# Dangerous Driving - Red Lights



## Firefly (24 Feb 2017)

I remember as a young lad my mother used to call drivers who went through the lights late as "Amber Gamblers". Nobody went through a red light however. Today, in Cork at least, it is wholesale. I would go so far as to call it an epidemic. 2 incidents in the past week have left me shocked. For anyone familiar with Cork City, I was approaching the lights from Gael Cross at UCC wanting to turn left onto Western Road. The lights went amber and I stopped normally. As the lights went red my small fella asked me to change the radio station. As I was doing so, and the lights were now red for at least 1 second, the car behind me swerved past me and shot around the corner up the Western Road. If anyone was crossing the road or if there was a cyclist on the road they were goners. The other day at a similiar T junction I saw a car coming through the red lights and had to mount a footpath to avoid the car who took off normally through a green light.

Without being too dramatic, someone is going to get killed. For what? A few lousey seconds. If we ever want to have our kids cycling again things need to change.

As for what can be done, I think penalty points are not the answer...too many people get off on technicalities etc. I think the Gardai should have the power to seize the car for 24 hours for dangerous driving. If someone breaks a red light a tow-truck could be called and the car impounded for 24 hours with a 200e fine for retrieval. Try it for 6 months and see how it goes. 

It's at the stage now where I see more and more cars creeping through green lights. As I said, someone is going to get killed.


----------



## Leper (25 Feb 2017)

Yes Firefly, it could have been me who wrote your post.  You're right.  Try any of the entrances to the Kinsale Road roundabout where cars continue to drive through red lights for up to four seconds.  A disaster waiting to happen there.  It is the same with all the other roundabouts nearby.  Then there is the turnoff for Douglas where drivers gamble on red again and of course occupy yellow boxes blocking traffic from everywhere else.

Only last week in Cork after I had stopped at a red light the guy behind started gesticulating with his fist.  Not content with that he jumped out of his car, banged on my side window screaming "You would have got through . . ." I apologised for stopping because of the red light and wished him a good wake before his burial in nearby St-Michaels as I reckon he does this every day. I knew the guy (he did not recognise me in his rage) and he was driving to his home 50 yards distant.


----------



## Dan Murray (25 Feb 2017)

I agree with Firefly and Leper - I regularly encounter dangerous driving to the point that when I hear of a motor accident - I genuinely wonder about the use of the word accident, reasonably defined as:

*1*. An unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.
*2*. An event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause.

The bottom line is that with all the crap driving we see around us, it is not unexpected and it is not by chance that people get killed and maimed.


Is there a facility to report dangerous driving? Have people done this? What was the outcome?


----------



## cremeegg (25 Feb 2017)

I certainly don't recognise this type of driving. Must be a Cork thing.


----------



## elacsaplau (25 Feb 2017)

I fully agree that there is a lot of dangerous driving out there and not just at traffic lights.

Point taken Dan re what constitutes an accident - e.g. how many MG of alcohol does one have to have in one's system before it's no longer an accident? By extension, surely a similar responsibility/culpability attaches to excessive speed, not respecting traffic lights, etc.

For the record, my comments are not Cork related.


----------



## Leper (26 Feb 2017)

A few years ago I got a present of an Advanced Driving Course.  Always I considered myself to be a good driver.  Having taken the Advanced Course I learned that the vast majority of drivers have faults including me.  There is no such thing as the perfect driver. There are those with lifelong bad habits e.g. breaking and then indicating or not indicating etc.

Common sense is not so common on the road either.  It is easy to blame speedsters, women drivers, male drivers, ambler gamblers, drunken drivers, over 60's, Sunday drivers, boy racers etc. But, if all of us changed our bad driving habits over a long period of time lives would be saved and driving would become more enjoyable.  But, if you are dead beat on racing from red light to red light then . . . sooner or later you'll get your just desserts . . . just don't take us with you.

Somebody above wanted stricter driving laws.  We already have the laws, but they need to be implemented.  Some kindness towards other drivers goes a long way too.  Remember we all have our moments.


----------



## Dan Murray (26 Feb 2017)

Leper said:


> Always I considered myself to be a good driver.



