# Selling our house-do we have to disclose bad neighbours



## mrso'brien (26 May 2011)

We are in the process of selling our house. We have had serious problems with anti-social behaviour from our next door neighbours (adjoining hosue).This is the reason we are selling up.

We have had to go to the Gardai about them and they have made my life, my husband's life and my little baby's life absolutely miserable. 

It is a horrendous situtation but for our sanity and the sake of our marriage we need to get out of the house and sell up, even though we will be making a huge financial loss. They have been given Garda warnings but it all culminated in me being attacked by them last week and losing the baby I was pregnant with as a result (I was only 2 months pregnant but I am devastated). It is just the worst situation possible and we are quiet people who keep to ourselves and just want to get on with our own lives.

Anyway, sorry..all a bit long winded.

My question is....after all the drama we have been through with these people and the fact that we have had no choice but to get the gardai involved, do we have to disclose this to the auctioneer or in any way?

If we disclose what these people do, we will never be able to sell the house. I feel very guilty and very sorry for anyone who buys it from us, as they are going to have an equally horrendous time living beside these people. 

These people own the house next door, they are not renting. So are we covered legally if we just keep our mouths shut? Can the future purchaser come back and sue us or will we be liable in any way?

We have a new solicitor for the sale of the house. We don't want to tell this new solicitor about the problems and why we are selling up as we don't want to compromise her if she knew all the goings-on with the neighbours.

Thank you


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

My God Mrs O Brien I am so sorry to read that post from you. Thats just awful. I remember your other thread on it.

I dont think you are obliged to disclose anything but if the new people do searches online they may notice that the house is being resold quite quickly and ask why?

I would advise you to take legal advice from a totally different solicitor - a one off consultation where you can openly discuss this, then use someone else for the conveyance.


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## mrso'brien (26 May 2011)

Thanks Truthseeker. Yes we have had no choice now but to sell. It's horrific. I don't care about losing all the money at this stage. We will put the house on the market next week, we are in talks with the auctioneer at this point. 

Just don't want to sell and then have further problems down the line with the new purchasers coming after us.

This will prob now end up in court as the Gardai will bring it on foot of what they did to me last week. It's bizzare, completely 100% unprovoked. I just cannot believe people exist like that out there. I am getting counselling now to try get me over the trauma of it all.

Thanks


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## aristotle (26 May 2011)

Hope they get the justice they deserve in court.

You have no legal responsibility that I know of to tell any potential buyers about neighbours.

Thats a shocking thing to happen, hope things can only improve from here on it for you.

As this case is likely to go to court you should not post any details about what happened.


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## Guest105 (26 May 2011)

I am very sorry to hear how this has progressed, how awfully sad for you and your husband.

It is so very wrong you being practically forced out of your home by this scum, a home you described in your previous thread that you and your husband worked so hard for. I do sincerely hope that this gets to court as soon as possible and you won't be forced to sell up. Is there anything the gardai can do in the meantime to help keep these people from hurting you further?


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

I dont blame you just wanting to get out now - no amount of money is worth your own personal safety and peace of mind and peaceful life.

These people are total scum and I sincerely hope that they are charged and punished to the full degree possible by the law for their attack on you.

Can you investigate selling the house to the local authority/council for them to put tenants into - the tenants will be complaining if the neighbours act against them and the council will have plenty of legal push to go after them in that case.


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## mrso'brien (26 May 2011)

Thanks all. 

Truthseeker, to be honest I haven't contacted the Local council. I just don't want to go down a route like that because a friend of mine sold her house to them and she only got a fraction of what she would have got on the open market. So we will try and sell it on the open market first. But thanks for the suggestion.

Aristotle, I won't be posting anything further on the sequence of events of that fateful night. Thanks for the advice.

Cashier, yes the Gardai have issued them with 'paperwork', I'm not quite sure what that's meant to mean but they are basically bound to keep the peace and not allowed breach a number of items on this list of Garda warnings.

