# McCain vs Obama?



## asking7 (3 Sep 2008)

Which US president would be best for Ireland?
Why?


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## Pique318 (3 Sep 2008)

McCain because Republican policy is to reward companies with tax breaks for outsourcing work to cheaper markets(like Dell, Intel etc over here), therefore making the product cheaper and easier to sell abroad and increasing exports.

Obama because the world will be a little more relaxed without a Republican Hawk in the White House and less armed conflicts might mean worldwide inflation/unemployment/interest rates become less of a struggle.


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## cork (3 Sep 2008)

McCain would be better.

McCain is far more capable as a leader.


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## FredBloggs (3 Sep 2008)

When you look at US Presidency you've to weigh up the VP choice too as they're only a heartbeat away from power.  I wouldn't be too happy having Sarah Palin as President


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## csirl (3 Sep 2008)

Republicans are fine with US mulitnationals locating in Ireland.

Obama is a protectionist who is proposing measures to prevent US companies locating overseas.

Both McCain and Palin have genuine Irish roots - McCain's family is from Donegal. Palin has very close Irish ancestory & had an Irish-American catholic upbringing. Her mother's family - the Sheerans - are Irish emigrants. 

All Obama can conjure up is a remote possibility of some very very distant relative with no concrete proof.

In general terms, Republican Party policies (with the exception of foreign policy) are almost identical to the policies of the main Irish parties. The Republicans are essentially a hybrid of FF, FG & PD in outlook and so would appeal to the majority of the Irish electorate on most domestic issues.

In general terms, the Democrat Party are more similar to the UK Labour Party - to the left of centre, though Obama personally is more in the old Labour pro-union, pro-protectionist mold. Democrat views on a lot of issues would generally be at odds with the majority of the Irish electorate e.g. abortion.

Traditional "Irish" support for the Democrat Party is more to do with them being more favourable to immigrants than the Republicans - the support was due to 1 issue which was very very important to Irish people who immigrated in the later half of the 20th century.


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## ubiquitous (3 Sep 2008)

csirl said:


> Obama is a protectionist who is proposing measures to prevent US companies locating overseas.



Indeed, but I wonder is this just politicking? I cannot imagine Ted Kennedy for example supporting Obama so enthusiastically if the latter is so intent on damaging Irish economic interests in this way?


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## soy (3 Sep 2008)

He is not intent on damaging Irish interests. He is interested in promoting US interests and we are collateral damage.
I would agree that for Ireland (economically) McCain is best - but for worldwide relations Obama wins out. Either should be light years ahead of GWB


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## mercman (4 Sep 2008)

Cork -- McCain capable. Was watching him on the news tonight and he could barely make it down the steps of the Aircraft. Capable of what ?? Picking a running mate from a place the same size as Belgooly. That will be great. Maybe the Beverley Hillbillies should take over the FED as well

Obama for World Peace and Minorities :Interests. McCain for 4 years of TV stress watching wars, conflict, hunger and pure human suffering. If the Republicans are so good for business why is there a worldwide depression running down the line.


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## Ceist Beag (4 Sep 2008)

Oh dear, just read some of the speech made by the bulldog with lipstick and now I'm really worried that McCain might win. That worries me as I think if anything these two will be even more conservative than GWB and will play even more on patriotism to obtain their objectives. I agree with mercman, 4 years of these two will be a nightmare imo.


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## csirl (4 Sep 2008)

> If the Republicans are so good for business why is there a worldwide depression running down the line.


 
Because the Democrats are in power in the US - they hold both the Senate and Congress.


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## Pique318 (4 Sep 2008)

yeah, nothing to do with sub-prime lending, oil prices etc...


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## csirl (4 Sep 2008)

> yeah, nothing to do with sub-prime lending, oil prices etc...


 
You'rep probably right, but perception is everything - the Democrats coming to power coinciding with the start of the financial collapse is something that the Republicans will be ramming down the electorates throat come November.


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## Remix (4 Sep 2008)

I almost spit out my coffee at http://www.irishtimes.com/ this morning when I saw the photo of Palin they published. It's an unflattering side profile with her right hand raised in a wave but the angles of her arm at that moment happen to resemble a nazi salute.

This is in hilarious contrast to the Obama photo last week that was a close-up of Obama's face (to exclude the styrofoam temple pillars in the background?) oozing a relaxed smile with the lights behind him arranged to provide his head with a halo effect.

Very nice of the IT to allow some young agitprop students run their newspaper for a while!


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## cork (4 Sep 2008)

Remix said:


> This is in hilarious contrast to the Obama photo last week that was a close-up of Obama's face (to exclude the styrofoam temple pillars in the background?) oozing a relaxed smile with the lights behind him arranged to provide his head with a halo effect.


