# Community Welfare Office: violence and disrespect.



## lindsay72 (2 Dec 2011)

The shocking and ridiculous situation happened to me today. 

I needed to see a community welfare officer CWO in Limerick. 

The clinic hours are 10 to 11 on Thursdays. I arrived on 10.50., took a ticket, there were approximately 20 people before me. So I decided to get a coffee from the nearest shop, came back at 11.05. I know that they close the door at 11 o’clock, but as usual you just make your way in when somebody else is on their way out. 

So there I was at the door waiting, next thing a security guard opened the door to let somebody out. I asked politely, which number is being served at the moment, didn’t get the answer, just the question (asked rudely): What number are YOU? I said, number 22. The answer was: Clinic hours are 10 to 11, we are closed. I explained that I was here before 11, I got the ticket, and asked him if it was a new rule. He just shut the door in front of my face. 

I was shocked but waited. In a minute time he let another person out, I tried to enter the door, but he started pushing me away with his hands AND the door. Now, he was a big guy, as you can imagine, and I’m just a weak woman. So I started to shout at him to get his hands off me, and that doesn’t have a right to even touch me. But he proceeded, and threatened me with Garda. I was already crying. 

Then a CWO came over and asked what’s going on, I explained the situation. CWO asked the guard what time I came in, he said I came in before 11, but then left. So CWO decided to take the security guy side, and told me he was right, and I should come next Thursday. 

CWO then left, didn’t want to listen whatever I had to say. I decided I won’t leave anyway and stayed there. There were 4 people served after me, I mean number 23 to 26. I was denied service. I stayed there till the end, they just locked their offices and walked away. 

I cried for an hour after that. Just feeling like <mod snip> I’m sure they don’t have the right to behave like that. And I do regret I didn’t call Garda. There was violence involved. I have a bruise on my shoulder.

What do I do now? Any advice? I’m still in a shock...


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## niceoneted (2 Dec 2011)

I am sorry for the situation you found your self in. 
However they probably have to have strict rules about their opening hours. I understand that you were there before 11 and got your ticket but you then left to return after the closing time of 11. 
Did you mention to the security guy or anyone else that you were leaving just to get a coffee and would it be ok to return. The thing is if they are seen to let you back in (even though you were there before 11) others might start saying that they let someone in after 11 (as they may not have seen you before or understand the situation) and others will start coming after 11 demanding to be let in. 

I understand your frustration but I think you were wrong to try to enter the door. If it were me I would have left and returned again knowing not to make the same mistake again.


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## bacchus (2 Dec 2011)

lindsay72 said:


> ........I tried to enter the door, but he started pushing me away with his hands AND the door...



Always 2 sides to a story....Where you not trying to force your way in, and he was just preventing you from doing that?


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Dec 2011)

> There was violence involved. I have a bruise on my shoulder.





> I tried to enter the door,



While I have sympathy for you, the only violence in your story is from you trying to gain forcible entry. 

I don't know the system but I imagine from your desciption of it, they had opening hours of 10 -11, which people were abusing by coming in after the doors were closed. So they had to hire security guards to deal with people breaking the rules.


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## gipimann (2 Dec 2011)

The title of your post is "CWO violence and disrespect".

From your post, the altercation you describe was between you and a security guard.   You have not reported any violence on the part of the CWO.

You may wish to edit the title to more accurately reflect your post.


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## JoeB (2 Dec 2011)

I disagree. Violence can be verbal... and according to the OP the security guard was rude before she tried to force entry. That will certainly be against the CWO customer charter, and an apology should be forthcoming.

They don't appear to have a rule about entry, or at least in the past the rule was waived. (as per OP.) (And as such it is unreasonable to make such a significant change without informing the venerable people who may be heavily effected by such a change. For example, does the OP now have food and shelter for this week? And is non-observence of a rule, which previously wasn't applied, a good reason to deny someone potentially life saving help?

