# Standard of Driving on Irish Roads



## annet (1 Aug 2009)

Has the standard of driving on Irish Roads really improved?  The number of fatalities might have reduced - but has the number of accidents - how many accidents dont go through the insurance and are not reported in the calculation of official stats? 

I see it everyday - people who continue to use mobiles while driving, drive in excess of the speed limits, fail to obey basic lane discipline on roundabouts (some dont even know which lane they are suppose to be in), fail to stop and head on straight through a red light, blocking junctions, simple things like indicating to show their intention to maneouvre seems to be beyond some drivers basic level of capability, wreckless proceeding from minor to major roads and failing to give way to oncoming traffic.  In one incident - while stopped at a traffic lights - there was little child of no more than four jumping around the back seat of a car driven by a woman - the kid was obviously not secured in a child seat - if in an accident that child would have been straight through the windscreen with multiple injuries.  

I wonder the extent to which penalty points are effective when you see PSV and HGV holders exceeding speed limits on the M1, M50 and on primary, secondary roads and motorways everyday?  I am not saying these are the only roadusers who break the law - but in pressing the point about enforcement - it seems that if these peoples livelihood is wholly dependent on possessing a driving license - which it is - logic would also say that when they speed - they are not really afraid of being caught or getting 12 penalty points, disqualification from driving, loss of occupation and income.  Hence, the question about enforcement - from both Garda Siochana and the Road Traffic Corp. Cameras strategically placed would be a nice little earner for our cash strapped exchequer.


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## RMCF (1 Aug 2009)

I agree that the standard is not great, but I think it is getting worse everywhere from what I see.

I learned to drive in NI, and we always thought that RoI drivers were awful. In fact many were hopeless when they came into NI, but now when I am back in the North I see examples of bad driving all the time.

People using mobiles is rife. And they don't even try to hide it any more. Does anyone get fined for this these days?

Also people don't seem to use indicators either. You have to guess where they plan to go.

But probably the worst example I see all the time is the red light jumping. Everyone is at it, and I just think it shows how little patience people now have on the roads. It happens so often and on most occasions when you are opposite these people you get the green then start to move off but have to stop to let those light jumpers get past you. All to save perhaps 2mins of further waiting

This practice is particularly bad at temporary lights where roadworks are being done. I watched about 7 or 8 cars go through red's on these the other day. Sad.


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## Yorrick (3 Aug 2009)

Two more single driver fatalities this weekend. Midsummer, no ice on road.


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## Caveat (3 Aug 2009)

RMCF said:


> I learned to drive in NI, and we always thought that RoI drivers were awful. In fact many were hopeless when they came into NI, but now when I am back in the North I see examples of bad driving all the time.



I think this is more to do with a cavalier attitude - outside the jurisdiction, they can't get me type of thing.

I see lunatic, careless and selfish NI drivers in the republic regularly - my relatives in NI tell me the same thing happens there too.


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## Complainer (3 Aug 2009)

Having done about 1000 miles round the country in recent weeks, I thought that the standard did seem to have improved. The number of wild, dangerous overtaking manoeuvres seems to have dropped significantly, just 1 or 2 over my recent trips.

I do see lots of poor driving in the city, though most of this causes inconvenience to others rather than danger.


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## Graham_07 (3 Aug 2009)

I must say that I think that overall the standard has improved somewhat in the least 2 years or so.  There are the odd incidents but generally I think there is an improvement. I definitely don't see as many stupid overtaking manoeuvres as before. I also think manners have improved a bit.


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## Paulone (4 Aug 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> I must say that I think that overall the standard has improved somewhat in the least 2 years or so. There are the odd incidents but generally I think there is an improvement. I definitely don't see as many stupid overtaking manoeuvres as before. I also think manners have improved a bit.


 
+1 - the fact that there are fewer unaccompanied learners has made a big difference. There are always exceptions but I have noted fewer displays of astonishingly bad driving.

I do note tho that confusing or no indicating at roundabouts as well as continued errors in positioning while entering roundabouts is pretty universal. The whole country needs to revise that section in the Rules of the road.


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## Mpsox (4 Aug 2009)

IMO 3 things have happened to improve things, firstly fewer unaccompanies learners, secondly fewer drunk drivers and thirdly less traffic. White Van Man seems to be largely a thing of the past or at least an endangered species

To me the most dangerous issue remaining is people driving cars that are far too powerful for their ability. Some people seem to think that because they drive a certain make of car that the rules of the road don't apply to them. I have a theory that if I am going to be passed out by a loony breaking the limit or driving straight through a roundabout without looking or doing something else moronic then they are more then likely going to be driving an Audi/BMW/Merc/VW Passat/SUV


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## RonanC (4 Aug 2009)

It amazes me how many people I see on a daily basis driving in the middle lane (of 3) on the M50 and also N7 and are clearly not overtaking anybody in the inside lane (lane 1). 

This sounds like a small offence but when you think that you are not allowed undertake (unless driving in heavy traffic and all lanes are moving at the same speed) and if you are coming up behind someone in the middle lane and you are in lane 1 (inside lane) you have to move out to the outside lane (lane 3) to pass them legally. Pretty dangerous.

Also, I cant get over the amount of trucks that drive well over their legal speed limit (80kph) and also drive in the outside lanes of motorways.


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## Ceist Beag (4 Aug 2009)

RonanC said:


> It amazes me how many people I see on a daily basis driving in the middle lane (of 3) on the M50 and also N7 and are clearly not overtaking anybody in the inside lane (lane 1).
> 
> This sounds like a small offence but when you think that you are not allowed undertake (unless driving in heavy traffic and all lanes are moving at the same speed) and if you are coming up behind someone in the middle lane and you are in lane 1 (inside lane) you have to move out to the outside lane (lane 3) to pass them legally. Pretty dangerous.



You beat me to it RonanC. We had this discussion before on here but I agree completely, it baffles me how many people do this (drive in the middle lane when not overtaking) and don't seem to comprehend they are in the wrong!


