# Public Transport company cancels hundreds of journeys.



## TheBigShort (21 Sep 2017)

A public transport company has cancelled hundreds of scheduled journeys bought and paid for by the hard-pressed taxpayer and consumer.
Inconveniencing thousands of passengers due to a complete mismanagement of schedules and staffing, staff across Europe have taken a stand against a diluting of their terms and conditions of employment. Senior management have confirmed no heads will roll after this shambles and the blame rests with the CEO who won't be resigning.
Typical public sector.
Meanwhile in the private sector....


----------



## Palerider (22 Sep 2017)

The oldest argument rolls forward,    Apart from your sarcasm what point are you trying to make,


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Sep 2017)

I think it's a very valid post. 

If this were Dublin Bus cancelling a whole pile of bus routes because it had messed up on the annual leave, I, for one, would certainly be calling for its replacement by private sector bus companies. 

Brendan


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

Palerider said:


> The oldest argument rolls forward, Apart from your sarcasm what point are you trying to make,



I think Brendan answers your question quite well.



Brendan Burgess said:


> If this were Dublin Bus cancelling a whole pile of bus routes because it had messed up on the annual leave, I, for one, would certainly be calling for its replacement by private sector bus companies.



The second point is that it appears that pilots across Europe are acting in unison, in a co-ordinated united front against a diluting of their terms and conditions of work.
This is like trade unionism?


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> The second point is that it appears that pilots across Europe are acting in unison, in a co-ordinated united front against a diluting of their terms and conditions of work.



No - they are acting as a monopoly trying to get more money. 

Imagine the outcry if all the pubs in Dublin acted in unison in a co-ordinated untied front to increase their prices!

Brendan


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> No - they are acting as a monopoly trying to get more money.



In the absence of structured and transparent mechanism for staff to lay claim to, what they perceive, fair pay for fair work, this is the outcome.


----------



## cremeegg (22 Sep 2017)

I absolutely accept he point being made here by the OP.

However the further point he misses is that the markets have already punished Ryanair, the total value of the company has fallen by 3.3 billion Euro in a month. From just over 29 billion to 25.6 billion.  https://ycharts.com/companies/RYAAY/market_cap

While the people paying for the cancelled journeys are no doubt for the most part taxpayers, they chose to pay for those journeys, paying tax is a legal requirement. In future those taxpayers can choose not to travel with Ryanair, they cannot choose not to pay tax.

Unlike a monopoly business, travellers can decide that they do not wish to travel with such an unreliable company and choose other airlines. Again his will punish Ryanair.

It is Ryanair shareholders who suffer this market punishment, they have the power to dismiss Ryanair management. Where Public servants mess up their customers have no such power to dismiss them. Voters have the much less power to not reelect the political masters of public servants, at the next election, when every other aspect of governing the country has to be considered as well.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> In the absence of structured and transparent mechanism for staff to lay claim to, what they perceive, fair pay for fair work, this is the outcome.



OK, so would you be ok with all the airlines getting together and agreeing a maximum salary for what they determine to be fair pay for fair work? 

Brendan


----------



## The Horseman (22 Sep 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> OK, so would you be ok with all the airlines getting together and agreeing a maximum salary for what they determine to be fair pay for fair work?
> 
> Brendan


No. Let the market decide, yet again we are looking at putting in structures that lead to inefficiencies.


----------



## noproblem (22 Sep 2017)

It's not unlike price fixing in what they're trying to do, but not by choice a certain O Leary guy has given them a window of opportunity to (maybe) screw him  and it's good enough for him. I do hope they get better pay and conditions, but not at my expense or discomfort.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Sep 2017)

The Horseman said:


> No. Let the market decide, yet again we are looking at putting in structures that lead to inefficiencies.



Hi Horseman 

I am not putting in any structures. I am letting people of their own free will in the market to club together to keep salaries down. Is that not what should happen in a free market? 

Of course, each airline would be free to stay outside the cartel and set their own prices. 

Brendan


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

cremeegg said:


> It is Ryanair shareholders who suffer this market punishment, they have the power to dismiss Ryanair management. Where Public servants mess up their customers have no such power to dismiss them. Voters have the much less power to not reelect the political masters of public servants, at the next election, when every other aspect of governing the country has to be considered as well.



I don't disagree in general with your points but I suppose the point I am trying to make, which is my bad for not making it clear, is that there is a tendency to admonish the public sector and all its apparent failings while pointing to the lack of accountability. This is followed with the somewhat exaggerated claims that if such failings occurred in the private sector then the axe would fall on those responsible, no questions asked. This is proffered as an effective way to foster maximum productivity and efficiency, hence its good value for consumers.
The reality is far from this. When it comes to accountability in the private sector, most managers will automatically will adopt a strategy of self-preservation pointing to system failures rather than personal accountability similar to public sector workers.
This is not a criticism, this is just an acknowledgement of the reality of working in large organizations. That when the worst hits the fan, both public and private sector worker's will react in similar vein.
In this case, the CEO is accepting responsibility, not for the cock-up in scheduling, as he is unlikely to be directly involved, but for the subsequent fall in share prices. And as you have pointed out, the shareholders can get rid of the management if need be.
Ditto public sector, when the worst hits the fan the buck will stop at the Minister or Commissioner or whoever. But the worker's in the public service are then lambasted for the 'protective culture' etc, when in reality, private sector worker's, working in large organizations, adopt the same methods of self-preservation.


----------



## Firefly (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> A public transport company has cancelled hundreds of scheduled journeys bought and paid for by the hard-pressed taxpayer and consumer.
> Inconveniencing thousands of passengers due to a complete mismanagement of schedules and staffing, staff across Europe have taken a stand against a diluting of their terms and conditions of employment. Senior management have confirmed no heads will roll after this shambles and the blame rests with the CEO who won't be resigning.
> Typical public sector.
> Meanwhile in the private sector....



