# Planning observations by the applicant



## Captain Z (25 Aug 2011)

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone knows can a planning applicant submit an observation in reply to an observation from a neighbour. The observation/submission time limit is not for 2 weeks.

Thanks


----------



## hastalavista (25 Aug 2011)

There is nothing to say you cant, just do it and remember that it will be a public document, either on the planning file or/and online.

Anything that helps the planners arrive at the right answer for you cant hurt.

The neighbor's letter may only be to preserve their right to go to an Bord Planala if planning is granted.
AFAIK if u don't comment at the planning stage then the ABP option is not available


----------



## onq (25 Aug 2011)

+1 what hastalavista has posted and just to clarify that the last line applies to the third party not the applicant - only a third party observer needs to make an observation to obtain a right of appeal, the applicant has this by right.

In relation to the observation, make sure it its lodged within the 5 week time limit and include your €20.

I advise however that you consider first talking to the neighbour in person over a cup or tea in order to resolve any difficulties outlined in their observation as opposed to doing it by proxy through the observations process.

After that if there is no common ground, you may be in a better position to word your observation - alternatively if you reach agreement or can offer an assurance they accept in principle, you could note this in your observation and respectfully request the planning officer to take account of it.

ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon              as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal      action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in              Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the      matters    at      hand.


----------



## Captain Z (25 Aug 2011)

ONQ,
Thank you for your comments, it's a good point and I see the value in it. We don't currently live in the house, but did try to contact the particular neighbour on 3 occasions prior to lodging the application and they were never available. We left word/contact details with the other neighbours just in case they saw them, but heard nothing. 

We were on a tight schedule and had to get the application in. I fear that it may get messy as they have a single storey extension that crosses the boundary line onto our property (both with the wall and the overhang). We were only made aware of this as an issue when our architect was doing the survey/drawings. Our plan was to build inside the boundary wall so as not to cause any disruption to the neighbour. 

Has anyone any experince in dealing with objections by neighbours?

Any advice is much appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## onq (25 Aug 2011)

Captain Z,

Its good to see your project is progressing and you appear to have done all you reasonably can to contact your neighbours.

Building on a boundary is now the subject of the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009.

Chapter Three refers but there are other laws and regulations involved too I understand.

Make sure your architect is competent to take on the role of planning consultant.
I've been doing Appeals since shortly after I qualified but this isn't unversal.
Not all architects do this work nor are they competent to advise on it.

-----------------------------------------------------

If your architect is competent to do so he should advise.
There is no rule that says your architect must write the letter for you BTW.
Some local authorities seem to prefer the owner/occupier to write their own letters.
If the Observation from you is calm, courteous, accurate and fair it can give a good account of you.

-----------------------------------------------------

A planning appeal is a different kettle of fish in my experience.
Here a professional acting on your behalf may give a better impression to the An Bórd Pleanála Inspector.
Most Inspectors of whom I am aware seem to be drawn from the ranks of planning, building or legal professionals.
If an appeal is expected its as well to involve a planning consultant at an early stage and take his advice on the observation.

Best of luck with it and you might let us know how this turns out Captain Z.


ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon               as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal       action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the       matters    at      hand.


----------



## hastalavista (25 Aug 2011)

Captain Z said:


> ONQ,
> I fear that it may get messy as they have a single storey extension that crosses the boundary line onto our property (both with the wall and the overhang). We were only made aware of this as an issue when our architect was doing the survey/drawings. Our plan was to build inside the boundary wall so as not to cause any disruption to the neighbour.
> 
> Has anyone any experince in dealing with objections by neighbours?
> ...


In relation to objections by neighbours they range from the amenable to the intransigent and beyond. It really depends on the personality and the issue. One thing to be aware of is that the 'other half' may often be the driver of the objection

I am a bit puzzled by the existing encroachment issue you allude to.

Its also not clear what the nature of the objection is.

Have you taken legal advice on this and was this not evident when , I assume, you bought the house.

I am not a lawyer but my understanding is that the portion of the building that is on your property belongs to you and  as least in theory you neighbour cannot sell without your consent, despite the notion of squatters rights after 7 or 21 years or whatever the number is.

