# Immigrants to fill 400,000 Jobs



## stipie74 (8 Jul 2004)

I am new to this site and was wondering what people thought about the headline article in this morning's Indo...
[link=http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1211448&issue_id=11107 newwindow]Headline of the Indo[/link]

Hopefully the government can form some sort of proper  immigration policy that will allow cultural integration and I don't just mean Eastern European, I also mean an African influence. Maybe the Government might educate the Muppets who believe that because someone is from a different country, they are automatically a sponger living off the State. 

One last thought... I did not see Mr. Muppet mc Muppet McDowell rushing to 'plug the hole' in the Constitution that allows a American to claim Irish Grandparents and automatically gain Citizenship. Maybe it was because it a 'white plug hole' and not a 'black one'


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## Prometheus2 (8 Jul 2004)

The problem as I see it is there are still a lot of people in Ireland who see immigrants in this country as a plague in our society. Its evident everywhere-on the street, in the pub or local supermarket, even in the workplace. I regularly have to endure the "arguments" of mindless individuals which consist of derogatory remarks and resentment towards immigrants in this country. There are even members of this forum who constantly attempt to ruin good threads with their bigotry. 

I just hope that the forementioned article helps people to finally come to terms with the fact that Ireland is becoming more and more a multicultural society.


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## Guest (8 Jul 2004)

A couple of questions:

Does anybody know if the report is available (preferably online)? I tried the DETE website (and elsewhere) and it doesn't seem to be there even though the press release is...

Does the report specifically mention this figure of 400,000 (new?) jobs over five years?

Does the report estimate how many of these new jobs will be filled by immigrants?

> I don't just mean Eastern European, I also mean an African influence.

Don't forget that the vast majority of immigrants come here from EU and EEA regions.


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## Prometheus2 (8 Jul 2004)

Go to www.independent.ie. You will have to register to get full access to the report.


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## Guest (8 Jul 2004)

Sorry - I meant the actual Enterprise Strategy Group report itself ("Ahead of the Curve: Ireland's Place in the Global Economy") described below and not the Indo report on this:

www.entemp.ie/press/2004/20040707.htm


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## tam (8 Jul 2004)

*.*

Why is it that it is assumed that immigration is a "good thing"? I think the anti-immigration side of the issue have a lot of problems with being associated with mindless racists granted, but there are at least an equal volume of mindless pro-immigration proponents. I'm so weary of seeing the knee-jerk "racist" response to anyone that has a negative comment to make on immigration.


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## shnaek (8 Jul 2004)

*Re: .*

I think anyone should be given the chance to come here and _earn_ a living. I think most would agree with that. It is handouts that people are against, but this isn't specifically a race issue.


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## Guest (8 Jul 2004)

*.*

> I'm so weary of seeing the knee-jerk "racist" response to anyone that has a negative comment to make on immigration.

Er, who (other than you) ever mentioned racism during this discussion...? :rolleyes


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## elderdog (8 Jul 2004)

*Re: .*

*Why is it that it is assumed that immigration is a "good thing"? *

And equally 

*Why is it that it is assumed that continued expansion of industrial economic activity is a "good thing"? *


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## tam (8 Jul 2004)

*tam*



> Er, who (other than you) ever mentioned racism during this discussion...?




Er, the first two posts are riddles with inferences of racism. 



> Maybe it was because it a 'white plug hole' and not a 'black one'





> there are still a lot of people in Ireland who see immigrants in this country as a plague in our society



Or maybe you are of the Bush school of semantics that the word "racism" has to be used for racism to have been brought up? 

Er.


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## Guest (8 Jul 2004)

*tam*

> Or maybe you are of the Bush school of semantics that the word "racism" has to be used for racism to have been brought up?

No. I just don't automatically knee-jerk assume that race is necessarily an issue when terms like "cultural integration" and "immigration" are mentioned as explained in more detail here:


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## tam (9 Jul 2004)

*tam*



> No. I just don't automatically knee-jerk assume that race is necessarily an issue when terms like "cultural integration" and "immigration" are mentioned



This is just plain silly. I provided you quotes from the first two posts on THIS thread. These posts are not about immigration of first world whites from Sweden and  Canada for crying out loud. Who EVER talks about "cultural integration" of first world whites into society?


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## Guest (9 Jul 2004)

*tam*

> This is just plain silly. 

You're entitled to your opinion but I disagree.

> Who EVER talks about "cultural integration" of first world whites into society?

What about such immigrants whose first language, customs, diet, rituals, religious beliefs/ethos, societal norms etc. are not those that prevail in the host country?


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## tam (9 Jul 2004)

*tam*

OK, but I really think we are trying to ignore the elephant in the corner here. Surely those "whose first language, customs, diet, rituals, religious beliefs/ethos, societal norms etc. are not those that prevail in the host country" would be usually identified in racial terms? I'm not even sure what you are contending anymore to be honest.


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## Guest (9 Jul 2004)

*tam*

> Surely those "whose first language, customs, diet, rituals, religious beliefs/ethos, societal norms etc. are not those that prevail in the host country" would be usually identified in racial terms?

Maybe an example would make it simpler for you. My wife currently works with a bloke from Turkey who might fit the sort of categorisation that I'm referring to. Race is not an issue in this case but the other stuff I mentioned above is.

> I'm not even sure what you are contending anymore to be honest.

Same simple point as I made in the other topic - race is not necessarily relevant when it comes to issues of immigration and race is not necessarily synonymous with nationality, ethnicity etc. This is not semantics. It is an important distinction to note and understand in order not to fall into the trap of miscategorisation of issues.


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## cobalt (12 Jul 2004)

*Ahead of the Curve: Ireland's place in the global economy*



> Does anybody know if the report is available (preferably online)? I tried the DETE website (and elsewhere) and it doesn't seem to be there even though the press release is...


[broken link removed]


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## Guest (12 Jul 2004)

*Ahead of the Curve: Ireland's place in the global economy*

Thanks cobalt.


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## Guest (12 Jul 2004)

Going back to the original post I've finally found the relevant section from the report in case anybody was still interested:



> Targeted Skilled Immigration Policy
> 
> As set out in Chapter 2, approximately 420,000 new workers will be required over the period 2001-2010. As available domestic sources are diminishing, Ireland will need to attract a considerable number of highly skilled immigrants. The enlargement of the EU should allow for most of Ireland’s immigration needs to be filled from within the EU. However it is likely that the demand for particular skills, for example, research skills, will not be fully satisfied by migration from within the EU. The demographic profile of most EU countries shows an even more acute shortage of young people entering the higher education system and almost all developed economies are actively seeking highly skilled immigrants. In trying to attract knowledge workers, we face intense competition from advanced economies, including other EU countries and the US. To succeed in this, Ireland will have to be seen as an attractive place to live and work, with a welcoming attitude to immigrants and a vibrant, diverse cultural life. For these reasons, there is a need for a planned, coherent immigration policy that is carefully managed and regulated and is consistent with the skills requirements of the economy.


