# Benefits of house versus apartment?



## pingin (3 May 2012)

Talked to B of I last week about a mortgage. They're willing to give me the funds but at a high price. I'm 51, with a state job. The longest term they'll consider is 15 years, although they might go to 17 years. For a €200,000 mortgage I would have to pay €1300–€1500 per month (exclusive of insurance and other costs). That's more than half my monthly income. After other living expenses were taken out, I'd have very little to live on.

The other choice is to go for an apartment, something which I vowed I'd never do. While they're a good deal cheaper than some houses, I have this image of them as being small and pokey, badly built and with no sound proofing (but maybe that's just the modern ones!). I play a musical instrument, so not annoying the neighbours would be a big consideration.

My question is this: is it possible to buy an apartment in Dublin that's relatively spacious and comfortable, well built and properly sound-proofed and insulated? Would a duplex be different again? I'd like to stay on the south side of the city, within easy reach of the city centre. Price range €150,000 or less.


----------



## truthseeker (3 May 2012)

I live in an apartment in south dublin thats relatively spacious, comfortable, within reasonable reach of the city centre and price would be 150,000 or less.

So in theory - yes, its possible.

We do have some issues with noise. Its mostly a case of being sensible. Two of my neighbours play musical instruments, I never hear them tbh, but neither would continue playing loudly after 10pm because they have sense.
We have had problems with neighbours who have had parties with the noise of music, drunken behaviour, running feet on wooden floors and screaming at the tops of their lungs at 4am - this is not reasonable behaviour, apartment or house.
An neighbour above me used to drive me demented with his techno music pumping through the ceiling - I spoke to him, he put a cushion under his speakers and I never heard him again.

The main issue is vibration through the concrete. You cant hear peoples tvs, unless they are mounted next to vents or on walls, you cant hear musical instruments usually, you cant hear voices, but you can hear speakers mounted on walls or floors, running feet on floorboards and washing machines and dishwashers sometimes.

What is the nature of your musical instrument, if its a set of drums you might have an issue, or an electric guitar and amp etc... if its an acoustic instrument I cant see a problem tbh.

Its all a matter of consideration. You just have to be aware of the fact that other people live in the building. When I lived in a house I had to respect the neighbours too. Its just about having a bit of cop on.


----------



## pingin (3 May 2012)

Thanks truthseeker. I play an acoustic guitar. I always have an awareness of those around me and would never be noisy. I hate loud parties and drunken behaviour. Wouldn't mind dishwashers and the like but techno at four in the morning or people running up and down the hall would drive me insane. I live in a house at the moment with elderly neighbours on either side and it's so nice and quiet!


----------



## truthseeker (3 May 2012)

Id be the same as you pingin, like my peace and quiet.

The apartments Im in now have fully 'settled' if you know what I mean, there is very little movement and people are having families, not parties! But some are rented and there is always the risk that new renters will wreck the peace. The management company are helpful if the situation does arise. Earplugs are a must have for the very odd occasion that someone does have a loud party (I dont begrudge anyone an odd party every few months, its every weekend would do your head in).

For me the biggest disadvantage is the lack of a garden, an outdoor space to call my own. There is a communal garden area but its not private.

Parking can be an issue for guests, its not where I am, but it is something friends who live in other apartments have issues with.

A big advantage is general safety and lack of burglaries. You dont get break ins for car keys because its impossible to tell what car is whose, and because one person making noise in the middle of the night could wake a whole block AND the fact there are always people coming and going you dont tend to get break ins for robberies either. Although the car park does suffer some petty crime occasionally (smashed windows, stolen items from car boots etc..).

My techno music playing upstairs neighbour used to play acoustic guitar, I liked when he opened his window and played, Id open mine and listen, couldnt hear it otherwise.

Management fees are an issue to be aware of, depending on how expensive they are, could be off putting.

Also, there are no common areas where I live, not a block with elevators, corridors etc. All own front door, so I may not be aware of the problems of internal shared spaces.