Firstly, the Ryanair fiasco must have made your whole week. I'd say you are weak at the knees with excitement.

Of course, it's a momumental screw-up. Whilst nobody seems to have been sacked, those with the greatest to lose financially, the shareholders, have lost quite a bit with the man at the top losing most.

However, all is not lost:

The passengers can get compensation. Not so when the public sector cancels services.
The passengers can fly with someone else. Not so when the public sector cancels services.
The taxpayer has not had to foot the bill. Not so when the public sector cancels services.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

Firefly said:


> Firstly, the Ryanair fiasco must have made you whole week. I'd say you are weak at the knees with excitement.



Why? Ryanair is a great company, employees thousands of people and I was once, briefly, a shareholder. 
Why on earth would you post such nonsense?


----------



## Firefly (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Why? Ryanair is a great company



My bad. I agree with you by the way.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (22 Sep 2017)

Firefly said:


> The passengers can get compensation. Not so when the public sector cancels services.
> The passengers can fly with someone else. Not so when the public sector cancels services.
> The taxpayer has not had to foot the bill. Not so when the public sector cancels services.



I presume that the international rules or EU rules apply to all airlines whether privately or publicly owned? 

The owners of a company get the profits and foot the bills for the errors. I don't think it makes any difference whether it's privately owned or publicly owned? 

Brendan


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> A public transport company has cancelled hundreds of scheduled journeys bought and paid for by the hard-pressed taxpayer and consumer.
> Inconveniencing thousands of passengers due to a complete mismanagement of schedules and staffing, staff across Europe have taken a stand against a diluting of their terms and conditions of employment. Senior management have confirmed no heads will roll after this shambles and the blame rests with the CEO who won't be resigning.
> Typical public sector.
> Meanwhile in the private sector....


Happened this week in Navan as Bus Eireann made a complete hames of their restructuring of the disastrous 109 Cavan-Dublin bus service - a service that takes more than double the time of the same journey by car. See Peadar Toibin's twitter page.

Except the BE staff didn't take a stand as they don't care a fiddlers about their passengers. So nearly nobody outside those directly affected even knows about it.

Typical public sector.

Meanwhile in the private sector.... Ryanair get hammered for making a similar mistake.


----------



## Firefly (22 Sep 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The owners of a company get the profits and foot the bills for the errors. I don't think it makes any difference whether it's privately owned or publicly owned?



The owners in the private sector have made voluntary investments in the business and accept that they may make or lose money. The owners in the public sector are you, me and everyone else who have no say and continually foots the bill to lose making monopolies.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> Happened this week in Navan as Bus Eireann made a complete hames of their restructuring of the disastrous 109 Cavan-Dublin bus service - *a service that takes more than double the time of the same journey by car.* See Peadar Toibin's twitter page.



Is that because the driver drives the bus slowly? Should he drive it as if he were driving a car? Do car drivers have to stop to drop off and take on passengers along the route? Could that have something to do with it? 



T McGibney said:


> Except the BE staff didn't take a stand as they don't care a fiddlers about their passengers. So nearly nobody outside those directly affected even knows about it.



So now if public sector workers don't take a stand they are the bad guys too? A bit of damned if you do damned if you don't?



T McGibney said:


> Typical public sector.



Exactly the point I'm making, as pointed out by Brendan earlier also.
There is a different attitude to public/private sector worker's when things go wrong.
My point is that broadly speaking, there is little difference between either save, one works to maximize profit for their owner, the other works to provide a service.
In both instances, inefficiencies, inadequacies, lack of responsibility, can come to the fore in both sectors.
The reaction to these inefficiencies differ quite some bit, depending on which sector it emerges from. Even though, at the end of the day, there is often little difference between either.


----------



## cremeegg (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> There is a different attitude to public/private sector worker's when things go wrong.



Of course there is. When things go wrong in a private company that is their problem. Maybe they fix it maybe they don't, who cares.

When things go wrong in the public sector, at best my taxes are used to fix it, or at worse to cover it up. And I have so little control over that as to be no control.


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Is that because the driver drives the bus slowly? Should he drive it as if he were driving a car? *Do car drivers have to stop to drop off and take on passengers along the route? *Could that have something to do with it?



You've accidentally hit the nail on the head. Bus Eireann have labelled the 80-mile trip from Cavan to Dublin as local service bus in order to attract state subsidy. For that reason it avoids the motorway to trundle through a series of towns in Co. Meath, all of which have alternative Bus Eireann services.

And it means that commuters and others have to endure innumerate stops along the route, both in towns and villages and at random points along the road.

Equivalent-length journeys to and from Dublin are generally classed as Expressways which don't attract subsidy.

But that's all a side issue to what we're discussing here.




TheBigShort said:


> So now if public sector workers don't take a stand they are the bad guys too? A bit of damned if you do damned if you don't?


I haven't labelled anyone as "the bad guys".  BE staff have tolerated the obvious nonsense on the 109 route for years. They have never taken any sort of stand about it. I conclude on that basis that they don't care a fiddlers about their passengers. You are free to conclude differently if the mood takes you.



TheBigShort said:


> There is a different attitude to public/private sector worker's when things go wrong.



There sure is. In the private sector, workers can get sacked or otherwise lose their jobs as a result of their own and their employers' respective underperformance. That doesn't happen in the public sector.



TheBigShort said:


> My point is that broadly speaking, there is little difference between either save, one works to maximize profit for their owner, the other works to provide a service.