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## tam (13 Jul 2004)

*,*



> Maybe an example would make it simpler for you. My wife currently works with a bloke from Turkey who might fit the sort of categorisation that I'm referring to. Race is not an issue in this case but the other stuff I mentioned above is.



Right. So you've found a man from Turkey who is not a Turk. So he's a Kurd then I presume? Otherwise he is of some statistically insignificant fraction of the population of Turkey and his existence as an immigrant from Turkey is anomalous. I still don't know what you are trying to say otherwise.


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## tam (13 Jul 2004)

*.*

Oh, and thanks for the effort but don't bother trying to make it simple for me, just figure out what you are talking about.


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## Guest (13 Jul 2004)

*.*

Perhaps if you explain what YOU understand by race it might save a bit of time?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race


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## Protocol (13 Jul 2004)

*bring them in*

I, for one, would welcome as many immigrant workers.

Sure we need more nurses, plumbers, doctors, tilers, blocklayers, software developers, physiotherapists, roofers, dentists and plasterers.

Be they from the EU15 countries, the new EU members, the USA, or Timbuktu, I don't care.

As long as they help with labour shortages and keep a lid on labour costs.

And as long as they don't cost the Irish taxpayer anything (other than the normal PRSI arrangements).

How we are going to house them will be tricky.


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## piggy (13 Jul 2004)

*Re: bring them in*

*Sure we need more...software developers*

Do we really need _*more*_ of us? I thought there was supposed to be a glut of us out there...working as waiters and stuff until the market picked up??

Anyway, aren't all of our jobs dissappearing to India?


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## Guest (13 Jul 2004)

*Re: bring them in*

>  I, for one, would welcome as many immigrant workers.

Fair enough but the original issue is, was or seemed to be about the Government putting in place a suitable immigration and induction/integration system to cater for the arrival of immigrants needed to fill the projected 420,000 new jobs over the next decade as opposed to whether or not these people were needed or welcome. However I think we got a bit sidetracked on this earlier!


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## Eddie (13 Jul 2004)

*a question*

"As long as they help with labour shortages and keep a lid on labour costs"

Does that include keeping down the cost of your labour Protocol?


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## Protocol (13 Jul 2004)

*I didn't ask for benchmarking*

I'm not greedy, I give grinds for well below market rates.

I am all for slower increases in wages.


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## Protocol (14 Jul 2004)

*integration*

Yes, integration is important (as Pym Fortyune stressed).

This means flexibility and a willingness to adapt from both sides.

It does not mean changing everything that is Irish just so that we don't offend anybody else.

Example: calls to get rid of the Angelus, "as we are a multicultural country now".  Well maybe we are moving that way are, but we are still a Christian country, so we should resist these calls and keep the Angelus.

This is just one small example of Irishness which should not be given up in a politically-correct inspired rush to be "multicultural".

I could go on, but I have a roll of film to collect.


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## Guest (14 Jul 2004)

*integration*

> It does not mean changing everything that is Irish just so that we don't offend anybody else.

Who said that we should?

> but we are still a Christian country, so we should resist these calls and keep the Angelus.
> This is just one small example of Irishness which should not be given up in a politically-correct inspired rush to be "multicultural".

I'm not a Christian and I don't think that makes me or any other non Christian Irish citizen any less Irish than any other citizen, whatever their religious beliefs. I personally would be happy for the Angelus to be dropped for example. In fact I would be happy for a much more complete secularisation (from all forms of religious belief) of Irish Government and society overall. But that's just my opinion and I'm probably still in a minority, at least for now. Anyway, that's another discussion altogether and probably irrelevant to the original subject of this topic...


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## Tizona (14 Jul 2004)

*Angelus*

If they build a mosque next door to you will you expect them to ban the broadcasting of the muslim Call to Prayer?

I'd appreciate a serious answer.


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## joesoapy (14 Jul 2004)

*Angelus*

Good call on the angelus

I was just laughing at it the other day 

Is it any wonder why Irish people are occasioanlly protrayed as devout Catholic weirdos on UK television

Not that I have an opinion on whether it should be dropeed or kept

But it is does come accross as a throw back to fifties Ireland


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## Bridget (14 Jul 2004)

*not expert on matters religious.......*

I believe the Angelus is a Catholic rather than Christian tradition.  I wonder how the Protestants feel about it? and the Irish Jews?

Personally amn't a Christian but quite like it..... and these days it's broadcast as a moment of reflection,  which is well worthwhile.  (And they got rid of that awful "Who farted?" sequence!)

Statues of the Virgin Mary littering hospitals and schools now do offend me.


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## Allah Akhbar (14 Jul 2004)

*Die Christians*

www.ogrish.com/ogrish-dot...ersion.wmv


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## Prometheus2 (14 Jul 2004)

*Angeles*

I agree with you Bridget. I would'nt be a big fan of statues of the Virgin Mary in schools myself. In fact I think religion and education should be kept seperate altogether. 

As for the Angeles I don't see any real problem. Im not a very religious person but if I happen to have RTE1 on at the time I would occasionaly use it as a brief moment to stop what Im doing and enjoy a minute of peace. In this day and age its not often we get a chance to do that.


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## Guest (14 Jul 2004)

*Angelus*

>  If they build a mosque next door to you will you expect them to ban the broadcasting of the muslim Call to Prayer?

As it happens, one of the planning conditions for the mosque in Clonskeagh was that they would not broadcast the call to prayer publicly. Oddly enough the Greek Orthodox church near where I live seems to be allowed to ring their bells and broadcast chants from time to time without any hassle. But, as the Angelus suggests, the rules in this country may be different for Christians.  

> As for the Angeles I don't see any real problem. Im not a very religious person but if I happen to have RTE1 on at the time I would occasionaly use it as a brief moment to stop what Im doing and enjoy a minute of peace. In this day and age its not often we get a chance to do that.

I don't see it as a BIG problem either but I would be happier to see it ditched rather than being retained. As individuals we can make time for reflection if we really want to and, in my opinion, should not have to depend on a largely atavistic and sectarian public signal to do so.


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## Tizona (14 Jul 2004)

*Angelus*



> But, as the Angelus suggests, the rules in this country may be different for Christians.



So what? Its a Christian country. Rules are different for Christians in Muslim countries too!


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## piggy (14 Jul 2004)

*Re: Angelus*

*So what? Its a Christian country.*

Once upon a time perhaps. We are now a muti-cultural society which supports and welcomes people of all denominations and religious beliefs.


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## Guest (14 Jul 2004)

*Re: Angelus*

> So what? Its a Christian country. 

