# What about a campaign to encourage people to pay the Household Charge?



## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2012)

I would imagine that the vast majority of people support the household charge and other taxes, even if they don't like paying them. 

But the protests by the vocal minority who oppose them get a lot of attention. 

How would those of us who support the charge campaign in its favour? 

Here are some ideas - 

Maybe organise a day in mid March "Pay your Household Charge today"
Issue stickers "I have paid my household charge" 
Help relatives and neighbours who don't have internet access to pay online. 
Put up posters


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## truthseeker (9 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I would imagine that the vast majority of people support the household charge and other taxes, even if they don't like paying them.



What makes you imagine that given that the facts show that [broken link removed] 12% of people have paid so far? 

Just given those figures and todays date being March 9th Id say that that shows that the vast majority of people do NOT support the household charge.


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## jhegarty (9 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Maybe organise a day in mid March "Pay your Household Charge today"



Sounds like something that would have the same effect as a DoS attack on the site.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2012)

jhegarty said:


> Sounds like something that would have the same effect as a DoS attack on the site.



What? If everyone tried to pay on the same day, the site would crash? 

I would be delighted if the campaign was so successful that this happenened. 

This is going to happen anyway in the last few days of March when people go to pay it.

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2012)

truthseeker said:


> What makes you imagine that given that the facts show that [broken link removed] 12% of people have paid so far?
> 
> Just given those figures and todays date being March 9th Id say that that shows that the vast majority of people do NOT support the household charge.



There is a big difference between the number of people who support it and the number of people who have paid it. 

I didn't get around to paying it until yesterday, but I have always supported the tax. 

Most people tend to leave things to the last minute. Witness the rush for income tax towards the middle of November. 

Brendan


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## Ceist Beag (9 Mar 2012)

No offence Brendan but imho you might as well go around with a "Be a good citizen there now" campaign as essentially I think that is how it would be viewed. (Most) people are fully aware of this charge and for whatever reason have decided not to pay it yet (and I doubt it is because they are swayed by the vocal minority as they are well aware that any penalties will be owed by them, not just the vocal minority!). As truthseeker pointed out, this suggests that your original assumption is wrong.


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## truthseeker (9 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> There is a big difference between the number of people who support it and the number of people who have paid it.



Perhaps you know more than me then. I can only speak based on the figures I see.

Ancedotally, I personally know no one who supports it, although I do know one person who has paid it.


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## Gulliver (9 Mar 2012)

I agree with Brendan... We have a government which is making good efforts in a difficult situation and should be supported.  Indeed, if there was much more support for government in many other areas instead of the constant stream of negativity, the whole country would benefit.

I will be paying my household tax today


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## venice (9 Mar 2012)

> Most people tend to leave things to the last minute.


Brendan, if that's the case then there is no need for a campaign.

I think a campaign would be patronising to the public, a bit like having an employee of the month award or a sticker for best boy in the class. 

There is little support for this tax because of where the money will go...


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## 44brendan (9 Mar 2012)

"Death and taxes". Certainties, but neither are issues that the vast majority of us support. While agreeing that I don't see the charge itself as being a major issue, it will be interesting to note the Government response to non-payers.
There will probably be a significant upsurge in payers by the end of the month, but there is still likely to be a significant element of those who don't pay. Not necessarily because they are against it, but they are hoping that it will just go away! Government action towards non payers will be interesting as this is the first "voluntary" tax that has become payable for some time in Ireland. (ignoring car tax & TV licence which are policed).


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## demoivre (9 Mar 2012)

I would support a campaign to encourage  people to pay the household charge if it ran in tandem with a campaign to encourage county councils to stop wasting money ! The opulence of the new €40 million plus Wexford County Council building is beyond belief.


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## Sunny (9 Mar 2012)

If the vast majority support the charge, why would you need a campaign to encourage them to pay it?

I paid it because it is a tax imposed by a democratically elected Government. No different to raising income tax. I certainly don't agree that someone living in a one bed shoe box who is already paying management fees for various services should pay the same charge as someone living in 25 bedroom mansion even if this is supposedly only temporary. It is a lazy regressive tax.


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## demoivre (9 Mar 2012)

The shoe box might be a mortgage free asset, the mansion could be a negative equity liability.


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## chrisboy (9 Mar 2012)

Most likely the opposite way around..


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2012)

Sunny said:


> If the vast majority support the charge, why would you need a campaign to encourage them to pay it?



As I said



> I would imagine that the vast majority of people support the household  charge and other taxes, even if they don't like paying them.



I may be wrong and perhaps only a minority believe that they should pay their taxes, that in some way, taxes are optional.

The campaign would encourage those who are undecided and would prompt those who agree to pay it on time. 

Brendan


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## elefantfresh (9 Mar 2012)

I don't have a problem with it in theory once they deduct all the stamp duty I paid and THEN start charging me annually. How many people paid 30k stamp duty in the last number of years and are now going to be asked for more.

Its a good idea but it needs to be laid out fairly - in my opinion.


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## ANORAKPHOBIA (9 Mar 2012)

"Issue stickers "I have paid my household charge" 

This must rank right up there with yesterdays aborted Fine Gael celebration on the offensive and ludicrous idea scale.


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## mandelbrot (9 Mar 2012)

elefantfresh said:


> I don't have a problem with it in theory once they deduct all the stamp duty I paid and THEN start charging me annually. How many people paid 30k stamp duty in the last number of years and are now going to be asked for more.
> 
> Its a good idea but it needs to be laid out fairly - in my opinion.


 
Stamp duty is a transaction tax, the household charge is a different animal entirely, so I don't really see the logic of that.


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## Time (9 Mar 2012)

This is pure mad. Mad Ted!

I don't know of one person who has paid or intends to pay. Frankly I support the non payers.


