# Central heating question



## Darby O'Gill (9 Oct 2008)

Hello all.

I’m looking for advice or suggestions on installing a secondary heating option in my house.

My existing set-up is as follows-

I have an oil-fired system serving the entire house, installed in 1999. The boiler is a Firebird popular 120, producing a nominal 120,000 BTUs. The system is divided into three zones- downstairs, upstairs and hot water. In terms of usage, we use downstairs a lot this time of the year, upstairs less so. As we have electric showers, we only use the hot water for washing-up needs, and the occasional bath.

I’m considering replacing an open fire with a multi-fuel stove. What I want to do is use a back boiler on the stove to heat the downstairs rads. There would be no particular difficulty running pipe work to the hot press where all the various connections are located. The distance is not great and while I would have to go through a couple of internal walls, I would not have to open floors, as the pipes would be mostly hidden under the stairs. My questions are-


What is involved in tying in a solid fuel system to the existing system? Will I need additional items apart from stove, boiler and associated pipework?
In practical terms, how would the two systems operate together? For example, could I run the oil for an hour or so until the stove was fully fired up?
Is this a difficult plumbing job or relatively straightforward?
Any other issues to consider?
 
Thanks.


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## DavyJones (9 Oct 2008)

It is possible depending on your current system and how it is set up and wired. If your existing system is sealed I.E no small tank in attic, you will need to change it to open vented. you will need to get a dual coil cylinder, when stove is piped into radiator system it will need to bypass motorised valve, I.E downstairs zone is always open to stove line when it is hot. A good plumber will be albe to talk you through it. Make sure the right person does it as it may get a bit tricky and they will need to have done this kind of thing before.


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## Darby O'Gill (9 Oct 2008)

Thanks Davy. I hope to get the plumber who installed the system to do the job- just wanted to get a bit of background first to assess the complexity etc. As you've figured, I have motorised valves, controlled by timer/thermostats as required. 

What does open-vented mean? Does this refer to the need for a tank in the attic? (I only have my cold water tank up in the attic, so I'm pretty sure I have a sealed system).

 What is a dual-coil cylinder for?


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## DavyJones (9 Oct 2008)

you have a sealed system with an expansion vessel(usually round and red). when the system heats the water expands into this vessel. If the system ever got too hot the boiler has safety stats that will automatically shut it down. Safety valves are also fitted to system preset to open if pressure exceeds 3 bar.

open vented = no vessel but little tank high up in attic. it has a pipe from the heating system that bends over little tank called expansion pipe. When system heats, water rises up expansion pipe. 
Because a stove has no safety thermostats I.E you can not control temperture of natural fire you would need to allow the expanding water go somewhere I.E up expansion pipe and if needs be pour into expansion (little tank) this would only happen if the pump on the stove line went down due to failure or power cut.

Oil boiler + power cut = boiler shut down
stove + power cut = Very hot, still lit stove with boiling water in pipe work that needs to be able to safety expand some where.

If pump is running there is no problem. A good installer always thinks worst case and prevents.

Dual coiled cylinder is a cylinder with two coils. you will need to prevent the stove sending hot water to oil boiler (treating it like a huge radiator, very costly and pointless) and like wise when oil boiler is on sending hot heating water to stove. this is best acheived by using a dualed coiled cylinder and non return valves.


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## Darby O'Gill (9 Oct 2008)

Thanks Davy- fantastic explanation. If you're not Ireland's richest plumber, there is no God.....


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## DavyJones (9 Oct 2008)

Darby O'Gill said:


> Thanks Davy- fantastic explanation. If you're not Ireland's richest plumber, there is no God.....



 theres no God!

I seem to spend more time at my desk than under sinks lately....... which actually isn't a bad thing


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## DavyJones (9 Oct 2008)

one other thing...

For best results, this is how we do it. Run two 1 inch pipes to cylinder coil 1. flow and return. pipe, so natural circulation takes place I.E hot water rises to cylinder and cool water falls to stove naturally (no pump) there is a thermostat on flow at cylinder and when it reaches a preset tempature it sends power to pump that is tee'd off the cylinder line and connected to radiator system. pump comes on and sends heat to rads. thermostat cools down and shuts off pump. this cycle continues. No power to pump and cylinder absorbs heat from stove.

oil boiler goes to coil  2 and is tee'd into rad system. where these tee's are is where the non return valves are fitted on both branchs off lines 1 and 2. so when oil boiler pumps comes on it can't send hot water into stove cyliner line and like wise when stove pump comes on it can't send hot water into line of oil boiler to cylinder.

  Your plumber will be able to explain it better standing infront of you.


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## Darby O'Gill (9 Oct 2008)

Thanks again Davy.

Our existing cylinder is on the ground floor, so that presumably means I'd have to fit a new pump to send the stove water around- I'm guessing the cylinder will not gravity-feed the system as you suggest??


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## DavyJones (10 Oct 2008)

almost anything is possible these days. Your installer will advice.: www.soliftec.com/CentralHeating.pdf


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## Darby O'Gill (3 Nov 2008)

Well, thought I'd give an update as I see there are a lot of stove-related questions these days. 

