# 2009 Lions Party for Tour to South Africa



## mathepac (21 Apr 2009)

14 Irish players named with Paul O'Connell as captain, our biggest representation by far.

Any surprises / disappointments?


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## Sunny (21 Apr 2009)

Alan Quinlan was a shock. Delighted for him though.


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## DavyJones (21 Apr 2009)

Alan Quinlan and to a lesser extent Earls.

Am also surprised that they have only chosen two out halfs in the form of O Gara and Jones, who in my book are very similar players.


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## baldyman27 (21 Apr 2009)

DavyJones said:


> Alan Quinlan and to a lesser extent Earls.


 
Agreed. Also thought that Hayes would have been an outside chance and disappointed for the man.


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## mathepac (21 Apr 2009)

Irish Lions - 


 Forwards:
Ferris
Flannery
Heaslip
O'Callaghan
O'Connell (capt.)
Quinlan
Wallace
 
 Lady boys:
Bowe (1st Monaghan Lion?)
Earls
Fitzgerald
Kearney
O'Driscoll
O'Gara
O'Leary
 
Hayes was unlucky, but age was against him, although Simon Shaw (mid-week captain?) is a couple of years older.
IRL 14, WAL 13, ENG 8, SCO 2


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## TarfHead (21 Apr 2009)

mathepac said:


> .. age was against him, although Simon Shaw (mid-week captain?) is a couple of years older.


 
Hayes is not rated outside of Ireland.

And I assume Vickery is being brought to be mid-week captain ?


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## The_Banker (21 Apr 2009)

There appears to be more Lions from Munster than from the whole of England.


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## TarfHead (21 Apr 2009)

The_Banker said:


> There appears to be more Lions from Munster than from the whole of England.


 
8 each - more Leinster than Scots  !


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## Sunny (21 Apr 2009)

TarfHead said:


> Hayes is not rated outside of Ireland.
> 
> And I assume Vickery is being brought to be mid-week captain ?


 
I agree. Unfortunately for Hayes, he doesn't get the credit for the work he does in the lineout lifting O'Connell. Also outstanding work on the fringes of rucks. I guess as a prop though you are judged on one thing and that is the scrum and as good as he has become in recent years, he is still liable to have the odd bad game. Cian Healy destroyed him recently. He is a legend though!

My test team at the moment:
Byrne
Williams
Bowe
O'Driscoll
Shanklin
Philips
Jones
Heaslip
Wallace
Williams
Jones
O'Connell
Jenkins
Flannery
Sheridan

Couple of close calls there as well. You could certainly imagine Kearney, Earls, O'Gara, O'Callaghan playing their way on to the test team


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## DavyJones (21 Apr 2009)

TarfHead said:


> Hayes is not rated outside of Ireland.




more to do with his age I think, He did travel with the Lions in 05.


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## DavyJones (21 Apr 2009)

1. Jenkins
2. Flannery
3. Murray
4. Jones
5. O'Connell
6. Ferris
7. Williams
8. Wallace

9. Philips
10. O Gara
11. Williams
12. Roberts
13. O Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Byrne

At 10, it's much of a muchness. Tough call for 12, with flutely and Shanklin.


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## csirl (21 Apr 2009)

Should be renamed the "Irish & British Lions"


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## Purple (21 Apr 2009)

csirl said:


> Should be renamed the "Irish & British Lions"



Or the Irish and Welsh Lions?


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## DavyJones (21 Apr 2009)

Purple said:


> Or the Irish and Welsh Lions?



Or the Munster Lions plus guests.


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## Purple (21 Apr 2009)

DavyJones said:


> Or the Munster Lions plus guests.



8 out of 37... might be a bit of a stretch.


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## Caveat (21 Apr 2009)

csirl said:


> Should be renamed the "Irish & British Lions"



I thought the squad actually _was_ referred to as this at one stage - no?


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## DavyJones (21 Apr 2009)

Purple said:


> 8 out of 37... might be a bit of a stretch.




maybe, but eight from a club/provincal team is pretty impressive.


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## DavyJones (21 Apr 2009)

Caveat said:


> I thought the squad actually _was_ referred to as this at one stage - no?



British and Irish Lions.


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## Purple (21 Apr 2009)

DavyJones said:


> maybe, but eight from a club/provincal team is pretty impressive.



It's very impressive but then again Munster is the best club/provincial team (by a mile) in the Northern hemisphere so it's only right that this is reflected in the Lions selection.


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## mathepac (21 Apr 2009)

Purple said:


> It's very impressive but then again Munster is the best club/provincial team (by a mile) in the Northern hemisphere ...


Apparently the word has spread to Southern hemisphere players that its the pinnacle of Northern hemisphere rugby and the team to be involved with.


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## z104 (21 Apr 2009)

More like the celtic tigers than the Irish & British Lions.


