# Energy subsidies for businesses



## Brendan Burgess (27 Sep 2022)

Temporary Business Energy Support Scheme​I am introducing a Temporary Business Energy Support Scheme to assist businesses with their energy cost over the winter months.
The scheme will be open to businesses that carry on a Case 1 trade, are tax compliant and have experienced a significant increase in their natural gas and electricity costs.
The scheme will be administered by the Revenue Commissioners and will operate on a self-assessment basis. Businesses will be required to register for the scheme and to make claims within the required time limits.
It is proposed that the scheme will operate by comparing the average unit price for the relevant bill period in 2022 with the average unit price in the corresponding reference period in 2021.
If the increase in average unit price is more than 50 per cent then the threshold would be passed and the business would be eligible for support under the scheme. Once eligibility criteria are met the support will be calculated on the basis of 40 per cent of the amount of the increase in the bill amount.
A monthly cap of €10,000 per trade will apply and an overall cap will apply on the total amount which a business can claim.
The scheme is being designed to be compliant with the EU State Aid Temporary Crisis Framework and will need to be approved by the EU Commission in the advance of making payments.
This is a significant intervention by the government in the Irish economy to protect employment. This support scheme forms a large part of our once off package. We must weaken the ability of a shock to income becoming a loss of jobs. This new policy will help employers with their rising bills, and help to save their businesses.


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## marsaday (27 Sep 2022)

Thanks for that information , Brendan .What criteria is there to qualify as a Case 1 trade ?


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## marsaday (27 Sep 2022)

Just been told any business that is not a profession ... so accountants , solicitors and doctors are deemed too well off to need it.......


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## T McGibney (27 Sep 2022)

marsaday said:


> Just been told any business that is not a profession ... so accountants , solicitors and doctors are deemed too well off to need it.......


The usual discrimination.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Sep 2022)

marsaday said:


> accountants , solicitors and doctors are deemed too well off to need it.......



I would think that energy costs form a very small proportion of their overall costs so an increase is unlikely to threaten their survival.

Brendan


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## T McGibney (27 Sep 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I would think that energy costs form a very small proportion of their overall costs so an increase is unlikely to threaten their survival.
> 
> Brendan



Are you sure Brendan? I'd have thought for example that dentists with specialised equipment would have sizeable energy bills.  And private schools.



> However, the following are regarded as being professions or the provision of professional services and as falling within the provisions of Section 441:
> Accountant
> Actor
> Actuary
> ...





			https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-13/13-02-06.pdf


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Sep 2022)

Private school yes, but not doctors, accountants or solicitors.

I doubt dentists either.

Brendan


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## Purple (28 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> I'd have thought for example that dentists with specialised equipment would have sizeable energy bills.


Nothing a dentist uses required large amounts of power. Manufacturing, particularly where significant amounts of heat is required, food processing and things like that are what they are targeting.


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## T McGibney (28 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> Nothing a dentist uses required large amounts of power. Manufacturing, particularly where significant amounts of heat is required, food processing and things like that are what they are targeting.


I take your point regarding dentistry. My point is really that appearing to include literally everyone except a small range of professional services firms is ridiculous.

We'll soon have bookkeepers and all sorts of unregulated health quacks claiming it, while accredited accountants and doctors can't. And there will be in time even more glaring anomalies.


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## Purple (28 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> I take your point regarding dentistry. My point is really that appearing to include literally everyone except a small range of professional services firms is ridiculous.


The first thing that struck me is that it's going to be very expensive to administer.


T McGibney said:


> We'll soon have bookkeepers and all sorts of unregulated health quacks claiming it, while accredited accountants and doctors can't. And there will be in time even more glaring anomalies.


And rightly so!


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## Sharpie (29 Sep 2022)

It seems crazy that some businesses are entitled to avail of the scheme and others whose electricity and gas bills have also risen by 300% and have had their profits badly hit are not.
The government need to come out and clarify with a comprehensive list and clarify who gets it and who doesn't and put people out of their misery. The whole thing is so vague to the ordinary Joe Soap.
Ironically , the €600 credit for residential properties seems to be crystal clear. If you have multiple residential properties with residential meters you get €600 for each no matter how many you have.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

Sharpie said:


> It seems crazy that some businesses are entitled to avail of the scheme and others whose electricity and gas bills have also risen by 300% and have had their profits badly hit are not.


In what professional services businesses is energy a major cost?


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## ryaner (29 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> In what professional services businesses is energy a major cost?


Depends on how you define major cost. Some computing businesses would easily hit that 10k cap and seem to be excluded by the "Computer programmer" entry.


