# What evidence of improvements is required for BER assessor?



## 3CC (27 Jan 2009)

Hi All,

Just about to start some work around the house which will involve installing some rigid board insulation internally. 

Does anyone know what evidence I will require for a future BER assessment (given that the work will not be visible at that time).

I will be doing the work over the medium term so getting an assessor to supervise the work intermittently is an obvious but expensive solution.

I did email the SEI on this (twice) but they have not responded.

TIA.


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## sydthebeat (27 Jan 2009)

photographic evidence...

invoices and receipts specifying exact reference to your dwelling....

certification if possible from supplier / manufacturer...


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## bren1916 (27 Jan 2009)

I would imagine that you'll also have to sign the declaration that you have indeed installed the spec you have given to the Assessor with the usual responsibilites that go along with such declarations..


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## sydthebeat (27 Jan 2009)

bren1916 said:


> I would imagine that you'll also have to sign the declaration that you have indeed installed the spec you have given to the Assessor with the usual responsibilites that go along with such declarations..



no.

when assessing an existing dwelling the assessor can only inculde what he/she can varify visually in a non-intrusive way.... unless the evidence as ive outlined above is forthcoming.

a homeowner signing a declaration does nothing to help the assessor in identifying the material hidden in a construction... in order to calculate u values of such construction.


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## bren1916 (27 Jan 2009)

So - if my house which was built in the 80's is fully insulated (cavity wall etc.) plus I have underfloor insualtion but no receipts or pics of when it was installed. 
Since you do not do an intrusive assessment - and I cannot prove it was installed therefore I get a worse BER rating??


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## sydthebeat (27 Jan 2009)

bren1916 said:


> So - if my house which was built in the 80's is fully insulated (cavity wall etc.) plus I have underfloor insualtion but no receipts or pics of when it was installed.
> Since you do not do an intrusive assessment - and I cannot prove it was installed therefore I get a worse BER rating??



you will get a rating that is based on standard u values of the age band of the dwelling....

if there is no proof of any 'upgrades' then the assessor cannot include them.

Thats the way the system is set up.

If you want to open up holes in the construction in order for the assessor to visually confirm whats there, then fire ahead....


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## Lak (27 Jan 2009)

My understanding is that benefit should be accorded to the homeowner with regards to declaration of works, with the onus falling on them with the need to sign a declaration of fact regarding any item that is vauge.
There is really very little that can not be determined in an unobtrusive manner per say. An unfolded paper clip stuck through a plasterboarded wall to determine a depth of insulation and is hardly intrusive.
Invoices and photos of ongoing works will suffice perfectly.


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## 3CC (27 Jan 2009)

Not sure if the unfolded paper clip will determine the lambda value...Also, intend to mount the insulation on battens. If I play dumb, the BER will probably assume the insulation to be 25mm more than I actually used.


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## AlbacoreA (27 Jan 2009)

Is that not a big weakness in the scheme.


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## 3CC (27 Jan 2009)

I have to say I generally support the scheme but this is a bit of a weakness. I think the BER assessor will have to rely on the word of the houseowner to a degree.


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## bren1916 (27 Jan 2009)

This is my point - the assessor relies on the word of the builder with regard to building regs etc so the builder signs/declares and if its found not to comply at a later stage then the builder is held responsible. Surely the same applies to current householder to declare any improvements and then be held accountable in such circumstances??


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## theengineer (27 Jan 2009)

The whole thing is not very good.
How could one be an expert after 5 days of a course?
I spent weeks working with u-values, many years ago, and there is a bit in it.
Ok they use software.

The real joke is no one checks on the work of the builder.
I have encountered houses which were passed by engineers for loans, and had no insulation in the attic. There should be at least 12 inches there i think.

However the idea is good
It is way too expensive for a ber cert at present, 300 seems to be the price they charge, my feeling would be it should cost no more than 100.

Sorry ber guys, a 5 day course just is not good enough.
as regards the electrical controls is the heating system ,no one checks to see if they are even wired up.


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## Lak (27 Jan 2009)

3cc I do not use a paper clip to determine the value of an element but its depth, I calculate it by determining its composition and adding theese elements together to attain its U value,so a simple object like a paper clip works just fine, .... but then having said that so would a thermal imageing camera. Hmmmm decisions decisions.


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## 3CC (27 Jan 2009)

OK legs, I was being a bit glib - apologies. I just think that it is easy to work out the depth of insulation added but not the composition. You need to rely on the householder to be honest on this one. And I am not absolutely sure, but I do not thnk that a thermal imaging camera will give an accurate u value indication. More a tool for finding cold bridges etc.


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## sydthebeat (27 Jan 2009)

theengineer said:


> The whole thing is not very good.
> How could one be an expert after 5 days of a course?
> I spent weeks working with u-values, many years ago, and there is a bit in it.
> Ok they use software.
> ...



ok..people need to understand what the ideology behind the BER prpocess is...

if people want a service where the actual constructions in the walls are measured and analysised, they can, this is called an energy audit and can be done by many service providers out there.

if this service was the actual BER process it wuld cost people a fortune... they are already giving out about the average prices at the moment... imagine if the were 3-4 times these prices!!!

a ber cert is a tool for someone thinking about buying or renting a dwelling... thats all....
It is NOT a specific measurement of energy usage in a specific dwelling... its a comparitive tool used to do exactly that.. compare.

an A rated 3 bed semi that uses an immersion to heat all the hot water will always use more energy than a D rated one which doesnt... it does not measure specific performance... its measures a RATE which can the be used to compare with similar sized and aged dwellings.

When the NCT came in first people viewed it as a new 'tax', and they questioned the validity of the test..."sure, he didnt check my timing belt"... or "sure, he didnt check the clutch"... etc... stories about cars breaking down on the way out of the test centre were popular....

in time people will value the ber process... buying or renting will start with the obvious question "well, whats its BEr rating?"...


