# working an unpaid trial for 4 days



## jamieb (13 Jun 2014)

Hi 

I recently got my son an interview with a convenience store - it was through work that I do myself that I came in contact this this gentleman.  He asked me to have my 17 year old call him when he got his school holidays.  Last week he called and met with the prospective employer on Monday.  He agreed to do 7am til 3pm from Tuesday to Friday.  He told me he would not be paid this week, I actually thought my son got his wires crossed and that the guy meant he had to do a back week. I have to say my son loves his bed but was up each morning at 6am and off to work.  The shop was rough enough and he dealt with some characters. He was on the till immediately and the owner told him as long as there was no major F ups he had a job. Today he met with him and was told he was a bit slow firstly - I can understand this as my son is quite the perfectionist and learning the cigarettes and lotto, paying bills in the shop and a whole host of things as well as stacking and facing off he was only beginning to get into his stride.  The employer said that he could get 20 people better than him and that he could come in again next week (unpaid) and that next saturday (not tomorrow) he could work 12 to 3 and he would pay him for that!!  He bought his lunch and drinks there all week so spent 10 euro a day in the shop and the employer didnt as much as offer him a sandwich. He got just 15 minutes break a day and now he wants him to do it all again.  Ive had a row with my son - he wants to do it but I am trying to get him to see that this is totally unscrupulous but he has stormed off slamming doors.  Any advice??


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## PaddyBloggit (13 Jun 2014)

Let him do it. Agree with your son if the situation remains unchanged by the end of week 2 that he'll walk away from the situation.

Your son obviously likes the job - rising out of his bed at 6.00 a.m. with no prospect of pay isn't detering him.


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## jamieb (13 Jun 2014)

Thanks Paddy but the situation is that it is costing money for him to get there - me also up at 6 am to drive him there which I dont mine if it was fruitful but I am really disgusted that the shop would not even offer him a bit of lunch. I think if this was the case I would see him as getting training and getting fed.


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## Setanta12 (13 Jun 2014)

Could be a life-lesson for your son, if it doesn't work out.  May also be embarrassing for him if it doesn't, so go easy.


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## jamieb (13 Jun 2014)

OK well he now tells me he is not going back and decided this himself - he also tells me he was told to say he was 18 if anyone asked so he could sell alcohol and cigarettes all of this week. I was not aware of this - so I am now disgusted even more!!


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## 110quests (13 Jun 2014)

Hi, it may seem to you that your son is being exploited but what about him ?  He doesn't seem to think so.  

He did his days work getting up reeeal early so he seems to like the fact that he is starting a job. Be glad for him. I know your own experience of life is telling you that he may be taken advantage of but if he has taken to slamming the door about it, it means something to him. 

Give him his head on this , encourage him to go, be as positive as possible  and think of the many mothers who would wish their sons would get themselves out of bed at six. 

I do not for a minute condone exploitation but another few days of he doing this will clarify the situation . It will show whether the employer is the real deal or not and it may be the start of a great future for your son.

If it turns out that he was taken advantage of , your son will learn so much about how life can be and he will end up the wiser for it . 

For you, not easy rising at 6 for no return ! Except the slamming of doors but I've done the early rising, delivered the son to apprenticeship, collected the son, met the exploitative employer but also met the great one . So stay with it for the next week and both you and your son will learn much, hopefully positive.


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## Setanta12 (13 Jun 2014)

Lesson learnt!  I've heard some restaurants do the same; invariably the person is too slow and fails their 'probation'.


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## jamieb (13 Jun 2014)

Thank You all for your insightful comments - I do appreciate it.


