# Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT) Query



## BOC_ARDEE

Hi folks,

I came up with an idea though I don't know if there is any merit to it...
I recently bought a car in the UK and the VRT is €9500. It then went upto €10200 because I had leather seats and metallic paint..Which is a complete joke.

I noticed that it is possible to register a company in the Isle of Man for €69 including a "virtual address". If I register such a company and deemed the car I just bought as a company car to my Isle of Man company, would I be right in saying that I could legally drive it over here without paying VRT on it as it would already be registered to me in the IoM?. 

After a period of 6 months could I then do a business transfer to Ireland?. (Business transfer company cars are VRT exempt).

Has anyone tried this or do they know the tax implications of such an ordeal?. I know its a bit dodgy, but still sounds legal.

Any info or discussions are most welcome....

Regards,
Barry.


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## ivorystraws

Hi Barry,

I'm no expert but there are various reliefs and exemptions from VRT. These are described in individual public notices which are available from any VRO. They include exemption which may apply in the case of :

- Transfer of residence
- Transfer of business activity 
- Inheritance 

I can't comment on the legality of your proposed solution but I doubt it is as simple as that but then again, I'm no expert!


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## BOC_ARDEE

Cheers Ivory,

I'm kinda thinking along the same lines as the foreign nationals. They have their cars registered to Polish, Russian addresses or whichever and can legally drive here in Ireland as they are still within the EU. 

There are also a lot of people from Northern Ireland who live in the south, that uses their old addresses or relatives addresses to avoid have to pay VRT. Obviously we in the south dont have that luxury as we dont have addresses in other states which is where my whole idea of registering a company in the Isle of Man comes in. It will basically give us a foreign address to register a car too!. 

As in my examples above you can see that it has kinda already been done,
so it should be prefectly legal. 

I simple refuse to pay the government 10k for absolutely nothing, its a complete outrage and apparently is completely illegal within EU directives, but no one has challenged it in court?.


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## ang1170

You are far from the first to look for a loophole in VRT, but you can safely assume that the Revenue have seen it all before.

Yes, there are people living here (illegally) driving round in foreign (and I include NI in this) registered cars. However, they are subject to being stopped and having the car confiscated if found not to be complying with the regulations. This can and does happen.

I don't know about the transfer of business activity, but you can be assured that they'd look for substantial evidence that there was such a change (i.e. there was business activity before the move, and  an actual move). I know for a fact that they look for similar substantial evidence of a change of residence.

I happen to agree with you that this particular tax is outragous in several respects (e.g. anti-competitive with respect to EU trade, anti-competitive with respect to an effective price fixing cartel between Revenue and car dealers, unfair in the determination of the amounts due etc. etc.). 

However, it is the law of the land, and should be followed.


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## Nige

The Isle of Man isn't in the EU so the idea doesn't work.

In any case, a company car from another EU state must be re-registered here. A van can be used without reregistration.

EU nationals who bring in their own vehicles, are not required to re-register if they are here for a limited period and provided no Irish person is allowed to drive that vehicle.


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## BOC_ARDEE

Nige and Ang, 

Many thanks for your comments. Hate to say it though I am getting pretty sick of this country. As I was saying I am getting charged an additional €700 on "extras" for having metallic paint and leather seats as it increases market value of car, only to be told by the VRT office that they only check BMW and Mercs for extras?. So basically if you buy a Toyota with leather and metallic paint your grand?. I think that falls under some sort of discrimination bracket somewhere...


I have also noticed that the ROS website tracks cookies and IP address of PCs, as it says in their privacy policy to "Analyse trends and gather statistics". Meaning they can tell how many people are pricing VRT on various flavours of cars so they can increase the VRT on popular models. 

If there are any law heads in the house, I call on you to give your expert opinion. Its is really time that this was challenged as we are paying from 30% - 56% extra for a large piece of metal and some plastic than other 
EU states. 

The market value of a car is determined by a third party company (SIMI)
and I can't find any legislation anywhere that shows how they determine the additional costs for sunroofs, paint, leather etc. In fact it doesn't say anywhere that you will be charged extra for such items!. 

Barry


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## surfmaster

Hi Barry,

Please don't pay VRT, stand up and be counted as an EU citizen.  

1) Article 25 of EU Leglisation states that "Customs duties on imports and exports and *charges having the equivelant effect* shall be prohibeted between member states. - (A registration Tax of STG50 has already been applied on the car thatyou imported from the UK car so this cannot be charged a second time) - You should also look up Article 90 re free trade between EU member states....€9,500 isn't exactly what you would call Free Trade...

2) You should email every Vehicle registration office in the country with your VIN number to find out how much VRT you would have to pay (The reason you should use the VIN number is so that the VRO know the exact makeup of your car including all extras) - I guarentee that you wlll not receive the same quote twice and there will be at least €3,000 in the difference between the lowest and highest quote - Not exactly an open and transparent system!!!!

3) Custom officers or the Guards *cannot impound your car* unless you willingly hand over your keys - For instance if your car is worth €30,000 and you owe the revenue €9,500 the law of proporationality (EU Leglisilation) states that customs and only sieze your property worth upto €9,500 max.  This makes since as to take an item worth €30k for a debt worth €9K is something you wouldn't even see in the Sopranos.
(This is why customs officers have to use intimidation to get you to hand over your keys "willingly") - DO NOT HAND OVER YOUR KEYS)

4) Join www.irishdrivers.org to help you with backup in case customs try any dirty tricks

5) The European Court of Justice has already condemed VRT in Ireland



Regards

John


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## briancbyrne

so has anybody actually refused to hand over the keys as advised in the above web site...and if so what actions were taken by the gardai / customs?


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## surfmaster

Numerous instances, you should call the guys in the irish drivers asoc.


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## BOC_ARDEE

John / Surfmaster,

Extremely grateful for the information, I think this is vital to anyone in such a situation. Also am delighted to see that the subject of VRT is an active matter with some people and particularly motoring in general. When I started driving my insurance was £5250 punt on a car worth £1000. All in all, over my last 6 years of driving I've paid:

€18000 on insurance premiums
€15200 on VRT (not including current bill of €10500)
and about €3000 on road tax

Grand total: €36200 in 6 years!!! and thats not including the actual price of the cars.

As asked by Brian, could you possibly highlight a case that you know of where a motorist has refused to hand over the keys and outcomes or customs / VRT reponses to such a matter?. 

I really think we should all join forces here and fight this. Its something that effects us all. We should be aiming for a better Ireland and stop sitting back and taking it. It actual costs more monthly for me to run my car that it does run my home....

Barry.


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## BOC_ARDEE

Then again it actually costs more than the car a month to keep my girlfriend running.....

Whoops better keep that one quiet from the revenue or there'll be some of girlfriend tax...


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## surfmaster

Sorry about the short response last night but I was using a mobile phone to update my reply.....A bit more detail below...

A good friend of mine (who also invested in blackstones EU legislation and is a member of www.irishdrivers.org) bought a BMW 3 Series in the UK nearly a year ago now.  In April of this year 3 customs officers arrive at his house on a Saturday morning. 

They demanded that he hands over the keys as the car is illegal to drive in Ireland....followed by some more BS....some more info re tax evasion....they will call the guards if he doesn't comply.....and on and on...........so my friend just kept very calm during this lecture and refused to hand over the keys.

