# Front Door: wood versus pvc



## Johnny Boy (21 Jun 2006)

I was going for a wood door but was told that it would will expand and "unexpand" and that I be better off with a pvc door. The house  is south facing and the door would be exposed to everything that the Alantic could throw at it. Rather go with wood, but if the wood door warps rather the pvc for to be pratical. Any comments welcome


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## Carpenter (21 Jun 2006)

I think PVC doors are an abomination!  They look dreadful, prone to flex and unlike timber you can't change the colour (well you can paint PVC but it kind of defeats the purpose).  Nothing can drastically alter the appearance of the front of your house quite like a PVC door- for the worse.  Please dont do it!  PVC has a very bad environmental pedigree and cannot be recycled.  Timber on the other hand is durable, can be be repaired, painted and is a sustainable product which can be recycled or re-used at the end of its life.


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## shoegal (21 Jun 2006)

Hi Johnny Boy, Carpenter is right! I'm coming to the end of a new build and while I have wood grain PVC windows, I am really glad I went for a teak porch and door. It is a huge addition to the look of the house. You will have to maintain it (especially if it is south-facing) but it looks much better. Next time you are out and about take a good look at front doors and you will be convinced!


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## Carpenter (21 Jun 2006)

I'm not alone on this one, thankfully.  If you really want to appreciate how bad PVC doors look find a street terrace in any Irish town- whilst you may find some original doors that could do with a lick of paint you will also spot the PVC door somewhere in the middle, sticking out like the proverbial sore thumb.  PVC doors should be banned IMHO- I'd live witha PVC at the back or side of a house but not on the front.


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## Berlin (21 Jun 2006)

I also agree with Carpenter. PVC doors are horrible. Most of them look like something from a submarine and completely spoil the look of a house. We have a wooden front door, also south-facing and as we are on a hill in Leitrim, exposed to the elements. A good paint or varnish job to start with, then a couple of coats once a year on a lovely warm summer's day and the job's OXO.


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## Johnny Boy (21 Jun 2006)

its not that I don't agree with you guys about the wood doors but will the extreme elements  warp the wood door


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## Sue Ellen (21 Jun 2006)

We have a wooden door and I would agree with Carpenter that they look much better *but* we have had a lot of problems with expansion/contraction even though we have a sliding porch door to keep the elements at bay. The radiator nearby probably does not help the situation. Don't suppose you have the porch option?


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## lastbuilders (21 Jun 2006)

I have put in a PVC door in oak grain effect and we are very happy with how it looks it. I never really considered a wooden one.


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## GMC (21 Jun 2006)

My folks have a wooden door on their house also south facing door up 25 yrs+ and no major probs can get a little stiff in winter with wet weather etc but a little rub of soap usually does the trick  stick with the wooden door...


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## Bamhan (21 Jun 2006)

Definately wood for me....don't like the look of PVC at all.


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## muffin1973 (21 Jun 2006)

Had someone from a windows company come out to give us a quote on windows the other night.  She also mentioned they do PVC doors that look very much like timber doors.  I was definitely going to go with a timber door and am still going to go with a timber door.  Apart from the price (the doors she was selling are about €2500 (!)) the look of the doors in the brochure just wasn't what I wanted - no matter how similar they look, the PVC is too smooth to really mimic the look of a solid timber door...

have had recommendations here on AAM about doorsireland.ie and checked them up and got a quote for €150 for a solid timber mahogany front door - is this not incredibly cheap???


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## Toby (21 Jun 2006)

Have you looked at http://www.arcticdoors.com/gallery.html. I've seen these doors and they look just like painted wood and would seem not to have problems associated with wood.


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## delgirl (21 Jun 2006)

Toby said:
			
		

> Have you looked at http://www.arcticdoors.com/gallery.html. I've seen these doors and they look just like painted wood and would seem not to have problems associated with wood.


We have one of these doors and it looks like painted wood.  It requires no maintenance, just a wipe with a damp cloth each week.  It's nearly 7 years old and looks as good as new.


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## NHG (22 Jun 2006)

If you are going for a Timber External Door it should be Iroko Teak.  Mahoganny is not an exterior grade (used to be - but timber was re-graded).

A Teak door should not swell or shrink once it has been painted and protected properly.

