# Forced into resigning due to inflexibility over childcare. Entitlements from welfare?



## Muns11 (30 Aug 2020)

I have been with my employer for nearly four years and have discovered over time just how unaccommodating they are. My husband has made all the changes thus far as his boss is very understanding. Since Covid and the return to childcare, our creche is operating on slightly reduced hours. They used to open until 6pm but with the return of schools they are closing at 5. 30 pm. I don't finish work until 5.30 so I asked my boss if I could forego my afternoon break and finish ten minutes early three days a week. I was refused straight out. 
My mother has been collecting them for the last few weeks but she's 74 with diabetes and a heart condition so it's not feasible long term. My husband is from the UK so I've no other family here. 
I feel I'm being forced to resign as I've no other choice. My children come first but I've no idea how we'll survive financially. Am I correct in presuming I won't qualify for any welfare payments if I leave of my own accord. Already spoken to Citizens Advice but I've no legal rights. 
Any advice welcome.


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## Blackrock1 (30 Aug 2020)

Just tell him you have no option, so he can come back to you with how best to work it to suit everyone , put it in his court.


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## Thirsty (30 Aug 2020)

I'm @Blackrock1 on this; don't ask permission, don't tell your life story.

Set out what you are going to do and confirm that you will meet all your deadlines / targets / projects (or however your work is measured)


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## Early Riser (30 Aug 2020)

In the event that you have to leave you should be entitled to Jobseeker's Benefit for up to 9 months. You would have to meet the requirements re PRSI contribution record (should not be a problem if working for 4 years). If you "leave work voluntarily without a good cause" you can be disqualified for the first 9 weeks of payment. However, if you show you have made every reasonable effort to sort out a solution with your employer I suspect this would not apply. You would be expected to be available for work and show that you are seeking alternative employment.






						Jobseeker's Benefit
					

This is a weekly payment to people who have lost their job and are covered by social insurance.




					www.citizensinformation.ie


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## Clamball (30 Aug 2020)

Is it your boss or is it your company?  If it is just your boss go over his head, to HR or to the owner.  Write down what you want, flexible working due to Covid restrictions in childcare.  

Can you start earlier, take a shorter lunch break?  Work later other days?   Forgoing tea break does not sound like a good option to me as morning and afternoon tea breaks are normally just 10 mins and they are not listed in your contract as breaks from work.   Your contract might say working from 9-1 and 1.30-5.30 to give a 40 hour work week.  No mention of tea breaks.  So something else should give.   Tell them how long you plan to work different hours.  If someone else in your company has flexible hours say you are being discriminated against because you are a parent.  Write down what you want, point out if there is obvious unfairness, say you will be commencing these hours on x date.  Ask for a reply in writing.  And then just do it.  Keep working, don’t leave.  Keep the wages coming in.  Look for alternate solutions.  Could another parent collect them along with their kids. Could you pay a neighbour to do it.  Several people in my company have had to change their working hours because the crèche changed.  It is happening everywhere. Just don’t quit.


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## DeeKie (30 Aug 2020)

Don’t quit. Come up with some alternatives. Start earlier?


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## EO2020 (30 Aug 2020)

Just do it anyway, and if they fire you, you will be entitled to Jobseekers. And possible take a case for unfair dismissal.....


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## Saavy99 (30 Aug 2020)

Muns11 said:


> so I asked my boss if I could forego my afternoon break and finish ten minutes early three days a week. I was refused straight out.



What a charming boss


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## fidelcastro (30 Aug 2020)

Definitely don't quit.  The ball is in their court, keep professional. If worse happens you will have earned some extra pay and they leave themselves wide open for unfair dismissal. 
Meanwhile look for another job if possible.


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## DeeKie (31 Aug 2020)

Don’t just do it anyway. Really try to work with your spouse / partner on alternative options and then put them to your boss.


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## Gordon Gekko (31 Aug 2020)

Do not resign under any circumstances.

I am not a lawyer but I have seen enough over the years to think that what your employer is doing to you here is not acceptable, especially in the ‘new world’.

Without giving too much away, what kind of work is it?

If it was me, I would consult with an employment lawyer ASAP and follow his/her advice to the letter.

If you can’t afford a lawyer, and if it was me, I would start doing it anyway.

Not allowing someone to leave 10 minutes early; I’ve never heard the like of it.

Again, I’m not a lawyer, but can you imagine a judge’s reaction to this in the post-Covid world we all live in?

“Three days a week Ms X came into work 10 minutes early and then left 10 minutes early to collect her children from creche and you fired her?”

It’s completely ridiculous; I cannot see how the employer can have a leg to stand on.

But in any event, what a lowlife.


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## Peanuts20 (31 Aug 2020)

Job hunt, try and find a new role where your employer is far more flexible. Enjoy watching your old boss struggle to hire anyone in this Covid normality.


