# "Kilkenny Trust" that makes your mortgage "disappear "!



## demoivre

Karl Deeter blogs about the Kilkenny trust that makes your mortgage disappear.


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## jhegarty

All sounds like the freeman crowd to me.


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## callybags

I must put up a blog about my seemingly unique system of making my mortgage disappear.

It involves, among other things a monthly direct debit out of my current account.

I believe there are very few people left using this method.


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## dewdrop

Who are the "freeman crowd". Has the Central Bank or the Law society made any comment. If not is there any body responsible for the legality of such schemes apart from the usual "seek legal advice"


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## jdwex

dewdrop said:


> Who are the "freeman crowd"


head melters
[broken link removed]
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land


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## DerKaiser

The article leaves me with a disturbing image of Karl Deeter throwing rocks at drowning people (he does say he learned from experience).


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## Brendan Burgess

It's a good analysis from Karl. My only criticism is that he outlines the scheme and possibly builds up people's hopes before he says in the middle of a long article 



> Now I'll give some concerns about this set up and why we are advising all of our clients to steer clear of this group.



He then sets out 10 reasons for avoiding the scheme.

He should have highlighted that it is nonsense from the very start. 

He finishes up with 



> Of the people at the meeting none of them seemed highly literate  financially, several disclosed that they were borrowers of sub-prime  lenders and the common thread was that they were all vulnerable and  perhaps willing to believe something too easily, because I have learned  from experience that when a person is drowning that even if you throw  them a rock and say it will float that they are willing to give it a  try.


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## dewdrop

If people involved are connected with Freeman on the Land the March 2012 Law Society Gazette has an article on this movement.  I regret i dont know how to quote a reference.


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## Brendan Burgess

A superb article here by Fergal Crehan, barrister.



> Unlike most conspiracy theories, which are based on wilful   misinterpretations of actual facts, much of the Freeman theory is   entirely made up.
> 
> We don’t need to enter any contract to be subject to laws. The Social   Contract doesn’t exist, it is a metaphor. You might as well ask to see   the captain of the Ship of State, or demand a swatch of the Fabric of   Society. But then Freemen are oddly literal-minded, as Mr. Bobby Sludds   displayed recently.
> Mr. Sludds, or “Bobby of the Family Sludds”,  as he prefers (this is  another Freeman quirk. They don’t accept the  names The Man gives them)  was charged in Wexford District Court with the  latest in an impressive  string of traffic offences. He demanded to see  the judge’s oath, though  an oath is a form of words, not a physical  object. He went on to deny  there was any such person as “Boddy Sludds”  and shortly thereafter  found himself in Cloverhill prison. It took an application to the High Court (this time playing by the rules) and an admission as to his identity before he walked free. He was later convicted of all charges. The State may be a fictional entity, but it owns the prisons, and they are all too real.


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## Brendan Burgess

dewdrop said:


> If people involved are connected with Freeman on the Land the March 2012 Law Society Gazette has an article on this movement.  I regret i dont know how to quote a reference.



Hi dewdrop

It was the April  2012 edition of the Gazette is here

www.*lawsociety*.ie/Documents/*Gazette*/*Gazette*%202012/April2012.pdf‎

Pdf page 14

For simplicity, I have extracted it and attached it here. Thanks to the Law Society who gave me permission to reproduce it.


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## jdwex

And here they are again 
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/middle-ireland-fights-back-241354.html

Middle Ireland fights back (owing 7million)! Pretty poor journalism by Stephen Rogers.


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## demoivre

Any challenges to this "trust " crowd in the courts yet?


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## jdwex

demoivre said:


> Any challenges to this "trust " crowd in the courts yet?



Well Charlie Allen was ignored 

[broken link removed]



> Counsel also told the court that one of their party named as Mr Charlie Allen sent correspondence to the receivers claiming the receivers occupation of the the pub amounted to a trespass, and sought €10m in compensation.


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## Delboy

and I presume this is tied into it also...
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...could-be-jailed-over-bankruptcy-29528930.html

James McCarthy was ignored too!


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## Jim Stafford

After being asked by a number of clients about the Charles Allen Trust, I met with representatives of the Trust in late July.

I believe that the representatives are well meaning (in respect of borrowers!), and wish to help vulnerable people.  However, their steps are flawed in so many areas.  One of the first questions I asked was who paid the stamp duty on the transfer of the properties into the trust. They said they do not pay stamp duty, as they do not have to.  I believe the Revenue Commissioners will have a different view! (with interest and penalties!)