He told the customs guy's that he was currently in negotiations with the depatment of revenue - After about an hour the customs guys left and he hasn't heard anything since - He still is driving his BMW 320 with UK plates

---------------------------------------------------

On the flip side I have heard of a case recently where a guy in Donegal was stopped by the guards for driving an NI registared car.  He refused to hand over the keys so he was arrested.  The Irish Drivers Assoc got straight on to the Guarda Ombudsman and now the arresting guarda himself is facing being charged with false arrest - I have not had an update on the outcome as yet.


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## surfmaster

I am now trying to organise a public meeting in a hotel in Cork in August with the Irish Drivers Association to make people aware of their EU rights and explain why VRT is currently an illegal tax - If you are interested in attending please email me at surfmaster@sultansofsurf.com

John


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## kmull

Has anyone challenged the payment of VRT in the European court?
What is the EU stance on ireland seemingly ignoring the EU  on such taxes ?


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## surfmaster

For someone in Ireland to take a case to the Europena Court of Justice would cost at least €200K - Unfortunately most people with this kind of spare cash don't need to worry about VRT - The Irish Drivers Assoc are trying to build up funds for this to happen but it's a long costly process.

Below is an example from Finland........

The European Court of Justice has ruled against Finland in a case involving the the requirement that residents of Finland who import vehicles from other European Union member states need to pay for a "transfer licence" to allow them to drive their new car before Finnish registration is complete.
      The transfer licence includes a sticker tag issued by customs authorities which is placed in the window of the car, or on top of the foreign licence plate immediately upon entry into Finland.

The court ruled that Finland is in violation of the principle of free movement of goods, by requiring the payment of a transfer licence fee for a vehicle that is legally registered in another member states.


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## briancbyrne

surfmaster said:


> Sorry about the short response last night but I was using a mobile phone to update my reply.....A bit more detail below...
> 
> A good friend of mine (who also invested in blackstones EU legislation and is a member of www.irishdrivers.org) bought a BMW 3 Series in the UK nearly a year ago now. In April of this year 3 customs officers arrive at his house on a Saturday morning.
> 
> They demanded that he hands over the keys as the car is illegal to drive in Ireland....followed by some more BS....some more info re tax evasion....they will call the guards if he doesn't comply.....and on and on...........so my friend just kept very calm during this lecture and refused to hand over the keys.
> 
> He told the customs guy's that he was currently in negotiations with the depatment of revenue - After about an hour the customs guys left and he hasn't heard anything since - He still is driving his BMW 320 with UK plates
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> On the flip side I have heard of a case recently where a guy in Donegal was stopped by the guards for driving an NI registared car. He refused to hand over the keys so he was arrested. The Irish Drivers Assoc got straight on to the Guarda Ombudsman and now the arresting guarda himself is facing being charged with false arrest - I have not had an update on the outcome as yet.


 


where did you hear of this??...Ive searched the net and no trace - if a person is to refuse to hand over thier keys they would want to know on what legal footing they stand, not just heresay and speculation


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## surfmaster

briancbyrne said:


> where did you hear of this??...Ive searched the net and no trace - if a person is to refuse to hand over thier keys they would want to know on what legal footing they stand, not just heresay and speculation


 
In searching the internet have you come across any Irish person that has been legally arrested or jailed for non-payment of VRT? - Give the guys in the Irish Drivers Assoc a call.....

Legally you are protected from handing over your keys - 

These rights include your Constitutional Law Rights, your EC Law rights, your Human Law Rights and the important European Law Principle of Proportionality.  

Guardai or customs cannot legally sieze you vehicle for non-payment of VRT (European Law Principle of Proportionality) - Also, why have a judical system at all if goverment officials can dispossess you anytime anywhere?


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## ang1170

I suspect that quoting European law won't cut much ice with customs officials. Presumably they are very well versed on what they can and can't do, so they have an inherent advantage over Joe Public.Customs are able to seize goods AFAIK: the question is to what extent they can do this, and under what circumstances. What are the relevant laws?


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## briancbyrne

*here is a quote from European statutes...anybody know what the tax is which motor dealers etc face when registering a car here?...see below...at the very bottom is the link for the full article from the EU Website*


*Registration tax and European law​*Motor vehicle registration tax is not harmonised at the European level. As a result, every Member State has its own rules: some levy a full registration tax (which can be quite high), while others impose no more than a fee to cover the handling charges. The Commission finds
this unacceptable. It has sent a​proposal for a directive to the Member
States, intended to replace the motor vehicle registration tax with a tax on vehicle use, taking into account the pollution each vehicle produces. However, before such a change can come into effect, the 25 Member States have to adopt it unanimously. As things stand at the moment, Community harmonisation and European Court of Justice
case law have resulted in the following general rules:​
*
1. First registration in one Member State of a vehicle coming from another Member State.​*The European Court of Justice has ruled that a Member State has the right to levy a registration tax when it registers a vehicle for the first time, even if the vehicle has been used.
*However, Article 90 of the EC Treaty must be observed, which means that the registration tax*
*cannot exceed the amount of tax included in the price of a similar vehicle sold within the **same country (see for instance Case C-393/98 – *​_*Gomes Valente*_*).*
Therefore the Commission has taken Greece to the European Court of Justice (Case C-06/74) (see press release IP/06/41) and has opened a number of infringement procedures, in particular against Poland (see press release IP/06/918), Hungary (see press release IP/05/1279) and Cyprus
(see press release IP/06/485).​


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## surfmaster

Custom officials are well versed in itimidation and work on the basis that joe public isn't aware of their rights - That is why so many people "willingly" hand over their keys.  When you hane over your keys you are giving customs permission to sieze your vehicle.

On amazon you can get Blackstones EC Legislation at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blackstones-EC-Legislation-Statute-Book/dp/0199288186

European Law Principles of Subsidiarity and Proportionality which were added as a Protocol to EU Law by the Treaty of Amsterdam


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## legend

surfmaster,

well said... am in total agreement.. i too have gone to the uk and brought back a far better car that i would have got in ireland.... eventually paid vrt becuase of the wife going on about breaking the law.. am going back over next month buying a honda accord CDTI exec... for a bragain price compared to rip off ireland and this time i won't be paying any VRT !!!!


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## surfmaster

legend said:


> surfmaster,
> 
> well said... am in total agreement.. i too have gone to the uk and brought back a far better car that i would have got in ireland.... eventually paid vrt becuase of the wife going on about breaking the law.. am going back over next month buying a honda accord CDTI exec... for a bragain price compared to rip off ireland and this time i won't be paying any VRT !!!!


 
Legend,

Great to see some more people with a back bone - (my wife won't drive my car with the UK plates in case she gets stopped by the guardai....actually that's probabbly a good thing...)

Anyway, keep the faith and give John Lernihan in The Irishdrivers Association a call - This guy will help you out with queries anytime


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## ang1170

As I said, quoting European law, directives, current cases, whetever won't cut much ice with customs (and why should it?).What are the relevant Irish laws governing seizure of things like cars for non-payment of VRT?


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## surfmaster

ang1170 said:


> As I said, quoting European law, directives, current cases, whetever won't cut much ice with customs (and why should it?).What are the relevant Irish laws governing seizure of things like cars for non-payment of VRT?


 

Why should european law / directives cut much ice with customs? - These laws are there to protect you as an EU citizen since...Your fundamental rights!!!