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## Steven Barrett (31 Aug 2020)

Peanuts20 said:


> Job hunt, try and find a new role where your employer is far more flexible. Enjoy watching your old boss struggle to hire anyone in this Covid normality.



Agree 100% with this post. You don't have a long term future in this company if your boss is like this. They will end up causing you stress if they haven't already. 

There are so many employers who realise that if they treat their employees well, they get more back. Treat your employees badly and you get the minimum in return. 

Don't resign and put yourself under financial pressure over 10 minutes, 3 days a week. Work though all the possible solutions and don't be afraid to point out the unreasonableness to your boss.


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## LS400 (31 Aug 2020)

I wouldn't be too quick to condemn this Boss.

Circumstances out side his control have changed. He didn't change them. The creche Did. 

Its always the advice to run to the courts if The Boss, Company etc: dont change their plans to suit/fit in with the "worker" Give me a break.

If my Employee at the front desk had to leave 10/15 minutes early, it would make no difference coming in earlier or working through their break, Id still have to shut the office down when they left, of fill in myself.

So Id want to know more about the situation before sticking it to this Boss.


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## jim (31 Aug 2020)

what more is there to know LS400. Person with childacre needs asks boss to leave few mins early, boss says no. terrible carry on by the bossman.


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## becky (31 Aug 2020)

jim said:


> what more is there to know LS400. Person with childacre needs asks boss to leave few mins early, boss says no. terrible carry on by the bossman.


There may be others in the company who may need time off for childcare. 

If it's a front facing role there may not be anyone to do it. 

I would say everyone would happily give up afternoon tea break to leave early for no reduction in pay if offered. 

I like more information before I recommend she takes the employer to the labour court.


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## David_Dublin (31 Aug 2020)

Dont leave the job without finding another, or without being fired. Don't offer to leave.


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## SPC100 (31 Aug 2020)

Without knowing the effect on the company of ten minutes earlier it is hard to judge. But it sounds very unreasonable. What size company/org is it. Any hr policies for covid?

I wouldn't quit.

I would tell my boss that I will escalate the issue if they can't give the ok. Then I'd go to HR, their boss another boss in company etc


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## SPC100 (31 Aug 2020)

Also Start putting it in writing and keep notes of meetings


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## jim (1 Sep 2020)

@becky 
I could be wrong but i see those issues you pointed out as the employers problem not the employees. If employee needs ro leave 10 mins early each day for whatever reason then the employer simply should accomodate this. If it impacts thwir business in some way they need to find a solution, they cant be that dependant on 1 person, if they are then thats a big risk for them as a business


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## LS400 (1 Sep 2020)

jim said:


> I could be wrong but i see those issues you pointed out as the employers problem not the employees



Your right, you're  completely wrong.




jim said:


> If employee needs to leave 10 mins early each day for whatever reason then the employer simply should accommodate this



You would have to see this written sentence to believe you actually said it.




jim said:


> they cant be that dependent on 1 person,



You really have be cocooning in your career. Now I could be wrong, but, do you or did you, work in the Private sector? Because, thats the sort on nonsense you may expect in the Public Sector.


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## jim (1 Sep 2020)

It depends on the business I suppose. For me, a good boss or employer would grant this kind of flexibility where possible.its in the employers interest to keep employee happy.


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## Muns11 (1 Sep 2020)

Thanks for all the replies. Still no further along but it's a family run business so no further to go, no HR. It's not even been mentioned again and they simply believe my problem has gone away. Although, they did tell to "push the creche" to see if they would wait on for me! 
It's quite possible for me to go as the business remains open until six anyway without me there. 
What is bothering me is we are all making sacrifices and being flexible in these unprecedented times and there should be a bit of give. Especially as they are getting help in the form of the wage subsidy scheme so in actual fact the government are paying the bulk of my wages at present! 
I have spoken to Citizens Advice and a local TD who is going to raise the issue of solidarity with employees and flexibility around working hours with Leo Varadkar. 
Have applied for several jobs so fingers crossed I get sorted soon as I have a brother off work this week who is helping out but next week I don't know what I'll do!


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## gianni (1 Sep 2020)

Muns11 said:


> I have spoken to Citizens Advice and a local TD who is going to raise the issue of solidarity with employees and flexibility around working hours with Leo Varadkar.



Hope you get sorted but I'm not sure that a TD, let alone the Tánaiste(!), is the best person to seek assistance from.

A solicitor with experience in employment law is a better bet, if you feel you need external help.


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## Gordon Gekko (1 Sep 2020)

Without giving too much away, what do you do?

e.g. do you man reception? Are you office based? Do you work in retail?


