# sick day in civil service- can this be used if child is sick?



## dubinamerica (14 Jan 2007)

Hi - had to ring into work recently as one of my children were sick. I thought that I could take this as a 'sick' day but was informed that as I wasn't sick that could not be done.This is with the civil service - any one know of the rules and the common practises on this? Thanks.


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## A_b (14 Jan 2007)

should be entitled to force majeure leave


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## Joe1234 (14 Jan 2007)

dubinamerica said:


> I thought that I could take this as a 'sick' day but was informed that as I wasn't sick that could not be done.



Whatever made you think that it could?


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## Marion (14 Jan 2007)

> Whatever made you think that it could?



Probably (as opposed to possibly) because nobody informed him/her otherwise.

Marion


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## oldtimer (14 Jan 2007)

A b is correct - this is a classic case of 'force majeure' leave. As far as I know you are entitled to three days in a year,  5 days over 3 years.


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## Murt10 (15 Jan 2007)

Here is the D/Finance circular to all Govt Depts regarding the granting of ‘force majeure’ leave which you are entitled to. As you, yourself, were not sick, you were not entitled to casual sick leave.




Murt


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## Barley (15 Jan 2007)

Here's what it says on our civil service intranet:

_"(a)_ _Force Majeure Leave_
Under the Parental Leave Act, 1998 a staff member is entitled to Force Majeure leave with pay for urgent family reasons – injury to or the illness of an immediate relative. This shall not exceed 3 days in any period of 12 consecutive months or 5 days in any period of 36 consecutive months. Absence for part of a day is counted as one day for the purpose of Force Majeure Leave. Relevant periods for purpose of calculating Force Majeure Leave should commence from 3rd December 1998 in case of serving staff and from date of recruitment in respect of new entrants.

_(b)   Special leave for family illness or injury
_In the event of serious and unforeseen illness of or injury to a staff member’s immediate relative, a staff member may be granted special leave with pay up to the limits mentioned in (a) and (b) of paragraph 1 mentioned above, provided that the amount of special leave granted to the staff member in any one leave year, together with his / her annual leave entitlement (excluding carry over leave) does not exceed a total of 26 days. This will not apply however if the annual leave allowance of the staff member has been exhausted.


_(c)    Special leave under (a) and (b) above
_Under paragraphs (a) and (b) above special leave may not exceed five days in total in respect of a spouse or child and three days in total in respect of other immediate relatives in any particular leave year.

Staff members can combine leave under (a) and (b) above in respect of the same illness or injury to an immediate relative, provided that:

(i)  The overall limits mentioned above are not exceeded.

(ii) The Head of Human Resources is satisfied that leave is in compliance with all relevant conditions set out above.

Unpaid Leave
A staff member may be granted special leave without pay for domestic reasons subject to the following conditions and upper limits:

(a)  6 months to cope with difficulties arising from the death or serious illness of an immediate relative. Care for an immediate relative during sickness or old age (if no suitable person other than the staff member is able to provide the care).

(b)  2 months to travel abroad to visit immediate relative who is suffering from serious and unforeseen illness ( if staff member is only person who can make the visit).

(c)  To deal with urgent domestic problems other than those mentioned above.

The provisions of the above paragraph which relate to death, old age and illness of an immediate relative may also be applied, in exceptional circumstances, in respect of more distant relatives. Special leave without pay for domestic reasons does not reckon as service for the purposes of increments, annual leave or superannuation."​


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## Murphi (16 Jan 2007)

Hi There
I have just use one of these Force Majour days sucessfully - my daughter needed a small day operation in Our Ladys and I was damned if I was using holidays up for this so looked into it and took two days under this scheme.  If ya dont use you lose in this country.  You can also apply for them after the occasion by the way it is not only for upcoming days you need.


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## Welfarite (17 Jan 2007)

You should have recieved info. on all this from your personnel section? Force Majeure was a well kept secret in the CS, though, up to recent times!


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## dubinamerica (20 Jan 2007)

We have received surprisingly little information on anything from personnel!!  I have spoken to some of my colleagues who have been in the service for some time - they mentioned that the service usually only give force majeure leave if all of your vacation leave has been used up - that doesn't sound right from reading the above, or maybe I've missed something. Anyone have experience on that ? Also - do you have to be in the service for a year before applying?


