# Is Bertie Delusional?



## Shawady (19 Oct 2011)

This guy just gets worse.
He is now blaming the media for not following the economy enough because they were too interested in the Mahon Tribunal.
He also blames FF's poor showing in the polls for him not having a chance at the presidency. Nothing to do with his personal credibility of course.

[broken link removed]


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## thedaras (19 Oct 2011)

Yes...


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## Firefly (19 Oct 2011)

I think he had a point.... Maybe he should repay and forego his lavish expenses to fund the investigation he calls for?


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## Chris (19 Oct 2011)

I actually think that "delusional" is too kind a word to describe this imbecile.



> On the economy, Mr Ahern said there was “not a lot” he would have done differently.


Is he for real?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?



> On the Department of Finance’s reports on the economy, Mr Ahern said: “In fairness, the Department of Finance give you warnings about everything”.


And it was his job to ignore them all?!?!?!?!?!?!?


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## dereko1969 (19 Oct 2011)

Is this a rhetorical question???


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## Purple (19 Oct 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> Is this a rhetorical question???



It must be.


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## TRS30 (19 Oct 2011)

Purple said:


> It must be.


 
Your delusional if you think otherwise


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## Yorrick (19 Oct 2011)

While he cant blame individual media members newspapers certainly had no difficulty making millions from advertsisng properties. 
Some of the property supplenents were twice the size of the main newspaper.
However you cant blame the brothel owners if the customers wants to waste their money on extras


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## Locke (19 Oct 2011)

It's just amazing.

I mean.....just amazing.


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## Sunny (19 Oct 2011)

I think he has a point. 

Bertie for President anyone??? Anyone.......


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## micmclo (19 Oct 2011)

Bertie resigns
Just a few months later the country enters recession
Coincidence? I think not

Come back Bertie, sorry for ever doubting you


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## Sunny (19 Oct 2011)

micmclo said:


> Bertie resigns
> Just a few months later the country enters recession
> Coincidence? I think not
> 
> Come back Bertie, sorry for ever doubting you


 
He retires from his seat as FF TD and the party implodes at the polls. 
Coincidence? I think not.


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## micmclo (19 Oct 2011)

Some tried to debate about the property market but the thread was shut down and posters got banned


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## Purple (19 Oct 2011)

Yorky said:


> I recall many posts filled with hubris on AAM mentioning Ireland being a_ model economy_ and_ punching above its weight_. There was no mention of Bertie's flaws then.


ahhhh, there was.

I've been posting my opinion of him for years. OK, a watered down version so I didn't get banned.
I voted FF under Reynolds but never voted for them when Bertie was in charge. It’s an understatement to say that I passionately despised him both as a person and a politician. He personified everything that was wrong with Irish politics in particular and Irish society in general.


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## Purple (19 Oct 2011)

Yorky said:


> Indeed. Bertie was a hugely popular politician as he essentially gave people what they wanted and was representative of the general population.
> 
> With regard to his personal finances and Revenue escapades, again he was representative: "Ah sure, wouldn't I do de same ting meself.."



I never remember that being said on AAM. If it was it was certainly not a consensus view.


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## cork (19 Oct 2011)

I am going out on alimb here - but governments take advice from the civil service.

The ESRI predicted a soft landing.

The Central Bank had a job to do.

The Regulator had a job to do.

What many are doing is blaming Bertie.

People believed the Celtic Tiger was a reality. So did the whole public service.

Many got things wrong including politicians.


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## Purple (19 Oct 2011)

cork said:


> I am going out on alimb here - but governments take advice from the civil service.
> 
> The ESRI predicted a soft landing.
> 
> ...



Bertie was in charge.


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## T McGibney (19 Oct 2011)

> But, man, you're never going to get any truth from us. We'll tell you  anything you want to hear; we lie like hell. We'll tell you that, uh,  Kojak always gets the killer, or that nobody ever gets cancer at Archie  Bunker's house, and no matter how much trouble the hero is in, don't  worry, just look at your watch; at the end of the hour he's going to  win. We'll tell you any **** you want to hear.