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## Sharpie (29 Sep 2022)

Accountant
Architect
Auctioneer/Estate Agent
Computer programmer
Dentist
Doctor
Optician
Private School
Quantity Surveyor
Solicitor
Veterinary Surgeon.

With any of the services above you have medium to large operations, with huge heating and lighting costs for their employees. No more ,  on the other hand than you have small family shops, garages, coffee shops with smaller energy bills but also badly in need of a welcome break. Are they going to be excluded because energy is not a major cost?  Of course not, and rightly so but the scheme has to be fair to everyone.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

ryaner said:


> Depends on how you define major cost. Some computing businesses would easily hit that 10k cap and seem to be excluded by the "Computer programmer" entry.


€10k a month powering computers? My desktop in work costs around 10cent an hour to run.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

Sharpie said:


> Accountant
> Architect
> Auctioneer/Estate Agent
> Computer programmer
> ...


I suppose the logic is that the above sectors operate at high margins and so don't need the support.
It's 40% of the difference between last years cost and this years cost so probably a few thousand Euro max over the year for most of the above. There's certainly no doctor in Ireland who would notice a few thousand euro one way of the other.


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## T McGibney (29 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> I suppose the logic is that the above sectors operate at high margins and so don't need the support.


Depends how you define margins.

Accountancy was a high margin business 30 years ago when practices were stuffed with trainees earning £1-£3 an hour. Those days are long gone.

I can't imagine there being too much in the way of margins in the private school business.  The only private school in my neck of the woods went public recently because they reckoned the private model is no longer financially sustainable.

Many leading manufacturers enjoy massive margins and all will be included in the scheme.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Depends how you define margins.
> 
> Accountancy was a high margin business 30 years ago when practices were stuffed with trainees earning £1-£3 an hour. Those days are long gone.
> 
> ...


I didn't say the logic was sound.


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## T McGibney (29 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> I suppose the logic is that the above sectors operate at high margins and so don't need the support.
> It's 40% of the difference between last years cost and this years cost so probably a few thousand Euro max over the year for most of the above. *There's certainly no doctor in Ireland who would notice a few thousand euro one way of the other.*


Oddly enough, in large swathes of the country, you can't find a doctor for love nor money and doctors are quitting practice quicker than new entrants are arriving, many of them saying that they're sick of continually being taken for granted.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> The only private school in my neck of the woods went public recently because they reckoned the private model is no longer financially sustainable.


I don't know what the issue is with private schools. They subsidise the public school system. They should be encouraged, much like private healthcare.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Oddly enough, in large swathes of the country, you can't find a doctor for love nor money and doctors are quitting practice quicker than new entrants are arriving, many of them saying that they're sick of continually being taken for granted.


The old school GP's who were available to the community day and night are a thing of the past. General Practice is now a female dominated industry with a large proportion of them working part time. High marginal tax rates, high childcare costs and work-life balance all play a part in that. Therefore group practices are the norm and those aren't viable in many rural areas. The GMS payment system also plays into that as there is funding for staff, IT, Locums etc as the GMS list becomes bigger. A fulltime urban GP will be making somewhere between €150k and €250k a year. My Ex is a GP and she makes considerably more than that but she's a good GP and has a big practice.


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## T McGibney (29 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> The old school GP's who were available to the community day and night are a thing of the past. General Practice is now a female dominated industry with a large proportion of them working part time. High marginal tax rates, high childcare costs and work-life balance all play a part in that. Therefore group practices are the norm and those aren't viable in many rural areas. The GMS payment system also plays into that as there is funding for staff, IT, Locums etc as the GMS list becomes bigger. A fulltime urban GP will be making somewhere between €150k and €250k a year. My Ex is a GP and she makes considerably more than that but she's a good GP and has a big practice.


My point stands.

The beginning of the end for many of them was a decade or so ago when Revenue suddenly and retrospectively changed the rules on the employment status of locums, meaning that not only were GPs left without holiday, illness or family time cover, but many were hit with significant and retrospective PAYE/PRSI, interest and penalty bills despite having genuinely and fully above board hired and utilised locums as self-employed independent contractors.

This was of course justified by a supposition that none of them "would notice a few thousand euro one way of the other" but the laws of economics apply to the supply of doctors just as much as it does to everything else.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> My point stands.
> 
> The beginning of the end for many of them was a decade or so ago when Revenue suddenly and retrospectively changed the rules on the employment status of locums, meaning that not only were GPs left without holiday, illness or family time cover, but many were hit with significant and retrospective PAYE/PRSI, interest and penalty bills despite having genuinely and fully above board hired and utilised locums as self-employed independent contractors.
> 
> This was of course justified by a supposition that none of them "would notice a few thousand euro one way of the other" but the laws of economics apply to the supply of doctors just as much as it does to everything else.


