# Tenant late with rent numerous times.



## shootingstar

Can i get a bit of advise here please? 

Married family moved into my house mid Aug 07. They have been late a few times with rent. I allowed R/A and i signed their FIS forms etc. not sure what to do here now... she text me this morning stating her husband is now fully out of work and that i need to call to them to sign more forms for the social welfare officer. i live just over an hour from them so i said it would be the weekend or they could post up today for me to review (and sign) and i`d post it straight back. She got a bit snotty with my txt and said well the rent is gona be late so! 

I informed her under no circumstances can rent be late AGAIN! and that i would write to her giving her notice of termination if it wasnt in the bank next monday.

Can i just add - Im a very good landlady to her... I bought her a brand new washing machine because the old one was a bit crappy but in working order. Her son tore down a glass cabinet in the hall which i said nothing about and i had to drive down to her to take it away!!! Her rent has been late now 3 times and shes only in the house since aug. I also cut the lawn for her every 2 weeks at the beginning because she said she didnt have the money for a lawnmower. (not too sure what she plans on doing next summer)

So, if her rent is late next monday do i serve her notice or am i being a bit cranky? In the least its states she can be served with 5 days notice. She signed this with no problem... 

Please advise

Thanks 

SS.


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## ClubMan

What does the lease agreement (if any) say about this? What do the _PRTB_ allow?


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## shootingstar

ClubMan said:


> What does the lease agreement (if any) say about this? What do the _PRTB_ allow?



It states i can serve them 5 days notice. I havent called the PRTB yet... Should i? 

i need my rent the same way the mortgage co need my mortgage repayments each month. 

What should i do?


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## Miles

If it were my house I would serve her with notice. Not sure that 5 days is sufficient even if it is in your lease agreement though. The norm is 30 days as per guildlines from PTRB or Threshold.

It is your house, you paid the stamp duty, paid your tax on the rental income and paid the PTRB to register the tenancy. Too often landlords are taken for a ride with absolutely no come back.


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## Bob_tg

SS - I think you have to allow both time and cost for managing the situation.  If you can't afford the time, then maybe use a courier or taxi to tranport the documents up and down the same day.  If she has not agreed in the lease to cut the lawn, then it's up to you if you want to maintain the property.  If she's regularly late with the rent, then set up direct debit, or call around for the cash on a weekly basis.  Any which which way, there can be a lot of unanticipated time and cost involved in managing residential lettings.

Bob


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## pc7

from a personal opinion I would serve them with notice, as they are only there since aug 07 and have been late with the rent the last 3 times (its only been 3 months so 100% late). Serve them with notice, as they are there such a short time 28 days in enough, or have them agree that all cheques issued will be directly to you. The whole thing sounds like a nightmare, good luck with it. 

Length of tenancy Notice by landlordLess than 6 months 4 weeks (28 days) 6 months to a year 5 weeks (35 days)1 – 2 years 6 weeks (42 days) 2 – 3 years 8 weeks (56 days)3 – 4 years 12 weeks (84 days)4 years or more 16 weeks (112 days)


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## mdebets

Where they just a few days late or how late were they?
If they were just a few days late, I wouldn't throw them out, at least they are paying.
If you throw them out, you have to find new tenants, which will cost money and you are not sure if you'll find new ones without a break in occupation, which also means no rent for this time.


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## shootingstar

thanks for all opinions.. i do appreciate it

*Bob tg *- i think u need to go back and read my post again. You may have misread a few things there. 




As for them being late with rent, it was only a few days to be fair. but has happened a few times. If i decide to go ahead i`ll certainly give them more than 5 days notice, they have 4 young kids in the house with them. 

Another Q - Is the deposit for breakages only or can i use it for rent? I`d be against using it for rent as i`d have no come back when they move out etc. (as in theres no money to allow for any damages and they`ll simply move on allowing me to pick up the tab).


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## shootingstar

just to note - they pay by DD every Monday. I asked for it to be paid monthly but she wanted weekly. I agreed to this. Rent has gone in each monday but its bounced again a few days later because of insufficient funds in her account. 

(im not bumping up posts - i forgot to add this in my previous post)


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## NHG

GET RID ASAP - once they are in the house six months its nearly impossible to get them out. If you have problems now what chance will you have once they are in the house six months. 

PRTB is a laugh - only another money making machine.  The landlord seems to have no rights anymore.


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## ClubMan

NHG said:


> The landlord seems to have no rights anymore.


Not true:

[broken link removed] 
PRTB - Tenants Rights & *Obligations*
[broken link removed]


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## shootingstar

I sought advise only an hour ago from my solicitor. Hes going to write to them for me (FOC) informing them that although we accept they are in a sticky situation they have until the 12th Nov to pay up in full or they will be served with 5 days notice.

I do feel a bit sick doing this...


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## DonKing

shootingstar said:


> I do feel a bit sick doing this...



ShootingStar you have absolutely nothing to be sick about. You have every right to expect to be paid on time. The fact that she'e getting snotty with you on the phone and says "well the rent will be late" says alot about her. I would get rid of her myself and you need to do it quickly.

The reality is, if they stop paying the rent, it could take you many months to get them out. The prtb, health boards, gards etc. won't be rushing to help you get them out.

I wouldn't accept a RA tenant again. I think you have a higher chance of getting tenants who couldn't give a damn about you, your rent or your property. My prefernece would be for European Non Nationals.


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## z103

> just to note - they pay by DD every Monday. I asked for it to be paid monthly but she wanted weekly. I agreed to this.



That's your mistake there. 

She's obviously lodging the social welfare cheque into her account. You should ensure that she gives this directly to you each month, and signs the back of it.


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## shootingstar

leghorn said:


> That's your mistake there.
> 
> She's obviously lodging the social welfare cheque into her account. You should ensure that she gives this directly to you each month, and signs the back of it.



Leghorn.... Your post has knocked me off my feet. Do you mean to tell me that the R/A cheque should be paid directly to me??? I was NEVER aware of this!!! Holy Sh...


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## truthseeker

shootingstar said:


> I do feel a bit sick doing this...


 
Dont feel a bit sick - this is a business agreement. If you were selling a car and someone wouldnt hand over the cash when they said so you wouldnt feel bad for not selling it to them.

You have a tenant who made an agreement with you to rent your property for a set price and pay the money on a set day each week. The tenant is not upholding their side of the arrangement. So you get rid of them and get a new tenant. Sure - there may be valid reasons why the tenant has money troubles, but in the relationship you have with the tenant this is not your concern. Youre not running a charity here.

Good luck to you with it - you sound like a very reasonable landlord, I hope you get some better tenants.


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## updadubs

Totally agree with NHG, get rid of them, its too early for any rubbish to occur, you have obligations to the bank and the PRTB are way too slow. Get them out now, dont listen to people about goin without rent and having to replace people.. thats just crap.. you need control of the situation even if cost you... wondering if you will get rent is in my opinion while someone avails of the facilities is a worse situation than knowing you wont. Throw then out


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## shootingstar

Thanks so much. Ive had a few sleepless nights over this, this week. My solicitor drafted a letter for me... see below.... 

....... 
With reference to the letting herein I cannot relax the terms of rent payment as you request. If you make arrangements to forward forms to me for signature I will of course review them and sign and return them if appropriate. I expect that if you are now applying for further/full rent allowance that arrangements will be made for the relevant cheques to be forwarded directly to me from the HSE. 

You signed a letting agreement however and I expect the terms of it to be met one way or the other. You have been late twice with rent payments (24th Sept 07 & 10th Oct 07).Your suggestion that you expect rent to be late next Monday is not welcome as I have mortgage payments to make without any concessions.