However, they are breaching this warning on a daily basis and it is unbearable trying to live there. Every weekend for the last 6 weeks, we have left the house and stayed with friends, relatives and we had a weekend away in a hotel. It's impossible to live there and we're getting broken sleep from all the disturbances.

One positive thing that did come out is that the Gardai had to go to other neighbours that night about everything and EVERY single other neighbour told the Gardai how they couldn't stand these people and how they are so difficult and how everyone felt so sorry for us when we moved in. A small comfort, but it's great knowing we have the neighbourhood behind us. All the same, we cannot continue to live in that house, fearful for our safety, our health and our marriage.

Thanks for all your replies.


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## Sylvia200 (26 May 2011)

Buy or borrow two great big dogs and keep them with you when you are leaving the house.


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## aristotle (26 May 2011)

Sylvia200 said:


> Buy or borrow two great big dogs and keep them with you when you are leaving the house.


 
Could be a bit dangerous as there is a child\baby in the house already.


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Can you investigate selling the house to the local authority/council for them to put tenants into - the tenants will be complaining if the neighbours act against them and the council will have plenty of legal push to go after them in that case.


The council will have no more legal powers than any householder. They may have (like any large organisation) easier access to legal resources, but they won't have any special powers. AFAIK, councils are not in the market for buying individual houses at the moment. 

I have the greatest sympathy for the OP, but I also have the greatest sympathy for other potential purchasers. Put yourself in the shoes of the potential buyers, and ask how you'd expect to be treated.


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> The council will have no more legal powers than any householder. They may have (like any large organisation) easier access to legal resources, but they won't have any special powers. AFAIK, councils are not in the market for buying individual houses at the moment.


 
They will have easier access to legal resources - which is what I meant. Also if the council were owners of the property and put tenants in the council would be responsible for sorting the neighbours out, an organisation as opposed to a private individual who can be attacked or have their life made miserable.

Some areas are still desirable for councils buying properties - a friend has sold to one recently, but as Mrs O Brien says - it sold for less that it might have gotten on the open market.

I do feel for potential new buyers but perhaps they would not mind the noise, the previous occupants didnt seem to mind, you never know who would buy, it could be someone very hard core who would not be intimidated by the neighbours, it could be someone deaf who didnt notice the noise, it could be a guard who the neighbours would be afraid to intimidate.


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## mrso'brien (26 May 2011)

I couldn’t agree more with you Complainer. I am already fraught with guilt – myself and my husband are so frazzled at the moment over what we will do if a young couple put a bid on the house.
It’s not so much the noise element that the main issue is….some people can tolerate noise (albeit, the noise that we experience is truly deafening). The other backlashes that we got from asking them to keep it down were much more serious and frightening.
The Gardai have even told us these people are v.dangerous. The man of the house’s brother is in prison for grevious bodily harm. Just shows the calibre of these people. Not to mention what they did to me. The Gardai have warned me not to be in the house on my own.
However, we are caught between a rock and a hard place. We can’t live there so the only option is to rent or to sell. We can’t rent as we are 100% sure that we would be unable to keep tenants in the house. The reasons being that these people hate us with a vengeance and would do anything and everything to drive tenants away, we know that for certain.
They have come to our door and threatened us saying ‘had better sell up..or else’.  Honestly, you wouldn’t see a script like this in Eastenders.
So, our only option is to be driven from our home and to sell up. I am seriously afraid that they will do worse to us, that they will come in some night drunk or drugged to the nines and do some very permanent serious damage (even though what they did to me was v.permanent in that I lost the baby). I know they have a shotgun or rifle in the house too – the woman said that before to me that if ever anyone broke into their house they have the gun under their bed. 
These people drink a lot and are so out of it half the time I’d bet anything there are hardcore drugs being taken too. The woman of the house is so possessed-looking when she is in one of her ‘rages’ that it is beyond the realms of normality.
So, if we don’t sell we have to continue to live there, which we cannot do. If we don’t sell we won’t have enough money to rent somewhere else. I really can’t see what choice we have.