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## Bill Struth (5 Aug 2009)

RonanC said:


> It amazes me how many people I see on a daily basis driving in the middle lane (of 3) on the M50 and also N7 and are clearly not overtaking anybody in the inside lane (lane 1).
> 
> This sounds like a small offence but when you think that you are not allowed undertake (unless driving in heavy traffic and all lanes are moving at the same speed) and if you are coming up behind someone in the middle lane and you are in lane 1 (inside lane) you have to move out to the outside lane (lane 3) to pass them legally. Pretty dangerous.
> 
> Also, I cant get over the amount of trucks that drive well over their legal speed limit (80kph) and also drive in the outside lanes of motorways.


I heard someone on the radio a while ago saying that they stay in the middle lane because they are going straight ahead.


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## Firefly (5 Aug 2009)

RonanC said:


> It amazes me how many people I see on a daily basis driving in the middle lane (of 3) on the M50 and also N7 and are clearly not overtaking anybody in the inside lane (lane 1).
> 
> This sounds like a small offence but when you think that you are not allowed undertake (unless driving in heavy traffic and all lanes are moving at the same speed) and if you are coming up behind someone in the middle lane and you are in lane 1 (inside lane) you have to move out to the outside lane (lane 3) to pass them legally. Pretty dangerous.
> 
> Also, I cant get over the amount of trucks that drive well over their legal speed limit (80kph) and also drive in the outside lanes of motorways.


 
I think people have this fear that they might get boxed-in if they stay on the inside lane and be forced to take a turn they don't want to.


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## RonanC (5 Aug 2009)

Firefly said:


> I think people have this fear that they might get boxed-in if they stay on the inside lane and be forced to take a turn they don't want to.


 
Unfortunately, someone's fear is really an ignorance to the rules of the road. Our motorways are clearly signposted well in advance of exits but people ignore them until the last minute or they simply fail to plan ahead. 

Bill Struth got it in one, people seem to think that if they are not exiting at the next exit they should stay in the middle lane which is wrong and dangerous for anyone travelling behind them and a greater speed.


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## Mpsox (5 Aug 2009)

RonanC said:


> It amazes me how many people I see on a daily basis driving in the middle lane (of 3) on the M50 and also N7 and are clearly not overtaking anybody in the inside lane (lane 1).
> 
> This sounds like a small offence but when you think that you are not allowed undertake (unless driving in heavy traffic and all lanes are moving at the same speed) and if you are coming up behind someone in the middle lane and you are in lane 1 (inside lane) you have to move out to the outside lane (lane 3) to pass them legally. Pretty dangerous.
> 
> Also, I cant get over the amount of trucks that drive well over their legal speed limit (80kph) and also drive in the outside lanes of motorways.


 
The N7 is becoming a bit of a race track lately, people seem to think the speed limit doesn't apply if they drive in lane 3


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## LouisLaLoope (5 Aug 2009)

I'm on the road a good bit and I don't notice completely wreckless driving.  Just really annoying driving!  

People who insist on driving at 80kph regardless of their location or the speed limit - motorway, town...  That's just their chosen speed and they stick to it.  

And people who drive 20kph below the allocated speed limit.  Why?!  Just put your foot down!  It's not dangerous!!

Also, slightly off topic, I HATE baby-on-board stickers.  At all times when I'm driving, I never want to crash into another car.  Baby stickers aren't going to make me try any harder.   So there.  Hmph.


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## Graham_07 (5 Aug 2009)

LouisLaLoope said:


> Also, slightly off topic, I HATE baby-on-board stickers. At all times when I'm driving, I never want to crash into another car. Baby stickers aren't going to make me try any harder. So there. Hmph.


 
So if the sign said "politician on board" would you have similar feelings


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## Graham_07 (5 Aug 2009)

LouisLaLoope said:


> And people who drive 20kph below the allocated speed limit. Why?! Just put your foot down! It's not dangerous!!


 
I guess some people treat a speed limit as that...a limit, not a target. If someone is safely driving at 80 in a 100 and traffic behind can safely overtake should they choose then why would that driver be forced to stick on the limit if they don't need or want to ?


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## RonanC (5 Aug 2009)

LouisLaLoope said:


> And people who drive 20kph below the allocated speed limit. Why?! Just put your foot down! It's not dangerous!!


 

Speed limits are maximum limits allowed. They are not targets that everyone must hit. 

Some people simply do not feel comfortable driving at the legal limit and drive within their own comfort zone which I dont really mind as long as they obey other speed limits in built up areas and so on.


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## LouisLaLoope (5 Aug 2009)

RonanC said:


> Speed limits are maximum limits allowed. They are not targets that everyone must hit. quote]
> 
> I know they're not targets, but drivers need to make a bit of an effort at least.  I think slow drivers show an absolute disregard for other road users (as do maniacs, of course).  They're not the only car on the road, and if they struggle to maintain something near to the speed limit, then maybe they shouldn't be driving.
> 
> ...


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## LouisLaLoope (5 Aug 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> I guess some people treat a speed limit as that...a limit, not a target. If someone is safely driving at 80 in a 100 and traffic behind can safely overtake should they choose then why would that driver be forced to stick on the limit if they don't need or want to ?


 
....and if the traffic behind can't safely overtake?!!!


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## delgirl (7 Aug 2009)

RonanC said:


> It amazes me how many people I see on a daily basis driving in the middle lane (of 3) on the M50 and also N7 and are clearly not overtaking anybody in the inside lane (lane 1).
> 
> This sounds like a small offence but when you think that you are not allowed undertake (unless driving in heavy traffic and all lanes are moving at the same speed) and if you are coming up behind someone in the middle lane and you are in lane 1 (inside lane) you have to move out to the outside lane (lane 3) to pass them legally. Pretty dangerous.
> 
> Also, I cant get over the amount of trucks that drive well over their legal speed limit (80kph) and also drive in the outside lanes of motorways.


