# New pharmacy rules restricting sale of codeine products



## truthseeker (9 Aug 2010)

I dont get it - I agree the sale of these products should be restricted (I know a number of people whose use of Solphadeine is just crazy).

But all thats happening is a Q&A session/lecture in the pharmacy, no one details are recorded and the assessment made by whoever is behind the counter is subjective at best.

So whats to stop me going to 10 different pharmacies, having the Q&A/lecture in all of them - but still gaining access to loads of Solphadeine?

Its a bit half measured - why not just make codeine products prescription only?


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## Caveat (9 Aug 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Its a bit half measured - why not just make codeine products prescription only?


 
Considering our general eagerness to "get in line" with the rest of Europe, it's a bit strange. Try buying codeine in a pharmacy in Spain, France etc and they'll look at you like you're some sort of junkie!


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## roker (9 Aug 2010)

The more drugs that are on prescription the more it cost us for doctor fees; I suspect that this is what it is all about. Years ago they stopped the sale of aspirin in large quantities, then it was Parectamol, we were only allowed one packet; this was supposedly to stop people committing suicide, but as the previous post said, yyou could go to more than one chemist shop.
I occationally rely on Solpadine/Syndol for Migraine , I also find that a bottle of Codeine is the only thing that cures a cough in winter, but I am no way addicted. We are already paying over the top for drugs in this country.


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## truthseeker (9 Aug 2010)

What gets me is that its such a half measure - either sell me the medicine or dont, but stop questioning me like Im an imbecile when I try to buy them. I dont particularly want to discuss my period pains (or any other pains for that matter) at a public counter with any number of my neighbours standing round listening in.

It also seems to me to be a bit of a farce when you look at the numbers of alcoholics staggering round the country yet no one is challenging their usage when they go buy a bottle of spirits a day in the off licence - ditto smoking.


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## lou2 (9 Aug 2010)

I was in a local chemist at the weekend waiting to pay for an item and had to listen to the pharmacist question a fella about why he wanted the solpadeine. He had to list out all the meds he was currently on, which included Prothiaden (an antidepressant). I tried to move away as much as possible without being obvious but I felt very embarrassed for the young guy and was a bit mortified myself that I couldn't extricate myself easily from the situation. Surely there is a better way to do this? These kind of situations need more privacy.


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## Emiso (10 Aug 2010)

I think these products should be prescription only. The inappropriate use of Solpadeine and other products containing codeine is staggering. These new regulations are a joke as there's nothing to stop someone going to 10 different chemists.

I was waiting on a prescription a few weeks ago and at least 10 consecutive people came in to buy solpadeine. When I remarked on this the assistant said that it's a huge issue


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## ophelia (10 Aug 2010)

Nobody should have to stand at a busy Pharmacy counter and be questioned in public on their drug taking habits. By law, all pharmacies must have a customer consultation area where they can talk in private - this is part of the condition of having a GMS contract. I would refuse to answer any questions unless they can provide this.
As regards Solpadeine  and other meds containing Codeine - frankly, something had to be done. Loads of people are addicted to Codeine and it is not being used properly. It will make people more aware of the dangers, and it will also educate the customer on a more suitable painkiller. It will be interesting to see if this will slow the sale of Codeine- Containing products.


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## Sunny (10 Aug 2010)

You could make Codeine a prescription drug but do you really want a case where people have to go to a doctor to get a prescription for panadol? GP's are under enough pressure as it is. 
I think having it as a behind the counter drug is the only way. Not a perfect solution though


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## ophelia (10 Aug 2010)

Sunny said:


> You could make Codeine a prescription drug but do you really want a case where people have to go to a doctor to get a prescription for panadol? GP's are under enough pressure as it is.
> I think having it as a behind the counter drug is the only way. Not a perfect solution though


Just to clarify - Panadol/Paracetamol is not in the same category as Codeine - as regards addiction potential.


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## Dicette (10 Aug 2010)

FYI - I'd scanned this thread quickly yesterday. This morning at about 7.45am I heard Ian Dempsey talk about online debate re the new regulations for Codeine - he took several quotes all of which seemed to be directly from this thread!


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## Sunny (10 Aug 2010)

ophelia said:


> Just to clarify - Panadol/Paracetamol is not in the same category as Codeine - as regards addiction potential.



