# Dangerous Sulky Race Cork-Mallow Rd: Are these Travellers above the law?



## monagt (10 May 2012)

> A TRAVELLERS’ group has called for all parties to come together to reconcile the traveller tradition of road racing and respect for the law of the land.



And I thought the law of the land was exactly that .........




> A spokesperson for Pavee Point says this kind of racing is part of the traveller tradition, but is unregulated.





> He called on Traveller groups, gardaí and local authorities to come together to find a resolution which, he says, will “respect both traveller culture and the law of the land”.



Pavee Point is funded by the taxpayer.................. Stop giving it my tax.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/traveller-group-seeks-solution-as-dangerous-sulky-race-on-main-cork-to-mallow-road-goes-viral-3103950.html

Why was only one arrested?


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## Mucker Man (10 May 2012)

Why respect the law when there is no consequences?

Pavee Point have been rolling out the ''it's our culture'' for years and worse of all getting away with it.


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## oldnick (10 May 2012)

I suspect that this thread ,like any discussion on Travellers and other so-called ethnic groups on AAM ,will soon be stopped.

So, is it not better to just agree that most people despise Travellers with varying degrees of intensity. The more genteel members of public avoid making nasty comments (at least in public) but hope that they don't ever have to interact with Travellers nor want them to settle/camp anywhere near us.

There is also a small minority of the public who genuinely feel that Travellers are really a down-trodden ethnic minority trying to preserve their culture, and that the tax-payers of Ireland should continually subsidise their way of life and not express any nasty racist opinion.

I won't say where I stand regarding Travellers because my (asian) wife says that i sound like a racist thug if I do; she, like the do-gooding leftie-liberals on this subject, can't accept one is judging on behaviour not  so-called ethnicity.

So, whatever negative comments anyone makes on this thread will be misinterpreted as racist.


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## Latrade (10 May 2012)

Yup enforce the laws of the land. 

Be nice if they could do that near me too where it's the local boy racers who use a local road as an evening drag race venue without any intervention by Gardai. Or even spending a night in Letterkenny where each evening is a recreation of The Fast and The Furious without any real policing.

That's beside the point I'd agree and the "it's our culture" argument is redundant. I do wonder just how difficult it would be to organise an event officially so that a part of a road could be temporarily closed off, seems half the danger to others (rather than themselves) stems from having to try to covertly organise events. 

Finding a solution makes more sense as the racing will continue and will continue to put others at risk and continue to eat up gardai resources.


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## The_Banker (10 May 2012)

There are channels to go down to organise that. People who organise rallys, cycle races and marathons do this.
They dont just race down roads willy nilly because they want to. 

This is happening on roads around Cork all the time but it has been brought to national attention because someone was stupid enough to put it on youtube.

Lots of faces in that video and car regs on display. There is no reason why their cant be mass arrests.


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## Firefly (10 May 2012)

Latrade said:


> Yup enforce the laws of the land.
> 
> Be nice if they could do that near me too where it's the local boy racers who use a local road as an evening drag race venue without any intervention by Gardai. Or even spending a night in Letterkenny where each evening is a recreation of The Fast and The Furious without any real policing.
> 
> ...


 
There could be money in something like that


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## Superman (10 May 2012)

Firefly said:


> There could be money in something like that


Yeah - but who is paying?

I'm happy to see some form of organised safe racing. I strongly suspect I know who will pay for it though - and if my suspicions are correct, I'm not very happy.

Why is it also for the local authority to organise something for the travellers - and not for the travellers to organise said safe racing - as implied by the Pavee Point guy on the radio this morning?

I also want to know why there aren't about 30 arrests arising from that video.


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## Firefly (10 May 2012)

Superman said:


> Yeah - but who is paying?


 
I was tinking something official that might even promote awareness of Traveller culture and draw tourists.

A smaller version of this perhaps?  [broken link removed]


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## Thirsty (10 May 2012)

You could argue that the Ploughing Championships are 'part of our culture' that doesn't mean that I can take a horse and plough to the green playing area outside my house...


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## DB74 (10 May 2012)

Firefly said:


> I was *tinking* something official that might even promote awareness of Traveller culture and draw tourists.



