# Time to lift the 5km/20km restriction?



## Eureka101 (23 May 2020)

Can’t help but think this is counter productive to the business’s that are allowed to open.
I’d like to visit my closest hardware store which is about 10km but as it stands i still cannot until 8th June.!
And if I apply the logic ‘well it’s only advised’ then I may as well begin applying that logic to everything else. ( which I’m not Btw.! )
Then come 20th July when travel restrictions will supposedly be lifted and we can move freely whilst living alongside the virus, what is it that will be so different then compared to now?
Of course we all want this to be over but I currently cannot see how different things will be in 8 weeks and feel we need to be trusted to start to get our country moving and living again.


----------



## odyssey06 (23 May 2020)

The 5km distance applies to exercise and socialising. 
If the hardware store, or opticians etc is 10km you can go.


----------



## Eureka101 (23 May 2020)

Is going to buy plants and flower pots counted as an essential journey then? And if that store doesn’t have the item in stock but the next closet branch of that store ( 25km away does but beyond the limit.. ) therefore a wasted journey for myself and the business. Or walking along a deserted beach 200km away less risky than visiting a homeware ( sorry hardware.. ) store? 
Not intentionally being contrary but can you see my point in even having the restriction and therefore the dilemma it causes?
It just brings up so many additional contradictions and uncertainty that I fail to see the relevance.
Common sense and trust required maybe?


----------



## joe sod (23 May 2020)

Eureka101 said:


> Of course we all want this to be over but I currently cannot see how different things will be in 8 weeks and feel we need to be trusted to start to get our country moving and living again.



I dont think they can keep up this level of restrictions very much longer anyway, people will just ignore them, the guards have said that many are becoming unenforceable. When they began lifting the restrictions last Monday it was a bit ridiculous to be so dogmatic about differentiating between hardware and homeware, big mistake. The social media mob have become tired of the corona virus lockdown so probably wont bother with the naming and shaming they were doing at the start of the whole thing.


----------



## Eureka101 (23 May 2020)

The moral dilemma shouldn’t be on the public. Is this good for the nations mental health?
The summer will be gone before we know it, the clocks will roll back and this will all feel twice as bad then...
Our health service and the nation have done themselves proud in all of this. Our Taoiseach has been all but invisible throughout and has left it to Dr Holohan to lead our country with graphs and charts.
Where is the public engagement?


----------



## odyssey06 (23 May 2020)

Eureka101 said:


> Is going to buy plants and flower pots counted as an essential journey then? And if that store doesn’t have the item in stock but the next closet branch of that store ( 25km away does but beyond the limit.. ) therefore a wasted journey for myself and the business.



If the shop is open and has an item you can't get closer, it's one of the permitted journeys, at least that's my understanding of the current phase.
The km limit has no bearing on shopping.


----------



## Eureka101 (23 May 2020)

Great, maybe I’ll head up to IKEA in Belfast then, whilst driving past all the unfortunate Irish owned homeware stores here and the ROI tax paying IKEA store in Ballymun...
The only reason all homeware stores were prevented from opening here was because they wanted to prevent IKEA here opening up due to fears of large crowds..
Our roadmap needs to be adjusted as its starting to unravel, or maybe that’s just me....


----------



## Sophrosyne (23 May 2020)

The Taoiseach is steered by public health advice.

"As the risk of the second wave of the virus is a possibility, public health advice is that three weeks is allotted from one phase to the next, to ensure the virus stays under control between each phase.

Mr Varadkar added there is a risk that the country would have to go back a stage if that happens."


----------



## Eureka101 (23 May 2020)

I’ll do my best then not to get infected as I drive around the country doing essential shopping....
So as the title suggests, is it time to lift the 5km/20km restriction? And then on the 8th June move to phase ‘Common sense and trust?’


