# can you get long covid after vaccination?



## johnwilliams (30 Jul 2021)

hearing of this breakthrough infection so a question, can a vaccinated person who gets infected get long covid  ?


----------



## odyssey06 (30 Jul 2021)

I presume it must be a possibility... though expect far fewer cases than in the unvaccinated population.

Studies would have only started on breakthrough infections.
And there are still a lot of unknowns re long covid, why some people get it and not others.
Some long covid sufferers reported that when vaccinated they felt it was almost like a treatment for it, such was their improvement


----------



## AlbacoreA (1 Aug 2021)

Can you get it after vaccination. 

Yes. But you are far less likely to get it, and if your do get it, your symptoms will be likely be very much reduced.


----------



## ClubMan (2 Aug 2021)

It seems too early to say anything definitive but this seems to be as much as we know so far from one small study in Israel...

COVID Symptoms May Linger In Some Vaccinated People Who Get Infected, Study Finds



> The study confirmed what's already known: That it's very rare for fully vaccinated people to get infected or sick with COVID-19. But it also found lingering COVID symptoms did develop in a handful of breakthrough cases.





> Regev-Yochay and others stress that the results need to be confirmed by additional research involving many more patients who are followed for much longer. It could be a false alarm, the symptoms could be much rarer, or they could resolve far more quickly than the months of symptoms that typically plague those suffering from long COVID.


----------



## AlbacoreA (2 Aug 2021)

I think we know that vaccines don't always work for some people. Usually a tiny % but even so the more people who are vaccinated the less those people to catch it


----------



## ClubMan (2 Aug 2021)

AlbacoreA said:


> I think we know that vaccines don't always work for some people. Usually a tiny % but even so the more people who are vaccinated the less those people to catch it



Yes. Which is basically what the article and study that I cited say.


----------



## AlbacoreA (2 Aug 2021)

No harm in a concise summary...


----------



## Allpartied (3 Aug 2021)

It is becoming apparent that vaccination does not offer complete protection against infection.  Probably, not even much above 50 or 60% and, not for very long either.  
The first cohort of fully vaccinated people were the health care workers, vaccinated in Jan.   There are now numbers of them getting Covid, though, hopefully, they will be mild cases and not require hospitalisation. 
Vaccination is great and everyone should get it, but we may need to accept the endemic nature of this virus. 
So, keep healthy, lose weight, eat well, excercise, don't smoke, reduce alcohol  and take care of those who are vulnerable.  The vulnerable might need booster shots, on a regular basis.   Hospitals will need to maintain a facility for supplemental oxygen treatments, mechanical ventilation and continued research into the management of Covid symptoms.  

It is still early days in the roadmap of this virus and it is possible it will fade away into a minor inconvenience, like the common cold.  That's the hope anyway.   However,  at the moment it remains a really nasty illness in the acute stage and can also result in chronic long term health problems for a sizeable number of people.


----------



## Leo (4 Aug 2021)

Allpartied said:


> It is becoming apparent that vaccination does not offer complete protection against infection.


Surely that was clear before the current vaccines were even rolled out? There was zero expectation that Covid vaccines would be 100% effective and offer life-long protection.


----------



## ClubMan (4 Aug 2021)

Allpartied said:


> It is becoming apparent that vaccination does not offer complete protection against infection.  Probably, not even much above 50 or 60% and, not for very long either.


This is simply wrong. The initial efficacy data for the different vaccines is clear and much higher than 50% in all cases. And as high as 95% in some cases.





__





						COVID-19 vaccines: authorised - European Medicines Agency
					

COVID-19 vaccines: authorised




					www.ema.europa.eu
				




Admittedly, how much/quickly protection wears off is not clearly understood yet.









						How Long Will Your Coronavirus Vaccination Last?
					