In what way precisely? I know that the majority of citizens are (or at least claim to be) practicing Christians and that the  the Constitution mentions God (not a specifically Christian concept or belief) several times and This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ once (in the preamble and not the Constitution proper) but, in spite of these, I personally don't consider Ireland to be a Christian state as such.

> Rules are different for Christians in Muslim countries too!

So what? That is irrelevant to my points. Some other countries do all sorts of other things and it doesn't necessarily mean that we should reciprocate. :\


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## Eddie (14 Jul 2004)

*really?*

" We are now a muti-cultural society which supports and welcomes people of all denominations and religious beliefs. "

So why should a muslim be offended if they hear the Angelus on TV twice a day for a minute?.If I went to one of the many Muslim countries I'd expect to see and hear signs of their religion.The vast majority of this country are catholic so its not incorrect to call Ireland a christian society.


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## piggy (14 Jul 2004)

*Re: really?*

*I'd expect to see and hear signs of their religion*

*The vast majority of this country are catholic so its not incorrect to call Ireland a christian society*

As <blank> has already alluded to...we are not a Christian _state_, despite the fact that a large number of people in this country are Catholics.
What does "christian society" mean to you?


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## Tizona (14 Jul 2004)

*Christianity*

Even if nobody in Ireland went to mass, even if the church or Christ were removed from the constitution, this country will always be a Christian country by the simple fact that its entire value system, parliamentary system, legal system, economic system and its very history define us as a Christian - Western - Democratic society...and like it or not thats what we are and nothing will ever change it.

In point of fact though, even if the contributors to this board are all non Christians, you represent a tiny minority of the population of the country. You are disproportionately represented here, so don't make the mistake of congratulating yourself on the removal of Christian values from Irish society in general just yet, or any time in the near future. 
We are far from it.


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## Guest (14 Jul 2004)

*Christianity*

> this country will always be a Christian country by the simple fact that its entire value system, parliamentary system, legal system, economic system and its very history define us as a Christian - Western - Democratic society...and like it or not thats what we are and nothing will ever change it.

If you think that nothing ever changes in this respect consider the fact that Ireland was not always as it is today - e.g. pre and post Christian pagan influences, Brehon law etc. - and some of these influences still inform our society as it stands today.

> In point of fact though, even if the contributors to this board are all non Christians, you represent a tiny minority of the population of the country. You are disproportionately represented here, so don't make the mistake of congratulating yourself on the removal of Christian values from Irish society in general just yet, or any time in the near future. 

Nobody claimed that (a) most or all of the AAM community are non Christian (b) that we thought of ourselves as some sort of influential group (minority or otherwise) (c) were were congratulating ourselves over the secularisation of Irish society. I simply stated some of my personal views but I certainly don't expect that everybody here or elsewhere agrees with me.

> We are far from it.

I wouldn't say that we are far from it and some of us live in hope...


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## piggy (14 Jul 2004)

*Re: Christianity*

*even if the contributors to this board are all non Christians, you represent a tiny minority of the population of the country...don't make the mistake of congratulating yourself on the removal of Christian values from Irish society in general just yet*

Eh...where do you get this opinion from? Was anyone congratulating anyone??

I'm a Christian, in that I was baptised Roman Catholic by Roman Catholic parents. I think what you mean to say is that _perhaps_ not everyone who contributes to this board are practising Catholics, or as God fearing as their parents, or  Christian.
Practising your faith is something very much on the decline in this country, particularly prevelant in the Roman Catholic Church.
I'd hazard a guess that even a great number of practising Christians in this country would be in favour of separating Church and State more and more. But...we've gone way off topic here.


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## Tizona (14 Jul 2004)

*Christian values*

I'm afraid my point went right over both your heads.

This has got *absolutely nothing* to do with how many of the population practise a christian religion.

Your repeated statements to the effect that christianity is dead or dying in Ireland (or failing that, that it would be a good thing if it were) do not lead me to believe you are anything *but* self-congratulatory, and self-deluded.

Its clearly inferred, and clearly wrong.


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## piggy (14 Jul 2004)

*Re: Christian values*

*Your repeated statements to the effect that christianity is dead or dying in Ireland* 

No one stated that it is dead. I stated that _*practicing*_ Catholicism is on the decline. This is not self-congratulatory, merely a reasonably well known fact.

*lead me to believe you are anything but self-congratulatory, and self-deluded*

Self-deluded? Where's the delusion?

*Its clearly inferred, and clearly wrong.*
How is what clearly wrong? The self-delusion that you haven't qualified yet?


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## Guest (14 Jul 2004)

*Christian values*

> I'm afraid my point went right over both your heads.

If it did maybe the problem doesn't lie with us? I don't really undestand your ostensible correlation of Western and Democratic with Christian to be honest. I do understand that Christianity in its different forms has been the dominant religion in Europe for centuries now but (a) it wasn't always that way and (b) I don't see how that necessarily influences (with the exception of the earlier constitutional stuff that I mentioned) the legal basis for a state such as ours.

> Your repeated statements to the effect that christianity is dead or dying in Ireland (or failing that, that it would be a good thing if it were) do not lead me to believe you are anything but self-congratulatory, and self-deluded

Whose repeated statemetents? I personally don't care what religion (if any) people choose to practice or how many of them do so but I do strongly favour a complete separation of church/religious ethos and state. I am not anti-religion. I am pro secularism.


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## Tizona (15 Jul 2004)

*Christianity*

Do I really have to spell it out?

Oh well, here goes.

Practising *Catholics* may be on the wane - if you use church attendance as the yardstick - but _Christian_ *belief, values and tradition* are not on the wane. They are integral with our Irishness. I am not a practising catholic, but I hold deeply founded christian values - because I was born and brought up as an Irishman and its a deeply rooted part of Irish - and European - culture. I'm proud of my Irish, Christian, Democratic, Secular, Western Culture.

Incidentally, to say that Christian culture in europe has had no influence on 'the legal basis of the state' is deeply myopic.


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## Guest (15 Jul 2004)

*Christianity*

> but I hold deeply founded christian values - because I was born and brought up as an Irishman and its a deeply rooted part of Irish - and European - culture. I'm proud of my Irish, Christian, Democratic, Secular, Western Culture.

Who's to say that many of the same values don't emanate from secular belief systems such as social democracy and humanism, for example, that have also been widely held throughout Europe for the past few centuries? To say that Christian culture holds sway throughout Europe is as logical as saying that idolatry does just because the Greeks and Romans influenced us so much... :\ 

> Incidentally, to say that Christian culture in europe has had no influence on 'the legal basis of the state' is deeply myopic.

That is not what I said.


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## Tizona (15 Jul 2004)

*Christianity*



> Who's to say that many of the same values don't emanate from secular belief systems such as social democracy and humanism, for example, that have also been widely held throughout Europe for the past few centuries?



