# Saddled with Joint Mortgage in Negative Equit



## selenak (19 Aug 2010)

*Age:*
29
*Spouse’s/Partner's age:*
Ex - 27

*Annual gross income from employment or profession:*
E45,000
*Annual gross income spouse:*
Ex - unemployed

*Type of employment:*
Private sector

*Expenditure pattern:*
Save €300/month

*Rough estimate of value of home*
E180,000
*Mortgage on home*
E300,000 -been paying mortgage for three years now
*Mortgage provider:*
PTSB
*Type of mortgage: Tracker, interest only, fixed rate*
Tracker
*Interest rate*
ECB + 2.25%

*Other borrowings – car loans/personal loans etc*
None

*Do you pay off your full credit card balance each month?*
No

*Savings and investments:*
E60,000 savings. Shares valued at approx 10K
*Do you have a pension scheme?*
Yes, valued at 6-7K.

*Do you own any investment or other property?*
No

*Ages of children:*
None.

*Life insurance:*
No.

*What specific question do you have or what issues are of concern to you?*
Bought property in Co Meath with ex-partner in 2007. 100% mortgage.
Relationship has broken down. 
She has left with our cat & contributes nothing towards the mortgage. 
I realise it is her responsibility to do so, but I cannot make her pay much as I would like to. 
I cannot sleep at night with worry over how much money I owe for a property that has devalued so much.
Ideally I would like to use some savings to offset the negative equity but I feel I would be leaving myself wide open if she comes back with a claim to the property.
I cannot see the bank giving me a mortgage of nearly 7 times my salary to buy her out.
What should I do?


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## Mrs Vimes (19 Aug 2010)

You are currently in negative equity of about 120,000.  You and your ex are both responsible for all of this, but having split up you want to each be responsible for half (which you could pay off with your savings).  I would certainly not pay off any negative equity while it is jointly another person's.  Have you approached your bank to see whether they will allow you (with her consent of course) to put the house (and mortgage) into your name solely? Have you considered seeing if the bank will let you sell the house and get 2 separate loans for the negative equity.  Would she be amenable to this if you agreed to shoulder more than half the debt? It would at least allow you to move on.
I would start by sending her a letter reminding her that she is responsible for the mortgage just as much as you are and demanding that she let you know what she intends to do within a certain time-frame.
Sybil


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## selenak (19 Aug 2010)

I don't think selling is an option.  I would certainly consider it & take the hit in order to move on with my life, but realistically I highly doubt any bank will give her a 60K loan, considering she is unemployed without any savings, and the loan is to cover negative equity.
The only avenue I can see is to try & get the deeds put solely in my neme - even if the mortgage has to stay in both.
I could then pay off a lump sum & have a more manageable monthly repayment to pay by myself.
If anybody has any other ideas I would be very appreciative.


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## goingforgold (19 Aug 2010)

I think these situations are becoming more and more commonplace. I think you really need to talk to a decent solicitor who will advise you on how to proceed. She has totally abandoned her responsibilities and has left you take all the stress and strain while she still owns half the house. Surely a good solicitor could sort this situation out ASAP. 

As for you, you have done very well to save 70K in total. That is a substantial amount of money which will reduce your mortgage significantly and give you a manageable monthly repayment should you get the house in your own name.

Actually probably best to contact her in writing first to see what response if any you get, so that you will have a substantial starting point when consulting legal advice.

Best of luck.


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## selenak (19 Aug 2010)

Thanks guys,

I suppose I know what I have to do. I know Ill need to see a solicitor, I just hate the thoughts of it. TBH the ex has pretty much disappeared, havent a breeze where she is now. I've no address or anything. 
I've tried to explain the situation to the bank, but once the mortgage is being paid in full & on time (which it is) they dont really care who is paying it.
The last thing I want is to end up with a decimated credit rating out of this.
Dont ask me how I was involved with somebody so irresponsible - young & stupid I suppose. You live & learn ( an expensive life lesson methinks : )  ) 
If I were to get the property in my own name & paid a lump off the mortgage - would the repayments go down, or would the length of the mortgage just shorten?


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## Macstuff (19 Aug 2010)

Hi Selenak,

As pointed out (and accepted by you), you should get a solicitor involved in this. 
Just to add something to the equation - be careful about your lump sum! Could there be any way you ex could have any claim on this? I assume you have this covered off - I'm just flagging it....

