# Social Etiquette - Business Idea



## Leper (10 Mar 2013)

Going on Ali's post on another thread in which the eating habits of the Irish are challenged, I reckon there is an opening for somebody to give day/night classes on social etiquette. The subjects could include in no particular order:-

Proper laying of a table.[How often does a laid table look like a collection of second hand or charity shop bought items?]

What cutlery to use and in correct order. [Looking at people looking at each other trying to decide whether this knife or that should be used is quite entertaining].

What correct cutlery is used for each dish. [Another pitfall].

How to use cutlery.[When you see a guy holding a knife and fork as if he had a lump hammer in each hand is cringe worthy].

Table-napkins are provided for protection of clothes, not to be stuffed down your pants.

How to dress for whatever occasion. [Don't get me started].

The art of eating without noise with your mouth closed and slowly is not too difficult to learn. [Nothing more entertaining that seeing a seniority promoted manager disgracing himself/herself gorging food showing gnashers like the baddie in Lion King and eating like a new famine was coming].

If there is no "Red" sauce, it is not the end of the world.

Acceptable behaviour i.e. arriving on time.[unfortunately, arriving late has become acceptable in Ireland, even 2 hours late].

What to say and how to say it.[Minefield].

What not to say. [Like the song says:- When will we ever learn . . .]

When the night should end. [Another change of custom required].

How to shake hands. [Nothing like the limp handshake of Premiership Managers after a match!]

There is a nice little earner for somebody and forgive me if this is being done already. I know of some business managers who attended classes on how to improve diction, stance, grammar etc. In these days of multiple and communal interviews I would think that proper social table etiquette is required.


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## bullbars (10 Mar 2013)

Please add - Formal letter writing. 

I blame email and text messaging for the downfall of some peoples inability to construct sentences that don't require the use of an enigma machine to decipher them. I know of man who sent an email invitation to a foreign embassy starting with "Howdy Folks"......

Edit: I am guilty of gesturing with my cutlery during a discussion at dinner. I need to tether my arms down at times I think.


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## Purple (10 Mar 2013)

I hate seeing people holding their knife like it's a pen. It's one of my pet hates.

Don't cut your bread; break it.

Don't put your elbows on the table.

Don't tell everyone what you don't eat; just order your food.

Don't start eating until everyone is served.

Don't over fill wine glasses.

If your nose is blocked then go and blow it, don’t spend the meal breathing loudly through it or mouth-breathing around lumps of half chewed food.

Don’t tell racist, sexist or vulgar jokes to people you don’t know.

Never use bad language in a business setting.


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## becky (10 Mar 2013)

bullbars said:


> Please add - Formal letter writing.
> 
> I blame email and text messaging for the downfall of some peoples inability to construct sentences that don't require the use of an enigma machine to decipher them. I know of man who sent an email invitation to a foreign embassy starting with "Howdy Folks"......
> 
> Edit: I am guilty of gesturing with my cutlery during a discussion at dinner. I need to tether my arms down at times I think.



I agree on email.  I get a lot everyday but senior managers are copied on so many unnecessary ones, they could just spend the whole day reading them.

I hate getting a mail of just one paragraph.  My biggest bugbear (and I have a few) is no subject.

On Lepers idea, it good on paper but I think everyone will know of people who should attend but the take up will be low.


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## Crugers (10 Mar 2013)

bullbars said:


> ...i blame email and text messaging for the downfall of some peoples inability to construct sentences that don't require the use of an enigma machine to decipher them....


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## amtc (11 Mar 2013)

I was in the Tea Rooms in the Clarence Hotel once at a business meeting, and was having dinner - I cut the meat, then put down my knife and swapped fork to right hand - waiter came over and corrected me in front of my client. Never been back since. 

Agree with formal letter writing - when to use yours faithfully and yours sincerely.

My favourite is the one where you walk upstairs behind a  lady and downstairs in front - to break her fall, should this occur.

Oh, and one passes the port to the left (I discovered this recently!)