 
The Irish media is very biased towards the democrats.

You won't see much on Rev Wrieght on RTE or the Irish Times.


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## S.L.F (4 Sep 2008)

soy said:


> He is not intent on damaging Irish interests. He is interested in promoting US interests and we are collateral damage.
> I would agree that for Ireland (economically) McCain is best - but for worldwide relations Obama wins out. Either should be light years ahead of GWB



Mr Bean would be a better president than GWB


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## csirl (4 Sep 2008)

> Mr Bean would be a better president than GWB


 
All depends on you perspective e.g. if you're a member of the Afghan Taliban or Baath Party in Iraq, then yes, Mr. Bean would have been a better President than GWB.


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## RMCF (5 Sep 2008)

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but I have watched quite a lot of TV time on Obama over recent months and I have noticed something that many might be afraid to say - that black people in the US are very racist themselves.

I have seen a lot interviewed and they seem to be voting for Obama simply because he is a black man, same as them. Rarely do you hear them mention his politics.

Anyone agree?


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## Caveat (5 Sep 2008)

RMCF said:


> Anyone agree?


 
Yes but I think it's just incidental really. I'm sure many women would vote for Hillary only on gender basis, plenty of 'salt of the earth' everymen voted for Bertie because he's _one of them_ etc


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## RMCF (5 Sep 2008)

Caveat said:


> Yes but I think it's just incidental really. I'm sure many women would vote for Hillary only on gender basis, plenty of 'salt of the earth' everymen voted for Bertie because he's _one of them_ etc



True. I'm sure Hillary would have got the woman vote as well.


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## ubiquitous (5 Sep 2008)

Caveat said:


> plenty of 'salt of the earth' everymen voted for Bertie because he's _one of them_ etc



In fairness this perception was as much the product of media spin as anything else.  The FF core vote achieved in successive elections under Ahern was low in comparison to its historical core vote. Where Ahern succeeded was in attracting a higher percentage of lower preference votes towards FF, ie he did not alienate FG/Labour/PD/Green/SF/independent voters to the same extent as his predecessors. The extent to which this derived from 'salt of the earth' types (whoever they are) is utterly a matter for conjecture.


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## Caveat (5 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> ...The extent to which this derived from 'salt of the earth' types (whoever they are) is utterly a matter for conjecture.


 
To clarify, I'm just making the observation that many people voted for Bertie because he's a great auld dub/salt of the earth/whatever, as opposed to FF policy.  I'm not suggesting that these voters were in the majority or responsible for keeping FF/Bertie in power, just that the phenomenon exists.  

Plenty of other examples of this too obviously.


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## ubiquitous (5 Sep 2008)

Caveat said:


> To clarify, I'm just making the observation that many people voted for Bertie because he's a great auld dub/salt of the earth/whatever, as opposed to FF policy.



Indeed you are, but I'm just wondering if that observation is supported by the available evidence? Admittedly it may be so in his own constituency where Ahern always received a large personal vote (although not much different than some of his peers like Willie O'Dea or Brian Cowen), but there is scant evidence elsewhere to suggest that the Ahern factor contributed significantly to the FF core vote.


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## Caveat (5 Sep 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Admittedly it may be so in his own constituency where Ahern always received a large personal vote (although not much different than some of his peers like Willie O'Dea or Brian Cowen)


 
Which is the general point I'm making re voting motivation - nothing to do with Bertie in particular BTW.



> ...but there is scant evidence elsewhere to suggest that the Ahern factor contributed significantly to the FF core vote.


 
I didn't claim that it did contribute significantly.


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## TarfHead (5 Sep 2008)

RMCF said:


> .. seem to be voting for Obama simply because he is a black man


 
And non-AfricanAmericans also.
Liberal guilt.


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## Remix (5 Sep 2008)

> ..seem to be voting for Obama simply because he is a black man


 
The fact that 90%+ of black Americans will likely vote for him doesn't reveal very much about racial voting because democrats have traditionally counted on more than 90% of the black vote anyway.

However a recent Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll revealed that 8% of white voters called race the most important factor in picking a President and for black Americans it was more than double the percentage for whites at 20%.


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## Caveat (5 Sep 2008)

Remix said:


> ...democrats have traditionally counted on more than 90% of the black vote anyway.


 
...of the black people that actually voted that is. Turnout in the more deprived areas is traditionally low here but the potential for a black president will surely entice more black Americans to polls though?


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## Remix (5 Sep 2008)

yes agreed...if Obama can entice to the polls some of the millions of eligible black Americans who don't show up to vote and they do so mainly because he's black then the 20% figure in that poll would be an underestimate.


