# Bankruptcy and Moving to the U.S.



## company (30 Apr 2013)

Hi 

My family is in huge mortgage distress, we have 3 kids and cannot make the mortgage I am employed by a US multinational, I have the option of moving my family to the U.S.

I would be leaving behind two mortgages, I am wondering could I continue to work in the U.S. and declare bankruptcy over there then possibly return to Ireland in two years.

I have tried many,many times to negotiate with the bank, the only thing they will offer is either a reduced payment scheme or to sell property at a loss and put the remainder in unsecured debt. Either option would leave us in financial difficulty for the next 20-30 years. 

Has anyone any experience with U.S. bankruptcy? I cannot move to the U.K. as the company does not have a similar role for me there.

The bank is not an irish owned bank, so I will not be leaving the debt on the irish taxpayer.

any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## Jim2007 (1 May 2013)

Would you even be allowed to remain in the US, if you were declared bankrupt???


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## Jim Stafford (1 May 2013)

If you are moving to the USA, try and choose a "Homestead" state if you can i.e. a state that protects your family home (your family home would then have to be in that state.) "Homestead" states, such as Florida and Massachusetts, protect the family home from creditors.


Jim Stafford


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## company (3 May 2013)

Thanks guys. i have no idea about US law and it was a long shot that anyone here would either, I could transfer to Boston.

Ill need to do some digging myself and will speak internally with the legal department.

Thanks


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## Bronte (3 May 2013)

company said:


> Ill need to do some digging myself and will speak internally with the legal department.
> 
> Thanks


 
I'm sure there must be an equivelent of AAM in the US.  Ask your American colleagues.  

Also it seems to nearly be a badge of honour in the US to have gone bust at least once.


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## MrEarl (3 May 2013)

company said:


> Hi
> 
> My family is in huge mortgage distress, we have 3 kids and cannot make the mortgage I am employed by a US multinational, I have the option of moving my family to the U.S.
> 
> ...




Hello,

Given you are working you are clearly earning a living and can afford to make some level of repayments, can you not ?

So, if you cannot service the level of repayments you are scheduled to pay, the Bank offers you the possibility of either (a) reduced payments for a period of time, then review the situation and level of payments or (b) to sell the property and you then pay back the shortfall over a long future period ... that does not sound unreasonable, to be honest.  It tells me the Bank thinks you can repay your debt in some form and they expect you to do so.

I have to say that while I do not have the full financial information here, this does sound a little like you may simply not want to have to repay your debt because the value of your properties has dropped - rather than you are in genuine financial distress and the Bank in question must think something similar.

What do you mean by either option offered by the Bank would leave you in "financial difficulty" - would it be any different to the rest of us, who have homes with large homeloans, are working and have to repay our loans over the next 20-30 years and by default will also be under some financial pressure during this very long period ?

Why not use the recently introduced legislation here, to declare bankrupt if your situation is genuine ?

Is your employer putting you in a situation where you can only retain your employment, if you move to the USA .... or are you hoping to avail of a potential opportunity here, to ensure you have a future income source, while leaving your unpaid debt behind here in Ireland (regardless of where the Bank may originate from) ?

Perhaps if you can clarity some of the questions and issues raised above, it may help our (or at least my) general appreciation of your situation.

Regards

Mr. Earl.


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## company (14 May 2013)

MrEarl said:


> Hello,
> 
> Given you are working you are clearly earning a living and can afford to make some level of repayments, can you not ?



I can afford to pay it all back



> So, if you cannot service the level of repayments you are scheduled to pay, the Bank offers you the possibility of either (a) reduced payments for a period of time, then review the situation and level of payments or (b) to sell the property and you then pay back the shortfall over a long future period ... that does not sound unreasonable, to be honest.  It tells me the Bank thinks you can repay your debt in some form and they expect you to do so.




No that is completely unreasonable. Which bank do you work for ? If you dont you clearly live in some alternate reality. So I sell houses at a loss of 300000 Euro, so now I have no house and an unsecured debt of 300000 Euro. 

Get a grip on yourself.



