# Private Health Insurance: what difference does it make?



## Knorp

Hi all,

I have been living in Ireland for more than one year and I took health insurance for me and my wife because I was advised to do so. In my country the public health system is far from being perfect but anyway you can stay perfectly without private health insurance. When I came here I realised that all my colleagues had it and it seemed to be something really necessary to have.

However, I would like to know what difference it really makes because I've heard dreadful stories about people going to A&E and having to wait for many hours although they had private health insurance. First of all, I've heard that private hospitals don't have A&E sections: is that true (in my country they do, that's why I'm asking)? Secondly, does it make any difference when you go to A&E if you have private health insurance?

If you have to receive in-patient treatment, are there generally speaking good chances to get a private room? I'm entitled to that type of accomodation but if realistically what I'm going to get is a semi-private room maybe I should move to a cheaper health product. Another question that I have is: what's the alternative if you don't have private health insurance? I mean, what do you get (accomodation) if you don't pay private health insurance (I'm paying every month a good amount of PRSI)?

I ask all those questions because I'm paying a quite high premium for a theoretically very good health product but I want to know if it is really worthwhile to pay that amount of money or maybe I would get the same result with a cheaper alternative...

Thank you in advance (I know there are a few questions).


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## terrysgirl33

The reason I have health insurance is not for emergency cases (such as you have described), but more for non urgent cases.  I have heard of too many stories of people waiting months for a non urgent (or even urgent) scans or tests, only to find they have very advanced cancer, or some other problem that needed imediate treatment.  I'm not willing to take a chance on that happening to my family.


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## Knorp

terrysgirl33 said:


> The reason I have health insurance is not for emergency cases (such as you have described), but more for non urgent cases. I have heard of too many stories of people waiting months for a non urgent (or even urgent) scans or tests, only to find they have very advanced cancer, or some other problem that needed imediate treatment. I'm not willing to take a chance on that happening to my family.


 
You are right in that and, of course, I completely agree and that is my reasoning as well. But only a part of it. What I would like to know is if someone could tell me if it is worthwhile to pay for one of the "high cost" health products (private room, accomodation on private hospital, etc.) or it is fair enough to have a less expensive one. I know it hugely depends on each one's circumstances, but I would like to get some advice on that. I have heard lately different stories that have made me think that maybe I'm wasting money (part of it I mean, not all). I mean, for example, now I'm entitled to private room on public hospitals but if people here tell me that you have an 80% chances of not getting a private room (it's just an example), then it would probably make more sense to go for a cheaper alternative given that you are most likely to get semi-private anyway.

Thanks in advance.


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## Welfarite

On principle, I do not have private health insurance. i did have occasion to have to attend a doctor to arrange for a ultrasound scan. Rather than wait months, I paid it to be done privately (€50) and got it done two weeks later. When you add up the cost of paying for the dubious benefits of private health cover over a number of years, you could find that actually paying on the nose for treatment is cheaper IMHO


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## Thrifty1

I agree that for emergency cases i dont think health insurance is much use. I was on VHI Option B plan and had 2 non emergency surgeries. I could have gone to a private hospital but i opted for the public as with the surgeons schedule i would get it done quicker there. All in all the surgeries cost over €6,000 all covered i only had to pay some consultants fees.

I was entitled to a semi private bed but ended up in a public ward due to shortages of beds but i didnt mind, getting the operations done quickly was more important.

I cancelled my insurance about a year ago bu am going to start again as i do feel it is worth it should anything happen i can get treated quicker.
I would opt for a basic package as opossed to a full private room in private hospital.
Like Welafrite said you can paid for certain private treatments like scans that wont cost the earth but in the event of you needing more specialist treatment, surgery the cost could run into thousands.


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## ClubMan

Thrifty1 said:


> Like Welafrite said you can paid for certain private treatments like scans that wont cost the earth


And you will most likely get tax relief at your marginal rate.


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## euroDilbert

Knorp said:


> First of all, I've heard that private hospitals don't have A&E sections=


  It's true in the case of major injuries e.g. road accidents. However, a number of hospitals in Dublin (and Galway, I think) now have private A&E sections. Thes will deal with more minor items e.g. broken limbs, chest pains etc.


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## Knorp

Hi,

There are some interesting comments (thank you all for that). However, I don't think anyone has yet made any comment in relation to accomodation availability. Generally speaking, are you likely to get a private room or would you in reality normally get only semi-private accomodation? Is the situation different on public and private hospitals?

Thanks for your answers.


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## ClubMan

Well, in general, public accommodation is more prevalent than semi-private which is more prevalent than private so obviously your chances are somehwhat determined by supply in the first instance.


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## Knorp

ClubMan said:


> Well, in general, public accommodation is more prevalent than semi-private which is more prevalent than private so obviously your chances are somehwhat determined by supply in the first instance.


Could you expand this a bit more? I ask you this because I have absolutely no idea, as I'm a foreigner and have never been to a hospital here. Let's talk about a public hospital: what percentage of semi-private and private rooms does it have? What are the chances to get each of them?

Thanks a million.


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## scuby

having private health insurance does not guarantee a private room, or a semi-private room. the type of room you get depends on whats available at the time of admission to hospital. The health insurance companies have no control over the type of room you get.


