# Public sector pay rise



## Sunnysoutheast (16 May 2022)

Unions are starting to negotiate with the government regarding pay rises. When realistically could an increase in salary for a public servant be expected?


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## PebbleBeach2020 (16 May 2022)

There's a 1% pay rise due 1st October 2022.


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## Sunnysoutheast (17 May 2022)

PebbleBeach2020 said:


> There's a 1% pay rise due 1st October 2022.


Yes, thanks, was wondering about a pay rise closer to the rate of inflation...


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## TRS30 (17 May 2022)

Sunnysoutheast said:


> Yes, thanks, was wondering about a pay rise closer to the rate of inflation...



Aren't we all.....


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## Dunelm (17 May 2022)

I wouldn’t be expecting an increase to match inflation. At a guess I would 2 % rise in October instead of 1%. With maybe the same to follow next year.


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## Sunnysoutheast (17 May 2022)

TRS30 said:


> Aren't we all.....


I know!!


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## Purple (17 May 2022)

Sunnysoutheast said:


> Yes, thanks, was wondering about a pay rise closer to the rate of inflation...


That would cause additional inflation.
I heard some crazy lady on the wireless from one of the teachers conferences saying that pay rises should match the rate of inflation and should really be at the level where teachers could afford to buy a house. I feel sorry for the kids she's teaching.


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## Itchy (17 May 2022)

Sunnysoutheast said:


> Yes, thanks, was wondering about a pay rise closer to the rate of inflation...



A pay rise is hardly going to solve the inflation problem!









						The Bank of England has only one solution to rising inflation – make workers pay | Daniela Gabor
					

Andrew Bailey’s stance on pay restraint shows how out of touch the governor is, says Daniela Gabor of UWE Bristol




					www.theguardian.com


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## Sunnysoutheast (17 May 2022)

Itchy said:


> A pay rise is hardly going to solve the inflation problem!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting article, thanks.


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## noproblem (18 May 2022)

Sunnysoutheast said:


> Interesting article, thanks.


Interesting article? Reading it from abroad, 2 hrs ahead of Ireland and it's like a Met Éireann weather forecast. A little bit of everything for everyone, but nothing for anyone. Then again it's British so what can one expect?
By the way, the sun is just rising, expect 24/25 deg in a few hours with a gentle warming breeze. Have a nice day. Now, where's me Nescafe?


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## Threadser (18 May 2022)

A "pay rise" less than the rate of inflation is a pay cut surely? Prices are rising at an alarming rate. Interest rate rises from ECB will def be needed soon which will impact those on tracker and variable rate mortgages. Worrying scenario for low and middle income workers across public and private sector.


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## T McGibney (18 May 2022)

noproblem said:


> Interesting article? Reading it from abroad, 2 hrs ahead of Ireland and it's like a Met Éireann weather forecast. A little bit of everything for everyone, but nothing for anyone. *Then again it's British so what can one expect?*
> By the way, the sun is just rising, expect 24/25 deg in a few hours with a gentle warming breeze. Have a nice day. Now, where's me Nescafe?


#everydayxenophobia?


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## T McGibney (18 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> A "pay rise" less than the rate of inflation is a pay cut surely? Prices are rising at an alarming rate. Interest rate rises from ECB will def be needed soon which will impact those on tracker and variable rate mortgages. Worrying scenario for low and middle income workers across public and private sector.


The only solution to runaway inflation is unfortunately a decline in demand, ie living standards.


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## Threadser (18 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> The only solution to runaway inflation is unfortunately a decline in demand, ie living standards.


Yes, hard to see how this inflationary cycle will be turned around. Interest rate rises may start the process.


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## Allpartied (18 May 2022)

Most of the inflation comes from supply side causes, rather than rampant demand.   That is to say, the supply of essential items has been curtailed, or reduced and the price is, therefore, increasing.  Maybe, that means the prices will fall when supply is restored, but with war in Ukraine and China's Zero Covid policy, linked with a myriad of supply chain issues, that is unlikely in the near term.
Most of the tools used by Central Banks to deal with inflation are designed to deal with the demand side causes.  If you increase interest rates, when supply is the issue, it won't make a damn difference to inflation.  All it will do is reduce the amount of money in most people's pockets and cause even more businesses to increase prices to cover their loans.
It's a tricky one, but pay rises, in line with inflation, might be the lesser of two evils.   If you do nothing, demand will certainly reduce, as people scramble to cover the essentials, but it won't, necessarily, reduce inflation, because most of the inflation is coming from essentials like energy, food and housing.  The economy will be in that rare , but terrifying, zone of rising inflation and falling demand, or Stagflation as it is known.


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## cremeegg (18 May 2022)

Purple said:


> That would cause additional inflation.
> I heard some crazy lady on the wireless from one of the teachers conferences saying that pay rises should match the rate of inflation and should really be at the level where teachers could afford to buy a house. I feel sorry for the kids she's teaching.


Yes obviously a society where teachers cannot afford to buy a house is preferable to one where they can.


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## Johnno75 (18 May 2022)

Will there be increases in productivity in the public sector to match the pay rise sought? (Because I haven’t seen much of that around lately!)


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## noproblem (18 May 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> Will there be increases in productivity in the public sector to match the pay rise sought? (Because I haven’t seen much of that around lately!)


Like for example?


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## fistophobia (18 May 2022)

No pay rises above 1%.
Anything else would cause a wage price spiral.
Get used to the real world of higher cost of living.


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## noproblem (18 May 2022)

fistophobia said:


> No pay rises above 1%.
> Anything else would cause a wage price spiral.
> Get used to the real world of higher cost of living.


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## Protocol (19 May 2022)

Purchases are somebody else's income.

So if the CPI is up 7.5%, then somebody's income is up 7.5%.

Some of the people receiving the higher incomes are energy exporting nations.

Others are hotel owners / restaurants / lots of different types of businesses.

(you see some small firms on AAM reporting bumper profits)

Corporate profits seem to be very strong.


Given this, I'm not sure that PS will be happy with a 1% pay rise, if other earners are getting 7.5% extra.


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## Purple (19 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> A "pay rise" less than the rate of inflation is a pay cut surely?


No, it's still a pay rise, but one which is below the rate of inflation.


cremeegg said:


> Yes obviously a society where teachers cannot afford to buy a house is preferable to one where they can.


I disagree. Why do you think it's a good thing?
We have a sufficient supply of teachers. Doubling or trebling their pay so that they can afford a house would not be a good idea. I'd rather see housing getting cheaper. That would involve a massive stock market crash and a corresponding reduction in the cost of capital items generally. We need to undo over a decade of QE.


Johnno75 said:


> Will there be increases in productivity in the public sector to match the pay rise sought? (Because I haven’t seen much of that around lately!)


While it's very hard to measure that it's also very important to try. 
In by opinion we need significantly more Civil Servants but no net overall increase in State employees.

If we can get enough suitably paid people to do a particular job then they are paid enough. The market decides what suitable pay levels are as long as the market is open.


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## Purple (19 May 2022)

Protocol said:


> Purchases are somebody else's income.
> 
> So if the CPI is up 7.5%, then somebody's income is up 7.5%.
> 
> ...


If they have the same misunderstanding of things they won't be. If they understand that a 7.5% increase in prices does not equate to a 7.5% pay rise then maybe they will. We don't produce petroleum or coffee or glass or clothes or plastics or TV's or Phones or most of the food we consume. You do get that most of that extra price is just extra cost, right?


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## deanpark (19 May 2022)

I also read that 37 hours per week imposed due to Troika will reduce back to 35 hours from this July. Is this the case?  Happy days if so!


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## Threadser (19 May 2022)

Purple said:


> We have a sufficient supply of teachers. Doubling or trebling their pay so that they can afford a house would not be a good idea. I'd rather see housing getting cheaper.


There is a big shortage of teachers, particularly substitute teachers at primary level. I agree that reducing the cost of housing would be preferable to pay rises chasing house prices.


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## Allpartied (19 May 2022)

Purple said:


> I disagree. Why do you think it's a good thing?
> We have a sufficient supply of teachers. Doubling or trebling their pay so that they can afford a house would not be a good idea. I'd rather see housing getting cheaper. That would involve a massive stock market crash and a corresponding reduction in the cost of capital items generally. We need to undo over a decade of QE.


What you are proposing is a massive deflationary depression.   We nearly had one in 2008, but goverments and central banks decided to throw everything at preventing it and, largely, succeeded.
The  last time Europe had a significant deflationary depression was in the  1930's.  It wasn't a good experience.  Eventually economic growth resumed in the 1950's, although quite a lot of stuff happened inbetween.


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## Johnno75 (19 May 2022)

Based on my limited recent experience in my dealings with various sections of the public service, productivity is certainly down compared to pre-covid levels. My experience does not count for a lot but I’ve read the news reportage and heard the usual anecdotal stories which support my view. 

Revenue staff are unavailable after 1:30pm. 

The passport office is effectively uncontactable by phone or webchat (email contact is non-existent) and is engaging in inefficient practices leading to unnecessary delay. 

The RTB has recently updated its website and processes but the customer experience is woeful (I’m waiting to hear back from them in relation to deactivating my account and linking it to my new one). 

The LSRA complaints process is taking up to two years to deal with complaints, and sometimes longer. 

Ditto with the FSPO. 

Teachers have not been working at full tilt during the pandemic. Different schools worked at different paces (“home schooling” in my case was an email on a Friday night with lessons for the following week, whereas another school locally had sporadic online lessons for the children). 

People with disabilities are suffering owing to the unavailability of therapeutic services. 

Only today, I’ve read that Iarnrod Éireann have lost their catering contractor resulting in no catering on inter city lines. 

The list goes on, and whilst I’m not blaming the workers, the reality is that the powers that be are currently presiding over systems that are inefficient, less productive than they could be and not always fit for purpose. 

I think personally that the state blanket policy of allowing staff to work from home (and indeed insisting in some instances) has masked a drop in productivity across the entire civil and public service, and indeed the economy. However, nobody seems to be willing to do anything about it. 

Hence my earlier comment concerning increased productivity.


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## Purple (19 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> There is a big shortage of teachers, particularly substitute teachers at primary level. I agree that reducing the cost of housing would be preferable to pay rises chasing house prices.


This could go off on a tangent very quickly so I'll just make the point that saying that teachers salaries should be increased until they can afford a house is a really really really stupid idea. Highlighting housing affordability issues is a great idea but that solution is moronic.


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## Protocol (19 May 2022)

Purple said:


> If they have the same misunderstanding of things they won't be. If they understand that a 7.5% increase in prices does not equate to a 7.5% pay rise then maybe they will. We don't produce petroleum or coffee or glass or clothes or plastics or TV's or Phones or most of the food we consume. You do get that most of that extra price is just extra cost, right?


