# VAT RTD form query



## fizzy

I am filling out the annual return of trading details (RTD) VAT form for the first time, and am finding it very tricky. I have the VAT for small businesses guide but the example in that is a very simple case.

I finally got through to Revenue who helped me with column 1 but then I found out from them that I had completely misunderstood column 2, so I would really appreciate it if someone could confirm if the following is correct:

1) Column 1 - supplies
I only supply at 21% so is this (sum of VAT3 T1 values)/21*100?
My VAT3 T1 values would include some "dummy" VAT for outside EU purchases and EU purchases (i.e. I don't get charged VAT on the EU stuff or the outside EU stuff, but I self account for it, adding 21% to T1 and deducting this from T2 which does not change the VAT liability but does increase both T1 and T2)
So is the ex VAT value of the EU and outside EU purchases included in the first column, or is is purely the VAT I charged on my sales invoices?

2) Column 2 - Acquisitions from EU countries ex VAT
I thought I understood this because the heading to me says only include EU purchases i.e. the sum of VAT3 E2 figures
However, Revenue now tell me that *all* purchases (domestic, EU, outside EU) go in this column and that columns 3 and 4 should sum to column 2.
This really confuses me because the column is titled EU?!

Many thanks for your time


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## mandelbrot

fizzy said:


> I am filling out the annual return of trading details (RTD) VAT form for the first time, and am finding it very tricky. I have the VAT for small businesses guide but the example in that is a very simple case.
> 
> I finally got through to Revenue who helped me with column 1 but then I found out from them that I had completely misunderstood column 2, so I would really appreciate it if someone could confirm if the following is correct:
> 
> 1) Column 1 - supplies
> I only supply at 21% so is this (sum of VAT3 T1 values)/21*100?
> My VAT3 T1 values would include some "dummy" VAT for outside EU purchases and EU purchases (i.e. I don't get charged VAT on the EU stuff or the outside EU stuff, but I self account for it, adding 21% to T1 and deducting this from T2 which does not change the VAT liability but does increase both T1 and T2)
> So is the ex VAT value of the EU and outside EU purchases included in the first column, or is is purely the VAT I charged on my sales invoices?


 
OK my advice would be to forget about your T1 figures when calculating the figure for Column 1. The whole point of the form is to strip out what you call the "dummy" VAT. What you are being asked to enter is the actual net of VAT value of your actual sales / supplies in the period.



fizzy said:


> 2) Column 2 - Acquisitions from EU countries ex VAT
> I thought I understood this because the heading to me says only include EU purchases i.e. the sum of VAT3 E2 figures
> However, Revenue now tell me that *all* purchases (domestic, EU, outside EU) go in this column and that columns 3 and 4 should sum to column 2.
> This really confuses me because the column is titled EU?!


 
It sounds like you were poorly advised there, my understanding is the same as yours, it specifically says in the notes for completing it that what is to be included in column 2 is the amounts of any acquisitions (purchases) from other EU countries, or from outside the EU, where VAT wasn't charged. This is the amount on which you would be obliged to self-account (or account for "dummy" VAT as you put it). 

By calculating VAT at the appropriate rates on the figures in column 2, and adding it to the VAT calculated on the figures in column 1, this should equal the total of your T1 ("real" VAT on sales plus "dummy" VAT).

Columns 3 & 4 are to include all purchases for resale and non-resale respectively, including the amounts already shown separately in column 2. By calculating the VAT from the figures in these 2 columns, one should have the total of the T2 VAT. And by deducting the VAT from column 2 ("dummy" VAT), one can see the amount of VAT on domestic acquisitions.

I hope that makes some sense...


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## fizzy

Many thanks Mandelbrot - that makes a lot of sense.

The ROS help link for the RTD form says for the column 1 boxes:


> These boxes should contain the total value of supllies/sale of goods/services (net of VAT). *Include the value of self supplies and the value of services received from abroad where the recipient must pay the VAT.*



It was the last part of this which made me think I should include the value of EU and outside EU purchases which I add in "dummy" VAT for in the VAT3 returns.

