# Is there any way I can hold onto my Family Home?



## david r (22 Apr 2014)

After losing my business in the downturn in 2010 and a failed attempt to restart work again in 2014 I now feel that I will  probably never again work. 

I have mortgage debt and judgements to a total of 380K on my family home and an investment property. 

Below I have outlined the amount that I owe including all arrears:
On the investment property including arrears of 50K, I owe 210k with a property value of €150k
On my family home including arrears of €43k I owe €85k with a property value of €275k

I also have a Credit card bill of €5k and a revenue bill for €80k (unsecured)

The bank has what I call criss-cross judgements that can change from the investment property to my family home (they have judgements on both properties) 

I am receiving social welfare payments of €342 per week and a rental income of €700 pm from the rental property. I have no  other assets, investments or savings ?

I am 56 years of age; married with 1 child living at home that is expecting a baby soon and the bank are looking for us to sell all our properties to pay off all our loans. Is there any way I could hold onto my Family Home?

I will be very grateful for any advice as I cannot see anyway out of this mess without loosing my Family Home.


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## Brendan Burgess (22 Apr 2014)

It's unlikely you will be able to keep the home, but you should provide the information in the following format to see if there are any possibilities: 

Standard Format for mortgage arrears and negative equity case studies


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## david r (22 Apr 2014)

HI Brendan,

Thanks for your reply ( even though its not the best of news ). Below I have included the information you asked for.

Income details
Net monthly €1500 pm social Welfare 
Income history: 
Self employed to 2010 and started a back to work scheme in Aug. 2013
Net monthly income of spouse €0
Income history: 
Amount of child benefit received €130
Amount of Mortgage Interest Supplement received €0
Personal circumstances so we can calculate your reasonable living expenses 
The Insolvency Service has published Guidelines for reasonable living expenses based on the family size, whether or not you need a car for work, childcare costs and other exceptional circumstances. By filling in this information, we (or you ) can calculate what your reasonable monthly living expenses should be. 
One adult family or two adult family = 2 adult family
Do you need a car for work or do you use public transport? Yes
Number of 12 - 18 years old: 1
Monthly spend on special circumstances: e.g. exceptional healthcare costs €35 pm



Home loan
Lender: BOI
Amount outstanding: €40,000
Value of home: €275,000
Interest rate: specify whether tracker or SVR or fixed rate SVR 
Monthly repayment €176 ( interest )
Amount in arrears €43,000

Summary of discussions and agreements with the bank
 After a period of burrowing my head in the sand I was on interest only and made most but not all payments while on Marp. They have now said that they have decided not to offer me an ARA because my loan is not sustainable. 

Investment property - Delete if not applicable 
Lender: BOI
Amount outstanding: €80,000
Value of home: €150,000
Interest rate: SVR
Monthly repayment. Not sure as I am resigned to losing this and have not been making payments lately.
Amount in arrears €50,000
Monthly rent received €700

Other loans and creditors - delete those which don't apply to you

Credit Card - amount outstanding €5000
Credit Card - monthly amount you are paying €0
Term loan Amount outstanding €50,000 (frozen)
Term loan term left: The legality of this loan has been brought into question as we are claiming that this loan is an unsecured business loan and the bank acted unjustly in getting a judgement mortgage on it.
Judgement Mortgage; €30,000 (rental of warehouse) 
How important is retaining the family home to you? 
I would like to keep it, but will get rid of it if it means I can get rid of the mortgage associated with it. 



Any other relevant information

What is your preferred realistic outcome? 
1. Sell the investment property.
 2. In the short to medium term I would try to pay interest only on my home loan. Hopefully in the longer term I would be able to pay some capital as well.


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## Brendan Burgess (22 Apr 2014)

Hi David

I find your figures confusing. Is the following correct? 



 |Value|Liability
Home|€275k|€85k
Investment|€150k|€210k
Revenue||€80k
Credit card||€5k
Total|€425k|€375 It's hard to see a  way of retaining your home. 

1) Agree with the bank to sell the investment property. 
2) Transfer the shortfall to your family home
3) You will then have a mortgage of €145k on your family home, which you have no means to pay.


Is your spouse named on all the loans? If not...

1) Sell your home and you will have €190k cash between you 
2) The investment property shortfall of €60k will be set against this, leaving you with €130k 
3) That is €65k each 
If the judgement mortgages are not also against your spouse, she will have €65k and "your" €65k will be set against your debts. 

I don't know if there is any possibility that Bank of Ireland would allow you to sell the family home, but keep the investment as your family home. 

Very unlikely.  

Can your spouse earn an income?


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## Bronte (23 Apr 2014)

I cannot figure out where this went wrong. The home loan is so low and interest only, yet there are such high arrears. And the rent is achieving 700€ a month, with also a low mortgage and yet there are also arrears here. 

Your main problem is you have equity but a lot of debts. The bank will want that equity. 

Can you explain the judgment, you mention it was a business loan originally, is that a company loan? There are seemingly two loans, one for 50K currently frozen, as in no repayments and no interest being added. The 30K then is a judgement, by who?

I wouldn't be so negative about never working again, you're relatively young and that business experience, even though it had to fold, well that's something maybe you could build on again.


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## david r (23 Apr 2014)

Hi Brendan and Bronte,

Sorry for the confusion.

The 50,000 term loan and 30,000 judgement is included in the 210,000 liability in the investment property. The rest is correct.

Thanks for your comments.


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## david r (23 Apr 2014)

Also the is a bill for 80,000 to the revenue that is NOT a secured judgement on any of the properties.

Again sorry for the confusion.


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Apr 2014)

I still don't see how you can retain your home. 

