# Bank refuse to release charge on Life Policy: near 8 times amount outstanding loan.l



## mercman (13 Mar 2011)

Took out sterling loan with Bank in 1998. Gave Life Assurance Policy as  security. Each time Bank contacted me, the annual repayment and in some  cases more than what was due was made. Bank ceased making contact in  2005 and no further payments were made, although interest was ceased to  be charged. 

To date (2011) I have never received a statement or  account number regarding this loan despite requesting same in writing  hundreds of times. They sent me a fax in 2007 stating a balance which  was incorrect by thousands. I never received any reply. At this stage I  have given up writing to the said Bank, but moreover they refuse to  release the charge on the Life Assurance Policy, which is near 8 times  of amount of outstanding loan.

Any ideas of what should be done  next as the Bank continually refuse to acknowledge their mistakes or  send me a correct statement. I need the Life Policy as I have MS and it  is not that easy to get a new Policy.


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## Bronte (14 Mar 2011)

A couple of things are not clear.  Firstly don't understand how a life insurance policy is security.  

You borrowed some money, you made some repayments, some of the repayments were higher than they should have been so you overpaid sometimes? or the bank took more than they should have?  How were the repayments made?  By lodgements or direct debit?  Just trying to figure out how the payments were incorrect.  

What exactly happened in 2005?  Did you default ?  Is that why the bank stopped contact with you.  Did they freeze the interest and not add any more to the debt?

If the bank is not communicating with you then you should go to the ombudsman.  

Have you tried a broker to get another life insurance policy?


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## mercman (14 Mar 2011)

Hi Bronte. Re the Life Assurance Policy, this is what the Bank asked for as security. I made larger repayments as I have always had a dislike to lending. Repayments were made by cheque and they were incorrect as the only time a balance was sent to me, it was incorrect by thousands.

In 2005, when I queried the matters, a meeting was called. They realised at this time of the mistake they had made. I told the Bank than rather making repayments based on a telephone call, I required to have statements, (which at the time was the legal requirement). A statement had to be issued once a year for each and every Bank Account.

As the loan was reducing, the Interest was frozen. Basically the loan was worked on a payment by phone call system. I moved offices and as the account was not day to day, the file got shoved into a bottom drawer.

Sure the easiest thing would be to stop the payments on the Life Policy, but yes I have tried a Broker for a quote but the rates are off the wall. The original Policy was taken out before I became ill and is much cheaper than current quotes.


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## wbbs (14 Mar 2011)

As you probably already know someone with MS will not get another life policy, the bank will not release the policy until the loan it secured is cleared.   Life policies were regularly taken as security by banks, in fact in the old days bank managers often held agencies with insurance companies and organised them for the customers, many yrs ago before banks had their own insurance companies or became tied agents of them.

OP, either you will have to come to some arrangement with the  bank to clear the loan or you will have to leave things as they are.   Worst case scenario and anything happens to you the bank will just take what the are owed from the proceeds of the insurance policy and the balance will go to your estate so you are no worse off really by them having it.  I am presuming it is a life only policy and does not have serious illness cover in it.


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## Bronte (14 Mar 2011)

Hi Mercman I'm still lost on this. 

You had a loan, you made repayments by cheque, the bank sent you a statement showing how much you still owed but this was incorrect because they had not credited your account with all your payments?

Then instead of paying by cheque you used to telephone the bank and make the payment that way?

Why was the interest frozen?  Are you still making payments?

Back to the life insurance policy, if you gave this as security and you still owe the money then the bank are correct not to give you back the security until you have paid back the loan.  Even if they made a mistake on the statements this can be rectified by the bank issuing you a new corrected statement.   Presumable as previous poster stated if you pay back the loan they will release the policy.

Do you want to tell us why you want the policy so we can try and think up a solution on that instead?


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## mercman (14 Mar 2011)

No you have it incorrect. Had a loan, never advised of the Account number.  Manager used to contact me by phone and I sent a cheque to the Bank. He was promoted and transferred and another person phoned me. Requested Statement but still sent cheques. Then received amount outstanding by fax which was incorrect. Called to a meeting with previous Manager. They apologised for their errors, but was told at this time that the errors would be rectified. Still no Statement received to this date. 

The law clearly states that account holders must be forwarded a statement at least once a year. Not bad that after 13 years still no statement or Account Number  received. 

I simply want the Policy back as I have been paying for this for 23 years. Yet again another case where a Bank requires the customer to pay for their mistakes. The easiest thing is to simply stop paying into the Policy or cancelling same, but I am unable to get a New Policy


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## wbbs (14 Mar 2011)

Do not stop paying the policy, you will not lose out, the bank will simply take what is owed to them if there is a claim on the policy.  What you need to sort out is what you owe them if there is some confusion regarding what has or has not been paid.