----------



## joe sod (23 May 2020)

Sophrosyne said:


> Mr Varadkar added there is a risk that the country would have to go back a stage if that happens."



thats what he said but there is no way they can do that,  they will just stick to the conservative plan they have in place or speed it up, that was the reason why they were so conservative in the first place because they know they cannot go backwards. Even if their was a big second wave, highly unlikely ,they would never be able to lock everything down again. This is a one off that can never be repeated although there will be lingering measures that could take a long time to completely extinguish.


----------



## Baby boomer (23 May 2020)

Eureka101 said:


> Is going to buy plants and flower pots counted as an essential journey then? And if that store doesn’t have the item in stock but the next closet branch of that store ( 25km away does but beyond the limit.. ) therefore a wasted journey for myself and the business. Or walking along a deserted beach 200km away less risky than visiting a homeware ( sorry hardware.. ) store?
> Not intentionally being contrary but can you see my point in even having the restriction and therefore the dilemma it causes?
> It just brings up so many additional contradictions and uncertainty that I fail to see the relevance.
> Common sense and trust required maybe?


There are two popular misconceptions at work here.

First, the (now) 5km limit applies *ONLY* to exercise and gatherings of 4 people out of doors.  It does *NOT* apply to shopping, caring, medical appointments, going to the bank/ATM or any of the other permitted reasons for leaving your house.

Secondly, there is *NO* requirement that your journey to buy flower pots and plants is _*essential*_.  Or even reasonable.  Nor is there any requirement that you buy them at the nearest open location.  You are absolutely allowed drive past any amount of other open outlets and make your purchases in the outlet of your choice, even if it's hundreds of km away.

For some reason, journalists consistently get this wrong.  They shouldn't.   It's not that difficult to understand.

It also doesn't help that the government keeps on conflating the legal position and recommendations.  There is a big difference between saying_ *"You are not allowed"*_ and _*"We strongly recommend you don't..." *_However, these concepts appears to have lost all meaning.  This appears deliberate.  (Remember all the times we were told over-70s were not *allowed* leave home.)  This is not a grown up way to do responsible citizenship.  I am quite happy to comply with reasonable recommendations (whether I'm obliged to or not) and I exceed them in many cases eg only going supermarket shopping every 10 days or so.  

But I expect to be told the truth by my government as to what precisely the law is.  I don't think that's unreasonable.


----------



## Silvius (23 May 2020)

The 5k restriction is causing a lot of pain and the 20k won't be much better and I can't see the logic of it. I'm sticking to it btw, just finding it extremely frustrating.


----------



## Steiny (24 May 2020)

This is all nonsense and people in Ireland are going to look back at this in 6 months time and wonder what the hell it was all about. Every other country in Europe is opening up faster. The bottom line is the testing and tracing is not where it should be. We no longer have a health service just an under subscribed covid-service and a civil servant with a medical degree is running the country in lieu of an actual government.


----------



## confused12 (24 May 2020)

I agree it should be lifted. The purpose of a lockdown is not to eradicate the virus, but to stop the health service from being overwhelmed, a target that has been easily realised. I think the Irish government has lost sight of this.


----------



## IsleOfMan (24 May 2020)

If I drive in my car 20 kms to a scenic location....I am in my car with no contact with anyone else (unless a Garda stops me, not wearing a mask, asks me for my drivers licence, handles it with the same gloves that he has used to handle many others, then hands it back to me) what is the problem?

I get out of my car and walk my walk. Is this any different to doing this within 5 kms of my home?


----------



## Eureka101 (24 May 2020)

No, it isn’t any different in my mind.
Surely the same protocols of respiratory etiquette, social distancing etc have the same relevance whether within 5km or 500km. 
We must start living alongside this virus whilst doing all we can as responsible citizens to reduce the chance of infection.
Is it safer to travel to unlimited shops without any restriction on distance versus visiting a family member or close friend in another county whilst practicing the social etiquette?
This distance restriction is such an obvious contradiction and must be removed ASAP.


