# Loans that we cannot repay



## coleman

*Age:* 35
*Spouse’s age:* 37

*Annual gross income from employment or profession:* 40k gross
*Annual gross income of spouse:* 0

*Type of employment:* private sector

*In general we are:* trying to save but dipping into our savings to  pay bills

We are currently renting a 3 bed house for 800 per month.

*Rough estimate of value of home:* 
*Amount outstanding on your mortgage:* 
*What interest rate are you paying :* 

*Other borrowings:* 
9k overdraft on husbands personal current account
20k loan
8,500 credit card
2,500 credit card
14k tax bill
30k top up


*Do you pay off your full credit card balance each month:* No -  100e is paid every month for the 2500 cc. The other cc is with MBNA and  my husband has been put into the 'hardship' file. They said that they  cannot come up with a repayment plan if there is nothing to pay with.  They advised that his name is more than likely going to be put on the  Credit Bureau. 
*If not, what is the balance on your credit card:* 8,500 plus 2,500  

*Savings :* 2.5k with UB

*Do you have a pension scheme:* I do, however my husband does not

*Do you own any investment or other property:*
1 2-bed apt 
1 3-bed house 

Apt - Worth 225k on Daft however,I believe the more realistic figure is  180k. Mortgage outstanding is 224k. 4.5 with Start Mortgages. Recently  requested to change it to Interest Only, but however am reluctant to go  ahead with it as rent is covering the mortgage. Rental income per month  is 1k. Also thought about moving back into it, but with 3 small kids am  reluctant to do so, plus tenants are very good and have been there for 2  years now. Also there is a maintenance fee of 700 annually.

House - Worth 155k on Daft. This may hold true currently but not 100%  about that. Mortgage outstanding is 161k (this includes the top up of  30k) 2.75 with BOI, but 30k is at 3.5. Rental income is 565 per month.  Pays the mortgage, but not the top up. Again, tenants are quite good and  have been there long term. 


*Ages of children:* Twins - 1.5 yrs and a 4 month old.

*Life insurance:* to cover mortgages 

*What specific question do you have or what issues are of concern to  you? *


Everything. Our figures do not add up. Previous to this, it was fine. My  husband was able to service his loans. He has now missed one 20k  repayment and the 9k overdraft has not been serviced in that last couple  of months at all. The bank isn't knocking on the door, but will in  time. 

When I do the figures up, I'm reaching the conclusion that we cannot pay  the 20k loan or the 9k overdraft. Re the tax bill - my husband is due  retention monies in from jobs that would cover this, but word is that  the 2 clients that owe the monies will not be in a position to pay.

I am just looking for advice please. I am extremely worried about all  this. We have looked at everything, even to the extent of emigrating,  but we do not want to leave Ireland. I really don't know what we are  going to do. I have asked my husband to get the address of the unit  within BOI dealing with the 9k overdraft and 20k loan in order to write a  letter requesting a meeting. My husband has gone to see MABS but didn't  tell them everything. I think he is ashamed. I have made an appt to see  MABS myself where I am going to go through everything with them. Appt  is not for another 4 weeks as they are inundated with  calls/appointments. 
Even if my husband was lucky enough to get a job, there would be  childcare costs for 3 kids so this really isn't viable.

Can someone please help?

Thank you.


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## Purple

MABS is a good start. If the Credit Card companies/ banks know you are dealing with them and trying to come up with a plan it will help.

If you sold everything you would be €125'000 in debt (loans plus negative equity) plus whatever your costs would be for solicitors and estate agents, say another €15'000, so I don't see that as an option.
Your best bet is, through MABS, to pay off the credit card debt first and talk to the banks about restructuring/ extending your mortgages.

Is your husband getting any welfare payments?


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## coleman

Thanks Purple. My husband is not entitled to anything from welfare. Actually sorry, I'm lying - he is entitled to 60% of 12e so about 7 euro's a month. That's it.

He eventually got through to the guy in the Claims Dept in BOI today (he has been trying all week) and the guy there told him to get me to get a personal loan to clear the debts! I don't think the guy actually listened to my husband, when he said, we physically have not got the money. I don't know. The guy there said that if he didn't hear from my husband next week....seemed like an insinuation of something further ahead. At least now I have their address and can send a registered letter in. Looks like I might need to try to get MABS to push forward the appt date if possible. 

Purple - I think MBNA is gone too far down the road now. I believe that it's just too late. He tried to come up to a repayment plan with them but they refused it by saying that we couldn't come up with a plan if there was no money. 

What I am really worried about now is the banks. In particular the 9k and 20k as we just cannot service them and feed ourselves and our kids at the same time.


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## tenchi-fan

is there some sort of consolidation loan you could get for all the loans, credit cards, tax liability, etc. or at least a payment schedule agreed with all your creditors. 

I hate saying it, but other people manage households on 40k - and they spend most of their lives repaying loans too because to buy anything they need to get a loan. If you husband could even get the minimum amount of hours in evening work he could help out with bills. You said his income is "zero" - there are very few people I know who are incapable of earning €100 a week.


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## Purple

Thw banks do not want to take your properties, they won't clear the loans even if they sell them so it's in their interest to come up with to an agreement with you where they get their money back over a longer term. 
Use MABS, make a deal with the banks that reduces your repayments and use the extra cash to pay off your credit cards.


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## coleman

Thank you.

Would you think putting both mortgages on interest only for the moment and using the extra cash from that to pay something off would help to start with?

Also, tenchi-fan - I have thought of him getting some kind of job in the evenings. (Currently, he is still hoping to get work and goes out looking for work and his evenings are spent mostly pricing jobs, in the hope to get a job).We are based in Meath, so chances are, if anything became available, it would be in Dublin so he would have to travel up and down in order to work and pay for the transport costs involved  - depending on the job and the rates, I wonder is it worth it. Also,I have thought that when I am due back to work that I would be able to take his tax credits on. I think they might be worth an extra 70e a week or thereabouts into my pay packet. I was thinking of maybe talking to the bank about this and using that extra money as a payment as well. 
My mortgage in the apt is over 30 years and the one on the house is also over 30 years. 
Thank you again for your advice, and if there is any more it would be much appreciated.


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## brigade

I would switch to interest only on the property investments. This will free up some cash which you need now. You can always switch back to capital payments later if your circumstances change.


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## asdfg

You could ask revenue for a balancing statement for 2009. Did your husband work in 2009. If he did work the tax due is not due to be paid until Oct 10. Make sure you get all the credits incl his for 2009 - you can sort out his tax later when you know what the liability is. 

Now the bad news. You have to make a return to revenue in respect of the properties rented for each year the properties were rented. See Guide from revenue concerning rental properties. You can make substantial reductions i.e. interest paid (not the repayments) assuming the properties are registered with the PRTB 

Assuming you bought the properties with no or reduced stamp duty, did you own the properties for the required period before letting. The period was 5 years (I think)reduced to 2 a few years ago. If you let the properties within this period you owe the full rate of stamp duty, there may be interest and penalties also due. If this is the case you may be able to come to an arrangement with revenue. It may be worth it to talk to an accountant to help you sort this out.


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## coleman

Thanks Mongola - I agree with you! But I think he is actually being naive himself at the moment. He is trying his level best to get a job. He is right now on his way to meet a potential client and I know/think that he should just wipe the slate clean and get a PAYE job and just start concentrating on getting some kind of money in, but he is still living in hope that something will come that will pay a chunk off the debts. I don't think this is going to happen, but he is hoping it will. Maybe he is right and I'm being the cynical one. Time will tell.
ASDFG - Thank you as well for your advice. We lived in the apt for about 5 yrs before renting it. I know I have to sort it out and the sooner the better. I just dread hearing about how much more money we owe...
I was doing up new calcuations last night, based upon, me taking his tax credits, consolidating the loans and extending the term from 7 years to 10 years, and going onto interest only on both mortgages and it seems like we would still be running at a deficit. This is not including the potential hikes in interest rates, reduction of paypacket (more than likely to be included in the new budget), reduction again of child benefit, so if the government tax us any more (and they probably will) our deficit will rise up again - it's a catch 22 situation. I really do not see how we are to get out of this. What it's looking like is that we consolidate everything, try sell everything (if it sells), do the loan for a period more like 15 years. That's if we don't get hit by anything extra. Example - have had no access to our car for the last 2 weeks - needs a new engine - costing 1k. If we have another thing like that happening, I don't know what we are going to do...
Thank you to everyone for your advice and help.


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## coleman

Hi Tenchi Fan - the mortgages are over 30 yrs. Don't think if we extended them to 35 years that it would make that much of a difference.
We need to have a car - 3 kids and visits to the doctor/emergencies, stuff like that. One of our kids is an 'undiagnosed' athsmatic - they cannot diagnose him for sure until he is older,so we really do need the car. It's a diesel so not too expensive to run.
I have come up with an idea that I think might/could possibly work. If husband gets a part time job at home for say 2 days a week (he would have to bring the children with him) and if his parents wouldn't mind, if they could look after the kids for the 2 days he is working and he stays in his parents home with the kids ,I would be back at work full time - that means that there would be no childcare costs plus he is bringing in something, and he could look at the other days to try and secure work in his field. This at least would bring something in, without it being spent on childcare. It means that the kids are away from me though for 2 days and nights, but as I said there would be some money coming in. If that was a viable option, would I still be able to take his tax credits?


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## coleman

Yes - thanks, I think that is what we will do. Only issue is that the tenants are very good on both properties. I think I'll put an ad up on daft anyway and see if we get any phonecalls. I'll worry about the tenants when/if the time comes.

Thank you for your help and again, if anyone has any further advice I'd love to hear it. Thanks.


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## niceoneted

Have you been in touch with revenue in relation to the tax bill. There was a lady from revenue on the radio during the week and she was basically saying that if you have or envisage having issues with paying a tax bill that you should get in touch with them and they will work something out with you. But you must get in touch with them as soon as you know/ suspect there will be an issue.
Is there any chance you could switch the 2.5k cc balance to an interest free card for 6 moths perhaps. May help free up cash short term. 
What are you outgoings like in terms of household bill, mobiles, sky, shopping etc are there any cutbacks that can be made there. 
Do either of you smoke? if so try and give them up.


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## coleman

Hi niceoneted,

I've done up all the outgoings - we have cut back on everything. We don't have SKY. I have a ready to go phone and I think I've put in maybe 50e into it in the last 8 months. I've literally put everything into a spreadsheet and have done for the last few months and it shows that we take approx 700 from the savings account every month to make repayments.

