# Judgment Mortgage



## loulou117

4yrs ago a creditor got a judgment mortgage against my property, i now nolonger deal with that creditor as they have sold my debt to another company a few years ago and i am still currently servicing this debt with the new company.

Surely the judgment mortgage is not valid or should be removed??? the creditor that lodged it then, i nolonger deal with them and they are also nolonger in business.?? Any advice,pls..


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## Time

Are they a registered company or an individual? Is that company still in existence on the company register?


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## loulou117

*re: judgment mortage*

firstly the creditor "applicant" who made the judgment mortgage does not own my debt anymore, they sold it. They are a company and currently on the cro they are in receivership although i have been told they nlonger do business, my point is: they have nothing to do with my debt anymore the debt is with someone else and is being serviced and this company is nolonger "trading".

I understand the judgment will be removed when the loan is discharged but the original creditor nolonger exists and its the "applicant"/creditor that lodged the judgment that must remove the judgement and secondly, my debt is now managed by another company and is being serviced.

So does it not make this judgment property void?  because that debt nolonger belongs to them, its being claimed/recovered by another company...


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## Time

It does not matter if they are trading or not. If they still legally exist they have a valid JM. 

Have you anything in writing to say this other crowd actually own the debt? It would be more usual for them to be acting on behalf of the original creditor. The selling of debts requires a notice of assignment and these are unheard of in Ireland.


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## loulou117

Yes, i did receive a "notice of assignment", do you know what this means? and i did receive a letter saying, this new company now legally manages all documents etc. related to my debt...

Although the original company maybe still in existance, they don't manage/own my debt anymore? how does this make them entitled to retain a judgment on my property??

Does the judgment mortgage have to be legally transferred to the new company?


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## Kev

loulou117 said:


> Yes, i did receive a "notice of assignment", do you know what this means? and i did receive a letter saying, this new company now legally manages all documents etc. related to my debt...
> 
> Although the original company maybe still in existance, they don't manage/own my debt anymore? how does this make them entitled to retain a judgment on my property??
> 
> Does the judgment mortgage have to be legally transferred to the new company?



What does the 'notice of assignment' exactly say, also what does the letter say as well.  You do not have to give the name of the company just the contents of what they are saying to you.


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## loulou117

The letter from the old creditor says, "Notice of Assignment", account details, This letter is to inform you that, with immediate effect your account has been assined to "....", Please note all details of all agreements and promises have been transferred also.  In accordance with the aforementioned assignment "...." now holds all legal rights authorities and obligations to same.

Then i got the below from the new company:

The letter says, "Reassignment Notice" , account details outlined and then the new companies name has been appointmentn by "...." as their asset manager to mannage your account on their behalf.  Previously your account was owned and managed by "...." and then to contact them (this letter is from 2yrs ago).

No mention of a Judgment Mortgage on either and i confirmed from the land registry today the judgment mortgage is still in the old creditors name...


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## mf1

When you clear the debt, the new company can lodge a satisfaction with a copy of the Notice of Assignment. That will be sufficient. The Judgment Mortgage will remain attached  to the property until then. 

mf


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## Kev

mf1 said:


> When you clear the debt, the new company can lodge a satisfaction with a copy of the Notice of Assignment. That will be sufficient. The Judgment Mortgage will remain attached  to the property until then.
> 
> mf



I am not sure about this,  but I thought when a charge is placed on a property by court then the new collector has to back to court to get it transferred to them and this will cost them a fee. 

Would it be in the best interest for the OP to send a freedom of Information request to the new collector to see if they have complied with the rules ie that they have been given the authority by a judge to collect the debt in accordance with  the original judgement. 

[broken link removed]


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## loulou117

yes kev your absolutely right, the new collector should have a judgment transferred in their name and have gone about it in the correct way.  I have contacted their offices today requesting this information as they won't answer my emails.  If no reply i will presue it under the FOI Act.

But i still think the judgment mortgage should be void as i nolonger deal with the old company and they nolonger own my debt......

This new company needs to show that the judgment mortgage is now legally their entitlment.


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## mf1

I disagree with both kev and loulou. 

This is all about the original debt and, ignoring that, and, focussing only on the assignee of the debt, and, the ins and outs of who is entitled to what, will not change the liability of the debtor. 

The judgment mortgage is not void.   End of. 

mf


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## loulou117

mf1, your right the judgment mortgage is not void, i do understand that.  My concern is the original debt is nolonger with the original creditor (applicant who lodged the jm), the original debt is currently being serviced and is with a new creditor.

How can a company (i.e.old creditor) continue to have a jm on my property, if they nolonger own the debt?

surely the jm should be trasferred legally into the new creditor name ?


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## Kev

loulou117 said:


> mf1, your right the judgment mortgage is not void, i do understand that.  My concern is the original debt is nolonger with the original creditor (applicant who lodged the jm), the original debt is currently being serviced and is with a new creditor.
> 
> How can a company (i.e.old creditor) continue to have a jm on my property, if they nolonger own the debt?
> 
> surely the jm should be trasferred legally into the new creditor name ?



As far as I am aware as it was Court Judgment it should have gone back to the court for it to be legally transferred into the new company's name  to collect the debt. 

Check the deeds of your home and see what company's name is on it now to collect the debt outstanding. Also check your credit reference agency and see what is on there as well.


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## loulou117

I rang the land registry and they have confirmed, that judgment is still attached to the property and its in the old creditors name!!!! 

this is my point, how can the old creditor be entitled to a judgment on my property and they nolonger own the debt.

I am in the process of finding out has the new creditor gone about obtaining/transferring the judgment mortgage into their name.


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## Time

Things will get very interesting if the old company is struck off the companies register and then legally ceases to exist.

It will become unenforceable as the other crowd won't be able to enforce it.


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## mf1

Can I ask something? Why does this matter? It seems like a  lot of energy being thrown into something that is of absolutely no consequence? The money is still owed. The property cannot be sold until the debt is cleared. So, why would anyone go to the trouble of removing the mortgage and then getting it put back in place? Who will [pay the costs of that? 

I genuinely cannot see what the difficulty is.   Is it a point of principle? Because they tend to be expensive and, more often, not what the issue is in any event. 

mf


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## mf1

Time said:


> Things will get very interesting if the old company is struck off the companies register and then legally ceases to exist.
> 
> It will become unenforceable as the other crowd won't be able to enforce it.



They're in receivership. 

mf


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## Time

And when struck off which will eventually happen?


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## Kev

mf1 said:


> Can I ask something? Why does this matter? It seems like a  lot of energy being thrown into something that is of absolutely no consequence? The money is still owed. The property cannot be sold until the debt is cleared. So, why would anyone go to the trouble of removing the mortgage and then getting it put back in place? Who will [pay the costs of that?
> 
> I genuinely cannot see what the difficulty is.   Is it a point of principle? Because they tend to be expensive and, more often, not what the issue is in any event.
> 
> mf



The OP is aware that the debt is still owed, but is concern about the company that has  taken it over ie was it done via the court and the court has given authority to the new collector to collect the debt.   

