# Welfare for UK pensioners in Ireland



## penury (11 May 2012)

forgive me if this has been answered before, I couldn't find it on a search

We are a couple aged 67 and 66 living in the UK collecting just state pension (me full state pension & my wife her 60% of my pension), pension credit top up’s, I am also receiving AA. 

We have our own small terraced house paid for, so that we presume would be considered capital moving to Ireland - or would it?

Our daughter living in Roscommon wants us to move over to be with her and her family.

From reading several forums it would appear that moving to Ireland from the UK we’d lose the pension credit top up and council tax relief.

The question is, moving to Ireland what all exactly are we entitled to in any of the welfare benefits to make up what we would lose from the UK?

We plan to use the proceeds from the sale of our home in the UK to buy in Ireland as first time home buyers and any money left we’d stick under the mattress (safety deposit box or a no interest account) 

Thanks for any help


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## penury (11 May 2012)

thanks for the link cashier - it appears to fill in some of the blanks for now.

For the lost pension credit from the UK - what if anything would be available for us in Ireland. Is there an allowance top up of sort or something means tested like the UK pension credit?

I saw the part in the link with regard to 'household allowances', does that include welfare top up's to get any sort of minimum guarantee income - if so how does that work seeing we'd lose the pension credit from the UK?

If so, what would the max top up be for a retired couple

Thanks again for any support to my questions


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## penury (11 May 2012)

Appreciate the quick response again.

I missed it (call me lazy) now time for me to go do some leg work

Cheers


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## Black Sheep (11 May 2012)

There is also a Habitual Residence Condition which must be satisfied before any means tested allowances will be paid.
While residents of the UK have a right of residence in Ireland they may not have a right to obtain Irish payments here


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## penury (13 May 2012)

Black Sheep said:


> There is also a Habitual Residence Condition which must be satisfied before any means tested allowances will be paid.
> While residents of the UK have a right of residence in Ireland they may not have a right to obtain Irish payments here



Again both yourself and cashier have provided me with great information, together with further links to citizens info, I also read the Habitual Residence Condition Guidelines (H.R) guidelines.

If I may get your review on our circumstance relative to the H.R specific point as it would apply to my OP.

As though we'd made our application for welfare benefits specific to our situation, that based on the *5 points outlined in the H.R guidelines criteria below* - do you think we have we met the H.R condition?

-Length and continuity of residence in Ireland *(over 185 days as retirees permanent)*
-Length and purpose of any absence from Ireland *(none since we came)*
-Nature and pattern of employment *(NIL)*
-Your main centre of interest *(retired)*
-Your future intentions to live in Ireland as it appears from the evidence *(by the fact we have established - as follows)*

On the basis after 186 days (or sooner) of living in Ireland we have made Ireland our permanent home as retirees. Being over 66 years of age, we are collecting UK state pension, we have severed our residency ties with the UK (no property or bank accounts or other interests there), and by having a fixed address in Ireland, PPSN, having utility accounts in our names, bank accounts, on the doctors and dental register, a car, library cards, an Irish credit card used exclusively in Ireland, registered with and paying any Irish income tax and the neighbours just love us.

Would this satisfy the H.R condition without having to live in the state for two years or whatever the time frame is - if not, what else do you think would satisfy the H.R condition to qualify for any social welfare benefits?

Since we'd be coming from what is defined as the common travel area - "* under section 246(1) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005
A person does not necessarily satisfy the HRC merely because they have lived here for 2 years immediately preceding a claim. Also, a person is not necessarily disallowed on habitual residence grounds because they have NOT lived here for 2 years immediately preceding a claim.*"

Thanks for reading this and hopefully your response


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## Black Sheep (13 May 2012)

I would reply to the 5 categories slightly differently 

1 Residence:- Intend to live out our retirement in Ireland to be close to family
2 Absences:-  Only absences for holidays
3 Employment:- Retired
4 Main centre:- Daughter and family living in the west of Ireland
5 Intentions:-   As you have described.

As soon as you move you should apply for a medical card as you would be entitled to that under EU rules, no HRC required.

