# Elderly parents and the future financial plans



## Ballymag (4 Feb 2017)

Really need advice to consider my options.

My parents are both 84 and living in their own home which they own. I'm an only child and there is no other family support. Life is getting harder for all of us as they become less able and I'm worried about how long I can sustain it as the only support. I have a husband and 2 young kids and work 3 days a week. I want to look at our options and try to plan ahead. These are the considerations:

- consider the fair deal scheme (most drastic option and dad very resistant but mother happy to go as she is struggling minding him and herself).
Their house is worth around 350k. They have only his old age contributory pension with her on it as a dependent. Think they get about 400 euros a week. They have about 15k in savings. Home help goes in for an hour 4 days a week 

- move them closer to me so I could go in every day if needed. This means either selling and buying a smaller house beside me which would be cheaper as further from the city. Other option is renting near me (if we could get one available in this market). 

Questions:
If they rent a house and then rent their own out which they would have to, what are the tax implications? 
If they buy then I would expect they will have money leftover so more savings. However if at a later date they then need the fair deal scheme this would go against them as I understand it. 
There may also be an option for me to apply for carers benefit if things get worse but don't know if I'd get it? It would mean a cut in my income and I don't want to do it long term but it might enable me to keep them in their own home longer.

Any advice or comments welcome.


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## cremeegg (4 Feb 2017)

Ballymag said:


> Questions:
> If they rent a house and then rent their own out which they would have to, what are the tax implications?



The income from renting would be taxable, although with their low income, possibly not a large amount to be paid.  The cost of renting would not be in anyway tax deductible for them.




Ballymag said:


> If they buy then I would expect they will have money leftover so more savings. However if at a later date they then need the fair deal scheme this would go against them as I understand it.



Well yes in a way. The fair deal takes 7.5% of the person in care's assets each year. However it only takes that in respect of your private home for 3 years, whereas it takes it from other assets indefinitely.




Ballymag said:


> There may also be an option for me to apply for carers benefit if things get worse but don't know if I'd get it? It would mean a cut in my income and I don't want to do it long term but it might enable me to keep them in their own home longer.



You could potentially get carers allowance for both which is one and a half times the single rate and you can work up to 15 hours per week. You must be living with, or in a position to provide full-time care and attention, which I think means that you live nearby.


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## Sue Ellen (4 Feb 2017)

For them to rent a house and renting theirs would appear to me to be just adding to your workload.  I certainly would not want to be a landlord at the moment and possibly deal with the day to day responsibilities and the PRTB requirements.


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## Ballymag (4 Feb 2017)

Thanks for the replies. Didn't think of that Sue Ellen. I know absolutely nothing about being a landlord so am probably naive in that respect. Thought it might be easier than selling up as the thought of all the stress of that is no joke and I'd have to do it all. Also know it will take longer by the time I sell one house and buy another.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Feb 2017)

The renting a house is just not a good idea.  For the reasons that Sue Ellen mentioned alone. But also because being a tenant is not easy either. They might not find a suitable place. And they might be moved on after a couple of years. People find this very stressful, but older people find it even more stressful.


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## twofor1 (5 Feb 2017)

Ballymag said:


> Really need advice to consider my options.
> 
> Home help goes in for an hour 4 days a week
> 
> Any advice or comments welcome.



Talk to your parents local public health nurse, if warranted she can usually get approval for funding for up to, I think 21 hours home help weekly.


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## Ballymag (5 Feb 2017)

Looks like selling up and downsizing to a smaller place would be better. It just seems more drastic than renting - I guess I'm worried that the stress and shock of moving house will affect their health even though I know once they are settled then they will be able to spend more time with us and this will ultimately be better. Am assuming they can get home help in place in a new area. Need to choose estate agents, solicitors etc wisely to make it as smooth as possible. Thanks for the advice everyone.


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## cremeegg (5 Feb 2017)

You will need to discuss this carefully with your parents. While their care may fall back on you, moving house is a decision for them.


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## Ballymag (7 Feb 2017)

Ok. So have done some research.  Rang a local estate agent yesterday - houses in their area are selling quickly.  They charge 1% - is this standard now and should I be haggling.  Also is there any way to tell if the estate agent is any good?  Don't know anyone whose bought/sold a house for years so word of mouth wont work!


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## cremeegg (7 Feb 2017)

Have you decided to sell ? Are your parents behind this. 

I have seen and experienced first hand a number of cases where the children came to conclusions about looking after parents that the parents were not happy about. In one case where the children organised and paid a home help for their mother. The mother said no way and would not let the person in. The kids still are left helping the mother themselves on an ad hoc basis.

As for an estate agent, thats easy the biggest or second biggest in the area. Just look at who has the most boards around.


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## Sue Ellen (7 Feb 2017)

Not sure if you are up-to-date with the market at the moment especially in Dublin.  There is very little coming onto the market and when it does the bids drive the prices up to the ridiculous stage.  Anyone going through the process says it is extremely stressful.  Have a look at www.daft.ie and myhome.ie. You may find it a lot harder to get somewhere for your parents than you think.  If you are in a chain anything can happen, worst case scenario and very sad example here.

