# I was never induced to give up my tracker mortgage!



## emeralds (29 Oct 2015)

Reading all these posts about lenders inducing customers off tracker rates makes me wonder if I am the only one who was never asked to do this??
We took out a tracker with ICS back in 2005 (at a rate of less than 1% over ECB). In the last 10 years we have never once received any communication about switching to fixed. I have every single piece of correspondence about the mortgage and was looking through it last night and not one word about switching.
Are we unusual?


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## Paulie74 (29 Oct 2015)

I've mine since 2003 and never received any correspondence regarding giving up my tracker until BOI recent offer of attractive fixed rate and subsequent apology letter.


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## todo (29 Oct 2015)

I was helped off mine in September 2008 by BOI.


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## PaddyW (29 Oct 2015)

I've had a tracker with KBC since 2007. I've never been asked about switching rates etc.


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## Sarenco (29 Oct 2015)

todo said:


> I was helped off mine in September 2008 by BOI.



Well, that's not strictly accurate, is it? 

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/boi-accepted-tracker-then-called-about-new-fixed-rate.186124/


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## Buddyboy (29 Oct 2015)

Never a word, not a dickiebird, and we were with NIB - with an ecb +.05% tracker. So you would think either they, or pepper would have been plaguing us.

I feel left-out now. But maybe I'm part of the silent majority


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## todo (29 Oct 2015)

Sarenco said:


> Well, that's not strictly accurate, is it?
> 
> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/boi-accepted-tracker-then-called-about-new-fixed-rate.186124/



Hi Sarenco,
       In my view it is 100% accurate.
I signed up for a tracker mortgage and sent all the details back to the bank.
Nine days later they had a policy change, (they were no longer selling trackers)
Two days after this they call me up and push a fixed rate offer on me, without explaining that it did not revert to tracker rate, when previous fixed rate offers did.

Two issues, the bank knew at this point that tracker business was bad for them, and they also knew I had not yet drawn down on the offer I had signed up for.

Now the code of conduct states that a financial institution "does not recklessly, negligently or deliberately mislead a customer as to the real or perceived advantages or disadvantages of any product or service;"

Getting me on off the tracker was strictly to the banks advantage, they knew rates were going to fall and they done all in their power to get customers off tracker products by any means necessary, this is my opinion.

It was a dirty trick by a financial institution.

I brought my case to the FSO and lost. I have to accept this as the cost of appealing it essentially excludes me from the right to justice.

Its my opinion that I was helped off my tracker, Sarenco you may feel differently about this, I don't want to drag the original posters post off topic.

If you feel its something you want to discuss further, please pm me and I will send you my contact number, I would be delighted to converse on it.


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## thedaddyman (29 Oct 2015)

With Ulster Bank, 0.75% above ECB for 8 years and never once did the bank ask or attempt to move us off the tracker


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## Sarenco (29 Oct 2015)

I'm not trying to have a go todo but you were never actually on a tracker rate so you obviously couldn't be helped off something you were never on.

With the benefit of hindsight, it's obviously a pity that you accepted the subsequent, cheaper fixed rate offer.  Unfortunately, we don't have the benefit of hindsight when we make our decisions and I can certainly see that the cheaper fixed rate option may well have looked like the better choice back in August 2008.

As a matter of interest, did you file a complaint with the Ombudsman in the end?

More than happy to discuss off-line if you prefer.


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## todo (29 Oct 2015)

Sarenco said:


> you were never actually on a tracker rate so you obviously couldn't be helped off something you were never on.



I disagree I had signed, accepted and returned my side of the agreement, so from my point of view I was on a tracker.

The benefit of hindsight would be nice, but we all have to remember that the bank had the benefit of foresight, they knew what was going to happen with the trackers, why else would they have a policy change and why would they contact me about a great new fixed rate which omitted the special condition that existed in all previous fixed rate offers.

The bank knew exactly what it was doing.

In my view its a clear breach of the consumer protection code.

"acts honestly, fairly and professionally in the best interests of its *customers"
*
The bank had the foresight to know that trackers were bad business, they contact me to sell me a different product and didn't have the decency to point out that once the fixed period ended, a tracker would be off the cards. No mention that the special condition was not in the agreement as it had been before their policy change.

It was not fair and far from professional.

"makes full disclosure of all relevant material information"
Surely quietly removing special conditions from mortgage offers is not making a full disclosure. Particularly when its clearly to the banks advantage.


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## Sarenco (29 Oct 2015)

todo said:


> I disagree I had signed, accepted and returned my side of the agreement, so from my point of view I was on a tracker.



Yes but you were never actually on a tracker rate and the agreement that you initially signed in this regard was never put into effect and in any event was superseded by the fixed rate agreement that you subsequently signed a few days later.

I am not trying to argue the merits of your complaint - I can see why you feel that the terms of the fixed rate offer were unfair.

Did you ever bring your complaint to the ombudsman?


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## todo (29 Oct 2015)

I was on tracker for 11 days then 

Its a great example of a complete and utter disregard for the Consumer Protection Code.

I am certain their are many others who were deceived in the same way during this period.

I brought my case to the FSO and lost. I have to accept this as the cost of appealing it essentially prohibits me from getting justice.


