# Can a Fás Safepass course be cancelled on the morning?



## dcity91 (27 Jun 2011)

I have no work today.

My boss told me to get a Safepass course sorted out , I was enrolled on two courses, saturday 18th and 25th. On the 17th, I got a call to say the course for the 18th was changed to the 25th. I was siting down in the room last Saturday, and after a while a guy said the course was cancelled. He said a few people did not come, and he was going home. I paid them €100, I was there for an hour, I did get my money back. But what about my job, I needed it for today to work on a new site. Some of the guys that were there were not happy. 


Can this company do this to me?
Should I report them to Fás? 
Can I sue? 
I intend to try to get this on to Joe Duffy.
Where can I get a course?


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## Latrade (27 Jun 2011)

Couple of issues to sort out first:

1. Do you work for contractor or agency?

2. How much notice did you have that you needed the SP course?

The ultimate point is that no, you can't sue the training provider. Cancellations happen, if it is essential to your job, then it should have been organised more in advance. 

Depending on the answers to 1 & 2, there may be some element of compromise with the "boss", but if you're an agency worker and either didn't have or didn't renew your SP in good time, then ultimately you will have no complaint, recourse or need to phone Joe Duffy.


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## dcity91 (27 Jun 2011)

I work for a contractor.
I got 2 weeks notice to get a safepass, 
it had to be saturday or sunday, as the employer would not pay me while i was there.

I thought it very strange that I was in the room, had a form filled in, paid the firm, gave them photos, and was told later the course was cancelled.


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## birdy (27 Jun 2011)

It is FAS rules that there is a minimum of 8 people in a safepass course, any less than this and the course can't go ahead. The provider was falling the rules. If 8 people didn't show up, they can't go ahead, it happens. If they did go ahead, FAS wouldn't process the application, so theres no point.

If you google safepass or go on to the FAS website there are lots of providers however, with the down turn in the construction industry it is hard to fill the courses, hense they can be cancelled. 

What you can do is ask your provider to put your name down for the next available course, and no safepass happens on a sunday. As far as I can see you would have no grounds to sue.


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## Latrade (27 Jun 2011)

dcity91 said:


> I work for a contractor.
> I got 2 weeks notice to get a safepass,
> it had to be saturday or sunday, as the employer would not pay me while i was there.
> 
> I thought it very strange that I was in the room, had a form filled in, paid the firm, gave them photos, and was told later the course was cancelled.


 
As birdy says there is a minimum number for attending.

Do you work full time for the contractor or just started? Next silly question, is this your first time on a construction site or is this a renewal of existing SP?


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## dcity91 (27 Jun 2011)

I had a safepass card, but it has expired, apparently it was only valid for 4 years. I dont mind having to renew it, as that could help to remind me of things. 

Why must there be 8 on a course?
Who came up with this rule?

Do Fas know people are out of work and need this course to get work. 
Looks like I will be on social welfare for a while because of this rule. There were others there on the day who needed it for work today as well.

Can the Unions do anything about this crazy rule?


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## Latrade (27 Jun 2011)

dcity91 said:


> I had a safepass card, but it has expired, apparently it was only valid for 4 years. I dont mind having to renew it, as that could help to remind me of things.
> 
> Why must there be 8 on a course?
> Who came up with this rule?
> ...



You're paying €100 for the course, there are costs associated with running a session and so all training courses have a minimum number to make them economic to run. 

You had a card in your possession that clearly stated when it would expire. Your job relies on you entering a construction site therefore you had plenty of notice it was due. it was left very late for you to renew your SP, that's not the training provider's fault. 

There is a potential issue if you are directly employed by the contractor and not subbing or a casual contract. In that case there is are requirements that training is paid time off and they should have organised the renewal sooner. If that is the case it could possibly be unfair that you are not able to work due to that error, as a minimum you should not have to have paid if you are a direct employee.