Does that mean a GP employing a Locum for 2 weeks holiday cover is taking on an employee rather than a contractor?
My understanding is that they are contractors in those circumstances and as such PAYE/PRSI is not an issue but where GP's employed doctors as "Locums" but those doctors were working permanently part time Revenue treated them as employees, and rightly so.


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## T McGibney (29 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> Does that mean a GP employing a Locum for 2 weeks holiday cover is taking on an employee rather than a contractor?


Yes.

And one engaged for a half day to say enable the GP go to a funeral, likewise.

Meanwhile, because Revenue now deny locums any tax deduction for travelling to and from work engagements and for other incidental costs, nobody wants to be a locum and they're very hard to find. Nighmare stuff all round.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Yes.
> 
> And one engaged for a half day to say enable the GP go to a funeral, likewise.


That's not the experience of my Ex. She's been hiring Locums for years for holiday cover etc and it's never been a problem. Doctors she employs to work part time in her practice are not locums, they are employees. 


T McGibney said:


> Meanwhile, because Revenue now deny locums any tax deduction for travelling to and from work engagements and for other incidental costs, nobody wants to be a locum and they're very hard to find. Nighmare stuff all round.


I wasn't aware that travel to or from your place of work was ever an allowable cost. If the doctor works for a locum company that is different.


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## T McGibney (29 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> That's not the experience of my Ex. She's been hiring Locums for years for holiday cover etc and it's never been a problem. Doctors she employs to work part time in her practice are not locums, they are employees.


She's lucky. Perhaps it's a rural/urban thing. I personally know of rural locums who quit the trade because it was no longer worth the hassle. GPs in our area report serious difficulties locating locums.


Purple said:


> I wasn't aware that travel to or from your place of work was ever an allowable cost.


It was always a grey area and was tolerated in the case of locums until around a decade ago. Then it was changed, with predictable results.


Purple said:


> If the doctor works for a locum company that is different.


If the doctor works for a locum company, Revenue may seek to impose 23% VAT on the transaction sum on the basis that the service provided by the locum company is a personnel service, not a medical service.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

Oaky, back out of the rabbit hole, is there a distinction between companies and sole traders in this support?


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## T McGibney (29 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> Oaky, back out of the rabbit hole, is there a distinction between companies and sole traders in this support?


Not that I know of.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> She's lucky. Perhaps it's a rural/urban thing. I personally know of rural locums who quit the trade because it was no longer worth the hassle. GPs in our area report serious difficulties locating locums.


I think that's a rural thing and the next point plays a part too, though locums could just charge more to work in rural areas. Rural GP's do get a hand-out from the GMS to encourage them to stay put. 


T McGibney said:


> It was always a grey area and was tolerated in the case of locums until around a decade ago. Then it was changed, with predictable results.


Yep, see above.


T McGibney said:


> If the doctor works for a locum company, Revenue may seek to impose 23% VAT on the transaction sum on the basis that the service provided by the locum company is a personnel service, not a medical service.


Well it is a personal service in that they aren't engaging them to treat them, rather they are engaging them so they can go on holidays etc.


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## Purple (29 Sep 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Not that I know of.


That's kind of what distinguishes the Case 1 and Case 2 activities so maybe that's what they are after.


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## Sharpie (29 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> That's kind of what distinguishes the Case 1 and Case 2 activities so maybe that's what they are after.


Anybody got a list of Case 2 activities ?


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## lomber (30 Sep 2022)

Only in Ireland would they split these activities for their own advantage. As a dentist now with an 8 or 9 k bill Vs 3 before annually they aren't helping !


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## Purple (30 Sep 2022)

lomber said:


> Only in Ireland would they split these activities for their own advantage. As a dentist now with an 8 or 9 k bill Vs 3 before annually they aren't helping !


That's interesting. That means you are using around 3 times as much electricity during your working week as a family uses in a full week. Assuming you are working 40 hours a week that means you use more than 12 times as much electricity per hour. 
Can I ask what heavy machinery you use in your business? It's a long time since I looked at the power consumption of x-ray machines but I thought dental x-rays were a 40kW system. That's around 4 times what an electric shower uses.


