# Is it worth switching portfolio to DeGiro?



## gnostic (21 Aug 2017)

I have a portfolio with Cantor Fitzgerald who use Pershing as custodian. Fees are getting out of hand. Would I be better off transferring the lot to DeGiro?


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## rob oyle (21 Aug 2017)

How many individual investments are you holding, what sort of functionality do you want (i.e. scrip dividends) and how much is it costing you at present? I presume you hold your own share certs?


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## gnostic (22 Aug 2017)

I have 6 individual investments. I want to be able to trade, buy, sell, receive dividends and exercise scrip dividends. Fees for 2017, described as Advisory and Administration fees came to €360. (2016 €259, 2015 €190) This is on top of any commission and charges for individual trades. I have not seen a share certificate for years, as far as I know they are held  by my brokers custody agent.


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## Protocol (22 Aug 2017)

DeGiro fees are very low compared to what you are being charged.

2.50 pa per exchange (excl. ISE) is the only fixed fee. 

https://www.degiro.ie/fees/

Trading fees are very low.

You should check out the scrip issue, how that works with DeGiro.


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## AJAM (22 Aug 2017)

I've been with Degiro for 2 years. There fees are very low. The platform, over the 2 years, has become much easier to use. I would recommend that you opportunistically switch to Degiro. i.e. every time you want to buy, Use Degiro. Sell anything that won't generate a large gain (or offset gains with losses) and move it to Degiro.
Then take advantage of the 1270 CGT tax free gains each year to continue to sell down your positions.
Basically move as much as you can, as quickly as you can, but without incurring large CGT bills.


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## Dman35 (13 Sep 2017)

I'm currently with SAXO Bank and while I find the trading platform very good the charges in DeGiro are much lower..

However I currently have about 20 open positions with SAXO Bank. Has anyone transferred their holdings to DeGiro??? Is it hard to do? does it turn out very costly?

Tks


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## Paul F (13 Sep 2017)

@gnostic Per this document Cantor appear to charge €25 per holding to transfer a holding to another broker (or €75 per holding if it is a foreign stock).
https://cantorfitzgerald.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Commission-Rate-Card-6-17.pdf
@Dman35 For Saxo it appears to be €50 per holding (see here).

DeGiro also charge €10 per holding when receiving the stock. In theory you just have to send DeGiro this form, but you may also have to send a form to the broker you are leaving.

You should confirm the charges yourself and not rely on the above figures. You need to weigh the costs of doing it this way versus the costs of selling up with your old broker and buying the same stocks again with DeGiro. The latter approach will entail commissions and could trigger a capital gains bill.


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## joe sod (13 Sep 2017)

AJAM said:


> I would recommend that you opportunistically switch to Degiro. i.e. every time you want to buy, Use Degiro. Sell anything that won't generate a large gain (or offset gains with losses) and move it to Degiro.
> Then take advantage of the 1270 CGT tax free gains each year to continue to sell down your positions.
> Basically move as much as you can, as quickly as you can, but without incurring large CGT bills.



Is it not the case with the bed and breakfast rule with regard to capital gains and losses that if you sell say 1000 shares of stock A on a particular date, then within 1 month you buy back 1000 shares of stock A, there is no capital gain or capital loss. Therefore in order to harvest a gain or loss you must sell the shares and wait longer than a month before buying them back. Therefore in this scenario with regard to de Giro is it not possible to sell shares with  Cantor Fitzgerald and ensure that you buy back the same shares within the month to not worry about CGT.


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## Paul F (13 Sep 2017)

joe sod said:


> Is it not the case with the bed and breakfast rule with regard to capital gains and losses that if you sell say 1000 shares of stock A on a particular date, then within 1 month you buy back 1000 shares of stock A, there is no capital gain or capital loss. Therefore in order to harvest a gain or loss you must sell the shares and wait longer than a month before buying them back. Therefore in this scenario with regard to de Giro is it not possible to sell shares with  Cantor Fitzgerald and ensure that you buy back the same shares within the month to not worry about CGT.



