# Out sick, threat of no job?



## black73 (1 Aug 2013)

I am currently on certified sick leave from my job, am hoping to return in the near future.
Am not out long term and previous to this have not been out on certified sick before.
My employer contacted me several days ago wanting to know when I was next going to the doctor and when I expected to return to work, I said I had appointment that day.
That evening I missed 2 call, 1 voicmail and 1 text message all from my employer wanting to know when the doctor said I could go back to work.
I told them its possible I won't be back until end of October, said this wasn't what they wanted to hear.
The next day they rang me wanting a letter from my doctor stating I would def be back the end of October, if not they said they had taken legal advice and my job may not be there for me, or they may have to reduce my days/hours.
I am working for my present employer over 5yrs and am not the last to be hired by them.

What are my rights?
My doctor is not going to give me a letter stating a def return date, in fact when I tell him what's been going on he's likely to flip!!!!!
I am completly stressed about the whole situation, I am giving my employer certs and keeping them up to date as much as I can but I go into a cold sweat now when their number shows up on my phone.

Any Advice please.


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## Purple (1 Aug 2013)

Contact [broken link removed]


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## Deiseblue (1 Aug 2013)

It is extremely difficult for an employer to sack an employee who is on certified sick leave but not impossible although it opens such employer to an unfair dismissal claim.

You should be aware that your employer is quite within their rights to seek a medical cert stating an estimated time as to when you may reasonably be expected to return to work.

If you are in a Union you should consult them.


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## black73 (1 Aug 2013)

I'm out on PND so at the moment there is no definate date as to my return.
Can they cut my hours on my return, if staff employed after me aren't cut?


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## TommyB (1 Aug 2013)

Deiseblue said:


> It is extremely difficult for an employer to sack an employee who is on certified sick leave but not impossible although it opens such employer to an unfair dismissal claim.
> 
> You should be aware that your employer is quite within their rights to seek a medical cert stating an estimated time as to when you may reasonably be expected to return to work.
> 
> If you are in a Union you should consult them.



You can be easily sacked for being sick. If you can't perform you job your employer has every right to let you go. 

This isn't the gospel on this but worth a read.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...ncy/dismissal/fair_grounds_for_dismissal.html



> Capability
> This includes issues such as lateness, absenteeism and persistent absence through illness or injury, either short-term or long-term.
> 
> If lateness or absenteeism is at issue, your employer will be expected to have documentary proof of this allegation, such as clocking-in records or documented absences on file that are not medically certified. In addition, your employer will also be expected to show that you were made aware of the problem and that you were warned as to the consequences for your continued employment.
> ...


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## Deiseblue (1 Aug 2013)

Employees have rights & employers have obligations & given the facts outlined by the OP I would suggest that the employer in question cannot fairly sack this person without falling foul of unfair dismissal legislation.


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## AgathaC (2 Aug 2013)

Deiseblue said:


> Employees have rights & employers have obligations & given the facts outlined by the OP I would suggest that the employer in question cannot fairly sack this person without falling foul of unfair dismissal legislation.



+1. OP, do you have any support that you can call on, e.g union? It can be a very lonely fight, and especially when you are battling illness. If you don't have a union, I urge you to seek professional advice, if possible. 
Unfortunately, in my opinion, some employers adopt the position that 'you are lucky to have a job', because of the current jobs market, climate etc. 
Talk to your doctor also, I notice that you mentioned they would be less than impressed at the pressure being put on you. Best of luck, and I hope that you make a good recovery.


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## shipibo (4 Aug 2013)

Employer can cut your hours, but have to give you reasons. You can bring your grievance to Labour Relations Commisioners.

The fact other employees started later then you is irrelevant, the reasoning from employer is important.

Contact Industrial Relations Solicitor in 
http://www.flac.ie

Personally, With information presented , I believe Employer would have issues winning their case if you contested it ..


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## Purple (6 Aug 2013)

Deiseblue said:


> Employees have rights & employers have obligations & given the facts outlined by the OP I would suggest that the employer in question cannot fairly sack this person without falling foul of unfair dismissal legislation.



