# How are attached Granny Flats being assessed for the LPT?



## ladybird (5 Mar 2013)

I see in the Household Charge there is provision for them but there is none in the new LPT? 

Is this an oversight? Or will a person with a flat (separate meters, separate entrance) worth €20,000 on an €80,000 house have to pay double the LPT?

ie both are in the <€100,000 category so you pay double. Even if the flat is not let out. 

Any help at all would be very much appreciated,

Ladybird


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## wbbs (5 Mar 2013)

Included in the overall value as I understand it, if it can't be sold separately then it is a part of the house for valuation purposes.


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## ladybird (5 Mar 2013)

You're a star Wbbs! 

Thanks for the prompt reply - would you think me very cheeky to ask is there a link to or section of the act i could read to confirm this? (just to totally use you you understand )

Ladybird


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## wbbs (5 Mar 2013)

I'm no expert!  Just happened to be at a session given by Revenue staff on the topic and this question was asked.   To be honest they were kind of hazy on quite a few questions.


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## ladybird (5 Mar 2013)

This doesn't surprise me. I tried finding a contact email for the LPT section of revenue - there is no section. Said it's still under household charge.

I contacted the household charge website email and they said it's nothing to do with us. Contact revenue.

I read the leaflet they are sending in March and this issue isn't addressed at all as far as i can see - yet special provision was made in the HC so it's not like it's a new issue.

I am currently reading through the act (dear god!!!) to try and get a legal answer as someone is making a financial decision based on the answer and so it is important.

Thanks for replying,

Ladybird


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## ladybird (5 Mar 2013)

Ok, to answer my own question, it looks like the relevant section is on page 10 of the act where it says roughly that the property must be able to be sold at a market value - and as the Granny Flat is not worth anything by itself and cannot be sold by itself, it has no market value and is therefore exempt. 

If anyone knows anything to the contrary please do post and tell me!

Thanks,

Ladybird


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## wbbs (5 Mar 2013)

It would be exempt as a separate dwelling but must be included in the overall value of the house, again from my understanding of how the question was answered by Revenue officials.


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## ladybird (6 Mar 2013)

Thanks Wbbs


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## Meath Lady (6 Mar 2013)

Yes the Revenue official specifically said it would be exempt as an individual dwelling but included in overall value as it cannot be sold separately. 

However I did not hear any clarification on combined flats under the one roof /halldoor. These were individually charged under the household charge and nppr. Would like to see what happens with them now? Will they just be included in the overall house value. Any thoughts or did anyone see relevant literature.


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## Bronte (7 Mar 2013)

*Revenue on Pat Kenny 7th March*

I was just telephoned about a lady from revenue (Frehilly?) who was on Pat Kenny radio show just now. 

She apparently stated if it's a granny flat then it's two separate charges. I do not have the exact wording. Someone else will have to clarify.


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## mandelbrot (7 Mar 2013)

Bronte said:


> I was just telephoned about a lady from revenue (Frehilly?) who was on Pat Kenny radio show just now.
> 
> She apparently stated if it's a granny flat then it's two separate charges. I do not have the exact wording. Someone else will have to clarify.


 
That was Josephine Feehily, the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners (and yes she does go by the title of chairman!).

I didn't hear the bit about granny flats though.


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## T McGibney (7 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> (and yes she does go by the title of chairman!).



Indeed, to her credit. "Chairperson" is an abomination. 

Btw, the Ombudsman and and the separate Ombudsman for Children are both female and neither see any need to emasculate their job titles.


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## Padraigb (7 Mar 2013)

She said that if it could be sold separately from the main house, then it counts as a taxable property. That might simply be a matter of having a separate entrance.

Does it make any real difference? The total value of the property/properties will be the same.


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## Bronte (7 Mar 2013)

cashier said:


> It has also emerged that granny flats, home offices and vacant homes may be liable for the tax. Sheds attached to a property will come into the reckoning for the tax, except farm and commercial buildings, the institute said


 
My reading of that is that of course you add the granny flat/office into the overall property for valuation purposes.  As in you don't ignore it or treat it as a separate property when it is not.  I think if it's one legal title that how it should be how it's treated, but you value all of it for the calculation not bits of it.


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## Dermot (7 Mar 2013)

I was listening to the Pat Kenny interview with Josephine Feehily and although I cannot quote her verbatim it was clear to me that what she was saying was that Granny Flats would be considered a separate entity. I think that revenue will certainly take a hard look at Granny Flats that have a separate ESB meter and any of those that had either a liability to NPPR or Household Charge are going to definitely get mugged separately for the LPT.  That was what I understood from that section of the interview


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## Time (7 Mar 2013)

I agree if they paid the HC separately they will be assessed for property tax.


