# Tenants leaving early 10mo/1year: Returning to Poland, how much of deposit to return?



## lyonsa3 (28 Nov 2007)

Tenants are moving out of my property this week. 

I got a phone call from them yesterday saying they are going back to Poland on sunday (giving me 5 days notice). They have been there for 10 months of a 1 year lease.

What I'd like to know is how much of the deposit should I be returning to them?  Also how to I go about checking if the ESB and gas bills are paid off? If I ring the gas or ESB will they tell the landlord what the last reading was paid for by the tenants?

Would I be entitled to hold a couple of hundred euro until I can confirm that all bills are cleared?


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## monkeyboy (28 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

You should hold the whole deposit.

If you are feeling charitable you can give them some or all back if you get a letting within the time frame required so as you are not out of pocket a month rent and after all bills are deemed clear.


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## Stifster (28 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

When is their rent paid up until?
I would hold the deposit until all bills are confirmed as cleared.


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## Caveat (28 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



monkeyboy said:


> You should hold the whole deposit.


 
I think this is a bit rough - if they were good tenants, bills clear and the place is in good condition.  Sometimes moves are unavoidable - I'm sure plenty of Irish people throughout the years renting in UK/US have had to return to Ireland suddenly for whatever reason.


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## monkeyboy (28 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

Good tenats or not they are gone and the OP has to start again.

As I said if you manage to get sorted quick enough to incur no costs, give them the deposit, but certainly hold it until the OP is safe from loss.
Also be sure the bills are coivered first. 

The fact that they are not Irish in no way makes a difference, Its not a charity this guy is running ! 5 days notice is not on, why should the OP risk being out of pocket !


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## lyonsa3 (28 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

cheers everybody for the advise.
rent is paid up until 10th dec.  I rang esb and gas bord. gas board told me that the meter was locked 1 month ago. total costs to get it unlocked is 180 euro.  esb told me that once i had a forwarding address in poland for the tenants, and i switched the account over to my name with the current reading i would not be charged any extra.
What gets me most is the 5 days notice. I now have to advertise quickly and who is going to be looking to get into a property over christmas.


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## webtax (28 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



lyonsa3 said:


> esb told me that once i had a *forwarding address in poland for the tenants*, and i switched the account over to my name with the current reading i would not be charged any extra



does this mean the esb will start sending bills to poland looking for the outstanding money?


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## lyonsa3 (28 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



webtax said:


> does this mean the esb will start sending bills to poland looking for the outstanding money?


 
Don't know. Thats what I was told by esb. 
When talking to esb I enquired about what would happen if any outstanding bills were unpaid and I was told that once the account was in there name (which it is) it will not fall back at our address.  Was also assured this would have no knock on effects to future tenants.


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## sam h (28 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



> I was told that once the account was in there name (which it is) it will not fall back at our address. Was also assured this would have no knock on effects to future tenants.


 
In my experience this is not the case.  You will NOT be liable but there will be a blackmark put on the property and the next tenant will have to pay a deposit...the size will depend on the amount that was outstanding.  This can be a very big inconvience for a new tenant who may not be expecting to find this extra money and then hold onto a "slip" of paper (the reciept) for the next however many years.  I had a tenant lost her reciept and had alot of difficultly getting her money back.

I would hold onto the deposit to ensure you don't end up out of pocket as they should be giving 30 days notice.....personally I'd refund it (or a portion)  if you managed to get tenants before the end of the 30 days.  However, don't forget to take damage into account first as that is what the deposit is really for.


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## infinity (28 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

I had a tenant that moved out this time last year (1st week in dec) with only a few days notice. 
There was a few hundred quid owed to the ESB but the bill was in his name. It didn't affect the the next tenants at all.I switched the bill into my name for a few weeks (with a zero balance).
The guy moved back to the Ukraine so I'm not sure how the ESB managed to collect their money. Bord Gais insist on a deposit for rented properties so they never let him run up any debts.

Get your ad on daft now. I got lucky and got 2 Polish couples about a week before Christmas. I know it seems like a bad time of year - but I was surpised by the number of calls I got this time last year.


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## Bronte (29 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

I'm interested in this locking of the gas, what does this mean?  Do they not have any gas?

OP - bills not in your name are not your responsibility so you don't have to worry about those.  If you have to 'unlock' the gas and pay for this unlocking I would deduct this from the deposit, plus any repairs, furthermore I would tell them you will forward the remainder of the deposit to them in Poland if you manage to let the property from the 10th December, less the costs of advertising and maybe something for the inconvenience (extra work involved for you, cleaning, vetting clients etc).


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## kkelliher (29 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

There is no such thing as a 1 year lease in law anymore as the PRTB legislation irrivoked the ability to have a lease for a specific period of time. There is by law an initial 6 months period followed by an automatic right to a total 4 year lease on certain grounds and conditions. Notice to leave is defined by length of stay and once correct notice is givin nothing you can do.