Reminds me of the surveys which find that 68% of men believe they are above average drivers...............and 76% above average in bed


----------



## cremeegg (26 Feb 2017)

Dan Murray said:


> Reminds me of the surveys which find that 68% of men believe they are above average drivers...............and 76% above average in bed




It is of course perfectly possible for more than 50% of drivers to be better than average.

I am certainly a better than average driver. I don't break red lights, I don't break the speed limit, I can merge effectively at roundabouts.

You may also be a better than average driver, perhaps you can get ahead of me 9 times out of 10 between one set of lights and the next. Maybe you can get your car to go from 0 to 60 even faster than it says in the manual.

If you allow everyone to define good for themselves then its perfectly possible for most to be better than average.


----------



## roker (27 Feb 2017)

I have noticed this practice in Cork recently, they can get camera's that take pictures of the red light jumpers, trouble is it will take a lot of camera's.


----------



## Purple (27 Feb 2017)

Drones are being used as speed cameras in some places. They could also be used to catch people running red lights etc.


----------



## thedaddyman (27 Feb 2017)

It's not a uniquely Cork thing, I see it regularly turning left onto the N7 at Newlands Cross and indeed on a lot of the lights on the Belgard road in Dublin , there seems to be a perception with some drivers that if the light has only been red for 3 or 4 seconds, it's not really red and you don't really have to stop.


----------



## Leper (2 Mar 2017)

Purple said:


> Drones are being used as speed cameras in some places. They could also be used to catch people running red lights etc.



Where are drones being used as speed cameras etc? Has a "Drone User Allowance" been negotiated by the relative trade union?


----------



## Purple (2 Mar 2017)

Leper said:


> Where are drones being used as speed cameras etc? Has a "Drone User Allowance" been negotiated by the relative trade union?


Australia and, I think, parts of the USA. 
If they were introduced here we could get ten employees from Irish Water, you know, the former Council Employees, and allocate them as "Minders" or "Supervisors" for the drones. The "work" could be done from home as the actual running of the units would be outsourced to a private company who employs former convicted perverts who used to use drone to look through bedroom windows. Eventually there would have to be a tribunal, running for 15 years (or however long it took to turn 45 lawyers into millionaires), during which the "Minders" and the people who "suffered at the hands of the Drones" could relate their stories. The fact that there was no substance to the issue would be lost under the wave of Human Interest fluff pieces on Morning Ireland and Claire Byrne Live. They would just have to follow the Water Charges template there.


----------



## Purple (2 Mar 2017)

Now that I think about it the working from home bit mightn't be a runner as there would have to be a workplace ergonomics and Health and Safety audit done on the offices (living rooms) of the "Wurkers". It would be cheaper to just de-centralist the operation and pay the hard working "Wurkers" the mileage for their bi-monthly meetings.
Training costs would of course be extra.


----------



## Dan Murray (2 Mar 2017)

Sincere apologies Firefly - your thread has deviated somewhat from its course.

It is not the fault of the immediately previous poster, the "IPP" - the union marshmallow was presented and the IPP simply bit its ass off in an involuntary reflex action - in effect, he had no real choice.

No, the guilty party here is definitely the Leper who introduced this marshmallow in the first place.


----------



## Leper (2 Mar 2017)

Dan Murray said:


> Sincere apologies Firefly - your thread has deviated somewhat from its course.
> 
> It is not the fault of the immediately previous poster, the "IPP" - the union marshmallow was presented and the IPP simply bit its ass off in an involuntary reflex action - in effect, he had no real choice.
> 
> No, the guilty party here is definitely the Leper who introduced this marshmallow in the first place.



Guilty as Charged . . . 

Lep


----------



## Leper (3 Mar 2017)

Seriously guys, if we don't change our driving habits the carnage will continue.  We can blame drivers who drink.  We can blame boy racers. We can blame the condition of our cars. We can haunt the cyclists.  Let's not forget the pedestrians too and we can have them shoulder the blame. Everybody is wrong except ourselves.

