# Serious Defeciencies in Public Health System (esp A&E).



## amtc (22 Nov 2012)

My dad unfortunately collapsed last night and was brought to a Dublin hospital through A&E. 

Although he is feeling better, the treatment has been appalling. 

He has been told he will have to stay in for a week or so. Although my parents have private health insurance because he came in through A&E it's public. 

Now after 28 hours he is still on a trolley. The hospital is full of very elderly patients - the cubicle next to my dad has a 99 year woman who is completely incontinent and the urine was on my dad's floor when I saw him today. At least he has a cubicle as the one nurse who I spoke to who actually listened pointed out a man who had been on a trolley for a week in a corridor! The first thing my dad was told - out of the ambulance - was to take off any valuables such as his watch as they had breakins. Then he asked for a pillow to sit up on the trolley this morning and they had run out (the answer I got was 'they are like golddust'! I had to go and buy one. Last night he slept for 30 minutes and because on a trolley you slip down it a nurse rapped his feet and told him to sit up. 

I have had a back operation a few weeks ago and can't stand. I asked for a chair and the porters who were playing games on an iPad said it was against protocol. There were five stools behind the reception desk empty. I ended up getting an empty bin and turning it upside down to sit down. My dad didn't even get a glass of water today, he is on no medication is not required to fast. When I checked the machine on the wall, he actually wasn't hooked up anything as they were waiting on an ultrasound reading. Eventually my mum got our GP to get the results through a contact as this was 25 hours after, but noone told us or my dad. I found a cobweb on it.Went to get a sandwich and tea from the shop and they tried flogging me a hat and scarf!

He's more stressed about being there rather than the collapse.

Parking is 2.20 a hour. There is very limited public transport. This is a site that was rumoured to be the National Children's Hospital contender.


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## Bronte (22 Nov 2012)

Nothing of which you have written would surprise me one bit. (Have a look at my Beaumont thread - and I was very circumspect on there)  

Advice, stay with your dad as much as possible and try and take care of him and keep at them.  Those who shout loudest, ie become an irritant to them, get seen first so as to get them out of the way.  By the standards I have abroad I would consider Ireland third world.  

I feel very sorry for what you have to see and more importantly for what your dad has to live through.


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## orka (22 Nov 2012)

It's a terrible indictment on our health service that I'm sure pretty much every reader of this thread got as far as 'took my father to A&E' and knew what was coming next.  That is mine and my husband's biggest concern living in Ireland - having to take one of our parents to A&E because experiences for older people there seem to be universely appalling.  It sickens me to think about the amount of money spent on health in this country and yet old people live in fear at the prospect of a trip to A&E to be made better.


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## demoivre (22 Nov 2012)

amtc said:


> My dad unfortunately collapsed last night and was brought to a Dublin hospital through A&E.
> 
> Although he is feeling better, the treatment has been appalling.
> 
> He has been told he will have to stay in for a week or so. Although my parents have private health insurance because he came in through A&E it's public.



You should still have been offered the choice of going private or public, the difference being that, if your father's insurance entitles him to a private room, and there is one available after he is admitted, he should get it. His treatment will be the same though ! It's also in the hospital's interest to treat your father as a private patient !!


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## Firefly (22 Nov 2012)

orka said:


> *It sickens me to think about the amount of money spent on health in this country and yet old people live in fear at the prospect of a trip to A&E to be made better*.


 

+1m. It's a mess beyond repair IMO and unlikely to change given the position of the vested interests. Not being flippant & absolutely no offence meant at all to the OP but the phrase "No country for old men" seems apt.


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## truthseeker (22 Nov 2012)

I feel awful for you OP. If there is any chance at all of taking your Dad out and bringing him to a fully private clinic like the Beacon or the Hermitage that his health insurance would cover, then do it. The problem with trying to go private in a public hospital is the lack of beds and the long wait to decide what is to be done at all. I agree with Bronte, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

I posted recently about my father in laws horrendous experience in a public A&E. One poster in particular was very aggressively questioning everything I said and insinuating that I was lying or being hysterical. I wasnt. He left after 8 hours and still hadnt seen anyone except triage and was in pretty much the same conditions you describe except we were not allowed into him. He saw his GP later that afternoon and was admitted privately by one of his consultants for investigation the next week.

I have seen my father in law become more ill after the stress of a public A&E visit - so do keep an eye that the stress is not too much.


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## amtc (22 Nov 2012)

Another night on the trolley. 

He was told bad news at 11pm last night without any relative there. Couldn't get in touch until my mam went down this morning. 

Because of the nature of the news the answer we got was that he needed specialist equipment should anything happen which would only be availble in A&E or ICU. 

I'm off to do battle.


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## truthseeker (22 Nov 2012)

Best of luck amtc, I hope things are going ok for you and your family.


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## amtc (23 Nov 2012)

Thanks to all for their good wishes....

...the point re going private is appreciated but my dad (who's 74) is on my mum's policy and she retires in 2 weeks and the renewal date is next week she decided to cancel it, having had a full MOT and hip replacement this year. 

Finally got a bed tonight for father, mind you by this stage he is so drugged up that he started an impromptu sing song in a (predominantly female - which I thought was odd ) ward. Accomplished this by much batting of eyelashes at bed manager and making myself a nuisance to doctors. Desperate times call for desperate measures!!!

On the way out, met my uncle on the way with his mother so he asked me to deploy similar measures. Bed within 2 hours, across from my dad.

All's well that ends well, now on with treating the clots in veins and arteries.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2012)

As long as the Heath Service is run for the benifit of the people who work there things will never change.


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## dam099 (26 Nov 2012)

Could they take out a new policy or change their decision and renew?The waiting time to be eligible to claim is waived if you had an equivalent policy within the last 13 weeks. If they did it soon there might not even be a break in cover.


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## amtc (27 Nov 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions. 

It appears to be even more complex than I thought - 

- Dad after being on ward ( for one night) was sent home, and has to present himself daily for injections. Stupidly we took that as being discharged, but it's simply because he lives within 10 minutes of the hospital (this is the public bit - right leg)

- He also has a melanoma on his other leg, treated through the Hermitage. 

VHI will only cover one leg. 

So we're in bizarre situation where

Right leg - Public (blanchardstown)
Left leg - Private (Hermitage)

Meanwhile mother and I are practically running a transport system! 

Feel free to close - just wanted to highlight the stupidity.


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## Leper (27 Nov 2012)

What has happened to Amtc's dad appears to be the norm and not the exception. I have been a victim to A+E's system also and it was not a good experience.

The problem did not start yesterday, it has been active for many years and little or no improvement happened since. I am sick of listening to Hospital Hierarchy advising that things are going to change for the better. The things changed alright, but for the worse.