The representatives I met were unable to answer VAT queries on property transfers etc. (Some transfers would trigger substantial VAT liabilities on behalf of the borrower.)

I also asked how would the Trust protect the borrowers against the banks taking legal proceedings against them.  Their answer was that the borrowers did not owe any monies to the banks, as the banks had not given them any monies.  However, this type of argument was recently dismissed in a case involving Bank of Scotland (see link to High Court judgment below)
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/...df184c75e110fe3480257bc8004df318?OpenDocument

Justice Rooke in the Meades case gave an acronym to the types of arguments being advanced: OPCA "Organised Peuedolegal Commercial Arguments". To a layman, such OPCA arguments sound convincing, but if you break the arguments down the weaknesses are exposed.

I believe borrowers would do much better engaging in a positive dialogue with the banks.

Jim Stafford


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## RainyDay

Jim Stafford said:


> After being asked by a number of clients about the Charles Allen Trust, I met with representatives of the Trust in late July.
> 
> I believe that the representatives are well meaning (in respect of borrowers!), and wish to help vulnerable people.  However, their steps are flawed in so many areas.  One of the first questions I asked was who paid the stamp duty on the transfer of the properties into the trust. They said they do not pay stamp duty, as they do not have to.  I believe the Revenue Commissioners will have a different view! (with interest and penalties!)
> 
> The representatives I met were unable to answer VAT queries on property transfers etc. (Some transfers would trigger substantial VAT liabilities on behalf of the borrower.)
> 
> I also asked how would the Trust protect the borrowers against the banks taking legal proceedings against them.  Their answer was that the borrowers did not owe any monies to the banks, as the banks had not given them any monies.  However, this type of argument was recently dismissed in a case involving Bank of Scotland (see link to High Court judgment below)
> http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/...df184c75e110fe3480257bc8004df318?OpenDocument
> 
> Justice Rooke in the Meades case gave an acronym to the types of arguments being advanced: OPCA "Organised Peuedolegal Commercial Arguments". To a layman, such OPCA arguments sound convincing, but if you break the arguments down the weaknesses are exposed.
> 
> I believe borrowers would do much better engaging in a positive dialogue with the banks.
> 
> Jim Stafford



Did anyone ask the more obvious question - if the Trust now owns the property, what's to stop them giving two fingers to the original borrower/owner and just using the property for their own purpose or benefit?

Are borrowers supposed to 'trust' the Trust?


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## Time

How can they own the property if there are mortgages secured against it?


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## tvman

jdwex said:


> And here they are again
> http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/middle-ireland-fights-back-241354.html
> 
> Middle Ireland fights back (owing 7million)! Pretty poor journalism by Stephen Rogers.



That article is like a press release from the Trust crowd.

 "It is estimated there are just over €2bn in current assets in it. " ??

"estimated" as in claimed by the organisers!


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## Jim2007

tvman said:


> That article is like a press release from the Trust crowd.
> 
> "It is estimated there are just over €2bn in current assets in it. " ??
> 
> "estimated" as in claimed by the organisers!



In may ways I think it would be a good idea if reporters were required to disclose their own interests went commenting on financial information, just like financial analysts etc... do.


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## Gerry Canning

I believe and Bear in mind that most present users of Freeman/or trust type stuff are people far down the road of Financial Annihilation and I also see  the concerted views posted by people with vast legal expertize that this (freeman)stuff  is clearly a scam.

I ask the Question.
If they are so far wrong , and clearly have no legs to stand on,
 HOW come they can win?

Before anyone jumps at me , I am just asking.


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## MortgageGuy

wasn't an attempt to build up suspense!  



Brendan Burgess said:


> It's a good analysis from Karl. My only criticism is that he outlines the scheme and possibly builds up people's hopes before he says in the middle of a long article
> 
> 
> 
> He then sets out 10 reasons for avoiding the scheme.
> 
> He should have highlighted that it is nonsense from the very start.
> 
> He finishes up with


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## Gerry Canning

Mortgage Guy;

I think my question still stands. 
Maybe I am a doubting Thomas since everyone states these Boyos are chanchers , yet they are still standing ! 