We've had the tv ads filmed from 6 feet down in a grave.  Then there were the gardaí visiting the home to advise the road death of a family member.  We have had people filmed in hospitals maimed because of involvement in  road traffic accidents.  Victims have spoken out from wheelchairs etc etc.

When was the last time you heard somebody from a road traffic accident admit he was 100% in the wrong? You'll hear "I know I was the main cause, but the other guy was 40% the cause."

Until we cop on and show some kind of kindness towards others on the road and stop thinking the way we do our dreadful road death/serious injury count will continue to grow and grow.  Let's start by showing good example.  Well, we have to start somewhere.


----------



## Purple (3 Mar 2017)

Dan Murray said:


> Sincere apologies Firefly - your thread has deviated somewhat from its course.
> 
> It is not the fault of the immediately previous poster, the "IPP" - the union marshmallow was presented and the IPP simply bit its ass off in an involuntary reflex action - in effect, he had no real choice.
> 
> No, the guilty party here is definitely the Leper who introduced this marshmallow in the first place.


My Friend Leper knows me too well and, as usual, played me like a fiddle. 
My am a hapless victim of his nefarious ways.


----------



## jjm (3 Mar 2017)

also your Friends Liam and Paul


----------



## Purple (3 Mar 2017)

jjm2016 said:


> also your Friends Liam and Paul


I have way too much regard for Leper to mention him in the same breath as those two.


----------



## Firefly (3 Mar 2017)

I still think seizing the car would be the best deterrent. Ditto for drink driving. And as those with the most money usually drive the most expensive cars it would tick the "progressive" box...


----------



## terrysgirl33 (6 Mar 2017)

There are a couple of junctions in Dublin where it happens regularly, enough so I've learned to be careful.


----------



## Leper (27 Mar 2017)

Five people died on our roads this weekend as a result of road traffic accidents.  All of them could have been prevented. Will we ever learn?


----------



## Sunny (27 Mar 2017)

How do you know all them could have been prevented? Seen the accident reports ruling out blown tyres, vehicle malfunction already? I am sure most accidents are preventable but sometimes people make mistakes because they are human. Not because they are speeding, being reckless or driving dangerously. Unfortunately because of the nature of road accidents, some people pay the ultimate price for their own or other people's mistakes. There is not one person here who has never made  a mistake or lost concentration when driving. We are just the lucky ones. Five people lost their lives in the past couple of days. I know but the grace of god, it could be me anytime I get in a car. Yesterday, I saw a woman panic at a junction when she heard sirens. She went straight through the junction just as the ambulance was coming through. She was two seconds from being smashed side on. That same woman could have had a full licence, middle aged,never speeded or drive recklessly but could have died from making one simple mistake. It was preventable. Yes. But how do you stop humans from making bad decisions? Unfortunately there will always be some level of accidents and deaths. By the way, this is no defence of dangerous, reckless drunk, rubbish drivers that use of words. These people though will never learn until they kill or cripple themselves or someone else. Until then, they are the best drivers in the world and accidents are for crap drivers.


----------



## Leper (27 Mar 2017)

Sorry Sunny and Purple, I don't see it your way.  Accidents happen by accident, that's why they are called accidents.  Nobody sets out to drive himself into danger or others into danger for that matter.  Unfortunately, we all have "moments" and they result in danger to others.  We have tried everything with tv ads showing people confined to wheelchairs begging to people to drive more safely, we've had cameras filming from the bottom of graves showing the result of what can happen as a result of bad driving, we've had hospital scenes showing dreadful injuries, we've had gardaí visiting homes informing parents that a loved one has died on the road etc etc. It's all going nowhere as the accidents continue to occur.

During icy conditions we all drive more safely.  Suddenly, the ice is gone and we are back to our old habits. Why can we not continue driving in a more safe way?

Until road users change the  way they behave we will continue to see carnage on our roads. I don't wish to sound like somebody hogging the high moral ground but we have to start somewhere. Perhaps now is the time to change the bad road using habits most of us have got ourselves used to?

The alternative is unthinkable . . .  and each one of us has the choice.