All income = all expenditure

If costs go up, then somebody's income has gone up.

Yes, clearly, many of these people are abroad.


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## Purple (19 May 2022)

Protocol said:


> All income = all expenditure
> 
> If costs go up, then somebody's income has gone up.
> 
> Yes, clearly, many of these people are abroad.


Yes, but their pay might not have gone up, their profits and their pay may have decreased. 
If a person made a profit they may not live in this country. The profit was probably made by a pension fund that traded a commodity that increased in price and led to the cost going up.


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## CuriousGeorge11 (19 May 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> Based on my limited recent experience in my dealings with various sections of the public service, productivity is certainly down compared to pre-covid levels. My experience does not count for a lot but I’ve read the news reportage and heard the usual anecdotal stories which support my view.
> 
> Revenue staff are unavailable after 1:30pm.
> 
> ...



Didnt Social welfare and Revenue implement and handle that pandemic payment at the drop of a hat or should we ignore that


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## Purple (19 May 2022)

CuriousGeorge11 said:


> Didnt Social welfare and Revenue implement and handle that pandemic payment at the drop of a hat or should we ignore that


Fair point. The new structures introduced during Covid that were built from scratch were generally excellent. The problem is changing existing structures were Unionised intransigence and bad work practices are engrained. The State Sector is certainly not alone in that.


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## Johnno75 (19 May 2022)

CuriousGeorge11 said:


> Didnt Social welfare and Revenue implement and handle that pandemic payment at the drop of a hat or should we ignore that


To Revenue’s credit, they did. That was during the pandemic and the subsidies were a crucial lifeline for many businesses adversely affected by the lockdowns eg the hospitality sector. Revenue staff will remain working from home until September when “hybrid” working arrangements will kick in i.e. working from home combined with office working arrangements. 

But Revenue’s focus on administration of the TWSS and EWSS subsidies came at a significant cost to the State. Enforcement and tax collection from defaulters ceased entirely during the pandemic period (two years), including for businesses who defaulted but who could easily afford to pay and businesses unaffected by the pandemic which earned the same, if not more, than what they did before the pandemic. 

Billions in tax debt was warehoused, by default, and Revenue are on record as stating that up to 25% of warehoused debt will not be recoverable and will have to be written off. 

Productivity will have to get back to pre-covid levels if the State has any hope of minimising the projected loss to the exchequer.


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## jfrank (19 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> The only solution to runaway inflation is unfortunately a decline in demand, ie living standards.


Yep Tommy, inflation chasing pay increases only results in more inflation and so the cycle starts again


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## Itchy (19 May 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> Based on my limited recent experience in my dealings with various sections of the public service, productivity is certainly down compared to pre-covid levels. My experience does not count for a lot but I’ve read the news reportage and heard the usual anecdotal stories which support my view.
> 
> Revenue staff are unavailable after 1:30pm.



Is this official policy and _why _are they not available? 



Johnno75 said:


> The passport office is effectively uncontactable by phone or webchat (email contact is non-existent) and is engaging in inefficient practices leading to unnecessary delay.



Not one post in this thread since January





__





						Passport application delays
					

The adult renewals seem to have pretty cursory checks. It seems pretty automated and often in your letterbox within 48 hours.  Child renewals take longer as there is more scrutiny AFAIK.



					www.askaboutmoney.com
				






Johnno75 said:


> The RTB has recently updated its website and processes but the customer experience is woeful (I’m waiting to hear back from them in relation to deactivating my account and linking it to my new one).
> 
> The LSRA complaints process is taking up to two years to deal with complaints, and sometimes longer.
> 
> ...






Johnno75 said:


> People with disabilities are suffering owing to the unavailability of therapeutic services.


Political/resourcing decision. This was severe prior to Covid. 



Johnno75 said:


> Only today, I’ve read that Iarnrod Éireann have lost their catering contractor resulting in no catering on inter city lines.



The _private sector_ contractor can't/won't provide the service for the agreed fee. It has to be re-tendered. How is that a public sector productivity issue?



Johnno75 said:


> The list goes on, and whilst I’m not blaming the workers, the reality is that the powers that be are currently presiding over systems that are inefficient, less productive than they could be and not always fit for purpose.
> 
> I think personally that the state blanket policy of allowing staff to work from home (and indeed insisting in some instances) has masked a drop in productivity across the entire civil and public service, and indeed the economy. However, nobody seems to be willing to do anything about it.
> 
> Hence my earlier comment concerning increased productivity.



I think your criticisms are overly harsh - "the entire civil and public service"? Literally everyone?

"nobody seems to be willing to do anything about it" - That's false. In relation to the passport office, there has been well documented recruitment drive, drafting of staff in from other areas of the public service and new facilities brought online. 

Can't definitively state what the effects on productivity are from a WFH perspective but the state policy is mirroring the approach or adopting a more restrictive approach of some parts of the private sector.


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## Deiseblue (19 May 2022)

fistophobia said:


> No pay rises above 1%.
> Anything else would cause a wage price spiral.
> Get used to the real world of higher cost of living.


Michael McGrath , the Minister for Public Expenditure has confirmed that the Government will go beyond the terms of the current pay agreement albeit in a balanced way.
Any increase will , I would imagine , not match the inflation figure but thankfully nor will it be as low as 1%


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## Johnno75 (19 May 2022)

Itchy said:


> Not one post in this thread since January


https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ire...000-people-waiting-for-passports-1299054.html.  

Fair enough, obviously not all civil or public servants/bodies are unproductive, but my experience of several disparate unlinked public service bodies in various sectors doesn’t paint a good picture. 

I used to be a Public Servant and we all know how it works. In many instances, what would take a week to do in the private sector can take months in the public sector. 

I wish the public service employees well in the negotiations and undoubtedly a pay rise is warranted in many instances. I also wish I could get through to Revenue, the Passport Office, have my complaint dealt with efficiently by the LSRA, register my tenancy with RTB, buy a coffee and a sandwich on the train and so on.


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## noproblem (19 May 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> Michael McGrath , the Minister for Public Expenditure has confirmed that the Government will go beyond the terms of the current pay agreement albeit in a balanced way.
> Any increase will , I would imagine , not match the inflation figure but thankfully nor will it be as low as 1%


Oh dear. This news could just tip Purple over the edge when he finds out.


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## Itchy (19 May 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ire...000-people-waiting-for-passports-1299054.html.


The _reason_ why there are delays up to eight weeks is that when you contact the passport office and they confirm that everything is in order, they will prioritise issuing you the passport. I know this because I was in the same boat last July. I posted about it in the thread I referenced.

https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/passport-application-delays.208392/post-1737607

The reason why there are so many applications in the system is that >50% of clowns (applicants) didn’t bother to meet the requirements. Hardly a civil service productivity issue. 

Current turn around time for a first time applicant is 30 days. Seems reasonable for such a valuable document. 





__





						Current Turnaround Times - Department of Foreign Affairs
					

Latest passport application turnaround information from online renewals, passport express and applications from Great Britain



					www.dfa.ie
				





Johnno75 said:


> I used to be a Public Servant and we all know how it works. In many instances, what would take a week to do in the private sector can take months in the public sector.


Yeah, not sold. Maybe if it’s a money sucking activity. Try getting customer service from Eir, Vodafone, an Irish bank. I am literally waiting for a plumber to turn up at the house who has missed two earlier appointments! No reason, no apology. 



Johnno75 said:


> I wish the public service employees well in the negotiations and undoubtedly a pay rise is warranted in many instances. I also wish I could get through to Revenue, the Passport Office, have my complaint dealt with efficiently by the LSRA, register my tenancy with RTB,


I don’t know anything about the RTB but aren’t they registering 99.9% of all possible rental properties in the state at the pretty much the same time?

“buy a coffee and a sandwich on the train” 

I mean the private sector operator won’t pay enough to get the staff it needs to provide the service it contractually agreed to?!! It’s the private sector leaving you high and dry!! 

I feel like I’m defending the PS here which I don’t intend to. But equally, overly general criticism of low productivity is just a simplistic narrative.


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## Johnno75 (19 May 2022)

Itchy said:


> The reason why there are so many applications in the system is that >50% of clowns (applicants) didn’t bother to meet the requirements. Hardly a civil service productivity issue.


I submitted an application to the Passport Office in January and still await a passport renewal for my daughter. The application process in my instance has failed. I’m also not a clown. (Way to go with the overly general criticism and simplistic narrative there @Itchy!)

I won’t rehearse my issues here, but do feel free to cast your eye over this thread which identifies my ongoing issues, all of which speak to productivity and efficiency:





__





						Passport renewal online tips?
					

I have to renew my passport online.. so I see I have to upload a photo digitally.. any tips on how best to do this as I envisage problems in that regard.. TIA



					www.askaboutmoney.com
				




Anyways, I don’t have the inclination to be dealing with endless tit-for-tat exchanges with a person who labels paying passport customers as clowns, so the very best of luck to you.


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## Itchy (19 May 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> I submitted an application to the Passport Office in January and still await a passport renewal for my daughter. The application process in my instance has failed. I’m also not a clown. (Way to go with the overly general criticism and simplistic narrative there @Itchy!)
> 
> I won’t rehearse my issues here, but do feel free to cast your eye over this thread which identifies my ongoing issues, all of which speak to productivity and efficiency:
> 
> ...



That’s ok. For clarity, i wasn’t calling _you_ a clown. To clarify, from the point of view of assessing civil service productivity, more than 50% of applications require additional attention that is unforecastable by the office. This is due to errors made by applicants not due to PS procedures. Of course they can predict it to a certain degree but not with certainty. These errors are magnified given the _unprecedented_ volume of applications arising from Brexit. 

In the thread you cited, you state that you have received your own passport card in 48 hours! Yet the service is condemned for inefficiency/low productivity?

You also highlighted the problem of the photograph being accepted on the website and rejected by staff when reviewed. The application process has not failed. The AI reduces the instances of inappropriate photographs being submitted _improving_ the efficiency of the overall service. Of course there will be false positives and you were unlucky. 

It’s frustrating for _you_ personally, but to me that’s a sign of the system working. The integrity of the system is far more important than speed for the individual. Suppose the photograph gets through the system automatically, would it not be more frustrating being denied entry to a country when the passport is rejected due to an inappropriate photograph? 

Bad luck for you this time but you’ve highlighted (to me anyway) the quality of the service. Meeting agreed timelines in your own case and safeguarding the integrity of the system by not just blindly nodding through AI approved imagery.


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## Purple (20 May 2022)

Most people work in small organisations. This is particularly the case in the private sector. Many large organisations in the private sector in this country are med-tech and fin-tech Multinationals. These are the very best organised large companies in the world. 

Most people only experience interacting with large organisations which are State sector. They then think that the issue is that they are state sector bodies, not that they are large organisations but Banks and utility companies are just as likely to be rubbish as any government body we interact with. 