I just cannot figure why they have not been stamped on.
Our last few years have been a history of (experts), 
Maybe these boyos are not 100% loco !!
Again , just asking.


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## jdwex

Gerry Canning said:


> HOW come they can win?
> 
> .



When have their freeman arguments won?


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## Brendan Burgess

Hi Gerry

As far as I know, they have never won a legal argument. 

The problem is that they are giving false hope to people. There are people out there who are in difficulty but whose mortgages are sustainable if restructured quickly.  If people believe that they can escape their debt and hold onto their homes, they will delay dealing with it and the situation will be irrecoverable. 

If you are going to lose your home anyway, it might work as a delaying strategy, as it has done for this woman. 

"not a single payment made in 3 years" Judge grants possession with  6 month stay


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## STEINER

Jim Stafford said:


> After being asked by a number of clients about the Charles Allen Trust, I met with representatives of the Trust in late July...........




Charles Allen was busy in Kildare today.  Whatever about the legality of the incident, cutting metal like that with no eye protection is madness.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...tre-of-repossession-proceedings-29542185.html


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## Delboy

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/08/31/taking-it-back/
plenty of pics there from the 'protest' at the Stud far today...incl 1 of the security guard getting some rough treatment


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## jdwex

Delboy said:


> http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/08/31/taking-it-back/
> plenty of pics there from the 'protest' at the Stud far today...incl 1 of the security guard getting some rough treatment


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## jdwex

Common and Brehon Law indeed. Freeman nonsense.


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## Bronte

Brendan Burgess said:


> .
> 
> The problem is that they are giving false hope to people. There are people out there who are in difficulty but whose mortgages are sustainable if restructured quickly. If people believe that they can escape their debt and hold onto their homes, they will delay dealing with it and the situation will be irrecoverable.


 
Yes that is the big problem with this, false hope. I have people in Ireland that are not stupid but are quoting me the freeman nonsense and the 'securitization' argument for many months now. They actually really believe it.  It's very dangerous.  It reminds me of the craziness of the celtic tiger and of pyramid schemes.  And while I'm at it - of moving statutes too.  

If any of this were true, then no freeman would have gone to jail, but they have, and no one would have to repay what they owe. Ultimately that stud farmer will lose his farm. He signed it away the day he borrowed and was unable to make the repayments.


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## so-crates

It will be interesting to see if they ever manage to find themselves a properly qualified brehon to administer their notion of Brehon Law - doubt there has been a qualified practitioner in the country for 500 years! I doubt he would be quite as supportive of their position as they seem to think.

Also curious to see what happens if they get a little too literal with that sword and spear.


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## Gerry Canning

Am still going to watch this.
So far Mr Freeman/Mr Behon Law etc has apparently challenged on hopeless cases.
These cases have little else to lose, but SURELY the people they owe money to have LITTLE to lose using the CERTAINTY of their case.

I am around long enough to distrust certainty.


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## Brendan Burgess

so-crates said:


> It will be interesting to see if they ever manage to find themselves a properly qualified brehon to administer their notion of Brehon Law - doubt there has been a qualified practitioner in the country for 500 years! .


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## Gerry Canning

Brendan;

Jest not folks. Come November , come the ghouls and the ghosts!!
Maybe we could hire a few and send them to sort out our friendly and efficient Bankers!!
Failing that , I too must accept Mr Lawyer and Mr Barrister are about as good as we will get.
But still Maybe?


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## jdwex

It appears a solicitor acted as a notary for the Trust, but has now severed his ties with them! Did he help them draw up the Trust documentation  ?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...s-with-contentious-property-trust-242038.html



> Dermot Conway was the preferred notary public for the Rodolphus Allen Trust as it took in and leased back properties at sign-in sessions held across Cork during the summer.
> 
> Mr Conway’s decision to cease offering notarising services to the trust came after it controversially retook a stud farm in Kildare. The farm had been managed by court-appointed receivers, Savills.
> 
> The trust, run by Kilkenny farmer Charlie Allen, has been used by debtors across the country who hope to put properties out of the reach of banks and lenders.
> 
> Mr Conway, who is also a solicitor in Cork City, has now stopped providing the services.
> ..


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## Time

He is a maritime lawyer. Maybe that is why they went with him?


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## Gerry Canning

Maritime Lawyer. Hmn gets fishier !!


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## Padraigb

I suspect that the appointment of a maritime lawyer was a mistake: they wanted a ship's lawyer.