Howard Beale


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## cork (20 Oct 2011)

Purple said:


> Bertie was in charge.




But many factors were outside his control.

It was turned into a politicalfootball by Labour & FG.

Bertie had only the advice of the public sector to rely on.

This is my major gripe.

The ESRI gave out very timid warnings.


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## Purple (20 Oct 2011)

cork said:


> But many factors were outside his control.


He aggressively pursued pro-cyclical economic policies as Minister for Finance and Taoiseach. He was in charge. That didn’t mean that he was just a mouth-piece for his advisors, it meant that he set government policy. 
The world and it’s mother knew that we were losing competitiveness, that we were in the middle of a massive property bubble and that our current expenditure was being financed by the capital tax receipts from that bubble. If he didn’t understand that he had no business taking the job. His defence seems to be that it wasn’t his fault because he didn’t understand what’s going on or, in summary “I’m thick, it’s everyone else’s fault for not telling me what to do".




cork said:


> Bertie had only the advice of the public sector to rely on.
> 
> This is my major gripe.


 When you are in charge it’s your job to assess the quality and veracity of the advice and information you receive. There were thousands of column inches written my  economists and commentators, both domestically and internationally, who were crying foul. It seems that none of them took his advice and killed themselves but the same cannot be said for some of the victims of this recession. 



cork said:


> The ESRI gave out very timid warnings.


True but they aren’t the centre of the universe.


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## Complainer (20 Oct 2011)

cork said:


> But many factors were outside his control.
> 
> It was turned into a politicalfootball by Labour & FG.
> 
> ...



This an extreme spin on the facts.

Bertie and co had lots of warnings. Check out the chip on Youtube of John Fitzgerald from ESRI giving a very non-timid warning on Govt policy. I saw Charlie McCreevy on Reeling in the Years explaining how ALL the other 14 European finance ministers were wrong and he was right. The external report into the Dept Finance showed all the warnings that Bertie and Brian chose to ignore.

Bertie's last straw was to suggest that anyone who was 'talking down the economy' should kill themselves, because he didn't want to hear their message.


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## cork (20 Oct 2011)

Complainer said:


> Bertie's last straw was to suggest that anyone who was 'talking down the economy' should kill themselves, because he didn't want to hear their message.



This was ideed an unfortunate comment.

What politician likes negative comment on the economy?

When an economy needs growth - politicians worldwide rally aganist negative comment.

The ESRI predicted a "soft landing".

THe ESRI were surposed to be pretty clued in.


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## liaconn (20 Oct 2011)

cork said:


> But many factors were outside his control.
> 
> It was turned into a politicalfootball by Labour & FG.
> 
> ...


 
He consistently ignored advice from the Dept of Finance, who warned him of the dangers of his fiscal policies.


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## Complainer (20 Oct 2011)

cork said:


> The ESRI predicted a "soft landing".
> 
> THe ESRI were surposed to be pretty clued in.


Not true. Here's what the ESRI said as far back as 2000, and here's Bertie, Harney and McCreevey dumping on their advice;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM


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## Firefly (20 Oct 2011)

Complainer said:


> Not true. Here's what the ESRI said as far back as 2000, and here's Bertie, Harney and McCreevey dumping on their advice;
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM



A great clip and one that should be shown to every kid in secondary school to prepare them for the future.


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## cork (20 Oct 2011)

Advice on the soft landing came came the ESRI.

The ERSI did give some qualifying remarks but they remained pretty positive with regards the frenzy.

We also had the regulator + central bank who saw no danger.

WE had a media that were more pre-occupied producing property supplements.


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## liaconn (21 Oct 2011)

Yorky said:


> So why did no-one have the prescience to occupy Dame Street then? Preoccupied with enjoying the spoils aka snouts in the trough


 
What are you on about??


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## Purple (21 Oct 2011)

Firefly said:


> A great clip and one that should be shown to every kid in secondary school to prepare them for the future.



+1, great clip. 
Good find Complainer!


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## onq (21 Oct 2011)

Complainer said:


> Not true. Here's what the ESRI said as far back as 2000, and here's Bertie, Harney and McCreevey dumping on their advice;
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWbrFy5NWM



Thank you for posting this.

