# Accessing Pension



## Tightfist (15 Jul 2014)

Hello, 

Has anyone heard of European Pensions? What do you think?

I would like access some of my pension, and would appreciate help.

Thank you


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## Tightfist (17 Jul 2014)

*No information*

Hi, 

It is worrying that nobody has heard of this set up. They seem to specialise in transferring pensions to other EU countries. 

Maybe I should ask: how do people feel about transferring their pension to Portugal and in the process accessing some of the pot?

Cheers,


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## Conan (17 Jul 2014)

I would be cautious about transferring funds to an overseas location and a provider that has no connection to Ireland. The overseas manager is not subject to Irish regulation, your level of financial protection may be questionable etc etc. 
Yes, you may be able to access some of the funds earlier that under Irish legislation but the costs involved in establishing in structure can be expensive.

Apart from all that, under Irish Revenue rules transferring pension fund assets to an overseas arrangement (when you are remaining in Ireland) is not that easy. If you are talking about an Occupational Pension, the Revenue require confirmation that the transfer is "bona fide". 

I can see the attraction for some people, but I would caution transferring any funds to some unknown location and unknown provider without ensuring that all aspects are compliant with Irish regulations. Also I know that the costs can be high.

Tread carefully.


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## ashambles (17 Jul 2014)

[broken link removed]

It seems that Revenue don't block the transfer or determine the bona fides, they get the pension company to do it. 


> the Revenue Commissioners (the “Revenue”) who said that it was for Canada Life to determine whether to accede to the request, having regard to the Transfer Regulations and, in particular, the requirement that the transfer be for bona fides reasons.


Even if the pension company are inclined to allow the transfer they'll worry that they're breaching regulations and are in line for trouble. This is the effective Revenue practice of getting others to their work for them.

I assume EU rules prohibit Revenue from explicitly restricting freedom of movement which is probably why Revenue won't come out and say what they consider is bona fide or not.

I'd also assume that since the case was against Canada Life it's a lot less useful than had it been Revenue, despite this decision a pension company might decide it's still better to only allow a pension transfer after a court case as they know few will bother going to those lengths.


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## Tightfist (17 Jul 2014)

Thank you Conan and ashambles. I think this is risky, but I wanted to know other opinions on the matter. The temptation of having access to 30% of the pot may get the best of people.


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## Slim (18 Jul 2014)

My friend has retired to Portugal and is now officially 'resident' there. His private pension will be tax free there but there is a three year clawback by Revenue. I don't think he is moving his pension fund to Portugal though.


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## elacsaplau (17 Feb 2015)

Following on from Slim's post above, does anyone know the rules in relation to retiring in Portugal. Specifically, if you are a "new" resident there:
- is pension income tax-free?
- does it matter what sort of pension it is (occupational, annuity from self-employment, state pension, deductions from ARF, etc?)


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## Steven Barrett (17 Feb 2015)

Canada Life lost that case. The Court said that moving to another country because you liked the funds available there, you could do it. As long as there was no intention to do a tax dodge i.e. don't tell the advisor or don't put anything about tax in writing. 

Should you do it? I would advise against it. The Revenue are on the look out for this and will wind it back as soon as they get the opportunity. Will you want a large tax bill in the future? Because you run the risk of getting one. 

Also, these things aren't cheap. You have to be crystal clear on what they charges are before you do it. 

Finally, do you want to be managing a pension in Malta or wherever for the rest of your life? 

Most decent advisors wouldn't touch these with a bargepole but I know an ex director of Custom House Capital promotes them. 

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Slim (17 Feb 2015)

elacsaplau said:


> Following on from Slim's post above, does anyone know the rules in relation to retiring in Portugal. Specifically, if you are a "new" resident there:
> - is pension income tax-free?
> - does it matter what sort of pension it is (occupational, annuity from self-employment, state pension, deductions from ARF, etc?)


 My friend's pension will be tax free for 10 years. That includes the 3 yr claw back by Revenue. He is a Portuguese resident now. Only applies to non state or public sector pensions AFAIK. Pretty sure he has not moved any funds away from Ireland.