Are you a tinker?


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## monagt (10 May 2012)

> Sulky race Travellers likely to be prosecuted – gardai





> http://www.independent.ie/national-...s-likely-to-be-prosecuted-gardai-3104349.html



There should be multiple arrest and driving bans as this was complete disregard for laws or safety.

Culture - Indeed

The Garda are afraid of them, in the US there would be armed State Troopers/Sheriffs Deputies all over them


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## Firefly (10 May 2012)

DB74 said:


> Are you a tinker?


 
I was hoping it went un-noticed


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## Purple (10 May 2012)

DB74 said:


> Are you a tinker?



No, he just tinks he's a tinker.


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## ninsaga (10 May 2012)

'..respect traveller culture'....

... I'm not a traveller, but would a traveller group back me up if i decided to do sulky racing down the road. We Irish in general had a major culture of drink driving over the years - it was actually accepted to a degree not so long ago. So should the state be asked to 'respect our traditional culture of drink driving' - of course not - so what makes this any different.

They are not above the law and should not be treated as such. Someone on the oncoming traffic could have been hurt or killed with the carry on. What would traveller groups say in that instance.

The judgement here should be severe - there was no regard for the safety of others whatsoever - blatant disregard.

even if there was a minor crash - good luck trying to get a claim sorted!


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## Firefly (11 May 2012)

Purple said:


> No, he just tinks he's a tinker.


 
Nice one boss!


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## Delboy (11 May 2012)

is there really a tradition of this type of horse racing anywhere in Ireland, by any culture?
can't say I've ever heard of it

agree with comment above about the US and state troopers etc and how'd they'd deal with a situation like this. It'll continue to happen while the criminals know they won't be punished


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## Vanilla (11 May 2012)

A lot of racing goes on around Limerick and Cork, I believe. I also hear that prize money ( or betting on them)  is large- in the tens of thousands. I know someone who says he won 60k on a race ( as the winner of the race), but unfortunately he's not the type of person you could say could be trusted to be telling the truth.


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## Purple (12 May 2012)

Vanilla said:


> A lot of racing goes on around Limerick and Cork, I believe. I also hear that prize money ( or betting on them)  is large- in the tens of thousands. I know someone who says he won 60k on a race ( as the winner of the race), but unfortunately he's not the type of person you could say could be trusted to be telling the truth.



Yea, but if he's done for the race in Cork at least he'll pay in cash


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## ninsaga (12 May 2012)

more of the same carry on here - wonder if any one was was prosecuted on the back of this one...have my doubts


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## Protocol (12 May 2012)

Should the Garda shoot the horses to prevent possible road accidents?


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## Leper (13 May 2012)

Travellers are not above the law. I reckon of any ethnic group they are the ones who will be prosecuted. 

On the other hand many of them do not do themselves any favours. Then there are the reality tv programmes like My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding which leave itinerants open to public scorn.

Very few itinerants make it to university.  Many of the settled community do make it to university and take every grant available even when honest entitlement does not exist.  It is very easy to sit back and criticize the Travelling Community and have great laughs pointing fingers etc from a safe distance.


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## blueband (13 May 2012)

Protocol said:


> Should the Garda shoot the horses to prevent possible road accidents?


 ah sure why not go the whole way and shoot the travelers as well!


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## oldnick (13 May 2012)

Most people would prefer that option, except substitute "instead" rather than "as well"


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## Delboy (13 May 2012)

Leper said:


> Travellers are not above the law. I reckon of any ethnic group they are the ones who will be prosecuted.
> 
> On the other hand many of them do not do themselves any favours. Then there are the reality tv programmes like My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding which leave itinerants open to public scorn.
> 
> Very few itinerants make it to university.  Many of the settled community do make it to university and take every grant available even when honest entitlement does not exist.  It is very easy to sit back and criticize the Travelling Community and have great laughs pointing fingers etc from a safe distance.



a very easy going take on travellers there....do you have much interaction with them in real life I wonder?


