# Attic Floor Insulated any benefit in insulating the attic roof as well? material?



## Builder (28 Dec 2010)

I have the floor of my attic insulated with rockwool and the middle section of the attic is floored as well. 

During the cold spell I left the attic door open to prevent pipes freezing as the attic is very cold.

Would it be of any benefit to insulate the attic roof as well and also what product would be best suited. 

My real concern is to prevent pipes or tank freezing in cold weather as I am not living in the house.


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## pudds (28 Dec 2010)

nah thats a bit extreme...would only consider that if turning it into a room.

Install something like this and its self regulating. You may need  a power socket though. 


[broken link removed]


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## esox (28 Dec 2010)

yea totally rite, nothing will stop pipes freezing in that weather only HEAT but in my option if you get your rafters spray foam insulated or a high density insulated board the benefits will be far reached, for example I noticed a house with this isolene (spell) foam insulation product installed this house had snow on it much longer than any of neighbours. NO HEATLOSS FROM HOUSE.


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## pache (29 Dec 2010)

Would one of these raise any insurance issues?.


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## Builder (29 Dec 2010)

*Insulating attic*

I would be very reluctant to use the frost heater as I do not reside in the house and would be afraid of electrical fault.


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## roker (29 Dec 2010)

Builder that worries me also. I have an oil filled radiator in the attic,plus its OK until you get cold plus a power cut. I need a belts and braces aproach, I will also lower the tank and insulate it


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## esox (30 Dec 2010)

ELECTRIC heaters are in the most part fine, but you must get it installed by a reg. electrician and positioned correctly in attic don't just rely on heater that has a 13amp fused plug, your must be wired back to consumer unit 'fuse board' using a rcd breaker.


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## Lex Foutish (30 Dec 2010)

Builder said:


> I would be very reluctant to use the frost heater as I do not reside in the house and would be afraid of electrical fault.


 
Hi Builder. You say that you don't reside in the house. Does anybode live there? If not, you'd be well advised to just turn off the mains and drain down all the water from the tank by opening your taps, flushing toilets etc. You wouldn't have any water in the system and the pipes or tank couldn't burst. It's fairly standard practise for holiday home owners, etc.


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## Mpsox (30 Dec 2010)

you can get pipe insulation to put around the pipes, it's click on and easy to do. We insulated the attic over the summer and the pipes going into the tank froze, once we put the pipe insulation on, no problems. see below for more details
[broken link removed]


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## Lex Foutish (30 Dec 2010)

Mpsox said:


> you can get pipe insulation to put around the pipes, it's click on and easy to do. We insulated the attic over the summer and the pipes going into the tank froze, once we put the pipe insulation on, no problems. see below for more details
> [broken link removed]


 
Hi Mpsox. I've used that pipe insulation throughout my house and it has done the job fine but our plumber reckons that it isn't good enough for the type of temperatures we've had over the last few weeks. He's recommended to me that I use Armaflex instead. He reckons it's much better but it's also more expensive. About €4 for a 2m length. It's especially suitable for outdoor pipes. This is the link from the idevelop site that you linked us to.... [broken link removed]


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## onq (2 Jan 2011)

Builder said:


> I have the floor of my attic insulated with rockwool and the middle section of the attic is floored as well. During the cold spell I left the attic door open to prevent pipes freezing as the attic is very cold. Would it be of any benefit to insulate the attic roof as well and also what product would be best suited. My real concern is to prevent pipes or tank freezing in cold weather as I am not living in the house.



Heaters fail when the power is cut.

You have created a space within the envelope of the building in which water is stored but allowed the insulation to follow an internal path below this [the ceiling] as opposed to follow the line of the roof.

This makes the attic far colder than the rest of the house and requires that everything carrying water is properly lagged and insulated, including flow and return pipes, leaving no insulation under the water tank(s) - thsi raises a question of house ot keep the smaller tank warm.....

There is an alternative.

You could insulate the attic/roof in accordance with the latest Building Regulations TGD Part F regulations, Diagam 11.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1647,en.pdf 

P. 28 Diagram 11 and my preference is the left hand illustration to avoid cold eaves and vertical insulation that can sag.

Remember to install the 50mm continuous clear air gap everywhere required.

Even if you do this, the attic will still remain colder than the rest of the house unless you heat it because of the insulation at ceiling level.

However it will tend to lose heat less quickly if the power is cut.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the        matters    at      hand.


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## esox (2 Jan 2011)

just notice the diagram on roof ventilation through the soffit board, but over this winter I've seen pipes freezing caused by cold wind entering the attic space from these "ventilation" points.

boiler pipes freezing in less than 40 Min's 

heard some neighbors talking of insulating the fascia and soffit space with high density board.

is there any way to stop pipes freezing in these conditions as no amount of pipe insulation will stop -10*c


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## Lex Foutish (3 Jan 2011)

Armaflex if available in a number of thicknesses. I've been told that the thicker stuff is good enough for external pipes in the type of weather we had recently. 19mm, I think. If you check with your local builders suppliers, they'll be able to tell you, I'm sure.

I've copied the following from an ebay page selling Armaflex.

