# Very difficult management secretary and no keys to building



## munchy (13 Mar 2013)

I have an apartment in Dublin and having trouble with the management company. It seems we no longer have it externally run and now it is self-governed. I have never paid too much attention to the AGM letters and notifications as I dont live there at present. I know that I should have and even attended meetings and perhaps tried to get on the  committee, but I have been under some pressure focussing on other pressing issues till now. 

However, I have tenants in there and I have a letting agent who looks after them on my behalf. But the woman who "runs" the building is being extremely difficult, and it seems, terrifies most other owners and tenants in the building. I wouldnt mind except that it does affect my tenants. This has been ongoing for some 4 years now and we have overcome each hurdle. But from going into shrill screaming fits whenever she seems my letting agent and tells him that he is trespassing and she will call the guards every time she sees him, to refusing to have the lift fixed for 6 weeks because "everyone was using it to transport their bicycles upstairs" etc etc. Ive also had damage to my roof and it took months of endless diplomatic letters and a solicitor to get her to call out the insurance company to have a look and fix it.  Very emotional and volatile person. Its been a headache.

My tenants lost their keys 5 weeks ago and I learned from last time that one has to write very friendly letters and wait at least 2 weeks for a response. But this time she is not responding, nor to emails, and is hanging up on the phone each time I call. No explanation or reason why. 

It seems that these keys cannot be authorized by anyone else, and not even my title deeds and a solicitor can persuade the Lock shop guys. My tenants will eventually move out as they wait for ages to be let in and out by trusting neighbors and strangers every evening after work, and of course the next set of tenants will be equally stuck. Not something I need with my mortgage and cash flow trouble. 

*Questions:*

1- Is there any other way one get keys cut, no matter how circuitous or expensive?

2 - Legally what recourse do I have if there are loss of rental income earnings over this? She has cost me money before but I was just relieved to finally get that problem sorted for the sake of happy tenants and didnt pursue it. My understanding is that one cannot sue as its effectively like suing oneself as she represents our building ,as elected by us. Can I pursue her personally instead or is our relationship only owner - director bound and nothing else?


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## Dermot (13 Mar 2013)

It seems to be an awful situation. Are you aware of other owners who have had similar experiences.  Is this lady a director of the management co. You are entitled to a list of all the owners, addresses and contact details from the management within 10 days of requesting same for a very minimal fee under the Mud Act. Data Protection is no reason to refuse your request. You should download the mud act and read it or get the hard copy booklet on management co's from CRO for free.  You might be able to call an EGM if you have the support or there may be an AGM coming up soon.  You need to get a bit more pro active in the Management Co.


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## munchy (13 Mar 2013)

Dermot, thanks very much. Im starting at the beginning here and embarrassed that I dont know what law governs my rights! Just reading up on MUD there now there is a dispute resolution procedure in place now which may or may not be useful as she is our own elected person. 
The trouble with this building is that there are mostly absentee owners with more than 60% of it let out, and the few other owner-occupiers have been really complacent and no-one has been that keen to form a committee which is how we ended up with the a very small group who meet and a bully in charge. She is also a barrister although long retired so a small misdemeanor like my tenants (allegedly) leaving rubbish at the lift doors when the lifts werent fixed, resulted in me getting a 5 page letter which was almost unintelligible legalese. 

Is it allowable, after receiving the list of owners, to write to each of them to find out if they would like to see changes in their committee and more equitable way forward? She is likely to get really mad. Ill write to her as well of course. I want to get involved in a very active way next year but am concerned because I think the main secretary-director should have experience in running a building and the legal & financial paperwork too, and Im not sure we have the skills to do it ourselves. Good humour and friendliness wont be enough Im afraid.


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## ontour (13 Mar 2013)

Is there any 'logical' reason that the acting management agent is being difficult?  Are your management fees up to date?

If there is no logical reason, you should send a final request by registered post, if possible to each of the listed directors.  Have a look at duedil.com for the list of directors.  Note in the communication that if you have to engage legal representation to resolve the issue that you will be pursuing them for the cost.


