# Wife of Executor of will taking over.



## BOXtheFOX (3 Jan 2008)

The husband of a family member is the executor of my father's will.  I have noticed recently that the family member has started taking small items of value from my father's home such as ornaments, items of jewellery belonging to my late mother. The family member is constantly talking about taking out a Power of Attorney over my father. My father is slowly being influenced by this family member who is very manipulative. This family member takes my father to the opticians, doctor's etc and accompanies him in to each consultation where they speak on his behalf. The family member also medicates my father and over the Christmas was boasting of the fact that she was responsible for increasing my fathers medication to double in order to calm him down more. She suggested this to his doctor.
My father is fine mentally, just elderly. He recently wanted to distribute some money to his grandchildren in equal amounts. But this person who has less children than other family members persuaded him not to do so. 

I am concerned by the slow manipulation of my father for many reasons but the point of this posting is to see if anything can be done about her husband being the executor of my fathers will.


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## Caveat (3 Jan 2008)

Just to be clear - when you refer to the 'family member' throughout your post,  do you mean the husband of the family member (the executor) or the actual family member, e.g. immediate family?


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## Stifster (3 Jan 2008)

I don't think there is anything that you can do at the moment. Your father could still amend his will.

When he passes you could challenge the will if there were grounds for saying that he was unduly influenced to appoint that person as executor in the first place. You would need very strong evidence though.

Ultimately does it really matter who is executor? All the executor does is distribute as per the will. I would be more concerned about what is going on at present if items of value are being removed. Family conference?


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## truthseeker (3 Jan 2008)

Stifster said:


> Ultimately does it really matter who is executor? All the executor does is distribute as per the will.


 
Thats what I thought until I found myself in the position of my fathers brother being executor of his will and due to bad blood in the family (and the executor being a santicmonious judgemental control freak) I discovered that an executor can make life very difficult and can cost the estate a lot of money. This man has refused to speak to myself or sibling since our parents death last january and did NOTHING as regards his executor duties until a couple of months ago despite us sending him requests from our own solicitor asking him to either take up his executorship or renounce it (costing us money to send the letters), most recently he has had a valuation done on the family home that cost more than double the highest quote we had for a valuation. He has not bothered to deal with social welfare cheques that are now long out of date, that myself and sibling were not allowed lodge because ONLY the executor can do this. 
People say 'oh yes well he has to produce an executors account and he can be held liable for things that he did not deal with such as the cheques' - but that is going to cost myself and sibling money to drag him through the legal system to get justice for ourselves.

I think the only thing you can do is to call a family meeting to discuss one family member removing items from the house, and this one person taking over medical aspects of your fathers care.
As regards executor can you speak to your father and ask him to change the executor of his will? I asked my own father to change his many times over the years and he agreed in principle but never bothered actually doing it. And as a result Ive had a year of frustration and many more years of frustration ahead by the looks of things.

What are your fathers thoughts on any of this or is he unaware that you feel this way?


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## Stifster (3 Jan 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Thats what I thought until I found myself in the position of my fathers brother being executor of his will and due to bad blood in the family (and the executor being a santicmonious judgemental control freak) I discovered that an executor can make life very difficult and can cost the estate a lot of money. This man has refused to speak to myself or sibling since our parents death last january and did NOTHING as regards his executor duties until a couple of months ago despite us sending him requests from our own solicitor asking him to either take up his executorship or renounce it (costing us money to send the letters), most recently he has had a valuation done on the family home that cost more than double the highest quote we had for a valuation. He has not bothered to deal with social welfare cheques that are now long out of date, that myself and sibling were not allowed lodge because ONLY the executor can do this.
> People say 'oh yes well he has to produce an executors account and he can be held liable for things that he did not deal with such as the cheques' - but that is going to cost myself and sibling money to drag him through the legal system to get justice for ourselves.


 
That is a fair point and I was wondering if the OP had fears of something similar.  

As it stands the father is the only person who can change anything now.


