# Water divining: Is there any evidence that it works?



## Bluebells (30 Jun 2007)

_Mods note: _ This discussion has been split from the Group Water and Well KeyPost by ajapale . The original discussion was not started by Bluebells 


Hi bespoke.
You are looking for a diviner, but you may actually be one yourself. I discovered I was one, and was delighted until I was told that it is not that rare. 
Get a wire coathanger. Break off the hook, and straighten the wire so that you have one long piece. Make a V with it. Bend the two ends at right angles, and hold those ends tightly in your hands. Put your elbows in close to your body and walk, pointing the V in front of you. If you can divine you will know, because it is the most bizarre sensation to feel the wire lifting. 
Try it out first over a place where you know there is water, like a water supply pipe. 
However don't go sinking wells or drilling holes until you have a second and/or more scientific opinion .  
Have fun.


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## ClubMan (30 Jun 2007)

*Re: Key Post: Group Water Scheme & Private Wells.*



Bluebells said:


> Try it out first over a place where you know there is water, like a water supply pipe.


Hardly a scientific/objective [double] blind test now is it? 


> However don't go sinking wells or drilling holes until you have a second and/or more scientific opinion .


 "*More *scientific"? Don't you actually mean simply "scientific"? 


> Have fun.


 Indeed - have fun. But don't take this stuff seriously in the absence of any objective evidence that it actually works.


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## z108 (30 Jun 2007)

*Re: Key Post: Group Water Scheme & Private Wells.*

What intrigues me is how birds for example appear to have an internal compass  and use this to  navigate when migrating.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/11/1102_TVbirdflite.html


Maybe the dowsers in wikipedia were tested for the wrong thing and should have been tested for magnetic sensitivity instead.

But I'm skeptical too !!!


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## ClubMan (30 Jun 2007)

*Re: Key Post: Group Water Scheme & Private Wells.*



sign said:


> Maybe the dowsers in wikipedia were tested for the wrong thing and should have been tested for magnetic sensitivity instead.


The key point is that in properly conducted tests dowsers have failed to come up with results better than chance so there's probably no need to test them for anything further. One reasonable explanation of the movement of dowsing "devices" is the ideomotor effect which would not involve any external influences such as magnetism etc.

Could birds not perhaps actually navigate by the sun or other environmental cues rather than having any in-built "compass"?


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## Bluebells (30 Jun 2007)

*Re: Water devining: Is there any evidence that it works?*

Hi ClubMan,


If one wants to discover if they can find water underground, they must try it out first over a known body of water. They will have an answer right away if they have a reaction there. Hence my suggestion about the water pipe.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Jun 2007)

Bluebells

That is simply not a test of divining skills. You think you have some divining gift. I know that I have none. You will walk on water and your joss sticks will lep up and down. Mine will stay stable. The mind is very strong and is fooling you into thinking you have some skills. 

If I told you that you were walking on water, but I knew that you were not, I am sure that your joss sticks would respond as well. 

There is only one test and when ever it is repeated systematically, water diviners fail to find water any more often than those who are not diviners. 

Brendan


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## ClubMan (30 Jun 2007)

*Re: Water devining: Is there any evidence that it works?*



Bluebells said:


> If one wants to discover if they can find water underground, they must try it out first over a known body of water. They will have an answer right away if they have a reaction there. Hence my suggestion about the water pipe.


Have you read any of the links to skeptical views on this sort of thing in the _Wikipedia _article that I linked to above? Do you still believe that there is something to dowsing in spite of the results of rigorous scientific testing of the phenomenon? If you do then that's all it is - a belief, and not something backed up by any hard evidence.


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## ClubMan (30 Jun 2007)

Actually -  really says it all...


> One thing must be made clear—dowsers on the whole are *very honest folk*. They *believe* in what they do. Unfortunately their belief is poorly placed. They CANNOT perform as they think they can. Having a string of successful wells to which one can point, proves nothing. A better test would be to ask the dowser whether he can find a DRY spot within 100 metres of a well he has dowsed. With more than 90% of the world’s land mass above reachable supplies of water, this should be quite difficult.
> 
> Diviners are often believers in various cult matters, such as faith-healing and spiritualism. Some, however, refuse to accept their claimed powers as anything supernatural, They tend to think anyone can do what they do. And in this belief, they are quite correct. Any person can be seized by the idiomotor-reaction enthusiasm. But the test, as always, is whether or not they can then discover water, oil, gold or other substance solely by means of this twitching of a forked stick. Tests done in Australia and many other countries of the world indicate that belief in water dowsing, and in all forms of divining, are false and fanciful.
> 
> ...


