# M50 Toll Bridge - "Processing Charge" €41.50?



## onq (24 Jul 2009)

Okay, okay, I should have paid the €3, I know. 

I usually do, but as luck with have it I was moithered with preparing two cases going to the the High Court in the past month so I.. forgot.

I was astonished at the scale of the "processing charge" - € 41.50!

I went over once, the missus twice, so that's nearly €150!

The notice states that this is due "in accordance with section 64(1) of the Road Acts 1993 t0 2007 and the Bye-Laws for the M50 (between junctions 6 & 7) dated July 2008 for each transaction."

I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of the relevant documents/acts/by-laws.
I googled before posting this and couldn't find a link - mebbee the syntax was wrong or something.

I was also wondering if anyone has had experience of this previously - normally I pay one time in the shop down the road, so I don't myself.

I also pass on this so the rest of you can be aware of the "processing charge", which, for a double-sided automated A4 letter seems outrageously expensive.

This should only cost 1-2 Euro, including the postage, max.

Very disgruntled about this.

Ombudsman next I s'pose.

ONQ.


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## dereko1969 (24 Jul 2009)

onq said:


> Ombudsman next I s'pose.


 
Why? Whether it's called an administration charge/penalty or whatever. You didn't pay the charge so the penalty applies.


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## sue m (24 Jul 2009)

i agree with the previous poster. There is numerous warnings on the M50 about paying the toll and there is also schemes in place to allow you "top-up " your account etc. The reason the charges are so high , is so people pay the fee on time etc. Sorry if i am a bit harsh but you did forget three times!


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## DB74 (24 Jul 2009)

If the penalty was only €1-2 then you would probably "forget" to pay that too!


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## onq (24 Jul 2009)

Points taken posters, but I still think its exorbitant and its not a "penalty".

Does anyone know where it arises in the legislation?

Can they set it arbitrarily to any figure?

ONQ


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## karlod (24 Jul 2009)

I had a problem with this at the start of the year. I missed a payment then paid after i went through again, everything got confusing. End of it all i had to pay 30 or 40 quid including penalties (cant tremember exactly). Bit of as shock in january!!
Anyways, i rang eflow and explained everything. The girl went through it all and it wasnt looking great. She then suggested that i sign up for one of the payment methods. She said that if i sign up she can probably waive the fees/penalties
Now i use the toll maybe 10 times a year so i didnt want the pre pay thing were they top it up when it hits 12 euro.
She offered a monthly post payment option whereby i set up a direct debit and every time i go through it costs 2.50. Every month i get a bill and they take the money. No worries any more. 
So i guess ring them and discuss options. Also they might show were the legislation your looking for is.


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## z104 (24 Jul 2009)

dereko1969 said:


> Why? Whether it's called an administration charge/penalty or whatever. You didn't pay the charge so the penalty applies.


 

Just pay the toll now, I cannot see anything in the bye law about how soon/quickly you have to pay it after crossing..

As long as you pay the toll there should be no reason to pay a penalty. Just because they want you to pay within 24 hours does not mean they should be allowed to issue penalties.


It's actually a joke having to pay anything for this road anyway. It's been a building site for the past 15 years


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## huskerdu (24 Jul 2009)

onq said:


> Points taken posters, but I still think its exorbitant and its not a "penalty".


 
Its no different to the scale of penalties for not paying a bus or Luas fare. 

Its supposed to  be high enough to encourage you to avoid it.

Are you seriously suggesting that the penalty for not paying should be 2 euro.  Not much of a penalty.


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## markpb (24 Jul 2009)

Niallers said:


> It's been a building site for the past 15 years



??


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## JoeB (24 Jul 2009)

Don't forget that when you forgot to pay they sent you a letter.. with an additional 3 Euro penalty.. you have two weeks to pay this. It also states clearly that if you don't pay then they will issue you with an additional 40 Euro penalty per trip..

So if you wanted to avoid the 40 Euro penalty you had several chances to pay.. you choose not to pay and now you have been hit with the additional 40 Euro per journey.

