# Bailout deniers.



## thedaras (16 Nov 2010)

The following have denied that we are being bailed out;

Dermot Ahern;
Link... .rte.ie/news/2010/1114/okeefeb.html - Cached

Dick Roche ;
Link...www.breakingnews.ie/.../roche-flatly-denies-ireland-holding-bailout-talks-with-eu-481846.html

Brian Lenihan ; 
Link;  www.independent.ie/.../lsquowe-donrsquot-intend-to-use-bailoutrsquo-insists-lenihan-2413891.html

Brian Cowen;
Link; BBC News - 
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11762221

Anyone else care to add to this,so we can all clearly understand who said it wasn't happening.


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## RonanC (16 Nov 2010)

I was about to put up a near identical post thedaras with a question attached to it.. 

Why are we, the citizens of Ireland, being blatantly *lied* to by our Government in relation to this potential EU bailout?


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## RMCF (16 Nov 2010)

Because it suits them to.

Perhaps they are delusional, rather than liars?

It really seems to be getting a head of steam now, how much longer do we think the country will hold out?

I'm giving it til the start of next week.


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## Caveat (16 Nov 2010)

RonanC said:


> Why are we, the citizens of Ireland, being blatantly *lied* to by our Government in relation to this potential EU bailout?


 
In the vain hope that we can hold out until a general election?

Therefore saddling the encumbent (presumably not FF based) government with the dubious honour of officially requesting the bailout?


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## thedaras (16 Nov 2010)

I think this is on a lot of peoples minds at the moment.
The issue is one of trust and the government have proved yet again to have betrayed that trust.
I recall hearing those mentioned denying there was anything going on, and yet knew there was EU officials in the dept of finance for the previous two months.

I specifically put up links so there can be no confusion as to who said what and when.
I hope we all learn from this..

If they had been honest about what was happening,( does anyone recall how the debt amount changed on a regular basis ) and instead of telling us that the budget was basically the worst that could happen,some of them knew we were heading for a bailout and didn't tell us, because we are being treated like fools..

The main reason the IMF must come to Ireland is the government will not do what is required of them,they have lost not just the confidence of the people but the rest of Europe,and are now dragging Spain and Portugal etc down with them!

It is not news to me that the IMF are on the way..Ive been saying it and posted it for months now.
Im glad its out in the open so at the very least people can now see how we are being governed.

I am almost sure I posted , what I think would happen is that the government will collapse,there will be a general election,FF will lose badly ,FG/Labour will be in power,they will be left to pick up the pieces and implement the change needed,but wont.

FF will say ,we wouldn't have done this that or the other.
The IMF will ensure the FG will implement the changes and will be seen as the party who did the dirt,and FF like Bertie will walk away into the sunset,leaving a trail of damage behind them..


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## Firefly (16 Nov 2010)

The gov want to get the budget through and then call an election. They know they're going to lose, but when they're sitting in opposition and the IMF come in it won't be on their watch. They can tell the opposition they had the correct 4 year plan to get us out. The new rainbow government will be in turmoil and will break up within a year. Re-enter FF...


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## RMCF (16 Nov 2010)

I think that it will be so sad that *everyone *responsible for this country hitting absolute rock bottom, and I include politicians, bankers, regulators etc in all this, will end up living the high life for years to come while the ordinary citizen, and their children, will end up paying for years to come.


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## thedaras (16 Nov 2010)

Agree with that..
What will happen is that anyone that can leave ,will leave.
Most of those from lower socio economic backgrounds will not be able to leave (cost of relocating/flights etc),those in negative equity will not be able to leave.

Those who have an education ,who have money ,who would have paid massive amounts in taxes will leave.
Those who are left behind will be even harder hit.
Disgrace!


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## RMCF (16 Nov 2010)

Don't forget those who may fall into your 2nd group who can't leave either.

Myself and my wife have decent jobs, a child, education, some savings, but we really can't leave either. We have family, friends and jobs here, so can't leave. 

But we will be paying for this for a long long time, unlike Cowen, Bertie, Seanie Fitz, Drumm, the Financial Regulator etc.


