# American Justice and Strauss-Kahn



## oldnick (1 Jul 2011)

When I saw Strauss-Kahn being dragged around in chains, jostled by baying mobs, thrown in a nasty prison and eventually given the most onerous bail conditions -well, the guy was obviously guilty. 

As the mayor of N.Y.said - if he didn't like his treatment he shouldn't have done the crime.

Of course,we all felt uncomfortable about such a display of  guilty-until-proven-guilty attitude in the USA - but ,sadly, the guy deserved what he got -plus losing his IMF job and the chance of becoming leader of the socialist party and perhaps President of France. How else should a rapist be treated?

But I had a dream last night where I imagined watching TV news that the guy may actually be innocent -at worst guilty of a consensual quickie (with a corrupt/criminal hotel maid.)

I know it was only a dream because if it was true then my love of America and its principles of freedom and justice will have been proved ,as my friends continually tell me, to be naive in the extreme. Yes, US makes lousy overseas policy decisions , has a growing fundamentalist problem-Tea Party etc - but it is essentially a morally just society.

So, obviously, Strauss-Kahn is guilty of rape and it was just a dream.


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## TarfHead (1 Jul 2011)

I think his libel lawyers will have carefully filed away all of the media reports from when this story first broke.

Doesn't explan why he, as reported, legged it to the airport, leaving his phone behind him at the hotel.

It's an odd one


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## DB74 (1 Jul 2011)

We in Ireland should just be glad that the biggest bullies in the whole wide world want to be mates with us!


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## gipimann (1 Jul 2011)

...and worry about the day when they might not want to be mates with us!


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## Purple (1 Jul 2011)

DB74 said:


> We in Ireland should just be glad that the biggest bullies in the whole wide world want to be mates with us!



Yes, the Chinese do like us.


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## dereko1969 (1 Jul 2011)

TarfHead said:


> I think his libel lawyers will have carefully filed away all of the media reports from when this story first broke.
> 
> Doesn't explan why he, as reported, legged it to the airport, leaving his phone behind him at the hotel.
> 
> It's an odd one


 
That's not what actually happened, he went to meet his daughter for lunch, he has a number of phones one of which he rang the hotel to retrieve, he was already booked on that flight.


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## DB74 (1 Jul 2011)

Purple said:


> Yes, the Chinese do like us.



I like chinese too!

You couldn't really regard China as bigger bullies on the world stage though, well not IMO. Israel maybe but def not China (joke ok!)


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## rustbucket (1 Jul 2011)

Saw something in the news today about the possibility of the case being dropped due to credibility issues with the alleged victim.


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## TarfHead (1 Jul 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> That's not what actually happened,


 
I qualified what I posted with '_as reported_'. What '_actually happened_' may need to be likewise qualified.


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## salaried (1 Jul 2011)

Looks like your dream will come through Nick, Even the prosecutors are doubting the alledged victims version of events.


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## Latrade (1 Jul 2011)

Let the New World Order conspiracies start about....now.

Unlikely scenario. Accusations made. Arrested. On Bail. Loses Job. New person in job done in fairly cloak and dagger fashion. New person in job possibly more big bank friendly. I smell NWO stitch up.





I don't btw.


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## TarfHead (1 Jul 2011)

Latrade said:


> Let the New World Order conspiracies start about....now.


 
You missed the allegation that the alleged victim/principal prosecution witness has being receiving discrete lodgments to her bank account over the last year, totalling USD 100K.


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## Purple (1 Jul 2011)

Where's Jim Coor when you need him?


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## Latrade (1 Jul 2011)

TarfHead said:


> You missed the allegation that the alleged victim/principal prosecution witness has being receiving discrete lodgments to her bank account over the last year, totalling USD 100K.


 
Dang, thanks. Those lizard overlords are so evil.


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## enoxy (1 Jul 2011)

Purple said:


> Where's Jim Coor when you need him?


 
What's Coors got to do with it. I think DSK was sober, just a bit frisky.


