# rant about beggars



## Gordanus (1 Aug 2007)

I'm sick of being accosted by beggars.  Especially if you have a coffee outside at a pavement table in Dublin you're guaranteed to be accosted by 3 different beggars.  I overheard a conversation between 3 beggars at the Luas stop at Stephen's Green, talking about accommodation. One said that he'd been given 3 nights in a B&B but never went as he just didn't get around to it.  I'm happy enough to give to charity (though that last b*gg*r was defrauding the taxpayer) but I refuse to hand out cash to beggars cos it just encourages them.
So...2 questions:
if you give to beggars, why do you do so?
If everyone stopped giving to beggars, would they vanish or would there be an increase in petty theft, pick-pocketing, and mugging?


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## Sunny (1 Aug 2007)

Gordanus said:


> I'm sick of being accosted by beggars. Especially if you have a coffee outside at a pavement table in Dublin you're guaranteed to be accosted by 3 different beggars. I overheard a conversation between 3 beggars at the Luas stop at Stephen's Green, talking about accommodation. One said that he'd been given 3 nights in a B&B but never went as he just didn't get around to it. I'm happy enough to give to charity (though that last b*gg*r was defrauding the taxpayer) but I refuse to hand out cash to beggars cos it just encourages them.
> So...2 questions:
> if you give to beggars, why do you do so?
> If everyone stopped giving to beggars, would they vanish or would there be an increase in petty theft, pick-pocketing, and mugging?


 
Well even the charities are saying you shouldn't give money to people begging and especially children so I am not sure why people still do it either.


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## shanegl (1 Aug 2007)

I give to beggar's the odd time because I feel sorry for them (mostly while I'm out at night, I've seen many a beggar suffer terrible abuse at the hands of drunkards). Only the more passive ones sitting on the side of the street. Any that approach me (usually drunk or on heroin it seems) don't get anything because they manage to get my back up.


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## Gabriel (1 Aug 2007)

I never give to beggars. Ever. Unfortunately some people do and always will and so the cycle continues. If people really understood the issue they wouldn't give a penny to any beggar no matter who...

The fact that we live in such an affluent country and yet allow homelessness and begging appalls me sometimes. When I see children I'm particularly dismayed. These tend to be immigrant (gypsy?) children begging on their own or women with babies. 

It is nothing short of an outrage that we allow this go on. These children should be taken into care immediately and parents made jump through hoops to get them back!


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## ClubMan (1 Aug 2007)

Sunny said:


> Well even the charities are saying you shouldn't give money to people begging and especially children so I am not sure why people still do it either.


_ISPCC _recently called on people not to give money to beggars - at least children begging.


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## ClubMan (1 Aug 2007)

Gabriel said:


> These children should be taken into care immediately and parents made jump through hoops to get them back!


Seems to me that the powers that be are content to leave the many winos and junkies, who can barely look after themselves never mind anybody else, around _Dublin _city to keep their kids in tow in spite of the obvious dangers to the health and wellbeing of the children. Not sure if changes in children's rights legislation will change this?


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## Thirsty (1 Aug 2007)

> ....children should be taken into care immediately ....


Yeah, 'cos children in care and foster homes are so well treated, they'd never miss their parents... 

I agree that begging (children esp.) and homelessness is heartbreaking particularly in an affluent society...but there are things you can do to help

You can give money to your charity of choice which is working in this area, you can volunteer for youth work, or do volunteer hours for the Simon Community etc., and do your bit to give something back in thanks for the great start in life that your parents were able to give you....


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## casiopea (1 Aug 2007)

Whenever I see children begging I usually try and stop into a spar buy a sandwhich and juice and give it to them.  I never give money.


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## Purple (1 Aug 2007)

casiopea said:


> Whenever I see children begging I usually try and stop into a spar buy a sandwhich and juice and give it to them.  I never give money.



I didn't know they had Spar shop in Switzerland


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## boaber (1 Aug 2007)

Purple said:


> I didn't know they had Spar shop in Switzerland



there is   [broken link removed]  . Spar are all over Europe.  In fact they claim that "SPAR is the world's largest retail chain with 17500 stores in 32 countries on five continents".

Back to the topic, was in New York last year and hardly seen any beggars/homeless people on the streets.  The few that I did see hid themselves away in the shadows.

Whatever the policy was there to get to this should be implemented here.  Time to get the junkies intimidating people at Luas stops etc off the street


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## shootingstar (1 Aug 2007)

About 2 yrs ago, Neil Prendeville had a guy on his chat show. The guy wanted to see what he could make from begging in the cork area and he would be giving any monies donated to the Simon Community. If my memory serves me right, in the space of 24 hrs he had a whopping €180 collected...!!! People rang in afterwards and joked that they were going to give up their day jobs to go begging.