Yours faithfully
.......


I posted this letter yesterday to them. Actually my morning was going ok until i logged in here and had to think about it all over again. I wish this wasnt happening to me. I dont think im cut out ot be a stern L.Lord. Im hoping it`ll quietly go away i suppose.... I know there gonig to get the letter today so she`ll be ringing me later this morning. Theres no way i can pick up the call to her. What will i say???? 

SS


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## Caveat

Maybe easier said than done SS, but I would remain (or at least attempt to reamin) dispassionate about the whole thing - don't engage with her on argumentative tangents (which *will* arise).

She probably won't like the tone of the letter but there's absolutely nothing confrontational in the contents.  

If she gets all annoyed simply and quietly ask her exactly what her problems are with the letter - her problem will probably just turn out to be that she recieved a letter at all.  She will sound incredulous as to why you have engaged a solicitor - I would simply state that you wish to keep things "business-like and official".

Good luck - and keep calm!


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## NHG

I have a couple of social welfare tennants.  The social welfare payment comes in every thursday directly into my bank account and the tennant then lodges the top-up amount in weekly (1 lady monthly as she has a pension coming in from the states monthly).

Like you I would prefer my rent monthly, but the social welfare will only do it weekly - but no problem its there every thursday morning when I log into my a/c.  Even at christmas the double amount will be paid in before the holidays,  its sure'r than a regular tennant.  Social Welfare also pay part of the deposit for the tennant.

Why should you go down to sign papers (yes, we all do it for an easy life and to make sure we get paid) - but its up to her to get the paperwork to you.  Don't be under any complement.

Make sure that all utility bill's are in her name and not yours or you could be left with a nice little tail there as well.


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## updadubs

Pick up the phone when she calls, dont shy away from it, u should be furious, they are messing with your business, tell them you've had enough and you want them out,  as your legally entitled to, make a date for them to leave and agree that you will move new tennants in the next day and hang up.


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## shootingstar

caveat & NHG - thanks for the help here. Its really appreciated.  I was worried about them having 4 little`uns in the house with them etc. So basically i need to _shut down_ from it as such. 

If she calls me i will inform her that if she is staying on she must immedately arrange for the RA to be paid into my acc immediately. She text me again last night asking that i call down to sign these forms. I text her back saying get in the car and drive the hour to me and ill sign them once reviewed. She said she has no money for petrol because she pays a sky high f*"#ing rent!!!! They knew full well what the rent was moving in. If she couldnt afford it then they shouldnt have moved in. Im renting them a 4 bed 3 yr old bungalow on nearly an acre. its divine with lovely gardens etc and school right next door in the country. they pay 196.00 a week...... ya wouldnt get it anywhere else!!! Grrrr


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## shootingstar

updadubs said:


> Pick up the phone when she calls, dont shy away from it, u should be furious, they are messing with your business, tell them you've had enough and you want them out,  as your legally entitled to, make a date for them to leave and agree that you will move new tennants in the next day and hang up.



Sorry i just saw your post now... 

I`ll admit im sorry now i sent the letter, i should have just booted them out but in fact ive now given them an opportunity to pay up in full by next Monday. So if they do, thats fine.... until the next time. My hubby to be said to me last night "what will happen when they ring you 2 weeks before x mas stating they`ve overspent on prezzies & cant pay their rent...? What you going to do then, give them a 3rd chance is it?".... oh god. 

Now that ive sent the letter do i need to stand over it?


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## z103

> Leghorn.... Your post has knocked me off my feet. Do you mean to tell me that the R/A cheque should be paid directly to me??? I was NEVER aware of this!!! Holy Sh...



I think you've picked me up wrong there.

The cheque is made payable to the tenant. If the tenant signs the back of it, a third party can lodge it. You shouldn't be letting the tenant cash the cheque, or they'll end up spending it. Especially around Christmas.


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## shootingstar

oh ok thanks leghorn...

Just to update everyone.... The tenant contacted me via text. She`s absolutely fuming at me over my letter and told me shes moving out and shes wants her deposit back NOW! I told her, her moving out final date was nov 8th. i told her i will post today her letter of termination and a reference. i said i couldnt be fairer than that considering shes not paying rent etc. 

I feel totally relieved i have to say..


So now i have an unoccupied 4 bed bungalow on nearly an acre in north cork for rent. ANY TAKERS GUYS...????  

Mods - dont ye go locking my thread im only trying to cheer myself up.


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## truthseeker

shootingstar said:


> oh ok thanks leghorn...
> 
> Just to update everyone.... The tenant contacted me via text. She`s absolutely fuming at me over my letter and told me shes moving out and shes wants her deposit back NOW! I told her, her moving out final date was nov 8th. i told her i will post today her letter of termination and a reference. i said i couldnt be fairer than that considering shes not paying rent etc.
> 
> I feel totally relieved i have to say..
> 
> 
> So now i have an unoccupied 4 bed bungalow on nearly an acre in north cork for rent. ANY TAKERS GUYS...????
> 
> Mods - dont ye go locking my thread im only trying to cheer myself up.


 
I assume you will hold onto the security deposit until you have inspected the property for damage?

Well done - dont feel a bit bad over it, as you said yourself, she knew what the rent was when she moved in, its not like she was forced, she could easily have gone elsewhere. Youre doing business here, all thats happened is a business agreement has been terminated.

Roll on new reliable tenants!


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## pc7

make sure and change the locks when you've given the place the once over. dont give back the deposit until then!


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## shootingstar

truthseeker said:


> I assume you will hold onto the security deposit until you have inspected the property for damage?
> 
> Well done - dont feel a bit bad over it, as you said yourself, she knew what the rent was when she moved in, its not like she was forced, she could easily have gone elsewhere. Youre doing business here, all thats happened is a business agreement has been terminated.
> 
> Roll on new reliable tenants!



Actually im feeling a bit stronger now i must say... Yes i have informed her that ill be calling next thurs night to inspect same and only then will i refund deposit etc. ive asked my neighbour to join me... hes nasty looking. 

My next Q - can someone draft me a letter of termination. I have no idea what to say. Shes been given notice today (1st nov) to move out on the 8th nov. sorry i must sound completely thick. Its my first time letting out the house. I`ll be better second time round....


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## sam h

As per the other posters....DO NOT give the deposit back until you hve inspected the place fully and charge her for any damage (I reckon from her attitude, there will be some).  You would be quite entitled to charge her for the unit her son broke (unless you already told her otherwise).  Make sure you take all the ESB  & gas readings with her present and ensure she knows it is her responsibility to notify the utility companies.  Take any outstanding rent out of the deposit also.  Give her a letter detailing everything above.

Best of luck with your next tenant!


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## truthseeker

google "sample tenant letter of termination" and check the box for pages from ireland only - plenty of hits.


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## shootingstar

Thanks. im learning more and more as i go on. Another thing.... i have paid 70.00 to the PRTB, am i entitled to deduct this from Deposit as a result of her breaking her letting contract with me? 

I`ll have to pay them another 70.00 when i put another tenant in there


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## sam h

No, the PRTB has nothing to do with her (but you will be able to claim it as as an expense on your tax returns.  If the €70 is all you'll be out of pocket, you'l be doing well.


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## shootingstar

Thank you Sam-h. 

My father is now coming with me next thurs to change the locks. I cant wait to get it over and done with....


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## aircobra19

Renting a place is easy. So once a tenant starts making it difficult I think you should serve notice. Very easy to let things slide and they come back to bite. Ditto the other way around if a landlord is acting up.

Would people say it usual to supply a lawnmover for a rented property or would it be better to arrange a service company to do it. 

