# Welfare Payments "Use them or Lose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)



## Guest109 (16 Feb 2007)

Listening to "Talk With Joe" Tuesday & Wed  people were complaining about losing their benefits if they did not collect them within 12 days in some cases this was 5 days.

One lady a widower had went for a holiday in a caravan in Cork her relative had, when she came back to lift her benefits she was told she had lost them due to this 12 day limit, reason is if you do not lift your benefits you do not need them, she had 6 children so the hardship there would have been considerable. 

During the programme a lot of people were ringing in with the same problems, one lady on dialysis lost her benefits, other people lost out due to being hospitalised. 

People whose benefits are paid into their bank accounts have always got their benefits paid but now  this is being changed, seems you have to prove you need these benefits again.

What a way to treat the pensioners, the  sick and the unemployed?


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## BRICKTOP (16 Feb 2007)

*Re: welfare benefits use them or lose them*

What about personal responsibility?


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## jhegarty (16 Feb 2007)

*Re: welfare benefits use them or lose them*



BRICKTOP said:


> What about personal responsibility?



Couldn't agree more... i don't get paid if I don't turn up for work 40 hours a week... asking someone to appear up to 12 days after its due seems fair to me.....


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## auto320 (18 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments Use them or Loose them (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*

Personally I think that if someone is entitled to benefits, there should be a scheme that has someone deliver the said benefits to them to allow them to have a lie on. This is particularly true of unemployment benefit; what's the point in being off work if you have to get out of bed every twelve days?


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## SlurrySlump (18 Feb 2007)

*Re: welfare benefits use them or lose them*



BRICKTOP said:


> What about personal responsibility?


 
I wouldn't judge people too harshly because one day you may be in the same unfortunate position. We can all be smug when things are going well for us.


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## sunrock (18 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*

Getting your benefits paid into ones bank a/c is the best way.
Do you have to prove you need them....surely this is not enforceable...one could be saving up for a car for example.
What about our pensioners....can they spend the winter abroad and still get their pensions?


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## buzybee (18 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*

I think this can be harsh, forcing people to collect benefits if they are e.g. hospitalised. 

When my contract finished at work, I was just so stressed (with busy work environment) and then no job, that I got a bad flu.  I was lucky that I had the Sat Sun and bank hol Mon off, as I  couldn't put on my clothes to go out.  I knew I had to go to the Welfare on the Tues and sign on for unemployment stamps, as I had to prove I was looking for work. I get asthma when I get a bad flu.  Everyone was looking at me in the unemployment office, as I made a rasping sound every time I breathed.

Signed on for stamps on the Tues, went back to bed again and was sick for the whole week. 

As always, these rules are there to catch people who may have homes in other countries, going on hols etc, but  these rules catch the ordinary honest people out, who happen to get sick and can't collect their benefit.


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## Guest127 (18 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*



auto320 said:


> . This is particularly true of unemployment benefit; what's the point in being off work if you have to get out of bed every twelve days?


 
.
What about our pensioners....can they spend the winter abroad and still get their pensions?[/quote]

Pensioners can live abroad _permanently_ and still draw the Irish Contributory OAP. they are entitled to it.  I know of a person who sold their house and is now living in Alicante - and drawing the Irish disability benefit. thats not a misprint. disability benefit paid by the Irish taxpayer to someone in Spain.


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## ClubMan (18 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*

Benefits were paid for through an individual's _PRSI _contributions - why shouldn't they be able to claim them in anothe _EU _country if that's the rule? Don't forget that if I have managed to save a few hundred grand and become unemployed tomorrow then I could claim non means tested _Jobseekers Benefit _due to my past _PRSI _contributions.


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## pat127 (19 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*



ClubMan said:


> Benefits were paid for through an individual's _PRSI _contributions - why shouldn't they be able to claim them in anothe _EU _country if that's the rule?


 
Presupposing you are talking specifically about JB, the capability of receiving your payment into a Bank a/c via EFT could make it possible to receive it in another country. The practical issue is that you have to be here to observe the signing arrangements:-

*"(c) Signing Arrangements*
It is for the local office to decide how often the person must sign this declaration, where and at what times. A person may be disallowed for failure to sign on.
Persons who receive payment by way of Postdraft/EFT are reminded of their signing day the week before they are due to sign.
Where a person fails to sign on his/her signing day and has still failed to sign by the next payment run date, payment is suspended on the computer system and the next payment does not issue.
If the person contacts the Local Social Welfare Office and payment for the week in question has been generated, s/he is questioned as to why s/he didn't attend on the appointed day.
Where a Deciding Officer is satisfied that the person still satisfies the statutory conditions for Jobseeker's Benefit, the payment suspension is removed and payment will issue. If there is any change in the payment amount, the unemployment pattern is amended before the payment issues.
Regular failure to attend on the appointed signing day may result in loss of payment.
*(d) Proving unemployment in the prescribed manner*
It is a requirement that a person prove unemployment by attending at a Social Welfare Local Office or Branch Office (or other designated place) on a day and at a time that an officer of the Minister may direct for the purpose of making a written declaration that s/he has been continuously unemployed since last signing-on or that s/he expects to be unemployed for a future period."

