# home heating options.... please save me !



## kemosabe (19 Feb 2009)

Hi everyone,
Long time reader first time poster. 

Can anyone help me?

I am at the very early stages of a self build on a 2,500 square foot house and am at the end of my sanity in trying to decide on the best method to heat my house. I know there is no easy answer and every system has its pros and cons but any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have decided to go with a high spec insulation & solar panels for heating the water but I cant decide on the heating. Geo thermal, gas are not options & I have decided against wood pellet boilers. 

Basically what I am considering is an air to water heat pump with underfloor heating & aluminium rads upstairs Vs wood log burner with back boiler to heat rads wit a condensing oil burner as back up . any suggestions ?

Ideally I would like to minimise the use of oil if possible but I have heard conflicting stories of the air to water heat pumps. Some say it is an excellent alternative to oil whilst others say the electricity bills are massive.

Sorry for rambling on so long.

Any advise is much appreciated.

Thanks


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## DavyJones (19 Feb 2009)

kemosabe said:


> wood log burner with back boiler to heat rads wit a condensing oil burner as back up .




This is how I would do it.


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## dinjoecurry (20 Feb 2009)

why is geo thermal not an option?


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## dj01 (20 Feb 2009)

build to the highest insulation standard you can afford - any means of heat will be more expensive the lower the level you build and insulate to so this should always be your first priority. 

As for heating, imo i would look at some type of stove with back boiler and then a gas condesnsing boiler as a backup. Geothermal is reliant on electricty, so you heating bill will always be set by electricity costs. 

Keep it simple and as self sufficient as possible


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## kemosabe (21 Feb 2009)

thanks for input, much appreciated. Dinjo geo thermal is not really an option for me due to the space required to lay the pipes. i know there is a way of drilling down to achieve the same thing but how expensive is this ?

Thanks dj01 but can I use a gas condensing boiler when i am not on the gas mains ? is there much of a difference between the gas condensing boiler & the oil one ?

Do you mind me asking you Davyjones why you would go this way ? in additon do you know much about wood log burners ? for example would a huge amount of fuel & time be required to get enough heat to heat the radiators?


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## DavyJones (23 Feb 2009)

Depends on how system is designed and how many rads are on it.

I would go for one because they are cheap to install and cheap to run. You will be surprised by the amout of free fuel you come across when you are looking.


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## dinjoecurry (24 Feb 2009)

KEMOSABE  I got geothermal and the house is a standard type of detached small enough drive (about 3 cars long) to drill the hole and put in the pipes and pump was €8.000 the system is great I live in an area where the bedrock is granite so I don't know wheather that made the drilling more expensive or not


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## kemosabe (24 Feb 2009)

Once again lads thanks for the input,
Can I ask you DJ would their be any benefit in terms of cost & heating output in opting for a wood burner over a solid fuel burner or are they pretty much the same thing ? also and I will try to make this my last question for you on the matter, I am hoping to heat about 6-10 rads from this system. Would the heat needed for this make the room with the stove in it unbearably hot ?
Dinjo that sounds like a bargain & when I hear positive stories like that it really tempts me to go down the geo route but something in me is not fully convinced yet. Maybe Im being too careful but I worry about depending on electricity for all my heating costs & there is not enough long term data in this country on these systems in terms of product durability, service & costs. Having said that Im still not sure. . . Im confused.


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## DavyJones (24 Feb 2009)

kemosabe said:


> Can I ask you DJ would their be any benefit in terms of cost & heating output in opting for a wood burner over a solid fuel burner or are they pretty much the same thing ? also and I will try to make this my last question for you on the matter, I am hoping to heat about 6-10 rads from this system. Would the heat needed for this make the room with the stove in it unbearably hot ?
> .



They are the same thing. You want to be able to burn what you like in them.
Depends on the size of the room the stove is in, it will get quite cosy.  

6-10 rads is a nice size for a stove to manage. Again, system design is important.


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## rebelgirl09 (25 Feb 2009)

When we built our house we installed a wood pellet boiler along with solar tubes on the roof.  I was initially cautious of the  pellet boiler but my husband talked me around and now I must admit I am an avid fan!!!  I find the system excellent and the cost very managable and we are also doing our bit for the environment and increasing our house's energy rating.

Since then I have converted my mother and two friends to the wood pellet boiler and they are both extremely with the systems also.

