# Turkey and the EU, in or out?



## CGorman (4 Oct 2005)

*Turkey and the EU, let them in or keep them out?*

I'm surprised nobody has debated this here since its in the lime light at the moment. Obviously Turkeys possible membership can be viewed from a moral, social, geographical, and so on, point of view... but lets start with the basic economics. I will admit that I am very much in favour of allowing Turkey to enter over the course of the next fifteen years. What objections and problems do you see?


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## Alba Longa (4 Oct 2005)

What advantages do think Europe, not just Ireland would have?


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## CGorman (4 Oct 2005)

I think one of the most important advantages is the demographics - old Europe is getting... well... old! Whilst Turkey has a very young population. So entry to the EU would provide access to a large youthful workforce.


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## beattie (4 Oct 2005)

What about all the money that will have to ploughed in there just to bring the standard of living up to anything approaching eu norms.


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## z102 (4 Oct 2005)

Turkeys pensioners go into pension when they are 45/50 years old . So whats the "benefit " ? Illiterates and criples/poliomyelitis ( check the WHO datas ) are of no benefit to the EU economy .


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## GreatDane (4 Oct 2005)

beattie said:
			
		

> What about all the money that will have to ploughed in there just to bring the standard of living up to anything approaching eu norms.


 

What about all the funding we previously received, here in Ireland ? 

I say, bring them in ... if the EU can help them, if it will help us all get along while we spend time on this world, then it can only be a good thing imho 

Cheers

G>
http://www.rpoints.com/newbie


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## Alba Longa (5 Oct 2005)

I resent that the U.S. has interfered so much trying to force the EU to accept Turkey, especially putting massive pressure on Austria including private threats.  
What is the reason?
Could it have something to do with the numerous NATO bases in Turkey?
Could it be that they wish to muslimize Europe - and why would they want to do that?


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## CoffeeBrew (5 Oct 2005)

Haven't France and Austria each pledged a national referendum for their final approval?

Given the current public opinion polls in those countries that alone could be 'game over' for Turkey's entry.


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## Sherman (5 Oct 2005)

The answer to that one depends on how one views the EU - if one subscribes to the view that the EU is (or should be) solely an economic grouping, then there are compelling arguments as to why Turkey should be admitted to the EU - i.e. as cgorman said, young population etc. Of course on the other side is the dreadful lack of skills, literacy, etc.

If one subscribes to the view that the EU is/should be about more than economics (as we all know, it is about a whole lot more than just economics) then we need to ask ourselves what Europe is, and what we want it to be.

For instance, is Europe an entity with a primarily Christian philosophy? Is it aiming to be a 'superpower' to rival the US/China/India? etc, etc. If the EU is a grouping of 'Europeans', are Turks Europeans - culturally, linguistically, religion-wise, even geographically?

However, before examining all of the above, I feel Turkey should in no way be entertained in its efforts to discuss EU accession until it dramatically cleans up its human rights record. Only then should we start talking about possibly discussing EU accession.


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## CGorman (5 Oct 2005)

Alba Longa said:
			
		

> Could it be that they wish to muslimize Europe - and why would they want to do that?



Thats an interesting prespective - I would have put it in reverse, are they trying to Christianize Turkey! 

I think that if we were to say firmly no to turkey, it would cause huge unease towards the EU. For forty years the EU has said do this, do that, compley to this 1,000 pages of laws, and this 1,000 pages of regulations... and then we will begin to entertain your request. It will be 55 years since Turkeys first application to join before the earlist date it could actually join. 55 years, thats an awful long time to wait.

I think Turkey poses a far greater treat outside the EU than in it.



			
				Sherman said:
			
		

> if one subscribes to the view that the EU is (or should be) solely an economic grouping, then there are compelling arguments as to why Turkey should be admitted to the EU



You have brought up a massive question, what is, or what should the EU be? I personally am against the federalist style of the USA - I believe regional culture, politics and laws are essential to ensure both a great difersity of people in Europe and healthy competition between states for business. So I would subscribe to the view that the EU should be more of an  economic free trade zone between members who share similer ideas of democracy, peace and justice than a nation. I support a basic constitution outlinely the ideals of European society, but not a directly elected "head of state" or a significant military force (however i'm fine with groups of nations who wish to share intelligence and exploit syneries).


