# Form 12 and Dividends - Proof of dividends?



## qingdao (15 Sep 2008)

Hi,  I'm in the process of filling up form 12. When sending in the form is it necessary include copies, or originals, of the script dividends showing what DWT was held etc. Or is it just ok to fill in all the figures and wait for the revenue to come back if they want more info?  thanks,


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## Gondola (16 Sep 2008)

No supporting documentation should be sent together with the form (as far as I know). Revenue asks that you keep your documentation for - I think - 6 years, so you will have it ready to submit to Revenue in case they want to see it.


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## qingdao (16 Sep 2008)

Hi again,

What happens with US dividends where some DWT has been taken (15%) from the US side. Will this be taken into account (double taxation agreements etc). If you're on the lower tax rate only 5% more tax is due? If you don't include documentation showing what tax was paid/not paid how will Revenue treat it?


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## ClubMan (16 Sep 2008)

As far as I know you can get a tax credit for any _US _dividend witholding tax under the _Ireland/US _double taxation agreement. If you have remitted a W-8BEN form to the _US_ authorities (normally via your US broker) then I believe that the witholding tax is reduced to 0% so you just have to pay the _Irish _tax in full. From the _W-8BEN_ form:


> All Non US Persons are subject to US tax at a rate of 30% on income they receive from US sources, such as dividends on US
> securities. If you reside in a country that has a double taxation treaty agreement with the US, you can avail of a reduced rate
> of tax deducted, generally 15%. This US tax is also charged on sales of US securities for Non US Persons at a rate of 30%. For
> a person residing in a country, that has a double taxation treaty agreement with the US, the rate of tax is reduced to 0%.
> ...


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## Mark_Mc (16 Sep 2008)

I think the line in red above would relate to this phrase "This US tax is also charged on sales of US securities for Non US Persons at a rate of 30%." and not the withholding tax on dividend income. If that is an exact quote then the sentence I have highlighted immiedately follows the withholding tax reference on sales not income.



ClubMan said:


> As far as I know you can get a tax credit for any _US _dividend witholding tax under the _Ireland/US _double taxation agreement. If you have remitted a W-8BEN form to the _US_ authorities (normally via your US broker) then I believe that the witholding tax is reduced to 0% so you just have to pay the _Irish _tax in full. From the _W-8BEN_ form:


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## strong1 (11 Dec 2008)

Hi

Just reading up on this form W-8BEN now, it states that it should be submitted prior to the receipt of income.

Does anyone know if there is a different form if you have already received dividends with DWT of 30% deducted.

Thanks


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## extopia (11 Dec 2008)

Don't know about Form 12, but when you fill out the electronic Form 11, you enter the gross amount of US dividends and automatically get a tax credit for 15% of that amount (It's called double taxation relief in the calculations).


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## Nomansland (17 Dec 2008)

Hi lads,
 I have just gotten a statement in the door from my broker detailing the net dividend payable to me arising out of a share scheme I am in with my company. I have had US tax deducted at 15%. Does this mean that I have not filled out an up to date W8-ben? I know I have filled it out in the past. Does it need to be updated every year? Irish tax has been deducted @20%. However as I pay at the top rate, does this mean that I must pay the balance of tax up to 41% to the revenue. 
A few more Q's.
Is there any way I can claim back the US tax?
What form do I need to fill out to settle with the revenue?
As a sepearate question. I sold company shares this year. There is not CGT payable on them as I made an overall loss. Do I need to do a return to the revenu on this. What form do I fill out if any?
Sorry for all the questions.


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## ClubMan (17 Dec 2008)

Nomansland said:


> Hi lads,
> I have just gotten a statement in the door from my broker detailing the net dividend payable to me arising out of a share scheme I am in with my company. I have had US tax deducted at 15%. Does this mean that I have not filled out an up to date W8-ben?


Sounds like it.


> I know I have filled it out in the past. Does it need to be updated every year?


Not sure if it's every year but they definitely have to be renewed. In my experience your broker usually notifies you - e.g. _Datek/Ameritrade _in the past and _E*Trade _now in my case.


> Irish tax has been deducted @20%. However as I pay at the top rate, does this mean that I must pay the balance of tax up to 41% to the revenue.


Yes - but I'm not sure where the 15% _US _witholding tax and (?) 20% _Irish _witholding tax comes into your situation?


> Is there any way I can claim back the US tax?


Depends on the double taxation treaty - this may allow you to claim a credit against _Irish _liabilities in respect of the _US _witholding tax.


> What form do I need to fill out to settle with the revenue?


_Form 12 _I presume?


> As a sepearate question. I sold company shares this year. There is not CGT payable on them as I made an overall loss. Do I need to do a return to the revenu on this. What form do I fill out if any?


See the _CGT _section of www.revenue.ie - it explains how to make a _CGT _return. You should probably make one even if there is no _CGT _liability if only to record the relevant figures.


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## Nomansland (22 Dec 2008)

Thanks for the response Club man. I have one final question though.
At what point are you required to make a a tax return on shares that have been sold? I left the cash proceeds of one transaction (in USD's $$) deposited with one of the brokers (UBS). Other company shares I had are managed by Davy. I have also sold these, converted to euro's and left the cash on deposit in my Davy account. Do I need to complete a tax return on these transactions now??

Thanks in advance.


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## ClubMan (22 Dec 2008)

Nomansland said:


> At what point are you required to make a a tax return on shares that have been sold?


See the _CGT _section of www.revenue.ie.


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