# Scumbags!!



## liteweight (13 Sep 2006)

I went into town today and was standing outside Arnotts sheltering from the rain. An old lady with a walking stick was beside me. Three young lads walked by, one was holding a large paper cup. He was literally a foot away from a bin when he dropped the cup  to the ground. The old lady shouted 'I think you dropped something'!! The lad turned and punched her in the side of the head!!

I was absolutely horrified and tried to grab hold of him but the old lady had collapsed against me and I had to hold her up. The reaction of the people stunned me. They seemed to turn, almost in unison, to look into the shop window. Nobody helped in fact they studiously ignored the situation.

She refused to call the gardai and I wanted to call an ambulance but she refused this too. I have never been so mortified, embarassed by, and for the citizens of my own city. I'm ashamed to say I'm a Dubliner today!


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## mobileme (13 Sep 2006)

That is horrendous. But I have to say that I'm not really surprised to hear it. I don't feel safe on the streets of the city centre any more.


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## Deirdra (13 Sep 2006)

You were brave enough to stand up to them. There's a lot of that nastiness about, more's the pity.


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## liteweight (13 Sep 2006)

If I could have gotten hold of the little 5hit....I'd have killed him or at least died trying.........I was that annoyed and I still haven't gotten over it.


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## ClubMan (13 Sep 2006)

mobileme said:


> I don't feel safe on the streets of the city centre any more.


For what it's worth I have lived almost 40 years in _Dublin _and have wandered the streets a lot and have never encountered any trouble in all that time. The incident above is obviously shocking and intolerable but to generalise from isolated incidents like that to some overarching theory that the streets are generally unsafe seems like a gross overreaction to me.


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## Guest127 (13 Sep 2006)

thought there was cctv in central dublin. why dont you contact the gendarme and see if they captured it


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## franmac (13 Sep 2006)

Was in Abbey Street today and overheard three young men talking as they walked past me. "I would have slit his throat like I did with that last fellow that I left for dead" said one. I thought these lads are speaking like this to shock anyone who overhears but when I watched they were completely oblivious to their surroundings and the people nearby.


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## daltonr (13 Sep 2006)

> For what it's worth I have lived almost 40 years in _Dublin _and have 
> wandered the streets a lot and have never encountered any trouble in 
> all that time.

Has it occured to you that this may be because these thugs are less likely to attack a young male who looks like he can defend himself.  Preferring as in the case above to attack an elderly lady.

To generalise from your own isolated experience that the streets are generally safe seems like a gross underreaction to me.  Would it not be better to look at Dublin's Crime statistics? or to compare them with other cities?

According to the Garda Report for 2005 there were 259 Assaults Reported in Dublin the city centre Per 1000 population.  i.e More than one report for every 4 people.  Of these the number detected was 140 per 1000 population.  Let's presume all the other reports were hoaxes, people have nothing better to do.

For Sexual Assaults it was 84.5/1000 Reported and 32.5/1000 Detected.

For Robbery it was 324.5/1000 Detected (almost 1 in 3) and 125.5 detected.

Your 40 years of apparent safety notwitstanding those aren't encouraging figures for the Capital City of a wealthy nation.

Or perhaps they are.  Perhaps these figures do reflect safe streets.  For comparison, Dallas TX, has roughly the same population as Dublin

It's figures based on the 2004 statistics for crimes REPORTED are
Assault 6.4/1000
Rape is 6.07/1000
Robbery is 0.479/1000

Perhaps Dallas isn't a good match.  Perhaps the Dubs fancy themselves 
as more like New Yorkers.  The comparison there is even less flattering.

Assault 3.61/1000
Rape is 0.176/1000
Robbery is 3/1000

The comparison might not be like for like. US Crime Statistics are unlikely to use the same models as the Gardai.  Distinctions like Reported and Detected would make Dublins figures compare even less favourtably.  Definititions of Crimes might be different (Sexual Assault vs Rape).

But the figures are so vastly different it's hard to argue that Dublin is a Safe City by any objective measure.

If you prefer we can ignore these figures and go back to each person providing their own testimonial of life in Dublin.

