# Is there a growing lack of personal responsibility in Irish society?



## burmo (7 Nov 2012)

Is there a growing lack of personal responsibility in Irish society?

The question has been in my mind for the past while and I'm curious to get some opinions. Is it getting worse or has it always been the same?

I see and hear so many people looking for "debt forgiveness" and how to escape from their contracts that they freely entered into. Particularly people who have gathered lifestyle debt and still have the capacity to repay with a more modest living standard. The mitigating circumstances seems to be that the banks got their bailout, etc. so where's mine?! But that line of reasoning gets our society into a downward spiral very quickly with "I'm a victim" mentality. Especially the "I'm a victim" but I deserve my holidays...


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## Delboy (7 Nov 2012)

I agree Burmo...there's a certain amount of people out there feeling 'the victim'. Some genuine cases also, no doubt, who should be given a fresh start after a 'probabtion' type period of time.
But there's a serious amount of cute hoors out there too who see an opportunity coming down the line to get debt write off while holding on to the lifestyle, big home, btl's etc...all of which they acquired through freely taking out mortgages/loans that were really beyond their means in the 1st place.

And of course the media is largely pushing this agenda. And a few legal snouts ready to get down and rich on the 'personal nama' agenda also.
You'd have to ask yourself what sort of financial (property) woes a lot of the biggest cheerleaders amongst these have?


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## Struggling (7 Nov 2012)

*Personal Responsibility affects others e.g. kids.*

Hi Burmo,

I can't speak for others on the matter but I have posted elsewhere on the site re my own situation: post1292978

I would consider a strategic default; not from a lack of personal responsibility or a feeling that "The banks got their bailout". I'm not that simplistic in my views. However, we have accumulated serious personal debt, mostly due to trying to discharge all our obligations to customers and suppliers when my husbands construction business began to fail due to the recession and some serious non-payment of monies owed by our customers in the last year of the business. 

My position is now, that we have lived within severely restricted means since 2008 - five years, struggling to maintain all payments on mortgage, credit cards, term loans etc. We have a new fledgling business which is ticking over and which is really important to us but is not generating enough to cover more than our repayments and a frugal Aldi shop each week.

We're tired. We are 45 and 41 respectively and we worry about money constantly. We have 4 great kids who are definately affected by the circumstances in their day to day lives. 

Basically all the joy is gone out of our lives and the years are ticking by. When do you say stop? I want some happiness - some basic disposable income, to bring my kids to the cinema, to go out for a pizza to celebrate a family birthday, to plan an annual holiday. Nothing extravagant - just simple normal pleasures. Are we not entitled to this due to the circumstances we find ourselves in?

I don't know.

S.


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## marathonic (7 Nov 2012)

The government blame the EU.
The government blame the banks.
The banks blame the government.
The banks blame the people taking the loans.
The developers blame the banks.
The developers blame the property owners.
The property owners blame the developers.
The renters blame the property owners.

Noone in any of the above categories appears to be admitting that maybe they were to blame for it all - not even Sean Quinn  Obviously, the renters are the ONLY ones with no responsibility in all of the above.

I'm no economist but I always wonder - where the hell did all the money go? 

Obviously, construction workers earned a lot but they would have redistributed those earnings through the economy via pubs, shops, etc.

I know that China are owed a lot by various countries but do they really have ALL the money. After all, the US is in debt, most of Europe is in debt..... 

Is it the conspiratist in me that thinks maybe a crisis like the current one is nothing but a redistribution of wealth from the working class to the most wealthy in society?


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## burmo (7 Nov 2012)

Hi Marathonic. Some of it is as simple as a loan is borrowing money from your future earnings to spend today and the interest rate is the cost for doing so. So we borrowed a lot of money from our future that now has to be paid back. Many used that borrowed money to fuel a lifestyle that was beyond their means.

Crash course is an excellent short series that may answer some of your questions. http://www.peakprosperity.com/crashcourse


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## marathonic (7 Nov 2012)

burmo said:


> Many used that borrowed money to fuel a lifestyle that was beyond their means.


