# Ulster Bank Made Mistake with TRS.  Increasing repayments on our tracker



## unstacked

Hi
Just off the phone with UB. They sent us a notification re; the recent ECB cut, it read your new monthly payment has increased.

Curious I got on the phone straight away and asked why?  Long story short - turns out UB were applying the wrong TRS credit to our monthly payment ( they were deducting too much ) and now we have our tracker mortgage increased as a result by €130 pm to pay back their oversight.

I am phoning them again this eve to dicsuss further.  I thought they couldnt touch the tracker ?  

Do we have any options here?

I really dont trust UB now at all - mistakes seem to be happening all over the place..

Im furious though as our tracker being so low was really helping us cope financially

Can someone help or advise please?

Thanks


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## 44brendan

Based on your post it appears that your monthly mortgae payment is now being increased by UB as a result of an error made by them! This has nothing to do with the tracker rate applying to the mortgage.
However as this is a bank error, they should offer you some alternatives to a simple increase in your payments. You will need to formally contact them to complain that the error occurred and to advise them that you are not in a position to repay an increased amount. While your complaint is being addressed you can stop the DD and pay the mortgage directly, if you wish. Advise them that you are doing this. An error of this nature should not effect your credit rating nor should you be obliged to simply increase the loan repayments. You may be entitled to some interest refund as a result of overcharge due to the error but unfortunately you will have to ultimately meet the TRS adjustment. However, UB should offer you an increase in term in order to keep your mortgage payments at a level that does not account for their mistake!


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## unstacked

Thank you very much Brendan
Sound advice as always
Will talk with them this evening and outline the points you have made
We did check and confirm with Revenue the figure for the TRS and it is correct
Still I would like to see a full outline of the mistake made


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## 44brendan

That's their responsibility unstacked! I am amazed that they did not send you specific details of the error, how it occurred and how they intend to rectify it and compensate you for any loss (additional interest charged!). This is the least that a client should expect from any reputable organisation and absolutely their responsibility. 
There appears to be an attitude taken by some banks (and UB a consistent transgressor) that they have no responsibility for any mistakes made. It is up to the clients to ensure that issues such as this are fully investigated and an appropriate response and apology issued!!!


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## elcato

This is strange. I was getting too much TRS a few years ago as it turned out but I was notified by revenues trs office directly and asked to repay the amount due to them in one lump sum. How long were you overpaid the trs ? Did they indicate what the total owed from trs is ? How long is this overpayment to be for ? Seeing as you stated that the TRS according to revenue is incorrect then it appears to be some concocted story to make up for some mistake UB have made.


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## unstacked

*UB with another explanation*

Phoned UB Mortgage Operations last week and they said they would look into it properly and reply to us.  Received letter from UB today that says " Please note I have checked this payment and it is correct at €1243.47. Please note that in December the arrears amunt was capitalised and added to the balance.  In this case, your repayment must increase in order to have the entire balance repaid within the term outstanding" etc etc

I distinctly remember speaking with UB about the re- capitalisation and asking them would it affect the Tracker and they said no it wouldnt.  

Are they allowed to change the tracker terms?

We have been doing really well since re- capitalisation - no arrears and the mortgage coming down with the ECB was a huge help...

This has stumped me totally..not to mind the cock and bull story at the start of the thread about mis - applied TRS - why cant UB get it right...?


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## wbbs

But has it affected the tracker?  Is not the increased payment due to a larger amount having to be repaid over the same remaining term.


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## unstacked

I thought the amount you pay on a tracker could not be increased by the bank?
Also...they did say in Dec that the mortgage would not be affected by the capitalised arrangement


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## wbbs

The margin of interest above ECB cannot be changed but that doesn't mean the payments can't change if something changes them like TRS or in your case capitalisation of arrears.  

If the European Central Bank rate increased then your tracker rate would increase too and your repayments would also increase so there is no rule says bank can't increase the repayments on a tracker.


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## rameire

I dont know what a tracker mortgage is, comes to mind.

lets say in december you have a mortgage of 100,000
and an arrears balance on top of this for the sum of 30,000.
before december your mortgage repayments were based on a balance of 100,000
after december your mortgage repayments were based on a balance of 130,000.

due to you capitalising the arrears.

your mortgage tracker has not been affected by this capitalisation


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## Gerry Canning

Unstacked; 

Suggest stop phoning Ulster. Put and receive everything in writing.Looks like  Ulster mistake. The problem is you are liable for the TRs shortfall.
As suggested ,contact Ulster (in writing) and depending on what you can afford.
1. Increase your monthly payments by XX?
2. Increase ongoing monthly payments to sort ongoing TRS difference.
3. Ask them to put (arrears due )onto end of term.

Capitalizing the (arrears) if you are on a tight budget and now caught by their issue seems unfair .


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## 44brendan

In a situation like this phone calls are not sufficient. You need to write to the Bank as per Gerry's comment and establish why this error occurred. It must have been an error made by the Bank and in such circumstances the Bank are obliged to offer you a solution that fits into your ability to pay. i.e. You are obliged to payback the amount overclaimed, but you should be offered the opportunity to do this over an acceptable timeframe. This has nothing to do with the tracker rate!!!