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## MrMan (16 Nov 2010)

thedaras said:


> Agree with that..
> *What will happen is that anyone that can leave ,will leave.*
> Most of those from lower socio economic backgrounds will not be able to leave (cost of relocating/flights etc),those in negative equity will not be able to leave.
> 
> ...



I think that is a bit of a stretch of the imagination, let's not get ahead of ourselves.


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## shnaek (16 Nov 2010)

Why is anyone surprised that the government are continuing lying to us? They lie about every issue. Even the speed cameras are a lie. If they actually told the truth about something I think I'd collapse here on the spot!


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## truthseeker (16 Nov 2010)

MrMan said:


> I think that is a bit of a stretch of the imagination, let's not get ahead of ourselves.


 
Do you think so? In the past 18 months Ive seen 6 friends leave, am seeing another 2 off in the next few weeks and am considering going myself. People *are* leaving.


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## galleyslave (16 Nov 2010)

well, if Dermot, Dick, Brian and Brian all say it won't happen then clearly it w... er... will? won't? .... I'll go with will.. in fact I've already sold the bulk of my shares so I'm betting we're gonna be bailing like mad soon


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## Caveat (16 Nov 2010)

Trundle, Australia is looking more tempting every day!


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## galleyslave (16 Nov 2010)

Caveat said:


> Trundle, Australia is looking more tempting every day!



hell, Azerbaijan is looking better, never mind australia


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## thedaras (16 Nov 2010)

Originally Posted by MrMan 


> I think that is a bit of a stretch of the imagination, let's not get ahead of ourselves.



Do you honestly think that if someone had a choice between, living in a well run country, paying lower tax,or higher tax but with fantastic services,cost of living lowered, A future for their kids, better chances/opportunity's  in life etc and be slaughterd with levies /taxes/extremely bad  services, incompetent government,with the IMF in control?
Wait what was I thinking...of course they would stay!!!

As my kids would say.." yeah Right".

I will go when I can,If I couldn't I would do everything in my power to ensure my kids had the education to allow them the choice..A lot of people are leaving..because they can..


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## Betsy Og (16 Nov 2010)

To give the Irish people some credit the memories of FF and Bertie & Cowen will live long, I dont see them getting a free pass or offloading the blame onto the opposition that easily.

I dont fear the IMF/EU bailout, its cheaper borrowing than 9% on bond markets. The problem with FF are 1) intrinsically linked with the banks and developers so couldnt take a clinical decision in the best interest of the country, 2) in the Bertie tradition have caved to the Unions at every turn, the latest being the Croke Park Agreement which will fall. They dont want to be seen to renege on it, even though its whats needed.

The IMF/EU will cut through the bs, union agreements will be torn up, strike all you want cos these boys arent looking for votes, we'll be genuinely on the road to competitiveness, especially in terms of public sector costs.

The ones I feel sorry for are those dependent on social welfare who will suffer, in particular the elderly who havent really got the option of replacing that lost income, and those dependent on the public health service - the poor in other words. For my part I'll be taxed to the hilt but sure what about it, like a cockroach I'm hoping I'm hard to kill and will come out the other side of the nuclear winter we're all being promised.

If we dont get the outside intervention the same costs will be slashed, the same hardship endured, but we wont get the reform we desparately need. This is an opportunity to clean out the closet.

I'm appalled by the recent conduct of FF, unpatriotic, lying to the people to try to save face while continuing to damage the country.


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## Caveat (16 Nov 2010)

Well said Betsy.


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## Guest125 (16 Nov 2010)

+1


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## Birroc (16 Nov 2010)

+1 Post of the Year from Betsy


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## MrMan (16 Nov 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Do you think so? In the past 18 months Ive seen 6 friends leave, am seeing another 2 off in the next few weeks and am considering going myself. People *are* leaving.


 
What thedaras said is 'that anyone that can leave will leave'. For starters, I can, pretty much all of my friends and plenty of people that I know can yet low and behold here we are choosing to live in the country that is our own. I have seen more friends leave during the boom times than now, and that was strictly by choice.