 
Agreed. 

_"I can't afford a loan for that brand new BMW but there's €30,000 more equity than I need in my house and, to justify it to myself, the mortgage interest rate is lower than the rate on a car loan!"_


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## burmo (7 Nov 2012)

Struggling said:


> Hi Burmo,
> 
> I can't speak for others on the matter but I have posted elsewhere on the site re my own situation: post1292978
> 
> ...



Hi. Difficult one... I'm watching my parents being self-employed and it is difficult and they live quite frugal lifestyles all the time. How did you run up the personal debt? By choice? Was the old company limited?


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## burmo (7 Nov 2012)

From another thread.



44brendan said:


> But what is fairness in this context? If I  borrow money to invest in a business opportunity and that opportunity  fails, is it fair that the Bank or individual that I borrowed the money  from should suffer part of the loss?
> Banks lent money at a relatively low margin (2/3%) to clients to assist  them to purchase property. While the Bank took the properties as  security, their primary recourse was to the individual/s who borrowed  the money and not to the security.



 This is a very good analogy. I'm sick listening to people who want  other people to share the blame for their decisions. If you drink and  drive, if you abuse your health, if you make countless other decisions  then you suffer the consequences (good and bad) but in this case people  want to burden others with the consequences of their free choice. Yet,  as it was pointed out above, if it had worked out in their favour they  wouldn't have wanted to share the gains with the bank.

I haven't bought a house yet because I don't believe it is feasible at  the current level of gearing that I am willing to accept. All these  talks about socialising debt, because having to rent would tear the  fabric of Irish family society... really annoys me. There are so many  vested interests in the media that are trying to prop up house prices  and promote debt forgiveness while still staying in their house! "It was  our dream house..." I've only seen one article so far that talked about  the positive attributes of a stable low priced property market, in  particular to cost of doing business with respect to our external  competition in the EU and further afield.  

Personally I also lost some money in a property investment fund over the  last couple of years... I was told it was boring and a sure thing,  property only goes up... can I have it back? Can I have my capital and  some of the gains back as well? Pretty please?

Like a quote from Mrs. Cornflakes (the Garda's wife)... "How can I be  expected to survive on €2,100 a month" and someone replied... no one  expects you to, that's what you have.



> You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by  legislating the industrious out of it. You don't multiply wealth by  dividing it. Government cannot give anything to anybody that it doesn't  first take from somebody else. Whenever somebody receives something  without working for it, somebody else has to work for it without  receiving. The worst thing that can happen to a nation is for half of  the people to get the idea they don't have to work because somebody else  will work for them, and the other half to get the idea that it does no  good to work because they don't get to enjoy the fruits of their labour.


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## Struggling (7 Nov 2012)

*Personal Responsibility affects others e.g. kids.*



burmo said:


> Hi. Difficult one... I'm watching my parents being self-employed and it is difficult and they live quite frugal lifestyles all the time. How did you run up the personal debt? By choice? Was the old company limited?



Hi Burmo,

Yes by choice. We bought groceries, clothes, petrol and paid other bills by credit cards in order to keep the cash income to pay the mortgage and any other business expenses we owed. This was necessary due to the downturn and a default by two large customers to my husbands business of almost 45k. We hoped to recover the monies and went legal over a 30k bill and got a judgement but never recovered the debt. We ran up credit card bills and then took out term loans to clear them. Always in the belief that things would pick up work wise, the solicitor would recover what we were owed and most importantly, that we didn't want to default on our suppliers as others had to us.

All of this brought us to where we are now but we persevered as there was always supposed to be an end to it. Light at the end of the tunnel etc. However, now the debts are not totally unsustainable, but sustainable at the expense of our happiness, our children's normal needs and wants and without wanting to be too dramatic: at the expense of many years of our pretty short lives.

