# Use of mobile phones whilst driving



## Palerider (23 Sep 2013)

I've been taking more notice over the past few months of drivers using mobile phones, for making / receiving calls and a lot of people sending / reading text messages whilst behind the wheel....all illegal and dangerous at times of course.

I've sat having coffee outside various places and observed them passing by oblivious to what they were doing and not a care in the world, it is something of a game I play when I'm sharing a coffee with a colleague / friend / client, a real ice breaker ;-).

I'm just back from a few days in London....I did not see one person holding a mobile phone whilst driving, I mean not one and I was looking everywhere, it stood out.

Do we not have an epidemic in our country, I think it is ridiculous, especially when I've seen many HGV and van drivers so called professional drivers using phones whilst cornering without indicators in many cases, I know the Garda are stretched but we do need a solution.

The link to use if mobile phones whilst driving has been proved as dangerous with one case known to me as reported in the papers with proof the driver (who survived by the way ) was on his phone at the time his jeep crossed and hit an oncoming motorists car, the other motorist was killed, the information came out at the inquest and he was naturally prosecuted.

Is it just me noticing now or have we got far worse ?


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## blueband (23 Sep 2013)

I think the problem is that its so hard to police, plenty of people use a mobile while driving, to be honest ive done it myself. but nobody dose it if they see gaurds close by so its hard to detect.


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## Latrade (24 Sep 2013)

I think it has gotten worse, largely because of phone technology and lack of enforcement. A smart phone now includes social media, phone, music and texts, so much more contact to be had. Mind you I am surprised at how many people you see actually takling on the phone especially when, though not perfect, handsfree technology is so readily available and in a lot of cases integrated into the phone and car.

I still see truck drivers negotiating roundabouts while talking on a phone and usually when someone has done something stupid and nearly killed me it's a good bet they're on the phone. 

Though it's also annoying when someone stops the car in the middle of the road to take a call rather than finding somewhere safe to park.

When in the car I use my phone for podcasts/music and I did wonder whether selecting a track/programme was considered "use of". I suspect it is. Anyway, being able to select using voice control has got rid of that problem.

I agree with the OP, I think it has gotten worse and not just because the number of phones in use has grown. It is more concerning that those considered "professional drivers" still use their phones seemingly frequently.

You can get a device that will block calls on the phone while in motion, I know a few companies have installed them in vehicles, additionally advances in the accuracy of GPS in phones means it can tell if you are in a car or walking etc (though obvious not if you're a passenger or driver). 

It is easily spotted, but the only enforcement I've seem is a stern look off a Garda and sign language to hang up the phone.


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## Purple (24 Sep 2013)

I frequently use my phone the whole way through journeys.
Mind you it’s in a bracket on the windscreen and the SatNav function is on.

I do take and make phone calls as well but I use the headphone (in one ear) with speaker.


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## TarfHead (24 Sep 2013)

Irish people in "_not adhering to laws where it suits them to ignore_" shocker.


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## RonanC (24 Sep 2013)

Increase penalty points to say 6 (two hits and you are out) and conduct regular unmarked patrols.

From my observations of drivers in Dublin, men are the main culprits when it comes to talking on the phone while driving, but women are by far the worst culprits for using facebook/messaging while driving.


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## T McGibney (24 Sep 2013)

RonanC said:


> Increase penalty points to say 6 (two hits and you are out) and conduct regular unmarked patrols.



An utterly disproportionate penalty for what is in most cases a minor and largely inconsequential offence - compared, for example, to 2 penalty points for dangerous overtaking.


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## Purple (24 Sep 2013)

T McGibney said:


> An utterly disproportionate penalty for what is in most cases a minor and largely inconsequential offence - compared, for example, to 2 penalty points for dangerous overtaking.



Smoking while driving (banned in some countries) is probably as dangerous as being on the phone. So is eating or drinking while driving. Talking to other people in the car is probably as dangerous. Driving while tired is more dangerous than using your phone.
Speeding and aggressive driving, along with drink driving, are the major factors in RTA's.


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## RonanC (24 Sep 2013)

T McGibney said:


> An utterly disproportionate penalty for what is in most cases a minor and largely inconsequential offence - compared, for example, to 2 penalty points for dangerous overtaking.


 
How is the use of a mobile phone a minor offence? It is a very serious and dangerous offence - far worse than speeding* (in my opinion). If you are caught without an NCT certificate and are brought to court and convicted, it is an automatic 5 points, no matter what condition your vehicle is in. 

*Some of our roads are designed for much higher speeds, most motorways for example.


