# What will be done to someone who is running a business and collecting social welfare?



## marie grant (17 Feb 2008)

what will be done to someone who is running a buisness and collecting social welfare . Ihave just found out that someone i know very well is doing just that.


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## gipimann (17 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*

If it's investigated and proven that fraud is occurring, the person committing the fraud can be prosecuted.   The Dept of Social and Family Affairs have been getting tougher on Benefit Fraud in recent years (to set an example as much as recovering money).

Bear in mind though that some types of social welfare payments can be paid to persons in work - for example Back to Work Allowance is paid to self-employed persons.

If you wish to pursue the matter, contact your local Social Welfare Office (by phone or mail) and report what you know.


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## Welfarite (19 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*

As Gipimann says, there may be a genuine case for this person to be running a business as well as claiming SW. 

And you can report it anonymously if you prefer. SW will investigate thoroughly before deciding to pursue potential fraud. They will not act on your information alone but have their own investigators gathher evidence of fraud before moving on it.


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## freshface (19 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*

I'm in a similar situation, I have a friend who has recently told me that for 6 months last year she claimed unemployment assistance and worked. she got it because her mum cannot work and could not pay rent so she claimed rent allowance for her. My friend feels so bad about it and stopped doing it in december, but she wants to tell the social welfare what she's done so she can gradually pay it back. I think its a good idea, although i dont want her to be locked up. its her mother that is the real problem and she convinced her to do it. now she's a nervous wreck and wants to come clean. any ideas?


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## Welfarite (20 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*

It is highly unlikely that SW would take a prosecution case against your friend if she admits to this. All that will happen is that they will assess an overpayment against her for the preiod and arrange with her for weekly repayments to be made at a rate agreed with your friend. Tell her to go and see the SW at the office she claimed, ask to see a supervisor adn explain how she was put under pressure to do this.

She is better doing this before SW find out about it by comparing her PRSI record to her claim record and finding out themselves. The 2007 tax returns, ehcih will include this are not uploaded ontom SW computers yet but as soon as they are, they will know.


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## murphaph (23 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*

What sort of penalties might the following people face:

1) Self employed mechanic, running business for app. 20 years and not VAT registered or paying income tax. Possibly claimed SW during this period though may have since stopped.

2) Son of the above person, working as a mechanic also in same business 'employed' by father. Paid cash in hand, no PRSI paid, no income tax paid. Highly likely to still be claiming SW.

Would the Joint Investigation Unit be interested in the above individuals?


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## fintans (23 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*



murphaph said:


> What sort of penalties might the following people face:
> 
> 1) Self employed mechanic, running business for app. 20 years and not VAT registered or paying income tax. Possibly claimed SW during this period though may have since stopped.
> 
> ...


 
Call the joint investigation unit  first thing on monday morning and come back to us with the news. We're all dying to know how you get on. How do we know if they'll be interested, are we psychic or something?!?


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## murphaph (23 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*



fintans said:


> Call the joint investigation unit  first thing on monday morning and come back to us with the news. We're all dying to know how you get on. How do we know if they'll be interested, are we psychic or something?!?


Well the JIU are hardly going to call me back with an update into someone else's tax affairs now are they.

That's two people have jumped on my post for daring to moot reporting individuals for tax evasion and/or SW fraud. The culture of nod and wink and "shur'n if you could get away with it you would" is alive and well in Ireland it would seem. Wonder will we ever grow up as a society.


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## Welfarite (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*



murphaph said:


> Well the JIU are hardly going to call me back with an update into someone else's tax affairs now are they.
> 
> That's two people have jumped on my post for daring to moot reporting individuals for tax evasion and/or SW fraud. The culture of nod and wink and "shur'n if you could get away with it you would" is alive and well in Ireland it would seem. Wonder will we ever grow up as a society.




Yes, the JIU would be interested in the scenario you give. The more detail you have to report to them, the easier it will be for them to investigate. They will take your initial report adn investigate themselves, building up their own evidence. It is they who will have to stand up in court and give evidence so they can't sya" We heard from a third party that so-adn-so was not paying tax/claiming SW so we're here top prosecute them". 