The OP should look at the original judgement and see what it say, if anything, about it being transferred to a new collector.   

Who is this collector, it could be a scam for all the OP knows.  

As far as I am aware it must go back to the court for the judgement to be transferred to the new owner.  The new company will have to pay a fee for this and perhaps that is what they are trying avoid.

The OP should contact the court direct to see what the position is regarding the transfer of the judgement on her property. Also she can do FOI request to the new company and see what they on her case.


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## loulou117

This is very important to me.... firstly, this is a secured debt now and wasn't originally and does not fall under the DNR when it comes into law shortly. Secondly, it is a matter of prinicpal, originally this loan was for a small amount (5k) and at that time i had a payment plan and the original creditor still went ahead and got a personal judgment against me and then lodged the judgment against the property, he went to every effort to black list me.

Back in 2010 when that original company sold my debt (clearly they knew their business was in trouble), he sold the debt and to date this loan is still being serviced with the new creditor.

Checking all the old documents from the oringinal creditor, there seems to be alot of inaccurcies, no dates on letters, different company name who debt was being assigned too and alot of photocopied papers that look suspicious.

But most importantly, it is important i find out has the new creditor transferred this judgment property in their name and have the proper steps being followed....so when the loan is discharged they the new creditor can apply to the land registry and remove this.

And it is a big deal to me, that there is a company that legally has a judgment against my property and they nolonger own my debt.

Also, the original creditor when lodging the judgment on the property the fee was 200e and he added it onto my debt, that doesn't sound right??

By the way, the original company went into receivership feb 2011, can anyone tell me, how long receivership can last for??

I will be ringing the District court in the morning and ask has the new creditor transfered the judgments and i will ask do they have legally the authority to continue to collect this debt, that might clear a few things up.


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## Time

They can add on the fees. This is the way things are done. 

At present the only body who can enforce the JM is the original holder. If the original holder ceases to exist the JM is unenforceable. As for removal that may have to wait until 12 years from the judgement have elapsed. 

For the new crowd to take over the JM they would have to go back to court and get the judgement in their name. 

This is an area where solicitors can be very woolly in their answers. I had a case where a solicitor told a blatant lie to protect her client when a JM was challenged by an innocent party where a conflict of interest occurred. The law society were less than happy with the whole situation and the solicitor in question was severely punished.


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## Kev

loulou117 said:


> This is very important to me.... firstly, this  is a secured debt now and wasn't originally and does not fall under the  DNR when it comes into law shortly. Secondly, it is a matter of  prinicpal, originally this loan was for a small amount (5k) and at that  time i had a payment plan and the original creditor still went ahead and  got a personal judgment against me and then lodged the judement against  the property, he went to every effort to black list me.
> 
> *When you signed for the loan did you get a credit agreement and you  obviously signed it from the original loan company,  also have you got it.
> 
> * Back in 2010 when that original company sold my debt (clearly they knew  their business was in trouble), he sold the debt and to date this loan  is still being serviced with the new creditor.
> 
> *You must check that the debt has been sold correctly ie through the court.*
> 
> Checking all the old documents from the oringinal creditor, there seems  to be alot of inaccurcies, no dates on letters, different company name  who debt was being assigned too and alot of photocopied papers that look  suspicious.
> 
> *From what you say they sold the debt on many times if there are different companies names on correspondence.
> 
> * But most importantly, it is important i find out has the new creditor  transferred this judgment property in their name and have the proper  steps being followed....so when the loan is discharged they the new  creditor can apply to the land registry and remove this.
> 
> *Have  you got a copy of the original judgement order, if so, there will be a  reference on it that you can use when you contact the court.  Write to  them and quote your reference on the judgement order asking for any  information they have on your judgment since it was taken against you,  also you can ask if it is legal for a company to transfer a judgement  before going to the court first and getting the relevant authority to do  the transfer. You can also do a request for any information to FOI act to the new company that now has your debt.*
> 
> And it is a big deal to me, that there is a company that legally has a  judgment against my property and they nolonger own my debt.
> 
> Also, the original creditor when lodging the judgment on the property  the fee was 200e and he added it onto my debt, that doesn't sound  right??
> 
> *They can do this when applying for a judgment but  not when selling it on to another company they must pay the relevant fee  not you. *
> 
> By the way, the original company went into receivership feb 2011, can  anyone tell me, how long receivership can last for??



Hope this helps.


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## loulou117

I do understand the jm can only be enforced by the original creditor, but i don't deal with them anymore so surely they shouldn't have any legal entitlement to my property and if i wanted to sell tomorrow let say, this judgment creates a problem.... 

I have no idea were the original loan documents are, this loan is going back to 2005 and the original company that got all these judgment against me is a debt collection company, very well know company. C*sh Fl*w Serv*ces..

I am definitely going to check with the courts tomorrow has the debt being passed on correctly.

I did get two documents from the original creditor, notice of the judgment mortage from the land registry and also, a document very suspicious looking the way it was printed out, from Irish Judgments, upper baggot street, has anyone heard of this company?? i will take a closer look at it for a reference.

Thankyou Kev, Time and Mf1 for all your valuable advice guys.x


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## Kev

If you got a judgment you should be on this link somewhere. 

http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/Webpages/HomePage?OpenDocument&l=en&p=055


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## Time

Circuit and district court stuff is not online.


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## loulou117

Thanks kev, put i have looked at the courts website and that link and it doesn't have the District Court there and i'm just looking at the judgment and it says: Court - District Court and it has the case no. which i will be giving them.


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## Kev

I an not sure about the procedure in Ireland regarding judgment procedure  
but I am surprised that you did not received notification from the court that the loan company were going to take a judgement out against you, if you got notification from the court of this pending judgement order being taken out for the outstanding loan then you could have challenged it.  

Perhaps Time  would advise if the court should have advised you regarding the pending  judgement.


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## Time

The OP would have received a summons to the district court. Failing to appear or lodge a defence would have resulted in a judgement being granted without further notice.


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## Kev

Time said:


> The OP would have received a summons to the district court. Failing to appear or lodge a defence would have resulted in a judgement being granted without further notice.



If she not received the summons for one reason or another then there would be a possibility of the judgement order being set aside


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## loulou117

Yes your right Time,i did receive a summons (1st Feb, 2008) from the debt collections solc with alot of dates mixed up, anyway after this i contacted the company and arranged a payment plan to avoid any court matters. 12th Feb, 2008, i received a letter from the debt collection's solc confirming they will accept my weekly offer annd they say in the letter "please note, that any payments received are subject to our clients securing Judgment. However, the said Judgment will not be enforced provided the agreed payments are strictly adhered to." 

So although i had a payment plan in place they went ahead a got a judgment at the time and then a couple of months later i receive the judgment from the land registry.