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## marsaday (30 Sep 2022)

To be fair , lombers‘ yearly usage is totally plausible  if he/she are a medium/ large practice with maybe say , 2 or 3 dentists , 2 dental assistants maybe,  a hygienist and secretary. Waiting areas have to be lit up, computers, telephone systems, radiators burn energy. I’m sure lomber is not coming on here making up figures, Purple. Their bills used to be €500 every two months, now they are €1400 + .  You are also ignoring the fact that commercial tarrifs are 2-3 times the price of residential presently , not to mention heftier PSO Levies and standing charges. Totally plausible and I think , with respect they and all businesses should be entitled to the TBESS.


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## Purple (30 Sep 2022)

marsaday said:


> To be fair , lombers‘ yearly usage is totally plausible  if he/she are a medium/ large practice with maybe say , 2 or 3 dentists , 2 dental assistants maybe,  a hygienist and secretary. Waiting areas have to be lit up, computers, telephone systems, radiators burn energy. I’m sure lomber is not coming on here making up figures, Purple. Their bills used to be €500 every two months, now they are €1400 + .  You are also ignoring the fact that commercial tarrifs are 2-3 times the price of residential presently , not to mention heftier PSO Levies and standing charges. Totally plausible and I think , with respect they and all businesses should be entitled to the TBESS.


I'm not saying that they are making it up. I'm looking to understand it. Sure, if it's a big practice with a number of dentists. The old practice where a dentist operated from a house in a residential area would, I think, use far less power. 
We have aa number of meters on a number of different tariffs where I work. We're currently paying an average of €0.42 per kWh. The PSO levy is tied to the MIC so it won't be that much on a smaller user. 
We've adjusted our MIC's, installed LED lighting (best bang for your buck), put motion detectors in place, replaced our compressor (a massive user of power) and are installing 86kW of solar. We pay around €280k a year at current rates. The solar should reduce that by around €30k. If we'd done nothing we'd be paying €360k-€380k at current rates.


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## ryaner (30 Sep 2022)

Purple said:


> €10k a month powering computers? My desktop in work costs around 10cent an hour to run.


Businesses are more than a single desktop, and most programmers tend to have machines on the large side. I'm on the heavy side but my desk alone (multiple systems) can be pulling > 1500watts at times and we'd have others doing similar. Then add in the server room, it is a business remember, and you start seeing where the power draw really is.


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## lomber (30 Sep 2022)

Hey, I used something like 15000 units last year. I fixed with Bord Gais in the summer for 13 months @40 cent +vat +levys ,dentists cant claim back vat, before I was with Go Power on a floating wholesale rate + 2 cent a unit. 
Im trying to cut it to 10000 if at all possible with switch to led, powering off pcs, maybe diverting the heat from the sterilization room that is HOT into the cooler reception . Some of the pcs would be high end with high end graphics cards that reconstruct 3d images so use abit of power versus a laptop or low power desktop.

So basically theres two dentists full time 42 hours a week, a server thats on 24/7, 2 desktops on 24/7 (due to need to log in to check things off site), 2 surgeries with 5 light fittings (the roof tile size) each fitting has a 40w florescent, so thats 400 watts per surgery+ chairs which dont consume alot as has a led light.

Theres a sterilization room with 2 vacuum autoclaves that basically suck power and run for one hour per cycle to sterilize and dry the instruments

Add to that we have no gas and all heating and cooling is via heat pump aircon units (efficient , these have a COP of average 3.75/1 so 3.75 units of heat for one unit of electricity)

Also theres a compressor that runs when it needs to fill with air as all tool are air driven but obviously that wouldnt  cycle too many times per day

Each chair has its own vacuum pump thats a motor thats spinning constantly once the suction tubes are lifted from the holder. Generally mine would run for say 3 hours maybe 4 per day as I put suction into everyones mouth even for a exam. This would likely use a fair bit.

Other power users would be general lighting ,at least another 4 pcs that are on during the day , xray machines although these are only on for realistically less than a fraction of a second (say .16 of a second)

We use alot of hot water and although I fitted a small 20 liter tank custom made to save heat up time in the morning  this I leave on during the work day on its own thermostat.

I know Im lucky and ok even if its another 5k for the year over what we are used to thats 2.5 after tax or 1.25 each which everyone is correct isnt going to kill anyone but its the principal
Case 1 , Case 2 ? Only in Ireland, only in Ireland...


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## Purple (3 Oct 2022)

@lomber, that's a serious power requirement alright. I'd suggest you change all you lights to LED's and make sure you have the most efficient compressor you can get as they are incredibly power hungry.


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## T McGibney (3 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> *Nothing a dentist uses required large amounts of power.* Manufacturing, particularly where significant amounts of heat is required, food processing and things like that are what they are targeting.


Amazing how people can make such ill-informed comments on this site without actually having a clue of what they're discussing.