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## pc7 (1 Aug 2007)

on the right hook they other day they were talking about begging gangs cork who are fighting over pitches and are earning upwards of 100 euro an hour. it really should be banned so as to protect the children involved.


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## Gabriel (1 Aug 2007)

Kildrought said:


> Yeah, 'cos children in care and foster homes are so well treated, they'd never miss their parents...



Nothing got to do with it.

Are they better off sitting on the side of a road begging for money? 

I don't know enough about foster homes...but I doubt that they're that bad. They're just regular people who want to adopt.

The point is if you feel it's okay to stick your child on the streets then you don't deserve the right to be that childs guardian and therefore should have that right taken away from you (even if it's only temporary).


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## casiopea (1 Aug 2007)

purple said:


> I didn't know they had Spar shop in Switzerland





boaber said:


> there is   [broken link removed]  . Spar are all over Europe.  In fact they claim that "SPAR is the world's largest retail chain with 17500 stores in 32 countries on five continents".



and SPAR is actually a german word meaning "saving" or thrift.


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## Vanilla (1 Aug 2007)

Purple said:


> I didn't know they had Spar shop in Switzerland


 

Perhaps he meant to say- ' I didn't know they had beggars in Switzerland'


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## bigjoe_dub (1 Aug 2007)

i was walking down Grafton street the other day and a begger says to me "can you spare 50c for a cup of coffee?"

I thought to myself that in the age of the Celtic tiger 50c for a cup of coffee was excellent value.


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## CCOVICH (1 Aug 2007)

20p back in the days of the punt.


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## capall (1 Aug 2007)

I only give money to older people begging.

There is a young guy who begs outside dunnes store in georges street,he makes me laugh ,he is fat and healthy looking. I can't believe anyone would give him money but obviously they do or he wouldn't be there


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## Purple (1 Aug 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Perhaps he meant to say- ' I didn't know they had beggars in Switzerland'


 This is what I was getting as but it was a bit too abstract.


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## boaber (1 Aug 2007)

Sorry Purple - wasn't on the same page as you at all


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## TreeTiger (1 Aug 2007)

This is how beggars in Prague beg: [broken link removed]

I wonder if beggars here were expected to assume such a position, would we have as many?  I suspect not!


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## Gordanus (1 Aug 2007)

There was a UTV programme which sent 2 people out to the streets - one to beg, the other to busk.  The beggar made more money.

If you do give to beggarrs, how much would you give?
If you give food, do you ever have it thrown back at you?

No reply to Q2: if nobody gave to beggars, would muggings/pickpocketing increase? I suspect it would.


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## ClubMan (1 Aug 2007)

TreeTiger said:


> This is how beggars in Prague beg: [broken link removed]


There is (was?) an old man around _Dublin _city centre who begs like that.

On the other hand - there's a lot to be said for [broken link removed]...

[broken link removed]


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## TreeTiger (1 Aug 2007)

ClubMan said:


> There is (was?) an old man around _Dublin _city centre who begs like that.


It's not catching on much then?


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## Thirsty (1 Aug 2007)

> I don't know enough about foster homes.


quite.


> They're just regular people who want to adopt


Fostering is quite different from adopting. 

I'm not being in any way derogatory about families who foster, but taking children away from their parents is not the first recourse and anyone working in this area will tell you that.

If you really care about children or about social issues, put your money where your mouth is...do something to make a difference.


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## Gabriel (1 Aug 2007)

Kildrought said:


> quite.



indeed.



Kildrought said:


> If you really care about children or about social issues, put your money where your mouth is...do something to make a difference.



I always hate that answer...mainly because it's a complete cop out. 

Naturally not every problem is black and white and therefore not every solution is black and white. That being said...I will reiterate...if parents care so little for their own children that they'll send them out begging then the first thing that needs to happen is those children need to be taken *off the streets*!
I don't care if foster parents aren't the ideal solution to that childs problems. They're a darn sight better than begging on the streets aren't they?
After that you can get into the hows of how you rejoin the child with their family etc. The point is those parents need to be taught a lesson. It shouldn't be so easy to get away with child cruelty. What happens in other situations where parents are found to be negligent or there is a suspicion of cruelty? What does the state do in those circumstances? 

What's happening now (in relation to begging) is they're just left there. This is happening all around one of the wealthiest cities in Europe...
Who has the power to make this change? The charitable groups that help these children on a daily basis (who've been at it for years)? The general public? Or someone else who can make it all go away overnight...?

