# Domestic heating options



## Sparki74 (25 May 2007)

*Hi all,

*
I am currently in the process of building a new home. As part of the process I am looking at the most energy efficient process for providing domestic heating and hot water. I have done a comprehensive analysis of a variety of options and I have narrowed the options down to two items. 

The first one is oil to heat the house as well as hot water and then to have solar to heat the domestic hot water (particularly during summer months).

*1) Oil boiler:*

The two options for oil boilers are an oil condensing boiler and a full balanced oil combination boiler. Typically the condensing boiler is 55% more expensive than the combination boiler. The Geminox condensing boiler costs about 4100 euros inclusive of vat and the Geminox combination boiler costs about 2600 euros inclusive of vat. Is the extra cost of the condensing boiler worth it? What is the typical return on the extra cost?

*2) Solar Heating:*

On investigation of the solar option I found that the cost of solar water heating is quite high. Typical quotations that I have received include the following:

The supply of the solar domestic hot water production system (3 solar panels) & the domestic hot water cylinder to suit solar costs roughly 5000 euros. Then the installation costs roughly 2000 euros. Then take off 1800 euros grant the net cost comes to 5200 euros.

I have also found out that there is an added cost for putting flashings on the roof for installing the solar panels. I don’t have a cost estimate for this but I am expecting the added cost to be around 500 euros. 

Given the added cost of the solar system together with the potential problems/costs that could possibly happen with installing solar panels on the roof is solar heating of domestic hot water a viable option?

Any thoughts on these matters would be greatly appreciated.


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## galwaytt (25 May 2007)

You don't state what type of heating you want........ufh or rads.

If UFH, imho, I wouldn't use oil.  I have gas in my current house, and just been fitted in my new one. (1 tonne LPG tank..)

1. I'd always fit a super condensing boiler.  My Vaillant gas one cost Eur 2k.

2. Solar, well, I've got 3 panels too, and my grant came to Eur 2800......also, you don't have to have 'in roof' panels - mine are 'on roof' panels........so that makes that job easier.


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## Sparki74 (25 May 2007)

Hi Galway man 

Ta for your comments. We are building in the countryside where there is no gas line, so we will be going for oil on that front.

After thinking hard and long about ufh and geothermal, we are going with rads and oil, as with geothermal, there is a lack of control on temp (1 hour to heat each inch of concrete), cool down rate is slow (Ireland has 40 seasons in one day), and also the cost of electricity for bringing the natural geothermal heat from the ground to a useable heat in the house. Many people I know have ESB bills that are criminal since they got this heating system in. In addition, I know of some well known established geothermal installers, who have had to take out their system from a client's house, and install oil instead, all at the company's expense. Sorry, I ranted....

Your thoughts on installing the panels is a good idea. How do you find them? are they heating the water ok?


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## mickeyg (25 May 2007)

Sparki, you certainly have frightened me as a potential geothermal user with your examples of problems caused by it.


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## fandango1 (25 May 2007)

As an alternative to oil, how about a wood pellet/chip boiler for heating combined with the solar panels. IMO the optimal combination particularly if you have a well oriented site for the solar panels.


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## yop (25 May 2007)

Unfortunately Ireland is currently flooded with cowboys who are now installing heat pumps and pellet stoves and costing the customers a fortune.

If u get a right installer, as in our case, you will have a working system which does not cost u the earth. After 10 months we are averaging about 15 euro per week ESB costs for the geo with on demand hotwater. But we did put in tighter loops in our UFH in order to reduce the running temp, therefore reducing the cost to run it.


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## Pique318 (25 May 2007)

yop said:


> After 10 months we are averaging about 15 euro per week ESB costs for the geo with on demand hotwater. But we did put in tighter loops in our UFH in order to reduce the running temp, therefore reducing the cost to run it.


 

15 euro/wk means nothing in regard to the topic. Do you never watch TV, boil the kettle, use an electric oven, switch on lights etc. ?

Unless you are talking about 15 euro a week JUST for the UFH/Geothermal....in which case that's a whole lot of money !!!!

But then what size house are you on about ?

