# Its officially winter - the fog light brigade are out



## Graham_07 (7 Nov 2007)

Ok, maybe this belongs in "car & motoring" but I'm ranting so here it is. Drove 40Km last night between 7-8pm on a lovely clear night. Spent most of the time blinded front and back by fogbound idiots who persist in driving with foglights on in clear conditions. So many cars have them now that it can't be a "hey look at me I have fog lights & you don't" attitude. Is it sheer laziness? Or inattention? There is a bulb on the dash which tells you its on so you can't say I didn't know. Or is it just plain old disrespect for those who nearly have to wear ray bans to avoid being permanently scarred from the glare? In the end I started counting and out of 20 cars passing 8 had foglamps on ( not a scientifically arrived at sample but there you go) Please please turn the darn things off unless they're needed.


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## terrysgirl33 (7 Nov 2007)

Are you talking about fog lights or the spotlights on the bottom of the bumper?  I haven't noticed fog lights (recently...), but I did notice the spotlights on a good few cars recently, with the dipped headlights on, in a lit up area, on a clear night.


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## Graham_07 (7 Nov 2007)

terrysgirl33 said:


> Are you talking about fog lights or the spotlights on the bottom of the bumper? I haven't noticed fog lights (recently...), but I did notice the spotlights on a good few cars recently, with the dipped headlights on, in a lit up area, on a clear night.


 
The ones on the bumper.

http://www.rsa.ie/NEWS/News/MISUSE_OF_FOG_LIGHTS_AND_FAULTY_VEHICLE_LIGHTS.html


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## Caveat (7 Nov 2007)

I think it's no more than just laziness really - I mean how many people drive with their full beams on facing oncoming traffic even though they also have a dash light reminding them?


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## Jock04 (7 Nov 2007)

Mostly,just another case of "look at me"

The fact it is unpleasant, uncomfortable & in some circumstances dangerous for other road users is of no concern to them.


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## ubiquitous (7 Nov 2007)

Jock04 said:


> The fact it is unpleasant, uncomfortable & in some circumstances dangerous for other road users is of no concern to them.



Unpleasant & uncomfortable, yes, but not nearly as dangerous as that other winter hazard of cars driving without any lights when it is getting dark in the evenings, or when there is heavy fog during the daytime.


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## Mr2 (7 Nov 2007)

Rear fog lamps should be rarely used, only when it's actually foggy.

Front fog lights are yellow in colour, most jap imports have them not many cars for the irish market have these.

Front white/clear lights are called spot lights/ driving lights, when focused correctly these will only make the road directly in front of the car brighter.

I drive with my park lights on all the time, when it gets a bit darker I put on the spot lights and then when it's gets another bit darker I put on my dipped beams. This would be the correct course of action.

Only if lights are out of focus will they annoy on comming traffic or the main beams are on.

Spot light's when focused and the genuine part for the bumber (either bought as part of the car or genuine spare part fitted after) are not the problem. 
It's usually out of focus spot lights or non-genuine incorrectly fitted spot light that are the problem.


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## Graham_07 (7 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Unpleasant & uncomfortable, yes, but not nearly as dangerous as that other winter hazard of cars driving without any lights when it is getting dark in the evenings, or when there is heavy fog during the daytime.


 
Agreed, I have, for many years, adopted the "Volvo" approach of running lights on at all times most especially in daytime rain or poor visibility.


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## Carpenter (7 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> Rear fog lamps should be rarely used, only when it's actually foggy.
> 
> Front fog lights are yellow in colour, most jap imports have them not many cars for the irish market have these.
> 
> ...


 
I would disagree with a lot of the above- (as per the RSA article) the lights at the front are fog lights and not "spot lights"; they are white in most instances and most new cars now are marketed as being fitted with said "fog" lamps, not "spot" lamps. These fog lights (front or rear) should never be turned on when driving conditions are good and there is no fog. There are very few days in the year when it is actually necessary to use fog lights in my experience.


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## Hoagy (7 Nov 2007)

Unfortunately the following relates to the UK only.

Daft motorists who use their fog lights in clear conditions in Coventry are facing a fine in a clampdown by traffic police.
Officers based at Fletchamstead Highway police station say that the blinding lights are being misused, and it is proving dangerous to other drivers.
A £30 fine will be imposed on drivers who break the law by going around with their fog lights on.

Acting Sergeant Nigel Fairburn said:"We have been receiving complaints from members of the public who have been dazzled by motorists using their front fog lights when there is absolutely no need.​
"The legislation states they are only to be used in conditions where visibility is serious impaired – generally when you cannot see for more than 100 metres (328 feet).​
"We will be issuing fixed penalty fines of £30 to drivers who leave their front fog lights on despite the clear conditions.​
"We believe that some motorists, especially young ones, are confused about their front fog lights and their use.​
"Basically, if the lights are on a separate switch with a warning light on the dashboard, these are fog lights, and should only be used in extreme conditions.​
"If they come on when you flick on the main beam switch then they are driving lights not fog lights and will disappear when the lights are dipped or switched off.​
"Also drivers should ensure they remember to switch off rear fog lights after use as they can mask the brake lights of the car as well as dazzling motorists travelling behind​


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## scatriona (7 Nov 2007)

I agree, hate those spot lights - very dazzling! On my car, a Ford, I must turn the switch (with the fog light icon on it!) on to activate them and they're not yellow...
I never do it as my Dipped headlamps are fine in built up areas or following traffic. Don't understand why people need those extra spots aswell!?