Ryanair works to maximize profit for its owner. The Bus Eireann 109 service works to maximize state subsidy for Bus Eireann.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> You've accidentally hit the nail on the head. Bus Eireann have labelled the 80-mile trip from Cavan to Dublin as local service bus in order to attract state subsidy. For that reason it avoids the motorway to trundle through a series of towns in Co. Meath, all of which have alternative Bus Eireann services.
> 
> And it means that commuters and others have to endure innumerate stops along the route, both in towns and villages and at random points along the road.
> 
> ...


 Yes it is. But my interpretation of that is that you think the bus should drive direct from Cavan to Dublin without picking up commuters?



T McGibney said:


> I haven't labelled anyone as "the bad guys". BE staff have tolerated the obvious nonsense on the 109 route for years. They have never taken any sort of stand about it. I conclude on that basis that they don't care a fiddlers about their passengers. You are free to conclude differently if the mood takes you.



Sorry, that is correct, you haven't labelled anyone as "bad guys", you just said instead



T McGibney said:


> Except the BE staff didn't take a stand as they don't care a fiddlers about their passengers



which is, aside from being completely subjective, it is also so complimentary!



T McGibney said:


> There sure is. In the private sector, workers can get sacked or otherwise lose their jobs as a result of their own and their employers' respective underperformance. That doesn't happen in the public sector.



Do they though? Is it really that easy to sack someone? Has anyone been sacked in Ryanair? Will anyone get sacked in Ryanair? My guess is no-one will get sacked - and I hope that is the case, including the top dog!


----------



## newirishman (22 Sep 2017)

What a lot of nonsense. Ryanair has cancelled what 2% of their flights? Dublin Bus lets me rot at the side of the road significantly more often than that due to either RT system not working, or buses being too full to stop, or being on strike, or whatever. Usually with no compensation whatsoever when I have no choice but to find a taxi as the alternative.

To be clear, I am not in any way endorsing how Ryanair has handled this situation. Those short term cancellations are extremely nasty.. And it is an absolute pain in the neck to have a flight cancelled, even more so if it is the actual airline's fault instead of bad weather or volcanoes. I am (unfortunately) flying a lot, also with Ryanair, and had my fair share of delays, (not as much) cancellations, security incidents, etc, over the years. It is not nice, and airport terminals are one of the most dreadful places to be stuck for any period of time when travelling.

OP writes about "Inconveniencing thousands of passengers due to a complete mismanagement of schedules and staffing".
This sentence very much sums up the daily experience of Dublin's public transport system. I am sure users of public transport across the country would find it hard to disagree with me.

The point is, with Ryanair you have a choice - use a different airline. Take the ferry. If you are living on the continent, take a train. 
With public transport system, there is no comparable choice. Even worse, the public transport companies are actively fighting against such a choice being provided.

I daresay though that there will be no relevant mid-term impact to Ryanair's business or demand coming from this situation.


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Yes it is. But my interpretation of that is that you think the bus should drive direct from Cavan to Dublin without picking up commuters?



The Donegal-Dublin 30 Expressway service which covers the same route (but is only randomly accessible to Cavan passengers subject to limited availability) picks up passengers in Cavan, Virginia and Kells only. Quite sufficient.



> Sorry, that is correct, you haven't labelled anyone as "bad guys"


Thank you. 



> which is, aside from being completely subjective, it is also so complimentary!


It's hardly complimentary to suggest that bus company workers "don't care a fiddlers about their passengers"



> Has anyone been sacked in Ryanair? Will anyone get sacked in Ryanair?



They sack people all the time.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> They sack people all the time.



This is sad to hear, I thought it was a great company. Now it sounds like it must be an awful place to work. Why would they be sacking people all the time? Are you sure of this?


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> This is sad to hear, I thought it was a great company. Now it sounds like it must be an awful place to work. Why would they be sacking people all the time? Are you sure of this?



I'd say its a very tough and unforgiving place to work. But it's a great company that has enriched the lives of millions of ordinary people.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> I'd say its a very tough and unforgiving place to work



You'd say? So you are not sure? I'm just wondering, a company that 'sacks people all the time' would pretty soon build a reputation as a bad employer in the eyes of the public. I don't get that with Ryanair, until this issue with the pilots came out that is.

Are you sure they 'sack people all the time?'


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Are you sure they 'sack people all the time?'



Why does it matter to you?


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

newirishman said:


> Dublin Bus lets me rot at the side of the road


 At tad exaggerated there I think!



newirishman said:


> Usually with no compensation whatsoever


 Compensation that airlines are forced to pay out come by way of European directives if I'm not mistaken, not out of the goodness of airline generosity. I would be all for all public transport companies being compelled to do the same.



newirishman said:


> when I have no choice but to find a taxi as the alternative


 So you have an alternative? More expensive, for sure, but ditto if your flight gets cancelled and you have to get somewhere (like home for instance).



newirishman said:


> This sentence very much sums up the daily experience of Dublin's public transport system.


 My experience of public transport in Dublin is broadly positive. For sure there are delays etc, but not always down to the fault of Dublin Bus. Roadworks for one, or increased passenger use. Unlike airlines, bus companies cannot always know when an extra 100 passengers will arrive for the service. Even so, carrying over 300,000 passengers a day (with no pre-bookings) is a big operation, it is roughly the same with Ryanair (with pre-bookings, no road works, other transport users using the same lane etc) 



newirishman said:


> I am sure users of public transport across the country would find it hard to disagree with me.



No, I don't. I use the train service occasionally now, about ten times a year. Always on time, leaving and arriving.



newirishman said:


> The point is, with Ryanair you have a choice - use a different airline



Do you really? I mean, if I want to get from Dublin to Heathrow, the only real option I can see is Aer Lingus. There is no other choice. On the other hand, if you don't want to use a bus, you can use the train, DART, LUAS or taxi



newirishman said:


> Take the ferry.