You beat me to it as well RonanC, this type of behaviour is astonishing.

I drive quite a bit in France and Spain and although it can be a bit frightening when you're overtaking and someone comes up at speed behind you, they all know they have to drive on the right and overtake on the left.  They move over straight after they've overtaken and the traffic flows really well.

I recently drove south on the M1 where a driver was in the overtaking lane doing 50mph and the tail of drivers backing up behind the offending vehicle was amazing.  They ended up all dangeroursly undertaking.

Maybe the roads authority should place large signs on the side of the motorways 'drive on the left unless overtaking' until drivers get the message or threaten to issue penalty points to drivers who drive dangerously by obstructing traffic in the fast lane.


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## roker (8 Aug 2009)

If you are driving at the legal limit in the third lane, why should some want want to overtake? is there a need to pull over?


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## MandaC (8 Aug 2009)

Had the nearest of nearest of near misses this morning on Naas Road.  Car just literally cut in front of me from fast lane and would have hit me.....had to swerve into slow lane, my steering was actually shaking, the wheel was rocking back and forth and at one stage thought I was going to land on side of road...then she just darted back into fast lane so I would not get her number, but I had.   It was either a complete blind spot or drink driving....nearest of near misses...I am either very lucky or very unlucky. 

Wonder does that traffic number still work.  Person was going way to fast and even faster to get away.

Scary stuff...had legs like jelly for a couple of hours later


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## samanthajane (8 Aug 2009)

I was on the M1 the other day and the person in front insisted on doing 80 in the over taking lane. Traffic was held up and because i was in the inside lane i didn't want to over take on the inside. After 5 mins of people beeping and flashing their lights at her and she still hadn't pulled over,  I had no choice but to over take on the inside as the car behind me was right up the back to me. As did sereval other people as well, and still she didn't pull in. 

Is it actually against the law to stay in the over taking lane? I know you can get points in the UK but not sure about in Ireland ( should know really ) 

Has anyone every be caught over taking on the inside? What happens? Do you get a fine or points on your licence, or just a "dont do it again"


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## mathepac (9 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> If you are driving at the legal limit in the third lane, why should some want want to overtake? is there a need to pull over?


I take it from your  comments that you are a permanent fixture in Lane 3,  drive on a learner's permit and haven't familiarised yourself with the Rules of the Road yet? If you do have a full licence, I shudder to think what that says about the quality of our driving test.


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## roker (9 Aug 2009)

I merely asked a common sense question, if you are doing the legal limit in the third lane, only law breakers will want to overtake, is this you Mathepac?
I do not hog the 3rd lane but common sense must prevail, there is about a 6 mile stretch around the Cork bypass that require you to keep to the right because there is a constant filter of traffic joining the bypass from the left at the junctions, if you pulled to lane 1 and 2 you would be constantly changing lanes to allow them to enter from the left, I have even seen Garda doing this, it makes sense.

Our rules of the road are not consistent with other countries and may not be always correct, but someone in higher authority made them,we must follow them, for example when I was driving to the American rules, Turning left you passed the car coming from the opposite direction turning to their left on your right. (note this is for driving on the right of the road, on the left obviously the opposite applies here) The Irish rules of the road stated that each car waltzed around each other or crossed each others path to turn right, I could not believe it, is it the same now? As I have been driving for 40years I have not looked at it recently. We do know that the markings on a lot of roundabouts do not make sense, we only know which lane to go in because we do it every day, these were made by the same higher authority.


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## mathepac (9 Aug 2009)

@roker, thankfully the Rules of the Road govern behaviour on public roads in this country, not your common sense. From your latest post it seems you have a lot of reading to do in order to familiarise yourself with the Rules of the Road in relation to motorways, acceleration lanes, two vehicles making right turns at a junction, correct use of roundabouts and your use of Garda car drivers as role models. I find your admission to not having read the Rules of the Road recently astounding, but not surprising; are you suggesting there have been no changes to Road Traffic Law in all that time?

Our Rules of the Road are always correct as they are based on Irish Road Traffic Law at a specific date and there is no current obligation on our Legislature to comply with or be consistent with Road Traffic Law in any other jurisdiction. You might find this surprising, but its the way sovereign states work.

Please use the link I supplied in my previous post to update the evident gaps in your knowledge. Hopefully, amognst other things, it'll stop you illegally hogging the outside lane on the Culahill to Cashel bypass and make my motoring life a bit safer and easier.


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## Mpsox (10 Aug 2009)

In regards to the motorway and lane 3, if the traffic in lane 2 is moving at the speed limit, are cars allowed to drive in excess of the speed limit in lane 3 to pass them out. I'd argue no since they shouldn't be passing the traffic in lane 2 out at all, since they are not driving slowly. 

This is what bugs me about the N7, cars driving in lane 3, well in excess of the speed limit, even when there is nothing to pass out or when the cars in lane 2 are driving at the limit


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## liaconn (10 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> If you are driving at the legal limit in the third lane, why should some want want to overtake? is there a need to pull over?


 
If there is a constant stream of cars driving down the outside lane, how are people in the inside lane supposed to use it as an overtaking lane, ie its intended purpose, regardless of what speed you  are doing?


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## jmayo (10 Aug 2009)

delgirl said:


> You beat me to it as well RonanC, this type of behaviour is astonishing.
> 
> I drive quite a bit in France and Spain and although it can be a bit frightening when you're overtaking and someone comes up at speed behind you, they all know they have to drive on the right and overtake on the left.  They move over straight after they've overtaken and the traffic flows really well.
> 
> ...



I just love driving in the continent because of this attitude. 
Actually I came across loads of those signs in Australia that reminded people they drive on the left. 
Of course it would be common sense to have them here, but all we just hear is the mantra that speed kills.



roker said:


> If you are driving at the legal limit in the third lane, why should some want want to overtake? is there a need to pull over?



Try and read the rules of the road or better still go drive on Spanish or French dual carriageways or motorways.