----------



## Purple (27 Mar 2017)

Leper said:


> Sorry Sunny and Purple, I don't see it your way.  Accidents happen by accident, that's why they are called accidents.  Nobody sets out to drive himself into danger or others into danger for that matter.  Unfortunately, we all have "moments" and they result in danger to others.  We have tried everything with tv ads showing people confined to wheelchairs begging to people to drive more safely, we've had cameras filming from the bottom of graves showing the result of what can happen as a result of bad driving, we've had hospital scenes showing dreadful injuries, we've had gardaí visiting homes informing parents that a loved one has died on the road etc etc. It's all going nowhere as the accidents continue to occur.
> 
> During icy conditions we all drive more safely.  Suddenly, the ice is gone and we are back to our old habits. Why can we not continue driving in a more safe way?
> 
> ...


I think that's Sunny's point; we need to look at ourselves first. We all do the odd dangerous thing on the road, not necessarily because we are speeding or aggressive or drunk etc but because we are not concentrating enough. We can't change other people but we can change ourselves.


----------



## Firefly (28 Mar 2017)

Leper said:


> Nobody sets out to drive himself into danger or others into danger for that matter.



Breaking red lights has become the norm so people are knowingly putting themselves and others at risk on a daily basis. We've hit saturation point re TV adverts. It's time to start mandatory impounding of cars which would eradicate the problem overnight IMO. Ditto for phone use - if caught, the Garda simply takes and destroys the phone on the spot. No lengthy tv campaign needed!


----------



## Purple (28 Mar 2017)

Firefly said:


> . Ditto for phone use - if caught, the Garda simply takes and destroys the phone on the spot. No lengthy tv campaign needed!


 Being on the phone while driving a car is dangerous. Whether or not you are holding the phone is irrelevant. Having a conversation with someone who is not in the car with you is what is distracting, not what's in your hand otherwise eating a bar of chocolate or smoking or picking your nose should also be banned. 
Japan has banned the use of phones while driving, as have other countries. We should do the same. Until then we should stop with the PR exercise of banning holding a phone while driving.


----------



## W200 (31 Mar 2017)

Purple said:


> Whether or not you are holding the phone is irrelevant. Having a conversation with someone who is *not* in the car with you is what is distracting.



Wonder what the reason for that is or has it actually been proven . You are essentially speaking to someone you cannot see just as a taxi driver might hold a conversation with someone sitting directly behind them . I am not convinced of the danger associated with such behaviour .
On the other hand the danger of drinking coffee or tea while driving are very obvious . The consequences of dropping a cup of hot coffee on ones lap could be dramatic  !!.


----------



## Leper (31 Mar 2017)

Exactly W200, we've all courted bad driving habits and we think that we are in total control and think we cannot possibily be a danger to other road users and ourselves.  We have to start somewhere and perhaps now is the time? 

Just a question for any road user:- Would you like other road users to behave 100% the way you do? If the answer is "No" - then start improving your performance and lead by example.


----------



## Purple (31 Mar 2017)

W200 said:


> Wonder what the reason for that is or has it actually been proven . You are essentially speaking to someone you cannot see just as a taxi driver might hold a conversation with someone sitting directly behind them . I am not convinced of the danger associated with such behaviour .


No, the danger is from having a conversation with someone who is not in the same vehicle as you. Whether you are holding the phone or not is irrelevant. See here for details.


----------



## W200 (1 Apr 2017)

Purple said:


> See here for details.



Very interesting study and really surprising .


----------



## Leper (2 Apr 2017)

Walking my dog from Cork's Douglas Road this week:- Before the roundabout for Douglas Village there is a junction where traffic from Well Road and a feeder road from the South Ring Road meet traffic from and to the city on Douglas Road.   Heavy traffic from Douglas is emerging to for city centre. There is a large Yellow Box there.