I don't see Social Democrats as necessarily incompatible with Christian Culture....except perhaps in their most extreme versions. Where in Western Europe do the extreme Left hold sway in government? Nowhere.
Likewise with Humanism. 
They are extreme flavours of thought that are generally on the fringes of popular mainstream politics.
One could argue that Humanism only exists as a mirror image of the Christian culture which defines it and gives it reason to live. It too is therefore a byproduct of Christian culture!

Anyhow, a few hundred years of rebel thinking is of no consequence when set beside two thousand years of Christian culture. Like Communism and Naziism, they are here today, gone tomorrow. Christian culture flows on.


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## piggy (15 Jul 2004)

*Re: Christianity*

And here was me thinking we weren't allowed talk about religion anymore!!  

*I hold deeply founded christian values* 

Would those be  type of Christian values?

_*"It really sickens and saddens me to see Irish people swallow the lies they've been fed by the liberal media about Islam. They have lost their souls to the point of grovelling after the Koran and Muhammed, while at the same time rejecting This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ and the Bible."*_


They sound very fundamentalist to me if you don't mind me saying so and nothing like the Christianity I was taught as a child.


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## joesoapy (15 Jul 2004)

*Re: Christianity*

Immigrants to fill vacancies?

Remember


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## Tizona (15 Jul 2004)

*Christianity*

Why don't you reference that quote to the thread it came from? It was part of a discussion where you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity. I stand fully by the comments in that context. 

Just to clarify one other thing.
I have no difficulty whatever with immigration per se, but the buzz word 'multiculturalism' is proven to have been a sham and a failure in many other european countries. Not least the UK where there are distinct ethic/religious divides in many cities, and race relations are deteriorating rapidly.

The real answer is not multiculturalism but *integration*. The British have belatedly realised it with Blunketts introduction of basic legislation requiring aspiring immigrants to learn english, learn some British history, and swear allegiance to the state they wish to adopt. 
All absolutely obvious and necessary first steps to an integrated society.

It does not mean an immigrant having to give up their culture and ignore its benefits to the host nation, but it is not acceptable that immigrants isolate and ghettoise themselves in a closeted culture that turns in on itself and comes to resent its host culture.


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## piggy (15 Jul 2004)

*Re: Christianity*

I'm sorry...I don't mean to hijack this debate. If you could just clarify this comment I'll move on.

*you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity*

Where exactly did I praise and glorify Islam and denigrate and attack Catholicism and Christianity?

And yes...I did reference the thread those comments came from. The link is on the word *'these'*.


Getting back to topic...

*It does not mean an immigrant having to give up their culture and ignore its benefits to the host nation, but it is not acceptable that immigrants isolate and ghettoise themselves in a closeted culture that turns in on itself and comes to resent its host culture*

Can you provide some examples of this in present day Ireland. What group of immigrants are you referring to exactly?


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## Guest (15 Jul 2004)

*Re: Christianity*

> Anyhow, a few hundred years of rebel thinking is of no consequence when set beside two thousand years of Christian culture. Like Communism and Naziism, they are here today, gone tomorrow. Christian culture flows on.

Tizona - some might justifiably claim that the system that holds most influence over Europe and most of the rest of the world these days is free market capitalism - a system that is often at odds with Christian values and beliefs. I have a strong suspicion that Mammon means more to many, many people in their everyday lives than Christ regardless of what hypocritical claims that might make to the contrary. Christianity (as with other movements and belief systems) have obviously influenced us and our nation but to say that we are a "Christian country" now just doesn't make sense to me.


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## Tizona (16 Jul 2004)

*Immigration*



> Can you provide some examples of this in present day Ireland. What group of immigrants are you referring to exactly?



All of them! It is a common trait among immigrant peoples everwhere (including the Irish in the US) that they tend to ghettoise from - or be ghettoised by - the dominant host culture. The Irish in the US eventually integrated because they had much in common with the host culture, such as language and Christianity. Note however that they also managed to retain a sense of their Irishness in the process.

Immigrants from Asia and Africa often share neither language, nor religion with their host. Their culture is alien to the hostand they feel threatened by it. The result is the kind of ghettoisation that has occurred in places like Leeds/Bradford in the UK, where white faces are rarely seen in many areas, the population frequently doesn't speak english (and doesn't want to), and they have more loyalty to their native land than their adopted country. These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation.         

Its too early yet to see how this is going to pan out in Ireland, but if we ignore it and bury our heads in the sand like the British did...we'll eventually have the same problems. Before you sing the praises of multiculturalism, I'd like to know how many Nigerians you are personally friendly with? How many Chinese natives you go out for pints with? How many Lithuanians or Romanians you invite over for dinner on a regular basis?

<blank> I think you are in denial, and you are welcome to your opinion. We'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## Guest (16 Jul 2004)

*Immigration*

> <blank> I think you are in denial

Yes - I deny that Ireland is a "Christian country" because I don't see any hard evidence that this is the case. Seems a rational standpoint to me.


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## piggy (16 Jul 2004)

*Re: Immigration*

*The Irish in the US eventually integrated because they had much in common with the host culture, such as language and Christianity*
The host culture? The Native American Indians? Modern day America was formed by immigrants. They were all  immigrants weren't they?

*These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation.* 
What communities and what extremist leaders are you referring to exactly?

*I'd like to know how many Nigerians you are personally friendly with? How many Chinese natives you go out for pints with? How many Lithuanians or Romanians you invite over for dinner on a regular basis?*
None, none, none and none. Neither am I particularly friendly with any Limerick-men, Kerry-men, Clare-men...the list goes on. I fail to see the point here. Just because I haven't had any Kerry-men over to dinner recently doesn't mean squat. 

Finally, when you make a claim like this...
_*you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity*_
...it's common courtesy to either back it up when asked or else withdraw it.


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## Tizona (16 Jul 2004)

*Immigration*

Piggy if you insist on being stupid I can't be bothered wasting my time on you. The host culture in America was American Indians? The Indian Wars ended in 1890, and the American Indian population on the east coast was extinct 50 years before that - when the Irish were arriving in famine ships on the eastern seaboard (where they mostly remained). 
It was called the Wild West...not the Wild East.

I also see now that your words about immigration are just empty expressions of Political Correctness without a grain of honesty or meaning behind them.


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## Guest (16 Jul 2004)

*Immigration*

Tizona, a mhúinteoir - are you not going to spank me too? I'm feeling a bit left out.


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## piggy (16 Jul 2004)

*Re: Immigration*

The Native American Indian remark was tongue in cheek.

*I also see now that your words about immigration are just empty expressions of Political Correctness without a grain of honesty or meaning behind them*

I find myself having to ask this a lot these days. What do you base this on? 
When I'm debating something with someone else I debate the *specific points* they're making, while trying not to make spurious remarks with no grounding. Can you point to some *specific comments* I've made which leads you to this conclusion and perhaps answer some of my queries?