S


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## Jock04 (7 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Unpleasant & uncomfortable, yes, but not nearly as dangerous as that other winter hazard of cars driving without any lights when it is getting dark in the evenings, or when there is heavy fog during the daytime.


 
Agreed. Was almost knocked down about 8pm last night by a Micra with no lights on.

The danger of un-necessarily lit fog lamps should not be under-estimated though.


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## Mr2 (7 Nov 2007)

I think there great. I put mine on a lot. I do require them to drive safetly home, I don't know what it's like in the cities but I drive from the outskirts of a big town to my house 15 miles away. In the rain, fog, darker evenings, etc, dip beams are not enough. This way I haven't hit many pot holes, knocked anybody down etc.  I get my light focus regulary checked and the rest of my lights.


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## RonanC (7 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> I think there great. I put mine on a lot. I do require them to drive safetly home, I don't know what it's like in the cities but I drive from the outskirts of a big town to my house 15 miles away. In the rain, fog, darker evenings, etc, dip beams are not enough. This way I haven't hit many pot holes, knocked anybody down etc. I get my light focus regulary checked and the rest of my lights.


 

Have been told on several occasions by members of the gardai that they are illegal to have on apart from when its it foggy. 

I purchased a set of HID Xenon lights and fitted them to my car and got them focused correctly and find them fantastic on country roads.


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## Carpenter (7 Nov 2007)

Sorry Mr2 but I don't see what focus has got to do with fog lights, which are fixed and not "focusable" AFAIK.  Driving with fogs may be great to help you see the road ahead but they are a nuisance for other drivers and road users when used in other than foggy conditions.  In my experience appropriate speed and use of regular main/ dipped beams is adequate for normal driving conditions.  Seems pretty clear from the extracts posted above.


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## Mr2 (7 Nov 2007)

I have to say I find the Xenon light's great as well but I know when I meet a car with them on I get blinded by them, that's a real cutting bright light.

Carpenter: shows what you know if you think that there fixed and cannot be moved.


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## ubiquitous (7 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> I think there great. I put mine on a lot. I do require them to drive safetly home, I don't know what it's like in the cities but I drive from the outskirts of a big town to my house 15 miles away. In the rain, fog, darker evenings, etc, dip beams are not enough. This way I haven't hit many pot holes, knocked anybody down etc.  I get my light focus regularly checked .



Do you get your eyesight regularly checked as well?

If so, you should have no need for foglights.


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## scatriona (7 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> I think there great. I put mine on a lot. I do require them to drive safetly home, I don't know what it's like in the cities but I drive from the outskirts of a big town to my house 15 miles away. In the rain, fog, darker evenings, etc, dip beams are not enough. This way I haven't hit many pot holes, knocked anybody down etc. I get my light focus regulary checked and the rest of my lights.


 
That's odd, as I too have to drive on a very dark country road (riddled with potholes! )to get home but I still don't need my 'fogs' - only my dipped & headlights, which I obviously dip for oncoming cars...


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## Carpenter (7 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> Carpenter: shows what you know if you think that there fixed and cannot be moved.


 
I know they should only be used when driving in fog and that's all I need to know about the fog lights on my car.


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## tallpaul (7 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> I think there great. I put mine on a lot. I do require them to drive safetly home, I don't know what it's like in the cities but I drive from the outskirts of a big town to my house 15 miles away. In the rain, fog, darker evenings, etc, dip beams are not enough. This way I haven't hit many pot holes, knocked anybody down etc. I get my light focus regulary checked and the rest of my lights.


 
They are illegal to use outside of foggy conditions. I have a similar journey to you and am confident enough not to have to use them. If it your way home you should be familiar enought to know where the pot holes etc. are!!

From the Rules of the Road (italics my emphasis):

When to use headlights

If conditions require you to use headlights to drive safely, you must use them. Use dipped headlights at night or main beam headlights as appropriate. When in doubt, turn them on. Make sure that the red lights and number plate lighting at the back of your vehicle are working. 

Use dipped headlights:
just after the beginning (dusk) and before the end (dawn) of lightingup hours, 
as long as they are needed to let you see clearly, 
when stopped in traffic, 
when meeting other traffic, 
in built-up areas where there is good street lighting, 
on continuously lit roads outside built-up areas, 
when following behind another vehicle, 
where there is dense fog, falling snow or heavy rain, 
when daylight is fading, and 
generally to avoid inconveniencing other traffic. 
It is good practice to use dipped headlights or dim/dip lights, where fitted, instead of only sidelights in built-up areas where there is good street lighting. 