----------



## odyssey06 (24 May 2020)

Eureka101 said:


> No, it isn’t any different in my mind.
> Surely the same protocols of respiratory etiquette, social distancing etc have the same relevance whether within 5km or 500km.
> We must start living alongside this virus whilst doing all we can as responsible citizens to reduce the chance of infection.
> Is it safer to travel to unlimited shops without any restriction on distance versus visiting a family member or close friend in another county whilst practicing the social etiquette?
> This distance restriction is such an obvious contradiction and must be removed ASAP.



It is about measures to reduce and limit the spread of the virus, none of which are 100% effective but cumulatively make an impact.

If you are infected and are spreading it, the distance limit is about limiting the spread of your infections to one location cluster, rather than setting up a chain that spreads out across the entire country.

Every encounter you have is a risk, social distancing & respiratory etiquette is about reducing the risk and about only taking the risk when necessary such as for shopping or work or needed exercise. But it's not 100% effective, or rather 100% of the people are not going to be 100% effective at it.

In some countries you could only shop 2-3 times a week. The measures in different countries have the same goal but are limited by the capacity of what the authorities can enforce. There is no contradiction in goal, there are always going to be anomalies in what is enforceable.


----------



## odyssey06 (24 May 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> If I drive in my car 20 kms to a scenic location....I am in my car with no contact with anyone else (unless a Garda stops me, not wearing a mask, asks me for my drivers licence, handles it with the same gloves that he has used to handle many others, then hands it back to me) what is the problem?
> I get out of my car and walk my walk. Is this any different to doing this within 5 kms of my home?



I think it's more a case of how can any of what you said be verified or enforced.


----------



## joe sod (24 May 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> The measures in different countries have the same goal but are limited by the capacity of what the authorities can enforce. There is no contradiction in goal, there are always going to be anomalies in what is enforceable.


 
thats very true, but is there also a time limit on how long they can enforce what they can enforce ? therefore even if it is not scientifically the right time they still need to relax so as to keep the population on board. When people see every other country relaxing much earlier they want to know why not in Ireland especially as the infection never got out of control and most of the hospitals are now empty.


----------



## Eureka101 (24 May 2020)

I agree, but unless this restriction contradiction is made ‘a thing’ this week before the ‘lesser spotted Leo’ appears virtually unannounced on tv this Friday for his thrice weekly cameo, then we can all look forward to another 6 weeks of not being able to visit friends and family beyond 20km....


----------



## Sophrosyne (24 May 2020)

Baby boomer said:


> But I expect to be told the truth by my government as to what precisely the law is. I don't think that's unreasonable



Legislation, including the 5k travel restriction is contained in S.I. No. 121/2020 - Health Act 1947 (Section 31A -Temporary Restrictions) (Covid-19) Regulations 2020


----------



## Baby boomer (24 May 2020)

Sophrosyne said:


> Legislation, including the 5k travel restriction is contained in S.I. No. 121/2020 - Health Act 1947 (Section 31A -Temporary Restrictions) (Covid-19) Regulations 2020


Yes, I'm well aware of that.  And of the three subsequent SIs that amended it.  There are a couple of problems though. 

Firstly, the government keeps contradicting what's in the SIs.  The classic example being the over-70s.  Also the concept of a necessary journey.

Second, the Government are remarkably slow to publish the SIs.  Typically, they're not published until some time during the day they're actually in force. This leads to the remarkable situation that citizens have no way of knowing what the law actually is! Statements by ministers explaining the yet unpublished SIs are invariably misleading.  Journalists are worse than useless and confuse matters even more.
When the SI is eventually published, it claims to have been made a few days previously.  If this is the case, why was it not published at the time of making?  

Thirdly (and on fairness this is a problem with much Irish legislation) the SIs are now very hard to follow.  Later SIs amend earlier ones, sections are added and deleted, and, to work out what is and is not permitted, would require having both documents open and extensive cross referencing between them.  It would have been much simpler to make and publish a consolidated version of the Regulations.  