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## Simeon (5 Sep 2008)

As far as I know the Afro/American population is only 6%. The Hispanics are on about 16%. So, if colour is the decider here then McCain is a shoe-in. An awful lot of people in New England would not vote for Obama regardless of his politics. And they are within their rights. I watched McCain live last night and, although not a spring chicken, got his message across nicely. Appeasement does not work.


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## Remix (25 Sep 2008)

McCain said that illegal Irish immigrants in America should be allowed to become citizens. When asked why, he said, “My wife’s family owns Budweiser. It would be good for business.” 
(Conan O' Brien)

Seriously though, he did make a statement in this area:

[broken link removed]


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## Duke of Marmalade (5 Oct 2008)

asking7 said:


> Which US president would be best for Ireland?
> Why?


We now know Obama is pally with terrorists.  We've had enough of them, thank you.


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## Purple (5 Oct 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> We now know Obama is pally with terrorists.  We've had enough of them, thank you.


By picking such an utterly unsuitable VP candidate McCain lost all credibility in my eyes. Pailin makes Mary Coughlin look good.


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## Pique318 (6 Oct 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> We now know Obama is pally with terrorists.  We've had enough of them, thank you.



LOL...I bet the Republicans wished you had a vote in the elections


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## TarfHead (6 Oct 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> We now know Obama is pally with terrorists..


 
"_We now know .._" ?

This information was in the public domain months ago, along with details on Sen. Obama's pastor of choice, Rev. Wright.

It was noticeable that the Obama campaign response did not include a denial, just to throw mud back in the direction from which it came.


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## csirl (6 Oct 2008)

There's a story going around some parts of the US media that Obama wasnt born in the US and so isnt eligible for President. Some of the media have asked him for his birth cert as proof, but it hasnt been forthcoming.

All he's come up with so far is a short certificate which confirms that he was born on a particular day, but not the location - hasnt produced the equivalent of the "long form" of his birth cert. Story seemed to break when a member of the Obama family in Kenya mentioned that they remembered his birth. The story goes that Obama's parents returned to Kenya for the summer when college term in Univ of Hawaii ended. Mrs. Obama booked a flight back to US to give birth, but was refused permission to board the plane because she was in late stages of pregnancy. Obama was born in Mombassa. A few days after the birth, his mother returned to the US and registered his bith [US citizens are allowed register their children, even if born outside the US].

In Hawaii, members of the public do not have access to birth cert records, so cant be verified by looking in the public records - needs to be produced by Obama.


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## csirl (10 Oct 2008)

There's been another twist to this story - Obama may in fact be Indonesian.

After separating from Obama's father, his mother moved to Indonesia and married an Indonesian called Soetero. Apparantly Obama was legally adopted by Soetero and the name on his birth cert amended to Barack Hussain Soetero. He was registered in school in Indonesia (where he spent most of his primary school years) as Barry Soetero, a muslim Indonesian citizen. The muslim part is interesting, because he attended a catholic primary school in Indonesia.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=72656


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## Ash 22 (10 Oct 2008)

Does anybody know what exactly are Obamas Irish connections?


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## csirl (10 Oct 2008)

> Does anybody know what exactly are Obamas Irish connections?


 
He once passed an Irish pub in Chicago.


McCains family are originally from Donegal - there's some town up their where most people are related to him.

Palin is from an Irish catholic background. Her family - Sheerins, are from Roscommon.


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## Pique318 (10 Oct 2008)

csirl said:


> McCains family are originally from Donegal - there's some town up their where most people are related to him.


 Most people seem to be related to most people up here 



csirl said:


> Palin is from an Irish catholic background. Her family - Sheerins, are from Roscommon.


I bet the Sheerins are keeping schtum about that one!


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## Ash 22 (10 Oct 2008)

Read something on paper before that Obamas mothers people were Keaneys or Kearneys from Co. Offaly. We don't hear much mention of this so just wondering.


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## lou2 (10 Oct 2008)

In Hawaii, members of the public do not have access to birth cert records, so cant be verified by looking in the public records - needs to be produced by Obama.[/quote]


Obama has produced his birth certificate from Hawaii. This was clearly identified in the CNN biography of Obama. The birth cert was also shown to CNN and was proclaimed to be authentic. There was actually more controversy about John McCain not being born on American soil as he was born in Panama but at that time the Panama canal was under US control so he is eligible!!


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## csirl (10 Oct 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *csirl* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=722706#post722706
> _McCains family are originally from Donegal - there's some town up their where most people are related to him._
> 
> Most people seem to be related to most people up here


 
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0118/uselection1.html



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *csirl* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=722706#post722706
> _Palin is from an Irish catholic background. Her family - Sheerins, are from Roscommon._
> 
> I bet the Sheerins are keeping schtum about that one!