Where a landlord can't or is not willing to be "hand on" what are peoples thoughts about using a letting agency.


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## Lauren

Shootingstar...Why are you giving her a reference?


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## shootingstar

Hi Lauren.

I told her i`d give her a reference because i dont want any bad blood. I dont want her wrecking my house that i worked hard for. I just want to pasify her if im to be totally honest... it might help her get another house quicker or a council house maybe.... i dont know... she has 4 smallies and a lazy ass husband


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## RainyDay

shootingstar said:


> I also cut the lawn for her every 2 weeks at the beginning because she said she didnt have the money for a lawnmower. (not too sure what she plans on doing next summer)


Did the lease agreement clarify responsibility for grass cutting?


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## Marcecie

shootingstar said:


> caveat & NHG - thanks for the help here. Its really appreciated.  I was worried about them having 4 little`uns in the house with them etc. So basically i need to _shut down_ from it as such.
> 
> If she calls me i will inform her that if she is staying on she must immedately arrange for the RA to be paid into my acc immediately. She text me again last night asking that i call down to sign these forms. I text her back saying get in the car and drive the hour to me and ill sign them once reviewed. She said she has no money for petrol because she pays a sky high f*"#ing rent!!!! They knew full well what the rent was moving in. If she couldnt afford it then they shouldnt have moved in. Im renting them a 4 bed 3 yr old bungalow on nearly an acre. its divine with lovely gardens etc and school right next door in the country. they pay 196.00 a week...... ya wouldnt get it anywhere else!!! Grrrr



Actually you will get it else where, I rent a 1 year old 4 bed bungalow with 2 acres and a deck overlooking the lake to SW tenants for €150 per week, they are with me 5 years now and no problems so the luck of the draw as I also had  non SW tenants and had a nightmare time with them, rent late house messed etc.


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## Marcecie

shootingstar said:


> Hi Lauren.
> 
> I told her i`d give her a reference because i dont want any bad blood. I dont want her wrecking my house that i worked hard for. I just want to pasify her if im to be totally honest... it might help her get another house quicker or a council house maybe.... i dont know... she has 4 smallies and a lazy ass husband




I just wonder if you give her a great reference and she causes lots of problems for next landlord and they find out the problems you had!!!!!!!!!!!!! iI better stop there or you will never rent again with the worry.


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## sam h

Would anyone really pay any attention to a written reference??  I don't even ask for one as they could type one up themselves.  I reckon the best way is to rent property out directly (no agency) as you get to met the people and ask loads of questions while they view the property: who they are, why they are moving, where they work etc.  This gives you a better feel for the tenant than any piece of paper with words on it!  

Out of curiousity, can a landlord come back on a previous landlord if they find out they lied about a tenant on a reference?


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## NHG

Do Not return the Deposit (or Balance of Deposit) until they are actually gone out of the house.  You cannot be sure how things will pan out untill they are actually gone out of the house totally.

Some tennants (not all) even have the cheek to leave some of their possesions in the house for a week or two thus stopping you being able to rent out immediately.

You did the right thing.


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## shootingstar

I think your right about the reference letters. i`ll retract that anyway for starters. 

As regards the grass cutting - its in their contact that they maintain the exterior etc. I didnt mind cutting it though as i had just bought a ride-on mower and she said she couldnt afford a lawn mower. I didnt ask her about this just as we were signing lease and she sadi she`d sort one. I believed her in good faith.... anyway... 

Im not going to hand over ay deposit until ive contact esb, phone etc and make sure meters are read and they have notified the companies accordingly. I posted their letter of termination yesterday. 

Do you think i should write to them informing them of the procedures next thurs, as regards checking bills, meter readings etc and all appliances in good working order... 

I cant help but think something is lurking in the background and that i have trouble on my hands next Thurs. we`ll see...


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## sam h

Yeah....put it all in writing, such as:

"As per your letter of termination, I expect the property to be vacated by XXpm 8/11/07.  The deposit will be repaid in full next Thursday subject to the following conditions being met:
 - Rent is fully up to date, all out standing rents will be taken from the deposit.  Rent due currently stands at €XXX
 - The property being return in the clean & good condition (baring normal wear and tear)
 - All applicances are in working order
 - All fixtures and fitting are in perfect condition
 - All sets of keys are return (x number of set expected)
 - All of your property should be removed from the property by XXpm or there will be a charge to remove and dispose of any remaining property.
 - We will both take a reading for the ESB & gas on Thursday.  Please be aware it is your responsibility to notify the utility companies of your move.
 - Please refer to your contract to ensure you are fully aware of your obigations."

By the way, I would expect to provide a lawnmower if you expect a tenant to cut the grass.


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## shootingstar

sam h said:


> Yeah....put it all in writing, such as:
> 
> "As per your letter of termination, I expect the property to be vacated by XXpm 8/11/07.  The deposit will be repaid in full next Thursday subject to the following conditions being met:
> - Rent is fully up to date, all out standing rents will be taken from the deposit.  Rent due currently stands at €XXX
> - The property being return in the clean & good condition (baring normal wear and tear)
> - All applicances are in working order
> - All fixtures and fitting are in perfect condition
> - All sets of keys are return (x number of set expected)
> - All of your property should be removed from the property by XXpm or there will be a charge to remove and dispose of any remaining property.
> - We will both take a reading for the ESB & gas on Thursday.  Please be aware it is your responsibility to notify the utility companies of your move.
> - Please refer to your contract to ensure you are fully aware of your obigations."
> 
> By the way, I would expect to provide a lawnmower if you expect a tenant to cut the grass.




i have practically copied n`pasted your post onto a letter today. Thank you for that. They owe me a few bob for 1 or 2 other things aswell, which i have drafted in letter also. The letter was simple and bullet pointed so there should be no confusion on Thurs eve when i call to them. I also stated deposit will not be returned till Fri at 1pm as appliances and various have to be checked... am i wrong to do that? I dont think so, letter is sent anyhow so theres no going back now...

I dont think i should provide a lawnmower... the same way i expect them to keep my house clean - but i dont provide cleaning products.


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## swordshead

shootingstar said:


> I dont think i should provide a lawnmower... the same way i expect them to keep my house clean - but i dont provide cleaning products.


A lawn mower in my opinion should be provided by the landlord. Anyone who rents is not goin to drag a lawn mower around from house to house,its the same as you providing a cooker, washing machine, beds etc. Its a reasonable request from any tenant,as long as they do they upkeep if it is provided!


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## shootingstar

swordshead said:


> A lawn mower in my opinion should be provided by the landlord. Anyone who rents is not goin to drag a lawn mower around from house to house,its the same as you providing a cooker, washing machine, beds etc. Its a reasonable request from any tenant,as long as they do they upkeep if it is provided!



fair point but im still not parting with my ride-on mower. Its something ill have to give a bit of thought to. Ands its definately something ill discuss next week when im viewing out the house to people. 

off the record, the plumber who came out to look at the washing machine said to me that every landlord should have it in the lease that the tenant is responsible for any "breakdowns" to appliances during their tenancy. What are peoples views on this? IM ALL BLOODY FOR IT!!!!


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## truthseeker

shootingstar said:


> off the record, the plumber who came out to look at the washing machine said to me that every landlord should have it in the lease that the tenant is responsible for any "breakdowns" to appliances during their tenancy. What are peoples views on this? IM ALL BLOODY FOR IT!!!!


 
Im against it. As a former tenant, if Id been expected to pay for appliance repair I would have rented elsewhere. Would you expect them to pay for repairs and then leave the appliances behind when they leave?


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## shootingstar

truthseeker said:


> Im against it. As a former tenant, if Id been expected to pay for appliance repair I would have rented elsewhere. Would you expect them to pay for repairs and then leave the appliances behind when they leave?