In addition your neighbour has no right of access to the portion of the property on your land.
I would be more concerned about getting this issue sorted before you proceed with your extension.


----------



## onq (25 Aug 2011)

I'm a bit puzzled too Captain Z.

Is this the same proposal to which you referred in http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1173801&postcount=1



> (Our neighbours are friends and we will speak with them first.)



What happened?

ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the        matters    at      hand.


----------



## Captain Z (26 Aug 2011)

Its the same one alright - we spoke to two sets and they were fine. However as we don't presently live in the house, we had never met the people on the other side (they moved in after we left the area). This was despite several efforts, calling out etc and leaving details with the people we knew.

The objection itself is a very dramatised document and contains certain defamatory remarks about myself and my wife, so hopefully the planners will see it for what it is. They make 6 points, 4 of which are not valid reasons for objection, in that they are personal in nature and not based on the application/planning process. The other 2 we actually discussed with the planners pre submission and changed items in the plans to aleviate....

Anyway I will keep this thread open for updates and thanks again for advice/theories etc.

Z


----------



## hastalavista (26 Aug 2011)

Captain Z said:


> Its the same one alright - we spoke to two sets and they were fine. However as we don't presently live in the house, we had never met the people on the other side (they moved in after we left the area). This was despite several efforts, calling out etc and leaving details with the people we knew.
> 
> The objection itself is a very dramatised document and contains certain defamatory remarks about myself and my wife, so hopefully the planners will see it for what it is. They make 6 points, 4 of which are not valid reasons for objection, in that they are personal in nature and not based on the application/planning process. The other 2 we actually discussed with the planners pre submission and changed items in the plans to aleviate....
> 
> ...



What about the elephant in the room: the existing neighbors wall that is, at least allegedly, in your property or does that just form part of the overall _advice/theories_.


----------



## Captain Z (26 Aug 2011)

Our original idea was to just build inside that wall so as not to cause any undue stress to the neighbours. Its only a few inches. The overhang is more of an issue and that will have to be scaled back. No plan of action as yet.


----------



## hastalavista (26 Aug 2011)

Captain Z said:


> Our original idea was to just build inside that wall so as not to cause any undue stress to the neighbours. Its only a few inches. The overhang is more of an issue and that will have to be scaled back. No plan of action as yet.



its not as simple as that. for a normal construction, the foundations for the wall could be another foot into ur garden and ur foundations will push ur wall another foot from the edge of their founds so u could find the gap will be 2 feet.

Then how do you plaster ur wall on outside?


----------



## Captain Z (29 Aug 2011)

I would expect that these are the problems of the architect, engineer and builder!


----------



## onq (29 Aug 2011)

Not necessarily Captain Z.

Hastalavista is drawing your attention to the fact that the trespass may be more invasive underground than overground.
If this is the case, this may restrict your intended development more than your building professionals may imagine.
Were trial holes dug to determine the extent and levels of the foundation of the adjoining extension?

If this was built with a 300mm cavity wall the footing could extend a further 300mm into your site than it looks above ground.
You may have to underpin this all the way along to even build to the edge of the footing.

This could involve significant legal wrangling and additional expense at the foundations stage, neither of which outlays will be reflected in the building.
In sort, you don't "see" money put into the ground and you don't "see" money you pay solicitors, but without both, your extension won't be built.
There are ways of improving your position of course, but that's another thread, and possibly another forum.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon      as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in      Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at      hand.


----------



## hastalavista (29 Aug 2011)

onq said:


> Not necessarily Captain Z.
> 
> Hastalavista is drawing your attention to the fact that the trespass may be more invasive underground than overground.
> If this is the case, this may restrict your intended development more than your building professionals may imagine.
> ...



Thanks for spelling it out

I don't think the OP sees the encroachment issue for what it is, a potential mine field


----------



## Captain Z (30 Aug 2011)

I'm not a builder/architect myself and have limited knowledge on the subject. However the contractors we have employed have not mentioned this as an issue and they have extensive experience building mid terrace rear extensions. Relations of mine used them and both neighbours had similar extensions beforehand.

