# Certificates of Discharge/Exemptions for Household Charge and NPPR



## Dermot

Arising out of a purchase I recently made my solicitor presented me with printouts from the NPPR account and Household Charge account of the vendor. I would also add that he received an undertaking that if any or all payments were not made by the vendor that I would be reimbursed.  The printouts showed all the properties that the vendor owned as well as the property that they were selling.
I researched the matter myself and have discovered the following.

In relation to the Household Charge you can email the Dept of the Environment who administer this charge at 'support@householdcharge.ie' and request a Certificate of Discharge for years 2012 and 2013 and quoting the address of the property and the Houshold charge reference no which you used when paying the charge.

In relation to NPPR you can email or write to the NPPR section to the Co. Co. in which area that your property is in. You quote the Account reference no for the NPPR charge which is different to the Household Charge and you give the address of your property.  You ask for a certificate of discharge for years 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 & 2013 for each property. 
In all cases quote your mailing address.
If you are entitled to an exemption for any of the years get a certificate of exemption stating the reason why it was exempted.  A certificate of discharge is proof of payment and will show that there are no arrears or penalties outstanding on the date of the certificate.
It will also keep the matter relevant to the property that you are buying or selling and save time waiting for them if you request them now for properties you now own.  For anyone purchasing a property it might be no harm to have your solicitor request them from the other side at an early stage.
You are entitled to them.  "Section 10 of the Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 for the Household Charge and Section 8 of the Local Government (Charges) Act 2009 for the NPPR charge are the relevant acts and sections which provide for these receipts.
When you get them keep the certificates with your "Important Documents"


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## jod

Dermot

 Just reading this now, thanks for the useful information as I need all this for a house sale


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## Dermot

jod. Your welcome.


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## STEINER

I have had no dealings with the NPPR charge at all.   A deceased relative's estate will be sorted out over the coming months, currently taking 16 weeks at the probate office.

Deceased didn't own a NPPR, just their PPR, but for the future sale of the PPR a Certificate of Exemption from NPPR is needed?  

I didn't understand the logic of this at first, but presumably it guards against properties being sold after death which had not been declared properly as NPPR?

Out of curiosity, how is the property of a deceased determined to be their PPR and exempt from the NPPR charge anyway so that a Certificate of Exemption is issued?


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## PinkLloyd

First off, thanks to Dermot for the detailed information.

As mortgage switchers, we too now find ourselves in the bizarre situation of having to prove our house was _not_ a NPPR.

It's even so specific as having to find utility bills from the exact months (i.e. March 2009 and July 2013).   This is going to come as a shock to anyone who, for whatever reason, needs to deal with property.  Our house was always our PPR, so it never crossed our minds that we'd ever have to prove that it was _not_ a NPPR!  Imagine the mess in say, 20-30 years when our generation wills the family home to our children!  Try getting an old ESB bill then .....


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## Gervan

I'd like to say a thank you to Dermot too. I had imagined the NPPR charge was nothing for us to worry about, having lived in the same house since 2000. 
I was shocked when the local NPPR section confirmed I would have to prove our house was exempt. I am someone who keeps bills and statements for a good while, but even I could not produce utility bills from 2009. How will most people be able to produce the required "proof" in another few years?
This needs to be more widely publicised.


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## PinkLloyd

Just a quick update, we did eventually get the certificate but not without a lot of hassle, for example when trying to get a copy of a phone bill from 2009 we were told by the phone company that we would have to apply (and pay!) under "Freedom" of Information.  In conversation with a solicitor, he also pointed out that the relevant NPPR legislation has no "sunset" clause, so in 100 years time, if your house is still standing, the unfortunate occupants might also be trying to get copies of your utility bills from 2009.

The bizarre consequences of rushed legislation .....


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## chewyluey

PinkLloyd said:


> Just a quick update, we did eventually get the certificate but not without a lot of hassle, for example when trying to get a copy of a phone bill from 2009 we were told by the phone company that we would have to apply (and pay!) under "Freedom" of Information.  In conversation with a solicitor, he also pointed out that the relevant NPPR legislation has no "sunset" clause, so in 100 years time, if your house is still standing, the unfortunate occupants might also be trying to get copies of your utility bills from 2009.
> 
> The bizarre consequences of rushed legislation .....



This is good information.  Would you be able to provide a list of everything you had to provide in the end ?  Was there a set list of items or was it an "Ad-Hoc" list ?


