# A rant about professional fees In Ireland.....



## rabbit (22 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ????*



liteweight said:


> It doesn't have to be a cartel. Dentists, like doctors always charge what the guy down the road is charging. Some charge more and some charge less, but the average is always expensive.


 
Exactly.   And any of the ones I know seem to spend a lot of their money on expensive foreign holidays,  multiple investment properties, yachts etc.      Just because foreign dentists do not charge the same as Irish dentists does not mean they are as good. The 80,000 euro BMW or Mercedes in Ireland is no better than the equivalent car abroad, which may cost an awful lot less.


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## markowitzman (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ????*



> And any of the ones I know seem to spend a lot of their money on expensive foreign holidays, multiple investment properties, yachts etc.


 Oh my God where am I going wrong! I thought it was just barristers, builders, consultants, pub owners, pharmacists etc etc that had these. 





> Just because foreign dentists do not charge the same as Irish dentists does not mean they are as good.


 After a few years working the nhs in england followed by 15 years here my experience is otherwise. 





> The 80,000 euro BMW or Mercedes in Ireland is no better than the equivalent car abroad, which may cost an awful lot less.


 Biffo Cowen may be able to help on this!


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## liteweight (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ????*

You forgot plastic surgeons!


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## markowitzman (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ????*

and accountants !!
am a bit wary of saying this here as there are a quite a few lurking around!
that said, they save me dollars although not enough for the new merc or yacht!
Had 1 hour with tax specialist during the year for 600 euro.
Saved me a multiple of this.
Funny how same argument does not hold for saving one's front tooth for similar money via a root canal?!


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## Gone Fishin' (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ????*



ubiquitous said:


> Why? You were quoted a price in advance. You accepted this price. You availed of this service and paid the agreed price. Perhaps you would have been happier had the dentist wasted your time and his own in unnecessarily delaying you?





ubiquitous said:


> Why should the dentist reduce his fee just because he is more efficient than you expected?
> 
> Although I know nothing about dentistry practice, I would not be surprised if increases in efficiency are achieved through investment in expensive technology. Maybe some of the dentists here can comment?
> 
> The level of his expertise is hardly dependent on the number of hours he spends with you?



Honestly, these replies take the biscuit. It's precisely an attitude like this that justifies RIP_OFF_IRELAND.


Any person providing a service should be paid for his service. This does not mean he/she should be allowed charge extortionate prices, like e1000 per hour.


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## ubiquitous (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ????*



Gone Fishin' said:


> Honestly, these replies take the biscuit. It's precisely an attitude like this that justifies RIP_OFF_IRELAND.



May I ask why, exactly?

In the above case, the dentist quoted a price in advance and the patient accepted it. If they had a problem with the price, this should have been expressed before availing of the service on those terms.  Its a bit pointless doing so after the event.

ps no need to shout.


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## markowitzman (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



> This does not mean he/she should be allowed charge extortionate prices, like e1000 per hour.


 Your extorionate is my paying the professional what they are worth to me. In my case I was extremely satisfied paying 600 for an hour with a tax specialist. If you want the best possible root canal you go to an endodontist anywhere (usa, gb, or hungary). You feel that paying 450-700 per hour to save a tooth is extortionate for an endodontist in Dublin. Similar fees would apply in major cities like london or the states. Maybe you could get an endodontist in Poland or Hungary that is US trained but I doubt it.
Do you think tax specialist is rip off also?


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## liteweight (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*

The point should be made that whether the professional is worth it or not isn't really the issue. Large numbers of people cannot afford these fees and find themselves falling between two stools, i.e. income not low enough to have it done for free but not high enough to be able to afford it. Just because other professionals in other areas are charging extortionate prices doesn't make it ok. It just means we're being ripped off by everyone.


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## Marion (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



> It just means we're being ripped off by everyone.



Oh dear! Are you sure you mean this?  Or is  it a little bit of *histrionics.* I love that word. 