Most people neglect to paint the top and bottom of tha door as no one will see it, but it is important to seal your door all around.


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## Johnny Boy (22 Jun 2006)

Thanks all, wood is definently is what I want but need to be practical too. NHG I'm going to check into Iroko Teak thanks for the lead


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## NHG (22 Jun 2006)

Iroko it is what most architects specify & where I work it is the only hardwood used for external use.

Most of the Iroko coming into Ireland is from the Ivory Coast and is from Managed Forests for those of us who like to think of our environment!


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## Carpenter (22 Jun 2006)

NHG said:
			
		

> A Teak door should not swell or shrink once it has been painted and protected properly.
> 
> Most people neglect to paint the top and bottom of tha door as no one will see it, but it is important to seal your door all around.


 
All timber is subject to movement through the seasons as timber is hygroscopic and will respond to the environment in which it is used. That said Iroko is excellent for exterior use and is very resistant to cracking and decay. Whatever about treating the bottom of the door I don't think all edges should be treated- it is traditional to leave the top edge unpainted, perhaps this allows the timber to breathe- I don't know. The top edge of the door (unless an outward opening door) is the least vulnerable part of any door. The most important thing to consider after your door is the threshold you use with it, Exitex do IMHO the best door thresholds on the market in this country.


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## NHG (22 Jun 2006)

I agree with carpenter about the Exitex draught excluder - I use a Hi-per Bar (HPB) in the majority of cases with a timber weather board to the bottom of the door and a Mobility Weatherbar Kit MWK/25/R where a mobility cill is required.

I like a draught excluder that has no rubber seal on the floor as they wear and need regular replacement of the seals.


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## MandaC (22 Jun 2006)

I really like the look of those artic doors.  Are they expensive?


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## Carpenter (22 Jun 2006)

NHG said:
			
		

> I must look up the IMHO that carpenter wrote about.


 
IMHO- in my honest opinion!   The mobility weatherbar is a great product and to be recommended.


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## ipxl (22 Jun 2006)

The joinery/windows/external door company I plan to use for our
house build have costed in a Teak (well Iroco) front door.
The tips about the quality draught excluder is very useful - thanks
carpenter.

Without veering too much from the topic of the thread (I hope)..

The company providing our windows/doors told me that they don't
hang hardwood double/french style doors for the side/back of
the house (we have a sunroom on the west wing of house).
They priced in PVC double doors which match the wood grain
effect of the windows. We are going with PVC for windows.

I accept that PVC for a front door is for many an abomination
but do you think its reasonably ok to go with PVC for the
double doors on the sunroom exit to garden. The alternative
is I'd have to go with a very nationwide window supplier who
are seen by most as run of the mill. I believe they will do
hardwood double/french doors but I can't see the woodgrain
colours matching if mixing PVC windows with timber door on
the sunroom.


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## Carpenter (22 Jun 2006)

ipxl said:
			
		

> Without veering too much from the topic of the thread (I hope)..
> 
> The company providing our windows/doors told me that they don't
> hang hardwood double/french style doors for the side/back of
> ...


 
I think PVC is fine for the back or side of the house- I just don't think that the main entrance door to any house should plastic.  I've seen the wood grain effect PVC, it's actually a foil embossed PVC and to be honest it's not bad at all!  When I refer to PVC doors I suppose what I really have in my mind as being truly awful are those white "panelled" variety with little fanlight over, dreadful tack altogether!


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## delgirl (22 Jun 2006)

MandaC said:
			
		

> I really like the look of those artic doors. Are they expensive?


I don't know MandaC, but here are the contact details of the company in the previous link 

Tel: +353 54 55460
Fax: +353 54 55468
Locall: 1890 23 66 77

Email: info@arcticdoors.com

Ours was installed by Senator Windows.


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## NHG (22 Jun 2006)

I have looked in Exitex brochure and on their web and cannot find code IMHO 

Thanks


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## Bamhan (22 Jun 2006)

We had our front door made by a local joiner and the painter ws set to paint it today and commented that the timber is cracking in a few places and that this is not a good sign. The wood has been treated but not painted as yet.
We have gotten back onto the joiner to ask him should we be worried.....he is on holidays for two weeks but I feel he is an honourable sort and should sort the problem if there is one.
The door is larger than standard and has two side panels and a fan light over head. The fanlight and the side panels appear to be fine but the door itself seems to be cracking and splitting. It has been hung for a while now, I mean a few months.....


