# Bulding with SIFs Structurally Insulated Panels/Frames?



## mohainle (27 May 2009)

Dear all,
Has anyone had experience of building with Structurally Insulated Panels/Frames?

I've been reading and researching them recently and it looks too good to be true (i.e. build time, insulation levels etc.).

In your experience what are the pros and cons? 

What companies have you found the best to deal with?

Regards,
Mohainle


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## galwaytt (27 May 2009)

*Re: Bulding with SIFs*

SIP panels.

First, vested interest: we're the only company in Ireland who make them, and we install them.

References available from clients upon request, projects complete/underway, available to view.

As for Pro's:
Class leading airtightness
Low u-values
Speed of build
Huge strength, giving great Design possibilities and capabilities
Quality of build

Cons?
Doesn't use much energy to heat - energy providers will hate you !
Builder's / clients need to be organised


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## MixuPat (28 May 2009)

*Re: Bulding with SIFs*

Hi GalwayTT

I am interested in SIP Build also. One of the cons may be the cost of a SIP Build. How does this compare to say Timber Build or Block Build?
If the frame of the house in SIP is more expensive, can this be gained back on the final cost per sq ft of the house.

Thanks
Mixupat


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## galwaytt (29 May 2009)

*Re: Bulding with SIFs*

Yes, the system up front can is more expensive than a TF, but it is also considerably stronger (you can have conc screed on std panels, upstairs), much much quieter (party walls quieter than concrete, for example....) and closer to being finished than a TF (we can have conduits for elec, ventilation, hoover systems in internal panels), so yes, it can come back to you.

The roof in particular is the system's forté.  You get a full sealed, insulated, strong and silent warm roof system, as standard.  No cut timber (so no joints or waste), no wall plate to seal, no crawl spaces to seal.  Dormers, usually a nighmare, are actually easier for us, and inherently better built than a cut roof.   The easiest roof anyone will ever put solar panels on as well, that's for sure.

A builder down here is quoting from 86-109/sq ft, for a turn-key SIP house, finished with UFH, solar, hi performance glazing, tiled, kitchen, wooden floors, paths, treatment plant, paths, painted & decorated, drive and kerbing (chippings, not tarmac ! ). (iirc, that house had 14k kitchen, 25k plumbing/mech, 30k windows, so a good spec.)  The variation the per sq ft price comes from the design of your build.  The more complex, the more expensive (same as for everyone else).  Inherently simpler designs are better value.  Put the money in the performance, not the weirdness, that's my 0.02..........

Prices for our kit include all design, manufacture, delivery and erection charges, including the crane (fixed price), and we dont' use subbies.

Me, I think that's very reasonable considering the huge peformance you get. Put it this way, one of our houses was blower tested (in Co Meath inside the last two weeks. Without ANY plasterboard inside, no front or rear door (temp plywood ones, taped in), key joints taped, window opes taped to SIP frame, conc floor screed in, but no floor coverings, NO airtightness membrane - the test came in at 0.9m3/hr/m2. Now, remember, that's the performance inherent in our delivered panel. His assessor expects to achieve a further 20% upon finishing out (and fitting the doors !).  That's pure passive house values.

Now, if you are self-building, I'm sure it would come in cheaper finished per sq ft, but some things do greatly distort the price of houses, sometimes. Huge mega-expensive kitchens, or tiles, even heating systems. (I see people spending 30/40/50k all the time.....). Practically, those houses are way over-heated.....one, near us, has UFH up and down (conc floors on GF and FF), open fire, solar AND geo.  In a 2.5k sq ft house ?

Self-build would also have the advantage of having a lot of the 'big stuff' sorted, so if you are into DIY-ing your build, at least you can do the 'interesting' or 'nice' jobs, and details (which a lot of self builders are more interested in.)

What's not to like  ? 

More info if you like - if it's an issue for mods, let's take it to PM, or check my profile for more info


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## Tommy B (29 May 2009)

*Re: Bulding with SIFs*

MMMMM Galwaytt, thanks for the info sounds very interesting, i am looking at self build, i want a passive, high rated, bespoke turn key house, i have been searching the web but not too many companies are giving the full package!! passive.ie looks impressive to me so far but i will give you a look in also.....