Marion


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## Gone Fishin' (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ????*



ubiquitous said:


> May I ask why, exactly?
> 
> In the above case, the dentist quoted a price in advance and the patient accepted it. If they had a problem with the price, this should have been expressed before availing of the service on those terms.  Its a bit pointless doing so after the event.
> 
> ps no need to shout.



It's not pointless complaining after the event.

If a tradesman quotes you a price of e1000 for a job and get's it done in 2 hours, wouldn't you feel it was expensive, regardless of whether you agreed the price in advance?

e750 for a 45 minute procedure is absolutely outrageous. Don't you agree?

Just because any particular industry can charge extortionate fees doesn't mean they are either fair or justified.

(As for shouting? What are you on about?)


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## rabbit (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



markowitzman said:


> Do you think tax specialist is rip off also?


@ 600 an hour, thats 24,000 per week for a 40 hour week.   Whats so special about his knowledge ?  Does he think he is Gods gift to the economy, the arrogant greedy git ?


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## markowitzman (23 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



> @ 600 an hour, thats 24,000 per week for a 40 hour week. Whats so special about his knowledge ? Does he think he is Gods gift to the economy, the arrogant greedy git ?


 Rabbit I take that is a yes?!!
600 for the hour's advice was money well spent for me my wife and kids. 


> Large numbers of people cannot afford these fees and find themselves falling between two stools, i.e. income not low enough to have it done for free but not high enough to be able to afford it.


 Over 80% of the population have state subsidised dental care. Much of this routine care is free and it always mystifies me why more don't avail of this but rather wait for major problems to develop and then have to pay large sums to right the neglect!


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## liteweight (24 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



> Over 80% of the population have state subsidised dental care. Much of this routine care is free and it always mystifies me why more don't avail of this but rather wait for major problems to develop and then have to pay large sums to right the neglect!



You'd probably know better than I but I thought they're only entitled to have their teeth cleaned once a year and have a routine dental check. Extractions aren't covered AFAIK and only a percentage paid against fillings. White fillings are not covered and absolutely no cosmetic dentistry.



> Oh dear! Are you sure you mean this?  Or is  it a little bit ot *histrionics.*



Yes I meant it at the time. I do feel that professionals dealing with the public, not necessarily those employed by large companies, charge extortionate fees for one off transactions usually lasting no longer than an hour!   But as you can see, I do look after my teeth.


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## markowitzman (24 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*

twice yearly clean and once yearly check provided no gum disease.
So if one goes every six months and has xrays min of every 2 years and flosses and brush daily and avoid rubbish should be fine at practically no cost. Very hard to need a filling if one flosses daily, but few do!


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## ClubMan (24 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ????*



Gone Fishin' said:


> If a tradesman quotes you a price of e1000 for a job and get's it done in 2 hours, wouldn't you feel it was expensive, regardless of whether you agreed the price in advance?


Depends on the job.


> e750 for a 45 minute procedure is absolutely outrageous. Don't you agree?


If it's too high then the client/patient is free to decline and go elsewhere. There is no rip off if the price for the services to be rendered is stated clearly up front. 


> Just because any particular industry can charge extortionate fees doesn't mean they are either fair or justified.


No - but equally there is no rip off if the prices (no matter how high) are clearly stated in advance so that the buyer can decided whether or not s/he is happy to pay.


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## Gone Fishin' (26 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*

That is riduculous, CLUBMAN. You are fully justifying extortion and rip-off prices. Just because somebody agrees a price beforehand does not mean the person is not being ripped off. There is a rip-off if the price quoted is excessive for the goods or services offered.

Ireland is a country of precious little competition, dentists, pharmacists and doctors being prime examples of cartel-like operation where there is no price competition. The Govt is fully complicit in extortion and ripping people off, in areas like Car ROad tax, VRT and areas like out-patients' charges in hospitals. I have a bill for e60 for my child to get his broken arm in plaster. I resent this charge as I pay more than enough taxes to get such a treatment for free. (While drunks, layabouts, gougers, single mothers etc can all get similar treatments for free.) That is ripping me off.