We don't live 'easy come easy go' - we live from paycheck to paycheck. We go home to visit family, maybe a trip to both sets of families approx once every 7 weeks. We don't go out much at all. The most I go out is to do the grocery shopping. It's very disheartening, when you are trying to get there and get things sorted, and it's impossible to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Some good news - husband got a job to start in the next couple of weeks. He will be bringing in 3k, so at least when that comes in it will clear some of the debt. In the meantime he is looking for some part time work.
And I believe we owe revenue 1500 regarding the tax bill. That's a rough figure I've done up. I heard the lady on the radio myself, but you know, when the money situation keeps getting bigger and bigger, sometimes it's just easier to pretend it's not there. Stupid, I know, but I'm getting our asses in gear now to sort this out.

Thanks again for the help/advice.


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## niceoneted

Can I ask what area of construction your husband was in?
Fair play to you, you appear to be keeping a tight hold of everything. I think it is really important. I had a lot of debt before and once you get over it this time you will never let it happen again. 
Best wishes.


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## coleman

I actually didn't realise how much debt there was until a few months ago! 

He did mainly extensions and refurbishments. Also is part of the ESB scheme called 'Halo' - you might have heard about it - it's whereby people get a grant if they spend such an amount in upgrading the efficiency of their homes - I believe the Green Party 'forced' the ESB as such to do this. It's a great idea, the only issue is that because of the recession, people are very slow to spend money on these kinds of things, even though they would work out financially better off in the long run. They are probably right - we can't buy a penny sweet at the minute!

Would you mind me asking how much debt you had niceoneted? And what was your experience of it?

Thanks again.


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## niceoneted

I think at the height of it it was about 24k. This was on top of mortgage. No kids, single and permanent job so that helped. I really cut so many corners. I thought I wouldn't get out it but did. 
Take one debt at a time. I have had pay cuts over last 18 months so am cutting corners again. 
Is there any way family could give you a financial dig out. I know it would be hard to ask but I know my family have all helped each other out successfully when cash flow was tight for some.


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## coleman

Unfortunately, they can't. They are not a situation where they can. I'm hearing different stories from each one of them, and each story gets worse. Also, I really wouldn't like to ask. It's not as if no one hasn't been affected by the economy at present. I'd hate to ask, and then that person get into trouble themselves financially and us owing them money. I have thought about it, but I really don't see it happening. It's our own fault. Should have kept a closer eye and a tighter rein on things. Easy to say that now....I'm trying to do what you say as in 'to take one debt at a time' but it just seems, like neverending, that we can't wade ourselves through this muck. You've got me at a bad moment - sorry! Back to being positive again!

Thank you for the help again. If you have any other ideas of how to cutback please let me know! Thanks


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## csirl

> 2,500 credit card





> 100e is paid every month for the 2500 cc


 


> *Savings :* 2.5k with UB


 
Have you considered using the 2.5k to pay off this credit card? It makes no sense to have savings earning nothing when you are paying high interest rates on a credit card. 

I understand your husband desire to stay in construction work as he knows that line of work. I am guessing that his only prospect of work is bits and pieces here and there on an irregular basis. He should consider doing a PAYE job 2-3 nights a week or at weekends - even basic stuff like stacking shelves in the supermarket - will bring in some regular money. He could still continue to do some construction work, but will have the safety net of at least some regular income. A few hundred euro a month earned this way will make a big difference. And he'll be paying PRSI.


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## gimp

Would your hubby think of going around local areas advertising his construction / handyman services, most people stil have lots of jobs need doing however small. If he got some sort of Garda letter saying of good character etc especially for approaching older people it might help...... dont know if they do that

Other than that best of luck and I hope he knows how lucky he is to have married you ....things will hopefully work out over time if you keep at it and stay positive


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## coleman

Thanks to  you all for your replies.
Techni - Fan - I really don't think taxi-ing is an option. I've looked at it and thought about it. It really wouldn't be worth his while.
Also re childminding - I actually initially looked at putting our kids into a childminders (this is when we were both working) to cut costs and it actually works out more expensive. You pay more for the practical one on one care as such, plus there is extra hidden costs such as supplying the food and childminders are generally further away so cost more in fuel.
He is currently looking for p/t work - he has tried Tescos and McDonalds so far and it doesn't look good. Also when I'm back at work and when/if he got a job at night for example, it would be a case of that he would come back in at say anywhere between 4 and 6am and if he was to get up to look after the kids when I'm gone at 7.30am, I'm scared that he wouldn't be 'aware' enough. It is proving diff to get work even at the w/ends as a lot of people are in our senario and a lot of the jobs are already gone!
Gimp - he has advertised with leaflets and that - not much happening with that. He actually first did that about this time last year and got 1 phonecall from distributing 500 leaftlets...
I finally got a return phonecall from Mabs this morning - I'm going into them on the 27th May so hopefully they can show me a way out of this.

Thank you all again for your advice.


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## coleman

Sorry - in response to csirl - I understand the point you are making re the cc - but the reason I want to keep the money we do have, is in case our little man has another asthma attack. One month alone with him cost 500 euro, so I'd prefer to keep that money as back up in case anything like that happens again.

Also, thank you Lilywhite - no one told me about that before! I'll check into it.

Thank you.


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## D8Lady

"One month alone with him cost 500 euro".

Do you have a [broken link removed]from HSE? It caps your family's drug expenses to €120 per month.

Could you try swapping your 1200 credit card to a 0% rate card? Any money you pay back goes off the balance and not to paying interest.

Does your family qualify for Family Income Supplement. It would be worth a phone call to clarify.


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## coleman

Hi D8Lady,

I do have a DPS card, but the issue that particular month, was having to visit the doctor, 24 hours later he got an awful bad bout and we brought him to Crumlin. The drugs were actually the minimum cost of it all. It was constant trips as he wasn't good at all over about a 10 day period to the GP (who saw him twice and charged us twice at the full rate plus 2 diff types of meds on both occassions) and then the charge from Crumlin who prescibed a total different medication. It actually cost more than 500 euro - I haven't taken into account the fuel costs either. We had to purchase a baby spacer which then led to us being advised by another doc to not bother (when it was too late and we had already bought it and used it) who suggested a different type of inhaler etc, etc. It wasn't actually the drugs that cost the full 500, but doctors and various equipments etc, etc. And he still isn't fully diagnosed, so we could be told something different the next time! Was a very frustrating time!

Am in the process of moving my CC at the moment.

And we apparently do not qualify for the FIS. We have been told that we 'may' qualify for a medical card, but from my research, it doesn't look like we will actually be able to get it.


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## ThriftyMammy

Hi Coleman, sorry to hear that you're going through all of this.  I can relate a bit, we're really overstretched right now and our little one was also just diagnosed with asthma... or sortof diagnosed, like yours, until she's older.  I knew something was very wrong on Monday night and we have about 100 euro to feed four of us until the 28th.  I knew a GP visit would take half of that plus whatever associated costs came with it.  I was freaking out, but ended up talking to the GP who was great and said I could fix her up on pay day.  She also said that while we may not qualify for medical cards, that we should qualify for the GP Visit Card, which had been granted to a lot of her upper middle class patients, who suddenly found themselves in financial duress.  She gave me the form and sure enough they want a report of debt/outgoings as well as just income and it says that cards will be issued to people in financial difficulty.  We're working to consolidate the debt and have worked out payment plans and some of the lenders were happy to supplement my application saying that we needed it.  If you're going to MABS, I'm sure they'd be able to do the same for you.  

Next month will be a new month for us, with all the debt consolidated and a strict budget in place.  We live pretty frugally as is, but this will take a huge weight off.  No more phone calls or letters or general household tension.  The banks and credit cards were really understanding and I think you'll be surprised.  The credit cards knocked off interest rates.  One of our smaller loans was willing to take a settlement for 60% of the loan and write off the rest.  I really wish I hadn't put things off for so long, as people could not have been nicer and more understanding.  

I hope things go well at MABS and start turning around for you! There is hope!! 

Deb


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## coleman

Hello All,

Just thought to fill you in - I went to MABS the week before last and they were only fantastic. They really helped with advice and have offered to negotiate with the bank on our behalf. I went in and broke down during the meeting, but towards the end,I just felt so relieved. There was no pressure regarding time or how long anything took. They also advised me to go into FLAC which I did last week,just in order to obtain 100% clarification.   
So for the moment things seem to be clearing in my head a little - not all, but a little.

I just thought to let you know as you have been so helpful and good with all your advice etc, etc. And also for others to know that the people in MABS are very helpful and try to make you feel better and will help you come to a solution.  

Thanks again.


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## cash king

Glad to see you now feel there is some light ahead.

Not sure the following would work, but no harm to at least consider "outside the box" solutions....you would need some advice from a solicitor / bankruptcy practicioner - but dont see that anyone else has mentioned it...? even if you reject the following outright, at least you would know that you had considered ALL options even unlikely ones

The killer seems to be the fact that on TOP of the mortgages there are: 8K credit card + the 20K loan to clear business o/d and the "private" 9k+.... these seem to be your husband's debts not yours, or did I misunderstand? He guaranteed these, not you? Are these debts legally speaking nothing to do with you? Similarly, the mortgages - am I right in thinking that you have one each, and are NOT both jointly liable for both of them?

I know you have 3 very young kids to bring up and somone has to stay home to avoid paying full whack on childcare.....

BUT there is a growing trend to at least consider a UK bankruptcy proceeding (rather than the Irish one that takes 12 years)....people give up all their assets but get rid of their debts and start over after a year....not 100% sure does one have to physically go to the UK for a year....but I think it IS legally binding back here in Ireland. Makes more sense for some peole than others - eg someone with someone eg a brother to stay with at first, or someone thinking they might inherit something 10 years from now and dont want the bank to take the lot just as they were about to get on their feet again....

If your husband declared bankruptcy, is it possible that he could give his own property in Cork back to the bank, get his ccd, mortgage and bank debts to disappear, leaving you with your own job, your own mortgage on the rented-out Swords apt and your own rent to pay? If this could be done in say a year and he could live with the credit rating problem and IF you could find a way to care for the kids in that one year, would this pay big dividends compared to working the debt off in bits over many years? 

Put it another way - if tomorrow morning he was offered a job in the UK for a year that would pay enough to sort out ALL his debts, would it be worth it for him to go to the UK for part/all of 12 months to get things paid off that quickly?

You say family cant really help with cash money - could they help with time, for help with childcare etc?

Not clear from your email are you yourself liable for all of these debts.

As I say, worth thinking about, even if only to reject it and know you had at least considered everything.

Good luck!


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## coleman

Thanks Cash King and hhsolutions.

Cash King - you are correct in your thinking. I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear. The issue is my husbands debts, guaranteed by him, not me. Yes also you are correct, he has a house and I have an apt. These are separate and were purchased when we were both single people and are not jointly held. And yes, you are also correct, I am not liable for the debt.