We're always so quick to point the finger at ourselves in relation to these injustices. Oh why amn't I doing something about it. Why amn't I bringing a sandwich to that poor little child huddled in a blanket in Stephens Green at night. I'm not knocking the people who do...far from it. I'm merely pointing out that we elect people to govern us and make the bad things not happen. Then when we point out the great social injustices of our age...we look at ourselves as opposed to those governing us for answers!!!


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## room305 (2 Aug 2007)

Gabriel said:


> I'm merely pointing out that we elect people to govern us and make the bad things not happen.



I know some Fianna Failers consider themselves to be minor deities but you might be expecting a little too much from your elected representatives ...


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## Purple (3 Aug 2007)

room305 said:


> I know some Fianna Failers consider themselves to be minor deities but you might be expecting a little too much from your elected representatives ...


 Nothing like a sweeping generalisation eh?


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## sinbadsailor (3 Aug 2007)

Don't be fooled into thinking that 'all' beggars are hard off.
How much would you think a beggar in a busy spot in the capital actually takes in if they were doing it 9-5 mon-fri? You would be surprised!

Some of them are there because they have no drive to help themselves, there are people and organisations that can help. The B&B example above shows this....

I never give, never have, and don't feel for any of them I'm afraid, especially if they are sitting there with a placard as they cant speak the bloody language of the country they have 'landed' in.


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## Gabriel (3 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> Don't be fooled into thinking that 'all' beggars are hard off.



There are indeed professional beggars out there. I know of two in particular. I saw one guy get out of his car on Pembroke road one day...just proceeded to beg with a cup in his hand. Guy was as well dressed and clean shaven as me.

In relation to children begging...case in point: I just ran down to Dawson Street Car Park to move my car. There's a young girl (can't be more than 14) sitting outside the entrance begging. I've regularly seen a small boy (a lot younger) on previous occasions sitting just opposite the same entrance. This is happening...what...less than 500 metres from Leinster House?


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## sinbadsailor (3 Aug 2007)

We have to be honest here, politician's do not have any idea of what it is like to live as a 'mortal' under them. Plush cars/offices/trips/television interviews etc means they are as far out of touch as they can be.

Money and business talk. Now if it was a major supermarket or some other large business lobbying them to make begging illegal outside their stores for a couple of 'plates' at the Galway races tent, maybe they would do something.

They don't care, to be honest! It's a reality.


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## nlgbbbblth (4 Aug 2007)

Much prefer to give money to beggars than to chuggers.

At least beggars are polite and don't resort to bullying and intimidation.


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## Gordanus (5 Aug 2007)

nlgbbbblth said:


> Much prefer to give money to beggars than to chuggers..



Why not give your money to a charity?


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## Purple (5 Aug 2007)

sinbadsailor said:


> We have to be honest here, politician's do not have any idea of what it is like to live as a 'mortal' under them. Plush cars/offices/trips/television interviews etc means they are as far out of touch as they can be.
> 
> Money and business talk. Now if it was a major supermarket or some other large business lobbying them to make begging illegal outside their stores for a couple of 'plates' at the Galway races tent, maybe they would do something.
> 
> They don't care, to be honest! It's a reality.



Many live quite modest lives. Many are also very involved in local community groups and have public clinic in their constituency offices most weeks. But hay; don't let the facts get in the way when you are forming an opinion.
We have a long history of taking children from their parents in this country, often with disastrous consequences. Child services, particularly emergency intervention services, are under funded and due t the emotionally traumatic nature of the job there is a high staff turnover. Like most things that seem simple it is a complex and difficult area with no simple solutions. Powers that are brought in to remove children begging in the streets could also be abused in other circumstances. In order to actually improve the living conditions of these children a lot of money will have to be spent. If that is done the same people who complain that “they” should do something about “it” will complain that they” are wasting tax payers’ money on scum bags.


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## nlgbbbblth (5 Aug 2007)

Gordanus said:


> Why not give your money to a charity?



I do. Via a work charity fund. Employer matches employee donations.

I resent being coerced by Concern / Oxfam / [insert] 'volunteers'.


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## Bubbly Scot (5 Aug 2007)

My hubby saw two fighting for their "patch" at the Luas stop in Stillorgan the other week. There's a woman who always sits outside the local post office as well, right on the step and she always manages to make pleading eye contact.
I don't give to beggars but years ago I saw a guy trying to build a cigarette out of butts he'd picked up. I stopped and offered him a cig, smoked one with him and when I left, I "forgot" my cigarette packet.