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## Madangan (21 Apr 2009)

Sky nearly always say"British Lions"..drove me mad last time but today Ive heard British & Irish Lions on Sky all the time..I think they have included  "& Irish" more often today than in their entire discussions about the last tour in New Zealand! Amazing what a couple of Heinekens, a Magners,a Grand  slam and 14 players can achieve.


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## Slash (22 Apr 2009)

Taking only two out halves is a big risk, especially as O'Gara is so out of form.

Also, why was D'Arcy omitted? I thought he had a good Six Nations.


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## DavyJones (22 Apr 2009)

Slash said:


> Taking only two out halves is a big risk, especially as O'Gara is so out of form.
> 
> Also, why was D'Arcy omitted? I thought he had a good Six Nations.



Form is temporary, Class is permanent. Have you seen him play for Munster lately?

Mcgeehan has said he won't take any player struggling or coming back friom injury.

They can always send for another 10 if one picks up an injury.


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## Purple (22 Apr 2009)

DavyJones said:


> Form is temporary, Class is permanent. Have you seen him play for Munster lately?
> 
> Mcgeehan has said he won't take any player struggling or coming back friom injury.
> 
> They can always send for another 10 if one picks up an injury.




O'Gara is a great player but defensively he is limited (or at least it's the weakest part of his otherwise outstanding game) and he can get rattled and have the odd brutal game.

I agree on D'Arcy; outstanding player but not enough game time since injury.


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## Teatime (22 Apr 2009)

Purple said:


> O'Gara is a great player but defensively he is limited (or at least it's the weakest part of his otherwise outstanding game) and he can get rattled and have the odd brutal game.
> 
> I agree on D'Arcy; outstanding player but not enough game time since injury.


 
The nature of a tour like this will mean lots of injuries and lots of replacements especally againsy a side as physical as the Springboks. D'arcy still has a very good chance of making the squad. Hayes too.


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## baldyman27 (22 Apr 2009)

I think that with adequate protection - strong, mobile back row, Phillips at scrum-half, Shanklin and O'Driscoll at centres - O' Gara is the choice at 10. Of course, a lot will depend on how O ' Connell and Jones/O' Callaghan fare against Matfield and Botha in the line-out. If they can gain an upper hand here, then O' Gara's territorial game could be vital. Also, he has been dictating games out of hand much more lately for Munster since Warwick and O' Leary (and Leamy!!) have started kicking for yards. He does need protection though, otherwise the 'Boks will run right over him.


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## Firefly (22 Apr 2009)

Purple said:


> O'Gara is a great player but defensively he is limited (or at least it's the weakest part of his otherwise outstanding game) and he can get rattled and have the odd brutal game.


 
+1 ... the Boks will target him in a big way.


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## Sunny (22 Apr 2009)

Firefly said:


> +1 ... the Boks will target him in a big way.


 

O'Gara has been targeted in every game for years and has always delivered more often than not. As pointed out above, with intelligent tactics, it is possible to protect the 10 channel. If he was to play he would have a big back row, a big scrum half and two big centres to help him. Shanklin, Roberts or Flutey at 12 are all big defenders. 
I think Jones will be first choice getting on the plane but have sneaky feeling O'Gara will play himself onto the test team.


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## Mucker Man (22 Apr 2009)

I know who I'd prefer to be taking a penalty or drop goal attempt in the final minutes of a big game on my team. O'Gara gets targeted both legally and illegally, but he always gets up and on with it.


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## Purple (22 Apr 2009)

Sunny said:


> O'Gara has been targeted in every game for years and has *always delivered more often than not*.


Eh?


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## Sunny (22 Apr 2009)

Purple said:


> Eh?


 
You should be the last one to point out typos today!

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=854073#post854073


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## Purple (22 Apr 2009)

Sunny said:


> You should be the last one to point out typos today!
> 
> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=854073#post854073


Everyone is fair game


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## Teatime (23 Apr 2009)

Mucker Man said:


> I know who I'd prefer to be taking a penalty or drop goal attempt in the final minutes of a big game on my team. O'Gara gets targeted both legally and illegally, but he always gets up and on with it.


 
For big pressure penalties I would suggest Patterson, he was 17 out of 17 in the 6 nations and he had amazing stats in the world cup year (was it 40 successful kicks in a row?). He is a kicking machine. 
I dont have the stats but I would imagine Jones has a better kicker average than O'Gara in this years 6 nations. O'Gara had a stinker against England where in fact it was O'Driscoll that kicked the important drop goal. O'Connell described O'Garas drop goal against Wales as "manky" but it went over, thank God!

For the Lions, I think Jones will shade the Test slot but its marginal.


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## mathepac (23 Apr 2009)

Madangan said:


> Sky nearly always say"British Lions"..drove me mad last time but today Ive heard British & Irish Lions on Sky all the time...


McGeechan's "British Isles team" / "British Isles players"is getting my goat - apparently not a SNP supporter!