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## Knorp

scuby said:


> having private health insurance does not guarantee a private room, or a semi-private room. the type of room you get depends on whats available at the time of admission to hospital. The health insurance companies have no control over the type of room you get.


Yes, of course, I already knew that (it's obvious). But what I want to know is what chances you have of getting private or semi-private: an estimation based on people's experience. I would like to know if people normally get the accomodation type they are entitled to (private/semi-private). What I'm wondering is if it makes sense to pay extra for something better (in case you need it) or in reality (statistically) it is a waste of money because you would normally get the same as someone paying less. I hope this clarifies what I'm asking. Thanks.


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## Welfarite

Knorp said:


> But what I want to know is what chances you have of getting private or semi-private: an estimation based on people's experience. I would like to know if people normally get the accomodation type they are entitled to (private/semi-private). What I'm wondering is if it makes sense to pay extra for something better (in case you need it) or in reality (statistically) it is a waste of money because you would normally get the same as someone paying less. I hope this clarifies what I'm asking. Thanks.



I don't think there are any statistics on % that actually get a private/semi-private bed that they are insuring themselves for rather than a public bed. And even if posters here tell you their experiences, how will you form a judgement as to whether you should pay health insurance or not. 

As I said in my earlie post, on principal, I do not pat voluntary health insurance in the eternal hope that this state will provide the proper health cover for what I do pay for...involuntarily!


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## fasterkitten

You absolutely do NOT get special treatment in a public A&E if you have private health insurance. That would be uterally disgusting. 

Private hospitals do in fact have A&E departments eg the Beacon hospital and there are clinics like the VHI Swiftcare, however these places nearly always refer patients with abnormal results to public A&Es.

You will get the same quality of care in a public hospital as in a private one, some say better.

Health Insurance is beneficial mainly for reimbursement of medical costs. 

As in your country, you will get top quality care here without private insurance.


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## Murt10

Some time ago I attended my GP who referred me to a consultant in the Mater Hospital. I rang up to make an appointment. I could see him next week if I went privately or sometime next year if I wanted to go publicly.

Seen the consultant a week later and was admitted to the Mater Private for an investigation. In and out in a day as a day patient. Admitted a week later for a small procedure again in the Mater Private. Stayed two days and was discharged. 

Developed an infection within two days of being discharged. Naturally I went back to the Mater Private. Sorry we don't deal with this, you will have to attend A&E in the public part of the Mater. 

Talk abut a culture shock. I had heard that it was grim but it was much worse than I imagined. It was like Forte Appache. Crowds of sick people everywhere. No beds etc

There was a wino lying on a mattress on the floor in te waiting room. He was hooked up to a drip and the nurse was taking his blood pressure. She then came over to me an proceeded to take mine. (Wash her hands before she came near me - you must be joking). 

I eventually was admitted and got a bed. I spent nearly two weeks in a public ward occupying a public bed with an infection that I had picked up as a private patient. 

IMO, the whole system is being run purely for the benefit of the the vested interests. The consultants are on a massive salary from the public purse but they are free to carry out as much private work as they want. Is there any other employee anywhere else in the world with such a massive salary that is permitted to only work part time for their employer.

I'm sure that the masters of the private sector Mssrs O'Leary, Desmond, Goodman, Quinn etc wouldn't tolerate this or a second.


Murt


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## ClubMan

Murt10 said:


> Some time ago I attended my GP who referred me to a consultant in the Mater Hospital. I rang up to make an appointment. I could see him next week if I went privately or sometime next year if I wanted to go publicly.


Shouldn't this be different these days what with the NTPF and all that?


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## Murt10

ClubMan said:


> Shouldn't this be different these days what with the NTPF and all that?



No. As far as I know your time on the waiting list only starts after you have been diagnosed by the consultant. 

Plus, lots of this NTPF work is carried out by the same consultants who should have treated you as a public patient in a public ward. There is no incentive for consultants to do their utmost to clear the number of people on their public waiting lists. If they did somehow manage to do it they would be killing the goose that laid the golden egg. 

In my own case, I wonder how many public patients were not treated/left on waiting lists because I was taking up a public bed with an infection I had picked up in a private hospital.


Murt


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## Bronte

Knorp - I have only 5 examples of the Irish healthcare system.

Myself - went to A & E in Galway for tetanus infection after cutting my foot on glass at a weekend. Waiting 5 hours to be seen, A & E was like a scene from a war zone. Don't remember ever paying anything for this. 

Elderly lady over 70 with no medical card and no private insurance had something on her back that had to be removed. Given appointment 2 weeks later, surgery done in a day. No bill ever received. Mallow hospital.

Lady with first baby in Erinville (spelling) Cork, medical card, so called public patient. 1st class treatment all the way. Midwives in particular brilliant, then 2nd child in the new hospital in Cork, this year, completely different scenario. Midwives too busy etc. Put in room with women who already had given birth as they didn't believe her the baby was coming. It was, she nearly gave birth on the toilet - I kid you not. The next day the ladies all asked her was she the one with the quick birth. 

