# Neighbours building party wall against my permission



## elainem (17 Apr 2012)

Hi! I have horrible neighbours - couple in their 50s with no children - who made horrible remarks about single mothers when I moved in - one of the remarks I clearly remember was - I hope you won't be having any men in, we know what single mothers are like with men'. Laughable, old-fashioned attitude in ways, but also very hurtful. They also spsread rumours that the money I had to do my extension was got from drugs - I am a professional woman with post-grad education. When I accidently took her bin in by mistake one day and gave it back to her, she said I could give it back to her as long as there were no drugs in it. 

Now they are building a party wall between the two terraced properties against my permission. I have written a letter to them. I have told their builders that they havenn't got my permission. My solicitor has written to the wife who uses her maiden name. The husband sent it back to my solicitor saying there was no such person living there. My solicitor now has to go to Land Registry to find out who the property is registered to. If they build the wall they will have to take away my guttering, cover over a drain where the gutter goes into and probablyy breach my damp course in the process.

They are allegedly building the wall to prevent children going into their garden. The only children who live near them are mine, and they don't go near them - they are 9 and 11 and have always found them weird.

This evening, as I am finishing my master's thesis, the building materials have arrived in my garden and a builder was out the front discussing where the wall is going. I didn't go out as I don't need the stress and confrontaton in the middle of my thesis. They won't wait for an engineers report as my solicitor suggested. They won't discuss the height, size and finish of the wall.

My question is: What else can I do? What if I wake up tomorrow morning and the builder is there with all his stuff starting the wall. If he pulls down my guttering, etc. can I call the guards, is this considered crimnal damage.

Would really appreciate advice.


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## browtal (17 Apr 2012)

elainem,

Do stand your ground, firmly. I had problems with a nasty neighbour too and took the easy route and did not insist of my rights. Since then they have infringed our rights in several ways.
People like that have no respect for anybody except themselves.

I know this sounds very extreme but you could take a few blocks from the new wall  that they build and put the blocks in their garden. They could accuse you of taking their property if you don't return the materials.
By removing blocks from the wall they would then have to take action in court against you as the Garda refuse to handle such happenings saying it is a civil matter. 

They, by law cannot touch your guttering, or build a wall on or dividing your property without your permission. I wish you good luck but taking the easy way now will leave you with future problems. The planning dept came to our rescue.
There are some people that feel the law is not for them.  Good luck Browtal


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## elainem (17 Apr 2012)

*Neighbours building wall with out my permission*

Hi! Browtal, thanks a mil for your reply. How did the planning department help you, do you think they could help with my situation?


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## car (17 Apr 2012)

elainem said:


> Now they are building a party wall between the two terraced properties against my permission. I have written a letter to them. I have told their builders that they havenn't got my permission. My solicitor has written to the wife who uses her maiden name. The husband sent it back to my solicitor saying there was no such person living there. My solicitor now has to go to Land Registry to find out who the property is registered to. If they build the wall they will have to take away my guttering, cover over a drain where the gutter goes into and probablyy breach my damp course in the process.
> 
> .


Id be questioning your solicitor here. 

Youve good and bad news.

You need to refer to The Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009.  Its quite clear.  neighbour A can build the wall without permission, but if neighbour B lodges a complaint, it goes to district court for the court to decide.

whether neighbour A has permission or you lodge a complaint, any damage caused by the works is to be compensated.   Not jsut building work but any professional work you get carried out can be compensated too.  this means surveyer, engineer etc.  

It can go to court and judgements if they dont pay.   

Your solicitor should have told you all this not just wrote them a letter saying "stop building".   

I would ask your solicitor about this or if he doesnt know about it get a different one,  theres a good bit more to it but hopefully some pointers.  find the act online, read it, be educated.   show the act to the neighbours, print it out, give it to them, embolden the bit about you looking for engineering reports and they having to pay for them.    But get your solicitors confirmation that this is right first.


