# "Who is buying Ireland?"



## Brendan Burgess (12 Dec 2013)

A really excellent programme presented by Ian Kehoe on RTE on Monday  night. You can watch it on the RTE Player

He got to interview all the big guys who have invested in Ireland in recent years. 

The head of Franklin Templeton who bought €10b worth of Irish bonds 
The guy who put €1.5 billion  into Bank of Ireland 
Bill Mc Morrow, from Kennedy Wilson, who has bought huge blocks of apartments and other sites 
The Comer Brothers who have spent €200m on property including the Vet College in Ballsbridge 

He also interviewed some smaller buyers - guys at the Allsops auctions and a guy called Neville Isdell who paid €10m for CHQ.

They were extrordinarily upbeat about Ireland's prospects. But then the big guys have already doubled their money on their investments.


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## delgirl (12 Dec 2013)

Great programme and would have liked it to have been longer or extended into a series - maybe one per month with updates, new investor interviews and details of foreign companies moving into Ireland including job opportunities.

This programme made a welcome change amidst all the doom and gloom and gives us all hope for the future.


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## mercman (12 Dec 2013)

delgirl said:


> This programme made a welcome change amidst all the doom and gloom and gives us all hope for the future.



Have you been asleep for the past five years ?? The Banks sold the Irish economy down the road. I saw not one thing that would give me a single piece of hope for this country. Large portions of society have been decimated by the Banks seizing their assets by the very same institutions who broke their own rules. To all Bankers who sit smug with a wry smile, in these incredibly difficult times, may you all ROT. And I speak for the vast majority of business people in Ireland.


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## T McGibney (12 Dec 2013)

The biggest irony of all this is that the govt deliberately penalises individual Irish investors in property, while facilitating very generous tax arrangements for non-resident tycoons.


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## mercman (12 Dec 2013)

TMc 100 % correct.

How can such a programme be classed as good or interesting ?? It is quite simple what these vultures have done ?? They pile in to town, the EAs spin them a pile of nonsense, the foreigners 'Ring' many of the sales, as they're the only buyers in town. So they buy cheap, hang around for a bit, and sell for a profit when it suits them.

Not my kind of people -- in fact they are no better than the Bankers with different coloured suits on.


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## Bronte (12 Dec 2013)

T McGibney said:


> while facilitating very generous tax arrangements for non-resident tycoons.


 
The first bit I get (mortage interest at 75% etc) but what tax breaks do the tycoons get ?  Corporation tax?


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## Bronte (12 Dec 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> They were extrordinarily upbeat about Ireland's prospects.


 
Are they not talking up the market for their own interests?


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## T McGibney (12 Dec 2013)

Bronte said:


> The first bit I get (mortage interest at 75% etc) but what tax breaks do the tycoons get ?  Corporation tax?



Non-residents are exempt from exit tax on gross-rollup funds, the vehicle of choice for big investments.


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## Gerry Canning (12 Dec 2013)

mercman said:


> Have you been asleep for the past five years ?? The Banks sold the Irish economy down the road. I saw not one thing that would give me a single piece of hope for this country. Large portions of society have been decimated by the Banks seizing their assets by the very same institutions who broke their own rules. To all Bankers who sit smug with a wry smile, in these incredibly difficult times, may you all ROT. And I speak for the vast majority of business people in Ireland.


 ......................
Mercman. 
You are correct ,
 Banks were permitted by Regulators/Government to run amok and banjax us. Our Regulators/Government are still allowing them far too free a hand.
I would hope our Banks will learn , but methinks like most of our Big Institutions they (dont get it) and will act as the wolves they are , whilst claiming integrity.


That said there is hope.

These Bottom-feeders that are buying cheap are taking a punt  for fat future profits , that weirdly can be good; for If someone doesn,t start to move things we are all condemned to penury.

These vampires have come here in our darkest hour soon there will be light and they will be gone!


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## Bronte (12 Dec 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Non-residents are exempt from exit tax on gross-rollup funds, the vehicle of choice for big investments.


