# Best Tv Set Top Cable Box?



## chippy (18 Jan 2009)

Hi gang,i am looking for any advice on the best Set Top Cable Box on the Market?Eurovox look like a good make or are  all the makes pretty similiar? Any advice appreciated. Chippy


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## jhegarty (18 Jan 2009)

The only legal choice is the one NTL provide.


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## Guest128 (18 Jan 2009)

The Box, Super is what youre after...


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## colm (18 Jan 2009)

jhegarty said:


> The only legal choice is the one NTL provide.


 
Not if your only viewing free to air stations.


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## jhegarty (18 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Not if your only viewing free to air stations.




There is no free to air on cable. And it's a criminal offense to use any non ntl box on their network.


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## colm (18 Jan 2009)

There is free to air on Cable once you pay the basic subscription.
Either that or B&Q are also breaking the law.
Are you saying it is illegal to connect a TIVO type device to the NTL network?
If it is Illegal to connect any other equipment to the Network where is it stated in the T&C?
Also how will they handle this:
_From autumn 2009, a free-to-air Digital terrestrial TV (DTT) service providing access to the existing national TV channels and some new Irish TV channels will be launched in Ireland._
_*Prior to the launch it is expected that there will be a range of suitable DTT receivers on the market. Please ask your retailer for further information. *_
Hmmmmmm These are not NTL boxs. Are RTE also breaking the Law??
_[broken link removed]_


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## jhegarty (19 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> There is free to air on Cable once you pay the basic subscription.
> Either that or B&Q are also breaking the law.
> Are you saying it is illegal to connect a TIVO type device to the NTL network?
> If it is Illegal to connect any other equipment to the Network where is it stated in the T&C?
> ...



DTT are not cable boxes. They are for digital tv over the air , from an aerial.


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

there are various set top boxes available also. Could you please point me to where in NTLs T&Cs it states no other equipment can be connected to their network. I read them & could not see anything


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## AlbacoreA (19 Jan 2009)

Your confusing cable boxes with FTA satellite boxes.


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> Your confusing cable boxes with FTA satellite boxes.


 
No I am not. Both are available. The point I am trying to make is that jhegerty's statement


> it's a criminal offense to use *any non ntl* box on their network.


Is incorrect.
If I use a Eurovox or Starview with out the EMU key turned on I am simply recieving the stations I have paid for with my basic subscription.
How is that illegal?


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## AlbacoreA (19 Jan 2009)

Seems pretty clear here
http://www.upc.ie/piracy/


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

So taking that as the Law is it now Illegal to connect my DVR to the cable?
Why is there cable connections on DVRs?
This is a bit like the rules telecom tried to enforce years ago saying you must buy a phone off them if you wish to use their service. We all know where that ended up.


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## AlbacoreA (19 Jan 2009)

Legality and enforcement are kinda different issues though.

Thinking of going freesat for UK channels, and DTT for the Irish ones myself.


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> Legality and enforcement are kinda different issues though.


Also the law & a companys TOS are 2 different things, 
I have had NTL rep in my house & he never said anything about my extra equipment connected to their network


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## Towger (19 Jan 2009)

> How do I know if I am in possession of an illicit device?
> All UPC equipment is clearly branded (UPC, chorus, ntl). If you are in procession of equipment or sourced it from anyone other than UPC you are breaking the law.


 
With those rules it is illegal to plug a TV into the cable to get the analogue signal, or own my mobile phone.

As far as I am concerned, if UPC/NTL want a secure system they should invest in a better encryption system and adding HD at the some time would not go a miss. I actually thought they were doing this when the DVR boxes came out a year or so ago. 


Disclaimer:
Former NTL customer who dumped them for SKY, due to being told multiple lies by customer services. 
If anyone from NTL is reading this: You owe me money back from then you eventually cancelled my service. I even have a statement from you to prove it!


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> With those rules it is illegal to plug a TV into the cable to get the analogue signal,


 
Exactly my point .. The OP simply asked about a good brand of Set Top Box, this could be A DVR an Anolouge reciever or numerous other types of equipment. But straight away we get the  blunt response
*The only legal choice is the one NTL provide.* .

The information on this site is generally good except for when the morality police jump in .
Also I would like to point out that A Starview Box or similar can be used to recieve numerous radio stations broadcast over the NTL network.
Nothing illegal about receiving radio stations I hope. Last time I checked FM 104 & Q102 were subscription free.