I am not convinced that the problems are unfixable. Afterall, our population is relatively small. The UK has a population many times larger than ours and their NHS seems to be the envy of people here. 

Somebody suggested vested interests above as the cause of the problem. If this is the case (and I am not arguing against the suggestion) the vested interests situations need to be attacked. Can anybody say who or what these vested interests are and how their interests are manifested?

[For the record:- The NHS system in UK offers GP visits, hospitalisation, prescriptions for £10.00 per year]


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2012)

amtc said:


> - Dad after being on ward ( for one night) was sent home, and has to present himself daily for injections. Stupidly we took that as being discharged, but it's simply because he lives within 10 minutes of the hospital (this is the public bit - right leg)
> 
> - He also has a melanoma on his other leg, treated through the Hermitage.
> 
> ...


 
Bonkers, when I read that I thought it was beyond bonkers.  Like Leper said could we analyse it to figure out what exactly is going on.  And to see in whose benefit it is to keep this crazy situation.  

Why does the VHI only cover one leg?

Why does your dad have to be treated in two separate hospitals?  Why doesn't the Blanchardstown hospital (name please) treat the melanomia, or do they not have a facility for that?  How would he travel to hospital if he had no family.  Would the public system, or the VHI cover taxi's?


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## truthseeker (27 Nov 2012)

Bronte said:


> How would he travel to hospital if he had no family.  Would the public system, or the VHI cover taxi's?



They probably would have kept him in if this was the case, although he would be expected to make his own arrangements re The Hermitage.


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## demoivre (27 Nov 2012)

The VHI plan the op's father is in only covers specific outpatient procedures by the looks of it.


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## celebtastic (27 Nov 2012)

Purple said:


> As long as the Heath Service is run for the benifit of the people who work there things will never change.




+1

Too true.

The unions have a lot to answer for.


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## amtc (28 Nov 2012)

Just wanted to make it clear that I have no complaint about the standard of medical care in Connolly Hospital - just the lack of joined up thinking. 

My dad's fairly together but only that Mam and I were there we communicated the full history. I feel sorry for those who don't have that support. 

My issue is with the administrators. First and most important event was to print off labels and stick them on lots of folders. Walk round carrying folders and generally look important. As I said my only real issue was not having anywhere to sit (as I had two discs removed a month ago).

Why one leg private/one public? One was referral by GP and one through A&E. That said, once you got into the system the standard of care was the same. But you'd have to be clued in. And have someone fighting your corner.


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## Leper (28 Nov 2012)

amtc said:


> My issue is with the administrators. First and most important event was to print off labels and stick them on lots of folders. Walk round carrying folders and generally look important. As I said my only real issue was not having anywhere to sit (as I had two discs removed a month ago).
> 
> Why one leg private/one public? One was referral by GP and one through A&E. That said, once you got into the system the standard of care was the same. But you'd have to be clued in. And have someone fighting your corner.


 
The administrative issue:- (a) Labels are printed off to speed up the system. If they were not printed they would have to be hand written. There are many labels to be printed off per hospital chart (your father's history while there).

(b) Your father's previous hospital history must be obtained fairly fast. Otherwise, the medical staff cannot treat your parent fully. Remember they are liable to prosecution if they mistreat the patient. It is the administrative staff which sources the hospital chart.

(c) Administrative Staff must move around A+E to seek information about various patients and not just your father.

(d) Administrative Staff work Reception also. Please be aware they are subject to quite a lot of abuse (see the signs) and people tend to attack them rather than the Medical Staff.

(e) The Medical Staff and the patients need the support of the administrative people for various tasks. Remember Medical Staff do not want to do administrative work.

Please dont blame the Administrative staff or the Medical staff. It does not stand up and none of them are scurrying about trying to look important. Please retract.

2. The one leg private one leg public issue might be at the core of all this. This was not caused by the administrative staff. When you are aiming your gun, please ensure you aim it at the right people.


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## amtc (29 Nov 2012)

Leper said:


> (d)  Please dont blame the Administrative staff or the Medical staff. It does not stand up and none of them are scurrying about trying to look important. Please retract.



So why couldn't I get a chair when several available? Three weeks after getting two discs out I have to stand while the porters stand outside smoking, on their ipads?

Was specifically told that legs in different systems were not an issue,


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## Leper (29 Nov 2012)

amtc said:


> so why couldn't I get a chair when several available? Three weeks after getting two discs out I have to stand while the porters stand outside smoking, on their ipads?


 
The inability to supply you with a chair has nothing whatsoever to do with the administrative or portering staff or medical staff. Anybody in A+E will inform you the patient comes first (sometimes I dispute this). Furthermore, people are entitled to a break. You are splitting hairs here and have been diverted from your main issue which now appears to be watered down. You had my sympathy at the start of this subject and now with respect I wonder if you are telling the full truth.

Somebody earlier pointed out the faults of our health system rests with vested interests. Somebody else blamed the trades unions (another mistake).

If you are looking for a target to shoot at, please pick the correct target and stop complaining about your relatively minor side issues about a chair.


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## Firefly (29 Nov 2012)

Leper said:


> Somebody earlier pointed out the faults of our health system rests with vested interests. Somebody else blamed the trades unions (another mistake).
> 
> If you are looking for a target to shoot at, please pick the correct target and stop complaining about your relatively minor side issues about a chair.


 
Hi Leper,


Just out of curiosity..who do you blame for the state of the health system?


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## Purple (29 Nov 2012)

Firefly said:


> Hi Leper,
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity..who do you blame for the state of the health system?



It seems that it's not the fault of the people who work in it or run it so I'm also curious.


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## Leper (29 Nov 2012)

Firefly said:


> Hi Leper,
> 
> 
> Just out of curiosity..who do you blame for the state of the health system?


 
I am going to answer this question as best I can and to the best of my ability. Please bear in mind I do not have a university education and never aspired to the heights of any kind of senior management anywhere.

The Health Service did not drop into its existing dreadful state overnight. It happened over many years. I remember a time when people from the Irish Health Service were recruited from foreign health services to improve healthcare in those countries. Those countries now have health services that are the envy of us.

I am not going to go down the road of the Blame Game either. We have had enough of that. The criticism of the OP of several low paid HSE grades is testament to somebody believing what vested interests are telling him. Furthermore, we hear daily of front-line services and back-room support staff. I believe the whole service should work as a cohesive team. This is something ignored by politicians and the media - divide and conquer syndrome.

