# 2,000 offers of social housing turned down last year



## Brendan Burgess (16 Nov 2015)

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/2000-offers-of-social-housing-turned-down-362579.html

"Figures compiled from 30 of the country’s local authorities show there was 1,990 refusals of an offer of social housing last year, including a number of cases in which an applicant refused an offer at least twice.

the main reasons for refusal, as was the case in most of local authorities, was either the location of the accommodation or a change in preferences regarding where the applicant wanted to live. Another common reason for refusal was that the type of accommodation offered was too small or not suitable."

A local councillor had told me that a person in Ringsend had turned down an offer of social housing in Pearse Street because they did not want to leave their community.  I assumed it was just a tall story, but now I wonder.

When my friends bought houses in their late 20s, they bought them wherever they could afford to buy them. They all moved well out of their communities and ended up with long commutes to work.  They gradually traded up and moved closer to where they were born as they paid down their mortgages and their earnings rose.


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## facetious (16 Nov 2015)

Whether it for housing or work, the today's people expect what they want, not what they need.

Three basics necessities in life are shelter, a job, and food on the table. If you cannot afford shelter in your 'wanted' location then you have to move. If you cannot find a job in your chosen calling (even if you had to get a degree or special qualifications) then you will have to (temporally) get a job in a different area of work). Everyone should be able to put food on the table (either from work income or social welfare) and anything above the three basic necessities of life are luxuries.

Many people today want those things above their basic needs when they can't afford them. They want to be on the ladder of shelter and work but are unwilling to start on the bottom rung and work their way up. It is a case of I want, and I am entitled to.


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## terrysgirl33 (16 Nov 2015)

For anyone depending on family for childcare while they work, or who don't have a car and depend on public transport, moving out of their 'home' area can make working and life very difficult to impossible.


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Nov 2015)

terrysgirl33 said:


> For anyone depending on family for childcare while they work



Agreed. 

But anyone who is not working should take up housing wherever they are offered it.  

There is a housing crisis. And ghost estates outside Dublin should be brought back into use. 

Brendan


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## Fella (16 Nov 2015)

These stories make me sick , if you want to have preference for where you live well then get a good job study hard etc etc , too many people in this country want a free ride. They should be offered a house if they don't take it put them out on the streets.

_One applicant refused because they were “on a long holiday in Rome”._

This country makes me sick , so many people just fleece the system.


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## epicaricacy (16 Nov 2015)

What's the point in investing massive sums of money in 'Ghost Estates' if there is a dearth of employment in these areas? Lumping all of the disadvantaged people in areas with poor social infrastructure and high unemployment will condemn them to even longer term unemployment and chronic social problems.



Fella said:


> These stories make me sick , if you want to have preference for where you live well then get a good job study hard etc etc , too many people in this country want a free ride. They should be offered a house if they don't take it put them out on the streets.
> 
> _One applicant refused because they were “on a long holiday in Rome”._
> 
> This country makes me sick , so many people just fleece the system.



The narrative that the poor are somehow responsible for their own poverity is a dangerous, divisive and factually incorrect narrative that's plagued Ireland since the foundation of our state. The idea that 'studying hard' will cure everything is a facile summation of a complex problem. Imagine how difficult it is for someone living in abject poverity to climb out of poverity relative to someone from a middle class background? Imagine the young child living in a socially disadvantaged area such as Moyross, attending a poorly funded DEIS 2 school as opposed to a child from a warm and secure middle class home attending one of the better schools? The young child's parent(s) from Moyross may themselves struggle with literacy, addiction or some other mental health problems in addition to being constantly short of money. These people will understandably be more concerned with the immediacy of survival as opposed to the nebulous long term benefits of their children's education.The child from the middle class area will have at least one parent to help him / her with their homework every day. If the child has dsylexia for example, the middle class parent will seek out additional help for their child. What chance does a child with dsylexia have in an area such as Moyross? By the time the middle class child becomes an adolescent they may need extra grinds to help them to achieve their target of achieving a place in a 'good' course in university. What chance does the single mother from Moyross have of providing grinds for her child? Even if the child from Moyross overcomes the overwhelming odds and manages to study law for example - who will get the place in a practice? Johnny from Moyross or Johnny from Killiney?

Finally, why should people move away from the only support structure (family) that they may have? Most won't own a car and they will become isolated.


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## thedaddyman (16 Nov 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But anyone who is not working should take up housing wherever they are offered it.
> 
> ...



