# Covid social welfare payment / dis incentive to return to work



## cmalone (21 May 2020)

Around 200,000 People have been better off  on the Social welfare covid pandemic payment - 350 euro - than when they were working.

How will employers make work attractive / incentivise as more people are expected to return to work. ...


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## Peanuts20 (22 May 2020)

They don't have to, if you refuse to return to work after the restrictions have been lifted then the intent is for the payments to stop and I presume it means you will have deemed to have resigned.

no doubt there will be issues, especially if employers are lax and appropriate measures are not in place.


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## KOW (22 May 2020)

cmalone said:


> Around 200,000 People have been better off  on the Social welfare covid pandemic payment - 350 euro - than when they were working.
> 
> How will employers make work attractive / incentivise as more people are expected to return to work. ...



When workers were applying for Covid payment and a a payment was required to keep people ticking over.Would it have been hugely difficult for the welfare/government  to ask for payslip or check earnings (no P60 anymore) and install a system where Covid payment did not exceed the persons wages.
I know of a number of people who are happy to keep receiving the payment because it is more than they were getting or a little less but they dont have to travel or go to work.


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## twofor1 (22 May 2020)

Some of my student nieces / nephews and many of their friends, who had part time jobs, maybe taking home €100 weekly or thereabouts are ecstatic with their €350 weekly PUP payments.

It beggars belief that this can happen.


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## Saavy99 (22 May 2020)

twofor1 said:


> Some of my student nieces / nephews and many of their friends, who had part time jobs, maybe taking home €100 weekly or thereabouts are ecstatic with their €350 weekly PUP payments.
> 
> It beggars belief that this can happen.



Will the surpluses they receiving have to be paid back at a later date?


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## twofor1 (22 May 2020)

They don't believe so.


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## lughildanach (22 May 2020)

cmalone said:


> Around 200,000 People have been better off  on the Social welfare covid pandemic payment - 350 euro - than when they were working.
> 
> How will employers make work attractive / incentivise as more people are expected to return to work. ...



Increase wages perhaps?


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## Nutso (22 May 2020)

I know someone who left work (supermarket - so plenty of work available) and applied for and received the COVID-19 PUP.  They will get more on COVID-19 payment.  I have no issue with anyone genuinely and legitimately getting the full payment (as in full-time workers who are currently unable to work from home) but I think something needs to be changed with part-time/students getting the full payment and someone leaving their job to get the COVID payment should be required to repay the full amount.


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## Saavy99 (22 May 2020)

perhaps employers should start reporting these people to welfare.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (22 May 2020)

This is what inevitable when you have a flat-rate welfare system.


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## Delboy (22 May 2020)

And when it comes to Oct/Nov, and the Revenue Comm are supposed to come looking to tax those who got the payment, I'd bet good money the Govt will tell them to let this one go


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## Saavy99 (23 May 2020)

It beggars belief, I doubt, revenue will look too kindly on them when they eventually return.









						Investigation launched into Irish in Australia claiming Covid...
					

An investigation has been launched by Gardai amidst claims that Irish people living in Australia are claiming emergency Covod payments here. Investigators from the Garda National Economic Crime Bureau believe dozens of people from Ireland have been receiving payments... #Australia #Covid #fraud



					www.donegaldaily.com


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## cmalone (24 May 2020)

Covid 350 euro payment to end in June according to today’s papers


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## Saavy99 (24 May 2020)

cmalone said:


> Covid 350 euro payment to end in June according to today’s papers




Have you a link?


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## cmalone (24 May 2020)

Sunday Times -  subscription free for first month




__





						The Times & The Sunday Times
					

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times




					www.thetimes.co.uk


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## lughildanach (25 May 2020)

I don't see anything about payments ending on that link.  It was only confirmed a few days ago that payments will continue until August.









						€350-a-week Covid-19 payment stays until August
					

The €350-a-week Covid-19 payment looks set to remain in place until the lifting of restrictions in August and will be tapered down over several months after that, it can be revealed.




					www.irishexaminer.com


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## Delboy (25 May 2020)

The Opposition Parties are lining up that this payment stay in place for the medium term. The far left want it to become the new dole amount.
It won't be ending in June


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## cmalone (25 May 2020)

Article to cut in June was in ‘Sunday Times’ print / online edition Yesterday.

Stephen O’Brien, Mark Tighe and John Mooney. Check on their Twitter accounts and you might see if you haven’t a subscription.


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## mtk (25 May 2020)

What a silly anomaly to Create


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## lughildanach (25 May 2020)

Seems that the proposal is to cut payment only for those who were receiving less than the 350 before the pandemic.  It will be interesting to see how they propose to calculate this, and what kind of administrative work will be created to assess individual claims.


