# Cowen goes back to school!



## PaddyBloggit (8 Jul 2012)

I see that taxpayer's money is being put to good use:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ire...cation-course--wont-say-paying-huge-fees.html


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

PaddyBloggit said:


> I see that taxpayer's money is being put to good use:
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ire...cation-course--wont-say-paying-huge-fees.html



What would you do if you were him? As the article says he's still a relatively young man - he's choosing to move on and do something else with his life. More power to him I say.


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Jul 2012)

I wouldn't be doing a €50k six week course .... oh ... I might though .. with the big pot of ta*x*payer's money I'd have in my back pocket.

The course appears to be for those with high aspirations towards influential office/post/jobs etc. .... surely Cowen should have learned his lesson by now (as should asny prospective employer) that it's a case of things being best left alone.

I wouldn't put Cowen in charge of a cat!


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## Sunny (9 Jul 2012)

What has how he spends his money got anything to do you at all? If you want to moan about his large pension, then fair enough but this wins the award of the most ridiculous news story of the year in my book.


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## Niall M (9 Jul 2012)

PaddyBloggit said:


> I wouldn't be doing a €50k six week course .... oh ... I might though .. with the big pot of *takpayer's* money I'd have in my back pocket.
> 
> The course appears to be for those with high aspirations towards influential office/post/jobs etc. .... surely Cowen should have learned his lesson by now (as should *asny* prospective employer) that it's a case of things being best left alone.
> 
> I wouldn't put Cowen in charge of a cat!


 
Maybe a spelling course for you...!


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## cork (9 Jul 2012)

He is doing a course that he is paying for.

The gutter press media think that a private citizen is not entitled to privacy.


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

cork said:


> The gutter press media think that a private citizen is not entitled to privacy.



He maybe a private citizen now but a few short years ago this lump of uselessness rode this Country off a cliff through utter incompetent mismanagement,so yes I personally have an interest in what hes doing,it sure isn't what I think he should be doing...

..that would be 20 years in Mountjoy.


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> He maybe a private citizen now but a few short years ago this lump of uselessness rode this Country off a cliff through utter *incompetent mismanagement*,so yes I personally have an interest in what hes doing,it sure isn't what I think he should be doing...
> 
> ..that would be 20 years in Mountjoy.


 
Someone once told me that in most jobs people rise / get promoted until they find their level of incompetence... i.e. you're good enough at each successive level to get promoted, but then eventually you reach the level where you actually aren't up to scratch. I always thought Cowen was very impressive as a Minister; I remember him steamrolling poor Richard Bruton on Q&A more than once, in the lead up to Fianna Fail winning the penultimate election.

I can't really reconcile how / why you think Cowen should be in Mountjoy for poor decisions made while Taoiseach? Unless you believe it's a crime not to be good at your job?

IMHO there are plenty of people more responsible for the state this country is in than Cowen, who are still enjoying their liberty.


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## Niall M (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> He maybe a private citizen now but a few short years ago this lump of uselessness rode this Country off a cliff through utter incompetent mismanagement,so yes I personally have an interest in what hes doing,it sure isn't what I think he should be doing...
> 
> ..*that would be 20 years in Mountjoy*.


 
for what crime?


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

Niall M said:


> for what crime?



The Financial mismanagement of the State bordering on Economic Treason.

Where have you been the last 5 years that you missed the part where we lost sovereignty and have the EU/IMF/ECB running the Country.

Unemployment at 15%

The Billions of bankster debt landed on the Tax Payer

MORE than 1.8 million people are struggling to survive on €100 or less a month after bills are paid.

Services cut to the bone,property taxes,water taxes etc ad nauseum

All this can be traced back to two men,one is Clown the other Aherne,Cowen while he was Finance Minister and Taoiseach oversaw all this and exacerbated it at every turn and don't give me any ould guff about lehman brothers or the World economy,he was the leader of this Country,the buck stops firmly with him.


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> IMHO there are plenty of people more responsible for the state this country is in than Cowen, who are still enjoying their liberty.



There really cannot be that many,he was the leader of the Country and sorry but the buck stops with him.

Iceland recently had their leader tried for something similar,in this Country we fire a couple of hundred grand at them and give them a pension of a similar amt for life...to use that hateful clowenism,no wonder "we are where we are"


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> The Financial mismanagement of the State bordering on Economic Treason.
> 
> Where have you been the last 5 years that you missed the part where we lost sovereignty and have the EU/IMF/ECB running the Country.
> 
> ...