Mind you, I know what's it's like to want a cig!


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## Purple (5 Aug 2007)

Yorky said:


> Are you a member of the upper or lower house, Purple?


Neither, couldn't take the pay cut


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## ClubMan (5 Aug 2007)

I'd never seen the fake baby (doll) tightly wrapped up in a blanket beggar trick until this evening in the _Bohemian House, Phibsboro_.


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## z108 (6 Aug 2007)

Anyone who brings their child out to beg is corrupting a minor. Kids belong in school. Not being taught tricks by a 'Fagin' type character.
Lock up the corrupting abusers and ideally give the kids the chance in life they deserve. When a crime is still committed, many kids live without their parents because those parents are in jail for other offences and reasons. Theres only one class of criminal in my view. Having kids doesnt mean they should not be locked up for a premeditated wrongful illegal act. We can still punish the parents and give the kids a better chance if the political will is there. I ve seen parents pimping their kids as beggars and shouting at them for not earning enough money. Living in the city centre its a common sight around Grafton Street. It takes all my self restraint not to jump in there and lose my temper at these so called parents.


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## Bubbly Scot (6 Aug 2007)

Be glad we're not in the likes of Bangladesh where kids are sometimes deliberately crippled so they can make more money begging.


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## Plek Trum (9 Aug 2007)

Bubbly Scot said:


> Be glad we're not in the likes of Bangladesh where kids are sometimes deliberately crippled so they can make more money begging.


 
Please tell me thats not true?...

In Cork recently at an ATM and there was a young man, without shoes, rocking back and forth on the ground with a sign (poorly written) _'no english.. cripple.. please help'._   I presumed he was a non-national from his clothes.  Anyway, my friends and I all dropped him some cash (guilt money yes.. we were heading out for the night).  Later the very same night, we were in a small bar when low and behold in walks the very same guy - (and before someone says it, yes, he had shoes on)!   

He went straight up to the counter and asks the barman if he would excahnge his 'change' for notes. We couldn't believe it - the 3 of us left our table and went up to him and demanded our money back, just loudly enough to embarrass him and let others in on his scam.  A very flustered man handed us our money back and scarpered out the door....


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## shootingstar (9 Aug 2007)

Plek Trum said:


> Please tell me thats not true?...
> 
> In Cork recently at an ATM and there was a young man, without shoes, rocking back and forth on the ground with a sign (poorly written) _'no english.. cripple.. please help'._   I presumed he was a non-national from his clothes.  Anyway, my friends and I all dropped him some cash (guilt money yes.. we were heading out for the night).  Later the very same night, we were in a small bar when low and behold in walks the very same guy - (and before someone says it, yes, he had shoes on)!
> 
> He went straight up to the counter and asks the barman if he would excahnge his 'change' for notes. We couldn't believe it - the 3 of us left our table and went up to him and demanded our money back, just loudly enough to embarrass him and let others in on his scam.  A very flustered man handed us our money back and scarpered out the door....



hes been around for a long time. I noticed the gardai moving him on one day from Merchants Quay, and he said something to them in foreign and got up and walked away !! Cripple me This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language!!


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## Caveat (9 Aug 2007)

Plek Trum said:


> Please tell me thats not true?...


 
If you mean the deliberate crippling/disfigurement by parents, unfortunately yes, this is true - have heard it many times.  A friend who spent time in India says that this practice is not uncommon.


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## Bubbly Scot (10 Aug 2007)

Yes, sadly Caveat is right. I spent some time in Bangladesh and was told of this practise. I saw many, many children and adults with horrifying injuries. It affected me greatly but the people I was with (locals) were fairly nonplussed by it. That, however is a whole other story.


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## Sn@kebite (11 Aug 2007)

Bubbly Scot said:


> Be glad we're not in the likes of Bangladesh where kids are sometimes deliberately crippled so they can make more money begging.


 Tell me you accidentally put the word 'deliberately' in your post. Why would they do that????


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## Purple (11 Aug 2007)

It was common in Europe in the middle ages to cripple children and sell them to freak shows.


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## z108 (11 Aug 2007)

Purple said:


> It was common in Europe in the middle ages to cripple children and sell them to freak shows.



Assuming this is true, should I deduce that humanity is doomed and sick or was starvation and a much worse life the only alternative to such a career as a cripple ?


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## Gordanus (11 Aug 2007)

>Assuming this is true, should I deduce that humanity is doomed and sick or was starvation and a much worse life the only alternative to such a career as a cripple ?<

Cripples get more money than able-bodied beggars.

