# State or Private Secondary Education?



## elainem (24 Feb 2013)

Hi! I'm at the stage of paying deposits for Secondary Schools, starting 2014.

Most people in our Church go private. I could afford it, but it would be a real stretch - two children. 

I went to a State school as a child and then to a priate one for 5th and 6th. I enjoyed the private school as it was a more relaxed atmosphere, but the exam results were very poor. I did well as I was always a swot. There wasn't an emphasis on results in the school at the time - it was outside Dublin. I also never made the same quality of friends there as I had in the State school - I still keep in touch with them. I also saw that a l of the poorer kids who couldn't keep up with the well-off kids were looked down upon, and in one or two cases, sort of ostracised.

I have one really bright child and one average child. Those in my social circle and church circle are shocked that I am not totally dedicated to the private education route - even though I was privately educated for part of secondary school, private education does not really match my own personal values. 

I would really welcome advice/comments on this issue as I have been requested by two of the schools to forward the deposit e750 and e500 within the next two weeks!

I won't name the private schools, but the State schools we have our names down for are Colaiste Ciaran, Leixlip, and St. Joespeh's College Lucan.

Thanks.


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## Dr.Debt (24 Feb 2013)

We are very much in the same situation as yourself. Two children in primary school, the 1st of which will enter secondary school in 2014.

All the neighbours children are attending a very prominent private secondary school with an excellent local reputation.

There is also a very good non fee paying school some distance away which would also be a good option.

The fees for the private school are a definite consideration but not a deal breaker.

The fee paying school is a tried and tested formula, great sports ethos, excellent academic results and a positive upbeat atmosphere all round.

The non fee paying school has mixed reports. Some people appear well pleased with it and other are more critical.

The safe option seems to be the private school but we haven't had to make a final decision yet and would also love to know other peoples views on this.

The private school is a boys only catholic school. The state school is a co-ed, Church of Ireland managed school.


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## elainem (24 Feb 2013)

*State or priate education*

Hi! DrDebt, thanks for your reply. If we had stayed on the North Side, one of the state schools would have been CofI.

It's a huge dilemma. Two friends of mine who are retired teachers, say that children who go to private schools go to grind schools just as much as children who go to State schools. Further, that the fees for private schools are just the begining. 

For me, the work and achievement ethic would be very important, particularly for one of my children who is exceptionally bright - though if I do private for one, I couldn't not do it for the other.

Yet, the private secondary I went to down the country did not have a great work/achievement ethic, but the whole attitude of the school help to broaden my mind/outlook.

It's a dificult and important decision. I'm glad I'm not the only one facing these dilemmas!


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## Jim2007 (24 Feb 2013)

Out of interest, do you think anyone who is paying for a private school would ever admit to it not being up to the mark?

I would be going for the state school and using the money saved on fees for grinds when and if necessary.


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## STEINER (24 Feb 2013)

elainem said:


> Hi! I'm at the stage of paying deposits for Secondary Schools, starting 2014.
> 
> Most people in our Church go private. I could afford it, but it would be a real stretch - two children.
> 
> ...



I highlighted what I thought was very important in your post.

 I went to a state Roman Catholic school in my hometown, did my Leaving Cert and went to third level.  There was no way my parents would have been able to fund my education in a private school.  I was bright as a kid and never felt that I lost out by not having the private route. I think my teachers were very good. Your kids are average and bright.  In a good state school, your kids will do well academically, assuming they do the study.

You have to make a choice.  If you won the lotto and had no money worries, would you enroll them in state or private?


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## elainem (25 Feb 2013)

*State or priate education?*

Hi! Steiner, if I won the lotto tomorrow, I would still prefer to enroll in a State school.

Though I loved the atmosphere and general attitude of the private school I went to (a very well known one!) down the country for 5th and 6th year, I absolutely abhorred the snobbery, and the way some of the very rich kids looked down on the children who were quite poor, e.g. how they looked down on the Baptitst's Minister's daughter, and the fisherman's daughter because they could not afford the designer clothes/labels and foreign holidays that the rest of them could afford - there were some very well-known names in the school.

More recently, my own daughter swims competitiely and does training in a particular pool in Dublin. All the other five girls who train with her are from a very presitgious private primary school in Dublin - all in 5th/6th class. Apart from the fact that they have gone to the nth degree to exclude and ignore my daughter, and to make the training difficult for her, e.g. kicking her (quite badly into her back/kidneys) and pushing her off course, so that she won't beat them in time (she's a fab swimmer!),  I find the attitude of these children quite overbearing. Recently, during mid-term, my daughter heard them saying that they were so bored going away on holidays all the time, and wanted to stay at home for a change - they live in a different world! It's a world that I am not sure I would like my daughter or son to be part of, even if I money was no object. I want my children to appreciate what they get in life and to appreciate and care for others who might not be as well off as them, to be kind, compassionate etcl.


