# Farmer's protest march in Dublin



## gnubbit (17 Apr 2008)

I live in apartment near Christchurch.  A short while ago, I heard a strange murmuring sound and looked out my window.  There's a silent march going past; when I say silent, quiet would be a better word!  I've seen a lot of marches and protests over the years but never one as quiet and dignified as this so I'd love to know what it's about.  A lot of the placards seem to be from farmer's groups I think.


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## juke (17 Apr 2008)

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Yes - it is the farmers - see here
[broken link removed]


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## gnubbit (17 Apr 2008)

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Aha!  Thanks for the link - I feel like a typical townie who knows nothing about anything that happens beyond the Pale!  There was really something quite moving about this.  I've seen so many while living here and have become immune to them.  This was something very different - "strong words softly spoken" comes to mind.  I wish them well with their cause.


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## csirl (17 Apr 2008)

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Farmers complaining that getting 85% of their income paid by the taxpayer isnt hight enough.


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## Berlin (17 Apr 2008)

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hight?


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## gnubbit (17 Apr 2008)

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csirl said:


> Farmers complaining that getting 85% of their income paid by the taxpayer isnt hight enough.



I don't think that's how they'd see it.  Any farmers I know work very hard for a relatively small return.  As I sit here munching a yummy bacon buttie (Irish bacon, bread and butter) I'm thinking where would I be without them


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## efm (17 Apr 2008)

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csirl said:


> Farmers complaining that getting 85% of their income paid by the taxpayer isnt hight enough.


 
That's right...feckin farmers...the world would be better off without them...why can't they just go to Tesco like the rest of us!


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## runner (17 Apr 2008)

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Farmers are outstanding in their own field!


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## Purple (17 Apr 2008)

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efm said:


> That's right...feckin farmers...the world would be better off without them...why can't they just go to Tesco like the rest of us!


 LOL


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## Green (17 Apr 2008)

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gnubbit said:


> I don't think that's how they'd see it. Any farmers I know work very hard for a relatively small return.


 
Then why don't they quit farming and go into another profession/industry where rewards are more comensurate with their efforts?


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## gnubbit (17 Apr 2008)

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YOBR said:


> Then why don't they quit farming and go into another profession/industry where rewards are more comensurate with their efforts?



Why should they?


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## Purple (17 Apr 2008)

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gnubbit said:


> Why should they?


Because of the hardship and low income which they complain about?


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## gnubbit (17 Apr 2008)

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Purple said:


> Because of the hardship and low income which they complain about?



I previously said I knew farmers who worked hard for relatively little return but they have never complained to me about it; it's just an observation on my part.

Assuming that farmers do complain about it though, I feel they are justified.  They are doing necessary work and conditions are hard and financial reward is small.

I don't think complaining means that they should have to change job. Now that I think about it, most people seem to complain about their work conditions to some degree and it is often constructive, leading to improvements   For example I know nurses who complained loudly about their conditions and there were changes for the better (with plenty more room for improvement!).  Pharmacists are complaining about how they are paid for the various schemes.  If they (or the nurses or farmers or whoever) simply decided to swap jobs, I think we'd all be in a right pickle.

Another thing, the farmers I know would not be able to get another job because of factors like age, education, experience, family commitments  and what's available where they live.  So changing career isn't necessarily an option for everyone.

I'm not an expert - these are just my feelings on the subject.


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## Green (17 Apr 2008)

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gnubbit said:


> If they (or the nurses or farmers or whoever) simply decided to swap jobs, I think we'd all be in a right pickle.
> 
> Another thing, the farmers I know would not be able to get another job because of factors like age, education, experience, family commitments and what's available where they live. So changing career isn't necessarily an option for everyone.
> 
> I'm not an expert - these are just my feelings on the subject.


 
IMHO I think the key for farmers is to try and increase their income streams by other means and enterprises, there has been a large increase in farmers markets and organic produce along with other initiatives and enterprises which be run on the farm land..


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## Jack The Lad (17 Apr 2008)

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gnubbit said:


> There was really something quite moving about this. I've seen so many while living here and have become immune to them. This was something very different - "strong words softly spoken" comes to mind. I wish them well with their cause.


 
I'm just back from Dublin - I was there to attend the protest with my family, and fellow farmers. Thank you for your kind words gnubbit!

Actualy the protest was not only attended by farmers, but significantly it was also supported and attended by representatives of most of the industries who operate in the agricultural industry, for example Co-Operatives, Teagasc, the Meat Processing industry, Creamerys etc, and also members of the Ulster Farming Union. As far as I know this is the first time in history that the entire Irish agricultural industry has come together to protest with a single voice. If it was moving to see, believe me, it was twice as moving to be involved.

Without going too deeply into the myriad of details as to what the protest was all about... there's plenty of info in the national newspapers... the direction the WTO talks are taking at the moment, if ratified, will have devestating consequences for the entire European Agricultural Industry, and Ireland in particular - and, perhaps more importantly, for everyone who puts food into their mouths every day, and cares about the food they are eating and where it comes from. It's not just about subsidies, it's about food, and that means everyone, not just the farming community, needs to kick up a big fuss, and soon.


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## Brianne (17 Apr 2008)

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Well said. This is very important to all of us  whether we like it or not.


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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YOBR said:


> Then why don't they quit farming and go into another profession/industry where rewards are more comensurate with their efforts?



At least half of Irish farmers have done exactly that in the past 15-20 years.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> At least half of Irish farmers have done exactly that in the past 15-20 years.


 
Have some of these farmers received Government payments/inducements to do this? I think older farmers get inducements to sign over the family farm to sons/daughters?


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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There was an early retirement scheme to incentivise older farmers to transfer or lease their farms to others (not necessarily family members) but the take-up on this was minor as it was subject to strict conditions including iirc a requirement for the younger farmer to farm full-time. Only a small minority of farmers are now in this category. 

The exodus of farmers from agriculture long preceded the early retirement scheme and has continued unabated since its cessation.