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## jhegarty (19 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Also the law & a companys TOS are 2 different things,
> I have had NTL rep in my house & he never said anything about my extra equipment connected to their network




Did you read the link that lists the acts that involved. It is illegal , criminal law not civil.


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## AlbacoreA (19 Jan 2009)

A Set Top Box isn't a DVR. They are not one and the same. You asked specifically about a "Set Top Cable Box" aka Eurovox. Thats very specific. Its got nothing to do with DTT either. Dunno where you got that idea. 

The law and terms and conditions are one thing. Lack of an enforcement is another. UPC/NTL have never made much sense the way they operate. You asked a specific question you got a specific answer.

Maybe you should get onto UPC and point out the gaps in their policies, re: connecting TV's or DVR's to the analogue signal and the radio service.


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## BRICKTOP (19 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Exactly my point .. The OP simply asked about a good brand of Set Top Box, this could be A DVR an Anolouge reciever or numerous other types of equipment. But straight away we get the blunt response
> *The only legal choice is the one NTL provide.* .
> 
> The information on this site is generally good except for when the morality police jump in .
> ...


 
Colm

If you pay NTL for the analogue signal and that's all you view, thats fine. But if you connect a "dodgy" digital box purchased over the internet or in a pub car park (e.g. starview etc) to view the digital channels (which come in on the same cable), this is a criminal offence. This is clearly detailed on the back of your NTL bill and on the UPC website. The fact that NTL are rubbish and offer a poor service has nothing to do with it, it is a criminal act plain and simple.


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

jhegarty said:


> Did you read the link that lists the acts that involved. It is illegal , criminal law not civil.


 

_Access to our services via any device other than what has been installed contractually by the company is illegal_
Thats the wording. As NTL do not provide you with a TV to access their services how are you supposed to do it legally?


jhegarty said:


> Colm
> 
> If you pay NTL for the analogue signal and that's all you view, thats fine. But if you connect a "dodgy" digital box purchased over the internet or in a pub car park (e.g. starview etc) to view the digital channels (which come in on the same cable), this is a criminal offence. This is clearly detailed on the back of your NTL bill and on the UPC website. The fact that NTL are rubbish and offer a poor service has nothing to do with it, it is a criminal act plain and simple.


*I agree 100%*
To reiterate yes ofcourse it is illegal to use any service to which you are not entitled. I never claimed otherwise. What I was arguing is it can not be illegal to connect any equipment just because NTL did not provide it.
Same way as you can connect an FM reciever to the cable for FM reception. But what NTL are claiming with the above statement is you can not connect a TV,A DVR or any other form of reciever to their network because it has not been installed contractually by the company... Utter nonsense.


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## AlbacoreA (19 Jan 2009)

Legally you can't use the service UPC provide, because you can't attach anything to it. Classic isn't it! Sadly typical of UPC/NTL.


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## Towger (19 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> Legally you can't use the service UPC provide, because you can't attach anything to it. Classic isn't it! Sadly typical of UPC/NTL.


 
To make matters more interesting, for years Cablelink / RTE Relays were illegally rebroadcasting BBC1/2, UTV and C4.


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## TarfHead (19 Jan 2009)

News story from last month.

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news...ital-tv-pirates-to-pay-six-figure-sum-to-upc/

I would assume that attaching a digital decoder to ntl's cable, other than ntl's own offering, is illegal.


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

Attaching a decoder or any other device to recieve something for which you have not paid for, or are not entitled to recive is illegal.
Attaching  equipment to recive something you have paid for can not be illegal.
You dont hear sky saying you have to use a Sky Digibox.


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## TarfHead (19 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Attaching a decoder or any other device to recieve something for which you have not paid for, or are not entitled to recive is illegal.
> Attaching equipment to recive something you have paid for can not be illegal.
> You dont hear sky saying you have to use a Sky Digibox.


 
My understanding of what upc provides, via cable, is an analog feed and a digital feed. If you want to use the digital feed, you pay upc for a decoder.

If you're suggesting buying an off-the-shelf decoder to decode the upc digital feed, then that would, IMHO, be illegal.

I am unclear what value an off-the-shelf decoder would offer you for reading the upc analog feed, for which you are paying an subscription.


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

TarfHead said:


> If you're suggesting buying an off-the-shelf decoder to decode the upc digital feed, then that would, IMHO, be illegal.


I am not suggesting that..
That would be illegal ofcourse!


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## TarfHead (19 Jan 2009)

colm said:
			
		

> If I use a Eurovox or Starview with out the EMU key turned on I am simply recieving the stations I have paid for with my basic subscription.