Hope this helps.


----------



## pingin (3 May 2012)

That information is a great help.

The prospect of tenancies around you changing is a bit worrying, though, as you say, it's better in a 'settled' block.

Lack of a garden would be a big minus for me (I'm a countryman after all!) but that would be the price I'd have to pay.

Not too worried about parking for guests as long as my own car was safe! Would also need somewhere to put my bicycle. 

The security advantages are significant. I'd never thought about that before. As is your own front door. 

Years ago, I lived in a shared apartment on Hatch Street for a few months. It was a nice place but a very unfriendly environment. You'd meet your neighbours in the corridor but they'd just walk by without speaking. They didn't want to speak to anyone. It was totally lacking in any sense of community.


----------



## ryaner (3 May 2012)

pingin said:


> Not too worried about parking for guests as long as my own car was safe! Would also need somewhere to put my bicycle.


Inside the apartment is the only place that'll ever be safe. I've never heard of a bike last long in those communal locks in the garage.


----------



## thedaras (3 May 2012)

I have lived in both a house and an apartment.
People all over the world live happily in apartments for their whole lives.
For me, the apartment was fine,until child number one came along,then it was a nightmare( though there are many who bring up kids in apartments and do so without any issues).
Having the kids in a house with a back garden was significantly easier,as they could play in the garden,on the trampoline,swings slides etc.I could put a little blow up pool out during the summer which was great.I dont know if you have children or will have grandchildren but if you do ,it is worth taking that into account.
If you are into gardening,a house with garden would be great,anytime you have off work you can spend in the garden or the green house.Planting trees/flowers and watching them grow ,cutting the lawn,and sitting out on the rare day is a great advantage.
Of course you could stroll to a local park,but there is no comparison to having your own back garden.

I can see the advantage of an apartment in terms of security etc,but would think having a house with a garden would out weigh any advantage .
Another disadvantage of an apartment is that they are mainly young people,and smokers have a tendency to go out to the balcony and flick their fags over.When there are partys and there are a few smokers on the balcony, this can be annoying.
Even things like getting your clothes dry would be a hassle in an apartment.The turnover of tennants is greater too.
You could get just as much heartbreak about playing a guitar,in a house as an apartment,depends on how well insulated against noise they are.
In a semi detached house you have, in the main neighbours either side but in an apartment you may well have neighbours above ,below,across,and either side.



There is no guarantee that life will be without issues in a house,but for me, Id go for a house over an apartment every time.


----------



## pingin (3 May 2012)

My own first preference would be for a house, but it looks like I can't afford it now, much to my regret.

The question of children doesn't arise as I still haven't met that shapely young Swedish blonde and am unlikely to do so at this age and stage of baldness! Also, much to my regret.

I've always dreamt of having a garden, just to be able to go and potter or work in a shed.

The prospect of tenants changing about regularly would not be attractive either. A whole lot of minuses there, but, as I say, it's all down to a question of affordability for me now...


----------



## thedaras (3 May 2012)

Would you consider renting for a while more..dont rush into it anyway.


----------



## truthseeker (3 May 2012)

As thedaras has suggested, why dont you rent for a while. You could rent an apartment where you would be interested buying and see what you think of apartment living. 

The apartment I am in looks out on the countryside, the cows moo me to sleep some nights (and moo me awake when they having calves!).

There are also allotments right behind my apartment - I can look out my window at the farm they are on.

So - a lot of that makes up for the lack of a garden for me. Plus there is a small local park a ten minute walk down the road and Marlay Park is only a ten minute drive. I can and do sit out the back in the communal area but people are waking by with dogs and kids etc so its not private - I certainly wouldnt sit there in my bikini lol, nor would I leave things out while I went back inside like you can with a garden.

I keep my bike in the my own hallway, my husband keeps his there too.

Some of the neighbours are friendly, some arent. Same as anywhere I suppose. Renters do tend to be less friendly. The big snows a couple of winters ago did a lot for community spirit, as we all had to help each other dig cars out of the carpark and youd find your neighbour had swept away a path outside your door so youd do it for him next time.

