# Offered a Civil Service EO job; but not sure whether to accept?



## grazia

Hi all, I am hoping that some of you are current civil servants and will be able to give me some guidance.

My situation:

Friday 4.55pm received phonecall offering me an EO job (caught unawares as I applied for the job in 2005!). The location is 20 mins from my house - my current job is 70 mins from my house. The other major point is that the salary is 8-10K less than what I currently earn. My current job is tolerable but I  do have itchy feet and I would like to move to somewhere that may have better long term prospects.

As I see it these are the pro's and con's - however I would _really _appreciate it if someone with firsthand experience can confirm/comment on the reality of what I think are the pro's and con's.

Pro's with EO position:
Opportunity for training
Promotional possibilities within a 2 yr time frame
30 days holidays (think this might be a myth?)
Flexi time
Career breaks, after 2 yrs service
Progressive organisation (or maybe this is dependent on dept?)
35 hr working week
Reduced commuting

Con's with EO position:
Reduction in salary (it's not all about the money but it can't be ignored)
No performance related pay rewards
A lot of EO's chasing very few promotional opportunities
Crony-ism (sp) and politics in the workplace
No idea of the specifics of the job and how I might enjoy it*
Required to start on the lowest point of the scale (30,628 from pseu.ie)

Also if you would like to suggest further pro's/con's I would love to hear them. The fact that the organisation takes 2 yrs for it's recruiting is another factor that makes me slightly wary about joining up...

thanks in advance for all replies!


_ *online sources (publicjobs.ie) are suitably vague about what an EO does, I will ring the appointments section on Monday to request a full spec to see if that helps but it is my impression that the job can/will differ drastically depending on dept._


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## messyleo

*Re: Offered an EO job but not sure whether to accept?*

Annual leave starts at 21 days for an EO i think - it increases after 5 years though by a good few days i think (maybe to 26-ish) You would be very very very lucky to be promoted in a 2 year timeframes. Career breaks are up to the discretion of your department in most cases, although they usually let you go.

also meant to say, a lot depends on which dept you are in tbh - the workload and opportunites vary *dramatically*


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## bradfield

I am currently working as an AO in the Civil Service and I agree with the last poster, every EO position in the Civil Service is not the same it depends on the department. And all the pros that you have listed are correct (except for annual leave its only 30 days after a number of years service). 

A couple of things. It is not as easy to get promoted as it used to be in the context of Decentralisation especially if you want to stay in Dublin. The second thing is that it is very easy to get institutionalised, you value the benefits of the job over job satisfaction and end up a little bit like a robot just doing your job automatically with no real satisfaction and to tell you the truth it can feel like your trapped a lot of the time! Especially if you have financial commitments such as mortgages!!!!!!!!

Anyway, sorry for the negative note! Its not all negative as you may be lucky and get a really good job with a great boss and be constantly challenged and as a result love coming into work every morning! The first assigment I had when I joined 6 years ago was like that and it was fantastic! 

I suppose really its like anything its a risk and you just have to decide whether or not you are willing to take the risk!

Best of luck with the decision and let us know what you decide!

B


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## Ciaraella

I'm currently an EO in the Department of Justice. I'd agree with previous posters, the job can vary wildly between departments. For example in my department EO's do not supervise or delegate to other staff whereas in some other departments EO's may have management roles. The basic annual leave is 21 days. The advantage over the private sector would be flexi-time which in my case enables me to work up a day and a half off every four week period. There is also a privilege day which is taken once as Easter and also at Christmas. Personally i think it's a very secure job with reliable increments every year (based on attendance, sick leave etc). Also i'd jump at a job that had a commute time of only 20 minutes!


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## bigjoe_dub

commute alone would swing it for me.  quality of life and all that.