Good luck with your choices.....


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## kemosabe (25 Feb 2009)

Cheers RebelGirl,
Do you mind me asking what boiler you are using & if you have a large specialised storing unit for the pellets ?
Am meeting with an Energy Assessor who has agreed to go through the various heating systems & how they would fit with our build. Was getting lost in all the info.


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## Optimistic (25 Feb 2009)

Like rebelgirl we also used a pellet boiler, a windhager and are storing the pellets in an overhead self build storage tank with gravity feed. We are delighted with the system. 

Not at all happy with the flat plate solar panels we installed at the same time. They will never pay for themselves, well at least ours won't anyway.
all the best, optimistic



kemosabe said:


> Cheers RebelGirl,
> Do you mind me asking what boiler you are using & if you have a large specialised storing unit for the pellets ?
> Am meeting with an Energy Assessor who has agreed to go through the various heating systems & how they would fit with our build. Was getting lost in all the info.


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## rebelgirl09 (26 Feb 2009)

Hi Kemosable

The wood pellet boiler that we are using is called a Kedco boiler and we have bulk storage in the form of a silo, to which the pellets are delivered to in the form of three tonne per delivery.

The company is based in Cork and Dublin, www.kedco.com, but they service the whole country.  I found them very easy to use, exceptionally helpful and offer a great back up service, well worth a visit!

We got both our solar and boiler from them and touch wood, pardon the poun, we have had no major problems or set backs with them and the products are of very good quality.  I am now considering installing one of their pellet stoves also.  They also can also service your boiler on an annual basis also, very helpful I found - like a one stop shop!

Defo visit their website, great info on products/services and their staff are very knowledgable and helpful.

Good luck with your search and if you need anymore info just shout....


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## shoestring (27 Feb 2009)

Self built a house, we installed a dimplex air to heat pump. It's hard to recommend due to the extortionate cost of electrictiy in this country but over two years it has still worked out cheaper than oil. Spend a lot on insulation, we insulated with top of the range hemp insulation and then used 50mm insulation in our plasterboard, contradiction? who cares it keeps the heat in. By far the best and simplest method was the windows on the 'sun in the day' facing aspect of the build, we have three massive windows and in the evening if there has been sun, the heat built up in the room is fantastic. Consider your windows in the room you will use most?? Mad, i don't know but if you have to change them it'll be worth the €34 and 8 weeks for a planning application early in the build??


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## kemosabe (1 Mar 2009)

shoestring, Would you mind responding to a couple of queries re your heat pump ? I met with a builder who I know is very reputable & has expertise in home heating & he strongly recommends the air to water heat pump.

Do you mind me asking; how big is your house in sq foot ? Do you have underfloor heating upstairs & downstairs ? What is the breakdown of your heating costs for the two years ? How have you found the system to use ? Does it take long for the house to warm up when you switch it on ?
If you could go back knowing what you do know would you keep your present system or revert to oil etc

Any information you have would be greatly appreciated ?


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## olddog (2 Mar 2009)

kemosabe said:


> ............... I met with a builder who I know is very reputable & has expertise in home heating & he strongly recommends the air to water heat pump...................



Be aware that the efficiency ( COP figure ) of air to water and air to air heat pumps decreases as the external temperature decreases.

Due to this you might want to either over spec the size of the heat pump or allow for a second form of heating which could be used to top up the heat from your heat pump in very cold weather.

Will you be putting in a controlled ventilation system with heat recovery ? If so, have you considered using the duct system for heating. IIRC both Daiken and Mitsubishi offer MHRV units that integrate into their indoor duct heating units. ( This, of course, is only applicable to their air to air heat pumps.)

Olddog


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## kemosabe (2 Mar 2009)

Thanks for the heads up Oldog re the COP figure & I will def bear this in mind. I have not made my mind up yet re which heating system to go for. I had nearly decided on oil & rads with a wood stove boiler as back up but then a number of people strongly recommended the air to water pumps with underfloor heating ! I am just trying to get some real life data on the running costs of such a system which is proving very tricky ? We were considering a heat recovery system budget depending. Any suggestions re a suitable back up system to compliment the air to water system ?


