# HMV rip-offs ?



## Doobeedobedo (20 Aug 2003)

Some one sent me this on an e-mail this morning.

I've had problems with HMV in the past and definitely won't be using them again after this:

----------------------------

Wednesday, 13 August 2003



Mr. John Taylor
Marketing Manager
HMV U.K.
Film House
142 Wardour Street
London  W1F 8LN
U.K.

Dear Mr. Taylor,

I have been a regular customer of HMV in Ireland since I moved to Dublin in 1999.  I am an avid collector of films on both video and DVD and probably spend on average €80 per month toward my collection.  My partner is a very aggressive collector of music, spending around €200 per month on music. I would estimate that we give 80% of our music and movie-buying business to HMV.

I am writing to you today to let you know that we will no longer be giving our custom to HMV.  This past weekend we were shopping on Grafton Street in Dublin.  We were drawn into the HMV shop by the large signs posted in your window advertising a buy one, get one free promotion you are currently running on DVDs.  I had intended to purchase a film that day to add to my collection and was enticed by the offer.

When we started looking at the films that were part of your promotion we were shocked to see the prices they were being sold for – ranging from €29.99 to €44.99.  Since I am a regular buyer of DVDs I have a good idea of what the going prices are for DVDs and was instantly aware of the blatant underhandedness of your so-called promotion.  It was obvious that the prices had been inflated to compensate for the “free” DVD.  Your promotion was only intended to sell your customer a second DVD that they may or may not have wanted under the guise that they would be saving money by getting a “free” DVD.

I have attached a copy of a spreadsheet comparing the prices of eight of your promotional titles with that of five of your competitors and the HMV on-line shop.  I found these prices myself on the Internet and by ringing my local shops for quotes.  They are all the exact same films, special editions etc., and I obtained the prices all on the same day.  The Internet comparisons even include the costs for shipping and handling.

As you can see from my brief research your promotion is no promotion at all and in some cases two titles could be purchased from your competitors at their full price and still be cheaper than one of your titles at your inflated “promotional” prices.  I am not a business minded person and I don’t know much about marketing but your attempt at fooling your customers is not very well disguised.

My partner and I have taken such offence to your insult to our intelligence and your attempt at greedily trying to trick us out of our hard-earned money that we will no longer give HMV our business.  He and I work for companies with several 20-somethings on staff who are avid consumers of movies, music and games. We have brought this discovery to their attention and have shared the research with them.  A few have already passed on the information to their friends as well.

Perhaps HMV is not aware of the current global economic climate.  Maybe HMV thinks that consumers are making money hand over fist and spending it just as frivolously.  It is conceivable that HMV is not aware that our Tanaiste Mary Harney is impressing upon us how important it is to compare prices and shop around due to companies like yours who are more interested in ripping us off with underhanded marketing ploys than giving us a fair price and good value.

People in Ireland are very aware of fair and unfair prices, Mr. Taylor.  Every week there are stories of businesses closing down and hundreds of people losing their jobs.  The cost of living in Ireland is one of the highest in the European Union.  We are aware more than ever of how much things cost and where we want our money to go.

Is it because you are an entertainment-oriented company that you feel your customers will tolerate overpriced products and marketing manipulation?  Is HMV aware of the growing popularity of Internet based companies who are happy to give customers fair pricing, value and service?  Maybe HMV should spend less time thinking up ways to trick customers into spending more and figure out a more respectable and respectful way of gaining and keeping customers.

I am one customer that your little trick did not work on, Mr. Taylor.  Not only did you not sell me that extra DVD that I had no intention of buying but you didn’t sell me the DVD that I had intended to buy AND you have lost my partner’s and my business and respect indefinitely.  The people I work with, all of my friends and anyone any of them pass this information to will think twice before giving HMV their business as well.  I call it my “piss one cautious customer off, lose ten customers free” promotion!

Sincerely,



Kelley Miller
Dublin, Ireland


Cc:  Simon Douglas, HMV Operations Manager; Breffni O’Malley, The Irish Times; Bill Tyson, Irish Independent; Tanaiste, Mary Harney
---------------------------


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## Ham Slicer (20 Aug 2003)

*HMV*

Good letter, but I don't bother going into record shops even for a browse.

You might get the odd bargain but CDWOW HK will invaribly sell most products at a discount to high street stores.