When you have established yourselves with a home, utilities etc. you could apply for 


Household Benefit Package
Free Travel
Top-up Pension
Just my opinion


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## ALEXA (13 May 2012)

It would perhaps have been a better idea to consider all the issues you have outlined in your OP before coming to live in Ireland. If you felt that your lifestyle would change due to losing pension credits and other benefits in the UK, maybe you would have been better off there despite the desire to be nearer your daughter. Habitual Residency rules are in place for a reason and if you satisfy them well and good but it is best not to believe that there is a way of gettiing around the rules and regs in order to obtain extra pension payments or household benefits. I wonder what the situation would be for an Irish pensioner couple moving to the UK and expecting to get these added benefits?


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## penury (13 May 2012)

Black sheep, thanks for that last reply.

When I opened the Welfare package link pertaining to 'Household benefits' and its application form HB1 - this form appears straight forward and I do nor see where it says or states when applying for household benefits that the HC1 form (Habitual residence) must be included.

Would you know if the welfare officer reviewing our HB1 form make a decision at that point with a approved/not approved, or immediately request the applicant (in our case) to also submit a HC1 form?


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## penury (13 May 2012)

ALEXA said:


> I wonder what the situation would be for an Irish pensioner couple moving to the UK and expecting to get these added benefits?



Alexa from my observation of others resident in the UK, the H.R condition appears to be very lax where the condition is only six months (26 of the last 52 weeks residence) for those with a right to reside in the UK free from any UKBA controls.

I also understand that in the UK people can leave for long periods to go live or stay in another EU state and continue to collect most all of the social/welfare benefits almost indefinitely - as long as their domicile or residency is UK

Imagine people from the UK living in Spain still getting the UK winter fuel allowance - now to me that is absolute stupidity.

In our situation moving to Ireland we would and could show that all ties to the UK has been severed.

I don't know the rules specific to Ireland, but I would think that under EU rules any Irish citizen/resident collecting any social/welfare, child, household benefit going sunny south for a few months each year would continue to collect those benefits?


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## Black Sheep (13 May 2012)

If you re-read my post I did not suggest that you require to comply with the HRC in order to obtain HB and Free travel, but you do need a permanent address, and bills from Electricity, Telephone & .TV. This will take some time.

I would also suggest that you put those bills in joint names, so that they can be used as proof of address by either or both of you 

Can't pre-empt how the Department will respond to your application I will just offer my favourite phrase "When in doubt always apply"


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## penury (13 May 2012)

thank you again Black Sheep


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## xeresod (14 May 2012)

penury said:


> ....We plan to use the proceeds from the sale of our home in the UK to buy in Ireland as first time home buyers ...



You will not be considered first time buyers - I don't know what the UK define as a first time buyer but here it's someone 


who has not on any previous occasion, either individually or jointly, purchased or     built on his/her own behalf a house (in Ireland *or abroad*) and
where the property purchased is occupied by the purchaser, or a person on his behalf,     as his/her only or principal place of residence and
where no rent, other than rent under the rent-a-room-scheme, is derived from the     property for five years after the date of the current purchase.
See [broken link removed] for full info.


However, the differing rates of stamp duty for first time and non first time buyers were abolished several years ago and now the rate is 1% (first €1m and 2% on excess) for all residential property purchases.


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## gipimann (14 May 2012)

penury said:


> I don't know the rules specific to Ireland, but I would think that under EU rules any Irish citizen/resident collecting any social/welfare, child, household benefit going sunny south for a few months each year would continue to collect those benefits?



In general, non-contributory welfare payments (e.g. Jobseeker Allowances, non-contributory pensions) are not paid outside of Ireland.   

Child Benefit is a bit more complex in that it's considered an EU family payment, so can, in certain circumstances, be paid outside the state.


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## penury (14 May 2012)

gipimann said:


> In general, non-contributory welfare payments (e.g. Jobseeker Allowances, non-contributory pensions) are not paid outside of Ireland.
> 
> Child Benefit is a bit more complex in that it's considered an EU family payment, so can, in certain circumstances, be paid outside the state.



On the basis that folks who are resident in Ireland receiving non-contributory benefits - would that also include household benefits? 

