# Bank of Ireland to close branches



## Leper (1 Mar 2021)

Heard on News Headlines early today:- Bank of Ireland to close about 90 branch outlets. Not good news.


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## Johnno75 (1 Mar 2021)

Leper said:


> 90


Independent has the number at 103


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2021)

It's terrible news.

I haver the same reaction to when I heard the news that Guinness was laying off all its coopers in the 1950s. It's crazy, they should have kept them on, even if they were not needed.

And the invention of the printing press was really no excuse in the 1400s for the monasteries to get rid of their scribes.

We should not allow technology to change the world. We should not allow the banks that we bailed out and part own to close branches just for the sake of being efficient and profitable. 

Let's ban all electronic money so that people are forced back to using cash and cheques.

Brendan


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## Leper (1 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's terrible news.
> 
> I haver the same reaction to when I heard the news that Guinness was laying off all its coopers in the 1950s. It's crazy, they should have kept them on, even if they were not needed.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that sympathetic post Brendan. I'm sure all the school leavers and college graduates and their parents will be sympathetic with you as a result of less jobs etc being available to them.

. . . and not only that, I'm sure those in BOI who have their jobs under threat will be referring money spending clientele seeking financial advice in your direction.


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## Thirsty (1 Mar 2021)

Whilst I agree to some extent with Brendan; I would argue that better strategic planning would have enabled the company to reduce the branch network over time.

Thus ensuring that staff could be reduced/ retired/ redeployed over time.

Announcements like this, to me, show that senior managers weren't doing their job.


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## Peanuts20 (1 Mar 2021)

88 in the South, 15 in the North. Full list due at 10am once staff have been informed.


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

Leper said:


> Thanks for that sympathetic post Brendan. I'm sure all the school leavers and college graduates and their parents will be sympathetic with you as a result of less jobs etc being available to them.
> 
> . . . and not only that, I'm sure those in BOI who have their jobs under threat will be referring money spending clientele seeking financial advice in your direction.



Any school leaver or graduate who has gone into retail banking over recent years hardly deserves much sympathy.

It’s akin to investing in mid-price high street clothing for women or rural pubs.


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## Protocol (1 Mar 2021)

The initial news says that most of these branches are "self-service" branches:

"The branches closing are predominately self-service locations which do not offer a counter service, Bank of Ireland said. The branches are due to close from the end of September."

I am not aware of this type of branch, what exactly are they?

Branches around the country, in towns, typically have counter staff.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (1 Mar 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Whilst I agree to some extent with Brendan; I would argue that better strategic planning would have enabled the company to reduce the branch network over time.



That would be the opposite of strategic. It's much simpler to do it all in one go than to have a constant drip-drip of small closures.


It's better politics both internally and externally.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2021)

Thirsty said:


> I would argue that better strategic planning would have enabled the company to reduce the branch network over time.



I have always wondered about this when companies announce 300 job cuts but they are not closing any actual operation.  It sounds as if they were inefficient for years.

In 2018, BoI was going in the opposite direction:

This is what she said to the Oireachtas in 2018 

_The third part of our transformation programme is our business model – how we are structured, and how we serve our customers. 

I want to ensure that digital service is combined with a physical presence and personal touch. This is particularly true for Bank of Ireland where we are committed to maintaining our extensive branch network which currently operates in 265 locations in communities across Ireland, the largest reach of any bank.

 I have listened carefully to feedback from our customers since taking up my role as CEO. It is clear we need to improve the service we provide. Amongst a number of initiatives, we are now increasing our full-service branches by more than 160% - from 61 to 164. 

These branches will have a counter service during the full day, not just morning hours. We are also increasing the number of employees in our branches and contact centres – this is again in response to customer feedback on the need for more accessible support for day to day banking._

Brendan


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## Purple (1 Mar 2021)

Around 200 staff will be effected. They will be redeployed and/or offered voluntary redundancy. That means each branch employs an average of less than 2.5 people. This is a continuation of the inevitable increase in the move to electronic banking.  
The total transactions which take place in all of the branches combined are about the same as three days of electronic transactions through the banks website. 
An Post will be taking over many of the face to face banking functions. Since An Post is subsidised by the exchequer that means that BoI will now be subsidised by the exchequer.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (1 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> Since An Post is subsidised by the exchequer that means that BoI will now be subsidised by the exchequer.



The vast majority of post offices are operated on a franchise basis on commercial terms.

AFAIK only 50 or so are directly run by An Post.


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## Protocol (1 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> An Post will be taking over many of the face to face banking functions. Since An Post is subsidised by the exchequer that means that BoI will now be subsidised by the exchequer.



An Post is subsidised?

Is it?

I am not aware of any direct subsidy to An Post?

Are you referring to the DSP contract?


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## Purple (1 Mar 2021)

Protocol said:


> Are you referring to the DSP contract?


Yes, it accounts for more than a third of their revenue.


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## fidelcastro (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Any school leaver or graduate who has gone into retail banking over recent years hardly deserves much sympathy.
> 
> It’s akin to investing in mid-price high street clothing for women or rural pubs.


Must be great to have your wisdom Gordon. 

Wait, yes I know the answer. Let's all invest in stocks & shares for perpetuity ... 6% yield and all that. The Wisdom of  Soloman as central banks print money to inflate assets for the vulture funds.  What wisdom... creativity... 

Wait oh, my sons and daughters, friends and family starting off ? Where should they live and what employment can they expect... Sod them, Im all right Jack...


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

fidelcastro said:


> Must be great to have your wisdom Gordon.
> 
> Wait, yes I know the answer. Let's all invest in stocks & shares for perpetuity ... 6% yield and all that. The Wisdom of  Soloman as central banks print money to inflate assets for the vulture funds.  What wisdom... creativity...
> 
> Wait oh, my sons and daughters, friends and family starting off ? Where should they live and what employment can they expect... Sod them, Im all right Jack...



