# Fault condoms on the market - Baby Recall!



## legend99 (15 Mar 2005)

[broken link removed]

Now, if someone gets pregnant over this, all joking aside, would they not have a serious case for suing Durex???


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## stobear (15 Mar 2005)

But they are not 100% effective anyway, so how do you prove  and take a case against the manufacturer? How do you prove it was used correctly, too many loopholes to get a case methinks.


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## legend99 (15 Mar 2005)

*..*

Have this vision of a guy in the courtroom now showing the judge and jury how he puts one on!!!!


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## Natchessmen (15 Mar 2005)

L99

Interesting question, the most obvious answer is *no* you can't sue Durex as these are counterfeit goods.  They are not made by Durex and there's nothing they can do about them.   That's the obvious answer now the subtle answer my company is being sued for something very similar in another country.  Someone copied our goods put them on the market and they failed to do what they are designed to do.  Some punters are suing us, now we have to prove that they are counterfeit etc etc also we have to demonstrate that we were unaware of their existence.  I think we will win because in this case we have good solid evidence.  However if it were another product we might find it hard to demonstrate some of the above.


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## ajapale (15 Mar 2005)

I reckon that the pharmacies could be sued. The pharmacies in turn could sue the wholesalers.


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## Dr Moriarty (15 Mar 2005)

...maybe for distributing counterfeit goods (presumably unwittingly).

But hardly for any unwanted pregnancies that might result. Even genuine condoms don't come with guarantees.

I never listen, but I'm sure the Gerry Ryan show's 'phone lines will have been hopping today... _(Who ya gonna call? The biggest Dick of them all!)_


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## Ham Slicer (15 Mar 2005)

*Re: ..*



> Have this vision of a guy in the courtroom now showing the judge and jury how he puts one on!!!!



Johnny Cochrane - If the condom don't fit........


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## ClubMan (15 Mar 2005)

*too many loopholes to get a case methinks.*

I've seen the ribbed ones but never ones with loopholes!


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## MissRibena (15 Mar 2005)

What about the risk to life-threatening STDs?  Surely the fact that the counterfeits are indistinguishable from the real mccoy suggests that Durex's quality/authenticity controls are insufficient and they could be found negligent.  At €10-€20 a box, there's surely enough margin to put a safety check in place; holograms etc.  

Rebecca


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## Natchessmen (15 Mar 2005)

Hi R



> , there's surely enough margin to put a safety check in place; holograms etc



It comes back to how can the originator be responsible for copied goods, its like blaming the victim for the crime.  I offer two statements of fact

1. There is no such thing as a tamper proof pack
2. Any pack can be copied

Consider bank notes hugely sophisticated printed goods with both overt and covert security features, these are actually the most copied of all. 

Even with all the security packaging in the world I don’t think this is avoidable. The reason is that in order for security to be effective it needs to be checked by bodies, that is people  that know what they are looking for.  Who in this situation would do the checking? 

Nat


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## oysterman (15 Mar 2005)

Here's an allegation that may be entirely unfounded.

The counterfeit condoms have only shown up in pharmacies.

Were they sold through usual distribution channels or by  salespeople unknown to the pharmacists coming in off the street with a discounted price offer?

If they were (and I don't know), should that fill us with confidence that pharmacies exercise diligence in sourcing product? Are they selling counterfeit drugs as well? How can we be sure?

After all, they're forever justifying their price premiums on the basis that they provide a greater level of service than other retail outlets.


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## MissRibena (15 Mar 2005)

But isn't the point that they should make every effort to avoid copies/counterfeit or tampering?  They shouldn't be allowed to simply throw their hands in the air. I'm sure they could change their packaging some way to make it more difficult to copy or tamper with .  CocaCola and others manage it when it suits them from a marketing pespective. And food companies have taken steps, such as the pop-up button seal, to avoid contamination of food, so condom companies, producers of "luxury" items (re VAT at least) should be forced to do the same. 