 
Well based on your expectations, the salary for Taoiseach (and pension!) should probably be an awful lot higher... 

I've see you posting about property & mortgages etc as someone who has investment property(s) - did you have such a dim view of Biffo and Bertie when their policies were inflating your own personal portfolio?!


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> Well based on your expectations, the salary for Taoiseach (and pension!) should probably be an awful lot higher...



Bang on the mark there,we really should be tripling the amt we pay our political elites in order that we get the best caliber of individuals for the job...

That worked out really well for us now didn't it?


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## micmclo (9 Jul 2012)

I understand piling on weight in a stressful job, I've done it myself!

But his course won't be much good to him if he's heading for an early grave

I hope the man starts taking better care of himself.

Hadn't seen any photos of him since last year and he looks much the same


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## terrontress (9 Jul 2012)

That's fairly awful, The Mail doing a papparazzi job on him over in America.

He should be given a bit of peace.


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## TarfHead (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> The Financial mismanagement of the State bordering on Economic Treason.
> 
> Where have you been the last 5 years that you missed the part where we lost sovereignty and have the EU/IMF/ECB running the Country.
> 
> ...


 
Incompetence, and the consequences of that, is not a criminal offence. Neither, to my knowledge, is 'economic treason' (whatever that means).

What statutory crime do you believe he, or anyone else, should be charged with ?


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> Bang on the mark there,we really should be tripling the amt we pay our political elites in order that we get the best caliber of individuals for the job...
> 
> That worked out really well for us now didn't it?



I note you've replied to my statement, rather than the question I posed you... I'll draw my own conclusions so?


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

TarfHead said:


> 'economic treason' (whatever that means).



Its really not that difficult a concept to understand.




> “If the Taoiseach’s Government knew Ango Irish Bank was insolvent and he asked the Irish taxpayer to bail it out and to pay the cost we are now paying for it, that was and is economic treason. I stand over that.” Eamon Gilmore speaking in the Dail in January 2011



Once a tribunal is established look in depth at what has been the biggest con job ever pulled on the Irish people the bank guarantee then we will see those involved tried on a statutory basis.


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> I've see you posting about property & mortgages etc as someone who has investment property(s) - did you have such a dim view of Biffo and Bertie when their policies were inflating your own personal portfolio?!



Thats similar to blaming the passengers of the Tiatanic for its demise because they were enjoying the trip right up to the point the Captain ran it into an iceberg.


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> Thats similar to blaming the passengers of the Tiatanic for its demise because they were enjoying the trip right up to the point the Captain ran it into an iceberg.


 
So you admit you didn't have a problem with their policies while they were (by your estimation) sowing the seeds of our economic destruction.

I don't agree with the Titanic analogy either - the Taoiseach doesn't have the kind of executive power that a ship's captain does.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and with the benefit of it we'd all have done plenty of things differently in our personal and professional lives.

I do agree with you on one thing though, in time the facts surrounding how the guarantee came about will all be known, and I'll make my mind up about Cowen _et al_ then. In the meantime, good luck to him in his new career.


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## TarfHead (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> Its really not that difficult a concept to understand.


 
Where, in the statute books, is it defined ? You can't be tried for a concept.


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Jul 2012)

Niall M said:


> Maybe a spelling course for you...!



a little bit petty Nial M - ever hear of a typo?


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Jul 2012)

Sunny said:


> What has how he spends his money got anything to do you at all?



em ... he presided over the mess we're in now and he walked away with a large gratuity in my name and your name and every other Joe & Josephine Soap's name.


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

TarfHead said:


> Where, in the statute books, is it defined ? You can't be tried for a concept.



It may not be a concept for much longer,in 2010 a private member's bill to define the crime of "economic treason" in the Constitution was introduced (purely as a result of the catastrophic mismanagement of the State by Clown and Aherne)


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## Sunny (9 Jul 2012)

PaddyBloggit said:


> em ... he presided over the mess we're in now and he walked away with a large gratuity in my name and your name and every other Joe & Josephine Soap's name.


 
What has that got to do with his right to do some study without some rubbish tabloid newspaper trying to make a story out of it.

