# If we seek to amend our planning permission...



## Brigid (6 Mar 2010)

Hi, we have obtained plannning permission for a house with an upstairs and down stairs. There is a large attic space but the ridge height won't be high enough to stand up anywhere except the centre. It seems like a shame not to be able to use it or anything more than storage and we were thinking of increasing the ridge height by a couple of feet.  we have no neighbours that it would interfere with and it is not on a horizon for anyone. One engineer we spoke to said that he would have no difficulty issuing a certificate of compliance if we were to increase the height by a couple of feet since it would be in substantial compliance, an architect we spoke to said that we would have to go back to the County Council to get their approval.  Of course we could go ahead anyway and seek retention later but there is an obvious risk with that. *My question is* if we were to get planning permission for the higher ridge height, would that make it in to a formal 3 story building and are there consequent and expensive further regulations to be adhered to and would the local authority seek a larger planning contribution - at the moment it is about €8,000 plus interest until paid.  I presume that if we were to seek to amend the planning permission and if it was either refused or such onerous conditions were imposed that we didnt want to proceed with it, we could revert to the permission that we already have - or does an application to amend override completely the initial permission.

Thank you for your considerations...


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## Superman (6 Mar 2010)

Brigid said:


> Hi, we have obtained plannning permission for a house with an upstairs and down stairs. There is a large attic space but the ridge height won't be high enough to stand up anywhere except the centre. It seems like a shame not to be able to use it or anything more than storage and we were thinking of increasing the ridge height by a couple of feet.  we have no neighbours that it would interfere with and it is not on a horizon for anyone. One engineer we spoke to said that he would have no difficulty issuing a certificate of compliance if we were to increase the height by a couple of feet since it would be in substantial compliance, an architect we spoke to said that we would have to go back to the County Council to get their approval.  Of course we could go ahead anyway and seek retention later but there is an obvious risk with that. *My question is* if we were to get planning permission for the higher ridge height, would that make it in to a formal 3 story building and are there consequent and expensive further regulations to be adhered to and would the local authority seek a larger planning contribution - at the moment it is about €8,000 plus interest until paid.  I presume that if we were to seek to amend the planning permission and if it was either refused or such onerous conditions were imposed that we didnt want to proceed with it, we could revert to the permission that we already have - or does an application to amend override completely the initial permission.
> 
> Thank you for your considerations...


That Engineer's advice is appalling!  You might get away with a foot - but a couple of feet!  
It would only be a formal 3 storey building if you put accommodation up there.  The Planning Department people aren't stupid though - so if it looks suspiciously like someone can stand up in your attic and there is an oddly shaped "storage space" on your 1st floor which could conveniently be converted into a stairs, they'll start asking questions.

There are lots of extra Fire Reg. requirements for 3 storey houses regarding.  In practice, these are quite "annoying" - self closers on your doors etc.
(There are ways around this, but they tend to be expensive)

I don't believe that a new Permission would invalidate your current Permission - but am not certain. 
Your development levy would be increased.

My Basic advice: Talk to your local area Planner, and be straight with them.  3 storey houses are unusual in the countryside and may not be granted Permission in principle in your area.  Easier to be told "no chance" by your Planner (though Planners will be very diplomatic in saying this and don't generally give definitive answers pre-Planning, so read between the lines and don't impose your own answer on their words) than going to the expense of getting someone to submit something for you and then finding out.


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## onq (6 Mar 2010)

Brigid said:


> Hi, we have obtained plannning permission for a house with an upstairs and down stairs. There is a large attic space but the ridge height won't be high enough to stand up anywhere except the centre. It seems like a shame not to be able to use it or anything more than storage and we were thinking of increasing the ridge height by a couple of feet.  we have no neighbours that it would interfere with and it is not on a horizon for anyone. One engineer we spoke to said that he would have no difficulty issuing a certificate of compliance if we were to increase the height by a couple of feet since it would be in substantial compliance, an architect we spoke to said that we would have to go back to the County Council to get their approval.  Of course we could go ahead anyway and seek retention later but there is an obvious risk with that.


Your architect is correct Brigid in terms of proper procedure.
I have had a poor experience recently with a supposedly "well-connected" engineer promising a solution.
I don't mean he was bent or offering brown paper envelopes, just that he said he knew someone on the Local Authority [LA] who he felt he could persuade to his way of thinking in term of a particular solution.
If you follow your engineers advice and there's a new guy or gal in the planning office full of vim and gusto and they spot your increased ridge height you could be hit with an enforcement action before you know it.
It all depends on the planner for the area and these change every three years or more.
So within the 7 year period after which it becomes impossible to issue enforcement action under the 2000 Act you could be unlucky.
You will need a revised planning application.


> *My question is* if we were to get planning permission for the higher ridge height, would that make it in to a formal 3 story building and are there consequent and expensive further regulations to be adhered to and would the local authority seek a larger planning contribution - at the moment it is about €8,000 plus interest until paid.  I presume that if we were to seek to amend the planning permission and if it was either refused or such onerous conditions were imposed that we didn't want to proceed with it, we could revert to the permission that we already have - or does an application to amend override completely the initial permission.


Depending on your plan and section, if its carefully designed it is possible you may get permission for revision to previously approved elevations - as a two storey dwelling - and later convert the attic compliantly if you wish.
It depends on the width of the attic and the slope of the roof.
Assuming you can work it within the existing floor/section/attic plan the base permission floor area is not changing and no new development floor area is proposed.
Thus there should be no change to your levy, but you need to ask your LA about this this to see what their particular list of approved levies is like.
Whatever permission you proceed with is the one that is put in place.

In terms of the attic conversion you will need to take advice in relation to doing things during the building works that will avoid unnecessary expense to support the later conversion.
Measures to comply with Part B of the Building Regulations Fire Safety may include:

increasing fire rating of intermediate floors
installing a protected stairs route to final exit
installing a compliant stairs access to the attic.
installing alternative escape windows in the roof
installing attic timbers to support the later conversion.
installing a higher specification fire detection and alarm system.
There is also a significant and to some degree onerous balancing act to be reached between the requirements of Part L Conservtion of Fuel and Energy and the new Part F Ventilation.
All these regulations in their current form can be bought from the Government Publications Office Molesworth Street, D2, or downloaded here: http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/
Apart from the building regulations, there are a lot of issues to be discussed to ensure you don't fall foul of the planning laws, including the timing of any conversion.

Normally your planning permission will contain the standard Condition One Wording:
_"The Development shall be carried out in accordance with the plans and particulars lodged."_
Thsi means you have to build it as permitted FIRST - before you carry out any extensions or conversions.
Many people forget that and can fall foul of a diligent enforcement officer.

Stick with a standard-looking two storey house is my best advice.
Then, if you aren't prevented by condition, converting your attic it is normally considered to be exempted development.
Be careful about trying to get more height by going for a two-and-a half storey house - the compromises in the roof construction can lead to walls cracking.
Plus that really would be like a red rag to a bull with the planners.



> Thank you for your considerations...


You're very welcome, but more detailed questions will be best answered by someone much closer to the action than the advisers here.
This forum is not intended to take real life work away from professionals but rather to help lay people to better understand the issues.



HTH

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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## Brigid (6 Mar 2010)

Thank you - I fully appreciate the basis of this forum and of course in the final analysis will obtain and follow the advices of whom ever we go to to assist in the supervision of the construction. However the more prepared we are the better able we will be to ask the right questions.


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