# Threat to all of our pensions: Ó Cuív says OA Pension cuts cannot be ruled out



## z104 (14 May 2010)

People seem to think that any proposed threat to pensioners pension will only affect pensioners. People need to realise that it will be your pension when you reach retirement age. You are paying into your pension and the government want to reduce it.


This is your pension. Not just some old ladies pension.
That's assuming you live to an age where you will be entitled to receive it.

I really hope everybody gets behind the pensioners when they show us how to protest again.


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## z107 (14 May 2010)

At this stage I'm just working on the assumption that if I get to retirement age, there will be no state pension.


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## Purple (14 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> I really hope everybody gets behind the pensioners when they show us how to protest again.


 I disagreed with them last time (when well off greedy people on over €1350 a week wanted to keep their free medical care that they could well afford to pay for). I'm not sure about it this time but why should they be exempt from cuts?


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## Caveat (14 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> At this stage I'm just working on the assumption that if I get to retirement age, there will be no state pension.


 


Purple said:


> I disagreed with them last time (when well off greedy people on over €1350 a week wanted to keep their free medical care that they could well afford to pay for). I'm not sure about it this time but why should they be exempt from cuts?


 
+1 on both.


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## DerKaiser (14 May 2010)

Caveat said:


> +1 on both.


 
+ 2.

It is an inevitability that anyone under the age of 50 now will get a significantly lower OAP entitlement than is payable at the moment.

Whatever about standing up for a belief that current OAPs need the money, opposing cuts in the belief that we can simply make the issue go away and not be reconsidered for another 30 years is an exercise in futility

Unlike us workers who will inevitably end up paying more tax, the retired have the time and the brass neck to mount a significant whinge campaign.

The whinging of old codgers with a pile of money in the bank should not be entertained this time.


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## Moral Ethos (14 May 2010)

The government should be standing up to the grey army and cut the state pension. Why should they be immune from social welfare cuts? Free electricity? Free TV licence?  They can suffer like the rest of us.


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## Deiseblue (14 May 2010)

Moral Ethos said:


> The government should be standing up to the grey army and cut the state pension. Why should they be immune from social welfare cuts? Free electricity? Free TV licence?  They can suffer like the rest of us.




Absoutely , after all what have they ever done for the country ?

Let them eke out their lives in misery and fear !

Yes I agree means testing is probably the best way to proceed but let's not forget the many thousands whose only income is derived from the OAP.


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## Moral Ethos (14 May 2010)

There are very wealthy pensioners that have a free medical card, electricity allowance, free telephone etc. They should loose these.


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## ajapale (14 May 2010)

Niallers,

Can you be specific about what aspects of  pensions you see as potentially under attack?

aj


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## jhegarty (14 May 2010)

Op,

Where would you make the cuts ?


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## Purple (14 May 2010)

ajapale said:


> Niallers,
> 
> Can you be specific about what aspects of  pensions you see as potentially under attack?
> 
> aj



I think the OP is talking about [broken link removed]


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## z107 (14 May 2010)

> Where would you make the cuts ?


I'd be using a guillotine to make appropriate cuts.


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## Moral Ethos (14 May 2010)

How much could be saved?


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## ajapale (14 May 2010)

Purple said:


> I think the OP is talking about [broken link removed]



Thanks Purple, Ive edited the title to reflect this.

aj


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## annet (14 May 2010)

*Pensions debate*

With the demographics of population ageing in Ireland, we are facing the problem where there will be fewer persons in employment to pay for the pensions of those who have retired. And no amount of street protestations by the grey brigade is going to change this sad fact.

I think this goes beyond cuts in pensions to a debate on how can Ireland meet the income needs of retirement. We've seen one strand of this with people being encouraged to provide supplementary cover to the state pension. That in itself can be seen on various levels. One is that the state pension is inadequate so the government is encouraging persons to supplement the public pension with private cover. Alternatively, rather than pensions and income being seen as the responsibility of the state, it is actually the individuals responsibility to make their own provisions for security in retirement. 

Other European countries have already had this debate so atypically we are paying catch up in trying to figure out how we are going to pay for pensions in forthcoming years.

I thought it was interesting to hear Gerard Scully from Age Action saying that older persons had already taken several cuts over the past years? What cuts did older persons take in their pensions? The situation is that the Government didnt have the bottle to face down the street protests around the withdrawal of the GMS. So now we've got the perverse situation where older persons can earn up to 700 euros per week and still have full entitlement to the GMS whereas on the other level you can have low income families who may have ongoing medical needs but yet wouldnt qualify for the GMS/doctors only visit card because they exceed the income threshold and they still wouldnt be given the card on discretionary entitlement. 