Start a thread about his (and every other politicians) pension entitlements if you want but that story is complete tripe and I was even more shocked to see the other papers pick it up this morning. Really is ridiculous.


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Sunny said:


> What has that got to do with his right to do some study without some rubbish tabloid newspaper trying to make a story out of it.
> 
> Start a thread about his (and every other politicians) pension entitlements if you want but that story is complete tripe and I was even more shocked to see the other papers pick it up this morning. Really is ridiculous.


 
+1

Total non-story


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

Sunny said:


> What has that got to do with his right to do some study without some rubbish tabloid newspaper trying to make a story out of it.
> 
> Start a thread about his (and every other politicians) pension entitlements if you want but that story is complete tripe and I was even more shocked to see the other papers pick it up this morning. Really is ridiculous.



Maybe you should start your own thread on it.


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> It may not be a concept for much longer,in 2010 a private member's bill to define the crime of "economic treason" in the Constitution was introduced (purely as a result of the catastrophic mismanagement of the State by Clown and Aherne)


 
And has now lapsed.

Looks more like as attempt by Trevor Sargent to score a few populist points in the hopes of keeping his seat if you ask me...


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> Maybe you should start your own thread on it.


 
Well therein lies the nub of this - The fact that you (and I, as it happens) believe that his pension is way OTT is irrelevant to the matter. Brian Cowen is no longer an elected official, and he can spend his own money however he chooses, just like any other citizen.


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> And has now lapsed.
> 
> Looks more like as attempt by Trevor Sargent to score a few populist points in the hopes of keeping his seat if you ask me...



I doubt it would take much encouraging to get Joe Higgins or his posse to reintroduce a something similar.


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Encourage away so.

But I'd say you'll find it very difficult to find any politician who aspires to ever be a Cabinet member, willing to approve a Constitutional Amendment that would allow them to be criminally liable if they made a bad judgement call.


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## TarfHead (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> I doubt it would take much encouraging to get Joe Higgins or his posse to reintroduce a something similar.


 
So you're pinning your hopes on the unlikely event of the ULA getting something on the statute books ? Including retrospective culpability ? Assuming that's Constitutional ?

And how far back should it go ? 5 years ? 10 years ? The 1977 FF election manifesto and the Department of Economic Planning ?


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

TarfHead said:


> So you're pinning your hopes on the unlikely event of the ULA getting something on the statute books ? Including retrospective culpability ? Assuming that's Constitutional ?
> 
> And how far back should it go ? 5 years ? 10 years ? The 1977 FF election manifesto and the Department of Economic Planning ?



You cannot legislate retrospectively I'm afraid Tarfhead ,Cowen is off hook on that one,however is it too much to ask that there would be something along those lines put in place in order to focus the minds of future leaders.

This is why parties like SF and a lesser extent the ULA etc are on the rise and I suspect they will have no problems putting such legislation in place when they form part of the next Govt in a few years time.


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## Sunny (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> You cannot legislate retrospectively I'm afraid Tarfhead ,Cowen is off hook on that one,however is it too much to ask that there would be something along those lines put in place in order to focus the minds of future leaders.
> 
> This is why parties like SF and a lesser extent the ULA etc are on the rise and I suspect they will have no problems putting such legislation in place when they form part of the next Govt in a few years time.



Yes, a politican will always be rushing to put legislation in place where they do could end up in jail if they make a bad decision. Asking for it in opposition is completely different to doing it when in government. Ask FG and LAB about the difference.


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

Sunny said:


> Yes, a politican will always be rushing to put legislation in place where they do could end up in jail if they make a bad decision.



Well if it were in place,maybe Cowen would have not rushed feet first barely consulting with his own cabinet before rubber stamping the bank guarantee scheme,a decision that my great grand children will be paying for...but he did so safe in the knowledge there was no come back on him.

Our system of Govt is broken beyond repair frankly,we really should be looking for a way to fix it in order to prevent future Taosigh from pulling a "clowen"


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> Well if it were in place,maybe Cowen would have not rushed feet first barely consulting with his own cabinet before rubber stamping the bank guarantee scheme,a decision that my great grand children will be paying for...but he did so safe in the knowledge there was no come back on him.
> 
> Our system of Govt is broken beyond repair frankly,we really should be looking for a way to fix it in order to prevent future Taosigh from pulling a "clowen"



Ah will ya pull yourself together - our great grandchildren will have bigger worries than a few quid we got yonks ago. Toxic environment rather than toxic debt for example.