We were advised about UK bankruptcy. And yes, we did think about it and discussed it quite a bit. The issue is that my salary would not be able to cover childcare costs for 3 kids and rent/mortgage repayment and food. Neither my family or my in laws live nearby and my job is in Dublin and with family living down the country it's not really an option. 

He is not against going to the UK and try to find work etc, etc, but what he is against, is that he would not see the kids or me on a daily/weekly basis. He would find that very hard. He has a brother living in the UK so this conversation has cropped up quite a bit.

Also hh solutions - there is no money to service anything. It doesn't really matter I don't think if unsecured debt can be reorganised or not as there is nothing to pay out. When I spoke to MABS, it seems the course of action to take is to offer BOI 10 euro a month and MBNA 5 euro a month. My husband will not be paying this - I will. Realistically, one of us has to stay at home with the kids for the next few years and even once they get to school, we are talking about 1 adult (my husband) working part time, as again, childcare costs for the kids again is crazy money to pay out. 

My husband currently would want to be getting a job that pays the following:

2,300 childcare per month
200 transport cost to work

He would want to be getting this miniumum and then more in order to service anything at all - Call me cynical, but I don't see this happening.

So for the moment, what appears to be happening, is that MABS are going to put this offer to the banks, see what they say - I actually cannot afford to pay any more than the 10 euro and 5 euro per month. 

Cash King - you have got me thinking again about UK bankruptcy. I don't know whether to say thank you or not! That's a joke by the way. I honestly don't know what we should do to be honest. Even if the banks agree to the repayment plan, who is to say that later on down the road, that they won't come looking for more. I don't know. Also, what was suggested re my husbands house, was voluntary surrendering it. 

The low point of all this came 2 days ago. My husband got another phonecall from MBNA and he spoke to them. He then came into the kitchen where I was feeding the kids and he was holding the baby. I asked him if he would like a cup of tea and he didn't answer. I couldn't see his face as the baby was in the way so I asked him if he could hear me and again I asked if he would like a cup of tea. He put up his hand and waved it away and I went over to him. He had completely broken down and all he could whisper was to leave the baby with him so that the kids couldn't see him like that. What can a wife do to make her husband feel better about himself in that situation?


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## Robanne

Hi Coleman,  MBNA have been chasing us for 6 months and I can understand exactly how your husband feels....I had to listen to a chap tell me on the phone last week that I should sell our home and pay off the 8k that I owe them....We built a new house last year and held onto the other house because I was pregnant at the time.  Both of us are public servants so have a regular but reduced income...also have five children.  Crystal balls aside none of us knew what was going to happen and I know that there are days that I go from despair to disbelief that at the age of 45 I am looking in my wallet and wondering where I am going to get the dinner for the next week or if I will have enough diesel to get to work.  I have nobody but myself to blame for our debts but I am angry and sad and totally overwhelmed at times.  

I just wanted to contact you to say that as I like you have tried to reduce everything down....was it all a dream do you think?  Actually having money because you went out and worked....While my husband is now in the HSE he was in construction and retrained as a paramedic.  Were we lucky?  the banks threw money at us because we had so called great salaries and jobs....I cant pay MBNA...mortgage bounced this month....no savings all gone....fab house and no food in fridge...but  I will have a glass of wine on Fri and I will laugh with the kids and go for walks and realise that I am not alone and one day we will get through this and things will get better....so keep your faith, love and support each other and we will all get through this


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## cash king

PS - dont think "surrendering the Cork house " will work.  the bank will just sell it and say, "and where is the rest?".  Even if they said they agreed to it they could change their mind and come back?

Not so with bankruptcy.  You have certainty.

In America its different, you can post the keys back, but here you have to come up with the money or go bankrupt.


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## coleman

Thank you Robanne and Cash King.

I have a question - when a person goes belly up, I thought that that would stay on the record for 6 years. I thought bankruptcy was where a business goes belly up and then that stays on the record for 12 years? Could anyone confirm this for me please, as it's my husband personally going belly up as the business loans and personal loans were personally guaranteed by him. I assumed that he would be affected for 6 years, not 12?

Thanks again.


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## cash king

My own understanding of all this is - although people talk about a business being bankrupt - technically it is individuals who go bankrupt

Examinership/receivership/voluntary or involuntary liquidation/administration - these are different names given to somewhat different situations when a business cannot pay the money it owes - no need to go into the technical distinctions here.

"Bankruptcy" is where an individual (who could also be a shop run by a sole trader) cannot pay in full and cannot renegotiate debts/terms.


Bankruptcy involves filling out paperwork and lodging it with a section of the High Court and paying a fee of 650 euro I think. Not sure what happens if you cant come up with this fee (instalments possible or not?). Might be well worth spending a grand or so to get away finally from say 75000+ in debt and negative Equity. There may be some need to take out small newspaper ads etc. there may be affadavits to be sworn lists to draw up and an Official Assignee to deal with, but you SHOULD NOT still be getting calls from MBNA etc.

check out the link on citizens info website (sorry cant post URLS yet, AAM site design wont allow me) - just google "citizens advice", then search for "bankruptcy" on their site

which takes you to a pdf document on courts.ie

which is your starting point but "is not a legal interpretation" - ie PLEASE talk to a solicitor who has dealt with some bankruptcies before FROM START TO FINISH. I am not such a one myself.

Lots of solicitors offer "a free initial consultation" and may offer to do at least some work "pro bono" - ring around , maybe ask the Law society office can they give tips?

*Qs I cant answer that a good solicitor CAN:*
eg - will the Sherriff call round to grab what he can? do we have to be there to tell him the furniture/car/TV belongs to YOU/Landlord and NOT husband?

They cant take tools of trade? does this include eg husbands car?

What about things you might have purchased TOGETHER in better times - TV? Cars? any furniture in the Swords apt? etc?

What about gifts he gave you "shortly BEFORE" going bankrupt - eg do they look at everything he might have bought you in the 2 years before bankruptcy? or what other time limit? what if you saved up a little money cos HE paid the gorceries that week/paid for the holiday? what about eg a wedding ring he bought you? etc

But above ALL - are we correct in assuming that you are NOT liable for any of HIS debts (I am pretty sure, but its worth asking)? Solicitor may want to physically SEE who signed which document rather than take your word for it etc 

In other words - MABS have told you what you might do to pay it all off - now its time to consider the OTHER option, and get some REAL advice on THAT


What I am saying is that you sound like it MIGHT be the right option for your family as a whole if your husband goes bankrupt rather than struggling on and on to pay everything when there is little real hope of getting out of the debt anyway. I dont know if MABS are allowed/trained to advise people whether they are better off declaring bankruptcy or not. MABS are regarded as good for the free service they provide but there may be an assumption/an internal rule they have, NOT to steer people towards the "B" option, no matter what. I dont know.

You sound all the more suitable for it because from the sounds of it his/your health wont last umpteen years of nasty phone call from MBNA etc. No point saying "if we just eat pasta for 8 years we will fix it" if he will have a breakdown in 9 months - and if that happens, what happens to the prospect of free childcare? and he will STILL owe the full whack to the bank. 

Another possibility - (God forbid) he became sick/suicidal/died in next few years - life insurance on mortgage might kick in, but not sure if you as wife would inherit BOTH his assets AND his liabilities? - to get the house in Cork you would then have to pay off the overdraft and credit card? Or would be stuck with them no matter what you wanted? another one to take up with the solicitor. If I am right about this, then thats another strike again in favour of bankruptcy sooner rather than later.

as regards the time limit, actually the PDF file I linked to says "until you are discharged" and gives no formal time limit. I imagine if someone is suspected of salting something away and hiding it, the bankruptcy might drag on forever. I was told in a seminar once it takes 12 years not 6. Sorry cant confirm, ask citizens info bureau? should be free of charge?

Not sure if the bankruptcy exists permanently as a record or not - eg in 25 years, will people know he went bankrupt in the past? again, one for the solicitor.

ONE OTHER POINT - I think you would do well if you face this as a united family with the right attitude. Any secret worries about "what happens if I do this and 3 years from now when kids are at school and I am still not bringing in a cash income, she starts throwing her weight around/giving out to me?" Some couples can have this out in a mature fashion before taking the plunge, but Icant really advise you on that one.

Calmly compare bankruptcy to the alternative; know yourselves and what you can live with, and how much you trust each other; but also do the spreadsheets - where will you be in a year? three years? ten years?

Then choose in a rational manner once you have got the best odds you can.

Good Luck!


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## keytoe

The 1st thing i would do is take your 2500 savings and clear the credit card that is 2500.
1 less bill and more available funds to pay towards your other bills.
it's very hard nowadays to make ends meet.
i understand that you have 3 children under 2(i presume you have twins!) but is there someone who could let you move in with them, a family member or someone who needs to get out of financial stress that may let you rent at their place cheaper until you get back on your feet?
can you downgrade your car/cars? smaller engine means less insurance and tax etc.
i hope some of this helps, if your outgoings are higher than the money you take in, you really would need to look at cutting costs at every possible chance.


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## keytoe

"he is still living in hope that something will come that will pay a chunk off the debts"

this is very worrying!

if my family were in as bad a situation as you are i would move closer to your place of work and try to illiminate transport costs and if my family needed food i would do anything...deliver currys/takeaway food, deliver leaflets, stock shelves in a supermarket late at night while my kids are asleep, work in a petrol station.

pride doesnt come into it, if it does, he's just being selfish.
keep track of where every penny is going and try to reduce. you will only stress yourself out.

i dont remember seeing a credit union loan down on your outgoings? even if you could clear the other credit card and pay back back the credit union weekly, at least you would know where you are at with that loan aswell and not just paying the minimum balance every month.


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## coleman

Thank you Cash King - you have really given me food for thought on this. It's very difficult to see it when you're the one in it, if you know what I mean. It's easier for an outsider to see it objectively I think. Thank you.

Keytoe - he is looking for work. The day I posted the above statement was a while ago. As I said in posts after that particular one, I mentioned where he is currently looking for ANY work. Also, if we move closer to my work, the rent goes up. Yes the commuting costs go down, but it's all relative. It makes no sense to move closer as the costs will just stay the same. I'm actually managing to pay more than the minimum balance on my cc so that's some good news. Not a lot, but a bit more.

Also, your point re moving in with a family member etc, etc. This isn't possible. Family lives about 200/250 km away from my workplace so this isn't an option.

Also, we have 1 car - a family car - a diesel. The insurance is 290 per annum so I don't think we can go any cheaper to be honest.

And yes, the outgoings are higher than what is coming in, hence looking for advice. It's not a case of just cutting costs at this stage - that's all done. It's a case of trying to sort out this financial mess as quickly and as painlessly as possible.