Just down the road from where I live there is a development with small houses, I suppose they could be referred to as 'starter homes' that are about the same size and price as an apartment, but are houses. So theres that to think about as well?

I did have an occasion where the person above me thought it was fine to stand at his front window smoking and flicking the butts down, where they made a fine collection outside my front door. I went up and pointed it out to him - it stopped. You have to be prepared to speak up for yourself, and in a constructive manner, usually small hassles like flicked ciggie butts are just a person not thinking, as opposed to someone trying to be a pain.

I do look forward to living in a house again. Main reason, garden and privacy. Noise is not the biggest issue at all. I could do with more space too but there are two of us in the apartment and we're both readers and collectors of books.


----------



## ger49 (3 May 2012)

Hi Pingin,
I was in exactly same situation as you, but i havnt regretted YET buying a duplex. The duplex is over 15 years old, spacious and well built in good maintained small community.I rented it first for a period to see if i liked it and then bought. The management fees are balanced out if you are in good location within walking access to shops, buses etc.You are saving on using car, taxis etc.


----------



## Angus (3 May 2012)

Apartment/Duplex - Issues = Annual Maintenance, Car Parking, Noise, No Garden for Children, No control over who you meet in corridors +Common areas - maintenance, sharing, littering.

House = Extra expense


----------



## truthseeker (3 May 2012)

Angus, I disagree. 

My FIL lives in a house in a privately managed estate so he has management/maintenance fees. He also has massive issues with guest parking. He has shared bin sheds and landscaping that require maintenance.

Littering can happen no matter where you live, as can no control over who you meet on the street.


----------



## Bronte (3 May 2012)

Pingin why do you want to buy a property at all?


----------



## Angus (3 May 2012)

> Angus, I disagree.
> 
> My FIL lives in a house in a privately managed estate so he has management/maintenance fees. He also has massive issues with guest parking. He has shared bin sheds and landscaping that require maintenance.
> 
> Littering can happen no matter where you live, as can no control over who you meet on the street.



Agreed, but 





> privately managed estate


 has fees & shared sheds and areas so its a factor in making a decision


----------



## gipimann (3 May 2012)

The issue of "tenant churn" isn't confined to apartments either.   House next door to me is rented, and in the 7 years I've lived there, the tenancy has changed 4 times (and it's been vacant for a few months betwen tenancies too in latter years).   I understand from other neighbours that the tenants changed a couple of months before I moved in, which would make 5 changes in less than 8 years.

Mind you, in the first year after I moved in, 4 other houses in the cul-de-sac (19 houses) changed ownership too, so there was a lot of coming and going (not so much of that nowadays!).


----------



## pingin (3 May 2012)

All very relevant and pertinent points.

Bronte, you ask an important question: why do I want to buy a property? Having rented for the past fifteen years, I'd just like to own a place that I can shape to my own tastes. There's also so much uncertainty around renting in Ireland. You can be turfed out at a month's notice at the whim of a landlord if he/she takes a dislike to you or you make too many requests (not that that's happened to me). 

Also, there isn't any form of rent control or linking rent to the cost of living. I get the impression—and it may be a mistaken one—that the rental sector in mainland Europe is well regulated and controlled. People rent for a long number of years and have a sense of security. We don't have that here.

As for renting now and buying later, I feel that I'm under pressure, since the tax allowance for first-time buyers will be discontinued at the end of this year. That, plus the age factor...


----------



## STEINER (3 May 2012)

I live in a 3 bed 2nd/3rd floor duplex apartment, sharing a common area with one other duplex.
It is more spacious than my parents' small 3 bed terraced house or my MIL's 2 bed house.

Generally I don't have any noise issues, for example, I will hear guys next door in neighbouring sitting room cheering sometimes when a soccer goal is scored like monday's man city vs man utd, but its not terribly loud. I don't hear TV or conversations at all or kitchen noise etc

Have secure parking.  Sometimes it is a pain lugging in lots of groceries/shopping.

