# Bidding - how low can you go?



## Voda (25 Sep 2006)

I am wondering, when bidding on a property, how low should you go if you are the opening bid? We are looking at a peroperty for €385k, so reckon an opening bid of €375k is fair. Is there some unwritten rule about this though?


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## Howitzer (25 Sep 2006)

Show some balls. Bid 317.5K and gauge the reaction.


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## liteweight (25 Sep 2006)

Howitzer said:


> Show some balls. Bid 317.5K and gauge the reaction.



If you show them your balls, they'll throw you out, or have you arrested!

The auctioneer usually asks the bidding to start at a certain price. If no takers he'll go down a tad. In any event, he will not put the house on the market until the vendor's reserve is reached.


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## Howitzer (25 Sep 2006)

I don't think the OP is referring to an auction, but a regular estate agent orientated jobbie. 

It's a buyers market and the seller may be looking to sell quickly. You'll feel a bit of a chump if you bid 375K and then the neighbours sell theirs for 317 in a months time.


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## liteweight (25 Sep 2006)

Very true. Go as low as 317.5K and let it roll on from there.


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## mprsv1000 (25 Sep 2006)

Bid low they can only say no!
(ah the poet comming out in me)
Seriously I have been researching the market recently and things do seem to be slowing down, although I doubt any EA will admit to that. If EA keeps upping the price via another bidder and you have suspicions drop a note into the seller (assuming they live in the house you are bidding on) failing that go into the E.A and ask them to put the offer to the vendor there and then in front of you( try you luck and ask them to put the call on speaker phone) remember you are the one parting with the cash and its their job to get as much as they can form you for their client (and themselves). Also worth rembering the stamp duty limit of 381,000!!!
Best of luck.
keep us posted on how it goes.


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## Tetragon (10 Dec 2008)

I've seen a house that I'm interested in. It was put on the market for €325k in August. They had one offer of €285 in September but purchaser pulled out of negotiations because he couldn't put the cash together. There have been no further offers on the place. I was thinking of making an initial offer of €200k.

Is this a good or a bad idea? I couldn't afford to go more than €250k but I live in the hope of maybe getting it for €220 or €230k.

Advice appreciated.


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## Bronte (10 Dec 2008)

There is nothing stopping anyone bidding as low as they want for a property.  The seller can only say no.  You never know, you might get lucky and have your bid accepted but you won't know that until you bid.  

If you're trying to guess a price, I believe 20% under asking is where we are at.  If it was me however I'd bid as low as I thought the property was worth to me and which I could afford.  That is something one cannot quantify for someone else.


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## Cabaiste (10 Dec 2008)

Evaluate what you think the house is worth and base your bid on this. This should be the absolute max that you will bid so you really want your first bid to be a good bit below this to allow room for negotiation.

For my money, basing your offer on some percentage or factor of the asking price is nonsense.


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## Tetragon (10 Dec 2008)

Thanks for the replies .... I'll stick in a bid and see what happens.


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## Slaphead (10 Dec 2008)

Tetragon said:


> Thanks for the replies .... I'll stick in a bid and see what happens.



Keep us updated, be nice to have a live report, ill be heading down this road straight after xmas.
House i liked for 300k last yr is now advertised at 220K.
Am thinking of 180k bid, but it'll be in january.


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## Tetragon (10 Dec 2008)

I put in a bid but was told that it wouldn't even be considered. Too low. I upped my bid and am now waiting to see what the vendors will say. Vendors live abroad so communication may be slow. Auctioneer obviously hasn't heard of email! 

Vendors aren't in need of cash/a sale so they aren't inclined to negotiate (I'm led to believe). I'll know when the auctioneer gets back.


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## Bronte (12 Dec 2008)

Tetragon said:


> I put in a bid but was told that it wouldn't even be considered. Too low. I upped my bid and am now waiting to see what the vendors will say. Vendors live abroad so communication may be slow. Auctioneer obviously hasn't heard of email!
> 
> Vendors aren't in need of cash/a sale so they aren't inclined to negotiate (I'm led to believe). I'll know when the auctioneer gets back.


  You upped too soon, slowly slowly...  Remember if they are not in need of a sale they may not sell for a lot less than the asking.


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## VOR (12 Dec 2008)

The estate agent is duty bound to make the vendor aware of all offers. 

Go back to the EA and say you have revised down your offer based on the general market trends and the findings of your survey.
1) Find as many comparable CHEAPER houses in the general area as you can and give them to the EA. 
2)If you have a friend who's an engineer ask them to do a once over for you. They may charge you a small fee but it willl be worth it if you really want this house. Role out as many negatives as you can. I suggest 15 to 20. You can start the list with the garden size, room size, age of kitchen, distance to work/school etc. Then pop in as many as the engineer can give you. The more faults the better.

