# Hotel charged for a no show.. took cc from a previous stay??



## indebtedgal

Hope some of you can advise on this. 

Last year when checking out of a hotel after an annual event i asked receptionist to hold a room for the event this year again, as i always do. 

Subsequently, this year i did not go to the event and yesterday i got a call from the hotel telling me they had charged the credit card with the cost of the room. 

I should point out that at no stage this year did hotel contact me to confirm booking or did i get confirmation of the booking in writing which i do every year. When i made the provisional reservation i certainly would not have given them the credit card details so what they obviously have done is taken the payment from the card used to pay bill last year, which was the card belong to a friend of mine and not my own!

She can't access her cc statement online so waiting till tomorrow to ring MBNA to confirm this was card used but we are fairly sure it was. 

Does anyone know if i have a leg to stand on here? 

I worked in loads of hotels in my time and we would never have done this. 

Aside from this issue both the receptionist and general manager were very rude and I'd go as far as saying aggressive towards me!


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## Leper

You asked them to hold a room for you.  This is a verbal contract to book a room.  The room was held for you and you did not cancel. The hotel acted within its rights.

I cannot comment on the aggression bit as I did not hear what you said to them and what they said to you.


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## indebtedgal

i thought this might be the situation but i am just wondering were they right to charge a card that wasn't mine??


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## Complainer

It's not a clear-cut case. Obviously, you should have cancelled the booking. But they should also have confirmed the cancellation policy at some stage. There may be data protection issues around their retention of the credit card details, as they really shouldn't be holding these for ever, or for purposes other than which they were originally given, i.e. the original booking.

Would the hotel have been full on the night in question, i.e. are they out of pocket as a result of your booking? Perhaps you should try to negotiate a settlement, and you can mention 'small claims court' and 'data protection commissioner' to bolster your case.


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## Brendan Burgess

I would go along with Leper.

The big issue here is that you booked a room and did not cancel or show.

You owe them the money. 

Brendan


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## meatmonger

booked

didn't cancel

pay up

image you actually did turn up and there was no room.  where would they stand then.  so of course they kept a room for you.


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## WIFESLIST

Did'nt somebody famous once say that a verbal agreemment was'nt worth the paper it was written on. Surley if you booked a room 12 mths ago, verbally, the hotel should have at least confirmed the booking with you first, even more so if they were going to be booked out. Personally given the current climate i'd say that they werent full and this is a way of generating some easy money.


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## MandaC

To be fair, if it is an annual event, there are many people who would book from one year to the next, so I dont think that would be odd.

Also, if it were an annual event, they would be busy on the night in question and in fairness have held a room for you.

I do think they should have sent you an email prior to this confirming your reservation though.

I would try and negotiate a settlement with them, but in fairness, I do think they are owed because you made the booking and did not cancel.


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## Ruam

Whatever about the rights or wrongs of having to pay for the hotel, the owner of the credit card has a right to her money back as she didn't give the hotel permission to use the card.  She may have given it last year but that doesn't give them the right to take money out this year.

Ruam


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## WIFESLIST

Ruam said:


> Whatever about the rights or wrongs of having to pay for the hotel, the owner of the credit card has a right to her money back as she didn't give the hotel permission to use the card. She may have given it last year but that doesn't give them the right to take money out this year.
> 
> Ruam


 i have to agree there.but surely you should only be liable for abookine deposit and not the full amount


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## Padraigb

WIFESLIST said:


> ...but surely you should only be liable for abookine deposit and not the full amount



It depends on the terms and conditions that the hotel applies to bookings.

Personally, I have no sympathy for "no-shows". If you change your mind, or something crops up, it's usually not too difficult to phone a hotel (or restaurant, or whatever) to cancel. Booking, and not honouring the booking, denies the hotel an opportunity to sell the room to somebody else and, indeed, denies somebody else the opportunity to get a room.


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## Complainer

Padraigb said:


> It depends on the terms and conditions that the hotel applies to bookings.


Surely the T&C's must be communicated to the customer to be effective?


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## Smashbox

OP, why didn't you actually show up after booking the hotel, and not letting them know you wouldnt be showing? I'd be interested to hear your reasons.

Perhaps this room was secured on the card that you used at the time, which evidently it seems has happened.


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## Padraigb

Complainer said:


> Surely the T&C's must be communicated to the customer to be effective?



