# Hackers rob $70m worth of Bitcoin



## Merowig (8 Dec 2017)

http://time.com/money/5053744/hackers-steal-bitcoin-nicehash/
Bitcoins worth 70 Million in USD were stolen - I guess the users won't get reimbursements from the wallet provider???


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## TheBigShort (8 Dec 2017)

Merowig said:


> http://time.com/money/5053744/hackers-steal-bitcoin-nicehash/
> Bitcoins worth 70 Million in USD were stolen - I guess the users won't get reimbursements from the wallet provider???



If €70 cash was stolen from your wallet, who would reimburse you?


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## Merowig (8 Dec 2017)

If 70 Euro is stolen from my Bank account or from my Credit Card I would get it back from the bank in most cases 

I have physical control over my wallet - but you don't have physical control over your online Bitcoin wallet.

So you have to compare it to your bank account/Credit Card - not to a physical wallet.


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## fpalb (8 Dec 2017)

Merowig said:


> I have physical control over my wallet - but you don't have physical control over your online Bitcoin wallet.
> 
> So you have to compare it to your bank account/Credit Card - not to a physical wallet.



Are Nice Hash a regulated bank or financial company? If not then I don't think a comparison to other regulated banks or institutions is valid comparison.


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## Merowig (8 Dec 2017)

Most likely they are not regulated - and that means again that Bitcoins are not like money/ a financial system in itself etc . It is not a valid alternative to a regular bank account/being part of the old fashioned evil and rotten financial system (which ironically offers some protection).

Easy come easy lose.
I wonder how many of the users lost their complete savings with this monopoly money.


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## fpalb (8 Dec 2017)

Merowig said:


> Most likely they are not regulated - and that means again that Bitcoins are not like money/ a financial system in itself etc . It is not a valid alternative to a regular bank account/being part of the old fashioned evil and rotten financial system (which ironically offers some protection).
> 
> Easy come easy lose.
> I wonder how many of the users lost their complete savings with this monopoly money.



woah hang on, you're equating Nice Hash which are a company, with bitcoin itself.  Nice Hash weren't a bank, nobody should have had their complete savings there.

Giving unregulated companies your bitcoins is something bitcoin won't prevent you from doing, just as the euro won't prevent you from giving a 50euro note to a conman on the street. The freedom of cash (whether fiat or cryptocurrency) involves personal responsibility about who you choose to give that cash to.

Just as you have physical control of your wallet of euros, I have physical control over my wallet of bitcoins.


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## TheBigShort (8 Dec 2017)

Merowig said:


> If 70 Euro is stolen from my Bank account or from my Credit Card I would get it back from the bank in most cases
> 
> I have physical control over my wallet - but you don't have physical control over your online Bitcoin wallet.
> 
> So you have to compare it to your bank account/Credit Card - not to a physical wallet.



You may have physical control over your wallet, but I doubt if it's not possible that someone can steal cash from it. Have you heard of pick pockets, or muggers? If €70 cash is stolen from your wallet, who will reimburse you?


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## ant dee (8 Dec 2017)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> The BTC could have been added without any of this effort


See, if the BTC is added without effort, it can be removed without effort, thus losing the immutable properties, making the network insecure.
So all this crude brute force work that is done, is securing your transactions, because for someone to reverse them he would have to do the cumulative work that the network is doing and surpass it.
Proof of work is important for the network.


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## ant dee (8 Dec 2017)

ant dee said:


> See, if the BTC is added without effort, it can be removed without effort, thus losing the immutable properties, making the network insecure.
> So all this crude brute force work that is done, is securing your transactions, because for someone to reverse them he would have to do the cumulative work that the network is doing and surpass it.
> Proof of work is important for the network.


Err this reply doesn't make sense here, proof of work doesn't secure you from getting your bitcoins, which you deposited to a custodial service, hacked.
It secures the network from an attacker re-organising the transactions and stealing funds that way.


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## john luc (9 Dec 2017)

can the stolen bitcoins not be traced through the blockchain


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## Merowig (9 Dec 2017)

ant dee said:


> See, if the BTC is added without effort, it can be removed without effort, thus losing the immutable properties, making the network insecure.
> So all this crude brute force work that is done, is securing your transactions, because for someone to reverse them he would have to do the cumulative work that the network is doing and surpass it.
> Proof of work is important for the network.