If there was sufficient price competition, sufficient to allow the consumer make a choice based on price, then prices would be more realistic. Unfoirtunately, in Ireland this is not the case. Providers of services like dentistry can charge what they like knowing their old college mates will quote the same prices. That is ripping people off.


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## 56141 (26 Nov 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*

There is some good value for crowns if you shop around Abbey Clinic in Clonshaugh Dublin are doing one crown for €490 two for €750 and three for €1000. Think that goes for veneers as well.


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## rabbit (1 Dec 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



Happy_Harry said:


> Why does the Irish government not try and regulate the price of dentists, doctors and other medical practitioners.


Sometimes when I hear of some professional fees the title of Bob Geldofs song "Banana Republic" springs to mind.

I know of one accountancy firm which charged approx 19,000 plus vat , total approx € 23,000 recently, for what should have been no more than a few hours work. It was relatively simple work - valuing a small business whose accounts had already been prepared and paid for by the business.


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## ubiquitous (1 Dec 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



rabbit said:


> Sometimes when I hear of some professional fees the title of Bob Geldofs song "Banana Republic" springs to mind.
> 
> I know of one accountancy firm which charged approx 19,000 plus vat , total approx € 23,000 recently, for what should have been no more than a few hours work. It was relatively simple work - valuing a small business whose accounts had already been prepared and paid for by the business.



Of course large fees are never charged by professional firms in places like London, New York etc, only than Ireland. Yeah, right...

ps if you do even basic research on the subject, you will soon find out that the terms "valuing a business" and "simple" are mutually exclusive.


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## rabbit (1 Dec 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



ubiquitous said:


> Of course large fees are never charged by professional firms in places like London, New York etc, only than Ireland. Yeah, right....


 
I actually was chatting to a few friends from England and America recently, and the fees they pay to dentists, accountants etc are much less than we pay in " rip off Ireland", as Eddie Hobbs calls it. Of course there are those who charge high fees in New York and London, but the average overheads in a small town in Ireland - never mind the level of expertise or experience probably - are not like in the centre of Manhatten or London. 






ubiquitous said:


> ps if you do even basic research on the subject, you will soon find out that the terms "valuing a business" and "simple" are mutually exclusive.


 
So you think it should cost € 24,000 to value a very small business, whose accounts were already done by the same firm for many years ( and whose annual accountancy fees are not included in the € 24000 ) ?

Even when they make a ***** of the valuation and the client has to settle for less than half the value claimed ?


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## ubiquitous (1 Dec 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



rabbit said:


> I actually was chatting to a few friends from England and America recently, and the fees they pay to dentists, accountants etc are much less than we pay in " rip off Ireland", as Eddie Hobbs calls it. Of course there are those who charge high fees in New York and London, but the average overheads in a small town in Ireland - never mind the level of expertise or experience probably - are not like in the centre of Manhatten or London.



I wonder do they pay their financial advisors the €700 per hour that Mr. Hobbs has been reported as charging for consultations?

Are you saying that accountants in small Irish towns are charging similar rates as firms in Manhattan or London? I very much doubt if this is the case. There already exists a significant price difference for accountancy services between Dublin and the rest of Ireland. I doubt if Dublin rates are any higher than in the world's financial centres. The multinational orporations that are the bread and butter of the large accountancy and consulting firms would hardly tolerate any significant discrepancy in this regard?

Btw, I don't know why you are lumping together dentistry (a regulated profession in which only professionally qualified and accredited dentists can operate) and accountancy (an open profession in which anyone can set themselves up as an advisor or service provider, even if they have no qualifications, professional accreditation, experience or even expertise). 



rabbit said:


> So you think it should cost € 24,000 to value a very small business, whose accounts were already done by the same firm for many years ( and whose annual accountancy fees are not included in the € 24000 ) ?



