# Fire brigade charge - fallen tree on car



## Morty1 (12 Apr 2021)

Hi, a tree fell on my car while I was driving it on a public road. No damage physically, though the car was a write off. The local authority have classified it as a road traffic accident, and sent me a bill for 1680.00 - 8 fire fighters for 4 hours. Am I liable for the entire bill, or should the landowner who owns the tree that caused the incident have any responsibility for the bill?


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## Thirsty (12 Apr 2021)

Glad to hear no one was hurt.

Hand it over to your insurance, they will haggle it out with the owner.


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## SparkRite (12 Apr 2021)

I wouldn't be too quick to just hand it over to my Insurance Provider (NB. if it's only for the Fire Brigade bill of €1680 )

As it is a comparatively small claim they *may well* just pay it in full ( not worth their time to question it ) and impact your NCD and
if they do, you will not be 'claims free' to allow you find competitive alternative insurance, usually for 5 years.

Who called the fire service? Surely that should be first 'port of call' for that bill?

It's bad enough that your car is written off, through no fault of your own, but why should you be out of pocket as well ?
Your claim is against whoever is responsible for the tree.

Obviously you are duty bound to inform your insurance Co. of the incident, but make sure you provide all pertinent details (landowner name, address, time/place of incident, who called emergency services, pictures if you have any, etc )  and it is not just paid out from your comprehensive cover (assuming you have same).

I would stress to them that you are not liable nor at fault.


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## Morty1 (12 Apr 2021)

Thanks for your replies. Sorry, I should have said, I didn't claim on my car insurance for the incident because it would have cost me more money in the long run with losing my NCB. I just don't know now whether I am liable for the entire fire brigade charge. A passing motorist called the fire brigade. There had been a storm the previous evening, and the fire brigade were busy all day clearing trees. Because the local authority have classified it as a road traffic accident, I was billed. But if it had been classified as a tree falling. I imagine the landowner would have been billed. I suppose my contention is that - the tree falling caused the whole incident, but legally I don't know whether that matters


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## elcato (12 Apr 2021)

Were you present still when the FB arrived ? If it were me I would state I didn't call any emergency services and would have dealt with it myself accordingly.
BTW, might the lamdowner be the self same council ?


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## Morty1 (12 Apr 2021)

Yes, I was there when the FB arrived, but elcato the incident happened a few months ago now. Should I just pay up? Several emails between myself and the local authority by now. They have reviewed my appeal and dismissed it. They say they are not billing the landowner, because they have classified it as a road traffic accident so basically they are not taking the fallen tree into account. But the majority of the FB time would have been spent clearing the tree. Basically they pushed my car into the hard shoulder, and I really don't think that would require 8 fire fighters for 4 hours each


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## Early Riser (12 Apr 2021)

SparkRite said:


> Your claim is against whoever is responsible for the tree



I don't think the landowner would have liability unless they were at fault through negligence - that they knew, or should have known, that the tree was in a hazardous condition through disease, damage, root disturbance, etc. This might be difficult to establish if everything has been cleared up. And especially if the incident happened during a storm.

If the car was a write-off and you are claiming for this it might be best to just include the fire brigade. Otherwise you will need to argue it out with the Council.


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## Morty1 (12 Apr 2021)

Thanks Early Riser, I am not making a claim with my insurance company because it would cost me financially. I suppose what I'm asking is this - am I legally liable for the entire FB bill, or should the landowner who's tree caused the incident be liable, or both?


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## dereko1969 (12 Apr 2021)

Get legal! If the tree fell on your car whilst driving then it's not an RTA in my mind. Your solicitor should be able to send a couple of letters for a lot less than what the FB charge is. By the way you're on a hiding to nothing if you start querying why 8 FB staff had to be there for 4 hours.


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## Buddyboy (12 Apr 2021)

From what you're saying
1. Someone else's  tree fell on your car. 
2. Someone else called the fire brigade
3. They pushed your car to the side
4. They then proceeded to cut up the tree (which was not yours, nor you caused to fall)
5. They are billing you for the whole incident

If it was me, I'd get legal advice as €1680 is a lot of money to pay for something you appear not to have had a hand in.


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## Early Riser (12 Apr 2021)

Morty1 said:


> am I legally liable for the entire FB bill, or should the landowner who's tree caused the incident be liable, or both?