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## Mpsox (14 Mar 2011)

Bit confused here as I'm not clear if the loan is still outstanding or if it has been overpaid or what. I also can't understand if you were never advised of the account number, how you made payments against it. I presume you were simply sending the cheque to the bank and believing they were lodging it against your loan, but you have nothing to say that was actually the case. 

Regardless, the process you now need to follow is quite simple. You need to ask the bank for a copy of their customer complaints procedures and then raise a complaint. Depending on the response you get from that (and I have a feeling it will take some time given the complexities of the issue) you may then have to complain to the Ombudsman, but the latter will not normally entertain a complaint until you have gone through the banks own complaint procedures

As part of your complaint, you should ask the bank to complete a trace on where the cheques you lodged were actually paid into. Banks are obliged to hold a copy of all cheques for at least 6 years, and most banks go back further then that, for example, UB go back to around 2001 at least and AIB I believe go back to around '97-98 or thereabouts


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## ardmacha (14 Mar 2011)

You could also try writing citing the Data Protection act asking for details of all account numbers, and details that the bank holds for you, together with details of any security held and the terms on which that is held. They'll have to give you a balance and you can fight that.


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## mercman (23 Mar 2011)

Update -- Obviously some person from the Bank concerned has been reading this post and yesterday received a roll over sheet for the loan. Still No account number specified. I contacted the department and the person dealing with this advised that he was handed a small file on the matter. We are both in agreement that the Bank will take their files out of storage and I will take mine from storage and then the two will be examined. 

Then nobody can state that I told mistruths or lies etc. I did mention the fact that when the loan was originally taken out, the law was account holders had to be sent a statement once a year etc.

Over ten years to receive a statement or an account number. I did mention that I would want a Final Letter of Response but in essence I am not prepared to wai another 10 years. What a joke -- instead it is just not funny.


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## Laramie (23 Mar 2011)

mercman said:


> Took out sterling loan with Bank in 1998. Gave Life Assurance Policy as security. Each time Bank contacted me, the *annual repayment* and in some cases more than what was due was made.


 
Are you saying that you only had to make one repayment per annum off your loan?


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## mercman (23 Mar 2011)

Laramie said:


> Are you saying that you only had to make one repayment per annum off your loan?



yes


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## SlugBreath (24 Mar 2011)

mercman said:


> yes


 
So, if you were required to make one repayment per year why did you stop making this payment in 2005?

Simple maths. You get a loan of let's say £20k. You make 7 yearly repayments of £1k. You don't need an annual statement to let you know that you still owe £13k plus interest.


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## Bronte (24 Mar 2011)

But Slugbreath wouldn't you want at least an annual statement of account to show you the balance owing and how much interest you have paid?

What is a roll over sheet for a loan.

In relation to account numbers.  If you are given a loan the money has to come from somewhere and go somewhere.  Was the money given in cheque or lodged to an account?  If a cheque was written in the banks accounts it would come from one of their accounts but have to have a corresponding credit balance somewhere it cannot just sit in thin air.


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## mercman (24 Mar 2011)

SlugBreath said:


> So, if you were required to make one repayment per year why did you stop making this payment in 2005?



Because very simply that I received no phone call in relation to the required payment. The Bank then called a meeting and admitted that statements and account numbers should have been sent and it was completely their fault.


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## SlugBreath (24 Mar 2011)

mercman said:


> Because very simply that I received no phone call in relation to the required payment.


 
This was a Sterling Loan given from an Irish Euro based bank? How was it paid over to you?  

Was it a "fingers" type loan arranged over a long lunch or game of golf?  Did you sign documentation?

When it came for you to hand over your Life Policy how was this done?  There are lots of lazy bankers who believe that "Possession is nine tenths of the Law". What I mean by this is that they ask you for your life policy and you drop/post it, in to the bank. They take possession of a piece of paper in this case the policy document. However they never *formally* take it as security.  Big difference.  What did they do?

Finally. The onus was on you to pay back the loan. Waiting for a reminder phone call to make a repayment is a pathetic excuse by you for not making a repayment.


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## TrundleAlong (24 Mar 2011)

mercman said:


> To date (2011) I have never received a statement or account number regarding this loan despite requesting same in writing hundreds of times.


 
Why have you bothered to write "hundreds of times". Have you ever called in to see them or speak to someone?


