# Good books for shares and stocks



## miller (20 Feb 2007)

i am new to the site and i'm looking for some guidance on shares and stocks. i was intending on attending the ticn course but now that i have been on the forum i am recosidering. so i would like to know of some good books or courses that might get me started or at least help me make an informed decision.

thank you for your help.


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## ClubMan (20 Feb 2007)

Do a search for existing threads on books about investment. It's also worth starting with the _AAM _and _IFSRA _guides to savings & investments linked from the key posts section in the Savings & Investments forum.



Moved from  .


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## gearoid (20 Feb 2007)

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=34876


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## Mizen Head (25 Feb 2007)

I have been on this course. Its excellent. Much better than the ticn deal.
www.investlikethebest.com


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## ClubMan (26 Feb 2007)

Why exactly do you consider this course to be excellent?
Do you have any vested interest?


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## Mizen Head (3 Mar 2007)

Hi Clubman,
Of course, I do NOT have a vested interested,( I would have declared it if I had). I have been on the ILTB course, have used the strategies presented  and had good sucess. 

The strategies presented are well tested and they do not involve day-trading but rather a one year strategy with blue chip companies. 

In spite of falls in recent days I am up on the stocks I bought in October.

Good Luck


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## gearoid (3 Mar 2007)

Just think how many excellent books you could get for the 585 euros or whatever the latest cost of the investlikethebest course is! Surely one day is not going to provide you with anything other than a brief overview of investing and this man's investment strategy. Also you would need to invest almost 60,000 euros for this course to be under 1% of your future profits (if any) gone. I must admit I know little about the course but I'd rather buy a few hundred euros worth of books and a nice chair for reading in for the same price. Then join an investment club perhaps ...


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## smiley (4 Mar 2007)

wow thats expensive!

Read the following two books and you will do well..

'the intelligent investor' by Benjamin Graham

'One up on wall street' by Peter Lynch

good luck...


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## charttrader (5 Mar 2007)

_I__n spite of falls in recent days I am up on the stocks I bought in October._

Markets are still trading higher than they were in October, so that's not surprising.

_Just think how many excellent books you could get for the 585 euros or whatever the latest cost of the investlikethebest course is!

_Eh, 850 euro now...

Some quotes from the iltb website (italics).
_ILTB will show you how to open a stock broking account either with a
traditional or on-line broker...The differences between dealing through a traditional or on-line broker are also taught on the one-day seminar

_Fantastic.  You really need to pay money for info like that.

_Our 1-Day Seminar will teach you:Stock market terminology - the nuts and bolts of the industry explained.

_Try investopedia or even wikipedia. 

_How you can get the power of compounding to work for you. 

_The magic of compound interest?  Weren't we taught this in primary school?

_The benefits of averaging into the market so you do not commit all your resources near an interim or long-term peak.

_Wow, that's mind-blowing.

_We Demystify the Stock Markets!

_Beware of salesmen and exclamation marks.


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## gearoid (5 Mar 2007)

Excellent post Charttrader!
I must say I was dumbfounded that people were willing to pay that kind of money for one day... As you say wikipedia, or for the non-internet based, the business section of the local library and you'll find out lots about the ideas of compounding and pound cost averaging. 

I hadn't managed to ferret out the curriculum.

Looks like money for old rope.

Regards,
Gearoid.


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## Rory Gillen (7 Mar 2007)

*Re: Invest Like the Best*

I have read the points made on this site in the past about ILTB (Invest Like the Best), the Irish-based stock market training company I myself established in 2005. Rarely have I had the time to reply. But I find myself with some time today.

It is understandable that people will ask whether one should 'pay the price' for ILTB's 1-day seminar, which by the way is €695 and not €600, although two people booking together can get it for the latter figure. I would just point out that ILTB runs Free Workshops in Dublin and outside, and for those who are curious you will get to meet myself and hear what our 1-day seminar has to offer before commiting a penny. You can't lose by listening for an hour. Few of us can learn in a vacuum and I myself am eternally grateful for the great investment books written. From those books, I have distilled several 'time-tested' approaches to investing in the stock markets - UK, US & Irish - that any one can follow. 

