# Three Start/ptsb "victims" on Today with Seán O'Rourke



## Delboy (28 Aug 2018)

Report on RTE radio 1 now on this sale. Sounds like a real hatchet job.
They have 3 case studies, people who are all stunned to find they ended up as part of the sale. Case Study #1 'only missed a couple of payments'. Case study #2 is a cancer patient with 2 BTL's in trouble after her husband lost his job in 2013. They never missed a payment but did get a restructure to help their situation at 1 stage.
#3 moved into a new home and the bank were happy for him not to sell the 1st home. Then the crash came. The lad sounds like a Land Leaguer to me.

David Hall quoted in the lead in to the 3 case studies probably tells you all you need to know.


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Aug 2018)

You can find the podcast here

[broken link removed]

*The first guy sounds credible. *
Lost his job 3 years ago. Kept paying something but less than the full amount. He was the equivalent of 2 months in arrears. In August 2017 he did a deal to pay off the 2 months' arrears over 24 months.  He is on a tracker, which is why he thinks his mortgage was sold.

Brian O'Connell of RTE said: The loan is less than €5,000 in arrears on a €200,000 mortgage.

Comment:  Assuming that he is telling the truth, then this loan was included by mistake. He can make his case and it would be excluded.
However,  as he is only about one month in arrears now and has a cheap tracker, it makes no difference at all who his lender is.  They can't raise his interest rate. They wouldn't be able to repossess the house even if they wanted to.

My guess: The full story is that they missed repayments many times over the years and had their mortgage restructured many times.  So this is just the latest restructuring.

*A mum 
*
Got cancer some years ago - serious illness cover paid off the mortgage on the family home.
Recovered from cancer.
Later bought two buy to lets at the top of the market.
There is now a charge on the family home - not explained.
In 11/2013 her husband lost his job.
In 12/2013 her cancer returned.
They contacted the bank. They had never missed a payment since the loan was restructured.
O'Connell: Is selling the investment properties an option?
No. They are in negative equity.

Comment:  They have two buy to lets bought at the peak of the market. The rental income should be covering the mortgage payments in full. They have no mortgage on the family home.

They are not meeting their repayments. ptsb should have been able to go to court and get a fast order to repossess these properties and secure the shortfall on the family home.

Before the sale to Start, ptsb wrote to many buy to let borrowers offering to write off the shortfall if they sold or surrendered their properties.  Apparently, 1,500 availed of this. I wonder why she didn't. Probably because she is spending the rental income.



*The USC payer *
(He didn't sound like a Freeman to me. )
Traded up because of an expanded family. Kept the original house  The USC mopped up his disposable income.
BO'C: Do you know how much USC you have paid?
By the end of this year, I will have paid €60,000 USC.
I am a patriot. I am a citizen.
I have stood up to ptsb and done a deal.
The bank is portraying me as a high flying gambler.

Comment:
I got the impression from the later discussion that this guy too has a cheap tracker mortgage on one or both of his properties. If so, then the rental income should be paying the repayments in full.

He was unable to come up with a reason for not meeting his mortgage, so he attributed it to the USC - bizarre.

In any adult economy, this guy would have been repossessed within a few months of getting into arrears.

Again, if he has a tracker on his home, there isn't anything much that Start can do other than repossess his house which will take years and which he deserves in any case.


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## Delboy (28 Aug 2018)

It was all the talk about being a patriot, a citizen and standing up to the banks that made me think #3 had a bit of the Land League about him. 
But overall, there was something in all 3 stories which seemed to indicate that less than full facts were being presented.

Any sign of the examples from Hall that he told you Brendan he would find of people who had no mortgage problems but still were  getting sent over to Start? He's had quiet a while now to highlight them.


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Aug 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> He was the equivalent of 2 months in arrears. In August 2017 he did a deal to pay off the 2 months' arrears over 24 months. He is on a tracker, which is why he thinks his mortgage was sold.
> 
> Brian O'Connell of RTE said: The loan is less than €5,000 in arrears on a €200,000 mortgage.



These numbers just don't add up. 

The repayment on €200k with 15 years left at 1% would be €1,200. 
€5,000 would be 4 months' arrears. 

If he was to repay the "two months" arrears over two years, he should be down to one month by now.

