# Going to the races while on sick leave.



## twofor1 (12 Jul 2022)

My GP put me on a 7 day course of antibiotics and said I should be fine in 10 days but to take two weeks off and gave me a 2 week sick cert, I am due back in work next Monday. My employer is paying me while out sick.

I am a lot better now, so I will be going to the evening meeting in Leopardstown on Thursday.

I appreciate it would not look great but I am not concerned about how things look any more, but could there be any basis for disciplinary proceedings if my employer knew I was at the races while on certified and paid sick leave ?


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## michaelm (12 Jul 2022)

Can't imagine.  Probably outside your working hours anyway.  Part of your rehabilitation.  I wouldn't worry about it (unless you work for the Tote).


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## Johnno75 (12 Jul 2022)

And pray you don’t meet your boss at the races! The question really is whether you’re fit for work. If you’re fit for the races, you’re probably fit for work.


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## michaelm (12 Jul 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> And pray you don’t meet your boss at the races!


What are the odds.


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## Paul O Mahoney (12 Jul 2022)

michaelm said:


> What are the odds.


Longer than any horse running I'd say but outsiders do turn up and you lose .


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## twofor1 (12 Jul 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> And pray you don’t meet your boss at the races!


Very possible, a few in the company including my direct boss would be frequent Leopardstown attendees, hence my question.


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## Johnno75 (12 Jul 2022)

I’m now a boss. I wasn’t always, and used to be an employee of several employers. I’ve learned that it’s best not to burn bridges.

If an employee of mine was off on certified sick leave for two weeks and I saw them at the races, during that leave, at the very least I wouldn’t be very impressed. An employee out for that length of time, depending on their duties and number of employees in the firm, can be very disruptive for the business. Whilst I’m not sure I’d go down the disciplinary route (as there is, after all, a doctor’s cert to rely on as a defence), I would certainly hold it as a black mark against the employee and proceed accordingly in general terms. 

Whilst you say you’re not concerned, you are concerned enough to ask the question in this forum.

Before you go the races, think of the following:

1. There is always a risk of disciplinary process. Regardless of the likelihood of the process being instituted, or the success or otherwise of the end result, it’s not a pleasant experience for anyone, least of all you.

2. Are you happy to remain working in an environment where your boss perceives you as a bit of a chancer (if you are caught at the races)?

3. Think of consequences down the line. Ultimately, you’re likely to leave this job and will likely require a reference. Are you happy to risk a disciplinary record and/or a less than favourable reference for the sake of an evening out?

4. When promotions, bonuses and pay rises are being considered, don’t think for a second that this kind of thing won’t come into the equation when decisions are being made. 

I’m not judging, and I know you might not care that much now about how your outing might be perceived if it came to light, but be careful how you proceed.

I’ve been an employee who has left one or two jobs earlier in my career on less than favourable terms, only to end up having to contact the former boss for some completely unforeseen favour or other (eg reference, confirmation of employment, forms to be signed). There’s nothing worse than having to come back to an old employer, years after you’ve left with your tail between your legs looking for something important that you need from them.


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## Clamball (12 Jul 2022)

No you are perfectly fine.  The certificate covers work only.  You do not need to be at home in bed to qualify for a sick certificate. 

Your doctor, I am guessing, is worried about a slow recovery if you return to work too soon.  Even if you go to the races you will probably be wiped out afterwards but you can rest.  Usually on antibiotics you start to feel really well after 24/48 hours but infections are nasty and you need time to rest and recuperate.

The issue with work is if you go back to work they expect you to be 100%, and do 100%, and they expect you to come again the next day and do it all over again.  You have nothing to hide by being off work sick so go to the races.

If your employer says, Hey 2for1, you were out enjoying yourself Thursday night but couldn’t be bothered to come to work Thursday or Friday so I am going to dock you 2 days pay; 

all you do is say “My doctor certified me as unfit for work for 2 weeks which is why I did not attend.  I am perfectly happy to attend a company doctor to allow them to determine my fitness for work, and I give permission for the company doctor to get records of my recent illness form my GP. “  

If they do follow up tell the company doctor you details, let them contact your GP, who will say “2for1 had x infection. I prescribed y treatment. In my professional opinion 2for1 was unfit for work for 2 weeks”. The company doctor will then report back to your company and say “I agree with doc A that 2for1 had an illness that prevented him from attending work until same date as Doc A.   The company doctor will not reveal to your company the nature of the illness or the treatment and for a simple thing like a nasty infection will not disagree with your GP.  

If they refuse to go down that route you work for a not nice company.  Remember no one at work should ask you what you what the nature of your illness was.


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## Clamball (12 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> Very possible, a few in the company including my direct boss would be frequent Leopardstown attendees, hence my question.


If you meet them do not be embarrassed, if they ask how you are, “Improving thanks, looking forward to being back at work Monday”. 

One incident of illness should not cause waves, sure it is disruptive, but so is getting covid and self isolating, so is going on holidays, so is maternity, parental, paternity, leave.  So is being call up for jury duty.   All of these things happen to companies, it is part of being in business.


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## Leo (12 Jul 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> 1. There is always a risk of disciplinary process. Regardless of the likelihood of the process being instituted, or the success or otherwise of the end result, it’s not a pleasant experience for anyone, least of all you.


As a boss, you should be aware that introducing the fact that someone attended a race meeting while off on certified sick leave is only going to end badly for the employer unless you have a qualified opinion stating they were fit to work. An employer who allows staff to return to work before the end of a certified medical leave is taking a risk. We insist that anyone wanting to return early submits a new medical certificate stating they are fit to return.


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## Johnno75 (12 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> As a boss, you should be aware that introducing the fact that someone attended a race meeting while off on certified sick leave is only going to end badly for the employer unless you have a qualified opinion stating they were fit to work. An employer who allows staff to return to work before the end of a certified medical leave is taking a risk. We insist that anyone wanting to return early submits a new medical certificate stating they are fit to return.


I never suggested introducing anything. I even suggested that a disciplinary was a non-runner. I’m giving some real-world advice here. Common sense.


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## blanketyblank (12 Jul 2022)

Personally I would be mortified if my boss saw me at the races while on sick leave!     I wouldn't risk it


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## Jim2007 (12 Jul 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> And pray you don’t meet your boss at the races! The question really is whether you’re fit for work. If you’re fit for the races, you’re probably fit for work.


And hope he does not have any accidents etc... because insurance cover is usually restricted to necessary activities if you are on certified sick leave.


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## PebbleBeach2020 (12 Jul 2022)

Legally you are fine to attend the races. Would I do so myself if I was in your shoes? Absolutely not. Not a chance in hell I would and as Johnno said, risk sullying my name and reputation within the company and possibly afterwards also.


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## Clamball (12 Jul 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> 2. Are you happy to remain working in an environment where your boss perceives you as a bit of a chancer (if you are caught at the races)?



You are on very shaky ground here if you think someone on sick leave cannot do a normal everyday activity like attend a social function while on sick leave.  There are many medical conditions that would prevent you from attending work but would still allow you to go to the races.  Your attitude towards illness and work are all wrong.

Two examples:

Your staff member has an accident at work and breaks his leg badly.  Four weeks later you see him being pushed around the race track by his mates.  It will be months before he is fit for work.

