# Mortgage (30mths left) & Revenue (€7k) have priortiy but IJ-MBNA seek judgement €5k



## pig dog (1 Dec 2013)

Hey all,
I have a few debt issues:

First of all I trawled the site and found some helpful advice but am a little worried.

A few years ago I ran out of work (self employed) and was refused social welfare but have recently picked up a stable full time job. Although its barely over minimum wage its steady.

However in the dark dark time I was out of work I ran into some serious difficulty.

That difficulty is that the revenue managed to swing a rebate in the region of several thousand euro in circa 2002 to a situation of I now owe them them over €7,000.

My credit card has gone from credit card to debt collection agency  *Intrum Justitia *IJ.

Despite my explaining to them that I owe revenue the amount mentioned above and that and my mortgage take priority.

I have tried to set a repayment plan with IJ and if I miss a month I make up for it by paying twice or three times in one month.

I don't recollect having a contract with the debt collection agency but  in January received, I think a civil summons. I spoke to a friend in the know who said that they were possibly pushing me to see if I would crack. I wont.

During the week I received a document from them which says its DECREE (SUMMARY JUDGEMENT)  against me.

For the court date that it states on the document I never received any notification of any kind that I was being taken  to that court on that date.
Can they go to court without my knowledge?

Would I be right in saying that because I have paid them something I have formed a contract with them

Although in previous correspondence they have mentioned MBNA but in the latest letter they make no mention of MBNA.

Should I just continue to pay the amount that I had agreed to pay and they accepted to pay but now on a more regular basis.

If I stop paying (seriously considering it if they went to court without my knowledge) is the next step the sheriff?

I have no 'real' assets apart from the family home.

My priorities are as above i.e. mortgage then revenue debt (however badly aggrieved I feel about it).

I know playing silly buggers with revenue isn't an issue so that has to be done.

Only a 30 months left on my mortgage if I could buy some time could lash my cc off in a few months.

The overall amount with debt collection agency is €5,000

dca is *Intrum Justitia*
CC is/was *MBNA*


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## ajapale (1 Dec 2013)

Hi PG and welcome to AAM,

Ive expanded your title a little let me know if thats ok.

aj


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## pig dog (1 Dec 2013)

Hey aj,
yeah thats perfect thanks
pg


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## mandelbrot (1 Dec 2013)

I know it's not the exact subject of your query, but are you sure about this Revenue debt? Do you actually understand what you owe, and are you satisfied tha it's validly due, or are you just accepting what they're demanding?


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## pig dog (1 Dec 2013)

Oh I am sure.
Buts thats another tale.
The short version is this.
I got a notice ,way back saying they owed me several thousand euro due to overpayment.
About 4 years ago when I rang up about it they more or less denied it (for the sake of the short version) and then the demand for my years of elf employment came in in a few short weeks I owed them 8k


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## pig dog (1 Dec 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> and are you satisfied tha it's validly due, or are you just accepting what they're demanding?


As a mortal I have no choice but to accept it. 
As to its validity.
While I accept that I may have filed wrongly and therefore owe some. They way they wiggled out of paying me is frankly disgraceful.
I spoke to someone that I knew well up in revenue and they told me that there was a definite payment of several thousand down as owed to me but that person subsequenlty retired.


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## mandelbrot (1 Dec 2013)

pig dog said:


> Oh I am sure.
> Buts thats another tale.
> The short version is this.
> I got a notice ,way back saying they owed me several thousand euro due to overpayment.
> About 4 years ago when I rang up about it they more or less denied it (for the sake of the short version) and then the demand for my years of elf employment came in in a few short weeks I owed them 8k


 


pig dog said:


> As a mortal I have no choice but to accept it.
> As to its validity.
> While I accept that I may have filed wrongly and therefore owe some. They way they wiggled out of paying me is frankly disgraceful.
> I spoke to someone that I knew well up in revenue and they told me that there was a definite payment of several thousand down as owed to me but that person subsequenlty retired.


 
Well you're either owed back the money or you're not - if I were you I would be seeking absolute certainty that the overpayment isn't available for offset...