I'll see your 40 years of safety and raise you 

 * One smashed windscreen.
 * One smashed drivers window
 * One Keyed drivers door
 (all separate incidents)

Or we can go to crimes that I have first hand knowledge of
 * One broken nose in broad daylight on Georges St.
 * One Baseball bat to the back of the head at 5pm.
 * One car jacking.
(all separate incidents with different victims)


liteweight:
Report the crime you witnessed.  Don't be naive and think that it'll get you anywhere, but at least it'll be one more tick in the crimes reported column.
When crime figures start dropping because of apathy those drops will be seized upon by ministers as evidence of progress.


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## ClubMan (13 Sep 2006)

daltonr said:


> Has it occured to you that ...


OK - I'm outta here...


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## Glenbhoy (13 Sep 2006)

I've been wandering around O'Connell st direction for 7 of the the past 10yrs and I've never encountered any bother whatsoever.  My normal walk home takes me up Liffey St, along Henry St and up Moore st (or sometimes through the ILAC), I've also lived on Abbey St in that period too.  
So whilst I've possibly been lucky thusfar I don't think Dublin is too bad at all, not that the Indo or FG would allow people to get comfortable on the streets. Compare that to my experiences in Belfast, burgled multiple times, assaulted on the streets most years too - thats not even talking about my first couple of years in college which were pre-ceasefire.
In saying that, what the OP witnessed is shocking, there really are some sick people out there.


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## liteweight (14 Sep 2006)

cuchulainn said:


> thought there was cctv in central dublin. why dont you contact the gendarme and see if they captured it



I don't think they'd do this for me to be honest. After all, it didn't happen to me, I witnessed it.

I will report the incident though Dalton, it never occurred to me to view it from your perspective.

Clubman, I think you've been very lucky to date. Last Sunday my daughter was in O'Connell St. and witnessed a woman attacked by two other women. An ambulance had to be called! When she came home telling me the city had become a kip, I disagreed and told her it was an  isolated incident. Both daughters sat me down and informed me that they witness things constantly, particularly at night. I was amazed to find that the general concensus is to keep your head down and walk on!! I was of the same opinion as you but they gave me examples.

Today, I saw it first hand and I have to say, I'm worried about that woman tonight.


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## tententwenty (14 Sep 2006)

liteweight said:


> I don't think they'd do this for me to be honest. After all, it didn't happen to me, I witnessed it.
> 
> I will report the incident though Dalton, it never occurred to me to view it from your perspective.
> 
> ...


Its getting pretty hair raising to walk down the middle of Galway after midnight these days as well. I was escorting a friend of mine across town,  after a nightclub, and it looked like there was a brawl on every street corner. Now I know things weren't entirely relaxed ten years ago, but theres an element of random thuggery creeping in that was never there before and which I don't like one bit. You've as much chance of being hassled if you have your head down minding your own business as if you're roaring drunk and swaggering like a sailor.


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## liteweight (14 Sep 2006)

tententwenty said:


> Its getting pretty hair raising to walk down the middle of Galway after midnight these days as well. I was escorting a friend of mine across town,  after a nightclub, and it looked like there was a brawl on every street corner. Now I know things weren't entirely relaxed ten years ago, but theres an element of random thuggery creeping in that was never there before and which I don't like one bit. You've as much chance of being hassled if you have your head down minding your own business as if you're roaring drunk and swaggering like a sailor.



I realise it's happening everywhere. Look at those 2 unfortunate children, critical in hospital when their mother's car was set alight. You're right, there is an element of random thuggery!! I think that's what's most worrying. The lady in town today was in her late 70's and carried a walking stick. It seems that no one and nothing is sacred any more. 

Another worrying aspect is that although the lad acted independently, his friends weren't shocked, in fact, they giggled ( the little b@st@rds)!! Apparently there is no check on behaviour from their peers anymore. Did none of them have a Granny??


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## ClubMan (14 Sep 2006)

Please note the posting guidelines on (even self censored) expletives. Thanks.


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## Grizzly (14 Sep 2006)

Absolutely shocking. I have three sons in their twenties. Two are back living at home. I can honestly say that I really only get to sleep when I hear the key turning in the door at weekends. *Liteweight* you were probably lucky that you didn't get stabbed. These thugs have no fear/conscience at all. They are one step above animal behaviour. Forget the old lady for a second. These thugs don't even know what a litter bin is for despite all the adverts to keep "Dublin tidy" etc
A suggestion on the Pat Kenny show yesterday from a listener was that like the penalty points in driving, these underage thugs should build up penalty points in jail sentences and when they reach the age of 18 they serve the lot of accumulated "jail points".
Lets hope that the judges jail the 30 or so drug dealers arrested over the past couple of days for a long long time and not let them off with "one more chance".