Also, if they weren't so expensive in the first place, they wouldn't be seen as such a target. Funny how the LIDL ones weren't targeted.  Maybe they should be sold in bigger or smaller packs. 

I really think this is a (literally) deadly serious issue and I think the Dept of Health should be doing more than recalling the counterfeits.  For all we know, this could be happening for years undetected and people may have been through all kinds of hell because of it.

Rebecca


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## MissRibena (15 Mar 2005)

That thought struck me yesterday too Oysterman.  I think the whole thing is really shocking. 

I always bought at the chemist thinking it felt safer! And to think I was nervy about buying the Lidl ones in case they didn't meet the same standards!  

My heart was in my mouth last night going upstairs to check my ExtraSafe (my a*se) pack!

Rebecca


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## ttraces (15 Mar 2005)

has anyone been back with a faulty packet? miss r raises good points, how in hell they the end up on the shelves of chemists shops in the first place? you do expect the highest standards there, over the likes of lidl "apple mondos" for €5.99 as opposed to €12.99 for durex. 
incidently do you get a free packet if you return the box?


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## Natchessmen (16 Mar 2005)

> But isn't the point that they should make every effort to avoid copies/counterfeit or tampering?



I'm sure they do make every effort but it is really simple to copy packaging really really simple, and getting simpler.  CocaCola is ripped off all over the world sure they try to protect their brand but it's an uphill battle.  

That said the argument about distribution lines is far more promising.  I'm interested in the "back of a lorry" theory proposed by Oysterman.  It should be fairly simple to trace the purchase details of these products.  Somewhere in the supply chain there was an infringement.  It had to be 
a. At retail level
b. Local Distributor
c. National dist
d. International dist.


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## legend99 (16 Mar 2005)

*..*

All joking aside. The end result of this no matter what will be some people with unwanted pregnancies and others with STDs.
Thats some result. 

And I think in fairness that questions need to be asked about how they managed to go through distribution and wholsales without anyone noticing. They came from China...somewhere along the line there must have been substantial amount of ducmentation missing.


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## Marion (16 Mar 2005)

I heard on the Matt Cooper show that the pharmacies purchased the batches from an unauthorised distributor.

Marion :hat


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## oysterman (16 Mar 2005)

If this really is the case then the book should be flung at these hypocrites - just think of all the times spokespeople for this cartel have taken to the airwaves to proclaim that supermarkets can't be trusted to sell painkillers; that paracetamol should only be sold in smaller (i.e more profitable) packets; that pharmacists often save the lives of customers by exposing the errors of medical practitioners etc. (Add your own favourite piece of self-righteous, self-serving cant).

And then these hucksters recklessly expose these cherished customers to crisis pregnancies (at best) or HIV because they want to squeeze out a little more profit.

I know I'm a bit inclined to mount the old high horse at times on this site (occasionally just to get the row going), but I am absolutely furious at these people.

And, while I'm at it, did you hear the punter from the Medicines Board on the news last night saying that they wrote to pharmacies immediately this issue became known to them. WROTE? Haven't these people heard of a press release which would have the information in the public domain within an hour? How many of these condoms were used while the Medicines Board were licking their stamps?


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## Natchessmen (16 Mar 2005)

Not sure what the IMB did in this case,  but they do have fast track communication processes.


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## MissRibena (16 Mar 2005)

*Lacklustre response*

I'm with oysterman on this.  On a number of levels this is scandalous; the pharmacy cartel is already highly questionable (and tied in with doctors prescribing drugs on the basis of drug company promotions). High profile brands like Durex not doing enough (or anything?) to address or prevent this kind of thing. IMB acting at a snails pace on a matter of blatantly obvious urgency. There's no clarification as to whether this happened before and (call me cynical but) I bet there are lots of unexpected STDs and babies out there as a result of previous dodgy dealing. 

I really don't understand why people aren't up in arms on this. What other below-par crap are chemists peddling to us at crazy prices?  Bad enough to con us but to play with our health at the same time is just outrageous.

