# Waste charges- pay by weight



## Jumpstartdublin (18 May 2016)

the government's announcement today they they are postponing/ scrapping the proposed changes to bin charges is a complete abdication of responsibility. The proposed charges appeared on the face of it to level out and apply appropriate charges to each of the three types of waste households present for collection. Is there a better way to encourage recycling and reduce our ultimate overall charges ...


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## odyssey06 (18 May 2016)

My feeling on this is that the charges were proposed by people who think they are in a perfect world where there is no such thing as illegal dumping.

Dublin City Council alone is spending at least €55,000 a month on illegally dumped waste, which amounts to 45 tonnes a week (one assumes that is going straight to landfill...)
http://www.dublinlive.ie/incoming/illegal-dumping-costs-dublin-city-11348644

Whatever the abstract merits of the proposed changes (thankfully cancelled), they would have made that situation even worse.

Recycling should be encouraged. This was a step in the wrong direction.
I think it's more important to encourage people such that the right waste to go into the right bins because I think that the ability of most private citizens to reduce the amount of actual waste produced is limited.

Had these changes come into effect, I guarantee there would be more paper and bottles and cans and toiletries dumped on our streets, laneways and parks rather than into green bins.


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## ajapale (18 May 2016)

I think the pricing structure should be regulated in the same way as the energy regulator. There should be a maximum service charge (say €100 per year) and a stiff charge for refuse (say 35c/kilo) and a relatively low rate for food waste (say 10c/kilo) and free dry recycling or a rebate of say -5c/kilo for dry recycling. This way serious recyclers are rewarded.


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## Leo (19 May 2016)

From The Indo article here, it suggests only the dry recyclable waste levy is being dropped, and the minimum charge of 11c/kg for black bin waste and 6c/kg for compostable waste still stands.



ajapale said:


> or a rebate of say -5c/kilo for dry recycling



I'd love that! I'd be making money.


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## ajapale (19 May 2016)

The indo is not correct (or misses the point somewhat) when it states "The system also planned to introduce a 2 cent per kilo levy for green bin waste, made up of tin cans, paper and milk cartons. This morning, Mr Coveney said no levy would be set out for this waste." 

The _minimum_ charge for dry recyclables is being dropped. So providers can charge anything they like. Old proposal: providers can charge anything providing its more than 2c/ kilo. New proposal: no minimum charge prescribed for dry recyclables.


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## Leo (19 May 2016)

Good point! It'll be interesting to see what the providers do. They all seem to be waiting for the others to publish prices first.


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## Sue Ellen (30 May 2016)

Relative received this e-mail over the week-end from Greyhound and it would appear to make things a lot more expensive than now or am I totally wrong?  I don't use Greyhound and notice that Thorntons are saying on their website that they will charge for the green bin but have yet to notify anyone of their intended charges.

*Update:  31.05 - Thorntons have now changed their website and are showing green bins as free.  Their weekly service charge at €2.00 will be €1.25 cheaper per week than Greyhound, their domestic rate at 35c per kg will be the same and the brown bin at 20c will be 3c cheaper than Greyhound.*

Dear Customer,
* 

Introducing Pay by Weight 
* On July 1st 2016 new Pay-By-Weight legislation on waste collection will become law. The EU-led legislation aims to increase recycling so we can meet our climate change obligations. Under the new rules, all waste companies must charge by weight for biodegradable waste (brown bin) and residual (black bin) with the option to charge for recycling (green bin). To encourage recycling, Greyhound Household has opted to keep recycling free. According to government figures, more than 90% of households can save money by segregating their waste better. 70% of waste currently in black bins could be diverted to less costly green and brown bins. Please click here to see what goes in your bin.







Our price plan is structured to encourage households to divert material away from the black bin. Following the changeover, any unused service amount from your current price plan will be credited back to your account on the 1st of July due to the change in your service dates. The new weekly service charge above will be deducted from your account balance starting from the 1st of July 2016.

If you sign up to our automatic top up (ATU) service you will receive a *3% bonus* on all payments until July 2017. An ATU means that you will not have to worry about having enough credit on your account. Please * click here* to see how to sign up to ATU.

*Questions?*

It is natural that you may have some questions. Before you pick up the phone, please view our Pay-By-Weight Section on *www.greyhound.ie*. We have increased the number of contact centre staff to facilitate the change-over. You can also email us at info@greyhound.ie detailing your question or request a call back. Our phone lines will be busy, so please be patient.

Please [broken link removed] for Pay by Weight FAQ's.

*The Green Bin*

To ensure this service remains free, green bins will be carefully monitored to ensure they are not contaminated with non-recycling material.
*
And Finally*

Thank you for your continued support and custom. We will try to make this transition to Pay-By-Weight as smooth and easy as possible.

Best wishes,
The Greyhound Household Team


*Thank you for your continued custom & valued support*


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## odyssey06 (30 May 2016)

I'm confused... why are prices going up so dramatically? It's supposed to be a minimum charge, not an additional charge, by the government... The proposed service charge on its own is almost the same as Greyhound were charging for all in deals 18 months ago...


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## theresa1 (30 May 2016)

Single people dont put out much waste so they need to get money from these people hence the increased service charge - totally predictable. They are not a charity - they will get the same revenue in or more -one way or another.


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## thedaddyman (30 May 2016)

Our  provider (in culchie land, not the Pale) is moving to a direct debit only or pay in advance system but are taking an additional €30 in July in advance and are requiring all customers to have a minimum of €30 in their account or they won't collect a bin. There is then an annual charge (as per now) and a pay per kilo charge but both of those have not yet been announced.


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## Delboy (30 May 2016)

Just did some calculations from my Greyhound history over the past 12 months.
Avg weight per black bin = 27kilos
Avg weight per brown bin = 17kilos

I paid a flat fee of €200 for all bins for the past 12 months.

Under the new scheme with a flat fee of per week and pay by weight for black and brown:
Black bins = €243
Brown bins = €104
Flat fee = €169
Total = €516...a 158% increase. And no account given for having a lot of young kids in the house.

And to think people nearly went to war over water charges which were less than half the cost and had waivers, allowances etc.

This new scheme is very expensive and will lead to a lot more dumping in urban areas. 

Who do we thank for it....Alan Kelly or Labour/FG or was this another great dictat from Brussels?


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## Sue Ellen (30 May 2016)

Delboy,

I did a quick similar exercise for this relative and they now have deal with Greyhound which will disappear come July.  They will go from €204 to approx €500 per year!!  I was thinking exactly the same as you when it comes to the dumping.  To think that Alan Kelly said people could reduce their charges by recycling more.


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## theresa1 (30 May 2016)

I already see dumping as I walk to work every day. I can see this really getting out of hand in say 3-6 months. Might be the next election issue -maybe they could promise us a commission and then go to dail committee and then a dail vote on rubbish.


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## Delboy (30 May 2016)

I recycle 100% of everything that could possibly go into a green bin.
But with 2 kids in nappies still (household of 6), there's no way I can get my bill down. So a stealth tax on large-ish families by the looks of it.

And yes, I recall Kelly's spoofing about people actually saving money under this scheme. At the standing charge as set out, not 1 person will save money. it's not possible.

Looks like those anti-waste privatisation protesters will finally be proved right.


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## Leo (30 May 2016)

I think the waste companies will be delighted if people blame the government on this (current or previous). This strikes me as the waste companies taking advantage of the changes to significantly hike their charges. I'm not aware of anything in the legislation that could justify some of these price hikes.


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## Delboy (30 May 2016)

And also consider how the waste companies have slashed their wage costs through replacing middle aged unionised Irish workers with mainly Eastern Europeans.
Greyhound are an Isle of Man registered company if I recall correctly so no visibility over their accounts


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## Sue Ellen (31 May 2016)

Leo said:


> I think the waste companies will be delighted if people blame the government on this (current or previous). This strikes me as the waste companies taking advantage of the changes to significantly hike their charges. I'm not aware of anything in the legislation that could justify some of these price hikes.