Im not sure truthseeker, was just putting out the feelers. I had never thought about it till he said it. suppose i would be for it... go on shoot me!!


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## Seagull

It depends on what you're considering a breakdown, and what is acceptable wear and tear. If I was expected to sign a lease where I was responsible for all breakdowns to electrical goods, I would expect them to be new at the start of the lease. I certainly wouldn't take responsibility for repairs to e.g. a washing machine where I don't know it's age or how it's been treated by previous tenants.


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## sam h

This comes down to wear & tear v's misuse.  If you have a 5 year old washing machine where the drum goes....landlords problem.  If the breakdown is caused by the underwire from a bra (one of the most common problem so I'm told by my plumber), then it's the tenants problem.  

A way to get around the grass problem is to add on a premium for the grass, which you will take off if they undertake to do the gardening themselves....haven't tried it myself, just an idea!


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## Caveat

shootingstar said:


> fair point but im still not parting with my ride-on mower. Its something ill have to give a bit of thought to. Ands its definately something ill discuss next week when im viewing out the house to people.
> 
> off the record, the plumber who came out to look at the washing machine said to me that every landlord should have it in the lease that the tenant is responsible for any "breakdowns" to appliances during their tenancy. What are peoples views on this? IM ALL BLOODY FOR IT!!!!


 
You seem perfectly reasonable Shootingstar, but as a former tenant myself in many flats etc (as a student) I would say that in my experience, and the experience of many I knew, tenants had more cause to be suspicious of landlords than vice versa - zero maintenance, not turning heating on, witholding of deposits stating wear and tear reasons that already existed...etc etc.

I know some people can and do wreck the place, but anyone I knew actually left their places in a _better_ condition than they found them in!

Everyone renting that I knew at the time just assumed their landlord was going to be lazy, neglectful, chancer... etc etc.

Basically, what I'm saying is if the stipulation you mention was in effect I would never have considered renting from such a landlord - I can't imagine too many prospective tenants would be enticed these days either.


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## swordshead

Landlords need to be reasonable with their requests as much as tenants need to be mindful of the landlords property! If i was leasing a place that i owned i would expect that i would have to maintain the general up keep of the place i.e. painting, gardening etc. If you want the tenants to do the grass provide a simple and cheap lawnmower with the house and state it to the tenants before they move in that grass cutting is required, just dont expect it to be done IMO. If i was a tenant i expect to have appliances in proper working order and not expect to pay for them if they breakdown, why should i pay for fixing something that i technically dont own?


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## shootingstar

Thanks everyone, all points taken. as i said just kinda putting out the feelers. its my first letting and i called it wrong... 

we live and learn. I`m not a chancer by any means, just looking to hopefully work most of it to my advantage..??? My new neighbour was telling me she got rid of her 2 rental houses because the pressure of it is awful...! She said its a headache...


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## truthseeker

shootingstar said:


> Im not sure truthseeker, was just putting out the feelers. I had never thought about it till he said it. suppose i would be for it... go on shoot me!!



hahaha - no intention of shooting a shootingstar 

I think its a case of all parties being reasonable, if as a tenant I was responsible for breaking an appliance Id expect to pay for it, but if one day the washing machine broke down due to no fault of my own Id expect the landlord to pay to fix it.

You sound like a reasonable person Shootingstar, perhaps in your interview process for your next tenant you hold out til you get someone you feel comfortable with.

Put yourself in the tenants shoes - if they do keep the place in reasonable order and pay the rent on time - then they would expect a landlord who plays ball equally with them?


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## NHG

In any of my properties that have lawns (small lawns),  I have an electric mower left in the garage.  I often wonder where I stand if someone gets injured using the mower as I own it.

With regard to repairs on appliances, I have it in the lease that after 6 mths the tennant is responsible for repairs from misuse etc.  In the houses where anything is old'ish and starts to gives trouble I replace it with a new one.  I have never charged a tennant for any repairs to appliances.

Best of Luck and I hope everything turns out well for you its not easy, but you have to look at it as a business.


----------



## shootingstar

just to update everyone. Tenants are now screaming at me down the phone calling me a callous cold B*tch. She said how could i put her 4 children out on the street coming up to christmas. 

to cut a long story short.... i basically told her this is business and she simply cant live in my house rent free... 7pm this coming Thurs is their dead line to be out. I asked her to make sure the house is given back in the same condition etc... i did also say to her that im very offended at her name-calling. I told her never in my wildest dreams did i think i would ever have to make such a difficult decision. Im only human too and its been very hard for me... she was hysterical on the phone to the point that she had to hang up to vomit!!!! (she told me this when i called her back later now)......


----------



## Stifster

shootingstar said:


> just to update everyone. Tenants are now screaming at me down the phone calling me a callous cold B*tch. She said how could i put her 4 children out on the street coming up to christmas.
> 
> to cut a long story short.... i basically told her this is business and she simply cant live in my house rent free... 7pm this coming Thurs is their dead line to be out. I asked her to make sure the house is given back in the same condition etc... i did also say to her that im very offended at her name-calling. I told her never in my wildest dreams did i think i would ever have to make such a difficult decision. Im only human too and its been very hard for me... she was hysterical on the phone to the point that she had to hang up to vomit!!!! (she told me this when i called her back later now)......


 
Be strong. Tell her Christmas in your house starts on the 8th of December. Next it'll be "On Halloween Week of all things..."


----------



## aircobra19

You just got unlucky with these tenants.


----------



## NHG

As above posters said, keep strong and keep focused.  Its a business you are running not a charity.

You are doing the right thing.  What would it have been like if they had been there over 6 mths - you would never get them out and once it goes to threshold or the PRTB the tennant seems to always win especially where there are children involved.

I have been through worst (my dad's life was threatened - and we had witnessess who were interview by the guards etc ) and the guards are dealing with it and it has not got a hearing yet from the PRTB even though it fitted into the 7 day's notice anti-social behaviour catagory and that was last March!  Luckily the guy's family got him to move out, but I did'nt inform the PRTB yet in order to see how long it will take for the case to be heard (my solicitor thought it would be a good idea to se what way they work).   

You will be so relieved when this is behind you.


----------



## Mel

shootingstar said:


> off the record, the plumber who came out to look at the washing machine said to me that every landlord should have it in the lease that the tenant is responsible for any "breakdowns" to appliances during their tenancy. What are peoples views on this? IM ALL BLOODY FOR IT!!!!


 
When i was renting previously, i always found that the appliances in rented houses were the reject ones from the landlord/lady's own house - they were always ancient and always breaking down, especially the washing machines. If I had been liable each time one broke down _I'd _have been broke! 
Then again, if you rent a house by the room to 6+ students it's going to get a lot of use. 
One landlord left me 2 months with a washing machine that kept breaking down, and I had a baby of less than a year old at the time, the machine was on its last legs and the landlord would do a patch job, then one wash later it was gone again. Lovely people, but it was really hard to cope with that with a small baby.

edited to add - a family member rents a couple of houses, and has only had good tenants - one does get through washing machines like they were boxes of cornflakes, but my relative jsut replaces them as otherwise they are good. I hope this works out ok for you in the end.


----------



## Afuera

shootingstar said:


> just to update everyone. Tenants are now screaming at me down the phone calling me a callous cold B*tch. She said how could i put her 4 children out on the street coming up to christmas.
> 
> to cut a long story short.... i basically told her this is business and she simply cant live in my house rent free...* 7pm this coming Thurs is their dead line to be out*. I asked her to make sure the house is given back in the same condition etc... i did also say to her that im very offended at her name-calling. I told her never in my wildest dreams did i think i would ever have to make such a difficult decision. Im only human too and its been very hard for me... she was hysterical on the phone to the point that she had to hang up to vomit!!!! (she told me this when i called her back later now)......


