# Effect of budget .



## thedaras (8 Apr 2009)

Now that FF have taken another huge chunk of my income the result will be that I must reign in my spending ,even more.
There are a lot of people in my situation and I think this will lead to more job losses as the spare money we had left over is now gone.

After, morgage (fixed rate,so no gain from current cuts) ,car,insurance,car tax ,petrol,house insurance,life insurance,car loan,petrol, health insurance,food,tv licence,esb,gas,phone registration fees,school books ,uniforms ,confirmation,communion,birthdays and anything else which I cant think of right now, there was not a lot of cash left and now FF have taken that.

Something has to go,so where do I cut back? I would have gone for a meal once a month or it may have been a takeaway.

I would have brought the kids to the cinema the odd time and bought the teenager new clothes,had the odd visit to the hairdressers etc,and I would have gone on holidays once a year with the family so these things will now not happen,and  a lot of people in my situation will do the same hence a lot of job losses hence more on the dole hence more tax cuts for us.

We are the ones that pay for the public sector and now we have to once again pay for the lack of balls that FF have to reform the public sector.

I think people should be angry and I believe that a lot will be when they open their wage packets in May.

Of course people will say well you should count your blessings,however FF are doing their best to take the "blessings",which have taken a lot of time and hard work to build up.They made a mess of things and as usual its the middle class whom are the heart and lungs of society that once again have to pay for their mismanagement.

Its hard to bother keep going....


----------



## Ron Burgundy (8 Apr 2009)

Grow long hair and if you are a man grow a beard.

Wear underwear inside out to cut down on washing and electricity.

Have a row with your family to cut down on buying presents and going to pointless parties.

If you have children tell them santa lost his job in the budget and there will be no delivery.

Collect stray dogs and sell them to the local chinese.

Go for a meal and place your own brought fly in your soup towards the end and refuse to pay.

Fake your own death with a canoe and live a not very secert life in your own house while traveling to Panama to purchase a hotel.


----------



## ninsaga (8 Apr 2009)

How many of the above list have you ticked off already Ron


----------



## Mel (8 Apr 2009)

At the risk of sounding like a complete nutcase... my life has been a lot better since I started counting my blessings. I'm far far worse off than 5 years ago financially and healthwise, but my happiness has increased at least 3-fold. I put this down to positive thinking, helped partly by this philosophy - http://www.thesecret.tv/ 
I haven't attracted millions, but then I haven't actually tried: money isn't the most important thing in my life, my family is. I could live in a cardboard box tomorrow and I'd still have them. 
<I'll go keep a low profile now for the rest of the week.>


----------



## Ron Burgundy (8 Apr 2009)

I'm just off to buy my canoe now.


----------



## Westbound (8 Apr 2009)

Yes - my first reaction on seeing the hit was 'where can I cut spending'. I thought that as well as 'the hit' we would have seen incentives to spend. Some are saying the increased DIRT and CGT is an incentive not to save, but I hardly think that will work.

I am willing to bear it (but not grin), but we really will need to see some improvement. My big fear is that VAT receipts will take a big loss now. Spare cash is gone. But hey ho - what can you do, eh?


----------



## thedaras (8 Apr 2009)

Westbound said:


> Yes - my first reaction on seeing the hit was 'where can I cut spending'. I thought that as well as 'the hit' we would have seen incentives to spend. Some are saying the increased DIRT and CGT is an incentive not to save, but I hardly think that will work.
> 
> I am willing to bear it (but not grin), but we really will need to see some improvement. My big fear is that VAT receipts will take a big loss now. Spare cash is gone. But hey ho - what can you do, eh?


 
Problem is there is no disposable income left to spend,and then we will have more in December.
What can we do? Out FF...they caused it they should suffer the consequences..


----------



## Ron Burgundy (8 Apr 2009)

*After, morgage (fixed rate,so no gain from current cuts) ,car,insurance,car tax ,petrol,house insurance,life insurance,car loan,petrol, health insurance,food,tv licence,esb,gas,phone registration fees,school books ,uniforms ,confirmation,communion,birthdays and anything else which I cant think of right now, there was not a lot of cash left and now FF have taken that.*

Not to stand up for them. But which of the above did they cause....your car loan ?? Phone fees ??? increase in car insurance ??? conformation, communion ???

We choose how we spend our money. If we get a big car loan or a fixed mortgage it is *our* fault. We choose to have big birthdays, pointless parties and eh the odd trip to the hairdressers.

I grew up with nothing, none of the above and am no worse off. Maybe we need to get back to basics.......i've had enough of the now generation. Disposable income is something new in this country. Not all of life can be a breeze and pleasure.