The Government aren't blame free though either.  For Simon Coveney to say 'However, individual waste collectors can still implement a charge if they see fit' is disgraceful.


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## Leo (31 May 2016)

Sue Ellen said:


> The Government aren't blame free though either.  For Simon Coveney to say 'However, individual waste collectors can still implement a charge if they see fit' is disgraceful.



I don't have any problem with that, there's no requirement on the providers to change their approach for dry recyclables based on that. It they choose to do so, that's their call.


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## Sue Ellen (31 May 2016)

Just posted this update to my post above in case anyone misses the change to the Thorntons issue of charging for the green bin:

Update: 31.05 - Thorntons have now changed their website and are showing green bins as free. Their weekly service charge at €2.00 will be €1.25 cheaper per week than Greyhound, their domestic rate at 35c per kg will be the same and the brown bin at 20c will be 3c cheaper than Greyhound.


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## Leo (1 Jun 2016)

Sue Ellen said:


> Their weekly service charge at €2.00 will be €1.25 cheaper per week than Greyhound, their domestic rate at 35c per kg will be the same and the brown bin at 20c will be 3c cheaper than Greyhound.



So they might be cheaper than the main competition, but the new service fee is twice what they charged me last year, and based on their previous lift charge per maximum weight allowed in black bins (40kg), the per kilo price is going up from 24.75c to 35c!!

So the service that was costing me €69.80 will now cost around €130, City Bin would charge €180. I can't find price details on the Greyhound site, but assuming the above €3.25 weekly charge and 35c per kilo, it would cost €200.


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## dieter1 (1 Jun 2016)

The two biggest increase in costs this year will be motor insurance (up by generally 50% for most people) and now bin charges (up by my reckoning 100% for most people).

Its amazing how these issues are not headline when the people moaning about water charges (a measly €160 a year) are getting such airplay.  my bins and car insurance will cost me an extra €600 next year and there is absolutely nothing that I can do about it!

Also, where did Alan Kelly pull his numbers from?  He said that 87% of the population would pay less with the new weighing system.  Laughable!


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## odyssey06 (1 Jun 2016)

I think a lot of people made the point about strangling water charges at birth so that in 10 years time we're not having the same discussion about it doubling \ tripling \ quadrupling in cost...

Someone should do a flyer drop with a photo of Alan Kelly and that quote beneath him, along with the quoted prices here... that's a political career we need to finish off before it can do any more damage.


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## T McGibney (1 Jun 2016)

odyssey06 said:


> I think a lot of people made the point about strangling water charges at birth so that in 10 years time we're not having the same discussion about it doubling \ tripling \ quadrupling in cost...
> 
> Someone should do a flyer drop with a photo of Alan Kelly and that quote beneath him, along with the quoted prices here... that's a political career we need to finish off before it can do any more damage.



Except that the cost of providing potable water to households will continue to rise and probably do so exponentially because of the public demand for ever more stringent water quality and public health standards and the decaying state of our water transmission network.

We can pretend that this isn't happening if we contrive to have taxpayers (including those who can't access the public water system) blindly stump up the cost as we do already with innumerable stealth taxes, or we can confront it by having a transparent charges system that reflects the actual cost.

Kelly has expressed his preference an open and transparent approach. I happen to agree with this stance myself. 

You are free to disagree but don't cod yourself for a second that in doing so you will be somehow stopping the cost of your water consumption from rising sharply in the coming years.


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## odyssey06 (1 Jun 2016)

T McGibney said:


> Kelly has expressed his preference an open and transparent approach. I happen to agree with this stance myself.You are free to disagree but don't cod yourself for a second that in doing so you will be somehow stopping the cost of your water consumption from rising sharply in the coming years.



I cannot reconcile openness and transparency with the comments by Alan Kelly as a Minister in relation to the cost impact of pay by weight. Either he was codding himself, or he was trying to cod the general public.
If there is a public statement by Kelly in which he envisages waste charges doubling as a result of this legislation, I withdraw that remark.

I cannot recall a public statement by Kelly as a Minister or TD in which he said that he envisaged residential water charges on the order of multiples of what were in place during his time in government. If you have a source for that, please provide it. Otherwise, I think it's highly doubtful to speak of openness and transparency on his behalf in relation to that issue either.


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## T McGibney (1 Jun 2016)

Sure we all know that the water charges levied since last year didn't cover the full economic cost of provision of water.  It was you who mentioned the prospect of water costs doubling \ tripling \ quadrupling within 10 years. That's on the cards even if you avoid dedicated water charges being imposed and even if Kelly's political career is over.  

I stand over my view that Kelly's preference for charges is more open and transparent than your own for stealth taxation. That isn't a defence of Kelly himself - I couldn't give a fig for him or his party or their ideology - but it's self-evident.


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## odyssey06 (1 Jun 2016)

T McGibney said:


> I stand over my view that Kelly's preference for charges is more open and transparent than your own for stealth taxation. That isn't a defence of Kelly himself - I couldn't give a fig for him or his party or their ideology - but it's self-evident.



I think if someone's preference is for charges, then openness and transparency demands that you be honest about the level of charges that are required.

A separate requirement of openness and transparency attaches to declaring the actual costs of funding something - whether it's water charges or waste charges - separate to the question of the source of those funds.

Understating the charges is as dishonest as understating the costs.

A stealth tax is a tax *levied *in such a way that is largely unnoticed, or not recognized as a tax. It has nothing to do with the purpose to which the tax revenue is assigned. But by your definition, if you take a step back and think about it, our public health service is funded through 'stealth' taxation.


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## T McGibney (1 Jun 2016)

odyssey06 said:


> I think *if someone's preference is for charges,* then openness and transparency demands that you be honest about the level of charges that are required.



But not otherwise? Wow.


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## diver (1 Jun 2016)

theresa1 said:


> Single people dont put out much waste so they need to get money from these people hence the increased service charge - totally predictable. They are not a charity - they will get the same revenue in or more -one way or another.



I'm with Thorntons
I paid 162.40 in lift charges this year including an annual fee of 50 euro.
With these new changes, my new annual bill will rise to 264.05 euro.
There's only me in the house. I recycle as much as I can and all food/garden waste goes into the brown bin.
I am beyond raging.........


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## Leo (2 Jun 2016)

What are the alternatives for low volume black bin users? Are there legitimate options to use the Civic Amenity sites for recyclables and similar drop off facilities for general waste?


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## Gervan (2 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> What are the alternatives for low volume black bin users? Are there legitimate options to use the Civic Amenity sites for recyclables and similar drop off facilities for general waste?



This is what I do. We are a household of two, now, and we take a standard size black bag of rubbish every four to six weeks. The charge is €5 which includes a carful of recyclable waste. 
I asked how they would handle the new charge per kg, but the operatives there had no idea how it would apply to the site.


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## Leo (2 Jun 2016)

Gervan said:


> This is what I do. We are a household of two, now, and we take a standard size black bag of rubbish every four to six weeks. The charge is €5 which includes a carful of recyclable waste.
> I asked how they would handle the new charge per kg, but the operatives there had no idea how it would apply to the site.



What site are you bringing them to that charges €5?


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## Gervan (2 Jun 2016)

Leo, it's the Kinsale Road site in Cork. I am hoping there will not be a flood of householders switching.
I see the Kilkenny Dunmore site charges €5.50. Does each council offer this facility?


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## vandriver (2 Jun 2016)

It's €15 in Ballymount.


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## Leo (3 Jun 2016)

Thanks Gervan & vandriver. I had seen the Ballymount site but was hoping there might be another option around Dublin around the €5 mark that would make this a more compelling option.