And I'm pretty sure no country's system is perfect Knuttell, but it's not the "system" that keeps electing Lowry in Tipp... Everyone is responsible. I think we should all get 20yrs in Mountjoy!


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## Knuttell (9 Jul 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> And I'm pretty sure no country's system is perfect Knuttell, but it's not the "system" that keeps electing Lowry in Tipp...



Mandatory IQ tests at 18 before you are let loose with a pencil and ballot paper would solve the Lowry/Flynn problem immediately!!


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## ontour (9 Jul 2012)

I am amazed that the most tabloid expenditure of a political pension is on education.  Surely there is some politician blowing their pension in Vegas.


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## Delboy (9 Jul 2012)

TarfHead said:


> So you're pinning your hopes on the unlikely event of the ULA getting something on the statute books ? Including retrospective culpability ? Assuming that's Constitutional ?
> 
> And how far back should it go ? 5 years ? 10 years ? The 1977 FF election manifesto and the Department of Economic Planning ?



http://thestory.ie/2010/02/07/the-closure-of-one-mans-tax-relief/
retrospective legislation not constitutional you say.....get out of here, this is Ireland....where there's money to be made for one's friends and it's only the taxpayer losing out, we can go back at least 12 years!!!

http://thestory.ie/2010/09/08/ronan-and-bertie/
'keep fighting the good fight for us'


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## mandelbrot (9 Jul 2012)

Delboy said:


> http://thestory.ie/2010/02/07/the-closure-of-one-mans-tax-relief/
> retrospective legislation not constitutional you say.....get out of here, this is Ireland....where there's money to be made for one's friends and it's only the taxpayer losing out, we can go back at least 12 years!!!
> 
> http://thestory.ie/2010/09/08/ronan-and-bertie/
> 'keep fighting the good fight for us'



Of course you can make a tax relief retrospective, that's effectively the State just giving money to a certain group individuals / companies. Big difference between that and retrospectively making something a criminal offence.

(But wow about the Ken Rohan story, had never heard that one before!)


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## cork (9 Jul 2012)

Everone in wiser with hindsight. Yet when you look back at the manifestos of '07 - there was an economic consensus.


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## bazermc (10 Jul 2012)

Why is Biffo still all over the news.  When our own current taoiseach, Enda Kenny, seems to be gone missing again.  He is hardly ever on the news in an interview, doing an opening et etc!


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## bullbars (10 Jul 2012)

This is up there for the "Most toys out of the pram childish thread award". 
The man is studying a course. What of it? If he was seen walking to the shop to buy the paper Knuttell would accuse him of breathing. 

Knuttell, you want politicians to enact a law which will se them face criminal charges for errors made? 
Can you lend me your time machine that gives you a perfect insight in to the future? 

Or just link your post from 1998 - 2007ish showing us unlearned folk how you would have done things differently. 
The power of hindsight is strong in this one.



bazermc said:


> Why is Biffo still all over the news. When our own current taoiseach, Enda Kenny, seems to be gone missing again. He is hardly ever on the news in an interview, doing an opening et etc!


 
Do you want him working or kissing babies and doing soundbites? 

It is obvious why we don't get economic & industrial specialists in to government now. Its a blatant case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. To top that off some want them criminally liable for "mistakes" as well as having no social life and having your past scrutinised and made public. Where does one sign up for this?

If a politician dares tell the electorate the honest truth in a blunt fashion they are voted out at the first oppurtunity only to have a yes man and story teller installed to renege on promises.

Knuttell why havent you contacted Fergus O'Rourke yet?

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=160768


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## PaddyBloggit (10 Jul 2012)

Perhaps he should have studied the course first before he took the country to rack and ruin.

Cowen is entitled to do his course but it's a bit ironic to see what the course is and doubly ironic to see how much it is costing.

The man appears to think that he'll carry on regardless and that he'll pick up some high powered job somewhere.

The man contributed to the mess the country is in while he was Minister for Finance and  in his role as Taoiseach.



bullbars said:


> This is up there for the "Most toys out of the pram childish thread award". The man is studying a course. What of it?