While you're at it, and for the third time, can you back up this claim please or withdraw it?
_*you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity*_


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## Tizona (16 Jul 2004)

*Piggy*

Go on piggy admit it, you said it, or your alter persona did. 

Hurry up,its nearly 5PM Friday, better get a swift retort in before you hit the pub. Oink Oink.


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## piggy (16 Jul 2004)

*Re: Piggy*

I don't feel the need to use alter 'unregistered' egos Tizona.

*Oink Oink.* 
Wow...you got me with that one.

Whenever you feel like it you can either back up your claim or withdraw it. 
While you're at it you might like to actually debate the points I've made...unless all you're interested in is attacking me?


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## Tizona (16 Jul 2004)

*Piggy*

Thatsallowed, given you like the odd joke yourself.

1 minute left.....be quick....


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## piggy (17 Jul 2004)

*Re: Piggy*

Tizona,

Like I said, whenever you feel like backing up or retracting those comments go ahead. Otherwise your points can't be taken very seriously can they?

You might want to reply to some of the questions I asked you as well.


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## Tizona (17 Jul 2004)

*Piggy*

But how can I take *you* seriously now piggy?

If you think making a joke in your comments is OK but nobody else can, then I suggest either you're taking yourself either too seriously or you should be more consistent in your tone.

See ya.


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## piggy (17 Jul 2004)

*Re: Piggy*

*If you think making a joke in your comments is OK but nobody else can, then I suggest either you're taking yourself either too seriously or you should be more consistent in your tone.*

Ho hum...if this is how you want to play your game then so be it.

As I said, I made one tongue in cheek comment because you mentioned 'host culture'. 

So, was this a joke then too?
_*you and other posters (including a muslim contributor) were praising and glorifying Islam, while at the same time denigrating and attacking Catholicism and Christianity*_ 

I don't know why you want to continue with this tit-for-tat. All I'm asking you to do is clarify that point. If you can't clarify it then it can only be viewed as a specific attack on me for no good reason other than you don't like some of the points I make.

If you want to take this debate off into this little game then that's your choice. I don't see what you gain by it.

Choosing not do, or not being able to answer questions like this...
*"What communities and what extremist leaders are you referring to exactly?"*...also raises suspicions about the motives behind the point you're making.


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## Paddy Irishman (18 Jul 2004)

*Piggy*

Piggy he has a point. You tend to throw in red herrings to all your posts I've noticed.

That retort about not needing to befriend immigrants because you don't need to befriend Kerrymen is an example. There is no comparison in the situation of a native Irish person in his own land, and a foreign immigrant with no friends in a strange country.
I guess you were just 'joking' again eh?

I see Tizonas angle. The country is full of PC liberals who cry about immigrants not getting a fair crack, and travellers being discriminated against...but if you put them next to a traveller in a pub they'd move to the far end of the bar to avoid them. Pure hypocrisy.

As to the Christian Culture issue...I see your position as comparable to the Hollywood bosses who told Mel Gibson the Passion would never sell. Then it was the biggest hit of the year. You underestimate peoples core belief.

Just wait 'til Il Papa visits. I bet there'll be major surprise at the enormous turnout he gets. We'll judge then, eh?


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## Id (18 Jul 2004)

*Passion of the Christ*

Paddy Irishman said
"As to the Christian Culture issue...I see your position as comparable to the Hollywood bosses who told Mel Gibson the Passion would never sell. Then it was the biggest hit of the year. You underestimate peoples core belief."

What a stupid comment. It had nothing to do with core beliefs that the film was so popular.


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## Guest (18 Jul 2004)

*Piggy*

> Just wait 'til Il Papa visits. I bet there'll be major surprise at the enormous turnout he gets. We'll judge then, eh? 

So what. The Red Hot Chili Peppers attracted c. 2.5% of the population of Ireland recently. It doesn't necessarily mean that they all want to surf and take smack. :rolleyes 

> What a stupid comment. It had nothing to do with core beliefs that the film was so popular. 

Exactly. Myself and the wife went to see it because we're interested in the historical figure of JC but don't believe in his divinity for example...


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## Paddy Irishman (18 Jul 2004)

*The Passion*

Oh. My mistake.
You two obviously speak for the hundreds of thousands (millions?) who went to the movie.

Who could possibly argue with such sages as you?


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## piggy (18 Jul 2004)

*Re: Piggy*

*As to the Christian Culture issue...I see your position as comparable to the Hollywood bosses who told Mel Gibson the Passion would never sell. Then it was the biggest hit of the year. You underestimate peoples core belief.*

Core belief? 
Is that why 'The Last Temptation of Christ' was so popular...even though it was seen as being highly blasphemous by the Catholic Church and Christians alike?
Or perhaps it's the same reason that Dan Brown's books are so popular, even though he tells stories which discuss Mary Magdalene as the Holy Grail.
It's a very simplistic argument to suggest that people flocked to see a film which had massive media hype, and was highly controvserial even before it was released out of some core belief!

*You tend to throw in red herrings to all your posts I've noticed.*
Can you give me some examples please?

*That retort about not needing to befriend immigrants because you don't need to befriend Kerrymen is an example. There is no comparison in the situation of a native Irish person in his own land, and a foreign immigrant with no friends in a strange country.
I guess you were just 'joking' again eh?*
No, I wasn't joking. I thought the point that Tizona was making was rather simplistic and was highlighting that fact.
The idea of integration as opposed to multi-culturism is one thing. Personally I don't think it would work. There are many groups of peoples in this country who by and large congregate amongst themselves. This has much to do with human beings feeling comfortable amongst their own as it does with religion or other factors.
There are large Jewish sections of Dublin. Nobody ghettoised them in those areas. They usually tend to live cloe by to Synagogues surprisingly enough!
Similarly, there are, relatively speaking, large Muslim communities in certain parts of Dublin's city centre. There are also pockets of other immigrant (or otherwise) communities in other parts of the city. By and large we get on well together. Where the problem really lies, and why integration would not solve problems is where people view these people as being different. Your stereotypical "they're taking our jobs" type view. This is what causes bad feelings amongst communities. Get rid of the inherent racism in Irish society and you rid the need for ideas such as integration.

*The country is full of PC liberals who cry about immigrants not getting a fair crack*
There is an air of veiled racism in this comment. This would suggest that you feel the opposite?

