# Do I need an accountant?



## elainem (1 Jun 2011)

I have 2 investment properties which are rented. I have been using the services of an accountant for e1700 p.a. However, the rent is low enough and I'm just wondering if I can self-assess on ROS - or how it works. Also have S23 in Wexford which I have been unable to rent since Jan. Wondering if it is feasible to just put all my details into ROS online for self-assessment. Wouldn't know how to caculate capital costs etc. Advice/comments welcome.


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## Gervan (1 Jun 2011)

The Revenue website has information on how to calculate rental profit or loss. Also, ask your accountant for his workings for capital allowances for the previous year as submitted, then you can see how he has calculated them.
You can download a Form 11 and try completing it, to find out if you will have any difficulties.


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## xertpo (1 Jun 2011)

I used foreigntaxreturns.ie and they did the job.


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## cremeegg (1 Jun 2011)

elainem said:


> I have 2 investment properties which are rented. I have been using the services of an accountant for e1700 p.a. However, the rent is low enough and I'm just wondering if I can self-assess on ROS - or how it works. Also have S23 in Wexford which I have been unable to rent since Jan. Wondering if it is feasible to just put all my details into ROS online for self-assessment. Wouldn't know how to caculate capital costs etc. Advice/comments welcome.



Of course you can do your own tax return. the question is can you do it well and without unreasonable time and effort.

Completing the return and filing it are not the issue. Compiling the info in such a way that you could justify the return in the event of a future tax audit is the issue.

IF IF your affairs are as straightforward as you say and even assuming a PAYE income also, €1,700 seems out of line.


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## T McGibney (2 Jun 2011)

cremeegg said:


> IF your affairs are as straightforward as you say and even assuming a PAYE income also, €1,700 seems out of line.



+1.  In fact, way out of line.


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## Jazzy (2 Jun 2011)

Hi Elainem,

Like you I have two investment properties and also use the services of an accountant (in the west dublin area) for the past five years.  He charges 430 per year.  If I was you i'd be shopping around.


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## kennyb3 (3 Jun 2011)

T McGibney said:


> +1. In fact, way out of line.


 
+2, seems way out of line unless something is hugely amiss. I reckon we'd quote about 450e - 500e for something similar.


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## elainem (3 Jun 2011)

Thanks everyone, really appreciate the replies. Have telephoned around and got quotes between e350 and e550 - so you are right my accountant was way out of line. I can't believe just how much! He used to tell me that my accounts were difficult as my rent went into current account and he had to wade through my daily purchases. I kept telling him that the properties have been rented to the same people for the last 4 years; that the rent is and has been the same through that time; that it comes into my account on 1st of each month and can be seen on my current account; that the rest of my income is PAYE. I provided him with all receipts for repairs etc on the properties, and statements for my savings accounts. Can someone please tell me why he needed to go through every purchase on my current account since the only monies we were concerned about was those from my rental properties which comes in on 1st of month, the other income was PAYE or maintenance from my ex and also came in on specific dates. Was he spoofing me about this being such an issues. He was probably right that the rent should go into a separate account, just never got around to changing it and I have use it for living expenses as I don't work full time. Would weclome some comments on this. Thanks again, help really appreciated!


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## cremeegg (4 Jun 2011)

He was correct to say that he had to look at each transaction in the account. 

You should have organised a separate account for rental income and expenses. 

This does justify your accountant charging you more. €1,700 still very high.

He probably thought that if you never got round to changing the bank account you would never get round to changing accountant either.


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## Bronte (6 Jun 2011)

It is advisable that your rental income goes into a separate account.  That way you can see clearly all costs and income.  Sounds like your accountant was also doing your book keeping.  It takes time to go through bank accounts if this is what he was doing.  Still and all the fee is way high.


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## Greta (6 Jun 2011)

Is it necessary for the accountant to look at the bank statements at all? Couldn't OP just provide him with details of all income and expenses during the year for each property?