The UK has a terrific health service. If we copy what they do well, then we are on the road to restoring our Health Service to what it should be.I dont know why the HSE is not going this direction already. Afterall, our population would comfortably fit into the greater Manchester area and we would not be even noticed. Obviously, the effort in Ireland must be a scaled down replica. We need private hospitals and public hospitals to be run by private and public interests respectively. 
In Ireland we have hospitals that are simultaneously private and public. It appears this is not working and until senior management start managing we are doomed to failure.

I hope this answers the questions poised.


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## DB74 (30 Nov 2012)

As far as I can see, the problem with the Health Service is that all the vested interest groups within the system recognise that there are huge problems that need to be sorted in the Health Service but none of them are prepared to be the first group to make the necessary sacrifices to sort those problems. They all want one (or even all) of the other groups to be dealt with first before the problems with their own group is looked at.

I would roughly lump those groups as (in alphabetical order)

Administration
Consultants
Doctors
Nurses


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## celebtastic (30 Nov 2012)

I would roughly lump those groups as (in alphabetical order)

Administration
Consultants
Doctors
Nurses

Patients?

Taxpayers??

The latter two categories are so often treated with contempt

Little wonder the country is in the mess that its in


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## Complainer (1 Dec 2012)

It's a bit worrying that for most people the solution seems to be 'get to private hospital' (and leave the plebs to suffer in the mayhem) rather than actually fixing the problem.


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## celebtastic (1 Dec 2012)

The amount we are paying in public sector salaries, and not just in the Health service, is now completely unaffordable.

If the government had a spine they would protect delivery of front line services while cutting ALL public sector pay (inc the dole, Childrens Allowance and the OAP) by 10% across the piece. 

"We're all in it together" -- isnt that right?


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## Deiseblue (1 Dec 2012)

celebtastic said:


> The amount we are paying in public sector salaries, and not just in the Health service, is now completely unaffordable.
> 
> If the government had a spine they would protect delivery of front line services while cutting ALL public sector pay (inc the dole, Childrens Allowance and the OAP) by 10% across the piece.
> 
> "We're all in it together" -- isnt that right?



Your wish is granted & then some !

Public Sector salaries have been cut by an average of 15 %.


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## Complainer (1 Dec 2012)

celebtastic said:


> The amount we are paying in public sector salaries, and not just in the Health service, is now completely unaffordable.
> 
> If the government had a spine they would protect delivery of front line services while cutting ALL public sector pay (inc the dole, Childrens Allowance and the OAP) by 10% across the piece.
> 
> "We're all in it together" -- isnt that right?



I don't get the logic of 'we're all in it together, but only one sector will take the pain'. If we're all in it together, then we should all be sharing the pain - right? So income tax increases, and cuts to pension tax relief and lots of other tax reliefs would ensure that all others who are still earning will share the pain, given that the public sector have already given their across the board 15% pay cut.


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## celebtastic (2 Dec 2012)

Complainer said:


> I don't get the logic of 'we're all in it together, but only one sector will take the pain'. If we're all in it together, then we should all be sharing the pain - right? ...



Not while public sector earnings are almost 50% higher than the equivalent in the private sector:
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/re...cuments/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q22012.pdf

Not while automatic pay increments of €200m are doled out based mainly on length of service - effectively a pay rise by the back door

Not while Brendan Howlin, a former trade union official who could only find  €3.5million of savings on €1.1billion of allowances. In July, he stated  that increments were ‘core pay’. So, pay rises are actually now part of core  pay according to our government.

With the private sector seeing hundreds of businesses going bankrupt each year - and the dole and emigration queues lengthening, there needs to be a radical overhaul of public sector pay and pensions. 

The unions seemed happy enough with that for new entrants - why not have the same rules for existing public servants? As they keep telling us: "we are all in this together"


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## celebtastic (2 Dec 2012)

Fully agree that pension tax relief, and universal benefits (OAP and Childrens Allowance uplift for second and later kids) should be dramitcally cut.


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## Leper (2 Dec 2012)

The subject is now turning into a Public Service Bashing Exercise. Like I said earlier "Divide and Conquer" syndrome predominates. . . . and still there are none of the people who caused Ireland's mess in prison. Worse again we retired them, gave them large lump sums and huge pensions to boot. Terrific little country we are and we keep pointing our guns at small increments for many who are on the breadline. Thank you corrupt politicians and corrupt and avaricious bankers.


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## celebtastic (2 Dec 2012)

So any attempt to discuss the immorality and unaffordability of pay levels being maintained, while services are cut to the bone is a public sector bashing?

Its that sort of divide and conquer argument that completely stifles debate on the elephant in the room.


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## Complainer (2 Dec 2012)

celebtastic said:


> Not while public sector earnings are almost 50% higher than the equivalent in the private sector:
> http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/re...cuments/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q22012.pdf


That survey shows nothing of the sort. You haven't controlled for job function, or qualifications, or experience, or skill. Simply put, the public sector does not have large numbers of unskilled or no skilled front line staff, like waiting staff, retail staff, call centre jockeys etc etc. So it is not at all surprising that AVERAGE earnings are higher in the public sector, because AVERAGE job functions are higher, and AVERAGE qualifications are higher. That's the danger of averages.



celebtastic said:


> Not while automatic pay increments of €200m are doled out based mainly on length of service - effectively a pay rise by the back door
> 
> Not while Brendan Howlin, a former trade union official who could only find  €3.5million of savings on €1.1billion of allowances. In July, he stated  that increments were ‘core pay’. So, pay rises are actually now part of core  pay according to our government.


Howlin was never a trade union official. Increments are dependant on performance, and apply generally to the first ten years of employment at any particular grade only. They generally apply to the younger, more junior staff, the newer entrants that you express concern about below. And yes, increments are part of core pay. And the slavish Irish Indo-driven focus on increments is missing the point entirely, but do feel free to keep banging the drum.



celebtastic said:


> With the private sector seeing hundreds of businesses going bankrupt each year - and the dole and emigration queues lengthening, there needs to be a radical overhaul of public sector pay and pensions.
> 
> The unions seemed happy enough with that for new entrants - why not have the same rules for existing public servants? As they keep telling us: "we are all in this together"





celebtastic said:


> The unions seemed happy enough with that for new entrants - why not have the same rules for existing public servants? As they keep telling us: "we are all in this together"


How do you conclude that the unions are 'happy enough' with the current arrangements for new entrants?



celebtastic said:


> With the private sector seeing hundreds of businesses going bankrupt each year - and the dole and emigration queues lengthening, there needs to be a radical overhaul of public sector pay and pensions.


We certainly need a radical overhaul all right. Even the IMF agree that the current austerity model is not working. http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/imf-we-got-effect-of-austerity-wrong-210285.html And you seem to want to drive further down the wrong road.


