# Bounced Cheque



## Kingdom (30 Nov 2008)

Can anyone advise if the following is a criminal offence and if not why not?
A person pays for goods received (A Credit account was not in operation) by cheque while in the full knowlege that there are no funds in the bank account to back it up. The cheque bounces, a new account is opened in a different bank and a new cheque book obtained with no funds of substance lodged. A new cheque is issued to replace the previous one and this one bounces also.

Does the bank bear any responsibility to others who are now at the mercy of this irresponsible person who armed with a cheque book goes out and obtains goods while paying for them with worthless pieces of paper?


Thanks in advance for any assistance.


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## mercman (30 Nov 2008)

Simply I don't think there is a whole lot you can do, unless the amount is vast to cover the cost of legal fees. Was the amount under the cheque guarantee level ? These are dangerous times for trading so don't e surprised that it will not happen again.


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## johnjoda (30 Nov 2008)

A quick call to your local Garda station , furnish them with the details and a contact number  for the debtor if possible, it has worked for me twice now, getting paid without solicitors involvement and expense etc. I believe it is an offence to issue a cheque with knowledge that the payment will not clear


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## PaddyBloggit (30 Nov 2008)

I was always under the impression that's it's an offence to write/utter a cheque if there aren't adequate funds to cover it.

johnjoda ..... *snap*


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## Kingdom (30 Nov 2008)

mercman said:


> Simply I don't think there is a whole lot you can do, unless the amount is vast to cover the cost of legal fees. Was the amount under the cheque guarantee level ? These are dangerous times for trading so don't e surprised that it will not happen again.


 
The amount is almost €3000.

I spoke to a Solicitor who said it was 'Fraud' and to report it to the Gardai.
I then spoke to a detective who said that the bank would need to have written to him stating that 'he was not to issue any cheques' in order for a crime to have been committed.

Who is correct?


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## johnjoda (30 Nov 2008)

Kingdom said:


> The amount is almost €3000.
> 
> I spoke to a Solicitor who said it was 'Fraud'.
> I then spoke to a detective who said that the bank would need to have written to him stating that 'he was not to issue any cheques' in order for a crime to have been committed.


 

 Fraud is fraud, garda are there to investigate such allegations, as for banks writing a letter to the cheque drawer, surely the letter you got from your bank notifying that your lodgment had bounced should suffice ? . In my experience any cheque that has a chance of clearing through the system has been endorsed by the bank ( please represent)


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## Kingdom (1 Dec 2008)

What is the legal time limit (from the date written) on a Cheque these days?


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## PaddyBloggit (1 Dec 2008)

Some info here for you: 

and here: [broken link removed]

and here: [broken link removed]


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## Kingdom (1 Dec 2008)

Thanks for that Paddy,
Unfortunately the first link seems to confirm what the Detective said and the second link doesn't apply because the Small Claims court doesn't apply to a business trying to reclaim monies for whatever reason. It only applies to consumers who have a problem with a business.

Small businesses are the most disenfranchised group of all in the Irish economy. 
If we are late with Revenue Payments, the Sheriff is called in pronto.
If our Employees have a gripe, the local solicitor will have a field day.
If our Suppliers are owed money - they don't supply any more goods and send the Sheriff.
If we're in the red the bank charges outrageous interest and gives you days to sort things out.
If you don't pay your Rates the Council takes you to Court etc etc.
If you don't pay your Lease / Rent your out on your ear.

Contrast the above to Big Business and Joe Bloggs. 
Joe Bloggs gets handouts from all quarters if he's in diffs.
Big Business gets unlimited loans at favourable interest rates and the Revenue doesn't do a damm thing except sit back and wait to see if they pay arrears.
Most of the Retail Chains in Ireland and the UK Owe Millions to the Banks and Revenue and yet are allowed to continue trading regardless.