Yale Medicine experts are continuing to study how long the vaccines will provide protection—and how that could impact booster shots.




					www.yalemedicine.org


----------



## odyssey06 (4 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> This is simply wrong. The initial efficacy data for the different vaccines is clear and much higher than 50% in all cases. And as high as 95% in some cases.


Possibly the 60% relates to protection v infection \ any symptoms and the 95% relates to protection against severe symptoms / hospitalisation.


----------



## ClubMan (4 Aug 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> Possibly the 60% relates to protection v infection \ any symptoms and the 95% relates to protection against severe symptoms / hospitalisation.


No. Read the EMA info.


----------



## odyssey06 (4 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> No. Read the EMA info.


Where is the specific link to delta variant data.


----------



## Allpartied (5 Aug 2021)

ClubMan said:


> This is simply wrong. The initial efficacy data for the different vaccines is clear and much higher than 50% in all cases. And as high as 95% in some cases.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It is beginning to look like Covid is similar to flu, in that it produces an evolving set of variants, many of which are more likely to evade the current vaccines. 
As such, it may be that regular targeting of dominant strains will be needed each year.  This, unfortunately, is a game of educated risk, as it is not always possible to predict which strains will become dominant, prior to the wave of infection. Hopefully, the evolution will diminish, rather than increase, the nasty elements of this infection. 

It is too early to say if the vaccines are lifelong effective.  If they could achieve a 60% lifelong effect, that would be very good, especially for a vaccine produced so quickly. 
The length of protection also crucial.  A vaccine which produces 90% protection for 2 months is not much use.  If  a vaccine's effectiveness wanes after a couple of months, then that statistic is the one to use to demonstrate it's overall protection rate.   It seems that Pfizer is down to 38% effectiveness in preventing infection, after only 4 or 5 months.  But,  it does seem to maintain 90%  protection against serious illness for longer. 









						Israeli Data Suggests Possible Waning in Effectiveness of Pfizer Vaccine (Published 2021)
					

The new numbers still show overwhelmingly strong protection against severe disease but diminished effectiveness against infection.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Tintagel (10 Aug 2021)

I heard yesterday that breakthrough infections in fully vaccinated people accounted for 20% of new infections.

This seems very high?

Is there data to tell us if these were people who got the AstraZeneca vaccine or one of the others?


----------



## Leo (10 Aug 2021)

Tintagel said:


> Is there data to tell us if these were people who got the AstraZeneca vaccine or one of the others?


From the outset, AstraZeneca is reported to be 67% effective against the Delta variant compared to Pfizer's 88%, but I haven't seen any comprehensive data, and certainly none in an Irish context. Until supply constraints are a thing of the past they may be reluctant to publish data on what option vaccinated people who contract Covid took as it may result in people refusing all but what they perceive as the most effective option.

We also know that efficacy reduces with time. From some of what I've seen, Moderna may provide the longest lasting, but they and Pfizer are signaling that booster shots will be required.


----------



## joe sod (10 Aug 2021)

The AZ vaccine is a lot more effective against delta variant than the Johnson vaccine, not sure about the Russian vaccine but the sinovac vaccine is particularly ineffective against the delta variant which explains why new outbreak in China. But the development of the RNA technology by biontech is a game changer the Chinese will need to use the Pfizer vaccine or buy the license to produce it themselves


----------



## odyssey06 (10 Aug 2021)

joe sod said:


> The AZ vaccine is a lot more effective against delta variant than the Johnson vaccine, not sure about the Russian vaccine but the sinovac vaccine is particularly ineffective against the delta variant which explains why new outbreak in China. But the development of the RNA technology by biontech is a game changer the Chinese will need to use the Pfizer vaccine or buy the license to produce it themselves


I wonder if that's largely down to AZ being double dose versus Johnson being single dose.


----------



## joe sod (10 Aug 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> I wonder if that's largely down to AZ being double dose versus Johnson being single dose.