In a lot of cases, there may be perfectly valid reasons why people have not taken up a housing offer. Location could be a key one. We all don't live in Dublin with a semi-decent public transport infrastructure and options around buses, Luas and train. I know someone in a country town who turned down a council house as it was 4 miles from the primary school and the only way she could get there would be to walk with a 5 year old. Schooling is a particular key point as in a number of towns (Naas and Carlow spring to mind), new schools have been built outside the town. Another example of bad Irish planning

Likewise there are scum areas in many towns and cities (and a previous poster mentioned Moyross) that any sensible person would be mad to move in there, in particular when it comes to drug issues in certain places.


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## Bronte (17 Nov 2015)

What does it matter if they turn down a house, presumably it goes to someone else on the list.


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## Fella (17 Nov 2015)

Just had a look at the criteria for social housing for a 2 adult 2 Childen applying you need to earn under net 38,500 that's take home of 740 a week !! Is this a joke like seriously these people are not poor . My problem is the so called poor in Ireland still have the same holidays lifestyle cars etc that the middle class and upper classes have , there are very few people struggling , with medical cards and social housing your better off than middle class who work full time and send kids to Creche. That max income level is an insult to people paying a mortgage I'm a 2 adult 2 child house and can happily live on 740 a week .


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## MrEarl (17 Nov 2015)

Hello,

This just makes me mad.

If someone needs assistance and it is offered, then where the house is located is almost never open for debate as I see it.

My understanding of the concept is that we are trying to help house people who cannot house themselves, for an interim period while they get back on their feet, not that we give out "free" houses in preferred locations for life.

Assuming the offer of accomodation is reasonable (and not say, the most remote part of the country etc) and it is refused, then I think the party who has refused the offer should be sent packing.  That said, I would also have an independent appeals panel to help ensure that offers are actually "reasonable" when made and subsequently declined.



thedaddyman said:


> In a lot of cases, there may be perfectly valid reasons why people have not taken up a housing offer.
> 
> ...I know someone in a country town who turned down a council house as it was 4 miles from the primary school and the only way she could get there would be to walk with a 5 year old.
> 
> ....Likewise there are scum areas in many towns and cities (and a previous poster mentioned Moyross) that any sensible person would be mad to move in there, in particular when it comes to drug issues in certain places.



I think the first point you make should be easily sorted out, possibly bike the kids to school or perhaps arrange a local school bus, or car pooling.  If the house was genuinely that remote that none of these options could ever be implemented, but if the house was only circa 4 miles from the school, then it seems to me that there must have been a solution available.

As for the second point, absolutely accept it as valid and until such time as the law cleans up these places, no one should be asked to move into them.  That said, pressure should be applied on the appropriate Government Departments to deal with these social issues, they have been let pass by for far too long already.


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## terrysgirl33 (17 Nov 2015)

MrEarl said:


> I think the first point you make should be easily sorted out, possibly bike the kids to school.


If this is in the country, then if it isn't safe to walk to school (and most country roads are not that safe to walk on) then it isn't safe to cycle.  Even if it is safe enough, then you have to consider that you are talking about a 5 yo able to cycle safely that distance, accompanied by an adult and any other children who are in the house.  While it's technically possible, I can see a lot of potential problems.



MrEarl said:


> car pooling.


Car pooling involves one parent driving one day, and the other parent driving the other day.  Not possible without a car.



MrEarl said:


> perhaps arrange a local school bus


This seems to most sensible idea for regular school transport, though it leaves the problem of getting to the school when there's a problem with the child, plus parent/teacher meetings and after school activities.



MrEarl said:


> If the house was genuinely that remote that none of these options could ever be implemented, but if the house was only circa 4 miles from the school, then it seems to me that there must have been a solution available.


4 miles, without public transport or a car, is very remote.


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## MrEarl (17 Nov 2015)

Hello,

There are variations of some of the arrangements I suggested above.  

For example, while the suggestion of car pooling may only mean the option of people pooling their journeys and rotating who drives each day in your thoughts, another variation might be the person without a car contributing towards fuel bills for the car owner who does the driving for example.  Another variation might see the person without the car doing a few odd jobs, a bit of babby sitting perhaps for the car owner, in return for regular lifts to and from school.

Simply put, I believe when there is a will, there is usually a way.... friends, neighbours, members of the same sports or social clubs, church groups etc. can all help out when called upon.  Perhaps one of the teachers at the school passes by the house and could help out with a lift each day, but I seriously doubt there is no solution to be found in the majority of cases.


