# Where to after School Board Of Management does not act?



## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

We have had recourse to take our two children out of a local school and send them to other schools in our local town. 

Brief background : I went in to make a complaint about a child who both mentally and psychologically bullies my oldest son (aged 11). There was an acting principal in charge at the time who, quite franckly, is incapable of dealing with this bully. The bullying has been witnessed by my son's class mates. This bully also has had numerous complaints from other parents about his behaviour.

We lodged a complaint. The acting principal focused her attention on our son instead of dealing with the bully. The Chairman of the BOM then got involved and started to throw around false accusations. A meeting was set up (set up by the acting principal informing my wife in an offending tone infront of the other parents). We attended the meeting and handed in a letter asking them to detail what the purpose of the meeting was (no notice was given about the agenda for the meeting but the offending manner in which it had been it being called indicated it was to bully us). We left the room whereupon the Chairman of the BOM blocked my wife's exit and shouted at her to get back to the school room. To say this was shocking is an understatement. Numerous events occurred during the few weeks when this acting principal was in charge, e.g., this bully kicked our son in the head. When my wife when in to complain she was told not to worry that it was dealt with. When my wife pushed as to how it was dealt with she was informed that the bully was given a *private punishment which nobody knows about*. Her response to a complaint about us saying this bully called another pupil a N***er was incredulous,we were told by this teacher, an Acting Principal, 'that child (who was called the name) is well able to stand up for herself'. A disgraceful response from any adult let alone one in a senior teaching position. This is just a sample of the complaints we put to her.

We have written to the Chairman of the BOM, Secretary of BOM and the Principal outlining the series of events which lead to us making the complaint. I'm sure some of the events are news to the Chairman of the BOM (but I suspect not to the principal).

After about 5 weeks we have had no response to a series of questions put to them. The department of education will not get involved in any complaints as they say it is up to the BOM to deal with the issue. I have written a complaint to the patron of this school but what further recourse do we have? Ombudsman for Children?


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## rustbucket (9 Mar 2011)

Is the school a private school or fully state funded school?


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## Thirsty (9 Mar 2011)

I'm not sure I understand what is that you want?

You've moved your children to another school, where I trust they have settled in.

What is it that you want to happen at their former school?


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## Purple (9 Mar 2011)

Do you think that, as outlined by the OP, the actions of the BOM and acting principal were acceptable? 
Are you suggesting that the OP should adopt an "I'm alright jack" approach?
Do you think it is acceptable that two children have been driven out of their school?

MidlandsBase, in common with many residents associations, club committees and other boards comprised of unpaid amateurs, Boards of Managements of schools are frequently worse than useless.

Yes, you can make a complaint to the Department of Education and Skills and to the Ombudsman for Children. For details go to the _"How can I make a complaint about a teacher or a school?"_ section of their website and click on the _"Complaints Procedure"_ link.

Best of luck!


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

Thirsty said:


> I'm not sure I understand what is that you want?
> 
> You've moved your children to another school, where I trust they have settled in.
> 
> What is it that you want to happen at their former school?


 
In terms of Purple just said we will not adopt an I'm alright now approach. These people are in positions of powers which they have abused. I know of existing parents who are in the same situation as us in that this bully continues to bully other students and this teacher does nothing. As it is a small public school and of a minority religion these parents are very reluctant to act for fear of retribution towards their children. We, at least, can now openly complain. 

I know I wouldn't like to send my children to a school where private punishments are acceptable - would you? would you not prefer that something was done about it either through a change of BOM chairman or an apology from the school for their disgraceful behaviour - whether my children where in the school or not?


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

Fully funded public primary school.


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

Purple said:


> Do you think that, as outlined by the OP, the actions of the BOM and acting principal were acceptable?
> Are you suggesting that the OP should adopt an "I'm alright jack" approach?
> Do you think it is acceptable that two children have been driven out of their school?
> 
> ...


 
Hi Purple.
Thanks for the support. We have contacted the Dept of Education and bizzarely they do not get involve in complaints. All complaints must go through the BOM. No indication from their viewpoint on what happens if the BOM do not even engage. They do state that the Ombudsman for Children should therefore be contacted so I think we should go down that route.

We have heard today of a child in the class my son used to be in goes to sleep distressed thinking about the bullying that other child does. This teacher also brings some pupils to one side to pass on snide comments, etc and say to them not to tell their parents. This happened to this particular child recently and a few times to our son. So enough is enough - I don't want to be the person in ten years time who looks back and says we should have done something. We have enough history in our institutions where that has happened.


