# Are software engineers entitled to any expenses in employment allowance?



## ClubMan (9 Feb 2006)

See this thread from post #10 onwards.


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## kazbah (9 Feb 2006)

I get €85 and have since 2001.


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## ClubMan (9 Feb 2006)

I've emailed _Revenue _asking them for clarification and will post anything I get back.


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## DrMoriarty (9 Feb 2006)

kazbah said:
			
		

> I get €85 and have since 2001.


I get a similar 'professional' allowance, and it's meant to be increased slightly each year, in line with inflation or whatever. But every single year I have to chase them to get them to apply the increase.

Mind you, right now I'm still waiting to receive my Notice of Determination of Credits for the 'coming' year that started 6 weeks ago (not to mention a reply to a claim/request for an adjustment that I sent to them last July, and the previous March, and the previous January before that...)


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## kazbah (9 Feb 2006)

Dr M my €85 has never changed would it be worth asking the Tax Office should it reflect inflation.
TBH I don't even know where it came from. I don't have any P60s pre 2001 as it was all temporary work. I'm not sure when it appeared.


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## ClubMan (9 Feb 2006)

kazbah said:
			
		

> Dr M my €85 has never changed would it be worth asking the Tax Office should it reflect inflation.


 You need to figure out (a) what it is and (b) if you are actually entitled to it first! It *could *be an expenses in employment allowance/credit but it could be something else. 


			
				DrMoriarty said:
			
		

> I get a similar 'professional' allowance, and it's meant to be increased slightly each year, in line with inflation or whatever. But every single year I have to chase them to get them to apply the increase.


 What profession if you don't mind me asking? You're not a real doctor I take it and self employed don't qualify for the expenses in employment allowances/credits.


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## kazbah (10 Feb 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> You need to figure out (a) what it is and (b) if you are actually entitled to it first! It *could *be an expenses in employment allowance/credit but it could be something else.


 
Well I rang the PAYE helpline and the girl said I was entitled to it as it was "probably" a professional credit and was very vague.  Is it worth ringing again?


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## ClubMan (10 Feb 2006)

Yes - you need to find out precisely what the allowance is and if you are actually entitled to it. If your tax affairs are not up to date then this is ultimately your responsibility and _Revenue _could always claw back any inapplicable allowances if/when they realise that they were claimed in error.


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## hullabaloo (10 Feb 2006)

I never heard of this before.  Just did a quick search on the revenue site and found this document which might be of help albeit for 2003/4 ....

[broken link removed]


go to page 28 - there's a fascinating list of "expenses due" for each employment category - have no idea how this works so if anyone can shed light that would great.


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## ClubMan (10 Feb 2006)

A version ([broken link removed]) of that list was referenced in the thread linked in my first post.

The only one that I could possibly see applying to software and electronic engineers would be 


> *Engineering Industry and Electrical Industry
> 
> *All unskilled workers and skilled or semi-skilled workers who do not bear the full cost of own tools and overalls


 but I suspect that this is geared towards other occupations (e.g. electricians rather than software/electronic engineers)?


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## kazbah (10 Feb 2006)

Shop Assistants get €97 maybe that's where my €85 arose from.  If I'm no longer entitled to it have i covered my ass by ringing to enquire if I was eligible and I was told I was.  I told the girl on the phone I have been a Software Engineer since 2001.


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## ClubMan (10 Feb 2006)

kazbah said:
			
		

> If I'm no longer entitled to it have i covered my ass by ringing to enquire if I was eligible and I was told I was.


No - if you are not entitled to in then regardless of what you have already done you need to inform _Revenue _(e.g. in writing) that you no longer qualify for it and have been receiving it in error for a while. Once again - *it is the individual's sole responsibility to ensure that his/her tax affairs are kept up to date.*


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## kazbah (10 Feb 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> No - if you are not entitled to in then regardless of what you have already done you need to inform _Revenue _(e.g. in writing) that you no longer qualify for it and have been receiving it in error for a while. Once again - *it is the individual's sole responsibility to ensure that his/her tax affairs are kept up to date.*


 
I feel there should be some reasonable onus on them if an enquiry is made to give an accurate response.  I mean if I hadn't posted here I genuinely wouldn't know I am receiving this in error.


