# Landlord is keeping deposit *and* billing us €10k



## newbieineire

Good day everyone, 

I have been reading the past threads with much interest over the last few weeks. We have had the following situation with our ex-landlord ... it will be long, mind you.  I had typed this but it was lost in oblivion, so here we go again: 

We rented a "high-standard" 3 bed-semi detached fully furnished house for 19 months. The rent was agreed via a letting agent but once the contract was signed, we were handed over to the landlord who would then deal with everything. We were never given a walk-through of the property nor an inventory with everything that was in it. Likewise, we were never given a rent book or any receipts of rent paid - though we have proof of the rent paid via bank statements with transfers made to the landlord's account. 

The property was clean when we moved in, but in no way was it spotless when we moved in. Considering we are a family of 2 adults and 2 young boys aged 5 and 2, we were not too bothered. What I was bothered about was that the duvets, pillows and bedcovers all had an awful body odour smell. The kitchen also had a roasting tin in the sink full of grease and soapy water. We considered petty to report this, so we just sent the bedding to be dry-cleaned and disposed of the tin. I found it amusing at the time (if I had known...), the fact that the house had an all-round music/multimedia system and a home-theatre sound system, etc, but no kettle, no toaster and no waste bin, to name some things. But then again, since we had no inventory we just thought that was what was in the house and we got the things we needed, such as a toaster, kettle, etc. 

We vacated the house on 31st December 2009. Upon departure, we notified the landlord of 3 significant damages to the property: one was three leather dining chairs which had been scribbled with a pen by my youngest son, the other one was a broken DVD player which was replaced with a Blu-ray/DVD player of a much higher specification, brand new in box, and lastly scribbles in the walls in the boys' bedroom. We got quotes for painting these walls and they came to €500. The chairs were €700 for a full set of 5. We then offered him to retain €1200 of the deposit (which is €2,100) to cover for these damages. 

In return, we got an email with a list of damages and "missing items" the list is too long to put on here, but it is truly ridiculous, citing €300 for a kettle and toaster that never existed, €100 for a broken velux blind when the velux windows do not even -have- fittings for blinds! €5,000 for repainting the whole house when it was just -two- walls the ones that need repainting ... the list goes on and on. The list of damages according to him amounts to over €10,000, he is deducting our deposit (2,000, not the 2100 euro he's got) and he has billed us for almost €8,000. We told him that if he was not happy with the €1,200 we would then take the matter to a dispute with the PRTB in order to look for recovery of our full deposit and gave him 7 days to reply. Since we heard nothing from him in that time we went ahead and placed a dispute with the PRTB. 

This morning we got a letter from his solicitor's giving us 7 days to pay the €8,000. This is so absurd that it is almost surreal, but we are at a loss at what to do next. Is it worth us getting solicitor's advice? The man is completely delusional. 

Do we reply the solicitors telling them that a PRTB dispute has been set and they will contact his client in due course? Do we get a solicitor ourselves? I have been trying to contact threshold but they are always busy.   We pretty much do not what to do next. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. 

Many thanks.


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## DonKing

I certainly would not be wasting money with solicitor's. 

I'm not sure if you are still in the house, but I would take photographs etc before you leave and get a witness to walk the house with you and possibly the landlord.(but it sounds as if you are past this stage)

I don't see why you should necessarily even respond to the solicitors letter. What do they think is going to happen after 7 days??

I'd make sure you have all your facts straight and recorded,including an inventory of what was in the house when you arrived.

If the landlord did not attach an inventory onto the contract/lease then that was his mistake and problem. If you have evidence ie receipts for kettles etc then keep them as well. 

I think if/when this goes to adjudication the better prepared you are with facts/figures/documents the stronger your case will be.

I would'nt be worrying about the €10,000 claim for damages, it seems ludicrous.The explanation I can think of is he may be trying to frighten you into not bothering with the PRTB and just let him keep your entire deposit....it seems crasy me


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## samanthajane

Dont even boter with that solicitors letter. I've had dealings with the PRTB in regards to my landlord, slightly different situation, but the rule that they told me was that once you have submitted a complaint nothing more can go ahead untill the hearing has been done by them. 

I wouldn't ignore if a court date is set,but all you need to do is turn up and show him proof you have gone to the PRTB. But i doubt it will go that far, i think the landlord is just chancing his arm. 

For one by law he needs to provide you with a rent book which he hasnt done, and who in their right mind puts a €300 kettle and toaster into a rented house. I also had no list of items when i moved into this my house just a figure of 15k!! They provided a cooker, washing machine, table and chairs and beds...now i know we live in rip off Ireland but thats some expensive furniture. 

The 5k for painting of 2 walls is totally crazy, you can argue even without your son writing on them after you living there for 19 months he would of needed to re-paint the house anyway. Thats just general wear and tear and landlords have to deal with. 

It will take around 5-6 months for your case to be heard, there is a long list. The PRTB seems to be pretty fair from the reports that i've read. You should go onto their website and have a look for yourself, you could come across a few cases that are similar to your own and see how they ruled. 

I would be totally amazed if he got any of what he is claiming, digging up receipts or credit card statements wouldn't be a bad idea but remember he would need to provide these as well that he purchased them for this house. 

Like the previos person has said i think the landlord is hoping that with the thought you you owing him 8k you might just forget about the remaining deposit and withdraw your complaint that you made with them.


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## Bronte

You mention it was a high spec house. If the children did damage than you are responsible. You mention 700 etc for leather chairs, is that the landlord's figure or yours? 300 for a kettle and toaster might be normal in a high spec house with leather chairs. 

Previous poster is incorrect to think that scribbling on walls would be normal wear and tear.  Two young kids can do a lot of damage (I know as mine have done so) so maybe the landlord does need to have the whole house repainted.  5K, seems very high but high spec was mentioned.