The good news is that you can ignore this one too.. you have 56 days to pay.. if you don't pay you will eventually receive another additional charge of 100 Euro per trip... I don't know how long you have to pay the final 100 Euro but if you don't pay it then you will end up in court..

In court you can try to get the judge to throw the case out...


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## onq (24 Jul 2009)

huskerdu said:


> Its no different to the scale of penalties for not paying a bus or Luas fare.
> 
> Its supposed to  be high enough to encourage you to avoid it.
> Are you seriously suggesting that the penalty for not paying should be 2 euro.  Not much of a penalty.



It eems its not a "penalty" its a "processing charge" and thats my point.
They are the ones who call it a processing charge, not me.
The penalty actually is €3, believe it or not.



You pay an additional €3 penalty and then the processing charge of €41.50.
Sorry I didn't make this clear before now.

ONQ.


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## samanthajane (24 Jul 2009)

karlod said:


> I had a problem with this at the start of the year. I missed a payment then paid after i went through again, everything got confusing. End of it all i had to pay 30 or 40 quid including penalties (cant tremember exactly). Bit of as shock in january!!
> Anyways, i rang eflow and explained everything. The girl went through it all and it wasnt looking great. She then suggested that i sign up for one of the payment methods. She said that if i sign up she can probably waive the fees/penalties
> Now i use the toll maybe 10 times a year so i didnt want the pre pay thing were they top it up when it hits 12 euro.
> She offered a monthly post payment option whereby i set up a direct debit and every time i go through it costs 2.50. Every month i get a bill and they take the money. No worries any more.
> So i guess ring them and discuss options. Also they might show were the legislation your looking for is.


 
I'll 2nd this. 

My mum had my car for a few months while i was away, and thought it was now free to go through the toll bridge! I suggested she needs to go to specsavers. The fines i had were near 300 euro. But i signed up to the monthly direct debit and all the fee's were waived. I dont use the toll bridge very much, but at least this way i never have to worry about paying the fee or charges that will get added if i do forget.


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## z104 (24 Jul 2009)

markpb said:


> ??


 
The M5O has been a building site for the past 15 years


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## kceire (24 Jul 2009)

why didnt you pay it when you got the letter asking for 6euro?

even when you forget to pay the 3e, you then get a letter about a week later requesting the payment. so you ignored this too.

i think you have no options but to pay it, although if you do decide to contest it, i wish you the best of luck, be nice to rattle their cages


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## onq (24 Jul 2009)

I paid.

Now I'm questioning the basis of the processing charge.

ONQ.


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## z109 (24 Jul 2009)

I agree with you onq. 

If they call it a penalty, then fair enough if they have a basis for levying a penalty.

But if they are calling it an administration charge, then it must be proportionate to the cost of the administration they are providing. That much, I believe, is european law - witness the cases in the UK for penalty charges for sending overdraft letters and the like. They are based on an EU consumer protection directive. Now, I don't know if it only applies to financial institutions, but I seem to recall that it doesn't. An unexpected charge should be based on actual cost.


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## onq (25 Jul 2009)

yoganmahew, thanks for that background info.

Should I now address this to the ombudsman?

Is this under the Ombudsman's purview?

If not the Ombudsman, then have you any other suggestions?

All suggestions welcome.

ONQ.


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## z109 (25 Jul 2009)

No idea what to do in Ireland! In the UK it would probably go to the ombudsman, so that's probably a good place to start.


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## boaber (25 Jul 2009)

Niallers said:


> I cannot see anything in the bye law about how soon/quickly you have to pay it after crossing.



Bye Law defines Cut-off time as '_in respect of any use of the Toll Road, 20:00 on the day following such use'._


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## Black Sheep (26 Jul 2009)

And don't forget that in order to go to the ombudsman "you must have been *unsucessful* in sorting it out with the relevant body"


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## bond-007 (26 Jul 2009)

You should have made them take you to court. 

The M50 signage is woefully inadequate. It does not advise of any penalties.


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## JoeB (26 Jul 2009)

Why should it?.. It does advise that it's a toll road and gives details on how to pay and how to obtain more info. The letters give details of the additional 40 Euro penalty.