Lady with 2nd baby in Galway University hospital, with VHI, private consultant, he came from a dinner party, when it was all over - to get his fee, was put in a public ward even though entitled to private as all the privates had been given to emergency scenarios (women who had caesarean/difficult births etc). Ward had a lady from a certain section of Irish society who tend to have lots of babies, this young lady was screaming to be let out of the hospital even though they were telling her she risked her life and the babies. About 20 of her family was in attendance, including kids running around wildly and my sister left the hospital in distress as she could not breastfeed, change or do anything in privacy and had given birth to a huge baby......... In particular I remember the beds were very close together and lots of kids were running in and out. 

Elderly lady from Mayo, went to public hospital, don't know how long this appointment took but told she needed 2 hip replacements, 2 year waiting list. Result: as she had no money her children paid for her to go private and it was done practically immediately. 

Now it's up to you to decide what you want to do. Personally I'd save the private healthcare fees and use it for when you need an operation/test etc particularly if you are young.


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## Mel

Welfarite said:


> On principle, I do not have private health insurance. i did have occasion to have to attend a doctor to arrange for a ultrasound scan. Rather than wait months, I paid it to be done privately (€50) and got it done two weeks later. When you add up the cost of paying for the dubious benefits of private health cover over a number of years, you could find that actually paying on the nose for treatment is cheaper IMHO


 
The problem with this is that, if after your scan or consultant's appointment (paid for privately) you then need treatment, there will be problems getting back onto a public waiting list for that treatment. And even if you had the funds to pay for an operation, as far as I know, surgeons will not permit this, as in the event of something going wrong the bill could run to hundreds of thousands even for a simple procedure.


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## Mel

Knorp said:


> Let's talk about a public hospital: what percentage of semi-private and private rooms does it have? What are the chances to get each of them?
> 
> Thanks a million.


 
Personally, I wouldn't base the decision on whether or not to take out private health insurance on what type of bed you might get. It's far more relevant to if and when you will be diagnosed and treated. For example, a few years ago when I didn't have VHI, my son was referred to a consultant by our gp. As we didn't have insurance, it was to be an estimated 3 years waiting to see the consultant. I rang all the relevant consultants' secretaries in the area, and each of them would see him privately within 2 weeks. Thank god the problem passed and we actually cancelled teh appointment as recommended by our gp, but if you need to see a consultant, there is no comparison.


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## scuby

Welfarite said:


> On principle, I do not have private health insurance. i did have occasion to have to attend a doctor to arrange for a ultrasound scan. Rather than wait months, I paid it to be done privately (€50) and got it done two weeks later. When you add up the cost of paying for the dubious benefits of private health cover over a number of years, you could find that actually paying on the nose for treatment is cheaper IMHO



true, but if you have a chronic condition that you need continous treatment, it's going to add up, and medical treatment cost are rising very fast



Knorp said:


> Yes, of course, I already knew that (it's obvious). But what I want to know is what chances you have of getting private or semi-private: an estimation based on people's experience. I would like to know if people normally get the accomodation type they are entitled to (private/semi-private). What I'm wondering is if it makes sense to pay extra for something better (in case you need it) or in reality (statistically) it is a waste of money because you would normally get the same as someone paying less. I hope this clarifies what I'm asking. Thanks.



you cannot choose your room, it's up to the hospital/bed manager, depending on the number of emergency patients, mrsa patients in isolation etc, it's the luck of the draw... you will probably get treated faster with insurance, as the private consultants seem to treat insurance patients first, as the get pair more... another reason they are against mary harney's idea to hire public only consultants, who would obviousy get the public waiting lists down



Murt10 said:


> Some time ago I attended my GP who referred me to a consultant in the Mater Hospital. I rang up to make an appointment. I could see him next week if I went privately or sometime next year if I wanted to go publicly.
> 
> Murt



as my last point above, the private patients are worth more to the consultants !



Aileen2 said:


> Knorp - I have only 5 examples of the Irish healthcare system.
> 
> Myself - went to A & E in Galway for tetanus infection after cutting my foot on glass at a weekend. Waiting 5 hours to be seen, A & E was like a scene from a war zone. Don't remember ever paying anything for this.
> 
> Elderly lady over 70 with no medical card and no private insurance had something on her back that had to be removed. Given appointment 2 weeks later, surgery done in a day. No bill ever received. Mallow hospital.
> 
> Lady with first baby in Erinville (spelling) Cork, medical card, so called public patient. 1st class treatment all the way. Midwives in particular brilliant, then 2nd child in the new hospital in Cork, this year, completely different scenario. Midwives too busy etc. Put in room with women who already had given birth as they didn't believe her the baby was coming. It was, she nearly gave birth on the toilet - I kid you not. The next day the ladies all asked her was she the one with the quick birth.
> 
> Lady with 2nd baby in Galway University hospital, with VHI, private consultant, he came from a dinner party, when it was all over - to get his fee, was put in a public ward even though entitled to private as all the privates had been given to emergency scenarios (women who had caesarean/difficult births etc). Ward had a lady from a certain section of Irish society who tend to have lots of babies, this young lady was screaming to be let out of the hospital even though they were telling her she risked her life and the babies. About 20 of her family was in attendance, including kids running around wildly and my sister left the hospital in distress as she could not breastfeed, change or do anything in privacy and had given birth to a huge baby......... In particular I remember the beds were very close together and lots of kids were running in and out.
> 
> Elderly lady from Mayo, went to public hospital, don't know how long this appointment took but told she needed 2 hip replacements, 2 year waiting list. Result: as she had no money her children paid for her to go private and it was done practically immediately.
> 
> Now it's up to you to decide what you want to do. Personally I'd save the private healthcare fees and use it for when you need an operation/test etc particularly if you are young.