Even if they leave for short periods of 1-2 weeks for whatever reason, or is there a specific cap on time period away where benefits are still payable to them, or its simply zero payment no matter what? 

I'm guessing that folks collecting non-contributory means tested benefits should before leaving the state they'd have to inform the welfare office of the absence , as well as when they return?


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## gipimann (14 May 2012)

Short periods of absence (e.g. a week's holidays) wouldn't affect payments, but a longer term absence (e.g. moving abroad for several months of the year) would.  Per the Dept guidelines, payment of up to 13 weeks can be made on return from abroad but this would only be done once.    It is up to the customer to advise Dept of Social Protection of the change in circumstances - failure to do so can lead to overpayments which can be charged against the estate of the pensioner.

You must be permanently living in the state to qualify for Household benefits, so if a person moves abroad, the benefits will cease.


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## ALEXA (14 May 2012)

As far as I know people who are collecting non-contributary means tested benefits would be expected to inform Social Protection of any change in their circumstances including longer periods abroad. Short periods of 1-2 weeks would probably be allowed.
As regards expats living in Spain and getting winter fuel allowance - I am not a pensionerbut I have lived there both in winter and summer and although the days are milder in winter, the nights can get very cold as the houses are generally not constructed or insulated as in Ireland or the UK so they don't retain heat. Elderly folk are not always as mobile as they used to be and as a result feel the cold more hence the need for heat in winter. An added extra cost for them is cool air conditioning during the very hot summer months that would not be required in the UK so their winter and summer fuel bills would be similar and fairly high. If they have contributed to their home country for many years why wouldn't they be entitled to fuel allowance? You may say that it is their choice to go and live in Spain and so they should tolerate the variations in climate but unless you have experienced it for yourself it is unfair to make general statements.


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## Guns N Roses (14 May 2012)

Hi Penury,

You should bear in mind that your income from your UK pension will be deducted from any Non Contributory Pension that you may be entitled to in Ireland. The non-contributory pension in Ireland is currently €219. If your UK pension is more than that, you will get nothing.

You should however both qualify for a medical card.

As for whether you satisfy the habitual resident condition, I would apply anyway and see what happens. As the Social Welfare system works very slow in Ireland, by the time the application is processed you will have been here long enough to qualify. I would also draw attention to the fact that Ireland is now your Main Centre of Interest due to the fact that your family has settled here.


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## penury (14 May 2012)

many thanks again to everyone for the enormous wealth of helpful information so far


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## gipimann (14 May 2012)

Guns N Roses said:


> Hi Penury,
> 
> As for whether you satisfy the habitual resident condition, I would apply anyway and see what happens. As the Social Welfare system works very slow in Ireland, by the time the application is processed you will have been here long enough to qualify. I would also draw attention to the fact that Ireland is now your Main Centre of Interest due to the fact that your family has settled here.



Habitual Residence is decided based on the circumstances in place at the time of application, regardless of when it is actually decided.


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## Bronte (15 May 2012)

penury said:


> many thanks again to everyone for the enormous wealth of helpful information so far


 
Hi Penury, the pensions office is in Sligo and they are very nice to deal with. A phone call to them would be a very good idea. As you're fairly new on here be aware that the poster called Gipimann works in social welfare and really knows his stuff, so his posts should be of particular help to you. These things are quite complicated. Also Social welfare publishes a book with all the rules and another booklet with the rates of pay. I think by going onto the social welfare website you can order it.

And don't forget anything you're told on the phone you really need to check that it is true. 

Not sure of your circumstances but their used to be an Irish organisation who helped to bring back emigrants and settle them in places like the West of Ireland, not sure if they still exist (maybe another poster knows their name) but the local Irish center in your area of the UK might know.

Another place for helpful advise is the 'citizens advice centers'.


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## Bronte (16 May 2012)

Hi Cashier, I didn't open the link until now. I guess that must be the organisation I was referring to, somehow I thought they were in Co. Clare, it was a programme on RTE a couple of years ago. Looks like an organisation that Penury should contact for help. It's not easy to move country and one can do with all the help one can get, especially if pension age.


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