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Mar 2011)

*NPC (National Parents' Council) should be able to guide you:*

[broken link removed]

*With respect to bullying:*

[broken link removed]

The school should have a Parents' Association ..... it's a requirement by law.

*BOM Handbook - look at page 318 for Complaints' Procedure:*

[broken link removed]

You'll get all the info you need there.

*Note:* Complaints' Procedure has to be followed step by step as outlined in the handbook (Appendix 50)

It has been agreed by the *DES*, the *INTO* (Irish National Teachers' Organisation) and *CPSMA* (Catholic Primary School Managers' Association).


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## Purple (9 Mar 2011)

MidlandsBase said:


> Hi Purple.
> Thanks for the support. We have contacted the Dept of Education and bizzarely they do not get involve in complaints. All complaints must go through the BOM. No indication from their viewpoint on what happens if the BOM do not even engage. They do state that the Ombudsman for Children should therefore be contacted so I think we should go down that route.
> 
> We have heard today of a child in the class my son used to be in goes to sleep distressed thinking about the bullying that other child does. This teacher also brings some pupils to one side to pass on snide comments, etc and say to them not to tell their parents. This happended to this particular child recently and a few times to our son. So enough is enough - I don't want to be the person in ten years time who looks back and says we should have done something. We have enough history in our institutions where that has happened.



You are being fobbed off by the Department. Push them; ask for the name of the person that you are talking to, ask them for a copy of their complaints procedures etc.


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Mar 2011)

DES won't get involved as it is a BOM matter.

Complaints' Procedure as linked to by me must be followed.


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## Purple (9 Mar 2011)

PaddyBloggit said:


> *NPC (National Parents' Council) should be able to guide you:*
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> ...



Great post. Very clear.


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## Thirsty (9 Mar 2011)

I didn't indicate that I was in agreement with what has been reported; and I wouldn't do in any event, we are only getting one side of the story.  

And before anyone gets on their high horse, that's not an indication that we aren't being told the truth here.

You've taken action in what you believe is in your child's best interests (removed them from the school), which is fine.

PaddyBloggit is absolutely spot on; there is a very clear procedure to be followed in terms of complaints.

But my question is still valid - what is it that you want to happen at their former school?

If you don't know what you want, how will you know you've achieved it?


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

PaddyBloggit said:


> *NPC (National Parents' Council) should be able to guide you:*
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> ...


 
Hi Paddy,

Thanks for that. We have followed through on all of these links - we had five weeks to do so! You will notice though that the Complaint's procedures stops at the BOM and goes no further. That is our issue. The Dept of Education have then devolved any further action thereafter to HSE, An Garda (both for abuse cases) or the Ombudsman for Children. We have a written and signed letter from Dept of Ed to this effect. The latter is where this is headed in relation to the bullying by this child - I think if a child is kicked in the head then the bully should be seen to be dealt with. If the school doesn't deal with it at all then perhaps it will take an enquiry by the Ombudsman's office to make them take more care of the children in their charge and tackle this ongoing bullying issue once and for all.

However the handbook you linked to did highlight the role of the patron in this so we have communicated the incidents to him.

By the way the school in question is not a catholic primary school but at least the role of the patron should be the same so we will see what happens from that regard. The department used to have an inspectorate involved but seems to be no longer the case. 

Thanks for the links though. It is much appreciated.


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

Thirsty said:


> I didn't indicate that I was in agreement with what has been reported; and I wouldn't do in any event, we are only getting one side of the story.
> 
> And before anyone gets on their high horse, that's not an indication that we aren't being told the truth here.
> 
> ...


 

As stated above the complaints procedure stops at the BOM hence the title of my thread.

In relation to whether I am telling the truth here I see no advantage in me sitting down to make up or embellish a story. My query was what happens after the BOM fails to act. The complaints procedures do not deal with this in anyway whatsoever. We have looked into this in detail for the last 5 weeks. The complaints procedure preproposes that the BOM will actually do something on foot of the complaint. In this case they have done absolutely nothing and are probably hoping we will just go away.

The story is straight forward and we could add so much more about this particular teacher and the bullying child but what I stated above encompasses the attitude of this teacher and their inapproproate response to a valid complaint. I am sure we are not the only parents to have suffered this. 

We want an apology for the way an incident whereby our child got kicked in the head was dealt with and an apology from the BOM Chairman for the behaviour he displayed towards my wife by shouting at her and blocking her exit from a school building. I think that is not too much to ask.


