# Got My PTSB Offer!



## Wardy7 (29 Jul 2015)

Hi All,

New member here!

I just got home and my offer letter is here!

Turns out, we overpaid by €12,254.61

Compensation offer of €1,897.37

Don't shoot me but I am extremely disappointed with the compo offer. All those years of hardship and struggle.  I think they're having a laugh!

All thoughts welcome!

Sorry lads, forgot to mention, but that compo figure is inclusive of a payment of €400 per customer, to obtain independent advice. So in actual fact, my figure for compensation is €1497.37.


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## katnia (29 Jul 2015)

Hi, sorry to hear you got such a low offer. It might be an idea to give a brief bit of background like when you broke out of fixed rate and what rate you are now on and size of mortgage may help. Hard to make any judgement call without these details but the compo offer is a joke. How did they arrive at this figure?


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## Lauren 5 (29 Jul 2015)

Hi I was wondering what rate you where on and what did they put you on now, I would give Padraig kissane a call, and when did you break out your fixed rate


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## joe351980 (29 Jul 2015)

Does it say how they worked out the compensation figure? Did the check your current account history and look at all the things you missed out on, holidays, weddings, kids birthdays, etc. etc. and decide 1,897 is enough. It's laughable. Does it say who worked out the levels of compensation, was it an independent, or is it just a random figure like how they came to 3.25%. I would think there has to be some sort of impartial judgement on what compensation is offered.


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## Wardy7 (29 Jul 2015)

Hi Katnia,

No idea where they got it from!

We took out the fixed rate in April 2008, on a €380,000 mortgage. Not a 100% when we broke out but think it was roughly a year....at no charge!

Last week, we were reduced from 4.5% to 3.3% and still owe €341k!


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## random2011 (29 Jul 2015)

Wardy7 said:


> Hi Katnia,
> 
> No idea where they got it from!
> 
> ...


Disgraceful that CB are allowing this to happen. 3.3% when you clearly have a mortgage taken out when trackers were approx 1%. Tracker margins were never 3.3% to begin with. Farcical


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## Wardy7 (29 Jul 2015)

Hi guys, I had fixed for 2 years. 

The letter is actually a 13 page doc. It's basically a whole load of jargon, with 3 important points.

1. Offer to return to tracker rate of 3.3%
2. Redress - Giving the overpayment figure (says you can have a copy of the calculations, which I've just requested!)
3. Compensation figure - which includes €400 to pay for independent advice

I'm in the process of emailing Padraic Kissane!


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## Hopefully (29 Jul 2015)

Seriously could they not have provided the overpayment calculation with the letter without having to request it ( time wssting again).
I hope everyone will request this information from PTSB and make sure they know how they got the overpayment figure.


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## rohzar (29 Jul 2015)

Wardy7 said:


> Hi guys, I had fixed for 2 years.
> 
> The letter is actually a 13 page doc. It's basically a whole load of jargon, with 3 important points.
> 
> ...



Sorry Wardy7, Do you get the overpayment in full to your bank or does it go off mortgage? I am a bit confused with the whole lot as have not received my letter yet. Thanks


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## Wardy7 (29 Jul 2015)

rohzar said:


> Hi,
> 
> That amount of compensation is disgraceful! The amount you overpaid- will you get that back or does it go off your mortgage?
> 
> Thanks!



I'll get that money back. It only goes off your mortgage if you're in arrears.

I've been trying to reply to you for ages but kept getting an error message!

Sorry......new to this!


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## oakie2015 (29 Jul 2015)

Is everyone going to get independent advice from a solicitor, I am new to this forum too, is Padraig Kissane a solicitor? I wonder if it would be worth organising a public meeting for affected customers so that we can move forward as a united group?


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## taldar (29 Jul 2015)

@Wardy7 
Did you have TRS on that loan that had influence over the refund or does it tell you?  Do they say the compensation figure is a certain percentage of your refund amount?


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## Terrve (29 Jul 2015)

Hi Oakie, I spoke to a solicitor today who told me I should get an accountant to look over the figures and then get a solicitor to look at the contractual part and help me submit a complaint. I was one of the people put on 3.3%, which has been plucked out of the air IMO.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Jul 2015)

Overpayment : €12,254.61

Compensation offer of €1,497.37

Seems to be about 12.2% 

It has to be a percentage of the overpayment - how else could  they estimate it?