Use main beam headlights in situations, places and times outside of those listed above. 
_Use fog lights only during dense fog and falling snow. You *must* turn them off at all other times. _
What to do if you are dazzled by another vehicle's headlights 

According to the preamble of the Rules of the Road, where the term 'must' is used, it refers back to sections of the Road Traffic Acts.


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## Pique318 (7 Nov 2007)

one of the biggest dangers is poeple who drive with their parking lights (sidelights) on and think they're enough. A 5W bulb is NOT enough !!!

Fogs have never dazzled me (or anyone I know either), but badly aimed dipped lights certainly do dazzle me, and there's loads of cars around with that problem.

I always drive with my fogs on and no-one I've met has ever flashed their lights at me to indicate they were being dazzled.

Rear fogs are a much more dangerous hazard, high intensity red lights constantly on in the car in front when following them on a normal night is lethal and I've often flashed my lights to try to get them to realise something is up. Some people do realise but mostly, the only option is to overtake or if that's not possible, then to drop waaaay back.


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## Graham_07 (7 Nov 2007)

Pique318 said:


> I always drive with my fogs on and no-one I've met has ever flashed their lights at me to indicate they were being dazzled.


 
Should it be up to the other driver to tell you that you're driving with fog lights on at inappropriate times ? Thought the rules of the road, as quoted earlier, already did that.


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## Mr2 (7 Nov 2007)

TallPaul, I like that one, " I should know where all the potholes are on the road" on my way home. I admit I don't know where every pothole on my 15 mile drive to and from work is. 

I guess you in some peoples eyes you can be too safe. I'm trying to light up a road in front of me as best I can so I don't knock someone down or damage my car.

I do actuall get my eyes tested every year, (job pays for it as we use computers) I don't have 20/20 vision but I don't need to wear glasses.


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## Pique318 (7 Nov 2007)

Graham_07 said:


> Should it be up to the other driver to tell you that you're driving with fog lights on at inappropriate times ? Thought the rules of the road, as quoted earlier, already did that.


 
It's probably more likely that 99.9% of people don't care so long as you're not causing a hazard by dazzling them !


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## Jock04 (7 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> I think there great. I put mine on a lot.


 


Pique318 said:


> I always drive with my fogs on .


 
Like I said..........



Jock04 said:


> The fact it is unpleasant, uncomfortable & in some circumstances dangerous for other road users is of no concern to them.


 




although...............



Mr2 said:


> I drive with my park lights on all the time, when it gets a bit darker I put on the spot lights and then when it's gets another bit darker I put on my dipped beams. This would be the correct course of action.


 
Sometimes it's hard to tell


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## scatriona (7 Nov 2007)

Pique318 said:


> It's probably more likely that 99.9% of people don't care so long as you're not causing a hazard by dazzling them !


 
Well it seems pretty clear from this thread that 'fogs' do dazzle other drivers!! Pique318 - I've given up flashing people as I'd look like an ambulance if I did it for every car I come across in my area with their fogs on!
I've noticed an increase in this mainly in last 2 years so I wonder if different, newer cars have really different lights (spots which are not fogs etc.)  as  I find it hard to believe that people would flick their 'fogs' switch on EVERY time they drive at night, regardless of conditions!? Or maybe I have too much faith in their consideration for other drivers 

S


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## Carpenter (7 Nov 2007)

Pique318 said:


> I always drive with my fogs on and no-one I've met has ever flashed their lights at me to indicate they were being dazzled.
> 
> Rear fogs are a much more dangerous hazard, high intensity red lights constantly on in the car in front when following them on a normal night is lethal and I've often flashed my lights to try to get them to realise something is up. Some people do realise but mostly, the only option is to overtake or if that's not possible, then to drop waaaay back.


 
Hmmm......


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## Mr2 (7 Nov 2007)

So am I right in saying that only 0.01% of drivers are actually dazzled by these lights? 

I could then say 100% of the cars that dazzled them were out of focus lights, I see lights that are out of focus everyday.

I'd agree with Pique318, rear fog lights are much more a problem with it's intensity, when it's not required. ie. no fog.


Is flashing someone not illegal? I'm sure just as I was about to meet a car and it flashed me out of the blue, that sure as hell would dazzel me.


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## Pique318 (7 Nov 2007)

scatriona said:


> Well it seems pretty clear from this thread that 'fogs' do dazzle other drivers!!


 
And so do dipped beams....so none of us should use dipped beams either ??  

The problem is not with foglights, or with dipped beams, neither of them cause a problem UNLESS they're not aimed correctly !!! Does this compute ?

Front foglights are aimed at the ground about 10 metres max in front of the car. If that causes an oncoming driver to be dazzled, then something is seriously wrong !!


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## Graham_07 (7 Nov 2007)

Pique318 said:


> If that causes an oncoming driver to be dazzled, then something is seriously wrong !!