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## terrysgirl33 (25 Feb 2013)

Hi Elaine, it sounds like you have answered your own question!  My oldest child is in 3rd class, and the parents are having these discussions over (and over and over) again.  I can't offer any advice, I'm just watching with interest.  In our case, with three children, I don't think a fee paying school is an option, but there are a number of state secondary schools.


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## Bronte (25 Feb 2013)

elainem said:


> . kicking her (quite badly into her back/kidneys) and pushing her off course, so that she won't beat them in time.


 
That's quite shocking behavior.  

You should pick the school that best suits you, go with your gut instinct, and don't worry about what those in your social circle think.


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## BOXtheFOX (25 Feb 2013)

My children went to the local non fee paying school. All ended up with college degrees, Ph.D etc. They are also pretty streetwise. I don't think that I would do things any differently on reflection.


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## TarfHead (25 Feb 2013)

I get the impression that the principal draw to the fee-paying school is social, i.e. it's what your social and Church communities expect, it's where some/all/many of you child's friends will be going.

That's a strong draw and, if the fees can be handled, then there's a lot to be said about making that choice.

Your experience of a fee-paying school was in, I assume, one different to the one available to your children ? Given the choice in front of you, it is important that you seek feedback for contemporary experiences of it.

My late mother-in-law attended a well-known shool in Dublin City Centre and had a very unhappy time. My wife has said, on more than one occasion, that that school was not an option for our daughter, based on her mother's experience over 60 years ago !

Class size, school ethos, extra-curricular activities, number of classmates from primary school going too, are all things to be considered in this choice.

Good luck with whatever choice you make. We've been through something similar and won't know 'til 2019 if it was the right choice or not  !


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## ice (25 Feb 2013)

I think you have to ask ' what does private education give (if anything) that state education doesn't '
Some people have an impression private school is 'better' but when you ask them why they can't articulate it. Many state schools have excellent teachers, send a high percentage to college and have great sports facilities. All the things those who favour private schools say they send their kids for.
People don't like to admit it but a lot choose private school so their kids can mix with the right 'sort' and for the connections they can make there.


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## ontour (25 Feb 2013)

Trying to make broad generalisations regarding whether private schools are better that public schools is like asking whether the northside is better than the southside.

When looking at schools to consider for your child, the private school has the additional consideration of whether you can afford it.  After you have identified the collection of schools that you can choose from it is about finding the best fit for your child.  One child will be much happier and perform better in a specific public school while another child will be happier and more productive in the private school.  You have to look at factors such as the distance to the school, subjects offered, extra curricular activities, sports etc.

If the government continue their current approach to the funding of private schools, it is likely that a number will become public in the coming years.


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## margaret1 (25 Feb 2013)

Choosing any secondary school is a huge decision for any parent and I do feel it needs to be a decision the young person in particular has an input into and is happy with the final decision. The best advice we received was to just choose one of the schools as if thats it, no going back, and sleep on the decision, if it feels right in the morning for you all then go for it, if not then do the same process with the next school. No school will offer everything so you will have the choose the things you are happiest with,and the most important element is that the young person has an oppertunity to grow & develope as an individual & completes secondary education as a well rounded confident young adult ready to deal with all lifes excitements & challanges. The secondary school years may be the last 6 yrs you will have with your daughters living at home before they hard off to college and they do need to be really happy years, your heart will guide you right in the end.


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## Thirsty (26 Feb 2013)

> what does private education give (if anything) that state education doesn't


To answer this question, in my view, it gives the fee-paying school the ability to remove the anti-social / disturbed / uninterested students and prevent them from disrupting those students who want to work and get an education.

The single biggest problem facing state schools (again personal opinion) is that they find it almost impossible to remove students who are consistently making their teachers and fellow students lives a misery due to their appalling behaviour.

We make a huge deal about the rights to education for young people (quite rightly); but we completely fail to see that all rights also carry the same level of responsibilities.


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## dereko1969 (26 Feb 2013)

Thirsty said:


> To answer this question, in my view, it gives the fee-paying school the ability to remove the anti-social / disturbed / uninterested students and prevent them from disrupting those students who want to work and get an education.
> 
> The single biggest problem facing state schools (again personal opinion) is that they find it almost impossible to remove students who are consistently making their teachers and fellow students lives a misery due to their appalling behaviour.
> 
> We make a huge deal about the rights to education for young people (quite rightly); but we completely fail to see that all rights also carry the same level of responsibilities.


 
Whilst this may be true in some cases, it's not in all. The fact that the parents have paid a large sum of money so that their child can go to the school sometimes gives them more "rights" (in their mind) than someone who has been accepted on the basis of their address. 

A friend of mine who taught in St Michaels found that there were a similar number of disruptive kids there than in other schools and getting rid of them was just as difficult.