The woman (OP) was clearly upset, and was actually ignored by people whose job it is to help. Does no-one else think that that CWO may be unsuitable for the role?

If the OP went off and harmed herself.. what then? The CWO who walked past an upset and crying woman, and who refused to help, because of a silly rule and a mixup with a security guard,.. .. would have to take some of the blame.


When people come crawling to the State for help,.. the state should not refuse help on the grounds that the people have not presented themselves correctly.


edited to add: I can also see the other side... where rules should be applied.


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## NorfBank (2 Dec 2011)

lindsay72 said:


> There was violence involved. I have a bruise on my shoulder.
> What do I do now? Any advice? I’m still in a shock...


 
You've been assualted. 
It's up to you to get the matter investigated so you should report it to the Gardai immediately.
Any CCTV evidence, witnesses?


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Dec 2011)

NorfBank said:


> You've been assualted.



There is no evidence of this at all from what she says. She tried to force her way in through a door after the official hours and when told she could not come in by the security guard.

What is the point of having a security guard, if they are not allowed to prevent people from coming in?


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## T McGibney (2 Dec 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> I disagree. Violence can be verbal... and according to the OP the security guard was rude before she tried to force entry. That will certainly be against the CWO customer charter, and an apology should be forthcoming.
> 
> They don't appear to have a rule about entry, or at least in the past the rule was waived. (as per OP.) (And as such it is unreasonable to make such a significant change without informing the venerable people who may be heavily effected by such a change. For example, does the OP now have food and shelter for this week? And is non-observence of a rule, which previously wasn't applied, a good reason to deny someone potentially life saving help?
> 
> ...



Sorry this logic is crazy. Rudeness hardly amounts to violence.  I'm amazed that you can arrive at a judgment that the 'CWO may be unsuitable for the role', on the basis of the limited facts outlined. Any public office is well entitled to implement security procedures if deemed necessary for public safety and order. Nobody in the Revenue ever contacted me when they started putting security guards on their front doors.


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## NorfBank (2 Dec 2011)

Brendan Burgess said:


> There is no evidence of this at all from what she says. She tried to force her way in through a door after the official hours and when told she could not come in by the security guard.
> 
> What is the point of having a security guard, if they are not allowed to prevent people from coming in?


 
There is a difference between assault and battery.

_At_ Common Law, _an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact._

An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in either criminal or civil liability. Generally, the common law definition is the same in criminal and Tort Law. There is, however, an additional Criminal Law category of assault consisting of an attempted but unsuccessful Battery.

We can only speculate on what happened, the only proper advice the poster can be given is to call the Gardai and let them deal with it. 
We're not the judge and jury.


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## ajapale (2 Dec 2011)

lindsay72 said:


> Then a CWO came over and asked what’s going on, I explained the situation. CWO asked the guard what time I came in, he said I came in before 11, but then left. So CWO decided to take the security guy side, and told me he was right, and I should come next Thursday.



I cant see how the cw officer was in any way disrespectul in this case.

There might be a case for the cw office to review their policy with respect to alllowing people in after official closing time. Perhaps they should be more explicit in warning people that under no circumstances will readmittance occur after closing time.

Title edited and post broken into small paragraphs
CWO violence and disrespect to *Community Welfare Office: violence and disrespect.  *


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Dec 2011)

NorfBank said:


> There is a difference between assault and battery.
> 
> _At_ Common Law, _an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact._
> 
> ...



Hi NorfBank


> he was a big guy, as you can imagine, and I’m just a weak woman.


You might have some point if the security guard was a weak woman and a big guy tried to force his way into the office past her despite being told he was not allowed in. The security guard might consider herself assaulted. However, in this case I don't think that the security guard could justify making a complaint to the Gardai.


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## NorfBank (2 Dec 2011)

Let's put it this way Brendan:

Your sister/daughter/mother comes homes in tears sporting a bruise on her shoulder.

You ask her what happened - she relays the same story as the OP has.