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## BOXtheFOX (3 Jan 2008)

The executor is in possession of my father's will "for safe keeping". I am certain that both he and his wife (my sister) know what is in my father's will. No other family member has seen the will.
My concern is that my sister who is regularly talking about becoming my fathers Power of Attorney and her husband the executor will have complete control over my father's assets.


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## Welfarite (3 Jan 2008)

You say that your father is fine mentally. Therefore, IMHO, you should talk to him about what you think is going on, emphasising that you are only worried that his wishes will not be carried out and that, it would be easier if another executopr, maybe somebody outside the family was appointed. 

I find the fact of talking about "power of Atttorney", taking small items from house adn control of assets caht disconcerting adn I'm sure your father will too, even if it is his daughter!


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## truthseeker (3 Jan 2008)

BOXtheFOX said:


> The executor is in possession of my father's will "for safe keeping". I am certain that both he and his wife (my sister) know what is in my father's will. No other family member has seen the will.
> My concern is that my sister who is regularly talking about becoming my fathers Power of Attorney and her husband the executor will have complete control over my father's assets.


 
Do you know what is in the will? If you are not a beneficiary at all then I suppose it doesnt matter what is in it.

Are you more concerned about this couple having control over your fathers assets in his lifetime or after his death? 

Will your father agree to Power of Attorney or is this something that is being considered without his knowledge?

As Stifster says your father is the only person who can change anything now, and if he wants this couple to be in charge of his assets then that must be respected.

Just to look at this situation from an objective viewpoint if your sister is taking your father to medical appointments and making suggestions to the doctor about medications etc... then it would appear that she is looking after him to some extent. Is it possible that she has your fathers best interests at heart here? 
If her husband has the will 'for safe keeping' then obviously your father trusts this couple? So perhaps it would be in keeping with his wishes that they take control of matters to do with his assets?

Is your father happy with the current situation? You mention your sister is very manipulative - what makes you think this? Who would be bringing him to medical appointments if it wasnt her?


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## sam h (3 Jan 2008)

Is it possible that your father has given these items to her as a thank you for looking after him?  I would be concerned that she is over-medicating him, but you said that she said that this was something she discussed with the doctor to "calm him down", is he agressive?  

Looking after a relatives appointments and medication can be very time consuming, so maybe you could consider offering to take over some of these duties.  Family can be all to quick to conplain but often slower to offer real, hands on solutions (I know from experience).

Before you start causing conflict, you have to honestly ask yourself is your sister helping your father more than hindering him, and if the former, you may be best to let tihings lie for the overall welfare of your dad.  If you honestly feel she is taking advantage of him, you have a moral obligation to try and look after your fathers best interests (not your inheritance!).


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## BOXtheFOX (3 Jan 2008)

It is good to get a broad range of comments and suggestions from complete strangers outside the family.  My father never cooked a meal for himself during his lifetime nor washed an item of clothing. It suited him to become an instant invalid after my mothers death and play helpless. He puts on a certain helpless act in front of my sister who is using his dependancy on her to her full advantage. Often other members of the family who are offering their help are rebuffed by my father. I know when she goes to the doctor with him she is "winking" and "nodding" to the doctor behind his back. She has said so.
When she was on holidays recently he got the bus to the doctor himself and made his own way home. I felt that he wanted to see the doctor by himself without interference. 
He was adamant that the items that disappeared from the house were not given away yet after he had spoken to my sister he changed his story said that he had given these items to her. I felt that perhaps he was afraid of her and might have changed his story out of fear.
I would say that my sister does more for my father than other members of the family. I know that he is capable of doing more for himself but is not allowed. I also think it sometimes suits him to play helpless. She told the doctor that she didn't want him driving anymore and the doctor has agreed with her that this should be the case. As a result his dependancy on her is increasing.
I am just concerned that the "long game" is being played here.


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## truthseeker (3 Jan 2008)

it certainly sounds like there is an amount of co-dependency and dysfunction going on here.

so your dad has decided he wants to be a helpless person who someone minds and it suits your sister fine to mind him because perhaps she likes to be in control or she thinks there will be a financial reward at the end of it?