 Is that really a practical alternative? If I bring my car, yes, but if I want to go for one night on a business trip then its not really is it?



newirishman said:


> If you are living on the continent, take a train


 So my choices are Ryanair, or move abroad?



newirishman said:


> With public transport system, there is no comparable choice



Bus, train, DART, LUAS, taxi - all in the same continent too!


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> Why does it matter to you?



You made the claim that they 'sack people all the time', I'm suggesting they don't. That it is not quite that easy just to sack someone. I would expect a large organization like Ryanair to know that, and I would be very surprised if they do sack anyone on foot of this issue.

So all I'm asking is, do you know for sure that they sack people all the time, or are you just making that up?


----------



## qwerty5 (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Do you really? I mean, if I want to get from Dublin to Heathrow, the only real option I can see is Aer Lingus. There is no other choice. On the other hand, if you don't want to use a bus, you can use the train, DART, LUAS or taxi



Fly to a different airport and get the train. If you're flying out of Heathrow then you've no other choice. If your end destination is London then you've loads of choice.


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> You made the claim that they 'sack people all the time', I'm suggesting they don't. That it is not quite that easy just to sack someone. I would expect a large organization like Ryanair to know that, and I would be very surprised if they do sack anyone on foot of this issue.
> 
> So all I'm asking is, do you know for sure that they sack people all the time, or are you just making that up?


They have 13,000 staff so it's quite reasonable to say, without actually having checked the precise statistics, that "they sack people all the time". 

I asked you why does this matter to you. You haven't answered. As far as I can see you're merely trolling.


----------



## qwerty5 (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> They have 13,000 staff so it's quite reasonable to say, without actually having checked the precise statistics, that "they sack people all the time".



No it's not. I've worked in companies of that size and no company sacks people all the time. People move on or retire all of the time but sacking would be only a tiny number a year.
So I suppose, being pedantic, your point is true. But of no use to anybody.


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

qwerty5 said:


> No it's not. I've worked in companies of that size and no company sacks people all the time. People move on or retire all of the time but sacking would be only a tiny number a year.
> So I suppose, being pedantic, your point is true. But of no use to anybody.



It was a throwaway comment. And it's still probably factually true, given the industrial relations culture in Ryanair. I can't fathom why its so controversial that it has upset The BS.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> They have 13,000 staff so it's quite reasonable to say, without actually having checked the precise statistics, that "they sack people all the time".
> 
> I asked you why does this matter to you. You haven't answered. As far as I can see you're merely trolling.



No its not reasonable to assume at all. In fact a company that operates as efficiently as Ryanair does, in general, would indicate that their employees do a good job, making the liklihood for sacking anyone very unlikley and very rare.
In any case, making an assumption is completely different to stating something as fact.

The reason it matters to me is because the subject of this topic is to compare the different attitudes that the public have in relation to private sector workers and public sector workers. Part of that attitude stems from, what I perceive to be an over-exaggerated threat of being sacked in the private sector compared to that of the public sector.

I am using the current situation in Ryanair as an example to show how being sacked in the private sector is not as easy, or as common, as some would have you believe - yourself for instance. You stated as fact that Ryanair sack people all of the time. When you were quizzed a bit on this statement of fact, it emerged that it was simply your assumption.
I'm not here to bash Ryanair, I think its a great company, does its job very well. That is why also, I would be surprised if anyone was ever sacked over this. In particular, seeing how the CEO has already accepted the buck stops with him, then if anyone goes it will be him. I don't expect him to go, I not saying he should go, I think he should do what he said he was going to do. Find out what went wrong and fix it so it doesn't happen again - end of.


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Part of that attitude stems from, what I perceive to be an over-exaggerated threat of being sacked in the private sector compared to that of the public sector.



Have you any facts though to back up that tautological claim of over-exaggeration?


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> It was a throwaway comment. And it's still probably factually true, given the industrial relations culture in Ryanair. I can't fathom why its so controversial that it has upset The BS



Well at least you have admitted it an assumption. But its probably not factually true. Despite the bravado of the CEO when it comes to members of trade unions etc, its unlikely that Ryanair uses such a blunt instrument as sacking very often.

Here is what I said in post #12. Apologies for not making it clear from the start.



TheBigShort said:


> the point I am trying to make, which is my bad for not making it clear, is that there is a tendency to admonish the public sector and all its apparent failings while pointing to the lack of accountability. This is followed with the somewhat exaggerated claims that if such failings occurred in the private sector then the axe would fall on those responsible, no questions asked. This is proffered as an effective way to foster maximum productivity and efficiency, hence its good value for consumers.
> The reality is far from this. When it comes to accountability in the private sector, most managers will automatically will adopt a strategy of self-preservation pointing to system failures rather than personal accountability similar to public sector workers.
> This is not a criticism, this is just an acknowledgement of the reality of working in large organizations. That when the worst hits the fan, both public and private sector worker's will react in similar vein.





TheBigShort said:


> But the worker's in the public service are then lambasted for the 'protective culture' etc, when in reality, private sector worker's, working in large organizations, adopt the same methods of self-preservation.


----------



## newirishman (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> At tad exaggerated there I think!


You think?



TheBigShort said:


> Compensation that airlines are forced to pay out come by way of European directives if I'm not mistaken, not out of the goodness of airline generosity. I would be all for all public transport companies being compelled to do the same.



Indeed. But it is a known factor so will be prized in accordingly. The cost of running a business. Something that Irish public transport doesn't have to worry about. No downside to providing bad service due to no comparable alternative.