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## Sarenco (29 Oct 2015)

Well, you were only on a tracker rate if you actually drew down your loan on the basis of that loan offer.  

I understood that you drew down your loan on the basis of the subsequent (fixed rate) loan offer but please correct me if that's not what happened.

I'm sorry to hear that your complaint to the FSO was unsuccessful.

Playing devil's advocate, you could argue that you backed the wrong horse in opting for a fixed rate mortgage and it was your own fault for not reading the terms of the loan offer.  However, when you take account of the sequence of events, and in particular the fact that the earlier (higher margin) fixed rate offer would have allowed you to default to a tracker rate, I thought you had reasonable grounds for complaint.  Not a slam dunk perhaps but certainly a stateable case.

I suppose the lesson for the rest of us is to always read, and fully understand, any document we are asked to sign.  Cold comfort for you obviously.


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## todo (29 Oct 2015)

Sarenco said:


> I suppose the lesson for the rest of us is to always read, and fully understand, any document we are asked to sign.  Cold comfort for you obviously.



The consumer protection code is their for a reason, its to protect consumers like me from the trickery of financial institutions.

Would you agree that their is a breach in this case?


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## Sarenco (29 Oct 2015)

todo said:


> Would you agree that their is a breach in this case?



Well, I'm sure the bank would argue that you were not deliberately misled and that the terms of the loan offer that you ultimately accepted were clear and unambiguous.  I'm also equally sure that you would dispute that version of events!  Fairness, like beauty, I'm afraid, is very much in the eye of the beholder.

In any event, the Code is effectively a matter between the bank and its regulator - the Code doesn't give you any individual rights that you can actually enforce.

There is an inherent contradiction, in my opinion, between the Central Bank's twin objectives of enhancing financial stability and promoting consumer protection.  Of course, endeavoring to prevent banks from actually going bust and defaulting on their obligations to depositors is the ultimate form of consumer protection but at a micro level (such as considering whether a bank has acted "fairly" or in the "best interests of a customer"), the conflicting objectives become apparent.  Banking regulators in the States, for example, have no similar dual mandate.

Anyway, I think I've dragged this thread way of topic at this stage...


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## tallpaul (30 Oct 2015)

13 years with UB and on a tracker from the very start. No communication ever regarding our tracker with a view to switching.


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## visigoth (30 Oct 2015)

todo, are you saying the BOI offered a tracker in August 2008? todo, In another thread I queried other people (incl Sarenco) on this forum as to why the BOI in July 2008 told me that a tracker was no longer available. Even though trackers were officially pulled in October 2008 only as I know now. A person who worked for the BOI then said it was because new tracker loans were pulled in July and remained available to October only on offers made earlier. But todo you are saying you were offered a tracker in August, i.e., after it was "unavailable" to me in July. Really weird. 

Probably means all was at the discretion of loan officers and probably the bank encouraged them not to offer trackers but some did and some did not. Now we try to make sense of it all and read the small font but it was all a lottery.


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## todo (30 Oct 2015)

visigoth said:


> todo, are you saying the BOI offered a tracker in August 2008? todo, In another thread I queried other people (incl Sarenco) on this forum as to why the BOI in July 2008 told me that a tracker was no longer available. Even though trackers were officially pulled in October 2008 only as I know now. A person who worked for the BOI then said it was because new tracker loans were pulled in July and remained available to October only on offers made earlier. But todo you are saying you were offered a tracker in August, i.e., after it was "unavailable" to me in July. Really weird.
> 
> Probably means all was at the discretion of loan officers and probably the bank encouraged them not to offer trackers but some did and some did not. Now we try to make sense of it all and read the small font but it was all a lottery.



Visigoth, to answer your questions

I was offered a fixed rate that returned to a tracker on the 1st of Aug,
On the 22nd Aug I was offered a tracker (which I signed up for).
On the 15th of Sept I was called up and offered a fixed rate. No mention or indication that the tracker special condition was not included..


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## emeralds (30 Oct 2015)

What was the tracker rate you were offered on 22nd August? And the fixed rate you signed up to on 15th September?


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## todo (30 Oct 2015)

emeralds said:


> What was the tracker rate you were offered on 22nd August? And the fixed rate you signed up to on 15th September?



I signed up to both, but the latter supersedes the original.

Tracker was ecb + 1.20% = 5.4% at the time
Fixed was 5.2%

Bank had the foresight to know the trackers were bad business on the 11th Sept (policy change), so they sold me up the river on the 15th.


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## visigoth (30 Oct 2015)

todo, my point is that it looks like the availability of trackers made by the BOI in 2008 appears dicretionary. You said, "On the 22nd Aug I was offered a tracker". You see, in late July the very same BOI told me that a tracker was no longer available, even though I had below 80 LTV and was good all around guy. So I ended up with SVR instead when I signed the papers then in July 2008. Anyway, do not want to distract from your query you have here. But it brings the point home that one and the same bank made trackers unavailable in July to some people, then available in August, then unavailable again in September. 

Good luck with the quest, hope you can get your tracker back. Although personally i would prefer if all of us on trackers, fixed and svr alike, paid low rates alike.