This is not personally at you but at our society in general.


----------



## Green (8 Apr 2009)

thedaras said:


> Now that FF have taken another huge chunk of my income the result will be that I must reign in my spending ,even more.
> 
> We are the ones that pay for the public sector and now we have to once again pay for the lack of balls that FF have to reform the public sector.


 
You should note that public servants pay tax too...but in this curremt mood of blaming public servants for all our ills that is forgotten.. It should come as no surprise to you that FF are not a reforming party...the cuts and increases yesterday and last October are to fill the void left by the evaporation of construction related tax revenue.


----------



## RMCF (8 Apr 2009)

Although the Gov have definitely made mistakes in recent times, I am starting to feel a bit sorry for them.

They have everyone on the opposition and in the public telling them they are doing everything wrong, including the Budget, yet one person has been able to tell them exactly how to solve the problems WITHOUT hitting us all with extra taxes and cut-backs.

Take FG - they said they could fill the hole in the finances WITHOUT increasing taxes. Absolute nonsense.

And then we have the public complaining about every increase implemented. We continue to hear that we are all ready to take the pain, but when the pain arrives then we get nothing but complaining. This country is on its knees and on the verge of bankruptcy, yet we still have the petty fighting between parties and the public wanting cutbacks, as long as its not to them.


----------



## Ron Burgundy (8 Apr 2009)

It reminds me of the Simpsons.

Where they wanted rid of the bears.....but then had a riot because of the bear tax !!!


----------



## Shawady (8 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> It reminds me of the Simpsons.
> 
> Where they wanted rid of the bears.....but then had a riot because of the bear tax !!!


 
Class episode, and if I remember correctly they finally blamed it on the immigrants.


----------



## Ron Burgundy (8 Apr 2009)

Shawady said:


> Class episode, and if I remember correctly they finally blamed it on the immigrants.


 
Its funny cause its true.


----------



## thedaras (8 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> *After, morgage (fixed rate,so no gain from current cuts) ,car,insurance,car tax ,petrol,house insurance,life insurance,car loan,petrol, health insurance,food,tv licence,esb,gas,phone registration fees,school books ,uniforms ,confirmation,communion,birthdays and anything else which I cant think of right now, there was not a lot of cash left and now FF have taken that.*
> 
> Not to stand up for them. But which of the above did they cause....your car loan ?? Phone fees ??? increase in car insurance ??? conformation, communion ???
> 
> ...


 
Are you suggesting a communist society?
Maybe we should have no disposable income,then again that disposable income is providing jobs,and no disposable income equals no jobs.figure that one out..
Maybe we should all chose to have a basic house,basic car,but I understood this to be a free society where we can better ourselves.
You grew up with nothing,is that what you want for everyone else.
The logical conclusion of your agurment is that we live in a communist society and we all know how that works!
I note that you have at the end of your posts,appolo djs,would you be happy to say that having a DJ would be unnessary,sure we could just sing instead and get back to basics.
Also if people have the disposable income to pay for a Dj,then its providing income for those DJs..if they dont the Djs dont get work and the circle contuinues..
Reality is that those with disposable income also pay the highest taxes ,they in turn pay for the public services and spend the most therfore providing jobs,cut that out of the economy and then we will really see the country on it knees.


----------



## Ron Burgundy (8 Apr 2009)

No but is it the governments fault for everything. Was "basic" car or house mentioned ??

Its a free society correct, but if you can't budget correctly and earn the money to pay the bills is that the governments fault in this "free society". 

In the past we have had no disposable income, do we have a right to it ???

Do you have a right to a b and c ?? NO

If you want a car, house, trips to the hair dressers, big birthdays etc thats your life. If you can't afford them its not the governments fault ?? Did they sign the papers for your fixed rate mortgage or car loan or tell you to go to pointless parties ??

The logical conclusion is you live within your means and if you can't go to the hair dressers etc......TOUGH

Everyone has lost money and has to cut back but is it just the goverments fault or have we been living beyond our means for a long time and now its all biting back ??


----------



## thedaras (8 Apr 2009)

RMCF said:


> Although the Gov have definitely made mistakes in recent times, I am starting to feel a bit sorry for them.
> 
> They have everyone on the opposition and in the public telling them they are doing everything wrong, including the Budget,
> 
> ...


 
I was not voted in by the public to solve the problems which FF created.
They were voted in and they caused the problems.
Yet they are not prepared to do anything about the elephant in the room.

I dont think people are complaining for the sake of it,the reality is that FF made a balls of things and now we are paying for it.
It should not be as bad as it is.
As usual they hit the easy targets.


