# Lost/misplaced declaration of identity



## Caveat (5 Aug 2009)

Hi

We own a small plot of land adjacent to the 'natural' boundary of our garden. This 'extra' plot was referred to on the above mentioned declaration (not sure of exact title of document).

Anyway, I can't find the thing. 

I'm 90% certain that our solicitor was given this during the course of the house purchase and has it on file but he says no. 

As the remainder of the field is currently for sale there is a chance that our section may prove to be contentious - there are no boundary markings. 

Overall field (including our section) is currently used for grazing - which we have no issue with. In fact we prefer it - saves us cutting the grass. Our septic tank is there which is our only practical interest in the plot - we have not needed to empty tank yet.

Spoke to the engineering firm who provided the 'declaration' but the actual engineer has moved on (who I think would have been helpful) and there's nothing they can do.

Question is this - do we have any options here other than getting another survey done?


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## woodbine (5 Aug 2009)

would land registry have these details Caveat?

or could you try to track down that engineer through professional associations?


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## nuac (5 Aug 2009)

You say the field including the portion you consider you own is "used for grazing".    Somebody may be establishing possessory title there.

See your solicitor.


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## mf1 (5 Aug 2009)

When you "bought" it,  you may either have "bought" it or you may have been granted rights over it. Where are your deeds? What does your Contract say? 

As a starting point, I suggest you might ( shortly) stake out the site you believe to be yours. Before doing that , you might ask the vendor (politely !) what exactly is being sold and what their understanding is of your "ownership" or "rights over" the land where your septic tank is. 

Finally, you should look at the Requisitions on Title ( Number 44) which will indicate what documents were to be handed over at completion. You could also go back to your vendors ( depending on when you bought the property) and see do they have a copy. Thats a bit of an outside chance as most vendors ( and their solicitors) will bin stuff once they have disposed of their interest. 

mf


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## Caveat (5 Aug 2009)

Thanks for replies.



woodbine said:


> would land registry have these details Caveat?


 
I don't think so - not yet. When I asked solicitor about the document (which he claims not to have and which I'm almost sure he does have) he said that he will need it for submission to land registry and will be asking for it - but hasn't done so yet - 2 years later. 

House bought 3 years ago this month by the way. 



> or could you try to track down that engineer through professional associations?


 
Maybe worth a try as they were helpful at the time but not sure if they could be much help now though.



nuac said:


> You say the field including the portion you consider you own is "used for grazing". *Somebody may be establishing possessory title there.*
> 
> See your solicitor.


 
Since 2006? Not sure I understand - it's our land. It's just that at the moment, we can't prove it.



mf1 said:


> When you "bought" it, you may either have "bought" it or you may have been granted rights over it. Where are your deeds? What does your Contract say?


 
It is my understanding that we bought the house/land plain and simple. Map refers to plots etc and DOI refers with interpretation of measurements. It's only the DOI that we don't have, should measurements be disputed.



> As a starting point, I suggest you might ( shortly) stake out the site you believe to be yours. Before doing that , you might ask the vendor (politely !) what exactly is being sold and what their understanding is of your "ownership" or "rights over" the land where your septic tank is.


 
Can't stake out site without measurements on DOI but yes, might speak to the vendor and see what their position is.



> Finally, you should look at the *Requisitions on Title ( Number 44)* which will indicate what documents were to be handed over at completion. You could also go back to your vendors ( depending on when you bought the property) and see do they have a copy. Thats a bit of an outside chance as most vendors ( and their solicitors) will bin stuff once they have disposed of their interest.


 
Is Req. on title simply part of the overall contract? I'll have a look.


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## mf1 (5 Aug 2009)

Its all very confusing. 

I'm not sure what you bought. Do you know is the title registered title  ( as in in the Land Registry) or unregistered title - not yet registered in the Land Registry or some combination of the above? 

If there was any issue with the purchase, you should have been made very much aware of it. Is there any possibility that the people from whom you bought did not actually have title to the entire property and sold you such interest as they had? Are the current vendors of the rest of the field the same people that sold to you? If yes, would'nt they be clear about what was left? 

mf


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## Caveat (5 Aug 2009)

Hi mf1

The transaction was odd, yes.

When we bought the house the accompanying map(s) actually referred to 3 plots. 2 of these plots were contained within the treelined 'obvious physical boundary' of the house/land so there was no issue of interpretation. The other plot was bordering on but adjacent to one of the plots and is contained within the adjacent field - and our septic tank is contained within. The engineers were required to interpret the map/measurements of this plot and therefore provide this declaration so that we can stake out etc as and when required.

We didn't feel a need to do this as we have been more than happy to have cows grazing there. 

Although now that the land in the remainder of this field is for sale I feel boundary issues may arise, but as I said - no DOI to be found.

I don't think the farmer who is grazing is the owner and the estate agent is not the agent we bought from. However, I think (but will have to confirm) that the owner of the rest of the field may be the previous owner of our house. If so, this may simplify things - or it may even complicate them.

When I first asked our solicitor about this in 2007 he replied (quote):

_have had a look back at your sale file and I do not hold the declaration of identity from XXX Engineering. _

_Your dealing in the land registry is not yet complete and it may be some time before I am ready to file your title deeds with your building society _

_I will require the declaration of identity at that point in time to keep with the rest of the title documents_ 

Have heard no more since.

At the end of the day the easy solution is to simply get another DOI done but if possible, I would prefer not to.

mf1 - in your (professional, I believe) opinion should we be concerned - do you get the idea there is something untoward going on?

Hope I have been fairly clear.


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## Kate10 (5 Aug 2009)

Hi Caveat,

I don't think things are as bad as you think they are.

Firstly, the DOI, while important, is a bit of a red herring.  The document that operates to transfer ownership of the land to you is the Deed of Transfer.   This deed identifies in words, and often by reference to maps, what land is transferred to you.  It seems from your solicitor's letter that your Deed of Transfer has already been lodged with the land registry.  This means that the Deed should be complete and should identify all three plots of land.  Your solicitor should have kept a copy of this Deed on the file when he submitted the original for registration.  Even if he did not, you can get a copy of the original from the Land Registry.  Why not call him and ask him if he has a copy of the Deed?  Assuming that this document was correctly drafted and assuming maps of the three plots are attached (as they almost certainly would have had to be) your engineer should be able to stake out the third plot by reference to the Deed of Transfer.

The DOI may be important from a general title perspective and you may need to have your engineer re-draft it so that it can be sent back to the bank when your dealing in the Land Reg completes.  But the most important doc by far is your Deed of Transfer.

By the way, it is not at all unusual for a dealing to take more than 2 years to complete in the Land Reg.  I had a dealing complete this morning that I lodged 3.5 years ago and it was entirely straight forward.

Best of luck sorting everything out!

Kate.


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## Caveat (5 Aug 2009)

Thanks for the input/reassurance Kate.


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## nuac (5 Aug 2009)

If I were you would be concerned re person whose cattle are grazing this land.   He may well claim to have been in occupation long before 2006.    Possessory title to land may be claimed after 12 years occupation.   

Talk to your solicitor about it


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