There


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## millieforbes (27 Jun 2011)

The course might be less likely to be cancelled if planned for a week day - given you can't work now, you should check out if this would be a better option


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## dcity91 (27 Jun 2011)

Latrade said:


> all training courses have a minimum number to make them economic to run.


 
  As far as I know there was 7 people there. if it was cancelled for money reasons, I am sure the 7 of us would have paid an extra 15 euro, and that would cover the lost money.

What Minister deals with this? This is something that perhaps the media should hear about.


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## dcity91 (27 Jun 2011)

millieforbes said:


> The course might be less likely to be cancelled if planned for a week day - given you can't work now, you should check out if this would be a better option


 
That is a good idea. Now that I am unemployed I have been told Fas might pay for it. Does anyone know if this correct?


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## Latrade (27 Jun 2011)

dcity91 said:


> As far as I know there was 7 people there. if it was cancelled for money reasons, I am sure the 7 of us would have paid an extra 15 euro, and that would cover the lost money.
> 
> What Minister deals with this? This is something that perhaps the media should hear about.



I'm sure both the Minister and the media will drop everything to deal with your complaint about a business complying with the standards set by the competent authority for this training. Don't forget to tell them the training provider didn't even offer to take a bribe in order to ignore these rules and provide you with an invalid certificate. 

You're picking the wrong fight if you are in full time employment you could have a strong case against the employer (or if considered an employee not a contractor yourself). If not, then you either let expire or didn't attain the required training before working. If it us the latter, then the only person to complain to about your current circumstances is yourself. 

If it is the former, then as I say your complaint is with your employer. 

Sorry to be so blunt, but it is not the training provider's fault this was arranged so late.


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## dcity91 (27 Jun 2011)

Still confused why there must be 8 on this course, what is special about 8. I dont understand what you mean about bribe, if the trainer wanted 8 on the course to justify costs, I am sure everyone would have paid the money he was loosing. If it was that 8 people must take part , I could have got my wife, my son or my next door neighbour to take part in it. 

Putting it very simply I am now out of work because of this course being cancelled two times. It appears the course was called off last Saturday because some did not show up. Would a football match be called off if one player failed to show up?

What has 8 to do with standards?


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## Latrade (28 Jun 2011)

You're deflecting the problem. How long did you know you needed a safe pass for and how many of the tens of training providers did you check out? 

As to the limits on numbers, that's part of the standards for being approved to run a course. It's there for several reasons but the main one was representation from the training provider in that the fee for the course is low and to make it economical to organise, Market, hold, administer and deliver a course there has to be a minimum number.

Not saying I agree with it, but that's what they now have to operate to. 

As I have said numerous times, if you are under a contract of employment you have a genuine case for your current situation. If you are considered self employed, then ultimately you didn't make sure you had the right certification in time. Again to be blunt, if it is the latter, it is your own fault. 

In order to discuss whether you have a case against anyone, you need to stop avoiding the issue and answer the question of if you were under a contract of employment.


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## dcity91 (28 Jun 2011)

First I heard about this was on the week that the first course was cancelled. I booked onto the course which was to be run on sat 17th, i was contacted on Friday to say it was being changed to the 25th, so i went to that course. As stated earlier I was in the venue, had filled in the forms,(actually I still have the form) and after a while told the course was cancelled. There was no reason for me to contact any other training firm. 

€100 is expensive, it is a nice bit out of my wages. .It is more that half of what I will now get on Job seekers benefit
 If a trainer considers 7 X 100 not enough money, they must be living the high life. 

Not sure what you mean by a contract of employment. I am working with this guy for 3 years, but i have no contract or anything.


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## birdy (28 Jun 2011)

Latrade said:


> so all training courses have a minimum number to make them economic to run.


 
This is irrelvent in the case of Safepass, FAS rules state you need 8 and that's the rule, obviously for the provider the more they have the better but under 8 and the course can't go ahead. 