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## RonanC (24 Sep 2013)

Purple said:


> Speeding and aggressive driving, along with drink driving, are the major factors in RTA's.


 
It seems that data in relation to crashes has never been collected properly by Gardaí. 

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...ivers-use-of-phone-at-time-of-crash-1.1508131

The RSA estimate that 20-30% of all collisions are caused by distractions such as the use of mobile phones.


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## Purple (24 Sep 2013)

RonanC said:


> It seems that data in relation to crashes has never been collected properly by Gardaí.
> 
> http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...ivers-use-of-phone-at-time-of-crash-1.1508131
> 
> The RSA estimate that 20-30% of all collisions are caused by distractions such as the use of mobile phones.



What proportion of that 20-30% is made up by mobile phone use? The operative words in the quote are "such as". It might be 50% or it might be 0.5%. The quote is meaningless in the context of this discussion.


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## TarfHead (24 Sep 2013)

RonanC said:


> .. but women are by far the worst culprits for using facebook/messaging while driving.


 
.. or using a front-facing camera to check their make-up  ?


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## RonanC (24 Sep 2013)

Purple said:


> What proportion of that 20-30% is made up by mobile phone use? The operative words in the quote are "such as". It might be 50% or it might be 0.5%. The quote is meaningless in the context of this discussion.


 
RSA provided the 20-30% estimate.. the rest is added by me. As I said no data is collected by the Gardaí so it is impossible to give a correct breakdown of this figure.


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## Sunny (24 Sep 2013)

TarfHead said:


> .. or using a front-facing camera to check their make-up  ?



They also talk a lot to me when I drive so i get distracted. And they are always late which means I am always in a hurry. They are always ringing me on my way home to get me to pick something up. Think we just discovered the real reason for road traffic accidents.....


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## Palerider (24 Sep 2013)

So should we lobby to have use of a mobile phone whilst driving recatagorised and no longer an offence..well not in my book.

This does cause accidents both serious causing loss of life in that one case I'm familiar with and plenty of minor accidents and near misses including one idiot who cut me off in a small van on a roundabout, when I caught up and looked across at him ( 50 + by the way )  he was on his phone, notebook on the steering wheel and writing something down..lunacy.

People would want to drive in a bubble not to see other motorists in front of them speeding up then slowing down, speeding up, brakelights galore and often wandering in the road, be extra attentive to what you see yourselves over the coming days...drive defensely to protect your no claims bonus from these idiots.


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## dmos87 (24 Sep 2013)

T McGibney said:


> An utterly disproportionate penalty for what is in most cases a minor and largely inconsequential offence - compared, for example, to 2 penalty points for dangerous overtaking.


 

I have to disagree. I was rear-ended at the beginning of the year while at a complete stop, my car written off and my 6 week old baby had to be taken to hospital. Hearing my 6 week old baby roar like that still sends shivers down my spine. The boy (18) who hit into me admitted to the Garda at the scene that he had been on his mobile phone and hadn't seen traffic had come to a stop. He had ploughed into me at full force on the link. 

I for one would like to see that penalty brought in.


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## Sunny (24 Sep 2013)

The problem with traffic laws and Irish people is that Irish people think they are great drivers and they would never crash and are able to deal with any situation.


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## T McGibney (24 Sep 2013)

Palerider said:


> So should we lobby to have use of a mobile phone whilst driving recatagorised and no longer an offence..well not in my book.



Strawman. 

Nobody here has made any such suggestion.


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## T McGibney (24 Sep 2013)

dmos87 said:


> I have to disagree. I was rear-ended at the beginning of the year while at a complete stop, my car written off and my 6 week old baby had to be taken to hospital. Hearing my 6 week old baby roar like that still sends shivers down my spine. The boy (18) who hit into me admitted to the Garda at the scene that he had been on his mobile phone and hadn't seen traffic had come to a stop. He had ploughed into me at full force on the link.
> 
> I for one would like to see that penalty brought in.



Cases like this illustrate why the law must prohibit & penalise mobile phone use while driving (I presume the driver in this case wasn't using a hands free device) but the above account fails to advance the argument that using a phone is a bigger hazard than dangerous overtaking and correspondingly should attract three times more penalty points.


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## STEINER (24 Sep 2013)

I don't drive but when I am a passenger in my wife's car I see plenty of drivers holding their mobiles.  Its endemic and is embedded in the Irish driving machismo culture.  Last Sunday to give an example....we were leaving HX Hospice and a car was coming in the entrance/gate and it just stopped blocking incoming traffic.  I could see an elderly lady was driving and I remarked to my wife that I would get out and give the car a push.  Just then the lady started driving in and texting away without a care in the world!

