# Will my church marriage certificate suffice?



## Kimmagegirl (24 Oct 2016)

My pension provider is asking me to provide a copy of my marriage certificate and birth cert in respect of my pension.

Can I use the church certificate given to me over 40 years ago or do I need to get an official one from somewhere?

Can I use the "short" version of my birth certificate or do I have to have the "long" cert version?

I am based in Dublin. Can both of these items be purchased online and are they both available from Lombard Street if I call in?


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## gipimann (24 Oct 2016)

You can apply for certificates online

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/1/bdm/Certificates/


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## Kimmagegirl (24 Oct 2016)

Thanks, I will have a look at that. I could save myself €20 if they accepted my church certificate that I have an original of. The information would have been provided by my local parish priest in any case.


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## Steven Barrett (24 Oct 2016)

Your passport or driving licence will do for confirmation of date of birth. Your marriage certificate is only required if purchasing an annuity with a spouse's pension for your husband. If so, you will need a proper marriage cert. 


Steven 
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## moneybox (24 Oct 2016)

gipimann said:


> You can apply for certificates online
> 
> http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/1/bdm/Certificates/



I applied on line couple years ago  but found out afterwards if I had gone directly to births deaths and marriage office I would have got it for a tenner. I dont know if that's still the case.
Just checked online there for the cost of obtaining a birth certificate online..€40,


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## Ann1 (24 Oct 2016)

https://www.welfare.ie/en/pdf/Marriage_Civil_Partnership_Form-English-GRO.pdf

Found this link online.....You might want to check with Roscommon office to verify that this service is current.
If it is... why don't you give your pension provider a ring and ask if they will accept any of the other copies listed
on this link.


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## Kimmagegirl (25 Oct 2016)

SBarrett said:


> Your passport or driving licence will do for confirmation of date of birth



That makes sense. It would save me the €40 quoted above. I have a short cert in my name but my spouse will have to get a new cert if Mercer insist on it. 

Does anyone know if there is still a "short" birth cert and a "long" birth cert anymore or are they all in the "long" format.

Just wondering why Mercer are asking foe a birth cert if a copy of a passport or driving licence will suffice?


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## moneybox (25 Oct 2016)

Kimmagegirl said:


> Does anyone know if there is still a "short" birth cert and a "long" birth cert anymore or are they all in the "long" format.



Have a read through this link.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/passport-renewal-long-or-short-birth-cert.163767/


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## Kimmagegirl (25 Oct 2016)

Thanks moneybox. The long cert had additional information on it. Parents details etc.

Maybe the new style A4 cert also has this information on it. Maybe someone who got one recently might clarify this?

At the end of the day, in my case, it is about my pension provider verifying my date of birth plus my spouses's date of birth for pension payment purposes.  

As Steven mentioned above a passport or driving licence should suffice as they are official documents.


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## Bronte (25 Oct 2016)

Do you get two certificates when you get married in a church in Ireland?  One legal and one religious?


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## moneybox (26 Oct 2016)

Kimmagegirl said:


> Thanks moneybox. The long cert had additional information on it. Parents details etc.
> 
> Maybe the new style A4 cert also has this information on it. Maybe someone who got one recently might clarify this?
> 
> ...


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## Black Sheep (26 Oct 2016)

*B*ronte. 
Double trouble! Yes 2 Certs. One Civil Cert +One Church Cert.


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## Slim (27 Oct 2016)

moneybox said:


> I applied on line couple years ago  but found out afterwards if I had gone directly to births deaths and marriage office I would have got it for a tenner. I dont know if that's still the case.
> Just checked online there for the cost of obtaining a birth certificate online..€40,


It should be €20 direct from GRO. Don't pay agents to get this for you!
https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/GRO_Fees.aspx


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## Kimmagegirl (28 Oct 2016)

SBarrett said:


> Your passport or driving licence will do for confirmation of date of birth. Your marriage certificate is only required if purchasing an annuity with a spouse's pension for your husband. If so, you will need a proper marriage cert.



Steven. Mercer are insisting that an original Birth Cert is required as per attached.