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## pig dog (1 Dec 2013)

I know its a divergence to my most urgent problem but when I rang up enquiring about it all those  years ago I was told and I qoute 'sorry but that was a mistake. Its not that amount'
A subsequent phone I was told no nothing owed. When I pushed the person admitted that I was paid €250. I could find no trace of this amount. Then when he demands started rolling I asked t he person ,now retired, and they confirmed that there was a refund of several thousand on my file.
When I was told this I rang up looking for some of it to be offset but was then flatly told Nothing there.
Really wtf is going on.
Anyway.....again CC/IJ is my most pressing issue now.


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## MisterMarkie (2 Dec 2013)

pig dog, I am/was in a very similar position, I too was landed with a bill from Revenue that I had to repay and caused me to be unable to keep up on a large credit card bill with MBNA(now Avant). I have just finished repaying Revenue but Avant have just written to me informing me that they are referring for collection to Cabot Financial. I too would be very interested to hear from other users what their experience and knowledge of these agency is.
I felt that my bill with Revenue although valid was unfair but just had to swallow it and repay them over 3 years.


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## Bronte (2 Dec 2013)

MisterMarkie said:


> I felt that my bill with Revenue although valid was unfair but just had to swallow it and repay them over 3 years.


 
If it's valid, how is it unfair?  Did you have an accountant?


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## Bronte (2 Dec 2013)

pig dog said:


> My credit card has gone from credit card to debt collection agency *Intrum Justitia *IJ.
> 
> I have tried to set a repayment plan with IJ and if I miss a month I make up for it by paying twice or three times in one month.
> 
> ...


 
You are relying on a friends advice to ignore IJ? Do you think that is wise? IJ quite clearly mean business with you, they've taken you to court, you've ignored their summons and it appears this was brought about because a) you weren't paying MBNA and b) you didn't keep up the agreed repayments with IJ. Paying double or treble one month having missed a month is not how it works. You have to stick to what was agreed. 

Also what's with you saying you have no contract with IJ, you owe the money? Other posters on here have said much the same, is this the freeman nonsense?

Not sure if they will send a sheriff round, most people don't have anything worth selling.  I have heard of people going to jail for an hour or two, or some days, for debts.


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

Bronte,
I spoke to IJ after the inital 'court document' and once again explained to them that A) I had only recently got back into full time employment after haveing spent the best part of 12 months with zero income and I was trying to get back on my feet and B) that my payment priorities were my mortgage and my revenue bill.
I explained to them that I woud commit to a repayment plan that I could hold to rather then commit to a plan that I simply couldn't afford.
I was upfront and truthful with them and by and large kept to it.
THEY AGGREED TO THIS!
Now I have this letter that says that in late November a judgement was issues against me.
Why was I not informed that they were going to court again so I could go and defend myself.


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

Regards the contract issue I mentioned:
No its not freeman crap.
I had no idea that MBNA were going down this route as I was in ongoing talks with MBNA and thought we were slowly getting places.
Apparently not.
I never signed a contract with IJ but am asking because I agreed to a repayment plan with them on the notion given by them that they were working for MBNA and now there is no mention of MBNA.


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

Markie,
From my recent experience go back to Avant and set a repayment plan with them.If you get a letter from the other lot send a registered letter to them saying you are still in contract with Avant and dealing with them.


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

As regards the sherriff....If they do write or call I will give them a copy of my revenue bill and tell them that and my mortgage takes priorty.
If I gotta spend a night or two in prison to put this hell behind me then so be it.I have kids and at times they were they only thing stopping me from doing something really stupid.
I have almost nothing ,except my house, to my name so that will end that.
.
Its not that I don't want to pay but I need this to come to an end somehowas its again starting to destroy my life.


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## Time (2 Dec 2013)

Ok don't worry about the sheriff. He has to go through the motions. He won't give you any hassle there so please relax a little. Using the sheriff is an archaic step that is needed so the bank can push onto getting an instalment order.

What is likely to happy next is that Avant will seek an instalment order directing you to pay x amount per week. A judge decides how much if anything you have to pay based on your current situation. Again the judge is on your side he will not order you to pay something you can't afford to pay.

A few days in prison does not wipe debts. That only applies to criminal fines.


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

Thanks for that, Time.
Was getting panicky.
I presume that IJ will go through the same motions as Avant will.I have never had any dealings with Avant as it was still MBNA whenI was dealing with them.


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## Time (2 Dec 2013)

Who's name is the judgement in? Avant, MBNA or IJ?