Most rented property nowadays is furnished but sometimes tenant's bring their own kettles etc. I know of no landlord who supplies duvets. Very unusual.

What have you told the PRTB ? What is your claim with them?

I would not ignore the solicitors's letter, I would contact the PRTB and ask them what to do? I would certainly reply to the solicitors's letter outlining that you have taken a claim to the PRTB (do not say on what grounds) and asking the solicitor to wait until the PRTB makes a decision.

It is not fully clear to me whether a landlord can or can not take a tenant to court but my understanding is that it has to go through the PRTB first.


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## jack2009

OP calls it a "High Spec" but seems to be indicating that it was nothing special.


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## MrMan

Check that he is registered with the PRTB and also keep onto threshold no matter how busy they are. 5k for painting isn't acceptable for that size of a house and it looks like he is going in high to compromise to a lower (still high) figure. Prtb is there to watch out for tenants so use them.


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## sam h

I'd agree with the PRTB (by the way, I'm a landlord and some of the above posters are also)

 - it doesn't matter if he is not registered with the PRTB, you can still register a dispute with them
 - if he had no inventory of property, I can't see how he can prove he had such items in the place
 - dig out all reciepts you have 
 - you are right that pen on chair & wall not normal wear and tear - but you are not liable to repaint the whole house.
 - never hear of a LL supplying duvets - sound like an amateur LL who bought a new house & left what suited them in their old one & now can't remember what was there
 - reply to the solicitor stating you are proceeding via the PRTB and all further contact should be through them


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## samanthajane

Bronte said:


> Previous poster is incorrect to think that scribbling on walls would be normal wear and tear. Two young kids can do a lot of damage (I know as mine have done so) so maybe the landlord does need to have the whole house repainted. 5K, seems very high but high spec was mentioned.


 
bronte I wasn't suggesting scribbling on walls is wear and tear, I was referring to the whole of the house. Most landlords would repaint a house after a 19 month lease, and not charge the pevious tennents for it. Even if the scribbles wern't there the landlord would still of had to re-paint those walls anyway. It's something to point out when 5k for painting has been mentioned, thats a huge bulk of the 10k the landlord is trying to get from her. 

And i'll still never accept that no matter how high spec you put in a toaster and kettle worth 300 euro. Not when there was dirty bedding and dishes left in the house.


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## mercman

Bronte said:


> You mention it was a high spec house. If the children did damage than you are responsible. You mention 700 etc for leather chairs, is that the landlord's figure or yours? 300 for a kettle and toaster might be normal in a high spec house with leather chairs.




High Spec House ! Says who ?? Not at €2100 rent per month, not that much high spec. €300 for a kettle and toaster ?? Are you crazy ? The landlord knew that the property was to be let and should have furnished it accordingly  - not with high spec utensils.

As for the redocoration the property was let as a family home as in this regard the damage you have mentioned would go down as normal wear and tear.

Landlords know the potential problems of renting. And if they don't they had better wake up. I'd write back to noting receipt of his solicitor's correspondence but advising that as the matter is in the process of determination by the PRTB you are unable to pass further comment. And BTW as a note you might advise them that due to the lack of the mandatory rent book you are able to provide dates as to when the payment was made. 

That will keep them quiet.


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## Bronte

Hold on guys, it was the OP who said it was high spec, normal landlords like myself spend our lives painting everything magnolia and I don't charge tenants for this.  I even supply paint to any tenant during tenancies if they want to spruce the place up.  If the landlord can prove that there is damage and it costs 5K to put it back the way it was, which is entirely possible in a high spec house, well a judge will have to decide on that.  I was in a courtroom many years ago where a landlady had let a house to students who had done great damage and she claimed an obscence amount for good carpets which the judge queried her on (why would you have good carpets in a house let to students), she was very upset but was adamant as to the cost of the carpets and the judge found in her favour (This is pre PRTB and they had done a lot of damage).

Any landlord putting in leather chairs is madness but that's what we have here, in that regard a 300 kettle and toaster might be reasonable (in this case these were not supplied).  I also find it extremely odd that a person would accept bed linen from someone else.  The velux blind thing stinks of a landlord lying.  Like another poster said the property sounded like a place the owner had resided in and left not knowing what was in the house, but not the Velux blind? 

In relation to the DVD thing, in a box would be no good to me as a landlord, it might not be compatible with the house system and I'd need someone to install it which is another cost. (Of course normal landlords dont have these things either.

I agree with MrMan that the landlord is throwing in a bill of 10K to get say 5K.

Despite the fact that most landlords routinely repaint, if children scribble on walls the landlord is entitled to have it back to the state it was let in minus normal wear and tear.  Scribbling is not normal wear and tear.  The OP could have repainted the walls herself, that's what I would have done.  

Actually this whole story is crazy, we have both an amateur tenant and amateur landlord chancing his arm it seems.  OP I'm not trying to be harsh on you but you should have called the landlord over before you left to see everything was in order, I certainly would have if there was damage to chairs and DVD systems.  It is strange that you mention a walk through of the property, did you not look at the house before you leased it? If you expected certain items in the house you should have checked before you signed a lease.  In your case there is no inventory so I don't see how a landlord is able to bill you for them.  What exactly does your lease say in relation to fully furnished?

Do you have pictures of the way you left the house? Did the landlord take pictures after you left to show the damage you did?


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## Complainer

Bronte said:


> In relation to the DVD thing, in a box would be no good to me as a landlord, it might not be compatible with the house system and I'd need someone to install it which is another cost.


This is nonsense. You don't need someone to 'install' a DVD thing. Just plug and play!