One of your staff members is back to work after 12 months maternity leave.  She goes out sick, rumour had it she was in hospital even.  You pass a restaurant and see her enjoying a meal with her family.  Her sick cert says she won’t be back for months.  

Is your attitude towards them both the same or are they both chancers?


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## Johnno75 (12 Jul 2022)

Clamball said:


> You are on very shaky ground here if you think someone on sick leave cannot do a normal everyday activity like attend a social function while on sick leave. There are many medical conditions that would prevent you from attending work but would still allow you to go to the races. Your attitude towards illness and work are all wrong.


Look, say what you want, but being off on certified paid sick leave and being seen at the races whilst so certified just isn’t a good look and can be damaging to one’s career. Regardless of the law, rights or wrongs, or employees’ rights. 

(BTW, I wouldn’t call going to the races a normal everyday activity).  

As regards my attitude, thanks for your views. But it all comes down to perspective. And I’ve given mine, as an employer. I would be unimpressed if I saw someone out socialising whilst being officially unable to work.


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## Clamball (12 Jul 2022)

blanketyblank said:


> Personally I would be mortified if my boss saw me at the races while on sick leave!     I wouldn't risk it



Why would you be mortified?  Is it that the illness is embarrassing or you feel you are only sick it you have a broken limb or a high temperature?  

What if you had just been diagnosed with epilepsy and your doctor does not want you at work for 6 weeks until the meds start working?  Why not go out and about then with your family and friends?  After all their support in a very traumatic time is so important.  

There are so many reason that you are medically unfit for work and yet capable of doing many other things; you sound like a super healthy person to me, with little empathy for sick or disabled people.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Jul 2022)

It’s a silly question.

Of course you shouldn’t go to the races whilst on sick leave.

It would look terrible.


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## twofor1 (12 Jul 2022)

Thanks for the interesting mix of responses both for going racing and not going racing.

I would be a well regarded, long term employee. I turn up on time every time. There have never been any issues with my work. I get on with all of my colleagues and management.  I have never been issued with any written or verbal warnings. My last sick day was 3 years ago.

I take on board the reasonable arguments put forward from the don’t go posters. But in my case anyway, I can't accept that going racing and meeting the boss could so negatively impact my future  as suggested.

I am a good employee who is certified not fit for work until next Monday, if there is no basis for disciplinary action, then I still intend going.


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## deanpark (12 Jul 2022)

Agreed its an awful decision to go ahead and go to the races whilst being "on the sick". Makes me think the OP is a bit dim or more likely being bloody minded & deliberately trying to stir it with his boss and trying to engineer a situation where he is found out, disciplined/ dismissed and then heads off to the WRC to shake the boss down.


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## PaddyBloggit (12 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> .... who is certified not fit for work until next Monday..... I still intend going.



If you're not fit for work, surely you are not fit for a trip to the races...

If you now consider yourself fit for work you can always get back to your doctor and get your cert up until tomorrow and head back to work on Wednesday.

Clear conscience and all that (for me it would be at any case).


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## noproblem (12 Jul 2022)

For those who think it's ok, including the poster, why don't you phone your Employer, the person who pays you and explain the dilemma you're in. Ask him/her if it's ok for you to go to a race meeting. If they say yes, then you have no problem.


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## Clamball (12 Jul 2022)

Sorry guys (and I think ye are all male) Deanpark, Gordon, Johnno, PebbleBeack, Blanketyblank, all of your opinions are outdated and do nothing to promote equality in the workplace, and if you are an employer or a people manager then I would recommend some education on equality and not discriminating towards people on the basis of their medical status.

None of us are GPs and they are the only ones who can decide on medical fitness for work.  

There are numerous illnesses, including mental illness, temporary, long term, accidents etc that make you unfit for work while being perfectly capable about being seen out in public.   Illness does not mean locking people up at home.


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## Johnno75 (12 Jul 2022)

Clamball said:


> Sorry guys (and I think ye are all male) Deanpark, Gordon, Johnno, PebbleBeack, Blanketyblank, all of your opinions are outdated and do nothing to promote equality in the workplace, and if you are an employer or a people manager then I would recommend some education on equality and not discriminating towards people on the basis of their medical status.
> 
> None of us are GPs and they are the only ones who can decide on medical fitness for work.
> 
> There are numerous illnesses, including mental illness, temporary, long term, accidents etc that make you unfit for work while being perfectly capable about being seen out in public.   Illness does not mean locking people up at home.


What the heck has the supposed gender of the posters with whom you disagree got to do with anything??


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## Sue Ellen (12 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> I take on board the reasonable arguments put forward from the don’t go posters. But in my case anyway, I can't accept that going racing and meeting the boss could so negatively impact my future as suggested.



In light of this view there does not appear to have been much point in asking the question so.


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## deanpark (12 Jul 2022)

Clamball said:


> Sorry guys (and I think ye are all male) Deanpark, Gordon, Johnno, PebbleBeack, Blanketyblank, all of your opinions are outdated and do nothing to promote equality in the workplace, and if you are an employer or a people manager then I would recommend some education on equality and not discriminating towards people on the basis of their medical status.
> 
> None of us are GPs and they are the only ones who can decide on medical fitness for work.
> 
> There are numerous illnesses, including mental illness, temporary, long term, accidents etc that make you unfit for work while being perfectly capable about being seen out in public.   Illness does not mean locking people up at home.


So based on your "logic" only a GP can post an opinion on this matter. 

 My input based on practical hands on experience of 30 years working in Ireland, UK and stints in Germany, Far East.   And I don't apologise for giving the OP a sensible and pragmatic reply which may be tough to hear but his proposal to go off to the gee gees is potentially career suicide.


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## Paul O Mahoney (12 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> Thanks for the interesting mix of responses both for going racing and not going racing.
> 
> I would be a well regarded, long term employee. I turn up on time every time. There have never been any issues with my work. I get on with all of my colleagues and management.  I have never been issued with any written or verbal warnings. My last sick day was 3 years ago.
> 
> ...


Then why post a thread? If you are going to attend anyway.

I know of someone 23 years in a job , who was seen playing golf whilst out sick, sacked the minute he got back into work.

If you're sick and out of work on full pay , would you not be responsible and ensure that you are fit to work and perhaps take some of the burden of your work that was shared out amongst your colleagues to cover your bits while out "sick", instead of living in large at the races.

The races are on the telly some free to air.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Jul 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> I’m giving some real-world advice here. Common sense.


100% agree.

As an employer, I would be furious, irrespective of the law. 

Brendan


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> As a boss, you should be aware that introducing the fact that someone attended a race meeting while off on certified sick leave is only going to end badly for the employer unless you have a qualified opinion stating they were fit to work.


This is 100% correct, and any employer who attempts to discipline an employee on this basis this would lose at the WRC.

The OP knows their own work situation best, however, and whether "word getting around" could be informally detrimental to his career prospects.


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## newirishman (12 Jul 2022)

If it is a short'ish term sick leave, say a week or two, I would not appreciate an employee on sick leave going to the races.
There's a chance that I would request an opinion from the doctor who issued the sick cert if this is an appropriate activity, and/or request additional assessment from a company appointed doctor.
Long term sick leave is a totally different story.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Jul 2022)

If someone I work with was off sick and I bumped into them at the races, I’d have concerns about their honesty, their work ethic, their ethics, and their intelligence.

To head off to the races is naive, foolish, and dishonest.

