# Is building more homes the only answer?



## Purple (16 Aug 2022)

AJAM said:


> There is only 1 answer to the housing crisis. Build more houses!


Maybe, but, for example, average household sizes have decreased significantly in the last 30 years. It's gone from 3.34 people in 1990 to 2.75 people in 2022. There are 1.9 million households in Ireland so that decline alone accounts for 335,000 homes. That's a hundred billion Euro worth of homes at todays costs.

Why can't we have more intergenerational households? What's wrong with moving in with Granny?


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## ThatNewGuy (16 Aug 2022)

Purple said:


> Maybe, but, for example, average household sizes have decreased significantly in the last 30 years. It's gone from 3.34 people in 1990 to 2.75 people in 2022. There are 1.9 million households in Ireland so that decline alone accounts for 335,000 homes. That's a hundred billion Euro worth of homes at todays costs.
> 
> Why can't we have more intergenerational households? What's wrong with moving in with Granny?



Nothing! In fact I know several people who tried to do that but couldnt find any suitable properties - only one achieved it, by moving quite far away.

Other questions;
- Why can't we build houses with basements that could be convertible to room space
- Why can't we mandate that all apartment complexes have basements that act as garden sheds for people who want to live long term in apartments but also have active / cluttered lives
- Why can't we build big continental style 8ish story housing blocks covered in playgrounds and other amenities, connected to the heart of the city with endless tram line options
- Why can't we build american style retirement villages people in their 60's+ would be delighted to move to with their friends and increase traditional housing stock churn
- Why can't we build co-living developments that dont cost the same as standalone house/apartment rents

etc.


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## odyssey06 (17 Aug 2022)

ThatNewGuy said:


> Nothing! In fact I know several people who tried to do that but couldnt find any suitable properties - only one achieved it, by moving quite far away.
> 
> Other questions;
> - Why can't we build houses with basements that could be convertible to room space
> ...


Because any common area would be wrecked by a bad tenant who is impossible to remove and you will get zero support from authorities.


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## Purple (17 Aug 2022)

odyssey06 said:


> Because any common area would be wrecked by a bad tenant who is impossible to remove and you will get zero support from authorities.


Is there an opportunity to use tax breaks and increases in property tax for under populated households to encourage people to live in intergenerational homes?


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## Gordon Gekko (17 Aug 2022)

Building more homes is clearly not the only answer.

We could bring McKinsey in and pay them €10m to tell us that we should start killing people.


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## ryaner (17 Aug 2022)

While I'd agree that building more is part of almost any answer - we are increasing the population after all - it isn't just a case of build more houses. Building more of different types. Look at continental style smaller single person apartments around the 20-25m size. There are loads of people who would jump at places like that given the only similar option is house sharing.

Strengthening the ability for apartment owners to turf out the bad tenants is also needed. One bad tenant in a block can destroy the quality of life of everyone else, and there is currently next to nothing that can be done.


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## Peanuts20 (17 Aug 2022)

One of the issues with intergenerational houses is care, in the past, the woman/wife was often at home so was able to act as primary care giver for elderly parents or parent in laws. In my own case, that's how my 2 grannies were cared for as my Mam and an aunt on the other side never worked outside the home. The same applied for most of my neighbours and friends families as well (and I'm just stating simple facts of the past here in rural Ireland). 

Nowadays, with most women working outside of the home, that option isn't there and the care packages from the HSE or private providers is simply inadequate in many cases. 

As for building more houses, that's a partial but simplified solution, we need to build communities with facilities, not lines of rabbit hutches but we also need to think outside the box and see how we support families in other means in a practical and sensible manner


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## Purple (17 Aug 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> One of the issues with intergenerational houses is care, in the past, the woman/wife was often at home so was able to act as primary care giver for elderly parents or parent in laws. In my own case, that's how my 2 grannies were cared for as my Mam and an aunt on the other side never worked outside the home. The same applied for most of my neighbours and friends families as well (and I'm just stating simple facts of the past here in rural Ireland)
> 
> Nowadays, with most women working outside of the home, that option isn't there and the care packages from the HSE or private providers is simply inadequate in many cases.