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## TarfHead (11 Mar 2013)

amtc said:


> My favourite is the one where you walk upstairs behind a lady and downstairs in front - to break her fall, should this occur.


 
Apparently, when walking along a footpath with a woman, the man should be on the street side of the path to 'shield' the lady from puddle splashes.

We were in a restaurant yesterday for Mother's Day. I heard the waitress call out the choices for kids, burger/sausage/nuggets and chips. How can an adult attitude to food be fostered when restaurants pander to the lowest common denominator ? How hard can it be to do smaller portions of what's on the adult menu ?


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## Firefly (11 Mar 2013)

TarfHead said:


> Apparently, when walking along a footpath with a woman, the man should be on the street side of the path to 'shield' the lady from puddle splashes.



The man should also hold the lady's hand with her standing on the left so that he can draw his sword if needs be


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## Purple (11 Mar 2013)

amtc said:


> I was in the Tea Rooms in the Clarence Hotel once at a business meeting, and was having dinner - I cut the meat, then put down my knife and swapped fork to right hand - waiter came over and corrected me in front of my client. Never been back since.


He was correct, but shouldn't have corrected you


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## becky (11 Mar 2013)

Purple said:


> I hate seeing people holding their knife like it's a pen. It's one of my pet hates.
> 
> Don't cut your bread; break it.



Do you mean a crusty roll?  I was out recently and had soup to start with brown bread.  I suppose to cut these as I like them all to be the same size.


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## Purple (11 Mar 2013)

becky said:


> Do you mean a crusty roll?  I was out recently and had soup to start with brown bread.  I suppose to cut these as I like them all to be the same size.



Any roll. Sliced bread... I'm not sure.


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## micmclo (12 Mar 2013)

Leper said:


> How to shake hands. [Nothing like the limp handshake of Premiership Managers after a match!]


 
A topic that too much time to spent on, a handshake doesn't matter.

If I walk into any garage in Ireland the car salesman is going to give me a firm handshake as he is sales staff. It doesn't mean I trust him at all as I know he is going to gloss over details to get me to buy.

A weak handshake doesn't mean anything.
And a bone crushing handshake doesn't mean confidence.

There are youtube videos all about the subject which I'm sure business executives and Alan Sugar wannabes watch.
Coverying topics like trying to be "top dog" and grasping the others persons arm also. 
George Bush was always at this, other politicians do it too. Now that I think of it the bould Bertie was another man for the firm handshake and the slap on the back




Leper said:


> If there is no "Red" sauce, it is not the end of the world.


 
Yes it is


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## Boyd (12 Mar 2013)

Ireland (and the world in general) have far bigger problems than "Social etiquette problems"..........

"Don't put your elbows on the table." Jeez who really cares


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## truthseeker (12 Mar 2013)

Purple said:


> If your nose is blocked then go and blow it, don’t spend the meal breathing loudly through it or mouth-breathing around lumps of half chewed food.



As a sufferer of sinus problems including nasal polyps I can assure you that no matter how blocked my nose is, simply blowing it wont do anything - except block it even more. Its not blocked with anything that can be blown out, the membranes inside the sinus cavity are swollen and inflamed. I could blow and blow until I blow bits of brain right out - but no joy.


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## Purple (12 Mar 2013)

username123 said:


> Ireland (and the world in general) have far bigger problems than "Social etiquette problems"..........


Did anyone suggets otherwise?


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## Purple (12 Mar 2013)

truthseeker said:


> As a sufferer of sinus problems including nasal polyps I can assure you that no matter how blocked my nose is, simply blowing it wont do anything - except block it even more. Its not blocked with anything that can be blown out, the membranes inside the sinus cavity are swollen and inflamed. I could blow and blow until I blow bits of brain right out - but no joy.



Yea, but would you sniff your way through a bisiness meeting?


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## Purple (12 Mar 2013)

Firefly said:


> The man should also hold the lady's hand with her standing on the left so that he can draw his sword if needs be



Very important, that.


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## mandelbrot (12 Mar 2013)

Wow, this thread confirms what I had already suspected about several of the posters here, and surprises me about a few more.