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## elcato

Some questions you need to ask UB (unless you know the answers) How much is the arrears ? Is this increased payment for the duration of the mortgage or is it just until the arrears are paid off ? How long are they saying you were underpaying by ?


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## unstacked

The thing is - Ive been given two explanations now from UB as to why the monthly amt has increased:


TRS error
Capitalisation of the arrears
I want to know which one it is? or are both linked?
Capitalisation happened in Dec 13.  Why did they say in Dec the tracker wouldnt be affected and why didnt the Jan 14 amount increase to account for the capitalisation ? ( why wait 6 mths?)

I dont thrust them at all.


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## peteb

The tracker isnt affected.  take that out of your head. they havent altered your underlying interest amount + margin which is what the tracker is.


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## unstacked

I do understand 'what a tracker mortgage is'  and I get that the tracker product is not affected in itself...

But why didnt the Jan 14 amount increase to account for the capitalisation ?


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## STEINER

unstacked said:


> But why didnt the Jan 14 amount increase to account for the capitalisation ?





It may be just that Jan is very busy, coming after the Christmas break, and they are closing off 2013 accounts etc before they examine everyone's TRS etc for the 2014 tax year.


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## elcato

> The thing is - Ive been given two explanations now from UB as to why the monthly amt has increased:
> 
> 
> TRS error
> Capitalisation of the arrears


What arrears ? Do you have arrears on the mortgage aside from any TRS descrepancies ? Did you miss payments at some stage in the past ? or were you always underpaying the mortgage from the start ? There is no mention of arrears in any of your posts except that the trs payment was wrong which as far as I have stated then you owe money to revenue not UB.


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## 44brendan

If arrears were capitalised, that will increase the amount to be repaid over the remaining term of the mortgage and will lead to an increased monthly repayment. The fact that this increase was not imposed for a month or 2 may just be due to an internal error. In practise arrears capitalisation is in itself a change in the mortgage terms and conditions and the Bank should have issued you with a Variation Agreement which you would have signed. If they didn't do this they had no authority to amend the loan without your agreement!!!


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## 44brendan

As per Elcato's post there appeqars to be more to this than a TRS adjustment!!


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## Gerry Canning

44brendan said:


> As per Elcato's post there appeqars to be more to this than a TRS adjustment!!


 .................
Unstacked ,

1. I presume you were not in arrears.

Write (keep copy) and ask for full breakdown of TRS computations.
You will then be able to decipher how the figures were arrived at.
Ask/Tell Ulster to please leave your payments as is, until  you have clarity over their administration error, and request them to please ensure your credit rating ICB, is kept clean. 

I would think that at worse they should stretch your term, if new payments are too severe.
Ulster seem to be in a mess.


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## unstacked

Elcato & 44Brendan,

Last week - UB said it was an TRS error
This week - UB said it was as a result of the capitalisation

And no they did not issue a Variation Agreement


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## unstacked

44Brendan and Elcato
Last week the explanation was a 'TRS error' and this week 'it is because of re - capitalisation'
( we did capitalise our arrears in Dec 13)

And no - they did not issue a Variation Agreement


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## elcato

OK - So you started in Dec 2013 on a re-capitisation regime. You didn't mention that in the original post. So they miscalculated the first 6 months and now it appears the true cost is an extra 120 per month. Are you saying you would not have agreed to this in Dec 13 if you were told that it was that much each month ? If you cannot afford that then you would need to ask the bank to stretch the mortgage term a bit longer. Bear in mind though that this will cost more on interest in the long term.

Actually, my apologies unstacked. I have only seen your later post now i.e. 





> Phoned UB Mortgage Operations last week and they said they would look  into it properly and reply to us.  Received letter from UB today that  says " Please note I have checked this payment and it is correct at  €1243.47. *Please note that in December the arrears amunt was capitalised  and added to the balance*.  In this case, your repayment must increase  in order to have the entire balance repaid within the term outstanding"  etc etc


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## rameire

did you get a letter with the following.
amounts may differ

The letter states that an error was identified with the application of the TRS on the mortgage
and impacts me two ways


Impact 1- TRS paid by the bank in march was €300 more than the usual entitlement of €10 resulting in the mortgage been underpaid. To correct this they wish to add €48 a month till Dec.

Impact 2- they Also regret that since I was provided with too much TRS I have exceeded my yearly TRS entitlement and I now have to repay them a further €240.00 either directly in full or it can be added over the life of the mortgage.


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## rameire

as for capitalisation the following still will apply

lets say in december you have a mortgage of 100,000
and an arrears balance on top of this for the sum of 30,000.
before december your mortgage repayments were based on a balance of 100,000
after december your mortgage repayments were based on a balance of 130,000


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## unstacked

No not similar at all Rameire.
Just a short letter stating the increase to have the mortgage paid within the term outstanding of 31 years and 3 mths.

Funny though how during the course of this thread my memory is getting better.  Really need to start writing things down and sending letters instead of phone conversations with banks.