Plus it’s not just “the races”…it’s an Imelda May concert and booze-up.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Jul 2022)

Clamball said:


> Sorry guys (and I think ye are all male) Deanpark, Gordon, Johnno, PebbleBeack, Blanketyblank, all of your opinions are outdated and do nothing to promote equality in the workplace, and if you are an employer or a people manager then I would recommend some education on equality and not discriminating towards people on the basis of their medical status.
> 
> None of us are GPs and they are the only ones who can decide on medical fitness for work.
> 
> There are numerous illnesses, including mental illness, temporary, long term, accidents etc that make you unfit for work while being perfectly capable about being seen out in public.   Illness does not mean locking people up at home.


This is hilarious stuff.

A chancer’s charter!

Sorry boss, I can’t work, but I’m off to Leopardstown for the races AND THE IMELDA MAY CONCERT/BOOZE UP.

This Thursday is as much about the concert/party as it is about the race meeting.

It’s also possible to go back to work before one’s period of certified sick leave is over. Especially if one is well enough to attend an evening race meeting and concert!


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## deanpark (12 Jul 2022)

I'd get a sick cert to avoid hearing Imelda May!


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> My GP put me on a 7 day course of antibiotics and said I should be fine in 10 days but to take two weeks off and gave me a 2 week sick cert, I am due back in work next Monday. My employer is paying me while out sick.





Clamball said:


> your opinions are outdated and do nothing to promote equality in the workplace,





Clamball said:


> There are numerous illnesses, including mental illness, temporary, long term, accidents etc that make you unfit for work



Clamball

Did you read his first post. He is taking anti-biotics.  My opinions might be outdated, but do they give antibiotics for mental illness and tell people it will improve in 10 days? 

Presumably he has some sort of infection and has been told to mind himself. 

That would not include going to Leopardstown. 

Anyone with an ounce of sense could see that.  The legal position might be that he could not be disciplined for going to a race meeting.  


But it sounds to me that he is well enough to return to work and should do so.  Then he can go to the race meeting with a clear conscience. 

Brendan


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## Sue Ellen (12 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Then he can go to the race meeting with a clear conscience.



and hopefully not pick up Covid in light of lowered immune system (after illness) and large crowd.  A further absence because of Covid would certainly not go down well with the employer.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Jul 2022)

Sue Ellen said:


> and hopefully not pick up Covid in light of lowered immune system (after illness) and large crowd.  A further absence because of Covid would certainly not go down well with the employer.


Sure you’re only a woman. What would you know?


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## Paul O Mahoney (12 Jul 2022)

Clamball said:


> Sorry guys (and I think ye are all male) Deanpark, Gordon, Johnno, PebbleBeack, Blanketyblank, all of your opinions are outdated and do nothing to promote equality in the workplace, and if you are an employer or a people manager then I would recommend some education on equality and not discriminating towards people on the basis of their medical status.
> 
> None of us are GPs and they are the only ones who can decide on medical fitness for work.
> 
> There are numerous illnesses, including mental illness, temporary, long term, accidents etc that make you unfit for work while being perfectly capable about being seen out in public.   Illness does not mean locking people up at home.


Sanctimonious claptrap.

The poster said he/her/ or whatever the poster identifies as is on antibiotics,  so its probably a bacterial infection. Its certainly not mental, an accident or an etc...which isn't an illness.

Being seen in public is fine, being seen on a racecourse watching and betting with the money the Employer is paying out for not working is ..............I suppose and illness too, but incurable as its greed, entitlement and shows another symptom of what's wrong with this country.

Get up the yard


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## becky (12 Jul 2022)

Context is important here.

I wouldn't consider a day at the races comparable to any job. If there is such a job I'd like to know. 

Now if someone was able to play a game of tennis, squash etc that would be different.

Surely, the sick leave record is the first thing to look at.

If the employee has taken sick leave every year which happens to be same week as the Galway Races (we had such a case and the squash player), then there is reason to investigate further. 

If there is no pattern, nothing to see here. 

I've only taken strong antibiotics once and did go work. I found it tough going.


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## twofor1 (12 Jul 2022)

Just to clarify, the only question I have asked is;  Could there be any basis for disciplinary proceedings if my employer knew I was at the races while on certified and paid sick leave ? The answer seems to be a definite no, thanks to all who confirmed this.

There can be many illnesses  where one can be out and about after antibiotics but not be well enough to work, a lot also depends on the job. 

On Covid, believe me, I would have a far higher chance of catching it at work, than I would have outdoors on a sunny evening at Leopardstown races.


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## aristotle (12 Jul 2022)

OP, if you were an employer and one of your staff did this what would you think?


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## becky (12 Jul 2022)

Sue Ellen said:


> and hopefully not pick up Covid in light of lowered immune system (after illness) and large crowd.  A further absence because of Covid would certainly not go down well with the employer.


I didn't think about covid, good point.

Also I haven't been racing for years but back in the day, you'd need your full strength for one of the busy days at Galway. I was thinking more of the Monday evening meetings which are easy going.


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## Jim2007 (12 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> I am a good employee who is certified not fit for work until next Monday, if there is no basis for disciplinary action, then I still intend going.



Nobody can tell if your employer will decide to take action or not.  You are on sick leave and continuing to receive compensation, if they are serious POed they might take the view it was fraud and warranted instant dismissal and make a criminal complaint or they might say nice one, enjoying a break on our dime or something in between.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Jul 2022)

Or a cold wind could suddenly blow in your direction, where your career prospects suddenly don’t seem as bright as they once were.


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## Paul O Mahoney (12 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> Just to clarify, the only question I have asked is;  Could there be any basis for disciplinary proceedings if my employer knew I was at the races while on certified and paid sick leave ? The answer seems to be a definite no, thanks to all who confirmed this.
> 
> There can be many illnesses  where one can be out and about after antibiotics but not be well enough to work, a lot also depends on the job.
> 
> On Covid, believe me, I would have a far higher chance of catching it at work, than I would have outdoors on a sunny evening at Leopardstown races.


Definite No, really? 

If it happens and you're sacked what defense do you propose to use? 

It's your life and its your decision but I think the majority has said it's foolish and theirs a lot of extremely knowledgeable people on this site, from multiple walks of life and business.


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## arbitron (13 Jul 2022)

I write people sick notes every day. I'm also a manager.

You are entitled to socialise and be a human being when you're off sick. It's not a binary situation where you are either 100% fit or on your deathbed.

Unfortunately some people do not understand/accept this and your boss may be one of them.


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## Clamball (13 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Clamball
> 
> Did you read his first post. He is taking anti-biotics.  My opinions might be outdated, but do they give antibiotics for mental illness and tell people it will improve in 10 days?.





Brendan Burgess said:


> But it sounds to me that he is well enough to return to work and should do so.  Then he can go to the race meeting with a clear conscience.
> 
> Brendan


Yes, I did read the OP post.  I am not saying he has a mental illness, I am trying to say that as a manager or employer you cannot determine what illness a person has or their fitness for work if you encounter them outside work.  As a manager or employer you have to bear in mind that many illness are not visible and that a GP has given a professional opinion on their fitness for work.  

This is why many companies require a “fit to return to work certificate” if an employee wishes to return before their certified sick leave is up.  It is not up to Brendan Burgess as a manager to determine fitness for work on the basis of your non professional opinion that “you sound fine to me, get back to work”.