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## T McGibney (9 Mar 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> Stamp duty is a transaction tax, the household charge is a different animal entirely.



Maybe so if you're doing a tax exam, but hardly if you're paying them.


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## truthseeker (9 Mar 2012)

Time said:


> I don't know of one person who has paid or intends to pay.



I do know one person who has paid, but they dont support it. But overall Im of the impression from media reports, websites like this, boards.ie, Facebook, conversations with friends, overheard at the gym, posters put up locally etc... that most people do not support this tax and Im absolutely baffled as to why Brendan opened this thread with the assertion that



> I would imagine that the vast majority of people support the household charge and other taxes, even if they don't like paying them.



and what gives him reasons to believe or come up with this assertion?

Im genuinely interested to know how someone is thinking that the vast majority of people support this, when it seems perfectly obvious to me that the truth is quite the opposite.


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## callybags (9 Mar 2012)

People who aren't strongly opposed to something seldom make their feelings known. This is why it appears that there is a majority who say they won't pay.

Everyone I know who is liable for this tax either has paid or intend to pay by the end of March.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2012)

truthseeker said:


> I do know one person who has paid, but they dont support it. But overall Im of the impression from media reports, websites like this, boards.ie, Facebook, conversations with friends, overheard at the gym, posters put up locally etc... that most people do not support this tax and Im absolutely baffled as to why Brendan opened this thread with the assertion that
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The only survey data which I can find is the Sunday Times poll on the Household Charge. 

44% intend to pay by 31 March 
36% say that they won't pay it
20% are undecided. 

Most people I know agree that they should pay their taxes. I do know a few who understate their income and cheat on their taxes, while happy to claim all the state benefits they can. 

But as Callybags says,  most people don't shout about something they support. It's the opponents who shout the loudest.

I remember going to a Residents' Association meeting about the proposal to introduce disk parking in the locality. It seemed obviously a good idea to me, but the vast majority of the speakers were vehemently opposed to it. This included the committee of the Residents' Association.  Only one or two people were brave enough to speak in favour of it. When the secret ballot was conducted by the City Council, it had around a 90% majority in favour. 

People don't like paying taxes. But they know that they are needed to provide the services we use. So I would expect that most people will pay this tax.


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## truthseeker (9 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But as Callybags says,  most people don't shout about something they support. It's the opponents who shout the loudest.



Fair enough - be interesting to see the numbers by March 31st.


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## ajapale (9 Mar 2012)

I think the idea of a campaign to encourage people to pay the _*property precursor tax*_ (Household Charge) is naive and a little daft.

I would like an option to _*"**pay under protest*_". Perhaps a tick box to register this and a tally at the end of the year.

Or how about decent discounts for early payers? Say a sliding scale -20% two months early -10% one month early. 0% on time etc.


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## T McGibney (9 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I remember going to a Residents' Association meeting about the proposal to introduce disk parking in the locality. It seemed obviously a good idea to me, but the vast majority of the speakers were vehemently opposed to it. This included the committee of the Residents' Association.  Only one or two people were brave enough to speak in favour of it. When the secret ballot was conducted by the City Council, it had around a 90% majority in favour.



I'm always suspicious of votes that command a 90% majority. I wonder what % of residents voted in this secret ballot. And I wonder how they would vote now if the ballot was repeated. Some friends who live not far from Dublin city centre tell me that disk parking is a disaster for them as visiting friends, relatives, babysitters etc have to pay €2.90 an hour to park until midnight, 7 days a week.


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## Purple (9 Mar 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Maybe so if you're doing a tax exam, but hardly if you're paying them.



Why?
I paid stamp duty on my house which is now in negative equity but I see no connection between that and the household charge. 
Paying stamp duty probably saved me money; without that cost, which was not something I could add to the cost when applying for a mortgage, the price of my house would have been higher. It was a tax that took available money out of the hands of the seller, not the buyer.


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## Purple (9 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I would imagine that the vast majority of people support the household charge and other taxes, even if they don't like paying them.
> 
> But the protests by the vocal minority who oppose them get a lot of attention.
> 
> ...


I like the idea of a media campaign that gives voice to those of us who see it as their duty to pay their taxes.
I’m not a fan of the current tax but I an 100% supportive of a property tax based on the value of the asset. I just hope that there won’t be a raft of exemptions and we don’t end up in a situation where people who are asset rich but on a low income can get away without paying it.


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Mar 2012)

Purple said


> I’m not a fan of the current tax but I an 100% supportive of a property tax based on the value of the asset.



Agreed.


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## mcloving (9 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I would imagine that the vast majority of people support the household charge and other taxes, even if they don't like paying them.
> 
> But the protests by the vocal minority who oppose them get a lot of attention.
> 
> ...



 Who are you representing???#

Put up posters,  ridiculous.

Oh it is an Aprils fools joke    phew..


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## Woodie (9 Mar 2012)

No one likes paying tax so I can't see how a campaign to actively support paying tax would ever catch on.
I realize the distress the country is in and I have paid the tax.  I think the problem have is the concept of the unknown down the line, especially if income is uncertain.  


Purple said:


> I’m not a fan of the current tax but I an 100% supportive of a property tax based on the value of the asset. I just hope that there won’t be a raft of exemptions and we don’t end up in a situation where people who are asset rich but on a low income can get away without paying it.


Having lived in the UK with Council Tax which steadily increased to sizable sums regardless of income or ability to pay, I am totally against  tax organized in this way.  Personally I "prefer" (I use this word with caution) a local income tax.  Normally it is not possible to sell up your asset if you have a blip in income.


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## Leaky1 (9 Mar 2012)

Sunny said:


> I paid it because it is a tax imposed by a democratically elected Government. No different to raising income tax. I certainly don't agree that someone living in a one bed shoe box who is already paying management fees for various services should pay the same charge as someone living in 25 bedroom mansion even if this is supposedly only temporary. It is a lazy regressive tax.



