# Credited UK NI contributions as a teenager - why?



## NoRegretsCoyote (21 Feb 2020)

I lived and worked in the UK for a while about 15 years ago. Recently I applied for a record of my UK NI contributions and received it.

It shows a record of what I paid for two years in the mid-2000s in Class 1 contributions, and seems correct.

It also shows 52 _credited _contributions for three years in the mid-90s. This seems odd as I was a teenager and lived in Ireland at the time.

Why would they have done this? Is it normal? Does it entitle me to anything?


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## Saavy99 (21 Feb 2020)

You need 10 years paid contributions to get minimum pension. You need minimum of three years paid contributions to enable you to buy back up to 12 years which is a great deal, as well as pay voluntary contributions going forward. Do a search on here, you will find other threads on the subject. Did you work in Northern Ireland in the mid nineties?


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## Gervan (21 Feb 2020)

Perhaps there is a universal credit covering 3 years at university (whether people studied there or not) as students would have lost out compared to people who started work straight from school? 
Definitely look into buy back options.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (21 Feb 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> You need 10 years paid contributions to get minimum pension. You need minimum of three years paid contributions to enable you to buy back up to 12 years which is a great deal, as well as pay voluntary contributions going forward. Do a search on here, you will find other threads on the subject. Did you work in Northern Ireland in the mid nineties?



Never worked in NI, no.

Some HMRC guidance suggests three years residence or three years paid contributions is enough to make voluntary contributions.

I have three years residence but not three years contributions.

Voluntary contributions at £15 a week is actuarially an incredible deal if I'm eligible.


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## Saavy99 (21 Feb 2020)

If you are eligible to pay class 2 national insurance , it would be approx £12 a month, a much better deal!  You need to contact them in Newcastle to see if you are eligible.


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## Lisboa (21 Feb 2020)

From 1975, 16, 17 and 18 year olds were given credits if they stayed in full time education, approved training or apprenticeship to protect their state pension position. These credits were ended on 6 April 2010 because the reduction in the number of qualifying years required for a full basic State Pension at that time meant that they were no longer needed.


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## Hooverfish (21 Feb 2020)

Please be careful. Although I am still doggedly following up with HMRC and with the contributory pensions section in Sligo, and I have not got to the end of the line, it does seem that if you buy back UK years for which you have full PRSI contributions here, you are wasting your money, as you cannot have contributions in two states at the same time. And you can only buy back years since 2007 from the UK. So where were you working recently? You don't need to tell us, but don't buy back without thinking this through... I'm still hopeful that Sligo will be proved incorrect in this view, but I'm finding it hard to get my query escalated up!


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## NoRegretsCoyote (21 Feb 2020)

Hooverfish said:


> So where were you working recently? You don't need to tell us, but don't buy back without thinking this through... I'm still hopeful that Sligo will be proved incorrect in this view, but I'm finding it hard to get my query escalated up!



My circumstances are very odd and I'd rather not go into details. Suffice to say I'm a grey area.

I've written them a letter in Newcastle to see if I can buy back years.

My query was more about the credited contributions for teenage years which has been answered.

Am still not sure though - would they help with state pension eligibility if I can make voluntary contributions?


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## Saavy99 (21 Feb 2020)

Hooverfish said:


> Please be careful. Although I am still doggedly following up with HMRC and with the contributory pensions section in Sligo, and I have not got to the end of the line, it does seem that if you buy back UK years for which you have full PRSI contributions here, you are wasting your money, as you cannot have contributions in two states at the same time. And you can only buy back years since 2007 from the UK. So where were you working recently? You don't need to tell us, but don't buy back without thinking this through... I'm still hopeful that Sligo will be proved incorrect in this view, but I'm finding it hard to get my query escalated up!



How many years contributions have you in the UK?


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## Hooverfish (22 Feb 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> My circumstances are very odd and I'd rather not go into details. Suffice to say I'm a grey area.
> 
> I've written them a letter in Newcastle to see if I can buy back years.
> 
> ...



Looks like eligibility helped *only* if you didn't make PRSI contributions in Ireland for the same years on offer for buyback. I contributed for 12 years in the UK, 3 of which are like yours, and moved to Ireland in 1990, with full PRSI contributions here since then. However only 7 of the UK years are recorded although I have evidence of paying them. There are 400k people in the UK with contributions apparently lost by HMRC. Or possibly I may have accidentally paid Class 4 not Class 2 for those years (I was self employed)... I also have buyback available from UK, but only for years when I have full PRSI contributions in Ireland. So it appears for my situation buyback would be money down the drain. Except that I found documents on Social Welfare's own website that contradict Sligo's interpretation and say "overlapping" does not apply for pension contributions. I can't get them to explain this! We're on to letter number 5 at the moment, but still at first-level staff dealing with the query.


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## euroDilbert (22 Feb 2020)

Hooverfish said:


> Looks like eligibility helped *only* if you didn't make PRSI contributions in Ireland for the same years on offer for buyback. I contributed for 12 years in the UK, 3 of which are like yours, and moved to Ireland in 1990, with full PRSI contributions here since then. However only 7 of the UK years are recorded although I have evidence of paying them. There are 400k people in the UK with contributions apparently lost by HMRC. Or possibly I may have accidentally paid Class 4 not Class 2 for those years (I was self employed)... I also have buyback available from UK, but only for years when I have full PRSI contributions in Ireland. So it appears for my situation buyback would be money down the drain. Except that I found documents on Social Welfare's own website that contradict Sligo's interpretation and say "overlapping" does not apply for pension contributions. I can't get them to explain this! We're on to letter number 5 at the moment, but still at first-level staff dealing with the query.


I'm very interested to hear the result of your inquiries, as my circumstances are very similar. I have been in touch with the UK side a few times, but have not engaged with Sligo (yet !).


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## NoRegretsCoyote (22 Feb 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> How many years contributions have you in the UK?



See here.