Also, i've just realised something, just before this xmas (sept 2012) i went into court re:this loan and i went through the process to get this loan varied (variation order) and at that time when i was initiating the process the clerk had no information on this new creditor that i've being paying for the last 2yrs, i never thought much of it at the time and i just issued this new creditor the relevant documents.

So, i'm going to go in the District Court in the morning and will discuss this with the clerk. Can a Judgment Mortgage be passed to another creditor and if so, does it have to be legally transferred through the courts? and has this being done?


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## Kev

You should have copied the court into your correspondence with your offer and payment plan. 
The solicitor was acting for the best interest of their clients and not you.  Have you still got a copy of that letter from the loan solicitors.  Keep all correspondence.  

Best of luck tomorrow.


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## loulou117

Thanks Kev, yes i found that original letter from their solc's and i have the original summons.  I'm sorry i didn't mention all of this to the judge when i had the opportunity before xmas, i had completely forgotten about the judgment mortgage, i just wasn't thinking straight, there is alot of mistakes i've made and going back then i was naive and didn't want to deal with loans and because they related to a business i thought they would die with the business, more fool me!!

Anyway, i will let you know what the clerk says regarding the judgment mortgage.
Thanks.


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## Time

See a solicitor is what you will be told.


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## loulou117

Actually i am in the process of getting a solicitor but its a couple of months away and your right maybe the clerk won't be able to help but i'm hoping he might have some knowledge of judgment mortgages and can they be transferred if not, i will be persuing this.

Thanks for your advice Time.


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## Time

I doubt a clerk would know much about them as their office is not involved in registering them. They are not allowed to give legal advice.

As regards your choice of solicitor make sure there are no conflicts of interest as many do work for debt collectors such as CFSL and may not want to advise you.


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## Kev

You could write the present owner advising them that you will cease payments if they do not let you have sight of all the paperwork from the court that give them the legal authority to collect the judgement money from you.


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## Time

A good way to go Kev. Put them to proof of the judgement.


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## loulou117

Interesting Kev....

Well i did hand in a letter today to the current creditor asking them about the judgment mortgage, so we'll see what they say back.

If i get no response i will under the FOI Act request this information.  

But, i will find out do they retain the jm and i will find out have they followed all of the relevant procedures in obtaining this jm and somewhere along the line i'm hoping someone has feck*d up because i'm hoping to get this jm removed, if possible!!!


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## Time

It is not FOI it is data protection act 1988 section 4. FOI only applies to the government.

Getting the JM removed will take a lot patience and a solicitor with the correct moral viewpoint.


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## loulou117

True very true, under the Data Protection Act i am entitled to this information.

I've alot of patience and i will get a result, whether its the result i'm expecting, we'll see....

FOI,

_*Part II – Access to Records*_

establishes a legal right for members of the public to access records held by public bodies (section 6)
With the District Court being a public body, i just maybe entitled to access all legal documents related to this debt.


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## Time

You can FOI the courts for their file, and use the DPA on the debt collector.


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## Bronte

MF1 has given very clear advice on here and it's being ignored, and he's in the business so I would trust that advice.

The OP has a judgment mortgage the company A that it was with 'sold' it to another company B. This was done by 'assignment'. It doesn't matter that in the land registry the judgment is in the name of company A as B has all the rights to it. It doesn't matter if company A no longer exists. OP still owes the money/

When or if the property is sold and the judgment morgage repaid than company B will inform the land registry it is satisified and they will show (with the deed of assignment) that it is they not A who are legally entitled to notify the land registry. (MF1 I hope I've put that correctly.)

In addition the OP is servicing the debt, debt she incurred, so what is the problem.  Eventually it will be paid off and bad records cleared.


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## loulou117

Its a big problem to me, although i'm still servicing the debt, company A has no legal entitlement to my property and legally this is down on paper, they nolonger own the debt so i would assume through the "notice of assignment" that if all documents etc.. have being passed to company B, and now the debt belongs to company B, i need to know do company B retain this judgment and if so, has it being transferred legally correctly.

My property, i have nothing to do with company A, i need to know has proper procedures being followed and legally if this judgment was part of the reassignment then company B need to prove this. 

It may not bother you, if it was your property an old company that you nolonger deal with but they remain to have a legal judgment against your property. Company A went to alot of unnecessary hassle, although i was then paying the debt and still got a judgment, so if anyone has slipped up here through the process of reassignment, i'm going to take this to court and try get it removed.

MF1 has made good points and i'm not dismissing his information but it does bother me that company A on paper legally have a judgment against my property and it is a matter of prinicipal that i find out who legally retains this etc..


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## Bronte

loulou117 said:


> so if anyone has slipped up here through the process of reassignment, i'm going to take this to court and try get it removed.


 
But you've not proven that anything was wrong about the reassignment. How can you afford to go to court.  All you seem to be trying to do is not owe the debt any more.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.


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## loulou117

The debt is being paid. No, i haven't proven that anything was wrong about the reassignment, but i also don't know does Company B now have judgment mortgage and if so, have they obtained this legally and does this need to be transferred into their names. This is what i'm trying to find out first.

This is an issue to me as already said, Company A sold my debt but legally its lodged with the land registry that they have an entitlement to my property. This is untrue and they shouldnt legally be entitled to hold this.... but, has it being passed on, i need to know this and there is no mention of a judgment mortgage in any letter i received about the notice of assignment.


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## Kev

As far as I am aware when there is a judgment on a debt and the judge made an order for company 'A' to collect the debt until it is paid off.  Company 'A' does not exist anymore and they sold the debt to company 'B'. 

As it is a judgement order debt, it should have gone back to the court for it to be legally transferred to company 'B', otherwise how can the OP know that his judgment was transferred legally over to company 'B'.  The OP has asked for details of the relevant authority from the court that  the debt has transferred to company 'B'  but the company will not let him have the documentation from the court confirming that his debt is now been transferred to them. 

It could be anyone that has set up a company and telling the OP you got to pay us for the judgment debt that you owed to company 'A'.


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## Kev

Bronte said:


> But you've not proven that anything was wrong about the reassignment. How can you afford to go to court.  All you seem to be trying to do is not owe the debt any more.  Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.



As it a judgment the debt will stay until it is paid off.  OP has already paid the court 200e for the judgement.  OP has not sold his debt to another company  it's the company that was on his judgement order.   

It is not the OP's fault that this company has now gone belly up. Therefore it will be company 'A' that will bear the cost of going to court and getting the debt transferred that they own by way of a legal judgment and the allegedly transferred OP debt legally over to another company.


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## loulou117

Thanks Kev, thats all i trying to say, if the current creditor owns my debt, then they should have the judgment mortgage transferred in their name!!

I have a number for a person in the District Court that deals with Judgment queries, can't get her but have left a message.