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## Jack The Lad (18 Apr 2008)

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YOBR said:


> Have some of these farmers received Government payments/inducements to do this? I think older farmers get inducements to sign over the family farm to sons/daughters?


 
The statistics commonly quoted relating to farmers leaving agriculture in the past 15-20 years would not include retiring farmers passing their farm to sons/daughters. For example, if 1,000 farmers retired and passed their farms on to 1,000 sons/daughters there would still be 1,000 farmers. The exodus is quite real and very visible throughout rural communities in Ireland.

The amount received through the retirement scheme depends on the size of the farm being transferred, but cannot amount to more than approx. €13,000 per anum. This is paid from 1 to 10 years depending on the age of the retiree. So the absolute maximum receivable is €13,000 p.a. for 10 years. The average received is far less. Not much of an income in fairness.

But to return to the original theme of this thread - the protest in Dublin yesterday was ultimately about food, and genuinely concerns everyone, not just farmers and the thousands working in the food industry. The outcome of the WTO talks in Geneva in May is not abstract, and will have profound and immediate implications for us all.


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## diarmuidc (18 Apr 2008)

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YOBR said:


> Then why don't they quit farming and go into another profession/industry where rewards are more comensurate with their efforts?


In fairness it's not that simple. Do we (EU citizens) want to be dependent totally on external sources of food in the same way that we are at the mercy of Russia/Mid East for our energy? What happens when our food source is taken over by a more hostile government?


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## cork (18 Apr 2008)

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Farming in rural areas need protection. 

I would hate to see large ranchs or factory style operations.

From an environment point of view - we need to grow food locally. 

From a socail point of view - these farms are needed.

From a consumer viewpoint - expecting foods that are out of season to be on supermarket shelves will not be on.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

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cork said:


> From a consumer viewpoint - expecting foods that are out of season to be on supermarket shelves will not be on.


If only someone would invent the greenhouse


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## shanegl (18 Apr 2008)

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How about removing the subsidies and letting the consumer decide if they want to pay higher prices for locally produced goods or not?


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

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shanegl said:


> How about removing the subsidies and letting the consumer decide if they want to pay higher prices for locally produced goods or not?


 What, you mean adults making their own decisions in a free market?!  That's not the socialist way!


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## shanegl (18 Apr 2008)

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## michaelm (18 Apr 2008)

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shanegl said:


> How about removing the subsidies and letting the consumer decide if they want to pay higher prices for locally produced goods or not?


I think there's merit in a nation being able to feed itself.  I like the idea of food security (and energy/fuel security for that matter).  If that requires support for farmers (and fishermen) through subsidies then so be it.  I hate that we're paying farmers and fishermen to give up their livelihoods.


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## Klesser (18 Apr 2008)

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I for one would pay extra. I live in rural Ireland and there is plenty of farms around.  If these farmers are forced out of the market than we will have to rely on low grade mass produced meat or non irish meat.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

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Klesser said:


> I for one would pay extra. I live in rural Ireland and there is plenty of farms around.  If these farmers are forced out of the market than we will have to rely on low grade mass produced meat or non irish meat.


Why do you think that all farmers would be forced out of the market? I don't think that this is possible.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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diarmuidc said:


> In fairness it's not that simple. Do we (EU citizens) want to be dependent totally on external sources of food in the same way that we are at the mercy of Russia/Mid East for our energy? What happens when our food source is taken over by a more hostile government?


 
I dont think it will be one or the other, what seems to be quoted are two extremes of the diameter...farming like all other sectors has to change and adapt...


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## cork (18 Apr 2008)

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Klesser said:


> I for one would pay extra. I live in rural Ireland and there is plenty of farms around. If these farmers are forced out of the market than we will have to rely on low grade mass produced meat or non irish meat.


 
I agree. 

Left to the market we'd get low quality mass produced stuff that is not traceable.


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## bb12 (18 Apr 2008)

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the reality is that only for the subsidies, there would be a real reduction of farmers in ireland...the real problem is the discrepency between the prices that the farmer gets paid at source compared the price that the consumer pays in the supermarket...the middle men are cleaning up. go to a local stock mart and see exactly how much a whole sheep will fetch, then go to the supermarket and see how much a leg will cost!! 

if the subsidies stop(which a lot of them are about to in 2013 btw), irish farmers will get out of the game even faster than they currently are, and we'll all be eating dodgy brazilian beef and imported chicken etc...do you really fancy the idea of eating a piece of lettuce that has travelled thousands of miles to get to your plate as opposed to one that was grown in Rush?  

irish consumers need to become more food aware (which i think they are btw) and demand irish products which are fresh, safe and can be traced back to exactly where they came from.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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bb12 said:


> we'll all be eating dodgy brazilian beef and imported chicken etc...do you really fancy the idea of eating a piece of lettuce that has travelled thousands of miles to get to your plate as opposed to one that was grown in Rush?


 
In my view, it is scaremongering, to suggest that everyone in Ireland will be eating imported food. In anycase what is wrong with food from the EU, sure dont they have common food standards with us?


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

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cork said:


> Left to the market we'd get low quality mass produced stuff that is not traceable.


 What leads you to this conclusion?
Do you not think that there would be demand for good quality food? 
Do you think that the Dept. of Agriculture food standards we now have will be removed if farmers in Ireland are producing less food? Why would we not regulate imported food? 
I don't see the logic behind your views.


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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YOBR said:


> there has been a large increase in farmers markets...



...within which the vast majority of traders are neither farmers nor food producers.


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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shanegl said:


> How about removing the subsidies and letting the consumer decide if they want to pay higher prices for locally produced goods or not?



The consumer will pay heavily for this privilege, unless they want to eat untraceable meat, poultry & dairy products from the Third World. The likes of Tesco will, as normal, pocket the additional margins and the consumer will save nothing.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> ...within which the vast majority of traders are neither farmers nor food producers.


