# I'm cynical about medical staff complaining about conditions in hospitals.



## Purple (7 Apr 2013)

I'm cynical about medical staff complaining about conditions in hospitals. If they really cared enough they would not have bullied and threatened the tax payer into giving then the money in pay increases rather than spending it on facilities and services.

There is a direct link between the state of our hospitals and the very high pay levels enjoyed by health service employees, particularly the so called "front line" staff.


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## celebtastic (7 Apr 2013)

purple said:


> i'm cynical about medical staff complaining about conditions in hospitals. If they really cared enough they would not have bullied and threatened the tax payer into giving then the money in pay increases rather than spending it on facilities and services.
> 
> There is a direct link between the state of our hospitals and the very high pay levels enjoyed by health service employees, particularly the so called "front line" staff.



+1


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## Sue Ellen (7 Apr 2013)

Purple said:


> I'm cynical about medical staff complaining about conditions in hospitals. If they really cared enough they would not have bullied and threatened the tax payer into giving then the money in pay increases rather than spending it on facilities and services.
> 
> There is a direct link between the state of our hospitals and the very high pay levels enjoyed by health service employees, particularly the so called "front line" staff.





celebtastic said:


> +1



I don't often rise to the bait thrown out by you two as I am sick and tired of reading the same stuff from both of you, over and over  and over again.  Could you not just for once show a little bit of respect and leave one thread alone, where snowy lets us know about a young lad who is facing death, and has put out a request for help for Our Lady's Hospital


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## Leper (7 Apr 2013)

Sue Ellen said:


> I don't often rise to the bait thrown out by you two as I am sick and tired of reading the same stuff from both of you, over and over and over again. Could you not just for once show a little bit of respect and leave one thread alone, where snowy lets us know about a young lad who is facing death, and has put out a request for help for Our Lady's Hospital


 
Celebastic and Purple are entitled to their views.  However, this is not the thread in which to air those views.  Perhaps one of the mods can start another thread for the pair.


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## ajapale (7 Apr 2013)

Done.


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## mtk (7 Apr 2013)

Personally i think everyone on tv and radio is afraid to crtitcise front line staff .
I guess they are afraid they may end up in A&E and prefer to talk abut the " system".
The lack of medical staff thoroughness and efficiency in hospitals is frightening ( both in public and private ) in my experience.


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## Leper (7 Apr 2013)

Let's get things into perspective here. Staff in hospitals, the Gardaí, the Civil Service, the Local Authorities, etc etc did not cause the recession. Neither did they give carte blance to the banks to behave in the dreadful way they did. 

Yet, the self employed, the government, the rich etc seem to think that anybody in receipt of public monies should take and keep taking wage cuts.

The government has separated the public service from the private sector in their usual effort to divide and conquer. The government has succeeded in duping the population. But, not satiified with this lie the government drives on and seperated the frontline public service from everyone else in the public service also.

The populace has become confused and does not care who should accept further pay cuts as long as it is not they themselves.The politicians remain corrupt, the bankers have retired on lump sums to holiday homes abroad instead of to prison. Our former government leaders seem immune to the way in which they behaved. Bertie is coining it with his pensions and public appearances. Callely has gone to ground. I won't even mention yer man in North Tipp another "honest" guy? Michéal will probably go down in history as the only Fianna Fáil leader not to be Taoiseach. The Labour Party appear to be farting in silk and have forgotten their grass roots. The Labour grassrouts find themselves in a state of limbo.

Despite promises the Senate is still there and remains untouched. Still we have the same amount of TD's. And still we have TD's claiming unreal travelling expenses. These expenses are in hundreds of thousands not cents.

The Irish are a quiet beaten down nation.  We did not take to the streets like the Cypriots, Spanish and Greeks.  We seem to take everything on the chin. We fought for hundreds of years against the Brits who caused less problems here than the EU. And still we keep turning to Europe which let's face it is the greatest gravy train in the world for politicians.

When will we ever learn?


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## Teatime (7 Apr 2013)

Leper said:


> We fought for hundreds of years against the Brits who caused less problems here than the EU.