My Revolute Card has been suspended for 7 months. I can't get anyone there to tell me why or how it can be resolved. We all have bad experiences of trying to contact phone or broadband providers. 
The problem is that the services the State provides are more important. The gross inefficiency in Eir is frustrating. The gross inefficiency in the Health Service kills people. 

Should Public Servants get pay rises? Probably, but their employer is still borrowing money to fund day to day expenditure so caution is required.
Should those pay rises match inflation? That's a daft idea. 
It should also be noted that "Increments" are pay rises.


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## Peanuts20 (20 May 2022)

PebbleBeach2020 said:


> There's a 1% pay rise due 1st October 2022.


+ any increments due which are pay rises although never really acknowledged as such by the unions


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## NoRegretsCoyote (20 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> + any increments due which are pay rises although never really acknowledged as such by the unions


They are not pay rises. They are part of the inherent structure of the PS pay system.


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## Peanuts20 (20 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> They are not pay rises. They are part of the inherent structure of the PS pay system.


no, they are pay rises. Just because they are not called that does not mean they are not payrises. Do the staff impacted get paid more as a result?. Yes = Payrise


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## Purple (20 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> They are not pay rises. They are part of the inherent structure of the PS pay system.


The individuals pay increases. That's called a pay rise.


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## Deiseblue (20 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> They are not pay rises. They are part of the inherent structure of the PS pay system.


Absolutely the same incremental system  system applied in the Banks and various other private sector businesses and were seen as rewards for loyalty and increasing experience and were never seen as part of pay rise negotiations.
Neither employers nor employees representatives ever considered such increments when it came to pay negotiations , thankfully this practice still continues.


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## Peanuts20 (20 May 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> Absolutely the same incremental system  system applied in the Banks and various other private sector businesses and were seen as rewards for loyalty and increasing experience and were never seen as part of pay rise negotiations.
> Neither employers nor employees representatives ever considered such increments when it came to pay negotiations , thankfully this practice still continues.



Done away with in the vast majority of private sector companies nowadays. At the end of the day, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck.........


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## Deiseblue (20 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> Done away with in the vast majority of private sector companies nowadays. At the end of the day, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck.........


Then it's a duck not a pay rise !
Increments still abound in the private sector , no bad thing.


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## Purple (20 May 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> Then it's a duck not a pay rise !
> Increments still abound in the private sector , no bad thing.


Not in sectors open to real competition, just in the protected sector. 
An increase in pay is a pay rise, arguing otherwise is ridiculous.  
An increase in the overall pay scale is also a pay rise. If you get a promotion and a corresponding increase in pay that’s also a pay rise… or when you tell someone about a promotion and they ask you if you got a pay rise to go with it would you say no, your pay increased but it wasn’t a pay rise? 

Only in the mad alternative world of trade union land would that make sense.


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## noproblem (20 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Not in sectors open to real competition, just in the protected sector.
> An increase in pay is a pay rise, arguing otherwise is ridiculous.
> An increase in the overall pay scale is also a pay rise. If you get a promotion and a corresponding increase in pay that’s also a pay rise… or when you tell someone about a promotion and they ask you if you got a pay rise to go with it would you say no, your pay increased but it wasn’t a pay rise?
> 
> Only in the mad alternative world of trade union land would that make sense.


Very few in the public service have had any pay rise in a long long time.  They have had massive pay cuts reversed, they're not pay rises.


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## Johnno75 (21 May 2022)

noproblem said:


> Very few in the public service have had any pay rise in a long long time.  They have had massive pay cuts reversed, they're not pay rises.


Also however, not one employee in the public service suffered a pay cut during the pandemic and various lockdowns when thousands of employees (and employers) in the private sector, particularly hospitality, saw their incomes reduced and turnover decimated.


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## Purple (21 May 2022)

noproblem said:


> Very few in the public service have had any pay rise in a long long time.  They have had massive pay cuts reversed, they're not pay rises.


They got small pay cuts. Those cuts have been reversed but they have continued to get other pay rides in the form of increments. 
I’m not saying that public servants are over paid, in fact the numbers suggest that at the higher end they are under paid. I do think that structural inefficiencies in the broader state sector need to be addressed, as do work practices in some areas.


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## Purple (21 May 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> Also however, not one employee in the public service suffered a pay cut during the pandemic and various lockdowns when thousands of employees (and employers) in the private sector, particularly hospitality, saw their incomes reduced and turnover decimated.


Ah they did. They worked more hours and were hit with a pension levy. That’s a lower hourly rate and increased deductions. That’s a pay cut.


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## Johnno75 (21 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Ah they did. They worked more hours and were hit with a pension levy. That’s a lower hourly rate and increased deductions. That’s a pay cut.


During the pandemic?? 

The pensions levy (and additional hours) came in years before the pandemic, unless there was another levy or working hour increase of which I’m unaware? 

I’m fairly sure the state working-from-home policy did not result in increased working hours.


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## Threadser (21 May 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> not one employee in the public service suffered a pay cut during the pandemic


Untrue, in teaching for example substitute teachers were unable to secure any work when schools were closed.


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## Threadser (21 May 2022)

Purple said:


> They got small pay cuts


The pay cuts were not small and included a very large decrease in take home pay with the introduction of the ASC (additional superannuation contribution) which is an extra tax imposed on public servants only. It might be justified for pre 95 entrants but  those on the single scheme post 2013 have vastly inferior pensions. Many also risked their health and that of their families working in crowded environments before vaccinations during the pandemic.


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## tallpaul (21 May 2022)

Civil Servants’ pay is now back where it was at the end of 2008, some FOURTEEN years later. If that is a small pay cut, I would hate to see a large one.


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## Johnno75 (21 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> Untrue, in teaching for example substitute teachers were unable to secure any work when schools were closed.


That’s not a pay cut.


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## deanpark (21 May 2022)

I came in to PS in 2012 on €89k p a. & it was reduced to 84k overnight in 2013. I was on a 3 year ftc contract there at the time so it wasnt like I had a job for life. That was the reality. Brutal.


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## Threadser (21 May 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> That’s not a pay cut.


If your source of income is gone then your pay is cut?


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## Threadser (21 May 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> when thousands of employees (and employers) in the private sector, particularly hospitality, saw their incomes reduced and turnover decimated.


Your definition of a pay cut is having your income reduced?


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## Johnno75 (21 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> If your source of income is gone then your pay is cut?


Fair point


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## Protocol (21 May 2022)

Purple said:


> They got small pay cuts. Those cuts have been reversed but they have continued to get other pay rides in the form of increments.
> I’m not saying that public servants are over paid, in fact the numbers suggest that at the higher end they are under paid. I do think that structural inefficiencies in the broader state sector need to be addressed, as do work practices in some areas.




Purple, there was a confusion there. Johnno75 was referring to the pandemic, not the Great Recession of 2008-2012.

There were two, three or even four paycuts during 2008 to 2013 ish.

Those pay cuts have, more or less, been restored by pay rises since around 2016.


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## Purple (22 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> The pay cuts were not small and included a very large decrease in take home pay with the introduction of the ASC (additional superannuation contribution) which is an extra tax imposed on public servants only.


It was an additional contribution to their pensions. They still come nowhere near finding them, the vast majority of private sector employees also don’t fund their own state pension. 


Threadser said:


> It might be justified for pre 95 entrants but  those on the single scheme post 2013 have vastly inferior pensions.


I agree. Both pre 95 and retired public servants should have had to share the pain.


Threadser said:


> Many also risked their health and that of their families working in crowded environments before vaccinations during the pandemic.


While there was considerable uncertainty and therefore considerable bravery amongst employees in the healthcare industry there was actually low to moderate risk for them and none worth talking about in the education sector. 
Outside of Covid there is no healthcare or state employment sector that makes it into the top 100 most dangerous jobs.


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## Threadser (22 May 2022)

Purple said:


> none worth talking about in the education sector.


Strange because statistics from the UK (we don't bother compiling any here) show that from the 2nd Covid Wave onwards those working in Education are among those most likely to suffer with Long Covid along with health and social care staff. office for National Statistics showing that those working in the education sector are 37 per cent more likely to test positive for Covid-19


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## NoRegretsCoyote (23 May 2022)

According to the CSO, over the seven years from Q42014 average hourly earnings in the public sector have risen by 14%, and the private sector by 21%.

Inflation was 7% over the same period. This left public sector workers with about a 7% real pay increase,* approximately half* the real pay increase experienced by the private sector of 13%.

A lot of ground has been lost by public sector workers over the period and I don't think there is an Irish journalist who has spotted this.


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## Peanuts20 (23 May 2022)

Plenty of people in the private sector took cuts when the Tiger collapsed and many many more lost their livelihood during Covid.

Outside of the banks, increments are almost non-existent in the private sector. Given the fact that 4 major banks will have closed in Ireland over the last 10 years and the fact that almost every bank branch in the country will be gone in the next 10, increments won't really exist in the Private Sector by then, 

Increments are really only a reward for not resigning and I really really really wish the Public Sector would call them what they really are, a pay rise.


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> Strange because statistics from the UK (we don't bother compiling any here) show that from the 2nd Covid Wave onwards those working in Education are among those most likely to suffer with Long Covid along with health and social care staff. office for National Statistics showing that those working in the education sector are 37 per cent more likely to test positive for Covid-19


Okay, but the chances of testing positive for Covid was relatively low and the chances of becoming very is or dying from Covid are extremely low. If the chances of infection was a multiple of other sectors then it would be of real concern. 
You'd hardly expect a Magazine for teachers not to play up the risk. They need something to talk about when they are telling each other and everyone else how wonderful they are.


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> According to the CSO, over the seven years from Q42014 average hourly earnings in the public sector have risen by 14%, and the private sector by 21%.
> 
> Inflation was 7% over the same period. This left public sector workers with about a 7% real pay increase,* approximately half* the real pay increase experienced by the private sector of 13%.
> 
> A lot of ground has been lost by public sector workers over the period and I don't think there is an Irish journalist who has spotted this.


Fair points but in the period leading up to the 2008 crash the State sector enjoyed massive pay increases, well ahead of the private sector. Picking a segment on the graph really tells us nothing.


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## Protocol (23 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> Plenty of people in the private sector took cuts when the Tiger collapsed and many many more lost their livelihood during Covid.



During the Great Recession 2008-2012, there were cuts to overtime, bonuses, etc., and lots of people lost their jobs.

However, cuts to basic pay were rare, mainly due to the fact that neither the employer nor the workers want it to happen.

The only sector where there were general cuts to basic pay was the public sector.


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## Threadser (23 May 2022)

Purple said:


> You'd hardly expect a Magazine for teachers not to play up the risk. They need something to talk about when they are telling each other and everyone else how wonderful they are.


No need for the side swipe. The statistics compiled in the UK speak for themselves.