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## Saavy99 (22 Feb 2020)

Sorry I was asking the other poster


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## Gervan (22 Feb 2020)

Hooverfish said:


> if you buy back UK years for which you have full PRSI contributions here, you are wasting your money, as you cannot have contributions in two states at the same time



There are several threads on here from people who are receiving pensions from both UK and Ireland. It obviously depends on your individual circumstances. I bought back 7 UK years, while an employee here, but at the more expensive Class 3 contributions, having been told I could only pay Class 2 if I had been in UK employment immediately before leaving. It was still worth it.


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## Saavy99 (22 Feb 2020)

Hooverfish said:


> Looks like eligibility helped *only* if you didn't make PRSI contributions in Ireland for the same years on offer for buyback.



That's just not true. I was able to buy back 12 UK years even though  I was paying full PRSI in Ireland at the same time. I know several others who did likewise.

It sounds like you have some issue with class 4 contributions which I am not familiar with. You should be able to buy back three years to get at least the minimum UK state pension.  Read the following link and fill the form at the end and send it to them.





__





						Social Security abroad: NI38
					

Use this guidance and form to find out about paying National Insurance contributions to the UK and getting benefits when abroad.




					www.gov.uk
				




If you need more information, the pension advisory service have an online chat service that should be able to help you.  








						Voluntary National Insurance contributions and the State Pension | MoneyHelper
					

Voluntary National Insurance contributions can help make sure you have enough qualifying years to get the full State Pension. Find out more here.




					www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk
				




You really don't need to go through Sligo at all as all the Information you need is on the HMRC website.


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## Saavy99 (22 Feb 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> See here.




The links I posted to Hooverfish will be helpful to you. The UK pension advisory service online  chat service is excellent.


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## Hooverfish (23 Feb 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> That's just not true. I was able to buy back 12 UK years even though  I was paying full PRSI in Ireland at the same time. I know several others who did likewise.
> 
> It sounds like you have some issue with class 4 contributions which I am not familiar with. You should be able to buy back three years to get at least the minimum UK state pension.  Read the following link and fill the form at the end and send it to them.
> 
> ...



Saavy99, obviously you don't have to answer this, but are you actually now receiving a contributory state pension partially from Ireland, partially from the UK, that includes bought back years from the UK when in fact you actually were employed and paid your PRSI for those same years in Ireland?

Because you can indeed buy back the years - that's not the problem, but then you may find your Irish pension is reduced on payment. When you retire (actually you should apply 6 months before you hit retirement age), the UK first sends its information to Ireland as this is where you are now resident, and Ireland use this to decide what amount they will pay you. So if your record shows you were paying in recent years in the UK, according to the first level enquiries I have been making, you then don't get those years from Ireland. I think Sligo are wrong, but I can't get anything in writing to this effect yet, so I don't know whether to buy back...


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## Saavy99 (23 Feb 2020)

Hooverfish said:


> Saavy99, obviously you don't have to answer this, but are you actually now receiving a contributory state pension partially from Ireland, partially from the UK, that includes bought back years from the UK when in fact you actually were employed and paid your PRSI for those same years in Ireland?


Not me but my partner is and getting two full state pensions, one from uk and one from Ireland, started work in Ireland in 1995 right up until retirement age. Worked in UK years before that and carried on paying voluntary uk class two contributions on return to Ireland right up until retirement. 
When I retire I will be in same position (unless brexit puts a spanner in it).


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## Saavy99 (23 Feb 2020)

Hooverfish said:


> Because you can indeed buy back the years - that's not the problem, but then you may find your Irish pension is reduced on payment. When you retire (actually you should apply 6 months before you hit retirement age), the UK first sends its information to Ireland as this is where you are now resident, and Ireland use this to decide what amount they will pay you. So if your record shows you were paying in recent years in the UK, according to the first level enquiries I have been making, you then don't get those years from Ireland. I think Sligo are wrong, but I can't get anything in writing to this effect yet, so I don't know whether to buy back...
> 
> As long as you have sufficient contributions in both countries you will get both state pensions. Many people on their return from UK particularly in years gone by, were not aware they could have continued on paying voluntary national insurance contributions to the UK to avail of full UK state pension. So when they retired or retire they simple  apply to Sligo for their pension. Sometimes they may have enough contributions to get full Irish state pension and maybe enough contributions made in UK to get partial UK pension. If they don't have enough contributions made in Ireland for full Irish state pension they get what is known as prorata pension, contributions from both countries would be added together.
> 
> ...


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## Hooverfish (23 Feb 2020)

Thanks for explaining Saavy99. Are there any other people on the forum who have managed to do this?


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## ATC110 (23 Feb 2020)

Hooverfish said:


> Thanks for explaining Saavy99. Are there any other people on the forum who have managed to do this?


I'm in a similar position to Saavy99 in that I'm paying compulsory PRSI and voluntary NI simultaneously. There is an EU Directive that you cannot contribute to more than one member state's pension scheme simultaneously however HMRC required proof that I _was _employed and paying PRSI in Ireland before they would allow me to buy back years and make ongoing annual voluntary contributions! I contacted the Irish DSP and asked the hypothetical question that if the above-mentioned situation was reversed and I was to relocate to the UK and pay compulsory NI contributions could I make ongoing voluntary PRSI contributions to maintain my contribution record and they confirmed that is not permitted under EU law; same EU directive but implemented by Ireland and reverse implemented by the UK!
Several people on this forum are receiving two full state pensions despite it being technically impossible but the UK leaving the EU, for the purpose of contributing to both schemes, will mean that receiving two full state pensions will be permitted as only one will be from an EU member state.