With regard to the estate agent 1% does seem cheap but quite often there is a price to be paid because of this.  Have seen some very nice houses sit on the market for 6/8 months recently which is very strange when there is a shortage.  If you Google reviews on the agents you may get some interesting info. 

If your Dad has any sign of Alzheimers/Dementia moving house would be very stressful for him and they generally don't cope too well with it.  I saw this with my own father.  I don't want to sound too negative about the whole thing but if it were me I wouldn't consider moving them at their age.

If you check with Citizens' Information perhaps they may be able to give you advice on the carer's allowance or see if you could get the home help hours extended. 021-4521600 is their contact number or they have offices around the country.  They also have one of those expensive 1890 numbers.  Tread carefully about giving up your job though as things can change very quickly with elderly people's health.


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## Sarenco (7 Feb 2017)

Just a thought but is it worth looking into an equity release product with a view to funding additional home care?


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## Ballymag (7 Feb 2017)

Thanks for ur advice. Would agree that the house move is not ideal and am getting more disheartened by the minute. No matter what I consider it doesn't seem right. Would have to sell theirs then risk not easily buying one. Only thing is that they are downsizing so should be in a position to give a higher bid as it will still be less than the house they've sold. Sue Ellen - no dementia involved and although he hates change he is actually quite contented once he has the newspaper and the horse racing! When he is in hospital he settles quite well - just fear of change which is understandable. Also think if I needed the carers benefit I'd have more chance if they live near but maybe it doesn't work like that? I could look at more home help but it's not just about practicality as being nearer we could spend more time together, eat meals together etc. We are very close and I want them to be as happy as possible. They have outlived most neighbors and there's really nothing for them there anymore. They say this themselves. However I won't be imposing this on them as it needs to be them who decides - that's fairer on them and me I think. It's not easy with no siblings to discuss it with.


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## thedaddyman (8 Feb 2017)

Look at other supports that can be got for them. For example, a personal alarm if one of them has a fall that would alert you or someone else. Also is there a local day care centre they can go to to meet people etc?. My Mam goes one day a week, she get's picked up by a taxi, gets mass, dinner and 4 or 5 hours of company and dropped back to her door for €15.

It would be worth going to see can you talk to the local public health nurse or someone like Age Action who could give good advice


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## Ballymag (8 Feb 2017)

They have been on a waiting list for day care for months and no joy so far but will ring the phn for an update. Was considering ringing age action as it would be good to discuss options with someone who understands the issues.


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## amtc (8 Feb 2017)

I know someone who lives here but travels to look after her dad in UK and discovered she could get carers allowance.


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## Sue Ellen (8 Feb 2017)

With regard to house just wondering if an extension to yours would be the least troublesome option?  Had thought about something relatively cheap like www.shomera.ie but County Councils don't allow their use full time:

*Are the garden studios suitable for human habitation (can I live in them)?*
From the point of view of structure, comfort and insulation, the answer is yes. However, from a planning point of view garden rooms can only be used for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the main house. If you look to have your studio used for the full extent of human habitation, the planning authorities in most cases will decline this usage.

You could sell their house and do an extension on yours so they will have privacy but close contact at the same time.  This will give you a bigger home long term too.  Money left over can be used for any carer that you may have to employ in the future if they require full-time care.  The 5 year rule on disposing of assets probably won't come into the equation in your case as neither you nor your parents appear to be keen on the nursing home option but you may have to check into this in regard to any home care package in case it does apply to that.

Brendan Courtney is trying to get the legislation changed to allow for the Fair Deal scheme to apply to home care but it will probably take a long time if it ever does come about at all
https://www.facebook.com/BrendanCou...962414914128/1334456036598087/?type=2&theater


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## Ballymag (8 Feb 2017)

Sadly am in a newer estate where the garden wouldn't fit an extension. Would me financing a new house and then selling theirs be an option? It would enable a move straight from old house to new? Have a mortgage on own house of 160k but it's worth twice that so some equity.


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## Monbretia (8 Feb 2017)

Your equity won't really matter that much, your income would be more important if you were trying to get a mortgage on a new property.


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## Sue Ellen (9 Feb 2017)

Ballymag said:


> Sadly am in a newer estate where the garden wouldn't fit an extension. Would me financing a new house and then selling theirs be an option? It would enable a move straight from old house to new? Have a mortgage on own house of 160k but it's worth twice that so some equity.



Sounds as if it would need a lot of investigation from a tax and Fair Deal disposal aspect.


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## Ballymag (9 Feb 2017)

Yes have realised that now when I gave it more thought. Am not trying to get around any regulations. Think the fair deal scheme is very good and would be more than happy to pay what was necessary. Just feel that none of us are ready to consider a home yet. A move to a bungalow would hopefully allow us to go on longer with me calling in most days to support them. Am hoping that if necessary in the future we could apply for the scheme and they can take the relevant percentage from the new house. We should be able to get well over 300k for the current house and have seen bungalows for 240k. This would give them savings which could fund some home care hours if needed.