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## hotlips (22 Jun 2006)

ipxl:
My neighbours just got double glass patio doors in wood, painted white. I couldn't tell you who the maker is though. I know the builder ordered them especially. They certainly look to be very nice quality. So, such things exist.


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## NHG (22 Jun 2006)

Bamham,  your doors should have been painted/treated immediately after they were installed.  Especially with the weather we have had for the last few weeks (don't know where the sun got to this wk).  

Aluminium wood primer and undercoat only have a life span of about 2 weeks if even that.

It is not your Joiner's fault.


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## muffin1973 (22 Jun 2006)

NHG said:
			
		

> If you are going for a Timber External Door it should be Iroko Teak. Mahoganny is not an exterior grade (used to be - but timber was re-graded).
> 
> A Teak door should not swell or shrink once it has been painted and protected properly.
> 
> Most people neglect to paint the top and bottom of tha door as no one will see it, but it is important to seal your door all around.


 
NHG - even though timber's been re-graded as you say, is mahogany still ok to use.  Why wouldn't it be??  Is it not tough enough or something? ta.

M


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## Carpenter (22 Jun 2006)

NHG said:
			
		

> Hi Carpenter, I have looked in Exitex brochure and on their web and cannot find code IMHO - are there any other details with regard to name etc
> 
> Thanks


 
NHG,
See my previous post regarding "IMHO"- in my honest opinion!

As for cracking woodwork- yeah primer or undercoat are no protection on their own.  I'd say give the door another shot with undercoat, maybe thinned down with a little white spirit and flood the cracks etc with the paint to seal them.  Once the door has been glossed it should be okay.


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## Toby (22 Jun 2006)

Artic doors - one I saw cost about €3,000


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## delgirl (22 Jun 2006)

Another plus point for the Artic doors, apart from low maintenance, is the locking system, which appears to be built into the door. 

There are two 'hooks' top and bottom and a deadlock in the middle that go into the door frame, making it very difficult to force open.


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## kiki35 (23 Jun 2006)

we got a fab door from Rationale about 2 years ago - it's red and really looks the part.  Everyone comments on it. It has caused no probs either with contracting/expanding.  Has also kept every draft out - couldn't ask for better.  Faces North East and gets alot of wind at it.  Expensive enough though, about 1.5k and there was hassle getting it fitted, if I remember correctly, but worthwhile.  HTH


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## ipxl (27 Jul 2006)

The window/door joinery who I've been getting quotes in for our
one-off house build have specified a front door made of "sapelia"
which they describe as a mahogany like timber (engineered, I
believe). I asked about Iroko and they say they had some trouble
with working with Iroko (warpage, etc, I believe). 

This seems to run counter to what I've heard from other joineries.
The door is 930mm width including frame and has glazed sections
of 535mm width (including glaze/window frames) and is 2.15metres
high. U value is 2.46 W/m2K and weight is 220kg approx.

They quote it as 1088.40 Euro before vat + fitting.
They also include a discount in the overall window/door quote so I'd
be getting the door for approx. 1300 Euro.

NHG, carpenter.. any views on sapelia ? I've other reasons why
I might not go with these guys (their glazing don't come standard
with argon fill or soft coat low-E glass) although they do have
a reputation for having reliable fitters, etc and joinery quality.


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## extopia (27 Jul 2006)

Glad to see I'm no longer the only one railing against uPVC.  

From what I see in new builds around the country, plastic doors and windows are becoming less common. Amazing that it took us so long to realize how sh*te they look, not to mention the environmental issues associated with them.

People think PVC is maintenance free, which it's not. And PVC can warp as well.


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## NHG (27 Jul 2006)

Sapellia is a redish colour wood. It is of the mahoganny vairety which is no longer graded as "external quality" even though alot of manufacturers are still using it and selling it for external joinery.  It would be much better than using the likes of red deal etc externally.

Iroko is the best.  Timber is a natural product and warping can happen with all woods - Not as much in hardwood as softwood.  This type of weather plays havoc with joinery which is lying around workshops etc but, once it is fitted without warping it should be fine.  It is advisable in this type of weather to keep all doors closed in their frames both internal and external. 