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## ClubMan (10 Feb 2006)

Regardless of what you feel about the matter - the facts are as I have posted them above.


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## DrMoriarty (10 Feb 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> What profession if you don't mind me asking? You're not a real doctor I take it...


No — Great Continental Steamer, of course. 

Incidentally, that Revenue table of allowances (like many on their website) is out of date. My allowance as listed there is now 12% higher than the figure given. I'd suggest that anyone ringing up to enquire about their own allowance, if applicable, should quote that table to them, demand a clear answer as to what the 2006 figure is, and submit a retrospective claim in writing. Judging from my own experiences, you should get a response sometime in 2007 or 2008...


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## ClubMan (10 Feb 2006)

Would it be worth writing to them saying something along the lines of _"I am a software engineer - please grant me any applicable expenses in employment allowances for the following tax years" _and leaving it at that?!


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## DrMoriarty (10 Feb 2006)

DrMoriarty said:
			
		

> ...you should get a response sometime in 2007 or 2008


No, I'd say ring 'em up, get an up-to-date figure (it's their job, ffs!) and then write in asking for a back-dated credit of €X. I have unanswered queries going back to the 90s, because I didn't ask the 'right question'...


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## kazbah (10 Feb 2006)

DrMoriarty said:
			
		

> No, I'd say ring 'em up, get an up-to-date figure (it's their job, ffs!) and then write in asking for a back-dated credit of €X. I have unanswered queries going back to the 90s, because I didn't ask the 'right question'...


 
But if they fail to give you the right answer you're legally obliged to figure it out yourself if you get a penny more than you should


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## ClubMan (10 Feb 2006)

kazbah said:
			
		

> But if they fail to give you the right answer you're legally obliged to figure it out yourself if you get a penny more than you should


Yes - or get independent, professional tax advice. Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just stating facts here.


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## DrMoriarty (10 Feb 2006)

Guess how many millions of euro are foregone in unclaimed tax relief every year? Admittedly, tax relief on rent paid is apparently the largest category (value-wise) — not this kind of stuff.


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## bacchus (14 Feb 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I've emailed _Revenue _asking them for clarification and will post anything I get back.


 
Wondering if you had got anything back from Revenue? Thanks


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## ClubMan (14 Feb 2006)

Not a sausage unfortunately.


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## ACCK01 (15 Feb 2006)

I rang revenue this morning to ask about the expense that Software Engineers/IT/Business Analsyts etc are intitled to and apparently it's nothing. Sorry folks. However I did find out that my tax credits cert is all wrong - I have no tax credits allocated to me this year and I'm on emergency tax - for some reason the information never carried over from '05 !!!


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## legend99 (15 Feb 2006)

ACCK01 said:
			
		

> I rang revenue this morning to ask about the expense that Software Engineers/IT/Business Analsyts etc are intitled to and apparently it's nothing. Sorry folks. However I did find out that my tax credits cert is all wrong - I have no tax credits allocated to me this year and I'm on emergency tax - for some reason the information never carried over from '05 !!!



I've been hearing rumours that they have a new system in operation this year for issuing/managing certs and that it is proving a disaster. Last year my cert was issued on Jan 21. Its now Feb 15 and no sign of it so perhaps those rumours aren't so far off the truth. Likewise from above if someone's credits just vanished during the carryover from one year to another. Not good.


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## ACCK01 (15 Feb 2006)

They actually have a completely new PAYE system altogether since October. It looks like there may be a few problems with it or at least with the data conversion from the old system.


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## dollykat (23 Feb 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Yes - you need to find out precisely what the allowance is and if you are actually entitled to it. If your tax affairs are not up to date then this is ultimately your responsibility and _Revenue _could always claw back any inapplicable allowances if/when they realise that they were claimed in error.