I paid it 2 weeks ago. I don't agree with it. It's just more money into a large blackhole - if it paid for council services/roads/etc I would happier to pay it.

I live in a one-bed shoebox and pay management fees, and the mortgage is double that of any possible sale price even after putting lumpsums of savings to pay it down faster. Oh, and it's not even a sweet tracker rate.

But I paid it and hope to god that whatever they bring in to replace it next year will be more equitable.


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## Protocol (10 Mar 2012)

To those that say they don't know anybody who has paid, I know plenty of people who have paid.


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## Woodie (10 Mar 2012)

Leaky1 said:


> I paid it 2 weeks ago. I don't agree with it. It's just more money into a large blackhole - if it paid for council services/roads/etc I would happier to pay it.
> .


In the UK council tax is split mostly to education (abt 80% I remember), policing and rubbish collection. However there is a huge difference in rates within the system where people in Chelsea pay less than poorer areas of London for example.
Transparency in government spending and running the country like a business, sacking employees who don't perform, fixed contracts, the things we thought we were promised by the so called Croke Park agreement and then I'd be happer to buy into this new tax.



Leaky1 said:


> But I paid it and hope to god that whatever they bring in to replace it next year will be more equitable.


 
I fear that whatever they bring in will not be equitable if only based on property value with disregard to ability to pay.


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Mar 2012)

ajapale said:


> I think the idea of a campaign to encourage people to pay the _*property precursor tax*_ (Household Charge) is naive and a little daft.



I don't know why people think it's daft? 

There is a major and loud campaign from a small vocal minority not to pay this tax. They give the impression that the majority are against paying the tax. It would be useful to have some sort of citizens' group who promote the idea of paying taxes, whether we approve of the taxes or the way they are spent. 

People are fully entitled to campaign for reform of the tax. They are fully entitled to campaign to have the tax abolished. But while the tax is there, they should not be campaigning for people not to pay it. 

I have spoken to a few people since starting the thread. None had paid although all of them intend paying it before the end of March. One said she was waiting for a bill. The other had read the Freeman Nonsense and thought that maybe he didn't have to pay it. 

Maybe a public campaign would not take off, but those of us who are paying it should be telling people that we are paying it and encouraging others to do so as well. 

Brendan


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## truthseeker (10 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> ........those of us who are paying it should be telling people that we are paying it and encouraging others to do so as well.



Would you normally go round telling people youve paid your taxes and encouraging them to do the same? Its a bit patronising isnt it? What is the motive for such an action?


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## thedaras (10 Mar 2012)

Id imagine there is a lot of bravdo around and the figures will tell the real story.
And as Brendan said 


> *But the protests by the vocal minority who oppose them get a lot of attention*


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Mar 2012)

truthseeker said:


> Would you normally go round telling people youve paid your taxes and encouraging them to do the same?



Absolutely not. I would not _normally _do it. 

But there isn't usually a well orchestrated campaign telling people not to pay their taxes.  We need to counteract that campaign.


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## Time (11 Mar 2012)

Why? 

That is the job of the government.


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## truthseeker (11 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> *We need to counteract that campaign.*



Why? As Time says, its that not the governments job?


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Mar 2012)

Time said:


> Why?
> 
> That is the job of the government.



I think it's the job of society to encourage people to act as good citizens.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Mar 2012)

Folks this thread is about how to  encourage people to pay the Household Charge.

There are plenty of other threads for discussing the fairness or unfairness of the charge and Data Protection issues. I have deleted the off-topic posts. Feel free to raise them on the appropriate threads or start new threads.

Brendan


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## Ceist Beag (12 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I think it's the job of society to encourage people to act as good citizens.



 I refer you back to my original reply Brendan. TBH this sounds like a sketch out of Father Ted! I know your intentions are good Brendan but this would come across as so condescending and patronising that it would never get off the ground.


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## ajapale (12 Mar 2012)

ajapale said:


> I think the idea of a campaign to encourage people to pay the _*property precursor tax*_ (Household Charge) is naive and a little daft.
> 
> I would like an option to _*"**pay under protest*_". Perhaps a tick box to register this and a tally at the end of the year.
> 
> Or how about _*decent discounts*_ for early payers? Say a sliding scale -20% two months early -10% one month early. 0% on time etc.



I think decent discounts for early payers would encourage payment of the _*property precursor tax*_.

Are there any examples either here or abroad of successful campaigns encouraging citizens to pay a specific new tax?

I still think the idea, while well intentioned, is just a little daft.

If I were asked to implement such a campaign I would first of all do some decent professional market research (qualitative and quantitative) to determine the target audience (customers). I would then engage professional Advertising Agencies / PR companies determine the message and decide on the media. I would then put in place a metric to determine how successful the campaign was.

Much as I dislike the property precursor tax I detest Rabbit's TV tax and the associated public campaigns to encourage people to pay it.

When I was a teenager there was a public service ad aimed at youngsters to discourage them from drinking. The actor says something like " we go out every Saturday night and get completely locked" and the other actor shrugs his shoulders and says "yeh". The second actors response summed up the response of the target audience as "so what".

Any public service advertising will be up against it to be successful in my opinion.

Perhaps if the intention was to make payers feel better about paying a different approach might be taken.


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## serotoninsid (12 Mar 2012)

ajapale said:


> Any public service advertising will be up against it to be successful in my opinion.  Perhaps if the intention was to make payers feel better about paying a different approach might be taken.


I think people would feel a lot more positive (in so far as it's possible to be positive about paying taxes) if they could see taxes converted into tangible services.  The past hasn't been a good indicator in this regard.  Of course, the past doesn't always have to be the same as the future experience - but a seismic shift needs to take place in the way public money is used (rather than wasted).


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## truthseeker (12 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Folks this thread is about how to  encourage people to pay the Household Charge.