Thanks again
T.


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## tomred (9 Jan 2011)

Hi,

Just wondering if anybody could supply some more feedback in relation to this building method. Like the original OP I am researching building methods and this one seems to tick all the boxes. Is it a common method of building in ireland and are there cons that have been missed above.

Many Thanks
Tomred


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## onq (9 Jan 2011)

Hi Galway TT,

I beging to see why you're such a populat fellow over on boards.ie 

Could you -

(i) post a link to your website and some details so I can take a look at them.

(ii) hazard a guess as to why there are no competitors, is it a franchise thing, or have I read your post incorrectly?

TIA

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                       as a defence or      support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should            legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                       Real Life with   rights    to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on       the                    matters    at           hand.


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## Cottier (10 Jan 2011)

also researching construction options. Anyone tried using SIP/Fs for extending an older structure (in this case, side extension to an old stone wall cottage)? Have the impression pre-manufactured framing would be more suited to green field sites and could lead to more troubleshooting problems in practice. I've no expert knowledge.

PS. ...and then thatching the roof...?


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## onq (10 Jan 2011)

I've read threads on other forums discussing this and possible one or two here.
The difficulty is the interface of the construction where they join.
They really are apples and pears.

I would be tempted to separate the two different constructions with a vented lobby.
Insulate the traditional construction using appropriate methods.
Construct the SIP in accordance with the approved details.
Any variance in performance is dealt with by the lobby.

I'd be tempted to express the difference.
A modern addition to a trad block.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon          as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal  action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in          Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the  matters    at      hand.


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## Cottier (11 Jan 2011)

I wouldn't want to hi-jack the original thread but that is indeed the problem. In our case we would be renovating the old stone cottage with lime render and thatch but struggling to decide on best method and materials for the new extension.


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## Muffet (22 Jan 2011)

Hi,

I too am interested in the idea of SIF's (for a new build) and from this and other threads seem to offer a lot of advantages namely:

1. built in factory conditions so no issues with poorly fitted insulation etc
2. Smaller cavity & able to get more insulation into a smaller space
3. Air tightness
4. Roof appear to be easier to insulate
5. Faster build

There are others but I see the above as the main ones. For the sake of balance / research I am trying to understand the downsides. To this end I would appreciate some input. From my limited understanding I have put down the following:

1. It is more expensive (albeit this is all relative i.e. you get what you pay for.)
2. It limits the changes that you can make on site.
3. The traditional block build allows the heat to be absorbed by the block & released back to the house over a longer length of time i.e. the house will not get too hot or too cold. Conversely because there is no inner block to absorb the heat is it correct to say that a SIP build house is more likely to overheat?

As above this is purely from my limited knowledge & purely for the purposes of understanding fully.

Any input most welcome
Thanks


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## onq (23 Jan 2011)

Cottier said:


> I wouldn't want to hi-jack the original thread but that is indeed the problem. In our case we would be renovating the old stone cottage with lime render and thatch but struggling to decide on best method and materials for the new extension.




This is always the problem when old and new meet.
There seems to be very little room for "reference" in architecture these days.

Many people shy away from it, considering it mere pastiche, but architecture prior to say 1860 was redolent with reference using the materials of the day.

Its only in the past 100 years that people have "bought into" the modern movement.
In the past there were several "revivals" of older building forms and languages, including neo gothic [British houses of parliament] neo classical [St. Paul's Cathedral] and arts and crafts movement, which related more to the vernacular.

Modernists are so full of it at hte moment that they don't see that their bare-bones approach is just another way of building and rapidly being overtaken even on commercial projects by buildings brining back curved forms, colour, and texture into design.

You could always do a circular [ring fort reference] extension and link to the older rectangular form with its pitched roof, via a link.

A modernist reference to an ancient form linking to a vernacular.
You might win and award!


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                        as a defence or       support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should             legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                        Real Life with    rights    to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on        the                    matters    at           hand.


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