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## cash king

I reckon if you DO seriously consider the bankruptcy route to keep at least 1000 of your 2500 savings to pay the 650 High court fee + other legal costs for decent advice/newspaper ads. Its A risk I know to incur new expenses, but you would immediately see benefits if you kiss good-bye to making payments on his debts.

If you spent the 2500 on the C cd and THEN decided to go for his bankruptcy and couldnt go ahead cos you dont have the 650, that would be a right mess.

I agree that pride is the wrong thing to go for in this scenario if it is as bad as you say - a future for the kids and a healthy upbringing is worth more than any one mans pride - or put it this way, bringing up kids well IS the right thing to be proud about.

Of course, you cant MAKE him declare bankruptcy if he refuses; you can only say what you will and wont spend YOUR money on in future. Co-operation and frank talk about who will wield what power in years to come is needed; that and trust.

One other problem with the "I will get a well paid job and pay childcare with that" scenario, is that even if it happened, you have THREE kids one of whom has a health problem - every time even one of them is sick the creche will send that child home, someone will have to miss work and a days pay will be lost - and the creche will STILL bill you as normal; this is normal and you wont get away from it. A stay at home parent wont have this problem.

When doing up your "A vs B" spreadsheets, make sure you factor in an allowance for this.

One other thing would be  - do you have a joint account or separate bank accounts?  If joint, might be an idea to set up a new bank account in your name alone and have your wages paid into that? Shouldnt cost anything.  then move it to where you have to?  

Might help when proving to Official Assignee in future what money is yours and NOT your husbands.  Wont hurt and might help.


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## coleman

I am seriously considering the bankruptcy route now to be honest. Thank God that we do have that 2500 put away! I don't know what we would do otherwise!

And we have already been part of a creche and you are spot on in what you say about that. The amount of times I had to leave work to pick him up and bring him to the doctor and pay for that, and then pay the creche for the month, including the time he was out, and more often than not, his twin was taken out too, as she would develop something from him! It was a vicious circle with that! 

And luckily enough we have never had joint accounts. My salary goes straight to my own personal account. Our finances have never mixed and I don't think we have even bought one item of furniture 'together' - it was either me that paid or him.

And pride has gone well by the wayside at this stage.

Thank you again for your help. We are going to discuss our situation tonight.


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## Marietta

Coleman - The very best of luck to you and your family - I would seriously consider Cash King's advise.  I know it is very difficult with 3 small children if you have to make the move to the UK but in the long run it will pay dividents to your family's future, your marriage and your husband's mental health.

 The banks here won't tear a toss one way or another, your debts are only a drop in the ocean to what others owe.  They have only themselves to blame for the mess they got people in to.  If I were in your shoes, I would be gone in a flash.


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## cash king

Well said there but I think Coleman is saying she is considering an Irish bankruptcy as her job is here and nothing lined up in the UK.

If you can ALL go to the UK though more power to you!

As I say you need some (hopefully free) legal advice to make sure there is no pitfall we have not foreseen before making the big decision, or there is something you forgot to mention - eg does he have a big pension PRSA built up or something that cant normally be touched til age 65, that might get lost in a bankruptcy....but it doesnt sound like it.

Main problem would be not so much the loss of the Cork house but that in future it would be very hard to get a mortgage/big loan in future for HIM, it would all be assessed on your own income?

But for the next ten years in the country that is not going to matter anyway, and you need a solution pronto that allows your CURRENT lifestyle to be preserved/bettered. The last thing you need right now is any new debt.

Yes, pride has nothing to do with this - Bankruptcy is NOT the greatest evil in the world, it is a PERFECTLY LEGAL way of dealing with your debts. Remember that *(again, say it three times over slowly when you talk about it - lots of people dont understand it fully first time round)*. It is a tactic that may or may not be the right one in certain circumstances - but your circumstances sound appropriate. Just like a general wondering does he send the tanks in first or the planes in first. It depends on circumstances, there is no absolute rule

Yes, the Big Boys in the big banks etc dont hesitate to use whatever they can to sort out their problems if the law allows it - hence NAMA! Look at the big bust developers who arranged/are now arranging everything "in the wife's name" as bold as brass - so you do the same if it looks like the best thing to do when you have your solicitors advice.

Good luck again, whichever path you take!


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## coleman

Thanks Marietta and Cash King.

We are actually looking at both options - either the UK or Ireland.

I'm in a position in my work where it would be possible to ask for a transfer to the UK office - I don't know if they would agree to it, but it's worth a shot I believe. That would mean that I would have the possiblity of in say a years time applying for a position then back here at home. Means we would still have the regular income also.

I've looked into courts.ie and what I've found (well,what my husband has an issue with is the following):

One is never discharged from the list - ever, even in death - I believe from my research the same applies to the UK law
Then later on in the document,it confuses me, it states that how to be discharged is the following :
'No bankrupt can be discharged unless there are enough funds to pay:
The costs of the Official Assignee
High Court Fees
The costs of the petitioning creditor
The preferential debts of the bankrupt....

Then later on again it states:

'Discharge after 12 years - this is where the bankruptcy has lasted for 12 years and all of the bankrupts property has been fully sold or disposed of. the court must be satisfied that the bankrupt has disclosed any property acquired since his/her bankruptcy and that it would be reasonable and proper to discharge the debtor from bankruptcy'

Are they then stating that one is discharged after 12 yrs of not acquiring anything, not paying the extra costs etc, etc, or does one actually stay on the list anyway forever?

It's a bit of a minefield.I must have read it 10 times now.

He currently is not coming up with anything for me, other than, to talk to the banks again and see if they will hold off for say 3 yrs. It's been getting heated at times so we've both been walking away and coming back every so often. And it's all the harder to talk as we don't want to do it when the kids can hear us. Our little girl has started talking 'properly' now and lately she's been saying and shouting at us 'money money money' and I don't like it. It's not fair on them.

Anyway, he seems to be against us all going to the UK as he says that will jeopardise my career (I'm due to move into an area that I love with excellent career prospects and progression), but I'm telling him, that yes, this move might impede me for a time, but only a short time, hopefully.....

I'm only seeing the UK one as the way to go....he is fighting it.


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## coleman

Sorry to add another post but we have been discussing and thinking of the following:

What if, we managed to pay the tax bill, therefore all that is outstanding are the personal debts. Write to all the creditors, advise them that my husband is not in a position to pay his debts etc, etc. Therefore, would that not mean that yes, they will continue to harrass him/us for the next few years, but would it not mean that it would be for 6 yrs and not the 12? So if he didn't declare himself bankrupt, just tell the banks the money isn't there, goes to court, court looks at his statement of means which in reality is zero - would the personal debts therefore not be wiped out after 6 years? Instead of declaring bankruptcy, incurring that extra cost, when the reality is, that there is no money? And being able to stay in Ireland?

It's just a thought or am I missing something here? Yes, I know that we would get constant phonecalls/letters/visits from the sherrif - but in fairness, what can we do? Surely we would have to put up with these phonecalls/letters etc, etc, in order to have the benefit of being at home and his credit rating affected for 6 yrs instead of being put on a god knows how long will it end register? Is this possible?

ETA - I'm clutching at straws here.


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## coleman

Hi Cash King - would you believe I actually emailed Friel Stafford yesterday morning and I got an immediate response back from them attached to the email being a Letter of Engagement and a questionnaire. They advised me that to avail of their services 'initially' that it would cost €605 incl VAT. But I plan on phoning their advice line tomorrow morning to see what they advise.

The issue that we both have in the 'bankruptcy' route is that he is on a register forever. Also, from my research on this, in particular courts.ie, it states that one when doing certain financial transactions, has to disclose the bankruptcy. This tells me that say for example my husband managed to get a decent job in say 10 years time, they would take his salary. Or say he was looking for a car loan for 5k, he would have to disclose that he was bankrupt in the past - am I being cynical again here, but would you think that a bank would loan him the money? Maybe, but more than likely with a massive interest rate attached to it. 

I don't know to be honest. As I said, the only real issue we have is him permanently on the record for life, possibility of him never being able to obtain credit etc, etc. 

Seems to me that our options are :

MABS Route - paying for the rest of our lives, with possible increases of payments. Possibly me being held liable then for those debts as I would be the one paying it.

UK Bankrupt Route - Done quickly. 6 years credit rating affected, but on the register forever and moving (either him or all of us the UK)

Irish Bankrupt Route - Long painful process. 12 years credit rating affected, and again on the register forever.

Or - tell the banks he has no money. Provide a statement of means. Goes to court. He shows/tells them the facts of how it is. Banks hound for years until the 6 years is up. I don't know if we CAN put up with the calls and letters etc, etc and I'm sure it's going to get worse, but by putting up with it, means that he/we get to stay at home and he is not put on a register for life. We'll have 6 years of hell, but surely I'm thinking that might be easier on us to take than him NEVER being able to get any credit/work again and manage to make some money for himself.

Otherwise than that, it's abscond, but that is not on our list.

There is an awful lot to take in with this. It is an awful hard and difficult decision to make.

Thank you again Cash King for all your help and advice. I really am very grateful.


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## coleman

cash king said:


> PS - dont think "surrendering the Cork house " will work. the bank will just sell it and say, "and where is the rest?". Even if they said they agreed to it they could change their mind and come back?
> 
> Not so with bankruptcy. You have certainty.
> 
> In America its different, you can post the keys back, but here you have to come up with the money or go bankrupt.


 
Sorry Cash King - re your comment above - if we did as I say and contact the institutions and advise them of our situation, would you know, could the bank still after the 6 years are up, come after us for any monies outstanding? In particular, in relation to my husbands property?

Thanks again, and I'm sorry for all the questions, but you seem to have very good knowledge about these kinds of things...

Thanks


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## cash king

Sorry I am not really sure what mean you by "6 years" - I thought you meant that you thought Irish bankruptcy might only last 6 years followed by a lifetime on the "register" - but now I think you mean something else? - do you mean that you think that if he stops paying they have 6 years in which to sue for the money? by all means check with Friel Stafford's helpline.

But basically if he is NOT declared bankrupt, then he is not bankrupt - the money is still due and if the bank wait a while just piling up the interest+penalties I dont think the debt goes away. The only way I can think of to make the debt disappear for once and for all (without actually paying, and without him dying and his life insurance paying off on the house mortgage) is (1)to go bankrupt and get discharged which will take 12 years max in normal circumstances. (yes he is then on "the register") OR (2) to get a "scheme of arrangement" (see below).

Remember - any of your creditors can THEMSELVES take an action to have your husband declared bankrupt (in Ireland) if they think it will scare you into paying up whatever cash you have/they want to "make an example" to other debtors. I have no idea of how likely this is. You cant really assume that this wont happen, although it would mean they had to pay the legal fees?