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## Dermot (13 Mar 2013)

Security keys are always problematic in management co's and for good reason in a lot of cases as there are security issues at stake. If you and your tenants have had no prior issues in this regard there is no compelling issue why you should not be able to obtain a replacement key on payment of a fee. They cost in the region of 10-20 euro to cut depending on type of key. Some management co's charge an extra fee as well as the cost of cutting.  As an owner you should have a key as well. You can charge your tenants for the cost of the key. You might consider charging a refundable fee to next tenants as they will be less likely to forget to give them back.
If you could prove your case which might be more difficult than you think an if she is on the board of the Management Co it is more than likely that it will be the Management Co. You will need to take professional legal advice on this.  Take a more active role in the Management Co and attend the next AGM


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## Dermot (13 Mar 2013)

No matter about her qualifications she has to comply with the Mud Act etc. Is there a Managing agent employed by the Management Co or are the directors doing everything themselves. If they are doing everything are they registered with the PSRA. You can make contact with all or any of the other owners by any means you can. A word of warning you or a moderator might remove the general address and the qualification of the woman in your previous posts. It could be possible to identify who she is. Just in case


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## munchy (13 Mar 2013)

Thanks guys - I have just been onto the duedil.com website and it is very interesting. It says that she is the main director, and also the company secretary and there is only one other director listed. She has has absolute control. Ill request the names and contact details of the various owners and the other director too. 

What I found interesting is that her two roles and the other directors are listed as "fee or contract basis" Is that a standard clause? And that it was formed in 1995 but that was not when she took over which was some 4 years ago now. I wonder if in fact it is not self-managed, and if it is, its just that two owners are now running the original management company. She is also the director of a neighboring building which I find curious. 

Dermot - the issue is that there is only one place who are allowed to cut keys, and only the two of them permitted to authorise it sadly. She usually issues a letter to the tenants directly and they pop down to the shop themselves. I had to do this around 2 years ago and it was like pulling blood from a stone but she eventually did it. This time is different.

Edited to say that it is the managing agent who was removed 4 years ago now and these directors are now running the management company itself


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## lantus (13 Mar 2013)

munchy said:


> Thanks guys - I have just been onto the duedil.com website and it is very interesting. It says that she is the main director, and also the company secretary and there is only one other director listed. She has has absolute control. Ill request the names and contact details of the various owners and the other director too.
> 
> What I found interesting is that her two roles and the other directors are listed as "fee or contract basis" Is that a standard clause? And that it was formed in 1995 but that was not when she took over which was some 4 years ago now. I wonder if in fact it is not self-managed, and if it is, its just that two owners are now running the original management company. She is also the director of a neighboring building which I find curious.
> 
> ...


 
Directors generally have equal control and reach decision by consensus. In this case the job of running a building like this may be simply too much for this person. Generally a director of a management company cannot take any salary or money except for essential expenses. i.e. money they had to spend and claim back.

Has everything been done in acordance with he MUD act? Was your AGM documentation fully compliant with the MUD act requirements including full budget breakdowns. Was it voted for at the AGM with a 60% aproval rating by people who are entitled to vote? Request the AGM minutes and members list anyway.

I would try to contact the second director if you can. you can get a lot of nfo off CRO for little or no money. If they have been directors since April 2011 then they will need to be re-lected in 2014 under the MUD act and other directors can easily replace them at this stage which may be something you or another owner may want to consider. (You can appoint more than 2 directors, think team.)

I would try to communicate with this person to let them know that I'm happy to pay for the key and even a few quid extra just to oil the wheels if necessary!! Then I'd put everything in writing as well.

You can sue the directors personally but you need to prove negligence typically which can be tricky and it depends what for. If you lost rent due to the roof then that may of been claimable under the block insurance or your landlords insurance?

Obviously we only have one side and I've never met her but it sounds like the challenge of running and omc which is immense is not best suited to this person. It can be easy for people like this to gain director positions because as you rightly said no one else wants it. My concern without making any accusations is the managment of the company finances. Stressfull people who dont care about other people tend to have a very particular relationship and view to money and in a position where she has a great deal of power and responsibility this may not be a great combination.


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## munchy (13 Mar 2013)

Thank you lantus. A very interesting reply. So, yes, they would both be up for re-election soon. My difficulty is that I am not in Dublin now, and will likely make the UK my permanent home, and judging from the state of the building, the quality of tenants plus poor management, it may soon turn into a slum really.

We pay for our own keys and all I need off her is a letter authorizing it, with my tenants name on it so no need for her to be out of pocket. 