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## elainem (17 Apr 2012)

*Neighbours building wall without my permission*

Hi! Car, thanks for your replies. It's amazing what solicitors don't know. How do I lodge a complaint in the District Court. They are ignoring all letters so far.


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## car (17 Apr 2012)

I wouldnt try this myself, I would get a solicitor who knows what he's talking about, and maybe your solitor does know but was just acting on your request to send them a letter, I dont know.  I would have been hopeful though that any solicitor would have been helpful enough to suggest that there was a different way if this is the case.   Ask your solicitor about it.

google for
The Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act 2009

and youll get a lot more info

The act itself is not very readable for lay people so I wouldnt try, theres enough shortened version on solicitors websites.


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## Padraigb (17 Apr 2012)

elainem said:


> ... the building materials have arrived in my garden and a builder was out the front discussing where the wall is going...


Building materials in your garden? That's trespass. The builder could be instructed not to set foot on your land - but I appreciate that you are not in a position to take up yet another battle.


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## Tired Paul (18 Apr 2012)

*Building materials on your property?????????*

Whose insurance is covering this in case of an accident or theft. Take pictures of everything.


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## SarahMc (18 Apr 2012)

I can't comment on the legal aspect, but as a single parent myself, my sympathies, they sound like disgusting bigoted people.
I really hope it works out for you.


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## Bronte (18 Apr 2012)

elainem said:


> I hope you won't be having any men in, we know what single mothers are like with men'. Laughable, old-fashioned attitude in ways, .


 
That's totally shocking in this day and age. I always read your posts with interest as you seem to have so many battles. But your neighbours are disgusting people if that is the way they think. 

What did your solicitor actually tell you were your rights? I believe they have a right to build the wall but you should have been told the law. 

And if someone put building materials in my garden I'd be ordering a man and skip to remove them. That's totally outrageous.


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## lowCO2design (18 Apr 2012)

elainem said:


> Now they are building a party wall between the two terraced properties *against my permission.* I have written a letter to them. I have told their builders that they haven't got my permission.


you keep mentioning permission. they may not need it, to build a wall that is..



> The construction, erection or alteration, within or bounding the  curtilage of a house, of a gate, gateway, railing or wooden fence or a  wall of brick, stone, blocks with decorative finish, other concrete  blocks or mass concrete.
> 1. The height of any such structure shall not exceed 2 metres or, in the  case of a wall or fence within or bounding any garden or other space in  front of a house, 1.2 metres.
> 2. Every wall other than a dry or natural stone wall bounding any garden  or other space shall be capped and the face of any wall of concrete or  concrete block (other than blocks with decorative finish) which will be  visible from any road, path or public area, including public open space,  shall be rendered or plastered.
> 3. No such structure shall be a metal palisade or other security fence.


see class 5 http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#sched2



> My solicitor has written to the wife who uses her maiden name. The husband sent it back to my solicitor saying there was no such person living there. My solicitor now has to go to Land Registry to find out who the property is registered to. If they build the wall they will have to take away my guttering, cover over a drain where the gutter goes into and probablyy breach my damp course in the process.


 take photos and employ an engineer to monitor the situation immediately. this may fall under newish legislation : 





> CLASS 50(_a_)  The demolition of a building, or buildings, within the curtilage of—  (i) a house, (ii) an industrial building, (iii) a business premises, or  (iv) a farmyard complex.(_b_) The demolition of part of a habitable  house in connection with the provision of an extension or porch in  accordance with Class 1 or 7, respectively, of this Part of this  Schedule or in accordance with a permission for an extension or porch  under the Act.
> 1. No such building or buildings shall abut on  another building in separate ownership.2.The cumulative floor area of  any such building, or buildings, shall not exceed: (a) in the case of a  building, or buildings within the curtilage of a house, 40 square  metres, and (b) in all other cases, 100 square metres.3. No such  demolition shall be carried out to facilitate development of any class  prescribed for the purposes of section 176 of the Act.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/si/0235.html



