# I feel Hotel took advantage of Minimum spend agreement



## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

I recently organised a social event in a well known city center hotel. I agreed a minimum spend with the hotel and if there was any shortfall I would pay this as room rental. We planned to serve wine, up to a certain limit of bottles, over the evening. 

On the night I had assumed the wine limit had been reached after a few hours as we no longer saw it been served.

However when we got our bill I saw that we didn't reach our minimum spend as there was a significant shortfall in the amount of wine consumed and we were charged this shortfall as room rental.

I feel that the hotel didn't make a reasonable effort to serve the wine, maybe in the knowledge of the fact that we had a minimum spend agreement and would be paying one way or the other.

The hotel doesn't acknowledge any fault on there behalf. Any ideas how to proceed? Small claims court?


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## ClubMan (9 Oct 2008)

I don't really understand the nature of your contract with the hotel.

_Small Claims Court _is only for consumer to business issues and this sound like it may be a a commercial/business to business transaction?


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## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

ClubMan said:


> I don't really understand the nature of your contract with the hotel.



I was paying the hotel for a function for my family and friends in one of their rooms, we had ordered a certain amount of finger food and wine, along with bar facilities. The contract stated if we spent a specified amount we would not have to pay for the hire of the room itself.



ClubMan said:


> _Small Claims Court _is only for consumer to business issues and this sound like it may be a a commercial/business to business transaction?



It was a party for my family and friends. Doesn't this make me a consumer?


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## ney001 (9 Oct 2008)

glendale said:


> I recently organised a social event in a well known city center hotel. I agreed a minimum spend with the hotel and if there was any shortfall I would pay this as room rental. We planned to serve wine, up to a certain limit of bottles, over the evening.
> 
> On the night I had assumed the wine limit had been reached after a few hours as we no longer saw it been served.
> 
> ...




If you organised the event, I assume the hotel would believe that it is your responsibility to check on the wine consumption i.e if you noted that it wasn't being served you should have checked to see if you had reached your limit.  You will say they didn't make an effort - they will say they did


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## ubiquitous (9 Oct 2008)

I don't see how you can have a case in the SCC or elsewhere. You agreed a price, and you paid it. You made an incorrect assumption in relation to the amounts of wine that were being consumed and you relied on this assumption instead of checking it at the time.


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## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I don't see how you can have a case in the SCC or elsewhere. You agreed a price, and you paid it. You made an incorrect assumption in relation to the amounts of wine that were being consumed and you relied on this assumption instead of checking it at the time.



The responsibility for serving the wine was on the hotel. I noticed wine was no longer been served and assumed it was all consumed. This assumption was incorrect but I don't see how that is at the core of the issue. 
The central problem is that the hotel didn't continue to serve the wine til either it was all gone or the event was over.


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## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

ney001 said:


> If you organised the event, I assume the hotel would believe that it is your responsibility to check on the wine consumption i.e if you noted that it wasn't being served you should have checked to see if you had reached your limit.  You will say they didn't make an effort - they will say they did



There is no doubt I should of checked what was going on once I noticed wine was no longer been served, no doubt if I had the problem would of been avoided. 

But I didn't have a contractual responsibility to make sure the wine was served till it was gone, surely this was the responsibility of the staff? 
Basically I trusted the staff to serve the wine until it was gone, they didn't do this. This from my point of view is the core of the issue.


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## ubiquitous (9 Oct 2008)

glendale said:


> But I didn't have a contractual responsibility to make sure the wine was served till it was gone, surely this was the responsibility of the staff? .



I'm not a legal expert and to an extent I'm merely playing devil's advocate here but I would be surprised if this responsibility is an absolute one. For example, if the hotel maintained that they stopped serving wine because some of the party were intoxicated (ridiculous and all as that may seem to you, given that you were there at the time) they probably would have a defence?


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## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I'm not a legal expert and to an extent I'm merely playing devil's advocate here but I would be surprised if this responsibility is an absolute one. For example, if the hotel maintained that they stopped serving wine because some of the party were intoxicated (ridiculous and all as that may seem to you, given that you were there at the time) they probably would have a defence?



I appreciate the replys. The hotel don't maintain this. Their defence is that  they served wine all night, but I don't think they made a reasonable effort to serve the wine for the course of the event. The reality is that it would be very difficult to prove absolutely either argument. So what would happen if a case like this went to the small claims court. Would the judge use common sense to come to a decision?


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## ubiquitous (9 Oct 2008)

I think the issue is too subjective (ie "I don't think they made a reasonable effort")  for them to make a ruling against the hotel.


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## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I think the issue is too subjective (ie "I don't think they made a reasonable effort")  for them to make a ruling against the hotel.



What if i had witnesses that said they didn't see any wine been served after X.XX in the evening?