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## bugler

I think this is on topic because it puts light upon the calibre of individual (previously) associated with the "trust".The very same solicitor has an interesting history.

[broken link removed]



> On 29 March 2012, the Solicitors
> Disciplinary Tribunal found the respondent solicitor guilty of misconduct in his practice as a solicitor in
> that he:
> 
> a)Caused a substantial deficit in client monies as of 31 October 2009,
> in breach of regulation 7,...
> 
> c)Recorded monies in the books
> of account as ‘fees’ when no such
> fees had been received, so that the
> books did not show the true financial position, in breach of regulation 12,...
> 
> e) Used client account monies of
> €26,000, of monies originally received from one named client and
> credited to the client ledger of another named client, to make up a
> shortfall in stamp duty in relation
> to another third named client,
> 
> f) Utilised client monies to pay personal expenditure, in breach of
> regulation 7.



Just in case anyone would put much stock in the fact a solicitor/notary is involved.

I'd be increasingly concerned for those buying into this, given the fact it is not openly linked to the Freeman movement and the individuals involved.


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## gaius

jdwex said:


> head melters
> [broken link removed]
> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Freeman_on_the_land


I love the list of "Freeman successes".


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## jdwex

Things coming to a head now

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...d-of-putting-receivers-off-land-29569638.html


> The receivers have brought a motion seeking to have Mr Gilroy, Mr Allen and Mr McDermott brought before the High Court to explain their alleged contempt.
> 
> Mr Gilroy, of Navan, Co Meath, who was a Direct Democracy Ireland candidate in the Meath East by-election, *Mr Allen, of Inistioge, Co Kilkenny*, and Mr McDermott, of Kennycourt Stud, were not in court yesterday.
> 
> Judge McGovern said the matters were very serious, and adjourned them to Friday.



I wonder will Mr Allen claim his trust now owns the land, when he is in court  on Friday.


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## jdwex

No show by Ben and Charlie today. I'd guess there'll be a warrant issued now. 
http://www.tnsradio.com/4/post/2013/09/ben-gilroy-charlie-allen-news-bulletin.html


> Ben has just been told by a source within the 'Law society ' that apparently
> 
> They just want Ben Gilroy and Charlie Allen in Jail !


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## Brendan Burgess

I don't think that Mr Justice Brian of the Family McGovern will be too impressed.  

Looks like he will be introducing them to Edward of the family Whelan.


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## Brendan Burgess

Just came across this summary from Justice John D Rooke in a 185 page judgement on the issues, courtesy of Wikipedia 



> The bluntly idiotic substance of Mr. Mead’s argument explains the  unnecessarily complicated manner in which it was presented. OPCA(Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Arguments ) arguments are never sold to their customers as simple ideas, but instead  are byzantine schemes which more closely resemble the plot of a dark  fantasy novel than anything else. Latin maxims and powerful sounding  language are often used. Documents are often ornamented with many  strange marking and seals. Litigants engage in peculiar, ritual‑like in  court conduct. All these features appear necessary for gurus to market  OPCA schemes to their often desperate, ill‑informed, mentally disturbed,  or legally abusive customers. This is crucial to understand the  non-substance of any OPCA concept or strategy. The story and process of a  OPCA scheme is not intended to impress or convince the Courts, _but rather to impress the guru’s customer_.[9] [emphasis in original]


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## 44brendan

An interesting thread and it is unfortunate that these people are seen somehow as the champions of the people against the system. While there appears to be no legal basis for these asset transfers, they can to some extent be regarded as harmless diversions, or even an attempt to assist people avoid the baliffs for a short period. Unfortunately, I have heard of some people who have handed over substantial unencumbered assets to these trusts and also paying the Trust rent rather than paying the money to reduce the Bank debt. This is obviously a serious situation for these unfortunate people as it will compound their financial problems. They may not all be set up to scam people but this is the perception and the eventual outcome for most of their members is likely to be problematic as they are entering a process where they have no Legal protection.


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## Time

Bench warrants issued for Gilroy and McDermott.


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## Brendan Burgess

The Phoenix estimated that 1,000 people have paid a fee of €250 each to the Kilkenny Trust. 