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## dewdrop

I will not attempt to try and satisfy yur queries as i do not have the knowledge. However i can appreciate how a matter can "bug" a person and i hope you will  be able to clarify matters to your satisfaction. Just wondering if the transfer of bank loans and relevant security to Nama has any bearing on your query in that Nama now steps in the shoes so to speak of the banks and their security becomes available to Nama.  Maybe i am just complicating matters!


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## loulou117

would love some more advice Time. i have just had confirmation from my current creditor that their creditor who they act on behalf of does not hold a judgment mortgage on my property and they advised me to contact the land registry. So there is a judgment mortgage on my property and it belongs to a company that is nolonger trading(i have this confirmed also) and they sold my debt, how do i go about getting this judgment mortgage removed?


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## Time

You need to get over the "no longer trading" bit. If the company is alive according to the companies office then the JM is valid. There is a world of difference in "no longer trading" and being dissolved/struck off the company register. 

The PRAI will not entertain an application to remove a JM where the company is still on the register.


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## Kev

When you say a judgement mortgage, is it a charge on your property from a different lender and in now way in relation your mortgage that was taken out by you to purchase your property.


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## loulou117

yes kev the old creditor got a judgment against my property(judgment mortgage) and it is registered in the land registry that their is a judgment mortgage for the full amount at that time (although this has reduced significantly about 3,000e outstanding.

Even if the old creditor was "trading" and is still alive, they sold my debt to this current creditor 2yrs ago so i have nothing to do with them. Clearly, the mortgage judgment was not part of the reassignment.

Also Time, how can the old creditor have a valid jm against my property when they reassigned my debt to another company?? So, if i sell up tomorrow, i have to pay the old creditor and the creditor?? of course not...

They sold the debt how can this jm be valid and give the old creditor any rights?


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## Time

You would have to go to court to challenge the validity of the JM. 

If you sell tomorrow the JM would have to be paid or the sale would not progress. The JM needs to be cancelled and then reapplied by the new crowd. 

You need specialist *impartial *legal advice.


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## loulou117

I do understand the jm will be satisfied upon full payment.  But i believe the old creditor needs to be removed from this jm as they sold the debt.  I agree i need specialist impartial legal advice as i spoke to a solicitor the other day and they could not advise me....
The current creditor doesn't seem bothered should i contact the receivership company that is looking after the old creditor?


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## Importer

I think there is nothing you can do at the moment. There is a JM on your home and you are not yet in a position to pay it back so theres not much you can do NOW

When you are ready to have the JM lifted (ie repay the debt) and at that point,if the company that put the JM in place is liquidated and gone, then as far as i know any benefit accruing to a liquidated company is vested in the Minister for Finance. In otherwords you would pay the Minister for Finance to have the JM lifted.

At any time between now and then, the company that purchased the debt may seek to have their own JM placed on the property. Until that happens, its no real concern of yours. Your only concern is the JM that currently exists.


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## Kev

loulou117 said:


> yes kev the old creditor got a judgment against my property(judgment mortgage) and it is registered in the land registry that their is a judgment mortgage for the full amount at that time (although this has reduced significantly about 3,000e outstanding.
> 
> Even if the old creditor was "trading" and is still alive, they sold my debt to this current creditor 2yrs ago so i have nothing to do with them. Clearly, the mortgage judgment was not part of the reassignment.
> 
> Also Time, how can the old creditor have a valid jm against my property when they reassigned my debt to another company?? So, if i sell up tomorrow, i have to pay the old creditor and the creditor?? of course not...
> 
> They sold the debt how can this jm be valid and give the old creditor any rights?



You will have problems as you have been paying it for a couple of  years. Was there any reasons why you never challenged it before now. 

As far as I am aware a judgement is not sold in itself...a debt is sold with a judgment attached, which  is a different thing altogether. The onus is on new company to provide  evidence that the judgement still exits. To do that they should go back to court and have it legally transferred to them.  

You can write to them asking or evident that they have taken over the judgement legally.


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## Importer

If you are servicing the loan at the moment, you should approach the debtor to help you to have the JM removed. If you keep on paying back the loan to a 3rd party you have to have a clear plan with the 3rd party how the JM gets removed at the end. I think it would be better to hold back all further payments to the 3rd party until you get it resolved


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## loulou117

This is only coming to my attention now for a couple of reasons, firstly, i never really understood a judgment mortgage and i had completely forgotten about it and secondly, i was hoping to avail of the DNR this year but this loan is now a secured loan as there is a jm that exists.  And clearly, from my information today the current creditor isn't bothered and hasn't gone to the trouble of transferring it into their name.  And i feel, the jm should be removed as the old creditor sold my debt and i nolonger deal with them...


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## Time

The only person who can force them to remove it is a judge.


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## Kev

loulou117 said:


> This is only coming to my attention now for a couple of reasons, firstly, i never really understood a judgment mortgage and i had completely forgotten about it and secondly, i was hoping to avail of the DNR this year but this loan is now a secured loan as there is a jm that exists.  And clearly, from my information today the current creditor isn't bothered and hasn't gone to the trouble of transferring it into their name.  And i feel, the jm should be removed as the old creditor sold my debt and i nolonger deal with them...



 You can write to the new company that is collecting you judgment  and request  up to date details of your account when they took it over from the company that took out the judgement. You know what you have been paying and see if this tally’s up with your payments then. Also you can ask them to see the authority have they from the court to collect your judgement debt. 

  Tell them that you will be stopping all payments forthwith to them until your receive the above documents. That should get some results from them. Make sure you keep all letters to them.


----------



## loulou117

Thankyou Kev, you are so so right, i do need to know does this current creditor have the legal authority to collect my judgment debt, i registered posted a letter to them yesterday, under section 4 data protection act, to forward me all information regarding me/my debt and to clear things up, i am going straight into the district court and i am going to ask the clerk, who has the authority to collect my judgment debt?   Thanks Kev.


----------



## loulou117

I have just found out from the district court my judgment order (court instalment order) for this debt is still in the old creditors name!!!!

So, when reassigning a debt (and in my case, a judgment debt enforced by the courts) can a new creditor just start collecting that debt or do they have to get authority from the courts?? does the reassignment process include the courts (especially when it involves a judgment debt,court instalment order)??


----------



## Time

Normally this crowd who are based in Bray, am I right?

Anyways their normal MO is to buy the debt before it gets to court so they can get judgement in their own name and then secure JM/Instalment orders etc. Also normally they don't buy debts that are post judgement stage so this is all very odd even for them.


----------



## loulou117

ok i have some more up to date information after talking to the civil office. The civil office have confirmed that all records are in the original creditors name (cash flow),i explained this debt was sold 2yrs ago (reassignment) and they explained the new creditor should have informed that office and changed the name on the summons, and she advised i get legal advice and get this back in front of the judge.

So the new creditor did not secure the jm/instalment order in the reassignment.