 
Hmmmmm, at the risk of appearing a revisionist, I dont think we really fought the "Brits" for hundreds of years. Some people fought for independence but most people were more than obedient to our rulers. After the 9 years war we did a have a few risings but most were drunken orgies (e.g. Robert Emmet). We supported King James which didn't work out too well and the French tried to give us a hand in 1798 without a whole lot of Irish support. Lets not forget that the 1916 heroes were spat at by the people of Dublin for ruining their city as they were led off to internment camps. But the Brits made a fatal mistake - daily executions of young and crippled. Anyway I digress. But its easy to see why we dont rise up or protest too easily. It's not in our genes.


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## Marion (7 Apr 2013)

I'm not  really sure that direct pay cuts would be directly sourced to creating benefits for the sick and needy or special needs but if that makes one feel better to think so ... 

Marion


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## Leper (8 Apr 2013)

Marion said:


> I'm not really sure that direct pay cuts would be directly sourced to creating benefits for the sick and needy or special needs but if that makes one feel better to think so ...
> 
> Marion


 
Despite what some others will say . . . you are right.


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## Purple (8 Apr 2013)

Sue Ellen said:


> I don't often rise to the bait thrown out by you two as I am sick and tired of reading the same stuff from both of you, over and over  and over again.  Could you not just for once show a little bit of respect and leave one thread alone, where snowy lets us know about a young lad who is facing death, and has put out a request for help for Our Lady's Hospital


I’m really sick of the very real issue of cost and efficiency in the health services being clouded my emotive cases of sick children and young people. For the record I’ve lost a sister as very young child and another close family member to cancer at a young age and I’ve had children in hospital for extended periods. I know what hospitals look like and smell like and I know the work done by medical staff. I’ve seen great doctors and nurses and awful doctors and nurses. What happens whenever this topic comes up is big steaming pile of bull is poured on top of the facts and the core issues, in the form of “caring, sick children, saints, you wouldn’t do the job, etc”. I find the actions and words of nurses and doctors two-faced and hypocritical. They were more interested in getting pay increases than improving services and are now more interested in keeping those increases than maintaining services. When nurses or doctors come out and suggest how to fix some of the problems, any of the problems, then they will have some credibility. As things stand they are just paying lip service while protecting their corner.





Marion said:


> I'm not  really sure that direct pay cuts would be directly sourced to creating benefits for the sick and needy or special needs but if that makes one feel better to think so ...
> 
> Marion


So you see no link between spending more on wages and having less left for services and facilities. I find that bizarre.


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Apr 2013)

_Purple_ you're outa line, and usually so balanced.  Let me give a few facts about life as a junior doctor.

Officially 9-5 but required to be at your post at 7 a.m. for two pre hours of non paid overtime.  Likewise unpaid overtime after 5 p.m. before you get to go home, if you are not on call.

On call about once every two weeks.  That means 30 hours in the hospital.  2 to 3 hours sleep, if you are lucky.  On call used to mean "just in case", these days it means 30 hours work with little break.

Yes they get paid for *some* of their overtime, but then they are deducted 58%, 10% of which is a pensions levy for overtime which isn't even pensionable. Net take home pay works out around 5 euro an hour.

We are breaking every rule in the EU rule book.  They all want out. Used to be you might hope to aspire one day to be a well paid consultant, but that ladder has been pulled up by those who are already in those posts.   If you can't afford private health insurance, you too should get out for within a short space of time there will be no public health service left.


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## Purple (8 Apr 2013)

I know all about the life of a junior doctor, having been married to one.
The working time act exclusion is set to end, but probably won't any time soon.
That said they can earn a few bob extra in overtime as it stands.

[broken link removed] from Irishhealth.com tells us that the average pay for a junior doctor is around €80'000 per year, with €31'000 of that made up in overtime. It has to be remembered that they are still training at that stage so the state is still investing in them.
The average working week is 54 hours, that's 15 hours a week of overtime, so that average payment per hour is €39.75. That's a fair bit more than a fiver.
They earn 10-30% more than their counterparts in the UK.
The pay gap is much bigger for Consultants and for GP's between here and the UK.