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## uptheharps (20 Aug 2003)

*HMV*

Good Letter - I will certainly use HMV in only extreme circumstances going forward! One point I would like to draw to others' attention - I used cdwow recently and received a copy control version of a recently released CD which would not play on my car cd-player. I contacted cdwow about this and they said that there were aware of the problem but couldn't warn users as the record company in question forbade it (obviously detrimental to it's sales!)


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (20 Aug 2003)

*.*

Well if you only wanted to play the CD on your car CD player, the disk is useless to you. If people started sending them back, the record company might change it's tune.


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## rainyday (20 Aug 2003)

*Re: .*

AFAIK, the copy protection issue is not related to the fact that it came from CD-WOW - It is very likely that the same CD purchased on the high street will have the came copy-protection/car CD player issue.


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## ClubMan (20 Aug 2003)

*Re: .*

*uptheharps*

Another _eircom League of Ireland_ supporter I presume?!


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## Dr Moriarty (20 Aug 2003)

*Re: .*

Jaysus, ClubMan, that oul' jetlag definitely agrees with you...!


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## ClubMan (20 Aug 2003)

*Re: .*

Eh?


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## uptheharps (20 Aug 2003)

*HMV*

Rainyday,

I'm not sure if the CD supplied on CDWOW is exactly the same as the version sold in the shops. The guy from CDWOW said that these copy control CDs may not be playable in certain car stereos, PCs and older hi fi systems.....surely this wouldn't happen if I decided to pay through the nose in HMV for the same cd;-). I think it may be an attempt by the records to guard against piraters on the web!

Clubman,

League of Ireland is where it's at....


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## rainyday (20 Aug 2003)

*Re: HMV*



> surely this wouldn't happen if I decided to pay through the nose in HMV for the same cd;-). I think it may be an attempt by the records to guard against piraters on the web!




I really don't think it's anything to do with 'pirates on the web' - it's to do with 'pirates' in general. I saw some UK TV consumer show with similar complaints from people who had purchased CD's in the shops & had similar problems. 

I doubt if the record companies are manufacturing two versions of the CD - one for sale online & one for sale in the shops.


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## ClubMan (20 Aug 2003)

*Re: HMV*

*League of Ireland is where it's at....*

Fair play. Maybe next season I'll be watching _Bohs_ play _Harps_ again - hopefully because you get promotion rather than the unthinkable! :eek


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## digitari (21 Aug 2003)

*No prob*

I have bought over 1000 Euro worth of CDs and DVDs from CDWOW, I am a film and music fanatic (my wife thiks i'm insane ), I never once have had a problem with them, recently I was in the UK, HMV wanted 24.99 sterling for 'Fight Club' , I got the exact same one for 15Eur on cdwow... saving me 17 Euro, enough to buy another DVD !


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## Ham Slicer (21 Aug 2003)

*CDWOW*

I agree.  A friend of mine is more of a lunatic than a fanatic.  She's compiled a collection of c80 DVDs and 150 CDs almost all from CDWOW.

Sometimes the cases are broken, but CDWOW will replace the case upon request.

Delivery is always prompt and efficient.


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## daltonr (21 Aug 2003)

*Re: HMV*



> surely this wouldn't happen if I decided to pay through the nose in HMV for the same cd;-). I think it may be an attempt by the records to guard against piraters on the web!



The CD's you buy in the Stores are identical to the ones you buy online.  Not all new CDs are copy protected but more and more are.  If you want some examples, Natalie Imbruglia's is, and I think Shakira's is. Whether you buy in store or not.

CDWow will accept the CD back no questions asked if you are unhappy with buying a copy protected CD.

In stores the CD itself must contain a warning that it is copy proctected, but a loophole means online vendors don't have to.  My understanding (open to correction) is that CDWow want to carry the warning but the publishers won't allow them.  I don't know if this is true.

The protection is intended to stop people copying the CD's using PCs.  But due to the way Car Players work (copying chunks of the song into memory, to avoid the skips of playing straight from the disk - cars bounce around alot, car players fall foul of the protection too).

Incidently the protection doesn't work in many cases.  
You may find that although you can't play the CD, you can in fact turn it into MP3s and then burn a new CD, which will play just fine in your car or anywhere else.

This by the way is legal if you own the original CD, so it appears this copy protection will do little more than educate more and more people on how to create MP3s.

Irony???

Incidently Rod Stewart has said he doesn't mind people copying and downloading his songs.  His record company disagrees.

-Rd


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## Delboy (21 Aug 2003)

*HMV*

a guy I work with just bought Nickelbacks album for his daughter (at least that's who he claims its for !!!!!!)