Not necessarily in a case like this. It seems to me to be reasonably self-evident that if you book a room and do not cancel that booking, then you have to pay for it whether you use it or not.

I often book accommodation online, and always check the T&Cs. It's fairly standard that no-shows are charged the full price of the room, at least for the first night.


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## indebtedgal

Smashbox said:


> OP, why didn't you actually show up after booking the hotel, and not letting them know you wouldnt be showing? I'd be interested to hear your reasons.
> 
> Perhaps this room was secured on the card that you used at the time, which evidently it seems has happened.


 

Got pregnant, and have 9 week old twins to look after!!! Social life gone out the window, and sleep deprivation and baby brain in!!


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## shesells

Two separate issues. You didn't cancel so it's fairly standard that there is a cancellation fee equivalent to at least one nights fees. That is your responsibility. Your friend can initiate a chargeback through her credit card company but it would appear to me that the hotel are within their rights to seek payment from you.


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## Petal

I'd say when you made the verbal booking they put it on file together with the CC details that were given to them the previous year, they probably assumed that was the CC to be used to guarantee the reservation. One way or the other I think you probably have to pay up.


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## WIFESLIST

Petal said:


> I'd say when you made the verbal booking they put it on file together with the CC details that were given to them the previous year, they probably assumed that was the CC to be used to guarantee the reservation. One way or the other I think you probably have to pay up.


 IM sorry but i dont agree .if i had a pound /€ for every one who told me they wanted me to do a kitchen for them id be a very rich man.IF you dont get the deposit you dont have the job.Likewise if they did'nt take or inform you of a deposit or the need to take one then THEY DONT have your booking.


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## oldnick

I don't understand wifeslist's point - are you saying that because people have entered into a contract with you and then gone back on their word then it's O.K. to do likewise to others ?  - that without a payment then there's no deal/contract/booking ? 
I imagine that legally and morally you're wrong.

( mind you, in this case the hotel could argue that they did have a pre-payment in the form of the cc details, though I don't know about the legalities of owners permission )


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## sandrat

I guess you get the owner of the card to ring up the hotel querying the charge. I still think you should have to pay though because they kept a room for you as you requested


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## Smashbox

sandrat said:


> I still think you should have to pay though because they kept a room for you as you requested


 
I definatly agree with Sandrat on this one. You asked for the room, it was obviously kept for you, and the onus was on you to cancel.


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## Bronte

You booked a room and didn't cancel therefore you owe whatever the no show fee is.  You can appeal to their better nature by explaining the circumstances.  

They cannot charge the credit card if not authorised to do so, so your friend can get the charge refunded.


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## minion

They have effectively stolen money from your friends credit card.  Regardless of any deal you may have made with them.

Tell her to call the credit card company and tell them that a transaction that she did not initiate has resulted in money being taken illegally from her card.


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## S.L.F

WIFESLIST said:


> IM sorry but i dont agree .if i had a pound /€ for every one who told me they wanted me to do a kitchen for them id be a very rich man.IF you dont get the deposit you dont have the job.Likewise if they did'nt take or inform you of a deposit or the need to take one then THEY DONT have your booking.


 
I have to agree with WIFELIST here, maybe it is a different story with hotels but in my business I expect deposit before I'll mark it in my book.

Until money passes hands there is no deal.

Anyway surely the hotel would get in touch with the OP first to remind her of the booking.


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## Padraigb

S.L.F said:


> I have to agree with WIFELIST here, maybe it is a different story with hotels but in my business I expect deposit before I'll mark it in my book.
> 
> Until money passes hands there is no deal.
> 
> Anyway surely the hotel would get in touch with the OP first to remind her of the booking.



I just about never pay a deposit on a hotel room: that's the norm in the business. When I make a booking, there is a deal. A contract exists. When I turn up, I expect a room of the type I booked to be ready for me; the hotelier expects me to pay the agreed price for the room -- normally, at the end of my stay. I don't normally contact the hotel to remind them, nor do I expect them to contact me. 

This type of arrangement works for most people.


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## Smashbox

I have to say I would go along with Padraig there, I've never paid a deposit either.

If you booked a room and a year later you turned up to have no room kept, I'd be pretty annoyed.


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## Complainer

Smashbox said:


> If you booked a room and a year later you turned up to have no room kept, I'd be pretty annoyed.



