# PTSB - Disc Tracker Mortgage - Rate Options Letter



## PFS7979 (25 Oct 2017)

Hi,

I recently reviewed historic correspondence from PTSB in respect of my mortgage. The relevant Special Condition on the Letter of Approval from mid 08 stated:

"On expiry of the of the 12 month discount period the then prevailing PTSB rate will apply".

11 months later a letter was received stating: "the current rate option on your mortgage is due to expire.."
the letter included a whole host of rate options including fixed rates, SVR and a tracker with 3.25% margin. The tracker was about 0.6% higher than the SVR and I (stupidly) went with the lower SVR. In good faith, I took it that a rate option had indeed expired.

Quite aside from the ethics/cpc issues associated with this ramped up Tracker Rate in 09 relative to what the prevailing tracker rate was in mid 08... the big issue in my eyes is the wording of the rate options letter when it stated "your current rate option is due to expire".

Quite simply, on the original contract it never stated anything about rate options. It stated the then prevailing tracker rate will apply on expiry of the 12 month discount.

I am of a firm belief that this options letter and the language used was a deliberate attempt to move people off tracker rates. I have highlighted the issue in writing with FSO and Central Bank. Interested if others have the same wording on the special condition and thereafter on the "options letter". I really feel if this happened to others it needs to be raised.


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## Monbretia (25 Oct 2017)

But if they wrote to you 11 months into a 12 month discount with options it was because your discount rate option was about to expire was it not?


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## PFS7979 (25 Oct 2017)

No. The treatment of the interest rate was specifically spelt out on the original contract. To repeat the wording: "on expiry of the discounted period, the then prevailing PTSB tracker rate WILL APPLY". I highlighted the words "will apply" because its a statement of what will happen to the rate.

Where is reference to "options" on the contract?


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## Monbretia (25 Oct 2017)

Yes I get that, that's the rate that will apply if you don't do anything or want anything else but they gave you other options in case you wanted one of those, not uncommon for people to want to see what fixed or other options are available.   Totally normal practice in my experience, you could have done nothing and it would have gone to the rate specified.

If they didn't show you other options and let's say rates had gone sky high then there would be complaints that the fixed options weren't offered, you got the option but hindsight has shown it to be the wrong decision like lots of decisions we make in life!


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## PFS7979 (25 Oct 2017)

Its very simple Monbretia. The governing clause on interest rate is spelt out on the relevant condition of the letter of offer. 

To clarify for your benefit, I agree that a Borrower may wish to examine alternative rate options. But, very importantly this rate options letter contained a factually incorrect statement when it stated: "your current rate option will expire".

So I dont know what point you are trying to make other than attempting to rationalise and justify PTSB's position and the nature/content of their communications at that time. It would appear to me based on recent developments and based on the CPC that where doubt exists, the spirit of regulation lies in favour of the consumer.


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## lukas888 (25 Oct 2017)

While i can sense your frustration there is no point in castigating Monbretia who is only offering you her interpretation of the situation.
For what its worth i tend to agree with Monbretias assessment based on the scant information available.I know that is not what you are hoping 
to hear.I wish you the best and hope that my reading of your situation is incorrect.


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## PFS7979 (25 Oct 2017)

Hi Lucas,

With respect, I pointed out conflicting language and misleading statements on correspondence issued by PTSB. In response Manbrieta referred to the mistake I made on the rate selection on options letter. I myself referred to my "stupid" decision on the rate "option" I selected.

My response to Mabrieta is a further attempt to illustrate the conflicting and misleading language/correspondence used by PTSB. If it came across as castigating her then I unreservedly apologise.

Thank you for your opinion. I have the benefit of the relevant correspondence in front of me and the opinions of several professionals in legal and financial areas. My message on this forum was to share information with others effected rather than seeking affirmation/support etc.


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## Stitcher (25 Oct 2017)

Montbretia, 
I totally agree with PFS, I am in the same boat. I did not take out a 1 year tracker, who would??? Did anyone see 1 year tracker mortgages advertised??  No. One year fixed mortgages, yes but 1 year Trackers ? No. Discounted Trackers, yes, but 1 year Trackers, No. 
The term 1 year discounted tracker is a blatant abuse of terminology if it meant a 1 year tracker.

I took out a Tracker that was discounted for a year and expected it to revert to the undiscounted rate after that. I thought in my naivety that was what I signed up for, and what my mortgage advisor at Ptsb confirmed was:  their 0.8% Tracker, which she said "has been discounted for a year" her words not mine.  If she said "I have a one year tracker" would you like that? I'd have said a big fat NO. 

The Options letter was a major shock for me too and I too moved to the lower SVR which was offered to reduce the repayments on my big mortgage.  But, as PFS say,  I should NOT have been offered ANY options as I had signed up for a Tracker for the life of the mortgage!  

PTSB changed what a tracker mortgage was around Dec 2007 because they knew EXACTLY  what was coming down the track. You and I, unfortunately, did not. They did not tell us that they were fundamentally changing what a tracker mortgage was. If they did, I would not have left a 1% Tracker to take their 0.8% tracker (small t) (discounted for a year and not explained that this was a  gimmick product because we are in deep trouble) which was designed to get punters in at all costs, then hit them with unexplained special conditions later on that legally favour PTSB.