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## MrMan (16 Nov 2010)

thedaras said:


> Originally Posted by MrMan
> 
> 
> Do you honestly think that if someone had a choice between, living in a well run country, paying lower tax,or higher tax but with fantastic services,cost of living lowered, A future for their kids, better chances/opportunity's in life etc and be slaughterd with levies /taxes/extremely bad services, incompetent government,with the IMF in control?
> ...


 
Something that your kids might learn is the grass is always greener on the other side.
I like Ireland, I enjoy the company of friends and family, I enjoy the interactions with people every day, I always enjoy what the countryside has to offer, I also enjoy the facilities for sport that are around me.

I don't have kids yet, but there are plenty of nieces and nephews on both sides, and all seem to be enjoying a good education, just as I did. 

People can continue to learn and live here.


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## thedaras (16 Nov 2010)

MrMan said:


> Something that your kids might learn is the grass is always greener on the other side.
> I like Ireland, I enjoy the company of friends and family, I enjoy the interactions with people every day, I always enjoy what the countryside has to offer, I also enjoy the facilities for sport that are around me.
> 
> I don't have kids yet, but there are plenty of nieces and nephews on both sides, and all seem to be enjoying a good education, just as I did.
> ...



I too like the company of friends and family, including those who have left and are planning to leave this country. Ireland has some great countryside, but much of it pales in comparison to landscapes in places like France, not to mention our 6 month winter. As for sports facilities, we are third rate at best when compared to other developed countries.
Our education standards continue to slide....children will have plenty of opportunities to 'enjoy' sub-standard education.

My home is where my children are, and their home is where their parents are.
If we can provide a better quality of life, in a more stable society/economy, and one with better weather into the bargain - then its a 'no brainer'.

Hanging around here until we crawl out of this hole in 5-10 years time, only to fall back into another one, makes no sense. Look at our history as a state - 1920s& 1930s were grim,1940s were a bit better (thanks to war time stimulus), 1950s were a disaster, 1960s were a mixed bag, as were the 1970s, the 1980s were horrific, and the 1990s were pretty good -for the second 5 years of that decade. As for the last decade - a real mix of the good, the bad, and the very ugly. The next decade is set to be a lost decade.

Who in their right mind would voluntarily sign-up for life to a country that is subject to such poor governance,corruption, mediocrity and utterly predictable and regular economic crisis.......maybe they are the people who have maintained FF n power for most of the history of this state......and such people can't have a 'right mind'...


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## Betsy Og (17 Nov 2010)

Oh no, its happening, I'm about to quote George Hook (something I never foresaw), but anyway to quote his pomp from early in the year

"A COUNTRY WORTH FIGHTING FOR !"

Wrap a tricolour around me or call me a fool, but I love this country. I've seen and lived in (admittedly briefly) other countries but theres none like our own. My young kids are growing up in the same environment I did, it worked for me, objectively its not a bad life here in the sticks. No traffic congestion, good physical environment, reasonable house prices, good local schools and Uni and most of all (and I know ye'll laugh) -  the GAA. Its the one thing I miss when abroad.

Between that and misty eyed nationalism I'd hate to "cut and run", though I know it makes sense for some & I wouldnt hold it against anyone. But for me I think its time to show some steely nerve, a good dollop of stoicism, a pinch of hope and optimism and lets plough on through.........


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## RMCF (17 Nov 2010)

How depressing was it to watch Prime Time last night?

I think in future if people aren't going to answer the questions they are asked then they should be told to get up and go. Dick Roche avoided every question he was asked last night, instead just reiterating the same lines to make it sound like all was OK. 

If ever there was a bail-out denier, it was on full show last night.

This country has been dragged to the brink by chancers and halfwits. The sooner they are out the better.


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## thedaras (17 Nov 2010)

Agree with the post above,perhaps those of us who are thinking of leaving ,should focus on pushing out the ones who are the main problem,that would make life a lot more pleasant for us and for future generations..


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## Odea (17 Nov 2010)

Yes. Trying to save face. Their doubletalk on top of doubletalk. It's like peeling an onion. Layers of lies on top of layers of lies.

"I didn't kiss her, honey!  She kissed me."