> I have to say that while I do not have the full financial information here, this does sound a little like you may simply not want to have to repay your debt because the value of your properties has dropped - rather than you are in genuine financial distress and the Bank in question must think something similar.



You are right and wrong, I do indeed have properties worth half of what I will pay, and at the same time the bank will have me filling out SFS for the rest of my life and me and my family living on bread and water. I have proposed many solutions to the bank and met with them several times, including putting one of the properties on a lower interest rate, extending the term of the mortages, writing off a small portion of the debt, and the answer is always the same, you can afford to pay, you cant live , but you can pay. I am not going to spend the rest of my life being a slave for a bank regardless of your moral high ground BS.



> What do you mean by either option offered by the Bank would leave you in "financial difficulty" - would it be any different to the rest of us, who have homes with large homeloans, are working and have to repay our loans over the next 20-30 years and by default will also be under some financial pressure during this very long period ?



I dont mean to sound rude, but what is the purpose of your reply? Is it to help me out or to notify me of YOUR situation. If you CHOOSE to be a slave, that is your business and your choice, I choose to have a life for me and my family, and not reward a banking system which is geared towards making slaves of the general population in order to pay their bonuses.



> Why not use the recently introduced legislation here, to declare bankrupt if your situation is genuine ?



oh please, yeah ill declare myself bankrupt and have difficulty travelling, getting loans and still have to live in this ****hole country.



> Is your employer putting you in a situation where you can only retain your employment, if you move to the USA .... or are you hoping to avail of a potential opportunity here, to ensure you have a future income source, while leaving your unpaid debt behind here in Ireland (regardless of where the Bank may originate from) ?



I fail to see how any of the questions you have asked is relevent to my question, each and everyone of your questions is about YOU and how this might affect YOU. The usual selfish begrudger. I refuse to answer your questions in the same way you refuse to answer mine.



> Perhaps if you can clarity some of the questions and issues raised above, it may help our (or at least my) general appreciation of your situation.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mr. Earl.



I dont want your appreciation.


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## Mrs Vimes (14 May 2013)

company said:


> I can afford to pay it all back



If you have a look at a lot of the other posts on this site, generally speaking people who have found themselves in a bad situation financially get sympathy (even though the problems are often of their own making), and suggestions as to how best to improve their situation.

You will also find that posters who post saying that they borrowed a load of money to buy assets which they thought were a one way bet but which have now turned into a millstone around their necks so they want to walk away unscathed get a lot less sympathy and fewer useful suggestions.



company said:


> I dont want your appreciation.



I'm not sure you understood Mr Earl!


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## company (14 May 2013)

Mrs Vimes said:


> If you have a look at a lot of the other posts on this site, generally speaking people who have found themselves in a bad situation financially get sympathy (even though the problems are often of their own making), and suggestions as to how best to improve their situation.
> 
> You will also find that posters who post saying that they borrowed a load of money to buy assets which they thought were a one way bet but which have now turned into a millstone around their necks so they want to walk away unscathed get a lot less sympathy and fewer useful suggestions.
> 
> I'm not sure you understood Mr Earl!



I was not looking for compassion or sympathy, I have been lurking in these forums long enough to know that is wishful thinking. The only person I consistently see on the forum with any of these is Bronte.

Maybe you would care to elaborate on the unscathed part?


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## Palerider (14 May 2013)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *MrEarl* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=1330224#post1330224 
_Hello,_

_Given you are working you are clearly earning a living and can afford to make some level of repayments, can you not ?_

'' I can afford to pay it all back ''

If you borrow money and can afford to pay it back then you should pay it back.

There is nothing wrong with negotiating the best possible arrangement for yourself or have somebody do so on your behalf which may include some debt write down.

I am not making a judgment on your morals or indeed the difference between right and wrong, you are clearly in a good job and I take it as given you are savvy and don't need me to point out the difference. You borrowed, you still have repayment capacity, don't run from your problems face them head on, negative equity is a reality for thousands of people.