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## Clamball (13 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Sanctimonious claptrap.
> 
> The poster said he/her/ or whatever the poster identifies as is on antibiotics,  so its probably a bacterial infection. Its certainly not mental, an accident or an etc...which isn't an illness.
> 
> ...



People are entitled to keep their medical information confidential because otherwise people make judgements -  all I am trying to say is don’t judge.


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## Gordon Gekko (13 Jul 2022)

Please enlighten us by revealing the ailment that necessitates an antibiotic, prevents an employee from working, but enables that employee to attend an evening at the races and an Imelda May concert.

What’s next, heading off to Spain whilst on sick leave?

And woe betide anyone who concludes that the person is a waster who should be managed out.

Interestingly, there appears to be case law in the UK where a guy was fired for being dishonest when he was found in the pub whilst on sick leave. He was reinstated, but mainly because the entire process wasn’t really documented properly. The commentary around the case cautions people around concluding that they can’t be fired for hitting the sauce whilst on sick leave.


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## Johnno75 (13 Jul 2022)

Clamball said:


> People are entitled to keep their medical information confidential because otherwise people make judgements -  all I am trying to say is don’t judge.


Whilst you yourself have judged those with opposing views to your own as likely members of a particular gender in your earlier post? (Whilst at the same time espousing equality and recommending that those same people be educated on discrimination!) Gwanouttathat!!


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## Ceist Beag (13 Jul 2022)

What's very interesting here is that the OP has absolutely no intention of going back to work before the cert is up, despite the fact they feel perfectly fine again. That says a lot to me.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Jul 2022)

becky said:


> I've only taken strong antibiotics once and did go work. I found it tough going.



But he has covered that already? 






						Going Report
					






					www.leopardstown.com


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## odyssey06 (13 Jul 2022)

arbitron said:


> I write people sick notes every day. I'm also a manager.
> 
> You are entitled to socialise and be a human being when you're off sick. It's not a binary situation where you are either 100% fit or on your deathbed.
> 
> Unfortunately some people do not understand/accept this and your boss may be one of them.


In this specific case, based on the info on the thread which the OP just added... 
_"Any job that requires a lot of concentration, accuracy or attention to detail, any high pressure job, any job that is safety critical or any job that is physical or involves manual labour."_

Yes.

But in a less demanding role, if you had someone out for 2 weeks with say, a chest infection, would you write them a sick note for Day 10 of the illness even though they are capable of say going to a concert?


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## twofor1 (13 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> There can be many illnesses  where one can be out and about after antibiotics but not be well enough to work, a lot also depends on the job.


To expand on this a bit, there are jobs in most fields where a person could be well enough to be out and about after antibiotics but not well enough to work, some examples would be;

Any job that requires a lot of concentration, accuracy or attention to detail, any high pressure job, any job that is safety critical or any job that is physical or involves manual labour. You would need to be 100% firing on all cylinders for these jobs, you do not need to be 100% to spend a leisurely few hours outdoors watching the racing on a sunny summer evening while in the final stages of recovery. My job would fit in to one of the categories mentioned and my employer would not want me at work unless I was 100% and although a lot better, I am not there yet.

I have stated in my original post that being at the races  while certified sick would not look great, I know that. If this issue got to HR, the first thing they would do is look at my past illness history, they would see there has been no sick days in over 3 years. They would look at my personnel file and see there were no performance or disciplinary issues whatsoever over many years. So while being at the races might not look good initially when they look a bit further it will be apparent that this is a valuable and responsible employee who went to the races for a leisurely few hours when almost recovered from his certified illness.

Particularly as posters here with knowledge on these matters say there is no basis for disciplinary action in this case which was the original and only question asked, I would not expect my employer give me  grief either now or in the future on this issue.  I expect I will be fully recovered by Monday and back to my usual turn up on time every time, doing a good job and not giving my employer any hassle whatsoever, same as I have been doing for years.


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## michaelm (13 Jul 2022)

Trying to pick horses taxes my brain too much so the odd time I'm at the races I just back the grey horses.  No picking to it and easy to spot in running.


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## odyssey06 (13 Jul 2022)

michaelm said:


> Trying to pick horses taxes my brain too much so the odd time I'm at the races I just back the grey horses.  No picking to it and easy to spot in running.


I used to do the same with greyhounds... that or pick the same number each time.

Maybe the OP can use that line if they bump into a colleague


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## CuriousCork (13 Jul 2022)

Ceist Beag said:


> What's very interesting here is that the OP has absolutely no intention of going back to work before the cert is up, despite the fact they feel perfectly fine again. That says a lot to me.


I agree. I would be disgusted if one of my employees carried on like the poster is doing.  If I saw one of my employees carry on like that I would carry out a formal disciplinary process and ensure they got no pay rises going forward. He is letting his whole team, and himself/herself, down.


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## odyssey06 (13 Jul 2022)

CuriousCork said:


> I agree. I would be disgusted if one of my employees carried on like the poster is doing.  If I saw one of my employees carry on like that I would carry out a formal disciplinary process and ensure they got no pay rises going forward. He is letting his whole team, and himself/herself, down.


Depends on the job though... that was my initial reaction based on my role. But what if the OP is an air traffic controller? Or drives a fire engine?


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## Leo (13 Jul 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> I never suggested introducing anything. I even suggested that a disciplinary was a non-runner. I’m giving some real-world advice here. Common sense.


I might be miss-reading, but you said " There is always a risk of disciplinary process." Are you saying what you meant is that there is no risk of a disciplinary process?


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## Leo (13 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Definite No, really?
> 
> If it happens and you're sacked what defense do you propose to use?


What grounds could the employer use to fire them?


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## Johnno75 (13 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> I might be miss-reading, but you said " There is always a risk of disciplinary process." Are you saying what you meant is that there is no risk of a disciplinary process?


No. There is always a risk of disciplinary process. The outcome however (if conducted fairly) would more than likely be in favour of the employee in this instance. 

What I didn’t suggest was that disciplinary process should be invoked (or introduced). Maybe I have misunderstood your point, but for clarity, as a boss, I fully understand the rights of employees and will always give the benefit of the doubt. That said, my own personal view might well be influenced by an employee who is unable to attend work based on their being certified sick on the one hand, and then sees fit to attend a crowded social event on the other. 

That said, I don’t know the OP’s employer. They may well think otherwise. 

As it happens, I’ve worked for an employer who has dismissed an employee who was seen out and about whilst on certified paid sick leave. I’m not saying it’s right but it all depends on the circumstances.


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## Leo (13 Jul 2022)

CuriousCork said:


> I agree. I would be disgusted if one of my employees carried on like the poster is doing.  If I saw one of my employees carry on like that I would carry out a formal disciplinary process and ensure they got no pay rises going forward. He is letting his whole team, and himself/herself, down.


How would that look to the WRC? The rest of your staff? An employer initiates a disciplinary procedure based on a member of staff not showing up to work while on certified leave? I'd advise a chat with your employment law representatives to brush on your responsibilities here before you end up in the headlines. 

We've moved on from the days when employers owned their workforce, our legislation offers far greater protections to employees from unfair or abusive employers. It is unlikely that the doctor advised someone with a bacterial infection to cocoon at home.