Some of these expenses categories are so non-specific and vague that there is little chance Revenue would attempt to claw back allowances let alone legally prove you are in the wrong.

I am an engineer and revenue agreed to allocate me the schedule E expenses for a Skilled Engineering Worker (185), i.e. there rules state

"Engineering Industry and Electrical Industry
Skilled workers who bear the full cost of own tools and overalls
Semi-skilled workers who bear the full cost of own tools and overalls
All unskilled workers and skilled or semi-skilled workers who
do not bear the full cost of own tools and overalls"

I am a Telecom Engineer, but engineering boundaries are so blurred these days that Revenue (or anyone) would be hard pushed to dispute that my position does not also cover software, electronic and mechanical engineering, probably similar for may "software engineers"

Good Luck


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## DC27 (22 Aug 2006)

This is a fairly old thread, but I think I can update it with useful info. Last February I sent a letter to my local tax office when I switched from being a contractor to a permy. I included the following paragraph:




> As I am employed as a Software Engineer and have to incur the cost of many industry journals, subscriptions and software tools to keep up-to-date with a fast changing industry, I believe I am also entitled to Schedule E flat-rate expense under the Engineering Industry heading. My understanding is that the expenses are allowed in the form of an additional tax credit, so I would be grateful if that could also be added.





I was awarded the flat rate expense credit. The nature of the engineering industry has changed a lot since the legislation was drawn up. There would have been little difference between a software engineer feeding punch card into a box full of valves and someone replacing a valve in said box.

I expressed what I believed to be the case and the revenue commissioners agreed with my argument. My argument is based on the fact that a software tool should be considered the same a wrench. I would love to see that challenged in a court of law


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## ClubMan (22 Aug 2006)

Interesting. Maybe I'll write to them too and see if I can get it. For the past four tax years ideally.


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## Towger (22 Aug 2006)

DC27 said:


> My argument is based on the fact that a software tool should be considered the same a wrench. I would love to see that challenged in a court of law


 
Hi, 

We write off all computer hardware and software over one year, on the grounds that they are the tools of our trade. Got an audit a few years ago and no problems. They did complain about the high cost of car parking in the IFSC being an expense. We asked them what their own staff did when they do an audit there and they went off with their tails between their legs. 

Towger.


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## ClubMan (1 Feb 2007)

I have contacted _Revenue _again, this time through their online system, asking if I (as a software engineer working for an electronics company) am entitled to one of the flat rated employment expenses. Hopefully they will reply this time...


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## Newby (1 Feb 2007)

I had no idea there was a Schedule E allowance for certain types of workers... As someone who trains other individuals as part of his job, I wonder if I am entitled to a part-time lecturer credit??? Only one way to find out.


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## ClubMan (1 Feb 2007)

Newby said:


> Only one way to find out.


The problem with this is that one could probably claim for anything and get it but later on find that one was not actually entitled to it and have to pay it back - i.e. if _Revenue _do any check at all then I'm sure that it would be cursory at best and they would treat this as a self assessment issue and assume honesty on the part of the taxpayer. Find and dandy except when the taxpayer simply doesn't know what if any allowance applies. Most people probably don't know what, say, an "embedded firmware engineer" or "FPGA IP tools engineer" is in order to know what category of employment they should slot into...


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## Newby (1 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> The problem with this is that one could probably claim for anything and get it but later on find that one was not actually entitled to it and have to pay it back - i.e. if _Revenue _do any check at all then I'm sure that it would be cursory at best and they would treat this as a self assessment issue and assume honesty on the part of the taxpayer. Find and dandy except when the taxpayer simply doesn't know what if any allowance applies. Most people probably don't know what, say, an "embedded firmware engineer" or "FPGA IP tools engineer" is in order to know what category of employment they should slot into...


 
I agree completely with self assessment and the presumption of honesty. But if you honestly believe you are entitle to a credit then you are entitled to claim it - this obviously means that "chancing an arm" is not sufficient reason to make a claim. 