Be careful here. I just noticed that you only gave them a weeks notice to vacate the property. As far as I know, your notice of termination is invalid, as you should have given them 28 days. I hope they don't throw that back in your face and refuse to move out next Thursday (they would be legally entitled to do this). If that happened you would have to send out a valid termination notice giving them another 28 days and would unfortunately drag this episode out further.


----------



## hmmm

7 day notice for a family to leave? Appalling. It doesn't matter what your lease says, the tenants have rights which supercede this lease and unless the rent is over 28 days overdue they are entitled to their fully notice period. I have to say I find your attitude as expressed in your expectations for tenants to supply lawnmowers and fix appliances really reflects the lack of professionalism that is shown by many landlords in this country. Do you think being a landlord involves purely watching the money enter your account? 

In case you were thinking of doing so, I would strongly suggest you do not try to enter the house next Thursday without taking some legal advice.


----------



## ClubMan

If the previous posts are accurate then you really should be getting professional advice on these matters - and maybe not posting here where your tenants may be reading too!


----------



## Bronte

One acre of grass to cut is a lot, I can't see many tenants being able to manage this.  I recommend that for the next tenancy you state clearly who is responsible for it.  Personally I'd find out the cost of getting a professional to cut the grass and increase the rent to cover this amount if need be. 
I also think in this case it might be a lot easier to get rid of your tenant if you change tack, are very nice to her, sympathetic with her plight while emphasing that you have to pay the mortgage and tell her you'll give her all her deposit back without any inspection.  Believe me this is the cheaper option.  Otherwise she might decide she now has nothing to lose by just staying there.


----------



## truthseeker

hmmm said:


> 7 day notice for a family to leave? Appalling.


 
hmmm - if you read back through the posts the OP actually didnt ask the tenants to leave at all - the tenant told the OP that she was moving out:



shootingstar said:


> Just to update everyone.... The tenant contacted me via text. She`s absolutely fuming at me over my letter and told me shes moving out and shes wants her deposit back NOW!


 
They were offered the choice to actually pay the rent and the response was that the tenants chose to leave.

shootingstar I do not think you should feel bad over this, as other posters have said, this is a business, not a charity. 

You have already sought legal advice (from previous posts), Im sure that whatever way you conduct this is in accordance with the advice you received?

On the abusive phonecall from the tenant - Im surprised you stayed on the phone - I would have stated that this was unacceptable behaviour and that you would speak to her when she could keep a civil tongue in her head.


----------



## Mel

On the grass-cutting - I remarked to my relative once that there was a lot of upkeep in 2 large lawns and hedging on top of own house, and he said that it was a good way to keep an eye on the place without annoying the residents - you pop in regularly and can see pretty clearly how well the place is being kept. Just something to keep in mind.


----------



## shootingstar

truthseeker said:


> hmmm - if you read back through the posts the OP actually didnt ask the tenants to leave at all - the tenant told the OP that she was moving out:
> 
> 
> 
> They were offered the choice to actually pay the rent and the response was that the tenants chose to leave.
> 
> shootingstar I do not think you should feel bad over this, as other posters have said, this is a business, not a charity.
> 
> You have already sought legal advice (from previous posts), Im sure that whatever way you conduct this is in accordance with the advice you received?
> 
> On the abusive phonecall from the tenant - Im surprised you stayed on the phone - I would have stated that this was unacceptable behaviour and that you would speak to her when she could keep a civil tongue in her head.



Truthseeker thank you so much for your post. its very re-assuring... 

Again, this was my first letting. My solicitor had the lease drawn up for me. The 5 days notice came from him, not me. I had no idea at the time how it worked. They signed the lease based on all the conditions including 5 days notice. 

I also believe no other landlord would tolerate this from their tenants, they would simply give them notice full stop. I have given them a few opportunities to pay rent. I gave them options each time. 

I did tolerate her abusive phone call, I didnt want to put the phone down on her. She was very distressed and i wanted to calm her down. I dont like to see anyone in such a panic state but there was nothing i could... I was actually apologising to her !!!!!! I dont normally have confrontations with people so this did knock me off my feet a bit. 

My neighbour from down there rang me last nigt asking what was happening. I said how do u know about all this and he told me that their kids in the school said they were leaving on Thursday... Oh my god i nearly fell over. But what can i do...

Clubman - im not going to get into it but i can assure you there not reading these posts.

Also i got a quote from the local gardiner down there he quoted me 70.00 per cut!!! Argh.... im going to purchase a lawn mower this weekend for the house... im seriously broke !


----------



## truthseeker

shootingstar, if your solicitor is handling the legal end of things and you are following his/her legal advice then all you need worry about are your own personal feelings on the situation.

From what you have described here it sounds to me like you are being perfectly reasonable. You do not have a relationship with these people beyond business. Yes, its sad that a family have to move out, yes, its close to christmas, yes, its sad that some people have financial problems etc.... but at the end of the day none of this is your fault. You dont hold any responsibility to these people beyond a business relationship. From what you have stated here you have upheld your responsibilities as a landlord.

You have asked questions regarding grass cutting/appliances etc... Every landlord has to start learning somewhere. There is a first time for everyone.

You have a responsibility to ensure that you are acting in accordance with the law - again, presumably your solicitor is on the case with this.

This is not a situation that has occured out of the blue. You have had problems with these tenants, and it has now reached a point where you need to terminate the arrangement. If thay had abided by the terms of the arrangement in the first place they wouldnt be in this position.


----------



## Afuera

shootingstar said:


> My solicitor had the lease drawn up for me. The 5 days notice came from him, not me. I had no idea at the time how it worked. They signed the lease based on all the conditions including 5 days notice.


This is definately illegal and your solicitor should know better than that. You can't specify a notice period in the lease that is shorter than those specified in the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. From what you have said though, it appears that the tenants have accepted the short notice and are getting ready to move. If they didn't accept it though they could create a whole lot of problems for you. I'd advise you to get a new solicitor to draft your next lease.


----------



## Afuera

truthseeker said:


> From what you have stated here you have upheld your responsibilities as a landlord.


One of the obligations of the landlord is to give adequate notice. This has not been done here. If they took this to the PRTB they would certainly rule in favour of the tenants on this.


----------



## truthseeker

Afuera said:


> One of the obligations of the landlord is to give adequate notice. This has not been done here. If they took this to the PRTB they would certainly rule in favour of the tenants on this.


 
The OP acted on the advice of her solicitor. 
Who in this case is responsible if an error is made - the OP or the solicitor?


----------



## shootingstar

Afuera said:


> This is definately illegal and your solicitor should know better than that. You can't specify a notice period in the lease that is shorter than those specified in the Residential Tenancies Act 2004. From what you have said though, it appears that the tenants have accepted the short notice and are getting ready to move. If they didn't accept it though they could create a whole lot of problems for you. I'd advise you to get a new solicitor to draft your next lease.



Hi Afuera.... yikes!!  i assume your a solicitor? ok so your telling me the 5 days notice shouldnt have been submitted right? 

i know very little about the law but i would have assumed that 28 days could be given for notice once the lease has been abided by each party and 5 days if the lease has been broken. The tenant has broken their agreement so am i not within my rights? Will definately give solicitor a call after lunch all the same though... 

Just to confirm they pay weekly and not monthly. dont know if this helps...


----------



## Afuera

truthseeker said:


> The OP acted on the advice of her solicitor.
> Who in this case is responsible if an error is made - the OP or the solicitor?