I have no idea how much it would cost as I don't have any of the facts to hand. What I do know is that valuation of businesses is a very specialised area, and one which by its very nature is best left to specialist expertise. As a Chartered Accountant with almost 20 years experience in providing services and advice to small business customers, I would never even dream of attempting to value a business in a professional capacity, without reference to specialist valuation expertise.

If you have a complaint about the conduct of a particular firm in a particular situation then you should consider the various remedies open to you including reporting them to the appropriate regulatory body or institute. In the meantime, don't try to tar all with the same brush.


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## zag (1 Dec 2006)

Taking the pricing to extremes - assume I am a computer specialist and someone comes to me looking to get some work done.  They describe the problem, I 'ooh' and 'aah' for a while and tell them it's going to cost €10,000.  They think about it and agree because this problem is causing them production problems in work.

I go to their office, click here, click there, change a setting and everything suddenly starts working.  I have a smug grin on my face, having earned €10,000 for one minutes work.

They have agreed to the price beforehand, so by some definitions this is not a rip-off.

However, by another perfectly reasonable definition they have indeed been ripped off because they work involved for me in no way warranted €10,000 payment.  They had no way of knowing what was involved in the procedure and so estimated the cost of the procedure against the cost of not getting it done.

This is indeed market forces at work - demand for a skill in short supply driving up the price - but that does not also mean that it is not a rip-off.

If anybody believes that this example is not a rip-off then perhaps it is because they choose to believe there is no such thing as a rip-off, and if this is the case it is possibly worthless trying to argue whether *anything* is a rip-off if they are of the belief that nothing can be a rip-off.

z


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## Dearg Doom (1 Dec 2006)

Going to your office, clicking here, clicking there, changing a setting: €1.00
Knowing where to click and what setting needed to be changed:       €9,999.00


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## ubiquitous (1 Dec 2006)

zag said:


> This is indeed market forces at work - demand for a skill in short supply driving up the price - but that does not also mean that it is not a rip-off.



Hi zag
Market forces can be very effective in punishing scamsters and rip-off operators. If someone is ripping off their customers (ie taking advantage of customers to charge levels of fees that are unwarranted in the context of the service provided) they will find it difficult to sustain enough repeat business, no matter how wide their customer base. Businesses than cannot generate repeat business generally fail. On the other hand I think it is reasonable to conclude that businesses who enjoy repeat business from repeatedly satisfied customers, and who prosper by doing so, are not ripping off these customers, no matter how high their fees are. 

Btw, the same market forces work in relation to employees and employers. Not all employees are paid the same by their employers and some employees can command very high wages from their employers. Except perhaps in certain situations where managers control their own pay levels, it would be ludicrous to suggest that highly-paid employees are collectively  ripping off their employers by virtue of the salaries they command. 




Dearg Doom said:


> Going to your office, clicking here, clicking there, changing a setting: €1.00
> Knowing where to click and what setting needed to be changed:       €9,999.00



Or as someone put it to me recently 
"How long did it take you to do that" - "Five minutes , & twenty years"


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## rabbit (1 Dec 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



ubiquitous said:


> Are you saying that accountants in small Irish towns are charging similar rates as firms in Manhattan or London? I very much doubt if this is the case. .


 
No.  I doubt if most accountancy firms in Manhatten or London would have the neck to charge € 24,000 for what should have been a few hours work, but which was badly done and which I,in retrospect,  even as though I am not an accountant, could have made a better stab at.   




ubiquitous said:


> In the meantime, don't try to tar all with the same brush.


 
I am most certainly not.   No body which has thousands of members is the same.


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## markowitzman (2 Dec 2006)

> I am most certainly not. No body which has thousands of members is the same.


 You forgot dentists!


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## rabbit (2 Dec 2006)

Not all dentists are the exact same.  For example, some I know work half as hard and charge twice as much as other dentists.


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## Taximan (6 Dec 2006)

In fairness rabbit you have said yourself you are not an accountant I also suspect you do not work in corporate finance or else you might understand how difficult and complex it can be to value a private company. 

Would you make a better stab at a root canal as well or maybe some reconstructive surgery or even a complex vat case at the ECJ.  