That’s life. If someone is starting off now and they’re pursuing a career as a bank teller, how can they deserve any sympathy?

I don’t think there’s any wisdom at all in avoiding certain sectors that are clearly screwed.

We’re not even talking about callous dismissal of the plight of buggy whip vendors post the introduction of the automobile. We’re talking about people going into buggy whip retail when there are cars driving around!


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## Johnno75 (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> That’s life. If someone is starting off now and they’re pursuing a career as a bank teller, how can they deserve any sympathy?
> 
> I don’t think there’s any wisdom at all in avoiding certain sectors that are clearly screwed.


The benefit of wisdom, experience and a broad perspective on life and the economy is a great thing. Alas, usually only held by those with life experience.

The reality is that the average 18-22 year old school-leaver and college graduate probably doesn’t have the benefit of such perspective.


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

Jayom75 said:


> The benefit of wisdom, experience and a broad perspective on life and the economy is a great thing. Alas, usually only held by those with life experience.
> 
> The reality is that the average 18-22 year old school-leaver and college graduate probably doesn’t have the benefit of such perspective.



Ah come on. The average school-leaver or college graduate has parents, friends, aunts, uncles, guidance counsellors, etc.

If someone has pursued a career in retail banking recently, they absolutely deserve to be filleted.

It’s sad on a human level, of course it is, but they don’t deserve much sympathy. It wouldn’t have taken Nostradamus to predict this.


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## fayf (1 Mar 2021)

List of branches closing:








						Here's the full list of 103 Bank of Ireland branches set to shut across the island
					

The branch network in Ireland will reduce from 257 to 169 and from 28 to 13 in Northern Ireland.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## fidelcastro (1 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's terrible news.
> 
> I haver the same reaction to when I heard the news that Guinness was laying off all its coopers in the 1950s. It's crazy, they should have kept them on, even if they were not needed.
> 
> ...


Expecting any improvement in service or reduction in banking / mortgage fees as a consequence is wishful thinking.  The only beneficiaries are BOI top brass and the shareholders, the losers are customers, staff and tax-payers.


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## Peanuts20 (1 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's terrible news.
> 
> I haver the same reaction to when I heard the news that Guinness was laying off all its coopers in the 1950s. It's crazy, they should have kept them on, even if they were not needed.
> 
> ...



The lack of empathy and borderline viciousness on both this thread and on some of the Ulster threads is both surprising and frankly somewhat disappointing. It also contrasts with people complaining on other threads about the lack of human contact when it comes to dealing with issues with their digital "bank" (and I'm using inverted comma's here deliberately as some of these apps are not banks).

I've no argument that banking is changing, that the use of cash and cheques is in decline and the need for most people to actually visit a bank branch is reducing, especially if you can still do your banking via An Post. What BoI are doing reflects that to a certain degree. However the move to digital banking might be great in 5 years time if the National Broadband plan delivers but these closure decisions are going to cause problems in the short to medium terms for a lot of people.

It's clear banks no longer want to sell us products, get to know their customers and find solutions and services to meet their needs. Instead they are assuming you will come to them digitally if you want something. That is a short term reaction that will come back to hurt both the bank and their customers in the years to come.  I wonder in 10 years time will there be a "computerised lending" scandal because the IT brigade thought they knew best?  What happens to BoI if they get a repeat if the Ulster IT issues of a few years ago?


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## Peanuts20 (1 Mar 2021)

Full list is here









						Bank of Ireland closures: Full list of 103 branches set to shut | BreakingNews.ie
					

The bank is to shut 88 outlets in the Republic and 15 in the North




					www.breakingnews.ie
				




Interesting how they seem to be pulling out of student banking which does reflect a change in behaviour there. Also closing some office sites at places like HP and Intel. However there are some big towns impacted


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## Sunny (1 Mar 2021)

God, some of the posts here are just mad. For a start, the majority of branches closing don't even offer counter services so the impact on employees is minimal. There will be no compulsory redundancies so I have no idea why people have to ridicule people's jobs. 

Secondly, people seem to think bank branches have not changed since the 1700's and are just full of school leavers looking for a career in bank telling. You really need to get away from the internet for a while. The patronising and vicious posts that basically call people who might start a career in a bank branch as stupid for choosing such a career don't really belong on this site. Who is anyone here to judge anyone on how they start their career? I know someone started as a bank teller while getting his accounting degree and is now a Managing Director for one of the largest fund managers in the world. There are many bank executives who start out working in bank branches. 

Banking is changing. There is an unstoppable move towards digital channels. Bank branches in small towns and villages are just not viable. But then neither are most post offices. Neither are most pubs. Neither are most shops. Neither are most garages. People will choose to work there if they are present though. Doesn't make them stupid. 

As for saying anyone who started working in retail banking (which is a huge sector) recently 'deserve to be filleted'? Really nice to see what a consumer website has become. Lovely for people who work in that sector come on here looking for advice like the rest of us and read stuff like that.


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## NiallSparky (1 Mar 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> It's clear banks no longer want to sell us products, get to know their customers and find solutions and services to meet their needs. Instead they are assuming you will come to them digitally if you want something. That is a short term reaction that will come back to hurt both the bank and their customers in the years to come.  I wonder in 10 years time will there be a "computerised lending" scandal because the IT brigade thought they knew best?  What happens to BoI if they get a repeat if the Ulster IT issues of a few years ago?



All lending is already "computerised", nothing is changing here.


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## Protocol (1 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> Yes, it accounts for more than a third of their revenue.




