# Warning to landlords considering HAP tenants



## landlord

Four of my properties now house HAP tenants. Two started off as HAP tenants and two migrated onto the HAP scheme after a few years.
Firstly the paperwork involved is time consuming, including proof of ownership, proof of bank account, tax compliance certificate etc....
Rent paid is in arreas not in advance, so it appears you initially miss out on a months rent.
Soon after the tenants move in a company called inspex.ie start hounding you for an inspection, which is a requirement for the HAP.
It started out as confirmation that the fire blanket was in place, heat detector and carbon monoxide alarms were fitted and the BER cert was completed.
This was an additional cost to rectify but it was done without complaint. So I thought that was that.
No!!!
Then inspex.ie said they need to see a gas service certificate....I normally get this done every other year as recommended by my Gas man....
Fine another cost!!!!
However after a reinspection I get an email from them yesterday with a 5 PAGE list of outstanding items to rectify on an apartment approximately 15 years old, including items as stupid as some vinyl around the kitchen cupboard doors peeling off presenting a health and safety hazard.
Also issues over,
bathroom ventilation (all the bathrooms currently have standard vents which is not sufficient),
Bathroom lights not suitable,
Issues with window restrictors Etc.....

I feel like I have been sucked in by the HAP and never would have gone down this route if I’d known how strict they were.
I know I am going to get abuse from tenants regarding maintaining my property to the highest possible standards, however I feel that getting this information out there will help landlords and potential landlords make an important “commercial” decision about whether to accept HAP tenants.

and Landlords be warned if you havnt been inspected yet, their is an indpex.ie inspector lurking around the corner ready to pounce!!!!


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## Bronte

Very interesting.  I have tenancies in HAP and I've never been inspected ever.  Never heard of inspex.  I think now if they come knocking at my door I'll do the important stuff and be slow to do the other stuff.  5 pages, can you post the letter up on here please as that would be very helpful to me and others to know what it is they look for - so I can take account of it when sending in repair men or doing renovations etc. 

What's wrong with the bathroom light?

Can you post up a picture of the vinyl to give us an idea of what nitpicking is going on - or not.  I've no quibble about fire saftety stuff or the gas stuff.  And of course some of my tenants took out the batteries in the alarms.  I've it in mind to switch to the new types, off the mains as that seems to be a better job and I've done this in one property last year as I had an electrician in to fix some things.


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## Bronte

Just see now that you mentioned BER.  That I've so far never had done.  And I don't recall anything in the HAP documents about a company calles inspex.

5 pages on a 15 year old apartment.  Wonder how many pages I'd get on one property more than 100 years old.  Dread to think.

Who is Inspex does anyone know?

The rent in arrears is easily solved by getting the tenant to pay an extra months deposit.


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## Romulan

It is as you say, a commercial decision.

So if a tenant requested HAP, I'd be inclined to ask HAP to inspect the property first, give me a list of issues, and only then would I decide whether to accept or not.

I'm presuming that you can do this as a landlord?


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## Bronte

I just looked again at my HAP documentation.  Clause 3 says that they will carry out an inspection within 8 months of the HAP starting.  And that one must comply with the 2008 Housing regulations.

Says the inspection will be carried out by the local authority (ie the city council).  Well it would seem to me they're not complying with themselves as they carried out no inspection. I wonder is it because the tenants were moved into HAP rather than being new tenants.

And I signed an application document certifying I'm tax compliant etc plus that I reach the standards for rented houses which says the LA will carry out an inspection in due course.  Never happened.  First payment from HAP was in 2016.  I remember the lady high up in HAP on the phone with me begging me not to give up now (as the procedure was driving me crazy and I nearly gave up - told them they could house the tenants themselves at one stage - that's how bad it was).

But I'm delighted now.  And they keep 20% tax as I'm non resident so that's very helpful as I don't have to face a big bill from revenue.


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## T McGibney

Bronte said:


> And they keep 20% tax as I'm non resident so that's very helpful as I don't have to face a big bill from revenue.



If you've appointed a Collection Agent and duly registered them with Revenue, the council are exceeding their legal powers in so doing.


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## Bronte

Tommy I believe you are correct but not on the basis of what you wrote.  I don't have my agent (relations) registered with revenue as the rent comes to me in 3 ways, DD, Hap payments and cash rent lodged to the one (rental) account.  So on that ground I fail. 

But the legality of how the LA/HAP can deduct the 20% is unclear to me.  In their contract they state that non residents landlords must have their rental income deducted by 20% by the *tenant.*  But my tenants are not the LA/HAB.  And the tenants themselves don't get the HAB payment so they can't possible deduct it. Instead HAB has decided to deduct it themselves - but I think that is illegal. 

Not that it bothers me as I said.


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## Sue Ellen

landlord said:


> Then inspex.ie said they need to see a gas service certificate....I normally get this done every other year as recommended by my Gas man....



Obviously I'm not qualified like your Gas man but would have to disagree with him on every two years servicing.  Every year is the standard.  What you save on service fee you will lose out on in extra fuel consumption.  Its also safer for your tenants to have it checked out each year even if you do have carbon monoxide alarms.


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## Bronte

I see from my IPOA newletter that under the Equal Status Acts one can no discriminate on the usual ground, but also a new ground

- the housing assistance ground - and only as regards accommodation

That sounds like HAP to me.


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## noproblem

Bronte said:


> And of course some of my tenants took out the batteries in the alarms.  I've it in mind to switch to the new types, off the mains as that seems to be a better job and I've done this in one property last year as I had an electrician in to fix some things.



Just wondering Bronte about those alarms direct from the mains as I've them fitted in properties and lo and behold they have needed batteries fitted when going off after about 18 months. Couldn't believe it, so when I saw your piece about fitting them  I thought i'd put this here. Got the work done by an electrician I use a lot, genuine pro and haven't had a chat with him yet. Is this the usual thing? By the way i'm another who has never had an inspection and have been told by "insiders" that the council are just delighted that landlords (hate that title) are providing the service of letting to the tenants.


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## elcato

noproblem said:


> Just wondering Bronte about those alarms direct from the mains as I've them fitted in properties and lo and behold they have needed batteries fitted when going off after about 18 months. Couldn't believe it, so when I saw your piece about fitting them I thought i'd put this here. Got the work done by an electrician I use a lot, genuine pro and haven't had a chat with him yet. Is this the usual thing?


Yes. The battery is a secondary power in case the electrics blow because of fire. I wouldn't bother getting mains done for this reason.


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## Palerider

Some of these alarms are wired back to the house alarm and when triggered the house alarm can sound but the siren is different to the burglar alarm siren to indicate a fire.

Secondary battery back up to the mains is a good idea, easy to change yourself, no need for an electrician.


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## Bronte

I remember reading somewhere recently that the new regulations compel us to have the mains ones. I've it down as a big job for this year.  And I think they also have a battery solely as back up.

But I'm not sure what noproblem means about the battery fitted after 18 months. In my case when inspecting last year I noticed my battery only smoke alarms were hanging off the ceiling or open - batteries removed as they had gone off.  I don't understand tenants doing this and leaving it like this.  So I'm moving to the mains and getting a guy in to make sure I comply with all the latest regulations.


