# Is executor liable for funeral costs  if estate lacks funds?



## pcocp (24 May 2016)

An elderly man passes away, pre deceased by his wife, there are no children. 

It seems the house was in her name only and in her will it was left to a nephew of hers, who lives abroad. Her husband was given a life interest, and never told anybody the situation until shortly before death. There were and are no other assets, only a small amount of money in one bank a/c. 

It seems he made a will at the same time his wife did, with the same solicitor. He appointed a nephew of his the executor of his estate, and never told him. 

This nephew did what he could for him anyway over the years, as there was nobody else nearby anyway. 

So now he's deceased, the nephew organised the funeral. Now he's spoken to the solicitor and the only asset of any value is to be transferred to the deceased wife's nephew. This is not in dispute. 

But, there is not enough money, by a big margin, in the estate to pay for the funeral and a legal bill and anything else that might come up. 

The house is to be sold at the first opportunity by the wife's nephew. 

Will the executor find himself personally liable for the costs of funeral etc ?


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## priscilla (24 May 2016)

The executor maybe able to apply for the death benefit grant to cover the cost of the funeral.


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## mf1 (25 May 2016)

Would the extended family not step in?

Inasmuch as the executor organised the funeral and engaged the undertakers, they have some responsibility - an executor should always check that funds will be available. 

And it may be up to the nephew benefitting to stump up the Probate fees.

mf


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## Bronte (25 May 2016)

mf1 said:


> Would the extended family not step in?
> 
> Inasmuch as the executor organised the funeral and engaged the undertakers, they have some responsibility - an executor should always check that funds will be available.
> 
> ...



Is it not the case if you hire the undertakers you are the person liable.  Ditto the solicitor doing probate, if they were also hired by him.

Maybe it will all pass smoothly and the solicitor will pay the undertakers and all costs will be taken from the sale price.


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## mf1 (25 May 2016)

"all costs will be taken from the sale price."

Ideally, yes. It is the practical solution. 

But, theoretically, the only asset here is the house which does not form part of the man's estate - his interest in the house died with him. 

The house is part of the aunt's estate. 

And the benefitting nephew might take the view that all of this has nothing to do with him!

People can be very tight.

mf


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## pcocp (25 May 2016)

The nephew of the deceased man did hire the undertakers. He did not hire the solicitor, he's only acting on what little information he was given by his uncle before his death. Which was only to contact the solicitor who prepared both wills for this now deceased couple. 

The nephew is not experienced in anything to do with legal issues like this. 

Could he be faced with a situation where, after being appointed executor without his knowledge, he could be left to pay these legal and funeral bills, bearing in mind he can't afford to and the other nephew most likely won't agree to?


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## Sophrosyne (25 May 2016)

pcocp,

Did the nephew do anything else other than arrange for the funeral?


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## mf1 (25 May 2016)

1. Can the family get together and pay the funeral bill? 
2. The executor nephew does not have to act - he can renounce. No further legal responsibility , No exposure to legal bills. 

But someone, somewhere, sometime, is going to want to sort  all of this out. There is generally someone with a titter of wit who will take it on. 

mf


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## pcocp (25 May 2016)

mf1 said:


> Would the extended family not step in?
> 
> mf



There is no extended family. The only living relatives are the nephew and his mother, the deceased mans sister. All his relatives through marriage live abroad, and never had any contact with him, or the nephew. Until he died. 



mf1 said:


> 1. Can the family get together and pay the funeral bill?
> 2. The executor nephew does not have to act - he can renounce. No further legal responsibility , No exposure to legal bills.
> 
> But someone, somewhere, sometime, is going to want to sort  all of this out. There is generally someone with a titter of wit who will take it on.
> ...



1 might be possible, and it's a maybe at best, if 2 can be guaranteed.


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## pcocp (25 May 2016)

Sophrosyne said:


> pcocp,
> 
> Did the nephew do anything else other than arrange for the funeral?



No.


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## Steven Barrett (25 May 2016)

How about the guy inheriting the house footing the bill? He's the only one gaining financially from this arrangement? Will he watch other people paying bills for funerals and legal fees, while he gets a tens of thousands of euro?


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## mf1 (25 May 2016)

"Will he watch other people paying bills for funerals and legal fees, while he gets a tens of thousands of euro?"

He wouldn't be the first person to decide that, following legal advice, these are not his problems!

Meanness being justified by technical position. 

mf


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## Sophrosyne (25 May 2016)

Sophrosyne said:


> pcocp,
> 
> Did the nephew do anything else other than arrange for the funeral?





pcocp said:


> No.



Then the nephew does have to act as executor, he can renounce the role.

Has the inheriting nephew actually been approached regarding the funeral expenses or is it an assumption that he will not pay the bill or at least contribute?


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## Steven Barrett (25 May 2016)

mf1 said:


> "Will he watch other people paying bills for funerals and legal fees, while he gets a tens of thousands of euro?"
> 
> He wouldn't be the first person to decide that, following legal advice, these are not his problems!
> 
> ...



They could be made his problems by the other nephew renouncing his role and the property being stuck in probate. Force his hand (out of his deep pockets  )

Steven


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## Sophrosyne (25 May 2016)

***


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## Sophrosyne (25 May 2016)

SBarrett said:


> They could be made his problems by the other nephew renouncing his role and the property being stuck in probate. Force his hand (out of his deep pockets  )
> 
> Steven



That's not the case Steven

The uncle only had a life interest in the property.

The property would be sold by the executor of the aunt's estate.


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## Thirsty (25 May 2016)

Re Bereavement Grant - this is long gone. Was abolished several budgets ago.

