# firing an Employee



## busorg (17 Aug 2010)

Hi,

hoping to get some advice.
I have an employee who has been working for me for the last 15 months but has had a couple of verbal warnings and two written warnings. A couple of weeks ago he turned up over an hour late for work and I gave another verbal warning as I didnt really want to fire him and wanted to give him another chance. A few days later however he again turned up an hour late. I was out of the country at the time but had made the decision to let him go once I got back.

However a day later his Mother died and now I dont have the heart to let him go, even though I really need to as he has proven to be unreliable.
He hasnt been back to work yet as obviously I gave him time off.

I think I just need to do it.
I guess I really wanted to know what other people would do in this situation?

Also, I've never fired someone before and was wondering if there is anything I need to do legally before I go ahead and do it. We are only a very small business. Would it be possible that he could try to take a case against me saying he was unfairly dismissed?

any advice greatly appreciated. I dont take this lightly at all and dread the thoughts of having to do it.


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## J.Ryan (17 Aug 2010)

Your best bet would be to go to a solicitor or an employment law specialist, the timing of his mothers death would be most unfortunate if he were to take a case (and it is always possible, regardless of its merits).

Another factor to consider (and I could be wrong on this), whatever paid mourning days you give him, you will also have to give to any other employee in the future.


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## niceoneted (17 Aug 2010)

Oh gosh that is a hard situation. I am lead to think that the reasons he was late was possibly due to his mothers ill health.
When you gave him warnings before both verbal and written was there ever any discussion as to what was causing the lateness. 
Is he a good worker otherwise? How does he fit in with the other employees?
If all is relatively positive apart from his recent few latenesses I'd give him another chance especially if you did not know his mother was ill. 
I work with a large no of people and there is always at least one that has something serious going on in the background, sick child, parent, financial problem, own illness or the likes.


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## busorg (17 Aug 2010)

Thanks for the replies. The mothers death was sudden. No illness.
Something I forgot to mention was that he took €90  from petty cash after his mothers death and before he went home. Sent me a text later that day (about 8 hours after he went home) to say he took it.
Taking money isn't allowed and he did it once before and was told not to do it again.


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## J.Ryan (17 Aug 2010)

Mention that when you consult one of the experts, but generally, I imagine that it would be hard to use that as a reason, given the circumstances.


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## Pat Bateman (17 Aug 2010)

I'd be inclined to consult an employment law specialist and give your employee another chance.  You should proceed based on the advice you receive from the employment law specialist.  The petty cash issue doesn't strike me as overly serious.  The guy's mother had just died and he borrowed €90 and advised you that he'd done so. Would you really refuse an employee a €90 advance from the company's petty cash on the day his mother dies?  What is this individual's performance like generally?


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## busorg (17 Aug 2010)

the previous verbal and written warnings were for a combination of not doing the job, lateness and just simply not showing up one day. 

Problem is i've been so forgiving on a few occasions since issuing the second written warning because the last thing I wanted to do was let him go. If I were to let him go then I have a staff shortage issue, so its not a decision I'm going to take lightly, but then again how many chances do I need to give him?

Bear in mind by turning up an hour late for work on each of those occasions last week it resulted in us being down an hours revenue (which is a lot for a small business) as we were not open until he showed up.


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## d2x2 (18 Aug 2010)

You need to talk to a HR agency who will advise you properly. If you don't follow the right procedure you could be sued under the Unfair Dismissals act.


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## censuspro (18 Aug 2010)

First question to determine is how long has he been an employee. I'm not a solicitor but my understanding is that if you can let him go while he is still in his probationary period and not be obliged to give a reason or be subject to litigation.

If he is has less than one years servicem it will also be easier to let him go as he would need at least one years service to make a case for unfair dismissal through the EAT (employment appeals tribunal). However, he could make a case for "wrongful dismissal" which does not require one years service but the onus is on the employee to make a case to the courts for breach of contract.

If he has more than one year and less than two years service, you could try and make him redundant. However he could take a case to the labour court and you would have to provide evidence that there was a downturn in business and that was the reason for making him redundant.

