# Vulture Fund Settlement



## Vulture Slayer (7 Dec 2016)

Hi All

I probably should have posted here before for advice but I thought I was out of the wood...turns out I am not.

My situation is that after separating from my wife we were engaged in MARPS process with BOS for a number of years so that she could stay in house when full mortgage payments became unsustainable.  Deal was that we paid interest plus token amount of capital and that we would sell the house in 2017.  

When Tanager took over the loan they took a harder line and to cut a long story short we found a buyer off market and cut a deal with them for full and final settlement.  The figures were €789k owed, Sale price €705k and settlement €670k.

Unfortunately it turned out there was a problem with the title due to a front garden that had been given to us by developer but wasn't registered by our solicitor (we bought the house new in 2002).  We got an extension from Tanager on deal to end of November to allow title to be rectified.  We got this done by the last minute and at same time our buyer had  a hiccup which held things up.  

We were able to get back to Tanager last week to confirm that everything was in place and buyer could guarantee closing on 15 Jan.  Tanager turned around and said the deal was off.

On Monday we put together a letter listing out all the reasons why it made financial sense to them to allow us to sell house now rather than go repossesion route.  Plus I got buyer to speak to them to confirm he was serions and he upped price to €712,500 so we could up settlement figure.

They contacted me today and said no deal.  I am livid as it just seems to make no sense whatsoever...Like previous poster in another thread I was concerned that the right people were not getting to see full facts of case so I had specifically requested in letter that they confirm that case and letter was reviewed by credit committee and senior management.   Today thewy would not give me a reason why the deal was pulled other that the passage of time and I was given no alternative options.

Given all that is at stake here I feel that this is discourteous and disrespectful behavior by Tanager to cancel agreement without a reason and to not explore options fully.   I like to think I can handle myself OK and I hate to think what effect their attitude might have on more vulnerable people.

At this stage we just want out as we thought it was finally sorted.  Any advice would bwe much appreciated.

Thanks


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## TLO (7 Dec 2016)

The most likely reason for the deal being off is that Tanager simply believe that they can get a better one.  In hindsight, getting the purchaser to up the offer was probably a mistake as it showed upside potential for Tanager.

On the plus side for you, if the deal is off then your wife doesn't have to vacate the property by 15 January.   Just keep paying the interest plus token capital as agreed with BOS and she could probably get another 5 years in situ whilst Tanager try to get a court order for possession.  If this is cheaper than renting it is worth considering.

With the deal off it is back to the drawing board so for comprehensive advice consider completing the template in
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/thread...arrears-and-negative-equity-questions.170704/
and pasting the results back in this thread.


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## Bronte (8 Dec 2016)

Your mistake is only viewing this from your point of view.  Tangar think they can get more. And already the sale price has increased so they will now believe the house is worth more.  That's more money for them. 

And the words discourteous and disrepectful mean nothing in bank business terms.  You are a number to them. 

As TLO says you can now play hardball by your ex staying in the house.  But without all the facts and figures it's impossible to give any more concrete advice.


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## elcato (8 Dec 2016)

I would also be tempted to stop paying Tanager anything and keeping the money on deposit in case you need to pay it up quickly as part of the deal. Basically, if you pay and engage you should get 5 years before any court repossession. Not paying will still give you a few years. It all depends on the figures of course which we don't have all to hand.


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## Vulture Slayer (8 Dec 2016)

Bronte said:


> Your mistake is only viewing this from your point of view.  Tangar think they can get more. And already the sale price has increased so they will now believe the house is worth more.  That's more money for them.
> 
> And the words discourteous and disrepectful mean nothing in bank business terms.  You are a number to them.
> 
> As TLO says you can now play hardball by your ex staying in the house.  But without all the facts and figures it's impossible to give any more concrete advice.



Thanks for the advice.  Of course you are right, respect and decency doesn't come into it.  Hardball it is then...

I still think that looking at it from a Vulture view they haven't taken into account time and money to repossess, or maybe they have and are taking a punt on longer term market?  I am also a bit suspicious that the Jobs for the Boys factor might be at play and they are keeping their Receiver and legal mates  in fees...

Be interesting to be a Fly on the wall at a Vulture credit committee meeting.

Thanks again for the replies


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Dec 2016)

Vulture Slayer said:


> Of course you are right, respect and decency doesn't come into it



You owe €789k

How much is the property worth on the open market? 

If it's worth at least that, then you need to ask whether you are showing the right respect and decency. 



Brendan


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## Vulture Slayer (8 Dec 2016)

elcato said:


> I would also be tempted to stop paying Tanager anything and keeping the money on deposit in case you need to pay it up quickly as part of the deal. Basically, if you pay and engage you should get 5 years before any court repossession. Not paying will still give you a few years. It all depends on the figures of course which we don't have all to hand.