It's impossible to tell in many instances anyway what various entries in the bank statement refer to - for example, if anything was paid for by cheque, only cheque number and amount appear on the bank statement. Was the cheque for a personal expense? For property expense? - for a capital item or a revenue one? - no way of knowing...


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## cremeegg (7 Jun 2011)

Greta said:


> Is it necessary for the accountant to look at the bank statements at all? Couldn't OP just provide him with details of all income and expenses during the year for each property?
> 
> It's impossible to tell in many instances anyway what various entries in the bank statement refer to - for example, if anything was paid for by cheque, only cheque number and amount appear on the bank statement. Was the cheque for a personal expense? For property expense? - for a capital item or a revenue one? - no way of knowing...



If your acccountant doesnt ask what the transactions are he is not doing his job, (or she). 

A Revenue inspector would certainly ask


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## Greta (8 Jun 2011)

cremeegg said:


> If your acccountant doesnt ask what the transactions are he is not doing his job, (or she).
> 
> A Revenue inspector would certainly ask



Yes, but an accountant is not a Revenue inspector - is there any NEED for him to go over the bank statements if the client can provide him with all the figures? 

What I mean is, it's better to do the bookkeeping yourself and just give the accountant the figures relating to the rental properties and what kind of expenditure/income they were - rent received, agent's fees, repairs to boiler, replacement of sofa, insurance, mortgage interest etc etc.

It would take the accountant little time and effort to put these figures into the tax return then, hopefully keeping his fee low.

On the other hand, if the accountant has to go over a year's worth of bank accounts, querying everything, in order to prepare the tax return, it will take him a long time and the fee will reflect this, as in OP's case.

I just don't see the point of all this - surely it's not that difficult to just write down any rental income and expenses as they occur, with dates, amounts and descriptions as to what they relate to, and give the list to the accountant together with P60, annual mortgage statements, bank interest statements etc?


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## Bronte (8 Jun 2011)

cremeegg said:


> If your acccountant doesnt ask what the transactions are he is not doing his job, (or she).


 
How is that the job of the accountant?


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## Butter (16 Jun 2011)

I give my accountant the details of all my rental income, expenses & receipts, medical expenses, P60s etc.   My husband and I are PAYE workers with two rental properties.  Granted I do a bit of the work myself.  My accountant has charged me less than €200 a year for doing our tax return.


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## pavlov (15 Nov 2011)

We paid €250 this year for our accountant to do our tax return. We just provide them with all income and expenses. They've given us a reduction in their fee this year and last as soon as we asked.


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## onq (15 Nov 2011)

Is your accountant chartered - can he sign off on business accounts?


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## mandelbrot (16 Nov 2011)

onq said:


> Is your accountant chartered - can he sign off on business accounts?



That question isn't really relevant to the thread at hand, which is concerned with the personal income tax returns of individuals. No-one has mentioned trades /business accounts, nor do I think even the cheapest accountants would be quoting as low as €250 to do a set of trade accounts, rental P/L and Form 11!

And anyway, an accountant doesn't have to be chartered (or certified!) to sign off accounts, as the use of the title isn't legally protected, any Tom Dick or Harry can put themselves out as an accountant.

And (even more) anyway, an accountant's report on an unaudited set of accounts isn't worth the paper it's written on, as it generally runs along the lines of:
_
"It is our responsibility to compile the financial statements of <__client name> from the accounting records, information and explanations supplied to us by <the directors / our client>.

Scope of work

We compiled the financial statements in accordance with the guidance contained in M14 Compiling and reporting on financial statements not subject to audit from the accounting records and information and explanations supplied to us by <the directors / our client>.
*
We have not audited or otherwise attempted to verify the accuracy or completeness of such records, information and explanations and, accordingly, express no opinion on the financial statements*."
_
So they're not really signing off on anything, except to basically say, "OK this guy gave me some bank statements and receipts in a shoebox, and I cobbled together a set of accounts based on that info and the answers he gave me to the questions I asked him, and this is the result, but I'm not necessarily saying that it's right or wrong (I just want to get paid thanks!)"


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