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## Orga

I would advise you making the offerer aware of your current salary and having evidence of that, P60's etc. You should make clear that you are interested in the position and that you would be prepared to start on the next point commensurate with your salary scale. I imagine you were appointed through the Civil Service Public Appointments Commission - based in Abbey St. You should contact them and ask to which Dept you will be assigned. They are very professional and very helpful. You should initiate discussion on the amount of annual leave if what you have currently is greater than what is being offered. You need to do these things as a priority as there is usually a time limit of one week with the offers. Promotion is competence based - if you can demonstrate the ability you will get the job. If you want to get ahead you will find a way to do so and you will find the CS supportive.


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## RainyDay

Orga said:


> You should make clear that you are interested in the position and that you would be prepared to start on the next point commensurate with your salary scale.


Haven't the Dept Finance ruled out starting on anything other than the bottom of the scale for new joiners to the civil service, other than for specific specialist positions where this has been agreed in advance.


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## Rovers1901

While there's no harm in trying what Orga suggested, I would imagine there is zero chance of any EO starting on anything other than the first point of the scale. And there is no chance of getting anymore holidays than the 21 you're entitled to. If you don't take it, they just offer it to the next name on the list.

I did the same about 2 and a half years ago, took a big drop in take home pay (although not that big in terms of actual stated salary) when i first joined as an EO and am now on a couple of panels for promotion to HEO/AO. As others have said what you'll be doing depends on what department and what section within a department you're assigned to. It can be a lottery, but it can work out brilliantly for you.


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## triplex

HI Grazia, 

firstly, congratulations! 

secondly, the following are facts: 

EO Annual leave - 21 days, rising to 22 days after 5 years service. No higher.
EO salary - you will start at bottom of scale - end of story. 
You get a flat wage  - nothing else - no bonus, no shares, no health insurance - just your basic wage.
You will get a salary increase automatically every year for 10 years. After that, you won't get one for 3 years. 3 years later, you get your last increase. After that, you are on the same salary for life - unless you get promotion. 
Your pension contribution will be deducted from your salary each fortnight.

In most government departments, flexi-time is on offer - you can work up a day and a half extra in a four week period to take off in the following four week period.

you can take the option of further study -eg, solicitor, accountancy - if you pass your exams FIRST TIME  - your department will pay - only if you pass first time. You will have to pay for exams/course up front yourself - Department will refund you. 
You will get the day of the exams off work and 5 days study leave. This is all you get. 
If you do this, and become a fully qualified barrister, for example, while working as an Executive Officer - it will make NO DIFFERENCE to your career in the civil service. Neither will a degree/diploma in any discipline. 

General training at a basic level is available - word, excel, (you can do advanced in these!) time mgt, stress mgt, performance mgt etc..
Specialised training is not available. 

Promotion is on the basis of a half-hour 'compentency' based interview. 
Internal promotion is VERY DIFFICULT to get at the moment and is likely to remain like this for a few years. 

It is also difficult to move between departments at the moment. Some departments are better than others. 

You can take 2 career breaks of 5 years max each time. 
While on career break, you cannot work in Ireland unless you are self-employed, in which case your career break is 3 years. 

Re becoming institutionalised: This will definitely happen to you if you LET it...

You are not obliged to join the union.

the above are all facts.  My opinions are based on experience, but you need to take in the facts first!  


HINT - find out which Departments you are being offered BEFORE you accept the job..


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## grazia

Thanks one and all for the advice.

TBH I'm veering towards not accepting it - (not purely on the advice here, so don't worry I won't hold ye accountable!  ) The main reasons are the 'pot luck' element of the job and the substantial drop in salary. It seems to me to be a lot to sacrifice for a shorter commute. There may be future possibilities for me to reduce my commute that might be more appealing..

I have contacted Chapter House who were helpful, they told me the dept and a contact person in that specific dept. I will be following up with them. Thanks again.


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## ashambles

I don't believe the drop in salary should be the deciding factor in accepting the job. 

Part of the drop will be covered by the fact your new pension is so much better. I saw a newspaper report recently which said public sector pension has been calculated as being worth 20% extra in salary.

You'll be working around 10% less hours. Also the number of holidays in the public sector is typically higher than the annual leave number you'll see listed for a job, usually a couple "concession" days and Good Friday at least.  

