# Landlord Being Unreasonable with Rent



## bigbadostric (22 May 2009)

Hi all,

I signed a one year lease at the start of September to rent a 3 bed with 2 other guys for €1,750 per month. Since then rents have plummeted, and we have all taken a 5-10% paycut.

The landlord in question stubbornly refuses to lower the rent despite us submitting evidence that other houses in the area are going for significantly less. The icing on the cake came when the house next door, which is identical in every way, went for €1,375 last week. That's a whopping €375 a month difference.

I fully appreciate that we signed a lease and I am not the type to walk out on an agreement, but does anyone have any suggestions as to how we could approach him on the subject again? We will obviously be voting with our feet come the end of August.


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## steelblue (22 May 2009)

Hi,

suppose you signed a lease 1375euro last august and the landlord came to you now and said  that the house beside you had rented for 1750 euro. Would you accept him trying to renegotiate the rent upwards.

He should probably reduce it somewhat if you are good tenants and plan on stay for more than the year. In the current climate , it pays to look after good tenants.


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## Guest116 (22 May 2009)

steelblue makes a good point and I agree with it.

At least you only have 3 months left on your lease.


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## jhegarty (22 May 2009)

Both sides protected the rate for 12 months. This time he won. I am sure you won at some stage over the last few years.


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## Howitzer (22 May 2009)

Wait it out and then move. The landlord isn't being unresonable, you signed a contract.

Take it as a lesson in negotiation skills.


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## bigbadostric (22 May 2009)

Howitzer said:


> Wait it out and then move. The landlord isn't being unresonable, you signed a contract.
> 
> Take it as a lesson in negotiation skills.


 
I think the fact that we were willing to sign a new 1 year contract in return for a reduction suggests that he is most certainly being unreasonable, both in a personal and business sense.

Oh well, as I said I'm not the type to walk out on a signed contract so will stick it out till August!


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## cerberos (22 May 2009)

I agree sometimes you  win sometimes u win - the contract should hold or what's the point of having one.


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## murphaph (22 May 2009)

The landlord is not being unreasonable but unless he's looking to sell the house then he is being a tad stupid. He's got the opportunity to get a new 12 month lease signed with the OP (who seems decent and someone who will abide by the new lease) but he is being rigid to the terms of the (short!) lease and will pay the price when the tenants move out.


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## Setanta12 (22 May 2009)

Leave it to the last minute to sign a new agreement, then when he visits to get the new lease signed.

Show him packed bags, empty cupboards etc and show him you're walking if rent isn't as low as you would like (perhaps even lower than market!?

The thoughts of an empty flat for a week or two looking for a new tenant should prompt some quick recalculations of rent.


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## elcato (22 May 2009)

> Leave it to the last, make it look as if you're going to renew then when he turns up


Presume the OP needs to give a months notice so this is not a runner. I dont think the LL is unreasonable as he may feel he can get it rented quickly - may be foolish given the facts as we see them but he may see things differently. You haven't mentioned any figures for re-signing a lease.


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## shesells (22 May 2009)

Ever thought that the landlord may not be able to afford the drop at this time. 12 months at the higher rate may already be budgeted for. Not every landlord is mega rich with multiple units rolling in the cash, and your landlord has the lease in his favour. You are entitled to a rent review, annually. Your year is not up yet.


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## MrMan (22 May 2009)

Or do as alot of tenants do and dont pay next months rent, let him keep deposit and start looking now for a new place.


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## shesells (22 May 2009)

MrMan said:


> Or do as alot of tenants do and dont pay next months rent, let him keep deposit and start looking now for a new place.



You are encouraging the OP to breach their lease ie break a legal contract. How helpful!


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## lightswitch (23 May 2009)

+1 for MrMan.  Lets face it, from someone who has rented a house out in the past.  The signed lease is not worth the paper its written on, other than possibly in the case of an eviction after a very long period of time.


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## sam h (23 May 2009)

MrMan said:


> Or do as alot of tenants do and dont pay next months rent, let him keep deposit and start looking now for a new place.


 

That is terrible advice - the deposit is there to cover any damage to the property & outstanding bills.  Please don't encourage people to break the law by not paying their rent, the landlord may be unyielding but they have done nothing wrong and as someone said, the tenant wouldn't be so quick to complain if the rents had shot up over the last year (as they did a few years back).

The landlord has no obligation to lower the rent during the contract, even though many have (me included).  I dare say he will reconsider if you make it clear to him that you like the property but you will be moving out at the end of the contract if you can't agree something. 

Mr Man - aren't you involved in property & rental?