I don't know what is for the best. The banks, credit card companies etc. never treated us personally in any way badly and we have always lived up to our agreements, but I don't know how much longer we can live like this.

S.


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## PiedPiper (7 Nov 2012)

*Every child in Ireland is born with €10,000 of debt not of their making*

Is there a growing lack of personal responsibility in Irish society?

If every child born in this country is gifted on birth with €10,000 of debt its not a level playing field, born to pay?

Were they born with Defaulter or Sucker on their foreheads?

I think the question shows a complete lack of understanding of how the money system works.

Max Kieser was in Kilkenny and another economist (black) were dumbfounded when people in the audience said they had a moral responsibility to pay the bond holders. And he was asking how? Why are they all insane it’s not your debt, you had no contract its nothing to do with you, why?

There is too much personal responsibility, too many people on the moral high ground, such complete lack of kindness and fairness.

There are people, I joke you not who would think a family would be better off to leave their home and allow it to be sold to give 400% profits to the non irish buyer of a subprime mortgage.

That’s not personal responsibility that’s gross stupidity and will lead us to being a third world nation.

I almost find the question offensive in the context of the Sunday papers this week on how the bankers used the bailout to prop up their pensions and how the only fully funded pension is Anglos.


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## marathonic (7 Nov 2012)

PiedPiper said:


> Every child in Ireland is born with €10,000 of debt not of their making



Yes, and exactly why they shouldn't feel personally responsible for this debt when they grow older - but not a cop-out for the adults of today. 

In fact, it's yet another thing most adults of today should admit to being partially responsible for.


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## PiedPiper (7 Nov 2012)

*Where is the anger and moral outrage coming from?*

There must another level of society.  I am seeing soup kitchens opening and food poverty and you guys know people driving around in BMW’s.  I genuinely don’t everyone I know is struggling or emigrating or fighting off receivers.

Delboy wants to put people on probation no judge no jury do not pass go straight to probation, What’s the crime?

 Marathonic seems to get it where is all the cash then?  

Did it ever exist in the first place?


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## Wishes (7 Nov 2012)

burmo said:


> Is there a growing lack of personal responsibility in Irish society?



If the banks wont take responsibility, then the general public most certainly wont.


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## Novaman (7 Nov 2012)

I think the main issue in Irish society today is that it is totally devoid of any moral leadership and guidance from our elected leaders. If Enda Kenny wanted to show leadership and claim some moral authority he would waive his excessive salary and work for a minimum wage. He is a public servant of some 40 years service - he doesn't seem to be under any personal financial pressure. If he made a symbolic gesture to minimise his own costs to the state by greatly reducing his salary and perks of office, he would gain huge respect from the majority of people as we try to resolve the financial mess that the county is in. 
He could put it up to all the vested interests to show some flexibility and face up to their responsibilities including the unions, bondholders, Angela, banks, the Troika etc etc.....
Otherwise the status quo remains where everybody wants to hold on to what we have and it will end up being the survival of the fittest regardless of the consequences........


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## GDUFFY (7 Nov 2012)

"ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS"
- George Orwell, _Animal Farm_.



A lot of People have lost respect for the political system, the banking system, the public & civil service, the church, Europe, and the Law. Greed is rife in Irish society and nobody really gives a toss about anyone else's problems. Its truly disgusting to see an Irish government consider cutting home help for the most needy in our society while wasting money on the countless moronic money pits we hear about. Strategic default will snowball in the coming years IMO, as the penny drops with people in unsustainable debt situations.
 In times past you would be sent to the work house, but thankfully there are now a range of ways open to European citizens to wipe their debts and start a fresh life. Time and families are your most valuable assets in life, don't be a slave to your unsustainable debts .Use the system to your advantage.


