# Quote one price, charge another



## z103 (28 Oct 2007)

A few months ago, I got a few carpenters to give me quotes as to how much it would cost to make and install a staircase. Finding an available carpenter was hard enough - but that's another story.

I was given a quote for €2800 to build and install the stairs.  A section of ceiling also had to be removed, but the house was built with this in mind, so this didn't require too much work.

All the work was completed to my satisfaction.

The carpenter has now come looking for payment, and wants €3940. This is because he installed an open thread stairs, but maintains he quoted me for a closed thread stairs. (I asked simply for a stairs). He has also added on extras such as spindles, extra posts, extra materials and labour, and €640 for 2 hours work removing the ceiling, and even a courier charge for the spindles!

This is an increase of about €1000 over his initial quote. (This was a quote, and not an estimate)

Just wondering what other people's opinions on this is. Is he justified in charging this amount? Adding these 'extras' on and not informing me that he was changing his initial quote.


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## BillK (28 Oct 2007)

What documentation do you have?
Did the original quote describe *in writing* what you were getting for the quoted price?

If it did and the carpenter deviated from that description *without your prior written agreement* then tell him to take a hike.

If you have nothing in writing concerning what he would do, for what price, then you have a major problem.

I have to say that you appear to have been more than a bit lax in specifying what you wanted -"I asked simply for stairs"- which tends to suggest that you really had no control on what was to be done for how much money.

Why did you allow him to install open tread stairs when the quote was for closed tread?

Are you sure that he quoted a price and not just an estimate of a price?

Without a written specification and a quotation to provide goods to match that specification you seem to be on a hiding to nothing.

Good luck!


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## z103 (28 Oct 2007)

Hi BillK, thanks for replying.

To clarify;


> If you have nothing in writing concerning what he would do, for what price, then you have a major problem.


I have no written documentation. It was a verbal agreement. He doesn't deny the original quote either. 



> I have to say that you appear to have been more than a bit lax in specifying what you wanted -"I asked simply for stairs"- which tends to suggest that you really had no control on what was to be done for how much money.


 
Well I didn't know that there'd be a cost difference in the type of stairs (~€1000), and the carpenter certainly didn't let me know. I was as specific as I could have been at the time. Wouldn't it be up to the carpenter to highlight such issues at the time of the quote?



> Why did you allow him to install open tread stairs when the quote was for closed tread?



He came around to the house and gave me a quote for a stairs. A couple of weeks later, he came around to measure up. At that point, he asked if I wanted it open tread, which I agreed to. He never mentioned that this would be more expensive.



> Are you sure that he quoted a price and not just an estimate of a price?


It was certainly a quote. I made sure of this from hearing other horror stories. He doesn't deny this initial quote either.


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## hlm (28 Oct 2007)

When we got our alarm fitted, guy came back to us and said the quote we had received was completely wrong (they never seem to go too high do they) and said that in all honesty the work involved wasn't covered by the bill. We wanted to be fair to the guy and when he explained the work that was needed which the guy who had given us the quote hadn't taken into account, we met in the middle and paid half the difference. What is your gut feeling on the job that's been done? Presumably he knew what he had quoted you for, why did he feel the need to change the stairs without telling you? In terms of cutting away the ceiling, he must have known that had to be done either way. It does sounds like he is chancing his arm to some degree, can he give you reasons as to why he felt the need not to adhere to the original quote and work?


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## BillK (28 Oct 2007)

I think that your only options are to either:

1. Pay the original price and wait for the carpenter to sue for the difference.

2. Try to reach a compromise on price.

3. Bite the bullet and pay up.

This could be an expensive lesson which, provided you remember it, may save you a lot of money when asking for quotes for any work in future.

Always document what has been agreed i.e what is the job to be done.
Always get quotations in writing, including exactly what work is to be done.
Always ensure that you are told, again in writing, the cost of any variations to the original contract.

Never be embarassed or afraid to ask the "silly" question e.g. "What difference will that make to the price?"

If you learn the lesson and remember it well, it could save you a lot of money in the future, but I think you are probably on a loser with this one.

Perhaps Carpenter can provide some advice?


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## z103 (29 Oct 2007)

> 1. Pay the original price and wait for the carpenter to sue for the difference.


This is what I'm going to do.



