# rent supplement refused, no accomodation to be found within upper limits for RS



## eitnos (27 Nov 2008)

Background - I am currently unemployed, and have been refused rent supplement by the CWO, as our rent exceeds the "local limit" of 130 a week for a couple with no children. 

We were told to source accomodation that would fall under this limit, but I have been trying to source accomodation for almost 6 months now to no avail (and have been unable to find any work as of yet either in our area, which I had been hoping to, and a job I did get has fallen through yet again as the company went under) - there simply isn't anywhere we can find that is priced that low, most places are at least 30-40 euro dearer per week.

Even if we try to find someone to move in with us (we do have a spare bedroom) that still doesn't bring us down to within the limits, as the limit for a couple in shared accomodation drops to 80 euro per week, and we would be paying 100 euro a week between us, taking into account the lodger's contribution to the rent, so again we are paying 20 euro a week over and above what is "allowed" and the CWO still won't help us.

We are trying to survive by paying the full rent out of my JA (my partner is a dependent, so we receive 329 a week), leaving us with approx 500 per month after the rent is deducted, and we are sliding into trouble, as this has to cover all expenditure for two people including billls for ESB and gas, repayment of a loan I took out 3 years ago (roughly 250 a month payments, with a year left) groceries, etc etc. 

What I am wondering is a) why the limits are set unfeasibly low so as to refuse virtually everyone in private rented accomodation any assistance - if you pay even a euro more on your rent than is allowed, you get no assistance whatsoever - surely it would make sense to just allow a payment up to the set limit and then pay whatever is due over and above that amount yourself? Rather than making people pay the full whack out of their JB or JA and leaving them with virtually zero to live on? I have searched high and low and the lowest rental rates I can find, even on bedsits, are all at least 60 euro a month above and beyond the rent supplement limit. 

and b) is there anything I can do that might overturn the decision, as sourcing cheaper accomodation is proving impossible and we are surviving on loans from the bank and credit cards at this stage.


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## gipimann (27 Nov 2008)

The maximum rent limits are set by Dept of Social and Family Affairs as an attempt to curtail the amount spent on Rent Supplement. 

You have the right of appeal on your claim. Ask the CWO for an official refusal letter (if you haven't already been given/sent one), it will advise you who to appeal to. In the appeal, you should set out the circumstances as you've outlined above, including the financial situation the refusal has put you in.


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## Blossy (28 Nov 2008)

if u cant find work and u cant find cheaper accommodation in that area, can i ask why stay in that area?
My friend similar situation in Cork city moved out about 15/20mins drive where the rental prices where alot lower and she recieved her rent allowance!?
its is ridiculus, i ahve said before that i know of landlords and tenants where the lanlord fills in the forms stating he is only recieving for eg 750 per month, in order for the tenant to recieve rent allowance. the rent is really 900 per month and she pays the difference cash to the ladlord! its not the right way to do things, but its terrible the ceilings they put on it!


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## eitnos (28 Nov 2008)

Thanks for the responses folks and for offering advice.

Blossy - the reason we stay in this area is twofold - even if we did move out to say, a 20/30 min drive away, accomodation is still in the same price range (believe me I have looked into both the most rural of locations, and other smaller villages and towns up to a 20-30 mile radius, and the lowest price range is all pretty uniform, certainly nowhere near low enough to qualify for RS,  so we'd have the same rent to pay plus travel costs on top of that, leaving us even worse off), and the other reason we don't just move much much further afield for the time being is my partner is tied to the region we live in as he is in college fulltime, so we can't up sticks just yet and move to a completely differnt location to perhaps have a better chance at finding work. If he were not tied here, we would be moving pronto.

I was working when he decided to return to education, and we could afford to live on one wage, but I lost my job a while ago, we'd move across the country, or even out of it, if he was not tied to this location for college for the time being.

 He's so far into the course now that for him to drop out would not make sense (we have looked at that as an option already) as the years he's put in would go to waste, hopefully when he graduates his prospects will be much improved and we can move either to a bigger centre of population or abroad, and he will find work that is decently paid. If he dropped out now he'd be back to square one with no proper qualifications and would find it as hard as I am finding it to get a job. The course he is doing doesn't offer part time alternatives, it's fulltime or nothing, and he hasn't been able to find a part time job outside of college hours either as they are practically non-existent too.