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## noproblem

In my case, I had the alarms wired to the mains but they also had a battery fitted. The battery ran its life after 18 months and started "squealing" every few minutes that required a new battery. Hope that makes it easier for you to understand Bronte. In other words, I found it irritating and annoying and had no idea the mains alarm also had a battery fitted.


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## elcato

Bronte - You might consider 10 year batteryless fire alarms, Double the price of a normal one but solves the squealing battery is dead problem for 10 years.


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## cremeegg

Romulan said:


> So if a tenant requested HAP, I'd be inclined to ask HAP to inspect the property first, give me a list of issues, and only then would I decide whether to accept or not.
> 
> I'm presuming that you can do this as a landlord?



I thought I could do this. However it seems that the council can come and inspect at anytime after the lease starts and produce a new list.

I had an inspection in January, a council employee not a third party. He mentioned some very minor details in conversation at the time, vinyl on kitchen was one. However its now July and no sign of a report. I will worry about it when it comes.


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## noproblem

cremeegg said:


> I thought I could do this. However it seems that the council can come and inspect at anytime after the lease starts and produce a new list.
> 
> I had an inspection in January, a council employee not a third party. He mentioned some very minor details in conversation at the time, vinyl on kitchen was one. However its now July and no sign of a report. I will worry about it when it comes.



A lot of these so called inspectors just go around and feel they haven't the job done unless they have a list of "Have to do's". Most of the councils know full well the job landlords are doing which they themselves should be doing.


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## Galwayman123

I can only say that this is 100 % correct what landlord says. I had very similar experience. I am seriously considering getting out of the rental market. I did up the house and then had an inspection after HAP. The list was endless. The person was extremely picky. He even had a problem with the garden wall and some hedging that was not disposed from the tenants. 
It will cost me a lot of money to have the house HAP ready. (It is a beautiful nice house, with new heating etc, all new floors etc.) It is no suprise that landlords are running away from the rental market. It does not make any sense that they make it so hard for landlords because of the shortage and all the homeless people. However it seems to be not only that HAP tenancies are inspected. There is so much red tape nowadays. Normal tenancies are also inspected to the same standards. After paying all my taxes and renovation costs there is no money left in the letting. I wish the politicians would cop on. We will have a situation where more and more people are left homeless because landlords are getting scared and are leaving the market.


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## galway_blow_in

I haven't disclosed it to the forum but I bought a cheap townhouse in Limerick at the beginning of the year, I've leased it to the local authority for ten years and the rent is 850 per month, had to buy all new furniture and appliances as well as some electrical upgrades  cost 83 k all in with no mortgage.

I actually found the inspection OK,  maybe I was lucky but the local authority engineer was very reasonable, one area I disagreed with strongly however was around ventilation, I fitted window trickle vents but they wouldn't accept them so I had to fit two slate vents on the roof and pipe down through attic as walls are stone so no way waa I drilling there, even the roofer who did the job told me damp cold air coming in will cause condensation in the Duct pipe and eventually create problems in the attic.

The problem with these inspections are they crudely use a one size fits all approach and old houses just can't meet modern day standards to an identical level.

Ps

I don't even know who lives in the house, my tenant is the council, not the Hap scheme but rental standards are the same I'm told.


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## Sconeandjam

galway_blow_in said:


> I don't even know who lives in the house, my tenant is the council, not the Hap scheme but rental standards are the same I'm told.



I think you are on something like RAS and they could have put it under the HAP scheme.

I heard there is a 22 page document that is used to inspect the house under HAP and the inspector basically ticks off the list. Any house not built before 2016 will fail the inspection.
Do the council want their tenants housed or not? 

If you put extra vents in the tenant will fill with socks and clothing. The landlords are doing the council a favour housing the tenant and they have huge costs just to put to 2016 building code. The tenant will have to leave while changes are being made  and in that case the tenant will not get back in.


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## galway_blow_in

Sconeandjam said:


> I think you are on something like RAS and they could have put it under the HAP scheme.
> 
> I heard there is a 22 page document that is used to inspect the house under HAP and the inspector basically ticks off the list. Any house not built before 2016 will fail the inspection.
> Do the council want their tenants housed or not?
> 
> If you put extra vents in the tenant will fill with socks and clothing. The landlords are doing the council a favour housing the tenant and they have huge costs just to put to 2016 building code. The tenant will have to leave while changes are being made  and in that case the tenant will not get back in.



its not RAS , what im in is the long term lease scheme , you take a 20% below market rate but i argued with the council in favour of a high market rate , didnt think they would agree to such a reference point but they did so i receive 850 per month , i have no dealings with the tenants and once january 27th arrives ( six months from commencement of lease ) , im not even responsible for electrical appliances , painting or furniture which breaks , i am responsible for structural maintainance , property tax and insurance .

sticking to the point ,i was failed the first day but he came back within a week once i notified him that i had carried the requested improvements ,  i think it might be the luck of the draw as to who you get , inspector i had was a very nice man and very reasonable , even fitting the duct pipe through attic and fitting two slate vents wasnt especially expensive , i just think its the wrong decision , inspector is only working off someone elses rule book , most of them hammer you on ventilation , my guy accepted that the living room downstairs would have to do with trickle vents as i couldnt vent it through the attic and two drilling companies i asked , refused to drill through stone  , the rest of the downstairs area is open plan and the kitchen is a block built new extension so wall vents not a problem .

i saw no 22 page document or anything like it , again i guess i was lucky who visited me .


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## Leo

galway_blow_in said:


> its not RAS , what im in is the long term lease scheme



Completely different schemes there, but I've never seen the long terms lease standards or inspection sheets, so can't comment on that aspect. 

One very significant difference though, in the long term lease scheme the LA is the landlord, so they are legally responsible for ensuring the property is maintained to minimum standards. With HAP, it is the home owner. My guess is LA employed inspectors won't be quite as demanding when inspecting properties the LA are responsible for maintaining.


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## galway_blow_in

Leo said:


> Completely different schemes there, but I've never seen the long terms lease standards or inspection sheets, so can't comment on that aspect.
> 
> One very significant difference though, in the long term lease scheme the LA is the landlord, so they are legally responsible for ensuring the property is maintained to minimum standards. With HAP, it is the home owner. My guess is LA employed inspectors won't be quite as demanding when inspecting properties the LA are responsible for maintaining.



Could well be,  I've only the one single residential property but we're I to buy another ( no plans currently), I think I would go with the long term lease option again, way I see it the state has so much power over property now, you might as well have the state as tenant

I bought in a disadvantaged area so did not want dealings with tenants, only been five months but no issues so far


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## Leo

galway_blow_in said:


> I think I would go with the long term lease option again



Yep, that lowers the management burden on you while also avoiding the uncertainties around HAP requirements.


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## landlord

Update.....
Since I originally wrote this post six months ago I have ignored the second “extreme” list of corrective action and have heard nothing from them. 
Strange??!!


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## Magpie

Most inspections throughout the country are done by the council inspector, and its a very basic check that the house meets the same standards for ALL rented properties. There are no extra standards for HAP housing, as some landlords claim.

Your claim that you lose rent is also bogus. HAP is paid in arrears but landlords can and always do ask the tenants for the deposit and the first month up front, which they cover themselves, and then the arrears of Hap are used for the next month. So you are in a better position  than non HAP landlords as you are guaranteed the last months rent, where you would not be otherwise. 