This statement is false.

2019 Annual report, An Post revenue = 892m

Total post office retail revenue = 163m, and this includes everything processed through post offices

The 163m includes FX sales, mobile phones, vouchers, etc.

So the DSP contract is a fraction of the 163m.


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## Sadim (1 Mar 2021)

Sunny said:


> God, some of the posts here are just mad. For a start, the majority of branches closing don't even offer counter services so the impact on employees is minimal. There will be no compulsory redundancies so I have no idea why people have to ridicule people's jobs.
> 
> Secondly, people seem to think bank branches have not changed since the 1700's and are just full of school leavers looking for a career in bank telling. You really need to get away from the internet for a while. The patronising and vicious posts that basically call people who might start a career in a bank branch as stupid for choosing such a career don't really belong on this site. Who is anyone here to judge anyone on how they start their career? I know someone started as a bank teller while getting his accounting degree and is now a Managing Director for one of the largest fund managers in the world. There are many bank executives who start out working in bank branches.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly endorse everything you've said. Problem with online exchange is a lot of people use it as a forum to vent without any empathy or consideration. I have seen a lot of dismissive commentary on this and other issues on AAM, strike me like some contributors like beating their chests and feeling great about themselves.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (1 Mar 2021)

Protocol said:


> So the DSP contract is a fraction of the 163m.


It's also not an Exchequer subsidy.

It's a contract for a service in line with EU State aid rules.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> That’s life. If someone is starting off now and they’re pursuing a career as a bank teller, how can they deserve any sympathy?


I started my working life behind the till in a video store! Remember those?

I learned a huge amount about how to deal with people face to face at a very young age and I think it stands to me today.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2021)

As part of Bank of Ireland’s Annual Results published this morning we also announced a range of significant changes to our branch network and the provision of local banking services to our customers. We’re getting in touch with you today as an important stakeholder to us to let you know about these changes and how they respond to the acceleration in the uptake of digital banking, while also protecting access to banking for communities in every part of the country.



From September 2021, the number of Bank of Ireland branches will reduce by 88, the first significant change to the Bank’s physical footprint in almost a decade. The branches closing are predominately self-service locations which do not offer a counter service. The Bank will continue to have a strong nationwide presence of 169 branches.



This will be complemented by a new partnership with An Post – which will be launched in the coming months – and which will offer all Bank of Ireland customers banking services at more than 900 locations across Ireland. This will include over the counter cash and cheque lodgements, and cash withdrawals. Post offices offer longer weekday opening hours than traditional bank branches along with Saturday opening. The closing Bank of Ireland branches all have a post office within, on average, less than 500 metres.



While we have kept our branch network largely unchanged over the past decade, we’ve now reached a tipping point in customer preference between online and offline banking. Our mobile app is our most popular way to bank, with almost half a million customer logins every day and traffic up by a third in the past two years. Seven in ten personal customer product applications are made digitally, and we expect this to grow to over eight in ten by the end of this year. In contrast, in the two years before the pandemic, the number of people visiting branches had reduced by almost a quarter. This decline has accelerated over the past 12 months, with the number of visits to branches just over half of what they were in 2017. Footfall in the branches due to close has reduced by even more (60%).



To keep pace with rapidly changing customer banking preferences, the Bank is continually investing in new services. Last year the Bank launched a new mobile app with 50% more functionality, including Apple and Google Pay. Today, customers can open a current account online in six minutes. Additionally, customers can complete the entire mortgage process online. By the end of 2020, 45% of all first-time buyer applications were online.



We know news like this can cause concern for some customers. We’re not making these changes immediately – no branches will close in the next six months. That allows us to ensure the An Post partnership is up and running before any branches close, and also gives us time to write to all of our customers about every option available to them online, in a nearby branch, or at a local post office. Additionally, to further support over-65s and carers, the Bank has a dedicated support line on 1800 946 146 (open 9.30am to 4.30pm, Mon-Fri). Further details on these changes can be found on our website at www.bankofireland.com/servicechanges



Bank of Ireland has provided a range of financial services to our customers for over 237 years. Over the past year, our focus has been on helping customers navigate the challenges of COVID-19 while supporting economic recovery. The changes announced today will ensure that we can continue to play a strong role – in serving our customers and supporting the economy – for the years to come.



Best regards



Gavin Kelly

Retail Ireland CEO

Bank of Ireland


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

The ‘Straw Man Arguments’ are gas.

My comments were specific to people entering retail banking now or recently.

That has no relevance to someone’s mate who started as a bank teller years ago and became MD of a fund or someone who worked in a video shop years ago.

Someone who consciously went into retail banking recently and is now staring down the barrel of a gun deserves little or no sympathy.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Someone who consciously went into retail banking recently and is now staring down the barrel of a gun deserves little or no sympathy.



It's not the barrel of a gun even. They can choose to work in another branch or choose a generous voluntary redundancy package. 

Brendan


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## Sunny (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> The ‘Straw Man Arguments’ are gas.
> 
> My comments were specific to people entering retail banking now or recently.
> 
> ...



Who is looking for sympathy??? I obviously missed that post where a member of BOI staff was looking for sympathy. Care to show me the link?? No you decided to call people stupid for choosing a career in banking. No actually you seem to decided that people who start off in bank branch are too stupid to know where banking is heading themselves. No, they need the gurus on AAM to tell them.

Even the initial post on this had nothing to do with employees but Brendan decided to go down some strange rabbit hole talking about Guinness and coopers in the 1950's when nobody had even mentioned employees. You decided to follow up with some ridiculous arrogant statements that people in branches are simpletons for working in an area that is under threat. Maybe these people are just looking for a foot in the door. Maybe they wanted to work local and the opportunity came up. Nobody was looking for your sympathy. Nobody was looking for you or Brendan to say this was wrong. I don't see one person saying that it is a disgrace, that BOI are wrong. So why do you think you have a right to judge anyone who took any sort of job? 