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## terrysgirl33 (19 Nov 2015)

MrEarl said:


> Simply put, I believe when there is a will, there is usually a way.... friends, neighbours, members of the same sports or social clubs, church groups etc. can all help out when called upon.  Perhaps one of the teachers at the school passes by the house and could help out with a lift each day, but I seriously doubt there is no solution to be found in the majority of cases.



All of these depend on the good will of other people.  Some people will always be willing to work with you, but in a rural setting you have a smaller pool of people to ask, and it's entirely possible that they are not willing or able to help out.


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## MrEarl (19 Nov 2015)

terrysgirl33 said:


> All of these depend on the good will of other people.  Some people will always be willing to work with you, but in a rural setting you have a smaller pool of people to ask, and it's entirely possible that they are not willing or able to help out.



True but in my experience, I have found that rural people and particularly those in smaller communities are more willing to help each other than in larger towns and cities where there are less personal relationships formed etc.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Dec 2015)

There is more on this in today's Indo 

*Fiasco as up to half of housing offers are rejected*
*Kelly to review high rate of housing refusals*

In Dublin City – where the homeless crisis is most severe – almost one in five families turned down offers of homes.

The refusal figure is as high as 49pc in Cork county, 46pc in Waterford, 42pc in counties Roscommon and Donegal and 40pc in Cork City.

Families turn down offers of homes for a wide variety of reasons, including poor access to facilities such as schools and other important services.

But councils are now telling the Department of the Environment of their frustration over so-called ‘serial refusers’.


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## moneybox (5 Dec 2015)

If the above is true approximately half the people on the housing list are not in direneed maybe they should be removed from the list. 40% refusal rate in Cork city is ridiculous.


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## MrEarl (5 Dec 2015)

moneybox said:


> If the above is true approximately half the people on the housing list are not in dire need, maybe they should be removed from the list...



I would tend to agree.

Terrysgirl33 made some valid points above regarding difficulties in more rural locations, but to see significant numbers declining accomodation in the likes of Dublin and Cork city are not easily excused, given the significant infrastructure in both cities (particularly Dublin).


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## facetious (6 Dec 2015)

An old saying comes to mind: "Beggars can't be choosers".


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## MrEarl (6 Dec 2015)

facetious said:


> ...."Beggars can't be choosers".



Well, it seems that they can be, when it comes to the housing list


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## STEINER (6 Dec 2015)

I know someone who turned down an offer, due to the shocking state of the house/occupants next door to the offered house.  I saw the house and formed the opinion that the offer was made just for the sake of it, so that the council could say "well, we did offer you a house".

I did see another house become available in a part of Walkinstown, it was allocated to someone who can afford to park a large white 2015 SUV in the yard.  No mortgage of course means more to splash out on the motor.

Some people are offered 2 bed houses when they want a 3 bed.  If they take the 2 bed, its the start of endless waiting again.


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## moneybox (6 Dec 2015)

There will always be excuses some valid some not as to why people turn down offers of social housing,however  figures of up to 50% refusing offers is simply quite shocking, it all can't be down to being offered housing next door to the neighbours from hell or being four miles from the nearest schools.  I would guess that the majority of these serial decliners are simply looking for the plushest pad in the nicest neighbourhood all at the expense of the suffering taxpayer.


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## MrEarl (7 Dec 2015)

STEINER said:


> I know someone who turned down an offer, due to the shocking state of the house/occupants next door to the offered house.  I saw the house and formed the opinion that the offer was made just for the sake of it, so that the council could say "well, we did offer you a house"..



With regards to the interior, I'm sure a few cans of paint could have helped... but as for whats going on next door and outside of the property, I'd say we all accept thats another matter and action needs to be taken to address that sort of problem (perhaps the person you know could have got local politicans or the gardai involved, to help deal with the issues). 

Having said that, if it's a toss up between sleeping on the street, or in a house in an area with social problems, I think I'd still rather take the house.



STEINER said:


> ....Some people are offered 2 bed houses when they want a 3 bed.  If they take the 2 bed, its the start of endless waiting again.



Bunk beds, are better than no beds ....


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## diver (7 Dec 2015)

When I signed my rental property onto the RAS scheme 7 years ago, I was anxious to have the house occupied as soon as possible. The council told me that any prospective tenants get three housing offers (yes, three!!) before they have to accept one of them. This country beggars belief sometimes......


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## cremeegg (7 Dec 2015)

There seems to be a misconception about who gets offered council housing in Ireland.

With all the coverage of homelessness recently and the lack of housing people seem to think that council housing is offered to those in need. Not really.

People are put in a position on a Council housing waiting list based on a complex points structure. One of the most significant elements of this points system is the length of time a person has been on the list.