BTW it is not your or anyone elses job to police the roads, it is the job of the gardaí.



roker said:


> I merely asked a common sense question, if you are doing the legal limit in the third lane, only law breakers will want to overtake, is this you Mathepac?
> I do not hog the 3rd lane but common sense must prevail, there is about a 6 mile stretch around the Cork bypass that require you to keep to the right because there is a constant filter of traffic joining the bypass from the left at the junctions, if you pulled to lane 1 and 2 you would be constantly changing lanes to allow them to enter from the left, I have even seen Garda doing this, it makes sense.
> 
> ... We do know that the markings on a lot of roundabouts do not make sense, we only know which lane to go in because we do it every day, these were made by the same higher authority.



It is not a common sense question.
Again try driving in other European countries and see how they manage to lane change.
Of course we have heard instances of Gardai pulling over drivers for what they term lane jumping, so I would suggest they also drive on e.g Spanish motorways for a few hours and see where hogging the outside lane gets them.
And with regard to joining motorways and dual carriageways why do Irish drivers do the following:
a) when on the motorway in light traffic refuse to move out onto overtaking lane so that traffic can join smoothly ?
b) drivers joping motoway almost come to a stop at joining point of motorway, why aren't they up near motorway speeds at this point ?

I do agree with you that some of the road makrings at junctions and roundabouts are misleading and dangerous.

As regards driving on normal national routes why do some drivers drive along at 80kph, believing they are really safe and then just go through the next village 15/20kph above the 50kph limit.
It is mind boggling and it appears the only logical reasons are they have either a bomb on board that goes off below 60 and above 80 or they only have two gears.


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## csirl (10 Aug 2009)

> It is mind boggling and it appears the only logical reasons are they have either a bomb on board that goes off below 60 and above 80 or they only have two gears.


 
Or cruise control switched on. 



> And with regard to joining motorways and dual carriageways why do Irish drivers do the following:
> a) when on the motorway in light traffic refuse to move out onto overtaking lane so that traffic can join smoothly ?
> b) drivers joping motoway almost come to a stop at joining point of motorway, why aren't they up near motorway speeds at this point ?


 
Agreed, the number of people you see slowing down when coming down the ramp is unreal - you should be at a similar speed to the traffic before you join and blend in.

How come minimum speeds are not enforced on our motorways? In some parts of the US you could be ticketed for dangerous driving for being anything more than 15-20mph below the speed limit. 

And how come slow moving vehicles are not policed? I came across 2 tractors pulling trailers with bails of hay doing c.20mph on the N1 yesterday.


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## delgirl (10 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> If you are driving at the legal limit in the third lane, why should some want want to overtake? is there a need to pull over?


You sound just like my other half who was recently pulled over by the Guards on the Stillorgan Dual Carriageway doing 60kph in a 60kph zone in the right hand lane!

He's also someone who believes that as long as you are travelling at the speed limit, you should be able to use whatever lane you like.  Not! 

The guards pulled him over and asked him what he was doing in the right hand lane.  He said he was travelling at the speed limit and that was ok.  They cautioned him and told him that he was not entitled to travel in that lane and was obstructing traffic by doing so - i.e. themselves and other emergency vehicles.


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## roker (10 Aug 2009)

Answer to Liaconn. You cannot use it as an overtaking lane if the overhead signs tell which lane to get in to, to go a certain route or direction. 
In the USA where I was, they constantly pass on the inside, I don’t know if it is legal but it’s accepted.
Another annoying thing, is drivers constantly touching their brakes when something is coming the otherway, do they think it is going to make their car more narrow.


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## Caveat (11 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> Another annoying thing, is drivers constantly touching their brakes when something is coming the otherway, do they think it is going to make their car more narrow.


 
 I agree on this one anyway - does my head in!


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## markpb (11 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> In the USA where I was, they constantly pass on the inside, I don’t know if it is legal but it’s accepted.




Undertaking is legal in the US but it's not here. Just like certain states allow right on red but not here. Your experience of driving in other countries is totally irrelevant and probably dangerous. Rules of the road exist so people drive in a predictable manner. If you drive according to someone else's rules, you won't be predictable to other drivers and you could easily cause a crash.


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## annR (11 Aug 2009)

> Agreed, the number of people you see slowing down when coming down the ramp is unreal - you should be at a similar speed to the traffic before you join and blend in.


 
Have you been around the m50 or the n3 recently?  With the roadworks, many of the on ramps end quite suddenly and you have no space to blend with the traffic, if there is no break in the traffic you are forced to stop.


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## liaconn (11 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> Answer to Liaconn. You cannot use it as an overtaking lane if the overhead signs tell which lane to get in to, to go a certain route or direction.


 
But that only happens when you're coming to the end of the motorway.


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## mathepac (11 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> But that only happens when you're coming to the end of the motorway.


or the start if you happen to be driving on the wrong side of the road, like they do in America.


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## Complainer (11 Aug 2009)

MandaC said:


> Wonder does that traffic number still work.  Person was going way to fast and even faster to get away.


It does. 1890 205805. Report him or her.


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## Marathon Man (12 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> I merely asked a common sense question, if you are doing the legal limit in the third lane, only law breakers will want to overtake, is this you Mathepac?


Trouble with common sense......its very rare!!
The outside lane (or third lane, if you want to call it that) is for OVERTAKING, not staying in, even if you are doing the legal limit.




roker said:


> ....there is about a 6 mile stretch around the Cork bypass that require you to keep to the right because there is a constant filter of traffic joining the bypass from the left at the junctions, if you pulled to lane 1 and 2.....


You are NOT *REQUIRED* to stay on the right on this stretch. People (like you) who feel that they are required to stay in the outside lane cause mayhem and reduce the options for other traffic. I drive this section every day and find the lane discipline appalling, even worse than the N7 into Dublin - and that's bad! There are three lanes along a good section of this particular stretch. I drive on the inner lane whenever possible, usually at the legal limit. Very often I pass a slower moving 'convoy' in the outer lane, with one completely empty lane in between us.