 
So what does this mean in practice, they buy at 10 Million, sell at 15 Millon, and pay zero tax on the gain of 5 million?  Why would this be allowed?  What's the benefit to Ireland Inc?


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## mercman (12 Dec 2013)

Gerry Canning said:


> These vampires have come here in our darkest hour soon there will be light and they will be gone!




Gerry, there will be zero light here unless and until a fluid banking system exists. The Irish people have been placed in a quandary. People are sick of it !! 

Why do you think there are so many suicides ?? It's not because people love the situation here. The Banks have bullied their way around the country. I have stated for the past 3 years that unless there is a level of Debt forgiveness, we're going no where fast.

And in case I forget, Teacher says NO. That's the Irish Government, a load of cretins running a country. Where did you ever see the likes of it. A heap of NATIONAL school teachers running a country.

Think about it !! You know it makes sense.


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## Delboy (12 Dec 2013)

T McGibney said:


> The biggest irony of all this is that the govt deliberately penalises individual Irish investors in property, while facilitating very generous tax arrangements for non-resident tycoons.



Is there not a CGT exemption in place for property investors, recently extended into next year? More interference in the property market by an Irish Govt to artificially get prices rising again

Not everyone thinks investors have a bad deal in Ireland
http://www.irishtimes.com/the-decline-and-fall-of-property-empires-ends-1.1623386


> Specifically for the Irish property sector, the abandoning of a retrospective ban on upward-only rent reviews, the capital gains exemption, and the reduction in stamp duty have combined to ease investor fears about the Irish market.


So bad news for entrepreneurs and consumers, good news for those moving property around.....same old same old in this country


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## T McGibney (12 Dec 2013)

Delboy said:


> Is there not a CGT exemption in place for property investors, recently extended into next year? More interference in the property market by an Irish Govt to artificially get prices rising again



That reinforces rather than contradicts my point above.


Delboy said:


> Not everyone thinks investors have a bad deal in Ireland
> http://www.irishtimes.com/the-decline-and-fall-of-property-empires-ends-1.1623386


Ditto


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## mercman (12 Dec 2013)

All this is very fine, but without a credible banking system, we're on the road to hell. literally.


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## Bronte (12 Dec 2013)

Delboy said:


> Is there not a CGT exemption in place for property investors, recently extended into next year? More interference in the property market by an Irish Govt to artificially get prices rising again
> 
> So bad news for entrepreneurs and consumers, good news for those moving property around.....same old same old in this country


 
Now that's an interesting point Delboy.  When I first heard of the CGT exemption I immediately thought of the government again interfering in the market.  And I'm currently looking myself as this exemption is very enticing.  Particularly as you are hard pushed to justify investing when you add in the current costs of being a landlord/investor.  A good yield is not enough.  

But the problem is that investors will price home owners out of the market.  So I don't agree with the government interfering.  It always creates a mess and I wonder is this driving the current Dublin market.


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## HighFlier (12 Dec 2013)

*Wannabe Buyer*

Well my story is got utterly wasted in 2009 overexposed to silly price property. Upd sticks and have worked abroad since and got back on my feet a bit, all the while feeding three massive mortgages in extreme negative equity. Im now at about zero net worth on the properties and hoping over time to not lose any more . Istill have the mortgages but overall could sell in the morning and clear the balance. So I have a bit of cash now and me and Mrs highflier decided to look at the Dublin market for a small but NICE 2 bed apartment that we could come back to for retirement in 4 or 5 years while prices are still "cheap" now.

Well having not been on myhome.ie for years I was knocked down. Loads of cheap crap but 800 ft 2 beds in good areas are still wild money. 300k +

I gave up after that and I wish I had abandoned Ireland, mortgages and all 4 years ago and I could now be living in a decent chateau in a good part of France.

Utterly depressing

HF


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## T McGibney (12 Dec 2013)

Bronte said:


> But the problem is that investors will price home owners out of the market.


How can this happen in a market which is saturated with supply and suffers from very weak demand? 