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## pinkie123 (30 Oct 2015)

I drew down my BOI mortgage in July 2008 - about 90% LTV... offered tracker...actually decided myself on a fixed rate for 2 years and spent 2 years regretting it as the ECB rate subsequently went down (after rising once after drawdown). I remember reading on here all the PTSB people allowed off their fixed rates. I cursed BOI at the time as I asked to do the same only to have to pay a breakout fee of about 20k. Needless to say I stayed on fixed till my 2 years were up and then lo and behold I was offered my tracker back which is what I am on now. Nobody from bank ever tried to entice me off this rate - only correspondance I ever got from them was the recent letter that was supposed to have been sent out in error.


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## todo (30 Oct 2015)

pinkie123 said:


> I drew down my BOI mortgage in July 2008 - about 90% LTV... offered tracker...actually decided myself on a fixed rate for 2 years and spent 2 years regretting it as the ECB rate subsequently went down (after rising once after drawdown). I remember reading on here all the PTSB people allowed off their fixed rates. I cursed BOI at the time as I asked to do the same only to have to pay a breakout fee of about 20k. Needless to say I stayed on fixed till my 2 years were up and then lo and behold I was offered my tracker back which is what I am on now. Nobody from bank ever tried to entice me off this rate - only correspondance I ever got from them was the recent letter that was supposed to have been sent out in error.



That was before the policy change, the difference is I got a call to entice me off the tracker onto this new great fixed rate offer. But no disclosure came with it, that explained the difference from previous fixed rate offers was that it reverted to a variable rate rather then a tracker rate.


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## Sarenco (30 Oct 2015)

On the precise timing of the withdrawal of tracker offers, Monbretia (who was at the coalface, so to speak) reported as follows:

"Can only speak for where I worked but remember very clearly when trackers finished being offered on applications. July 2008 I was off sick for 4 weeks, before I left trackers were there when I came back they were gone for new loan application other than loan offers already issued or in the pipeline. Those customers were given some time to draw them down, couldn't say exactly how much but feel it was until around the end of September that year. It was a hectic few months trying to get as many drawn down as possible.

That sort of space for existing offers to draw down could explain why even though trackers ceased to be offered they were still being issues to cases in the pipeline for several months until the pipeline was cleared and then they were totally finished."

It's certainly possible that there was something of a transitional period when formal tracker loan offers were issued in some branches and drawn down in July, August or even in early September if they were already in the pipeline (AIPs issued, paperwork being gathered, etc.).

To put the timing into perspective, Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy on 15 September 2008 after weeks of uncertainty in the financial markets and I guess we all know what happened next...


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## todo (30 Oct 2015)

Sarenco said:


> On the precise timing of the withdrawal of tracker offers, Monbretia (who was at the coalface, so to speak) reported as follows:
> 
> "Can only speak for where I worked but remember very clearly when trackers finished being offered on applications. July 2008 I was off sick for 4 weeks, before I left trackers were there when I came back they were gone for new loan application other than loan offers already issued or in the pipeline. Those customers were given some time to draw them down, couldn't say exactly how much but feel it was until around the end of September that year. It was a hectic few months trying to get as many drawn down as possible.
> 
> ...




BOI mortgages told me themselves that they had a policy change on the 11th of Sept. The policy change was to no longer sell trackers. I would imagine you could get one up to that point if requested.
Coincidentally the 15th was also the day they called me!

I would not think that the individual branches had any say in it.


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## visigoth (30 Oct 2015)

The official policy change in the BOI I believe was early October, not to sell trackers, period. I was offered a choice between a tracker and fixed on approval in principle, perhaps May or June, can't remember now. The official mortgage offer, all docs in place, that came through in late July was a choice between SVR and fixed. The officer said a tracker was not available. I asked for it, and it was unavailable. They also said that SVRs and trackers covaried together, not that different. So you could say I was in the pipeline in July already, and drew down in August. I have no clue what it means and why would they make trackers unavailable to some but not other customers July to September period, I cant think of anything wrong with me then or my finances. The only possible reason is the general mess or miscommunication in branches that cost me dearly. Like few months ago I asked at the BOI branch if I could fix for one year only, they said absolutely, and then few days after got back to me that one year fix was for new customers only. I think it is more incompetence or the lack of knowledge than a conspiracy. Maybe.


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## visigoth (30 Oct 2015)

But it is all so bizarre, cant think of anything comparable. In a normal economy, you make mistakes you fix them later if you can, in case of mortgages refinance or something. But in Eire trackers no longer resemble contracts between economic agents and are more like something else, like a knighthood or a 
desirable citizenship, you either have it or not. And if somehow you do not have it you end up paying more for life. Would be an interesting experiment if those on trackers but unable to meet the payments somehow could sell trackers on an auction to people without, how much people on svr like me would have paid. In a low interest rate world the difference is enormous. Exhibit 1: with current rates I pay 550-600 per month over what I would have paid  had I been in their pipeline few weeks earlier and if ended up on a tracker. If the banks did not exploit svr and fixed customers we would not even have all these threads about losing trackers or never being induced from a tracker and so on, would not be an issue.


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