# Recording Conversations



## MandaC (2 Mar 2010)

I was speaking to a customer today and got the distinct impression he was recording the conversation.  Is it legal to record phone conversations.  Am I within my rights if he is recording the conversation, not to speak to him.


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## mathepac (2 Mar 2010)

AFAIK, it is not illegal for me to record a dialogue / conversation I am party to, whereas it is illegal for me to record the conversations of others  (aka "phone-tapping").

Naturally I can opt out of a conversation I believe or suspect is being recorded, but what then; face to face meetings, written communications only or the ultimate ignominy,  written communications via the legal eagles?


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## MandaC (2 Mar 2010)

Sorry, should have clarified this was a phone conversation - 
I suppose there is nothing you can do if you do not know for definite.  I did not realise when I was speaking to him either that he had used abusive language to  another member of staff either, or he would have been told where to go, recording or no recording.


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## NovaFlare77 (2 Mar 2010)

Just playing devil's advocate, if the customer had told you the call was being recorded either before or during the call, would your employer have allowed you to terminate the call for that reason alone?

Similar to Mathepac, I think conversations can be recorded by one or more of the parties involved, but I'm not too sure what can be done with them if all parties haven't given their consent to the recording. E.g. I'd be very surprised if they could be used in any court case, etc.

I've had a look at the data protection website in the off chance there's something there, but it's more geared towards recordings made by businesses of their customers.


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## MandaC (2 Mar 2010)

If person had said I am recording conversation,  I would not have continued to deal with person and asked him to put his queries in writing please, or if anyone else was prepared to take the call, they could dealt with it.  Likewise, had I known he was abusive to another member of staff earlier on, he would have been advised the same way.

There would not be an issue with my employer had I taken these steps.


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## Chocks away (2 Mar 2010)

I would have thought that there would be implications with the intellectual rights. Therefore illegal unless notified prior.


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## jack2009 (2 Mar 2010)

As far as I know if the person was recording the conversation then the recording is for their ears only.  So what have you to worry about its just like talking to a person who can recall a conversation verbatim. 

Unless you said something you should not have said and it was a test set up by your employer!!!!!


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## mercman (2 Mar 2010)

I asked the same question on AAM previously. It is a most disgusting thing to do to anybody. Sure some companies / Banks tell phone callers that the conversation are taped. However in my own case I had a close friend tape our conversations when I caught him. He admitted the taping and stated he tapes all conversations. What a boffoon.  Needless to say he is an ex friend and he has not even made an effort to apologize. I have deemed that I will never speak to him again ever.


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## MandaC (2 Mar 2010)

jack2009 said:


> As far as I know if the person was recording the conversation then the recording is for their ears only.  So what have you to worry about its just like talking to a person who can recall a conversation verbatim.
> 
> Unless you said something you should not have said and it was a test set up by your employer!!!!!



Eh, our employer has more respect for our staff than that..................regarding saying something I should not have said,  I don' t get what you mean by that.......why would I do that?

Mercman, I am on the same wavelength as you on this one.   I have no problem in trying to help someone and will always try and help a genuine customer.  However, if someone wants to play it that way, not interested.  I would be even more annoyed if someone did that on a personal level and that would be the end of our friendship too.

BTW, have nothing to hide - just don't operate that way and I have a real problem with sneaky two faced people.


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## Mpsox (3 Mar 2010)

It's illegal to record a conversation without the consent of the other party involved. However many companies do so, for training purposes and may include a clause in their terms and conditions saying that they may record. In addition, if they inform you in advance ( eg many call centres give a recorded message) and you decide to continue the conversation, you would probably be deemed to have consented to the recording.


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## Caveat (3 Mar 2010)

I think the phone aspect in particular adds another dimension. 
By phone, strictly speaking, I don't think consent is necessarily required - simply that the person is _advised _that you are recording. Obviously in practice though it would amount to much the same thing as many would terminate the conversation at this point.

On the other hand, I think it is permitted to record conversations in a public place/arena.

AFAIK, I could tape people on a train for example or in a park.