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## Firefly (3 Dec 2012)

Complainer said:


> It's a bit worrying that for most people the solution seems to be 'get to private hospital' (and leave the plebs to suffer in the mayhem) rather than actually fixing the problem.


 
I agree, the solution seems to be to get to a private hospital alright, alas, the 20 thousand million we spend on the public system doesn't seem to be working.

As for who fixes the problem (and I'm amazed you agree there is a problem). I hardly think it should be the OPs father stuck on a trolley do you?


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## Bronte (3 Dec 2012)

Leper said:


> If you are looking for a target to shoot at, please pick the correct target and stop complaining about your relatively minor side issues about a chair.


 
Don't you think that whether people are on a break or not that they could show some common decency and get a man who cannot stand a chair?

I've some more questions about this story, but it's not asked directly of you Leper for the replies.

Why are there no pillows available in a Dublin hospital?

Why would urine by left on the floor and not immediately be cleaned up?

Why would someone have to spend a week on a trolly?

Why would a nurse rap someone on the feet to wake them up instead of gently waking them?

What protocal prevents a staff member from giving a chair to a visitor? 

Why would a patient not be given water?

Why would a patient's family member have to contact a GP to get test results from a hospital, why in other words weren't the results immediately given to the patient by the staff? Is this not what happens in hospitals?


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## Firefly (3 Dec 2012)

First you say 


Complainer said:


> Simply put, *the public sector does not have large numbers of* unskilled or no skilled front line staff, like waiting staff, retail staff, *call centre jockeys*


 
Then you say (different thread)



Complainer said:


> I've had some success using the *Garda Trafficwatch* phone line. *You log the issue initially with their call centre staff*, and then it gets transferred (by fax - hello 1983!) to the relevant station. I get the impression that there is a bit of pressure somewhere to follow up on the logged issues.


 
Why not refer to the former as "staff" then, or to the latter as "jockeys"?


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## Bronte (3 Dec 2012)

I'm a bit lost.  What is a call center jockey?


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## Firefly (3 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> *I'm a bit lost*. What is a call center jockey?


 
That makes two of us Bronte. It sounds like a derogatory term to me but perhaps we'll be enlightened?


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## Purple (3 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> I'm a bit lost.  What is a call center jockey?



They are the multi-lingual technical support engineers that offer high level support to product users all over the world. They are, obviously, less skilled than the people who push beds around hospitals all day (since it seems sweeping generalisations are ok when applied to the private sector).


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## Leper (3 Dec 2012)

1. Don't you think that whether people are on a break or not that they could show some common decency and get a man who cannot stand a chair?

I've some more questions about this story, but it's not asked directly of you Leper for the replies. 

2.Why are there no pillows available in a Dublin hospital?

3.Why would urine by left on the floor and not immediately be cleaned up?

4.Why would someone have to spend a week on a trolly?

5.Why would a nurse rap someone on the feet to wake them up instead of gently waking them?

6.What protocal prevents a staff member from giving a chair to a visitor? 

7.Why would a patient not be given water?

8.Why would a patient's family member have to contact a GP to get test results from a hospital, why in other words weren't the results immediately given to the patient by the staff? Is this not what happens in hospitals? 

Bronte, I know you did not aim the foregoing at me, but as usual I'll try to answer each question anyway and my way.

1. Hospitals are interested in patient welfare - not visitors.

2. I dont know why pillows were not available.  Perhaps the hospital management could answer this - did you ask them?

3. How long was the urine on the floor? Were staff informed that the floor was in such a state? How long did it take to be rectified.  Perhaps HIQA can help here?

4. Good question  and I dont agree with such procedure.

5. Serious allegation this.  If a patient was hurt in any way by any member of staff, I  am sure the staff member would be disciplined and suspended pending an enquiry. Did you complain at the time?

6. I dont know, perhaps loads of work?

7. I dont know whay a patient would not be given water.  Did you complain to the hospital management?

8. Good question.  But, remember first day it was probably the GP who referred the patient to the hospital.  I would think it good practice to inform the GP, but inform the patient also simultaneously.


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## Bronte (4 Dec 2012)

Leper said:


> 1. Hospitals are interested in patient welfare - not visitors.


 
Nothing against you Leper but I find that reponse inadequate. I understand that hospitals are there first and foremost for patient welfare but I fail to see why common human decency would not have allowed a staff member to offer a chair to someone who has standing problems. 

My experiences abroad are so removed from the picture painted in this case and others I've read about that I truly find it amazing what passes for care. 

In a couple of my questions, which you did kindly reply to, your answer was to complain to management, but why should it have to reach that stage. Surely staff members can see urine on the floor themselves, are they not checking the patient regularly, it would be hard to miss and do they not arrange for it to be cleaned up. 

Another question I forgot to ask yestereday and it is more serious, surely an elderly lady who was incontinent should be checked and changed regularly not left in her own excrement etc. No doubt there was more than urine. If true, which I'm not doubting the OP it is a very sad indictment of the care given in Irish hospitals.

Does anyone else have the answer as to why people spend so long on trolly's. Is it lack of beds?

I still also don't understand why a GP had to get results, I've never encountered such a thing. Apart from pregnancies, my OH had to spend time in hospital last year for an operation and also about 10 years ago and I've had treatment myself, plus with the kids A&E from time to time. And a scenario such as above I've never seen.

You mentioned for the floor cleaning Hiqua, what do they do? Something about process and procedures? Are they part of the HSE?


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## Firefly (4 Dec 2012)

Perhaps the whole sorry state is a direct result of a mammoth organisation where incentives for high achievement aren't there coupled with the appropriate risks to employment for those not pulling their weight? Maybe it's time to bring back the nuns????


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## Firefly (4 Dec 2012)

From today's Irish Times, from a professor no less..

*Who'll be first with an A & E app?*
Sir, – If it is of any comfort to Bob Carty (December 3rd), we have repeatedly floated the idea of providing information on emergency department waiting times to the public. We’ve thought of phone lines, using public radio, and online solutions.
Interestingly, and given the season we’re in, the response of management is always “Oh no you can’t”! – Yours, etc,
Prof STEPHEN CUSACK,
Emergency Department,
Cork University Hospital.

[broken link removed]


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## amtc (4 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Don't you think that whether people are on a break or not that they could show some common decency and get a man who cannot stand a chair?
> 
> I've some more questions about this story, but it's not asked directly of you Leper for the replies.
> 
> ...



I was the original poster. And by the way I am female. I am a few weeks over having a number of discs removed hence requiring a chair. My mother is 65 and cannot be expected to stand for long periods of time. My point re the porters smoking when asked was not in relation to them having a break due but more that Connolly Hospital sports a no smoking policy on campus. 

The rest of the observations are entirely accurate. I sent a letter to James Reilly so will see what happens.