Im still baffled as to why you feel the need to be encouraging people.

It does seem as if there is an agenda here.


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## ajapale (12 Mar 2012)

The title of the thread as proposed is : *What about a campaign to encourage people to pay the Household Charge?*

So far we have had one solitary poster (Brendan Burgess) in favour and all the rest (including myself) are against the proposal to have a campaign.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Mar 2012)

> It does seem as if there is an agenda here.



Of course there is an agenda. It's to counteract the concerted campaign to discourage people from paying their household tax. There is a danger that people will get the impression that the majority  are not going to pay their tax and I think it's important to counteract  that view. 

That campaign needs to be counteracted as, I believe, that the majority of people, believe that they should pay their taxes. 

This is not about whether this is a good tax or a bad tax. That is being debated in other threads. There are lots of changes I would make to this tax. There are lots of changes I would make to other taxes. There are lots of changes I would make to the way tax revenue is spent. But they are separate arguments and they are discussed at lenght in other threads. 


So far this has been described as 
"a little daft"
"condescending"
"patronising" 

But I don't understand why. 

Is the campaign to discourage people to pay this tax 
"a little daft"
"condescending"
"patronising" ?

Brendan


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## Time (12 Mar 2012)

If the government introduced a mad and frankly silly tax (say a computer tax) in the morning would you be so eager to get people to pay?


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Mar 2012)

Time said:


> If the government introduced a mad and frankly silly tax (say a computer tax) in the morning would you be so eager to get people to pay?



It's a hypothetical question as "mad and frankly silly" is a matter of personal opinion. 

If the government introduced a tax which in my opinion. was a "mad and frankly silly tax". I would probably focus my energy on campaigning to have that tax revoked.  I wouldn't campaign to discourage people from paying the tax.

It's very important to have balance in any debate. I have not heard anyone, other than myself, calling on people to pay this tax. I have heard lots of people calling on the public to break the law and not pay the tax. 

A lot of people follow the crowd. If they think that the crowd is not paying, they won't pay. If they think that the crowd is paying, they will pay. 

The "anti" campaign is very dangerous in this respect. They might succeed in converting a majority into not paying their taxes.


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## ajapale (12 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Here are some ideas -
> 
> Maybe organise a day in mid March "*Pay your Household Charge today*"
> Issue _*stickers*_ "I have paid my household charge"
> Put up _*posters*_



Yes, I find these aspects of the anti campaign quite daft and a little quaint. As another poster noted it smacks of "employee of the month" and "best boy in the class" schemes. _*Graffiti*_ is another nasty part of this and previous "anti" campaigns but it is silly and not effective and should not be copied by any pro campaign. 

If I were asked to do a _*pro-property precursor tax campaign*_ I would proceed as outlined above (market research, targeted professional campaign with metrics to measure effective) and I certainly wouldn't ape the anti campaign.

To repeat some suggestions I made earlier.


ajapale said:


> Are there any examples either here or abroad of  successful campaigns encouraging citizens to pay a specific new tax?
> 
> If I were asked to implement such a campaign I would first of all do  some decent professional market research (qualitative and quantitative)  to determine the target audience (customers). I would then engage  professional Advertising Agencies / PR companies determine the message  and decide on the media. I would then put in place a metric to determine  how successful the campaign was.
> 
> Any public service advertising will be up against it to be successful in my opinion.


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## damiandor (12 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> That campaign needs to be counteracted as, *I believe, that the majority of people, believe that they should pay their taxes. *
> 
> 
> Brendan



I don't really think people do believe they should pay their taxes.
Only 12% paid so far.... so where is that "MAJORITY" gone?


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## truthseeker (12 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> They might succeed in converting a majority into not paying their taxes.



If this was the case, and a majority didnt pay - what would that mean? Should a tax that the majority are not in favour of be imposed?
Enda himself, in 1994, stated that it is morally wrong, unjust and unfair to tax a persons home. So why does he think its morally right now?

People dont have a viable form of protest other than not paying, so I can understand why this is the form it is taking.

Havent taxes that the majority disagreed with in the past been reversed? (Someone with a better knowledge of tax history in Ireland may be able to provide examples or dispute this).


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Mar 2012)

truthseeker said:


> Havent taxes that the majority disagreed with in the past been reversed?



I don't know of this. But so what if it has happened. 

Campaign against this tax. Don't vote for FG or Labour in the next election. Vote for People before Profit or Sinn Féin.  

Brendan


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## ontour (12 Mar 2012)

People should be encouraged to pay it. The cost of pursuing those who do not pay or the cost of rescinding it and replacing it will another tax will result in less of the tax being spent productively and more being spent on administration.  

It is very naive for people to think that they are 'getting one over' on the system by not paying.


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## truthseeker (12 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I don't know of this. But so what if it has happened.



Here.



> The Dublin fight against water charges 1994-1997
> 
> Many councils decided to introduce water charges, while others such as Dublin initially decided not to do so. When the Dublin local government changed course and introduced water charges in 1994, this was met by an Anti-Water Charges Campaign including demonstrations and a boycott of the new charges. The city threatened to cut the water supply to those who did not pay. *After lengthy court battles, some non-paying users were cut off, but the non-payment of water charges continued.* On 19 December 1996, on the eve of general elections, the Minister for the Environment Brendan Howlin from the Labour Party of the Rainbow Government of Fine Gael–Labour Party–Democratic Left announced that *the water charge was going to be replaced* by a new system whereby the road tax collected in each area would be the source for local council funding.





> However, given popular discontent the new government chose not to pursue domestic water charges.



So majority discontent can cause reversal of policy.


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## csirl (13 Mar 2012)

As I'm mentioned on another thread, I am not aware of receiving any information from official sources on this tax - no leaflet or letters, no posters in my area, havent seen any TV adverts etc. etc. 