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## sam h (23 May 2009)

bigbadostric said:


> I think the fact that we were willing to sign a new 1 year contract in return for a reduction suggests that he is most certainly being unreasonable, both in a personal and business sense.


 
By the way - what rental were you offering ?


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## donee (23 May 2009)

bigbadostric said:


> I think the fact that we were willing to sign a new 1 year contract in return for a reduction suggests that he is most certainly being unreasonable, both in a personal and business sense.
> 
> Oh well, as I said I'm not the type to walk out on a signed contract so will stick it out till August!


 you seem to only want to sign contracta that suit you and change  them also to suit you ie your origanal contract was for 12 mths not 9 mths . how long did you intend to onour this new agreement for ?  i would personally do as a previous poster said and in three months offer him/her  less than the market at that time to  and recoup some of  your losses


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## donee (23 May 2009)

sorry also remind him that if you leave he'll have to upgrade the property , costs involved and he will now need a BER cert and the cost involved in that if you leave etc.


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## MrMan (23 May 2009)

shesells said:


> You are encouraging the OP to breach their lease ie break a legal contract. How helpful!


 
People don't need encouragement, I'm just pointing out a very obvious scenario that happens alot around the country. The tenant in this case seems very reasonable and landlord tenant law in this country is not policed very well so sometimes people have to look out for their own interests.


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## MrMan (23 May 2009)

sam h said:


> That is terrible advice - the deposit is there to cover any damage to the property & outstanding bills. Please don't encourage people to break the law by not paying their rent, the landlord may be unyielding but they have done nothing wrong and as someone said, the tenant wouldn't be so quick to complain if the rents had shot up over the last year (as they did a few years back).
> 
> The landlord has no obligation to lower the rent during the contract, even though many have (me included). I dare say he will reconsider if you make it clear to him that you like the property but you will be moving out at the end of the contract if you can't agree something.
> 
> Mr Man - aren't you involved in property & rental?


 
I'm coming at it from a practical viewpoint, the damage is there to cover the damage etc, but the OP doesn't mention damage. The tenant can still legally give notice and be due his deposit back if the landlord manages to find a new tenant in the mean time. By with holding the rent it might change the landlords viewpoint. The landlord will not lose out if he is so confident in maintaining those rental levels.
Again I'm approaching this situation from a practical viewpoint i.e what would usually happen.


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## Mommah (23 May 2009)

I've refused 5 of my 6 tenants a rent reduction.
only one moved out and I replaced him at a higher rate than the mover-outer was willing to pay, with no vacant period.

I'm living on that income and am not willing to take a pay-cut on tenants whims. Some of my tenants even had the nerve to say that the cost of living had increased !


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## NicolaM (23 May 2009)

Being a landlord is a business, with associated costs and overheads. (and less potential profit now, due to the recent budgetary changes). The lease provides protections in both directions, in terms of the cost of the rental to the renter, and income for the landlord.

A lease is a contract, and applies for the term of same. The person is aware of the terms prior to signing the legally binding documentation. It is interesting that people genuinely believe that they have a right to re-negotiate during the term of the lease. (It may happen that they attempt to do so, and this may in fact be successful, but they certainly do not have a legal right to do so).

It's a tad like signing a contract for a mortgage, then deciding that you don't really like the terms, and expecting the provider to change the terms on the basis of this. 

Nicola


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## MrMan (24 May 2009)

NicolaM said:


> Being a landlord is a business, with associated costs and overheads. (and less potential profit now, due to the recent budgetary changes). The lease provides protections in both directions, in terms of the cost of the rental to the renter, and income for the landlord.
> 
> A lease is a contract, and applies for the term of same. The person is aware of the terms prior to signing the legally binding documentation. It is interesting that people genuinely believe that they have a right to re-negotiate during the term of the lease. (It may happen that they attempt to do so, and this may in fact be successful, but they certainly do not have a legal right to do so).
> 
> ...


 
Unfortunately it is a business that is not always treated with the required respect on both sides. Some lease agreements are very flimsy and some will only be in the form of a rent book. It is not like signing a mortgage agreement as you will not have solicitors present to pour over the details to ensure that they are fair.
If you do not ask you will not receive.


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## Padraigb (24 May 2009)

NicolaM said:


> Being a landlord is a business, with associated costs and overheads. ...



The landlord is within his rights to seek the full rent agreed, and OP recognises that. Equally OP is within his rights to propose a new lease. Nobody seems to have been wronged an any sense that requires redress.