By the way the shortfall was over a thousand euro, so its a decent sum of money just in case it seems I just been difficult.


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## Smashbox (9 Oct 2008)

Did you speak to the highest person possible?

As in, the very head of the hotel chain? If you didnt get satisfaction from the Manager or Duty Manager, ask for a meeting with the M.D. or someone higher in the business?


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## mathepac (9 Oct 2008)

glendale said:


> ... We planned to serve wine, up to a certain limit of bottles, over the evening.
> 
> On the night I had assumed the wine limit had been reached after a few hours as we no longer saw it been served. ...


I believe it was your responsibility to check with the staff on the night that all the wine up to the limit you requested was served.

Were your specific requirements or upper limits documented anywhere?


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## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

mathepac said:


> I believe it was your responsibility to check with the staff on the night that all the wine up to the limit you requested was served.
> 
> Were your specific requirements or upper limits documented anywhere?



I think it was reasonable to assume the hotel would carry out our instructions which was to serve the wine to our guests. And yes the limit was specified in an estimated costing.


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## sse (9 Oct 2008)

Some of the replies on here are baffling.

It's not the OP's job to monitor the hotel serving the wine. It's the OP's job to try and enjoy the function they were paying for.

The bar manager should have continued to ensure that wine was served up to the limit set in the contract, assuming that there was no reason not to do so such as drunken behaviour. As and when the limit was reached the bar manager should ask the OP whether to stop serving or to continue as the limit has been reached. That is standard practice.

It should be fairly obvious that the hotel would gain significantly by stopping serving before the contracted amount had been reached.

OP - I would write to the MD of the hotel and set out your concerns. Keep going higher until you are satisified. I assume you're only asking for the shortfall to be returned.

SSE


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## ubiquitous (9 Oct 2008)

sse said:


> Some of the replies on here are baffling.
> 
> It's not the OP's job to monitor the hotel serving the wine. It's the OP's job to try and enjoy the function they were paying for.
> 
> ...



Indeed, I agree, but on the other hand I find it hard to see how a court could rule in the OP's favour, given that the issue was not raised with the hotel on the night.


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## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

sse said:


> OP -  I assume you're only asking for the shortfall to be returned.
> SSE



We are asking for the wine that made up the shortfall to be returned to us as opposed to the cash value of that wine which I think is fair.


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## sse (9 Oct 2008)

glendale - I thought you would be asking for the shortfall, i.e. the "room rental" rather than wine? Bit confused as to why you'd ask for the wine!

How long before the end of the evening did the wine stop?

SSE


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## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

sse said:


> glendale - I thought you would be asking for the shortfall, i.e. the "room rental" rather than wine? Bit confused as to why you'd ask for the wine!
> 
> How long before the end of the evening did the wine stop?
> 
> SSE


 
I didn't ask for the shortfall as we agreed to the minimum spend and feel we should honor that. I would like the bottles of wine that should of been consumed (and which we effectively paid for), this is a fairer solution for both sides.

The bar closed sometime after 1.30, the last people left at 3. I didn't see any wine served after 9.30!


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## sse (9 Oct 2008)

Did the minimum spend include the bar takings?

Sorry I read this wrong and thought that the hotel hadn't served all the wine you ordered, but I assume after 9:30 I assume everybody was drinking something else from the bar which is why there were no complaints?

I don't think you'll get anything as you agreed a minimum spend which wasn't reached. I suppose even if the hotel had served all the wine the bar takings would have been lower?

SSE


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## glendale (9 Oct 2008)

sse said:


> Did the minimum spend include the bar takings?


 
No.



sse said:


> Sorry I read this wrong and thought that the hotel hadn't served all the wine you ordered, but I assume after 9:30 I assume everybody was drinking something else from the bar which is why there were no complaints?


 
The hotel didn't serve all the wine I ordered. Yes the bar was open as well and thats why it wasn't immediately obvious.



sse said:


> I don't think you'll get anything as you agreed a minimum spend which wasn't reached. I suppose even if the hotel had served all the wine the bar takings would have been lower?


 
Yes if they had served all the wine the bar takings would of been less.


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## Bronte (10 Oct 2008)

I don't understand your initial contract, particularly as you say that the bar takings were not included, how was the minimum spend calculated?  Could you give some more details please.


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## glendale (10 Oct 2008)

Bronte said:


> I don't understand your initial contract, particularly as you say that the bar takings were not included, how was the minimum spend calculated?  Could you give some more details please.



Sorry I just realised why you are confused. The agreement was that if our bill came to below a certain level we would have to pay the shortfall as room rental. The bill was to include, a wine reception, a meal and finger food. So I worked out the quantities of the above to just reach the minimum spend.