*could a gp not give the tetanus ?
*elderly lady would have had a medical card, no charges for people over 65 anyway if public patients
*agree about going public for babies, no advantage about going private what so ever, only some people would HAVE to go to the bons being private is so in these days      !! and there is no guarantee that the consultant would even be there anyway, usually it's a midwife that delivers the baby !
*would with the hip should have applie to the national treatment purchase fund, to get it done quicker.
*girl in galway was very luck to have a consultant come in from dinner party ! as per the point above, normally it would have been left up to the midwife..




Mel said:


> Personally, I wouldn't base the decision on whether or not to take out private health insurance on what type of bed you might get. It's far more relevant to if and when you will be diagnosed and treated. For example, a few years ago when I didn't have VHI, my son was referred to a consultant by our gp. As we didn't have insurance, it was to be an estimated 3 years waiting to see the consultant. I rang all the relevant consultants' secretaries in the area, and each of them would see him privately within 2 weeks. Thank god the problem passed and we actually cancelled teh appointment as recommended by our gp, but if you need to see a consultant, there is no comparison.



agree about the bed preference.
 and another way public patients lose out to private as the consultants would rather get the money for treating private patients..


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## Alonso

The website www.hia.ie is pretty good at comparing the 3 Irish health insurance companies namely VHI, Quinn-Healthcare and Vivas. The site compares for example what Plan B (VHI) is the equivalent on Quinn and Vivas. It also tells the price difference which seeing as VHI costs is rising soon is pretty important. Private health insurance is expensive but the way things are going it looks like we'll all pretty much need it.


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## polish_bloke

Hi Knorp,

Have you finally decided on your private health insurance in IRL?

I was looking for answers and found your thread - *it seems to me that nobody really knows what a private insurance is for. *

I pay my BUPA/Quinns for 3 years now and don't really know if it is worth anything. Two cases:

1. My wife gave a birth in Rotunda/Dublin - very good quality of service but I wanted her to go semi public - as result we had to pay 600Euro for something that is free when public, at the end of the day we ended up in a ward anyway.

2. I went to see a GP last week and he has directed me to a consultant - I asked how much would it be and the answer was FREE. Why shall I care about private insurance when public is free. I guess that if I have some serious condition I can see the consultant privately?


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## aman

polish_bloke said:


> Hi Knorp,
> 
> Have you finally decided on your private health insurance in IRL?
> 
> I was looking for answers and found your thread - *it seems to me that nobody really knows what a private insurance is for. *
> 
> I pay my BUPA/Quinns for 3 years now and don't really know if it is worth anything. Two cases:
> 
> 1. My wife gave a birth in Rotunda/Dublin - very good quality of service but I wanted her to go semi public - as result we had to pay 600Euro for something that is free when public, at the end of the day we ended up in a ward anyway.
> 
> 2. I went to see a GP last week and he has directed me to a consultant - I asked how much would it be and the answer was FREE. Why shall I care about private insurance when public is free. I guess that if I have some serious condition I can see the consultant privately?


 

With reference to your post I would not be without private health insurance & have paid it for over 15 years with very few claims I'm glad to say.

With reference to giving birth I'm currently pregnant with my third child. On all of my pregnancies I've gone to a private hospital. Due to medical complications on both my previous pregnancies I've had two cesarean sections & spent up to two weeks in hospital both times. The bills for my two births have been circa €15k each time. All of this was covered by my health insurance.

Re seeing a consultant for yourself. Perhaps you could enquire when you make the appointment the difference in waiting times in seeing the same consultant publicly & privately. My son needed a minor surgical procedure a couple of years ago. The difference in seeing the consultant privately & seeing him publicly was 6 months!! My son had the operation he required privately & was recovered  way before he would have had the initial consultation publicly. Heaven knows how long it would have taken to get the operation done publicly. The cost for a day preceedure for my son was circa €900 & again this was coverd by health insurance.


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## stir crazy

If you develop a psychiatric disorder like depression , schizophrenia or alcoholism you can usually get something like 6 months somewhere like the private St Patricks Hospital (in Dublin) if you are on the VHI, which is like a 5 star hotel and well worth it compared to the miserable conditions elsewhere. I think for psychiatric patients it's certainly the best thing to have VHI. I had to sadly visit a childhood friend (since passed away at a very young age) in both public and private hospitals so I can speak from experience.

Also I went to visit an elderly relative who had a hip broken, up near dollymount (across the road from a rugby pitch) where there is an orthopedic hospital  and there really were 2 standards of ward. The private one was like a 5 star hotel and spotlessly clean and modern, the public one was miserable, old and cramped with far more patients crammed into a ward. So dont let anyone tell you private health insurance doesnt improve your standard of care.