When the EA knows comparable houses in the area are cheaper and that there are faults (possibly structural which need repair) with the property, he/she might advise the vendor to accept less.


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## MrMan (12 Dec 2008)

> 2)If you have a friend who's an engineer ask them to do a once over for you. They may charge you a small fee but it willl be worth it if you really want this house. Role out as many negatives as you can. I suggest 15 to 20. You can start the list with the garden size, room size, age of kitchen, distance to work/school etc. Then pop in as many as the engineer can give you. The more faults the better.



This would beg the question why do you want it if the garden is too small, rooms are too small, too far from work or school, any EA should recognise you as the bluffer that you are in this respect. I would retort that it is after all a second hand house and any need for improvement has been factored in already to the price but by all means factor in the cost of making improvements before entering a bid, either way if it is way off no amount of 'faults' will change a vendors mind.



> When the EA knows comparable houses in the area are cheaper and that there are faults (possibly structural which need repair) with the property, he/she might advise the vendor to accept less.



The EA should already know the comparables in the area as they have valued the property so it wont be news to them. If there are legitimate structural faults in the property the vendor will take it into account but they must be real issues, and if structurally there are alot of faults it should make the purchaser look elsewhere if anything.


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## Slaphead (12 Dec 2008)

Good idea re list:
Ive done one up for a house im intrested in, nice house, nice area but it's totally rundown after being let for 5 yrs. 220K advertised price, im thinking of offering 170, spending 35-40 on renovations.

*Things wrong with house: why 170k is fair!*
  1)Leaking bathroom upstairs, needs to be gutted and redone.
  2)Leaking showerroom upstairs, needs to be gutted and redone.
  3)Repair kitchen ceiling
  4)Repair living room ceiling
  5)Crack in bedroom window
  6)Vermin problem, mousetraps noted 
  7)Large dog next door, generally unkept rear gardens to left
  8)Insulation/energy rating suspect, need to insulate
  9)No solar heating
  10)Total new kitchen, plumbing, electrics, needs to be gutted and redone.
  11)Total new kitchen appliances
  12)Total new carpets and floors
  13)Total new alarm system
  14)Installation of living room stove
  15)Redoing of utility room
  16)Paint exterior???
  17)Clean roof & drains???
  18)No energy rating on house???
  19)No side gate
  20)No suitable back wall on either side.
  21)Bank will only loan us what the house is worth, ie 170, they wont loan for to do it up. That money will have to be loaned from other sources.


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## Sherman (12 Dec 2008)

Slaphead said:


> Good idea re list:
> Ive done one up for a house im intrested in, nice house, nice area but it's totally rundown after being let for 5 yrs. 220K advertised price, im thinking of offering 170, spending 35-40 on renovations.
> 
> *Things wrong with house: why 170k is fair!*
> ...


While a lot of these things would be nice to have, the vendor can't be expected to pay for the likes of redecoration, new appliances, new alarm system and cleaning drains.  Large dog living next door?! Seriously.


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## Slaphead (12 Dec 2008)

Sherman said:


> While a lot of these things would be nice to have, the vendor can't be expected to pay for the likes of redecoration, new appliances, new alarm system and cleaning drains.  Large dog living next door?! Seriously.



Im well aware of that but normally a seller can justify a price with lots of extras, like an alarm, ovens are normally sold with house etc.
Points 1-6, 8, 10, 11(well partly, over, firdge, freezer, etc), 12, 13, 16, 17 are all things that will have to be sorted either by the seller or the buyer.
The rest are all things that i'd personally like to get done and had they allready been done would have coaxed me to pay more for the house. A large noisy dog nextdoor in a back garden that looked like Steptoe & Son's is definitely a put off imo. He cant fix it perhaps but it does bring down the price of the house. (Although i've been told that the neighbours are fine, just messy out the back but the landlord can prove this or know that i know this)!


Fair?


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## Sherman (12 Dec 2008)

By all means try it - you're in a strong position in this market so it's worth a shot


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## Slaphead (12 Dec 2008)

Sherman said:


> By all means try it - you're in a strong position in this market so it's worth a shot



Obviously everything above wont be on my list, the house is valued fairly @ 220k had it been in good condition. As it is it's going to take 40k of renovations so i reckon a €170k bid is fair. 
Im considering handing in a written bid, one through the letter box (house is unoccupied) and one in the EA's hand, outlining that both have gotten copies and why €170 is a fair bid seeing as it's going to cost me €210-€220 either way.