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

Protocol said:


> During the Great Recession 2008-2012, there were cuts to overtime, bonuses, etc., and lots of people lost their jobs.
> 
> However, cuts to basic pay were rare, mainly due to the fact that neither the employer nor the workers want it to happen.
> 
> The only sector where there were general cuts to basic pay was the public sector.


Fair point, but it's also fair to say that no permanent employee lost their job in the Public sector, despite their employer effectively being bankrupt. In fact their employer is still borrowing to fund day to day expenditure, including paying their wages.


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## Protocol (23 May 2022)

Nobody was mace compulsorily redundant, correct.

But numbers fell.

For example, local government employment fell from 38,000 in 2008 to 28,500 now.


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## Protocol (23 May 2022)

The State may have run *current *budget deficits in 2020 and maybe in 2021, yes.

But not in 2022.


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## noproblem (23 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Fair point, but it's also fair to say that no permanent employee lost their job in the Public sector, despite their employer effectively being bankrupt. In fact their employer is still borrowing to fund day to day expenditure, including paying their wages.


As is every country in the world, so what's your point? You may be confusing the Goverments  with business owners, etc. 
Your chip on the shoulder with regards to public servants is beginning to wear somewhat thin at this stage. Is it possible you didn't make the grade at one stage or another?


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

noproblem said:


> As is every country in the world, so what's your point?


Bankrupt employers rarely give pay rises.


noproblem said:


> You may be confusing the Goverments  with business owners, etc.


Fiscal responsibility is important to businesses who are spending their own money. It should be important to governments too, even though they are spending other people's money. 



noproblem said:


> Your chip on the shoulder with regards to public servants is beginning to wear somewhat thin at this stage. Is it possible you didn't make the grade at one stage or another?


No, I've a high regard for the Irish Civil Service. I think they do a good job, are significantly under staffed and at the higher levels significantly under paid.
I find the need amongst teachers in particular, and nurses to a slightly lesser extent, for continuous validation by strangers to be bizarre. I also find self-aggrandisement distasteful. In that I am critical of them in that regard but both groups do an okay job. We have an average enough education system, significantly better than our very well funded health system. 
I don't think we have a bad State Sector or that they are less hard working than the private sector or that they are over paid. I do think that the cancer that is Trade Unions causes vast waste and, in the case of the Healthcare Sector, considerable death and needless suffering. So I don't have a chip on my shoulder but I do have an intense dislike of Unions and the impact they have on the poor and vulnerable.


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

Protocol said:


> The State may have run *current *budget deficits in 2020 and maybe in 2021, yes.
> 
> But not in 2022.


Yea, but we are a quarter of a trillion in debt.


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## Peanuts20 (23 May 2022)

Protocol said:


> During the Great Recession 2008-2012, there were cuts to overtime, bonuses, etc., and lots of people lost their jobs.
> 
> However, cuts to basic pay were rare, mainly due to the fact that neither the employer nor the workers want it to happen.
> 
> The only sector where there were general cuts to basic pay was the public sector.


So the freeze on increments under Haddington Road was a pay cut but the payment of increments nowadays is not a pay rise? Or are you referring to those on 80k or more, who in fairness, took a temporary pay cut (which plenty of people in the private sector on those salaries also took).

I've never denied that the Public Sector took some pain, my issue is the failure of public sector unions and employees to acknowledge that an increment is a payrise.


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## Threadser (23 May 2022)

Purple said:


> I find the need amongst teachers in particular, and nurses to a slightly lesser extent, for continuous validation by strangers to be bizarre. I also find self-aggrandisement distasteful.




Our education system does remarkably well by international comparison considering how underfunded it is. I am teaching over 30 years and have yet to meet a teacher who looks for continuous validation from strangers. It would be nice not to be vilified so often by random strangers!

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release...what it is, on average, across OECD countries


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> Our education system does remarkably well by international comparison considering how underfunded it is. I am teaching over 30 years and have yet to meet a teacher who looks for continuous validation from strangers. It would be nice not to be vilified so often by random strangers!
> 
> https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/f6e114-major-international-study-finds-irelands-students-among-top-performe/#:~:text=PISA results show the difference in performance between,what it is, on average, across OECD countries


We do rank very well for literacy, as we do for inclusion amongst the economically disadvantaged. We are 21st and 24th on Maths and Science respectively. We spend 121.5% o total government expenditure on education, well ahead of the OECD and EU average. When adjusted for Purchasing Power our teachers are paid slightly above the OECD average. We have a pupil teacher ratio of 15.1 to 1, the OECD average is 15.0 to 1 so just about at the average. Irish teachers work more hours than the OECD average but have a much shorter working year (far more holidays).
We spend slightly less than the OECD average per child at both primary and secondary level and wages make up a larger proportion of that spend than the OECD average. 
It's without doubt that our third level is under funded relative to where it was pre-crash but it's still above the OECD average.
Good info here. 

I have never met a younger teacher who hasn't told me how hard they work, how difficult their job is, how all of their colleagues are exceptional and how badly paid they are. I agree that older teachers don't go on like that, and now that I think about it older Nurses don't either. Maybe it's a generational thing or maybe the older ones know they are better paid and have better pensions and own their own homes so keep their heads down and say nothin'.


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## Threadser (23 May 2022)

Purple said:


> We are 21st and 24th on Maths and Science respectively.


You forgot to qualify that we are 21st in Maths and 22nd in Science out of the 78 participating regions. Not a bad performance at all. Teaching is without doubt a difficult job but it has it's benefits of course. The amount of ill-informed comment and at times outright nastiness about the profession is difficult to deal with. This doesn't tend to come from parents who are directly dealing with teachers, particulaly at primary level, who I have always found to be supportive and appreciative

This graph shows that our total government expenditure on education as a % of GDP is amongst the lowest in the EU

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/stati...php?title=Government_expenditure_on_education


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> You forgot to qualify that we are 21st in Maths and 22nd in Science out of the 78 participating regions. Not a bad performance at all.


Yes, it's quite good but not "world class" as we often tell ourselves.


Threadser said:


> Teaching is without doubt a difficult job but it has it's benefits of course. The amount of ill-informed comment and at times outright nastiness about the profession is difficult to deal with.


Yep, and anyone who wants to can try to become a teacher so if it was that good there's be lots more of them. That said the pension and the holidays are a big plus.  


Threadser said:


> This doesn't tend to come from parents who are directly dealing with teachers, particulaly at primary level, who I have always found to be supportive and appreciative.


I have 3 children in the education system. My experience is that teachers are no better or worse than any other sector of society; some are great, most are good and some are awful. There's plenty of legitimate criticism of the sector and plenty of groundless criticism. The problem is that we've all been through the education system and we've all seen the good and the bad of it so we all have an opinion. I'm sure that can be hard to listen to at times.


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## Threadser (23 May 2022)

Purple said:


> The problem is that we've all been through the education system and we've all seen the good and the bad of it so we all have an an opinion


I definitely agree with this. The holidays are a big plus but no one could sustain the emotional and mental energy required for teaching without them. I have worked in other sectors with much less holidays but the intensity of the job was far less. The pension is certainly a big plus for those who entered service pre 95, but for those who entered from 2013 onwards it may just about be adequate.


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> I definitely agree with this. The holidays are a big plus but no one could sustain the emotional and mental energy required for teaching without them. I have worked in other sectors with much less holidays but the intensity of the job was far less. The pension is certainly a big plus for those who entered service pre 95, but for those who entered from 2013 onwards it may just about be adequate.


I think the biggest problem people have is the complete failure of teachers to admit that some of their colleagues are rubbish at the jobs. There's usually a "yes, there used to be bad teachers but now they are all great" type answer. As a parent I can say that's categorically not true. The other problem is that the superb ones that do the extracurricular activities and clearly love and excel at the jobs get paid exactly the same as the rubbish ones.


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## Threadser (23 May 2022)

Purple said:


> I think the biggest problem people have is the complete failure of teachers to admit that some of their colleagues are rubbish at the jobs.


Teachers are humans and like every other profession there will be good and bad. I think the " performance related pay"  you are advocating would be impossible to implement fairly. There are so many different contexts and variables that the common basic scale is, on balance. the best approach. Had I stayed working in the all girls school in an affluent area where I started my career I don't doubt my performance would have always been viewed as excellent. Instead I opted to work in an inner city DEIS boys school where keeping the children within the four walls on some days constitutes an achievement!


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## noproblem (23 May 2022)

Purple said:


> I think the biggest problem people have is the complete failure of teachers to admit that some of their colleagues are rubbish at the jobs. There's usually a "yes, there used to be bad teachers but now they are all great" type answer. As a parent I can say that's categorically not true. The other problem is that the superb ones that do the extracurricular activities and clearly love and excel at the jobs get paid exactly the same as the rubbish ones.


What do you want teachers to do? Arrange a press conference tomorrow and announce that there's some bad eggs in their profession, or what? I know of no job/profession where's there's 100% brilliant people, nothing too mind boggling in that. What's your obsession with teachers? Amazing too that your meeting up with all those teachers who tell you how great they are, etc. I'd have thought your social acquaintances might not have been from that profession. God only knows why I'd have thought that.


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## Deiseblue (23 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> So the freeze on increments under Haddington Road was a pay cut but the payment of increments nowadays is not a pay rise? Or are you referring to those on 80k or more, who in fairness, took a temporary pay cut (which plenty of people in the private sector on those salaries also took).
> 
> I've never denied that the Public Sector took some pain, my issue is the failure of public sector unions and employees to acknowledge that an increment is a payrise.


The Government as employers also don't treat increments as pay rises.
So the employers , employees and their representatives don't treat increments as pay rises - who are we to argue !!


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> Teachers are humans and like every other profession there will be good and bad.


Absolutely, but that's not what most teachers say, not in public anyway. 


Threadser said:


> I think the " performance related pay"  you are advocating would be impossible to implement fairly. There are so many different contexts and variables that the common basic scale is, on balance. the best approach.


I'm not advocating performance related pay. I agree that it would be impossible but it has to be a bit demoralising for those good teachers to see the clock-watchers just putting in the hours and nothing else. 


Threadser said:


> Had I stayed working in the all girls school in an affluent area where I started my career I don't doubt my performance would have always been viewed as excellent. Instead I opted to work in an inner city DEIS boys school where keeping the children within the four walls on some days constitutes an achievement!


Do teachers in DEIS schools get paid more? If not then they should; it's a much harder job.


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## noproblem (23 May 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> The Government as employers also don't treat increments as pay rises.
> So the employers , employees and their representatives don't treat increments as pay rises - who are we to argue !!


If it was teachers you were referring to, they might remark about your use of exclamation marks instead of question marks.