Again you are comparing something physical with something digital - my bank reimburses me as previously stated should the bank be hacked...
So having money in a bank account in the Western world with the rotten evil banking system is more secure than having a Bitcoin wallet with provider X.....


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## fpalb (9 Dec 2017)

Merowig said:


> Again you are comparing something physical with something digital - my bank reimburses me as previously stated should the bank be hacked...
> So having money in a bank account in the Western world with the rotten evil banking system is more secure than having a Bitcoin wallet with provider X.....



Why are you using the example of a bank account instead of for example a failed investment company? People who put euros into that lost all of their euros. Is that a reflection on regulated euro banks, or on the euro itself?

Private companies, custodians, and bearer wallets like hardware wallets are three different categories of storage both in the legacy system and in bitcoin. If you choose to judge the fundamentals of the money by the worst examples of companies either will look bad.


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## ant dee (9 Dec 2017)

Merowig said:


> Again you are comparing something physical with something digital - my bank reimburses me as previously stated should the bank be hacked...
> So having money in a bank account in the Western world with the rotten evil banking system is more secure than having a Bitcoin wallet with provider X.....


That reply of mine was moved from another thread and doesn't belong here.

However you are comparing a custodial service ( Western Union? , Coinbase, nicehash) that keeps your money for you with a wallet, they are different things


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## Merowig (9 Dec 2017)

I use bank account as a (in my opinion very valid) comparison because

1. the Bigshort is nonstop repeating the nonsense that Bitcoin is a new financial system replacing the evil rotten banks
2. people indeed use bitcoin wallet like a bank account
@ antdee 
3. the bank keeps my money as well for me in a bank account - so what?


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## ant dee (9 Dec 2017)

It is not the same.
If you want to compare them, a bitcoin wallet is like a bank. Not a bank account. A bank.
A bitcoin account on a custodial service, like coinbase is like a bank account.
You ask the question, - so what?
You make a request to get your money back and they send it to you. Simple and nice.
Until the day they don't send it to you.
Until, Cyprus happens. We have to keep a portion of your money for us.
Or Greece. You can only get €20 per day from your money.
Or Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Argentina.


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## fpalb (9 Dec 2017)

Having money in a bank account in the western world is not necessarily more secure than having my bitcoins in my own custody. Greek banks closed denying their citizens access to their money for weeks, Cyprus gave a haircut to depositors. Irish banks are gov backed only up to 100k. Irish banks have a recent history of going bust which indirectly cost me money.


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## Merowig (9 Dec 2017)

Cyprus and Greece : the withdrawl limitatiosn were completely foreseeable.
Yes there is a limit of ~100k on guarantees. That means you put the rest somewhere else 

Bitcoin is advertised for its security features but its Achilles heel is the "bank" aka wallet - I wonder how many people will get again bitcoins after their account / "wallet" was emptied


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## fpalb (9 Dec 2017)

Just to be clear, do you think bitcoin requires a third party to act as a wallet?


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## Merowig (9 Dec 2017)

You have offline wallets: Paper / USB sticks / hard drives....
I wonder what happens if you lose the paper though or the hard drive is dead... is it gone or recoverable?


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## fpalb (9 Dec 2017)

If you lose all copies of a wallet it's gone, mathematically impossible for anyone to ever spend those coins. So you need to take due care depending on how much you're storing. 

Your two risks are:
- Someone gets access to your wallet
- You lose all copies of your wallet

The first won't happen if you use a hardware wallet like the ledger nano, the second won't happen if you make backups which can be in any format: digital, paper, engraved in stone however you want. Just got to ensure to encrypt them, or that they're hidden out of sight of strangers (or non-strangers that you don't trust)


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## fpalb (9 Dec 2017)

john luc said:


> can the stolen bitcoins not be traced through the blockchain


Yes, to a certain degree at least. I suspect they're going to need to go to a lot of effort to hide the trail. Maybe they'll manage it, maybe they'll be caught, it might depend on who is actually hunting them down, is it just the Slovenian police? they might not be the most motivated or tech savy (EDIT: didn't mean this a knock on Slovenians specifically in any way, just saying that they're not going to have the resources of something like the FBI).