Also, make sure the impending Civil Union act (due for introduction in Jan)will not change your situation legally. I know you have been seperated for a while, but you need your solicitor to advise you on whether the amount of time you spent living in the house as a couple would entitle your ex to any rights that you may not have thought of.

Finally to answer your question on paying a lump sum off the mortgage. As far as I know you can request your bank to either; reduce your monthly payments or keep your payments at the current level and reduce your term. Double check with your bank. 
Best of luck with it and well done on having the rainy day fund.


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## Maynooth (20 Aug 2010)

This is an absolute mess. Something that will break you financially but you should make sure not to stress over it. What's done is done.

Personally I would just stop paying the mortgage. You will get a good few years in your house for free. With the political and banking situation you might stay in your house for ten years before being forced out.

I would make sure your mess becomes her mess though.


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## dereko1969 (20 Aug 2010)

Maynooth said:


> This is an absolute mess. Something that will break you financially but you should make sure not to stress over it. What's done is done.
> 
> Personally I would just stop paying the mortgage. You will get a good few years in your house for free. With the political and banking situation you might stay in your house for ten years before being forced out.
> 
> I would make sure your mess becomes her mess though.


 
That is pure moronic advice - you're advising someone to ruin the credit history on pure speculation? do you not read the papers? have you not seen the amount of repossessions that are taking place?


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## pinkyBear (20 Aug 2010)

Hi there, I would be reluctant to take Maynooths advice. You are in an OK situation in that you do have savings. Are you looking to move? Can you pay your mortgage? A few years ago we paid 25K off our morgage and that reduced the term by 3 years. Speak to you bank, your not in a bad way that I can see. 

The reality is you are like so many of us, who bought houses at the peak and have seen the value of our homes decimated, but unless you have to sell there is nothing you can do so no point in worrying about it. 

Get legal advise too, to ensure that your ex cannot claim anything from you or the property since she left..

best of luck, P..


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## Mrs Vimes (20 Aug 2010)

I wouldn't worry about the Civil Partnership thing, it hasn't been passed yet and you have broken up already. Surely no-one thinks it is going to be retrospective?
Sybil


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

Mmm I dont think just not paying and living there for ten years anyway is an option. Is this a common attitude of people in negative equity? Not for me anyway - the stress would kill me.
OK spoke to the bank. They say that they can't just take her name off the mortgage. She is legally bound to pay it. I know that - its just that she doesn't care.
I also cant get a mortgage in my name to buy her out because of the LTV.
I have an appt with a solicitor to see is there anyway I could take her name off the deeds. I know my ex won't have an issue with this - if I can track her down.
So dilemma - if I get the deeds thing sorted - do I a) use all my savings to try & bring the mortgage down. b) hold onto the money in case of an unemployment situation.
BTW in answer to an earlier Q I dont really want to live in this place. It was supposed to be a "starter home" ( rue the day i heard those words). However I do recognise that i would *like *to move. I don't *need *to move.

I'm wondering is throwing 70K (which it took me a long time & work & a bit of luck to get together) at this problem the solution. If property stays going down is it a bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted?

Should I hang onto my money & just keep making the repayments out of my salary - tight & all as it is


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## Mpsox (20 Aug 2010)

Maynooth said:


> This is an absolute mess. Something that will break you financially but you should make sure not to stress over it. What's done is done.
> 
> Personally I would just stop paying the mortgage. You will get a good few years in your house for free. With the political and banking situation you might stay in your house for ten years before being forced out.
> 
> I would make sure your mess becomes her mess though.


 
No idea what he means by getting "10 years before being forced out". Even allowing for the new rules that might come in, banks aren't waiting 10 years before repossessing and if anyone thinks something drastic is going to happen to change this then they are living in cloud cuckoo land.

In addition, if you did follow this advice, it's questionable if you'd ever get another mortgage in Ireland at any stage in the future.

You do need to take serious legal advice on this. Bear in mind that if (and I accept it's a big if at the minute) you were to hold on to this house and in 10-20 years time ended up selling it for a profit, you ex may have a claim on it, or could make life awkard for you at any stage if you did try to sell without her permission. 