Would end up the same and save you the 650 if you say "fine, we dont resist your application"?

There isnt any way out of his/your problem without some pain somewhere - SOMETHING has to give. Bankruptcy is not painless. All I am saying is that SOMETIMES it is the least painful thing to do.

Its for you to decide if you can survive years of phone calls and your wages paying off his debts. But dont kid yourselves, decide now if you can hack it or not - eg if you crack after 2 years of trying to pay it off, then those 2 years and the money paid in those 2 years will be wasted? 

If you cant just go on paying the debts without excruciating pain then I would say your best bet is to try to push through some sort of "scheme of arrangement". (this is just the opinion of a well-meaning stranger who has heard your story). The worst that will happen is that it wont work and you will be in bankruptcy after all if you really dont have the money. 

Basically this means ringing the banks/"getting them in a room" and saying that YOU the wife are the only source of money, that HE has no assets other than the Cork house, and you are willing to pay say (33) cents on the euro, via such and such instalments. (if he ends up in a good job after all then that is a bonus) If they refuse then there has to be at least an implied threat of "then I will have to go bankrupt and look after the kids at home and you get zero" .
There may or may not be several different types - eg a "formal" vs "informal" one - you need to ask FS about this. You will know more than I!


If you are very convincing AND they arent out to make an example then they might go for it and you might save 66 cents on the euro and stay out of bankruptcy. this is basically what FS do for a living. Dont count on sympathy from the banks cos they dont have it, its jut a business.

Dont know what happens if they try to "come back " for the rest after all - FS will know how to tie that up and make it stick, I presume.

If even ONE creditor REFUSES to pay ball, then you either secretly pay THAT creditor in full or the whole deal falls apart. I dont think it is like in "examinership" where if the biggest creditor says ok, then the other creditors can be FORCED to take the "cram down" (it might be different in the UK)? But again, this is a question for FS, so ask them, I could be wrong about this!

You can probably do this yourselves without FS but you will be a little less likely to succeed, you will only get to do it once, without any practice beforehand.

Once the banks hear that your husband is "threatening" to go bankrupt/in danger of it they may back off or they may get more aggressive, thinking that there is SOMETHING still to be had and not wanting to be the patsy who accepted 33 cents meekly when SOMEONE got secretly paid in full by threatening to wreck everything. Sorry I cant call it, I dont know how they will take it.

If you threaten bankruptcy, and they say "no deal" but dont themselves try to have him declared bankrupt, you are in a strange limbo standoff indeed, and there is probably a lot of it going around. I dont know what happens then. Again, maybe the free call to FS will help.

If FS are useless on the "free" line, then you havent lost anything anyway.

Call FS first, ask maybe ten Qs including how one goes about such a scheme, is there any legalese tht must be on each email/letter, are there different types of "arrangement", and is ther any pitfall in making it stick legally (under contract law, the Q might be what new consideraton was provided, they were already entitled to all the money anyway in the 1st place etc).

Then you either hire someone like FS (no I dont know what they charge or how they make sure they get paid) or do it yourself and go for the "arrangement", if it works then great; if it doesnt then you are back at bankruptcy or else cheap pasta+phone calls while you pay his debts and hope he gets the chance to make it up to you in future.


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## cash king

PS - one other thing - 

It is important that your husband understands that this is not a case of you and some stranger on the internet trying to trick him into going bankrupt.

It is a Q of understanding the true severity of the situation and playing the remaining cards in your hand as well as possible.

If the house is on fire, its on fire and there is no point hoping the fire will go out by going back to bed.

If MAY be that his bankruptcy is inevitable. If so, best to get through it as painlessly and quickly as possible.  Yes being on "the register" sucks but if it is inevitable then it is inevitable.

If he CANT get a good job quickly...IS IT INEVITABLE?


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## coleman

cash king said:


> Sorry I am not really sure what mean you by "6 years" - I thought you meant that you thought Irish bankruptcy might only last 6 years followed by a lifetime on the "register" - but now I think you mean something else? - do you mean that you think that if he stops paying they have 6 years in which to sue for the money? by all means check with Friel Stafford's helpline.


 
Hi there,

Yes, that's what I meant - that would they have 6 years to chase for the monies. Like, how when you don't pay your credit card bill, the institution will put your name on the ICB and it's held there for 6 years - I just wondered would it be something similiar regarding a property. But I will check with FS tomorrow.

Good point re them taking action against him - but I would have thought that if that was the case - then they would obviously think that he has money squirreled away in a box under the bed or something, which he doesn't! So the judge would straight away see that he has nothing so it wouldn't be a case of that he is choosing not to pay, but a case where he is unable to pay. If they force his hand into bankruptcy, so be it. We will live with that if we have to. But I would have thought that a judge would see his statements of means and deduce that he just can't pay. I'm seeing what you mean though (sorry, maybe I'm a bit slow), therefore if the judge does see that, the judge will declare him to be bankrupt anyway, which means he will go on the register for life anyway, right?

What exactly happens when people actually go to court who can't pay their loans? Are they solely declared bankrupt, and all that comes with that for the rest of their lives and that's that? The only other way out of it is by 'arrangement' which he can't do? If that's the case, he has no choice but to either :

(a) Declare himself bankrupt from either UK/Ireland
(b) Get them to do it for him

This is getting more and more depressing.

Thanks CK again for all the help - as I said I really do appreciate it.


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## coleman

cash king said:


> PS - one other thing -
> 
> It is important that your husband understands that this is not a case of you and some stranger on the internet trying to trick him into going bankrupt.
> 
> It is a Q of understanding the true severity of the situation and playing the remaining cards in your hand as well as possible.
> 
> If the house is on fire, its on fire and there is no point hoping the fire will go out by going back to bed.
> 
> If MAY be that his bankruptcy is inevitable. If so, best to get through it as painlessly and quickly as possible. Yes being on "the register" sucks but if it is inevitable then it is inevitable.
> 
> If he CANT get a good job quickly...IS IT INEVITABLE?


 
Yes CK - I'm really, really afraid that it is starting to look that way. Really does look like the UK is the easiest solution - at least he'd have a bloo*y chance of getting a 5k car loan if he needed it in 10 years time.

Feel absolutely deflated here now.


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## cash king

First things first - dont get completely deflated. you are both alive, both healthy enough to genuinely seek work/go to work and three kids you obviously love and want to bring up as best possible.

Second thing - IF they agree to an "arrangement" that you can handle then the bankruptcy is not inevitable. But it looks like the only way out so it has to be risked? Whether you use FS or not. Basically the same thing that your husband was saying, "need to go and talk to the banks again"...

*...but DONT use the line, "Ah come on lads we have known each other for years, please give me a break" (that will get you nowhere, the response is "sorry the lads from Dublin are watching this one, cant help you") but instead YOU get involved as well and RUTHLESSLY hammer home the line that you are the one paying it off at present, you have not guaranteed anything, the family home is a rental so dont bother threatening to evict you, that there is no way you will/can pay the lot, there is no money to be squeezed out of your extended family, and they get ZIP if he goes bankrupt - they can have (say) half or they can have zero, their choice (and then you hope they blink - but know in advance what is the least "haircut" they can offer that you can live with).* If you feel awkward doing this, just remind yourselves you are in a corner and you are doing this for your childrens' future.  Bottle the feeling and let it out at the appropriate moment.

Third - no one says he can never work again. Become a saver not a spender? Bankruptcy would mean that people will PROBABLY find out he was once bankrupt before getting a loan if they check. He may have to get a "bankroll" together or provide some security of some sort - eg if he DOES invent the next sliced pan and needs a wedge to start a business that you believe in, you COULD get a loan eg by signing a personal guarantee yourself (eg if things recover a bit and equity builds up in the Swords apt over the years?) or if, eg, you were thinking of (say) spending 5K per year of your salary on his debts a la MABS advice - well, if you cut the need to spend the 5K all out with the bankruptcy, then save the 5K as cash and keep everything else to a minimum - in three years you would have say 15K in cash - use THIS instead of borrowing a new loan? And Perhaps a lender might provide a loan if he saw you were putting in your own savings, not just borrowing 100% from them? 

I said previously that for the next while the last thing the two of you need is new debt, and this is what I was trying to say.

If you are just about able to live on just YOUR salary at present, then a UK bankruptcy would let him earn and KEEP his own salary after 12 months without the banks interfering? Keep the lifestyle the same and save the LOT of his new income. There is another wedge on the horizon in a few years.

Remember - banks are much less likely to give out loans anyway for the next few years/longer - even if he avoided bankruptcy, there are going to be much harder Qs asked "what are your outgoings at present?" and the existing debts will still shoot you down anyway.

I RECKON THAT IF YOU COULD LIVE WITHOUT THE NEED FOR NEW DEBT THE STING OF THE BANKRUPTCY WILL BE GONE IN 12 MONTHS IF YOU DO IT IN THE UK - AND HIS CRIPPLING DEBTS WILL ALL BE IN THE PAST. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
As regards debts "disappearing" over time - this is unlikely, but I think I know what you are getting at - 

eg in criminal law in some countries there is a Stature of Limitations - basically some non-serious crimes cant be prosecuted after a certain amount of time.

In Ireland we have a law that people must sue within a limited time of suffering an injury, and there is a time limit after which squatters on a piece of land gain rights to the land.

So IF your husband stops paying and the banks make nasty phone calls but dont DO anything, do the debts disappear? Unlikely to happen? dont know. but ask FS when you phone them.


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## coleman

Ok - I phoned Friel Stafford's helpline. Prior to this we spoke some more. My husband has decided to come up with an 'arrangement' to the bank, this being they get anywhere between 25-50% of his property, but they would have to agree to a writedown of his personal debts (say anywhere between 50-60% - I haven't done the figures up fully yet) and will also have to agree to the rental income on the property servicing all the loans. This is his proposition.

I had the following questions for FS :

Q. House in neg equity - can the institutions issue proceedings against you even if there is no equity in the property?
A. Yes, they can.

Q. If going to declare bankrupty in either the UK or Ireland, realistically, what are the chances of him obtaining credit ever again?
A. Very unlikely in Ireland, but can in the UK after 12 months.Will still be difficult, but better in the UK than Ireland.

Q. If you provided an arrangement whereby the bank get say 25-50% of the property, what is the likelihood of them accepting that, along with a writedown of debts and also agreeing to the rental income servicing the loans?
A. Has been done, but not sure on the part of them agreeing to the rental income servicing the loans. Depends on the person you are dealing with and on the day.