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## Saavy99 (23 Feb 2020)

ATC110    
That's good to know about Britains exit and future state pension payments, though I did read of proposals in UK to bring in means testing for state pension in future years


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## ATC110 (23 Feb 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> ATC110
> That's good to know about Britains exit and future state pension payments, though I did read of proposals in UK to bring in means testing for state pension in future years


I think all European pensions will be subject to a means test in the future due to the taxpayer to pensioner ratio. 
I'm slightly pensive each year when I'm making the voluntary contribution wondering will I ever see the benefit of it; I treat it as a calculated risk/gamble.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (23 Feb 2020)

ATC110 said:


> I think all European pensions will be subject to a means test in the future due to the taxpayer to pensioner ratio.
> I'm slightly pensive each year when I'm making the voluntary contribution wondering will I ever see the benefit of it; I treat it as a calculated risk/gamble.



Nothing is certain but at the moment a £15 weekly contribution will see you eligible for a £130 a week state pension.

Yes there is risk, but the return is phenomenal.


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## Hooverfish (24 Feb 2020)

So I think what we are saying is, officially receiving a pension from bought back years, if they are the same years that you have compulsory contributions in the other state is "banned", but in practice buying back UK years works for Irish residents, because Ireland and the UK have been implementing the same directive differently. However, no-one knows what will happen in the future, so it's another risk-reward gamble...?


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## Sadim (24 Feb 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Nothing is certain but at the moment a £15 weekly contribution will see you eligible for a £130 a week state pension.
> 
> Yes there is risk, but the return is phenomenal.


If you manage to qualify for the cheaper Class 2 rate (£3/week) it is an even more astounding payback!


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## Hooverfish (24 Feb 2020)

Also (and I won't attempt to paraphrase any of it), I suspect the answer regarding risks to future pensions is contained in the convention on social security signed during the Brexit negotiations between Ireland and the UK. There are long sections on voluntary and overlapping contributions.


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## ATC110 (24 Feb 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Nothing is certain but at the moment a £15 weekly contribution will see you eligible for a £130 a week state pension.



Current UK flat rate pension is £168.60 https://www.gov.uk/new-state-pension/what-youll-get


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## ATC110 (24 Feb 2020)

Hooverfish said:


> Also (and I won't attempt to paraphrase any of it), I suspect the answer regarding risks to future pensions is contained in the convention on social security signed during the Brexit negotiations between Ireland and the UK. There are long sections on voluntary and overlapping contributions.


Without reading the whole document, does it make specific reference to the topic being discussed here?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (25 Feb 2020)

ATC110 said:


> Without reading the whole document, does it make specific reference to the topic being discussed here?



Yes.

I had a look and found it very hard to understand. You will struggle unless you know the entitlement rules quite well.


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## Saavy99 (25 Feb 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Yes.
> 
> I had a look and found it very hard to understand. You will struggle unless you know the entitlement rules quite well.



There is reference to it in page 14 but unless you familiar with the speak, its very difficult to  to understand.


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## Hooverfish (25 Feb 2020)

I think this is why I can't get a clear answer from Sligo. Nobody who isn't both an expert on pension entitlements and international treaties understands what that document means... designed to obfuscate, and so provide freedom of action for both sides in the future, by very smart civil servants and diplomats possibly?


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## ATC110 (25 Feb 2020)

Considering there are current recipients of both pensions, I think it's worth taking a punt on. My total voluntary contribution will be circa £3500 for a potential £168.60 per week at today's rate; I can't afford to lose my contribution but it's not life-changing either if I don't ultimately see any benefit from it.


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## euroDilbert (26 Feb 2020)

It appears to me, based on the above, that even if you only get the UK pension for one extra year (i.e. from age 65 to 66) then for many people this would be a reasonable return on the voluntary contributions.


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## ATC110 (26 Feb 2020)

euroDilbert said:


> It appears to me, based on the above, that even if you only get the UK pension for one extra year (i.e. from age 65 to 66) then for many people this would be a reasonable return on the voluntary contributions.


That's a good point. My UK retirement age is 67 and in Ireland is 68 so the worst case scenario under current rules I would get one year of a UK pension


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## Sadim (26 Feb 2020)

ATC110 said:


> I think all European pensions will be subject to a means test in the future due to the taxpayer to pensioner ratio.
> I'm slightly pensive each year when I'm making the voluntary contribution wondering will I ever see the benefit of it; I treat it as a calculated risk/gamble.



Did you ever get a State Pension Forecast from the Dept of Work & Pensions (DWP) in Wolverhampton? Like you, I have paid some voluntary contributions (7 historic years I think) and they definitely overlap with the period I was working back here in Ireland. My updated Forecast after paying the VCs showed a correctly uplifted UK state pension entitlement so, I am relying on that Forecast.

It is curious too, in all the forms I filled for the DWP and HMRC I was never asked for my PRSI number! You would have thought if they wanted to prevent overlapping surely they would need some unique reference for you like your NI and PRSI numbers?


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## ATC110 (26 Feb 2020)

Sadim said:


> Did you ever get a State Pension Forecast from the Dept of Work & Pensions (DWP) in Wolverhampton?



Yes and can view it in realtime every time I log on to the Government Gateway.



Sadim said:


> It is curious too, in all the forms I filled for the DWP and HMRC I was never asked for my PRSI number! You would have thought if they wanted to prevent overlapping surely they would need some unique reference for you like your NI and PRSI numbers?



HMRC required a copy of a Revenue Notice of Assessment in order for me to make voluntary contributions


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## Sadim (26 Feb 2020)

ATC110 said:


> Yes and can view it in realtime every time I log on to the Government Gateway.
> 
> 
> 
> HMRC required a copy of a Revenue Notice of Assessment in order for me to make voluntary contributions


Strange. Like I said I paid VCs for 7 additional qualifying years and I was asked for nothing. They took and allocated my payment. I got an updated State Pension Statement later and it showed me I had 15 qualifying years now (originally had 8)


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## Sadim (26 Feb 2020)

ATC110 said:


> Yes and can view it in realtime every time I log on to the Government Gateway.
> 
> 
> 
> HMRC required a copy of a Revenue Notice of Assessment in order for me to make voluntary contributions


Also, I tried that Government Gateway and could not get logged in. Kept asking me for a UK address and when I entered my last UK address it just would not accept it. It led me to assume you had to be a British resident currently to access the system?