Everyone has their own point of view - some believe you can learn from a book but the truth is few can. Human nature is to learn by experiencing and doing. I freely admit ILTB is not focused on traders (although someone who wants to trade the markets can learn an enormous amount from us). For investors, I can shorten the learning curve by years. But the best way to find out about ILTB for yourself is to go along to one of the workshops. Mizen Head and others has given positive feedback, which should not be dismissed so quickly. ILTB's seminar is the only stock market seminar on offer in Ireland that has gained industry validation by way of approval from the Institute of Chartered Accountants, Eagle Star & FBD Insurances. One does not get such validation easily. 

Finally, to respond to Charttrader, Smiley, Gearoid, Miller and Clubman and others who constantly dismiss what we offer....I invite you all to a Free Workshop!!! Be open minded..it's how we learn. You and anyone else who has an interest can book yourself on to one of the many workshops we run at www.investlikethebest.com . I will assure you of one thing - we are the same side..trying to make investing easier.


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## charttrader (7 Mar 2007)

_It is understandable that people will ask whether one should 'pay the price' for ILTB's 1-day seminar, which by the way is €695 and not €600

_Indeed, it is understandable.  BTW, your website says 850 euro, not 695.


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## gearoid (7 Mar 2007)

*Re: Invest Like the Best*



Rory Gillen said:


> Few of us can learn in a vacuum and I myself am eternally grateful for the great investment books written. From those books, I have distilled several 'time-tested' approaches to investing in the stock markets - UK, US & Irish - that any one can follow.





Rory Gillen said:


> Everyone has their own point of view - some believe you can learn from a book but the truth is few can.



I'm confused Rory. Are you saying you can distill the great books and give a one day training course based around those principles, whereas we mere mortals don't have the wit to read the same book for a tiny fraction of the cost?

Just playing devils-advocate here ;-). I may just go along to one of your free seminars, as I'm open minded... just sceptical and unconvinced that a 1 day course could ever teach you what reading five or six appropriately chosen texts would.

I know people are cash rich and time poor these days so I suppose you'll always have a market...


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## Rory Gillen (8 Mar 2007)

*To Charttrader,* yes the standard fee is e850 but this is discounted to e695 at Free Workshops where the vast majority of seminar attendees come from.

*To Gearoid,* it's my own view that that majority of people who pick up an Investment Classic find it difficult to either follow the message or implement it. Sometimes this is because of a lack of experience, sometimes because of a lack of confidence. ILTB has gone well beyond teaching what is in the Investment Classics to providing real, easy-to-follow but, critically, 'time-tested' approaches that all can implement. For example, it took me years myself to fully appreciate and implement the knowledge that lies within 'The Intelligent Investor' written by Ben Graham. Perhaps you yourself have a good deal of experience but I think you'll agree not everyone has.

I'll leave it at that, my only message is that people should keep an open mind and if questions are asked about ILTB then it might be helpful for them to know that we run Free Workshops where, like all adults, they can choose.


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## charttrader (8 Mar 2007)

Rory Gillen has made a contribution to a debate on another thread, where the question of dollar cost averaging was being debated.  In it, he said that* "The comment made earlier that 'The returns from dollar cost averaging are most likely to be less than a lump sum invested' is mis-leading and most probably plain incorrect" *(it was Rory who chose to highlight that passage BTW, not me).  He then goes on to give the "correct" answer.  

See full thread at http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=49429&page=2

Unfortunately, it is Rory who is ''plain incorrect'', as made clear on the thread.

Everyone gets things wrong - even stockbrokers and benevolent harbingers of stock market education like Rory.  I mention it here because Rory's seminar apparently dwells on the godsend that is DCA.  He has written glowingly on its benefits in the past, in Irish Times articles as well as in AAM.

Considering that he wholeheartedly recommends it to clients who have paid the best part of a grand for a one-day seminar, I thought it relevant to bring up the issue here.

What's the story Rory?  Are you not aware that DCA has been proven to cut people's market returns?  Or do you choose not to tell them?  If so, why?  In a nutshell, are you the duped or the duper?

Assuming the former is the case - your reply on the aforementioned AAM  thread seemed full of genuine if misguided conviction -  I suggest you check out the subject more fully.  Once you've seen that the benefits of DCA are more psychological than financial, perhaps you will say as much to future iltb customers.  Until you do so, your seminars face a pretty big credibility issue.