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## ClubMan (5 Oct 2005)

Alba Longa said:
			
		

> Could it be that they wish to muslimize Europe


While it obviously has a huge proportion of _Muslim _citizens, _Turkey _is much more strictly secular than many _Western European _countries (an obvious exception being _France_) ever since _Ataturk's _modernisation/secularisation drive in the 1920-30s. Several _Western European _countries, not least of all _Ireland, _could learn a thing or two from them on that front. For example, I can't imagine a public hospital in _Turkey _being prevented by vested religious interests from particpating in clinical trials of cancer drugs on the basis of "ethical" objections to the potential requirement to concurrently use contraception.


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## Purple (6 Oct 2005)

My problem with Turkish membership is that if they are in we, (the EU), will have a border with some pretty nasty countries. I am not convinced that Turkey has sufficient border controls in place to stop a substantial flow of economic migrants and those who might seek to do us harm from other countries. Turkey borders Georgia, Armenia, Iran, Iraq and Syria.
The role of the army is another problem; they are very popular amongst the urbanites as they are seen as the guarantors of secularism but they are seen by the EU as a barrier to full open democracy.
Turkey is a complicated and fragmented country with huge regional variations in culture and individual freedom. It is most definitely not ready to join the EU at the moment but may well be in 10 or 15 years, which is the time frame that is being talked about.
The biggest issue is not human rights or border controls, it’s is there enough commonality between the Turks and the rest of the EU in an increasingly political union for the marriage to work.


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## CGorman (6 Oct 2005)

Purple said:
			
		

> My problem with Turkish membership is that if they are in we, (the EU), will have a border with some pretty nasty countries. I am not convinced that Turkey has sufficient border controls in place to stop a substantial flow of economic migrants and those who might seek to do us harm from other countries. Turkey borders Georgia, Armenia, Iran, Iraq and Syria.



Thats a legitimate concern, ableit relatively small. I don't think it goes beyond the relm of conceivabilty that Turkey with EU backing could not implement solid border control over the next 15 years. (sorry if thats a bit of a mouthfull... for some reason I was itching to use the word conceivability!)


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## annR (7 Oct 2005)

A few months ago, I didn't like the idea of Turkey joining because I personally never saw Turkey as a European country and therefore couldn't understand why it would be in the EU.

However I read an article by Vincent Browne at the weekend pointing out all the various European organisations Turkey has been a member of for years now, and all the hoops they have jumped through.  Also, given the way the world has gone, inclusivity rather than division seems like a safer bet.

The human rights record would be a big concern.  If they clean that up, there probably isn't much remaining reasons against it.

However I'm sure there are lots of people like I was who never heard of Turkish involvement in Europe before and just don't see why it should be part of Europe!  I think the government and the EU should be doing more to educate people on the reasons for Turkey to join and the background to this whole process so that we understand, rather than resenting it.


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## ClubMan (7 Oct 2005)

Unfortunately the Government and _EU _attempts to educate existing citizens about the current state and workings of the union haven't been very successfull to date! Most people (including myself) have little understanding of how the whole operation works to be honest.


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## Guest127 (8 Oct 2005)

I wouldnt like to see Turkey excluded on the grounds of religion. However whether the current EU can absorb 70m people who might be under the impression that the EU is the answer to all their problems -financial and otherwise is a different matter. The border issue is a big one. there is no internal borders within the eu and this will have to be addressed big time. We have one of the biggest sea areas around our little country but our navy isnt exactly up to patrolling all the water under our juristiction. all in all though I would prefer them in than out. I also note the Austria want Croatia in as well, beginning to wonder where Europe ends. Croatia (+other old Yugoslavian countries ) and Turkey - no problem. Ukraine and other former 'Russian' countries??


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## Glenbhoy (10 Oct 2005)

As clubman pointed out, Turkey is and has been secular since Ataturk in the 20's.  One other point to remember is that the Ottoman empire which was essentially the Turkish empire held large tracts of Europe (the Balkans) for most of the last 500 yrs, therefore was Turkey not always partly European anyway?
From an economic perspective it does seem that we will require the people, from a political perspective - will we still be worried about terrorism from these sources, maybe, but maybe not, as we all know these thing tend to be cyclical.  From a moral perspective, I feel we should undoubtedly try and help these
"Illiterates and criples/poliomyelitis ( check the WHO datas ) are of no benefit to the EU economy ."
as described above, have the same opportunities that we all have had.


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