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## Saavy99 (26 Feb 2020)

Sadim said:


> It led me to assume you had to be a British resident currently to access the system?



That's correct.


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## ATC110 (27 Feb 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> That's correct.


I registered with an ROI address


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## Saavy99 (27 Feb 2020)

ATC110 said:


> I registered with an ROI address



I did as well, it just didn't work. As far as I could see you must live in the UK.


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## Saavy99 (27 Feb 2020)

Can anyone here give a understanding of the paragraphs on page 14 of the above directive  about paying the voluntary contributions towards uk state pension.


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## raith rover (27 Feb 2020)

I am a UK citizen resident in the ROI. I can access the UK Government Gateway with my Irish address though I did need to furnish my UK passport number to access the system.
My wife is an Irish citizen resident at the same address. She cannot access the UK Gateway even though she has over 30 years of National Insurance contributions into the UK system. Citizenship may be the difference.
Hope this helps.


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## Sadim (27 Feb 2020)

raith rover said:


> I am a UK citizen resident in the ROI. I can access the UK Government Gateway with my Irish address though I did need to furnish my UK passport number to access the system.
> My wife is an Irish citizen resident at the same address. She cannot access the UK Gateway even though she has over 30 years of National Insurance contributions into the UK system. Citizenship may be the difference.
> Hope this helps.


I thought it was more residence was the issue? I have tried a number of times with an Irish address and my old Scottish address (a bit up the road from you Kirkcaldy man! It was Ellon)


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## Sadim (27 Feb 2020)

No, I could not understand it. It is written in gibberish. Anyway, all I am aware of is that there were an estimated 130,000 people resident in Ireland in receipt of both a UK and an Irish state pension. I still am intrigued on the issue of overlapping contribution history, contributions in both systems for the same tax year.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (27 May 2020)

Good news. I got a letter from HMRC saying I am entitled to pay backdated contributions, and to do so going forward. It is £780 a year for voluntary Class 3 which is excellent value.

Before I do this I want to make sure it won't interfere with my future contributory state pension in Ireland. If at all possible I want to claim both pensions when I hit the appropriate age

Should I write a letter to Sligo outlining my circumstances? Will they give me a clear answer? I don't want to pay the guts of €10,000 backdated and €1000 a year going forward for it to be worthless.


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## ATC110 (27 May 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Good news. I got a letter from HMRC saying I am entitled to pay backdated contributions, and to do so going forward.* It is £780 a year for voluntary Class 3 which is excellent value.*
> 
> Before I do this I want to make sure it won't interfere with my future contributory state pension in Ireland. If at all possible I want to claim both pensions when I hit the appropriate age
> 
> *Should I write a letter to Sligo outlining my circumstances? Will they give me a clear answer? *I don't want to pay the guts of €10,000 backdated and €1000 a year going forward for it to be worthless.



Are you employed or self-employed in ROI now? You may be eligible to pay the cheaper Class 2 voluntary NICs.

I doubt you'll get confirmation to go ahead as it's technically against EU law to be simultaneously insured in two or more member states and that's what the DEASP will probably tell you. 
As I've previously mentioned, HMRC seem to be applying EU law in reverse as they require proof that you are employed/self-employed in another member state!


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## NoRegretsCoyote (27 May 2020)

ATC110 said:


> Are you employed or self-employed in ROI now? You may be eligible to pay the cheaper Class 2 voluntary NICs.



Class 3 is the only thing I would have been eligible for.




ATC110 said:


> I doubt you'll get confirmation to go ahead as it's technically against EU law to be simultaneously insured in two or more member states and that's what the DEASP will probably tell you.
> As I've previously mentioned, HMRC seem to be applying EU law in reverse as they require proof that you are employed/self-employed in another member state!



I am going to go through the bilateral agreement in detail and see if they will clarify certain points rather than give a blanket assurance.


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## Hooverfish (28 May 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Good news. I got a letter from HMRC saying I am entitled to pay backdated contributions, and to do so going forward. It is £780 a year for voluntary Class 3 which is excellent value.
> 
> Before I do this I want to make sure it won't interfere with my future contributory state pension in Ireland. If at all possible I want to claim both pensions when I hit the appropriate age
> 
> Should I write a letter to Sligo outlining my circumstances? Will they give me a clear answer? I don't want to pay the guts of €10,000 backdated and €1000 a year going forward for it to be worthless.



I tried, and just got the EU law quoted back at me and I did write again to Sligo and request the query be escalated, quoting the various documents referenced in this thread. In the end, as I got permission to make cheaper UK class 2 contributions after providing a history of my movements, employments and self-employment during my career, I bought back 7 years, which represent the years from late 80s/early 90s that the UK have lost my contributions for. Even though they have the buyback years listed as the 2007 onwards years. I feel if anyone objects at any point in the future, I can justify it either way to either side. But it's still "fingers crossed" because it did not prove possible to get an exhaustive answer despite best efforts. It's just that my risk in terms of money paid is smaller, because of the Class 2 contributions. So I'd suggest filling in their form and giving honest answers when you were where /working how, and see if they will let you do Class 2 buy back. I don't think those rules entirely depend on self-employment for your full career.


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## Sadim (28 May 2020)

No conclusion on this issue so? I think there is an element of 'a blind eye' being thrown at this by the British in which case, when the time comes, I will apply to the DWP in Wolverhampton directly and not bother DEASP Sligo with it. Besides, by then the UK will be outside the EU so, Directive anomalies like what has been highlighted here will not matter. 

Class 3 contributions have an attractive payback but Class 2 is icing on the cake type stuff. Sure, universally all state pension systems are unsustainable and there will be changes just like with TCA introduced in Ireland in January this year so, there is no certainty. However, I think at the Class 2 rate it is well worth a punt.


