# London's Burning



## horusd (8 Aug 2011)

What on earth is happening in London? The violence appears to be spreading daily, and the rioters seem to ignore the police. 

There are incidents breaking out right around London. Looks like the Police need help. See [broken link removed]

Doesn't look great for London tourism or the olympics.


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## thedaras (8 Aug 2011)

It appears it started as a peaceful protest against the police,who had shot a 29 year old man..It has been said that he was armed,altough that is what is unclear.

In the last few minutes it was revealed that the bullet in the policemans radio and the bullet which killed the man,are both from the same weapon,the policemans weapon.

It looks to me like a bunch of opportunists/scumbags,who are basically causing trouble,and looting, taking away from the original intention of the march,which was to get answers..


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## Guest105 (8 Aug 2011)

Poverty, overcrowded accommodation, mass unemployment and deprivation is everywhere in these poor areas. For every job available in Tottenham there are 50 applicants and in the recent austerity measures, services for young people in the area have been cut by 75% . The dole is £65 a week, the poor people are starving hence the looting and violence. The shooting of the young man last Thursday evening was the catalyst that flamed the tensions that were already building up across the city. 
This has the potential to get very ugly unless they can do something to contain the violence. How they are going to manage this is going to be very difficult when police budgets have already been cut by 20%, they are just not enough police in some of the areas that are currently been targeted. It must be very demoralising for them when they lives are put in so much danger.


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## BillK (8 Aug 2011)

Saw on the news tonight that due to the carpet store going up in flames 26 families who lived in the apartments over the store are now homeless.


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## Guest105 (8 Aug 2011)

BillK said:


> Saw on the news tonight that due to the carpet store going up in flames 26 families who lived in the apartments over the store are now homeless.


 
Is this the carpetright store in the Tottenham Retail Park that they were referring to? 
I know where the place is and it got burnt down alright but there were no apartments over it so the news got that one wrong for sure.

I just notice it is the CarpetRight place on Tottenham High Road that got burnt down and it did have apartments overhead.


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## The_Banker (8 Aug 2011)

On BBC now saying that the riots have spread to Birmingham.


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## Knuttell (8 Aug 2011)

In situations like that,martial law should be enforced in that area,the soldiers sent in and the looters/rioters shot on sight.


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## micmclo (8 Aug 2011)

Libya rises up for democracy, London rises up for new shoes and plasma TV's

I don't know London well but while it was in the North at the beginning, it's went to North and South today and now Ilford in the East is kicking off.
Birmingham too and there were a few tweets and reports of Leeds

Legal advice


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## Guest105 (8 Aug 2011)

The_Banker said:


> On BBC now saying that the riots have spread to Birmingham.


 
Several shops being attacked in Birmingham, this is really awful.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-consider-banning-Notting-Hill-carnival.html


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## roker (8 Aug 2011)

What is worrying is that these people are walking around amongst us everyday, If they are not afraid of the police, what can they get up to?

Why have the police not got water cannons? they are just out running the police on foot


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## The_Banker (8 Aug 2011)

David Cameron just reported to have boarded a plane to come home from holiday. 

The thugs must be quaking in there boots.


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## Guest105 (8 Aug 2011)

The_Banker said:


> David Cameron just reported to have boarded a plane to come home from holiday.
> 
> The thugs must be quaking in there boots.


 
Your kidding right?


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## RMCF (8 Aug 2011)

Of course situations like this are always hijacked by the scumbags.

I don't see how stealing a TV out of a store has anything at all to do with protesting about the death of a local resident.

I hope there's plenty of CCTV footage to get these gits convicted.


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## onq (8 Aug 2011)

cashier said:


> Poverty, overcrowded accommodation, mass unemployment and deprivation is everywhere in these poor areas. For every job available in Tottenham there are 50 applicants and in the recent austerity measures, services for young people in the area have been cut by 75% . The dole is £65 a week, the poor people are starving hence the looting and violence. The shooting of the young man last Thursday evening was the catalyst that flamed the tensions that were already building up across the city.
> This has the potential to get very ugly unless they can do something to contain the violence. How they are going to manage this is going to be very difficult when police budgets have already been cut by 20%, they are just not enough police in some of the areas that are currently been targeted. It must be very demoralising for them when they lives are put in so much danger.



Perhaps this will give pause for thought to the politicians in power at the moment and the right wing employers on AAM who advocate cutting the social welfare payments across the board with serious implications for those who need them and marginal impact on the chancers who are already earning on the blakc economy.

The reason Ireland hasn't rioted at the present level of austerity is that people can just about get by on what they have and some are eking out their war chests to get through this economic mess. If people start falling four and five months behind on utility payments because of idiotic price rises agreed by the so-called Regulator, and social welfare payments are further reduced, then perhaps we'll see riots in front of government buildings in Dublin the autumn.

Governments should remember they are in power with the consent of the governed and the recent tide that swept Fine Gael and Labour into power will suddenly turn on them if they fail to deliver 


a working banking system
jobs and
economic growth.
We've had nearly three years of crap to deal with, seeing no hardship being suffered or criminal cases brought against the people who defrauded the revenue and the shareholders and beggared our economy.

I doubt people will put up with much more of Enda Kenny's pontification about recovery and Noonan wittering on about paper profits and balance of payments recovery if the scenes outside the Roscommon Hospital on the RTE news at 9.00 tonight were anything to go by.

ONQ.


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## onq (8 Aug 2011)

Knuttell said:


> In situations like that,martial law should be enforced in that area,the soldiers sent in and the looters/rioters shot on sight.



Easy to see how some people lost the run of themselves in the Tiger years if they were as dislocated from reality as this post suggests.

ONQ.


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## Guest105 (8 Aug 2011)

Knuttell said:


> In situations like that,martial law should be enforced in that area,the soldiers sent in and the looters/rioters shot on sight.


 

Does this statement make you feel good?


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## Lex Foutish (8 Aug 2011)

Knuttell said:


> In situations like that,martial law should be enforced in that area,the soldiers sent in and the looters/rioters shot on sight.


 
From next Saturday, everything will die down because they'll all be back at White Hart Lane, The Emirates Stadium, Stamford Bridge, etc. 

I'm happy to report that no Leeds fans were spotted amongst the rioters and looters.


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## Sunny (8 Aug 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> From next Saturday, everything will die down because they'll all be back at White Hart Lane, The Emirates Stadium, Stamford Bridge, etc.
> 
> I'm happy to report that no Leeds fans were spotted amongst the rioters and looters.



Is that not because they are all pretty much in prison already?


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## Lex Foutish (8 Aug 2011)

Sunny said:


> Is that not because they are all pretty much in prison already?


 
Whatever do you mean, Sunny? Leeds fans are always impecabbly well behaved. The best in the world. Just ask Alex Ferguson.


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## thedaras (8 Aug 2011)

Sunny said:


> Is that not because they are all pretty much in prison already?



lol..


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## RMCF (8 Aug 2011)

cashier said:


> Poverty, overcrowded accommodation, mass unemployment and deprivation is everywhere in these poor areas. *For every job available in Tottenham there are 50 applicants* and in the recent austerity measures, services for young people in the area have been cut by 75% . The dole is £65 a week, the *poor people are starving* hence the looting and violence. The shooting of the young man last Thursday evening was the catalyst that flamed the tensions that were already building up across the city.



1) That figure isn't too bad. Worse in NW Ireland, 57 applicants for each job.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-14151766

2) Are people in Britain actually starving? Really? 
Pehaps if they give up their Sky subscription they could afford food.


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## Knuttell (8 Aug 2011)

onq said:


> Easy to see how some people lost the run of themselves in the Tiger years if they were as dislocated from reality as this post suggests.
> 
> ONQ.



That makes zero sense??

If this was the North the air would be bouncing with rubber bullets and a few live round for good measure,there is no deterrent for these scumbags,not even the chance of a police charge,if I was a property owner or businessman watching my premises go up in flames I would be pretty annoyed,the only one dislocated from reality is as usual yourself.