Re part II of your question Scetion 40 of the 1992 Finance Act (Irish Law)is the most often act quoted by government officials however this is in direct conflict to the articels below:

Articles 25 / 90 & 14.2 of EC Legislation & the law of "Principle of Proportionality"


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## ang1170

My point was that anyone tasked with upholding the law (gardai, customs, whoever) will only work with reference to Irish law.The courts are there to protect your rights, and to sort out any conflicts with European law (or the Constitution for that matter).Unfortunately, as you've pointed out, this is kind of expensive. So much for justice.....My main point though was that there's not much point in blaming the messenger, who's only doing their job.


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## ang1170

I've just looked up the 1992 Finance Act, which states:Assuming it hasn't been ammended since, I'd say the advice given previously on this thread to refuse to hand over keys in this situation is a bit suspect, given that.....


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## ang1170

(3) Whenever an officer of the Commissioners reasonably suspects that—   ( a ) a vehicle has not been registered, or   ( b ) a vehicle has been converted and a declaration in relation to the conversion has not been made under section 131, or   ( c ) any vehicle registration tax in respect of a vehicle has not been paid,   the officer, if duly authorised by the Commissioners in that behalf and on production of his authorisation if so requested by any person affected, may detain the vehicle until such examination, enquiries or investigations as may be deemed necessary by the officer, or by another officer of the Commissioners, have been made for the purpose of determining to the satisfaction of either such officer whether or not the vehicle has been registered, the declaration aforesaid has been made or the vehicle registration tax has been paid, as may be appropriate.   (4) When a determination referred to in subsection (3) has been made in respect of a vehicle, or upon the expiry of a period of one month from the date on which the vehicle was detained under the said subsection, whichever is the earlier, the vehicle shall be seized as liable to forfeiture under the statutes which relate to duties of excise and the management thereof and any instrument relating to the duties of excise made under statute or released.


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## BOC_ARDEE

I dont know exact figures though I am pretty sure there has to be 200,000 drivers in Ireland?. My thinking is that if we could get this issue across to the public, then we could possible raise enough funding to bring a case to court. 200,000 x €1 = €200k?.

Then again, if the subject of VRT gained enough backing there could possibly be a legal firm that would offer some sort of pro-bono effort. However I doubt anyone would want to go head to head with revenue.....

Surfmaster, expert knowledge on the subject. Thank you for your continued insite. Why didn't you run for goverment!!.


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## scoobynutta

I to agree that VRT is a crude and unfair tax. I'm in the fortunate position to be living in the UK. However, if they scrapped VRT wouldn't the gov't raise taxes in other areas to compensate, perhaps hitting the less fortunate members of your country not in a position to purchase a car in the first place.


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## ang1170

BOC_ARDEE said:


> I dont know exact figures though I am pretty sure there has to be 200,000 drivers in Ireland?. My thinking is that if we could get this issue across to the public, then we could possible raise enough funding to bring a case to court. 200,000 x €1 = €200k?.


 
I think political pressure would be more effective. In the past, the govt. here has ignored EU rulings for years without doing anything about it, so it would be a slow process.

Personally I think that the SIMI, depite what they say, are actually a vested interest against change: the last thing they want is more competition. If they were really against VRT, they could insist that each purchaser of a new car make two payments, one to the dealer and one to the Revenue. There is nothing to focus the mind and attention than writing a cheque for a four or five figure sum (I've done it a few times with VRT). You'd get some political pressure building up then fairly fast....


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## surfmaster

ang1170 said:


> (3) Whenever an officer of the Commissioners reasonably suspects that— ( a ) a vehicle has not been registered, or ( b ) a vehicle has been converted and a declaration in relation to the conversion has not been made under section 131, or ( c ) any vehicle registration tax in respect of a vehicle has not been paid, the officer, if duly authorised by the Commissioners in that behalf and on production of his authorisation if so requested by any person affected, may detain the vehicle until such examination, enquiries or investigations as may be deemed necessary by the officer, or by another officer of the Commissioners, have been made for the purpose of determining to the satisfaction of either such officer whether or not the vehicle has been registered, the declaration aforesaid has been made or the vehicle registration tax has been paid, as may be appropriate. (4) When a determination referred to in subsection (3) has been made in respect of a vehicle, or upon the expiry of a period of one month from the date on which the vehicle was detained under the said subsection, whichever is the earlier, the vehicle shall be seized as liable to forfeiture under the statutes which relate to duties of excise and the management thereof and any instrument relating to the duties of excise made under statute or released.


 
Ever wonder why this has not been updated since 1992?....Because it is in direct conflict with the Law - "Principle of Portionality"

Why else are there numerous charges against the Guardai with the Guarda Ombudsman for false arrest / seizure of vehicles?

This is another perfect example of the Irish Government ignoring EC Legislation, at it would only upset an illegal revenue for the big boyz....


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## surfmaster

BOC_ARDEE said:


> I dont know exact figures though I am pretty sure there has to be 200,000 drivers in Ireland?. My thinking is that if we could get this issue across to the public, then we could possible raise enough funding to bring a case to court. 200,000 x €1 = €200k?.
> 
> Then again, if the subject of VRT gained enough backing there could possibly be a legal firm that would offer some sort of pro-bono effort. However I doubt anyone would want to go head to head with revenue.....
> 
> Surfmaster, expert knowledge on the subject. Thank you for your continued insite. Why didn't you run for goverment!!.


 
Only signed up to AAM yesterday as I really find this topic intriguing...Great point above and I know that the IDO are trying to raise funds through membership to bring a case to the ECJ.

The big problem for the government is that they are stuch between a rock and a hard place - If they get rid of VRT right now (which they have to before 2015 anyway) they will upset anyone that has just bought a new car or just paid VRT on a car brought in from another member state.

If they lost their case they could in theory have to pay back any VRT paid by the people of Ireland to the revenue from January 1st 1973....(This of course would have detrimental effects on the economy as it would bankrupt the state so it's not going to happen)


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## BOC_ARDEE

Have been speaking to a friend tonight that lives in the borders counties, he was stopped by customs and refused to give the keys over to them. They slapped an immediate €500 fine on him, took his address / details and gave him an hour to get the money from the bank. Unfortunately I didn't get great detail off him as to the threats that were made and what they would do if he refused to pay the fine...will find out more...

I completely understand that abolishing VRT would have a detremental effect on the Irish economy, maybe it could be back dated for 12 - 24 months?. I know this wouldn't be fair on everyone, but at the minute as it stands its not fair on ANYONE.

I wonder if you are self employed could VRT be claimed as an expense also?.

Anyway guys I have just registered a domain called www.abolishvrt.ie. 
I am hoping to include price comparions, case studies, an online petition
and all legislative documentation with regards to VRT on it, in the hope that we can make people more aware of whats going on and get the ball rolling against this particular tax and the government. Have some friends that work in revenue also, so will hopefully get extremely detailed information.

Site should be up and running in about 2 weeks and I would very much appreciate any information contributions or general opinions. In particular I would like to hear peoples own experiences with either the customs or guards. 

THAT GOES FOR ANYONE JUST READING THIS....

Will keep you posted on progress.

Barry.


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## surfmaster

Well done on registering the above website, count me in for membership...