> *the building materials have arrived in my garden* and a builder was out the front discussing where the wall is going. I didn't go out as I don't need the stress and confrontation in the middle of my thesis. They won't wait for an engineers report as my solicitor suggested. They won't discuss the height, size and finish of the wall.


this is really a pathetic approach for your neighbours to take. as its best practice to consult a neighbour, essentially keeping them sweet where such works are proposed and of course addressing any concerns. 

contact your local skip hire company, and the local litter warden/officer and have the guards present when you remove the materials from your property  i'd like to be a fly on the wall for that one..



> question is: What else can I do? What if I wake up tomorrow morning and the builder is there with all his stuff starting the wall. If he pulls down my guttering, etc. can I call the guards, is this considered crimnal damage.


call the guards and ask your solicitor about an injunction until an amicable solution is reached. and inform building control of unauthorised alteration to your property -  it may not be illegal to alter the wall but its certainly illegal for them to effect your drainage etc


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## Leo (18 Apr 2012)

lowCO2design said:


> you keep mentioning permission. they may not need it, to build a wall that is..


 
If the OP's guttering will have to come down to make way for this wall, chances are the boundary is being infringed upon.


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## elainem (18 Apr 2012)

Hi! Thanks for all the replies. Sorry, I meant to say building materials were in their garden, not in mine. It looks like they're going to start, but nothing happened toay. I suppose it wasn't a good day for it. 

My solicitor wrote again to them on Friday, to the name of the person on the Deeds from the Land Registry and another letter addressed to the Occupier, saying that unless they could assure that they would wait for an engineer to check the boundary from the map, that we would issue proceedings against them (not a road I want to go down). My solicitor gave them 48 hours to reply to his letters and they haven't done so yet, though they might not have gotten the letters yesterday.

Bronte - re battles - yes I do have rather a lot of battles! Unfortuanately, I don't have anyone to share the number of battles with. I work, study, run a small business, let property and look after children on my own. I really think that some people do take advantage of a woman if she is on her own. I don't think this would ever have happened if I had a 'husband' 'man' whatever - certainly the nasty comments about single parents would never happen. I think a lot of people perceive women on their own as vulnerable and take advantage of that - that one has to fight extra hard to prove that one is capable.


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## elainem (18 Apr 2012)

Hi! Just had a call from my solicitor re he wants to send draft papers to barrister in case of proceedings, i.e. injunction - I don't want him raking things up either - isn't this a bit excessive. He wont go under the 2009 Act - is this because an injunction is much more expensive?

Advice appreciated.


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## elainem (18 Apr 2012)

*Neighbours building wall without my permission*

Hi! Mugga, the problem is that to build the wall they are going to have to remove my gutterin, cover up the drain where the water from the gutters goes, and possibly breach my damp course, which sticks out a little bit - this was the way the builders left the properties when they build them 20 years ago.

The other issue is that I don't know what height the wall will be, what the finish/render will be. Also, they are getting the builder/plumber partner of another neighbour to do the building. The last wall he built - actually two pillars - feel downn two weeks later very nearly injuring a small child of another neighbour.

It's the damage to my gutters which straddle the party line and to my drainage that particualrly bothers me.


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## Sue Ellen (18 Apr 2012)

elainem said:


> If they build the wall they will have to take away my guttering, cover over a drain where the gutter goes into and probablyy breach my damp course in the process.



The wall between our house and next doors stops short of the guttering so it does not cover the drain or require the guttering to be removed.  If the wall does stop short of the wall does this also do away with the problem of breaching the damp course.



mugga said:


> Why not let them build the wall? What's the problem with it? As you don't like them and they don't like you wouldn't you be better off and have more privacy with a good sturdy wall.



Agree.

With the move of house are you upsetting yourself unnecessarily at a particularly busy time.  Solicitor probably very happy with the business.


