:


> working hard, at 300 a day no wonder they can afford them...very few carpenters work till 2 am...if any or a very odd case...i'm building at the moment and to get people after hours is a no full stop....a pity i didn't meet you for a quote, i'd be finished months ago!!!!
> 
> I don't wear a suit for my work, but most of my friends do and can barely make ends meat, if they applied you theory based on experience and good workmanship, and were rewarded on merit they'd be millionaires..
> 
> I would love to know what area you work in, i have a picture of you working on homes that are worth millions and 300/day is only pittance to the owners and maybe you get work based on you looks rather than you ability with your tools..LOL



I really think you are missing something here. You are an employee, working for an employer. you get sick/holiday pay and a certain amount of protection, e.g union's, labour law etc.

S.L.F to use as an example is self employed/employer, Has to pay a tax bill, PRSI and business overheads. Most self employed people do their own VAT returns, price jobs, secure more work, advertise etc. The person doesn't rely on the "boss" to make sure the contracts keep coming. If you were ever self employed you would know there is always work to be done.

If your not happy with your work place, leave and set up your own business, then you'll know the craic.


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## S.L.F (15 Jul 2008)

Davey some people will never get it until they do it for themselves.

Until then its like trying to teach algebra to a chicken.


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## MrMan (16 Jul 2008)

> This is why all good tradesmen and craftsmen will tell you to ask for references. Speaking for myself I always ask my previous customers if its ok to tell people about the job I've done for them.


I'd say that your in the minority of those who have never done bad work but there have been so many jumping into the trades to jump on the gravy train you must accept that quite a lot of those are not worth the money they charge.



> Your argument is flawed in that a fool with a good tool is still just a fool.
> Good tools don't make a good tradesman.
> The main reason we buy expensive tools is because they last longer.



How is that a flawed argument? You buy expensive tools so they last longer, like someone else said I buy plenty of suits per annum but i don't take it into consideration when pricing work. Something else was also said about the fact that you go to clients homes, well that saves you office costs etc.



> What about them?
> This thread is about what to pay for carpentry not what some 'suit' gets or doesn't get for being a desk jockey or what ever.
> If you're jealous take up a trade and live in the real world.
> I have often worked till 2 in the morning getting things done I don't know any 'suits' who do that!


I think you need to enter the real world if you think that 'suits' are exempt from hard work or long hours.



> Fair play to them it shows they have worked hard.
> 
> I imagine they will have to keep on working hard to pay off the loans.


I think the problem is they haven't quite worked that hard for such rich sums. There are those that have put in the hours and made alot of money and fair play but then you have guys like my friend who could turn up monday to friday finish at half 4 complain to unions over the slightest thing and walk away with €1200 gross per week.



> I don't know any 'suit' who works with his hands so workmanship doesn't apply to 'suits'.


Designers, architects etc


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## S.L.F (16 Jul 2008)

MrMan said:


> I'd say that your in the minority of those who have never done bad work but there have been so many jumping into the trades to jump on the gravy train you must accept that quite a lot of those are not worth the money they charge.



Thank you MrMan for that.

I know there are loads of young guys coming up but it takes time for people to learn the trades, 10 years ago the skill level was higher.
I won't dispute that there are people who are earning more than they should but this does not just apply to the trades.



MrMan said:


> How is that a flawed argument? You buy expensive tools so they last longer, like someone else said I buy plenty of suits per annum but i don't take it into consideration when pricing work. Something else was also said about the fact that you go to clients homes, well that saves you office costs etc.



I really wish you would think before you post I don't work in an office.

Also the cost of tools was just one of the things that we spend money on.
Since you mention suits I also have to buy work wear regularly.



MrMan said:


> I think you need to enter the real world if you think that 'suits' are exempt from hard work or long hours.



I never said they don't work hard or work long hours.

I think EA's have had a great streak of fortune over the last 10 years, I don't believe they have worked that hard for their riches.



MrMan said:


> I think the problem is they haven't quite worked that hard for such rich sums. There are those that have put in the hours and made alot of money and fair play but then you have guys like my friend who could turn up monday to friday finish at half 4 complain to unions over the slightest thing and walk away with €1200 gross per week.



