# Solicitors fees



## thesteve (5 Apr 2013)

Not sure if this is the right section to post this, mods please move if it's not the right place.

I need some advice RE receiving a bill form a solicitor. The summary of our interactions went like this.

- I called him, explained what I needed help with, he asked me for some documents
- I sent documents to him, dated, commented, all very clear
- He called me to arrange a meeting
- I met with him for one hour at which point he mentioned, "you received my section 68 letter yeah?". I replied no.
- I received it the next day outlaying his fees, this was the first mention of his rates and they were so high, I emailed him and said unfortunately we couldn't retain his services.

Now I've received a bill for the phone calls, him reading the documents I sent him, and the time for the meeting.

I know that logic dictates that I pay for the time I took up of his, but I've spoken to numerous solicitors over the years and was never charged for a conversation. 

I've read up on the section 68 stuff, and in this case, can I refuse to pay based on the fact that the charges were not clear before all these events took place?


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## Jim2007 (5 Apr 2013)

Do you also go into a restaurant and not bother about the prices until the bill comes???


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## Niall Brady (5 Apr 2013)

Many solicitors didn't charge to make a will in the past but that's changed in my experience. "Free" advise is a scarce commodity in the current environment.


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## Negotiator (5 Apr 2013)

I know what a section 68 is but I'm not sure the the full ins and outs of exactly how it works but I imagine this should have been issued to you immediately when you engaged in his services. If you could clarify exactly when did he issue the section 68 it might paint a clearer picture ie- was it after your first face to face meeting and was a section 68 ever mentioned before then?

I would absolutely point blank refuse to pay anything and if you are threatened in any way I would lodge a complaint to the law society. If I'm reading this right, your (former) solicitor did not make you aware of the cost of his services from day 1 and when he did finally do that you considered it to be excessive which is perfectly your right.

That is nearly like walking into a shop and a shop assistant spends an hour helping you pick out some items they have for sale. However for argument sake lets say the items weren't price marked and nothing was mentioned. Then when you get to the checkout you realize these items were way more expensive than you thought. You don't suddenly have to fork out for all the 'help' you got from the assistant, he/she should've let you know in advance so tough luck and I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time it happened either so they should be more conscious of letting the customers/clients know from the outset!!


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## Bronte (5 Apr 2013)

thesteve said:


> Now I've received a bill for the phone calls, him reading the documents I sent him, and the time for the meeting.


 
I think it's appalling that you wouldn't think  it was correct behavour to pay him for his services.  His time costs money.  It was up to you to agree a no fees initial consultation if you so wished and it was also up to you to at the very least ask him how much his fees are.


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## Bronte (5 Apr 2013)

Negotiator said:


> That is nearly like walking into a shop and a shop assistant spends an hour helping you pick out some items they have for sale. However for argument sake lets say the items weren't price marked and nothing was mentioned. Then when you get to the checkout you realize these items were way more expensive than you thought. You don't suddenly have to fork out for all the 'help' you got from the assistant, he/she should've let you know in advance so tough luck and I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time it happened either so they should be more conscious of letting the customers/clients know from the outset!!


 
That's a nonsense comparison.


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## Vanilla (5 Apr 2013)

A solicitor is obliged to send a s.68 estimate only when they can first reasonably establish the amount of work and type of work involved. We are not psychic and cannot assess this prior to getting initial instructions, and sometimes relevant papers/title etc. So it doesn't sound to me as though the solicitor here was necessarily late in sending a s.68 at all.

Furthermore the lack of a s.68 does not mean a solicitor cannot charge fees. If a solicitor doesn't send a s.68 it is an internal disciplinary matter within the Law Society, and has no bearing on whether the costs are actually due.


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## Negotiator (5 Apr 2013)

Vanilla said:


> A solicitor is obliged to send a s.68 estimate only when they can first reasonably establish the amount of work and type of work involved. We are not psychic and cannot assess this prior to getting initial instructions, and sometimes relevant papers/title etc. So it doesn't sound to me as though the solicitor here was necessarily late in sending a s.68 at all.
> 
> Furthermore the lack of a s.68 does not mean a solicitor cannot charge fees. If a solicitor doesn't send a s.68 it is an internal disciplinary matter within the Law Society, and has no bearing on whether the costs are actually due.