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## jamieb (13 Jun 2014)

Yes Kildavin - I checked with a HR friend of mine - she was not familiar with the retail sector but confirmed it does happen in the hospitality sector. He had originally decided to do voluntary work in one of the charity shops and at least this was no pay for rewarding work rather than no pay and lining someones pockets. So he has real feeling for the homeless after a transition year project so has decided to do some volunteering in a Simon shop or something for Focus. He frequently goes down Grafton street and knows quite a few of the big Issue sellers and will buy them a cup of tea -so at least he will learn values and do something rewarding if he does charity work.  I think he has come to the right decision myself!!


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## Guinea pig (14 Jun 2014)

> Who can sell alcohol?
> Only persons aged 18 years or over	may	sell	alcohol	otherwise	a	criminal	offence	will	be	committed.
> If	you	are	under	18	you	may	carry	out	general	duties	in	the	shop	or	may	make	non	liquor	sales	only.
> Persons	employed	in	either	a	Supermarket,	Convenience	Store	or	Petrol	Station	who	are	under	18	years	of	age,	may	not
> ...



[broken link removed]

Your son is breaking the law by selling alcohol, you may think I am over reacting, but do you think this guy is going to stand up for your son if he serves a Garda plant?


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## 110quests (14 Jun 2014)

jamieb said:


> OK well he now tells me he is not going back and decided this himself - he also tells me he was told to say he was 18 if anyone asked so he could sell alcohol and cigarettes all of this week. I was not aware of this - so I am now disgusted even more!!



I withdraw what I said in my earlier post on reading this. That's illegal.


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## jamieb (14 Jun 2014)

Yes Guinea Pig - I have explained all of this to him - he was again put in a position and taken advantage of- is it not the responsibility of the shop or is it on the person serving - I am unclear on this!!


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## PaddyBloggit (14 Jun 2014)

Asking your son to break the law tells me all I need to hear about the scruples of the shop owner.

He shouldn't dream of going back there.


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## Sue Ellen (14 Jun 2014)

jamieb said:


> is it not the responsibility of the shop or is it on the person serving - I am unclear on this!!



Copied from page 9 of the legislation referred to above and shows that both can suffer:

Penalties For The Sale Of Alcohol To Underage Persons
Temporary Closure Orders And Fines For Sale Of Alcohol
To Underage Persons
If a licence holder is convicted of selling to underage drinkers, or of another offence under the Licensing Acts, as referred
to below, the Court has no discretion and must impose a Temporary Closure Order on the premises as well as a stiff fine.
During the period of the closure order the premises is closed in its entirety and no business, even non liquor business, can
be carried out.
Penalties for the sale of alcohol to underage persons may include:
• Temporary closure orders are mandatory and the Judge has no discretion.
• For a first offence the closure will be up to a maximum of 7 days.
• For a second offence the closure will be for a minimum of 7 days up to a maximum of 30 days.
• A conviction under the Licensing Acts may lead to an endorsement on the Licence, Fines and Negative Publicity (as
a sign stating why the premises is closed has to be clearly displayed in a prominent position at the premises).
• Fines of €1,000 for a first offence and €1,500 for second or subsequent offences may be imposed.
Aiding And Abetting
Employees who sell alcohol to underage drinkers can themselves be prosecuted for “aiding and abetting”.
While the prime responsibility for such matters lies with the licence holder legal responsibility also lies with the person
involved in the transaction. *An Garda Síochána are now prosecuting employees who have been involved in underage sales
on a regular basis as well as the licence holders themselves.
*
=============================================

This relevant AAM thread makes for interesting reading also.


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## jamieb (14 Jun 2014)

Thank you all for your information and advice - he is not going back there and realises now the gravity of the situation he found himself in.  I think a lesson learnt is the best we can take from it.


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## Time (14 Jun 2014)

It is a handy way of getting free labour.


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## ang1170 (14 Jun 2014)

PaddyBloggit said:


> Asking your son to break the law tells me all I need to hear about the scruples of the shop owner.
> 
> He shouldn't dream of going back there.


 
 +1

 He's well out of it - hopefully a life lesson learnt by the whole experience.