I would like a garden so perhaps I will move at some stage.

My immediate neighbour has 3 kids under 7 and they are renting for 2 years or so.  I don't know why they don't rent/buy a house with a garden, maybe the duplex works for them or perhaps the parents came from apartment living in their country of origin.


----------



## ryaner (3 May 2012)

pingin said:


> There's also so much uncertainty around renting in Ireland. You can be turfed out at a month's notice at the whim of a landlord if he/she takes a dislike to you or you make too many requests (not that that's happened to me).
> 
> Also, there isn't any form of rent control or linking rent to the cost of living. I get the impression—and it may be a mistaken one—that the rental sector in mainland Europe is well regulated and controlled. People rent for a long number of years and have a sense of security. We don't have that here.



There is Part 4 Tenancy which gives rights for 4 year cycles. It comes with its own set of downsides too.
As for rent control, rent should go up because of the increased costs to landlords, be that the tax changes or increased mortgage costs, but also down because of the rent relief reduction. It'd be hard to force any kind of longer term (and by that I mean 5+ years) onto anything given the costs are changing so rapidly of late.


----------



## Bronte (4 May 2012)

pingin said:


> As for renting now and buying later, I feel that I'm under pressure, since the tax allowance for first-time buyers will be discontinued at the end of this year.


 
That's an absolutely mad reason for buying. 

You discount renting giving reasons none of which have happened to you in the last 15 years?

People here on AAM are constantly saying there is a fear of eviction and all I can think of is a landlord I'm constantly worried about the fact that tenant's won't stay long term. 

How about thinking where you want to retire to, you could buy somewhere reasonable in the countryside, detached with it's own garden, you could go to it at weekends and continue to rent? There's plenty of good property out there now at reasonable prices, or try the outskirts of Dublin and see what's there. 

You mention stability on the continent and wanting to shape the place you want to.  The way it works here is that you basically can do what you want to the property but at the end of the lease you must return it to the state it was in when you rented.  And tenant is basically responsible for everything.  Irish tenant's are mollycoddled when you compare the two systems.  I've been landlord, owner and tenant in Ireland and tenant and owner on the continent.


----------



## oldnick (4 May 2012)

Pingin -it's unlikely you'll now get a house in fair condition,even a little one on the south-side within reasonable commuting distance of city-centre for your goal of under 150k - unless you are prepared to buy in certain areas that some people may not like. 

Crumlin, Dolphins Barn ,especially just south of the canal have some quite reasonable properties for under 150k and you could briskly walk to city-centre in 30 mins.
However, there's no denying that -despite genuine friendliness of the neighbours -  there are some social problems and there a low perception of the area.

Nobody can predict property prices  but  there doesn't seem to be that much gloom anymore about house prices in reasonable areas within  moderate commuting distances.  Even decent two-bedroomed apartments are no longer crashing in price.

If you do want a house would you consider renting out two bedrooms under the rent-a-room scheme whereby you can let for up to 10.000 euros tax-free It's a bloody good scheme if you're a bit short of monthly payments . And don't only think southside. Ballyfermot is a settled area close to town with really nice people =-I had a shop there for years and I think it's a great area for first-time buyers, even old ones like you.

Do tell us what you decide-but be prepared to raise your purchase price goal of under 150k.


----------



## tsuzmir (5 May 2012)

pingin said:


> My own first preference would be for a house, but it looks like I can't afford it now, much to my regret


then wait and buy a house when you're ready. why buy now something that you dont really, really want just because you get extra tax credit? there's so many apartments on the market right now, that you probably won't get a good price for it in few years when you finnally find that swedish chick, reproduce and want to buy a house
unless:
1. you are loaded and dont know what to do with the money 
2. you find really cool apartment and you'd want to stay there for good 
that's what i'd do anyway...