What more could be done?.. don't forget that people are driving by the signs quite quickly so they can hardly give details of the penalty structures and the time periods.


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## bond-007 (26 Jul 2009)

All the signs need say is failure to pay will result in penalties.

The whole house of cards will fall on that point.


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## dereko1969 (26 Jul 2009)

by that logic we should have signs under every speed limit detailing the penalty points that apply and the fines also - illogical


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## nippyyoke (27 Jul 2009)

has anyone been in court over it i have recieved a summons


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## JoeB (27 Jul 2009)

Bond-007 may have a point... while I think it can be inferred that not paying a toll fee will result in penalties, under the law it may be necessary to inform people of that with an explicit notice...

I wouldn't be prepared to  not pay and then say I felt there shouldn't be any penalties for not paying as there's no notice... but I'm sure someone may be.. 

Sometimes you do see it noted that failure to pay (something) will result in fees or penalties...


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## Latrade (27 Jul 2009)

Same here in that I forgot to pay for a return trip (had done the original, but neglected to put in for the return). However, I received a letter soon after stating this and although it had an additional "processing fee" this was only €3, it did state it would go up to the €40 if I didn't pay within certain date.


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## onq (27 Jul 2009)

JoeBallantin said:


> The letters give details of the additional 40 Euro penalty.... don't forget that people are driving by the signs quite quickly so they can hardly give details of the penalty structures and the time periods.ty.



Joe, its a "processing charge", by their own admission, NOT a penalty.

The penalty is the additional €3 you pay on top of the original €3.

ONQ


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## Bubbly Scot (27 Jul 2009)

Sort of highjacking the thread but can anyone answer this?

I went through the toll about four, maybe five weeks ago. Completly forgot to pay online by following evening so I figured I would wait for the letter as the website was a bit ambigious. I haven't had a letter yet, do I call and try and pay what I owe or just wait it out?


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## bond-007 (27 Jul 2009)

Wait. Let them make the next move.


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## Kine (31 Dec 2009)

Interesting, was late paying myself (missus filed away the bill on me so I forgot about it....argh ) 

Rang up eflow and said I didn't particulalry feel like paying €95 for a two-way journey. Lady was helpful, waived it (they apparently waive the big fine once) and took the €12 fee/fine I actually owed. 

Set up my direct debit going forward, no more €6 per journey for me!!


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## Mrs Liamo (1 Jan 2010)

I had the same problem.
We had changed cars, the otherhaf went through the toll thinking the car had been changed on the toll ( we have the video post paid account- which i highy reccomend)

I went online, paid the fine, swaped the car over (or so i thought) and forgot about it.
2 weeks later got a letter in the post saying we owed €95.
2 strongly worded emails later they had it sorted.

I would suggest if you have any issues to contact them, i found them very helpful!


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## tvcabinet (2 Jan 2010)

I also have a problem witht his €41.50 processing charge and don't believe for one second that it is fair.


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## peteb (2 Jan 2010)

Havent we been through this above numerous times? You would have had a number of opportunities to resolve the matter! So you didnt and now have to pay the "processing charge".


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## bond-007 (2 Jan 2010)

Penalties under contract are not legal. If a competant solicitor defended against them they would loose.


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## peteb (2 Jan 2010)

It's not a penalty its a "processing charge" ****does giant air quotes with his fingers****!!!!!


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## bond-007 (2 Jan 2010)

It is still a penalty no matter how they dress it up.


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## tvcabinet (3 Jan 2010)

peteb said:


> Havent we been through this above numerous times? You would have had a number of opportunities to resolve the matter! So you didnt and now have to pay the "processing charge".


 
Is there anybody out there who can post how they arrived at the figure of €41.50 for a procesing charge? I mean really all they are doing is putting a letter into an envelope and posting it, how can that possibly cost €41.50.


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## eamonb (14 Jan 2010)

ok so a private company BOUGHT the road off the N.R.A an now we have to pay whatever they decide and because its a private company run for profit they have no problems with you missing a payment in fact they rub there hands every day "THE National Roads Authority (NRA) is making €50,000 a day from motorists who don't pay the M50 toll on time" quote taken from http://www.independent.ie/national-...0000-on-m50-toll-fines-every-day-1937659.html
check it out for yourself and then google "no contract return to sender"
for a possible solution to this problem


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## Bronte (15 Jan 2010)

The M50 toll is another example of how things should not be done. Who dreams up systems like that?