Brendan


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## Hoagy

The individuals involved in this trust have generally been seen as 'well-meaning' but misguided and naive.  Mr Justice Rooke dealt with that issue in the judgment referred to by Brendan:

'' I_n his poem Inferno at Cantos 26-30, Dante placed the “evil counsellors” ‑ those who used their position to advise others to engage in fraud, and “the falsifiers” ‑ alchemists, counterfeiters, perjurers, and imposters, into the inner canyons of the eighth circle of hell. As sinners, the evil counsellors and falsifiers were matched by those who induce religious schisms, and surpassed only in fault by oath‑breakers.   _
_    Persons who purposefully promote and teach proven ineffective techniques that purport to defeat valid state and court authority, and circumvent social obligations, appear to fall into those two categories. That they do so, and for profit at the expense of naive and vulnerable customers, is worse._

_     William S. Burroughs in Naked Lunch (New York: Grove Press, 1962, p. 11) wrote: “Hustlers of the world, there is one Mark you cannot beat: The Mark Inside.” I believe that is true for you. At some basic level, you understand that you are selling lies, or at the very most generous, wildly dubious concepts._

_     It does not matter whether you frame your ‘business’ as a joke, religion, for educational purposes only, or as not being legal advice; your ‘business’ harms your naive or malicious customers, their families, and the innocent persons whom your customers abuse as they attempt to exercise what you have told them are their rights.''_


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## Brendan Burgess

Hoagy said:


> The individuals involved in this trust have generally been seen as 'well-meaning' but misguided and naive.



Hi Hoagy

Who has seen them as well-meaning? 

They are trying to help people escape their lawfully incurred mortgages, at the expense of society generally. 
They used a mob to forcefully take back a farm which had been repossessed by order of the court. 
They are charging €250 a pop and may be putting other unencumbered assets into this trust. 

I see nothing "well-meaning" about this. 

Brendan


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## Hoagy

Jim Stafford said:


> After being asked by a number of clients about the Charles Allen Trust, I met with representatives of the Trust in late July.
> 
> I believe that the representatives are well meaning (in respect of borrowers!), and wish to help vulnerable people. transfers etc. (Some transfers would trigger substantial VAT liabilities on behalf of the borrower.)
> 
> Jim Stafford



In this thread, for one.


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## RainyDay

Hoagy said:


> In this thread, for one.



Maybe it's just Jim and Hoagy that see owners of stud farms as 'vulnerable'.


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## so-crates

RainyDay said:


> Maybe it's just Jim and Hoagy that see owners of stud farms as 'vulnerable'.



Ah now, you are forgetting that Charlie also sees them as vulnerable.

Seriously though, being asset rich is no guarantee of invulnerability.


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## Time

http://awakenlongford.wordpress.com...high-court-generally-no-today-definitely-not/

No warrant was issued for Charles Allen due to problems ascertaining his address.

It is reported that Gilroy is hiding out in NI for the time being.


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## jdwex

This just gets madder. 
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/trust-tells-receivers-to-vacate-debtors-properties-244642.html



> A quasi-spiritual trust has moved to assert control over a lucrative portfolio of properties signed into its care, by *telling receivers and auctioneers to vacate the lands or face hundreds of millions of euro in claims.*
> 
> The move has come as a *High Court bench warrant was issued against the organiser of the Rodolphus Allen Trust*, which says it has accepted €2bn worth of assets from up to 2,000 struggling debtors.



I'd like to be there  to see how Judge Peter Kelly would deal with this (presuming it ends up in the Commercial Court at some point).


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## Time

An arrest warrant has been issued for Charles Allen.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-of-man-behind-2bn-assets-trust-29617039.html