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## Purple (3 Oct 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Amazing how people can make such ill-informed comments on this site without actually having a clue of what they're discussing.


It's amazing how some people can make such ill informed a nasty comments without actually having a clue of what they're discussing.
What do they use which requires a large amount of power?
@lomber outlined their power requirement and while it is significant in the context of a household it is tiny in the context of business users who have a large energy requirement. My business spends in excess of a quarter of a million a year on energy but it's still a relatively small input cost. You might be used to doing the books for small business but in the context of the broader business world a dentist is a very small energy user.


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## T McGibney (3 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> .You might be used to doing the books for small business but in the context of the broader business world a dentist is a very small energy user.


Claptrap. I got it right when I noted earlier that dentists with specialised equipment would have sizeable energy bills.  You incorrectly rebutted that without knowing either what you were talking about - dentistry-  or what we were talking about - the selective exclusion of professional practices from this scheme.

Nobody is contesting that other businesses have even more severe energy requirements and nowhere have I questioned anyone's entitlement to support. In this regard, your attempt to slur my clientele as solely "small business" is wholly gratuitous as well as being factually incorrect.

But do keep personalising your arguments, it's edifying.


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## Purple (3 Oct 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Claptrap. I got it right when I noted earlier that dentists with specialised equipment would have sizeable energy bills.  You incorrectly rebutted that without knowing either what you were talking about - dentistry-  or what we were talking about - the selective exclusion of professional practices from this scheme.


I never defended the exclusion of some sectors from the scheme. I merely suggested what the rationale might be. In the context of energy use dentistry and similar industries are small energy users.


T McGibney said:


> Nobody is contesting that other businesses have even more severe energy requirements and nowhere have I questioned anyone's entitlement to support. In this regard, your attempt to slur my clientele as solely "small business" is wholly gratuitous as well as being factually incorrect.


I didn't attempt to slur anyone. I merely suggested it might be a reason you though dentistry was a high energy use sector.


T McGibney said:


> But do keep personalising your arguments, it's edifying.


Indeed;


T McGibney said:


> Amazing how people can make such ill-informed comments on this site without actually having a clue of what they're discussing.


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## T McGibney (3 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> I didn't attempt to slur anyone. I merely suggested it might be a reason you though dentistry was a high energy use sector.


And you were wrong. On both counts. Again.


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## Purple (3 Oct 2022)

T McGibney said:


> And you were wrong. On both counts. Again.



Grand so, if you think that an extra €5k a year is a big input in a dental practice employing 2 dentists then I'm not going to attempt to convince you otherwise. If you think that a spend of €10-€15k a year makes a business a high energy user then ditto. 
You seem unduly upset by my posts. It might be better for you if I stopped responding to yours.


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## T McGibney (3 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> You seem unduly upset by my posts. It might be better for you if I stopped responding to yours.


It might be better for us all if you confined yourself to factual comments. And stop misrepresenting others when they correct your errors.


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## lomber (3 Oct 2022)

Whats your turnover though if your using 1/4 million?


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## Purple (4 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> Whats your turnover though if your using 1/4 million?


around €16 million
Labour is by far our biggest input cost, then materials.


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## lomber (4 Oct 2022)

Elect is only less than 2% then of t/o, no different to a dentists ratio therefore


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## Purple (4 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> Elect is only less than 2% then of t/o, no different to a dentists ratio therefore


Yep, we're not a high energy user either.

Manufacturing processes that use heat are the big users. Aluminium prices are at historical highs but producers in Europe are ceasing production as they can't make the stuff at a profit due to energy costs (The EU uses around 8.5 million tons a year and there's forecasted to be a 5 million ton deficit this year). Energy historically make up 40% of their costs. 

Energy accounts for around 35% of the cost of making bread, more than a quarter of the cost of beer, about 40% of the cost of producing Cement. Those are the high energy consumption sectors. 

Businesses like mine and yours shouldn't be getting supports but if mine is getting it then so should yours.


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## lomber (4 Oct 2022)

Absolutely, its unforgivable to discriminate between trade and profession. The Irish tax code has been written by very clever overgrown spiders who feed off their prey who get stuck in nets to feed an expanding State that produces nothing. This injustice just highlights that.

I believe fertilizer production has also ceased hin Europe. A colleague tells me that his electricity is around 10 or 15 cent a unit due to Hydro in the US in Washington state I believe. He said that paying 50, 100 ,150 cent a unit is ridiculous and incomprehensible.


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## mahmudaparvin (6 Oct 2022)

I would think that energy costs form a very small proportion of their overall costs so an increase is unlikely to threaten their surviva


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## Purple (6 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> Absolutely, its unforgivable to discriminate between trade and profession.