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## DeeKie (1 Sep 2020)

Do you know any parents in the Creche? Someone might take your children to their house if they lived nearby. There is a recession here / coming. I would not recommend moving jobs.


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## cremeegg (2 Sep 2020)

Interesting conflict of views here.

Have you thought through what issues your leaving early might cause your employer, and how you or they might address these.


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## EO2020 (2 Sep 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Interesting conflict of views here.
> 
> Have you thought through what issues your leaving early might cause your employer, and how you or they might address these.



You can see from OP's post that she has, and that there is nothing to address


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## Sarenco (2 Sep 2020)

It seems very odd to me that the crèche has brought its closing time forward to 5.30pm - that's going to be challenging for a lot of working parents.

I really don't see any point in consulting a solicitor - all the employer has done so far is to insist that the OP works her contracted hours.

Also, the employer may be concerned that offering flexibility to one employee may cause issues with other employees -

"It's not fair that @Muns11 gets to go home 10 minutes early every day!"


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## cremeegg (2 Sep 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Have you thought through what issues your leaving early might cause your employer, and how you or they might address these.





EO2020 said:


> You can see from OP's post that she has, and that there is nothing to address



Not that I can see.


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## Thirsty (2 Sep 2020)

OP has said that if the place of employment is open until 6pm, so even when they leave at 5:30pm (the usual time), some one else is still on the premises from 5:30-6pm.  

Many child care places have changed hours, this isn't the first one I've heard of; and yes it's a challenge, as the last 6 months have been for all parents of young children.

Again OP - tell your employer what you are doing and do it.  No need for long explanations or permission.  You're an adult and can be expected to do your job in a responsible fashion.


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## cremeegg (2 Sep 2020)

Thirsty said:


> OP has said that if the place of employment is open until 6pm, so even when they leave at 5:30pm (the usual time), some one else is still on the premises from 5:30-6pm.


That is a childish level of analysis of the situation, nearly everyone works with some one else on the premises, unless the OP works alone there is likely to someone else on the premises all day. That doesnt mean they could or should do the OPS job. The issue is does the job need to be done up until closing time, that question has not been addressed.


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## PaddyBloggit (2 Sep 2020)

cremeegg said:


> The issue is does the job need to be done up until closing time, that question has not been addressed.



Surely it has been...



Muns11 said:


> I asked my boss if I could forego my afternoon break and finish ten minutes early three days a week. I was refused straight out.



As they are running the business, surely they are best placed to make a managerial decision?


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## becky (3 Sep 2020)

EO2020 said:


> You can see from OP's post that she has, and that there is nothing to address


Not in my view. She offered to forgoe her afternoon coffee break. Not a big deal deal at all.


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## becky (3 Sep 2020)

gianni said:


> Hope you get sorted but I'm not sure that a TD, let alone the Tánaiste(!), is the best person to seek assistance from.
> 
> A solicitor with experience in employment law is a better bet, if you feel you need external help.


The TD / tanaiste is free. Well I suppose they are.


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## becky (3 Sep 2020)

jim said:


> It depends on the business I suppose. For me, a good boss or employer would grant this kind of flexibility where possible.its in the employers interest to keep employee happy.



'where possible' . That's important here. There seems to be an assumption from a lot of posters that it is 'possible'.

The OP has told us it's a family business. 

That's enough for me.


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## Hooverfish (3 Sep 2020)

OP - if you are on the Wage Subsidy Scheme I suggest that you contact your Employability/DEASP contact who set that up for you. Each branch has a number of advisors, at least one, possibly not the one you dealt with directly, has good expertise around persuading employers to offer flexibility to you. If you do not get on with your nominated advisor, ask to speak to the manager of the Employer/DEASP branch (you do not have to give a reason in making the request), and then explain the situation. Employers are generally quite afeared of the DEASP so a contact back to them by this route is likely to be listened to.


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## Peanuts20 (3 Sep 2020)

Sarenco said:


> It seems very odd to me that the crèche has brought its closing time forward to 5.30pm - that's going to be challenging for a lot of working parents.
> 
> I really don't see any point in consulting a solicitor - all the employer has done so far is to insist that the OP works her contracted hours.
> 
> ...



That's happening in a lot of places. In my own case, I'm trying to be as flexible as I can but I have 1 or 2 people who have genuine underlying medical conditions that they don't want to jeopardise themselves but are working from home and being productive. I know the issue but obviously cannot tell their colleagues who for various reasons I need in the building and they don't want to share their medical conditions with some others in the office so overall it is causing me some angst but it is far less hassle then making someone seriously ill. As a people manager, the one thing I can say for certain is that I can't win with some people


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## Feemar5 (4 Sep 2020)

It seems very unreasonable but while you are looking for another job could you suggest to your employer that you are prepared to take the time upaid as you cannot leave  your children on the street and maybe he will relent.


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