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## elainem (18 Apr 2012)

*Neighbour building wall without permission*

Hi! Sue Ellen, thanks for your reply. No, my cousin who is an engineer has looked at it. There is no way of building the wall without covering the drain over with the new wall - it's hard to explain, but the houses are very tightly packed. My cousin said they would also have to take down my guttering to the wall. I don't have an issue with the wall really along the rest of the garden, just where it will be beside the guttering and the front door.

I never liked them because of the comments, but would always say hello to them the odd time we came out of our houses together. Even now if there is a wall there, it won't make any difference to me as I managed to generally keep out of their way before. Most of the neighbours here think they are very odd and keep their distance from me.

Yes, with moving, I am stressed, but also I don't want to come back to my house and see a wall built without my permission, damaging my property and possibly devaluing my house which I intend to keep and rent out.


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## browtal (18 Apr 2012)

Hi Elainem, 
There are limits on height of walls in the front of houses and also sometimes on the finish
on the wall.
I sincerely hope the stress is not too much for you and there will always be people like these 'Christians'. 
If they build the walls above the accepted height, and a tel. call to your local planning office will confirm this. I think it is about 3' 6" .
On my case the planning officer came over to see the offending issue and recommended the outcome. 
Good luck Browtal


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## amh (19 Apr 2012)

My next door neighbour built a wall between our two houses and the drain which the gutter drains into remains open as we decided to leave one block out and due to the overlapping nature of block work the rest of the wall above was built on up (a sort of a 'head' like for a window was created). The gutter is turned into the drain using a shoe and hey presto job done. access is not a issue and there is a wall.

simple but effective


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## Woodie (19 Apr 2012)

Hi elainem.  It seems to me that in pre-empting what might happen is causing you as more  stress than you should allow.
1. Let's face it the neighbours don't like you.  Probably you are very nice but folk are strange and they have their own demons, maybe they envy you, ultra religious - who knows.  You can't change the way they think so forget about them in that respect as you have being doing.  Maybe little issues are bothering them (your kids - it happens) and they just want a wall so they don't have to stress either.  
2. It seems to me that your solicitor is escalating  the issue where it will only cost you money and further backlash from these people.
3. They will be entitled to do a certain amount of building without planning and as long as they don't encroach on your property them it seems to me you don't have a problem with that.
So;
a. Is their no one who can bring this back from the brink, a neighbour, your engineer cousin?   Because this is what you need to do and fast before it gets out of hand and costs you.
b. Write down how you feel about this wall in non legal terms and somehow get that message to them.  You don't have a problem with the wall but it serves you both well to do it properly, doing it incorrectly will effect the value of both your homes and whilst you will never be friend you can live in civility together.
Maybe it's not possible but it will have to happen, either through this way or through the costly way where neither you nor they will win, the the solicitors will.


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## Bronte (19 Apr 2012)

elainem said:


> Hi! Just had a call from my solicitor re he wants to send draft papers to barrister in case of proceedings, i.e. injunction - I don't want him raking things up either - isn't this a bit excessive. .


 
This doesn't make sense. It is you who is instructing the solicitor, so he has to do what you want?

You are now going to not only the expense of a solicitor, but a barrister too. Have you asked how much all this is going to cost you?  For a house you will no longer be living in.   

Has your solicitor not advised you of your rights. As far as I know your neighbours have a right to build a party wall so it is pointless to fight that. A quick trip down your local planning office would elicit that information I would have thought. 

If they are allowed to build the wall isn't it better to get along with the builder, get him onside. By not allowing him access on your side he might go out of his way to make it ugly on our side and if you help him and mention you are worried about the gutters he will be far more amenable to doing the job right.

 Is it not an advantage to you to have the wall as tenant's would probably prefer it to be separate from those most neighbours and these in particular don't sound very pleasant.  And the wall is not going to cost you anything.


