# Fines for late payment of tolls



## tvcabinet (16 May 2009)

I recently traveled up the country to a family affair, never drove up there before. 

I didn't have any knowledge of barrier free tolls or how to pay the particular tolls (I do now of course). 

I  thought the way these things are done is you pass through then they send you a letter to say how much you owe. The toll was €5.10 which I'm happy to pay but when the letter arrived it said I had to pay €3 fine  for not paying before 8pm the following day, this I object to very much. 

Some days ago I tried to pay the €5.10 but the machine in the shop would not allow me to do so. I got another letter from them now saying that I have to pay another fine of €41.50 because I didn't pay the toll within two weeks of the first letter. 

In the letter they sent to me they point out the legislation requiring me to pay the toll (which I have no problem with) but I don't see anything  requiring me to pay a fine to a private company and before a deadline and 2) any fines for late payment.

My question is does a private company have the right to fine people in this manner as the legislation only requires me to pay a toll which i have endeavored to do but the payment system they have won't allow me to do this?

As i said i have no problem with the toll just with the fines system they operate.


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## Smashbox (16 May 2009)

Did you not see any of the signs telling you to pay the toll before 8pm the next day? Because they are there.


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## ajapale (16 May 2009)

Moved from askaboutlaw to cars and motoring.

Please read the posting guidelines and forum stickies and post in the correct forum.


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## tvcabinet (16 May 2009)

Smashbox said:


> Did you not see any of the signs telling you to pay the toll before 8pm the next day? Because they are there.


 
No I did not. As I said I have never travelled that way before.


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## JoeB (16 May 2009)

That's interesting about the legislation.. can you list the title of the relevant act please? It should be on StatuteBook.ie.

The signs are there, and it is likely you will have to pay. I'd say you may get off the extra 40 Euro fine but you will likely have to pay something.

Did you ignore the letter when it arrived with the 3.00 Euro penalty? To be honest, if everybody simply ignored the letters then the system would be unworkable, so I feel you are partly to blame. I was looking for the signs yesterday... there is a sign on the left hand side of the road, and another gantry type sign over the motorway, which has nothing else on it apart from info on the toll. I do agree however that the signage could be clearer.. however the letter they sent was likely quite clear and you did ignore that too.

I'd be interested in a link to the legislation or the name of the Act, I'm sure there must be something in it allowing for the fines for late payment.

PS, edited to add...
You are complaining about a deadline, and receiving a fine for missing it..

Have you thought about this? Do you think you should have an infinite amount of time to pay? If so no-one would pay, what then?

So a deadline is clearly needed. So what's the problem?, do you think the timescale is too short?

And as for the fine.. do you think there should be no fine for missing the deadline? (now that we agree that a deadline is necessary?) If there was no fine then again no-body would pay, they would all miss the deadline, and then continue not to pay.. for ever. So a fine is also clearly needed. 

So your only problem can only be the (possibly inadequate) signage.. however the signage is there, I think you will have a hard time going to court on this one. And it will be hard for you to justify ignoring the letter.

However you can dispute the extra 40 Euro fine on their website.. you can only choose reasons from a list, there is no free text entry as far as I know, what grounds are you disputing it on?


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## tvcabinet (16 May 2009)

JoeBallantin said:


> The signs are there, and it is likely you will have to pay. I'd say you may get off the extra 40 Euro fine but you will likely have to pay something.
> 
> Did you ignore the letter when it arrived with the 3.00 Euro penalty? To be honest, if everybody simply ignored the letters then the system would be unworkable, so I feel you are partly to blame. I was looking for the signs yesterday... there is a sign on the left hand side of the road, and another gantry type sign over the motorway, which has nothing else on it apart from info on the toll. I do agree however that the signage could be clearer.. however the letter they sent was likely quite clear and you did ignore that too.
> 
> ...


 
There are a few different acts

section 64(5) of the roads act 1993

section 64(1) of the roads act 1993

section 64(8)...

I didn't ignore the letter


> Some days ago I tried to pay the €5.10 but the machine in the shop would not allow me to do so.