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## mercman (24 Mar 2011)

SlugBreath said:


> Finally. The onus was on you to pay back the loan. Waiting for a reminder phone call to make a repayment is a pathetic excuse by you for not making a repayment.



That is incorrect. It is essential and issued by the Banking Act, that for all  acccounts including  Loans to be provided and a statement issued once a year to an Account Holder. In this case neither of these has happened. I have never distracted from my responsibilities. The only time when I was sent a balance it was incorrect.

In relation to your portrayal of a 'Fingers' type scenario, I do not conduct my affairs in this manner and would not under any circumstances. In the same manner I have always chosen never to socialise with a Banker. Never have done or never will do.

The Life Policy is charged to the Bank.

For you to apportion all the blame to me is so wrong and very much a Banker's approach to a problem caused by a Bank. I will repay the Loan, but only when all the correct information is provided back to me. If I was some type of a chancer as you have intimated, I would not have repaid over 70% of the loan already. If Banks are willing now to write off hundreds of millions of dodgy loans applicable to dodgy customers, then I will perform but only when the Book chooses to act inccordance with the law.


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## mercman (24 Mar 2011)

TrundleAlong said:


> Have you ever called in to see them or speak to someone?



Yes, and I was told that the person dealing with the matter was too busy. I contacted HO who promised to deal with the matter, but guess what heard nothing.


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## TrundleAlong (25 Mar 2011)

mercman said:


> Yes, and I was told that the person dealing with the matter was too busy.


 
I would suggest that you make an appointment then rather than just dropping in off the street.

I could never imagine myself sending a cheque for €x amount of Euro in an envelope to a bank and saying "please lodge this in to my loan account". Did you even get a receipt?  If not, how do you know it reached it's correct destination?


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## mercman (25 Mar 2011)

TrundleAlong said:


> I would suggest that you make an appointment then rather than just dropping in off the street.



The person concerned was fully aware that I would be calling in at some time that day. When the cheques were sent the Bank confirmed receipt and I was able to track same from my own statement.


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## SlurrySlump (25 Mar 2011)

mercman said:


> The person concerned was fully aware that I would be calling in at some time that day. When the cheques were sent the Bank confirmed receipt and I was able to track same from my own statement.


In fairness mercman "calling in at some point during the day" is not the same as making an appointment.

So you have receipts and a record from your own current account. So you know who much you sent them and you know how much the original loan was. So you can then calculate how much of the loan is outstanding?

You say that you paid 70% off the loan or thereabouts. Why did you not continue to send an annual cheque as you had done in the past?  You could have kept all the receipts and current account statements and when you calculated that the loan was cleared you could have presented your documentation and asked for your policy to be released.


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## SlurrySlump (25 Mar 2011)

The following questions are still not clear.

Was this a Sterling Loan issued by a bank in the Republic?
How did you get the loan passed to you?  In Sterling? In Euro? To a current account?
Were you required to pay back the loan in Sterling or in Euro?

If the loan was in Sterling and you posted them a Euro cheque I assume that they did the currency conversion in the branch?  Was this where the confusion is? Did you get a receipt showing currency conversion?


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## Grizzly (25 Mar 2011)

mercman said:


> .
> 
> As the loan was reducing, the Interest was frozen.


 
What sort of bank does this?  This looks like it was a bad debt with no hope of recovery. So the loan was underlined....frozen.

I am sure that back in 1998 when the loan was issued there was plenty of documentation, including a repayment schedule set up. I am sure that statements were also issued. If it was a Sterling loan, maybe they were issued to A UK address.

The only time we ever phoned people back in my banking days was when they weren't making their re-payments and it was turning in to or had become a bad debt.

The fact that you haven't made a specific appointment to speak to someone in all these years tells me that you are afraid to do so.

Make an appointment today and sort it out.


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## johnny1234 (25 Mar 2011)

Which Bank is this


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## mercman (25 Mar 2011)

SlurrySlump said:


> In fairness mercman "calling in at some point  during the day" is not the same as making an appointment.



The particular branch was around 100 miles away from my  home. When advised 'call in anytime in the morning' which I did and the  circumstances are as they happened.

I have copies of all the  cheques sent as well. The problem started when they sent me a figure  quoting an incorrect balance, which I queried and they have now gone to  ground.

This was / is a sterling loan issued from a Bank in the Republic. Repayment has always been made in sterling.


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## mercman (25 Mar 2011)

Grizzly said:


> The only time we ever phoned people back in my banking days was when they weren't making their re-payments and it was turning in to or had become a bad debt.



And its because of Banks that we are all in the mess we're in. Fact is I want my Life Policy back free of charge. And to counter comment, I have never ever missed a loan repayment and always conduct my affairs in a business like and professional manner.