In HMV Henry St, it was priced at 23.99
In Virgin Henry St, it was priced at 9.99

He even went into the stores twice to double check they were the same album etc. That's soem price difference

Clubman - the real drama in the League of ireland will take place tonight in Tolka. The might of Sligo Rovers face shelbourne in the cup replay - pray for us .... :b


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## tedd (21 Aug 2003)

*Re: HMV*

That is a shocking price difference! I hope he's writing a letter too!! I have often noticed a difference of one or two euros among the various vendors along Grafton Street but 14 euros is enough to make you really shop around!


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## tedd (21 Aug 2003)

*Re: HMV*

I have emailed the customer service website at HMV to ask them to contribute to this discussion. I would be interested to hear their comments.


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## rainyday (21 Aug 2003)

*Re: HMV*

Hi Folks - Price differences are a good thing, not a bad thing. Be prepared to shop around to find the best price.

The alternative to having no price differences is price harmonisation, where all prices are the same - Inevitably, the 'same' prices tend to converge at the upper end of the spectrum.

Be careful what you wish for.


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## tedd (21 Aug 2003)

*Re: HMV*

Yes I accept the principle of competition, too, Rainyday. I would love to have time to shop around for everything and get the best deals, but that is just not practical. I am willing to sometimes pay over the odds if the retailer provides a special service or offers good value in general because it's more time-efficient for me.

That is why the reputation of a retailer is important to me. Any company with any sense should see that the reputation of their company or brand is one of their most valuable assets. Companies who engage in practices like those described damage their brand, IMHO. This has a knock-on effect on their long-term repeat business. 

tedd


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## daltonr (25 Aug 2003)

*Re: HMV*

Well the letter hasn't taken effect yet.  The prices were still on the silly side of stupid at the weekend.

Average price of DVD's in HMV Henry St, €30++++
a couple of doors down the road at Virgin average price €15.

HMV had a buy one get one free, so average price $15+++++
Virgin had a 3 for €30 offer.

Tower Records in Easons seemed to be on the high side as well.  "A Hard Days Night" was €35, bought it for €14.50 in Golden Disks in Liffey Valley.

Huge differences.

-Rd


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## CouldntGetAUsername (28 Aug 2003)

*GAME/EB same as HMV on price*

While we're at it (price comparisons that is) GAME\Electronic Boutique is one of the most expensive places to buy vidoe games at least €5 more expensive even in games like the platinum series. Dixons have a much more limited selection but are much cheaper and apart from online vendors Gamesworld have some of the best prices.

CGAN


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## Alan Moore (28 Aug 2003)

*HMV aren't so bad.....*

Really depends on what you are buying. In the majority of cases buying online is cheaper ( as it should be as you are probably dealing with a warehouse in the middle of nowhere rather than a showroom on Grafton Street ).

But now and again HMV have their moments. E.G Recently saw the Sopranos Various Complete Series for 64.99 euro compared to 48.99 STG on www.play.com.

Then there are some CD's you can't buy on Play or CD Wow e.g the excellent Setlist Album by the Frames.

In short, my own view is that if you are buying something thats not part of a sale in either HMV or Virgin you would be better off buying on the internet. Unless of course its not available on the net.


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## Gamer (28 Aug 2003)

*Games*

Play.com also do video games


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## endowed (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: HMV    -   s ?*

Just as a matter of interest, the _Kelley Miller_ email (outlined in the first post of this thread) and follow-up to same gets a mention in today's _Indo_ (registration required).


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## DT (29 Aug 2003)

*hmv*

One thing that really p*sses me off about HMV is; when they have a sale on, they have an area of the shop with their "sale" CD's which is separate from their "regular" (non-sale) CD's.  On a number of occasions when I've been looking for particular CD's I've found the SAME CD's in both sections priced at DIFFERENT prices!!  It's bloody stupid.  You have CD's on sale in the shop for two completely different prices - and substantially different at that!  The idea that HMV are happy to charge you more than you need to pay for a CD just because you didn't spot the cheaper one  leaves a bitter taste in this customer's mouth and certainly devalues the "HMV brand" (as Tedd has already stated).  

I'm also reminded of another HMV story.  A few years back (during the month of December) HMV produced free catalogues advertising suggested Christmas gifts from their store.  In the booklet there were a number of money off vouchers.  I got one of these catalogues somewhere, I'm not sure exactly where, it may have come through my letterbox!  Anyway, I thought the vouchers were handy and I thought to myself - "I must bring them with me next time I'm going to HMV".