I don't know if this is illegal, i.e. undertaking with several lanes between, but it's better than tailgateing a slow moving convoy where the first car is hogging the lane because he/she is turning right 6 miles down the road!




roker said:


> ....you would be constantly changing lanes to allow them to enter from the left, I have even seen Garda doing this, it makes sense..


That's exactly what you're supposed to do, however I would hardly call it constant, even on the stretch you mention. What I find really annoying along this stretch is driving at 100kph on the inside lane and coming up against someone doing 60-80 in the middle lane, having to move out into the outer lane and back again - a 4 lane changeover because some plonker feels that by moving left he'd have to be "constantly changing lanes"

Along the three lane section,, I reckon that approx. 70% of the traffic drives in the outside (fast lane), 25% in the middle and 5% (if that) in the inside lane. Actually I find things pretty similar on the N7 into/out of Dublin, but there much of the traffic actually goes faster in the emptier inner lanes.




roker said:


> Our rules of the road are not consistent with other countries and may not be always correct, but someone in higher authority made them,we must follow them, for example when I was driving to the American rules, Turning left you passed the car coming from the opposite direction turning to their left on your right. (note this is for driving on the right of the road, on the left obviously the opposite applies here) The Irish rules of the road stated that each car waltzed around each other or crossed each others path to turn right, I could not believe it, is it the same now?


Yes it is. And it works well when it is (very rarely) done. I did it last night for the first time in years.



roker said:


> As I have been driving for 40years I have not looked at it recently. We do know that the markings on a lot of roundabouts do not make sense, we only know which lane to go in because we do it every day, these were made by the same higher authority.


Sounds like you do your own thing? 



roker said:


> As I have been driving for 40years I have not looked at it recently."


 Explains a lot. Have a read of it. Things HAVE changed in 40 years!

...and, by the way 


roker said:


> In the USA where I was, they constantly pass on the inside, I don’t know if it is legal but it’s accepted.


I see you profess not to be familair with the US Highway Code either!

I would LOVE to see the Gardai pull people for hogging ANY lane. I've never, ever heard of it happening. Anyone else?
[Edit: just spotted Delgirl's post - I'm truly amazed, but wouold love to see it happen regularly].

Finally, last evening, at rush hour, on this same section of the N25, I came across an imbecile driving a (horse drawn) sulkie on the hard shoulder, in a 100kph zone, approaching a major interchange


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## roker (12 Aug 2009)

Quote: 
You are NOT *REQUIRED* to stay on the right on this stretch. People (like you) who feel that they are required to stay in the outside lane cause mayhem and reduce the options for other traffic. I drive this section every day and find the lane discipline appalling, even worse than the N7 into Dublin - and that's bad! There are three lanes along a good section of this particular stretch. I drive on the inner lane whenever possible, usually at the legal limit. Very often I pass a slower moving 'convoy' in the outer lane, with one completely empty lane in between us.


If I pulled to the left then I risk colliding with traffic filtering from any of the interchanges coming from the left, then I am boxed in behind the slow drivers whilst the fast or over the speed limit cars overtake me. It is the convoy of lane 3 drivers causing mayhem! Be honest, you are the people flying down the outside lane boxing me in. If you see me in my Morris Minor please let me in, you don’t know what I have under the bonnet.


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## samanthajane (12 Aug 2009)

I dont get it? How do you risk colliding with the filtering traffic? Does that happen a lot where you live? Cause i've never seen it happen. Your driving along on the inside lane and another car is coming down the ramp you either 

1) have enough time judging by the speed you are travelling to be able to pass them before they reach where they need to merge. If this is the case then traffic is moving at a good enough speed where you could pull into lane 2 and then go back again. 

Or 2) if you are unable to pass and you cant move into another lane you slow down to allow them to enter. This only normally happens when traffic is going at a snails pace anyway. Then in time you will be able to pull out and over take if the person in front is not doing the speed that you want to go. 

Out of interest do you still stay in the third land even when the road ahead is clear? Or the cars infront are a good distance away.


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## Marathon Man (12 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> Quote:
> If I pulled to the left then I risk colliding with traffic filtering from any of the interchanges coming from the left, then I am boxed in behind the slow drivers whilst the fast or over the speed limit cars overtake me. It is the convoy of lane 3 drivers causing mayhem!


 
On the section of the N25 that your refer to, there is only one intersection, on one side, where you MIGHT, POSSIBLY, at times have a problem with merging traffic, due to high volumes 'merging' - that is the intersection merging from the South Link, heading East. On ALL the other intersections, heading East or West along this 6 mile stretch of the N25, there are long slip roads, so there is no need for you to be out in the outside lane. 

So...because you might (possibly) be boxed in at one distinct location on a 6 mile stretch, you feel that you are, quote, "required", unquote, to stay in the outside lane???




roker said:


> Be honest, you are the people flying down the outside lane boxing me in. If you see me in my Morris Minor please let me in, you don’t know what I have under the bonnet.


Is this your approach to driving? Your concern is that you might be boxed in by faster traffic on the outside? You also imply that you have something powerful "under the bonnet". What you have, or don't have under the bonnet has absolutely no bearing on lane discipline. The outer lane is not something reserved for those who have 'something' "under the bonnet"

Based on your posts, I am more concerned with what you have behind the wheel.


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## Graham_07 (12 Aug 2009)

The most dangerous component in a car is often thought to be the nut behind the steering wheel


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## Mpsox (12 Aug 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> The most dangerous component in a car is often thought to be the nut behind the steering wheel


 
It was after 10 when I left work yesterday and I was driving home, minding my own business. In one place there is a long stretch of road in which you can see all the cars ahead of you for about a mile and anyone coming against you. There were about 5 cars ahead of me over the mile and one coming against me. For some reason, the guy coming against us thought it was hilarious to turn his lights on full, just as he was passing every car, including mine(and yes, I had dipped my lights). I really cannot even begin to understand the mentality of that person.