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## Bronte

Complainer said:


> This is nonsense. You don't need someone to 'install' a DVD thing. Just plug and play, for crisssakes.


 
Well I had a man out to connect up my DVD player to the TV!  In this case they mentioned some house sound system so I guess it has to be connected to that somehow.


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## Hans

I cant believe this - is he living in the real world - unless you are bending the truth and I dont doubt you for a min. all you describe is normal wear and tear. As a landlord of both low and so called 'high spec' property I have seen it all I have to replace beds, a blood stained settee (I didn't ask any questions), and kitchen products after lettings I consider this normal wear and tear especially if tennants have lived there over a few years. I honestly believe some people aren't cut out to be landlords do they honestly expect others to respect their property as if it was there own.  Dont get me wrong it would be great if they did but unfortunately that is usually not what happens.  I dont consider I'm a push over I have made good money in letting down through the years (too many to mention) but as I said in earlier post I have very few bad experiences as I have always kept in touch with tennants and I hope looked after them and they in turn returned the favour.  As said earlier I would ignore all threatening letters and just deal with PRTB.  I really hope you get ALL your deposit back and I think it's criminal if you have to pay anything  on top of deposit - if it was me I think I'd go to jail first!! Sorry for being so passionate but I think this type of behavour gives other landlors a bad name.


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## Knuttell

I would not consider a blood stained settee wear and tear.who were you renting to Jeffery Dahmer?


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## Hans

My point is as a landlord 'you have to bend the 'Terminology' from time to time or you would drive yourself mad as I said earlier I'm not owed anything from tennants so I'm not greedy!!


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## canicemcavoy

Bronte said:


> 300 for a kettle and toaster might be normal...


 
...in one of those houses on "Cribs". Seriously, the most expensive toaster + kettle on Argoes doesn't come up to €300 combined.

As for the DVD player - you plug it out, you plug the new one in. All the connections are at the back, and they're standard no matter what the make.


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## dtlyn

Bronte said:


> Well I had a man out to connect up my DVD player to the TV! In this case they mentioned some house sound system so I guess it has to be connected to that somehow.


 
Yeah, the landlord could contract out the younger of the OPs two kids to do this at a rate decided by the OP......such is the chancery going on here. 



> In relation to the DVD thing, in a box would be no good to me as a landlord


 
Are you seriously saying you'd pull up a tennant on this? Our landlord left a morphy richards toaster and kettly fully boxed and new in our apt when we moved in. Plugging it in was a bit of a struggle, I'd have to say, because of partially obstructed plugs, not to mention inconvienent disposal of the packaging. Do I have a case?

This is the kind of logic that puts tennants unnecessarily on the defensive.


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## newbieineire

Thanks everyone for your replies - it is a relief in a way to see that we are not wrong in thinking this is crazy. 

Oh yes, and  for the record - we are amateur tenants and have no intention of going pro.  We moved from the UK 2 years ago (husband was transferred here) and we have a hefty mortgage over there- we were unable to sell the house, this is why we are renting. First time we did it. 

The house we currently are in was let to us by a family who gave us a complete walk through of the property, showed us how everything worked, and gave us an extremely detailed inventory of everything that is in the house and oh yes, a rentbook.   We signed it and both parties have copies. Our previous landlord never showed any interest in meeting us ... he had to be chased up for weeks before he did anything about things.

Re: the kettle and toaster - they could be €25 or €2000 for all we know, but the point here is that we don't think we have to pay for something that plain and simple -was not in the house- when we were there. Same goes for the alleged velux blinds ... if the windows did not even have fittings for them, how on earth can he be charging that? We challenged everything that he had on the list and sent a copy of it to the PRTB. And of course have stated that we there is no inventory or rent book.  

Re the duvets - when we were shown the house we were told that what we saw is what we would get... of course the fancy top bedding was removed and they only  the smelly duvets were left ... bugger.  Seriously, as first-time tenants we did not know what to expect in many ways. 
And well, the house is considered "high standard" by the landlord .. it is in a very nice area (golf course) and it is indeed a very nice house, but we are getting the idea that the landlord wants to make some improvements and make us pick up the tab for it - regarding the repainting of the house and the fitting of velux blinds. We are also renting our house in the UK - we had tenants who moved out after 18 months of living there ...the agency who deals with the letting told us there would be a cost of painting and cleaning the property and we thought nothing of it and paid for it of course. 

Regarding the scribbling of the walls and chairs - that has been offered to be paid for and we let him know when we gave our notice. He quoted them at €759 for the set of five when only three were written on. Despite this, we agreed. We asked him on numerous ocassions to come over so we could talk about this but he just told us to leave the house and post the keys through the letterbox. 

I had a chat with my husband last night and the course of action that we will take is to reply to the solicitors telling them that we have placed a dispute with the PRTB and that they will be contacting their client in due course. 

I will keep you posted on how we get on ... it will make for very interesting (and amusing) reading!

Thanks so much


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## newbieineire

*edited* see following message - sorry guys! been using the internet for many years but am relatively new to using fora. Learning fast though


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## newbieineire

Hans said:


> Sorry for being so passionate but I think this type of behavour gives other landlors a bad name.


 

 Thank you for your message and for being an honest landlord. It is bad form though that sometimes tenants have not respected your property. We have done our best, but with young children this is difficult but we always offered to pay for the damage. But it's good to know that there are good landlords out there.


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## jhegarty

Did you claim you rent relief ?

With anyone that dogey there is a chance he isn't tax complaint either.


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## AlbacoreA

Once its with the PRTB it has to go through that process before any other. A solicitors letter is pointless until you've been to the PRTB. The landlord and solicitor should know this.  So I dunno the point of the letter other than a scare tactic.


