# Accountant taking the mick?



## shouldknow (20 Nov 2009)

I've just had a conversation with my employer. She's foreign, and managing a start-up company.

Basically, I think her accountant is taking the mick. Doing a 'start your own business' course, she learned that employers needed to have a health and safety statement. She wrote to her accountant to verify this is the case. He wrote back one word - 'yes'.

For this email, and for supplying contact details for 2 people - a person to write a safety statement*, and a lawyer - he's issued an invoice for €1,200. Now, I'm no expert on accountancy, but this seems off the scale. Can anyone familiar with the field advise me on two things: Is the accountant having a laugh? and does this violate any codes of practice?

* this chap is seriously dodgy himself, which is how our conversation took place.


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## Padraigb (20 Nov 2009)

That seems so off-the-wall that I have to wonder.

Are you sure that the invoice is for the service you describe?


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## jack2009 (20 Nov 2009)

did she also get a bill from the lawyer and the person who wrote the safety statement?


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## DBRAN (20 Nov 2009)

Hi

I have to agree with Padraigb. 

Are you sure you are telling the whole extent of the work involved? What was detailed on the invoice itself?

Kind Regards

dbran


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## z107 (20 Nov 2009)

Why not just download one from the internet?

Here's one for the UK
 [broken link removed]


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## Graham_07 (20 Nov 2009)

Perhaps an itemised invoice would clarify. It is highly unlikely that the fee quoted was just for that. I have never heard of any professional charging for supplying contact details for other people.


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## mercman (20 Nov 2009)

OP, have your employer seek assistance from persons that are not going to tip her off. As others have stated a Health & Saftety statement can be downloaded from the WEb, and as for a kawyer, there are so many seeking work at the moment that she really does not have to pay a finders fee.


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## shouldknow (20 Nov 2009)

The invoice literally says 'management services' and €1,200. My blood is boiling.


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## Graham_07 (20 Nov 2009)

shouldknow said:


> The invoice literally says 'management services' and €1,200. My blood is boiling.


 
A specific breakdown of the "management services" into its specific components needs to be obtained before payment. The best tax minds in the country charge about €300-350 per hour. It's hardly likely that even if this gentleman came within that definition that it would take 3.5-4 hours to say "yes" in an email and provide 2 addresses. A face to face is necessary I think.


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## mercman (20 Nov 2009)

As well as looking for those already stated your boss would be better off seeking a new accountant.


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## viztopia (21 Nov 2009)

why did your employer go to the accountant looking for a h&s statement? i am an accountant and no one has ever asked me for one. if they did i would tell them this is not what i do and suggest they go elsewhere. the accountant would be the last person i would ask for a h&s statement. also why did your employer not agree a price for the h&s statement before they asked some one to do it? your employer wont be in business long with this carry on.


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## simplyjoe (23 Nov 2009)

My clients ask me all types of questions. If I cannot answer them myself I refer them to an other specialist. You cannot leave your client without an answer. I encourage my clients to ask me questions. I get a better feel for their business and indeed I often learn more myself. As I have previously stated people are foolish to allow this type of behaviour. Offer the accountant an opportunity to withdraw their bill. If not get a detailed breakdown. If still unhappy contact the accountants supervisory institute. If the accountant is not qualified learn from this story and get a qualified accountant. Get a detailed breakdown of his charges including his charge out rates and if an all inclusive fee is quoted find out exactly what is covered. Also in this technological advanced age dont pay Dublin prices unless you have to have a Dublin accountant.


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## Complainer (23 Nov 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Why not just download one from the internet?
> 
> Here's one for the UK
> [broken link removed]


Taking a UK template for a safety statement is not a great idea if you want be covered under Irish legislation.



mercman said:


> As others have stated a Health & Saftety statement can be downloaded from the WEb


A set of accounts can be downloaded from the web. Would you recommend that the accountant download any set of accounts and present them as relevant for your company?

You cannot download a safety statement for your business from the web. The web cannot competently assess the risks involved in your business.

But it does defintely sound like the original accountant is taking the mick.


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## Purple (23 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> You cannot download a safety statement for your business from the web. The web cannot competently assess the risks involved in your business.


Agreed, but you can download a template and full in the blanks.


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## onq (23 Nov 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Why not just download one from the internet?
> 
> Here's one for the UK
> [broken link removed]



Excellent - thanks for this.

ONQ.


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## onq (23 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> <snip>
> You cannot download a safety statement for your business from the web. The web cannot competently assess the risks involved in your business.
> <snip>



A well-integrated document is always useful and it gives you a form of baseline comparison.
I have seldom found UK documentation to be inadequate, just different.



ONQ.


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## Complainer (23 Nov 2009)

onq said:


> A well-integrated document is always useful and it gives you a form of baseline comparison.
> I have seldom found UK documentation to be inadequate, just different.


Would you use a UK template to assess whether an Irish building meets Irish building regs? Using a template safety statement is as valuable as using a template snag list or a template contract or a template business plan. If the person filling in the template doesn't understand what they are doing, the template does more harm than good.