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## Purple (23 May 2022)

noproblem said:


> What do you want teachers to do? Arrange a press conference tomorrow and announce that there's some bad eggs in their profession, or what? I know of no job/profession where's there's 100% brilliant people, nothing too mind boggling in that.


That would be mind boggling alright. No, but dialling down the rhetoric about how superhuman they are, how hard they work and how difficult the job is would be nice. There's loads of harder and more stressful jobs out there (and I wouldn't do them either). 


noproblem said:


> What's your obsession with teachers?


This is a discussion, that's all. They do seem to be very thin skinned and don't take criticism well. Maybe if they said less about how great they are they'd hear less "feedback". 


noproblem said:


> Amazing too that your meeting up with all those teachers who tell you how great they are, etc. I'd have thought your social acquaintances might not have been from that profession.


I know people from all sorts of sectors and industries, teaching included. It's good to get other people's opinions; it broadens the mind. 


noproblem said:


> God only knows why I'd have thought that.


I hang around with the ones who are proper grown-ups and have a balanced view of the world and their place in it. If you think I'm critical of teachers you should hear me talk about my own sector and my own company. Nobody ever got better at their job by patting themselves on their back. Critical self examination is useful.


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## Threadser (23 May 2022)

Purple said:


> They do seem to be very thin skinned and don't take criticism well.


Why persist in making sweeping generalisations about a profession that has 65,000 members? Staff in DEIS schools don't get paid more and this is probably for the best as the last thing you would want would be teachers applying to work with disadvantaged kids for the "extra" money. I do it because it is challenging and because the kids are authentic, sometimes troubled and often entertaining.


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## rustbucket (23 May 2022)

Think this has veered off course a bit lads.


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## Purple (24 May 2022)

rustbucket said:


> Think this has veered off course a bit lads.


It has.


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## Peanuts20 (24 May 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> The Government as employers also don't treat increments as pay rises.
> So the employers , employees and their representatives don't treat increments as pay rises - who are we to argue !!


So you're saying the Government is right !!  

Not sure all the Taxpayers in the country agree with that view however.


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## Purple (25 May 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> The Government as employers also don't treat increments as pay rises.
> So the employers , employees and their representatives don't treat increments as pay rises - who are we to argue !!


The Unionised Civil Servants negotiating with the Union officials on pay rises they all get don’t call them pay rises. That’s hard to believe, isn’t it? 
The people who don’t get the pay rises but have to pay for them, they call them pay rises.


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## Deiseblue (25 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> So you're saying the Government is right !!
> 
> Not sure all the Taxpayers in the country agree with that view however.


Of course the Government  is right as are Unions and employees- increments are not pay rises as all partners involved in pay negotiations agree .
You'd swear that you feel that the Government are a Trade Union themselves.


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## Firefly (25 May 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> You'd swear that you feel that the Government are a Trade Union themselves.


It's hard to tell the difference sometimes


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## Purple (25 May 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> You'd swear that you feel that the Government are a Trade Union themselves.


No, but the Civil Servants who are the permanent government of the country are all in Unions and benefit from there “Emperor’s new clothes” type pay rises that aren’t pay rises but do the same thing as pay rises.


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## Peanuts20 (26 May 2022)

Deiseblue said:


> Of course the Government  is right as are Unions and employees- increments are not pay rises as all partners involved in pay negotiations agree .
> You'd swear that you feel that the Government are a Trade Union themselves.


So if I work in the private sector and my company says, we're not paying any payrises this year, but we're going to give you an increment instead and we all agree not to call it a payrise, it's not a payrise?? 

I feel like I'm in a lost episode of Yes Minister


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## november16 (28 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Fair point. The new structures introduced during Covid that were built from scratch were generally excellent. The problem is changing existing structures were Unionised intransigence and bad work practices are engrained. The State Sector is certainly not alone in that.


so biased its unbelievable


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## november16 (28 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> no, they are pay rises. Just because they are not called that does not mean they are not payrises. Do the staff impacted get paid more as a result?. Yes = Payrise


and the wage cut from 2008 called a pension levy was probably not a wage cut either?. Here we go with the basher ps experts who do not know what they are talking about, Never happy unless bashing, try living on a Clerical Officers salary or pension for that matter if you worked in private industry and ps.  the cats on here mostly in the 100,000 bracket who keep vilifying ordinary workers being paid peanuts after decades of work should try living on the clerical ps salary.


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## november16 (28 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> According to the CSO, over the seven years from Q42014 average hourly earnings in the public sector have risen by 14%, and the private sector by 21%.
> 
> Inflation was 7% over the same period. This left public sector workers with about a 7% real pay increase,* approximately half* the real pay increase experienced by the private sector of 13%.
> 
> A lot of ground has been lost by public sector workers over the period and I don't think there is an Irish journalist who has spotted this.


The myopic journalists conveniently bypass the cuts from 2008 the levy the paycuts the additional hours. Groundhog day I am back to 2008 salary in 2022 yipee and my eyes water when I see the salaries of people on here who are bashing the massive salaries of e.g. clerical staff who can hope to work for maybe 19,000  and it will take them 20 years to get to 41,000. but thats probably too much for private industry to pay and next its the pensions are too much, with the Additional Superannuation and pension levy civil/public etc paid 14% extra since 2009 and in many instance were not entitled to pensions and still had to pay the pension levy.


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## Purple (29 May 2022)

november16 said:


> The myopic journalists conveniently bypass the cuts from 2008 the levy the paycuts the additional hours. Groundhog day I am back to 2008 salary in 2022 yipee


There were large pay increases for State employees in the years leading up to 2008. That should be noted for context.


november16 said:


> and my eyes water when I see the salaries of people on here who are bashing the massive salaries of e.g. clerical staff who can hope to work for maybe 19,000  and it will take them 20 years to get to 41,000. but thats probably too much for private industry to pay and next its the pensions are too much, with the Additional Superannuation and pension levy civil/public etc paid 14% extra since 2009 and in many instance were not entitled to pensions and still had to pay the pension levy.


State employees on €19k aren’t paying a 14% pension levy. Those on higher salaries are and I agree that those people are under paid for the work they do but clerical level employees aren’t. Not by international standards or benchmarked against their counterparts in the non State sector.

Do people really work for 20 years without getting a promotion? Where I work there are no increments so if you are hired on minimum wage then that’s where you stay unless you get better at your job. Then you’ll get a pay rise but if it’s the same job then you’ll never really see big pay increases. 
€41k plus a state pension is above the average industrial wage. If you are doing the same job why would you expect a pay increase?


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## Purple (29 May 2022)

november16 said:


> so biased its unbelievable


Do you not think they did a good job building new structures during Covid?  I think they did a great job.

From your reaction to my previous post you seem to think that teachers pay should be increased until they can afford a house. Do you not see the knock on effect doubling or tripling teachers pay would have? 
Do you think that would be fiscally responsible?


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## Threadser (29 May 2022)

Purple said:


> . Do you not see the knock on effect doubling or tripling teachers pay would have?
> Do you think that would be fiscally responsible?


I don't think anyone sensible would advocate this. Making housing more affordable for essential key workers would be a better approach. We are loosing 5 teachers this year from a total of 14. They are all leaving the city because of unaffordable housing.


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## Purple (29 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> I don't think anyone sensible would advocate this. Making housing more affordable for essential key workers would be a better approach. We are loosing 5 teachers this year from a total of 14. They are all leaving the city because of unaffordable housing.


That’s happening in every sector. If we are going to help people working in essential sectors then we will of course we’ll have to start with sewage workers, bin men (or are they bin people now?), supermarket employees, delivery drivers and all the people who are much more essential than teachers or nurses or doctors or people like me.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (29 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> Making housing more affordable for essential key workers would be a better approach.


I think there is merit in this.

Housing costs in Dublin are materially and sustainably higher than the rest of the country.

There should be some recognition of this - particularly for high-skilled roles.


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## Purple (30 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I think there is merit in this.
> 
> Housing costs in Dublin are materially and sustainably higher than the rest of the country.
> 
> There should be some recognition of this - particularly for high-skilled roles.


In the UK there's a London allowance for many State employees working in London. It's reasonable that something similar could be brought in here. It's nonsense to suggest that anyone's wages should be increased until they can afford to buy a house. That's a recipe for 1970's style inflation and a 1980's style recession.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (30 May 2022)

Purple said:


> It's reasonable that something similar could be brought in here.


and


Purple said:


> it's nonsense to suggest that anyone's wages should be increased until they can afford to buy a house.




But the main cost of living difference inside and outside Dublin *is* housing.


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## Purple (30 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> and
> 
> 
> 
> But the main cost of living difference inside and outside Dublin *is* housing.


Yes I agree with you. I was pointing out that increasing a teachers salary to €90k so that they can afford a house in Dublin is a really stupid idea as it will have a massive knock-on effect on wages across the economy and result in double digit inflation. It will also not make housing more affordable as prices will just increase in line with those pay increases. It's a really stupid idea. 
It's also true that essential workers (bin men, water treatment plant employees etc) were never on high wages. The other essential group, the people that maintain the electricity network, are relatively well paid. The next most important group, the "blue light" services, are also relatively well paid.


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## Threadser (30 May 2022)

Purple said:


> all the people who are much more essential than teachers or nurses or doctors or people like me.


I am not sure any society would function for very long without nurses, doctors or teachers! I agree that the other categories of workers you mentioned (bin workers, supermarket staff etc) are also essential but they are more likely to already qualify for state housing support by because of their low wage.


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## Purple (30 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> I am not sure any society would function for very long without nurses, doctors or teachers!


Of course it wouldn't. We'd struggle more without Farmers and Truck Drivers though. We'd also find it hard to manage if we flushed the toilet and nothing happened. That would cause more of a problem than the absence of doctors or nurses. 
Teachers wouldn't be missed for months. Lawyers wouldn't be missed for years. Bankers would be missed though since we need money to function. 

Most jobs can be done without but they are good to have around. We know that we can manage without restaurants, pubs or musicians but they do make life better. 

If we talking about "essential workers" as people who are needed in the short term to keep society functioning then the people who keep the lights on and the water running come first, closely followed by the people who keep food on the shelves of the shops. The rest of us are a distant second.


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## Threadser (30 May 2022)

But a short term view isn't helpful. Housing is a long term need and we need health and education staff in our cities if society is to function. Cities like London have already identified key workers so I am sure we could follow their template for workers who have to be in cities and are in need of affordable housing options. Many other jobs can be done remotely but this isn't an option for frontline workers.


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## Itchy (30 May 2022)

Any info on the disparity between London and the rest of the UK that justifies a London allowance, and what is the relative difference to the Dublin rest Ireland, disparity? I would _think _its not as severe in Ireland?