 


colm said:


> Attaching equipment to recive something you have paid for can not be illegal.


 


			
				TarfHead said:
			
		

> If you're suggesting buying an off-the-shelf decoder to decode the upc digital feed, then that would, IMHO, be illegal.


 


colm said:


> I am not suggesting that..
> That would be illegal ofcourse!


 
I'm confused  ? What was the question ?


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

The OP was asking about the best type of box to buy. But the morality police took over.
I was simply trying to point out that it is not illegal to connect equipment to the NTL network if you are only recieving what you are entitled to


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## TarfHead (19 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> The OP was asking about the best type of box to buy. But the morality police took over.
> I was simply trying to point out that it is not illegal to connect equipment to the NTL network if you are only recieving what you are entitled to


 
It's not a question of morality. You are entitled to use the upc digital signal if you have paid for the service. If you have done that, why use a 3rd party decoder, if not to access something for which you have not paid, i.e. not entitled to ?

I have a subscription to upc for their digital service. I could get a Starview box to access SKY Sports or Movies, but that would be illegal as I have not paid upc for access.

If you have a different point, then I'm not getting it  !


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

[sigh]
I have agreed all along it is illegal to recieve channels you have not paid for or are not entitled to. 
The only thing I am arguing was people saying outright its illegal to connect anything to the Network except an NTL box.
There is nothing illegal about a digital reciever itself. Whats illegal is the modded software which allows the encrytion to be turned on & off.
My point is the following statements are incorrect


> The only legal choice is the one NTL provide.


So If I have paid for Digital service can I not use a different brand of decoder


> And it's a criminal offense to use any non ntl box on their network.


If this is true please state what law is being broken


> _Access to our services via any device other than what has been installed contractually by the company is illegal_


If this is true how can you connect your television, DVR  etc.


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## chippy (19 Jan 2009)

Well lads,i certainly opened up a hornets nest here i think.My question is still unanswered by the way.Chippy


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

Think you better clarify if you want to do something illegal or not   LOL


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## AlbacoreA (19 Jan 2009)

Morality has nothing to do with. Its very simple. Theres 2 different points. People are using terms incorrectly which is why ye are getting mixed up. So pay a bit more attention to how you phrase things will you. 

1) It illegal in law to bypass encyption.

2) Its against UPC terms of contact to use a non UPC/NTL box to access their services. Even if you've paid for for those services. 

UPC/NTL usually go heavy against any websites/forums talking about it. Boards for example doesn't allow it on their site. They may even ban people talking about it. UPC seem to spend more time talking about that, than actually fixing their problems, and getting decent boxes of their own. Their DVR is painfully slow for example. But its their network and you have to abide by their rules. No one believes you are going to get a non NTL DVR and listen to the radio. Get a grip. You won't sell it to a judge either.


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## jhegarty (19 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> So If I have paid for Digital service can I not use a different brand of decoder



No , you can not. There is no NTL "card" to legally use a third party box. That is difference with sky, they give you a card that can legally by used in other boxes.



colm said:


> If this is true please state what law is being broken





Broadcasting Act 1990 - Section 9, 10 and 11
Copyright and Related Acts 2000 - Section 372
EC (Conditional Access) Regulations, 2000 (SI 357 of 2000) - Section 3




colm said:


> If this is true how can you connect your television, DVR  etc.



Your analogue tv does not decode a digital signal. If it did then it would be illegal.


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## colm (19 Jan 2009)

jhegarty said:


> No , you can not. There is no NTL "card" to legally use a third party box. That is difference with sky, they give you a card that can legally by used in other boxes.


*False!!!* Sky cards are matched to a single box. The extra card is an extra subsidised subscription
You are however allowed use any box to recieve free to air stations.




jhegarty said:


> Broadcasting Act 1990 - Section 9, 10 and 11
> Copyright and Related Acts 2000 - Section 372
> EC (Conditional Access) Regulations, 2000 (SI 357 of 2000) - Section 3


Where in that act does it state you must use NTL equipment



jhegarty said:


> Your analogue tv does not decode a digital signal. If it did then it would be illegal.


Irrelevant ! since NTL are claiming


> _Access to our services_ *via any device* _other than what has been installed contractually by the company is illegal_


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## AlbacoreA (19 Jan 2009)

jhegarty said:


> ...Your analogue tv does not decode a digital signal. If it did then it would be illegal.