It sounds like they have a co-dependant relationship to some degree.

My honest advice on the issue is to let them behave whatever way they want to behave and you look after yourself. You can break your heart trying to make people behave in a way you want them to but it doesnt work. There are two people in this situation who WANT to do the things they are doing (your father acting helpless, your sister acting minder), his dependency on her increasing because the doctor/sister agreeing he isnt to drive anymore is no doubt something he 'allowed' to happen. 

If its your fathers welfare you are worried about you can only do what any good child would do and check in on him, help him out when you can, talk to him and help look after him - sharing responsibilities of driving him to doctors appointments etc...

If its your inheritance your worried about then you have to accept that its actually your fathers money/assets and entirely his choice what he wants to do with them. You may feel your sister is manipulating herself into a closer position with him but ultimately she is giving her TIME to him which is not without its own cost both emotionally and financially.

I think if she is playing the 'long game' then thats her choice and also your fathers choice if he plays into her hands. Its also your choice how much time you spend with and how close you are to your father - there is nothing to stop you from making the situation a bit more equal as regards the amount you do for your father.

Is your real fear more about what your father decides to do with his assets as opposed about an unhelpful executor?


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## mercman (8 Jan 2008)

I have seen this type of greed so many times previously. In case you think you are imagining anything untoward, the correct manner for your sister-in-law would be to report back to ALL family members concerning your father.  The first thing you should be doing, if you have any suspicions, is to pay a visit to the doctor and  discuss the matters with him. You do not know what he is been told by the sister-in-law. Forget the money for a second - his welfare and health are of primary importance. You didn't mention what age your father is ??? From speaking from my own experience they become very dependant and can be easily swung to a different mindset.  Despite what others say you do have a write to look after your own inheritance  because simply if you don't nobody else will. The will should be in a Solicitor's office -- end of story. An executor only comes into play after a death. There is absolutely no role to play prior to this. I've been an executor a number of ties, my brother has and I have also seen a number of circumstances similar to yours where it has cost potential benficiaries litterally millions by the Greed of others. There is no point in trying to do something after your father has died - it will be too late. Call a meeting for  discussion. If you  find that  others become heated you will then know  if there is another agenda. Let's face it after your father has passed on, it appears that you will not be having to much contact with your brother / sister-in-law anyway. Time for ACTION before it is to late.


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## mercman (8 Jan 2008)

I forgot to mention did your father have a good relationship with his solicitor ??  If so it might be the right time for him (the solicitor) to make contact to redo the will on an even basis as per what your father woud have wanted when he was in the fullness of mind and to also get an independent opinion in case this whole thing ends up in dispute.


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## sam h (8 Jan 2008)

> The will should be in a Solicitor's office -- end of story


 
There is no obligation on anyone to use a solicitor to draft and/or hold a will.  It may be the most prudent option, but there is no legal obligation.  Also, unless his solicitor is a very close personal friend (and there is actually no mention of the father having a solicitor, let alone one who is a friend) I can't imagine any solicitor getting involved in this unless the father approached them directly, and even then it would have to be on a personal basis rather than a professional capacity.


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## mercman (8 Jan 2008)

Sure there is no obligation tom use a solicitor or in fact leave one's will at a solicitor's office. In the vast majority of cases this is what people do. There is a potential here to have something untoward happen, and personally I would prefer to have a solicitor acting for me than trying to fight greed on my own. We have not been told of the circumstances so unless more info is forthcoming we must work on the probability of logic.


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## mf1 (8 Jan 2008)

What probability of logic? 

The father is still alive, he is entirely compos mentis...........There has been some terrific advice given so far particularly from truthseeker: 

"My honest advice on the issue is to let them behave whatever way they want to behave and you look after yourself. You can break your heart trying to make people behave in a way you want them to but it doesnt work. There are two people in this situation who WANT to do the things they are doing (your father acting helpless, your sister acting minder), his dependency on her increasing because the doctor/sister agreeing he isnt to drive anymore is no doubt something he 'allowed' to happen.