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## horusd (9 Aug 2011)

Rioting now also in Bermingham. I can see this thuggery spreading to other cities as rent-a-mobs take advantage. I don't understand why the Police reaction hasn't been far stronger. They need to stamp this out with force. Police should be drafted in from other areas to restore control and discourage more of the same. It must be terrifying for residents.


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## Sunny (9 Aug 2011)

horusd said:


> Rioting now also in Bermingham. I can see this thuggery spreading to other cities as rent-a-mobs take advantage. I don't understand why the Police reaction hasn't been far stronger. They need to stamp this out with force. Police should be drafted in from other areas to restore control and discourage more of the same. It must be terrifying for residents.


 
I think they drafted in who they can. Police have to be trained to deal with riots so presume there is a limited number. This is the criticism of rough police tactics coming back to bite people in the ass. They are afraid to do anything at this stage. I suppose they run the risk of starting a proper war if they do engage. I think there will be a warning today and a much tougher repsonse tonight if there is trouble. 

Shocking pictures though. I lived in Clapham for a while and it is a great spot. Couldn't believe what I was seeing last night.


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## Firefly (9 Aug 2011)

onq said:


> Perhaps this will give pause for thought to the politicians in power at the moment and the right wing employers on AAM who advocate cutting the social welfare payments across the board with serious implications for those who need them and marginal impact on the chancers who are already earning on the blakc economy.
> ONQ.



Hi ONQ,

I'd rather a few riots than my children paying more tax for our over-spending.


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## Latrade (9 Aug 2011)

If this is about social injustice or a community that is ignored, why are these people attacking their own community? Why not take it out on the source of the injustice? What has the guy who's sold you milk all your life got to do with this? So why has his place been burnt to the ground?

Why demonstrate who much injustice you feel by only smashing up shops that sell nice stuff? Funny that Waterstones is left untouched yet every electrical shop or sportswear shop is cleared out. 

Jean Charles de Menezes was shot in 2007, he wasn't carrying any weapons, there were no riots then. 

If these kids want to be angry then look at their own parents. What kind of parents sit there while their kids burn down the highstreet and don't do something about it? Their parents are probably putting in orders for tvs and xboxes. 

Their anger at social injustice is an anger at what they expect to be entitled to not what they've earned or could earn. So look also at the "community leaders" who fuel their sense of entitlement and whip up the anger.


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## Sunny (9 Aug 2011)

They are just scumbags. No different to the idiots who rioted in Dublin a couple of years ago.


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## Firefly (9 Aug 2011)

Latrade said:


> If these kids want to be angry then look at their own parents. What kind of parents sit there while their kids burn down the highstreet and don't do something about it? Their parents are probably putting in orders for tvs and xboxes.



Lots of new leccy items on ebay soon for the police to take a look at


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## JP1234 (9 Aug 2011)

Latrade said:


> If this is about social injustice or a community that is ignored, why are these people attacking their own community? Why not take it out on the source of the injustice? What has the guy who's sold you milk all your life got to do with this? So why has his place been burnt to the ground?
> 
> Why demonstrate who much injustice you feel by only smashing up shops that sell nice stuff? Funny that Waterstones is left untouched yet every electrical shop or sportswear shop is cleared out.
> 
> .



There was a pharmacist on the news last night who said he begged them to leave his premises and thankfully they did...he obviously got lucky.

They are targeting JD sports apparently now!

You do have to wonder about the parents, if I was in that situation I would not allow my child to go out of the house. There was a shot on Sky news yesterday of a couple of children, maybe 11/12 years old and 2 older women who could possibly be their mother(s) all filling shopping trolleys, what hope is there is the adults cannot show restraint.

I am not surprised by the police response, I imagine they are so worried about going in heavy handed because the response will be "they overreacted" I think they are in a no win situation, they are either going to be accused of either not doing enough and letting it happen or using too much force.  I would not be surprised to see the army and water cannons deployed soon. 

It is absolutely disgraceful that it took 3 days for the PM and Mayor to come back off their holidays too.

My heart breaks for the people and families who have lost their homes and businesses, I hope the community gives those scumbags who burnt down homes what they deserve.


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## Latrade (9 Aug 2011)

JP1234 said:


> My heart breaks for the people and families who have lost their homes and businesses, I hope the community gives those scumbags who burnt down homes what they deserve.


 
The community let this happen. Everyone one of them out there jumping around and waving while the news cameras on are, everyone of them that's standing there with their kids recording it on their mobile phones. All of them let this happen. Everyone of them who doesn't give a damn that their kid is out there doing this. 

But it's fine because the "community leaders" come out and rant that it's the rest of society's fault, we can't blame the scumbags or their parents. It's great that the most of society is just scraping by, doing their best to not only be a good parent, but feed, clothe and house their kids and it's their fault that more money isn't taken off them and pumped into giving the lazy, deadbeat parents a playground or community hall for them to not give a damn about their kids never being at home and so their kids can also trash and vandalise.


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## horusd (9 Aug 2011)

I was watching Sky News reporting from Clapham. The reporter was from there, and you could see the stunned look on his face. What's striking is the impunity that these thugs and yobs have. 

The thuggery has been tagged onto the killing of that bloke Duggan (who apparently wasn't the most savoury character anyway). There is a rush to "explain" it in terms of race and poverty. I heard a community worker compare it to the fecking storming of the Bastille! Oh for God's sake. This is nothing but criminal yobs out of control with a fig-leaf of an excuse enabling them to go on a wrecking and robbing spree. 

Someone's going to get killed or badly hurt, probably some old people. The lawful residents of these places need the police to act decisively. They have rights too.


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## Sunny (9 Aug 2011)

Will be interesting to see what the reaction would be if the police did respond decisively. Bet you would still have these bleeding heart liberals coming out calling for inquiries into the abuse of civil rights blah blah blah. The water cannon and rubber bullets should have been out last night. Can understand why the police didn't but these people declared war on the ordinary people and police of London. Good practice for the Olympics anyway.


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## Shawady (9 Aug 2011)

The England football team are supposed to be playing Holland in a friendly. You can imagine thousands of dutch fans in the middle of the london riots!


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## Firefly (9 Aug 2011)

The question for us is....will it spread here...I wonder if the shinners are busy this morning


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## JP1234 (9 Aug 2011)

Latrade said:


> The community let this happen. Everyone one of them out there jumping around and waving while the news cameras on are, everyone of them that's standing there with their kids recording it on their mobile phones. All of them let this happen. Everyone of them who doesn't give a damn that their kid is out there doing this.
> 
> But it's fine because the "community leaders" come out and rant that it's the rest of society's fault, we can't blame the scumbags or their parents. It's great that the most of society is just scraping by, doing their best to not only be a good parent, but feed, clothe and house their kids and it's their fault that more money isn't taken off them and pumped into giving the lazy, deadbeat parents a playground or community hall for them to not give a damn about their kids never being at home and so their kids can also trash and vandalise.


#

I do agree with you, as I said before, there were adults and children jointly helping themselves to the goodies. There were 2 "community leaders" on I think it was BBC news last night and they could not have been more different, one was as you describe, blaming everyone but the thugs, while the other was unequivocal in pointing the finger at the parents and community leaders who found excuses for the behaviour.


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## JP1234 (9 Aug 2011)

Sunny said:


> Will be interesting to see what the reaction would be if the police did respond decisively. .



This footage of a looter being caught by the police....interesting reaction from the onlookers!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwwOXaik4L4&feature=youtu.be


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## elefantfresh (9 Aug 2011)

That video just underlines what we all know already. Normal folk are not doing this - its just the usual scumbags. 
Tough one for the cops to balance though. Go in hard, take the flack from the loony lefty guys. Try and be peaceful about it, the normal folk lose.


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## DB74 (9 Aug 2011)

They should just go in hard and put a stop to it

Screw the liberals


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## oldnick (9 Aug 2011)

Cashier -you seemed not to approve of Knuttell's suggestion that looters be shot  on site. 