Your paying for expertise that is limited in supply. Its basic Economics I am afraid.


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## Ceepee (6 Dec 2006)

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rabbit said:


> @ 600 an hour, thats 24,000 per week for a 40 hour week. Whats so special about his knowledge ? Does he think he is Gods gift to the economy, the arrogant greedy git ?


 
If I were taking in €600 per hour, I wouldn't bother working a 40 hour week.


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## rabbit (6 Dec 2006)

Taximan said:


> In fairness rabbit you have said yourself you are not an accountant I also suspect you do not work in corporate finance or else you might understand how difficult and complex it can be to value a private company.


 
I saw the accountants figures all the way and the mistakes they made.  The very small business was not even a private company - it was a sole trader.      
You must be an accountant yourself!    with " expertise that is limited in supply".      € 24,000 for basic economics I am afraid.


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## rabbit (6 Dec 2006)

*Re: Is this a record for dentist fees ?*



Ceepee said:


> If I were taking in €600 per hour, I wouldn't bother working a 40 hour week.


 
Thats not the point.


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## Gordanus (7 Dec 2006)

rabbit said:


> Not all dentists are the exact same.  For example, some I know work half as hard and charge twice as much as other dentists.



So?   If they all charge the same, they're a monopoly.

Just what do you consider a fair price per hour?   

Do you count in things like specialisations within dentristry, where the person put in a few extra years training?  Do you count the fact that they are top of their field and engaged in teaching the next generation?


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## markowitzman (6 Jan 2007)

> Do you count in things like specialisations within dentristry, where the person put in a few extra years training?


 at 70k per annum tuition fees and no income?


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## sunrock (6 Jan 2007)

A lot of people have become very rich in ireland in the last 10 years due to increased property prices and plenty of employment.
Professonal and quaified educated people want to be superrich also,so we have very high fees,especially where the professionals have a representative body to control the numbers.
We have many polish construction and hotel workers ,but the polish dentists or teachers or doctors are restricted from working here in their professions by silly rules.
All our graduates think they should get a big salary and all this contributes to professional class wage inflation.It doesn`t help that we have an expensive country.
Undoubtedly talented and experienced people deserve to be well rewarded, but what is not so good is where an accountant or solicitor can charge an exorbitant fee ,justifying it by saying they saved a "captive" client even more money....for example during the big tax amnesty   accountants could claim that they saved a client from a tax bill of 40k and charge him 10k...even though the work took maybe an hour .
FARMERS and a lot of private sector workers  have seen low wage increases.
A grasping mentality has taken over our educated elite.....they all feel they deserve big money.Recently on the news,unniversity top dogs felt they needed a big rise....a headhunter gave his tuppence....if these  univ presidents were in the private sector,they would command a salary of 300k+.
Well why don`t they quit their univ jobs and apply for private sector jobs?
Simple... they want to be payed for their status , not for doing any tough private sector work.Directorships etc are reserved for people who have done big favors such as ex politicos.
Despite a vast amt of graduates which should restrain salaries ,salaries and fees are at very high levels.I humbly suggest that competition is stymied by restricting the amount of entrants to either private or public sectors so remuneration remains very high.
APPrentice solicitors can`t get positions.
Our gov won`t hire our unemployed teachers for fear of upsetting permanent teachers....a small reduction in the perm teachers salary would see 10000 more teachers employed at no extra cost and at great benefit to our students education.
Our teachers look at solicitors and accountants....these in turn are casting envious glances at tribunal barristers and property millionaires.
Rant over.


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## RainyDay (7 Jan 2007)

sunrock said:


> Our gov won`t hire our unemployed teachers for fear of upsetting permanent teachers....a small reduction in the perm teachers salary would see 10000 more teachers employed at no extra cost and at great benefit to our students education.


Why on earth should the existing teachers be expected to pay the price for proper staffing? If we need more teachers, they should be hired and paid for from general taxation.