It is not relevant to state that you would not be leaving the debt to the Irish taxpayer, somebody must pay and you are on the hook, enter an arrangement with your lender after a period of robust negotiation and put the idea of relocating your family to the U.S. to the back of your mind at least for now, there is a cost to a relocation as well of course and not all costs are financial. 

You will find people in the main will give their views and opinions fairly on AAM, I think your response to Mr Earl was uncalled for, If you do not like what you hear you don't have to engage.


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## Spear (14 May 2013)

Palerider said:


> I think your response to Mr Earl was uncalled for, If you do not like what you hear you don't have to engage.



+1

Mr Earl's post was fair enough. We may not like what the banks are doing, but I don't think running from the debt is the appropriate solution. Face the bank head on and give them a fight. What they are doing may not be fair, but the solution is not to run away.


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## company (14 May 2013)

> '' I can afford to pay it all back ''
> 
> If you borrow money and can afford to pay it back then you should pay it back.



Under normal circumstances I agree, if you lent me 50 euro I would surely pay it back if I could, but likewise if I came to you and told you that by giving you back the 50 euro I would be unable to feed my kids I am sure you would hand it back. Theres the difference, you are not a corporation, you are an individual and therein you have a conscience.



> There is nothing wrong with negotiating the best possible arrangement for yourself or have somebody do so on your behalf which may include some debt write down.



I have tried this tirelessly for 5 years.



> I am not making a judgment on your morals



My morals are fine. I do charity work once or twice a year. How is failure to reward a corrupt banking system immoral ? I think its the most moral thing I can do.



> or indeed the difference between right and wrong, you are clearly in a good job and I take it as given you are savvy and don't need me to point out the difference. You borrowed, you still have repayment capacity, don't run from your problems face them head on, negative equity is a reality for thousands of people.



Yes negative equity is a reality for thousands of people and those people should be out on the streets picketing the government, read about the banking collapse, this is no conspiracy theory. Many in the banking sector saw this coming and continued to give out toxic loans, what THEY did was immoral, if we refuse to pay them back this is the most moral thing we can do.



> It is not relevant to state that you would not be leaving the debt to the Irish taxpayer, somebody must pay and you are on the hook, enter an arrangement with your lender after a period of robust negotiation and put the idea of relocating your family to the U.S. to the back of your mind at least for now, there is a cost to a relocation as well of course and not all costs are financial.
> 
> You will find people in the main will give their views and opinions fairly on AAM, I think your response to Mr Earl was uncalled for, If you do not like what you hear you don't have to engage.



I agree, someone must pay. and it will be the bank, not me , not you , not the taxpayer. THE BANK. If the government passes on the losses of a bank to the tax payer, does that not show you there is something seriously wrong with our society? Does this not in fact destroy the concept of the free market and capitalism?


Your response was in fact reasonable, but yet my initial question still goes unanswered. 

As for running away, yes I would in a heart beat and wouldn't feel in any way ashamed of it.

I have done "the right thing" as you put it, for 5 years and I am worse off now than I ever was. If I robbed a bank I would do a 4 years and be back out on the streets, but these mortgages are a life sentence for me and my family.

If the tax payer ends up paying for the mistakes of the banks during the boom, well then that is the fault of the government, not mine, no one foresaw the huge financial crisis looming with the exception of the banks, I certainly didn't, but somehow you expect me to pay for their strategies and their bonuses.

Well I wont. I wont pay a property tax either, I wont see my wife (public sector) take more and more pay cuts, I wont take on more and more taxes myself any more. Im not running away, im escaping.The begrudgers who pat them selves on the back for not making the same mistakes as some of us can stay here and congratulate each other on their prudishness, they can take pleasure out of watching their fellow countrymen suffer.

If the Irish government were to bail out distressed mortgage holders how much would it cost? I can tell you it would be a damn lot less than what they paid for Anglo, but I dont see many on this forum talking about that option, bailing out banks and building contractors is fine, but heaven forbid the government should actually act in the interest of its citizens.


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## mercman (14 May 2013)

company said:


> If the Irish government were to bail out distressed mortgage holders how much would it cost? I can tell you it would be a damn lot less than what they paid for Anglo, but I dont see many on this forum talking about that option, bailing out banks and building contractors is fine, but heaven forbid the government should actually act in the interest of its citizens.