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## Steve D

I am sorry to hear about your trouble. It sounds like your landlord is being totally unreasonable and trying to bully you into parting with cash for unjustifiable reasons. 

€5,000 for repainting the house is completely taking the p**s! €500 would probably be more appropriate and anyhow, it should be considered normal wear and tear.

Your landlord seems to have a very amateurish approach. If I was a landlord I would leave as little as possible a rented property. As far as I can see, the fewer items a landlord leaves in a property, the less hassle he will have in the future and fewer items will reduce the chances of disputes. 

I find it hard to understand the landlord’s logic in leaving the following items in the rented property:

a) Bed linen – who would want to sleep in used bed linen? Many tenants even like to buy their own beds, for hygiene reasons.
b) Kitchen utensils such as roasting tins – I would expect tenants to be able to supply their own and could understand them preferring to use their own for hygiene reasons. Small items like these kitchen equipment, cutlery etc can get lost/go missing and have to be replaced so it is in the landlord’s interest to ask the tenant to provide his own. 
c) Electrical items such as TV’s, DVD, toasters and kettles. It is usually best for a landlord not to leave items such as these because if they break down the tenant will expect the landlord to repair or replace them, causing extra hassle for the landlord. The only electrical items that I would consider to be essential would be a fridge/freezer, a washing machine and a cooker (perhaps gas). I would expect tenant to purchase other items themselves.
d) Expensive items should never be left in a rented property because if they go missing or if they are broken by the tenant they can give rise to a large dispute. This is especially true of small portable items. I cannot believe that someone would spend £300 for a kettle and a toaster and if he did, he would be mad to leave them in a rented property.


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## Bronte

OP you need to be very careful when you go to the PRTB.  The landlord is clearly trying to get as much as possible by quoting a high price.  He's also being clever by hiring a solicitor.

I find it hard to believe he will actually replace the leather chairs.  If they had been cut yes.  At the PRTB hearing you should ask for a copy of the invoice for the new chairs.  Ditto for the painting.  It is entirely possible he got it painted but he should have to prove there was damage.  He may have taken pictures (probably not if he's an amateur) If I was a landlord being taken to the PRTB I would expect to have to prove my case, your landlord seems to be an amateur so will not have all his ducks in a row.  The more you can prove how wrong he is the more likely the PRTB will not believe anything he says which is exactly what you need.

If he is not registed with the PRTB and also has no rent book he will automatically be in the PRTB bad books.

I would even go so far as to go to the house now and ask the current tenant could you see what chairs are there and take pictures, also see if it is repainted and take a picture of where there is no velux blind.  A picture of the current toaster and kettle (with brand, so you can figure out price) might also help.  I presmume you have invoices for the goods you purchased (or credit card statement) for that property, might be good to dig them up.

One poster has said it costs 500 to paint a house, even for cash I doubt one could get it done for that price.  I paid 1500 about 2 years ago when my long term tenants left.  5K is beyond me as well but maybe in Dublin in a top notch house that is what it costs.  If he has an invoice for that and you have admitted the kids wrote on the walls then I don't know how the PRTB will adjudicate.

Re the DVD/TV's etc, I never supply anything like that, yes irons, toasters, clothes racks and bins etc, from Argos or Roaches or somesuch.

It's no good everyone telling the OP she is in the right, she has admitted some damage, she needs to look at it from both sides if she is to win her case, which I think she will and rightly so.


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## Knuttell

Bronte said:


> Well I had a man out to connect up my DVD player to the TV!



Next time you need a man out to connect your DVD to your telly,give me a PM,reasonable enough rate,e200 call out,then e80 per 30 min (does not take more than 2hrs usually) 

Thereafter once installed there will be a once off fee of 33% of your Monthly SKY subscription(only for the first year)

However if any thing goes wrong with the installation of the cable my call out fee is reduced to e180 and then e120 per 30 min...all part of the service!

I knock 4% off this rate if you want to pay the 33% of SKY sub by DD,though I will need your Bank details,PIN,etc.


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## Horatio

This scenario sounds a little familiar to me. I reckon the LL believes that the occupiers are in Ireland on an expat package (housing,utilities, car, schooling, per diem & salary) sponsored by their employers & see this as a fast cash route, in the belief that the employers will blindly pay any bills sent forward rather than investigate, I've seen this attitude before with landlords & their Expat Clients, although not in Ireland.

stick to your guns OP, what's right is right & best of luck.


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## Caveat

OP, as well as sticking to your guns I would go out of my way to (legally) ruin this landlord.  Try to investigate anything dodgy they might be doing re tax etc and shop them.  Just do it anyway even if they back down. I would.


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## sadie

I would also speak to the Letting Agency. 
Does the Letting Agency not have a part to play in this? 
If the letting agency did not provide an Inventory, then get the Letting Agency to write you a letter saying the Landlord did not provide an inventory list, nor were you required to sign one.

My experience of Letting Agents is that there is often serious miscommunication between them and the landlords - eg. houses not cleaned between tenants but the landlord never knows or sees this.


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## txirimiri

Your landlord is a twit and he is on to a loser. I am just out the other end of a PRTB dispute (am a landlord) and he has already crucified himself by getting a solicitor to write you a threatening letter despite the fact that the case has been referred to the PRTB - illegal under the terms of the Residential Tenancies Act and his solicitor should know this. By the way, triple check that you have properly referred the dispute to the PRTB (you should have filled in the correct form and paid the fee and received a response from the PRTB verifying that they have accepted the dispute for resolution. If you haven't got this, get on to them straight away and keep pestering them til you get it is writing).

