# Go Safe Camera: got photo but its impossible to determine whos driving.



## CharlieR (19 Oct 2011)

Our car has been issued with a speeding fine, we could not confirm who was driving the car and asked for  copy of the photo.

Photo came out and you cannot see anything. had been raining, headlights on and you cannot see anything inside the car.

Spoke to the department and they said that the owner of the vehicle has to take the points and it is not there responsibility to prove who was driving the car.

From UK perspective as they have been there for longer the police had to prove who was driving.

Help please.


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## Ceist Beag (19 Oct 2011)

What sort of help Charlie? There is no dispute that it was your car so why should the dept/gardai have to prove who was driving it? That is for the owner of the car to either accept responsibility personally or get whoever was driving their car to accept responsibility. If the owner cannot remember who was driving the car at that particular time and place then they must accept responsibility as far as I'm concerned. How long ago was this and how hard can it be for the owner to remember who was driving it?


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## callybags (19 Oct 2011)

Given that you know the date, time, place and the fact is was raining I don't think it is credible that you cannot remember who was driving.


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## CharlieR (19 Oct 2011)

I did not know it was raining at that time, the photo shows the rain splash from the tyres, the date and time and place are on the photo and are stated in the offence notice.

As the speeding is a criminal offence, under European law the case of the owner being responsible for the crime and admitting guilt was proved wrong in the UK and cases were dismissed due to the police having to prove who was guilty. 

The innocent until proven guilty rule applies in the UK and from memory it went to the European courts for ratification as the notices sent do not allow for a  person to plead not guilty. 

If anyone can constructively give advice on the position in the need for the Garda to prove who committed the offence. 

It is our car and there could be a few people who could have been driving but as the offence took place nearly a month ago as the notice was sent out 14 days from the offence and was only received last Monday.

The help request is to do with where we stand with the position of identifying who was driving and the need for the garda to prove this.


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## T McGibney (19 Oct 2011)

If you are intending to challenge the fine on a technical point of law, you need proper legal advice.  Outlining your arguments beforehand on the internet might not be the best way to approach such a challenge.


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## Time (19 Oct 2011)

It is very probable that Irish law is at odds with European law in regards to automatically assuming the owner is driving.


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## CharlieR (19 Oct 2011)

T McGibney said:


> If you are intending to challenge the fine on a technical point of law, you need proper legal advice.  Outlining your arguments beforehand on the internet might not be the best way to approach such a challenge.



It is not so much as challenging it as it is our car but neither of us can remember who was driving the car on that day.

I am waiting for my solicitor to come back to me but in comparison, if someone is accused of committing a crime the investigation would take place before the summons was issued.

This from what I can see has not yet occurred and they offer no way of saying we do not know who it is.

We still both have UK licenses so the points etc are not an issue


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## Leo (19 Oct 2011)

You can take your chances and go to court, arguing your defence based on UK law. You will then find out that Irish legislation was drawn up differnetly and that you, as the registered owner are responsible. If (when) you are found guilty, you have the option to appeal to a higher court, ultimately taking the case to Europe if you choose to (and can find someone willing to represent you).
Leo


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## blueband (19 Oct 2011)

i think you should challenge it all the way, at least you would  know then if the law was flawed in this case.


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## SparkRite (19 Oct 2011)

CharlieR said:


> As the speeding is a criminal offence, under European law the case of the owner being responsible for the crime and admitting guilt was proved wrong in the UK and cases were dismissed due to the police having to prove who was guilty.
> 
> *The innocent until proven guilty rule* applies in the UK and from memory it went to the European courts for ratification as the notices sent do not allow for a  person to plead not guilty.



I ofter wondered about this as well.
My son used to  drive my car quite often and lets say a fine for speeding arrives in and I rememeber that he was driving on the day in question but he denies it, therefore, as far as we know, I have to absorb the fine and the points even though I'm innocent of all charges. 

Seems ridiculous, doesn't it? But as the the old saying goes......."The law is an ass......."