There does not appear to be a clear answer to this. If the tree fell on a fine day there is a good chance that the landowner would be liable. If it was in a storm it would be a lot less clear - unless there was evidence of negligence.

I suggest your best bet is to argue with the Council that, in any event, it was not you who was at fault and that it is the responsibility of the landowner, if anyone. Try to get them to pursue the landowner. Whether they succed or not, they might eventually back off you - or settle for a lesser amount. As you do not appear to be the one who called the fire brigade this should strengthen your case.

Here is a recent Farmers' Journal article : https://www.farmersjournal.ie/who-is-responsible-for-a-fallen-tree-594068

And this is from an Indo article:

_"Tree damage during a storm is usually considered a 'natural' event or an 'act of God' that is nobody's fault. However, if a tree or limb falls on a sunny day and damages property or causes injury, then the land owner can and likely would be held responsible."_








						Advice: Are land owners liable for damaged caused by trees and hedges
					

Q I am a landowner and have an issue with mature deciduous trees which are located approximately six feet inside a ditch which adjoins a road. The trees are of great value to me as they are located on the boundary of my lands. I would be sorry to have to cut them back, but I am concerned about...




					www.independent.ie
				




PS. I expect they are pursuing you in the expectation that you are making an insurance claim and the fire brigade would be included in this.


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## Thirsty (12 Apr 2021)

Who needs the hassle? That's what you pay your insurance for; let them deal with it.


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## SparkRite (12 Apr 2021)

Early Riser said:


> I don't think the landowner would have liability unless they were at fault through negligence - that they knew, or should have known, that the tree was in a hazardous condition through disease, damage, root disturbance, etc. This might be difficult to establish if everything has been cleared up. And especially if the incident happened during a storm.


Exactly, as I said, the claim would be against the party responsible for the tree.
Whether said claim would be successful or not is indeed dependant on a number of factors, not least the ones you have mentioned.


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## SparkRite (12 Apr 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Who needs the hassle? That's what you pay your insurance for; let them deal with it.





Morty1 said:


> I am not making a claim with my insurance company because it would cost me financially.





Morty1 said:


> I didn't claim on my car insurance for the incident because it would have cost me more money in the long run with losing my NCB.


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## SparkRite (12 Apr 2021)

Buddyboy said:


> From what you're saying
> 1. Someone else's  tree fell on your car.
> 2. Someone else called the fire brigade
> 3. They pushed your car to the side
> ...


That seems to be it, in a nutshell.

When you put it like that, it seems incredible.


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## sharkattack (12 Apr 2021)

Tell the Local authority that you will see them in court and just represent yourself.  Just outline the facts to the judge that you have outlined above.  Don't we pay property tax for services like FB.


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## Morty1 (12 Apr 2021)

Thanks everyone, you've been a great help. I think I will go down the legal route, contact a solicitor and see what they say. Thanks again


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## PaddyBloggit (12 Apr 2021)

Morty1 said:


> I think I will go down the legal route, contact a solicitor and see what they say.



Let us know how you get on....


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## LS400 (12 Apr 2021)

Before you go down the legal route,

Just to clarify, I know you said the tree fell on your car as you were driving, that being the case, i believe you have no liability there, and would not be paying this bill, but, if you drove into a falling tree, or felled tree, well, that's a different story, and you would have a responsibility for this charge.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Apr 2021)

Morty1 said:


> I think I will go down the legal route,



I don't think that you need to.

Send a letter to the Council denying responsibility and let them take legal action.

Copy it to the land owner.

Brendan


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## Sunny (12 Apr 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I don't think that you need to.
> 
> Send a letter to the Council denying responsibility and let them take legal action.
> 
> ...



Exactly. Leave it up to them to chase. I remember a friend in the fire service telling me that unless an insurance company pays, these tend to disappear and never get paid.


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## Thirsty (12 Apr 2021)

Your car has been written off; so either you have no car or had to purchase another one.  You may or may not still be paying a loan on the written off car.  You've been sent a whopping bill for FB services and you are now contemplating legal action and fees.

Yet this is cheaper than, potentially, losing some NCB.  I hate to think what your insurance premium must be.

BTW - next time you take out car insurance, ask about protecting your NCB.