*but if you put them next to a traveller in a pub they'd move to the far end of the bar to avoid them. Pure hypocrisy.*
I see, so you think you speak for everyone in Irish society do you? There are plenty of people who walk by homeless people on their way to and from work everyday. There are always some individuals who give them the time of day, buy them some food etc...
I live in a typical middle class area of South Dublin. Within a radius of two square miles there are three permanent halting sites, all well run, and there has never been any problems between communities. The travelling community in Ireland has sometimes received a lot of flak. Sometimes there is justification for it as there are some very rough elements in their communities, but sometimes without reason. I have witnessed this myself. And, I have also witnessed first hand the destructive nature that bad elements in these travelling communities can have first hand on my own community, when a large group of mainy overseas travellers moved into the land surrounding the Dodder river in Rathfarnham. The Gardai had to be called in virtually every night. They caused a huge amount of damage and litteraly turned the place into a dumping ground.

So, getting back to integration. Should travellers be forced to integrate with the rest of us? I don't think so personally.

*I see Tizonas angle*
I don't I'm afriad. What I do see are veiled references to "extremeist leaders" which leads me to believe that he has another agenda which he won't spit out.


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## Guest (19 Jul 2004)

*Re: Piggy*

> You two obviously speak for the hundreds of thousands (millions?) who went to the movie.

No - the words "for example" above were a clue to the fact that I was merely speaking for ourselves... 

> Who could possibly argue with such sages as you?

People who don't feel the need to resort to sarcastic one liners perhaps? At least Tizona attempts to argue his/her case for example...


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## reet (19 Jul 2004)

*tizona*



> Immigrants from Asia and Africa often share neither language, nor religion with their host. Their culture is alien to the hostand they feel threatened by it. The result is the kind of ghettoisation that has occurred in places like Leeds/Bradford in the UK, where white faces are rarely seen in many areas, the population frequently doesn't speak english (and doesn't want to), and they have more loyalty to their native land than their adopted country. These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation.



Hear, hear! The UK, and US are where we need to look for an image of things to come. Bradford is an incredible place, everyone should go there at least once before rabbiting on about integration.
I am far less optimistic than Tizona however, I think this future is inevitable rather than a warning. Watch this space.


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## piggy (19 Jul 2004)

*Re: tizona*

*I think this future is inevitable rather than a warning*
Care to expand on that a little? What is inevitable in Ireland?

All I see are some veiled remarks backed up with little or no fact:
*they feel threatened by it* Is there any evidence to suggest this?
*where white faces are rarely seen in many areas*
There are places like this in Dublin too right now. Does this mean anything necessarily?
*they have more loyalty to their native land than their adopted country*
Is there any evidence to back this theory up? Even if this was the case it isn't necessarily a bad thing. If I went to live in the US I'm sure I would have more loyalty to my native country than my newly adopted one.
*These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation.*
Seeing as Tizona seems to be unwilling to discuss this comment perhaps you could fill in the blanks?

*The UK, and US are where we need to look for an image of things to come*
Whereabouts in the US exactly?


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## Paddy Irishman (19 Jul 2004)

*Red Herrings*

There you go again Piggy, throwing out your Red Herrings. 

I'm rapidly beginning to see why people drop out of these threads when you get involved. You have the tiresome attitude of a petulant child.

Your style is of the 7 year old in the playground '...tell me why...prove it....you're a liar...did not...yah boo sucks...'

Grow up.


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## Brain (19 Jul 2004)

*Piggy*

Yeah, and don't forget the "moderator I think you should close this thread right now" crap.

Translated into 7 year old language = "Give me MY ball back, and I'm going to tell teacher on you...sniff..."


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## piggy (19 Jul 2004)

*Re: Red Herrings*

*There you go again Piggy, throwing out your Red Herrings*
What red herrings?

*You have the tiresome attitude of a petulant child.*
You mean because I ask people to clarify what they're saying or respond to specific points they make which is what a debate is supposed to be about?

Maybe you could both debate the specific points as opposed to attacking me for no good reason?


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## reet (19 Jul 2004)

*...*



> Care to expand on that a little? What is inevitable in Ireland?



Sure, but I would also like to enter it on the record that you are playing silly buggers. You know exactly what I mean unless you are a fool.

The US and UK have many markedly divided areas where society has boken apart on purely racial fault lines. Bradford being one of them. I think this ghettoisation and eventual segmentation is inevitable. In fact why am I stating the obvious? you know what I mean, I am just reahashing what has already been well put by Tizona. You seem to think that becuase I am not painting a eutopic picture of racial harmony that there is something fundamentally objectionable about my comments. Grow up indeed.


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## piggy (19 Jul 2004)

*Re: ...*

*You know exactly what I mean unless you are a fool.*
It's difficult to debate anything unless people are willing to lay their views on the table without others having to guess what they're talking about. 

*I think this ghettoisation and eventual segmentation is inevitable. In fact why am I stating the obvious? you know what I mean, I am just reahashing what has already been well put by Tizona*
Okay...so segmentation is possibly inevitable in some circumstances. But we have segmentation in Ireland as I have already pointed out. Has it led to anything bad or wrong?
I don't _know what you mean_ unless you say it. What are you afraid of saying?

*You seem to think that becuase I am not painting a eutopic picture of racial harmony that there is something fundamentally objectionable about my comments*
No...not necessarily. My remarks were in relation to Tizona's comments. I asked you two specific questions on your points.

*Care to expand on that a little? What is inevitable in Ireland?*
(which you have answered)
and
_*Whereabouts in the US exactly?*_


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## reet (19 Jul 2004)

*...*

I refuse to pander to your childish notions of how a debate should be constructed any further.



> Whereabouts in the US exactly?



My response to this was removed by a moderator.


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## piggy (19 Jul 2004)

*Re: ...*

*I refuse to pander to your childish notions of how a debate should be constructed any further.*

Fine, if you refuse to acknowledge that a debate should be based upon individual and specific points being made and qualified then there is little point in debating this subject with me.


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## ClubMan (19 Jul 2004)

*Re: ...*

*My response to this was removed by a moderator.*

It was deleted because it was simply an insult/attack on another poster in contravention of the posting guidelines.


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## Tizona (19 Jul 2004)

*Piggy*



> But we have segmentation in Ireland as I have already pointed out. Has it led to anything bad or wrong?



It is bad in itself. That should be obvious to any sane person. Or are you saying ghettoes are a good thing. It may not have caused race relations problems ...yet...just give it time.

Are you for real, asking for examples of the of racial ghettoisation in the US? Or is that just another Red Herring meant to keep the rest of us typing answers to your bullshit instead of dealing directly and honestly with the facts.

American Ghettoes:

Harlem, NY; [broken link removed]

South Central Los Angeles 1965;  [broken link removed]

Los Angeles 1992; 



> *Two Centuries of Race Riots in the USA*
> 
> Ref: Encyclopedia: List of riots
> 
> ...


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## piggy (19 Jul 2004)

*Re: Piggy*

*Or are you saying ghettoes are a good thing. It may not have caused race relations problems ...yet...just give it time.*
No...I'm not saying that ghettoes are a good thing at all. I'm trying to focus specifically on Ireland. What I'm saying is that multi-culturalism and lack of immigrant integration does not necessarily equate to ghettoism. 

