# IT staff shortage leaves 17,400 jobs to be filled



## aircobra19 (1 Jun 2007)

[SIZE=-1][broken link removed]

Coincidence [/SIZE]that all these surveys about skill shortages are done by recruitment agencies and 3rd level insitutions with a vested interest? I think not. Especially when you consider other news.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0601/dell.html
[broken link removed]


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## HotdogsFolks (1 Jun 2007)

It's nonsense. I work somewhat in recruitment and there is not a huge shortage.

The Universities start pumping out these surveys a few years ago when they noticed a drop off in interest in IT college places.


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## Firefly (1 Jun 2007)

17 thousand.....maybe "IT Jobs" refers to anyone who works with a computer!


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## aircobra19 (1 Jun 2007)

I work in IT. I would have the opposite impression. Theres a shortage if low end, starter roles.  Even once you have some experience, competition is much intense and thus its still tougher (than it used to be) to get a really good role. Theres lots of poorly paid jobs with poor conditions. But if you have the right skillset, good skills, good experience, there are decent roles available. Just not as many.  If there were 17,400 roles it wouldn't be like that. 

I annoys me that colleges over supply some areas (not just IT) simply to make an easy buck. Theres very poor career guidence and  research on employment trends from colleges, but student take them at face value. 

FAS do some work in this area but it doesn't seem to get through to 2nd and 3rd  level students. Or the workforce at large.

http://www.fas.ie/en/About+Us/Publications+and+Resources/


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## Firefly (1 Jun 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> .....once you have some experience competition is tougher to get a good role.....But if you have the right skillset, good skills, good experience, theres decent roles available.
> 
> Which is it??


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## aircobra19 (1 Jun 2007)

Firefly said:


> aircobra19 said:
> 
> 
> > .....once you have some experience competition is tougher to get a good role.....But if you have the right skillset, good skills, good experience, theres decent roles available.
> ...


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## diarmuidc (1 Jun 2007)

You have to laugh. 

If there is a shortage, then in line with supply and demand economics, the salaries of IT staff must be rising substantially faster than inflation. They aren't ? No shortage.


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## HotdogsFolks (1 Jun 2007)

What depresses me somewhat about this is that the media will give it front page visibility. It seems any old nonsense press release can get into the paper as news these days.


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## carpedeum (1 Jun 2007)

I have 30 years experience in DP and IT and have just taken voluntary redundancy due to being caught between a decision to outsource most of IT followed by a company buyout and all that that entails in terms of culture change etc. I am content at this outcome.

However, for the last five to seven years I was only too aware that my employer could and continued to employ recently first class IT Graduates of between 23 and 26 years of age from DCU, Trinity, Regional IT's and pay them a basic €25k to €30K on yearly contracts. These would be highly skilled people and would usually up stakes and leave after two or three years when they realised that salary and career progression was non existent. New graduates would then be employed! This would also keep old timers like me with all our perks of pension, holiday pay, bonus, VHI etc in our place!

While no longer looking for a job in IT, I have looked around at the job market. Most jobs in IT, especially at mid or senior manager level, have responsilbilities and workloads not in proper proportion to salaries or contracts offered. Most jobs in IT are in the €25K to €45K bracket. There are a lot of jobs in call centres paying very poor money to highly technically skilled IT graduates. Jobs in Accountancy, Sales, Marketing etc pay better for similar pressures and workloads.

IT is becoming like nursing! While IT workers usually enjoy their work, big money doesn't always come with it! Others in jobs that ere enhanced or made easier by information systems e.g. sales (CRM, business intelligence), financial services, retailing (EPOS) etc usually reap the real benefits in terms of money and better hours!

I would advise students and my own kids, to certainly qualify in IT if that is your passion, but, then to do a post-grad in accountancy, business or proper project mangement (there are very few good IT project managers out there!). Oh yeah.. one other option is to specialise in appls like SAP, telecoms. This will ensure that you can earn deserved financial rewards from your early thirties onwards by progessing to other areas in corporate life or going into business on your own, where IT graduates really thrive.