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## TarfHead (1 Jul 2011)

Latrade said:


> Dang, thanks. Those lizard overlords are so evil.


 
And there's this


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## horusd (1 Jul 2011)

I read the NY Times article here.  Which indicates that the accuser may have crediblilty issues. Hard to know what's going on really, but in fairness, it was the prosecution that raised the issue of her credibility. I wonder if DSK is exhonorated, will he run against Sarky? The French are very forgiving around sexual shenanigans.


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## oldnick (1 Jul 2011)

The French are not the most pro-American nation either -and if ,really, DSK is innocent then his treatment by the Americans will be a big plus in any French election.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Jul 2011)

oldnick said:


> The French are not the most pro-American nation either -and if ,really, DSK is innocent then his treatment by the Americans will be a big plus in any French election.



That's what I was thinking. It's really a plot by the Americans to make sure that DSK gets elected. 

Brendan


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## micmclo (1 Jul 2011)

If it turns out that the accuser was lying, she should face the same time that DSK would have gotten if found guilty.

Even for us ordinary folk, mud sticks and lives can be ruined over by false accusations.

So if maybe the penalty was five years (I don't know what it is),the lying accuser gets the penalty 
No Mickey mouse wasting police time reports or slap on the wrist. 

Think twice before filing a report and pressing charges

Sorry, bit offtopic




horusd said:


> The French are very forgiving around sexual shenanigans.



François Mitterrand had a child with his long term mistress, never did him a bit of harm in the polls


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## Latrade (2 Jul 2011)

Hmmm there's a nasty vibe in the more liberal media. Lots of comments and opinion on how just because she had a dodgy past, it shouldn't mean she's free to be raped. 

I couldn't agree more with that accept there was no trial, there was no proof of rape or assault. Just because he's rich and the ex-IMF head, doesn't mean the legal and moral process of innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt doesn't exist.


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## Complainer (2 Jul 2011)

oldnick said:


> But I had a dream last night where I imagined watching TV news that the guy may actually be innocent -at worst guilty of a consensual quickie (with a corrupt/criminal hotel maid.)



Strange dream - I don't know many women who find greying old men to be irresistible.


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## Latrade (2 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> Strange dream - I don't know many women who find greying old men to be irresistible.



So because he's old and grey presume he imprisoned and raped someone without evidence? Really? Few names my partner would class as attractive men at their current age: Richard Gere, Robert Redford, Bruce Willis, George Clooney, Sean Connery. Are we to assume now that because they are old they will never have consensual sex? 

Does your judging logic extend to because Schwarzenegger's housekeeper wasn't a looker we should assume there's no way he would have consensual sex with her?

Great use of liberal principles, he's old, of course he raped her.


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## oldnick (2 Jul 2011)

Complainer - As an old man it's only in my dreams that young women find me irresistible, or that I can do much about it.  That's probably why I always look forward to my afternoon nap.

Anyway, on a more serious note, my point was about US justice .....
Whether or not DSK is guilty ,the NYPD, DA, USmedia ETC had already judged and started to publicly punish him before any trial.
Wrong wrong wrong.


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## Complainer (2 Jul 2011)

Latrade said:


> So because he's old and grey presume he imprisoned and raped someone without evidence? Really? Few names my partner would class as attractive men at their current age: Richard Gere, Robert Redford, Bruce Willis, George Clooney, Sean Connery.


Wow, that's some leap there, on a number of grounds. With all due respect, DSK is no Gere/Redford/Willis/Clooney/Connery. He hasn't spent decades making a glamorous career out of his good looks. 


Latrade said:


> Are we to assume now that because they are old they will never have consensual sex?


Yet another huge leap. But if you want assumptions, here's one. It is reasonable to assume that any 60+ year old heavy greying man staying in a $3k per night hotel room will have consensual sex with a minimum wage immigrant maid. It's just a big stretch to see this as a relationship of equals, if for no other reason than she is almost certainly being paid a fixed rate per room, so she doesn't have time for messing around with the guests.