What is the difference, other than an antiquated English notion of how a particular sector is regulated?


lomber said:


> The Irish tax code has been written by very clever overgrown spiders who feed off their prey who get stuck in nets to feed an expanding State that produces nothing. This injustice just highlights that.


Yes, the State is betting bigger and bigger without any discussion as to whether or not that's a good thing. 


lomber said:


> I believe fertilizer production has also ceased hin Europe. A colleague tells me that his electricity is around 10 or 15 cent a unit due to Hydro in the US in Washington state I believe. He said that paying 50, 100 ,150 cent a unit is ridiculous and incomprehensible.


We are hostages to the idea that the only good green energy is wind and solar and now we are paying the ransom.


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## lomber (6 Oct 2022)

When I worked in the UK the tax return also discriminated and segregated income into- business trade profession. I think it's based on that and no doubt the original  reason was that  losses or capital allowances on one head can't be offset against anothers income. Similarly in Ireland if you are in a partnership and buy a property and there's a loss on resale that loss is restricted to the partnership.
So basically the tax payer gets the worse of the bargain whilst they look like they are fair.


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## Purple (6 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> When I worked in the UK the tax return also discriminated and segregated income into- business trade profession. I think it's based on that and no doubt the original  reason was that  losses or capital allowances on one head can't be offset against anothers income. Similarly in Ireland if you are in a partnership and buy a property and there's a loss on resale that loss is restricted to the partnership.
> So basically the tax payer gets the worse of the bargain whilst they look like they are fair.


So is the differentiation between limited liability companies and everyone else?


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## T McGibney (6 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> So is the differentiation between limited liability companies and everyone else?


Not according to the Minister's Budget speech. Only a small minority of practising professionals operate via limited liability companies.


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## Purple (6 Oct 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Not according to the Minister's Budget speech. Only a small minority of practising professionals operate via limited liability companies.


In essence does this apply to any entity that is subject to 12.5% Corporation tax, i.e. a Company. 
For example can a plumber or welder who makes gates and who have a workshop but operate as  sole traders avail of the energy subsidy?


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## marsaday (6 Oct 2022)

Surely it is time for the Taoiseach , Tanaiste or Finance minister to come in to the Dail or the telly / radio and clear up these questions  ? Otherwise we are are all only speculating.


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## Purple (6 Oct 2022)

marsaday said:


> Surely it is time for the Taoiseach , Tanaiste or Finance minister to come in to the Dail or the telly / radio and clear up these questions  ? Otherwise we are are all only speculating.


I'm waiting for the combined intellect of AAM to answer it for me.


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## T McGibney (6 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> In essence does this apply to any entity that is subject to 12.5% Corporation tax, i.e. a Company.
> For example can a plumber or welder who makes gates and who have a workshop but operate as  sole traders avail of the energy subsidy?


If we are to trust the Minister's words, surely it must apply to both?  Mind you, his announcement that he plans to unilaterally exclude professional services businesses suggests that the whole idea may not have as yet progressed far beyond the back-of-a-beermat phase.


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## marsaday (6 Oct 2022)

T McGibney said:


> If we are to trust the Minister's words, surely it must apply to both?  Mind you, his announcement that he plans to unilaterally exclude professional services businesses suggests that the whole idea may not have as yet progressed far beyond the back-of-a-beermat phase.


Yes ,  I would agree with the " back of a beer mat" analogy. You're probably being a bit charitable to the Minister there.


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## Purple (14 Oct 2022)

It looks like the grand conspiracy by the government to oppress the Case 2 businesses is coming to an end. It will be a great relief to those hard pressed doctors, dentists, solicitors and accountant and everyone and anyone interested in social justice and, indeed, natural justice. Call off the protest marches, put away the placards, cancel the plans to handcuff yourselves to the railings of the Dáil.


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## T McGibney (14 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> It looks like the grand conspiracy by the government to oppress the Case 2 businesses is coming to an end. It will be a great relief to those hard pressed doctors, dentists, solicitors and accountant and everyone and anyone interested in social justice and, indeed, natural justice. Call off the protest marches, put away the placards, cancel the plans to handcuff yourselves to the railings of the Dáil.


Incidentally, the last time the Accountancy bodies went on a protest march, it was to frustrate government plans to force them to comply with mandatory reporting of tax dodgers.  Circa 1994. No, me neither.


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## marsaday (14 Oct 2022)

Any idea if church and community group halls etc will be included ? Ah sure I suppose all will be revealed next Tuesday, I suppose.