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## sunrock (8 Jan 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Why on earth should the existing teachers be expected to pay the price for proper staffing? If we need more teachers, they should be hired and paid for from general taxation.


 
Nothing against teachers who are a fine lot.
HOWEVER just using them as an example of a section of our workforce who are cosseted,protected, unfireable and not subject to competition from their unemployed counterparts.Into the bargain they get benchmarking and very good pensions.
The above argument was used in the 80s when we had high unemployment. The people in the "protected" sector did not want to pay extra taxation to have more employment.....inevitably people like teachers would have to pay more taxation to facilitate this process and of course they were opposed.
Yet the private employees are in most cases exposed to full wage competition both from irish and foreign workers.
There are clearly double standards at work here.


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## RainyDay (8 Jan 2007)

So if you want to level the playing field for teachers, how would you propose that their stock options are calculated?


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## rabbit (9 Jan 2007)

sunrock said:


> Nothing against teachers who are a fine lot.
> HOWEVER just using them as an example of a section of our workforce who are cosseted,protected, unfireable and not subject to competition from their unemployed counterparts.Into the bargain they get benchmarking and very good pensions.
> The above argument was used in the 80s when we had high unemployment. The people in the "protected" sector did not want to pay extra taxation to have more employment.....inevitably people like teachers would have to pay more taxation to facilitate this process and of course they were opposed.
> Yet the private employees are in most cases exposed to full wage competition both from irish and foreign workers.
> There are clearly double standards at work here.


 
Agree with most of what you write except I think not all teachers are a fine lot.  There are a few who are not.  Some have cost the lives of their students dearly.   Yet they are unfireable as you say, they have long long holidays, good pensions  and often do other jobs / nixers etc.


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## Megan (9 Jan 2007)

Have to agree re: teachers and other jobs. Take all those male teachers/ex gaa players that are radio/tv presenters. As the gaa championship runs doing the summer months it means these teachers can work full time as presenters as well as getting thier holiday pay as teachers. I thought they needed long holidays to recover from the hard slog of teaching during the year!!!


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## ClubMan (9 Jan 2007)

Megan said:


> Take all those male teachers/ex gaa players that are radio/tv presenters.


Hardly the majority of teachers though?


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## Megan (9 Jan 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Hardly the majority of teachers though?


 An

No I am sure not but I know of woodwoek teachers that work in the building trade during the summer, irish teachers that work in the irish colleges during the summer and I am sure there are other examples out there. Anybody know any more?


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## ClubMan (9 Jan 2007)

Why not train and work as a teacher if you think it's such a grand life?


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## DrMoriarty (9 Jan 2007)

I'd recommend a little  on the matter first.
The average 'shelf life' of a secondary school teacher is about seven years, and falling.


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## ashambles (9 Jan 2007)

Do any of those links refer to Irish teachers Dr Moriarty? They look like US links which is comparing apples and oranges since  Irish teachers are amonst the best paid and work the least days of comparable countries. 

I really doubt the shelf life of an Irish secondary teacher is 7 years, I personally know of none who've quit or changed career - I'd be surprised if the attrition rate was much higher than zero.


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## DrMoriarty (9 Jan 2007)

Here are some , then. Or have a read of the short article on the front page of [broken link removed] HSA/_Irish Independent_ report? (.pdf format)


> _[FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD][...] according [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]to Department of Education [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]figures, in 2004 only 16pc of [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]teachers worked until the [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]retirement age of 65. Of the [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]484 teachers who retired that [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]year, 11pc (or 54 individuals) [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]did so due to poor health and [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]it is believed a significant [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]number of these cases were [/FONT][FONT=NewsMiller+FOZEPD]stress-related.[/FONT][/FONT]_


I last taught at secondary level in 1986/87, before — yes — getting out. I didn't want to end up like some I saw around me. I'd venture the job has probably become a lot _more_ stressful in the intervening 20 years.


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## ashambles (9 Jan 2007)

Somewhat ironically most of those links are to do with teaching handling stress, but I'd accept that teaching secondary school kids effectively is a challenging job. 