 
Yes, whats wrong is using them when they shouldnt be used . Fog diffuses the beam intensity. No fog, more intensity, more dazzle.


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## scatriona (7 Nov 2007)

Pique318 said:


> And so do dipped beams....so none of us should use dipped beams either ??


 
I never had a problem with dipped beams... just fogs (and headlights obviously!)


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## Carpenter (7 Nov 2007)

The rules/ law in relation to the proper use of fog lights have already been pointed out in this thread; the application of the rule/ law shouldn't be subject to personal preference or view: "fog lights don't dazzle me so its ok to have mine on when there's no fog".  I think the point has been well made.


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## Graham_07 (7 Nov 2007)

Carpenter said:


> The rules/ law in relation to the proper use of fog lights have already been pointed out in this thread; the application of the rule/ law shouldn't be subject to personal preference or view: "fog lights don't dazzle me so its ok to have mine on when there's no fog". I think the point has been well made.


 
Hear Hear. 

Now tell me....anyone not use their fogs when there IS fog..?  ok lets not go there. Case closed.


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## Pique318 (7 Nov 2007)

Graham_07 said:


> Yes, whats wrong is using them when they shouldnt be used . Fog diffuses the beam intensity. No fog, more intensity, more dazzle.


 
 Good one...

it's a 55W bulb, same as the dipped beam wattage, but not focused by the lense for distance, but to be spread on the ground immediately in front of the vehicle.

Granted, if it was knocked askew and pointed up in the air, it would potentially dazzle, but as dipped beams are focused for max distance, the potential for those to dazzle exceeds that of th foglights.


I somehow believe there's a deeper issue that people have with foglights than what is claimed because the facts do not stand up to scrutiny.

I for one have been driving for almost 15 years and have NEVER been dazzled by OEM foglights. However, I am regularly dazzled by badly aimed dipped beams. I have the suceptability to dazzling, but yet it has never happened due to foglights. Yet some people on this thread would fight tooth and nail that they DO dazzle and not just if they're badly aimed. Why is that ?

Is it some judgement they're making about the driver in question ? "Oh look at him, driving with his (perfectly aimed, non dazzling) foglights switched on and no sign of a fog...Grrr...I hate people like that. I bet he's a lunatic on the roads! "  

Like someone mentioned previously, they help you see the road and verge better. In dawn/dusk they help you be seen.


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## Mr2 (7 Nov 2007)

It's okay to be wrong! Graham 07 you can't say case closed just because your losing.

That rule/law argument won't stand either, look at the issue of "L" drivers, that's a rule/law and we wont get started there but there are more dangers with that, you would be dazzled with the bad drivers on the road.

Front spot lights are only to light up the are in front of the car, if it does dazzle anyone your either looking at the white line when meeting cars (which is wrong) or there out of focus which is my argument.


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## Carpenter (7 Nov 2007)

They're, they're Mr 2 ; )!  We are discussing the use of fog lights not L plates, not the use of dipped beams, main beams or anything else.  Fog lights do dazzle, especially if the road is wet or when used in heavy rain; they are designed and intended for use in fog only.  If fog lights contributed to general road safety in all conditions (fog/ no fog, daytime/ night time) we would surely be recommended or guided by the appropriate authorities to drive with fogs on all the time; the simple fact is we are not and the opposite is the case.  This could run and run: "but it doesn't dazzle me so I'm right".....


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## Graham_07 (7 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> It's okay to be wrong! Graham 07 you can't say case closed just because your loosing.


 
1) Loosing is not the same as losing. If my fogs were loose then that would be a different matter. 

2) Whoever said anything about losing ? I didn't realise this was a competition? However for the sake of it tot up the fors / againsts on the thread. 
( oh yes, by the way, I would generally prefer to accept the rule of law than not, that might make me seem a bit stodgy by some people but hey, thats me. )


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## Mr2 (7 Nov 2007)

The authorities can't tell people to drive with these as a lot of cars don't come with front spot lights, however rear fog lights they can tell us to use as they are standard on cars for the irish market.



[broken link removed]

Please look at the above web site, it says as regards fitting spot lights to the font of the car, to "take care not to increase risk to other road 
users". Provided my spot lights are correctly focused it cannot be illegal to have them on when I require them.


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## Graham_07 (7 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> The authorities can't tell people to drive with these as a lot of cars don't come with front spot lights, however rear fog lights they can tell us to use as they are standard on cars for the irish market.


 
And since the authorities direction on rear fogs (courtesy of tallpaul)  is :-
_Use fog lights only during dense fog and falling snow. You *must* turn them off at all other times. _
Would it not be reasonable to expect a similar direction on front ones ?


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## Mr2 (7 Nov 2007)

I have front spot lights / driving lights on my car, not front yellow fog lamps.


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## scatriona (7 Nov 2007)

So... is there a difference between spots and fogs??? and are we talking about completely different lights!

Mr2 - do your 'spots' have a 'fog' icon on the switch?