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## MrMan (12 Dec 2008)

You say the bank will only loan what its worth (170k) just don't forget thats your valuation based on a string of unnecessary costs. I would say that if you do buy the house and attempt to bring it to market quality i.e no extras then you will probably spend about €20/25k on improvements. Its amazing the costs people see when valuing down a property. If you are going to submit a list of what is faulty with the house I suggest you strip it back to what would be the standard requirments.


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## raven (12 Dec 2008)

I'd strongly advise being prepared to walk away if you don't get it at your price. Give it a few weeks and then engage again.

The best advice is to be patient. There's plenty of "dream houses" out there.


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## MrMan (12 Dec 2008)

> There's plenty of "dream houses" out there.



Yep even ones with 21 faults.


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## Slaphead (12 Dec 2008)

MrMan said:


> You say the bank will only loan what its worth (170k) just don't forget thats your valuation based on a string of unnecessary costs. I would say that if you do buy the house and attempt to bring it to market quality i.e no extras then you will probably spend about €20/25k on improvements. Its amazing the costs people see when valuing down a property. If you are going to submit a list of what is faulty with the house I suggest you strip it back to what would be the standard requirments.



Well my costs could go up as far as 50k, ive been advised to add 20% to my estimate(40k =8k) + another 20% on that for eventualities (9.6k) giving me a total of 57.6k i should be prepared to pay on it.
If i go the house exactly as i want it for an end total of 230k id be happy. the more i think about it 170k is what im prepared to pay for it.
Ill think about it over xmas.


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## Slaphead (12 Dec 2008)

MrMan said:


> Yep even ones with 21 faults.



I've allready exlained this, roughly half of the 21 are minor faults or musings on my behalf, the rest are serious and expensive faults that would have to be fixed.


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## Tetragon (12 Dec 2008)

Bronte said:


> You upped too soon, slowly slowly...  Remember if they are not in need of a sale they may not sell for a lot less than the asking.




When I rang the auctioneer with my offer he reacted with stunned silence. He told me that the vendors wouldn't/weren't prepared to accept such an offer. I told him that my uppermost limit was €30k/€40k more but that was it.

There would still be a €55k gap between what they were prepared to sell for and my newly revised offer. The advertised sale price is €35k higher than that again.

The difficulty is that I'm trying to purchase in an area where property has always been naturally high and where quality location is at a premium. The vendors are not Irish and they aren't in any rush to sell. My inquiries lead me to believe that they would hold onto the property and keep it vacant in the long term if they don't achieve their asking price.

A buyer offered €10k less than what they were prepared to accept and the offer wasn't accepted. 

To be honest, my initial offer was quite cheeky given the property I was bidding on and I would consider myself very lucky to get it at my new bid offer. Beyond that I couldn't afford it. Fingers crossed.

(*Bronte* - If I didn't up my offer .....  my hopes of purchasing this particular property were finished)


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## Neil_Ireland (13 Dec 2008)

I viewed a property earlier on in the year, it was advertised at 275k, I liked the house so I put in an offer of 235k, the EA asked me was I taking the pi$$ and that I was way off the mark, he also said he would not be in a position to show me any other properties if I was going to make offers like that again 

Needless to say I didn't buy.


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## Tetragon (13 Dec 2008)

Hopefully my 'revised' offer will be taken seriously. 

I started quite low so my current offer would be a reasonable and affordable result for me.

Time will tell!


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## muno (13 Dec 2008)

We are in the same boat..we are viewing a house next week, on at 300k....bank will loan us 240k....we have a house to sell.....it has an extension and huge garden...area is okish....Were thinking of offering 240...60k under asking...will we be laughed at ??


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## Sherman (13 Dec 2008)

If your first bid is at the limit of what the bank will give you, you're going to have no room to make an increased bid.  Start lower than that to give yourself some negotiating room.


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## Billo (13 Dec 2008)

muno said:


> We are in the same boat..we are viewing a house next week, on at 300k....bank will loan us 240k....we have a house to sell.....it has an extension and huge garden...area is okish....Were thinking of offering 240...60k under asking...will we be laughed at ??



Will you be accepting offers of 20% under the asking price for your own house, or will you laugh at them ?


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## Tetragon (13 Dec 2008)

muno said:


> We are in the same boat..we are viewing a house next week, on at 300k....bank will loan us 240k....we have a house to sell.....it has an extension and huge garden...area is okish....Were thinking of offering 240...60k under asking...will we be laughed at ??