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## PolkaDot (3 Jun 2016)

How can Thorntons justify increasing their service charge by 108%?? It is going from €50 per year to €104! Their costs have not increased by the same amount. I estimate that my bin charges will increase as follows:

Service Charge = 108%
Black Bin = 29%
Brown Bin = 109%

It's a joke


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## AlbacoreA (3 Jun 2016)

dieter1 said:


> The two biggest increase in costs this year will be motor insurance (up by generally 50% for most people) and now bin charges (up by my reckoning 100% for most people).
> 
> Its amazing how these issues are not headline when the people moaning about water charges (a measly €160 a year) are getting such airplay.  my bins and car insurance will cost me an extra €600 next year and there is absolutely nothing that I can do about it!
> 
> Also, where did Alan Kelly pull his numbers from?  He said that 87% of the population would pay less with the new weighing system.  Laughable!



I see stats that the cost of living isn't all that high compared to other countries and compared to Irish wages. But for a very long time wage increases have been a long way behind increases in living costs, housing etc. 

We have people talking about new car sales, on the other people unable to afford medical car and dentists, pensions, car insurance etc.  There seems to a widening wealth gap. Sections of the economy completely out of balance with each other.


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## Nordkapp (13 Jun 2016)

AES provided the following information to me on my account.

_I can advise you the charges for Pay by Weight is as follows, The service charge is €90 for six months or €15 per month. 

·  Waste bin  = 25 cent per KG
·  Recycling bin = 0 cent per KG
·  Organic bin =  15 cent per KG
·  Glass Bin = 0 cent per KG
_
Stealth tax again, It will see my very modest waste collection bill go from €285 to €350 from the projected spreadsheet i put together.

I passed the spreadsheet to AES who did not dispute it. The service charge goes up from 75 to €90 alone.

Will be cancelling next week when bins are emptied.


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## thedaddyman (13 Jun 2016)

My current service charge is €23 per month. My supplier down the country is reducing this to €14 per month and then charging waste @23 cent per kg and compost at 16 cent per kg. Recycling is free.


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## Nordkapp (13 Jun 2016)

I am on a small 140 litre bin, not the 240 and not the 360. If you consider for a young family that throws away nappies, then for every child at a rate of 6 nappies a day, their charge will be at least 1.50 per day due to the weight etc of them.

It is becoming an eye watering expensive country.


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## alexandra123 (13 Jun 2016)

This is going to cost me an absolute fortune. I burn anything I can. 
I normally put out a bin once every 6 weeks and that costs me 5 euro with no annual charges. I put a bin out around 8 times  a year at a cost of 8*5 = 40 euro....that does not even cover the annual charges people have to pay.


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## Nordkapp (13 Jun 2016)

Glass bin is empty, tomorrow general waste is emptied and next week recyclable’s and compost bin. Then they can take the bins away.

I have 3 weekly containers lined up for glass, recyclables and a 40 litre general waste lidded container.


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## odyssey06 (13 Jun 2016)

It occurs to me that if one is on good terms with your neighbour, given the exhorbitant fixed cost of the service charges floated, that it would make sense to double up and put all the waste into one set of common bins and split the bill 50-50. Assuming both parties are broadly speaking using the same amount of weight.
If I missed anything in the pricing structure that would mitigate against that, please correct me.


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## Nordkapp (13 Jun 2016)

odyssey06 said:


> It occurs to me that if one is on good terms with your neighbour, given the exhorbitant fixed cost of the service charges floated, that it would make sense to double up and put all the waste into one set of common bins and split the bill 50-50. Assuming both parties are broadly speaking using the same amount of weight.
> If I missed anything in the pricing structure that would mitigate against that, please correct me.



No, that is plausible, except for me there are single neighbours on both sides, both are away alot so don't know what they will do but definitely there are cost savings there in regard to the service charge.


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## Brook (13 Jun 2016)

I just did a calculation of my bin charges from Greyhound . I'm currently paying €200 per year. Under the new system I expect to be paying over €600 per year !

To Quote Alan Kelly "In 87% of cases people ended up paying less for waste as a result of this initiative, so it's a win-win across the board, it's a win-win in relation to people paying less."

He forgot to mention that it's a win-win for bin companies.Hopefully some journalist will investigate the real reason for the price hike and the reason it was sneaked in before the general election.


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## Nordkapp (14 Jun 2016)

Brook said:


> I just did a calculation of my bin charges from Greyhound . I'm currently paying €200 per year. Under the new system I expect to be paying over €600 per year !
> 
> To Quote Alan Kelly "In 87% of cases people ended up paying less for waste as a result of this initiative, so it's a win-win across the board, it's a win-win in relation to people paying less."
> 
> He forgot to mention that it's a win-win for bin companies.Hopefully some journalist will investigate the real reason for the price hike and the reason it was sneaked in before the general election.



Yes, and not a lot of people are aware of this, these bills can vary so much that people will be caught unaware until they see the direct debit come out. A 140 litre bin could have 50kg of waste every two weeks if one were not care. That could in one month cost the house holder €25 euro in charges plus the €15 plus the compost bin upwards of €45 per month.


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## emeralds (14 Jun 2016)

Nordkapp said:


> Glass bin is empty, tomorrow general waste is emptied and next week recyclable’s and compost bin. Then they can take the bins away.
> 
> I have 3 weekly containers lined up for glass, recyclables and a 40 litre general waste lidded container.



And assuming you will bring your glass and recyclables to a bring centre (which will be free) what will you do with the general waste?


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## Nordkapp (14 Jun 2016)

emeralds said:


> And assuming you will bring your glass and recyclables to a bring centre (which will be free) what will you do with the general waste?


It will dropped off at the father in law who lives alone and pay him the few euro for the weight until the waste companies come out with better rates.


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## inaquandert (14 Jun 2016)

Its madness to make bin collection so expensive. That many people will probably stop paying for it.    No tax relief or anything any more.    Its more attractive to people to have a bin they should be trying to make it.  Not less attractive.    There ate already huge problems around the country with people dumping and disposing of waste where they shouldn't. And causing annoyance to others.  This will no doubt increase.    What a stupid move


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## pudds (14 Jun 2016)

inaquandert said:


> Its madness to make bin collection so expensive. That many people will probably stop paying for it.    No tax relief or anything any more.    Its more attractive to people to have a bin they should be trying to make it.  Not less attractive.    There ate already huge problems around the country with people dumping and disposing of waste where they shouldn't. And causing annoyance to others.  This will no doubt increase.    What a stupid move




Agree 100% even as things stand now Fingal coco collect tons of rubbish from the streets every year. I can't remember the stats but they were enormous.
Crazy crazy stuff, banana republic here we go again!


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## odyssey06 (14 Jun 2016)

Polluter pays principle? Not if they just dump it. More like precedence has been set by responsible consumer gets ripped off principle.

When alan kelly said 86 percent would save money he was including the projected increase in illegal dumping as thats the only way u can save money now. Looks like the same guy did those sums as did labours polling before last election.


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## Onceagain (14 Jun 2016)

Any one have a composter in back garden. One less bill.Do they attract rats, want to use just for fruit, veg, tea bags, egg shells.


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## Nordkapp (14 Jun 2016)

odyssey06 said:


> Polluter pays principle? Not if they just dump it. More like precedence has been set by responsible consumer gets ripped off principle.
> 
> When alan kelly said 86 percent would save money he was including the projected increase in illegal dumping as thats the only way u can save money now. Looks like the same guy did those sums as did labours polling before last election.


Yeah, passed the charges and my spreadsheet on to my local TD, he is to raise it internally in his party and is personally impacted having a young family. He too was questioning Kelly's figures.


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## Nordkapp (14 Jun 2016)

Onceagain said:


> Any one have a composter in back garden. One less bill.Do they attract vats, want to use just for fruit, veg, tea bags, egg shells.