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## Graham_07 (7 Nov 2007)

scatriona said:


> So... is there a difference between spots and fogs??? and are we talking about completely different lights!
> 
> Mr2 - do your 'spots' have a 'fog' icon on the switch?


 

All from googling "front fog lamps" 

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]

Havent found a yellow one yet, but will keep trying. ( course could be yellow bulbs but hey, it isn't as if we're nitpicking )


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## Mr2 (7 Nov 2007)

There is no mark on the switch but I do have a seperate switch for them as I only use them when I require them. They are genuine and came from factory fitted to the car. They also turn with the steering, so when I turn my steering wheel to the r/l they go with it and light up the road before I've made my turn.


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## MrMan (7 Nov 2007)

I think that some people have been attributing dazzling lights incorrectly to front fog/spot lights. From my own experience I have never been dazzled by front spot lights, just strong dips and people not dipping at all and of course the rear (red) fog lights. TBH I leave mine on cause I like them and I don't get flashed to turn them off.


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## Pique318 (7 Nov 2007)

Carpenter said:


> They're, they're Mr 2 ; )! We are discussing the use of fog lights not L plates, not the use of dipped beams, main beams or anything else. Fog lights do dazzle, especially if the road is wet or when used in heavy rain; they are designed and intended for use in fog only. If fog lights contributed to general road safety in all conditions (fog/ no fog, daytime/ night time) we would surely be recommended or guided by the appropriate authorities to drive with fogs on all the time; the simple fact is we are not and the opposite is the case. This could run and run: "but it doesn't dazzle me so I'm right".....


 

But yet there are and have been calls for just such a change in the law to make people use dipped lights all the time as the increased visibility of other road users increases safety...

Sweden has it, why not us?

Fog lights do it too but as has been said, not all cars have them.


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## Carpenter (7 Nov 2007)

This thread has really degenerated into a quagmire; the opening post related to fog lights, Mr 2 decided to muddy the water with his "spot" lights which seem to be a different proposal altogether.  I think it's quite clear that fog lights should not used when there is no fog and I stand by my original assertion that fog lights cannot be focused as they are fixed lens light.


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## scatriona (7 Nov 2007)

I agree Carpenter! It's a foggy issue....  which has been clouded somewhat!!


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## Crugers (7 Nov 2007)

There seems to be a lot of 'focus' in this thread on fog lamps...
The NCT don't seem to 'focus' on lamps. Their 'aim' seems to make more cars fail.

Here is the NCT *Car Testing - Inspection list for Lamps*
4.Light

Stop Lamps
Rear Lamps and Registration Plate Lamps
Indicators / Tell Tales Side Lamps
Headlamp Condition
Headlamp Aim
Aux Lamp Condition
Aux Lamp Aim
Reflectors
And here are the *Top Three Failure Items:* 
*Year 2005:*
the main failure items were Headlight Aim,Rear Lamps and Reg Plate Lamps and Front Suspension
*Year 2004:*
the main failure items were Headlight Aim, Rear lamps and Reg Plate Lamps and Registration Plates 
*Year 2003:*
the main failure items were Bodywork, Headlight Aim and Registration Plates 

So focus on the problem, your aim.


Fog lamps: Unless the conditions require them (fog or snowing) switch them off. (front and rear)
Spot lights should only be lit with full beams and should go off with dipped lights.

And finally:


Mr2 said:


> I think there great. I put mine on a lot. I do require them to drive safetly home, I don't know what it's like in the cities but I drive from the outskirts of a big town to my house 15 miles away. In the rain, fog, darker evenings, etc, dip beams are not enough. This way I haven't hit many pot holes, knocked anybody down etc. I get my light focus regulary checked and the rest of my lights.


 
The logic in this is that you are travelling at an inappropriate speed! Try dipped lights and a slower pace and see how many more pot holes you can 'miss'.


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## tallpaul (7 Nov 2007)

MrMan said:


> TBH I leave mine on cause I like them and I don't get flashed to turn them off.


 
How in God's name do you see your fog lights when you are sitting in your car?????????????  

I've read some stupid things on AAM over the years but the attitude of 'I break the law because the lights on the front of my car that I can't actually see but in my mind's eye are aesthetically pleasing to me so sod off all other drivers' is one of the best...


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## Carpenter (7 Nov 2007)

I think this thread is right up there with the classic: "Jazzy Plates" saga...oh those heady days...........


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## Graham_07 (8 Nov 2007)

Crugers said:


> So focus on the problem, your aim.


 
Saw a sign like this in the gents at a hotel once 

For what it's worth, have looked up the manufacturer manuals as provided with the cars from both of the G_07 household's cars, both of which have OEM bumper fitted white glassed, white bulb'd lamps on them below the main headlamp clusters. The controls for each of these are on the lighting stalk and the icon is an ellipse with horizontal lines sloping from top right to bottom left intersected by a vertical line . In the manual, this icon , described as "Front Fog Lights" it says :-
" Switch on the exterior lights and turn the rotary fog light switch up one position. The indicator light in the instrument cluster will illuminate when the front fog lights are in use. The front fog lights should be used only when visibility is considerably restricted by fog, snow or rain."