----------



## Ron Burgundy (8 Apr 2009)

thedaras said:


> I was not voted in by the public to solve the problems which FF created.
> *They were voted in and they caused the problems.*
> Yet they are not prepared to do anything about the elephant in the room.
> 
> ...


 
Did they pick a fixed rate mortgage ??

Did they decide to get a car loan ???

Did we overspend and have the highest rate of credit per person in Europe ??

So what you are saying is that FF are the only and sole group to blame for the economy ???

Are you saying that the ecenomic slow down world wide has nothing to do with it ??

Are you saying that the behaviour of the banks giving 100% mortgages and mortgages worth 10 or 12 times a persons salary are not to blame ???

We are all to blame and we all have to work together to get out of it.

Politicians will always mess things up......but we will always voting them in......


----------



## liaconn (8 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> No
> The logical conclusion is you live within your means and if you can't go to the hair dressers etc......TOUGH


 
Some of us did live within our means. Its not helping us much now.


----------



## thedaras (8 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> No but is it the governments fault for everything. Was "basic" car or house mentioned ??
> 
> Its a free society correct, but if you can't budget correctly and earn the money to pay the bills is that the governments fault in this "free society".
> 
> ...


Tell me this then ,should everyone not buy a house car etc,just in case the goverment decide to take the money which was budgeted for?
Re trips to hairdressers etc,it is the goverments fault that some of us can now not afford them.we worked hard to earn the money and they have now taken it away.
You are being riduclous asking if they signed papers for fixed rate morgages etc,but what they did do was sign off on hugh public sector bills.I obviously signed my fixed rate morgage,BASED on my income,however FF have now erroded that.
How do you determine living beyond our means? 
How do you think people can afford to hire DJs? ahh disposable income? oh but thats living beyond our means..
I did and do earn the money to pay morgage bills etc,but FF have decided that they will stop that and not allow me to keep the money Ive earned and budgeted while paying a hugh amount of taxes.
The logical conclusion of your argument is that no one should buy anything just in case FF decide we have too much


----------



## Ron Burgundy (8 Apr 2009)

liaconn said:


> Some of us did live within our means. Its not helping us much now.


 
True and i feel for you. Honestly i do.

But i don't think justing blaming 1 group will get us anywhere.....


----------



## Ron Burgundy (8 Apr 2009)

thedaras said:


> Tell me this then ,should everyone not buy a house car etc,just in case the goverment decide to take the money which was budgeted for?
> Re trips to hairdressers etc,it is the goverments fault that some of us can now not afford them.we worked hard to earn the money and they have now taken it away.
> You are being riduclous asking if they signed papers for fixed rate morgages etc,but what they did do was sign off on hugh public sector bills.I obviously signed my fixed rate morgage,BASED on my income,however FF have now erroded that.
> How do you determine living beyond our means?
> ...


 
I don't know but they are better value than bands so its a good decision

You ignored all the questions i posed above. There is more than one reason for this.

I got up this morning and there was no milk in the fridge......was that FF fault as well, where do you draw the line.


----------



## Firefly (8 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> I got up this morning and there was no milk in the fridge......was that FF fault as well, where do you draw the line.


 
Only blame FF is there was no cream


----------



## shnaek (8 Apr 2009)

I heard Brian L say there today that the levies will become permanent in December 2009. When we say that Ireland is a low TAX economy, does this take LEVIES into account? We have an income levy, a health levy, and PRSI. These, added to income tax, means that there are a lot of people in this country paying over 50% on moderate enough wages by world standards*.

*By World Standards, I mean the rich world that we are continually told we are part of. Our government constantly tells us we are members of the richest nations of the world, so lets compare ourselves with them.


----------



## liaconn (8 Apr 2009)

Brian Lenihan isn't going to be Minister for Finance forever, and Fianna Fail aren't going to be in power forever. He can't really state that anything's 'permanent'.  I presume the levies could be removed as part of any future budget, if the economic climate so allowed.


----------



## Smashbox (8 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> It reminds me of the Simpsons.


 
They didnt show the Simpsons yesterday on RTE2 because of the after Budget talking

I was very disappointed.


----------



## Teatime (8 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> We are all to blame and we all have to work together to get out of it.


 
Yes, this is the key point that most people dont get. Until they do, we are all screwed and stuck in the blame game.


----------



## liaconn (8 Apr 2009)

I wouldn't say we're 'all to blame', but I do agree we all have to work together to solve the problem, including tightening our belts. Hopefully, with everyone in the same boat ,the 'keeping up with the Joneses' mentality will disappear and people will no longer feel under pressure to spend money on fancy cars/holidays/social lives that they can't really afford.