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

PaddyBloggit said:


> DES won't get involved as it is a BOM matter.
> 
> Complaints' Procedure as linked to by me must be followed.


 
hence our predicament Paddy. The BOM are failing to act so the procedure does not go further than the school. The Ombudsman or the school patron may at least bring some closure to it.


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Mar 2011)

Get onto the NPC .... they'll advise you as to how you should proceed.


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## Willowchase (9 Mar 2011)

The school are obliged to have a policy on bullying. Have you asked for a copy of this?

 If you are getting no response I have no doubt but that a solicitor's letter could work wonders.


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

Thanks Paddy. We have dropped off an email to their helpline so ask for clarification on the processes.


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

Willowchase said:


> The school are obliged to have a policy on bullying. Have you asked for a copy of this?
> 
> If you are getting no response I have no doubt but that a solicitor's letter could act wonders.


 
They do have a policy on bullying and racism, etc but obviously, in this case, it depends on who is doing the bullying.

We really don't want to go down the legal route as sending a solicitors letter does not force them to respond either. They can ignore that as well but I understand what you are getting at. I think having a body like the Ombudsman investigating how they handled these complaints and their response might be more beneficial but the legal option is always there of course but it's not our initial one, for the moment.


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## Thirsty (9 Mar 2011)

I can understand the need you feel for an apology. 

Personally, however, I wonder, given the amount of time, effort and energy this will take out of your life - is it really worth it?  

If you were in position to effect real change, then I could see that the effort might be worthwhile.


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

Personally, absolutely worth it. How do you expect to effect real change by doing nothing. To be honest that was the attitude in the past in relation to recent scandals. Too many people did nothing. I don't want to hear in a few years time that this bully has seriously injured a child and I did nothing to complain about this irresponsible child, teacher and BOM Chairman. Maybe ours won't be the only letter on file, maybe there are other instances to make people think about whats going on. But there always has to be a first complaint.

Real change comes about by doing something and not about weighing up how much time, effort and energy it will take out of my life. I don't make that evaluation when children are involved. Perhaps if you or your child were treated the way we were you wouldn't be making such a prognosis but thanks for taking the time to reply anyway.


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## Thirsty (9 Mar 2011)

Think you might be mis-understanding me.

You've said that you are looking for an apology for the way you were treated.

I (personally) don't think the effort is worth it for an apology; it would be worth the effort if some real change was to be made.  However, to effect change, you need to be specific about the change required.


> ...your child were treated the way we were..


My comments and observations are borne of experience.


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## MidlandsBase (9 Mar 2011)

Thirsty said:


> Think you might be mis-understanding me.
> 
> You've said that you are looking for an apology for the way you were treated.
> 
> ...


 
What I detailed was a small subset of what this teacher has done. All of it is detailed within a letter sent to all concerned. Perhaps given our very recent experience we are probably in a better place to judge what effect this complaint may have but we will at least try rather than regret it in years to come. 

To be honest I came on here to get advice on the question on the thread so thanks Paddy, etc for the support and the answers to my query. I wasn't looking for an opinion as to whether we should spend our time, effort or energy on this. We are doing it anyway but again, Thirsty, thanks for your reply.


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## jpeast (10 Mar 2011)

Well i just want to say well done.
It will take your time up but it will be worth it.


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## MidlandsBase (10 Mar 2011)

Thanks for that jpeast. I know it will take time but even if it just raises awareness in that school then it will be worth it.


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## Complainer (10 Mar 2011)

Have you spoken directly to the Parents Rep on the BOM? You should certainly bring the complaint to this person, and explain the kind of response you expect. Find out when this person is due for reappointment.


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## MidlandsBase (10 Mar 2011)

Complainer the issue is that it is a closely knit group which effectively controls the BOM. As it's a small community they are loath to step on each others toes and that is the problem. They are not willing to deal with this issue. We followed the complaints procedure as outlined in the link on page 1 so we expect them to do likewise. As they haven't we are forced to take it further.


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## Complainer (10 Mar 2011)

I would suggest that the first step in taking it further would be a direct conversation with the Parents rep on the BOM. This person is elected by Parents, and will be up for reelection at some point.

I don't think the Parents Association will be a help to you, as they generally don't get involved in individual complaints (and rightly so).


