# Accounting apprenticeship or Accounting degree?



## Erithié Kazimbe (25 Mar 2022)

Hi, I’m an 18 year old Leaving Cert student. I’ve always found accounting to be very interesting and enjoyable so I wanted to pursue a career in it. I found an apprenticeship by ATI for 2 years with a level 6 QQI Advanced certificate in accounting which will lead me to transfer to chartered accountants Ireland which is where I want to get to. Through this option I also gain 2 years experience in accounting whilst doing my apprenticeship, however, I’m worried that when I’m a chartered account will company’s be reluctant to hire me as I didn’t obtain a degree?


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Mar 2022)

You are better off getting a degree.

Is ATI the Accounting Technicians?  If you start with this, you will always be regarded as an accounting technician. 

But the chartered exams are difficult.  And if you don't pass them, you might regret not having the accounting technician qualification to fall back on.

Brendan


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## Paul O Mahoney (26 Mar 2022)

I'd do the apprenticeship and when finished decide what next.
There are a slew of professional accounting qualifications now, simply debit and crediting accounts is probably done by accounting software but the areas of financial planning, interpretation of accounts, management accounting, project accounting to name a few, are growing rapidly in all spheres of business but will require the understanding of balance sheets , P&L , cashflow which the ATI will provide.

I don't know how long a degree takes nowadays in my day (80s)it was 4 yrs for commerce then onto professional for another 2/3 , cant remember.

The apprenticeship also gives you real experience for 2 years and that's another consideration perhaps.

Other considerations would be working straight after school might be a bit of a drag , studying,  attending classes and using holidays ,weekends for this can also be a drag.

Like everything in life decisions will have to be made that suits your life and ambitions,  but you are still young enough to make incorrect decisions and recover.

Best of Luck


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## Erithié Kazimbe (26 Mar 2022)

Thank you for the advice Paul, definitely something to think about.


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## Blackrock1 (26 Mar 2022)

There are a few things to consider, for most people the best time of their life is in college, it’s not just about the degree it’s the whole experience and you grow your network as well.

It all depends what we are comparing here as well, where are you thinking of doing a degree ? Accountancy is a bit like law now, where you did your degree and where you did your training can have an outsized impact on your future career prospects.


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## Erithié Kazimbe (26 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> There are a few things to consider, for most people the best time of their life is in college, it’s not just about the degree it’s the whole experience and you grow your network as well.
> 
> It all depends what we are comparing here as well, where are you thinking of doing a degree ? Accountancy is a bit like law now, where you did your degree and where you did your training can have an outsized impact on your future career prospects.


I was thinking on doing the degree at UCD


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## misemoi (26 Mar 2022)

It's great that apprenticeships exist, I saw the Central Bank have a great one too that might be worth a look. But if you have the opportunity to go to college, then I would certainly advise that for the life experience alone. Especially if you can do Erasmus or work placement as part of it. And spend your summers working/travelling abroad if you can. 

Either route though would lead to a successful career in accounting for a committed and talented person, it's not all about the big firms and one particular route into it. Do check the exemptions for the professional exams of the courses you are considering and the options within those courses before you decide. I would also say that having a background or mindset in accounting will almost always work to your advantage no matter what role you work in. Best of luck with your decision!


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## Erithié Kazimbe (26 Mar 2022)

misemoi said:


> It's great that apprenticeships exist, I saw the Central Bank have a great one too that might be worth a look. But if you have the opportunity to go to college, then I would certainly advise that for the life experience alone. Especially if you can do Erasmus or work placement as part of it. And spend your summers working/travelling abroad if you can.
> 
> Either route though would lead to a successful career in accounting for a committed and talented person, it's not all about the big firms and one particular route into it. Do check the exemptions for the professional exams of the courses you are considering and the options within those courses before you decide. I would also say that having a background or mindset in accounting will almost always work to your advantage no matter what role you work in. Best of luck with your decision!


Thank you so much for this, very helpful


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Mar 2022)

misemoi said:


> I saw the Central Bank have a great one too



I wouldn't advise anyone to train as an accountant in the Central Bank.

If they want banking or civil service type experience, that is fine.  But it would be hard to transfer accounting experience from the Central Bank to another organisation - other than the public service. 

Brendan


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## Paul O Mahoney (26 Mar 2022)

misemoi said:


> It's great that apprenticeships exist, I saw the Central Bank have a great one too that might be worth a look. But if you have the opportunity to go to college, then I would certainly advise that for the life experience alone. Especially if you can do Erasmus or work placement as part of it. And spend your summers working/travelling abroad if you can.
> 
> Either route though would lead to a successful career in accounting for a committed and talented person, it's not all about the big firms and one particular route into it. Do check the exemptions for the professional exams of the courses you are considering and the options within those courses before you decide. I would also say that having a background or mindset in accounting will almost always work to your advantage no matter what role you work in. Best of luck with your decision!


Options are far greater now than 30/40 years ago, which is great.