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## Rory Gillen (8 Mar 2007)

*Charttrader -* For the record, 'Dollar cost averaging' is well understood to be the most effective way of dealing with stock market volatility. That was simply my point, no more complex than that. No one was arguing, and certainly the earlier contributor's question was not asking, whether a lump sum invested at a point in time would do better should the markets rise. It's self evident that that is the case - but few of us know when we are investing a lump sum whether the markets will continue to rise or not - averaging in helps mitigate the risk. I'll leave it at that. You will get more views and more balanced discussions if you keep the replies less personal.


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## charttrader (8 Mar 2007)

_For the record, 'Dollar cost averaging' is well understood to be the most effective way of dealing with stock market volatility. That was simply my point, no more complex than that.

_Sure, it mitigates against volatility, but you said more than that.  You said that a particular statement - 'The returns from dollar cost averaging are most likely to be less than a lump sum invested' - was "mis-leading and most probably plain incorrect".

Thankfully, you now appear to be implicitly acknowledging that it was not, in fact, "plain incorrect''.

I'll conclude with the words of another poster from the original thread;

_Considering that you advise people about stocks this is one hell of a statement to make. The long term trend of stock markets is up (otherwise why would you invest?) so DCA will always provide a poorer return over the longer term than lump sum investments.

The SSIA scheme was a five year investment, which is not a sufficiently long period of time for stock market investment. I can only hope that you follow charttrader's advice and add the facts regarding the underperformance of DCA over the longer term to your seminars._


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## PMU (8 Mar 2007)

I think you are being unfair to RG.  Some people can read books and apply the strategies therein, others can’t. From my professional experience, there are people to whom you can give a guideline, etc. and they will follow it; and there are others who require hands on guidance. If RG’s course provides such guidance to people who can’t work from books, it’s not a rip off, and is to be welcomed.  €695 is not a lot for a day’s training, and it’s not like the TICN that takes 5% of the investment. If someone goes to one of these courses and decides he / she is not an investor, he / she has spent money wisely, as he / she will save money otherwise lost on the markets.  If someone attends the course and then becomes a successful investor, so much to the better. He / she personally gains by making money, and we all gain as that person is contributing to the efficient allocation of assets by the market.  The fact that somebody could have achieved the same by self study is neither here nor there and doesn’t make the course a rip-off – some people just do not have the discipline for self study and its subsequent application.   If RG were offering a ‘miracle way’ of investing I’d be suspicious, but I don’t think he is.  (Please note I’ve no connection with RG; but unless the guy is peddling miracle investment strategies, I think you should cut him some slack).


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## gearoid (8 Mar 2007)

Hi PMU,
I don't think I am being unfair.

What I picked up was that much of the seminar was the dissemination of well know techniques documented in widely and cheaply available books.

I think RG has said that himself.

All I'm saying is try read the books first. The Benjamin Graham and Peter Lynch books are available from the public library if you want them FOR FREE.

If you don't feel you can read a book on the subject and you have the money then fine, but 685 euros at 7% a year return over 20 years will give you .... dum de dum de dum ... 2650.73 euros. Take away tax at 20% and you're still looking at somewhere around 1500 euros profit you wouldn't have. I know it's a bit trite but something to consider. You forego that by heading to the seminar instead of the library.

I understand people might not have the time, willpower, confidence etc.

But... you'll only learn so much in one day, and you'll only on average remember 10% of what RG says. You can always return to the book again.

In the meantime all I'm saying is try do your own research if you can and join a share investment club if you find it difficult to do things on your own.

I just thought the implication most people couldn't read a book on finances was somewhat patronising and a bit of a glib generalisation so I picked up on it.

Gearoid


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## charttrader (8 Mar 2007)

PMU
I have nothing against investment/trading courses.  I think some are better than others.  The iltb site is _very_ short on detail and is, it appears to me, aimed very much at newbies with next to no knowledge of market matters. 

People should read a few books and check out the basics on sites like investopedia, etc, before rushing into any course.  Once one understands the basics, it's a lot easier to decide if the information on offer is worth paying for or not.  I agree with Gearoid's comment that Rory's thoughts on books are  patronising, to say the least.