 
[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]


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## Purple (10 Oct 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> Read something on paper before that Obamas mothers people were Keaneys or Kearneys from Co. Offaly. We don't hear much mention of this so just wondering.


 No, it was Kenya, and it's not in Offaly


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## ubiquitous (10 Oct 2008)

According to Michael Graham, the Boston Republican on the Right Hook on Friday evenings, and a strong McCain supporter, the contest is over and Obama will win easily.


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## Ash 22 (10 Oct 2008)

Purple said:


> No, it was Kenya, and it's not in Offaly


 
His great, great,great grandfather was supposed to have sailed from Offaly way back. This is his mothers side of the family. Called Fulmuth Kearney. We don't hear him mentioning his Irishness.


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## Caveat (13 Oct 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> We don't hear him mentioning his Irishness.


 
A wise move IMO. It's too open to ridicule whether it's true or not and reeks of bandwagonism.


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## csirl (14 Oct 2008)

> -- Another question yet to be resolved is whether Mr. Obama is a natural born citizen of the United States, a prerequisite pursuant to the U.S. Constitution. There is evidence Mr. Obama was born in Kenya rather than, as he claims, Hawaii. There is also a registration document for a school in Indonesia where the would-be president studied for four years, on which he was identified not only as a Muslim but as an Indonesian. If correct, the latter could give rise to another potential problem with respect to his eligibility to be president.
> Curiously, Mr. Obama has, to date, failed to provide an authentic birth certificate which could clear up the matter.


 
Extract from column in US newspapers today.

This issue about Obama not being eligible for US President as he was not born in the USA and/or has duel citizenship is still running. I cant understand how the papers over here havent picked this up - the most important election story out there right now.


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Oct 2008)

Ash 22 said:


> His great, great,great grandfather was supposed to have *sailed from Offaly* way back. This is his mothers side of the family. Called Fulmuth Kearney. We don't hear him mentioning his Irishness.


Not only has Offaly no coastine, it is the only county in Ireland surrounded by counties with no coastline.


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## Ruam (14 Oct 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Not only has Offaly no coastine, it is the only county in Ireland surrounded by counties with no coastline.



Not true, Offaly has a short border with Galway and the last time I looked at a map Galway had a fairly extensive coastline.

Ruam


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## ubiquitous (14 Oct 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Not only has Offaly no coastine, it is the only county in Ireland surrounded by counties with no coastline.



Laois holds that honour.


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## rmelly (14 Oct 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Laois holds that honour.


 
Makes me wonder why the Fisheries portion of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food wasn't decentralised to Laois.


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## Sylvester3 (14 Oct 2008)

csirl said:


> Extract from column in US newspapers today.
> 
> This issue about Obama not being eligible for US President as he was not born in the USA and/or has duel citizenship is still running. I cant understand how the papers over here havent picked this up - the most important election story out there right now.




I think that is because it is baloney. I read about this months back and the snopes website has a good article on it.



> The qualifications listed in the example quoted above are moot because they refer to someone who was born outside the the United States. Since Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, they do not apply to him.



It is ludicrous to think that someone could get this far in a presidential election without having the necessary qualifications. If this were true, his oponents would be over it faster than any past dealings with a 60's dissident (or terrorist as they call them these days... )


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## Purple (14 Oct 2008)

csirl said:


> Extract from column in US newspapers today.
> 
> This issue about Obama not being eligible for US President as he was not born in the USA and/or has duel citizenship is still running. I cant understand how the papers over here havent picked this up - the most important election story out there right now.



Because the Irish media is very anti-Republican (I am an Obama supporter but the bias here is shameful).


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## csirl (15 Oct 2008)

Sylvester3 said:


> I think that is because it is baloney. I read about this months back and the snopes website has a good article on it.
> 
> 
> 
> It is ludicrous to think that someone could get this far in a presidential election without having the necessary qualifications. If this were true, his oponents would be over it faster than any past dealings with a 60's dissident (or terrorist as they call them these days... )


 
There appears to be 2 issues.

1. Allegation that he was born in Mombassa, Kenya which would make him ineligible. The certificate he produced from Hawaii is just a certificate of eligibility for US citizenship which has no more status than the foreign birth register that Ireland has. Having US citizenship does not make him eligible for President - he needs to be born in the USA.

2. Evidence that, as a child, he was adopted by his Indonesian step-father. Under adoption laws, a child who is adopted abroad is regarded as being born in the adopted parents country and loses their right to citizenship in their previous country. 



> It is ludicrous to think that someone could get this far in a presidential election without having the necessary qualifications. If this were true, his oponents would be over it faster than any past dealings with a 60's dissident (or terrorist as they call them these days... )


 
This is currently going through the Courts in the US. There was a hearing as few days ago in which Obama was ordered by a Judge to produce his birth certificate. Instead of producing the birth certificate thus ending the case in Obama's favour, his lawyers are now appealing the decision and trying to get the case thrown out on a technicality. This approach to the case is suspect for obvious reasons.

