# Maggie Thatcher



## Deiseblue (9 Apr 2013)

I cannot believe that a thread has not been started previously !

Let me start - She's only in hell less than a day & she's already tried to shut three furnaces !


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Apr 2013)

R.i.p.


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## vandriver (9 Apr 2013)

Rip


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## The_Banker (9 Apr 2013)

[broken link removed]

Ding Dong


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## Betsy Og (9 Apr 2013)

Not a friend of Ireland (Norn Iron) or the North of England. Probably not easy places to like or help at the time though - one gripped by terror, the other with a terminal decline in a core industry (coal).

However, AFAIK, empathy was not on her agenda, human consequences a footnote. I heard one guy last night say she was "blind to danger" - maybe she wasnt but she just didnt care.

While she'd appeal to my right wing economic views and there's probably a lot to be said for her on that front, it does grate with the socially liberal side of me, and I think she might be a cautionary tale to those who say  - "Put Michael O'Leary in charge of the country - he'll sort it all out!" No doubt he would and we'd save a lot of money, I just wonder would he be any more successful in knowing when step back from the brink (p.s. full credit to him re his recent donation to the jockey).

So a mixed bag (oops, unfortunate choice of words) re Margaret, but R.I.P. anyway.


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## celebtastic (9 Apr 2013)

Deiseblue said:


> I cannot believe that a thread has not been started previously !
> 
> Let me start - She's only in hell less than a day & she's already tried to shut three furnaces !


 
Really sick and distasteful to sneer at the death of an elderly statesman like that.

This country really could do with a visionary like her to free the island from the shackles of the public sector unions, as she did so well in the UK in the 80's.

Hope no-one sneers at you or your family when they pass on.

You should be ashamed


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

I remember seeing her on the telly when I was young and it's fair to say that she wasn't particularly liked in our house. 

On the economic front she was IMO always looking at the bigger picture (the macro level) rather than the smaller issues (the micro level). She shut down the mines which adversely affected individuals but she brought about change that bettered England as a whole. I read someone saying yesterday that with all of Tony Blair's years in power it was interesting that Labour didn't move to reverse her changes regarding the mines, so she was obviously right, however unpopular.

I wonder how we would fear if we had someone with her gumption run the country - would we too have voted her in three times?

I saw the Iron Lady too before Xmas and it was a disgrace IMO as it focused too much on her illness in later life whilst glossing over everything she had done (good & bad).

RIP


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## Latrade (9 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> Really sick and distasteful to sneer at the death of an elderly statesman like that.
> 
> This country really could do with a visionary like her to free the island from the shackles of the public sector unions, as she did so well in the UK in the 80's.
> 
> ...


 
I dunno, I'd say it was more sick to sneer at the 323 young sea cadets on the Belgrano that she ordered sank as it was retreating and then publically proclaimed people should rejoice in its sinking. A little black humour about her death doesn't quite seem so sick or distasteful.

And why does she get special treatment on her death? I've known many a public figure and even close friends and family die and in every case there's always been some black humour at their passing. 

Her vision was to free the UK from its public industries and the grip of the unions. Her conviction was that the free market would replace the industries she closed down. It didn't and in most of those areas where the industries were the only source of employment, they're still affected by her vision. 

Want to know how she'd do here? Look around, because Ireland is living the Thatcher economic dream. Her vision created the model for boom and bust reckless, win at all costs property market and centralised wealth to a capital and its suburbs.

Those with memories of how their town was essentially plunged into despair by her vision are justifiably less than compassionate about her passing. 

I personally hope, the families of victims of the Belgrano, every striking miner beaten by her police army, victims of the Pinochet regime she supported and maybe even Nelson Mandlella sleep just that bit more peacefully now. 

And heck, I hope they had a good sneer last night too.


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## T McGibney (9 Apr 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> Not a friend of Ireland (Norn Iron) or the North of England...



Really? In the case of Northern Ireland, she bravely withstood a tsunami of political and personal pressure to negotiate and defend the 1985 Anglo Irish Agreement, which ultimately paved the way for the peace process and the almost complete ending of paramilitary violence.

That on its own is a massive achievement.


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

Latrade said:


> Her vision was to free the UK from its public industries and the grip of the unions. Her conviction was that the free market would replace the industries she closed down. It didn't and in most of those areas where the industries were the only source of employment, they're still affected by her vision.



I presume that the reason it didn't is that it was obviously not economic to do so. As per my earlier post, why didn't Tony Blair re-open the mines? 