What you can or cannot do with the actual recordings is another matter.


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## MandaC (3 Mar 2010)

Mpsox said:


> It's illegal to record a conversation without the consent of the other party involved. However many companies do so, for training purposes and may include a clause in their terms and conditions saying that they may record. In addition, if they inform you in advance ( eg many call centres give a recorded message) and you decide to continue the conversation, you would probably be deemed to have consented to the recording.



Thought this might be the position allright.  Thanks.  It is the bit that I was not advised that got to me.  If person said I am recording this, would have said, bye now, away you go.


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## michaelm (3 Mar 2010)

mathepac said:


> AFAIK, it is not illegal for me to record a dialogue / conversation I am party to, whereas it is illegal for me to record the conversations of others  (aka "phone-tapping").


I would have thought the statement above, rather than the statement below, was correct.  I am, as always, open to correction.





Mpsox said:


> It's illegal to record a conversation without the consent of the other party involved


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## Padraigb (3 Mar 2010)

[broken link removed]


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## RIAD_BSC (3 Mar 2010)

Mpsox said:


> It's illegal to record a conversation without the consent of the other party involved.


 
Rubbish. It is not in the slightest bit illegal. It is only illegal to record a third-party telephone conversation between two other people, when the person doing the recording is not involved in the conversation and doesn't have anyone's consent to record the conversation.

If the OP's customer was one of the two parties in the telephone conversation (which he clearly was) then he has the right to record it without telling the other person. Only one of the two parties involved needs to give consent for it to be recorded legally.

It's a rude thing to do (and that's an entirely different topic), but it is not one bit illegal.

Ask any journalist in town and they will tell you. They all do it on potentially contentious calls (and with the full knowledge and support of their lawyers, who advise them that it is perfectly legal).


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## batty (3 Mar 2010)

mercman said:


> I asked the same question on AAM previously. It is a most disgusting thing to do to anybody. Sure some companies / Banks tell phone callers that the conversation are taped. However in my own case I had a close friend tape our conversations when I caught him. He admitted the taping and stated he tapes all conversations. What a boffoon. Needless to say he is an ex friend and he has not even made an effort to apologize. I have deemed that I will never speak to him again ever.


 

It's OT MM by why on earth would your mate want to tape your phone calls?  It just seem's to be a very odd thing to do.  (I'm not doubting you, just very curious).


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## mercman (3 Mar 2010)

batty said:


> why on earth would your mate want to tape your phone calls?  It just seem's to be a very odd thing to do.



Believe me it is true. He was a very close confidant who obviously got his thrill from taping and listening others' conversations. In the heated exchange at the time, he told me he taped all his conversations. I class him as a pervert. Different strokes for different folks but alas and without an apology I will never speak with him ever again.


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## JoeB (3 Mar 2010)

I think it's legal for you to record phone calls without consent, if you are an individual, not a company.

I don't think it'd be legal for a journalist, unless he's doing it in a private capacity.. but if he's doing it for his job he must inform the other party.

I don't believe staff should have the right to refuse to engage in phone calls if the other party is recording calls legally. I know of at least one phone company who will originally state that it's illegal for customers to record phone calls, then they'll retract this as it's not true, but they will allow their staff not to engage in phone calls if the other party is legally recording the call, I think this is wrong.

Would they allow their staff not to talk to customers who are of the wrong sex, or religion, or who support the wrong football team? Should staff be permitted to choose whether they do their job or not? (Companies should tell staff that they must take calls even if they're being recorded, and if they're unhappy with this they shouldn't take the job, or they should resign.)

A similar idea would be photos.. people who work in public places can have their photo taken.. if they don't like this can they leave their post?, and not do their job? Should the employer allow this?.. for example for hotel doormen?, or those Queens Guards in London?, or a street sweeper?, or a bus driver?


Mercman... to be honest your problem is with the use to which your friend put the recording, not with the recording itself... although I can see your point of view, and that you're unhappy about the recording itself, and not just about the use to which the recording was put.


