# Official Assignee applying for Payments Order from Day 1



## Brendan Burgess (27 Jan 2014)

I have been told that in bankruptcy cases, the OA is applying for payments orders from Day 1. 

This means that the bankrupt is tied to the Minimum Living Expenses for 5 years and not just the three of bankruptcy. 

On the other hand, it means that there is some certainty that the payments Order won't start at the end of the bankruptcy and last another 5 years. 


If this is correct, then people should just go to England if at all possible. 

Brendan


----------



## Steve Thatcher (27 Jan 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I have been told that in bankruptcy cases, the OA is applying for payments orders from Day 1.
> 
> This means that the bankrupt is tied to the Minimum Living Expenses for 5 years and not just the three of bankruptcy.
> 
> ...



Brilliant isn't it. Promote a three year bankruptcy and then force you to live wholly unrealistically for five years. At what stage does a person say "no thanks"!, I want to take my kids on holiday, or treat them or allow them to have things all kids should have.

UK welcomes you people.

Steve Thatcher
[broken link removed]


----------



## Matthew Moore (27 Jan 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I have been told that in bankruptcy cases, the OA is applying for payments orders from Day 1.
> 
> This means that the bankrupt is tied to the Minimum Living Expenses for 5 years and not just the three of bankruptcy.
> 
> ...




This was always going to be the case and understandably so. In the UK they will stick an income order for 3 years on you and the cases I've heard of this seems to be towards the end of the process. So in reality you have 6 months to establish your COMI, 1 year bankruptcy and then a 3 year IPA/IPO. If you have disposable income then at best you're looking at more than 3 1/2 years in the UK system v 5 in the Irish. Based purely on years I don't see the argument for going to the UK but maybe the living allowances are vastly different.


----------



## Matthew Moore (27 Jan 2014)

Steve Thatcher said:


> Brilliant isn't it. Promote a three year bankruptcy and then force you to live wholly unrealistically for five years. At what stage does a person say "no thanks"!, I want to take my kids on holiday, or treat them or allow them to have things all kids should have.
> 
> UK welcomes you people.
> 
> ...



Is there an all inclusive living allowance for people in bankruptcy in the uk based on family size like the ISI has published? 
I presume there is something which excludes rent or mortgage so please link to these when you have a chance.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (27 Jan 2014)

Hi pat

I got the impression that income orders were rare in Britain. 

In fact, the advice to people seems to be to take a low paying job for the year of bankruptcy, so that the OR loses interest in you.

Brendan


----------



## Stu24 (28 Jan 2014)

Is this just for people with a DI after the RLEs are used to assess them Brendan? Or are they hiting them with a token paymeny to tie then into 5 yrs


----------



## Matthew Moore (28 Jan 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi pat
> 
> I got the impression that income orders were rare in Britain.
> 
> ...



Hi Brendan

I've read that the guidelines are that they will seek an IPA or IPO on disposable income over £20/month in the UK. I believe this was the insolvency services guidelines. I'll try to find the link.
You could always take the same approach in Ireland and keep your income below Reasonable Living Expenses (RLE) and mortgage/rent allowance. They can't take anything off you if you are earning below RLE
For example a couple who have a car and 2 children, 1 in primary school and 1 in secondary would have a RLE of €1892/month. Add a reasonable 3 bed semi d type mortage of say €1300/month. That's €3192/month nett that they can earn before they have disposable income available for a IPA/IPO. They will also be getting €230 a month children's allowance. 
I think the RLE's are fine and a nett income of €737/week into a household is far from low paid.
If people are bankrupt they need to cut their cloth and personally I don't think what's been asked is unfair, I know plenty of people who could only dream of having such a monthly income.


----------



## Matthew Moore (28 Jan 2014)

There is a guide to the RLE's that the UK insolvency service will accept on this page. You must register to view it. http://www.debtwizard.com/debt-help/debt-solutions/603-lenders-expenditure-guide

Based on the 2 adult 2 kids example I gave above I've worked out that in the UK they would accept RLE's of £1312/month plus reasonable mortgage/rent using these guidelines. This is about €1595 at todays exchange rate, almost €300/month less than they would accept in Ireland.

Please correct me if I'm wrong and provide some links as data on what they'll accept seems hard to come by.


----------



## Bronte (28 Jan 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I got the impression that income orders were rare in Britain.
> 
> In fact, the advice to people seems to be to take a low paying job for the year of bankruptcy, so that the OR loses interest in you.


 
That's my understanding of it too.  We have an example in Ivan Yates.  He has a pension of 70K plus whatever he's getting from Newstalk.  

Perhaps Steve Thatcher can clarify.


