# Where shall an architect stop?



## housecat (22 Mar 2010)

Hi ! we are planning to extend and re-furbish our house (Adding possibly 45sqm). In the attempt to "do it once and do it right" we started to ask quotes for the assistance of an architect throughout the process, and we got scared (pricey they seems...). I see value from an architect when it comes to designing spaces, show you models, go through options, etc... a creative I'd say. But I'd rely more on a recommended builder, for carrying-on the work from there on. 

All well, but what I get proposed by architects is that they draw plans and submit the planning application (4K EUR + VAT and expenses btw) then if you want to auction the work to a builder they do detailed drawings and complete a selection process (4.3K EUR + VAT). Then if you need the work certified, that comes for other 3.5K + VAT (includes inspection at specific stages and certificate). All seems quite expensive for about 45sqm extension... (The consultancy of a structural engineer will be on top of all of that)

What I wonder is whether I can I just give all to a good builder before the architect tries to take all over, and spare some cash.

So, my questions:

1) how feasible is to give all in the hands of a builder without detailed drawings?

2) Do I need a building cert'? Who else can I ask it from?

Thx!!! D


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## onq (23 Mar 2010)

Look housecat, its great you're considering an archtiect and fair dues to you for doing so, but you're balking at €12 grand in fees for a full service?

Never fails to amaze me that some people can think nothing of paying that for a second hand Golf or a mid range kitchen but don't want to pay it for a competent professional to design and certify something they'll have use of for the rest of their time in the house?

Your call, but remember - if the builder causes one of the many problems you read about here on AAM, who do you turn to?
Its a competitive market out there - seek alternative prices from three architects, but DO use a building professional.

Don't become your builders "friend" because you think that's the way to ensure good service because you haven't got a professional on board.
He is there to do a job for you - you need someone to keep an eye on him and his work - he is not your "friend".

DO get a cost estimate prepared against which to review your tender prices.
Too low may seem like a good deal, but you'll find they may disappear without finishing.

DO make the builder sign up to a contract, with a good spec and drawings if its WITHOUT QUANTITIES.
As long as you're not doing anything too fancy, get the builder to take all sub-contractors and suppliers "domestic" to him.
This avoids the hassle of "nominated" sub-contractors.
This is important in a contract situation where delays by you or your agent may affect the liquidated and ascertained damages clause adversely unless and extension of time if granted.

Related to this is the fact that you should have all decisions made before the builder starts on site and stick to them.
Your indecisiveness causing delays also affects the liquidated and ascertained damages clause.

What is the liquidated and ascertained damages clause?
Its what the builder pays you per week should he cause delays.
If you or your people cause delays, and fail to extend the contract period, the clause may be void.
If that happens time ceases to be "of the essence" and becomes "at large" and the builder only has to finish in "a reasonable time" without any overrun payments to you.
These can be significant if you have to rent somewhere else pending completion, for example.

Your architect can advise you on all these items.
There's more to building than bricks and mortar.



HTH

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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## michaelblues (14 Apr 2010)

*Architects fees*

The fees of €12k for a €40-50k project are excessive
You should in today's climate get a fee of approx 10-12% for the entire service.
What area are you in
Maybe I know someone who can help 

Michaelblueshoes


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## onq (15 Apr 2010)

I posted "Its a competitive market out there - seek alternative prices from three  architects, but DO use a building professional."
So please take note that I am not defending the €12k cost of fees in this instance per se.
I know at least one firm that would be delighted to offer a full service  for half that.

But smaller projects do take up more time on a pro-rate basis.

Square footage and costs may come down.
Professionals input comes down too.
But not by as much pro-rata.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## Ceist Beag (15 Apr 2010)

We got two quotes for a similar size job from two architects, both came in at 4.5K for full service thru to certifying the work so 12K seems way too expensive. Best thing is to shop around. BTW both architects who quoted for us were RIAI approved. In terms of value for money we're convinced it will be money well spent.


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## onq (15 Apr 2010)

<nods>

I'm sure you did Ceist Beag, just as I'm sure that if those are people with mortagages and business premises and families, they may be lucky to survive until the end of the job living in this country.

ONQ.