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## Gervan

_From the email I received from our County NPPR office:_

In order to sell your property you will need to apply for a Certificate of Exemption, this applies to all house sales.

In order to apply you should complete the attached form and return to this office with supporting documentation.  This form outlines the specific proofs needed.  You do not need to send originals, copies are fine.

*Property which is the owner’s Principal Private Residence*

If you determine that you are not liable for the NPPR charge because the property is your principal private residence, it is your responsibility to prove this and you are strongly recommended to keep on file documentary evidence in support of your claim. *Two* forms of documentary evidence from the list below will be required for July 2009 *and two* forms of documentary evidence will be required for March 2013.

Document evidence submitted must be from two different sources, i.e Two different Utility Providers _*or*_ Bank Statement and Driving Licence etc. At least 1 form of the documentary evidence must be from either Social Welfare or from Revenue Commissioners (p60 etc) which shows your name and address.

Documentary evidence includes:-

             o Your Social Welfare or employment address as per your claim/payroll records on the liability date, whichever is applicable

Revenue Commissioner correspondence – P60, P21 etc


Driver’s Licence address


Utility Bills


Bank Statements


Motor Tax Renewal address

Please note that if you are claiming this property is your principal private residence, you should ensure that this information does not conflict with the principal private residence you declared to the Revenue Commissioners. The Revenue Commissioners require that a married couple nominate one property as their principal private residence.

Return complete form with proofs/documentary evidence to:


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## PinkLloyd

Yes, mine was identical.  The kicker for me is the bit "_If you determine that you are *not* liable for the NPPR charge because the property is your principal private residence, *it is your responsibility to prove this*_".  Apparently this is a consequence of the law allowing unpaid NPPR to be charged against the property, i.e. it will appear on the folio you get from the Land Registry and can never be sold unless it is discharged (i.e. paid).  So now one has to _disprove_ something in order to switch a mortgage.  So much for reducing legal costs, as recommended by the Troika ....


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## elcato

If the house was unoccupied due to the owner being in a nursing home for some of this time I presume there is an exemption ? Anyone had to do this ?


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## Mature Couple

elcato said:


> If the house was unoccupied due to the owner being in a nursing home for some of this time I presume there is an exemption ? Anyone had to do this ?


I am just in the middle of sorting out my fathers will and have told we will owe 1100 as he was not living in the house for part of 2011 as he was in a nursing home.  I didnt know anything about this tax that had to be paid and I know that he didnt either.  Why were people not informed of this tax by post?


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## moneybox

As time goes on, there will be less and less awareness of this very  unfair charge that was introduced at the height of the recession for a few short years.  Often wrongly referred to as the second home tax, it applied to anyone that was living elsewhere other than their PPR throughout the time the charge existed.


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## Mature Couple

moneybox said:


> As time goes on, there will be less and less awareness of this very  unfair charge that was introduced at the height of the recession for a few short years.  Often wrongly referred to as the second home tax, it applied to anyone that was living elsewhere other than their PPR throughout the time the charge existed.




I have no problem with paying the tax, its the penalties that are being incurred that seem totally unreasonable as he was deemed exempt for 2013 and its 2012 thats the problem.  He went into nursing home care on 23.4.11 so he only missed out by three weeks.


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## PinkLloyd

Mature Couple said:


> I am just in the middle of sorting out my fathers will and have told we will owe 1100 as he was not living in the house for part of 2011 as he was in a nursing home.


This is crazy .... if I were you I would seek a second opinion as this would seem to imply that if someone were hospitalised they would become liable to a tax simply by virtue of becoming ill.  One of the problems is that administration of NPPR was left to the local authorities which means there will be as many interpretations of this bad legislation as there are local authorities.  Given such legislation, one probably cannot blame local authorities for utilising the opportunity to increase revenue; the fact that cashing in on a family's grief is morally reprehensible, is another issue.

We should be standing outside TDs doors banging our pots and pans about such things as they are easily correctable.  If all else fails, ring Joe?


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## Mature Couple

PinkLloyd said:


> This is crazy .... if I were you I would seek a second opinion as this would seem to imply that if someone were hospitalised they would become liable to a tax simply by virtue of becoming ill.  One of the problems is that administration of NPPR was left to the local authorities which means there will be as many interpretations of this bad legislation as there are local authorities.  Given such legislation, one probably cannot blame local authorities for utilising the opportunity to increase revenue; the fact that cashing in on a family's grief is morally reprehensible, is another issue.
> 
> We should be standing outside TDs doors banging our pots and pans about such things as they are easily correctable.  If all else fails, ring Joe?