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## Bronte (28 Jan 2009)

sydthebeat said:


> It is NOT a specific measurement of energy usage in a specific dwelling...


 Forgive me but you've lost me here, I thought that was exactly what the BER was for?


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## Chocks away (28 Jan 2009)

Not an exact science, eh? Perhaps that is why they don't charge you an exact price. We got our place insulated and I took photos while the tradesman was doing it (he loved it, always asked for my hairbrush first). The place is very toasty, we followed all the SEI instructions and I'm sure it would be top rated but we don't need to do it. If we were selling up then I don't think I'd mind a few repairable mini holes. It should be well worth it for the extra money.


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## sydthebeat (28 Jan 2009)

Bronte said:


> Forgive me but you've lost me here, I thought that was exactly what the BER was for?



no its not...

The software make many assumptions based on standard usage... 

A BER is an assessment of a dwelling. It does not take any account of the energy usage behaviours of the current occupants of a dwelling. The calculation methodology makes certain assumptions about how the users of any particular dwelling would use water, heat, lighting etc.

therefore it will not give you a specific measurement of energy usage... it gives you a standard usage.

These assumption MUST be made in order to compare one dwelling with another


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## olddog (28 Jan 2009)

Why cant buildings be rated by experiment  - as in :

- Heat inside of building to 20C ( for example )  above ambient ( dont want to do this in summer ! ) 
- Turn off heat source
- Measure amount of time that it takes for temperature to fall by 10C ( for example ) above ambient

With this information a thermal time constant for the building can be computed

with a simple data logger it would be possible to monitor many rooms individually and so establish locations of 'warm' and 'cold' rooms


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## sydthebeat (28 Jan 2009)

olddog said:


> Why cant buildings be rated by experiment  - as in :
> 
> - Heat inside of building to 20C ( for example )  above ambient ( dont want to do this in summer ! )
> - Turn off heat source
> ...



the buildings are rated on energy usage and co2 emmissions

in your experiment, the fuel source for heating, and efficiency of heating source, isnt taken into account.. ....they must be....

what you are calculating is rate of heat loss, which depends on 3 things
1. insulation
2. air tightness
3. solar gains


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## 3CC (29 Jan 2009)

I received the following repsonse from SEI today. 

_Thank you for your e-mail._

_It may be best if you discussed this with a BER assessor (registered to assess all dwellings) prior to doing the work to ensure that you keep all necessary records for this particular dwelling to ensure that you obtain the best possible BER while sticking to the rules set out by SEI. The list of registered assessors is available under __http://193.178.2.42/SearchAssessors.aspx_

_For your own information the DEAP survey guide under __http://www.sei.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/DEAP/DEAP_2008/DEAP_2008_Survey_Guide.pdf__ details for BER assessors the type of information they would need when providing actual data (rather than the more pessimistic defaults) for a dwelling. _

_As a general comment, the more detail and record of the work done, the more likely a BER assessor will be able to legitimately provide credit for that work. _

_Apologies for the delay in replying to your query._

_Regards,_

_BER Helpdesk_
_Sustainable Energy Ireland_
_Telephone:1890 734 237_
_Email : __info@ber.sei.ie_
_Website: __www.sei.ie/ber_
_Sustainable Energy Ireland promotes and assists the development of sustainable energy. _
_SEI is funded by the Irish Government under the National Development Plan with programmes part financed by the European Union._

The link they quote is actually incorrect. Use this instead: 

[broken link removed]


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## PADDYBOY99 (29 Jan 2009)

theengineer said:


> The whole thing is not very good.
> How could one be an expert after 5 days of a course?
> I spent weeks working with u-values, many years ago, and there is a bit in it.
> Ok they use software.
> ...


 

Here's something that no one seems to be aware or no one has thought to mention. There is not a single assessor out there who has yet passed the SEI assessor exam. Reason being it has not been set yet!
I have to agree with theengineer there is a lot in it but it is too open to people who have no idea of what they are doing.


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## sydthebeat (29 Jan 2009)

PADDYBOY99 said:


> Here's something that no one seems to be aware or no one has thought to mention. There is not a single assessor out there who has yet passed the SEI assessor exam. Reason being it has not been set yet!
> I have to agree with theengineer there is a lot in it but it is too open to people who have no idea of what they are doing.



just to clarify....

assessors have been trained to do assessments on 'new' dwellings. This involves data gathering from plans and info provided, and input into software. In order to register as 'new dwelling' assessor that HAVE TO PASS an exam. So all registered assessor have passed an SEI exam on the DEAP.

Some assessors have done a follow-on 'existing' course, and most new assessors do both courses together. 

There is very little difference in the methodology between new and existing, its the data gathering that is different. An existing assessment requires an on site visit to confirm and clarify the input details.

Yes, it is correct to say that a national exam for assessors to become 'domestic energy assessors' (ie both new and existing) has not yet been scheduled, but that does not mean automatically that registered assessors are unable or incapable of carrying out a proper assessment.


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## PADDYBOY99 (30 Jan 2009)

This exam has not been set by SEI and will not be scheduled till at least April. Give them a buzz and they will confirm the same. 
The system is presently open to people giving ratings who know little or nothing about construction and building fabric.


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## picorette (3 Feb 2009)

olddog said:


> Why cant buildings be rated by experiment  - as in :
> 
> - Heat inside of building to 20C ( for example )  above ambient ( dont want to do this in summer ! )
> - Turn off heat source
> ...



Old Dog has a good point. Surely Existing Buildings should be assessed by how much heat / energy the envelope loses (together with how much is input), rather than  a standard value for dwellings of that era. What happens if it is non - standard construction?


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