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## techman (8 Mar 2007)

I have attended the one day ILTB seminar. I have since attended 2 evening seminars.

I have them to be very worthwhile and informative. I also think many of the above posters have been very unfair to RG.

Why don't you go and attend a free workshop?


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## Rory Gillen (8 Mar 2007)

*Charttrader & Gearoid - * one last comment from my side - of course people should read the investment classics and indeed beginner books on stock market investing. But there is nothing wrong with people going along to check out courses on offer. ILTB distinguishes itself in the market place by teaching investing only - not speculating or trading - as it is our firm belief that the simple returns largely accrue to the investors over time. Good luck to traders who can make the returns on that side of the fence but I think most traders will readily accept that, in aggregate, traders cannot get the full returns on offer.

ILTB's site may be light on detail but going to a Free Workshop should still not be dismissed so lightly. There are only three ways to invest - cash on deposits, property and the stock markets (let's leave commodities to one side) and it is my contention that training is required. Where does one get trained in stock market investing ? Personally I believe there is a natural gap, and I'd have given alot myself for someone to have helped me along. Not everyone has the day to day interest you both appear to have and many will gladly accept and pay for someone to provide measured answers. I can assure you that I have had every kind of person on my seminars - from the raw beginner to the pro who is just plain nosey and who is not expecting to learn much. Each walks away knowing they got value for their money. I may claim alot here and in the workshops but I can back it up opn the 1-day seminar. I simply have no interest in false claims.

I will now rest my case, I would simply ask for more balance in responses when people ask about ILTB. Should either of you decide go to a workshop please do not hesitate to introduce yourself. You will not find me at all patronising, quite the opposite. 

If I have time in the future, I will try and make some more contributions to this site - like the Motley Fool Site, this site is a good one and can make a valuable contribution to demystifying personal finance.


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## gearoid (8 Mar 2007)

Rory,
I should clarify. I felt the implication that the majority of people wouldn't learn from books was perhaps a little patronising as a theory. I didn't imply you were. If that came across I apologise. I think it is fair to query what someone would gain from a course such as yours given its cost and brevity. I am sure the course is excellent, just a little expensive for the ordinary punter.
Best of luck,
Gearoid


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## Mikesnn (10 Mar 2007)

Hi All, I'm currently ploughing through "Evidence-Based Technical Analysis" by David Aronson. It puts the kibosh on the subjective pseudo-scientific TA that is peddled by the likes of TICN (of which I am a club member), introduces a bit of rigour in terms of those TA techniques which have any validity vs. those that are no better than reading tea leaves. I've read through a fair few books on investing by now but there's nothing like getting some skin in the game to concentrate the mind. Anyone trade options ?


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## smiley (11 Mar 2007)

hi Mike..dont trade options but have read 'technical analysis of the financial markets' by John Murphy...v good book..have you read it? its the bible of technical analysis.

mosy of the technical people seemed to think that last weeks market rally was a dead cat bounce....there hasnt bee another dip yet....which makes me think some of technical analysis is a bit like reading tea leaves...will be interesting to see how the next few weeks play out.

i used the dip to buy solid companies.


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## CollyD (12 Mar 2007)

Such a shame how someones thread can get highjacked, I understand the need for a good debate but not so much so that it is 2/3rds of the thread. Now I understand the benefit of stickies and more so the locked sticky.


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## smiley (13 Mar 2007)

We are still talking about books Colly. A few of us that are debating here were the original posters who were responsible for posting the original book list in the first place....however, the posts about ILTB were sort of out of place...

anyway, if you are interested in excellent valuable reading read..ben grahams book' the intelligent investor' and and also 'one up on wall street' by Peter Lynch.


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## Mikesnn (13 Mar 2007)

Other good investing books I have read include Jim Cramer's "Real Money" and "Mad Money" - very readable and good fun; Alexander Elder's "Trading for a Living" -  lots of sentiment and trading psychology; Joel Greenblatt's "The Little Book that Beats the Market" - has a value investing "magic formula", pending reading I have Ken Fisher's "The Only 3 Questions That Count".