I doubt 16% make it to the 65 retirement age just due to ill health or stress (as the II article seemingly implies), in reality the attractive retirement options for teachers from the age of 55 might have just a little to do with the figure. 

Anyway this has nothing to do with professional fees....


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## rabbit (10 Jan 2007)

Megan said:


> An
> 
> No I am sure not but I know of woodwork teachers that work in the building trade during the summer, irish teachers that work in the irish colleges during the summer and I am sure there are other examples out there. Anybody know any more?


 
Lots.  As one of them said to me over a pint once, they have so much free time they need something more to occupy themselves rather than the odd grind.  I know a PE teacher who is involved in teaching sailing in the summer, someone else who helps out in his brothers tourist shop, someone else who teaches surfing, someone else who helps out on his family farm etc etc. 
In third level I know lots of people from Engineering and Architecture departments who do loads of nixers in the quantity surveying / house plans / supervising construction etc etc area.    A fellow who works in the I.T.   area does nixers fixing peoples computers, and another teacher does homeopathy.


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## DrMoriarty (10 Jan 2007)

ashambles said:


> Anyway this has nothing to do with professional fees....


Agreed!


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## sunrock (10 Jan 2007)

Teachers are just one example of public servants who have a secure job with a good income and conditions etc. I don`t doubt that teaching can be a strssful job. Teachers are on a set salary and so don`t get the occasional wind fall fees and quite often very high fees that other professions charge.I also applaud professionals esp. teachers who spend their hols either playing,coaching or organising sporting activities.


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## rabbit (10 Jan 2007)

sunrock said:


> .I also applaud professionals esp. teachers who spend their hols either *playing,coaching or organising* sporting activities.


 
First , playing : you applaud teachers who spend 3 months paid holidays  *playing *sporting activities.     They would not pay me to spend 3 months indulging in my sport, and they would not applaud me for doing so.   

Those who I know who spend their summers teaching sport do it for the money.....nice cash business.     I know of one case where a teacher in the summer competes in business against someone who tries to make a living out of the sport all year round, who pays his taxes and does not have a teachers salary to subsidise him in the summer.   Not really a level playing pitch and nothing to really applaud about.


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## RainyDay (10 Jan 2007)

rabbit said:


> I know of one case where a teacher in the summer competes in business against someone who tries to make a living out of the sport all year round, who pays his taxes and does not have a teachers salary to subsidise him in the summer.   Not really a level playing pitch and nothing to really applaud about.


This is absolutely fair competition, and of course the teach pays his taxes as well. The teacher's salary is not a subsidy. It is his salary - payment for work done. His work happens to be concentrated between September and May, and his salary is spread evenly over the year.

Given the level of enthusiasm expressed on this thread for the teacher's lifestyle, one might wonder why these posters aren't queueing up to join the profession?


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## Megan (11 Jan 2007)

RainyDay said:


> This is absolutely fair competition, and of course the teach pays his taxes as well. The teacher's salary is not a subsidy. It is his salary - payment for work done. His work happens to be concentrated between September and May, and his salary is spread evenly over the year.
> 
> Given the level of enthusiasm expressed on this thread for the teacher's lifestyle, one might wonder why these posters aren't queueing up to join the profession?



How do you know but we are some of the teachers that we are talking about. I am talking from first hand experience once removed.


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## rabbit (11 Jan 2007)

RainyDay said:


> This is absolutely fair competition, and of course the teach pays his taxes as well.


Do all teachers pay tax on all of their summer cash work ? 



RainyDay said:


> The teacher's salary is not a subsidy. It is his salary - payment for work done. His work happens to be concentrated between September and May, and his salary is spread evenly over the year.


 
I wish everyone else could "concentrate" their work between Sept.and May, and have loads of long holidays paid for by the taxpayer.





RainyDay said:


> Given the level of enthusiasm expressed on this thread for the teacher's lifestyle, one might wonder why these posters aren't queueing up to join the profession?


