# Cant meet child Maintenance payments of €683/mth. I will unilateraly reduce payment!



## mcl

I have two children from a previous relationship and I currently have a child maintenance order against me through the circuit court. The order is for €75 per child per week, the order also directs that I pay €200 towards "back to school" costs and an additional €200 at Christmas. 

In summary that equates to €683 per month.

I am no longer in a position to pay the amount ordered based on the following reasons:

Pay cuts were imposed by my employer in Jan 2010
My wife took redundancy in September and is now in full time education and receives no benefit.
We are expecting a new baby in April.
 I understand that I have the option to apply to the courts with a view to obtaining a variation order on the amount I am currently paying.

However as this may take a considerable amount of time to come before the courts, I have no option but to reduce the amount I am paying in the interim. (I consistently exceed my bank overdraft limit and I am charged for every transaction I make, *NOTE: [/B ]these are day to day living expenses that are incurring these charges)

In doing this I know that I will fall into arrears on the basis that I cannot meet the ordered amount.

I have no doubt that the children's mother will take me back to court (The Circuit Court I assume?!) to recoup the arrears and I am wondering what view the court will take of the fact that I unilaterally reduced the amount I was paying due to financial stresses. 

Does anyone have any experience of such circumstances and can anyone suggest how I should approach this as the relationship with the children's mother has completely broken down.*


----------



## DADOF3

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

I am in similar circumstances myself at the moment.

I have an order of 80 euro and at the beginning of the year starting paying 50 euro a week. 

So far nothing has happened but that is due to the legislation regarding maintenance payments in the process of being changed. 

I have two other children and cannot afford to spend 80 euro a week on each of them so I dont see why I should pay this for my first child. 

My other children are not second class citizens. 

Sorry i am much help but i feel for you.


----------



## mcl

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

Thanks for the response! Yes those are my wife's sentiments exactly i.e. all dependants should receive "equal" financial support. 

You mentioned that legislation relating to maintenance is changing, what is this specifically and what relevance might it have in this case? Why would this stop your ex hauling you back into court? 

In relation to your own situation, would you and your wife consider getting a maintenance order put in place for your two children to the tune of €50 each? In doing so you would hope that any court considering your case would not disregard their needs .


----------



## Dachshund

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

The District Court and the Circuit Court have concurrent jurisdiction over maintenance payments. You can contact your local court office for further assistance. Further details are available [broken link removed], just follow the links.

Either yourself or your ex-wife can go to court to vary the maintenance order. You don't have to wait to be called back to court.

If you act unilaterally in reducing maintenance, when you do go to court bring as much evidence of your inability to pay with you, eg. payslips showing the decreased income, bank statements etc. The courts have to take your changed circumstances into account. 

Usually a new partner is considered to be an aid in terms of earning capability and the ability to share living costs, but you have stated that she is pregnant and in full term education, any evidence of same should be brought to the courts attention (not necessarily bringing her as an exhibit!). Your new baby will also considered to be a dependent child and will have to be taken into consideration by the court

The legislation concerning attachment and committal for debts (imprisonment) has been suspended as it was called into question by a Supreme Court judgment last year. You can no longer be imprisoned for non-payment of a debt. However you can still be brought back to court for payment of arrears of maintenance. Typically where an order for maintenance has been made through the court up to six months of arrears can be recovered. 

Best of luck.


----------



## DADOF3

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

The legislation is being changed so that the onus will be on the creditor to prove you can afford to pay the maintenance, so far has been the other way around. This is due to the law being changed that you cannot be jailed for not paying debts. Since last summer warrants cannot be issued for unpaid maintenance so my ex had my days i spend with my child reduced. For the moment there is nothing she can do about it. I was naive when i went to court and didnt have a solicitor. I also have to pay extra for school and xmas even though i buy for the child myself. I have begun keeping receipts for any money spent on the child when in my care.


----------



## GreenQueen

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



mcl said:


> However as this may take a considerable amount of time to come before the courts, I have no option but to reduce the amount I am paying in the interim. (I consistently exceed my bank overdraft limit and I am charged for every transaction I make, *NOTE: [/B ]these are day to day living expenses that are incurring these charges)
> 
> In doing this I know that I will fall into arrears on the basis that I cannot meet the ordered amount.
> 
> I have no doubt that the Children's mother will take me back to court (The Circuit Court I assume?!) to recoup the arrears and I am wondering what view the court will take of the fact that I unilaterally reduced the amount I was paying due to financial stresses.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience of such circumstances and can anyone suggest how I should approach this as the relationship with the Children's mother has completely broken down.*


*

You should apply straight away to the courts for a variation of the maintenance.  If you cannot afford to continue to pay the maintenance at its' currrent level then you will be liable to pay the arrears you build up between reducing the amount and getting to court.

