# Removal of Aggressive Tenant



## Mark Barrett (19 Apr 2016)

Any Tenancy / PRTB experts out there - Advice very welcome. I am a Landlord with 4 bedroom house with 4 tenants. I recently issued termination notices and 3 of the tenants departed but I am having difficulty evicting the one remaining tenant who has been a tenant since 2009. This particular tenant has a history of aggressive and intimidating behaviour. To complicate matters further, I also live at the address in a quality Wooden/Seomra unit in the back garden. I have my own separate entrance and the Seomra area is only accessible by me. The remaining tenant is currently under service of an “”Intention to Sell”” 168 day notice which stipulates a July 15 termination date and I fully expect him to over hold beyond this date and I also expect he will play the situation out until the District Court / Sherriff procedure comes into play. My calculation is that it might be mid 2017 before I can finally close the situation. This tenant is aggressive and has been a thorn in my side since he moved on 6/7 years ago. The current situation is that this tenant now occupies the 4 bedroom house and I no longer receive the rent from the departed tenants. I have offered him a payment to depart but to no avail. One last complication is that I pay the utility bills and previously each of the 4 tenants contributed a fixed amount – now I must pay the bills with only one fixed amount being contributed. Am I legally obliged to continue paying the bills considering there is no written contract? I have got myself into an awful mess. Anyone any idea how I can avoid waiting til mid 2017 for closure? Would an illegal eviction be advisable?


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## moneybox (19 Apr 2016)

Dreadful situation and sympathies to you. The law is a complete shambles in this area and something will have to be done about it soon.  Whatever you do, dont force an unlawful eviction.  I saw a recent thread on boards.ie of a similiar case, do a search and see what solutions were offered.


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## Mark Barrett (20 Apr 2016)

They recently changed the law which further enhanced the rights of the tenant. Little chance of Landlord rights being improved, I am afraid.


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## Bronte (20 Apr 2016)

Mark Barrett said:


> Would an illegal eviction be advisable?



It might be depending on the figures.  You do the maths.

Why are the utility bills in your name?  Are you registered with the PRTB?

How is the tenant aggressive?  Are you afraid of him?  Were the previous tenants?

Are you trying to sell the house.  What is his reason for refusing to budge?


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## Mark Barrett (20 Apr 2016)

Bills in my name because, my utilities share same connection and bills cover both dwellings. Yes, to PRTB Reg. Tenant makes demands in extremely assertive manner and if they are not met - he resorts to shouting to the degree that even neighbours can hear him. Not afraid of him but I have an aversion to the unpleasantness and I am not naturally aggressive and feel unable to respond. Yes, trying to sell house. He won't budge because despite his constant complaints - he is very happy with the place and the location. He is a Psycho I am afraid!!


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## elcato (20 Apr 2016)

First things first. Tell him he has to split the utilities 50/50 from now on. That might get him to make a start at moving. Secondly he may surprise you and actually move out. Tell him you family are coming to stay in July so you need vacant possession. Time to get tough with this guy.


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## Mark Barrett (20 Apr 2016)

He won't agree to 50/50 and how can I force him? If I stop paying the bills - I lose my own connections. As far as I can see, my only option is to wait it out and get a favourable PRTB ruling and then if required, get a court order. I expect this could all take about a year. Any clarification on this timescale from anyone out there would be appreciated. The law is extremely biased against Landlords and seems completely unbalanced.


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## elcato (20 Apr 2016)

Has he said he has no intention of moving ? Has he threatened you with PRTB if you try to ask him to leave ?


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## G7979 (20 Apr 2016)

Bear in mind that until July he hasn't done anything wrong so you actually don't have a problem, I am guessing that you gave the tenants all the same notice to depart and unfortunately its tough luck on you that the others are already gone. You offered him and incentive to leave and he declined your offer. Keep it friendly and polite as much as you can until nearing the end of June and then start asking him about his expected departure date and handover plans. 

Why are you in the garden shed instead of in the house? I presume he is only paying for a room so move back in and take advantage of the empty rooms, and get started on the clean up to prepare for sale. 

As it stands he is altogether far too cosy for my liking in his lovely big house all to himself, no incentive there to move out. If I could rent a house for the low price of a room, I think I would take advantage and stay as long as I could as well.