Are you talking about all tradesmen or just your friend,



MrMan said:


> Designers, architects etc



Fair enough, I take what I said back.
There is skill and workmanship that goes into drawings and design
but they are not tradesmen


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## MrMan (17 Jul 2008)

> I won't dispute that there are people who are earning more than they should but this does not just apply to the trades.



We agree on that then, I think the levels of pay going out to 'average' tradesmen have at times been far too high, if you have a 'master craftsman' or the like then they would definitely be worth the pay.



> I really wish you would think before you post I don't work in an office.
> 
> Also the cost of tools was just one of the things that we spend money on.
> Since you mention suits I also have to buy work wear regularly.


I just had a quick think there so I think I'm ready to continue posting now. I was just making comparables, sure tradesmen have a multitude of equipment that they need for work and it costs money, but good suits, laptops and other equipment are often needed for other occupations that can mount up to quite an expense on an annual basis.



> I think EA's have had a great streak of fortune over the last 10 years, I don't believe they have worked that hard for their riches.


Agreed, and the top men made a fortune, but the employees never hit those heights, whereas the trades made a sinificant leap in wages across the board.



> Are you talking about all tradesmen or just your friend,


I can hardly talk for all tradesmen as you can't, but he worked for a large company and would of been one of many on that wage.


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## shnaek (17 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> There is nothing worse then to have a job price agreed when the punter decides to add bits onto the job. Which I have seen happen many times.


This happens in every line of work though. I work in IT and clients are forever adding on things they want done. If they can be done handy, then we don't charge. If they are time consuming, then we charge extra. I'm sure people in any trade use the same system. The client rarely knows what they want before you are half way through the job!

And surely the market decides what price to pay for a job? If skills are in scarce supply and high demand, then a premium will be paid. Supply and demand determines wages in all but the protected sectors of the economy.


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## S.L.F (17 Jul 2008)

MrMan said:


> We agree on that then, I think the levels of pay going out to 'average' tradesmen have at times been far too high, if you have a 'master craftsman' or the like then they would definitely be worth the pay.



How do you know who is a master craftsman and who is an average tradesman?



MrMan said:


> I just had a quick think there so I think I'm ready to continue posting now.







MrMan said:


> I was just making comparables, sure tradesmen have a multitude of equipment that they need for work and it costs money, but good suits, laptops and other equipment are often needed for other occupations that can mount up to quite an expense on an annual basis.



I don't doubt that for 1 second



MrMan said:


> Agreed, and the top men made a fortune, but the employees never hit those heights, whereas the trades made a sinificant leap in wages across the board.



This applies to many different employees not just trades.



MrMan said:


> I can hardly talk for all tradesmen as you can't, but he worked for a large company and would of been one of many on that wage.



We don't know what he actually did for a living so we can't compare it to anything.


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## S.L.F (17 Jul 2008)

shnaek said:


> And surely the market decides what price to pay for a job? If skills are in scarce supply and high demand, then a premium will be paid. Supply and demand determines wages in all but the protected sectors of the economy.



The only market I know is where I'm standing in someones kitchen and talking about what needs doing and telling them what its going to cost.


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## shnaek (18 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> The only market I know is where I'm standing in someones kitchen and talking about what needs doing and telling them what its going to cost.


Exactly. And they can tell you yes or no. Three cheers for the free market!


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## MrMan (18 Jul 2008)

> How do you know who is a master craftsman and who is an average tradesman?



Therein lies the problem.



> We don't know what he actually did for a living so we can't compare it to anything


Mainly first fixing carpentry.


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## S.L.F (19 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> How do you know who is a master craftsman and who is an average tradesman?





MrMan said:


> Therein lies the problem.



This problem with rates of pay has come up before in different threads

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=75049
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=73919

The restoration of old sash windows is time consuming and difficult to do properly.
When I restore windows I strip the paint back from the sashes and the window frame to the old wood so the sashes run free.
It would be far easier and cheaper for me to buy new sashes and install them like most of my competition do instead of restoring the old ones.
I could use cheap fittings on the windows, my customers would never know but I don't.
There are plenty of shortcuts I could take to get my jobs finished faster but I don't take them.

This is the difference between someone like me and others.

I still have to compete with them though.


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