# Stress At Work & Rights of Worker



## IrishGunner (7 Jun 2005)

What are the regulations in relation to Stress at work? It’s in relation to a worker who has taken off first 4 months previously but is back in work over a year. They have recently suffered it again and were off for 2 weeks.
Then when they rang they where told that they where going to be demoted. They are not a manager but they are not an admin. The person wanted to check with the Citizen Advise Bureau are these the correct people? Also they feel that a demotion would be very demoralising on them and may cause them to leave. They feel with the growth of the company and business that more work has come in but no new staff have been taken on thus the increase in stress

What are their rights?


----------



## ajapale (7 Jun 2005)

Is your friend a member of a trade union?

The following link is from Impact and might be a good starting point.

  [broken link removed]



> Employers are legally obliged to control workplace stress, just as they must control any other workplace health hazard. The 1989 Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act obliges them to identify and safeguard against all risks to health and safety. All places of work must have a safety programme written down in a safety statement. The potential hazard of stress must be addressed when compiling a safety statement.


----------



## ClubMan (7 Jun 2005)

IrishGunner said:
			
		

> The person wanted to check with the Citizen Advise Bureau are these the correct people?



They might help but a better bet might be the DETE Employment Rights section.


----------



## IrishGunner (7 Jun 2005)

Hi

They are not in a Union as its an office job in a big company that 'dont have' unions

Any ideas on rights ? Have they the authority to demote using this as an excuse ?


----------



## Rujib (7 Jun 2005)

Hi,

I would have thought it would be necessary for the company to demote such an employee in a competitive environment. 
Stress is far too much of a catch all cop out for malingerers. I am not suggesting the the person in this case is malingering but from an employers point of view it would not be possible to survive where an inordinate number of employees were to take stress as a valid reason for absenteeism.
In any case an employer can terminate an employment contract where the person employed in unable to do the job he/she is contracted to do. Being on regular or extended sick leave through stress would make the employee fall into such a category.

Rujib


----------



## IrishGunner (7 Jun 2005)

Hi

Well you can rest assure they are not a malingerers.They have the certs to prove anxiety They have suggested to management that they do not have adequate staff for the job. There was over 16 hours overtime in one month where there should be less than 5. Also no lunch breaks. Any person would be stressed out with that. They feel the company are trying to undermine them and trying to 'force' them out. They are capable of doing the job but the job has expanded to include other duties and no extra help has been offered, They did mention this. They feel a demotion would undermine them and not help?


----------



## ajapale (7 Jun 2005)

Hi IG,

I googled for stress at work and got this interesting article Stress at Work and the (UK) Law.



> Increasingly, people are taking employers to court to claim compensation for damage to their health caused by stress.



I think you might have two questions:

1/ How does a non unionised workforce deal with a overly stressfull work environment?

2/ What are the circumstances under which an employer can be demote an employee?

I suggest that the answer to the first question lies in the Health and Safety Legislation and the answer to the second lies in the Employment Rights Leglistation mentioned above.

ajapale


----------



## Purple (8 Jun 2005)

How many other people in the same environment have suffered from stress to such an extent that it requires months of leave?
If this is common in this office should it be the Health and Safety inspectors that are called in?
16 hours of overtime in a month is bugger all. If that's a source of stress then your friend should ask them self if they are able to cope in a normal working environment.
As Rujib pointed out the niceties of labour law are all very well but the company has to survive within the environment it finds itself. If the industry norm is a stressful environment with long hours then that's the level that the company has to work at to survive. That's international competition for you.   
If one of my employees took four months off with stress I would do everything I could to get rid of them as they would be endangering the jobs of all those around them.


----------



## armitage (8 Jun 2005)

16 hours overtime in a month sometimes I would work 16 hours overtime in a week. I work in IT and near completion dates it would not be unusual work 12 hour days for 1-2 weeks

tell this person to join the real world


----------



## IrishGunner (8 Jun 2005)

Well thank god I dont work for you. If you go to the H&S website you will see the effects of stress on the modern office. At the end of the day the company only look after themselves but they do have certain obligations to adhere to. 

Also they may take into account constructive dismissal and judging by your comments you may end up in court yourself

I would rather you give advise and not just a rant


----------



## CMCR (8 Jun 2005)

It is somewhat concerning that some of the posters above take such a dim view of stress-related illness and appear to question it's validity as a medical condition. Irrespective of your views, employees rights in Ireland are protected by law. 

Where an employee has more than 1 year's continuous service, they are protected under the Unfair Dismissals Acts 1977 - 2001. Dismissal of such employees are unfair unless there are substantive grounds for their dismissal. One of these grounds is where the dismissal is due to the incapability of the employee to do the work they were employed to do. You should also be aware (particularly those of you who are employers) that even if an employee doesn't have the required continuous service required under the Unfair Dismissals Acts, they may still be protected under the Employment Equality Acts 1998 - 2004.

I could go on at length to explain all the various issues here, but I'll just end on the following. If an employee is suffering from a mental health/psychiatric illness triggered by stress, the appropriate way to deal with their return to work, could be to introduce a phased return to work or a modification of the employees duties. 

