# New build - who is responsible if plans are inaccurate



## selfbuild (21 Oct 2011)

Hi all - hope you can help with this one
I am in the middle of a new build. I paid an architect to draw up plans and employed an engineer to supervise the build who approved the plans.  Also have contracted the build out to a builder.


Currently, block work is complete to first floor and hollow core floors due on monday.Earlier in the week the builder noticed that the stairs as shown on the plans was not long enough to get from the ground floor to first - we have to ass 2 extra steps at the bottom and one at the top!

The impact of this is huge - it means moving doors, loosing space in rooms and also the bottom of the stairs will be the first thing that you meet when you open the front door ( we wanted it pushed back originally)

We are very disappointed to say the least, we spent a lot of time with architect on options with our layout and finally came up with one that we loved.  I assumed all elements of the plans would be ok and got comfort when the engineer signed off on them.

At this stage it is too late to redesign - we just have to live with it even though we hate the layout that has been forced on us.  Can anyone advise who should ultimately be held responsible for this - the architect or engineer?
Any advice appreciated


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## T McGibney (21 Oct 2011)

Don't necessarily take the builder's word as Gospel. He wouldn't be the first to blame 'wrong plans' in an attempt to hide an error or shortcut on his part.


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## Docarch (21 Oct 2011)

To what level/stage did the architect do up the plans?  Were they design/planning drawings or were they tender/construction drawings?


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## selfbuild (21 Oct 2011)

To be fair to the builder he was the one who spotted it and brought it to my attention.  When I talked to the engineer he agreed that the plans were wrong and offered to help come up with an alternative.  It was not the only error on the plans that the builder had to escalate to me ( architect left out screed on first floor which impact overall headroom upstairs)


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## selfbuild (21 Oct 2011)

The architect did full design/planning and build specification etc...and also managed the planning permission application for us


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## Docarch (21 Oct 2011)

selfbuild said:


> employed an engineer to supervise the build *who approved the plans*.


 
I assume engineer did not spot these issues?

Did anybody do _construction_ drawings?


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## selfbuild (21 Oct 2011)

Hi Docarch,
Architect did all drawings including planning and construction drawings.  When these were finalised,  the engineer reviewed and approved them - he did not spot the issues at this stage.  It was only during the build process that the builder spotted the issue and brought it to my attention


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## onq (21 Oct 2011)

There are two issues here.

Were the architects plans taken to planning stage only?
Yes. The stairs should work for the floor levels shown in the plans.

Was the architect retained to draw up tender plans?
Yes. The floor levels should have been maintained when detailing the structure.

All of this is different if the architects plans had a stairs that didn't work at planning stage or if the slab was installed to the floor level and the screed laid on top.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                 as a defence or support -     in     and    of        itself  -         should       legal            action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                 Real Life with rights to        inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the            matter     at  hand.


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## selfbuild (21 Oct 2011)

Hi ONQ
Not sure what you mean
The architect prepared all plans - for both planning and construction purposes.  He also did a detailed build specification which we gave to various builders during the tender process.  The builder is trying to build as per the construction plans but noticed this stairs issue when ordering hollow core floors


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## Superman (21 Oct 2011)

You will need to get a solicitor involved and a design professional.
It will depend on what you mean by construction drawings. 
If the architect had to give you actual construction drawings (which were later unaltered), then he would appear to be at fault.
If that number of additional steps were added to the stairs, you should be asking if the stairs now complies with the building regulations.


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## onq (21 Oct 2011)

Hi selfbuild,

+1 what Superman has said and I note the following -

The co-ordination falls to the architect who in theory pulls it all together, but there may have been mitigating circumstances centring on the complexity of the co-ordination and late calls on site.
The co-ordination in a private house is a five way split between client, architect, structural engineer and mechanical engineer/heating contractor/electrical contractor and interior designer.
The stairs section is the essential part of the tender and working drawing set because the stairs is where all these details meet plus the stairs has its own detailing.

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The setting of the structural slab levels (or joist levels at 1st floor if its in timber) works "backwards" (downwards) from the finished floor level [FFL] datums shown on the planning drawings.
The overall Floor Build Up to FFL from the structural slab on ground or first floor will include

(i)  Finishes - any timber floor boards, stone or thick tiles and also 
(ii) Services - UFH pipework and insulation and/or electrical service ducts.

The setting of the stairs structural level similarly works "backwards" (downwards) from any applied finish such as stone or timber treads. This is expecially important if a concrete stairs are used. The surfaces of the stairs finishes define the rise and going and must be from the finished floor surface to the finished floor datum. 
So its kind of counter-intuitive - the finished floor level is an "imaginary level".

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Typical mistakes include -

- setting the 1st structural slab or joist tops at the finished floor level
- applying thick (50-100mm) floor finishes/build ups after setting the stairs tread levels

The interior designer and the client have huge input into floor and ceiling finishes.
The Mechanical and Electrical services routing tend to affect the total floor build up.
These things all need to be considered, agreed and signed off before proceeding to site.
Any late calls may require repositioning of floor structure and/or the redesign of the stairs.

That's as clear as I can make it but feel free to ask a question.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                  as a defence or support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should       legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                  Real Life with rights to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the             matter     at  hand.


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## selfbuild (21 Oct 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys
During the design phase we covered everything from floor finishes to suspended ceiling etc .. To the point that they were even included in the construction plans and associated specification document - I really thought we had everything coverd!

We now feel very let down, after paying out so much money for professional services, to be in a position that we are forced to build a house that will be very much less than what we hoped and planned for. It has really taking the excitement out of the build to the point that I want to pretend it's not happening!!!


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## Docarch (21 Oct 2011)

Can you look at a new design for a staircase that might solve some of the issues, like increase the pitch (to no more than 42 deg) and/or increase the risers/reduce the going? Looking at this again might take out one or two steps?


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## onq (21 Oct 2011)

Co-ordination issues are of the experience that comes your way on any building project, but this seems unusual.
Given the amount of work done at the preliminary stages, I cannot fathom why the stairs / floor levels co-ordination has fallen apart.
It may be that the person leading the meetings was not the person doing the drawings and I have known this to be a source of errors with surveyors.

The stairs is only the most obvious place where coordination has to occur.
Similar and possibly related issues may arise with -

- the co-ordination of brick heights with block heights and FFL (should be multiple of a brick height = 75mm)
- the distance from the top of the window to the ceiling ( may affect architraves, curtains and pelmets)
- distance from the window sill to the floor (may affect alternative escape from 1st floor windows)

If there is a significant error in the stairs that suggests the internal floor height is higher than it should be, then the floor height may also be raised relative to the features on the elevation/windows and doors heights.
With the greatest of respect to all involved, I think you need to have a meeting with your architect as a matter of urgency. with him having done a check survey of the building and mapped this against his drawings.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                                   as a defence or  support  -     in     and    of        itself  -         should        legal             action        be           taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                                   Real Life with rights  to         inspect     and       issue         reports    on     the              matter     at  hand.


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