I saw a bad case of the mobile phone driver when I was on a Bus Eireann bus a few months ago.  The driver answered his mobile at a village and continued having a full blown chat for the next 8km, through 2 more villages, a bad stretch of road through bog, 2 crossroads.  Phone held in left hand the whole time, right hand on steering wheel.  He kept talking away when a passenger got on and was paying his fare.  The fact that a fatal crash occurred a week previously on this 8km mattered nothing to him.  The bouquet is still at the crossroads today.  There have been a few episodes like this I have witnessed on the particular BE route.


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## dereko1969 (25 Sep 2013)

STEINER said:


> I don't drive but when I am a passenger in my wife's car I see plenty of drivers holding their mobiles. Its endemic and is embedded in the Irish driving machismo culture. Last Sunday to give an example....we were leaving HX Hospice and a car was coming in the entrance/gate and it just stopped blocking incoming traffic. I could see an elderly lady was driving and I remarked to my wife that I would get out and give the car a push. Just then the lady started driving in and texting away without a care in the world!
> 
> *I saw a bad case of the mobile phone driver when I was on a Bus Eireann bus a few months ago. The driver answered his mobile at a village and continued having a full blown chat for the next 8km, through 2 more villages, a bad stretch of road through bog, 2 crossroads. Phone held in left hand the whole time, right hand on steering wheel. He kept talking away when a passenger got on and was paying his fare. The fact that a fatal crash occurred a week previously on this 8km mattered nothing to him. The bouquet is still at the crossroads today. There have been a few episodes like this I have witnessed on the particular BE route*.


 
And what did Bus Éireann reply to you after you reported it to them?


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## Palerider (25 Sep 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Strawman.
> 
> Nobody here has made any such suggestion.


 
Strawman indeed, the forum is called letting off steam and as the OP I feel I can make that statement without you T McGibney being quite so condesending in your response which adds nothing to the thread.


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## T McGibney (25 Sep 2013)

Its hardly condescending to point out that you attacked a viewpoint that nobody here had expressed?


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## Palerider (25 Sep 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Its hardly condescending to point out that you attacked a viewpoint that nobody here had expressed?


 
Rubbish, My comment was clearly rhetorical, your reply was condesending, intended as such and added nothing to the thread, enough said.


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## T McGibney (25 Sep 2013)

Enough said indeed.


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## SoylentGreen (26 Sep 2013)

dereko1969 said:


> And what did Bus Éireann reply to you after you reported it to them?



I could have put money on it that you would pass a comment like this. You seem to spend your time waiting in the long grass to pounce. Incidentally have you ever come on AAM to ask advice or do you know everything?


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## Purple (26 Sep 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Its hardly condescending to point out that you attacked a viewpoint that nobody here had expressed?



I agree.

I am in favour of the current law but I consider other things, such as eating while driving, just as dangerous.
dmos87, if the 18 year old man who hit you was eating or talking to the person beside him should those things be banned? What if he was looking at a billboard or eyeing up a scantily clad young-wan should looking those things be banned?
The point is that anything that distracts a driver is dangerous (phones, food, adverts etc.). Anything that impairs driver reaction time is dangerous (alcohol, fatigue, drugs) and anything that reduces the opportunity to react (speed, fog) is dangerous. 
Being on a mobile phone is one of many things that drivers should not do. Let's stop pretending that it's a major issue. The reason it's banned is that it's easy to see.


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## RonanC (26 Sep 2013)

Purple said:


> I agree.
> 
> I am in favour of the current law but I consider other things, such as eating while driving, just as dangerous.
> dmos87, if the 18 year old man who hit you was eating or talking to the person beside him should those things be banned? What if he was looking at a billboard or eyeing up a scantily clad young-wan should looking those things be banned?
> ...


 
Having your phone stuck to the side of your head while talking is one issue, taking your eyes off the road and your complete attention to read and reply to a text message is a whole other kettle of fish. 

It just seems to me that some people on here, including yourself, do not see this as a major issue and are quick to disregard it, putting it in the same category as talking to a companion or looking at roadside advertising. While these are distracting, so is the act of looking at roadside directional signs for example. 

FYI - Eating or not paying attention to the road ahead can be prosecuted by the following provisions -

*Driver found to be driving carelessly *



*Driving without reasonable consideration*


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## Purple (26 Sep 2013)

RonanC said:


> Having your phone stuck to the side of your head while talking is one issue, taking your eyes off the road and your complete attention to read and reply to a text message is a whole other kettle of fish.
> 
> It just seems to me that some people on here, including yourself, do not see this as a major issue and are quick to disregard it, putting it in the same category as talking to a companion or looking at roadside advertising. While these are distracting, so is the act of looking at roadside directional signs for example.
> 
> ...