If they secured a booking with a credit card without telling me, and then debited a cancellation fee to that card, I'd be pretty annoyed to.



Padraigb said:


> I just about never pay a deposit on a hotel room: that's the norm in the business. When I make a booking, there is a deal. A contract exists.


The norm in the business is to ask the customer for a credit card to secure the booking. This gives a clear indication to the customer that there is a financial impact of making the booking. The hotel failed to ask for this, and therefore had no right to charge the card in question. Indeed, they probably broke Data Protection legislation by retaining the credit card information for longer than necesary.


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## Padraigb

Complainer said:


> If they secured a booking with a credit card without telling me, and then debited a cancellation fee to that card, I'd be pretty annoyed to.
> 
> The norm in the business is to ask the customer for a credit card to secure the booking. This gives a clear indication to the customer that there is a financial impact of making the booking. The hotel failed to ask for this, and therefore had no right to charge the card in question. Indeed, they probably broke Data Protection legislation by retaining the credit card information for longer than necesary.



Somebody checks out; a credit card is used to pay the bill; at the same time, a booking is made for the same event next year. It seems reasonable for the hotelier to link the credit card with the booking.

I think OP is being a bit disingenuous in morphing from "i asked receptionist to hold a room for the event this year again" to "the provisional reservation".

Perhaps I am a bit old-fashioned: I operate the basis that a deal should be honoured; if I want to cancel or re-arrange, I think it is incumbent on me to take the appropriate steps.


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## Smashbox

Padraigb said:


> Somebody checks out; a credit card is used to pay the bill; at the same time, a booking is made for the same event next year. It seems reasonable for the hotelier to link the credit card with the booking.


 
This would be my thinking


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## Billo

Never borrow a credit card from a friend, or lend one either.


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## WIFESLIST

oldnick said:


> I don't understand wifeslist's point - are you saying that because people have entered into a contract with you and then gone back on their word then it's O.K. to do likewise to others ? - that without a payment then there's no deal/contract/booking ?
> I imagine that legally and morally you're wrong.
> 
> ( mind you, in this case the hotel could argue that they did have a pre-payment in the form of the cc details, though I don't know about the legalities of owners permission )


 SORRY my point was that when i started in business for myself many years ago, i nieavly believed that when i sat down in front of someone and they told me i had the job(kitchen) that i did have it, only to be dissapointed later when of course they would'nt ring or answer you back.Therefore i learned the hard way that if you dont get the deposit or signature then (as any salesman wil tell you) you have no sale


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## Complainer

I'm not suggesting the OP is blameless in this case, but like most cases, there are two sides to the story.



Padraigb said:


> Somebody checks out; a credit card is used to pay the bill; at the same time, a booking is made for the same event next year. It seems reasonable for the hotelier to link the credit card with the booking.


Somehow, I doubt if the Data Protection Commissioner will think it all that reasonable for hotelier to do this without so much as a 'what credit card should I use to secure this booking'?


Padraigb said:


> Perhaps I am a bit old-fashioned: I operate the basis that a deal should be honoured; if I want to cancel or re-arrange, I think it is incumbent on me to take the appropriate steps.


What deal? That's exactly my point. There was no deal that the hotelier could charge for no-shows. Any deal needs to be up front and on the table. There was no such deal in this case.

Perphaps I'm a bit old-fashioned, but I don't expect a business to put their hand in my pocket and take my money, unless such a deal has been agreed up front.


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## B1rchboy

I've got a question along the same lines, can anyone help?

My partner and i recently went to Barcelona and decided to book a hotel. We tried to do this on line and went through the process including entering our card details, however when clicking proceed an error message came up saying the system was down. We tried this over a week before we went and ended up booking another hotel instead.
On returning home i had 2 e-mail's from the hotel we tried to book, one confirming the booking we didn't actually make (this was e-mailed a day before we left) and one telling us that they were charging us for the no show as we didn't cancel within 48 hours. We e-mailed the hotel explaining the situation but they were unwilling to do anything.
Is there anything we can do? I'd really appreciate some advice?