I said quite clearly I had no knowledge of this type of tolling as I have never driven up north before. I knew it existed, of course, but didn't know that you had to pay it before 8 the following night nor did I know even where to pay it. I have no problem with paying €5.10 as the toll but have serious reservations about paying €3 because of a lack of knowledge.
On the letter they sent me is


> As registered owner/driver/person *who has entered into an agreement* in respect of the payment of tolls of the above referenced vehicle, you are liable to pay these toll charges.


I have asked them for this agreement I am supposed to have agreed to.

Regarding the grounds I am disputing the €41.50 extra charge their machines will not allow me to pay €5.10.
You may say €3 what's €3 but to me it is not fair and I don't like companies putting charges on without my knowledge.

If I was travelling that way every day and constantly abusing the tolls I would agree with you but this was my very first time traveling using the road.


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## peteb (16 May 2009)

Ah c'mon, it was all over the papers at the time when it was happening.  As you saw the signs as you went throught you could have checked it out online when at home.  But you didnt bother too much, and then when you got the letter you didnt bother too much either! It was only when you got the fine you realised you were in trouble!

Im assuming by driving on the road which is clearly marked as a toll road that you automatically enter into the agreement.  Its like when you drive into a carpark and dont exit within 5 mins, you've automatically agreed to its terms and conditions!!


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## tvcabinet (17 May 2009)

peteb said:


> Ah c'mon, it was all over the papers at the time when it was happening. As you saw the signs as you went throught you could have checked it out online when at home. But you didnt bother too much, and then when you got the letter you didnt bother too much either! It was only when you got the fine you realised you were in trouble!
> 
> Im assuming by driving on the road which is clearly marked as a toll road that you automatically enter into the agreement. Its like when you drive into a carpark and dont exit within 5 mins, you've automatically agreed to its terms and conditions!!


 
Ah c'mon yourself. I'm only driving 1 and a half years. In fairness I did bother I tried to pay but the machine wouldn't let me pay. I did not see the signs saying you had to pay before 8pm the next night, and also if I had know I would have done so. This was my first time going through that particular toll.

When I first posted this question I had real doubts about whether or not to put this into askaboutlaw or cars and motoring. the question I asked was


> My question is does a private company have the right to fine people in this manner as the legislation only requires me to pay a toll which i have endeavored to do but the payment system they have won't allow me to do this?


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## Smashbox (18 May 2009)

The signs are there. It was in the papers, on the radio, on the news. I'm not driving long either, and I certainly don't take the road much, but I know of it. 

You really should have checked it out before you travelled. How long did you think you had to pay the toll? You have to be realistic here.


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## AlbacoreA (18 May 2009)

tvcabinet said:


> ...Regarding the grounds I am disputing the €41.50 extra charge their machines will not allow me to pay €5.10.
> ....


 
What machine?


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## DubShelley (18 May 2009)

In fairness there is at least one fairly massive sign saying "don't forget to pay your toll by 8pm tomorrow night" on approach to the toll...


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## JoeB (18 May 2009)

Obviously the machine wouldn't accept 5.10.. as the charge was 8.10 at that stage. I'm sure the machine would have accepted the 8.10. How do these machines work anyway, I've never seen one.. you have to put in your reg I suppose.

If you insist upon doing it your way then these problems are the result. You could have rang the phone number and tried to pay, or asked about the machine. Instead you did nothing...

The one issue with signs is that sometimes trucks block the view of the left hand side of the road.. however there is at least one overhead sign (going Northwards at least), and the word 'Toll' is printed on the road surface too.


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## Vinnie_cork (18 May 2009)

have you paid the €41?

The next level is a €156 fine.... so beware..... dont just ignor the €41 fine and say sura i dont be up there in the city..... tolls... what tolls.... 


BTW.... if you have every listened to talk radio would would have at some point heard people giving out about M50 Tolls and Fines


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## Stephenkelly (18 May 2009)

There are signs everywhere and how you didn't know there electronic tolls on the M50 is beond me anyway (no matter what part of the country you are from).


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## Smashbox (18 May 2009)

Stephenkelly said:


> There are signs everywhere and how you didn't know there electronic tolls on the M50 is beond me anyway (no matter what part of the country you are from).