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## Purple (14 Oct 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Incidentally, the last time the Accountancy bodies went on a protest march, it was to frustrate government plans to force them to comply with mandatory reporting of tax dodgers.


That does that say about them?!


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## Purple (14 Oct 2022)

marsaday said:


> Any idea if church and community group halls etc will be included ? Ah sure I suppose all will be revealed next Tuesday, I suppose.


They should give the churches a tax break instead... oh, wait...


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## T McGibney (14 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> That does that say about them?!


In fairness it says a lot more about the wheeling and dealing dinosaurs that ran the shop back then than it does about the succeeding generations.


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## T McGibney (14 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> They should give the churches a tax break instead... oh, wait...


Yeah, can't the old people and people with disabilities give up their Tuesday afternoon social clubs and instead sit in misery at home waiting for the undertakers like they did during the good ol' days of the lockdowns?


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## Purple (14 Oct 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Yeah, can't the old people and people with disabilities give up their Tuesday afternoon social clubs and instead sit in misery at home waiting for the undertakers like they did during the good ol' days of the lockdowns?


Or maybe the Church can spend some of it's own money heating them, like a charity or non-profit is meant to do. The Carmelites could lend them a few Bob after the €20 million or so they got for the land at Terenure College (instead of turning their HQ into a 5 Star Nursing Home for themselves). The Passionists must have made €10 million selling off Mount Argus in the last decade or so. What did they do with that money?  Not much social and affordable housing being built at either location.


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## Purple (14 Oct 2022)

T McGibney said:


> In fairness it says a lot more about the wheeling and dealing dinosaurs that ran the shop back then than it does about the succeeding generations.


Oh, I'm sure they're all good sorts now... sure aren't they professional!


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## T McGibney (14 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> Or maybe the Church can spend some of it's own money heating them, like a charity or non-profit is meant to do. The Carmelites could lend them a few Bob after the €20 million or so they got for the land at Terenure College (instead of turning their HQ into a 5 Star Nursing Home for themselves). The Passionists must have made €10 million selling off Mount Argus in the last decade or so. What did they do with that money?  Not much social and affordable housing being built at either location.


They won't do that though, and we all know it, no more than GAA or rugby or soccer clubs or indeed the HSE or other state bodies will in respect of discretionary events once the cost of running such events becomes prohibitive.


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## Purple (14 Oct 2022)

T McGibney said:


> They won't do that though, and we all know it, no more than GAA or rugby or soccer clubs or indeed the HSE or other state bodies will in respect of discretionary events once the cost of running such events becomes prohibitive.


This is way off topic but the RC Church has more than enough money to heat parish halls etc. and keep the old people and people with disabilities from having to give up their Tuesday afternoon social clubs.
When I was young and was involved in a Church Youth Group we had to pay the Parish rent for the use of the Parish Hall every week. A bunch of kids (17-20 year olds) who worked part time jobs had to pay the Parish to use the Parish Hall. The Church Choir has to pay them to use the Hall to practice in. More fools us.


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## T McGibney (14 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> This is way off topic


Yes it is so we'll not go there.


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## lomber (14 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> It looks like the grand conspiracy by the government to oppress the Case 2 businesses is coming to an end. It will be a great relief to those hard pressed doctors, dentists, solicitors and accountant and everyone and anyone interested in social justice and, indeed, natural justice. Call off the protest marches, put away the placards, cancel the plans to handcuff yourselves to the railings of the Dáil.


All it took to change their view was a bit of political pressure. Shows whats really in their mind though. In fairness the Irish dont hate professionals like some societies do. They really hate professionals in the UK for example and try to cut them down.


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## Purple (17 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> All it took to change their view was a bit of political pressure. Shows whats really in their mind though. In fairness the Irish dont hate professionals like some societies do. They really hate professionals in the UK for example and try to cut them down.


It's terrible the way vulnerable and marginalised groups get targeted like that...


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## lomber (17 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> It's terrible the way vulnerable and marginalised groups get targeted like that...


Im not sure if thats sarcastic but the general wages in the UK are very low, like much lower than Ireland. I saw a job advertised a few years ago in a recruitment agency window for a engineer and the level of experience including degree level and work of 6+ years  and responsibility was unreal including detailed knowledge of just in time production and many different production processes. The pay was something like 28000 stg per year...
So you can imagine what its like for the common man or woman.
Houses are also packed very close like sardines( Anyone who takes a train in the UK can testify to that) The only way to escape is either to be a practice type professional or a entrepreneur(or emigrate etc which many do to Spain historically). They need the latter as they create jobs but hate the former as they are seen as bloodsuckers.


