# Frequent plumbing problems in apartments



## NoBother (28 Apr 2010)

I wonder if anyone has come across a similar situation to the one I've outlined and pursued it with the developer of their apartments. If so, your experiences and any guidance would be welcomed.

The apartment I bought in in 2007 (development completed in 2006) is in the main very nice and well finished. I am on the residents committee and in recent days we have realised that problems with plumbing are a very frequent occurrence and related damage has cost individuals (and everyone else via our buildings insurance as a result).

Last weekend, an apartment on the 6th floor ended up with their bath overflowing. It did not go over the side of the bath, but via the bath overflow it resulted in apartments down to the 1st floor (ground is commercial) experiencing water flow and in some cases damage. On inspection by a plumber, it appears that the overflow pipe in the apartment on the sixth floor had been very crudely fitted, resulting in it cracking - which caused the flooding at the weekend.

When we discussed it via email among the residents committee members it turns out that at least 75% of us have had some problems with the plumbing (from leaking radiators which have had to be replaced to leaking pipes, boilers and water tanks) some of which have resulted in significant expense due to water damage. There has such a frequency of water damage claims that, although our general buildings cover excess is €500, the excess for water damage claims has been increased to €2,500.

Some people have tried to pursue the plumbers on their own, but realised it was not worth their while, but as a group of residents (if committed), we could have more clout/options.

We could sit and wait for problems such as this to continue, with the possibility that our development could get a reputation as having structural plumbing problems (which when the property market eventually starts up again could affect our property values). Alternatively, we can look at what options are open to us to get the problem sorted.

The good news is that the developers of our apartments are still in business and seem to be doing relatively ok given the very difficult operating environment. They must be aware of some of the problems that people have/are experiencing. That said I can't see them jumping at the idea of committing to remedying the situation. 

I figure we need to get some sort of assessment to determine how bad the problem is. If it is determined to be ,particularly bad compared to what would normally be expected, we purchased from the developers and it was up to them to check that the work of those they contracted to do the plumbing of of a reasonable quality (as such flaws could not be identified through a snag check).

Does anyone have any views/experience of something like this (possibly doesn't have to be plumbing only)?

Thanks

NoBother


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## mathepac (28 Apr 2010)

NoBother said:


> ... Does anyone have any views  ...


Yes. As a purchaser you had the opportunity (responsibility?) to snag /  inspect / survey the property you intended buying, be it new or old. If  you failed to, then to a degree you've been the architects of your own  problems. The old "but the bank did a survey" doesn't hold water as  these "surveys" are really just valuations along the lines of "Is it  there, is it standing up, does it seem to be worth the asking price?"

Please don't get me wrong. I feel for property owners who are victims of  greedy developers and banks, lazy money-grabbing tradesmen, poor legislation and nonexistant consumer  protection.

You can try talking to the developers about possible remedies, but I  think I can predict the outcomes of the discussions.


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## Yorrick (29 Apr 2010)

A lot of the work done in the last ten years was done by ordinary building workers rather than by qualified tradesmen. Plumbing by its nature is hidden away behind walls etc and the sloppy workmanship cannot be seen. It is only when a problem arisies that you can see the bad joints, inadequate seaking etc.


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## net64 (29 Apr 2010)

As Yorrick has said it would be very hard with plumbing to see the problems using baths etc until one moves in.Is this sort of problem not covered by Homebond and do you have it?

net64


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## mathepac (29 Apr 2010)

net64 said:


> ....Is this sort of problem not covered by Homebond and do you have it? ...


Homebond is for structural defects only, not for defects in services (gas, water, sewage, electricity).


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## Complainer (29 Apr 2010)

NoBother said:


> When we discussed it via email among the residents committee members it turns out that at least 75% of us have had some problems with the plumbing (from leaking radiators which have had to be replaced to leaking pipes, boilers and water tanks) some of which have resulted in significant expense due to water damage. There has such a frequency of water damage claims that, although our general buildings cover excess is €500, the excess for water damage claims has been increased to €2,500.
> 
> Some people have tried to pursue the plumbers on their own, but realised it was not worth their while, but as a group of residents (if committed), we could have more clout/options.


Is the plumber a 'mark', i.e. are there assets there that could be siezed to pay for any court award? If not, you are just wasting your time.


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## whackers (29 Apr 2010)

NoBother

The only other option to "soften" the blow for all residents is to joint claim on the block insurance excess,  by that way if 3 apartments are damaged by the upper apt leak,  the costs will be divided,  and possibly using the same contractor you may get a better price.  Its still not ideal but better.

This plumbing problem is indicative of SO many apartments.  The other factor to know is that it is not the Management Agent's responsibility to sort out the problem (eg, service charges),   they can help mediate between you and the developer/builder but ultimately they are only responsible for the common areas.  Hope this helps.


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## samphire (1 May 2010)

On a slightly different, but related note, I only have contents insurance.  Am now wondering if I can take out some sort of insurance to cover the huge excess on the bloc policy?


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## NoBother (1 May 2010)

Thank you everyone for your opinions. mathepac, I understand that we had an opportunity to snag, but many of these issues relate to things that could not reasonably be snagged. I can't imagine that it would be considered appropriate to ask for the bath to be lifted during the snap to see that the pipes we ok and you can't see the inside of a radiator - hence my belief that it was the developers responsibility.


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## DianeC401 (4 May 2010)

Hi Nobother,

This situation occured in our development when we had recurrent,problems with leaks, all of which were similar. We tackled the builders on it as soon as it became apparent (luckily they were still on site). Because they were a reputable firm who are thankfully still in business they eventually agreed to replumb all apartments in the development. 

I wasn't on the Board or Committee when these negotations took place so I don't know all the ins and outs of it but I believe it came down to a fairly obvious and crucial design fault that was apparent throughout the whole block. The plumbers concerned had gone out of business but as the Builders had contracted the work to them and it was done in their name, they agreed to sort out the issues. 

This settlement was not agreed overnight and I am sure if they can possibly get away with it, you builder will. But equally so, don't give up hope completely. 

You should consider getting an expert independent evaluator in to check all of the plumbing. It will cost you money but would be a necessary expense. 

If the surveyor/evaluator considers that you have a valid claim - ie, the problems are down to faulty plumbing installed when the development was built, I would appoint a solicitor who can approach your builder and negotiate with them.

I can assure you another few years of claims like this and your insurer will be asking for much more than a €2.5k excess. In addition the problems are only beginning to appear now - they are likely to be much worse a year or so down the line as more pipes crack and burst through repeated use.  

You should keep a careful record of each and every plumbing problem that occurs in your development to see if there is some sort of pattern that emerges. This record can also be used in negotiations with the builders.

Good luck with it!


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