 
Have to agree with that, the talk about it was everywhere


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## NovaFlare77 (18 May 2009)

tvcabinet said:


> I recently traveled up the country to a family affair, never drove up there before.
> 
> I didn't have any knowledge of barrier free tolls or how to pay the particular tolls (I do now of course).
> 
> ...


 
A few questions and points:

Your objection to paying the €3 "late payment" fine - In fairness to them, there are signs saying before the toll bridge saying there is a toll and signs afterwards saying what you have to do to pay. The signage could be alot better, but there is signage there. Even if you couldn't see how much was owed, a bell should have gone off that you should follow up on it.

That said, I'm not going to get into the whole "it was in the papers, etc" because in fairness to you, if you didn't think you'd be using the toll at the time you read about it, chances are, it got stored in your short term memory and then dumped. I do it all the time. Of course, that doesn't mean you have a basis for not paying, just saying that I understand if you didn't know understand it all beforehand

You then say that you went to pay the €5.10 a few days ago. Did the letter telling you about the €5.10 fee set out a timeframe for payment and did you attempt to pay for it within this timeframe? I've never received one of these letters, so I don't know what the contents are. Does it say that the money has to be paid by X date?

In answer to your overall question, I would say that if the letter told you there was timeframe and that you would incur penalties for not paying within that time, then yes, it is right that they apply a fine. I would also suspect that the legislation allows for fines, even if the company hasn't specifically referred to it.


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## McCrack (18 May 2009)

It amuses me sometimes reading or hearing this kind of thing off people and then when people point out the stupidity of it all and how a bit of common sense is needed they get defensive and stroppy.

OP you may have heard of 'ignorance of the law does not excuse' and it applies in this instance I'm afraid.

The reality is you have no argument or grounds to challenge this payment notice. You can choose to continue ignoring it until you are up in front of a District Court Judge and sure you can protest there but to be honest the court really won't be on your side.


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## AlbacoreA (18 May 2009)

All you'll achieve by waiting to pay it is to increase the fine. Everyone else manages to pay it.


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## samanthajane (18 May 2009)

If you phone them up explain the situation and be nice to them, then they will only request the original toll amount from you......on the condition that you sign up to get the easypass from them. 

My lovely ( somewhat dozy mother ) had my car while i was away in England, and for some reason only knowm to her she thought it was now free to go through the toll bridge ( another one that didn't see the signs!!! ) So when i got back home i had a letter telling me i owed a total of €47.50 for not paying the orginal fee plus fines. 

When i phoned i was told that there were 6 more of these which came to nearly €300!! The girl on the phone was really nice signed me up there and then ( i needed to get one anyway ) and wiped off all the other fines so i only ended up paying the original toll fee. 

I think i remember her saying there was a monthly charge of €1 but i'd much rather pay that each month than the whole €300. And even if you did sign up and wouldn't use the toll bridge again i'm sure you can cancel it. There might be a minimum term say 6/12 but would still work out cheaper for you.


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## tvcabinet (18 May 2009)

Smashbox said:


> The signs are there. It was in the papers, on the radio, on the news. I'm not driving long either, and I certainly don't take the road much, but I know of it.
> 
> You really should have checked it out before you travelled. How long did you think you had to pay the toll? You have to be realistic here.


 
I knew of it but didn't know you had to pay before 8pm the following day. I thought they would at least send a letter to someone saying you owe €5.10, as I said before I haven't gone that way before so how the hell would I know.

Didn't see the sign.



AlbacoreA said:


> What machine?


 
Apparently (found out since of course) that if you have gone across the toll you can pay in some shops.


Didn't see it!



JoeBallantin said:


> Obviously the machine wouldn't accept 5.10.. as the charge was 8.10 at that stage. I'm sure the machine would have accepted the 8.10. How do these machines work anyway, I've never seen one.. you have to put in your reg I suppose.


 
Why do you say it is obvious that the machine won't accept €5.10? A laser machine will allow you to put what ever you want into it so will a credit card machine so why not their machines.Correct about registration number of the vehicle.



JoeBallantin said:


> The one issue with signs is that sometimes trucks block the view of the left hand side of the road.. however there is at least one overhead sign (going Northwards at least), and the word 'Toll' is printed on the road surface too.