----------



## TarfHead (8 Apr 2009)

I done my sums and, based on MIR/Income Levy/Health levy, we're down €300 per month.

We can absorb this without having to make hard decisions, but I'm now dreading what is yet to come in December cos I can't imagine how we could absorb a punch of equivalent power. And we'll probably be back to one income by then.


----------



## DublinTexas (8 Apr 2009)

I think that a lot of problems that this nation is facing are coming from a lot of contributors and not only the government of the day.

Sure a lot of problems can be traced down to incompetence when it came down to managing a market that was based on a ponzi scheme or standing up to the social partners.

Nobody did force anybody to buy an overprized house/apartment when it was clear than once more units were on the market than people needed that this would come down. But everybody did try to participate in this get rich quick scheme and the state aided it with mortgage relief and other incentives. 

And once it call came crashing down nobody in the ruling class has the wisdom to take action and made it just worse.

So the outcome is an unfair budget that penalizes people that work and try to cover themselves for rainy days by saving, having a life insurance with critical illness cover or a private pension so that they can actually have a life once they retire. Levies on Life Insurances, higher levies on savings or investments is a joke. There have been losses in pension funds and they start hiking the taxes?

People who are on social welfare are the clear winners of this budget. Yes I am saying it. They got their 3% inflation increase at the beginning of the year and now we have 4% deflation so they get a big hike while I have to save even more because I now have to pay for a clueless government. And before you shout but they took the x-mas bonus away, I’m working and I don’t get a an x-mas bonus. All my bonuses have been eliminated long ago and I have to pay more taxes now.

The looser are also people with private health insurance, not only do the prices go up because of the recent tax on health insurance, we now have to pay 4% for something we might not even use because we choose not to take the risk of dying on a trolley in Beaumont hospital. Now if the 2% addition would actually go to a modern health service (like they have in other countries) I might be convinced to pay it, but this is going to go either directly to the builders or banks or additional managers in the HSE and not equipment or frontline staff.

And in the long run there will be one clear looser: Ireland

Because today in the office I saw the first mobile “non nationals” talking to HR about transferring to another country. These are the people which should have been kept in the country because they contribute to the tax in large amounts. And I’m sure that our HR is soon going to hold a presentation about this and I’m also going to attend because once I pay over ½ of my salary to the tax man I rather move to Sweden where for the ½ of my salary in taxes I get working public transport and a health system where I don’t need private insurance to be taken care off.

And given that I lost about 12% of my salary now due to the different hikes I will make cutbacks and they won’t help stimulating the economy or create jobs. No more going out, no more food delivery and more into the pension funds for as long as that still works.


----------



## thedaras (8 Apr 2009)

DublinTexas said:


> I think that a lot of problems that this nation is facing are coming from a lot of contributors and not only the government of the day.
> 
> Sure a lot of problems can be traced down to incompetence when it came down to managing a market that was based on a ponzi scheme or standing up to the social partners.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with you almost 100 % except where quotes are wraped,as I purchased my house long before the prices went sky high.so cant be blamed for buying an overpriced home.

I remember long ago when Tallaght was built and then the government brought in a scheme wherby people could hand back the keys to the house and get some money,this did happen and most of the people who could get out did get out.

Ireland as a whole is now a bit like that tallaght situation in that those of us who can go will go.
I hope I can go...as if I, like you If I have to pay so much of my income in taxes at least it will be working for me,,as opposed to this country that is falling apart at the seems,badly run,utterly overstaffed public service and mismanaged beyond comprehension.


----------



## DonDub (8 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> Did they pick a fixed rate mortgage ??
> 
> Did they decide to get a car loan ???
> 
> ...


 
Having read through this thread, it is clear to me that you are living in a different reality to the one I inhabit. In my world (the real one), most people work there This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language off, and yes, pre bust - many ventured forth to buy a car, or house, or holiday, with their hard earned cash. Did people foresee the economic catastrophe ahead? Perhaps they believed Bertie in 2007, when he promised continued improvements in the standard of living.

The excessive mortage borrowing was driven by FFs absolute failure to manage public finances (their pro-cyclical policies fuelled an economy which was beginning to overheat). Their 'light-touch' regulation of the banking sector facilitated near criminal actions by the banks, and their courting of developers was/is scandalous.

If FF had managed the economy prudently, we would be in a much more manageable crisis - and the corrective measures required would be more reasonable. 

So, yes - I categorically lay the blame for this disaster squarely, at FF's door. I don't accept any blame - I did nothing wrong. I am one of the so called 'middle class', and apparently, can afford to lose 10% of my income. Well guess what - I continue to work my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language off, and I can't afford to take such a hit.