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Also if the council were owners of the property and put tenants in the council would be responsible for sorting the neighbours out, an organisation as opposed to a private individual who can be attacked or have their life made miserable.


Where did you get this from, that councils are responsible for the behaviour of neighbours of council properties?



truthseeker said:


> I do feel for potential new buyers but perhaps they would not mind the noise, the previous occupants didnt seem to mind, you never know who would buy, it could be someone very hard core who would not be intimidated by the neighbours, it could be someone deaf who didnt notice the noise, it could be a guard who the neighbours would be afraid to intimidate.


Well then the OP should advertise the house as suitable for hard core, deaf or Gardaí, and not seek to unload their problem onto some other poor sucker.


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## bluemac (26 May 2011)

what a great idea offer it for rent to a local gardai, at a discount rent.. tell him why..  let him live there and they may calm down. put it on the market whilst he is in there 

then if the neighbours are better I think you could sell without worrying too much especially if you sell it at a discount at auction,.


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## Vanilla (26 May 2011)

OP- from a legal point of view, your solicitor will ask you:

*'In relation to boundaries*- is there a dispute with adjoining neighbours.' and

'Is there any litigation pending or threatened or has any Court Order been made* in relation to the property* or any part of it or the use thereof...'

As you can see, the legalities of selling a property are concerned only with anything that might threaten the title to the property. As solicitors we are not involved in personal disputes between neighbours or the disclosure thereof.

I'm not making a moral judgement here, just pointing out the legal position.


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## aristotle (26 May 2011)

bluemac said:


> what a great idea offer it for rent to a local gardai, at a discount rent.. tell him why.. let him live there and they may calm down. put it on the market whilst he is in there
> 
> then if the neighbours are better I think you could sell without worrying too much especially if you sell it at a discount at auction,.


 
I think even Gardai like to have lives outside of their day job.


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## mrso'brien (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Well then the OP should ......not seek to unload their problem onto some other poor sucker.


 
Complainer while I see your point, we are in a very difficult situation. We have our baby to think of and her safety is 100% my utmost concern and I will do ANYTHING to protect my family.

If we stay in that house any one of us will potentially end up being further assaulted or have a mental breakdown or a marriage breakdown with the stress. Without going into specifics, my baby was targeted by the nut-job woman. Don't want to go into too much detail but a specific real threat was created for my baby.

we don't have a choice. Of course we want to stay there, but not with the torment we are going through at the moment. We are flat broke. Our accounts are in debit. We can't afford to move out now and rent somewhere else until it's sold. And yet we can't stay there. 

we find ourselves in a very, very difficult situation and while I wouldn't wish this situation on my worst enemy, i really don't want to be judged for trying to sell my house to make life better for me and my family.

It's very hard to know what you would do until you are faced with a no-win situation like this. BTW I phoned the council. They're not buying anything now. If we want to rent to them, they want us to find the tenants and they then subsidise or something like that. Not interested in that, we wouldn't get tenants to stay.


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## Ceist Beag (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Where did you get this from, that councils are responsible for the behaviour of neighbours of council properties?
> 
> 
> Well then the OP should advertise the house as suitable for hard core, deaf or Gardaí, and not seek to unload their problem onto some other poor sucker.



Complainer that is a bit of a pious attitude. The OP has suffered quite horrendously in this house so I think she is quite entitled to put her own family first. If it were me I would do exactly the same. Do you have any meaningful suggestion for the OP here?


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

mrso'brien said:


> Complainer while I see your point, we are in a very difficult situation. We have our baby to think of and her safety is 100% my utmost concern and I will do ANYTHING to protect my family.


I understand this, and my heart goes out to you, and I've no idea what I would do in your shoes. 

Having said all that, selling up without disclosing the problem really does seem like dumping the problem on someone else.


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## mrso'brien (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Having said all that, selling up without disclosing the problem really does seem like dumping the problem on someone else.