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## MidlandsBase (10 Mar 2011)

The first step has long gone. We followed the procedure outlined in the link and in the schools policy documents. This states contact the following : teacher, principal, BOM. This is what we have done so accordingly we can now approach the Ombudsman as we have exhausted the existing guidelines set down by both the school and the department of education.


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## Complainer (10 Mar 2011)

I can't see why you would NOT contact the Parents Rep on the BOM, given that they are elected by the parents. What have you got to lose.


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## MidlandsBase (10 Mar 2011)

Complainer the situation as I stated above is a very close knit group of people. We know from past experience from other parents that approach this particular person on the PA, and depending on whom you are complaining about, the complaint falls on deaf ears. Anway the immediate response in the past has been to complain to the Board of Management which we have done. The situation in the school really does have to be seen to be believed and it is only with outside scrutiny that something may be done.


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## Nige (10 Mar 2011)

Complainer, the Parents' Reps on the BOM are not there to take complaints/concerns/issues directly from the parent body. They are there to be representative of parents, not representives for parents and so MidlandsBase is correct that, after following the complaints procedure, there is nothing to be gained by speaking directly to the parents' rep.

As an aside, all BOMs are to be replaced next October/November. However, there is nothing to stop the same people being appointed.


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## Complainer (10 Mar 2011)

Nige said:


> However, there is nothing to stop the same people being appointed.


If other parents go forward for these posts and get more support than the existing reps, the same people will not be appointed.


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## DrMoriarty (10 Mar 2011)

Individuals other than serving teachers are only "elected" for nomination to a school's Board of Management. Appointment — _not_ election — to the BoM is by decision of the Patron, sometimes following (but not necessarily bound by) the outcome of a secret ballot (see here, and appendices B & C).

The OP is quite correct in their approach and I must say I applaud their principled approach to a situation in which they clearly no longer have anything to gain.


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## ali (10 Mar 2011)

+ 1.

It's a horrible situation but the injustice should not be ignored.

Can I just ask the OP whether they are a member of the minority religion represented in the school, and if not, whether they think this may be a contributing issue?


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## MidlandsBase (10 Mar 2011)

We are not a member of the minority religion and yes, we do believe this to be a contributing issue. Whilst this claim can be denied outright by the BOM their treatment of us cannot.


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## Purple (10 Mar 2011)

For what it’s worth I’d just like to add my voice to those supporting your stance here.
If there were more people like you this would be a better country to live in.


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## MidlandsBase (10 Mar 2011)

Purple said:


> For what it’s worth I’d just like to add my voice to those supporting your stance here.
> If there were more people like you this would be a better country to live in.


 
Many thanks Purple for those kind sentiments and the support offered previously by the other contributors. It is good to know such support is out there.


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## hollacia (10 Mar 2011)

I second what Purple has said what you are doing it very admirable and I wish you the best of luck.

I hope your son is very happy in his new school and he will grow up to be a great man with a father like you guiding him.


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## MidlandsBase (10 Mar 2011)

Thanks very much for that hollacia. That's very kind of you. Our son is getting on really well in his new school as is our daugher in her school.


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## midwest (29 Feb 2012)

hi paddy

You seem to know a bit about complaints about a schools board of management. Could I ask you for some information? My son fell in the school yard and broke his ankle and was left all day even though he told his teacher it was swollen. I'm getting no where with the prinicipal or bom because its a small school and they are all friends.


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## Complainer (1 Mar 2012)

midwest said:


> hi paddy u seem to know a bit about complaints about a schools board of management could i ask u for some info my son fell in the school yard and broke his ankle and was left all day even though he told his teacher it was swollen im gettin no where with the prinicipal or bom because its a small school and there all friends



What are you hoping to achieve? Are you looking for financial compensation or what?


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## Time (1 Mar 2012)

midwest said:


> hi paddy u seem to know a bit about complaints about a schools board of management could i ask u for some info my son fell in the school yard and broke his ankle and was left all day even though he told his teacher it was swollen im gettin no where with the prinicipal or bom because its a small school and there all friends



Solicitor. Go see one. Simples.


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## Knuttell (2 Mar 2012)

OP I would like to thank you for the stance you are making,if it were not for people like you drawing a line in the sand then how many other countless children would have to endure this unacceptable behaviour and have their education suffer drastically,kids have enough to be dealing with,God love them without being terrified of going to school every day,it is far too easy just to throw your hat at it and leave it be someone elses problem.
Good for you and while I have no real constructive advice,beyond echoing the previous posters suggestion of going the legal route,I wish you all the best in this matter.


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