This government is morally and intellectually bankrupt - they should be behind bars, rather than sitting at the Dail bar. 

Idiots who buy the 'it was the global crisis' line, need their head examined - this government should shag off to where they belong - a third rate, third world, banana republic!!


----------



## bullbars (9 Apr 2009)

thedaras said:


> What can we do? Out FF...they caused it they should suffer the consequences..


 
Personally I would love to tie the lot of them behind my tractor and not stop dragging them around until the chains broke, but what would an election achieve?
I have heard a lot of people calling for a general election etc. but I keep looking at who and what we will get in return. FG + Labour, who will spend the entirity of their time in power saying its not our fault-we never caused this mess-look what we have to do to fix FF's mess but still implementing the same type of budgets. The majority of the opposition wouldnt run a dog house (most prominent is Enda Kenny). If there was an election how long would it be before the new government is in and settled, time is of the essence now more than ever.


----------



## thedaras (9 Apr 2009)

bullbars said:


> Personally I would love to tie the lot of them behind my tractor and not stop dragging them around until the chains broke, but what would an election achieve?
> I have heard a lot of people calling for a general election etc. but I keep looking at who and what we will get in return. FG + Labour, who will spend the entirity of their time in power saying its not our fault-we never caused this mess-look what we have to do to fix FF's mess but still implementing the same type of budgets. The majority of the opposition wouldnt run a dog house (most prominent is Enda Kenny). If there was an election how long would it be before the new government is in and settled, time is of the essence now more than ever.


 
To be honest even if the opposition did implement the same type of budget,I would still rather it wasnt the makers of the mess who were in power.

I would hope that if/when there is a general election that the partys in opposition would have a clear and logical plan as to how to go forward and tackle the mess left by FF,then we can vote for this mandate?

I often think that say for example someone came to put in a driveway for me and I paid them well to do,then they make a complete and utter mess of it,then they tell me they will fix it,but I will have to pay a fortune for it!!

 I think Id take my money elsewhere and if I have to pay a fortune at least I would have a proper job done.


----------



## RMCF (9 Apr 2009)

And it continued yesterday with loads of people ripping into the current Gov due to their decision to take on the bad debts of the banks, or create the 'Bad Bank' as its now known.

They all used the opportunity to say that the Gov was crazy, *even though* the majority of experts and economists that I have heard of TV and in the media over the last 6 months said it was the correct thing to do.

Its a lose-lose situation for the Gov I'm afraid.


----------



## Latrade (9 Apr 2009)

DonDub said:


> The excessive mortage borrowing was driven by FFs absolute failure to manage public finances (their pro-cyclical policies fuelled an economy which was beginning to overheat). Their 'light-touch' regulation of the banking sector facilitated near criminal actions by the banks, and their courting of developers was/is scandalous.
> 
> If FF had managed the economy prudently, we would be in a much more manageable crisis - and the corrective measures required would be more reasonable.
> 
> Idiots who buy the 'it was the global crisis' line, need their head examined - this government should shag off to where they belong - a third rate, third world, banana republic!!


 
Shoulda, coulda, woulda.

The mortgage borrowing was nothing to do with FF, it was the desire/need/compulsion of people to own their own homes at any cost. I don't blame them, I don't blame the government, I don't even blame the banks. It happened all over the world because all the banks are global. The banks used to be a cartel, then measures were intorduced to deregulate and to introduce competition. Once the potential was realised across the world in the sub prime market that's when it went wrong.

All governments turned a blind eye to the morality and practices, not just here. The reality is though that it is global and unfortunately we've seen the real colours of so-called "special relationships" as each country has taken a feck you attitude and look to secure its own interests. We're small fish, we p*ssed a lot of our European cousins off over the last decade with our poaching business, rubbing noses in our wealth. Now we have to sort out the finances and try and compete again with the big boys.

I'm not happy with the budget because I lose money, but I know why it has to be done. It could have been better and there are other measures. But it's nowhere near as bad as it was for our parents, nowhere. They didn't have phones, cable, internet, large cars and they still had to pay huge interest, huge inflation, huge tax and usually on one salary and with kids to feed and clothe and send to school. 

As I said, I'm not happy, but some perspective is needed.


----------



## baldyman27 (9 Apr 2009)

Good post Latrade.


----------



## Ron Burgundy (9 Apr 2009)

Latrade said:


> Shoulda, coulda, woulda.
> 
> The mortgage borrowing was nothing to do with FF, it was the desire/need/compulsion of people to own their own homes at any cost. I don't blame them, I don't blame the government, I don't even blame the banks. It happened all over the world because all the banks are global. The banks used to be a cartel, then measures were intorduced to deregulate and to introduce competition. Once the potential was realised across the world in the sub prime market that's when it went wrong.
> 
> ...