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## room305 (14 Mar 2007)

Mikesnn said:


> Other good investing books I have read include Jim Cramer's "Real Money" and "Mad Money" - very readable and good fun



I can't say I've ever shelled out for his books but I have _serious_ doubts about Cramer's abilities and some of his claims. The 14 year 24% annual compounded return he claims as a hedge fund manager has never been independently audited and he sold out at the market peak in 2000.

While this might appear good timing he remained bullish and the basket of "super six" tech shares he recommended during the ensuing bear market went on to lose 90% of their value before he advised selling them pretty much at the bottom. Lately he has claimed to have been skeptical of the tech bubble even though he was clearly a cheerleader at the time.

His books could still be useful but he fires out a dozen or so buy and sell recommendations on each show. Blogs following his picks (some of which he has issued "cease and desist" orders to) indicate he rarely beats the market.

The only thing you are likely to do with such a trading strategy is enrich your broker.


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## triple_x (25 Mar 2007)

I thought I would add some input here...

I have done the TICN course about 1.5 years ago now and I firmly believe and still do that any education in this area is a good thing!

So how did I get on after the course - well for the 1st 6 months I did very well - made about 25% ROI.

The next 6 months (from July '06 to the end of the year) no so well. Now I seem to be making back my initial 25% again.

The important thing I learned were the following...

After all the investment courses, reading books you have to dive in and learn as the market devlops...One thing for sure what the market has done in the past 2 years does not mean that the market(or any one stock) is going to do that again. This is what technical charting on its own tries to do....You have to do your homework - fundamental analysis (risk to reward, future projections...)

You only make money when you sell. Dont fool yourself into thinking that you are up 25% but have not sold your positions. The market can change on a dime....

If you do your fundamental analysis then the rewards can be quite good. For example at the start of this year a lot of analysts were predicting that OIL was going to below $50 a barrel yet if you did your homework the fundamentals have not changed and it is why OIL is now at $62 and I believe will at least go to $70 by the summer....OIL stocks and alternative energy look good right now but it is important to understand why. Similarly for other industries...

One needs to understand what the FED is doing and how it affects the markets also things like CPI(Consumer Price Index), housing data(if people are having difficulty holding onto there houses they are not going to have money for buying consumer items!) as well as other indices etc . etc... 

Using the Stochastic signals and bolinger bands is a good technical tool to use after doing your fundamental analysis to know when to buy then to sell and then to buy again (i.e the magic of compound interest).

Dont underestimate the power of compound interest. Alot of people who look at the stock market look for a single stock that they want to go  from 0-1000% in one year! The odds of this happening are quite remote. Better method I believe is to move your money around (buy and sell stock) using compound interest.

One other thing is that TICN frowns on buying on margin but if you do your fundamental analysis and understand what you are doing then it can make sense to buy on margin to make good money- I have done this many times and it can be very rewarding. 

TICN purport to sell covered calls - I got burnt on this many times. If the stock is going to go negative better to sell the stock than playing with covered calls.....I would not advise to the novice to market OPTIONs wether  Calls or puts!

Hopefully this advice might be useful to someone!


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## miller (27 Mar 2007)

thanks to every one who posted. all this information is going to help me alot.


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## Markjbloggs (29 Mar 2007)

If you are in any doubt whatsoever on Jim Cramer and his stock-picking advice, I strongly suggest you read the following article he wrote in 2000 just before the bubble burst.  Then I suggest you get quotes on the stocks he recommends in his article.  If you still think he is a reliable advisor, then you probably should not be investing in stocks !!

  [broken link removed]


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## room305 (29 Mar 2007)

Markjbloggs said:


> If you are in any doubt whatsoever on Jim Cramer and his stock-picking advice, I strongly suggest you read the following article he wrote in 2000 just before the bubble burst.  Then I suggest you get quotes on the stocks he recommends in his article.  If you still think he is a reliable advisor, then you probably should not be investing in stocks !!
> 
> [broken link removed]



;-) This is a great quote from the piece



> Most of these companies don't even have earnings per share, so we won't have to be constrained by that methodology for quarters to come.



In case anyone wonders what he is really doing with his Mad Money show, he explains it himself here ...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZTt7IQB9rc0


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## triple_x (30 Mar 2007)

Jim Cramer - some chancer - everybody sell - and he buys at a low . No wonder why why they are all freaked out about market sentiment!


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