# Skills that should be a minor but compulsory element of Leaving Cert



## Betsy Og (26 May 2010)

Basically things that would be useful for all 17 y.o's to know. Could be done during transition year if they do it. I'd be thinking a basic MCQ that you have to pass to get the leaving cert put is not part of the points system, can be done online at any time during the year (so not wracking up the pressyre) in a controlled environment - like the driving theory test. Every school could have one - just basically a supervised computer room. 

So topics:


First Aid - never a burden for anyone to know the basics. A module on sex education/health probably wouldnt go astray.
Road safety - basic instruction on safe road use for all users (including pedestrians). How/why accidents happen and therefore how you give yourself the best chance of avoiding them.
Basic personal finance - hammer the point that credit cards are the most expensive borrowings. Income must meet outgoings, in the long term at least. Dangers of moneylenders. Introduction to credit unions etc
The law - basically why its a bad idea to be on the wrong side of it. Cycles of criminality - have a record, cant get a job etc etc.
Anyone any other ideas? So, overall, if you had 60,000 or so individuals every year knowing the above wouldnt it be good for the country? I know there might be a civics type course that should cover the above but an mcq exam might make them learn something without overburdening them.

(apologies for the overuse of the word "basic" !!!)


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## callybags (26 May 2010)

Are all these not the responsibility of the parents/guardians?


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## Ciaraella (26 May 2010)

Sounds like a good idea, i don't think it should be a requirement to pass the leaving cert but practical advice about health and finance would be good. What is taught in the civics class? We didn't have this when i did my leaving, it is taught at leaving cert level?


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## Staples (26 May 2010)

Betsy Og said:


> So topics:
> 
> 
> First Aid - never a burden for anyone to know the basics. A module on sex education/health probably wouldnt go astray.




 First aid with a module on sex education?  What kind of accidents are you envisaging?


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## truthseeker (26 May 2010)

Basic food knowledge - this is junk, this is not. This is how to boil an egg, this is how to grill a chicken fillet etc..

A surprising amount of people havent a clue whats junk and whats not.


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## Kine (26 May 2010)

Staples said:


> [/LIST]First aid with a module on sex education? What kind of accidents are you envisaging?


 
Friction burns


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## Ash 22 (26 May 2010)

Sewing, knitting etc, would'nt go astray for the girls. We all need to be able to sew in a button at some stage in our lives. Also public speaking would be a big advantage. They'll all have to face up to interviews and maybe in time depending on their jobs they'll be addressing groups of people etc.


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## truthseeker (26 May 2010)

Ash 22 said:


> Sewing, knitting etc, would'nt go astray for the girls. We all need to be able to sew in a button at some stage in our lives. Also public speaking would be a big advantage. They'll all have to face up to interviews and maybe in time depending on their jobs they'll be addressing groups of people etc.


 
Sewing wouldnt go astray for either sex!!

Public speaking is brilliant - might save the rest of us the horrors we suffer at the dreaded 'best man speech' at weddings


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## Purple (26 May 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Sewing wouldnt go astray for either sex!!


 Well said. Mrs Purple would be far less likely to sew on a button etc than me.


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## Sunny (26 May 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Sewing wouldnt go astray for either sex!!


 
Thats just crazy talk. Next you will want girls doing woodwork and boys doing home economics.


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## delgirl (26 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> Thats just crazy talk. Next you will want girls doing woodwork and boys doing home economics.


My son's in transition year and is doing Home Economics - for someone who's growing rapidly and has 'hollow legs' - he loves it as he gets to eat everything he makes!  

I haven't sewn on a button in years - if my other half needs one sewn on, he does it himself!


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## Ash 22 (26 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> Thats just crazy talk. Next you will want girls doing woodwork and boys doing home economics.


 
Theres certainly nothing wrong with boys doing home economics in fact it would be good for them. As for girls and woodwork, if they enjoy it, why not?


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## corkgal (26 May 2010)

I can't believe that anyone would envisage a different education for girls and boys in this day and age. A joke surely.

Children should be thought the basics of reasoning and logic. 

There should be a course on civic and personal responsibility. Don't drive drunk and don't get pregnant at 15.

Maybe we could leave out Irish and add in this useful training. Or keep the kids in school until 5.30 so their parents can pick them up?


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## ajapale (26 May 2010)

Everyone leaving school should be able to touch type.


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## Betsy Og (26 May 2010)

Nutrition & interview skills would definitely be good. Typing would be good as well but might take up a fair bit of time in the context of a packed cirriculum. Most of the other stuff could be covered in 1 lecture per topic and a few handouts.