I've no idea what went on in that hotel. I haven't pre-judged anybody. It is possible, for example, that there was some mutual consensual financial arrangement between two adults. That would be much more realistic to me than the suggestion that she was suddenly overcome with lust for DSK. 

I would find extremely suspicious if the charges were dropped before trial. If DSK plans any kind of career in the public view and if he is blameless, then it is in his interests for him to be publicly and openly cleared.


Latrade said:


> Does your judging logic extend to because Schwarzenegger's housekeeper wasn't a looker we should assume there's no way he would have consensual sex with her?
> .



You can assume what you like. I haven't seen anything on this case beyond a tabloid headline or two, so I'm not going to comment.


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Jul 2011)

Latrade said:


> Hmmm there's a nasty vibe in the more liberal media. Lots of comments and opinion on how just because she had a dodgy past, it shouldn't mean she's free to be raped.
> .



I haven't seen that interpretation myself. 

What I have heard reported is: 

Her story has turned out to be inconsistent. 
She has lied to the court 

if this is true, it would suggest that she is an unreliable witness and they will be unable to base a prosecution on it. 

I think it's clear from the approach of the prosecutors that they would like to prosecute. But if they don't have a case, they won't. 

Brendan


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## ajapale (2 Jul 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> She has lied to the court .


I dont think she has appeared in court yet.


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## Latrade (2 Jul 2011)

Brendan, John Snow is just one commentator to say it. Numerous others have too. 

Complainer, you're saying money has to change hands? I really think that as ALL charges are dropped you might want to be careful what you say. My examples were still old men, how do you know he's not very charming and good company? Can't women be attracted to that? Because I thought as far as gender stereotypes go, women wanted more than just looks. It's never happened before that a woman has had consensual sex with a man who wasn't that attractive? Because he was powed up and wealthy? Hugh Heffner? Gene Simmons? Both old, neither great lookers, both still sleeping with women. Are all their endeavours based on their power and therefore a form of rape?


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## Ancutza (2 Jul 2011)

Whatever about a trial going ahead there seems to be little forensic doubt that some kind of sexual encounter did indeed happen.  Neither the prosecution nor the defense seem to take issue with that fact.

So his missus must be well proud of him then so, the virile old fecker!!


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## Complainer (3 Jul 2011)

Latrade said:


> Complainer, you're saying money has to change hands? I really think that as ALL charges are dropped you might want to be careful what you say. My examples were still old men, how do you know he's not very charming and good company? Can't women be attracted to that? Because I thought as far as gender stereotypes go, women wanted more than just looks. It's never happened before that a woman has had consensual sex with a man who wasn't that attractive? Because he was powed up and wealthy? Hugh Heffner? Gene Simmons? Both old, neither great lookers, both still sleeping with women. Are all their endeavours based on their power and therefore a form of rape?



No, I'm not saying that 'money has to change hands', but I am saying that is one possible explanation. He may well be very charming and good company, but that doesn't explain having sex with a hotel maid. I'm sure that both you and I are also very charming and good company, but I'd hazard a guess that we've never had sex with a hotel maid. It just doesn't happen as a matter of course, well not in the world I inhabit anyway.

If you are a celebrity like Clooney/the Heff/Simmons, then perhaps groupies might be available, but what had DSK to offer, except money.


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## Maggs065 (3 Jul 2011)

To be honest he was judged guilty from the off in my opinion - totally unfair. The latest about the alleged victim is that she is a hotel prostitute and DSK refused to pay her. He never denied that he had sex with her.

If that's the case, then she is the one who should be prosecuted for ruining his career and reputation!


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## Purple (4 Jul 2011)

Maggs065 said:


> To be honest he was judged guilty from the off in my opinion - totally unfair. The latest about the alleged victim is that she is a hotel prostitute and DSK refused to pay her. He never denied that he had sex with her.
> 
> If that's the case, then she is the one who should be prosecuted for ruining his career and reputation!