Where did I say texting while driving was ok?!

It would be a good idea to read posts before replying to them.
If you did then you'd realise that at no stage did I say that using your phone while driving (i.e. taking or making a phone call without a hands free kit) was ok or should be allowed. I didn't mention texting.


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## RonanC (26 Sep 2013)

Purple said:


> Where did I say texting while driving was ok?!
> 
> It would be a good idea to read posts before replying to them.
> If you did then you'd realise that at no stage did I say that using your phone while driving (i.e. taking or making a phone call without a hands free kit) was ok or should be allowed. I didn't mention texting.


 
You said... 



> Being on a mobile phone is one of many things that drivers should not do. Let's stop pretending that it's a major issue


 
and



> I consider other things, such as eating while driving, just as dangerous.


 

I am well able to read posts and always read in full. I am saying that using a mobile phone while driving is a major issue.


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## Purple (26 Sep 2013)

RonanC said:


> I am well able to read posts and always read in full. I am saying that using a mobile phone while driving is a major issue.



Ok, I'll ask you again so; where did I say that texting while driving was ok?


I said that being on the phone, i.e. talking on the phone, was one of many dangerous things that drivers do. All of them fall under "driving without due care and attention" so why is talking on the phone plucked out of the pile and giving it's own heading?

There's no evidence that having a phone conversation while holding a phone is more dangerous than using a hands-free device. It is the action of having a conversation with someone who isn't in the car that causes the danger.

Here's some evidence and general data.


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## nai (30 Sep 2013)

I think the way the law is written (that the offence is holding a phone takes into account that the action of looking at phone to press buttons to make / receive calls, respond to texts, facebook etc.) is fine but the enforcement is the issue.

It would be difficult for anyone trying to uphold the law to differentiate between someone holding a phone making a call or someone holding a phone to answer a text as they normally observe them from a distance.

I do agree that there is an epidemic - I commute on a motorbike through Dublin City daily and would love to have an automatic ticket system to give out 2 points to every driver or cyclist I see using / on a phone.

In the last couple of months I have seen / experienced it all with regard to people pulling out, u-turns, switching lanes, rear-ending, breaking lights all due to mobile phone use. Most of these were just observed with a few requiring some evasive action. I also see the shaving, makeup, even saw one fella plucking ear hair !

The worse case did affect me directly but luckily no damage was done (except to the car passeneger door) - 3 lanes of busy moving traffic (approx 45 kph) - Artic lorry & 40 ft in left lane, me in middle, car to my right. Lots of traffic both in front and behind so nowhere to go. I was almost level with passenger window when the car switched lanes over on top of me pushing me onto the artic. I blew the horn (130 dB Airhorn), no response, couldn't brake as there was a car right behind, kicked door a couple of times - no response - it was only when I nearly broke the window with an armoured glove that the driver looked up from her phone - I could see she was on Facebook and she nearly took out another car when she swerved back into her own lane. All happened in about 5 seconds. I wasn't able to get a number plate but would have reported for dangerous driving if I had - another reason to get that GoPro.


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## Latrade (30 Sep 2013)

There is a simple answer to why certain issues are legislated for and others not, ease of enforcement.

Whatever the statistics (difficult enough as they are to get) indicate regarding, say, Fatigue vs Intoxicants as a factor in accidents, it is impossible to measure fatigue, it is possible to measure intoxication. just because we can't measure and enforce both, it is no reason why we don't introduce legislation to at least eliminate one factor.

Similarly, the RSA and the Gardai are more than aware of the various distractions that can have an impact on driver safety. Some are easier to enforce than others (some like eating, etc, can still be enforced through Road Safety Legislation), but talking on a mobile phone is more obvious and easier to enforce, so it was legislated for. 

It's not saying its a greater risk than others, just it is an easier one to enforce and legislate for, so they did.


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## Purple (30 Sep 2013)

The danger when that happens is that other offences are ignored and the offence that is being targeted is seen as a greater problem than it actually is. Since the evidence suggests that use of a hands free kit is just as dangerous as holding the phone in your hand (how many people drive with one hand anyway?) but using a hands free kit is legal, people think they are not increasing their chance of being in a crash when they are using one to make or take calls while driving. The law is increasing complacency amongst drivers. Why not ban the use of any mobile phone while driving? That's what some countries have done. That's what the evidence suggests should be done.


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## Latrade (1 Oct 2013)

Purple said:


> Why not ban the use of any mobile phone while driving? That's what some countries have done. That's what the evidence suggests should be done.