Latrade said:


> Want to know how she'd do here? Look around, because Ireland is living the Thatcher economic dream. Her vision created the model for boom and bust reckless, win at all costs property market



I'm not sure about that to be honest. Thatcher if anything curbed the public sector which is in stark contrast to what happened here with the expansion we witnessed, both in the usual departments but also in all out quangos. On top of this benchmarking was introduced as well as increases in social welfare and the old age pension. Not very Thatcherite to me. All of this cash flooding into the economy with interest rates so low saw the money being ploughed into assests, with housing being the obvious choice for us property-loving Irish. on the way down, in the crash, the banks were bailed out (ie depositors & bond holders), which would also go totally against Thatcherims and Capitalism.  Still, it's good for the people to have someone we can blame.




Latrade said:


> ...and centralised wealth to a capital and its suburbs.


I think to be fair that this has happened in most countries


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## T McGibney (9 Apr 2013)

Latrade said:


> Her conviction was that the free market would replace the industries she closed down. It didn't and in most of those areas where the industries were the only source of employment, they're still affected by her vision.



By the 1980s, British coal mining was a dirty, unhealthy, polluting, uneconomic and anachronistic industry, whose workers routinely suffered chronic ill-health and widespread premature deaths. Blaming Mrs Thatcher for closing the mines would be like blaming an Irish Taoiseach for shutting the industrial schools.

It wasn't Mrs Thatcher's fault that entire areas of the UK economy had such a heavy reliance on this disastrous industry in the decades before she came to power. 



Latrade said:


> Want to know how she'd do here? Look around, because Ireland is living  the Thatcher economic dream. Her vision created the model for boom and  bust reckless, win at all costs property market and centralised wealth  to a capital and its suburbs.



Mrs Thatcher's core economic philosophy was to use interest rates to curb inflation. Our boom was built on the polar opposite, ie a policy of low interest rates, contrived to bribe Europeans into embracing the single currency, which fuelled property market and wages inflation. Our bust is the inevitable consequence of this folly. Mrs Thatcher's dire warnings in the early 1990s about the single currency have since been proven correct.



Latrade said:


> And heck, I hope they had a good sneer last night too.



Classy.


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## Betsy Og (9 Apr 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Really? In the case of Northern Ireland, she bravely withstood a tsunami of political and personal pressure to negotiate and defend the 1985 Anglo Irish Agreement, which ultimately paved the way for the peace process and the almost complete ending of paramilitary violence.
> 
> That on its own is a massive achievement.


 
That was the latter end and, I agree, was a huge positive. However, earlier in her tenure was she not key to the 'criminalisation' strategy which further alienated the nationalist community, handed republicanism its hunger striker martyrs (not blaming her for their deaths but her lack of pragmatism on this one fuelled self-righteousness and support for 'the long war'). I'd have to get out the auld history books to give any more specifics but pre Anglo Irish Agreement I dont think she was helping much.

(The fact they tried to blow her up in Brighton didnt help ...., but was that a reaction to what had gone before? - not saying it justified it or anything but does it illustrate in what esteem she was held by republicanism and, perhaps, wider nationalism...?).


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## T McGibney (9 Apr 2013)

The fact that the INLA had killed her close friend Airey Neave (blowing his legs off before he later died in hospital) as early as 1979 didn't help either. That said, she did learn from her errors in dealing with the hunger strikers, and advanced the cause a negotiated settlement several years ahead of the likes of Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams.


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## Betsy Og (9 Apr 2013)

T McGibney said:


> The fact that the INLA had killed her close friend Airey Neave (blowing his legs off before he later died in hospital) as early as 1979 didn't help either. That said, she did learn from her errors in dealing with the hunger strikers, and advanced the cause a negotiated settlement several years ahead of the likes of Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams.


 
So I think we can agree on the ...errr... mixed bag analysis.


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## Latrade (9 Apr 2013)

Firefly said:


> I presume that the reason it didn't is that it was obviously not economic to do so. As per my earlier post, why didn't Tony Blair re-open the mines?


 
That would be a point if people were claiming Blair's policies were in anyway a model, but not many do. 

However, the point isn't so much the economic viability of the mines or british industry...well it is..sort of. Nobody can deny, except the most blinkered how much of a hold on progress the unions had in those industries and the power they exherted. In fact, the resistence of the unions to collective bargaining, ultimately led to their demise.

The point is that post war Britain nationalised many industries and supplies as that was economically for the best at the time. T McGibney's statement that you can't blame Thatcher for that is true, but at the same time you can't blame a region or town for that either. That's how it was set up, that was where you worked, where your dad worked. 

These weren't well paid employees earning 80K with overtime, they were still poor and that workplace was it. 

Successive governments were happy with that as it meant at least they were earning, so the regions had little other development and were left to themselves. 