No, you cannot avoid triggering a capital gain just by buying back the same stock within 28 days.

What you may be thinking of is that buying/selling within 28 days modifies the normal first-in-first-out (FIFO) rules, which apply to situations in which you bought blocks of shares in the same company at different times. dub_nerd explained the rules well here.


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## joe sod (13 Sep 2017)

Ok thanks for that, Im sorry for hijacking this thread, but another question with regard to FIFO rule.

If I buy 100 shares of stock A for $100 on sep 1 2015,
then I buy 80 shares of stock A for $60 on feb 1 2016,

so now I own 180 shares of stock A
then I sell 100 shares of stock A on May 1 2016 for $50.

My understanding of FIFO rules is that I can use the loss from the first shares I bought on sep 1 2015, therefore I can harvest the capital loss of $50 on these shares for a total CGT loss of 100x50 = $5000.

then on june 5 2016 (after month waiting period) I buy back 100 shares of stock A for $48.
therefore I own 180 shares of stock A again, but I have harvested the capital loss on the first 100 shares I bought. I presume this is perfectly legitimate


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## Paul F (13 Sep 2017)

Yes, in the scenario you describe you have a capital loss of $5000, which can can offset against future gains on the disposal of any shares (or anything you sell which would attract capital gains tax, for that matter).

A few points to note:

The loss can be carried forward indefinitely and used in the current year or in future years (unless the law changes)
You must use the loss first before using your annual CGT exemption (€1270). This means that if you don't have _realised_ capital gains of at least €5000, you will be missing out on the chance to avail of your CGT exemption. This is a case for not realising the full $5000 loss in one go.
For the purposes of calculating CGT, incidental costs of acquiring an asset are added to its cost, and incidental costs of disposal are deducted from the proceeds. These "incidental costs" include stamp duty and brokers' fees. (It is not clear if account maintenance fees can be included.) Taken together, these can lower your CGT bill slightly.
This thread discusses the pros and cons of the "tax loss harvesting" approach you are thinking of. I personally believe that it is worth it, provided you don't miss out on your annual CGT exemption and that your broker's commissions aren't huge. You aren't actually eliminating the CGT; you're deferring it into the future.


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## joe sod (14 Sep 2017)

thanks for your response paul, i thought that this was correct but it does seem a little too good, in that you have harvested the loss but still end up owning the same number of shares. Obviously its not that good in that you have lost money on a losing investment so far


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## Dman35 (14 Sep 2017)

Tks very much for your reply Paul F.. Much appreciated..


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## joe sod (28 Sep 2017)

joe sod said:


> Ok thanks for that, Im sorry for hijacking this thread, but another question with regard to FIFO rule.
> 
> If I buy 100 shares of stock A for $100 on sep 1 2015,
> then I buy 80 shares of stock A for $60 on feb 1 2016,
> ...


 
I know I hijacked this thread to talk about tax loss selling. But to continue with this example which Paul F kindly answered, 
"then on june 5 2016 (after month waiting period) I buy back 100 shares of stock A for $48."
Is it possible for me to immediately after buying back these 100 shares to then on say on june 6 2016 to sell 80 shares of stock A for $48 ( thereby using up the remaining capital loss of $12 on these shares, $960 in total). Then I wait a month to also buy back these shares on july 6 2016 for say $50.
        The logic here would be to split the tax loss selling in order to maintain some exposure to Stock A rather than selling it in its entirety then buying it back in its entirety one month later, in case there is a rebound in the price of stock A while  I am waiting out the 4 weeks.