We don't know the whole story of the OP's relationship with their employer, their track record, or how well or poorly that employer treats their staff. The majority of employees are reasonably committed to their work and pull their weight, likewise the majority of employers are fair and accept that their staff have lives outside of the workplace. An employer who has so little trust in their staff that the sight of them out of their bed while on sick leave stirs anger or a need for retribution should have a long hard look at themselves. Anyone who thinks they might be working for such an employer should get out now.


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## Leo (13 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> That's for legal people to argue


Haha, the legal people representing your company will laugh at this suggestion, then when they realise you're not joking, will take you aside and have a chat. This is employment law 101....


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## Leo (13 Jul 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> No. There is always a risk of disciplinary process. The outcome however (if conducted fairly) would more than likely be in favour of the employee in this instance.


Sorry, now there's a chance again, but in post #11 it's a non-runner? Employment law is very clear here, you absolutely cannot discipline an employee for not showing up to work while on medical leave. There are measures that allow you to request the employee attends a company appointed doctor for an independent assessment, but this only applies to long term leave. I've been through that process before with a staff member, and our HR and legal advisors were heavily involved to make sure everything we said or put in writing would pass scrutiny. 




Johnno75 said:


> What I didn’t suggest was that disciplinary process should be invoked (or introduced). Maybe I have misunderstood your point, but for clarity, as a boss, I fully understand the rights of employees and will always give the benefit of the doubt. That said, my own personal view might well be influenced by an employee who is unable to attend work based on their being certified sick on the one hand, and then sees fit to attend a crowded social event on the other.


Yeah, I was outlining the legal position, what we can't account for is how an employer might informally, and without ever referencing seeing them at the races punish an employee for being out while on certified leave. That would be a much more difficult one for an employee to prove in the WRC.

We all have our suspicions about certain people not pulling their weight, but if you want really committed people working for you, it has to start with trust. A decision to punish an employee based on seeing them out while on leave one time is a red flag for poor management. That person might be putting in twice the effort of others who just show up on time all the time. Punish them and you're just left with the wasters. Put in the effort to carry out proper performance management and you'll know what each of them contribute, and you won't get upset if one of them shows up at the races while on leave because you'll know they get the job done. If they're not performing, you can base any disciplinary action on that alone, and not risk giving them a pay out over something like this.


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## Leo (13 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Good to know I'm not an employer/employee so it doesn't matter to me on jot.


So why feel the need to weigh in? There's a real person here looking for advice so if you're unfamiliar with the legislation you're best not to offer an opinion on it.


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## Johnno75 (13 Jul 2022)

If I was advising on this issue (and I have more than a passing knowledge in this area), my advice would be as follows, based on the facts we know. 

Disciplinary process would likely result in the employee succeeding at that forum or any appellate forum. 

That does not, in the real world, prevent an employer in commencing such a process or taking a dim view of the employee’s actions. Many disciplinary processes should never have commenced in the first place. But that’s the difference between the law and reality. It’s all well and good providing legal advice (I know all about that), but there are other considerations over and above the legal position to take into account. No point in simply telling the employee he’s legally in the right when he could be dragged through a process by a belligerent employer and/or have his/her life made uncomfortable in the workplace. 

If the employee in this instance wants an easy life, they shouldn’t risk attending the races and/or the concert.


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## Leo (13 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Singling me out Leo?


Not my intention, the same applies to all, anyone unfamiliar with employment legislation should be wary of offering advice on such matters.


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## CuriousCork (13 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> How would that look to the WRC?


Believe me Leo, I would be subtle about it. I would have a Disciplinary hearing to send him/her a strong message about how their team was let down, how other team members had to do heir work which he was enjoying himself/herself  at the races etc. I would then provide a verbal warning etc. I would not let it go to the WRC.


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## noproblem (13 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> Not my intention, the same applies to all, anyone unfamiliar with employment legislation should be wary of offering advice on such matters.


Should be a sign in most workplaces going on that logic. "Beware, this is a warning and may affect your employment status. An opinion is not tolerated in this workplace unless accompanied by legislation"


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## T McGibney (13 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> Not my intention, the same applies to all, anyone unfamiliar with employment legislation should be wary of offering advice on such matters.


There is more than employment legislation involved here though as comments from @Johnno75 and others make clear.


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## phoenix53 (13 Jul 2022)

A persons life in the workplace on a daily basis can be made miserable/uncomfortable without any mention of disciplinary action taking place.  I unfortunately have seen it happen.  Chances for promotion, bonuses, etc can be subtlety blocked without anyone even knowing they are being "blocked".  Guess it all depends on your boss and the type of person he/she is.

I personally wouldn't chance it if my job meant a lot to me and if it was my means for living.  Why make life potentially difficult for yourself after such a good record in the place.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> I am a lot better now, so I will be going to the evening meeting in Leopardstown on Thursday.
> 
> I appreciate it would not look great but I am not concerned about how things look any more, but could there be any basis for disciplinary proceedings if my employer knew I was at the races while on certified and paid sick leave ?



It's worth revisiting the original question.

He does not care about his career prospects _any more. _

Could there be disiplinary proceedings?  Legal opinion seems to be that there can't be. 

Brendan


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## Leo (13 Jul 2022)

CuriousCork said:


> Believe me Leo, I would be subtle about it. I would have a Disciplinary hearing to send him/her a strong message about how their team was let down, how other team members had to do heir work which he was enjoying himself/herself  at the races etc. I would then provide a verbal warning etc. I would not let it go to the WRC.


Like the similar question, what grounds would you initiate the disciplinary hearing on? If it's not turning up for work while on certified sick leave, you're guaranteed to lose that case should the employee choose to take it to the WRC. The only way you could stop it going to the WRC is by offering them a settlement in excess of what they would get there. 

I'm very glad I don't work for you.


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## Leo (13 Jul 2022)

T McGibney said:


> There is more than employment legislation involved here though as comments from @Johnno75 and others make clear.


Absolutely, as I've said. I'm focusing on the opinions of some that this warrants a formal disciplinary process and advising any such move wwould be very foolish.


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## becky (13 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's worth revisiting the original question.
> 
> He does not care about his career prospects _any more. _
> 
> ...


I didn't read it that he didn't care about his career prospects. He said he did not care what it looked like. 

I work in HR and if a manager came to me with this, it wouldn't go any further. The OP has stated he hasn't had sick leave for over 3 years.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Jul 2022)

becky said:


> I didn't read it that he didn't care about his career prospects. He said he did not care what it looked like.



He is clearly at the end of his career and doesn't care about it any more.

What else does "not care what it looks like" mean?

That he can drink pints with his boss at the Imelda May gig while absent from work and that his boss won't care either?


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## PebbleBeach2020 (13 Jul 2022)

This thread has got some legs!!!!


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## noproblem (13 Jul 2022)

PebbleBeach2020 said:


> This thread has got some legs!!!!


I think Brendan might cut the legs from under this particular one any minute at all now. But, let it be a warning to any potential employer out there, in other words, who's working for who?


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## Gordon Gekko (13 Jul 2022)

Employee dismissed for drinking in pub whilst on sick leave wins unfair dismissal claim
					

The (misleading) revelation that "visiting the pub while on sick leave is not a sackable offence" has been doing the rounds of the press recently. The recent case of Kane v. Debmat Surfacing Limited ET/2501862/2020 is the cause of this bold statement, in which a Judge has ruled that an employee...




					www.michelmores.com
				




A UK case, but interesting nonetheless.