TheBigShort said:


> So you have an alternative? More expensive, for sure, but ditto if your flight gets cancelled and you have to get somewhere (like home for instance).



Not sure if you are deliberately missing the point? A taxi is not a like-for-like alternative to a bus. Another bus line would be, or a tram, or a DART.



TheBigShort said:


> My experience of public transport in Dublin is broadly positive. For sure there are delays etc, but not always down to the fault of Dublin Bus. Roadworks for one, or increased passenger use. Unlike airlines, bus companies cannot always know when an extra 100 passengers will arrive for the service. Even so, carrying over 300,000 passengers a day (with no pre-bookings) is a big operation, it is roughly the same with Ryanair (with pre-bookings, no road works, other transport users using the same lane etc)



Couldn't disagree more. I can only assume you are not living in Dublin, or not a regular user. 300K passengers a day? Munich, in Germany, has a similar population (roughly 1.5 million). Their public transport systems shifts about 700 people million per year. Dublin manages about _a third _of that number.

You apparently have never been to a city with a well executed public transport system. This does, by the way, not mean no delays. Or buses or trains being full. It is about how such things are managed, and potentially rectified in the long-term. The way you treat your customers if something goes wrong. Service Levels. Incident management. Communications. Ability to adapt and change. Public transport in Ireland fails on all of those.



TheBigShort said:


> No, I don't. I use the train service occasionally now, about ten times a year. Always on time, leaving and arriving.



Try the DART on a normal day. Or use the Belfast Enterprise service. 9 out of the last 10 times (over 18 months) it was not on time. And no, 5 minutes late is not on time.



TheBigShort said:


> Do you really? I mean, if I want to get from Dublin to Heathrow, the only real option I can see is Aer Lingus. There is no other choice. On the other hand, if you don't want to use a bus, you can use the train, DART, LUAS or taxi



There's half a dozen airports serving London. About half a dozen airlines servicing those airports from Ireland.
Train, Dart, Luas - all public transport. It isn't just the bus. Public transport in Dublin is _not good enough_.

A Taxi is not a classified as "public transport".



TheBigShort said:


> Is that really a practical alternative? If I bring my car, yes, but if I want to go for one night on a business trip then its not really is it?
> So my choices are Ryanair, or move abroad?
> Bus, train, DART, LUAS, taxi - all in the same continent too!



Again, not sure if you are deliberately missing the point or trolling? 2% of all Ryanair flights. All across their network, the majority of of which is - surprise - flying on the continent.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> Have you any facts though to back up that tautological claim of over-exaggeration?



Its a perception. Its based on the rationale that in order to sack someone they must have done something considered of gross misconduct or worse. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, of course it does - but it doesn't happen all the time, in fact it is relatively rare in large organisations.
The point being is the perception - like the perception that you have of Ryanair, sacking people all the time, then 'its reasonable to assume', then 'its still probably factually true'. Whereas, the opposite is most probably the case. Think about it? How would they be such a successful organization if employees were fearful of their jobs all the time?

Imagine if I said, in the public sector they sack people all of the time. What is your perception of that? I'm guessing, that you would consider that to be a false statement.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

newirishman said:


> You apparently have never been to a city with a well executed public transport system



Try London, Paris, New York, Toronto, Zurich, Sydney, Melbourne, San Fransciso to begin with

Here is a link to the NTA public transport performance results

[broken link removed]


----------



## Purple (22 Sep 2017)

qwerty5 said:


> Fly to a different airport and get the train. If you're flying out of Heathrow then you've no other choice. If your end destination is London then you've loads of choice.


British Airways fly from Dublin to Heathrow.


----------



## newirishman (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Try London, Paris, New York, Toronto, Zurich, Sydney, Melbourne, San Fransciso to begin with


So you lived in all of those cities, for a prolonged period of time, and have used the public transport there for your daily work commute? And you are still saying public transport in Dublin is not too bad? I give up....



TheBigShort said:


> Here is a link to the NTA public transport performance results
> 
> [broken link removed]



Despite those exceptional circumstances which are no ones fault but their own, Ryanair cancels 2% of their flights, i.e. *98%* are as usual.
According to the link you provided, Dublin Bus managed to operate *96.2%* of their scheduled services in Q1/2017.

What exactly is the point you are trying to make?


----------



## newirishman (22 Sep 2017)

What just landed in my inbox:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...ikes-next-month-in-dispute-over-pay-1.3230213



> Rail passengers could face disruption due to strike action next month in a dispute over pay while there is also potential for further industrial action at Bus Éireann, unions warned today.



Pay increase for what, exactly, I wonder.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

newirishman said:


> So you lived in all of those cities, for a prolonged period of time, and have used the public transport there for your daily work commute? And you are still saying public transport in Dublin is not too bad? I give up....



I lived in Australia for a year, London for a summer and have visited New York and Paris on a few occasions to know how the public transport, underground rail systems anyway, work.
Those systems are far superior to what Dublin has, but that doesn't mean that I agree that Dublin Bus is a poor service.
In any case I'm not here to defend public service transport over the likes of Ryanair.
The topic is about the perception people have of those that work in these transport companies. There has been no shortage of posters defending Ryanair whilst simultaneously putting down State transport companies.
Yet, all that has happened is that thousands of passengers have had flights cancelled. Add to that,


newirishman said:


> I am (unfortunately) flying a lot, also with Ryanair





newirishman said:


> and had my fair share of delays



It would appear that your experience of regular flying is at the very least an inconvenience to you. You don't appear to like flying, nor to be rotting away at a bus stop. Yet you are defending Ryanair but not Dublin Bus. Why? Was it because I mentioned "Meanwhile in the private sector...."?