Many families automatically put their children on the list as soon as they turn 18. With no dependants and a place to live at home with mammy they dont get an offer. Roll on 10 years, married with one or two kids they stroll into a house because they have been on the list 10 years, which trumps any other applicant with otherwise similar circumstances.

Any system can be gamed and the council housing system is systematically gamed by those in the know.

I know several people in this position, one of them in fact drives a very expensive car, why wouldn't he he has a good job and very low housing costs.


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## cremeegg (7 Dec 2015)

In England there are two types of social housing. "Affordable housing" where the tenant pays 80% of the market rent and, "Social housing" where the tenant pays 50% of market rent.

In Ireland the tenant's rent is means tested with the basic rent being €35 a week (not sure if that is nationwide) far less I would think than 50% of market rent for many properties.


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## cremeegg (7 Dec 2015)

In Ireland a council house is for life, once you get a house there is no ongoing test to see if you continue to qualify.

In England if you have a council house that is bigger than your needs, say where a house was originally for a family with children, but now the children have left, you can be offered a new more suitable house or you have to pay an additional rent for the extra space


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## MrEarl (8 Dec 2015)

cremeegg said:


> In Ireland a council house is for life, once you get a house there is no ongoing test to see if you continue to qualify....



Please tell me that is not true... anyone ?


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## moneybox (8 Dec 2015)

MrEarl said:


> Please tell me that is not true... anyone ?


 
It's true, you could win the lotto and still keep your council house/flat


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## Delboy (8 Dec 2015)

MrEarl said:


> Please tell me that is not true... anyone ?


From the people I know in Council houses, both rural and urban, it is indeed for life. Unless they voluntarily move on themselves i.e. buy a new house. No matter how their financial circumstances change over the years, their are no reviews by the Council.
And when the original occupants die/go into nursing homes, the last remaining child gets to stay on if they so wish


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## allencat3 (8 Dec 2015)

Surely the social housing/social welfare systems are being taken advantage/abused by those who are 'in the know' - that really sickens and frustrates me (and my husband, aged 73).  Both of us are permanently disabled since birth/early age and had faced countless barriers since the 1970s, due to negative attitudes in society/workplace, in gaining employment/promotion (or lack of), applying for car insurance / mortgages (some banks refused our applications despite our references/P60s/payslips), etc. Yet both of us never, ever seek 'freebies' - Free Travel Pass, Household Benefits, Medical Card (which my husband received when he reached the age of 70).  One of my friends (now no longer) applied to her local CoCo for a house several years ago, just because she couldn't get on with her father (a retired GP) residing in an affluent area, and once she got a bungalow in an estate a few years ago, she moaned about children running wild and throwing stones at her house.  I told her that that's what she asked for - and she can't be so choosy!   End of rant.....


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## Waver (8 Dec 2015)

The house might be for life but the rent is subject to review. Rent is based on income. 15% of the earnings of €32/€64 per week of the highest earning person or couple in the property plus an amount for other earners in the property. The maximum monthly rent in Dublin City Council is €1833 per month.


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## cremeegg (10 Dec 2015)

cremeegg said:


> In Ireland a council house is for life, once you get a house there is no ongoing test to see if you continue to qualify.





MrEarl said:


> Please tell me that is not true... anyone ?



David Cameron is now introducing legislation to set the English council house tenancy at 5 years. http://www.theguardian.com/society/...nants-lose-lifetime-right-to-live-in-property

Obviously he gets his ideas from AAM


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## Brendan Burgess (15 Jan 2016)

*Families turn down social housing due to 'lack of space, garden or parking'*



Department officials have compiled a full list of reasons behind the high level of refusals after the Irish Independent revealed many families were turning down offers because they didn't like the area.

In some parts of the country, such as Cork county, almost one in every two social houses was rejected over a 12-month period.

A report, which is due to be sent to the Oireachtas Environment Committee, confirms homes are rejected because they are located in areas which already house people the applicants "do not feel compatible with".

Other reasons given for refusing offers of social houses include:


No garden or parking facilities;
property not located in 'area of choice';
a high level of anti-social behaviour;
property unsuitable to the applicant's needs;
accommodation was an upper floor apartment.


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## elcato (15 Jan 2016)

I would contend that apart from the first point above, the rest are legimate reasons for not accepting. Points 2 and 3 are probably the same thing quite often. For instance, Darndale would not be my area of choice because of the anti-social behaviour.


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## facetious (15 Jan 2016)

I agree with you that points 2 & 3 are probably one in the same just a differnent way of naming it so as to avoid being called racist or some other name which the applicant may deem unfair..