*******Note this is very much dependant on the type of lease agreement you have in place. Moving in yourself may not be possible.

Alternatively have you a generous friend you could move in with for a couple of months? Transfer all utilities into his name and leave the premises, while you are depending on the utilities he will continue to let you pay for them. I presume you have a note of all outstanding bills and have notified him you will deduct them from his deposit if he does not pay his share? Has he paid 1/5 of the bills up to this point? (4 rooms plus yourself) He may be objecting to going from 20% of the bills to 50%.


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## Thirsty (20 Apr 2016)

Agree, move out & stop paying the bills & get started on legal proceedings


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## mathepac (21 Apr 2016)

Alternatively you and a bunch of friends move in (temporarily) and make your man's life a misery


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## Mark Barrett (21 Apr 2016)

Unbelievebly, I came home tonight and saw the light on on one of the spare rooms. Knocked on front door and he has a friend staying in the room.  Completely nuts!! It may be just for the night, so no point in panicking yet. And we Landlords have no legal protection in this scenario. Being honest, I find myself considering Illegal Eviction. By the time this is all sorted out - I will be out of pocket to a worse extent than whatever damages the PRTB might award against me.  Some really interesting ideas here and very much appreciated. There is no lease agreement so I guess the default PRTB standards apply. It seems there are 2 areas where I may have some leverage. The bills and the empty rooms.


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## vandriver (21 Apr 2016)

He has no rights to the empty rooms.Put a padlock on them.
You sound unbelievably soft.Time to grow a pair.


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## Mark Barrett (21 Apr 2016)

.


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## Bronte (21 Apr 2016)

Mark Barrett said:


> Unbelievebly, I came home tonight and saw the light on on one of the spare rooms. Knocked on front door and he has a friend staying in the room.  Completely nuts!! It may be just for the night, so no point in panicking yet. And we Landlords have no legal protection in this scenario. Being honest, I find myself considering Illegal Eviction. By the time this is all sorted out - I will be out of pocket to a worse extent than whatever damages the PRTB might award against me.  Some really interesting ideas here and very much appreciated. There is no lease agreement so I guess the default PRTB standards apply. It seems there are 2 areas where I may have some leverage. The bills and the empty rooms.



Last time I looked an illegal eviction cost 10K (though it could have been 20K) so think about that first.  Years ago I figured out that going the legal route or risking the fine - it was cheaper to do my worst.  No idea right now what the fines are, but I reckon doing everything the proper way, notice, emails, proofs of behaviour, is best course of action.  Then it's a judgement call.

Personally the bribary route is what has worked for me the one time I needed it.

Can't remember now, but there are rules about the utilities, so I don't think you can just cut them off, check the PRTB rules.  And you should never leave them in your name if the tenant is to pay them.  But in your case you were also part of it so that makes it very messy.

If perchance you sell the house and heading to Oz, the PRTB will be wasting their time pursuing you, it would also be difficult if the tenant doesn't know where you are to tell them.


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## Bronte (21 Apr 2016)

vandriver said:


> He has no rights to the empty rooms.Put a padlock on them.
> You sound unbelievably soft.Time to grow a pair.



He has no right to go in the house without permission.


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## MugsGame (21 Apr 2016)

Does he actually have a written lease? Is the tenancy registered with the PRTB? If he was actually a licensee renting rooms in your dwelling you could evict him at any time and he would have no recourse to the PRTB.

You should move back into the main part of the house now to assert your rights as a resident homeowner.


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## Bronte (21 Apr 2016)

MugsGame said:


> Does he actually have a written lease? Is the tenancy registered with the PRTB? If he was actually a licensee renting rooms in your dwelling you could evict him at any time and he would have no recourse to the PRTB.
> 
> You should move back into the main part of the house now to assert your rights as a resident homeowner.



You don't have to have a written lease to be a landlord/tenant.  It's debatable about the rent a room scheme, and then he'd have to be also below 12K rent.  I know that you can be in a house with a flat attached and that complies, but it was my understanding that a stand alone building on the property falls foul of the rules.


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## MugsGame (21 Apr 2016)

Bronte said:


> You don't have to have a written lease to be a landlord/tenant.


Indeed, but in the absence of a written lease it may be unclear what the intended nature of the arrangement was. If the tenant has nothing in writing, and the owner moves back into the main part of property, it could be hard for the tenant to prove that they are not a licensee. Not that I'd recommend that with a violent tenant.