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## TheBigShort (9 Dec 2017)

Merowig said:


> 1. the Bigshort is nonstop repeating the nonsense that Bitcoin is a new financial system replacing the evil rotten banks



That's not true, and when you resort to making stuff up then it exposes a weakness in your argument.
I have been consistent in my view that I really don't know what bitcoin is. I am open to the suggestion that it is an alternative monetary system. I have a very small stake in bitcoin, not as an investment but as a means to try understand it's worth (if any).
At this juncture I believe it has huge potential ,notwithstanding moments where I consider that it doesn't have much value at all.
As for 'rotten banks', yep for sure, 100%!


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> That's not true, and when you resort to making stuff up then it exposes a weakness in your argument.



In defence of Merowig, that is the impression I got also.

One of the biggest advantages claimed for Bitcoin is that it allows people who don't like authority to have a currency which is not controlled by governments or central banks.  You seem to be a proponent of this.  Or that is the impression you give.

Brendan


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## TheBigShort (10 Dec 2017)

It is not a question of 'not liking authority', it is a question of do you believe authority, as it is currently practised, is in a manner that is accountable, verifiable with equal access and opportunity for all?
I dont.

For staters, the financial sector.

The extent that the labelling of bitcoin being a vehicle for criminals and money laundering is somewhat laughable when you consider the bare-faced corruption that is has been exposed, and continues to be exposed,  in the international financial system.
Money laundering, money printing, tax evasion, mortgage theft, false accounts, false accounting, deception, cooked books, etc...etc...

And yet, through our subservient governments and complicit media, we accept that all of this is just par for course, that it is not damaging to the integrity, and in turn, the value of our wealth.


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## BreadKettle (10 Dec 2017)

john luc said:


> can the stolen bitcoins not be traced through the blockchain



Yes it can and probably will be. Identifying the owner of the eventual wallet will be trickier though.


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## TheBigShort (10 Dec 2017)

Just listening to marian finucane. Even she recognises that our currency is 'magic money'.
IT editor for Independent is on referencing bitcoin as a hedge against fiat.


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## john luc (10 Dec 2017)

this theft points to a weakness in my view. How secure are the wallets and when a theft happens there is no law authority to turn to for help.


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## ant dee (10 Dec 2017)

john luc said:


> this theft points to a weakness in my view. How secure are the wallets and when a theft happens there is no law authority to turn to for help.


Wallet are as secure as you make them to be. If you use a desktop wallet on the local internet cafe, with the hundreds on key-loggers, your coins go 'poof'.

Thefts are always rumoured to be inside jobs to run with all the money.

If someone robs the local bank of all its cash it is not a weakness of the Euro or the ECB.


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## john luc (10 Dec 2017)

yes but you can take your money out of a bank and keep it in your mattress. My point is as this is completely an I. T. based money then it' a hackers playground


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Dec 2017)

ant dee said:


> If someone robs the local bank of all its cash it is not a weakness of the Euro or the ECB.



Correct, but it does not affect me.  My deposit in Bank of Ireland is still safe.

If they rob my Bitcoin through hacking or robbing my wallet or whatever, there is no one to give it back to me.

The equivalent would be the scammers who call people and manage to persuade them to transfer money from their bank account to some other bank account.  That is rare enough and most people would not be caught by it. If the person realises quickly enough that they have been scammed, their bank can sometimes get the money back. 



Brendan


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## TheBigShort (10 Dec 2017)

john luc said:


> yes but you can take your money out of a bank and keep it in your mattress. My point is as this is completely an I. T. based money then it' a hackers playground



Most financial institutions and government authorities would strongly advise you not to keep your money under your mattress.


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## ant dee (10 Dec 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Correct, but it does not affect me.  My deposit in Bank of Ireland is still safe.
> 
> If they rob my Bitcoin through hacking or robbing my wallet or whatever, there is no one to give it back to me.
> 
> ...


Yes Brendan that is all correct.

I just wanted to make the difference clear between 
- a personal local bitcoin wallet ( your own BANK, you have the keys and you have the responsibility to keep everything safe, it not very hard to be very very secure )
- an account at a custodial service, like an online bitcoin wallet, like an account at coinbase or nicehash holding your bitcoin for you ( basically a BANK ACCOUNT with the institution you choose)

There is no insurance in the second category, unless someone decides to offer it. They get hacked robbed whatever you don't get your money back.