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## ajapale (19 Apr 2012)

Am I correct that these two houses are part of a terrace? When you say "party wall" is this just a boundary wall or is it part of a larger structure? How is the boundary defined at present? How does the wall proposed by you neighbour impact on your gutters?

On a broader note video record as much as you can.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the wall your neighbour and his contractor have a duty of care toward you and your children and must not create by their actions a health and safety hazard. Building sites are dangerous places especially for young children. I would be concerned about the presence of unguarded blocks, cement, concrete,building materials, equipment, scaffolding and excavations in close proximity to your property.

Check that any builder is complying with the relevant H&S legislation with respect to himself and his workers. If you have any doubts you can report the contractor the hsa (in confidence).

Finally you should consult your solicitor again and get him to explain the situation again to you. I have a feeling that there may be some mis communication going on here.


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## elainem (19 Apr 2012)

*Neighbours building wall without permission*

Hi! AMH, yes, you probably agreed to do it that way and your neighbours were working with you, this is not the case here, it is either their way or no way.

I had a party wall surveyor over this morning and he said that it is not possible to build the wall where they are thinking of as it will damage my drains, guttering and I won't be able to access where you need to turn off the water outside. He is recommending that they only build the wall up so far, and not the rest of the way.


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## IsleOfMan (20 Apr 2012)

Are you talking about the downpipe or the gutters?  I would imagine that the builder could start the wall a foot or so from the main wall of your house leaving your downpipe and drain free?


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## elainem (20 Apr 2012)

*Neighbours building wall without permission*

Hi! Isle of Man, they would have to build the wall two and a half feet from my gutters as the damp course is stick out also. What they want is to close up any access for children to their property - the only children who live next to them are mine, and they never go into their garden as they have received so many warnings from me about it, as the neighbours have previously just been plain insulting and quite weird really.


In relation to the suggestion of friendly chat - I did that and thoought everything was ok, and they said they had decided not to build the wall. It was a very friendly, amicable chat. Three days later they had builders in my garden costing the wall and deciding on plans. So I don't think they can really be trusted. Pluas they have sent letters back to my solicitor saying they don't even live at that address, though they are on the tiltle at the Land Registry.

I have no objection to the wall as long as they don't encroach on my property, tear down my gutters, concrete over my drain and breach my damp course - I would have thought that was quite a reasonable expectation on my part.


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## Bronte (20 Apr 2012)

elainem said:


> What they want is to close up any access for children to their property - the only children who live next to them are mine, and they never go into their garden as they have received so many warnings from me about it, as the neighbours have previously just been plain insulting and quite weird really.
> 
> 
> .


 

I don't get this, you are warning your terrible neighbours not to go into their garden, maybe that's why they are building a wall and maybe it has nothing to do with the children.  

Why where there is history of bad blood would neighbours deliberate build a wall in such a manner as to raise the tensions even more, maybe the wall is a good idea?  Would you not prefer a wall yourself ?


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## elainem (20 Apr 2012)

*Neighbours building wall without permission*

Bronte, people are not getting it - I don't mind the wall at all, but as the party wall surveyor has said, they will damage my guttering, cover over my drain, block access to being able to turn off my water if I need to by building the wall.

There was no bad blood on my part, but when your children have to listen to someone saying that single mothers have loads of men - when they don't even understand what this means - or have to listen to your neighbour go on about single mothers and drugs - you don't want your children to associate with them.

These neighbours have fallen out with all the other people in the cul de sac who have children, as they have accused their children of going in to their garden, climbing their trees etc. Because the neighbours attitude has been so bad to us, and because of their attitude to the other children, I have warned them never to into our neighbours garden, not even to fectch a ball. There's nothing wrong with this from my part, I'm proecting my children and myself from unwanted hassle.

The party wall surveyor has already said it is not possible to buid the wall up without damaging my property. I'm just waiting, I suppose, for them to build the wall when I am not around as I am often away for weekend.