> It's debatable about the rent a room scheme, and then he'd have to be also below 12K rent. I know that you can be in a house with a flat attached and that complies, but it was my understanding that a stand alone building on the property falls foul of the rules.


Rent a room scheme determines qualification for tax relief, it does not determine whether someone is a licensee. If you lived in a large four bedroom house, you could easily rent out three of the rooms to licensees and exceed the rent a room scheme limit. That said I see this particular tenancy is registered with the PRTB as such.


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## Bronte (22 Apr 2016)

MugsGame said:


> Rent a room scheme determines qualification for tax relief, it does not determine whether someone is a licensee. If you lived in a large four bedroom house, you could easily rent out three of the rooms to licensees and exceed the rent a room scheme limit. That said I see this particular tenancy is registered with the PRTB as such.



Sorry you are correct Mugsgame about the tax relief, so yes it could still be rent a room.


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## dereko1969 (22 Apr 2016)

Move into the house. You have rented one room to the tenant, not the house. You can enter and leave as often as you like once you are back in the main house. Lock all the other bedrooms.


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## monagt (22 Apr 2016)

Its not technically a Rent a Room as the owner and the tenants do not share an entrance (AFAIK)

Many are going to find this out in years to come (IMHO)


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## facetious (22 Apr 2016)

dereko1969 said:


> Move into the house. You have rented one room to the tenant, not the house. You can enter and leave as often as you like once you are back in the main house. Lock all the other bedrooms.


But the house was rented as a single unit (or even if leases for separate rooms) therefore the house still has exclusive use to any tenant living therein. As Bronte has indicated in her post above, any entry by the landlord would be a breach of the tenant/s rights to exclusive and peaceful use of the property.


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## Bronte (23 Apr 2016)

That's correct facetious and every action of the landlord will go against him in a higher figure to be paid if this goes to the PRTB.  he has to look as if all his actions are reasonable and has to demonstrate the tenant in a negative light.


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## Leo (25 Apr 2016)

monagt said:


> Its not technically a Rent a Room as the owner and the tenants do not share an entrance (AFAIK)
> 
> Many are going to find this out in years to come (IMHO)



There's also another potential issue here unless the OP has planning permission that allows the cabin to be occupied as a separate dwelling. It would be very rare for such planning to be granted.


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## Mark Barrett (25 Apr 2016)

Very astute Leo. There is no planning permission. How do you think this might effect things?


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## Leo (25 Apr 2016)

Mark Barrett said:


> Very astute Leo. There is no planning permission. How do you think this might effect things?



I'm not knowledgeable enough on the ins and out of tenancy disputes to say if it will have any real impact, but it might raise flags if the PRTB become aware you've been illegally living on site of a house that's rented out.


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## fixer (13 May 2016)

You need to pay someone to remove this guy from the house after the date if you don`t want to remove him , change the locks and take back your property....pack up his items, enough is enough.


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## Mark Barrett (13 May 2016)

Got him out - Cost me 10K.


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## G7979 (13 May 2016)

Two months ahead of schedule, well done! 

Was that a bonus you negotiated with him or a penalty from the PRTB for evicting him?


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## Mark Barrett (13 May 2016)

Would have gone all the way to a PRTB Dispute, appeals, courts, sheriff and 3 empty rooms. I guess about a year ahead of the real schedule. Seems like you have not read all the posts G7979.


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## Bronte (13 May 2016)

Mark Barrett said:


> Got him out - Cost me 10K.



You paid him that much 

I see by your next post you did the calculations though.  On the possibilities.  That's the reality for many landlords.  (fingers crossed)


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## ant dee (13 May 2016)

Sad thing that this is a reasonable amount, right?


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## cremeegg (13 May 2016)

ant dee said:


> Sad thing that this is a reasonable amount, right?



I don't know about reasonable but realistic I would say.

I think that the OP probably conducted his business as well as he could have under the circumstances. I would have waited until the notice expired but that may have worked out a lot worse, at least now the OP has his property back at a painful but realistic price.