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## tententwenty (14 Sep 2006)

Grizzly said:


> like the penalty points in driving, these underage thugs should build up penalty points in jail sentences and when they reach the age of 18 they serve the lot of accumulated "jail points".


See thats the problem with society today. Bring back the grand arena thats what I say, let them duke it out in a struggle for life and death with arbitrary rules and weapons spectacular only for their randomness, for the pleasure of the audience, and Irish politicians expressly forbidden togas. Expressly. In liteweights case, for example, paper cup wielding tinkers could be made to do battle with siberian tigers. Everybody wins, IMHO.

Funny thing is I am only half joking.


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## Protocol (14 Sep 2006)

Every time I walk along Henry street/Mary street/Moore street I always feel a small bit scared/fear/intimidated by the number of young "skangers", or whatever you like to call them.

Generally wearing tracksuits, and often baseball caps, with short hair, these people (male and female) seem to me to have aggressive tendencies, easily tgriggered if you even look at them.

Dublin seems to have a higher than average proportion of these people.


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## Humpback (14 Sep 2006)

franmac said:


> "I would have slit his throat like I did with that last fellow that I left for dead" said one.


 
He was actually talking about what he would have done to the bloke who got in his way after he gave a puck to an old lady who had the cheek to mouth off at him for dropping litter.

Makes you wonder about the sense of tackling these kinds of scumbags


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## liteweight (14 Sep 2006)

> Absolutely shocking. I have three sons in their twenties. Two are back living at home. I can honestly say that I really only get to sleep when I hear the key turning in the door




I can really empathise with this! It's funny how the tables turn, mine ring ME now if I'm late........I've even been told that I should have had the decency to call!! 

Seriously though, I won't forget the look on my daughter's face when I told her I tried to grab the guy. These three lads didn't look like scangers and didn't speak like scangers. It's really worrying in a society when you have absolutely no idea what the 'bad guys' look like anymore.


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## RonanC (14 Sep 2006)

one quick question, why was this not reported straight away?? Henry Street is covered by CCTV that is linked up to the Garda station on O'Connell street. These guys would have been picked up in minutes !!!

I was on Henry street yesterday too and there were Gardai everywhere, especially outside Jervis shopping centre.. there always around the area and could have been at the scene in a minute or less.. Did shop security not come to help either?? 

anyway.... Dublin has always been like this though and I for one dont feel safe walking through Henry street, Parnell Street, O'Connell street late at nite (8pm-) and im a young well built man (6'2"). These scum however dont care who you are. Gone are the days where you'd get mugged for your runners or jacket.. Now they just seem to punch you or smack you over the head with a bottle for just looking at them. 

I was in NewYork and Paris recently and I felt so much safer in these cities compared to Dublin. I felt like there was a poilce officer on every corner in New York. We need a bigger presence on our streets at all times of the day.. Gardai seem to have just blended into the crowd with their new uniforms too.. In NewYork they stand out a mile !!!


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## Marie M (14 Sep 2006)

liteweight said:


> I have never been so mortified, embarassed by, and for the citizens of my own city. I'm ashamed to say I'm a Dubliner today!




I wouldn't take it personally.


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## ClubMan (14 Sep 2006)

"Scumbags".
"These scum".

Is _AAM _turning into _The Herald/Sun/Star/Sunday World _or something?


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## RonanC (14 Sep 2006)

ClubMan said:


> "Scumbags".
> "These scum".
> 
> Is _AAM _turning into _The Herald/Sun/Star/Sunday World _or something?


 

what would you rather they be called????


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## ney001 (14 Sep 2006)

ClubMan said:


> "Scumbags".
> "These scum".
> 
> Is _AAM _turning into _The Herald/Sun/Star/Sunday World _or something?




Don't care what the times calls them - Scumbag seems to fit quite well

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scumbag


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## ney001 (14 Sep 2006)

Marie M said:


> I wouldn't take it personally.