I found this poorly constructed sentence from Bullbars to be the pick of the snobnoxious bunch though...! "_I blame email and text messaging for the downfall of some peoples inability to construct sentences that don't require the use of an enigma machine to decipher them._" (Though I do actually agree with the point I think he's making.)


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## TarfHead (12 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> .. of the snobnoxious bunch though..


 
You make it sound like a bad thing  ?


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## mandelbrot (12 Mar 2013)

Just to give my own personal perspective on it:



Leper said:


> Going on Ali's post on another thread in which the eating habits of the Irish are challenged, I reckon there is an opening for somebody to give day/night classes on social etiquette. The subjects could include in no particular order:-
> 
> Proper laying of a table.[How often does a laid table look like a collection of second hand or charity shop bought items?] _- *I couldn't care less, once I have the necessary implements.*_
> 
> ...


 
Since you seem to have such a fetish about table manners and cutlery, do you know who invented the various pieces of cutlery, and can you imagine the historical quivalent of you sneering at the upstart who broke with convention. With attitudes like yours the world would still be flat!


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## Sue Ellen (12 Mar 2013)

Lads/Lasses,

Life's too short to be worrying about all these small matters worry about the important things when needs be and chill out in the meantime


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## Firefly (12 Mar 2013)

Purple said:


> Don't cut your bread; break it.



And only butter the piece/slice you are about to eat.

Re: eating  soup: Put your spoon in the bowl and move it away from you (tilting the bowl if necessary away from you also).


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## truthseeker (12 Mar 2013)

Purple said:


> Yea, but would you sniff your way through a bisiness meeting?



Yeah, I had to sniff my way through all aspects of life for a good few years there until the a consultant in his infinite wisdom decided to operate on me last year. Im still sniffy, but not nearly as much.


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## Betsy Og (12 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> With attitudes like yours the world would still be flat!


 
Before serving, one should always chill the beans.......


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## Ceist Beag (12 Mar 2013)

Don't mind all that malarky. Here's my alternative list.

Dip your bread in your soup making sure to leave some behind to mop up the last bits.
Wipe your mouth with your sleeve, it's going in the wash that night anyway and saves the hosts on having to wash napkins.
A belch after a course is a complement to the chef.
Asking if you can finish the leftovers of others is just being thoughtful, no point good food going to waste.
Let the hosts off to bed if they're looking tired, just promise you'll pull the door after you on the way out.


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## Leper (12 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> Just to give my own personal perspective on it:
> 
> 
> 
> Since you seem to have such a fetish about table manners and cutlery, do you know who invented the various pieces of cutlery, and can you imagine the historical quivalent of you sneering at the upstart who broke with convention. With attitudes like yours the world would still be flat!


 
Thanks for that Mandelbrot; I'm sure with weird views like yours, you will be a certainty for entry into some forthcoming Come Dine With Me.


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## mandelbrot (12 Mar 2013)

Leper said:


> Thanks for that Mandelbrot; I'm sure with weird views like yours, you will be a certainty for entry into some forthcoming Come Dine With Me.


 
Equally I could say that with old-fashioned snobbish views like yours, you'd be a shoo-in for the obligatory pompous fart on the same show... it'd make for great viewing I'm sure. (Except that I wouldn't be seen dead on any form of reality TV)

Edit: Sorry, just to clarify, TV is what us young folk occasionally call the television for short these days Leper


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## amtc (13 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> Equally I could say that with old-fashioned snobbish views like yours, you'd be a shoo-in for the obligatory pompous fart on the same show... it'd make for great viewing I'm sure. (Except that I wouldn't be seen dead on any form of reality TV)
> 
> Edit: Sorry, just to clarify, TV is what us young folk occasionally call the television for short these days Leper



just to be pedantic - it should be 'we' young folk!


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## mandelbrot (13 Mar 2013)

amtc said:


> just to be pedantic - it should be 'we' young folk!


 
Oh but no, I meant US (as in American)!!