I also don't want my property devalued in any way by their actions. If they encroach on my prperty, they will devalue it or make it difficult to sell down the line.

We keep very different hours, so even without the wall we rarely meet, which suits me fine.


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## sam h (20 Apr 2012)

Bronte - I may be wrong, but I think Elaine was saying she has warned her children not to go onto the neighbours property.

Not sure what the answer is especially as they will not even accept registered letters.  Do you know who their soliciotr is, could you address the letter to him/her to ask them to advise your neighbour if the works affect your property at all you will be seeking to have the damage put right & will seek all costs involved?

Horrible situation not to be able to get on with neighbours - hope it works out for you


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## Woodie (20 Apr 2012)

elainem said:


> Hi! Isle of Man, they would have to build the wall two and a half feet from my gutters as the damp course is stick out also. What they want is to close up any access for children to their property - the only children who live next to them are mine, and they never go into their garden as they have received so many warnings from me about it, as the neighbours have previously just been plain insulting and quite weird really.
> 
> 
> In relation to the suggestion of friendly chat - I did that and thoought everything was ok, and they said they had decided not to build the wall. It was a very friendly, amicable chat. Three days later they had builders in my garden costing the wall and deciding on plans. So I don't think they can really be trusted. Pluas they have sent letters back to my solicitor saying they don't even live at that address, though they are on the tiltle at the Land Registry.
> ...



OK, so you are sort of on speaking terms.  People often change their mind and in the case of this wall the neighbours are still within their rights.  So time to chill out.  Try to speak with them again and say something "I see you are going ahead with the wall after all, which is no problem as long as my property is not encroached on."   Let them build and if they do damage then sue them and the builder or put the injunction on them to cease.   At the moment you are speculating yourself to distraction and chasing shadows.  Maybe they are getting kicks from seeing you in hoops, sending back letters, saying one thing and doing another....folk are strange as I said before and you don;t know what issue they have in their lives that motivates it.  Maybe they have a grudge about something rather petty which you can't even remember or don't know about (remember your angelic kids might have been a bit devilish at some time unawares to you).

However, just like you can't charge someone with  something unless they have done it, you can stop them building a wall because you believe they will do something they have not done.  "He looks like a villain Your Honour will not cut it".   At the end of the day if they proceed and in the process do damage they and their builder will have to suffer the consequences.  Until then it is simply speculation and stress on your part.


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## Leo (20 Apr 2012)

elainem said:


> Bronte, people are not getting it - I don't mind the wall at all, but as the party wall surveyor has said, they will damage my guttering, cover over my drain, block access to being able to turn off my water if I need to by building the wall.


 
The wall can only be up to 2m in height if to the side of the property without planning permission (1.2m to the front), so it should not reach your guttering.


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## elainem (20 Apr 2012)

*Neighbourrs building wall without permission*

Thanks for all replies. The problem is not really that the wall might reach the guttering, but that the gutters and the drain will have to be placed correctly somwhere else - accordinng to the architect/party wall surveyor, somewhere on their side, and they need to agree where the drain will and where the gutters will come down. The gutters in question carry the rainwater not just from my house, but also from three other mid-terraced properties beside me, though the gutter is attached close to my front door.

The architect/party wall surveyor is going to forward his recomnmendations to my solicitor, who will forward it to them. It shows where the party line is and where the drain and gutter would be best placed. His letter also stipulates that the builders must have professional indemnity insurance, as if an accident happened while they were accessing the work from my side, I could be sued - very importatnt stuff!

The builders that the neighbours were going to use were not builders, but plumbers who do odd jobs on the side. One of them is a partner of another neighbour. I always thought that they were a bit del boyish after the pillar that they built in the cul de sac fell down after a couple of dasy - so I doubt they would have indemnity insurance.

Anyway I'm happy for the wall to be built aslong as it is done right, and that my surveyor, and their enginee, if they have one, can decide on where things are to be placed.


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