I was on the M50 in a rented car in December. At the rental desk we were given a card with a phone number etc and told to pay the toll within I think 24 hours. Next day I phoned up and spoke to a computer, after much todo got through to a person to pay the charge. There was some other option of going to a forecourt to pay. This all took about 20 minutes on an international phone. At the rental desk we asked could we pay the toll to them. Apparently in the past one could but not currently.

At one stage on the M50 we saw a sign about a toll, normally you'd be looking for how much, don't remember seeing anthing about money and then you'd be looking out for the toll booth itself, I still don't know where we passed it. On the way back also saw one, maybe two signs and again not sure where we passed the toll booth. I have not paid the toll on the way back as now I'm abroad I don't have the bit of paper I received two weeks prior to this etc. (Yes I know I can look up the web etc)

Do they think that foreignors understand what a forecourt is and how difficult it is for a non English mother tongue person to deal on them phone with them
Do they think people know they are on a road with a toll booth that is invisible or how many times one is passing this elusive place.
Why don't they have one booth where you can pay on the spot?
Is there anywhere else in the world with such a mad system?

What will happen to us, will we receive a letter from the rental company.
The toll people knew it was a rental car from the registration number.
Will we have to pay 6 Euro?


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## bond-007 (15 Jan 2010)

The rental company may have an account with eflow and they get charged that way. The rental company will then of course pass on the charge plus an admin fee.


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## Bonzo (16 Jan 2010)

Has anyone ever heard of a person been taken to court for non payment of TOIL charges?
Don't take this as gosbel but maybe is it not because under consummer law that a consummer has to be given an option and on the M50 you are not given an option to turn off to avoid paying the charges or there is no sign stating that if you continue you will be charged I'm not a solicitor but I've had several conversations about it and honestly I have never heard of anyone been taken to court for unpaid fines.
I would love to hear other peoples opinions on this I could be wrong so don't not pay the fine based on my coments please.


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## Complainer (16 Jan 2010)

Bonzo said:


> Don't take this as gosbel but maybe is it not because under consummer law that a consummer has to be given an option and on the M50 you are not given an option to turn off to avoid paying the charges or there is no sign stating that if you continue you will be charged I'm not a solicitor but I've had several conversations about it and honestly I have never heard of anyone been taken to court for unpaid fines.


There are warnings on all the approaches to the bridge telling you that there is a toll ahead after the next junction. When heading northbound on the M50, there are signs saying 'toll after N4 junction' giving you option of turning off at that junction.



tvcabinet said:


> Is there anybody out there who can post how they arrived at the figure of €41.50 for a procesing charge? I mean really all they are doing is putting a letter into an envelope and posting it, how can that possibly cost €41.50.


Since when did charges for services (or goods) relate to cost of that service or good? The charges you pay for most goods and services have no relation to the cost.


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## eamonb (16 Jan 2010)

because its a rental car as far as i know youll recieve a bill from the rental company for the charges that they incure (for you using the privately operated road that was SOLD by the N.R.A)plus some administration charges on top of that


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## markpb (16 Jan 2010)

eamonb said:


> (for you using the privately operated road that was SOLD by the N.R.A)



Where are you getting this? The NRA hired a private company to collect tolls for crossing a bridge on the M50. All the tolls collected go back to the NRA and the tolling company are paid a fee for their work. Nothing has been sold (unless you're talking about the original PPP contract with NTR which is no longer valid).


