# why different standards apply in different councils with regard to estate mgt and TiC



## dubred06 (6 Oct 2006)

Hi, not sure if this is the right place to post this as it's not strictly a mortgage related question but more to do with after sales service (mods feel free to move to a more suitable location), but here goes.

I am trying to find out why different standards apply in different counties (or councils) with regard to estate management or taking in charge.  I bought a house in Kildare a couple of years ago and the residents association has taken upon itself to organise the upkeep of the common areas.  There is no management company involved but the developers did maintain these areas until they finished building.  When I lived in Dublin the council looked after these areas.  We all pay the same taxes regardless of where we live so why do we have to pay differently for services.  Recent discussion in the media would lead me to believe that the councils are responsible for these areas but won't accept that responsiblilty.  

The background to this question is that when our residents association looked for contributions for the upkeep of common areas the response was pitiful and is unlikely to improve.  I am looking for advice that is independent of the council.

Thanks in advance
Dave


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## MonkeeMan (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Estate Management*

The council won’t pay towards private maintenance. The residents need to vote to request the council to take on the estate. Once you have that they need to make a request to the council to take the estate in charge and then put on political pressure to see it through. If there are no apartments in the area it should be straightforward. 

You should contact the independent TD in Kildare who was elected on this issue (can’t remember her name) also contact the socialist party, just be careful not to let them take over (chair meetings etc.) They are good at getting publicity for this kind of thing.


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## dubred06 (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Estate Management*

Thanks, I think Catherine Murphy was on the radio yesterday in relation to management companies, just caught the end of it.  Your advice is exactly what I thought the situation should be, it just seems Kildare Co Co want to wait about 30 years before taking an estate in charge.


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## ClubMan (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Estate Management*

You say that there is no management company but it's not clear that the estate has been taken in charge by the_ Local Authority_. Perhaps you can clarify the status of the development in this context?


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## dubred06 (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Estate Management*

I am a little unclear on this ClubMan, I was under the impression that we had been left in limbo so to speak, the developers are gone and the local authority haven't take it in charge.  There is a small possibility that they have taken it in charge but still don't look after the common areas.  There is a RA meeting soon and I intend to ask exactly what the position is.  As MonkeeMan says I think some political pressure is required and it could be an opportune time!


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## ramble (6 Oct 2006)

*Re: Estate Management*

The developer remains responsible for the estate until it is taken in charge by the local authority.  Some developers will arrange for a bit of grass cutting etc and some won't.  If your estate is not taken in charge and there is a water or sewage problem then the developer is the one to contact not the local authority.  If the developer is willing the taking in charge process, even in Kildare, can go fairly quickly.  The developer usually contacts the council with a view to having the process started, the local authority will call out and "snag" the estate, the developer will have to do cctv surveys of the sewers etc.  The developer then deals with the snags and the council takes it over.  In kildare this means 2 -3 grass cuts a year, so you may end up having to pay something to the residents association if you want a higher level of maintenance


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## lufc-Tom (11 Jul 2008)

*Re: Estate Management*

I'd appreciate any advice any longer-term estate residents might have re the below ...

I live in a 200+ unit development in Mullingar - predominantly 3/4 bed detached and semi-ds, and 20 apartments. The apartments are laid out as five blocks of 4, basically 2 semi-ds per block each divided in 2, with each apartment having it's own access. Other than walls and floors/ceilings, the only common area is the carpark outside, which is separated from the rest of estate by a low (3-4 ft) wall. The apartments are in a prominent location at the entrance to the estate. There is no management company for the apartment complex.

The estate was taken in charge ~18 months ago. The council say they'll maintain roads and paths but grass-cutting, boundary walls, cycleways are the responsibility of the residents' association. They will offer some grants towards the work, but it's up to the RA to pay for it. As a committee member of the RA, I've been involved in trying to collect funds from the residents of the estate to that end. However, as at least 25% of the properties are rented, we're having difficulty collecting funds.

Right now, we have a problem with a separating wall between the apartment complex and a public green area. The council are telling the RA that it's not their responsibility. We disagree. We don't have the expertise to fix it ourselves, the funds to pay someone to do it, or frankly the inclination considering we've never received a contribution from any of the apartment owners. Unfortunately, it is a high-visibility issue.