Good opening for farmers so; they can take the producers margin and the sellers margin.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> The consumer will pay heavily for this privilege, unless they want to eat untraceable meat, poultry & dairy products from the Third World. The likes of Tesco will, as normal, pocket the additional margins and the consumer will save nothing.


  The supermarkets sell what the customer wants. If the market wants good quality traceable food then that's what they will sell.
BTW, the consumer is already paying for it; the EU subsidies don't come out of thin air.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> ...within which the vast majority of traders are neither farmers nor food producers.


 
You seem to want it everyway, one the one hand you complain about the price farmers get paid (see quote below) and on the other hand you dont want to reap the opportunity presented by selling direct to the public (see quote above). All you seem to want is that the status quo......



bb12 said:


> the reality is that only for the subsidies, there would be a real reduction of farmers in ireland...the real problem is the discrepency between the prices that the farmer gets paid at source compared the price that the consumer pays in the supermarket...the middle men are cleaning up. go to a local stock mart and see exactly how much a whole sheep will fetch, then go to the supermarket and see how much a leg will cost!!


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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Sorry the piece you quoted was "Originally Posted by bb12", not by me.

I am not bb12.

Fwiw, despite their name, Farmers markets are NOT generally a realistic option for farmers to sell their produce to the public. That is why the vast majority of traders in such markets are not farmers. Not many consumers are interested in buying whole bullocks or unpasteurised milk.


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## shanegl (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> The consumer will pay heavily for this privilege, unless they want to eat untraceable meat, poultry & dairy products from the Third World. The likes of Tesco will, as normal, pocket the additional margins and the consumer will save nothing.


 
Yes, the consumers that actually want to pay higher prices for good quality local produce. The ones that don't won't have to subsidise the farmers any more.

I also agree with others who say that this is not an either/or situation.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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Apologies, ubiquitous I was not meaning to suggest that you and bb12 were the same person. I was using the word "You" in a global term.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> Not many consumers are interested in buying whole bullocks or unpasteurised milk.


  Good point.


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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shanegl said:


> Yes, the consumers that actually want to pay higher prices for good quality local produce. The ones that don't won't have to subsidise the farmers any more.



They won't be subsidising the farmers, they will just be subsidising the likes of Tesco & Wal-Mart.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> Not many consumers are interested in buying whole bullocks or unpasteurised milk.


 
Perhaps not those specific items, but what is to stop farmers finding out what consumers want and sell it to them, I think its called marketing
Anyone ever seen Jimmy's Farm ...http://www.jimmysfarm.com/shop/


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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Jimmy's Farm sounds more like a large-scale estate/industrial enterprise than anything else. It certainly does not sound like an operation that could be sustained on a typical owner-managed family farm. For a start, there is no way that a normal family farm would be permitted under this country's health regulations to produce AND process, chicken AND beef AND pork, unless each unit was run for all intents and purposes as separate enterprises. The risk of disease and cross-contamination of produce would horrify the Dept of Agriculture.


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## cork (18 Apr 2008)

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bb12 said:


> the reality is that only for the subsidies, there would be a real reduction of farmers in ireland..


 
Grants and subsidies are a factor in most industries.

Look at the money Intel got from the state.

Farmers are an easy target. People moan about the price of milk but see no problem with the price of a pint of guinness.

The supermarkets often get a bigger margin than the farmers. 

This is a disgrace.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> Jimmy's Farm sounds more like a large-scale estate/industrial enterprise than anything else. It certainly does not sound like an operation that could be sustained on a typical owner-managed family farm. For a start, there is no way that a normal family farm would be permitted under this country's health regulations to produce AND process, chicken AND beef AND pork, unless each unit was run for all intents and purposes as separate enterprises. The risk of disease and cross-contamination of produce would horrify the Dept of Agriculture.


 
I watched the TV programme and it wasn't like that ...in any case surely the same rules in the UK as apply here?


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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YOBR said:


> Perhaps not those specific items, but what is to stop farmers finding out what consumers want and sell it to them, I think its called marketing



In Ireland, one of the strengths of our food industry is that producers produce and marketers market. The fusion of marketing and production has been a disaster in the UK and other markets. You only have to look at the bird flu scandal that engulfed the Bernard Matthews turkey conglomerate for a recent example.


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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YOBR said:


> ...in any case surely the same rules in the UK as apply here?



Not necessarily. The regulations governing animal tagging & movement are much more lax in Northern Ireland than in the Republic for example. As I say, the likes of Jimmy's Farm could not exist here, unless as a factory-type operation with totally separate production units and processes.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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				ubiquitous;614119 As I say said:
			
		

> Jimmy's farm is not a factory type operation...Its just another example of farmers here wanting to keep the status quo...how many years has it been since New Zealand scrapped all their food subsidies...


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> In Ireland, one of the strengths of our food industry is that producers produce and marketers market. The fusion of marketing and production has been a disaster in the UK and other markets. You only have to look at the bird flu scandal that engulfed the Bernard Matthews turkey conglomerate for a recent example.


 
So a local farmer cannot find out what the local market wants, grow it, and then sell it at a local market.....really???????


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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YOBR said:


> So a local farmer cannot find out what the local market wants, grow it, and then sell it at a local market.....really???????



Well, for a start, outside Counties Dublin, Meath and parts of Wexford and Kilkenny and isolated spots in a few other counties, practically all of Irish farmland is not of sufficient quality to support the commercial growing of vegetables or cereals, that is without application of obscene levels of fertilisers. And as I said earlier, consumers are not really interested in buying whole beasts or unpasteurised milk. And any farmer wanting to open their own abattoir and/or butchery will get short shrift from the Dept of Ag....


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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YOBR said:


> ...Its just another example of farmers here wanting to keep the status quo...



Btw I'm not a farmer.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> Well, for a start, outside Counties Dublin, Meath and parts of Wexford and Kilkenny and isolated spots in a few other counties, practically all of Irish farmland is not of sufficient quality to support the commercial growing of vegetables or cereals, that is without application of obscene levels of fertilisers. And as I said earlier, consumers are not really interested in buying whole beasts or unpasteurised milk. And any farmer wanting to open their own abattoir and/or butchery will get short shrift from the Dept of Ag....