It was suggested in the question - the employee has been notified of a demotion. I suggest the employer is on very dodgy ground here. Remember - 
(a) changes to a contract of employment must be by agreement between employer and employee - unilateral changes are not allowed by the law. The Courts in addition take a dim view of such breaches of contract. 
(b) if this employee then leaves because of what occurred - the employee may have a case against the employer for constructive dismissal 
(c) it could be argued that this employee is being penalised (i.e., they are suffering a demotion) and are thereby being discriminated against for having a stress-related illness. They may have very strong grounds for a case under Equality legislation. 

On a final note - I would strongly advise this employee (and indeed employer) seek legal advice before proceeding any further. Staff in your nearest Citizen Information Centre may be useful to explain the various procedures in terms of taking a case to the Labour Court but they are generally not qualified to offer specific legal advice to customers. 

Hope this helps.


----------



## Rujib (8 Jun 2005)

Irish Gunner,

I must say I agree with Armitage. I work for a US manufacturing multinational, and would consider 16 hours overtime in a month to be bone idle. We have to compete on the world stage against competitors in low cost countries. If we decide to get "all stressed out" we have our lunch eaten by the competition, whilst we are in bed on foot of doctors cert.

It's tough, but it is great to have a real competitive job.

You know, I always think that the time of the year that we all hear most about stress is at Easter when the teachers unions have their conferences. They all sit around for a week and complain about their stressed filled lives and jobs.

Makes me sick to be honest. We all have stress for petes sake, but that dose not mean we can slink off to the doctor and get a cert to stay off work for a week or 6 weeks.

Make no mistake, stress is a cop out for people who do not want to put their shoulders to the wheel.


----------



## ajapale (8 Jun 2005)

CMCR,

Thanks for yet another very good post in reply to the question concerning employees rights and work related stress.


Armitage, Purple and Rujib.

May I respectfully ask that you post general observations and rants in the LOS forum. The strict "question and answer" format has served us well in this "Careers and Employment" section over the last few years and I would like to see it build into a useful resource for employees, employers, students and unemployed people in time.

Thanks,

ajapale


----------



## IrishGunner (8 Jun 2005)

ajapale said:
			
		

> CMCR,
> 
> Thanks for yet another very good post in reply to the question concerning employees rights and work related stress.
> 
> ...



*I must also agree with this

Thank you for the genuine replies*


----------



## Rujib (8 Jun 2005)

Ajapale,

Ok no problem. I do not agree that I was ranting however. I gave a firmly held view. 

Rgds


----------



## IrishGunner (9 Jun 2005)

The company said that they will take them back as a junior and not a senior and that when they come back in they will discuss it. The person in question feels that by going in they are accepting their terms. They also
feel that the duties of a junior do not deviate that much from the work of a senior. They feel that the company are not addressing the 'real' problem and that they need more staff or delegate the work out. They feel that down the line the same 'excessive overtime and no lunch issue' will arise again They dont want to mention the 'legal' obligations of the company but feel they are merely brushing the issue under the carpet
They did mention that work has increased and thus the reason for the extra stress but where told that management dont feel this
They where told by management that the employee is only concerned by what other people think in relation to 'status' However the employee feels that they have worked in the company over 9 years and they would feel a sense of being 'undermined'


----------



## Purple (9 Jun 2005)

OK Ajapale, fair point.


----------



## CMCR (9 Jun 2005)

To re-iterate my previous message - this company (in my opinion) are proposing a significant change to the employee's terms and conditions of employment, without the permission of the employee.  Again - such changes may only be implemented by agreement and the law is there to protect them.  There are other fundamental issues this employee needs to consider: 

(a)  Given they are to be 'demoted' without their agreement, what implications will this have for their pay, annual leave, pension (if any) and other entitlements? 

(b)  What exactly will the nature of their new job (should they accept it) be and career-wise how will this affect them in the long-term? 

It may be worth noting, in February 2005 there was a landmark decision by the Labour Court where an employee was awarded €57,900 where they were found to have been discriminated against by their employer, on the basis of a psychiatric illness (that included stress). You can read about this decision here: 
http://www.equality.ie/index.asp?locID=135&docID=236

Again - I reiterate this employee should seek legal advice before making any decision or agreeing to anything.  Given they have been employed by this employer for 9 years, they will be covered by unfair dismissals legislation. 

If contracting a solicitor might seem too costly (and it doesn't have to be), the employee could go along to their nearest Free Legal Advice (FLAC) evening where qualified barristers and solicitors give legal advice (FREE OF CHARGE).  You don't have to fill out any forms, give any personal information and all advice is in confidence.

Staff in your nearest Citizens Information Centre can advise on when the next Free Legal Advice evening will be held.


----------



## IrishGunner (9 Jun 2005)

Thank You CMCR for the advice

There is no change in their holiday / pay bonuses etc but they feel that that for any future opportunities would be limited, due to the 'demotion'
Not that they know of as with the promotion there was no increase in wages due to a consulting suvey going on re salarys??
So would there be a change in T&C ?? 