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## Bluebells (1 Jul 2007)

Question.
I posted a reply to ClubMan. 
It was in two parts. Part one wondered how a reply to a post in another thread became a new thread, apparently started by me and with a misspelt title. I was not asking about the merits or otherwise of divining as a means of finding water underground. I was merely responding to a question. 
However my post  shows only the other part, in which I give my reason for telling the OP, bespoke, to test ability over a waterpipe.
Why has the first part been left out?  
I see that the spelling has been corrected on the Thread Title list, but remains incorrect on what appears to be my individual thread title. I didn't  write ' deviner '!

I did not have a query as to whether divining works or not.  I don't know how, or if it works for everyone every time, and I  don't care. I just know that a forked wire behaves in a very odd manner if I carry it over water. 

Brendan, I do not see it as a ' gift '. You obviously have a strong belief in mind over matter, and in the potential power of your mind over mine. But it is indeed a gift to be able to harness that power. How do you do it ?

I don't take Wikipedia very seriously, given that anyone can edit it.


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## ClubMan (1 Jul 2007)

Bluebells said:


> Question.
> I posted a reply to ClubMan.
> It was in two parts. Part one wondered how a reply to a post in another thread became a new thread, apparently started by me and with a misspelt title. I was not asking about the merits or otherwise of divining as a means of finding water underground. I was merely responding to a question.
> However my post  shows only the other part, in which I give my reason for telling the OP, bespoke, to test ability over a waterpipe.
> ...


One of the moderators (not me - maybe _Brendan_) saw fit to declare the discussion of dowsing off topic in the original thread and split it into a separate thread. The link to the original thread is included in the edited original post for people who want to check the original context.


> I did not have a query as to whether divining works or not.  I don't know how, or if it works for everyone every time, and I  don't care. I just know that a forked wire behaves in a very odd manner if I carry it over water.


 Be that as it may that does not prove that dowsing "works".


> Brendan, I do not see it as a ' gift '.
> 
> ...
> 
> But it is indeed a gift to be able to harness that power.


 Eh? 


> I don't take Wikipedia very seriously, given that anyone can edit it.


 Yes - but not anybody can edit the content of the links to which it refers including some that document rigorous scientific tests of dowsing which show that it yields results no better than chance - or to put it another way, that it does not "work".

So I take it that you "believe" that dowsing works in general or at least in your specific case? If so why not apply for James Randi's $1M prize?


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## Bluebells (1 Jul 2007)

Brendan said,  that if he told me there was water somewhere, and he knew there was not,  his power of suggestion is so strong,  that he would influence the way my mind would work. Is this  not a ' gift ', in the sense that Brendan used the word originally?
Thanks for explaining how this ended up in a new thread,  but why did whoever split the thread, not just put their own name on it, instead of a new title and under my name?

I had no wish to get into a debate about this. I only know as much about it as I described, nor have I any desire to do so. To me it is just fun, and I don't take it as seriously as you seem to think I do. If the scientists say it doesn't work, thats fine by me, I can't go against proven science.


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## ajapale (1 Jul 2007)

> This discussion has been split from the Group Water and Well KeyPost by ajapale 		 	 		 		 		 		 		 		 						 				_ 				Last edited by ajapale : Yesterday at 03:10 PM. 				Reason: discussion split from keypost 				_




Key Posts are not for discursive discussions.

I apologise for spelling divining incorrectly.


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## ClubMan (1 Jul 2007)

Bluebells said:


> Brendan said,  that if he told me there was water somewhere, and he knew there was not,  his power of suggestion is so strong,  that he would influence the way my mind would work. Is this  not a ' gift ', in the sense that Brendan used the word originally?


I presume that _Brendan _was referring to the ideomotor phenomonen in general and not any special gift that he claims to possess. But I'm sure he'll let us know if he possesses any paranormal powers.


> Thanks for explaining how this ended up in a new thread,  but why did whoever split the thread, not just put their own name on it, instead of a new title and under my name?


 That's how thread splitting works. 


> I had no wish to get into a debate about this. I only know as much about it as I described, nor have I any desire to do so. To me it is just fun, and I don't take it as seriously as you seem to think I do. If the scientists say it doesn't work, thats fine by me, I can't go against proven science.


 Fair enough.


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## woods (1 Jul 2007)

I will be building a new house shortly and would be interested in getting some one to "divine" for lines of magnetism. 
I understand that both tallents are related.
Does anyone know anything about this or anybody that does it or any book on the topic.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Jul 2007)

I would say that your local Feng Shui consultant would be able to help you. They might tell you what the best way to face the house is as well. 

Brendan


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## Gatherer (1 Jul 2007)

Presume all these scientific, rational and skeptical contributions are not from people whose sundays involve subscription to the primitive belief system that is so popular on the island...


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## ClubMan (1 Jul 2007)

woods said:


> I will be building a new house shortly and would be interested in getting some one to "divine" for lines of magnetism.