It got me thinking of other things that bug me, people who don't seem to realise what indicators are for, people who wander about the lanes and roundabouts, people who drive too slow, lorries in the right hand lane, people who don't look when changing lanes (I had about €5000 of damage done to my car once thanks to that), people on mobile phones(buy a hands free or turn the bloody things off, there is never going to be call so important that you have to take it in a car whilst driving, if you job was that vital, you'd have a driver), tail-gating, driving with a hand stuck out the window(I'm seeing a spate of that at the minute for some reason), the list goes on and on. 

Perhaps above all, speeding. There's been a lot of posts about lanes and speed in this thread. To me if you are persitantly driving for mile after mile, in the right hand lane of a duel carraige-way and are over and well over the limit, you're in the wrong and driving dangerously. If you don't believe me, try it the next time you see a speed camera and then argue your case in court and see how far you get. Lane 3 does not exist for someone to drive down it at 150mph or so when there is virtually no other car on the road (something else I saw last night)

rant over............ I feel better already


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## mathepac (12 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> ... If you see me in my Morris Minor please let me in, you don’t know what I have under the bonnet.


I think the general concern here is not with what's under your bonnet, but with whatever might be  between your ears.


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## samanthajane (12 Aug 2009)

mathepac said:


> I think the general concern here is not with what's under your bonnet, but with whatever might be between your ears.


 
I dont think there is much between his ears. And what ever he does have will be splattered on some motorway if he carrys on driving the way he does.


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## roker (12 Aug 2009)

I am now stuck in the 2nd lane, when someone allows me to enter the 3rd or RH lane, does this mean that I must go an illegal speed like everyone else to prevent the cars backing up behind me?


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## samanthajane (12 Aug 2009)

No you only need to overtake if the person in front is not going at the max speed, other wise why would you want to over take in the first place. If you need to over take once you have done so and you can see the car clearly in your rear view mirror, you then look again, signal and then pull back into the 2nd lane, that way you wont have the idiots that stay in the 3rd lane breaking the speed limit tail gating you!


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## roker (12 Aug 2009)

I am now lane hopping because all the cars in the 2nd lane are only doing 80km including the one that I overtook, I want to do a legal 100km but everyone in the 3rd lane are exceeding this.


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## mathepac (12 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> I am now stuck in the 2nd, ...


I have a solution that is guaranteed to work.


 Check your rear-view mirrors, indicate left and when it is safe to do so move into lane 1.
 Cancel your indicator (you can do this by moving the indicator switch to the  central position)
 Check your rear-view mirrors, indicate left and when it is safe to do so move onto the hard-shoulder
 Cancel your indicator (you can do this by moving the indicator switch to the  central position)
 Apply the brakes and bring you car to complete halt, select neutral on the stick-shift (or autobox where fitted) and apply the hand-brake (safety-brake or parking-brake if you're still in US-mode)
 Switch the engine (motor) off and remove the key from the ignition
 Turn on the hazard flashers (depress the large triangular switch in the centre (center if you are in US-mode) of the dash-board
 Exit the vehicle (via the driver's door is easiest), and lock the car (automobile)
 Proceed to the rear of the vehicle and stand facing the boot (trunk)
 Close your eyes and using your stronger arm, throw the car-keys as far as you can into the field on your left
 Keep your eyes tightly closed, walk backwards, edging out into oncoming traffic as you do
 If you safely cross all 6 or 8 lanes, repeat from step 11 until you hear a load screech of brakes & tyres and feel a very hard bump.
 Problem solved.

You may not like the solution, but it works for me.


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## liaconn (12 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> I am now lane hopping because all the cars in the 2nd lane are only doing 80km including the one that I overtook, I want to do a legal 100km but everyone in the 3rd lane are exceeding this.


 
Well, that is the point we are trying to make. People should use the 3rd lane to overtake then pull back in, leaving the lane free for anyone else who wants to overtake. It's an overtaking lane, not a fast lane.


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## samanthajane (12 Aug 2009)

mathepac said:


> I have a solution that is guaranteed to work.
> 
> 
> Check your rear-view mirrors, indicate left and when it is safe to do so move into lane 1.
> ...


 
hahahaha have you ever tried doing stand up? that was very good!


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## roker (12 Aug 2009)

Thanks everyone, it prompted a few thoughts and must make us all see the other persons point of view, To the fast drivers it’s a pity their mind is not as fast as their driving and they could not recognise a wind up. I hope no offence taken. and of course I do not drive a Morris Minor I have a 1967 Citroen Dyane.


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## mathepac (12 Aug 2009)

samanthajane said:


> hahahaha have you ever tried doing stand up? that was very good!


Thanks, no I prefer annoying specially selected AAMers about driving habits and Golden Pages deliveries. (Yellow Pages deliveries if you're in US-mode)


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## samanthajane (12 Aug 2009)

mathepac said:


> Thanks, no I prefer annoying specially selected AAMers about driving habits and Golden Pages deliveries. (Yellow Pages deliveries if you're in US-mode)


 

haha ah you didn't annoy me, i dont get hung up on things like that. If we all thought the same way the world would be a perfect place, and a very boring one!


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## Marathon Man (13 Aug 2009)

roker said:


> To the fast drivers it’s a pity their mind is not as fast as their driving and they could not recognise a wind up.


Now is that a wind-up within a wind-up?  

Seriously though, referring to the intersection of the South Link and the N25, there is going to be a SERIOUS accident here, given the way many drivers emerging from the South Link, literally 'kamikaze' straight across three lanes of flowing traffic, ignoring lanes, continuous white lines and ghost islands.


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## RMCF (14 Aug 2009)

Noticed this over recent years but got an awful example today that had me laying on the horn as the scumbags passed,

Temporary traffic lights at some roadworks. I was 2nd in line sitting behind a red light, waiting. It changed to green, but we still had to give way to cars coming through. I counted 11 cars that we had to give way to before we could move off. And as I drove past the green light it changed to red again!! I then watched in my rear view as approx 8 or so cars drove through this red to join in behind me. As we drove past the roadworks and past the cars on the other side I looked back at their light, and it was of course green, but now they were waiting on us scumbags!!