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## aircobra19 (1 Jun 2007)

So I'm not going mad then. 

Carpedeum, your post pretty much sums my experience too. Though I would say if you have the right skillset and experience and find the right role there are higher paying roles out there. Business Analyst, High End Technical PreSales, that sort of thing. But the majority as you say would be in that bracket.


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## Firefly (1 Jun 2007)

I agree with the above and see 2 major problems persuing a career in IT.

1. It is a totally unregulated profession. You need a prof qual to be a doctor, lawyer, accountant etc. Therefore wages are higher as entry is restricted. Anyone can enter IT. 

2. Purely IT work is that it is a cost centre for an organisation....always downward pressure on salaries (unless your an IT seller/consulatant etc). 

I have worked in IT for almost 10 years...


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## aircobra19 (1 Jun 2007)

Good points.


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## Firefly (1 Jun 2007)

Carpedeum..just out of interest - if you are not looking for a job in IT where are you looking?


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## gearoid (1 Jun 2007)

carpedeum said:


> However, for the last five to seven years I was only too aware that my employer could and continued to employ recently first class IT Graduates of between 23 and 26 years of age from DCU, Trinity, Regional IT's and pay them a basic €25k to €30K on yearly contracts.


I wonder who in the public sector is benchmarked against these guys  ?

I know the feeling. It isn't just those courses these days. Polish graduates are often excellent and have a great attitude to work and work for quite low salaries.


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## Purple (1 Jun 2007)

carpedeum said:


> IT is becoming like nursing!


What, about €50'000 a year on average with a pension that's worth another 28% on top of that, short hours with paid overtime and a job for life? Stop complaining!


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## losttheplot (1 Jun 2007)

From what I've read, (http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0531/itdcu.html) this survey is based on 21,000 IT positions advertised on the net, less 3,400 which are advertised twice, giving 17,400 jobs. Hardly the most reliable method. Using this method there is probably a shortage in every industry.

From my experience alot of IT jobs advertised, seem to have been filled long ago but not removed. I also think some recruitment agencies advertise phantom jobs to lure you into sending them a CV to add to their database.

I also agree with the post about third level institutions oversupplying areas. I completed an honours degree in Software Engineering and then took a year out to work. After working in the industry and returning to college, I quickly realised the college had no interest in the quality of the degree or job prospects for it's students. Numbers were the priority. I think this will lead to a deteriation in standards of graduates.

If I remember correctly this story went around last year too, again from a DCU survey. Sounds like they may be seeing numbers for IT courses dropping and are trying to reverse the trend. If there was such a shortage wouldn't employers be offering free cars and sweets etc and wouldn't IBEC be making noise about it.


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## SidTheDweeb (1 Jun 2007)

losttheplot said:


> From my experience alot of IT jobs advertised, seem to have been filled long ago but not removed. I also think some recruitment agencies advertise phantom jobs to lure you into sending them a CV to add to their database.



This is completely true, and anyone who has or does work in Recruitment will tell you this. 
On top of that each 'job' would be advertised by each and every agency that deals with that job 'type' - and because of the competition between the recruitment agents they will often relist the same job numerous time with slightly different details etc. in order to hopefully out-do the competition and attract a CV. 
Recruitment agents advertise numerous phantom jobs 'on spec'.
It's a numbers game for them.

It's a farce really, but even worse is the ineptitude of reporters who peddle this garbage with no critical analysis.


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## aircobra19 (1 Jun 2007)

In my experience probably only 1 in 10 (maybe even less) jobs advertised by agencies is an original job advert. Its like spam. You learn to filter it after a while.


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## carpedeum (2 Jun 2007)

Firefly said:


> Carpedeum..just out of interest - if you are not looking for a job in IT where are you looking?


 
Hi Firefly,

I am trying to redirect my career into a job where I can make a difference, add value to people as opposed to share prices, use interpersonal skills and gain more job statisfaction and personal contentment. 