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## Bonzo (17 Jan 2010)

Thanks for that markpb


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## eamonb (18 Jan 2010)

my mistake sorry  let me fix that with an extract for the irish independent:-
When the motorway was bought from National Toll Roads (NTR) for €600m last year, toll revenue of €80m per year was forecast.But this amount will exceed expectations for the first full year of operation due to late payment fines and penalties.
you can press the link for the full article
http://www.independent.ie/national-...0000-on-m50-toll-fines-every-day-1937659.html
The national roads authority is a company press the link 

And dont Companies operate for profit???
They charge 41.50 processing charge this alone should make it obvious that they are operating for profit


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## markpb (19 Jan 2010)

eamonb said:


> The national roads authority is a company press the link
> 
> And dont Companies operate for profit???
> They charge 41.50 processing charge this alone should make it obvious that they are operating for profit



The NRA is a semi-state company, meaning the government is the primary (and in this case only) shareholder. Any profits it makes are either ploughed back into the company (to pay for the upkeep of national primary roads) or given back to the exchequer (to pay for the upkeep of the country). It's the same type of company as ESB, Bord Gais, Enterprise Ireland and CIE.

A company makes a profit if it's outgoings exceed it's income. How can you say that the NRAs outgoing exceed it's income based on a charge of €41.50 to remind you to pay your toll? In reality, this is a fine but only courts can issue fines so the NRA call it a processing charge to avoid legal problems.


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## eamonb (20 Jan 2010)

i thought semi-state bodies were non profit?
also doesnt our road tax pay for the upkeep of roads
 -Motor tax is a charge imposed by the Government on some motor vehicles. The revenue from this tax is used to maintain and upgrade the road network in Ireland-http://www.citizensinformation.ie
i can  say that the NRAs outgoing exceed it's income based on -
But another €12m has been collected in penalties and fines -- or 16pc of all revenue. 
When the motorway was bought from National Toll Roads (NTR) for €600m last year, toll revenue of €80m per year was forecast. 
But this amount will exceed expectations for the first full year of operation due to late payment fines and penalties. 
read the article on the previous link 
you are also implying that the nra is using deceit to impose fines by calling them processing charges in law deceit is fraud and fraud would void a contract with them.what legal problems would they be trying to avoid???


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## markpb (20 Jan 2010)

eamonb said:


> i thought semi-state bodies were non profit?



Nope. They can (and sometimes do) return a profit to their shareholder (the minister responsible). If my memory is correct, ESB, Bord Gais and An Post have all paid dividends to the exchequer. I'm not saying that's a good thing (perhaps they should have lowered their prices to result in a break-even situation) but it's the way things are done.



> i can say that the NRAs outgoing exceed it's income based on -
> "But another €12m has been collected in penalties and fines -- or 16pc of all revenue."



That says nothing at all, other than they are making substantial amounts of money in penalties. It doesn't say anything about their profit on the M50 or their profit as a whole.



> you are also implying that the nra is using deceit to impose fines by calling them processing charges in law deceit is fraud and fraud would void a contract with them.what legal problems would they be trying to avoid???



You have no legal contract with them - their ability to toll the road is set down in legislation, just like all the other toll roads in the country. As a semi-state and not a member of a judiciary, they are not allowed issue fines so instead they use "processing charges" to encourage people to pay on time. This is used by many companies, both semi-state and private. Dublin Bus have a standard charge of €45 which is discounted to €1.10/€1.60 if you pay cash to the driver. If an inspector sees that you failed to pay the driver, he asks you to pay the standard charge. It looks like a fine, acts like a fine (and quacks like a fine) but because DB aren't a court, it's not a fine.


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## eamonb (21 Jan 2010)

MINISTER FOR Social and Family Affairs Mary Hanafin has described as “outrageous” the salaries paid to chief executives of some semi-State bodies.
Ms Hanafin said “it is outrageous for the head of a body, such as Coillte or the ESB, to receive a salary of €400,000 or more”.
ye cant justify something thats wrong just because were used to it
as for the money side of things kompass.ie will sell a copy of their records such as
Executives ,Key figures (turnover, ...) ,Activity description ,Products & services.but it costs about 120 euro so that will have to wait.
if theres no contract then they cant charge you money which is the consideration as in everything else like buying something in a shop its a contract u buy something they recieve something(money).
Legislation or acts require consent of the governed ,so you have to agree to let them charge you x amount if you do not consent then you do not contract with them.search for "john harris" on you tube he explains it better then i ever will.


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