# self builder hitting rock...



## Mikecork (15 Nov 2015)

hi

Currently building a house in cork.

What is the normal situation if the builder hits rock on the site?

What kind of costs can I expect or is the ground works price an all in price? Ie if rock builder has to pay to remove it


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## PaddyBloggit (15 Nov 2015)

Cost of cutting rock will be yours. A rock breaker costs roughly €40 per hour.

Builder's price only covers standard foundation. Any change from that is an added expense that you have to cover.


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## cremeegg (16 Nov 2015)

"Hitting rock" is one of the major hazards of the building business. It very much depends on the contract. For public sector contracts nowadays this is very much the builders problem, for a private housebuilding contract who knows. Take a very careful look at the contract, and tell the builder that he will of course have to deal with it. 

Unless the contract is clear you may have to meet the builder half way. I would not just automatically assume that you will have to bear the cost.

The argument is that the builder should have done a site investigation before giving you a price.


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## T McGibney (16 Nov 2015)

cremeegg said:


> "Hitting rock" is one of the major hazards of the building business. It very much depends on the contract. For public sector contracts nowadays this is very much the builders problem, for a private housebuilding contract who knows. Take a very careful look at the contract, and tell the builder that he will of course have to deal with it.
> 
> Unless the contract is clear you may have to meet the builder half way. I would not just automatically assume that you will have to bear the cost.
> 
> The argument is that the builder should have done a site investigation before giving you a price.



It's clearly the site owner's problem. 


The joys of self-build.


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## cremeegg (16 Nov 2015)

Its not clear. Unless you have seen the contract.

Presumably T you have seen the contract as you can be so certain.


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## T McGibney (16 Nov 2015)

Been there. That's all.


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## Mikecork (16 Nov 2015)

No mention of rock anywhere in the contract! Builder did the rock breaking and invoice arrived after and extra cost for removing the rock from site! 

Is it a legal issue then? What is the norm here? Person has to pay the builder or can they dispute the invoice?


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## Leo (16 Nov 2015)

It's going to come down to the specifics for dealing with such events in the contract you signed. If there are no such specifics, then there's a case that an approach should have been agreed prior to the work taking place. Your solicitor is best placed to advise.


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## kceire (16 Nov 2015)

You opted for the self build, final cost is on you. If you had an assigned certified he may have advised on trial holes before commencement and foundation design accordingly.


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## cremeegg (16 Nov 2015)

Mikecork said:


> No mention of rock anywhere in the contract!



No there wouldn't be.

Hitting rock is an unforeseen, it is not an extra, it is not a change.

I was once very well up on the standard construction contract used by the public sector, and for many years it put the cost of unforeseen items on the employer (the customer in effect). The logic being that if there is rock the builder has more work to do and so is entitled to charge extra. 

Then the standard contract was changed to put the cost of such items on the builder, the logic being that builder was the expert and should have done his homework before giving a price.

I have no idea what your contract says about unforeseen items, or if there is any disclaimer built into the builders quote. If the contract is silent I would think that you are in a strong position to argue that the builder should pick up the tab, for two reasons.

1. He should have done a proper investigation to find out what work was needed before he gave you a price.

2. The standard contract in the public sector puts this cost on the builder. Obviously this is not a public sector job, but that standard contract accounts for the majority of work in Ireland and could be looked to as standard practice.

Question, did you employ an engineer or an architect ?


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## Mikecork (16 Nov 2015)

Sorry my headline is misleading, I have a main contractor for the entire build. Im not self building!

I have both employed, they are with the builder. My cost!


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## cremeegg (16 Nov 2015)

If the engineer and the architect both agree that it is your cost, then it probably is.

For your own peace of mind ask them what they base this opinion on. And why did they builder not do a site survey before giving you a price.

And what about the engineers role, did he do a survey, did he draw up a schedule of works.


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## Mikecork (16 Nov 2015)

Site was surveyed, no rock was found until they got into the ground!


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## PaddyBloggit (16 Nov 2015)

Still your cost no matter what way you look at it. No builder would sign a contract where he would cover unforeseen costs like the breaking of rock.


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## kceire (17 Nov 2015)

cremeegg said:


> If the engineer and the architect both agree that it is your cost, then it probably is.
> 
> For your own peace of mind ask them what they base this opinion on. And why did they builder not do a site survey before giving you a price.
> 
> And what about the engineers role, did he do a survey, did he draw up a schedule of works.



Why would a builder carry out a survey of the site before pricing? 

The onus is on the guy preparing the tender package to include everything. If something arises that's not in the tender package he is entitled to charge it as an extra.


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## Bronte (17 Nov 2015)

To me it's unforseen and therefore the cost goes to Mikecork.


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## cremeegg (17 Nov 2015)

PaddyBloggit said:


> Still your cost no matter what way you look at it. No builder would sign a contract where he would cover unforeseen costs like the breaking of rock.



Every builder who builds a school does.


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## cremeegg (17 Nov 2015)

kceire said:


> The onus is on the guy preparing the tender package to include everything. If something arises that's not in the tender package he is entitled to charge it as an extra.



Are you offering that as your opinion or as a fact. If its your opinion fair enough. 

If you think its a fact do you have some basis for it or did you just make it up.


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## PaddyBloggit (17 Nov 2015)

cremeegg said:


> Every builder who builds a school does.



They must factor that into their tender cost so. No builder is going to build at a loss. Any time I've dealt with a builder the foundation quote was for a standard foundation with the proviso that rock breaking would cost extra and having the use footings etc. would also cost more.


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## cremeegg (18 Nov 2015)

From the public works short form of contract, which of course is not your contract, but it is as close as there is to standard practice in the industry,

"4.4 In this Contract, Compensation Event means any of the following:........

  the Contractor encounters on the Site unforeseeable ground conditions or unforeseeable man-made obstructions in the ground.........


In the above definition, something is unforeseeable if an experienced Contractor tendering for the Works could not have reasonably foreseen it, having inspected the Site and taking into account all the information provided by the Employer. "



To my mind this means the builder should have been foreseen the rock, how hard is it to stick a pole in the ground to test the soil.


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## kceire (18 Nov 2015)

cremeegg said:


> Are you offering that as your opinion or as a fact. If its your opinion fair enough.
> 
> If you think its a fact do you have some basis for it or did you just make it up.



Based on my past contracts in the private sector between private land owners and contractors.
When you issue tender drawings for pricing, you do not allow each builder onto the site to carry out their own site assessment, you as the land owner get a site assessment carried out prior to us (The Engineers) designing the foundations and any associated sub-structure works.

The OP is building a house, so a PPP/Public Works contract would not apply here I would imagine.


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## Clubber Lang (8 Jan 2016)

cremeegg said:


> From the public works short form of contract, which of course is not your contract, but it is as close as there is to standard practice in the industry,
> 
> "4.4 In this Contract, Compensation Event means any of the following:........
>   the Contractor encounters on the Site unforeseeable ground conditions or unforeseeable man-made obstructions in the ground.........
> ...



Sorry to resurrect this, undertaking my own extension soon enough so trawling here for any tips.

A little bit off topic, but on the above, your interpretation is incorrect and wouldn't stand up if the disputed claimed came before a conciliator.  Current public works contracts are priced from the contract drawings, with whatever GI reports completed included as supporting information.  If the Client / Employer doesn't know rock is present, what hope has the Contractor?  You also assume the rock is found at a shallow depth.  

Regardless, if the Contractor carried the risk for such, the Client would still carry the cost as the risk would be accounted for in the completed rates in the Pricing Document.


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