I am in my late 40's with a family and may sound a bit of a nutter, but, I found that I was in a rut and treading water. This was spilling into my home life. Depression was the next phase. Whenever I retire, whether it be 55, 60, 65 or 70, I want to be able to say that I did my best.

Downshifting is a phrase the gurus used a few year's ago!

Carpe Diem!


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## Technologist (3 Jun 2007)

gearoid said:


> I wonder who in the public sector is benchmarked against these guys  ?


Clerical Officer/Programmers: €21,625-€35,830


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## homeowner (4 Jun 2007)

I dont know about 17000 vacant positions in IT but i have annecdotal evidence of trying to find staff since January and not being able to.  I have advertised on monster, irish jobs and with several recruitment agencies for 2 programmer positions (albeit with specific skills) and over the past 5 months i have found maybe 6 people worth interviewing.  

Most of the CVs are from graduates that are extemely weak in most aspects of programming and IT skills in general, those applying with experieince dont have what we are looking for or are not able to explain what they have done in clear terms and the rest of the applicants are IT grads with Help desk and call centre or localisation experience which is not of use to us.  

At least 60% of the CVs i have read are from outside ireland.  We have narrowed it down to 3 or 4 candidates none of which are irish.  I posted up the job spec in a few of the colleges in Dublin and not one person applied.  It seems to be there are far more jobs out there in IT than there are people to fill them.

I know there are good candidates out there but they must be already employed in good jobs.


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## aircobra19 (4 Jun 2007)

We had the same experience. But IMO it seems like theres loads of graduates, stuck in support jobs because no one will take graduates and train them up. We weren't willing to pay extra for people with experience and wouldn't take on a graduate because we didn't want to train them. So we hired contractors, who have now left, and two experienced guys one of who left after a few months because it he got a better offer. If we'd taked on graduates to train up we'd still have them, or paid much better we'd have got better people.


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## gearoid (4 Jun 2007)

homeowner said:


> I have advertised on monster, irish jobs and with several recruitment agencies for 2 programmer positions (albeit with specific skills) and over the past 5 months i have found maybe 6 people worth interviewing.


I'm intrigued whether you were possibly looking too narrowly, for example a "Hibernate developer" instead of a "Senior Java Programmer", or likewise someone with "Warehousebuilder Paris Edition" or "2+years Cognos Impromptu" instead of a "Senior Oracle Engineer".

I think that some companies are being too picky or that people are being filtered out by the agency if they don't have buzzwords, despite having many years of experience.


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## homeowner (4 Jun 2007)

gearoid said:


> I'm intrigued whether you were possibly looking too narrowly, for example a "Hibernate developer" instead of a "Senior Java Programmer", or likewise someone with "Warehousebuilder Paris Edition" or "2+years Cognos Impromptu" instead of a "Senior Oracle Engineer".
> I think that some companies are being too picky or that people are being filtered out by the agency if they don't have buzzwords, despite having many years of experience.


 
We advertised directly on monster and irish jobs without going through an agency and we used generic terms like you suggested.  I have no problem with training a graduate but when you ask in an interview where do you see yourself over the next few year most of them mentioned going to australia, some mentioned they wanted to start their own business (!) and others couldnt even explain the basic concepts of OO.  Maybe the cream of the crop has been snapped up by the large companies who recruit in colleges but pickings are slim these days.  

Another trend I noticed among the irish applicants in particular who had a few years experience was that on their CV it looked like they had some solid experience but they couldnt back it up in the interview so I didnt believe them.  

For example one chap said he had been designing a small websystem with another developer.  So I specifically asked did you do some design work or were you programming to someone else's spec (which would have been fine with me as I would have expected that to be the case for someone 3 years out of college) but he said he did the design.  So I asked him a few questions about the design he did and he couldn't even draw a diagram and this was supposedly an ecommerce system that he designed.  I have 13 years experience and i would struggle to design a full scale ecommerce shopping cart application from scratch.  