Isn't paracetamol abuse one of the biggest causes of liver failure and accounts for the majority of drug overdose deaths in many countries. Also codeine is often used in combination with other ingredients so if you were to make codeine itself a prescription drug, you would need to go the doctor to buy panadol extra. (open to correction on this)


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## huskerdu (10 Aug 2010)

Sunny said:


> Isn't paracetamol abuse one of the biggest causes of liver failure and accounts for the majority of drug overdose deaths in many countries. Also codeine is often used in combination with other ingredients so if you were to make codeine itself a prescription drug, you would need to go the doctor to buy panadol extra. (open to correction on this)



Panadol is paracetamol. I assume Panadol extra is paracetamol with a bit of codiene added. 

Paracetamol is not addictive, but it is easy to overdose and  is so easy to get and use that it is a cause of accidental liver damage.  Plenty of people dont know that there is LOADS of paracetamol in Lemsip, so take it and Panadol for a cold. Therefore, it can only be sold in blister packs of 12 or 24 to avoid accidental overdoses and to restrict easy access to those who might attempt suicide using it.  Supermarkets can only sell one product to you. Pharmacists can if they are sure you understand what you are buying. 

Codiene is addictive - The restrictions on it sale are to make it more difficult for people to buy lots and to make them aware that it is a serious and potentially dangerous drug. If it were prescription, then the use of panadol extra / solpodiene etc would wither and die and a lot of the sales of this are to people who dont really need it, or have an addiction. 

If you get a mild headache everyday and solpadiene is the only thing that works, chances are that the headache is caused by codiene withdrawal. 

I do agree that the current rules will not stop does who are overusing codiene , it makes it more inconvenient but people who want drugs badly enough will put up with a bit of inconvenience. Harder on those in small
villages and towns with access to only one pharmacy.


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## Pique318 (17 Oct 2010)

I went into Boots to buy Solpadeine for my wife who had bad period pains over the weekend.
I asked the assistant for a pack and got the 'Do you know the restrictions?' spiel. Told her, 'yes, I know that codeine is an opiate, and is addictive, but can I have them please?'.
She went to the pharmacist (who was speaking to a colleague 10ft away) and spoke to her and then came back and said that my wife would have to come in and speak to the pharmacist herself.
I asked her if it was it illegal for me to buy Solpadeine and was told that it was 'their policy' as they were for my wife, and not me. I said they were for her 'now' but if I needed a painkiller, I would also be using them. 
I was still refused. 
By that point I was quite angry. I felt like I was a junkie, trying to persuade the chemist to give me a fix of Methadone before I was due to receive one, and basically told them to stuff it if they didn't want to sell them, I'd buy them elsewhere.

Afterwards, I was livid when I thought about it and am now thinking about emailing Boots Head Office to find out about any policies they have on the sale of Solpadeine, outside of that imposed by law. I'll not be returning to that store, except to have a word with the chemist in person.

btw, I got the Methadone....sorry, Solpadeine, from another private chemist. I told them the same story, and that I knew about the dangers of Codeine addiction etc. 
No problem.


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## mathepac (18 Oct 2010)

roker said:


> ...  I also find that a bottle of Codeine is the only thing that cures a cough in winter, ...


Codeine (or a related drug) does not cure a cough. The drugs merely act at a symptomatic level as cough suppressants.


truthseeker said:


> ... It also seems to me to be a bit of a  farce when you look at the numbers of alcoholics staggering round the  country yet no one is challenging their usage when they go buy a bottle  of spirits a day in the off licence - ditto smoking.


That's an  invalid comparison IMHO. Alcohol and tobacco are not health-care  products / medicines and the guidelines for sale / supply of them are  not the remit of the pharmacists or the .


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## mathepac (18 Oct 2010)

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the full guidance document and  responses received to the draft guidance are available as downloadable  PDFs at the bottom of the page above.


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## truthseeker (18 Oct 2010)

mathepac said:


> That's an invalid comparison IMHO. Alcohol and tobacco are not health-care products / medicines and the guidelines for sale / supply of them are not the remit of the pharmacists or the .


 
I was using the comparison purely for the purposes of something someone can become addicted to (like codeine) - and also because prior the current guidelines some people were using codeine containing products recreationally and not for medicinal purposes - allegedly.

It seems to me to be a bit of a random event on whether or not one can buy these products easily now, I was subjected to a full scale public interrogation for some syndol for a muscle strain, but a few weeks later was handed over a packet of solphadeine for my father in law with no questions asked at all. Seems to depend on the chemist tbh.

Pique318 - Ive personally found that small local single branch chemists are far more likely to sell the stuff to you than large multi branchs - perhaps because the small local depends on regular customers to stay alive, whereas the larger chains in shopping centres get more irregular footfall.


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## Yachtie (18 Oct 2010)

I went to buy Neurofen + for my husband who threw out his back a few weeks ago. It's an old injury and goes to physio but couldn't get an appointment for a few days on this one occasion. 