So would incentivising and supporting people to move back towards that more traditional living arrangement by improving the care packages and home help and increasing the grants for changing the house to accommodate elderly residents be cost effective? 

Not only would it keep an elderly person (or persons) out of a n expensive nursing home for a longer time time but it would remove the necessity for an additional housing unit. The economic and social benefits seem obvious. It would be good to see them quantified.


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## lff12 (18 Aug 2022)

Purple said:


> Maybe, but, for example, average household sizes have decreased significantly in the last 30 years. It's gone from 3.34 people in 1990 to 2.75 people in 2022. There are 1.9 million households in Ireland so that decline alone accounts for 335,000 homes. That's a hundred billion Euro worth of homes at todays costs.
> 
> Why can't we have more intergenerational households? What's wrong with moving in with Granny?


There are 500,000 more people to move in with granny. At the same time as having smaller households, we've both increased minimum room and home sizes for each type AND gained a lot more children, returned emigrants and immigrants.


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## lff12 (18 Aug 2022)

ryaner said:


> While I'd agree that building more is part of almost any answer - we are increasing the population after all - it isn't just a case of build more houses. Building more of different types. Look at continental style smaller single person apartments around the 20-25m size. There are loads of people who would jump at places like that given the only similar option is house sharing.
> 
> Strengthening the ability for apartment owners to turf out the bad tenants is also needed. One bad tenant in a block can destroy the quality of life of everyone else, and there is currently next to nothing that can be done.


One of the unspoken reasons for Finland's success in reducing its unpalatable level of homelessness in the late 1980s from over 20,000 to very little now, is that they realised that homes in urban areas were being built too large, which made them more expensive. They reduced sizing minimums, and you can buy a studio with about 25m2 in urban cities for about 160k. OR rent it. Compensated for this by having more shared services in blocks like laundries, secure bike parking and saunas.

Agreed RE bad tenants - a lot gets said about landlords problem with bad tenants, but they REALLY make other tenants lives miserable too.


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## Purple (18 Aug 2022)

lff12 said:


> There are 500,000 more people to move in with granny. At the same time as having smaller households, we've both increased minimum room and home sizes for each type AND gained a lot more children, returned emigrants and immigrants.


I don't disagree with you but the main driver for decreasing household size is not increasing room size. We actually have 1,500,000 more people to house; the population in 1991 was 3.534 million. It's now in excess of 5.1 million and rising. 
My point is that over a hundred billion worth of the residential housing construction between 1991 and now, approximately335,000 housing units, has resulted in a net zero increased in people housed. I think that should be part of the housing conversation.


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## LS400 (18 Aug 2022)

Purple said:


> What's wrong with moving in with Granny?



Because as much as she/he loves you, they like their own space.

Walking around Ikea last week with my Daughter and I was admiring the compact studio room, and how practical it was, My Daughter who lived in Korea for a stint says her Apt was even smaller and was perfect for her time there.

Dublin is bursting at the seams, but very few would want to move away to the mid-lands.

Its sad to say, but I think its too broke to fix for the up and coming next generation. "Its not said in a "I give up" attitude, Its that past performance from the people who can make change haven't done so, and it hard to have confidence in any of political parties.    

I say that, because as a small time Landlord, Im still earning a reasonable income to invest in Rental properties, which I have enjoyed doing for a good few years, now I want out.

I have been a stepping stone for a good few tenants who generally stay with me for about 3 years before they move on to the next stage of their lives, as in purchasing their first home, I m now of the  opinion, i need to be lucky all the time with my Tenants, they only have to be Lucky once.


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## Purple (18 Aug 2022)

LS400 said:


> Because as much as she/he loves you, they like their own space.


Don't we all but a bit of social engineering through the tax system to encourage better utilisation of out 1.9 million homes wouldn't go amiss. 
We'll build 25,000 units this year. Since 1991 the reduction in household size has consumed an average of over 10,000 units a year without housing a single extra person. That trend has reversed slightly over the last few years due to our population increase but as supply increases it will probably revert back to the longer term trend. 