Pass on my regards to your friend for not handing over his keys.
Not sure if this is the appropriate area however I really would like to know the followinhg re your friend:

_What crime did he comit that imposes an on the spot €500 fine?_
_Did he get a receipt?_
_Has he reregistered the car in the south of Ireland?_


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## z108

surfmaster said:


> The big problem for the government is that they are stuch between a rock and a hard place - If they get rid of VRT right now (which they have to before 2015 anyway) they will upset anyone that has just bought a new car or just paid VRT on a car brought in from another member state.




I'd love to see VRT abolished and hate it as much as you guys and for the same reasons but why  would it be gone by 2015 

I dont see how any tax ratified by our Dail can be illegal as long as we still have tax sovereignty. Are going to lose tax sovereignty by 2015 ? I would think its highly unlikely any government would agree to such a thing.

For example theres also the penal tax on cigarettes and alcohol which are the same principle of taking a product and singling it out from other goods. Why are cars any different ?


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## surfmaster

sign said:


> I'd love to see VRT abolished and hate it as much as you guys and for the same reasons but why would it be gone by 2015
> 
> I dont see how any tax ratified by our Dail can be illegal as long as we still have tax sovereignty. Are going to lose tax sovereignty by 2015 ? I would think its highly unlikely any government would agree to such a thing.
> 
> For example theres also the penal tax on cigarettes and alcohol which are the same principle of taking a product and singling it out from other goods. Why are cars any different ?


 
Firstly re 2015 - The Commission has taken a legislative initiative with the adoption on 5 July 2005 of a proposal for a directive with the aim of improving the functioning of the internal market and promoting sustainability1. _[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]Inter alia _[/FONT]the proposed directive provides for the abolition in a period
of 10 years of the registration tax and conversely for an increase in the annual circulation tax, in order to solve the issue of double taxation.  (This is too far away for me)

Secondly our Dail cannot or any government in a memberstate does not have total tax sovereignty.  For Example Article 25 of EU Legislation states that: Customs duties on imports and exports and charges having the equivelant effect shall be prohibited between member states.  (This stops double taxation)
​


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## geggles

Hi there,

I am about to import a car from the UK and have been reading your posts in relation to this - makes a very interesting read indeed.  You just get so sick of being ripped-off in this country.

Anyway, I was just wondering for anyone who has imported a car and hasn't paid VRT - where do you get your insurance?  I assume no Irish Insurance company will quote you for an english registered car?

Thanks again for all the info and links.  You really have been most helpful.


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## ang1170

geggles said:


> Anyway, I was just wondering for anyone who has imported a car and hasn't paid VRT - where do you get your insurance? I assume no Irish Insurance company will quote you for an english registered car?


 
Don't know if anyone who's brought a car in and not paid VRT and got away with it, but in answer to your question, Irish insurance companies will happily insure a car with UK plates. In fact, if you think about it, how else would you be able to drive the car back? They only use the registration as a means of identifying the particular car: you can also use the VIN as far as I know.

Of course, without VRT being paid, you can't register and tax the car.


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## briancbyrne

here's a reply I got from the E.U with regard to the legality of VRT
I'd encourage everybody to click on the link and make a complaint.......

Dear Mr. Byrne,


We acknowledge receipt of your message and in response to your question, we would like to inform you that the European Commission has a proposal on the Council table to end vehicle registration tax which in Ireland has proved very unpopular with many motorists. Under the proposal set out on 5 July 2005, car registration taxes would be abolished over five to 10 years, to be replaced by annual road taxes and fuel taxes (so that the tax burden would remain the same but would be related to the use of a car rather than its acquisition). Under the proposal Member States would also be required to give credit if the car had already been subjected to registration tax in another MemberState or refund a portion of registration tax if the car was permanently exported or transported to another Member State.


For further information, we suggest that you visit the web site of the Directorate-General (DG) for Taxation and Customs Union, where you will be able to access information on passenger car taxation, via the following link:
http://www.ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/other_taxes/passenger_car/index_en.htm
 

Furthermore, we invite you to contact directly the same DG, via the following on-line request form, provided on the link below:
http://www.ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/common/contact/index_en.htm
 

We also suggest that you contact directly the Irish Revenue Commissioners, via the following web site:
http://www.revenue.ie/
 

We would also like to inform you that anyone may lodge a complaint with the Commission against a Member State about any measure (law, regulation or administrative action) or practice which they consider incompatible with a provision or a principle of Community law, you can do so via the following link:
http://ec.europa.eu/community_law/complaints/form/index_en.htm
 

We hope that this information will be of use to you.


With kind regards,


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## surfmaster

geggles said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I am about to import a car from the UK and have been reading your posts in relation to this - makes a very interesting read indeed. You just get so sick of being ripped-off in this country.
> 
> Anyway, I was just wondering for anyone who has imported a car and hasn't paid VRT - where do you get your insurance? I assume no Irish Insurance company will quote you for an english registered car?
> 
> Thanks again for all the info and links. You really have been most helpful.


 
I have UK plates and insurance with AXA - I had no problem getting insurance


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## surfmaster

briancbyrne said:


> here's a reply I got from the E.U with regard to the legality of VRT
> I'd encourage everybody to click on the link and make a complaint.......
> 
> Dear Mr. Byrne,
> 
> 
> We acknowledge receipt of your message and in response to your question, we would like to inform you that the European Commission has a proposal on the Council table to end vehicle registration tax which in Ireland has proved very unpopular with many motorists. Under the proposal set out on 5 July 2005, car registration taxes would be abolished over five to 10 years, to be replaced by annual road taxes and fuel taxes (so that the tax burden would remain the same but would be related to the use of a car rather than its acquisition). Under the proposal Member States would also be required to give credit if the car had already been subjected to registration tax in another MemberState or refund a portion of registration tax if the car was permanently exported or transported to another Member State.
> 
> 
> For further information, we suggest that you visit the web site of the Directorate-General (DG) for Taxation and Customs Union, where you will be able to access information on passenger car taxation, via the following link:
> http://www.ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/other_taxes/passenger_car/index_en.htm
> 
> 
> Furthermore, we invite you to contact directly the same DG, via the following on-line request form, provided on the link below:
> http://www.ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/common/contact/index_en.htm
> 
> 
> We also suggest that you contact directly the Irish Revenue Commissioners, via the following web site:
> http://www.revenue.ie/
> 
> 
> We would also like to inform you that anyone may lodge a complaint with the Commission against a Member State about any measure (law, regulation or administrative action) or practice which they consider incompatible with a provision or a principle of Community law, you can do so via the following link:
> http://ec.europa.eu/community_law/complaints/form/index_en.htm
> 
> 
> We hope that this information will be of use to you.
> 
> 
> With kind regards,


 

Fantastic...well done on getting the above response.  Is it time to lodge a compliant with the commission?

Also I don't believe that that the VRO calculations for VRT take into account any previous registration taxes paid on second hand cars (I know for UK this is only STG50 but this is a form of double taxation)

Let us know if you are going to make a compliant


----------



## legend

brian,

well done on the above ! about time we stood up to this ridiiculous tax...

no other country would stand for it...


----------



## BOC_ARDEE

Hi folks, 

I am currently working away on the site but I need some regular contributors with regards to EU and Irish legislation on VRT as I have 
very limited knowledge, only what Ive been told.