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## shoestring (4 Mar 2009)

Its an 8kw Dimplex WPM2004. I think they are also available in 12kw. Our house is around 2400m2. We use underfloor heating downstairs and radiators upstairs and at the moment we are only heating roughly half the house. Try and put the storage tanks in your house (not in a garage etc.) even though they are bulky for max heat retention. One thing I would love to get in the future however is solar panels to heat water as we have to leave the pump on to heat out water during the summer. We are living in the house 2.5 years now and on average our ESB bills have been €1800-1900 per annum. That is all our heating, all our hot water and all our electricity with ESB thinking of moving and saving 10%. Bear in mind we have a solid fuel stove, an open fire and a readyful supply of turf! Finally, if you haven't built yet spend as much as you can on insulation, you CANT insulate enough..Hope this is of help


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## kemosabe (5 Mar 2009)

Ta for the response shoestring. Could not agree more re the insulation & fully intend to insulate with every spare penny I have. Your bills seem very reasonable although there is no doubt your other heating systems are keeping them down. At this stage Im leaning towards condensing oil burner, rads & stove boiler as back up with solar tubes for hot water. Will future proof system to allow for wood pellet boiler to replace oil if necessary. Just dont think wood pellets are quite there yet but will be soon. Having said that Im meeting with some people who have heat pumps in their homes & wii certainly listen to what they have to say.


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## corkgal (5 Mar 2009)

I don't really get the heat pump type heaters. If gas/oil is quarter the price of day time electricity and the heat pump turns one unit of electricity into 4 times as much heat, are you not as well off with Gas/Oil?
And that would be the heat pump operating at 100% whcih they may not do in the Irish climate.
I can see the environmental gains but not the cost savings?


SEI costs per type of fuel
[broken link removed]

Heat pumps
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

If you have the option of natural gas, go for that as your back up at least. Its the cheapest and easiest overall.
Maybe a wood burner to heat the main living area and some water?


I'd second the insulation, better to go with a super insulated house and a well regulated normal heating system than a state of the art heating system for heating the back yard!!


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## shoestring (5 Mar 2009)

I suppose at the time in 2004 other than the environmental reasons, we were thinking we would rather be at the mercy of the ESB than the price of oil on a stock market, some would say that was a mistake I suppose, others wouldn't. The other benefits are not running out of fuel and never having to worry about topping up...


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## kemosabe (6 Mar 2009)

I dont see how it was a mistake as clearly it works for you & who knows what way oil is going to go in terms of supply or cost ! I def think the future is renewables & heat pumps but Im still to be convinced that the current heat pump systems are worth the massive initial cost. having said that it would be fairly easy for you to up grade. shoestring do you mind me asking how responsive is the system ? For example if you decide you want a quick blast of heat is this possible ? When the temp hits below zero how effective is it ? How much do you have it on every day ?


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## olddog (6 Mar 2009)

_....I don't really get the heat pump type heaters......_

1. Heat pump produces generally 3 - 4 times the amount of heat energy than it consumes That means a kWhr of heat cost around 5c during the daytime.

2. Night rate electricity is about half the price of day rate so a kWhr of heat at night is circa 2.5c ( which is quite a good price )

If you have underfloor heating the thermal inertia of the floor is very high this means that if you heat the floors at night they will be warm during the day

At least that is the idea of it as I understand it


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## corkgal (6 Mar 2009)

I get the idea and can see why its good environmentally but if you are looking to save money it sounds like there is little ot no saving to me (over oil/gas), I think it could cost more?. 

So the saving is based on heating the house all night and it retaining the heat during the day?
I can't see how this suits people who are not in the house during the day.
Is the house not far too warm during the night?
Might be good for office/commercial appliccations but less so for domestic?

The heat is mostly on during the day when the rates are high. For the 5 cents you pay during the day you could get the same heating from oil/gas. Day rates for electricity are higher than normal (slightly)  if you have night saver installed.


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## olddog (9 Mar 2009)

corkgal said:


> ..............................I can't see how this suits people who are not in the house during the day.
> Is the house not far too warm during the night?...........................




FWIW I agree with you. Nevertheless many people seem to be happy to live in houses with this sort of heating arrangement. 

It probably comes down to having a house with very low heat loss and managed ventilation


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## kemosabe (9 Mar 2009)

Is that really how it operates ? I mean is it not possible to regulate the heating system so you have the heat on for when you actually want it ? That seems very strange. each Zone has its own thermostat & I thought most individual rooms were zoned ?