So your life was get through the school you had to and get a job at the plant/pit. If you were lucky, you might have had a choice of a couple of factories, many weren't that lucky.

And then that's gone. No assistance, no help with anything. You got a grant to "retrain" but there was no other work or employer to retrain for. No bedding in period, nothing. And when it quickly went from 1 in 9 children living in poverty to 1 in 3 and when areas hit the largest levels of poverty and lack of resources seen, nothing else happened. The reason people harbour a lot of resentment is more from that side, that they were cast away, ignored and left to rot while everything moved to services and the financial services and more specifically the South East of England.

Then she sold their houses of the unemployed.

Inward investment never happened. The tax breaks to the rich didn't spark the spirit of invesment, it sparked the spirit of decadance. Ramping up North Sea Oil production helped paper over a lot of cracks, slow downs in Germany and France brought the UK closer to them in output rather than the Uk rising to meet them.

It is the sheer callousness of her vision that still holds in many people's memories. The rug was pulled from under them and they were left to rot. 

So yes, the idea may have had an element of logic behind it, but to implement it immediately and without any consideration for the community it would impact? To then see that impact and still do nothing? Hmmmm. It divided Britain and that divide remains.

As to my classy comment T McGibney, I don't claim to be classy, so it stays. I think in balance, her record of compassion and humanity, or rather utter lack of, shows a much greater lack of class and I'm not adverse to stooping and showing disrespect where no respect is deserved.


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

Hi Latrade,

I disagree with some of your points, but I must say, that's an excellent post.

Firefly.


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## blueband (9 Apr 2013)

she was a truly evil person and no friend to this country, probably roasting with her 'best pal' pinochet now!  good riddance i say..


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## Bill Struth (9 Apr 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Really? In the case of Northern Ireland, she bravely withstood a tsunami of political and personal pressure to negotiate and defend the 1985 Anglo Irish Agreement, which ultimately paved the way for the peace process and the almost complete ending of paramilitary violence.
> 
> That on its own is a massive achievement.


Funnily enough the Anglo Irish Agreement was 'her biggest regret' according to her friend Peter the Punt.

Describing her as some sort of peace process visionary is laughable. She couldn't care less whether Northern Ireland was at peace or not. She prolonged the conflict. She let ten brave young men die, the first being a member of her own parliament (who incidentally garnered more votes than she did in her own constituency.) Whether you supported them or not, they WERE political prisoners, a fact later recognised by the early release scheme under the good friday agreement.


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## celebtastic (9 Apr 2013)

Some really nasty vitriolic posts on here today, and the woman isn't even in her grave.

Shame on you.


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> Some really nasty vitriolic posts on here today, and the woman isn't even in her grave.
> 
> Shame on you.



I think you need to lighten up a bit - there are plenty posters here who could get up on their high horses and say shame on you for most of your posts.


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## Sunny (9 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> Some really nasty vitriolic posts on here today, and the woman isn't even in her grave.
> 
> Shame on you.



Why should people say nice things about her just because she is dead? People said the same things about her when she was alive so I don't see the problem.

Thatcher will always polarise opinion. Bit like her good friend in the US Ronald Regan. The thing I will say is that this was a woman from a working class background that made it to the very top and became a global political power in the 70's and 80's. No woman and not many men have come near to matching her achievements. For that alone, she was a remarkable woman. Having said that, I can't say I am going to sad at her passing.


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## Purple (9 Apr 2013)

I didn’t like her and while I agreed with many of her economic policies the heartless and draconian way in which they were implemented had severe and long term social consequences. 
This is particularly the case where the coal industry is concerned. She wasn’t to blame for the state of the industry, they rests 100% at the feet of the Union leader, but the change should have taken place over decades, not months.
She did sign the Anglo Irish agreement and faced down the Unionists but her stance during the hunger strikes created the ground swell of support for Sinn Fein that let to the demise of the SDLP and has seen Gerry and Martin re-invented as statesmen. They should be thanking her; she made them what they are.


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## celebtastic (9 Apr 2013)

----


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## celebtastic (9 Apr 2013)

Firefly said:


> ... there are plenty posters here who could get up on their high horses and say shame on you for most of your posts.


 

Really?

I would hope I would never stoop so low as to laugh at the death of an elderly woman, who did so much to drag Britain free of the grasps of the unions.


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## Betsy Og (9 Apr 2013)

Purple said:


> but her stance during the hunger strikes created the ground swell of support for Sinn Fein that let to the demise of the SDLP and has seen Gerry and Martin re-invented as statesmen. They should be thanking her; she made them what they are.