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## jhegarty (1 Dec 2008)

PaddyBloggit said:


> I was always under the impression that's it's an offence to write/utter a cheque if there aren't adequate funds to cover it.
> 
> johnjoda ..... *snap*




It is. I knew someone who was done for writing bad cheques all over town. There was about 10 of them , but all less then €100.


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## Kingdom (1 Dec 2008)

The previous link posted by Paddy gives a description of what Cheque Fraud is, but it doesn't mention this particular scenario.

Do you have any newspaper names and dates relating to the case your referring to?

Tks


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## Mpsox (1 Dec 2008)

When I lived in the UK we had the flatmate from hell who would go off and open a bank account and get a cheque book, then write cheques left right and centre which would bounce and when the bank got angsty, he would go off and open an account with another bank. After we threw him out, we ended up getting quite friendly with the debt collectors who used to call every week looking for him 

In terms of the bank's responsibility, unless you can in someway prove that the bank did not follow it's proper account opening procedures, it's doubtful that you would have any case against them. 

Hate to say it, but given goods out to a customer who only pays be cheque is risky, as you have little comeback if the cheque bounces and the customer is a chancer as seems to be the case here. 

Have you tried approaching the customer in question and advising him that you will be setting debt collectors on him? A scare might work

My experience of the Gardai are that they are not interested in cheque fraud such as this as it is almost impossible to prove that the customer did not know the funds were in the account or deliberatley opened up and operated and account in the manner described.


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## Kingdom (1 Dec 2008)

Mpsox said:


> When I lived in the UK we had the flatmate from hell who would go off and open a bank account and get a cheque book, then write cheques left right and centre which would bounce and when the bank got angsty, he would go off and open an account with another bank. After we threw him out, we ended up getting quite friendly with the debt collectors who used to call every week looking for him
> 
> In terms of the bank's responsibility, unless you can in someway prove that the bank did not follow it's proper account opening procedures, it's doubtful that you would have any case against them.
> 
> ...


 
Tried all the easy things so far without success. Calls, txts & Registered Letters threatning the Garda on him have been ignored. He had a previous good history with cheques but when he got into diffs, instead of working his way out of trouble, he run away. I offered to take small amounts per week / month but my offers were not even acknowledged.

The laws in this country are a joke - in France he would be arrested and put in Jail for doing this.


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## Padraigb (1 Dec 2008)

I think it would be hard to make a case for fraud stick if you are the only person affected. The issuer of the cheque might say that he intended to lodge money to cover the cheque, but that something, such as a business difficulty, prevented him. 

The bank has no responsibility to you.

In general, matters like this are more for civil law than for criminal law. The District Court can deal with claims of up to €6348. So you can sue the issuer of the cheque by bringing him to the District Court. Because of the special legal status of cheques, if you turn up in court with a dishonoured cheque as your evidence, the case is almost certainly going to be a walkover.


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## Kingdom (1 Dec 2008)

Padraigb said:


> I think it would be hard to make a case for fraud stick if you are the only person affected. The issuer of the cheque might say that he intended to lodge money to cover the cheque, but that something, such as a business difficulty, prevented him.
> 
> The bank has no responsibility to you.
> 
> In general, matters like this are more for civil law than for criminal law. The District Court can deal with claims of up to €6348. So you can sue the issuer of the cheque by bringing him to the District Court. Because of the special legal status of cheques, if you turn up in court with a dishonoured cheque as your evidence, the case is almost certainly going to be a walkover.


 
It's looking like that will be my only recourse.


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## Padraigb (1 Dec 2008)

Kingdom said:


> It's looking like that will be my only recourse.



That was what I thought.

If you are under serious financial pressure, you do not need to engage a solicitor (although I would use one in a position like yours). You can go to the office of the District Court and deal directly with the Clerk of the Court in order to get a place in the court list and have a summons issued.

You might find that receipt of a summons will be enough to get the individual to take his liability to you seriously. The likely cost to his reputation, as well as his pocket, might focus his mind.


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