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## thedaras (17 Nov 2010)

Would anyone know how to contact the IMF?
Reason ,I would love to let them know some of the outrageous things that are going on here,I dont believe the government have in fact been telling the whole story,If they have been economical with the truth to us,god only knows what they have been saying to the IMF..


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## truthseeker (17 Nov 2010)

RMCF said:


> How depressing was it to watch Prime Time last night?


 

Very depressing - whats with the footage of a tree being sawed down with a chainsaw everytime the IMF was mentioned. Plus the scaremongering youtube footage of riots in countries where the IMF have stepped in.


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## RMCF (17 Nov 2010)

Agree that it was a bit cringeworthy at times.

Loved the way Miriam said "some of our viewers may be very scared after watching that clip".

Yeah, I think that was the whole reason you (RTE) made it. To make it look like the end of the world was coming. With clever editing you can make it sound like everything IMF based is terrible. There was a line hidden in there last night when a guy who worked for them said something like "they learned from their mistakes in the past, and they aren't so severe these days", but lines like that don't make good TV do they?


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## Yorrick (17 Nov 2010)

If you are going to go, for Gods sake go. 

I am fed up of all the whingers and moaners. Go and see how good you find it elsewhere. You have had a soft life in Ireland and once things get a little bit tough, ( boo hoo hoo I cant go to New York for my Christmas shopping !!!)  you resort to posting whinges or ringing Joe Duffy the master pessimist.


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## Shawady (17 Nov 2010)

A figure of 80 billion has been mentioned.
If this figure is given to the banks, I assume it is still the taxpayer that is liable as we own most of the banks?
I imagine it would be impossible for the banks to pay this back in the current state, and the EU would not be able to give directly to banks anyway.
Can anyone clarify this?


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## RMCF (17 Nov 2010)

apparently the banks have already gotten €130bill.

Now rumours of another €80bill. Admittedly only rumours, but this is a nation of less than 5mill people, so the numbers involved are quite frightening.


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## Shawady (17 Nov 2010)

I aggree, numbers are scary but it was be nice to get confirmed once and for all, what is the bank bailout going to cost us.
Only last week on Newsnight, Brian Lenihan was trying to emphasise that the deficit is 19 billion a year, but the banks are only going to cost 1 billion a year and is very managable. Why are the IMF coming in so??


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## Shawady (17 Nov 2010)

Caveat said:


> Therefore saddling the encumbent (presumably not FF based) government with the dubious honour of officially requesting the bailout?


 
Spot on Caveat.
I have come to the opinion that the government has been purposely vague about what cuts were needed in the hope they could get across the finishing line without touching politically sensitive items such as pensions and property tax. The EU have forced their hand and looked for specific details.
Isn't it amazing that as soon as the EU wanted details for the 4 year plan, FF/Greens suddenly becmae interested in all party agreement?


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## censuspro (17 Nov 2010)

The ironic thing about FF in all of this is that they were the anti-treaty political party that came out of the civil war.  Their staunch supporters will always remind you how their family has been in FF since 1926. They have been in government almost continuously since 1987 and in power for 53 out of the last 84 years. They are now the very ones handing back our sovereignty less than a century since we gained our independence and there is nobody else to blame but FF.


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## Betsy Og (17 Nov 2010)

I think FF is nearly a new Anglo -  a broken brand - they can call themselves the "Sure whatever you're having yourself Party". 

Can you imagine the hand wringing and weeping and grinding of teeth if this isnt sorted by 2016 !!  (ok we'll pay forever and a day, but the austerity and general down-in-the-mouth would want to be lifting for that important commemoration)


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## Shawady (17 Nov 2010)

Cowen is still denying it.
As Gilmore said "The IMF are not coming to Ireland to do their Christmas shopping".

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1117/economy.html


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## thedaras (17 Nov 2010)

Yorrick said:


> If you are going to go, for Gods sake go.
> 
> I am fed up of all the whingers and moaners. Go and see how good you find it elsewhere. You have had a soft life in Ireland and once things get a little bit tough, ( boo hoo hoo I cant go to New York for my Christmas shopping !!!)  you resort to posting whinges or ringing Joe Duffy the master pessimist.