 
I agree she drove support for republicanism, but werent the SDLP the majority nationalist party until an election or 2 post the Good Friday Agreement?, by which stage SF had become somewhat 'normalised' - I wont use Bertie's phrase !!!!!!!!!!


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> Really?
> 
> I would hope I would never stoop so low as to laugh at the death of an elderly woman, who did so much to drag Britain free of the grasps of the unions.



I meant your posts which don't refer to Margaret Thatcher, you know, the ones that all concern the same subject. In any case, I feel you are trolling at this stage, over-and-out.


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## Latrade (9 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> Really?
> 
> I would hope I would never stoop so low as to laugh at the death of an elderly woman, who did so much to drag Britain free of the grasps of the unions.


 
And this is partly why there will be vitriol.

The media has played down the views on her death as "divided", even using "bitterness" as if feelings were unjustified. The BBC decided it was better not to have any disenting voices or at least better not have any voice with a regional accent. Much better to have commentry from people from the Home Counties or the South East who never had to live under her regime.

And even though there is clear evidence of the effect of her policies on communites, at least she took down the unions eh? Showed them. Also showed Scotland, Wales and practically every county North of Watford too whether or not they were in a union. But the unions lost power and that's fine.

Her death is the perfect time to judge her in a balanced way and like anyone who showed such utter contempt for human beings and in some cases human life, there will be those who do not mourn her and who struggle to show compassion at her death.

Death does not mean you cannot be judged, death does not bring automatic respect.


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## Bill Struth (9 Apr 2013)

Purple said:


> ... that let to the demise of the SDLP and has seen Gerry and Martin re-invented as statesmen. They should be thanking her; she made them what they are.


The SDLP have no-one to blame but themselves for their collapse. They became a tired old party.


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## Imperator (9 Apr 2013)

We're taking a very Hiberno-centric view on things here, which is only natural I suppose. It will be interesting to see what many Europeans say about her - I imagine the East Germans, Czechs, Slovaks and others might have fonder memories given her general stances on individual liberty and anti-communism. Another poster mentioned Mandela. Mandela thought that Britain should have supported sanctions against South Africa but went on to acknowledge that her work behind the scenes with de Klerk was of great long-term benefit.


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## Bill Struth (9 Apr 2013)

On a day like today I think that it is appropriate to remember the following children, murdered by Maggie Thatcher's henchmen in Ireland on her watch:

Whitters, Paul - 25 April 1981 (15) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Died 10 days after being shot by plastic bullet, Great James Street, Derry.​​Livingstone, Julie - 13 May 1981 (14) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Shot by plastic bullet while walking along Stewartstown Road, Suffolk, Belfast.​​Kelly, Carol Anne - 22 May 1981 (12) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Died three days after being shot by plastic bullet while walking along Cherry Park, Twinbrook, Belfast.​​McConomy, Stephen - 19 April 1982 (11) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Died three days after being shot by plastic bullet, Fahan Street, Bogside, Derry.​​Duffy, Seamus - 09 August 1989 (15) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC)
Shot by plastic bullet while walking along Dawson Street, New Lodge, Belfast.​​​


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

@ Bill
For the purposes of a balanced listing, would you care to add the people killed by the IRA during this period?


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## Betsy Og (9 Apr 2013)

Bill - more to the point - you might explain why she had a direct or even peripherally connected role in those deaths, bearing in mind the army was long on the ground before her arrival. I'm open to agreeing with you but I think we need some 'causal link' - e.g. did she sign off on the use of plastic bullets?

Or,though I'm loathe to use the line in this context, we could read from the book of Gerry to ask "Show me a war without civilian casualties"


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## Bill Struth (9 Apr 2013)

Firefly said:


> @ Bill
> For the purposes of a balanced listing, would you care to add the people killed by the IRA during this period?


 John Hume described this sort of thing as 'whataboutery.' 

Start up a thread on the IRA and we can list all it's victims. This thread is about oul Tinknickers and her deeds.


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## Liamos (9 Apr 2013)

She let ten brave young men die, the first being a member of her own parliament (who incidentally garnered more votes than she did in her own constituency.) Whether you supported them or not, they WERE political prisoners, a fact later recognised by the early release scheme under the good friday agreement.[/QUOTE]

Some would suggest that Sinn Fein / IRA allowed their own men to die, knowing the support it would garnish.


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## Liamos (9 Apr 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> John Hume described this sort of thing as 'whataboutery.'
> 
> Start up a thread on the IRA and we can list all it's victims. This thread is about oul Tinknickers and her deeds.



I'm sure you're also well aware that when it comes to keeping score on how many people were killed during "The Troubles", the IRA were well ahead.