Your commute is much shorter, if driving your petrol savings alone could be a couple thousand a year and almost twice that in pre (41%) tax earnings. 

The fact you'll have job security means you don't need to maintain an emergency pool of money for periods of unemployment.  



> You will get a salary increase automatically every year for 10 years. After that, you won't get one for 3 years. 3 years later, you get your last increase. After that, you are on the same salary for life - unless you get promotion.


This is better in general than in the private sector and in any case doesn't include the partnership/benchmarking agreements or whatever applies to civil servants. Recently it's not been unusual to receive 3 pay rises a year in the public sector.


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## dereko1969

well, 50 minutes reduction in commuting x twice a day x 5 days a week adds up to quite an incentive for most people (it would more than adequately cover the flexi-time you would require for a day and a half off per month). 
as others have said a lot can depend on the department you are assigned to. however i've worked in a few departments and within departments the job can vary widely - so a 'bad' department could well have a number of 'good' jobs at your grade and vice versa. 
one thing to keep in mind is that if you take the EO job it would make it easier for you to get the AO job which is the graduate/manager entry level grade if you have the requisite qualifications. I know a number of AOs who entered at EO and succeeded at the next AO competition where they failed previously. Once you get AO you have a better chance of promotion up the line (usually quicker than HEOs).
Also the point made by Triplex about qualifications not being of any use is not 'a fact' Departments are tending to take note of these a lot more now than previously.


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## triplex

sorry Dereko1969 - you are wrong there - you do NOT get any points towards your total points for promotion. You are scored under various competencies according to your verbal performance at a half hour interview. 

you do NOT receive a score for your educational qualifications.You do NOT receive points for your experience. Neither does your manager's assessment contribute to your scoring. 

This is a very serious flaw with internal promotion competitions.

Also, jus to clarify for those not civil service, the only way to get to AO is via the external open competition - there are no internal AO competitions.


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## James99

Grazia,

I have a sister who was in the same boat 7/8 years ago.
She was working externally and took a salary cut to go to the CS.
She decided to play it safe even though the celtic tiger was roaring.
(and the cat on the street can tell the economy isnt as strong as it was then) 

Best move of her life. Loves the stability, Loves the flexitime.
Got promoted twice ... now earns very good money.(and it isnt going down) Has excellent pension. Is very happy with lot. Holidays building slowly but nicely. 20 minutes from work. Option possibly to transfer down the country in long term.

So before you make the decision, imagine it's 5-10 years down the line ... what will be important to you then?

Best of luck with whatever decision you make but take into account what will be important in a couple of years time.


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## dereko1969

triplex said:


> sorry Dereko1969 - you are wrong there - you do NOT get any points towards your total points for promotion. You are scored under various competencies according to your verbal performance at a half hour interview.
> 
> you do NOT receive a score for your educational qualifications.You do NOT receive points for your experience. Neither does your manager's assessment contribute to your scoring.
> 
> This is a very serious flaw with internal promotion competitions.
> 
> Also, jus to clarify for those not civil service, the only way to get to AO is via the external open competition - there are no internal AO competitions.


 
i was making a broader point that people with certain qualifications would nowadays be put into positions where that experience would be of use to them in the job which would then help them to do the job better and help them gain promotion. 

there are also 'economist' positions that come up which are promotions also IT positions which are promotions, i'm sure there are others too. obviously you're correct that points are not given in internal competitions but being a graduate will allow you apply for the external competitions of which there are an increasing number, internal competitions only account for 1 in 3 promotions anyway. 
i'm sure that the interview board will also when looking at the forms pay attention to the qualifications and those qualifications can be used as examples in the competency based interview. it's important to point out all the issues in relation to this.


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## redbhoy

I think Newton said that the most expensive thing is 'Time' as you cant buy a second of it.
If i was you Id jump for the civil service. Less hours, and possibly flexi time? And you spend less time commuting. More time to do what you want- study maybe, hobbies you like, list is endless?
Im a mere CO the last few months and the drop in money was a shock but I work part time to keep my lifestyle the same and I wont be looking for a job in the private sector any time soon.