Anyway, when speaking with UB in Dec 13 re- the re-capitalisation.  I remember they gave us two choices either to have the arrears amount added on to the end of the mortgage and the term extended to keep the payments low OR leave the term as it is and pay more each month.

I have just found our annual mortgage statement as at 16th Dec 13 which states that the term remaining was 28yrs and 1month

We agreed ( on the phone ) to keep our payments low and extend the mortgage

But in their letter of the 27th June 14 it says that the monthly amount is to increase in order to have the entire balance repaid within the term outstanding which is 31years and 3 months

Surely this is a contradiction - they cant go to get the money off us twice


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## elcato

The only thing I can think of is that they did a combination of both due to the fact that you or your partner may be 70 (or 65) in 31 years and that will be the max term they allow. Either way you need to send a letter stating exactly what happened in the re-capitalisation process. You must have some written confirmation of the new arrangement ? If when you get this then use the mortgage calculator to see what you should be paying.


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## 44brendan

This makes no sense from a loan contract perspective. From your post Unstacked it would seem that an arrears position arose some time ago. In Dec 13 you were given choices by UB which involved the capitlisation of those arrears. You agreed by telephone to the capitalisation of the arrears and an extension of the mortgage term. 
It would appear that no changes were implemented by UB up to June 14. You then received correspondence stating that the monthly payment would increase in order to clear the mortgage within the original timeframe. i.e. 6 months passed where nothing changed on the mortgage payment. You have no offer in writing to extend the term of the mortgage. 
There is no suggestion in any of this that the Bank are proposing to "get money off you twice". There is no suggestion in the letter of 27th June from UB of any error in the TRS charge. Your argue ment appears to be that the Bank are not now giving you the option of extending the mortgage term. Is this the main issue? If so, have you reverted to the Bank to refer to your previous telephone discussion with them and ask why you have not now been given this choice?


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## unstacked

44brendan - *"Your argue ment appears to be that the Bank are not now giving you the option of extending the mortgage term"*

Yes this is it.  In Dec 13, we agreed to extend the term and the payments would stay affordable.  This is what we thought we had signed up to.
We did sign an agreement for this.  

So them coming now to ask for extra € per month is not right in my head as we had already agreed how to deal with the capitalisation of the arrears in Dec...

I phoned again this morning ( I know everyone on AAB says to put it in writing) but my impatience is getting to me....

Mortgage Operations now say that The Arrears Collection Unit have made an error and the increased payment per month is now going to handle this.

I need to get this properly investigated on paper and sent to us dont I?
Its a mess.  
Our next payment is due on the 10th July for the increased amount.

I will look back over all these posts, draft a letter to both UB Mortgage Operations and UB Arrears Support Unit, include the advice and notes received on here and send off...and see what comes of it...

Its frustrating


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## elcato

So it appears that you are not the only one - see here
On the plus side though, this suggests that the underpayment is being clawed back in this year only os your payments will revert back to the original amount i.e. Jan to Jun come next January.


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## unstacked

*Still waiting !*

Ulsterbank are still looking into this mess.

The arrears support unit back in December applied the extension to the mortgage correctly as we instructed them to.

So - UB have raised a query and we are waiting on the result. Last i spoke with the arrears support unit she said it was a technical error and they would keep me informed as to the progress.

We have not paid the 'increased amount' as per their letter only our usual monthly figure and will continue to do so until we hear otherwise


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## Gerry Canning

Unstacked; 

I cannot overstress the necessity to only operate in writing. In that way you will have a verifiable time line and a verifiable paper trail.

To (speak) to them is to add on another layer. 
For your own sanity , slow it down to a paper trail.
There is no way you will remember (i said, they said)!
Keep us posted please.


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## unstacked

Thank you Gerry
Putting it to paper now and sending off
Will post more when I hear back


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## unstacked

*Financial Ombudsman*

This is with the Financial Ombudsman now since mid September.
UB were hopeless in sorting this out so it was reported to the FO - all we want to do is get the mortgage right.
FO keep us in the loop by sending letters stating they are still looking into it etc


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## so-crates

Thanks unstacked, let us know how you got on. I have had a similar Lanigan's Ball with Ulster Bank this year, too much TRS, I query, they insist it was correct, they send a letter telling me they were wrong and would have to charge me more for the rest of the year, I tell them it was their fault, they send me an apology and the FO details. They charge me too much. Then come a few reimbursements I never asked for, one of which came with a whole bonus 5c that they tell me I will need to inform Revenue of in case I have a tax liability as a result... fun year - can't wait to read the annual statement for this one!


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## unstacked

Its going on now since July So-crates and we would just like it sorted.  We will pay the correct monthy payment when we absolutely know its the correct amount...but not until we hear from Financial Ombudsman.  
I have enough grief at moment with a BTL to be sold without the main home causing upset also...thing is we have no arrears on this mortgage and we struggle to keep it that way.


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## unstacked

*Result*

Financial Ombudsman came back last week with an 8 page letter outlining the whole issue from start to finish.

Short version - UB made error in calculating the re-capitalisation and the increased payment is the correct one.

Apologies from UB and a payment of €1500 to go towards costs etc


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## peteb

good for you!


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