This gets my vote for the most ignorant post ever on AAM.

I dont see anyone on here posting that they want to leave the country because they cant go to new York for Christmas shopping.

You say" once things get a little bit tough"... Wrong, where has anyone posted that they are finding things a little bit tough and will leave the country because of it?

Who are you referring to when you say " you resort to posting whinges or ringing Joe duffy the master pessimist? Who are you saying has a soft life in Ireland..

YOu  have not read the reasons posted as to why people would leave.
To help you understand I will once again say,its because of an incompetent government ,a badly run mismanaged economy, very few jobs,a future of huge tax increases/levies and vested interests.

You call it whinging and moaning,most call it doing something constructive.

Such ignorance is very scary...Utter rubbish and totally ignorant post.


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## RMCF (17 Nov 2010)

Agree thedaras.

It was posted after my post, so I had thought it might have been posted against me. 

no odds.


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## truthseeker (17 Nov 2010)

thedaras said:


> Utter rubbish and totally ignorant post.


 
Which is why I didnt bother validating it with a response


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## thedaras (17 Nov 2010)

Thanks.I appriciate that..I dont know who the poster is referring too,as it wasn't made clear,!The pure hatred and tone is ignorance personified

There are so many people who would love to leave and or love to stay,but circumstances have given them little choice in the matter.


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## truthseeker (17 Nov 2010)

lol - I thought it was against me!


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## thedaras (17 Nov 2010)

Who knows who it was said against..Could be anyone,but the word " you" was used four times!! Talk about getting personal!!
AS RMFC said, No odds,its a disgraceful post..


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## sunrock (17 Nov 2010)

I find it amazing that the government is now trying to separate bank and sovereign debt.
They are basically saying that the EU funding is to sort out the bank debt ,but as we all know the bank and the sovereign debt are all the one and the taxpayers will have to pay.
I saw Dick Roche on primetime last night and he waffled on about the governments debt problems , he was making out that things wern`t too bad and they would be managed.He didn`t come clean about the scale of the problem. However he then appeared on BBC newsnight and he was much more upfront about our problems and that europe would help us with more money.Clearly he felt he had to obscure the hard facts from the RTE audience.I can imagine the talking he would do with the IMF and the ECB.....suffice it to say it would involve a lot of grovelling.


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## Shawady (17 Nov 2010)

It's all spin from FF. Party before country.
Why don't just come clean and say we need the money. I notice on RTE news and Primetime last night, the word bailout was not being used.


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## Complainer (17 Nov 2010)

thedaras said:


> I am almost sure I posted , what I think would happen is that the government will collapse,there will be a general election,FF will lose badly ,FG/Labour will be in power


Or maybe even Labour/FG



thedaras said:


> Agree with that..
> those in negative equity will not be able to leave.


I'd have thought that they are the ones with probably the highest incentive to leave, and they won't be coming back either.



censuspro said:


> They are now the very ones handing back our sovereignty less than a century since we gained our independence and there is nobody else to blame but FF.





Betsy Og said:


> I think FF is nearly a new Anglo -  a broken brand - they can call themselves the "Sure whatever you're having yourself Party".



This will wipe out FF. Gilmore was right several months back - they are guilty of economic treason, and the Irish voters won't forget it.


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## truthseeker (17 Nov 2010)

Complainer said:


> I'd have thought that they are the ones with probably the highest incentive to leave, and they won't be coming back either.


 
Id be inclined to agree with this - awful though it is.


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## cork (17 Nov 2010)

Complainer said:


> Gilmore was right several months back - they are guilty of economic treason, and the Irish voters won't forget it.



Pot calling the kettle black IMO.

The same Irish voters who were responsible for the bubble?

FF were not largely in control of local government.


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## Yorrick (17 Nov 2010)

Excuse me for having an opinion but are we very worse off than earlier generations ?
We are a flight away from a market of 60 million people and members of the European Union. Get competitive and go out and win business.  Week after week the NHS are recruiting professional medical staff many from Ireland. Whoever said we should be guaranteed a job in Ireland. Mammy wont miss you that much. Its not the coffin ships of the 1840s you will travel on. Do ye think that every graduate should be able to get work in Ireland ? How many doctors, engineers do we actually need to service our population ?  Are we worse off than Germany Poland Japan were after WW2 ? 