Ultimately the OP is responsible for their property, not the solicitor. If the PTRB became involved the case would be taken against the OP and any fines would be payable by them. All landlords should know what their obligations and rights are... there's definately a case to be made for introducing a licensing system whereby prospective landlords need to pass a test before they can rent out their property.


----------



## Bronte

And maybe solicitors need to pass a test on correct notice to tenant's in leases..........


----------



## Stifster

Afuera said:


> there's definately a case to be made for introducing a licensing system whereby prospective landlords need to pass a test before they can rent out their property.


 
All that sensible talk and now you are taking the mick! Perhaps the PRTB would get the job and it would take 5 years before you get an appointment with them.....


----------



## Afuera

shootingstar said:


> Hi Afuera.... yikes!!  i assume your a solicitor? ok so your telling me the 5 days notice shouldnt have been submitted right?


Hi shootingstar, I'm not a solicitor but have had to deal with this area of the law in the past (receiving inadequate notice). In fairness, it's quite clearly explained on any of the documentation that you can obtain from the PRTB. Page 5 of the Quick Guide to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 lays it out in plain English:
[broken link removed]



shootingstar said:


> i know very little about the law but i would have assumed that 28 days could be given for notice once the lease has been abided by each party and 5 days if the lease has been broken. The tenant has broken their agreement so am i not within my rights? Will definately give solicitor a call after lunch all the same though...


7 day notice periods are only used for serious anti-social behaviour. Otherwise, it has to be a minimum of 28 days.



shootingstar said:


> Just to confirm they pay weekly and not monthly. dont know if this helps...


It makes no difference.


----------



## truthseeker

Afuera said:


> Ultimately the OP is responsible for their property, not the solicitor. If the PTRB became involved the case would be taken against the OP and any fines would be payable by them. All landlords should know what their obligations and rights are... there's definately a case to be made for introducing a licensing system whereby prospective landlords need to pass a test before they can rent out their property.


 
Yes, I understand what you are saying. 
If the OP wasnt using a solicitor then I would expect the OP to know the ins and outs of the legal aspects of being a landlord, but I assume she engaged a solicitor to advise her on these aspects.

I do think that a test for prospective landlords would be worthwhile.

From a purely rhetorical point of view - the OP could surely sue her solicitor for incorrect legal advice in the event that PTRB took a case against the OP?


----------



## Duplex

The correct procedure where the tenancy is less than six months old under The Act is; 



> The landlord may terminate with 28 days notice where the tenant is in default. If the default is non-payment of rent, the landlord must notify the tenant in writing that the rent is owing and give them 14 days to pay the rent *prior* to serving 28 days notice to quit.


 
[broken link removed]


http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2004/a2704.pdf


----------



## shootingstar

well ive given them short notice and they seem to be accepting it, even though their screaming at me.. 

Been sitting here all morning again thinking about it. I seem to do nothing else these past couple of days... and then i remembered this -  when i first showed her and her hubby the house i asked her what kind of notice did she have to give on her last place and she said "only a week, he can F off, hes a crap landlord and has done nothing for us"... How well she can give him a weeks notice but i get a slapped wrist for doing it  

My dad doesnt think i should rent it out for a while. He thinks i should have a good think about it. 

A social worker called me about 20 minutes ago on my personal mobile asking if she could speak to me regarding the tenants / situation etc i told her no way, that i was in work and i didnt want to discuss it. Im definately getting tougher as a person.


----------



## pc7

shootingstar, that comment he can f off was a signal!! Don't let it put you off there are plenty of decent tenants out there looking for a home.  Just be a little pickier next time or pay an agents fee to deal with it, it usually costs a months rent but takes the hassle from you. You could also specity professionals only and check references. Good luck with it stay strong!


----------



## shootingstar

pc7 said:


> shootingstar, that comment he can f off was a signal!! Don't let it put you off there are plenty of decent tenants out there looking for a home.  Just be a little pickier next time or pay an agents fee to deal with it, it usually costs a months rent but takes the hassle from you. You could also specity professionals only and check references. Good luck with it stay strong!



thanks pc7. I waited 2 days for her deposit because she was waiting on it from her previous LL. I cant believe i didnt think of this till now... 

Im definately sticking to my guns and if she goes to the PRTB or whereever then i`ll have to cross that bridge when i come to it... if i fall on my ass then i have my solicitor and myself to blame but at least it`ll never happen to me again. Possibly an expensive lesson to learn but it could be worse... i`ve learned a heck of a alot during this thread.


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## Afuera

I think you've been unlucky with these tenants for your first time renting, so don't let it get you down. Learn from this experience and read up on the relevant laws for your own peace of mind.


----------



## shootingstar

Afuera said:


> I think you've been unlucky with these tenants for your first time renting, so don't let it get you down. Learn from this experience and read up on the relevant laws for your own peace of mind.



good advise and thank you.. 

SS.

(will post on Fri morning to update after Thursday evening meeting with them for handing over keys etc)


----------



## truthseeker

just think of it as a baptism by fire!

you will be much more inclined to read up on a landlords rights/obligations after this experience and it will make you much more discerning about who you rent your property out to.

Dont sweat it - these things happen, the main thing is that you are dealing with it. itll soon be over and you can move on.

about PRTB etc - it might never happen, dont worry about it unless it does.


----------



## KBR

Shootingstar, I think we'll all be interested to hear how this one goes.  It sounds like you have a nice property & you should be able to choose your tenants more carefully.  I have had couples in their mid-late twenties on 3 occasions now & it has worked out fine.  You will be fine in the future, just be more careful.  I found Daft excellent as you can tell quite a bit from people's initial written emails & if you put up plenty of good photos you will have your choice of tenant.
You have been unlucky here, just be ready to have a vacant month or so and be out of pocket in order to get the right tenant.
It's obvious from the tone of your emails that you find it hard to say no to some people - I think that's all you have to do next time & you will be fine.
Best of luck with your current situation.


----------



## Trustmeh

I think the tenants have been a little unlucky here as well. Their personal circumstances got worse after they moved in - they couldnt afford to pay the rent after hubby lost job and needed the RA increased to cover rent. 
The OP/Landlord hit the nuclear option almost instantly...obviosuly no experience with RA as they would have worked with you (ever think thats why they are phoning now? sure they are slow but fair).

Did your ad for renting house generate a lot of interest? If so better luck with the next rental - take a little more time selecting someone you are happy with.  Use texting a little less next time - it doesnt strengthen your position when dealing with tenants - if you cant hack the personal touch hire an agent.


I hope that you arent under pressure to rent this house now that its empty - you dont need any extra worries - you seem to have plenty.  I hope you can afford to have the house empty for a while (take the time out to organize exactly what rules you plan to have in place for the next tenant and stick to them). If you can afford to have the house empty I would wonder why you were so quick to get rid of your family of tenants?


----------



## Trustmeh

hmmm said:


> 7 day notice for a family to leave? Appalling. It doesn't matter what your lease says, the tenants have rights which supercede this lease and unless the rent is over 28 days overdue they are entitled to their fully notice period. I have to say I find your attitude as expressed in your expectations for tenants to supply lawnmowers and fix appliances really reflects the lack of professionalism that is shown by many landlords in this country. Do you think being a landlord involves purely watching the money enter your account?
> 
> In case you were thinking of doing so, I would strongly suggest you do not try to enter the house next Thursday without taking some legal advice.




Agreed with above poster - but I do think the OP in this case realises they are an amateur landlord (werent we all once).  Hopefully she will learn from this and improve next time.
  The bad legal advice from a professional solicitor is a little scarier.