Why not use a compass? Why does magnetism matter to you anyway?


> I understand that both tallents are related.


You mean more hocus pocus?


> Does anyone know anything about this or anybody that does it or any book on the topic.


This one maybe?


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## ClubMan (1 Jul 2007)

Gatherer said:


> Presume all these scientific, rational and skeptical contributions are not from people whose sundays involve subscription to the primitive belief system that is so popular on the island...


Certainly not in my case or _Brendan's _unless he's had a conversion since I met hime last.


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## Gatherer (1 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Certainly not in my case or _Brendan's _unless he's had a conversion since I met hime last.



Good to hear. Water divining may be hocus-pocus but it's not the prevalent one, there aren't any shrines to it and nobody to seems to be killing anyone over it. Or if they are, they're keeping it quiet.


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## z108 (2 Jul 2007)

But is somebody somewhere making money from it ?


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## Bluebells (2 Jul 2007)

Hi ClubMan,
had a look at your ideomotor link. It explains alot of things. But the thing is, my hands don't move, its my little bit of wire that moves. My elbows are tight against my sides and I hold some rounded wire loosely in my hands. I point the V at the ground and the wire will rise until it is pointing upwards. I  try to force the wire down, it won't go. I take a few steps away, and the wire drops to the ground.
Whether its my mind that does it ( or Brendans ! ), I neither know nor care.  I'm only saying what happens. 
In fact, I'd love it if it is my mind that causes this, because there are alot of things I'd like to make happen. Is it really that simple?
 ( Sorry if the last bit sounds sarcastic, it is not meant to be)


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## Bluebells (2 Jul 2007)

Apology accepted. Thanx ajapale


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## ClubMan (2 Jul 2007)

Gatherer said:


> Good to hear. Water divining may be hocus-pocus but it's not the prevalent one, there aren't any shrines to it and nobody to seems to be killing anyone over it. Or if they are, they're keeping it quiet.


Fair point but, in my opinion, any form of hocus pocus contributes towards a general dumbing down and erosion of a logical/scientific approach to matters so it's always good to challenge it.


sign said:


> But is somebody somewhere making money from it ?


Good point! 


Bluebells said:


> had a look at your ideomotor link. It explains alot of things. But the thing is, my hands don't move, its my little bit of wire that moves. My elbows are tight against my sides and I hold some rounded wire loosely in my hands. I point the V at the ground and the wire will rise until it is pointing upwards. I  try to force the wire down, it won't go. I take a few steps away, and the wire drops to the ground.


That's the point - people may not be aware of it and convinced that something else causes it but ultimately it is they (probably through involuntary and un/sub-conscious movements of which they are not really aware) who are they cause.


> Whether its my mind that does it ( or Brendans ! ), I neither know nor care.  I'm only saying what happens.
> In fact, I'd love it if it is my mind that causes this, because there are alot of things I'd like to make happen. Is it really that simple?


 No - it's even simpler. Involuntary and un/sub-conscious movements by your body most likely causes the movement of the dowsing device.


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## woods (2 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Why not use a compass? Why does magnetism matter to you anyway?
> 
> You mean more hocus pocus?
> 
> This one maybe?


You are speaking to a devout agnostic so you can save the sarcasm on the religion.
It is a scientific fact that magnetism effects the body and I take far too much care of this particular body to allow a little thing like that to damage it.
Where magnetic lines cross, a magnetic field is created that has been known to cause serious health effects. A little thing like moving your bed to the other side of the room can make a big difference to your health.
Magnetism can account for a lot of other things such as hauntings. If a magnetic field is created in a room a normally sensible person can become convinced that there is a presence other than themself in the room. Maybe I can harness that and set up a haunted bed and breakfast.

On a more serious note, this is something that I am interested in investigating so if someone knows of any person who does it I would be interested in hiring them and I do not care who thinks that I am nuts for doing so.


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## ClubMan (2 Jul 2007)

woods said:


> You are speaking to a devout agnostic so you can save the sarcasm on the religion.


Eh?!? What sarcasm on religion? 


> It is a scientific fact that magnetism effects the body and I take far too much care of this particular body to allow a little thing like that to damage it.
> Where magnetic lines cross, a magnetic field is created that has been known to cause serious health effects. A little thing like moving your bed to the other side of the room can make a big difference to your health. Magnetism can account for a lot of other things such as hauntings. If a magnetic field is created in a room a normally sensible person can become convinced that there is a presence other than themself in the room. Maybe I can harness that and set up a haunted bed and breakfast.


Can you link to some objective scientific evidence about this please?


> On a more serious note, this is something that I am interested in investigating so if someone knows of any person who does it I would be interested in hiring them and I do not care who thinks that I am nuts for doing so.


As I said - magnetism can be detected using a compass.