Do you tell her 

a) serves you right - it looks like you assaulted the bouncer.
b) to report the incident to the Gardai and let them deal with it?


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## mark27 (2 Dec 2011)

NorfBank said:


> Let's put it this way Brendan:
> 
> Your sister/daughter/mother comes homes in tears sporting a bruise on her shoulder.
> 
> ...



A

The only way the security guard kept pushing her is because she kept coming at him ,serves her right


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Dec 2011)

Hi NorfBank

A - clearly.


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## STEINER (2 Dec 2011)

It seems reasonable to pop out to buy a coffee, but you were late coming back.  No excuse for rudeness or heavyhandedness from either side.  I know how infuriating it can be to be refused entry somewhere, when the CRO office was around Parnell Sq in Dublin, the porter closed the door in my face and denied me entry when I arrived bang on 4.29pm and he was closing door for 4.30pm.  Once at Clondalkin PO the porter there wouldn't let me in as I arrived just as he was closing door on a friday at 5.30pm, slammed door in my face.


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## eastbono (2 Dec 2011)

OP has also posted this event on a now closed thread at boards.ie

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056469545
                  [broken link removed]      > Biz       > Personal       > State Benefits >CWO violence 
                                                               snowwhite2011


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## truthseeker (2 Dec 2011)

If the clinic hours are 10-11 and the OP *needed* to see a CWO that day, why did she only arrive at 10.50, take a ticket and then leave immediately and come back after the door closing time?

If I needed to see a CWO and the hours were 10-11 Id be arriving at 9.50 in case there was a big queue, to ensure I actually got in there and got seen. If, for whatever reason, I only got there at 10.50, theres no way Id leave in case I did get stuck outside!

I dont think its fair to berate the office staff or try to push through the doors when the staff enforce the rules. I agree it wasnt a very nice experience for the OP but a small bit of common sense would have prevented the entire debacle.


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## DB74 (2 Dec 2011)

I want to know why the OP needed to see a CWO if she can afford a cup of coffee!


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## pudds (2 Dec 2011)

Well if I were seeing the CWO and......



> The clinic hours are 10 to 11 on Thursdays. I arrived on 10.50.,




the last thing I would be thinking of doing is leaving the building no matter how many were waiting, never mind going for a coffee.


Sorry OP but its hard to have any sympathy for you going on what you have posted.


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## beffers (6 Dec 2011)

truthseeker said:


> I dont think its fair to berate the office staff or try to push through the doors when the staff enforce the rules. I agree it wasnt a very nice experience for the OP but a small bit of common sense would have prevented the entire debacle.



Yep. OP was trying to break a rule and wasn't let. Too bad ! 

SW offices have signs at the door stating specifically that there will be no re admittance to the building if you leave 10 mins before the official closing time. Obviously this extends to trying to get back in after they have closed. This fact is also printed on the tickets that you take to get to see someone. If OP chose to ignore that information, too bad.

I have seen SW staff being verbally and physically abused in SW offices by the people that they are trying to assist. The security staff hired to protect the staff and the building are probably people who take no guff and stand their ground. They have to be. If you choose to confront them and don't like the consequences, again too bad. If security went too far during the altercation, it will be captured on the CCTV cameras that are mounted in all SW office doorways. Call the Gardai and have them deal with it.


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## ajapale (6 Dec 2011)

Hi Beffers,

Do the CW Offices operate the same policies and procedures as the Social Welfare Offices?

aj


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## Slim (6 Dec 2011)

ajapale said:


> Hi Beffers,
> 
> Do the CW Offices operate the same policies and procedures as the Social Welfare Offices?
> 
> aj


 
CWOs were, until recently, HSE staff and are now DSP staff. It would be fair to assume they are operating the clinics under the HSE policies until the transition has been fully completed.


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## beffers (6 Dec 2011)

The ticketing system is the same in both. The no re admittance note is on all tickets.


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