Lights are red on Well Road, but Dumb-Dumb edges forward onto the Yellow Box to turn left and manages to block two lanes into Douglas as his route is full of traffic. Seconds later Dopey from the feeder road enters the Yellow Box to turn right and blocks the two lanes heading out of Douglas.  It didn't stop there; Crazy Guy going straight into Douglas from Douglas Road now creeps forward. Hey Presto! These three fools are now blocking four busy roads simultaneously and the three are still in the Yellow Box. Now nobody could drive forward even on the green lights.  There was a couple of changes of lights before any exit was clear and build up of traffic on three roads because of the stupidity of three "well heeled" drivers.

Us good drivers know what happened here.  The three fools (I bet) will swear that they did nothing wrong and are probably driving the same way every day. Nobody was hurt. There were build ups of traffic in all directions which would have caused agitation to rules-obeying motorists. The incidence was not unusual as it happens in one way or another every hour there. . . . . and all because three stupid motorists could not wait 60 seconds.


----------



## Leo (3 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> Lights are red on Well Road, but Dumb-Dumb edges forward onto the Yellow Box...



Remember shortly after the Luas was launched and the operators brought in a team to review why there were so many accidents compared to other tram systems. They published the findings that Irish drivers ignore red lights and yellow boxes. That was ~12 years ago now, things have only gotten worse.


----------



## PMU (3 Apr 2017)

Leo said:


> Remember shortly after the Luas was launched and the operators brought in a team to review why there were so many accidents compared to other tram systems. They published the findings that Irish drivers ignore red lights and yellow boxes. That was ~12 years ago now, things have only gotten worse.


   Luas have put some videos on YouTube showing car drivers ignoring red lights. Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1ZjuK1JW-s.


----------



## Firefly (3 Apr 2017)

PMU said:


> Luas have put some videos on YouTube showing car drivers ignoring red lights. Please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1ZjuK1JW-s.



I was only thinking yesterday about getting a dashcam. Anyone know if footage can be used in a court case?


----------



## Leo (3 Apr 2017)

Firefly said:


> I was only thinking yesterday about getting a dashcam. Anyone know if footage can be used in a court case?



I got one as insurance companies may look at footage to assign blame, and at least knowing video evidence exists might dissuade the other party from being too fanciful in their recollection of events. Take a look at the 'Video Recordings' section here.


----------



## Leper (4 Apr 2017)

I don't know if Dash-Cams evidence can be used in court, but I think I'll get one for our car. My brother has two dash-cams, one pointed straight ahead and the other pointed back at the driver's side window and has sound included. I should point out the brother is a bit of a character and has taken to cyclists like the users of a brothel to a dose of the clap. He sees it as a kind of levelling the odds against cyclists who wear helmet-cams. A tap on his car window is an appearance on his home movies addiction for some unsuspecting cyclist and any stupid motorist in front of him. After seeing some recorded evidence from both cams, I think the brother would need to drive more carefully too.


----------



## Gerry Canning (5 Apr 2017)

Compared to the past we have massively reduced the carnage on our roads . 
Generally drivers are nowadays much  more clued in than they were in  the past  and roads are better engineered for safety .

could always be better though.


----------



## Purple (6 Apr 2017)

Gerry Canning said:


> Compared to the past we have massively reduced the carnage on our roads .
> Generally drivers are nowadays much  more clued in than they were in  the past  and roads are better engineered for safety .
> 
> could always be better though.


I agree. I started cycling through Dublin last year after not doing so for about 15 years. The difference is remarkable; motorists are now much more considerate and aware, roads are generally better and there are cycle paths in place.
Road deaths have been cut by almost two thirds since 1997.
If we go back to 1972 there were 620 people killed on the roads. The population then was just over 3 million. The population now is 4.75 million. If the per capita figures had stayed the same we'd have 972 people killed each year on the roads now or, looking at it another way, we have reduced the per capita deaths by just over 80%. If we look at the deaths per kilometer traveled they are much better again since car ownership and usage are now much higher.  
Road deaths per kilometer (or mile) traveled in the USA are more than twice as high as here. Given how rampant drink driving is in the USA I'd say that's a major factor.


----------



## Leo (6 Apr 2017)

Gerry Canning said:


> Compared to the past we have massively reduced the carnage on our roads .
> Generally drivers are nowadays much  more clued in than they were in  the past  and roads are better engineered for safety .