 
(Re. the comment '_Most toys out of the pram childish thread award_' - em ... why? My reasons for posting a new thread are as valid as anybody else who does the same. I posted a link which I thought was important enough to link to. I don't think it was childish to do so. No need to belittle my reasons for doing that.)


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## bullbars (10 Jul 2012)

PaddyBloggit said:


> Perhaps he should have studied the course first before he took the country to rack and ruin.


 
So we should have a minimum educational criteria for those in office? As per my previous post, why would a fully qualified economic expert train and educate themselves and then enter politics where they cannot tell the truth or they'll be voted out, possibly facing criminal charges and at the mercy of the press and public for, in this case, taking another course.



PaddyBloggit said:


> Cowen is entitled to do his course but it's a bit ironic to see what the course is and doubly ironic to see how much it is costing.


What has the cost of it got to do with anything? If it was a free course he'd be lambsted for being a freeloader. 



PaddyBloggit said:


> The man appears to think that he'll carry on regardless .


Should he be made stand on a post with a sign that says " I made mistakes" or just become a recluse altogether? Will that give you your pound of flesh?



PaddyBloggit said:


> and that he'll pick up some high powered job somewhere.


Did he tell you that or is this speculation? Your first sentance states he should have done this course first and then taken up subsequent positions; he is now studying the course, maybe with a view to taking up another position, and here you are again having a go. Make up your mind. 





PaddyBloggit said:


> The man contributed to the mess the country is in while he was Minister for Finance and subsequently in his more important role of Taoiseach.


 contributed does not mean fully responsible. There were mistakes made by the then government, the Public sector ( which is by and large still "in office") and the people. I am no fan of his, bertie, fingleton et al by a long shot but these no sensical threads are full of this type of hang'em all arguments.


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## PaddyBloggit (10 Jul 2012)

bullbars said:


> ..... but these no sensical threads are full of this type of hang'em all arguments.



If threads like these are nonsensical to you then, perhaps, you shouldn't bother contributing to them. We are, after all, entitled to express our opinions.



bullbars said:


> So we should have a minimum educational criteria  for those in office? As per my previous post, why would a fully  qualified economic expert train and educate themselves and then enter  politics where they cannot tell the truth or they'll be voted out,  possibly facing criminal charges and at the mercy of the press and  public for, in this case, taking another course.



If we put monkeys into office we'll get monkey politics. Yes, of course, there should be minimum educational criteria .... even those who go for apprenticeships need to pass an aptitude test. We need competent people running our country - it doesn't matter what party they represent.



bullbars said:


> What has the cost of it got to do with anything? If it was a free course he'd be lambsted for being a freeloader.



Nothing at all if you've got the dosh to pay for it. And he has, courtesy of a handsome payoff/pension.




bullbars said:


> Should he be made stand on a post with a sign that says " I made  mistakes" or just become a recluse altogether? Will that give you your  pound of flesh?



It would be a great start.




bullbars said:


> Did he tell you that or is this speculation? Your first sentance states  he should have done this course first and then taken up subsequent  positions; he is now studying the course, maybe with a view to taking up  another position, and here you are again having a go. Make up your  mind.



I have made up my mind. Cowen et al should have done the course first. He is, however, doing it now. I would reasonably speculate that he is hoping to get a high powered job from it. And, yes, I am having a go.





bullbars said:


> contributed does not mean fully responsible. There were mistakes made  by the then government, the Public sector ( which is by and large still  "in office") and the people. I am no fan of his, bertie, fingleton et al  by a long shot but these no sensical threads are full of this type of  hang'em all arguments.



Yes, I was wrong, I should have said 'responsible' - he was Minister for Finance and he was Taoiseach ... the buck did stop with him. So you are correct, it's not 'contributed' it's 'responsible'.


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## Niall M (10 Jul 2012)

PaddyBloggit said:


> a little bit petty Nial M - ever hear of a typo?



only having a laugh with you...


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## shammy feen (11 Jul 2012)

knuttell said:


> he maybe a private citizen now but a few short years ago this lump of uselessness rode this country off a cliff through utter incompetent mismanagement,so yes i personally have an interest in what hes doing,it sure isn't what i think he should be doing...
> 
> ..that would be 20 years in mountjoy.



+1


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## mandelbrot (11 Jul 2012)

shammy feen said:


> +1


 
-2




(-1 for Shammy, and -1 for Knuttell!)