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## corkgal (9 Mar 2009)

You can probably have the heat on when you want, but it will just use the standard rate electricity. To make savings over gas/oil you would need to run the system off nightsaver. (Gas/oil is 4 times cheaper per KWh than standard rate electricity, heat pump uses 1 kwh of electricty to generate 4 kwh at max efficiency))

There are two ways to run these systems: 
1. Instant heat = the electricity rate that applies at the time = same price as Gas/Oil. This is how normal gas/oil central heating works.
2. Using house, floors as storage heater, uses nightsaver electricity but heat is on all night and during the day, you may want heat on in the evenings only (if you are out working). Potentially half the price of Oil/gas but may not suit you lifestyle.


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## kemosabe (9 Mar 2009)

sorry for being thick here corkgal but would it not be more efficient to have the heat on very low temp when you not in the house & then to increase temp before you come home in the evenings for a couple of hours ?


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## corkgal (11 Mar 2009)

If you boost it during the day time then its full price electricity, so your cost saving is gone.
It should make it more comfortable though.


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## DavyJones (11 Mar 2009)

corkgal said:


> I get the idea and can see why its good environmentally but if you are looking to save money it sounds like there is little ot no saving to me (over oil/gas), I think it could cost more?.




It is much less enviromentally friendly than you would be lead to belive.

There are 13 power stations in Ireland and 7 of these burn fossil fuel to create energy. Not bad, just over half, sadly these 7 stations create about 85% of the country's power. Leaving the 6 hydro stations pick up the last 15%.

Least not forget, these 7 stations are no more than 45% efficient, so of the energy created only that percentage is harnessed.

People pick geothermal for lots of reasons, Don't let the enviroment be one of them. It is simply untrue.

Until we get the majority of our power from a renewable source geo will harm the enviroment more so than a condensing oil/gas/wood pellet boiler.

It is also expensive to install and run. I would not fit it in my new home.


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## kemosabe (12 Mar 2009)

Playing devils advocate here but I suppose you could always signup to airtricity who claim 79% of thier energy is from renewable sources ?
Does an air to water heat pump not compete reasonably with any other underfloor heat system to install ? 
With regards to the cost of running air to water heat pumps whilst it is difficult to get exact data, a poster on another thread estimates it will cost him 2000 euro for all his heat, hot water & electricity for the last year in a 2900 sq foot house (including the cold snap at christmas). It is hard to see how any system would cost much less than that ? Thats not even taking into account future oil & gas reserves/prices. I was always more in favour of traditional heating systems but its certainly food for thought ?


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## dj01 (12 Mar 2009)

Just to backup kemosabe's statement, that other poster is me. You can't compare running costs of a heat pump to oil/gas directly on a like for like basis, as they work on different principles. An oil/gas system is primarily used as an on/off system for selected durations. A heat pump by comparison runs all the time (although can be set to not run at a given outdoor temp).

In my case, the years running cost is constant heating. The oil/gas alternative for the same running period would be considerably higher, so does provide cost savings.


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## DavyJones (12 Mar 2009)

dj01 said:


> Just to backup kemosabe's statement, that other poster is me. You can't compare running costs of a heat pump to oil/gas directly on a like for like basis, as they work on different principles. An oil/gas system is primarily used as an on/off system for selected durations. A heat pump by comparison runs all the time (although can be set to not run at a given outdoor temp).
> 
> In my case, the years running cost is constant heating. The oil/gas alternative for the same running period would be considerably higher, so does provide cost savings.



Valid points, but our weather does not support such a heating system. If you needed to run your heating constantly from oct through to april, than maybe I would consider fitting it.
We could get a cold snap in august, and as you know switching your heating on for an hour is not an option.

Could you please answer these questions for me, 

How big is house and how much did it cost to have geo and UFH fitted?
thanks.


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## kemosabe (12 Mar 2009)

As I understand it (& maybe dj01 can verify this), the system could cope very well with a cold snap in August. Say for example the weather has been ok & no need for central heating & then as you say you get a cold snap of 4-5 days. Well as it has been explained to me during the warm period you would have had the heat pump running at minimal just to keep the water in the buffer tank at a pre set minimum temp then when the cold snap hits the system can be boosted (manually or automatically) to produce adequate heat for as long as necessary then you can return to running at minimal. During these warm periods you can run the system for however long you require at night time availing of night rate electricity & you can `call` the heat as required.
Yes you may have the system on more often but the cost of that is off set against the on off function of other heating methods & as we all know it requires far more energy to heat from cold than it does from warm.
I hope I have explained that ok but as I said those with the sysyem could certainly explain it better.