> AODHAN O'FAOLAIN AND RAY MANAGH – 28 SEPTEMBER 2013
> 
> A BENCH warrant has been issued for the arrest of a man who along with a number of others is alleged to have trespassed on and illegally occupied a stud farm.
> 
> ALSO IN THIS SECTION
> Day-old baby is taken from mother by HSE
> Four charged with murder over blaze that killed family
> Chief Justice courts controversy by intervening in appeals referendum
> Mr Justice Sean Ryan yesterday ruled that Charles Allen should be arrested and brought before the High Court.
> 
> He must answer claims that he is in contempt of court orders in respect of 120 acres of land at Kennycourt Stud, Naas, Co Kildare.
> 
> Landscape gardener Mr Allen is a leading figure behind the Rodolphus Allen Family Private Trust, a group set up with the aim of putting assets beyond the reach of banks seeking repossession.
> 
> The trust claims to have €2bn worth of property, including homes, farms and businesses. People who sign up to the trust lease the property back from it for a nominal sum, thereby giving them the use of the asset.
> 
> However, legal experts have warned that the trust is unlikely to succeeded in preventing repossessions.
> 
> In proceedings brought by joint receivers appointed over Kennycourt Stud in 2011, it is claimed that Mr Allen, along with stud-farm owner Eugene McDermott and anti-eviction activist Ben Gilroy, have breached orders not to trespass or interfere with the receivership.
> 
> Receivers Mark Reynolds and Glenn Crann claim that all three are involved with "a mob" who last month forced the receivers' agents off the stud farm.
> 
> The receivers were kept off the property, which they want to sell, until Wednesday of this week when they retook possession.
> 
> Two weeks ago, the High Court ordered that Mr Gilroy and Mr McDermott be arrested and brought before the bench to answer their alleged contempt. Those warrants have yet to be executed.
> 
> A similar application in respect of Mr Allen was adjourned to yesterday's sitting of the court to allow the receivers' lawyers to serve him with legal papers about the case.
> 
> Last Monday, Mr Allen was personally served with all the relevant legal documentation at a Co Wexford hotel, the court heard.
> 
> Barrister for the receivers, Michael Howard, said the action arose after a mob of more than 100 people led by Mr Allen and Mr Gilroy took possession of the stud farm on August 31.
> 
> Mr Allen, he said, was photographed cutting locks placed by the receivers' security staff on gates at the stud farm.
> 
> FABRICATION
> 
> Counsel said Mr Allen stated that the farm was now the property of the Rodolphus Allen Family Private Trust. He told the court the trust was a "legal fabrication" that granted signatories a 999-year lease over the same properties.
> 
> Mr Gilroy, of Navan, Co Meath, a candidate in last March's Meath East by-election; Mr Allen, with addresses at Thomastown and Inistioge, Co Kilkenny; and Mr McDermott, of Kennycourt Stud, have not attended court since the action was initiated by the receivers.
> 
> Mr Justice Ryan said there was no question in his mind that Mr Allen had been served with the relevant legal documentation.
> 
> He said he was also satisfied that Mr Allen was aware proceedings had been brought against him by the receivers.
> 
> The judge ordered that Mr Allen be arrested and brought before the court to answer the claim that he has breached court orders.
> 
> Irish Independent


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## Bronte

Time said:


> An arrest warrant has been issued for Charles Allen.


 
Finally we might see an end to this crazyness of the freeman stuff.  I hope the nonsense ends with the court case.


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## Gerry Canning

Bronte;
Seems crazy surely , seems like nonsense to me.
BUT In the Threads I pick up that these (freemen) are acting in good faith.Normally good-faith people have a point. 

Let us see what High Court says.
Methinks there will be a twist yet. I see Supreme Court and Constitutional Chllenges here.


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## Bronte

Gerry Canning said:


> BUT In the Threads I pick up that these (freemen) are acting in good faith.Normally good-faith people have a point.
> 
> .


 
I don't know about this, that freeman are acting in good faith.

In any case good faith people can make a right mess of things, by offering people false hope, by confusing them, by being deceitful, by catering to the desparation of those in trouble. 

Allan is making a lot of money from the 'trust' if his 'figures' on the number who have subscribed can be believed. Is Gilroy the one who was renting his apartment and pocketing the rent while paying the bank zero, or have I got the wrong man?  Who is McDermot?


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## Delboy

Bronte said:


> I don't know about this, that freeman are acting in good faith.
> 
> In any case good faith people can make a right mess of things, by offering people false hope, by confusing them, by being deceitful, by catering to the desparation of those in trouble.
> 
> Allan is making a lot of money from the 'trust' if his 'figures' on the number who have subscribed can be believed. Is Gilroy the one who was renting his apartment and pocketing the rent while paying the bank zero, or have I got the wrong man?  Who is McDermot?