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## Knuttell (11 Jul 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> -2
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There are quite a few Fianna Failers posting on this thread methinks but you just know they will deny it ad nauseum (who would blame em)

Bad Knuttell and Shammy for having an opinion contrary to mandelbrots and wishing that someone would finally be held responsible for the mess the Country is in... didn't you know its the People what ruined the Country through expecting reasonable oversight and governance in exchange for their vote.


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## mandelbrot (12 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> There are quite a few Fianna Failers posting on this thread methinks but you just know they will deny it ad nauseum (who would blame em)
> 
> Bad Knuttell and Shammy for having an opinion contrary to mandelbrots and wishing that someone would finally be held responsible for the mess the Country is in... didn't you know its the People what ruined the Country through expecting reasonable oversight and governance in exchange for their vote.



Mwaahahaha you are indeed having a larf now my friend - I have got ZERO interest in politics, I'm disillusioned with the whole show TBH. I just think that story was total hack journalism (but I bet someone was happy to get an expenses paid trip to California to get in Cowen's face... maybe there should be an exposé about THAT!!)

My -2 was actually ironic; the point being that Shammy Feen didn't even really bother to express an opinion... I originally had a -1, but then I said I couldn't really give a -1 because I couldn't disagree with Shammy without also disagreeing with you...

But then I thought no-one would understand why it was a -2, so I had to explain it... and now you've ruined it by getting up on your high horse about it! 

Oh and I have no problem saying how I voted in the last 2 elections - I  gave my first 3 votes to Fine Gael and Labour, both times... and then I filled up the rest of the ballot paper in no particular order, making sure that I didn't give Sinn Fein or the Loony left candidate a vote.


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## shammy feen (13 Jul 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> mwaahahaha you are indeed having a larf now my friend - i have got zero interest in politics, i'm disillusioned with the whole show tbh. I just think that story was total hack journalism (but i bet someone was happy to get an expenses paid trip to california to get in cowen's face... Maybe there should be an exposé about that!!)
> 
> my -2 was actually ironic; the point being that shammy feen didn't even really bother to express an opinion... I originally had a -1, but then i said i couldn't really give a -1 because i couldn't disagree with shammy without also disagreeing with you...
> 
> ...


 
-1


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## shammy feen (13 Jul 2012)

Just to give a verbal opinion...I know Brian Cowen is a private citizen and I know hes just spending his "own money" but please remember he has no problem with accepting the pension he is absolutely legally due in spite of the fact that he is one of the prime architects of the ruination of the Irish economy which has resulted in an erosion of Irish sovereignty. Do you remember why all the Fianna Failers "retired" just before the last election because of the personal financial benefits of doing so?

I had to emigrate 2 years ago with my wife and 2 young kids to Australia to find work so please forgive me if my goat gets up when I see people like Cowen spending their legally entitled pension money. I get the feeling hes not as bad to the core as Bertie and Charlie were and I think he has a private contrition for the way things went down in 2007/2008, no doubt deceived by bankers and civil service mandarins, but could you really accept such a huge pension from the irish people in clear concience after doing such an awful job?

The 20 years in Mountjoy thing was a bit tongue in cheek to be honest but some contrition from those responsible would be nice, but its just not in the political makeup of Ireland to be accountable for anything, and that will never change. The people will always be taken for a ride and will never raise a fuss in public. 

Thats the Irish way, our resilience is both our downfall and our triumph...we will put up with almost anything but on the otherhand always rebound from adversity quickly.

Anyway Im off to throw another shrimp on the barbie...

Shammy


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## mandelbrot (13 Jul 2012)

shammy feen said:


> Just to give a verbal opinion...I know Brian Cowen is a private citizen and I know hes just spending his "own money" but please remember he has no problem with accepting the pension he is absolutely legally due in spite of the fact that he is one of the prime architects of the ruination of the Irish economy which has resulted in an erosion of Irish sovereignty. Do you remember why all the Fianna Failers "retired" just before the last election because of the personal financial benefits of doing so?
> 
> I had to emigrate 2 years ago with my wife and 2 young kids to Australia to find work so please forgive me if my goat gets up when I see people like Cowen spending their legally entitled pension money. I get the feeling hes not as bad to the core as Bertie and Charlie were and I think he has a private contrition for the way things went down in 2007/2008, no doubt deceived by bankers and civil service mandarins, but could you really accept such a huge pension from the irish people in clear concience after doing such an awful job?
> 
> ...