We are in a situation where every PAYE worker, self employed person and social welfare recipient with the exception of older persons suffered cuts in income in the last budget. And before persons rant... no its not acceptable but we didnt have a choice. 

I'd be asking where's the solidarity from the grey hair brigade?


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## z104 (14 May 2010)

Means test ,means test , means test

Do not just blanket cut people who have to live on 230 quid a week. These people have paid tax and worked their whole Life. 

I think they should get free tv license, free heating and yes a medical card so they do not have to fret about having to pay to see a doctor. They've got past the finish line of working up to retirement age . Give them a break.

Lads and lassies,
You think you are talking about old people that you do not know, you are actually talking about yourselves. You will be getting this pension when you retire.

You will be the grey hair brigade. There is no difference between you or them apart from the fact that you will be them in a few years time.

Would you like to see these older people without a pension scrimping just to feed themselves and heat the house.(Mabe you would hand them out tins of cat food)


What happens if pensions are removed. What happens people who do not have occupational pensions or did not have the foresight to put away money for their retirement.


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## z104 (14 May 2010)

jhegarty said:


> Op,
> 
> Where would you make the cuts ?


 
I would make them from taxation from working people between the ages of 18 to 65. increase the tax bands. 

12.5 % corpo tax. How much would 1% on this bring in.

Spare me the companies would run. You don't know for a fact that this will happen.


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## annet (14 May 2010)

Persons have paid RSI and have seen cuts in the period of entitlement to jobseekers benefit and that's in addition to the amounts of all other benefits and allowances....

I dont agree that persons should qualify automatically for the household package.  In stringent times services need to be targeted at those most in need.  I think its economic madness to suggest that persons should have the right to these secondary benefits irrespective of their actual means.   The costs on the exchequer of operating this scheme was seriously underestimated when it was first implementated.  I remember reading an ESRI study in year one or two after it was implemented and what stuck out for me was that the Government underestimated the costs of implementation.  It staggered belief the government estimated that it would only cost €19m in year one when in actual fact the cost was €52m.


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## Purple (15 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> Lads and lassies,
> You think you are talking about old people that you do not know, you are actually talking about yourselves. You will be getting this pension when you retire.
> 
> You will be the grey hair brigade. There is no difference between you or them apart from the fact that you will be them in a few years time.


 People should make their own provisions for old age. If you are under 45 you have plenty of time. If you are under 55 you still have enough time. We need to realise that the state is not our mammy and we should look after ourselves where possible.





Niallers said:


> What happens if pensions are removed. What happens people who do not have occupational pensions or did not have the foresight to put away money for their retirement.


 Who's talking about removing it?


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## johnd (15 May 2010)

Purple said:


> People should make their own provisions for old age. If you are under 45 you have plenty of time. If you are under 55 you still have enough time. We need to realise that the state is not our mammy and we should look after ourselves where possible.
> 
> Ok Purple, tell me as someone of 45 who earns 36k how i would provide for my old age and have an income of say 15K when I get to 65?  I have a small mortgage and three children, I still in college. Just how much would I need to invest each month so i don't have to depend on a state pension?


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## DerKaiser (15 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> 12.5 % corpo tax. How much would 1% on this bring in.


Increasing the rate of corporation tax would be the final nail in this country's coffin


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## DerKaiser (15 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> Lads and lassies,
> You will be getting this pension when you retire.



The whole point is that we won't.

Based on the demographics it is unsustainable.


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## Purple (15 May 2010)

johnd said:


> Ok Purple, tell me as someone of 45 who earns 36k how i would provide for my old age and have an income of say 15K when I get to 65?  I have a small mortgage and three children, I still in college. Just how much would I need to invest each month so i don't have to depend on a state pension?



You, I presume, are paying social insurance. That in itself is providing for your future, or at least it would be if we weren't overpaying our current pensioners (based on the fact or our changing demographics we should be saving a massive amount in order to pay for our future pension liabilities).

If your income doesn't allow you to provide any pension (even €100 a week would be a great top up on the state pension) then you may have to work past 65.


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## Moral Ethos (15 May 2010)

It will be like America next. Old duffers in their 80's clearing tables in restaurants.