It comes down to a straight business decision for the landlord: is it worth negotiating a fresh lease in these circumstances? I suspect, given what OP has told us, that the landlord might have made a bad call.


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## sam h (24 May 2009)

> but the OP doesn't mention damage


 
Of course not, he is not likely to say I've caused damage (& obviously, there may not be any damage). You comment not to pay the last months rent sounds more like advice coming from a maveric, rather than (or so I thought) a seasoned professional in the property market. I recently complimented you on your normally balanced approach to property, but I may have to have a rethink. 

The OP has a contract & it is the LL's discression not to drop the rent - the OP may not be the fantastic tenant you seem to assume he is - the LL may be happy to get him out & then drop the rent. 

If the LL is just being greedy, he will get his comeupance in September when he will lose his tenant, have to redecorate & look for a new tenant at (almost certainly) a lower rent.


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## d2x2 (24 May 2009)

shesells said:


> Ever thought that the landlord may not be able to afford the drop at this time.



That is not relevant. If the landlord didn't allow for market fluctations then that is his / her problem. Not that I don't empathise... but you should look out for yourself first and foremost. 

Give your notice as set out in contract and move in next door for a cheaper price. That's the way the market goes and what contracts are for.


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## MrMan (25 May 2009)

sam h said:


> Of course not, he is not likely to say I've caused damage (& obviously, there may not be any damage). You comment not to pay the last months rent sounds more like advice coming from a maveric, rather than (or so I thought) a seasoned professional in the property market. I recently complimented you on your normally balanced approach to property, but I may have to have a rethink.
> 
> The OP has a contract & it is the LL's discression not to drop the rent - the OP may not be the fantastic tenant you seem to assume he is - the LL may be happy to get him out & then drop the rent.
> 
> If the LL is just being greedy, he will get his comeupance in September when he will lose his tenant, have to redecorate & look for a new tenant at (almost certainly) a lower rent.


What reason would a poster have to lie about whether they were a good tenant or not, this is an  anonymous forum. My comment about the last months rent was stating the obvious that occurs on a regular basis. Whether I agree with the practice of running down your last months rent is irrelevent, what is relevant is that it is a very common practice.
If the OP is not a good tenant then why is the Landlord keeping him?
If things were run by the letter of the law in all instances then it is easier to give advice, but as I am well aware the rules change to suit circumstances. If the OP was the Landlord the advice would be different.


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## Bronte (25 May 2009)

NicolaM said:


> A lease is a contract, and applies for the term of same. The person is aware of the terms prior to signing the legally binding documentation. It is interesting that people genuinely believe that they have a right to re-negotiate during the term of the lease. (It may happen that they attempt to do so, and this may in fact be successful, but they certainly do not have a legal right to do so).
> 
> It's a tad like signing a contract for a mortgage, then deciding that you don't really like the terms, and expecting the provider to change the terms on the basis of this.
> 
> Nicola


 
Unfortunately in Ireland leases aren't worth the paper they are written on.  The truth is the tenant can vamoose and the landlord can basically do nothing about it.  MrMan is dead right, in the scenario outlined by the OP the tenant would just do a runner and the landlord would just deal with it.


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## sam h (25 May 2009)

Bronte said:


> Unfortunately in Ireland leases aren't worth the paper they are written on. The truth is the tenant can vamoose and the landlord can basically do nothing about it. MrMan is dead right, in the scenario outlined by the OP the tenant would just do a runner and the landlord would just deal with it.


 
There are plently of things that happen in Ireland on a daily basis that are not correct (be it legally or morally) but I don't think that is an excuse to be giving tips to poster on how to get out of contracts.  My understanding re rental contracts, is not so much that they don't hold legal weight, but that it is often financially not worth while to persue tenants (esp with the PRTB who tend to favour tenants)


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## Bronte (25 May 2009)

MrMan is just telling it how it is.  Until leases are properly enforceable that is the way it will be.


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## Steve D (26 May 2009)

You should tell the landlord that if he drops the rent now, then you will renew the lease in August. Tell him that if he refuses to do this now, you will definitely move out in August. Surely it is better for him to accept a lower rent from now until August with a good prospect of you renewing your lease then (at the lower rate, of course), rather than you moving out in August and leaving him with a vacant property that he could end up taking several months to rent out.

Show him the oversupply of property to rent in the properties to rent graph on daft at this site:
http://daftwatch.thepropertypin.com/

This shows that the total number of properties to rent, just on Daft alone, has increased from about 4,000 in March 2007 to 24,000 now! That should make him aware of the seriousness of the problem and that he will have a lot of cheaper competition when he tries to rent it out in August.


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