# Number of sick days without cert?



## Auntie (18 May 2007)

I have looked online for answers to this but the question is quite specific and I couldn't find anything

My company has recently changed their policy on the number of uncertified sick days that you can take in a row. It's now saying that "if you are absent for 2 days or more" that you must provide a cert. So basically you can only be absent for one day without a cert. 

One of my colleagues was out sick for 2 days last week. According to our contracts (which were signed in 2006) you can be absent for 2 days without a cert. Does this new policy override the contracts? The new policy was communicated by email in April 07. 

She's not trying to take the proverbial here or look for an entitlement to free 'sick days', it's just that €50 is a lot to have to fork out for a cert, just to have a second day when you are sick. In my experience, if you are genuinely sick, you are not always fit and ready to return to work after just one day. 

So I'm just wondering, when our contract states 2 days, can the company override this to say it's now one day??? Any opinions greatly appreciated. 
Thanks


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## oldtimer (18 May 2007)

All I can say is in the state and semi-state jobs one is entitled to 2 days uncertified sick leave - cert required for day 3 and thereafter. However this may be a privilege rather than a rule i.e. in cases where one is frequently off sick *uncertified* sick leave may be withdrawn at the Companys discretion and a cert may be required for even one day. Hope this is some help/guideline


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## wolfspeed (18 May 2007)

You may need legal advice, or if there is a union were you work you could ask them to clarify. If it is stated clearly in the contract that you signed, you can have 2 days uncertified without a cert, I don't think an employer can change that without getting you to sign a new contract (though a solicitor might disagree).


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## Auntie (18 May 2007)

It's a private company. Chances are there probably were people taking advantage and they cut it for that reason. I've never known any company where it's just been one day. 

Anyway, thanks for the replies guys. She's gonna talk to HR on Monday and go down the "it's on my contract" route.


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## shipibo (18 May 2007)

You signed your contract, this is an agreement between you and your company, any new policies where there was no alteration of existing contract are subordinate in labour law.


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## sandyg (18 May 2007)

The place i work for did somthing similar.  Contacts were for three days sick and after that a sick note.  They sent email in February stating that even if we took one day sick they required a sick note.  Since then anyone who has been out sick is now getting a sick note to cover them for a couple of days to a week. I think it has back fired on the co. Others are producing their contracts and stating that thats what they agreed to in the terms of the employment.


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## Oilean Beag (18 May 2007)

Just so you are aware , the fact that she was notified by email of the alteration to her terms of employment , is in the employers favour. Once any changes are notified by reference to a noticeboard, handbook etc they are usually vaild  unless challenged there and then by the employee. Her silence until now could be deemed acceptance of this new term. 

The contract of employment is made up of a number of things over and above that contained in the written form and can include t's &c's implied and included by reference to other materials.


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## Oilean Beag (18 May 2007)

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...s/contracts-of-employment/change_job_contract

This link explains the law in relation to major changes, I think it is doubtful that sick days would be regarded as substantially altering the employment.  At least you can be armed with the knowledge.


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## Auntie (18 May 2007)

Thanks for all the replies. Much appreciated


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## steph1 (18 May 2007)

Hi I know from working in the civil service that you are allowed take two sick days together, then if you are still out sick on the third day you must submit a doctor's cert.


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## Murt10 (18 May 2007)

delete


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## Murt10 (18 May 2007)

Bringing in a policy such as this could backfire in another way on the company. The company is being unreasonable and it's going to cost you money. 

If they insist that you have to go to the doctor on the second day for a cert, you might as well take full advantage of it and get some value for money. Ask the doctor to issue you with a cert for the full week, after all you are giving him E50 for nothing. 

It's only a short term cert. If he refuses to give you one then change your doctor and find one more sympathetic.


Murt


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## janedoe06 (18 May 2007)

i found this too http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...eave-and-holidays/sick_leave/?searchterm=Sick


also http://www.entemp.ie/employment/rights/  "Policy in relation to sick pay may be decided by the employer and agreed as part of the employee’s terms and conditions of employment. . Some industries are covered by registered employment agreements (REA’s) and Employment Regulation Orders (ERO’s), which contain binding regulations regarding sick pay. For more information on these agreements view REA’s/ERO’s.

it sounds like the Employer can change terms of contract if its not in one of the industries above


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## shipibo (21 May 2007)

Is the general concensus, if the company sends you an e-mail stating they are changing T+Cs, and you do not reply stating you are against this , the terms and conditions are changed thereafter ??

Unless somebody has other experience, my experience is the agreement you signed when you started the job can only be altered with your consent.

If the agreement states you have 2 days PAID sick leave , the company would have to negotiate change, as this would be seen in LRC / Labour Court as a degradation of you original contract.


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## Auntie (21 May 2007)

Well this quote from the citizens information answers the question; "In general an employee has no right under employment law in Ireland to be paid while on sick leave"

Unfortunately, we seem to be a passive bunch where I work, we grumbled amongst ourselves when the email arrived, but no-one actually said anything to management. 


Thanks for all the responses.


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## shipibo (22 May 2007)

Employment law in this country is spongy at best, the fact it was in your T+Cs was the point.


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## wolfspeed (22 May 2007)

Auntie said:


> Well this quote from the citizens information answers the question; "In general an employee has no right under employment law in Ireland to be paid while on sick leave"


 
There may be no general rights for employees under employment law, but if they are specified in your terms and conditions then you have been given rights by the employer. The point is that under law the employer isn't obliged to do so, but can decide to include them for any number of reasons.

I would push it with them. If they introduced these T&Cs they have to renegotiate with you. It is not good enough that they send you an email. That is not an agreement.


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## leafs (22 May 2007)

I have to have a cert if off sick 
1)on a monday 
2)on a friday or 
3)for more than 2 days.


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## gentle123 (22 May 2007)

You must supply a cert on the 3rd day of absence.


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## ClubMan (22 May 2007)

gentle123 said:


> You must supply a cert on the 3rd day of absence.


What are you referring to here? I'm not aware of any statutory rules in this context and believe that it's a contractual matter between employer and employee. See here:


> Often, your contract of employment will place a *maximum period* of sick pay entitlement in a stated period, for example, one month's sick pay in any 12-month period. Clear rules should be put in place by the employer where an employee is sick and is unavailable for work. For example, it should be clear that if you are sick and unavailable for work, you must contact a specified person by a certain time. If you are out sick for more than three consecutive dates you are usually required to provide your employer with a medical certificate (from your [broken link removed]). The medical certificate should state the nature of your illness and the date you are likely to return to work. If you are likely to be out sick for a longer period, your employer may require you provide weekly medical certificates.


 but that does not preclude other arrangements on a contractual basis.


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## aircobra19 (22 May 2007)

sandyg said:


> ...Since then anyone who has been out sick is now getting a sick note to cover them for a couple of days to a week. I think it has back fired on the co. ...



Problem with that is that you will use up your annual leave entitlement much faster, and you never know when you might actually might need it. I can see how it could backfire like you say. If you've two days most likely you'll stuggle back in on the third. Lots of stuff runs its course in 24/48 hrs. But most of the time you are stick its more than 1 day, and if you are going to have to pay for a cert and crawl out of the sick bed to spend a few hours in the docs waiting room....


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