Best option for Nephew is to renounce Executor role; and send invoice for funeral to beneficiary.


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## llgon (25 May 2016)

The man's nephew didn't know he was executor but took responsibility for organising the funeral.  As there is so little left in the man's estate, the funeral expenses are likely to be a lot more significant than legal expenses I would think.

When organising the funeral what arrangements were made with the undertaker, catering etc. by the nephew regarding who would pay them?

It is also stated that the house is to be transferred to the wife's nephew.  Why had this not been done previously? Who is the wife's executor? I'd imagine her nephew would end up having to pay the legal costs of this if no-one else will.


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## pcocp (25 May 2016)

Sophrosyne said:


> Has the inheriting nephew actually been approached regarding the funeral expenses or is it an assumption that he will not pay the bill or at least contribute?



It is an assumption. The correct one in my opinion going on past form. 



Thirsty said:


> Best option for Nephew is to renounce Executor role; and send invoice for funeral to beneficiary.



Yes I agree with this approach. 



llgon said:


> The man's nephew didn't know he was executor but took responsibility for organising the funeral.  As there is so little left in the man's estate, the funeral expenses are likely to be a lot more significant than legal expenses I would think.
> 
> When organising the funeral what arrangements were made with the undertaker, catering etc. by the nephew regarding who would pay them?
> 
> It is also stated that the house is to be transferred to the wife's nephew.  Why had this not been done previously? Who is the wife's executor? I'd imagine her nephew would end up having to pay the legal costs of this if no-one else will.



He made the arrangements on the assumption that at least the cost of the funeral would have been provided for in the estate, and these bills would be paid in due course by the solicitor. 

The executor of the wife's estate who died before him was her husband. The man who is now deceased.


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## llgon (25 May 2016)

It seems to me that the man's nephew has agreed these costs in a personal capacity as he was not acting as executor when arranging the funeral.  If it had turned out that somebody else had been named as executor I don't think the executor would be held liable.  Therefore renouncing his role now will not make any difference.

The uncle has left his nephew in a very difficult situation by not making him aware of the situation, leading him to making unwise assumptions when arranging the funeral.  I think the nephew is now dependent on the goodwill of the wife's nephew, other relatives and/or the creditors to avoid being liable himself for funeral costs.


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## SparkRite (8 Jun 2016)

pcocp said:


> An elderly man passes away, pre deceased by his wife, there are no children.
> 
> It seems the house was in her name only and in her will it was left to a nephew of hers, who lives abroad. Her husband was given a life interest, and never told anybody the situation until shortly before death. There were and are no other assets, only a small amount of money in one bank a/c.




Just re-read this thread, and unless I am missing something obvious,  my understanding was that the wife could only bequeath her share of the house ie. 50%,  as her husband surely owns the other 50% as per family law, regardless of only one name being on the deeds ?

Unless being given a "life interest" satisfies that requirement. 

Can anybody clarify, please?


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## mf1 (8 Jun 2016)

The husband would have had to lay claim to his share - 50% of the deceased wife's estate - it is not an automatic vesting of a 50% share and he should have been served with a notice by the executor of his entitlement. This may have happened - we're not told. Some people take the view that they would not upset a will, whatever their legal entitlements.

If he made no claim but accepted the life interest that's the end of it. 

mf


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## SparkRite (8 Jun 2016)

mf1 said:


> The husband would have had to lay claim to his share - 50% of the deceased wife's estate - it is not an automatic vesting of a 50% share and he should have been served with a notice by the executor of his entitlement. This may have happened - we're not told. Some people take the view that they would not upset a will, whatever their legal entitlements.
> 
> If he made no claim but accepted the life interest that's the end of it.
> 
> mf



Thanks for clearing that up, I just thought the wife wouldn't have been allowed to "play around" with the husbands entitlement at all.


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## DirectDevil (15 Jun 2016)

I was wondering about the late husband's rights too.

Specifically, I thought that a spouse had an absolute right to appropriate the house and household goods and chattels under section 56 of the Succession Act 1965.

S.56 link http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1965/act/27/section/56/enacted/en/html#sec56

If that holds here was the wife's original will not defectively drafted i.e. being allowed to make a bequest contrary to her obligations under the 1965 Act ?

Is it possible for the husband to have renounced his entitlement before his death by taking the supposed life interest ? Sounds decidedly odd.


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## mf1 (15 Jun 2016)

The surviving spouse has to elect - it is not an automatic situation


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1965/act/27/enacted/en/print#sec115

"If that holds here was the wife's original will not defectively drafted i.e. being allowed to make a bequest contrary to her obligations under the 1965 Act ?"

Solicitor's advise, clients make their own decisions. It is more likely that she was told and opted not to listen. It is a common misapprehension that solicitors "allow" their clients to do anything!

mf


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## Branz (15 Jun 2016)

SparkRite said:


> Just re-read this thread, and unless I am missing something obvious,  my understanding was that the wife could only bequeath her share of the house ie. 50%,  as her husband surely owns the other 50% as per family law, regardless of only one name being on the deeds ?
> 
> Unless being given a "life interest" satisfies that requirement.
> 
> Can anybody clarify, please?



Does it not depend on the ownership structure: tenancy in common versus joint tenancy.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...es/property_rights_and_unmarried_couples.html
She might have owned it all?

I may be wrong here, am just looking at this idea  for a friend from the perspective of trying to protect his half of the estate on his death so I may be all wrong here..


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## mf1 (16 Jun 2016)

She held the property in her sole name

mf


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