# How long to stay in the UK following a BR order



## no_moolah (1 Apr 2014)

Hi guys

Does anyone know how long I would be expected to stay in the UK following the granting of my BR order?

My solicitors are telling me 3 weeks but I've gotten really bad advice off them so far so I am weary about trusting what they tell me.

They have advised that once I get the OR interview out of the way I am free to leave. Seems to good to be true though !

I would appreciate any input.

Thanks

NM


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## DonJuan30 (1 Apr 2014)

My solicitor (Steve T) recommended 3 months at least. I have decided to see out the full year here though just to keep things as simple as possible.


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## no_moolah (1 Apr 2014)

DonJuan30 said:


> My solicitor (Steve T) recommended 3 months at least. I have decided to see out the full year here though just to keep things as simple as possible.


 
Is that because they can overturn the order if they think you've only come over to declare yourself BR? I thought under EU regulations that it didn't matter if that was your agenda - once you had properly established your COMI.


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## Steve Thatcher (2 Apr 2014)

I do recommend two to three months. Why try and push it. let the Or finish with you then leave and then a few months after that tell him your new address. You have a duty to update the OR of your change of circumstances.

I am not sure that you have had the best advice or assistance anyway through this process moolah.

Don't blow your bankruptcy and run the risk of it being overturned by a feisty OR for the sake of a few weeks and being certain he wants nothing else from you.

I take it you have told your creditors your new address, and have you surrendered any property you can to the creditors to make the OR's job easier? Just checking this as these are basic bits of advice you should have been given.

Are you being advised to do a witness statement with all the evidence of your comi attached to hand in with your statement of affairs?

Steve Thatcher
www.stevethatcher.ie


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## Bronte (2 Apr 2014)

no_moolah said:


> My solicitors are telling me 3 weeks but I've gotten really bad advice off them so far so I am weary about trusting what they tell me.


 
Can you outline the bad advice on here Moolah, it would be helpful to others.


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## prodigy81 (2 Apr 2014)

Can you still surrender your house if its jointly owned and only 1 going bankrupt though??


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## no_moolah (2 Apr 2014)

Steve Thatcher said:


> I do recommend two to three months. Why try and push it. let the Or finish with you then leave and then a few months after that tell him your new address. You have a duty to update the OR of your change of circumstances.
> 
> I am not sure that you have had the best advice or assistance anyway through this process moolah.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Steve

Yes I informed my creditors of my new address. I have actually had to do my own research on this as I don't trust any of the advice my solicitors have given.

My hearing was dismissed a month ago because I was not in the UK for the full 6 months and I had moved to a different area not realising that I had to be in that area for the majority of the 6 months prior to presenting the petition. My solicitors were fully aware of how long I was living in the area at the time but they failed to mention that this could be a potential issue with the court. In fact they then told me to apply to a different court despite the fact that I did not reside in their jurisdiction. I rejected this advice and moved back to my original area prior to presenting the current petition.

Thankfully I was advised to hand in a witness statement and I have fully reviewed this. Also my property has already been repossessed.

This whole process is stressful enough without bad solicitors adding to the stress. I would definitely advise someone to be careful when going with irish law firms as you don't know who they're instructing on the other side.

As always Steve, thank you for your assistance. You have been a bigger help than my own solicitors. I will be sure to post my experience when I do finally get the order.


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## no_moolah (2 Apr 2014)

Bronte said:


> Can you outline the bad advice on here Moolah, it would be helpful to others.


 
I have just posted it in my response to Steve. 

Another issue is that I was advised by my irish solicitors, my uk insolvency practitioners, and my uk solicitors that I could apply for the order 
as soon as my COMI had been established which they advised was 5 or 6 months. We went ahead with the petition when I was just shy of the 6 months but what I didn’t know was that by signing the petition you are declaring that you have been in the UK for 6 months or more and that you have been residing in the jurisdiction of that particular court for the greater part of the last 6 months. I did not read the wording of it beforehand as I didn't think I needed to considering I had an advisor but you really can't be too careful. The judge I got on the day was not impressed at all.