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## MrEarl (29 Sep 2017)

Would make far more sense to have two threads - one for DeGiro and one for the discussion on tax loss selling


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## joe sod (30 Sep 2017)

Well Im in the process of transferring to de Giro, I have just registered with them I have a UK platform selftrade that is not overly expensive £12 per trade but not as good as de Giro and they do tend to cream off some foreign exchange difference for euro and irish stocks quoted in euros. So I am using tax loss selling to transfer over to De Giro


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## Paul F (30 Sep 2017)

joe sod said:


> "then on june 5 2016 (after month waiting period) I buy back 100 shares of stock A for $48."
> Is it possible for me to immediately after buying back these 100 shares to then on say on june 6 2016 to sell 80 shares of stock A for $48 ( thereby using up the remaining capital loss of $12 on these shares, $960 in total). Then I wait a month to also buy back these shares on july 6 2016 for say $50.



If you sell 80 shares of company A on 6 June they will be "identified with" the shares of company A you bought the previous day. This means that the 80 shares you've just sold are treated as being from amongst the 100 shares you bought the previous day. You will not have realised any capital losses from this sale.



joe sod said:


> The logic here would be to split the tax loss selling in order to maintain some exposure to Stock A rather than selling it in its entirety then buying it back in its entirety one month later, in case there is a rebound in the price of stock A while  I am waiting out the 4 weeks.



If you can find a stock that you regard as "similar" to stock A (one that you think has  taken an unfair hammering and likely to bounce back) you could buy that stock instead and you wouldn't have to "sit out" the 4-week period.


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## joe sod (1 Oct 2017)

Thanks very much for your contribution Paul F, thats cleared up alot of things. The only way to illuminate the issues is with examples, although tedious for contributors like yourself to answer. I find the examples on the revenue website not the best as they do not iron out all the glitches. Its obvious they do not wish to promote tax loss selling as a strategy. Actually tax loss selling was probably not the best strategy for me personally as I could not bring myself to buy back some shares I sold before that have now recovered which I missed out on. It proves the best investing strategy is actually "do nothing" most times


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## sunnydonkey (2 Oct 2017)

AJAM said:


> I've been with Degiro for 2 years. There fees are very low. The platform, over the 2 years, has become much easier to use. I would recommend that you opportunistically switch to Degiro. i.e. every time you want to buy, Use Degiro. Sell anything that won't generate a large gain (or offset gains with losses) and move it to Degiro.
> Then take advantage of the 1270 CGT tax free gains each year to continue to sell down your positions.
> Basically move as much as you can, as quickly as you can, but without incurring large CGT bills.




If your current Broker agrees to *transfer *your holdings to the other broker, as distinct from selling them and transferring the cash for the shares to be bought back, I don't see why this would trigger a CGT liability.


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## NewEdition (8 Apr 2018)

I have done a few transactions this year with Degiro - When I filter on those transactions, I see the share cost etc and the fee, but I dont see stamp duty.
Or is that only paid when I sell?
I was with Saxo before and I am sure they charged stamp duty when I made a purchase.
Some of the companies I bought are on the Irish Stock Exchange (€) and some are on the LSE (£)


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## moneymakeover (9 Apr 2018)

Seems like 1% stamp duty when sell


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## honeybadger12 (11 Apr 2018)

I wouldn't deposit more than €20,000 into a Degiro account, that max amount protected if they go belly up.


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## LoveTrees (19 Apr 2018)

honeybadger12 said:


> I wouldn't deposit more than €20,000 into a Degiro account, that max amount protected if they go belly up.



No broker is protected much by their country to my knowledge...


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## Minnow2 (6 Jun 2018)

honeybadger12 said:


> I wouldn't deposit more than €20,000 into a Degiro account, that max amount protected if they go belly up.


I understood that if you hold shares/ETFs through a broker that they would remain yours if the broker was to fail. Cash in your account would be at risk. Am I incorrect?


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## LoveTrees (21 Jun 2018)

Minnow2 said:


> I understood that if you hold shares/ETFs through a broker that they would remain yours if the broker was to fail. Cash in your account would be at risk. Am I incorrect?



That's what I understood as well when I googled and found this:
https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057703259


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