The issue seemed to be the lack of process and procedures rather than sacking the guy for being dishonest.


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## Salvadore (14 Jul 2022)

Clamball said:


> No you are perfectly fine.  The certificate covers work only.  You do not need to be at home in bed to qualify for a sick certificate.
> 
> Your doctor, I am guessing, is worried about a slow recovery if you return to work too soon.  Even if you go to the races you will probably be wiped out afterwards but you can rest.  Usually on antibiotics you start to feel really well after 24/48 hours but infections are nasty and you need time to rest and recuperate.
> 
> ...


The trouble is that when you’re explaining, you’re losing (even in the unlikely event that you’re asked).

The traditional view would be that if you’re fit for an evening at the races, you’re fit for work. That’s the view your boss would take and one that would be likely to influence his/her relationship with you in the future, although not necessarily explicitly.


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## becky (14 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> He is clearly at the end of his career and doesn't care about it any more.
> 
> What else does "not care what it looks like" mean?
> 
> That he can drink pints with his boss at the Imelda May gig while absent from work and that his boss won't care either?


I read it as, he doesn't care about optics.

In this case I don't think the OP has any case to answer. 

The 2 cases I mentioned earlier. One was an employee who took sick leave every year to go to the races, the other was a someone who was on sickleave but appeared in the local paper winning a sports event. Both were disciplined.


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## twofor1 (14 Jul 2022)

What I said in my original post was ‘’I appreciate it would not look great but I am not concerned about how things look anymore’’, that is very different to ‘’doesn't care anymore’’

The reason I am not concerned is I have a proven track record of exemplary service to the company over many years, and have not had a sick day in over 3 years.

There are many jobs in every field that require you to be fully on the ball, mine is one of them. The well enough to go racing / well enough to work argument does not always hold. You cannot compare 8 fully on the ball  hours at work to a few leisurely hours outdoors on a summer evening watching the racing.

If I could go to work today I would. The first question the doctor would ask is, how are you, I would honestly say, a lot better but not fully there yet, he would say, then stay out until Monday like your cert says.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> The reason I am not concerned is I have a proven track record of exemplary service to the company over many years, and have not had a sick day in over 3 years.



And exactly which bit do you think your boss will remember if they see you at the races?  Your unblemished record or you jumping up and down at Imelda May?


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## jasdpace@gmail. (14 Jul 2022)

Why doesn't the OP go to his doc today and tell him that there is no way that he would feel ready to go to work tomorrow - so he is wondering is the doctor absolutely sure that he will definitely be 100% fit to perform his challenging role on Monday - otherwise, wouldn't it be better for all concerned if he was signed off for a few more days? So doing would thereby avoid the terrible situation of the OP not feeling 100% up to work when Monday morning comes around because at that stage, his inevitable non-attendance would not give the employer any forewarning of his continued need to recuperate. By letting the employer know today, the really great thing is that the employer has then more time to make whatever contingencies are required and, surely, no right thinking person would want to run the risk of an employee, who is not in the whole of his health, being tempted to show up for work because of the best guess of a doc 2 weeks previously?


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## elcato (14 Jul 2022)

noproblem said:


> I think Brendan might cut the legs from under this particular one any minute at all now. But, let it be a warning to any potential employer out there, in other words, who's working for who?



I must say this thread should be an eyeopener to any young people joining the workplace. It has the opposite viewpoint of both employee and employer with all opinions being very close to the bone of the real world. It is also a good example of a proper debate. Please leave it open.


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## 24601 (14 Jul 2022)

It's fairly straight forward. Can you go? Yes. Would your employer be able to do anything should you be seen there? No, not legally anyway. Would your employer look unfavourably on such behaviour? Maybe, maybe not (I would say probably, though). So should you go? Common sense would suggest not. Perception matters, and being perceived as being on a session at the races when out on the sicker is never good. But you seem to have your mind made up. Chances are you won't be seen anyway but sure let us know how you get on.


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## Gordon Gekko (14 Jul 2022)

Any tips for this evening?


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## deanpark (14 Jul 2022)

Imelda May's encore will be that awful song that goes like Johnnys got a boom boom.


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## jasdpace@gmail. (14 Jul 2022)

deanpark said:


> Imelda May's encore will be that awful song that goes like Johnnys got a boom boom.



Or maybe a cover of Hothouse Flowers' best known song?


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## David_Dublin (14 Jul 2022)

OP....Here's a question. If you have a cert to be off for 10 working days and are fine by day 7, do you go back in to work? 
Seems to me the type of people that are good with going to the races would be taking their full "entitlement", and staying out even when fit to return. Those entitlement type people are not the type I look to employ.


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## RichInSpirit (14 Jul 2022)

A lot of sectors are finding it difficult to get any new workers.
Some employers are very thankful to retain their existing staff.
I think small little character defects like going to the races while on sick leave or going on the beer for days or weeks at a time could be overlooked.


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## PaddyBloggit (14 Jul 2022)

RichInSpirit said:


> I think small little character defects like going to the races while on sick leave or going on the beer for days or weeks at a time could be overlooked.


----------



## ArthurMcB (14 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> But yet you did it, and I haven't seen you say anything to the others.


With all due respect Paul, you were correctly called out for offering poor advice on something you "dont give a jot about" and presumably no little about. in that scenario its best to not weigh in.

Think its been said by many already. Legally, your employer couldnt/shouldnt reprimand you and thats pretty obvious I think. 

However, it would look very bad if you were seen and so_* if you care about how you are perceived then you should not attend*_.


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## Leo (14 Jul 2022)

David_Dublin said:


> OP....Here's a question. If you have a cert to be off for 10 working days and are fine by day 7, do you go back in to work?


An employer would no doubt look very favourably on someone doing that, but they should immediately send them packing unless they have an up to date cert now stating they are fit to work. Most employer insurance will be very clear on that, you are completely exposed if you allow someone work while certified unfit to do so.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Jul 2022)

jasdpace@gmail. said:


> By letting the employer know today,



He can tell him in person when he sees him at the concert


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Jul 2022)

Imelda May thinks our whole discussion is ridiculous.


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## MrEarl (15 Jul 2022)

I'm just dying to hear how the original poster got on, and also,  how they get on in work, next week

If I were the original poster, there's no way in hell that I'd have gone to the races, but I take Brendan's point about the poster not caring about potential career implications etc.


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## Johnno75 (15 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> My GP put me on a 7 day course of antibiotics and said I should be fine in 10 days but to take two weeks off and gave me a 2 week sick cert, I am due back in work next Monday. My employer is paying me while out sick.
> 
> I am a lot better now, so I will be going to the evening meeting in Leopardstown on Thursday.
> 
> I appreciate it would not look great but I am not concerned about how things look any more, but could there be any basis for disciplinary proceedings if my employer knew I was at the races while on certified and paid sick leave ?


Well! Tell us! How’d it go? Bump into anyone?


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## Brendan Burgess (15 Jul 2022)

What was Imelda May like, like?


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## twofor1 (15 Jul 2022)

Two winners, still down a bit overall. Met no one there from work. No interest in Imelda, I left  at 8:30 after the last race.