And even if it does, what harm?


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## Purple (12 Dec 2013)

T McGibney said:


> How can this happen in a market which is saturated with supply and suffers from very weak demand?
> 
> And even if it does, what harm?



There's a massive shortage of supply in Dublin.


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## mercman (12 Dec 2013)

Purple said:


> There's a massive shortage of supply in Dublin.



Where demand will fall off as soon as people realise there is no Fluid banking system in this country and when the cash is gone it's sure gone.


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## Purple (12 Dec 2013)

mercman said:


> Where demand will fall off as soon as people realise there is no Fluid banking system in this country and when the cash is gone it's sure gone.



The problem is that there is so little supply that prices are going up. There's lots of reasons why the supply is so small. It's not a real market though and if/when there's proper volumes available prices will, at the very least, stop increasing as they have been.


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## T McGibney (12 Dec 2013)

The shortages of supply are at the micro level, eg individual houses and apartments to live in. There is no shortage of supply for investors in larger commercial or residential blocks, hence the opportunities available to the bottom-fishers from abroad.


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## Jim2007 (12 Dec 2013)

Gerry Canning said:


> Banks were permitted by Regulators/Government to run amok and banjax us. Our Regulators/Government are still allowing them far too free a hand.
> I would hope our Banks will learn , but methinks like most of our Big Institutions they (dont get it) and will act as the wolves they are , whilst claiming integrity.





mercman said:


> Have you been asleep for the past five years ?? The Banks sold the Irish economy down the road. I saw not one thing that would give me a single piece of hope for this country. Large portions of society have been decimated by the Banks seizing their assets by the very same institutions who broke their own rules. To all Bankers who sit smug with a wry smile, in these incredibly difficult times, may you all ROT. And I speak for the vast majority of business people in Ireland.



A very simple observation - had you been following the basic rules of investing it would not have matter what the banker and sundry did, *you* would not have got involved, it as simple as that.  Just to recap:

- Property is a high risk asset class, keep a low exposure, single digits at the very least (The Irish: 100%)
- Don't borrow to invest (The Irish: 100% if possible)
- Diversify to reduce risk (The Irish: 100% in to one asset class and within the class one holding)
- Invest in assets to that be easily disposed of in case of a mistake or market correction (A house does not even come near that)

I know it is a lot more comfortable to blame someone else for your situation, but if you don't learn the real lessons of the past then you are doomed to repeat them!  And the comments and questions on this forum tell me that that is exactly what will happen.

Anyone who has taken the time to study bubbles, will tell the same thing - at the end of each bubble measures were put in place to ensure that that would never happen again and yet the same cycle has been repeated over and over again for the last few hundred years!  People's greet will always lead them to find a way around any provisions that are put in place, so the only chance you have to avoid such situations is to follow best practices.

Successful investing is hard enough, without throwing the rule book out the window.


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## Delboy (12 Dec 2013)

T McGibney said:


> How can this happen in a market which is saturated with supply and suffers from very weak demand?
> 
> And even if it does, what harm?



What harm if investors price potential buyers out of the market!!! I think your saying that tongue in cheek unless perhaps you believe that home ownership rates are too high in Ireland? 

And I can assure you there is no saturated supply in Dublin....especially Sth Dublin. I've been looking hard for 2 years now and it's a nightmare...most weekends there's nothing even worth going to look at. And what is worth a gander, has hoards descending from the 1st viewing. Bids being made over asking there and then.
Don't want to get into discussion here on prices, but just to give an idea of whats happening, I believe prices are up by 25% to 30% since late 2011.

And this shortage is having a big impact on rents as can be seen from the latest report issued today


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## mercman (12 Dec 2013)

Jim, personally I'm fine but I know too many people that are in the manure heap. Now I'm not blaming anyone at all, but explain to me this question of mad lunacy by the banks, whence in 2007, on buying a property, I went for a loan the Bank offered me the money (which I accepted) and offered me and fought with me to take another €2 million in case I needed it. I declined it.

