# Advice on renovating protected structure



## MrsH (17 Feb 2011)

Hi, 

I was hoping someone would be able to give me some advice as my husband and I are hopelessly confused!

We've put a holding deposit down on our dream house which we've subsequently found out is a protected structure.  The house needs complete renovation, it's a late 1800s structure and has no central heating etc, needs damp proofing, it also has no bathrooms upstairs and the bathroom and toilet downstairs need to be knocked through and removed so that we can put in a kitchen.  

We are on a very tight budget and bought the house on the understanding that we wouldn't need an architect for this, we had our friend who's an established builder come round and he gave us a 50-70K budget to do the whole job, and 70K is the maximum we can afford.

Now that we've found out it's a protected structure we obviously have to get planning permission and it looks like we need an architect as well - is this correct?  We don't need any design advice as we know exactly what we want to do, we just need someone to draw up plans for us as the house is and then tender plans for how we want the house to be - I'm presuming these are then the same plans that can be sent with the planning application.

We keep on getting quotes for around the 4/5K mark from architects etc or architect and structural engineer teams to draw up plans to give to the council and submit the application etc which basically takes the project out of our budget and means we might have to walk away which would be heartbreaking.

So my questions are:
[*]Do we have to have an architect involved for a planning application for a protected structure?

[*]Can we just get an engineer to draw up plans for us and then submit the planning application ourselves? Would this be cheaper?  

[*]All we need is someone to draw up plans for the house as is and plans for the house as we want it (with no input from them), I feel like this shouldn't cost very much but maybe I'm wrong?  Does anyone have an idea of how much it should cost for someone to do this?

[*]Will the council refuse the application for a protected structure if it's just the homeowner submitting it?

Sorry for the very long email!  We're getting completely muddled by all the different things everyone is telling us!  Maybe we're in over our heads.

Thanks for any advice.


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## picorette (17 Feb 2011)

Anybody can submit a planning application, but particularly in the case of a protected structure, whoever does, needs to show a knowledge of older buildings and appreciation of how and which elements will be preserved of the historic building.

It is therefore advisable to use somebody with experience of submitting and successfully securing planning permissions for protected structures, and the accompanying material such as conservation reports, whether that be an Architect or Engineer.


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## MrsH (17 Feb 2011)

OK great, thanks for your help picorette.


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## OneAndOnly (17 Feb 2011)

You don't mention the size but even a tiny 1800s protected house will swallow your 70k budget in a heartbeat!
I bought a 1938 semi in Dublin last Oct that I've completely renovated and extended - final bill will hit 160k....

Unless you are prepared to draw the works out over time (build as you earn) or have family/friends in the building trade who can do you great deals - I'd walk away now.


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## onq (17 Feb 2011)

MrsH said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was hoping someone would be able to give me some advice as my husband and I are hopelessly confused!
> 
> ...



This is the riskiest kind of project.
If you cannot even afford €4K in fees, just walk away.
You wouldn't even see that go if you had to completely renew joist ends in the roof.
With the greatest of respect [and I know you are in love with this house] you look like you are  already in wayyy over your heads.

I mean this seriously, you stand to get fleeced the way you are going about this:

- led and said by builder - no professional advice
- builders estimate only, no drawings or specification, no schedule or scope of works
- evidence of damp, intention to undertake structural works and install services to a protected structure with no heating system.

That's a minefield.

For what its worth I achieved a permission for a house on Palmerston Road a few years back.
I had to supply 1:10 detailed sections - normal planning sections are 1:100.
That was to show the detail of the mouldings I had proposed.

A huge amount of work surveying, photographing, composing method statements, you name it.
And at the end of the day the planner IMO seriously overreached herself when she requested an accredited or acknowledged conservation architect.

I could have cited the listed terrace I had done opposite Government Buildings, but it was a Condition wording so I handed over to Buchan Kane and Foley.
They were one of the few conservation accredited architects who were willing and available to look at taking it over after I achieved planning.

Nowadays you have what seem to be "baby conservation architects" out there.
They seem to have done a course through the RIAI to achieve a nominal accreditation.
I think you'd want to check that anyone you appoint has some experience in this discipline.

As for your budget:
I'd have expected you to pay at least ten grand in fees even if the work only comes in at €100,000.
I am surprised if your friendly builder's ball-park price - someone, you or a subbie - will suffer.
Go nowhere with this until you have it properly costed, which is more fees, of course.

This is not your typical self build.
The fact you did not know it was listed before mentally committing to it gives some cause for concern.
If the builder is a cowboy - and lets face it he's already assuring you re a cost he cannot know definitively yet - then you'll walk into trouble.

Of course, my comments may all turn out to be wrong,.
I hope they do if you proceed - but based on my experience of these jobs, that's highly unlikely.
It would allow others to comment competently if you posted a bit more informatiion about the dwelling - like the area. 