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## johnd (15 May 2010)

Purple said:


> You, I presume, are paying social insurance. That in itself is providing for your future, or at least it would be if we weren't overpaying our current pensioners (based on the fact or our changing demographics we should be saving a massive amount in order to pay for our future pension liabilities).
> 
> If your income doesn't allow you to provide any pension (even €100 a week would be a great top up on the state pension) then you may have to work past 65.



Yes of course I am paying social insurance. I was replying to your point that people should provide their own pensions, where possible, without having to depend on the state pension. I also paying AVC towards my small private pension because I am only 10 years in my present job and the pension provided is too small. Apart from that what are people expected to do?


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## z104 (15 May 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> Increasing the rate of corporation tax would be the final nail in this country's coffin


 
Why do you say this. What's the corporation tax in the UK 21-28%, Germany 15.82% , France33.33%, Finland 26%, Luxemburg 29.63%, Belgium 33.99%, Sweden 26.3%, Russia 24%, Poland 19%,Italy 37.25%, Iceland 26%, Austria, 25%, Netherlands 25.5%, Spain 30%, 

Ireland 12.5% - There is something wrong with this. It's time for our multinationals to pay more tax. 

Can somebody answer how much 1 2 and 3 % on corporation tax incrase would bring in assuming all else is equal.

There is absolutely no reason why we could not increase this tax rate even taking into account wages and transport costs.

Freight in and out costs to Ireland will be similiar to what all these countries would pay assuming they buy raw materials in asia.Approx: 2% of revenue so this is not really an arguement, Our education standard is on par if not better that our Euro neighbours so that argument is out. so why not increase Corporation tax. Even if it went up by 5% we would still be lower than most countries in the world.


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## Protocol (15 May 2010)

The State pension (contributory) should not be cut.

Public sector pensions should be cut, in line with the public sector pay cuts.

The 700pw pensions that are typical among many public servants could be cut.


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## z107 (15 May 2010)

> Why do you say this. What's the corporation tax in the UK 21-28%, Germany 15.82% , France33.33%, Finland 26%, Luxemburg 29.63%, Belgium 33.99%, Sweden 26.3%, Russia 24%, Poland 19%,Italy 37.25%, Iceland 26%, Austria, 25%, Netherlands 25.5%, Spain 30%,
> 
> Ireland 12.5% - There is something wrong with this. It's time for our multinationals to pay more tax.


*Our* multinationals? lol! - you mean America's multinationals (and other country's MNCs who like low corp tax)
The main reason Google, Microsoft and Intel etc, etc... are here is because of low corporation tax. I thought that was understood.
Raise this tax and these companies may find that it's not as lucrative to stay here and they'll go. Isn't America already putting the pressure on?

I'm sure the 12.5% figure is worked out to take other factors into consideration to make it worthwhile for these companies to stay. Upset the balance and they'll leave. It really is the last thing that needs to be touched.

(If they did leave, maybe indigenous companies would be able to afford staff, and grow. Just a theory)


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## z104 (15 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> *Our* multinationals? lol! - you mean America's multinationals (and other country's MNCs who like low corp tax)
> The main reason Google, Microsoft and Intel etc, etc... are here is because of low corporation tax. I thought that was understood.
> Raise this tax and these companies may find that it's not as lucrative to stay here and they'll go. Isn't America already putting the pressure on?
> 
> ...


 
And where will they go to that has a lower tax rate, english speaking workforce with easy access to a multilingual pool and a highy educated workforce.


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## jhegarty (15 May 2010)

India.


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## becky (15 May 2010)

Protocol said:


> The 700pw pensions that are typical among many public servants could be cut.


 Really, do you have a source? I make that now on a salary of €55k.  If I was to get €700 a week as a pensioner my final salary would need to be circa €100k pa with 40 years service. It's possible for me to achieve based on the current rules but it's hardly typical.


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## Moral Ethos (15 May 2010)

jhegarty said:


> India.


People in the US will not tolerate having to call up India.


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## jhegarty (15 May 2010)

Call centre business seemed to be booming last time I was there.


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## rusty (16 May 2010)

*Means testing pensions*

I have seen minister o Cuiv flying a kite about means testing pensions. Given that non-contributory state pensions are already means-tested,I expect he is referring to contributory state pensions and public service pensions. How unconstitutional is that?


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## shanegl (16 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> Means test ,means test , means test
> 
> Do not just blanket cut people who have to live on 230 quid a week. These people have paid tax and worked their whole Life.
> 
> ...



What you need to understand is that there are enough hard working people out there at the moment to support the pensions pyramid scheme. By the time we retire, there won't be.