If you have a demand to improve your property it means you are below the minimum legal standard for all rented dwellings and that's on you, its no-one elses fault or problem that you have not managed to provide the low minimum legal standards without being forced to do so. 

As for warning other landlords off from HAP tenancies, I hope you and they know that it is illegal to discriminate against HAP tenants? Am surprised the website allows this...


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## Magpie

Sconeandjam said:


> .
> 
> I heard there is a 22 page document that is used to inspect the house under HAP and the inspector basically ticks off the list. Any house not built before 2016 will fail the inspection.
> Do the council want their tenants housed or not?



You hear wrong. I have it in front of me, its 7 pages long and minimal. Inspection takes ten minutes and most pass.


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## Leo

Magpie said:


> Your claim that you lose rent is also bogus. HAP is paid in arrears but landlords can and always do ask the tenants for the deposit and the first month up front, which they cover themselves, and then the arrears of Hap are used for the next month. So you are in a better position  than non HAP landlords as you are guaranteed the last months rent, where you would not be otherwise.



I don't believe you can legally ask for a double payment for the first month. This would also not apply in cases where a tenancy switches to HAP shortly after moving in, this happens quite a bit as tenants who can afford the extra up-front are afraid to mention HAP prior to occupying the property. 



Magpie said:


> If you have a demand to improve your property it means you are below the minimum legal standard for all rented dwellings and that's on you, its no-one elses fault or problem that you have not managed to provide the low minimum legal standards without being forced to do so.



I've only seen a couple of reports, and as you say, they are fairly short but they are open to interpretation and I have seen a demand for CO2 detectors in an apartment with no source of open combustion which is in excess of housing regs.


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## robert 200

I was asked by a DCC inspector to provide fire evacuation plans for all 4 apartments in a 2 story house. I was also asked to remove smoke detectors with 10 year battery life and 
replace them with mains operated detectors. Total cost €1200 . This is nonsense - I dont deal with HAP anymore because of this.


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## cremeegg

Magpie said:


> Most inspections throughout the country are done by the council inspector, and its a very basic check that the house meets the same standards for ALL rented properties. There are no extra standards for HAP housing, as some landlords claim.



You seem very certain of yourself. You don't tell us the basis of your experience with HAP or related inspections.

Meeting standards can in many instances be a matter of interpretation.

I had a pre-Hap inspection and a number of issues were addressed. A few years later I had a second inspection and a number of issues were identified which had been unchanged since the original inspection. The adherence to standard or otherwise had not changed, but the inspectors interpretation had.


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## The Horseman

Magpie said:


> You hear wrong. I have it in front of me, its 7 pages long and minimal. Inspection takes ten minutes and most pass.


Care to share the requirements.


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## cremeegg

The Horseman said:


> Care to share the requirements.



Sorry Horseman, this is a distraction. The applicable standards are set out in the 

HOUSING (STANDARDS FOR RENTED HOUSES) REGULATIONS 2017 
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/17/made/en/pdf

Any checklist an inspector may have for his own use has no legal standing.


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## Bronte

Leo said:


> I don't believe you can legally ask for a double payment for the first month. This would also not apply in cases where a tenancy switches to HAP shortly after moving in, this happens quite a bit as tenants who can afford the extra up-front are afraid to mention HAP prior to occupying the property.
> 
> .



There is nothing stopping you having two months deposit.

My tenant were moved into HAP.Once I realised this would be rent in arrears the tenant's had to pay me an extra month so that I had a deposit. The tenants paid it over time to make it easier for them.


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## Bronte

Magpie said:


> If you have a demand to improve your property it means you are below the minimum legal standard for all rented dwellings and that's on you, its no-one elses fault or problem that you have not managed to provide the low minimum legal standards without being forced to do so.



Then how do you account for one landlord having to do stupid venting and another being given out to for vinyl flooring.


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## Bronte

robert 200 said:


> I was asked by a DCC inspector to provide fire evacuation plans for all 4 apartments in a 2 story house. I was also asked to remove smoke detectors with 10 year battery life and
> replace them with mains operated detectors. Total cost €1200 . This is nonsense - I dont deal with HAP anymore because of this.



Can you breakdown those figures. I got  my electrician to put in a mains battery when he was doing some work for me and it didn't cost anything like the amount you paid.


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## Leo

Bronte said:


> There is nothing stopping you having two months deposit.
> 
> My tenant were moved into HAP.Once I realised this would be rent in arrears the tenant's had to pay me an extra month so that I had a deposit. The tenants paid it over time to make it easier for them.



Correct, but that wasn't the situation suggested in the post I was replying to. Asking for an additional month's deposit during an established tenancy could be problematic.


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## The Horseman

cremeegg said:


> Sorry Horseman, this is a distraction. The applicable standards are set out in the
> 
> HOUSING (STANDARDS FOR RENTED HOUSES) REGULATIONS 2017
> http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/17/made/en/pdf
> 
> Any checklist an inspector may have for his own use has no legal standing.



Correct me if I am wrong but these are the standards for rental accommodation, the standards for HAP are greater than these and I wanted to see a copy of the checklist for HAP.


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## Bronte

Leo said:


> Correct, but that wasn't the situation suggested in the post I was replying to. Asking for an additional month's deposit during an established tenancy could be problematic.



In what way problematic? I'm happy, HAP is happy and the tenant is happy.


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## Leo

Bronte said:


> In what way problematic? I'm happy, HAP is happy and the tenant is happy.



It's a breech of the terms of your contract. A provision to limit deposits to one month is also included in the measures Eoghan Murphy is seeking to introduce.


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## Bronte

Leo said:


> It's a breech of the terms of your contract. A provision to limit deposits to one month is also included in the measures Eoghan Murphy is seeking to introduce.



No it's not. It's supposed to be one months deposit and rent in advance. HAP pays me in arrears.  They broke my contract with the tenant.  In any case if we all agree we can modify a contract.

Also speaking of illegality, HAP are illegally withholding 20% of the rent. 

I'm aware that Threshold wishs the minister to make it one month's deposit. I think three months is fairer because of the damage some tenant's do. I've no issue with a deposit scheme. Because I bet anything landlords like me who don't make deductions from deposits will be the winners.


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## cremeegg

The Horseman said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but these are the standards for rental accommodation, the standards for HAP are greater than these and I wanted to see a copy of the checklist for HAP.



I don't think that there are different standards for HAP. When I had an inspection, the report referred to the quoted standards only.


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## Leo

Bronte said:


> In any case if we all agree we can modify a contract.



Just have that in writing to cover yourself.



Bronte said:


> Also speaking of illegality, HAP are illegally withholding 20% of the rent.



I'm not sure what that refers to.



Bronte said:


> I'm aware that Threshold wishs the minister to make it one month's deposit. I think three months is fairer because of the damage some tenant's do. I've no issue with a deposit scheme. Because I bet anything landlords like me who don't make deductions from deposits will be the winners.



The proposals still seem to include references to assigning authority to the PRTB to limit the deposit to a single month. I don't think any deposit scheme they bring in will ever allow 3 months as that would be seen as a barrier to HAP tenants. But such a scheme, while adding overheads, if managed fairly should eliminate many of the current disputes that end up before the PRTB. The proposals do include moving to an annual registration process and fee to cover the increased administration and allow the PRTB to become self-financing.