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## riddles (8 Nov 2012)

We have 30 to 40 years of Governments taking a hands off approach letting business operate as it saw fit, happy enough once they got their cut Sopranos style.  They used this money to inflate their pay and all government departments.  The average citizen in the last 10 years plus, particurlarly the age profile most affected with debts now chose to ignore the type of democracy they wanted.  Frequently you would hear the cry "we are a nanny state!", government should stay out of the way.  So we allowed our political system to degenerate into a free for of grubby corruption.  We are now paying through the nose for a collection of over weight over paid scandals who are incapable of leading because the system we have allowed to evolve through disinterest does not allow leadership.  Just look at the dail mary lou macdonald, ming flanagan, the clown norris, so if fg labour went to make the decisions needed the next government would be FF SF and freak show independents.
So kenny gilmore and cos only strategy is to run down the clock and that external forces equally incompetent forces come up with a plan we can use.  Would you be too concerned about others if a 3 million pension fund just around the corner.  

We are and always will be a nation with a spolpeen i'm alright jack mentality.  We had no problem selling off our starter homes to the poor unfortunates last into the great ponsi scheme. 
So our collective ignorance means our society is just one big ponsi scheme with the poor kids in playshool unaware that they are the worst off in it.


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## Bronte (8 Nov 2012)

But didn't a lot of people sign up to what we have now by voting for government to spend spend spend.  

In relation to banks, people kept borrowing.  Is that totally the banks fault.  Does the borrower have any culpability?

Is there nobody here who took out the supposed 'equity' on their homes, nobody who ran up multiple credit card debt, nobody who consolidated, nobody who had an overdraft for years, nobody who took multiple holidays abroad, nobody who bought an unaffordable car, nobody who bought a pad in Bulgaria or Dubai in a Dublin hotel, nobody who partied every week?


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## Bronte (8 Nov 2012)

Struggling said:


> Yes by choice. We bought groceries, clothes, petrol and paid other bills by credit cards in order to keep the cash income to pay the mortgage and any other business expenses we owed. .


 
I hadn't realised you'd posted a comprehensive post in the money makeover until yesterday. In relation to this thread here, you've tried to do the right thing it seems to me, maybe you shouldn't have gotton into debt to pay creditors, but that's easy to say now. Is all your debt solely attributable to this? Did you get all your credit cards in order to pay off suppliers? Obviously Struggling you don't have to answer that if you don't want to. 

I have great admiration for people in business who have done their upmost in trying to keep going. I'm wondering why you were not a limited company, with all the protections that can give you?

You're wondering now is this struggle worth it, but you seem to have a good business going forward, you mentioned your ages, but you're both still relatively young, everybody is having a difficult time currently, but it doesn't mean the good times (not the mad ones !) will come again, especially for those who work hard and persevere. Ireland needs people like you and your husband, to make a good business, to employ people to get the economy going again.  But it's going to be difficult, it's a bad recession, not sure if it's as bad as the eighties.


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## Billo (8 Nov 2012)

Bronte said:


> Is there nobody here who took out the supposed 'equity' on their homes, nobody who ran up multiple credit card debt, nobody who consolidated, nobody who had an overdraft for years, nobody who took multiple holidays abroad, nobody who bought an unaffordable car, nobody who bought a pad in Bulgaria or Dubai in a Dublin hotel, nobody who partied every week?



Lots of people lived within their means during the boom.  I for one am sick and tired of hearing from the media and politicians bankers etc. that we all lived beyond our means and now we all have to pay. But why should those who lived within their means be asked now to bail out those who lived beyond their means. Those who expect to be bailed out are often expecting to hold on to their assets and lifestyle etc.

Billo


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## Bronte (8 Nov 2012)

Struggling, I'm going to ask the mods to move your posts on here to your main thread.  It's better to get a fuller picture of who you are and where you are coming from. Also figures can tend to be boring to a lot of people, not me  but AAM needs a bit of life background to work properly and it helps to get everybody to partake.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Nov 2012)

Bronte said:


> Struggling, I'm going to ask the mods to move your posts on here to your main thread.  It's better to get a fuller picture of who you are and where you are coming from. Also figures can tend to be boring to a lot of people, not me  but AAM needs a bit of life background to work properly and it helps to get everybody to partake.