The pharmacist came out from behind the screen and started questioning me about intended use and I explained it to him. He spent about 5 minutes explaining how codeine is addictive and another 5 minutes trying to flog me regular Neurofen and Deep Heat spray. I was starting to lose my patience and told him that my husband is at home in excrutiating pain, 'minding' a lively infant he can't even pick up and I had no intention of buying anything other than I was asked to get as I didn't fancy being sent back. Eventually I got it but it was hard work.


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## Latrade (19 Oct 2010)

Taking codine products as directed is fine. I don't see why yet again, a small few who can't follow simple instructions mean the rest of the population are nannied.

Of course the media loved the "addictive after 3 days", but that was pure bull anyway. They based that on the manufacturers statement to not take for more than three days. The reason wasn't because you become addicted, the reason was that this medication is only for minor, temporary ailments, if you've a headache lasting more than 3 days you should see a doctor anyway, not self-prescribe for weeks and months.

You do not get a codine or opiate "buzz" based upon the recommended dose, you only get that if you take in excess of the recommendation. 

So thanks to all this, because I can't take any ibuprofen, my early autumn need for solpadeine as the only painkiller that works on my dodgy shoulder that flairs up this time every year for a week is now the subject of practically an internal examination.

Even though I've been going the same pharmacist for years. Even though she knows why I need the solpadeine, what it's for and that it's only 5 days, I have to go through this cross examination.


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## truthseeker (19 Oct 2010)

Latrade said:


> I don't see why yet again, a small few who can't follow simple instructions mean the rest of the population are nannied.


 
Id like to see proper statistics on this. I read one article (that I cant find now) that gave the figure of codeine addicts as something like 84. 

Im not too clear on why we are being nannied over 84 eejits who like to pop the XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX too often.

Not only that - but in some places you cannot get the medication even if you have the symtoms its recommended for! I was in the medicine section of a Boots recently and I overheard a lady asking for Solpadeine for her period pains (yes I heard the entire consultation, no privacy at all). After an interrogation where she was offered other products that she claimed she had tried before and that they did not work for her - she was refused the solpadeine and left empty handed. 

Now the last time I read the back of a packet of solpadeine it stated it was for use for period pains. So this person actually had the symptoms the stuff is designed for yet wasnt allowed to buy it!


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## Mel (19 Oct 2010)

There's a board that I read sometimes, for Irish mothers, magicmum.com.
There are a couple of threads on there about solpadeine, and they make for frightening reading - some of the posters, and their relatives, who have 'mild' codeine addictions, going through several packets each week. 

I don't agree with how the restrictions work either, I often take Nurofen+ for a shoulder problem (physiotherapist advised it to reduce inflammation) but I think the problem is actually more widespread than most people realise.


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## missdaisy (19 Oct 2010)

truthseeker said:


> I was in the medicine section of a Boots recently and I overheard a lady asking for Solpadeine for her period pains (yes I heard the entire consultation, no privacy at all). After an interrogation where she was offered other products that she claimed she had tried before and that they did not work for her - she was refused the solpadeine and left empty handed.


 
Boots seem to be particularly rigorous. I popped in one morning on my way to work to buy neurofen plus, I suffer from very bad period pain. I was quizzed by the male pharmacist at the counter, I then asked him for feminax. He wasn't keen to give me this either but did sell it to me. I only need to take 2/4 painkillers every month/couple of months depending and I didn't appreciate the quizzing about period pain at the counter.


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## truthseeker (19 Oct 2010)

Mel said:


> I don't agree with how the restrictions work either......but I think the problem is actually more widespread than most people realise.


 
I agree with both points above. It is a widespread problem, and it does need to be addressed, but the manner in which it is being addressed is just frustrating for people with a genuine issue who dont have an addiction problem.

And lets face it, its a half measure, I pass around 9 chemists on my way home from work, there is nothing to stop me going to each of them, telling a convincing story about period cramps and back strain and procuring a packet of solpadeine in each of them. 

If it was such a problem and codeine was causing so much addiction the stuff would have been made prescription only and lined the GPs pockets a bit more on top of 'saving' the addicts from themselves.


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## Mel (19 Oct 2010)

truthseeker said:


> And lets face it, its a half measure, I pass around 9 chemists on my way home from work, there is nothing to stop me going to each of them, telling a convincing story about period cramps and back strain and procuring a packet of solpadeine in each of them.
> 
> If it was such a problem and codeine was causing so much addiction the stuff would have been made prescription only and lined the GPs pockets a bit more on top of 'saving' the addicts from themselves.