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## katnia (29 Jul 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Overpayment : €12,254.61
> 
> Compensation offer of €1,497.37
> 
> ...


Possibly the interest they would have earned on this money had it been on deposit at highest rate possible for the period of overcharging  by Ptsb?


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## random2011 (29 Jul 2015)

Of course the compensation will be higher if you are due to get a 1% tracker margin versus a 3.3%


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Jul 2015)

hi wardy

Any chance you could email the letter to me? 

Brendan at this website is my email address 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Jul 2015)

random2011 said:


> Of course the compensation will be higher if you are due to get a 1% tracker margin versus a 3.3%



I think you are mixing up the refund with the compensation.

The refund is the actual amount overcharged. That is their legal obligation. 

The compensation is on top of the refund. 

Brendan


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## random2011 (29 Jul 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I think you are mixing up the refund with the compensation.
> 
> The refund is the actual amount overcharged. That is their legal obligation.
> 
> ...


Yes but if you are saying that it is 12.2% I am assuming you mean 12.2% of the over-payments. You would have over-paid more if all along you should have been on a 1% tracker versus a 3.3% tracker.


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## Andy836 (29 Jul 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Overpayment : €12,254.61
> 
> Compensation offer of €1,497.37
> 
> ...



An alternative to applying a flat % across the board, they could band it:
Those overcharged a little (up to threshold A) get small compensation redress,
Those who overcharged slightly more (up to Threshold B) might get compensation at a higher rate for the amount between Threshold A & Threshold B
Then you'd have Threshold C & Threshold D 
etc

Easy to argue those who only overpaid a small amount weren't materially affected so their comp claim would be limited, however those with sizable overpayments would have a better comp argument as the overpayment could be material (i.e. a new car, or an extension etc).


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## PadKiss (29 Jul 2015)

Hi all I have seen two of the proposal letters and the 'Compensation' reflects the earlier posts which I dont believe it addresses the situation nor is it intended to. It appears to be loosely based on a figure of 10%. I am certain that it in no way addresses the level of stress this has brought to households. The term compensation means "Something, typically money, awarded to someone in recognition of loss, suffering, or injury" and all 3 and more can apply in each case. There is a redress board to access the fairness or not of the proposed amount and I have to assume that this is what it is at this point a proposed amount. Appeals can be made to its value and that is exactly what the Redress Board is there for. I note on the letters I have reviewed that the Compensation is described as 
"To pay each impacted customer an amount of compensation in recognition of the failures by permanent tsb" but there must be discussion on the impact it has had on the customers and an amount reflective of this needs to be factored. I am away for the next couple of days to gather my thoughts but rest assured to all those who have contacted me that we are presently formulating a response to in some way make it applicable across all customers. I will on Tuesday contact Ptsb with a view to meeting with them to address the live issue of impact that now exists and is not addressed to date
Padraic 
PS
Many thanks for all the words of support it is appreciated and motivating


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## Fail go (29 Jul 2015)

Wardy7 said:


> Hi Katnia,
> 
> No idea where they got it from!
> 
> ...


Hi I only coped I am one of the affected when I saw my interest rate went from 4.5% to 0.85% yesterday I went too my bank manager this morning and he told me to wait for my letter iv no idea what is going to be offered


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## PadKiss (29 Jul 2015)

Sorry meant to say the letter is 19 pages which is a concern for customers as the detail is extensive


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## Wardy7 (29 Jul 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> hi wardy
> 
> Any chance you could email the letter to me?
> 
> ...


Hi Brendan, I can send it to you in the morning when I get to work?

Still quite perplexed about my 3.3 percentage rate. I've a friend in work with very similar circumstances to me and we were in cahoots coming off the fixed rate. He has dropped to 1.15 I think!


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## Bronte (29 Jul 2015)

PadKiss said:


> Sorry meant to say the letter is 19 pages which is a concern for customers as the detail is extensive



19 pages and it doesn't have the calculations  Any chance of a copy of one of the letters.