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## elacsaplau (17 Feb 2015)

Thanks for your replies.

Slim - can you elaborate on what the 3 yr claw-back means precisely please?

SBarrett - Steven, firstly my question specifically relates to Portugal. Do you know the relevant rules in relation to my query earlier and if so, what are they? If you do not, I believe that any advice you give to your clients may be incomplete as you may be closing off an attractive option to some people simply because it's outside your area of expertise?! In other words, can you please explain the precise legal or taxation reason for your comments? What specific risks is somebody in receipt of an occupational pension who decides to reside in Portugal facing?


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## Gerry Canning (17 Feb 2015)

elacsaplau said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> Slim - can you elaborate on what the 3 yr claw-back means precisely please?
> 
> SBarrett - Steven, firstly my question specifically relates to Portugal. Do you know the relevant rules in relation to my query earlier and if so, what are they? If you do not, I believe that any advice you give to your clients may be incomplete as you may be closing off an attractive option to some people simply because it's outside your area of expertise?! In other words, can you please explain the precise legal or taxation reason for your comments? What specific risks is somebody in receipt of an occupational pension who decides to reside in Portugal facing?


...............
I do not think the advice SBarrett freely gives is in any way meant to be definitive.
He correctly advises caution.
What is very true is that Revenue are casting their baleful eye over  Pension Pot transfers
out of Ireland.
I am definitely not an expert and if you want expert advice ,put your case to Revenue?
On Slims 3 year claw back , I take that to mean Revenue can unwind a deal they feel is not 100% kosher.


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## Steven Barrett (17 Feb 2015)

elacsaplau said:


> SBarrett - Steven, firstly my question specifically relates to Portugal. Do you know the relevant rules in relation to my query earlier and if so, what are they? If you do not, I believe that any advice you give to your clients may be incomplete as you may be closing off an attractive option to some people simply because it's outside your area of expertise?! In other words, can you please explain the precise legal or taxation reason for your comments? What specific risks is somebody in receipt of an occupational pension who decides to reside in Portugal facing?



Is someone is moving to Portugal and become a resident there, they are eligible to avail of rules brought in by the Portuguese government that allows them to draw down their pension tax free. I am aware that there is a tax saving scheme there but I do not know the specific criteria as I am not a tax advisor. If people want tax advice, I get them to talk to a qualified tax advisor. 

In all my years of advising people, no one has ever told me that they wanted to move country to reduce their tax liability, so I don't think any of my clients are unnecessarily paying too much tax by living in Ireland. 

If people wish to remain in Ireland but transfer their pension to another country to avail of tax savings, there are some people who will assist in it but it is not something that I will do. It is sailing a bit too close to the wind for me. 

Steven 
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## elacsaplau (17 Feb 2015)

elacsaplau said:


> Following on from Slim's post above, does anyone know the rules in relation to retiring in Portugal. Specifically, if you are a "new" resident there:
> - is pension income tax-free?
> - does it matter what sort of pension it is (occupational, annuity from self-employment, state pension, deductions from ARF, etc?)



Any tax gurus out there to answer the above?


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## Slim (18 Feb 2015)

elacsaplau said:


> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> Slim - can you elaborate on what the 3 yr claw-back means precisely please?


 
When my friend got his Portuguese Residency through, he discovered that Revenue could still take tax off him for 3 years after he became a Portuguese resident. Again, I do not belive he has transported his pension funds out of Ireland, but I'm not au fait with his personal transactions.

BTW, I think you're coming across as a bit rude in your comments to SBarrett, who has provided very informed commentary here for some time.


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## ashambles (25 Feb 2015)

According to the Sunday Times there's a court case coming up sometime in March where an AIB employee is challenge Revenue's refusal to allow her to transfer a pension to Malta(?)

Depending on income or other pensions, the cost for some people may not be a factor, say you've 200k maybe you might be prepared to drop 50k to access all of it quickly. 150k now versus an annuity and restricted access.

I think the article was hinting there were other AIB employees who want to do the same, possibly this is a DC pension on top of their own DB pensions.


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