Do you have photos of the damage? This would be very helpful - if so, you should submit these to the PRTB along with evidence in writing that you admitted to damaging certain elements of the property and offered to pay for this. In general, the more documentary proof the better (letters, photos, receipt for the DVD) - anything that is a case of 'he said, she said, it cost x, no it cost y' isn't going to fly. Also, keep all communication reasonable, polite, factual; the more outrageous his behaviour (and demanding 10 grand in 7 days with no attempt to come to an agreement in a dispute re a deposit is laughably outrageous), the better for you, as long as you don't sink to the same tone.

The estimate given by the previous poster of 5 months is unlikely I think - in our case, from the tenants refering their dispute with us to the final settlement took 13 months and apparently it has since got slower. If your landlord intends to keep paying a solicitor to write you letters for the next year and to represent him at the hearing, he is going to be landed with an enormous bill. 

To sum up, I think the person with the problem is the landlord, not with you!


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## Kine

Caveat said:


> OP, as well as sticking to your guns I would go out of my way to (legally) ruin this landlord. Try to investigate anything dodgy they might be doing re tax etc and shop them. Just do it anyway even if they back down. I would.


 
+1

In any negotiation, it is essential you have all the information (and aces) at hand.


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## lff12

newbieineire said:


> Do we reply the solicitors telling them that a PRTB dispute has been set and they will contact his client in due course? Do we get a solicitor ourselves? I have been trying to contact threshold but they are always busy.   We pretty much do not what to do next. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.



If you have no house inventory he cannot bill you for items he has no evidence of the existence or condition of.  Reply to the solicitor and forward a copy of both letters to the PRTB - phone them up also and let them know what is going on.  He is probably just trying to gouge you.  Anybody can pay a solicitor to write a letter claiming you owe XXX.


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## lff12

Bronte said:


> One poster has said it costs 500 to paint a house, even for cash I doubt one could get it done for that price.  I paid 1500 about 2 years ago when my long term tenants left.  5K is beyond me as well but maybe in Dublin in a top notch house that is what it costs.  If he has an invoice for that and you have admitted the kids wrote on the walls then I don't know how the PRTB will adjudicate.



500 is probably a good cost for a small house.  My ex bought a 2 bed terrace in a country village and the mother and myself repainted it (it was totally destroyed by scumbag tenants from the previous owner) for about 400 at most.  Doesn't cost that much if you do it yourself.  We did ceilings and everything.  A large place done by professional painters would obviously cost a lot more.


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## AlbacoreA

You have to wonder what solicitor would send a letter. They should know it has to go to PRTB  first.


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## newbieineire

Horatio said:


> This scenario sounds a little familiar to me. I reckon the LL believes that the occupiers are in Ireland on an expat package (housing,utilities, car, schooling, per diem & salary) sponsored by their employers & see this as a fast cash route, in the belief that the employers will blindly pay any bills sent forward rather than investigate, I've seen this attitude before with landlords & their Expat Clients, although not in Ireland.
> 
> stick to your guns OP, what's right is right & best of luck.


 

Thanks a lot for your input, folks.  I was going to ask - when opening a dispute with the PRTB, will I receive any confirmation of receipt of documents, etc - or will they contact us once the dispute is opened, etc? I plan to phone on Monday morning anyway, but I am not sure whether they contact the parties with a case number or something. 

This is what he may be thinking. We are not in an ex-pat package at all, we pay for all our rent/living expenses ourselves, but he may be under the false impression that we will just blindly go and pay for it, or just submit a hefty invoice to a company that would just go and pay - as if companies were that generous nowadays.  

We vacated the house on the 1st of January, we cleaned the house ourselves and left it in a cleaner state than it was when we moved in, apart from the much-mentioned walls and chairs  we did plan to get it professionally cleaned but could not get anyone to do it on that day. He said that he knew people who could do it from the 3rd of Jan onwards, but if we decided to go for that, then we would have to pay ANOTHER FULL WEEK of rent so we could find a company to come and clean, and of course, pay for that ourselves. 

We sent a letter to his solicitors simply stating that we were not 
accepting the costs he is trying to charge and that a dispute had been sent to the PRTB. That was 2 weeks ago and we haven't heard from them since. Oh, and the letter said that if they had to take things further to collect the money (it did sound a bit like "we will pop round and break your legs") all the legal costs incurred etc would be added to the monies demanded. 

The house has been advertised to let for the last 2 months - no takers so far.  The photos on the ad are recent and there has not been any furniture replacement, so surely we couldn't have left them in such a bad state, could we?  Just the fact that the guy is losing out on €2100 every month right now makes us feel better.  

Will keep you posted ... thanks again for all your insight, it's been very helpful.


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## PaddyBloggit

Keep copies of everything .... save the website page that the let is on at the moment, save the pictures etc.


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## Seagull

Get a friend to have a look round the apartment, and see which of the improvements you are being billed for have actually been done. Have them ask about whether the place is due to be repainted, or if any of the furniture is due to be replaced.


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## lion_bar

Good plan, have them bring a camera & take photos.  I've often had perspective tenants take photos so that they can remind themselves of the place later.  First time it seemed odd but not anymore.

Whether the damage to the chairs is normal wear and tear who knows, but if it isn't then even though only 3 are damaged it's makes sense that a landlord would want a full new matching set.

I think you should have painted over/cleaned the marks and said nothing.  To be honest, i'd expect to repaint my place after a 19 mth let, my wife on the other hand, would hope to get away with not doing it her property.

With regards to duvets, i always put in new mattress covers, sheets, pillows, duvets etc, but get the letting agent to tell the tenants they are new.  Only reason I do this is that i think a room looks better with a made up bed with new, clean bed clothes.


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## gebbel

OP, expect up to 1 year before the PRTB will hear your case and another 2 or 3 months before they issue a judgement. I have dealt with them twice over the last few years and have found them incredibly inefficient. But good luck anyway.