>In Cork recently at an ATM and there was a young man, without shoes, rocking back and forth on the ground with a sign (poorly written) 'no english.. cripple.. please help'. I presumed he was a non-national from his clothes. Anyway, my friends and I all dropped him some cash (guilt money yes.. we were heading out for the night). Later the very same night, we were in a small bar when low and behold in walks the very same guy - (and before someone says it, yes, he had shoes on)!<

>How much would you think a beggar in a busy spot in the capital actually takes in if they were doing it 9-5 mon-fri?<

(Sorry , still can't figure the multiquote)


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## Sn@kebite (11 Aug 2007)

Gordanus said:


> Cripples get more money than able-bodied beggars.


I understand that. Just thought it was a bit extreme to do it to your own kids.


Gordanus said:


> (Sorry , still can't figure the multiquote)


Just click the "+ button. The one after the 'quote' button. If you click on the "+ button on many ppl's posts then click 'post reply' you will quote all the users' posts whom you've selected.


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## Purple (11 Aug 2007)

sign said:


> Assuming this is true, should I deduce that humanity is doomed and sick or was starvation and a much worse life the only alternative to such a career as a cripple ?



They were street children and/or orphans who were kidnapped or sold. Their owners were quite skilled at disfiguring them, knowing how to break and reset bones in order to produce the most horrific results. The young adults that were sold to freak shows were usually so mentally traumatised that they were irreparably damaged psychologically.
If anyone has children think of one of them being taken at two or three and being exposed to relentless cruelty and physical suffering for years 'till they are mentally and physically unrecognisable and the shattered shell of what they could have been is sold as a grotesque curio.
That's one of the many depraved things we are capable of.


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## annR (13 Aug 2007)

At the weekend I saw a guy begging opposite break for the border.  He had a decent waterproof hill walking type coat on him, spectacles, looked very alert and healthy, was even sitting up straight.  He looked so normal I was astounded.


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## boaber (14 Aug 2007)

annR said:


> At the weekend I saw a guy begging opposite break for the border.  He had a decent waterproof hill walking type coat on him, spectacles, looked very alert and healthy, was even sitting up straight.  He looked so normal I was astounded.



I wonder if this is the same guy I seen on Friday night at the ATM outside BFTB.  He was sitting on the ground with a bottle of vodka in his hand!

Mmm let me see, will I give you money so that you can go off and buy more booze???...eerrr NO!


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## Sn@kebite (14 Aug 2007)

annR said:


> At the weekend I saw a guy begging opposite break for the border.  He had a decent waterproof hill walking type coat on him, spectacles, looked very alert and healthy, was even sitting up straight.  He looked so normal I was astounded.


I'm sure some settled people beg too. Even if they work, after all, it is free money.


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## Jock04 (14 Aug 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> Tell me you accidentally put the word 'deliberately' in your post. Why would they do that????


 

Sadly, it does seem to happen.

First time I heard about it was maybe 15 years ago in Zante, the waiter wouldn't let me give money to a beggar with a crippled child, he told me they were Albanians who thought nothing of crippling their child to raise the sympathy factor. Found it a bit hard to believe at the time, but heard the same thing several times since, in different countries.


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## Gordanus (15 Aug 2007)

Sn@kebite said:


> I'm sure some settled people beg too. Even if they work, after all, it is free money.



Any AAMer want to try it for a couple of hours?  See how much they can get? (proceeds to be donated to charity, of course!)


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## bskinti (15 Aug 2007)

Is it not still against the law in this country to beg, A non-national woman and child has been fined in arklow and Gorey for begging last year, She has since moved on to other towns but is still at it,and she is picked up in the evenings in an almost new van. I believe I heard of a man from somewhere near blackrock who challenged the Constitution about vagrancy recently but not sure of the outcome, but last year it was certainly against the law to beg in Ireland.


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## Caveat (16 Aug 2007)

Gordanus said:


> Any AAMer want to try it for a couple of hours? See how much they can get? (proceeds to be donated to charity, of course!)


 
I have to admit that I have actually done it (for a laugh/experiment) years ago, as a drunk student.  I made about £3 (punt) in about half an hour if I remember


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## Gordanus (16 Aug 2007)

Caveat said:


> I have to admit that I have actually done it (for a laugh/experiment) years ago, as a drunk student.  I made about £3 (punt) in about half an hour if I remember



Years ago = at least 10; add on rate of inflation ...... Sorry head done in.  I'll guess E50, which would be 100 per hour?  A lot more than I get paid!


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