I find it odd that the OP is willing to name the state schools but not the private schools. I would presume King's Hospital would be one of the private options given the location of the state schools, heard very mixed things about it.


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## Thirsty (27 Feb 2013)

> getting rid of them was just as difficult


Moving out a disruptive pupil in state school is nigh on impossible.  Moving out a disruptive pupil in a fee-paying school can be (and is) done quite frequently.



> heard very mixed things about it.


Pretty sure the same can be said of every school in the country.


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## Marion (27 Feb 2013)

Down the country there are not too many private schools close to state schools.

It's a long time since I have have been in the secondary school system, so I will not relay my experience.

However, all of my Irish nieces have gone to my non-fee paying school and the last Three had 600 points plus each. Others were 545 plus students.

It's not necessary to spend money to achieve results. If your children are bright they will do well in most schools.

Spend the money saved on Drama, elocution, music, Dance and on family time.

Marion


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## thedaras (27 Feb 2013)

All I can say is OMG!
That would never happen if all those kids were from a public school!
I'd bet if your child just mixed with public school kids,he /she would never be subjected to any kind of bullying/discrimination or be physically abused!

I could never imagine a situation where kids from a public school would single out someone from a private school..no way..unheard of,the parents wouldn't allow such behaviour,and of course their parents will be the only ones wanting them to be considerate and be kind to those who have less than them,( do they change their morals if someone has more than them.?)

I presume that these private school kids have been expelled from the swimming pool,based on bullying and physical abuse,or did their parents buy their way out of that too.?

Kids are bullied.
No matter where they come from.
Kids are good and bold no matter where they come from.
The standards/morals of the parents play a huge part as does the child's peers and the general milue in which they live.

But I think it's clear that those who attend private schools are,rich,posh,spoiled,snobs,lack compassion,have no morals,have ridiculous aspirations,go on too many holidays,live in a different world and one would wonder if they actually have feelings ,if they are capable of getting any job without daddy's help,if they didn't get grinds sure they are too thick too get into college.
Then to really wreck our heads,they go on to earn a living,mainly being overpaid,and knowing whose who,they nauseatingly seem to gather on dublins southside,and eww go to such nasty university's as Trinity and UCD.
Honestly they will probably end up driving such horrible cars like BMWs and Mercs.
Then of course while they do nothing to earn their degree,get into daddy's business ,be all round nasty to anyone who doesn't have as much money as them,they have the nerve to moan about paying for their child's education,and how much tax they contribute to society..really.

It gets worse,they get on a career ladder and make all the same mistakes again with their own children! How can they be so foolish as to want to repeat the mistakes their own parents made! all the while making sure their kids dont mix with pesky public school kids..
Then to add insult to injury,they have some nerve to want their kids to get a job,be happy,be considerate and compassionate,contribute to society,have high aspirations,be good at sports,be an all round good kid,now come on,that can't be right!
Hmmm..some people will never learn.
My tongue has to be painfully extracted from my cheek.
Oh did I mention ,that some of them even manage to match the public school kids results by getting 600 points..makes me sick.


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## Ceist Beag (27 Feb 2013)

Marion said:


> It's not necessary to spend money to achieve results. If your children are bright they will do well in most schools.
> 
> Spend the money saved on Drama, elocution, music, Dance and on family time.
> 
> Marion


I think this is the best advice on the thread, completely agree with Marion here.



thedaras said:


> <snip>
> quite a paranoid rant
> </snip>


As this was posted at 1am I presume there was some alcohol consumed before you posted this thedaras!


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## Bronte (27 Feb 2013)

Ceist Beag said:


> I
> As this was posted at 1am I presume there was some alcohol consumed before you posted this thedaras!


 
I'm not so sure as thedaras went back to fix the spelling !


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## Thirsty (27 Feb 2013)

> it's not necessary to spend money to achieve results. ......spend the money saved on drama, elocution, music, dance....


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## Purple (27 Feb 2013)

Bronte said:


> I'm not so sure as thedaras went back to fix the spelling !





Ceist Beag said:


> As this was posted at 1am I presume there was some alcohol consumed before you posted this thedaras!



I thought it was funny and cutting at the same time.
I find the inverted snobbery about private schools amazing.


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## Firefly (27 Feb 2013)

Purple said:


> I find the inverted snobbery about private schools amazing.



How do you mean?


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## Purple (27 Feb 2013)

Firefly said:


> How do you mean?




The people I know who went to private schools are no more or less pampered, snobbish or uncaring than the people who went to public schools (like I did). Many people seem to think a stereotype can be applied to kids/people who go to private schools which, if applied to another group on the basis of colour or religion would be blatantly racist or bigoted. Just as everyone from Tallaght isn’t a “skanger”, a criminal and a drug dealer, everyone who goes to Blackrock College (or any other private school) isn’t Ross O’Carroll Kelly or some self absorbed snob.


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