From my experience all solicitors charge a per hour fee (for most work) so why would it matter about the work involved. It's very straight forward and doesn't need to be complicated in any way. The OP probably assumed (wrongly perhaps) that the solicitor's fees were going to be 'reasonable' and didn't press the issue at the start. It is 100% the responsibility of the solicitor to ensure the client is happy with their fees before they start 'running the meter', otherwise they should expect this type of scenario.


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## Negotiator (5 Apr 2013)

Bronte said:


> That's a nonsense comparison.



I thought it was pretty good myself but I'll try think of a better one the next time!


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## Vanilla (5 Apr 2013)

Negotiator said:


> From my experience all solicitors charge a per hour fee (for most work) so why would it matter about the work involved.


 
Not all solicitors time cost their work.

Secondly, solicitors are entitled to charge for initial consultations.


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## Negotiator (5 Apr 2013)

Vanilla said:


> Not all solicitors time cost their work.
> 
> Secondly, solicitors are entitled to charge for initial consultations.



Maybe so, but not exactly the best way to establishing long term relationships with new clients or growing a business based on good customer service! It would be very short sighted as the vast majority of people use the same solicitor for most of their life!!

With regard to time costing their work......apart from conveyancing I've always been charged by the hour. But I do take your point that not all work is time costed.


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## Vanilla (5 Apr 2013)

Negotiator said:


> Maybe so, but not exactly the best way to establishing long term relationships with new clients or growing a business based on good customer service! It would be very short sighted as the vast majority of people use the same solicitor for most of their life!!


 
It all depends on the circumstances. In the particular case here, clearly the OP had telephone conversation/s, sent in documents which the solicitor had to spend time reading and a consultation during which it may well be that not only instructions were taken but initial advice given. They were then contacted to say their services would no longer be used. In those circumstances I would think the solicitor was quite right to charge. They have every right to do so and , and, it seems from the limited information available, that the s.68 letter was given at the appropriate time. So your initial knee jerk reaction advice to the OP to point blank refuse to pay and complain to the Law Society are way off base.


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## Negotiator (5 Apr 2013)

Vanilla said:


> It all depends on the circumstances. In the particular case here, clearly the OP had telephone conversation/s, sent in documents which the solicitor had to spend time reading and a consultation during which it may well be that not only instructions were taken but initial advice given. They were then contacted to say their services would no longer be used. In those circumstances I would think the solicitor was quite right to charge. They have every right to do so and , and, it seems from the limited information available, that the s.68 letter was given at the appropriate time. So your initial knee jerk reaction advice to the OP to point blank refuse to pay and complain to the Law Society are way off base.



If we are to take the OP's situation at face value as he describes then it would appear that the solicitor seemed to be very flippant about the section 68 by saying "you received my section 68 letter, yeah?" when in fact he clearly hadn't sent it out to him. If the solicitor did say this then it CLEARLY implies that he should have actually sent it out to him prior to that meeting. So, the solicitor did NOT send out the section 68 to him NOR at the appropriate time. The solicitor is in my mind wrong on all counts here!

So call it a knee jerk reaction but I can only take the OP's comments at face value and based on that, the solicitor was effectively trying to cover up his complacency around the issue of fees by implying that he had already sent out the section 68 when he would have known damn well he hadn't. This was also DISHONEST and one would certainly expect a much higher level of professionalism from a solicitor whom you are paying good money for their service!


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## Vanilla (5 Apr 2013)

Actually if you take it at face value, it implies the solicitor did send the s.68, but the client hadn't received it at the time of the meeting. He did receive it afterwards. We are not given a timeline and of course, what is posted on the internet can be very biased.

So saying the solicitor was dishonest is a very far reaching statement in the circumstances, and frankly, your statement referring to paying good money for their services is ironic given that you initially advised OP to pay nothing at all.


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## Negotiator (5 Apr 2013)

Vanilla said:


> So saying the solicitor was dishonest is a very far reaching statement in the circumstances, and frankly, your statement referring to paying good money for their services is ironic given that you initially advised OP to pay nothing at all.



The reason why I advised the OP to pay nothing at all is because the solicitor, at least at first blush (to coin a phrase used all too often by the legal profession!) , failed in his legal obligation to issue a section 68 to his client outlining his fees......period! 