We need perspective with amounts or it's a "my house costs more than yours to heat" without mentioning shoebox Vs mansion.


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## Sparki74 (25 May 2007)

We were planning to put in the wood pellet stove, but the size of the pellet storage area was taking up too much space. We didn't think about the size and location of its storage area before we submitted our plans to the council. A little bit of bad planning in our case.

Regarding cowboys putting in the geo systems, I agree that there are a lot of cowboys out there. However, this company is not a cowboy operation, the company is known to probably most people who have looked into geo in Munster - I'd prefer not to give its name. It pays to do the homework. However if you are happy with how the geo has worked out, then that's great. No one wants anyone to lose out.

So do anymore of you have solar panels then - extra costs (flashings etc)??


Lovely day isn't it


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## galwaytt (25 May 2007)

My panels aren't  'switched on' yet, but I'm hopeful.  I was prepared to go with a small cost for the convenience of it.    I was in local house on Tuesday, and will be there again tomorrow, and was looking at them working - the temp of the panel was so high you couldn't put your hand on the pipe............good enough for me - and that was an windy site......

As for the gas, I'm rural too, and don't have a pipeline either....I've a tank, not dissimilar in size to an oil tank.   My heating cost p.a. for all water, 2 x fires and heating in my current 2200sq ft, is Eur 1100 p.a.   I have no immersion, and no elec showers - everything runs of the gas.   I don't find that expensive.    Besides, I hate the smell of oil boilers in the house.....I don't care what anyone says, but eventually, they get smelly......

Ditto on the Geothermo..........jury still out for me, on that one........

Not convinced of wood pellet systems, either..............


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## ZeeDee (25 May 2007)

I looked up a few websites etc. on the types of renewable energy that you can use to heat your home as I would like to find out more before starting my build.

I was looking at Geothermal heating but there were alot of disadvantages for the Geothermal heating on the websites such as wooden floors cracking and certain patches of the floor were extremely hotter and uncomfotable to walk on than other parts of the floor. This kinda turned me from this option.

As for the Wood Pellets some people say there great, others say there very expensive, and don't throw out much heat. It's hard to decide but I think Oil is coming out on top at the moment for me although it is not a renewable energy. 

Solar panels seem to be a good option however, good comments on websites about these. I know there are also different types so you can possible decide how much your willing to spend on this.


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## Leo (25 May 2007)

Pique318 said:


> 15 euro/wk means nothing in regard to the topic. Do you never watch TV, boil the kettle, use an electric oven, switch on lights etc. ?
> 
> Unless you are talking about 15 euro a week JUST for the UFH/Geothermal....in which case that's a whole lot of money !!!!


 
Pique318, if you read Yop's post correctly you'll note that he did specify that the cost was for Geo. You can see from previous posts that the house is 2100 sq ft.

Are you serious when you say 15 Euro a week is expensive for water and space heating? That's less that 800 a year assuming the current level of usage. Bord Gais standing change is over 300 before you use any gas! Previous posters have reported gas bills of over 400 per two months for similar and smaller houses.
Leo


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## yop (25 May 2007)

Leo said:


> Pique318, if you read Yop's post correctly you'll note that he did specify that the cost was for Geo. You can see from previous posts that the house is 2100 sq ft.
> 
> Are you serious when you say 15 Euro a week is expensive for water and space heating? That's less that 800 a year assuming the current level of usage. Bord Gain standing change is over 300 before you use any gas! Previous posters have reported gas bills of over 400 per two months for similar and smaller houses.
> Leo




Thanks Leo for clearing that up. The 15 euro is the running cost for all electricity for the whole house per week, this is for unit cost only, it does not include the rip off standing charges we have pay.

As I stated this is down to having tighted looped UFH (means the UFH is running at 27 deg C instead of some UFH systems running at up to 40 Deg C), a lot of insulation, external & internalwalls, 4" in the floors, 300mm in the ceilings, 600mm in the roof space.


ZeeDee, what websites were these, just to clarify Geothermal is the not UFH, so could not be cracking their floors or having hot patches.

As for having "extremely hot patches" they are pulling the piss, UFH at most on a tile floor is warm, not unless they have their room stats up on 30 degrees!!