They do and we have had 2 over the years. If they are set tight to the ground resting on concrete blocks there should be no problem.


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## Jazz01 (15 Jun 2016)

Onceagain said:


> Any one have a composter in back garden. One less bill.Do they attract rats,


Had one a few years ago, got rid of it due to a rat stopping off there.

Only fruit & veg peelings, shredded news paper, tea bags & some small amount of grass clippings went into it. The flap at the end of the composter had been eaten / chewed by the rat.


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## Leo (15 Jun 2016)

Onceagain said:


> Any one have a composter in back garden. One less bill.Do they attract rats, want to use just for fruit, veg, tea bags, egg shells.



I'm on to my second DIY one I made myself using off-cuts and shiplap timber. Along with the above, I put in a lot of grass cuttings, egg cartons and some paper. Every now and then I'll throw in a load of wood shavings from some power tools as well. The paper and shavings helps to stop it getting too wet. In nearly 15 years of having one, I've never had rats even though there is some wasteland close by. I did get some mice in it last year, it's far enough away from the house that that wouldn't bother me too much, but baited traps seems to have dealt with them. 

My parents live in the countryside and even put cooked food waste in theirs. They've had the occasional rat over the years, but it's the countryside by fields regularly used for cereal crops, where you'll always have rats, but they haven't really been an issue.


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## odyssey06 (16 Jun 2016)

This is just another example of how the government does not live in the same world as the rest of the country. If I got my figures wrong on the 87% I'd be sacked!


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## ashambles (16 Jun 2016)

My guess is Kelly told that only 13% of people were estimated to be perfectly dividing their waste.

The other 87% are somewhere along a spectrum - maybe putting some cardboard into refuse or something. Kelly wrongly assumed since 87% of people don't perfectly divide their waste that when they did they'd see savings.

For a waste company, their costs are mostly salaries (fixed) equipment (increased by pay by weight) and disposal costs which are related to weight - or volume. If you introduce a system that almost guarantees people will further contaminate recycling then you further increase costs.

The idea that companies can maintain profits by reducing charges for 87% and increasing them on the 13% (the perfect recyclers) was laughable. Kelly achieved the near impossible of out performing his predecessor (Hogan) in terms of ignorance.


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## michaelm (16 Jun 2016)

Dare I suggest that pay-by-weight is another anti-family policy.  It's certainly going to cost me much more.  I much prefer a fixed yearly charge based on size of bin and set number of lifts, pay it and forget about it . . a simple system that the politicians just had to fubar.


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## thedaddyman (16 Jun 2016)

odyssey06 said:


> This is just another example of how the government does not live in the same world as the rest of the country. If I got my figures wrong on the 87% I'd be sacked!



Alan Kelly very nearly did get sacked, at the very least he is on the back benches now where he can't mess anything else up for a while


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## Delboy (16 Jun 2016)

I'm sure Kelly's lackeys worked out that 87% figure based on 11c per kilo  waste charge and no standing fees.
Of course the Waste Companies had a different way of looking at things and were happy to leave their new charges under wraps until as late in the day as possible.

Momentum really ramping up on this now. It's made the Dail floor, Coveney is arranging to meet the Waste companies. TDs getting hammered. The Left have spotted an opportunity and are setting up protests.
Once Joe Duffy got it, the Govt were in bother!!!


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## Nordkapp (16 Jun 2016)

Have to say and said it before, FG has serious question marks over its competency to get basic stuff right in Government. The water fiasco, garda stations, health and now this waste fiasco.


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## demoivre (16 Jun 2016)

Still no word from Greenstar about how much we'll have to pay from July.  I currently pay €9 per month standing charge, €11.50 per lift for the waste bin and €4.50 per lift for the compost bin. I can understand the per kg charge for the waste bin which goes to landfill but the compost bin doesn't go to landfill so why change the pricing! I have a 140l compost bin which when full probably weights at least 100kg so at 15c per kg is going to cost me €15 per lift versus €4.50 at present !! Hard to say how much the waste bin will weight as it depends on what's in it.


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## peteb (16 Jun 2016)

demoivre said:


> Still no word from Greenstar about how much we'll have to pay from July.  I currently pay €9 per month standing charge, €11.50 per lift for the waste bin and €4.50 per lift for the compost bin. I can understand the per kg charge for the waste bin which goes to landfill but the compost bin doesn't go to landfill so why change the pricing! I have a 140l compost bin which when full probably weights at least 100kg so at 15c per kg is going to cost me €15 per lift versus €4.50 at present !! Hard to say how much the waste bin will weight as it depends on what's in it.



Greenstar in Fingal are:
€13 per month standing charge
0.33 per kilo - general waste
0.20 per kilo - compost
0.00 per kilo - recycling


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## Nordkapp (16 Jun 2016)

peteb said:


> Greenstar in Fingal are:
> €13 per month standing charge
> 0.33 per kilo - general waste
> 0.20 per kilo - compost
> 0.00 per kilo - recycling



Saucy prices to be honest. If they are not careful all the waste companies could find themselves privatised.


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## demoivre (16 Jun 2016)

peteb said:


> Greenstar in Fingal are:
> €13 per month standing charge
> 0.33 per kilo - general waste
> 0.20 per kilo - compost
> 0.00 per kilo - recycling



Wow if they apply those charges in the south east my bin charges will rocket!


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## aristotle (16 Jun 2016)

I just did calculations on my bin lifts since Jan 1st this year. Based on AES new charges I will be going from currently paying a flat fee of €180 all-in cost for 6 months to €305 for 6 months.

The waste companies are profiteering on this, plain and simple.


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## michaelm (16 Jun 2016)

demoivre said:


> I have a 140l compost bin which when full probably weights at least 100kg


I suspect you may have overestimated that.  My 240l waste bin, albeit not a compost bin, which is filled to the brim every two weeks, is not easy to move and weighs in (if the Panda website is to be believed) @ 32Kg.


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## Leo (16 Jun 2016)

Nordkapp said:


> Have to say and said it before, FG has serious question marks over its competency to get basic stuff right in Government. The water fiasco, garda stations, health and now this waste fiasco.



But a lot of the problem here isn't of the government's making. It's the providers using the opportunity to double service charges is the real kicker.


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## Leo (16 Jun 2016)

michaelm said:


> I suspect you may have overestimated that.  My 240l waste bin, albeit not a compost bin, which is filled to the brim every two weeks, is not easy to move and weighs in (if the Panda website is to be believed) @ 32Kg.



68kg is the heaviest my bin has been recorded at.


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## Leo (16 Jun 2016)

Just thinking here, and trying to think of any reason why all the providers seem to be massively increasing service charges... I wonder is it due to there no longer being an incentive to wait until your bin is full before putting it out for collection? For example, up to now in my 2 person household, the black bin is only put out on average once every 8 months when it's full. From now on, I'll pay the same regardless if I continue to wait until it's full, or put out whatever is there every collection day. So a 17 fold increase in the collection effort for the provider for the same lift fees.


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## peteb (16 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> Just thinking here, and trying to think of any reason why all the providers seem to be massively increasing service charges... I wonder is it due to there no longer being an incentive to wait until your bin is full before putting it out for collection? For example, up to now in my 2 person household, the black bin is only put out on average once every 8 months when it's full. From now on, I'll pay the same regardless if I continue to wait until it's full, or put out whatever is there every collection day. So a 17 fold increase in the collection effort for the provider for the same lift fees.



Possibly in that Panda seem to factor their service charge in that way.  Again in Fingal Panda are quoting:
€43 for 6 months/ €86 annual standing charge
Refuse Bin per KG €0.27 with €3.20 lift charge
Compost €0.16 with 2.56 lift charge
Recycle  0 with no lift charge

so lower annual fee but but making it up on the lift cost.  