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## PaxmanK

Im aware of a situation where the landlord asked the tenant would they require hap when they moved in.  The tenant said no.  Tenant paid deposit and first month's rent in advance. No sooner were they in than they said they actually needed hap.

The landlord gave them their notice for basically lying and obtaining the property by deception.

And now it's going through the RTB.  In the meantime inspectors came out and issued the famous list of repairs that will cost thousands.


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## Bronte

Leo said:


> Just have that in writing to cover yourself.
> 
> I'm not sure what that refers to.
> 
> 
> The proposals still seem to include references to assigning authority to the PRTB to limit the deposit to a single month. I don't think any deposit scheme they bring in will ever allow 3 months as that would be seen as a barrier to HAP tenants. But such a scheme, while adding overheads, if managed fairly should eliminate many of the current disputes that end up before the PRTB. The proposals do include moving to an annual registration process and fee to cover the increased administration and allow the PRTB to become self-financing.



I have zero in writing.

Non resident landlords get 20% of the rent held back by HAP. I believe they have no legal right to do so. Because it’s supposed to be the tenant who deducts it. HAP is not the tenant. But the tenant doesn’t get the rent. So the tenant can’t deduct it. The withheld 20% is a credit against that years tax.  Actually HAP have even the 20% wrong. Because the tenant pays some rent too. To the council.

So the RTB is expanding and the costs for landlords to run it are increasing. They recently changed registrations from 4 years to 6 and now they’re going to give us all more administration with yearly registrations.

As I said I’ve no issue with a deposit scheme. It will stop rogue landlords. But ultimately we will get to keep more of the deposit. You’d be amazed what Irish get away without paying as landlords just accept it. Here on the continent you get a massive bill if you leave a painting hole on the wall or a tiny scratch on a floor.  There’s even the height of the hedge to be the same as when you rented. No problems as regards furniture though, as most everywhere is let unfurnished.


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## Gordon Gekko

The world has gone mad. If a landlord wants to charge 6 months’ rent, use AirBnB, or ban HAP tenants, he/she should be free to do so.


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## Bronte

Gordon Gekko said:


> The world has gone mad. If a landlord wants to charge 6 months’ rent, use AirBnB, or ban HAP tenants, he/she should be free to do so.


Many students accommodations charge rent in two moities. Up front. And we all know why.

If they bring in a new deposit law we can just demand three months rent up front constantly to get around it.

I agree with you about the Air B&B.

And disagree about HAP. People shouldn’t be discriminated against.


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## Gordon Gekko

Bronte said:


> Many students accommodations charge rent in two monites. Up front. And we all know why.
> 
> If they bring in a new deposit law we can just demand three months rent up front constantly to get around it.
> 
> I agree with you about the Air B&B.
> 
> And disagree about HAP. People shouldn’t be discriminated against.



Charles Hurst discriminate against me though. I want to buy an Italian sports car and they keep demanding money for it which I don’t have.


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## PaxmanK

Gordon Gekko said:


> Charles Hurst discriminate against me though. I want to buy an Italian sports car and they keep demanding money for it which I don’t have.




Get one of those price controlled Italian sports cars.  They can only charge you the same price as the Nissan Micra for sale beside it.  And if you are really clever make sure you buy one from a garage which was selling them at a discount the day before the sports car price control came in.
Oh and them just stop paying for it as soon as you get it.  Free car for a couple of years. Then you can rinse and repeat.


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## lff12

I think what you might be hitting here is changes to build standards/codes and PRTB/HAP standards over 15 years.
You will probably find that many owner occupied homes build more than 10 years ago wouldn't meet HAP standards.


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## Purple

There's no way the house I rent would meet RTB standards. I wouldn't expect my landlord to spend what it would cost to bring it up to specification. I pay low rent. He's a nice guy. I expect him to cover reasonable repairs etc but it's an old house and I don't expect it to be perfect.


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## Magpie

The Horseman said:


> Correct me if I am wrong but these are the standards for rental accommodation, the standards for HAP are greater than these and I wanted to see a copy of the checklist for HAP.



You are wrong, they are the exact same standards. There is no checklist for HAP, there is only the standards for rental accommodation.


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## Fredmck

I am due a HAP inspection. Is there anything I need to do up front? I was told that I need a Gas and Electricity certificate ? is this correct?


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## cremeegg

Fredmck said:


> I am due a HAP inspection. Is there anything I need to do up front? I was told that I need a Gas and Electricity certificate ? is this correct?



I would ask the council on what basis this has been requested. They cannot request a cert unless there is a requirement for you to provide one.

The relevant legislation is 
HOUSING (STANDARDS FOR RENTED HOUSES) REGULATIONS 2017 
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/17/made/en/pdf

and in my opinion that does not say that you need any Gas or Electricity cert.

Please let us know how you get on.


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## RedOnion

Bronte said:


> Non resident landlords get 20% of the rent held back by HAP. I believe they have no legal right to do so. Because it’s supposed to be the tenant who deducts it. HAP is not the tenant. But the tenant doesn’t get the rent. So the tenant can’t deduct it. The withheld 20% is a credit against that years tax. Actually HAP have even the 20% wrong. Because the tenant pays some rent too. To the council.


I'm pretty sure they have legal grounds to make the deduction.

I don't believe the legislation mentions the 'tenant'. The guidance notes might, but the tax consolidation act refers to the person making the payment. Well technically 'by or through', which covers the situation where rent is paid to an Irish agent. It would also cover HAP deducting the 20% from the rent that the tenant pays to them.


----------



## plant43

I've had HAP tenants since it first became available in 2015/6 (can't remember exact date). Just had first inspection, only items of concern were gas boiler service and CO alarms. I ordered 3 CO alarms from Amazon for 45 euro and arranged that boiler service so that should be that hopefully. 

Also I live overseas but get the full rent paid direct to me. I still do my taxes every year as required.


----------



## Laura-Ashley

I am completing my thesis on the topic of HAP and would appreciate if anybody who was interested could contact me so I could get your input into the above. There's been a lot of negativity directed at landlords who won't accept HAP and I want to speak to someone who would give their side of the story from a landlord's perspective. If that doesn't interest you then please ignore this, otherwise you can contact me via my account name.   Thanks for your time.


----------



## robert 200

If a HAP tenant stops making their agreed contribution to the relevant council then HAP will immediately stop paying the landlord. This is a fact. You are then at the mercy of the
wonderful RTB

For this reason  I'M OUT


----------



## Thirsty

@Laura-Ashley 
@Brendan Burgess 

Perhaps it would be a good idea to verify bona fides for @Laura-Ashley? No reason why folks might not help out but would like some reassurance first.


----------



## landlord

robert 200 said:


> If a HAP tenant stops making their agreed contribution to the relevant council then HAP will immediately stop paying the landlord. This is a fact. You are then at the mercy of the
> wonderful RTB
> 
> For this reason  I'M OUT



I have at least two rentals where the HAP claim they are paying the max allowed for the number of bedrooms. 
This statement above greatly concerns me and I have contacted HAP to confirm it. If true I will have to weigh up the risk/benefit of asking for any rent increase.