A judge in Ireland ruled in 2006 (in a tribunal I think) that it's fine for individuals to record phone calls... he said it was similar to taking notes, or to writing down contemporaneous notes.


Companies fall under the Data Protection Act, which doesn't apply to individuals.. (but it should apply to journalists, who I don't think can record calls without permission, or without 'implied permission' which would be if a recorded message said 'calls will be recorded', and the person stayed on the line anyway)

Cheers so


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## MandaC (3 Mar 2010)

I don't work in customer service and would be perfectly be within my rights to just say, sorry not my job, ring back to Johnny  but me being me, if I encounter customers I have no problem in helping them.  However, if they are rude or obnoxious in any way, sort it yourself mate, not my problem.

Thanks for the link Padraigb, this is the bit I was looking for - 
The recording of such calls – whether of customers or employees – needs to be made known to the individuals concerned. 

Person did not advise was recording, but tripped themself up!

I don't care what anyone else does, but I wont be entertaining them again.


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## Pique318 (4 Mar 2010)

Would people have such an issue with it if the person was making a shorthand transcript of the conversation?

I'd do it if I thought I was being railroaded, tbh.


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## Complainer (4 Mar 2010)

Mpsox said:


> It's illegal to record a conversation without the consent of the other party involved.


Do you have a source for this?


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## MandaC (4 Mar 2010)

Pique318 said:


> Would people have such an issue with it if the person was making a shorthand transcript of the conversation?
> 
> I'd do it if I thought I was being railroaded, tbh.



Yes, would have an issue with this.  I don't want to have a conversation with someone who writes or records what I say verbatim.

If a stranger in a car stopped their car and asked me for directions but wanted to record me, I would say no as well.

If I worked in a shop and a random person came in looking to record the conversation, I would keep stum too.

I have no problem with minutes of a meeting, etc, where action points or quotes are used.

In my case, got a call that was nothing directly to do with my job, still offered to help but then person trying to play silly beggars.  Person was not a reasonable individual and one of those who you could not help, unless you gave them exactly what they wanted, which was not reasonable in the first instance.  I have no business relationship with said individual, have never spoken to them in my life before and have no intention of speaking to them again either.


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## jack2009 (4 Mar 2010)

I would have thought taking detailed notes of telephone coversations would have been standard practice!

I do it all of the time and it is the only way I can keep track of what people say to me.

I would not see the harm in people recording conversations if they felt it was a handier way than keeping hand written/typed notes.  Obviously, I would have an objection if the recordings were played to a third part without my knowledge.


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## becky (4 Mar 2010)

I keep notes of most phone calls - not verbatim but that's because I don't have shorthand.  If I did I probably would.  That said I'm in HR and some people only hear what they want to hear.

I use to be taped by a now former employee (not mine) who taped everyone she rang.  We realised when she was able to quote verbatim what we said 3 weeks ago.  Someone did ask her if she was recording the converstion but she denied it.

Sure she wasn't well in the head (as My Dad use to say) so I continued to take her calls like other managers did.  I did have a note taker who noted what I said while I noted what she said.  It was all typed up immediatley afterwards and kept in safe place until she went away.


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## RIAD_BSC (4 Mar 2010)

JoeBallantin said:


> I don't think it'd be legal for a journalist, unless he's doing it in a private capacity.. but if he's doing it for his job he must inform the other party......
> 
> Companies fall under the Data Protection Act, which doesn't apply to individuals.. (but it should apply to journalists, who I don't think can record calls without permission, or without 'implied permission' which would be if a recorded message said 'calls will be recorded', and the person stayed on the line anyway)
> 
> Cheers so


 
Wrong. It is 100% legal for anyone - journalist, private individual, company, absolutely anybody - to record, or ask someone else to record, one of their own telephone conversations without telling the other party. Only the taping of third-party conversations, without permission, is illegal.


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## JoeB (4 Mar 2010)

PadriagB's link to the the Data Protection requirements only applies to companies... not to individuals... so private individuals can record away to their hearts content, and it would be perfectly legal, even without asking for, or receiving consent..