My initial bid was low but allowed me enough room to increase my offer. I didn't want to kill my chances by offering my mortgage limit. The bank may loan you 240k but it you don't have to borrow then you shouldn't. 

Make the offer ..... if they laugh .... so what? up the offer then. My guy didn't laugh ... his silence said it all. Start low .... you can go up .. start high ... you can't go down.


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## PaulyB63 (16 Dec 2008)

Sorry but EAs out there need to get a grip.... There is a worldwide financial crisis never before seen and this WILL be reflected in the prices sooner rather then later.... The EAs I've been dealing with keep going on about current market value yadda yadda yadda... This is total BS as there IS NO MARKET at the moment. 

To illustrate this, the latest borrowing figures were released recently for October, where €26,000,000 was borrowed in the mortgage market country wide. In the same period (Ocotber 2007), €700,000,000 was borrowed!!! 

I started a thread recently wondering was I mad to be offering about 33% less then what was being asked for a house where the EA basically laughed and stated that her market area (Westport, Co. Mayo) would in no way be affected like the rest of the country and that my offer was laughable etc. etc. That house is 2.5 years waiting to sell at "current market value"... We have since revised our offer DOWN! Oh yeah... And since making that offer, the EA in question is on a travelling leave for the next "number of months" from her invincible firm!!

This market will get a lot worse before it stabilises IMHO.... Like the banks, it's the EAs who've fueled this whole mess our country is now in.... Rant over....!!





Neil_Ireland said:


> I viewed a property earlier on in the year, it was advertised at 275k, I liked the house so I put in an offer of 235k, the EA asked me was I taking the pi$$ and that I was way off the mark, he also said he would not be in a position to show me any other properties if I was going to make offers like that again
> 
> Needless to say I didn't buy.


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## Slaphead (16 Dec 2008)

PaulyB63 said:


> To illustrate this, the latest borrowing figures were released recently for October, where €26,000,000 was borrowed in the mortgage market country wide. In the same period (Ocotber 2007), €700,000,000 was borrowed!!!



Amazing figure! Have you a source for it?
I'm looking in Wexford and they have the same excuses, Wexford never took off in the boom yrs and the prices wont go down that much.
The majority of asking prices are still laughably high, saw a crappy 3 bed in a crappy estate go on sale recently for €298K. When i know a mate of mine recently sold a much nicer and bigger 3 bedded in a much nicer estate for €210k.


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## PaulyB63 (16 Dec 2008)

I worded it incorrectly but the message is much the same. I was quoting from memory from the Examiner dated Nov 29th. The figure of €26m is accurate for November 2008. The Actual October figures from 2007 aren't accurately listed but the previous three months July/August/September '08 showed lending of €700m..... The article then goes on to state that at the peak of mortgage lending that *€2,000,000,000* was not unusual *PER MONTH*!! Therefore the previous October could have been even higher then I stated in my last post (Speculation of course!)

Here's the article!

[broken link removed]


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## MrMan (17 Dec 2008)

> Sorry but EAs out there need to get a grip.... There is a worldwide financial crisis never before seen and this WILL be reflected in the prices sooner rather then later.... The EAs I've been dealing with keep going on about current market value yadda yadda yadda... This is total BS as there IS NO MARKET at the moment.



Sorry to burst your bubble but you may be amazed to know that EA's work for the vendor who as it turns out has the final say on the 'market value' and the accepted sale price. sometimes we deal with very difficult people, but if we take on a property and the vendor will not accept our valuation we are obliged to try and sell to that valuation or walk away from the property. What a lot of EA's will do is take it on at the vendors inflated value and eventually talk them down to the realistic value, obviously it works best if you can do this from the outset, but as you can see from AAM people have very forthright opinions when it comes to pricing houses.




> We have since revised our offer DOWN! Oh yeah... And since making that offer, the EA in question is on a travelling leave for the next "number of months" from her invincible firm!!



He 'basically' laughed so I take it he didn't actually laugh and now that his job is in jeopardy who find it amusing or somewhat like justice being done, nice piece of work you are.




> This market will get a lot worse before it stabilises IMHO.... Like the banks, it's the EAs who've fueled this whole mess our country is now in.... Rant over....!!



At least you were good enough to recognise that it was a *rant *you were having;

*Rant*: High-sounding language, without importance or dignity of thought; boisterous, empty declamation


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## PaulyB63 (17 Dec 2008)

Yes, I was laughed at. I offered what I believed to be the value of the property, which is on the market for 2 and a half years remember at the same level, and I was dismissed out of hand and told when I clarified my offer a week ago that the EA would NOT be contacting the vendor to let them know. In my, and many other peoples opinions, this is pure arrogance. 