 Surely a few injured scumbags (I'd go for rubber bullets) would make their fellow looters and arsonists ponder whether they should continue destroying people's shops, homes and terrorising families including your children. 
Also,a quick, albeit brutal, stop to those activities may prevent the burning to death of those innocent families.

If the police don't start shooting rubber bullets property owners may start using real ones.

At the very least a few rubber bullets would act as an incentive for them to stay at home and play with their stolen computer games.


(P.S. Whilst I disagree with your views above I am lost in admiration of your amazingly brilliant best-buy money guides.)
best-buy guides


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## Firefly (9 Aug 2011)

DB74 said:


> They should just go in hard and put a stop to it
> 
> Screw the liberals




How could you..these are not scumbags, these are just poor unfortunates who, through no fault of their own, have ended up like this. What we need is to increase spending to educate these people and increase the supports available to them


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## truthseeker (9 Aug 2011)

Knuttell said:


> That makes zero sense??
> 
> If this was the North the air would be bouncing with rubber bullets and a few live round for good measure,there is no deterrent for these scumbags,not even the chance of a police charge,if I was a property owner or businessman watching my premises go up in flames I would be pretty annoyed,the only one dislocated from reality is as usual yourself.


 
Couldnt agree more. Reporter on Sky News queried today why water cannons are not being used, was told that there wouldnt be water cannons, but compassionate policing, reporter pointed out that water cannons etc used in NI no problem - so why not on streets of London!!


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## oldnick (9 Aug 2011)

firefly -as a compromise to your previous post  could one not say

These are scumbags through no fault of their own.

the activities of many of these "poor unfortunates" -whether burning down people's homes and shops, stealing the assets and destroying the livlihoods of small traders,
terrorising and endangering innocent people, throwing rocks at fire-engines etc etc are the activities  of scumbags.

Whether it is their fault or not that they have turned into scumbags is another question and you may well be right in suggesting better education and other support.
But at present the fact is they are acting like scumbags.


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## Firefly (9 Aug 2011)

oldnick said:


> firefly -as a compromise to your previous post  could one not say
> 
> These are scumbags through no fault of their own.
> 
> ...




Hi Oldnick, I was being sarcastic. They ARE scumbags and should be rounded & tagged.


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## elefantfresh (9 Aug 2011)

Could we bar-code them?


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## Firefly (9 Aug 2011)

elefantfresh said:


> Could we bar-code them?



What about sending them with the rest of the rubbish that is recycled abroad...maybe they might come back as something?


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## Guest105 (9 Aug 2011)

oldnick said:


> (P.S. Whilst I disagree with your views above I am lost in admiration of your amazingly brilliant best-buy money guides.)
> best-buy guides


 

Can I ask you to please refrain from being sarcastic and remember don't ever *make assumptions* based on one's user name for my career is very far removed from the banking world.


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## shnaek (9 Aug 2011)

These are the children of the labour government - Tony Blair's children you could call them. Children brought up with no sense of responsibility, respect or decency. The entitled generation. 
And the UK is the country with the most surveillance in the world. Who exactly are they watching?
The law is there to take taxes from the middle classes. If anyone needs to be woken up to that, then take a look at the UK. The law is certainly not there to contain violent thugs, who will be so encouraged by their successes with this rioting that they will grow up to be model citizens indeed. Children without fear of law or respect for society - UK labours work realised.


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## JP1234 (9 Aug 2011)

Firefly said:


> What about sending them with the rest of the rubbish that is recycled abroad...maybe they might come back as something?




My husband suggested they be sent to an open prison in Glasgow and see how long they last....


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## elefantfresh (9 Aug 2011)

I was just sent this
Hard to fathom how some people think.


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## flossie (9 Aug 2011)

England V Netherlands game called off......

I fell asleep watching Sky News last night......really scary stuff.


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## Firefly (9 Aug 2011)

JP1234 said:


> My husband suggested they be sent to an open prison in Glasgow and see how long they last....



Maybe they could make it into a reality TV series...

"I'm a scumbag, get me outta here"


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## Shawady (9 Aug 2011)

flossie said:


> England V Netherlands game called off......


 
I can understand why they did it but it's disgraceful that these thugs can cause the cancelation of a sporting event.


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## truthseeker (9 Aug 2011)

elefantfresh said:


> I was just sent this
> Hard to fathom how some people think.


 
Saw that footage linked on FB earlier, very very disturbing stuff.


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## JP1234 (9 Aug 2011)

elefantfresh said:


> I was just sent this
> Hard to fathom how some people think.



that's the total lack of humanity that brings me to tears...

I just had this image of a woman jumping from a burning building sent
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/08/article-2023874-0D5B629200000578-550_964x639.jpg


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## DB74 (9 Aug 2011)

There really is no place in modern society for these type of people

Death penalty is the only answer


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## oldnick (9 Aug 2011)

off topic - firefly /cashier.
Have just had ten minute explanation from daughter on meaning of smileys !

On topic -I dont know if its been reported on news but chatting to North London friends they tell me  that many of the local small shopkeepers are staying in their shops with male relatives tonight and will be be "better prepared" than their unlucky fellow traders in areas already attacked.

Many of these shopkeepers are tough fit Turks and Arabs who will defend their homes and shops.  They claim that many of their number -mainly Kurds around Tottenham/Seveven Sisters  - did fight last night with mobsters and beat them off. How true that is I don't know. But they are getting ready to resist attacks...


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## ney001 (9 Aug 2011)

Another man who was shot in Croydon has just died - this isn't going to get better any time soon!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14462693


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## flossie (9 Aug 2011)

There was a man interviewed on Sky News about 2 hours ago, some of his shops had been attacked. He was giving an account and kept going on about 'all of them were blacks', to which the reporter was trying to get him to retract this, saying things like "Well, not all of them, there were nationalities of all". He did finally retract with "OK, put it another way, thety weren't all black, i was the white person".

Hopefully this isn't going to become race orientated as well


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## Latrade (9 Aug 2011)

flossie said:


> There was a man interviewed on Sky News about 2 hours ago, some of his shops had been attacked. He was giving an account and kept going on about 'all of them were blacks', to which the reporter was trying to get him to retract this, saying things like "Well, not all of them, there were nationalities of all". He did finally retract with "OK, put it another way, thety weren't all black, i was the white person".
> 
> Hopefully this isn't going to become race orientated as well


 
While I agree and the photgraphs via the Met and observers show a broad mix of nationalities involved, both polarised wings of politics are making this a race issue.

The left are handwrigning too much about it being a race issue as an excuse and the right are fuelling further hatred in blaming it all on immigration (though the "non-whites" involved are likely to be at least 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants).

This was never about anger or politics.


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## ney001 (9 Aug 2011)

Not that it makes a difference in my opinion but taking a quick glance at the pictures of some of the rioters would suggest that its a very even spread between black and white.  Lot of girls seem to be involved as well!

[broken link removed]


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## DB74 (9 Aug 2011)

ney001 said:


> Not that it makes a difference in my opinion but taking a quick glance at the pictures of some of the rioters would suggest that its a very even spread between black and white.  Lot of girls seem to be involved as well!
> 
> [broken link removed]



I recognise the Colonel in Pic 5 of those Sky images!


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## micmclo (9 Aug 2011)

I blame Fianna Fáil for all this

They are to blame for everything


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## Firefly (9 Aug 2011)

DB74 said:


> I recognise the Colonel in Pic 5 of those Sky images!



And what do they break into...KFC


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## roker (9 Aug 2011)

I am not saying that I condone this, society has let this develop. The yobs have seen this sort of thing on TV and films for years, eg. Rambo does this sort of thing, They are numb to it. They also take part in voilence and shooting on their video games, that will be on the streets next.


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## thedaras (9 Aug 2011)

Thanks to Nob Nation for the following;


> Right Nobs, it's our turn to riot. Let's meet up under Cleary's Clock tonight and wreck the country!!! Oh wait, some blokes in suits got there first...


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## Firefly (9 Aug 2011)

roker said:


> *I am not saying that I condone this, society has let this develop. *The yobs have seen this sort of thing on TV and films for years, eg. Rambo does this sort of thing, They are numb to it. They also take part in voilence and shooting on their video games, that will be on the streets next.



