# Upgrade from Clerical Officer to ASO



## Clare12 (17 Aug 2018)

I have recently been promoted to grade 4, placed on the first LSI of the ASO. I am at the top of clerical officer for more than three years, this means I have moved to the next nearest point on ASO scale plus two more increments. I have been informed by HR I will receive the 2nd LSI in 6 years, should this not be in three years. Would appreciate any advise as I don't seem to be getting anywhere with HR on this.


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## Slim (17 Aug 2018)

Hi Clare. Congratulations. By my calculations, you should be entering the GIV scale one increment below the 1st LSI. Circ. 10/71 states; "..where the minimum of the new salary scale is less than existing pay, the officer may enter the new scale at the point nearest but not below existing pay plus one increment..." Based on scales at 1/1/18 that would place you one below the 1st LSI.


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## Clare12 (17 Aug 2018)

There is also a condition where someone who is at the top of their scale for three years or more, then they move to the nearest point which is above their current salary plus two increments, this would place me on the first LSI, which is where I have been placed, don't understand why I have to wait 6 years for the next and final Long sevice increment.


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## Slim (17 Aug 2018)

I believe that only applies if the minimum of the new scale is greater than the max of the current scale. In the case of GIII to IV, that would not be the case. But, there has been some shifting of sands in PS salary scales lately so I may be wrong. HR should explain this definitively. Slim


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## Clare12 (17 Aug 2018)

Thanks for follow up to my post, would you mind elaborating on your last post, is this in reply to my 6 year query or to where I'm placed on the current 4 point, do you think where I'm placed is incorrect,


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## Clare12 (17 Aug 2018)

Can anyone direct me to Circular EL 5/67 (section 7). Seemingly this explains the reasoning behind remaining on first LSI for 6 years on promotion to higher grade, I can't for the life of me locate this circular.


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## newtothis (17 Aug 2018)

I don't mean to be rude, but the espression "all Greek to me" springs to mind on reading this thread - what could it all possibly mean?


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## Clare12 (17 Aug 2018)

I can well understand why you think it's all Greek, why things can't be explained in plain English by HR departments , or at least when referencing circulars, one would have easy access to them online so one can establish how these decisions are arrived at.
P.S. you need to be multilingual to work in the Public Sector. We are a very talented bunch. Hence the reason you don't follow the above.


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## Slim (19 Aug 2018)

Clare12 said:


> Thanks for follow up to my post, would you mind elaborating on your last post, is this in reply to my 6 year query or to where I'm placed on the current 4 point, do you think where I'm placed is incorrect,


Both. I think you should be placed on the max point of GIV, so you should serve 3 yrs on it, 3 yrs on LSI1, therefore onto LSI2 in 6 yrs. I also cannot locate circular E.L. 5/67 but 34/77 keeps popping up. This has reminded me how complicated and bureaucratic PS circulars are. Your HR people should be able to explain this clearly, though.


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## Paul42 (6 Sep 2019)

Hi Clare, have a read of Circular 08/2019. I think you'll find it clears things up for you. https://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2019/08.pdf


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## Sunny (9 Sep 2019)

My God. We must employ thousands of people to write those circulars alone!! Crazy stuff....


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## Leper (9 Sep 2019)

Not many know how points-of-scale/increments are arrived at on an upgrade in the Civil/Public Service. If you think the foregoing is goobledegook then stop reading now because I will confuse you more. (Unions largely appear to ignore the situation).

Let's take a simple promotion or regrading. Starting Position:- Mary is on a point of the scale in the grade she now serves. (i) She is working towards her next increment in the old grade and deserves credit. -Deferred Increment. (ii) It's not a given that future increment awards will be on the date of promotion. (iii) Depending but likely the amount of pay on the new grade will be off-point (i.e. an amount between two points of the new scale). (iv) The next increment will get Mary on a hard point of the new scale, but she will not have to wait a year for this. (v) If Mary has spent 3 years or more on the max of the old scale then the matter is relatively simple and she is awarded the next point or second next point of the new scale and her next increment will be one year after the date of promotion.

In the Public Service there is a mathematical calculation for each upgrade/promotion. Three people in the same grade and being promoted on the same date can have different starting points on promotion. There are factors that must be taken into account e.g. current pay, time of that point of current pay, time worked in the old grade to next increment. In some areas these factors are ignored and the upgraded person is just place on the second next point of the new scale and date of increment = date of promotion.

I'm retired nearly two years, but somewhere I have the terms of calculation of regradings/upgradings/promotions. If I come across them, I'll post more here. The regulations governing are a left-over from the British Post Office (Victorian Times).