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## tinkerbell (20 Jan 2007)

Force Majeure can only be used if a) its something totally out of the blue, ie. an accident,etc. and definitely  not something that you are aware is coming up, i.e. a relative being taken into hospital next week and you know well in advance and b) your attendance is vital, ie. you need to be there to tend the relative, etc.    I had great difficulty obtaining my FM recently so I am amazed Murphi could get it for a day operation which I presume you were aware of in advance?  I was told this by Human Resources in my own department when granted FM recently.    I still had annual leave left at that stage and very relunctly was granted FM due to the circumstances.   Sounds to me like it depends on where you work, your superiors outlook, etc. and no standard practices?


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## rabbit (21 Jan 2007)

dubinamerica said:


> Hi - had to ring into work recently as one of my children were sick. I thought that I could take this as a 'sick' day but was informed that as I wasn't sick that could not be done.


 
They informed you correctly.   In most places people take this out of their paid annual holidays.   If everyone in the country took an extra 3 days off would anything ever get done ?


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## dubinamerica (21 Jan 2007)

I'm not asking whether people should take it or questioning the merits of time off that is not annual vacation, just simply asking was this accurate. Sure, if everyone stopped taking parental leave, maternity leave, and any type of sick leave there'd be a lot more working days completed !!


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## Murt10 (21 Jan 2007)

tinkerbell said:


> Force Majeure can only be used if a) its something totally out of the blue, ie. an accident,etc. and definitely  not something that you are aware is coming up........ I still had annual leave left at that stage and very relunctly was granted FM due to the circumstances.   Sounds to me like it depends on where you work, your superiors outlook, etc. and no standard practices?



Heere's a link to the Dept. of Equality website.

http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?locID=22&docID=237

The sumary states an employee is entitled to leave with pay from his or her employment for urgent family reasons, owing to the injury or illness of any of the persons listed below.

a child or adoptive child of the employee; the spouse of the employee, or a person with whom the employee is living as husband or wife;......... 

Entitlement to force majeure leave is limited to circumstances where the immediate presence of the employee, at the place where the ill or injured person is situated, is indispensable.



I don't see where the Dept of Equality states that the leave cannot be taken if the illness/operation can be anticipated. Likewise, if a child is, in your opinion, too sick to go to the creche or school, then you are within your rights to take this leave. If your employer has any queries explain that you are entitled to it and if they don't accept that then ask them to show you the section that says that you are not entitled to it.

There was always force majeur leave in the Civil Service but it was not widely publicised. As far as I remember, it was only given in the event of serious and unforseen illness of an immediate dependent and then only when your annual leave had been exausted. The person to whom the application for FM leave may not have been aware of the recent changes. 


Murt


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## rabbit (22 Jan 2007)

Murt10 said:


> As far as I remember, it was only given in the event of *serious and unforseen* illness of an immediate dependent and then only when your annual leave had been exausted.
> Murt


Correct, that is the spirit in which it was intended.   Yes,* serious and unforseen* illness - that is the key phrase.


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## Joe1234 (22 Jan 2007)

dubinamerica said:


> Sure, if everyone stopped taking parental leave, maternity leave, and any type of sick leave there'd be a lot more working days completed !!



There would be even more working days completed if nobody took any annual leave too!!


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## tinkerbell (22 Jan 2007)

Yep "unforeseen" circumstances as rabbit points out is an important point.  I was clearly told by Human Resources in my department that I would never have got it except it was an accident that happened and had it been something that was planned like an operation I would definitely not get it.  I had to fight hard enough to get it even though it was an accident and my presence was required.  Trust me, at times like that, the last thing you should be forced to think about it what kind of leave you must take!


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## Joe1234 (22 Jan 2007)

A few years ago, a couple I know suffered a miscarriage.  The husband applied for, and was granted force majeur leave.  The wife got nothing, as she was off sick for 2 days, and could not claim for the first 3 days.


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## RainyDay (22 Jan 2007)

Murt10 said:


> Heere's a link to the Dept. of Equality website.
> 
> http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?locID=22&docID=237
> 
> ...


Small point, but we don't have a Dept of Equality, since the current Government came into power and merged the Dept of Equality & Law Reform into the Dept of Justice. The link you posted is from the Equality Authority, an agency under the aegis of the Dept of Justice, Equality & Law Reform.


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