Did your solicitor get you to sign a co-habitation agreement when you bought? That may clarify your options if you did

There was a piece in one of the papers last Sunday about at least one bank now offering negative equity loans. If that was feasible (and the bank was not named), then potentially selling the house, splitting the loss between you and your partner 50:50 and walking away might be the best option, leaving both of you with a personal loan of €50k (which you're savings would cover). You'd still be out of pocket but at least starting afresh. However, if she took the cat, she might need some legal persuasion to do this.


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## Maynooth (20 Aug 2010)

A reposession is the only way to force her to share a debt burden. Look at it this way.

YOur credit history will be shot but you can get years out of your house. You have 60K in savings and without paying a mortgage you can clear another 60K easy enough. Which should mean you can buy a place outright and you will have little need for credit.


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## wbbs (20 Aug 2010)

Hate to be pessimistic but I would think it unlikely anyone would advise her to allow her name be removed from deeds but stay on mortgage.  That would leave her with total liability for the loan but no benefit from ownership, not fair to you I know and there is no benefit to ownership at the moment due to the negative equity but I am sure she would be advised legally to provide for the 'what if' scenario.   Equally no bank is going to split the negative equity into 2 loans where one of the parties is not working, at the moment they have you on hook for full amount so why give up that.


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

Maynooth - Im pretty sure that with a recourse mortgage, as Irish mortgages generally are, I would lose the property, all my savings, and my credit history & any future chance of getting a mortgage if I stop paying.

Mpsox - I'm going to investigate further into your suggestion. This would be my best case I think. 
*If and this is a big if * the loan to pay the balance was completely split in two & even if she never paid a penny of it, it would have no effect on me.
I just need to convince ex this is the way forward. I also need to convince a bank that she's good for it. 
My concern is that they'll look at the current situation - loan being paid all is dandy , and not want to risk her defaulting on a seperate loan. 
Now I'm regretting being so candid with the bank. 
I dont suppose you remember which paper this article was in?


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

Point taken wbbs. Its worth a shot though. nothing ventured, nothing gained. I have to try to do something.


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

Mpsox said:


> Did your solicitor get you to sign a co-habitation agreement when you bought? That may clarify your options if you did
> QUOTE]
> 
> Who needs co-habitation agreements when your in love?
> ...


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## suzie (20 Aug 2010)

Not sure if you want too, but if you need to find her, can you contact her parents if possible? they may or may not be forthcoming...

S.


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## Mpsox (20 Aug 2010)

selenak said:


> Maynooth - Im pretty sure that with a recourse mortgage, as Irish mortgages generally are, I would lose the property, all my savings, and my credit history & any future chance of getting a mortgage if I stop paying.
> 
> Mpsox - I'm going to investigate further into your suggestion. This would be my best case I think.
> *If and this is a big if *the loan to pay the balance was completely split in two & even if she never paid a penny of it, it would have no effect on me.
> ...


 
Link to it is here

[broken link removed]


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

Thanks for that. I cant believe they were offering the loan over the same time scale as the original mortgage. That would be a definite runner for me. The only thing is the condition attached - 
"the only condition imposed by the bank was that the separating couple were asked to take on the negative equity loan jointly."
Thanks for all your help guys. I'm not looking for a magical solution here. 
Just weighing up the pros & cons of various options is a massive help - & it makes me feel a lot less isolated. I cant really discuss with my family because I dont want to worry them.


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## truthseeker (20 Aug 2010)

selenak - I truly sympathise with your position, I know people in a similar situation - I really do not have any magic solution for you.

In your position I would use a solicitor to chase down your ex and try to force her to take some responsibility. I realise that you cannot get blood from a stone and if she is unemployed there is little chance of getting much out of her financially, but you may be able to at least force her to make SOME kind of move on the situation. 

The way things stand right now you are taking on all the financial responsibility AND all the stress and worry.

I also think you should talk to your family about this, bottling it up isnt good for you and lets face it - youre not telling them you have a terrible disease, youre just telling them you are in a nasty financial situation due to someone elses irresponsibility. You will feel better emotionally and they may have some ideas for you?

What about renting out the property so that you are not paying anything out on it monthly?

I wish you all the best with it.

Oh - and I wouldnt use the savings to pay off any of it just yet, because thats just bailing your ex out.