To be honest the demand for safepass is very low at the moment, and it is private operators that run the course not FAS, they process the cards, so its actually very little to do the course.

if you are working in the construction industry, it would be common knowledge to ( well in my company anyway) to get your safepass renewed at least 3 months before its due to expire not the day before.

You will have a better chance of getting a course on weekday also, much better chance of being full


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## dcity91 (28 Jun 2011)

Thanks, I did not know about the 3 months, it does not say it on the Fas card


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## Complainer (28 Jun 2011)

dcity91 said:


> Not sure what you mean by a contract of employment. I am working with this guy for 3 years, but i have no contract or anything.


Are you an employee or a contractor? Do you look after your own tax, or does he deduct PAYE for you?


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## Kerak (28 Jun 2011)

Its Fas rules, used be min 10 and max 20, reduced to 8 at last review. Its a ridiculous rule , if a client wants one person trained and is willing to pay for it so be it. They( FAS) talk about the exercises needing a min number and the class dynamics be wrong with small numbers, tosh!
The whole safepass program is and has been poorly thought out for years. Trapping active working people in a classroom for 8 hours min, the retention of most people has drifted before the 10 o clock tea. When employers paid for it that was often a huge part of their H&S budget for the year, little or no consideration in the past to poor writing skills, deafness, overseas workers. 
In its early days, a grant was available to pay for the training, the 5 or 6 big contractors hovered up most of the grant aid in the first few months. I used accept a voucher for the unemployed issued by their welfare officer to help them get back to work, and indeed often accepted an unemployed candidate on a pay when you get work basis ( some did many did not) Then there is the 12-16 week wait for cards, pritned in an other EU state rather than here( EU rules blamed)

An yes I was a Safe pass tutor, but haven't run a course in 5 years , and yes I did very well out of it in the boom times, but note I gave it up before the boom burst, it was soul destroying. 
Thank God for the break up of FAS, and may the Safe Pass unit ( other then the pleasant enough junior admins) be broke up and scattered to the four corners of builders hell.

phew that feels good.

PS original poster, look at back to work/ SW/Fas officer /etc for grant assistance, use a local mid week provider if unemployed, and if its 100 euro or less bring your own sandwich's.


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## dcity91 (28 Jun 2011)

Thanks everyone, yes the employer deducted Paye and tax from me, at least I can now get Jobseekers benefit. Delighted to hear the response from the Safe pass tutor. Many thanks everyone.


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## Latrade (28 Jun 2011)

dcity91 said:


> Thanks everyone, yes the employer deducted Paye and tax from me, at least I can now get Jobseekers benefit. Delighted to hear the response from the Safe pass tutor. Many thanks everyone.



In that case you may have a case for penalisation if you wished to pursue such a case against your employer. 

It is their duty to train you. 
They must pay for the training.
You have lost pay/your job as a result.


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## dcity91 (29 Jun 2011)

I asked other construction workers, they all had to pay for the safepass themselves. I doubt very much if any employer will pay for this in these times. I rang up Fas, and they seemed unsure about who should pay for the safepass, jobs advertised on their website require construction workers to have a safepass.


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## Latrade (29 Jun 2011)

The employer must pay for it under current legislation if you are a PAYE employee.


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## Kerak (29 Jun 2011)

In 2005 at a conference in the IMI, the estimate of more than 1/2 billion euro was raised as to the cost of Safe Pass at that time,  600,000 days wages, 600,000 days lost productivity, and 600,000 course fees. The return was, a minuscule decrease in incidents per 100,000 workers. 1/2 billion euro would run the the HSA for 25 years, or double or treble its inspection and enforcement function for 10 years.


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## dcity91 (29 Jun 2011)

That is a lot of money. Sounds like the whole thing has gone out of control. It has for me as I am now out of work. If a firm can not get enough people to run a course in Dublin, what hope has the rest of the country. I think the idea is good, but lets face it, canceling the course because a few did not show up is pure rubbish. 