----------



## galway_blow_in

robert 200 said:


> If a HAP tenant stops making their agreed contribution to the relevant council then HAP will immediately stop paying the landlord. This is a fact. You are then at the mercy of the
> wonderful RTB
> 
> For this reason  I'M OUT



That's why I decided to instead sign up to a long term lease where the council are my tenant, as of tomorrow,I'm only responsible for structural maintenance, paid every month so far since July 27th, don't even know who lives in the house


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Thirsty said:


> Perhaps it would be a good idea to verify bona fides for @Laura-Ashley?



Hi Thirsty

I will leave it up to anyone who wants to contact her to verify her bonafides themselves.

Brendan


----------



## Feemar5

According to our local council the RAS scheme terms of  contract will be negotiated between the Council and the Landlord and generally will be of sufficient duration in order to meet the long term housing needs of the tenant. The rent paid by the local authority will be the full, agreed rent for the property. The Landlord will not have to collect rent for the duration of the agreement. The Council will collect the tenant's rent contribution and will pay the full rent to the Landlord. Landlord will have a bankable asset that a guaranteed RAS rent payment represents and guaranteed prompt payment by a State agency. The payment will be made promptly on a monthly basis, in advance of the due date.

The key 'landlord and tenant' relationship will remain between the property owner and the former rent supplement recipient. The Council will act as broker or agent on behalf of the tenant.
Landlords retain responsibility for insurances, routine maintenance and repair, and dealing with anti-social behaviour.


----------



## cremeegg

Feemar5 said:


> According to our local council the RAS scheme



The RAS scheme is being phased out.


----------



## Dermot

For almost 2 years it is the HAP scheme that has taken the place of RAS.  The Landlord gets no deposit from HAP.  If the tenant does not pay their contribution to HAP the landlord does not get paid.  If landlord contacts HAP you will get Data Protection as to why they cannot discuss why they are not paying you. See the rents that HAP are offering on the following link  http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/housing_assistance_payment.html
Some of the rents are 50/60/70% below the market rent in the some of the areas.
Another reason why its not working is that say you have private tenants who are willing to take the acommodation why one a landlord hold off while the beureaucracy is taking place (getting proof that you own the house for instance ). Getting approval that the tenant is suitable and the rent is agreeable to HAP.  Being honest would prefer to spend that month in most cases trying to source a good private tenant.  I hate beaureaucracy.  Im not being prejudiced.


----------



## landlord

robert 200 said:


> If a HAP tenant stops making their agreed contribution to the relevant council then HAP will immediately stop paying the landlord. This is a fact. You are then at the mercy of the
> wonderful RTB
> 
> For this reason  I'M OUT



Robert.... was thinking......

HAP at the start from my experience pay an agreed rent, hopefully all of the initially requested rent.  The following year if you raise the rent by 4% they will either pay it or say they are unable as they have reached the maximum allowed for that type of property.  In this case my experience has been the tenant themselves have paid the excess to me directly by standing order.  In the case of non-payment of this excess rent, HAP would be none the wiser and would continue paying me the original agreed rent?  Please let me know if I am missing anything


----------



## Dermot

Hi Landlord.  I am not disputing your experience but you are probably in an RPZ or in an area where the Hap allowance is relatively close to market rent but as you can see from the previous link which I have posted and do again ( http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/housing_assistance_payment.html ) not all areas have rent maximums near where the market is.  The rules are in a booklet issued by Hap also see the following link                                                                                        (  http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/housing_assistance_payment.html ) which empowers officialdom to do what you quoted "robert" as saying so you can see where I am coming from.   You can see where you could end up trying to convince officialdom that they are not in touch and they telling that there hands are tied etc.  Just pointing out practical problems of why its not working countrywide


----------



## robert 200

Hi Landlord ,

Did you confirm my statement with HAP ?


----------



## landlord

robert 200 said:


> Hi Landlord ,
> 
> Did you confirm my statement with HAP ?



Kind of. Reply from HAP.....

“Hi ......

A landlord’s payment would never be immediately stopped.  The tenant would receive reminder letters and calls from our debt management department and also a landlord would receive a letter from us advising them that we have not received payment from a tenant.
This would be over the course of several weeks to allow the tenant to make payment.”

As long as my tenants pay the excess directly to me, then I believe I am safe.
I will read Dermots post in more detail later.


----------



## landlord

Dermot. Both your links were the same. 

From the HAP citizens information that Dermot posted earlier....

*Paying your landlord*
The local authority will make the HAP payment to your landlord on your behalf, subject to certain conditions:


You must pay your weekly HAP rent contribution to the local authority – if not, the local authority will stop paying your landlord
I think this is outrageous! Why in the world should the landlord be penalised by HAP because the tenant decides for whatever reason to cease his contributions.


----------



## Leo

landlord said:


> I think this is outrageous! Why in the world should the landlord be penalised by HAP because the tenant decides for whatever reason to cease his contributions.



It's the LA offloading the risk to the private sector in much the way they have offloaded the provision of social housing.


----------



## Bronte

landlord said:


> *Paying your landlord*
> You must pay your weekly HAP rent contribution to the local authority – if not, the local authority will stop paying your landlord
> I think this is outrageous! Why in the world should the landlord be penalised by HAP because the tenant decides for whatever reason to cease his contributions.


There is nothing outrageous here, if your tenant stops paying his portion of the rent to the city council then HAP stops paying.  It's the very same as if a normal tenant stopped paying. No difference.


----------



## Dermot

I agree with Leo  at 70 above.  
I have a difficulty with Bronte's comment though where if the Tenant is dealing with the Landlord it is a two way conversation but when it becomes a three way conversation it can and usually does become more complicated.  He said/you said/she said and all that and the landlord maybe the only really interested in sorting it out.  
You will see that there are large areas of the country where the rent quoted by HAP represents only 60% of the market rent.  I am aware of a few landlords who feel "stuck" with Hap and are waiting to get out of it who are resorting to paying Hap themselves in order to get the Hap payment. 
How does a tenant on social payments pay their contribution to Hap and the Landlord.  Some LA's are looking for a deduction on market rent of 8% because they are interpreting it as guaranteed rent which it is not.


----------



## landlord

Bronte said:


> There is nothing outrageous here, if your tenant stops paying his portion of the rent to the city council then HAP stops paying.  It's the very same as if a normal tenant stopped paying. No difference.



Example....
If rent is €1500 paid by HAP to landlord and tenant contributes €100 to HAP. 
If tenant suddenly stops paying their €100, then it seems ridiculous to me that HAP would just cease ALL payments to the landlord.  If HAP paid €1,400 instead of €1,500 to landlord that would seem fair.


----------



## Ravima

_that would seem fair.
_
Ireland, fair, landlord, left, what am I missing?


----------



## RETIRED2017

Ravima said:


> _that would seem fair.
> _
> Ireland, fair, landlord, left, what am I missing?


If landlords think it is fair tenants who don't pay should be left in there accommodating and taxpayers bail out both I am beginning to understand why some  tenants don't pay landlords rent,

By the way I am a landlord,


----------



## Gordon Gekko

Bronte said:


> There is nothing outrageous here, if your tenant stops paying his portion of the rent to the city council then HAP stops paying.  It's the very same as if a normal tenant stopped paying. No difference.



Except the State is, on the one hand, compelling landlords to take in deadbeats via HAP, and then, on the other, it wants to transfer all risk to the landlord. Heads I win and Tails you lose.