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## newbieineire

*Re: Landlord is keeping deposit *and* billing us €10k- UPDATE*

Hi everyone, 

Here I am, with an update... 

I was getting very worried because I hadn't received any acknowledgement from the PRTB regarding the receipt of the dispute, documents, etc. Fortunately that came in on Monday. So at least I now know that they have it and we have a reference number. 

This morning, surprise, suprise, we got another letter from the landlord's solicitor, which reads: 

"Please note that in the event that we are not in the receipt of substantial and concrete proposals within seven days from the date hereof, then our client will have no option but to issue proceedings to recover the monies outstanding. Issuing the said proceedings may result in a judgement being obtained against you, and if necessary, published in the Stubbs Gazette. Any such judgement may well affect your credit rating. 

We would strongly urge you to contact ourselves to discuss settling the within matter, failing which we will have no option but to proceed, as set out above." 

We notice here that they have made no acknowledgement of the letter we sent to them on the 2nd of February whereby we said that things had been taken to the PRTB. 

We made him an offer - we offered him €1200 to cover the damage in chairs and walls which he ignored as we never received any acknowledgement of this offer. 

Should we write back to these solicitors and send them a copy of the acknowledgement letter we have received from the PRTB? I get the impression the guy wants to make a collection of the so-called €10k as if it were a commercial or personal debt - he is bypassing the PRTB completely. 

Thanks as always for your great insight, folks. It has been greatly appreciated in this matter that has become a dull headache - not as strong but still there. Argh.


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## AlbacoreA

Ring PRTB and ask them. Its in their hands now.


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## lion_bar

I'd ring the solicitor and give them the PRTB reference number too.  Tell them that getting the PRTB to deal with it is your concrete proposal.

Don't assume your landlord has told the solicitor about the PRTB proceedings you've initiated.


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## PaddyW

This guy is definitely having a laugh. You said the child scribbled on two walls. If the scribbles on the walls are only in one room, why does the entire house need repainting?? And €300 for a kettle and toaster.. Who is he kidding. I hope the outcome for you is good OP, this fella is being truly ridiculous.


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## AlbacoreA

lion_bar said:


> I'd ring the solicitor and give them the PRTB reference number too. Tell them that getting the PRTB to deal with it is your concrete proposal.
> 
> Don't assume your landlord has told the solicitor about the PRTB proceedings you've initiated.


 
Or a registered letter?


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## patftrears

*Re: Landlord is keeping deposit *and* billing us €10k- UPDATE*



newbieineire said:


> "Please note that in the event that we are not in the receipt of substantial and concrete proposals within seven days from the date hereof, then our client will have no option but to issue proceedings to recover the monies outstanding. Issuing the said proceedings may result in a judgement being obtained against you, and if necessary, published in the Stubbs Gazette. Any such judgement may well affect your credit rating.


This is just a bully tactic.
Only a company who is signed up to the credit rating buro (not sure of the correct name) can register a mark against your rating, ie banks, building societies, etc.

Stubss Gazette again another tactic.

PRTB has legal presidence in this matter, solicitor is wasting his time. I reckon solicitor is a friend/relative of the landlord and chancing his arm.


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## DonKing

I would agree that the solicitor is probably a friend or relative.

OP, You should send a registered letter to the solicitor confirming that the matter has been referred to the PRTB. I would also comment that you are also contacting the Law Society in relation to correspondance you have received from them (The landlords solicitor). Don't bother going into any detail in the letter to the solicitor. Just keep it brief.

The Law Society sorted an issue I had with a particular solicitor. The society normally expects you to make a complaint first with the solicitor and give him a chance to make amends, but I think they are reasonably flexible in their approach.


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## samanthajane

wow cant believe you got another letter from the solicitor. Make sure you keep all of these wont you. It doesn't matter if the solicitor is a family member or friend or even is your ex landlord is paying for it or not, he should still know the law, and there is nothing that can be done it's through the PRTB now. I still think he is chancing is arm that you wont want to go through the whole process and give up, which is why I'm surprised that he is not willing to bend at all with anything. He's not even willing to work with you on this at all. Goes to show how stupid he really is. 

Maybe i was a bit out with the time frame of 5-6 months I didn't actually go all the way with them, and when i was speaking to them that was the time they told me. Probably wishful thinking on their end. 

Great idea about getting a friend to go and view the place, take a few photo's, see if the landlord has actually painted the whole house, and replaced the chairs. See what kettle and toaster he has in the house now. Since he claimed the house was high spec you'd expected him to do the same again and put in a €300 kettle and toasted. Bet there's argos value in their now, or nothing at all. If there is nothing make sure to ask if they will be provided. Should be interesting to see the outcome of all of this.


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## tenchi-fan

i feel for you.

i moved in somewhere which was less than perfect but (3 years ago) I couldn't be fussy because it was hard to find a half-decent rented accommodation.

I made a list of everything wrong which i got the renting agent to sign, took photos which I burned to cd, and gave the place a good scrub.

6 months later I moved out. I cleaned the place thoroughly. 

When I moved out the estate agent said it was "disgusting" the way I left the place, with the arms of the sofa broker, 10 years worth of limescale on the shower door, etc etc. I called into them with the snag list which they had signed. They said "well, you left it a lot worse. you're lucky you had that list or *we'd get you for* a lot more than just the deposit." They accused me of taking the photos afterwards because "there is no way they would have rented out the place in that condition(!")

But they hadn't a leg to stand on. As a compromise I let Duffy's keep some of the deposit to cover a radiator which got damaged. When I was eventually buying my own place I avoided them like the plague.


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## newbieineire

Hi everyone  

So here we are - with another exciting installment of this drama. 