But if AAM is going to go down the road with threads like this where people pass ridiculous judgement on people just trying to earn a living, then this site is just going to end up like Boards.ie


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

Again, you don’t seem to be reading the posts in question properly. It’s classic Straw Man stuff. At no point have I said that someone working in a branch is a simpleton.

What I have said is that anyone who has pursued such a career RECENTLY deserves very little sympathy.

Someone isn’t a “simpleton” for working in an industry that’s under threat. But, by God, if they’ve chosen to enter it recently, one has to wonder.

As for the longer-serving employees, they’ll either get handsome payoffs or be redeployed elsewhere.


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## huskerdu (1 Mar 2021)

I 100% agree with Sunny. 
There are valid points that could be made this not being a surprise to anyone working in BOI and the further job losses and cuts are inevitable in he backing sector. It would have been very easy to make the points without sounding mean spirited


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

How on earth can someone who chose to enter retail banking recently be shocked or surprised at recent developments at Ulster Bank or Bank of Ireland?

Anecdotes about people working in video shops and how it stood them in good stead are charming, but are of no relevance.

I worked in a video shop too. It was good experience.

But I didn’t invest in a video shop when everyone was streaming content and then start whinging about it. Nor would I deserve any sympathy whatsoever for doing so.


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## WolfeTone (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> If someone is starting off now and they’re pursuing a career as a bank teller, how can they deserve any sympathy?



I don't think anyone is starting off now and pursuing a career as a bank teller. The only reason why anyone would do that is if the banks are actively trying source staff by promoting such career options. I don't think they have being doing that for quite some time.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2021)

Thirsty said:


> I would argue that better strategic planning would have enabled the company to reduce the branch network over time.



I got a letter in the door just now from AIB telling me that my branch at 52 Upper Baggot Street was closing and my account is moving to Lower Baggot Street. 

They must be reading your advice Thirsty.

Brendan


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

WolfeTone said:


> I don't think anyone is starting off now and pursuing a career as a bank teller. The only reason why anyone would do that is if the banks are actively trying source staff by promoting such career options. I don't think they have being doing that for quite some time.



In which case, we’re probably talking about staff who’ll be well looked after.

But I stand by the point, despite the personal abuse. 

The writing has been on the wall for retail banking for a long long time.


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## Thirsty (1 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> They must be reading your advice Thirsty.


I keep telling ye I'm an influencer


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## Sunny (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Again, you don’t seem to be reading the posts in question properly. It’s classic Straw Man stuff. At no point have I said that someone working in a branch is a simpleton.
> 
> What I have said is that anyone who has pursued such a career RECENTLY deserves very little sympathy.
> 
> ...


There is nothing strawman about pulling you up for saying anyone who joins retail banking recently deserves to be filleted. Nobody is arguing your point about the future of banking but your language was disrespectful to people trying to earn a living and just because branches are closing doesn't mean there isn't a future in retail banking unless you define retail banking as sitting behind a counter dealing with the public on which case you don't really know what you talking about.


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

Why are some sectors of our economy “sacred cows” while other parts get filleted as a matter of routine and nobody bats an eyelid?

Businesses such as greengrocers largely went the way of the dodo and I don’t remember anyone kicking up a fuss.

But certain demonstrably unviable business models seem to evoke fire and brimstone.

Exhibits A, B, and C being small farms, rural pubs, and bank branches.

Nobody is for a minute suggesting “why don’t they all work for Facebook?”, but the demise of these business models has been on the horizon for a long long time.

Maybe some people would prefer if I said “Ah that’s so sad! Isn’t it terrible? Those poor people!”

But in reality, the experienced ones will be redeployed or paid off handsomely and walk into other jobs in an economy with full employment. And the inexperienced ones deserve little sympathy for the reasons previously articulated.


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

Sunny said:


> There is nothing strawman about pulling you up for saying anyone who joins retail banking recently deserves to be filleted. Nobody is arguing your point about the future of banking but your language was disrespectful to people trying to earn a living and just because branches are closing doesn't mean there isn't a future in retail banking unless you define retail banking as sitting behind a counter dealing with the public on which case you don't really know what you talking about.



Sunny, does an adult who sticks their hand in the fire deserve sympathy? Or are they an idiot?

It is insulting and an affront to genuine hard luck cases when people bemoan events like this and heap unwarranted sympathy on the “victims”.

Someone who has joined retail banking RECENTLY and finds themselves made redundant or that it’s going nowhere is getting no more or no less than they deserve.


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## SlurrySlump (1 Mar 2021)

Sunny said:


> But if AAM is going to go down the road with threads like this where people pass ridiculous judgement on people just trying to earn a living, then this site is just going to end up like Boards.ie


You take your life in your hands here sometimes when making a post. Just look at the number of people who stopped contributing to AAM over the years and moved to Boards. I know of many people who have vowed never to post here again.  I even remember there was a site set up with a similar name to slag off AAM. 

I started working in the BOI back in 1970 then moved on to another financial institution about 15 years later.  It was a great career. Great friends, social life, pay was OK.  I was able to get a mortgage 3 times my salary, bought my first house aged 22 years of age.  Over the years I felt, as a customer that the staff in the banks were not as well trained as the staff of old. I thought that standards began to slip. However I look back with great fondness at the good times.

Whether it would be a good career going forward I don't know. In the branches we certainly believed that those in the Head Office considered themselves better than those in the branch network. Maybe things are just changing now and the pond will still be there but somewhat smaller.