Doing a quick search of the Revenue website I spotted that this document came out of the freedom of information stuff. Completely speculating here but looking at the types of categories that may claim, in the main there seems to be a lot of civil servanty type jobs or jobs that have a close connetion to the civil service. 

These credits may have been allowances that were previosuly given only to civil servants (and connected jobs). On the basis of an equitable tax system (& Freedom of Informatio), Revenue allow the same credits to people in similar jobs to the ones that match the civil servicey category. It doesn't cost the RC much because hardly any people know about it.   

If I did genuinely think I qualified (which to be honest teaching isn't my main or part time job and therefore don't think I should be entitled to any credit) I would also be sending in a copy of the Tax Briefing in which the expenses were listed together with a job description.


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## ClubMan (1 Feb 2007)

Thanks _Newby_. I'll need to review the list again and check what, if any, category I might reasonably fit into.


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## Newby (1 Feb 2007)

Just by way of update, these allowances seemed to have stemmed from employee groups that are represented by trade unions.

*From Revenue website...*
*FLAT RATE (EMPLOYMENT) EXPENSES

*These are expenses that are incurred in the performance of the duties of the employment and are directly related to the 'nature of the employee's employment'. A standard flat rate expenses allowance (deduction) is set for various classes of employee. For example, airline cabin crews are granted flat rate expenses of €64 per annum. *See Flat Rate Expenses list.* The amount of the deduction is agreed between Revenue and representatives of groups or classes of employees (usually the employees are represented by trade union officials). The agreed deduction is then applied to all employees of the class or group in question.


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## polaris (8 Feb 2007)

May I ask a question here about these flat rate expenses list?

Is the figure next to your occupation the actual tax credit you receive or do you get tax relief on this figure? For example, does an Aer Lingus pilot get a tax credit of €275 (the number in the table) or €55 (275*0.2)?

Secondly, on my latest tax credit certificate, I have a tax credit of €38.20 listed as flat rate expenses, however, my standard rate cut-off point is also increased by flat rate expenses of €191. By my calculations this increase in the SRCOP saves me €40.11 in tax. Therefore, my effective flat rate expenses tax credit is (38.20 + 40.11) is €78.31.

Is this the normal way flat rate expenses are deducted from your tax?


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2007)

The employment in expenses figures are the amounts on which relief is granted. Relief is at the employee's marginal rate so, for 2007, 20% or 41%. In the example above the relief would be worth €275 @ 41% for a high rate taxpayer or €275 @ 20% for a low rate taxpayer (doubt that there are too many pilots on the low rate though?). 

The way you describe the relief as being given on your statement of tax credits is correct if a little confusing (at least it was for me ). The increase in the standard rate band and the increased tax credit results in you paying no tax at your marginal rate on the €191 (€191 x 20% = €38.20 and €191 x 21% = €40.11 and €191 x 41% = €78.31 or €38.20 + €40.11). They do it this way to ensure that you only get 41% relief if you actually pay tax at 41%.

Probably not a great explanation but hopefully it helps...


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## polaris (8 Feb 2007)

Thanks Clubman, I think I'm beginning to understand it now.

So is the bottom line that pilots, for example, should be saving €112.75 (275*.41) from their tax bill and this €112.75 saving will be made by Revenue allocating them a tax credit and by also increasing their SRCOP?


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## pinkyBear (8 Feb 2007)

Hi all,
I rang the tax office myself and was informed that as a software engineer I was not entitled to expenses. It is only applicable to tjose who buy uniforms and tools.
P


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## ClubMan (8 Feb 2007)

polaris said:


> So is the bottom line that pilots, for example, should be saving €112.75 (275*.41) from their tax bill and this €112.75 saving will be made by Revenue allocating them a tax credit and by also increasing their SRCOP?


Yes. The allowance will be worth €112.75 to a high rate taxpayer and €55 to a low rate taxpayer.


pinkyBear said:


> Hi all,
> I rang the tax office myself and was informed that as a software engineer I was not entitled to expenses. It is only applicable to tjose who buy uniforms and tools.
> P


Oh well...


