# Legality of erecting convex traffic mirror on public road for concealed entrance



## readysteadygo

We live in a rural area and as we have a concealed entrace to our house I am planning to put up a large convex mirror accross the road from entrance to improve safety when pulling out onto the road (cars travel this road at high speed).

Does anyone know if there are any legal implications if I put this mirror up?
Do I need to notify the local authority that I am putting the mirror up?

Any advice appreciated.


----------



## z105

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*

Might be worth calling the local authority for authorisation/advice on the matter, then you shouldn't have any future issues ?

Also, you should be sure that the piece of land you are putting the mirror on has been agreed with/allowed by the land owner, very NB


----------



## Purple

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*

Can you just put it on an ESB pole? What are they going to do about it?


----------



## extopia

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*

Take it down, perhaps?


----------



## Purple

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*



extopia said:


> Take it down, perhaps?



Exactly, they are hardly going to slap them with a fine for illegal mirror erection


----------



## shesells

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*

You should NEVER erect anything on an ESB pole, it's a huge fire safety risk.

[broken link removed]


----------



## davfran

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*

If you own the site across the road I cant see any problem, in fact its quite common. Otherwise get permission from the landowner, its a safety issue afterall.


----------



## Fintan

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*

Just make sure that the mirror is positioned in such a way that it doesn't confuse drivers at night.


----------



## Purple

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*



shesells said:


> You should NEVER erect anything on an ESB pole, it's a huge fire safety risk.
> 
> [broken link removed]


 I can't see the wind blowing a mirror up onto a power line.


----------



## Betsy Og

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*

where can you buy them?, need one for turning in to entrance (turning right off a bend that curls away to the left).


----------



## Lorrie

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*

Years ago at the family home we erected one of these mirrors across the road. It was so handy as visibility was poor. It lasted about two weeks and was stolen! Can't remember where they got it but it was quite expensive. I'd suggest you attach it very strongly so its not easy to steal.


----------



## michaelm

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*



billygruff said:


> Any advice appreciated.


Just put it up and don't worry about it.


----------



## readysteadygo

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*

Thanks for the advice folks, much appreciated,

I putting the mirror up tomorrow, the wife amd kids were nearly killed this afternoon pulling out onto the road, priority is clear now - safety first - let council tell me its ok to let families be at risk of being killed by speeding cars.

I've been in touch with a decent and reliable local councillor (who also has a convex mirror erected outisde his home) - he is checking with the authorities if it is allowed to have mirrors erected to prevent our families being at risk of being killed due to the problem of speeding traffic on rural roads...


----------



## Purple

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*



michaelm said:


> Just put it up and don't worry about it.



Exactly


----------



## ajapale

*Re: Legality of Convex mirror for concealed entrance*



michaelm said:


> Just put it up and don't worry about it.



I'm not so sure about this advice.

Suppose I'm traveling along the main road and I'm dazzled or otherwise momentarily distracted by your mirror. If an accident ensued I think I might be inclined to take a civil suit against you!

I would check with the planning department of the Local Authority and follow though the official process.


----------



## readysteadygo

Update on mirror...
First mirror was smashed by a rock (not accidentally)
Fitted second mirror and the post+mirror was nicked.
Not fitting another one.


----------



## RMCF

eBay seems a decent place to get them

http://home-garden.shop.ebay.co.uk/...cles_CarParts_SM&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282


----------



## T McGibney

ajapale said:


> Suppose I'm traveling along the main road and I'm dazzled or otherwise momentarily distracted by your mirror. If an accident ensued I think I might be inclined to take a civil suit against you!



That's crazy advice, if you don't mind me saying so. How on earth would a  'momenarily distracted' case succeed? There are features on every roadside on the planet with the capacity to momentarily distract a driver if they are driving carelessly or not paying sufficient attention. 

As for the 'dazzled' argument, if you're driving under or into a sufficiently strong sun, then its your responsibility to ensure that you are driving safely and appropriately for the conditions. Telling the judge that your neighbour's mirror, window, gatepost or bicycle dazzled you won't cut it.


----------



## csirl

> Telling the judge that your neighbour's mirror, window, gatepost or bicycle dazzled you won't cut it.


 
I'm not sure about this. Remember how they had to adjust the bottom of the Spire on O'Connell St because it was dazzling motorists? In my area, we have a lot of silver metal lamp posts. In recent years, the council has painted the bottom half of the poles a horrible mat grey colour and any new posts erected are not shiny silver in colour. They would not be doing this if there werent legitimate concerns over road safety and liability in the event of an accident.


----------



## T McGibney

The Spire is slightly larger than and of different dimensions to your average roadside convex mirror or common roadsign.


----------



## ajapale

readysteadygo said:


> Update on mirror...
> First mirror was smashed by a rock (not accidentally)
> Fitted second mirror and the post+mirror was nicked.
> Not fitting another one.



Im sorry to hear that rsg.

Its funny that vandalism and theft were not considerations when we discussed this back in 2008!

aj


----------



## ajapale

T McGibney said:


> That's crazy advice, if you don't mind me saying so.