If its your fathers welfare you are worried about you can only do what any good child would do and check in on him, help him out when you can, talk to him and help look after him - sharing responsibilities of driving him to doctors appointments etc...

If its your inheritance your worried about then you have to accept that its actually your fathers money/assets and entirely his choice what he wants to do with them. You may feel your sister is manipulating herself into a closer position with him but ultimately she is giving her TIME to him which is not without its own cost both emotionally and financially. "

A good solicitor will not get involved here - no issues arise as yet. The father is free to do what he wishes. The very last thing a solicitor should do is to make contact with a client on the nod of a potential beneficiary suggesting that the father should make a will to reflect anything!

mf


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## Marie (8 Jan 2008)

Though the situation is being represented through the OP's growing concern about sister's closer relationship with father, father's dependence upon and being influenced by, her and a few small items missing, BoxtheFox's perceived threat is that sister may obtain Power of Attorney as she has intimated. Combined with her husband's role as executor this disenfranchises the rest of the family..........both from contributing selves, services and assistance in father's last years. There is a suggestion it may lead to BoxtheFox's loss of an inheritance. Frankly anyone who claims that loss of an inheritance in this manner, with all the complex emotions stirred about the parent-child connection at a time when one is approaching loss of a remaining parent 'is not important', is wearing wings and halo. It's not human nature.

The suggestions of 'family-wide conference' _including father_ where these fears and anxieties can be got out in the open and discussed calmly would be a good idea if it can be managed. The willingness or otherwise of sister to attend (_sens _husband) will indicate whether your fears have a base. In that case you could volunteer yourself or another sibling as an alternative person to take out the Power of Attorney.

From personal experience that aspect of my sister's choices and behaviour around my parent's care and accommodation in the last years were especially difficult to witness as they were against my mother's expressed wishes before my sister assumed her powerful and dominant role and exerted influence on a frail dependent person.

There are a few specialists in Ireland on this aspect of law and I will retrieve them if that would be useful (but it will take a bit of time!) 

Most of all - try not to worry. Worry and fears will be more corrosive and destructive to your relationship with your father than anything an insensitive or power-seeking sibling can achieve.


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## mercman (8 Jan 2008)

Marie - I feel I must correct your excellent commentary on one point. Whilst I am unable to speak from the OP, i will have to disagree with you on one point. I don't believe its the loss of the inheritance is the problem -- its the manner of the way this is being done. The welfare of the parent is the most paramount matter. Put yourself in the position of the whispers and the giggles and perversion of laughing about a parent who unknowingly has had his medication increased, and without the knowing of a reason. Sure persons fall out with parents and get on with their lives - it is most uncommon that you hear of sanctimonious people pervert the course of life to accommodate their own means. Life is peculiar - humans are more peculiar still. There is no such episode in life as textbook life or death. We all come in the same way as we all go out - sometimes its just different methods and manners to the end game.


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## Tadhgin (11 Jan 2008)

Marie,

Contact your own solicitor. Ask him or her to contact your father's solicitor, and to record, at this point, your belief, that a will may exist that is not in the control of your father. 

I would also suggest that you draw your solicitor's attention to your belief that inappropriate use of medication is being undertaken to control your father. This is a serious issue.

I would also advise that your solicitor request your father's solicitor to undertake a subtle interview of your father, to ascertain he is not being bullied in any way.

There are very specific restrictions as to who may or may not witness the making of a will.

Tread carefully and with discretion, but ensure that you are in a position where you can say, in the future "I did my best".