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## Lisboa (17 Jun 2020)

ATC110 said:


> I doubt you'll get confirmation to go ahead as it's technically against EU law to be simultaneously insured in two or more member states and that's what the DEASP will probably tell you.



You can't legally be compulsorily insured in two member states but you can legally be compulsorily insured in one state and voluntarily contribute in another.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (17 Jun 2020)

Lisboa said:


> You can't legally be compulsorily insured in two member states but you can legally be compulsorily insured in one state and voluntarily contribute in another.



But can you then receive two state pensions?

I looked closely at the bilateral agreement and the whole implication is that you can't, but it never says it categorically.


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## Sadim (17 Jun 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> But can you then receive two state pensions?
> 
> I looked closely at the bilateral agreement and the whole implication is that you can't, but it never says it categorically.



This is one of the great mysteries. Yes I understand what Lisboa has stated above that current directives state you cannot claim two state pensions for overlapping social security periods but it appears the UK has been ignoring this for years, and besides, they have left the EU and the EU directives cease to apply to them after 31st December this year. 

My understanding is there is a section in the state pension claim form where you have to declare you have worked in the UK and give your National Insurance number. This suggests there is some background validation going on between our DEASP and the DWP in the UK. 

I read somewhere before that there are an estimated 130,000 in receipt of both an Irish and a UK state pension in this country. I do not know the provenance of that estimate but the accumulation of state pension rights in both jurisdictions, Ireland and the UK, seems to be more opaque than the directives suggest.


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## Sadim (17 Jun 2020)

Lisboa said:


> You can't legally be compulsorily insured in two member states but you can legally be compulsorily insured in one state and voluntarily contribute in another.


I wonder is that the distinction?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (17 Jun 2020)

Sadim said:


> My understanding is there is a section in the state pension claim form where you have to declare you have worked in the UK and give your National Insurance number. This suggests there is some background validation going on between our DEASP and the DWP in the UK.



I guess this makes sense.

There is probably something like 5%-15% of the Irish workforce who has worked in the UK at some point. The other way round it's more like 1%. Even absolute numbers will be lower too. More Irish work for a while in UK and move home than vice versa.

Much more gain to DEASP from chasing down people with UK contributions than the other way round.

The SPC1 form obliges you to provide details of all employment outside Ireland, ever, including social security number in those countries. My suspicion is that many people forget after many years. If DEASP has automated checking with any other jurisdiction it would be the UK.


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## Sadim (17 Jun 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I guess this makes sense.
> 
> There is probably something like 5%-15% of the Irish workforce who has worked in the UK at some point. The other way round it's more like 1%. Even absolute numbers will be lower too. More Irish work for a while in UK and move home than vice versa.
> 
> ...



I fully agree. Indeed I would imagine in terms of respective Revenue relationship for example there are plenty of people in Dublin Castle on first name terms with their counterparts in HMRC Newcastle so, I imagine there is the same dynamic between the DEASP and the DWP. That said, Lisboa's point above on the distinction between compulsory and voluntary social insurance may be at the heart of resolving the apparent inconsistency with the Directive?


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## Lisboa (17 Jun 2020)

Sadim said:


> Yes I understand what Lisboa has stated above that current directives state you cannot claim two state pensions for overlapping social security periods



Did I say that?! Apologies, that's not what I meant to imply.

I've read the legislation and personally I'm convinced that you CAN make a claim for both state pensions. 

My understanding - which is to be very lightly taken - is that the Overlapping rules don't seem to apply to old-age pensions.


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## Sadim (17 Jun 2020)

Lisboa said:


> Did I say that?! Apologies, that's not what I meant to imply.
> 
> I've read the legislation and personally I'm convinced that you CAN make a claim for both state pensions.
> 
> My understanding - which is to be very lightly taken - is that the Overlapping rules don't seem to apply to old-age pensions.



Just shows you, somebody (me!) will always take it up the wrong way! Like you, I am convinced you can receive both state pensions simultaneously on the basis that people are doing that right now. Your distinction between compulsory and voluntary insurance sounds rational. The restriction on overlapping would appear to refer to compulsory social insurance, you cannot be subject to PRSI and NI for overlapping periods. Again, it is not spelt out in the directive so that is conjecture on my part. It would be helpful if the DEASP could clarify this.

All I know is that I have 8 qualifying years on my UK NI record and paid VCs for 7 further years bringing me to 15 in total. I am expecting a state pension from Her Majesty for £67.12pw when I get to 67 years of age! And, that does not take account of the future years open to me to bump that up.


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## Hooverfish (17 Jun 2020)

Lisboa said:


> My understanding - which is to be very lightly taken - is that the Overlapping rules don't seem to apply to old-age pensions.



That is *exactly* what it says (see beginning of the thread, I linked the relevant EU document, page 15) however when I asked Sligo about it they just reverted to stating that you can't overlap...


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## NoRegretsCoyote (18 Jun 2020)

Here is the relevant of the bilateral agreement linked up the thread. And my interpretation of it. Views welcome! @Lisboa @Hooverfish @Sadim 



> _ARTICLE 12
> Voluntary insurance or optional continued insurance (1) Articles 9 to 11 shall not apply to voluntary insurance or to optional continued insurance._



Articles 9-11 preceding make clear the general principle that legislation of _only _UK or Ireland should apply, even to people employed or self employed in both jurisdictions. But they don't apply to voluntary or optional continued insurance, which comes next.



> _(2) Subject to paragraph (4), where a person is subject to compulsory insurance in one Party by virtue of the legislation of that Party, they shall not be subject to a voluntary or optional continued insurance scheme in the other Party._



This is not clear to me. Does "subject to paragraph (4)" mean that provisions of paragraph (4) supercede those of paragraph (2)?Does it mean if I pay Class A PRSI in Ireland I cannot make continuing voluntary insurance in the UK? What does being "subject to voluntary......insurance" mean? How can you be _subject _to something that is voluntary?