Would CIE cancel a train, and order everyone off the train, if they discovered there are not enough passengers on the train? I can accept cancelling it when the people get a weeks notice. Because it carried the Fas badge, it is Fas who should answer for this problem.


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## Complainer (29 Jun 2011)

Kerak said:


> The return was, a minuscule decrease in incidents per 100,000 workers.


Can you be more specific on this please?


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## Kerak (29 Jun 2011)

The data that was used( from HSA annual reports and publications)
rate per 1000, illness and injury
2001 48.6
2002 45.8
2003 54.9
2004 61.0
2005 60.9
updated
2006 62.6
2007 57.8

Fatalities per 100,000
1999 3.5
2000 3.5
2001 3.0
2002 3.0
2003 3.3
2004 2.5
2005 3.2
2006 2.5
2007 2.75

So did 1/2 billion up to 2005 and likely the same since made much of a difference?


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## Complainer (29 Jun 2011)

When did Safepass start?


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## AlbacoreA (29 Jun 2011)

Seems like a money spinner IMO.


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## Kerak (29 Jun 2011)

trials in 2000, voluntary 2001-2, legal requirement for construction, LA and security employees since 2002


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## Complainer (29 Jun 2011)

And what about the accident rates prior to introduction, e.g. 1997-2001? I've had a look on the HSA website, but it doesn't seem to go back that far.


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## Latrade (29 Jun 2011)

Kerak said:


> trials in 2000, voluntary 2001-2, legal requirement for construction, LA and security employees since 2002



Strictly speaking it's only a legal requirement for those involved in the allied trades on a construction site. Most others didn't need to do the course. 

And the HSA didn't see any if the money, FAS only saw a relatively small portion of the money too. The test during the boom was training organisations. 

Are those stats overall figures or specific to construction?


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## Kerak (29 Jun 2011)

no, they are general industry, but you can from HSA stats extract Construction figures if you wish( as was done for the conference I mentioned)
Agree the trainers and training organization did very well, so did hotels, they switched from room hire and teas and coffees with a bar lunch to
" delegate rates with free room hire" doubling their take.

Was/is common knowledge that as Fas middle managers retired they where given crash course in construction safety and made up to be Safe Pass tutors. Also family memebers with Little or no construction experience got on the Safe pass tutor list as well.

Was suggested that a levy on construction in the early 0's, ring fenced for HSA , improving their inspection , enforcement, education and advice services but at the time Fas empire was growing and Safe Pass and CSCS schemes where favored.

As a safety professional, the improvements from the CSCS schemes is evident( dumper drivers, teleporter drivers banksmen and especially scaffolders etc) but I still fail to see a clear benefit from safe pass, a good site specify induction, well thought out and delivered and re-enforced would be more useful- and as employees moved around during the good times they would have it repeated till some of it stuck!


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## greengrass64 (30 Jun 2011)

Course paid for in full????, you were there for 1 hour, at the appointed place, and time???,they did not provide what they were contracted to do???? while I would need further information. Seems to be a clear breach of contract. You need legal advice.


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## dcity91 (27 Jul 2011)

Good news at last. 
I started a new job two weeks ago. 

I managed to get a safepass course that went ahead.
If fairness to the course I found it useful, and am happy with it, and can not fault it.

I am not happy about the cancelled course, and I now have a solicitor working on it, so far the training firm has made an offer which was rejected by the solicitor, as he checked with a barister who said I am entitled to lost earnings up to the day when I started my new job. So it looks like good news for me.


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## ISHTN (25 Oct 2013)

I can see that this post is over 2 years old, but I'll try anyway. I'm  very interested to know what was the outcome of legal action against the  training company. 

If by any chance dcity91 you are getting a  notification on your e-mail that there is a response to your thread  please contact me at marszep@yahoo.co.uk

We are trying to put a  case to FAS in relation to this issue (minimum number of Safe Pass  participants) and a real case would be definitely a help.

Many thanks,

M


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