 
The terms and conditions don't allow analogue equipment either. Which is funny. Though obviously its aimed at the digital boxes. Especially the encrypted premium channels.


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## AlbacoreA (19 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> *False!!!* Sky cards are matched to a single box. The extra card is an extra subsidised subscription
> You are however allowed use any box to recieve free to air stations.


 
This is two seperate issues isn't it.

Sky content can be viewed via a sky card in any box.
FTA content can be viewed without a card. Because its nothing to do with Sky. 




colm said:


> Where in that act does it state you must use NTL equipment


 
Did you not read my comment earlier. That is covered by their terms and conditions.


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## jhegarty (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> *False!!!* Sky cards are matched to a single box. The extra card is an extra subsidised subscription
> You are however allowed use any box to recieve free to air stations.


 
I am sorry, but you don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

Sky cards are only locked to one box for movies and sport.  There are legal 3rd party boxes to watch a sky subscription channel with a valid sky card.


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## colm (20 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> This is two seperate issues isn't it.


I agree but jhegerty broght it up


AlbacoreA said:


> FTA content can be viewed without a card


Exactly what I am trying to say all along. FTA content can be viewed using any equipment. Legally the same applies to the NTL network



> Did you not read my comment earlier. That is covered by their terms and conditions.


I asked where in the act, not the T&Cs. The act is Law T&Cs do not make something illegal



jhegarty said:


> I am sorry, but you don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.
> 
> Sky cards are only locked to one box for movies and sport. There are legal 3rd party boxes to watch a sky subscription channel with a valid sky card.


You are contridicting yourself here channels on Sky are either FTA or subscription channels. So it seems you agree that FTA channels are legally viewable on Sky via 3rd party equipment, so why would the same be illegal on the NTL network???? {confused}


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## AlbacoreA (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> I agree but jhegerty broght it up


 
Then why keeping repeating stuff?



colm said:


> Exactly what I am trying to say all along. FTA content can be viewed using any equipment. Legally the same applies to the NTL network


 
No because the NTL network. The physical cable, is NOT FTA. Can you get it without ANY NTL equipment. No you need their cable, their network. Therefore its not FTA.



colm said:


> I asked where in the act, not the T&Cs. The act is Law T&Cs do not make something illegal


 
Semantics. End of the day you're not allowed to do it. |You keeping using illegal/legal incorrectly too.



colm said:


> You are contridicting yourself here channels on Sky are either FTA or subscription channels. So it seems you agree that FTA channels are legally viewable on Sky via 3rd party equipment, so why would the same be illegal on the NTL network???? {confused}


 
You are not watching them on Sky's network.
You are watching then via NTL network.

Its not illegal it breaks the T&C's.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Jan 2009)

jhegarty said:


> There is no free to air on cable.


 
End of.


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## colm (20 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> No because the NTL network. The physical cable, is NOT FTA. Can you get it without ANY NTL equipment. No you need their cable, their network. Therefore its not FTA.


Sorry FTA may be the wrong phrase. By FTA what I mean is stations you have paid for and are entitled to view, either free or trough basic subscription.
What I am trying to convey from the start is it is NTLs T&Cs that say you can't connect any equipmet to their network. This does not make it illegal.



AlbacoreA said:


> End of the day you're not allowed to do it.


 As I,ve already said taking that as law then you are not allowed connect a TV , a DVR, or even a signal booster to the network.


AlbacoreA said:


> Its not illegal it breaks the T&C's.


Exactly!!!! Therfore


> The only *legal *choice is the one NTL provide


is not correct.


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## jhegarty (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Sorry FTA may be the wrong phrase. By FTA what I mean is stations you have paid for and are entitled to view, either free or trough basic subscription.
> What I am trying to convey from the start is it is NTLs T&Cs that say you can't connect any equipmet to their network. This does not make it illegal.
> 
> As I,ve already said taking that as law then you are not allowed connect a TV , a DVR, or even a signal booster to the network.
> ...



But you either have a box which breaks ntl's encryption or you don't. There is no digital box (on cable) that only shows the channels you paid for. 


The very big difference between sky and ntl is that ntl have a network, sky does not. 

Sky only rent space an a satellite, ntl own the cable going into your house. 

This is why NTL can legally force you to use thier box , but sky can not.


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## colm (20 Jan 2009)

jhegarty said:


> But you either have a box which breaks ntl's encryption or you don't. There is no digital box (on cable) that only shows the channels you paid for.


There is. So if this box is not decoding any subscription channels how is it illegal?