How do you mean....just stand back whilst they injure innocent people and destroy private property?


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## elefantfresh (9 Aug 2011)

Oh great - we're off blaming movies and video games again...


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## RonanC (9 Aug 2011)

I feel very sorry for these poor deprived kids in their new trainers, covered in bling and the top fashion labels, oh and dont forget the blackberry's and Iphones... yeah right!!!


Scumbags every one of them !

Their parents should be locked up with them.


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## micmclo (9 Aug 2011)

Have any welfare offices being burned down?
I doubt it


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## horusd (9 Aug 2011)

RonanC said:


> I feel very sorry for these poor deprived kids in their new trainers, covered in bling and the top fashion labels, *oh and dont forget the blackberry's and Iphones... yeah right!!!*
> 
> 
> Scumbags every one of them !
> ...


 

I heard that Blackberry were very concerned that their network was being used  to facilitate the "late night shopping." This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wept.


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## Mongola (9 Aug 2011)

I am just after watching the news and I am absolutely HORRIFIED and nearly feel sick after seeing what is still going on in London. Whatever those thugs get: they will deserve it!!!!

There was a young man who was injured and a bit dazed obviously. A man bent over and looked like he was helping him until someone who looked like friend of his, opened the poor young man's backpack and helped himself. They have no morales, no intelligence whatsoever and are simply criminals!!!

I am soooo angry. I just can not believe that the human being is able to behave like that. They take pleasure in causing chaos and scaring everybody. 

Simply disgusting. It is very sad and you just feel powerless. We sit there and watch that but are not able to help.


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## Mongola (9 Aug 2011)

roker said:


> I am not saying that I condone this, society has let this develop. The yobs have seen this sort of thing on TV and films for years, eg. Rambo does this sort of thing, They are numb to it. They also take part in voilence and shooting on their video games, that will be on the streets next.



I agree with the fact that although it started with a racial issue, it is now nor racism nor political: it is pure destriction for the sake of it.
I think Roker is not completely wrong. I don't think it is the reason but I do think that many youngsters play violent games for endless hours. You will eventually start taking the virtual into the real world thinking that you can get away with it and it is ok. It is of course not. Again, let's not just blame the video games but I think it is food for thought. 

Also, where are the parents in all that? Many of them look like they are minors! So, where are they???? There is no responsibility whatsoever there. 

I think they should have a curfew! What does a child has to do on the streets after a certain hour? Nothing! 

As you can see, I am absolutely fuminggg!!!


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## horusd (9 Aug 2011)

I'd say the some of the PSNI have been on flights to London. These lads know a thing or two about sorting out riots.


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## monagt (9 Aug 2011)

Thats us in 25 years!


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## The_Banker (9 Aug 2011)

Supporters of various soccer clubs (Millwall, Charlton, Spurs) have grouped up and are protecting there local areas.

This was always going to happen in some shape or form after the free reign the looters were given over the last few nights.

Due to the massive amount of police in London tonight the place is "relatively" calm. However, Manchester, Wolverhamton and Birmingham are experiencing serious rioting and looting tonight.


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## horusd (10 Aug 2011)

Kids as young as 7 and 9 looting on the streets of Manchester. Who and where are the parents? These kids need to be taken into care.


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## Alwyn (10 Aug 2011)

These yobs and their parents have been spoonfeed by Labor for over a decade . . . reality has now sunk in.


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## csirl (10 Aug 2011)

monagt said:


> Thats us in 25 years!


 
Thats us after next Decembers budget cuts social welfare rates.


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## Pique318 (10 Aug 2011)

SW would take some cut to bring it down to the £65pw equivalent of the UK.


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## horusd (10 Aug 2011)

csirl said:


> Thats us after next Decembers budget cuts social welfare rates.


 

I don't think we have the same levels of deprivation in Ireland csirl. Or those large basin estates that seem to be the source of so much trouble in the UK. Anyhow, isn't there a commitment not to cut welfare here? 

Not wanting to speak for Monagt, but I took his/her post to refer to race/migration rather than welfare. There is a debate raging in the UK papers over whether this is or isn't race-related. 

See [broken link removed]  In the Telegraph.


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## shnaek (10 Aug 2011)

A thug is a thug, no matter what race or creed. They should all be dealt with in the same manner using the full force of the law - which in our society is a stern talking to. That will show them.


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## monagt (10 Aug 2011)

"Immigration did not cause our collapse, but the refusal to create an immigration policy was an intellectual companion to our populist failure to control our banks"

Interesting article.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...-common-a-lack-of-father-figures-2844058.html


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## Alwyn (10 Aug 2011)

Pique318 said:


> SW would take some cut to bring it down to the £65pw equivalent of the UK.


 
Three more IMF Budget Cuts and it mightn't be far off!


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## horusd (10 Aug 2011)

monagt said:


> "Immigration did not cause our collapse, but the refusal to create an immigration policy was an intellectual companion to our populist failure to control our banks"
> 
> Interesting article.
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...-common-a-lack-of-father-figures-2844058.html


 
That link is broken Monagt. Can you repost?


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## csirl (10 Aug 2011)

horusd said:


> I don't think we have the same levels of deprivation in Ireland csirl. Or those large basin estates that seem to be the source of so much trouble in the UK. Anyhow, isn't there a commitment not to cut welfare here?


 
I agree re: the levels of deprivation in some areas of the UK. However, a lot of the commentators are blaming the riots on the entitlement culture in these communities. I think that entitlement culture is much stronger in Ireland that the UK given that non-working people here seem to expect to be provided with more and in fact receive a lot more from the State than similar people in the UK. If entitlement culture is one of the root causes, then we'll get riots here when cuts are made.

While we dont have loads of high rise poor housing, there are still large swathes of west Dublin (Tallaght, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown) with large estates of poorly built/maintained properties where the majority of people seem to be dependant on welfare and thug culture rules.


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## Alwyn (10 Aug 2011)

Agree with your post Csirl.  

Our 'career choice unemployed' who have never worked a day in their life have yet to feel the brunt of this recession.  I shutter to think what will be the outcome when they realise the country can no longer afford to keep them in the lifestyle they have become accustomed to.


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## orka (10 Aug 2011)

csirl said:


> I agree re: the levels of deprivation in some areas of the UK. However, a lot of the commentators are blaming the riots on the entitlement culture in these communities. I think that entitlement culture is much stronger in Ireland that the UK given that non-working people here seem to expect to be provided with more and in fact receive a lot more from the State than similar people in the UK. If entitlement culture is one of the root causes, then we'll get riots here when cuts are made.
> 
> While we dont have loads of high rise poor housing, there are still large swathes of west Dublin (Tallaght, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown) with large estates of poorly built/maintained properties where the majority of people seem to be dependant on welfare and thug culture rules.


I think the entitlement culture is only part of it. I think a big contributor to the riots in the UK is the complete lack of moral compass for large groups of people - probably due to lack of a strong family unit and the UK's seeming obsession with not infringing human rights by imposing any kind of discipline or boundaries. I don't think we have that here (yet...) - authority figures (gardai, teachers) are generally respected and backed up by family - a kid knows they won't be able to tell a teacher to F-off without consequences. And if anyone was pictured on the front page of a newspaper running down a street with armfulls of looted stuff, there would be unhappy extended family and plenty of people willing to shop them to the gardai - whereas it seems that many of the looters in London were on a night out with their like-minded neighbours. 

It's hard to know how to fix the situation though - I remember an article a couple of years ago where a headmaster in the UK was pilloried (and I think forced to resign) because he described an underclass of 'uberchavs' who were essentially uneducatable. Education is the only way out and where 25/50/100 years ago families saw education as desirable and a way to improve their lot, that just doesn't exist anymore for many people. All quite depressing really.


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## bullbars (10 Aug 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_Blood_speech

A few media outlets even refering back Enoch Powells speech in 1968.