----------



## Bronte

Gordon Gekko said:


> Except the State is, on the one hand, compelling landlords to take in deadbeats via HAP, and then, on the other, it wants to transfer all risk to the landlord. Heads I win and Tails you lose.



Not sure why you are referring to peole as deadbeats.

There is the same risk of non payment with a HAP or normal tenant.  Only difference is the rent is mostly paid direcly by the council.


----------



## RETIRED2017

Bronte said:


> Not sure why you are referring to peole as deadbeats.
> 
> There is the same risk of non payment with a HAP or normal tenant.  Only difference is the rent is mostly paid direcly by the council.


Could be higher risk with a so called normal tenant and take longer to resolve,


----------



## Dermot

Normal tenant well vetted should be lower risk


----------



## Gordon Gekko

Bronte said:


> Not sure why you are referring to peole as deadbeats.
> 
> There is the same risk of non payment with a HAP or normal tenant.  Only difference is the rent is mostly paid direcly by the council.



That just can’t be true.

Take two populations:

- People who can afford to pay their way

- People who rely on the State

It is crazy to suggest that the latter don’t cause more trouble, whether that’s not paying for things or committing crime etc.


----------



## robert 200

You are 100% correct Gordon. When the  "happers" turn nasty Bronte will change her tune


----------



## RETIRED2017

robert 200 said:


> You are 100% correct Gordon. When the  "happers" turn nasty Bronte will change her tune


I am a landlord myself the biggest problem is with the Council requirements rather than tenants at least that is the feedback I get from landlords when  HAP gets talked about,


Landlords who do not bother vetting tenants correctly is a bigger problem, a large deposit and both tenant and landlord understanding why is is required and  it will be given back at end of tenancy ,

As a landlord myself I have seen more landlords messing tenants around at the end of tenancy than tenants messing landlords around when it comes to returning deposit,


----------



## Gordon Gekko

That’s all fine and dandy, once nobody disputes the argument that, in aggregate, people on social welfare are generally more troublesome.


----------



## RETIRED2017

Gordon Gekko said:


> That’s all fine and dandy, once nobody disputes the argument that, in aggregate, people on social welfare are generally more troublesome.


I don't think the landlords I know were/are on social welfare,


----------



## Zenith63

Bronte said:


> There is nothing outrageous here, if your tenant stops paying his portion of the rent to the city council then HAP stops paying.  It's the very same as if a normal tenant stopped paying. No difference.


The difference is the deposit. The incentive for a regular tenant to continue paying rent is to get their deposit back, that simply does not exist for a HAP tenant. Let’s at least keep this debate grounded in fact, even if we cannot seem to keep it grounded in civility.



Gordon Gekko said:


> Except the State is, on the one hand, compelling landlords to take in deadbeats via HAP


Having met a good number of HAP tenants as a landlord, not a single one of them came across as deadbeats. I met lots of young people from difficult family situations who were working hard often supporting a young child or two. Personally I think HAP is very broken, it’s ridiculous the government paying rent for high-end properties and further overheating a market, but I think you should remember these are real people and calling them deadbeats is rather unfair and ignorant.


----------



## Bronte

Zenith63 said:


> The difference is the deposit. The incentive for a regular tenant to continue paying rent is to get their deposit back, that simply does not exist for a HAP tenant. Let’s at least keep this debate grounded in fact, even if we cannot seem to keep it grounded in civility.
> 
> .



What are you saying here? All my HAP tenant's paid me a deposit.


----------



## Bronte

robert 200 said:


> You are 100% correct Gordon. When the  "happers" turn nasty Bronte will change her tune



Ok, more than two decades says you're wrong. I already has one social welfare tenant try it on with me, in the High Court for Personal injuries, paid her the deposit back to get rid of her.  Most of my current HAP tenant's are in dire straights.  I feel sorry for them even thought many of them are not as clean a tenant as the Poles etc were.


----------



## Zenith63

Bronte said:


> What are you saying here? All my HAP tenant's paid me a deposit.


My understanding was that you get two month's rent up-front form the LA and one of those months is classed as the deposit.  Are you saying you ask for a 3rd month rent up-front, paid by the tenant?  As I say, met a lot of HAP tenants and spoke to HAP themselves as I was open to it, this was certainly not how it was conveyed to me.


----------



## robert 200

The bottom line is - if you were advising your daughter or son about tenants , my advice would be to steer clear of all social welfare and especially HAP tenants until the government
decide to play it fair with landlords and seriously revise the fairness of the RTB .


----------



## Annanseo

I have a building that was renovated in 1999  I have a problem 
Hap are askinythat I vent the charcoal hob fan 
The building is 3’ stone walls !! No hope of going through it !! Any advice??


----------



## Leo

Annanseo said:


> The building is 3’ stone walls !! No hope of going through it !! Any advice??



Covered in this thread here.


----------



## eisfspike

robert 200 said:


> The bottom line is - if you were advising your daughter or son about tenants , my advice would be to steer clear of all social welfare and especially HAP tenants until the government
> decide to play it fair with landlords and seriously revise the fairness of the RTB .



Here here!!!


----------



## Hooverfish

Suspect you all need to read this: https://www.bbc.com/news/education-51642316

Basically refusing HAP tenants is gender discrimination...


----------



## landlord

Hooverfish said:


> Basically refusing HAP tenants is gender discrimination...




I agree......”(OPENLY)” refusing HAP tenants is discrimination.


----------



## AlbacoreA

Hooverfish said:


> Suspect you all need to read this: https://www.bbc.com/news/education-51642316
> 
> Basically refusing HAP tenants is gender discrimination...



...Thought these huge professional landlords world make all these problems go away...


----------



## RobFer

One of things I dislike about HAP that I read is how building regulations can damage buildings and make them less efficient. The rule that you need massive vents in every room is bad for your walls and makes a house vastly more draughty. Opening windows is perfectly adequate and if ventilation should be required they should encourage decentralised mechanical ventilation. It is quite mad that in 2020 local authorities are pressuring landlords into making their houses considerable less energy efficient.


----------



## RobFer

lff12 said:


> I think what you might be hitting here is changes to build standards/codes and PRTB/HAP standards over 15 years.
> You will probably find that many owner occupied homes build more than 10 years ago wouldn't meet HAP standards.


Very true. Id say the vast majority woudnt. A house without a microwave violates the rules. So does a curtainless window with transparent glass. Mad stuff.


----------



## Mrs Vimes

Hooverfish said:


> Suspect you all need to read this: https://www.bbc.com/news/education-51642316
> 
> Basically refusing HAP tenants is gender discrimination...



That is a UK case - here the Equality (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2015 inserted "Housing Assistance" as a ground for discrimination in the provision of accommodation so there is no need to claim gender discrimination.


----------



## RobFer

Annanseo said:


> I have a building that was renovated in 1999  I have a problem
> Hap are askinythat I vent the charcoal hob fan
> The building is 3’ stone walls !! No hope of going through it !! Any advice??


Hobs should have non vented charcoal hoods. There is no need for them to be vented outside for most cases. Unless you run a restaurant or cook a great deal, I don't encourage venting as it wastes a lot of energy. Very few new houses vent to the outside.


----------



## Leo

RobFer said:


> Hobs should have non vented charcoal hoods. There is no need for them to be vented outside for most cases. Unless you run a restaurant or cook a great deal, I don't encourage venting as it wastes a lot of energy.