I still reckon that a very large portion of the population are totally unaware they have to pay by the end of the month. Yes, many may have heard some vague hearsay about the tax, but in the absence of any official publicity/notice will have no idea as to deadlines etc.

It's very easy for those of us who follow news/politics to become aware of it, but what if you are in the following category of person - one which is very common in this country - you'd have no idea:

- only read English tabloid newspapers
- have no interest in Irish 'politics' i.e. dont watch programmes like Frontline, Primetime etc or follow on websites like this one
- only watch sports and/or soap operas and/or reality tv and/or light entertainment on TV.
- dont listen to RTE Radio 1.


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## ANORAKPHOBIA (13 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> I am not aware of receiving any information from official sources on this tax - no leaflet or letters, no posters in my area, havent seen any TV adverts etc. etc. ..


 
I would have to strongly disagree with your choices regarding the tv programmes and radio channel that you quote. Each of these choices would have serious questions to answer regarding biased attitudes to a number of political issues in the very recent past.


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## T McGibney (13 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Vote for People before Profit or Sinn Féin.



Hi Brendan

People opposed to the household charge should note that Sinn Féin are running a local tax system in Northern Ireland that costs every household the best part of £1,000 each year.


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## venice (13 Mar 2012)

Brendan,
While i think your intentions are sincere, i think a campaign is the wrong way to go about it for reasons mentioned earlier by myself and others. I have not paid it yet and am 50 /50 as to whether I will.
Declan Ganley is tweeting about this this morning and makes some good points, see a sample below.



> I've registered for the household tax & septic tank tax. I'd encourage others to do so & obey the law; not worth getting in trouble over it.


 


> The way to deal with the matter of the household & septic tank tax, is to remember who the legislators are that forced those taxes on us.


 


> Thing is, its all good & well for some politician to say they'll go to prison rather than pay the tax. They'll still be getting their salary


 
This is a better way to convince people compared to an organised campaign....
maybe i will pay?


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## MB05 (13 Mar 2012)

I don't agree with this tax or how the government have gone about introducing it and right now I am not inclined to pay it. I may buckle as at heart I am a goody goody but right now I feel like making a stand and lets face it what will the stand cost me, €20? Oooh big whoop! It will be a small price to pay if the government get a collective kicking from joe public.  

I know some of you will think I am petty or picking the wrong fight but I seriously think the pro paying campaign are underestimating people's apathy towards this tax. For me it embodies everything that is wrong with this country. Making the government sweat, even if it is just for a few weeks or months and sending a strong message to the EU,the Troika and anyone else that thinks we are the whipping boys of Europe gives me a certain satisfaction. We are supposed to be the fighting Irish and it is time we stood up for ourselves. I want the government to know I'm not happy with them. I want justice, I want someone to pay for the mess we are in. I want them to prosecute the wayward bankers and builders, strip them of all their assets, jail them.  

I am not saying we should do what the Greeks did but in our way (peaceful and not too damaging) we get to say 'Enough'. Get your extra taxes from the wealthy, stop protecting yourselves and your cronies and make everyone pay their fair share. 

They say it goes towards cleaning the streets, lighting, grass cutting and other essential maintenance the councils 'supposedly' carry out. I say supposedly because they do the bare minimum. Tell the victims of flooding why the drains are clogged with leaves, why there is rubbish everywhere, why there are holes in the roads, why concrete paths are being lifted by roots of trees they planted in estates all over Dublin and they never fix, why temporary 'tarmac' road coverings have yet to be replaced by concrete even though they charge utility companies reinstatement charges to do so, why they lumbered us with Greyhound for our bins without much notice or alternative etc etc. The councils are useless and paying them another €100 with no guarantee the services they provide will get any better irks me. 

This is what is making me hold off not some anti household charge campaign. I am a good law abiding citizen. I have paid every tax they imposed, every penny I owe, I give to charity, I pay the residents association a small fee to help keep my estate looking well etc and I resent being made to feel I am some militant Sinn Feiner because I don't agree with this tax.

I don't think it is fair to tar normal people with being aligned to the People before Profit or Sinn Fein ideology just because they oppose the tax. I for one don't believe in their politics but I also don't believe in the current government's. They are just following the same policies as Fianna Fail before them. Truth is we do what the EU tell us regardless of who is in power. You only have to look at the German government discussing Irish policy before the Irish do to see this. The best we can hope for is decent TD's at a local level regardless of party affiliations. I vote for those that are active in the community, that are available to their constituents and generally care about issues effecting the area's they live in.

The middle classes have had enough. We can't pay for everyone's mistakes. I'm tired of bearing the brunt of the recession and an indiscriminate tax like this is just another example of how out of touch our government are with the people of Ireland. 

Is it so wrong that I want them to know this?


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## ajapale (13 Mar 2012)

MB05 said:


> I seriously think the pro paying campaign are underestimating people's apathy towards this tax.


 
If people are apathetic then they will simply pay the tax with out much fuss. If the anti _*property precursor tax*_ people are successfull then the will awaken the masses from their apathetic slumber and we will have mass non payment of the tax.


Brendan,
Im still trying to think of a good pro tax campaign and can only think of the environmentalists (plastic bag tax and carbon taxes) and health lobbyists (higher prices for cigarettes and alcohol) and the trade lobbyists (import duties) but not of these bear much similarity to the circumstances surrounding the property precursor tax.

Would you consider a pro septic tank registration charge campaign? or a pro rod licence charge campaign?

aj


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## serotoninsid (14 Mar 2012)

T McGibney said:


> People opposed to the household charge should note that Sinn Féin are running a local tax system in Northern Ireland that costs every household the best part of £1,000 each year.


Yes, and there is a distinct difference between the council tax and our  household charge.  The former delivers services - REAL tangible services.  Drawing on past experience - it's doubtful if the latter will - at least not to the same extent.


