# Leaving Cert Applied: Education options for teens



## sansolde (15 Apr 2008)

To settle a parent/teen argument: can somebody give me an honest opinion about the option Leaving Cert Applied.  What type of student is LCA suitable for?  Is it considered a 'lower' form of leaving cert? Can kids go on to further/higher education after LCA? 
Opinions appreciated.


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## extopia (15 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*



I think it is definitely a "lower" leaving cert, but better than leaving school after the junior cert. Could be a good option for students who have difficulty with academic work.


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## television (15 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*

Im not sure if Institutes of technology will accept it for entry in fact im sure they dont. Also a lot of the time the kids going into to LCA can be kinda poorly behaved. However if LCA is done right in a school it can have some benifit if the student makes an effort. But it can be hard for genuine students in an LCA class because of the behaviour of a few. Overall I would say if you son daughter would not get a pass LC then LCA is probably the best route for them. A pass LC for me is to pass maths and english ordinary level  and get a few more passes. If he she is capable of this then I say stick to the ordinary leaving cert.


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## jeny (16 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*

LCA is considered lower than Normal leaving Cert. 

You can g to college after but usually have to do a PLC course first, However generally students who participate in LCA are doing all lower or foundation subjetcs and dont think they are going to pass the LC so they to LCA to give them options.

Its geared i felt to people who want to go onto to FAS course etc like plumber, electric who are good with hands etc but not necessarily at sitting down and doing exams.

I knew numerous people who did it and there have been mised outcomes, some set up own companies doing trade work( painting) some went onto do more courses i.e fitness insturctor & applied computer!

Its up to the person.

But i guess to answer your question- It is considered as lower than the LC


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## jeny (16 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*

Just wondering does your child have any idea what they want to do at all?


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## sansolde (17 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*

Thanks for the useful info. Jen my kid doesnt have much idea about career options, is just 15 years old but very good on computers + gadgets, loves cooking but also has a knack at makiing a quick €20 thru odd jobs. Definately not a reader and dislikes writing.   
LCA was my idea. My kid says LCA is for students of lower intelligence (in teen speak).


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## sansolde (17 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*

I have to say that the info and opinions here have given me a pretty good overall idea of what to expect from LCA and at this stage dont think its the right course to take. It seems pretty final and I dont like the fact that the options for further study are limited.


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## pernickety (17 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*

Isn't it sad though that if a child decides they want to be a plumber, plasterer, manual worker they are given the message that they have a 'lower' education and are held in lower esteem than our accountants, office workers etc. I know this has been the case for decades, but I think we should really question our attitudes here.

Most builders, plumbers etc I know are self employed or working for a small company and look like they enjoy every day on the job, always in good mood, ready for a chat over a cup of tea, taking pride in their work. Most office employees I know (and I was one for a long time) spend their day moaning and groaning over a cup of coffee and complaining about stress, dressed in dull shades of grey and with a demeanour to match.

Sorry off-topic but....


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## csirl (17 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*



> My kid says LCA is for students of lower intelligence (in teen speak).


 
Leaving Cert Applied is for students with learning difficulties. It is good for those students who have been receiving regular remedial or resource hours during the course of their education. LC Applied isnt academic - its purpose is simply to allow students with severe reading, writing and numeracy problems with the tools to do lifes basic transactions e.g. add up a shopping bill. It is unsuitable for students with no learning difficulties or who possibly may go onto further education. Generally speaking, LC Applied students would not have third level aspirations.

From your posts, it appears that your daughter has certain aptitudes which may lead on to a good career, so she would be better hanging in and doing the regular LC. If your kid doesnt have much of an idea what to do, you are better keeping your options open rather than closing doors by dropping back to LC Applied.


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## sansolde (17 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*



pernickety said:


> Isn't it sad though that if a child decides they want to be a plumber, plasterer, manual worker they are given the message that they have a 'lower' education .....
> Unfortunately these attitudes seem to come with the idealism of youth.  Having spent years myself, surrounded by overfed, overpaid, problem ridden colleagues, I think that the gifted plumbers, electricians, hairdressers etc are those to be envied.


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## sansolde (17 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*

[quote=csirlLeaving Cert Applied is for students with learning difficulties.....   It is unsuitable for students with no learning difficulties or who possibly may go onto further education. 
LCA  is a concept I knew nothing about until fairly recently.  Maybe it is unrealistic to expect to hear the above from the school your child attends. I suspect that the school in question just needs to make up its numbers in LCA and my child is 'in between', neither academic or problematic, just lazy and impatient.