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## S2K (29 Jul 2015)

Hmmm, from quick review of their compensation calculation it looks like they have assumed your tracker rate should be 3.25% above ECB and compared that versus what you actually were charged. The interesting thing is back in 2009 the ECB rate + 3.25% was above the SVR rate and thus they are probably assuming you owe them 2k or thereabouts in interest for that year.  Was your loan a 30 year mortgage? If so, I get roughly to their calculation figures based on that capital repayment schedule.

If that is the case the compensation is 6-7% compounded on the overpaid amounts.


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## Lauren 5 (29 Jul 2015)

Has anybody else received their letters yet from PTSB, I taught the investigation had to be completed first,


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## George 07 (30 Jul 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I think you are mixing up the refund with the compensation.
> 
> The refund is the actual amount overcharged. That is their legal obligation.
> 
> ...


Hi Brendan do you know if the ptsb customers who went from a tracker to a fixed rate then broke out with no fee from ptsb but that didn't have it in their original contract anything about tracker will they have a case ??
As ptsb willing never explained to them what they would loose by coming of their tracker day one ??
Thanks
Cheers


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Jul 2015)

Folks

Let's keep this thread to the actual mechanics of the calculations and the compensation.

To discuss the appropriateness of the level of compensation, go to this thread: 

* Why are people complaining about the amount of the compensation?*

*Any further post in this thread containing a comment about the fairness of the compensation will be deleted. *
So don't write a long, well thought out post, and then put in a comment saying "it's a disgrace" - the whole post will be deleted. 

Brendan


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## rohzar (30 Jul 2015)

Wardy7 said:


> I'll get that money back. It only goes off your mortgage if you're in arrears.
> 
> I've been trying to reply to you for ages but kept getting an error message!
> 
> Sorry......new to this!



Thanks for that!
New to this too, great to get some information from others in the same boat. No letter in todays post! Very hard not knowing


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## matan (30 Jul 2015)

Katnia, bit confused, are you saying you got €36K refund, and also €17k off your mortgage????? or is it €17k off your mortgage and €19K refund?


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## matan (30 Jul 2015)

Rohzar, I spoke to PTSB yesterday, letters are being sent out over a two week period, so could be another week or so before we hear.  She said letters only started being posted on Tuesday, they are working their way through them.


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## katnia (30 Jul 2015)

matan said:


> Katnia, bit confused, are you saying you got €36K refund, and also €17k off your mortgage????? or is it €17k off your mortgage and €19K refund?


36k refund and on top of that the mortgage balance has been reduced by 17k.


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## matan (30 Jul 2015)

Are you happy with that Katnia?  I'm actually angered here to see how much you have been overpaying the last few years, we have been overpaying five years so cannot wait to get letter.


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## L John (30 Jul 2015)

The two examples to date show the massive disparity between 1.1 and 3.25 margins. 

No wonder ptsb are trying to get away with the 3.25 where rate wasn't specified. Otherwise this issue would cost them 10s of millions more


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## Lauren 5 (30 Jul 2015)

If you don't mind me asking how much where you over paying by, I ask because I dropped from 4.5 to 1.15 aswell  for 5 years so just wondering how they worked it out


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## taldar (30 Jul 2015)

@katnia 
Did they reduce your mortgage balance by 17k when they changed your interest rate last week or do you need to sign for that.


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## katnia (30 Jul 2015)

taldar said:


> @katnia
> Did they reduce your mortgage balance by 17k when they changed your interest rate last week or do you need to sign for that.


You have to send the docs back for that, mortgage balance online is still the old balance.


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## Kelmcc (30 Jul 2015)

@katnia did you have a rate specified on your letter of offer?


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## katnia (30 Jul 2015)

Kelmcc said:


> @katnia did you have a rate specified on your letter of offer?


Yes, ecb + 1.1%.


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## Wardy7 (30 Jul 2015)

Brendan, as the letters clearly state that you can accept the offer and still appeal, should we go ahead and accept or should we wait?


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## rohzar (30 Jul 2015)

oakie2015 said:


> Is everyone going to get independent advice from a solicitor, I am new to this forum too, is Padraig Kissane a solicitor? I wonder if it would be worth organising a public meeting for affected customers so that we can move forward as a united group?



Good idea, I would definitely be interested in that.


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## rohzar (30 Jul 2015)

matan said:


> Rohzar, I spoke to PTSB yesterday, letters are being sent out over a two week period, so could be another week or so before we hear.  She said letters only started being posted on Tuesday, they are working their way through them.