The increased motorway infrastructure has made a big difference, with collisions three times more likely on rural national roads for a given distance traveled. 

Also car safety features have improved significantly as well. What new car doesn't come with a proliferation of air bags, and features like improved crumple zones, emergency brake assist, lane departure & blind spot warnings, etc.. 

I also wonder whether the increased volume of traffic has had an affect also. Particularly in the busy commuter areas, with increased grid-lock leading to lower speeds.


----------



## Purple (6 Apr 2017)

Leo said:


> I also wonder whether the increased volume of traffic has had an affect also. Particularly in the busy commuter areas, with increased grid-lock leading to lower speeds.


The amount of cars in Dublin City center has not increased  over the last 20 years (and have decreased in the last 10) because of the M50, more people cycling and walking and more people taking the bus, but the road deaths in Dublin have been reduced greatly. 
See [broken link removed] for details on travel patterns for the city center.


----------



## Leo (6 Apr 2017)

Purple said:


> The amount of cars in Dublin City center has not increased  over the last 20 years (and have decreased in the last 10) because of the M50, more people cycling and walking and more people taking the bus, but the road deaths in Dublin have been reduced greatly.



True, but from 1991 to 2001 volumes of morning peak hour trips almost trebled, and from 1994 to 2002 average speeds dropped from 16.71 to 11.58km/h.


----------



## Firefly (5 May 2017)

Well....some morning around Cork city this morning. Went out home last night so a different route to work so maybe I was more aware, but some eejits on the roads! All bumper to bumper with lots of under-taking going on. People are tearing it to no end. As much as I give out about paying my TV license fee, I don't know what I would do without Lyric!


----------



## Purple (5 May 2017)

Firefly said:


> Well....some morning around Cork city this morning. Went out home last night so a different route to work so maybe I was more aware, but some eejits on the roads! All bumper to bumper with lots of under-taking going on. People are tearing it to no end. As much as I give out about paying my TV license fee, I don't know what I would do without Lyric!


Considering how bolshie Cork people are generally it must be an absolute nightmare driving down there. You have my sympathies. No wonder the normal ones leave!


----------



## Firefly (5 May 2017)

Purple said:


> Considering how bolshie Cork people are generally it must be an absolute nightmare driving down there. You have my sympathies. No wonder the normal ones leave!



I'm beginning to wonder alright...I lived Dublin for about 10 years and thought I'd seen in all!


----------



## cremeegg (5 May 2017)

Firefly said:


> As much as I give out about paying my TV license fee, I don't know what I would do without Lyric!



My kids ask why I listen to Lyric, I'm not known for an appreciation of classical music. But it can be a lifesaver.

During the week I turned on the radio in the car. Joe was talking to some people who went to a concert and had a bad view because other people were dancing. Its enough to make anyone undertake, just to improve the view. 

Newstalk had a piece on second careers for retired racehorses. Ahhh!

Lyric saved me.


----------



## Purple (5 May 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Newstalk had a piece on second careers for retired racehorses. Ahhh!


That reminds me of the one about the horse and the chicken who walked into a bar. Tha barman said "sorry, no clichéd jokes allowed". The chicken turned to the horse and said, "It's okay, I know another place across the road".


----------



## Firefly (5 May 2017)

cremeegg said:


> My kids ask why I listen to Lyric, I'm not known for an appreciation of classical music.



Ditto. I don't know what I'm listening to half of the time but it's just "nice". I just avoid it on Sunday mornings as it's full on church music!


----------



## Leper (6 May 2017)

Purple said:


> That reminds me of the one about the horse and the chicken who walked into a bar. Tha barman said "sorry, no clichéd jokes allowed". The chicken turned to the horse and said, "It's okay, I know another place across the road".



I don't get it.  I'm from Cork.  Perhaps you can tell it a little slower?


----------



## Leper (6 May 2017)

On Lyric, Marty-in-the-Morning.  Great show! I don't know too much about classical music either, but Marty knows less.  But, he is great! Dreadful, corny jokes, but they're the best. He makes me laugh and I hope he keeps doing what he is doing for years to come.


----------