Thanks for the reply Elcato.  Our goal is to get out clean as soon as we can.  We had a good deal agreed so what we would like to do is leverage something similar without losing anymore money.  TLO's suggestion to go back to paying interest made sense but yes it would be better for if we didn't pay them any more...Is that a runner?  Figures I had been working off for a long while with them  were purely to settle rather than affordability etc.

Thanks


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## Vulture Slayer (8 Dec 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> You owe €789k
> 
> How much is the property worth on the open market?
> 
> ...


Ouch Brendan!  What are you implying by that?  

What I was looking for was Tanager to communicate options to me honestly and transparently.  I would expect that in dealing with any other business or profession.  Wouldn't you?

I believe I was acting responsibly and accept that a deal needs to be fair for all parties.  Most reputable auctioneer in area urged me earlier in year to get deal that had been agreed across the line if at all possible as houses over €650k were not selling.  On a good day she thought it might get €720k but no guarantee how long it might take to sell.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Dec 2016)

Maybe I am wrong, but I get the deal that you might be trying to pull a fast one. 



Vulture Slayer said:


> to cut a long story short we found a buyer off market



Why did you do it off market? 

On rereading your post, I might have been a bit unfair. If so I apologise. 

"The figures were €789k owed, Sale price €705k and settlement €670k." 

Had they accepted €670k in full and final settlement, even though you were selling it for €705k? 

Then it wouldn't matter if you got €750k for it.

When did you agree the deal?  It would usually be assumed for a quick sale and close. 

Brendan


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## elcato (8 Dec 2016)

Unfortunately you are not divulging your circumstances regarding ability to pay so we don't know the full story. You are seeking a deal which writes off a few thousand. They are seeking a deal that will pay them the total outstanding. They will try their best on this. For all we know (and I don't believe this to be true) you could have a million quid stashed and a few properties abroad but given the fact that you were in the MARP process we assume not. I don't like debt collectors who bully people (and not all are) but they are required because some people don't pay their due debts. It's their job to get the best result and your figures are not high enough for them, nothing personal, they feel they can get a better result. Given their lack of openess and transparency I suggest you show them the same disdain. That's why I suggested that if your ex can live rent free for a few years and let them drag out the process, it will cost them. However, if both or either of you are working or have assets this is not a runner.


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## Ross Cashman (11 Dec 2016)

Hi guys im new to this so bare with me.I took out a mortgage in 2006 with BOSI.My wife and i fell into difficulties in 09 due to illness.We built up alot of arrears in a two year period which currently stands at €21,000.Around the end of 2013 we started making payments again,gradually increasing them as we could afford.Since then we have not missed a payment as we pay weekly.We are currently paying €520 p/m,it should be €690 p/m.Our mortgage is now being handled by tanager/lapithus,who have offered no solutions really.I delayed in sending back a SFS statement lately and they said im now being uncooperative.Just this week they sent me a letter calling in the full debt to be paid in 10 days!!.We are a very genuine case,my wife is still ill but so much better than when at her worst.Shd had to travel to uk last year for treatment.She will never work again ,i am her carer  and have limited income from self employment.Any help or suggestions please guys,original mortgage was €200000,house maybe worth 70,or 80,i think there would be a problem selling it as we are about 3-4 metres with no defined boundaries between house's.


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## Bronte (12 Dec 2016)

Ross you need to go and talk to Mabs as a first step.  They should be able to direct you to the correct professionalto handle this for you.  I would also suggest that you fill out the SFS and send it back to them. 

Don't let that letter about the 10 days stress you.  It will take them a long time to get you out if that is what they intend on doing.  Maybe they will cut a deal with you as your house value is way below the amount borrowed.  Your wife being ill will also help you as hopefully they will be kind to you.​


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## Ross Cashman (12 Dec 2016)

Bronte said:


> Ross you need to go and talk to Mabs as a first step.  They should be able to direct you to the correct professionalto handle this for you.  I would also suggest that you fill out the SFS and send it back to them.
> 
> Don't let that letter about the 10 days stress you.  It will take them a long time to get you out if that is what they intend on doing.  Maybe they will cut a deal with you as your house value is way below the amount borrowed.  Your wife being ill will also help you as hopefully they will be kind to you.​


Sent back the sfs and now they are looking for bank statements and the like.Ive been to mabs before and have also spoken to a pip.I really thought the bank would want to resolve this as best for both sides,but the only solution they offered is to make full payments,and make overpayments on top!!!.By going whats in the papers they could of bought our loan at a 52% discount,so you would think that they would want to deal.The house was adapted for my wife through a council grant,so leaving the house would be an absolute nightmare for us!!!