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## Time (19 Oct 2011)

What can they do if a registered owner showed up in court with a cast iron alibi? Not alot me thinks.


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## Time (19 Oct 2011)

> If i recall correctly you must change your licence over to an Irish one within 12 months?


There is no such law.


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## flossie (19 Oct 2011)

Time said:


> There is no such law.


 
Just read up and i was thinking of international licences. Think you need to update your Irish address on an EU one though.


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## Ceist Beag (19 Oct 2011)

flossie said:


> If i recall correctly you must change your licence over to an Irish one within 12 months?



Not true. See this previous thread. On your case in the UK flossie, how long were you there? See this site where it states you were allowed to drive on an Irish license unless you were a UK resident for more than 3 years.


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## Time (19 Oct 2011)

> Think you need to update your Irish address on an EU one though.


Can't be done. You can't put an irish address on a UK licence and the same for the other 25 EU states documents.


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## Time (19 Oct 2011)

Ceist Beag said:


> Not true. See this previous thread. On your case in the UK flossie, how long were you there? See this site where it states you were allowed to drive on an Irish license unless you were a UK resident for more than 3 years.


Again no. The DVLA don't even know the law.
You can drive on a Irish licence in the UK for as long as it is valid.


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## Guns N Roses (19 Oct 2011)

CharlieR said:


> We still both have UK licenses so the points etc are not an issue


 
If points are not an issue then whats the big deal?

*Just pay the fine!*


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## Complainer (19 Oct 2011)

blueband said:


> i think you should challenge it all the way


I agree. It would be great to see a pile of legal fees being added to the fine/points that the OP will get in the end.


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## sse (19 Oct 2011)

Time said:


> Can't be done. You can't put an irish address on a UK licence and the same for the other 25 EU states documents.



Yep, when I moved to Ireland with a UK paper licence (i.e. that runs out when I'm 75) I was told to write my Irish address on the "change of address" section but *not *to send it to DVLA. I've been spot-checked a couple of times by the Garda now and they seem aware of the problem - i.e. that there is no way to change a UK paper licence to an Irish address.

As for the points I think what they do is create a "shadow" Irish driving licence and add the points to that.

SSE


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## CharlieR (19 Oct 2011)

Guns N Roses said:


> If points are not an issue then whats the big deal?
> 
> *Just pay the fine!*



You can't just pay the fine, they want to know who gets the imaginary points.

Why should one of us have the shadow points that we did not earn?


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## Complainer (19 Oct 2011)

CharlieR said:


> Why should one of us have the shadow points that we did not earn?



So who WAS driving the car?


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## Time (19 Oct 2011)

That's why the law is seriously flawed.


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## CharlieR (19 Oct 2011)

Complainer said:


> So who WAS driving the car?



If we knew that then we would send the form off like last time. 

We don't know as it could have been either of us.


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## blueband (20 Oct 2011)

Complainer said:


> I agree. It would be great to see a pile of legal fees being added to the fine/points that the OP will get in the end.


 
thats one hell of a 'crystal ball' you have there!


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## Complainer (20 Oct 2011)

CharlieR said:


> We don't know as it could have been either of us.



Well then, it's up to you two to sort it out between you. It's not up to the State to sort out your family confusion.


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## Ceist Beag (20 Oct 2011)

Complainer said:


> Well then, it's up to you two to sort it out between you. It's not up to the State to sort out your family confusion.



+1 Complainer. I can't believe this thread made it to 2 pages as it's a pretty ridiculous scenario if someone clearly acknowledges it was either themself or their partner who was driving the car but that they expect the State to prove which of them it was before they will pay any fine. Most people want the State to have less interference in minutiae like this, whilst clearly the OP expects the State to decide every little detail for them.


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## CharlieR (20 Oct 2011)

Ceist Beag said:


> +1 Complainer. I can't believe this thread made it to 2 pages as it's a pretty ridiculous scenario if someone clearly acknowledges it was either themself or their partner who was driving the car but that they expect the State to prove which of them it was before they will pay any fine. Most people want the State to have less interference in minutiae like this, whilst clearly the OP expects the State to decide every little detail for them.