Bad news: We have dropped the idea of a back-boiler stove. The layout of the house just makes it too much hardship. It would involve ripping up most of a bedroom floor upstairs, and ripping up part of a wooden floor downstairs before cutting a channel for a pipe. Not to mention changing the cylinder, effectively rebuilding the hot press and making holes in the chimney in a few places, going through a couple of walls etc. My plumber would give me a quote if I wanted, but he just thought it would be too expensive and not worth the stress- we accepted his advice.

Good news: We _are_ installing a stove. The plumber suggested we go ahead with a non-boiler model as the open-plan layout of our living area makes it ideal. He has suggested we consider replacing our ten-year old oil boiler with a condensing model, as well as fitting three thermostatic radiator valves in the living area. This means those rads would cut out once the stove got the room up to our preferred temperature, making an extra oil saving. I'm awaiting a quote for this.

Better news: Got a year-old Stanley Erin stove off my aunt for a pittance. Had to buy a few bits (top marks to Gings in Portlaoise) but the stove is here and in great order. 

I'm waiting for my builder to come tomorrow to widen the chimney opening so we can set the stove back a bit- it's only 18" so the stove won't fit. I've already taken out the old fireplace, fireback and hearth and loosely installed the 8" to 6" flue adaptor pending final fitting of the stove. I'll get a plasterer to tidy up the opening once the builder is done, paint it up, fit a new hearth (to be purchased), and fit the stove. 

Will post when it's done to let you know how it went. Hope this helps somebody......

Thanks to Davy Jones for his advice.


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## silvermints (6 Nov 2008)

Sorry for hijacking the thread this interests me too. I have a sealed oil fired central heating system. I also have a cooker with a back boiler which heats the water.I would like this cooker to heat the radiators as well. This cooker is beside the hot press where the copper cylinder is. 

My questions are:
1. Is it a big/expensive job to change to an open system
2. Are the only pipe runs neccesary between the cooker and hot press or
    will it be neccesary to run some back to the oil burner
3. Will I need to change the copper cylinder even though it already heats the water. 

Thanks in advance.


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## DavyJones (6 Nov 2008)

1 no
2 hopefully you can connect into rad system in hot press
3 no

These are the short answers.


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## silvermints (7 Nov 2008)

Thanks DavyJones


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## Darby O'Gill (23 Nov 2008)

*Re: Central heating question/stove*

Well, here's the update I promised for anyone interested. 

The stove is in and working. Here's a breakdown of the work and costs-

1. Blocklayer put in a new 4" concrete head to support the chimney breast. This involved cutting a slot either side of the breast just under the existing flue retainer to allow the head go in under the flue retainer. Once the head was in place, he cut out 9 inches of blockwork either side to make a 36" opening instead of the original 18". €150.
2. Plasterer bonded plasterboard around the opening and put a skim coat on it. Finished ope is 33.5 inches. €120.
3. As we were putting the new hearth flush with the floor, I needed a carpenter to cut back the wooden floor to suit. €20!! for a tough hour's work (solid maple).
4. Fitted the polished slate hearth myself. Put it down on some lean mix sand and cement. Hearth is in two pieces and cost €220. It's very nice.
5. Due to tolerances/access being too tight, we had to forget about going out through the top flue. Fitted a stainless steel 90 degree bend and about a foot of flue to the rear exit instead. Had to spray them black to match. Previously fitted the flue adaptor and sealed it in place in the chimney (€62). Flue €30, paint €12.
6. Used four off-cuts of carpet under the legs to allow me to move the stove about on the slate without gouging it. Once in place and squared up, put in lots of fire cement/sealant in the two joins in the pipes. Messy and awkward due to the low opening.

Today is our second day with it lit. Lots of interesting smells last night, due to paint curing, fire cement hardening, (paint burning?) and assorted dust burning off. Much more pleasant today, although getting the fire just right is taking a bit of practice. Plenty of heat, but turf really blackens the glass. 

I'm not sure the plasterboard is the best idea to form the ope with, and I doubt the paint on it will last. If not, I'll re-do it in the spring with something else. There's heat-resistant plaster which I might try.

So that's it. It looks lovely and really heats the rooms. Will source some good wood as soon as possible- coal is king for the moment though...


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## magtape (24 Nov 2008)

Hi Guys

Just picking up on the questions of your problem with the stove as regards to an open vented system and sealed systems.
This is one for the plumbers out there you can now get a stove that you can connect to a sealed system with no problems it has a stainless steel boiler and numerous other features.
I know this as we had the same problem as you with connecting a stove as we couldnt get natural circulation for a standard stove.
We employed the help of a company that supply a sealed stove and to date we now only use our oil boiler as a back up.
DavyJones might be interesred


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## Taydo (24 Nov 2008)

Hi Folks, Am interested in combining Solid Fuel and Pressurised system. I would be grateful to you Magtape if you could enlighten me as to who this company is that makes this boiler that can be integrated into a pressurised system? Thanks in Advance.


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## davidoco (24 Nov 2008)

magtape said:


> ...... you can now get a stove that you can connect to a sealed system with no problems ......