How many times did we all hear in 2004/5/6, from the bankers advising us not to keep our money in cash, they had a better route to go down,

They prostituted themselves to the young and old, rich, middle and poor class. It was all about commissions they were earning for themselves, into schemes that couldn't go wrong. Even in equity products they deceived many and misrepresentations were the order of the day.

Coupled this with the fact that many elderly placed their hard earned cash into shares of the Banks. And we all know what happened to the Banks that told all and sundry they did not require any more money.

So the Banks sold the people of the country down the road. The case of the Irish developer will be a long forgotten memory and if anyone would dare to take on the plight of the foreign cheap money, let them, but you won't beat somebody shopping with cheap money, especially when it's not theirs.


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## Marion (12 Dec 2013)

> And in case I forget, Teacher says NO. That's the Irish Government, a load of cretins running a country. Where did you ever see the likes of it. A heap of NATIONAL school teachers running a country.
> 
> Think about it !! You know it makes sense.




And Ireland as a country  did so well when an accountant, solicitors and a barrister were running the country before the present incumbents? Please!

Let's not forget who brought the IMF into this country.

Certainly not Primary teachers.

Marion


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## mercman (12 Dec 2013)

Marion, might I suggest you take off your Party Political Hat for a second. 

Who was in control in the main of most of the County Councils in the country and allowed for the overbuilding of homes throughout the State. And in case you have to check, it was Labour and Fine Gael.

Which Political Parties wanted the Government at the time to splash out more and borrow more at the times. This was Labour and Fine Gael who voted with the Governments plan at the time.

Last question for a Gold Star and a sweetie. As the country has been run on the Road Map laid out by the previous Government which was up to the exit of the Bail Out, I like many would love to see the new plan. 

Expect next year to be put in detention.


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## Marion (12 Dec 2013)

My post wasn't about any particular party but the prior profession of the people running the country at any one time. 


Marion


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## mercman (12 Dec 2013)

The Banks caused the meltdown of Ireland. At the time of the emergency, I was the only single person who stated this country required a National Government to include a mixture of Politicians, high powered business men, and a number of academia. 

But we're all in this together. Most of the big amounts of Private Irish Money has left the country and never to return, but who knows where we'll all end up ??


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## Sue Ellen (12 Dec 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> A really excellent programme presented by Ian Kehoe on RTE on Monday  night. You can watch it on the RTE Player



He was also very interesting to listen to on The Saturday Night Show @ 21 mins into show.


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## T McGibney (12 Dec 2013)

Marion said:


> And Ireland as a country  did so well when an accountant, solicitors and a barrister were running the country before the present incumbents? Please!
> 
> Let's not forget who brought the IMF into this country.
> 
> ...



Who is the accountant you speak of? Charlie McCreevy? (who was gone before the real bubble set in)


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## Marion (12 Dec 2013)

Was Bertie not an accountant?  Maybe he just set himself up as one?

Gas man! 


Marion


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## Bronte (13 Dec 2013)

Jim2007 said:


> Successful investing is hard enough, without throwing the rule book out the window.


 
But I do listen to you, you give great advice. You can be sure I'm going to sell at the next bubble, and I'm just about young enough to make it to then !


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## Purple (13 Dec 2013)

Marion said:


> Was Bertie not an accountant?  Maybe he just set himself up as one?
> 
> Gas man!
> 
> ...



Bertie wasn’t a qualified accountant. I though he was a builder; what was all that talk of dig-out's about otherwise?
He didn’t know the first thing about economics either. Though, I would have to grudgingly admit that he did a superb job in Northern Ireland.

Richard Bruton is an economist, with a masters in Oxford on Irish government debt. He’d probably make a good finance minister.
Michael Noonan is a former school teacher with no formal economics training. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the same level of expertise (at least) as someone with an academic qualification.  He’s done a superb job as minister for finance and he well respected by his peers in Europe.