Once my dad finally got onto a ward he was well looked after.


----------



## Leper (4 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Nothing against you Leper but I find that reponse inadequate. I understand that hospitals are there first and foremost for patient welfare but I fail to see why common human decency would not have allowed a staff member to offer a chair to someone who has standing problems.
> 
> My experiences abroad are so removed from the picture painted in this case and others I've read about that I truly find it amazing what passes for care.
> 
> ...


 
1. When I visit a hospital ward, I look around for a spare seat and use it if necessary.  If I had some kind of disability that I could not acquire a chair I would ask a staff member (medical, administrative, portering, attending or otherwise) where could I get a chair as standing would be impossible. I bet this was not done.  

2. Urine on a floor might be there just a few seconds (or lets say minutes for the argument).  If the staff dont know it is there how can they clean it up.  Who knows why the urine was not seen?

3. Management are there to receive complaints.  There is no point in saying this should not happen and that should not happen, things happen, accidents occur etc.  Road traffic accidents should not occur but they do.

4. Again (I presume) the GP had an interest in the case and therefore results probably have to be sent to him/her.  I dont see why the results cannot be sent to the patient simultaneously also.

5. HIQA is not part of the HSE.  It is an independent body that oversees the HSE and what goes on in hospitals.

6. I see no reson why incontinent patients should not be checked.  I would think it a grave situation if the patient was not checked often.  If this happened you have grounds for complaint.

7. Why do people spend so long on hospital trollies?  Well, that's what we all on here are trying to find out.  I cant answer the question.  But, I am sure there is an answer.  Like I said earlier, why are we not copying the British NHS?  There are only four million of us are our hospitals missing the obvious?


----------



## amtc (5 Dec 2012)

Leper said:


> 1. When I visit a hospital ward, I look around for a spare seat and use it if necessary.  If I had some kind of disability that I could not acquire a chair I would ask a staff member (medical, administrative, portering, attending or otherwise) where could I get a chair as standing would be impossible. I bet this was not done.
> 
> 2. Urine on a floor might be there just a few seconds (or lets say minutes for the argument).  If the staff dont know it is there how can they clean it up.  Who knows why the urine was not seen?
> 
> ...



As I mention, I'm the original poster. Please have the courtesy to read my original post as all of these were replied to. However

1. I did ask, several times, and was told it was not hospital protocol. I even next day saw another visitor arrive complete with three legged stool.

2/6. Urine was there all night for three nights - only cleaned each morning

3. Management have received complaints in writing and orally at the time.

4. It was late night when my dad was told possibly life threatening news. No problem re sending to GP but it was only by using that they we on the ground got the results

Anyway my dad's home now. On daily injections and visit to hospital (only because he lives nearby, otherwise would still be in)


----------



## Bronte (5 Dec 2012)

amtc said:


> . I even next day saw another visitor arrive complete with three legged stool.


 
That's so funny, but it's sad too. The irony of the smoking I didn't get until now. They quote you protocals on chairs but ignore their own rules on smoking. 

As an aside I think it's wrong that people are not allowed to have a smoking room while in hospital (I do not smoke myself and never have).

Leper suggested the solution to your problem was to complain to management, but that didn't work. I wonder what happens your complaint, does it go into the room of unopened letters that I heard about a year ago I wonder. Surely they must reply to your complaint. I'd be very interested in how your oral complaint was dealt with. And was there any reply to your written complaint. 

The story about the urine is disgusting. There is a lady and her husband currently being prosecuted for neglect of her mother and the HSE shoudl be reported for neglect of that elderly lady if what you say is true. I mean 3 days of urine, what kind of caring profession would leave someone like that. 

Amtc how was the urine getting on the floor, was it leaking through the mattress?

Leper you said Hiqua is independant of the HSE. Are you sure it's just not another department or subsisdery of the HSE. My question really is how independant is it?


----------



## Complainer (5 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Leper you said Hiqua is independant of the HSE. Are you sure it's just not another department or subsisdery of the HSE. My question really is how independant is it?


It is independent. It has its own Board. It kicks ass.


Bronte said:


> I'm a bit lost.  What is a call center jockey?



http://lmgtfy.com/?q=call+centre+jockey


----------



## Complainer (5 Dec 2012)

Duplicate post - can't seem to delete???


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## Firefly (5 Dec 2012)

Complainer said:


> Duplicate post - can't seem to delete???


 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=duplicate+post


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## Leper (5 Dec 2012)

Complaining orally in a hospital is probably a waste of time depending on whom you complain.  Every hospital has official forms advertised in every hospital in  prominent places.  The forms can be completed there and then or posted later if desirable.

I dont believe there was urine on the floor all night for three nights.  Nurses and attendants are vigilant and provide 24 hours per day service. If you are telling the full truth  you have grounds for major complaint and you would need some serious answers.  Furthermore, I would bring the complaint to HIQA.

For the record HIQA is an independent body that stringently oversees workings within hospitals etc.

But, before you complain make sure of your facts.


----------



## truthseeker (5 Dec 2012)

Leper said:


> I dont believe there was urine on the floor all night for three nights.



I have given details of this in an old thread, but earlier in the year my father in law was taken by ambulance to Vincents and I arrived there a few minutes later (around 1am I think). 

There was a man slumped in a hospital wheelchair in the waiting area (next to the reception desk) with his trousers undone and pulled down and an open incontinence pad/nappy under the wheelchair with urine in it. He was already there at 1am, around 6am when he woke up and tried to stand. He fell over, and members of the public in the waiting room assisted him back into the wheelchair. No staff member came to help. The open incontinence pad/nappy was still there with contents when we left at 8am. A nurse had checked on him some time prior to him falling so he was definitely a patient.


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## Leper (5 Dec 2012)

Did you complain verbally and in writing? If so, to whom? What was the result?

If you didnt complain and your post is true what are we to think?


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## truthseeker (5 Dec 2012)

Leper said:


> Did you complain verbally and in writing? If so, to whom? What was the result?



I was more concerned with what was going on with my father in law at the time.

I didnt complain. There were a number of unbelievable incidents that night.



Leper said:


> If you didnt complain and your post is true what are we to think?



Im not sure I understand what you mean by the above? It did happen, if you dont want to believe it thats fine.


----------



## Leper (5 Dec 2012)

truthseeker said:


> I was more concerned with what was going on with my father in law at the time.
> 
> I didnt complain. There were a number of unbelievable incidents that night.
> 
> ...


 
1. You did not complain of what you say you saw.  Unbelieveably reckless and uncaring serious decision in my opinion. 

2. There were other "unbelieveable incidents that night."  You did nothing about these either.

3. If you are not sure of understanding my comments I think you fell down on the job.  No point in complaining here - Complain where it matters.