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## hayabusa (25 May 2007)

Yop,

Just a question on the loops, How far apart did you put them. 
Also, What is the max longth of you zones. 
I am looking at Unipipe and possibly vertical trial hole running a NIBE heat pump. 
I was mailing you before on these issues. 

Thanks


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## yop (28 May 2007)

hayabusa said:


> Yop,
> 
> Just a question on the loops, How far apart did you put them.
> Also, What is the max longth of you zones.
> ...



I will have to check the exact widths & runs lad, it has been a while since I was looking at the cad drawings supplied. But I think the max run was in or about 50m. The gaps again max was 125mm, min 50mm.
The extra piping cost in or about 400 euro extra.

Here is the linky to the UFH section on the blog
http://selfbuildireland.blogspot.com/2005_10_01_archive.html


Bore hole is an excellent solution, the NIBE heat pump gets very good reviews.


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## Denman (28 May 2007)

Yop/Mickeyg
We've just moved into our selfbuild in galway, t/f, 300 sqmt bungalow, with lots of insulation and alu-clad timber windows. We put in a heliotherm geo-pump with gas ground pipes to heat domestic water, UFH downstairs and wall heating upstairs (both Gabotherm). Everything is working great, but given all the insulation, the heating isn't really tested/required this time of year. Climate control in tuam did all the heating and their engineer certainly knew his stuff. It looks like the same company Yop went with. The fact that its running well for you gives me great peace of mind as I'll have to monitor the cost/efficiency thro the coming winter before giving it the final thumbs up. 

So, sparki74 and mickeyg, I wouldn't be put off the geothermal at all, it's more expensive to start with but the grant helps there. If I had know the extra costs and hassle of the 1m horizontal bed (cost of digger, sand for above & below pipes - 3 loads), I would have given more consideration to the vertical borehole (the grant is more and it would be more self contained which might outweight the drilling cost).


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## yop (28 May 2007)

Denman said:


> If I had know the extra costs and hassle of the 1m horizontal bed (cost of digger, sand for above & below pipes - 3 loads), I would have given more consideration to the vertical borehole (the grant is more and it would be more self contained which might outweight the drilling cost).




A point I totally forgot to mention but have said to people,  pain in the face laying out the area and then putting down the sand and that, costs so it does if u have to get someone to do it.


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## Optimistic (28 May 2007)

We have solar installed and are not to happy with the output/performace so far. They are supplied from a reputable supplier who has been in the business for several years.  The amount they contribute to heat is not worth the expense, as pay back is to long.  I heard all the talk about how much they do before we installed them. DHW heat is not the highest bill, space heating is. Solar does not contribute much during  the winter months and heaps (hopefully) during the summer. We also have a pellet boiler and are happy with that. But solar, hmmmmm. Optimistic


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## yop (29 May 2007)

Optimistic said:


> We have solar installed and are not to happy with the output/performace so far. They are supplied from a reputable supplier who has been in the business for several years.  The amount they contribute to heat is not worth the expense, as pay back is to long.  I heard all the talk about how much they do before we installed them. DHW heat is not the highest bill, space heating is. Solar does not contribute much during  the winter months and heaps (hopefully) during the summer. We also have a pellet boiler and are happy with that. But solar, hmmmmm. Optimistic




Going by what people say and what I have read Solar is a case of "if I cannot have anything else then solar is better than nothing". Which of course is true, anything to clean up the environment and save you a few euros is not a bad thing. 
The payback is supposidly very long alright, depends maybe on the amount of panels and that. I don't know a lot about them to be honest.


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## npgallag (18 Jun 2007)

Can anyone advise where I can get energy usage calculations for heating a 200Lt hot water tank with Oil boiler v Gas boiler v Immersion heating. Looking for a comparison between the 3 methods..?