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## Mark Barrett (13 May 2016)

Being honest, I would have gone to 15K. The whole procedure to achieve eviction could have been 18 months. The Landlord / Tenant landscape is completely unbalanced. The regulations are totally biased towards the tenant. The result will be many Landlords deciding it just isn't worth it and leaving the market. Therefore fewer rentals available in Ireland. Exactly the opposite of what the Government has intended.


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## LS400 (13 May 2016)

Wow, I know you had your reasons to pay out so much, but the other 3 tenants, were they to be of the same bad minded individuals as the last guy, must be kicking themselves they didn't hang on, to also make a mint off you.
Any bad tenant seeing above, would knows now, if not before, how easy it is to extract money from the Landlord, a title I actually hate as it give the impression of superiority.

What is I wonder is the PRTB`s` opinion on your decision to solve the situation you were put into by the tenant. I would assume they can happily file it away as "solved" and take credit for it.
It is to me, like having a police force, but, solving your own crimes, due to the fact their is no confidence in the organisation, as it seems very one sided.. Crazy!! And they get paid for this level of unfairness.


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## G7979 (13 May 2016)

Sorry Mark 
I did read all the posts, but perhaps I wasnt clear. 

He wasnt due to leave until Jul 15 so thats what I meant by 2 months ahead of schedule, the PRTB route for an eviction means you would have been still waiting for him to leave this time next year most likely!

I simply meant did you offer him 10K to go knowing that is what the likely outcome would be if you illegally evicted him based on the other posts, or did you go through with the illegal eviction as you were suggesting and has the PRTB already heard his complaint and awarded against you.

I was more curious on their speed of hearing the case of an aggrieved tenant, can you give us a timeline on that, from when you evicted him to receiving a communication from the PRTB, how long did it take them to hear the case? Less than a month has passed since you last posted.


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## Delboy (13 May 2016)

Let me get this right....have you handed this person €10k to vacate your house?????


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## Mark Barrett (14 May 2016)

*SCHEDULE*

FEB 03RD 2016 – ISSUE 168 DAY NOTICE

JUL 22ND 2016 – TENANT OVERHOLDS (ALREADY MADE IT CLEAR THAT THIS IS HIS INTENTION)

JUL 23RD 2016 – SUBMIT DISPUTE

NOV 22ND 2016 – HEARING (ESTIMATED DATE)

DEC 12TH 2016 – HEARING RESULT (ESTIMATED DATE)

JAN 12TH 2017 – APPEAL SUBMITTED (ESTIMATED DATE)

FEB 12TH 2017 – APPEAL HEARD (ESTIMATED DATE)

FEB 28TH 2017 – APPEAL RESULT (ESTIMATED DATE)

APRIL 15TH 2017 – CIRCUIT COURT HEARING (ESTIMATED DATE)

MAY 03RD 2017 – SHERRIFF IMPLEMENTS EVICTION (ESTIMATED DATE)

*15 MONTHS TO EVICT TENANT – 12 MONTHS FOR NEWER TENANT – CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATES!!*


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## Bronte (14 May 2016)

The real truth of those dates is that the vast majority of it is a waste of time with the PRTB.  If that was cut out and you could just go straight to court, as it was before the PRTB, it wouldn't be so bad.

I wonder how many landlords ever got back rent when they got an eviction order from the PRTB.  I suspect not one.

Also the PRTB is funded by landlords, BUT they will not go to court in cases like Marks, AND conversely if Mark had illegally evicted they will go to court with him for the tenant.

The reason is the PRTB knows a tenant will never pay.


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## mtk (14 May 2016)

Mark this  is a horrific  scenario to have to pay someone to leave like that . poor you


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## valery (14 May 2016)

Would the €10,000 be considered as earnings by Revenue?


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## Mark Barrett (17 May 2016)

To be honest, the stress relief having this guy out of my life is worth it. He is a psycho!! Life is short!!! Interesting question regarding revenue but I can't be bothered. I have washed my hands of him!


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## JoeRoberts (17 May 2016)

valery said:


> Would the €10,000 be considered as earnings by Revenue?


And can OP use it as a tax deductible expense ? Think I would put it in anyway and let Revenue challenge it if they want.


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## Mark Barrett (17 May 2016)

Interesting idea. Certainly, it would appear justified and I do have a signed receipt from the recipient.