[broken link removed]

Republicans are afraid to bring this up in the campaign in case it backfires and they are seen as trying to win an election on technicalities. However, once polling is over and if Obama wins, you can guarantee we'll have a bunch of court cases that will make "hanging chads" look like a walk in the park.



> I think that is because it is baloney. I read about this months back


 
Whereas rumours were circulating a few months back, nothing solid was known. They also seemed to concentrate on the issue of Hawaiis acceptance as a US State, which is not an issue in the Court cases. The Court cases are claiming that Obama was NOT born in Hawaii or any other US State or territory. In the State of Hawaii, birth certs are confidential - only released to people named on them (child/parents) or next of kin, so unlike Ireland, a member of the public cannot apply for one to check. The Court case is real and current - had hearings within the past week.


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## Sylvester3 (16 Oct 2008)

Ok - I did some research on the Factcheck.org which bills itself as a non-partisan group that checks all the claims made by republicans and democrats. They have an exhaustive bit of research into this claim which seems to show that even if there is an on-going court case, the facts speak for themselves:

[broken link removed]

They have personally checked out the birth certificate and have even found a birth announcment in a Honolulu paper at the time. I for one am convinced that as far as anyone can possibly prove, Obama is a naturalised, born in the USA citizen!


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## Purple (16 Oct 2008)

Sylvester3 said:


> Obama is a naturalised, born in the USA citizen!


I thought that naturalised was when you become a citizen but were not born one?


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## WaterSprite (16 Oct 2008)

Election optional according to Paddy Power!

*                                         Irish bookie calls US race over, pays off on Obama*


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## Sylvester3 (17 Oct 2008)

Purple said:


> I thought that naturalised was when you become a citizen but were not born one?



Yeah, well spotted - I misworded it. Obama is a *Natural, *born in the USA citizen. Apologies for adding fuel to the fire!


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## Caveat (17 Oct 2008)

Saw bits of the 'debate' last night: Obama seemed comfortable, confident and generally spoke well; McCain seemed tetchy, uncomfortable and slightly desperate to me.


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## csirl (17 Oct 2008)

> Ok - I did some research on the Factcheck.org which bills itself as a non-partisan group that checks all the claims made by republicans and democrats. They have an exhaustive bit of research into this claim which seems to show that even if there is an on-going court case, the facts speak for themselves:
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> They have personally checked out the birth certificate and have even found a birth announcment in a Honolulu paper at the time. I for one am convinced that as far as anyone can possibly prove, Obama is a naturalised, born in the USA citizen!


 
Factcheck.org is part of the Democratic Party election machinery !!!!!


How come you checked out the birth cert when its confidential and has not yet been produced? The document you saw is not a birth cert, its just a registration of the birth of a US citizen who could have been born anywhere in the world - this is similar to the foreign birth register Ireland operates. This document only proves that Obama is entitled to US citizenship as his mother was a US citizen and usual residence i.e. Hawaii at the time of his birth. It does not state exactly where he is born, which could  in theory be anywhere in the world - this is only found on the long form of the birth cert which Obama has refused to disclose. He also hasnt answered the Indonesian adoption/citizenship issue which also bars him from the presidency.


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## Sylvester3 (17 Oct 2008)

csirl said:


> Factcheck.org is part of the Democratic Party election machinery !!!!!



Can you back that statement up? I can only state what factcheck say about themselves in their about us page:

http://www.factcheck.org/about/

I am not an expert, but looking at their site they are pretty merciless about lies and inconsistencies by both the blue and red corners. Also I found out about them because New Scientist ran an article that mentioned them when talking about Voters having to research facts rather than believing what they are told. They seemed pretty positive about them, but at the end of the day your (my, anyones) viewpoint is coloured by our political beliefs. I just think that intelligence and political machinery would definitely have got involved if Obama's citizenship was really in doubt.




> How come you checked out the birth cert when its confidential and has not yet been produced? The document you saw is not a birth cert, its just a registration of the birth of a US citizen who could have been born anywhere in the world - this is similar to the foreign birth register Ireland operates. This document only proves that Obama is entitled to US citizenship as his mother was a US citizen and usual residence i.e. Hawaii at the time of his birth. It does not state exactly where he is born, which could  in theory be anywhere in the world - this is only found on the long form of the birth cert which Obama has refused to disclose. He also hasnt answered the Indonesian adoption/citizenship issue which also bars him from the presidency.



Did you even look at the site I directed you to? They talk about the document produced as being a birth certificate, and they examine the document in detail with detailed photographs. It does state where he was born - in Honolulu. Unless you are suggesting that the document is a forgery?

