# Help - Negative Equity, Arrears and trying to Negotiate with Ulster Bank



## Expat31 (5 Jun 2013)

Hello,

Some background:
Lost job in 2008 and moved to UK to get work, was out of work on and off for about a year since then.
House in Ireland was rented out for short while but mostly empty, it’s rural location with no transport links so hard to rent.
House bought 2001 for €150K
Balance as of last month €130k
Payments made via monthly direct debit since 2001 roughly €85k
Have always keep bank in loop on situation and availed of 6 months payment break, 6 months interest only, 6 months reduced payments
Twice this year asked for some kind of break (paying rent in uk and covering Ireland is just too hard, constantly borrowing from family) and was offered reduced payment from 900 to 500 and told it was in place and when direct debits came through they were for the full amount so account rejected them so I’m now in arrears which isn’t fair when they confirmed break was in place, first time was told computer glitch and second time waiting on reason.
House has been on market since 2009 with very few viewings and 1 offer received at 60K which I want to accept but bank have advised that they have to approve this and have been chasing for answer and finding it hard to get one. I’ve done the best I can to keep up repayments and keep them informed and find I’m now in arrears because of their failings.
So I’m really here looking for advice and options please:
I’m hoping they will allow me to sell at 60k (hoping buyer doesn’t walk away waiting on their response) can I negotiate with them on the balance of 70K cause sale price plus payments made total nearly 145k
If they don’t allow me what happens if I just post them the keys
Any other suggestions?

Thanks for listening


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## cremeegg (5 Jun 2013)

First of all if they agreed to payments of €500 a month and then put through a dd for a greater amount this is a serious error on their part, and you should make a formal complaint, outline the problems this caused you and what it cost, unpaid item fees etc and of course embarrassment/reputational damage. This is a small issue in the scheme of things but don't let it go. 

Next make a complaint that they have failed to reply to your request to sell the house at the price you have been offered. 

Complaints are taken very seriously and UB seem to have made two errors in your case.

Next if they refuse to allow you to sell you need to make a judgement on what to do next. I suggest stop making any payments and tell them that as they are unwilling to allow you to resolve the matter you are concentrating on your career/life in the UK

This is a bit extreme but I think it is a threat worth making.

They may allow the sale for the €60k and then you are in negotiations over the remaining €70k. Where you would be in a strong position.

Good luck


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## Expat31 (6 Jun 2013)

Thanks Cremeeg

Having complied and kept up payments and always kept them in the loop i'm very disappointed with their behaviour and do feel like stopping payments and see what happens.  Through out all the process etc it's always been me chasing them and find their williness to help is very poor.  I don't blame them for the situation I'm in but they just don't try to help they just make it difficult


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## Bronte (6 Jun 2013)

Is it correct that you are based in the UK and that you are able to afford 500 Euro a month without rent. 

Forget about how the bank are treating you, they're all like that. 

Your mortgage is clearly unsustainable, based on the fact you have had interest only, payment breaks and reduced payments.  

So selling is what you need to do. I would focus on that only.  Chase them to agree to the sale for 60K.  Be very careful that you agree with the bank that the legal and auctioneering fees are paid out of the sale proceeds, (unless you can afford them).  You will probably have to sign a document stating that you are liable for the shortfall (which you are anyway) sign this and then you negotiate, after the sale, on this.  This negotiation will be either you want them to write it off, or that you pay it back at the same mortgage interest rate and term you are currently on, or that you threaten UK bankruptcy or that you just decide not to pay them anything if they won't negotiate.  If you can afford to pay it then you should pay it, if you cannot afford it, have no assets, and  a low income they cannot get much out of you.  They may just ignore the shortfall and never chase you, depends on your circumstances - and yes banks are ignoring shortfalls in certain situations.


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## Expat31 (6 Jun 2013)

Hi Bronte,
Yes, I'm UK based, I moved here for work when I lost my job in 2008.
It's a struggle to meet with 500 as well as paying the bills here and have gone through this with them couple of times filling in their budget forms.  They have said a couple of times that I've used all the breaks available and I've said is it not better you get some money than none.  Great advise on selling regarding legal and auctioneering fees, I just assumed I'd have to cover that.  They have said if I sell at a loss they'll leave the balance on mortgage rate but it's the amount per month that I can't meet.  They said they'd send me out some offers but am still waiting.
I'm not going to send cheque over for July and see what happens as I'm tired of chasing them and the stress of it all and it's got me no where.


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## Bronte (6 Jun 2013)

Sadly it is true that by you not paying July you are more likely to get them to actually deal with you, so I think it's a good strategy.  It seems to me that the banks policy is that if there is any money coming in at all they will just long finger actually dealing with the issue. 

Can you afford yourself the auctioneering and solicitor fees? How much can you afford to pay monthly? How much would the balance owing after the sale cost you at the current mortgage rate?

Do you have a large UK income, are you living a reasonable lifestyle? Are you eligible for UK bankruptcy, or would it affect your line of work etc.


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## Expat31 (6 Jun 2013)

Hi Bronte, to be honest no, it's 900 plus vat for auctioneer and about 1200 plus vat for solicitor, haven't figured out how to pay it yet.  If sold for 60K there would be 70K left and 18 years left on mortgage term.  if i'm honest with myself i could only afford 2-300 a month.  I have a good income here meaning I can pay all the bills etc but when i'm paying out for ireland I struggle as it's takes away any disposable income, so i've no savings, still have cc debt from ireland which i've ignored so that mortgage was paid, and have family loans that need to be repaid at some stage and won't borrow anymore from family as it's not fair. I don't know how uk bankruptcy works but don't think it would be an option i'd like to go down.


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## munchy (6 Jun 2013)

Expat31, you are very well placed for immediate bankruptcy as you are already resident of the UK and seemingly living a rather frugal existence anyway. You will be free of all the debt within 12 months


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## Expat31 (6 Jun 2013)

I didn't know u could do that with debt in another country. Without irish debt I've no problem with money. Going bankrupt would that affect future finances in uk? What would happen if I posted keys of house to bank?


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## Kine (6 Jun 2013)

The Bank would reposses the house, sell it and get a judgement mortgage against you for the outstanding balance. 

See here for discussion of reprcussions of this strategy: http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=177438

If you are settled in teh UK and have no issues with 12 years of not really being able to live in Ireland, I would probably (seek legal advice!) choose the Judgement Mortgage in Ireland over UK bankruptcy as this will _probably_ have fewer reprocussions for you in the UK. 

But seek advice!


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## munchy (6 Jun 2013)

There is a sub forum with lots of threads on UK bankruptcy  which is well worth reading. Many people are opting for this because its much cheaper and quicker in UK than in Ireland. 
I understand that all your accounts will be frozen but Barclays allow customers to have a normal account and be bankrupt so be sure to open an account with them in case. Then,  you are allowed to work full time and all reasonable expenses are allowed  for daily living, but any excess / profit is handed back to the receiver to be paid to your creditors - for 12 months (but if you are earning a lot then this can become 3 years) The trick is to earn enough to stay under the radar - not sure what that amount is - the average salary in the UK is 26k sterling so I guess something like that would be fine. Read the threads in the link above and all is explained there. That willl also discharge your debts in the UK, credit cards and even revenue debt (although revenue can still prosecute I think)


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## Expat31 (6 Jun 2013)

Kine and Munchy, thank you both, will have a read of them both


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