As for guardians - I despair when I watch programmes about the HSE letting kids die or whatever way you want to sensationalise it. My first question would be where are the parents and if they arent already in treatment/jail then maybe they should be for ill treatement of their kids.

So, sad as it seems, I'm not sure we can rely on parents to cover these basics. You and I will or should cover these things (I'm not one for abdicating responsibility to others) but, an a national level, I think the coverage would be better if it was formalised.

Re sex and first aid - have you forgotten about poor Leslie Ash and the "rough sex" injuries? I find myself that they dont make wardrobes like they used to, so be careful they dont fall asunder before you get to jump off them.


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## Armada (26 May 2010)

Here's my tuppence worth in no particular order,

Be able to do CPR, type, swim and drive!


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## Vanilla (26 May 2010)

Purple said:


> Well said. Mrs Purple would be far less likely to sew on a button etc than me.


 
Being made to learn knitting/sewing etc at school ( well it was either that or Irish dancing) has led to a lifelong aversion to any kind of sewing etc. I would only sew on a button if absolutely forced to do so.

So I think- philosophy. Everyone should be introduced to philosophy at school.


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## truthseeker (27 May 2010)

Vanilla said:


> So I think- philosophy. Everyone should be introduced to philosophy at school.


 
Studying it formally now as an adult, I think had I done it as a teenager I would have dismissed it as a load of semantic nonense.


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## Kine (27 May 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Studying it formally now as an adult, I think had I done it as a teenager I would have dismissed it as a load of semantic nonense.


 
Kind of like now then!


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## Mel (27 May 2010)

Vanilla said:


> So I think- philosophy. Everyone should be introduced to philosophy at school.


 
I agree - it's compulsory in France, I think they do the exam at the end of the year preceding the leaving cert equivalent.


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## Thirsty (27 May 2010)

We call it Scouting....if you want your children to have all the attributes and skills described here - get them involved!

First Aid - Check
Personal Safety - Check
Food/nutrition - Check
Budgeting - Check
Philosphy/Spirituality - Check
Water Activities - Check
Civic/Community Responsibility - Check
Sewing - Check
Public Speaking - Check


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## Sunny (27 May 2010)

God I hated the scouts as a kid. Even then, it was uncool!


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## Vanilla (27 May 2010)

Thirsty said:


> We call it Scouting....Philosphy/Spirituality - Check


 
What do they teach about philosophy/spirituality in Scouts?


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## Betsy Og (27 May 2010)

Re scouts - if all parents could be trusted to send kids there (& there were enough places) then ok, problem solved.

However the best chance of "coverage" is at leaving cert stage.


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## liaconn (27 May 2010)

How to mend a fuse, paper a wall, cook on a budget, know your consumer rights.


Oh, and how to assemble flatpack furniture.


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## mathepac (27 May 2010)

Thirsty said:


> We call it Scouting....if you want your children  to have all the attributes and skills described here - get them  involved! ...


There's the answer - make scouting / sea-scouting /  guiding / Order of Malta / Red Cross membership obligatory from primary school onwards until such time as proficiency badges in relevant areas are obtained; further membership and participation are optional but (like doing your Honours Maths through Irish years ago) additional credits could be earned through involvement in community initiatives.

Thirsty, my congratulations on a brilliant Big Idea.


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## The_Banker (27 May 2010)

Mel said:


> I agree - it's compulsory in France, I think they do the exam at the end of the year preceding the leaving cert equivalent.


 
Explains a lot about the French.


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## PMU (27 May 2010)

Some skills suggested by Robert Heinlein:

   "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."


I'm certain we can fit these into the Leaving Cert. [Personally, I've never had the opportunity to butcher a hog.]


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## Betsy Og (27 May 2010)

PMU said:


> Some skills suggested by Robert Heinlein:


 
Who's he when he's at home?


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## mathepac (27 May 2010)

Betsy Og said:


> Who's he when he's at home?


Probably some kind of weird American science fiction author; to me he sounds like the rarest of all beasts, a Goddam New Age Hippy Red Neck.

One his vilest creations Gok Wan, pollutes Channel 4 from time to time.


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## callybags (27 May 2010)

> conn a ship


 
How do you do this?

Tell it that " No, really, the only ice that is there is what you can see above the water"


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## Firefly (27 May 2010)

Betsy Og said:


> The law - basically why its a bad idea to be on the wrong side of it. Cycles of criminality - have a record, cant get a job etc etc.


 
This should be taught in primary schools


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## Purple (27 May 2010)

The_Banker said:


> Explains a lot about the French.