And if the story is true and she was no good but still wanted to be paid then she could be charged under the Trade Descriptions Act


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## Latrade (4 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> No, I'm not saying that 'money has to change hands', but I am saying that is one possible explanation. He may well be very charming and good company, but that doesn't explain having sex with a hotel maid. I'm sure that both you and I are also very charming and good company, but I'd hazard a guess that we've never had sex with a hotel maid. It just doesn't happen as a matter of course, well not in the world I inhabit anyway.
> 
> If you are a celebrity like Clooney/the Heff/Simmons, then perhaps groupies might be available, but what had DSK to offer, except money.


 
Of course you're right, when are you ever wrong? Let's have a sweeping generalisation that no women would ever consent to sleep with a less than attractive man unless they were in some way famous. Irrespective of all the women I know who have done so, you're right, no possible way it could happen, ergo all men (who aren't famous) over a certain age, below a certain threshold of attractiveness can only sleep with a women by force.

I'm absolutely sure that the then head of one of the most powerful organisations in the world  wouldn't possibly have anything to offer.


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## Purple (4 Jul 2011)

Latrade, he's a rich and powerful man and he's part of the capitalist system. That's enough to make him guilty in the minds of some people.


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## Complainer (4 Jul 2011)

Latrade said:


> I'm absolutely sure that the then head of one of the most powerful organisations in the world  wouldn't possibly have anything to offer.


What percentage of hotel maids in NY have even heard of the IMF (or had heard, before this particular event)?



Latrade said:


> . Irrespective of all the women I know who have done so,


Do you know many hotel maids who get so swept up in the charm and good company of the room guests that they just have to have a quickie on the spot?


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## DB74 (4 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> What percentage of hotel maids in NY have even heard of the IMF (or had heard, before this particular event)?
> 
> 
> Do you know many hotel maids who get so swept up in the charm and good company of the room guests that they just have to have a quickie on the spot?



So now we're using generalisations to convict people?


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## Complainer (4 Jul 2011)

DB74 said:


> So now we're using generalisations to convict people?


I haven't convicted anyone. That's usually up to the jury. Looks like they won't get the chance this time.

I wonder if the same energy and resources that have gone into checking up on the maid's background have also gone into checkking on DSK's background.

But seriously, do you know of any/many hotel maids who fall for the charm and good company of hotel guests?


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## DB74 (4 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> But seriously, do you know of any/many hotel maids who fall for the charm and good company of hotel guests?



But it's not a normal situation. He's not a normal 60+yr-old man. He is/was a very powerful man in the world of international finance and French politics. I find it hard to believe that the maids don't know who the important guests are in the hotel.

And while I don't necessarily believe that she fell for his Gallic charm, there are other possibilities as to why consensual sex took place. eg potential blackmail, false accusations to ensure visas etc. Who knows?

But just because he is a old man doesn't mean the maid didn't have consensual sex with him, for whatever reason or motive.


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## Latrade (4 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> What percentage of hotel maids in NY have even heard of the IMF (or had heard, before this particular event)?


 
Given there is absolutely no way either of us could actually quantify this, it's a complete and utter pointless question. 



Complainer said:


> Do you know many hotel maids who get so swept up in the charm and good company of the room guests that they just have to have a quickie on the spot?


 
Actually: yes. And Bar staff and receptionists and other staff at hotels. All communicated to me from ex and current staff at hotels. It happens. It's a mad mad world where even those not blessed with looks or youth can still sleep with people.


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## DB74 (4 Jul 2011)

Latrade said:


> Actually: yes. And Bar staff and receptionists and other staff at hotels. All communicated to me from ex and current staff at hotels. It happens. It's a mad mad world where even those not blessed with looks or youth can still sleep with people.



Could you PM me these hotels!