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## Steve Thatcher (2 Apr 2014)

no_moolah said:


> I have just posted it in my response to Steve.
> 
> Another issue is that I was advised by my irish solicitors, my uk insolvency practitioners, and my uk solicitors that I could apply for the order
> as soon as my COMI had been established which they advised was 5 or 6 months. We went ahead with the petition when I was just shy of the 6 months but what I didn’t know was that by signing the petition you are declaring that you have been in the UK for 6 months or more and that you have been residing in the jurisdiction of that particular court for the greater part of the last 6 months. I did not read the wording of it beforehand as I didn't think I needed to considering I had an advisor but you really can't be too careful. The judge I got on the day was not impressed at all.




The Judge is wrong. The law is that you need to be in the area of the court in question for the greater part of six months. There is nothing at all to say or suggest anywhere that you need to be in the UK from abroad six months. I was before a Bankruptcy Judge last week and nothing at all was mentioned about my client being here for 5 months only. The Judge erred. Did your advisors not go to court with you? Anybody who new how to do this would have been able to tell the Judge they were wrong

Steve Thatcher


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## no_moolah (2 Apr 2014)

Steve Thatcher said:


> The Judge is wrong. The law is that you need to be in the area of the court in question for the greater part of six months. There is nothing at all to say or suggest anywhere that you need to be in the UK from abroad six months. I was before a Bankruptcy Judge last week and nothing at all was mentioned about my client being here for 5 months only. The Judge erred. Did your advisors not go to court with you? Anybody who new how to do this would have been able to tell the Judge they were wrong
> 
> Steve Thatcher


 
Yes I had a legal agent with me who attempted to argue with the Judge but the Judge said that it was not a matter of COMI but of residency. I wasn't in the jurisdiction of the court for the greater part of the 6 months but also he was arguing that because I was not in the UK 6 months he wasn't going to entertain it. He even commented on my debts being in Ireland. I think the legal agent was way out of his depth. The Judge spent the first 5 mins challenging my legal agent on why he was in the room and in what capacity he was representing me. It was a disaster to say the least !


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## Bronte (2 Apr 2014)

no_moolah said:


> IAnother issue is that I was advised by my irish solicitors, my uk insolvency practitioners, and my uk solicitors .


 
You mean you have 3 sets of help. Are you paying all of them? How much if you don't mind me asking, I'm presuming you went to an Irish solicitor first, don't name them, but how did you pick them? Are they 'in the news' in the debt solutions sections? Did the Irish solicitor then put you in contact with a UK solicitor etc. 

Who actually went into court with you, as in what was their qualification, you mention advisor, that's therefore not a solicitor, you mention in particular they were out of their depth in court, are they not well experienced?

In relation to the judge, you may have been very unlucky, judge unhappy on the day, not content to put up with an 'advisor' versus a 'solicitor', being wary of too many Irish forum shopping etc.


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## Steve Thatcher (2 Apr 2014)

no_moolah said:


> Yes I had a legal agent with me who attempted to argue with the Judge but the Judge said that it was not a matter of COMI but of residency. I wasn't in the jurisdiction of the court for the greater part of the 6 months but also he was arguing that because I was not in the UK 6 months he wasn't going to entertain it. He even commented on my debts being in Ireland. I think the legal agent was way out of his depth. The Judge spent the first 5 mins challenging my legal agent on why he was in the room and in what capacity he was representing me. It was a disaster to say the least !



It sounds like amateur hour from start to finish. You can contact me if you need further help with this, (I won't charge to help sort this out, it seems like you have spent enough already and are so close)

Steve Thatcher


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## no_moolah (2 Apr 2014)

Bronte said:


> You mean you have 3 sets of help. Are you paying all of them? How much if you don't mind me asking, I'm presuming you went to an Irish solicitor first, don't name them, but how did you pick them? Are they 'in the news' in the debt solutions sections? Did the Irish solicitor then put you in contact with a UK solicitor etc.
> 
> Who actually went into court with you, as in what was their qualification, you mention advisor, that's therefore not a solicitor, you mention in particular they were out of their depth in court, are they not well experienced?
> 
> In relation to the judge, you may be been unlucky, judge unhappy on the day, not content to put up with an 'advisor' versus a 'solicitor', being wary of too many Irish forum shopping etc.