I would have thought that our extension would go flush to the existing neighbours extension and that if there were any encroaching foundations already in place they would be incorporated into the new foundations.....

I will be taking this up with our contractors etc....


----------



## onq (30 Aug 2011)

I think we're now down to bedrock, Captain Z.

You appear to have no professionals going to site and are relying on a contractor in terms of engineering and legal matters.
hastalavista and I have tried to draw your attention to serious issues below ground which threaten the viability of your scheme.

You cannot simply incorporate the foundations of another building into your design without an engineers advice - I have already mentioned the possibility of needing underpinning.
Before you proceed to site, you need to take advice from a qualified independent chartered engineer on this matter with regard to how inspect, how to proceed (method statement) and what foundation to build.

The reason for this is because if the other building is poorly founded, then even opening up to take a look could destabilize the adjoining property - will your builder's insurance cover him for this or will you be liable?
IN such an unusual situation he may need to procure a specialist form building insurance, and your professionals can advise.

You say your neighbours have already wronged you by making personal remarks that are unfounded in their Observation.
You should send a registered letter formally requesting their permission to allow your architect or engineer conduct an inspection of their house and extension to make a Schedule of Condition and Photographic Report.
If you don't do this, and if you proceed to site without professional advice, you could be wide open to a false claim for every crack or instance of poor workmanship that may already be evident in their house and extension.

I'm not saying they will do this, but where relations are poor, a building coming to an adjoining site can sometimes be seen as a gold mine by the adjoining occupants.

Why am I advising you on all of this?

Because as you just admitted -

_"__I'm not a builder/architect myself and have limited knowledge on the subject."_

A contractor may suggest there is no risk to proceed quickly to site for his own financial benefit.
Letting your builder away on this without first preparing the ground legally and literally could prove very unwise.
You have had free advice here on AAM which you seem bent on disregarding possible because its free (a phenomenon I've seen noted by others on LinkedIn)

For you own sake, at least acknowledge there could be merit in what we're saying and get a second opinion.

Also with regard to advice previously offered above in relation to The Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act, you are dealing with a building, not just a boundary structure.
This may have implications in relation to both the inferred trespass (which is not definite or quantified) and the duty of care you must have and what rights they have established.

Where these rights may be construed as an easement, your solicitor should see if they have sought to register a claim against your property for any trespass and advise on how to regularize this.
A useful strategy would be to use the foreseeable confrontation to flush all these things out into the open and deal with them to your satisfaction, perhaps using the inferred trespass to get them to pay the legal bill.

But *do* take legal and engineering advice as a minimum, or this could indeed be a minefield - that is, something hidden under the ground which, when disturbed, has a tendency to blow up underneath you causing serious damage.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon       as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action  be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in       Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters  at      hand.


----------



## Captain Z (30 Aug 2011)

Hi ONQ,
Thanks for the advice, and I had noted your previous comments, I was trying to outline our situation a little further. 

Regarding site visits, the only professional to appraise the site is our architect who has also consulted an engineer for additonal advice. It was through this that we became aware of the overhang etc in first place. I was not something we had thought about. 

We have also consulted a solicitor with regard to the statements made and the overhang and have been advised not take this any further until PP is granted. At which stage we will be in a stronger position.

I'll keep this thread open and will post info when I have it.

Thanks


----------



## onq (31 Aug 2011)

You're very welcome Captain Z.

Hopefully _the mods_ will allow the thread to remain open...

As regards your comment that you will be in a stronger position after achieving planning permission - I fail to see how this would be so.
Planning law does not supersede the law of the land - you cannot force him to remove the foundations or trim back his roof using planning law.
If you've failed to take account of things underground or hidden that prevent you building the permitted development you may need a new permission.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon        as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action   be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in        Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters   at      hand.


----------



## hastalavista (31 Aug 2011)

Would be interesting to know if the PP app drawings show the encroachment: if the LA are appraised of this PP may not be granted as sought.


----------