Claiming (as distinct to receiving) the payment in another country is another matter. Reciprocal arrangements are in place to make it possible to claim JB elsewhere but I think it's most likely to apply only to someone who has taken up residence abroad.


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## Guest127 (19 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*



ClubMan said:


> Benefits were paid for through an individual's _PRSI _contributions - why shouldn't they be able to claim them in anothe _EU _country if that's the rule? Don't forget that if I have managed to save a few hundred grand and become unemployed tomorrow then I could claim non means tested _Jobseekers Benefit _due to my past _PRSI _contributions.


 
I fully agree that pensioners etc are entitled to payment abroad.by the way it doesn't have to be an eu country. you are entitled to your oacp in _any_ country. disability is probably restricted to the 27 eu member countries but not sure on this.


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## Welfarite (19 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*



buzybee said:


> I think this can be harsh, forcing people to collect benefits if they are e.g. hospitalised ... Signed on for stamps on the Tues, went back to bed again and was sick for the whole week ....



You "signed on" that you were fit for work?! That's fraud! If you are sick, you claim Illness Benefit!


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## sunrock (19 Feb 2007)

What about the irish non contributary pension.
Can one reside abroad and still get it?


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## pat127 (20 Feb 2007)

sunrock said:


> What about the irish non contributary pension.
> Can one reside abroad and still get it?


 
From www.welfare.ie


*"What happens if I go to live outside the State?*
State Pension (Non Contributory) is not normally paid to people who reside outside the State. However, if you go to live in Northern Ireland, and were in receipt of a State Pension (Non Contributory) immediately before you moved, your pension can continue to be paid for up to five years subject to certain conditions. 
If you go on holiday abroad, payment of your pension for a period of up to 13 weeks is normally allowed on your return home. However, payment will not be allowed for repeated trips of this nature.
If your return home is prevented by circumstances outside your control (e.g. because of ill health) payment may also be allowed where suitable evidence to that effect is provided by you. Evidence will also be needed to show that you continued to be entitled to the pension while abroad i.e. you were not working or claiming payment from the social welfare authorities abroad.
If you are leaving the State, you should tell the Department and return your pension book(s). If you are being paid by Electronic Fund Transfer into your bank or building society account you should notify the Department. It is not sufficient to notify the financial institution. When your return to live here, you should re apply immediately for your pension."


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## buzybee (20 Feb 2007)

Welfarite

It is great to say 'this is fraud' if you have never been made redundant, or if you never found it hard to get work.

I hope things will always stay fine for you.

I had the flu for a few days. Does this mean I should have signed off welfare and signed on for sickness benefit just for these few days. If I had the energy for all this, I would not need sickness benefit.

People are WELL able to say 'this is fraud etc', but they are also WELL able to go on the internet while pretending to be at work.  Also they are well able to go to work, and do nothing, when they have hangovers.  I think this is a worse fraud, taking 600 or 700 Euros a week, while doing nothing, and going on the internet.


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## ClubMan (20 Feb 2007)

buzybee said:


> Welfarite
> 
> It is great to say 'this is fraud' if you have never been made redundant, or if you never found it hard to get work.
> 
> I hope things will always stay fine for you.


Many of us here (including myself) have been made redundant and on dole so it's not like people don't know what that's like. Doesn't excuse fraud or false claims though.


> I had the flu for a few days. Does this mean I should have signed off welfare and signed on for sickness benefit just for these few days.


Yes as far as I know since you were not available for work so should not have been claiming _UB/JB _or _UA/JA_.


> People are WELL able to say 'this is fraud etc', but they are also WELL able to go on the internet while pretending to be at work.  Also they are well able to go to work, and do nothing, when they have hangovers.  I think this is a worse fraud, taking 600 or 700 Euros a week, while doing nothing, and going on the internet.


Not sure what this non sequitur is all about to be honest...