> What is your gut feeling on the job that's been done? Presumably he knew what he had quoted you for, why did he feel the need to change the stairs without telling you?



My gut instinct is that he's chancing his arm. In my line of business, I'd often quote people. However, I'd never dream of going back on my word and upping the price after the event. I've often lost money on an original quote because of this.

To be honest, I didn't think €2800 was too cheap to start with.

Billk - shouldn't the onus be on the carpenter to detail exactly the quote covers? I wasn't aware at the time that there would be any difference in price between the two types of stairs. Just didn't occur to me.


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## ubiquitous (29 Oct 2007)

leghorn said:


> In my line of business, I'd often quote people. However, I'd never dream of going back on my word and upping the price after the event. I've often lost money on an original quote because of this.


If this is the case you should educate yourself on "scope creep" and organise your pricing (and purchasing) strategies in order to protect yourself against it. Works far better than risking being sued by your carpenter.


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## BillK (29 Oct 2007)

leghorn

Yes it was up to the carpenter to detail what was included, but it was up to you to get everything in writing. At the very least this ensures that no one is reliant upon memory of what was said.

Was it Sam Goldwyn who said that a verbal contract wasn't worth the paper it was written on?


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## z103 (30 Oct 2007)

> If this is the case you should educate yourself on "scope creep" and organise your pricing (and purchasing) strategies in order to protect yourself against it.



I never have a problem with our customers trying "scope creep". What we will do is well documented in advance. Any losses we incur would be because we underestimated the work at the outset - our own fault.

"Scope Creep" certainly isn't a policy we would use ourselves. We rely on repeat custom. Even if we tried it, I'm sure our customers would look at us in complete disbelief (and tell us where to go).



> Yes it was up to the carpenter to detail what was included, but it was up to you to get everything in writing. At the very least this ensures that no one is reliant upon memory of what was said.



There isn't any problems of what was said. We both agree with what was said, if it was on paper it wouldn't make any difference. Although I do take your point that that carpenter should have detailed exactly the work he was going to carry out.

I'm sure if I asked him to do that he would have dropped the job.


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## Jock04 (30 Oct 2007)

Leghorn,

What materials are the stairs in?
Open string stairs ARE more expensive than closed, but the material used will make a difference as to how much.

I assume that when he asked if you wanted open string, it was more than a one-sentence conversation? If he told you in even the vaguest terms that "it'll cost a bit more, but sure it'll look 10 times better" or whatever, you should have pursued him as to how much extra. Passing up that opportunity may now cost you plenty.

Also, I'd be asking him for details on why extra spindles, newell posts etc were needed - he should have been able to quantify this properly when he visited to quote.

I'm afraid this sounds very much like a classic case of "thank God I've found someone who'll do the job, I'll sort out the price later". But you probably have some room for negotiation.


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## z103 (30 Oct 2007)

> What materials are the stairs in?


Deal.



> Open string stairs ARE more expensive than closed, but the material used will make a difference as to how much.


I was wondering about that - thanks.



> I assume that when he asked if you wanted open string, it was more than a one-sentence conversation? If he told you in even the vaguest terms that "it'll cost a bit more, but sure it'll look 10 times better" or whatever, you should have pursued him as to how much extra. Passing up that opportunity may now cost you plenty.



No, it was pretty much a one-sentence conversation. 

Nothing was mentioned about it being more expensive.  I've decided that not paying him more than he quoted.  I asked for a quote, so that I'd know how much the job would cost.

I look forward to the court case.


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## z103 (31 Oct 2007)

Update

Just to complete the story, I just gave him a letter outlining my concerns. He read through it and said to just give him the original amount of €2800. It didn't take him too long to do this either.

Thanks for the opinions and advice.


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## BillK (31 Oct 2007)

Great result, well done!


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## Sue Ellen (31 Oct 2007)

leghorn said:


> Update
> 
> Just to complete the story, I just gave him a letter outlining my concerns. He read through it and said to just give him the original amount of €2800. It didn't take him too long to do this either.
> 
> Thanks for the opinions and advice.



Unbelievable 

Reminds me of a guy who did the same job on both ours and neighbours house many years ago.  Neighbour mentioned in passing how much he was paying and presumably because he was in the building trade there was £200 in the difference.  As soon as I mentioned it the price was matched at the lower rate.


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