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## Purple (16 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> Why do you say this. What's the corporation tax in the UK 21-28%, Germany 15.82% , France33.33%, Finland 26%, Luxemburg 29.63%, Belgium 33.99%, Sweden 26.3%, Russia 24%, Poland 19%,Italy 37.25%, Iceland 26%, Austria, 25%, Netherlands 25.5%, Spain 30%,
> 
> Ireland 12.5% - There is something wrong with this. It's time for our multinationals to pay more tax.
> 
> ...


We are a small island off the coast of a bigger island off the coast of Europe. Costs are higher here than in most of Western Europe and all of the Eastern Europe. Companies here have access to a tiny pool of skilled labour (There are 20 million people within a two hour drive of Düsseldorf). The notion that we have a world class education system is laughable. Our ability to link between universities and industry is (and I’m being very kind here) embryonic. We have very low levels of multilingualism and we have very little indigenous industry.    

Add to that the fact that we are an island so supply-chain management costs and times are high; the cost of unprocessed iron ore or other basic raw materials is irrelevant. Dell moved to Poland to be closer to their supply chain and their markets, as well as the labour costs. Anyone who thinks our location doesn’t matter when it comes to manufacturing needs their head examined. 

It’s all about the tax breaks, the rest is just stuff we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better.


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## Purple (16 May 2010)

Back on topic.


shanegl said:


> What you need to understand is that there are enough hard working people out there at the moment to support the pensions pyramid scheme. By the time we retire, there won't be.



That's the crux of it.


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## z104 (16 May 2010)

jhegarty said:


> India.


 
Not a chance,Maybe call centre jobs but you will find that multinationals have found that they made a mistake going to India and are now pulling their callcentres back.
http://info.shine.com/Article/ITES/...entre-ops-back-home-from-India/3518/cid3.aspx


The companies quoted earlier need a dependable elctricity supply. These companies have large datacentres that also need to be in a place with a reasonable ambient temperature otherwise they pay a fortune on air conditioning assuming the electricity doesn't shut down which it does almost weekly in India.

The companies quoted are also worried about their green credentials so they do not want to be huge guzzlers of electricty.

We really do sell ourselves short in this country, we have such a defeatest attitute and inferiority complex at times.


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## Protocol (16 May 2010)

becky said:


> Really, do you have a source? I make that now on a salary of €55k. If I was to get €700 a week as a pensioner my final salary would need to be circa €100k pa with 40 years service. It's possible for me to achieve based on the current rules but it's hardly typical.


 
For example, typical teacher/some civil servants/many public servants retiring on 72k, getting a pension of 36k, equals 700pw.

Very common situation.


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## Shawady (17 May 2010)

Protocol said:


> The State pension (contributory) should not be cut.
> 
> Public sector pensions should be cut, in line with the public sector pay cuts.
> 
> The 700pw pensions that are typical among many public servants could be cut.


 
If the state pension is cut, the public sector pension will also be cut. 
There is no way they would keep public sector pensions untouched and cut the contributory pension.
It may seem unfair, but the public sector pension bill is 2 billion and the state pension is 4 billion. If this 6 billion is a sacred cow that can never be cut it will be impossible for the government o reach their target of reducing the deficit IMO.


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## csirl (17 May 2010)

> If the state pension is cut, the public sector pension will also be cut.


 
Public sector pensions should be self funding ring fenced defined contribution schemes. However the Government cant afford this as they are using pension contributions from todays public servants to pay current expenditure instead of putting it a pension fund. Also, the public sector pension deficit is nothing to do with todays public sector workers - most pay enough in contributions to pay for their pensions if the contributions were put in ring fenced pension schemes. The problem is that todays public sector pensioners and those due to retire within the near future paid little or nothing towards their pensions and are causing the defict.


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## Mpsox (17 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> The companies quoted earlier need a dependable elctricity supply. These companies have large datacentres that also need to be in a place with a reasonable ambient temperature otherwise they pay a fortune on air conditioning assuming the electricity doesn't shut down which it does almost weekly in India.
> 
> 
> We really do sell ourselves short in this country, we have such a defeatest attitute and inferiority complex at times.


 
I know this is off topic, but speaking as someone who works for one of these multinationals in India with thousands employed in data centres and call centres out these, if anything, the facilities out there are better then in Ireland and all are backed up by effective UPS and generators (as they would be here). The reason companies go there is that you can get highly qualified and trained staff, often with a better attitude then many of the so called well qualified prima donnas that come out of our colleges for a far lower cost.