----------



## Time

Ah so it is cashflow who are the original judgement holder? Ok now that is starting to make sense.

This is going to get messy. As cash flow are in receivership I doubt the receiver will co-operate as it will cost them money to have the JM removed i.e. legal fees and PRAI fees. You will have to force them to remove the JM by going into court. 

Now you need to find a solicitor who does not handle applications on behalf of the banks in the local courts. They will not want to cause a problem for their bread and butter business. Also some solicitors will not deal with you for various moral reasons. You need to choose carefully.


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## Kev

Yes, they have sold the debt on with the judgement attached,  but did not go to court to get it transferred into the new company name as it would  cost court fees  that they did not want to pay. 

  What you need to know now what was the figure that as sold on to the new owner and does it concur with what you have paid the company that took out the judgment.   Also check if they have added on the debt any extra money the debt such as interest.


----------



## loulou117

Right, i have rang a couple of solicitors and they all say they are not sure of the process, so getting legal advice is going to be difficult.

So, i have decided i will go into the district court clerk now and issue proceedings with all the information i have now.  I need to get back in front of the judge asap.


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## Time

Let us know how you get on.


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## loulou117

Well kev, this is the difficulty, time back in 2008 i paid cash flow with a swipe card at the post office and i have no idea of the total amount, that incl. the instalment order weekly fee..... All i know is, the new creditor may have the jm but through this assignment of process they didn't follow procedures and should have changed the name on the summons(informed the civil office) and jm not transferred in there name. It is proving difficult to get some advice from a solicitor and i think i just have to go to court myself and discuss this with the judge


----------



## Kev

You should be able to get them figure from your bank statements?  What does the judgment actually say about the payments you to make to the company that took out the judgement.   You should only pay what the judgment order on it and no more.  You need to know the amount you have paid the company that took out the judgment on you as well as what you have paid so far with new company.  

Write to the new company for a copy of up-to-date payments you have made to them as well as the transferred figure that was assigned to them.  They must provide you with this information and you will need to know the figures before going to court.


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## loulou117

Couple of interesting things now, just back from the distrist court civil office and explained to the clerk the situation and the only way i can get in front of the judge is through a varying order so i have done so, my date is 12th feb.  

Secondly, this current creditor seems to have left ireland?? can the debt collection co. still collect this debt?
Also, the current creditor should have informed the civil office that the name on the summons has changed.
And as far as the jm the clerk said, mention to the judge but only the applicant can remove it, so i discuss that on the day.


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## Time

Make sure you post the copy summons by registered post and get the declaration of service signed. Get the whole lot back to the clerk within 7 days of the date of the hearing.


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## loulou117

yes, i will register post to their solicitors tomorrow and i know a peace commissioner. The clerk found it all very interesting and he to, said the current creditor should have informed the civil office. I will question the jm on the day and i will inform the judge this current creditor did not follow procedures during the reassignment and they should have informed the civil office the summons needed to be althered(change of creditor).

Last day the barrister that sits at the front spoke for them and i have a couple of questions so maybe a further date will be required and for them to have counsel to answer? i don't know.... but, i do dread these days but it has to be done.


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## Time

You never know, they may not even appear. Had that happen a few times.


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## loulou117

I just found out the creditor will be nolonger collecting this debt and they will mark this debt settled in full (great news) as far as the judgment mortgage goes they said, this has nothing got to do with them as the old creditor applied for this and it stays in place for 12yrs.

Ok, so how do i go about removing this jm as they have now marked this debt as settled in full? also, just wondering do i need to attend court next week?


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## 44brendan

Very difficult to remove a Jm without the consent of the owner of the JM. Why do you need this removed? A Court can do nothing in this respect as the JM was validly charged on the property.


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## Time

http://www.landdirect.ie/eng/Legal_...of_2009_Land_Registration_Rules_No_2_2009.pdf


> 21. The Land Registration Rules 1972 are amended by the substitution of the
> following for Rule 121 of those Rules:
> “Application to cancel judgment mortgage on grounds of invalidity
> 121. (1) Where an entry of notice of the deposit of an affidavit of
> judgment under the Judgment Mortgage (Ireland) Act 1850 or an entry of
> judgment mortgage under section 116 of the Land and Conveyancing Law
> Reform Act 2009 is made in the register of any property, a registered owner,
> or any other person interested, who claims that the deposit and the notice
> thereof in the register do not create a valid burden or that the judgment
> mortgage is not a valid burden may apply to the Authority for the cancellation of the entry.
> (2) The application shall be in writing and shall state the grounds on
> which the applicant claims that the entry should be cancelled, as, for
> instance, that a specified provision of the Judgment Mortgage (Ireland)
> Acts, 1850 and 1858, has not been complied with or that the judgment
> debtor had no estate or interest in the property or no estate or interest
> capable of being affected by registration of the affidavit, or judgment mortgage and shall state the facts on which he relies in support of his claim.
> (3) Where the Authority is satisfied on the facts stated that a prima facie
> case for cancellation of the entry has been made, notice of the application
> and of the cancellation proposed to be made shall be given to the judgment
> creditor and, in default of objection thereto by him within the time specified
> by the notice, the entry shall be cancelled.
> (4) Every objection to a proposed cancellation shall be in writing and
> shall be signed by the judgment creditor or his solicitor. It shall state the
> grounds of the objection and the facts relied on in support thereof.



If they don't object the application will go through.


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## loulou117

Time said:


> http://www.landdirect.ie/eng/Legal_...of_2009_Land_Registration_Rules_No_2_2009.pdf
> 
> 
> If they don't object the application will go through.


 
Right i'm confused... i do want this jm removed as already said, that debt is now marked settled in full and there is 7yrs remaining for it to stay there and what if i want to sell my property in the mean time? Also, cashflow are not in business and i cannot get any consent regarding the cancellation. But thanks Time, i will check out that website and i think i might need legal advice for this.  Oh and as far as attending court, the creditor told me to attend so i can consent to it being struck out.


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## Kev

loulou117 said:


> Right i'm confused... i do want this jm removed as already said, that debt is now marked settled in full and there is 7yrs remaining for it to stay there and what if i want to sell my property in the mean time? Also, cashflow are not in business and i cannot get any consent regarding the cancellation. But thanks Time, i will check out that website and i think i might need legal advice for this.  Oh and as far as attending court, the creditor told me to attend so i can consent to it being struck out.



 It is great news that they the debt has been recorded as fully settled, but was it the court that has advised you that it is now settled.  Also have you got something in writing to confirmed that the judgment is recorded as fully settled.  

  As far as I am aware when a debt is settled in full it should be crossed out on your deeds and will have no bearing on you selling your property. The reason the creditor put the judgment charge against your property was because they wanted to make sure that they got their money if the debt was not settled beforehand the sale of your home therefore they would get their money from the proceeds of the sale of your home.         

I would attend court next weeks in order to protect your interest ie make sure that everything is done legally by the creditor.