If anyone is interested in contributing or being a point of contact for www.abolishvrt.ie, please drop me a mail info@abolishvrt.ie

Im hoping to get a highly informative website together that will opens peoples eyes to the BIGGEST scam in Europe.....

Hope everyone is keeping well..

Regards


----------



## Jaid79

BOC_ARDEE said:


> John / Surfmaster,
> 
> It actual costs more monthly for me to run my car that it does run my home....
> 
> Barry.


 
Barry in my instance, my wife and I both have cars. This means we both get bent over by Bertie and Co. Our anual costs for the cars out strip our house hold costs incl mortgage.

If the public transport system was in better shape we would only need one car or maybe none.

For example Ireland had a very good train network 50+ years ago that branched all over the island. Currently its in a very sorry state and is one of the major reason there is so much traffic and on the roads.

Sorry for getting side tracked, but moved back to Ireland 2 years ago after 6 years of been away and things still have not improved much. That includes the injustice of VRT.


----------



## surfmaster

BOC_ARDEE said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> I am currently working away on the site but I need some regular contributors with regards to EU and Irish legislation on VRT as I have
> very limited knowledge, only what Ive been told.


 
Hi Barry,

I am currently working on a letter template which anyone can use.  A friend of mine with a degree in EU Law is helping me out - The basis of the letter requests for return of VRT payments on any new cars / second hand cars purchased in the EU since 1973 - Once completed it would be great if we could get it on your website and encourage anyone that visits to enter their details and post it off.

Jaid79 has a very valid point re public transport - What is really happening to the €900 million a year generated by VRT as it certainly isn't being used to develop public transport services....


----------



## ang1170

Does anyone know where OMSP is defined? The legal definition of the term, that is.

I was going through a list of cars sold at auction last month, and out of curiosity I checked it against the Revenue's VRT calculator. There was a considerable difference between the OMSP (which was higher) and the sale price in the ones I checked.

Now I apreciate that auction cars are not necessarily the best examples of what's available, but the ones I checked were all less than 4 years old. 

I would have thought that by definition teh fgure obtained at a public auction *is* the OMSP.

Thoughts, anyone?


----------



## surfmaster

ang1170 said:


> Does anyone know where OMSP is defined? The legal definition of the term, that is.


 
I really hope someone has a more technical explaniation other than Black Magic....

I emailed 3 different vehicle registration offices with the Chassis number of a car I have, (so that they would know the exact make-up of the car inc. extras) and I received 3 different OMSP from these offices ranging from €35,000 to €46,000 for a BMW320D 2005 38,000 miles with all the extras...


----------



## s2000

I found this doc... do people think a proposal something like this will come into place?? I mean, it's still charging VRT?

*Policy Proposal Re: VRT Reform as per Budget 2007; delivered in Dáil Éireann on December 6th 2006 Con Colbert Cumann Ógra Fianna Fáil*

[broken link removed]


----------



## s2000

I have been hit by alot of VRT in the past too as I have taken in a few cars from England. However, seems that there will be a revisit of VRT in this years budget. See search link below



Does anyone know what is in the plan? Seems like we'll be paying more for bigger cars.... yes, MORE!!


----------



## skitter0

Hello all,

Very interesting reading, will be sending my €10 to irishdrivers.org & look forward to [broken link removed] once up & running, I am going over to liverpool very soon to purchase a second hand BMW. On my return I will be insuring the car with english plates.
I have two questions; what happens when road tax runs out on the car, can anyone seize the car for not having road tax?
Second how do I get a list of e-mail address for VRT offices around the country to compare the VRT for my car? Does anyone have this list?

Thanks


----------



## ang1170

skitter0 said:


> I have two questions; what happens when road tax runs out on the car, can anyone seize the car for not having road tax?


 
No, but it can be seized for non-payment of VRT. This can and does happen.

You mightn't like it, but it's the law. Quoting European laws and directives will get you nowhere. The only way this will change will be political pressure to get the law changed.



skitter0 said:


> Second how do I get a list of e-mail address for VRT offices around the country to compare the VRT for my car? Does anyone have this list?


 
Last time I checked, there's a list on the Revenue Web site.


----------



## breathnach1

www.irishdrivers.org 

This website appears to be inactive have they changed address or is it just my computer ?


----------



## johnjoeville

Hi, Just come accross this thread. I have commited to buying a jeep in the UK which I am due to collect at the weekend. The VRT on this will be €8K.

I have since been told if i dont register it till Jan VRT could reduce by 1k.

If i brought the vehicle over and put it in my shed till Jan would this be illegal. Is it illegal to have vehicle stored without paying VRT.


----------



## jimmyd

johnjoeville said:


> Hi, Just come accross this thread. I have commited to buying a jeep in the UK which I am due to collect at the weekend. The VRT on this will be €8K.
> 
> I have since been told if i dont register it till Jan VRT could reduce by 1k.
> 
> If i brought the vehicle over and put it in my shed till Jan would this be illegal. Is it illegal to have vehicle stored without paying VRT.


 
Might be illegal but it is done and people get away with it.


----------



## surfmaster

breathnach1 said:


> www.irishdrivers.org
> 
> This website appears to be inactive have they changed address or is it just my computer ?



Hi, just checked the website and it is up and running. FYI- still have my car registered in another member state and i've no intention of paying any vrt on it, i will go to jail first!


----------



## Conshine

If you buy a car in the UK and take it to Ireland, you can drive it in Ireland with UK road tax.
You can get an Irish insurance company to insure you even though it is English registered.
This is fine.

When the road tax runs out, you are unable to get the Irish Road Tax because its a UK registered car right?
Are you able to fly to the UK (or even to the North) with your English Registration document and IRISH Insurance (MOT not necessary if a new car), go to a Post Office in the UK and get a new UK tax disc?
Fly back to Ireland, put the new disc on the naw and away you go for another 12 months.
Or is this a problem?

My sister has taken a work contract in Ireland and is staying with me.
She has an Englisg reg car.
She bought the car new 6 months ago in the UK and has been in Ireland for the last 5 months.
Insurance was working out expensive with her UK insurer to insure her overseas, so she cancelled it and transferred to an Irish insurer.
Initially she was only going to stay in Ireland for 6-9 months, but has extended her work contract for another 12 months.
The car has UK road tax that will run out in another 6 months time.

Any thoughts?

Plenty of comments in this thread about not paying the VRT, standing up for your rights etc, but an untaxed car is illegal.

Or am I missing something?


----------



## surfmaster

Conshine said:


> If you buy a car in the UK and take it to Ireland, you can drive it in Ireland with UK road tax.
> You can get an Irish insurance company to insure you even though it is English registered.
> This is fine.
> 
> When the road tax runs out, you are unable to get the Irish Road Tax because its a UK registered car right?
> Are you able to fly to the UK (or even to the North) with your English Registration document and IRISH Insurance (MOT not necessary if a new car), go to a Post Office in the UK and get a new UK tax disc?
> Fly back to Ireland, put the new disc on the naw and away you go for another 12 months.
> Or is this a problem?
> 
> My sister has taken a work contract in Ireland and is staying with me.
> She has an Englisg reg car.
> She bought the car new 6 months ago in the UK and has been in Ireland for the last 5 months.
> Insurance was working out expensive with her UK insurer to insure her overseas, so she cancelled it and transferred to an Irish insurer.
> Initially she was only going to stay in Ireland for 6-9 months, but has extended her work contract for another 12 months.
> The car has UK road tax that will run out in another 6 months time.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Plenty of comments in this thread about not paying the VRT, standing up for your rights etc, but an untaxed car is illegal.
> 
> Or am I missing something?