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## Peanuts20 (30 May 2022)

november16 said:


> and the wage cut from 2008 called a pension levy was probably not a wage cut either?. Here we go with the basher ps experts who do not know what they are talking about, Never happy unless bashing, try living on a Clerical Officers salary or pension for that matter if you worked in private industry and ps.  the cats on here mostly in the 100,000 bracket who keep vilifying ordinary workers being paid peanuts after decades of work should try living on the clerical ps salary.


I'm not bashing the public sector . All I'm asking for is openess, honesty and transparency around public sector pay rises and not the use of semantics. Plenty of public sector workers deserve to be paid more, I've never said they didn't

As for living on a Clerical workers wage, try doing a minimum wage job for a while where you can be sacked or laid off (as many were during Covid)) as opposed to having a job for life. I'm sure most of the cleaners, shop workers, warehouse operatives etc would love a Clerical Workers job and salary


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## Peanuts20 (30 May 2022)

Itchy said:


> Any info on the disparity between London and the rest of the UK that justifies a London allowance, and what is the relative difference to the Dublin rest Ireland, disparity? I would _think _its not as severe in Ireland?


when I lived in London and worked for one of the banks there, we had a big city allowance policy where depending on where you worked, a fixed, non-pensionable payment was added to your wage. In London, it was around 15% of the average staff salary whereas when I worked in Manchester for a year, it was around 5%. It got reviewed and updated annually and almost every city in the UK was covered to some degree. 

There would be merit in such a scheme here as the cost of living in the GDA would be far higher then in e.g Leitrim.


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## Purple (30 May 2022)

Threadser said:


> But a short term view isn't helpful. Housing is a long term need and we need health and education staff in our cities if society is to function. Cities like London have already identified key workers so I am sure we could follow their template for workers who have to be in cities and are in need of affordable housing options. Many other jobs can be done remotely but this isn't an option for frontline workers.


No different from lots of other people that are necessary for a city to function. The whole "essential worker" thing is a bit cringey. It's not as bad as people who refer to themselves as Frontline Workers but it's up there.

The people who keep the power and water flowing and keep food on the shelves are the most essential. I suppose refuse collection would come next.
People in combat with nobody in front of them except enemy soldiers who are trying to kill them are on the front line. Every other use of the term is just hyperbole.

 With public transport and roads and cars and such like there's no need for anyone working in the city to actually live in the city.


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## november16 (7 Jun 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> I'm not bashing the public sector . All I'm asking for is openness, honesty and transparency around public sector pay rises and not the use of semantics. Plenty of public sector workers deserve to be paid more, I've never said they didn't
> 
> As for living on a Clerical workers wage, try doing a minimum wage job for a while where you can be sacked or laid off (as many were during Covid)) as opposed to having a job for life. I'm sure most of the cleaners, shop workers, warehouse operatives etc would love a Clerical Workers job and salary


I have worked in poorly paid jobs and I don't have a job for life, that's an outmoded belief.  As it happens and I can be let go from my job. You seem to have a bias and it comes across as a bitterness and it  it's pretty blatant at this stage. Why are you so fascinated by P.S. Why not go after the high earners in PS/CS . Many of my self employed friends and family seem to feel hard done by by comparison to public servants. On the outside people think its a golden pension and sitting with your feet up - that's only for the upper echelons.  C.S P.S language is based on British Civil Service going back to the 1900's. 

Yes much of it the language around pay is semantics I have to agree with you there, For Example Pension Related Deduction - which is a substantial levy a deduction which does not go towards a pension. 
I have spent years trying to decipher their language and then they change it or update another circular i.e. secondment  and nobody can decipher what the circular is saying. I probably wont ever understand it.  I have worked in private sector, supermarkets, book shops, any job I could get, poorly paid manufacturing jobs.  I worked two jobs for years when I was in UK C.S. as the wages were so low.


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## PebbleBeach2020 (7 Jun 2022)

The upper levels of the civil service are underpaid compared to private sector employees if similar qualifications and experience and responsibilities. 

The lower grades are actually overpaid compared to private sector equivalents. But they keep increase lower grades at a higher percentage than higher grades for political and voting reasons.


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## Cavanbhoy (7 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> I don't think anyone sensible would advocate this. Making housing more affordable for essential key workers would be a better approach. We are loosing 5 teachers this year from a total of 14. They are all leaving the city because of unaffordable housing.


The 5 that are leaving are they staying in the profession and moving to other locations.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

november16 said:


> I have worked in poorly paid jobs and I don't have a job for life, that's an outmoded belief.  As it happens and I can be let go from my job. You seem to have a bias and it comes across as a bitterness and it  it's pretty blatant at this stage. Why are you so fascinated by P.S.
> Why not go after the high earners in PS/CS . Many of my self employed friends and family seem to feel hard done by by comparison to public servants. On the outside people think its a golden pension and sitting with your feet up - that's only for the upper echelons.  C.S P.S language is based on British Civil Service going back to the 1900's.


I suppose it's the frustration with the inefficient delivery of services, the lack of accountability, the waste and the fact that the PS/CS unions are in the media all the time moaning and complaining and deflecting and lying and occasionally threatening the country with strikes. 


november16 said:


> Yes much of it the language around pay is semantics I have to agree with you there, For Example Pension Related Deduction - which is a substantial levy a deduction which does not go towards a pension.


 A smaller cut in pay that caused a corresponding reduction in pensions for the real gold plated pre-95 State sector pensioners would have been much fairer. That said even still State employees don't pay enough to come anywhere close enough to funding their pension. That should be seen in the context that as a cohort  private sector employees don't pay enough to fund their State pension either.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Cavanbhoy said:


> The 5 that are leaving are they staying in the profession and moving to other locations.


Yes. Three are moving to rural areas and two are going to the UAE to save towards a deposit for a house.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> That said even still State employees don't pay enough to come anywhere close enough to funding their pension.


State employees pay more towards the portion of their pension that comprises the state pension than other workers do. For lower paid CS/PS the state pension element is often approx 50% of their pension. (assuming an annual pension of €26,000 which for those on the career average single scheme would require long service for a mid ranking CS worker.)  Those outside the CS/PS pay PRSI contributions alone to "fund" their state pension. This is completely inadequate which you have acknowledged.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> State employees pay more towards the portion of their pension that comprises the state pension than other workers do. For lower paid CS/PS the state pension element is often approx 50% of their pension. (assuming an annual pension of €26,000 which for those on the career average single scheme would require long service for a mid ranking CS worker.)


Are you saying that they pay enough to fund 50% of their State pension?


Threadser said:


> Those outside the CS/PS pay PRSI contributions alone to "fund" their state pension. This is completely inadequate which you have acknowledged.


I agree. The average private sector employee comes nowhere close to funding their State pension, especially considering the other things PRSI funds.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> Are you saying that they pay enough to fund 50% of their State pension?


They are paying 6.5% of their salary plus A rate PRSI towards that element of their pension. Whether they are paying enough depends on how long they live, whether they are single/married etc .There is cohort who will pay more into their pension than they will ever be allowed to claim. If you are single, you cannot nominate anyone to claim your pension in the event of your death apart from your lump sum entitlement which goes to your estate. A single PS/CS worker who dies within a couple of years of retirement will have paid substantially more than they will ever claim.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> The average private sector employee comes nowhere close to funding their State pension, especially considering the other things PRSI funds.


Totally agree with this. I have a friend who works in the private sector as an accountant. She was made redundant after 12 years working in a US multinational. The redundancy she received was in excess of my expected pension lump sum although admittedly only a portion of it was funded by the state. She was re-employed in a matter of months and will be entitled to the full contributory state pension. That's what I call "bang for your PRSI contributions"!


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> They are paying 6.5% of their salary plus A rate PRSI towards that element of their pension. Whether they are paying enough depends on how long they live, whether they are single/married etc .There is cohort who will pay more into their pension than they will ever be allowed to claim. If you are single, you cannot nominate anyone to claim your pension in the event of your death apart from your lump sum entitlement which goes to your estate.
> A single PS/CS worker who dies within a couple of years of retirement will have paid substantially more than they will ever claim.


That's the case with any pension but the average actuarial cost of the pension is much higher than the contributions that are made.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> hat's the case with any pension but the average actuarial cost of the pension is much higher than the contributions that are made.


Yes, but if I contribute to a private pension as a single person my contributions are not lost on my death?


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Totally agree with this. I have a friend who works in the private sector as an accountant. She was made redundant after 12 years working in a US multinational. The redundancy she received was in excess of my expected pension lump sum although admittedly only a portion of it was funded by the state. She was re-employed in a matter of months and will be entitled to the full contributory state pension. That's what I call "bang for your PRSI contributions"!


The employer funds the full cost of redundancy payments unless  they can show that they are unable to do so due to bankruptcy/ insolvency etc. The employer gets absolutely nothing back for the 8.8% to 10.5% PRSI contribution that they pay.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Yes, but if I contribute to a private pension as a single person my contributions are not lost on my death?


Your Fund value will be paid to your estate but if you are retired your pension dies with you. If you have a spouse and you want them to retain your pension you have to purchase a joint life annuity but that's expensive so will result in a smaller pension. If you so not have a spouse your pension dies with you. In the State sector there is usually a Death in Service benefit which is very valuable.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> Your Fund value will be paid to your estate


Yes, but this is a significant difference between a public and private sector pension for a single persion. There is no fund for PS workers but their contributions over up to 40 years will not be accounted for apart from their lump sum upon their death. Agree "Death in service" is valuable for your family if you are unfortunate enough to die before retirement!


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> The employer funds the full cost of redundancy payments unless they can show that they are unable to do so due to bankruptcy/ insolvency etc


I am no expert on redudancy payments but I have heard of companies matching the state contribution? Perhaps I am mistaken? Apologies I have again taken the thread off topic!


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Yes, but this is a significant difference between a public and private sector pension for a single persion. There is no fund for PS workers but their contributions over up to 40 years will not be accounted for apart from their lump sum upon their death.


But the value of their pension far exceeds the contributions they will have made during those 40 years. If you were funding your own pension of €30k you'd have to be contributing around €1500 a month for 40 years. 


Threadser said:


> Agree "Death in service" is valuable for your family if you are unfortunate enough to die before retirement!


It certainly is.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> I am no expert on redudancy payments but I have heard of companies matching the state contribution? Perhaps I am mistaken? Apologies I have again taken the thread off topic!


The State pays nothing unless the employer has gone bust.


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## PebbleBeach2020 (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> If you are single, you cannot nominate anyone to claim your pension in the event of your death apart from your lump sum entitlement which goes to your estate.


Would they not consider marrying someone about 40 years younger than them so they could benefit. A purely financial arrangement I mean.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> ut the value of their pension far exceeds the contributions they will have made during those 40 years. If you were funding your own pension of €30k you'd have to be contributing around €1500 a month for 40 years.


Again you are forgetting to subtract the contributory pension. How much would it cost to fund €17,000?