[No offence meant, just my opinions above]


----------



## truthseeker (5 Dec 2012)

As I said, my father in laws health was the foremost priority that night. I wasnt complaining actually, I was simply giving an example of urine being unattended for long periods of time in a hospital when you claimed not to believe someone elses experience of it.

I did things about some of the other incidents - I just didnt detail them here. 

I wasnt on a job, I was just an anxious relative in a waiting room from 1am to 8am at which point my father in law still hadnt had any medical attention so we left.


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## Purple (6 Dec 2012)

I’ve been in A&E plenty of times with relatives and a few times for myself. 
I’ve never seen a nurse clean up a spill or clean off a patient. I’ve seen them call attendants to do it and sometimes attendants have turned up and sorted it out. There was a times nurses did that sort of thing but it’s beneath them now which is a pity since the nurse used to be the humane face of what can be a frightening and bewildering experience.
The fact that no one seems to be in charge is also a problem; members of the public don’t know who the boss is and so don’t know who to talk to. There was also a time when the person in charge would have seen the old man in the wheelchair and told the relevant employee to do their job. The problem isn’t money or resources; it’s health service employees not caring enough to do their job.
I’ve experienced superb nursing care when my children have been seriously ill in hospital. During the same stays I’ve also experienced abysmal care; nurses who were lazy and hostile to patients and visitors alike. They and other healthcare employees like them are a major part of the problem.


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## Firefly (6 Dec 2012)

To be fair I think it's a lot down to bad management and an inadequate risk/reward structure. If you take any large organisation there are always going to be good, hard-working employees and those that will slack where the opportunity arises. Proper management should exist to reward the former and address the latter. 

Sadly, the way the reward structure for the HSE seems to operate is most benefit from "performance" increments. In addition to this it's extremely difficult to lose your job for poor performance. In that situation, the good, hard-working employees will soon realise it's not worth their while and those slacking at the bottom continue - no risk to employment. Although unions seem to strive for equality and "something for everyone", the practice is anything but fair..the good, hard working employers are essentially paying for the slackers to slack.

It reminds me of this urban myth:

_An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer._
_The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all)._
_After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little._
_The second test average was a D! No one was happy._
_When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F._
_As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else._
_To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed._


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## Bronte (7 Dec 2012)

Complainer said:


> It is independent. It has its own Board. It kicks ass.


 
If it kicks ass what have been the improvements in the Health system since Hiqua's existence?


----------



## Bronte (7 Dec 2012)

Leper said:


> I dont believe there was urine on the floor all night for three nights.


 

Leper I don't get that you think the the OP and truthseeker are not telling the truth? Why don't you believe them? In any case why would they lie? For what reason can you possible think they would make these stories up?  

Both posters are a long time on here and are not known for telling fibs?


----------



## amtc (7 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Leper I don't get that you think the the OP and truthseeker are not telling the truth? Why don't you believe them? In any case why would they lie? For what reason can you possible think they would make these stories up?
> 
> Both posters are a long time on here and are not known for telling fibs?



This is exactly the kind of thing that would stop me posting on forums. I was there. I was not making it up. If so, I would have a very vivid imagination and nothing else to do. And for what reason? 

Leper was not there. I always thought the point of this forum was to Let off Steam - not to cross question a genuine experience. 

Now, excuse me, I am now off to bring my dad to hospital again for 11.30. 

Maybe there is a reason you are a leper.(sorry that is a bit below the belt, but is justified)


----------



## truthseeker (7 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Leper I don't get that you think the the OP and truthseeker are not telling the truth? Why don't you believe them? In any case why would they lie? For what reason can you possible think they would make these stories up?
> 
> Both posters are a long time on here and are not known for telling fibs?



Last time I posted on this I was queried nastily to the point of anger by another poster resulting in me being warned over the language I used. The reason I became angry was because I had an emotional involvement in the story. 

This time - the crisis is over, my relations health is good for now - if some stranger on a website doesnt want to believe a particular experience they read on a website - thats their problem not mine.

I agree with amtc though - it is the kind of posting behaviour that would put you off posting on forums.


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## Bronte (7 Dec 2012)

amtc said:


> .(sorry that is a bit below the belt, but is justified)


 
Hi amtc, I know you're stressed with your own problems and your dad being ill etc but I don't think you meant the last point, Leper too is a great poster on here and he must have his reasons for posting what he did.

I do wish though we could get to the bottom of what is going on at the coal face of the health system and why it seems to be going so wrong.  I can never figure out what it is that is creating such a mess.


----------



## celebtastic (7 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> I do wish though we could get to the bottom of what is going on at the coal face of the health system and why it seems to be going so wrong. I can never figure out what it is that is creating such a mess.


 

What is causing the mess is restrictive work practices, and a health service that is more focussed on the wants of the employees, rather than the needs of the patient.

Simple.


----------



## Complainer (7 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> It it kicks ass what have been the improvements in the Health system since Hiqua's existence?



Here's a good start;

http://www.thejournal.ie/hiqa-closes-a-total-of-11-nursing-homes-over-two-years-568244-Aug2012/


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## Leper (8 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Hi amtc, I know you're stressed with your own problems and your dad being ill etc but I don't think you meant the last point, Leper too is a great poster on here and he must have his reasons for posting what he did.
> 
> I do wish though we could get to the bottom of what is going on at the coal face of the health system and why it seems to be going so wrong. I can never figure out what it is that is creating such a mess.


 
Thank you Bronte. Also, I dont believe that Amtc meant to offend and I took no offence. But, to be a little leprous I would say that contributing to fora such as this you must be able to give and take reasonable criticism.

I'll say my reasons why I dont believe the full truth was told here (there is a difference between the full truth and the truth). Also, I was not there and I am only looking at the written evidence to hand here.

1. We dont know if the urine on the floor was a droplet, egg cup full, cup full, bowl full etc. I'm not asking for fluid ounces here, I'm merely pointing out that full clarification is required. Why was the staff not informed of the urine in the first place?

2. It was there for three nights and cleaned up each morning. Was this a special clean or was it in the normal cleaning of a hospital area?

3. Nurses protect their Nursing Registration like we protect our children. I dont believe any nurse would risk a threat his/her registration over a urine spill however small.

4. Attendants work in hospitals who work under supervision from Nurses etc. If an attendant fell down on the job they risk (a) Suspension (b) The Sack (c) Forced move to non patient care area. Somebody earlier pointed out that hospital staff appeared to be exempt from any of these. I can cathegorically say this is a blatant lie.