If the Data Protection laws applied to individuals then you could request copies of hand written phone and address books, or copies of wedding photos and videos , etc etc.. and it would quickly descend into chaos..


So to be clear, individuals can record calls legally, no problem, without telling the other party, as long as the individual is a party to the call...


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## JoeB (4 Mar 2010)

RIAD_BSC said:


> Wrong. It is 100% legal for anyone - journalist, private individual, company, absolutely anybody - to record, or ask someone else to record, one of their own telephone conversations without telling the other party. Only the taping of third-party conversations, without permission, is illegal.



Totally wrong... no-one should rely on this.

Here's a link to the Data Protection website..
[broken link removed]
and it clearly states that permission must be sought, by companies only !!, not individuals!


That Act covers virtually all private and public companies, with no exceptions as far as I know, except possibly the Guards, and maybe journalists, but I would have thought that journalists are covered, and can't record without consent...


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## MandaC (4 Mar 2010)

So is it that an individual can record a person from a company without telling them, but a company can't record an individual without telling them.

Has to be something wrong with that.


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## DavyJones (4 Mar 2010)

MandaC said:


> So is it that an individual can record a person from a company without telling them, but a company can't record an individual without telling them.
> 
> Has to be something wrong with that.



But whats the issue? You were dealing with a client in a professional capacity, why would you have an issue with it being taped.

I would have more of a problem if a personal chit chat was being recorded. In a professional converstaion I would hope i am just that, professional at all times. So recording it wouldn't be an issue.It is just a log of what was said.


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## JoeB (4 Mar 2010)

Yes, I believe it is like that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with it... in my opinion. The individual can't just publish the recording.. if they did so they may be in trouble, but I'm not sure. Michael Ryan (edited: Michael O' Leary) for example routinely publishes letters he receives, and I doubt he has express permission to do this, but he does it anyway, so that would seem to be legal.

The Data Protection laws prevents companies from compiling large databases with lots of data on individuals and then using the info for nefarious puposes, or even just for marketing purposes. The other reason might be the difficulty of enforcing rules on private individuals, ..


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## MandaC (4 Mar 2010)

DavyJones said:


> But whats the issue? You were dealing with a client in a professional capacity, why would you have an issue with it being taped.
> 
> I would have more of a problem if a personal chit chat was being recorded. In a professional converstaion I would hope i am just that, professional at all times. So recording it wouldn't be an issue.It is just a log of what was said.



Maybe the person just annoyed me.  Bully looking for own way and getting abusive when not entertained.   

The issue I have is that they did not tell me they were recording it, so courtesy in the first instance.  I caught them out  about the recording because they tripped themselves up.  A liar needs a good memory.

Secondly, they did not tell me they had used vile language (stream of expletives) to another member of staff less than 15 minutes earlier and lied about what was said in that conversation.

Thirdly, they lied about the nature of their call.

I am professional at all times, but expect the same back.   

I hate liars and don' t want to deal with people who lie to try to get other people into trouble.


Am actually going to ring Data Protection tomorrow. Not interested in customer now, but curious about the correct position.  Will update with what they say.


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## DavyJones (4 Mar 2010)

MandaC said:


> Maybe the person just annoyed me.  Bully looking for own way and getting abusive when not entertained.
> 
> The issue I have is that they did not tell me they were recording it, so courtesy in the first instance.  I caught them out  about the recording because they tripped themselves up.  A liar needs a good memory.
> 
> ...



I understand. To be honest I'd probably feel the exact same way.


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## JoeB (4 Mar 2010)

Here's some info...

Section 98 of the Postal and Telecommunications Services Act 1983 is what makes phone tapping illegal... but an intercept under that section is defined as 'listening to or recording', and so a party to a call clearly cannot intercept their own call, unless someone alleges it is also illegal to listen to your own calls!

('intercept' actually has a more complex definition but that's the gist of it.. also there may be various amendments and updates to the main Act, I'm not a solicitor...)

See statutebook.ie for Acts etc...


Here's another relevant link
http://www.tjmcintyre.com/2007/12/admissibility-of-recorded-telephone.html


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