# Buying art - anyone know about it?



## nelly (13 Sep 2006)

hi guys , just looking for a bit of info if there is someone there in the know. I am interested in Irish Art (painting) and am seriously considering purchasing some (maybe about 5k worth) when i get my SSIA payment soon. I am interested where one goes to purchase and how you know the prices are not inflated? Also is it expensive/difficult to get them insured. I am trying to beat the inflation problem of my few pound being worth less in a years time so others may have done this too - if so please do tell!


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## ClubMan (13 Sep 2006)

*Re: Buying art- anyone know 'about it?*



nelly said:


> I am interested where one goes to purchase and how you know the prices are not inflated?


Markets for stuff like art are very inefficient so it's difficult to establish a "fair market value" in most cases.


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## Humpback (13 Sep 2006)

*Re: Buying art- anyone know 'about it?*

I was looking at the stuff in an art gallery window close to where I work a week or so ago. All the prices were along the lines of "11" or "45" or "34". Just numbers like that.

Took me a while to realise that they were missing the 000 at the end of all the numbers. Honest  

Having said that, is this a pricing/advertising issue for the ODCA?


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## euroDilbert (13 Sep 2006)

*Re: Buying art- anyone know 'about it?*

Have a look at some of the online catalogue sites for Irish Auctions.

e.g. www.whytes.ie have an auction soon. Whytes show the estimated sale price for each painting. For completed auctions they show the actual sale price. Unlike estate agents, they seem to be able to estimate the price reasonable accurately .

Towards the back of the Irish Times on Saturday will also have a list of forthcoming auctions and ads from the various sellers. Whytes are just one of many.


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## steelblue (13 Sep 2006)

*Re: Buying art- anyone know 'about it?*

Hi

Art Ireland is usually on in Nov in the RDS.All painting displayed are for sale. Go early on first day to get best choice. Alway negotiate the price. Dont buy anything that you don't like.

Art autions are held by Adams, Whytes etc. There is a buyer premium that has to be added on , usually 5%. Check details on website.

Painting are usually dearer in Dublin than the rest of the country from my experience.

Some galleries like The Oriel in Dublin will buy the painting back, others like The Apollo will buy certain painting back at higher price after some pre determined time frame.

These are good ways to start collecting as no risk is involved unless the dealers go out of buisness.


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## Guest109 (13 Sep 2006)

*Re: Buying art- anyone know 'about it?*

i have a friend who is a brilliant artist and he works for practically nothing and he do,s a lot of charity work he should have been a millionaire with the hands he has he had a chance od doing work for RTE but turned it down  wants to do his own thing bohemain type  he is


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## tententwenty (13 Sep 2006)

*Re: Buying art- anyone know 'about it?*

You aren't just buying the art, you're bying the artist, and the period as well. Art as an investment goes through phases just like fashion. Shop outside the capital, there are some very good local artists in a lot of small towns. Do a bit of research on the trends and ask around. One very good artist is [broken link removed] (who does the unusual pastel work), or stop by the Kenny Art Gallery. They have some nice sculptures too.


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## ClubMan (13 Sep 2006)

*Re: Buying art- anyone know 'about it?*

In my opinion - unless you already have a well rounded portfolio well diversified by asset class, risk/reward profile, geographic region and so on and can afford to take a very speculative punt on stuff like art or wine, antiques, stamps etc. then you should not attempt to buy art as an investment per se whatever about buying something that you like for the enjoyment, to support a particular artist or whatever with some hope that you might also make money. Maybe.


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## rabbit (14 Sep 2006)

*Re: Buying art- anyone know 'about it?*

[broken link removed]

Brilliant artist with work still in your price range if you shop around.   The Apollo art gallery is worth a look too, and the gallery on the top of the St. Stephens green shopping ctr.     N.B.  I have no link to any of these three, just admire good work.


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## ClubMan (14 Sep 2006)

Can't you get his nephew _Jonathan's _stuff cheaper and it looks the same.


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## jdwex (14 Sep 2006)

*Re: Buying art- anyone know 'about it?*



rabbit said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> Brilliant artist ..


A lot of people would disagree with that


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## CGorman (14 Sep 2006)

Art is an investment like any other - houses, equities, currencies, vintage cars, wines etc.. It is always prudent to invest in areas where one has a good solid knowledge or can afford to hire an expert. If you don't understand the market or have only rudimentary knowledge of the asset class then it would be unwise to invest, particularly if you can't afford to diversify sufficently as Clubman pointed out.

The Irish Art market is very clubbish, snobbish and inefficent (IMHO). Dublin gallerys take as high as a 50% cut of the sales price in commission. Also remember under new EU law if you resell a work above a fixed amount the orginial artist is entitled to a cut of the proceeds (not of the profit, but of the actual sale price).

Irish Art suffers and will continue to suffer the same affliction as Irish property for the next few years - too much money chasing too few high quality units. There are scarcely a hundred Irish artists who's work is seriously sought after and the scarcity has lead to very high prices for the work of these artists. There "names" command prices perhaps in excess of true values. The very fact that Johnathon Knuttle has carved out such a solid market for himself is testament to this fact.