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## csirl (17 May 2010)

If you look at the advanced western countries on a map of the world, Ireland is the most centrally located - right in the middle with Europe to the east and USA to the west. We downgrade our mid-Atlantic location too much. Its the best location in the world.


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## Protocol (17 May 2010)

Shawady said:


> If the state pension is cut, the public sector pension will also be cut.
> There is no way they would keep public sector pensions untouched and cut the contributory pension.


 
I agree with you, but I have seen or read nothing in the papers over the last week to suggest a cut in public service pensions (in line with the public service wage cuts).

All I have heard mentioned is cutting the State pensions (OACP and OANCP)

My point is that so far public sector workers have taken 2 cuts, but public sector pensioners have taken no cuts.

So if we want to reduce the overall pension costs this year, then I suggest to start first with public service pensions.

A retired public servant with 700pw pension, no mortgage, no child costs, etc. can take a 5-10%.

Whereas somebody depending solely of the 240pw State pension is not in such a good financial situation.


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## MANTO (17 May 2010)

jhegarty said:


> Call centre business seemed to be booming last time I was there.


 
11850 have recently been transferred there - Now can you imagine Jonno ringing up looking for Fuscardi's takeaway in Baldoyle.....


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## z107 (17 May 2010)

> The companies quoted earlier need a dependable elctricity supply. These companies have large datacentres that also need to be in a place with a reasonable ambient temperature otherwise they pay a fortune on air conditioning assuming the electricity doesn't shut down which it does almost weekly in India.


Well Google and Microsoft, at least haven't really 'relocated' here. They use Ireland as a tax haven and mostly do admin and sales work here. The real development work and interesting stuff is not done here.
Things aren't looking too good for Intel:
[broken link removed]


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## z104 (17 May 2010)

csirl said:


> If you look at the advanced western countries on a map of the world, Ireland is the most centrally located - right in the middle with Europe to the east and USA to the west. We downgrade our mid-Atlantic location too much. Its the best location in the world.


 
Very True, I work for one of those companies and I deal with EMEA in the morning and US in the afternoon.

The time Zone is another factor definetly to our benefit.


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## DerKaiser (17 May 2010)

csirl said:


> Also, the public sector pension deficit is nothing to do with todays public sector workers - most pay enough in contributions to pay for their pensions if the contributions were put in ring fenced pension schemes. The problem is that todays public sector pensioners and those due to retire within the near future paid little or nothing towards their pensions and are causing the defict.


 
The current pension deficit is based on past service and contractual benefits accrued as a result. Much of this is owed to public servants with 10, 20, 30 years service who are not nearing retirement as well as to those nearing retirement or already retired.

A few things can be done to make public sector pensions more affordable:

1) A higher employee contribution - already done
2) Curtail Future accruals - offer less generous terms e.g. base final benefits on career average salary rather than final salary
3) Indexing of benefits accrued to date - switch to a system of discretionary increases based on price rather than earnings inflation

The problem is only item 3) affects current pensioners. So if all 3 actions were implemented those nearly or already retired are still doing quite well compared to those lower down the 'pyrimid'. 

That's why so many people find it so galling that this group are being spared any pain whatsoever.

This 'pyramid' situation is even worse for insolvent private sector pension schemes where someone approaching retirement can lose all their entitlements whilst the recently retired retain all of theirs


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## DerKaiser (17 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> Very True, I work for one of those companies and I deal with EMEA in the morning and US in the afternoon.
> 
> The time Zone is another factor definetly to our benefit.


 
The multinationals are quite fickle and you'd be a brave person to take the risk that our educated workforce and favourable timezone would outweigh the attraction of our 12.5% tax rate


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## becky (17 May 2010)

Protocol said:


> For example, typical teacher/some civil servants/many public servants retiring on 72k, getting a pension of 36k, equals 700pw.
> 
> Very common situation.


 
Maybe to teachers but I don't accept it's typical in the public service.

I ran a quick report here and out of out 2,500 pensioners only 202 retired on salary greater than €70K pa.  Even that doesn't say they are on pensions of €35 per annum.


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## z104 (17 May 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> The multinationals are quite fickle and you'd be a brave person to take the risk that our educated workforce and favourable timezone would outweigh the attraction of our 12.5% tax rate


 

Our tax is about one third the rate of our competitors..I think we ahve some flexibility.