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## PaddyW (18 May 2016)

Wow, that is a ridiculous amount of money to give him, but I can see that it is a huge stress relief to have this guy gone, plus it saved you another year at least of torture. It's obvious the man has no morals or even an ounce of shame judging by his carry on. I'm a tenant but I always find it is better to work with the 'landlord' rather than against them. But seems some tenants will go to any lengths. Shame on them (and vice versa in some cases).


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## dub_nerd (26 May 2016)

valery said:


> Would the €10,000 be considered as earnings by Revenue?





JoeRoberts said:


> And can OP use it as a tax deductible expense ? Think I would put it in anyway and let Revenue challenge it if they want.





Mark Barrett said:


> Interesting idea. Certainly, it would appear justified and I do have a signed receipt from the recipient.



Sounds a bit hairy putting it in as an expense, but no harm trying. However, I'd say the ex-tenant fully deserves to be shopped to the Revenue about his unconventional "income". The signed receipt is a bit of a smoking gun. I presume you don't have his new address, but is there any chance you have his PPS number on anything?


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## Mark Barrett (26 May 2016)

My great fear is that within a few years tenants will have so much power that eviction in some cases will be impossible and the tenant will actually gain adversarial possession of the dwelling. Whats if some day, Ireland voted in a very left wing government. I do understand the need for protection from poverty legislation and being honest I have some sympathy with such policies but I guess one wants to maintain ones hard earned wealth as well.      http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...e-into-homelessness-committee-hears-1.2661655


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## Delboy (26 May 2016)

Can't have evictions in Ireland. The Brits evicted some of our forefathers during the famine so it's now a no-go


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## Firefly (26 May 2016)

Mark Barrett said:


> Got him out - Cost me 10K.



Is it any wonder landlords are getting out of the buy-to-let market or switching to Airbnb? Capital appreciation is the only potential lure for the landlord now it seems and even that will be taxed heavily.

Take a look at this!

http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/...-hearing-terminating-a-very-difficult-tenancy

I won't be buying a btl soon anyway


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## moneybox (27 May 2016)

Firefly said:


> Take a look at this!
> 
> http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/...-hearing-terminating-a-very-difficult-tenancy
> 
> I won't be buying a btl soon anyway



Awful story, the system is an absolute joke.


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## Mark Barrett (9 Jun 2016)

I have over last few years made numerous phone calls to the prtb regarding legal tenant evictions and other related issues and I have recorded the their answers in no particular order. I hope this is a useful resource for other landlords. Some of it is minutia but still useful to know.


LANDLORDS MUST REMEMBER THAT NOTICES MUST CONTAIN DETAILED LEGAL CONTENT. EVEN THE  MOST DILIGENT LANDLORD MAY MAKE ERRORS. IN ALL HONESTLY – ISSUING A NOTICE WITHOUT HAVING A SOLICITOR REVIEWING IT IS VERY UNWISE!!!!!


What if landlord issues “intention to sell”  notice but then decides to move into house himself and let to a licensee / lodger. Does he have to offer this tenancy to evicted tenants? *The act only mentions taking in a new tenant but does not cover licensees which would indicate that  one is free to proceed.*


During adjudication –do parties get a chance to present submissions privately to adjudicator. *No – all public*


How long after adjudication hearing does one hear result. *2/3 weeks*


How long after dispute is submitted is other party notified.  *1/2 weeks*


Does  tenant have access to full tenancy registration form or just the tenancy database? *He gets letter confirming his registration but not full details.*


Can I be asked in an overholding dispute why I want to sell the house? *Possibly*


Mediation – does it happen over an hour – a day – a week etc..... *2  - 4 days but this be approx*


Is the waiting period for mediation less than adjudication? *Mediation - 9 weeks // – adjudication 3/4 months*


Can a tenant sue a landlord for allegations made at hearing that landlord cannot prove? *Better to have evidential back up*


My phone number is private but it must be included in the dispute form. Tenant receives copy of this form but I do not want tenant to have my number. How do I resolve this?  *Attach a note to dispute form requesting number be kept private*


Also, can tenant access my mobile number by looking at registration on PRTB website? *No*


In a dispute hearing, is either party obliged to submit the questions they intend asking prior to the dispute hearing?* No – only copies of documents intended to be used at hearing must be shared.*


If landlord issues notice as he intends to move into house, what period must expire before he can let house again.  *One year lapse and one can do as one pleases.*