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## Leper (13 Mar 2013)

Once again, Mandlebrot, thanks for an incisive post. One thing Lepers have in common is that they cannot afford to be snobs. But, everyone to his own . . .

Correct social behaviour is declining and worse again the main offenders dont think they are in any way short of the mark. It's like the guys wreaking in unhealthy bodily smells not being able to smell themselves while nearby others cringe with embarrassment for the 'offenders.'

Likewise, some find it acceptable to place elbows on tables while eating. OK this is not the end of the world. But, what if somebody put their feet on the table? One man's sauce is another's poison. I am not trying to make a case for Mrs Bucket (Bouquet or whatever) here, but I think we should have some kind of plimsol line that we should not descend from.

However, I reckon there is space for a nice little earner here. I dont mean somebody running into the nearest industrial estate to rent space at high rent. Rachel Khoo started a restaurant in central Paris from her one bedroom flat. Her eatery became famous and she got a television series out of her efforts which cost nearly nothing. It is the same here, somebody with a good business sense can service the upwardly mobile market quite cheaply and for a lot of gain.


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## Firefly (13 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> Equally I could say that with old-fashioned snobbish views like yours



Just out of interest, why do you equate proper etiquette with being snobby?


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## Tintagel (13 Mar 2013)

truthseeker said:


> As a sufferer of sinus problems including nasal polyps I can assure you that no matter how blocked my nose is, simply blowing it wont do anything - except block it even more. Its not blocked with anything that can be blown out, the membranes inside the sinus cavity are swollen and inflamed. I could blow and blow until I blow bits of brain right out - but no joy.


 
Try fresh Pineapple. Available in most stores at just over a €. Helps me.


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## truthseeker (13 Mar 2013)

Tintagel said:


> Try fresh Pineapple. Available in most stores at just over a €. Helps me.



Eat it or sniff it


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## TarfHead (13 Mar 2013)

Leper said:


> .. I reckon there is an opening for somebody to give day/night classes on social etiquette. The subjects could include ..


 
Maybe something on resisting the urge to vehemently express hostile disagreement with opinions posted on a message board, especially ones in a section titled 'Shooting the Breeze' ?


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## Purple (13 Mar 2013)

truthseeker said:


> Yeah, I had to sniff my way through all aspects of life for a good few years there until the a consultant in his infinite wisdom decided to operate on me last year. Im still sniffy, but not nearly as much.



Sorry to hear that, I'm glad things have improved.


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## Purple (13 Mar 2013)

TarfHead said:


> Maybe something on resisting the urge to vehemently express hostile disagreement with opinions posted on a message board, especially ones in a section titled 'Shooting the Breeze' ?




Well said.


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## Purple (13 Mar 2013)

Firefly said:


> Just out of interest, why do you equate proper etiquette with being snobby?



Good question.


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## mandelbrot (13 Mar 2013)

Firefly said:


> Just out of interest, why do you equate proper etiquette with being snobby?


 
Because most of the "issues" described on here have no functional purpose other than to attempt to impose conformity for the sake of it on people. I would have thought that we live in a slightly more enlightened world now, where we can appreciate and respect the right of an individual to be individual.

I fail to see how / why anyone could be bothered by someone choosing to eat with the fork in their right hand - I suspect the existing convention was put in place as part of attempts to "correct" the behaviour of left-handed people, but may be wrong on that, if there's any etiquette historians who can enlighten me?

To me, pointless etiquette like cutlery etiquette is indicative of the same behaviours that lead to cultural norms like female genital mutilation - not trying to Godwin the thread, but merely pointing out that I feel they are both symptoms of the same type of thinking.

On the other hand, eating with one's mouth open and putting others off their food, or talking with one's mouth full and risking spraying others with food, these are a different category of rude behaviour - the practical reason why they are considered rude is clearly evident. I'm yet to be put off my dinner by the sight of someone holding their cutlery the wrong way round - I guess I just have a sterner stomach than the Leper...!