It's hard to argue this without the exact info on the section 68 as to when exactly it was sent out etc. However unless the section 68 was sent out to the client at close of business the day before the meeting then it is VERY unlikely that the client wouldn't have already received it and I would give my best guess that this wasn't the case!

So, I at least hope you are willing to accept that the solicitor was being dishonest if it transpires that it was indeed only sent out after their meeting (which I'm 99% convinced that this is the case). I will certainly change my view if it was sent out earlier.

It would be nice if the OP would come back and straighten out the facts in relation to this before Vanilla and I start filing law suits of our own! haha


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## Negotiator (5 Apr 2013)

Bronte said:


> I think it's appalling that you wouldn't think  it was correct behavour to pay him for his services.  His time costs money.  It was up to you to agree a no fees initial consultation if you so wished and it was also up to you to at the very least ask him how much his fees are.



May I ask you Bronte if you've every gone to a solicitor you've never used before and were you billed for an 'initial consultation'?


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## ontour (5 Apr 2013)

The product that a solicitor sells is their advice so I would never expect it for free.  I have had many interactions with solicitors that were not charged.  It is not unusual for many people to place very little value on other people's time.  This should encourage both clients and solicitors to ensure that there is clarity on charges from the outset.

As a general rule, it is probably best to confirm that a client has agreed to pay for the service before investing effort.


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## Palerider (6 Apr 2013)

Pay the fee, learn the lesson and next time discuss in advance.


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## PaddyW (8 Apr 2013)

Sorry to jump in here but I am in the middle of a personal injuries claim. I am committed to a particular solicitor and so far all has gone well. They have not as yet though, informed me of charges. I'm not too bothered about that as I will pay his fee as I expect he will win this case for me. It's also a no win no fee arrangement. 
He has said he will let me know the fees when the case has been settled. Is this normal and if so would anyone be able to give me an estimate of what his fees will be, say percentage wise or other? 
I realise he will take fees for any physiotherapy, medical examinations etc and also for any time spent on the case along with any admin costs and that. But after that is it a case of a set rate percentage that he would take from the award?

Just another note I wanted to add. I know that in the past, solicitors have had their fees awarded from the other side in such cases. Is this still the practice or do they take all their fees from client awards these days?


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## Vanilla (9 Apr 2013)

The solicitor should give you an estimate of their charge or the basis on which they will charge at the first possible time when they can reasonably estimate the work involved. I think you should look for a written estimate now. No-one can predict what your solicitor will charge as fees vary greatly.


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## PaddyW (9 Apr 2013)

Thanks Vanilla, will ask him so.


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## Bronte (15 Apr 2013)

Negotiator said:


> May I ask you Bronte if you've every gone to a solicitor you've never used before and were you billed for an 'initial consultation'?


 
I've always stuck with my own excellent solicitor in Ireland for many moons now.  And have never had a section 68 letter and personally don't need one and have always agreed the fee up front.  

Abroad I've hired one, but fees are set for property transactions and when I took a landlord to court here there were set fees that were too low for the solicitor to act but we agreed his fee in advance which I was happy to pay.  

I would never agree to a fee per hour.  If it were complicated which can happen then my solicitor would discuss with me and we'd take it from there.


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## whiskey1 (30 Apr 2013)

Negotiator said:


> I thought it was pretty good myself but I'll try think of a better one the next time!



Thought it an okay comparision myself.


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## Negotiator (30 Apr 2013)

whiskey1 said:


> Thought it an okay comparision myself.



Thanks Whiskey, you obviously believe in the concept of providing good customer Service......something that would appear to be completely lost on the service provider in this case!


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## thesteve (28 May 2013)

I didn't get any email notifications that there was activity on this thread so apologies for the late update. The end of the story was that I negotiated the fee down and paid it. It was never my intention not to pay *anything* (I know I worded the initial post wrong), but I was enquiring into how this process should normally work during disputes.

I can't see the entire thread to comment inline so I'll cover some points;
- the section 68 was issued 2 days after our in person meeting, this was the first time any fees were raised to me
- I know time costs money but people should be upfront about costs, especially when they're bordering on ridiculous


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## Bronte (29 May 2013)

thesteve said:


> I can't see the entire thread to comment inline


 

Down the bottom of the thread/screen there is a page 1/2/3, you just click on the pages to go along or back.


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