In light of global events of the last few days, I have revised my offer down but will not be contacting the Estate Agents in question until next year.

With regard to the leave of the person in question, I do not see it as justice being done. I am not that kind of person. I see it as reality setting in. It is happening in every trade in the country. Every single area of employment is being squeezed. Especially in sales, whether it be Cars, houses or retail etc. I gain no satisfaction, as you put it, from this. 

As far as market value is concerned. The market value is dictated by the current closing sale prices of houses. *FULL STOP*. Not what the buyers will pay or the vendors want but what's finally agreed... On the basis of the mortage figures for October this year, those closing sales are few, very few and far between. In essence what sellers want is a long way from catching up with what buyers and the "market" will pay... If the vendors want what they're asking for, then they will have to wait for the next upswing which could be anywhere from 3 - 10 years away.

I was having a rant as I understood the word rant. I didn't define it in the dictionary prior to describing my post and I definitely do not think that my "rant" was boisterous, empty declamation! 

Sorry if I've offended you....


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## MrMan (17 Dec 2008)

> I gain no satisfaction, as you put it, from this



'And since making that offer, the EA in question is on a travelling leave for the next "number of months" from her invincible firm!!'

That line just came across as being smug.


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## PaulyB63 (17 Dec 2008)

I see what you mean but it wasn't my intention to come across that way... I was intending to illustrate the reality of the situation we all find ourselves in... I was/am pretty p*ssed off at how I was treated though so perhaps that shone through in that line...! Again though, not intended to be smug... I'll re-read before I post anything again!


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## Gordanus (17 Dec 2008)

Tetragon said:


> I told him that my uppermost limit was €30k/€40k more but that was it.



I hope this wasn't your real upper limit.  Never tell an EA what your max is otherwise he'll hold out till you offer it! Don't forget, he's not working for you but for the vendor, to get them the best possible price.......as you would want, if you were selling.


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## Slaphead (17 Dec 2008)

MrMan said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble but you may be amazed to know that EA's work for the vendor who as it turns out has the final say on the 'market value' and the accepted sale price. sometimes we deal with very difficult people, but if we take on a property and the vendor will not accept our valuation we are obliged to try and sell to that valuation or walk away from the property. What a lot of EA's will do is take it on at the vendors inflated value and eventually talk them down to the realistic value, obviously it works best if you can do this from the outset, but as you can see from AAM people have very forthright opinions when it comes to pricing houses.


True of course, it's not the allways the EA advising the high price but the sellers clutching to a dream. 
When my mate sold for 210 the Ea advised him that that was what it was worth but they could advertise it for much more and eventually settle for that, or go for 210 and sell quick. They went for the quick option and it sold before it was advertised through the EA's contacts having sold a property near it before.


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## Gordanus (10 Jan 2009)

Found this on another forum:

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news...ad-to-nowhere/

Michael Grehan, MD, Sherry FitzGerald




"It's exceptionally difficult to call the bottom of any market, but particularly so in property. You can only do it with hindsight. The astute buyer now has it all their own way because they can bargain. The investors have gone and people can negotiate on price – that was unheard of even a year ago. *****In many cases, the difference between original asking price and final selling price is 50%.**** Buyers now have sellers where they want them. The buying opportunity of a lifetime presents itself in 2009. Of course there is a herd mentality – 'no-one else is buying so perhaps I shouldn't either'. But I don't think Irish people are going to stop wanting their own homes."


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## foghorn (10 Jan 2009)

Gordanus said:


> Found this on another forum:
> 
> http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news...ad-to-nowhere/
> 
> ...


 
It might be easier to take someone from Sherry Fitzgerald remotely seriously if they had ever said it was *not* a good time to buy. I can imagine them sitting in the middle of a post-holocaust wasteland, chirpily advising irradiated ghouls that now is the best time to buy.


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## Gordanus (10 Jan 2009)

Gordanus said:


> *****In many cases, the difference between original asking price and final selling price is 50%.****




was the bit I was trying to highlight, as relevant to this thread.


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## DerKaiser (10 Jan 2009)

foghorn said:


> It might be easier to take someone from Sherry Fitzgerald remotely seriously if they had ever said it was *not* a good time to buy. I can imagine them sitting in the middle of a post-holocaust wasteland, chirpily advising irradiated ghouls that now is the best time to buy.


Funnily enough you're better off listening to them now than you would have been any time in the past 5 years!


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## jimbobman (11 Jan 2009)

always do the opposite of whay they say


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