Of course we can blame the Government and the Banks but take some responsibility yourselves. If you are in negative equity because you remortgaged to buy an apartment in Bulgaria look in the mirrror to see who is to blame. 
If you got free money from SSIA and voted F.F. look in the mirror.
You availed of free third level education and voted Labour for being good to you look in the mirror. The Irish people encouraged and rewarded auction politics. We pay for it now. Grow up and take your share of the responsibility.


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## DB74 (17 Nov 2010)

Yorrick said:


> Of course we can blame the Government and the Banks but take some responsibility yourselves. If you are in negative equity because you remortgaged to buy an apartment in Bulgaria look in the mirrror to see who is to blame.
> If you got free money from SSIA and voted F.F. look in the mirror.
> You availed of free third level education and voted Labour for being good to you look in the mirror. The Irish people encouraged and rewarded auction politics. We pay for it now. Grow up and take your share of the responsibility.


 
I have no 2nd property, either here or in Bulgaria

I had no SSIA - I had to cash it in after 9 months to get money for my house deposit

I have never voted for FF

I never got free education nor have I ever voted Labour

Who do I blame?


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## truthseeker (17 Nov 2010)

I have no 2nd property - anywhere.

I had no SSIA - ever.

I have never voted for FF.

The state DID educate me - I wasnt old enough to vote at the time I started college. And considering what Ive paid in taxes as a result of my professional qualification it was a good investment for the state.


Who should the first time buyers who bought within the stress test limits and subsequently lost their jobs and cannot meet their repayments or sell their homes to clear the mortgage blame?


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## thedaras (17 Nov 2010)

I have no 2nd property, either here or in Bulgaria

I had no SSIA 

I have never voted for FF OR Labour.

I dont and never have gone to New York for Christmas or any other shopping.

I am not in negative equity..

I didn't borrow excessively or over spend...

Who do I blame?


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## cork (17 Nov 2010)

Who was to blame?

The horse has bolted but let me make a start

Social Partners - HSE training funds?
Local Authorities for zoning and giving planning permissions all over the place.
The media for hype - Househunters etc
ECB - low interest rates
The Irish banks for wreckless lending 
The developers
The Irish public - obsessed by property at home and abroad
Accountancy firms for their bank audits
Central Bank
Public Sector for not alerting govt.
The Government
Public Sector wastage

We now have to move on & fix this mess.


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## cork (17 Nov 2010)

I would also add the Irish opposition partys for their constant bellowing for more and more spending.


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## MrMan (17 Nov 2010)

thedaras said:


> I too like the company of friends and family, including those who have left and are planning to leave this country. Ireland has some great countryside, but much of it pales in comparison to landscapes in places like France, not to mention our 6 month winter. As for sports facilities, we are third rate at best when compared to other developed countries.
> Our education standards continue to slide....children will have plenty of opportunities to 'enjoy' sub-standard education.
> 
> My home is where my children are, and their home is where their parents are.
> ...


 

6 month winter, 3rd rate sporting facilities, a countryside that shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as that of France (have you actually been around Ireland?). Our education is dipping, although I seem to remember you delighting at the success of your child in recent exams. This all begs the question, what haven't you left already? surely you don't choose a country to reside in purely based on how it's govt runs the economy and the tax rate?
Your summary of the last 90 years of this country seems to point at maybe 5-10 years of decent living in that time, again why are you still here?
You call Yorricks post ignorant and rubbish and you have received many pats on the back for it, yet there you are stating the people who voted FF during the history of the state didn't have a right mind. 
An opinion that differs from yours gets ridiculed, but please take some time and make a considered response rather than trying merely to win an argument.
For the record, I would gladly sign up to live in my country, and hopefully the place can regain its soul so that decisions are not based on tax rates govt policies when people choose whether or not to go on living here.


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## Teatime (17 Nov 2010)

cork said:


> I would also add the Irish opposition partys for their constant bellowing for more and more spending.