 
Maybe this is so, I don't know. But we are stuck between a rock and a hardplace here. I know after losing the baby that I can never get pregnant again while living in that house. I also know that our marriage could be in trouble with all the stress if it were to continue. And I also know that our safety is at risk.

Weighing up all those factors really doesn't leave us with much of a choice. 

One could also say that the problem was passed on to us too from the previous owners. (I know from other neighbours that they had problems keeping the house rented until the last set of tenants moved in).

Maybe we are dumping the problem on someone else, but at the end of the day I will end up having a mental breakdown if we stay there. I don't see a choice in this and no outcome out of this situation is going to be the 'right' or 'fair' outcome for anyone.

The only 'right' or 'fair' outcome would be for the culprits next door to move away, preferably to a desert island where they couldn't hurt anyone.


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Where did you get this from, that councils are responsible for the behaviour of neighbours of council properties?


 
Where did I get *what *from? Where exactly did I say councils are responsible for behaviour of neighbours? Unless you have serious intelligence issues I think it is quite obvious that if a council owned property is failing to house tenants due to anti social behaviour from neighbours then the council will step in and get those anti social issues sorted out. Its hardly rocket science.
However - its irrelevant anyway as the OP cannot sell to the council.



Complainer said:


> Well then the OP should advertise the house as suitable for hard core, deaf or Gardaí, and not seek to unload their problem onto some other poor sucker.


 
Normally people are capable of extrapolating general cases from specific examples. Since you seem unable to do so let me make it a bit clearer - no one knows who would buy the property and if they would be bothered by the neighbours. It may turn out ok for the next people. Im sorry you couldnt understand that.

Do you actually have any constructive suggestion for the OP or would you prefer to continue to make her feel even worse about an already awful situation with emotive posts about the next poor suckers?


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## Complainer (26 May 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Where did I get *what *from? Where exactly did I say councils are responsible for behaviour of neighbours? Unless you have serious intelligence issues I think it is quite obvious that if a council owned property is failing to house tenants due to anti social behaviour from neighbours then the council will step in and get those anti social issues sorted out. Its hardly rocket science.


Where did you get the idea that the council will step in and get those anti-social issues sorted out? The council (or any owner of the private property) will have no special power over the neighbours. They will have no legal options that the OP does not already have. They have no magic wand.



truthseeker said:


> Normally people are capable of extrapolating general cases from specific examples. Since you seem unable to do so let me make it a bit clearer - no one knows who would buy the property and if they would be bothered by the neighbours. It may turn out ok for the next people. Im sorry you couldnt understand that.


I'll ignore the personal attack on me for the purposes of moving the debate forward. If you/OP believe that they can find people who would NOT be bothered by the neighbours, then they should disclose the problems up front. The chances of finding somebody who would not be bothered by the behaviours described by the OP are slim to none - you know that of course.



truthseeker said:


> Do you actually have any constructive suggestion for the OP or would you prefer to continue to make her feel even worse about an already awful situation with emotive posts about the next poor suckers?


I'm not going to make suggestions that are constructive for the OP if they are destructive from some other innocent party - the potential purchasers.


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## PaddyW (26 May 2011)

With all respect Complainer, if you don't have any advice to offer the OP, then perhaps you should step back from the topic and allow others that may have some suggestions to make, to voice them. This poor woman has had a very, very hard time and even though I know you have said your heart goes out to her, other posts are coming across very cold and must be making her feel terrible.


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## truthseeker (26 May 2011)

@Complainer - Im not even going to bother to respond as I feel your posts are really not helping the OP in this situation.

OP - I fully support your decision to sell the house. Its a terrible situation and you have been physically attacked, lost a baby, and your family, including your child are in danger. It is your responsibility to protect yourself and your family.The only option you have is to sell. As Ive already said, who knows who the potential buyers might be. It could be anyone and it could just as easily be someone who doesnt mind the neighbours as someone who does. Its not really your worry right now - you have got to get out of there and find a safe place to be.