The fact that the state has invested tens or maybe hundreds of thousands in the  6 or 7 years they have spend training is also a factor.

Info on GP income ([broken link removed]) :
The average income for GMS (Medical Card) GP's in 2009 was €220'000. 
There have been reductions in payments since then but their private fees have gone up so the income levels won't have decreased by much and may have gone up.


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## celebtastic (8 Apr 2013)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> ...that ladder has been pulled up by those who are already in those posts...



This is the same situation right across the public sector, where the unions have protected the gold plated Ts & Cs of their existing members, at the expense of future employees and the Irish taxpayer in general.

I agree that this sort of barefaced greed is utterly indefensible.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> If you can't afford private health insurance, you too should  get out for within a short space of time there will be no public health  service left.



Again - if reasonable salaries were paid to staff in the health service, this would not be the case.


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## Firefly (8 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> Again - if reasonable salaries were paid to staff in the health service, this would not be the case.



In a "normal" economy I would agree with you, but in our current state, any savings made by cutting wages and other costs will just mean that we as a state borrow less money from the Troika rather than putting this money into improving services. (Borrowing less money is good too though)..


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## celebtastic (8 Apr 2013)

Firefly said:


> In a "normal" economy I would agree with you, but in our current state, any savings made by cutting wages and other costs will just mean that we as a state borrow less money from the Troika rather than putting this money into improving services. (Borrowing less money is good too though)..




Agreed

However, we are currently borrowing €15,000,000,000 per annum, all the while wages and job numbers in the wealth creating sector are declining and front line services are being cut while the pay and conditions in the public sector are hardly being touched.

This is clearly unsustainable. Something has to give.


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## gianni (8 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> Agreed
> 
> However, we are currently borrowing €15,000,000,000 per annum, all the while wages and job numbers in the wealth creating sector are declining and front line services are being cut while the pay and conditions in the public sector are *hardly *being touched.
> 
> This is clearly unsustainable. Something has to give.



I wonder what your definition of hardly is ?


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## RonanC (8 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> while the pay and conditions in the public sector are hardly being touched.
> 
> This is clearly unsustainable. Something has to give.



April Fools day was last week


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## Purple (9 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> Agreed
> 
> However, we are currently borrowing €15,000,000,000 per annum, all the while wages and job numbers in the wealth creating sector are declining and front line services are being cut while the pay and conditions in the public sector are hardly being touched.
> 
> This is clearly unsustainable. Something has to give.



I don’t think that fair; there have been extensive cuts to the public sector both in wages and in personnel. Under normal circumstances these would be very significant.
This isn’t a thread about public sector pay in general; it’s about pay levels of so-called “front line” medical staff.


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## brigade (9 Apr 2013)

Purple said:


> I don’t think that fair; there have been extensive cuts to the public sector both in wages and in personnel. Under normal circumstances these would be very significant.
> This isn’t a thread about public sector pay in general; it’s about pay levels of so-called “front line” medical staff.


Do you include GP's in this?


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## brigade (9 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> Agreed
> 
> However, we are currently borrowing €15,000,000,000 per annum, all the while wages and job numbers in the wealth creating sector are declining and front line services are being cut while the pay and conditions in the public sector are hardly being touched.
> 
> This is clearly unsustainable. Something has to give.





I have asked you in two different threads by what % do you think public sector pay should be cut before you think it's enough?
I'd really like to know what you think instead of coming up with the same sound bite "This is clearly unsustainable."


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## Purple (9 Apr 2013)

brigade said:


> Do you include GP's in this?



HSE payments to GP’s have been cut, I think it was in the order of 8%,  but average charges for private consultations have increased.
Do remember that the headline payment per patient that a GMS GP gets is only part of the package. They also get grants for equipment, staff paid for (once they hit certain volumes of patients on their list) and they get a state pension. 
On top of that they all GP’s, both GMS and non GMS, get payments from the state for prenatal care, vaccination etc.
In 2011 25 GP’s received payments from the state of over €470’000. Their private practice income was on top of that.