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## One (13 Mar 2013)

tarfhead said:


> maybe something on resisting the urge to vehemently express hostile disagreement with opinions posted on a message board, especially ones in a section titled 'shooting the breeze' ?


 
+1


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## Firefly (13 Mar 2013)

First you say:


mandelbrot said:


> To me, pointless etiquette like cutlery etiquette



But then:


mandelbrot said:


> eating with one's mouth open and putting others off their food, or talking with one's mouth full and risking spraying others with food, these are a different category of rude behaviour - the practical reason why they are considered rude is clearly evident.



I am not saying you are contradicting yourself, but it is subjective as to whether or not each of the above is acceptable or not - someone who eats with their mouth open may well find your remark above snobbish 

Rightly or wrongly, etiquette (or lack of) influences a person's impression of someone else, along with things such as dress sense & presentation, accent, vocabulary, personal hygene and the rest...


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## Leper (13 Mar 2013)

Great post Firefly.  Good social etiquette is just common sense.  It is not a fetish; it is not the cause of female castration etc.  (How did you know who come up with this?). 

In these days of trying to get the best person for the job where employers are looking for excuses to fail somebody, I would hate to think of front-runners killing their own chances at dinner or in the canteen.


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## Betsy Og (13 Mar 2013)

lisshen hi, I'm going to load ye all on bus and drop ye into Healy-Rae's pub and I'm tellin-u, by the time ye get out ye'll be delighted to get back to the big scchmmoke and the refinement.


(Point being that everything is relative, apart for the obvious gob-wide-open-eating, or stinking of B.O., a lot of the stuff listed here is fairly harmless/inadvertent and you'd want to be particularly 'on edge' for it to really bother you.)


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## mandelbrot (13 Mar 2013)

Leper said:


> Great post Firefly. Good social etiquette is just common sense. It is not a fetish; it is not the cause of female castration etc. (How did you know who come up with this?).
> 
> In these days of trying to get the best person for the job where employers are looking for excuses to fail somebody, I would hate to think of front-runners killing their own chances at dinner or in the canteen.


 
I don't dispute any of that Leper - but I find it hard to extend common sense to using this fork before that fork etc...

I don't know who came up with "female castration" as you call it (which by the way is a completely different thing to female genital mutilation), any more than you seem to know which bright spark came up with the convention of eating with the fork in one's left hand. It simply was an observation on societal norms.

Etiquette is described as "a code of behavior that delineates expectations for social behavior according to contemporary conventional norms within a society, social class, or group".

I believe that the norms that are espoused here indicate that the people promoting them as somehow being important, belong to a social class or group which I would describe as snobby. Each to their own.


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## Firefly (13 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> I believe that the norms that are espoused here indicate that the people promoting them as somehow being important, belong to a social class or group which I would describe as snobby.



One man's snobbery may be another man's _inverted _snobbery http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/inverted+snobbery


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## Leper (14 Mar 2013)

I know many of us had a laugh on this subject and the only reason I posted the matter was that I believe there is an opening all over the country for a nice little earner for some forward thinking people and at no cost.

One little story (believe it or not) I was once a salesman of pretty expensive stuff. Before I left the job I was training my successor. He was au fait with sales techniques, dress sense, presence, knowledge, etc.

Anyway (to make a long story longer!) we had completed the deal with the hotel owner with which we were dealing and all that remained was to have the contract signed - this would arrive by post days later. We were offered lunch and although I had nearly stood on my colleagues foot - he accepted the offer and we were joined by the hotel owner. My colleague ate lunch as if there were another famine coming and could not get enough apple crumble into his stomach fast enough while leaving a fairly extensive mess on the table and on the floor.

He (my colleague) didn't know it (I did) and he blew the sale. A sale the company could well have done with at the time. Still, I cringe when I think of it.


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## bullbars (14 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> I found this poorly constructed sentence by bullbars



I think it goes beyond poorly constructed, it was just wrong!  Although, I will note it's a forum. Had it been a business related issue I'd review it a bit more before sending obviously.

