# My parents purchased a property that is literally falling down.



## PatrickJ (19 Feb 2016)

My elderly parents purchased an investment property approximately ten years ago.  The property is thirty years old and is part of a relatively well-to-do estate.  They had a building surveyor survey the property prier to purchase and placed most of their live savings into the property save for a small mortgage to pay for the remainder.

They leased the property to a professional couple who have lived there for ten years without much problem, however last year they called my parents to say there was movement in the floor tiles i.e. crack tiles in the kitchen.  My folks replaced the tiles and everyone was happy.  A couple of weeks later the tenants noticed a large crack running up the gable wall. We had an engineer come out and look at it and he said it was some form of subsidence but made no further comment.

To cut a long story short the property has drastically deteriorated and without exaggeration cracks are appearing everywhere.  One crack is so large you could insert your hand through it.  The insurance company are giving them the run around and have sent umpteen of their representatives out to investigate the cause and keep bulling my folks into having every test imaginable on the property.  All diagnostics are so far fruitless and have cost almost 15k.  The insurance company have told them they will not see a cent of this money back as it is merely a scoping study.

We have been told pyrite is not an issue due to the property age.  The neighbors are getting peeved and the tenants have said they cannot stay much longer.

Legally where can they go from here?


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## 44brendan (19 Feb 2016)

PatrickJ said:


> Legally where can they go from here?


Don't see any legal option for them. Suing the surveyor might be an option but I doubt if it has much hope of success. Perhaps some other poster can give you better news but given that this is likely to be a site subsidence issue the only obvious recourse would be to the insurance company. What do the mean by merely a scoping study?


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## Leo (19 Feb 2016)

44brendan said:


> Don't see any legal option for them. Suing the surveyor might be an option but I doubt if it has much hope of success.



Their terms of reference usually have them well covered. Subsidence like this isn't something that could be detected/predicted by a visual survey. Given the survey took place 10 years ago and issues have only come to the fore now, pursuing the surveyor is a lost cause.

Any water leaks on the property?


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## Black_Adder (19 Feb 2016)

The first thing is have you got insurance on the property - who if you make a claim will immediately deny any liability.

Second - get an engineer who knows this sort of process - Eric Waterman Consulting Engineers, Union Quay Cork - regardless of where you live.

I do not think there is an obvious legal remedy here - yet.

You have to establish what has caused subsidence - get that done.

Then revert.


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## PatrickJ (20 Feb 2016)

Thanks guys for all responses.  For what its worth there are now pictures falling off of the wall!  Its well possible the house will be deemed a danger to live in.

Leo, one of the engineers had a hydro static pressure test carried out on the mains.  The test results showed no water escaping but the air test proved some issue??  

No other property in the estate has these issues.

There is a down stairs bathroom (that we know was not part of original build) when the pipework was examined there was clay within the pipework.  This was dismissed by the insurance company.

Brendan, the insurance company we believe are merely trying to run my parents out of money.   They know it would not be financially possible for the average person to keep paying engineers.  15K has been spent so far and any possible cause has been revolted against by the insurance company.


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## moneybox (20 Feb 2016)

Your parents really need to get legal advice here, the insurance company cant be fobbing them off like this.  Does their house insurance cover for subsidence?


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Feb 2016)

Black_Adder said:


> You have to establish what has caused subsidence - get that done.





moneybox said:


> the insurance company cant be fobbing them off like this.



I think that Black Adder has nailed it. You have to find the cause of the problem before you can proceed. 

The insurance company does not appear to be fobbing your parents off. They can't be expected to pay out unless they know that the risk was insured against. 

Brendan


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## cremeegg (21 Feb 2016)

There is no mention of an Insurance Assessor here. 

Your parents should have appointed an Assessor from the start. I would assume that they did so but there is no mention of their opinion.


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## Black_Adder (22 Feb 2016)

Cremeegg- the assessor is usually the Insurance Company nominee. I am suggesting their own engineer and one that knows how insurance companies work - which is deny the claim.


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## Black_Adder (22 Feb 2016)

Patrick J - I am not getting a clear picture of the situation.
You seem to have insurance.

Who is the engineer reporting to?

The cause of the subsidence can be tricky - I am just passing on experience. 

Its not lawyer time yet.


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## cremeegg (22 Feb 2016)

Black_Adder said:


> Cremeegg- the assessor is usually the Insurance Company nominee. I am suggesting their own engineer and one that knows how insurance companies work - which is deny the claim.



This is not correct.

The insured person can make the claim themselves or they can engage a specialist called a "loss assessor" to manage the claim on their behalf. A loss assessor works for the insured and not for the insurance company. The loss assessor would further engage any additional professionals that might be required, engineers etc. While this process is short circuited in most small claims. I would strongly advise the appointment of a loss assessor in this case. 

Blackadder is thinking of a loss adjuster.

A loss adjuster often works for an insurance company and will ensure that the insurer will not have to make a high pay-out to the policyholder. They often have in-depth knowledge of the insurer’s policies so that they can use the small print to their advantage, often without the knowledge of the policyholder. The insurer pays their fees.

A loss assessor will work for the policyholder and are independent to ensure that the policyholder gains their full entitlement, utilising the small print in order to ensure that the damage is fully compensated. They often work on a no-win-no-fee basis, so if the policyholder doesn’t have a valid claim then they do not pay.


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## Black_Adder (22 Feb 2016)

Basically - an engineer - which was my original point.


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## cremeegg (24 Feb 2016)

Black_Adder said:


> Basically - an engineer - which was my original point.



No. An insurance assessor is not an engineer, basically or any other way.


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## Black_Adder (24 Feb 2016)

cremeegg - if i was trying to find out what caused subsidence I would use an engineer - end of.
You can use whoever you want - I have won claims - have you?


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## peteb (24 Feb 2016)

Black_Adder said:


> cremeegg - if i was trying to find out what caused subsidence I would use an engineer - end of.
> You can use whoever you want - I have won claims - have you?



Sweeping claim.  Quite general  **no pun intented**.  What type of claims? How many does one person have?


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## Black_Adder (24 Feb 2016)

Peteb - this is merely trying to help an individual who seems to have a subsidence issue. 

I have been through the process a number of times - but I am not offering a service.


I would use an engineer first - that is what I would do. You can use whatever or whomever you want - good luck as it is not straight forward.

Can we go back to the original postings and you might see what I think the issue is.

In any event unless the original poster reverts - I am saying no more on this.


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## PMU (24 Feb 2016)

Black_Adder said:


> The first thing is have you got insurance on the property - who if you make a claim will immediately deny any liability.
> 
> Second - get an engineer who knows this sort of process


Your parents should first check their insurance policy to ensure it covers damage due to subsidence/ground heave, and are there any exemptions/restrictions. For example where a property is rented out.  Then follow the advice of 'Black_Adder' and obtain a structural report from a chartered engineer with experience, including the submission of reports to insurance companies, in this area.


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## Leo (25 Feb 2016)

Black_Adder said:


> I would use an engineer first - that is what I would do. You can use whatever or whomever you want - good luck as it is not straight forward.



From the OP, it looks like en engineer was their first port of call. 

What isn't clear at this stage was who sourced or engaged the engineer and what their level of experience was. Or what professionals the remainder of the 15k spent to date has gone on. 

At this stage, engaging a good assessor with experience, and very importantly, good professional contacts who can get to the bottom of the cause, and subsequently the OP's rights might be money well spent.


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## Black_Adder (25 Feb 2016)

..which is why I said Eric Waterman BE - not just anybody. 
He would cost a lot less than €15k
and its not any assessor or any engineer - just happen to know he has dealt with similar issues.


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