But are those of us who see things this way not living in our own little world.... careful or you'll talk us into a recession !!!


----------



## Lex Foutish (9 Apr 2009)

Latrade said:


> Shoulda, coulda, woulda.
> 
> The mortgage borrowing was nothing to do with FF, it was the desire/need/compulsion of people to own their own homes at any cost. I don't blame them, I don't blame the government, I don't even blame the banks. It happened all over the world because all the banks are global. The banks used to be a cartel, then measures were intorduced to deregulate and to introduce competition. Once the potential was realised across the world in the sub prime market that's when it went wrong.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, excellent post. It also brings to mind our rejection of the Lisbon Treaty, seen by many as the Smug Paddy's way of giving the middle finger to a Europe we no longer needed because we thought we were doing so well on our own. And now we're hoping they'll bail us out. Has anyone else picked up on the "I wish the new Lisbon Treaty vote was next week so that we can vote Yes this time" vibe around the place or is it just me?


----------



## Ron Burgundy (9 Apr 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> Yes, excellent post. It also brings to mind our rejection of the Lisbon Treaty, seen by many as the Smug Paddy's way of giving the middle finger to a Europe we no longer needed because we thought we were doing so well on our own. And now we're hoping they'll bail us out. *Has anyone else picked up on the "I wish the new Lisbon Treaty vote was next week so that we can vote Yes this time" vibe around the place or is it just me?*



Honestly haven't heard one person say that. At the moment most people are just blaming the government for everything and if they go to the public asking them to vote white they will just vote black for what they see as revenge.


----------



## csirl (9 Apr 2009)

thedaras said:


> Tell me this then ,should everyone not buy a house car etc,just in case the goverment decide to take the money which was budgeted for?
> Re trips to hairdressers etc,it is the goverments fault that some of us can now not afford them.we worked hard to earn the money and they have now taken it away.
> You are being riduclous asking if they signed papers for fixed rate morgages etc,but what they did do was sign off on hugh public sector bills.I obviously signed my fixed rate morgage,BASED on my income,however FF have now erroded that.
> How do you determine living beyond our means?
> ...


 

While the budget cuts are severe and have cost most families several thousand per annum in disposable income which certainly will make people think more about how they spend their income and cut back on luxuries, it should not put anyone who has been sensible about their spending in serious financial trouble. 

Did you ever hear of contingency? Most sensible people leave a margin of contingency in their budgeting as there is always a possibility of unforeseen expenses. This contingency is not always about putting money away for a rainy day, more often than not for younger families its a matter of making sure that you do not have too high a percentage longer term committed expenditure that you cannot make adjustments at short notice. Long term committed expenditure includes likes of mortgages and significant bank loans e.g. car loans. If you have too much of your disposable income timed up in committed expenditure, you have only yourself to blame. Chances are if the tax increases didnt get you, something else would have within the next few years.


----------



## Ron Burgundy (9 Apr 2009)

csirl said:


> While the budget cuts are severe and have cost most families several thousand per annum in disposable income which certainly will make people think more about how they spend their income and cut back on luxuries, it should not put anyone who has been sensible about their spending in serious financial trouble.
> 
> Did you ever hear of contingency? Most sensible people leave a margin of contingency in their budgeting as there is always a possibility of unforeseen expenses. This contingency is not always about putting money away for a rainy day, more often than not for younger families its a matter of making sure that you do not have too high a percentage longer term committed expenditure that you cannot make adjustments at short notice. Long term committed expenditu*re includes likes of mortgages and significant bank loans e.g. car loans. If you have too much of your disposable income timed up in committed expenditure, you have only yourself to blame.* Chances are if the tax increases didnt get you, something else would have within the next few years.



So i'm not the only one with this view and the fact that the now generation have a serious shock coming in the next while !


----------



## liaconn (9 Apr 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> Has anyone else picked up on the "I wish the new Lisbon Treaty vote was next week so that we can vote Yes this time" vibe around the place or is it just me?


 
I haven't noticed this. I think most people who voted no did so because they hadn't a clue what the treaty was about, and the Government couldn't explain it to them. I don't think people are really thinking that much about the Lisbon Treaty at the moment, to be honest.


----------



## Latrade (9 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> So i'm not the only one with this view and the fact that the now generation have a serious shock coming in the next while !


 
Nope you're not and I had enough of a memory of the bad times to know that even when times seemed to be unlimited wealth, let's just live within a nice budget and save up for the stuff we really want. 