Well the 25% of under 25's who have no job have plenty of time to engage in deep thoughts rather than break the law... that's why there's no young people rioting in Paris...


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## Purple (27 May 2010)

Vanilla said:


> Being made to learn knitting/sewing etc at school ( well it was either that or Irish dancing) has led to a lifelong aversion to any kind of sewing etc. I would only sew on a button if absolutely forced to do so.



My God woman, how can you leave the house with you head held high?!


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## Firefly (27 May 2010)

I'd also add Sign Language to the list


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## Purple (27 May 2010)

Betsy Og said:


> Who's he when he's at home?



He was a science fiction writer. He died in the late 80's or early 90's (I can't remember and can't be arsed to Google it as nobody cares).


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## Staples (27 May 2010)

Mel said:


> I agree - it's compulsory in France,


 
So is deliberate handball but that doesn't mean we should all follow suit.


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## mathepac (27 May 2010)

Purple said:


> ... that's why there's no young people rioting in Paris...


That makes a change, remember this guy ?


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## Purple (27 May 2010)

mathepac said:


> That makes a change, remember this guy ?



No, wha' did e' do?


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## mathepac (27 May 2010)

Daniel Cohn-Bendit, current Green Party member and MEP, he and his university pals were the catalysts (some would argue the agitators) for the riots that engulfed parts of Paris in May-June 1968. What started out as a kind of minor student protest snowballed into a city-wide face-off between DeGaulle and his "leftist" opposition. So be careful what ye say about Eamonn Ryan 

http://www.answers.com/topic/daniel-cohn-bendit


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## Thirsty (27 May 2010)

> What do they teach about philosophy/spirituality in Scouts?


We could be here for a while.... 

From the Scouts perspective, we don't 'teach' in the traditional sense; Scouting is all about learning by doing.



> God I hated the scouts as a kid. Even then, it was uncool!


That's a shame - but tell me what's 'uncool' about ..

Crewing a Tall Ship
Abseiling
Rock climbing
Ski-ing
Ice-Skating
Building a raft from scratch (and 'sailing' it!)
etc.,etc.,


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## Thirsty (27 May 2010)

> parents could be trusted to send kids there


Kinda the wrong way round - young people come to Scouts because they want to.



> & there were enough places


There indeed is the rub...with sufficient leaders, there is no shortage of places; getting adults involved however is always the constraint.

So, folks, here's my challenge to everyone reading this thread - instead of bemoaning the general uselessness of young people (and they're not really) and/or expecting our (already overwhelmed) education system to take it on....put your money where your mouth is and get out and volunteer & do something about it.


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## mathepac (27 May 2010)

Thirsty said:


> ....put your money where your mouth is and get out and volunteer & do something about it.


Whoa! Hold on there, bud, stall the ball.

This is primarily a think tank, where really, really clever people come to strategize, blue sky, green field and brain storm. If you want execution-level folks then I suspect you might be in the wrong place. The model for our success was forged in the white heat of Ireland's Celtic Tiger economy by commissioning expensive glossy reports and doing feck-all with them.

You might feel the urge to get down and dirty with burnt sausages, damp grass and curious cows, but others of us must display the leadership qualities this country needs. Sorry.


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## Thirsty (27 May 2010)

> ... burnt sausages.. and curious cows...


We never burn the sausages and that's not a nice thing to say about Guide Leaders!


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## Vanilla (27 May 2010)

Thirsty said:


> From the Scouts perspective, we don't 'teach' in the traditional sense; Scouting is all about learning by doing.


 


Thirsty said:


> So, folks, here's my challenge to everyone reading this thread - instead of bemoaning the general uselessness of young people (and they're not really) and/or expecting our (already overwhelmed) education system to take it on....put your money where your mouth is and get out and volunteer & do something about it.


 
Not until you explain what scouts learn about spirituality/philosophy by doing...

Seriously though, the scout organisation reminds me of being a kid sniggering at my uncool first cousin in his FCA uniform ( he graduated to this from the scouts).


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## PMU (27 May 2010)

Betsy Og said:


> Who's he when he's at home?


 You've lived a sheltered life: [broken link removed]


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## becky (27 May 2010)

ajapale said:


> Everyone leaving school should be able to touch type.


 I agree with this one.  Shorthand is one I would like to be able to do. After a meeting you could touchtype your notes or get someone else to do it. No trying to make out messy notes as they too can read shorthand and touchtype.