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## Delboy (20 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*



sunrock said:


> Getting your benefits paid into ones bank a/c is the best way.


 
aye, it's the best way allright!!!! remember some of the recent stories published in the Indo of some asylum seekers who had been granted residency in Ireland...1 woman was getting her welfare paid in to her bank account and her living beyone in Lagos, Nigeria. She flew over here every few months just to sign on and keep the thing going. 
Personally, I believe able bodied and fit people on welfare should be made sign on a few times a day....
a/ it might catch them out if they are actually working
b/ it might make them get a job to avoid the hassle
c/ it'll stop some scam artists who are'nt even in the country


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## ClubMan (20 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*



Delboy said:


> Personally, I believe able bodied and fit people on welfare should be made sign on a few times a day....


How are they supposed to look for work then?


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## jhegarty (21 Feb 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*



ClubMan said:


> How are they supposed to look for work then?



Sign on a 9am ... sign off at 5:30pm .... gives the whole day to look for work...

I found my current job while working a 40 hour week....did the interview in the morning and worked back the hours until 9pm that night...


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## ClubMan (21 Feb 2007)

Are _Welfare _offices open at those times? Perhaps electronic tagging would be handier?


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## Guest127 (21 Feb 2007)

in this case there was no point in going on the 'sick' anyway: they dont pay for the first 4 days of illness.


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## jhegarty (22 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Perhaps electronic tagging would be handier?




Now that sounds like a plan....better start a campain.....


I am off to see my TD/crash a car into RTé....


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## z108 (25 Apr 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*



Welfarite said:


> You "signed on" that you were fit for work?! That's fraud! If you are sick, you claim Illness Benefit!



The system isnt perfect.
what about people who are sick but dont want to stigmatise themselves by claiming disability and actually want to get better and work ? I know someone who did that a few years  ago and is doing fine now. its not so immoral.


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## Welfarite (26 Apr 2007)

cuchulainn said:


> in this case there was no point in going on the 'sick' anyway: they dont pay for the first 4 days of illness.



You do get paid from the first day if your claim links to another SW claim...in this case, claiming a week Illness Benefit immediately after Jobseeker's Benefit would mean no loss of payment.


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## Welfarite (26 Apr 2007)

*Re: Welfare Payments "Use them or Loose them" (as heard on the Joe Duffy Show)*



sign said:


> The system isnt perfect.
> what about people who are sick but dont want to stigmatise themselves by claiming disability and actually want to get better and work ? I know someone who did that a few years  ago and is doing fine now. its not so immoral.




i agree the system isn't perfect. How exactly, though, are you "stigmatised" by claiming a payment you are entitled to when you are sick?


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## z108 (26 Apr 2007)

> Originally Posted by Welfarite: i agree the system isn't perfect. How exactly, though, are you "stigmatised" by claiming a payment you are entitled to when you are sick?




Some people believe there is a stigma especially in relation to mental health. 
and believe it can reduce peoples estimation of you and your abilities. 
I wouldnt know what advice to give someone about whether a future employer could find out if he or she had been on disability in the past and it may go against you if you wish to apply for a working visa to such places as Canada, Australia and the US as you could be obliged to declare your health status.
When I was working in the USA, I had to give them every scrap of detail in triplicate in order to obtain a visa so I know this is true.
Such thinking is problem in society today. Just a few short years ago  contraception and divorce were stigmatised for example . Sure isnt that how Parnell fell from grace ? Either way its an arbitrary judgement being imposed .
The system isnt perfect and society isnt perfect but anyone claiming unemployment who is entitled to disability must surely be actually claiming less than they are entitled to?
Organisations such as AWARE try to help people understand depression and al anon helps the relatives of those who suffer from alcoholism. Theres also support groups for gamblers but notice they all offer anonymity? This is  a reflection upon society and societys pressures even upon those whos problems are not their own doing.


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## Guest127 (27 Apr 2007)

Welfarite said:


> You do get paid from the first day if your claim links to another SW claim...in this case, claiming a week Illness Benefit immediately after Jobseeker's Benefit would mean no loss of payment.


 
so if  you are actually sick for say 2 /3 weeks would you be better claiming jobseekers allowance for the first week then switching to illness benefit? anyone I know who claimed illness benefit got zilch for the first 4 days.


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## Welfarite (30 Apr 2007)

cuchulainn said:


> so if  you are actually sick for say 2 /3 weeks would you be better claiming jobseekers allowance for the first week then switching to illness benefit? anyone I know who claimed illness benefit got zilch for the first 4 days.



Nah, the first THREE days are not paid on a SW claim when it is the first claim in 6 months (i think ... might be a year). SW will pay from day one on any subsequent claims in that time as they "link" both claims. It makes no difference what type of claim it is, Illneess or Jobseeker's.


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## Guest127 (30 Apr 2007)

thanks W.


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