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## ninsaga (13 May 2012)

.... personally yes - on many occasions - and I can't say any of them were to pleasant.... ranging from 
- intimidation of an elderly relative to extract €2000 for throwing a few shovels of tarmac on the driveway (a particularly nasty incident!)
- horses roaming freely in public areas incl roadways
- our 'friends' on the sulkys
- the discarding of litter/rubbish 
- witnessed the 'entourage' moving into business parks over weekends and requesting money from the businesses in order to move out
... to mention but a few


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## Leper (13 May 2012)

Delboy said:


> a very easy going take on travellers there....do you have much interaction with them in real life I wonder?


 
To be honest, I do not know many Travellers.  However, I know some former Travellers.  These that I know had to handle every  kind of situation from blatant racism to being the joke of the day.  

Let's swop places with Travellers for a moment.  You apply for a job and know full well you wont even get to the interview stage.  If you are lucky enough you do get the job, but only on prolonged probation.  Your new work colleagues don't want to know you let alone trust you.  You prove yourself worthy of the job and eventually you are established.  Anything that goes wrong makes you an easy target.  Add in personal relationships and you are into a no-go area.

I know I said earlier that many Travellers do not do themselves many favours.  The media is always ready to point the finger and unfortunately there are some Travellers who are willing to play along not aware of what the media wants to promote.  Travellers are on a hiding to nothing and do not have agents to represent them.  You only have to look on a few previous posts on this subject to see.  If the same posters said the same things about other minority communities in Ireland there would be uproar on here.

Those Travellers who become educated and integrate with the settled community are never recognised for what they have achieved and remain despised.  They are not a draw on the taxpayer. They cannot visit pubs, have difficulty in acquiring a venue for a weddings etc.

I am not saying they are all saints but neither is everybody in the settled community courting sainthood.


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## Complainer (13 May 2012)

monagt said:


> Pavee Point is funded by the taxpayer.................


Where did you get this from?


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## The_Banker (13 May 2012)

Complainer said:


> Where did you get this from?


 

Look at page 67 of this Pavee Point report from 2005. 
It recieved the majority of its funding from various government agencies. 36% came from private donations.

[broken link removed]

So I would consider this government funded. Taxpayers money.


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## delgirl (14 May 2012)

8 years for a Dublin business man for importing Garlic and not paying tax and this creature will be out in 3 years after killing a beautiful young girl while blind drunk and banned from driving.

He has 29 previous convictions, most of them motoring offences, but also for theft and spamspamspam possession.

Are judges more lienient when sentencing travellers?


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## Firefly (14 May 2012)

delgirl said:


> 8 years for a Dublin business man for importing Garlic and not paying tax and this creature will be out in 3 years after killing a beautiful young girl while blind drunk and banned from driving.
> 
> He has 29 previous convictions, most of them motoring offences, but also for theft and spamspamspam possession.
> 
> Are judges more lienient when sentencing travellers?


 
From that article

"He said he had consumed about 25 alcoholic drinks in less than six anda-half hours on the night of the incident."

So what? Why should drink be used as an excuse....is he not...an ADULT??


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## oldnick (14 May 2012)

I  don't understand why some posters can't accept that in Ireland (and to a lesser degree in UK) that :-

- Travellers can do what they like with only the most heinous of crimes being (lightly) punished. 

- If people object to certain aspects of their behaviour, or  perhaps the siting of a halting site next to one's home, or even the complete destruction of a vast swathe of river-side park-land (as my residents association did some years ago) then those objectors are nasty racists. 

- The only acceptable comments are those concerning the preservation of their culture, how they are subjected to relentess persecution and how ignorant people are about the Travelling community.

- We must continue to pay for them ,whether with social welfare payments, nontaxation of vehicles, cost of halting sites, payment of grants to their organisations etc etc

If one resigns oneself to accepting those points and many other concerning Travellers then one is less likely to get irate. 

Being involved in a residents association (which achieved some success if many fields except one concenring this community)  I realised that there is little one can do unless one is prepared to be branded as an intolerant racist and, worse, suffer threats of violence from members of that community.


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## blueband (14 May 2012)

we are always going to have travellers, every country has them in one form or another, best just get used to it.