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## Bronte (13 Dec 2013)

HighFlier said:


> . So I have a bit of cash now and me and Mrs highflier decided to look at the Dublin market for a small but NICE 2 bed apartment that we could come back to for retirement in 4 or 5 years while prices are still "cheap" now.
> 
> Well having not been on myhome.ie for years I was knocked down. Loads of cheap crap but 800 ft 2 beds in good areas are still wild money. 300k +
> 
> HF


 
Chateau's in France are not all their cracked up to be, and who can afford, for example, the South of France. And the maintenance  If you're now equal on property to mortgage what do you plan on doing with them? Selling, or are they making enough in rent to pay the mortgages? If you sell at a CGT loss, then you can offset a gain, we had a thread on it. Something for you to look at perhaps. 

You say you're sorry you didn't abandon the debts, but didn't you do the right thing, paying back that which you owed. 

What is a good area for a 2 bed for 300K plus. Actually where ever it is, it's nuts. Based on most 2 beds I've seen built, they are shoeboxes, you maybe should look at a 3 bed in a less desireable area. Irish people are very insular in relation to location, they think in Dublin if it's not SCD than it's not worth having, and it's plainly not true.


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## Bronte (13 Dec 2013)

mercman said:


> Where demand will fall off as soon as people realise there is no Fluid banking system in this country and when the cash is gone it's sure gone.


 
This will not happen, once the Troika goes we'll see.  First off Noonan couldn't resist and has interfered in the property market with the CGT.  There's an election coming, before that you can be darn sure there will be further incentives to property investment.  If the investors come back in, then those in NE will also gain as they will now be able to sell and move.  Whether they can afford to upscale, well that will depend on savings and salaries.  But the market is already under massive strain in Dublin due to a chronic lack of supply, and apparently there are land banks being held onto, so perhaps some incentive in that area.  Plus banks are back in business, two have already signalled a willingness to entertain the BTL er from abroad.


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## Bronte (13 Dec 2013)

Delboy said:


> And this shortage is having a big impact on rents as can be seen from the latest report issued today


 
Bet you anything it's worse than you think.  This is because PRTB probably does not have price rises of sitting tenants.  I very much doubt that landlords bother to go back into PRTB to change the rents when they go up, particularly as the website is not at all user friendly.


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## geri (13 Dec 2013)

I watched this program the other night. Its not available on RTE Player, so I can't quote exactly but I was disgusted when Bill McMorrow on being questioned towards the end of the programme about the view that foreign investors were bottom feeders, included in his reply and I'm paraphrasing " Hey, nobody died....." If it comes up on player and you get to see it again, notice how he falters a bit at the end of the sentence as he appears to realise that it was a really crass thing to say.


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## Sunny (13 Dec 2013)

Considering Ireland bought up most of Eastern Europe during the Celtic Tiger years, we are not really in a position to moan about bottom feeders.


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## geri (13 Dec 2013)

Its not the "bottom feeders" sentiment that bothered me - thats not what I "moaning" about.  It was his thoughtless comment that bothered me.  And his smarmy grin while he was saying it............


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## Purple (13 Dec 2013)

Sunny said:


> *Considering Ireland bought up most of Eastern Europe during the Celtic Tiger years*, we are not really in a position to moan about bottom feeders.



And Spain and Portugal, and London...


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## Sunny (13 Dec 2013)

geri said:


> Its not the "bottom feeders" sentiment that bothered me - thats not what I "moaning" about. It was his thoughtless comment that bothered me. And his smarmy grin while he was saying it............


 
I know where you are coming from. Just bcause you have money doesn't mean you have class.


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## geri (13 Dec 2013)

Sunny said:


> I know where you are coming from. Just bcause you have money doesn't mean you have class.


 
So true.


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## dub_nerd (13 Dec 2013)

Sunny said:


> I know where you are coming from. Just bcause you have money doesn't mean you have class.


As the Irish people collectively demonstrated during our bubble.


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## forvey2014 (26 Feb 2014)

Sorry for bumping an old thread but can anyone find a new link and its not available on RTÉ Player anymore. Thanks


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