So we should just charge everyone and let them prove their innocence for all offences that they might have committed.

It is up to the Garda/State to prove beyond all reasonable doubt who committed an offence before sentencing them, from the information I have that they sent out and from what they said when I phoned for help they have no idea who was driving as they are unable to make it out from the photo of the front of car. 

As I have free legal cover with my car breakdown I will let them sort it out.

Cheers


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## Complainer (20 Oct 2011)

CharlieR said:


> So we should just charge everyone and let them prove their innocence for all offences that they might have committed.


You own the car. You are responsible for managing the car. It's your problem to sort out.


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## nai (20 Oct 2011)

CharlieR said:


> It is up to the Garda/State to prove beyond all reasonable doubt who committed an offence before sentencing them, from the information I have that they sent out and from what they said when I phoned for help they have no idea who was driving as they are unable to make it out from the photo of the front of car.
> Cheers


 
not true. law is perfectly clear - registered owner is responsible for persons driving their car and if they're not willing to nominate someone to take the penalty then by default they are accepting liability.

Same applies for rubbish thrown from a car, or for seat belt compliance for minors ....


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## Leo (20 Oct 2011)

CharlieR said:


> It is up to the Garda/State to prove beyond all reasonable doubt who committed an offence before sentencing them.


 
Not in this case it isn't. You should have a read of the legislation under the Irish Statute book, or the more easily digested Citizen's Information site. This legislation was drawn up specifically to deal with this situation. You, as owner of the car are legally obliged to identify the driver who comitted the offence. Where you are unable to do this, then you must take the consequences. Note it is a criminal offence not to identify the driver, and as ever, ignorance is not a valid defence.



CharlieR said:


> As I have free legal cover with my car breakdown I will let them sort it out.


 
You need to educate yourself on the T&Cs of this cover. They will laugh you off the phone if you call them asking them to sort this one out for you!


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## Bubbly Scot (20 Oct 2011)

With a UK licence, the little plastic credit card sized one, you can drive on it until it expires. The licence to drive expires at 75 but the licence itself only lasts for ten years...probably because of the photo and it has an expiry date printed on it. When mine expired a couple of years ago I could have renewed it through a UK address but I chose to take an Irish one..when in Rome and all that.

Any points can't currently be added to your UK licence but if you exchange it for an Irish one, they'll be put on that if they're still active.

On another point though, if you DO get points, even if you don't have an Irish licence to put them on, you have to tell your insurance company.


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## CharlieR (20 Oct 2011)

Leo said:


> You need to educate yourself on the T&Cs of this cover. They will laugh you off the phone if you call them asking them to sort this one out for you!



Well I spoke to the solicitor today appointed by them and looks like we are on a trip to Cork Court so perhaps you should look at your policies and ensure that when you take one out it covers for all eventualities. I did as a number of years ago I needed cover for employment and from then on made sure I was adequately covered.

Correct you are responsible for your vehicle but as he stated cannot be held liable for the vehicle at all times and if you are unable to provide information relating to the driver at the time of the offence then you have your day to debate it.

He stated that the likely outcome is the Judge will look at the evidence, photo taken that shows nothing inside the front of the car, not award points as the driver cannot be identified and then ask for a donation to a charity and the cost of the fine.

I looked at the citizen information and can see no mention that the driver must take the points only that they must identify the driver.


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## Time (20 Oct 2011)

Citizens information is not the law. The law perversely regards the RO as the driver unless someone else is named.


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## clonboy (20 Oct 2011)

looking forward to the outcome of this


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## Complainer (20 Oct 2011)

CharlieR said:


> Well I spoke to the solicitor today appointed by them and looks like we are on a trip to Cork Court so perhaps you should look at your policies and ensure that when you take one out it covers for all eventualities. I did as a number of years ago I needed cover for employment and from then on made sure I was adequately covered.