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon   as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be   taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in   Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at   hand.


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## onq (17 Feb 2011)

OneAndOnly said:


> You don't mention the size but even a tiny 1800s protected house will swallow your 70k budget in a heartbeat!
> I bought a 1938 semi in Dublin last Oct that I've completely renovated and extended - final bill will hit 160k....
> 
> Unless you are prepared to draw the works out over time (build as you earn) or have family/friends in the building trade who can do you great deals - I'd walk away now.



(chuckle)

You got in before me Oneandonly, but yes, that's the kind of budget I would have expected.

I expect the OP's is a larger house with some typical issues:


window replacement
chimney repointing
all new services and heating
parapet and valley leaks
rising damp
roof and floor timber rot
settlement at corners
bay window
drainage
This could exceed €250,000 even in this climate.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon   as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be   taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in   Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at   hand.


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## MrsH (17 Feb 2011)

Wrote a big long reply and it just deleted itself - aaaargh!

Anyway, here goes again.

So thanks very much for these detailed responses.  I'm beginning to think you guys are right that we may be in well over our heads.  

Firstly, just to clear up a couple of things:
We are not going to start work on this project until we have professional plans drawn up by an architect or structural engineer, then we will use these plans to get quotes from at least three builders with references who give us written quotes with every detail costed and then, once we've chosen the builder, we will get a full schedule with a breakdown of the timeline for every detail.  

The costing we've had was from an experienced contractor who happens to be a very close friend coming round with us on one of our viewings and giving us his professional estimation as a ballpark so that we could figure out whether it was remotely viable to put an offer in.  He was just giving us his professional opinion rather than assuring us of the how much it would definitely cost. Incidentally, we've had another friend come round who is also in the trade and agreed with the estimation he gave us (these two friends don't know each other)......I'm willing to accept they may both be wrong of course but just giving you all the info 

We are not looking to do this house to a high spec, we are looking to make it comfortable so that we can just move in and then make it beautiful over the years as we live there.  Making it comfortable for us means spending money on good insulation levels, a good heating system, replumbing, rewiring, sorting out the damp, replacing windows, the guttering on one side of the roof needs to be replaced and some slates replaced, there is some wet rot (not dry though) and so beams will have to be replaced, and doing some small structural things, knocking through two rooms and moving two small walls, putting up one wall.  Other than this, we will be making sure there are floors everywhere, the walls are plastered and painted and then put in cheap kitchens and bathrooms from Ikea or similar. Over time, we can make the finishes beautiful...

Regarding the 4K for the drawings we need, I think the main point is that it seems like a lot of money for what we need.  All we want are drawings for the house as is and drawings for how we want it to change according to our specification, we do not need design input.  It just seems quite steep to pay that amount for the work needed on what is not a huge house (1300 sq feet).....perhaps I am naive though and this is just how much it costs.   

We are not planning on having an architect oversee the project, i will project manage it.  Will the conservation dept insist that an architect oversees it?

ONQ:  You say "I'd have expected you to pay at least ten grand in fees even if the work only comes in at €100,000."  

What do you mean by this?  Fees for what exactly?  If we agree a fee beforehand for drawing up the plans and I am overseeing the project, what are the fees for?

Many thanks again for all advice and apologies if I am saying anything stupid.  I just really want to make sure we can't do this before we walk away as we've been looking for so long and it's such a wonderful house!

The house, by the way, is in Harold's Cross and is 1300 square feet.

Couple more bits of info, we do have an extra 20K contingency that we can dip into in complete emergency but we really want to try and leave that alone if possible.  Also, we do have friends and family in the plumbing, building and electrician trades.  We may go for someone we don't know as the main contractor though.

Thanks again in advance.


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## Docarch (17 Feb 2011)

MrsH said:


> Will the conservation dept insist that an architect oversees it?


 
If the house is in Harold's Cross, then that would be Dublin City Council area? Dublin City Council would often condition, as part of planning, that an architect (or other professional) experienced in conservation be retained to oversee the work during construction. 

You do not necessarily need a 'conservation architcet' (as listed by the RIAI) you simply need an architect experienced in conservation, as with any planning application for a protected structure, you need to submit an 'Architectural Impact Assessment'. This is _basically _what ONQ is stating above. 

There are lots of (domestic) protected structures all round Rathmines and Rathgar - if you spend a little time looking through the planning serach facility on the Dublin City Council website, you will be able to get and idea/see examples of the type of information required to be submited. 

For preparing and submitting a planning application on a protected sturcture, E4 to E5k is probably around the right mark for the work involved.


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## MrsH (17 Feb 2011)

That's really helpful Docarch, thanks very much.  Seems like that's just how much it costs then!  Will have a look through the planning search facility as you suggest.