Annualising the cost and working it back to per month, it was about €30 with greenstar and €25 with Panda.


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## peteb (16 Jun 2016)

Greenstar are actually in receivership I think.  And Panda were to buy them out but I think the matter is being looked into by the competition authority.  In Swords we have only those two.  So it creates a monopoly.


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## odyssey06 (16 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> Just thinking here, and trying to think of any reason why all the providers seem to be massively increasing service charges... I wonder is it due to there no longer being an incentive to wait until your bin is full before putting it out for collection? For example, up to now in my 2 person household, the black bin is only put out on average once every 8 months when it's full. From now on, I'll pay the same regardless if I continue to wait until it's full, or put out whatever is there every collection day. So a 17 fold increase in the collection effort for the provider for the same lift fees.



I had the same idea, but is there anything in the legislation to prevent them for charging a lift charge also?
I don't understand why they can't have service charge, lift charge and per kg which would seem to make more sense.


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## Nordkapp (16 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> But a lot of the problem here isn't of the government's making. It's the providers using the opportunity to double service charges is the real kicker.


Under the watchful eye of FG


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## Protocol (16 Jun 2016)

Greenstar northwest

Standing charge = 8.50 pm, has been increased steadily over past few years from zero.

8.50 pm = 100 pa approx

New pay by weight

Waste = 35c
Compost = 20c
Green = 5c


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## Nordkapp (16 Jun 2016)

Kelly now washing his hands of the matter

[broken link removed]


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## Easeler (16 Jun 2016)

Got a feeling its going to be abandoned like the water charges ,goverment have more serious problems coming down the line like UK leaving the EU and don't forget they Will be soon taking there holidays.


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## becky (16 Jun 2016)

I'm in Limerick and received an invoice from recycle right for €127 for 1st July to 31st December 2016, so €260 for the year.  I am very happy with that as I was expecting a higher charge based on reading this thread.  I put my green out every 2 weeks, my waste every 6 weeks or so and my compost most weeks.  Am i missing something?


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## Marion (16 Jun 2016)

Midlands:

€312 per annum to AES  for a number of years.

Green bin -140 litre waste collected every 2 weeks
Brown bin -140 litre compostables collected every 2 weeks
Blue bin 240 litre glass collected every 3 months
Blue bin 240 litre recyables collected every 2 weeks

The bins and charges are shared with my neighbour so we divide the yearly charge.

Not sure yet how the new charges will impact prices

Marion


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## igora (17 Jun 2016)

Hi Guys, 

How can you actually prove (or possibly challenge) what weight is in the bin? Is it going to be a case of what the supplier says,  goes?


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## vandriver (17 Jun 2016)

becky said:


> I'm in Limerick and received an invoice from recycle right for €127 for 1st July to 31st December 2016, so €260 for the year.  I am very happy with that as I was expecting a higher charge based on reading this thread.  I put my green out every 2 weeks, my waste every 6 weeks or so and my compost most weeks.  Am i missing something?


Seems like recycle right are missing the pay by weight idea.


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## Leo (17 Jun 2016)

Nordkapp said:


> Under the watchful eye of FG



But that makes no sense. What part of the legislation do you feel is responsible for doubling in service charges that the providers were, and still are completely free to set themselves?


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## demoivre (17 Jun 2016)

michaelm said:


> I suspect you may have overestimated that.  My 240l waste bin, albeit not a compost bin, which is filled to the brim every two weeks, is not easy to move and weighs in (if the Panda website is to be believed) @ 32Kg.



I hope I'm wrong ! I only put food waste in the compost bin and when packed full it definitely feels heavier than a few 40kg bags of coal, hence my estimate. We are a family of six so I suppose we can save money by eating less fruit and veg, and so less peelings in the compost bin, and switch to eating processed rubbish food packed in plastic and tetrapack containers, that can be recycled for free. You couldn't make it up!


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## Leo (17 Jun 2016)

igora said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> How can you actually prove (or possibly challenge) what weight is in the bin? Is it going to be a case of what the supplier says,  goes?



After my next collection, I'm tempted to weigh what I put in with a luggage scales just to make sure they're in the right ball park.


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## newirishman (17 Jun 2016)

With CityBin on the North Side in Dublin. If I have a similar usage pattern for the 2nd half of the year as I had for the 1st half, costs will be going up by 25%.
Standing charge more than doubles.
They wrote in they information email that stats show that pay-by-weight leads to decrease in waste between 10-25%.
even if I use the 25% reduction I'll still end up with a 10% increase overall. 

Not impressed.

Complaint to them already but not holding my breath for a reply I like.


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## demoivre (17 Jun 2016)

Just spotted [broken link removed] pay by weight info page. I'm guessing their waste bin average weight should read 33kg instead of 330 kg, which for me , would seem about right. I estimated my compost bin at 100kg, they are saying 125kg so my compost bin charges increase 5 fold (20c per kg ) and the standing charge is increasing by €1 per month. My waste bin will cost about the same I think ie 35kg at 35c per kg. All told I will be paying about €200 per annum more than at present, mostly for making extensive use of our compost bin, which you would think should be encouraged.


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## chrisboy (17 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> After my next collection, I'm tempted to weigh what I put in with a luggage scales just to make sure they're in the right ball park.



Easier way would be to put your full bin on a normal weighing scales before and after collection..


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## Brendan Burgess (17 Jun 2016)

Are there any good summaries of what the different companies charge in the Dublin area? 

If it hasn't been done, would anyone like to compile one? 

Brendan


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## Leo (17 Jun 2016)

chrisboy said:


> Easier way would be to put your full bin on a normal weighing scales before and after collection..



If you have scales where you can balance a wheelie bin on it fully then yeah, that'd be ideal.


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## Nordkapp (17 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> But that makes no sense. What part of the legislation do you feel is responsible for doubling in service charges that the providers were, and still are completely free to set themselves?



Leo, the State has decided to be the Regulator in the matter, they simply did not look at the broader picture of the entities who provide the service looking to increase their charges that they have in most cases kept unchanged for many years.


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## Nordkapp (17 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> If you have scales where you can balance a wheelie bin on it fully then yeah, that'd be ideal.



All bins have an RFID tag, the bin is weighted on the tipping and after the tipping to get a net weight. In my case it is accurate to 0.5KG however there is nothing to prevent someone throwing an item of waste into your bin that will make it heavier. 

My account shows the weights for all last year for each week.

I did query double weights recently and was told that if some waste is stuck in the bin they have to lift it twice, in my case a weight of 20 kg and 10 kg were recorded totaling 30kgs for that week or €7.5 for that collection alone not including the €15 service charge.


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## Delboy (17 Jun 2016)

Not a lot coming out of Coveney's meeting this evening.
Just a vague threat that he will act if the Waste companies go ahead with their charges as currently laid out.

He seems to be focusing on the standing charge increases. And while thats part of the problem, the per kilo charges are the real issue IMO. They are 3 times the minimum level set out by Kelly.
It's a tax on large/largish families!

I've a feeling FG are going to totally miss the point on this, think they have resolved the issue only for it to rare up again in late Summer when people have had their first few lifts done and are billed for same


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## Nordkapp (18 Jun 2016)

Nothing in the papers today on the meeting. FG competency and failure to deal with this and the housing crisis may work to oppositions favour so we could see an autumn election.
Meanwhile my bins will be empty Tuesday and then I cancel. I'll manage my own waste and charge myself.


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## noproblem (18 Jun 2016)

Seems one of the big costs as regard weight and rubbish are the "nappies". There's baby's nappies and there's the pads and nappies older people with certain ailments have to put on and they can all weigh a tonne when wet. I'm lucky that our children are all grown up and the nappy problem is over for us, but I can see the situation arising where an awful lot of them are going to be dumped all over the countryside if these new costs come in.