"To answer your question, it is a requirement for a member to send us an original birth certificate if they are applying to take their pension benefit. This is an Irish regulatory requirement in order to prove the member’s name and Date of birth. Unfortunately an alternative form of identification such as a passport will not suffice.

If you have any other questions we are here to help you. You can also contact Irish customer service at Justask@mercer.com"


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## Steven Barrett (28 Oct 2016)

That is an absolute nonsense. Getting a passport needs to be signed off by a Garda! 
Life companies do not require birth certs, they will accept passport/ driving licences. Do Mercer know something that the rest of us don't? 

Are you part of a group pension scheme with them? Is there an option to deal with the life company instead of Mercer? Or transferring it to a buy out bond and then maturing it through a life company? 


Steven 
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Kimmagegirl (30 Oct 2016)

I contacted the Pension Ombudsman's office about this. I thought that I would get a definitive answer on this from them by return. The response that I got was "We will contact you regarding this issue in due course".


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## Kimmagegirl (1 Nov 2016)

Update.  This is the response from the Pension Ombudsman's Office.

"Unfortunately we cannot answer your question as we are a complaint body. We do not have responsibility for regulatory matters.
I would imagine if it is regulatory then it’s most likely a Revenue matter and they may be able to provide some clarity.
Failing that, the Pensions Authority are responsible for regulating pension schemes and may be able to provide more information."


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## SlurrySlump (2 Nov 2016)

Gosh. It would have been such a simple matter to say Yes or No to your query.


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## Laramie (4 Nov 2016)

I am in a similar situation.  When I joined my company pension scheme I had to provide copies of my birth certificate and marriage certificate to my pension provider. Now that my pension is coming due I have been asked to supply these again?

Are they too lazy to look for the original ones that I supplied or have they lost them.?

Of course there was no Data Protection around in the early 1980's.


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## Laramie (4 Nov 2016)

Just to add. My pension provider was Irish Pensions Trust. This is now a division of Mercer. So the same company who got them 30 years ago now wants them again. Now I know why I have to wait for a month to get a half answer to any query I send them and why the staff dealing with me changes from reply to reply....


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## amtc (5 Nov 2016)

I have a db pension with mercer which I carried through three public sector employers since 1994. I recently asked for a statement, as I was doing my will, and got the most oddly worded e-mail to say they were under no obligation to give me same. I wrote back to say at retirement age how would they know how to contact anyone! As I have changed address.No reply


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## Laramie (22 Nov 2016)

amtc said:


> I have a db pension with mercer which I carried through three public sector employers since 1994. I recently asked for a statement, as I was doing my will, and got the most oddly worded e-mail to say they were under no obligation to give me same. I wrote back to say at retirement age how would they know how to contact anyone! As I have changed address.No reply


I contacted the JustAsk team at Mercer after receiving a printout from them of my coming pension. I had a few simple questions to ask. That was last August. I have now dealt with 4 different people and the latest person that I sent an email to has also "dumped" me. I now have bits of questions answered, bits of questions ignored, complete questions ignored. Despite them saying at the end of the form that they sent me that if I had any questions I was just to ask. 
I think that they are hoping that people will just go away.


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## Kimmagegirl (22 Nov 2016)

In my post 14 above I wrote that Mercer were insisting that it was an Irish Regulatory requirement to provide a birth certificate rather than a passport.  I said that I was going to query this with the Pension Ombudsman which I did. Now it appears that the Tin God who gave me the above information was wrong and decided to check out the information after insisting that they were right.
This is their latest post on the matter.
"I have contacted our compliance colleagues who have confirmed that the requirement for a birth certificate is in fact a Mercer risk and compliance requirement rather than a regulatory requirement. Our requirement is designed to meet the Trustees obligations. There is a degree of flexibility and if you would like to contact us directly at marketing.ireland@mercer.com, we can work with you to resolve this issue."


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## moneybox (22 Nov 2016)

Fair play to you for your perseverance on the matter.


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## amtc (22 Nov 2016)

I ended up sticking in a data protection request. My point was the tone of the email.... That they had no obligation to inform me...pension is from 1994!