The point I was trying to make was that 'text-speak' and short one line answers to clients are simply not acceptable. We've actually had to stop some people from replying to emails/letters/fax etc. 
With email, it's too easy to fire out short, sharp replies. I've seen email replies along the lines of
"Ok, will do.

Thks.

MG"

This was a response to a client who had submitted a long list of queries and requests.


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## mandelbrot (14 Mar 2013)

bullbars said:


> I think it goes beyond poorly constructed, it was just wrong!  Although, I will note it's a forum. Had it been a business related issue I'd review it a bit more before sending obviously.
> 
> The point I was trying to make was that 'text-speak' and short one line answers to clients are simply not acceptable. We've actually had to stop some people from replying to emails/letters/fax etc.
> With email, it's too easy to fire out short, sharp replies. I've seen email replies along the lines of
> ...


 
It was just too deliciously ironic not to point out! 

Totally agree with your point in relation to work-related correspondence, particularly to clients.


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## bullbars (14 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> It was just too deliciously ironic not to point!



Now I know how 'Ming' feels.


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## becky (14 Mar 2013)

Leper I still maintain that you wouldn't get the numbers.  Your colleague had no idea that he blew the sale so it's unlikely that he would sign up.

So tell me about pizza.  I was out with a few friends and we all had pizza.  I cut mine into smallish pieces and ate with my hand as did the rest of us except one.  One girl used her knife and fork and imo it was a painful process.  Should we have been asked to leave?


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## Leper (14 Mar 2013)

becky said:


> Leper I still maintain that you wouldn't get the numbers. Your colleague had no idea that he blew the sale so it's unlikely that he would sign up.
> 
> So tell me about pizza. I was out with a few friends and we all had pizza. I cut mine into smallish pieces and ate with my hand as did the rest of us except one. One girl used her knife and fork and imo it was a painful process. Should we have been asked to leave?


 
I would not have asked you to leave.


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## Marion (14 Mar 2013)

> I would not have asked you to leave.



Jeez, I don't know Leper: You might be giving too much slack to the slackers. 

Debretts.com:

Pizza can be eaten with your fingers or a knife and fork, depending on the formality of the situation. When eating with your fingers, hold the slice by the crust and bend the slice lengthways. Take bites from the pointy end and beware unsightly strings of melted cheese. Using a knife and fork is a better idea if you're in a restaurant.

Marion


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## Leper (15 Mar 2013)

You see Becky and Marion, people like me tend to remain silent during any such occasions. Like I said earlier, people who let themselves down (I'm not talking using wrong knives, cutting pizzas into cubes etc) don't realize how stupid they appear. You can bring a person out, dress him/her up, buy a beautiful meal, supply entertaining conversation etc and then you smell their body odour, listen to gnashers munching loudly and conversation that would have a docker duck and suddenly the prospect appears like the source of unwanted entertainment for the subtle well behaved.

There is nothing snobbish in this. Once again, I reckon there is an opening for some cultivated person to make a few bob here. People pay for interview techniques and even the presentation of cv's. Money wasted if you behave like a starved dog gnawing at a suddenly presented bone.


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## The_Banker (15 Mar 2013)

TarfHead said:


> Apparently, when walking along a footpath with a woman, the man should be on the street side of the path to 'shield' the lady from puddle splashes.
> 
> *We were in a restaurant yesterday for Mother's Day. I heard the waitress call out the choices for kids, burger/sausage/nuggets and chips. How can an adult attitude to food be fostered when restaurants pander to the lowest common denominator ? How hard can it be to do smaller portions of what's on the adult menu* ?


 
Absolutely, whenever I attend family gathering at restaurants I always insist that my kids eat what I eat.
My 2.5 year old has developed quite a taste for chowder soup, lobster and paté..


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## Firefly (15 Mar 2013)

The_Banker said:


> My 2.5 year old has developed quite a taste for chowder soup, lobster and paté..



Surely not in that order though?


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## Bill Struth (15 Mar 2013)

Email - My manager insists on everyone putting the entire Email in the subject line. Anyone who doesn't follow this diktat gets an email from him reminding them of the 'correct' format.