----------



## SarahMc (6 May 2012)

[broken link removed]

I've just finished a remarkably similar renovation, shopped around for everything, lots of stress, but it cost just a shade under €25k.


----------



## Jim2007 (6 May 2012)

I really would question the wisdom of taking on such a burden at your age and with say 15 years to retirement...

First there is the borrowing aspect, forget for a moment the crazy borrowing rules of the celtic tiger, prior to that and still to day in mainland Europe, a reasonable mortgage is considered to be between 2 and 3 times your annual salary and payments should not account for more that about 20% of your monthly net salary.  Based on the few figures you have provided that would suggest a reasonable amount for you to borrow would be somewhere around 100K...

Next there is the idea that the house will suit you for the rest of your live, which is not so - a house requires a lot of work and while you may enjoy doing it now, as you get older it will be come more a burden than anything else... I see it with both my parents and my parent-in-laws, it is no longer fun for them.

Which brings me to the next point, sinking so much in to a single asset at your stage is high risk - there is no real market right now, so you can't tell if you are buying at a reasonable price nor who it will be later if you need to dispose of it.

Another aspect to consider is the costs of running and maintaining a house.  Even if you are using only a few rooms, you'll still have to heat and maintain the whole house....

In your case I would strongly favor the European attitude - concentrate on building your savings for retirement and rent a property that is appropriate for your situation in life, then later switch to something else that suits you as you grow older...  it is the low risk option and ensures you will be able to enjoy your retirement rather than being concerned with financial worries.



pingin said:


> I get the impression—and it may be a mistaken one—that the rental sector in mainland Europe is well regulated and controlled. People rent for a long number of years and have a sense of security. We don't have that here.



Not really the case, there are some differences, but the main thing is that landlords want good tenants and once they find them they will try to hold on to them...  But it is still possible for them to get you out on one or two months notice.



pingin said:


> As for renting now and buying later, I feel that I'm under pressure, since the tax allowance for first-time buyers will be discontinued at the end of this year. That, plus the age factor...



This does not make any sense, because once the tax relief expires you will end having to pay more, so why all the rush to pay more????


----------



## amtc (7 May 2012)

I really feel I have the best of all - i have a duplex with a shared garden...love it


----------



## pingin (8 May 2012)

This topic got you all going!

I could rent for a while longer but the longer I wait, the higher still the repayments are going to be. Maybe that's the wrong way to look at it, as some of you have said.

There's a lot of psychology going on here. I feel as though I'm a 'failure' because most people I know own their own homes and I don't. Mind you, most of them are married and have two incomes.

There's a whole 'country' thing too, in that I've lived in houses with their own front doors and back gardens. I'd like to be able to potter and work in a shed. I want to be able to hang my pictures on the walls or paint the rooms any colour I wish.

I do want to go back to the country in five to ten years. I'm told I may even inherit a house there one day. That would end up actually being a burden if I already owned a property in Dublin.

Jim2007, you advise me to invest in my retirement. However, with good quality rental apartments costing €1000 and upwards p.m., there won't be much left for savings. I've seen a very nice apartment for €1000 near where I work but I don't know if that's good value or not.

Sarah, you've got a house full of character there and I'm sure you'll be very happy in it. You duplex sounds lovely too Amtc.

Sorry about all these random thoughts; it's just the way my brain is at the moment!


----------



## amtc (8 May 2012)

Thanks for the compliment - I know what you mean, I love the duplex because I have the own front door, painted inside how I want, 56 pictures on walls, have stairs, have outside space, but yet don't have the upkeep ( I have a tiny private bit but the rest is done by management company so I have the illusion of the outside, but have enough of a small space to grow herbs, pots etc.)


As I said to someone recently if I want to walk around naked in my own place, I can (not that I do!).


----------



## truthseeker (9 May 2012)

amtc said:


> As I said to someone recently if I want to walk around naked in my own place, I can (not that I do!).



And why not? Its something I miss from living in a ground floor apartment. My poor postman has caught sight of me in my knickers or worse on numerous occasions as Ive thought a quick dash inside would be safe!