> _(3) If paragraph (2) does not apply and a person has, for the purpose of entitlement to a benefit, a choice between several voluntary or optional continued insurance schemes, they shall be entitled to pay contributions only under the legislation of one Party according to their choice._



Presumably this applies to someone who has worked in Ireland and UK, but no longer works and/or resides in either. They can only make voluntary social insurance contributions in either Ireland or the UK, but not both.



> _(4) In respect of pensions, a person may join the voluntary or optional continued insurance scheme of a Party, even if they are compulsorily subject to the legislation of the other Party, provided that they have been previously subject to the legislation of
> the former Party because or as a consequence of an activity as an employed or selfemployed person _



This implies that someone paying Class A PRSI in Ireland ("compulsorily subject to the legislation of the other Party") may pay optional NI contributions provided they have been employed in the UK ("previously subject to the legislation of the former Party because or as a consequence of an activity as an employed or selfemployed person "). Does this supercede what is set out in Paragraph 2 above?



> _and if such overlapping is explicitly or implicitly allowed under the legislation of the former Party._



In my case, I would assume that such overlapping _is _allowed, given that DWP are making me the offer of paying voluntary contributions.


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## ATC110 (18 Jun 2020)

Sadim said:


> It would be helpful if the DEASP could clarify this.



I suspect they don't know themselves. Anytime I manage to get through after being redirected, hung up on or put on hold the concise reply I get is usually "I would imagine" or "We don't know" before being cut off again


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## Sadim (24 Jun 2020)

ATC110 said:


> I suspect they don't know themselves. Anytime I manage to get through after being redirected, hung up on or put on hold the concise reply I get is usually "I would imagine" or "We don't know" before being cut off again


That sounds extraordinary and it all seems a bit opaque to me.


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## noreen06 (22 Feb 2021)

Does anyone know can I make voluntary 2 contributions towards uk state pension while paying compulsory prsi in ireland . Know some that done this and currently claiming uk state and irish state  pension. I bought back 15 voluntary uk years but wonder now was it money down the drain as I was paying compulsory irish prsi during this time


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## time to plan (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> Also, I tried that Government Gateway and could not get logged in. Kept asking me for a UK address and when I entered my last UK address it just would not accept it. It led me to assume you had to be a British resident currently to access the system?


I put in my last UK address from 6 years ago and it worked fine (I am British as it happens and first moved to Ireland 6 years ago but not sure if that matters, although I did put my UK passport number in and they were asking credit file questions about previous addresses).  It looks like I need to make 8 years voluntary contributions, hopefully Class 2, for a full UK state pension. Then also qualify for an Irish state pension.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (22 Feb 2021)

noreen06 said:


> Does anyone know can I make voluntary 2 contributions towards uk state pension while paying compulsory prsi in ireland .


You certainly cannot make voluntary contributions in both UK and Ireland.

But it seems okay to be compulsory in one and voluntary in the other.


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## Sadim (22 Feb 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> You certainly cannot make voluntary contributions in both UK and Ireland.
> 
> But it seems okay to be compulsory in one and voluntary in the other.


I think you cannot be compulsory insured in both jurisdictions simultaneously, you can do voluntary contributions in the UK while being compulsory insured in Ireland..... at least, that is my understanding


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## Sadim (22 Feb 2021)

time to plan said:


> I put in my last UK address from 6 years ago and it worked fine (I am British as it happens and first moved to Ireland 6 years ago but not sure if that matters, although I did put my UK passport number in and they were asking credit file questions about previous addresses).  It looks like I need to make 8 years voluntary contributions, hopefully Class 2, for a full UK state pension. Then also qualify for an Irish state pension.


I think it is more an issue you need to be resident in the UK, nationality does not have anything to do with it.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> I think you cannot be compulsory insured in both jurisdictions simultaneously, you can do voluntary contributions in the UK while being compulsory insured in Ireland..... at least, that is my understanding


Yes. Mine too.


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## ATC110 (22 Feb 2021)

Despite it being against EU law to be simultaneously insured in two member states, HMRC (pre-Brexit) required proof that I was employed in another member state before allowing me to make voluntary contributions!

Apparently the pre-Brexit arrangement of any contributions made in the UK or Ireland being counted to make up any gaps in whichever contributory state pension will still apply.

However, for those with enough contributions to qualify for full state pensions from both jurisdictions, it might be more advisable to make two separate applications at pension age to minimise the chances of there being any issues


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## Sadim (22 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> Despite it being against EU law to be simultaneously insured in two member states, HMRC (pre-Brexit) required proof that I was employed in another member state before allowing me to make voluntary contributions!
> 
> Apparently the pre-Brexit arrangement of any contributions made in the UK or Ireland being counted to make up any gaps in whichever contributory state pension will still apply.
> 
> However, for those with enough contributions to qualify for full state pensions from both jurisdictions, it might be more advisable to make two separate applications at pension age to minimise the chances of there being any issues



My understanding is the DSP handles the application for the UK state pension when you apply for the Irish state pension. In fairness, they are genuinely trying to get you the best monetary outcome. That said, the UK state retirement date will be one year earlier than the Irish one in a few years time (assuming the Irish state goes ahead with its plan to raise retirement age to 68) so, by default you will be submitting the UK claim into the DWP in Wolverhampton 1 year earlier than the Irish claim


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## Sadim (22 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> Despite it being against EU law to be simultaneously insured in two member states, HMRC (pre-Brexit) required proof that I was employed in another member state before allowing me to make voluntary contributions!
> 
> Apparently the pre-Brexit arrangement of any contributions made in the UK or Ireland being counted to make up any gaps in whichever contributory state pension will still apply.
> 
> However, for those with enough contributions to qualify for full state pensions from both jurisdictions, it might be more advisable to make two separate applications at pension age to minimise the chances of there being any issues