We're looking to meet with the council to see if we can sort something out, but I'm getting extremely frustrated with their attitude. IANAL, but I'm sorely tempted to get all legal on their ass. As I see it:


the lack of a management company for the apartments is an issue for the council and the apartment owners - the council should have sorted it out before taking the estate in charge.
those areas of the estate which are not privately owned, are by definition common areas.
maintenance of common areas falls on the council.
trying to offload the reponsibility to the RA is just stealth outsourcing.
Thanks for hanging in there if you got this far 
Comments? Advice?


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## AKA (26 Jul 2008)

*Re: Estate Management*

Stealth outsourcing - I like the expression.  Just posted in another thread on our own experiences with Meath Co Co.

Strange you have no management company - are you sure that there's not a management company but no management agent? i.e. the owners are taking the role of agents - which is common in older apartment blocks.

Was the wall there before the apartments were built?


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## Happy Girl (26 Jul 2008)

*Re: why different standards apply in different councils with regard to estate mgt and*

We in more or less the same position. We have been lobbying local TDs who have pushed the "taking in charge" of our estate with the town council. We have written to council annually seeking funding for maintenance and grass cutting of the estate and we have received 800euro every year. So it might be worth doing the same if there is no sign of the estate being taken in charge. My understanding is that there is a pot of money there to be distributed for maintenance and grass cutting in estates.


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## AKA (27 Jul 2008)

*Re: why different standards apply in different councils with regard to estate mgt and*



Happy Girl said:


> We in more or less the same position. We have been lobbying local TDs who have pushed the "taking in charge" of our estate with the town council. We have written to council annually seeking funding for maintenance and grass cutting of the estate and we have received 800euro every year. So it might be worth doing the same if there is no sign of the estate being taken in charge. My understanding is that there is a pot of money there to be distributed for maintenance and grass cutting in estates.


 
800 euro wouldn't go far.
Our agent is charging us 30K to cut the grass - 3 times more than what the other estates in the area of comparable size are paying.


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## Brianne (27 Jul 2008)

*Re: why different standards apply in different councils with regard to estate mgt and*

It doesn't matter with KCC as to whether or not your estate is taken in charge or not , when it comes to maintenance of green areas. They have refused us and other estates any cutting of our green area but pay something like a 150 Euros annually to any residents' associations who claim it.
From what I see in mid/south Kildare, they only cut actual council estates despite the fact that a lot of these are privately owned, often by investors.

I have never understood it, the fact that they expect large greens to be maintained by locals. In an estate where people are agreeable to contribute, its fine , but it can cause a lot of ill feeling in small estates when people don't pay.


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## lufc-Tom (28 Jul 2008)

*Re: why different standards apply in different councils with regard to estate mgt and*

Wrt the management company, there is none. But I see that as an issue for the apartment owners and the CoCo. I gather that a couple of apartment sales have fallen through in the 12-18 months due to their undefined status.

The RA are an interested party in the situation solely due to the issue with the damaged wall between the apartments and a common green area within the estate proper.

Wrt the various CoCos offering various levels of service to residents, I have been trying (without success) to fiind out on what basis they can decide to abdicate their responsibilities. 

The fundamental issue is the lack of local taxes to provide the funding to allow them to provide the services they're supposed to be providing. I presume the County Manager determines what percentage of his budget is earmarked for the function at the annual estimates but I don't see how I can assess whether they're allocating sufficient funds to the service or the efficiency of the service.

Dumping the problem at the RA's door is not a reasonable approach. As we have a large number of rented properties in our estate, we're only achieving contribution rates of about 30%. We are in the situation where the RA is accountable for estate maintenance yet we have no authority to demand funding from residents. It is not sustainable and inequitable to expect 30% of the residents to cover the cost of estate maintenance.

If we had a bare minimum of rational local government, the CoCo would sit down with local RAs on an annual basis and agree/cost a program of work. The required funding would be divided by the number of property owners and they would be legally obliged to pay the contribution. I gather Mr. Gormley is looking at our local government structures at the moment; he might consider their financing also ...


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