So it seems that he was €10,000 in arrears which he has reduced to €5,000. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> *The USC payer *
> (He didn't sound like a Freeman to me. )
> Traded up because of an expanded family. Kept the original house The USC mopped up his disposable income.
> BO'C: Do you know how much USC you have paid?
> By the end of this year, I will have paid €60,000 USC.



I was discussing this with Séamus Coffey who suggested that his income must have been over €100k to pay that amount of USC.

So I checked it out. He earned an average of €120k a year since 2011 and he can't pay his mortgage. 

Brendan


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## dereko1969 (29 Aug 2018)

I wonder what research was actually carried out by RTE before having these people on? What checks were done to verify their stories? I didn't hear the interviews so can't comment on the level of questioning carried out but from your reports it seems none were really challenged on their stories.
Poor state of affairs.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2018)

dereko1969 said:


> I wonder what research was actually carried out by RTE before having these people on?



I don't know. I suspect very little. They were probably introduced to RTE by David Hall to show that poor innocent victims who were doing their best were being thrown to the vultures. 



dereko1969 said:


> I didn't hear the interviews so can't comment on the level of questioning carried out



You can listen back here. It's only 12 minutes. 

[broken link removed]


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## Bronte (29 Aug 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> *The first guy sounds credible. *
> Lost his job 3 years ago. Kept paying something but less than the full amount. He was the equivalent of 2 months in arrears. In August 2017 he did a deal to pay off the 2 months' arrears over 24 months.  He is on a tracker, which is why he thinks his mortgage was sold.
> 
> Brian O'Connell of RTE said: The loan is less than €5,000 in arrears on a €200,000 mortgage.
> ...



I have not listen to the podcast.

Case Study 1

- So there is no problem with this guy as nothing changes for him, who then is it being brought up as an issue?
- Or did the radio show make it clear he is in no worse a situation now?
- why was he not asked how many times he missed repayments over the years
- seems like the bank helpfully allowed him to pay off the arrrears over 2 years at a level he could afford


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## Bronte (29 Aug 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> *A mum
> *
> Got cancer some years ago - serious illness cover paid off the mortgage on the family home.
> Recovered from cancer.
> ...



- was it asked whether the rent from the rentals covered the mortgage, usc, taxes, property tax, repairs on the rental properties, in simple terms did these top of the market properties ever wash their face
- was it asked if the rental income was diverted into family income instead
- I suspect that both of the above are the case, but because it's a cancer case no radio show is going to go there, so Hall knows this and brings this kind of scenario to RTE ?
- Did RTE ask if Start offered to take the buy to lets and write off the short fall?
- also no information about how there is a charge on the home, but I can well see how in their particular circumstances everything went downhill


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## Bronte (29 Aug 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> *The USC payer *
> (He didn't sound like a Freeman to me. )
> Traded up because of an expanded family. Kept the original house  The USC mopped up his disposable income.
> BO'C: Do you know how much USC you have paid?  By the end of this year, I will have paid €60,000 USC.
> ...



You've stated he was on a salary of 120K
- One assums that the rent on the original home covered the mortgage
- wonder did he get an equity loan as they were called on that home to fund the 2nd property
- one would have to be in full possession of the incomes and rentals to conclude is this large figure of 60K USC is meaningful
- the bank might be right and he might have been a high flyin ggambler, or someone who was reckless as to what was coming in and what one was spending while loading the rental income into the mix of the family accounts.
- I do not understand the patriot reference, sounds like someone influenced by the freeman types, and those people end up with the likes of David Hall eventually
- How did he 'stand up' to the bank
- what deal did he cut? Standing up to the bank sounds like bluffing to me


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> Standing up to the bank sounds like bluffing to me



What this means is that he exploited their inability to repossess his home by not paying what he could pay. 

He might find Start more difficult to deal with. 

Brendan


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## Bronte (29 Aug 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> What this means is that he exploited their inability to repossess his home by not paying what he could pay.
> 
> He might find Start more difficult to deal with.
> 
> Brendan



LOL. Good one.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Nov 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> *The USC payer *
> (He didn't sound like a Freeman to me. )
> Traded up because of an expanded family. Kept the original house The USC mopped up his disposable income.
> BO'C: Do you know how much USC you have paid?
> ...



I have just done a piece with Today Seán O'Rourke on mortgage arrears.

They played the interview with this guy as an introduction.

Cecelia Forrestal from Community Action Network and Julie Sadlier spoke at length about how typical this was.