The ROS help for column 2 says:


> These boxes should contain the total value of acquisitions of goods/services *from other Member States (include VAT free imported parcels)*. Determine the rate which would apply if the goods/services were supplied within the state and enter the value in the relevant box.



I did ask the Revenue official a few times why all purchases should go in column 2 if the heading says EU, but he said it was just that the form was not user friendly. But now I have this Ros help file printed, I'll go by that.

Is it the "include VAT free imported parcels" bit that is the signal to include outside EU stuff? 
The column 2 in the Vat for Small Businesses book had a box saying it should cover both a)Intra EU and b)Imported Parcels, but the ROS form just has a heading 'Acquisitions from EU Countries' so that's why I was wondering if the form may have changed since the 2006 guide and column 2 was EU only now.


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## mandelbrot

fizzy said:


> Many thanks Mandelbrot - that makes a lot of sense.
> 
> The ROS help link for the RTD form says for the column 1 boxes:
> 
> 
> It was the last part of this which made me think I should include the value of EU and outside EU purchases which I add in "dummy" VAT for in the VAT3 returns.
> 
> The ROS help for column 2 says:
> 
> 
> I did ask the Revenue official a few times why all purchases should go in column 2 if the heading says EU, but he said it was just that the form was not user friendly. But now I have this Ros help file printed, I'll go by that.
> 
> Is it the "include VAT free imported parcels" bit that is the signal to include outside EU stuff?
> The column 2 in the Vat for Small Businesses book had a box saying it should cover both a)Intra EU and b)Imported Parcels, but the ROS form just has a heading 'Acquisitions from EU Countries' so that's why I was wondering if the form may have changed since the 2006 guide and column 2 was EU only now.


 
Oh I'm not so sure any more, maybe the requirements have changed, it's been a couple of years since I was filling in any of those forms... maybe someone with more recent experience will enlighten us over the course of the day.


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## fizzy

Just an update for anyone else who finds the VAT return of trading details form confusing.
I spoke with someone else in Revenue this morning and this is now my understanding:

Column 1: Sales and EU purchases and Outside EU purchases (due to the reverse charge system)

Column 2: EU purchases only

Column 3 & 4 : All purchases (domestic/EU/outside EU) split into items for resale (column 3) and other expenses (column 4)


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## kelebrin

It is old topic, however some things become clear for me after I completed my RTD. I would like to point that,  despite revenue official help, correct way to fill form is as follow:

Column 1, 2 are for vat which goes to revenue either real and dummy

Column 1 - Sales
Column 2 - Acquisitions from EU and Import (vat free parcels)
Column 3, 4 are for vat which goes to company, same real and dummy

Column 3 - total purchases for resale
Column 4 - total purchases not-for resale

Checkup rules
VAT calculated from column 1 and 2 at corresponding rates equals total of T1
VAT calculated from column 3 and 4 at corresponding rates equals total of T2


I have come into this conclusion after reading the manual to Sage accounting software which a lot of people use to make RTD return - "Return_of_trading_details.pdf". Please e-mail me for link or copy, unfortunately I am not able to post link here.


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## OlyaSo

kelebrin said:


> It is old topic, however some things become clear for me after I completed my RTD. I would like to point that,  despite revenue official help, correct way to fill form is as follow:
> 
> Column 1, 2 are for vat which goes to revenue either real and dummy
> 
> Column 1 - Sales
> Column 2 - Acquisitions from EU and Import (vat free parcels)
> Column 3, 4 are for vat which goes to company, same real and dummy
> 
> Column 3 - total purchases for resale
> Column 4 - total purchases not-for resale
> 
> Checkup rules
> VAT calculated from column 1 and 2 at corresponding rates equals total of T1
> VAT calculated from column 3 and 4 at corresponding rates equals total of T2
> 
> 
> I have come into this conclusion after reading the manual to Sage accounting software which a lot of people use to make RTD return - "Return_of_trading_details.pdf". Please e-mail me for link or copy, unfortunately I am not able to post link here.




Hi, would you be able to send me the link, thanks


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