That is my point. Those that work in both public and private transport companies, or public and private sectors, have a lot more in common with each other than is actually generally perceived, in my opinion.



newirishman said:


> According to the link you provided, Dublin Bus managed to operate *96.2%* of their scheduled services in Q1/2017.
> 
> What exactly is the point you are trying to make?





newirishman said:


> Despite those exceptional circumstances which are no ones fault but their own, Ryanair cancels 2% of their flights, i.e. *98%* are as usual.
> According to the link you provided, Dublin Bus managed to operate *96.2%* of their scheduled services in Q1/2017.



Yes, and the target was 95%. Is it their fault that they achieved their targets? Is it not sufficient for you to know that they achieved their targets?
But I would hazard a guess that most people either think the targets should be higher, or are skeptical about how the data is collated and published. But with Ryanair, the data will be taken as a given.
Even your link to the Irish Times,
I'm simply observing how people react to public service inefficiencies and very similar private sector inefficiencies.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

Purple said:


> British Airways fly from Dublin to Heathrow.



Fair point.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> I am using the current situation in Ryanair as an example to show how being sacked in the private sector is not as easy, or as common, as some would have you believe





TheBigShort said:


> I'm not here to bash Ryanair, I think its a great company, does its job very well. That is why also, I would be surprised if anyone was ever sacked over this.



https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0922/906745-ryanair/

_"O'Leary apologises to Ryanair staff over cancellation 'mess'" _

_Mr O’Leary has also pledged to meet all Employee Representative Councils over the coming weeks to discuss their grievances

In a broadcast to staff over an internal channel, he said management were sorry for visiting the crisis on their frontline teams, including pilots, cabin crew, check-in staff and customer service personnel, and praised their work in recent days.
_
This is how good companies operate.


----------



## Firefly (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Is that because the driver drives the bus slowly? Should he drive it as if he were driving a car? Do car drivers have to stop to drop off and take on passengers along the route? Could that have something to do with it?
> So now if public sector workers don't take a stand they are the bad guys too? A bit of damned if you do damned if you don't?



I think everyone here agrees that Ryanair made a huge screw-up and that management alone were to blame. One poster mentioned an issue this week in Navan and your next post to ask (in their defence it would seem) the questions above

Where are your similar questions to try to understand the issues with Ryanair?

As I said, everyone here agrees that Ryanair made a huge screw-up, but you seem to be the only one obsessed with dividing the public and private sector. It really is a case of:

Private Sector = Bad
Public Sector = Good


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

Firefly said:


> Where are your similar questions to try to understand the issues with Ryanair?



???
Those responses were in return to criticism of the length of time it takes a particular bus eireann journey!!!
That is the whole point. A public transport company makes a mess and there are typically calls and criticisms for sackings, accountability, the 'sheltered public sector' etc.
A private transport company makes a mess and again, it's the public sector that comes under focus?!?!
Why? Why is there such a tendency to attack public sector workers but barely a bad word to say about private sector worker's when they also make a mess?
Where are the calls for the accountability, the sackings? Why has nobody been sacked, or (thankfully, and as I predicted) unlikely to be sacked?
Is it because that private sector worker's aren't as vulnerable to sacking as is often made out?
Is it because inefficiencies also occur in the private sector, just like public sector?

Far from demonizing one worker over the other, I stand by both.
As I predicted, if you read through the posts, I have complimented Ryanair as a company, and I predicted that no-one was likely to be sacked following this mess.


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> ???
> Those responses were in return to criticism of the length of time it takes a particular bus eireann journey!!!
> That is the whole point. A public transport company makes a mess and there are typically calls and criticisms for sackings, accountability, the 'sheltered public sector' etc.



You clearly missed the point - which was that the Navan fiasco was ignored in the media apart from on one TD's twitter account. And that the more generalised mess of the 109 bus route has been tolerated for years without any media or public reaction.   

Those facts together contradict your thesis as above.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> You clearly missed the point - which was that the Navan fiasco was ignored in the media apart from on one TD's twitter account. And that the more generalised mess of the 109 bus route has been tolerated for years without any media or public reaction.
> 
> Those facts together contradict your thesis as above.



Blame the media then!
I'm sorry to break it to you but perhaps with everything else going on in the world and in the country, the 109 bus from Cavan to Dublin probably just got squeezed out of the editorial pages in favor of, oh I dunno, Trump and NK, Brexit, road deaths, etc.
I sent my son's Samsung galaxy tablet for repair. They said it would take ten working days, that was a month ago, call RTE!
I had a look at Peadars page alright, 10hrs ago this is what he had to say about the 109 bus before going on national airwaves

"_I will be on @TodaySOR today to discuss Ryanair, Leo's tax break for the wealthy, Michael D round 2 and the return of the Dáil."
_
Nothing.


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

Again you're repeatedly contradicting your own words, viz.,


TheBigShort said:


> ???
> That is the whole point. A public transport company makes a mess and there are typically calls and criticisms for sackings, accountability, the 'sheltered public sector' etc.



On Toibin, look a little harder. He tweeted on it earlier in the week and again today.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> Again you're repeatedly contradicting your own words, viz.,
> 
> 
> On Toibin, look a little harder. He tweeted on it earlier in the week and again today.



I really don't get where you are coming from with this.
I was talking in general terms, not in every specific instance of every inefficiency in the public sector. Nor would I expect every inefficiency in the private sector to be highlighted by the media.
The general point is if an inefficiency in the private sector is highlighted, there is a greater tendency, for some, not all, to revert attention back to inefficiencies in the public sector. 
In this topic, inefficiencies in Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus have come under scrutiny. Why? The topic was clearly about a inefficiencies in Ryanair (albeit it was done tongue in cheek).