Have you considered that if you stop paying the maintenance amount; that your children's mother may end up in a financial mess?  Have you made your own attempts to reduce your outgoing bills and reduce your own financial burden?  These are the types of questions you need to be asking yourself.

You should write to your children's mother and advise her that you are no longer in a position to meet the maintenance, also that you have applied for a variation.  Ask her to meet with you to come to an amicable arrangement in the interim so that she doesn't end up in financial ruin which would affect your children.*


----------



## mcl

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

Thanks for the response GreenQueen but I hasten to addd that I think you are missing my point. If I do not intervene now and continue on the current path, I will myself end up in a finacial mess. I am forced to consider this action based on a change in my circumstances. I cannot legislate for economic changes. What would happen if I lost my Job?! Something would also have to give, thats what. 

The fact is I am falling further into debt based purley on the fact that I have to pay to live, no extravagance, no luxury. I also need to condiser our new baby, she needs to be provided for equally. There has to be a balance.


----------



## lightswitch

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

With respect MCL it takes a lot more than €80 per week to maintain a child. If you can not afford the children you have why do you continue to have more. 

The solution is simple though you may find it harsh, either stop having children you cant afford or work harder to support them.


----------



## SillyBilly

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



lightswitch said:


> With respect MCL it takes a lot more than €80 per week to maintain a child. If you can not afford the children you have why do you continue to have more.


 
I believe maintenance payments are intended to cover one half the cost of maintaing the child for a week, with the other parent also expected to contribute financially...


----------



## GreenQueen

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



mcl said:


> Thanks for the response GreenQueen but I hasten to addd that I think you are missing my point. If I do not intervene now and continue on the current path, I will myself end up in a finacial mess. I am forced to consider this action based on a change in my circumstances. I cannot legislate for economic changes. What would happen if I lost my Job?! Something would also have to give, thats what.
> 
> The fact is I am falling further into debt based purley on the fact that I have to pay to live, no extravagance, no luxury. I also need to condiser our new baby, she needs to be provided for equally. There has to be a balance.




I definitely haven't missed your point.  Your baby has not arrived yet & is due in April.  If you lodge for a variance of maintenance now you will have your case heard by the end of April/beginning of May which gives you plenty of time.

If you reduce the maintenance now your children's mother will be able to apply for arrears by the time the court date comes around anyway.  You will still have to pay the amount.  The simpler thing to do is to pay it until you reach the court date - which is what you HAVE to do according to your maintenance order.  

Do you think that taking the law into your own hands before you reach the courts will do you any favours with the judge?


----------



## lightswitch

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



SillyBilly said:


> lightswitch said:
> 
> 
> 
> With respect MCL it takes a lot more than €80 per week to maintain a child. If you can not afford the children you have why do you continue to have more.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I believe maintenance payments are intended to cover one half the cost of maintaing the child for a week, with the other parent also expected to contribute financially...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well good luck to anyone who can put a roof over a childs head and pay for food, clothes, education, utility bills, child care, health benefits, activities and all the other associated costs.
> 
> If only we all could hand over €80 for the upkeep of each of our children how well off we would all be!!
Click to expand...


----------



## chrisboy

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



lightswitch said:


> SillyBilly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well good luck to anyone who can put a roof over a childs head and pay for food, clothes, education, utility bills, child care, health benefits, activities and all the other associated costs.
> 
> If only we all could hand over €80 for the upkeep of each of our children how well off we would all be!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He pays 683 euro for 2 kids, matched by her 683 euro, plus 300 euro a month childrens allowance.. Thats over 1600 a month for the kids..
Click to expand...


----------



## lightswitch

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



chrisboy said:


> lightswitch said:
> 
> 
> 
> He pays 683 euro for 2 kids, matched by her 683 euro, plus 300 euro a month childrens allowance.. Thats over 1600 a month for the kids..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats not a lot of money Chrisboy, she still would have all the items on my last post to pay for.  I pity the kids.  Like anything else in life if you cant afford them then don't have more of them.  Simple stuff really.
Click to expand...


----------



## DADOF3

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

Lightswitch, i am guessing you are on the other side of the fence on this one. I agree with Chrisboy that is more than enough to support two children and as far as rent and utility bills go these would still have to be paid even if she didnt have children. Just because the father is not left destitute doesn't mean he's not doing his fair share. Mcl whatever the outcome of this take comfort in the fact that one day you will have an independent relationship with your children and like me you will no longer have to deal with the woman on the broom!


----------



## UFC

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



lightswitch said:


> Thats not a lot of money Chrisboy, she still would have all the items on my last post to pay for. I pity the kids. Like anything else in life if you cant afford them then don't have more of them. Simple stuff really.