*Are you for real, asking for examples of the of racial ghettoisation in the US? Or is that just another Red Herring meant to keep the rest of us typing answers to your bullshit instead of dealing directly and honestly with the facts.*
I was looking for examples of immigrant ghettoism actually. Most black American ghettos consist of individuals who are as American as Apple Pie. They are not immigrants, nor were their parents. Perhaps comparing American racial problems with Irish ones isn't really a fair comparison, considering racial history in that country?
Do you know what half of those race riots were about? Would it be fair to put the LA riots after the Rodney King beating in there too as an example comparable to future Irish problems?

Maybe you could keep your comments civil in future if that's not too hard? 

Perhaps you might, seeing as you've rejoined the debate, clarify or withdraw the specific comments you made about me which I've asked you about on numerous occasions?


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## Tizona (19 Jul 2004)

*Piggy*

You're like a broken record.


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## piggy (19 Jul 2004)

*Re: Piggy*

*You're like a broken record.* 
Does that add anything to the debate? I keep asking you and will continue to keep asking because you refuse to clarify that remark. I wouldn't have to continuously repeat myself were you willing to do this. 

I see you've also chosen to ignore my points in relation to ghettoism in the US not being a realistic marker of future racial divides in Ireland.


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## Brain (19 Jul 2004)

*Piggy*



> What I'm saying is that multi-culturalism and lack of immigrant integration does not necessarily equate to ghettoism.



Piggy you're great at demanding backup references and schoolboy proofs of every comment by others, yet you come out with an unfounded piece of pure opinion like the above and expect us to take it as gospel.

Taking a leaf out of your own book then I'd like you to go away now and provide us with a few *factual references* proving (contrary to the documented examples in every  western country that has experienced mass immigration) that ghettoisation and its associated problems of alienation, poverty and prejudice, do not automatically go hand in hand with unchecked immigration and failed multi-culturalism.

Go ahead...references please, we're waiting.


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## piggy (19 Jul 2004)

*Re: Piggy*

*Taking a leaf out of your own book then I'd like you to go away now and provide us with a few factual references proving (contrary to the documented examples in every western country that has experienced mass immigration) that ghettoisation and its associated problems of alienation, poverty and prejudice, do not automatically go hand in hand with unchecked immigration and failed multi-culturalism.*

I can nearly taste the venom in your post Brain. 

We're not talking about "unchecked immigration". I never once mentioned having unchecked immigration. Where is the link between unchecked immigration and having a multi-cultural society? The two do not necessarily go hand in hand.

You want factual references that immigration will not turn into ghettoism in Ireland. 
What I've been saying all along is that multi-culturism does not necessarily relate to ghettoism. The key word is _*necessarily*_.
I don't like to answer a question with a question but in this case the question is in itself an answer. Where are the Immigrant ghettos in Ireland? Surely it's logical to provide evidence *of* them first rather than trying to prove that there are none.

I might add that I don't necessarily think that it's an impossibility that ghettos could or might exist in the future. We've become side-tracked somewhat. I merely think that 'integration' as a whole solution is not altogether realistic in solving racial divides and inherent racism in this country in my opinion.


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## agh (20 Jul 2004)

*P*

Grass is not necessarily green. If I buy a lottery ticket I won't necessarily lose. Jumping out af a 10th floor window won't necessarily kill you.

Piggy if you ever manage to provide worthwhile evidence for any hypothesis at all please make it the last on my list at your ealiest convenience.


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## Brain (20 Jul 2004)

*QED*

It is becoming patently clear Piggy, you are a 'Contrarian' and an empty headed Sophist. 

You'll endlessly argue the toss over semantics without ever getting a clear point across. You trivialise every debate with stupid demands for 'proofs' of the most obvious facts, and I've yet to see you produce a fact to back up your position. If you have a position...

I can't discern what the hell it is exactly.


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## piggy (20 Jul 2004)

*Re: P*

*It is becoming patently clear Piggy, you are a 'Contrarian' and an empty headed Sophist*

I won't bother stooping to childish name calling like you. Rather I'll deal with the point you were trying to make in-between the childish taunting.

*You'll endlessly argue the toss over semantics without ever getting a clear point across. You trivialise every debate with stupid demands for 'proofs' of the most obvious facts, and I've yet to see you produce a fact to back up your position. If you have a position...

I can't discern what the hell it is exactly.*

Can you not? That says more perhaps about your skills to understand the thrust of what I've been saying than anything else.

I don't argue endlessly over semantics. This sub-thread all began with this comment from Tizona...

_*Immigrants from Asia and Africa often share neither language, nor religion with their host. Their culture is alien to the hostand they feel threatened by it. The result is the kind of ghettoisation that has occurred in places like Leeds/Bradford in the UK, where white faces are rarely seen in many areas, the population frequently doesn't speak english (and doesn't want to), and they have more loyalty to their native land than their adopted country. These communities soon become alien to the rest of the nation, and are easy prey to extremist leaders who play on their sense of isolation and victimisation*_

I have pointed out in many posts here the problems I have with these comments and instaed of answering my reasonable questions Tizona has continually shyed away from the point. Then we have other posters saying...'you know what I mean'!!

I take quite a rounded view on the subject of immigration. It's a complex issue. My point (the one I have continuously been making in post after post) is that it is not merely a simple matter of integrating immigrants into society thus doing away with ghettos. 
Firstly, no one has provided this debate with *ANY* credible evidence that there *are* any immigrant ghettos in Ireland. I don't need to provide evidence that there *aren't* to prove my point!


*You trivialise every debate with stupid demands for 'proofs' of the most obvious facts*
What obvious facts? What are they...these unspoken facts that you are referring to that others seem scared to say? I've been bombarded with evidence that there are Black American ghettos in America and that there have been numerous race riots over the past century in the US. What has that got to do with the potential rise of immigrant ghettos developing in Ireland?
I've provided concrete evidence of non-Roman Catholic communities already living in relative harmony with the rest of Irish society yet being very much segragated in terms of where they live. I haven't seen any ghettos. That doesn't mean to suggest that there aren't any racial issues to be dealt with in Ireland right now. There are.

However, I'm highly suspicious of some of Tizona's comments...which is where this debate kicked off. Perhaps you agree with him Brain and are afraid of all those "extremeist leaders" that we need to put a stop to? Or perhaps you recognise that dealing with immigrants in terms of working toward some sort of racial harmony in Ireland in the coming years has as much to do with our treatment of them as it does with proper immigration control.

I've had to ask the same questions over and over because no one seems willing to answer them for me....resorting instead to petty name calling and trying to rile me. It says a lot more about their ability to think through the argument and perhaps their own prejudices.