I eventually asked was this an off the shelf shopping cart that you adapted for the product (which is a reasonable thing to do as a developer) but he insisted he designed it himself.  Yet he couldnt tell me one single thing about how the system worked except to detail what the screens looked like.  I knew he didnt have a clue what he was talking about.  That was an extreme case but many of the other applicants were completly spoofing their experience quite obviously, yet put themselves as "expert level" on their cvs.  Its amazing.


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## gearoid (4 Jun 2007)

I take your point. It may be time for me to go back java coding then! I gave up because the standards were so immature (no MVC) and in such a state of flux at the time 00/03. On another point an even cursory knowledge of database principles seems to elude most front-end programmers at the moment... but that's for another day.


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## cousin_borat (4 Jun 2007)

gearoid said:


> "Hibernate developer" instead of a "Senior Java Programmer",


Funny, the company I am currently contracting for are looking for somebody to take over when the project I'm working on goes live. They showed me their Job Spec after weeks of not finding a suitable candidate. Hibernate, Weblogic Integration and Oracle Process Manufacturing.
Told them to change it to J2EE with Application Server Expertise and experience of Database Concepts including JDBC. Suddenly got several excellent candidates.


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## Gabriel (4 Jun 2007)

There are many problems with the IT industry in Ireland today. Chief amongst these is the appalling state of the jokers commonly referred to as "Recruiters". A sorrier bunch I have never met. HOw some of these people (and I have dealt with my fair share) can even hold down a job is beyond me. They fall down particularly badly in relation to IT. I have not met one yet who can do more than just spout buzzwords.

Companies are equally as guilty. There is something rotten in how development is treated in Dublin (and further afield I would hazard). I've worked in IT for many years and seen how poorly many companies operate, treat developers, surround them with idiot project managers (a previous poster mentioned the poor standard of IT Project Management in this country - IT'S TRUE!!!!).

So...to get to my point. When you say you keep interviewing these half-arsed developers who lie, cheat and steal to get into jobs - you need to look at each layer to understand why!! 

*Good* Software Development is an artform (not an engineering process) and justifies the respect it deserves. However, the greatest problem with software development is not the developers...it's the people who surround it...who just don't get it and never did. That's why hundreds of Irish companies still outsource to India and get sh*t code back and wonder why their cost cutting measures haven't worked.

If you want to weed out the bull****ters from the cream...conduct some simple tests before doing any interview. This test can be done online to give you an idea of who you actually want.
The market is fairly buoyant at the moment so that is one possible reason why pickings have been so poor. However, ask yourself are there other reasons why you've had such little interest from good people? What's the money like...and what kind of reputation does your company have in the marketplace amongst developers??


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## aircobra19 (4 Jun 2007)

In Fairness

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000073.html


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## gearoid (5 Jun 2007)

cousin_borat said:


> Hibernate, Weblogic Integration and Oracle Process Manufacturing


Anyone with Oracle Apps is unlikely to have Java/Hibernate. I have operated as both a Java and an Oracle developer, and I have previous Oracle Manufacturing experience, though brief. I wouldn't say there's one person in the country fits that specification. 

I got disillusioned when I was asked to interview candidates for a Senior Oracle Architect/Developer role and found the specification was asking for a DBA. We got DBA CVs but when I probed further they wanted a SQL & PL/SQL developer with some DBA knowledge. None of them applied because the specification was wrong. 

When I left that company I applied for projects a lot smaller than what I'd worked on but people wanted the exact fit in a massive technology space and wouldn't interview people with the proven years of experience  because the agency was filtering on buzzwords. When I enquired of the agency, the person on the phone couldn't understand the basics of the technology area.

I think if companies aren't willing to train people up and many agencies aren't skilled enough to understand the area they're recruiting in then there's no wonder there's recruiting problems. It doesn't mean Ireland lacks developers but it does mean we have a serious recruitment problem.


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## Firefly (5 Jun 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> In Fairness
> 
> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000073.html


 

Great article!!


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