This is possibly one of the most truthful parts of posts in relation to these matters I have read yet. In general many people do not realise the level of hardship that a large amount of people are having to endure. In reality and in the main most people make extraordinary efforts to fulfill their obligations. But there are cases where the Banks don't listen and prolong the agony.

Basically the problems of the Western World were caused by the greed of Bankers. Realistically they or the Government need to get a grip, before the entire country implodes on itself.


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## munchy (14 May 2013)

Before arriving in the USA, would it be an idea to become insolvent in Ireland (onerous, I know) or declare bankruptcy in the UK, and then head on to the USA? I dont think discharging debts here or in the UK would affect your credit rating in the US. I just wonder if that is a possibility for people emigrating to far flung places.


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## MrEarl (15 May 2013)

company said:


> I can afford to pay it all back
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Hello,

I do not work for a Bank.  I do however try to be a law abiding, honorable citizen .... 

Given you don't like my responses (eh, perhaps because I'm not supporting your proposal to "do a legger" and renege on your commitments in the process) ... I won't bother with any further contributions on this discussion thread.

If I may, I will leave you with this final thought, however ... Don't do evil _things_, and evil will never _catch up with you _

Regards

Mr. Earl.


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## Bronte (15 May 2013)

company said:


> Which bank do you work for ? If you dont you clearly live in some alternate reality.
> 
> Get a grip on yourself.
> 
> ...


 
Well you certainly come across as extremely rude indeed. MrEarl's post had nothing bad in it, it was thoughtful and questioning and you've basically tried to cut him down when there was nothing he said that was wrong. It's only right that he questioned a new poster on the full details. And I think you should apologise to him. 

In relation to your ranting about the banks etc, don't you think we all feel that. Do you not realise that most of us are hopping mad at what went on when the bankers went cap in hand to Brian Lenihan, of which we still do not have the full story. Do you not think that when we see Richie Boucher's salary last week that we despair. But none of that is going to solve anything. Only solution is vote out the current government next time if we are not happy with their performance and what's the alternative, FF who got us into this mess. Otherwise we go down the side of SF and the far right as they seem to be doing in the UK and that is not going to be good for anybody. 

In relation to your debts, it seems you can pay, but you don't want to be a slave for the rest of your life. If you can afford to pay I think you should, as I believe if you borrow you should repay. But I do not agree with the can kicking, which you've been part of now for 5 years. And I also believe in debt forgiveness or writedowns to sustainability where necessary. And as stated on here before I'm not a bit happy with the new insolvency regime which has been written by the banks and doesn't look at all a credible bankruptcy/insolvency system, but only time will tell on that.

In relation to your options in bankruptcy in the US, it seems you are going there temporarily for 2 years, and I assume you are an Irish citizen. I think you should research Sean Dunne and David Drumm, two high profile US bankrutpcy individuals from Ireland. As far as I could tell from their cases they had to prove they were resident etc so you might get scuppered there. I assume you'll be getting a particular type of green card/working visa but it will be temporary.  The US bankruptcy process seemed like a simple enough procedure (except for those two high profilers - but that wouldn't apply to the normal bankrupt). If you post more of your details we may have other solutions for you but I think the US option is not available to you.


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## Cantalia (15 May 2013)

The man is clearly under pressure. While the venting may be a bit inappropriate its understandable. Company, you have to cool the jets a bit on this forum. We know what you are saying. We know what they are saying. You got excellent advice on the homestead point. You need to do a lot of online research. You also got good advice on the point that moving to a new country brings its own problems. Take care.


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## Negotiator (15 May 2013)

It's the same old story over and over again.........why is it that in Ireland if you go bust you're wreckless or you made a stupid decision, and yet in The States you're applauded as an entrepreneur and encouraged to get up and go again!

There is absolutely nothing wrong in my opinion with choosing an alternative to being a debt slave for a period of 20 years or so. In fact I would say you were being irresponsible if you didn't face up to your reality and choose to do something about it, rather than paralyze yourself with debt for the rest of you life. It's clear that the banks are not facing up to their problems, which could be considered as 'running away from the problem' themselves!