(we spend all year waiting for weather like this and then its panic trying to keep everything right in it - may it last till Christmas I say  )


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## AileenF (27 Jul 2006)

Is Iroko the same as teak?


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## ipxl (27 Jul 2006)

NHG said:
			
		

> Sapellia is a redish colour wood. It is of the mahoganny vairety which is no longer graded as "external quality" even though alot of manufacturers are still using it and selling it for external joinery.  It would be much better than using the likes of red deal etc externally.



NHG - 

In your opinion why are the joineries using it. Is it to keep the price
low ? Is it just an availability issue. I seem to recall one of those
I spoke to in the joineries telling me that hardwood for doors is
very hard to source so the joineries stockpile what ever they
can lay their hands on. Maybe that joinery I spoke to just has a
more reliable supply of Sapellia. 

We are planning to paint the door with some glossy red paint
(with correct number of primers & undercoats). Is it true that
matt or glossy paints can increase the U-value of the door 
compared to the translucent type stains which show off the 
actual underlying timber character ?

-ipxl


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## NHG (27 Jul 2006)

Joineries are using it (Sapellia/framerie etc) because it is much cheaper per cube than iroko and they can sell it to gullible's who do not know that there is a difference and want what "josie has up the road" as cheaply as possible.

Iroko is a lifetime investment. 

 I don't think (maybe I'm wrong on this) that U Value is of terrible importance on a solid door it is realy to do with glazing in windows or french doors etc.  Between the Door and the Frame there are usually 2 (2 on Multipoint locking doors and 1 on regular doors) rubber draught excluders which meet and can be replaced should they perish (from varnish etc getting on them, and wear and tear).

Not sure about the U Value re painting - maybe some painters would let us know on that one.


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## NHG (27 Jul 2006)

AileenF

Iroko is Teak - It is a higher grade of teak which is usually specified on architects drawings.  Framarie is also teak but not as high a grade.  This is where it gets confusing.  Sapellia is a grade of Mahoganny. Red Deal, White Deal, Southern Yellow Pine, Pitch Pine, Honduras Pine etc are all called Pine.  Its just the ones that do their homework and know what they are really paying for and the reason why one product is much dearer that another.

I could go on and on and really really bore you.


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## ipxl (27 Jul 2006)

NHG said:
			
		

> Iroko is a lifetime investment.
> 
> I don't think (maybe I'm wrong on this) that U Value is of terrible importance on a solid door it is realy to do with glazing in windows or french doors etc.  Between the Door and the Frame there are usually 2 (2 on Multipoint locking doors and 1 on regular doors) rubber draught excluders which meet and can be replaced should they perish (from varnish etc getting on them, and wear and tear).



I take your point that Iroko is a lifetime investment.
Do you think painting over it is sacrilege ? i.e hiding the character
of the timber that lurks behind the coats of paint ?
I'm guessing that you feel the Iroko has the best weatherproofing
regardless of whether we paint over it or not. 
I just wondered if you'd cringe or not if someone painted an Iroko
door red ,etc


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## NHG (27 Jul 2006)

I no reason why not to paint over your teak door.  In order to paint a teak door make sure to first prime it with an aluminium wood primer which holds the oils in the wood (which make it a hardwood) thus allowing the paint to stick properly onto the door.

If everyone had the same taste in life would'nt it be a very boring place to live.  Where I work 95% of everything we sell is Iroko and I would say at least 80% of it gets painted if not more.

There are some beautiful colours about now and alot of people are going for a dark rich colour for outside and painting the inside of a solid entrance unit and door the same colour as the hall ie orchid white, magnolia etc so that you are not looking at a big dark block of colour inside as everybody is consious of natural light.  I saw the most beautiful colour a few weeks ago and it was between a dark purple and a black - it really caught my eye!

Some people paint the door a couple of times a year with the seasons! 

Not every house suits a brown door i.e. red brick needs a black door.


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## ipxl (28 Jul 2006)

Just out of curiosity. It has been established that iroko is classified
as suitable for external joinery whereas mahogany and mahogany
variety timber has been de-listed.