It's a catch 22 situation. I was thinking of approaching the agent that looks after our accomodation for the landlord, to see if they'd be willing to either drop the rent, or let us pay in cash and put down a lower amount on the forms so we'd qualify, but I don't think either will be a possibility as they are all very much offical, above board and declaring everything correctly, and our rent has never been increased in the 5 years we've been living here, so I doubt they would be willing to drop a few hundred every month...

 I don't know, it's looking like we will have to struggle along and hope we can start paying off loans once my partner graduates and we can move away altogether. People MUST be lying on their forms to get RS, it seems the only way to fall within the limits.


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## Trustmeh (28 Nov 2008)

Blossy said:


> its is ridiculus, i ahve said before that i know of landlords and tenants where the lanlord fills in the forms stating he is only recieving for eg 750 per month, in order for the tenant to recieve rent allowance. the rent is really 900 per month and she pays the difference cash to the ladlord! its not the right way to do things, but its terrible the ceilings they put on it!



1. OP did not answer the question you asked about paying the difference between RA and the actual rent. I would hazard a guess that many/most of RA tenants are doing this. Its not encouraged by the SWO but its well known that the rates offered are lower than any decent accommodation.

2. You should certainly approach the landlord if you have been a good tenant for 5 years and ask for a decrease.  I know LL's that EXPECT their tenants to ask for decreases - and say that if asked would certainly grant a reduction. But they aren't going to offer it if you dont ask, that's for certain!

Approach the LL or agency with a proposal - you need to go on RA and are actively searching cheaper accommodation - tell them you have found one that will take RA...ask then to match the offer - they may want you to stay rather than have the place empty...you just might get what you want. 

remember that if you move out - the LL may indeed need to drop the price to attract a new tenant. If they have to drop the price 100/month and the house is empty for 6 weeks, that adds up to a lot the LL is out of pocket. Simple math really...good luck.


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## eitnos (16 Dec 2008)

Hi, just an update on my situation. 

I have managed to get the landlord to agree to a lower rent until I get work again, when it will return to previous level (which I am thrilled about, as fully expected them to just point blank say no), thus falling under the limit set for RA. 

However now the CWO is basically saying that because I have managed to pay the rent thus far, they don't see why I NEED RA  

I showed them documentation from utility companies showing that I am on final warnings for non-payment (have missed a few months payment at this stage as I literally don't have a tenner to spare), showed them visa bills showing I am maxed out to my upper limit and beyond, and not even making minimum payments, told them of a loan I received from the bank, and pointed to my current account which is continually in overdraft, and that is not proof enough that I am running into debt trying to keep a roof over my head???

The CWO even admitted that they can't see how I have been getting by on virtually nothing for the past while, well I buy a bare minumum of shopping, always  in the discount and own brand ranges, and basically spend nothing else - we do not go out ever, do not drink or smoke, have not bought a stitch of clothing/shoes/household items since forever, I budget to make sure I meet the rent and pay off the utility bills bit by bit whenever I can manage to squeeze a few euro out of my JA at the end of the week (enough to keep them from disconnecting us anyway) and yet I am penalised for *budgeting* as best I can to keep the essentials like rent and bills going. 


They are now looking for bank statements going back 6 months to see "how I have paid the rent" (how will bank statements prove anything beyond what I have already furnished them with??) plus a whole host of other documentation, presumably hoping that if they set enough hurdles for me, I will end up just giving up. I was talking to others in the waiting room of the CWO, and they are all saying the same thing - CWO looking for endless documentation, often ridiculous stuff (like when I was told I would have to provide letters proving I was looking for cheaper accomodation - what landlord is going to agree to go to the bother of typing up a letter for the Health board for some stranger who has rung to enquire about their property??)and when it is provided, looking for even more, and dragging the decision process out for months at a time. 