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## admin (15 Jul 2022)

As they say “horses for antibiotic courses”


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## november16 (15 Jul 2022)

CuriousCork said:


> I agree. I would be disgusted if one of my employees carried on like the poster is doing.  If I saw one of my employees carry on like that I would carry out a formal disciplinary process and ensure they got no pay rises going forward. He is letting his whole team, and himself/herself, down.


Wow


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## november16 (15 Jul 2022)

CuriousCork said:


> Believe me Leo, I would be subtle about it. I would have a Disciplinary hearing to send him/her a strong message about how their team was let down, how other team members had to do heir work which he was enjoying himself/herself  at the races etc. I would then provide a verbal warning etc. I would not let it go to the WRC.


curious and curiouser subtle bullying maybe harassment also possibly illegal


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## odyssey06 (15 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> Two winners, still down a bit overall. Met no one there from work. No interest in Imelda, I left  at 8:30 after the last race.


Not good enough OP. We are emotionally invested now.You need to make sure everyone in the office knows you went so we can see how theyd react...


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## luckystar (15 Jul 2022)

Been following this thread with interest. ESP as a employer. Though was trying to think from an employee POV. Personally if it was me I would have mailed Thursday afternoon saying I was feeling a lot better and prepared to return to work the following day but wasn’t sure where I stood with being signed off and would be virtually impossible to get an appt for a ‘fit to return’ before then

Then totally covered! 

From an employer POV I’d be disappointed I think but do understand that it wasn’t during working hours. I presume had it if been a daytime event then a total no no and employees could be pulled up. But maybe I’m wrong?


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## deanpark (15 Jul 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> Not good enough OP. We are emotionally invested now.You need to make sure everyone in the office knows you went so we can see how theyd react...


He could wear an Imelda May pirates eyepatch to get the chat going at the watercooler.


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## llgon (15 Jul 2022)

The OP met no-one there from work. That doesn't mean that he/she wasn't seen. Maybe colleagues have read the thread as well.  

Even if they had I don't think there's anything to worry about but there's likely to be a bit of banter on Monday.


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## Johnno75 (15 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Nah, plenty of good advice and true professionals from all walks, who give time to help and advise those who need it , but this thread has truly jumped the shark on rules on decency,  integrity and morals.


Your contributions are as good as the next contributor’s Paul. No-one has a monopoly on knowledge here. The legal experts can give good legal advice, for example, but it’s not just about the law. Many other factors, as has been outlined on this thread, come into play in any given situation. Even the experts are not all in agreement on this one. The OP here may well have found himself involved in a disciplinary process, or may not. Who knows? It’s never black and white. The world is full of grey. Keep on contributing. Even if it matters not a jot to you, that just adds to your objectivity.


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## Paul O Mahoney (16 Jul 2022)

Johnno75 said:


> Your contributions are as good as the next contributor’s Paul. No-one has a monopoly on knowledge here. The legal experts can give good legal advice, for example, but it’s not just about the law. Many other factors, as has been outlined on this thread, come into play in any given situation. Even the experts are not all in agreement on this one. The OP here may well have found himself involved in a disciplinary process, or may not. Who knows? It’s never black and white. The world is full of grey. Keep on contributing. Even if it matters not a jot to you, that just adds to your objectivity.


I know I had the dis- pleasure of letting people go for "behaviour that wasn't in keeping with corporate standards " and the argument went to court, the corporate prevailed as the contract of employment was written in a very US way with onus on the employee to comply with the employment contract.( that was 20 + years ago but in this century)

Of course the lawyers for those who lost their jobs said " it happened outside working hours " I often wonder what happened to those people. 

And having a job is the dream of billions and to  have one with full medical pay and then treat it a hindrance to your private life, is simply foreign to me .

I'm not suggesting that a person should be a slave either but having a job should instill a sense of responsibility.

Thanks for the kind words, Regards


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## Salvadore (16 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> Two winners, still down a bit overall.



Sorry to hear. Maybe you could get a cert for depression.


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## Sue Ellen (16 Jul 2022)

twofor1 said:


> Two winners, still down a bit overall. Met no one there from work. No interest in Imelda, I left  at 8:30 after the last race.



What was the crowd like? Were you worried about contracting Covid?


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## Peanuts20 (18 Jul 2022)

As a manager, I've been in this position before, in one case, a person off sick but spotted by a colleague working on a market stall and in another case, a person off sick but dumb enough to post their holiday phots on social media and again, mentioned to me in passing. 

On the first case, it was a straight-forward enough disciplinary process which led to a final warning, as there was some mitigation. The 2nd one was more complex as depending on the sick cert (and bear in mind, a sick cert does not have to contain the reason a person is off, "sick" is legally sufficient) we felt after taking legal advice that any disciplinary action would fail. However, it more or less ended the person's career with us as the story got around the grapevine quite quickly, her colleagues were so cheesed off and she left after a few months.


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## Leo (18 Jul 2022)

luckystar said:


> From an employer POV I’d be disappointed I think but do understand that it wasn’t during working hours. I presume had it if been a daytime event then a total no no and employees could be pulled up. But maybe I’m wrong?


Yeah, a cert saying they are not fit to work does not mean they have to remain at home during working hours. 

If you put the effort into recruitment and managing probation, and treat your staff fairly, you are far less likely to have issues with absenteeism and the abuse or medical certs to get out of working. Anyone who manages to get pas that and is abusing medical certs is likely to be falling short of performance expectations across the board and so you should address any disciplinary process about their ongoing failure rather than any one off event where they didn't show up while a medical cert was in effect.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> you should address any disciplinary process about their ongoing failure rather than any one off event where they didn't show up while a medical cert was in effect.



In theory, you are correct. 

In practice, it's quite hard for get rid of someone for underperformance.   It's hard to measure and is often subjective. 

Showing up at the races while on a sick cert is factual.  It might not be a reason for firing someone, but it would be easier than firing them for underperformance. 

But as others have pointed out - this is not about the law. This is about career progression. 

Brendan


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## messyleo (18 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> In theory, you are correct.
> 
> In practice, it's quite hard for get rid of someone for underperformance.   It's hard to measure and is often subjective.
> 
> Showing up at the races while on a sick cert is factual.  It might not be a reason for firing someone, but it would be easier than firing them for underperformance.



Agree with this. You only need to read Labour court decisions to read how hard it is to dismiss somebody for underperformance. Chances are for the minority of underperformers who don't improve with a PIP or genuine supportive performance management help, it's an attitude problem and these are the same kind of individuals who can be very litigious. Disciplinary processes are tricky and any breakdown in the process or unfairness can undermine the whole thing, on top of many roles being hard to quantify performance in a fully objective and transparent way that can't be in any way challenged.


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## deanpark (18 Jul 2022)

gravitygirl said:


> Agree with this. You only need to read Labour court decisions to read how hard it is to dismiss somebody for underperformance. Chances are for the minority of underperformers who don't improve with a PIP or genuine supportive performance management help, it's an attitude problem and these are the same kind of individuals who can be very litigious. Disciplinary processes are tricky and any breakdown in the process or unfairness can undermine the whole thing, on top of many roles being hard to quantify performance in a fully objective and transparent way that can't be in any way challenged.


In fairness it works both ways. There are lots of companies/ organisations with cultures that stink to high heaven and lots of bullying or pressurising managers,  particularly in private sector. In fact I'd say for both phenomena in my experience this is rife.   Work can be unpleasant and theres no monopoly on good or bad behaviour.