Do you not think that liteweight has a right to be annoyed and disgusted by the antics of these scumbags.  Liteweight like me is from Dublin and I would take it very personally if someone attacked an elderly lady in front of me.  Just because it didn't happen to you personally doesn't mean that you shouldn't worry about it - that elderly lady was someone's granny, mother, wife and in the absence of someone from her own family I think liteweight did the right thing in getting upset!


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## liteweight (14 Sep 2006)

RonanC said:


> one quick question, why was this not reported straight away?? Henry Street is covered by CCTV that is linked up to the Garda station on O'Connell street. These guys would have been picked up in minutes !!!
> 
> I was on Henry street yesterday too and there were Gardai everywhere, especially outside Jervis shopping centre.. there always around the area and could have been at the scene in a minute or less.. Did shop security not come to help either??


 
 The woman didn't want a fuss and I was holding her up. No shop security came to help but it was on the street, not in the shop so they might not even have seen it! 

Are you sure the CCTV is monitored by the Gardai all the time? If so, one at least should have arrived. To give the benefit of the doubt, the incident may have looked like an old lady fainting. There was no big brawl and it was over in seconds. By the time a Garda ran from Jervis Centre to Arnotts, they'd be long gone anyway. I wouldn't be able to give a description, except in general terms. They had hoods up as it was lashing rain at the time, which might account for the fact that I didn't see one Garda on Henry St.!


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## Marie M (14 Sep 2006)

ney001 said:


> Do you not think that liteweight has a right to be annoyed and disgusted by the antics of these scumbags. Liteweight like me is from Dublin and I would take it very personally if someone attacked an elderly lady in front of me. Just because it didn't happen to you personally doesn't mean that you shouldn't worry about it - that elderly lady was someone's granny, mother, wife and in the absence of someone from her own family I think liteweight did the right thing in getting upset!



What I meant was that other peoples actions would not make me myself ashamed of who I am, or where I am from.


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## liteweight (14 Sep 2006)

Marie M said:


> I wouldn't take it personally.



Maybe we should be taking it personally and then less of it might happen. Just wait until the next batch of politicians call to my door. I'm not naive enough to think they won't be sympathetic to the 'crime' situation in order to get my vote. Maybe if enough of us complained bitterly when they land on our doorsteps, we wouldn't have the situation we're in now.


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## Marie M (14 Sep 2006)

I think I have been taken up wrong here.  I am not making light of the situation, the yob culture that is going on in UK will probably be mirrored here, yes something should be done about it, but it would not make me doubt myself, my morals and where I come from, you may aswell throw the towel into these people.  This was a terrible incident, but is not indicitive of Dublin people in general.


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## ney001 (14 Sep 2006)

Marie M said:


> What I meant was that other peoples actions would not make me myself ashamed of who I am, or where I am from.



It wouldn't make me ashamed of who I am but it certainly would make me ashamed of my capital city - that an old lady could be attacked on the street in broad daylight and nothing could be done


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## gramlab (14 Sep 2006)

_Money. manpower and some comitted politicians_

Needed - but wishful thinking!

Never really looked into the zero tolerance thing that seemed to work in New York(or did it?). Wonder if it was brought in here would it have any/the same effect


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## liteweight (14 Sep 2006)

Marie M

The people actually turned away!!! That is a terrible indictment IMO. What if he didn't run off but decided to kick her while she was down? It doesn't bear thinking about as it brings up memories of a young man kicked to death at a taxi rank....he was on the queue for Godsake...and countless other incidents.

I wish I could remember the quote but it's something like...'they came for the Jews and I did nothing, then they came for.....finally they came for me and there was no one left to do something. Garbled I know but does anyone remember the quote?


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## Decani (14 Sep 2006)

On the walls of one of the death camps in Nazi Germany 


> First they came for the Jews, and I did nothing because I wasn't a Jew.
> Then they came for the Gypsies, and I did nothing, because I wasn't a Gypsy.
> Then they came for the Catholics and I did nothing, because I was Protestant.
> Then they came for me, and there was no one left to help me.


 
or something like that


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## liteweight (14 Sep 2006)

Decani said:


> On the walls of one of the death camps in Nazi Germany
> 
> 
> or something like that



Thanks Decani, don't think it's quite it but it is the gist. Would have driven me nuts trying to remember it!


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## Grizzly (14 Sep 2006)

_First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--_
And there was no one left to speak out for me.


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## CharlieC (14 Sep 2006)

Have a read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect


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## liteweight (14 Sep 2006)

Hmmmm...interesting.