 
Thats a key point. No matter how generous the budgets became, the opposition always found fault with them, those faults essentially being that not enough money was given out somewhere else. FG/Lab finance spokespeople look quite childish giving out budgets which were giving away money left right and centre. Not once did I hear them shout stop.


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## Complainer (17 Nov 2010)

cork said:


> Pot calling the kettle black IMO.
> 
> The same Irish voters who were responsible for the bubble?
> 
> FF were not largely in control of local government.



So FF didn't run the Dept Environment? Was Martin Cullen not an FF Minister when he burnt up €60 million of our money on a pile of one-arm-bandit voting machines? Was he not an FF Minister when he issued a Ministerial directive to Dun Laoghaire Rathdown Co Co to rezone MORE land?



Yorrick said:


> If you got free money from SSIA and voted F.F. look in the mirror.
> You availed of free third level education and voted Labour for being good to you look in the mirror. The Irish people encouraged and rewarded auction politics. We pay for it now. Grow up and take your share of the responsibility.


This line is usually being peddled by FF voters and supporters to spread the blame. Let's make no mistake about it - Fianna Fail have been in power for the last 15 years. They have sold us out our sovreignty.



cork said:


> Who was to blame?
> 
> The horse has bolted but let me make a start
> 
> ...


More attempts to muddy the waters and share the blame. All of these parties are led by the Government. FF were very quick to claim the credit for the good times, so they must take the hit for the bad times.

They will be wiped out. Remember what happened in Canada, when the ruling party dropped to just 2 seats?


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## Pique318 (18 Nov 2010)

Complainer said:


> They will be wiped out. Remember what happened in Canada, when the ruling party dropped to just 2 seats?


We should be so lucky !


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## Caveat (18 Nov 2010)

Well there you have it - the deniers may deny no more it seems.

Patrick Honohan has stated that terms of a loan in the region of 10s of billions is to be discussed (today?) with the IMF, ECB & any other acronym that has more than a half arsed idea about economics than this country has.


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## thedaras (18 Nov 2010)

Heard him on radio this morning.At last, someone prepared to speak plain English..

I saw an article yesterday that the TEEU, are running a course on emigration...I rest my case...

Im off now to withdraw my millions from the banks


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## Betsy Og (18 Nov 2010)

I feel a bit or relief (now now, there's no Cara magazines in sight) that the masquerade is drawing to a close, the markets will calm down and we'll get on with the latest version of "new reality".

p.s. I see our friend Myers is again bemoaning our lack of tanks guarding the beaches and generally rubbing salt in the wounds. Hoping that the current international hysteria will be reflected upon as a nine day wonder.


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## cork (18 Nov 2010)

Complainer said:


> They will be wiped out. Remember what happened in Canada, when the ruling party dropped to just 2 seats?



It was other political partys who wanted to cut stamp duty prior to the last election.

Cowen stood up aganist lobby groups, media and opposition on this.

The horse has now bolted.

we now need plans to get out of this.


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## Complainer (18 Nov 2010)

cork said:


> It was other political partys who wanted to cut stamp duty prior to the last election.
> 
> Cowen stood up aganist lobby groups, media and opposition on this.


Really? You'd better tell Matt Cooper that the very detailed explanation of how Bertie and Cowen suddendly changed their minds about stamp duty after being summonsed to the townhouse of Tony O'Reilly for a briefing (or bollicking) is not correct.

Cowen stood up to nobody.


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## cork (18 Nov 2010)

Cowen made some minor changes.

Major changes were demamnded by both FG and Independeent Newspapers.


Opposition partys were looking for more spending and less tax at the last election.


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## Complainer (18 Nov 2010)

cork said:


> Cowen made some minor changes.
> 
> Major changes were demamnded by both FG and Independeent Newspapers.


Matt got it completely wrong so. Sure what would he know anyway....


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## cork (18 Nov 2010)

I agree - the media gave a lot to answer for:

glossy property supplements, property shows and no critical anaysis of economic policies.


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## Complainer (18 Nov 2010)

cork said:


> I agree - the media gave a lot to answer for:


Thanks, that's the best laugh I've had all week in these challenging times!


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