Birth Certificate



> (from the site)
> The certificate has all the elements the State Department requires for proving citizenship to obtain a U.S. passport: "your full name, the full name of your parent(s), date and place of birth, sex, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such records." The names, date and place of birth, and filing date are all evident on the scanned version, and you can see the seal above.



There is also the newspaper announcement from that time announcing the birth. TBH I don't think I'm going to worry about it any more because as I am personally convinced that if there was any real doubt then the Republican's would have been over it like a rash, (much like the John Kerry purple heart denouncers from the last election).


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## Sylvester3 (17 Oct 2008)

csirl said:


> He also hasnt answered the Indonesian adoption/citizenship issue which also bars him from the presidency.



As far as I can tell you can't lose your natural born citizenship just because of adoption - this article goes into some depth on how one goes about renouncing a US citizenship (and it is quite torturous)

Straight Dope Article

An important point to note is that the US 'tolerates' to an extent dual citizenship (eg Israeli/US) until a child comes of age and then they are expected to choose one or the other. It seems from reading the article that one cannot be forced to lose their citizenship against their will - so Obama would have had to make that choice much later in life.


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## csirl (17 Oct 2008)

One of the allegations is that he applied for, received and travelled on an Indonesian passport as an adult.


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## Duke of Marmalade (17 Oct 2008)

[broken link removed] Interesting chart on how the perceived respective chances have changed on Betfair. Obama long the favorite nearly got caught when the pig in lipstick first came out of the stye, but she has created such a stink since then that McCain is bacon. Also note that Paddypower has paid out on Obama, without waiting for the result.


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## csirl (20 Oct 2008)

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78111

An Injuction is now being sought to get Obama off the ballot paper before the election takes place.


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## Sylvester3 (5 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=78111
> 
> An Injuction is now being sought to get Obama off the ballot paper before the election takes place.



Congrats to Obama. Lets see if he can actually do something with his mandate!

P.S. Well, there will be egg on someones face now - either the iconoclast taking the court case or the entire intelligence services of America......


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## csirl (5 Nov 2008)

America's now in line for a long long long recession - Obama's protectionist attitude, naive economics and wealth distribution policies will ensure this.

Very bad news for Ireland. He's promised a $3k penalty per annum (in form of tax) for every job a US owned company has located overseas.


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## Sylvester3 (5 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> Very bad news for Ireland. He's promised a $3k penalty per annum (in form of tax) for every job a US owned company has located overseas.



Ok.... umm.... YIKES!!!

Palin for 2012!


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## Purple (5 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> He's promised a $3k penalty per annum (in form of tax) for every job a US owned company has located overseas.


That's a stupid and unworkable idea.


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## Sylvester3 (5 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> That's a stupid and unworkable idea.



Phew! So its not going to hit me in the pocket then? Obama for 2012, so!


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## Remix (5 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> Very bad news for Ireland. He's promised a $3k penalty per annum (in form of tax) for every job a US owned company has located overseas.


 

He could go further than this because some of the Irish set-ups that have attracted negative publicity in the US involve companies here with very few employees and huge revenues.

e.g. the case of Sandisk reporting a billion dollars in revenue in Ireland with just 4 employees.


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## csirl (5 Nov 2008)

To remain competitive, the Irish based multinationals will have to take 3k off the wages of all of their employees. If you are working for one of these companies, the effect is that 3k will be taken from your pay packet and given to some unemployed American who needs the money so he can pay back the troubled bank who game him a "ninja" mortgage.


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## Purple (5 Nov 2008)

What, in this context, is classified as an “American job”?
If an American company buys an Irish company and then closes down its US based department that used to do more or less the same thing will that count?
What if they outsource their call centre function to a different company based in Ireland, will that count?
What if they move 10 jobs here but then employ an extra 100 people locally after the set-up? 
What if it’s a joint venture?
What if they register the company here (like IBM did)?

There’s no clear way to define what an outsourced job is.


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## csirl (5 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> What, in this context, is classified as an “American job”?
> If an American company buys an Irish company and then closes down its US based department that used to do more or less the same thing will that count?
> What if they outsource their call centre function to a different company based in Ireland, will that count?
> What if they move 10 jobs here but then employ an extra 100 people locally after the set-up?
> ...


 
As you can see, Mr. Obama has really thought out his election promises in great detail


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## Caveat (5 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> As you can see, Mr. Obama has really thought out his election promises in great detail


 
Was it literally an election promise though?  

Plenty of speculation about an Obama win being bad (from an Irish view) for US investment but did he actually make any clear statements/promises?