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## Brendan Burgess (15 Dec 2017)

I see that someone was able to rob $1.8m worth of Bitcoin at gunpoint!

https://gizmodo.com/man-charged-with-stealing-1-8-million-in-cryptocurrenc-1821252074


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## ant dee (15 Dec 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I see that someone was able to rob $1.8m worth of Bitcoin at gunpoint!
> 
> https://gizmodo.com/man-charged-with-stealing-1-8-million-in-cryptocurrenc-1821252074


Yeah, if you don't take care its like holding cash in your house...

Take the money from the bank, to put it in crypto and store the crypto in a bank deposit box... Oh the irony...


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## DB74 (15 Dec 2017)

https://news.sky.com/story/woman-jailed-over-failed-bitcoin-plot-to-murder-her-boyfriend-11171874


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## Merowig (17 Dec 2017)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42378638
BBC article on the theft by North Korea of Bitcoins worth  $7 million (value now 82.7m)


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## TheBigShort (17 Dec 2017)

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.the...ting-as-economic-agent-for-north-korea?espv=1

http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/15/technology/north-korea-hacking-fallchill-volgmer-fbi-dhs/index.html

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.ind...ith-almost-daily-attacks-36208986.html?espv=1

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.the...o-nhs-blitz-security-experts-fear/amp/?espv=1

Gee, those north koreans surely picked a bad time to decide to become the international cyber crimelords? 
Someone needs to go over there with a fleet of nuclear armed warships to put manners on these guys...oh, wait!


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## Leo (18 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Gee, those north koreans surely picked a bad time to decide to become the international cyber crimelords?



They certainly didn't just start, North Korea have one of the most advanced cyber-warfare capabilities in the world. They've been increasingly targeting crypto currencies in the face of increasing sanctions.


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## TheBigShort (19 Dec 2017)

Leo said:


> They certainly didn't just start, North Korea have one of the most advanced cyber-warfare capabilities in the world. They've been increasingly targeting crypto currencies in the face of increasing sanctions.



I don't doubt it, I take your word for it. But don't you think their are Russian, Iranian, Chinese, US, UK, hackers, and probably dozens more at the same thing?
The point I'm making is that US-NK relations are tense at the moment, is it any surprise that the incidence of news reporting on NK and its corrupt and threatening ways is increasing?
It's just my observation.


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## jman0war (19 Dec 2017)

Actually you can opt for more secure custodial services if you want.
That security concern is driving innovation and new businesses in that area.


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## Leo (19 Dec 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> I don't doubt it, I take your word for it. But don't you think their are Russian, Iranian, Chinese, US, UK, hackers, and probably dozens more at the same thing?



On different scales, they don't all identify talent young and send them off to special state-run schools to train them. 



TheBigShort said:


> The point I'm making is that US-NK relations are tense at the moment, is it any surprise that the incidence of news reporting on NK and its corrupt and threatening ways is increasing?



They've been tense for a long time, increased reporting is a more accurate measure of what the media believe their consumers want to see, hear, or read.


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## john luc (19 Dec 2017)

I often observe how musing it is that some people will readily believe in conspiracy about the workings of the secret world government but dismiss out of hand a question of who really is behind the development of Bitcoin


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## fpalb (19 Dec 2017)

john luc said:


> I often observe how musing it is that some people will readily believe in conspiracy about the workings of the secret world government but dismiss out of hand a question of who really is behind the development of Bitcoin



It doesn't matter because they have no control over it, besides holding a significant stake. They could dump the portion of that stake that we know is theirs *once* and then it would be done, and they would no longer be anonymous.


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## jman0war (19 Dec 2017)

Bitcoin is an open source project so is transparent : which is the opposite of secret government workings.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Dec 2017)

jman0war said:


> Bitcoin is an open source project so is transparent



Good point. 

Remind me again of the name and address of the person who started it? How much Bitcoins they have? And how many they have bought and sold since they started it? 

Brendan


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## jman0war (19 Dec 2017)

As you know the author desired to remain anon.
Perhaps he/she foresaw the shortcomings of the experiment should it have a identified 'leader'.
Perhaps they wanted to avoid media attention.
Perhaps they were concerned it may impair their personal safety.

As far as how many bitcoins, there are estimates.
None have moved from their original addresses.