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## Delboy (14 May 2012)

blueband said:


> we are always going to have travellers, every country has them in one form or another, best just get used to it.



they need to get 'used to it' also and live under the same laws as the rest of us


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## Delboy (14 May 2012)

Leper said:


> To be honest, I do not know many Travellers.  However, I know some former Travellers.  These that I know had to handle every  kind of situation from blatant racism to being the joke of the day.
> 
> Let's swop places with Travellers for a moment.  You apply for a job and know full well you wont even get to the interview stage.  If you are lucky enough you do get the job, but only on prolonged probation.  Your new work colleagues don't want to know you let alone trust you.  You prove yourself worthy of the job and eventually you are established.  Anything that goes wrong makes you an easy target.  Add in personal relationships and you are into a no-go area.
> 
> ...



Travellers do have agents....Pavee Point and plenty of other NGO's trying to posh their agenda (all of course to get a bigger slice of the taxpayer funding cake for themselves).

I know settled Travellers. Not despised at all by the locals where they live. Treated the same as everyone else because they live the same lives as everyone else...work, obey the law, drink in the same pubs without smashing them up or their own houses afterwards etc etc).
The 'mobile' Travellers I know, mainly from coming across them in local pubs/trying to sell goods/services on a door to door basis ....bad news the majority of them. Always cause trouble in pubs when there's more than 4 or 5 of them around, trying to sell 'dodgy' items and involved in crime. They bring so much of the bad reputation on themselves, and to be honest, I don't think it bothers them at all

You say you don't know many travellers ....I think perhaps you don't know many settled ones either


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## ninsaga (14 May 2012)

blueband said:


> we are always going to have travellers, every country has them in one form or another, best just get used to it.



...... eeehhhhh.... No.

There is no shortage of cash with many of the travelling community. Everything bought in cash.... caravans etc.... what's the source of income, do they pay any taxes, what contributions do they make to society and upkeep of the areas that they occupy.... its the city and county councils collect their refuse for free... its my tax euro's that is paying for all of this.

If i walk the dog down the street I get a €150 fine if it craps on the footpath and I don't clean it up.

How much is the fine for horseshsh1t on the road and who's going to enforce it.

as long as you get individuals, groups and organisations creating the 'oh thats' racist' with regard to any comments being made about the travelling community then it will just go on and on- - which is deplorable in my opinion.


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## MrMan (14 May 2012)

Its only a small minority giving them a bad name; I must be fierce unlucky so as I tend to only bump in to this minority within a minority. 
I have worked in shops where they blatantly try to steal, and when caught they brazenly make a quick accusation of defamation as they casually walk out the door as if nothing has happened. The only difference that settled/ordinary folk make when trying to rob things is that they are at least bothered about getting caught.

I think it's fair to say at this point that they could put their culture in a museum, and consign it to history, because the traveller life belongs to a different time and is unrecognisable from what is on show today.


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## blueband (14 May 2012)

Delboy said:


> they need to get 'used to it' also and live under the same laws as the rest of us


 well to be fair not all 'the rest of us' obey the law all the time


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## ninsaga (14 May 2012)

blueband said:


> well to be fair not all 'the rest of us' obey the law all the time



... and this is my point... in many instances where wrongs are highlighted about travellers, that it gets blurred over by people who then call out the fact that other communities are not perfect either - therefore there is a unwarranted acceptance of what they do! Right?


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## DB74 (14 May 2012)

blueband said:


> well to be fair not all 'the rest of us' obey the law all the time



That's true but you don't get "Scanger Point" coming out saying that it is their culture to race souped up Mitsubishi Colts on Ireland's back roads and can we not come to some arrangement with the law-of-the-land which will allow the Scangers of Ireland to continue their dying tradition!

Do ya?


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## ninsaga (14 May 2012)

.....exactly!


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## Bronte (15 May 2012)

When did sulky races become part of their culture.  When I was a child I never saw this, it was only in the last 20 years that I've seen them on the roads with these 'contraptions'.


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## Firefly (15 May 2012)

db74 said:


> that's true but you don't get "scanger point" coming out saying that it is their culture to race souped up mitsubishi colts on ireland's back roads and can we not come to some arrangement with the law-of-the-land which will allow the scangers of ireland to continue their dying tradition!
> 
> Do ya?


 
lol!


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