You do not necessarily have to be employed abroad (Ireland) to be eligible for UK voluntary contributions but if you are employed in Ireland you should be eligible for the cheaper Class 2 rate (c.£160), rather than the Class 3 rate (c.£800). That is why they enquire about your work status. Even if you were not working you should be eligible to pay the Class 3 contribution.... subject to other T&Cs


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## ATC110 (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> My understanding is the DSP handles the application for the UK state pension when you apply for the Irish state pension. In fairness, they are genuinely trying to get you the best monetary outcome. That said, the UK state retirement date will be one year earlier than the Irish one in a few years time (assuming the Irish state goes ahead with its plan to raise retirement age to 68) so, by default you will be submitting the UK claim into the DWP in Wolverhampton 1 year earlier than the Irish claim


That’s correct but it’s surprising the DEASP don’t query the reason there’s two full entitlements.

That one year earlier claim age is an important consideration. It would mean two separate claim dates in the event of a query and, in the event of only one pension payment then being allowed, the HMRC voluntary contributions paid would be more than recouped in that first year alone.


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## ATC110 (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> You do not necessarily have to be employed abroad (Ireland) to be eligible for UK voluntary contributions but if you are employed in Ireland you should be eligible for the cheaper Class 2 rate (c.£160), rather than the Class 3 rate (c.£800). That is why they enquire about your work status. Even if you were not working you should be eligible to pay the Class 3 contribution.... subject to other T&Cs


The UK government has been intending to abolish the cheaper Class 2 rate for years but hasn’t done so yet..Even when it eventually is abolished, it’ll still be worth paying the Class 3 rate


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## Sadim (22 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> That’s correct but it’s surprising the DEASP don’t query the reason there’s two full entitlements.
> 
> That one year earlier claim age is an important consideration. It would mean two separate claim dates in the event of a query and, in the event of only one pension payment then being allowed, the HMRC voluntary contributions paid would be more than recouped in that first year alone.



True, my preference would be to deal with the Irish and UK authorities separately but I think in my case, the UK pension will kick in one year earlier (67) than the Irish one (68) so, I will be submitting two separate claims. That said, from what I understand the DSP in Sligo are really batting for you to get the best out of both systems and seem to know their counterparts in Wolverhampton on first name terms.

I am happily paying VCs into the UK system still on the assumption I will get two state pensions.


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## ATC110 (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> True, my preference would be to deal with the Irish and UK authorities separately but I think in my case, the UK pension will kick in one year earlier (67) than the Irish one (68) so, I will be submitting two separate claims. That said, from what I understand the DSP in Sligo are really batting for you to get the best out of both systems and seem to know their counterparts in Wolverhampton on first name terms.
> 
> I am happily paying VCs into the UK system still on the assumption I will get two state pensions.


I agree entirely yet every time I make the annual payment by EFT it gives me pause will I ever see the benefit..
I try not to think too much about the prospect of two full state pensions in case I’m disappointed...


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## Sadim (22 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> I agree entirely yet every time I make the annual payment by EFT it gives me pause will I ever see the benefit..
> I try not to think too much about the prospect of two full state pensions in case I’m disappointed...


You'd want to be fairly aggressive with the VCs to achieve two full state pensions! I accept I am going to miss 5/40ths of my Irish state pension with my absence in the UK but that same absence will also give me the scope to gain hopefully 25/35ths of the UK  state pension. Just taking those figures in out line that should be €217.25 + £125.15pw..... €355pw total....... better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!!


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## time to plan (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> I think it is more an issue you need to be resident in the UK, nationality does not have anything to do with it.


I got my government gateway ID last week but haven't been resident in UK for 6 years. The fact I have a UK passport helped identify me to get a government gateway ID.


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## ATC110 (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> You'd want to be fairly aggressive with the VCs to achieve two full state pensions! I accept I am going to miss 5/40ths of my Irish state pension with my absence in the UK but that same absence will also give me the scope to gain hopefully 25/35ths of the UK  state pension. Just taking those figures in out line that should be €217.25 + £125.15pw..... €355pw total....... better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick!!


I’m on course for 35/35 in the UK and 40/40 under the new TCA in Ireland


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## Sadim (22 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> I’m on course for 35/35 in the UK and 40/40 under the new TCA in Ireland



Fair play to you, my aims are a tad more modest!


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## Sadim (22 Feb 2021)

time to plan said:


> I got my government gateway ID last week but haven't been resident in UK for 6 years. The fact I have a UK passport helped identify me to get a government gateway ID.



It was the address that they refused on me. I used my old address in Scotland but the system is probably able to identify I do not live there anymore... I do not know. Either way I don't get the Gateway ID!


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## ATC110 (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> Fair play to you, my aims are a tad more modest!


Could you not buy back more years in the UK?


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## time to plan (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> It was the address that they refused on me. I used my old address in Scotland but the system is probably able to identify I do not live there anymore... I do not know. Either way I don't get the Gateway ID!


Maybe it's about how old the address is. Now I think about it, I did keep my UK drivers licence longer than I strictly should have and that had my old address. Have swapped it for Irish licence now.


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## Sadim (22 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> Could you not buy back more years in the UK?



Now that I think about it:
- Started with 8 qualifying years
- Paid for 7 further years by VC up to 2012/13
- Have option for further 7 up 2019/20
- Should have options on another 11 years to retirement in May 2031

That makes 33 years max possible worth £155.63pw at current rates. I think that is as good as I can do


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## ATC110 (22 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> Now that I think about it:
> - Started with 8 qualifying years
> - Paid for 7 further years by VC up to 2012/13
> - Have option for further 7 up 2019/20
> ...


Go for it


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## Sadim (23 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> Go for it



My view on it ATC is if you did a comparison on funding a pension annuity (park the annual increases in the UK state pension under the "triple lock") you would need a fund of something like £210-220k at retirement to pay for an annuity giving you £8,093pa? Here, taking up all the VC options with the UK system it is likely to cost something less than £3k. 