Maybe but Pfizer, moderna and AZ vaccines are the 3 best vaccines against the delta variant. The Chinese sinovac looks like its not working against the delta variant now, there is no data on how effective it is and the Chinese are not prepared to allow it to be scrutinized by international peer reviewed analysis. Like the Australians and new Zealanders the Chinese elimination approach is facing its biggest test now with the delta variant.


----------



## Tintagel (11 Aug 2021)

Leo said:


> Until supply constraints are a thing of the past they may be reluctant to publish data on what option vaccinated people who contract Covid took as it may result in people refusing all but what they perceive as the most effective option.


Yet, we have been told by government that they will always be open and truthful to us regarding Covid. As someone who only had the choice of the  AstraZeneca vaccine, I would be concerned and actively looking for a booster to provide further protection.


----------



## Susie2017 (11 Aug 2021)

The current pfizer was manufactured to deal with the original Wuhan strain. There is no point in getting a booster unless pfizer adjust the cocktail ( I am not aware of any definite plans by Pfizer to do this). However I would urge you to watch Prof Andrew Pollards (of the Oxford Vaccine group)  interview in full yesterday. Not the versions on channel 4 or skynews in which they edited the key messages. Herd immunity is impossible. A new variant will inevitably emerge which will be better at transmitting. The impression was he was throwing in the towel on the vaccine. Viruses continuously mutate. The advantageous strains evolve with the best characteristics e.g tranmissibility or antibody avoidance. In my view the vaccines cannot be manufactured and administered to suit the variants fast enough. We are still in a situation where much of the third world is unvaccinated. To start giving out booster shots in that context would be unethical in my view. However there are other unethical approaches going on right now so it's entirely possible that governments may decide to give third shots of the original version. In my view we need several good treatments. Vaccines are not going to provide a solution for all of society.


----------



## NotMyRealName (11 Aug 2021)

All the talk about efficacy is amusing in light of real world experience....
It reminds me of this ......

“According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way that a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyways. Because bees don't care what humans think is impossible.”

So follows our recent, small sample,real-world experience.....
2 Adults fully vaxxed, Pfizer, by mid June
Teen 1 J+J vaxxed 1 shot by mid July
Teen 2 too young to register for Vax ( now registered)
Teen 2 and 4 friends contract virus in a daytime social,alcohol-free, environment ( I include this info to dampen any righteous indignation)
Teen 2 has symptoms and is housebound and ill etc for 2 weeks. Now testing negative. 
Adult 1 develops symptoms,tests positive and is ill for approx 1 week. Now testing negative. 
Adult 2 develops symptoms,tests positive and is ill for approx 1 week. Not testing negative yet. 
Teen 1 still symptom-free and taking antigen tests daily. 

Vaccines do NOT prevent you from contracting Covid, that's not their purpose. 
Get vaccinated.


----------



## odyssey06 (11 Aug 2021)

Susie2017 said:


> The current pfizer was manufactured to deal with the original Wuhan strain. There is no point in getting a booster unless pfizer adjust the cocktail ( I am not aware of any definite plans by Pfizer to do this). However I would urge you to watch Prof Andrew Pollards (of the Oxford Vaccine group)  interview in full yesterday. Not the versions on channel 4 or skynews in which they edited the key messages. Herd immunity is impossible. A new variant will inevitably emerge which will be better at transmitting. The impression was he was throwing in the towel on the vaccine. Viruses continuously mutate. The advantageous strains evolve with the best characteristics e.g tranmissibility or antibody avoidance. In my view the vaccines cannot be manufactured and administered to suit the variants fast enough. We are still in a situation where much of the third world is unvaccinated. To start giving out booster shots in that context would be unethical in my view. However there are other unethical approaches going on right now so it's entirely possible that governments may decide to give third shots of the original version. In my view we need several good treatments. Vaccines are not going to provide a solution for all of society.