I say that not to be smug or I told you so. Say that the we'll all die from an asteroid strike for long enough and eventually you'll get to say "I told you so". I'm lucky we didn't get caught up in the rush to be a consumer, but just like I don't see the Government as the sole architects of our doom, I don't feel I want to rub people's noses in it too much either.

I'm just not sure that I can be happy that people will face this shock. I'm not sure I can be smug about it. (not saying you are btw).

I really do sympathise with those who did take up the banks and the consumer idea. Jon Ronson looked at the subprime issue over 2 years ago, it's pretty frightening how people were targeted for this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2007/feb/10/creditcards.debt


----------



## Ron Burgundy (9 Apr 2009)

Latrade said:


> Nope you're not and I had enough of a memory of the bad times to know that even when times seemed to be unlimited wealth, let's just live within a nice budget and save up for the stuff we really want.
> 
> I say that not to be smug or I told you so. Say that the we'll all die from an asteroid strike for long enough and eventually you'll get to say "I told you so". I'm lucky we didn't get caught up in the rush to be a consumer, but just like I don't see the Government as the sole architects of our doom, I don't feel I want to rub people's noses in it too much either.
> 
> ...



Great post and i feel its people who have seen it before will manage best this time around. I do feel for the now generation because i think it really will hit them hard.


----------



## liaconn (9 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> I do feel for the now generation because i think it really will hit them hard.


 
If you mean teenagers, I think its the best thing that will ever happen to them. There is a whole generation of spoilt, over indulged kids out there who think life owes them a designer wardrobe, three foreign holidays a year, state of the art mobiles etc etc. Its about time they got a wake up call. I don't want to sound harsh, and I know not all teenagers are like that, but it was a frightening thought that the future of this country was in the hands of such a materialistic, sheltered, over protected generation.


----------



## Ron Burgundy (9 Apr 2009)

liaconn said:


> *If you mean teenagers*, I think its the best thing that will ever happen to them. There is a whole generation of spoilt, over indulged kids out there who think life owes them a designer wardrobe, three foreign holidays a year, state of the art mobiles etc etc. Its about time they got a wake up call. I don't want to sound harsh, and I know not all teenagers are like that, but it was a frightening thought that the future of this country was in the hands of such a materialistic, sheltered, over protected generation.



Anyone under 25 i'd go with. Since when did it become standard to have foreign holiday after the leaving cert ?? We had a session in the local night club

But your post sums up the now generation and some of them are grown up and married and own houses etc so more to lose than the weekly allowance.


----------



## Latrade (9 Apr 2009)

liaconn said:


> If you mean teenagers, I think its the best thing that will ever happen to them. There is a whole generation of spoilt, over indulged kids out there who think life owes them a designer wardrobe, three foreign holidays a year, state of the art mobiles etc etc. Its about time they got a wake up call. I don't want to sound harsh, and I know not all teenagers are like that, but it was a frightening thought that the future of this country was in the hands of such a materialistic, sheltered, over protected generation.


 
Um an obvious question: who spoilt them? So how is a potential slide back to mass unemployment, emigration good for them? How is it that good for anyone?


----------



## Ron Burgundy (9 Apr 2009)

Latrade said:


> Um an obvious question: who spoilt them? So how is a potential slide back to mass unemployment, emigration good for them? How is it that good for anyone?



No one said it was good but you have to learn to within your means and the best lessons in life are the hardest.

Also if everything in life is handed to you on a plate how do you know the value of it or money ? What i'm saying isn't nice but neither will life be for the next few years.......if you see the bad then when the good comes along you won't take it for granted.

The ipod fairy just died.


----------



## Latrade (9 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> No one said it was good but you have to learn to within your means and the best lessons in life are the hardest.
> 
> Also if everything in life is handed to you on a plate how do you know the value of it or money ? What i'm saying isn't nice but neither will life be for the next few years.......if you see the bad then when the good comes along you won't take it for granted.
> 
> The ipod fairy just died.


 
I couldn't agree more. But the ones who spoilt this generation were the parents, but it's the kids who will pay. While I may lament their lack of awareness of how hard life can be, I can't take too much pleasure in what they could be facing largely because they were never taught those lessons.

And to sit on the fence even more! I can understand where parents were coming from. We can question their lack of foresight and all that, but most just didn't want their kids to go without like they had to. Who can blame them for that? 

I know this sounds like I'm getting all overly liberal and soft, but I think the time has long passed for any pointing fingers or I told you so's. The problem needs to be fixed and that's what we have to do, I actually don't want to get into a situation again where the kids have no hope, no prospects and a destitute country again. Even if it means some lessons in life aren't learned.