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## Bronte (1 Mar 2021)

I'd imagine it's not just banks are going to close down.  This covid has made many people shop online and it will have a knock on effect on town centers, on renting and on offices.


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## DublinHead54 (1 Mar 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> Full list is here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wonder if students have largely moved to 'digital' products such as Revolut, it would be interesting to see if student sign up rates have dramatically fallen.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (1 Mar 2021)

Dublinbay12 said:


> it would be interesting to see if student sign up rates have dramatically fallen.


I see four branches closing at third-level institutes.

Makes a change from my undergraduate days when AIB literally gave me £20 a month for three months just for opening a bank account with them. BoI gave out a free phone.


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## DublinHead54 (1 Mar 2021)

I wonder if Bank of Ireland own these properties? In a post Covid economy there might be an opportunity to retrofit these branches a shared office space for people to work remotely.


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## Sadim (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Why are some sectors of our economy “sacred cows” while other parts get filleted as a matter of routine and nobody bats an eyelid?
> 
> Businesses such as greengrocers largely went the way of the dodo and I don’t remember anyone kicking up a fuss.
> 
> ...



Your last line probably sums up your unsympathetic argument on this. Like, why did you bother posting it only to insult new workers in the banks? Maybe they had little choice, maybe they had fewer alternatives. Sure, we all accept branch closures were inevitable but it should hardly evoke a Trumpian type of glee for their plight. They will have mortgages, families etc and will at least have a temporary hiatus from paid work .... hardly a thing to relish as you seem to be doing or at least as you say "deserve little sympathy"


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2021)

SlurrySlump said:


> You take your life in your hands here sometimes when making a post. Just look at the number of people who stopped contributing to AAM over the years and moved to Boards. I know of many people who have vowed never to post here again. I even remember there was a site set up with a similar name to slag off AAM.



I am trying to understand this analysis.

It was in response to Sunny saying:



> But if AAM is going to go down the road with threads like this where people pass ridiculous judgement on people just trying to earn a living, then this site is just going to end up like Boards.ie



I am confused.  When Gordon or I express a view which is contrary to the conventional views, people stop posting on Askaboutmoney and go to boards?  So that they will have a more balanced , more moderate, discussion? 



Brendan


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

For the avoidance of doubt, I take no pleasure at all in anyone’s plight (such that it is, as nothing’s happened yet).

Again, to bat away the straw men, I am only talking about recent entrants.

If someone came to you over the last, say, 5 years and asked for an opinion on whether working in a bank branch might offer a bright and long career, what would you have said?

Those new entrants are no different to entrepreneurs taking a punt on a travel agency, a Top Shop franchise, a small farm, a greengrocers, or a rural pub. It was mad to start with.


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## Purple (1 Mar 2021)

Bronte said:


> I'd imagine it's not just banks are going to close down.  This covid has made many people shop online and it will have a knock on effect on town centers, on renting and on offices.


Shops, banks, pubs, petrol stations (as we move to electric and battery technology improves), etc. There will be fewer and fewer jobs in customer facing areas and in data processing. 
Many people think of automation in the context of manufacturing but AI is utterly changing financial services across the board. 
I do agree that anyone who went into retail banking in the last few years needs their head examined.


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## Purple (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Those new entrants are no different to entrepreneurs taking a punt on a travel agency, a Top Shop franchise, a small farm, a greengrocers, or a rural pub.


It's strange how small farms, which haven't been viable in generations, are the only ones on that list that have to be protected at all costs.


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> It's strange how small farms, which haven't been viable in generations, are the only ones on that list that have to be protected at all costs.



When they’re completely unviable, have been subsidised for years, and where the next generation have been given huge lead-time to pivot to something else.


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## PGF2016 (1 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I am trying to understand this analysis.
> 
> It was in response to Sunny saying:
> 
> ...


I think, as you well know, the problem is with the harshness of the delivery of your and Gordon's opinion(s). I actually agree with the opinion in that those affected must have seen this coming. They could and should have taken steps to prepare for this (up-skilling, emergency fund etc.).  They deserve little sympathy if they stuck heads in sand and ignored the inevitable and are now in a financial pickle or are not employable.

I say that as someone who was in a similar position a few years back i.e. I was made redundant and lost a good, well paid job close to home. The writing was on the wall for years. Fortunately I was ready and found a new (less well paid position) elsewhere. The reduction in salary was not a problem as we had not overstretched and were in a good position financially.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2021)

PGF2016 said:


> I think, as you well know, the problem is with the harshness of the delivery of your and Gordon's opinion(s).



Hi PGF

My question was "If you don't like the harshly expressed opinions on Askaboutmoney, what does quitting it and going to boards.ie achieve?" 

Lots of people have left askaboutmoney for boards.ie because they don't like the harsh moderation.  But they don't go because they find boards.ie less harsh in its opinions.

Brendan


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## Leper (1 Mar 2021)

I have no problem with the moderators on AAM and although he doesn't appear to know it, I am a follower of some of what Brendan Burgess says (provided it's not looking at bank employees and others with a sort of contempt). Like what somebody said earlier an expression of empathy wouldn't go amiss occasionally especially when somebody is looking at his/her job evaporate. The prospect of losing one's job is not what most want to see.  I've been there and fortunately came out the other side unscathed.

On another thread I have been advising Brendan (I hope I can still call him Brendan; he can call me Lep) on the basics of Media Training where he can improve his image on radio and even level the playing field when being destroyed by Joe Duffy. He treats my advice the way he treats the bad news for bank employees (Ulster and BOI) have to hurl the fact that shortly they may have no means of income.

I'm a nice guy who learned something along the way while working as an unpaid union rep. I enjoy this forum too and posting here makes me take in the daily news and come to terms with it. So, well done AAM, I like the forum and I ain't leaving for Boards.