I lost it. I said that as he was clearly earning €100,000 a year, I had no sympathy for him.


Brendan


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## Bronte (14 Nov 2018)

Well if you lost it on radio you will look like the bad guy.  Was the USC guy in the radio studio?


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Nov 2018)

Hi Bronte

No, it was the same interview which kicked off this thread, I think.  

You can hear me losing it here.

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Nov 2018)

Is it any wonder I lost it? The people I was discussing it with are responsible for the following headline today 

*280,000 People Affected By Mortgage Arrears Or The Threat Of Repossession*


Even the Irish Times falls for it. 

*Tens of thousands in mortgage distress have been ‘abandoned and forgotten’*

There are some 66,000 mortgages in arrears in Ireland, of which 28,000 are in arrears for more than two years. There are currently an estimated 20,000 possession cases before the courts. Based on a minimum of four people per mortgage, the CAN researchers estimate that mortgage possession is affecting the lives of approximately 250,000 people.


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## noproblem (14 Nov 2018)

Don't always agree with you but about time a bit of truth was told on RTE. Well done.   Mr O Rourke should have his finger on the pulse a bit more too and be aware of such goings on.  As Bronte said, you'll be seen as the party pooper by the snowflakes but I wouldn't worry too much about that.


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## Andy836 (14 Nov 2018)

noproblem said:


> Don't always agree with you but about time a bit of truth was told on RTE. Well done.   Mr O Rourke should have his finger on the pulse a bit more too and be aware of such goings on.  As Bronte said, you'll be seen as the party pooper by the snowflakes but I wouldn't worry too much about that.



O'Rourke does have his finger on the pulse. Who is his audience? Who's listening to the radio in the middle of the morning? It probably isn't those working hard to pay their mortgage.


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## Romulan (14 Nov 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Bronte
> 
> No, it was the same interview which kicked off this thread, I think.
> 
> ...



Very enjoyable and on the nail!

Although you may not be getting any more invites.................


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## noproblem (14 Nov 2018)

Andy836 said:


> O'Rourke does have his finger on the pulse. Who is his audience? Who's listening to the radio in the middle of the morning? It probably isn't those working hard to pay their mortgage.



Wow, that's some assumption on your part as to who listens to that programme. As for his having his finger on the pulse? If he had he'd have known the Times article was at best, verrryyyy iffy.


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## Andy836 (14 Nov 2018)

noproblem said:


> Wow, that's some assumption on your part as to who listens to that programme. As for his having his finger on the pulse? If he had he'd have known the Times article was at best, verrryyyy iffy.



But he, and RTE, don't care if it is iffy. They're there to sell advertising. Sympathetic, weepy, bash-the-bank stuff, is what sells and keeps listeners happy.


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## mugsymugsy (14 Nov 2018)

Good on you for telling it like it is. You should be aplauded for telling it like it is. I'm sure you do give sympathy when it is applicable.


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## Delboy (14 Nov 2018)

I heard that piece earlier and thought it was a good radio. The other 2 were probably in expecting an easy listening type interview. And then WHAM!
I calculated at the time that he had to earn 112k to pay 6k in USC, even more than that a few years ago when the rates were higher.

It's so rare to hear anyone question the current agenda. Fair play


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## RedOnion (14 Nov 2018)

@Brendan Burgess 
I can imagine you all went for coffee and a chat after? 

It was a terrible example for them to start with for the topic.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Nov 2018)

Romulan said:


> Although you may not be getting any more invites.................



Hi Romulan

But that is why they invite me on.  For the contrarian view. 

There is a perceived left wing, grievance industry, bias in RTE. But I think it's the because that is the dominant narrative and they reflect that.  

I got the impression that Seán O'Rourke was taken a bit aback at the start, but he did warm to it and gave me plenty of time. He challenged their nonsense on the vulture funds because he was aware of what the CB said yesterday. Didn't he also point out that the lenders are finding it impossible to repossess properties? 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Nov 2018)

RedOnion said:


> I can imagine you all went for coffee and a chat after?



They were rushing off into town to launch their report. 

It was a terrible example, but it was not part of their report. It was RTE's decision to add colour and context. 

It was great that Delboy had drawn our attention to this guy when he first appeared some months ago. 

Brendan


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## lolasweet (15 Jan 2019)

Does anyone know if the mortgages have actually transferred to Start Mortgages yet, it was supposed to be November.


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