 
It would appear that you have a problem for every solution, how typical of Irish farmers...keep the status quo and let the taxpayer, be they Irish or European, keep sending out the cheque...


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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Again I'm not a farmer. You ignore the possibility that the status quo exists as it is the best (or least worst) alternative possible, and choose instead to typecast farmers as unimaginative thickos. What makes me suspect that you don't really know a whole lot about agriculture and food production?


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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I have never intimated that you are a farmer or that Irish farmers are unitelligent. Indeed, irish farmers are have proved to be a very effect lobby group when it comes to dealing with Government. what am I challenging is the fact of the need for change in Irish agriculture ...you can survive withouit subsidies...why not look at http://www.newfarm.org/features/0303/newzealand_subsidies.shtml and the attached quote

"New Zealand agriculture is profitable without subsidies, and that means more people staying in the business: Alone among developed countries of the world, New Zealand has virtually the same percentage of its population employed in agriculture today as it did 30 years ago, and the same number of people living in rural areas as it did in 1920.”


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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I don't have an issue with Irish farming following the NZ model, if this is practical.  In fact I would welcome it. However as a non-farmer I suspect that the reasons why this has not been done are a good bit more complex than you imagine. For a start you don't seem to appreciate that the size and profile of the average farm in NZ (a large scale factory farm) is on a  totally different scale to that in Ireland (a small owner-managed operation). You are comparing apples with oranges.

[broken link removed]


> Farm size and numbers
> 
> The average size of sheep farms increased by 19 percent from 467 hectares in 1994 to 554 hectares in 2002. Over the same period, the strong growth in the national dairy herd resulted in the average dairy farm increasing from 102 to 146 hectares. There were 13,000 farms engaged in sheep farming and 14,000 engaged in farming dairy cattle in 2002. Respectively, these farms occupied 7.2 million and 2.1 million hectares of land.





[broken link removed]


> # There are around 130,000 farmers in Ireland.
> ...
> # Average farm size is 32 hectares with almost 50% of farms less than 20 hectares.
> # According to the Teagasc National Farm Survey, on 35% of farms the farmer combines farming with an off-farm job. On 48% of farms, the farmer and/or the spouse have an off-farm job. Farmers with off-farm employment are predominantly involved in cattle or sheep farming.


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## Green (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> I don't have an issue with Irish farming following the NZ model, if this is practical. In fact I would welcome it. However as a non-farmer I suspect that the reasons why this has not been done are a good bit more complex than you imagine. For a start you don't seem to appreciate that the size and profile of the average farm in NZ (a large scale factory farm) is totally on a different scale to that in Ireland (a small owner-managed operation). You are comparing apples with oranges.


 
This is precisely my point, Irish farming in its current state is unsustainable and that is why we need to move to different models, e.g. New Zealand...if this means that the smaller farmers will leave (which I suspect is the trend anyway) then so be it....


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## ubiquitous (18 Apr 2008)

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Yes but then you are in a position where instead of a large number of small farms, you end up with a small number of factory outfits - the farming equivalents of Dunnes Stores & Larry Goodman. 

I don't know how you can reconcile this with your ideal of farmers selling their own products in local markets.

The experience in the UK has been that the trends in this direction have been at the expense of food safety, animal welfare and public confidence in the product.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

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ubiquitous said:


> Yes but then you are in a position where instead of a large number of small farms, you end up with a small number of factory outfits - the farming equivalents of Dunnes Stores & Larry Goodman.
> 
> I don't know how you can reconcile this with your ideal of farmers selling their own products in local markets.
> 
> The experience in the UK has been that the trends in this direction have been at the expense of food safety, animal welfare and public confidence in the product.



The arguement that we should continue to subsidise a sector that it not viable in it's current form because our government is crap at regulation does not really stack up.


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## Jack The Lad (18 Apr 2008)

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Purple, I totaly agree with your location description! 


Seriously though. The last few anti-agri arguments here are all over the place. I'd like to address two of them.

1 - A farmer has the skill and experience to walk in to a field and produce food from it. For 99.9% of farmers that is an all consuming, 24/7 job... there isn't time to package, market and sell the food as well. There just isn't. It's heavy, tiring labour. There was a time, maybe when everyone in the family could chip in and help, and some produce was sold from the farm gate, eggs, and butter and the like. But now, because farm income is so poor, spouses and sons and daughters are working in different industries, even part-time employees are impossible to find, and so most farmers farm alone. The fortunate few who can sell their own produce are exceptional, or farm in exceptional circumstances.

2 - It would cost the average Irish farmer a minimum of €2,000,000 to scale up to the minimum NZ size farm, and that's before stocking it. Also Irish climate and Dept Agriculture regulations means stock has to be housed for about 5 months every year, a cost that NZ farmers do not have to consider. And speaking of the Department of Agriculture, NZ farmers would start a civil war if they had to deal with the absolutely crazy red-tape and regulations currently strangling their Irish counterparts. Up-scaling is just not going to happen. Forget it.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



Jack The Lad said:


> Purple, I totaly agree with your location description!



Leave me alone, I like it here with my blue arsed flying penguins...

By the way I think farming in Ireland is a difficult job. I don't agree with those who say they have it easy. But the reality is that for most farmers their traditional way of life is just not viable. This is painful to face up to but no less true for that. The only thing that keeps them on the land is an international trade structure which, in my opinion, is evil. I just don't think that anything can justify the suffering we are causing by restricting capitalism in this way. The up-side of Globalisation is that it allows poor economies to develop. This can take years and can cause huge upheavals and much pain in the transitional period but what we are inflicting on farmers in the developing world in a kind of eternal limbo. They have the bare faced coldness of capitalism with the protectionism and barriers of socialism holding them in place forever. Nothing we seek to hold onto here is worth that price.