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## orka (20 Aug 2010)

I would advise you to be meticulous in keeping (scan or file) ALL your correspondence, receipts, bank statements and other financial records until this is finalised - even if it takes 20 years.  If it came to it that your ex tried to make a case for a share of equity after you have paid the mortgage on your own for years, you will be in a much stronger position if you can show that every cent of the mortgage, bills, home improvements etc came from you.


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

Good thinking orka. Ive just started up a file & I'll keep everything in there. I think it could come in very handy one day.

Truthseeker - never a truer word spoken! I don't have a disease, I have my health, family & friends ( wealth is questionable : ) ).

At the end of the day its only money. I'll sort it out. I just need to be pro-active & stay positive. 

Truthseeker - out of interest what are the people you know in this situation doing about it?

As for paying the lump sum off - I may hold off on this & see how things pan out. If interest rates shoot up I may need to go down this route, but i can manage repayments for the moment.


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## truthseeker (20 Aug 2010)

selenak said:


> Truthseeker - out of interest what are the people you know in this situation doing about it?


 
In one situation the guy (who stayed in the house) got a new girlfriend and she moved in and actually took over the ex's part of the mortgage with the bank (one name off the mortgage, another name on). So the property is still in NE but the guy is in a new relationship in it, and the ex has no more financial responsibility. The ex got away lightly financially, but all preferred to move on in life emotionally.

In another one, both people are ignoring it - it is rented out, but the rent isnt covering the mortgage, no one is making up the shortfall - so both peoples credit is going to be destroyed, both have their heads in the sand.


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

First situation sounds like it worked out quite well then. 
Anyone know any girls who fancy taking on 60K negative equity? They'd get to go out with me. 
My God the second situation sounds awful though. Absolutely terrible. And the longer that goes on the worse it will get.
A lot of people think I'm being a soft touch by making up my exes half of the mortgage. In reality I'm not. I just dont want to end up in THAT situation. 
I hope for their sake they come to some resolution.


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## truthseeker (20 Aug 2010)

selenak - in the first situation, the resolution was best for all but there is still a fair amount of bitterness about it all. Mind you, the house was not as badly in NE at the time that the new girl took on the mortgage - it has become much worse since then. 

Yes - the second situation is a nightmare. Thats where you dont want to be.

Its in YOUR best interests to continue to make the repayments, you save your ex's credit rating while saving your own, but thats life.

Document every cent, EVERY cent.


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## Maynooth (20 Aug 2010)

Why did she take your cat?


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## Upstihaggity (20 Aug 2010)

Hi Selenak,

It sounds to me like you are taking responsible action and working towards a solution. Like truthseeker, I have numerous friends and colleagues in the same situation and the majority have contacted their bank looking for a moratorium on the mortgage and changing from capital and interest repay to interest only which is sometimes a short term solution but certainly only that.
I know you say you don't want to worry your family, but it can help to chat to them if only to stop you stressing so much. A problem shared etc...
Maynooth, I have to say you are not exactly helping towards a solution.


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

Meeting a solicitor on Tuesday so I'll come back with an update then.

Maynooth - I was going to sell the cat and use the proceeds to pay the mortgage so she took it.


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## truthseeker (20 Aug 2010)

selenak said:


> Meeting a solicitor on Tuesday so I'll come back with an update then.


 
Ill be very interested to hear what the solicitor has to say on this. Fundamentally you cant MAKE someone care about their financial responsibilities and as long as the mortgage is in both names it means your actions will protect her. There must be a legal way to force her to help out here.


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

Hi Upstihaggity,

Another good suggestion. I might put that in the "things to do when the rates go up" pile. I think I'll struggle then. 
I feel a lot less stressed now. Just hearing that I'm not the only eejit in this situation makes me feel better.


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## dancarter (20 Aug 2010)

any private investigator will find your ex in a week for a couple of hundred euro


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## Complainer (20 Aug 2010)

selenak said:


> Maynooth - I was going to sell the cat and use the proceeds to pay the mortgage so she took it.


Is this a prizewinning cat, or what?


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## Mrs Vimes (20 Aug 2010)

she's probably got the cat mortgaged against a "lifestyle" debt by now - fiscally irresponsible people tend to get theirs in the end.
Sybil


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## selenak (20 Aug 2010)

I hear the banks are using PIs now to track down mortgage defaulters - at home or abroad.
I wonder would the solicitor consider the possibility of a lien on ex's future earnings to be a runner?