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## ClubMan

polish_bloke said:


> I was looking for answers and found your thread - *it seems to me that nobody really knows what a private insurance is for. *


What is and is not covered is clearly itemised in the policy documents/terms & conditions.


> 1. My wife gave a birth in Rotunda/Dublin - very good quality of service but I wanted her to go semi public - as result we had to pay 600Euro for something that is free when public, at the end of the day we ended up in a ward anyway.


Not everything is covered. In particular the maternity hospital admission "deposit" is not but you can claim _MED1 _tax relief on it as far as I know. Private or semi-private accommodation is subject to availability and there is always a (significant?) chance that going private or semi-private will still leave you in public accommodation.


> 2. I went to see a GP last week and he has directed me to a consultant - I asked how much would it be and the answer was FREE.


Is he sure about that!? I have a referral to a consultant and it certainly will not be free but most or all of the cost should be covered by my employer paid private health insurance.


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## eileen alana

Ireland's health care system is inacessable, inequitable and lacking in capacity in every conceivable area. There was never any proper foundation given to the health system and it developed piecemeal over the years. Today in Ireland, there exists a two tier health system, one for private and one for public patients. Although our public hospital system is funded  by the tax payers, 30% of the beds in public hospitals are taken up by private patients. (This was due to an agreement made to the consultants during the 80's) The main reason people take out private health insurance is because there want to be able to *gain access* to the hospitals when they fall ill, in other words they jump the queue.  Also they want access to a consultant because if you are a public patient you will more than likely wait years and suffer pain and possible die before being admitted and then you are delegated a junior doctor with two + years experience while the consultant goes off to attend to his private patient in the private suites in the *public hospital.*  it is a bizaare situation and hense it is why 10% of the poorest people in this country  subscribe to private health insurance. The cost of private health insurance varies depending on what plan you take out and you may not always get the private room you signed up but at least you will get to see a consultant.  Things may change in the future with recent developments re the new public only contract for consultants but it remains to be seen how this will fare, the lure of better earnings from private practive will always be an incentive to lure consultants away from the public system.


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## ClubMan

I have also used the public health system in several occasions and have never had any major complaints or delays.

On the other hand the consultation that I mentioned earlier is private and when I made the appointment a while ago the earliest date they could give me was April 2008!


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## eileen alana

That is because there is such a shortage of consultants especially in key areas, if you were going as a public patient I dread to think how long you would be waiting.  Personally I strongly feel that people should be treated according to their needs and not their means, the system is very unequitable and we have to listen to far too many horror stories in the news every day.


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## polish_bloke

I have the impression that some must benefit from the mess in the system. Would it be consultants that use the public hospitals for their private patients? Or perhaps these private insurers making a lot of money on people who insure just because it's available. I guess the government takes it's part.

EILEEN: I wouldn't be too scared of the press horror stories - somehow people prefer to read that kind of stuff rather than the good ones (Chicken Soup for the Soul) and journalists are actually pros in finding the worst. Insurers might also sponsor it a bit I guess.


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## ClubMan

polish_bloke said:


> I have the impression that some must benefit from the mess in the system. Would it be consultants that use the public hospitals for their private patients? Or perhaps these private insurers making a lot of money on people who insure just because it's available. I guess the government takes it's part.


Well as I said even if you are insured for private/semi-private accommodation you will only get whatever accommodation is available. If this is public then I presume that he public system bills the insurer whereas if somebody is there on a public basis it is paid by the public for them (other than any nominal amounts billed directly to the public patient). If you go private/semi-private then you may well get to see consultants/specialists and into the system quicker. Once in your actual *medical *treatment should be no different whether you are public or private/semi-private.


> EILEEN: I wouldn't be too scared of the press horror stories - somehow people prefer to read that kind of stuff rather than the good ones (Chicken Soup for the Soul) and journalists are actually pros in finding the worst. Insurers might also sponsor it a bit I guess.


If you are going to suggest such conspiracy theories that seriously undermine some journalists then you might want to back it up with some hard evidence.


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## irishlinks

ClubMan said:


> Is he sure about that!? I have a referral to a consultant and it certainly will not be free but most or all of the cost should be covered by my employer paid private health insurance.


 
Consultant visits and all subsequent treatment or procedures are free in the Public System once you are referrred by your GP.


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## ClubMan

irishlinks said:


> Consultant visits and all subsequent treatment or procedures are free in the Public System once you are referrred by your GP.


I guess my referral is private so? I guess I should just ask my _GP_...


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## Protocol

Public healthcare in Ireland is free, except for A&E charge and about 50-60 per night for hospital stays.


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## michaelm

Protocol said:


> Public healthcare in Ireland is free, except for A&E charge and about 50-60 per night for hospital stays.


Unless you have a Medical Card or PHI you may well face charges; €66 per night in a public hospital up to a maximum of 10 charged nights in any given year.  There are a list of charges [broken link removed].


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## polish_bloke

Clubman: I have no hard evidence, I have my opinion only. F.i. all I see at the front pages here is murders or car accidents or poor Maddie. Look - since they introduced breathalyzing I listen carefuly to radio anouncements re car accidents - I haven't heard any that would mention alcohol involved. Did they solve the problem or drink driving was never a problem? I reckon that journalists/politicians just look for horror stories (drink driving, healthcare) to amuse public due to lack of serious trouble in this (lucky) country. 