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## Leper (14 Jun 2014)

Reading through this forum it is not easy to see that many look at the employment situation through rose tinted glasses.  Worse again some believe in that rubbish that Bill 'Work-for-Nothing' Cullen comes up with.  Furthermore, many believe that everything is above board in all our retail outlets.

I could bring you into popular pubs where the staff is not paid after official closing time.  Time spent working in the pub serving after hours and cleaning up is at nil pay.  Remember this is the early hours of the morning and usually at weekends.  Try to prosecute these employers and you are wasting your time.  Many of the employees are paid at less than the minimum wage and probably cash-in-hand without any social welfare stamp either.

The hospitality industry is full of this stuff and not short of owners/managers coming up with bright ideas to get people to work for no pay.


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## twofor1 (15 Jun 2014)

Leper said:


> The hospitality industry is full of this stuff and not short of owners/managers coming up with bright ideas to get people to work for no pay.



Very true,

A student niece of mine recently got a trial in a well known Dublin pub/eatery as a waitress, worked 8 hours on a Saturday night with another girl also on trial, both unpaid. Neither of them was deemed suitable.

They have since learned of several others who were unsuccessful in recent times, apparently the pub is well known for giving trials, but nobody ever gets the job as there is a constant stream of free hopefuls.

I am also aware of this happening in a well-known hotel chain.

Neither ever get my custom anymore.


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## jamieb (15 Jun 2014)

Yes twofor1 - I actually heard yesterday about a well known pub/eatery who is renowned for this with young students - Im sure it is the same one.  Maybe it goes on a lot but is not highlighted !


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## delgirl (16 Jun 2014)

+1  

There's a very well-known, busy Dublin pub which advertises jobs around the colleges in the area.  I know of a few students who were asked to work from 8pm to 3am cleaning, clearing tables, washing glasses etc. and were on unpaid trials for 3 or 4 days, only to be told they weren't good enough, which I don't believe as they worked very hard with no breaks.

The next victims were lining up for the trials and the pub gets constant free labour as the students are desperate for a job.


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## AgathaC (16 Jun 2014)

I remember reading about this shoddy practice, some years ago, possibly here on AAM. I seem to remember a young guy being told to buy certain clothes, e.g. black trousers/ white shirt, as a uniform, and then let go, without pay, after working long hours.
It was also brought up, at that time, on some radio programme. It's a shame that some businesses are still getting away with this.


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## Purple (16 Jun 2014)

I don't understand how it's legal for employers to do this. If people are working on a trail basis that's fair enough but they should be paid the minimum wage for their age (at a minimum) for doing so.
I've never heard of it in my sector but when we hire people the cost of training them is higher than their wages anyway.


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2014)

Purple said:


> I don't understand how it's legal for employers to do this. If people are working on a trail basis that's fair enough but they should be paid the minimum wage for their age (at a minimum) for doing so.
> I've never heard of it in my sector but when we hire people the cost of training them is higher than their wages anyway.



I agree but how we do reconcile that with something like job bridge where people I know have worked over 40 hours a week for €230 social welfare payment. That's not even the minimum wage for trainees but when the Government do it, we call it training. When employers do it, we call it exploitation. I know there is a difference between nothing and the social welfare payment but why not pay everyone the minimum wage?


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## Purple (16 Jun 2014)

Sunny said:


> I agree but how we do reconcile that with something like job bridge where people I know have worked over 40 hours a week for €230 social welfare payment. That's not even the minimum wage for trainees but when the Government do it, we call it training. When employers do it, we call it exploitation. I know there is a difference between nothing and the social welfare payment but why not pay everyone the minimum wage?



Job Bridge is good in theory but there should be serious penalties for employers who abuse it. If it's just used for cheap labour then it's bad. If it's used as intended then it's good. To be fair to those involved and those who run it the percentage of people who end up being employed from it are high and the feedback from most people who participate seems to be positive. The horror stories not withstanding.


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