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## callybags (26 May 2011)

It's up to any potential purchaser to do their own homework regarding the area and neighbours.

Before I bought my house, I spent weeks cruising around the area by car and on foot at various times of the day and night to get a feel for what it was like.

The OP should have no qualms about not disclosing the difficulties as it is completely outside her control.


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## z107 (26 May 2011)

I you disclose any of this to potential buyers you'll never sell the property. It's that simple. If you want to sell (which you should do ASAP) then market the house in the best way to can.

The new buyers may be better able to handle the situation.
(Maybe even worse scum will buy it)

Did you get forewarned about the neighbours when you bought?


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## Spear (26 May 2011)

Potential buyers can enquire at the Garda station before they buy into the area, so you can argue it is up to then to check it out. However, it seems to me that there could be a "karma issue" by passing the problem on. Difficult one. I like the idea about renting it cheaply to a garda!


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## mrso'brien (26 May 2011)

Thanks to everyone who posted.

Vanilla, I never thanked you for giving me the legal side of things.Many thanks.

I didn't really want to get into the right or wrongs of the moral element of selling the property.I just really wanted to ensure that we weren't going to end up in further trouble legally if we were to sell.

This thread has kind of turned into a debate on the morality of what we are doing.

1. We were never told of any problems with the neighbours before purchasing.

2. We DID case the area, walked around, drove the area etc before we bought. Obviously we didn't case the place enough or we wouldn't be in this mess.

3. I don't believe that what we are doing will bring bad 'karma' to us as one poster suggested it would/could. I think we have already had our share of bad karma with these neighbours. 

4.They will have caused us to have to give up our family home, directly caused us to have lost a baby, caused me physical harm, disturbed our home and peace and quiet, ensured we haven't had a full night sleep in months, destroyed our back garden, caused criminal damage to our property (again won't go into details as it's likely Gardai will prosecute them on this), damaged my husband's car, put poison (I kid you not) in our back garden and my little girl picked it up and almost ate it. We have very sufficient evidence to prove it was them too and they admitted it to Gardai although trying to cover their tracks they said it 'accidentally' fell over the wall and then changed their story to say they were trying to 'get' the cats in the area! (Yes, mad I know). Gardai were having none of it of course.

5. Myself and my husband are bordering on depression at this stage. It is a living nightmare. I am finding it hard to accept that we have lost the pregnancy as a result of what they did to me.

6.Luckily until now I have always been very healthy mentally but I am now seeing a counsellor and trying to learn ways to cope with the circumstances of all that has happened.

7. We have to, and owe it to, our daughter to ensure that she lives in a safe environment and that we ourselves, are not in any danger.

8. If we won the lotto or had enough money to be able to just leave the place, we would. Unfortunately we are struggling at the moment (isn't everyone!?) and we pumped all our savings into doing up the house. We haven't a red penney and we NEED to sell the house if we are to move elsewhere and be able to rent somewhere.

9. I realise that some of you are judging me on this. But I ask you, WHAT would you do in our situation??????? would you just stay because of what 'might' happen to the next people who live in the house??????????

10. Of course, I have dreadful guilt about selling the house to anyone else. I am plagued with thoughts of 'what'll we do if some other young couple puts a bid on?'. I wouldn't have any conscience if I wasn't plagued with guilt over it. I feel terrible about this whole situation.

11. The ideal situation would be that some investor would buy the house and be so loaded as not to care whether it was rented or not. OR people of the same calibre as the neighbours buy it.

I wish this thread had not turned into a moral debate on whether it should be sold or not. If we disclose to the auctioneer, we will NEVER ever be able to get out of here and the end result will be that one of us will end up seriously injured, having a mental breakdown, having a marriage break-up or dead (I know that sounds extreme but I dread to think what would have happened if my daughter ate the poison...she's at an age when everything she touches goes straight into the mouth).