I am still not convinced if I shall continue my private healthcare - am I awkward or you don't have strong arguments?


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## ClubMan

polish_bloke said:


> Clubman: I have no hard evidence, I have my opinion only. F.i. all I see at the front pages here is murders or car accidents or poor Maddie. Look - since they introduced breathalyzing I listen carefuly to radio anouncements re car accidents - I haven't heard any that would mention alcohol involved. Did they solve the problem or drink driving was never a problem? I reckon that journalists/politicians just look for horror stories (drink driving, healthcare) to amuse public due to lack of serious trouble in this (lucky) country.
> 
> I am still not convinced if I shall continue my private healthcare - am I awkward or you don't have strong arguments?


Sorry - I really haven't got a clue what you're on about!


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## eileen alana

Polish_Bloke
I don't think you realise the true facts of drink driving on Irish roads. _*Alcohol is the primary cause of 25% of all road collisions and 33% of collisions resulting in fatalities in Ireland.*_ [broken link removed]

Whether you want to carry on paying health insurance is a matter for yourself to decide, what you read here are diverse views from many different people, however,you have to form your own decision based on the facts presented and also from some extra research if needed.


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## csirl

> 1. My wife gave a birth in Rotunda/Dublin - very good quality of service but I wanted her to go semi public - as result we had to pay 600Euro for something that is free when public, at the end of the day we ended up in a ward anyway.


 
The difference between fully private maternity and public maternity is as follows:

Public Maternity:
Usually only 2 scans - done by mid-wife.
Have to queue for aforementioned scans.
Essentially there is no monitoring of the pregnancy unless an obvious problem arises.
If problem, referred to whatever doctor is available rather than specific consultant.
Baby delivered by midwife.

Private Maternity:
Approx. 15 scans
Scans done by consultant, not midwife.
Patient picks their own appointment times/dates.
No queues.
Same high ranking consultant present at all visits.
Regular monitoring (c.15 visits).
Consultant is present for birth.
Proactive monitoring of pregnancy - regular blood tests etc., problems dealt with immediately.

VHI type semi-private is somewhere in between the above (depending on plan etc.).

Experience of my wife is that she would never go public with pregnancy. On last one, a minor problem was discovered on a visit and nipped in the bud very quickly. If she had been a public patient, this problem would not have been spotted and very likely would have been a big problem around the time of the birth.


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## truthseeker

A friend gave birth last week as a public patient, she was treated disgracefully, she discharged herself against advice on Friday as she felt she would be better off at home.

She was in labour for over 20 hours and in delivery suite pushing for 2 hours before emergency cesearian was performed, the surgeon who preformed the section said she could never have delivered naturally because of position of the baby - no scan had been done, 1.5 hours after birth her husband was asked to leave hospital, he began to say that he'd like to stay a while as his wife needed sleep and he wanted to help and was told he would be removed by security if he wanted to cause problems. My friend could not get from bed to baby as the effects of epidural had not worn off and was left there for 4 hours with baby crying and no nurse helped. After no sleep she was told she must breastfeed next morning, was given no help and 4 hours later was still trying to breastfeed the child, the midwife popped her head in a couple of times and said 'youre doing fine'. My friend became distressed and said it wasnt practical to expect her to do this on no sleep for over 48 hours and she needed help. She was ignored.
On thursday the doctors told her they would keep her until Monday because of the cesearian. She insisted on going home stating 'i was left in labour for 20 hours when a scan would have revealed I needed a cesaerian, my husband was threatened with security 1.5 hours after Id given birth. I have had no sleep since last Sunday and am being treated like a bold child when I ask for help. If I were at home my mother and husband would help me - Im leaving'. The said she was free to go but they would prefer her to stay. She left. 

I told this tale to a number of people who have recently given birth. The reaction I got was 'was she a public patient?, ah that explains it, they just leave you there if you go public'. People act like its normal to be treated this way if you are a public patient.

Im horrified - it sounds archaic!!! Have other people experienced similiar?


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## polish_bloke

eileen alana said:


> _*Alcohol is the primary cause of 25% of all road collisions and 33% of collisions resulting in fatalities in Ireland.*_
> 
> 
> 
> It's obvious to me that 75% of all collisions and 67% of collisions resulting in fatalities in IRL are caused by SOBER drivers.  *I insist on prohibiting sober-driving.*
> 
> But seriously, my opinions are my opinions not an enlighted truth, and all I want to achieve here is to combine a bullet-list with cons for private health insurance. What I have now is:
> 
> Why I should have a private health insurance:
> 
> It can secure you a better room in a hospital
> You might get a part of your fees reimbursed (excess)
> You might see the consultant skipping the public queue
> You are very likely to get a better service from the hospital staff
> No thanks:
> 
> GPs are paid either way
> Even if you buy a "no-excess" policy you still have excess - the policy wording should be rather: "no in-patient excess"
> Once referred by your GP the out-patient treatment is free
> In-patient treatment on short stays is E66/day, not more than E660 per year
> In-patient costs on long stays is E120E max per week
> With a full hospital a chance to get a private room when insured is more or less the same as getting it when public ward is full and you are not insured. If the hospital is not full I believe that even the public ward is comfortable.
> Some fees are not covered by the policy - you may have to pay a heavy fees just because you are a private patient.
> You can still claim for reimbursement from the revenue 20 or 41%
> Please add as much as possible, feel free to edit my list - could we compose an exhaustive one together? Thanks.
Click to expand...