If he has greater than two years service, you could make him redundant but would have to pay redundancy which is two weeks pay for each full year of service maximum of €600 per week. i.e the max you are obliged to pay would be €1200 for each year of service but only if he earned more than €600 per week. You would then get 60% refund of the statutory redundancy for Dept Ent, trade and employment.


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## Latrade (18 Aug 2010)

If you're a member of IBEC, SFA, ISME, Chambers or something similar you should have access to HR advice as part of membership. If not, contact an external HR consultancy and get their advice first.


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## Betsygirl (18 Aug 2010)

You're in a very tough situation but if I were you, I'd give him one more chance and if he's late one more time after he comes back or you have any other problems with him, then I'd let him go. In terms of what to say, the only advice I can give you is to remember it's not personal, keep everything factual i.e. we have to let you go becuase you have received X written warning and since then we have not seen an improvement in your performance / attitude, you were late on these dates, you didn't turn up at all on this date etc. 

I know it's a terrible thing to ask, but are you sure his mother died? I've experienced a colleague before who lied about his grandmother dying. Of course he was found out and that didn't go down well...

I would definitely check with a HR expert first but I don't see how you could be at fault if you have already given him written and verbal warnings and have a record of these.


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## becky (18 Aug 2010)

Betsygirl said:


> .
> 
> I know it's a terrible thing to ask, but are you sure his mother died? I've experienced a colleague before who lied about his grandmother dying. Of course he was found out and that didn't go down well...


 
To be fair I know a few people whose 3 grandmothers died, I don't know anyone who pretended their mother/father died.


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## busorg (18 Aug 2010)

thanks for all the replies everyone. will be talking to a HR company but I rang NERA who were very helpful.

in answer to your question about whether his Mother died, to be honest I dont know. I've seen no mention of it anywhere in death notices etc so cant say for sure. It's a terrible thing to lie about so I presume he is telling the truth and I'm sure going through a tough time.

Problem is though he has become more unreliable (prior to his Mothers death) and the decision was made to let him go prior to hearing the news about her death. This unreliability is affecting my business, affecting revenue and customer satisfaction (as shop remains closed each time he was late), something which right now I can ill afford.

Hopefully I'll figure out the right thing to do


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## PaddyBloggit (18 Aug 2010)

search:

http://www.rip.ie

Her death should be listed there .... if not he could be telling porkie pies!


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## censuspro (18 Aug 2010)

busorg said:


> thanks for all the replies everyone. will be talking to a HR company but I rang NERA who were very helpful.
> 
> in answer to your question about whether his Mother died, to be honest I dont know. I've seen no mention of it anywhere in death notices etc so cant say for sure. It's a terrible thing to lie about so I presume he is telling the truth and I'm sure going through a tough time.
> 
> ...


 
Send flowers to the funeral on behalf of the company and ask what church to send it to.


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## busorg (18 Aug 2010)

censuspro said:


> Send flowers to the funeral on behalf of the company and ask what church to send it to.



Believe me I tried that but was told it was a private funeral and they didn't want flowers

I wasn't given an address or funeral location either. Am thinking now do I need to ask fir proof as I gave compassionate leave


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## ajapale (18 Aug 2010)

Moved from  Askaboutbusiness to  Work & Employment Rights which is where all aspects of Employer/Employee Rights and Responsibilities are discussed on AAM


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## Claire1956 (18 Aug 2010)

Sounds like he knew what was coming down the line and baled out..........let us know when he gets back to work!!! That would put me back in my box. 

From what you said he knew his luck was running out. However if he does come back I would expect that the performance will deteriorate so if/when this happens go through the correct steps of the process, two verbal and one written warnings, have him sign off on his understanding of what you are saying (invite him to ask a third party to sit in on these). The matter will close itself out rapidly.

BTW have you made it clear when he is expected back to work? If you are wishy washy on these matters you are make life hard on yourself and giving him an incorrect balance on this, it's supposed to be fair. You need to stand up and be clear in order for it to be fair.


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