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## Latrade (9 Apr 2013)

Follow up to something I forgot to tackle:



T McGibney said:


> By the 1980s, British coal mining was a dirty, unhealthy, polluting, uneconomic and anachronistic industry, whose workers routinely suffered chronic ill-health and widespread premature deaths. Blaming Mrs Thatcher for closing the mines would be like blaming an Irish Taoiseach for shutting the industrial schools.


 
And




T McGibney said:


> Classy.


 
They were state run. The management ran them as such. Miners know all to well the risks of their jobs and indeed as do their families and the community. Do you think any of them would work in the mines at the risk of death and/or life-shortening disease if they didn't have a choice? Do you not realise that the only reason that standards were introduced for safety in mines (and other industries) was because of union involvement and direct action?

The unions had a lot to answer for for how they used the power they had, but there were no miners with second homes, holiday homes, two cars or kids in college. They lived in cramped, terraced housing and were lucky to even get a week in Blackpool, let alone site of anything other than work.

The unions may have had power, but the state and the management of the pits let them be dirty, polluting, unhealthy and unsafe.

You some how give the impression that they should be grateful she closed them down or that the workers were in some way responsible for those conditions.

The mines and British Industry was in a bad way when Thatcher came to power, but it takes two parties to make it so run down and unproductive, not just the workers. The argument is how she introduced her policy and the lack of humanity for those it would continue to affect to this day.


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

duchalla said:


> She destroyed lives, families and entire communities with her policies.



Just to be clear, regarding "She destroyed lives, families and entire communities with her policies" are you referring to closing down the mines? If so you would have to ask why the mines were dependent on taxpayer support in the first place and as I have already asked, why didn't Tony Blair re-open the mines? I agree with Purple, the speed at which she did this was indeed too fast, but she looked at the UK economy in the whole rather than focusing on a particular group/area.



duchalla said:


> She supported dictorships, apartheid and is directly responsible for the deaths of both innocent civilans and political prisoners in this counrty.


I don't know enough about this to comment, other than to say that if I was to make an un-educated guess I'd probably agree with you.



duchalla said:


> Like I said, SHE WAS SCUM....


[/QUOTE]
IMO, leaving this out would have made your post a lot better and not resemble something from a tabloid paper heading, but that's just me.


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## Bill Struth (9 Apr 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> Bill - more to the point - you might explain why she had a direct or even peripherally connected role in those deaths, bearing in mind the army was long on the ground before her arrival. I'm open to agreeing with you but I think we need some 'causal link' - e.g. did she sign off on the use of plastic bullets?
> 
> Or,though I'm loathe to use the line in this context, we could read from the book of Gerry to ask "Show me a war without civilian casualties"


As Prime Minister she had British military intelligence reporting directly to her. If the leader of a country isn't responsible for their military, who is? She used the military to tread my community into the ground. I grew up with hardmen in military fatigues thinking it was funny to look down the sights of their rifles at children playing. I was one of those children. Carol Ann Kelly was a 12 year old child returning from the shop with a pint of milk and was shot dead by a thug from a passing British Army jeep. No soldier has ever been charged in connection with her murder.


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> John Hume described this sort of thing as 'whataboutery.'
> 
> Start up a thread on the IRA and we can list all it's victims. This thread is about oul Tinknickers and her deeds.



And as children caught up and down the country in schoolyards claim when caught fighting, "you started it"


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## Bill Struth (9 Apr 2013)

Liamos said:


> I'm sure you're also well aware that when it comes to keeping score on how many people were killed during "The Troubles", the IRA were well ahead.


 Keeping score on how many people were killed? I'll leave that to people like you.


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> Keeping score on how many people were killed? I'll leave that to people like you.



Take a look at post #32 for the craic.


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## Bill Struth (9 Apr 2013)

Firefly said:


> Take a look at post #32 for the craic.


And what? Should we erase any mention of how many died in the Belgrano as well?


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## Liamos (9 Apr 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> Keeping score on how many people were killed? I'll leave that to people like you.



Of the 363 killed by the British security forces, 87 were civilians.

Of the 2057 killed by Republican paramilitaries, 728 were civilians.

Just so you know.


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## Bill Struth (9 Apr 2013)

Liamos said:


> Of the 363 killed by the British security forces, 87 were civilians.
> 
> Of the 2057 killed by Republican paramilitaries, 728 were civilians.
> 
> Just so you know.


 What's your point? Feel better now?


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Apr 2013)

Folks

I have better things to do than to deal with all the reported posts on this thread. 

I am sure that there are similar discussions on some of the other websites where you can  use up the time of their moderators. 

Brendan


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