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## mercman (12 Jan 2008)

Tadhgin - Well worded. The fact that the OP has been notified of the 'correct' thing to do allows for a complete removal of guilt in later years. If the matter is placed before a solicitor, it could be used if anything untoward were to occur, If nothing happens then it can be simply dismissed. But a clear conscience in later years outweighs any amount of inheritance


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## BOXtheFOX (12 Feb 2008)

I have taken advice from those of you who have contributed to this discussion. I have increased the visits to my father but unfortunately any discussions that I have with him can only be described as smalltalk. It has come to my attention that the subject of Power of Attorney is being discussed quite forcibly with my father behind my and other family member's backs. Last week he was driven to his bank by my sister and Power of Attorney forms were collected by him, presumably to do with his bank accounts. Despite all this activity taking place he has never once mentioned it to me and he is happy to continue with his "smalltalk" to me whenever I visit.
On one of my visits I met my sister just as I was leaving his house and within 30 seconds of me meeting her she blurted out that an aunt of a friend had had a stroke and had to be put in a home. There was no Power of Attorney over her and her family had to mortgage their houses to pay for her nursing home costs!! She then suggested that we should consider doing this for our father. However what she didn't mention was the amount of work and fear that had already gone in to her discussions with my father. I think that I would have heard absolutely nothing about this Power of Attorney only for this chance encounter.


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## truthseeker (12 Feb 2008)

BOXtheFOX said:


> I have taken advice from those of you who have contributed to this discussion. I have increased the visits to my father but unfortunately any discussions that I have with him can only be described as smalltalk. It has come to my attention that the subject of Power of Attorney is being discussed quite forcibly with my father behind my and other family member's backs. Last week he was driven to his bank by my sister and Power of Attorney forms were collected by him, presumably to do with his bank accounts. Despite all this activity taking place he has never once mentioned it to me and he is happy to continue with his "smalltalk" to me whenever I visit.
> On one of my visits I met my sister just as I was leaving his house and within 30 seconds of me meeting her she blurted out that an aunt of a friend had had a stroke and had to be put in a home. There was no Power of Attorney over her and her family had to mortgage their houses to pay for her nursing home costs!! She then suggested that we should consider doing this for our father. However what she didn't mention was the amount of work and fear that had already gone in to her discussions with my father. I think that I would have heard absolutely nothing about this Power of Attorney only for this chance encounter.


 

Hi boxthefox,
you say that your own conversations with your father have amounted to small talk - but that it has come to your attention that Power of Attorney has been discussed quite forcibly - how has this come to your attention, presumably your father has not said so, and equally you say your sister has not said so? I just wonder if whoever is giving you information might be exaggerating or stirring things up? 

How about asking your father directly has your sister been discussing Power of Attorney with him and if so what are his thoughts on it? Is that a practical option?


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## putsch (12 Feb 2008)

Its a very difficult situation. I think the complex emotions can only be appreciated when one goes through this oneself. I've had to deal with this kind of situation in the family and also regularly see it through work so I've an idea of what you're feeling.

The thing I would recommend is to keep the channels of communication open to your father and encourage the rest of the family to do the same. If your father is consciously or otherwise manipulating the situation to maximise the level of attention he'll be delighted to have more people make a fuss of him - it'll also help to keep his mental capabilty high and reduce your sister's control.  

Incidentally if what is being spoken about is an Enduring Power of Attorney (EPA) this is set up while the person is mentally competent but only becomes effective when the donor loses competence as certified by a doctor - it also requires a number of members of the family to be notified if it is being put in place so you or some of your siblings have to be notified.


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## gm88 (12 Feb 2008)

BOXtheFOX said:


> On one of my visits I met my sister just as I was leaving his house and within 30 seconds of me meeting her she blurted out that an aunt of a friend had had a stroke and had to be put in a home. There was no Power of Attorney over her and her family had to mortgage their houses to pay for her nursing home costs!!.


 
The family are not responsible for the costs of the nursing home.  Subvention is applied for from the HSE which helps with the costs of nursing homes.  The amount granted depends on his income/savings.


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## Michelle (12 Feb 2008)

This is obviously a difficult situation. I think you need to sit down and talk this out with someone, be it a friend, solicitor etc. 

There is nothing at all stopping you from taking the initiative and creating the enduring power of attorney. You could talk to your father about this asap. It means that if he ever should become incapacitated, you would be in charge of his assets. If family war breaks out over this, both you and your sister could be joint attornies. She could hardly argue with you, it was her great idea afterall!


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