It's in the hands of my dads solicitor. Have emailed to say not a problem paying the tax , it's the penalties that am annoyed about


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## elcato

Mature Couple said:


> I am just in the middle of sorting out my fathers will and have told we will owe 1100 as he was not living in the house for part of 2011 as he was in a nursing home. I didnt know anything about this tax that had to be paid and I know that he didnt either. Why were people not informed of this tax by post?


But if this house was his PPR he is exempt. Are you saying he had a second property that it was due on but he was unable to pay it as he was not informed ? If so I would seek an exemption directly from the council on this. I believe you can appeal the fines.


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## Gervan

Perhaps it would be more helpful to refer to this tax as an "unoccupied dwelling" charge. The people who did not have a second dwelling fell into the trap, because they thought it did not apply to them.


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## Mature Couple

elcato said:


> But if this house was his PPR he is exempt. Are you saying he had a second property that it was due on but he was unable to pay it as he was not informed ? If so I would seek an exemption directly from the council on this. I believe you can appeal the fines.


Seemingly according to the council he is not exempt for that year as he was admitted to a nursing home so his main residence was deemed a second residence


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## T McGibney

Mature Couple said:


> Seemingly according to the council he is not exempt for that year as he was admitted to a nursing home so his main residence was deemed a second residence



You shouldn't be taking the council's word as Gospel, and frankly neither should your solicitor. The council's only role here is to hustle as much money out of people as they can. They have no duty of care to assert or safeguard your rights.

You'll need to get proper legal advice on the extent of your liability here, particularly on whether the property ceased to be your father's PPR immediately upon his admission to the nursing home in March 2011.

It rather beggars belief that this could be the case within so short a timeframe, particularly if his/your agreement with the nursing home was on an ad hoc or monthly basis, and assuming that the house wasn't immediately let out, or there was no other reason why at least in theory he couldn't have returned to the house to live even temporarily had his condition improved or stabilised or had the nursing home arrangement not worked out for whatever reason.

However, in order to be sure,  you'll need to have this checked properly, taking into account the exact circumstances of the case. Good luck with it.


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## Mature Couple

T McGibney said:


> You shouldn't be taking the council's word as Gospel, and frankly neither should your solicitor. The council's only role here is to hustle as much money out of people as they can. They have no duty of care to assert or safeguard your rights.
> 
> You'll need to get proper legal advice on the extent of your liability here, particularly on whether the property ceased to be your father's PPR immediately upon his admission to the nursing home in March 2011.
> 
> It rather beggars belief that this could be the case within so short a timeframe, particularly if his/your agreement with the nursing home was on an ad hoc or monthly basis, and assuming that the house wasn't immediately let out, or there was no other reason why at least in theory he couldn't have returned to the house to live even temporarily had his condition improved or stabilised or had the nursing home arrangement not worked out for whatever reason.
> 
> However, in order to be sure,  you'll need to have this checked properly, taking into account the exact circumstances of the case. Good luck with it.


Have been on to the solicitor this morning and she's going to talk to the council


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## gipimann

The FAQs on the NPPR website includes the following:

*What is the exemption for a person who has to be taken into care because he/she is incapacitated due to illness, and who retains ownership of his or her house or apartment? *
_ 
If a person has had to vacate their principal private residence (which they own) due to long-term incapacitation arising from physical or mental illness, the property is exempt from the charge irrespective of the use to which it is subsequently put. The exemption applies irrespective of whether the person lives in a nursing home or care centre, or whether he or she lives with relatives. The only condition is that the person must not own the property in which he or she now resides. “long term mental or physical infirmity” is defined in the legislation as an infirmity requiring the person to vacate the property in which he/she had been dwelling for a continuous period of more than 12 months and that is certified as such by a registered medical practitioner_

That seems pretty clear regarding liability?
https://www.nppr.ie/Faq.aspx#fk13


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## elcato

Gipimann is 100% correct and I have got an exemption for my mother based on this. Go to the website and fill out the form and produce the relevant documents and all will be sorted. Dare I say I have a feeling that there is more to this though.
Regrading the solicitor's advice, he is concerned with making the sale and depending on the price of the house it may be a better option to pay now and appeal later. After all, his job is to make the sale and finalize probate.


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## moneybox

Wasn't there someone on here a while ago trying to gather support un order to mount a legal challenge to the NPPR?


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