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## woods (2 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Eh?!? What sarcasm on religion?
> 
> Can you link to some objective scientific evidence about this please?


Actually I was hoping that I could just be lazy and you could find it for me. I love the way you do that.


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## ClubMan (2 Jul 2007)

woods said:


> Actually I was hoping that I could just be lazy and you could find it for me. I love the way you do that.


Even I cannot find something that I never posted (sarcasm on religion in this thread).

And with reference to evidence about the alleged magnetic phenomena that you mention above are you saying that this is stuff that you just believe but cannot actually provide any evidence for?


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## anois (2 Jul 2007)

Anybody here know much about geopathic stress.  Some people get their sites checked for this before they build. I know lots of people who got their homes checked and most of them got some kind of pumps installed.


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## ClubMan (2 Jul 2007)

More pseudoscience/quackery with no scientific/objective evidence to back up claims of its existence or impact - just _Google _or read about it...


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## Satanta (3 Jul 2007)

Gatherer said:


> Presume all these scientific, rational and skeptical contributions are not from people whose sundays involve subscription to the primitive belief system that is so popular on the island...


 


woods said:


> You are speaking to a devout agnostic so you can save the sarcasm on the religion.


 
Just for clarity. I presume this is where that comment was directed. It seems to have gotten lost in some of the other issues and direct replies.


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## Bluebells (3 Jul 2007)

Perhaps we don't yet have the science to prove or disprove some of these things. Maybe in the future we will have ways to measure what we currently regard as hocus pocus.
Some folk medicines have now been discovered to have some basis in fact. The relevant example in this case concerns the use of magnets for the relief of pain. Our forebears had no way to test how or why  this worked. I'm almost sure I read somewhere that a Boston (I think ) University had actually concluded that magnets can relieve pain. I am open to correction on this however.
Before modern veterinary science, farmers would hang the foot of an animal who had died of some type of disease, in their barn, to ward off bad luck. It was believed to  work because the other animals would remain healthy.
 They had no idea that some future scientist would discover and explain inoculation. The cattle would have been exposed to low doses of this highly contagious disease and built up a resistance. Those farmers believed in hocus pocus, that nowadays, we call science.
So maybe we should keep an open mind on some things that we don't understand?


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## ClubMan (3 Jul 2007)

Bluebells said:


> Perhaps we don't yet have the science to prove or disprove some of these things. Maybe in the future we will have ways to measure what we currently regard as hocus pocus.


Of course - any scientist will always allow for that. Even if the probability is approaching zero . But based on current scientific/objective tests there is nothing substantive to support the efficacy of dowsing or the existence of geopathic stress.


> Some folk medicines have now been discovered to have some basis in fact.


 Many "folk" medicines are based on the use of substances with active ingredients (e.g. herbs) which have efficacy in certain situations of for certain conditions (and have been tested and verified under in clinical tests). Nothing unusual in that.


> The relevant example in this case concerns the use of magnets for the relief of pain. Our forebears had no way to test how or why  this worked. I'm almost sure I read somewhere that a Boston (I think ) University had actually concluded that magnets can relieve pain. I am open to correction on this however.


 OK - I'm fed up searching for this stuff so I'll leave it to you to link to authoritative and accepted evidence that magnet therapy is effective for certain conditions. I can easily link to information that strongly suggests that it is not.


> Before modern veterinary science, farmers would hang the foot of an animal who had died of some type of disease, in their barn, to ward off bad luck. It was believed to  work because the other animals would remain healthy.They had no idea that some future scientist would discover and explain inoculation. The cattle would have been exposed to low doses of this highly contagious disease and built up a resistance. Those farmers believed in hocus pocus, that nowadays, we call science.
> So maybe we should keep an open mind on some things that we don't understand?


 As they say - we should keep an open mind. But not so much that our brains fall out. We should also test things to see what happens and not just assume that because something strange happens then something strange (e.g. paranormal, mystical, something else that we cannot explain - "YET" etc.) must be going on.

The evidence supporting the efficacy of dowsing or geopathic stress is non existant. If clinical trials were done of the inadvertent innoculation of cattle then they may have pointed towards something interesting going on.


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## z108 (3 Jul 2007)

Bluebells said:


> The relevant example in this case concerns the use of magnets for the relief of pain.



A magnetic field is a scientifically observable and verifiable phenomenon with many applications in the world of electronic circuitry and electrical power. A force is felt on a charge in the field and this is covered by many laws which are the basis of modern engineering. It is not hocus pocus and it is not the supernatural. 

Magnetic bracelets have long been used  by people suffering from arthritis and the usefulness of this is another issue but in itself it does not prove dowsing.