Its anarchy now at lights. There is no regard for a RED light any more.


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## annet (15 Aug 2009)

Swords roundabout - 6 exits - going from malahide road to pavillion - outerlane moving to third exit.... other idiots come right up on the inner lane which is clearly marked for feltrim and the swords road into town and then they maneouvre across two lanes to go into the pavillion (maybe to get their meds)... lane discipline is not exactly their forte.... and then they look like laurel hardy ... "what did I do wrong" "hello".  I am surprised that there's been no major accidents other than the couple of jugernauts and trucks overturning and those that know the overhead pedestrian bridges down!!!


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## samanthajane (15 Aug 2009)

Oh annet i feel your pain, and i'm also very surprised there has been no accidents on that roundabout. 

Another beauty is coming from airside, and you want to continue straight on towards the M1. Left lane clearly marked that you can only use that lane to go into the pavillions. 2 lanes left, can use either of these to continue straight on and the out side lane if you were heading malahide direction....simple enough you say, you need eyes like a hawk doing that route cause every single time some one will come up on the left side lane and then cross directly in front of you, from the left hand lane to either go towards malahide of feltrim!!! totally madness. 

I've lost count of the amount of time someone has done that to me. 

Only thing i will give them is that round about is a total mess to begin with, i dont think anyone knows what they are doing, even people in the middle lane will cross infront of you because if they stay in the right hand lane they have no time to cross over to be in the inside lane to take that exit because of the traffic lights. 

And lets not mention how difficult it is to even get to where you want to go via that round about, with all the cars lines up at the traffic lights to begin with. 

I remember when that round about had no traffic lights, ( oh god thats about 8 years ago ) in my opinion traffic moved much more easily than what it does now. I avoid that roundabout as much as possible, i'll even pay for parking at pennys and drive up through swords main street than attemp to get around it.


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## annet (15 Aug 2009)

I too remember when there was no traffic lights on that roundabout - depending on where you were coming from it was a complete free for all - not to mention taking your life into your hands!  There was a couple of accidents on that roundabout particularly coming from Belfast end - when truck drivers and jugernauts were travelling too quickly and they overturned.  I also experienced the same coming from Airside - people from middle lane cut right accross when they decide to exit down the malahide road or the feltrim - could be potentially a very expensive lesson for these idiots to make.... or alternatively those who block the roundabout and enter the yellow box junctions.  Whoever planned the entrance to the pavillion (or granted planning permission... was that one of Ray Burke's legacies???) was just a pure genius!!  It's much easier to park in pennys' rather than try to get into the pav esp. if its sat or sun!

The other beauty is coming from the auburn roundabout turning left onto the Navan road heading to the M50 roundabout - and despite clear road markings on the road delineating that the right hand lane is for persons who are turning right onto the Navan road into town - you still get these not so high in the IQ queue jumpers who come up the right hand lane, and regardless of whether there are people going straight ahead down the river road these idiots indicate left (as if this gives them a right) and continue to maneouvre left cross-cutting the drivers who actually have the right of way.


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## AlastairSC (21 Aug 2009)

Just read all through this thread! Agree with OP. Big issue here is lack of enforcement - if we won't pay for traffic police to ticket poor/speeding driving on the spot then let's just use speed cameras like the UK. 

Other problem is the large number of single-lane roads with heavy traffic loads. All it takes is one t--- (often in a Nissan Micra) driving relatively too slowly for the conditions/too far out near the centre line to create a huge tailback. Responsible driving should mean they come up to average (but still safe) driving speed and mix properly with the rest of the traffic or else pull over when their mirrors tell them there's 15 cars behind for no good reason. The Rules say drive as far to the left as practicable - on wide single-carriageway roads this should be enough to allow others to pass without crossing a continuous white line...


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## Pique318 (21 Aug 2009)

I'm trying to resist the temptation to rant on this thread. I am generally a driver who let's things go fairly quickly when some other t..t annoys me but believe me, I've loads. 

The problem is, we all do. 

Lane discipline (or lack thereof), dangerous overtaking, tailgating, no lights on in poor conditions (or sidelights at the very most, worried that the battery might suddenly discharge due to 200W load on it), indicators used as optional accessories (and this is coming from a BMW driver!), unrestrained children, utter incompetents (Large population of drivers, unfortunately), slow moving traffic holding up a queue on a continuous white line; I must admit here that I was recently awarded 2 whole points for the pittance of €60, for overtaking a 20mph driver towing a boat on a stretch where I was completely safe to overtake, but still broke the law, mea culpa. My problem is that the gardai who stopped me basically had no issue with this particular driver holding up 20+ cars, just me. Ah well..

Hhmmm, resistance is futile, huh!?


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## Caveat (6 Sep 2009)

I'm very interested in the response to this one:

Two roundabouts in quick succession.  In terms of a clock face, you enter the first one at 6 (as you do) and there are only two possible exits - 9 and 12.

About 20m leading up to the roundabout the road splits into two lanes.

If I intend to exit at 12 thus taking me to the next (seemingly less ambiguous) roundabout, I stay in the outer lane - right?!

80% of the traffic seem to use the outer lane only if they are exiting at 9  and will use the inner lane for exiting at 12.  There is another exit at 3 but as it is one way only, it is of no relevance to drivers approaching this roundabout.

I have always been taught that you stay in the outer lane unless your exit is past 12 o'clock.  But as I seem to be very much in the minority, I'm starting to wonder.

Please someone tell me I'm right.


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## mathepac (6 Sep 2009)

> ... Please someone tell me I'm right.


I'm afraid not. I was taught to stay in the near-side lane unless I am taking the exit at 3 o'clock or using the roundabout to do a 360 back to 6 o'clock.
From the Rules of the Road (a downloadable PDF) on http://www.rsa.ie/

"Going straight ahead;
Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want."