5. A urine spill can cause infection and is a hazard which would contribute to slips and falls. A hospital intent on not cleaning up such spills would be leaving itself open to serious litigation.

I would point out the onus is on people to complain where complaint is necessary. These complaints should be directed to where they will be heard and acted upon. Aiming jibes at medical, clerical, portering, security etc is a waste of time and creates sideshows which keeps those responsible farting in silk.

If I had a penny for all the non-full-truth stories from people who attended at hospitals I would not be feeling the effects of the Recession.

Please note:- I print all of the above not meaning any offence to anybody. They are general comments and not aimed at any particular situation.


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## Odea (9 Dec 2012)

Interestingly. I deliberated over many days on the type of Health Insurance policy that I would need as my policy came due for renewal. VHI or Laya. To include private or semi private in public hospitals or private hospitals etc etc etc.  Just reading through this thread makes me realise that I might as well go for the cheapest option because in the end I will end up on a trolley anyhow.


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## delgirl (9 Dec 2012)

Odea said:


> Interestingly. I deliberated over many days on the type of Health Insurance policy that I would need as my policy came due for renewal. VHI or Laya. To include private or semi private in public hospitals or private hospitals etc etc etc. Just reading through this thread makes me realise that I might as well go for the cheapest option because in the end I will end up on a trolley anyhow.


Only if you are taken to hospital by ambulance.

If you have private health insurance, the Blackrock Clinic and the Beacon both now have A & E services and, if I had to crawl there on my hands and knees, I would make sure I got to one of them before I would go near a public hospital.  

There is a fee for the initial A & E consultation, but if you are admitted, then the VHI or Laya Healthcare take over.  You would need to check your plan to make sure you are covered as some of the plans don't cover full accommodation costs, for example.


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## truthseeker (9 Dec 2012)

delgirl said:


> Only if you are taken to hospital by ambulance.
> 
> If you have private health insurance, the Blackrock Clinic and the Beacon both now have A & E services and, if I had to crawl there on my hands and knees, I would make sure I got to one of them before I would go near a public hospital.
> 
> There is a fee for the initial A & E consultation, but if you are admitted, then the VHI or Laya Healthcare take over.  You would need to check your plan to make sure you are covered as some of the plans don't cover full accommodation costs, for example.



+1

My father in law actually begged the ambulance to take him to James where all his medical history is and where he has been told by his stroke consultant to get to within 3 hours if he thinks he is having another stroke - but no go.

He will never call another ambulance. Never.


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## amtc (9 Dec 2012)

My parents live within 10 minutes of Blanchardstown which is why he was taken there.He wouldn't have been let home (which is where he wanted to be) from anywhere southside so there are pluses and minuses. He goes up every day at 10am for bloods. 

I'm sorry that this thread has degenerated into me being so neglectful as to not bring a fluid measuring device with me, but I can say that I did see urine seeping into my dad's cubicle. I have no idea if it was cleaned as part of a general or specialist clean, all I know is it was there all day on the days that my dad was there. 

My points re the other items remain - lack of chairs, pilllows, smoking, inability to get answers.


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## ajapale (9 Dec 2012)

Posters, 

Please use the report post facility if you think that any posting guidelines have been breached.

Personalised off topic posts will be deleted.

Topic Reminder: Serious Defeciencies in Public Health System (esp A&E)  (title expanded my moderator)


amtc said:


> My dad .... was brought to a Dublin hospital through A&E.......the treatment has been appalling.
> 
> Now after 28 hours he is still on a trolley.
> 
> ...




aj
moderator


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## Birroc (9 Dec 2012)

When the regional health boards were amalgamated into the HSE, there should have been large scale compulsory redundancies with many of the duplicate positions centralised. This never happened but what did happen was managers developed lots and lots of new roles, processes, workflows and procedures to keep everyone busy. It has lead to incredible waste and lots of very well paid back office staff doing jobs that add little value if any. It is very difficult for the frontline nurses and doctors to do their jobs.

A friend of mine went in recently with a pain in her side. They told her it was an appendix and needed to come out. She was on a trolley in A&E for over 36 hours and was scheduled for surgery. However they had a rule that unless there was a ward bed available, surgery was not allowed. Fair enough perhaps but the surgeons were ready and willing to go but were blocked by the 'Bed Manager'. Eventually the appendix burst. Not good. As soon as she got a bed, they operated. The operation took a lot longer because the 'mess' needed to be cleaned out. She spent a week in hospital on strong anti-biotics because of risk of infection. If they had operated immediately, she would have only stayed 2 days. Of course this probably meant more people on trolleys in A&E waiting for that bed. The porter told us that they had closed a ward in the hospital (UCHG) a few weeks previously which adds pressure. My point is that if we took the health budget and targeted at the nurses, doctors, beds & facilities with an efficient administration system, we could have an excellent health service. The amount of money wasted is simply rediculous.


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## Bronte (10 Dec 2012)

Leper said:


> 1. We dont know if the urine on the floor was a droplet, egg cup full, cup full, bowl full etc. I'm not asking for fluid ounces here, I'm merely pointing out that full clarification is required. Why was the staff not informed of the urine in the first place?
> 
> .


 
Your response is quite extraordinary.  It's like a way of speaking that doesn't answer a question but instead seeks to go off on a tangent to avoid dealing with the issue.  

What difference does it make how much urine or what type of cleaning was carried out?

It's quite clear to me that urine was there over 3 days and nobody is able to tell us why it would not be cleaned forthwith.  That's not a complicated question surely.


----------



## Bronte (10 Dec 2012)

delgirl said:


> Only if you are taken to hospital by ambulance.
> 
> .


 
Can you explain this to me as I'm getting a bit lost on this too.

If you go to a public hospital by ambulance you go on a trolley.  But if you go there by car you do not?  

Everybody who arrives in hospital is treated as a public patient even if they have private health insurance, is that it?


----------



## Bronte (10 Dec 2012)

Birroc said:


> It is very difficult for the frontline nurses and doctors to do their jobs.
> 
> They told her it was an appendix and needed to come out. Eventually the appendix burst. Not good.


 
That appendix story is appalling. 

Can you explain what you mean by management making it difficult for the nurses and doctors to do their jobs?  Do doctors and nurses not get on with management and do they see them as an obstacle to getting the job done efficiently?


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## truthseeker (10 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Can you explain this to me as I'm getting a bit lost on this too.
> 
> If you go to a public hospital by ambulance you go on a trolley.  But if you go there by car you do not?
> 
> Everybody who arrives in hospital is treated as a public patient even if they have private health insurance, is that it?



If you go in an ambulance you get brought to the public hospital for your cachement area. If you go by car you can choose your A&E. If there is a hospital you have a preference for (whether because your medical records are there or because you want to go to a private only hospital) you need to go by car.