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## Vanilla (3 Jul 2007)

We had a diviner in to tell us where to put our well. To be honest we didn't think much about it at the time. We contacted the company who were to drill for the well and they suggested a diviner, and arranged for him to come. I wasn't there but my husband was. He found the whole thing very amusing. The diviner was a tiny little old man and our site at the time was a sea of mud. My husband and the well man literally lifted the diviner around the site until he 'struck' water. I think he was paid the princely sum of €20 or €30. I have no idea whether it's all hocus pocus or not, I suspect it is. However the well driller wanted a diviner so we went along with it. Is there a more scientific method? Of course we now have a very healthy well with more water than we could possibly ever use so all's well that ends well.


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## ClubMan (3 Jul 2007)

Maybe there's simply a lot of water under your land? Based on the scientific tests that have been done diviners' results are generally within the margin of error of chance. As such the evidence certainly points to claims of being able to dowse water (or other things) being bunkum.


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## ClubMan (3 Jul 2007)

sign said:


> A magnetic field is a scientifically observable and verifiable phenomenon with many applications in the world of electronic circuitry and electrical power. A force is felt on a charge in the field and this is covered by many laws which are the basis of modern engineering. It is not hocus pocus and it is not the supernatural.


Just to clarify - obviously I never suggested that magnetic forces were hocus pocus or supernatural. Magnetic therapy and some claimed effects of magnetism on the body are another matter though...


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## Vanilla (3 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Maybe there's simply a lot of water under your land? Based on the scientific tests that have been done diviners' results are generally within the margin of error of chance. As such the evidence certainly points to claims of being able to dowse water (or other things) being bunkum.


 

I'd say there is loads of water under there. For instance we have at least one natural spring elsewhere on the site. Or are the two linked? Haven't the foggiest. Anyway if they are Mr. Diviner could probably have pointed his twig anywhere and found water ( that might have sounded quite rude but was unintentional).


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## galwaytt (3 Jul 2007)

how about inserting a dose of pragmatism here?

Example: water diviner tells me that if I specify position I want the well dug in, I pay for every foot, at Eur 7.50 a foot - irrespective of finding water or not, good quality or bad.

If, however, he divines it, I pay nothing unless it's both found and of usable quality.  

The well was 295 feet deep.

So, based on that, which option would you elect?    All I know is that I've had water for 10 years, and it's perfect..........     I am of course, slightly out of pocket..........


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## ClubMan (3 Jul 2007)

No problem with that. My problem is with people who claim that dowsing actually works. If he strikes it lucky and gets paid fair enough.


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## ajapale (3 Jul 2007)

Do diviners proport to find the depth of the well as well as the presence of water?
Aslo do diviners proport to determine the quality of water (in terms of Iron, Manganese, Ph or Hardness)?
I know that the diviner with a well know driller in the South charges €60-€70 at the moment.
aj


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## Purple (3 Jul 2007)

Any chance Concern or Goal can hire a few of these guys to spend a few weeks in the Sub-Sahara? Might be a great help 
If that works out why not rent them out to Shell or Elf or Total? Can they find oil three miles under ground? If so they can save oil companies hundreds of millions of dollars.
I'm amazed that no one has thought of this before! 
What’s that you say; they use geology and science. I wonder why?


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## z108 (3 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> If that works out why not rent them out to Shell or Elf or Total? Can they find oil three miles under ground? If so they can save oil companies hundreds of millions of dollars.



I heard a story a few years ago that oil companies hired Uri Geller to help them. I guess they must be desperate and we really have passed peak oil


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## ClubMan (3 Jul 2007)

Maybe they were looking for snake oil?


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## z107 (3 Jul 2007)

Empirical science has its limitations. Hypothesis are never proven.

 For example, Newton's law of Universal Gravitation seemed pretty rock solid until Einstein came along.


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## ClubMan (3 Jul 2007)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Empirical science has its limitations. Hypothesis are never proven.
> 
> For example, Newton's law of Universal Gravitation seemed pretty rock solid until Einstein came along.


Of course - but the corollary is that where there is little or no evidence to support a particular hypothesis then we can most likely assume that it is false - viz. dowsing and the results of several scientific/"clinical" trials to date.


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## z107 (3 Jul 2007)

> but the corollary is that where there is little or no evidence to support a particular hypothesis then we can most likely assume that it is false



No, this is incorrect. The most we can say is that there is little evidence to support the hypothesis.


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## MOB (3 Jul 2007)

I had a quick google and there is a US federal agency which collates information on complementary and alternative medicine 

[broken link removed]

They have a few pages about magnet therapy;  If I might paraphrase, their verdict seems to be : far from proven, not very convincing test results so far, but some studies show that there is possibly some therapeutic effect,  further research needed (leaning more toward toward 'research needed to debunk' rather than 'research needed to prove efficacy').