I would suggest that both employers and employees have rights and obligations.
Without that it's hard to have mutual respect and understanding and that is critical to the success of any business.


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## black73 (19 Aug 2013)

The reason for cutting my hours is less children attending this year (Preschool), but has opened a second school and has moved a member of staff employed after me to there, keeping her hours.
Surely I should have been offered that role????
All very confussing and stressful


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## Purple (19 Aug 2013)

black73 said:


> The reason for cutting my hours is less children attending this year (Preschool), but has opened a second school and has moved a member of staff employed after me to there, keeping her hours.
> Surely I should have been offered that role????
> All very confussing and stressful



Why should an employer have to offer posts or positions based on how long someone has been employed?!
That sounds like 1950's England.


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## black73 (20 Aug 2013)

Why should my hours be cut for no good reason, I organised all the artwork, themes for the last year, I came in early when needed, stayed back when asked and now because I have been diagnosed with PND I am threatened with maybe dismissal because I can't give a definate date when I will return, or my hours being cut due no fault of my own.
Do employees have no rights????????????


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## Purple (20 Aug 2013)

Think about this from your employers point of view; they have an employee that is out for valid reasons but cannot tell them when they can return to work.
That causes them their own stress and uncertainty and considerable extra expense as they have to employ someone on a short term basis to cover that position. 
They need certainly and clarity and they need to ensure the viability of their enterprise. In that context it would be strange to expect them to move or promote someone who was on long term sick leave when they have no idea when or if  that person will return. 
They are running a business and (I presume) paying their taxes so they are making a considerable contribution in payroll taxes to cover illness benefits for their employees. In that respect their are fulfilling their social responsibility to you and their other employees. They pay you when you are working and they pay social insurance to make sure you are looked after if you cannot work. Why should they hold a job open for you indefinitely?
It is unfortunate and very hard for you to have to deal with your illness but to be blunt that’s not your employers problem.


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## black73 (20 Aug 2013)

Hold my job indefinitely???????????????????
I was diagnosed with PND on the 14th June, work closed for the summer the 25th, there's been no work all summer, we are due back the first week of Sept..........I have kept her informed of EVERYTHING, and its ok for her just to get rid of me........and i'm just supposed to be ok with that??????
I have worked with we were understaffed, when children turned up puking, when she had to go out at a minutes notice, for this loyalty because I can't tell her I'll be better on X date she can sack me, cut my hours, demote me? Because for the first time in 6yrs service I'm unwell.
I guess there's nothing I can do then.......guess I'm unemployed.......loyalty and service count for nothing.
And I'm sorry if I sound angry but I am VERY angry that apparently there is NOTHING I can do, basically I have to sit back and see what she does


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## Luternau (20 Aug 2013)

I am sure this is a difficult enough time for you without all the extra work related stuff. At the moment, 'you' should be your no. 1 priority. By this I mean getting well again. It sounds like you have a good GP, one that puts your needs first - so that's good.

If you are not in work, opportunities may arise that, normally you would benefit from, but when you are not there to take them, another person may benefit. That is hard, and unfair reward for all the good things you have done prior to this. But look at this from your employers perspective, they have a business to run and they need staff to be available for work etc.

If a new premises opens, staff are required for it. While you may be the most experienced, if you are out sick, with no definite return date, they have to look at other options-and that means other people. As was said, you have rights, but so has your employer. As long as they follow the correct processes while you are absent, employment law will support any action deemed fair and reasonable within the scope and meaning of the law-if they don't act fairly or reasonably, employment law will not support their actions.

It's really too soon to speculate on things like this and I urge you to just continue to follow your GPs advice. Your health is far more important than any job! Hopefully, you will be able to return to work and all this anguish will abate.

Take care!!


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## Deiseblue (21 Aug 2013)

You definitely need to take professional advice , the suggestion given by a previous poster that you consult with an industrial relations solicitor is a good one .

I would take consolation from the fact that given the strength of industrial legislation employer groups  such as IBEC have cautioned employers that although it is possible to make somebody who is certifiably ill redundant it is extremely difficult to do so.