Done.


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## Delboy (8 Nov 2012)

Billo said:


> Lots of people lived within their means during the boom.  I for one am sick and tired of hearing from the media and politicians bankers etc. that we all lived beyond our means and now we all have to pay. But why should those who lived within their means be asked now to bail out those who lived beyond their means. Those who expect to be bailed out are often expecting to hold on to their assets and lifestyle etc.
> 
> Billo



well said Billo. I lived within by means as did 90% of the people I know in my immediate circle. Yes, those of us who bought houses are in negative equity, and some by large amounts, but none of these people lived the high life during the so called boom...no fancy holidays or apt's purchased abroad, no 5 series beamers, no designer kitchens 
(I do know some people also who did go mad and spent,spent, spent).
But there are a lot of people out there, and a few on here who've discovered AAM lately, who want everyone to get debt forgiveness (and hold on to their houses) including:
- the landlord with several BTL's
- the spend spend spend folk who bought the big houses, way beyond their means
- the cute hoors who've been collecting rent and not paying their mortgage

And I'm supposed to feel bad about not wanting debt forgiveness for everyone...no chance.
Yes, there are genuine people in serious trouble out there. They would be much better off in a lot of cases giving up their houses under a new bankruptcy scheme and starting again by renting etc, rather than trying to pay mortgages that will be beyond their means for years on end. These people need help and should be helped.
(A probation period after declaring bankruptcy such as 3 or 5 years in which you could'nt get a mortgage again...this would help keep the opportunists away from trying to avoid debts they can still afford)


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## riddles (8 Nov 2012)

This is the point - when people could renew their 5 series buy some sh1t hole in Bulgaria - eat in Chapter 1 every week they did not give a sh1t about anyone!  Now their problem is everyones problem.

What about this scenario - debt forgiveness comes in say for the people currently in bother.  The program completes.  

What happens then to the person(s) say who in 5 years time have a problem - they bought a house in 2006 for 400K put 100K deposit and got a 300K loan over 35 years.  

What happens if they are suddenly in difficulty?

The only solution for mortgage debt - property tax for elderly - grants for people with assetts.  The debt \ grant needs to be accrued against whatever assetts are available - then in order for the assett to change ownership the debt must be discharged in full or the assett is sold and debt is first in the queue.

Defferred debt needs to also attract an interest that makes its an option and assistance for people in genuine trouble but not attractive for the won't pays.


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## Gardener (8 Nov 2012)

I have read umpteen threads on this forum about the MARP process and believe this is a major contributor to peoples irresponsible approach to their mortgage debt. 

I am also aware of people who are in the resolution process, who are paying their mortgage company a token amount each, month whilst arranging to buy a similar house in the same area worth today's values, all paid for in cash and bought outright via one of their siblings.  When the new house is purchased only then will they hand the keys back to the bank on their old home.   

There is too much faffing about with MARP and the banks are incapable of making any form of resolution.  

As a TAX payer my blame lies primarily with the banks.


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## burmo (8 Nov 2012)

Gardener said:


> I am also aware of people who are in the resolution process, who are paying their mortgage company a token amount each, month whilst arranging to buy a similar house in the same area worth today's values, all paid for in cash and bought outright via one of their siblings.  When the new house is purchased only then will they hand the keys back to the bank on their old home.



I hadn't heard of this. I don't need to put into words what it makes me feel!


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## 44brendan (8 Nov 2012)

To be fair I think the case referenced by Gardener related to a Post put on here in respect of action taken by a relation of the poster. These things tend to happen and it's not a reflection of an endemic problem. 
The core tenet of the OP is individual responsibility for their/our own actions. 
Many of the responses are agian looking for a focus of blame such as Government or Banks. While individuals in Government and in Banks did play their part in causing the Economic crash, not many people can claim that they were forced into borrowing money that they could not afford to repay. 
I accept full responsibility for my own borrowings and the consequences of not meeting repayments on my loans. I don't see why all borrowers can not see the equity in this. Having said that, I also believe that those in genuine difficulties should be offered a solution and ultimately a chance to start again without carrying a level of unsustainable debt. This solution can not involve wholesale debt forgiveness and should only be made available to those whose debt position is unsustainable. The new legislation does have its flaws, but may well offer some light at the end of the tunnel for those, most in need. Lets see how it operates!