I'm still liberal with my good advice for Brendan:- Buy a pair of oversized red braces. connect them to your pants front and back and wear them through the back section of your work seat so that when you jump to an unfortunate  conclusion, the braces will pull you back. That's the soundest advice you'll get here today.


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## Sunny (1 Mar 2021)

I don't think one person here doesn't agree with the analysis of where banking through a branch is going. Just like numerous other ways of doing business. Nobody mentioned keeping branches open for the sake of it or for the sake of employees. Nobody mentioned holding up progress. 

I like thousands of other people have benefited hugely from this site over the years and continue to enjoy it. I simply disagree with people passing judgement on other peoples career choices and using phrases like 'they deserve to be filleted'. 

I also can get a sense of pure snobbery on this thread and on the ulster bank thread where someone was allowed to post that people who work in a branch have no transferable skills and that was allowed to go unchallenged. People use the phrase retail banking like it is just people sitting behind a counter. Retail banking is much more than that and includes digital banking. Who is anyone here to pass judgement that people working in branches are not capable of taking on other tasks? There are some very qualified people working in branches. Reasons why people might decide to work in a branch are numerous. Doesnt mean they don't have skills or deserve to have their roles filleted. Nobody trying to earn a living should be told that. I wouldn't mind if this thread had bank staff looking for sympathy but there isn't one. That didn't stop people unprompted comparing their jobs to Guinness workers in the 1950s and how crazy they were for choosing a job. All because someone said it a shame to see branch closures.

There is a way to make a point without disparaging people and what they do. And in this instance, I think AAM is wrong. Shows a lack of respect to some very good people.


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## Thirsty (1 Mar 2021)

One point that is being missed completely in all the bickering; is how this affects older people. 

I've posted before on the horrors of navigating customer services (even when they are, relatively, well run - though two cans and some string would be more efficient than Eir).

We really have no comprehension of how enormous the changes have been for someone who was born in the early part of the last century. 

One elderly relative is fond of telling a story that in the village they grew up in, only the local Dr. / Priest / Solicitor had a telephone; and when they first started work in the Big Smoke, the first time a telephone rang, they ran out the door thinking it was an air raid.

These are the folks we are asking to stop writing cheques/ going into banks and start using digital banking / Revolut / Smart phones; never mind that in some rural areas you could be half way up a tree trying to get a signal.

Edit to add: before someone tells me that their 70 year old Grandparent is so "with it" they do hip hop dance classes and are planning to hill trek in Nepal - that's not really the point.

Imagine asking some one from the mid-19th Century to drive your car - that's what "digital banking" can feel like if you haven't grown up with computerisation.


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## PGF2016 (1 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi PGF
> 
> My question was "If you don't like the harshly expressed opinions on Askaboutmoney, what does quitting it and going to boards.ie achieve?"
> 
> ...


I agree. Going to boards would be silly. Just as sticking your head in the sand when your job is obviously in danger is silly. 

Would not listening to feedback from users of the site be considered sticking your head in the sand also? 

Saying that as someone who agrees with you and enjoys the site.


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Mar 2021)

Thirsty said:


> One point that is being missed completely in all the bickering; is how this affects older people.



Thirsty

They have the post office. 

They can switch to another bank. 

They can use a credit union.

Bank of Ireland should not be forced to keep rarely used branches open  to accommodate people who don't want to make any change at all. 

Brendan


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## SGWidow (1 Mar 2021)

Sunny said:


> I don't think one person here doesn't agree with the analysis of where banking through a branch is going. Just like numerous other ways of doing business. Nobody mentioned keeping branches open for the sake of it or for the sake of employees. Nobody mentioned holding up progress.
> 
> I also can get a sense of pure snobbery on this thread....
> 
> There is a way to make a point without disparaging people and what they do. And in this instance, I think AAM is wrong. Shows a lack of respect to some very good people.



Truly excellent post, Sunny in response to some very distasteful comments/posts.


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## WolfeTone (1 Mar 2021)

I don't think anyone disagrees that industry is constantly changing and that new technologies, innovations, demands etc will make redundant old business models and be replaced with the new.
This is a given.

What is not a given is the level of disruption and the speed that that disruption occurs.
For instance, the retail supermarket checkout has been in a state of flux for over a decade, replacing staffed checkouts with automated self-service checkouts. It is has been a slow-burner and the staffed checkouts have remained surprisingly resilient. The disruption to careers, employment etc has been negligible imo, given the emergence of outlets like Lidl, Aldi.

The retail banking sector has been slowly diminishing for a number of years now. However, with Aib cuts, BoI closures and UB withdrawal, the pace of that disruption has quickly ratcheted up. This is the troubling and disturbing part. It's not just the staff who will lose their jobs, but the knock-on disruption to local businesses and communities. It is a sign of a greater malaise in Main St.
Where I live AIB pulled out after the financial crash. A BoI branch remains but now I would imagine that is to close.
The question everyone will have, what will be next to close?
At the end of this pandemic, when the green light to open is given, don't be surprised if there is little impetus for business traders to (re) open.
When the unemployment queues remain stubbornly high, let's hope we don't hear the typical labelling about "the people who never work".


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## DublinHead54 (1 Mar 2021)

Have BOI been hiring young graduates to work in retail branches over the last 5 years?


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## fidelcastro (1 Mar 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Why are some sectors of our economy “sacred cows” while other parts get filleted as a matter of routine and nobody bats an eyelid?
> 
> Businesses such as greengrocers largely went the way of the dodo and I don’t remember anyone kicking up a fuss.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, we can agree to disagree 

One thíng though, the economy is far from full employment now, the full extent of the pandemic will reveal itself in the next decade ( sigh)


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## Thirsty (1 Mar 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Bank of Ireland should not be forced to keep rarely used branches open ...