There are plenty of people are 100% reliant on condoms for protection from STDs and pregnancy (me included).  Many of us have to use them as a last resort. And this whole fog of doubt is only going to further damage their reputation with younger people who don't/won't use condoms near enough at a time when STDs are becoming out of control.

Rebecca


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## ajapale (16 Mar 2005)

*Re: Lacklustre response*



> High profile brands like Durex not doing enough (or anything?) to address or prevent this kind of thing.



Hi Rebecca,

Did you read NatChessmen's bit on this? The Durex company is a *victim*in this instance. I imagine that since the reputation and profits of the company are at stake that the company are taking it *very very* seriously.

If you want to blame someone blame the criminals who did the manufactured and smuggled the goods, blame the intermediaries who introduced the contraband into the system, blame the pharmacies who bought the products, blame the regulators, blame customs and excise for not interdicting the goods. But dont blame one of the victims of the crime.

As an aside does anyone remember the "the Irish Solution to the Irish Problem" this involved condoms being supplied through Pharmacies on foot of a Doctor's prescription. The Irony of it all!

ajapale


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## Natchessmen (16 Mar 2005)

*Re: Lacklustre response*

Hi R

What exactly do you think Durex sould have done in this instance?  they are being ripped off big time, brand in the sewer loss of consumer confidence this is a disaster for them ... how you an blame them for this is ridiculous.  

I agree with you on some of the points re the pharmacists though some of your points are spurious (pharmacists / cartel / doctors / big pharma rant rant)  none of which is relevant to this argument as condoms are GSL (General Sales Ledger) items.  no prescription no pharmacist assist required.

The real criminals are the counterfeiters (in China allegedly), distributors (who must be regional) and retailers that participated in this crime.  

I've not kept up with this case in the press, so can anyone tell me who many retailers are implicated?


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## legend99 (16 Mar 2005)

*..*

At some point some distributor in ireland must have taken delivery from a dodgy truck in the middle of the night with no documentation.
Whoever that was should be found and prosecuted for manslaughter if it turns out for example that someone got AIDS as a result of his/her actions.


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## MissRibena (16 Mar 2005)

*Durex response*

The manufacturer side is only part of this scandal that I am taking issue with; I'm not saddling them with all the blame but I'm not excusing them their responsibility in producing such a critical product.  Mostly I just don't think it's being taken seriously enough by anyone (yet, maybe it's a slow grower).  While it's nice for them to have such ready defenders, the victims in this are not Durex; they are the people who wind up with (at best) a product they can't use or (at worse) dead or infected with an incurable disease or with an unwanted pregnancy.  They are the victims in my book. 

What I would like Durex to do? I would like them to respond to this far more forcefully (and that's them in person, not their lay defenders  ). I would like to hear that they are having emergency meetings with depts of health because they are so worried as victims of this crime and at how easily faked their product was and the fatal consequences that might result.   I would like to hear exactly how they go about avoiding such clever counterfeits.  What do they really care anyway? It's a few thousand out of how many billion they sell daily? Nobody can prove it's their fault and anybody who tries is pooh-poohed.   It's reminds me of the joke about service on faulty coffins.

Like I said, the Durex aspect is only a part of the mess though.  But a mess it is.  Wish I could be a bit more relaxed but I suppose I should be lucky that I'll only be worrying twice as much about the safety of every bit of nooky for a while.  It could be a lot worse.

Rebecca


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## legend99 (16 Mar 2005)

*..*

You have 2 choices Miss. R.

1. Become a nun. It has its perks; you get to drive the smallest cars in the world and you are also allowed drive them worse than any other drivers on the road.

2. Use battery driven devices instead of men. Also has its benefits; it never falls asleep 10 secs after nookie and it doesn't suffer any issue after drinking booze....


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## MissRibena (16 Mar 2005)

I think I'll pass on the convent, nifty vehicles notwithstanding.

Himself won't be too impressed with option 2 either. Suppose I will have to go to "Good Deals/Bad Deals" section to find value in battery operated devices. Hope they don't send me to Ebay!!! 

Rebecca


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