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## Bronte (12 Dec 2016)

I don't see the relevance of what Tanger bought the loan for is.

What's wrong with them looking for bank statements.  Can you afford the full payments or not?  That's the first step.  What deal do you want? If you want them to deal than you have to supply the documents they require. 

What did Mabs and the PIP say to you?


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## Ross Cashman (12 Dec 2016)

Nothing wrong with them looking for statements,sent them all off this morning.I didnt realise that tanager didnt offer solutions like other lenders,so thats why im frustrated,not looking for any special treatment at all.The only deal im looking for is to keep my wife and daughter with a roof over their heads.Mabs sent me to this pip,the pip recommended a p.i.a..I have a old credit union debt that needs to be sorted,so he advised a pia to resolve both,im just terrified that it will get shot down,as the bank gets less in the pia than they are now,so cant see how they will agree to this?????.


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## TLO (12 Dec 2016)

Couple of points:

Don't worry in general, and don't worry about the 10 day letter.  The letter is toothless.  It's taking 5 years or more for repossession cases to work there way through the courts, and in some of these cases no payments have been made in years.  You are paying €520 per month, and with your wife's illness, your case is far from clear-cut.

For the most comprehensive advice it would be best to complete the questionnaire in this thread:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/thread...arrears-and-negative-equity-questions.170704/
and paste the results into a new thread.

Your PIP is correct to advise you to apply for a PIA.  Chances are that your mortgage was in arrears on 1 January 2015, which entitles you to a "no veto" PIA.  Basically, your PIP goes about setting up your PIA, and if Tanager veto it then your PIP asks a judge to overturn the veto.  In a nutshell, Tanager have no choice but to agree.  If they don't, it will be forced on them anyway.  This is also great opportunity to take care of the old credit union debt and anything else that might be hanging out there, Revenue, credit card?


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## Ross Cashman (12 Dec 2016)

Thank you very much for your reply,it has eased my worries some bit!!!!


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## Thirsty (12 Dec 2016)

This is the second case I know of in recent days where a Vulture Fund agreed a deal and then pulled out.

In the other case, the Fund in question isn't even interested in getting their debt repaid (it's been offered); all they want is possession of the property.


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## Vulture Slayer (12 Dec 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Maybe I am wrong, but I get the deal that you might be trying to pull a fast one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hi Brendan

Nope no fast one...I have calmed down a bit now as well and Tanager's position makes more sense now after your post.

Sale wasn't really off the market :  Under the rolling deal we had with BOS under MARPS we made it clear to them that we always hoped to sell house when kids left full time education and clear loan after 5 years, which happens to be 2017.   By chance last year I was on the Physiotherapist's table late 2015 and he told me that a house around the corner had sold and that his friend was one of the underbidders.  So what I did was went to see what auctioneer had sold it and contacted them to say we might be interested in a quick sale.  An offer came back and I brought it to Tanager making a case for a deal taking into account cost of funds and length of time it might take them to repossess if they ever went down that road.  On this basis they accepted €670k in full and final settlement which left us with a balance to pay fees etc. It was a good deal all round...

Yes you are right deal must have been agreed to for quick sale and close, which would have happened if title issues had not arisen.  So I can understand their frustration.  Obviously we were very stresses wanting deal to get across line hence my venting last week when it didn't happen.

I think our best approach now is to go back to paying interest plus a bit as TLO suggested and let them know our preference is to do a fresh deal.  What do you think?


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## Bronte (13 Dec 2016)

Thirsty said:


> This is the second case I know of in recent days where a Vulture Fund agreed a deal and then pulled out.
> 
> In the other case, the Fund in question isn't even interested in getting their debt repaid (it's been offered); all they want is possession of the property.



This doesn't make sense, why wouldn't they want the debt repaid, what's the advantage to the VF of seeking possession when that is a long costly process?


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## Thirsty (13 Dec 2016)

> what's the advantage to the VF of seeking possession when that is a long costly process?


I have very strong suspicions but to document them here would not be a good idea!


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## Bronte (13 Dec 2016)

Well Thirsty PM then as I'm at a total loss as to what the issue could be.


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## Thirsty (13 Dec 2016)

I think a smart person like yourself could figure it out....and not all properties are family homes and therefore repossession is not necessarily 'long and costly'.


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## Vulture Slayer (14 Dec 2016)

Thirsty said:


> I think a smart person like yourself could figure it out....and not all properties are family homes and therefore repossession is not necessarily 'long and costly'.


For my own peace of my mind can you elaborate?!?!


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