 
You're telling me a child can't live on €800 a month? Give me a break.

I'm an adult and I can live on €400 per month.


----------



## Bronte

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



UFC said:


> I'm an adult and I can live on €400 per month.


 
Does this include rent, utilities, running a car, clothing and food?


----------



## truthseeker

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



Bronte said:


> Does this include rent, utilities, running a car, clothing and food?


 
And school fees, books, clothing, footwear, activities money, doctor bills, dentist bills, etc?


----------



## DADOF3

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

When a parent dies their estate is split equally among all their children regardless of whether they were the custodial parent or not. Why does this not apply during their life. The irish legal system is flawed in so many ways.


----------



## fababby

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



lightswitch said:


> chrisboy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thats not a lot of money Chrisboy, she still would have all the items on my last post to pay for. I pity the kids. Like anything else in life if you cant afford them then don't have more of them. Simple stuff really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1
Click to expand...


----------



## DADOF3

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

Children of school going age do not require full time childcare and if the mothers cannot cope i suggest they hand the kids over to the fathers who i am sure would manage just fine with that money. After all they are with the other children.


----------



## Dachshund

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

If the OP wants to get an idea of how judges view arrears of maintenance I suggest that he reads the Family Law Court Reports available on the Courts website. [broken link removed]are very informative. However, these cases took place before the suspension of imprisonment for debts.


----------



## Buddyg

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

This thread is the best contraceptive I have ever witnessed. Yikes!


----------



## UFC

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



Bronte said:


> Does this include rent, utilities, running a car, clothing and food?


 
The child is living with a parent who is already paying rent for herself.


----------



## UFC

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*



truthseeker said:


> And school fees, books, clothing, footwear, activities money, doctor bills, dentist bills, etc?


 
That's what the €800 is for.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the examples you gave (school books, etc.) are once a year sort of purchases.

You are not living in the real world if you think a child needs more than €800 a month to live on. Although if you are the type of parent who thinks their child should be wearing mini-Nike Air Max and only eat vegetables from Fallon & Byrne...


----------



## ajapale

*Re: Cannot meet child Maintenance payments of €683/mth. I will unilateraly reduce pay*

Please stay on topic and discuss the implications of the OP unilaterally reducing the maintenance payments. And alternatives which might allow him reduce / vary the payments. 

OP, what does your solicitor say about your proposed unilateral action?

aj
moderator.


----------



## mathepac

*Re: Cannot meet child Maintenance payments of €683/mth. I will unilateraly reduce pay*

OP, the implications of unilaterally changing a  maintenance order are serious. The court will take a dim view of your actions and may impose an attachment of earnings order for the original amount plus any arrears. If the court hears nothing from you, they have no way of knowing that your financial circumstances have changed.

The only way to get the order varied (reduced) is to make an application to the court in advance, via your solicitor or the clerk of the court, laying out your new circumstances with income and expenditure documented and substantiated.

Acting unilaterally will only lead to additional problems.


----------



## Thirsty

*Re: Cannot meet child Maintenance payments of €683/mth. I will unilateraly reduce pay*



> child maintenance order against me through the circuit court


More of an observation really, but the maintenance order is not 'against' you - it is in favour of your children.

If the two of you can agree, you could consider paying spousal maintenance instead; it would be deductable in your hands for tax, though taxable as income for your former wife.  Depending on your tax situations it might be worth considering.


----------



## dj123

*Re: Cannot meet child Maintenance payments of €683/mth. I will unilateraly reduce pay*

OP, you should just go back to court instead of taking it upon yourself to change it, most important thing is to do everything above board! good to see the law has changed a small bit anyway.


----------



## oc3tec

*Re: Cannot Meet Child Maintenance Payments*

I suggest we keep things simple when children are involved. When we give children everything they'll expect everything to be given to them. This does not build character in a child.


----------



## mcl

Hi again, to cut a long story short I am still making unilaterally reduced payments with no protest from my ex-partner (not ex wife). I took this to court in December to have the variation appliction heard. Unfortunately my ex-partner decided to apply for free financial aid at the last second when I was sitting in the dock, so the case could not be heard?! I am now in the process of re-applying to the Circuit Court.


----------



## mcl

Note, I will be representing myself in this application to the Circuit Court (As I did back in December, albeit briefly). I have collated all of the necessary evidence of Income and Outgoings/Expenditure. Recent hikes in Living costs e.g Petrol, Mortgage repayments coupled with new taxation (USC) have added increased pressure on everyone, so hopefully the Court will take this into consideration. Finally all of my children, i.e. My two girls for whom I am paying maintenance, and My two girls I have had with my Wife are very happy and are wanting for nothing that children need. My conscience is clear.


----------