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## AlbacoreA (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Sorry FTA may be the wrong phrase. By FTA what I mean is stations you have paid for and are entitled to view, either free or trough basic subscription.


 
For petes sake. Thats not FTA. Whats the point of trying to talk about this if you don't even know the basic terms. 



colm said:


> What I am trying to convey from the start is it is NTLs T&Cs that say you can't connect any equipmet to their network. This does not make it illegal.
> 
> As I,ve already said taking that as law then you are not allowed connect a TV , a DVR, or even a signal booster to the network.


 
This is last time I'm saying it because you just aren't listening. 

Anything that decrypts a signal is illegal. 
Anything else is against their T&C's. 

It doesn't matter anyway. You can't buy a box that doesn't decrypt. You can't buy a set top box that isn't illegal to use on their network. Lets be clear this thread is about set top boxes. Even if you don't know what that means. Don't bother with the line, that you'll use the box and not use the decrypt functionality. Even if it was true, no one is going to believe that. Even assuming you did that its still against their T&C's. So you can't use them. 

Ok their, T&C is rubbish. It doesn't cater for anything connecting to the analogue signal. But its obvious this thread is not about analogue equipment. UPC/NTL don't care about that, they are turning it off soon. So stop going on about it.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Jan 2009)

If you want free TV, then you buy a FTA satellite kit, and get an ariel for the Irish stations. Thats it. No other way.


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## jhegarty (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> There is. So if this box is not decoding any subscription channels how is it illegal?




It wouldn't be illegal , just against their terms and conditions. 

But it would also be as much use as plugging a toaster into the back of your tv. It wouldn't show any station , weather you pay for them or not. You either break the encryption or your don't. 

There is no "i only hacked the channels I paid for".


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## colm (20 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> Anything that decrypts a signal is illegal.
> Anything else is against their T&C's.


Exactly ! thats what I have been saying all along


> You can't buy a box that doesn't decrypt.


Yes you can


> Don't bother with the line, that you'll use the box and not use the decrypt functionality. Even if it was true, no one is going to believe that.


To be clear. I don't want anything for free. I pay for the basic package & thats all I recieve. There are set top boxes that dont break the encryption. Why would you use such a box?? Maybe it has a DVR function maybe it has a HDD. Maybe you want it as a radio reciever to pipe music. The uses are endless, they are also irrelevant. There are also TVs now with a digital reciever, if you buy one of these & you only have an anolouge subscription is the Illegal? No, Is it breaking the T&Cs ? Yes.
So everyone in the country is breaking UPCs T&Cs .. Fact!!
Are all thos people breaking the law??? No.




AlbacoreA said:


> If you want free TV, then you buy a FTA satellite kit, and get an ariel for the Irish stations. Thats it. No other way.


100% correct As Ive stated I dont want anything for free..



jhegarty said:


> It wouldn't be illegal , just against their terms and conditions.
> 
> But it would also be as much use as plugging a toaster into the back of your tv.


There are numerous applications that would be usefull


> There is no "i only hacked the channels I paid for".


Ofcourse not. I never said there was.

To clarify my point for people who may not have read the whole thread.
I am not trying to justify illegally recieving channels.
If you recieve these channels without paying that is illegal & you are breaking the law.
Due to UPCs crazy T&Cs every one in the country is breaking those T&Cs, but they are not breaking the law. Therefore because there are other options and applications for which various set to boxes may be used, it is lnot fair to say


> The only legal choice is the one NTL provide.


and


> it's a criminal offense to use any non ntl box on their network.


Are incorrect statements.


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## jhegarty (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> There are set top boxes that dont break the encryption.



A box that doesn't break the encryption will show nothing. You will get a blank screen.

There is no FTA on cable.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Exactly ! thats what I have been saying all along


 
You've confused, misused, all sorts of terms, in this thread. FTA, DTT, Legal, Illegal, digital receiver. Used interchangeably which makes no sense. You are confused about the differences between digital cable, digital satellite, DTT, DVB-T, DVB-C etc. For example what do think a digital reciever is exactly? 

You also keep quoting posts which you already know to be incorrect. Why I have no idea. What non NTL digital set box box, with PVR for example, can you buy that doesn't functionality to decrypt the signal.


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## colm (20 Jan 2009)

2 Questions which will sum up all of this for you all?
Is an NTL box the only legal box you can connect to their network??????  
Legally the answer is no!!
Is it a criminal offence to use *any* non NTL box on their network ??
No it is not . 
It *is* a criminal offence to use equipment to break the encryption . I have said this all along.
All the rest is irrelevant. People are constantly presuming I am trying to use some equipment illegally. I am not!!
I am simply pointing out 2 statements which are not true.