The instruction for the rear fog lights continues after that with the addendum :-
" The rear fog lights may only be used when visibility is restricted to less than 50 metres and must not be used when it is raining or snowing"

Incidentally both cars are original Irish market cars. So either I have a major manufacturer supplying spot lights on their cars here and describing them as fog lights or the definition of fog lights and spot lights is not as clear as has been postulated in some earlier posts.


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## Mr2 (8 Nov 2007)

Front driving lights can be used in fog, snow, rain or where conditions require them (when it's dark), provided they focused they will only light up the road directly in front of the car. The rules of the road say you can use them once they dont hamper others, ie. keep them focused.

Your rear fog lamp should only be used when it's foggy. 

If you look at your switch for additional lights, you can turn on the front driving lights with out activating the rear fog lamp but you cannot activate the rear fog light with out activating the front driving lights (if you car is fitted with them).

I looked up my wifes manual when I got home, it was in the book as "Front driving/fog light", it said that the front driving lights can be used as I stated at the start of this post but also when it is foggy and the rear fog lamp is activated the front driving lights will act as front fog lamps.


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## Purple (8 Nov 2007)

There is no reason to have your front fog lights on if there is no fog or falling snow. They are not spotlights, they are not yellow and if you use them when you are driving in normal conditions you are doing so because you think it looks good. The argument that they help to see potholes is laughable; utter rubbish.
Low front lights that come on automatically with the headlights are not the issue. Low fitted lights that you turn on from the dashboard when your other lights are on are the issue. Once again; these are not spotlights, they are fog lights.
The facts and the law has been covered and covered well. Those who argue that it's ok to use them, or that they in some way help them to drive, in normal conditions are choosing to ignore reality. 
They do cause glare for other road users and it is a pig ignorant thing to do.
If you are content being pig ignorant and breaking the law then continue to use them, if not and you want to behave like a grownup then stop.


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## MrMan (8 Nov 2007)

> How in God's name do you see your fog lights when you are sitting in your car?????????????
> 
> I've read some stupid things on AAM over the years but the attitude of 'I break the law because the lights on the front of my car that I can't actually see but in my mind's eye are aesthetically pleasing to me so sod off all other drivers' is one of the best...



I may seem stupid to you, but I am comfortable in the knowledge that I can make a truthful statement and not have to explain myself to those who choose a moral high ground when their argument is floundering. I do feel that it is unnecessary to make such remarks as it is for purple to claim



> If you are content being pig ignorant and breaking the law then continue to use them, if not and you want to behave like a grownup then stop.



Both of you feel that you are right in this debate, that does not however make you right or intellectually superior.


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## Caveat (8 Nov 2007)

Purple said:


> There is no reason to have your front fog lights on if there is no fog or falling snow. They are not spotlights, they are not yellow and if you use them when you are driving in normal conditions you are doing so because you think it looks good. The argument that they help to see potholes is laughable; utter rubbish.
> Low front lights that come on automatically with the headlights are not the issue. Low fitted lights that you turn on from the dashboard when your other lights are on are the issue. Once again; these are not spotlights, they are fog lights.
> The facts and the law has been covered and covered well. Those who argue that it's ok to use them, or that they in some way help them to drive, in normal conditions are choosing to ignore reality.
> They do cause glare for other road users and it is a pig ignorant thing to do.
> If you are content being pig ignorant and breaking the law then continue to use them, if not and you want to behave like a grownup then stop.


 
Oh stop beating around the bush and say what you mean will you?


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## Mr2 (8 Nov 2007)

[broken link removed]

Rules of the road as I said before as regard Spot light/ driving lights.


Purple: The argument that they help to see potholes is laughable; utter rubbish.

SO your saying light's don't help me see better in the Dak!


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## Hoagy (8 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> [broken link removed]
> 
> Rules of the road as I said before as regard Spot light/ driving lights.


 
The link you posted to above seems to contradict you, as does the 'Rules of the Road'


'You 
*must *use fog lights only in dense fog or falling snow. Turn them off in
clear weather or you will risk causing glare or dazzling other drivers.'
​


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## Caveat (8 Nov 2007)

Hoagy said:


> The link you posted to above seems to contradict you, as does the 'Rules of the Road'
> 
> 
> 'You
> ...


 
Could this actually be the end of the discussion then?


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## Mr2 (8 Nov 2007)

It says when fitting spot lamps, take care not to increase risk to other drivers. 

My light don't dazzle.

From a safety point of view, if I can see more road with my lights, I may save a life.


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## Purple (8 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> Purple: The argument that they help to see potholes is laughable; utter rubbish.
> 
> SO your saying light's don't help me see better in the Dak!