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## Ciaraella (28 May 2010)

Scouts can be great but is very dependant on the enthusiasm of the leaders. Some groups can be just a youth club with uniforms where they play football and games all night. If the leaders are interested and motivated it's great, we went camping, kayaking, hiking, went to jamborees (an international camp where loads of groups from all over the world meet up) and on fantastic holidays abroad. There's no being looked after either, a good bit of physical work putting up tents, filling water buckets, washing your clothes when on camp, hiking for miles and no turning back if you're tired. I'd recommend it to anyone!


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## Betsy Og (28 May 2010)

Thirsty said:


> So, folks, here's my challenge to everyone reading this thread - instead of bemoaning the general uselessness of young people (and they're not really) and/or expecting our (already overwhelmed) education system to take it on....put your money where your mouth is and get out and volunteer & do something about it.


 
Or you could cut out the middle man and and make the effort to teach your kids yourself - that's my plan. Will also send them to scouts but "at da enda da day" if they dont know the stuff I listed below it'll be my fault.


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## mathepac (28 May 2010)

Betsy Og said:


> ...  "at da *enda* da day" ...


"Did someone minshin me? I hope you're not trying to blame FG for this.  As sure as my name is Inda Kinny, if Biffo broke it FG'll fix it".


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## Thirsty (28 May 2010)

> the scout organisation reminds me of being a kid sniggering at my uncool first cousin in his FCA uniform


 
Scouting is a movement, not an organisation.

Sniggering is more of a reflection of your (then) level of maturity; I'm sure you've grown up since.

The 'FCA' is now known as the Reserve Defence Force and they wear the same uniform as the regular Defence Force. Whilst I have no doubt that the regular army training is even tougher, anyone who voluntarily undergoes the RDF training has my unstinting admiration - it is not easy stuff. 



> ...dependant on the enthusiasm of the leaders.


This is true, but then the same could be said of GAA Clubs, Schools, Choirs etc., etc.,


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## ajapale (28 May 2010)

becky said:


> I agree with this one.  Shorthand is one I would like to be able to do.



Shorthand is a very useful skill, regrettably one that I have never mastered.

Do people still practice it? I imagine voice recorders have rendered the skill redundant.


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## delgirl (29 May 2010)

ajapale said:


> Everyone leaving school should be able to touch type.


Couldn't agree more.  No child should leave school without the ECDL - my son has just passed his, the school included it in their transition year programme.


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## becky (29 May 2010)

I know 1 girl who uses shorthand, she did a secretarial course after her leaving. Glad to say I have never been at a meeting that was recorded but I don't go to many meetings thankfully. Sure ECDL doesn't teach you touch typing does it? I have a staff member who did ECDL and I wouldn't be that impressed with her PC skills. She too did a secretarial course years ago so is a fine typer but otherwise PC skills are basic enough.


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## gipimann (29 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> Thats just crazy talk. Next you will want girls doing woodwork and boys doing home economics.


 
Smiled when I read this - I did woodwork for my Inter Cert back in 1976.....instead of home economics!


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## gipimann (29 May 2010)

Regarding shorthand - I remember seeing an advert many years ago for a particular variety of shorthand, which used ordinary letters and abbreviations instead of the "squiggles" normally associated with shorthand.   It was claimed that it was easier to learn and use than the traditional method.

They were right - show me a child/teenager who doesn't use txt spk!


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## Vanilla (29 May 2010)

Thirsty said:


> Sniggering is more of a reflection of your (then) level of maturity; I'm sure you've grown up since.


 
Only a bit, sad to say. But my once uncool cousin did very well for himself, so he had the last laugh ( and the FCA contacts he made didn't do him any harm).


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## ajapale (29 May 2010)

gipimann said:


> Regarding shorthand - I remember seeing an advert many years ago for a particular variety of shorthand, which used ordinary letters and abbreviations instead of the "squiggles" normally associated with shorthand.   It was claimed that it was easier to learn and use than the traditional method.
> 
> They were right - show me a child/teenager who doesn't use txt spk!




Is it tee-line? This was favoured by journalists.


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## Caveat (30 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> God I hated the scouts as a kid. Even then, it was uncool!



That's what I thought until I joined. (This post will be deleted if not edited immediately, I make it sound like a cult)

Much less 'starchy' than you might think though. A bit of silly quasi-militarism (which in fairness, even the leaders seemed to almost resent), good practical stuff and a *lot* of crack. Our troop had girls too which helped I suppose.


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## Complainer (31 May 2010)

Armada said:


> Be able to do CPR, type, swim and drive!


At the same time?



Firefly said:


> I'd also add Sign Language to the list


Like any language, there is no point in learning it unless you are going to be able to practice and use it regularly, otherwise the knowledge is lost over a couple of years.


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