Please don’t think I don’t know what that is like; I watched my grandfather’s business fall apart due to imports from developing economies. I was only a child but it stuck with me.  At some stage in the future my own business may well be destroyed by Chinese (or other) competition but I would honestly rather that than have my sustainability dependant on keeping others held in poverty and misery because of unjust protectionist trade barriers.


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## Jack The Lad (18 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*

Ok. Have to say, I really admire you for your principles, and for sticking to them. And I understand where you are comming from. I've actualy been to parts of the third world, and seen the devestating poverty, and spoken with people who had nothing. It's a shocking and humbling experience, one I will never forget. If I believed for one moment that eliminating subsidies and throwing the trade doors open would help them then I would have to say that my conscience would not allow me to continue as a farmer under current conditions. 

So why am I arguing from the opposite corner? I know from the bitter experience of selling my produce to the intermediaries of the food industry that abolishing the CAP will have little or no impact on third world farmers profits. The only people who will profit are the big players, the multinationals, the powerful. There will be no trickle-down. The truth is that imperfect as it is, the EU system at least ensures that good, healthy, safe food is produced, and can be done so without driving the farming community into poverty, and the ultimate benefit is that pretty much everyone can afford to buy food for themselves and their families. 

In the comming years, with the many contrary forces currently at play (oil, global warming, food security) the ideal situation would be a world in which _all_ farmers globally are subsidised, in some way, at least enough to keep them in business, and to keep a guarantee of food in everyones bowl, and to ensure that food is grown within a reasonable distance of it's ultimate destination. I genuinely fear that if Europe's farmers are driven from their farms, then the only result will be more people on the poverty line, insufficient global food supplies, more hungry people, greater unrest. It will be a lose/lose outcome. The only beneficiaries will be the Tesco's and Monsanto's of the world.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*

The problem is not that food in the EU would be more expensive it is that at the moment EU food is cheaper in Africa than African food. We use our economic might to force their door open to our subsidised produce while at the same time we do not allow their produce in. That is what traps them in a poverty cycle, that is what is so unjust. As long as the CAP is in place there is no way of stopping this from happening since our subsidies artificially deflate the selling price of the produce.

Anyway, I'm meant to be working (and keeping the Yanks happy)


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## MOB (18 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*

"As long as the CAP is in place there is no way of stopping this from happening since our subsidies artificially deflate the selling price of the produce."

It is a little more nuanced than that.  We did have subsidies which were directly linked to production; This encouraged overproduction and the creation of food mountains.  Decoupling is now the order of the day.  A farmer gets a subsidy which is not in any way related to his production level.  His decision to produce milk or grain or whatever is now based solely on the market for his produce.   It is true that the EU is a protected market, but it is no longer the case (or certainly it is much less the case) that we have through subsidies caused the overproduction of food with the consequent result of dumping it below cost abroad.    Dairy farmers are already calling for an end to milk quota and the entitlement to compete on the world market.  The CAP is moving in the right direction.


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



MOB said:


> "As long as the CAP is in place there is no way of stopping this from happening since our subsidies artificially deflate the selling price of the produce."
> 
> It is a little more nuanced than that.  We did have subsidies which were directly linked to production; This encouraged overproduction and the creation of food mountains.  Decoupling is now the order of the day.  A farmer gets a subsidy which is not in any way related to his production level.  His decision to produce milk or grain or whatever is now based solely on the market for his produce.   It is true that the EU is a protected market, but it is no longer the case (or certainly it is much less the case) that we have through subsidies caused the overproduction of food with the consequent result of dumping it below cost abroad.    Dairy farmers are already calling for an end to milk quota and the entitlement to compete on the world market.  The CAP is moving in the right direction.


I agree that moves have been made in the right direction (pushed for by the Americans at the GATT talks) but the barriers to entry are still there and so are the deflationary subsidies (though the oversupply is, for the most part, gone).


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## room305 (18 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



cork said:


> From an environment point of view - we need to grow food locally.


 
I don't buy this. Is it really that bad for the environment if green beans are farmed manually in Kenya and then packed by the tonne onto a cargo plane to be transported to the EU market? Compared with say the option of growing those same beans under electric lights in a heated glass house in Ireland and transporting them by truck to the local Tesco?



cork said:


> Left to the market we'd get low quality mass produced stuff that is not traceable.


 
Right, because without the CAP scheme every Michelin restaurant in the country would suddenly say "Yeah, sure we just feed them any aul' crap, we wouldn't care if we found the cow dead behind the dumpster two weeks ago, we'll mince it up and serve it - sure without the subsidies nobody has any tastebuds anymore ..."



bb12 said:


> ...do you really fancy the idea of eating a piece of lettuce that has travelled thousands of miles to get to your plate as opposed to one that was grown in Rush?


 
So if I understand your point here, you are saying that you prefer locally sourced produce but are not convinced everybody else does (the response on this thread would suggest otherwise) and as a consequence are worried the market will disappear unless the government intervenes to maintain it. Isn't this just Marxist socialism applied to food?


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## Jack The Lad (19 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> I don't buy this. Is it really that bad for the environment if green beans are farmed manually in Kenya and then packed by the tonne onto a cargo plane to be transported to the EU market?


 
... Yes. That would be a disaster. Unless you are proposing that we all switch to a permanent diet of green beans, there would be thousands of tonnes of every imaginable food flying on planes overhead constantly. Every minute, every hour, every day. It would be environmental suicide, among other things, and it beggars belief that you would suggest otherwise!


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## room305 (20 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



Jack The Lad said:


> ... Yes. That would be a disaster. Unless you are proposing that we all switch to a permanent diet of green beans, there would be thousands of tonnes of every imaginable food flying on planes overhead constantly. Every minute, every hour, every day. It would be environmental suicide, among other things, and it beggars belief that you would suggest otherwise!


 
Do you have a problem with Irish farmers exporting produce to other countries?


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## Jack The Lad (20 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*

That's a good question.