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## cappucino (1 Feb 2020)

Clare12 said:


> I have recently been promoted to grade 4, placed on the first LSI of the ASO. I am at the top of clerical officer for more than three years, this means I have moved to the next nearest point on ASO scale plus two more increments. I have been informed by HR I will receive the 2nd LSI in 6 years, should this not be in three years. Would appreciate any advise as I don't seem to be getting anywhere with HR on this.


Hi Clare I know that your post is a little while back but i was wondering if you can assist. I am in the same position, well almost. I am moving from Grade 3 LSI to Grade 4 / ASO. Our internal procedure points out that you have been on max if scale/fixed salary for over 3 years, not only  you move up to new scale one point and above plus one increment like for any promotion but you also get an additional increment. As point 8 is maximum on scale before LSI I should move like you did  to LSI 1 of Grade 4 / ASO scale. My organisation is saying however that I remain on point 8 and will be on it for 2 years duration instead of 3 (that s my additional increment they are saying) Basically I am not getting any extra pay for that 2nd increment outlined in the procedure. They 're saying I can't go to LSI 1 as you have to be on last point of scale for 3 years. I wonder now 1) what has been decided for you about 3 or 6 years for the LSI 1 point 2) if anybody has any circular info or views in relation to my current dilemma. Also the promotion is specific purpose so I won't be in that position for more than a year ie won't get benefit of shorter increment anniversary date... Thank you.


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## Leper (2 Feb 2020)

Cappucino. The terms may have changed since Clare12 posted. Have a chat with HR and be prepared to challenge anything that is said. I've seen promotions such as yours calculated differently as far as payment is concerned. HR unless they are hiding something will have to supply back up information. If you're working in the HSE, worse again, I've seen several different opinions of what is written on identical promotions.


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## cappucino (2 Feb 2020)

Leper said:


> Cappucino. The terms may have changed since Clare12 posted. Have a chat with HR and be prepared to challenge anything that is said. I've seen promotions such as yours calculated differently as far as payment is concerned. HR unless they are hiding something will have to supply back up information. If you're working in the HSE, worse again, I've seen several different opinions of what is written on identical promotions.


Thank you for your reply Leper, appreciated. . I am having active talks with HR at the moment to say the least. Also having HR staff on same grade making decisions is not ideal  I have also been told by another party that you can be put off-scale and there s a specific calculation for it. I am trying to source government circulars to back up my claims. Fingers cross it will be resolved positively and to my interest. Thanks again.


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## Purple (19 Feb 2020)

Leper said:


> I'm retired nearly two years, but somewhere I have the terms of calculation of regradings/upgradings/promotions. If I come across them, I'll post more here. *The regulations governing are a left-over from the British Post Office (Victorian Times)*.


Really? I should be surprised but...


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## Leper (19 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> Really? I should be surprised but...


It's nearly 6 months since I posted that. Are you that far behind?


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## Purple (19 Feb 2020)

Leper said:


> It's nearly 6 months since I posted that. Are you that far behind?


Yes, yes I am.
How's sunny Spain?


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## cappucino (9 Aug 2020)

cappucino said:


> Thank you for your reply Leper, appreciated. . I am having active talks with HR at the moment to say the least. Also having HR staff on same grade making decisions is not ideal  I have also been told by another party that you can be put off-scale and there s a specific calculation for it. I am trying to source government circulars to back up my claims. Fingers cross it will be resolved positively and to my interest. Thanks again.


Hi Leper,  can I ask you about what you think of this:  After being put on the 2nd increment towards Long Service Increment 1 of the new grade, the promotion ended and I returned to my normal job.  I have now been appointed permanently to the same higher grade but it seems HR won't take account of previous promotion of a few months at the same grade to apply incremental credit.   So for that initial promotion:
- the internal procedure quotes for anybody on 3 years on same salary, should get equal or above increment + 2 increments.  This gives me no additional pay for the application of the second increment as it is 1st year of 3 years leading to LSI1 and equals to same pay to to staff at end of lower scale who did not have 3 years at same salary.
- in addition to not having extra pay, the time spent on the 1st promotion is not taken into account for point placing of my permanent position. 
Would you say this is a gross anomaly of internal procedure and the two scales at hand?  An older procedure refers to staff on LSI2 should get the LSI2 of the next scale plus one increment.  As my scale only have one single LSI, should this be considered as LSI2?  I cannot find the circular for pay on promotion I would be grateful for your feedback on the various points that I have raised.  Thanks in advance.


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