That is incorrect, external ventilation of cooking fumes is mandatory under the legislation.



RobFer said:


> Very few new houses vent to the outside.



What? How do these houses comply with TGD F?


----------



## 7 of 9

I recently had my rented house assessed by Fingal County Council. The cooker has a charcoal hood on an internal wall. I have been told its not up to standard and must be vented to an outside wall.


----------



## cremeegg

7 of 9 said:


> I recently had my rented house assessed by Fingal County Council. The cooker has a charcoal hood on an internal wall. I have been told its not up to standard and must be vented to an outside wall.



Ask them to provide the legal basis for this request.

I am not saying that they will not be able to provide it, but no harm to put them to the trouble.


----------



## josh8267

cremeegg said:


> Ask them to provide the legal basis for this request.
> 
> I am not saying that they will not be able to provide it, but no harm to put them to the trouble.


Post 100 says it need to be vented to the outside ,still it would be good to see what they come up with,


----------



## Leo

cremeegg said:


> Ask them to provide the legal basis for this request.
> 
> I am not saying that they will not be able to provide it, but no harm to put them to the trouble.



As above, it's explicitly called out in the legislation:



> (_b_) Suitable facilities for the effective and safe removal of fumes to the external air by means of a cooker hood or extractor fan,


----------



## RobFer

Leo said:


> That is incorrect, external ventilation of cooking fumes is mandatory under the legislation.
> 
> 
> 
> What? How do these houses comply with TGD F?


Are you referring to houses with natural ventilation? I'd urge all home owners to avoid externally vented extraction hoods but I admit I don't know the requirements for naturally vented houses. For houses with mechanical ventilation like my 2017 build, you don't find external extraction hoods too commonly. I have seen many such houses without such extraction hoods. I just have a charcoal/carbon filter hood. Such hoods are wasteful. You can hook such a hood to MHRV and then get ventilation and also recycle the heat, which is ideal but it's not straightforward because the airborn greece will damage the MHRV.


----------



## Leo

RobFer said:


> Are you referring to houses with natural ventilation?



I'm referring to the building regulations.



RobFer said:


> I'd urge all home owners to avoid externally vented extraction hoods but I admit I don't know the requirements for naturally vented houses.



The legal situation is quite clear, external ventilation of cooker hoods is required.


----------



## RobFer

Leo said:


> I'm referring to the building regulations.
> 
> 
> 
> The legal situation is quite clear, external ventilation of cooker hoods is required.


 ok but are you sure it's not different for some hosues? houses that are naturally vented have different requirements. A naturally vented house requires hole in the wall type vents in every habitated room. The regulations don't require this is in a mechanically vented house. As they are instead vented to a MHRV or similar unit. 

Recirculation hoods are widely sold in Ireland and I quick Google found a 2016  Irish Times article prompting them. Surprised if they are essentially not permitted.


----------



## Westgolf

Have been doing up my rental following last tenants moving on, vacant since mid December last. Zurich only covering on fire basis due to vacant status. Rang them yesterday to inform them that new tenants moving in next week, mentioned HAP status and was told Zurich do not cover rental property where the tenants are on this scheme ? Is this widespread ?


----------



## cremeegg

Westgolf said:


> mentioned HAP status and was told Zurich do not cover rental property where the tenants are on this scheme ? Is this widespread ?



Im surprised it’s legal


----------



## Westgolf

Only just legal methinks.


----------



## Leo

RobFer said:


> ok but are you sure it's not different for some hosues?



Yes, read the legislation I linked above. 



RobFer said:


> The regulations don't require this is in a mechanically vented house. As they are instead vented to a MHRV or similar unit.



The building regulations provide the specifics of the level of ventilation required for habitable rooms, these specifics are achievable via MHRV or open vents in each of these rooms. Each dwelling must be in compliance with the prevailing regs at time of completion to be signed-off. So in your own home a recirculating hood might be perfectly fine, some MHRV system have the option to include hood extraction, but that can be expensive and problematic. due to the grease content  The legislation for rented properties goes further than the building regs, and sets minimum standards for such properties regardless of when they were built. 



RobFer said:


> Recirculation hoods are widely sold in Ireland and I quick Google found a 2016 Irish Times article prompting them. Surprised if they are essentially not permitted.



I don't think anyone is disputing they are on sale, you are free to use them in your own home, the issue highlighted here is that recirculating hoods do not meet the minimum standards for rental accommodation.


----------



## RobFer

Leo said:


> Yes, read the legislation I linked above.
> 
> 
> 
> The building regulations provide the specifics of the level of ventilation required for habitable rooms, these specifics are achievable via MHRV or open vents in each of these rooms. Each dwelling must be in compliance with the prevailing regs at time of completion to be signed-off. So in your own home a recirculating hood might be perfectly fine, some MHRV system have the option to include hood extraction, but that can be expensive and problematic. due to the grease content  The legislation for rented properties goes further than the building regs, and sets minimum standards for such properties regardless of when they were built.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone is disputing they are on sale, you are free to use them in your own home, the issue highlighted here is that recirculating hoods do not meet the minimum standards for rental accommodation.


If that is true, it is insane. My house does meet regulations in regards its cooker. Externally vented hoods are moronic waste of energy and just create unpleasant draughts and its a retrograde regulation. No wonder declining numbers want to be landlords. I will check your claim with an expert.


----------



## Leo

RobFer said:


> If that is true, it is insane. My house does meet regulations in regards its cooker.



I'm not disagreeing, I've drilled 5" holes in mass concrete walls in houses you'd never manage an air-tightness test in just to meet the additional rental standards requirements. 



RobFer said:


> I will check your claim with an expert.



You don't have to, just read the legislation above, it's there in black and white.


----------



## landlord

Changing my original theme when I started this post......
Despite all the negatives of having a HAP tenants, at least the silver lining may be that, in this “Corona” climate the rental income source is likely to prove more reliable than from those who may soon loose their jobs?


----------



## Bronte

Thank goodness all my tenant's bar one is HAP.  I was going to sell one rental this year with a family in it as the rent is way below market and I was sick of government interference. Plus I was worried about the family of two adults and four children and where they would go.  And I never got around to it.  Well there's no way in hell I'll sell now as the market is going to be horrendous.

I couldn't believe my ears yesterday. The government think's landlords should charge no rent if the tenant loses their job. Just how on earth is a landlord supposed to pay the mortgage, the taxes and the other costs.  Madness. Sheer madness. And what will this crazy idea result in. Tenant's who can afford it refusing to pay their rents.


----------



## Sunny

Bronte said:


> Thank goodness all my tenant's bar one is HAP.  I was going to sell one rental this year with a family in it as the rent is way below market and I was sick of government interference. Plus I was worried about the family of two adults and four children and where they would go.  And I never got around to it.  Well there's no way in hell I'll sell now as the market is going to be horrendous.
> 
> I couldn't believe my ears yesterday. The government think's landlords should charge no rent if the tenant loses their job. Just how on earth is a landlord supposed to pay the mortgage, the taxes and the other costs.  Madness. Sheer madness. And what will this crazy idea result in. Tenant's who can afford it refusing to pay their rents.