 
No I only paid the one fee to the irish law firm and they instructed the other companies. I went with them because they were associated with Steve Thatcher at one stage and I thought that's who my advisor would ultimately be. Yes they are well known in the debt solution sections. I can PM you the details if you like. Also I will PM you the cost too.

I have no idea what the legal agent's qualification was - trainee barrister maybe ? The guy had apparently done loads of applications but did not appear to be able for arguing my case in court.


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## Notsureatall (2 Apr 2014)

Just in relation to the court appearance for anyone who is nervous about it, or cost, i did not have any legal representation as my solicitor was a joke but for anyone who is nervous of going to court alone there is a FREE government service,cant remember the name but they had big posters up and had offices at my court and they provide someone just to go in with you for moral support only. They do not provide advice but I have to say I had a lovely person come with me and I just felt so much better and it was free. P.s my court case took 10mins and the only question I was asked was to confirm my name,address.


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## Steve Thatcher (2 Apr 2014)

no_moolah said:


> No I only paid the one fee to the irish law firm and they instructed the other companies. I went with them because they were associated with Steve Thatcher at one stage and I thought that's who my advisor would ultimately be. Yes they are well known in the debt solution sections. I can PM you the details if you like. Also I will PM you the cost too.
> 
> I have no idea what the legal agent's qualification was - trainee barrister maybe ? The guy had apparently done loads of applications but did not appear to be able for arguing my case in court.



I know who you mean, it was a group often in the media (even more than me and Brendan but not as much as David Hall). I sincerely hope they made no allusion to me working for or with them. I severed my ties when I realised they added nothing to what I do. They can advise but have no practical experience and I have no idea which shower they are using over here.

Steve Thatcher


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## Bronte (2 Apr 2014)

I've to report your post Steve as Burgess has to be careful on what people write.  Perhaps you could reword it, you have the legal speak for doing so !


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## Bronte (2 Apr 2014)

no_moolah said:


> I have no idea what the legal agent's qualification was - trainee barrister maybe ? The guy had apparently done loads of applications but did not appear to be able for arguing my case in court.


 
I was well able to figure out who you meant, and you're right not to name them. I post on here to aid other people, I've no personal interest in bankruptcy, I'm more interested in people finding out the best solution for them and getting on with their lives. That's why I ask so many questions. You and others giving others all their experiences is very helpful. 

I think Steve is great to offer you his help for free, I'd be grabbing that offer with both hands. He's been most informative over the years with advice to plenty of people on here.


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## Gerry Canning (2 Apr 2014)

Steve/Bronte; 
You are both excellent at being inquisitive and informative.

I find it very interesting that I get much better practical tips from you than I do from Regulated experts! 
So keep up the solid information.


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## DonJuan30 (2 Apr 2014)

no_moolah said:


> Is that because they can overturn the order if they think you've only come over to declare yourself BR? I thought under EU regulations that it didn't matter if that was your agenda - once you had properly established your COMI.




Hi no moolah,

The reason I decided to stay the year was probably due to a little bit of paranoia, and not wanting to risk my best laid plans falling apart. As I'm sure you know, as part of the bankruptcy you declare your income and expenditure which the OR reviews and decides if there is surplus income after living costs. If there is, they'll set up an Income Payment Order for 3 years, which obviously is something you want to avoid. My OR decided after reviewing my income and expenditure that there should be an IPO of 40pounds a month, and I had to argue the case with them to reverse that decision. I didnt want to go through the same review and stress again if I moved back to Ireland, so I'm just keeping the status quo until my Bankruptcy is over and then I'll move back without being under the watchful gaze of my OR.  I say watchful gaze, but in actual fact I haven't heard from them since I went Bankrupt over 8 months ago.


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## Bronte (3 Apr 2014)

How DonJuan did you manage to persuade the OR for no income payment order?  How did he decide that there should have been one in the first place?


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## Bronte (3 Apr 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> Steve/Bronte;
> You are both excellent at being inquisitive and informative.
> 
> .