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## PaddyW (10 Aug 2011)

Get out the water cannons and plastic bullets. Maybe a few taser guns too.Let the lot of them have it and don't feel one bit sorry for them. They're a disgrace and only doing it out of pure badness, not for any cause. Well, sorry, their one cause being destruction and robbery.


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## monagt (10 Aug 2011)

Horus, cant find it! It was a good link

It looks like it was taken down by the Indo, looks like censorship by someone.

Google "feral-rioters-all-have-one-thing-in-common-a-lack-of-father-figures"


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## Mongola (10 Aug 2011)

Latrade said:


> If this is about social injustice or a community that is ignored, why are these people attacking their own community? Why not take it out on the source of the injustice? What has the guy who's sold you milk all your life got to do with this? So why has his place been burnt to the ground?
> 
> Why demonstrate who much injustice you feel by only smashing up shops that sell nice stuff? Funny that Waterstones is left untouched yet every electrical shop or sportswear shop is cleared out.
> 
> ...


 

Completely agree with this one. They are distroying their own communities. They probably do not feel part of it!
It was reported and also shown children very young talking part in these riots. 
??????????????????????????


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## csirl (10 Aug 2011)

orka said:


> I don't think we have that here (yet...) - authority figures (gardai, teachers) are generally respected and backed up by family - a kid knows they won't be able to tell a teacher to F-off without consequences. And if anyone was pictured on the front page of a newspaper running down a street with armfulls of looted stuff, there would be unhappy extended family and plenty of people willing to shop them to the gardai - whereas it seems that many of the looters in London were on a night out with their like-minded neighbours.


 
Hate to be the bearer of bad news....

My wife is a teacher in a relatively disadvantaged area - teachers get told to F-off and worse on a daily basis in her school. Minor assaults on staff are now common.

I was in a supermarket in a disadvantaged part of Dublin recently. A group of 7-8 teenagers in hoodies walked in, grabbed a load of alcohol off the shelves - as much as they could physicall carry and walked out the door without paying in full view of staff/customers. None of the local customers though anything of this - many of them though it was funny. What's even worse was the reaction of the staff - the women at the checkout I was queueing at laughed and said ".....fair plead of them.....".


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## oldnick (10 Aug 2011)

Having had my shops in ballyfermot, tallaght, Condalkin and Inner North city for the last 30 years until last year I can, with some knowledge, confirm and add to csirl's comments..

.. 30 years most kids had a mother and a father. I don't know the figures, but in the areas I know the number of kids with no family structure was frightening.

..30 years ago we (local shopkeepers and others) were not to scared to rebuke or even belt misbehaving teenagers.
 No way we'd do that now. We know we'd get a kicked in window ,or worse.

... 30 years ago we started to vaguely hear about drugs.  By the '90s we were often held up -usually at needlepoint and once at gun point.

.. many of these muggers were caught.We indentified them. they were up in court.And released on bail. 

I could go on  but you get the picture. We know that kids on irish estates throw rocks at fire engines and ambulances and local buses and have been doing so for years. What csirl says about thuggish robbing kids in hoodies is increasimngly more common.

Whether its the lack of fathers, the drugs or the fact that the state pays -rewards - single dumb teenager girsl to have kids I just don't know.

But when you're sitting in your shop and all day watch 16 year old slags, fags hanging out of their mouths, pushing prams whilsts creaming and swearing at their kids then ,yes, you become a grumpy old fascist like me. God help those kids.


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## Delboy (10 Aug 2011)

csirl said:


> Hate to be the bearer of bad news....
> 
> My wife is a teacher in a relatively disadvantaged area - teachers get told to F-off and worse on a daily basis in her school. Minor assaults on staff are now common.
> 
> .



a relation of mine has just started primary school teaching in a 'disadvantaged' area of west dub. It would both sadden and anger you in equal measure the stories she has to tell from her few months there
Kids coming to school hungry, parents not showing up to collect them in the evening. Some kids can't even speak properly as they are left in front of TV's all day with little or no interaction with their parents. Physical and verbal abuse of teachers by 5 and 6 year olds!!!

Some days when the teachers have to walk the kids home after another parent no-show, she gets to see the houses. Mostly nice houses in small recently built estates, all taxpayer funded of course, with big TV's and all the latest consoles etc lying around... and not exactly bangers parked outside the gaffs. But they can't even be bothered to bring their child home in the evening or even feed the kid in the morning.
It's scary what some kids have to grow up with...


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## monagt (10 Aug 2011)

[broken link removed]

Feral rioters all have one thing in common -- a lack of father figures

Who is censoring the Independent?? This article was removed within hours.


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## Firefly (10 Aug 2011)

Delboy said:


> a relation of mine has just started primary school teaching in a 'disadvantaged' area of west dub. It would both sadden and anger you in equal measure the stories she has to tell from her few months there
> Kids coming to school hungry, parents not showing up to collect them in the evening. Some kids can't even speak properly as they are left in front of TV's all day with little or no interaction with their parents. Physical and verbal abuse of teachers by 5 and 6 year olds!!!
> 
> Some days when the teachers have to walk the kids home after another parent no-show, she gets to see the houses. Mostly nice houses in small recently built estates, all taxpayer funded of course, with big TV's and all the latest consoles etc lying around... and not exactly bangers parked outside the gaffs. But they can't even be bothered to bring their child home in the evening or even feed the kid in the morning.
> It's scary what some kids have to grow up with...




As a parent this is quite upsetting. Even worse for those couples who cannot, for whatever reason, have children of their own to witness this abuse. And it is abuse.


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## Alwyn (10 Aug 2011)

Oldnick and Delboy have summed it all up. The welfare mentality has the country destroyed. I have retail business in some of the areas Oldnick mentioned. A birdseye view of the system. One of the shops is a stones throw from a prison so I am graced on occassion by grandmothers bringing their grandchildren to vistit the childrens fathers. A pathetic sight.  Should children be allowed anywhere near the inside of a prison?


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## oldnick (10 Aug 2011)

SORRY (SLIGHTLY) OFF TOPIC*...*
*firefly -*
_"even worse for those couples who cannot, for whatever reason, have children of their own ....."_ 
Absolutely right ! This explains my burning anger at the way society seems to think it's fine for single teenagers to have as many children as they want, but when those who can't have children apply for adoption they spend years going through the hoops.
I know because I'm one of those who applied for adoption. I was refused because of my age  - I was 45 wife 35. Fortunately, we went off to UK and applied there and eventually got the OK and now have a wonderful 17 year old daughter.

Can you imagine how we felt sitting in our shops watching ill-kept kids being shouted and sworn at by what appeared to be older children who were in fact their mothers, many of them smoking even when pregnant again. No dads in sight ,except a series of passing drug-addicted boyfriends.

(O.K. i know this looks like an OTT diatribe, like the Kevin Myers Mother-of-*******s article and I'm aware there are countless single mums doing a grand job)

We in the meantime had to go through years of waiting ,as do thousands of other respectable comfortable couples desperate to give a home to an abandoned baby, whilst social workers interview us, obtain police, financial and other records ("all in the interest of the child," mind you). 
In U.K. the wait ranges from 6mths to a year. in Ireland I gather it's now between 18mths to 30 mths (far better than 20 yrs ago) In both UK and Ireland the wait  depends on the area you live.

Sorry, moderator, you can strike this if you think it inappropriate. And I dont want to start an adoption forum.
Just wanted to highlight society's paradoxical attitude towards those who are able to give a child a good upbringing and those who are far less able -and it is this attItude that is contributing to the problems we see with many of today's youth here and U.K.


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## mick1960 (10 Aug 2011)

Most of the looting in the UK and Ireland started years ago and is still going on and the majority of the people responsible for it come from a stable background.When there is nothing to loot the looting stops. They then make the rest of the population  pay the bill for all the damage they've done ,Some live in tax havens and move on to loot somewhere  else, others stay in politics, others retire on the proceeds of their looting.
Sometimes the people at the bottom after being given such a great example riot.