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## censuspro (24 Nov 2009)

If the employer is using a Big 4 firm then €1200 sounds about right.


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## Graham_07 (24 Nov 2009)

shouldknow said:


> He wrote back one word - 'yes'.
> 
> For this email, and for supplying contact details for 2 people - a person to write a safety statement*, and a lawyer - he's issued an invoice for €1,200.


 


censuspro said:


> If the employer is using a Big 4 firm then €1200 sounds about right.


 
For what appears to be a one word email and 2 contact details?  If that's about right then I need to shut up shop and go work for a big 4 firm right away.


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## Setanta12 (24 Nov 2009)

I worked in a Big-4 firm. That would be considered outrageous even by them.


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## Bronte (24 Nov 2009)

The employer needs to go and speak to the accountant and query the bill.  She should bring you with her.  If she gets no satisfaction then she should write to the accountant demanding an itimised bill.  After that complain to the accountant's professional body and most important if all this is true she needs a new accountant once she has clarified everything is paid for and up to date re accounts etc


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## censuspro (25 Nov 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> For what appears to be a one word email and 2 contact details? If that's about right then I need to shut up shop and go work for a big 4 firm right away.


 
In know for a fact that in one Big 4 firm, a TR2 VAT registration costs €2500 plus VAT.


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## censuspro (25 Nov 2009)

Situations like these emphasise the importance of a letter of engagement.


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## MOB (25 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> Would you use a UK template to assess whether an Irish building meets Irish building regs? Using a template safety statement is as valuable as using a template snag list or a template contract or a template business plan. If the person filling in the template doesn't understand what they are doing, the template does more harm than good.



My attitude to this stuff may be slightly different but I would always examine products from larger ( and comparable) markets rather than go with something developed exclusively for Ireland.  We are a very small market.  This has implications for quality and price.  An 'industry standard' product developed in USA or UK is likely to be more comprehensive, better quality and cheaper than something developed specifically for the Irish market.   Of course you need to be alert to areas where rules differ - but by and large, this approach has worked well for me.  

Mind you, I do remember when we were building our house ( many years ago) that the Irish standard for sizing roofing timbers was different to the UK standard:- if I recall correctly, our spec. for battens is slightly more robust than theirs ( because we get stormier weather), which came as a surprise to my builder.  The front of our roof has UK spec. battens and the back of our roof has Irish spec.  Neither has given trouble.

Incidentally, I have helped a number of small builder clients in developing safety statements.  My experience is that the HSA inspectors like to see a bulky document - even though it should be obvious that no self employed brickie is going to read, much less be willing to retain any familiarity with, a 20-30 page document ( I am not being patronising - this is just a reality).  I have always tried to develop a safety statement that stands a good chance of actually being used, which does mean trying to stick to a short, very plain-english format.   When clients have been inspected I have always got (via client) slightly snotty feedback to the effect that 'it's very lean - but it will do'.   Unfortunately, it is also my experience is that builders who employ external safety consultant to come in periodically and maintain (or as I call it 'dicky up') their safety documentation are told that they are 'doing it the right way' - something with which I fundamentally disagree.


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## Graham_07 (25 Nov 2009)

censuspro said:


> In know for a fact that in one Big 4 firm, a TR2 VAT registration costs €2500 plus VAT.


 

Given that a TR2 , with all the information to hand, takes approx. 20-30 mins max to complete and post, this is even worse than the OP's problem. As has been said so many times on AAM, people need to ask the fees / prices of services and goods first.


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## Complainer (25 Nov 2009)

MOB said:


> My attitude to this stuff may be slightly different but I would always examine products from larger ( and comparable) markets rather than go with something developed exclusively for Ireland.  We are a very small market.  This has implications for quality and price.  An 'industry standard' product developed in USA or UK is likely to be more comprehensive, better quality and cheaper than something developed specifically for the Irish market.   Of course you need to be alert to areas where rules differ - but by and large, this approach has worked well for me.
> 
> Mind you, I do remember when we were building our house ( many years ago) that the Irish standard for sizing roofing timbers was different to the UK standard:- if I recall correctly, our spec. for battens is slightly more robust than theirs ( because we get stormier weather), which came as a surprise to my builder.  The front of our roof has UK spec. battens and the back of our roof has Irish spec.  Neither has given trouble.


I would just be fairly worried about the chances of someone who didn't know of the legal requirement for a safety statement taking a UK or US template and producing something effective.



MOB said:


> Incidentally, I have helped a number of small builder clients in developing safety statements. My experience is that the HSA inspectors like to see a bulky document - even though it should be obvious that no self employed brickie is going to read, much less be willing to retain any familiarity with, a 20-30 page document ( I am not being patronising - this is just a reality). I have always tried to develop a safety statement that stands a good chance of actually being used, which does mean trying to stick to a short, very plain-english format. When clients have been inspected I have always got (via client) slightly snotty feedback to the effect that 'it's very lean - but it will do'. Unfortunately, it is also my experience is that builders who employ external safety consultant to come in periodically and maintain (or as I call it 'dicky up') their safety documentation are told that they are 'doing it the right way' - something with which I fundamentally disagree.