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## MrMan (23 Apr 2009)

Teatime said:


> For big pressure penalties I would suggest Patterson, he was 17 out of 17 in the 6 nations and he had amazing stats in the world cup year (was it 40 successful kicks in a row?). He is a kicking machine.
> I dont have the stats but I would imagine Jones has a better kicker average than O'Gara in this years 6 nations. O'Gara had a stinker against England where in fact it was O'Driscoll that kicked the important drop goal. O'Connell described O'Garas drop goal against Wales as "manky" but it went over, thank God!
> 
> For the Lions, I think Jones will shade the Test slot but its marginal.


 
Pressure kicks are the ones taken to win the championship, that seal the trophy that your whole squad and coaching staff have strived to win and they are the ones that O'Gara has consistently hit. The winning drop goal against Wales which won the grand slam for us was at first described as 'manky' by PoC and later he changed his mind when he say the footage as RoG had to adjust his style because one of his own players had slowed the ball coming to him giving him less time to take position.

Heineken cups have also been won off his boot, and he is top scorer in HC so his pedigree would suggest that he is the front runner. Maybe if Jones converted his pressure kick he would be the front runner and not runner up as in the Championshiop.


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## Teatime (23 Apr 2009)

MrMan said:


> Pressure kicks are the ones taken to win the championship, that seal the trophy that your whole squad and coaching staff have strived to win and they are the ones that O'Gara has consistently hit. The winning drop goal against Wales which won the grand slam for us was at first described as 'manky' by PoC and later he changed his mind when he say the footage as RoG had to adjust his style because one of his own players had slowed the ball coming to him giving him less time to take position.
> 
> Heineken cups have also been won off his boot, and he is top scorer in HC so his pedigree would suggest that he is the front runner. Maybe if Jones converted his pressure kick he would be the front runner and not runner up as in the Championshiop.


 
O'Gara has missed plenty of pressure kicks too, we only remember the successful ones. Jones kick was from the half way line after 80 mins of rugby, twas outside his range but he had the confidence to go for it. But kicking is only one part of a complex outhalf's game and I personally think that Jones has grown as an outhalf since the arrival of Hook on the scene. I think Hook is a great outhalf and a decent kicker but their rivalry has made both players better. I think Jones is tougher physically and mentally than O'Gara but hopefully the latter will prove me wrong. My abiding memory of O'Gara on the 2001 Lions Tour was getting hammered to a pulp by a brute on a provincial side. He is going to get the same treatment and more in S.A. While I would love to see O'Gara start the 1st test for the Lions, I am doubtful.


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## dockingtrade (23 Apr 2009)

hayes should have went. Someone said earlier in this post he's not rated outside Ireland. He's rated very highly outside ireland, he's not rated as a scrummager. Theres far more rucks, mauls and lineouts in a match than there are scrums. His work around the field cant be measured, tackling around the fringes, stopping mauls and lifting in the lineout..whos going to lift O'Connell with the same effect. I think he'll be sent for at some stage (because of injuries) and could start a test.

In fairness overall it was a very fair selection, players picked totally on form.

they should just call it "the Lions" drop the rest


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## MrMan (23 Apr 2009)

Teatime said:


> O'Gara has missed plenty of pressure kicks too, we only remember the successful ones. Jones kick was from the half way line after 80 mins of rugby, twas outside his range but he had the confidence to go for it. But kicking is only one part of a complex outhalf's game and I personally think that Jones has grown as an outhalf since the arrival of Hook on the scene. I think Hook is a great outhalf and a decent kicker but their rivalry has made both players better. I think Jones is tougher physically and mentally than O'Gara but hopefully the latter will prove me wrong. My abiding memory of O'Gara on the 2001 Lions Tour was getting hammered to a pulp by a brute on a provincial side. He is going to get the same treatment and more in S.A. While I would love to see O'Gara start the 1st test for the Lions, I am doubtful.


 

But in fairness can you get much more pressure kicks than the drop goals which landed his team in history and a HC. He did get beaten to a pulp, but most guys would when they are stuck on the ground and its hardly evidence that suggests he hasn't got what it takes. Anyway like everything else in sport only time will tell.


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## DavyJones (23 Apr 2009)

Teatime said:


> For big pressure penalties I would suggest Patterson, he was 17 out of 17 in the 6 nations and he had amazing stats in the world cup year (was it 40 successful kicks in a row?).



Ah  now, it's not such a big deal when you will only kick the sitters.

There is no disputing O Gara's merits, the guys record speaks for itself.


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## DavyJones (23 Apr 2009)

Always think he will put it over.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7957420.stm

Happy days.


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## Teatime (23 Apr 2009)

DavyJones said:


> Ah now, it's not such a big deal when you will only kick the sitters.
> 
> There is no disputing O Gara's merits, the guys record speaks for itself.


 
Lets not forget that Jones has 2 Grand Slams. IMHO He should have been 1st choice Lions 10 in NZ but that tool Woodward went for an unfit Wilkinson.


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