Since I last posted, we sent documents to the PRTB, etc ... and we have now received the landlord's side of the story, along with an appointment for an adjudication hearing in mid-august. 

The landlord has submitted invoices re:cleaning (€1,500) decorating (€5,000), I should probably point out he is in the building business, so I am sure he can get people to give him invoices or to "inflate" them to over the value. 

He still insists that there is one velux blind missing and has included a photo of the bare velux window. Sadly the sun hits on it and you can't see that THERE ARE NO FITTINGS for the window! 

He has submitted photos of probably previous tenancies - some of the photos are effectively from our time there, and we take responsibility for that (scribbling of chairs and walls, as I had described before) but he has included photos of the garden with lots of old grass, dead vermin (?) and photos of a destroyed oven encrusted with muck. As I said before, there is no point in lying and if we were effectively responsible for this we would stand up to the plate, but the man is LYING. 

We have discovered as well that suing people seems to be his modus operandi. He was in the news recently for a 7-year-old lawsuit and he is not budging ... God knows how many people he has had in the past. 

Can anyone provide some insight about the hearing? What to expect, etc? we will be sending comments to the PRTB re the photos ... we also saved some adverts from daft.ie where the house was being advertised to let and it had exactly the same furniture we did. 

I am getting all distressed again. I have tried to calm down and have thought that in the worst of cases and if we had to pay up the €7000 he wants, we could do it, not easily, but we could do it in installments or something, and that it's not the end of the world, but it really is not fair .. the house hasn't been rented yet and I am sure this is his way of making some nice extra income - just suing people for living in there. 

I feel sick.


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## DB74

Just because the landlord has got invoices for cleaning and redecorating doesn't necessarily mean that it is a result of excess normal wear-and-tear.

Also anyone can remove a blind and claim that a tenant took it with them.

At the end of the day the landlord will have to prove that you damaged the house to that extent and I personally don't see what invoices will do to prove that case.


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## Pope John 11

newbieineire said:


> Hi everyone
> I am getting all distressed again. I have tried to calm down and have thought that in the worst of cases and if we had to pay up the €7000 he wants, we could do it, not easily, but we could do it in installments or something, and that it's not the end of the world, but it really is not fair .. the house hasn't been rented yet and I am sure this is his way of making some nice extra income - just suing people for living in there.
> 
> I feel sick.


 
In the mean time you should go to the doctor if you feel sick & stressed out over this. If you win the case, sue him for the stress he has caused on you


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## McGann

any update on your situation newbie........


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## newbieineire

Afternoon everyone 

I indeed have an update now. The hearing was held this week, my husband attended alone. The landlord did not turn up, despite confirming that he would. The adjudicator rang him and he said some excuse about something coming up and not being able to attend, therefore the adjudicator said that the hearing would have to go on without him. 

It was pretty straightforward, according to my husband. He explained all the timeline since we looked at the house, etc.. showed the evidence we had and challenged the landlord's response, as in invoices for €2,000 for paint *only* and the photographs of the garden that show lawns and gardens all leafy,lush and green, considering we moved out on the 1st of January 2010 and everything was covered in snow. 

The adjudicator will submit her report in a few weeks time, so we won't know the resolution for a while, I suppose. I have read it could take months after a hearing before a decision is given, but we are prepared to wait. 

However, it's not as easy as that. Knowing this landlord, I am sure that he will resort back to his sending-letters-via solicitor's trick, and he will more than likely appeal if the PRTB decision does not fall in his favour. The advantage we have is that he didn't turn up... 

At least the hearing is over with, so that is a weight off our shoulders for now.


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## AlbacoreA

Thx for the update.


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## jhegarty

newbieineire said:


> the photographs of the garden that show lawns and gardens all leafy,lush and green, considering we moved out on the 1st of January 2010 and everything was covered in snow.



lol , nice one.


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## newbieineire

We'll, PRTB adjudicator's decision is here.  

No evidence or anything to back up the €10,000 allegations, so they are dismissed. 

Landlord is to pay us our €2,100 deposit within 7 days.  

---------------

Well, of course, actually getting it from him will be a miracle. But it is such a relief to see that this guy is getting what he deserves for trying to get a few thousand euro at our expense. 

Thanks so much for your advice and support guys. Not the end of the road yet - at least not until we see a cheque to our name  but at least we are more confident now.


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## alaskaonline

I was only a silent reader regarding your thread but have to say now: Well Done!!! I am very happy for  you and your family.

Enjoy the stress free time ahead of ye's.


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## Tomorrow

I too was only a silent reader but I am delighted for you.

What a terrific result!


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## Nige

great news, thanks for updating us.


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## DB74

That's great - well done


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## Murfnm

That landlord had some neck, he must be in politics.
Good news for you and yours, delighted for ye.


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## TreeTiger

Well done.  I hope you'll share your story with a few journalists/tv/radio people!


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## PaddyW

Excellent, absolutely delighted to hear that.


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## dahamsta

Well done OP. Don't let him away with the €2.1k now, hound him and the PTSB for it if he doesn't pay within 7 days.

The "dirty oven" thing seems like a common tactic, my scumbag landlord in Ladysbridge tried the same thing when I moved out.


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## Billo

Well done. That landlord had some neck.


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## newbieineire

Thanks a lot for your kind words everyone. 

Unfortunately, this isn't over yet, as I anticipated. Just got the appeal form from the PRTB this morning. Tribunal hearing hasn't been set yet. Landlord is appealing because he says that the adjudicator was biased  and that there are many discrepancies between facts and findings. We are more confident now, but I really wish this was over with. 

Will keep you posted ...


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## Speedwell

Best of luck, I really hope that this will all end for you soon. x


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## newbieineire

Hi folks, 

I was just thinking the other day that it's been a year since I came here and posted for advice. Thank you so much. The response I got really helped us.  