 
That's actually under discussion. At the time of the initial mobile phone ban they accepted that handsfree could be as distracting, but the research at the time had only really focussed on holding a phone in your hand. But I remember that the allowance of a handsfree kit was done so grudgingly.

Then there are the technical problems of how you define it and what would be an exemption. For example, you could say mobile phone's are banned, but I can get an iPad with 3G access and make calls via an app, not a phone at all. So you would have to define it to capture everything, which would then include radios for emergency services, buses and haulage. 

As to evidence indicating one way or the other which is a greater risk, we're not in a position to state either way. Some studies have indicated the same risk of having a normal conversation as one on a phone, others show much greater risk from the phone alone. We've yet to reach a scientifc agreement on this issue and so advocates of either side can pick and choose which study they prefer the findings of. 

The issue of practicality has to come into though. How do you know someone is talking via handsfree and not just talking to themselves outloud, or signing to a song, or swearing at another idiotic radio phone-in? How do you enforce that? How do you enforce, in the event of it showing an equal risk, conversing with a passenger or telling a kid in the back to shut up or 'no, we're not playing that damned Thomas and Friends cd again.'? Impossible.

We can show there is a risk to talking while holding a phone, we can see it, we can enforce it, so we target that one as it's much more clear-cut and practical.

Some aspects of what presents a risk while driving (like say fatigue) will always have to be left to the driver, those that can be demonstrated to be a risk (and using the phone has, the debate is over what the risk is also equal to) and can be enforced will be.


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## RMCF (17 Oct 2013)

Using the phone whilst driving is now so common it would be easy to catch people imho. 

I see people each and every time I am out driving. Surely the Guards can too.


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## demoivre (17 Oct 2013)

Just seen a woman driving along below my house ( doing about 30 to 40 mph ) steering the car with both knees and the phone held in both hands - assume she's texting ! Could be watching a movie I suppose


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## Latrade (21 Oct 2013)

One for Purple:

http://www.thejournal.ie/children-1...e-car-than-your-mobile-phone-1139596-Oct2013/

I can attest to this being true, especially if I'm texting them while they're sat in the back.


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## Purple (21 Oct 2013)

Latrade said:


> One for Purple:
> 
> http://www.thejournal.ie/children-1...e-car-than-your-mobile-phone-1139596-Oct2013/
> 
> I can attest to this being true, especially if I'm texting them while they're sat in the back.



So making a phone call to distract yourself from the screaming kids in the back of the car may in fact make you a safer driver!


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## Latrade (23 Oct 2013)

Purple said:


> So making a phone call to distract yourself from the screaming kids in the back of the car may in fact make you a safer driver!


 
Not mentioned in the article, so cannot confirm, but your logic seems fine to me. I also presume recording the screaming kid to post onto facebook while driving is also safe.


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## Purple (23 Oct 2013)

Latrade said:


> Not mentioned in the article, so cannot confirm, but your logic seems fine to me. I also presume recording the screaming kid to post onto facebook while driving is also safe.


Well not safe but safer...


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## Latrade (23 Oct 2013)

Purple said:


> Well not safe but safer...


 
Look, the skills involved in doing that and lighting a cigarette and operate a vehicle at the same time, I should be canonised, not criminalised.


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## ashambles (23 Oct 2013)

The difference between a phone call and other distractions such as eating, smoking, adjusting radios, heating, or even changing gear is that for many people holding a phone conversation ends up taking almost 100% of their concentration. (I'd guess introverts will find phone calls more demanding than extroverts.)

 The other stuff is done either unconsciously or when you know the road ahead is safe for a second. 

A phone is different from talking to a passenger as most passengers see road dangers and know when to stop talking.

I would guess that a large proportion of minor collisions around cities and towns are being caused by mobiles or at least distractions of some kind. But we may never know the stats since the person who causes a minor accident isn't often going to admit they were on the phone, and even if the gardai are called they're not going to make any serious attempt to check phones if no-one is injured. 

Moving on to higher speed roads where more fatal accidents occur, I'd guess phones are less of a cause of accidents, these roads are probably more forgiving (in terms of number of accidents - not severity) of distracted drivers. The accidents may be caused by bad luck, or impatient, inexperienced, aggressive, drunk, ill drivers instead. 

As for gardai stopping drivers, the problem is that most of the time you see someone you're sure is using a phone you're driving past them the other direction, it's the same for gardai so pulling them over usually isn't straightforward. Maybe if they've a dash-cam they could issue fines like they do with speed cameras but they'd still need to be able to see the license plate.


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