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## BOXtheFOX (24 Nov 2016)

I think that if you check back through your pension correspondence you will find that you have already provided birth certificates and marriage certificates (if married) when you joined your pension scheme. It would have been a requirement. Why Mercer are again looking for these is beyond me when they already have them on file in their archives.

Maybe they need to look?

I wonder would the Data Protection Commissioner have anything to say about this?

[broken link removed]


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## Steven Barrett (24 Nov 2016)

Kimmagegirl said:


> In my post 14 above I wrote that Mercer were insisting that it was an Irish Regulatory requirement to provide a birth certificate rather than a passport.  I said that I was going to query this with the Pension Ombudsman which I did. Now it appears that the Tin God who gave me the above information was wrong and decided to check out the information after insisting that they were right.
> This is their latest post on the matter.
> "I have contacted our compliance colleagues who have confirmed that the requirement for a birth certificate is in fact a Mercer risk and compliance requirement rather than a regulatory requirement. Our requirement is designed to meet the Trustees obligations. There is a degree of flexibility and if you would like to contact us directly at marketing.ireland@mercer.com, we can work with you to resolve this issue."



Well done. So what they are saying is it in not an anti-money laundering requirement but a trustee requirement. And that requirement is you have to prove your age. And they weren't accepting a passport as proof of age!!! Nuts. 


Steven 
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Kimmagegirl (24 Nov 2016)

Hi Steven. Thanks for all your replies on the various forums. To think that someone might have believed this individual from Mercer giving out incorrect information. It was your post that made me persevere. 

My partner also has an upcoming pension also managed by Mercer and he is going through the same dreadful service that I have had to put up with.

We now have a "Mercer Day" where we deal with them or try to as the case may be. Awful really.


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## Steven Barrett (24 Nov 2016)

Mercer seem interested in the large companies that pay them big fees to run their group pensions. Contact your (ex)employer and tell them that the service from Mercer is appalling and they have no interest in dealing with the members of these schemes as you don't pay Mercer's fees. You therefore want everything to go through your employer as Mercer will deal with the fee payer. The HR dept will also have a direct line to the scheme administrator instead of you phoning up and speaking to a different person every time. You can also remind the scheme trustees that one of their trustee responsibilities is the payment of benefits. This includes where it is outsourced to an administrator ie Mercer. If the payment of benefits is not done in a timely manner, the trustees are in breach of their duty and can be reported to the pensions authority. 

Get the employer to fight the battle for you, Mercer will listen to the people who pay the fees. 

Steven 
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## JoeRoberts (24 Nov 2016)

SBarrett said:


> Mercer seem interested in the large companies that pay them big fees to run their group pensions. Contact your (ex)employer and tell them that the service from Mercer is appalling and they have no interest in dealing with the members of these schemes as you don't pay Mercer's fees. You therefore want everything to go through your employer as Mercer will deal with the fee payer. The HR dept will also have a direct line to the scheme administrator instead of you phoning up and speaking to a different person every time. You can also remind the scheme trustees that one of their trustee responsibilities is the payment of benefits. This includes where it is outsourced to an administrator ie Mercer. If the payment of benefits is not done in a timely manner, the trustees are in breach of their duty and can be reported to the pensions authority.
> 
> Get the employer to fight the battle for you, Mercer will listen to the people who pay the fees.
> 
> ...



Think you are jumping the gun here Steven.
It's entirely reasonable to request a birth/marriage certificate before paying benefits. It is up to the trustees to decide what evidence they require. I don't understand why people are being so difficult about providing a basic document that every person in the country should have in their possession. Plenty of forged passports around and easier to forge that original birth certs. What if the scheme pays out to someone who is not actually of the correct age ? Who will the members look to for compensation then ?
Any delay in payment is being caused by the member not complying with the requirements of the scheme/trustees in terms of documentation, not the trustees.