The lad pocketing the rent and using rent-a-mob to stop the repossession was Eugene Dooley
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1016/341938-arrest-eviction-dundalk/

McDermott is the stud farm owner (ordinary people of Ireland!) who used rent a mob recently also
http://www.thejournal.ie/kennycourt-stud-farm-1063806-Sep2013/

Gilroy is the fella who has copyrighted his name (€50k every time you use it!) who ran in the Meath East by-election earlier this year and has'nt paid his mortgage in over 2 years so his accommodation is currently paid for by the Irish taxpayer
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/30/b...tgages-nears-an-end.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&


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## Bronte

Delboy said:


> The lad pocketing the rent and using rent-a-mob to stop the repossession was Eugene Dooley


 
Thanks Delboy for that, I cannot keep up with everybody. We should have a key post on who is who for this. I'd add Jerry Beades, the guy who stopped an auction, is an ex FF er, and ex property developer.


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## Brendan Burgess

Delboy said:


> Gilroy is the fella who ... has'nt paid his mortgage in over 2 years so his accommodation is currently paid for by the Irish taxpayer



We might be paying for his full board  soon if he ignores the High Court order.


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## Delboy

Bronte said:


> Thanks Delboy for that, I cannot keep up with everybody.  We should have a key post on who is who for this.  I'd add Beads, the guy who stopped an auction, is an ex FF er, and ex property developer.



not just any ex-FFer...a close assoicate of the Bert and ex-Ard Chomhairle member.
He was FF royalty for a long number of years during the 'boom'

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...fighting-own-case-against-banks-26857827.html


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## Delboy

Don't forget another big name anti-debts campaigner

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1286769&postcount=4


> Since obtaining a €355,000 mortgage from BoS in October 2002, extended to €430,000 in 2004 - to buy a 50 acre farm on the outskirts of Newcastle West , Sherlock has had 4 separate court judgements issued against him for bad debts.
> 
> In Dec 2004, Birr Credit Union got a judgement against his wife for €6,600.
> In Jan 2005, Birr Credit Union got a judgement against Sherlock for €24,672
> In Aug 2006, Kerry Agribusiness Ltd got a judgement for €9,200
> In July 2007, Dairygold got a judgement for €10,000
> In Dec 2010, Bank of Ireland got a judgement for "about €10,000"
> 
> He has admitted that his judgements are still outstanding although his wife's has been settled in full.



Always great back stories that take a while to come out and still however get ignored by large parts of the main stream media


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## Gerry Canning

Brendan, The information in the threads are bad enough , but paying also for State Accomodation !
Have a heart!


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## Bronte

Delboy said:


> Don't forget another big name anti-debts campaigner
> 
> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1286769&postcount=4
> 
> 
> Always great back stories that take a while to come out and still however get ignored by large parts of the main stream media


 
Not sure if I'm correct Delboy, but I could have sworn that I heard on either RTE or Newstalk last weekend that Sherlock had come to a settlement with his bank.


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## Brendan Burgess

I have moved the discussion of Ben Gilroy to a new thread. I think that is the least he deserves...

Ben Gilroy on Pat Kenny: We have as much oil as Kuwait had


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## Delboy

Some undercover footage coming up on Primetime in a few minutes of a recruitment meeting for either the Freeman movement or perhaps this Kilkenny Trust


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## dewdrop

All gone very quiet on the Kilkenny Trust fund.  Any idea of the approx amount of money collected and any comment from anyone who participated?


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## Time

Charlie Allen arrested earlier today in Cork.


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## Brendan Burgess

Fair play to the Examiner for finding him and tipping off the Gardai. 

Brendan


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## Bronte

Time said:


> Charlie Allen arrested earlier today in Cork.


 
Wow, wonder where the money is that he received from all those 'believers'. Now it will have to be spent on his own court costs no doubt.


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## Delboy

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/charlie-allen-released-from-custody-29786623.html


> A MAN behind an anti-eviction campaign group has been released from custody by the High Court after promising not to interfere with a receiver's repossession of a stud farm....
> Mr Allen, with an address at Inistioge, Co Kilkenny, expressed concerns about the case going ahead.
> 
> Mr Justice Ryan said he had concerns about Mr Allen being in custody and not having time to consult with his lawyers.



To a layman like me, I would have though Mr Allen had plenty of time to consult with his legal team over the past few week while avoiding the bench warrant. But as is always the case in the Irish courts, why deal with an issue today when it can put off for an other couple of months!


