# RTE news tonight. Jail threat for debt.



## Statto 22 (22 Sep 2009)

Hi, 

On the RTE News at 9 tonight they carried a report on a woman who had taken out an unsecured loan but fell into difficulty when she became ill and lost her job. 

What is scary about this case is the lady in question had agreed a payment of €25 pw to the creditor and had been paying it when out of nowhere they served a commital order on her for non payment of said debt and wanted to jail her. 

Now as I had understood the situation up to now no-one goes to jail for debt but rather for contempt of a court order and yet this person was not in contempt and yet was still served with a committal order. 

In the end she got her family to pay the debt but we are in seriously barbaric territory if this is actually the way we will proceed with debtors in this country. 

Either this or we a re getting sensationalised reporting from those at Montrose. 

Just to mention also I have no problems  with debt myself but my younger sister is in serious hock with the credit union and I have been on at her to come to a mutually agreed payment plan, she saw this report tonight and freaked!


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## JoeB (22 Sep 2009)

Hmmm.. yes, it was on the news today that 189 people have been jailed this year for non payment of debts..  does anyone know the average value of the debts?, the highest debt etc?

Can this info be found anywhere?, in court records perhaps?

Any of the millionaire developers in jail yet?


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## Bronte (23 Sep 2009)

As far as I know 200 people a year go to jail for debt, those that avoid are those that pay up. Some that go to jail can pay but refuse, others are those unable to pay. Those that do go to jail probably go through the revolving door system as they are not a serious threat to society. I believe the Law Reform Commission is trying to get Irish debt law changed as it is very archaic and not suited to our modern society.


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## Statto 22 (23 Sep 2009)

I would just really love to know the full details of this case. 

By all accounts it would seem that RTE are not telling us whether or not this woman ignored an installment order or whether there was actually a judgment even in place. Perhaps it was simply the implied threat of a strongly worded solicitors letter which mentioned a committal order as a last resort should she not pay more.

Either way it seems to fly in the face of a due process of getting protection from the courts. 

If its a case that her repayments were deemed insufficient to cover the loan and was threatened with the jail time even though she plainly wasn't able to meet her debt, well then we will have literally 10s of thousands of similar cases down the road.


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## TheShark (23 Sep 2009)

My understanding is that there is no "revolving-door" for debtors , they server their full sentence without remission , as they are not convicted criminals they are usually housed with remand prisoners and are allowed more frequent visits than other prisoners.


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## ailbhe (23 Sep 2009)

What worries me about this is that it will put people off speaking to their banks and trying to negotiate.
But you would imagine if someone is making some effort to pay their debt then the banks and courts wouldn't seek prosecution?

I have an unsecured loan and struggle to make the payments.
I missed one and immediately contacted my bank and worked out a plan to pay that months spread out over 4 months on top of the existing payments so that I wouldn't continue to fall behind.
However EVERY month I have gotten a call from someone in the bank looking for the outstanding payment! I then have to explain the whole thing yet again.
Do they not put notes up? 

I can see how this could escalate for me and look like I'm not paying etc.


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## Luckycharm (23 Sep 2009)

You cannot get sent to Jail unless you get an installment order and the debtor does not pay any installments.

It takes a long time to get a committal:- 

You first have to get a judgment with can take anything between 6 months to a year. 
Then you apply for an installment order which takes another 6 months plus at least. 
Then if the debtor still refuses to pay you go for a committal. 

Problem is most debtors just ignore everything and do not bother to show up to court for any of the hearings probably 90%. If you do not show up then the judge can make an installment order for anything he wishes. If he shows up and pleads their case with financial statements etc then 99% of the time the judge will give an installment order which they can afford to pay- the creditor is bound by this judgment.

There are two types of Debtor:- the ones who can't pay and the ones who won't pay!

If you can't pay contact your creditor and tell him plus back it up with Financials and 9/10 times you can both come to an agreement as to how to clear arrears - creditors would rather be getting something rather then nothing.

If you ignore all correspondence or won't pay for no valid reason then I have no sympathy and believe should be pursued as far as the legal process allows.


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## jackruby (23 Sep 2009)

i am considering the jail/court option.

i owe 36k 95% to AIB

but i am being staunch about it as i beleive they broke their confidentialty agreement by discussing my personal details to a builder that owed me money.

Now he won't pay me.


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## Luckycharm (23 Sep 2009)

jackruby said:


> i am considering the jail/court option.
> 
> i owe 36k 95% to AIB
> 
> ...


 

Are you a sole trader/Consumer- if so they cannot discuss your details with anyone else bar you. I would go to court and let the judge decide no matter what if you do not turn up then they will get judgement etc against you.