In the case of the roof leaking and causing damage to my apartment, when I had contacted her at that time, she yelled "Your tenants are LYING, Lying, lying" and of course I sent photographs and asked for inspections, etc etc. When I had lived there the problem had started so I knew it had come back, and not fixed properly by the previous maintence team. Back and forth and the insurance company wasnt contacted and a roofing person didnt get to inspect it for many weeks. The leak came back after that after some heavy rains and she refused any contact and kept hanging up on me. So, we sealed the room from the inside and repaint and de-mould it every few months. Ongoing nightmare. Every time she bumps into my letting agents she starts to shout for the gardaii even when he has a prospective tenant in tow. Ive spoken to neighbours previously who have similair stories to tell. 

I took earlier advice and have asked for the full list of all owners plus the other director. I am quite keen for all of us owners and tenants alike to perhaps form a closed online forum where we discuss all issues (not her, but rather building issues) in an open and equitable way. It would provide support for everyone, including her if she is overwhelmed, and we can also discuss our skill set more broadly and see who would be able to do what to help. It will make everything much more accountable and transparent. Ill set it up online and write to everyone to join in. What do you think?


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## lantus (13 Mar 2013)

munchy said:


> Thank you lantus. A very interesting reply. So, yes, they would both be up for re-election soon. My difficulty is that I am not in Dublin now, and will likely make the UK my permanent home, and judging from the state of the building, the quality of tenants plus poor management, it may soon turn into a slum really.
> 
> We pay for our own keys and all I need off her is a letter authorizing it, with my tenants name on it so no need for her to be out of pocket.
> 
> ...


 
You can set up a closed group on facebook which is free and invite only approved by the admin (you.)

The idea of co-operation sounds great but I'm not sure that you will be able to work with this person in the short to medium term in a manner that will be positive for anyone based on the examples you have given. I would work on the succession plan for these directors and based on your AGM daye you have 3 years after April 2011 until they need to stand for re-election by law.

Set up the group and see what you all prepared to do to get involved. Identify the future risks which in this case is no rent and a neglected building so loss of capital investment compared to the benefits which is a better run company.

That said I would still formally write on behalf of the group you form to highlight your concerns (without calling her mad) and seeing if in the short term you can work with her. Be prepared to indicate that unless changes are made then a change of directors will be iminent at the next AGM. (You need to mean this as well.)


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## mathepac (13 Mar 2013)

munchy said:


> ... judging from the state of the building, the quality of tenants plus poor management, it may soon turn into a slum really. ...


The story is a familiar one unfortunately, and I'm afraid inactive absentee landlords have only themselves to blame. The slide has started you'll need a lot of effort and agreement to halt it not to mind reverse it.


munchy said:


> ... I am quite keen for all of us owners and  tenants alike to perhaps form a closed online forum where we discuss all  issues (not her, but rather building issues) in an open and equitable  way. It would provide support for everyone, including her if she is  overwhelmed, and we can also discuss our skill set more broadly and see  who would be able to do what to help. It will make everything much more  accountable and transparent. Ill set it up online and write to everyone  to join in. What do you think?


I wish you luck. Personally I believe you may need to call an EGM, vote the unstable tyrant out (my word, based on your description of the bahaviours) and put in a reputable managing agent


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## Dermot (13 Mar 2013)

munchy. Email the ODCE and request a hard copy of the handbook "company law owner management companies" It is essential reading if you want to bring changes in your owner management company and it is not that difficult to read and very informative. You can also download if you prefer. I just prefer a hard copy.
http://www.cro.ie/ena/links.aspx Click on contacts at top and select email.


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## Vanessa (28 Mar 2013)

mathepac said:


> The story is a familiar one unfortunately, and I'm afraid inactive absentee landlords have only themselves to blame. The slide has started you'll need a lot of effort and agreement to halt it not to mind reverse it.
> I wish you luck. Personally I believe you may need to call an EGM, vote the unstable tyrant out (my word, based on your description of the bahaviours) and put in a reputable managing agent


 

I agree with you. An E.G.M. is called for. However like so many other apartment complexes unless the owners take a very active role in its management either by self management or by employing a good management agent (and they are out there) individuals will take it on themselves to be lord and master. Usually an owner/resident who has a grievance against investors. Of course many absentee landlords dont give a damm and dont recognise that owner residents regard the property as btheir home and expect it to be managed as such


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## fabna (5 May 2013)

*Very difficult management secretary and no keys to building Reply to Thread*

Munchy, I own an apartment in the same block as you I think, I would like to get in touch about the actions that you have planned to take. Can you you pls send me an email?


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