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## Blackrock1 (26 Mar 2022)

Erithié Kazimbe said:


> I was thinking on doing the degree at UCD


Well then if you want to be an accountant my advice is do a commerce degree get a big 4 training contract and do it that way, you’ll have far more earning power than any other route.


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## Blackrock1 (26 Mar 2022)

misemoi said:


> It's great that apprenticeships exist, I saw the Central Bank have a great one too that might be worth a look. But if you have the opportunity to go to college, then I would certainly advise that for the life experience alone. Especially if you can do Erasmus or work placement as part of it. And spend your summers working/travelling abroad if you can.
> 
> Either route though would lead to a successful career in accounting for a committed and talented person, it's not all about the big firms and one particular route into it. Do check the exemptions for the professional exams of the courses you are considering and the options within those courses before you decide. I would also say that having a background or mindset in accounting will almost always work to your advantage no matter what role you work in. Best of luck with your decision!


All other things be in equal a Ucd degree and big 4 training contract will be more beneficial than another route, it’s just the way it works.


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> All other things be in equal a Ucd degree and big 4 training contract will be more beneficial than another route, it’s just the way it works.



Fully agree. 

Though it does not have to be a commerce degree.  If you enjoy accounting, then go for it.  But you could also study Economics or Greek and Roman Civilization.

Brendan


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## Paul O Mahoney (26 Mar 2022)

A person doesn't have to pursue ACA either theres ACCA, CPA, CIMA , names might have changed since my day and there are probably more " institutes" covering other accounting specific to industries..


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## Blackrock1 (26 Mar 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> A person doesn't have to pursue ACA either theres ACCA, CPA, CIMA , names might have changed since my day and there are probably more " institutes" covering other accounting specific to industries..


ACA is still the most ‘prestigious’ qualification, its the one I’d advise going for.


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## Paul O Mahoney (26 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> ACA is still the most ‘prestigious’ qualification, its the one I’d advise going for.


Heard that in the 80s too, and we all hear about the brilliance of the auditing of banks, Enron,  in fact most financial scandals are attributed to the auditing by the big 4. Was Big 5 but when Arthur Andersen were caught essentially fiddling everything. 

"Prestigious" indeed.


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## Peanuts20 (28 Mar 2022)

Your target is to become a fully qualified accountant. Firstly, assume you get a degree, check to see if it gives you any exemptions from accountancy exams or if there are specific modules or courses as part of your degree that will give you more exemptions. 

Secondly, a commerce degree will give you a broader set of knowledge then just doing pure accountancy. That will be more of an attraction for a big accounting firm. Also, you may find you actually don't like accountancy as much as the other subjects ( I did) and your plans may change. A BComm will give you that flexibility

Bear in mind, that if you do end up working for a big firm, once you've passed your accounting exams, next stop will be a Masters, otherwise you'll be at a disadvantage against other people in the firm


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## Scoobydoobydoo (28 Mar 2022)

Ditto on everything Peanuts said....

You might find these days that alot of firms now look beyond the typical business/finance degrees and look for well rounded employees with broader experiences from all walks of life.  In a previous life my manager had a law degree and the fella sitting next to me right now has a degree in classical studies.....all accountants.....

If you have passions outside of finance, it would be an idea to look there first. It is very easy to do a 1 year taught masters conversion course to give you a leg up to start the journey to becoming a qualified accountant.


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## Steven Barrett (28 Mar 2022)

What Blackrock1 said. 

Going to college is great fun. You are long enough working, so going to college for 3 years is a great experience and you will meet people who will be friends for life. Then apply to get into one of the Big 4 (or even the other big firms like GT or BDO) and get your qualification. 

I have lots of successful clients working in different industries who are accountants by trade. A very worthwhile profession to be in.


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## Blackrock1 (28 Mar 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> Your target is to become a fully qualified accountant. Firstly, assume you get a degree, check to see if it gives you any exemptions from accountancy exams or if there are specific modules or courses as part of your degree that will give you more exemptions.
> 
> Secondly, a commerce degree will give you a broader set of knowledge then just doing pure accountancy. That will be more of an attraction for a big accounting firm. Also, you may find you actually don't like accountancy as much as the other subjects ( I did) and your plans may change. A BComm will give you that flexibility
> 
> Bear in mind, that if you do end up working for a big firm, once you've passed your accounting exams, next stop will be a Masters, otherwise you'll be at a disadvantage against other people in the firm


Generally if you are joining a big firm you will get the option of doing a masters in accounting *before *you join (or its how it used to work) sponsored by them. It means you are exempted all but the final exams so they get a few more months work out of you.


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## Blackrock1 (28 Mar 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Heard that in the 80s too, and we all hear about the brilliance of the auditing of banks, Enron,  in fact most financial scandals are attributed to the auditing by the big 4. Was Big 5 but when Arthur Andersen were caught essentially fiddling everything.
> 
> "Prestigious" indeed.