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## Purple (10 Aug 2011)

mick1960 said:


> Most of the looting in the UK and Ireland started years ago and is still going on and the majority of the people responsible for it come from a stable background.When there is nothing to loot the looting stops. They then make the rest of the population  pay the bill for all the damage they've done ,Some live in tax havens and move on to loot somewhere  else, others stay in politics, others retire on the proceeds of their looting.
> Sometimes the people at the bottom after being given such a great example riot.



That makes it alright so


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## PaddyW (10 Aug 2011)

*London riots: residents cautioned over 'vigilantism' *

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14472484


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## mick1960 (10 Aug 2011)

Purple Can't see anything there about wrong and right.


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## oldnick (10 Aug 2011)

Mick -you make a fair point that everyone knows and agrees with.

We have all been expressing great anger at what has happened from the scumbags at the "top" of society. In the press,on internet and it's still going on.

And now in this particular thread  we are expressing great anger at what is happening from the scumbags who are mainly at the bottom of society. 

In both cases we - the majority of middle people - are too soft and easy-going .


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## mick1960 (10 Aug 2011)

To true all oldnick. I was making the point that it was argued that people from the lower incomes, from single parents, immigrant parents etc have more reason to be scumbags than people from privileged backgrounds,which is not the case. So do think the two social groups can be discussed together, because they are both as much to blame as to whats happening in the UK.


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## DrMoriarty (10 Aug 2011)

monagt said:


> Who is censoring the Independent?? This article was removed within hours.


Relax. You posted a broken link. Here's the great anthropologist's article.

On a lighter note, did anyone see the story about the two Kerry lads who broke into Ladbrokes last night and lost £50?


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## orka (10 Aug 2011)

DrMoriarty said:


> Relax. You posted a broken link. Here's the great anthropologist's article.


In fairness to monagt, the article was inaccessible online for a large part of the day - it wasn't simply a broken link issue.


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## oldnick (10 Aug 2011)

Mick- One could even  argue that those at the bottom actually have more reason to act like scumbags. Those at the top acting like scumbags are even worse as they have no poverty  and don't lack education or family support -and the reward  for their actions measures in millions as opposed to a TV set.

I think the concern of the "middle people" is the ever growing number of those at the bottom end and the more extreme actions of direct violence. We perceive that there is a direct physical threat to our families and homes and that this threat is growing.  

That is, the anger and fear one feels when a firebomb is thrown through one's window is not lessened by cognisance of the upper-class crimes also taking place. But you are most right to point the latter out so we don't forget them during the present social unrest. 
And,yes, I agree  at the end of the day, along with govnt policies and our own inaction,  the acts of the rich looters are partly blame them for those fire bombs.

You made a good thought provoking post in a few lines  compared to my never ending waffle.


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## DrMoriarty (10 Aug 2011)

orka said:


> In fairness to monagt, the article was inaccessible online for a large part of the day - it wasn't simply a broken link issue.


Ah. _Mea culpa_ (as KM might say...)


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## monagt (10 Aug 2011)

Mucho Gracias Orka 

It was a good link, I checked before I posted it and later it was taken off.

I wonder who's bright idea the censorship was - let him/her stand up and give a reason.


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## MrMan (10 Aug 2011)

mick1960 said:


> To true all oldnick. I was making the point that it was argued that people from the lower incomes, from single parents, immigrant parents etc have more reason to be scumbags than people from privileged backgrounds,which is not the case. So do think the two social groups can be discussed together, because they are both as much to blame as to whats happening in the UK.


 
young people are more prone to crime when they are deprived of a decent family, and if you feel that the current batch of 'scumbags' are only following the example of the 'middle/upper class looters', then can you tell me why do they never follow good examples? Why isn't there people ready to step up and try and better themselves?
It's too easy to look beyond the fact that there are workshy morally deficient idiots roaming the streets and offering nothing to society, moving the discussion back to 'the bankers and politicians are the antichrist' only helps to keep spinning a cycle of neverending moaning and little else.


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## Marion (10 Aug 2011)

As per Sky News @ 22:30


Who are the rioters?


Most are white with jobs. Apart of course from the 11-year old.



Marion


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## AgathaC (10 Aug 2011)

Delboy said:


> And they're good parents who work their ar$es off to provide a good home, education etc for their kids
> To me it looks like those in the middle will be a lot less in numbers in the future. And this has'nt really being debated or though about by our politicians or people in the media even. And I genuinely believe it's going to have a dramatic effect on the society we live in 20 years from now


Very true, and I believe that Ireland could have learned a lot from how/where things began to go so wrong in the UK, but we didn't. I sincerely hope that we will never see riots happen here but I wouldn't be sure that we won't.


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## horusd (11 Aug 2011)

Interesting article in today's _Telegraph._ Two small snippets:

“We wanted to show the police we could do what we wanted,” explained another looter moralist. “It’s the Government’s fault. Conservatives or something like that, yeah.”


"After the Arab Spring comes the summer of our discontent, made inglorious by that shaming comparison. *Young people in Egypt and Syria riot in the streets for freedom and hope, precious intangibles for which they were prepared to risk their own lives. English youths riot for the inalienable right to have £150 trainers and a flat-screen telly.* Material things for which they were happy to risk the lives of others. These kids of the ghetto and the jobless estates may not be worth much in society’s eyes, but here was their chance to shine: they could be the best at being bad. Suddenly they could scare people, and they tasted that power, and it felt good..."


Is this Cameron's sick society? Young people without any real values, parents who couldn't care less. This materialist society where kids measure themselves by their mobile phones, trainers and tracksuits.


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## callybags (11 Aug 2011)

One thing that disturbes me greatly about the whole rioting episode is the attitude of the British media- Sky mainly and BBC to a lesser extent.

Watching Sky last night, they were almost wetting themselves with excitement at the thoughts of another reporter and camera crew having to run for safety, or catching thugs on camera attacking the police.

You could hear the disappointment in their voices when all they had to report was that the police presence had things under control.

All they are doing is making celebrities out of low life thugs.


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## Sunny (11 Aug 2011)

callybags said:


> One thing that disturbes me greatly about the whole rioting episode is the attitude of the British media- Sky mainly and BBC to a lesser extent.
> 
> Watching Sky last night, they were almost wetting themselves with excitement at the thoughts of another reporter and camera crew having to run for safety, or catching thugs on camera attacking the police.
> 
> ...


 
To be fair, I was a bit disappointed. There was nothing else on tv. A few rioters getting shot with plastic bullets is better entertainment than what RTE just announced for their new tv schedule. I think there could be a reality tv show in here somewhere.


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## callybags (11 Aug 2011)

Headline from rte.ie 

*British parliament to debate rioting, looting*

Updated: 09:19, Thursday, 11 August 2011

Is this what things have come to?

You would think the elected government would be able to act in a dignified manner. But no, they just want to join in the night time fun.


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## DB74 (11 Aug 2011)

callybags said:


> All they are doing is making celebrities out of low life thugs.



Paul Williams has been doing that over here for the last 15 years


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## truthseeker (11 Aug 2011)

Sky news and BBC news - looters who have appeared befoee court, a primary school teahcer, a trainee social worker, a call centre employee, a postman - these are not the 'disadvantaged yoof'!!


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## shnaek (11 Aug 2011)

horusd said:


> Is this Cameron's sick society? Young people without any real values, parents who couldn't care less. This materialist society where kids measure themselves by their mobile phones, trainers and tracksuits.


It is the society of the labour governments creation.


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## Latrade (11 Aug 2011)

shnaek said:


> It is the society of the labour governments creation.


 
How true. Except for one thing, it's not only England or the UK that has this problem. We have it, America has it, Europe has it. I really don't think Tony Blair had that much influence when he was in power. 

Other than that, absolutely spot on.


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## Deiseblue (11 Aug 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Sky news and BBC news - looters who have appeared befoee court, a primary school teahcer, a trainee social worker, a call centre employee, a postman - these are not the 'disadvantaged yoof'!!



It's certainly interesting that the adults charged to date certainly do not fit into the expected demographic in that the majority are white & of those a number are employed or are full time students.