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## redo (20 Aug 2010)

Selenek, if you didn't still have feelings for your ex you would know exactly what to do.  What she is doing (or not doing) is demonstrating how she feels for you.  Until you grasp that nettle, you won't be able to cross any bridges.


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## millieforbes (22 Aug 2010)

I would sit tight for a couple of years and not invest your savings in the existing house. 

I am in neg equity myself at the moment and was considering making additional payments (lump sums and regular) in the hopes that reducing the NE would mean banks would look more favourably on a borrower with no negative equity when the time comes to look for another property in a few years. However, I understand that the new negative equity mortgages proposed by some banks would be granted on the basis of adding existing neg eq to new mortgage on the condition that the new mortgage on a standalone basis meets existing criteria eg 90% LTV and borrower meets legal costs etc.

So, from my point of view, to have the best chance of getting another mortgage in the next couple of years, I shouldn't overpay on the existing mortgage but build up savings instead.

Hope that makes sense and good luck


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## Pat Bateman (22 Aug 2010)

Personally I'd keep the fact that you've €60,000 in savings under wraps - i.e. if possible, don't tell your bank.

You want to try and engineer a situation where the bank, your ex and you share the hit.

As things stand, you could easily end up carrying the can.  Try and avoid this.  Best of luck.


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## selenak (25 Aug 2010)

Update time.

So met with a solicitor. 
I don't have too many options, but the solicitor seems to think that a court order is the way to go to force ex -OH to pay.
He advised renting the apartment for the short-term, raher than one or other of us living in it. There would be a shortfall looking at market rates in the area, but this difference should be split equally between us.
Long-term he advised trying to sell it & pay the difference off. Im not happy to do this as it looks like we would still be bound into a joint loan - but with no asset to show for it.
Ive decided to keep my savings uder wraps for the moment.


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## truthseeker (25 Aug 2010)

selenak said:


> I don't have too many options, but the solicitor seems to think that a court order is the way to go to force ex -OH to pay.


 
Thanks for the update selenak. Im glad you have a way forward. I quoted the above just to ask - while a court order seems the sensible solution, how practical is it, you said your ex was unemployed? If she has no money then how will a court order make her pay up?


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## DeeKie (25 Aug 2010)

Not sure what you meant about keeping your savings "under wraps" but be upfront with your solicitor. He wont tell anyone else but if he does not know about something it might impact on his advice (which you are paying for).


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## selenak (25 Aug 2010)

OK i've got in touchwith Ex OH. 
It appears she is actively seeking employment & has 3 interviews lined up. When I mentioned the court order, it made her rethink her position & it appears now that it will be possible for her to pay her half of the mortgage (less rent received , if we get it rented) if I give her a few weeks to get a job.
I don't have any better ideas , other than enter a legal battle which will cost the earth.
On the "savings under wraps" I had considered approaching the bank & using my savings to reduce the mortgage. 
I now think I'll hold on to them.  I dont know what the future will bring.


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## AskAboutIt (7 Sep 2010)

Interesting to hear how you are getting on? Familar story know of a few ppl. with similar. Still my advice would be Keep your head, and ignore any personal feelings, don't fall for the usual nonsense the ex would spin you. Treat it as a buisness transaction no room for emotions. Still could be worse you might have married her....

(Be thankful you didn't marry her as you'd be out the door of the  "family house" while she would be staying there while you strugle to keep paying her for the privilage)


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## purple17 (26 Oct 2010)

Hi Selenak
Im in EXACT same situation (except for savings) and we've a 2 year old child thrown into the mix.
Ive been paying mortgage on my own the past year or so as my ex refuses to pay his half.  (He just about paying child maintenance).  
In approx €100k negative equity and based on my earnings bank wont allow me to take on mortgage myself.
I had decided to pay the repayments myself in hope that bank would allow me to take on house / mortgag by proving i could afford and keep-up re-payments for a year.
Renting out and splitting the difference is not an option for me as he WONT pay the difference i.e. if rent is less than mortgage.

Ive booked appointment with solicitor also for next week to see what my options are. 
I think my only option would be if bank allows me to take on mortgage or we go voluntary repossession. I couldnt afford legal fees or estate agent fees if i tried to sell myself. 
I can manage monthly repayments but i dont have any savings to pay for the likes of this.


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