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## Breaker (20 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> But its obvious this thread is not about analogue equipment. UPC/NTL don't care about that, they are turning it off soon. So stop going on about it.


 
when are they actually turning analogue off by the way? is there a date set?


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## colm (20 Jan 2009)

The EU has recommended 2012 as a switch-off date for analogue transmission


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## jhegarty (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> 2 Questions which will sum up all of this for you all?
> Is an NTL box the only legal box you can connect to their network??????
> Legally the answer is no!!
> Is it a criminal offence to use *any* non NTL box on their network ??
> ...




So what exactly would this box that doesn't break the encryption do ?


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## AlbacoreA (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> 2 Questions which will sum up all of this for you all?
> Is an NTL box the only legal box you can connect to their network??????
> Legally the answer is no!!
> Is it a criminal offence to use *any* non NTL box on their network ??
> ...


 
Does it matter if its criminal. You'd be in breech of contract. Is that irrelevant.

Answer the question. 

Whats a digital receiver?
What NTL compatible set top box can you buy that can't decrypt?


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## colm (20 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> Does it matter if its criminal. You'd be in breech of contract. Is that irrelevant.


No but it proves what I said to be correct


AlbacoreA said:


> Answer the question.
> 
> Whats a digital reciever?


A digital receiver converts the digital signal so that you can see and hear  channels through your existing television. 


AlbacoreA said:


> What NTL compatiable set top box can you buy that can't decrypt.


Irrelevant to my point but I will humour you anyway!!


The purpose of mysettopbox.tv is to provide _you_ the end user with the knowledge needed to assemble your very own settop box using Linux. Utilizing open source software and off the shelf hardware you'll be able to assemble a box that has the following functions: 

PVR
Jukebox
Image viewer
Game station


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## AlbacoreA (20 Jan 2009)

jhegarty said:


> So what exactly would this box that doesn't break the encryption do ?


 
It would see the non encrypted channels I assume. Which channels are not encrypted I have no idea.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> No but it proves what I said to be correct


 
Well it proves you read the link you were given at the start of this thread. Originally you didn't know what was in the T&C. 



colm said:


> A digital receiver converts the digital signal so that you can see and hear channels through your existing television.


 
Except its a generic term. Unless you the right type of digital receiver you won't see or hear anything. Even if you have the right type of digital reciever, if the signal is encrypted you still won't see or hear anything. 



colm said:


> Irrelevant to my point but I will humour you anyway!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thats a piece of software, not hardware, and you can't buy it. But good luck with putting it together. Its not easy, even for someone who knows what they are doing. I know someone with one. Hes using it on Freeview. Which isn't encrypted. But you were originally talking about other boxes...



colm said:


> ...
> If I use a Eurovox or Starview with out the EMU key turned on I am simply recieving the stations I have paid for with my basic subscription.
> How is that illegal?


 
Because they decrypt. 

AFAIK the NTL digital, is all encrypted, including the channels which are free on analogue. The NTL box decrypts it. If you plug another box with can't do decrypting into it. You will see nothing. AFAIK.


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## colm (20 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> Except its a generic term.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## AlbacoreA (21 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Which is irrelevant as to it being a criminal offence.
> This is what i am disputing.


 
If you can say that about decrypting, after all thats been posted. then I'm wasting my time here.


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## colm (21 Jan 2009)

For the last time, I am not reffering to breaking the encryption. I am referring to the OP being told its illegal and its a criminal offence before any mention of watching scrambled channels. Further more upon checking  I can tell you not all channels on the digital platform on NTL are encrypted. You can view the channels that are on the basic package


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## AlbacoreA (21 Jan 2009)

Where are you getting that its not encrypted?

Have you found a box/pvr doesn't decrypt?


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## colm (21 Jan 2009)

Not myself but try this. A NTL box without a card or A Starivew or similar with EMU key off
Could it be there is free to air on NTL after all?????????????????????????????????????


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## jhegarty (22 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Not myself but try this. A NTL box without a card or A Starivew or similar with EMU key off
> Could it be there is free to air on NTL after all?????????????????????????????????????


 

Is it the 'free' part or 'air' part that confuses you ?