 
I agree, but I do think getting a prescription is a bit expensive for everyday aches and pains. 
In the USA I remember having to produce a driver's licence to get a flu remedy that contained paracetemol - I think the system was centralised to all pharmacies in the area, and I presume flagged if someone was purchasing dangerous amounts. Not exactly sure how it worked, but there was obviously some level of control in place.


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## truthseeker (19 Oct 2010)

Mel said:


> I agree, but I do think getting a prescription is a bit expensive for everyday aches and pains.
> In the USA I remember having to produce a driver's licence to get a flu remedy that contained paracetemol - I think the system was centralised to all pharmacies in the area, and I presume flagged if someone was purchasing dangerous amounts. Not exactly sure how it worked, but there was obviously some level of control in place.


 
I think a prescription for ordinary aches and pains is OTT as well - but itd save the judgemental invasive questioning in public - which results in not even being given the medication in some cases!

The situation you describe with the drivers licence above would be the perfect solution, but dont you know thats too good of an idea to implement!!


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## Latrade (19 Oct 2010)

truthseeker said:


> The situation you describe with the drivers licence above would be the perfect solution, but dont you know thats too good of an idea to implement!!


 
To be honest I see that systems as being even more invasive and worrying. First, I don't see it as anyone's business what painkilling medication I buy (not it should also be pointed out that all painkillers have levels of addiction equal to codine ones, it isn't the ingredients people get addicted to but the effects) and possibly for what reasons. Especially with the record of official bodies handling personal data in this State.

The vast, vast majority of people are able to go about their lives sensibly and take on board the advice given on labels, we should just leave it at that.


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## truthseeker (19 Oct 2010)

Well Latrade - while I also agree with you that we should just be left alone to take personal responsibility, if there is a genuine medical concern that people are abusing painkillers, and some kind of a system is to be put in place, Id prefer it to be a sensible non judgemental type of system rather than the subjective half measure thats been implemented.

Purely on a practical basis, when my parents were alive I did quite a bit of their shopping for them as theyd no car and there were mobility issues - so Id buy their solpadeine if needed - now according to new rules youre not allowed to buy it for someone else, the person has to present themselves. How many old people or people with mobility issues are now being suffering with minor aches and pains needlessly as a result of the new rules?


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## Kitten (19 Oct 2010)

I picked up Analgi plus in Lanzarote, each nurafen plus tablet has 12% codeine but this has 30% in each tablet, I was only sold 1 box of 20 but didn't have a grilling. I had planned on visiting a few more pharmacies whilst on holiday but never got around to it. They are very good but I'd be pretty slow to take them, had a back problem for a bit and needed something but all fine now so they are on the top shelf.


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## roker (20 Oct 2010)

I have used Solpadine and Syndol for years for migraine, I was refused by Boots the other day, they tried to give me Panadol ( they reduced these to 1 packet some time back) which I know are not as effective so I bought Syndol somewhere else after a grilling.  I only need possibly 2 x 2 doses in a day, every week or more.  How anyone can get addicted to these is beyond my comprehension. This has really gone over the top.


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## truthseeker (20 Oct 2010)

roker said:


> .....they tried to give me Panadol.........which I know are not as effective....


 
This annoys me too. I dont want to waste money on something that I know doesnt work for me, I want to part with my hard earned cash on a medicine that I know works and that I know I can take without side effects (some pain killers give me an upset stomach).

Boots seem to be particularly militant.


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## lightswitch (21 Oct 2010)

I had a back injury a few months ago.  My GP gave me a prescription for ixprim which made me drowsy and did nothing much for the pain.  Neurofen + was the only thing that worked.  Friend had to get them for me in the pharmacy and was asked a few questions but did manage to get them (I was not in any positon to go myself).  I took them for 2 - 3 weeks, had zero impact on me other than to relieve the pain.  Maybe this addiction only effects some people.  Considering the country is awash with illegal drugs I do thing this is ott.


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## bren1916 (21 Oct 2010)

Suffering with a dose for a week now - on way home from work yesterday I headed into the local Pharmacy to by some Solpadine.
I know the assistant and asked for a pack, she then asked what they were for, who they were for etc and then had to ok it with the pharmacist who nodded ok.
Now, I was the only one in the shop but still felt more than a little uneasy.
When asked if a box of 12 would suffice - I changed my mind and bought 24 (least I won't need to go through that again for a year).. Jeez!!


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## lightswitch (22 Oct 2010)

And yet you could buy the full stock of alcohol and cigarettes in any Supermarket and no one would bat an eyelid, well they would, but you know what I mean


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