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## Gervan (14 Mar 2012)

I think what MB05 meant to write was _antipathy_, rather than apathy. Much stronger. S/He was just carried away by the strength of his feelings. Which are very much mine also, and very widespread. 
That is why a campaign to persuade people to pay this tax stands no chance.


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## thedaras (16 Mar 2012)

I would encourage others to pay this charge for no other reason than to send Daly et al a message...I do think that the charge for not paying by March 31st is too low , people will delay payment and Daly et al will take the credit for the low numbers paying.
Lets be honest here,if we had a 100e ESB bill and after 6 months of non payment we were  only charge 10e then most would wait the 6 months!
A campaign to encourage a big increase in the penalty's for non payment would certainly help,watch that space as soon as the penalty charge increase to 1000e ...


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## ANORAKPHOBIA (16 Mar 2012)

What a stupid reason to encourage anyone to pay a tax. Also there is no comparison with this charge and an electricity bill.


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## T McGibney (16 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> A campaign to encourage a big increase in the penalty's for non payment would certainly help,watch that space as soon as the penalty charge increase to 1000e ...



Thankfully we live in a civilised democracy so this sort of bullying strategy will never be a realistic option. For a country that is loudly proclaimed to have shook off our Catholic heritage, many of us seem still to have an intense collective desire for self-flagellation.


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## Manuel (16 Mar 2012)

*thedaras* makes a good point. Because the date is fast approaching, and as I haven't a huge amount of disposable income to hand until I get paid again on 30 March, I decided to check the late payment fees. I was very surprised to see that if I put off paying this until August, it will eventually cost me ~115 Euro (per property).

Even people who intend to pay it but want to register some kind of protest will find it easy enough to do nothing by 31 March, if their "protest" is only going to cost them a tenner ...


From the government website, https://www.householdcharge.ie/Faq.aspx#fk16 :

*(1) LATE PAYMENT FEES*​ 



The late payment fee to apply in the case of a Household Charge paid:

not later than 6 months after the due date, is 10% of the amount outstanding;
later than 6 months and not later than 12 months after the due date, is 20 % of the amount outstanding; or
later than 12 months after the due date, is 30 % of the amount outstanding.
*(2) LATE PAYMENT INTEREST*​



Late payment interest of 1% per month or part thereof will apply to unpaid amounts.​


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Mar 2012)

Agreed. The late payment charge should be related in some way to the cost of collecting it.

Even better would have been to set a charge of €150 with a payment date of 30 June. But those paying by the 31 March get a discount of €50. 

People hate fines but they love discounts. 

Brendan


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## thedaras (16 Mar 2012)

ANORAKPHOBIA said:


> What a stupid reason to encourage anyone to pay a tax. Also there is no comparison with this charge and an electricity bill.


You think having to pay a hefty fine is a "stupid reason"? Tell that to the thousands who are encouraged to submit their tax returns on time! I never said there was a comparison between the Esb and Household charge,perhaps read what Ive posted slowly..The use of the ESB was an example
of how a tiny fine would be no incentive to pay.


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## ANORAKPHOBIA (16 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Even better would have been to set a charge of €150 with a payment date  of 30 June. But those paying by the 31 March get a discount of €50.


So punish the less well off again Brendan.


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## ANORAKPHOBIA (16 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> I would encourage others to pay this charge for  no other reason than to send Daly et al a message..


No matter how slowly one reads the above it is still a stupid reason.


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## Woodie (16 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Agreed. The late payment charge should be related in some way to the cost of collecting it.
> 
> Even better would have been to set a charge of €150 with a payment date of 30 June. But those paying by the 31 March get a discount of €50.
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more, there was signs in various services of carrot rather than stick approach towards bill payments, alas it seems to be all stick of late.  

Additionally in relation to people claiming we don't get the same services as other countries i.e. UK council tax, I know from experience that the levels of service in the UK are certainly not consistent across the board, it depends on where you live.  

Furthermore how do we expect to ever have services if we are not willing to fund them?  Equally as a small economy, dispersed population we will have to compromise somewhere because of those economies of scale.  If we are to look at like for like size-wise we should be probably be aiming to have something similar to Denmark rather than the UK, France or Germany.  Don't think that will be very popular though.


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## thedaras (16 Mar 2012)

ANORAKPHOBIA said:


> No matter how slowly one reads the above it is still a stupid reason.


Could you try be a little rational ,less offensive or just read the posting guidelines..
Re reading my post slowly,I now have to tell you to read my second and first post again..Very SLowly as you have not grasped either one..what part of "I was not comparing the ESB bill to the Household charge,Do You not understand?
You keep saying that by my encouraging others to pay if for nothing elkse but to send a message to Daly et al ,is a stupid reason,but you have not said why?
Most would understand that by paying the household charge it would send Daly et al the message that their campaign has not worked as the reverse is also true,you seem to have trouble grasping this though...


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Mar 2012)

Folks

Can you please stick to the issues here and avoid personalised attacks. 

Describing an idea as "stupid" starts a row. Feel free to disagree with ideas, but avoid words such as "stupid"


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## T McGibney (16 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Agreed. The late payment charge should be related in some way to the cost of collecting it.
> 
> Even better would have been to set a charge of €150 with a payment date of 30 June. But those paying by the 31 March get a discount of €50.
> 
> ...



Unfortunately the hamfisted promotion and administration of the Household Charge system to date clearly betrays the fact that the people behind it have little or no 'real world' business experience, and begs the question as to why we are raising even more taxes to be spent and misspent by these people.


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## thedaras (16 Mar 2012)

Actually Brendan, perhaps if those in power made it clearer/an absolute that this must be paid ,it would help to ensure more do pay it,so maybe having Kenny saying something like this,while also letting people know that Daly and Co are incorrect?