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## corkgal (13 Mar 2009)

Buffer tank vs heat held in the house/floor.
In one of the posts higher up a poster said that the heat is held in the house, so whats the buffer tank? Does this store hot water, heated from nightsaver and then released during the day/ evening?


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## olddog (13 Mar 2009)

Kemosabe,

I dont mean to muddy the waters ( or be Devils Advocate ) but if I were in your position of initial planning a new build of a low heat loss house I would be thinking of a heat pump, a heat recovery unit and one ( or more depending on heat loss calculations ) wood burning stoves

The heat pump that I would be thinking in terms of would be an air - air unit. Perhaps something like

[broken link removed]

This type of unit seems to be remarkably efficient for spring / autumn but will probably struggle a bit  ( due to defrost cycle ) on cold winter days

I would have the heat recovery duct work sized to function as a ducted hot air heating system and use a heat recovery unit that integrates with the heat pump e.g. one of these

[broken link removed] )

The wood burning stove(s) would be to supply additional energy to the heat recovery unit on cold winter days

One negative is that you dont get hot water from this system

One positive is that the system can also be used to cool the house in summer

Having said all that I would doubt that Mitsubishi would be the best choice for Ireland. I have yet to meet an Irish Mitsubishi dealer / installer with any interest in servicing the residential market. There are other brands ( Daiken, Toshiba, Panasonic, Fujitsu ).

HTH


Olddog


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## kemosabe (13 Mar 2009)

Hey Corkgal I have to keep stressing that I am far from an expert & I dont work in the area. I have done a fair bit of research & met with & spoke to a lot of people with different systems. I visited a house last week & saw an air to water system in operation with a buffer tank. As far as I understand it the buffer tank is exactly what you said above. It is a sizeable water tank that is very heavily insulated & stores the water heated by the pump. It holds the water before it goes to the underfloor heating in the house. The system is a circuit so the water returns to the bottom of the buffer tank having lost some of the heat.

No problem Olddog really appreciate the input. I definately intend to go with a heat recovery system & a wood burning stove. Am pricing a Daiken pump at the moment & saw a PZP one last week. I know nothing about air to air heat pumps so thanks for the link I will check it out.


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## corkgal (13 Mar 2009)

Not an expert either, just interested to see how this works and if there are any real savings.


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## kemosabe (13 Mar 2009)

At the start of this thread I was just seeking information but if Im honest deep down I had planned to go with oil, rads & stove back boiler. However as time goes on & the more people I meet & speak to I am more interested in the air to water system. I have been to two homes with it in operation & both these people are very happy & they believe they are making a small saving for very comfortable underfloor heat & hot water.
That in itself is something, however when you factor in the uncertainty re: future oil & gas reserves/prices it makes it more appealing. In addition as one plumber I met with pointed out to me, technology in this area is the future & is making huge strides. He believes in say ten years time there will be a much more efficient air to water pump available. Having it put in now will make it much easier (& cheaper) to retro-fit when the time is right.
I dont think the system is perfect & I am going to keep an open mind & try gather as much info as possible before I have to make the final call. So any horror stories out there re air to water or any other info, Im all ears ??


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## dj01 (18 Mar 2009)

DavyJones said:


> Valid points, but our weather does not support such a heating system. If you needed to run your heating constantly from oct through to april, than maybe I would consider fitting it.
> We could get a cold snap in august, and as you know switching your heating on for an hour is not an option.
> 
> Could you please answer these questions for me,
> ...



The system monitors outdoor temperature and the heat pump has a cut off temp setting, you simply set at what ext temperature you want heating to commence, if the temperature start falling the heating starts running at whatever internal temp you've set. 

House size is aprox. 2900sq ft. To be pedantic, it's not strictly geothermal, as it doesn't use ground collectors to take heat from the earth. The system cost inc. commissioning was in the region of 13k which includes the UF heating system throughout the house. There's also a grant for heat pumps including air source available from SEI.

One of the great aspects of the system we really like is that there heating is far more universal throughout the house, unlike rads where you can get cold spots that just don't heat as well. 

It suits our needs very well, but each person will have different needs and priorities, so what works for one may not for the next.


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