I haven't got the exact figures but _in general_ the bulk of Irish grown food is exported to Great Britain, and then a smaller portion to Europe. There would be some beef and lamb exports to the middle east, and Russia but although it's an important outlet, it's only a percentage. So Irish food exports do create an additional carbon footprint, without a doubt.

In my previous post I was referring to wholesale trans-global movement of food covering thousands of miles, and weeks of storage from other continents to Europe. Specifically beef from Brazil, lamb and dairy produce from New Zealand, grain from the US. That's thousands of miles, by sea and air, on a constant basis, and I would imagine if you were to compare the carbon output of that projected scenario to that of current Irish exports there would be a radical difference.


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## room305 (21 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



Jack The Lad said:


> That's a good question.
> 
> I haven't got the exact figures but _in general_ the bulk of Irish grown food is exported to Great Britain, and then a smaller portion to Europe. There would be some beef and lamb exports to the middle east, and Russia but although it's an important outlet, it's only a percentage. So Irish food exports do create an additional carbon footprint, without a doubt.
> 
> In my previous post I was referring to wholesale trans-global movement of food covering thousands of miles, and weeks of storage from other continents to Europe. Specifically beef from Brazil, lamb and dairy produce from New Zealand, grain from the US. That's thousands of miles, by sea and air, on a constant basis, and I would imagine if you were to compare the carbon output of that projected scenario to that of current Irish exports there would be a radical difference.


 
Just because something travels several thousand miles to get to a location doesn't mean it has a higher carbon footprint. Hence the example of beans from Kenya. Despite travelling by air to get here, they have a lower carbon footprint than locally sourced beans.

Regardless, I think the carbon footprint argument is poor justification for condemning millions to poverty.

France is the largest recipient of CAP subsidies and over 80% of French CAP payments go to French agribusiness companies. CAP is not necessarily payments to farmers.

In 2005 Oxfam calculated that there were over 1 billion on this planet living on less than $1 a day. CAP payments for the average cow came to $2.62 a head in 2003. More money than half the world's population live on.

How can this madness be justified?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2005/oct/17/eu.internationalaidanddevelopment


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## ubiquitous (21 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> Just because something travels several thousand miles to get to a location doesn't mean it has a higher carbon footprint. Hence the example of beans from Kenya. Despite travelling by air to get here, they have a lower carbon footprint than locally sourced beans.



According to Saturday's FT, the whole carbon footprint debate is starting to become a thing of the past anyway. Its now a year since the Stern Report was published and it is already largely forgotten. The twin global problems of the credit crunch and the food supply crisis are now concentrating policymakers' minds at the expense of a climate change problem that may or may not transpire in several decades time.



room305 said:


> Regardless, I think the carbon footprint argument is poor justification for condemning millions to poverty.


I agree



room305 said:


> CAP is not necessarily payments to farmers.



I agree. The biggest beneficiary of CAP payments in the UK is Her Majesty and her family. The biggest beneficiary in Ireland is Larry Goodman.


room305 said:


> In 2005 Oxfam calculated that there were over 1 billion on this planet living on less than $1 a day. CAP payments for the average cow came to $2.62 a head in 2003. More money than half the world's population live on.
> 
> How can this madness be justified?


The article say that "the comparison has been a cause of outrage" but imho it is absolutely bogus. You could use the same logic to decry almost any aspect of Western social or economic behaviour - for example the $x billion spent on alcohol/cosmetics/kids sweets/haircuts/smug liberal newspapers/dieting in the EU & US every year. Reminds me of the old whinge that the Catholic Church's policies on contraception are to blame for the AIDS crisis in Africa - ignoring the facts (1) that most Africans are Muslims; and (2) Islamic law does not approve of artificial contraception.


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## diarmuidc (21 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> Regardless, I think the carbon footprint argument is poor justification for condemning millions to poverty.


Depends. If you don't believe what the IPCC is currently forecasting, then that's a fair position to take. However if you agree with the IPCC fourth report, then ignoring the carbon footprint argument, you are condemning future millions to death, not to mention poverty.


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## room305 (21 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



diarmuidc said:


> Depends. If you don't believe what the IPCC is currently forecasting, then that's a fair position to take. However if you agree with the IPCC fourth report, then ignoring the carbon footprint argument, you are condemning future millions to death, not to mention poverty.


 
If you allow the millions of oppressed to industrialise now then they will be in a far better position to deal with the implications of global warming in fifty years time.

Alternatively you can keep people in poverty, reduce carbon emissions and hope the IPCC are correct in their assertions.

I know which option I'd prefer if I lived in the third world.


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## ubiquitous (21 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> If you allow the millions of oppressed to industrialise now then they will be in a far better position to deal with the implications of global warming in fifty years time.
> 
> Alternatively you can keep people in poverty, reduce carbon emissions and hope the IPCC are correct in their assertions.
> 
> I know which option I'd prefer if I lived in the third world.



The other point is that world incomes have tended to grow with time. Places that were backward and poor have in time become progressive and rich. Bjorn Lomborg makes the point that if Bangladesh, for example, is allowed to industrialise and grow, it should have plenty of resources, in 50-100 years time, to cope with the long-term effects (if any) of climate change, just as the Netherlands is rich enough now to cope with the fact that much of their country is below sea level and they need elaborate systems to protect against flooding. If its development is curtailed now, then it will be hapless in the face of any adversity in the long-term.


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## Purple (21 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



ubiquitous said:


> The article say that "the comparison has been a cause of outrage" but imho it is absolutely bogus. You could use the same logic to decry almost any aspect of Western social or economic behaviour - for example the $x billion spent on alcohol/cosmetics/kids sweets/haircuts/*smug liberal newspapers*/dieting in the EU & US every year. Reminds me of the old whinge that the Catholic Church's policies on contraception are to blame for the AIDS crisis in Africa - ignoring the facts (1) that most Africans are Muslims; and (2) Islamic law does not approve of artificial contraception.