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## PFS7979 (25 Oct 2017)

Stitcher,

I think you have summed up my feelings on this very well also. I certainly dont wish to get into a debate with other contributors or make them feel i am castigating them... 

As it stands PTSB are fighting their corner on the treatment of our accounts. I Feel satisfied that PTSB are not on firm ground in defending their position and note the Central Bank comments that many more are "effected" than the Banks are admitting at this stage.


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## Delidisco (26 Oct 2017)

Hi PFS7979,
I am in the same boat...
Ptsb mortgage.. Offers letter received in May 2009 with a month left of my first year fixed. My contract also stated that on expiry of that first year fixed the rate applicable would be the then prevailing tracker rate. 
I've read through all these threads for the past week and your predicament is identical to mine.
I too greatly regret my decision. 
On a svr since and have no disposable income to speak of as a result.
Ptsb knew fine well what they were doing.
At the time I arranged a meeting in my local branch and I was very poorly informed and sent on my way.
That options letter has haunted me for years..


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## PFS7979 (26 Oct 2017)

Delidisco,

I believe you received an options letter with the wording "your current rate option will shortly expire".... if so, i believe you should write to PTSB and ask why they used this statement and why they even issued an options letter. In fact there never was a rate option on the original contract wording.


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## DonnaM (26 Oct 2017)

Hi guys 
We are in the exact same situation... Bought in April 2008 and options letter sent in march 2009 after receiving a 100% mortgage what a nightmare....I live in horror of that options letter all the time.. Have any of you contacted PKissane?? WE haev had a case with him since May 2015... I will hopefully be talking to him this afternoon I hope and will try and get more information I really thought we would be hearing good news this week..


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## joe351980 (26 Oct 2017)

Anyone on a discount tracker and offered an inflated rate on expiry of same, should ask the simple question. 

From what prevailing rate was the discount from?

I think wording it this way, and demanding a figure, i.e. not just the future non existent rate, would make things alot clearer.
I would be writing to PTSB and demanding to know how the calculated this. Ask one simple question and nothing else. They would have to have had some way of calculating.


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## PFS7979 (26 Oct 2017)

Donna,

Did your original Letter of Approval and relevant condition state anything about rate options? Did it state that after the "discount period"  "the then current PTSB tracker rate would apply".

Why then did you receive an options letter?

Why did the Options letter state "your current rate option will end on x/x/xx"?

PTSB have had a chance to acknowledge they mis handled our accounts but are standing firm. We now rely on Central Bank to direct PTSB to address our accounts....


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## joe351980 (26 Oct 2017)

Prevailing means in existence at that time. Taking anything other than the margin at time of contract would contradict the initial offer. 
The only margin that was guaranteed to be prevailing was this.
 So to say that this wasn't a prevailing, current, applicable or any other term is misleading at least.
No matter what way you look at it, the tracker margins on offer at time of contract is the only one relevant to your mortgage.


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## DonnaM (8 Nov 2017)

Hi PFS
My original letter states On expiry of discount period, the interest rate will be the then current permanent tsb tracker mortgage rate - nothing about an options letter... Then we received the options letter on the 16th of April 2009.  
PTSB need to acknowledge this.. hopefully CB will highlight this ASAP!


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## PFS7979 (8 Nov 2017)

Hi DonnaM,

So your contract wording was silent about rate options. Yet you received an "options letter" stating your current rate option had expired.

I believe this borders on criminal misleading of customers. I urge you to highlight your issue in writing to PTSB, engage with ombudsman thereafter. I would ask you to also write to the Central Bank highlighting the matter as PTSB have had the chance to volunteer that our accounts are effected.. but are holding firm.. We are therefore relying on the Central Bank's Assurance process identifying our accounts as being effected.


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## Stitcher (8 Nov 2017)

Hi Donna and PFS,
 I believe that the fact that Ptsb has admitted an error in Deck77's case, who had the same discounted tracker as us, bodes well for us.  He did not choose the SVR at the time like us but settled for the higher rate Tracker. By admitting an Error in his case and moving him back onto the undiscounted rate, means it should only be a matter of time until PTSB acknowledge that we too should have moved onto the undiscounted rate after the discount period.  We are not in the first tranche of Impacted customers but am very hopeful that we will be in the next one, hopefully announced at Christmas or at least by June next year.  Our cases are with the central bank review and I think that if CB instructed ptsb to correct Deck77's case then it has to do the same for us.  We should have rolled onto the undiscounted rate and not been sent an options letter.


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## verywhys (18 Jun 2019)

Does anyone by any chance have a copy of a PTSB mortgage options letter?


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## PFS7979 (23 Jun 2019)

Yes... around about what date?


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## verywhys (23 Jun 2019)

PFS7979 said:


> Yes... around about what date?


Do you have one 2008 or earlier?


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## PFS7979 (24 Jun 2019)

verywhys said:


> Do you have one 2008 or earlier?


2009.....


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## verywhys (25 Jun 2019)

PFS7979 said:


> 2009.....


Got sorted with 2009.....thanks


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## PFS7979 (26 Jun 2019)

verywhys said:


> Got sorted with 2009.....thanks


Note the wording is inconsistent in many cases with the terms of the Letter of Offer


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