I don't see it as any different with regards to individuals going bust or insolvent by buying their own home or even a second home as a pension etc. The much used line "you borrowed the money you must pay it back" regardless of the individuals circumstances and the fact that Ireland has gone through the mother of all property collapses is not a solution to Ireland's debt problems. It's a reminder on how little progress we've made in this country on shedding our ancient begrudgery mentality that seems to be ingrained in many peoples minds.

Why do most advanced modern economies have insolvency processes in the first place.......they're there to help people get their lives back.


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## Bronte (16 May 2013)

Negotiator said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong in my opinion with choosing an alternative to being a debt slave for a period of 20 years or so.
> 
> , rather than paralyze yourself with debt for the rest of you life. .


 
I basically agree with all your points Negotiator, it's terrible that people have already wasted at least 5 years and still no closer on the insolvency being up and running, and that is looking like up to 8 years of further paralysis for families, so nearly 15 years, and that's a heck of a lot in a lifetime, particularly those with kids, and those are the ones who cannot do the easy UK route easily.

I''m beginning to think we should have an overnighter bankruptcy regime and have done with it. All these experts, banks paying accountants 250 Euro, hiring PIP's for 5K - when you're broke ! Losing your pension, being told how much you can spend on food for the next 3/5/8 years. Losing your home, potentially losing an inheritance along the way. It's one big unhappy mess.  Meanwhile people's lives are massively disrupted for years, with no hope, no jobs.  All causing untold misery and marriage breakdown.


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## Kine (16 May 2013)

Bronte said:


> I''m beginning to think we should have an overnighter bankruptcy regime and have done with it. All these experts, banks paying accountants 250 Euro, hiring PIP's for 5K - when you're broke ! Losing your pension, being told how much you can spend on food for the next 3/5/8 years. Losing your home, potentially losing an inheritance along the way. It's one big unhappy mess. Meanwhile people's lives are massively disrupted for years, with no hope, no jobs. All causing untold misery and marriage breakdown.


 
Most logical thing I have read in a while. 

You only have one life, and how you chose to live it is your choice - and yours alone. Unless its illegal (i.e. hiding assets etc), the OP (and everyone else) should do whatever is in the best interests of him and his family.


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## Negotiator (16 May 2013)

Bronte said:


> All these experts, banks paying accountants 250 Euro, hiring PIP's for 5K - when you're broke ! Losing your pension, being told how much you can spend on food for the next 3/5/8 years. Losing your home, potentially losing an inheritance along the way. It's one big unhappy mess.  Meanwhile people's lives are massively disrupted for years, with no hope, no jobs.  All causing untold misery and marriage breakdown.



Totally agree, this is the bit that breaks my heart. Seeing people suffer through what I believe to be a totally unnecessary process that helps no one. The creditor isn't any better off and the debtor certainly isn't any better off. The professionals are licking their choppers at the thought of all the fees they will earn........crazy stuff, only in Ireland could this happen!!


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## company (23 May 2013)

Kine said:


> Most logical thing I have read in a while.
> 
> You only have one life, and how you chose to live it is your choice - and yours alone. Unless its illegal (i.e. hiding assets etc), the OP (and everyone else) should do whatever is in the best interests of him and his family.



A fine sensible reply, and I thank you. I am under a huge amount of stress with regard to this, and to see people throw around "strategic defaulters" like as if I am one of them is insane. I want to keep my house we have put a lot of work into it, but I am not prepared to be a slave for the next 30 years.


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## Bronte (24 May 2013)

So what are you going to do about your situation Company, we had a poster heading back to the USA about a month ago and he was doing his best to deal with his bank and getting nowhere, I think he's gone now, but for him it was a different matter, unlike you he was going there permanently. I don't think you can go bankrupt there on a temporary visa. 

You've actually not outlined your finances so we cannot give you any more concrete advice, such as not paying and making the bank sit up and deal with you. Do you qualify under the new insolvency legislation perhaps?


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