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## Cervelo (13 Apr 2021)

While I do agree with the Thirsty's post above I think it's important to point out that although you can protect your NCB 
you cannot protect your gross premium from rising after you make a claim on your policy


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## RedOnion (13 Apr 2021)

Cervelo said:


> that although you can protect your NCB
> you cannot protect your gross premium from rising after you make a claim on your policy


Yes, and the protection only applies with your current insurer.


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## Morty1 (13 Apr 2021)

Morning, thanks for all your advice. The tree fell from the ditch onto the bonnet while I was driving. I have tried to explain my point of view to the local authority in writing, but they dismissed my point of view. So I'm going to hand all the paperwork over to a solicitor. I agree with you Buddyboy, a solicitor should cost less than the FB bill. Thanks everyone


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## Early Riser (13 Apr 2021)

What about recovering the cost of your car? Was it in a storm or a normal day? If not a storm you probably have a claim against the landowner. You solicitor will probably ask you.


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## Leo (13 Apr 2021)

Early Riser said:


> If not a storm you probably have a claim against the landowner. You solicitor will probably ask you.


You still have to prove negligence on the part of the land owner for this to work. This will likely involve hiring an arborist to inspect other trees on the land to form an opinion on whether the are in an obviously dangerous condition. 

From above it sounds like the council did speak to the land owner and decided either no liability existed, or that the OP was an easier target.


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## Leo (13 Apr 2021)

sharkattack said:


> Don't we pay property tax for services like FB.



No, you don't!


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## Peanuts20 (13 Apr 2021)

Section 70 of the 1993 Roads Act states
_The owner or occupier of land shall take all reasonable steps to ensure that a tree, shrub, hedge or other vegetation on the land is not a hazard or potential hazard to persons using a public road and that it does not obstruct or interfere with the safe use of a public road or the maintenance of a public road._

So you would need to be able to prove that the farmer had not taken reasonable steps, possibly that the Council had not issued him with a maintenance order or if they had that he had ignored it. I'm surprised your Insurance Company has not reached out seeking the Land owners details as if the landowner had not taken reasonable steps, then potentially he is liable not just for the call out charges but also the cost of the write off of your car.


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## Sunny (13 Apr 2021)

Morty1 said:


> Morning, thanks for all your advice. The tree fell from the ditch onto the bonnet while I was driving. I have tried to explain my point of view to the local authority in writing, but they dismissed my point of view. So I'm going to hand all the paperwork over to a solicitor. I agree with you Buddyboy, a solicitor should cost less than the FB bill. Thanks everyone



What Brendan says above is spot on. Why are you incurring a legal bill when you don't have to? Tell them you are not paying and get them to initiate legal action if they want to. Then you can go to a solicitor if they do which is highly unlikely. You go to a solicitor now and the whole thing will be drawn out while they swap expensive letters.


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## Hierro (16 Apr 2021)

+1 with wait and see.
Playing defence here is the smart move. If the council come looking through court related debt recovery, instruct a solicitor.

The only caveat i put to that is that the council would have a right to recover costs, if successful. I saw a litter fine of €250 cost €2150 when costs were added.


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## Hooverfish (17 Apr 2021)

OP has not stated weather conditions at the time of the accident?


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## Leo (19 Apr 2021)

Hooverfish said:


> OP has not stated weather conditions at the time of the accident?



True, but I presume they would have mentioned if they were driving through a significant storm.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (19 Apr 2021)

Leo said:


> or that the OP was an easier target.


It's this.

They know that every motorist has insurance and that thousands of claims for fire brigade call-outs are paid by insurance companies out every year.


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## shweeney (19 Apr 2021)

Hooverfish said:


> OP has not stated weather conditions at the time of the accident?



he stated:



> There had been a storm the previous evening, and the fire brigade were busy all day clearing trees.



so it sounds like the tree was dislodged by a storm but only fell afterwards. In which case it's probably not the fault of the landowner, the council, or the OP, it's just one of those things that happens.

Do all councils bill for FB callout, or does it differ from county to county?


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## Leo (19 Apr 2021)

shweeney said:


> Do all councils bill for FB callout, or does it differ from county to county?



Most authorities charge it, and the rates vary from one authority to another.


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## Ravima (20 Apr 2021)

Local Authorities do offer a waiver if there is hardship. 

Rather than saying 'no, take me to court', could you approach them and see if they will do a deal? If you do go to court and lose, then you will be facing a larger bill as you will have to pay local authority expenses as well as your own.


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