 
The system isn't that complicated - To tax your car in the UK all you need to do is download the correct forms off the DVLA website ([broken link removed]) , complete and send (post works just fine) with your insurance certificate (Irish insurance is fine) and the correct payment to a UK Post Office that can process Motor TAX Discs.  They will then post back your new disc & ins cert to your UK address...

Hope this helps


----------



## ang1170

Conshine said:


> If you buy a car in the UK and take it to Ireland, you can drive it in Ireland with UK road tax.
> You can get an Irish insurance company to insure you even though it is English registered.
> This is fine.


 
Yes, an Irish company will insure a UK registered car - they only use the registration as a means of identifying the car.

What you say is not "fine" though: if you are living here and you import a car you must re-register it and pay the VRT. The only exceptions are where you are changing residence (or for classic cars), and there are very strict rules and checks done for this.

It makes no sense to pay UK car tax on a car that's used here.


----------



## Conshine

surfmaster said:


> They will then post back your new disc & ins cert to your UK address...


 
Thanks for the reply Surfmaster - But the thing is that she is now living in Ireland.
Long story, but she split with her partner a year ago and is planning on starting afresh in Ireland. They were renting in the UK and she bought her car in the UK a week before moving out of the rented place, then on to Ireland. The car is still registered at that address, even though there are new tenants there now. She is now living with me temporarily and is about to complete on the purchase of a flat.
This issue has all come about because I am helping with sorting out the administrative side of her life.
I am concerned that having put pretty much all her money into this flat, she may get hit with the VRT / Import duty for the car at a later date.
I also dont want her to break the law.

So a recap (with dates)

March 07 - Bought new car in England - Insured & Registered at old adress in the UK - 12 month tax disc
March 07 - Moved to Ireland
April 07 - Started a 9 month contract in Ireland - Temporarily living with brother's family (me)
April 07 - Cancelled English car insurance, as it worked out more expensive renewing the green card - so insured with an Irish company instead
August 07 - Work contract extended until late 2008. Sister decides to start looking for a place to buy.

She pays tax here, and has insurance on the car, at my address, although the car is registered at a UK address.
That  I would have thought is enough for somebody to be assumed as a resident here.
When she moves into her new place, I see the following problems:

1) The car has a UK tax disc. She cannot get an Irish tax disc because its an english registration. So when the 12 months are up, she may get into trouble
2) I *believe* she will be unable to get an english tax disc on a car that is in Ireland. Same problem after the 12 months
3) At some point, she will have to change the registration document to her new address. This will probably mean that she will have to deal with eth payment of Duty / VRT

But I am getting varying opinions from people on how to deal with this.
I dont wany my sister to pay unnecessary charges etc.


----------



## JoeHooker

Hi 

I have recently purchased a vehicle from the north, and i'm going to leave paying the VRT until Janurary, i have it in storage at the moment. The price quoted for the OMSP on the revenue site is excessive, i've checked all the websites and the same car here being sold is worth about €2000 less than OMSP, this is rediculous, the VRT is calculated on a car which has VRT already added to it, so in effect a double tax. 

Anyway an uncle told me that on the tax book it states that anyone exporting the car to another country is intitled to claim any taxes paid o the vehicle back, i did not recieve this part as the DVLNI tore this bit off, is this true has anybody heard of this and tried it.


----------



## wjc

Hi
Have english reg car to pay vrt on. Vrt around 12k on revenue website. Good few extras on car like leather, sat-nav, parking sensors, bluetooth. Now these would have been standard on model when it was bought. What is the best way to ensure that I do not have to pay more than 12k. Should I Email them with chassis no. and get a few quotes from different offices? How many of the vehicles are actually inspected? Are some vrt offices less likely to inspect car? Any suggestions from someone who has had a similar experience?


----------



## Conshine

Ang1170, the previous postings are contradicting what you say:



surfmaster said:


> Please don't pay VRT, stand up and be counted as an EU citizen.
> 
> 1) Article 25 of EU Leglisation states that "Customs duties on imports and exports and *charges having the equivelant effect* shall be prohibeted between member states. - (A registration Tax of STG50 has already been applied on the car thatyou imported from the UK car so this cannot be charged a second time) - You should also look up Article 90 re free trade between EU member states....€9,500 isn't exactly what you would call Free Trade...
> 
> 2) You should email every Vehicle registration office in the country with your VIN number to find out how much VRT you would have to pay (The reason you should use the VIN number is so that the VRO know the exact makeup of your car including all extras) - I guarentee that you wlll not receive the same quote twice and there will be at least €3,000 in the difference between the lowest and highest quote - Not exactly an open and transparent system!!!!
> 
> 3) Custom officers or the Guards *cannot impound your car* unless you willingly hand over your keys - For instance if your car is worth €30,000 and you owe the revenue €9,500 the law of proporationality (EU Leglisilation) states that customs and only sieze your property worth upto €9,500 max. This makes since as to take an item worth €30k for a debt worth €9K is something you wouldn't even see in the Sopranos.
> (This is why customs officers have to use intimidation to get you to hand over your keys "willingly") - DO NOT HAND OVER YOUR KEYS)
> 
> 4) Join www.irishdrivers.org to help you with backup in case customs try any dirty tricks
> 
> 5) The European Court of Justice has already condemed VRT in Ireland







surfmaster said:


> A good friend of mine (who also invested in blackstones EU legislation and is a member of www.irishdrivers.org) bought a BMW 3 Series in the UK nearly a year ago now. In April of this year 3 customs officers arrive at his house on a Saturday morning.
> They demanded that he hands over the keys as the car is illegal to drive in Ireland....followed by some more BS....some more info re tax evasion....they will call the guards if he doesn't comply.....and on and on...........so my friend just kept very calm during this lecture and refused to hand over the keys.
> He told the customs guy's that he was currently in negotiations with the depatment of revenue - After about an hour the customs guys left and he hasn't heard anything since - He still is driving his BMW 320 with UK plates




Surfmaster, what happened?



legend said:


> i too have gone to the uk and brought back a far better car that i would have got in ireland.... eventually paid vrt becuase of the wife going on about breaking the law.. am going back over next month buying a honda accord CDTI exec... for a bragain price compared to rip off ireland and this time i won't be paying any VRT !!!!




Legend, are you in jail?





BOC_ARDEE said:


> Hi folks,





BOC_ARDEE said:


> I am currently working away on the site but I need some regular contributors with regards to EU and Irish legislation on VRT
> www.abolishvrt.ie




Ardee, hows the site coming along?





skitter0 said:


> Hello all,





skitter0 said:


> Very interesting reading, will be sending my €10 to irishdrivers.org & look forward to http://www.abolishvrt.ie/ once up & running, I am going over to liverpool very soon to purchase a second hand BMW. On my return I will be insuring the car with english plates.
> I have two questions; what happens when road tax runs out on the car, can anyone seize the car for not having road tax?
> Second how do I get a list of e-mail address for VRT offices around the country to compare the VRT for my car? Does anyone have this list?
> 
> Thanks








surfmaster said:


> FYI- still have my car registered in another member state and i've no intention of paying any vrt on it, i will go to jail first!