You really aren't getting this are you? It's not about lights in general; it's about fog lights. If you have spot lights on your car (I presume these are on the roof and you use them for bird spotting or something  ) that's your own business. If you think that your fog lights are spot lights you are mistaken (and a few other things that I won't mention ).


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## Duplex (8 Nov 2007)

It's illegal to drive in non foggy conditions with your fog lights on period.  Try driving in the UK with them on, and you will be pulled over and cautioned by a member of the constabulary for inconsiderate driving.


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## Crugers (8 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> ...My light don't dazzle...


 
How do you know?

Do all the drivers who come towards you tell you this or is it the lack of complaints from oncoming drivers that has you convinced?

And again, lights are not 'focused', lights are aligned or aimed!


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## cole (8 Nov 2007)

Front spots/fog lights don't bother me, I've never been dazzled by them, it's the characters who drive with the rear fog lights on in pefect conditions that get's my blood boiling.


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## Dowee (8 Nov 2007)

Mr2 said:


> From a safety point of view, if I can see more road with my lights, I may save a life.



I can see more of the road if I turn my bright head lights on, however that doesn't mean I'm going to drive around with them on all the time. So my adivce is turn off your fog lights as it's illegal if there's no fog and start a thread about "spot" lights if you wish to carry on discussing them.


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## bullbars (9 Nov 2007)

I have been reading this topic & havent given it too much thought until I actually noticed the amount of drivers on the M50 last night with front & rear fog lights on. I flashed my lights at one woman, who just pulled in to the slow lane and gave me a dirty look ( I drive a jeep so she'll probably be on here later ranting about some arrogant 4x4 driver, the usual). Some front fogs aren't too bad, I suspect they are marketed as fog lights but in actual fact are only mild spot lights that light up the road lower down. I have many sets of high power spots on my jeep but never use them on main roads. I also drive on unlit narrow roads & appreciated the fact that the more light you have the better, just reserve your spots until you get on to these roads.


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## Carpenter (9 Nov 2007)

Glad that's all sorted then.


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## Teabag (12 Nov 2007)

Is the remake of the 'The Fog' any good ? I saw it on the DVD shelves recently.


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## GeneralZod (12 Nov 2007)

I haven't seen it but I'll offer an opinion anyway. It's rubbish or so I read.


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## Cahir (13 Nov 2007)

Teabag said:


> Is the remake of the 'The Fog' any good ? I saw it on the DVD shelves recently.



No, it's rubbish.


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## Carpenter (13 Nov 2007)

Teabag said:


> Is the remake of the 'The Fog' any good ?


Haven't the foggiest....


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## Jock04 (14 Nov 2007)

soon be lost in the mists of time


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## Carpenter (14 Nov 2007)

Jock04 said:


> soon be lost in the mists of time


 
I'm a little "unclear" about what that means.....


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## bullbars (14 Nov 2007)

I thought I knew what that meant but my judgement is a little clouded this morning.


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## Niallman (15 Nov 2007)

I'd been drifting in and out of this thread for the last few days and would have to say it bugs the hell out of me seeing people driving with their fogs on unnecessarily. I have only fell like posting now though as I had to drive from Dublin to Longford and back last night and it was unbelievable how many people had their fog lights on and yes, they are ALL dazzling and I'm sure they're not all out of alignment. It was raining and the roads were wet bouncing the light straight into on-coming drivers eyes. Its also additionally blinding when you have to wear glasses.
Theres no need to have them on, if you feel you need to, then your regular dipped headlights need to be re-aligned. Have a bit of consideration for other road users.


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## z105 (15 Nov 2007)

> vbmenu_register("postmenu_519576", true);
> Frequent Poster
> Posts: 100
> 
> ...


 
Do you have Bullbars on your jeep ?


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## bullbars (15 Nov 2007)

No I dont....may I ask why or is it going to start another 4x4 bashing session?!
I do have bullbars on a jeep I use for working/offroad/modifying


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## z105 (15 Nov 2007)

> No I dont....may I ask why or is it going to start another 4x4 bashing session?!
> I do have bullbars on a jeep I use for working/offroad/modifying


 
No no, I was just wondering why the need for bullbars ? Weren't they designed for collision with animals (and I don't mean Rats, Hedgehogs etc !) the likes of Kangaroo, Bison, Buffalo, Moose etc Experimental studies show that a collision with a pedestrian with bullbars in place is twice as damaging as with a jeep without them fitted. Prob a bit off topic so just ignore my rant !!


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## oopsbuddy (27 Nov 2007)

Niallman said:


> I'd been drifting in and out of this thread for the last few days and would have to say it bugs the hell out of me seeing people driving with their fogs on unnecessarily. I have only fell like posting now though as I had to drive from Dublin to Longford and back last night and it was unbelievable how many people had their fog lights on and yes, they are ALL dazzling and I'm sure they're not all out of alignment. It was raining and the roads were wet bouncing the light straight into on-coming drivers eyes. Its also additionally blinding when you have to wear glasses.
> Theres no need to have them on, if you feel you need to, then your regular dipped headlights need to be re-aligned. Have a bit of consideration for other road users.