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## lfcjfc (9 Aug 2007)

Denman said:


> Yop/Mickeyg
> We've just moved into our selfbuild in galway, t/f, 300 sqmt bungalow, with lots of insulation and alu-clad timber windows. We put in a heliotherm geo-pump with gas ground pipes to heat domestic water, UFH downstairs and wall heating upstairs (both Gabotherm). Everything is working great, but given all the insulation, the heating isn't really tested/required this time of year. Climate control in tuam did all the heating and their engineer certainly knew his stuff. It looks like the same company Yop went with. The fact that its running well for you gives me great peace of mind as I'll have to monitor the cost/efficiency thro the coming winter before giving it the final thumbs up.
> 
> So, sparki74 and mickeyg, I wouldn't be put off the geothermal at all, it's more expensive to start with but the grant helps there. If I had know the extra costs and hassle of the 1m horizontal bed (cost of digger, sand for above & below pipes - 3 loads), I would have given more consideration to the vertical borehole (the grant is more and it would be more self contained which might outweight the drilling cost).


 
I've had a quote for geothermal system + UFH heating recently that is tempting and I'm trying to look into further. I've been quoted for UFH system and insulation, heat pump, DHW storage tank, and all controls/manifolds. Quotes also includes installation of system. What other costs associated with a Geo/UFH system should I be allowing for? Any ideas how much it could cost to dig a horizontal bed and lay the collection pipes? I just dont want to make decision without having factored in all the costs


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## paintpotmen (10 Sep 2007)

hi were building a bungalow in Wexford. We're on a tight budget and plan to install the underfloor heating system ourselves with the aid of our plumber.

Can anyone reccomend a supplier (Cheap!!) for the pipes, manifolds, controllers etc for the system?

Many thanks in advance


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## imeldaduff (11 Sep 2007)

Hi All!
I need help in deciding on heating options for an 40sq m extension which is currently underway in S Dublin.The main (detatched)house approx 1,700sq ft and I currently have gas central heating with rads of various sizes and ages. Most are 10 years old. Boiler 100,000BTU and 2 rads were replaced about 5 years ago. It has all been working fine. Now I need to add on to the system for the new area and I have found it extremely hard to find a plumber that wants to take on a job which lasts longer than 2-3 days! I have had 1 quote. These are the recommendations from that plumber but I have no great knowledge on this subject so would appreciate some assistance/comments. The pipe to the boiler is GB so I am advised to replace the boiler with a new 100,000 BTU condensing boiler which
 *The Plumber quoted*
"will have 98% efficiency complete with flue and condensing pipe connected to drain
Re-pipe in ¾” gas service supply from gas meter to new boiler
Re-pipe all existing radiators with REHAU pipe
Supply & fit new digital time clock"
_The new extension will be totally open plan and we are having everything full insulated. As this will be a  large area approx 9m square  I am undecided as to stick with rads in this area or go for underfloor heating. I am concerned that this area is so large that if fully tiles it may look a little stark and if I opt for UFH I will be restricted to a tiled floor(forever). There are fewer walls in open plan to hang rads.Also I have heard horror stories as to the running costs of UFH! Triple costs etc._
*The plumber quoted;*
"3 port manifold for kitchen under-floor heating
Thermostat upstairs, downstairs and kitchen

300 dual coil stainless steel cylinder complete with temperature and pressure relief valve, tundish, expansion vessel"
I am happy to get the solar panels but again unsure if I am getting correct advice.
*The Plumber quoted*
"3 panel solar system complete with pumping station and control unit (Bosch or similar)
3.5 bar booster pump for pressurizing the cold supply and hot water
All pipe work to bath/en suite excluding the taps, sinks, shower doors, bath, toilets etc.
Thermostatic valves to existing radiators."
The plumber quote for this work was €20k. As you can see this excludes all sanitary ware.
Can anybody throw some light on this project for me?
My main concerns are 1. UFH or not?  2. Price ok?


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## P.Ranks (11 Sep 2007)

I found that this company were quite reasonable, and happened to have an installer in my area (north west).  They're based in the north, and supply the Roth brand of UFH equipment.  No affilliation apart from buying from them. 