Well then you get a holiday on mortgage and bills and all other costs until the rent is paid again as the banks and utility companies have said. People get behind on their mortgage. People get behind on their rent. We have hundreds of thousands of people who have lost jobs or on short time work in the past couple of weeks. Maybe, now is not the time to be worrying about mortgages and bills (Noone is going to have their house taken off them or lose their utilities over this.) This crisis is so far beyond financial. Look at the pictures and videos coming out of Italy. This is a battle to save lives. Of course there will be people who abuse every situation. Not much we can do about that.


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> Well then you get a holiday on mortgage and bills and all other costs until the rent is paid again as the banks and utility companies have said.



A holiday doesn't mean any of those costs go away, they and interest will continue to mount.


----------



## Sunny

Leo said:


> A holiday doesn't mean any of those costs go away, they and interest will continue to mount.



yeah and they will for the people renting as well. I am not saying it is just written off. We will just have to deal with it.....


----------



## Leo

Sunny said:


> yeah and they will for the people renting as well. I am not saying it is just written off. We will just have to deal with it.....



So are you pro or anti-HAP tenants then?


----------



## Sarenco

Bronte said:


> Thank goodness all my tenant's bar one is HAP. I was going to sell one rental this year with a family in it as the rent is way below market an I was sick of government interference.


Surely you are profiting from government interference if all your tenant bar one are HAP?


----------



## Bronte

Sunny said:


> Well then you get a holiday on mortgage and bills and all other costs until the rent is paid again as the banks and utility companies have said. People get behind on their mortgage. People get behind on their rent. We have hundreds of thousands of people who have lost jobs or on short time work in the past couple of weeks. Maybe, now is not the time to be worrying about mortgages and bills (Noone is going to have their house taken off them or lose their utilities over this.) This crisis is so far beyond financial. Look at the pictures and videos coming out of Italy. This is a battle to save lives. Of course there will be people who abuse every situation. Not much we can do about that.


It’s not a holiday though. You’ll still have to pay your bills afterwards, without any income from the rent.


----------



## Bronte

Sarenco said:


> Surely you are profiting from government interference if all your tenant bar one are HAP?


Because my rents are all way below market rates. But right now I don’t actually care anymore as I’m now glad I’ve a guaranteed income.


----------



## Sarenco

Bronte said:


> But right now I don’t actually care anymore as I’m now glad I’ve a guaranteed income.


Yes, due to government intervention - you can’t have it both ways.


----------



## imalwayshappy

Hi, Question on this. If you get a list of repairs and cannot afford to do them what happens? Do you evict the tenant? or do you have to wait for the lease term to be up?


----------



## Sarenco

imalwayshappy said:


> If you get a list of repairs and cannot afford to do them what happens?


A tenant can take a case against their landlord to the RTB regarding standard and maintenance of a dwelling.

All sensible landlords retain a cash reserve at all times to address ongoing maintenance and repairs.


----------



## imalwayshappy

Sarenco said:


> A tenant can take a case against their landlord to the RTB regarding standard and maintenance of a dwelling.
> 
> All sensible landlords retain a cash reserve at all times to address ongoing maintenance and repairs.



But in reality you can just evict them at the end of the lease term and find another non hap tenant.


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## Sarenco

imalwayshappy said:


> But in reality you can just evict them at the end of the lease term and find another non hap tenant.


After six months, a tenancy can only be terminated, with appropriate notice, for certain stated reasons.

Not wanting to address maintenance issues is not a valid reason for terminating such a tenancy.


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## Leo

On top of Sarenco's point, it is also  to discriminate against HAP recipients.


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## AlbacoreA

If you can't keep a 4k or more float for emergencies, its not really viable business. Any emergency and you are in crisis.


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## creditworthy

I have been reading  the posts here re HAP and it might be considered madness on my part  to even entertain the notion of  buying a house (  one for sale locally ) at a fairly good price E140k  , which I can pay for from savings , with a view to renting it out .  My main  thinking  ( with still a lot of research and reading to do ) is  to  generate a better return for savings .   Other savings are held in State Savings  certs . 

 Am i correct in thinking that  I  would be liable for  tax at 41% on rental income .  I work in the civil service , no mortgage  thankfully ,  and wonder if taxation on rental properties can be paid  without interfering with  taxation from  my employment ie: could the two be kept separate ?  
The prospect of handing over 41% in tax  might well put a halt to my gallop  though ! 
Thank you  .


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## AlbacoreA

It's only the high rate on that part of your income over the threshold and after expenses and allowances. You have to look at everything combined. 

No one pays the full rate on all their income. 

However you need to maintain a float of many thousands to cover repairs, and non payment and over holding off if you get unlucky. So your cashflow has to sustain that.


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## fidelcastro

creditworthy said:


> I have been reading  the posts here re HAP and it might be considered madness on my part  to even entertain the notion of  buying a house (  one for sale locally ) at a fairly good price E140k  , which I can pay for from savings , with a view to renting it out .  My main  thinking  ( with still a lot of research and reading to do ) is  to  generate a better return for savings .   Other savings are held in State Savings  certs .
> 
> Am i correct in thinking that  I  would be liable for  tax at 41% on rental income .  I work in the civil service , no mortgage  thankfully ,  and wonder if taxation on rental properties can be paid  without interfering with  taxation from  my employment ie: could the two be kept separate ?
> The prospect of handing over 41% in tax  might well put a halt to my gallop  though !
> Thank you  .


My advice would, based on your information above regarding Taxation is this type of investment is DEFINITELY not for you. 
Letting is a business, not for amateurs.


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## imalwayshappy

Hi aLL


creditworthy said:


> I have been reading  the posts here re HAP and it might be considered madness on my part  to even entertain the notion of  buying a house (  one for sale locally ) at a fairly good price E140k  , which I can pay for from savings , with a view to renting it out .  My main  thinking  ( with still a lot of research and reading to do ) is  to  generate a better return for savings .   Other savings are held in State Savings  certs .
> 
> Am i correct in thinking that  I  would be liable for  tax at 41% on rental income .  I work in the civil service , no mortgage  thankfully ,  and wonder if taxation on rental properties can be paid  without interfering with  taxation from  my employment ie: could the two be kept separate ?
> The prospect of handing over 41% in tax  might well put a halt to my gallop  though !
> Thank you  .



You could of course rent the house to the council under a long term lease. You would receive c. 80% of the market rent but would not have any landlord responsibilities. The council would look after all repairs etc. You would not be able to deduct anything from the rental income (capital allowances etc) so you might not be interested per your post but it would take away the landlord headache.


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## imalwayshappy

Anyone know in relation to HAP if my rent is 1000 per month and a tenant is approved for 600 a month do I get the full rental payment from the council of 1000 or do i only get the 600 and tenant pays the other 400 (two amounts into my account every month)


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## creditworthy

Thank you for your replies .


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## Tomjim

If the LA HAP allowance payable is €650 per month, is this the max the council will pay or will they pay over this amount. I have a house which I am renting for the first time and I hope to get €850 per month

I'm interested in the position on the query imalwayshappy raised as well - anyone know the position?


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## Leo

Tomjim said:


> If the LA HAP allowance payable is €650 per month, is this the max the council will pay or will they pay over this amount. I have a house which I am renting for the first time and I hope to get €850 per month



This has already been covered here and on the HAP site. The Tenant pays their contribution to the LA, the landlord receives full rental payment from the LA.


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