I'm not sure what edits you refer to but this is one of his actual statements:
"We're not seeing a problem with breakthrough severe disease... If there was any falloff in protection, it is something which will happen gradually, and it will be happening at a point *where we can pick it up and be able to respond*."

By respond here I assume he means come out with a tweaked vaccine booster to counter the variant. And we should be much quicker next time as the vaccine production capacity is in place. Coming up with a vaccine recipe was quick last time. It's the testing and production that was slow first time round.

There is lots of research going into treatments at the moment but there is no guarantee there of a magic bullet either.

I don't disagree with his point:
"Doses that are available that could be used for boosting or for childhood programmes are much better deployed for people who will die over the next six months rather than that very unlikely scenario of a sudden collapse in the programmes in countries that are highly vaccinated."

The debate about 'reaching herd immunity' or even what is herd immunity seems to have gone into a bit of a rabbit hole:
_Giving evidence to MPs on Tuesday, Prof Sir Andrew Pollard said the fact that vaccines did not stop the spread of Covid meant reaching the threshold for overall immunity in the population was “mythical”. “The problem with this virus is [it is] not measles. If 95% of people were vaccinated against measles, the virus cannot transmit in the population,” he told the all-party parliamentary group (APPG) on coronavirus. “The Delta variant will still infect people who have been vaccinated. And that does mean that anyone who’s still unvaccinated at some point will meet the virus … and we don’t have anything that will [completely] stop that transmission.”









						Delta variant renders herd immunity from Covid ‘mythical’
					

Head of Oxford Vaccine Group rules out overall immunity, but also questions need for booster jabs




					www.theguardian.com
				



_


----------



## Allpartied (11 Aug 2021)

Susie2017 said:


> The current pfizer was manufactured to deal with the original Wuhan strain. There is no point in getting a booster unless pfizer adjust the cocktail ( I am not aware of any definite plans by Pfizer to do this). However I would urge you to watch Prof Andrew Pollards (of the Oxford Vaccine group)  interview in full yesterday. Not the versions on channel 4 or skynews in which they edited the key messages. Herd immunity is impossible. A new variant will inevitably emerge which will be better at transmitting. The impression was he was throwing in the towel on the vaccine. Viruses continuously mutate. The advantageous strains evolve with the best characteristics e.g tranmissibility or antibody avoidance. In my view the vaccines cannot be manufactured and administered to suit the variants fast enough. We are still in a situation where much of the third world is unvaccinated. To start giving out booster shots in that context would be unethical in my view. However there are other unethical approaches going on right now so it's entirely possible that governments may decide to give third shots of the original version. In my view we need several good treatments. Vaccines are not going to provide a solution for all of society.



If Covid becomes endemic and that looks a real possibility, then the healthcare system needs to adjust.

There are a lot of good  practices which have taken place in the acute hospitals and in nursing homes which need to continue.  The streaming of infected patients, high quality PPE, employment of staff to constantly clean down areas of patient contact, all these things should, probably, have been in place before the pandemic.  They should certainly not be scaled back.

Plentiful access to oxygen supplements for hospitalised patients and ability to scale up ICU, when required.

There also needs to be a proper isolation programme for vulnerable people, fully funded by the state.


The best advice, if Covid is going to be unavoidable, is to lose weight, eat well, do some excercise and stop smoking. 
But that's always been the best advice.

Oh, and get vaccinated.


----------



## Leo (11 Aug 2021)

Tintagel said:


> Yet, we have been told by government that they will always be open and truthful to us regarding Covid. As someone who only had the choice of the  AstraZeneca vaccine, I would be concerned and actively looking for a booster to provide further protection.


The government don't have the data required to publish an accurate review here. Saying nothing is better than making stuff up.


----------



## Ceist Beag (11 Aug 2021)

Allpartied said:


> The best advice, if Covid is going to be unavoidable, is to lose weight, eat well, do some excercise and stop smoking.
> But that's always been the best advice


Even though, as you say it's always the best advice, it's still good to point it out.


----------