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## Stifster (29 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



kkelliher said:


> There is no such thing as a 1 year lease in law anymore as the PRTB legislation irrivoked the ability to have a lease for a specific period of time.


 
Not correct, landlords and tenants can agree to a fixed term. However a landlord can only terminate a fixed term tenancy if the tenant does not comply with their obligations, they can't for example terminate because they are going to sell. In addition the tenant does accrue the rights of an open ended tenancy so they become protected under the Act.



> There is by law an initial 6 months period followed by an automatic right to a total 4 year lease on certain grounds and conditions.


 
correct-ish - After 6 months the landlord can only terminate the tenancy on certain defined grounds.



> Notice to leave is defined by length of stay and once correct notice is givin nothing you can do.


 
A lease can only be terminated (after 6 months) for certain reasons, it is not simply about the length of notice.


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## Cityliving (29 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

Stifster,

You can terminate as a landlord for a variety of reasons.  The following is from the PRTB website:

Once a tenancy has lasted 6 months, the landlord will be able to terminate that tenancy during the following 3​​1/2 years only if any of the following apply;​
*3
4​*- the tenant does not comply with the obligations of the
tenancy
- the dwelling is no longer suited to the occupants
accommodation needs (e.g. overcrowded)
- *the landlord intends to sell the dwelling in the next 3 **months*
- the landlord requires the dwelling for own or family member occupation
- the landlord intends to refurbish the dwelling
- the landlord intends to change the business use of the​dwelling.
 
The correct notice must also be given obviously.


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## Armada (29 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

I think if a tenant agrees to pay ESB by direct debit the bond/deposit is not required.


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## ntab2 (29 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



Bronte said:


> furthermore I would tell them you will forward the remainder of the deposit to them in Poland if you manage to let the property from the 10th December, less the costs of advertising and maybe something for the inconvenience (extra work involved for you, cleaning, vetting clients etc).



This makes no sense. Why would you deduct the cost of advertising, cleaning and vetting clients? You'd have to do the same thing in two months anyway! That's just unjustifiable greed.


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## Stifster (29 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



Cityliving said:


> Stifster,
> 
> You can terminate as a landlord for a variety of reasons.  The following is from the PRTB website:
> 
> ...



I know, the implication of the post that i replied to was that you only had to give the correct notice. That is not correct.


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## Caveat (29 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



ntab2 said:


> This makes no sense. Why would you deduct the cost of advertising, cleaning and vetting clients? You'd have to do the same thing in two months anyway! That's just unjustifiable greed.


 
I agree - it's this kind of attitude that gives landlords a bad name.

Yes, they broke the terms of the lease - but as mentioned it is quite possible the OP would be have been in the same position two months later anyway. If they were good tenants and the OP is not stung with any bills/repairs etc etc, I don't really think it's a big deal.

Of course it's a business not a charity but in other businesses there are bad debts/slow payers/difficult customers etc

...it happens.


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## dereko1969 (30 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



Caveat said:


> I agree - it's this kind of attitude that gives landlords a bad name.
> 
> Yes, they broke the terms of the lease - but as mentioned it is quite possible the OP would be have been in the same position two months later anyway. If they were good tenants and the OP is not stung with any bills/repairs etc etc, I don't really think it's a big deal.
> 
> ...


totally agree, also while the OP states the tenants gave 5 days notice that is not correct, they actually gave 15 (december 10th next rent day) which still doesn't excuse them not giving the full notice, but it's not quite as bad as made out. i wonder if it's to do with the time of year rather than anything else that's annoying the OP.


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## ntab2 (30 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



dereko1969 said:


> totally agree, also while the OP states the tenants gave 5 days notice that is not correct, they actually gave 15 (december 10th next rent day) which still doesn't excuse them not giving the full notice, but it's not quite as bad as made out. i wonder if it's to do with the time of year rather than anything else that's annoying the OP.



I didn't even cop that - in fairness, that gives the landlord an advantage - ten days where the apartment is empty so he has time to fix it up for the new tenants and show it while it's empty. It's likely he could even rent it out early.

Sure it's not the full month but it's not five days notice either...


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## lyonsa3 (30 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

Tenants are moving out after 5 days notice.  I stated 5 days notice as tenants have requested the rent they overpaid to be refunded with the deposit.


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## minion (30 Nov 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

I agree with the posters who said to Post anything back to them that you are not out of pocket by.

Or you could just give them a break and think what you would have felt like in their situation.


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## Stifster (1 Dec 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



lyonsa3 said:


> Tenants are moving out after 5 days notice.  I stated 5 days notice as tenants have requested the rent they overpaid to be refunded with the deposit.



I would tell them thet by law they have to give you at least 28 days and if you get someone in before that period expires you will refund them the "overpayment" otherwise you are entitled to keep it.


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## Bronte (7 Dec 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

Sorry guys, of course you don't deduct the advertising and vetting costs which you would incur anyway. I was just thinking of all the costs of changeover of tenant's when I was typing, but you do deduct cleaning unless if it's left as it was originally.