2000 was a busy year for us and I honestly don't remember this newscast.

However the stone-throwers seem to be operating solely with the benefit of hindsight.

There was a general feeling around at the time that supported Bertie's stated position on returning emigrants.


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## Complainer (21 Oct 2011)

onq said:


> However the stone-throwers seem to be operating solely with the benefit of hindsight.
> 
> There was a general feeling around at the time that supported Bertie's stated position on returning emigrants.



Some of us had more than hindsight. Some of us had a track record of attacking FF's over generous supports for property developers for many, many years. Some others didn't want to listen.


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## liaconn (21 Oct 2011)

onq said:


> Thank you for posting this.
> 
> 2000 was a busy year for us and I honestly don't remember this newscast.
> 
> ...


 

But he was in charge and he was getting expert advice and he refused to listen to it.


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## DB74 (21 Oct 2011)

Great clip

Should also be noted that thousands upon thousands of Irish people ignored the fact that Bertie & Co ignored the warnings and voted them all back into power in both 2002 & 2007


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## Teatime (21 Oct 2011)

Complainer said:


> Bertie and co had lots of warnings.



Its the "and co" bit that I think cork is getting at and I am inclined to agree with him. I have been reflecting on this and it's too easy to blame Bertie for everything. For a start he had a cabinet full of strong individuals who seem to have kept the head down. 

I was talking to a banker recently and he said the pressure to grow business (mainly through mortgages) was intense after 2000. He said he was constantly shown how rival banks were doing in terms of new loans etc. But he rarely heard anything about a potential bubble and risk went out the window.


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## Time (22 Oct 2011)

I would vote for Bertie for president over any of the current idiots running.


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## Purple (23 Oct 2011)

Time said:


> I would vote for Bertie for president over any of the current idiots running.



I'd vote for any of the current idiots ahead of Bertie. I'd campaign for Dana to keep Bertie out.


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## shammy feen (7 Nov 2011)

purple said:


> i'd vote for any of the current idiots ahead of bertie. I'd campaign for dana to keep bertie out.


 
+1


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## Purple (7 Nov 2011)

DB74 said:


> Great clip
> 
> Should also be noted that thousands upon thousands of Irish people ignored the fact that Bertie & Co ignored the warnings and voted them all back into power in both 2002 & 2007



I think that had as much to do with the dunderheads running FG and Labour rather than a ringing endorsement of Bertie and co.


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## Purple (7 Nov 2011)

Teatime said:


> Its the "and co" bit that I think cork is getting at and I am inclined to agree with him. I have been reflecting on this and it's too easy to blame Bertie for everything. *For a start he had a cabinet full of strong individuals who seem to have kept the head down. *



Strong individuals? Strong as in thick-headed strike politicians I’ll go with but strong as in understanding their brief and standing up to pressures in order to do the right thing; no, not a chance.
The only FF person of substance who stood up to Bertie (and also stood up to CJH), was Seamus Brennan. He was left out in the cold by both of them because of that.


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## T McGibney (7 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> I think that had as much to do with the dunderheads running FG and Labour rather than a ringing endorsement of Bertie and co.



Come on now, I think we've heard the old 'it was the fault of the opposition' line far too often at this stage.

And, regardless of your political persuasion, it is plainly ridiculous to describe Michael Noonan, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte or Enda Kenny as 'dunderheads'.

The bottom line is that Bertie Ahern devised and executed a brilliant but unsustainable strategy of tricking the people by bribing them with their own money. And when the people's money ran out, he kept this up by borrowing until the economy collapsed.The politicians who didn't participate in this charade were ridiculed as 'dunderheads' (and worse), and the 'cribbers and moaners' who pointed out the fallacy of all of this were told to 'go off and commit suicide'.


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## cork (7 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> And, regardless of your political persuasion, it is plainly ridiculous to describe Michael Noonan, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte or Enda Kenny as 'dunderheads'.



The 07 manifestos of both FG and Labour in he 07 election were vote grabbing.

In the election prior to that FG wanted to compansate Eircom shareholders.