There are of course thousends of other talented small time artists (such as my mother) who often only paint as a hobby or perhaps as a part time job. There works are frequently displayed in local town art centers. However they are pot luck as far as investment goes, as the majority will never become a "name" and hence will never command much of a resale value.

Althought as I said, Art is an investment like any other, there are several unique aspects to it that make it more complex. 
1) unlike property you can't physical improve it's value, i.e. value is completely at the hands of external forces, 
2) unlike equities/property there is no useful formula to test value such as p/e or rental yield ratios, 
3) art is an objective subject, other asset classes can be viewed as purely invesments whereas Art can conjure significant emotional want in a perspective buyer and hence create a distortion in value. 
4) art investment requires more knowlede, research and specialism than almost any other type of major investment i.e. there are tens of thousends of artists in Ireland with varying reputations whereas there are perhaps less than a hundred companies on the Irish stockmarket and all are relatively easy to research (p/e, management, annual results etc.) 
5) art has very little physical value or use, only an abstract notional value. This makes true valuation very difficult/impossible. A companies value should be broadly in line with something like "sum of parts"+"growth prospects"+"group premium". A houses value should be something like "cost to build"+"land"+"developers profit"+"inflation since built"+"location premium" (althought this formula no longer seems to hold true in Ireland... but it will return after the slowdown). Arts value is "buyers opinion"+"name reputation" only.

To sum up my point, Art is a very specialist and highly complex market. As you have no real knowledge of it and you are only seeking to invest a relatively small amount (certainly not enough to get proper professional advice), i'd advise you to seek investment elsewhere. You could put the 5k into a First Active Term Account and earn 22.4% gross in 5yrs, or you could start putting the money into an AIB Regular saver account and earn 5.5% gross per annum.

If you really want to invest in art heres a few websites:


[broken link removed]
WAM - Westmeath Arts Movement
Kennys Gallery Galway
Wikipedia - Irish Artists (very useful for compartitively unbiased background info)


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## Lumpsum (14 Sep 2006)

The OP asked how can you know the prices are not inflated. They are inflated if you buy from a gallery - around 30 per cent commission I think. 

If you spend some time looking around and find a contemporary Irish artist you like, direct contact with him/her with an expression of interest in possible purchase(s) will often lead to an invitation to view a load of the person's stuff at their home or studio. I have done this, and it is a much nicer way to buy. Chat with artist about what he/she is trying to achieve in various works is great for your appreciation of a painting when you put it on your wall. Makes it more personal.



CGorman said:


> Art is an investment like any other - houses, equities, currencies, vintage cars, wines etc..


 
Excellent and comprehensive post, CGorman. Art can indeed be "an investment like any other". But as you say yourself its true value is difficult to figure out scientifically and its "future performance" as an "asset class" impossible to predict.

Basically, if you see something you would like to have on your wall, and it seems to be by somebody serious about their work, and you can afford it, then buy it. You might get lucky with its value, but in the meantime you will enjoy looking at it.

Finally the National College of Art and Design has an annual exhibition of works by its final year students, with lots of interesting stuff up for purchase at prices well below those for established artists. If you like one who knows, the student might turn into the next Tony O'Malley or Jack Yeats and your children will flog it for a fortune.


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## ClubMan (14 Sep 2006)

There are also public art sales around _Stephen's Green _and/or _Merrion Square _every weekend which allow you to cut out the middle man.


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## pat127 (14 Sep 2006)

The only difference between buying art as an investment and backing horses is that at least you’ll always have the art to look at. That’s why you should only buy a piece if you like it personally. If you are mega-rich you’ll probably be okay if you buy a Le Brocquay or a Sean Scully, but 5K won’t get you in the door. Alternatively you might be extremely lucky and buy something by a complete unknown who will come good someday. You might equally pick a winning horse using a pin.

I’ve bought a fair number of paintings over the years, for anything between 100 and 1600 Euros and most of them have kept or increased their value (inasmuch as one can determine that without trying to sell them!). My philosophy therefore has been to buy work which I immediately like, which will always look good on the wall regardless of residual value. The kids want them also so they won’t go to loss if not saleable!  

A wander around the galleries is very instructive and you can then find out as much as you can about the artists before deciding whether to buy. The artists may exhibit in Merrion Sq on Sundays and so you can meet them, or they may have a website. Many artists are delighted to give you access to their studios and they’ll paint to order if you have a favourite scene. The Dublin Painting and Sketching Club has an annual exhibition in Dun Laoghaire Town Hall (April time?) and you’ll see some lovely paintings there which sell very quickly.  Be careful if everyone you know seems to have a particular painter’s work (Louise Mansfield for example) which doesn’t mean it isn’t any good (I have a Mansfield myself and I love it) but it might  suggest that their popularity has peaked and values may not continue to rise.  Types of, or styles in art wax and wane in popularity but determining what’ll be in favour whenever you want to realise your investment is impossible. Choose only what you like personally, you’ll enjoy looking at it and if it increases in value then that’s a bonus. You could alternatively park your cash in Northern Rock, frame your annual Statements and hang them on the wall but it’s not the same thing, is it?


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Sep 2006)

On 30th September there is an open day at 7 independent and institutional artists' projects around Dublin;

http://www.visitstudios.com/


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