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## delgirl (14 Sep 2006)

CharlieC said:


> Have a read
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect


It happens all the time in London. I lived there for 3 years and travelled on the trains and tube to work and home again.

There were many incidents of 'burying heads in newspapers' if there was some kind of confrontation between other passengers.

I even saw a man move away down the train from a young girl who was being harassed by two yobs she obviously didn't know. I also moved down the train, but in search of staff who could help her as I felt I couldn't.

The staff don't really want to know either and are frightened for their own safety.

What happened to this lady was shocking and shouldn't be tolerated. Unfortunately, it appears they got away with it, which will arm them with confidence to repeat the same behaviour.

Until the laws in this country are changed in favour of the victims instead of the criminals, incidents such as this will continue to go unstopped and unpunished.


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## jake108 (15 Sep 2006)

ClubMan said:


> For what it's worth I have lived almost 40 years in _Dublin _and have wandered the streets a lot and have never encountered any trouble in all that time. The incident above is obviously shocking and intolerable but to generalise from isolated incidents like that to some overarching theory that the streets are generally unsafe seems like a gross overreaction to me.


 
Just because you don't personally witness these things doesn't mean they're not happening! Stop burying your head in the sand. Pick up the paper on any day of the week and you can read it. People being killed on the streets for mobile phones, a few quid or for no reason at all. I've been to many major cities around the world and Dublin has more scumbags than any of them! And before anyone attacks me for saying that, I'm from Dublin but no longer live there.


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## Chamar (15 Sep 2006)

Actually in general terms Dublin today is BETTER than 10 years ago. However, relative to other 1st world cities the level of aggression on Dublin's streets and behaviour of many of its inhabitants is appalling. (patiently waiting in line in a spar while some complete "scumbag" walks in to the top of the queue and shouts "20 johnny blues" comes to mind. - honestly, where else do you get that???)


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## Glenbhoy (16 Sep 2006)

Chamar said:


> Actually in general terms Dublin today is BETTER than 10 years ago. However, relative to other 1st world cities the level of aggression on Dublin's streets and behaviour of many of its inhabitants is appalling. (patiently waiting in line in a spar while some complete "scumbag" walks in to the top of the queue and shouts "20 johnny blues" comes to mind. - honestly, where else do you get that???)


Italians don't believe in queues at all, they just barge in no matter who appears first in line.


> People being killed on the streets for mobile phones, a few quid or for no reason at all.


A common occurrence?
http://www.csdp.org/research/hosb1203.pdf#search="eu murder rates"


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## jake108 (18 Sep 2006)

Glenbhoy, get your facts straight before you start quoting me! I did not use the phrase "common occurence. I simply said to the other poster it's no good pretending these horrible incidents don't happen. There is violent acts being commited every single day on Dublin streets. And yes there have been several horrifc murders that have occured over mobile phones and petty sums of cash etc.


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## Glenbhoy (19 Sep 2006)

jake108 said:


> I did not use the phrase "common occurence


Fair enough, but looking at the quote below it's easy to understand why I presumed you were inferring such events were common occurrences.



jake108 said:


> Pick up the paper on any day of the week and you can read it. People being killed on the streets for mobile phones, a few quid or for no reason at all.


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## gearoidmm (19 Sep 2006)

daltonr said:


> I'll see your 40 years of safety and raise you
> 
> * One smashed windscreen.
> * One smashed drivers window
> ...



2 Broken car windows
Robbed once at syringe-point
Attacked by a homeless guy in while with my gf - garda nearby did nothing because he was buying a sandwich

Worked in a busy a/e unit where we got at least one young guy every night who got drunk, got separated from his mates and got hopped in central dublin - it seems like it was almost a sport.  That said, it's not peculiar to Dublin - used to see the same outside Henry's in Cork the whole time (before they tore it down)


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## jake108 (19 Sep 2006)

Glenbhoy said:


> Fair enough, but looking at the quote below it's easy to understand why I presumed you were inferring such events were common occurrences.


 

It's called using an example of the violent incidents happening on city streets. Obviously you never pick up a newspaper.


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## Glenbhoy (19 Sep 2006)

jake108 said:


> It's called using an example of the violent incidents happening on city streets. Obviously you never pick up a newspaper.


Perhaps you only read the headlines


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