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## Gardener (8 Nov 2012)

Unfortunately the case I speak of was not mentioned on this forum but was a lot closer to home, my daughters friends' parents.  Its a little more endemic than one might think.


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## Bronte (9 Nov 2012)

44brendan said:


> To be fair I think the case referenced by Gardener related to a Post put on here in respect of action taken by a relation of the poster. These things tend to happen and it's not a reflection of an endemic problem.


 
I wouldn't be so sure.  I too know someone planning this. They won't be able to I think but it is the thinking out there now.  Now sure how prevelant it is.  

We've even seen a bankrupt developer manage to come back and live in his previous mansion which was bought by his in law.  People can learn a lot from the actions of developers.


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## lovelyhorse (9 Nov 2012)

Delboy said:


> well said Billo. I lived within by means as did 90% of the people I know in my immediate circle. Yes, those of us who bought houses are in negative equity, and some by large amounts, but none of these people lived the high life during the so called boom...no fancy holidays or apt's purchased abroad, no 5 series beamers, no designer kitchens
> (I do know some people also who did go mad and spent,spent, spent).
> But there are a lot of people out there, and a few on here who've discovered AAM lately, who want everyone to get debt forgiveness (and hold on to their houses) including:
> - the landlord with several BTL's
> ...



Hear hear, I totally agree. Find these attitudes very frustrating.


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## PiedPiper (10 Nov 2012)

*The bankers pinched the money and your still blaming wrong people!!!*

"This bank got around €​5 billion in bailout money, a chunk of which was supposed to be used for debt forgiveness for customers who had taken out mortgages during the boom and now were deep in negative equity and unable to make repayments because of pay cuts or job loss. 

How many mortgages like that have you written off? the bank boss was asked. None, was the answer.
The banks are holding on to all the bailout money and the government seems powerless to do anything about it." 

Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/story/r...nomy-is-palpable-178080531.html#ixzz2Bq2eTKqL


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## Kerrigan (10 Nov 2012)

And the moral of the story is, why are we as citizens of this country fighting amongst one another, over who gets a write down of debt or who doesn't? 

We have all being douped. The tax payer is being being used as a mug by these delinquient banks and all we as a nation can do is blame each other. 

Come on folks, you're more intelligent than this.


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## GDUFFY (10 Nov 2012)

Its the old divide and conquer. And now they have used the money, given for the purpose of debt write downs, to re-inflate their pension pot so they can sail off into the sunset. What a swindle ! no matter how they dress it up.        What I can't understand for the life of me is how the great and the good of this country accept this. People who bang on about how they lived within their means in the good times etc. etc. and are looking for public floggings are really missing the point and are nothing more than puppets on strings. You have already bought and paid for debt write downs, but are too blinkered to see you have been robbed again.


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## Wishes (11 Nov 2012)

Well said GDuffy.

Take the councils as an example, they are currently taking mortgage applications from their present tenants, with a 60% price reduction on current property values.  The council are arranging these mortgages at a variable rate.  This is a disaster waiting to happen.  I know of one applicant who has successfully been mortgage approved while having an impaired credit history.

We all are aware that the councils have no funds.  We are also told as good citizens to pay our property charges because the council needs money to fully operate.  Anyone who doesn't corporate is accused of having no moral code.  The flog 'em on the street brigade will also complain about the non property tax payers.  Can you blame them for not paying when they see so much waste going on around them, houses been handed away for a song and blatant stupidity. 

The same goes for the banks.  

When will people finally wake up?


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