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## WaterSprite (10 Oct 2008)

glendale said:


> Sorry I just realised why you are confused. The agreement was that if our bill came to below a certain level we would have to pay the shortfall as room rental. The bill was to include, a wine reception, a meal and finger food. So I worked out the quantities of the above to just reach the minimum spend.



Were the additional bar takings (not the wine) not included for calculating the minimum spend?

I, too, am a little confused.  I would have imagined that the bar takings should also be included towards the spend.

Sprite


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## glendale (10 Oct 2008)

WaterSprite said:


> Were the additional bar takings (not the wine) not included for calculating the minimum spend?
> 
> I, too, am a little confused.  I would have imagined that the bar takings should also be included towards the spend.
> 
> Sprite



No the bar takings were not part of the agreement about the minimum spend.


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## JoeB (10 Oct 2008)

Yes, I agree with the original poster that the hotel are at least partially at fault. 

The OP had agreed a certain maximum quantity of wine which was to be served, the hotel knew this and were also aware that the OP would have to pay for any wine not consumed. So they should have told him that they intended to cease serving the wine.

I think you should write a detailed letter to the manager, explaining that a reasonable person will come to the conclusion that the hotel deliberately ceased serving wine in order to make more money... that is your allegation and let the hotel respond to it.. they must give a reason as to why they stopped serving well short of the agreed maximum and instead hit you with a large cash bill.

I don't feel they can give a reasonable reason, drunken-ness isn't adequate in my opinion, they may say something like no serving staff available, that's not your problem.

You should either get the wine you have paid for, or a reduction in the price.. I feel the hotel will have to accomadate you or else you go to the small claims court or onto Joe Duffy...

It's a sharp practice by the hotel that is borderline theft IMO....

(This all depends, the OP states the situation as if there was an agreed maximum serve of wine, if this is so then the hotel should have served the maximum with no double checking etc, they should definitely have informed the OP on the night if they intended to change the rules or stop serving well short of the agreed amount.)

Cheers
Joe


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## WaterSprite (10 Oct 2008)

glendale said:


> No the bar takings were not part of the agreement about the minimum spend.



Ah.  I see the problem so.  

So people were to be offered wine (at a cost) until the wine sales reached the minimum spend?  I'd imagine then that the hotel should have offered wine as a first option to everyone and certainly should not have stopped making wine available to people.  And if people didn't want wine (knowing that it was available but choosing to drink something else deliberately), then the intention was that this would not go towards the minimum spend?

You didn't pre-purchase the wine though, correct?  The people attending the event were supposed to purchase the wine during the course of the evening?  

If the hotel says that they served wine all night, then I'd ask them to see receipts to prove this.  It becomes more difficult if they did indeed sell *some* wine later in the evening, but just didn't offer it as a first choice to people.

I'd absolutely be asking for the shortfall in the wine to be given to you.

(Also - sorry, I just realised that someone else had asked the same Q about the bar takings.)

It strikes be as an extraordinary model for the hotel to use (wine only gets credited to the minimum spend), although it certainly benefits them.  I presume the contract doesn't say that the hotel was obliged to serve wine until the limit was reached? So the question becomes whether there is an implied duty on the hotel to use reasonable efforts to serve wine as the preferred beverage, and that's certainly the position I'd be taking with the hotel.

I don't see why the Small Claims Court wouldn't be the place to go.  See [broken link removed] for the citizen's information blurb on consumer rights, which has some useful phrases that you can put into an official letter (e.g. 
"If you have a contract with a service supplier you can expect that:...


The service will be provided with proper care and diligence...")
I'd write to the hotel manager and anyone else higher up (e.g. if the hotel is a group, write to the CEO) and say that:
- you booked the event based on a min spend on wine
- hotel should have used all reasonable efforts to ensure that wine was sold in preference to other beverages
- the hotel didn't use those reasonable efforts
- you'll be taking them to the SCC if you don't get satisfaction (obviously decide what you want here; the unused wine?  A refund of all or a portion of the shortfall?)
-I'd ask them for copies of the receipts to show the spend during the night, assuming that the receipts show the breakdown of what drink was ordered.
- throw in various applicable references to the Consumer Rights Acts etc.
- give them a reasonable time (a week?) to respond, else you're off to the SCC
- if they are a member of an approved body (e.g. Failte Ireland), you'll be complaining to them too.  Also, you'll be complaining to the National Consumer Agency

Have someone else read the letter too so that a person who didn't know the story could understand the issue as it appears quite complicated to describe.  They need to take this first letter seriously.  Feel free to post a draft here and I'm sure the bods at AAM will be happy to review it.

Sprite

p.s. posted crossed with Joe above but sentiments are similar!


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## ubiquitous (10 Oct 2008)

Does "a wine reception" mean that wine should be made available to guests all night until a certain quota is consumed?