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

IJ/Ashtown Solicitors.
I know this sounds stupid  and ridiculous as I have never seen a document like this but it doesn't look real.


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## Bronte (2 Dec 2013)

pig dog said:


> I explained to them that I woud commit to a repayment plan that I could hold to rather then commit to a plan that I simply couldn't afford.
> I was upfront and truthful with them and by and large kept to it.
> THEY AGGREED TO THIS!
> .


 
They did not agree to a replayment plan that one keeps to 'by and large'.  That's why they are pursing you.  If you had kept to what was agreed there would be no reason for them to go after you.  

What exactlty did they agree to, and was it in writing.


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## Bronte (2 Dec 2013)

pig dog said:


> .
> Its not that I don't want to pay but I need this to come to an end somehowas its again starting to destroy my life.


 
Well you must not let it affect you so badly. But you must deal with the letters you do receive. This is really important. By not dealing with them instead of the problem going away, it esculates to a level where you may not be able to deal with it properly. 

As Time said, don't worry about the sheriff, he can do nothing and will do nothing to you, that's just a pointless paper exercise. Can you tell us what exactly the judgements and/or letters are telling you to do now, or what are they informing you. 

(My comment re contract and freemen is based on other people who came on here with valid debts, that had been sold on, and they were now claiming that there was no 'contract' between them and the company suing them and the believed that this meant they didn't have to repay the debt).

What is it that you find odd about the solicitors for IJ?


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## Matthew Moore (2 Dec 2013)

pig dog said:


> IJ/Ashtown Solicitors.
> I know this sounds stupid  and ridiculous as I have never seen a document like this but it doesn't look real.



I have received something similar before. It had the appearance of a court judgement,  names dates etc  but said "draft" judgement if I remember correctly. It was basically a threat to get the real thing.


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## Bronte (2 Dec 2013)

pat2 said:


> . It had the appearance of a court judgement, names dates etc but said "draft" judgement if I remember correctly. It was basically a threat to get the real thing.


 
Nasty document then.  Purporting to be a real judgement but it was not.

PD or Pat2, any chance of a scan of the document (without out any identifying features)


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## Time (2 Dec 2013)

I suspect it is something similar. 

It is very unusual for IJ to issue in their own name. Normally proceedings would be issuing in the name of MBNA.


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## Bronte (2 Dec 2013)

Time said:


> I suspect it is something similar.
> 
> .


 
I think it's a despicable practice of any professional, banks, credit card companies or solicitors to issue documents that on a lay man reading it would be misled by same, and that this would lead to someone being in distress and confusion as a result of these underhand tactics.  The OP has not clarified if this is the situation now, but it was odd that she didn't know about the court date.


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## Time (2 Dec 2013)

In the circuit court a judgement in default is done without a hearing and without notice to the debtor. Judgement may be entered if no appearance is lodged within 10 days of the date of service of the civil bill.


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## Bronte (2 Dec 2013)

Ok so when the OP got the summons and ignored it IP were able to proceed to judgment.  It just shows that it's really really important people don't ignore correspondance and particularly court documents such as a summons or civil bill.


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## Time (2 Dec 2013)

It brings us back nicely to my key post.


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

Sorry about earlier Bronte. Was getting panicky.

To clarify: I didn't ignore the first one walker in the year. I rang them and tried to deal with the situation.
This one is from the district court and is stamped /signed by a judge.


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## Matthew Moore (2 Dec 2013)

Should have a copy still, I remember I emailed it to the guy in mabs I was dealing with as I hadn't a clue what it was.


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## Time (2 Dec 2013)

If it is the district court you should have been aware of the hearing date. 

Something is not right here.


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

Bronte said:


> Nasty document then. Purporting to be a real judgement but it was not.
> 
> PD or Pat2, any chance of a scan of the document (without out any identifying features)


 I will email a copy of it to Time later on and see what he thinks!


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## Matthew Moore (2 Dec 2013)

[broken link removed]
This is the letter I got nearly 2 years ago. There's another similar about, just can't put my hand on it. Mine was a "draft" Summons rather than a judgement. 
I was advised by Mabs that it was just scare tactics. I was engaging with the creditors at the time and they have still not got a judgement.


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## Time (2 Dec 2013)

That document clearly violates a number of district court rules. A clerk would refuse to accept that for stamping.