Here is what [broken link removed] co co has to say on the matter of traffic mirrors.
[broken link removed] 



> *Traffic mirrors*
> 
> [broken link removed]Sometimes a "blind exit" from a property is dangerous - for both the driver emerging and those travelling along the main road. Whilst a mirror located on the main road may well help those joining the road, unfortunately a mirror is legally classed as an obstruction on the highway and therefore cannot be put up without the express permission of the Department for Transport.
> 
> 
> There are two further concerns: (a) the lights from a vehicle emerging from a private access may shine onto the mirror and reflect into the eyes of an approaching motorist, causing considerable confusion and possibly an accident, and (b) the emerging driver may rely on the mirror, even though it might have become obscured or no longer be visible.
> 
> 
> The first course of action that may resolve the situation would be the removal or lowering of adjacent hedges to improve visibility. If this course of action fails to achieve reasonable visibility, then Lancashire County Council (as the highway authority) may be prepared to apply to the Department for Transport for authorisation of a mirror (this would be at no cost to the highway authority).
> Authorisation is generally forthcoming subject to *all *of the following conditions being met:
> 
> 
> 
> The site must be rural or semi-rural where traffic on the main road is travelling at speed
> Mutual visibility is virtually nil (ie the driver of the vehicle leaving the property and the driver of the vehicle on the main road cannot see each other's vehicle until they are almost next to each other)
> An improvement scheme is not possible
> Visibility cannot be improved by the removal or setting back of fences, hedges, wall or trees
> The speed limit is above 30mph
> A mirror would serve a single property
> A mirror would not be permitted where it would encourage a significant number of people to rely solely on it for visibility purposes.
> Lancashire County Council's stance on mirrors which are sited off the highway (on private ground), and subject to the landowner's agreement, is that they will not interfere unless they receive complaints.



The following technical note from Australia is also interesting.

.[broken link removed]


----------



## T McGibney

ajapale said:


> Here is what [broken link removed] co co has to say on the matter of traffic mirrors.
> [broken link removed]
> 
> 
> 
> The following technical note from Australia is also interesting.
> 
> .[broken link removed]



That may be so, but I still can't imagine a scenario where a driver could succeed in bringing a 'momenarily distracted' or 'dazzled' case against a third party in court would succeed. Drivers must at all times drive with due care and attention, ie not allow themselves to be distracted so as to affect their driving.


----------



## ajapale

And closer to home from Fingal Co Co:
[broken link removed] 



> *BSA/472/03 TRAEN HILL/CHURCH ROAD, LUSK JUNCTION*
> Question: *Councillor G. McGuire *
> "To ask the Manager would he erect a visual reflector and road markings at the junction of the Old Church in Lusk?"
> *Reply:*
> The location referred to in the question is the Trean Hill/Church Road Junction.
> The Councils Transportation Department is generally opposed to the use of traffic mirrors for safety reasons. At some locations they may provide a temporary solution but there are difficulties associated with their use for example:-
> 
> 
> 
> [*]Due to curvature of mirror, distance is distorted;
> [*]A driver approaching on a road seeing light in a mirror at night may be confused;
> [*]If the mirror is altered by accident or vandals, drivers may be misled and/or confused;
> [*]Mirrors usually become the targets of vandalism.


and from Wales
[broken link removed]



> 2 Limitations of Mirrors
> Traffic mirrors may appear to be a simple remedy for a lack of visibility but can
> themselves cause safety problems because:
> • They can affect drivers’ visibility because they reflect headlamps or
> sunshine dazzling the driver at night, or particular times of the day or
> season;
> • They can affect drivers ability to judge the distance of approaching vehicles
> because convex mirrors are used to achieve a wide angle of visibility;
> • Weather conditions may cause visibility problems which could be
> dangerous to users.
> • Maintenance of their alignment and cleanliness is critical.


although I do concede that the chances of "..sunshine dazzling the driver at night..." are somewhat remote! 

and Oxfordshire CoCo insist that anyone erecting traffic mirrors on the public highway have Public Liability Insurance and indemnify the council agains claims.

[broken link removed] 



> *Maintenance*
> 
> 
> 
> we will not be responsible for any damage, repair or replacement of mirrors.
> Public Liability Policy must be held by the owner indemnifying Oxfordshire County Council for at least £10,000,000 for any incident or any one claim involving the road mirror.


----------



## ajapale

Back in '08 when I made the point about dazzling it was in response to a suggestion that the OP just "_*put the mirrors up and dont worry about it*_". 

I merely suggested that the OP talk to the planning and roads departments of the local authority.


----------



## michaelm

ajapale said:


> I merely suggested that the OP talk to the planning and roads departments of the local authority.


At best they'd say "work on".  More likely they would deny or delay the request, then putting it up is problematic.  Worriers and sticklers should talk to the roads department .


----------



## mrso'brien

You need planning permission to put a mirror up like that. I know it sounds nuts, but there is an issue with dazzling of lights etc. I know this for 100% fact. You would need to contact the Local Authority - both Planning and Roads Design/Roads and Transportation Sections. They may give you an exemption but from my own experience it is likely you will need planning permission!!


----------



## ajapale

boaber said:


> http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1993/en/act/pub/0014/sec0071.html
> 
> Roads Act 1993
> *71.*—(1) ( _a_ ) Any person who, without lawful authority or the consent of a road authority—
> 
> (i) erects, places or retains a sign on a public road.



So it would appear to me that you would need to have lawful authority or the consent of the road authority to erect such a mirror on the public road.


----------