 
This is also true of the ones with barriers, my problem is I didn't see the sign with the 8pm deadline if I had I would have paid it.



JoeBallantin said:


> If you insist upon doing it your way then these problems are the result. You could have rang the phone number and tried to pay, or asked about the machine. Instead you did nothing


 
Are you saying that we should pay unfair charges just because someone tells you to pay them. You say I did nothing I tried to pay.



Vinnie_cork said:


> have you paid the €41?
> 
> The next level is a €156 fine.... so beware..... dont just ignor the €41 fine and say sura i dont be up there in the city..... tolls... what tolls....
> 
> BTW.... if you have every listened to talk radio would would have at some point heard people giving out about M50 Tolls and Fines


 
I have not paid anything because they won't allow me to pay, my next step is to send a cheque for €5.10. I don't ignore fines I believe this is an unjust fine. I don't listen to the radio or even watch tv



Stephenkelly said:


> how you didn't know there electronic tolls on the M50 is beond me anyway


 
The same thing applies here as when I was on the road going up to the North, I didn't see the sign and you didn't see me write this.



> I knew it existed, of course, but didn't know that you had to pay it before 8 the following night nor did I know even where to pay it.


 


NovaFlare77 said:


> A few questions and points:
> 
> Your objection to paying the €3 "late payment" fine - In fairness to them, there are signs saying before the toll bridge saying there is a toll and signs afterwards saying what you have to do to pay. The signage could be alot better, but there is signage there. Even if you couldn't see how much was owed, a bell should have gone off that you should follow up on it.
> 
> ...


 
This goes to the main question I asked which nobody seems to have grasped yet, I want to know if a private company has the right to fine people or not?



McCrack said:


> It amuses me sometimes reading or hearing this kind of thing off people and then when people point out the stupidity of it all and how a bit of common sense is needed they get defensive and stroppy.
> 
> OP you may have heard of 'ignorance of the law does not excuse' and it applies in this instance I'm afraid.
> 
> The reality is you have no argument or grounds to challenge this payment notice. You can choose to continue ignoring it until you are up in front of a District Court Judge and sure you can protest there but to be honest the court really won't be on your side.


 
Defensive and stroppy

Since this is my first time ever to cross that toll and would be my first time before a judge for this type of thing and since I did try to pay the toll then I would suspect a judge would have real reservations about fining or jailing me. Anyway if e/flow lost they would have lots of other people doing the same thing everyday. I'm just going to pay my €5.10 and see how far it goes.



AlbacoreA said:


> All you'll achieve by waiting to pay it is to increase the fine. Everyone else manages to pay it.


 
Correct because they know about it before hand and I would have too if I had known about the methods and deadlines.


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## dereko1969 (18 May 2009)

I'm sorry but there are lots of signs on both sides of the road explicitly stating that you have until 8pm the following day to pay. You would have to be virtually blind not to see them.
You don't read the papers or listen to the news or radio, however you do spend time on the internet, do you ever visit news sites? Did you think of visiting any of the sites that provide payment options for using the M50?
Did you know that you would have to pay a toll when you got onto the M1? If you had no cash or credit cards on you to pay there would you have stated I didn't know? I didn't see the signs?
Presumably in relation to your question regarding fines by private companies would it not be similar to private companies clamping cars in private estates?


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## niceoneted (18 May 2009)

"Since this is my first time ever to cross that toll and would be my first time before a judge for this type of thing and since I did try to pay the toll then I would suspect a judge would have real reservations about fining or jailing me. Anyway if e/flow lost they would have lots of other people doing the same thing everyday. I'm just going to pay my €5.10 and see how far it goes."
If you drive you take responsibility for everything related to driving. If you were on a road that you never drove on before and the speed limit was 60 Km/Hr and you drove at 80 Km/Hr and got caught would you dispute it. You should pay the fine and then dispute it if you still feel you need to. And just so you know a toll road is a road where you have to pay some form of fee for use. You had the responsibility to ensure you knew when and where you had to pay this.