The opposers are making it seem like its no problem not to pay this, the ahh shure they cant jail us all attitude,therefore those less inclined to pay,wont...


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## Time (17 Mar 2012)

It is true, they couldn't possibly jail all the non payers.


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## potnoodler (17 Mar 2012)

The only way they encourage me to pay this double taxation is by showing me how and where they plan on spending this , how much tax is collected in my local council area and where it goes , 
Just like they do with the motor tax


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## thedaras (17 Mar 2012)

Time said:


> It is true, they couldn't possibly jail all the non payers.


While this is true, it is wrong..
There would be a breakdown in society if we all decided that some of the taxes we pay are unfair and therefore if we all stop paying them ,sure they cant jail us all..

If its the case that we do things based on the fact that they cant jail us all,why stop at the household charge?

For example I don't feel its fair that half of the income in my household goes in tax,I dont feel its fair that I pay a household charge when I paid 40k on stamp duty,so how about those of us who pay half of our income in tax and those who paid huge amounts of stamp duty, refuse to pay it because they cant jail us all,oh wait a minute its taken at source..this is probably what will happen with he household charge.


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## roker (17 Mar 2012)

As an end result, could this bring down the Government? If so job done


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Mar 2012)

Folks

Yet another reminder.

Please debate the fairness of the charge itself in any one of the other threads. This is about whether or not there should be a campaign in support.

Off topic posts and replies to them will be deleted from this thread.

Brendan


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## Binomial (18 Mar 2012)

Kerry county manager Tom Curran spoke on radio Kerry last week encouraging citizens of the Kingdom to pay the charge.

[broken link removed]


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## theod (20 Mar 2012)

Surely the fairness of the charge should be a factor in whether there should be a campaign to support!


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## Binomial (20 Mar 2012)

All emails from Kerry County Council and many other Local authorities have been tagged with the following message.

*Household Charge - Funding Local Services - Avoid interest and penalties by registering and paying for your household charge before 31st March on www.householdcharge.ie* *
  Táille Tí - Ag Maoiniú Seirbhísí Áitiúla - Cláraigh agus íoc an táille tí roimh an 31ú Márta ag www.householdcharge.ie agus seachnóidh tú pionóis agus ús.*


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## queenlex (26 Mar 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I, too.
> 
> Brendan


 

I just wanted to say well done on your tv appearance the other night Brendan you were absolutely in the right in urging people to pay the charge.   If we had had something like it when we should have had it , i.e. pre-bubble it would have made a big difference.  Of course at the moment due to its simplicity its unfair but I'm assuming in time they'll sort that out..

Q


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Mar 2012)

Thanks queenie

It was a very odd show. One of the participants told the researcher in advance that she had paid the charge, but when asked live "Have you paid the charge?" she said she hadn't and was emphatic that she wouldn't.  I can only imagine that she wanted the crowd approval which people got for saying that they were not paying. 

Brendan


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## Purple (26 Mar 2012)

I thought it was very strange as well. They should have had a panel of 4 or 5 people both for and against. Instead we had what’s his name from FG looking completely out of his depth (and like he might burst out crying any minute) and Luke Flanagan who ran rings around him.
Tubridy  is useless at that sort of flowing current affairs item even if he wants to do it but he looked seriously uncomfortable on Friday night and seemed to rush through the whole thing.

There was no attempt at balance and no attempt by Tubridy to balance out the discussion with his own input (like good presenters should). He didn’t ask any hard questions and just let Flanagan make the same off-topic populist points over and over again. The one that got to me was  along the line of “we should cut out the waste in local authorities before we introduce a household charge”. What does he thing local authorities are going to use for money in the months and years during which those reforms are implemented?


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## DerKaiser (26 Mar 2012)

Purple said:


> What does he think local authorities are going to use for money in the months and years during which those reforms are implemented?


 
Not his problem. I thought he meant well at first, but the more I hear him, the more cynical his attitude becomes. H e makes no attempt to understand any real world implications of his populist stands and as such is open to being accused of self serving populism (looking after his own job).


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Mar 2012)

> There was no attempt at balance and no attempt by Tubridy to balance out the discussion with his own input



Hi Purple 

They did actually attempt balance. They tried to get people to say that they had paid. I tried to get people as well, but people were either not available or just didn't want to say so in public.

One member of the audience told the researcher she had paid, and then told Tubridy that she had not paid. 

Another member told the researcher in advance that she had paid and would speak about it ,but got a sore throat on the day. She was in the audience but didn't speak.

Tubridy did put it to Ming that he was breaking the law.  Presenters are more used to being tougher on government ministers. It was a tough gig for Tubridy as the show jumps around so many different issues and doesn't really deal with current affairs.


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## timmy (26 Mar 2012)

i personaly wouldnt agree with a campaign to encourage payment....

1. its so rushed and for someone in government not to come up with more  easy ways to pay it, is a farce and laughable...i mean as of today i  dont think you can even pay in the post office,,which would be the  choice of many especially the elderly,,,

2.its so unfair,,100euro for everyone across the board,,,again  laughable....i only returned to work after been unemployed for 2 year,,i  had to leave my home in the country and return to dublin for that  employment,still paying the mortgage in a house i dont live in,scraping  20grand a year..thats 0.5% of my gross

if the high earners and the very high earners paid 0.5% of their gross, would this not be so much fairer!!

i havent paid it as of today,nor will i pay it as of tomorrow,but i for  one would pay it if the system was fair,very fair for everybody


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## ClubMan (26 Mar 2012)

timmy said:


> if the high earners and the very high earners paid 0.5% of their gross, would this not be so much fairer!!


The €100 is a flat rate household charge. As a fixed charge it's indubitably a regressive charge/tax. But it's simply a stopgap precursor to a property tax which will presumably be based on the property value. You are talking about income tax. Different issue altogether.