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## grazia

Thanks everybody, your experiences and insights have been most helpful. 

After getting clarification from the good people in Chapter House & the specific department, I have declined the position. These are my reasons:

Working week of *41 hours* - this is 6 hours more than I currently work

Salary - must start at point 1 on scale 

Annual leave - a bit lower than I'd hope for at this stage of my life

Job specifics - no clarification on exactly what the job is - I know the grade & dept but they can't give me any further details. I would not be happy if it turned out that 60% of my working day comprised of a task that I hated doing. Also I feel that my qualifications/experience are not tailored to the position - I am simply the next person on the list.

Pension - I don't agree that the pension benefits are much superior to my current setup. I'm not 20 years old (unfortunately!) so I won't have anything like 40 yrs service before retirement.

After much soul searching the main attraction for me was a reduced commute. This isn't enough of a reason to take the job. There are other ways to reduced commutes... other jobs, move house etc...

Decision made, hopefully I won't regret it! Thanks again!


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## ang1170

Just read the posts above, and I have to say it's been something of an eye-opener. A couple of quote stand out:

- _"If you do this, and become a fully qualified barrister, for example, while working as an Executive Officer - it will make NO DIFFERENCE to your career in the civil service. Neither will a degree/diploma in any discipline." 
_
and

- _"Job specifics - no clarification on exactly what the job is - I know the grade & dept but they can't give me any further details."_

Just what kind of organisation is the civil service????


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## RainyDay

ang1170 said:


> - _"If you do this, and become a fully qualified barrister, for example, while working as an Executive Officer - it will make NO DIFFERENCE to your career in the civil service. Neither will a degree/diploma in any discipline."
> _


I think it is an exaggeration to say that a barrister's qualification will not make any difference. It certainly will not come with an automatic promotion, but at a minimum, it will open up doors to specialist legal positions which require this qualification, doors which would obviously be closed without the qualification.


ang1170 said:


> - _"Job specifics - no clarification on exactly what the job is - I know the grade & dept but they can't give me any further details."_
> 
> Just what kind of organisation is the civil service????


It is a huge organisation, that requires flexibility of staff. It does not recruit staff for specific positions, but instead, recruits staff who are flexible enough to cover a range of roles. Wouldn't it be crazy to recruit staff for specific positions, which may well change or dissapear as legislation gets updated, or the environment changes.


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## Staples

RainyDay said:


> It is a huge organisation, that requires flexibility of staff. It does not recruit staff for specific positions, but instead, recruits staff who are flexible enough to cover a range of roles. Wouldn't it be crazy to recruit staff for specific positions, which may well change or dissapear as legislation gets updated, or the environment changes.


 
Other comparable public sector organsiations (e.g. Euro Commission, UK civil service) recruit directly to positions rather than having the Irish system of panels. It might be most costly but it perhaps represents better long term value. There is a greater chance of skills being matched to those required of a position. It also allows for greater levels of job satisfaction as a person has a greater chance of occupying a position in which they might actually be interested. I think it's reasonable that a person being taken on should have at least some indication of the work they'll be doing - the alternative approach relies on coincidence (and the outcome thereof). As we've seen from this thread, this uncertainty has (at least partly) led one good person to deciding against a career in the Civil Service and, doubtless, there are others who have come to similar conclusions over the years. 

The question of redundant positions, should they occur, in these other public service organisations is dealt with by allowing staff to move between different departments (a flexibility that doesn't exist FOR THESE PURPOSES in this country). In the main, staff of similar grades in government departments don't move between departments unless on promotion or to a department that's decentralising. Even in these circumstances, the same uncertainty of eventual job exists.

People often talk about the need for the civil service to become more productive. Perhaps a move towards assigning people to jobs they may be good at would be a way to go.


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## Caveat

grazia said:


> Crony-ism (sp) and politics in the workplace


 
Worth noting that despite the security, flexibility etc, a few people I know left the civil service purely because of the above mentioned reasons.


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## RainyDay

Staples said:


> Other comparable public sector organsiations (e.g. Euro Commission, UK civil service) recruit directly to positions rather than having the Irish system of panels.