Surfmaster, are you sharing a cell with Legend?


In my sisters case, the car was paid for in the UK in full.
Taxed in the UK
Insured in the UK
She moved to Ireland
Now insured in Ireland
Still has a UK tax disc
Still has UK plates
Has not paid any VRT

Will she go to jail?
Will she be able to get an Irish tax disc?
Will she go to jail if she does not get an Irish tax disc when the UK one expires?


----------



## ang1170

Conshine said:


> Ang1170, the previous postings are contradicting what you say:


 
Which bit of what I said does any of this contradict?

Just becuase the law may not be enforced (yet) in some particular circumstances, doesn't mean to say the law doesn't exist or isn't applied in other cases.

Don't get me wrong: I completely disagree with VRT for all sorts of reasons, but I for one would not recommend simply ignoring it as a particularly wise choice.


----------



## stir crazy

Sorry that I've asked this in another thread already a few days ago but this seems to be a more appropriate thread for this particular question. 



Is my sister for example allowed import a car from London (where she is working) to Ireland in her own name with english plates and an english address to drive for when she visits home ?
In such a case, Is there anything to stop me driving somebody elses (a relatives) car which I dont own after it is imported ? Hence I get to drive the car but nobody has to pay VRT.

 Some friends of a friend are doing  exactly this and they seem to be getting away with it. 
Are there any pitfalls or a downside I dont see ?


----------



## sse

Hi Stir

In the cases you have suggested you're not actually importing the car as you're leaving it on the UK plates (and, presumably, taxing it, MOTing it and insuring it in the UK). Under those circumstances you are allowed to drive in other EU states *temporarily. *In Ireland I think the limit is 6 months before you have to re-register the car. If you do not do so then you run the risk of the Revenue prosecuting you for the VRT.

Also, your UK insurance cover will only cover you for temporary use abroad. So, for example, you crash into the back of a car and an occupant of that car gets injured. Your story would quickly unravel if you can not provide any documentary proof of when you brought the car abroad (the insurance company WILL ask for this proof). In that case they would probably drop their cover down to the Legal third party minimum. You would be well advised to read the small print in your policy carefully.

To answer the other questions - yes you can get Irish insurance on a UK-registered car. However it's a bit of a dead giveaway that you're actually Irish resident (and therefore not a temporary visitor) isn't it?

I don't see how you can possibly get Irish tax on a UK-registered car as you need the registration certificate (or the form you get when you register the car, at least).

As for the tax issue, it's worth noting that France, in particular, has started clamping down heavily on the huge number of untaxed UK cars in their country (clustered round destination airports for low-cost airlines). The sooner the same happens here with all the Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian etc. deathtraps over here the better.

Incidentally, I imported a car over here on an OMSP of €11997. After an appeal this was revised to €8750 and I was refunded!

SSE


----------



## westside

SSE,

Would you mind let us know how you handled the appeal? Did you have to give some evidence that the OMSP figure was too high and if so did you have to give some proof etc?

Thanks.


----------



## Conshine

ang1170 said:


> Which bit of what I said does any of this contradict?


 
Hi Ang1170
There are lots of topics on this site that as they get longer, the more people that add their thoughts and ideas and then confusion and conflict sets in. Just look at the contradictions between some AAM users in the discussion about the First Active interest when you hit €15,000.
Anyway, nothing can be done about that and it is up to the individual to get what they can from a particular post.

This post is of particular interest to me, which is why I am trying to pick out the relevant parts that affects a family member.

There are comments like:
"Please don't pay VRT, stand up and be counted as an EU citizen."
"He told the customs guy's that he was currently in negotiations with the depatment of revenue - After about an hour the customs guys left and he hasn't heard anything since - He still is driving his BMW 320 with UK plates"
"am going back over next month buying a honda accord CDTI exec... for a bragain price compared to rip off ireland and this time i won't be paying any VRT !!!!"
"FYI- still have my car registered in another member state and i've no intention of paying any vrt on it, i will go to jail first!"
On the other hand, some are saying that you must pay this VRT, otherwise, you are breaking the law and will go to prison.

I am actally posting on behalf of my sister - she does not do computers and is happily driving around in a UK registered / Irish insured car.
She has recently bought a flat, has her PPS number, works full time in Ireland and pays tax.
So she is now resident - there is no denying that.
She will come up against a problem when her UK road tax runs out.
She will be forced to pay about 10K VRT so that she can get Irish road tax to legally drive the car here.
10K she does not have.

But the guys above are saying they do not and will not pay VRT - Are they driving UK registered cars with Irish insurance but no road tax?


----------



## legend

conshine,

no still here !!!!!!!! have the honda accord and still haven't paid the vrt, even though the gardai have been told to clamp down on the english reg plates, they are taking your details and passing onto customs... gardai can't actually do anything except scare you !! most of them to be fair will give you 10 days to clear it once you produce eveidence at loca garda station... happened to a friend last week, he had it 6 months and the vrt had dropped by a 1,000.. not bad, better in your hand than the revenue...

going back over now in june .july and buying another diesel for the lower vrt and tax rates.... are people mad buying cars here !!!!!!!!!

another friend both a 05 x3 - last weekend... will save over 10,000 once cleared.... rip off ireland is alive and well!!!!!!


----------



## legend

sorry only read the end of your message now !!!

i will pay when i have to... like i did witht he bmw and still saved over 6,000 i reckon...

you can get insurance no prob on the english plates that doesn't matter the insurance company is covering the type of car, plates are only for ID..

gardai are not interested in the tax element..

tell her drive away!!!

happy motoring


----------



## Conshine

legend said:


> gardai are not interested in the tax element..


 
Thanks for the comments !!

So although illegal, the Guards are not too bothered about a car displaying an out of date tax disc?

Will have to make sure she doesnt take the car back to the UK - She would get caught out straight away.


----------



## sse

Remember that in the UK you have to either tax the car or declare it off the road to avoid a fine under continuous registration.

I'd be very surprised if not re-registering the car in Ireland in didn't invalidate/downgrade your insurance. The basic point is that it's illegal to drive it under the circumstances described.

As regards the VRT appeal, the stages are:
1) Pay the VRT requested :-(
2) Apply for a review, providing evidence of cars for sale to support your claim
3) Wait approx. 2 months
4) Pay the cheque in 

The office (in Rosslare) appears to be swamped so they are taking approx. twice as long to process as the SLA indicates.

SSE


----------



## Conshine

sse said:


> I'd be very surprised if not re-registering the car in Ireland in didn't invalidate/downgrade your insurance. The basic point is that it's illegal to drive it under the circumstances described.


 
She got a Green Card for one month from her insurer in the UK, then cancelled it and got insured with an Irish insurer.
That shouldnt be a problem should it?