Putting it all together, it seems like there is a deliberate policy of muddying the waters and making it difficult or impossible for citizens to know what the law is.  This is just wrong in principle and is undemocratic in nature.


----------



## michaelm (24 May 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> If I drive in my car 20 kms to a scenic location.... I get out of my car and walk my walk. Is this any different to doing this within 5 kms of my home?


I suspect that the 5 km limit is intended to prevent half of Dublin turning up in Glendalough for their walk. 

The unwind plan (and this Government) has long jumped the shark.  Time for a fast-track easing . . 1m social distancing . . masks on public transport and in shops . . test anyone arriving in Ireland and deliver a result within 24 hours . . 6th class should be back in school in June . . pity they made a snafu of the LC, that should be going ahead as scheduled in June . . if ICU nears capacity then implement a short lockdown until levels drop again, rinse and repeat.


----------



## odyssey06 (24 May 2020)

michaelm said:


> I suspect that the 5 km limit is intended to prevent half of Dublin turning up in Glendalough for their walk.



It would have seemed reasonable to me to have one limit in cities versus rural areas, when you think of the amount of people\services in a 5km radius in Dublin or Cork versus 10-20 radius in Mayo, for example.
But probably hard to define \ legislate, so they went with the conservative figure.


----------



## joe sod (24 May 2020)

@michaelm yes you are right, I dont understand the current strategy even from a government point of view, they have been widely commended by their handling of the corona virus situation up to now with Leo Varadker being probably at the height of his popularity, however they look like they are about to "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory".


----------



## odyssey06 (24 May 2020)

joe sod said:


> I dont understand the current strategy even from a government point of view, they have been widely commended by their handling of the corona virus situation up to now with Leo Varadker being probably at the height of his popularity, however they look like they are about to "snatch defeat from the jaws of victory".



I think one of the factors in us being slower is the constraints on testing - unless you want to run the risks the UK are running.

For comparison, in France the radius is 100 kms.
_Under France's lockdown all non-essential journeys were banned and every trip outside the home - even just to the boulangerie to get a baguette - required a permission form... Prime Minister Edouard Philippe said that a permission form (attestation) would no longer be needed when leaving the house, except for journeys of more than 100km. Journeys of more than 100km can only be taken for "imperative" reasons, such as family emergencies and vital work reasons._


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (26 May 2020)

I have a stock excuse ready if I am caught “I am just testing my eyesight”
Except maybe if I have doubts about my eyesight I shouldn’t be driving


----------



## Sunny (26 May 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I have a stock excuse ready if I am caught “I am just testing my eyesight”
> Except maybe if I have doubts about my eyesight I shouldn’t be driving



Just make you put your young child that you were trying to protect in the first place in the back seat while driving to test your eye sight. Also, make sure you drive to a beautiful scenic town and just get out for a minutes to see how the eyes react. Also good to this on a day that just happens to be your wifes birthday.


----------



## allaround (26 May 2020)

the virus is suppressed in the community, I would think in phase 2 a further loosening of the restrictions will occur, however, this would obviously be predicated on figures continuing on the downward slope


----------



## Leper (26 May 2020)

Sunny said:


> Just make you put your young child that you were trying to protect in the first place in the back seat while driving to test your eye sight. Also, make sure you drive to a beautiful scenic town and just get out for a minutes to see how the eyes react. Also good to this on a day that just happens to be your wifes birthday.



Brilliant!


----------



## skinnylegs (27 May 2020)

With regard to  RyanAir's decision to begin flights on July !st, how does this marry with government restrictions on travel within the country. 
Could you book a holiday in Spain but be stopped by a Garda on the way to Dublin Airport from say Cork or Galway?


----------



## faketales (27 May 2020)

The 2km/5km restriction made sense when we were on full lockdown. Exercise was the only non essential reason to leave home and the feeling was 2km or 5km hopefully gave everyone somewhere to exercise and prevented crowding at beaches, parks or scenic spots. Of coarse it wasn't very fair for example I have multiple dedicated walking or cycling paths and a park within 5km but my parents only have country roads which are getting busy again. However people got the message generally.It also stopped people moving to holiday homes and spreading the disease.