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## bond-007 (23 Sep 2009)

The law has been recently changed. Only those that *won't pay* can be sent to jail. Those that *can't pay* will not be jailed.


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## mf1 (23 Sep 2009)

jackruby said:


> i am considering the jail/court option.
> 
> i owe 36k 95% to AIB
> 
> ...



I've already posted this reply:  

" You owe money. Someone else owes you money. You have a debt to the Bank. Someone else has a debt to you. Why don't you make an attempt to recover the money owed to you? Then you could pay your debt.

Do you think that if you owe money to someone, but you are owed money by someone else, that you don't have to pay the money you owe?"

I think you are on a hiding to nothing expecting that the bank contacting one of your debtors makes their debt against you irrecoverable. 

mf


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## JoeB (23 Sep 2009)

jackruby said:


> i am considering the jail/court option.
> 
> i owe 36k 95% to AIB
> 
> ...



And what does the builder say? Why won't he pay you? Is he paying the bank instead or something?

Have you told the bank in writing that you are refusing to pay as they have disclosed your situation to a third party?

Did the bank contact the builder just to tell him? Or did the builder contact the bank? Has the bank confirmed that they disclosed your details?


Of course two wrongs don't make a right.. you should be following up on the builder yourself.. and complaining to the Financial Reg. about the banks breach of confidenciality. You most likely still owe the money although if the builder has told you he isn't paying you because of what the bank said then you have suffered a loss due to the bank disclosing your info, in which case you could try and get an out of court settlement with the bank.


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## rosey (23 Sep 2009)

The law has been recently changed. Only those that *won't pay* can be sent to jail. Those that *can't pay* will not be jailed.

This is not necessarily true...I know someone served 2 months in Mountjoy for non-payment of €14,000....not that he wouldn't pay- he couldn't pay...it definitely wasnt revolving door as another poster pointed out- he got no remission - served his fulltime and had no extra visits- one half hour visit from his family per week...a man who had absolutely no criminal record etc...who had a family but who got into debt he couldnt pay...


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## Statto 22 (23 Sep 2009)

here is the link real player needed

[broken link removed]


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## bond-007 (23 Sep 2009)

rosey said:


> This is not necessarily true...I know someone served 2 months in Mountjoy for non-payment of €14,000....not that he wouldn't pay- he couldn't pay...it definitely wasnt revolving door as another poster pointed out- he got no remission - served his fulltime and had no extra visits- one half hour visit from his family per week...a man who had absolutely no criminal record etc...who had a family but who got into debt he couldnt pay...


Again this would have been before the law was changed.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2009)

rosey said:


> This is not necessarily true...I know someone served 2 months in Mountjoy for non-payment of €14,000....not that he wouldn't pay- he couldn't pay...it definitely wasnt revolving door as another poster pointed out- he got no remission - served his fulltime and had no extra visits- one half hour visit from his family per week...a man who had absolutely no criminal record etc...who had a family but who got into debt he couldnt pay...


 
Did this person go to court and plead his inability to pay?  Judges have been known to make installment orders of 5 Euro's or so where the debtor has no money.  Could you give us more details of this case.


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## alaskaonline (24 Sep 2009)

> As far as I know 200 people a year go to jail


 
what worries me here is more the fact that 200 people are sent to jail on tax payers money because they were given loans by irresponsible, gready banks which were supported by the very same government who haven't changed the law about it yet - the very same one which wonders now why the state depth hasn't decreased. AND then they support NAMA to print irony on top of it!!!


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## Luckycharm (24 Sep 2009)

Bronte said:


> Did this person go to court and plead his inability to pay? Judges have been known to make installment orders of 5 Euro's or so where the debtor has no money. Could you give us more details of this case.


 
Agreed I would be very surprised if this guy went to court to plead his case- if they never show up to court then it is up to the courts discresion- I have never seen a judge give more then 3 weeks and they normally get a stay of execution of a few months as well.


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## VOR (24 Sep 2009)

Spartan said:


> ah man, this is craaaaaaaaap, until now I was saying , ah feck it , lets just go with NAMA ride along for 5 or so years and we can all get our lives back together, but if the hot shot developers are not going to jail then why are the joe soaps.
> This is an ignorant view, I know it is, but the way I see it there are SOOOO many people going to be in trouble, the people who get in there and try and sort it out will be ok in the end, the others, generally the lower classes, unskilled people who got money when it was available and are now screwed will be screwed further, cos they have no discipline and cant handle themselves, sad but true, I can barely manage MYself, I think its so unfair that these people are gonna take a big hit for this, because they were minipulated by bank lenders who were trying to make targets
> 
> but..... big shot developer, half of which are just lucky builders who came good out of the 80's are no better than any of these people, and any of the normal people in trouble........so If joe soap is going to jail, feck it they should see some steel doors too.