The case has some interesting reading

They are happy in their job and dont want to mention legal threats, for fear of reprocussions, but then again its within their rights

They just felt if they did return that is a indication that they are accepting the new terms


----------



## legend99 (9 Jun 2005)

"May I respectfully ask that you post general observations and rants in the LOS forum. The strict "question and answer" format has served us well in this "Careers and Employment" section over the last few years and I would like to see it build into a useful resource for employees, employers, students and unemployed people in time."


I back Armitage in fairness and the others who gave their opinion on what was asked

A question was asked. In general in all these forums there is always a body of opinion as opposed to a body of fact submitted as answers. There is also generally a body of past experiences thrown in by other regular users. 
The question was thrown out there, the facts of 16 hours per month of overtime was submitted as part of the facts supporting the case and people then answered that specific point.


----------



## Purple (9 Jun 2005)

The advice that is being given here to the person in question includes seeking legal advice. At the moment it seems the employer has not made an issue of the stress leave but if it was brought to court then the doctor who wrote the sick cert would be questioned and other people in the same office will be called as witnesses. In this context the stress levels and absenteeism levels of others in the same environment are relevant. If everyone else is happy and not stressed out then I would be slow to kick up about it.
Your friend also has to take into account that their employer is running a business and as such has a duty to the business and the other people who work there to put the best people in the best positions. If the position that your friend was working in is too stressful for them it doesn’t seem unreasonable to move them to another position, especially if their wages etc are not affected.
Has your friend requested a meeting with his/her manager to sort things out/ seek reassurances in an informal setting?
Given that it may not be possible to employ additional staff to reduce the workload on your friend what solution have they proposed?
I repeat that less than one hour average overtime a day should not cause a stress level that requires 4 months off work so that is not the problem.



> Well thank god I dont work for you. If you go to the H&S website you will see the effects of stress on the modern office. At the end of the day the company only look after themselves but they do have certain obligations to adhere to.
> Also they may take into account constructive dismissal and judging by your comments you may end up in court yourself
> I would rather you give advise and not just a rant


For the record we are in business nearly 40 years, are non-union and have never had a days strike or a single walk out.
We have been taken to court 3 times in the last 15 years and have won each time.
Every one here works hard and expects everyone else to pull his or her own weight.


----------



## casiopea (9 Jun 2005)

Hi IrishGunner.

I hope your friend/colleauge resolves this issue to his/her satisfaction. 

I recently had a similiar situation with someone on my team.  As far as Im aware there is no way someone can be "demoted" formally (pay cut etc) in this scenario however it does mean that opportunites and promoted going forward are limited.  

You mention your friend is happy in their job.  I think I really would advise this friend of yours to reconsider his/her position in the company.  This companies rythms are not going to change. Suffering from anxiety can be very frightening and clearly the environment this person works in aggrevates it.  In 2 years time or 18 months time this person could easily be back on sick leave. This is no way to lead a life. In short I feel he/she should look for a job where this stress can be allivated. Easier said than done I know but this is the ultimate solution.

cas.


----------



## IrishGunner (9 Jun 2005)

They may seek to get legal advice.
They just feel that although there is no change in wages etc that with this 'demotion' they would feel* 'undermined'* in relation to any other opportunities that may arise
I agree with you that they should move to a less stressful position but they feel the position offered would cause just as much stress. They do have a meeting with their manager & Personnel Officer to try and sort things out
I agree they are concerned about the 'business' but they are not happy with the companys offer. 
Hopefully some compromise can come out of it and that the company see both sides of the coin as 'stress' is a new word in the workplace in the tiger economy of Ireland


----------



## Marie (9 Jun 2005)

Hi!  As a public services employee working for an employing hospital whose Occupational Health Department up till recently held 'there was no such thing as stress' (and is now delivering seminars to employees on how to handle it!) I resonate with this issue.

The question appears to be one of 'objectivity' versus 'subjectivity' - fact versus feeling.  The employer appears not to be hearing this employee's statement that his/her workload has increased appreciably and s(he) can't keep up (and is subsequently experiencing 'stress' i.e. a sense of failure, hopelessness, exhaustion, depression........)  

So three things; as previous posters said, the employer cannot demote without the employee's agreement.  If the employee were to return to  work and immediately begin a 'time-and-motion' exercise on his/her work which could be presented in black-and-white to management in support of the claim that the work has increased to an un-do-able proportion then management _must_ respond by putting help in place!  This exercise would also address the issue brought up by a number of posters about the 'subjectivity' of the sense of stress.  Monitoring his/her workload in this way gives the employee a factual picture of how the day's work is done, what takes how much time, etc.  This can be very helpful and revealing and move towards a solution of the problem if and when management put help in place.

Hope your friend will be OK.  Stress _is _real, it is insidious and it makes life miserable but there are ways to address it.


----------



## IrishGunner (14 Jun 2005)

Hi

In the end they decided to take the less senior role and agreed with Personnel that this will be reviewed in 6 months time
It can be difficult for an employee to mention_ 'legally I am entitled'_ as they want to stay in the company and dont want any complications
However in this case a compromise was reached with both parties happy with the outcome

Thanks to all those who advised and to those who do not think *Stress* is real well you dont know until you have experienced it


----------