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## Sunny (5 Nov 2008)

Caveat said:


> Was it literally an election promise though?
> 
> Plenty of speculation about an Obama win being bad (from an Irish view) for US investment but did he actually make any clear statements/promises?


 
It was a electoral soundbite. Various administrations on both sides of the house have been trying to change tax laws (especially the tax deferral of profits) regarding multinationals for decades but have never managed it. John F Kennedy tried it in the 1960's 

Obama never gave details on what he would do only vague threats about ending tax breaks. His own economic advisor only said that they would work with Congress. It was their version of the smaller class sizes promise here!!


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## Remix (5 Nov 2008)

Campaigns are filled with high-falutin waffle so it remains to be seen what actually gets changed in this area.

For what it's worth a senior economic advisor to Obama, Robert Shapiro , spoke in Dublin yesterday



> Shapiro said there is a “significant possibility” an Obama administration will change the current tax rules, under which US companies pay tax on overseas earnings only when profits are repatriated.
> .
> .
> "Ireland must wean itself from dependence on FDI. A low corporate taxation rate is not the most important factor moving forward, it goes beyond that."


http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1015171.shtml


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## Caveat (5 Nov 2008)

Someone (American) was speaking on _The Last Word_ yesterday evening too - didn't catch who - and was playing down the idea that low corporation tax was the most significant lure for US companies.  

He suggested instead that US companies are attracted by "standard of education, great country to live & work in, gateway to Europe, English language etc".

All sounded a bit too much like basic placation to me though.


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## csirl (5 Nov 2008)

McCain is the Chairman of the Irish American Republicans organisation (not the same one that SF uses to raise funds  ). Expressed his admiration for our tax policies in his debates and would have been a lot more favourable to us.

I bet Obama couldnt even find Ireland on a map of the world.


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## Sylvester3 (5 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> McCain is the Chairman of the Irish American Republicans organisation (not the same one that SF uses to raise funds  ). Expressed his admiration for our tax policies in his debates and would have been a lot more favourable to us.
> 
> I bet Obama couldnt even find Ireland on a map of the world.



Obama has an Irish great grandpaw on his mothers side - there was a thing about it on RTE the other night. They was a lot of support for him in his 'hometown' of .

And a little google search threw up the following fact sheet on Obama's [broken link removed].

It doesn't say wether he can point it out on a map though.


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## Pique318 (5 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> M
> I bet Obama couldnt even find Ireland on a map of the world.


Seriously ? I'll take that bet !


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## dereko1969 (5 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> America's now in line for a long long long recession - Obama's protectionist attitude, naive economics and wealth distribution policies will ensure this.
> 
> Very bad news for Ireland. He's promised a $3k penalty per annum (in form of tax) for every job a US owned company has located overseas.


 
totally untrue, he's offering a credit for companies that create jobs in the US see here from his website
*American Jobs:* Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 to provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military. 

But why let actual facts get in the way!


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## Purple (5 Nov 2008)

dereko1969 said:


> totally untrue, he's offering a credit for companies that create jobs in the US see here from his website
> *American Jobs:* Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 to provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.
> 
> But why let actual facts get in the way!


Tax breaks are already available for most of that, some states rightly give more to companies that employ ex-military.


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## csirl (5 Nov 2008)

dereko1969 said:


> totally untrue, he's offering a credit for companies that create jobs in the US see here from his website
> *American Jobs:* Barack Obama introduced the Patriot Employer Act of 2007 to provide a tax credit to companies that maintain or increase the number of full-time workers in America relative to those outside the US; maintain their corporate headquarters in America; pay decent wages; prepare workers for retirement; provide health insurance; and support employees who serve in the military.
> 
> But why let actual facts get in the way!


 
All bad for Ireland. Anything that encourages a US owned multinational to move jobs from Ireland to the US is bad.

When Ireland was raised in the debates by McCain, Obama gave a very negative reaction.


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## csirl (5 Nov 2008)

Sylvester3 said:


> Obama has an Irish great grandpaw on his mothers side - there was a thing about it on RTE the other night. They was a lot of support for him in his 'hometown' of .
> 
> And a little google search threw up the following fact sheet on Obama's [broken link removed].
> 
> It doesn't say wether he can point it out on a map though.


 
A load of rubbish put out by a PR company. Bet Obama never even saw the fact sheet.

What has Obama ever done for Ireland? We have proof that he's very much against US companies locating here. Where has he ever genuinely given any support to this country or promoted policies that benefit Ireland? And I mean coming from him personally, not the "party line". 

Anyone who has a notion that Obama will be good for Ireland is going to be very dissappointed.


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## csirl (5 Nov 2008)

In hindsight, McCain should have had Condi Rice on the ticket along side him.


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## Purple (5 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> In hindsight, McCain should have had Condi Rice on the ticket along side him.