The employer must observe fair procedure & it appears to me , from the detail posted , that your employer may not have done so to date - it is important , in this context that you avail of the best possible advise.

I wish you well in recovering from your illness.


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## Purple (21 Aug 2013)

Given the nature of your illness and your desire to return to work with your current employer when you are better I would strongly advise against getting solicitors involved. This is not a large company where you can have a row with HR but not have to face them on a daily basis. This is a small business where you work closely with your employer/manager. It is very difficult to work in a hostile environment, especially when you feel vulnerable and aggrieved. 
Talk to one if you wish but don’t involve them directly or even mention to your employer that you’ve seen one.

Have you spoken directly with your employer and told that you strongly wish to return to work, will do so as soon as possible but cannot at the moment? You need to give them some sort of time frame, even if it’s vague, and you need to really impress on them that you want to go back. There is an information deficit and they are filling it with worry and worst case scenarios. Make them want you back, make them want to accommodate you and make them feel that you feel the same way. It strikes me that this is a very negative relationship, coming from both sides. You feel that they are casting aside after years of loyal service and maybe they feel that you are stringing them along. I’m sure that’s not what’s happening but it may well be what they think. 
Talk; it’s almost like you are making a sales pitch but you are selling them your commitment and buying their understanding and sympathy.


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## Raging Bull (21 Aug 2013)

You have a lot of good advice here also if dismissed you could bring a case to Equality Tribunal. Your employer could try and say your contract is frustrated but it would be a risky move for them and probably unreasonable if your only out a few months


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## Deiseblue (21 Aug 2013)

Given the fact that your employer has taken legal advise I would reiterate my view that you should take legal advise , I do agree that you should not initially advise your employer that you intend to do so but you certainly need to know exactly where you stand legally in the event that your job situation deteriorates.

To be brutally frank given the myriad complications involved it is extremely difficult for  employers ( especially small employers ) to follow fair procedures in redundancy situations .

Hopefully your return to rude health will resolve this situation in a non adversarial fashion.


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## black73 (22 Aug 2013)

I did give her a time frame, I told her my aim was to be back by the end of October, she said that wasn't what she had hoped to hear, less than 24hrs later she phoned me to ask for a letter from my doctor stating I would be returning to work the end of October and that she had taken legal advice on what she could do if I didn't return then.
At this stage I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that I may never go back to work for her, I love my job and love what I do but feel that she has put a HUGE ammount of pressure on me to give her a definite date as to my return.......I would love to know when I will be "better"........the phone calls, texts, fb messages from her are not helping  me at all.
My doctor is definitely not impressed at the situation, his take on it at the moment is that he is unwilling to sign me back to work, keep sending in my certs and she will do whatever it is she decides, that I have no control over her decisions...........but she has me totally stressed and anxious about the whole situation and I feel that she has decided I'm unwell, can't be there for school reopening so bye bye


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## Luternau (22 Aug 2013)

You have got loads of good advice here...no thank you to everyone for tryin to put you at ease?

You can't influence a business decision if you are not there and your employer is quite entitled to seek a return to work date. Whether you achieve it or not is out of your control though. Stressing over it is not goin to help you achieve a speedy recovery though.


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## black73 (23 Aug 2013)

I am thankful for all the advice I have gotten and have been in contact with NERA and have found out all my rights/entitlements but with all due respect having this "threat" of no job if I don't return as soon as possible isn't actually helping my recovery.

But as you rightly point if I'm not there I can't do anything about the decisions made, I just know from the advice I've recieved from NERA that I am doing eveything I should be doing as an employee and beyond that I have no control.

Thanks to all for the advice


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## shipibo (31 Aug 2013)

Black,


     Glad to hear you are getting advice on the situation, your situation must have been stressful.

     Check out HTTP://WWW.FLAC.IE

       Ask for industrial relations specialist, in Dublin they have a good guy on Pearse st. ... my thoughts would be you would have a good case if anything happens, but the timeframe to get a case heard is quite long presently .... anyway, best of luck going forward.


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