# planning retention - apply or not?



## greenglass (24 May 2011)

I am looking for some advice please.

Last year I had a planning application done for me for an extension to the side of my house. Since then, we decided to build a garage which was not part of that permission (we built it without permission as we thought it was not necessary). 
The planner visited us and saw the garage. Our planning permission for the side extension has returned invalid stating that the garage was not shown on the plans (the garage was built after the planning application went in, but was almost completed when the planner visited). 
Also we now realise that the garage requires permission as it is over the 25sqm allowed and over 4m high.
What should we do now? Is it be easy to get retention for garages? 
It is behind the house (detached) and no higher than the house (6m high), also it is about 38sqm.
Can we ignore the planners advice? Is it likely that we could receive a letter telling us to knock it down or to apply for retention? Do they usually follow up on site visits?
Should we change the garage to comply with the regulations?

Thanks


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## mf1 (24 May 2011)

Building a building without planning permission  is a bad thing. Ignoring the planners advice is an equally bad thing. 

Talk to an architect or engineer and take their advices. 

mf


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## bluemac (24 May 2011)

Can I ask why the planner visited.


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## JoeRoberts (25 May 2011)

Ref Mf1

OP knows the legal situation and an architect or engineer is not going to advise against this in a professional capacity .
So OP really needs advice from someone who knows the "ins and outs" of the situation.


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## onq (25 May 2011)

greenglass,

You are moving from a situation where you have been uninformed or perhaps badly informed to where you hope to be well-informed by a professional.

This is a good thing and while I wish more people would do this before they build, it is heartening to see it at any time 

============================

As your garage is large and unauthorized, you may be required to knock it down.
Let's get over that hump first - you went outside the law and a strict planning officer may go down the enforcement route and into court.

However...

You can attempt to regularize it under the Planning and Development Acts by seeking planning permission for retention of this structure.

As a bare minimum your architect would need to survey the existing house, the garage and include the proposed extension.

Depending on how the existing garage affects 


 the house,
 the visual aspect of the complex of buildings that will be on your site,
 the private open space disposition,
 overshadowing and amenity,
 any neighbouring sites and houses,
 your architect may suggest an alternative design for the extension or perhaps a modification to the garage to improve matters.

You must first appoint an architect with planning experience to assess the situation and represent your interests before the local authority.

While you can proceed to represent yourself, you have tried to do things extremely economically and received poor advice or no relevant advice and it has resulted in the current situation.

You get what you pay for.

============================

To specifically answer your questions:
_
*"Can we ignore the planners advice?*_*"*

Yes, but you shouldn't - it annoys them. You should appoint a professional representative immediately and let them take it from there for your best advantage.

*"Is it likely that we could receive a  letter telling us to knock it down or to apply for retention?"*

More than likely, yes - that's the planners job. Strictly speaking it may move from the planners desk to the enforcement officers desk if there is a separate department. You may work the existing situation to best advantage  and avoid a possible follow on court case if you appoint a professional now to look after your best interest but its by no means certain. You may need to fight an Appeal if your application for retention is refused.

*"Do they  usually follow up on site visits?"*

This depends on the local authority as to how the follow up, but no local authority is busy at the moment and they have plenty of time on their hands for putting their house in order. I suspect they will follow up.

*"Should we change the garage to comply with the regulations?"*

Do nothing until you have appointed a competent architect with planning experience and sought his advice.

There may be other issues in relation to the garage that are not immediately apparent to you. Your understanding of the regulations was flawed to begin with or you would not be in this situation. Do nothing to make matters worse. Take professional advice now.

============================

This is a small matter to you now, and if handled correctly and carefully may remain a small matter.

However there is a perception that the local authorities are as much to blame for Ireland's woes as anyone else, since they are the bodies that permitted the explosion of development that inflated the market. They need to be seen to be squeaky clean and acting to the letter of the law.

Which is where this could go pear-shaped very quickly. A little-known provision of the Planing and Development Act 2000 allows ANYONE to take a Section 160 Action against a persons who has engaged in unauthorized development.

My reading of the section is that it is worded in a draconian way, fails to allow for a suitable defense of having applied for retention and has the potential to cause a lot of hardship. So far the courts seem to have back-pedaled the severity of this section and allowed the planning process


application for retention
planning appeal
decision
to take its course.

Where blatant breaches of planning law with little or no sign of common sense or remorse are presented by a local authority - as opposed to a bollshie neighbour - the courts may take a harsher view.

In that case you could be saddled with the local authority legal bill as well as your own, plus the cost of rectification, plus any planning and professional fees.

============================

So my best advice to you is to put your best foot forward as soon as you can and make the suggested appointment. And no, the persons appointed will not work for nothing, but equally you shouldn't be crucified with fees if this is a straightforward negotiation and retention with some modifications.

Hope this helps.

ONQ.

      [broken link removed]

      All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be  relied                      upon                                                                                                     as  a            defence       or                support   -         in          and       of                    itself    -                        should                           legal                        action               be                           taken.
      Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to           advise        in                                                                                                           Real      Life         with               rights      to                inspect          and                   issue                       reports           on               the                                     matters         at                           hand.


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## greenglass (25 May 2011)

many thanks for all replies especially to onq.


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## Peter Sweeny (25 May 2011)

Good reply by ONQ, also bear in mind that warning letters and/or enforcement notices can be very stressful to any home owner, and will likely prevent the sale or re-mortgage of any property if they are left hanging over a property.


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## onq (25 May 2011)

You're very welcome greenglass and thanks Peter.

Yes, people are going through enough at the moment without building things twice and knocking them down in the interim.
Measure twice, cut once - in other words take professional advice before you do anything that may need planning and check all relevant sources of information before you make a move, even if you're a professional

Case in point.

I was advising a client this week on an older premises where it seemed likely permission would be needed.
First stop the development plan, to find the zoning is fine but the premises lies in an architectural conservation area.

Second stop the local authority to find that the method of applying for pre-planning meetings has changed

- information must be submitted formally by e-mail to start the ball rolling
(previously all it took was a phone call)

- you need to submit an Ordnance Survey Map as part of the pre-planning submission
(previously this outlay could be deferred until lodgement)

So even a professional used to dealing with the local authority can be wrong-footed unless he checks _each time_.
Measure twice, cut once.



ONQ.

      [broken link removed]

      All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be   relied                      upon                                                                                                      as  a             defence       or                support   -         in           and       of                    itself    -                         should                           legal                        action                be                           taken.
      Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to            advise        in                                                                                                            Real      Life          with               rights      to                inspect           and                   issue                       reports           on                the                                     matters          at                           hand.


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