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## Firefly (10 Dec 2012)

Complainer said:


> Here's a good start;
> 
> http://www.thejournal.ie/hiqa-closes-a-total-of-11-nursing-homes-over-two-years-568244-Aug2012/


 
All this link shows is that this ass-kicking quango has closed 11 private nursing homes. I'm not arguing that these should not have been closed by the way, but how about providing a link to where this quango kicked the HSE's rear-end as this is the topic of this thread?


----------



## delgirl (10 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Can you explain this to me as I'm getting a bit lost on this too.
> 
> If you go to a public hospital by ambulance you go on a trolley. But if you go there by car you do not?
> 
> Everybody who arrives in hospital is treated as a public patient even if they have private health insurance, is that it?


Yes, even if you have private health insurance, you are treated the same as a public patient in the public hospitals.

An ambulance will take a patient to the nearest public hospital and will not take patients to private hospitals nor will the private hospitals accept patients coming in in public ambulances.

So if you have private health insurance and can make it by car to one of the private hospitals that have an A & E facility (eg. Beacon and Blackrock Clinic), you will be seen within minutes in a clean, efficient hospital with excellent in-patient care.

The fee for the initial A & E consultation at the Beacon is €120 and if you're admitted, then your private health insurance kicks in according to the level of cover.

The A & E charge in the public hospitals is €100 if you don't have a GP referral letter and, unless you have chest pain or difficulty breathing, you can expect to wait for many hours before being seen by a doctor.


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## truthseeker (10 Dec 2012)

delgirl said:


> Yes, even if you have private health insurance, you are treated the same as a public patient in the public hospitals.
> 
> An ambulance will take a patient to the nearest public hospital and will not take patients to private hospitals nor will the private hospitals accept patients coming in in public ambulances.
> 
> ...



+1 

But id argue the chest pain/breathing difficulties, on the night in Vincents which I posted about another man arrived just before my father in law, by ambulance also, with a suspected heart attack (his second incidentally so himself and family knew the symptoms) and after 8 hours still hadnt seen a doctor - chest pain notwithstanding.

It can depend on the A&E and time you go also. I brought a friend who broke her ankle to a VHI Swiftcare clinic, and she was seen within minutes and we were back home within a couple of hours, casted etc... She preferred to go there rather than a public A&E despite it costing more. But 2 hours versus possibly 24 hours - it was worth it to her. We met someone in there with a broken finger who had travelled from Naas, rather than go to a public A&E. My VHI actually gives me 5 visits to it at €50 euro so Id definitely use it if I had a break or needed stitches etc... but they do not handle anything to do with the heart or stroke etc...so for anything very serious, you are back to a public A&E if you call an ambulance.


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## Bronte (10 Dec 2012)

delgirl said:


> An ambulance will take a patient to the nearest public hospital and will not take patients to private hospitals nor will the private hospitals accept patients coming in in public ambulances.
> 
> .


 
Why not?  It sounds incredibly stupid.


----------



## delgirl (10 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Why not? It sounds incredibly stupid.


Dublin City and county is divided into 6 defined catchment areas for accident and emergency cover by the two ambulance services. 

If an ambulance is called (999 service) patients will be brought to the public hospital assigned to the catchment area of the incident (not always the nearest). 

The six areas are Southeast - St Vincent's, Elm Park; Southwest - AMNCH, Tallaght; South City centre - St. James', Rialto. Northeast - Beaumount hospital; Northwest - JCM, Blanchardstown and North City centre - Mater hospital, NCR.

We live in Wicklow and have in the past tried to bypass Loughlinstown Hospital in an ambulance by requesting to go to Vincent's, but were told that, as Wicklow residents, the ambulance had to bring us to Loughlinstown.

You have no choice in the matter and that's why if you're able to, and have private health insurance, go by car to one of the private hospitals that has and A & E Department. 

The Blackrock Clinic have recently extended their A & E Service hours:- Monday to Friday 9am – 6pm, Saturday, Sunday and Bank Holidays 10am – 5pm.

The Beacon Hospital is closest for us and easily accessed from the M50. Have been there twice to A & E with my son and a friend and found the treatment, speed, cleanliness, expertise, etc. etc. second to none.


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## dereko1969 (10 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Why not? It sounds incredibly stupid.


 
Because they're not a bleeding taxi service, they're an emergency transport service that have particular areas to operate in.


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## Birroc (10 Dec 2012)

[broken link removed]

This actually happened. I heard it from a porter who was asked to hide the trolleys in the corridor in an unused ward and then move them back.

As long as HSE management look good, thats all that matters...


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## Bronte (11 Dec 2012)

dereko1969 said:


> Because they're not a bleeding taxi service, they're an emergency transport service that have particular areas to operate in.


 
Well why shouldn't they be run like a taxi service. If a privately insured person wants to go to a private hospital wouldn't it be better for the public system that he goes to the private hospital taking away from the strain in public hospitals? Or am I missing something here. 

Does the VHI etc not pay for the ambulance service as part of one's insurance. 

Also does it not make sense for someone to be brought to a hospital that has all one's records?

Apart from Dublin it's not like anyone has much choice in hospitals in any case.

Another question, if the private hospitals are running such great A&E services, would it be cheaper for the HSE to send more patients there or not?


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## Bronte (11 Dec 2012)

delgirl said:


> We live in Wicklow and have in the past tried to bypass Loughlinstown Hospital in an ambulance by requesting to go to Vincent's, but were told that, as Wicklow residents, the ambulance had to bring us to Loughlinstown.


 
Why did you not want to go to Loughlinstown?  Is Vincent's better? And if yes why so?


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## ajapale (11 Dec 2012)

Never heard of Loughlinstown, but I have heard of St Vincents Hospital and it is one of the largest and comprehensive hospitals in the country.


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## delgirl (11 Dec 2012)

Bronte said:


> Why did you not want to go to Loughlinstown? Is Vincent's better? And if yes why so?


As St. Vincent's is a University hospital, affiliated to UCD, the diagnostic standards are very high with all the specialities coverd by professors or experts in the various fields. If you have to go to a public hospital, better to choose a good one.

My OH had just spent 5 weeks in St. Vincent's with a mystery illness in isolation. He was discharged and became very ill again a few days later with chest pain and difficulty breathing. This is the main reason we wanted to go back to Vincent's and, as soon as they had established in Loughlinstown that he wasn't having a heart attack, I took him by car to Vincent's A & E.  This was before they had A & E services in either the Beacon or Blackrock Clinic.

Loughlinstown Hospital, aka St. Columcille's Hospital, is a small hospital with poor facilities and wouldn't be my first choice for anyone who is very ill.


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