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

My one?


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## Time (2 Dec 2013)

pig dog said:


> My one?



There are a few things amiss with that decree. It does not mention the district number or the date of the sitting of the court. 

I would be checking with the district court to see if that record number exists.


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## pig dog (2 Dec 2013)

Thanks for that.
I will dig out the number and give them a ring and update from there!


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## Gerry Canning (3 Dec 2013)

pig dog.

Avant bought Mbna , just a name change , your debt is to Avant.

If Avant have moved it to Cabot to collect for them so be it.
Normally Cabot will accept any reasonable monthly type offer , I just cant see you in Court over this. Most Summons have the word DRAFT on them , if so it is not a real summons but an attempt to (frighten) funds from you.


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## Time (3 Dec 2013)

Pig Dog has what appears to be a judgement order. 

The judgement is in the name of IJ with an address in Stockholm Sweden.


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## pig dog (3 Dec 2013)

Didn't get a chance to do this today but is it the Summons office in Chancery St. that I will ring tommorow?


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## Time (3 Dec 2013)

You are looking for the Dublin Metropolitan District Court office. 

You just want to verify that the document is real.


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## pig dog (4 Dec 2013)

Ok.
Update time.
It looks like this is a real document.
Spoke to a helpful soul in the courts who said that the court date was at the start of the year and was finalised about 2 weeks ago.
Seems they went to court after I spoke to them early in the year regardless of me contacting them to set up an agreement to what I could pay.
He said that I could apply to the court for a set aside.
Let the hell continue.


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## Time (4 Dec 2013)

It is really up to you if you want to see if the judgement can be set aside. Your call.


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## pig dog (4 Dec 2013)

Yeah. Some very tough decisions to be made after Xmas.
I can send a registered letter to the solicitors to ask them for a copy of my signature as the original summons who have to be proven that I recieved it.
I just have to see if the revenue will accept lower payments which may involve another trip to court.


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## pig dog (4 Dec 2013)

OK. So after reading the key post/thread that Time pointed to earlier in the thread I sould wait till phase 2 happens and wait to be called before the judge and set out my financials.
Should I continue to repay them on a very regular basis?
Would this stand to me?
There is an outside possibilty that a sum of money will be coming my way at some stage
I was invovled in a road accident and was not my fault (witness's and other driver admitting). A solicitor took on my case s the were of full belief that I was entitled to compenstion.
If and how much and how long it will take is not known.
Shut up or say something?
At this stage its the only light I have!


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## Time (4 Dec 2013)

If you are paying them regularly they may not bother getting an instalment order.

If you stop paying them, they will seek an order fairly quickly in the new year.

As regards standing you that you are paying them, it would not matter a jot in court. The judge will just examine your means statement and make a decision as to what you can afford to pay if anything. If your only income was from welfare it is highly unlikely a judge would grant any order.


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## pig dog (4 Dec 2013)

Thanks as ever Time.


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## Bronte (5 Dec 2013)

pig dog said:


> Should I continue to repay them on a very regular basis?


 
Of course one should continue to repay debts if you have the means.  And for sure you need to react to any correspondance you receive.  Too many people stuff unopened envelopes into drawers.  That's only making the problem worse.


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## pig dog (5 Dec 2013)

Thanks Bronte.
I will send them a registered letter tomorrow outling the max amount that I can pay with a breakdown of income outgoings.
Will have to do this anyway for court.


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## Seagull (5 Dec 2013)

You need to bear in mind that while you view your mortgage as your most important payment, the credit company consider that repaying them should be your most important. The court will perhaps view them as equally important.

Basically, the question becomes "Why should your mortgage provider be repaid in full while other debts are not?"


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## Time (5 Dec 2013)

This is where a judge would come in handy for the OP. A judge would decide on this very point if IJ were to seek an instalment order.


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## pig dog (5 Dec 2013)

Surely the payment on a family home (secured debt!?!) would have priority over a dca (unsecured debt?!?!).
What would be the scenario if MBNA had written off the debt and now dca are trying to recover.
Would a credit check reveal this?
I mention this as MBNA are not mentioned on the actual court document but the dca


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## Time (5 Dec 2013)

MBNA has sold it to IJ for x amount. So as far as MBNA are concerned it is written off.


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