 
That's nice to get positive feedback Gerry, I do sometimes wonder do I ask too many questions, and feel that I'm getting repetative.  Hopefully some of the Irish bankrupts are helped by the threads on here.  Still cannot understand why we don't have a user friendly bankruptcy/insolvency system.


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## DonJuan30 (5 Apr 2014)

Bronte said:


> How DonJuan did you manage to persuade the OR for no income payment order?  How did he decide that there should have been one in the first place?



Hi Bronte

I wrote to the OR and asked them to reconsider. I told them that money was already very tight and that I needed it to pay for lots of things that i would otherwise be unable to do.  I also said that it was an immaterial amount to my creditors to receive 480 pounds per year. Thankfully they were reasonable and removed it. Have to say its at times like that it was great to be able call up steve and get his advice.


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## javanaise (14 Apr 2014)

Hi all, I'm a bit freaked out by this thread. I've recently signed up with a firm well known in the media to go through this process, and I'm concerned that they are the ones referred to in a negative way here. Is there any chance someone could PM me and tell me who this firm is? I'm a few weeks into the process and really, really don't want to leave anything to chance. Thanks.


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## fliptzer (18 Apr 2014)

After I got my order, I continued to live in the jurisdiction until I was discharged. I wasn't going to risk getting the order overturned on the basis of non compliance with the Official Receiver. It was a tough year but worth it, as one of the (former) creditors checked up on my new address and sent an collection agency out to me (which was then politely referred to the OR). I think that the agency were appointed to establish whether or not I was living where I claimed I was (which I had been and continued to do so until date of discharge). From my experience, I'd recommend getting proper legal advice and asking the OR to explain what exactly you can and can't do as some of the restrictions are a bit excessive, e.g. I had to get written permission to leave the country to go on holiday for a week but I played ball and it was well worth it in the end.


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## prodigy81 (16 May 2014)

Has anyone ever heard of a bankruptcy being over turned because I person asked to to go back home? Like if there was a real possibility of better employment?? Does that make sense!!?


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## Matthew Moore (16 May 2014)

prodigy81 said:


> Has anyone ever heard of a bankruptcy being over turned because I person asked to to go back home? Like if there was a real possibility of better employment?? Does that make sense!!?



You should bear in mind that if your income was above a certain level before you were discharged then you would be open to having your extra income taken for 3 years from that point. Coming home for more income may mean prolonging your bankruptcy.


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## suarez (16 May 2014)

yyyyy


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## prodigy81 (16 May 2014)

Sorry, I am talking about a person returning home because the job was better not necessarily the wages!!


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## suarez (16 May 2014)

yyy


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## suarez (16 May 2014)

prodigy81 said:


> Has anyone ever heard of a bankruptcy being over turned because I person asked to to go back home? Like if there was a real possibility of better employment?? Does that make sense!!?



Ttt


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## suarez (16 May 2014)

javanaise said:


> Hi all, I'm a bit freaked out by this thread. I've recently signed up with a firm well known in the media to go through this process, and I'm concerned that they are the ones referred to in a negative way here. Is there any chance someone could PM me and tell me who this firm is? I'm a few weeks into the process and really, really don't want to leave anything to chance. Thanks.[/QUOTEyyy


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## Steve Thatcher (19 May 2014)

No. I've helped 350 people. Many have returned home at various stages during the 12 months, it is NEVER an issue.

Steve Thatcher
www.stevethatcher.ie


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## suarez (27 May 2014)

A few weeks after the OR meeting - especially if it's a relatively straightforward process.


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## so-crates (27 May 2014)

suarez is there a good reason you are replacing all your posts with nonsense characters? It will stymie others reading the thread who are perhaps looking for help.


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## suarez (27 May 2014)

Socrates - I probably erred by recommending other insolvency companies - which has been construed as advertising. It seems that only one - possibly 2 - are allowed self promote on this site. UncleMonty's comments were removed as they attempted to suggest contacting specific UK insolvency companies that offer free live chat options for any initial enquiries. Certain insolvency experts charge 250 for initial face to face meeting and UncleMonty's suggestion of alternative live chat options were deleted. It's important for Irish people to know that there are choices out there.


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