----------



## liaconn (9 Apr 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> No one said it was good but you have to learn to within your means and the best lessons in life are the hardest.
> 
> Also if everything in life is handed to you on a plate how do you know the value of it or money ? What i'm saying isn't nice but neither will life be for the next few years.......if you see the bad then when the good comes along you won't take it for granted.
> 
> The ipod fairy just died.


 I totally agree with this. I'm not saying unemployment for young people is a good thing but I do think learning to do without, save up, prioritise what you need, learn that  money doesn't grow on trees etc is very important. My post was in relation to a remark about 'feeling sorry' for this generation and, to be honest, my sympathy is with the older generation who have spent their lives making do and putting up. Just when they were able to relax a bit and enjoy life, they now have to pay for the mess made by the generation below them.


----------



## DonDub (10 Apr 2009)

liaconn said:


> I totally agree with this. I'm not saying unemployment for young people is a good thing but I do think learning to do without, save up, prioritise what you need, learn that money doesn't grow on trees etc is very important. My post was in relation to a remark about 'feeling sorry' for this generation and, to be honest, my sympathy is with the older generation who have spent their lives making do and putting up. Just when they were able to relax a bit and enjoy life, they now have to pay for the mess made by the generation below them.


 
I feel sorry for the majority the young( and middle/old aged), who I believe, are decent and hard working. Not only are they victims of a corrupt and incompetent government, they have to put up with comments like this - suggesting that they need to learn that 'money doesn't grow on trees'. The young people I know, worked hard in school and college, and in the workplace to build successful lives. They didn't create the conditions where house prices rocketed out of control, or banks loaned vast sums to developers to speculate.
Some posters on this thread suggest that people should have lived within their means, and built in contingency. Good for those who had the means to do this, but plenty didn't, because they needed somewhere to live, and a car to commute to work, and money to pay for childcare etc.

Even if everyone had managed to provide for reasonable contingency (say 10%), its clear that the FF mob are going to take a further 10% in December, and even more later. So, where does contingency planning end - should we have been putting 30%,40%,50%.....away for a rainy day.

To those FF/Green supporters, high earning public servants, independently wealthy,tax exiles and others who are cosseted from reality , I suggest you come out of your ivory towers into the real world, and you will see that the rest of us have been screwed by this government, and we aren't prepared to settle for a moral lecture, or for a 'dance at the cross road'.........


----------



## Complainer (10 Apr 2009)

Latrade said:


> The mortgage borrowing was nothing to do with FF, it was the desire/need/compulsion of people to own their own homes at any cost. I don't blame them, I don't blame the government, I don't even blame the banks. It happened all over the world because all the banks are global. The banks used to be a cartel, then measures were intorduced to deregulate and to introduce competition. Once the potential was realised across the world in the sub prime market that's when it went wrong.


This is very unbalanced. Indeed, buyers do need to bear responsibility for their own actions, but they had very few options. The Govt was delighted to sit back and watch the banks/builders inflate inflate inflate prices until they reached an unsustainable level. It was everything to do with FF's relationship with the construction industry.


----------



## liaconn (10 Apr 2009)

DonDub said:


> I feel sorry for the majority the young( and middle/old aged), who I believe, are decent and hard working. Not only are they victims of a corrupt and incompetent government, they have to put up with comments like this - suggesting that they need to learn that 'money doesn't grow on trees'. The young people I know, worked hard in school and college, and in the workplace to build successful lives. They didn't create the conditions where house prices rocketed out of control, or banks loaned vast sums to developers to speculate.
> Some posters on this thread suggest that people should have lived within their means, and built in contingency. Good for those who had the means to do this, but plenty didn't, because they needed somewhere to live, and a car to commute to work, and money to pay for childcare etc.
> 
> Even if everyone had managed to provide for reasonable contingency (say 10%), its clear that the FF mob are going to take a further 10% in December, and even more later. So, where does contingency planning end - should we have been putting 30%,40%,50%.....away for a rainy day.
> ...


 
Nobody's saying they created the conditions. We're saying they grew up in an environment where money was splashed around, consumerism was rampant, values were often focussed on purely material issues etc. This is bound to affect their view of life and their ability to deal with negatives, rejection etc. Nobody's saying they don't work hard, just that they haven't had to deal with a lot of the crap older generations had to put up with. And you cannot possibly deny that a lot of today's younger generation are very spoilt. I cannot remember the last time I saw anyone under the age of about 25 standing up on a bus to offer their seat to an elderly or pregnant person. We did this as a matter of course when I was a teenager.


----------



## Berbatov (13 Apr 2009)

imo Government are solely to blame for this mess. For the past 12 years + they squandered all the boom money. They should have spent more time worrying about the state of the economy than spending time in their galway tent. Bunch of.......


----------