 
That's more like it, now you're involved! 

It strikes me as funny you've given me a -1 on my last post, because you then go on to express an opinion quite like my own.

You acknowledge that Cowen wasn't making decisions in some sort of a vacuum; there were plenty of people bending his ear, and in the end he made what many people regard as a wrong decision (bearing in mind that nobody can say for certain what would have happened if that guarantee hadn't been put in place).

I too would like contrition and accountability, but to a certain extent he has been held accountable; his political career appears to be over. To me the pension issue is a different argument - and I find it very hard to believe that many individuals would turn down a pension to which they are legally entitled, even if they don't have a clear conscience. If I felt I had worked hard in a job for 20 years, even if I made a complete stones of something at the end, if I was entitled to a pension then I'd take it.

But none of that alters the fact that the article was total hack journalism - Cowen wasn't advertising that he was over there, they followed him over there in order to print a story to wind people up, and they succeeded. To me, it wasn't newsworthy, I don't care what Brian Cowen does now that he's not an elected public representative anymore.

And just a final mention on accountability; it's now endemic in our culture at all levels that personal accountability / responsibility is only something that applies only to other people:
A child falls and injures themselves while at school or even trespassing on someone else's land - sue the school / landowner (instead of telling them to be more careful, or clip the child around the ear for trespassing).
Get caught drink driving - try to find a technicality to get out of it on.
The list is endless, and perhaps might be a suitable subject for another thread elsewhere, but my point is as a society we're all as bad as each other - some will say that it's because there's no accountability from the top down, but I'm not so sure.


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## shammy feen (13 Jul 2012)

Mandlebrot 

I gave you a -1 because you gave me a -1. 

Frankly I have a childish and mischievous sense of humour even though I have just turned 40. 

It was just a funny response to your previous post. No offense.

Shammy (+2)


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## ontour (18 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> .....wishing that someone would finally be held responsible...



What you are not seeing is that other contributors are not defending Cowen's actions, they are disagreeing with the simplistic view that one elected person can be be held responsible for the state of the country and vilified for life for their government's political decisions.

IMHO the main causes of poor political decision making are the same today as they were 5 years ago.


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## Knuttell (18 Jul 2012)

ontour said:


> they are disagreeing with the simplistic view *that one elected person can be be held responsible for the state of the country and vilified for life for their government's political decisions.*



How is it simplistic to expect that someone takes responsibility for the utter mess that this Country is in?

How is it simplistic to expect that someone be held accountable for bankrupting the State?

Its that sort of half witted nonsense that allows the likes of Clowen to retire on pension of €130k a year while the rest of us foot the bill for his incompetence through property taxes water charges...

ah look I am throwing my hat at this,any one with any gumption has probably left this Country a long time ago,all that's left are the bleating sheeple,we got the leaders we deserved,enjoy their legacy.


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## ontour (19 Jul 2012)

Knuttell said:


> How is it simplistic to expect that someone takes responsibility for the utter mess that this Country is in?  How is it simplistic to expect that someone be held accountable for bankrupting the State?



The state of the country is as a result of the policy decisions of elected and unelected officials over very many years.  It is as a result of a media stoked property boom.  It is as a result of our membership of the EU. It is as a result of the impact of common eurozone interest rates. And all that is just for a start.




Knuttell said:


> Its that sort of half witted nonsense that allows the likes of Clowen to retire on pension of €130k a year while the rest of us foot the bill for his incompetence through property taxes water charges...



Who put him there?  Property taxes and water charges should have been implemented long ago.  Don't get me wrong, the amount of the pension is ridiculous, as are the levels of pay for many state paid jobs.



Knuttell said:


> ah look I am throwing my hat at this,any one with any gumption has probably left this Country a long time ago,all that's left are the bleating sheeple,we got the leaders we deserved,enjoy their legacy.



I agree that we got the leaders that we deserved but I disagree that the country is left with bleating sheeple.  It has plenty of whingers looking for someone to blame or wanting to put all the problems down to the bank guarantee or saying that 'we didn't cause this mess'.  A generation ago most people would have dusted themselves off and worked ridiculously hard to get out of this mess.  Instead we now have lots of people who moan as taxpayers subsidise their poor decision making during the boom and in many cases their continued poor decision making.


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