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## Ceist Beag (15 Apr 2010)

I dunno ONQ, both seemed fairly capable lads who know how to run a business so I think they're able to decide what to charge without putting their own jobs at risk by undercharging. The lad we went with in the end in particular seems to be doing very well for himself so not sure you would be right in thinking he is charging too little.


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## onq (15 Apr 2010)

Well, I'm happy to stand corrected on that Ceist Beag.

Its a matter of throughput of jobs -vs- the time taken to do the work and deal with the client.

Its good to hear you found a competitive service you're happy with - that's very much the name of the game - but its a very "tight" fee.



ONQ.


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## anthony 1 (15 Apr 2010)

well drawings can be drawn up by a draughtsman ( cheaper than an architect) an engineer can do one site visit prior to construction to issue recommendations re ( steel rsj,load bearing walls etc) and will issue a cert once the job has been completed once his spec has been used and proof of same..this would lower your costs significantly. then once you get drawings get these priced up by various builders.. get builders who have done similar size jobs and can show you previous work and therefore references. its only 45 sqm so its not a massive size to go to all those lengths..once the work is done to a high standard and an eningeer certs it then your in the clear.. obviously costs need to be kept down so i would go down this route.. if you need more info contact me.. i have several useful contacts re this issue


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## Mommah (15 Apr 2010)

I suggest you compare houses extended by an architect to perhaps builders own homes or engineers own homes. I think the outcome will speak for themselves.

Remember there are many many "architects" who are not qualified to be members of the RIAI and therefore no better than said builders or engineers.


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## Shawady (16 Apr 2010)

Ceist Beag said:


> We got two quotes for a similar size job from two architects, both came in at 4.5K for full service thru to certifying the work so 12K seems way too expensive. Best thing is to shop around. BTW both architects who quoted for us were RIAI approved. In terms of value for money we're convinced it will be money well spent.


 
Ceist Beag, same here.
We are just about to start a similar size job to the OP and our architect fees are 4.2K for a full service. So far it looks like money well spent. Engineer is 1.5K on top of that.
Both seem to be reasonably busy and reckon there is plenty of work out there but are of the opinion that some of the guys with large overheads can't compete with the smaller operators. Our architect says is happy if he gets a salary out of it.


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## onq (16 Apr 2010)

+1 what Mommah has said and in relation to the below comment from anthony 1, I also note:



anthony 1 said:


> well drawings can be drawn up by a draughtsman ( cheaper than an architect) an engineer can do one site visit prior to construction to issue recommendations re ( steel rsj,load bearing walls etc) and will issue a cert once the job has been completed once his spec has been used and proof of same..this would lower your costs significantly. then once you get drawings get these priced up by various builders.. get builders who have done similar size jobs and can show you previous work and therefore references. its only 45 sqm so its not a massive size to go to all those lengths..once the work is done to a high standard and an eningeer certs it then your in the clear.. obviously costs need to be kept down so i would go down this route.. if you need more info contact me.. i have several useful contacts re this issue



The only, small, niggling, wee thing is - engineers are qualified to comment on structure and drainage, not on design or other compliance issues.
Their certs will definitely be accepted by a bank, so no worries there, but don't expect to talk about light, amenity, spatial progression, improving visual amenity, or any green or environmental issues.
Timber selection, requesting samples of finishes from the contractor, samples of interior finishes, fixtures or fittings from the sub-contractor/supplier, colours, fabrics, furnitures - you're more than likely on your own.

This is not to suggest an engineer is inured to the finer points of design, just that they are not trained to address them in a way that benefits the client or improves the work.
If you want to deal with the builder on such matters - go right ahead - you'll probably find you'll get more of the same.

Many engineers ARE competent to talk about environmental issues.
This is at the scale of an industrial development, or a small town, or in relation to septic tanks.
Its horses for courses and Shawady seems to have the balace struck about right and will be able to offer a good set of certs if he ever sells on.

It is good to see a levelling of the market to a fee standard that many find supports their needs and attracts work.
Cash is king, and if this means we're down to paying utility bills and tents in the back garden for a while, that's fine by me.
If you're lucky enough to get to stay in your own back garden, as opposed to having to sell your house, you're ahead of the posse.

ONQ.


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