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## pudds (18 Jun 2016)

I read somewhere that this pbw scheme will bring at least 40% 'consolidation' to the industry which means there will be mergers, (like Greenstar n Pana) are trying to do at the moment and therefore there will be less competition for customers which defeats the whole reason for privatising it in the first place and then they can charge what they like.

Should be given back to the councils to run. Less trucks on the road, so less air pollution and less noise
pollution as bin day is only once a week, here it is a daily collection including bank holiday Mondays.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Jun 2016)

Got this interesting email just now from City Bin. It seems reasonable, but my waste charges are relatively small, so I haven't really followed the issue.  

Brendan 



There has been an enormous amount of confusion and misinformation around the pay-by-weight issue. Customers are upset with the new charging system and waste contractors are upset with the government. We are deeply sorry that events have unfolded in this manner, and we too are totally frustrated with the situation.

However, to try and add some clarity to the debate, please take a few minutes to read the points below. They may shed some light on the situation.


*Nobody likes paying for the guy next door* but this is exactly what has been happening with household waste collection in this country. Through the ‘flat fee’ charging system, a household producing 1.5 tonnes of waste is paying the same as the household producing 0.75 tonnes of waste. There are far too may low users currently subsidising high users and, under pay by weight, these high users cannot receive lower bills without dramatic behaviour change and this won’t happen overnight.

*The previous minister’s statement (made a few weeks before the election) that 87% of households would see reduced bills is mathematically impossible* without further subsidisation, either from the taxpayer or the waste collector. The analysis supporting this statement did not include current prices in the Dublin market. Waste collection charges in Dublin are, on average, 25% less than the rest of the country. As well as the cross subsidisation going on within Dublin through flat fee pricing, there is also cross subsidisation with customers outside Dublin. With pay-by-weight, more people outside Dublin will see their charges go down as they currently pay market rates. That’s just a fact because prices in Dublin barely reflect the fixed cost element.

*The minimum charges per kilogram do not come near meeting the actual costs of disposal*. Gate fees at disposal sites are higher than 11c per kilogram for landfill waste and the 6c per kilogram for organic materials. Although the minimum charge for the green bin has been removed from the legislation, waste collectors have to pay to get rid of recycling. The idea that waste collectors get paid for recycling is a common myth. *Saying that recycling should be free is like saying that electricity generated from wind farms should be free*.

*The cost to manage your waste goes way beyond the cost of disposal*. There are trucks, bins, salaries, fuel, tax, depots, administration etc. etc. The majority of this is captured by the service charge. There has always been some form of a service charge element in the pricing structure. This is not new. Under pay-by-weight the service charge is separate.

*There are three reasons why a household’s bill could go up with pay-by-weight.* The first is if the household produces more waste than the average household. The second could be if the household doesn’t currently use the green and brown bin optimally. The third is where the household may be producing average or even below average waste but are on a legacy flat fee or per lift pricing plan where this plan doesn’t cover the cost of providing the service and hence is a beneficiary of the current cross subsidisation.  Pay-by-weight brings these anomalies to the fore.

As I mentioned above, the 87% claim was incorrect and unhelpful. *Under pay-by-weight there is no mechanism for continued cross subsidisation. *Bills will certainly go down for many households around the country and those who benefit most are those that (a) reduce the overall amount of waste they throw out through prevention and re-use, and (b) maximising their recycling efforts through proper use of the brown and green bins.

Finally, from our analysis, we believe that, on average, under the new legislation roughly one third of bills will go down, one third will stay in or around the same and one third will go up. Over time, the households whose bills initially go up will start to climb back down as they reduce output and use the three bins properly.

We have no control over this legislation and, at this point, we have no idea if it will go ahead. As soon as we have clarity on the situation we will provide you with an update. The City Bin Co. have always set their stall out on service and this is where we excel.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.


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## Nordkapp (20 Jun 2016)

Brendan, the problem is that those of us who manage and segregate our waste know the impact of the charges apart from the obvious fact is that they go up. No account has been taken for young families and low income families in regard to these charges. Should the charges come in then these sections of society will be impacted most and resort to "fly tipping" to reduce cost.

In my own case I was frankly surprised at the service charge amount (€180 per year) before a bin is lifted. Then I looked at the history of collections for the household of 4 noting we were a 3.5 person family for a part of last year and saw an extra €100 added straightaway through the 25 cent / kg charge and the 15 cent / kg charge for compost, (grass cuttings weight a tonne). Composting should be free.

Our waste is managed well to this point, in fact we needed two recycling bins, but even with that I felt our base charge of €285 was excessive for what we got. Bear in mind the recyclable element makes the company money, all those plastic bottles, cardboard and tin cans.

What has annoyed me is that I have now 5 wheelie bins, 2 recycling, 1 compost, 1 glass and 1 general waste. They take up acres of space that luckily I have but the new jungled biweekly collection introduced here since end May makes a mockery of catching the right bin the right week (even with AES Ire's coloured chart). If you happen to be away on a particular week you are rightly stuffed.

Now I intend to cancel my AES contract tomorrow. By managing it locally myself I can turn around the waste when I want, the issue is that there should be deposit point's made available to bring general waste in small quantities to, and pay the weight involved in landfill of that item. You would be surprised what is thrown into general waste and that aspect has seen the general waste aspect drop right down this week. It is not quite there yet but I'm sure it will get there.


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## odyssey06 (20 Jun 2016)

Thanks for posting that City Bin update, but it leads to as many questions as it answers.

Are there no economies of scale in Dublin collections by having a concentration of customers in the one place? Fuel is specifically mentioned as a cost.

How, if Dublin prices are 25% less than elsewhere, and Dublin is the largest single market, can it be the case that if they have to pay full market rates (like the rest of the country), that only 1/3 of City Bin customers will see price increases? What is their customer breakdown?

What is the cost per kg of disposal? 
Have they subsumed the cost per kg for green bin disposal into their service charge, or into their black \ brown bin charging structure?

Why, when the legislation was being introduced, did they not make a submission outlining how wrong the 87% figure was, and clearly stating that their expectation was that 1/3 of customers would see price increases and why that was the case?


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## Delboy (20 Jun 2016)

A lot of the above may be true but the point remains that this is a tax on families and/or those with people who use continence pads for example. There are no allowances made as was the case with Irish Water for kids.
So for a family of 2 + 4 (2 of whom are in nappies) we will be hammered, despite fully using our green bin.

But I would like to see some independent analysis of the Waste Companies need to charge over 3 times the min limits set out in the legislation. And how so many of them came in around the same rate...very suspicious.
But we can't see their accounts can we...they're registered to the Isle of Man or Jersey! So if it's fairness and clarity they want, they can practice what they preach before trying to triple their annual charge to me at least


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## newirishman (20 Jun 2016)

Delboy said:


> A lot of the above may be true but the point remains that this is a tax on families and/or those with people who use continence pads for example. There are no allowances made as was the case with Irish Water for kids.
> So for a family of 2 + 4 (2 of whom are in nappies) we will be hammered, despite fully using our green bin.
> 
> But I would like to see some independent analysis of the Waste Companies need to charge over 3 times the min limits set out in the legislation. And how so many of them came in around the same rate...very suspicious.
> But we can't see their accounts can we...they're registered to the Isle of Man or Jersey! So if it's fairness and clarity they want, they can practice what they preach before trying to triple their annual charge to me at least



It is not a tax. (Water charges are by the way also not a tax but that's a different discussion.) 
Families gets hammered? Well, I guess that's what the child benefit payments are there for essentially. 

I am not happy about the increase but i am also not a fan that everything gets paid from general taxation - I am as you can imagine a huge fan of the "polluter should pay" principle. Still royally annoyed by the increase in standing charge. I still think that a combination of low standing charge and combination of lift- and pay-by-weight charge would be more transparent and also fairer.