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Young teachers I work with, within the single scheme (all PS workers since 2013) have been told that their teachers pension will be about €12,500 pa approx plus the contributory state pension at 67? This will be index linked which is a big benefit of course. Obviously calculations vary depending on age and length of service but all told by Cornmarket that they will need to take out AVCs in order to have a decent standard of living in retirement! The "gold plated" pension is long gone for this cohort of workers but the misleading narrative continues.


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## Itchy (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> But the value of their pension far exceeds the contributions they will have made during those 40 years. If you were funding your own pension of €30k you'd have to be contributing around €1500 a month for 40 years.



I would have thought employer pension contributions are fairly common for someone on a >€60k.


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## Itchy (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> No, I've a high regard for the Irish Civil Service. I think they do a good job, are significantly under staffed and *at the higher levels significantly under paid*.



So at the lower levels, there is a high value pension which results in the sector being overpaid. But the higher levels are underpaid with the same high value pension. I wonder what grade/level in the Public Sector is breakeven/equivalence with the Private Sector?



Purple said:


> But the value of their pension far exceeds the contributions they will have made during those 40 years


Which is also the same for any employee that benefits from an employer contribution to their pension.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Again you are forgetting to subtract the contributory pension.


No, that's not paid for by most people, public or private. 


Threadser said:


> How much would it cost to fund €17,000?


€720 a month.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Itchy said:


> I would have thought employer pension contributions are fairly common for someone on a >€60k.


Not in the SME sector, which is where most people work.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Itchy said:


> So at the lower levels, there is a high value pension which results in the sector being overpaid. But the higher levels are underpaid with the same high value pension. I wonder what grade/level in the Public Sector is breakeven/equivalence with the Private Sector?


By international standards our senior Public Servants are under paid and our lower level public servants are over paid. Most lower level roles in the public sector, such as data entry and administrative positions,  would be classified as semi-skilled in the private sector. The combined pay and pension value should be calculated at an hourly rate basis for comparison. Things like paid sick leave, longer holidays, a shorter working week, flexitime, job security and guaranteed pay increases in the form of Increments should be factored in as well.   




Itchy said:


> Which is also the same for any employee that benefits from an employer contribution to their pension.


Yes, and that is part of the overall remuneration package. If I get €80k a year and my employer puts an additional €10k into my pension then I'm actually getting paid €90k a year.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Young teachers I work with, within the single scheme (all PS workers since 2013) have been told that their teachers pension will be about €12,500 pa approx plus the contributory state pension at 67? This will be index linked which is a big benefit of course. Obviously calculations vary depending on age and length of service but all told by Cornmarket that they will need to take out AVCs in order to have a decent standard of living in retirement! The "gold plated" pension is long gone for this cohort of workers but the misleading narrative continues.


Absolutely, which is why a pay cut which also reduced the pension of retired teachers would have been much fairer than the pension levy. 
That said a pension of €30k a year isn't bad. Remember that they'll get a tax free €90k lump sum as well. If you've no mortgage and no dependents €600 a week isn't bad, especially if your partner has a pension as well.


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## Protocol (8 Jun 2022)

@Purple,
there was a cut to PS pensions in payment.
It was called the PSPR.
Like the PS pay cuts, the PSPR was mostly restored during 2016-2018.


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## Groucho (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Young teachers I work with, within the single scheme (all PS workers since 2013) have been told that their teachers pension will be about €12,500 pa approx plus the contributory state pension at 67? This will be index linked which is a big benefit of course. Obviously calculations vary depending on age and length of service but all told by Cornmarket that they will need to take out AVCs in order to have a decent standard of living in retirement! The "gold plated" pension is long gone for this cohort of workers but the misleading narrative continues.



No reference to the tax-free lump sum of 1.5 times annual salary, of course!     And would you (or they) regard Cornmarket as a disinterested adviser in such matters?


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> €720 a month.


I have just looked up a recent salary cheque and worked out my pension contributions. Total per fortnight is €311 including pension contribution, 1.5 % spouses and children's levy and additional superannuation contribution. Working this out assuming a 31 day month my pension contribution per month is €689.35. Not that far off the figure you suggest.


Groucho said:


> No reference to the tax-free lump sum of 1.5 times annual salary, of course! And would you (or they) regard Cornmarket as a disinterested adviser in such matters?


I was referring to the annual pension. The 1 1/2times tax free lump sum is of course a benefit which will accrue to those to manage 40 years service. The average length of service of a UK teacher is now 13 years so I can't see many lasting the pace here to collect the full amount. I agree totally about Cornmarket not being a "disinterested advisor" however the entitlement of those on the single service career average pension scheme is quite low when you exclude the state pension to which most would be entitled on the basis of PRSI contributions alone.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> I have just looked up a recent salary cheque and worked out my pension contributions. Total per fortnight is €311 including pension contribution, 1.5 % spouses and children's levy and additional superannuation contribution. Working this out assuming a 31 day month my pension contribution per month is €689.35. Not that far off the figure you suggest.


The 1.5% spouse and Children's Levy should be deducted and do remember that you're not paying enough to fund your standard contributory PRSI old age pension either and neither are most private sector employees.

There's 4.2 weeks in a month so multiply your fortnightly contribution by 2.1 and you get €653.10. I presume you're not including your PRSI contribution in that. 



Threadser said:


> I was referring to the annual pension. The 1 1/2times tax free lump sum is of course a benefit which will accrue to those to manage 40 years service. The average length of service of a UK teacher is now 13 years so I can't see many lasting the pace here to collect the full amount.


Nobody who works for 13 years will fund their personal pension. If people choose to move to different jobs that's their own business.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> The 1.5% spouse and Children's Levy should be deducted


It is compulsory (even for those without a spouse or a child!) so shouldn't be deducted.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> Nobody who works for 13 years will fund their personal pension.


I didn't suggest this. I was referring to the fact that you have to provide 40 years service to the state to get the benefit of a lump sum one and half times your salary.


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## Threadser (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> There's 4.2 weeks in a month so multiply your fortnightly contribution by 2.1 and you get €653.10. I presume you're not including your PRSI contribution in that.


Even the reduced amount is a lot more than most commentators think public servants pay although I am at the top of my pay scale. I am not including my PRSI contributions. Those on the single scheme pay less ASC as their pension entitlement is much reduced.


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## Sunnysoutheast (8 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Young teachers I work with, within the single scheme (all PS workers since 2013) have been told that their teachers pension will be about €12,500 pa approx plus the contributory state pension at 67? This will be index linked which is a big benefit of course. Obviously calculations vary depending on age and length of service but all told by Cornmarket that they will need to take out AVCs in order to have a decent standard of living in retirement! The "gold plated" pension is long gone for this cohort of workers but the misleading narrative continues.


Just wondering how much will teachers pre-2013 but post 1995 get per annum for their pension?


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## Itchy (8 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> Not in the SME sector, which is where most people work.



Any source for that? Find that hard to believe. 

The CSO indicates 66% of workers have pension coverage. Of those who did not, 45% "never got around to it", a further 3.2% felt that other sources offer a better return for investment. So close to 50% of those people (assuming they are all private sector) choose not to engage with pension benefits.


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## Itchy (8 Jun 2022)

Sunnysoutheast said:


> Just wondering how much will teachers pre-2013 but post 1995 get per annum for their pension?



Google is your friend









						Comparison Table of Teachers' Pension schemes
					






					www.asti.ie


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## Protocol (8 Jun 2022)

Sunnysoutheast said:


> Just wondering how much will teachers pre-2013 but post 1995 get per annum for their pension?



Pre 1995: pension = (years service)(1/80) = 50% of final salary

Post 1995, but not in Single PS scheme: pension is in theory the same, but made up of PRSI State Pension + lower work pension = 50% of final salary


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## Purple (9 Jun 2022)

Itchy said:


> Any source for that? Find that hard to believe.
> 
> The CSO indicates 66% of workers have pension coverage. Of those who did not, 45% "never got around to it", a further 3.2% felt that other sources offer a better return for investment. So close to 50% of those people (assuming they are all private sector) choose not to engage with pension benefits.


That includes State employees.
61.7% of that 66% has defined benefit pensions so they were in the State Sector or were part of the small contingent in areas such as Banking or in the so-called "commercial" semi-State sector who still enjoyed those pensions. Every employer of a reasonable size is obliged to provide a pension scheme but they are certainly not obliged to top it up. That's the point I was making. If you have a source to show that most companies in the SME sector top up the pensions of their employees then I'll certainly stand corrected.


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## Purple (9 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> I didn't suggest this. I was referring to the fact that you have to provide 40 years service to the state to get the benefit of a lump sum one and half times your salary.


Sure, that's always been the case. You hardly expect people to have to work for less than 40 years do you?


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## Itchy (9 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> By international standards our senior Public Servants are under paid and our lower level public servants are over paid. Most lower level roles in the public sector, such as data entry and administrative positions,  would be classified as semi-skilled in the private sector. *The combined pay and pension value should be calculated at an hourly rate basis for comparison. Things like paid sick leave, longer holidays, a shorter working week, flexitime, job security and guaranteed pay increases in the form of Increments should be factored in as well.  *
> 
> Yes, and that is part of the overall remuneration package. If I get €80k a year and my employer puts an additional €10k into my pension then I'm actually getting paid €90k a year.



Which is why I note the lack of meaningful comparisons in the thread. I find the standard 'public v. private sector' comparisons disingenuous. It makes no sense given the diversity of roles/skills, non-commercial approach and size to compare to the private sector dominated by SME's whose activities (broadly) bear no similarity to the State sector at all?

A more meaningful comparison, for example, might be the staff in the Attorney Generals Office compared to one of the major law firms/consultancies (pay per hour might be skewed there!) or auditors in C&AG's office vs. industry, trades people etc. Averaging across the entire sector in meaningless. Grand for employment policies etc., but working conditions?



Purple said:


> That includes State employees.
> 61.7% of that 66% has defined benefit pensions so they were in the State Sector or were part of the small contingent in areas such as Banking or in the so-called "commercial" semi-State sector who still enjoyed those pensions.



What the CSO shows, assuming those who don't have a pension are in the private sector, 50% have no interest in a pension, so have no opportunity to avail of an employer contribution even if it was available.



Purple said:


> Every employer of a reasonable size is obliged to provide a pension scheme but they are certainly not obliged to top it up. That's the point I was making. *If you have a source to show that most companies in the SME sector top up the pensions of their employees then I'll certainly stand corrected.*



It was your claim, that they don't top up  I don't have a source to substantiate my suggestion that employers pay some sort of pension contribution at higher levels of salary e.g. >€60k.  Agreed that the CSO does not show if an employer contribution was made or not.

What we can glean from the CSO is that increasing age is correlated with increased salary is correlated with increasing pension coverage. I find it very hard to believe, that large organisations akin to parts of the state sector, do not pay pension contributions.