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## z107 (8 Feb 2007)

> It is only applicable to tjose who buy uniforms and tools.



Suit = uniform (I wouldn't buy the suit if I didn't need it for work)

PC, Software, memory sticks etc = Tools.


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2007)

Finally got a reply today from _Revenue _to my query on this matter{


> 2.With regards to expenses there are flat rate expenses relative  to
> particular jobs. These are agreed between Revenue and the relative  trade
> unions. Per the list I have there is none that I can find for  "Software
> engineers". It would be best to check with your union  representative to check
> ...


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## pinkyBear (7 Mar 2007)

Hi there,
I have rang the revenue about this serveral times and was told each time "No", however on the same day some of my colleagues have also rang the revenue and have recieved the tax relief..!


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## ixtlan (15 Apr 2007)

pinkyBear said:


> Hi all,
> I rang the tax office myself and was informed that as a software engineer I was not entitled to expenses. It is only applicable to tjose who buy uniforms and tools.
> P



Somewhat nonsensical considering the revenue list one category as "All unskilled workers and skilled or semi-skilled workers who do not bear the full cost of own tools and overalls. And as someone else said tools is a rather vague term.

I was just searching to see where I would put the engineers flat rate expenses on the form 11, when I came across this thread.

Does it go on the form 11 anywhere?

Ix


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## ixtlan (15 Apr 2007)

pinkyBear said:


> Hi all,
> I rang the tax office myself and was informed that as a software engineer I was not entitled to expenses. It is only applicable to tjose who buy uniforms and tools.
> P



Somewhat nonsensical considering the revenue list one category as "All unskilled workers and skilled or semi-skilled workers who do not bear the full cost of own tools and overalls. And as someone else said tools is a rather vague term.

I was just searching to see where I would put the engineers flat rate expenses on the form 11, when I came across this thread.

Does it go on the form 11 anywhere?

I've just read a few more threads on this. It seems very confused. Looks like the categories are vague enough to include most engineers, but Revenue if pressed think it only applies to Electrical engineers. I suspect this is because the ESB unions got this tax relief in the beginning...

Anyone got any updates on this?

Ix


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## kmelvin (16 Apr 2007)

Hi, could someone clarify a few things?

Do I need to provide proof of your job title?

I've been a Software Developer for 9 years. I'm referred to as a Software Engineer in my job but the job title is still 'Software Developer'. Will this have any kinda effect if I try to claim this?

Do we need to provide receipts for expenses - or is it like medical expenses (they don't require them but may request them at a later date)?

Thanks for any help

K.


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## ClubMan (16 Apr 2007)

kmelvin said:


> I've been a Software Developer for 9 years. I'm referred to as a Software Engineer in my job but the job title is still 'Software Developer'. Will this have any kinda effect if I try to claim this?


_Revenue _told me that software engineers are not entitled to any employment in expenses credit.

Where the credit is claimed I think it's all done on a self assessed basis and you don't have to vouch for the details unless asked (now or in the future).


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## kmelvin (16 Apr 2007)

Thanks Clubman.

Seems to be mixed results when contacting Revenue about this. I'll give it a try myself.


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## ClubMan (16 Apr 2007)

As ever I don't think that getting a "yes" from Revenue is necessarily the solution here. You need to get independent, professional confirmation that you are entitled to the credit before claiming it but the amount involved probably doesn't merit getting such advice. If you claim it and are not actually entitled to it (even if _Revenue _said that you were) then you are technically evading tax and you could eventually have to pay the relief back and _Revenue _will not accept any misinformation on their part as an excuse for you having incorrectly claimed the credit.


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## leex (11 Feb 2008)

*Any update since?*

Has there been update to this since? I got my statement of tax credits etc today and see a Flat Rate Expenses entry = 25.60euro. I'm 13 years employed in Software Development and definitely never requested this myself.


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## ClubMan (11 Feb 2008)

I asked them last year (?) and they said no. I'm not aware of anything that changes this in the meantime.


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