Property unsuitable to the applicant's needs covers a multitude of possibilities and the allocating officer should know what the applicants needs rather than what the applicant wants.

Accomodation on an upper floor flat should only affect a person with a disability if there is no lift (which is in good working order). I'm 70 and walk with a stick, the result of medication for cancer) but live on the 2nd floor. I can make it up and down the stairs 3 times carrying items) but no more without a sit down for 15-20 minutes; no lifts but not really a problem as I rarely do more than 1 down and 1 up within a few minutes (mainly leaving out the rubbish).

Property not located in area of choice., in this case, until a person/people get back on their feet, in my opinion, 'beggars can't be choosers'.


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## MrEarl (15 Jan 2016)

Brendan Burgess said:


> *....*A report, which is due to be sent to the Oireachtas Environment Committee, confirms homes are rejected because they are located in areas which already house people the applicants "do not feel compatible with".
> 
> Other reasons given for refusing offers of social houses include:
> 
> ...



I would have thought that the option of sleeping on the street would help me get past everything on that list.  If there are not enough bedrooms, get bunk beds, if the accomodation consisted of an upper floor apartment, either get the lift or use the stairs and get fit...

That said, the issue about anti social behaviour cannot be ignored.  If our Government is telling us that people who desparately need housing won't stay in certain properties for fear of anti social behaviour, then we must ask what our Government is doing to sort out that particular problem ?


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## Delboy (15 Jan 2016)

According to a report on the radio on this during the week, a lot of folk are happy in the rented houses (paid for by rent allowance) they are in at the minute and thus they turn houses down. A lot of TD's and Councillors, esp on the FG side, are now saying that RA is a welfare trap and has to be tackled


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## facetious (16 Jan 2016)

MrEarl said:


> I would have thought that the option of sleeping on the street would help me get past everything on that list.  If there are not enough bedrooms, get bunk beds, if the accomodation consisted of an upper floor apartment, either get the lift or use the stairs and get fit...
> 
> That said, the issue about anti social behaviour cannot be ignored.  If our Government is telling us that people who desparately need housing won't stay in certain properties for fear of anti social behaviour, then we must ask what our Government is doing to sort out that particular problem ?


I know of locations that even the police fear to go. These need to be sorted out so that the homeless can be moved in as there are quite a few empty houses available but these anti-socialites won't have anyone who doesn't meet their 'standards' or way of life. Throughout the country there must be a good thousand properties in such areas (and most large towns have them and even some smaller ones). Certainly, we can't expect the desperately needy to be faced with this type of situation.


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## MrEarl (17 Jan 2016)

facetious said:


> I know of locations that even the police fear to go. These need to be sorted out so that the homeless can be moved in as there are quite a few empty houses available but these anti-socialites won't have anyone who doesn't meet their 'standards' or way of life. Throughout the country there must be a good thousand properties in such areas (and most large towns have them and even some smaller ones). Certainly, we can't expect the desperately needy to be faced with this type of situation.



I agree entirely and hold our Minister for Justice responsible, in the first instance.  If the Gardai can't sort it out by themselves, then send the army in alongside them.  I'd far rather see our army help out with law enforcement, than have half of them doing nothing all day (aside from having to turn up for the occassional roll call, or get to go for a spin in a jeep following a van full of money).

That said, we could also look to the various deserted rural developments, be they completed or partially completed... again, massive numbers of properties which could be put to good use at a reasonable cost.

Then we move on to look at the likes of the Section 23 properties that have been empty for years on end.


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## moneybox (10 Feb 2016)

Housing crisis, what housing crisis?

[broken link removed]


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## Marigold77 (4 Apr 2016)

Well, I refused to go on the housing list. I am happy renting privately and have medical needs to be where I am now. Maybe folk do not realise the pressure some local authorities put on those applying for rent allowance? Cork for example refuse ra applications unless you are on the housing list. When I moved to West Cork after years renting further north I was told this; no ra until and unless I was on the list. It took them 7 months to process my application during which time no ra. When the man finally came to do the visit, I asked why and his take was " We like everyone to be on the list."  A welfare  complaints officer I met at a craft fair ( I am over 70 and disabled) kindly asked if i was getting all I was entitled to and told me that there was no legal requirement or need for me to be on the list as I had been renting privately some years. I emailed a complaint and they were on the doorstep next day assuring me of my ra... I managed to get the back money also. When I moved county again, the new council again tried it on. The lists are inflated by this. The ghost estates! There are three in the village near me and others within a short distance. PS we who seek help with a roof over our heads are not beggars.


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