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## loulou117

Hi Kev, yes it is great news!!!! Kev my problem is this creditor did not apply for the jm that was the old creditor (cash flow) and this creditor is saying this, they will instruct an agent to strike out the instalment order, they will mark the debt as settled in full and cease collection.  

Now the part i'm confused about, they says, their client can reserve the right to sell on my debt but this is unlikely as they are marking it as "settled in full".  What does this mean??

Also, they are not getting involved with the judgment mortgage as it was not them who obtained it, so i must persue getting this removed myself or leave it in place for a further 7yrs.

Also, it was not the courts that asked them to cease collection, i explained my financial circumstances forwarded all my financial information to them and i requested they discuss my circumstances with their client and thankfully, they decided to cease collection.


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## Kev

The new collection company is saying that the debt is 'settled in full', but their client company that got the judgement again you, is reserving the right to sell on your debt again to another new debt collection company again, which is not what you want. 

  When was the last payment made on the debt was it over 6 years ago?  In the UK if the company does not enforce a judgement debt within 6 years then this would make it statute barred, but not sure if this is the same in Ireland. 

  I would write to company asking them for confirmed from their client it the company that sold the debt on to them that the debt has been ‘settled in full’ and for them to contact the land registry to have it taken off your deeds as well as any credit agency.  

  You should not make any more payment to them.


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## Time

They can't sell the debt again. 

You need to get the confirmation of settlement from company B  in writing and then tell Cashflows receiver that you will make an application to the land registry to remove the JM. Give them a chance to sort it out themselves first.


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## Kev

What I understand of it is that company B was acting as collection agency for company A and it's company B that is saying that the debt is settled in full, but company A is reserving the right to sell on the debt, but company B is saying that is unlikely,  are you sure you can you trust them.  There is nothing to stop company A selling the debt on again or going to the court to enforce the debt as they still own it.  

You will certainly need to get company B to confirm in writing that the  debt they were collecting for company A has been settled in full.  I am not sure if a letters from company B will suffice to get the judgment  removed from the land registry.


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## Time

If A has actually sold the debt, they have been paid for it, then they can't sell it multiple times.


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## Kev

Company B may have been collecting the debt on behalf of company A. Why would company B say that company A reserve the right to sell on the debt.


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## Time

We would need to see the paperwork to be sure. 

What I said earlier it is very unusual to sell debts in Ireland. The normal MO is to get a debt collector to collect on the behalf of the original creditor.


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## Kev

The debt may have been sold but the judgment has not gone away and that can only be removed (set-aside) by the court and the company that took it out on the OP.


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## Bronte

I must say Loulou that this is an absolutely fascinating thread.  And fair play to you for managing to get this far.   It is amazing that you've sought legal advice and that most solicitors don't seem to know how to get rid of the JM.   But you've demonstrated through tenacity, that a lone person, with the wonderful help of the courts clerk, how far a seemingly powerless individual can go.  And also Kev and Time have been wonderful in their advice and insight into what seems like a very tricky area.


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## loulou117

Thankyou Bronte for your very nice response and yes, Time and Kev have being a great help!!

Company B, there solicitor has confirm via email this is settled in full now and to attend court to consent to the strike out and to keep there email as confirmation.

Company A (cash flow) who sold my debt to company B, obtained the jm and now that the debt is settled in full, the jm needs to be removed.

I am going to contact the receiver as Time suggests but also, i have a legal aid apt due soon and i will seek there assistance . I have also contacted the land registry and they have outlined the process to cancel a jm but this involves company A who are in receivership so if the receiver does not assist me i will have to find a way around this,i do have to get this jm removed and i will.


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## Kev

I feel as the judgement was not officially assigned to Company B, which is why they agreed to 'settle in full', you should go for all costs (your time involved) against company B.  Also you should try and get the money that you have paid them back, due to them not legally entitled to collect it. If the receiver is not able to help, it will then be the judge that will remove the judgement it for you, which involved court costs, you should make sure that company B bears those court costs and not you.   

Also, an email is not official from the Company B to confirm that the debt is 'settle in full' you should ask for this confirmation on the company's official letter headed paper or from their solicitor and signed by the company's manager or their solicitor. Email Company B solicitor back asking for confirmation in writing on their letter headed paper or the company letter headed paper, also tell them to take out the words where it says that their client 'can reserve the right to sell on my debt'.  They have already said that it is unlikely therefore there is no reason why they should put it in their correspondence.


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## Time

If B legitimately bought the debt there would be paperwork from A to tell the OP this. A would have sold all rights to the debt making the JM invalid. If they are just doing the usual thing of collecting on their behalf there would be no paperwork.


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## Kev

Also company A could have sold on the debt to company B which they may have purchased without them knowing that there was a judgment attached to it.


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## loulou117

Yes i do have all the paper (no dates) were company A did inform me that all rights etc. were sold on to company B. Company B are a uk company who bought the debt and they have an irish debt collection company collecting this.

It has come to my attention a few further developments which will make tuesday interesting, First, this debt collection agency in their email say, yes they will mark this debt settled and they will close THEIR file but the creditor reserves the right to sell on my debt. Clearly, the debt collection agency have decided to cease collection but the debt is still very much alive and maybe passed to another agency.

Now, i have sent a further email to this debt collection agency, asking them to confirm my request (i requested they discuss my circumstances with their client and i forwarded all financial and medical documents)...What was the creditors reply to my request? Did my creditor instruct you to mark my debt as settled? (or is the debt collection agency making decisions themselves ) and ina few years time, i could have another collection agency knocking on my door.

Now, on the court date, i'm going to ask two things, first i will ask the barrister, who is she/he representing? and who is instructing the strike out. If she is acting on behalf of the collection agency, i will demand another date as they are not the creditor.

Secondly, i will be asking the judge, has this creditor being entitled to collect this stalment order, they are not on the summons and the civil office have no record of them???

Also Time, can you tell me, if this creditor does strike out this stalment order, does this mean the debt is settled??


----------



## loulou117

Company A otained a jm (2008) and sold debt to Company B(uk company), this uk company have a debt collection agency here collecting it. Company B, in taking over this debt did not follow procedures and is not on the summons. (and should be..)

There is something very suspicious about it all and i'm going to make sure that the creditor (company B) are aware of my circumstances as i don't think the collection agency informed them, i think they just realised that there was no point in them persuing me but keep the debt alive and maybe the creditor can revist it or sell it on again at some stage!!!!


----------



## Time

Who is named on the summons for the 12th? A or B or their collection agency?


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## Kev

I think I know of UK company B and they are notorious for pulling the wool over people eyes to get money from them. 

Just the email what I suggested and tell them that you will be looking for cost attached to having the judgment removed.  Do not let them have anymore of your personal financial details or circumstances as company B solicitors have no right to this personal information. 

Wait until you speak to your legal adviser next week.  Remember the solicitor is acting for company B interest and not your interest. please be careful what you send them.

