# Bailout Exit



## Sunny (13 Dec 2013)

Day 1 of Bailout Exit: Politicians promise tax cuts.......

Day 3 of Bailout Exit: Leader does State of Nation Address

You have to love the Irish politican.


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## TRS30 (13 Dec 2013)

Sunny said:


> Day 1 of Bailout Exit: Politicians promise tax cuts.......
> 
> Day 3 of Bailout Exit: Leader does State of Nation Address
> 
> You have to love the Irish politican.



Day ? of Bailout Exit: We run out of money and need to go cap in hand for Bailout II.


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## GDUFFY (14 Dec 2013)

Its disgusting what these politicians (all politicians past and present who supported this fraud) have foisted on Ireland, ourselves, our children, our grandchildren etc. etc.
Don't be fooled by all this Bull about how great the Irish people are for coming through this bailout.
We have shown ourselves to be a spineless bunch, we will now pay for it for a loooooooooooooong time.


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## Conan (14 Dec 2013)

GDUFFY,
You are spot on. Our current position is entirely the fault of Politicians. It is nothing to do with:
- voters who voted in FF despite all the evidence
- citizens who thought they could mortgage their family home to buy property in Cape Verde, Bulgaria, Spain, Portugal and so many other parts of the globe
- bankers who forgot about banking101 and lend money to any idiot who wanted it
- regulators who were asleep at the wheel
- and a population who thought that we had invented a new financial paradigm

But it's so easy to blame politicians. But we get the politicians we voted for. So if we point one finger at politicians look where the other three fingers are pointing? Yes it's us.


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## Annie51 (14 Dec 2013)

Agree with Conan


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## Sunny (16 Dec 2013)

Conan said:


> But it's so easy to blame politicians. But we get the politicians we voted for. So if we point one finger at politicians look where the other three fingers are pointing? Yes it's us.


 
God I hate that soundbite. Can never understand how it became popular. What are voters suposed to do? Did Labour voters vote for cuts in child benefit or did they not vote to see bondholders burnt like the Party promised. Did FG voters not vote for an end to things like upward rent reviews and a reformed health service?

Everyone understands that politicians lie when it comes to election time but people have to vote for someone and they can't be blamed for taking politicians at their word.

Even the infamous Bank Guarantee legislation was passed by a vote of 124-18 with only the labour party as far as I remember voting against it. Where was FG as the largest opposition party that night?

Also as much as we like to blame FF for everything, remember it was FG and Labour calling for cuts in stamp duty and other property market interventions during the boom. Where was the credible opposition during those years?

It's all very well saying voters get the politicians they deserve but in Ireland where every political party including Sinn Fein is edging more and more to the centre, where are the alternatives for the voters? Do they not vote? Do they vote for independents which does nothing for the stability of the Country?


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## Purple (16 Dec 2013)

Richard Bruton is the only politician who went on record in the Dáil during the boom and said that we were narrowing the tax base too much and losing our competitiveness. That said he supported his party when their response to FF give-away budgets was "MORE, MORE!".


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## Gerry Canning (16 Dec 2013)

Conan;

Cannot fully agree with your sentiments.
The Normal Joe will be inclined to vote for status Quo ie then it was Fianna Fail.
The Normal Joe , got suckered into Cape Verde by Bank Salesmen who neither knew their job or who were not regulated as they should be by our failed Central Bank.
If failed Bankers had acted like Bankers Normal Joe would have been ok.
Regulators were not asleep , they just did not do their job.
The Population did not invent a new Financi al Parsdigm, Normal Joe just trusted the advice of (wiser) men.

@ that time the thought was , happy days are here to stay.
The issue is that Normal Joe is paying for it !!!


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## Conan (16 Dec 2013)

Gerry,
I think we will have to agree to disagree. 
I think if you check you will find that the promoters of Cape Verde or Bulgaria were some well known TV personalities (one Rugby and one a financial commentator). It was not bank salesmen who were out promoting foreign holiday homes.
It might be convenient to blame Bankers for all our bad financial decisions, but it is just not that simple. 
I am intrigued at Sunny's recognition that politicians lie during election time but yet that we (voters) then cannot be blamed for taking them at their word. Regrettably, if some party came out with a policy of cutbacks in 2011 I doubt they would have won many seats. We voters seems to want politicians to lie to us. We can't handle the truth.