Very much agree though on the lack of impact of "competition" - the price difference between the two options that are available in my area are almost negligible.


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## odyssey06 (20 Jun 2016)

I think we need to move to a tendering process, where waste companies bid for the disposal contract for particular council zones for an annual contract. Surely that would mean lower costs for the companies themselves, if they have to send their vans to one zone only, and know all bins in one zone are for them.

It would be up to the council to agree the annual service charge and per kg charges that would apply to anyone contracting with the waste company in their zone. I can't reconcile the polluter pays principle with competition. Also, the real polluters are those that don't dispose of their waste properly, i.e. dump it or put it in wrong bins - not the people properly disposing of their waste.
The polluter pays principle comes up against the practicality of how easy it is to dispose of your waste illegally - and loses as many times as it wins.

If we're that concerned about what is ending up in landfill, we need to levy the real source of the waste - producers and retailers and factor the cost of disposal into the price on the shelf. If the packaging in your product is landfill bound, then you need to be levied on that.


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## Tintagel (20 Jun 2016)

If I leave my bin in a shed for 4 weeks. Why do I have to pay a private company a fee (standard charge) to do this?


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## odyssey06 (20 Jun 2016)

newirishman said:


> It is not a tax. (Water charges are by the way also not a tax but that's a different discussion.)
> Families gets hammered? Well, I guess that's what the child benefit payments are there for essentially.



If it isn't a tax, what is it?
What should we call extra costs incurred as a result of government legislation? 
People are using 'tax' here and elsewhere, in that sense, for want of a better word.

Maybe we need a better word, to distinguish between such costs that end up flowing into government coffers, and those costs that do not. I'm not sure if levy is quite the right word either.
At the moment, I'll stick with using tax because it captures the most important thing about this, which is that it's being incurred as a result of government introduced pay by weight legislation.


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## becky (20 Jun 2016)

vandriver said:


> Seems like recycle right are missing the pay by weight idea.



Not at all, I had to leave all 3 bins out a few weeks back for tagging.  I assume that as the invoice was raised before 1st July, old rates are still applying.  According to their website I can look into my account and see my weight per bin, so will wait and see.


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## Branz (20 Jun 2016)

Tintagel said:


> If I leave my bin in a shed for 4 weeks. Why do I have to pay a private company a fee (standard charge) to do this?


If I leave my car in a shed for 4 weeks. Why do I have to pay a private insurance  company a fee (standard charge) to do this?
equally for tax and NCT


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## Leo (21 Jun 2016)

odyssey06 said:


> If it isn't a tax, what is it?
> What should we call extra costs incurred as a result of government legislation?
> People are using 'tax' here and elsewhere, in that sense, for want of a better word.
> 
> ...



The costs of every single thing you spend money on is influenced by a raft of government legislation. That doesn't make every penny you spend tax.

This is a charge for a utility service, based on a similar model to electricity or other utilities. Everyone pays a service charge and in come cases government levies to subsidise rural services or network upgrades, then charges after that are determined by how much you use.

Calling this a tax and blaming the government is playing right into the waste companies hands here. They have taken an opportunity to massively hike their prices across the board, and yet most of the complaints are being directed at the government, letting them off the hook.


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## Delboy (21 Jun 2016)

Absolving the Govt entirely is surely not right either.

From Media reports this AM, it appears the Dept of the Environment did very little (i.e. none) research into the impacts of the introduction of  pay by weight on average/typical households across the country.
Clueless


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## Branz (21 Jun 2016)

Interesting point here about cross contamination of the recycling bins with non recyclable material, based on differential pricing.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fears-householders-will-contaminate-recycling-bins-406018.html
"....“In the processing and recycling business, as with anything, it becomes a product. And the price you get for that product depends on the quality of the material coming off the production line. The viability of the business is based on the quality of product we can get off the production line — it’s central to the whole thing,” he said....."

This contamination issue is a problem with pyrex and other stuff going into the glass recycling.


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## Tintagel (21 Jun 2016)

Branz said:


> If I leave my car in a shed for 4 weeks. Why do I have to pay a private insurance company a fee (standard charge) to do this?
> equally for tax and NCT


Do you pay a standard charge on top of your insurance cost for your car? The bin companies are being paid for the lift and for the weight. That is all that they should be paid for.

When my electricity goes down there is a team of engineers out repairing the lines, improving the infrastructure and all that goes with providing that service. The standard charge that the utility companies charge (I don't agree with it by the way) is not comparable to the bin companies imposing a similar charge. What extra service are the bin companies actually offering here? 

Do the supermarkets, newspaper deliveries, milk deliveries etc charge other than a per delivery fee?


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## Leo (21 Jun 2016)

Delboy said:


> Absolving the Govt entirely is surely not right either.
> 
> From Media reports this AM, it appears the Dept of the Environment did very little (i.e. none) research into the impacts of the introduction of  pay by weight on average/typical households across the country.
> Clueless



You need to take any argument against a pay by weight system to Europe, the Irish government stalled about as long a they could.


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## Leo (21 Jun 2016)

Branz said:


> This contamination issue is a problem with pyrex and other stuff going into the glass recycling.



It gets worse....how about nappies in the green bins! There's a real danger the quality of dry recyclables will further deteriorate to the point where charges are inevitable.


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## Leo (21 Jun 2016)

Tintagel said:


> The standard charge that the utility companies charge (I don't agree with it by the way) is not comparable to the bin companies imposing a similar charge. What extra service are the bin companies actually offering here?



Waste disposal is by definition a utility. There is a cost associated with maintaining IT infrastructure and staff the manage a customer base in businesses such as this. I have no problem paying a reasonable service fee to cover these costs. The problem is, €2 a week is not anywhere close to being a reasonable cost.



Tintagel said:


> Do the supermarkets, newspaper deliveries, milk deliveries etc charge other than a per delivery fee?



Different business model, so irrelevant.


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## thedaddyman (21 Jun 2016)

Tintagel said:


> Do you pay a standard charge on top of your insurance cost for your car? The bin companies are being paid for the lift and for the weight. That is all that they should be paid for.
> 
> When my electricity goes down there is a team of engineers out repairing the lines, improving the infrastructure and all that goes with providing that service. The standard charge that the utility companies charge (I don't agree with it by the way) is not comparable to the bin companies imposing a similar charge. What extra service are the bin companies actually offering here?
> 
> Do the supermarkets, newspaper deliveries, milk deliveries etc charge other than a per delivery fee?



Of course they do, it's just wrapped up in the per unit price and is not transparent.

In the case of bin charges, if the service charge goes then the price per weight will go up significantly as a result. Hence heavy users will pay more.


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## Delboy (21 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> You need to take any argument against a pay by weight system to Europe, the Irish government stalled about as long a they could.


According to an Environment correspondent from 1 of the papers on the radio this AM, there was no pressure on Ireland from Brussels to bring in Pay by Weight any time soon. Our recycling %'s were very high by EU comparisons and continuing to go in the right direction.


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## Delboy (21 Jun 2016)

Its going to be suspended for 1 year but those who want to switch to pay by weight can do so immediately.
In the meantime, your bills for the next 12 months will show what the weights were and how much you'd have paid if on pay by weight.

See you back here in 12 months time when it all brews up again

edit- 2 points of concern still:
1. Greyhound and Citybin aren't part of this agreement so they could still plough ahead
2. The 'Freeze' seems to only apply if you put out the same/less waste v's the previous 12 months. What happens if you put out more waste in the next 12 months?


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## Branz (21 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> It gets worse....how about nappies in the green bins! There's a real danger the quality of dry recyclables will further deteriorate to the point where charges are inevitable.



