# Start car and run engine to avoid freezing problems - good idea?



## circle (8 Jan 2010)

I've no intention of driving anywhere in this weather, but I was wondering if it would be better to start the car and run the engine every day or just leave it well alone until the weather clears up?

Thanks for any advice.


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## Caveat (8 Jan 2010)

I think every day is a bit excessive.  I would be happy with every 3-4 days.  Make sure the engine gets to full operating temperature.  It's better for the car to drive it rather than just letting it idle so if at all possible, I would do this.


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## pudds (8 Jan 2010)

If you don't want to drive it, I would run it everyday for a few minutes, but keep the revs up a bit so that your running it off the alternator and not the battery.  Also if you can take the battery out each day and keep in warm place in house would help or better still hook it up to a trickle charger if you have one.


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## mathepac (8 Jan 2010)

70 to 80% of engine wear occurs in cold-start situations. If you don't intend going anywhere, don't start your car. If it is protected by the correct engine oil and coolant, use a trickle charger to keep the battery topped up.


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## RonanC (8 Jan 2010)

a car never runs off a battery when the engine is running. The battery is only used to start the car. If you only intend to turn the engine on for a few mins as you say, you could end up draining the battery as you are not giving it a chance to recharge properly. Its best to leave it run for a good hour at least in the driveway, keeping an eye on it at all times are they are stories of cars driving away from houses with the owner looking at it going down the road.


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## sse (8 Jan 2010)

I'd say to leave it unless your car has a history of the battery discharging. A decent rule of thumb is that every start takes ten minutes of driving (not idling) to recharge.

No point putting the engine through the wear of a cold start for no reason. Bear in mind that disconnecting the battery may result in losing settings, locking the radio etc. 

Don't leave your car idling unattended under any circumstances, you won't be insured when it gets stolen.

SSE


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## newirishman (9 Jan 2010)

Don't start the engine if you don't intend to drive it. (In many countries this is actual illegal).
A cold engine is the worst, and it will not get warm when it is not under load.
If you don't use it for longer (that is, several weeks), disconnect the battery. 
Anything else doesn't make anything better.
Make sure there is a anti-frost liquid in the cooling system as well as wind screen washer system.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Jan 2010)

Caveat said:


> I think every day is a bit excessive. I would be happy with every 3-4 days. Make sure the engine gets to full operating temperature. It's better for the car to drive it rather than just letting it idle so if at all possible, I would do this.


 
I was doing it every 2nd day, but is so cold now that its killed the battery (which is a relatively new one) in under a day. Lots of cars on my road have had the same problem. 

Problem is if you move the car out of the drive so you can pull along side and jump it. You might not be able to get back in the drive if it still doesn't start.

I'm thinking once the battery is charged either by jumping/running the car, or by trickle charging the best idea might be to keep the battery somewhere warm.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Jan 2010)

newirishman said:


> ...A cold engine is the worst, and it will not get warm when it is not under load....


 
I don't get that. Any engine once started gets warm. How could it not? What has load got to do with it. Theres loads of explosions going on in the cylinder, even at idle.

They recommend leaving a cold engine tick over for a bit before driving off/ or reving it. This is to let the oil come up to temp and other things. 

Cold starts are harder on an engine and wear is increased. But it happens over a long time, not a week or two in a cold snap.


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## mathepac (9 Jan 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> ... What has load got to do with it. ...


or as Tina Turner might say -

"What's load got to do, got to do with it?
What's load but your vehicle in motion?"

An engine under normal load warms up faster and  is  less likely to develop ignition hot-spots or excessive wear than one that is left to tick-over at rest, and won't waste fuel.


AlbacoreA said:


> ... They recommend leaving a cold engine tick over for a bit before driving off/ or reving it.  ...


I'm not sure who "they" are but IME "they" don't know a whole heap about anything.

Leaving engines to tick-over is intrinsically bad for them and wasteful of fuel (modern vehicles have "stop / start" technology built-in to avoid this).

I agree that engines should not be placed under heavy stress until 
they reach normal operating temperatures, diesels and turbo-charged engines in particular.


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## MandaC (9 Jan 2010)

Also in this vein, we heard about someone this week who started their car to heat it up and went back in to do something. Car ticking over with keys in the ignition.  Car gone.  CCTV showed 2 hoodies driving it away.  Be careful.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Jan 2010)

The vast majority of modern cars do not have stop start technology. 