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## colm (22 Jan 2009)

Neither.
You stated first off that  there was no legal option except NTL.
Thats been proved wrong
You stated its a criminal offence to use anything other than a NTL box
Thats been proved wrong.
You stated that using any other box without breaking the encryption would not show anything.
Thats been proved wrong.
I dont think its me thats confused


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## AlbacoreA (22 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Not myself but try this. A NTL box without a card or A Starivew or similar with EMU key off
> Could it be there is free to air on NTL after all?????????????????????????????????????


 
Its not free because you pay to get the cable. 

The question really is can you (legally) connect anything other than NTL equipment to their network. Based on their T&C the answer is no. Breaking a contract is illegal in that you can be taken to court and sued for it. That said, the NTL T&C don't make much sense. As taken literally you can't connect a TV to it then either. How enforceable this is legally then is unclear. You'd have to ask on a Legal forum. Paying for it means you accept the T&C of the contract too. 

You don't know that the NTL, or any other box is doing with the basic channels, maybe its decoding them automatically with a different encyption thats built into the box. You can't say for certainty that its not decrypting anything. Saying it isn't proving it, as you don't know whats happening inside the box.


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## colm (22 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> Its not free because you pay to get the cable.


Sorry but I could have swore sombody said it would show nothing. Now when I say it does you have another excuse.



AlbacoreA said:


> Saying it isn't proving it,


Exactly. Also saying something is illegal does not make it so.
Breaking a contract means you can be taken court correct. That does not make it illegal. As I'm sure you know a contract can not supercede the law. If a precedent is set in the courts then it most likely would become law.

Yourself & jhegerty really are getting yourselves all worked up when I have said time & time again the only point I am arguing is the firse 2 statements

there is no legal option except NTL
and
its a criminal offence to use anything other than a NTL box

If you insist in saying those statements are correect please state what Law is being broken.


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## AlbacoreA (22 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> Sorry but I could have swore sombody said it would show nothing. Now when I say it does you have another excuse.


 
I was talking about it being free. End of. It can't be free if you have to pay for it. Can't be simplier than that.  I dunno how that is an excuse. Or what exactly thats an excuse for. 

What you see is a different issue. You don't know why you see something, or if its decypting the basic channels or not. Your assuming it doesn't. I don't know either way. 

You really need to ask NTL directly can you connect a cable decoder that doesn't do decryption, (if you can find one) to a NTL subscription that you pay for. So you can get extra features like a PVR, or just works better than NTL's DVR. As you'd be avoiding renting NTL's DVR I can't imagine they'll be keen on the idea. Even if you can find someone there who knows what they are talking about tbh. 

Any NTL STB/PVR I've used have been pretty slow, and annoying to use. So I can see why you'd want to use a different one, legally. I just don't see that NTL will allow you to do it. If you find out let us know. 



colm said:


> Breaking a contract means you can be taken court correct. That does not make it illegal. ...


 
I thought it did. I'm no legal expert. How can you be taken to court if its not illegal. Its contract law. No? You are legally bound.


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## colm (22 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> I was talking about it being free. End of. It can't be free if you have to pay for it.


I have already stated I pay for the basic package


AlbacoreA said:


> What you see is a different issue. You don't know why you see something, or if its decypting the basic channels or not. Your assuming it doesn't. I don't know either way.


How many times have I said thats irrelevant. If I plug a hair dryer into it it doesnt matter. The only thing I,m saying is its NOT Illegal.
You still havn't answered what law is being broken if it is illegal.



AlbacoreA said:


> I thought it did. I'm no legal expert.


You thought a contract can supercede the law???



AlbacoreA said:


> How can you be taken to court if its not illegal..


LOL for gods sake. If you won the lotto I could take you to court for half claiming you promised me by writing so on the back of a beer mat one night. That would be a contract. Would it be legally binding???


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## AlbacoreA (22 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> I have already stated I pay for the basic package


 
By that logic the bus is free if you have a ticket. 



colm said:


> How many times have I said thats irrelevant. If I plug a hair dryer into it it doesnt matter. The only thing I,m saying is its NOT Illegal.
> You still havn't answered what law is being broken if it is illegal.


 
I thought did. I think its Contract law no?



colm said:


> You thought a contract can supercede the law???


 
I didn't say that. But since you brought it up. 
What law is the contract superseding?




colm said:


> LOL for gods sake. If you won the lotto I could take you to court for half claiming you promised me by writing so on the back of a beer mat one night. That would be a contract. Would it be legally binding???


 
AFAIK. Yes. You don't even have to write it down. 

"Offer and acceptance does not always need to be expressed orally or in writing. "


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## colm (22 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> By that logic the bus is free if you have a ticket.