Sure, like all state pension systems the rules can change with legislation..... and I do not see that "triple lock" system of annual increases surviving long.... but you can secure state pension rights progressively into the future and when they change the rules, you have what you have and be done with it. I cannot foresee a situation where they could retrospectively eliminate all your entitlements.


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## ATC110 (23 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> My view on it ATC is if you did a comparison on funding a pension annuity (park the annual increases in the UK state pension under the "triple lock") you would need a fund of something like £210-220k at retirement to pay for an annuity giving you £8,093pa? Here, taking up all the VC options with the UK system it is likely to cost something less than £3k.
> 
> Sure, like all state pension systems the rules can change with legislation..... and I do not see that "triple lock" system of annual increases surviving long.... but you can secure state pension rights progressively into the future and when they change the rules, you have what you have and be done with it. I cannot foresee a situation where they could retrospectively eliminate all your entitlements.


Yes, I know-it’s a fantastic return!
Are you going to buy back those extra years?


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## Sadim (23 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> Yes, I know-it’s a fantastic return!
> Are you going to buy back those extra years?


Thats the plan anyway. I took comfort with the CTA (Common Travel Area) being formalised in Feb19 and that we would continue to have access to the system. Remember, it is two-way traffic. The CTA also allows British to claim an Irish state pension depending on their PRSI record too.

Next bit of money I free up I'll pay for those remaining 7 historic years, that should get me to £100.57pw


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## NoRegretsCoyote (23 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> Next bit of money I free up I'll pay for those remaining 7 historic years, that should get me to £100.57pw


Watch out for a deadline on this.

I am paying Class 3 backdated and the latest I can leave it is 5 April 2023.




Sadim said:


> Sure, like all state pension systems the rules can change with legislation..... and I do not see that "triple lock" system of annual increases surviving long.... but you can secure state pension rights progressively into the future and when they change the rules, you have what you have and be done with it. I cannot foresee a situation where they could retrospectively eliminate all your entitlements.



I agree. Think of a worst-case scenario where the UK state pension stays at today's nominal rate. It's still a fantastic return.


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## Sadim (23 Feb 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Watch out for a deadline on this.
> 
> I am paying Class 3 backdated and the latest I can leave it is 5 April 2023.
> 
> ...



From my understanding of it the "triple lock" only applies to Class 2 contributions up to your UK state retirement date, thereafter no increases. I think with Class 3 you get any annual increases indefinitely...... I'm not 100% sure about that though.

Incidentally, you are paying Class 3 VCs, did you not apply for the Class 2?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (23 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> Incidentally, you are paying Class 3 VCs, did you not apply for the Class 2?


That's what they wrote back to tell me I was entitled to pay.

I only ever worked in the UK 10 months........


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## Sadim (23 Feb 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> That's what they wrote back to tell me I was entitled to pay.
> 
> I only ever worked in the UK 10 months........



Yes, that is fair enough. To be eligible for Class 2 you must be employed abroad (Ireland). If not employed, you can only get the Class 3 option


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## ATC110 (23 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> Thats the plan anyway. I took comfort with the CTA (Common Travel Area) being formalised in Feb19 and that we would continue to have access to the system. Remember, it is two-way traffic. The CTA also allows British to claim an Irish state pension depending on their PRSI record too.
> 
> Next bit of money I free up I'll pay for those remaining 7 historic years, that should get me to £100.57pw


Yes but a now UK resident would not be compulsorily insured in the UK and be making PRSI VCs because the DEASP won’t allow under the rules (unlike HMRC as discussed).

The figure you mention above-is that what your currently weekly payment would be if you buy back the 7 years?


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## ATC110 (23 Feb 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> That's what they wrote back to tell me I was entitled to pay.
> 
> I only ever worked in the UK 10 months........


I would request a review of this. When HMRC first calculated the back years and applicable class payable, which was a combination of class 2&3, I appealed it several times and was allocated additional years for study leave and had some years reclassified from class 3 to 2. 
I only bought back the class 2 years on the basis I had enough time to buy the remaining required years on an annual basis at the class 2 rate.


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## Sadim (23 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> Yes but a now UK resident would not be compulsorily insured in the UK and be making PRSI VCs because the DEASP won’t allow under the rules (unlike HMRC as discussed).
> 
> The figure you mention above-is that what your currently weekly payment would be if you buy back the 7 years?



No, the £155.63pw is after exercising all VC options up to the max I can achieve to get 33 years on my NI record. The 14 years of VCs (7 historical paid and 7 further historical available) would bring me to £100.57pw at 2019/20 rates. The £155.63pw requires me to add a further 11 years up to my UK state retirement date in May 2031.


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## ATC110 (23 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> No, the £155.63pw is after exercising all VC options up to the max I can achieve to get 33 years on my NI record. The 14 years of VCs (7 historical paid and 7 further historical available) would bring me to £100.57pw at 2019/20 rates. The £155.63pw requires me to add a further 11 years up to my UK state retirement date in May 2031.


That’s what I meant - 100.57 as of the current period


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## Sadim (23 Feb 2021)

ATC110 said:


> That’s what I meant - 100.57 as of the current period


Yep, if I exercised those other 7 years I would now have 22 qualifying years on my NI record and that equates to a minimum of £100.57pw. You have until 5th April 2023 to exercise most of those options too


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## ATC110 (7 Apr 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Nothing is certain but at the moment a £15 weekly contribution will see you eligible for a £130 a week state pension.
> 
> Yes there is risk, but the return is phenomenal.


Hi, just rereading this thread.

To clarify, each annual voluntary NIC will buy a UK state pension of £250.

This means with the Class 3 annual rate of c.€800, the payback period would be over three years of pension payments.

With the Class 2 rate of c. €150, the payback would be around seven months.


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