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## timmy (26 Mar 2012)

my main point is why should i pay 100euro...and someone on 100grand plus only pay 100euro...not fair no matter how you look at it or digest it...that is why this household charge should not have been introduced at all..ie rushed into it.

if they want to introduce a household charge just make it fair....


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## ClubMan (27 Mar 2012)

There are many different inequities with all sorts of taxes. That in itself is not a convincing argument to evade them in my view.


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## csirl (27 Mar 2012)

I've got a gut feeling that the percentage of people paying will creep over 50% by the deadline or a short time afterwards. Irish people always leave paying this sort of thing to the last moment.

Once it creeps over 50% - even if by only a small margin - then any arguments that the majority of people think this tax shouldnt be paid falls away. Leaves the vocal minority in a very difficult position.


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## thedaras (27 Mar 2012)

timmyosts: 20:





> my main point is why should i pay 100euro...and someone on 100grand plus only pay 100euro...not fair no matter how you look at it or digest it...that is why this household charge should not have been introduced at all..ie rushed into it.
> if they want to introduce a household charge just make it fair....



Its a PROPERTY tax ,NOT a tax on income!


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## monagt (27 Mar 2012)

It's a Tax and as it takes no allowance of ability to pay it is regressive and should not have been introduced.
And its a tax out of the Nett Income after Tax, PRSI, Levies and UCS


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## ajapale (27 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> Its a PROPERTY tax ,NOT a tax on income.



Yes its a _*National Precursor Property Tax*_ levied on property owners with the stated intent of funding local government.


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## ajapale (28 Mar 2012)

I have moved the discussion about the broadsheet.ie articel here. Broadsheet.ie: The man who wants us to pay the property tax.


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## Fiskar (28 Mar 2012)

Many of us in older residential estates never see council services yet we are expected to pay estate fees for cutting open spaces that this household charge is supposed to look after. 

When I see the council doing service work in my estate, then I will consider paying it. Also I am discontinuing the estate fee as it clearly states on the household charge website that this charge covers "open spaces".

I wounder how many people are paying grass cutting fees in estates that the council have taken over and who are responsible for the upkeep of these areas, on top of the household charge.


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## serotoninsid (28 Mar 2012)

Fiskar said:


> Many of us in older residential estates never see council services yet we are expected to pay estate fees for cutting open spaces that this household charge is supposed to look after. I wounder how many people are paying grass cutting fees in estates that the council have taken over and who are responsible for the upkeep of these areas, on top of the household charge.


My understanding is that they don't cover grass cutting regardless of new or old estate.  That's the current state of play in any event.  I wouldn't hold your breath in the expectation (should the H.C. ultimately be paid by all and sundry) of this policy changing any time soon.


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## thedaras (30 Mar 2012)

The boycott the household charge rally/march is on this Saturday .
Based on the amount of people objecting to this charge,there should be at least 75/100 thousand in attendance..


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## truthseeker (30 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> The boycott the household charge rally/march is on this Saturday .
> Based on the amount of people objecting to this charge,there should be at least 75/100 thousand in attendance..



Why? All you need to do to object is to not pay.


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## chrisboy (30 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> The boycott the household charge rally/march is on this Saturday .
> Based on the amount of people objecting to this charge,there should be at least 75/100 thousand in attendance..



I wonder how many people would march in a Encouragement to pay march?


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## uptomyeyesin (30 Mar 2012)

Fiskar said:


> When I see the council doing service work in my estate, then I will consider paying it. Also I am discontinuing the estate fee as it clearly states on the household charge website that this charge covers "open spaces".



Same argument used in my estate to not pay fees - no services not paying. 

How will you ever get these services without paying? Bit of a catch 22 there.


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## jhegarty (30 Mar 2012)

uptomyeyesin said:


> Same argument used in my estate to not pay fees - no services not paying.
> 
> How will you ever get these services without paying? Bit of a catch 22 there.



There is no new money even if there is 100% compliance.


This only replaces a drop in funds from central government funds.


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## thedaras (30 Mar 2012)

truthseeker said:


> Why? All you need to do to object is to not pay.


If thats the case why organise a march at all?
There have been so many TDs /groups/facebook pages/people ranting about it ,that now is there chance to show how much not paying means to them,by supporting the march..
It is not true to say all you need to do to object is not pay,there are many many reasons why people wont pay on time..I dont pay my TV licence on time,doesnt mean I object to it..
Either way apparently its not enough to not pay;

[broken link removed]


> By standing together we can win!
> With just a few weeks to go it is vital we all stand together. Imagine the powerful message that will be sent, if on 31st March hundreds of thousands and possibly even a million households said ‘We’re not registering and we’re not paying the household tax’!



And a reminder that this doesnt end on March 31st,those who wish to  pay can still do so ..
.


> Let’s keep the pressure on. This is your campaign.
> Come to the National Rally Against the Household Tax at 1pm on Saturday 24th March in the National Stadium, South Circular Road, Dublin 8.
> Then on Saturday 31st March the Campaign will protest at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis being held at the National Convention Centre, Dublin.


So lets see how much this means to the the million alleged non payers..


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## truthseeker (30 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> If thats the case why organise a march at all?



You'd have to ask someone who organised it. I didnt. Im protesting by not paying.


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## thedaras (30 Mar 2012)

> Originally Posted by truthseeker
> Why? All you need to do to object is to not pay.


There you go... YOU are protesting by not paying,not everyone who hasnt paid yet is of the same stance..If that were the case there would obviously be no need for a march..
And there I was thinking this particular thread was about a *"campaign to encourage people to pay the household charge"*..


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## bazermc (30 Mar 2012)

I think it is time for this thread to be shutdown.

The conversation is gone way off the original topic


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## elcato (30 Mar 2012)

D d d d d d d d d d d ats all folks.


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