Also I am sure they will not want to go to court so the ball is in their court to let you have all the information such as your as an up to date of your accounts when they took it over from company B, you just keep asking them questions as they are in the wrong not you.


----------



## loulou117

Firstly, i do not have a solicitor, i am representing myself. Also, when i was varying this order last feb i had to hand the barrister a copy of my means etc. so they already have my financial details.

Who is on the summons, when i went into the clerk to start proceedings Company A is on the original summons and their is no record of Company B, i explained Company A is noloner in business and they sold on my debt, so i put down Company B (the uk company) on the summons, but i have a feeling the collection agency will have their agent there and i'm not accepting that, as i have summoned the creditor not the collection agency, and surely a collection agency cannot strike out an instalment order !!

So just wondering, if the barrister says, she/he is acting on behalf of the name creditor (company B) and they are instructing a strike out does this mean the debt is settled??  If the barrister is acting on behalf of the collection agency, i will not consent for a strike out as i have requested the creditor to court.....

Also, the collection agency are notorious and they are very shifty, as she said, use my email as confirmation that this debt is now marked as settled but the creditor reserves the right to sell the debt on, in other words, they are nolonger collecting this debt and at no point did she inform me what was the creditors decision based on my request.

Depending on how this court date goes, afterwards, i will request all info under the data protection and i will contact the creditor directly myself and find out did they receive my new up to date financial circumstances and my request.


----------



## Time

They are going to get a strike out as you have summonsed the wrong party. They will deny having a judgement against you. 

You need to get A into court.


----------



## loulou117

Time, i cannot get Company A into court they are nolonger in business.  Company B bought this debt from company A, i have being paying company b for the past 2.5yrs this instalment order, i only discovered recently that company never informed the civil office that they (company b) are the new creditor on the summons.

Listen, i know i can get this debt struck out, as the collection agency have informed me there agent will be there on the day to strike it out, 

my problem is: the debt collection agency acting on behalf of company b are closing their file but this debt will still exist.

Also, i have a feeling the collection agency is instructing their agent to strike this out and i'm not accepting this as i have requested their client (the creditor) to court.

And i will most definitely, inform the judge that this creditor is not on the summons, has this creditor being legally entitled to collect this instalment order even though this debt was assigned to them but they did not inform the civil office and there is no record of this creditor.


----------



## loulou117

Company B do not have a judgment against me but they have being collecting this judgment order since it was sold to them.

My concern is even if this strike out goes ahead on tuesday, this debt still exists!!!

Time, can you tell me, lets say the barrister says, that she is acting on behalf of the actual creditor and the creditor is instructing a strike out, does this mean the debt is settled??


----------



## loulou117

The Plan is, i will attend court on tuesday, i will have all my documents, original summons, notice of assignment to this creditor, jm, all my financial and medical documents and a letter to the judge outlining a couple of my concerns regarding the creditor.

When i'm called, i will wait to hear what the barrister has to say and if she/he instructs a strike out before i consent to this, i need to know who is structing the strike out and who is she representing?  and only when i know this, i will put on concerns to the judge about this creditor i.e. they are not on the summons, i have forwarded all my information to them and my response is from the debt collection agency saying they will nolonger be collecting this debt,they will mark it settled but the creditor reserves the right to sell it on.

I hope the barrister/agent is representing is actual creditor because if not, i will not accept a debt collection agency striking out the stalment order as they are not the creditor on the summons and i will ask for another date.


----------



## Kev

You may not be able to get this back the money you have paid to company B because you paid it to them, but there is no harm in trying. Also you should go for any court costs incurred with this debt as well as your time spent on it. 

I think if you are sure that the creditor barrister is going for a strike out in court then the debt will be settled officially (but be sceptical about what they say and until it happens then you can believe it).  You will need to get the debt off your home deeds make sure the judge is aware of that important issue.  

Best of Luck on Tuesday.


----------



## Kev

loulou117 said:


> The Plan is, i will attend court on tuesday, i will have all my documents, original summons, notice of assignment to this creditor, jm, all my financial and medical documents and a letter to the judge outlining a couple of my concerns regarding the creditor.
> 
> When i'm called, i will wait to hear what the barrister has to say and if she/he instructs a strike out before i consent to this, i need to know who is structing the strike out and who is she representing?  and only when i know this, i will put on concerns to the judge about this creditor i.e. they are not on the summons, i have forwarded all my information to them and my response is from the debt collection agency saying they will nolonger be collecting this debt,they will mark it settled but the creditor reserves the right to sell it on.
> 
> I hope the barrister/agent is representing is actual creditor because if not, i will not accept a debt collection agency striking out the stalment order as they are not the creditor on the summons and i will ask for another date.



You seem to have everything in hand for court and that is all you can do and wait for the court results.  Best of Luck


----------



## loulou117

Thankyou Kev, i have emailed the collection agency today and asked them to confirm have they passed all my information to the creditor and has the creditor instructed them to mark it as settled (i don't think they have done this) but no matter what Kev, tuesday is my opportunity to point out a few inaccurcies with this existing creditor. 

I will given the opportunity point out there is a judgment mortgage attached to this debt and its in the old creditors name and they are nolonger in business.

I will let you know how i get on. Thanks again.


----------



## Time

> Time, i cannot get Company A into court they are nolonger in business.


Cashflow certainly do exist, even if in liquidation and the liquidator would have to answer any summons brought against it.


----------



## loulou117

But cash flow sold the debt, notice of assignment, all rights etc... to company b in 2010 and company b took over the instalment order payments.

The civil office told me if the creditor changes on a summons they need to be informed. It sounds to me that company b did not follow procedures as this was a judgment order and they just got a smooth transaction in taking over the payments.

As cash flow are in receivership, the receiver may just say, cash flow sold on that debt, that was down to company b to change the info on the summons and its company b who i have being paying for the past 2.5yrs.!!

Also, remember company b are unaware i know this information and on tuesday i will be pointing this out to the judge. Civil office have no record of company b and have they being entitled to collect this instalment order.


----------



## loulou117

The reality is my debt still exists, and company B are the creditors. 

I suspect Company B's collection agency have decided to close their file but the debt is still alive. I requested all my info to be passed to the actual creditor and asked for a decision from the creditor to cease collection, it appears this was not done.

I am awaiting confirmation and asked have the collection agency informed their creditor re:my request and has the creditor instructed this debt to be marked settled? i have also asked who incurres the court cost etc.


----------



## Time

I wish you the best of luck but don't be surprised if B deny everything and look for costs.


----------



## loulou117

Well i have asked company B are they incurring the court costs? as far as denying everything, company B are not denying anything they would be happy to continue receiving my money but because i'm bringing them to court and they dont stand a chance of securing future payments they are happy to strike this out.  Remember, i'm getting all this information form the debt collection agency, i can't be sure if they have passed anything to their creditor.