I don't understand why I am being penalised as a result of giving up every luxury, and more than a few essentials also, in order to meet rent and try to keep up with utilities. I honestly thought that now I fell under the limit set for RA it would be a matter of stamping my application.... but I am going to continue providing as much documentation as they keep asking for, no matter how ridiculous, until such time as we are put out of our house.

If I could get the RA, I could then pay off the utility bills with my JA as I will have some breathing space if the RA was paid, and keep our heads above water until the jobs situation might pick up again, but it seems the CWOs prefer to see people getting into trouble and losing the roof over their heads. Sure then they might provide us with a lovely bed in a hostel and we can leave all our belongings in a skip and give our dog and cat to a pound.

Sorry I know that's a bit of a rant but I am mystified as to why CWOs will penalise people who budget and be happy to see us get futher and futher into debt, while blithely handing out payments to others who don't budget. 

 I honestly don't know what I am going to do.


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## Trustmeh (23 Dec 2008)

Well done on getting the rent decrease anyways.  Keep the head up and stick at it - its red tape sure - but all government departments are being overrun with unemployed and its simply a numbers game.  If you have been able to budget then see it from their point of view - there will be others coming in that are only getting the shock of high bills and no work in the last month. Rightly or wrongly you will be competing for the same decreasing amount of gov funds.


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## buckrodgers (23 Dec 2008)

I am surprised they are being so harsh. I have had experience of them in the past and I found them helpful. They did expect masses of paperwork though, about 6 months of bank statements, statements for all loans, evidence of income and outgoings. I told them we had borrowed from family to get by, which we had, and that they had no more to lend. A lot of it does seem to depend on the health board officer you get which I think is unfair, especially if they take a dislike to you. You can appeal any decision made to the main health board office where you are.


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## eitnos (28 Dec 2008)

Thanks for the replies. Yanklink, I do see that I am competing with so many people now for what little money is available, but it just galls me to think that because we have tried to be responsible with what little money we have, and cut all expenditure down to virtually nothing - to the extent that we have not even been able to afford any heating this whole winter as we can't afford to pay for the gas or extra electricity, instead we sit at night with 2 layers of coats on - that they think we are less deserving than others who haven't cut their cloth to the same extent and tried to get by. 


Buckrodgers, I do think that the CWO has a bit of an attitude towards us - 
The CWO has made quite a few semi-snide comments about how "nice" the area I live in is and how am I managing to live here while "only on the dole"! No matter that the rent level we pay is at the lowest of the low end of the scale for ANY area within approx 15 miles, town or country. Of course, how can you prove they have an "attitude" in an appeal...my word against theirs. 

This is the only reason I can think of as to why the CWO has taken an attitude towards us as I have been nothing but courteous/polite/respectful and humble going into meetings, yet they have been suspicious/implying that I must be working off the books or something to have kept this particular roof over our heads for this long. I come away from meetings feeling like they think I am scum and like I am some sort of criminal trying to pull a fast one due to the attitude taken by the CWO. Believe me, I'd much rather be working and paying my own way (like I have always done until recently) rather than taking any handout from the state and being made to feel so worthless.

I will press on with providing all the info they ask for, and see on what grounds they will try to refuse us again in the new year. I still fail to see how it would be better for them financially to leave us in a position where we end up homeless, as then they would be looking at providing two people with emergency accomdation which is far from cheap, although from my dealings with the CWO to date, I reckon they would then tell us that we can budget and find ourselves a cardboard box to live in.

Thanks for the replies so far, you have helped strengthen my resolve to keep going and jumping through all the hoops set by the CWO, rather than just give up and bury my head in the sand regarding my debts.


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## Trustmeh (28 Dec 2008)

Try not to think that they are against you personally. (I hope that you are wrong).  You will HAVE to tick all the boxes for them. If they have ANY excuse not to give you money they will be crawling over your forms to find it. They will be doing that for everyone - and try to delay as long as possible. This is going to happen to everyone looking for government funds in all walks of life - from the CWO to big construction projects to lottery funding.


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## Rose (28 Dec 2008)

Eitnos how about approaching your local St. Vincent de Paul Society, they do help in your situation and generally are glad to see people making the effort to (if you like) better themselves.  MABS might be able to help you persuade CWO that you are a deserving case. Good luck and I hope things pick up for you.