If everyone worked 9 to 4 with 3 months off in the summer, weeks off at xmas, plenty of bank holidays, great pensions, etc, what state would the state be in ?

In fairness to teachers, there are some good ones who deserve what they get, but I have come across some awful ones as well, who should have been fired long ago but of course were not nor could they have been.


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## sunrock (11 Jan 2007)

I was referring to those people from all walks of life who coach kids in sports for no remuneration....a teacher involved with a local gaa or soccer club is an example.
Rabbit,what sport are you involved in. Obviously if you are in direct competition with a person who is offering services for free ,it is not the best position to be in.


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## rabbit (11 Jan 2007)

sunrock said:


> I was referring to those people from all walks of life who coach kids in sports for no remuneration....a teacher involved with a local gaa or soccer club is an example.
> Rabbit,what sport are you involved in. Obviously if you are in direct competition with a person who is offering services for free ,it is not the best position to be in.


 
I never said I was involved in a sport or in competition with anyone who is offering services for free.   We are not talking about people giving their time for free.   People from all walks of life give their time for free to various clubs etc.    That has nothing to do with it.    The teachers who do paid jobs in the summer and various nixers and grinds all year round do not do it for free.    Read what I wrote more carefully.   eg " I know a PE teacher who is involved in teaching sailing in the summer, someone else who helps out in his brothers tourist shop, someone else who teaches surfing, someone else who helps out on his family farm etc etc. "


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## RainyDay (11 Jan 2007)

Megan said:


> How do you know but we are some of the teachers that we are talking about. I am talking from first hand experience once removed.



I have absolutely no idea what this post means.


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## Megan (12 Jan 2007)

RainyDay said:


> I have absolutely no idea what this post means.


 
Given the level of enthusiasm expressed on this thread for the teacher's lifestyle, one might wonder why these posters aren't queueing up to join the profession?

The above is what you had in your post.
I am just saying how do you know that some of the other posters are not teachers or family members of teachers. (So why would they be queueing up to join if they are allready there?)
You seem to employ that we dont know what we are talking about.


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## sunrock (12 Jan 2007)

Oh to be a tribunal barrister!
Here we have a bunch of bigwigs discussing the corrupt politicians and buisnessmen of irelands recent past.
These professionals make  a fortune for their pontificating  and of course nothing much gets really done never mind anyone having to get some free time behind bars.
The way they are stringing  out this gravy train ....god knows how many more years they`ll get out of it....is beginning to make the illicit gains of our top white collar crooks look like a chip shop owners ransom.
If you can`t beat them.....might as well join them.


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## RainyDay (12 Jan 2007)

Megan said:


> I am just saying how do you know that some of the other posters are not teachers or family members of teachers.


How do you know that some of them are?


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## DrMoriarty (19 Jan 2007)

I'm loath to resuscitate the whole 'teachers have a cushy number' debate, but this report might be of interest (free registration required).


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## Sunny (19 Jan 2007)

DrMoriarty said:


> I'm loath to resuscitate the whole 'teachers have a cushy number' debate, but this report might be of interest (free registration required).


 
Like you I am loathe to take part in the cushy number debate and the report does make startling reading. Just to play devils advocate though, how much of the indisipline is down to poor teaching or teacher training. I didn't exactly go to the nicest school in the world and it used to always amaze me what the difference in behaviour of pupils was in different classes with different teachers. Boys who openly abused one teacher wouldn't say boo to another teacher. Seems to me that there are an awful lot of people teaching who are not cut out for the profession (which is not an easy one) which leads to higher stress etc..


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## Purple (19 Jan 2007)

The report states that  _"four in five teachers (83pc) reported what they regarded as unacceptable and calculated idleness or work avoidance."_
Can anyone clarify if this was referring to pupils of teachers?


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## Sunny (19 Jan 2007)

Purple said:


> The report states that _"four in five teachers (83pc) reported what they regarded as unacceptable and calculated idleness or work avoidance."_
> Can anyone clarify if this was referring to pupils of teachers?


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