 LOL  I love the bit about the newspapers


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## Jack The Lad (21 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> Just because something travels several thousand miles to get to a location doesn't mean it has a higher carbon footprint. Hence the example of beans from Kenya. Despite travelling by air to get here, they have a lower carbon footprint than locally sourced beans.


 
That's something I wasn't aware of, and I'd be interested in knowing more. Can you elaborate, maybe provide a link or two with independent data to back it up?

Does the same apply to all locally sourced food?

What about staple foods, say potatoes, beef and cheese?


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## Jack The Lad (21 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> France is the largest recipient of CAP subsidies and over 80% of French CAP payments go to French agribusiness companies. CAP is not necessarily payments to farmers.


 
Have to say that as a farmer I do think that huge payments going to agribusiness companies and the likes of L. Goodman and co. is taking it all too far. Unlike us, these guys can make profit without getting fully subsidised for every acre - economy of scale. There should be a sliding scale and/or cap on larger payments.

I agree with you on that point.


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## Jack The Lad (21 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> In 2005 Oxfam calculated that there were over 1 billion on this planet living on less than $1 a day. CAP payments for the average cow came to $2.62 a head in 2003. More money than half the world's population live on.


 
$2.62 x 50 cows x 365 = $47,815 

That's totaly wrong for starters. You could divide it by 4 or 5. Either that, or the Irish Dept. Agriculture has been seriously short-changing us!

And it's a silly comparison.

But it is outrageous that so many people are living on so little. We all have to take responsibility for that.


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## room305 (22 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



ubiquitous said:


> The article say that "the comparison has been a cause of outrage" but imho it is absolutely bogus. You could use the same logic to decry almost any aspect of Western social or economic behaviour - for example the $x billion spent on alcohol/cosmetics/kids sweets/haircuts/smug liberal newspapers/dieting in the EU & US every year. Reminds me of the old whinge that the Catholic Church's policies on contraception are to blame for the AIDS crisis in Africa - ignoring the facts (1) that most Africans are Muslims; and (2) Islamic law does not approve of artificial contraception.


 


Jack The Lad said:


> $2.62 x 50 cows x 365 = $47,815
> 
> That's totaly wrong for starters. You could divide it by 4 or 5. Either that, or the Irish Dept. Agriculture has been seriously short-changing us!
> 
> ...


 
I agree that the link between the two is somewhat facetious and could easily be applied to anything people in the Western world spend money on. But it's still an enormous amount of money and impossible to justify.

I'm not sure how the figure is calculated and whether it takes into account the administrative overheads inherent in such a system. It's also listed as the average amount paid out per cow, so presumably some farmers receive more or less than this amount. Perhaps it is a miscalculation by Oxfam but I have heard similar figures used by Swedish economist Johan Norberg and the Globalisation Institute.

Johan Norbeg perhaps better illustrates the point when he says that a cow purchased in Argentina and flown first class to France for slaughter would cost the EU less than the payments a French cow receives under CAP.



Jack The Lad said:


> Have to say that as a farmer I do think that huge payments going to agribusiness companies and the likes of L. Goodman and co. is taking it all too far. Unlike us, these guys can make profit without getting fully subsidised for every acre - economy of scale. There should be a sliding scale and/or cap on larger payments.
> 
> I agree with you on that point.


 
So you have to ask yourself if it is fair that small farmers should receive preferable treatment in this way, compared to any other small business that struggles against larger competition?

Not all Irish farmers will go out of business with the ending of the CAP, just some. I have relations who own a farm and they are not at all worried about the ending of CAP subsidies. Their attitude is that they sell a premium product, it is internationally recognised as such and people can and should be willing to pay for it as such.



Jack The Lad said:


> That's something I wasn't aware of, and I'd be interested in knowing more. Can you elaborate, maybe provide a link or two with independent data to back it up?
> 
> Does the same apply to all locally sourced food?
> 
> What about staple foods, say potatoes, beef and cheese?


 
It's a complicated subject I'm sure but this might provide a start:



It's at this point I probably should admit that I don't really buy into the doom and gloom surrounding global warming.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=531783&postcount=5


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## Jack The Lad (22 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> I have relations who own a farm and they are not at all worried about the ending of CAP subsidies. Their attitude is that they sell a premium product, it is internationally recognised as such and people can and should be willing to pay for it as such.


 
In an ideal world - yes, absolutely.

In the all too real world - it won't happen.

You can only sell a product at a price the market is willing to pay for it. The market is not willing to pay a premium price for premium food, or even a realistic price (based on the cost of getting it from zero to the shop shelf) for acceptable food. Hence, subsidisation.


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## room305 (22 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



Jack The Lad said:


> You can only sell a product at a price the market is willing to pay for it. The market is not willing to pay a premium price for premium food, or even a realistic price (based on the cost of getting it from zero to the shop shelf) for acceptable food. Hence, subsidisation.


 
Really? Then you wouldn't imagine there'd be a market for this stuff then. It costs about €250 a kilo from an Irish butcher.


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## Jack The Lad (22 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*

Yes, but would you eat it every day? Could you afford to? I couldn't. Pretty much everyone couldn't.

In Japan, Kobe beef is a delicacy. You bring it out for special occassions. It's beef champagne!


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## room305 (23 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



Jack The Lad said:


> Yes, but would you eat it every day? Could you afford to? I couldn't. Pretty much everyone couldn't.
> 
> In Japan, Kobe beef is a delicacy. You bring it out for special occassions. It's beef champagne!


 
I know but I was illustrating a point. Even with serious land scarcity, Japan is able to produce beef at a price the market is willing to pay. They do so by focusing on quality. Perhaps it is a point better served by pointing out that there is a ready market for €20 organic chickens.


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## ubiquitous (24 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> I know but I was illustrating a point. Even with serious land scarcity, Japan is able to produce beef at a price the market is willing to pay. They do so by focusing on quality. Perhaps it is a point better served by pointing out that there is a ready market for €20 organic chickens.