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## jeny (17 Apr 2008)

*Re: Education options for teens*

My youngest brother is going through the exact same right now. My mother sujected LCA to him as he has no interest in the learning side of school but he doesnt want to do it at all. Is bright but wont apply himself.

Its hard to make a decision like this that will effect life choices as what 15 yr old knows what s/he wants to do for life! I certainly didnt!

Go ahead and do the normal leaving cert- hopefulyl will give more options when they are old enough to make a decision about college etc!


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## homebird (21 Apr 2008)

Another aspect of Leaving cert applied is that your results are not based on your performance in a bunch of exams in June. Approx one third of marks is earned for classroom assignments, one third for project work (tasks) and one third is achieved in exams in June of year 2. This suits students who have difficulty performing in end of course exams. 

The work experience aspect of LCA is useful for exploring career options. There is a much more vocational element to LCA, unlike the regular Leaving Cert which involves a lot of rote learning.


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## SarahMc (22 Apr 2008)

homebird said:


> Another aspect of Leaving cert applied is that your results are not based on your performance in a bunch of exams in June. Approx one third of marks is earned for classroom assignments, one third for project work (tasks) and one third is achieved in exams in June of year 2. This suits students who have difficulty performing in end of course exams.
> 
> The work experience aspect of LCA is useful for exploring career options. There is a much more vocational element to LCA, unlike the regular Leaving Cert which involves a lot of rote learning.


 
Results perhaps, but not points, LCA subjects are not counted for points purposes, so it is shutting off a whole avenue to you.  Perhaps certain PLC courses will accept it, but generally 3rd level would not be an option.

LCA imo is really for young people who may otherwise have left after JC.  If your child has a good aptitude for computers and gadgets, choose LC subjects with care, and they will sail through.

Pernickity, I think the snobbery re: trades v professions has vanished.


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## maison (27 Apr 2008)

Only do LCA if she has learning difficulties. The reality of this course is that the students that end up in it either by their choice of otherwise are typically disruptive and happy to see themselves as low achievers and disruptive! If she has an aptitude for a few things then ENCOURAGE her to take on subjects that lend themselves to this. Its fairly normal for a 15 year old to not have a clue what they want to do careerwise. They should still be testing out their interests in general at this stage. With LC points between 230 and 380 which would be low to decent mid range she will have a tonne of options in the PLC and Institute of Tech sector and can use the PLC sector to get to the ITs if necessary. There were never so many options and routes out there.


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## Complainer (28 Apr 2008)

maison said:


> The reality of this course is that the students that end up in it either by their choice of otherwise are typically disruptive and happy to see themselves as low achievers and disruptive!


I doubt if there are many students that are happy to see themselves as low achievers. Maybe if they've been told that they are low achievers by parents/teachers for long enough, it sinks in.

I read [broken link removed] about author Debbie McComber recently;


> DEBBIE Macomber has written more than 100 books. She has sold more than 60 million books worldwide, and is a New York Times bestselling author. Not bad for someone who couldn't read until she was 11 years old.
> 
> “I am dyslexic, but they didn't have a word for that when I was a child,” says Debbie who is from Washington State. “I was just considered slow. School was difficult.” That is an understatement.
> 
> “I was the only girl in the slow reading group,” says Debbie on a visit to Dublin to publicise her latest book, Wednesdays at Four. “My teacher said, ‘Debbie is a nice girl but she will never do well at school'. And I didn't.”


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## Purple (28 Apr 2008)

Complainer said:


> I doubt if there are many students that are happy to see themselves as low achievers. Maybe if they've been told that they are low achievers by parents/teachers for long enough, it sinks in.
> 
> I read [broken link removed] about author Debbie McComber recently;


Good points. There's no one size fits all answers to why children are the way they are.


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## cole (28 Apr 2008)

maison said:


> Only do LCA if she has learning difficulties. The reality of this course is that the students that end up in it either by their choice of otherwise are typically disruptive and happy to see themselves as low achievers and disruptive!


 
I don't know of any students who are happy to see themselves this way. 