In the interest of fairness - a " gentleman " who worked in a primary school appeared in court , he is not a teacher.


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## monagt (11 Aug 2011)

> It is the society of the labour governments creation.



The party that has been in power for the current generation must be more culpable - Labour (eg, FF in Ireland)

Also, the Labour councils in the UK have destroyed the communities, have stalled real integration and wasted the tax payers money.

Why after Tony Blair reign is the UK economy a basket case? The ordinary Family know how to balance a budget and NOT get into unmaneagable debt.

So a bit off topic! and to return -
From an organic chef and an opera house steward to a university student, a surprising picture emerged on Wednesday of some of the alleged troublemakers behind Britain's worst riots for decades.
While many involved seemed to fit a picture of youngsters from broken families marginalised by society, the first court appearances of some of the more than 1,000 people arrested suggested a broader cross-section took part. Yahoo News

[broken link removed]

Interesting Stats


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## Sunny (11 Aug 2011)

This goes back a lot further than Tony Blair and Labour. How many communities did Thatcher destroy? The social problems did not just appear with the current generation. The seeds were planted well before now.


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## Latrade (11 Aug 2011)

It's getting serious now, Spurs/Everton game cancelled. Some reports saying Everton petitioned for it to be cancelled after fears from their fans that all the good stuff has already been stolen.


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## truthseeker (11 Aug 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> In the interest of fairness - a " gentleman " who worked in a primary school appeared in court , he is not a teacher.


 
Apologies Deise - thanks for the correction.

Interesting that the police have asked the media to 'film them as far down the streets as you can when they are leaving court'.


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## monagt (11 Aug 2011)

Sunny said:


> This goes back a lot further than Tony Blair and Labour. How many communities did Thatcher destroy? The social problems did not just appear with the current generation. The seeds were planted well before now.



What I was referring to was Labour council policies that have ended up with huge swathes of, for example, Pakistanis, where english is not spoken, they never interract with outsiders and so never become part of an overall society. 
Nice people but you would think a spaceship beamed them over last week.

Its like Apartheid in reverse (the separate development part)

When you think of English young men, who have never been out of England will bomb their fellow citizens over something happening in a remote part of the world. 
The same young men would be out of place over there.

Integration is the only way........................... not separate development cause its "their culture".

Off Topic again! ;(


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## DB74 (11 Aug 2011)

Latrade said:


> It's getting serious now, Spurs/Everton game cancelled. Some reports saying Everton petitioned for it to be cancelled after fears from their fans that all the good stuff has already been stolen.



Very funny


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## shnaek (11 Aug 2011)

Latrade said:


> It's getting serious now, Spurs/Everton game cancelled. Some reports saying Everton petitioned for it to be cancelled after fears from their fans that all the good stuff has already been stolen.



That's a real shame. I was hoping to see Spurs new signing - Grabatelly - in action.


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## Latrade (11 Aug 2011)

monagt said:


> What I was referring to was Labour council policies that have ended up with huge swathes of, for example, Pakistanis, where english is not spoken, they never interract with outsiders and so never become part of an overall society.
> Nice people but you would think a spaceship beamed them over last week.
> 
> Its like Apartheid in reverse (the separate development part)
> ...


 
You know that immigration and the establishment of immigrant ghettos went on before Tony Blair came into power? 

Those Asian based areas of Britain have been in place since at least the 60s, the kids involved from those areas are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants. 

Failure at immigration is first nothing new and second not to blame for these riots.


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## monagt (11 Aug 2011)

> You know that immigration and the establishment of immigrant ghettos went on before Tony Blair came into power?



Yes - Labour Councils I blamed.


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## mick1960 (11 Aug 2011)

MrMan said:


> young people are more prone to crime when they are deprived of a decent family, and if you feel that the current batch of 'scumbags' are only following the example of the 'middle/upper class looters', then can you tell me why do they never follow good examples? Why isn't there people ready to step up and try and better themselves?
> It's too easy to look beyond the fact that there are workshy morally deficient idiots roaming the streets and offering nothing to society, moving the discussion back to 'the bankers and politicians are the antichrist' only helps to keep spinning a cycle of neverending moaning and little else.



To para phrase you 
 people are more prone to crime when deprived of a decent family

So what is the excuse for those from privaliged family's.? 

workshy morally deficient idiots roaming the streets

And they are different from workshy morally deficient idiots roaming the corridors of power ?

offering nothing to society?

That is the sort of attitude that starts riots when adopted by the latter group.

There was no attempt on my part to move the discussion back to anything else.  You are watching on the TV and reading in the News, what happens when the 'never ending moaning' falls on deaf ears and stops.


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## mick1960 (12 Aug 2011)

Millionaire's daughter: _Laura Johnson_, _19, was charged with stealing_ £_5000_-worth of electronic goods


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## csirl (12 Aug 2011)

There were 100s of people arrested for looting. No doubt that a percentage were not from disadvantaged backgrounds. The media have quoted no more than a couple dozen cases of non-disadvantaged people who were arrested - as this is a better newstory than 100s of run of the mill petty criminals engaging in criminal behaviour. We are not being given any details of the 100s of others. I dont think that anyone can truely say that the bulk of the looters came from a mixture of backgrounds unless they have the circumstances of all those arrested, not just the aforementioned few.

As the saying goes, "one swallow doesnt make it summer..."


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## horusd (12 Aug 2011)

Some of those looters weren't just criminals they were damn stupid to boot. With so many CCTV cameras around the UK, you would think those muppets would have nicked a scarf and covered their faces. Doh! No wonder they're disadvantaged. There's no cure for stupidity.


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## MrMan (12 Aug 2011)

mick1960 said:


> To para phrase you
> people are more prone to crime when deprived of a decent family
> 
> So what is the excuse for those from privaliged family's.?
> ...



I said 'decent' family you seem to be equating the same with the financial circumstances of a family. As many of the people that have come out from the same communities to denounce the looters, it is obvious that decent families exist on both sides of the tracks. 

There are greedy mena nd women in power, and it has been discussed to death here and everywhere else, but mentioning them dilutes the discussion that is important here and that is how to deal with the criminality on display and how do we learn from it?

I don't quite get your last paragraph?


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## shnaek (12 Aug 2011)

MrMan said:


> I said 'decent' family you seem to be equating the same with the financial circumstances of a family. As many of the people that have come out from the same communities to denounce the looters, it is obvious that decent families exist on both sides of the tracks.



Hear hear. Society's values are what are called into question here. Not one section of society, but all of society. 
Do we value the cause of the thieves, murderers and thugs over the cause of the decent and the hardworking? 
Do we ask how we help the muggers, or how we help the families of the 5 (so far) who are dead, and the many whose lives have been destroyed?
Why is it so unfashionable to support ordinary law abiding citizens going about their lives and contributing positively to society?
It is nothing to do with financial circumstances. It is everything to do with responsibility and decency.


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## JP1234 (12 Aug 2011)

I am getting wholly fed up with these criminals being spoon fed the "it's not your fault, you are disadvantaged...." excuses, which they are then using to justify their actions.  Look at this from Sky News

[broken link removed]

16 year old stealing for his son!!!

I didn't have an easy childhood either  my father took off when we were young and we regularly went without meals, had holes in my shoes, no winter coat, and so on but I have never looted, robbed, rampaged.  Instead made the best life I could, don't own things we haven't paid for ourselve and have raised a fine young man with decency and values.

One comment I read yesterday was that for anyone convicted of looting the punishment should be that their victims are allowed to break down their front doors, ransack their house and steal all the good stuff...extreme and OTT yes, but hard not to agree it's what they deserve.


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## polo1 (12 Aug 2011)

JP1234 said:


> I am getting wholly fed up with these criminals being spoon fed the "it's not your fault, you are disadvantaged...." excuses, which they are then using to justify their actions. Look at this from Sky News
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> ...


 
I agree 100% on everything you said except the last sentence... which I sort of agree with but 2 wrongs never made a right
I think the persons who are responsible should be made clean up the streets paint sweep clean etc.. make them pay for what they done.. I am not sure that using the tax payers money locking them up in comfy prisons is the answer!