Why did the banks secure the judgements on your investment property? Why did they not secure it on your home? Maybe it amounts to the same thing. 

The best you can hope for is that your spouse retains some cash after the properties are sold. 

The fact the the Revenue debt is not secured on a property does not mean that you don't owe it. If you have the money to pay it, you should pay it.


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## david r (23 Apr 2014)

Brendan,

You say "If you have the money to pay it, you should pay it" . If I had the money I would gladly pay the revenue what I owe them along with the other €355K of my personal  money I lost in the venture. But then again that's show business I suppose. Nobody ever sees that side of the situation.


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Apr 2014)

Hi David 

Not sure what you mean by "nobody sees that side of the situation". I think that most people who consider these problems see all sides of the situation. 

You were in business. You made a property investment.  You incurred liabilities. Your business failed As you say, that is show business.  You seem to have been self-employed rather than to have operated via a limited company. You will have cash when you sell your family home, so you should pay your creditors. 

brendan


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## david r (23 Apr 2014)

Hi Brendan,
After reading your comments I was wondering if I would have a rant or not.  I really wanted to leave this but me being me couldn't let it rest. 

To explain “nobody sees that side of the situation”:  What I was trying to get across was that most self employed people invest firstly their money and then their time into a business.  When things go wrong and this happened to a lot of businesses between 2007 and 2012, even though it may have been due to outside issues that a business had to close (namely banks bringing the country to its knees) these businesses were given no assistance in their struggle. 

Also I found that you were very quick and righteous in comments you made about paying the revenue. You did not think twice about what a business may have gone through trying to pay their staff while trying to stay afloat. Then again you were only POINTING OUT the situation and maybe its people that have gone through such an experience really know what it’s like. 

I for one had no trouble paying my staff and leaving the revenue unpaid while trying to stay afloat. Yes, this may come back to bite me but that’s life I suppose. 

Then again, that’s only me!
David r
P.S I would also like to point out that it is the same banks that the Irish people bailed out that are now putting the gun to these very own people’s heads.  It’s a strange world isn't it?


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## Bronte (23 Apr 2014)

david r said:


> . Nobody ever sees that side of the situation.


 
You're wrong, people do see that side, but it's nobody's fault on here that your business failed, and by saying that I'm not saying it's your fault. If you fail in business that's the risk you take, if the business had succeeded you wouldn't have expected to share the financial sucess with anyone and as a businessman you should know that. 

You're in a very precarious position, and I couldn't begin to imagine the nightmares you've been having. So all you can do now is try and get the best advice to see you through this.

In relation to revenue, people, particularly well known politicians have been through the mill because of not paying revenue.  But I completely understand why you paid the staff and tried to keep everything going, others might think differently, mostly people who have never been in business.  It was a really tough environment for many people.  I do believe it is possible to negotiate with revenue, they have options like payment plans and in worse case scenarios debt writeoff.  But first you need to deal with your bank.  And am well aware of banks pulling overdrafts overnnight and converting business loans into personal debt.  But that's a debate for a different thread.


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## AlbacoreA (23 Apr 2014)

Isn't that the point of this section of the forum. To look at money issues, based on the facts, with no other baggage to cloud the opinions given.The intend is to give clarity.


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Apr 2014)

> After a period of burrowing my head in the sand I was on interest only and made most but not all payments while on Marp.





> The legality of this loan has been brought into question as we are  claiming that this loan is an unsecured business loan and the bank acted  unjustly in getting a judgement mortgage on it.





> When things go wrong and this happened to a lot of businesses between  2007 and 2012, even though it may have been due to outside issues that a  business had to close (namely banks bringing the country to its knees)  these businesses were given no assistance in their struggle.


Hi David 

Some people have a tendency to blame others for their predicament.  This acts as a barrier to them facing up to their their problems and will make solving them a lot more difficult. You need to focus on the problems you face today and to see what you can salvage from the situation. 

Depending on whether your wife is on the loans or not,  she may be able to retain some of the proceeds of sale.  

From your description, these debts appear to be yours personally, and not those of a limited company.  Denial of these debts "the loan is an unsecured business loan" and "Also there is a bill for 80,000 to the revenue that is NOT a secured judgement on any of the properties." will get you nowhere. It's similar to burying your head in the sand. 

You may well feel angry that the government bailed out depositors and bondholders but don't let that anger stop you from getting the best out of your current predicament.


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## david r (23 Apr 2014)

Hi All,

Thanks again for all the input.

I'm old enough to know that life goes on no matter what. I have had situations far, far worse than this in my life.  As for my view on the Banks ( not this or any other government) closing business across Ireland, I think I am entitled to this as well as it is any other persons entitlement to their views. Surely it is not against the forums rules to air these views while discussing a financial  matter. 

Enough said about that!

The reason I started this post was to get advice which thankfully I have received freely and am grateful to ALL that contributed. Up until now if nothing else new I have now realised that MY loans are my own and not my wife's.

Thanks again for all the help.

David r


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## Dermot (23 Apr 2014)

david r.  I am really sorry to see you in the position that you are in.  One question.  
Are any of the the properties in joint names with your wife?.


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## Bronte (24 Apr 2014)

david r said:


> . Up until now if nothing else new I have now realised that MY loans are my own and not my wife's.


 
If that's the case you might want to consider some professional help, but you'll have to pay.  There is decent equity in the home and you might be very lucky and be able to hold onto your wife's share.


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## david r (24 Apr 2014)

Hi Dermot,

The family home is. The investment property is owned solely by myself. 

David r


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## david r (24 Apr 2014)

Thanks Bronte.


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