Is it ok if landlord want to offer tenant payment to leave or could this be interpreted as intimidation? *Not prohibited*


If a tenant is evicted with an “”intention to sell”” notice and the landlord afterwards changes his mind and decides to move permanently into house – can landlord be sued? *Landlord would be in breach but can inform tenant and appeal to PRTB and request permission from PRTB*


Does PRTB get involved if tenant does not pay utility bills? *Tenant obliged to pay bills and dispute can be launched.*


Does failure to stipulate “”3 month requirement”” on intention to sell notice render it invalid? *Most likely not omission might not invalidate notice. Sometimes notices with just one simple error are validated and sometimes not.*


Is it a requirement on eviction notices that the landlord states that should the “”intention to sell”” not be followed through with that the current tenants have first option should house become available again or is this just presumed? *Yes must be included but omission might not invalidate notice.  Sometimes notices with just one simple error are validated and sometimes not.*


If I issue notice because selling dwelling and then tenant refuses to pay rent – can I issue 2nd notice for rent arrears – does this effect original day notice? *Yes – notices can run concurrently*

What happens if tenant denies receiving notice letter? *Bring witness, deliver in person, take video of delivery*

Can I have a solicitor issue the 14 day notice letters to ensure tenant cannot deny receipt. *Unusual but can be done*

Please clarify meaning of “require house for own use” does it mean that I must have no other place to live or that I simply want to move in myself? *New legislation tightening up this issue and declaration document proposed. One PRTB Rep says legally ambiguous and one says “wants” is sufficient.*

If dispute opened by landlord – how does PRTB communicate with tenant re dispute? *Phone or letter.*

Is it advisable to notify PRTB when notice has been issued? *Can do so if I wish.*

Should I put tenancy registration number on the notice. *Can do but don’t have to.*

Should I stipulate eviction date exactly on the required number of day expiration or should I choose a date 2 or 3 day after. *Better to choose a date 2 or 3 days after to avoid any ambiguity.*

If  I need to remove multiple tenants in one dwelling  for overholding – do I (or PRTB) – take one case against all tenants or a case against each individually? *One case against all.*

Regarding commitment to sell notice – must I sell within 3 months or just show evidence of intention to sell. *Show evidence*

What if rent is paid after 28 day non payment notice is issued – does landlord have to withdraw notice? *No – landlord does not have to withdraw*

Can solicitor represent landlord at adjudication hearing or mediation process? *Yes*

Having issued 14 day warning for non payment of rent and tenant addresses arrears on last day of month but then fails to pay following months rent by 14th day,  must I go through whole procedure again? *Yes, procedure must be started again.*

If tenant does not leave at expiry of notice – does continued acceptance of rent into my account deactivate notice? *Continued receipt of rent by landlord does not deactivate notice or constitute a recognition by landlord of an ongoing tenancy.*

If tenant overholds – does this deactivate commitment to sell? *No it doesn’t – if house becomes available to let again – tenant must be given first refusal.*

If notice is issued on commitment to sell but after tenant leaves the landlord decides to live in the house. Can landlord appeal to have PRTB permit this? *There may be some flexibility here?*

In a house sharing scenario, does period of notice depend on when each individual entered the house or is each individual entitled to period that earliest tenant entitled to?*  Each tenant only entitled to period relating to their individual entry date..*

Bacause each tenant is only entitled to a period relating to their time in the house – the intention to sell cannot be implemented until longest tenant leaves so the “3 month intention to sell” commitment cannot be met. How does this effect things? *Doesn’t effect things as long as I don’t re let the house at any stage. 3 months after last tenant departs is fine.*


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## Leo (10 Jun 2016)

Hey Mark, thanks for the above, very interesting.

Would you be interested in writing up a summary of your experiences we could put up as a Key Post on the topic?


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## facetious (10 Jun 2016)

Mark Barrett said:


> If landlord issues notice as he intends to move into house, what period must expire before he can let house again. *One year lapse and one can do as one pleases.*


The RTA 2004 states:
(i) the dwelling is vacated by the person referred to in subparagraph (a) *within the period of 6 months *from expiry of the period of notice required to be given by the notice or, if a dispute in relation to the validity of the notice was referred to the Board under Part 6 for resolution, the final determination of the dispute, ...

So who does one believe?

Thanks for a very informative post, Mark.


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