*Properties**Values**Remarks**Material*Foamed nitrile rubber[broken link removed]*Max. Surface Temperature*+105° C[broken link removed]*Max. Temperature for Flat Surface*+85° C[broken link removed]*Min. Surface Temperature*-50° CFor min. temperatures between -50° C and - 200° C, please consult our Technical Department. *Thermal Conductivity at 0*° C0.034 W/(m · K)Test acc. to EN ISO 8497*Thermal Conductivity at +20*° C0.036 W/(m · K)*Thermal Conductivity at +40*° C0.038 W/(m · K)*Water Vapour Permeability*Moisture Resistance Factor µ 7,000[broken link removed]2.79 · 10(-14) kg/(m s Pa)BS EN ISO 9346:1996*Water Absorption*0.2% by volumeTest acc. ASTM C 209*Surface Spread of Flames*Class 1Surface Spread of Flame acc. BS 476 Part 7: 1997*Fire Propagation *Total Index Performance (I) ≤ 12
Sub Index (i1) ≤ 6Fire Propagation acc. BS 476 Part 6: 1989*Fire Performance *
*acc. to Building Regulation**Class O*Test results for Surface Spread of Flames and Fire Propagation *meets Class O fire category for*Building Regulations 2000 (England and Wales)Building Standards (Scotland) Regulations 1990Building Regulations 2000 (Northern Ireland)Building Regulations 1997 (Republic of Ireland) *Reaction to fire*Self-extinguishing, does not drip [broken link removed]*Noise Reduction*Sound Absorption Coefficient ISO 354:2003 up to 0.8Also suitable for use in the prevention of sound passage*Resistance to*Building Materials: Very Good
Ozone: Very Good
Chemicals: Consult Product Test List[broken link removed]*Health Aspects*Dust & Fibre Free[broken link removed]*Other Properties*ODP zero
GWP zero
Tested in accordance with UL 94[broken link removed]*Outdoor Applications*Class O Armaflex should be painted with Armafinish FR paint to the recommended thickness within 3 days. Two or more coats may be required.


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## roker (3 Jan 2011)

This begs the question, Why have pipes and water in the attic anyway? 
The latest installed heating systems do not have primary heating header tank and are a sealed system with an expansion vessel.
To the best of my knowledge other countries to not have a 60 gallon tank in the attic for the hot and cold taps, the system is fed through a pressure regulator from the mains supply.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is something to do with outdated regulations,


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## Shane007 (4 Jan 2011)

Vented heating systems have a small tank in the attic, mainly to provide expansion and secondly as a feed tank to fill the heating system on initial fill and re-fill when necessary, hence called a feed and expansion tank. Sealed pressurized system do not have this tank, but have an expansion vessel, namely the red bottle tank to provide expansion. The system is filled with filling valve and then disconnected once full. Pressure can be viewed on pressure gauge.
Cold water storage tanks in the attic provide a cold water supply to mainly bathrooms and other non-potable water outlets and to the domestic hot water storage cylinder. You can of course do away with this system and have a pressurized system and hence no pipes in the attic. Both have advantages and disadvantages. Main disadvantage is if no mains coming in, then no water at all to toilets, whb, showers, etc. Also no hot water. If mains water is intermittent, storage tank in attic will give a capacity. Unlike other countries, Ireland does not have a very stable pressure on the mains, so many pressure valves will not open when pressure drops below certain levels, such as anti-scald valves.
Gravity systems are more reliable and less to go wrong. Nothing to do with out of date regulations. Even in the UK, there are a lot of gravity fed systems, but you do need a consistent minimum pressure to avoid frustration and hair pulling!!!
My advice is insulate the pipes and tank and do not forget about each and every joint, elblow and connections. These can be insulated separately with Armacell insulation tape.
Insulate the tank and surrounding pipes by first removing insulation from below same, get rigid polyiso insulation boards, forming a box around the sides and top of tank and pipes, ensuring to seal all joints and gaps. You have now encaptured the tank and pipework into the heating envelope of the building.
Hope this helps.


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## onq (4 Jan 2011)

As far as I can recall, you are required to have a minimum of 24 hours storage of water in your house - this might be more now so don't quote me on that.
As Shane states, there is less to go wrong with gravity systems.

roker, I take your point, which is why I pointed you to the diagram in Part F.
If your insulation follows the line of the roof, the tanks and services lie within the insulated envelope - assuming the house is heated, problem solved.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                   as a defence or support - in and of itself - should    legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                   Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on   the         matters    at      hand.


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## roker (5 Jan 2011)

ong. Thanks for the useful information but in my case the regulation were not followed by the builder, also the Engineer that inspected the house before we bought it missed the points. The house is 10 years old
.
Last year when everyone was having trouble with condensation, my attic was literally dripping. I found that a/ the insulation was covering the soffit vents. b/ the extract from the shower was not taken to the ouside. c/ the water tanks are installed approx. 8 ft high and cannot be insulated. Uncovering the vents has of course made the attic spacer colder, so I plan to lower the tanks and insulate so that they will get heat from the house. d/ the supply pipe was only 4 to 5 in below the ground level, which I have corrected.
Its good to have regulation but how can they get away with not following regulations? who checks the finished house?

I mentioned on another post, I am presently monitoring the attic temperature with a projection alarm clock that has a remote radio temperature sensor. this reflects on to the bedroom ceiling at night, when it gets to near zero I switch on a heater. (thats if I am awake)


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