# should legal fees come from 'remaining cash'?



## jack2012 (6 Mar 2012)

Sorry if this is answered elsewhere, I couldn't find anything relevant when searching.

My Aunt died in early 2010 and left around 9,000 euro in cash as well as property worth 20,000 euro minimum.  The apartment was left to my sister and the remaining cash left to me.  The solicitor who made the will was appointed again to execute it but sent a bill last week for almost 5,000 euro for what seemed to have been a relatively simple process.  Secondly, the 5,000 was taken from my 9,000 cash, meaning that I was sent a check for 4,000 euro, while my sister did not have to pay anything towards these legal fees.

1. Is this the standard process, whereby 'remaining cash' means that the fee should be taken directly from the cash rather than from the beneficiaries?  If it is, that's absolutely fine.  It just doesn't seem 100% fair and a difficult topic to bring up obviously.

2. Was the fee excessive?

Many thanks for all responses!
Jack


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## Slim (6 Mar 2012)

jack2012 said:


> 1. Is this the standard process, whereby remaining 'remaining cash' means that the fee should be taken directly from the cash rather than from the beneficiaries? If it is, that's absolutely fine. It just doesn't seem 100% fair and a difficult topic to bring up obviously.
> 
> 2. Was the fee excessive?


 
No, it's the lazy way the solicitor took to settle the account. It would have been appropriate for you and your sister to agree the split of the bill before he did this.

Secondly, I think it was excessive, given the level of assets indicated in your post.


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## PaddyBloggit (6 Mar 2012)

'Remaining cash' ... you got it after all bills were paid (including the solicitor's bill) ..... sounds like the right way it should have been done but his bill does look excessive to me.


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## jack2012 (6 Mar 2012)

Thanks for the quick responses, Slim and Paddy!

Slim, you sound very confident.  Do you work in the legal profession or know somebody who does?  It was our own fault for not asking for a breakdown in advance but the solicitor is known to us so we (foolishly) trusted that they would charge a fair price.  

Paddy, that's why I think it's a vague one.  The solicitors' bills were for us to pay - not the person who died.  Rationally thinking, I believe that my sister and I should both pay OUR legal bills, rather than it being automatically deducted from the cash.  I guess I was naive too as I assumed that the solicitor would send an invoice rather than help himself to our proceeds.


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## Padraigb (6 Mar 2012)

Everything depends on how the will was worded. My guess is that the property was specifically bequested to your sister, and everything else (known as "the residue") to you.

The costs of executing a will are a charge on the estate, not on the beneficiaries individually. Specific bequests are normally not subject to the charge, and it is correct to deduct it from the residue.

It looks to me that €5000 is a high fee. Perhaps it was more than just a fee: were the funeral expenses also paid out of the estate?


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## Protocol (6 Mar 2012)

jack2012 said:


> Slim, you sound very confident. Do you work in the legal profession or know somebody who does? It was our own fault for not asking for a breakdown in advance but the solicitor is known to us so we (foolishly) trusted that they would charge a fair price.
> 
> Paddy, that's why I think it's a vague one. The solicitors' bills were for us to pay - not the person who died. Rationally thinking, I believe that my sister and I should both pay OUR legal bills, rather than it being automatically deducted from the cash. I guess I was naive too as I assumed that the solicitor would send an invoice rather than help himself to our proceeds.


 
I'm sorry to say this, but there's some things I've learned:

Never go with a sol just because "he's the family solicitor" "he's known to us"

ALWAYS get a quote / estimate in advance.

For a simple estate of a house and cash, in a perfect world, with electronic mgt systems, etc, the fee should be 500 max.


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## niceoneted (7 Mar 2012)

Did you get a break down of the expenses for the 5k fee. If not look for one now as soon as possible. Then if necessary query it or even get independent advice about the charges. If subsequently you feel there is an issue, state it to the solicitor in question and if you fail to get a favourable response, make a complaint to the law society.


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## Slim (7 Mar 2012)

jack2012 said:


> Thanks for the quick responses, Slim and Paddy!
> 
> Slim, you sound very confident. Do you work in the legal profession or know somebody who does? It was our own fault for not asking for a breakdown in advance but the solicitor is known to us so we (foolishly) trusted that they would charge a fair price.
> 
> Paddy, that's why I think it's a vague one. The solicitors' bills were for us to pay - not the person who died. Rationally thinking, I believe that my sister and I should both pay OUR legal bills, rather than it being automatically deducted from the cash. I guess I was naive too as I assumed that the solicitor would send an invoice rather than help himself to our proceeds.


 
No I don't but had some experience of a probate a few years ago. Didn't get estimate of sols costs, thought it awkward to ask and hoped for best. It was bit high. I questioned it and they reduced it a bit. In a subsequent probate, a house was sold and divided amongst family while one member of family also had a cash bequest from the testator. Legal fees were deducted from proceeds of sale and cash bequest was paid as left in the will. I don't agree with your comment about the repsonsibility of the legal bills. It falls on the estate. It is the divisdion of the bill at the end of the day that irks you and quite rightly. I think your sis owes you a few euro.


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## jack2012 (7 Mar 2012)

Thanks everyone.  I probably won't take the issue any further with my sister though as it's a difficult area.  She wasn't left any cash and the apartment won't be sold, so she wouldn't be able to afford the fees.  

I will check with the solicitor now though for a breakdown of costs as I also believe it's too high.  So strange that we find it awkward asking for this beforehand!  It never happens with any other profession.


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## mathepac (7 Mar 2012)

jack2012 said:


> ... So strange that we find it awkward asking for this beforehand!  It never happens with any other profession.