Q. What if the bank can't find you?
A. They have stepped up their searches for people, especially in the last year in Ireland. FS had one gentleman about 18 months ago, who owned 6 properties. He eventually absconded, is living abroad currently and has apparently been home twice on visits. The bank is still looking for him. They have not found him yet.

Q. What is the likelihood of the banks issuing proceedings again you? If you are not present, can you be declared bankrupt?
A. Possible, depends on the person you get and on the day. If you are not present, you can be declared bankrupt.

Q. If declared bankrupt in Ireland, later on if you are in employment, can they take their slice?
A. Yes, they can. But after 12 months in the UK, they can't.

Q. If my husband stops paying the debts and doesn't do anything further, what are the chances of the debts 'disappearing' as such?
A. Unlikely.

FS gave me a good tip actually. They advised that if we were trying to come to an 'arrangement' with the bank - we would be much better off going directly to the branch manager and not through the head office. Never thought of that. My mother in law knows the branch manager so we are going to set up a meeting with him to discuss this idea. We have more or less agreed, that this is it. If this works, fine. If it doesn't we/him are going to the UK.


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## cash king

Good, sounds sensible. Cant see anything wrong with it as long as you watch out if they suddenly ask YOU to sign something at the last minute. If they say "no way", then at least you gave it an honest try, and good to hear that you DO have a decent-ish chance of future credit in the UK if things go absolutely nuclear.

Is only one bank? what about MBNA, any tips for getting them ALL into line? Just do the math and check carefully to see if any haircut works out or not on your spreadsheets - no point committing to lesser payments that are STILL too much. Careful if in return for the haircut, they look for YOU to sign anything, so keep your wits about you.

And this leaves husband free to look after the kids or not, depending on whether work turns up, whether in the UK or not?

I think if you present your case carefully and forcefully and hammer home your strong points rather than JUST asking for mercy, you have a good chance of a good deal.

Basically its more or less the position we saw before you rang FS, but good to know they didnt point out some enormous pitfall we had not seen. As they say and as I said previously, it all depends on the mood people are in on the day etc.

They may well blink!


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## coleman

Let's hope they do Cash King!

In a way I'm a bit relieved. We know what route we are taking now. 

I'm thought about the cc with MBNA but the way I'm looking at it, he is more than likely on the ICB report now already and even if he came to an 'arrangement' with them his name would still show up there, and his credit is wrecked for definite for the next 6 years and I don't think my salary will cover everything at home + his BOI debts AND his 8k cc debt. 

Now to do the figures. I think it's going to be more like 70-80% we need knocked off...

We have a friend coming to see us on Thursday to go over it all - he is an accountant in liquidations etc, etc, and he might have some more advice for us. He is going to put us in touch with a good solicitor as well so hopefully we just might be able to wade ourselves out of this....hopefully...

CK - thank you again for all your help - you really have been very good and have given our problem so much of your time, I can't thank you enough...


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## cash king

Just looking up on something you mentioned....the "6 years" you talk about I think is the 1957 statute of limitations....was a link to it on another thread...looked it over a bit...

basically saying that the right to collect on a mortgage is extinguished if no payments made for 6 years AND they dont sue before the 6 years are up...? at least that is what I think it was saying

Wont really help you when you think it through - so you are right not to bother with it - not unless they REALLY forget about you...which isnt likely....

if you stop paying and they finally sue him 5 years and 11 months later...their right is still not extinguished...once they get judgement etc they can THEN force him to become bankrupt...? would drag the bankruptcy sword of Damocles out for 6+12 = 18 years as far as I can see.....?

Dont know what happens if they cant physically find you to deliver the summons.....


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## Hells_Belle

I'm sorry for butting in here but I have been following this thread with interest. I wondered if you might like another point of view.

You might reconsider Irish bankruptcy for your husband. This would stop the outgoings for all of his debt payments and you would then be able to support your family on your salary. You would incur no childcare costs as he could continue to be resident and care for the children. 

The downside is that the debt will stay with your husband for 12 years and his credit will be rubbish (though it's probably pretty savaged as it is anyway.) But there are two aspects to this: one, credit is what got you into this mess in the first place. Rather than looking at as "my husband won't even be able to get a 5K car loan in five years" it is possible to simply save the 5K over five years and buy outright. 

In other words, I would worry far less about protecting credit you _cannot afford to use anyway. _

Point two, your debts are separate, and you yourself have good credit and a job here. When the economy recovers (and it will) you should be able to sell the property in your name, see a profit, and buy another property to live in with a mortgage in your name if that's a priority for your family. As a married couple you are in a *much more resiliant position* than many other families with fully joint debts.

Eventually your husband will go back to work. Deductions for the bankruptcy will be both reasonable and time limited. Things will ease. In the interim, you will know where you stand, the creditors will stop calling, your monthly outgoings will be manageable, and you will not be faced with financial demands you cannot meet despite your best efforts.

It is worth noting that we call it "declaring bankruptcy." It's simply a public statement of a financial fact. You are in fact already bankrupt - you are, aside from a small and legally allowed amount of savings, insolvent. Putting the paperwork behind that is not the worst outcome in the world, and is a choice with some positive points.

I apologise if I've misunderstood something, it just seemed to me that you were trying to avoid an outcome that maybe, is perhaps not really so bad given your situation. 

Whatever you decide to do, good luck to you!


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## dancarter

Havent posted on here in a long time but have read this thread with some interest. For the records I work for a Bank in an insolvency role; I deal with corporate clients but am familiar with the legislation around personal insolvency/bankruptcy etc. More relevantly I am familiar with the PRACTICALITIES of the bankruptcy process. 

Some points
- I agree with Helle Belle above. At this point in time you should not even be considering borrowing in the future. Debt has caused you all this anguish and stress so you should be looking to put yourself into a position where you dont need to worry about monthly repayments any more. 

- Bankruptcy is an extreme option, it will prevent you borrowing from any Bank in the future but I would imagine your local CU will still deal with you if you have a good record with them and build up a savings record over time. 

- On a practical level if you apply for bankruptcy I would imagine the relief you will feel would be huge. No more calls from your creditors! You will then be dealing with the official assignee of the courts, their role is to deliver the best possible value for all your creditors. If there is no equity in your assets they wont waste much time on it. Over time they will sell the assets and your unsecured creditors can share what is left over if anything. 

- You will be treated with respect by the courts. As outlined this is a legal process and is not a reflection on yourself as a person. 

- **** MBNA. They are an unsecured lender, they charge you 15-20% for the borrowings on the basis of high risk high reward, when they get paid! Let them register their judgment if they wish; not sure if this will damage your credit rating (are you party to debt), if it does you may wish to deal with it. 

- Dont know who advised you about UK bankruptcy, its a better system than we have but it will be very difficult for you to get it through as your 'centre of main interest' is in Ireland. I would find it hard to beleive this is a live option. 

- When you go into bankruptcy in Ireland it will take YEARS to resolve!! Time is your friend in this instance. You will have an opportunity to deal with your issues and at any point if you repay the debts the bankruptcy will be discharged. The official assignee is swamped with work and your case looks to me like it will go to the bottom of the pile as there is little equity to be had! 

If I were in your shoes I would seek to do the following; this may not be fully ethically or morally correct position to take 
- Go to secured lenders and tell them you cannot deal with the issues any more. You are willing to voluntarily sell the property/let them sell the property on the basis that it  is full and final settlement of the debt. Bring a sworn (by your Solr) statement of assets and liabilities with you incl statement of means. This should give them comfort that there is little to be had out of you and they may decide to go down this route and cut their losses without incurring legal fees etc down the line. Tell them you are going into bankruptcy if they dont accept it; they will not want this as the official assignee will have control of the asset and it wil lbe taken out of their hands for years. 

- Go to unsecured lenders and tell them you are going to go bankrupt, offer them a small settlement (out of the 2.5 k ) in full and final settlement, they will not want you to go bankrupt at all becasue they will know they will never get a penny out of you if you do. 

Good luck with your situation, hope it all works out.


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## coleman

Thanks CK, Hells Belle and dancarter,

I have returned to work, since last Friday so hence not being logged on.

Things have taken a different turn. BOI really had no interest in taking any percentage of my husbands house (I didn't really think they would anyway). But what they have agreed, for the moment, is to reduce his mortgage repayments to 500 per month (this includes the 30k top up, and the insurances). The income from the house per month is 565. I asked my husband to ask them about the 'difference'. I was advised by him (my husband) that the bank said that they would just as such let the arrears build up in another separate account, for him to pay back when he can. 
I was waiting to hear about extra charges attached to the arrears, but didn't hear of anything, until a letter came in the door from BOI confirming the new arrangement. In this letter they outline that there will be charges attached to the arrears. Recently though, I have heard on the news that there is talk of the banks being told to stop these charges, but I don't believe anything has of yet been done about them.

Re the bankruptcy idea, the first one is Ireland. This is a no go - we can't afford to go bankrupt anyway! Hells Belle - you are completely correct, we are insolvent. 

Re the other BOI debts - we are basically at a crossroads. I have not got the energy to keep discussing/fighting/debating the financial issue with my husband. He sees black, I see white. I have told him that if I can't reach a compromise with him, then I feel I have no option but to step back from it all, and let him deal with it. I have not got the strength to have the constant same endless discussions with him day in day out. I realise I have gone off on a tangent, re the other BOI debts - he is basically going to 'wait and see', as in speak to BOI to tell them that he has no money, is at home looking after the kids, while I am at work. He phoned them again today and left a message. 

Re the MBNA cc - a letter arrived last week, stating that his account is to be written off and he is also going to be put on the defaulters list along with the ICB list. 

We have agreed that if all comes to all and court is threatened, then we will go to the UK, but I think that he is still going to fight this - how, I don't know, as the outcome is inevitable, but I will help him where I can. I have not made any payments to any of his debts in the last month - he agrees with this. My salary is for the kids, the house etc, etc.

Apologies if I sound short, but I have a little boy crying/shouting at me.

CK - thank you again. You have a point - what if they can't find you??

Again, Hells Belle and dancarter, thank you too.