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## wbbs (7 Mar 2013)

Well they would want to get their stories straight, two Revenue officials clearly said at an information session I was at that granny flats were not taxed separately if they could not be sold separately and I would imagine very few can, and were just included in the overall value of the property.


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## Time (7 Mar 2013)

Were granny flats considered separate households under the household charge?


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## ladybird (8 Mar 2013)

Boy this thread took off while i was gone! 

Time, your question just alerted me to a HUGE error i made in my research. I said in my OP that GFs were dealt with in the household charge and when i went to link it in to answer your question i realised that i got my info from the NPPR site - ie tax on second homes and they had an exemption for granny flats with a relative living in them within 2km of main residence.

I am doing calculations for a friend. And after listening to Pat Kenny just now it does sound as if tax chief is wrong -if the garage is attached to the main house. 

- How could a garage containing a granny flat be sold separately? Or be considered a second property as the with the new property tax you have to give an evaluation of your house with GF/garage included - so that means you are paying twice? Especially if you are in the below 100,000 bracket.

An example - small urban 2 bed house with granny flat on back - sale price 99,000. Houses in area usually go for 80,000 so flat worth 20,000 on top.

Buyer buys it at 99,000 - than pays LPT of <100,000 on house
AND
LPT of <100,000 on flat.

 Irony could be seller is downsizing to save on bills etc and their old house was 149,000!

Am i nuts? (be kind - it's late!)


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## Bronte (8 Mar 2013)

Time said:


> Were granny flats considered separate households under the household charge?


 
Yes, I have the exact scenario and paid NPPR and household charge for both. It's also the same for a house I have divided into 2 flats. One front door and then one flat downstairs and another upstairs with their own entrance. Water not divided, ESB is, Gas is not. 

I cannot sell the granny flat. It's just an ordinary 3 bed semi that had a garage attached. Same as every other house in the estate. Garage turned into flat (and no planning of course ! About 3/4 of the estate is like this). At the back of the house it has it's own door. To me you couldn't sell the granny flat as a separate property. There is one supply of water but ESB is separate. 

For the NPPR and household charge, it was my understanding that the charge applied per unit, not per property.

I was over the moon when the new property tax came it as I understood it to be per property and not per unit.


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## ladybird (8 Mar 2013)

I've read the act and nowhere is this dealt with -except as i stated on page 10 as "definition of a residence" and so i believe you could dispute this with them?


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## kenmare (16 Apr 2013)

*granny flat*

I converted a detached garage on my property into 1 bedroom flat a few years ago. I have received 2 LPT "invoices" both for €157. The flat is an integral part of my property and really has not a separate market value on its own. However I am aware that it adds value to my property but surly not the same value as my 4 bed house. As I can only deal with the LPT online there doesn't seem to be a facility to query value of flat on the web site. Can anybody advise?


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## Gervan (16 Apr 2013)

Is the extract below of any use Kenmare? From Revenue's FAQs. 

You will have to look into who is the assessable person for the flat; if you are the owner of both, I'd say you can include the value of the flat in with your house. 

You would make the return and payment for the house, then write to Revenue explaining what you have done and saying the flat is not separately liable. 


*10. I am living in a granny flat. My flat is attached to my  son’s house but it has its own front door. Should it be assessed  separately or with my son’s house?*
  The strict legal position is that any self-contained dwelling, such  as a granny flat, is treated as a separate residential property that  will incur a separate LPT liability. However, Revenue recognises that  certain types of dwelling that are an integral part of a larger building  may be difficult to value and sell on the open market. Therefore  *Revenue will give a liable person the option of valuing a granny flat as  part of the overall building where the liable person in relation to  both parts of the building is the same.* However, where there is a  different liable person in relation to the granny flat and the rest of  the building, the granny flat should be valued separately for LPT  purposes. This treatment also applies to other similar types of dwelling  that are an integral part of the overall building such as converted  garages and side extensions.


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## ladybird (16 Apr 2013)

Thank Gervan - i missed that (wasn't on the FAQ when i last looked) but have just convinced one friend to sell her small house and grannyflat in attached garage to another of her friends and we reassured friend B that the granny flat would NOT be liable for a separate LPT in her case.

 Am Very Very relieved!!! 

Ladybird


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## kenmare (16 Apr 2013)

Thanks Gervan, will go down that route. Now the problem is quantifying the value of granny flat also in my case the flat is detached from main residence by about 2 metres.
Kenmare


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