It is very dissapointing if HSA are looking for quantity over quality. A document developed by someone with an indepth understanding of the business will be far more productive than the usual consultants bumpf.


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## DBK100 (30 Nov 2009)

Complainer said:


> Would you use a UK template to assess whether an Irish building meets Irish building regs?



Probably would not be a bad idea given that our regulations when introduced were copied practically verbatim from the UK! They also have a properly functioning system to inspect & enforce them. That's something we could really use.


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## censuspro (14 Dec 2009)

Some payroll software has build in health and safety templates. You could use one of those.


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## onq (14 Dec 2009)

Complainer said:


> Would you use a UK template to assess whether an Irish building meets Irish building regs? Using a template safety statement is as valuable as using a template snag list or a template contract or a template business plan. If the person filling in the template doesn't understand what they are doing, the template does more harm than good.



We don't disagree, and when I wrote "basis" I meant just that - not the end product, a worked example of the kind of document required.

However in relation to UK law in general, Irish law seems to share a lot of principles with it and while I agree in principle, you may find commonwealth law cited in UK cases and vice versa and Irish law citing law in other jurisdictions.

I know two Irish barristers who emigrated to practice in London.

The architectural profession has numerous examples of people who are both RIAI and RIBA qualified.

I think the jurisdictions and legal framework are similar enough to facilitate learning from one another.

When I'm doing my Fire Certs I still use the Scottish Regs worked examples for Spread Of Flame calculations, for example.

ONQ.


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## onq (14 Dec 2009)

MOB said:


> My attitude to this stuff may be slightly different but I would always examine products from larger ( and comparable) markets rather than go with something developed exclusively for Ireland.  We are a very small market.  This has implications for quality and price.  An 'industry standard' product developed in USA or UK is likely to be more comprehensive, better quality and cheaper than something developed specifically for the Irish market.   Of course you need to be alert to areas where rules differ - but by and large, this approach has worked well for me.
> 
> Mind you, I do remember when we were building our house ( many years ago) that the Irish standard for sizing roofing timbers was different to the UK standard:- if I recall correctly, our spec. for battens is slightly more robust than theirs ( because we get stormier weather), which came as a surprise to my builder.  The front of our roof has UK spec. battens and the back of our roof has Irish spec.  Neither has given trouble.
> 
> Incidentally, I have helped a number of small builder clients in developing safety statements.  My experience is that the HSA inspectors like to see a bulky document - even though it should be obvious that no self employed brickie is going to read, much less be willing to retain any familiarity with, a 20-30 page document ( I am not being patronising - this is just a reality).  I have always tried to develop a safety statement that stands a good chance of actually being used, which does mean trying to stick to a short, very plain-english format.   When clients have been inspected I have always got (via client) slightly snotty feedback to the effect that 'it's very lean - but it will do'.   Unfortunately, it is also my experience is that builders who employ external safety consultant to come in periodically and maintain (or as I call it 'dicky up') their safety documentation are told that they are 'doing it the right way' - something with which I fundamentally disagree.



+1

Its a pleasure to read thsi level headed approach.

Its less than help to imagine that a main contractor runs his site by having endless assessments of risk prior to carrying out work.

Most operatives are relatively experienced and the few nutters who like to take risks are quickly wpotted and weeded out or educated.

The correct approach to my mind is to really focus the men's minds on safeyt issues by making sure the 


each of them has the appropriate safe site pass for the work they're doing,
people using machinery are "minded" by others and
no-one is using ladders to work from at heights.

These three simple steps are the most effective in preventing accidents in my opinion.

Far more so than thinking personnel are going to read any preliminary  safety statement that runs to more than say two pages.

FWIW

ONQ.


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## Complainer (14 Dec 2009)

onq said:


> Far more so than thinking personnel are going to read any preliminary  safety statement that runs to more than say two pages.


The employer needs to ensure that the staff/contractors on-site understand his safety policy & procedures. If reading the safety statement is not an option (and I agree that it would not be an option in many cases for a range of reasons - literacy, language etc), then he needs to find other ways to communicate on this. He cannot cop-out on this just because it is not easy.


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## Paddyboy0576 (14 Dec 2009)

a safety statement can be done these days for 300 euro. that bill is rubbish.....shop around and ull find the true cost of safety statements


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## John Conlon (6 Jan 2010)

I suggest getting a detailed breakdown of management services.

On the point of downloading a safety statement, i would advise caution. 
Downloaded safety statements are generic. You would need to adapt thenm to your business and premises e.g particular hazards e.g. steps.
The generic statement will not cater for you. You will not have the expertise to amend properly.
Finally, an accident could open you up to prosecution, insurance problems.

I am an accountant who worked in an industry where safety was an important issue.

John Conlon

[broken link removed]


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## babaduck (6 Jan 2010)

This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, I should have been an accountant!!


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## Graham_07 (7 Jan 2010)

babaduck said:


> This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, I should have been an accountant!!


 
Not all accountants would charge the fees quoted by the OP.


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