Please do let us know the date of the Court case. I'm sure some of us would like to come along to witness the show.


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## tinkerbell (22 Oct 2011)

Its simple!   The onus is on the registered owner of the vehicle to know at all times who is actually driving their vehicle whether its just maybe one other driver or twenty.   Thats how the law sees it.


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## Time (22 Oct 2011)

Which is at odds with EU law.


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## ajapale (22 Oct 2011)

Can you point to a court case in which it was determined that this provision in Irish law is at odds with "_EU law_"? Whats "_EU law_"?


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## Time (22 Oct 2011)

It is at odds because the owner cannot be held liable just because he does not know who is driving.

At worst the owner is guilty of with holding information. Without proof of who is driving he cannot be guilty of speeding. The European court of justice has ruled on this.  is the case in point.


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## KoolKid (22 Oct 2011)

nai said:


> law is perfectly clear - registered owner is responsible for persons driving their car and if they're not willing to nominate someone to take the penalty then by default they are accepting liability.


 
What if the vehecile is registered to a company?
Or in such a case is there still an individuals name associated?


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## ajapale (22 Oct 2011)

Time,



Time said:


> The European court of  justice has ruled on this.  is the case in point.



Thanks for the reference, I edited your post with a link to the case {key words: FAIR TRIAL / PROMPT AND DETAILED INFORMATION}

The case related to UK law and practice. The case seems only tangentially relevant to the discussion in this thread. And finally, the court found there had been no violation of Article 6 § 1.

I think the provisions and practice in Irish Law would need to be challenged before one could make the assertion that it was at odds with _"EU law_".

aj


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## Time (22 Oct 2011)

No one seems to have the balls to do so.


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## ajapale (22 Oct 2011)

..or maybe it would cost a lot and they would loose.


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## Time (22 Oct 2011)

I doubt they would lose if it was taken the distance. The DPP has an awful habit of dropping these before they reach a court of record. Easy to drop one case rather than have the floodgates open.


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## blueband (23 Oct 2011)

Ceist Beag said:


> Most people want the State to have less interference in minutiae like this, whilst clearly the OP expects the State to decide every little detail for them.


thats a strange thing to say given that the irish state feels it must intefere in nearly every aspect of its citizens lives!  hence the name 'nanny state'


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## Time (23 Oct 2011)

It is amazing that people allow such carry on. I left because of it. No regrets.


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## onq (23 Oct 2011)

ajapale said:


> I think the provisions and practice in Irish Law would need to be challenged before one could make the assertion that it was at odds with _"EU law_".



AJ

Would that not be the working assumption, after which you take a test case?

If enough people raise this issue in court cases, judges may comment on it.


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## Complainer (23 Oct 2011)

Time said:


> It is amazing that people allow such carry on.


Don't panic - we're nearly getting to grips with speeders who try to play legal games to get others to take responsibility for their actions.


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## Time (23 Oct 2011)

> If enough people raise this issue in court cases, judges may comment on it.


It needs to get to a court of record i.e. High Court or above for any notice to be taken. The DPP will often drop these cases as they cost too much money to defend rather than take a risk of a landmark judgement calling the whole game into question. Easier to let one troublemaker go rather than let the house of cards fall.


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## ajapale (23 Oct 2011)

Am I missing something here or did the two guys in England lose their case?


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## blueband (23 Oct 2011)

Time said:


> Easier to let one troublemaker go rather than let the house of cards fall.


yeah thats typical of how the DPP tackles problems in this country!


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## Ceist Beag (24 Oct 2011)

blueband said:


> thats a strange thing to say given that the irish state feels it must intefere in nearly every aspect of its citizens lives!  hence the name 'nanny state'



Gee thanks for the explanation of 'nanny state' blueband!  maybe if you re-read my post you'll see I said most people don't want a nanny state yet the OP seems all in favour of it given they want the state to determine who was driving his/her own car!


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