It would probably erode confidence in the project should he or she or they move coins.


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## ant dee (19 Dec 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Good point.
> 
> Remind me again of the name and address of the person who started it
> Brendan


Bitcoin was invented.
It doesn't matter if it is the local village doctor that invented it, Genghis Khan or Adolf Hitler. It works irregardless of its creator.
Its like electricity or geometry. They just work.

Satoshi is rumoured to hold about 1 million bitcoins, which remain dormant for years now as we can see in the blockchain.
Satoshi also gave away loads for free, before disappearing. Sure they weren't worth much back then.

I believe the project is growing away from Satoshi's vision, which isn't a bad thing. It is open and, meantime the network reaches consensus, changes are made. There was never a spot for leadership in Bitcoin anyway.

Would you want to argue that he is just waiting on the sidelines to jump in, liquidate his million btc and become the richest person on the planet?


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## jman0war (19 Dec 2017)

I would guess that should any coins move from transaction addresses within the Genesis block, the market would react quickly.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Dec 2017)

The imperialist capitalist media is at it again. Blaming the peaceful, democratic Republic of North Korea for  bringing down a South Korean cryptocurrency exchange.

*Bitcoin latest: North Korea suspected of South Korean cryptocurrency exchange hack*

"The Youbit exchange shut down and collapsed into bankruptcy on Tuesday after hackers stole 17 per cent of its assets.

The Youbit hack is the latest security breach to hit bitcoin and other cryptocurrency exchanges.

Last week, almost $64bn of bitcoin was stolen by hackers who broke into the NiceHash marketplace in Slovenia.

That followed a $31m theft of rival cryptocurrency tether, last month."

There they go exaggerating everything again. $64 _billion _stolen.  The current value would be only $64 million. Of course, the reporter may be anticipating the market value next week.

Brendan


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## TheBigShort (21 Dec 2017)

Is the Bloomberg site sounding the death knell for bitcoin?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ies-pain-for-some-as-ransom-demands-skyrocket


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## BreadKettle (21 Dec 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Last week, almost $64bn of bitcoin was stolen by hackers who broke into the NiceHash marketplace in Slovenia.



Are we just making things up now? Was $64m not impressive enough?


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Dec 2017)

BreadKettle said:


> Are we just making things up now? Was $64m not impressive enough?



Hi BK

I am not making anything up. It's a direct quote from the capitalist lackey media - The Independent. the link is in my post above


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## fpalb (21 Dec 2017)

Ah go easy on them, they were only off by 63936000000. It's close enough.


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## BreadKettle (21 Dec 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi BK
> 
> I am not making anything up. It's a direct quote from the capitalist lackey media - The Independent. the link is in my post above
> 
> View attachment 2395



And they only inflated the figure by a mere 1000% 

Or is it a typo on one line that you seized on? 

It references the exact same incident that's the first post and title of this very thread (with correct amount)


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Jan 2018)

*Gun ordeal of family in UK's first Bitcoin heist: Armed intruders force man to transfer cyber currency in raid at TV Midsomer village home*




I am confused by this. 

While Bitcoin is anonymous, does the blockchain not record every transaction. So is it not possible to identify these guys when they try to spend it? 

_Guy Shone, chief executive of Explain The Market, said: ‘These are criminals who have likely caught on to the current popularity of Bitcoin.

‘But depending on how much they have, these coins are like being in possession of a rare painting. Trying to exchange large amounts for normal money without alerting suspicion will be very difficult.’
_
But presumably they can sell their Bitcoins slowly to avoid arousing suspicion?  If I have a stolen painting, I can't sell it in dribs and drabs.

Brendan


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## TheBigShort (28 Jan 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> While Bitcoin is anonymous, does the blockchain not record every transaction. So is it not possible to identify these guys when they try to spend it?



Im guessing the way to launder it is to move it from one bitcoin wallet to another in different amounts before trying to cash out of it via an exchange.
Alternatively they may have a cash buyer in the ready.



Brendan Burgess said:


> But presumably they can sell their Bitcoins slowly to avoid arousing suspicion? If I have a stolen painting, I can't sell it in dribs and drabs



True. Bitcoin acts like cash in this regard.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Jan 2018)

I see that ATMs have been targeted in the US to spit out all their cash. A great name for this crime: "jackpotting" 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter

Brendan


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