I agree; very smart woman, loads of experience and keeps the right-wing happy.


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## Remix (5 Nov 2008)

Personally I think the problem was McCain.

Oddly enough, some of the states that went for Obama, at the same time voted for some very conservative initiatives.

California & Florida both passed bans on gay marraiges. All in all, voters passed all 11 bans on gay marraige that came before 11 states.

As someone pointed out, America is not as conservative as it was 4 years ago and it isn't as liberal as it looks this morning.

It's as if millions of key voters saw Obama as the better candidate _when compared_ to McCain but their vote wasn't an endorsement of liberal ideology.


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## Vanilla (6 Nov 2008)

Will Obama not still have to keep the Irish companies employing in the US happy? Presume the lobbyists will pursue this line. There are apparently at least half the amount of americans employed by Irish companies as there are the inverse.


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## csirl (6 Nov 2008)

Obama spent his childhood and formative years in Kenya, Indonesia and Hawaii. About as far removed from Ireland as you can be both geographically and culturally.


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## Sunny (6 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> Obama spent his childhood and formative years in Kenya, Indonesia and Hawaii. About as far removed from Ireland as you can be both geographically and culturally.


 
Who cares? I doubt George Bush could pick out Ireland on a map either before he came he (probably not afterwards either) and he didn't exactly seem culturally close to Ireland either!! 

It doesn't really matter who the President is anyway as long as Ireland can continue to successfully lobby on the Hill which they have been very good at over the years.


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## Mpsox (6 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> America's now in line for a long long long recession - Obama's protectionist attitude, naive economics and wealth distribution policies will ensure this.
> 
> Very bad news for Ireland. He's promised a $3k penalty per annum (in form of tax) for every job a US owned company has located overseas.


 
America is alrady in an economic slump and this had nothing to with Obama, rather it's a reflection of going too far in letting the market decide and not having sufficient controls in place for financial institutions, plus a small fortune being spent on a largely pointless war

I'm struggling to see how giving tax breaks to the lower/middle income as opposed to higher income earners(which is one of the cornerstones of his economic policies) will contribute to a recession. Surely if the bulk of Americans have more money in their pocket, they will be inclined to spend more and that can only benifit businesses and exporters to the US

In terms of his $3k tax, agree that is not good news as it makes Ireland even less cost effective then other countries such as Poland etc. I think the days of large American manufacturing companies basing in Ireland is over, instead we will see smaller operations where the focus is more on highly skilled and trained employees(such as R&D facilites) as opposed to production lines

One thing that may help Irish export companies is the recent strenthening of the $. Were it to move another 5-10%, it could make a difference


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## Pique318 (6 Nov 2008)

csirl, you think that Obama is going to cause the sky to fall.
If McCain got in, I think the recession would deepen much more regardless of his actions. The thought of a GWB extension would kill the markets (even though I admire McCain and the grace and respect he has for others, esp. Obama, to the dismay of some extreme card-carrying Republicans).

Yes, we know, and always knew that a democrat govt would be protectionist, and Obama will follow on from that. No harm to him, charity begins at home and you can't argue with that. When America does well, so do we. If Dell lay off staff, it'll no doubt be blamed on him, even though it has been mooted for quite a while now.

All in all, I'm delighted that Obama is El Presidente, as it will hopefully improve Americas confidence in themselves, improve others opinions towards them, prevent (or at least reduce) the antagonism and war-mongering that America has shown towards other countries and overall result in markets not having of a panic attack over 4 more years of republicanism.


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## dereko1969 (6 Nov 2008)

Pique318 said:


> Yes, we know, and always knew that a democrat govt would be protectionist


 
How many American companies set up in ireland between 1993 and 2000 when Clinton was in power? While csirl goes on and on like chicken licken he/she should realise that a safer world for all of us, which is what an obama presidency will mean, is good for ireland.
the fact that he/she has ignored the fact that the 'tax' isn't a tax it's a credit for jobs being created in the usa and has been in for nearly 2 years already and hasn't led to a flood of jobs to the us. you should just accept that mccain lost and that the sky isn't going to fall in.


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## rabbit (7 Nov 2008)

csirl said:


> Obama spent his childhood and formative years in Kenya, Indonesia and Hawaii. About as far removed from Ireland as you can be both geographically and culturally.


 
I fear Obama will not make a good President, time will tell.  The other candidate was not perfect but I think he had more experience and would have been a steadier hand at the wheel.   Most white people in America voted for McCain.   96% of blacks voted for Obama, which suggests they voted for someone because of their colour ?       I believe people should have vote for whoever would have made the best president / person to help lead the world out of the financial crisis we are in , rather than because of their skin colour.  I wish him luck, he will need it, with the mess the world is in.


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