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## Protocol (17 May 2010)

becky said:


> Maybe to teachers but I don't accept it's typical in the public service.
> 
> I ran a quick report here and out of out 2,500 pensioners only 202 retired on salary greater than €70K pa. Even that doesn't say they are on pensions of €35 per annum.


 
Yes, I accept there are plenty of public servants not retiring on 72k with 40 yrs service.

But there are plenty who do.

Doctors, other health workers, admin in VECs, LAs, teachers, lecturers, guards, etc.

Plenty of them on 700pw pensions, who could afford a pension cut, just like their working colleagues.


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## Purple (17 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> Our tax is about one third the rate of our competitors..I think we ahve some flexibility.


 Poland is at 19% with lower income tax and much lower wages. Many Eastern European countries are around our level, some are lower.


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## becky (17 May 2010)

I agree high earning pensioners can afford a cut, I just don't agree there are lots and lots of them earning €35,000 pa.

The reason they didn't suffer so far was because no pensioner paid the income levy or pensioner levy. 

The government held off on the paycut in an attempt to encourage early retirements - it did encourage some but nothing like the numbers they hoped for.

Public service pensioners have now lost the pay relationship with their former grade. Okay it has not been announced offically as far as I'm aware but they have lost it nonetheless and I fully expect they will suffer a reduction come the next paycut.


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## roker (17 May 2010)

What would be the point of taking out a private pension if you were penalised by reductions on your state pension (which you have also paid into), household benefit packages etc.


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## MandaC (17 May 2010)

roker said:


> What would be the point of taking out a private pension if you were penalised by reductions on your state pension (which you have also paid into), household benefit packages etc.



I am with you on this one.  I am actually considering not paying anymore in for this reason.


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## z107 (17 May 2010)

> What would be the point of taking out a private pension if you were penalised by reductions on your state pension (which you have also paid into), household benefit packages etc.


Well it would encourage me to take out a private pension. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm not expecting anything from the state when (if) I retire.


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## DerKaiser (17 May 2010)

Just watching the Frontline.

OAP up from €99 in 1997 to €230 today.  Up over 60% even after allowing for rises in the cost of living.

Its under €115 in the UK.

How in the name of God can we continue to support this?

There's nothing special about us compared to the UK.  Reductions in taxes and increases in pensions, social welfare and public sector pay were based on fantasy over the last 10 years.  

None of these should be immune to correction.  The only possible way we can reach a solution without riots does not involve exempting any sector of society from contributing to reducing the budget deficit.


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## z104 (18 May 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> Just watching the Frontline.
> 
> OAP up from €99 in 1997 to €230 today. Up over 60% even after allowing for rises in the cost of living.
> 
> ...


 

Society has broken down in many parts of the UK with elderly people freezing to death becuase they cannot afford to heat their homes. Do you really want to go down this road. Pensioners (i.e you should be looked after when you get old) Means test people. This is the fairest way.


Penioners need to be protected. DerKaiser, Could you live on 230 euro per week. The 60% rise looks like alot becuase it's coming from a low base. You can make percentages look like whatever you want.


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## Purple (18 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> Penioners need to be protected. DerKaiser, Could you live on 230 euro per week. The 60% rise looks like alot becuase it's coming from a low base. You can make percentages look like whatever you want.



Bit of an exaggeration there Niallers. While it does happen it’s a big country and it gets much colder there than here. The last bout of heavy snow we had was about the same as the north of England gets every year and a few old people froze to death here. Would they have been alright if they had an extra €50 a week in their pension?


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## Sunny (18 May 2010)

I have no problem paying OAP's €230 a week. The elderly in our society deserve our gratitude and respect. I also have no problem paying people who find themselves suddenly unemployed after years of working €200 a week. I do have a problem with the whole universal aspect of social welfare though. Like child benefit, some people do not need it. We have limited resources and what resources we do have should be targeted at the most vunerable. 
We need to ask ourselves what type of welfare system we want. I don't believe in comparing ourselves to the UK or any other Country. I am proud that we look after our vunerable as long as they are truely vunerable. There is little doubt that there are far too many people benefiting from welfare that don't need it whether that is in child allowance, OAP, Rent allowance, single parent allowance, Job seekers allowance etc....