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## Ballymag (10 Feb 2017)

OK. Am moving this on.  Rang an estate agent to enquire about a bungalow for sale - just to get an idea of the market and how much above asking they are currently going for.  Naturally they enquired about selling the existing house and would like the business.  Any benefits/drawbacks with using the same estate agent for a sale and purchase?  I imagine if they know how much you got for your sale then it might not help for a purchase?  Sorry if these are silly questions!


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## Slim (10 Feb 2017)

Hi Ballymag. My two cents worth. I have been following the thread but had nothing to add as the FD scheme has been well enough spelled out there. It seem there is an emotional factor here as your parents may not really be ready for nursing home care. Regarding the FD scheme, it is not simply a case of automatically getting approved. On application, the applicant will be assessed as to the need to nursing home care. If the applicant is mobile, not (too) senile, there may be no approval for the scheme. I think the idea of downsizing is good as long as they spend the money raised on a new property as any cash savings over €36/72k will be assessed at 7.5% p.a. Before moving to a new HSE area, it might be worth checking out local Homecare services and PHN advice as it can vary from area to area. Best wishes to you in dealing with this.


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## Ballymag (10 Feb 2017)

Didn't realise that they might not be eligible for fair deal. Am used to seeing all their limitations so never thought that they might be too fit/healthy to qualify . They would take that as a compliment!! Even more reason to consider a move nearer to me as care would fall more on me especially if home help hours are not sufficient. Only problem is I talked to a local agent today and in this market it would require them to be sold before buying another house to compete with the cash buyers.


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## Ballymag (3 Mar 2017)

OK.  So an update.  Am in the process of putting their house up for sale.  Have agreed 1% fee with the estate agent.  Want to engage a solicitor - anyone give me a rough estimate of solicitors fees in Dublin for a sale and a purchase.  In addition, there's a strong possibility that they will buy my brother in laws house - can the same solicitor act for both and would this be cheaper and easier if its allowed?


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## Sue Ellen (3 Mar 2017)

Ballymag said:


> OK.  So an update.  Am in the process of putting their house up for sale.  Have agreed 1% fee with the estate agent.  Want to engage a solicitor - anyone give me a rough estimate of solicitors fees in Dublin for a sale and a purchase.  In addition, there's a strong possibility that they will buy my brother in laws house - can the same solicitor act for both and would this be cheaper and easier if its allowed?



You may get better advice on these questions in the Askaboutlaw forum on AAM. 

Here are some previous threads from Google

https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=ssl#q...rs+fees+in+Dublin+for+a+sale+and+a+purchase&*

https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=ssl#q...this+be+cheaper+and+easier+if+its+allowed?+&*


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## Charley (3 Mar 2017)

With regard to Carers Benefit, you can still work up to 15 hrs per week so long as your income after tax & deductions is under €332.50 per week.  

You can also get up to two years leave from your employer.  To qualify for Carers Benefit you need to have a certain amount of PRSI contributions


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## Ballymag (6 Mar 2017)

Thanks for that folks.  I've been considering the carers benefit and plan on talking to work to see what's possible.  If I can I will try to get carers benefit even for the short term to get them moved and settled and support them.  I will be looking to transfer their home help hours and this might take to time to arrange and kick in so I'll need to be there for them.


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## Sue Ellen (6 Mar 2017)

Not sure if it is still the case but there have been reports of delays on these type of payments from Social Protection so might be best to investigate that first:
https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=ssl#q=askaboutmoney.com+delays+on+carer's+allowance&*


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## JPSaltee (7 Mar 2017)

I'm in a not disimilar situation. Only child looking after disabled mother 2.5hours away. I looked at the social welfare carers benefit but I work too many hours & live too far away - check the conditions.  Carers leave from my employment has to be taken in lumps of a year, you cant dip in & out - so do check work conditions or could they allow you to work from home on some days? To get more home help hours you generally have to show need, support of the local doctor can be very useful. Or if one goes into hospital refuse to have them released into your care until you have more hours. Check availability of every daycare centre in the area. Definately get an emergency bell. Research the fair deal scheme & also look at the nursing homes - what catchment area are they in.

Moving my mother is not an option as her property is worth very little & I live in a rented flat. Also she is happy where she is and there is a good community spirit & she goes to 2 days daycare there. 

What I've done is employ a carer/au pair for elderly myself. This is working for all parties but its not easy, its take a lot of management but it means my mother has company and somebody is on the spot.

What I will say is that you have to consider yourself and your family as well as your parents, otherwise, this might sound terrible but it is true, they will drain you of money, energy & time with even realising. Caring for others is a hard slog & to do so you need to look after yourself to ensure you can keep going.

I wish you all the best in making your decisions.


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## Ballymag (14 Mar 2017)

Thanks for the replies.  House went on the market yesterday.  Am finding it nervewracking as its such a big thing and need to hold my nerve.  I know it will ultimately be better for us all but still feeling the effects of the huge responsibility that's on me.  Just need to keep the end goal in sight - they will be living around the corner from me if all goes well and that's a benefit for all of us.  It will also help my case if I need to apply for the carer's benefit.  Am meeting someone next week who can advise me of my work options.  I'm a civil servant and they are usually good about this sort of thing but have never had any sort of extended leave so its new to me.


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