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## Purple (17 Dec 2013)

Conan said:


> Regrettably, if some party came out with a policy of cutbacks in 2011 I doubt they would have won many seats. We voters seems to want politicians to lie to us. We can't handle the truth.



What's that line about getting the politicians we deserve?


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## Billo (17 Dec 2013)

Politicians do not lie at election times. They make promises.

They then break those promises.

Is that a lie ?


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## Sunny (17 Dec 2013)

Conan said:


> Gerry,
> I am intrigued at Sunny's recognition that politicians lie during election time but yet that we (voters) then cannot be blamed for taking them at their word. Regrettably, if some party came out with a policy of cutbacks in 2011 I doubt they would have won many seats. We voters seems to want politicians to lie to us. We can't handle the truth.


 
It's not that amazing. People on AAM don't have the monopoly on foresight and knowledge. Sinn Fein promise the moon and the stars and still didn't make any progress when it comes to election time. Labour were looking at a Eamonn Gilmore being Taoisach at one stage before the last election before their promises were ripped apart. People saw straight through the 'Labour way or Frankfurt way' line. Everyone knew Austerity was going to happen at the last election and they knew FG would implement it. We already knew what was coming and we still didn't rush to vote for the left parties like Sinn Fein who were saying we didn't need it. Look at other Countries and how voting has gone since the crisis and give Irish voters some credit.

What I get sick of is politicians shouting abuse from the opposition benches about how things would be different if they got into power but then getting into power and nothing changes. It's not that I am shocked by it. I just find it childish and pathethic political opposition. The children's hospital is a good example. Reilly was having heart attacks on the opposition benches screaming about FF politicising and putting childrens lives at risk....We are still waiting........The voters aren't to blame for the politicians ineptitude on this issue.


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## Bronte (18 Dec 2013)

Sunny said:


> Day 1 of Bailout Exit: Politicians promise tax cuts.......
> 
> .


 
And how much are we still borrowing to fund current exchequer spending...

Apart from tax cuts, I'm expecting property incentives.


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## Gerry Canning (18 Dec 2013)

Conan; 

You might see me as disagreeing with you , actually I do not. 
You are 100% correct in that some (luminaries) flogged Cape Verde etc and too many people swallowed the hype.
What I clearly wish to state is that if our (professional) Bankers had maintained their normal underwriting and not gone (mad)in cahoots with these Luminaries Mr Normal could not have been Cape Verded! 

Anyway 2014 will I hope see a semblance of normality ,so Happy Christmas.


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## Firefly (18 Dec 2013)

After the bubble crashed it became accepted wisdom that we should have had a more dependable tax revenue stream coming in rather than being dependant on trasaction taxes such as stamp duty. The current logic from all concerned seems to be that our  borrowings/deficit be a certain percentage of GDP..are we not following the same path? ie say we have a few decent years and the economy grows, the purse strings will open as now we can borrow more based on our growth. Should growth subsequently fall, we will have another difficult period of austerity all over again. I don't have a solution but just feel the current plan is a bit deja-vous


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## Jim2007 (18 Dec 2013)

Gerry Canning said:


> What I clearly wish to state is that if our (professional) Bankers had maintained their normal underwriting and not gone (mad)....



But they did!  That is what makes bubbles so crazy and so dangerous…  Leaving aside Anglo, who where clearly criminal, for a moment, pull up the accounts of AIB or BOI and examine their financial ratios etc… for the period and compare them with other European banks, look at the analysts reports and recommendations - there is nothing special there, unless you knew what comes after!

In a bubble everyone including the regulators and government gets dragged in - If you have 2 estate agents telling you the valuation of a building, three people wanting to buy it and 3 financial institutions will to lend the money to buy the building because they the property represents sufficient security, how can you argue that the valuation is wrong?  What proof are you going to be able to present???

If you want to see how crazy people can get take a look at Tulip mania and note that "in March 1637, some single tulip bulbs sold for more than 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsman".  

Bubbles are a fact of live they have been happening for hundreds of years and no amount of legislation or blame games are going to stop them.  So the only way to avoid them is to understand them - for instance most money is lost after the bubble, not during the bubble because people want to get in on the ground floor and not miss the next great price increase...


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