We DON'T have an option. By God if we did we would certainly consider it! But we have thought of everything at this stage and we have decided to sell it. And I want to thank people for giving me the legal side of things. And let's just hope that bad 'karma' doesn't follow us for selling, as one poster suggested would happen. We've had enough of that at this stage and we deserve a break.


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## TreeTiger (26 May 2011)

Mrs O'Brien, my heart breaks for what you and your family are going through at the moment and I hope things improve for you all very soon.  My condolences on the loss of your unborn baby.

I wonder if you have tried talking to any local councillors or TDs?  I know of a house near where I live where a drug dealer moved in (I think he may have been housed by the council though) where the problems were dealt with swiftly, and I think it was largely due to the efforts of a local councillor.  I don't know if a councillor or TD could help you, but it might be worth a chat?


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## z107 (26 May 2011)

When you sell and move on, things should hopefully improve. The root cause of your problems will be removed. You may end up poor, but you have plenty time to make more money.



> 10. Of course, I have dreadful guilt about selling the house to anyone else. I am plagued with thoughts of 'what'll we do if some other young couple puts a bid on?'. I wouldn't have any conscience if I wasn't plagued with guilt over it. I feel terrible about this whole situation.



Why feel guilt? It's not you that should feel guilt, but your neighbours. They are the ones causing problems, not you. Whoever you sell to might be able to handle them better.


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## losttheplot (26 May 2011)

Are they the owners of the house or are they being housed by the council. I thought the council could take action against anti social behaviour by their tenants.

I hope it works out for you.


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## Spear (27 May 2011)

Mrs O Brien, I sincerely hope you and your family come out of all this ok. Apologies if my comments seemed judgmental on your moral position. That was not the intention. You have got more than your fair share of bad luck. I wonder, though, if there is a civil legal route which could be taken? Perhaps the house could be rented in the meantime.


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## Bronte (27 May 2011)

mrso'brien said:


> Vanilla, I never thanked you for giving me the legal side of things.Many thanks.
> 
> I didn't really want to get into the right or wrongs of the moral element of selling the property.I just really wanted to ensure that we weren't going to end up in further trouble legally if we were to sell.
> 
> .


 
Mrs. O' Brien, you need to sell this house, there is no other option.  You've gone through all the other options.  When you live beside someone who does not believe in the law and when the law cannot help you then you have to help yourself.  That means selling this house at whatever loss.  

The legal side is clear cut.  You do not have to disclose anything in relation to your neighbours.  You tell the auctioneer, the solicitor and anyone else involved nothing.  

The only problem I can see if if you can sell for the mortgage amount.  And if not the mortgage amount will the bank agree.  If not and a fund were set up for you I would happily contribute.  You have taken enough abuse and do not need it on here. There is only one short life, and all that is important is your family.  Your only obligation in life is to ensure they are safe.  May the love of your family guide you.


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## truthseeker (27 May 2011)

Lovely post Bronte - many many +1's to that.


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## sadie (27 May 2011)

We bought our house in Dublin's inner city. Our neighbours weren't quite as bad but near enough. However, they moved out for a year for some reason and rented the place out. But then then the daughter moved back in and the nightmare continued. I was only home from hospital 2 days with the new baby when the girl next door came over banging on the door and shouting and screaming and swearing at me for off for asking her brother to turn down the music the day before, who the eff did I think I was, etc, etc. And so it began. So I know exactly what you are going through. 

Go ahead and sell your house, forget about any potential purchaser's problems. 
For all you know those people next door might be gone out of there in a year's time (moved to Spain due to gang problems - anything might happen). You can't be responsible. 
Like any house that is a quiet house can suddenly become a noisy house with nightmare tenants, elderly people can move out and students or antisocial neighbours can move in - no one can predict the future. 

Not your problem.  

The new buyers may be people just like your neighbours who think they are great craic altogether and be only delighted to share a few cans and tales of who was in the Joy with them the last time they were in.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 May 2011)

I think that both sides of the argument have been heard here.


Brendan


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