# Dementia - Is any of the cost of care in private hospital recoverable



## mefein (26 Apr 2012)

My husband has dementia and has been a patient in Highfield Private Hospital (Alzheimers Centre) Drumcondra for the past 9 months. The VHI cover 180 days in the year but after that we have to pay 5,000+ a month until the end of the year for him to remain there.  I understand that his VHI will kick in again in Jan 2013.  Due to the financial mess he has left us in the Fair Deal would not be appropriate at this stage. My query is - can we claim back tax on the hospital charges?  Many thanks for any direction on above.


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## huskerdu (26 Apr 2012)

Yes, you can claim for hospital expenses.

Have a look at the key post where there is a link to the Revenue leaflet on this topic. 

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=940607#post940607


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## Threadser (26 Apr 2012)

Why is your husband not deemed to be eligible for the fair deal? If his dementia is at a stage that he needs extended nursing home care then and his condition is unlikely to improve then would you consider submitting an application to the scheme. I know there were problems with funding last year but as far as I know additional funding has been allocated to the scheme and applications are still being accepted. There may be a time delay while the financial assesment is taking place but the medical assesment should be a formality if he is already in nursing home care. Under the scheme you will only be required to pay 80% of his income and 15% of the value of any assets (this part can be deferred). Dementia is a difficult enough illness to deal with without having huge financial worries as well. Hope you get the matter sorted.


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## mefein (26 Apr 2012)

He invested in three interest only apartments (total 850K owed to banks) and the HSE take into account

a. income from the 3 apartments
b. his private pension
c. his state pension
d. my income from a property which my mother left to me
e. my pension
f. my income (working part time as I have to, even though I am past retirement age)


They divide this in two and take 80% for the Fair Deal

They refuse to assess us separately.  The apartments are in his name.  I have Enduring Power of Attorney

They don't take into consideration his liabilities in paying back the bank, insurance on apts, maintenance fees, household charge, PRTB etc etc.

He also owes over 85k in VAT

I have made sure his repayments and expenses are up to date but at this stage have been diagnosed with high blood pressure etc due to the stress it has caused.  My children are abroad as are two of my 3 brothers - the third saw his business fold and had to pay redundancy to all his employees.  As a director he received nothing and gets nothing from the State.


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## mefein (26 Apr 2012)

Thank you for that link Huskerdu. I will download the pdf and have a read through it


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## Threadser (26 Apr 2012)

That's a dreadful situation to be in. It is ridiculous that the HSE won't take into account liabilities as well as assets. If you contact the tax office they can arrange to give you tax credits for this tax year if your nursing home payments are onerous. In other words, in certain circumstances, they will allow you the tax relief in the current tax year rather than waiting till next year to claim. You will still only be entitled to 20 % back on your €5,000 a month payment but every little helps.


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## mefein (26 Apr 2012)

Threadser said:


> That's a dreadful situation to be in. It is ridiculous that the HSE won't take into account liabilities as well as assets. If you contact the tax office they can arrange to give you tax credits for this tax year if your nursing home payments are onerous. In other words, in certain circumstances, they will allow you the tax relief in the current tax year rather than waiting till next year to claim. You will still only be entitled to 20 % back on your €5,000 a month payment but every little helps.



Thank you for that Threadser. Basically my life savings will now be going to keep him in hospital.   He has been ill for almost four years now and everything has been dropped in my lap.  Basically I am managing the apts on behalf of the banks.  I would love to hand back the keys. Most of the time I feel I am swimming against the tide but try to keep the best side out as I realise there are lots of people in dreadful situations also.


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## Threadser (27 Apr 2012)

I think you should definitely consider handing back the keys of the investment properties to the banks and contacting New Beginnings for advice. Dementia is a cruel illness but the General Public doesn't realise how devastating the financial consequences of providing care can be. My mother has dementia and before the Fair Deal came in she wasn't eligible for subvention so myself and my brother would have had to pay the €50,000 a year between us. Thankfully it just came in shortly after she was admitted to full time care and we were very relieved. Best of luck with getting something sorted.