Sadly, we're not out of the woods yet. The tribunal was held at the beginning of December last year and we have not heard the decision made. My husband attended on his own and he was told that the adjudication hearing outcome had no relevance whatsoever and would not be taken into account at all. The landlord's absence to the adjudication hearing was not relevant either, so it was all "a blank slate". He was quite baffled to hear that. 

Landlord turned up, said all sorts of lies and exaggerations. My husband let him say his piece, then challenged everything, to which the landlord just resorted to shouting and saying "yer a liar" like a broken record. The tribunal commented that there was a lot of "conflicted evidence" and we're still waiting to hear from them. At this point we would just be at ease if he just kept the deposit and called it quits. There is no way we can pay the €7k he is demanding. 

Will keep you posted, hopefully with good news soon.


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## Bronte

That's very interesting.  So a landlord can not bother to show up to an adjudication hearing and that doesn't matter because he can appeal it.  Effectively one can have (so far) two goes with the PRTB.  More than a year has passed.  No decision, and no money either way.  

Could you tell us exactly what the landlord said and what your husband's defense was. Also what documentary proof was provided by either side.  

It does not look good if the tribunal said the evidence was 'conflicted.'   I guess that means they are going to have to decide who is telling the truth.  

Did the landlord have his solicitor there.  Wonder would that make the 'tribunal' very careful on how they decide the case.  

Thanks for keeping going with the updates.  I wouldn't get your hopes up on a decision even if in your favour, I've a feeling this landlord hasn't a notion of paying up and the PRTB so far as I can tell will then leave you with a decision that is worthless.


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## Lilia

God that's shocking.  I recently had tennants move out of a house and they had broken the oven door by accident which can't be replaced, left loads of rubbish in the garden, broken a latch on a window, a door handle off the door, the hose off the bath, taken down a blind which they never replaced and we had to paint the whole house costing the best part of a grand... I gave them back every penny of their deposit and thanked them for being good tennants which they had been in my opinion.  Normal wear and tear is expected and I think this Landlord needs to be kicked into reality !


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## newbieineire

Last update to the saga, folks. 

PRTB Determination Order received at the beginning of May. Landlord gets awarded €2,975 in alleged damages to the property. Of those, €1,200 are for a new sofa, of which he only presented a quote that said "furniture", never a receipt, €700 for brand new chairs, which we are ok with and we had offered to pay for in the first place, and the remainder is for painting and cleaning the property. 

So the landlord didn't bother turning up to the adjudication order, just appealed and things turned in his favour. I am absolutely disgusted with the PRTB that they can change their opinion to a complete opposite in a couple of months time. We could appeal to the High Court but legal expenses would be much more than the €875 we have to pay (he has the €2100 deposit). 

We have sent him a cheque, recorded post (he is capable of cashing it and saying we didn't send him anything) and we are requesting a receipt. I made copies of the letter and the cheque. 

We were very upset about it but I suppose it would have been worse if he had been awarded the €10k he wanted. I am surprised he didn't appeal - it seems he is in his element at court. He is facing €88,000 in legal expenses after suing someone he had a drunken row in a golf course 7 years ago. Lovely man. 

So that's that - you see, the PRTB will not always favour tenants. 

Thanks for all your input.


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## AlbacoreA

3k is a lot nearer the 1200 you offered originally than the 10k the LL was looking for. 

I've seen the PRTB being very vague about receipts before. I don't really understand that.


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## AlbacoreA

looking2011 said:


> i...
> Its sickening that you have to pay the landlord anything ...



Why?


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## cremeegg

ALL Velux windows leave the factory with attachments for blinds.

[broken link removed]


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## g1g

recently had my property rented and tenant moved out without notice leaving 60 bags of rubbish in the garage, urine soaked mattress and chairs, front door left ajar ... the list goes on. Can't belive you had to pay. We reported this to garda, social welfare, council etc and this person was given a brand new house to move in to while I was left to foot the bill to redo the house, replace the furniture etc. Not getting one cent from anyone!

I would expect general wear and tear from any house. You should not be charged for painting as this should be done when tenants move out after 2 years anyways.


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## Bronte

newbieineire said:


> PRTB Determination Order received at the beginning of May. Landlord gets awarded €2,975 in alleged damages to the property. Of those, €1,200 are for a new sofa, of which he only presented a quote that said "furniture", never a receipt, €700 for brand new chairs, which we are ok with and we had offered to pay for in the first place, and the remainder is for painting and cleaning the property.
> 
> .


  That's quite an amazing turn around in decision.  Thanks for posting back.  Did you query the quote for the sofa, you never mentioned that there was damage to the sofa in the first post, so I'm wondering where that came from, were you allowed to question that at the hearing.  Very surprised that the landlord doesn't have to show receipts.  How did he show the sofa was damaged.  What happened the 5K painting quotation as the painting and cleaning now amounts to about 1100, which would be a reasonable amount to paint a house.  Did the PRTB reject his figures or did he change his figures from the first hearing?

Sorry things didn't go your way.  You've been of immense help to landlords and tenants with this post.


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## AlbacoreA

I've seen the PRTB give costs for tenants goods in a similar way where a LL has cleared out an property either as an illegal eviction. Even where it seemed the property was abandoned. But LL or tenant I don't think either should be a valid claim without a receipt. and/or photos to back up damage.


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## polarbear

Have just read this fascinating account. I am so disgusted that the LL was awarded damages; not the amount he expected to get but nonetheless more than he deserved! How could that possibly happen?  It's obvious that he makes a living from fabricating lies and taking people to court. His type belongs in a Charles Dicken's novel. What a scoundrel.  I hope he gets is just desserts one of these days!


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