----------



## stir crazy

sse said:


> Hi Stir
> 
> In the cases you have suggested you're not actually importing the car as you're leaving it on the UK plates (and, presumably, taxing it, MOTing it and insuring it in the UK). Under those circumstances you are allowed to drive in other EU states *temporarily. *In Ireland I think the limit is 6 months before you have to re-register the car. If you do not do so then you run the risk of the Revenue prosecuting you for the VRT.
> 
> Also, your UK insurance cover will only cover you for temporary use abroad. So, for example, you crash into the back of a car and an occupant of that car gets injured. Your story would quickly unravel if you can not provide any documentary proof of when you brought the car abroad (the insurance company WILL ask for this proof). In that case they would probably drop their cover down to the Legal third party minimum. You would be well advised to read the small print in your policy carefully.
> 
> To answer the other questions - yes you can get Irish insurance on a UK-registered car. However it's a bit of a dead giveaway that you're actually Irish resident (and therefore not a temporary visitor) isn't it?
> 
> I don't see how you can possibly get Irish tax on a UK-registered car as you need the registration certificate (or the form you get when you register the car, at least).
> 
> As for the tax issue, it's worth noting that France, in particular, has started clamping down heavily on the huge number of untaxed UK cars in their country (clustered round destination airports for low-cost airlines). The sooner the same happens here with all the Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian etc. deathtraps over here the better.
> 
> Incidentally, I imported a car over here on an OMSP of €11997. After an appeal this was revised to €8750 and I was refunded!
> 
> SSE


 

Hi SSE,

If my non resident (working in London) sister manages to keep her car in the republic without paying VRT , am I legally allowed to drive her car ? The basic premise would be she imported the car for her own use when visiting home.
Am I not legally allowed drive any car I want as long as my insurance covers it ?
How are some people I know managing to drive high spec BMWs (for example) like this for the last 2 years and get away with it , are they just lucky


----------



## sse

Conshine/Stir

I'm not setting myself up as some sort of insurance expert, do not rely on anything I say! My expectation, however, is that an insurance company would look at the exact circumstances very carefully if they were to discover, for example, that an Irish resident had been driving a UK-registered car in Ireland for several months without re-registering it when they should have and they had to make a claim. I can only recommend that you check with your respective insurers and/or read your policies carefully.

As for the VRT scenarios outlined they would appear to me, as a layman, to be tax evasion. I am sure the Revenue, Garda and Courts have heard all the excuses before so it's up to the individual to decide what to do.

SSE


----------



## ang1170

Conshine said:


> There are comments like:
> "Please don't pay VRT, stand up and be counted as an EU citizen."
> "He told the customs guy's that he was currently in negotiations with the depatment of revenue - After about an hour the customs guys left and he hasn't heard anything since - He still is driving his BMW 320 with UK plates"
> "am going back over next month buying a honda accord CDTI exec... for a bragain price compared to rip off ireland and this time i won't be paying any VRT !!!!"
> "FYI- still have my car registered in another member state and i've no intention of paying any vrt on it, i will go to jail first!"
> On the other hand, some are saying that you must pay this VRT, otherwise, you are breaking the law and will go to prison.


 
These are not mutually contradictory statements (if the second one is corrected to read "...and may go to prison" rather than "..will go to prison".

People break the law all the time and offer up all sorts of defences and excuses. They may or may not get caught. When caught, they may or may not be prossecuted. If prosecuted, they may or may not be fined or imprisoned.

Where's the contradiction betwen saying "doing X is against the law" and "I've done X and I've got away with it"?

Hopefully, this clarifies things for you.


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## ang1170

On the related topic of whether or not the insurance is valid or not, it will be stated in the policy documentation exactly who is covered and in exactly what circumstances. As policies are different, there is no generic answer to the question of "am I covered". Check the policy, and if unclear, with the insurance company.


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## dreamatic

sse said:


> Hi Stir
> 
> In the cases you have suggested you're not actually importing the car as you're leaving it on the UK plates (and, presumably, taxing it, MOTing it and insuring it in the UK). Under those circumstances you are allowed to drive in other EU states *temporarily. *In Ireland I think the limit is 6 months before you have to re-register the car. If you do not do so then you run the risk of the Revenue prosecuting you for the VRT.
> 
> Also, your UK insurance cover will only cover you for temporary use abroad. So, for example, you crash into the back of a car and an occupant of that car gets injured. Your story would quickly unravel if you can not provide any documentary proof of when you brought the car abroad (the insurance company WILL ask for this proof). In that case they would probably drop their cover down to the Legal third party minimum. You would be well advised to read the small print in your policy carefully.
> 
> To answer the other questions - yes you can get Irish insurance on a UK-registered car. However it's a bit of a dead giveaway that you're actually Irish resident (and therefore not a temporary visitor) isn't it?
> 
> I don't see how you can possibly get Irish tax on a UK-registered car as you need the registration certificate (or the form you get when you register the car, at least).
> 
> As for the tax issue, it's worth noting that France, in particular, has started clamping down heavily on the huge number of untaxed UK cars in their country (clustered round destination airports for low-cost airlines). The sooner the same happens here with all the Polish, Lithuanian, Latvian etc. deathtraps over here the better.
> 
> Incidentally, I imported a car over here on an OMSP of €11997. After an appeal this was revised to €8750 and I was refunded!
> 
> SSE


 
Hi I was wondering what way did you approach the appeal process cos, I recnetly imported a car which they quoted the omsp at 5.5k which was totally ridiculous as the real omsp was max 4k I contested this and got the usual blah blah blah nothing got to do with us at this office just give us the money or we will take your car. Then follow appeal process procedures...I did this and gave the idiots 1316 eventhough I pointed out that the car was in need of repair not to mention the ridiculous omsp, any way one week later I checked the vrt calculator and the omsp stated 2800 and the vrt was around 622 which is what it should have been initally!! This was not a mistake because I rang the office where I gave them the money they demanded, they checked it out and confirmed that yes its exactly the same car I had been quoted for! but the omsp had dramatically decreased in the space of a week, and they seemed equally as shocked but again blah blah blah, thanks for the money but...appeal process! So any way, what kind of documents did you prepare for them and did it take them long to give the money back...any other advice would be great..


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## sse

Hi dreamatic

I sent them a letter together with evidence of selling prices of other cars I could find. It took around two months from sending the letter to receiving the cheque and you have to pay the requested VRT first.

I found the staff quite helpful. One point to watch is that you can, in theory, appeal if you don't get a determination after 28 days. In practice, this will mean that you go from near the top of one pile right to the bottom of another so I just hung in there.

I checked the other week and the OMSP on the revenue website had been revised down to the new OMSP value.

SSE


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## dK1NG

legend said:


> going back over now in june .july and buying another diesel for the lower vrt and tax rates.... are people mad buying cars here !!!!!!!!
> Hi,
> 
> Just a quick Q on this.
> 
> If I was to buy an 05 Audi A4 (1.9 diesel) now, I'd pay approx 3.5k VRT and 560 tax for the year.
> 
> Would there be much of a difference if I was to wait til after teh changes come into effect in July? Also, what tax rate would apply after the changes - would it be the new greener tax or the current one based on engine size??!


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## MINI80

Just Imported An Audi A4 S Line And Went To Vrt It And They Said It Would Take Several Weeks To Figure Out Value Of Exras- 18 Inch Wheels, Leather And Metallic Paint. They Kept My Cert By Mistake And When I Went Back For It Today They Refused To Give To To Me Saying I Did Not Need It Anymore. But With Mentions Of Higher Vrt I May Have To Sell It On Which I Cant Do Without The Cert? 
Are They Allowed Keep My Cert Or Are They Juust Being Pig Headed?
Thanks


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## marybheag

hey are we all going to come together and try fight this law????????  Or are we going to talk about it on this for another ten years?????


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