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## Purple (9 Jun 2022)

Itchy said:


> Which is why I note the lack of meaningful comparisons in the thread. I find the standard 'public v. private sector' comparisons disingenuous. It makes no sense given the diversity of roles/skills, non-commercial approach and size to compare to the private sector dominated by SME's whose activities (broadly) bear no similarity to the State sector at all?


I agree. I've noted a number of times that the State's liability for standard contributory pensions is just as big, or maybe bigger, an issue as the pensions of those it employs. This is especially the case since the extra pension contributions were introduced after the financial crash.


Itchy said:


> A more meaningful comparison, for example, might be the staff in the Attorney Generals Office compared to one of the major law firms/consultancies (pay per hour might be skewed there!) or auditors in C&AG's office vs. industry, trades people etc. Averaging across the entire sector in meaningless. Grand for employment policies etc., but working conditions?


Again I agree. The figures suggest that Public Servants are significantly under paid at the top end and overpaid at the bottom end.


Itchy said:


> What the CSO shows, assuming those who don't have a pension are in the private sector, 50% have no interest in a pension, so have no opportunity to avail of an employer contribution even if it was available.


Saying that they have "no interest" is a bit disingenuous.


Itchy said:


> It was your claim, that they don't top up  I don't have a source to substantiate my suggestion that employers pay some sort of pension contribution at higher levels of salary e.g. >€60k.  Agreed that the CSO does not show if an employer contribution was made or not.


Okay, so you have an unsubstantiated opinion and so do I. In the absence of pints maybe we should leave it there.


Itchy said:


> What we can glean from the CSO is that increasing age is correlated with increased salary is correlated with increasing pension coverage. I find it very hard to believe, that large organisations akin to parts of the state sector, do not pay pension contributions.


I agree but I didn't say that. I said that in the SME sector where most of the private sector works it would be unusual for pensions to be topped up. I also didn't mention salary, or pay since most people aren't paid a salary. A hair dressers salon isn't going to top-up pensions. A small factory or warehouse isn't going to top up pensions. A café isn't going to top up pensions. Those are the sort of places most people work.


On the broader issue or the wage expectations of lower level unskilled or semi-skilled Public Sector employees performing clerical and administrative work; they should be at the same level as a receptionist in the factory or a warehouse employee who handles shipping documents. They should be significantly below a tradesperson, someone who has decision making responsibilities or people who do hard manual or dangerous work. Comparisons should be made based on hourly rates and those rates should include the value of pension entitlements. 


The level of educational attainment that the person has is irrelevant unless it relates directly to the job they have. A clerical officer with a Masters in Classical Studies should be paid the same as a clerical officer of equal skill and competence with a Junior Cert.


It's ridiculous that a teacher should expect to be paid the same as a Bricklayer.
It's even more ridiculous that someone in a semi-skilled State Sector office job with excellent holidays, paid sick leave, short hours and generally excellent T's & C's should expect to be paid the same as a Bricklayer.


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## Threadser (9 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> Saying that they have "no interest" is a bit disingenuous.


Perhaps it would be better to say "cannot afford" to put money away for pensions for those in precarious lower paid employed in the private sector. However there is a cohort of workers who simply don't bother putting money away for their pensions and expect the state to provide. They are generally the same people who will moan about the "gold-plated" pensions of state workers. Public and civil servants have no choice but to contribute towards their pension from day 1 of their employment regardless of their income level. The proposed "auto-enrolment" scheme for all workers needs to be fast tracked to ensure pension coverage for the majority of the population in the decades ahead.


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## Itchy (9 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Perhaps it would be better to say "cannot afford" to put money away for pensions for those in precarious lower paid employed in the private sector.



No, "45.2% stated that they never got around to organising it" and another 40% of workers without a pension said they can't afford it. 

"2.8% of those without pension cover saying that _other sources including the State pension, savings, etc. _would be adequate".


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## Purple (9 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Perhaps it would be better to say "cannot afford" to put money away for pensions for those in precarious lower paid employed in the private sector. However there is a cohort of workers who simply don't bother putting money away for their pensions and expect the state to provide. They are generally the same people who will moan about the "gold-plated" pensions of state workers. Public and civil servants have no choice but to contribute towards their pension from day 1 of their employment regardless of their income level. The proposed "auto-enrolment" scheme for all workers needs to be fast tracked to ensure pension coverage for the majority of the population in the decades ahead.


I agree, though the auto-enrolment pension system is rubbish for anyone earning the average industrial wage or has an expectation of earning above the marginal tax rate in the future. 
The Gold Plating on State employee's pensions is a lot thinner than it used to be. In any discussion about pay the total package on offer, including pensions and T's and C's need to be discussed openly. When teachers and Gardaí quote the basic wage of new entrants instead of their full pay and their pension value they lose credibility. I'm not saying that they are under or over paid, I'm saying that honesty is a good starting point.


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## Itchy (9 Jun 2022)

The SPC is c. €13k a year. What pension does a PS employee, with 40Y service, full class A PRSI, retiring on a salary of €26k p.a. earn? (ignoring lump sum for a moment).


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## Firefly (9 Jun 2022)

Itchy said:


> The SPC is c. €13k a year. What pension does a PS employee, with 40Y service, full class A PRSI, retiring on a salary of €26k p.a. earn? (ignoring lump sum for a moment).



In such a scenario, what would the total pension contributions have been - assume the employee was on €26k p.a for the 40 years?


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## Groucho (9 Jun 2022)

Itchy said:


> The SPC is c. €13k a year. What pension does a PS employee, with 40Y service, full class A PRSI, retiring on a salary of €26k p.a. earn? (ignoring lump sum for a moment).



Deleted - calculation is far more complicated than I had imagined!


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## Itchy (9 Jun 2022)

Groucho said:


> I think it's:  40/200ths of their final salary (in the case above that would be €5,200) plus the SPC of €13k.



Fairly sure the absolute max can be 50% of final salary. For example, if you work more than 40Y, you will continue to make the contributions but get no increase in benefits. 



Firefly said:


> In such a scenario, what would the total pension contributions have been - assume the employee was on €26k p.a for the 40 years?



No idea. I presume it is the normal percentages i.e. 1.5% S&C, Lump Sum and 3% Pension. I think the absolute max you can get is 50% of final salary including SPC. I can't see the amazing pension benefits for low paid PS workers?


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## Threadser (9 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> When teachers and Gardaí quote the basic wage of new entrants instead of their full pay and their pension value they lose credibility.


The basic starting wage of teachers is their full pay. The current starting wage is €38100. Allowances are all included now in the pay scale. The only extra allowance could be for a management post but that is unlikely for early career teachers. Pension is based on career average earnings not final salary so it is not a huge perk. Holidays are obviously generous but no one would stay in the career without them.


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## Threadser (9 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> The average pensionable salary in the Public Sector in 2017 was €47,056.


The average pension in the public sector is also remarkably low. I don't have the data but I remember seeing a figure of well less than €30,000. Of course averages are notoriously misleading in that the encompass the pensions of those on very high salaries who may have full service and those in the lower echelons who may have only worked for a few years.


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## Peanuts20 (9 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> or perhaps you could be someone with a learning disability who is capable of performing basic admin tasks but for whom promotion wouldn't be an option?


There are exceptions to every rule but I would have little sympathy for someone who has the ability to upskill and get a better paying job and not taken the opportunity to do so. Salary should be about the value someone brings to an organisation and it's customers and clients. I'd have no issue if competent nurses in a hospital got a 20% payrise for example, but I'd have an issue if a paper stamper was screaming "parity" and got the same as a result.


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## Threadser (9 Jun 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> There are exceptions to every rule but I would have little sympathy for someone who has the ability to upskill and get a better paying job and not taken the opportunity to do so. Salary should be about the value someone brings to an organisation and it's customers and clients. I'd have no issue if competent nurses in a hospital got a 20% payrise for example, but I'd have an issue if a paper stamper was screaming "parity" and got the same as a result.


This sounds perfectly reasonable in theory but in practise would be much more difficult to implement. Do you reward the teacher working in a challenging school whose class results may be poor or the one who works in an affluent areas whose class have excellent test scores? Which one is more "competent" and how to you assess that?


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## Groucho (9 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> Holidays are obviously generous but no one would stay in the career without them.



Back in the day, my missus used to correct the State Examinations every summer to supplement her meagre teaching salary and to help pass the time!   However nowadays the SEC can't recruit enough correctors which suggests that teachers are either too __________   (lazy/well-paid/knackered)  - insert word according to choice - to bother!    (the missus won't do it any more because they've moved her subject online and she didn't fancy having to look at a computer screen for 10 hours a day! )


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## Threadser (9 Jun 2022)

Groucho said:


> However nowadays the SEC can't recruit enough correctors which suggests that teachers are either too __________ (lazy/well-paid/knackered) - insert word according to choice - to bother! (the missus won't do it any more because they've moved her subject online and she didn't fancy having to look at a computer screen for 10 hours a day! )


I think the pay is pretty terrible for this and many teachers won't be bothered. The continuous teacher bashing in the media during the pandemic has eroded much of the goodwill that might have been there.


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## Groucho (9 Jun 2022)

Threadser said:


> I think the pay is pretty terrible for this and many teachers won't be bothered. The continuous teacher bashing in the media during the pandemic has eroded much of the goodwill that might have been there.



I can't remember the SEC bashing the teachers during the pandemic, but the precious little bunnies probably didn't realise that!   
I agree that the level of pay was poor enough in the past, so for most examiners the profit was in the travel and sub and the conference expenses.   But the SEC has been at pains to advertise that the rates have increased significantly this year.


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## Threadser (9 Jun 2022)

The SEC didn't bash teachers but obviously haven't paid enough to make the job worth the effort, despite their claim that rates have increased significantly. The fact that this years results have to correlate with last year's inflated results will make the job even more difficult.


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## Salvadore (10 Jun 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> Based on my limited recent experience in my dealings with various sections of the public service, productivity is certainly down compared to pre-covid levels. My experience does not count for a lot but I’ve read the news reportage and heard the usual anecdotal stories which support my view.
> 
> Revenue staff are unavailable after 1:30pm.
> 
> ...


Expect things to get worse. The public sector is in the same market for talent as all other employers and is less attractive than it used to be, particularly in relation to pensions for new entrants. Some complete donkeys are being appointed/promoted to positions of real importance without the skills or experience really needed. Genuine policymakers are getting thin on the ground.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (10 Jun 2022)

Salvadore said:


> The public sector is in the same market for talent as all other employers and is less attractive than it used to be, particularly in relation to pensions for new entrants.


On the money makeover threads I am regularly seeing private sector employees in their early 30s with >€100k incomes.

This is very hard to achieve in the public sector unless you are a medical consultant or in something like the NTMA.


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Jun 2022)

Thanks lads. Nothing new or useful being added.

Brendan


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