Of course, the next time I went to HMV I forgot to bring the vouchers!  It was while I was at the counter paying for a CD that I noticed a big pile of HMV catalogues sitting in front of me. *Ding*  I remembered the vouchers!!  I picked up a catalogue and went to the vouchers page and asked the girl behind the counter if I could use one of the vouchers to get £1 off the £15 priced CD I had just handed over my money for.  The girl refused and said something to the effect that the vouchers were for people who had read the catalogue before they made their purchases!!  I told her that I had one of the catalogues at home and that I had read it, and that's how I knew about the vouchers.  With a face on her, she told me that she'd have to ask her manager if I could have a pound back in exchange for the voucher.  I said, "ok, ask your manager".   She phoned up her manager and got permission to do it!  And so I got my pound back!

The moral of the story... the old adage "let the buyer beware" is particularly true when it comes to HMV!


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## daltonr (29 Aug 2003)

*Re: hmv*



> The girl refused and said something to the effect that the vouchers were for people who had read the catalogue before they made their purchases!!



You should have told her you were illiterate.

-Rd


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## DT (30 Aug 2003)

*lol*

:lol


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## Kilteragh (18 Sep 2003)

*Re: lol*

Have to agree about the excellent value of CDwow.

By the way if you paste this link into your browser:

[broken link removed]

in conjunction with this offer: www.cdwow.com/trustcard

you will get a further stg£2.50 off DVDs and stg£2.00 of CDs. For further great offers like these keep an eye on:

www.dvd.reviewer.co.uk/fo...?Forum=223

I recently got the Region 3 DVD of Chicago for 7.42 Euro with these offers, wheares the cheapest I've seen in it (Region 2 admittedly - but practically the same) in the shops here is at Tesco for 22.99 Euro.


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## Jamie and his magic torch (18 Sep 2003)

*HMV*

Always felt HMV was a rip off until I bought a CD rack from the HMV branch on Grafton street.  The rack which cost me £20.00 was boxed.  I brought it home and opened it to find 6 Macy Grey CD's inside.  Obviously they were put there by a lazy member of staff who should have taken them back to the stock room or something.  Anyway to cut a long story short and I am not proud of this I brought back each individual CD and swapped it for something I liked.  In some cases I even received a cash refund for the difference.


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## tedd (18 Sep 2003)

*Re: HMV*

Hmmm...guess that explains why they have to charge so much to make a profit.


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## piggy (18 Sep 2003)

*Re: HMV*

With all due respect, I don't think Jamie's story explains that at all Tedd. 

What Jamie...did was obviously not the most admirable thing in the world to do...as he admits himself, but I doubt it counts for HMV hiking up their prices, does it? HMV in particular charge ridiculously high prices for CD's and although the morally right thing to do might have been to bring the CD's back, the onus is on the retailer not to do something so stupd in the first place.

Piggy.


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## tedd (19 Sep 2003)

*Re: HMV*

Obviously Jamie is not solely responsible for HMV's pricing structure!! And I don't mean to be offensive to him in any way, and the following remarks are not directed at him.

I do think it is important to point out that fraud and theft have a *real* cost to companies and that translates into a *real* increase in cost to consumers. Whether the loss of stock occurs from theft, fraud or simply laziness by employees (as is speculated to be the case here and as mentioned in another context  ) these actions have a definite effect on the profitability of a business. A unprofitable business will either increase prices or close down. We all start whinging when prices go up or jobs are lost, but our everyday actions can have a direct impact on those events. 

It's easy to think a big company like HMV won't miss a few CDs but multiply that thought by even one hundred people a week throughout their business and you are talking about a lot of money.

tedd


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## daltonr (19 Sep 2003)

*Re: HMV*



> It's easy to think a big company like HMV won't miss a few CDs but multiply that thought by even one hundred people a week throughout their business and you are talking about a lot of money.



A problem which all high street retailers face, and yet some can sell CD's for half or even less than half the price that HMV charges.  No matter how you slice it there is no justification for HMV's prices.  

Is what Jamie did Theft or Fraud?  Have you ever heard the phrase "Check your change, errors can not be corrected later".  That works both ways.  If the shop undercharges or gives you too much, that's their problem.  You haven't broken the law.  (Some legal brain can correct me on this if I'm wrong).  

It should IMHO be considered no greater theft than doubling the price of merchandise and then claiming to have a 2 for 1 promotion.  The "thefts" are in fact Errors by the people being stolen from.  HMV's error to give away free CD's, and customers errors for not shopping around.