Now that garden centers, electrical and hardware stores are open it seems contradictory that someone can go browse at one of these stores anywhere they like but not see a family member 10km away. The rules at least appear to be more arbitrary. 

The distance has been frustrating for me as I was away from Dublin (home) for a few days to visit my girlfriend down the country and we went into lockdown. It made sense to stay as I could WFH, wanted to be with her and I wasn't sure I was permitted to drive back to Dublin. Thus I have been without a lot of my stuff for a few months. Its not essential but it would make life more comfortable for sure. I would love to have my bike . I could go pick it up without any interaction with anyone. I'm sure similar (or being apart) must have happened to other couples who don't live together or close. I'm surprised I have not heard more about it to be honest. I am sure many people just took a chance and traveled but its got to be putting a strain on relationships that's more important than a few flowers.


----------



## odyssey06 (27 May 2020)

Michael Martin questioning need for the limit.








						Micheál Martin says there is 'no serious justification' for the 5km and 20km limit
					

Decisions on any changes to the roadmap will only be made after 5 June, Varadkar said today.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Drakon (1 Jun 2020)

My understanding of the 2km restriction as it was, and the 5km restriction as it currently is, applies to exercise only. 
Stay At Home, but you are permitted to exercise once per day within 5km of your home. 
But, if you’re doing a weekly shop and the supermarket is 7km away, go for it. 
Or if there is a family emergency 15km away, go for it.
Or if you must go to work and your commute is 20km away, go for it.


----------



## Baby boomer (1 Jun 2020)

Mostly correct but there's no restriction to one time per day to leave your home for exercise.  The once a day thing is in the UK legislation not ours.


----------



## llgon (1 Jun 2020)

Drakon said:


> My understanding of the 2km restriction as it was, and the 5km restriction as it currently is, applies to exercise only.



The 5km limit also applies to small groups meeting outdoors:

'Groups of up to 4 people who are not from the same household can meet outdoors. This can include a family meeting an individual friend or neighbour, a group of individuals meeting outdoors, and two couples meeting outdoors.'





__





						Public health advice in place right now
					






					www.gov.ie


----------



## odyssey06 (5 Jun 2020)

Reports that from Monday the limit will change to within your county or 20km.








						All travel restrictions within Ireland to be lifted on 29 June
					

Cabinet have signed off on an escalation of the government’s roadmap today.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## Purple (5 Jun 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> Reports that from Monday the limit will change to within your county or 20km.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Great if you live in Kerry, bummer if you live in Louth. Lauth is particularly bad as it's small and there's nothing nice in it anyway ;D


----------



## Baby boomer (5 Jun 2020)

Purple said:


> Great if you live in Kerry, bummer if you live in Louth. Lauth is particularly bad as it's small and there's nothing nice in it anyway ;D


It's Karmic revenge on Louth people for inflicting on us the worst accent in the entire world.


----------



## Drakon (6 Jun 2020)

The “within your home county” restriction is to scupper the plans of those with holiday homes, I assume.


----------



## odyssey06 (9 Jun 2020)

Note that according to the Irish Times, the within your own county \ 20km has no enforcement power attached and so is effectively advice only:








						Covid-19: Gardaí lose enforcement powers over movement restrictions
					

Latest provisions do not contain a penal penalty for breaching movement restrictions




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Drakon (9 Jun 2020)

They’d (unofficially) stopped enforcing it anyway a few Mondays ago anyway. Apparently they’re enforcing SD in shopping queues now?
Did my “big shop” yesterday evening. It was back to normal, mostly. 
No queueing, no SD, no sanitising. 
Was there 10 mins before I saw someone in a mask. Checkout staff behind screens alright though.


----------