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## z104 (18 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> I have no problem paying OAP's €230 a week. The elderly in our society deserve our gratitude and respect. I also have no problem paying people who find themselves suddenly unemployed after years of working €200 a week. I do have a problem with the whole universal aspect of social welfare though. Like child benefit, some people do not need it. We have limited resources and what resources we do have should be targeted at the most vunerable.
> We need to ask ourselves what type of welfare system we want. I don't believe in comparing ourselves to the UK or any other Country. I am proud that we look after our vunerable as long as they are truely vunerable. There is little doubt that there are far too many people benefiting from welfare that don't need it whether that is in child allowance, OAP, Rent allowance, single parent allowance, Job seekers allowance etc....


 
This is the best approach. Not blanket cuts. Means testing is the way


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## DerKaiser (18 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> I have no problem paying OAP's €230 a week. The elderly in our society deserve our gratitude and respect. I also have no problem paying people who find themselves suddenly unemployed after years of working €200 a week. I do have a problem with the whole universal aspect of social welfare though. Like child benefit, some people do not need it. We have limited resources and what resources we do have should be targeted at the most vunerable.
> We need to ask ourselves what type of welfare system we want. I don't believe in comparing ourselves to the UK or any other Country. I am proud that we look after our vunerable as long as they are truely vunerable. There is little doubt that there are far too many people benefiting from welfare that don't need it whether that is in child allowance, OAP, Rent allowance, single parent allowance, Job seekers allowance etc....


 
A lot of sound bites in there.

The trouble is that respect and gratitude our OAPs are in receipt of at the moment is coming from the international money markets, not us.

OAPs currently represent a flat tax of about 6% on all workers. By the time most of us will have retired this will have increased to 15% due to demographics.

If we can't afford 6% now (we are borrowing to pay it rather than funding it from taxes) what makes anyone think we will be able to afford 15% in the future.

I have no respect for the following:
1) The view that we can bury our heads in the sand and declare any aspect of public spending untouchable
2) The view that it is right that many working people are giving up upwards of 20% of their net pay and we should not have so much as a token gesture from OAPs in an environment of falling prices 

So give me a break on gratitude and respect until such a time as we actually have to make a genuine sacrifice to prove it


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## Protocol (18 May 2010)

What about just cutting the non-contributory State pension, as these people have not worked enough or paid enough PRSI?

Surely those who work and pay PRSI deserve more than those who haven't?


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## Complainer (18 May 2010)

becky said:


> I agree high earning pensioners can afford a cut, I just don't agree there are lots and lots of them earning €35,000 pa.


The only fair solution to this is tax. If we believe that those earning €35k should be making a contribution, then we tax all those earning €35k, regardless of the source of their income. 



Niallers said:


> Very True, I work for one of those companies and I deal with EMEA in the morning and US in the afternoon.
> 
> The time Zone is another factor definetly to our benefit.





csirl said:


> If you look at the advanced western countries on a map of the world, Ireland is the most centrally located - right in the middle with Europe to the east and USA to the west. We downgrade our mid-Atlantic location too much. Its the best location in the world.



Indeed, having worked in a US multinational, I think our time zone is a huge benefit. The lack of any overlap in office hours between much of the US and India has been a huge hinderance to India.


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## Sunny (18 May 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> A lot of sound bites in there.
> 
> The trouble is that respect and gratitude our OAPs are in receipt of at the moment is coming from the international money markets, not us.
> 
> ...


 
Show me where I said the OAP or any other aspect of social welfare was untouchable? Unlike you or many other people on this site, I don't pretend to understand what it is like to try and live on €200 or €230 per week as your only source of income. There are genuine hardship cases out there and I don't care how many economic facts you throw out, these people need to be protected. 
As I pointed out, there are many people in receipt of various social welfare payments that don't need them. Target these people first before trying to introduce a crude blanket cut. Lets see how much that will save us. It is the same with the medical card. The Government should never of backed down. There are people in receipt of the card that don't need it.
My point is that I have nothing against a generous social welfare system as long as it is targeted at the people who genuinely need it.


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## Sunny (18 May 2010)

Complainer said:


> The only fair solution to this is tax. If we believe that those earning €35k should be making a contribution, then we tax all those earning €35k, regardless of the source of their income.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I agree with that suggestion. Easiest and cleanest solution


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## dereko1969 (18 May 2010)

Purple said:


> We are a small island off the coast of a bigger island off the coast of Europe. Costs are higher here than in most of Western Europe and all of the Eastern Europe. Companies here have access to a tiny pool of skilled labour (There are 20 million people within a two hour drive of Düsseldorf). The notion that we have a world class education system is laughable. Our ability to link between universities and industry is (and I’m being very kind here) embryonic. We have very low levels of multilingualism and we have very little indigenous industry.
> 
> Add to that the fact that we are an island so supply-chain management costs and times are high; the cost of unprocessed iron ore or other basic raw materials is irrelevant. *Dell moved to Poland to be closer to their supply chain and their markets, as well as the labour costs*. Anyone who thinks our location doesn’t matter when it comes to manufacturing needs their head examined.
> 
> It’s all about the tax breaks, the rest is just stuff we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better.