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## z106 (7 Dec 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



Bronte said:


> Sorry guys, of course you don't deduct the advertising and vetting costs which you would incur anyway. I was just thinking of all the costs of changeover of tenant's when I was typing, but you do deduct cleaning unless if it's left as it was originally.


 
I actually think it's unfair to deduct any cleaning charges.
PErsonally I look on cleaning as one iof those inevitable charges that come with the territory.


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## xman (8 Dec 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

Tenants are being VERY cheeky breaking their lease and expecting both their deposit and rent in advance paid back.

In this case I would tell the tenants that they are responsible for paying the rent on the property for the term of the lease. I would keep their deposit and their rent in advance. If they want to break the lease they should advertise for replacement tenants (at their own expense) to complete the term of the lease and put down a deposit - and only then should you refund the deposit to the lease breaking tenants. 

Just like the landlord can't jack up the rent in the middle of a lease, the tenants shouldn't be able to walk away from it either. It's a two way street.


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## whizzbang (8 Dec 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*

To me it sounds like they should pay the notice they didn't serve. So if they had given you 28 days notice then they get their full deposit back (minus gany bills or damages) if they only give 5 days notice, then they still owe you the money for the other 23 days. If you manage to get someone else to rent the place before the 28 days notice are up you can refund them any difference if you are feeling kind.

Its a contract, and if they broke it they can't expect to get money back for notice not served. Much the same way that I would be expecting money back if my landlord kicked me out wihtout the proper notice. Whoever breaks the contract pays as far as I am concerned.


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## gearoidmm (8 Dec 2007)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



Cityliving said:


> Stifster,
> 
> You can terminate as a landlord for a variety of reasons.  The following is from the PRTB website:
> 
> ...



This comes up over and over again.  The terms of the PRTB act do not supersede a lease.  The landlord is not entitled to break a signed lease for the above reasons.  A lease is a binding contract on both parties.  The above applies in the absence of a lease and is designed to protect tenants, not to give the right to the landord to throw someone out just cause his sister or brother need a gaffe


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## Stifster (30 Jan 2008)

*Re: Tenants leaving early*



gearoidmm said:


> This comes up over and over again. The terms of the PRTB act do not supersede a lease. The landlord is not entitled to break a signed lease for the above reasons. A lease is a binding contract on both parties. The above applies in the absence of a lease and is designed to protect tenants, not to give the right to the landord to throw someone out just cause his sister or brother need a gaffe


 
I just came across this now and would like to point out the relevant section of the Act.



> *Application of Act. **3.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), **this Act applies to every dwelling, the*
> *subject of a tenancy (including a tenancy created before the passing of*
> *this Act).*
> (2) Subject to _section 4(2), _this Act does not apply to any of the
> ...





> its determination in the matter.
> ​​​


​​​


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## aircobra19 (30 Jan 2008)

*Re: Tenants leaving early 10mo/1year: Returning to Poland, how much of deposit to ret*

Stifster I'm a bit slow this morning.How does that apply in this case?


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## Marie (30 Jan 2008)

*Tenants leaving early 10mo/1year: Returning to Poland, how much of deposit to ret*

If a tenant whose tenancy agreement is for a month's notice on either side (which is the most usual arrangement) has - for practical, real-life reasons - to terminate the tenancy before the end of the month they have paid for in advance then they forfeit the rest of the month's rent.

However a landlord is definitely NOT entitled to keep the deposit........which I assume is a further whole month's rent.  You will be breaking every law in the book by doing so and if they are the usual East European migrant-worker types with PhD's in astrophysics and law and speaking seven languages fluently they will (hopefully) pursue you through the European Community processes for return of their appropriated money.


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## sadie (30 Jan 2008)

*Re: Tenants leaving early 10mo/1year: Returning to Poland, how much of deposit to ret*

What I find scary is that someone who doesn't even know how to check if the utility bills have been paid or not, has set themselves up as a landlord. This is what tenants are up against - entering into business agreements with such inexperienced individuals and handing over large sums of money in advance. There should be some kind of code of conduct that landlords need to have signed before they can operate. Otherwise you end up with people holding back lumps of the deposit for a bit of scuffed skirting board, (oh and don't forget to include the broken cup from that Heatons dinner service), basically because they might be landed with having to pay their own mortgage for a month or two. This is why I would always prefer to rent from an agency.


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## Marie (31 Jan 2008)

*Tenants leaving early 10mo/1year: Returning to Poland, how much of deposit to ret*

Deposit is for DAMAGE or to cover in the event of DOING A MOONLIGHT FLIT!  It is NOT to pay to have your buy-to-let professionally cleaned, or pay the bin-men or redecorate or in any other shape, sense or form tamper with.  It is an in-hand insurance contingency against actual damage, e.g. broken windows or kicked-in doors or graffiti.  It is NOT against 'wear-and-tear' which occurs with use of the property.

It is theft to appropriate a deposit to cover a landlord's expenses.


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