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## captain quencher (20 Jul 2004)

*P*

Piggy you are a panic! I can't believe anyone can be as utterly effing clueless as you seem to be. I'm surprised you've managed to survive let alone land a cushy internet browsing job.

Btw, it's hard to figure out which is more galling: your seeming obliviousness to the untenability of your own position or your persistant martyred tone when you are not in the midst of one of your wild agreement-orgies.

Live long and prosper.


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## piggy (20 Jul 2004)

*captain quencher*

What a fantastic argument. You really showed me. Please point out what is clueless in any of my points...unless of course you're just trolling because you have nothing better to do?


On a more general note I see this debate sliding rapidly downhill because all the piggy haters come out of the woodwork. It's a shame that people can't argue issues without resorting to petty name calling and trolling in some ambitious bid to usurp another posters point of view It's also possibly a good reason, in my opinion, to only allow registered users to debate in LOS. 
I can at least stand here and defend every point I make without logging in as some new unregistered user every five minutes to toss some chlidish slurs at a poster because of his viewpoint on any given subject. If you have an issue with something I've said then point it out and I'll gladly clarify it for you.


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## gameovermangameover (20 Jul 2004)

*orey-eyed and porcine*



> I can at least stand here and defend every point I make ... If you have an issue with something I've said then point it out and I'll gladly clarify it for you.



Riotous!

There should be a "Famous Quotes" thread for classics like this.


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## joesoapy (20 Jul 2004)

*Piggy supporter (sometimes)*

You seem to be on your own at present against about 5 of them (or one using different names, I don't know)

But to try and discuss properly, I would like to put one point accross

I know that there is many communities in Ireland that maybe do not integrate to a large extent but I feel there is a real possibility of future "immigrant" ghetoes forming

Most of the existing communities are either better off of seen to be better off
Most of the current immigrats are percived to be spongers 
(I am not saying they are or are not, I have no evidence) but that is the perception

In recent years in Ireland there has developed a classist system, I feel
10-15 years ago no matter how much money people had they deemed themselves to be working class, and down to earth
Now, no matter how little money people have they deem themselves (and their expensive credit-lifestyle) to be a middle-class lifestyle
Therefore no one wants an "immigrant" living next door or on their street

The current set of people coming to this country tend to be living in communities (which is neither good nor bad) but unfortunately the areas generally tend to be the areas that are looked down on by some people

As a result there is a strong possibility that these areas could become ghettoised


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## piggy (20 Jul 2004)

*Re: Piggy supporter (sometimes)*

*You seem to be on your own at present against about 5 of them* 

I've no problem being out on my own in a debate. What I do have a problem with is the childish slurs that they're (he's) using as an argument, due to a lack of any credible point.

*Most of the current immigrats are percived to be spongers 
(I am not saying they are or are not, I have no evidence) but that is the perception*
It is the perception by some...I'm not pointing my finger at you at all Joe...but it is very often the same mentality that says 'they're taking our jobs from us'. This is one of the most important issues we need to address in this country.

*The current set of people coming to this country tend to be living in communities (which is neither good nor bad) but unfortunately the areas generally tend to be the areas that are looked down on by some people*
This is quite true. I can only speak about Dublin because I don't know what the situation is in country towns and cities. The thing to bear in mind right now is that those immigrants who are moving into the less salubrious parts of Dublin are living side by side with existing resident Irish people. How we manage the situation from a logistical point of view will determine whether we have immigrant ghettos in 20 years time or not. Some people might argue that certain parts of Dublin are already ghettos...so perhaps we should be focusing on bringing up the standard of some parts of the city so that we don't have a situation where ghettos can develop.


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## Tizona (28 Jul 2004)

*Failed Multiculturalism*

Just when you thought it was safe to go back on Letting Off Steam...

Interesting article in last Sundays Times. Trevor McDonalds views on multiculturalism seem to be at odds with Piggys...as do those of the Chairman on the Comission for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips.

Some quotes: (PS both men are Black and Immigrants!)

Those in the ’hood alarmed by the assault on multiculturalism by Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality, will find no comfort from the man who tops polls as Britain’s most trusted newscaster. 

“Trevor is a friend and I totally agree,” he says. “But I would say something even stronger: *if you don’t want to integrate, why come to Britain?” It is a deadly simple point but one white politicos are too politically correct to utter. “I am an unashamed integrationist.”* 
 - Trevor McDonald

www.timesonline.co.uk/new...23,00.html

Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality (CRE), the publicly-funded body which monitors anti-discrimination law in the UK, has called for an abandonment of Britain’s traditional “multicultural” approach to race relations.

In a marked shift to the right, Phillips has said that in its stead the commission must assert “a core of Britishness.”

The Times asked him, “But is not multiculturalism the whole point of the Commission?”
He replied, “The word is not useful, it means the wrong things.”
“Shall we kill it off?” the reporters asked.
“Yes, let’s do that.” Phillips agreed, “Multiculturalism suggests separateness. We are now in a different world.”

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3615379.stm

Get with the program Piggy. Even the Multiculturalists agree the concept is now OUTDATED.


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## Guest (28 Jul 2004)

*Failed Multiculturalism*

> Some quotes: (PS both men are Black and Immigrants!)

So what? That doesn't make their views any more relevant than anybody elses' on this topic. To assume that it does betrays a fundamentally prejudiced mindset in my view.


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## Tizona (1 Aug 2004)

*Multiculturalism*

Good God you really are incredible.

The Chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality in the UK has no more valid an opinion than yours!
I think several million UK citizens would beg to differ.
What arrogance!

Thank christ you're actually just a nobody.


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## Titsonly (2 Aug 2004)

*Multiculturalism*

Qoute:

"Thank christ you're actually just a nobody."

So are you tits. Except you're also a racist bigot to boot.


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## Tizona (2 Aug 2004)

*Multiculturalism*

And you're obviously a sexist pig.

I sense victory.


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## Titsonly (2 Aug 2004)

*Multiculturalism*

A sexist pig? What!!?

The deluded always sense victory tits, but you're racist remarks as Elcid make any moral victory worth crap. Evil little man.


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## TitsOnly (2 Aug 2004)

*I rest my case your honour*

Quote:
"Some quotes: (PS both men are Black and Immigrants!)"

That says it all about you tits.


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## Tizona (2 Aug 2004)

*Victory!!*

When your opponent runs out of ideas and resorts to name calling, you know you've won the debate.
:rollin 

I rest my case.


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## Brain (2 Aug 2004)

*Tits*

Errr, Tits....is it now considered racist to call a black man *Black*?

Is it considered racist to call an immigrant *an Immigrant*?

Since the sane answer to the above is NO..then please explain why it is therefore racist to call a black immigrant a *Black Immigrant*?

If that is what makes one a racist then everybody is a racist in your srewed up world...even Black Immigrants!


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