# HSE are not using their own guidelines for medical card means test



## Black Sheep (9 Aug 2013)

Assessment of Interest:-

"The notional rate will be set by the HSE quarterly by taking an average of the current deposit interest rates of a number of Irish Banks & Building Societies on the 1st if January, April, July and October"

Was speaking with HSE to day on behalf of a friend over 70 who is borderline since the new rates were introduced. Has anyone else been affected by this.

The rate they are actually using is 3%. 
Not even the hard working Ciaran T can find those for us.


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## Time (9 Aug 2013)

Is there any oversight body for the HSE that it can be appealed to?


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## Black Sheep (9 Aug 2013)

My friend has not as yet applied but we were following their instructions to check rates in advance and if in doubt phone 1890.......

The lady on the phone consulted with colleagues who agreed 3% is the rate that is being applied.

I requested a written copy of the calculation. Not a hope.
I requested to be put through to the department that does the calculations. Blanket NO.

Don't know where next to go


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## Time (10 Aug 2013)

You should be able to get the info using FOI. Will cost €15.


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## browtal (10 Aug 2013)

The HSE do have an appeals section, which are based in various parts of the country One in Waterford. They are very sympathetic to individual circumstances. 

The HSE have strange ways of accessing interest rates, they do have brochures outlining how they arrive at these for the 'Fair Deal Scheme' anyway which I assume applies to all their calculations for interest rates. They are very out of date in the current climate.
Browtal


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## Black Sheep (10 Aug 2013)

They do state clearly in their own website how the calculation is (should be) done and clearer still in the new legislation of April 2013. The problem is they are not applying it. They are still working from the pre April rules.

There is no way this should should go to appeal as this person is within the guidelines if applied correctly.

I'll try ringing our local Regional office


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## Time (11 Aug 2013)

Complaint to the ombudsman?


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## browtal (11 Aug 2013)

The HSE are rarely up to date. You can usually get more up to date information in the newspapers. 

Their communications section is not as efficient as their increment department.

I recall a large portion of their pensions being taken from OP in care for many years despite the clear knowledge by the HSE of their illegality. Eventually this cost the taxpayer an additional amount to pay an agency to access and repay the overcharges.
We are a tolerant people.
Browtal


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## Black Sheep (11 Aug 2013)

The Hse really are a mess and there's no signs of improvement anytime soon.

What really bugged me was the curt answers I was getting from them. I am aware of many people who life in fear of the renewal of the card even though they are nowhere near the cut off point. And the worst point of all is that these people are all over 70 and many are unwilling or unable to fight.

And yes indeed Browtal I well remember the debacle with the over deduction from the pensions


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## roker (12 Aug 2013)

I thought it was simply over €700 per person per week maximum income for over 70 yrs age, I do not understand the bit about 3% interest


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## Time (12 Aug 2013)

They assess interest at 3% of savings/investments. The reality is no one is getting close to 3%.


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## Black Sheep (12 Aug 2013)

Roker
That €700 per week was reduced to €600 in Budget 2013.

That €600 includes combined income from all sources ie. income from State Pensions, Occupational pension and interest income from any savings and Investments.

The problem is Hse are assessing the rate of interest @ 3% and not at the CURRENT rate (probably about 1%) which is clearly laid out in their own legislation of April 2013. This has the affect of assessing the person on a higher income than they actually have and perhaps denying them of a card to which they may be entitled


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## The Ghoul (12 Aug 2013)

Black Sheep, you're probably aware of the following but no harm posting it. I've highlighted the relevant bit


			
				 Citizensinformation.ie said:
			
		

> Savings or similar investments of €36,000 for a single person and €72,000 for a couple are disregarded. A notional rate of interest is applied by the HSE to the balance.
> 
> *Alternatively, the HSE will apply the actual rate if you provide a certificate of interest paid on savings in the last full calendar year.* In the case of fixed-term or long-term savings products, where the interest is only applied at the end of a fixed period, if you wish, the HSE will only take account of the interest earned on the date the investment matures. Again, the HSE can apply the notional rate if you wish


 
I know a few over 70s who have medical cards and whose deposit interest means they are very borderline on the means test - particularly since the last budget. They have moved money into non or low interest bearing accounts such as current accounts to reduce this income for medical card purposes. 

I don't know what attitude the HSE takes to this as they have not had to reapply for an over 70s medical card in a while. If questioned I would write to the HSE quoting the above and/or legislation and enclosing bank statements showing interest earned (or not earned). If the HSE are ignoring legislation then I don't know what I'd do then - possibly write to the Minister?


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## Time (12 Aug 2013)

If they are ignoring legislation you have 2 options really, complain to the ombudsman or have their refusal judicially reviewed. Option 2 is really a nuclear option that would cost too much money but it would end the practice forever.


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## browtal (12 Aug 2013)

Hi Time, 
you have us a laugh Browtal


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## Time (12 Aug 2013)

Why? I would judicially review any government body that does not play by it's own rules.


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## Black Sheep (13 Aug 2013)

As we would need to have received a refusal before we could take this to either Ombudsman or judicial review. So far an application for a card has not been made as we have been getting the ducks in order in advance, as per HSE recommendation. Mounds of paperwork to be gathered.

Since this discussion began a couple of others have joined in, the sister in law and her neighbour and I'm also aware of others

All we are asking for (at this stage) is a written copy of the current chart/calculation they are working from. Open and transparent??


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