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## Shuttleworth

coleman said:


> Thanks CK, Hells Belle and dancarter,
> 
> I have returned to work, since last Friday so hence not being logged on.
> 
> Things have taken a different turn. BOI really had no interest in taking any percentage of my husbands house (I didn't really think they would anyway). But what they have agreed, for the moment, is to reduce his mortgage repayments to 500 per month (this includes the 30k top up, and the insurances). The income from the house per month is 565. I asked my husband to ask them about the 'difference'. I was advised by him (my husband) that the bank said that they would just as such let the arrears build up in another separate account, for him to pay back when he can.
> I was waiting to hear about extra charges attached to the arrears, but didn't hear of anything, until a letter came in the door from BOI confirming the new arrangement. In this letter they outline that there will be charges attached to the arrears. Recently though, I have heard on the news that there is talk of the banks being told to stop these charges, but I don't believe anything has of yet been done about them.
> 
> Re the bankruptcy idea, the first one is Ireland. This is a no go - we can't afford to go bankrupt anyway! Hells Belle - you are completely correct, we are insolvent.
> 
> Re the other BOI debts - we are basically at a crossroads. I have not got the energy to keep discussing/fighting/debating the financial issue with my husband. He sees black, I see white. I have told him that if I can't reach a compromise with him, then I feel I have no option but to step back from it all, and let him deal with it. I have not got the strength to have the constant same endless discussions with him day in day out. I realise I have gone off on a tangent, re the other BOI debts - he is basically going to 'wait and see', as in speak to BOI to tell them that he has no money, is at home looking after the kids, while I am at work. He phoned them again today and left a message.
> 
> Re the MBNA cc - a letter arrived last week, stating that his account is to be written off and he is also going to be put on the defaulters list along with the ICB list.
> 
> We have agreed that if all comes to all and court is threatened, then we will go to the UK, but I think that he is still going to fight this - how, I don't know, as the outcome is inevitable, but I will help him where I can. I have not made any payments to any of his debts in the last month - he agrees with this. My salary is for the kids, the house etc, etc.
> 
> Apologies if I sound short, but I have a little boy crying/shouting at me.
> 
> CK - thank you again. You have a point - what if they can't find you??
> 
> Again, Hells Belle and dancarter, thank you too.


 
Coleman I've been reading your posts with interest. Two tips for you:-

1. If you're going to the UK to declare bankruptcy, go as soon as you can, as the EU Regulation that forces member states to recognise cross border bankruptcies does not apply to pending lawsuits. So say that MBNA served you with a summons tomorrow, if you then declare yourself bankrupt in Britain, MBNA and the Irish Courts do not have to recognise that bankruptcy, and it will undoubtedly be registered as a judgment back here in Ireland. So act fast.
2. Do not attend any meeting with financial institutions face to face. There have been a number of incidents recently where people like yourself went in in good faith to banks thinking they were attending settlement talks only to have a Civil Bill thrown at them once they entered the premises.

Do everything in writing and by registered letter. Good luck to you both. S


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## cash king

At the end of the day it is he who is in debt and not you.

You cannot make him do anything, all you can do is not end up paying his debts with your own money. If you agree that your salary is not to be used to pay his debts I suppose that is progress, and you can dare them to make him bankrupt.

Yes he may indeed try to kick to touch, but this is what I meant when I said there was no point dragging it out if there is still no real chance of actually paying anything off. I cant say whether he will get to pay anything off or not, you will just have to judge that for yourselves.

Yes the level of debt MIGHT be going up with arrears etc and penalty charges. Cant know yet if the bank will write these off or not. If the amount of the debt keeps going up and up, how is that better than going bankrupt? I know, he is the one who has to answer that.

Dragging it out for say 3 years more and THEN going bankrupt or being forced to go bankrupt by the bank is just adding 3 more years to the duration of the problem? If the bank say that the balance is increasing but they wont bother suing for it yet they have the option to make him bankrupt at any time. Yes at least this way you save on the 650 + other expenses but he may go into limbo for untold years? The bank dont want to crystallise the loss, on the books everything is still hunky dory and the loan is "performing" - tells you how much faith we should have in the banks' figures but that is a whole other thread.

Interested to hear that MBNA are "writing it off" but I expect they will be back in a flash if they got a notion the money was there - this is where the Statue of Limitations will come in?

If your husband is listed as a defaulter it will probably mean no credit for him anytime soon anyway - not 100% sure about that.

I hope though with the lesser payments to bank and with no payments to MBNA things are more tolerable now?

PS - I wouldnt bank on them not being able to find you, that was only a what if scenario. If you go about your legit day to day life anywhere in the EU without wigs and changed names I reckon a PI can track you down in less than a month if he is put on the case


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## coleman

Thanks Shuttleworth and Cash King - problem is I believe that my husband just cannot seem to see the wood from the trees. I'm afraid of the outcome if we go his route, but no amount of explaining/fighting will move him. As I said, we are completely at a crossroads and I believe I know which is the best way for us to go, but he just cannot see it. I'm starting to think that I'm losing it and that he thinks that I'm trying to control him and that and maybe he is right. I just don't know anymore. I really do not know how much more of this I can take. I'm hitting a brick wall, with every single thing I say.


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## cash king

Alas you are now going into personal areas that have little to do with the facts of finances. Not really a lot anyone on this site can do then except offer good intentions.

Had said in an earlier post that a lot will come down to his attitude and what sort of man he is when faced with the facts, and does he accept taht what is best for the family the best way forwards.  Most men instictively feel awkward and defensive when it is the woman who is bringing home the bacon.  Maybe its earlier days yet. 

But I think that as long as you yourself can keep a clear head, as long as you dont pay for his debts, and as long as he helps look after the kids for as long as he doesnt have a job, then you are doing something right?

If he wants to dare the bank to bankrupt him and until then keep hoping for a lucky break, then it might work out.  Most likely scenario is the bank will put big pressure on him somethime in next couple of years and it will come to a head then.  You wont be any worse off other than the dragging out of the whole thing, and at least he cant blame you for pressuring him, wondering what might have been.

Stay strong and stay sane and keep your own head above water and look after the kids.


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## Marietta

Hi Coleman,

I have been following this thread with interest and I am amazed at your resilence in the face of the challenges you are facing. It is an extremely difficult time for you and your family and especially because your children are so little.

I would worry for your husband, he is very vulnerable, there are many tragedies occuring out there in the wider community. It is a horrendous and stressful thing for an individual to have the face the trauma of having huge bills coming through the door everyday and having no money to pay them with. 

Take a step back and see what is most meaningful in your life, give him space, if need be contact one of the many 'helping agencies' to talk over your problems. Take care and be gentle on yourself.


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## coleman

Thanks CK and Marietta.

Marietta - I am worried about him. There is no doubt about that. Sometimes I look at him and wonder, is he ok? I think it's actually good for him to be at home with the kids, as they are such a handful that it's impossible to think for long periods of time. Also, the kids are great for both of us - we know that we just have to keep going, for their sakes, let alone ours. But as I said, I am very much worried about him. 

You are correct CK - I was getting personal and really personal and finances don't mix. Sometimes, it just gets a bit too much for me and I have to say something to someone somewhere! 

For the moment, for this week anyway, we will see what it brings us. I'm starting to think that he is kind of coming round to the UK idea, but time will tell. And yes, I cannot force his hand in this - I can only try to persuade him to what I believe is the right course of action. The decision is ultimately his. I'm hoping that he will be able to give me a definite answer to what we are doing by the end of this week.

Thank you for your replies.


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## ExBanker

Hi Coleman, 

First of all, I am surprised no one has mentioned the option of offering the properties back to the bank. I would recommend the following steps. 

Advise all lenders that you are not in a position to repay their debts, which I guess they already know. 

Tell them, that you will either offer them possession of the properties for sale or agree with them that you place them on the market with their agreement. The advantage of this for the bank is that they avoid court and associated time and costs. 

Negotiate with them, what their final position is, i.e. we will sell the house and pay you, over 20 years, €10k each (€20k in total). 

In relation to the credit card and personal loans, I would again offer them an unopposed judgement or a settlement figure of 50% of the outstanding debt converted to a 15 year loan. Take this sume to be €20k. 

You now have a 20yr loan of €40k ( or 2 20 year loans). At 5% interest rate, the repayments on the 2 combined loans would be €160 per month. 

This is in effect, bankruptcy, without the legal costs to you. While it is unpallatable to everyone who helped bail out the banks, they are doing deals. 

Regards and best wishes!


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## ExBanker

Just another point, if your husband has a tax bill, you might look into "top slicing relief" it is a payment which averages out your previous and current payment tax rates. It may lead to some rebate.


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## Nige

top slicing relief only applies to individuals who have lost an employment.

what I don't understand about this case, is why you are still renting at €800 per month when you have a rental property that is only taking in €565 a month. If you moved in you'd be €235 better off (and more so if trs was applied to the mortgage interest).


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## coleman

Thank you ExBanker - one of the issues with your idea is that we can't afford the 160 per month. To be honest, I don't know if the banks will accept a writedown - because in reality it would really have to be some serious writedown in order to service the debts.

Nige- the reason we do not live in my husbands property is because it is on the other side of the country. My job is based in Dublin - cannot commute that distance, and I cannot just hand in my notice in the hope of getting another job.


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## ExBanker

coleman said:


> Thank you ExBanker - one of the issues with your idea is that we can't afford the 160 per month. To be honest, I don't know if the banks will accept a writedown - because in reality it would really have to be some serious writedown in order to service the debts.
> 
> Nige- the reason we do not live in my husbands property is because it is on the other side of the country. My job is based in Dublin - cannot commute that distance, and I cannot just hand in my notice in the hope of getting another job.


 
Well, I think, IF you were to get rid of the 2 houses and the personal loans, the single payment of €160 should be managable. Its certainly a lot better than what you face today. I think, there is a chance that a proposal, structured as outlined would be acceptable to all parties given your position. It represents a better outcome for both the banks and you.

It may be worth retaining some of the rental income for the 2 properties for a few months to build a fund to cover contingencies such as insurance PTRB etc. At your weakest, before your husband gets employment again is exactly the time to do a deal. This is the lowest level of expectation the Bank can have. 

I take the point on top-slicing relief, but it depends if husband worked for his company or not.

ExBanker.


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## coleman

Hi ExBanker,

If we were to be able to get rid of the 2 properties, we'd be talking about owing the banks somewhere in the region of 130k in negative equity alone, not including the costs to sell the properties, or the personal debts. Would you honestly think that the banks would agree to €160 per month for that? Even if we 'handed' back the keys to them so that they don't have to go the court route, we would still be in the negative equity that is owed....

ETA - Apologies, I just read again what you said about holding some of the rental income...

Re the 'top slicing' relief - my husband did work for his company. Would this mean that we could possibly be entitled to a rebate?

Thanks for your post...


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## Mrs Vimes

Top slicing relief is applicable where a person pays a higher rate of tax on a redundancy payment than they paid on average over the previous 3 (I think) years.  It would apply where for example a person was earning 30,000 per year and paying tax at about 10% for years and then got a redundancy settlement of 50,000 which was taxed at 42%.  Revenue recalculate the tax paid on the redundancy so that it is not taxed at a higher rate than the average.
I have made up these figures.
Sybil


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## ExBanker

@Coleman, I do think that making a full declaration to the banks about your position, the likely future outcomes (higer interest rates, end of interest only etc.) They might look at a substantial write off on your debts. 