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## tvcabinet (18 May 2009)

samanthajane said:


> If you phone them up explain the situation and be nice to them, then they will only request the original toll amount from you......on the condition that you sign up to get the easypass from them.
> 
> My lovely ( somewhat dozy mother ) had my car while i was away in England, and for some reason only knowm to her she thought it was now free to go through the toll bridge ( another one that didn't see the signs!!! ) So when i got back home i had a letter telling me i owed a total of €47.50 for not paying the orginal fee plus fines.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you Samanthajane (what a nice name).

I have no intention of signing up for easypass and there is *no way* I will pay this €3 charge let alone the €41.50. I called the number given and spoke to a woman about the whole issue and she was very understanding (and all that) but insisted that I had to pay the €3, I was all nice and sweetness back to her and told her that I would not pay the €3 because I did not know about methods of payment or deadlines or any such thing.
I thought they would send me a letter and then I'd pay it.

I suppose some (small minded) people would say I'm being petty about €3 but to me it is the principle of the thing.

Samanthajane wrote the fines were written off by an operator on the phone, this gives me great hope because they are not happy to chase people for this type of thing. Not for 1 vehicle crossing the toll for the very first time and not paying on time.


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## niceoneted (18 May 2009)

If they have to write to everyone for the basic fine that would defeat the purpose as it would be too costly.


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## dereko1969 (18 May 2009)

The Roads Act 2007 amends the 1993 Roads Act to include definitions of tolls and payment methods, it provides for increased payments (fines) that can be set out in bye-laws etc.

Search here [broken link removed]


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## tvcabinet (18 May 2009)

dereko1969 said:


> I'm sorry but there are lots of signs on both sides of the road explicitly stating that you have until 8pm the following day to pay. You would have to be virtually blind not to see them.
> You don't read the papers or listen to the news or radio, however you do spend time on the internet, do you ever visit news sites? Did you think of visiting any of the sites that provide payment options for using the M50?
> Did you know that you would have to pay a toll when you got onto the M1? If you had no cash or credit cards on you to pay there would you have stated I didn't know? I didn't see the signs?
> Presumably in relation to your question regarding fines by private companies would it not be similar to private companies clamping cars in private estates?


 
I don't visit news sites, didn't see the signs and am a very slow reader. I had plenty of cash on me thank you. I think regarding the clamping of vehicles in private estates well they usually have very obvious signs that you can see as you walk by. On the motorway you can't stop to read.



niceoneted said:


> "Since this is my first time ever to cross that toll and would be my first time before a judge for this type of thing and since I did try to pay the toll then I would suspect a judge would have real reservations about fining or jailing me. Anyway if e/flow lost they would have lots of other people doing the same thing everyday. I'm just going to pay my €5.10 and see how far it goes."
> If you drive you take responsibility for everything related to driving. If you were on a road that you never drove on before and the speed limit was 60 Km/Hr and you drove at 80 Km/Hr and got caught would you dispute it. You should pay the fine and then dispute it if you still feel you need to.


 
I do take responsibility for everything I do.


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## tvcabinet (18 May 2009)

dereko1969 said:


> The Roads Act 2007 amends the 1993 Roads Act to include definitions of tolls and payment methods, it provides for increased payments (fines) that can be set out in bye-laws etc.
> 
> Search here [broken link removed]


 
Thank you dereko1969 I did try to look through the website before but came up with nothing. I'm not computer literate.


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## McCrack (18 May 2009)

Yes the company that operates the toll has the backing of law to issue late payment notices and if these are ignored they have the right to summonsed the defaulter to court. Off the top of my head I don't know the name of these but I remember them being in the form of Statutory Instruments.

If you call the company they will be be able to quote you them.

Now I respectfully say that you yourself seem unable to grasp or accept despite everything said here that you are at fault completely and not knowing or being oblivious to the toll and its payment is not an excuse of any kind. 

There is really nothing more I or anybody else can say to you.


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## tvcabinet (18 May 2009)

McCrack said:


> Yes the company that operates the toll has the backing of law to issue late payment notices and if these are ignored they have the right to summonsed the defaulter to court. Off the top of my head I don't know the name of these but I remember them being in the form of Statutory Instruments.
> 
> If you call the company they will be be able to quote you them.
> 
> ...


 
I did not ignore any letters


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