Thanks Matan


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## GiganticLamb (30 Jul 2015)

katnia said:


> Got offer today. 325k mortgage taken out in 2007.fixed until Aug 2009,  broke out to variable rate in Jan 2009. New rate 1.15% from 4.5%
> Refund = 36k
> Compo = 5.5k
> Also,17k has been taken off mortgage balance.



Hey Katnia,

A quick question if you dont mind.

Can you see the 17k deduction on your open24 account mortage account as gone already?

Thanks and congrats..


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## katnia (30 Jul 2015)

GiganticLamb said:


> Hey Katnia,
> 
> A quick question if you dont mind.
> 
> ...


No, deduction not there yet. Thanks


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## Kiffagirl (30 Jul 2015)

Katnia

Can I ask a personal question, where you in arrears, is that why the balance was reduced?

Could anyone who has gotten their letter maybe do the calculations in Brendan's spreadsheet on refund and see if they amounts are similar, at least we than have an idea if they are calculating them correct


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## katnia (30 Jul 2015)

Kiffagirl said:


> Katnia
> 
> Can I ask a personal question, where you in arrears, is that why the balance was reduced?
> 
> Could anyone who has gotten their letter maybe do the calculations in Brendan's spreadsheet on refund and see if they amounts are similar, at least we than have an idea if they are calculating them correct


Hi, thankfully no arrears and no Missed payments.


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## Kiffagirl (30 Jul 2015)

Can someone explain how katnias mortgage balance is reduced?


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## taldar (30 Jul 2015)

Example - Katnia was paying 5% when she should have been paying 2%. Monthly payment was €1500 with 1000 for interest & 500 capital reduction.

With the correct rate now applied this has been corrected as it should have been 500 interest, 1000 capital.  This is a rough example but is where the reduction in capital comes from.


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## Kiffagirl (30 Jul 2015)

Taldar based on this example how much of a refund and how much of a balance adjustment would an individual get... Sorry for blond question just trying to figure it out


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## taldar (30 Jul 2015)

Depends on the details of your mortgage. Wait for the letter. I am waiting too!


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## Wardy7 (30 Jul 2015)

Kiffagirl, the biggest factor seems to be the date that you would have been due to come off the fixed rate.  That determines what rate you should have been on and in turn how big your refund may be.

Eg. I had a 380k mortgage and was due to come off the fixed rate in April 2010......at that time they reckon that their tracker rate was 3.3% so that's what they have me on.  I overpaid by €12250.  That's a definite figure as I've got my letter.

Another customer (commented above)
320k mortgage and was due to come off the fixed rate in August 2009.....at that time they reckon the rate was 1.1% and that customer has been put back on that rate now (+ECB, so 1.15%).  They've overpaid by €36000.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Jul 2015)

Wardy7 said:


> Brendan, as the letters clearly state that you can accept the offer and still appeal, should we go ahead and accept or should we wait?



Absolutely. Signing those forms is in no way an acceptance. It's a direction to put you on the tracker rate and confirmation of the account into which the refund is to be paid. 

You can still appeal. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Jul 2015)

Kiffagirl said:


> Can someone explain how katnias mortgage balance is reduced?



* An example of how the overcharge and refund is calculated*


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## dec_hy (30 Jul 2015)

kiffagirl - re why your capital reduces as well as getting a capital reduction is not a blond question at all.   each mortgage repayment is a mixture of interest & capital reduction.  Higher interest rates mean higher payments - all that is pretty obvious. Less obvious is that the higher the interest rate, the slower the rate your capital reduces (even allowing for higher repayment). therefore even when you get a full refund of the overpayments, your capital will reduce.  so people without arrears will get both


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## Kiffagirl (30 Jul 2015)

I am just trying to understand the mortgage balance adjustment, I have the overpayment of interest worked out


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## taldar (30 Jul 2015)

Katnia  1.1 was specified in the contract. Nothing to do with when the fixed rate expired.


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## Wardy7 (30 Jul 2015)

It is Talder.....purely because we didn't all have a rate specified.  Ergo....my rate depended on what the "PTSB current rate" at the time was.

If you're rate was specified then you automatically know but that's not the case for everyone.


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## taldar (31 Jul 2015)

No letter today either - Long wait till Tuesday now!


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