Many thanks again.


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## Docarch (17 Feb 2011)

Just to add. _If _you were *not* knocking any walls, you could apply for a Section 57 Declaration - (cannot post link as I have do not yet have 15 posts!) - the Council would come and inspect the house and then tell you what you can do without planning permission. Usually they will allow a certain amount of refurbishment of existing structures without planning permission be required. 

However, removing (internal) walls usually requires planning permission. 

A quick call to the conservation section of Dublin City Council may be no harm as they may give you some more guidance on the way forward.


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## MrsH (17 Feb 2011)

I've already been in touch with them actually and we do definitely need to get planning permission.  Unfortunately, the layout downstairs is such that we couldn't live in it without knocking through a couple of the walls so we don't really have a choice.
Thanks for the tip though.


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## Docarch (17 Feb 2011)

No problem.

Just checked condition on a planning application I did for a protected structure in Dublin City Council area (a very small job where we were making a new opening in the back wall of the house) and as part of the planning permission, one condition it states:

_The works hereby approved shall be carried out under the professional supervision on-site of an architect or expert with specialised conservation expertise, in accordance with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government Conservation Guidelines (No. 9) and in accordance with Best Conservation Practice. Reason: To ensure that the integrity of this protected structure is maintained and that all works are carried out in accordance with best conservation practice. _


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## onq (18 Feb 2011)

MrsH said:


> Wrote a big long reply and it just deleted itself - aaaargh!
> 
> ONQ:  You say "I'd have expected you to pay at least ten grand in fees even if the work only comes in at €100,000."
> 
> What do you mean by this?  Fees for what exactly?  If we agree a fee beforehand for drawing up the plans and I am overseeing the project, what are the fees for?



What are architects fees for?
They are for the services provided.

(I too had a long reply written and I decided against it. Then I wrote this long reply instead. Neither cost you a penny )

If you're wondering what services you might be paying for, that's another story and probably points to your lack of familiarity with the amount of work done during a design process. The act of drawing the final incarnation of a complex set of large scale drawings for planning could be a week. The survey time needed to produce a detailed set could be two days. The design time could be a month or more. Say two months.

The figure of €10K was a ball park based on my time on another job, the endless hourse spent surveying, negotiating with the local authority, interpreting their wishes for the client in terms of what we could get away with, the refinement of my own design wishes to reach a compromise agreeable to all that ticked all the boxes.

Half of this in a well run sole tradership will be overheads. It may be more or less on a larger practice. So the person makes €5K. Are you implying that's excessive for the amount of time involved? I was quoting a tight fee. Anyone doing a job that size for much less is not doing the necessary work and you will be lucky to get permission.

--------------

There will be further services required, including inspection, direction and taking record photographs on site - range of fees from €2K [perfectly smooth job - never happens] to another €10K [normal run of the mill problems and averting disasters] and more [you find a well in the basement and realise where all the damp is coming from]. The danger is that a builder may take short cuts and cover them up. The architects job is to ensure he doesn't, that he deals with them.

The experienced architect brings a lot of expertise to the table. Builders errors can include for example, 

- the filling of holes in walls with rammed paper or rubbish instead of properly bonded brickwork
- the use of the wrong mortar [cement instead of lime]
- the use of the wrong kind of insulation
- the use of too much insulation
- the use of the wrong principles for insulating older properties
- the failure to anticipate hidden problems, schedule the necessary work to remedy them and thereby incur extras

So you're not just paying for "a set of drawings", you are getting someone who is bringin a wealth of experience and competence to the table and you're paying for someone exposing themselves to vicarious liability if something goes wrong and they are held accountable.

-------------------------

Put is like this, the mark up on a new german car sitting in a showrooms is circa €10K, yet you'll pay this if you want the car.
What are you paying for?
- a vehicle that was designed by someone else to a market survey's requirements.
- the overheads, the salesmens salaries, the directors bonuses, the businessses profits.

Let's say that instead you're cuter and you decide to pay 10K for a second hand car, what are you paying for?
- other people's mistakes, other people's missed services and taking the risk it will last you another few thousand miles.

-------------------------

Yet with this house project you're engaging people to perform new work, to your specifications that you can inspect any time so you know what you're getting, along with set of photos so you can see what you missed, being regularly inspected by someone who has foreseen most of the problems and who brings years of competence and experience to the table to make your dreams reality.

That's what you're paying for.

You can pay less, sometimes far less, but remember - you get what you pay for.


FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon    as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be    taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in    Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at    hand.


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## MrsH (23 Feb 2011)

Thanks very much for the detailed advice.


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## onq (24 Feb 2011)

You're welcome.

Tell us how you get on.

ONQ.

  [broken link removed]

  All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied           upon    as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal       action     be    taken.
  Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise   in            Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the       matters    at     hand.


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