You can be altruistic and correct a shop that makes a mistake, but I see no obligation to.  If the shop behaved decently, offered good value, and didn't insult the intelligence of it's customers then I would give back the CD's.  But there is no way I would even consider doing so if the shop was HMV.

Of course I won't be stumbling across any free CD's in HMV boxes, because like a lot of people, I won't be going back.

-Rd


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## Elcato (19 Sep 2003)

*Re: HMV*

Is Rainyday on holidays ?


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## rainyday (19 Sep 2003)

*Re: HMV*

I haven't gone away, you know, Elcato   but I'm not going to rise to your troll.


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## tedd (20 Sep 2003)

*Re: HMV*



> Is what Jamie did Theft or Fraud?



Just so my comments are entirely clear may I draw your attention to my opening remarks:



> Obviously Jamie is not solely responsible for HMV's pricing structure!! And I don't mean to be offensive to him in any way, and the *following remarks are not directed at him*.



Irrespective of how many retailers face the sort of problems referred to, it impacts on the prices we all pay for our goods...that is, those of us who pay for our goods


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## daltonr (22 Sep 2003)

*Re: HMV*



> We all start whinging when prices go up or jobs are lost,



this thread is about the huge price difference between HMV and "almost" every other seller of DVD's CD's etc.



> but our everyday actions can have a direct impact on those events.



Given the price difference between HMV and others (100%) this just doesn't hold up.  HMV and Virgin on Henry St.  Are practically next door to each other.  I don't believe that the 100% price difference is due to the actions of the general public.

Nobody is saying that DVD's cost too much in general.  the fact that they may be able to knock off a euro or two if they could stamp out shoplifting is not the issue.

The issue is that HMV is misleading the public when they claim to have a 2 for 1 sale.  HMV is the crook in this instance.

-Rd


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## CouldntGetAUsername (22 Sep 2003)

*Killteragh's link to CDWOW*

Hey Killteragh, do you get a commission if people buy stuff using the affiliate link (the first CDWOW link) you posted above? And if so shouldn't you have informed us?

If not then I apologise for being paranoid.

CGAN.


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## garrettod (24 Sep 2003)

*...*

Hi,

With very odd exception, the net is the place to buy new games, cds, dvds, computer & camera parts etc

Say Good Bye to Rip Off Ireland !

regards

G>


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## Kilteragh (24 Sep 2003)

*Re: ...*

CGAN,

I most certainly don't although I wish I did :$  :$  and If I did then I'd be pushing it a hell of a lot harder

As I said - keep an eye on the DVD.reviewer site for other offers which pop up from time to time

Just trying to help out my fellow CD / DVD buyers........


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## daltonr (13 Oct 2003)

*Re: ...*

Decided to check out HMV at the weekend.

The "2 for 1" offer has ended.  And surprise surprise DVD's appear to have dropped in price to roughly match other shops.  The price cut is being hailed as a Sale.

Still, the place was fairly busy so, it's hard to argue with their tactics.  They obviously know their customer.

-Rd


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## davido (14 Oct 2003)

*Golden Discs*

I recently bought a three disk DVD set in Golden Disc for €35.  I went in to their store in St. Stephen's Green the other day and I saw the DVD's being sold seperately for €19 each.  

This kind of crap is obviously not limited to HMV.

("Family Guy" DVD's by the way.  Hilarious, no matter what the price !!)


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## daltonr (15 Oct 2003)

*Re: Golden Discs*

Davido, could you check something....

I may be wrong, but I think you'll find the 3 dvd box was season 3.

The dvd's being sold separately were probably seasons 1 and 2.

If they are trying to sell the season 3 disks separately for that price then they should be taken out and shot.  

-Rd


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## davido (15 Oct 2003)

*Re: Golden Discs*

Before anybody jumps to any conclusions about Golden Discs, I had better check because you may be right daltonr.


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## garrettod (15 Oct 2003)

*...*

Hi,

Why you good people are even buying anything from the likes of HMV / Virgin / Golden Discs etc is beyond me - 

the chances are it will be more easily available, at a cheaper price or with additional extras, on the net !

I only ever go into the likes of Golden Discs now to check a few of their products to see if they have been priced in error, while killing time !

Regards

G>


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## daltonr (15 Oct 2003)

*Re: ...*



> the chances are it will be more easily available, at a cheaper price or with additional extras, on the net !<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>
> 
> 
> Actually season 3 of Family Guy could probably be bought cheaper.  I think you can save about €10.
> ...


<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->


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