Where did I say that they should?


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## tomdublin (1 Mar 2021)

The voxpops on the radio today featured people in their 60s and 70s claiming that they are "too old" for internet banking.  The internet became a mass phenomenon 25 years ago when these people were in their 40s and 50s.  Their laziness and lack of curiosity seems to serve them as a badge of honour.


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## Leper (2 Mar 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Where did I say that they should?


This is what some of us are discussing, the blatant ironic sarcasm of intelligent people with a sort of contempt for people about to lose their jobs. Like they  themselves, a confident cocky group, were never ever going to see a poor day.


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## SlugBreath (2 Mar 2021)

Leper said:


> This is what some of us are discussing, the blatant ironic sarcasm of intelligent people with a sort of contempt for people about to lose their jobs. Like they themselves, a confident cocky group, were never ever going to see a poor day.


Look. This thread will go like so many other threads. It will be closed down. The protected elite will have had their say and they will wait for another thread to come along, then off again.
Are we really talking about "nil" branch banking going forward and a cashless society. I hope not. I still enjoy my visit to my butcher, Natural Bakery and Greengrocer......and maybe a bank where I can still ask a question.


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## Thirsty (2 Mar 2021)

> The internet became a mass phenomenon 25 years ago when these people were in their 40s and 50s.



@tomdublin - tell me, were you using the internet in your home in 1995?


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## Purple (2 Mar 2021)

tomdublin said:


> The voxpops on the radio today featured people in their 60s and 70s claiming that they are "too old" for internet banking.  The internet became a mass phenomenon 25 years ago when these people were in their 40s and 50s.  Their laziness and lack of curiosity seems to serve them as a badge of honour.


I don't think it's been a mass phenomenon 25 years ago, more like 15 years ago, but your point stands; if you can use a smart phone you can use internet banking. 

The post offices are taking over the counter service function of the banks. The rural post offices are more secure. The bank is saving money. Nobody is being laid off who doesn't want to go. What's the problem?

The question of technology costing jobs comes up all the time. The one thing that is certain to cost jobs is the failure to adopt new technology and work practices when your competition is doing it.


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## odyssey06 (2 Mar 2021)

iirc I think the internet only really became ubiquitous \ normalised in the early to mid 00s. Look at when the likes of myspace, bebo, then Facebook started.
Until then except for email it was still a thing for freaks and geeks*. Home computers were big for gaming.

Smart phone apps with their guiding 'wizard' interfaces have certainly simplified things.

I think for people used to receiving small sums of cash in payment though, the jump to using card readers etc as a merchant may be more challenging.

*And as a geek I preferred it that way


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## Purple (2 Mar 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> iirc I think the internet only really became ubiquitous \ normalised in the early to mid 00s. Look at when the likes of myspace, bebo, then Facebook started.
> Until then except for email it was still a thing for freaks and geeks


Okay, but the point stands; the people who are now 75-85 were 55-60. If you aren't willing to spend 15 minutes learning something new at that age then you are responsible for the consequences.


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## NiallSparky (2 Mar 2021)

Thirsty said:


> One point that is being missed completely in all the bickering; is how this affects older people.
> 
> I've posted before on the horrors of navigating customer services (even when they are, relatively, well run - though two cans and some string would be more efficient than Eir).
> 
> ...



All very valid points.

It the State feels that this group of people need physical banking services in place, they should provide it or pay for an institution to provide it as a PSO. There shouldn't be a reliance on a private bank to do this out of the goodness of their hearts (not saying you're suggesting this).

I'm not even sure internet-savviness is actually that necessary for branchless banking. All most people do is withdraw money and pay bills, you don't really need to go near online banking to do this. ATMs will do withdrawals and tell you your balance - are there still people about saying they're unable to use ATMs?


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## POC (2 Mar 2021)

I have older relatives who don't have smartphones. Some (but not all) can use texts on a 'dumb' phone. They all have some basic internet skills. They are able to master some websites if they are determined. For example one plays bridge online. They all have basic computers at home now but some of them used internet in the libraries for years first. They were reluctant to spend money on computers or internet services if they didn't need to. 
But most of them aren't comfortable with the internet especially for financial transactions, especially when there are so many warnings about possible scams. In my experience nieces, nephews, sons and daughters get asked to do tasks for them. And that wouldn't be appropriate for banking or confidential matters.


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## Itchy (2 Mar 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> Smart phone apps with their guiding 'wizard' interfaces have certainly simplified things.



I'm not sure how familiar you are with Bank of Ireland's app!


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## Sunny (2 Mar 2021)

To be fair to banks, they can't be expected to run significant loss making business models because some people are not comfortable using digital banking. Having said that, I don't think banks should just ignore older people or people with disabilities either. I know in the UK, before one of the banks closed branches, they invited their elderly customers into the branch and provided tuition on using online banking and online safety. Still won't be enough for people who have no ability or desire to use internet banking. But as has been made clear already, we can't stop progress. And credit unions and post offices should be looking at this as an opportunity.

As an aside, I remember when banks were trying to outdo themselves trying to attract the elderly and their large cash deposits. Now, not only do banks not want them calling into branches as they don't buy anything, they don't even want their money in the first place!


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## odyssey06 (2 Mar 2021)

Itchy said:


> I'm not sure how familiar you are with Bank of Ireland's app!



Hah, I was speaking generally... I haven't found it buggy but for an app it is sluggish and unresponsive, I use it in self enforced go slow mode.
We've come from client-server apps you had to install on your pc, to browser based access and now back to installed apps.