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## Complainer (4 Jul 2011)

DB74 said:


> But it's not a normal situation. He's not a normal 60+yr-old man. He is/was a very powerful man in the world of international finance and French politics. I find it hard to believe that the maids don't know who the important guests are in the hotel.


When you have hotel rooms that cost $3,000 a night, it's a fair guess that every guest in that room is important, or at least quite rich. If you're cleaning a €3,000 per night room every working day, it is unlikely that you'll be swooning in girlish admiration for a foreigner 30 years older than you. 


DB74 said:


> And while I don't necessarily believe that she fell for his Gallic charm, there are other possibilities as to why consensual sex took place. eg potential blackmail, false accusations to ensure visas etc. Who knows?
> 
> But just because he is a old man doesn't mean the maid didn't have consensual sex with him, for whatever reason or motive.


There are indeed other possibilities. You're right insofar it is not impossible that she had consensual sex with him. To me, it is just quite unlikely.



Latrade said:


> Given there is absolutely no way either of us could actually quantify this, it's a complete and utter pointless question.


The point is that posters have suggested that she knew that he was 'head of the IMF'. I'd bet a fiver that she had no idea who or what the IMF was before this went down.



Latrade said:


> Actually: yes. And Bar staff and receptionists and other staff at hotels. All communicated to me from ex and current staff at hotels. It happens. It's a mad mad world where even those not blessed with looks or youth can still sleep with people.


Mad mad world indeed - maybe so mad that it is imaginary.


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## oldnick (4 Jul 2011)

ah, complainer, if only you knew. Having worked in the travel business for forty years ,including much time in hotels across Europe I can confirm all previous reports and worse. 

But this is getting silly....
Look we all know that some women are attracted to distinguished-looking older men. (I've never achieved that look, being more like a sad old tramp). Being ultra-rich is an added stimulant.  Surely there's no argument there?

However, in this case is it not likely that  the gentleman in question ,renowned for both his sexual appetite and commercial acumen, combined those two attributes and satisfied the first by utilising the second? He paid her.

And I agree with the statement above " I'd bet a fiver that she had no idea who or what the IMF was before she went down".


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## Latrade (4 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> The point is that posters have suggested that she knew that he was 'head of the IMF'. I'd bet a fiver that she had no idea who or what the IMF was before this went down.
> 
> 
> Mad mad world indeed - maybe so mad that it is imaginary.



Do we know how many time he stayed there and how staff were briefed as to who he was? No. So we can't make any assumptions. 

As to the last point, thanks for suggesting I just made that up, but hopefully the above post might just cause some form of retraction? Hotels aren't the only places such behaviour goes on, similar tales exist in offices and don't get started on the airline industry. 

But if it's all just a big lie I've created as is my lie that women may just sleep with someone for reasons other than their looks. and my even worse lie that it's nice to wait until a trial before presuming someone guilty of an accusation.


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## Complainer (4 Jul 2011)

oldnick said:


> However, in this case is it not likely that  the gentleman in question ,renowned for both his sexual appetite and commercial acumen, combined those two attributes and satisfied the first by utilising the second? He paid her.


I mentioned that possibility in an earlier post.



oldnick said:


> And I agree with the statement above " I'd bet a fiver that she had no idea who or what the IMF was before she went down".


Now, now....


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## Firefly (5 Jul 2011)

oldnick said:


> " I'd bet a fiver that she had no idea who or what the IMF was before she went down".



You durty ole codger!!


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## Purple (6 Jul 2011)

Complainer, he's a rich socialist. Therefore he'd fit right in with the Labour Party here. Are you sure you don't like him?


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## shammy feen (6 Jul 2011)

Complainer said:


> With all due respect, DSK is no Gere/Redford/Willis/Clooney/Connery. .


 
Opinion not fact.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all...


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## Complainer (6 Jul 2011)

shammy feen said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all...


It's not just about looks. DSK is not a celebrity (or wasn't before this happened). His face would not have been well known, outside of financial and political circles.


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