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## messyleo (19 Jul 2022)

deanpark said:


> In fairness it works both ways. There are lots of companies/ organisations with cultures that stink to high heaven and lots of bullying or pressurising managers,  particularly in private sector. In fact I'd say for both phenomena in my experience this is rife.   Work can be unpleasant and theres no monopoly on good or bad behaviour.



Oh completely but I also think there is a difference between performance related issues and unacceptable behaviour (bullying & harassment etc). The latter is just never acceptable and that's that imo - it should be a given. 

Managers can also get a hard time from employees too and get bullied by getting constantly blamed or criticised for things way beyond their control and staff refusing to do normal tasks to block progress and make the manager look bad to their own manager. Managers are also just as liable to underperform as well. I am really making the point in general terms and it applies to any employee (management or otherwise) - dismissal for underperformance is incredibly difficult.


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## Leo (19 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> In practice, it's quite hard for get rid of someone for underperformance. It's hard to measure and is often subjective.


I've done it, it is difficult and time-consuming, but worth the effort. That was reinforced the first time I was through the process when others on the team opened up about being sick of carrying dead weight. 



Brendan Burgess said:


> Showing up at the races while on a sick cert is factual. It might not be a reason for firing someone, but it would be easier than firing them for underperformance.


I's factual, but you absolutely can not discipline someone for not showing up at work while on medical leave. 

We had a case where someone posted pictures on social media after completing a park run while on sick leave, HR wanted to action on that and sought legal advice, they were told not to touch it, and not to even mention that we were aware of it in case any future disciplinary procedure might be seen as tainted by it.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> That was reinforced the first time I was through the process when others on the team opened up about being sick of carrying dead weight.



I have fired two people in my life and both were fully supported by the rest of the team.  

But it's still a difficult and dangerous process for everyone. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> We had a case where someone posted pictures on social media after completing a park run while on sick leave, HR wanted to action on that and sought legal advice, they were told not to touch it, and not to even mention that we were aware of it in case any future disciplinary procedure might be seen as tainted by it.



That sounds like poor legal advice.  

There would be no harm in asking the person about it to show that you were aware of it. 

While it might taint a future disciplinary procedure, it could well help a future disciplinary procedure. 

Brendan


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## Leo (19 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> That sounds like poor legal advice.
> 
> There would be no harm in asking the person about it to show that you were aware of it.
> 
> ...


If you bring it up, they can use that to support a claim of being victimised in any future disciplinary action.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Jul 2022)

But if you don't bring it up, you would not be able to bring it up later. 

If you were in front of the WRC and they heard that someone had completed a park run while on sick leave, even if the law is clear, the human being hearing that would probably think that the employee was a chancer.

Brendan


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## ryaner (19 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But if you don't bring it up, you would not be able to bring it up later.
> 
> If you were in front of the WRC and they heard that someone had completed a park run while on sick leave, even if the law is clear, the human being hearing that would probably think that the employee was a chancer.
> 
> Brendan


It would really really depend on *WHY *they were off sick. Not all sickness is physical and there are many jobs where being mentally incapacitated, even slightly, you are just better not being there. Lots of different medications can cause that effect.


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## Deiseblue (19 Jul 2022)

Different times ,  I broke my wrist badly whilst playing football on a Saturday and after a sojourn in A & E  I duly turned up for work on the following Monday wearing a cast .
I was advised to absent myself from the office , for Health and safety reasons,  until the cast came off which due to the complexity of the break took 3 months and a number of replacement casts.
Apparently the reason for being sidelined was that in the event of a fire I would find it difficult to make my out of the building whilst handicapped by my injury.
I really enjoyed that summer !


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## Salvadore (19 Jul 2022)

ryaner said:


> It would really really depend on *WHY *they were off sick. Not all sickness is physical and there are many jobs where being mentally incapacitated, even slightly, you are just better not being there. Lots of different medications can cause that effect.


That’s really the point. It’s the relationship between the nature of the illness and the work that can’t be done because of it that matters.

There’s nothing wrong per se in monitoring publicly-available social media to support disciplinary action but it needs to provide usable evidence.

If you’re out with say a chest infection and you’re pictured doing the Hokey Cokey outside copper’s, you don’t really have much of a defence if you get your collar felt on your return.

On the other hand, if you’re out with stress and you’re pictured in say a restaurant, it might be harder to support the accusation that someone is swinging the lead.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Jul 2022)

Salvadore said:


> If you’re out with say a chest infection





Salvadore said:


> On the other hand, if you’re out with stress



But that is one of the points which has been made here - the doctor does not specify the illness on the cert. and apparently the employer is not allowed to ask. 

So don't tell your employer what is wrong with you and then there will be no restrictions at all on what you can do during your sick leave.

Brendan


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## Gordon Gekko (20 Jul 2022)

There are two main aspects to this though:

1) The legal position

2) The practical position

Legally, it appears that I can’t fire someone for doing what the OP has done, although I’d question that, as in the UK case law a guy was fired on the basis of dishonesty for going to the pub while on sick leave. He won his case, but that seems to have been on the basis of the process and the documentation not being up to scratch.

The second is the ‘real world’ position. Something like this is a major black mark against the person, and is likely to cost them in terms of promotion and pay over the longer-term. Such behaviour comes across as dishonest, lazy, uncommitted, and brazen. It would depend on the broader picture, but it sounds like a recipe to manage the person out.


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## T McGibney (20 Jul 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> ..., as in the UK case law a guy was fired on the basis of dishonesty for going to the pub while on sick leave. He won his case, but that seems to have been on the basis of the process and the documentation not being up to scratch.


In any situation where someone is sacked on a presumption of dishonesty because they went to a pub, you can take it as a given that the process was compromised as there is only a subjective and tenuous connection between going to the pub and being dishonest.

I agree with your wider point.


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## Leo (20 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> But if you don't bring it up, you would not be able to bring it up later.
> 
> If you were in front of the WRC and they heard that someone had completed a park run while on sick leave, even if the law is clear, the human being hearing that would probably think that the employee was a chancer.
> 
> Brendan


Exactly. you should never bring up someone not showing up to work while on medical leave at any stage. It's a clear own-goal unless you have medical evidence that they were fit to work at the time. Good luck getting a doctor to provide that after the fact based on speculation. 

The WRC know they're not in a position to second guess the doctor's advice. That's not their role, and they focus on the fairness of the procedures and evidence presented. Medical certs never go into full details of the condition or the reason that someone was certified as unfit to work, and so the WRC can't assume that they were fit in the absence of conflicting medical evidence. 

Perhaps exercise was recommended as part of their recuperation and recovery, and so completing a park run might be perfectly reasonable. The nature of most people's work is not directly comparable to completing a run, and so simply completing such an event isn't evidence they are fit to perform their duties to the full. 

We've had a few cases over the years where we had suspicions or where people were moving from short term illness to our long-term cover, and referred staff to the company doctor for assessment. In those cases the company doctor would only ever state whether they were fit to work at time of assessment, and not retrospectively.


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## Purple (21 Jul 2022)

@twofor1, this thread seems to be about the difference between what's right and what's legal.
Legally you can go to the races while on sick leave but it's not the right thing to do and reflects badly on your character and integrity so don't be upset if you are judged accordingly if you are spotted there.


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