It charges the battery quicker driving it for 15~30 mins than idling it. How much longer I don't know. Something like 4 times quicker was one thing I read. I've not seen any facts on it. A cold start is more harmful than a warm start. But its not going to make a difference over a couple of days. That effect is over years. A modern catalytic converter might be damage by a lot of idling, I don't know. Do you have any stats on that?

However these are not normal conditions, its -6 and lower last night. Which is killing batteries, maybe even freezing them internally. Also with the road conditions. You might not be able to pop out for a quick spin for 30 mins. Ideally in temps that cold you'd keep the car inside. Alternatively have an engine/battery heater, and even a float/trickle charger. Even remove the battery and keep out of the cold. 

Not sure how many people in Ireland would have that, or the skills to remove a battery. So whats the last option than everyone can do. Charge the battery on idle. Ideally run the car at higher revs than idle. Same thing as driving it down the road.  

Its obviously not something to do a lot. Not sure why people would do that a lot.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Jan 2010)

MandaC said:


> Also in this vein, we heard about someone this week who started their car to heat it up and went back in to do something. Car ticking over with keys in the ignition. Car gone. CCTV showed 2 hoodies driving it away. Be careful.


 
Would the insurance even cover that? I dunno.


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## musicfan (9 Jan 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> Not sure how many people in Ireland would have that, or the skills to remove a battery. So whats the last option than everyone can do. Charge the battery on idle. Ideally run the car at higher revs than idle. Same thing as driving it down the road.


 
This may be a stupid question but do you mean start the car and keep you foot on the accelerator for a while???


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## MandaC (9 Jan 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> Would the insurance even cover that? I dunno.



No I would not think insurance would cover that at all.   Lucky enough car was found in an underground car park.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Jan 2010)

musicfan said:


> ...
> This may be a stupid question but do you mean start the car and keep you foot on the accelerator for a while???


 
Yes but you'd be better taking it for a drive. If you can.


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## Caveat (9 Jan 2010)

MandaC said:


> No I would not think insurance would cover that at all.



It definitely doesn't.


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## haminka1 (9 Jan 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> I was doing it every 2nd day, but is so cold now that its killed the battery (which is a relatively new one) in under a day. Lots of cars on my road have had the same problem.
> 
> Problem is if you move the car out of the drive so you can pull along side and jump it. You might not be able to get back in the drive if it still doesn't start.
> 
> I'm thinking once the battery is charged either by jumping/running the car, or by trickle charging the best idea might be to keep the battery somewhere warm.



I'm confused now - there's no such thing as summer and winter batteries or cars and in most countries in Europe people use their cars in winter without any bigger problems. Any chance you'd get your car to service to have it checked? My car started after 3 days of standing outside in the snow without any problems.


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## newirishman (9 Jan 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> I don't get that. Any engine once started gets warm. How could it not? What has load got to do with it. Theres loads of explosions going on in the cylinder, even at idle.
> 
> They recommend leaving a cold engine tick over for a bit before driving off/ or reving it. This is to let the oil come up to temp and other things.
> 
> Cold starts are harder on an engine and wear is increased. But it happens over a long time, not a week or two in a cold snap.



What I mean is that it take much longer for an engine to heat up to normal temperature when you are not driving the car. I wouldn't rev a cold engine, only drive it with low rev until warm - the oil only gets proper liquid once it warms up. Reving up a cold engine is not a good idea.


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## newirishman (9 Jan 2010)

Lived in a country with winter temperatures regularly falling to -20 Centigrade for quite a few years. Had to switch the battery on average every 4 years in any car (new or used, diesel or petrol). 
Never started the car without driving it, and tried to avoid trips where the engine is not getting up to standard operating temperature. 
2 main reasons: You need a lot more petrol when engine is cold, and it creates much more toxic emissions. (But I don't think that in Ireland anyone cares about the environment too much anyway. Hardly anyone stops the engine when waiting at a level-crossing for example).
And loading the battery after a cold start takes longer as well.
I never had any problem after leaving the car untouched for weeks at sub-zero temperatures. The cars are usually engineered to take this kind of weather.
When driving a diesel, let the car pre-heat the diesel for a few seconds even if the manufacturer says it is no longer necessary with those new engines. Engine just starts easier.

Here is a nice page w info around cold engines: http://www.wolverineheater.com/engine-oil-heater/cold-engine-start.shtml
(NOTE: this is a commercial side, I neither recommend or not recommend the stuff they are trying to sell. But they explain the matter very well imo).


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## W200 (9 Jan 2010)

newirishman said:


> Don't start the engine if you don't intend to drive it. (In many countries this is actual illegal).


 In what countries and why ?