For those fog light users who are still unconvinced, try a little test! On any road, lit or unlit, drive along with dipped headlights and no fogs, then switch the fogs on and try and notice any significant difference. If there is no real difference, why continue to annoy other road users with them? If there is a real difference, acknowledge that they must be so bright that they do cause difficulties for oncoming motorists (its like driving towards a car with 4 headlights on, not 2). We have covered the fact that it is illegal to use them when there is no fog, but lots of things are illegal and very little action is taken against, so it must become a conscious choice to use them or not. Consult your local garage or knowledgeable motor factor as to what are the best (brightest) bulbs you can use in your car, then have them properly aligned and keep them clean, and you should have all the light you need.


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## shnaek (27 Nov 2007)

oopsbuddy said:


> and keep them clean.



That's a good point. I always give my car lights a wash before a long journey, even though I don't wash the car that often. It's amazing the difference it makes.


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## eggerb (12 Dec 2007)

I decided on my way home tonight that I was going to post on AAM after passing dozens of cars with their front fog lights unnecessarily on. It looks like the discussion has already happened.

A quick read of the thread would suggest to me that there is general consensus that rear fogs lights are dangerous in all conditions but foggy ones, a lot of drivers find *front fog lights* at the least annoying and sometimes dazzling. Additionally, the use of flogs lights when not necessary is illegal but some choose to consider to use them because they "like them and don't get flashed to turn them off".

I, for one who is regularly dazzled by unnecessary front fogs lights, am going to to lobby those in a position to enforce or bring about enforcement of existing laws. In the meantime, should I start to flash those who have never been flashed to turn them off as this seems to be one argument the offenders have in persisting with their inconsiderate behaviour or is this just lowering one's self to their standards? So, *to flash or not to flash*, that is the question ...



Pique318 said:


> I always drive with my fogs on and no-one I've met has ever flashed their lights at me to indicate they were being dazzled.


 


MrMan said:


> TBH I leave mine on cause I like them and I don't get flashed to turn them off.


 


Mr2 said:


> Is flashing someone not illegal? I'm sure just as I was about to meet a car and it flashed me out of the blue, that sure as hell would dazzel me.


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## MrMan (12 Dec 2007)

> I, for one who is regularly dazzled by unnecessary front fogs lights, am going to to lobby those in a position to enforce or bring about enforcement of existing laws



Power to the people, I must find this stretch of road where all of the dazzling lights are produced by just those with front spot lights. I think the against arguments are getting a little lame and overly picky.


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## Jock04 (12 Dec 2007)

MrMan said:


> I think the against arguments are getting a little lame and overly picky.


 

Since un-necessary use of foglights is prohibited under the Road Trafic Act, it doesn't really matter how lame or picky some people's arguments are. 
Guess it's the same as mobile phone use whilst driving - it suits me to ignore the law, so I will.


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## eggerb (12 Dec 2007)

MrMan said:


> ... I must find this stretch of road where all of the dazzling lights are produced by just those with front spot lights....


 
I'm not suggesting that *all* dazzling is caused by front fog lights. What is apparent is that some dazzling is caused by inconsiderate motorists who use fog lights when they are not necessary. Such behaviour would seem to be contrary to legistation governing road traffic i.e. illegal. Let us not try to justify illegal behaviour on the grounds that "it wasn't only me sir".


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## MrMan (12 Dec 2007)

I don't think this 'debate' has any more legs really, some of us believe there is a difference between spots and fog lights, some believe fog lights are a blight on the road and the rest of us don't care.


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## Duplex (12 Dec 2007)

MrMan said:


> I don't think this 'debate' has any more legs really, some of us believe there is a difference between spots and fog lights, some believe fog lights are a blight on the road and the rest of us don't care.


 
It's illegal to drive in non foggy conditions with your fog lights on.  Its also inconsiderate and asinine.


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## MrMan (12 Dec 2007)

> [It's illegal to drive in non foggy conditions with your fog lights on. Its also inconsiderate and asinine.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Are you adding something new to the debate aprt from the word asinine?


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## Purple (12 Dec 2007)

It's a good word and does raise the tone though...
It's also correct.


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## Buddyboy (12 Dec 2007)

I agree, jolly good word.

I used to gripe about front fog lights as well, untill I realised that they did not in fact dazzle me at all (since the beam is splayed downwards and does not shine far forwards). I just liked griping (note to self - another new years resolution on the list )

What does dazzle me is the use of rear fog lights, especially on cars that have two of them. If I am driving behind one, I find it hard to see their brake lights.

Another thing I have seen more frequently, is a few cars with 21w bulbs in thier back lights (rather than the correct lower wattage ones). It looks like they have their brake lights on all the time. Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed this?


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## shnaek (12 Dec 2007)

Fog light brigade is an anagram for Bad Hitler Fog Gig.
It is also an anagram for A Gerbil Dogfight.
Ponder that one. 
And peace will follow.


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