 
I'm sure somewhere in the small print there is a condition that you must not light the fire in the event of a power failure and there would have to be a heat leak zone for the exclusive use of the stove, also you may be prohibited in your choice of solid fuel - ie no coal.  

Can you post a link to product, if available?

Any solid fuel stove (vented) can heat a thermal store from which you obtain the heat for your rads by heat exchanger, hence the impression that you are using a pressurised system.  

Good diagram here on thermal store
http://www.boilerstoves.co.uk/boiler-stove-installation-D.html


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## DavyJones (24 Nov 2008)

Can't get your link to work, david.

magtape,  I am interested.What was the name of the company and the stove? 

I know system link do a thermal store and can be used on pressurised system but as far as I know you still need natural circulation to thermal store.


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## magtape (24 Nov 2008)

Its a Turbo Stove cant give the name ofthe company i think. should find it on google


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## Taydo (25 Nov 2008)

It wouldn't EStherm by any chance????


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## magtape (25 Nov 2008)

yes


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## Taydo (25 Nov 2008)

What price are they and how many rads can you run off them? Do you need a tri-coil tank and can they incorporate solar and condenser boiler??
Thanks for the info, much appreciated. Davy what do you make of it, a technical opinion is always good.


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## davidoco (25 Nov 2008)

magtape said:


> Its a Turbo Stove



It's a ugly lump of a stove.

Your still going to need a small tank above that stove.  It's a very good idea in that there is a heat exchanger inside the stove boiler box which is basically the same idea as a thermal store. The issue I see there is that there is very little store.

Anyone with the idea of linking up stove/oil boiler  should only consider an open system either linked using davys method in post no. 7  or the more complicated and costly systemlink/dunsley neutralizer


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## DavyJones (25 Nov 2008)

magtape said:


> yes




Read link on Estherm website with interest. 

Have a few questions.

Do you burn coal in stove?

What happens if power failure occurs?

Is an external thermal exchanger/store fitted?

Do you have a connection to Estherm? as you have mentioned them in different threads.


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## magtape (26 Nov 2008)

The only connection we have is they fitted a stove for us and we are very pleased. We have had stoves previous and none would heat all our rads.
They told us to burn Logs turf briquetts heatlogs they said coal was dirty and when the fan would stop you can get a build up of soot around the pipes cutting down on efficency.
You can get a battery back up for the stove but we didnt.
dont know about your question about thermal store sorry.
Ring them and find out


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## Taydo (27 Nov 2008)

Magtape Iasked this question off another on the site so to save you being left out I'll ask you also with regard to the turbo stove. how much electricity does the turbo stove use i.e for the fan/pump etc.Did you notice any massive increase in electicity bill with it running.


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## magtape (27 Nov 2008)

No Taydo I didnt notice any change in the electricity bill.  it says 41W on the fan


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## Taydo (28 Nov 2008)

Much obliged Magtape. Think I'll give them a shout.


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## foxybaz (4 Feb 2009)

Hi all,
Anyone have any experience with polished concrete floors?
There's one company here in Cork but all they do is come and polish the screed, the actual finish is decided by the aggregate mix and concrete colour which seems a bit random unless you are physically there when your 'floor' is being mixed, making sure everything is mixed correctly???
I'm not leaving this to chance and if I'm I'm going to the trouble and expense of polishing a large floor area then I want to have some sort of reassurance,
any advice?
Thanks.


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## ranley.co.uk (5 Feb 2009)

Foxybaz

Have a look at www.ranley.co.uk and get in touch should you require further information/advice.

Screed isn't the best surface for polishing as you cannot put a strength on it. The 10-20mm aggregate in the concrete provides the strength and the cement acts as the binder, so concrete needs to be used. Optimum strength for polishing is between 30-35n. You have to decide what aggregates, intregal colours etc you want to use to acheive the finish you are looking for. 

Things to take on board are, control joint placement, the use of polypropene fibres, concrete slump should be consistant, concrete should come from same source for entire floor keeping the materials consistant, concrete should be vibrated to ensure there are no airholes in the concrete once grinded etc. We provide a briefing paper which includes the elements to be considered, for contractors, architects, and clients so that everyone is aware of what has to be done. These are normal practices and with a little thought and planning you can have a truely unique floor finish. 

Ranley use the latest innovative dry grinding methods of polishing concrete. We use the latest HTC machines and tooling to provide this service in Ireland. The old method of wet polishing is not used as much today as dry polishing can leave a better finish without the mess of sludge etc when using water. Our process is dustless as we use the latest dustless technology.

All Ireland coverage.

Regards

Ranley Floor & Ceiling Services


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## baldyman27 (5 Feb 2009)

At least you openly declare your interest I suppose. Mods.........?


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## Brendan Burgess (6 Feb 2009)

Hi baldyman

It certainly is an ad, but it seems to provide specialist technical information as well. 

It's one of those difficult ones, but on balance I think we should leave it.

Brendan


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## baldyman27 (6 Feb 2009)

Brendan, fair enough, but its posted in a thread about central heating. Also, Foxybaz just posted to open the opportunity to reply. The floors on the site do look good though!!


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