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## newirishman (9 Jan 2010)

W200 said:


> In what countries and why ?



For example Austria - because of the noise and for environmental reasons. (Apart from being pointless).
Hence many people buy a parking heater to heat up the engine and the car before they drive in the winter.
For example here: [broken link removed]


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## sse (9 Jan 2010)

In many countries which have a "proper" winter you can specify a fuel-burning pre-heater which warms the engine coolant and provides demisting etc. from the off.

Some BMW diesels have a Webasto one fitted, for example, but in the UK and Ireland it only works when the main engine is on. For those of you with a BMW you can get a mod. from dealers which allows you to start it remotely to provide pre-heating prior to starting the engine.

SSE


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## AlbacoreA (9 Jan 2010)

haminka1 said:


> I'm confused now - there's no such thing as summer and winter batteries or cars and in most countries in Europe people use their cars in winter without any bigger problems. Any chance you'd get your car to service to have it checked? My car started after 3 days of standing outside in the snow without any problems.


 
I assume it might depend where its parked. Front of my house seems especially exposed to the wind. If you parked at the side of a house or sheltered by trees it might all the difference. Also some cars have bigger batteries than others. 

I waited till after lunch and the battery actually had come back to life a bit, it was probably frozen solid when I tried it earlier. The web suggested that low batteries freeze at around -6c. Colder than that last night. Got a really long set of jump leads so I didn't have to move the car and it started first time. 

Apparently after reading up on it, there are actually different batteries you can get. Perhaps they are standard fit in colder countries I dunno. Theres a rating *Cold Cranking Amps* (CCA). And you can get heavier duty batteries.



> *What does CCA mean?
> *Cold Cranking Amps is a rating used in the battery industry to define a battery's ability to start an engine in cold temperatures. The rating is the number of amps a new, fully charged battery can deliver at 0° Farenheit for 30 seconds, while maintaining a voltage of at least 7.2 volts, for a 12 volt battery. The higher the CCA rating, the greater the starting power of the battery.


 
So you can get heavier duty batteries and even some with extra insulation etc. Again I dunno if these are standard fit in other countries. Insulation blankets and other devices are more common elsewhere. Also found the following.



> The automotive battery is a very interesting device on an automobile. There is no other part that is more neglected, and then expected to perform at peak capability. On top of this, the automotive battery responds to certain outside elements depending on the climate in which it is installed.
> 
> 
> For example, living in the Northwest, we are subjected to a moist and mild climate. This affects battery life in many different ways. For instance, moisture contributes to corrosion on the posts of a battery. This can drastically affect the starting capability of the battery, due to the electrical current having resistance to overcome before reaching its destination, which is usually the starter motor. This mild climate we live in also produces cooler weather. Cooler weather can cause starting problems due to a battery’s inability to respond by warming itself up. At 32 degrees Fahrenheit, a battery loses up to 50% of its starting ability. Insulation blankets are available, but most of the buying public does not invest in such preventative maintenance items.
> ...


 
I remember years ago people putting blankers and similar over engines at night, especially on equipment (not cars) that was hard to start.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Jan 2010)

W200 said:


> In what countries and why ?


 
I assume because of emissions and polution.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Jan 2010)

sse said:


> In many countries which have a "proper" winter you can specify a fuel-burning pre-heater which warms the engine coolant and provides demisting etc. from the off.
> 
> Some BMW diesels have a Webasto one fitted, for example, but in the UK and Ireland it only works when the main engine is on. For those of you with a BMW you can get a mod. from dealers which allows you to start it remotely to provide pre-heating prior to starting the engine.
> 
> SSE


 
Theres something about a pre heater in my VW manual. Only available  in certain markets.  I had forgotton about it, till you mentioned that.


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## sse (10 Jan 2010)

AlbacoreA said:


> Theres something about a pre heater in my VW manual. Only available  in certain markets.  I had forgotton about it, till you mentioned that.



Friends of ours (who live in the Jura mountains) have a preheater on their VW Sharan 2.0 TDI, had one on their previous Sharan 1.9 TDI. It's actually fitted on all BMW 3.0d engines, I believe, but you can't start it separately unless you get the fix from a dealer. They used to look at us funny when we said we had to run the car for a while on cold mornings to clear the screen, they just blip the preheat on, finish their cornflakes and coffee and drive off. Mind you, they have to have winter tyres on from Nov-April too!

SSE


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## Pennyscraper (12 Jan 2010)

Some of the MG ZTs had this as an option. Also the Rover 75s. Possibly on the cdti Bmw engine derived models?


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