How does this apply to timber windows ? I remember chatting to
a relative who is an old-school carpenter and he said the only
timber he would recommend for windows in this climate is teak
(and I assume I can substitute iroko in this case). Are there
grains of truth in his assertion ? What's the story with these
nordic pine windows , etc one sees marketed these days ?
I'm guessing they are pressure treated.

Sorry - I don't want to go off topic from doors to windows but
my question is really one to establish (from a non-building laypersons
perspective) which timber products are really suited to the 
Irish climate ....


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## NHG (28 Jul 2006)

Hi IPXL,

Your relative/friend is correct in what information that he passed to you. 

Yes,  all of these pine windows etc are pressure treated (or should be) and would have a life span of 10 to 15 years depending on the amount of maintenance that they received during their lifetime.  

On the continent most windows open in and are of softwood, but in extreme weather conditions they use external shutters both for protection and for security.  In the sun you will notice the doors usually have a curtain hung over them - even here years ago you would see that and still today on the odd house. 

Hopefully someone else will give their views on this topic as we all need to be informed correctly.


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## marksa (29 Jul 2006)

You'll probably find that mahogany is de-listed as true mahogany is now pretty scarce. Most purported mahogany on sale here is actually relatives such as sapele. Timbers such as honduras mahogany are now almost extinct.


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## S.L.F (1 Mar 2008)

ipxl said:


> I remember chatting to
> a relative who is an old-school carpenter and he said the only
> timber he would recommend for windows in this climate is teak



I having restored old pine sliding sash windows that are 260 years old.
These windows are the same type that would be taken out by 'old school' carpenters to be replaced with uPVC or "Teak".

I think your relative could use some education on the subject.


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## NHG (3 Mar 2008)

S.L.F. your are so lucky to still have the original windows and to have restored them to their original glory.

The Pine of years ago (as you mentioned 260yrs) was something else and was classed as a hardwood and highly durable for joinery , unfortunately the Pine of today is a much different species altogether and is a softwood and is classified as non-durable for joinery.


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## Bluebells (4 Mar 2008)

I can't understand why people are so worried about ' maintenance '. We have to maintain lawns and gardens too but nobody wants plastic flowers!

The irony of all this, is that a neglected wooden sash window or door, does not look anything so depressing as a neglected PVC version of same. 

Have a look at a few derelict houses around - the wooden windows seem to still speak of the house when it was in it's glory. The PVC ones just look  sorrowful.

( Not much help to anyone, I know, but this struck me once )


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## S.L.F (4 Mar 2008)

NHG said:


> S.L.F. your are so lucky to still have the original windows and to have restored them to their original glory.



Haven't done it yet too busy with everybody else's!

Unfortunately mt windows are not sash windows but they are 60 years old and that means the wood will be super.

Next door got her windows out and has put white uPVC in, yuck!!!


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## wombat (5 Sep 2009)

Have also seen the light and will be going for a wooden front door with bevelled and lead glass sidelights and fanlight.  It's from Samson and will cost a whopping 2K but there you go...  I'd love timber windows also but can't afford them so have opted for a black wood-grain pvc.  Hopefully it'll all look well once the house goes up.

Anyone else gone for black windows and timber door?  Would love to hear if looks well etc.


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## fitzie79 (6 Sep 2009)

sorry if i'm hijacking thread but found it really interesting. i have a wooden door (iroko) that is fairly exposed like some other posters. the draught excluders look really good. approximately how much are they? 

one other issue i have is the potential for the door to be blown inwards when you are opening it. we haven't moved in yet but i could imagine that on a windy day with hands full of shopping it might be difficult to keep hold of it and stop it slamming inwards. are there any hinges or brackets available that would fit onto the door to solve this problem?

ps to the op -  i would definately choose the wooden door over pvc


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## riddles (28 Oct 2009)

Hi 

Does anyone know if articdoors are still operating the website doesn't work and the number sounds disconnected.  Are there alternative companies selling the same door referred to here.

thanks,

R.


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## Hillsalt (28 Oct 2009)

I got a new door installed last year. Wooden door got warped from being exposed to the elements of the Irish west coast.

 The new door seems to have similar features of *articdoors*..... triple lock, sturdy, wood effect, strong etc. It actually looks better than the original door.  I bought it from *Ard Ri* in Galway. They were a bit slow to install it and there were a few teething problems which were all sorted after 5 or 6 phone calls.


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