Thanks


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## minion

B1rchboy said:


> I've got a question along the same lines, can anyone help?
> 
> My partner and i recently went to Barcelona and decided to book a hotel. We tried to do this on line and went through the process including entering our card details, however when clicking proceed an error message came up saying the system was down. We tried this over a week before we went and ended up booking another hotel instead.
> On returning home i had 2 e-mail's from the hotel we tried to book, one confirming the booking we didn't actually make (this was e-mailed a day before we left) and one telling us that they were charging us for the no show as we didn't cancel within 48 hours. We e-mailed the hotel explaining the situation but they were unwilling to do anything.
> Is there anything we can do? I'd really appreciate some advice?
> 
> Thanks




Ring your CC company and dispute the charge.  Send them the email exchanges.


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## sidyid

I am amazed at some of the replies here, I have been in the hotel business for a long time in Spain, when I first purchased my hotel here we used to get Spanish pre book a room with us and then book a room with 2 other hotels for the same night, they would do this because they did not know which hotel would suit them better....needless to say I and other hotels had many no-shows, we all got together and now take full payment at the time of booking but for the Spanish only, other nationalities we either take a deposit at the time of booking or ask for card details, if someone refuses then we refuse to hold a room for them and they can then turn up and just hope a room is available, however, nobody now ever refuses or questions this, my terms and conditions are clear on my websites.
We also own an activity centre which offers quad bike tours, mountain bike days etc etc, I never take a booking without taking a credit card as security, I have had to take full payment many times for no shows and have never had a problem doing this with the customer.
Why should I lose a booking/income because of the rudeness and bad manners of others?
If I booked anything and couldn´t honour the booking then I would cancel that booking, not always possible because of the circumstances at the time but I would expect tp pay rather than see the other guy out of pocket.


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## silverwake

> I am amazed at some of the replies here, I have been in the hotel  business for a long time in Spain, when I first purchased my hotel here  we used to get Spanish pre book a room with us and then book a room with  2 other hotels for the same night, they would do this because they did  not know which hotel would suit them better....needless to say I and  other hotels had many no-shows, we all got together *and now take full  payment at the time of booking but for the Spanish only, other  nationalities we either take a deposit at the time of booking or ask for  card details*, if someone refuses then we refuse to hold a room for them  and they can then turn up and just hope a room is available, however,  nobody now ever refuses or questions this, my terms and conditions are  clear on my websites.



I found that a bit offensive.
I would like to know which hotels you manage not to book those by mistake, honestly.


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## Locke

WIFESLIST said:


> IM sorry but i dont agree .if i had a pound /€ for every one who told me they wanted me to do a kitchen for them id be a very rich man.IF you dont get the deposit you dont have the job.Likewise if they did'nt take or inform you of a deposit or the need to take one then THEY DONT have your booking.


 
Not true. Plenty of Hotels do not take deposits, simply the Credit Card number to gaurentee the booking.


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## Complainer

sidyid said:


> needless to say I and other hotels had many no-shows, we all got together and now take full payment at the time of booking but for the Spanish only, other nationalities we either take a deposit at the time of booking or ask for card details,


You probably broke two sets of legislation with your action here. You probably broke equality legislation by discriminating against somebody based on their nationality, and you probably broke competition law by collaborating with your supposed competitors in this way.


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## T McGibney

Complainer said:


> , and you probably broke competition law by collaborating with your supposed competitors in this way.



Really? Competition law forbids price-fixing, it hardly forbids competitors from pooling management expertise or sharing business strategy ideas for any other mutually-beneficial objective?


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## Complainer

T McGibney said:


> Really? Competition law forbids price-fixing, it hardly forbids competitors from pooling management expertise or sharing business strategy ideas for any other mutually-beneficial objective?


I'm not an expert, but have a look at [broken link removed]



> *The Competition Act 2002*
> 
> The Competition Act 2002 contains two main prohibitions:
> 
> 
> Section 4(1) prohibits and renders void _"all agreements  between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and  concerted practices which have as their object or effect the prevention,  restriction or distortion of competition in trade in any goods or  services in the State or in any part of the State"._  The Act lists some specific types of behaviour which are expressly prohibited. These include agreements which:
> fix prices;
> limit or control production or markets;
> share markets or sources of supply;
> *apply dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties;* or
> attach supplementary obligations to a commercial  contract which have nothing to do with the subject of the contract (e.g.  tying).


From what I can see, putting a particular restriction on bookings from Spanish customers, but not other customers is applying 'dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions'. This isn't a case of pooling management expertise or sharing business strategy. It is about applying a particular restriction on one set of customers by arrangement with other service providers.