THis is an over-simplification. The UK civil service still has [broken link removed]. It does indeed recruit into [broken link removed]directly, as does .

My experiences with many private businesses is that the higher you go, the more generic your skills are. Senior managers are senior managers, whether they came from IT, finance or marketing backgrounds. They will frequently switch roles & responsibilities to develop their own skills. It's not that different really.


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## Staples

RainyDay said:


> THis is an over-simplification. The UK civil service still has [broken link removed]. It does indeed recruit into [broken link removed]directly, as does ..


 
With respect, I think THIS represents an over simplification.  The UK's recourse to recruitment of specialist skills is far more frequent and wide ranging.  For example, HR is treated as a specialist skill wheras in the Irish equivalent, it's just one of the positions into which you might be assigned if you happen to occupy the grade at which the vacancy arises.  

Similarly, in the UK, if you operate in, say, HR at a partcular level, it's possible to highlight other HR posts or promotional opportunities across the UK civil service as a whole and to plot a career path that doesn't require you to move away from your core competency.  The same HR profesional in the Irsh sysrtem might well be promoted but it would be rare for them to move to a position that built on their direct HR expertise or experience.  




RainyDay said:


> My experiences with many private businesses is that the higher you go, the more generic your skills are. Senior managers are senior managers, whether they came from IT, finance or marketing backgrounds. They will frequently switch roles & responsibilities to develop their own skills. It's not that different really.


 
I would agree that the skills required for senior management are more generic.  My point, however, related to more junior positions (e.g. EO/AO and other middle management positions) around which the thread was originally devised.


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## csirl

> Salary - must start at point 1 on scale


 
If you can prove that your current salary is higher, you can start on the 4th point of the scale which would be 5-6k higher thus bringing the salary close to your current job. This is not advertised - you have to ask for it and back it up with P60s to prove. You can also use previous work experience for same i.e. if you can prove that you did a job of similar skill for up to 4 years, you may also start on the 4th point. The decision will be up to the Personnel Officer in whatever Dept you are appointed to, but in most cases they give in if they think that the applicant will refuse the job for salary reasons. Best approach is to ring them and say you want to take the job, but the salary is a lot lower than current and you cannot accept it at the rate offered.


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## RainyDay

csirl said:


> If you can prove that your current salary is higher, you can start on the 4th point of the scale which would be 5-6k higher thus bringing the salary close to your current job. This is not advertised - you have to ask for it and back it up with P60s to prove. You can also use previous work experience for same i.e. if you can prove that you did a job of similar skill for up to 4 years, you may also start on the 4th point. The decision will be up to the Personnel Officer in whatever Dept you are appointed to, but in most cases they give in if they think that the applicant will refuse the job for salary reasons. Best approach is to ring them and say you want to take the job, but the salary is a lot lower than current and you cannot accept it at the rate offered.



Are you sure that your information on this is current, and applies to new joiners to the public/civil service? I understood that Dept Finance had very strict guidelines about starting on the lowest point in the scale, except in cases where this had been agreed prior to the starting of the recruitment.


Staples said:


> With respect, I think THIS represents an over simplification.  The UK's recourse to recruitment of specialist skills is far more frequent and wide ranging.  For example, HR is treated as a specialist skill wheras in the Irish equivalent, it's just one of the positions into which you might be assigned if you happen to occupy the grade at which the vacancy arises.
> 
> Similarly, in the UK, if you operate in, say, HR at a partcular level, it's possible to highlight other HR posts or promotional opportunities across the UK civil service as a whole and to plot a career path that doesn't require you to move away from your core competency.  The same HR profesional in the Irsh sysrtem might well be promoted but it would be rare for them to move to a position that built on their direct HR expertise or experience.


Far away hills are greener. The UK central website currently has [broken link removed] available, including one junior admin position and one fixed-term contract, so I don't expect that UK-based HR staff will be doing huge amounts of career planning looking for promotions here. 