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## BOXtheFOX (25 Mar 2011)

mercman said:


> The Life Policy is charged to the Bank.


When a life policy is charged to a bank, documentation is completed. This usually states that the policy is held as security for this loan as well as past and future loans. 

On another thread you gave this advice to a person 
_"*Surely these conditions were in the contract and terms which your Solicitor should have pointed out. Otherwise Caveat Emptor." *_

I think that when you gave your Life Policy as security you would have been made aware of the Terms and Conditions in doing so. There is not much you can do about this other than make a specific appointment for a specific time with a specific person and get the matter sorted.  Caveat Emptor


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## WaterWater (25 Mar 2011)

mercman said:


> I moved offices and as the account was not day to day, the file got shoved into a bottom drawer.


 
Sounds like "The dog ate my homework, Sir"


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## mercman (26 Mar 2011)

Grizzly said:


> The only time we ever phoned people back in my banking days was when they weren't making their re-payments and it was turning in to or had become a bad debt.



This just shows the superiority complex the Bankers of old used to adhere to. You forgot about the times when Bank Managers longed for a game of Golf or at Xmas time reminded their customers of their love of Brandy.

Your comments are not helpful and in fact downright rude and crude. Old Bankers and New old bankers are a thundering disgrace. Can't you see this or are you just to superior ?


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## ajapale (26 Mar 2011)

Closed temporary basis for consideration by mods.

Off topic posts will be deleted.

Please keep to the facts and refrain from generalised sweeping discussion.

aj
moderator.


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## ajapale (21 Apr 2011)

ajapale said:


> Please keep to the facts and refrain from generalised sweeping discussion



Thread reopened.

aj


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## mercman (22 Apr 2011)

Well the last couple of weeks much has happened. Obviously somebody that knows the situation reads AAM. I received a rollover statement charging interest from their HO. I contacted the person now in charge of the matter and explained the situation. Frankly he did not believe me, so I suggested that I copy him with the hundreds of faxes and correspondence I had already sent. 

On following up, he was unable to offer comment but asked me to make contact with my RM. This I have tried -- 61 times -- and have left a number of messages on his voice mail, but a return call has not been returned.

So to those who think I am chancing my arm -- I am not. I simply want a accurate statement for the account with the correct balance, not the incorrect one. I do not think it is to much to ask.


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## Tintagel (23 Apr 2011)

Sounds like Ulster Bank to me.  My local manager has twice promised to close off my "holding accounts" that I apparently need every time I open a fixed term deposit account and transfer the few pence in interest earned in to my Ulster Bank current account. He also promised to send me closeing statements. To date nothing has happened.


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## Bronte (26 Apr 2011)

mercman said:


> 1. I received a rollover statement charging interest from their HO.
> 
> 2. I contacted the person now in charge of the matter and explained the situation.
> 
> ...


 
1. What is a rollover statement, and it it incorrect?

2. If this new person is in charge of the matter why did he tell you to contact RM? Also why didn't he deal with the matter for you.

3. What is RM?

4. How did you try to contact him othere than phone calls. No one would ring someone 61 times, after 3 failed attempts you go higher up in writing. 

In relation to one of the Irish banks, they lose registered letters and ignore customers. This I can confirm as I have a case with the ombudsman on it.


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## mercman (26 Apr 2011)

Bronte, 

To answer your questions:

1. It is a statement the Bank have raised in this case for no apparant reason and yes it is incorrect..

2. He said he wasn't able to deal with the matter before I sent him a copy of the file and after.

3. A RM is a relationship manager.

4. I haven't tried any other way to contact him other than phone calls and voice mails. What is the point. If the Bank refused to act on the hundreds pieces of correspondence what was/is the point in writing further. I see no reason for going higher at this point in time, which could have effect on my normal banking arrangements with the Bank in question.

In this case the Bank have never denied receiving my correspondence but have acted as if I am some kind of a toon. In reality it simply does not pay to be honest and truthful when it comes to dealing with Banks.


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## Bronte (26 Apr 2011)

mercman said:


> 2. He said he wasn't able to deal with the matter before I sent him a copy of the file and after.
> 
> 
> 4. I haven't tried any other way to contact him other than phone calls and voice mails. What is the point. .


 
In relation to 2 I don't understand what you are saying.  Did you give him a copy of the file?  Why is he not able to deal with it?

4.  The point of all this I thought was for you to get the situation sorted.  If you don't correspond in writing you are wasting your time.  Make 61 phone calls is the wrong way to go about it.


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