----------



## no_moolah (28 Jan 2014)

I also thought that IPOs were rare in the UK. I would be interested in knowing what the current position is


----------



## Matthew Moore (28 Jan 2014)

no_moolah said:


> I also thought that IPOs were rare in the UK. I would be interested in knowing what the current position is




It seems if you have more than £20/month disposable income they are not rare at all. http://www.theguardian.com/money/2011/mar/19/bankruptcy-life-after-debt

Maybe the majority of people stay under that amount but that would always be possible here too so its back to 3 years versus 18 months and better benefits and less hassle here.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....n/technical/incomepaymentordersagreements.htm


----------



## Matthew Moore (28 Jan 2014)

*UK Disposable Income and Living Expenses Calculator*

Handy calculator which lists many of the reasonable living expenses guidelines (Just click on the "i" beside each heading). It's used to see how much income is available for an IPA/IPO.
[broken link removed]


----------



## Matthew Moore (28 Jan 2014)

Bronte said:


> That's my understanding of it too.  We have an example in Ivan Yates.  He has a pension of 70K plus whatever he's getting from Newstalk.
> 
> Perhaps Steve Thatcher can clarify.




Seems a little more than 20% have IPO/IPA attached on average. Maybe not widespread but definetly common.
[broken link removed]

More statistics here:[broken link removed]

Considering the level of unemployment and low paid workers here I would be surprised if the Irish system has a higher average% when it's looked back on in a few years.


----------



## Setanta12 (28 Jan 2014)

Bronte said:


> We have an example in Ivan Yates.  He has a pension of 70K plus whatever he's getting from Newstalk.



Not sure if quoting actual person's (celebrity's?) details would generate more light than heat.  (Ivan isn't actually unknown in Ireland in any case)


----------



## Steve Thatcher (29 Jan 2014)

pat2 said:


> Hi Brendan
> 
> I've read that the guidelines are that they will seek an IPA or IPO on disposable income over £20/month in the UK. I believe this was the insolvency services guidelines. I'll try to find the link.
> You could always take the same approach in Ireland and keep your income below Reasonable Living Expenses (RLE) and mortgage/rent allowance. They can't take anything off you if you are earning below RLE
> ...



Gents I can only give you the facts as I have encountered them. In over 250 Irish bankruptcies, I have had IPA's put in place on four occasions.

All of these were in situations where the clients had already settled in the UK and were in well paid jobs. All were happy to pay the IPA's and in all cases I was able to really restrict what might otherwise have been paid if the client had not made full use of all the little tricks.

In other cases where there was a real prospect of an IPA, I have been able to struck the allowances to avoid the IPA.

In no case where I have moved individuals and families to the UK has an IPA been put in place.

It is all about how you structure the move.

I would certainly not discount the move to the UK based upon the IPA reason alone.

In Ireland you may have no opportunity to avoid the IPA. In the UK you have the chance to structure to avoid it.

In Ireland you are it would seem stuck in a restrictive spending situation for 5 years. If you can budget for it and are prepared to live that way then an irish bankruptcy may be better for you.

Steve Thatcher
www.stevethatcher.ie


----------



## Time (29 Jan 2014)

As always in Ireland the house always wins. 

That is excellent advice as always Steve.


----------



## Matthew Moore (3 Feb 2014)

Steve Thatcher said:


> Gents I can only give you the facts as I have encountered them. In over 250 Irish bankruptcies, I have had IPA's put in place on four occasions.
> 
> In other cases where there was a real prospect of an IPA, I have been able to struck the allowances to avoid the IPA.



That's a great performance Steve. Considering the UK average is 20.5% of bankruptcies resulting in an IPA/IPO. You average of 1.6% is truly amazing. 
I understand that you have to keep your "tricks" secret but please tell us, in your dealings what is roughly the maximum RLE of a family of 4, say 2 adults and 2 kids 8 and 15 years old that you have encountered?
Exclude mortgage/rental/non standard costs as of course these can vary.

I'm very interested to know because in the research I've done and pages I've linked to all seem suggest the living expenses are considerably more generous in Ireland.



Steve Thatcher said:


> In Ireland you may have no opportunity to avoid the IPA. In the UK you have the chance to structure to avoid it.
> 
> In Ireland you are it would seem stuck in a restrictive spending  situation for 5 years. If you can budget for it and are prepared to live  that way then an irish bankruptcy may be better for you.



This is not true. A IPA/IPO could be avoided in Ireland exactly the same way you propose to avoid it in the UK. Keep your income below the RLE's.
If you do that then it is a 3 year process in Ireland.


----------



## Matthew Moore (3 Feb 2014)

Time said:


> As always in Ireland the house always wins.
> 
> That is excellent advice as always Steve.



I don't understand how "the house always wins"?

The very nature of bankruptcy is that your creditors are going to lose.


----------