Regardless its still the case.


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## T McGibney (28 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> ACA is still the most ‘prestigious’ qualification, its the one I’d advise going for.





Paul O Mahoney said:


> Heard that in the 80s too, and we all hear about the brilliance of the auditing of banks, Enron,  in fact most financial scandals are attributed to the auditing by the big 4. Was Big 5 but when Arthur Andersen were caught essentially fiddling everything.
> 
> "Prestigious" indeed.


Very few ACAs audit any more though.


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## Blackrock1 (28 Mar 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Very few ACAs audit any more though.


Where do you get that from? All the trainees that go into big 4 (well 99% of them) do ACA, their managers are most likely ACA, as is the audit director and audit partner.


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## T McGibney (28 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Where do you get that from?


Er, I work as an accountant, in practice. (I also audit.)


Blackrock1 said:


> All the trainees that go into big 4 (well 99% of them) do ACA, their managers are most likely ACA, as is the audit director and audit partner.


Large firms are probably the only firms in the country doing much audit work anymore. Outside very large corporates, and regulated sectors like larger charities and regulated entities in the financial/insurance sectors etc, demand for audit services has fallen off a cliff as most other companies can avail of audit exemption. Even the Big 4 firms are far less reliant on audit work than they were 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Most newly-qualified ACAs these days will rarely if ever do audit work.


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## Blackrock1 (28 Mar 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Er, I work as an accountant, in practice. (I also audit.)
> 
> Large firms are probably the only firms in the country doing much audit work anymore. Outside very large corporates, and regulated sectors like larger charities and regulated entities in the financial/insurance sectors etc, demand for audit services has fallen off a cliff as most other companies can avail of audit exemption. Even the Big 4 firms are far less reliant on audit work than they were 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Most newly-qualified ACAs these days will rarely if ever do audit work.


i dont really agree with that statement, a certain portion may not but the audit departments in the large firms still take on a large amount of audit trainees and despite changes in the way you can qualify as an ACA id imagine the majority still come from the large firms by way of a training contract.


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## T McGibney (28 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> i dont really agree with that statement, a certain portion may not but the audit departments in the large firms still take on more audit trainees than anything else and despite changes in the way you can qualify as an ACA id imagine the majority still come from the large firms by way of a training contract.


I'm not sure that even contradicts what I've said.


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## Blackrock1 (28 Mar 2022)

T McGibney said:


> I'm not sure that even contradicts what I've said.


Im not going to get into it with you beyond reiterating that in my opinon your statement that very few ACA's audit is not accurate.


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## T McGibney (28 Mar 2022)

Blackrock1 said:


> Im not going to get into it with you beyond reiterating that in my opinon your statement that very few ACA's audit is not accurate.


That's okay too.


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## trajan (1 May 2022)

Going back to that original question - should OP go with an ATI apprenticeship now and later switch to full accountant training or should OP do a related degree and then join an accounting firm while preparing for his professional final exams.

My first thought was that this choice of ATI qualification seems odd: if you are good enough to be a candidate for UCD commerce/accounting/economics you should be looking at an ACA articleship or apprenticeship as they call it today.  As you see on the CAI page, your relation to the ATI programme need only last 1 year, the second year is optional - perhaps something those with no previous knowledge in accounting or business subject might want to avail of. I doubt if this would apply to you as you have studied the stuff at school.

So as I see it, your choice would be between the Accounting/Finance degree or the ACA apprenticeship.
Misemoi tells us of the Central bank scholarships which start at €27,000 (that's not to be sneezed at) and involve a Griffith College degree. A little bit of (economic) independence is needed to get the habit of responsibility - something most students don't seem to have or if they do can't express it in the sea of loud vulgarity known as student life. An 18 year old being a net provider to his home rather than a net expense will give you a status of sorts at home. I see no explicit mention of the Central Bank supporting your studies towards professional qualifications like ACA - but you can check up on that.
But there are plenty of accounting firms offering a similar sort of proposition, though maybe not as well paid as the Central Bank's one.

Previous posters have advised to get a degree and then train with a big 4 accounting firm.
I'm not an accountant so all I can say is what Michael Deeny said once about choosing a firm to train with: in a small audit firm you get to see all sorts of businesses and how they make their profits, in a large firm you can spend all your time working on the accounts of the same 3-4 huge companies. Granted Deeny never intended to be an accountant for long, he just wanted to get into business. If you want a professional career in audit and feel at ease with people from the corporate sphere then you may make a different decision.

So it's college life, Erasmus, academia, etc vs the pay, adult working environment and well-supervised progress of an apprenticeship in an audit firm. Only you or your parents (possibly teachers too) who have been looking at you and your motivation through your life can judge what is right for you.

One bit of advice I will give you regardless of which path you choose: always do regular exercise 6 days a week. This can be casual sport or just a workout on the floor at home though it's naturally more a total experience if it's with others in a gym or sportsfield. But get it done as it make you feel better and think clearer.


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