It should be noted that this is gross business income out of which they have to pay their overheads but they can be minimised.


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## Purple (9 Apr 2013)

brigade said:


> I have asked you in two different threads by what % do you think public sector pay should be cut before you think it's enough?
> I'd really like to know what you think instead of coming up with the same sound bite "This is clearly unsustainable."



The cuts have been significant and have caused hardship for tens of thousands of people. That’s a fact.
The budget deficit is significant and the states wage bill is unsustainable. This is also a fact.

The question is how to we reconcile both issues. Cutting pay for middle income state employees removes money from the economy and would cause an increase in mortgage default etc.
Rather than cutting the pay of lower paid state employees I am of the opinion that people earning €40 an hour in overtime and people getting an average gross income from the state of €220’000 (on top of which they earn a private income) should be looked at first. In that context it angers me that they are untouchable because they are “Medical Professionals” and should be exempt from the usual value for money  assessments that most employees and contractors are subject to.


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

The government, IMO, has currently an extremely strong hand when it comes to GPs and medical card payments - ask any GP and they'll tell you that their private patients are barely coming in (anyone see any non-medical card GPs operating?). The government could, IMO, quite easily announce it would be paying 30 euro per visit for medical card holders tomorrow with no additional payments and the GPs would have to accept it. They mightn't like it but they have little other income to play hardball.


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## terrysgirl33 (9 Apr 2013)

I remember talking to some nurses in the mid noughties who said they would gladly forgo their benchmarking if the money went into services, but they knew there was no chance of that.  There is a lot of cynicism in the health service, not just outside it.  I earn a good wage in a semi-state company and my take home income has gone down by about 25% in the last few years.  It is needed, and I am not cribbing about it, but there is only so much you can give.


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## Purple (9 Apr 2013)

Firefly said:


> The government, IMO, has currently an extremely strong hand when it comes to GPs and medical card payments - ask any GP and they'll tell you that their private patients are barely coming in (anyone see any non-medical card GPs operating?). The government could, IMO, quite easily announce it would be paying 30 euro per visit for medical card holders tomorrow with no additional payments and the GPs would have to accept it. They mightn't like it but they have little other income to play hardball.




There are plenty of non GMS GP's as the number of medical card lists available are restricted. Non GMS GP's still get a substantial proportion of their income from the state through vaccines etc.


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## Firefly (9 Apr 2013)

Purple said:


> There are plenty of non GMS GP's as the number of medical card lists available are restricted. Non GMS GP's still get a substantial proportion of their income from the state through vaccines etc.



Is it any wonder the points are so high


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## Purple (9 Apr 2013)

terrysgirl33 said:


> I remember talking to some nurses in the mid noughties who said they would gladly forgo their benchmarking if the money went into services, but they knew there was no chance of that.


The point is that the money was taken from services to pay for the increases.


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## celebtastic (10 Apr 2013)

Purple said:


> The point is that the money was taken from services to pay for the increases.



And who pays for this wonderful largesse?

Either the private sector worker / entrepreneur, or future generations of Irish citizens through our already bloated government debt.


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## Purple (11 Apr 2013)

celebtastic said:


> And who pays for this wonderful largesse?
> 
> Either the private sector worker / entrepreneur, or future generations of Irish citizens through our already bloated government debt.




And other public sector employees (they pay income tax as well), and everyone who pays VAT and every other tax.
The vast bulk of the massive increases in funding for the health service over the last 15 years went on wage costs, through both pay increases well ahead of inflation and private sector wage inflation, and through a more than doubling of numbers employees (between 2000 and 2009 staff levels went up by 37% and in just 5 years, between 2005 and 2009, pay costs went up by 21%), plus the funded posts that are not direct employees.
We just came out bottom of the heap in the last OECD value for money audit. 
We don’t have the aging population that most other developed countries have so our spending per head should be much lower than moth other countries. Despite this our staffing levels are around the OECD average (with nursing levels way above the average) and our costs, relative to average per capita income, are way above the average OECD level.

This Link and 
this link give some detail.


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