This was the bubble mindset.

FG wanted to cut stamp dut to re-start the property bubble in the 07 election.


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## T McGibney (7 Nov 2011)

cork said:


> The 07 manifestos of both FG and Labour in he 07 election were vote grabbing.
> 
> In the election prior to that FG wanted to compansate Eircom shareholders.
> 
> ...



Did you bother reading the rest of my post? The bubble mentality of the time was created first and foremost by Ahern's auction politics. Tax relief for the victims of the Eircom scam was in only in the ha'penny place compared to the naked vote buying that was going on up and down the country.  FG and Labour learned to their cost in 2002 that they had no hope of beating Ahern until they emulated him. Btw, all election manifestos are vote grabbing, what else is their purpose? 

The biggest idiot in the Dail was running the country like a casino and his spindoctors and their media friends were contriving to create an impression among the public that he was a genius and anyone who opposed him was an idiot. Hence he was described as 'Bertie' even in purportedly serious news media and commentary when practically every other politician was referred to by their surname. The amazing thing is that despite the fact that Ahern's idiocy has been cruelly stripped bare in the meantime, people are still going around rehashing his and his cronies discredited charges that serious politicians like Quinn and Rabbitte were idiots or dunderheads - while the likes of Harney, Gormley and Dempsey enjoy millionaire's pensions at public expense.


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## Shawady (7 Nov 2011)

There is a programme on tonight about Cowen and reading one of the reviews, it makes a point I've made before on AAM. That Bertie replaced McCreevy with Cowen after a bad performance in the 2004 elections, and suddenly became a socialist. The social welfare increases in the period 2004-2008 were huge in relation to inflation. They were done purely for political reasons.


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## Purple (7 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Come on now, I think we've heard the old 'it was the fault of the opposition' line far too often at this stage.
> 
> And, regardless of your political persuasion, it is plainly ridiculous to describe Michael Noonan, Ruairi Quinn, Pat Rabbitte or Enda Kenny as 'dunderheads'.
> 
> The bottom line is that Bertie Ahern devised and executed a brilliant but unsustainable strategy of tricking the people by bribing them with their own money. And when the people's money ran out, he kept this up by borrowing until the economy collapsed.The politicians who didn't participate in this charade were ridiculed as 'dunderheads' (and worse), and the 'cribbers and moaners' who pointed out the fallacy of all of this were told to 'go off and commit suicide'.



I’m not for a minute blaming the opposition for what Bertie did. I’m just pointing out that they weren’t an attractive alternative.
I wouldn’t describe the current government as covering themselves in glory. I had very low expectations of Kenny and he’s still succeeded in being a disappointment. 
The only opposition politician that called for a halt to the massive spending programmes under the FF/PD and FF/Green governments was Richard Bruton. 
Michael Noonan was an abject failure as FG leader and hasn’t inspired as Finance minister, simply implementing to the letter the policies of his predecessor. 
I have a lot of respect for Ruairi Quinn but he’s not steering the ship or anywhere near the tiller.
Pat Rabbitte talks a good game but what’s he done?


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## T McGibney (7 Nov 2011)

I'm not defending any of those guys' records but surely it is a bit simplistic to label them all (including Bruton) as 'dunderheads'?

The bubble-era opposition  weren’t considered an attractive alternative simply because they didn't have access to the national finances and couldn't compete with the government parties' relentless use of these funds to bribe the electorate. When you look closely at it, the parties in power were hardly attractive themselves?


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## Purple (7 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> The bubble-era opposition  weren’t considered an attractive alternative simply because they didn't have access to the national finances and couldn't compete with the government parties' relentless use of these funds to bribe the electorate. When you look closely at it, the parties in power were hardly attractive themselves?



I agree, my point is just that there wasn't a clear, attractive alternative.
Oppositions are always populist, that’s the nature of our adversarial system. That’s why I don’t buy into the “It’s not the government’s fault; the opposition were as bad” argument. My point is simply that a bland career back-bencher who was pushed to the front of the class and a former Workers Party TD who used to espouse the virtues of Soviet Russia are not great alternatives to what we had.


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