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## gipimann (29 Dec 2008)

Eitnos, if you feel that the CWO is taking an unduly long time to process your claim, you should write to, or make an appointment to see the Superintendent CWO and explain the circumstances to him/her.

You could ask if there is any information which you haven't provided to support your claim (it doesn't sound like there is from your posts) and request a speedy decision on your application for Rent Supplement.  If you are officially refused RS, then you have the right of appeal as I mentioned earlier.


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## Imbroke (7 Jan 2009)

Keep your head up. I was once in your position whereas I kept on getting refused RA because as a family of three we were living in a three bedroom house(one bedroom too many). We had been living in the house for a year when I became unemployed and CWO attitude was "get a smaller house". We Struggled on and I eventually got some work and we are fine now.
Also you were saying that you have to pay back bank loans. Contact the various bank credit control officers and explain to them your situation and show them that you are starting to go under and you are willing to to pay them a little each month(say 20 euros) until your circumstance improve. They would rather get 20 than nothing at all. I know Ive been there.


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## Bronte (8 Jan 2009)

Me too, once had to deal with getting the dole etc, will never forget the treatment.  The condescending attitude can be unbelievable but you have to tick their boxes and don't they know it, so be careful.  It's not true of all of them as I've been treated very kindly by others.  I also agree that you need to talk to your lenders by explaining your circumstances and maybe getting a moratorium on the interest, MABS should be able to help you in the negotiations.  Heat is more important than paying credit card bills.


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## Roughan (12 Jan 2009)

Hi there,

I hope your situation has improved.  The CWO sounds like a right one!

They must think that you are trying to con the system in some way and have a lot of saving/redundancy payments stashed and the comment about "living in that area when you are only on the dole" is totally unacceptable.

It's that type of attitude that gives the service a bad name. I think you have just been unlucky that the person handling your case is a XXXX!

If this hasnt been sorted as yet you should contact Focus Ireland 6712 555 or Threshold for free advice on how best to progress.

Best of luck.


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## keredern (13 Jan 2009)

eitnos said:


> Thanks for the replies. Yanklink, I do see that I am competing with so many people now for what little money is available, but it just galls me to think that because we have tried to be responsible with what little money we have, and cut all expenditure down to virtually nothing - to the extent that we have not even been able to afford any heating this whole winter as we can't afford to pay for the gas or extra electricity, instead we sit at night with 2 layers of coats on - that they think we are less deserving than others who haven't cut their cloth to the same extent and tried to get by.
> 
> 
> Buckrodgers, I do think that the CWO has a bit of an attitude towards us -
> ...



Hi, just wanted to say sorry for the apparently awful response you have had from this CWO. You have the right to a speedy decision at the very least. If you believe that you have submitted all documents or that you submit some only to have more requested repeatedly, then you should contact the SCWO immediately in writing.

Try to keep your points factual rather than making personal comments about the CWO. I do not doubt that you have been given a pathetic and unprofessional hearing but any concerns you have about this treatment should be made in the form of an official complaint once you have a decision on your claim one way or another.

As in all areas of service provision, both public and private, there are those with attitude who seem to think they have the authority to pass judgment on those that attend. You sound like the kind of person that we should all strive to be! I have huge admiration for the sacrifices you have made to keep things going. DO NOT GIVE UP!!

If you do not get a satisfactory response from either the CWO or the SCWO contact the Appeals Officer for your area and request their advice. I know our Appeals Officer is excellent. You can also send a copy of the letter to the CWS General Manager. Check with the HSE Head Office where you live for his/her name and contact details. This can be very effective and is your right.

Decisions for any claim must be made in a reasonable time frame once sufficient documentation and information has been submitted. It sounds to me like you passed that stage months ago.

One point to note regarding the seemingly endless documentation requests. CWOs *must* be able to stand over *EVERY *decision they make and back this up with hard evidence. Their files are subject to audit by the Auditor General hence the need for so much paper.

Good luck and send me a private message if you need anything further.


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