To be fair about it, if you find it awkward to ask about money you will have to pay, it's hardly an issue you can lay at the door of tour solicitor or the profession in general.


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Mar 2012)

Jack

You didn't have a choice over the solicitor. Your aunt appointed him as the executor. 

Protocol said


> For a simple estate of a house and cash, in a perfect world, with electronic mgt systems, etc, the fee should be 500 max.



This seems astonishingly low. Acting as executor is straightforward enough, but presumably title deeds have to be found and checked and conveyed properly to the beneficiary.  

I have no idea how much it should be, but it should be more than €500.

As a general rule, it's better to appoint a trusted relative or the main beneficiary as the executor. They can then choose a solicitor for the conveyancing and discuss the price beforehand. 

brendan


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## Vanilla (7 Mar 2012)

Slim said:


> No I don't but had some experience of a probate a few years ago.. .. It is the divisdion of the bill at the end of the day that irks you and quite rightly. I think your sis owes you a few euro.


 
You are wrong despite your experience of one probate some time in the nebulous past, surprisingly.


If the funeral, legal and testamentary expenses are not charged on one asset in the will, then they are taken first from property otherwise undisposed of- ie the residue. The order is set out in the Succession Act.

Presume the 'less than 5000' includes VAT, probate stamp duty and other outlay and we have no details of what work was entailed in the estate so difficult to say whether fee was excessive or not. I'd say certainly not hugely excessive if I'm correct that the 'less than 5000' is an all-in figure. However law society recommends it is good practice for residuary beneficiary to get estimate of costs and estate accounts so this should certainly be queried. Presume OP received a bill/invoice so the details of the outlays, VAT etc should be on that. OP could also ask for an itemised bill which will detail the work done.


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## Slim (7 Mar 2012)

Vanilla said:


> You are wrong despite your experience of one probate some time in the nebulous past, surprisingly.done.


....nice!!

By this I take you mean that the legal fees should be taken from the liquid assets despite the fact that there were two beneficiaries, one for the property and the other for the cash. Why should one beneficiary have to pay the legal cost from his inheritance solely? Btw, it's 3 probates in 15 years, 2 in the last 7. Not that that means I am right.


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## Vanilla (7 Mar 2012)

Slim said:


> ....nice!!
> 
> By this I take you mean that the legal fees should be taken from the liquid assets despite the fact that there were two beneficiaries, one for the property and the other for the cash. Why should one beneficiary have to pay the legal cost from his inheritance solely? Btw, it's 3 probates in 15 years, 2 in the last 7. Not that that means I am right.


 

No, you're not right despite your fantastic 'experience'. Read my post- the Succession Act sets out exactly where legal and testamentary expenses come from!


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## Slim (8 Mar 2012)

Vanilla said:


> No, you're not right despite your fantastic 'experience'. Read my post- the Succession Act sets out exactly where legal and testamentary expenses come from!


Based on the OP, the fees charged seem excessive. Splitting the bill then is a matter for the OP and his sister. Some consideration of this might have been appropriate on the solicitor's behalf, especially given the size of the fee.


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## Vanilla (8 Mar 2012)

Slim said:


> Splitting the bill then is a matter for the OP and his sister. Some consideration of this might have been appropriate on the solicitor's behalf, especially given the size of the fee.


 
Good grief, I give up.


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## Stronge (9 Mar 2012)

Your Aunt made her Will and left the Apartment to your  sister and after all her funeral expenses and Legal costs were paid you got what was left. When she was making her Will she would have gone through all of that with her Solicitor and that is obviously what she wanted. You could have been left nothing and your sister could have got the apartment and the money so be glad you got what you got!


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## Black Sheep (9 Mar 2012)

I never like a bill that has a nice round figure like 5,000 on it. It always arises doubts in my mind as to whether this was a properly calculated amount or a figure plucked out of thin air.
I like to see an itemized bill including VAT etc. and if that turns out to be a nice round figure that's fine


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## Mrs Vimes (9 Mar 2012)

Stronge said:


> Your Aunt made her Will and left the Apartment to your  sister and after all her funeral expenses and Legal costs were paid you got what was left. When she was making her Will she would have gone through all of that with her Solicitor and that is obviously what she wanted. You could have been left nothing and your sister could have got the apartment and the money so be glad you got what you got!




Exactly!


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Mar 2012)

Which I also said back at post number 3.

The only thing I would query is the solicitor's fee.

OP ... query the fee, ask for a breakdown and report back to the thread please.


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## T McGibney (9 Mar 2012)

Black Sheep said:


> I never like a bill that has a nice round figure like 5,000 on it. It always arises doubts in my mind as to whether this was a properly calculated amount or a figure plucked out of thin air.
> I like to see an itemized bill including VAT etc. and if that turns out to be a nice round figure that's fine



But what relevance has that to the above discussion? The OPs bill was not for a round sum.


> The solicitor who made the will was appointed again to execute it but sent a bill last week for almost 5,000 euro


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## Black Sheep (10 Mar 2012)

Apologies if I missed the word *almost*


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## jack2012 (11 Mar 2012)

I'm not sure I see the relevance of the 'be thankful you got anything posts'.  My questions were specific clarifications about the fee and how it is taken in an estate.  Thanks to those who confirm that it should be taken from the cash section of the estate.  

Brendan, I misused the word 'executor'.  My sister was the executor rather than the solicitor, so she could have chosen somebody else.

I have asked for a detailed breakdown of costs, so will see what the 4,834 euro covers.  It does not cover funeral costs as we paid for those separately.


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