 
While I agree with virtually everything you've said here (which may just be a first) Dell should probably be a lesson to other companies in how not to transfer production - huge time delays on their products since they moved to Poland - the IDA should make a note of that when 'selling' Ireland abroad.


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## z104 (18 May 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> A lot of sound bites in there.
> 
> The trouble is that respect and gratitude our OAPs are in receipt of at the moment is coming from the international money markets, not us.
> 
> ...


 
De Kaiser,
Most people want a society that looks after our elderly and vulnerable.

Maybe you would have all the old people killed off when they came to retirement age and all the other vulnerable people killed off. It would be much easier than looking after them.

The below seems to be your idea of heaven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's_Run

Remember , you will be old someday.


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## Purple (18 May 2010)

Niallers said:


> De Kaiser,
> Most people want a society that looks after our elderly and vulnerable.
> 
> Maybe you would have all the old people killed off when they retired and all the other vulnerable people keilled off. It would be much easier than looking after them.



Eh?? 

So anyone who thinks that pensions should not be exempt from cuts is a closet advocate of mass-murder? 

Now you're not just stretching it...


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## z104 (18 May 2010)

Purple said:


> Eh??
> 
> So anyone who thinks that pensions should not be exempt from cuts is a closet advocate of mass-murder?
> 
> Now you're not just stretching it...


 
Deep down , probably


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## Purple (18 May 2010)

niallers said:


> deep down , probably



 Lol


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## DerKaiser (18 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> I don't care how many economic facts you throw out, these people need to be protected.


 
Well the sad fact is that we do live in a world where economic facts matter.

Sooner or later we will not only have to stop borrowing, but will also be obliged to start making repayments on the debts we have run up.

Do you not worry about this day?

Do you not think that we will get to a situation where we will have to live within our means?

In college I definitely lived on less than the level of the OAP (having to pay rent) and it's increased 60% in real terms since then.

In my view, the difference between say €200 and €230 in the OAP will cause far less pain than where we will end up if we do nothing.

The point is that a person with a medical card and free accomodation will not starve or freeze on €200 or even €150 p.w.  

If, however, we continue to rack up massive debts, then we could get to a situation where the country can not even afford to give free medical care or €150 p.w. to our OAPs in the future.  Don't be so naive, foolish or optimistic as to belive that this could not happen.


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## ajapale (18 May 2010)

Topic Reminder:

The subject of this thread is the proposed cuts to Social Welfare OA pension floated by Min OCuiv.
 [broken link removed]

I wonder does Minister for Social Protection Ó Cuív wish to go down in history with Minister Ernest Blythe in 1924 when he reduced old-age pensions from 10 shillings (50p) to 9  shillings (45p) a week.



			
				wiki said:
			
		

> In the 1933 general  election Blythe lost his seat.
> 
> Blythe was a senior figure in the Blueshirts  and his support for the fascist leader Eoin  O'Duffy


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## Purple (19 May 2010)

ajapale said:


> Topic Reminder:
> 
> The subject of this thread is the proposed cuts to Social Welfare OA pension floated by Min OCuiv.
> [broken link removed]
> ...


So FG's grandaddy cut pensions. Would they have the balls to do it now?


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## roker (20 May 2010)

I have paid PRSI for over 30 year, (plus taxes) where has my money gone? it is spent by the Government, If I had saved it and invested it I would have ample pension by now, pension is my entitlement. 
I have a doctors visiting card, I also spend the maximum amount each month on medication for myself and my wife, which was recently increase to €120, I must pay if I go in to hospital or have dental treatment. This has all taken from my allowance.


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## Moral Ethos (20 May 2010)

The money we are paying in today is paying the current pensioners. We will never see a red cent of it.


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## Protocol (21 May 2010)

roker said:


> I have paid PRSI for over 30 year, (plus taxes) where has my money gone? it is spent by the Government, If I had saved it and invested it I would have ample pension by now, pension is my entitlement.


 
PRSI payments go into the Social Ins fund, out of which is paid social insurance payments.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/Cor...Documents/socialinsurancefundaccounts2008.pdf


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