# How does Ireland compare with Greece, Britain and other countries?



## Brendan Burgess (19 Apr 2010)

Is there any good summary article which compares the financial standing of the different countries, ideally in tabular form. I am thinking along the following lines but I am not sure what the best measures are. 



|Ireland|Greece|UK|America
GDP|||
Debt/GDP|||
Deficit/GDP|||


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## PeterBrennan (19 Apr 2010)

Bear in mind that Ireland's GDP is heavily distorted by multinational output. GNP is a better measure. 

In any case there is always a wide std deviation on these numbers due to the widely different fudges applied to the measurements. I am not sure if these comparisons are much more than a discussion of accounting gimmicks.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Apr 2010)

Excellent points. But because the job is difficult, doesn't mean we should not attempt it. 

We can give the basic figures and then comment on them.


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## ivuernis (19 Apr 2010)

The debt/GDP doesn't always give the full picture either. There was a very interesting graph in last week's *[broken link removed]* (third graph) showing debt/GDP ratios but also the full net liabilities when you include things like pension liabilities and health obligations.


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## ringledman (19 Apr 2010)

Whichever measure you use; the whole 'West' is technically bankrupt.


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## Sunny (20 Apr 2010)

ringledman said:


> Whichever measure you use; the whole 'West' is technically bankrupt.


 
Are you trying to set a record to see how many different threads you can say the same thing?

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=136444

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=136353

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=136319

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=136203

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=134487

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=130790


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## galwegian44 (20 Apr 2010)

Sorry folks, looks like I have to format my table a little better so we can see it. It looked good in the editor just before I posted.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a start on the table, fill in the blanks as appropriate.

Billions*2009**2010 (Estimate)**GDP **Total Debt**Total Debt %**Deficit**Deficit %**GDP **Total Debt**Total Debt %**Deficit**Deficit %**Ireland*61%10.75%80%13%*UK*£84859.9%£18012.8%72.7%*USA*$14.3$12.587%9.9%$14.5$14.597.5%11.3%*Greece*113%12.7%*Spain*51.8%11.4%59.2%*Portugal*76.6%9.3%85%*Italy*115.3%121.1%*Germany*79.4%3.2%86.6%€85*France*74.9%7.9%80.3%8.2%



Brendan Burgess said:


> Is there any good summary article which compares the financial standing of the different countries, ideally in tabular form. I am thinking along the following lines but I am not sure what the best measures are.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ringledman (20 Apr 2010)

Sunny said:


> Are you trying to set a record to see how many different threads you can say the same thing?


 
Hey? A common theme runs through my threads because it is the truth and something that both the world's governments or daily press wish to ignore.

Perhaps you should try contributing to the debate rather than wasting your time selectively pasting some of my previous posts.

Get with the 21st century and the huge changes that are  underfoot.

The West is facing a structural shift and loss of power and wealth; not a cyclical recession where things will return to how they were.


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## Purple (20 Apr 2010)

For most of the last 1000 years China has been the world dominant economic power. When Marco-Polo visited the Empire of the Great Khan China produced over two thirds of the worlds manufactured goods.


The world is simply returning to the norm.

Europe (which includes North America for these discussions) had 300 years. Time is up.


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## ronanlyons (21 Apr 2010)

Purple said:


> For most of the last 1000 years China has been the world dominant economic power. When Marco-Polo visited the Empire of the Great Khan China produced over two thirds of the worlds manufactured goods.
> 
> The world is simply returning to the norm.
> 
> Europe (which includes North America for these discussions) had 300 years. Time is up.


Hmm, not sure how much economic history you've read. Four dominant spheres of human activity for long periods were Western Europe, Middle East, India and China - but I'm not sure how that's a guide to future economic growth. For example, by your argument, we should be reverting to the Roman Empire any century now!

Back on topic, I think the question perhaps needs slightly better definition. Are we only talking about government finances/sovereign risk? If so, there are a number of investor tools used to compare countries. Brendan, if you want to PM me, I can send you a table I've developed that compares all 27 OECD countries across ten headings - not sure how best otherwise to put it in here.

The UK comes out worst, but that could change if you didn't like some of the headings/wanted to add in more.


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## Chris (26 Apr 2010)

There are some interesting projections on debt/gdp ratios made in a research paper by the BIS:
http://www.bis.org/publ/othp09.pdf?noframes=1

Typical for a central bank institution though, it falls short of even mentioning that inflation is a monetary phenomenon, with increasing prices a symptom of monetary inflation. Basically the BIS is stating that sovereign debt in the industrial world is undermining central banks' ability to controll inflation, when in fact they are the source of inflation.
Nevertheless, there are some interesting charts, statistics and projections.


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## Purple (27 Apr 2010)

ronanlyons said:


> Hmm, not sure how much economic history you've read.


 I read history rather than economic history but the tow are inseparable, “Hmmm’s notwithstanding. 



ronanlyons said:


> Four dominant spheres of human activity for long periods were Western Europe, Middle East, India and China - but I'm not sure how that's a guide to future economic growth.


 I’d love to know when, for any sustained period, the Middle East had a greater economic output than China. 



ronanlyons said:


> For example, by your argument, we should be reverting to the Roman Empire any century now!


 How so?

Western Europe dominated for a few hundred years because it was more advanced technologically (in ship building as much as militarily) and had better financial structures but for most of history the areas who dominated were always those areas with the largest population. That, as much as banking crises, unsustainable borrowing or laziness, is why the West has had its day and the next century (or centuries) belong to Asia.


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