----------



## Mel

yankinlk said:


> I think the tenants have been a little unlucky here as well. Their personal circumstances got worse after they moved in - they couldnt afford to pay the rent after hubby lost job and needed the RA increased to cover rent.
> The OP/Landlord hit the nuclear option almost instantly...obviosuly no experience with RA as they would have worked with you (ever think thats why they are phoning now? sure they are slow but fair).


 
I think it was a social worker not RA/CWO - which would imply to me that there's more going on with that family than meets the eye.


----------



## truthseeker

Mel said:


> I think it was a social worker not RA/CWO - which would imply to me that there's more going on with that family than meets the eye.


 
Yes I agree, as soon as I read OPs post mentioning a social worker I thought the same. 
Its not a nice situation for the family but it is not the OPs responsibility to sort out a troubled family and allow them to be late with rent frequently, mortgage repayments still have to be made on the property and she needs reliable tenants.


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## Carolina

The notice period in the landlord's lease is illegal. 

Section 69 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 specifies:



> (2) Such an agreement to a lesser period of notice being given





> may only be entered into at, or after, the time it is indicated to the tenant or landlord (as appropriate) by the other party that he or she intends to terminate the tenancy.
> (3) For the avoidance of doubt, a term of a lease or tenancy agreement cannot constitute such an agreement.​


 
In other words, the landlord can agree a shorter notice period with a tenant at the end of a period of tenancy but not in the lease. The solicitor should have pointed this out to the landlord.​ 
The same act specifies rent payments are considered late for the purposes of the law when they are paid more than 14 days after the landlord issues a written reminder.​ 
The thread title tells us the rent has been late 'numerous times' when it appears from the solicitor's letter that the rent was late on two occasions and that there were no written reminders or 14 days of grace.​ 
The landlord makes reference to becoming a tougher person and acting in a more businesslike fashion. the implication here is that to succeed in business she must make some kind of faustian deal and abandon her humanity for the sake of profits. This is a naive view of business. Being fair with people and learning from mistakes is a more profitable policy than bullying and illegality.​ 
The questions about who should cut the grass, maintain appliances, pay for breakages and should be detailed in the lease agreement. Any omission like this can lead to dispute and misunderstanding. As the landlord drew up the agreement, it would be fair to either split the costs or favour the person who did not word the agreement - the tenant.​ 
In business in Ireland, clients who pays bills within 14 days of the due date are not considered late. A business wouldn't have any customers if it came down too heavily on this behaviour. Yes writing reminder letters is a pain but this is part of business and just a task to carry out dispassionately every monday morning. Legal route is the last resort as it is aggressive and may cause the loss of a customer, as happened to the landlord in this case.​ 
Perhaps the landlord should treat the tenant in the way that the landlord would want to be treated?​ 
In this case, perhaps the landlord should consider if she would be happy if her bank attempted to repossess her house following three late mortgage payments on foot of an illegal clause in her mortgage agreement.​


----------



## shootingstar

just reading back over various posts.... so im not going to quote anyone.

It was a social worker that called me. Yes, i believe the family have a few things going on in the background. Im going to say this and i know some of you will balk at it but anyway.... the husband isnt very nice. He was drinking all last Sunday night and the previous Thurs. I know this because the house is in a small community and it came back to me. He can drink yet cant pay the rent for the last few weeks. I dont begrudge anyone a pint but hes a regular in the local and can drink im told. Im also aware that her husband loosing his job is COMPLETELY down to himself. but i dont want to go into that... 

I have the cop on to know when something isnt right... I know this would have happened again. She complained a few times about money to me. I did actually say to her i didnt want to know about her personal affairs. And being the person i am im always kind in how i speak to people so i was never harsh at any point with her. Im never harsh to people. 

Everytime they called me up about something she commented on the rent being high.. *example* - i called a plumber out to the washing machine and he said he`d be there first thing monday morning. I told her this and she said it wasnt good enough, she had 4 kids to wash for and her husband etc.. I told her i have no control over how the plumber times things and told her maybe popping to the laundrette to tie her over might work. She hurled at me saying "i have no f-ing money for taxi`s in and out to a laundrette coz rent is huge".. 
Guys i could give you a few more i just couldnt be bothered typing it all out.

Again, Its done and im not undoing it. They have found somewhere to live im told. Will let you know tomorrow how i get on tonight with them. The hubby nerves me so my neighbour and my dad are coming with me. Enough said..


----------



## shootingstar

Carolina said:


> This is a naive view of business. Being fair with people and learning from mistakes is a more profitable policy than bullying and illegality.​




bullying? ​


----------



## swordshead

I dont think she was calling you a "bully", just not to see being "tougher in future" as to mean you would be unfriendly/unfair etc. You can be tough,in a nice way if everything is clearly spelled out at the very start. Know your rights and limitations and you wont get yourself in this type of situation in future.


----------



## shootingstar

update : 

Everything went ok(ish) last night. Tenants have moved. house very dirty. drawing all over cupboards but i know i have to allow for that etc. I ended up apologising to them and they also apologised. Plenty of things missing but i let it go.. 

I couldnt even look them in the eye for fear i`d get upset. gave them back part of deposit (less rent owed) and changed the locks. Went home and had a large bacardi!!!!


----------



## truthseeker

shootingstar said:


> update :
> 
> Everything went ok(ish) last night. Tenants have moved. house very dirty. drawing all over cupboards but i know i have to allow for that etc. I ended up apologising to them and they also apologised. Plenty of things missing but i let it go..
> 
> I couldnt even look them in the eye for fear i`d get upset. gave them back part of deposit (less rent owed) and changed the locks. Went home and had a large bacardi!!!!


 
Good. Put it behind you.
Now you can go and read up on landlords rights and obligations, make yourself fully aware of the legalities of your position.
If youre not great at personally dealing with tenants perhaps you could engage an agent to handle that end of things for you?


----------



## NHG

Thats good, just get down at weekend and get cleaning and get organised for letting it out again.

Don't be put off by your experience, count yourself lucky it could have been alot worse and I still think that you did the right thing, things were only going to get worse.


----------



## Bronte

I'm glad that's over for you shooting star.  All in all you did very well to get out of it so easily.   You'll be very good at weeding out tenant's after this experience, and make sure you always get a large deposit up front,  that the lease has all the terms & conditions  and most important check the references thoroughly.  There's loads of tips/experiences on AAM to help you become a good landlord.


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## Lauren

Glad it worked out for you in the end.....Like others have said, put it behind you and enjoy your weekend....Well done for sharing your story on the forum. It might help other people who are new to renting....


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## shootingstar

yes i definately need to brush up on my skills. have learnt alot though... Thanks a mill for the help, advise & support.... 

Great site


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## Carolina

I don't know if you are a Christian, but if you are, consider the Nativity story over Christmas and your actions in this case.

If you are confused about the meaning of bullying, it is normally defined as the abuse of power of the strong over the weak. Power may derive from wealth, intelligence or level of education. I accept that you may not have known that your actions were illegal, at first, but this became clear to you as the situation progressed and you chose to hide the fact that you had learnt that the the contract was illegal. 

If you want to be more assertive in future, please find the courage to discusss your concerns directly with your tenants rather than nuking them at the first opportunity.  There is a cost to replacing tenants. 

Deciding based on gut instinct that your tenants are bad news is unfair as it fails the reciprocity test. What if they had decided, based on gut instinct, that you were a poor landlord and then trashed your house?

I'm sure you are not a bad person but I think this kind of situation could be avoided in future by being more explicit at the start of a lease with tenants about terms and conditions and setting conditions trhat are within the law.