It also lists the *exceptional cases* where you *may* use the off-side lane to access the 12 o'clock exit.

I am now convinced I am one of only three people in the country who understands lane discipline and knows how to use a roundabout correctly (the others are my brother and my daughter both of whom I taught to drive.)


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## Caveat (7 Sep 2009)

mathepac said:


> "Going straight ahead;
> Approach in the left-hand lane but do not signal yet.
> Signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want."


 
Maybe I explained it badly, but this is what I do!

However most other drivers use the right lane in my case.


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## mathepac (7 Sep 2009)

Caveat said:


> ... If I intend to exit at 12 ... I stay in the outer lane - right?! ...


We seem to have a terminology mismatch (or you're left-handed ).

When it comes to lanes on a multi-lane carriageway, I equate [left / inner / near-side] as one lane and [right / outer / off-side] as a different lane.


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## Pique318 (7 Sep 2009)

I agree. That's the way I was taught and the way I have always practised.

But a new roundabout that I now use has the lanes marked as follows:
Left lane - left turn only.
Right lane, straight on.
No exit at 3 o'clock.

It's a small roundabout, and can be bloody hairy as people use a combination of the rotr and the lane markings.

I hate the way the councils take it upon themselves to change the accepted practice!!


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## Caveat (7 Sep 2009)

mathepac said:


> We seem to have a terminology mismatch...


 
 Yeah maybe - it's me.  When I say 'outer' I mean in the sense of an 'outer ring' as it were, surrounding the roundabout. i.e. the left lane.


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## mathepac (7 Sep 2009)

Pique318 said:


> ... It's a small roundabout, and can be bloody hairy as people use a combination of the rotr and the lane markings.
> 
> I hate the way the councils take it upon themselves to change the accepted practice!!


The RotR booklet cops out by saying motorists  must always  obey the council's  "road markings" at roundabouts which can be difficult when there's traffic on top of the road markings!


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## Complainer (7 Sep 2009)

Pique318 said:


> I agree. That's the way I was taught and the way I have always practised.
> 
> But a new roundabout that I now use has the lanes marked as follows:
> Left lane - left turn only.
> ...


Just drive in the middle, taking up the two lanes - much safer.


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## Purple (7 Sep 2009)

Complainer said:


> Just drive in the middle, taking up the two lanes - much safer.



Great idea


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## Marathon Man (9 Sep 2009)

mathepac said:


> The RotR booklet cops out by saying motorists must always obey the council's "road markings" at roundabouts which can be difficult when there's traffic on top of the road markings!


 
...and what about the situation where (this happens at any type of junction, not just roundabouts) you follow the arrow, e.g. arrow points directly ahead, possibly with wording too, e.g. "town centre", and then just at the junction, the arrow changes to some other direction altogether! 

...sometimes I wonder about the intelligence of the people who dream up these road marking schemes!


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## Sue Ellen (9 Sep 2009)

Complainer said:


> Just drive in the middle, taking up the two lanes - much safer.



Talking about driving in the middle, I've noticed of late that people are regularly going too close to the white line because they try to avoid the ramps.  On certain roads where these ramps are side by side it can get quite hairy with both cars hugging the white line.

I remember some years ago travelling in a car with a colleague and he drove in the middle of the road over the white line.  When I mentioned that this was quite dangerous he said it was the done thing on the advanced driving course 

On holidays recently in Donegal regularly found people driving in the middle of the road which can be quite dangerous when they come around the bend heading towards you.


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## mathepac (9 Sep 2009)

Marathon Man said:


> ...sometimes I wonder about the intelligence of the people who dream up these road marking schemes!


Ah yes, "Speeling", I remember old Speeling well, damn fine chap, what, waht.

The problem is not one of intelligence or a lack thereof. It has to do with the legacy systems embedded in the road-sign creation and interpretation departments in council offices throughout the land and the inherent difficulties these create in translating arrows, signifying direction changes, from one language to another and matching them with appropriately congruent words.

Under the old Runic system this posed no challenge as a stroke was a stroke, especially among the FF'ers, but as we moved from the well-known Runic to the more modern Irish alphabet and from there to the rather less well known Roman alphabet,  issues arose in the  council offices.

In the years 2BC or even 1BC (BC = Before Cowen) "money", a plentiful commodity at the time, could have been thrown at the problem and it would have smothered under the sheer weight of this  "money". The commodity no longer exists and we are only left with its name and the mythology of how it was used to hide problems.

Sorry, I digress, back the legacy systems still in use. One person's "Centre" or "Straight Ahead" could be interpreted as "Slightly Left of Center" (note the colonial speeling of centre caused by watching too many episodes of The Simpsons) or maybe even as "Right On Brother"if translated by a road-sign creator with Afro-American jeans (note that should be genes but we don't discuss medical issue on AAM).

So until we can create more of this mythical "money", it seems we will have to resort to either driving by the seat of our pants or handing the wheel over to a learner - they are certainly not in short supply.


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## roker (9 Sep 2009)

I quoted this in this thread and was told to follow the "Rules of the Road"

09/08/09 We do know that the markings on a lot of roundabouts do not make sense, we only know which lane to go in because we do it every day, these were made by the same higher authority.

By the way: I always use the LH lane to go straight on unless the markings say otherwise.


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## Sylvester3 (10 Sep 2009)

I notice that every single time I go for a drive there are dozens of eejits going the wrong way - all of them flashing and honking as if they owned the road! Idiots, all of them!


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## Complainer (10 Sep 2009)

Sylvester3 said:


> I notice that every single time I go for a drive there are dozens of eejits going the wrong way - all of them flashing and honking as if they owned the road! Idiots, all of them!


Welcome back, Dr Jim.


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## Pique318 (10 Sep 2009)

Complainer said:


> Welcome back, Dr Jim.


LOL 

Was it him you met, Sue Ellen ?


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