The penalties are dependent on the judge so nobody can predict their severity. Ther have been a numbe rof cases where people have gone to jail, others with suspended sentences, all cases must repay any overpayments to SW, underpayments to Revenue.


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## Margie (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: What will be done to someone who is running a buisness and collecting social welf*

I know two people who are buying and selling cars as a nixer.  One is in full time employment and the other is self employed.  This is a seperate income to their day jobs.  They issue receipts and forward on the tax books but are not VAT registered and are not declaring tax.  What would happen if they were caught.  They have even given themselves a trade name.  is there not some type of insurance that they would need to have say if they sold a car with a fault and in turn there was an accident etc.  are you allowed to just buy and sell on cars as an extra income?


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## murphaph (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*



Welfarite said:


> Yes, the JIU would be interested in the scenario you give. The more detail you have to report to them, the easier it will be for them to investigate. They will take your initial report adn investigate themselves, building up their own evidence. It is they who will have to stand up in court and give evidence so they can't sya" We heard from a third party that so-adn-so was not paying tax/claiming SW so we're here top prosecute them".
> 
> The penalties are dependent on the judge so nobody can predict their severity. Ther have been a numbe rof cases where people have gone to jail, others with suspended sentences, all cases must repay any overpayments to SW, underpayments to Revenue.


Thanks welfarite. I can understand your puzzlement but a post against me had to be deleted by a mod, hence my comments. To be honest I would have no problem standing up in court and pointing the finger at these leeches. If I don't even have to do that, great. Might it be difficult for the JIU to prove an employment is taking place if both father and son are uncooperative?


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## Welfarite (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*



murphaph said:


> Might it be difficult for the JIU to prove an employment is taking place if both father and son are uncooperative?


 
Part of their investigation will be to actually covertly observe the persons in their employment so that it is difficult, when they are under cautioned interview, to deny employment. There are laws under which they can be prosecuted for being uncooperative as well.


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## csirl (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: What will be done to someone who is running a business and collecting social welf*



> The culture of nod and wink and "shur'n if you could get away with it you would" is alive and well in Ireland it would seem.


 
Not paying your fair share of taxes is the most unpatriotic anti-Irish thing you can do.

In past centuries, Irish people scammed the UK revenue as a mark of disrespect and utter contempt to the King/Queen of England who they hated.

Doing the same to your fellow Irish citizens shows that you hate Ireland.


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## ubiquitous (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: What will be done to someone who is running a business and collecting social welf*



csirl said:


> In past centuries, Irish people scammed the UK revenue as a mark of disrespect and utter contempt to the King/Queen of England who they hated.



Really? I don't think that income tax, for example, existed in Ireland pre-1922?


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## ubiquitous (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: social  welfare fraud*



murphaph said:


> The culture of nod and wink and "shur'n if you could get away with it you would" is alive and well in Ireland it would seem. Wonder will we ever grow up as a society.



So is the culture of the Stage Irishman, it would seem


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## barryl (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: What will be done to someone who is running a business and collecting social welf*



csirl said:


> Not paying your fair share of taxes is the most unpatriotic anti-Irish thing you can do.
> 
> In past centuries, Irish people scammed the UK revenue as a mark of disrespect and utter contempt to the King/Queen of England who they hated.
> 
> Doing the same to your fellow Irish citizens shows that you hate Ireland.


 
what about a person ,say someone selfemployed earning good income but knows how to legally reduce his tax to nought by good forward planning,is he scamming the system ?does he hate Ireland?


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## ClubMan (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: What will be done to someone who is running a business and collecting social welf*

There's a big difference between legal tax avoidance and illegal tax avoidance or evasion. Patriotism and love or hatred for a nation are irrelevant here in my opinion.


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## z103 (25 Feb 2008)

*Re: What will be done to someone who is running a business and collecting social welf*



> Not paying your fair share of taxes is the most unpatriotic anti-Irish thing you can do.


Really? - that's interesting.

I don't have a patriotic bone in my body. The only reason I pay taxes (which I regard as theft) is because failure to do so may mean I go to prison.


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