 
From sitting in court rooms (don't ask) I have noticed that it is often credit unions and the likes of GE that take people to court for instalments and not the NAMA banks. The main banks are actually very slow to go down this route. I would say less than 25% of the cases relate to AIB/BOI. 
The credit unions don't seem to negotiate that well with people and it quickly deteriorates from debt to instalment order to jail. 
If any body out there works in a credit union, I would love to hear your views.


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## VOR (24 Sep 2009)

I found an Irish Times article from April this year to back up my opinion. 

[broken link removed]

Anecdotal I know but it is from a reputable source.


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## kaplan (29 Sep 2009)

VOR
You are correct - credit unions make use of law agents far too quickly in the main because they have exceptionally poor competencies in collecting loan arrears. And keep in mind the stats you are seeing in the press relate to loans that went bad before the crash. Four years ago, during the boom, credit unions reported loan delinquency rates that were at the time shocking - seven out of ten were experiencing loan arrears in excess of the outer limits of prudent loan portfolio performance -this was at a time when one would have expected to see the opposite. The response was to take a tough line which meant outsourcing collection to law agents which in turn fed through into court activity and rising judgements etc.


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## Kev (29 Sep 2009)

It makes no sense in locking people for non payment of debt, it will be the tax payer that will have to keep them in prison. 

As it is not a criminal offence for owing money the court should instead of locking people up instead the court should make people do community services as debt repayment to the community. 

There are lots of community programmes that would benefit from this and also it would help people that had debt get back on tack again.  Perhaps this would give them more experience of how others are being neglected by governments such as elderly people that are along and trying to get some help to get about and could well do with someone to do maintenances such as decorating and other heavy jobs around their home such as gardening etc.   Also this would look well on their debtors CV's instead of having a break in their work record that would have to redress at any interview for new employment when the recession is over.


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## ajapale (24 Oct 2009)

I have split off a particular question. 


personal loan €15k, serious illness, bank threatening committal order

Please keep this thread for general discussion of "Jail threat for debt".

Thanks
aj


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## solair (28 Oct 2009)

This kind of thing will drive people to all sorts of dangerous situations i.e. I would not be at all surprised if it caused quite a few suicides.

Also, I would suspect that anyone in this situation might consider fleeing the country and abandoning the debt.

I wonder would you have an entitlement to apply for asylum on the basis that if you returned to Ireland you would be jailed for something that is not even a legal offense, rather it's a debt management issue.

This country is a COMPLETE joke!

Bale out the bankers, and jail people who can't pay a few quid.

Not to mention the fact that this is costing the state hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Euro per year, to enforce what are civil contracts.

It's really not up to the state to collect debts through the use of the threat imprisonment !!! 

No civil court should be jailing people, other than for serious contempt and that can normally be purged.

Also, given the risk analysis, or lack there of, done by creditors, it would seem to me that this stuff could be bordering on state-sponsored racketeering.

It seems that we are operating with almost completely unreformed Victorian British legislation in this area.


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## solair (28 Oct 2009)

What I do not understand is why this judgement hasn't stopped this idiotic practice: 

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-...n-debt-wins-high-court-challenge-1779217.html

Surely this has made such jailing illegal ?

I found more information here :

http://humanrightsinireland.wordpre...he-first-step-in-reshaping-our-prison-policy/

It seems that the Government rushed through emergency legislation after that case this year to ensure that people would continue to be jailed for non-payment of debts.

Fianna Fail are quite clearly very right wing!

Here's the disgraceful piece of draconian legislation : [broken link removed]


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## bond-007 (29 Oct 2009)

The difference is now that debtors are now entitled to free legal aid if faced with a committal. Also there are a raft of appeal measures available but sadly debtors don't know this.

The ENFORCEMENT OF COURT ORDERS (AMENDMENT) ACT 2009 could be just as easily challenged in the courts.


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## Iveagh1 (30 Oct 2009)

I just read VOR post with link to Irish Times Article and am now seriously worried - I have just decided due to reduced pay and now further reduced hours that I will have to approach my Credit Union to change the terms of my loan I will have to reduce repayments by about 150 per month, I have two years left on my loan and never had any problem the other three years - reading the Irish Times Article has made me wary - should I approach them, has anybody had experience of approaching their Credit Union to reduce payments - hopefully you are talking about non payment entirely.


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