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## Steven Barrett (25 May 2020)

I have been able to continue working through this crisis. I know lots of people who haven't and they have to be able to work so they can pay their bills. The government had to bring out this payment in a hurry and the quickest way is a flat amount.  Households with 2 adults and 2 part time working students get €1,400 a week. I have no problem with some people getting paid more. It is a temporary measure. I would prefer this way than the govt spending weeks and months figuring out a better way and people having their electricity off or not being able to get food. 




Delboy said:


> The Opposition Parties are lining up that this payment stay in place for the medium term. The far left want it to become the new dole amount.
> It won't be ending in June



This, I wholly disagree with. It is too high a payment, too expensive for the State and a disincentive to work. Too many people will simply just not work. 



Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## galway_blow_in (25 May 2020)

Delboy said:


> The Opposition Parties are lining up that this payment stay in place for the medium term. The far left want it to become the new dole amount.
> It won't be ending in June



FG will be forced to flip flop , FF are gone very left under MM and add to that , the media will brand FG are " right wing " for phasing it out


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## cmalone (25 May 2020)

Revenue have monthly payroll returns from employers - so it’s not a big IT exercise by Social  Welfare. 

10,000 people off ‘live register’ and back to work in past two weeks. Expect many of these employers are simply claiming the other covid payment to subsidise their wage


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## Delboy (25 May 2020)

SBarrett said:


> This, I wholly disagree with. It is too high a payment, too expensive for the State and a disincentive to work. Too many people will simply just not work.


I spoke with 2 people over the weekend who mentioned this disincentive to work.
1, an Accountant in a practice where most of the clients are small business, said some of them have had people quiet at the start of the crisis and simply cannot find any replacements.
The other, the founder of a large online retail business, also cannot get enough new people in to fill roles and so has directed some of the work to other European bases. Those who he has managed to get working for him here are only doing it as long as it's cash in hand and off the books.


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## Steven Barrett (25 May 2020)

Minimum wage in Ireland is €10.10, so for a 35 hour week, you earn €353.50. Out of that you have the cost of getting to work and the likely higher cost of lunches. You are financially better off claiming the €350 payment than working a minimum wage job. 

As I stated already, I have no problem with this payment on a temporary basis but if their employer has opened back up in a safe manner and the worker refuses to go back to work, their employer should report them and the payment stopped. 

Unless the ECB writes off the additional funds we have borrowed for this, the cost of this shut down will be felt for decades. It will have to be paid for and it is likely that cuts to welfare programmes will be paying for it. 

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Allpartied (9 Jun 2020)

SBarrett said:


> Minimum wage in Ireland is €10.10, so for a 35 hour week, you earn €353.50. Out of that you have the cost of getting to work and the likely higher cost of lunches. You are financially better off claiming the €350 payment than working a minimum wage job.
> 
> As I stated already, I have no problem with this payment on a temporary basis but if their employer has opened back up in a safe manner and the worker refuses to go back to work, their employer should report them and the payment stopped.
> 
> ...



My two daughters, both students, who were working part time in March, are getting the 350 a week. 
They were earning about 150 a week before the lock down. 
So they are 200 quid a week better off.  
But don't worry, the money will be back in the govt coffers come September when they have to pay the 3000 euro student registration fee. 
Anything left  will be handed over to the deserving landlords of Drumcondra and Phibsborough.


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## Baby boomer (10 Jun 2020)

Allpartied said:


> Anything left  will be handed over to the deserving landlords of Drumcondra and Phibsborough.


...who will hand over 50% to the government which will keep the cycle running over!


Seriously though, I have a clatter of nephews and nieces who are students and they are absolutely delighted with their Covid money


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## Allpartied (11 Jun 2020)

Baby boomer said:


> ...who will hand over 50% to the government which will keep the cycle running over!
> 
> 
> Seriously though, I have a clatter of nephews and nieces who are students and they are absolutely delighted with their Covid money



This should be the start of a Universal Basic Income.  This level would be about right, maybe higher.

We are in a new normal since 2008 and economists just haven't caught up.

Another massive stimulus programme, concentrated on the stock market, asset prices and the financial services industry is doomed to failure.

A people's bailout, unprecedented capital stimulus straight into main street, via wage subsidies will be needed. This should be coupled with Peoples' QE, or pubic works to build and modernise essential infrastructure, by printing money.  Otherwise we are looking at a deflationary depression.


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## elcato (11 Jun 2020)

Allpartied said:


> This should be the start of a Universal Basic Income. This level would be about right, maybe higher.
> 
> We are in a new normal since 2008 and economists just haven't caught up.
> 
> ...


You must be expecting another election then and hoping to get in next time ?


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## mtk (11 Jun 2020)

Paying more than was previously earned is so silly. What were they thinking ? And it's still not "fixed"


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## fistophobia (11 Jun 2020)

I have decided, if theres any income tax hikes or wealth tax, in next budget, I am quitting work.
I am not paying for all of this excess.