I have seen kids who were disruptive up to JC blossom when they do the LCA. They become visibly happy as they are given tasks that they can accomplish as they aren't fustrated anymore (which can lead to disruption). It is a very practical vocational course and most of the students who do it will look to go straight into employment/apprenticeship after school. It is one of the success stories in our education system imo.


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## Purple (28 Apr 2008)

cole said:


> I don't know of any students who are happy to see themselves this way.
> 
> I have seen kids who were disruptive up to JC blossom when they do the LCA. They become visibly happy as they are given tasks that they can accomplish as they aren't fustrated anymore (which can lead to disruption). It is a very practical vocational course and most of the students who do it will look to go straight into employment/apprenticeship after school. It is one of the success stories in our education system imo.



I would not take on an apprentice (engineering trade) who did not have a good leaving cert as they need to have the ability to study and retain information. They also need to be able to understand trigonometry, programme machines, use CAD, work out loads/ thermal expansion etc, etc.  
If I am going to invest 4 years in training someone I want a return at the end of it, and it is an investment since the cost of the time taken to train them is far greater than any "cheap labour" saving they generate.
This may differ for other apprenticeships but I assume the same applies to many of them.


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## television (29 Apr 2008)

purple I have neve hears such a load of complete rubblish in my  life. to call it "one of the success stories in our education system" is to ignore the reality that the majority of students on it are disruptive and out of control. this is not the way I want it to be and maybe teachers are to blame. I have extensice experience of LCA in 4 schools. Yes there is patches of good practice doing good work but for the majority of schools LCA is a dumping ground for the dredges of the JC.


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## cole (29 Apr 2008)

Television I think your comments are directed to my post. I can only speak from my own experience and at least in my school the LCA is a great success.


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## television (29 Apr 2008)

yes some good practice and maybe your school is such a place. but i would not call that a sucess story of the whole education system. stretching it a bit no?


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## cole (29 Apr 2008)

No I don't think so.

"_There is general agreement among students who have taken Leaving Certificate_
_Applied and their parents and teachers that the range of courses offered, combined with the programme’s innovative assessment system, has made it an extremely positive experience for most participants"._

 newsletter.​


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## television (29 Apr 2008)

what do you expect an LCA newsletter to say. please come on its that kind of blatent ignoring of the facts on the ground, that has LCA the way it is. I live in the real world not the propaganda filled b**** world of the LCASS.


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## Purple (30 Apr 2008)

television said:


> purple I have neve hears such a load of complete rubblish in my  life. to call it "one of the success stories in our education system" is to ignore the reality that the majority of students on it are disruptive and out of control. this is not the way I want it to be and maybe teachers are to blame. I have extensice experience of LCA in 4 schools. Yes there is patches of good practice doing good work but for the majority of schools LCA is a dumping ground for the dredges of the JC.


 Can you clarify if your comments were directed at me or cole?


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## cole (30 Apr 2008)

television said:


> I live in the real world not the propaganda filled b**** world of the LCASS.


 
It's quite clear that no matter what  evidence I provide your opinion will still be negative towards the LCA so this will be my last post on the subject in this thread.

I was conferring with collegues today who also teach the LCA and every one of them thought it was a positive experience for staff and students alike. I can only add that in my teaching career to date, the last decade of teaching LCA students has only enriched my career.


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## television (30 Apr 2008)

Let me give my last post on this directed at you cole. 

As a teacher of any subject you probably are aware of something called objectivity.

The so called evidence you have given me is from your personal experience and from the LCASS

The LCASS is simply not objective so I would take their view of LCA with a certain degree of scepticism.

I would urge any parent who is looking for advice on the merits of LCA to do the same. 

In every LCA class I have taught there is at least 80% of students who do not give a dam. Im not judging them just giving evidence from my personal experience. Which people can take on board or not.

And I have seen teachers talking about how worthy LCA is at staff meetings etc and then for the same teacher to have LCA kids running a complete muck in their classrooms. 

I dont blame these kids the majority of teachers treat LCA with complete contempt i.e not perpared for class and not setting standards they would expect of other students. 

So advice to the parent looking for it from some one teaching LCA for a long time. LCA can teach low ability kids good life skills etc, if the only thing you want and expect from you kids it to work in a shop. Very few go on to do real apprentaship. I have been teaching and examining LCA tasks in other schools for a long time and have seen so much bad shoddy practice from teachers it annoys the hell out of me. These same teacher are so full of bull about the merits of LCA bit are so increadably lazy in reality.


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