I was having my brekkie when I was penning that: it did occur.
In passing
This arrangement is wrong:
_Waste contractors who are members of the Irish Waste Management Association have also agreed to provide a weight allowance to HSE patients supplied with incontinence wear to reduce their annual waste charges. IWMA members are committed to an arrangement whereby the additional weight attributed to non-infancy incontinence wear will be collected free of charge._

First up:
The waste company will get a list of HSE patients supplied with pads.
Secondly, what about those of us that have to buy our own pads and get rid of them.

This is the middle classes paying for the won't pay mob yet again.


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## thedaddyman (21 Jun 2016)

This more or less sums it all up

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/06/20/government-announce-sequel-to-irish-water/


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## Tintagel (21 Jun 2016)

Branz said:


> If I leave my car in a shed for 4 weeks. Why do I have to pay a private insurance  company a fee (standard charge) to do this?
> equally for tax and NCT


Your car is still insured against Fire and Theft while in the garage.

If I go off to Spain for a month I should be able to suspend my car tax for that month if the car is on my own property.

Not sure what you mean concerning the NCT?


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## Nordkapp (21 Jun 2016)

Branz said:


> I was having my brekkie when I was penning that: it did occur.
> In passing
> This arrangement is wrong:
> _Waste contractors who are members of the Irish Waste Management Association have also agreed to provide a weight allowance to HSE patients supplied with incontinence wear to reduce their annual waste charges. IWMA members are committed to an arrangement whereby the additional weight attributed to non-infancy incontinence wear will be collected free of charge._
> ...



First up it won't happen, Data Protection issues with supplying names of your neighbours who wear incontinence pads.

Regarding your own pads, as with nappies they have a 500 year biodegradable life cycle, burn them


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## odyssey06 (21 Jun 2016)

Leo said:


> The costs of every single thing you spend money on is influenced by a raft of government legislation. That doesn't make every penny you spend tax.
> This is a charge for a utility service, based on a similar model to electricity or other utilities. Everyone pays a service charge and in come cases government levies to subsidise rural services or network upgrades, then charges after that are determined by how much you use.
> Calling this a tax and blaming the government is playing right into the waste companies hands here. They have taken an opportunity to massively hike their prices across the board, and yet most of the complaints are being directed at the government, letting them off the hook.



The waste company sector is dysfunctional. Why on earth were they cross-subsidising heavy use customers from low use customers?
Are they obliged to provide the service - if they are, that is a public service obligation (PSO). If they are not, why weren't they just cherry picking low use customers via their pricing structure and pocketing the profits instead of using it to subsidisee other customers?
The more I think about it, the less it adds up.

But, when the government, by their legislation to achieve policy goals (worthy or unworthy), disproportionately impacts sectors of society financially, and in doing so displaces costs that were previously borne collectively or through general taxation, I'll continue calling that difference between base price and government influenced price a tax until I hear a better word for it. And I'm all ears for a better word.


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## Leo (22 Jun 2016)

odyssey06 said:


> The waste company sector is dysfunctional. Why on earth were they cross-subsidising heavy use customers from low use customers?



I'm not sure dysfunctional is totally fair, though they may have appeared so recently as they waited to see what the competetion were doing in relation to pay-by-weight. I feel opportunist is more accurate. Most of them have jumped on this opportunity to significantly up their income while avoiding most of the blame or backlash for doing so. Service providers using low use/cost customers to subsidise heavy users is very common. 



odyssey06 said:


> Are they obliged to provide the service - if they are, that is a public service obligation (PSO). If they are not, why weren't they just cherry picking low use customers via their pricing structure and pocketing the profits instead of using it to subsidisee other customers?



They're licensed to provide service to an area as defined by the local authorities.


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## 44brendan (22 Jun 2016)

thedaddyman said:


> This more or less sums it all up


The difficulty WW are now having is that their parodies on topical news items are being overtaken by the antics of the "Balklymagash County Council" who appear to have taken over the running of the country while we were all away at the Euros. Ministers appear to be competing with each other for the annual "Foot in mouth award" and in driving forward a level of incompetency which never ceases to amaze me! As my granny used to say "thanks be to God I'm on my way out"!!


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## aoifeh (18 Jul 2016)

I moved from Leixlip to Dublin 14 a few months ago and just received my first Panda Waste bill. My bills have more than doubled (170 for three months) and now equate to my car tax! 

Panda waste charge per weight AND per lift. I phoned to query the bill and was told 'we have always charged per weight in your area'. 

So this area is a cash cow for Panda seemingly. Annoying as this is, I am more frustrated by the fact that they charge per weight and per lift. Is this allowed?


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## Leo (18 Jul 2016)

aoifeh said:


> So this area is a cash cow for Panda seemingly. Annoying as this is, I am more frustrated by the fact that they charge per weight and per lift. Is this allowed?



Yes, it is. I presume there are other operators in that area, did you shop around before signing up to Panda?


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## aoifeh (18 Jul 2016)

Greenstar are the only other provider servicing our road and they charge per weight and per lift too.


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## thedaddyman (17 Aug 2016)

After all the furore around this died down, my provider delivered a brown compost bin. It's been fascinating to watch as a result of that how little actually now goes into my normal waste bin ( the expensive one) and how much goes into the cheaper compost bin. Given the fact that my standing charge was being reduced by my provider, I'm starting to think that there may not be a significant rise in cost for me after all as a result of this. I'm wondering what other people's experience is?


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## Delboy (17 Aug 2016)

As you cannot put cooked foodstuffs into the brown bin and as a lot of products aren't recyclable, we still 3/4's fill 1 black bag every week (2 adults + 4 young kids). The nappies go straight into the black bin itself each day and thats what fills our bin.
Our brown bin is 95% garden cuttings, 5% raw veg cuttings.


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## emeralds (17 Aug 2016)

Delboy said:


> As you cannot put cooked foodstuffs into the brown bin and as a lot of products aren't recyclable, we still 3/4's fill 1 black bag every week (2 adults + 4 young kids). The nappies go straight into the black bin itself each day and thats what fills our bin.
> Our brown bin is 95% garden cuttings, 5% raw veg cuttings.


According to Panda you can put cooked food in the brown bin
https://www.panda.ie/household/what-can-i-put-in-my-bin/brown-bin.html


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## bleary (17 Aug 2016)

Yep all foodstuff should go into brown bins. My understanding is that you are advised not to put cooked foodstuff into your own compost bin because it attracts rats but the wheelie bin is ok


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## thedaddyman (17 Aug 2016)

Cooked food, hair and tea bags can go into my compost bin


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## Delboy (17 Aug 2016)

So you can put cooked food in the Brown bin but are 'advised' not to because of attracting rodents.
I think I'll stick with throwing it into the fully sealed Black Bin


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## vandriver (17 Aug 2016)

Delboy said:


> So you can put cooked food in the Brown bin but are 'advised' not to because of attracting rodents.
> I think I'll stick with throwing it into the fully sealed Black Bin


You misunderstand!
You are advised not to put cooked food in a home composter.


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## Leo (17 Aug 2016)

Delboy said:


> So you can put cooked food in the Brown bin but are 'advised' not to because of attracting rodents.
> I think I'll stick with throwing it into the fully sealed Black Bin



You can get biodegradable bags that you can use in the compost bins.


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## ajapale (22 Aug 2016)

You need to check with you provider what can go into the brown compost "caddy style" bins and what kind of bags are acceptable to them. Different providers use different digestor technologies. We have had PBW and segregation for many years and our provider used to accept the greensax style bags but they changed their technology and now only accept brown paper bags or newspaper lined bins (so 1950's!). The binmen are trained to reject anything that even looks like a plastic bag. Incidently the reason the old large brown bins were replaced by teeny caddy bins was to discourage garden waste.

Initially I made great savings by strictly segregating, reducing and reusing. Recently because of the Dublin controversy and the government bottling the introduction of PBW the local providers have just jacked up the standing charge by 100% and all the gains have been lost.


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