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## mick1960 (12 Aug 2011)

MrMan said:


> I said 'decent' family you seem to be equating the same with the financial circumstances of a family. As many of the people that have come out from the same communities to denounce the looters, it is obvious that decent families exist on both sides of the tracks.
> 
> There are greedy mena nd women in power, and it has been discussed to death here and everywhere else, but mentioning them dilutes the discussion that is important here and that is how to deal with the criminality on display and how do we learn from it?
> 
> I don't quite get your last paragraph?


 
Without going over old ground it is good to see that you now agree with me that decent family's exist everywhere,which is in contrast to your original post.

I think rather than diluting the argument it adds to the the general discussion about cause and the solution and you can learn from it.

As for not getting the last paragraph that is very strange because it is a  direct reply  to a statement from you. If you had 'got it' and were able to have a more holistic view of the problem and I would have been a bit more inclined to  discuss it further with you.


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## mick1960 (12 Aug 2011)

MrMan said:


> I said 'decent' family you seem to be equating the same with the financial circumstances of a family. As many of the people that have come out from the same communities to denounce the looters, it is obvious that decent families exist on both sides of the tracks.
> 
> There are greedy mena nd women in power, and it has been discussed to death here and everywhere else, but mentioning them dilutes the discussion that is important here and that is how to deal with the criminality on display and how do we learn from it?
> 
> I don't quite get your last paragraph?


 
Without going over old ground it is good to see that you now agree with me that decent family's exist everywhere,which is in contrast to your original post.

I think rather than diluting the argument it adds to the the general discussion about cause and the solution and you can learn from it.

As for not getting the last paragraph that is very strange because it is a  direct reply  to a statement from you. If you had 'got it' and were able to have a more holistic view off the problem I would have been a bit more inclined to  discuss it further with you.


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## JP1234 (12 Aug 2011)

polo1 said:


> I agree 100% on everything you said except the last sentence... which I sort of agree with but 2 wrongs never made a right
> I think the persons who are responsible should be made clean up the streets paint sweep clean etc.. make them pay for what they done.. I am not sure that using the tax payers money locking them up in comfy prisons is the answer!




I know what you mean. I don't for a minute think it would be the right thing to do, and I most likely wouldn't do something like that myself ( then again, who knows how I would feel if my home/business had been ransacked and burnt out) but I can understand the view people have that these hooligans deserve a taste of their own medicine.  Making them wear brightly coloured overalls and cleaning up the streets they destroyed sounds like a good start


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## Latrade (12 Aug 2011)

mick1960 said:


> Without going over old ground it is good to see that you now agree with me that decent family's exist everywhere,which is in contrast to your original post.
> 
> I think rather than diluting the argument it adds to the the general discussion about cause and the solution and you can learn from it.
> 
> As for not getting the last paragraph that is very strange because it is a direct reply to a statement from you. If you had 'got it' and were able to have a more holistic view of the problem and I would have been a bit more inclined to discuss it further with you.


 
I see nothing in Mr Man's original post that warrants your implication. He was talking about values and his views on the causes of this. He never referenced social class or regard in society or said that it was only a feature of one group of people.

So perhaps the attitude is a little unjustified.


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## Protocol (12 Aug 2011)

Poor parenting has a lot to do with it.

Parents *should* know where their under-18 children are all the time.


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## MrMan (12 Aug 2011)

mick1960 said:


> Without going over old ground it is good to see that you now agree with me that decent family's exist everywhere,which is in contrast to your original post.
> 
> I think rather than diluting the argument it adds to the the general discussion about cause and the solution and you can learn from it.
> 
> As for not getting the last paragraph that is very strange because it is a  direct reply  to a statement from you. If you had 'got it' and were able to have a more holistic view of the problem and I would have been a bit more inclined to  discuss it further with you.



Of course they exist everywhere, where did i say different?

I may have understood your previous paragraph if it made sense to the discussion under way. would you not like to educate me further or has your argument come to a dead end?


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## horusd (12 Aug 2011)

Protocol said:


> Poor parenting has a lot to do with it.
> 
> Parents *should* know where their under-18 children are all the time.


 

There was a report in _The Telegraph_ about a woman who saw her neighbours child looting on the telly. She rang the  mother, and got an earful for waking  her up.


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## AgathaC (12 Aug 2011)

shnaek said:


> do we value the cause of the thieves, murderers and thugs over the cause of the decent and the hardworking?
> Do we ask how we help the muggers, or how we help the families of the 5 (so far) who are dead, and the many whose lives have been destroyed?
> Why is it so unfashionable to support ordinary law abiding citizens going about their lives and contributing positively to society?
> It is nothing to do with financial circumstances. It is everything to do with responsibility and decency.


 +1.


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## oldnick (12 Aug 2011)

Shnaek's post implies that people on this thread or elsewhere are more sympathetic to the muggers than the victims. 

The premise of  sentences like "_ do we value the thugs ...over the decent etc ?"_   and "_why is it so unfashionable to support lawabiding ordinary citizens?"_  is that there are those who  support the thugs over the decent, which except for a few far-leftists, anarchists and nutters,  is so patently untrue.

Suggesting, rightly or wrongly, reasons for the behaviour of thosee scumbags does not mean sympathy for them.

Almost like a Tea Party slogan  talking about Obama and gun control ... " Why deprive ordinary decent law-abiding citizens the right to defnd themselves against thieves,murderes and thugs , unless he is on the side of those thieves etc etc etc"


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## horusd (13 Aug 2011)

oldnick said:


> ...
> Suggesting, rightly or wrongly, reasons for the behaviour of thosee scumbags does not mean sympathy for them.
> 
> ..."


 

Very true oldnick. Milliband said yesterday that understanding wasn't excusing. 

A British friend who lives here now but grew up in some fairly rough places around Glasgow & Manchester, said he couldn't see this happening in Ireland, as we are far less a divided society. I'm not so sure that will remain the case, even if it is the case. 

A Irish retired policeman criticised the UK police for being too soft and not arresting people. Some of the images seem to confirm this, rioters coming in easy reach of the cops, and the cops retreating. Ther may be good reasons for this, but cops retreating probably just spurred more rioting.


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## Delboy (13 Aug 2011)

horusd said:


> A Irish retired policeman criticised the UK police for being too soft and not arresting people. Some of the images seem to confirm this, rioters coming in easy reach of the cops, and the cops retreating. Ther may be good reasons for this, but cops retreating probably just spurred more rioting.



some are saying that the police stood off initially as a result of the G7 riots a couple of years ago. they went in heavy then and got hammered by the media....1 cop is up on a charge still over the death of the newspaper seller who was just walking home when he got hit. Several other cops were demoted, cautioned etc.
So they probably said this time to themselves..'i'm not risking my job by going in heavy here'
I know a balance between the 2 approaches is what is needed....but hard to strike a balance in the heat of battle


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## mick1960 (14 Aug 2011)

Latrade said:


> I see nothing in Mr Man's original post that warrants your implication. He was talking about values and his views on the causes of this. He never referenced social class or regard in society or said that it was only a feature of one group of people.
> 
> So perhaps the attitude is a little unjustified.



Mr man said.
Why isn't there people ready to step up and try and better themselves?

I believe that 'to step up and better themselves' points to one section of society or maybe I misread or misinterpreted that.

I also feel that my answer to Mr man was equal in 'attitude' to his reply's to me.


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## MrMan (15 Aug 2011)

mick1960 said:


> Mr man said.
> Why isn't there people ready to step up and try and better themselves?
> 
> I believe that 'to step up and better themselves' points to one section of society or maybe I misread or misinterpreted that.
> ...



The people who break the law because of the bad example of our politicans and bankers is who I referred to. Why don't the same people follow the plenty of good examples around them?
There is always an excuse and someone else to blame, I just wish more people could accept that they are wrong and try and do better next time..


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## mick1960 (16 Aug 2011)

I agree.


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