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## browtal (27 Apr 2012)

Mefein,
You will eventually suffer as a result of this stress. Do make contact with New Beginnings
you must not bear this burden alone, as you are.  
Perhaps some of your family would come home and help with the situation. We can be too independent. I wonder if they know the strain you are under, with your husbands illness as well as the financial situation. 
You are quoting the letter of the fair deal scheme,I know the HSE are quite sympathetic in difficult situations.  Have you spoken directly with them? Good luck Browtal


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## mefein (28 Apr 2012)

Thank you for your words of advice and support.  

My son came home and went with me to MABS and basically their advice is you're doing grand, keep managing things the way you are, which doesn't solve anything obviously.  He also came to the solicitor and arranged the enduring power of attorney with me.

I spoke with HSE on the phone and asked them if they could just take his income and property (half the house) into consideration but they insist that it has to be joint income.  We were on the point of separation before this happened and I didn't agree with two of his investments, but now that he is not compos mentis a separation is not an option. We would have to live apart for four years for a divorce but I guess this couldnt happen either due to his mental state.  I have evidence (letters and photos which he (stupidly!) kept in the attic) to show that he had at least half a dozen extra-marital relationships over a ten year period.

Thanks for the New Beginnings suggestion.  I think they are snowed under but will take my place in the queue anyway.

I have been to the doc about the stress and am taking my BP every day for a week.  

- Meféin


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## Threadser (28 Apr 2012)

Glad to hear that your son is supporting you in trying to get this sorted. Your understandable bitterness towards your husband for the financial mess he has left you in and for his infidelity is understandable. Would you consider selling the property your mother left you to ease the burden?


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## mefein (28 Apr 2012)

Absolutely not Threadser but thanks for the suggestion anyway! 

Actually I am not a bitter person and hope I do not come across as such, as I  have been doing all I can to support and help him during the three and a half years of his illness.  Many people go through separation/divorce amicably and this would have happened in our case.  

Regarding the sale of my property - my mother would turn in her grave to think the proceeds from property she worked so hard to buy would go to pay off his debts. 

- Mefein


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## Threadser (28 Apr 2012)

Perhaps your mother wouldn't have been upset though if she thought the proceeds of her property were being used to alleviate a difficult financial situation for her daughter. I understand that you may have an emotional attachment to this property and if you have a significant cushion of savings then the payments will be sustainable in the short term. However, if you husband is a relatively young man then he could live possibly 10  or more years requiring full time care. Do you have enough savings to cover his care costs for that length of time?


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## mefein (28 Apr 2012)

Threadser if I had enough savings to keep him in his present care centre for 10 years I would be laughing, as this would amount to about 650k. Appreciate your suggestions anyway, thank you.


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## Jim2007 (28 Apr 2012)

mefein said:


> Thanks for the New Beginnings suggestion.  I think they are snowed under but will take my place in the queue anyway.



New Beginnings is just an advocacy group, it is really not going to be much help at the end of the day except supply tea and sympathy!

What you need to do is find a way to force the property related loans into the HSE equation, I would suggest you to talk to a good accountant to see if there is any way of moving the properties and the related loans into a company which would of course receive all the income from the said properties.  Assuming the operating costs of the properties exceed the income, you will end up owning a company with a small or zero valuation, rather than properties.

Now this is a lot easier said that done, so you really need a good accountant that will be able to persuade the banks to go along, because they will not be happy about the idea.

Sorry that is about the best idea I can come up with...


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## Threadser (28 Apr 2012)

mefein said:


> Threadser if I had enough savings to keep him in his present care centre for 10 years I would be laughing, as this would amount to about 650k. Appreciate your suggestions anyway, thank you.


 I presumed you wouldn't have, that's why I was suggesting you re-consider your decision regarding the property your mother has left you.


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## mefein (28 Apr 2012)

Jim2007 said:


> New Beginnings is just an advocacy group, it is really not going to be much help at the end of the day except supply tea and sympathy!
> 
> .



............ which is exactly what I got from MABS - they even provided a box of tissues 

I have an accountant and will pass on your suggestion to him Jim, thanks.

Mefein


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## putsch (28 Apr 2012)

Deep sympathy to OP. I don't have practical advice but putting the investment properties into the company sounds like a possible route. I am having similar issues regarding an elderly parent but I absolutely would not equate an elderly parent to a life partner - this must be torture for you......


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