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## ClubMan (3 Jul 2007)

umop3p!sdn said:


> No, this is incorrect. The most we can say is that there is little evidence to support the hypothesis.


True - my mistake.


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## Pennyscraper (18 Dec 2007)

Brendan said:


> I would say that your local Feng Shui consultant would be able to help you. They might tell you what the best way to face the house is as well.
> 
> Brendan



TBH Brendan, its well and good to believe in hard facts and numbers, coming from an accounting background, but it doesn't do to make haphazard remarks about matters that it appears you may not have researched sufficiently.

1. Feng Shui consultants may indeed be charlatans, as can accountants, solicitors etc etc. Perhaps they should have self-regulation until they too make a hames of it!! But feng Shui as a body of knowledge is very old indeed, and not be slighted in this way.
2. Any oil or exploration company worth its salt uses dowsers as a part of their exploration process. One precinct of Switzerland makes it law that the site must be dowsed (regarding illness-producing earth energies) before a building can be sited there.
3. *The dowsing response is indeed caused by the user*. Serious dowsers accept this and scientific study has already accepted this natural activity. No mystery there? The pendulum / forked stick etc is merely an 'aerial', not a magic wand. It amplifies the minute movementts that your mind sends to your muscles. This is the biofeedback system that you have set up in training. You can use any system you wish, including your hands, a visualised pendulum or nothing at all except a feeling. Just because many amateur dowsers get mixed results, this does not invalidate the practice?
4. James Randhi has been challenged on many occasions by dowsers and has failed to allow the challenge. As a previous poster said, please beware of Wikipedia and that includes its sources.
5. The Catholic Church used the services of Abbé Mermet, a french monk to map-dowse for water in parts of the earth where water was NOT easily found. Your 90% reference to the availability of water underground may be true in Ireland but it is patently not true in many parts of the world where the subterranean water table is very hard to reach at times.
6. The US military trained thousands of troops in Vietnam to use a single dowsing rod in one hand, rifle in the other, to locate enemy foxholes.
7. Eveyone can dowse to a greater or lesser extent. Its like the 4 minute mile folks, it can be done. Do not believe such haphazrd references to online research. Try it for yourself. If it works, keep it to yourself, because negativity is contagious in all forms of human activity.

Sorry for the tone, but dowsing is a valid activity, with many studies clearly showing results above chance, with national governments such as Russia and USA spending big money on dowsing / remote viewing. I would suggest that its not done to give us a reality anchor for our sci-fi films.

Marconi's friends had him committed to a psychiatric facility for a short time when he claimed that he could send voices through the ether.....Yet so few years later, most of your grandparents all used this technology in the aul wireless and you continue to do so !! So what seems crazy is not, if you take time to research with an open mind. Please don't ask me to reference the above claims. Google for yourself, so your own research and make proud, bold statements when you have the facts. To make statements contrary to my everyday experience on the strength of Wikipedia is not a very solid platform to stand on.

By the way, I love Askaboutmoney. Keep on keeping on.

One caveat : Abre Los Ojos folks !!!!!!


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## ClubMan (18 Dec 2007)

Pennyscraper said:


> But feng Shui as a body of knowledge is very old indeed, and not be slighted in this way.


Eh? Something that is long established automatically deserves some sort of respect? I think not...


> 2. Any oil or exploration company worth its salt uses dowsers as a part of their exploration process. One precinct of Switzerland makes it law that the site must be dowsed (regarding illness-producing earth energies) before a building can be sited there.


 What "precinct"? Even if they do that doesn't validate dowsing.


> This is the biofeedback system that you have set up in training. You can use any system you wish, including your hands, a visualised pendulum or nothing at all except a feeling. Just because many amateur dowsers get mixed results, this does not invalidate the practice?


 "Professional" dowsers have fared little better in rigorously scientific clinical trials that have been carried out. See here for example (note - not _Wikipedia_).


> 4. James Randhi has been challenged on many occasions by dowsers and has failed to allow the challenge.


 Eh? This certainly suggests that he has entertained their challenges but they failed.


> 5. The Catholic Church used the services of Abbé Mermet, a french monk to map-dowse for water in parts of the earth where water was NOT easily found.


 So what if the _Catholic Church _did this? They are hardly any sort of arbiter of scientific and objective reasoning.


> 6. The US military trained thousands of troops in Vietnam to use a single dowsing rod in one hand, rifle in the other, to locate enemy foxholes.


 And....?


> 7. Eveyone can dowse to a greater or lesser extent. Its like the 4 minute mile folks, it can be done. Do not believe such haphazrd references to online research. Try it for yourself. If it works, keep it to yourself, because negativity is contagious in all forms of human activity.


 Yes - everybody can dowse as well as the experts - i.e. in line with chance and randomness.


> Sorry for the tone, but dowsing is a valid activity, with many studies clearly showing results above chance


 Such as?