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## aircobra19

You're like the map reader in car, who tells the driver you should have turned left 5 mins ago. Then as its becomes apparent theres no exit off the motorway for 10 miles, add 'you should have checked this before you left'.


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## webtax

Carolina said:


> Deciding based on gut instinct that your tenants are bad news is unfair as it fails the reciprocity test. What if they had decided, based on gut instinct, that you were a poor landlord and then trashed your house?



When the tenants have damaged the property, been late with the rent, have a social worker on their case, said their last landlord could 'f**k off' and have been abusive over the phone then most peoples gut instinct would tell them only one thing! you reap what you sow, as christians will be familiar with.

I don't think it would work for her if she told the bank to consider the nativity story when she got no rent from her tenants to pay the mortgage.


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## truthseeker

Carolina said:


> I don't know if you are a Christian, but if you are, consider the Nativity story over Christmas and your actions in this case.



What has being a Christian (or not) got to do anything? The OP is not running a charitable institution - she is doing business.

It would also appear that the OP understands the term bullying and rather was questioning WHY you referred to her as a bully. I myself cannot see where she bullied anyone in this case, in fact, she gave leeway on more than one occasion of rent being late, and then offered to let them stay on if the rent was paid on time - and the tenants themselves said they wanted to leave!!

Judging by the tenants actions I think its quite clear that the OPs gut instinct had nothing to do with what happened, in fact when she met these people and agreed to the tenancy it was her gut instinct that gave them a chance in the first place!!!


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## dontaskme

truthseeker said:


> What has being a Christian (or not) got to do anything? The OP is not running a charitable institution - she is doing business.


 
I guess some people are Christians all the time and not just outside of business hours. Go figure...


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## Butter

Have to say I think the digs about being a Christian are unfair.  The tenants were bad news and the OP did give them chances.  I gave a tenant with a sob story many chances with late rent over the period of a year.  The eventual outcome was that he saw me as a soft touch and did a runner owing me three months rent.  Once bitten twice shy as they say and I have never again been as trusting of people.  I will never again be able to give tenants the benefit of the doubt due to the actions of that particular guy.  That might not be a fair thing but I won't be conned out of €3000 again.  It's not just the money it's the horrible feeling of being taken for a fool.


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## dontaskme

Marg said:


> Have to say I think the digs about being a Christian are unfair. The tenants were bad news and the OP did give them chances. I gave a tenant with a sob story many chances with late rent over the period of a year. The eventual outcome was that he saw me as a soft touch and did a runner owing me three months rent. Once bitten twice shy as they say and I have never again been as trusting of people. I will never again be able to give tenants the benefit of the doubt due to the actions of that particular guy. That might not be a fair thing but I won't be conned out of €3000 again. It's not just the money it's the horrible feeling of being taken for a fool.


 
Well, Carolina brought up the Christian aspect, but he or she also gave some sound business advice in post 90 of this thread.

Shootingstar did have dodgy tenants but he or she gave them one weeks notice to leave the house according to post 25 of this thread.


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## ClubMan

Carolina said:


> I don't know if you are a Christian, but if you are, consider the Nativity story over Christmas and your actions in this case.


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## dontaskme

ClubMan said:


>


 
yeah, admittedly if the landlady gave the 4 weeks notice (which would be legal minimum) as opposed to the 1 weeks notice in the contract (which is less than the legal minimum) the renting family would still have been evicted about 4 weeks before Christmas, which doesn't seem very Christian either...


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## ClubMan

If there is some contractual/legal issue fair enough but I don't see any justification for bringing sectarian religious views into this discussion to be honest.


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## dontaskme

I don't know if you are human but if you are please consider the story of the landlord/lady who evicted a family of 6 with one weeks notice over Xmas. How's that, Clubman?


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## ClubMan

What story is that and how does it relate to the original poster's query?


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## dontaskme

that's what this thread was about.


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## ClubMan

I missed the bit about 6 kids.


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## dontaskme

ClubMan said:


> I missed the bit about 6 kids.


 
4 kids + 2 parents = family of 6


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## jem

dontaskme said:


> I don't know if you are human but if you are please consider the story of the landlord/lady who evicted a family of 6 with one weeks notice over Xmas. How's that, Clubman?



But its not Xmas its mid November.


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## dontaskme

jem said:


> But its not Xmas its mid November.


 
Consider the story over Xmas, that's what I wrote.


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## aircobra19

dontaskme said:


> I don't know if you are human but if you are please consider the story of the landlord/lady who evicted a family of 6 with one weeks notice over Xmas. How's that, Clubman?



I don't get the impression that the tenants kept the landlord informed that the rent would be late, or that a cheque would bounce. They also didn't seem all that concerned that the rent would be late. You might think this is normal. But to me this would send warning bells that there is going to be ongoing difficulties with this tenant. Also the tenant decided to move out very fast so I would assume they have somewhere else to go. I also don't assume that because someone has a family that they won't be trouble and leave you out of pocket. The client was given notice not evicted. 

Its facile to bring religion and ethics into this. Because the tenant hasn't acted well here either IMO. Regardless that the landlord was aware of the laws and regulations, it doesn't mean that when they become aware of them, they can overlook the behaviour thus far of the tenant. Some compromise could have been work out if BOTH parties were amiable to this. That doesn't seem to be the case here.


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## aircobra19

dontaskme said:


> Consider the story over Xmas, that's what I wrote.



Bad time to expect people to pay their bills?


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## Bronte

Whatever the time of year one should pay one's bills.  What is the relevence of xmas to this story.  How does anyone on here assume the tenant or landlord is a Christian?  To those who think the landlord was incorrect in her handling of the situation I didn't notice any of you offering to take in the tenant's.  Renting property is a business not a charity.  As a previous poster said, explain to the bank I can't pay my mortgage but it's xmas so you shouldn't expect me to.......... The banks will be very 'Christian' in these circumstances.


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## dontaskme

Bronte said:


> Whatever the time of year one should pay one's bills. What is the relevence of xmas to this story. How does anyone on here assume the tenant or landlord is a Christian? To those who think the landlord was incorrect in her handling of the situation I didn't notice any of you offering to take in the tenant's. Renting property is a business not a charity. As a previous poster said, explain to the bank I can't pay my mortgage but it's xmas so you shouldn't expect me to.......... The banks will be very 'Christian' in these circumstances.


 
yeah, but if the bank expected you to pay your mortgage on the basis of an illegal clause in the mortgage contract, how would you feel?

And aircobra, why is it facile to bring ethics into this? I think it does raise ethical issues, regardless of how scummily the tenants behaved.


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## aircobra19

Because this is specifically a property Investment forum. If you start talking about ethics, or religion you drag the thread way off topic. While I have empathy for the tenants, it would seem they are establishing a pattern of behaviour thats likely to continue and degenerate. Therefore, it would be best to end the tenancy as soon as possible. Of course the Landlord should stick to the letter of the law and given a valid termination notice. Its obvious that the landlord inexperience was the cause of that.


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## truthseeker

dontaskme said:


> I don't know if you are human but if you are please consider the story of the landlord/lady who evicted a family of 6 with one weeks notice over Xmas. How's that, Clubman?


 
November is not 'over xmas'. The family were not evicted - they themselves contacted the landlord and stated they were leaving.
Would you prefer to have seen the landlord lose the house altogether because the mortgage repayments were not being met - due to the tenants not paying the rent? If that happened the tenants would lose a home AND the landlord would lose an investment.

Any reference to religion or ethics are off topic and irrelevant to this discussion.


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## shootingstar

So as regards posters judging my christianity..... is there any chance one of you "judgers" popping me a cheque in the post to cover this months mortgage and possible next months too... ? 

no???  aww go on. Be Christian...


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