For comparative purposes, the  includes specialist positions for diplomats, HSE clerical officers, ICT staff, ICT staff specifically for Dept of Agriculture, HEO Employment Assistance Officer (a HR role!), accountants for Dept Justice, and auditors, and this ignores truly specialist roles like Gardai, Firefighters and EMTs.

I don't think it is fair to diss the Irish service and sign the praises of the UK service.


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## dereko1969

i know people who've benefitted from this, particularly at AO level.


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## RainyDay

dereko1969 said:


> i know people who've benefitted from this, particularly at AO level.



Hi Derek - I presume you are referring to people starting above to bottom of the scale. Can you confirm how recently these people started?


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## csirl

> Are you sure that your information on this is current, and applies to new joiners to the public/civil service? I understood that Dept Finance had very strict guidelines about starting on the lowest point in the scale, except in cases where this had been agreed prior to the starting of the recruitment.


 
If you go to the civil service personnel website - [broken link removed]

And look at the "starting pay" section, you'll see reference to a document called "28/04/1994 LP Conf. Confidential - starting salary at open competitions " dating from 1994. So the rules havent changed in recent years.


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## Staples

RainyDay said:


> For comparative purposes, the  includes specialist positions for diplomats, HSE clerical officers, ICT staff, ICT staff specifically for Dept of Agriculture, HEO Employment Assistance Officer (a HR role!), accountants for Dept Justice, and auditors, and this ignores truly specialist roles like Gardai, Firefighters and EMTs.
> 
> I don't think it is fair to diss the Irish service and sign the praises of the UK service.


 

Without second guessing your public sector experience, I suspect it's not based on the CS in particular.The list you offer includes various positions in the wider public sector (HSE, Gardai,etc).  I was referring to the civil service in particular which was the original subject of the thread. 

That the Irish CS recruits directly to _some _positions is not not evidence that the practice is as widescale as it perhaps should be.  Whether there's a value making the process more widespread in clearly a matter of opinion but I certainly think it's worthy of consideration.  I've done some research around this to support a thesis a couple of years ago and I believe that benefits would accrue to managers, jobholders and, ultimately, the general public. I know of many disaffected managers and jobholders who are frustrated by an absence of any policy which seeks to match people to jobs that match their skills.  As I mentioned previously, the system requires the success of coincidence.

For example, prior to moving to IFSRA, responsiblity for the regulation of bank charges lay with the Director of Consumer Affairs whose office was staffed with general grade civil servants with no particular background or expertise in financial services.  Had any of these people applied for a job in the Central Bank they would have been utterly rejected.  The people who were asked to talke on this job were under considerable stress to perform a job they didn't ask for and weren't equipped to understake.  An ability to recruit directly to these positions (which is what IFSRA eventually did on assuming the function) would have circumvented this problem to mutual benefit.  I doubt this example is isoated.  

It is disingenuous to suggest that I'm dissing the Irish system and singing the praises of another.  i'm merely pointing to what I regard as some deficiencies and pointing to examples of where some attempts to address the issue have been taken.


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## RainyDay

csirl said:


> If you go to the civil service personnel website - [broken link removed]
> 
> And look at the "starting pay" section, you'll see reference to a document called "28/04/1994 LP Conf. Confidential - starting salary at open competitions " dating from 1994. So the rules havent changed in recent years.



Thanks - very useful. Pity that the content of that circular is deemed confidential. You don't know where I'd happen to find a copy, by any chance?



Staples said:


> Without second guessing your public sector experience, I suspect it's not based on the CS in particular.The list you offer includes various positions in the wider public sector (HSE, Gardai,etc).  I was referring to the civil service in particular which was the original subject of the thread.


Indeed, my direct personal experience is directly related to the broader public service, rather than the CS. Though like most public servants, I do of course engage with the CS and Public Appointments Service from time to time.



Staples said:


> That the Irish CS recruits directly to _some _positions is not not evidence that the practice is as widescale as it perhaps should be.  Whether there's a value making the process more widespread in clearly a matter of opinion but I certainly think it's worthy of consideration.  I've done some research around this to support a thesis a couple of years ago and I believe that benefits would accrue to managers, jobholders and, ultimately, the general public. I know of many disaffected managers and jobholders who are frustrated by an absence of any policy which seeks to match people to jobs that match their skills.  As I mentioned previously, the system requires the success of coincidence.