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## sse (10 Oct 2008)

Ah right I think I understand this now, I thought the minimum spend included the bar.

It was clearly advantageous for the hotel to stop or reduce serving wine as they were guaranteed the money in any case due to the minimum spend on "food, room and wine" plus the incremental bar takings.

Agree with the advice on writing detailed unemotional letters etc., I think you've got a good case for a complaint, particularly if none of the staff mentioned anything at the time.

I'd also be asking for the cash back rather than overpriced wine.

SSE


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## glendale (10 Oct 2008)

WaterSprite said:


> You didn't pre-purchase the wine though, correct?  The people attending the event were supposed to purchase the wine during the course of the evening?



Just to clarify the guests didn't pay for the wine, I was paying for the whole event. They did however have to pay for drinks bought at the bar.



WaterSprite said:


> I presume the contract doesn't say that the hotel was obliged to serve wine until the limit was reached? So the question becomes whether there is an implied duty on the hotel to use reasonable efforts to serve wine as the preferred beverage, and that's certainly the position I'd be taking with the hotel.



The contract wasn't explicit about that no. I think the burden was on the hotel to make a reasonable effort to serve the wine through the course of the evening. There is something of a moral hazard as it isn't in their best finacial interest to do so however you _should _be able to trust a well known hotel in this regard.



WaterSprite said:


> I don't see why the Small Claims Court wouldn't be the place to go.  See [broken link removed] for the citizen's information blurb on consumer rights, which has some useful phrases that you can put into an official letter (e.g.
> "If you have a contract with a service supplier you can expect that:...
> 
> 
> ...



I have had some discussion with the hotel, they are to get back in the next day or two. If I'm still no satisfied I will follow your advise above.


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## glendale (10 Oct 2008)

sse said:


> I'd also be asking for the cash back rather than overpriced wine.



Is this reasonable seeing as I consented to a minimum spend? If I got cash back I wouldn't have met this.


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## sse (10 Oct 2008)

Well it's up to you but I assume the hotel asked you to pay for the shortfall in cash. You'll be paying a massive markup for the wine in the hotel - I'd be arguing that the wine isn't much use to me now as I clearly wanted it served to my guests during the evening which the hotel failed to do and that this is the basis of your complaint.

SSE


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## glendale (10 Oct 2008)

sse said:


> Well it's up to you but I assume the hotel asked you to pay for the shortfall in cash. You'll be paying a massive markup for the wine in the hotel - I'd be arguing that the wine isn't much use to me now as I clearly wanted it served to my guests during the evening which the hotel failed to do and that this is the basis of your complaint.



You might have a point. 
Thanks all for the very useful comments.


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## sam h (10 Oct 2008)

I would agree that you should look for the cash as the wine will be of little use & costly.

My understanding is that you effectively "bought" food & "X" numbers of bottles of wine.  Therefore, the staff should have continued to offer this wine to your guests until it had run out (and even then they should make it clear that it had run out so you weould have had the option to order more).  

There should have been a "event co-ordinator" who should have kept you informed on the status of the food and wine, it's not your job to be checking if the wine has run out or that they have simply stopped serving.

It appears as if they took advantage of the fact that some of your guests went to the bar (will always happen as some people don't drink wine) so the probably decided they will make more profit if the wine is paid for & the people are also going to the bar.

The other side you may want to point out is that you were treating your guests....yet by the stopping serving the wine it would look like you were being "stingy" (you know the type....Auntie Mary whispering to Auntie Joan...."mean", "stingy", "a drop more would have been lovely" !!!)

I think the hotel have been quite underhand about this - would love to know which hotel it is!!  I would be looking for the cash back as a minimum!!


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## glendale (10 Oct 2008)

sam h said:


> I would agree that you should look for the cash as the wine will be of little use & costly.



The issue has been resolved to my satisfaction. I have accepted the shortfall in wine - it won't go to waste. I think the key to a complaint like this is to keep escalating the issue until you get satisfaction.
Thanks again to everyone who advised.


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## tara83 (10 Oct 2008)

Glad you got it sorted.  It has been my experience from organising events for work that you have to keep a constant eye on everything at hotels.  I would also make sure the staff are aware that everything is to be passed by me.


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## ubiquitous (10 Oct 2008)

Well done. Fwiw, in my opinion the practice of "minimum spend" stinks. It is merely a way to extract money for nothing from the unwary.


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## sam h (10 Oct 2008)

> I have accepted the shortfall in wine - it won't go to waste.


 
Didn't mean to imply it would go to waste....more the extra mark-up is wasted (hotel price include....storage, cooling, opening & serving...plus they wash up the glasses) so a straight forward offer of the extra wine really leaves you out of pocket.

But at least you got something out of it...once you're happy!  Enjoy the vino.


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