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## Nige

csirl said:


> The difference between fully private maternity and public maternity is as follows:
> 
> Public Maternity:
> Usually only 2 scans - done by mid-wife.
> Have to queue for aforementioned scans.
> Essentially there is no monitoring of the pregnancy unless an obvious problem arises.
> If problem, referred to whatever doctor is available rather than specific consultant.
> Baby delivered by midwife.
> 
> Private Maternity:
> Approx. 15 scans
> Scans done by consultant, not midwife.
> Patient picks their own appointment times/dates.
> No queues.
> Same high ranking consultant present at all visits.
> Regular monitoring (c.15 visits).
> Consultant is present for birth.
> Proactive monitoring of pregnancy - regular blood tests etc., problems dealt with immediately.
> 
> VHI type semi-private is somewhere in between the above (depending on plan etc.).
> 
> Experience of my wife is that she would never go public with pregnancy. On last one, a minor problem was discovered on a visit and nipped in the bud very quickly. If she had been a public patient, this problem would not have been spotted and very likely would have been a big problem around the time of the birth.


 
Perhaps this is your experience but the standard of public care you outline is not what is generally available.

Most public patients are monitored regularly, often through the combined care scheme whereby they see their GP six or seven times and their hospital about six times (but more often if there is a problem). Scans are normally carried out by a doctor at the hospital and how many scans are given vary with hospital policy.


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## ice

csirl said:


> The difference between fully private maternity and public maternity is as follows:
> 
> Public Maternity:
> Usually only 2 scans - done by mid-wife.
> Have to queue for aforementioned scans.
> Essentially there is no monitoring of the pregnancy unless an obvious problem arises.
> If problem, referred to whatever doctor is available rather than specific consultant.
> Baby delivered by midwife.
> 
> Private Maternity:
> Approx. 15 scans
> Scans done by consultant, not midwife.
> Patient picks their own appointment times/dates.
> No queues.
> Same high ranking consultant present at all visits.
> Regular monitoring (c.15 visits).
> Consultant is present for birth.
> Proactive monitoring of pregnancy - regular blood tests etc., problems dealt with immediately.
> 
> VHI type semi-private is somewhere in between the above (depending on plan etc.).
> 
> Experience of my wife is that she would never go public with pregnancy. On last one, a minor problem was discovered on a visit and nipped in the bud very quickly. If she had been a public patient, this problem would not have been spotted and very likely would have been a big problem around the time of the birth.


 
I have to disagree with this. I was a public patient for my last pregnancy and used the Domino Scheme [broken link removed]

My pregnancy was monitored through out by the midwives and the care was excellent. I did not have to que for my scan, I picked my own appointments and never had to wait for more than 10 mins. I had all the usual blood tests and my blood pressure was taken at each visit.

I don't think there is a need for 15 scans in pregnancy and its inaccurate to say the consultant will deliver the baby. I have lots of friends whos consultant were not at the birth of their child.

As a public patient you also have the option of share care where you can visit your GP through out your pregnancy in addition to seeing the midwives.


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## csirl

> As a public patient you also have the option of share care where you can visit your GP through out your pregnancy in addition to seeing the midwives.


 


> Most public patients are monitored regularly, often through the combined care scheme whereby they see their GP six or seven times and their hospital about six times (but more often if there is a problem). Scans are normally carried out by a doctor at the hospital and how many scans are given vary with hospital policy.


 
The visits I am referring to in my post are IN ADDITION to the share care where you visit your GP. They are actual visits to the hospital where the consultant personally sees the patient. Fully private still do the visit the GP/midwife several times. 



> its inaccurate to say the consultant will deliver the baby.


 
Not true. Fully private maternity cover provides that the consultant will be present at delivery (assuming unforeseen circumstance, though in these cases, cover will be provided by consultant of similar status). 

As I've said in post - this is for the full maximum level of private treatment - there are various lesser levels of "private" and "semi-private" treatment with less visits etc. depending on what insurance people have and what they are prepared to pay (though with reclaiming tax, the cost is less of an issue).

My wife has had max level of fully private, so has one of my sisters. I'm speaking from personal experience, not second hand knowledge.

Typical regime would be. 

Initial scan @ 6-8 weeks - (Consultant scan)
Inital midwife scan to confirm preg. (hospital scan)
Monthly scans to 6 months - (Consultant scan)
Second midwife scan - the legal abnormality scan. (hospital scan)
7th & 8th months - scan every 2 weeks.(Consultant scan)
9th month - scan every week. (Consultant scan).

There are also minimum of 6 GP or midwife check-ups that everyone is entitled to on national health service.



> I have to disagree with this. I was a public patient for my last pregnancy and used the Domino Scheme [broken link removed]


 
If you have to go public, then NMH is the best bet - care is better than other hospitals.