> So what seems crazy is not, if you take time to research with an open mind.


 As the saying goes - "keep an open mind - but not so open that your brains fall out".


> Please don't ask me to reference the above claims.


 I would prefer if you could link to the tests which you claim validate dowsing as returning results better than chance. And to supporting information about some of the other claims that you make above. It think that it's reasonable to ask for somebody making such claims to back them up.


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## Pennyscraper (18 Dec 2007)

*There is clear evidence that dowsing works*



Purple said:


> Any chance Concern or Goal can hire a few of these guys to spend a few weeks in the Sub-Sahara? Might be a great help
> If that works out why not rent them out to Shell or Elf or Total? Can they find oil three miles under ground? If so they can save oil companies hundreds of millions of dollars.
> I'm amazed that no one has thought of this before!
> What’s that you say; they use geology and science. I wonder why?



That's just over-confidence and daftness Purple. Why be so cursory over something so serious?

The Catholic Church did indeed use one of the world's greatest dowsers, Abbé Mermet, a French monk, to  find water all over the world for missiosn, using map-dowsing. No its not withcraft and yes it is scientific enough for those who use it and get results. How does it work? Hmmmmmm. Let's stop using it until we find out. For God's sake, its not a cancer drug. If it works, it works. Do any of you know how many of your devices in your home really work? Do you sit there and go, ah no, that sounds like serious bull. How could you record programmes if you're not watching them and you've no tape or dvd? better tell Sky that they're pulling the wool over your eyes folks!!

If I tell you I can fly a jumbo jet, maybe I can. maybe I can't>>> same with dowsing. Just because you haven't seen quality dowsing at work doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

ALL international oil companies use professional dowsers. Try Google, not Wikipedia when you need to know stuff. Google, like a good sports car, needs a good driver. Gotta get the thinking cap on folks!

Dowsing is used across many governments, many industries. Successfully. With results above chance. Many amatuer dowsers do make many mistakes and therefore dilute credibility.


Bu then, is the scientific HSE not beginning to seriously dilute credibility at this stage  All down to the users and their experience folks. Dowsing is subject to human error too


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## Pennyscraper (18 Dec 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Eh? Something that is long established automatically deserves some sort of respect? I think not...
> What "precinct"? Even if they do that doesn't validate dowsing.
> "Professional" dowsers have fared little better in rigorously scientific clinical trials that have been carried out. See here for example (note - not _Wikipedia_).
> Eh? This certainly suggests that he has entertained their challenges but they failed.
> ...



 

No, the dowsers did not fail Randhi's challenge. He refused to allow them to challenge.
The Catholic Church used it Abbe Mermet to successfully locate water in parts of mexico, California and other parts of world where all other methods had failed to find water. He found it using map-dowsing, 1st time. So what you say? That makes me smile 
The US army are of course known for trying wacko ways to kill their troops by training them in using ouija boards and praying that the enemy will go away. No, they found it worked and didn't question why.
Again, the Swiss local authority must be bonkers also.
Maybe their minds were so open that their brains all fell out !! Ah to be in the company of the bright shining lamp of wisdom 

I will post clear evidence but not tonight.


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## ClubMan (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: There is clear evidence that dowsing works*



Pennyscraper said:


> No its not withcraft and yes it is scientific enough for those who use it and get results.


Scientific *enough*! Care to elaborate? 


> How does it work? Hmmmmmm. Let's stop using it until we find out.


No - let's test it to see if it does work. Hang on - they've done that and what do you know? Results no better than chance in any properly structured scientific/clinical test that has been performed to date (i.e. double blind etc. etc.).


> For God's sake, its not a cancer drug. If it works, it works. Do any of you know how many of your devices in your home really work? Do you sit there and go, ah no, that sounds like serious bull. How could you record programmes if you're not watching them and you've no tape or dvd? better tell Sky that they're pulling the wool over your eyes folks!!


So we should just accept that it works in spite of the evidence to the contrary and lack of evidence to support such claims?


> If I tell you I can fly a jumbo jet, maybe I can. maybe I can't>>> same with dowsing.


How exactly is this "the same"? 


> Just because you haven't seen quality dowsing at work doesn't mean you throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Show us the evidence that it works.


> ALL international oil companies use professional dowsers. Try Google, not Wikipedia when you need to know stuff. Google, like a good sports car, needs a good driver. Gotta get the thinking cap on folks!


No - you post links to the information on which you are basing your claims and let others comment on them.


> With results above chance.


Evidence?


> Bu then, is the scientific HSE not beginning to seriously dilute credibility at this stage  All down to the users and their experience folks. Dowsing is subject to human error too


Huh!?!


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## ClubMan (18 Dec 2007)

Pennyscraper said:


> No, the dowsers did not fail Randhi's challenge. He refused to allow them to challenge.