I have siad I pay for the channels I recieve & that I dont want to recieve anything I dont pay for.
Its in about 5 posts I dont know whats confusing you, & I sure as hell don't know what its got to do with the bus.


AlbacoreA said:


> I didn't say that. But since you brought it up.
> What law is the contract superseding?


???? Its not that what I'm saying



AlbacoreA said:


> "Offer and acceptance does not always need to be expressed orally or in writing. "


Total off the point but your right. But that does not necessarily mean you are breaking the law just because you breach a contract. Thats for the courts to decide.
Or do you presume everyone who is taken to court has broken the law?
I thought the basis of our judicial system was innocent untill proven guilty.


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## AlbacoreA (22 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> I have siad I pay for the channels I recieve & that I dont want to recieve anything I dont pay for.
> Its in about 5 posts I dont know whats confusing you, & I sure as hell don't know what its got to do with the bus..


 
I'll stop talking about buses if you stop calling it free, or free to air. Basically stop using terms you don't know the meaning of. Its very confusing. 

if you are going to make up terms don't use terms that actually mean something else entirely. Call it NTL Go Digital Value. Thats its proper name. 



colm said:


> ???? Its not that what I'm saying.


 
What are you saying? What do you mean by superseding?



colm said:


> Total off the point but your right. But that does not necessarily mean you are breaking the law just because you breach a contract. Thats for the courts to decide.
> Or do you presume everyone who is taken to court has broken the law?
> I thought the basis of our judicial system was innocent untill proven guilty.


 
When you say "Law" which Law are you talking about?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law

How is breaching a contract, not breaking contract law?


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## jhegarty (22 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> If you insist in saying those statements are correect please state what Law is being broken.



Copyright and Related Acts 2000 - Section 372


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## colm (22 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> When you say "Law" which Law are you talking about?


The laws of the Land. Which are you talking about.

Look forget everything else & put away the dictionary.
The 2 points again are:



> The only legal choice is the one NTL provide.


and


> it's a criminal offense to use any non ntl box on their network.


 
Please just answer the questions yes or no!
Do you consider those statements correct? 
If yes can you please state the law thats been broken . Not the contract the actual law that is been broken.
If yes then are you saying every NTL customer is commiting a criminal offence?


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## jhegarty (22 Jan 2009)

Copyright and Related Acts 2000 - Section 372


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## colm (22 Jan 2009)

jhegarty said:


> Copyright and Related Acts 2000 - Section 372


 
Have I done any of the below??????

charged for the reception of programmes included in a broadcast or cable programme service, or
sent encrypted transmissions of any other description,
Have I
made sold, rented or lent, or offered or exposed for sale, rental or loan any copyrighted material
imported into the State any copyrighted material

have I possession, custody or control of
any apparatus or protection-defeating device, knowing or having reason to believe that the apparatus or device is to be used to enable or assist persons to receive those programmes or transmissions when those persons are not so entitled
 Have I
Provided information, or offers or performs any service, intended to enable or assist persons to receive those programmes or transmissions when those persons are not so entitled


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## jhegarty (22 Jan 2009)

This the relevant line here. If you are braking your contract with NTL then you are in breach of the act because you are then not entitled to view the transmission.

Might say it's not fair (I agree)  , but that's the way it works.



> any apparatus or protection-defeating device, knowing or having reason to believe that the apparatus or device is to be used to enable or assist persons to receive those programmes or transmissions when those persons are not so entitled


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## colm (22 Jan 2009)

I am entitled to recieve the service I am paying for.
I am not in possession of..
any apparatus or protection-defeating device, knowing or having reason to believe that the apparatus or device is to be used to enable or assist persons to receive those programmes or transmissions when those persons are not so entitled 
A contract has to be terminated by one of the 2 parties myself or NTL, other as long as they are accepting my payment for their services I am entitled to recieve that service.


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## jhegarty (22 Jan 2009)

colm said:


> I am entitled to recieve the service I am paying for.




No. 

You are only entitled if you have a valid contract with NTL. Paying for it is only one part of that.


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## colm (22 Jan 2009)

Yes , but I am entitled to recieve untill the contract is cancelled by myself or NTL.
Which I am sure ( not positive though) must be in writing.
If breach of T&Cs is an automatic cancellation of contract then virtually every NTL customers contract is cancelled & they are all breaking the law you are quoting?
If so it back to the question I asked above


> If yes then are you saying every NTL customer is commiting a criminal offence?


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