I know this is not popular with many people as taxpayers bailing out the banks, but it is quite possible that the bank would take a write off on part of the €130k residual debt if you are clearing making the maximum payment possible. 

Good luck!


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## fizzelina

ExBanker said:


> @Coleman, I do think that making a full declaration to the banks about your position, the likely future outcomes (higer interest rates, end of interest only etc.) They might look at a substantial write off on your debts.
> 
> I know this is not popular with many people as taxpayers bailing out the banks, but it is quite possible that the bank would take a write off on part of the €130k residual debt if you are clearing making the maximum payment possible.
> 
> Good luck!


 Hi Exbanker, have you any actual experience or knowledge of banks doing this though? It's been suggested before on AAM threads but there is little concrete evidence / anecdotes of people getting it for these large amounts of debt.....So before giving false hope to Coleman and others I am just wondering what your base your opinion on? Do you have a situation where banks did this for an amount that high?


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## ExBanker

The answer is yes. Even if the bank were to get a judgement of €130k, it would be of little no value to them, there is a commercial reality here, that the cost of collecting the money would exceed the money collected. Also, given the fact that interest rates will be rising in the coming 2 years, the amount of the short-fall is likely to increase.


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## coleman

ExBanker - thank you for your posts and your knowledge. However, with my work situation, I don't think that it would be possible for me to do this. With my job, credit checks are done when going into employment. If a tick came up against my name it would not look good and I don't know whether to take the chance or not, but with the situation we are in, I fear, it's best if I leave all well alone when it comes to me. Considering it's my job putting food on the table, I would be reluctant to take a chance. But I am still considering what you are saying.

We had a lady from BOI come to the house a few weeks ago. I basically told her that my husband has no money (my husband was present for the meeting as were the kids). I told her that if they kept his mortgage repayments the same, release his name from the 20k loan (which was initially a business overdraft which they pulled and more or less forced him into a corner, of which I stated that he was under pressure to sign and surely that was against procedures?) that we would make a stab at paying off the 9k overdraft in bits and bobs. I told her that we/I could not come up with a repayment plan for the 9k and also made a point that I was not liable for my husbands debts, and furthermore would not be held liable for them. The other option, I told her, was for us to move to the UK and declare bankruptcy. I mentioned that it would be quite easy for us to do so, as I could apply for a work transfer.
She was a nice lady. I think she came to see if we were telling the truth and didn't have a Picasso on the wall or something. And of course, she saw the kids, which all helps our case.

I explained that my husbands mobile no longer works so I gave her my mobile. The reason besides others that I say she was/is a nice lady is because after I gave her my number, she told me that she would not give that to anyone else. I appreciated that.

She phoned about a week later, to basically say, that the mortgages dept could not understand why my husband would contemplate handing back the keys. As far as they are concerned everything is hunky dorey! I don't know what they are talking about there - his account is in arrears and building up further. Then she said, the same speel again - if we could come up with something etc.

This week my husband spoke to the gent he has been dealing with in the Collections Dept. He stated that he tried to keep the account with him, but it's now out of his hands and is gone to the next level - being the legal team. My husband said to him that we should expect court and the guy in BOI more or less agreed. 

I did put it to the lady who visited us, that what can they do but bring him to court. And that that would cost them money. She said that then if it was court, my husband's debt would rise further, to which I said, that makes no difference at all. If he has nothing, he has nothing. They can't jail him. So it makes not one iota how much he owes. He just cannot pay it. I asked her about 'handing back the keys' as we have come to a stage where we can't take much more. She said that she didn't know the procedure for that, but during the phonecall later, she said that the bank would look more 'favourably' if he sold the house first and then handed back the keys.

I just thought to fill people in on everything. I am waiting for the first initial 'legal' letter to come and then I will send a letter in to all of the depts outlining our same proposal again.

Thank you again to all for your posts.


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## coleman

Hello Isobel-33,

Yes, people here have been very good in offering advice to our situation.

We received the first of many I assume a letter from Fitzpatrick & Co Solicitors yesterday, advising my husband to pay the sum of 7,439.04 within the next 7 days or legal proceedings will be necessary. My husband phoned them and explained the situation and the gentleman advised that proceedings will be in the next 2-3 weeks with Circuit Court in approx a years time. He thanked my husband for being so upfront about the situation.
I have been reading Time's post on Court Procedures and I just have a question, if someone could answer it for me please?
Time advises, from what I understand to not defend the case. Does this mean that my husband should go to the court or is it pointless as he does owe the money? I just thought that judges wanted people to state why they have not been able to pay their debts or am I misreading the media? From reading Time's post, I get the idea that if my husband were to take part in any of the proceedings (just to even say why he cannot pay these debts) that it is pointless as costs accrue further? I'm just afraid that if he cannot say why he cannot pay the debts that the judge will make a judgement that he cannot afford and then we will be back to square one.

I have sent letters in to all the relevant departments to BOI regarding his situation and only solution. I have already told them the solution already, but obviously it has fallen on deaf ears and for some reason they seem to think that he has money when he hasn't.

Thanks again for the advice, knowledge and help.

Coleman


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## coleman

We have now received a civil bill - can anyone please advise?

Thank you.


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## Billo

??


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## coleman

I'm sorry Billo - I do not know what you are asking?

We gave BOI an offer - our only offer. I'm sure I have already advised this board of it, but I don't have the inclination to see where on my posts it is, so I will just reiterate it here. We offered :
In lieu of the €20k personally guaranteed business loan (which my husband was coerced into signing being a previous overdraft facility, and of which the balance is now at €18k) -my husband offered €5k in full and final settlement
In lieu of his €7k and €2k overdraft facility on his personal accounts (of which the balance in total for both is €7,400) I offered to pay a monthly sum towards this, out of my salary.

We received a letter from BOI's solicitors today stating that their client will not accept this and will proceed as previously stated.

What do they want? I know they want their money, but this is absolutely crazy. Do they think that we would go as far as it has got if we had money? I think they are just completely and utterly trying to destroy people. I don't think there is anymore we can do? Are we at the end now? Does this mean that my husband is better off NEVER working again? Is the only option we have in securing some kind of a good life for our kids what Cash King said? Bankruptcy? Is that it, because right now I really cannot see the wood from the trees.


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## cash king

If you have really gone about getting your message out, but they really are ignoring you because they "think the money is really there", then I reckon they think the money is going to be paid by you or your/his extended family if they hang tough and keep squeezing.

Sorry dont know what the best thing to do is but I reckon you SHOULDNT suddenly volunteer to take the debt on yourself - that is what they are counting on, I guess.

I never meant to say he would be better off never working again - but maybe little point doing so until the bankruptcy is discharged....


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## coleman

Hello all - I really have no idea how to say this, but I can only say it straight. We are now in the position where I am at the end. I love my children to the ends of the ends that OF THE ENDS that I can give them. I can give them nothing more, save a woman who says 'give me a kiss'......and this they  do without abandon -  I feel safe that they do this of their own free will and without abondon. NO MATTER what happens feom here on in I know I and my children will survive. I wish to God, and I am far from a church-going lady that what BB's says and ones who agree with him need to seriously wake up and smell the coffee - irregardless of the one that is feeding it to you - nothing stays the same, it never does - NEVER forget that.


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## putsch

coleman said:


> Hello all - I really have no idea how to say this, but I can only say it straight. We are now in the position where I am at the end. I love my children to the ends of the ends that OF THE ENDS that I can give them. I can give them nothing more, save a woman who says 'give me a kiss'......and this they  do without abandon -  I feel safe that they do this of their own free will and without abondon. NO MATTER what happens feom here on in I know I and my children will survive. I wish to God, and I am far from a church-going lady that what BB's says and ones who agree with him need to seriously wake up and smell the coffee - irregardless of the one that is feeding it to you - nothing stays the same, it never does - NEVER forget that.



Your post sounds very worrying. Was it just a low moment or are you in a very serious place? Is there anyone who can help you? Have you tried any charities - St V de P/Samaritians/Local Church? Do let us know how you are.


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## micheller

Coleman, I hope you are ok?
I read your story and followed as you have a young family, and I identified with that. Is there someone you can call to 'unload' your worries at all?
Has something specific happened and if so, perhaps someone here can advise you?


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## coleman

I am sorry if I have caused any concern. Things have been mounting up on me, and I had a few drinks last night and let the anger and self pity get to me. As one can see by the time, I'm not sleeping very well either.
Unfortunately, no, there really isn't anyone that I feel I can talk to. Don't think the likes of SVP etc would be able to help either.
Latest is that tomorrow my other half will be letting the bank know that he is unable to pay his mortgage and to let them know that they can/should go ahead and do what they are going to do.
Looks like the tenants in my property are going to be leaving shortly also, and I have already restructured the mortgage and it looks as though I will need to reduce the rent again, which means another restructure if they allow it. It's getting to the stage that it seems to be pointless continuing on and just handing it back. I don't know. I have sent them letters asking them very simply, 'can they show me a way, based upon my income, how I can ever hope to repay this loan' - and they never answer. 
I have asked them to stop phoning me but to write to me instead - this they have followed, so that's one less burden I suppose. Husband still not entitled to anything on SW so therefore he cannot even retrain as we cannot afford to pay the college fees, and one of us has to mind the kids....it's a big, black hole and I see no way out.
Sorry again for causing concern - it just all got a bit too much for me....


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## micheller

Coleman, if things are so bad, is it possible for you to simply:
- Stop paying the mortgage on the rental and prepare to sell or hand back
- Contact new beginning

I'm sure you have seen in the media, this story, does it give you hope in any way?
[broken link removed]

If something like the above was done with the rental, would your head be over water? SVdeP will always help, you should contact them today, by phone even if you cannot face going in. I hope you feel a little better this morning.


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## in the mire

Coleman. Walk into a branch of your bank and just hand the keys back with a note saying I cant pay for it, Contact new beginning and take it from there and just sit back and relax, The bank does not care if you are looking into a black hole, they just want their money, Do not give in to their pressure, They have more to loose than you at this stage.


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## coleman

Hello Cashier,

No, there has been no resolution yet. We are still waiting for the bank/s to make their move. For some reason they have not. All I summarise from it is that the banks actually do not want the properties - sure, what are they worth?? In the meantime I have now been made redundant. This is the first time in my working life (the guts of 20 years) where I have had no option but to 'sign on' and even still now, they want to know where the money is going to come from. I'd love to know myself. Right now I'm angry and at the same time scared. I have decided if nothing is done by the end of this year, I will physically hand the keys in as I cannot take much more of this, and I need this gone. At this stage, my credit rating is gone now anyway, as is my husbands, we are on the 'dole' - could we possibly sink any further??


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