# Preschool planning permission



## MontiS (9 Sep 2015)

Hi,
I'm looking for some advice please as I'm finding it very difficult to get a straight answer.
I am running a preschool in a parish hall/community centre and I saw an article in the independent at the weekend that said that a preschool in a similar position to myself received a warning letter as they have no planning permission. I was under the impression (as are all of the other people who I know running in a similar place) that we didn't need it as it falls in the same use class?

Took this from the Irish Statute Book relating to changes of use planning. 

“day centre” means non-residential premises used for social or recreational purposes or for the provision of care (including occupational training);

CLASS 8

Use—

(a)  as a health centre or clinic or for the provision of any medical or health services (but not the use of the house of a consultant or practitioner, or any building attached to the house or within the curtilage thereof, for that purpose),

(b)  as a crèche,

(c)  as a day nursery,

(d)  as a day centre.

There are two other use classes though that have community centre and parish hall. 

Could somebody please point me in the right direction? Any advice is welcome.


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## mathepac (9 Sep 2015)

I think the difference might be if you charge for the pre-school it could be classed as commercial use.


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## Sandals (10 Sep 2015)

Only exemption on planning permission is a childminder from own home catering for max 5 kids.

you have to have planning permission to run a pre-school, if you do not, your insurane would be nul and void. When you sign the contract for the ECCE scheme with the DCYA you are confirming that you have all your planning permission, fire certificate etc.  

Youv two choices, keep quiet until you are found out or immediately contact your ccc and county council. Going by the independent report, time is given to sort planning and won't shut the preschool down. But the risk is your not insured. Preschools currently are combating their liability by not opening door till dot of opening time and insisting on immediate collection.

It's the over supply of preschools at the moment that has warranted the reporting.


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## daithi28 (10 Sep 2015)

Monti S,

Exemptions from planning exist if the proposed use falls *within* the same "Class of Use" as the existing use as outlined in Schedule 2, Part 4 of the Regs.

The *"Parish Hall/Community Centre"* you describe is either a *Class 10 Use* in the Regulations; (f) use as "a social centre, community centre or non-residential club" or a *Class 7 Use; *(b) "use for the social and recreational activities of a religious body"

The *"pre-school"* you describe is a *Class 8 Use* in the Regulations; "use as a creche", "use as a day nursery", "use as a day centre"

So you're either going from a Class 10 Use to a Class 8 Use or a Class 7 Use to Class 8 Use.
You need permission to change the use from one use class to another unless it is covered as a separate exemption under Class 14 of Schedule 2, Part 1 (which it is not, I'm afraid).

So yes, it needs planning permission.........


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## MontiS (10 Sep 2015)

Sandals said:


> Only exemption on planning permission is a childminder from own home catering for max 5 kids.
> 
> you have to have planning permission to run a pre-school, if you do not, your insurane would be nul and void. When you sign the contract for the ECCE scheme with the DCYA you are confirming that you have all your planning permission, fire certificate etc.
> 
> ...





Sandals said:


> Only exemption on planning permission is a childminder from own home catering for max 5 kids.
> 
> you have to have planning permission to run a pre-school, if you do not, your insurane would be nul and void. When you sign the contract for the ECCE scheme with the DCYA you are confirming that you have all your planning permission, fire certificate etc.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reply. 
The building has fire certificates and disability access certificates, etc so at least that part is done.
I will get on to them asap and get it sorted.


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## MontiS (10 Sep 2015)

daithi28 said:


> Monti S,
> 
> Exemptions from planning exist if the proposed use falls *within* the same "Class of Use" as the existing use as outlined in Schedule 2, Part 4 of the Regs.
> 
> ...



Hi,
Thanks for your reply.
It was my understanding that a day centre was a social or recreational building as this is what it said in the definition I found at the beginning of the Irish Statute Book. I took this to mean that it was in the same class as a day nursery. The building could actually fall into all 3 classes so who decides where it falls?


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## Leo (11 Sep 2015)

Fixed your quote there.



MontiS said:


> The building could actually fall into all 3 classes so who decides where it falls?



Gernally the planning applied for / granted decides where it falls.


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## Sandals (12 Sep 2015)

The planning also decides the numbers the preschool can cater for based on external environment like car parking, noise nuisance to neighbours etc...however many preschools are following preschool inspector's number which is based on floor space internally etc. Again an issue if insurance claim. The smaller the number of children the lower the profit margin, it's this reason the smaller preschools are closing yet larger preschools are granted permission to open locally. It would seem the push is to have all ecce offered in creche settings.


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## kceire (5 Oct 2015)

You may also need a fire safety certificate and a disability access certificate.


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