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

Look at this comment, 



Firefly said:


> you seem to be the only one obsessed with dividing the public and private sector. It really is a case of:
> 
> Private Sector = Bad
> Public Sector = Good



Point to me where I have said the private sector is bad?


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> On Toibin, look a little harder. He tweeted on it earlier in the week and again today.



So it was raised in the media? Social media at least?


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> So it was raised in the media? Social media at least?


Good God this is getting really stupid. 

What prompted you earlier to check Peadar Toibin's twitter page?


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> Good God this is getting really stupid.
> 
> What prompted you earlier to check Peadar Toibin's twitter page?



Eh, you did?



T McGibney said:


> On Toibin, look a little harder.


----------



## T McGibney (22 Sep 2017)

You quoted a post of mine referring to his twitter account over 10 hours ago. Maybe you've had a few jars or something, but is your memory that bad?


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Sep 2017)

T McGibney said:


> You quoted a post of mine referring to his twitter account over 10 hours ago. Maybe you've had a few jars or something, but is your memory that bad?



True, I've had a few jars and true I quoted a post of yours over 10 hours ago. 
Is there a point to this?


----------



## AlbacoreA (24 Sep 2017)

I don't see the relevance of comparing of say a cancelled bus journey with that of a flight. The repercussions of the latter are far more likely to have a vastly greater impact on the passenger than the bus journey. 

Whats interesting about this dispute is that its a massive private company that has used its dominance in the industry to drive down cost, and with that the conditions of its staff. There's never been such a large group of staff in dispute with the company before. Usually they are divided and conquered before too many group up togther. I expect they'll compromise before MOL does.


----------



## AlbacoreA (24 Sep 2017)

Then again....

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ices-with-just-two-hours-notice-36163050.html


----------



## TheBigShort (24 Sep 2017)

AlbacoreA said:


> Then again....
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ices-with-just-two-hours-notice-36163050.html



This is disgraceful. Bus Eireann should be privatised. This would never happen in the private sector, and if it did, heads would roll. Whoever was responsible would definitely get the sack unlike in the public sector. I blame the trade unions.


----------



## qwerty5 (25 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> This is disgraceful. Bus Eireann should be privatised. This would never happen in the private sector, and if it did, heads would roll. Whoever was responsible would definitely get the sack unlike in the public sector. I blame the trade unions.



It must be great now having a great example in the private sector of a huge screw up. You can point to it as a reference for all future screw ups in the public sector from now to eternity.


----------



## Firefly (25 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> This is disgraceful. Bus Eireann should be privatised. This would never happen in the private sector, and if it did, heads would roll. Whoever was responsible would definitely get the sack unlike in the public sector. I blame the trade unions.



Couldn't agree more.


----------



## Firefly (25 Sep 2017)

qwerty5 said:


> It must be great now having a great example in the private sector of a huge screw up. You can point to it as a reference for all future screw ups in the public sector from now to eternity.



Nail on the head!


----------



## TheBigShort (25 Sep 2017)

qwerty5 said:


> It must be great now having a great example in the private sector of a huge screw up. You can point to it as a reference for all future screw ups in the public sector from now to eternity.



Except the point is it really doesn't matter if it's a private or public sector company. Screw ups happen all the time. It's just that when it happens in public sector the call is to privatise. Why? The private sector is as likely to screw up as the public sector.
Finger pointing the blame at trade unions is typical (see Fireflys support for my previous comment) even though Ryanair don't deal with trade unions.


----------



## TheBigShort (25 Sep 2017)

Firefly said:


> Nail on the head!



I have dozens of examples of private sector screw-ups. They are not headline making, but the occur on a regular basis. The latest is my son's Samsung tablet sent for repair. Ten working days I was told, over a month ago!
I doubt if anyone will be sacked (I certainly wouldn't want that), but if it was a public sector organization looking after this, this would typically be the reaction. You have confirmed so, with your support of my previous comment.


----------



## Firefly (25 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Except the point is it really doesn't matter if it's a private or public sector company. Screw ups happen all the time.


There's a big difference. In Ryanair's case the financial hit was borne by the company and it's shareholders. When fiascos happen in the public sector, (which occur way more frequently), it hits everyone's pocket in the form of taxes...we all have to pay.


----------



## Firefly (25 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> Finger pointing the blame at trade unions is typical (see Fireflys support for my previous comment) even though Ryanair don't deal with trade unions.



I was agreeing with your whole tread (which is rare) not just the bit about the unions specifically.


----------



## TheBigShort (25 Sep 2017)

Firefly said:


> There's a big difference. In Ryanair's case the financial hit was borne by the company and it's shareholders. When fiascos happen in the public sector, (which occur way more frequently), it hits everyone's pocket in the form of taxes...we all have to pay.



So what do you propose, abolish the public sector?


----------



## TheBigShort (25 Sep 2017)

Firefly said:


> In Ryanair's case the financial hit was borne by the company and it's shareholders. When fiascos happen in the public sector, (_which occur way more frequently)_,



See this is where I disagree. On a personal level, my direct interaction with public services is dwarfed by my direct interaction with private services. From my experience, screw ups occur in the private sector on a regular basis. Mostly probably due to inefficiency or poor management or poor training.


----------



## Firefly (25 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> So what do you propose, abolish the public sector?



Absolutely not.


----------



## qwerty5 (25 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> See this is where I disagree. On a personal level, my direct interaction with public services is dwarfed by my direct interaction with private services. From my experience, screw ups occur in the private sector on a regular basis. Mostly probably due to inefficiency or poor management or poor training.



True enough. But there are levels of inefficiency or poor management and training.

I deal with both the private sector and the public sector in my role in work. I'd say the levels of inefficiency and poor management are hugely disparate between both sectors.