Not much that I'd disagree with there. Did your research look at what happens when specific posts dissappear through a change in government or change in policy?


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## beautfan

Try an FOI request.


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## Berni

beautfan said:


> Try an FOI request.


You can't get it that way, its exempt under section 21(1)(c)



*21.*
—(1) A head may refuse to grant a request under _section 7 _ifaccess to the record concerned could, in the opinion of the head,​reasonably be expected to—
(



_a_) prejudice the effectiveness of tests, examinations, investigations,

inquiries or audits conducted by or on behalf of
the public body concerned or the procedures or methods
employed for the conduct thereof,
(_b_) have a significant, adverse effect on the performance by the
body of any of its functions relating to management
(including industrial relations and management of its
staff), or
(_c_) disclose positions taken, or to be taken, or plans, procedures,
criteria or instructions used or followed, or to be used or
followed, for the purpose of any negotiations carried on
or being, or to be, carried on by or on behalf of the
Government or a public body.​ 
​


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## beautfan

I am assuming this 'secret' memo outlines the guidelines which apply to starting pay so don't think any of the above would apply. However, I would need to see the memo first (ha ha).


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## Staples

RainyDay said:


> Did your research look at what happens when specific posts dissappear through a change in government or change in policy?


 
To be honest, no.  This didn't present itself as an issue but I'd be genuinely interested to know how likely an occurance this is.  The only example I can think of is the redeployment of customs officers after the EU became a single market.  AFAIK they were offered administrative positions throughout the civil service.  Doubtless this would have required a more imaginative solution in my perfect world but that's not to say the issue couldn't have been overcome.


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## dereko1969

csirl said:


> If you go to the civil service personnel website - [broken link removed]
> 
> And look at the "starting pay" section, you'll see reference to a document called "28/04/1994 LP Conf. Confidential - starting salary at open competitions " dating from 1994. So the rules havent changed in recent years.


 
the fact that it's confidential would be an indicator that the starting salary is negotiable as per comments by myself and others here. the people i know for certain that started on point 4 got this a number of years ago, about 5 years if i remember correctly.


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## RainyDay

Staples said:


> To be honest, no.  This didn't present itself as an issue but I'd be genuinely interested to know how likely an occurance this is.  The only example I can think of is the redeployment of customs officers after the EU became a single market.  AFAIK they were offered administrative positions throughout the civil service.  Doubtless this would have required a more imaginative solution in my perfect world but that's not to say the issue couldn't have been overcome.



I was thinking more about individual posts, rather than large-scale groups like customs officer. For example, two specific senior posts (PO level) currently advertised on publicjobs.ie (one CS, one PS) arise from specific provisions in the Disability Act 2005. It is not unforseeable that a future Govt decision could change the approach/process/structure eliminating the need for these positions. It will be very difficult to make these positions attractive to experienced individuals, if the positions are likely to be eliminated at the whim of a Minister. In fact, one of these positions is a 5-year fixed term contract, which will make it unattractive to anyone looking for a career. I would bet that it will be mostly those approaching retirement age who will apply for this position.


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## bobby04

Interesting reading here how often it is stated as FACT that EO's MUST start on the first/lowest point of the scale. This is not true. And believe me, the 4th point on the scale is not the best that one can hope for either. Not by a long way!!


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## liaconn

Orga said:


> Promotion is competence based - if you can demonstrate the ability you will get the job.


 

Its not quite as simple as that._ Interviews_ are competency based but there are a lot of people chasing very few places so even if you demonstrate the competency you may not get high enough marks to be placed on a panel. Also, the competency based interview has become somewhat formulaic and some people who are t who are useless on the job can crack the formula and do brilliantly. Some Departments have copped on to this and are starting to introduce 'semi-competency' based interviews to try and get a more accurate view of candidates.


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