[broken link removed]

Moved into new gaff around 10 weeks ago, and as others have said, not a whole lot of need for heating to be on full tilt yet.  But as for the performance of my wood pellet boiler and UFH system, have to say that I have no complaints as of yet.  Have it on for a couple of hours everyday, just to keep her ticking over, and its getting along just grand.  Got it turned down from a 25 KW to an 16 or 18 KW output after installation, and it is using pellets at a rate that does not alarm me at all.  Had my first look into the pellet storage unit that I knocked together, and there's plenty in her yet.  No actual quantification has begun yet, as I'm too busy taking it easy after getting the gaff finished.
Got the Powertech chap to install my UFH downstairs, did it myself upstairs, pretty straightforward, and everywhere is cosy when the heating is on. 
Have thought about the solar panel option and am going to put it off for a while, as if my WP boiler is on even for a wee while, there is loads of hot water, got a 300L SS dual coil cylinder, with the boiler hooked up to both coils (plumber recommended to do this if I was going to be leaving the solar panels for a while as the HW from the boiler goes through the tank twice essentially).
Have never been convinced about the whole heat pump/geothermal option.  Looks and sounds good,  but appears far too complicated, and in my humble opinion requires too high an initial capital investment.  Thats apart from the fact that according to anecdotal evidence they are being reconsidered in that shangri la of sustainability and sense, Sweden, and the recent decision to reduce the grant associated with them as they are not as effective in reducing ones carbon footprint.
I mean one has to drill the hole, line the hole, put some equipment in the hole, fill this with an appropriate liquid (which may or may not be potentially damaging to the environment), pump this through a heat exchange unit, nearly constantly if I'm not mistaken, or at least for exteded periods of time, and hey presto, free energy?!
Seems to me like theres a lot of things that can break down.  I'm far happier with a system that burns timber pellets, heats water in the same unit and pumps it through the house, less room for stuff to go wrong, and therefore less maintenance.
What I think is really daft about a lot of the geothermal systems is that you can conect them to the internet, to allow for remote access and control of the system, as well as 'troubleshooting' by the parent company if required.  If you ask me, anything that has the capacity to be accessed by its parent company so they can fix it from Austria or Shanghai or where ever they might be was designed to break down!


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## Wobs (12 Sep 2007)

Hi P.Ranks

So you think there is less that can go wrong  and less maintenace with a pellet boiler than a heat pump.

Lets see:

A pellet stove has a burner, ignition, auger, screw, vacum/blower, grates, creates ash which needs emptying, has bulk fuel which can clog (probably only on cheaper systems). I would think there are probaly a few more moving parts and things that could go wrong.

A heat pump system when installed and sealed has one moving part, a compressor.


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## P.Ranks (12 Sep 2007)

Well hello there,

Sorry if my remarks seemed to be disparaging towards heat pumps or geo thermal systems. Now that I look at what you have said, I agree, there are more moving parts, and probably more maintenance when it comes to a WP boiler system. I can only speak from my own experience, and would never tell someone that they had mad the wrong choice. I know several people who are perfectly happy with their heat pump systems.
However, in relation to the capital costs (and effort in installation) and the potential adverse environmental effects or the effectiveness of the HP system in reducing ones emissions (and therefore the emissions from domestic heating in general, after all some people are looking at all the options out there not just for monetary reasons but for their impact on the climate, directly or indirectly), then my previous remarks must be considered reasonable. Also, I can turn my system on whenever I need to, and the costs are just the same, however isn't there something in relation to heat pumps that requires their operation on night rate electricity to reduce the overall running costs? 
I admit that my system needs some TLC, in that the ash needs removing every couple of weeks, have been putting it into my compost bin to see what effect it will have on the final product. And I have to fill the hopper on the side about once a week, haven't got it feeding directly from the pellet store and therefore have a good degree of control when it comes to dust getting into the feeding mechanism. I'm kind of old fasioned and hands on though when it comes to things like this.
In conclusion though, I was just giving my tuppence in relation to someones query about UFH and that turned into a eulogy about my choice of system, which I am completely happy with, and I just wanted to try and share that happiness! Didn't intend to upset anyone who has a heat pump system, as I know that'd be kinda like insulting a mans horse or something back in the days when horses were, well still horses, but did a lot more work for people.
(I still think the connection to the internet thing is daft though...)


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