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## Purple (2 Mar 2021)

POC said:


> I have older relatives who don't have smartphones. Some (but not all) can use texts on a 'dumb' phone. They all have some basic internet skills. They are able to master some websites if they are determined. For example one plays bridge online. They all have basic computers at home now but some of them used internet in the libraries for years first. They were reluctant to spend money on computers or internet services if they didn't need to.
> But most of them aren't comfortable with the internet especially for financial transactions, especially when there are so many warnings about possible scams. In my experience nieces, nephews, sons and daughters get asked to do tasks for them. And that wouldn't be appropriate for banking or confidential matters.


Yea, maybe Bank of Ireland could talk to An Post about helping out in those circumstances... oh, wait...


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## ClubMan (3 Mar 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Announcements like this, to me, show that senior managers weren't doing their job.


Surely it's the complete opposite.
By closing the branches and cutting costs they are clearly doing their job?
How often do people actually visit their bank in person?
I probably do about once a year and that's only when some dinosaur gives me a cheque that I have to lodge.


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## odyssey06 (3 Mar 2021)

ClubMan said:


> Surely it's the complete opposite.
> By closing the branches and cutting costs they are clearly doing their job?
> How often do people actually visit their bank in person?
> I probably do about once a year and that's only when some dinosaur gives me a cheque that I have to lodge.



I'd imagine small business owners would answer that question differently to someone who needs to lodge the occasional cheque or open a new account.


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## Thirsty (3 Mar 2021)

ClubMan said:


> Surely it's the complete opposite.
> By closing the branches and cutting costs they are clearly doing their job?
> How often do people actually visit their bank in person?
> I probably do about once a year and that's only when some dinosaur gives me a cheque that I have to lodge.


The point being, as you will see from my entire post, that better strategic management would have forseen the changes required and not needed a mass closure.


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## NiallSparky (3 Mar 2021)

Thirsty said:


> The point being, as you will see from my entire post, that better strategic management would have forseen the changes required and not needed a mass closure.



Mass closures much better politically than 80 individual closing announcements. It's why essentially every company does it this way.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (3 Mar 2021)

NiallSparky said:


> Mass closures much better politically than 80 individual closing announcements.


It's the same with redundancies.

It's better to lay everyone off in one go than have a year where your employees are all fretting about losing their job.


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## Johnno75 (3 Mar 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> I'd imagine small business owners


Correct. Take any retail business owners (small and large) in any city, town or village in Ireland - all rely on the ability to lodge cash on a daily or weekly basis. Granted, we seem to be moving towards a cashless society but I’ll guarantee you if someone come into my business with cash, I’m not going to refuse it.


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## PGF2016 (3 Mar 2021)

Jayom75 said:


> Take any retail business owners (small and large) in any city, town or village in Ireland - all rely on the ability to lodge cash on a daily or weekly basis.


Paper money can be lodged using ATMs. Are branches needed to lodge coins? 

Do these businesses queue up on a daily / weekly basis in branches?


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## Johnno75 (3 Mar 2021)

PGF2016 said:


> Paper money can be lodged using ATMs. Are branches needed to lodge coins?
> 
> Do these businesses queue up on a daily / weekly basis in branches?


If you’re a business lodging several thousand euro in cash, daily, doing it at an ATM on the Main Street (in winter, for example) isn’t ideal for obvious reasons.


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## Thirsty (3 Mar 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> ...employees are all fretting about losing their job..


How about being more humane and planning better so you don't put people through this in the first place.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (3 Mar 2021)

Thirsty said:


> How about being more humane and planning better so you don't put people through this in the first place.



No private sector worker, has 100% job security.

A drip-feed of branch closures would be a logistical, HR, and public relations nightmare.


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## PGF2016 (3 Mar 2021)

Jayom75 said:


> If you’re a business lodging several thousand euro in cash, daily, doing it at an ATM on the Main Street (in winter, for example) isn’t ideal for obvious reasons.


I don't think lodging several thousand euro in cash daily in a branch is ideal either. And the bank teller isn't providing security so a branch as it exists at present isn't necessary. A secure ATM for lodgements is needed. I would guess they exist already.


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## Johnno75 (3 Mar 2021)

PGF2016 said:


> I don't think lodging several thousand euro in cash daily in a branch is ideal either. And the bank teller isn't providing security so a branch as it exists at present isn't necessary. A secure ATM for lodgements is needed. I would guess they exist already.


Have you ever tried to lodge large amounts of cash at an ATM? I have. (And cheques too). It takes a long time. And the machines don’t always work, cash gets rejected, cheques misread etc.

My point about lodging large amounts of cash, which takes time, on a public street ATM (especially on winter evenings) is that it’s an invitation for unwanted attention and raises security issues. It’s far more secure to be in a branch lodging at either an automated teller or even a real live one.


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## PGF2016 (3 Mar 2021)

Jayom75 said:


> Have you ever tried to lodge large amounts of cash at an ATM? I have. (And cheques too). It takes a long time. And the machines don’t always work, cash gets rejected, cheques misread etc.
> 
> My point about lodging large amounts of cash, which takes time, on a public street ATM (especially on winter evenings) is that it’s an invitation for unwanted attention and raises security issues. It’s far more secure to be in a branch lodging at either an automated teller or even a real live one.


I have never lodged large amounts hence the questions. 

I get the security requirement. That's why I suggested a secure ATM i.e. not on a public street. Doesnt have to be in a branch though.


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## Deiseblue (3 Mar 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> It's the same with redundancies.
> 
> It's better to lay everyone off in one go than have a year where your employees are all fretting about losing their job.


Affected staff will either be deployed to other branches or departments or can avail of voluntary redundancy. 
No compulsory redundancies.


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