One might ask why this change was done by arrangement with the other hoteliers? The answer is of course to avoid the possibility that one hotel would NOT apply the restriction and would get more business as a result. That is anti-competitive.


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## Mongola

Regarding a point made above: hotels do not always take deposits: they just hold your CC details so that in case of no show or damages, they can cover themselves. 

While I agree that the hotel should have sent you a written confirmation, (which they may/might have done and you have forgotten about),how did you expect them to hold the room for you? It may not have been your CC, but this must be the card you used when checking out that time. 

As it was mentioned above, if it had been the opposite, you showing up at the hotel with no resa on their side, you will be here, giving out abt that hotel!

You knew you had it booked. at your own request,(as every year), you were supposed to attend that event but did not in the end...I think you simply forgot to cancel it. 

You have asked them, they did what you asked them to do. While you may feel "cheated", I think the hotel was aboslutely correct in taking the first night's price as compensation for a no show!


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## T McGibney

Complainer said:


> I'm not an expert, but have a look at [broken link removed]
> 
> From what I can see, putting a particular restriction on bookings from  Spanish customers, but not other customers is applying 'dissimilar  conditions to equivalent transactions'. This isn't a case of pooling  management expertise or sharing business strategy. It is about applying a  particular restriction on one set of customers by arrangement with  other service providers.
> 
> One might ask why this change was done by arrangement with the other  hoteliers? The answer is of course to avoid the possibility that one  hotel would NOT apply the restriction and would get more business as a  result. That is anti-competitive.



If you read Article 102 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (the EU legislation from which the Irish Competition Act is derived) you will note that the provision you have cited relates to only cases involving abuse by operators of a dominant position within a market.  

Its hard to see how a uniform bookings policy adopted in common amongst a network of hoteliers could amount to 'an abuse of a dominant position', not least due to the fragmented nature of the hotel sector. 

Anyway, Irish Competition legislation hardly applies to Spanish hotels?



> Any abuse by one or more undertakings of a dominant position within the internal market or in a substantial part of it shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market in so far as it may affect trade between Member States.
> Such abuse may, in particular, consist in:
> (a) directly or indirectly imposing unfair purchase or selling prices or other unfair trading conditions;
> (b) limiting production, markets or technical development to the prejudice of consumers;
> (c) applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage;
> (d) making the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.


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## Complainer

Again, I'm not an expert, but the 'dissimilar conditions' limitation also applies under Article 101, which is not limited to abuse of dominant positions. But you're right, Irish legislation wouldn't apply - who knows if the Spanish have implemented the articles to the same extent.


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## Leper

I visit  Spain at least five times per year and I rent a car each time.  I have never had an accident.  Some of the Spanish car rental companies have it as policy to charge a deposit to Irish renters (I kid you not).  There is no point in arguing with them, it's in their terms and conditions that they can charge deposits against anybody they wish.

Of course, it's racist, but that doesn't bother them.


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## onq

Where do you draw the line between price-fixing and prices finding a level - is it just that in one case you at looking across the street to see what prices your competitor is charging and in the other you ring him up and have a conversation about what price you should both be charging? It seems like a gray area.


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## Complainer

onq said:


> Where do you draw the line between price-fixing and prices finding a level - is it just that in one case you at looking across the street to see what prices your competitor is charging and in the other you ring him up and have a conversation about what price you should both be charging? It seems like a gray area.



Like I said, I'm not an expert, but as I understand it, any conversation with a competitor about what price you should be charging or what other terms of business should apply is in breach of competition law.

Like many other corporate laws, it is probably quite difficult to prove breaches of law, and I presume the CA prioritise their activities on the cases where the impacts are high and the evidence is good. They've had recent cases on the car industry and the cement industry.


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## onq

I agree that the tarring of an entire nationality with the one brush is poor form. Spain, like anywhere else, has the full spectrum of people - there is certainly no predominance of sharp practice from there that I'm aware of.


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## T McGibney

onq said:


> I agree that the tarring of an entire nationality with the one brush is poor form. Spain, like anywhere else, has the full spectrum of people - there is certainly no predominance of sharp practice from there that I'm aware of.



I think you might be missing the point of what was being discussed here, ie a Spanish hotel operating a 'full payment' booking policy for Spanish residents. This sort of policy is quite common in France also (for French residents).


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