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## Midsummer

> Im horrified - it sounds archaic!!! Have other people experienced similiar?


 
Yes - very similar post-natal care (after a c-section) and I was a private patient.  Labour & ante-natal care was probably better.  Possibily it was the same hospital as me which I will never enter again !


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## ClubMan

csirl said:


> If you have to go public, then NMH is the best bet - care is better than other hospitals.


You mean _Holles Street_? Care to back that claim up with some supporting evidence?


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## csirl

> You mean _Holles Street_? Care to back that claim up with some supporting evidence?


 
Check the various reports on this website:

[broken link removed]

Irish Childcare Trust

In particular look through the care and stats for in the Consumers Guide to Maternity Services in Ireland section of the site.

NMH level of spontaneous vaginal birth is significantly higher than any of the other Dublin maternity hospitals and the rate of caeserian is significantly lower. There are detailed reports on all maternity hospitals in Ireland including statistics.

[broken link removed]

Above is a link to Irish Health article where NMH set the record for the lowest baby mortality rate which contributed to Dublin being the safest place in the world to give birth.

If you even attended NMH, they will tell you about their reputation for low death rate for both mother and baby and claim to have lowest in world for each.


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## BigCon

Slightly OT:

My doctor said I needed to see a consultant and asked if I wanted to go public or private. I chose private because I have health insurance. 

My question is this: the consultant's fee is 280, do I pay this and claim it back from the health insurance, or do I just give them my number and it's free?


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## michaelm

BigCon said:


> do I pay this and claim it back from the health insurance, or do I just give them my number and it's free?


You'll have to pay it, and I suspect you won't be able to claim it back (bar on a MED1).  Any further visits or procedures should be covered.


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## eileen alana

BigCon said:


> Slightly OT:
> 
> My doctor said I needed to see a consultant and asked if I wanted to go public or private. I chose private because I have health insurance.
> 
> My question is this: the consultant's fee is 280, do I pay this and claim it back from the health insurance, or do I just give them my number and it's free?


 

Some health insurance policies cover you for half your day to day expenses such as doctors and consultant's visits, check with your insurer.


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## PATMAC

We are a couple with no children and no intention of having any, I notice that Quinn Healthcare have recently starting charging 3% for monthly payments(which BUPA didn't) and also they have stopped our 10% discount that we had through Ulster Bank, as they have stopped all group discounts so that's an extra 13% to our annual bill.  Most contributions here refer to maternity and children issues, having read this I am seriously considering cancelling my policy altogether or moving to Viva's anyone any thoughts on the issue?


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## polish_bloke

I've just read "The Undercover Economist" by Tim Harford, The Financial Times author.  http://www.timharford.com/

A part of this book covers private health insurance issues - it's based on "The Market for Lemons" by George Akerlof - 2001 Nobel Prize winner. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Akerlof

Briefly, a reasonable person buys a private health insurance (PHI) only when the probability of poor health is high and the cost of PHI is lower than possible spending on his/her healthcare. As a result we have a PHI company with majority of high-risk clients - Akerlof's "lemons".

"Lemons" claim their expenses and as a consequence premiums must be rised -the company must pay off consultants, hospitals etc and must earn obviously.  

In consequence these few healthy PHI customers that were misled* to buy a PHI are paying for treatment of the "lemons".

*It's my opinion that people are being misleaded to buy PHI - you can see it even here, nobody can actually tell why it is good to have a PHI. All I can find is stories about friend's cousin's neighbours that were treated badly in Public Hospitals.

It's a cruel world out there - if you are a "lemon" buy PHI and let others pay your expenses - they're probably better off and don't mind helping you.


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## DublinTexas

It makes a big difference.

On a Friday I went to my local GP because I felt unwell with high fever. They told me that as I don't have an appointment I will have to wait a very long time.

So I went over to the VHI Swift Clinic and they told me to go to A&E. They charged me 50€ as a GP referal letter (which my GP would also) and I get 50% of that back from Vivas.

Arriving at Beaumont I was told that it would take hours (there were 42 people on trollies that day according to the INU). So I said "no thank you" and went over to the private A&E in the beacon.

I was told that I would be liable for the cost of the A&E as this was a private hospital but that scans needed would be covered by private health insurance directly (despite being out patient), so I ended up paying about 400€ which according to Vivas I will get back.

I was seen within 15 minutes by a doctor and 15 minutes later by a specialist.

3 hours later (after signing one form to allow direct billing for the inpatient procedures) I was in a private room with regular checks by both doctors and nursing staff during the whole stay. Scans were done without me waiting, further test were done in the room.

After I got discharged I received 3 follow up phone calls to see if I was okay.

42 people on trollies vs. 15 minutes.

Thanks God I pay Vivas a lot of money every month because without it I would have had a nightmare.


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## demoivre

DublinTexas said:


> After I got discharged I received 3 follow up phone calls to see if I was okay.
> 
> 42 people on trollies vs. 15 minutes.
> 
> Thanks God I pay Vivas a lot of money every month because without it I would have had a nightmare.



No - without going to a  private hospital you would have had a nightmare .You didn't *have* *to be in Vivas* to go to the Beacon - you could have just paid the private hospital fees yourself.


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