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## Steven Barrett (24 Nov 2016)

JoeRoberts said:


> Think you are jumping the gun here Steven.
> It's entirely reasonable to request a birth/marriage certificate before paying benefits. It is up to the trustees to decide what evidence they require. I don't understand why people are being so difficult about providing a basic document that every person in the country should have in their possession. Plenty of forged passports around and easier to forge that original birth certs. What if the scheme pays out to someone who is not actually of the correct age ? Who will the members look to for compensation then ?
> Any delay in payment is being caused by the member not complying with the requirements of the scheme/trustees in terms of documentation, not the trustees.



What you quoted me on is my response re Mercer's service to scheme members. At present, they seem to be ignoring the members completely. They have a dedicated team to deal with members queries and are completely failing in what they are supposed to do.

I don't agree with your argument re forged passports. We're talking group pensions here. The retiree is a member of staff and has probably been one for a long time up to that. We're not talking opening bank accounts to launder money (and if we were, a passport is perfectly acceptable as proof of date of birth  ).


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## JoeRoberts (24 Nov 2016)

SBarrett said:


> What you quoted me on is my response re Mercer's service to scheme members. At present, they seem to be ignoring the members completely. They have a dedicated team to deal with members queries and are completely failing in what they are supposed to do.
> 
> I don't agree with your argument re forged passports. We're talking group pensions here. The retiree is a member of staff and has probably been one for a long time up to that. We're not talking opening bank accounts to launder money (and if we were, a passport is perfectly acceptable as proof of date of birth  ).
> 
> ...



I take your point on Mercer, they are difficult to deal with but in fairness they have a lot of very old schemes and hundreds of thousands of members.
The documentation from employers to scheme admins over the years also leaves a lot to be desired.

I'm a trustee of a number of group schemes and would certainly not pay out based on a passport or church marriage certificate. The responsibility rests with the trustee to take all reasonable steps to satisfy themselves as to the accuracy of data, they should not rely solely on the employer's data. That is a trustee doing the job correctly, however inconvenient it may be for the member.
I've seen far too many errors in employer data re pensions.


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## Steven Barrett (24 Nov 2016)

That's nuts Joe. Governments around the world accept passports as a legitimate form of identification but Irish pension trustees don't? 

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Kimmagegirl (25 Nov 2016)

Joe. They were given this documentation when I joined the scheme. O.K. I suppose I could have been divorced and remarried but my date of birth is still the same. If I produce my passport and the date matches with the date they have on file why do they insist on me reconfirming this by producing a new birth certificate.


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## JoeRoberts (25 Nov 2016)

Kimmagegirl said:


> Joe. They were given this documentation when I joined the scheme. O.K. I suppose I could have been divorced and remarried but my date of birth is still the same. If I produce my passport and the date matches with the date they have on file why do they insist on me reconfirming this by producing a new birth certificate.



You may have given them to your your employer when you joined, I've never seen pension schemes requesting or collecting them at joining. Most people join the pension scheme a good period after they start employment, after completing probation/temp contract or reaching a certain minimum age.
What's your objection to getting a new copy of your bc ? As I said, everyone should have one in their possession. It is a basic document for life.


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## Bronte (25 Nov 2016)

JoeRoberts said:


> I'm a trustee of a number of group schemes and would certainly not pay out based on a passport or church marriage certificate. The responsibility rests with the trustee to take all reasonable steps to satisfy themselves as to the accuracy of data, they should not rely solely on the employer's data. That is a trustee doing the job correctly, however inconvenient it may be for the member.
> I've seen far too many errors in employer data re pensions.



What is your basis for declining a passport as proof of your date of birth?


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## JoeRoberts (25 Nov 2016)

Bronte said:


> What is your basis for declining a passport as proof of your date of birth?



We don't have a policy to say we decline passports. We have a policy to say we require b cert. I see no need to change it.
No one has ever had any problem producing it.


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## Kimmagegirl (14 Dec 2016)

A Birth Certificate would contain more information than is required to confirm a person's date of birth. It also has information on a person's parents, some occupations etc.


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## Kimmagegirl (4 Jan 2017)

Update. When I joined my work pension scheme I was using my married name.

Asking me for a birth certificate in my maiden name would have been a waste of time. Different names.

I would then have needed to provide a marriage certificate to confirm change from maiden name to married name.

I have produced my passport in place of the above and it has been accepted.


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