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## Bronte

But Delboy the man is clearly in need of proper legal advice.  Particularly if he believed in his trust and believed in taking money off very vulnerable people, some of whom may have been chancers.  There's no hurry with this case and it will brighten up a dull January.  Hopefully this is the beginning of the end of people thinking they can get away with hiding from banks and not dealing with their financial problems properly.  the likes of Allen and Gilroy have been of no help on that score.  I note that McDermot made a grovelling apology to the court.  Not sure if he was a vulnerable person though.  But he has seen the light.  Amazing what the prospect of a jail sentance can do to one.  And pity those fools who put 250 Euro each into Mr. Allen's hands.  They must be mighly sick now when they see how he so cowardly hid from the law and ended up in court.


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## Brendan Burgess

The bit I don't understand is that there has been a bench warrant out for this guy for some months and he has evaded the Gardai. Surely he is a flight risk?


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## Bronte

How is he a flight risk, where would he go?  It's not like he's got millions stashed away.  He will entertain us in January 2014, and in about 2 years or 5 years time we'll hear of another made crazy scheme that he is the ringleader of.  I very much doubt this is the first 'scheme' he has dreamt up in his life.


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## Delboy

Out of Court and straight back to the trespassing way of life
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/freed-allen-joins-supporters-at-sold-property-250888.html


> Trust leader Charles Allen Sr was back at Lotamore House in Cork last night after the High Court released him from custody and he rejoined supporters who had occupied the Tivoli Road estate following his arrest on Monday.
> He arrived at Lotamore direct from the hearing in Dublin at approximately 6pm in the company of two other men.
> 
> When he was approached by the Irish Examiner he refused to say how long he planned to stay on the property, the sale of which was recently agreed by receivers.
> 
> Before yesterday’s court hearing at least five large men had taken shelter in one small caravan on the estate, despite the nearby presence of staff from a private security firm.


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## RainyDay

Bronte said:


> How is he a flight risk, where would he go?  It's not like he's got millions stashed away.


Isn't he the owner of property worth millions of euro through the trust?


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## Jim2007

Bronte said:


> How is he a flight risk, where would he go?



Well given that there was already a bench warrant out for him, I'd say he was already in flight....


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## Gerry Canning

Brendan Burgess said:


> The bit I don't understand is that there has been a bench warrant out for this guy for some months and he has evaded the Gardai. Surely he is a flight risk?


 
..........................................................................................................
Of course he is a flight risk , but like the swallows he will return.
In relation to the Guards, scrape below their surface and sadly they are not either capable or do not have the wish to do their job.   
 They appear to be very demoralized.


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## Deas

Are people still paying into this ponzi style scheme or have only those who have paid to date been caught out?


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## Bronte

RainyDay said:


> Isn't he the owner of property worth millions of euro through the trust?


 

Millions in his head, but not in reality.  

Delboy, my goodness, he has some neck.  Where did he come out of?  What is his history before the Trust I wonder.  You don't suddenly at his age come up with an elaborate ponzai scheme surely.  I wonder is he charismatic, he seems to have convinced a lot of people, or does that say more about Irish people than him.


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## Brendan Burgess

Bronte said:


> I wonder is he charismatic, he seems to have convinced a lot of people, or does that say more about Irish people than him.



The problem is that there are many  desperate people out there. 

They believe the media message that it is not their fault and that it is only the banks who are to blame. 

 If they have no other option, they may go for someone like this or the Debt Options people or the Freemen, whether they are charismatic or not. 



Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess

*Property protester agrees not to interfere again with two property repossessions*





> Charlie Allen of the Rodolphus Allen Private Family Trust, which has  claimed an interest in the two properties, yesterday purged his contempt  of court order and apologised in relation to a protest at a stud farm  in Co Kildare.
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> Mr Allen’s organisation had issued two notices in relation to the Cork  property, Lotamore House in Tivoli, one described as “a notice of fraud  and barratry”, the other described as a “notice of dishonour”, the court  was told.
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> Mr Justice Ryan said that ...
> They may have been served to give  “some colourable justification” to unlawful trespass but it should be  perfectly obvious, to lawyers or otherwise, that they did not convince  anybody.



"barratry" is an archaic word , which apparently means: 

_
_


> fraud or gross negligence of a ship's master or crew at the expense of its owners or users.


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## Bronte

Warning to everybody about this guy, still at it:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/trust-preyingon-home-owners-348377.html

_The Rodolphus Allen Private Trust is asking indebted people to pay a cash fee to protect their homes from repossession orders._


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