However, ownership doesnt guarantee nakedness, I had total privacy in the place I rented before I bought, and walked around naked all the time.


----------



## Newbie! (9 May 2012)

oldnick said:


> Pingin -it's unlikely you'll now get a house in fair condition,even a little one on the south-side within reasonable commuting distance of city-centre for your goal of under 150k - unless you are prepared to buy in certain areas that some people may not like.
> 
> Crumlin, Dolphins Barn ,especially just south of the canal have some quite reasonable properties for under 150k and you could briskly walk to city-centre in 30 mins.
> However, there's no denying that -despite genuine friendliness of the neighbours - there are some social problems and there a low perception of the area.
> ...


 
We bought in one of those 'low perception' areas and nick is right. We have never had a minutes problem there and the kids are generally fine but the litter problem really irritates me. 

Anyway, in relation to buying, my checklist included, a place that was bright and sunny, one with my own front and back door, a clothes line, a bit of a garden to entertain people in summer and just a tiny bit more room than our previous one bedroom apartment had afforded us. In the end we bought a house but had the above items been available in a duplex or ground floor apartment, it would have been fine with me. I think just make a list of the things which are absoutely necessary for you and then look.


----------



## Firefly (9 May 2012)

truthseeker said:


> And why not? Its something I miss from living in a ground floor apartment. My poor postman has caught sight of me in my knickers or worse on numerous occasions as Ive thought a quick dash inside would be safe!
> 
> However, ownership doesnt guarantee nakedness, I had total privacy in the place I rented before I bought, and walked around naked all the time.


 
Do you have to bring every thread down to this level?


----------



## dubgem (13 May 2012)

Hi Pingin, I live in a 2 bedroom house in Lower Ballyfermot.  Although I paid vastly more for mine, you can get houses here for €150k and under now.  

At the time I was buying I also considered an apartment, but the reasons I went for a house were:

(1) I feel it's more secure as you're not at the mercy of neighbours propping the main door open for their party guests or whoever;
(2) you can't add a single square foot to an apartment but you can to a house; and 
(3) you don't have to pay management fees with a house.

Also, I have a 45 foot long garden that faces south and gets amazing sun.

As another poster mentioned, the areas in your price range may not be your first choice. TBH Ballyfermot would not have been my first choice at the time either, but having been here for 4 years now I love the place - it's friendly, safe, a nice age mix of residents, well settled, all the facilities you could want and still close to town.  You definitely find what you're looking for if you cast your net a bit wider than the areas you're currently looking at.


----------



## pingin (13 May 2012)

Thanks for that dubgem. I think I need to start pulling down some of my psychological barriers and to consider other areas.


----------



## dubgem (14 May 2012)

oldnick said:


> And don't only think southside. Ballyfermot is a settled area close to town with really nice people



Er, Ballyfermot is on the soutside!


----------



## dubgem (14 May 2012)

pingin said:


> Thanks for that dubgem. I think I need to start pulling down some of my psychological barriers and to consider other areas.



I think you'll find it's a positive rather than a step-down, a lot of older areas have out-of-date bad reputations, while newer areas have some problems that haven't had time to be aired yet (although I'm sure they'll settle down with time). Either way, do your research.  I asked a lot of questions on forums such as this (although I got a lot of information that turned out, in retrospect, to be out of date and overly negative, so be judicious).

Best of of luck anyway, I'm sure when you find the home for you you'll recognise it


----------



## JohnJay (17 Jun 2012)

dont forget the management company fees if you buy an apartment. I was paying over 1400 per year where I had my old apartment. thats almost 120 per month. To make it wose they were a pain to deal with, always had money issues and were almost struck off by the companies office for not filing accounts. 

I now own and live in a 100 year old house. I have my own roof and am not worried that my management company will go burst and leave me without essential services! 

With regards areas - I am living in Kilmainham and I love it to bits. And a few properties around here for the 150k mark.


----------