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## ATC110 (11 Jun 2020)

Allpartied said:


> My two daughters, both students, who were working part time in March, are getting the 350 a week.
> They were earning about 150 a week before the lock down.
> So they are 200 quid a week better off.
> But don't worry, the money will be back in the govt coffers come September when they have to pay the 3000 euro student registration fee.
> Anything left  will be handed over to the deserving landlords of Drumcondra and Phibsborough.



Eh it doesn't work like that - strange type of logic there.

Hopefully the €200 per week surplus will have to be repaid.


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## Allpartied (12 Jun 2020)

elcato said:


> You must be expecting another election then and hoping to get in next time ?


.


ATC110 said:


> Eh it doesn't work like that - strange type of logic there.
> 
> Hopefully the €200 per week surplus will have to be repaid.



Well, it will be taxable. So it will be recouped via the tax system as they earn money. 

Actually, in a pandemic this is exactly how it is intended to work. 

The purpose of the payment isn't just to stop people from falling in to penury, but also to ensure that sick people, or symptomatic people, or places of infection are managed and not encouraged to spread a deadly virus like wildfire.


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## Allpartied (12 Jun 2020)

mtk said:


> Paying more than was previously earned is so silly. What were they thinking ? And it's still not "fixed"


Interesting to see so many people get really exercised because some other people on very low wages are, for once, getting a little bit extra. 

These people are already being heavily subsidised by rent allowances and other additional welfare payments.  Most of which are needed because rich private landlords are charging 3k a month for a dump in the North Inner city.  
The way to overcome this transfer of taxpayers money to rich people, is to build proper council housing and to encourage workers to form closed shop unions to ensure their wages are improved.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Jun 2020)

I went and looked at some old payslips. In summer 2002 I earned €290 a week for an entry-level office job. This was gross, I think the only deduction was ultimately PRSI.

Adjusted for inflation that's €360 a week gross today.

At the time I thought this was good money and saved as much as I could. I see the government is now paying young people basically the same to sit at home


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## ATC110 (12 Jun 2020)

Allpartied said:


> .Well, it will be taxable. So it will be recouped via the tax system as they earn money.



It doesn't work like that either. By your logic the state hypothetically gets drip-fed a gross overpayment of taxpayers money at some undetermined date in the future over a similarly undetermined timeframe.

I hope the state will require immediate repayment of the surplus in full in the near future.


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## elcato (12 Jun 2020)

Allpartied said:


> Interesting to see so many people get really exercised because some other people on very low wages are, for once, getting a little bit extra.


I agreed with you here till you put this afterwards which showed your true colours.


Allpartied said:


> These people are already being heavily subsidised by rent allowances and other additional welfare payments. Most of which are needed because rich private landlords are charging 3k a month for a dump in the North Inner city.


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## Allpartied (12 Jun 2020)

ATC110 said:


> It doesn't work like that either. By your logic the state hypothetically gets drip-fed a gross overpayment of taxpayers money at some undetermined date in the future over a similarly undetermined timeframe.
> 
> I hope the state will require immediate repayment of the surplus in full in the near future.



It certainly doesn't work like that. 

The state set up a wage support scheme, it set out the requirements and the eligibilities. 

If citizens met the eligibility assessment, they received the payment. 

There is no recourse for  repayment of any surplus, whatever that means, other than through the taxation system. 

You could propose a special tax on low paid workers to recuperate the money, but I doubt it would get much political support.


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## Allpartied (12 Jun 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I went and looked at some old payslips. In summer 2002 I earned €290 a week for an entry-level office job. This was gross, I think the only deduction was ultimately PRSI.
> 
> Adjusted for inflation that's €360 a week gross today.
> 
> At the time I thought this was good money and saved as much as I could. I see the government is now paying young people basically the same to sit at home



I was in Dublin at the same time.  
Our rent was 300 quid a month. 

That was for a 1 bedroom apartment, with sitting room, bathroom, kitchen.  The ground floor of a house in D7.  
So, even if we were on your 360 a week, entry level salary, it would be very affordable. 
Try getting an apartment in Dublin on 350 a week today. 
Your 350 is not getting the same lifestyle as their 350.


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## Leo (12 Jun 2020)

Allpartied said:


> That was for a 1 bedroom apartment, with sitting room, bathroom, kitchen.  The ground floor of a house in D7.
> <snip>
> Try getting an apartment in Dublin on 350 a week today.



People complained such bedsits were substandard and they needed more space, it was obvious to everyone but those leading that charge that the only result was higher rents. On top of that add the policy of outsourcing social housing to the private sector...


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Jun 2020)

@Allpartied

Inflation adjustment includes private rents.


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## Allpartied (12 Jun 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> @Allpartied
> 
> Inflation adjustment includes private rents.



So 300 quid a month, which was about 25% of your entry level salary, could get an apartment, with kitchen, sitting room, bathroon, 1 bedroom and small garden, in 2000. 
Adjusted for inflation, that would be about 500 euros per month.  So can anyone find me an apartment in D7 for 500 euros a month.


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