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## Purple (17 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> Im not sure if thats sarcastic but the general wages in the UK are very low, like much lower than Ireland. I saw a job advertised a few years ago in a recruitment agency window for a engineer and the level of experience including degree level and work of 6+ years  and responsibility was unreal including detailed knowledge of just in time production and many different production processes. The pay was something like 28000 stg per year...
> So you can imagine what its like for the common man or woman.



Skilled Machinists in Britain earn £30-£40k a year. They earn twice that here.  With the exception of the area around London wages are significantly lower in Britain. So are most costs. That's what happens when a country is effectively a colony of London. Much of the country is a shambles and the part that isn't is very expensive.  



lomber said:


> Houses are also packed very close like sardines( Anyone who takes a train in the UK can testify to that) The only way to escape is either to be a practice type professional or a entrepreneur(or emigrate etc which many do to Spain historically). They need the latter as they create jobs but hate the former as they are seen as bloodsuckers.



People who add little value are often seen as bloodsuckers. Solicitors are effectively middlemen in many transactions, General Practitioners add no value when you need an appointment to see a Hospital Consultant, Management Consultants add no value for, well, everything they do. 
Since Professions started in England and were a manifestation of privilege, inequality and restrictive practice it is not surprising that there is a resentment to them. They started out as a group of men (and it was just men) from a particular upper-class background making sure that only people they approved of (white Protestant upper-class men) could get into the club. There was an assumption that those people, the right sort of people, were more honest and trustworthy than the lower classes. 
They were founded on assumptions of elitism and bigotry. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a resentment against them from what you called ordinary people (are Professionals extraordinary people?).


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## lomber (17 Oct 2022)

Purple said:


> People who add little value are often seen as bloodsuckers. Solicitors are effectively middlemen in many transactions, General Practitioners add no value when you need an appointment to see a Hospital Consultant, Management Consultants add no value for, well, everything they do.
> ..
> They were founded on assumptions of elitism and bigotry. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a resentment against them from what you called ordinary people (are Professionals extraordinary people?).


There isnt alot of resentment in say Ireland or the US (well ok against lawyers) against professionals. As I said the wages are low in the UK and basically theres no way out unless your either a professional or a businessman/woman.
That isnt the case in say the US where a mechanic who works on European cars can make 2000 a day. Other examples are people who wash windows /roofs . So theres no need to be a professional. There kind of is in the UK thats the differentiating factor.


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## Sharpie (17 Oct 2022)

What about hard working farmers in the agricultural sector? Do they get a break here. Some have commercial meters , so won't get the €600 residential credit


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## Wheelie Bin (25 Oct 2022)

Any idea when the rebate forms are coming out for the TBESS ?  nothing up on Revenue site about it


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## Sharpie (21 Nov 2022)

Haven't seen anything on the Revenue link but I notice on social media lots of accountants are advertising that they can now make TBESS claims on behalf of businesses. Hardly worth it for a small business to pay an accountant to reclaim say €40 on a bill for €220. Is there anyway a business can try and reclaim themselves for the small amount that it is so that they can at least get the benefit ?


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## Jimatwork (7 Dec 2022)

Anybody tried submitting a TBESS claim On ROS ? Absolutely head wrecking . I’m enterring my Sept’21  bills in the Preclaim details section , correctly I’m certain (two bills 6.8.22-12.9.22 and 13.9.22-6.10.22) . I ‘m not clicking the box which says “ please check the box if there are any periods for this account for which you do not intend to submit a claim. Should I be entering all invoices all the the way to Feb ‘22 even though I obviously don’t have the Nov ‘22 , Dec’ 22 and Jan , Feb ‘ 23 details yet for the corresponding Period 12 months later. 

Is this why it won’t allow me to continue to the  next page ? Do I need to put in details for the six months 1.9.22 to 28.2.23 ? I have all bills Set ‘22-Feb’23 so that is not an issue if needed. Thanks in advance.


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## discovery101 (12 Dec 2022)

Hi there.....I am self employed and work from home, would I be entitled to anything with this scheme?

thank you


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## ClubMan (12 Dec 2022)

discovery101 said:


> Hi there.....I am self employed and work from home, would I be entitled to anything with this scheme?
> 
> thank you


If you meet the qualifying criteria, I guess so?





						Temporary Business Energy Support Scheme (TBESS)
					

This page outlines the basics of the new Temporary Business Energy Support Scheme announced in the budget statement 2023




					www.revenue.ie


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## Sharpie (12 Dec 2022)

Managed to get the Sept '22 rebate over the line. Do you have to wait for the rebate for Sept '22 rebate to hit your bank account before you can apply for the October '22 rebate ?


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