Link?


> The Catholic Church used it Abbe Mermet to successfully locate water in parts of mexico, California and other parts of world where all other methods had failed to find water. He found it using map-dowsing, 1st time. So what you say? That makes me smile


 Doesn't prove a thing. 


> The US army are of course known for trying wacko ways to kill their troops by training them in using ouija boards and praying that the enemy will go away. No, they found it worked and didn't question why.


 So what?


> Again, the Swiss local authority must be bonkers also.


 What _Swiss _"local authority" ?


> Maybe their minds were so open that their brains all fell out !! Ah to be in the company of the bright shining lamp of wisdom


 Doesn't take much wisdom to look at carefully collected evidence and draw conclusions. In fact it's boringly simple.


> I will post clear evidence but not tonight.


 Seems odd that you can comment so confidently but need time to gather the evidence...


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## Pennyscraper (18 Dec 2007)

ClubMan said:


> No problem with that. My problem is with people who claim that dowsing actually works. If he strikes it lucky and gets paid fair enough.



Except that this is the argument that many water-diviners in ireland will put forward? So either they are financially suicidal or they are operating severely above chance? Perhaps they come from rich, eccentric families and wish to blow all of their wealth on digging free wells for people over a 40 year career?

It would make an interesting article I'd say. They must be stone-cold crazy to make such bets with punters......


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## Pennyscraper (18 Dec 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Link?
> Doesn't prove a thing.
> So what?
> What _Swiss _"local authority" ?
> ...



I read a lot and unfortunately I've a reasonable memory. Can remember statements made above. But as for web-links, pages etc, well ........patience grasshopper. All will be revealed


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## ClubMan (18 Dec 2007)

Pennyscraper said:


> Except that this is the argument that many water-diviners in ireland will put forward?


How/why would they put forward my argument since to do so would be to totally undermine what they do!


> So either they are financially suicidal or they are operating severely above chance?


How many diviners work on a "no foal no fee" basis and how many make their living solely from this work?


> It would make an interesting article I'd say. They must be stone-cold crazy to make such bets with punters......


Eh?  Once again I'm at a total loss as to what point you are trying to make.


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## Pennyscraper (18 Dec 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Link?
> Doesn't prove a thing.
> So what?
> 
> ...


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## Pennyscraper (18 Dec 2007)

ClubMan said:


> How/why would they put forward my argument since to do so would be to totally undermine what they do!
> 
> Not your argument???, this one>>> from a poster here: #38 I think
> 
> ...



We are speaking a different language where even your "So what?" has begun to echo around the chasms of my empty skull since my brain fell out due to having an open mind; as you say.

My point is: - Dowsing works. And I accept that many tests have proven otherwise. There are also scientific tests to prove that dowsers (note, not dowsing) beat chance. I'll post those soon but not now, as I find this reactionary game kinda boring too


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## Pennyscraper (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: There is clear evidence that dowsing works*



ClubMan said:


> Scientific *enough*! Care to elaborate?
> 
> No - let's test it to see if it does work. Hang on - they've done that and what do you know? Results no better than chance in any properly structured scientific/clinical test that has been performed to date (i.e. double blind etc. etc.).
> 
> ...



Just as Quantum theory caused no end of bother as it didn't seem to conform to scientific rigour, it shoudl surely be accepted that there is more to be uncovered???

from http://www.dowsingworks.com/
Albert Einstein, however, was convinced of the authenticity of dowsing. He said, "I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as they do astrology, as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, unjustified. *The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the uncanny reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time*."

I wouldn't mind him though. Yeh he was smart, but sure he couldn't even get Quantum theory. Why? Because he was right. Science said he was right. At the time!!  

Show us the evidence you say? Surely cause & effect is what you're looking for? if not, clear circumstantial evidence that dowsing works (very very well) for some is in its successful application in life or death circumstances By US Marines in Vietnam, successful application by British Army engineeers to locate water in Monchen Gladbach, 1952. Mines in Falklands War. Its part of the Brit Engineers' training. They like to give them some light relief, some entertainment !!


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## Pennyscraper (18 Dec 2007)

*Re: There is clear evidence that dowsing works*



Pennyscraper said:


> Just as Quantum theory caused no end of bother as it didn't seem to conform to scientific rigour, it shoudl surely be accepted that there is more to be uncovered???
> 
> from http://www.dowsingworks.com/
> Albert Einstein, however, was convinced of the authenticity of dowsing. He said, "I know very well that many scientists consider dowsing as they do astrology, as a type of ancient superstition. According to my conviction this is, unjustified. *The dowsing rod is a simple instrument which shows the uncanny reaction of the human nervous system to certain factors which are unknown to us at this time*."
> ...


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