The question, as my old marketing lecturer used to say, is not "is there a gap in the market?" but "is there a market in the gap?". The Irish population is so small in relative terms that the Irish market for €20 organic chickens is tiny, and not sufficient to sustain any critical mass of suppliers outside a handful of specialists.


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## room305 (24 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



ubiquitous said:


> The Irish population is so small in relative terms that the Irish market for €20 organic chickens is tiny, and not sufficient to sustain any critical mass of suppliers outside a handful of specialists.


 
If Irish farmers are solely limiting themselves to supplying the Irish market then you may have isolated a large part of the problem. If they are making a premium product - which I believe they are when it comes to beef and diary - then they need to be thinking _global_.

Would you support a similar line of argument from Irish software developers (i.e. we're finding it tough to compete in the global market place, please give us loads of money and make it illegal for Irish companies to contact software development in India)?


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## ubiquitous (25 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> If Irish farmers are solely limiting themselves to supplying the Irish market then you may have isolated a large part of the problem. If they are making a premium product - which I believe they are when it comes to beef and diary - then they need to be thinking _global_.
> 
> Would you support a similar line of argument from Irish software developers (i.e. we're finding it tough to compete in the global market place, please give us loads of money and make it illegal for Irish companies to contact software development in India)?



This line of argument is wrongheaded and pointless. 

You previously answered your own question when you said



> I have relations who own a farm and they are not at all worried about the ending of CAP subsidies. Their attitude is that they sell a premium product, it is internationally recognised as such and people can and should be willing to pay for it as such.



Good luck to you.


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## room305 (27 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



ubiquitous said:


> This line of argument is wrongheaded and pointless.


 
Care to explain why? I am making a genuine enquiry. Why do you consider subsidies for farmers to be perfectly reasonable but unconscionable for other industries?


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## joe sod (28 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



csirl said:


> Farmers complaining that getting 85% of their income paid by the taxpayer isnt hight enough.


 
this line is always trotted out about subsidies, first of all no subsidies come from irish taxation (so no


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## joe sod (28 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



csirl said:


> Farmers complaining that getting 85% of their income paid by the taxpayer isnt hight enough.


 
this line is always trotted out about subsidies, first of all no subsidies irish farmers get comes from irish taxpayers because ireland is not a net contributor to the EU budget, by and large the subsidies are payed by german taxpayers, germany is a food importer not exporter like ireland therefore CAP is more in german interests because being a densely populated industrial country it has a secure european food supply, this was the whole reason behind the CAP and germany more than any other european country appreciates the benefit of this. Germany was devastated after WW2 and there was not enough food for people to eat. This did not happen in ireland or even  britain therefore a lot of people here do not fully appreciate the benefits of this. Before the second world war food was largely based on world market, britain more than other countries depended alot on its former colonies for cheap food, however it learned to its cost the vulnerabilities of this policy, in fact it was irish farmers that stepped up to the plate during world war 2, that increased production to supply the british market,


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## ubiquitous (29 Apr 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



room305 said:


> Care to explain why?



You previously answered your own question, as above.


> Why do you consider subsidies for farmers to be perfectly reasonable but unconscionable for other industries?


Where did I say that?


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## room305 (1 May 2008)

*Re: What is the protest march in Dublin I've just seen?*



ubiquitous said:


> You previously answered your own question, as above.


 
I am just not following you. If you are saying that the reason I am in favour of scrapping subsidies for farmers is because I think Irish farmers will do well out of it you are wrong. The industry will be decimated by their removal in much the same way the Irish sugar industry was. But that does not mean it is not worth doing.

We cannot simply prop up any industry that struggles with international competition. Otherwise we'd all still be agrarian farmers and nothing would have moved on much since the 1800s.



ubiquitous said:


> Where did I say that?


 
I thought I was paraphrasing but perhaps I misunderstood your posts. What then are your criteria for judging whether an industry should be handed our hard earned cash?


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## ubiquitous (1 May 2008)

I think you did misunderstand my posts. I don't think I have argued anywhere that farming or any industry should be automatically entitled to subsidies. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have said, however, that the removal of the existing subsidies from Irish and EU agriculture (which I believe is inevitable) will have unpleasant consequences for Irish & EU consumers in terms of food costs. I fully stand over this opinion, which I originally voiced on AAM some time ago, well before the recent spike in food commodity prices.


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## room305 (2 May 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I think you did misunderstand my posts. I don't think I have argued anywhere that farming or any industry should be automatically entitled to subsidies. Correct me if I'm wrong.


 
Okay, well please accept my apologies for misrepresenting your argument.



ubiquitous said:


> I have said, however, that the removal of the existing subsidies from Irish and EU agriculture (which I believe is inevitable) will have unpleasant consequences for Irish & EU consumers in terms of food costs. I fully stand over this opinion, which I originally voiced on AAM some time ago, well before the recent spike in food commodity prices.


 
The "recent" spike in commodity prices has been driven by US bio-ethanol subsidies.

I fail to see how the removal of subsidies for Irish farmers and the opening up of the EU food markets to global trade could lead to an _increase_ in costs for food consumers. Otherwise why is their removal so bitterly opposed by farmers?


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## diarmuidc (3 May 2008)

room305 said:


> If you allow the millions of oppressed to industrialise now then they will be in a far better position to deal with the implications of global warming in fifty years time.


You haven't read the IPCC Fourth Report (or a summary ). Delaying 50 years is not an option.
And regardless of whether you believe climate change or not you would have a hard time in denying that developing countries such as China are facing unprecedented environmental issues.



> Alternatively you can keep people in poverty, reduce carbon emissions and hope the IPCC are correct in their assertions.


You don't have to pick one or the other. You can reduce carbon emissions *and* get people out of poverty. Granted the pace might not be as fast but there are other factors that could accelerate growth in an economy (mismanagement, corruption, simple tax system etc...) if that was the goal



room305 said:


> The "recent" spike in commodity prices has been driven by US bio-ethanol subsidies.


That's only part of the reason.

Sorry for referring back to old posts but I have been away for a while


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