Also, after tuesday i am most definitely re-issuing my Data Protection request and i will scrutinise every last document and i have a legal aid appointment due in a couple of months, i will persue either company B or the debt collection agency if i find they have being improper regarding the collection of this debt or otherwise.


----------



## Kev

Time said:


> I wish you the best of luck but don't be surprised if B deny everything and look for costs.



But they cannot deny collecting money for the debt and to do that they should have gone to court and had judgement transferred to them as well. This they have not done and loulou117 has been paying them in good faith not knowing that the judgment had not been transferred to the beggars.


----------



## Time

The problem you face is that if you summons the wrong company you will be punished with a costs order. 

B can show up and say "This is not our problem, she should have summonsed A, strike out and an order for costs please Judge", there is nothing you can say to counter that. 

What I would have done is to have issued against A and forced the liquidator into court to say they have no interest in the judgement as they have "sold" it to B and then ask the judge to order the JM removed. B could go swivel at that stage.  

This where having a solicitor would help you.


----------



## Kev

The should judge make allowance for loulou as he is a layperson and inexperience in this and completely trusted the creditor that had the judgement on him. 

There has been numerous of cases in the UK where people have represented themselves in case such as loulou with debt collectors involved and the outcome was nearly always was favorable for them especially when the creditor was not following the correct procedure that they were obviously aware of.


----------



## loulou117

I am so  annoyed and would love some extra advice, i have just found out that the debt collection agency did not pass any of my information to my creditor, i requested in january, that all my financial / medical information be passed to my creditor and asked them to cease collection.  The debt collection agency said they would scan all documents forward to the creditor and await their decision.

Now today i'm told they made a decision to stop collection and did not pass my information to the creditor!!!!


----------



## Time

Data protection requests all round me thinks.


----------



## Kev

Have you got that in writing from them.  Just remember that you cannot trust that company, is there anyway you can postpone the hearing scheduled for tomorrow in order for you to get ready for the hearing.


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## Time

You would either have to show up tomorrow and request an adjournment or withdraw the application and re-enter it when you are ready to proceed.


----------



## loulou117

I am just so upset and furious, i had just had another email, stating my creditor is not aware for my financial circumstances. I have being completely mislead, jan 31st the collection agency confirmed they would pass all my info to the creditor and tell me their response. 

Now the collection agency have said, just now, as the collection agent on behalf of the creditor in their capacity they made the decision to stop collecting and the debt collection agency will strike it out tomorrow. Debt collection agency is not my creditor and not on the summons and they want to strike this out.......(i will accept a strike out from the creditor.)

I don't think so... how dare they!!!! I had emailed back explaining, they are not my creditor, they can make the decision to stop collection but that was not my request and as they creditor is unaware of this summons/court date and unaware of my circumstances which i had only found out now (day before court) i will be requesting another court date.


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## Time

The debt collector has no standing to request a strike out.


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## Kev

Get the court early tomorrow and request adjournment on the basis that you just found out that the creditor will be attending the hearing. 

From now just correspond with the owner of the debt and not the company that is collecting for them.


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## loulou117

i completely agree!!! 

I will be informing the judge tomorrow, i do not consent to this strike out as it is not on the instruction of the creditor.

The agent here is on behalf of the debt collection agency and they are not entitled to strike out this instalment order.  They are not the creditor, they do not own my debt, and they did not inform the creditor of my circumstance my request and more importantly, the creditor is unaware of this summons/court date.

Data Protection straight away!!


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## Kev

If I were you I would only asked for adjournment in a humble manner the reason for adjournment is because you were lead to believe that the creditor would be attending court and you were only told at the last minute that they would not be attending.  

If more information is required then you can go on to say that the collection company that has been collecting money from you for over 2 years were not legally entitled to collect the money as there is a judgment attached to the debt.


----------



## loulou117

There is so much messing going on ....

I will only leave the courts tomorrow with an adjourment date and i will explain the debt collection agency have being wasting the courts time by not informing the creditor.

they have just informed me.  "Thats fine.  We have given our agent instructions for tomorrow."


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## loulou117

OMG!!! Finished in court, i pointed out everything, every last thing, the agent was shocked.......

There agent her instruction were payments have ceased collection, i stopped her and asked her who she was representing, she answered and i informed the judge they are the debt collection agency not the creditor etc. etc. i informed the judge the debt collection agency have being wasting the courts time and my time and i was only informed yesterday, none of my info was passed etc. etc..jm etc..

The court room were glued to their seats. I went on to say about the summons, cashflow etc.. and the civil office have no record of this creditor etc. and i showed my notice of assignment the judge confirmed this debt was not assignment correctly. I told the judge this is all very "Shifty" and i don't think they should have been legally entitled to collect my debt she agreed.

Long story short, she said all she can do is make an order that is debt does not come to the courts again and i cannot be persued under enforcment instalment order and she advised i persue the creditor myself but this debt will not come into the courts again.

As i was leaving people sitting in the court actually said "Well Done" to me.

I had a sleepless night and it was worth it. I have just made my request under the data protection act to the debt collection agency and i have informed them i will be persuing them in court regarding their improper procedures .


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## Time

Well done.


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## Kev

Wonderful news ..will they also take your judgment off your deeds as well now.


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## Time

That is the next thing to sort.


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## loulou117

Well this is only half the battle, i did mention the jm and she was very surprised and asked who obtained this and i told her, she just said, you'll have to get that removed.

So yes, that is the next step.

Also, a few other things have come to my attention, the debt collection agency told me yesterday this creditor is not in ireland, i have just found the creditor is located here and i have just made a call to confirm this. 

I have just written a letter to the creditor at there dublin address and explained the situation and made my request and explained if they do not cease my debt,mark settled in full and do not sell on, i will persue them in court with regards to them not obtaining my debt correctly, and they weren't not my summons and they were not entitled to collect my debt. And the data pro.


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## Kev

They will be in Ireland also as well as the  UK there is a lot of these companies are in Ireland now as the corporate tax there is much lower in Ireland than UK.   

You should also use the words 'full and final settlement.   If you get that from them they cannot sell it on.  Also this should be on their letter headed paper as well and also stamped and signed by them.   Asked them to sent a copy to the land register as well.  This should be enough to get it removed from your deeds as well. 

Do not trust them, they know every trick in the book on how to extract money from people.


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## loulou117

Thanks Kev, i have just sent a letter off to the creditor so i will what answer i get back.  And as far as the judgment mortgage, i have just written a letter to the receivers on behalf of cashflow asking them to complete the relevant form to cancel this judgment mortgage as the applicant is nolonger in business, so will be interesting what there answer will be.

Thankyou for all your advice, this is far from finished as i plan to persue this creditor because they clearly did not obtain my debt correctly, and they have being misleding me and falsely collecting this debt when there is no record of them.

Thanks Kev and Time, i appreciate all your very valuable advice!!


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