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## Betsy Og (15 Mar 2013)

Bill Struth said:


> Email - My manager insists on everyone putting the entire Email in the subject line. Anyone who doesn't follow this diktat gets an email from him reminding them of the 'correct' format.


 
I'd draft it in the body of email and copy & paste it into the subject line (leaving it still in the body).

If he asks why the text in the body of the email tell him "Just for normal people".

Meaningful subject lines are good, but putting all the text in there (unless its a pure 1 liner with ....eom (end of messadge) at the end of it) is madness.


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## becky (15 Mar 2013)

Marion said:


> Jeez, I don't know Leper: You might be giving too much slack to the slackers.
> 
> Debretts.com:
> 
> ...



I think we were okay so, as we did cut into smallish pointy bits.  It was a meet up after work so not too formal.  

The girl who used her knife and fork, she is one of these people who can balance 2 peas on top of fork while talking. I can't do this (life's too short).  

I don't understand 'bend the slice lengthways' though.


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## Marion (16 Mar 2013)

> she is one of these people who can balance 2 peas on top of fork while talking.






Hi Becky

Agreed. There is nothing better than heading out for an enjoyable meal.

I was out myself last evening with 2 friends. We went to a lovely Italian restaurant. One of us had a pizza and used both methods - knife and fork and sometimes just picked up a piece. A sliver was shared by all. I don't think _Debretts _would favour this. But, I didn't complain when it was passed over - it was delicious. 

I had to think about that bit as well about "bending the slice lengthways". I think it just means that you hold the slice between your fingers at the crust end and fold it inwards - I suspect this is to ensure that nothing (cheese or tomato sauce) spills over the edge. 

We shared a dessert between us - a lovely trio of home-made ice cream in a glass pedestaled  bowl . It arrived with 3 spoons. I don't think this would be favoured by _Debretts_ either. And,I'm quite certain that we all had our elbows on the table at the end of the meal as we chatted and finished the wine. 

Verdict: a great evening. 

In a formal setting we would not have been so casual.

Marion


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## mathepac (18 Mar 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> ....  Etiquette is described as "a code of behavior that delineates expectations for social behavior according to contemporary conventional norms within a society, social class, or group". ...


or so some American web-site or other would have you believe


mandelbrot said:


> .... I believe that the norms that are espoused here indicate that the people promoting them as somehow being important, belong to a social class or group which I would describe as snobby. Each to their own.


Nah. I'd say some are just ordinary good manners, some  might apply in "formal" dining settings, and others are a bit old-fashioned, unlike me.


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## mandelbrot (19 Mar 2013)

mathepac said:


> or so some American web-site or other would have you believe


So what's your definition of etiquette then? (Mine was from wikipedia I must confess!)


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## MrMan (19 Mar 2013)

Leper said:


> You see Becky and Marion, people like me tend to remain silent during any such occasions. Like I said earlier, people who let themselves down (I'm not talking using wrong knives, cutting pizzas into cubes etc) don't realize how stupid they appear. You can bring a person out, dress him/her up, buy a beautiful meal, supply entertaining conversation etc and then you smell their body odour, listen to gnashers munching loudly and conversation that would have a docker duck and suddenly the prospect appears like the source of unwanted entertainment for the subtle well behaved.
> 
> There is nothing snobbish in this. Once again, I reckon there is an opening for some cultivated person to make a few bob here. People pay for interview techniques and even the presentation of cv's. Money wasted if you behave like a starved dog gnawing at a suddenly presented bone.



What you have described is someone with poor manners, that may have an issue with BO, which has nothing to do with etiquette; how would the course go for the person described above - Stop swearing, chew with your mouth closed, and wash yourself, now that will be €200 please.

Your story about the salesman that lost the deal because of his eating habits could also point to why the country is down the toilet i.e your deal is unquestionably the best for my company, but when you slurped your tea, I knew that I had to go for the other guy with the impeccable pizza eating technique.
Your story about the salesman


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