In the private sector in even a half assed company there will be accountability and responsibility assigned and taken. A company might mess up today but it won't (or at least shouldn't) repeat the mistake again and again and again.
If it does repeat its major mistakes then people lose jobs or the company disappears.
I'm not sure the same can be said of the public sector departments.

Note: I'm not talking about screw ups of the scale of the RyanAir one or your Samsung Tablet one. More along the lines of departments not having a clue on how to run a project leading it costing them thousands more than it needs to if they could get their act together.


----------



## TheBigShort (25 Sep 2017)

qwerty5 said:


> In the private sector in even a half assed company there will be accountability and responsibility assigned and taken.



Not always the case at all. It is actually a lot rarer in my opinion. For sure, somebody will be put up front to apologise etc. But rarely would anybody face losing their job unless it was on account of gross misconduct or worse.



qwerty5 said:


> A company might mess up today but it won't (or at least shouldn't) repeat the mistake again and again and again.





qwerty5 said:


> If it does repeat its major mistakes then people lose jobs or the company disappears.




If it repeats the same mistake again and again yes, but industry is ever evolving. Mistakes do happen again and again, people learn from them, move on and prosper. That is the challenge and focus for Ryanair, not whose head should roll.

That is the point of this topic, screw-ups occur but people losing their jobs on account of screw-ups is a lot rarer than some would have you believe. Instead, companies will typically try learn from their mistakes and prosper.



qwerty5 said:


> I'm not sure the same can be said of the public sector departments.




That depends on the particular department or office


----------



## Purple (25 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> So what do you propose, abolish the public sector?


No, the solution is pay rises. That's usually what's needed...


----------



## Purple (25 Sep 2017)

TheBigShort said:


> That is the point of this topic, screw-ups occur but people losing their jobs on account of screw-ups is a lot rarer than some would have you believe. Instead, companies will typically try learn from their mistakes and prosper.


 I agree with that. 
It is the agility of the company and the willingness of the workforce to accept and then embrace change that determines the success of the organisation. 
I think the issue is the perception, real or imagined, that public sector bodies are less able to change and that's where the Unions come in; it is perceived that they need their pound of flesh with every change and are willing to damage the organisation and the customer (the public) in order to get it.


----------



## TheBigShort (25 Sep 2017)

Purple said:


> I think the issue is the perception, real or imagined, that public sector bodies are less able to change and that's where the Unions come in; it is perceived that they need their pound of flesh with every change and are willing to damage the organisation and the customer (the public) in order to get it.



My view, from experience, is that perception of trade union intransigence is over-played. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, and I have been critical of my own union on many occasions also.
But the example of what is happening at Ryanair, in the absence of unions, is reflective of issues occurring elsewhere in the workforce, particularly in the private sector where most employees do not have the support or protection that a trade union can provide.


----------



## Firefly (25 Sep 2017)

Purple said:


> I think the issue is the perception, real or imagined, that public sector bodies are less able to change and that's where the Unions come in; it is perceived that they need their pound of flesh with every change and are willing to damage the organisation and the customer (the public) in order to get it.


I think that's the perception alright.


----------



## Delboy (26 Sep 2017)

Bus Eireann fast becoming the Ryanair of the roads!
New rosters introduced and they're not going down well apparently

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...haos-amid-new-threat-of-strikes-36168796.html


> At least 16 bus services were cancelled yesterday due to a high number of drivers calling in sick, according to Bus Éireann...
> ..Bus Éireann also said that 12pc of drivers in the east of the country were calling in sick, which is a significant increase on the norm. A spokesperson said this was among a number of factors that meant trips in the east were not operating to schedule.


----------



## TheBigShort (26 Sep 2017)

Delboy said:


> Bus Eireann fast becoming the Ryanair of the roads!
> New rosters introduced and they're not going down well apparently



It's uncanny the similarities between BE and Ryanair regarding the staff rosters. Either the rosters are a breach of working terms or there has been no agreement with drivers/pilots.
The difference between the two disputes appears to be that the drivers are represented by a trade union standing their corner. The pilots are not. But the similarities in the issues are there to see, from the outside looking in at least.
The CEO of Ryanair at least accepted that the buck stops with him.
However, the comments section below the article gives an indicator of guess who the public mainly believe is at fault in BE? - and it's not management.
This is a great example of the public indoctrination that trade unions are bad for business because their BE driver members refuse to work new practices without agreement, but that high flying private companies are great even though their pilots refuse to work new practices without agreement.


----------



## Firefly (26 Sep 2017)

Delboy said:


> Bus Eireann fast becoming the Ryanair of the roads!
> New rosters introduced and they're not going down well apparently



I think in Ryanair's case it was a screw-up by management who have apologised and to be fair seem to have accommodated most passengers at this stage. In BE's case it was (from the article) due to workers calling in sick. Quite different. The former seems to be a one-off screw-up, the latter premeditated as usual.


----------



## TheBigShort (26 Sep 2017)

Firefly said:


> In BE's case it was (from the article) due to workers calling in sick. Quite different. The former seems to be a one-off screw-up, the latter premeditated as usual.



Calling in sick on foot of introducing new rosters without agreement, or with the intent of entering discussions.
The rosters are currently temporary, due to be introduced permanently on Oct 29. It would appear, again from the outside looking in, that if management agree to discussions about new rosters, then disruption will end.

O'leary alluded to a similar approach when the notion of pilots calling in sick was being speculated on


----------



## TheBigShort (26 Sep 2017)

Speculation or fact? If true, then my perception of Ryanair as being a great company will be shattered and I stand corrected about the threat of being sacked
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/con...k-we-are-out-to-screw-them-1.3234310?mode=amp


----------