LS400 said:


> Walking around Ikea last week with my Daughter and I was admiring the compact studio room, and how practical it was, My Daughter who lived in Korea for a stint says her Apt was even smaller and was perfect for her time there.


Absolutely, we need small studio apartments. If I had the choice between that or even a bedsit and sharing a house with strangers I know what I'd prefer.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Aug 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> One of the issues with intergenerational houses is care, in the past, the woman/wife was often at home so was able to act as primary care giver for elderly parents or parent in laws. In my own case, that's how my 2 grannies were cared for as my Mam and an aunt on the other side never worked outside the home. The same applied for most of my neighbours and friends families as well (and I'm just stating simple facts of the past here in rural Ireland).
> 
> Nowadays, with most women working outside of the home, that option isn't there and the care packages from the HSE or private providers is simply inadequate in many cases.
> 
> As for building more houses, that's a partial but simplified solution, we need to build communities with facilities, not lines of rabbit hutches but we also need to think outside the box and see how we support families in other means in a practical and sensible manner



Also people live longer with serious conditions that are beyond the means of the family to manage. often the family home isn't suitable. Smaller homes might not have the space for bed hoists, stairlifts etc.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Aug 2022)

Purple said:


> Don't we all but a bit of social engineering through the tax system to encourage better utilisation of out 1.9 million homes wouldn't go amiss.
> We'll build 25,000 units this year. Since 1991 the reduction in household size has consumed an average of over 10,000 units a year without housing a single extra person. That trend has reversed slightly over the last few years due to our population increase but as supply increases it will probably revert back to the longer term trend.
> 
> Absolutely, we need small studio apartments. If I had the choice between that or even a bedsit and sharing a house with strangers I know what I'd prefer.



Consider 3 or 4 people all studying, working from home. Sound isolation is a problem in modern builds.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Aug 2022)

We also build complex expensive buildings. We need temp emergency housing. We have a mild climate. Why we can't build prefab housing as a temp measure I have no idea. After the 2nd world war in the late 40's & 50s many countries build them. 









						1940s Prefab at Chiltern Open Air Museum
					

Chiltern Open Air Museum have reconstructed a 1940s prefab. Find out more about it.




					www.youtube.com


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## lff12 (18 Aug 2022)

Purple said:


> Don't we all but a bit of social engineering through the tax system to encourage better utilisation of out 1.9 million homes wouldn't go amiss.
> We'll build 25,000 units this year. Since 1991 the reduction in household size has consumed an average of over 10,000 units a year without housing a single extra person. That trend has reversed slightly over the last few years due to our population increase but as supply increases it will probably revert back to the longer term trend.
> 
> Absolutely, we need small studio apartments. If I had the choice between that or even a bedsit and sharing a house with strangers I know what I'd prefer.


Absolutely correct. The amount of single FTBs desperate to buy a 3 bedroom home is exasperating. While some are thinking of renting a room in order to help with the mortgage the majority will simply become storage rooms for hoarding unless the FTB forms a family.

Absolutely we need studios, but current building code insists that "studio apartments" are sized no smaller than 40 square meters which is bigger than most 1990s 1 bedroom apartment builds which are usually 33-38 square meters. One of the reasons Finland reversed a horrendous homelessness problem of around 20,000 people was that they explicitly recognised that they were building homes that were simply too big, and reduced the minimum size. You can get a studio there that is 25 or 27 square meters and there is no stigma or snobbery attached to it, either to buy or to rent. If you even suggest building 40m2 studios here there are howls of rage from people who very often have no housing needs themselves but have some strange idea that other people's housing choices is going to somehow hurt their interests.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Aug 2022)

You can rent a room to help with costs. 

Also it can be hard to move on from an apartment or studio. So families end up stuck in a tiny space.


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## Purple (18 Aug 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> Also it can be hard to move on from an apartment or studio. So families end up stuck in a tiny space.


Why?


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## PGF2016 (18 Aug 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> You can rent a room to help with costs.
> 
> Also it can be hard to move on from an apartment or studio. So families end up stuck in a tiny space.


It can be hard to move on from any accommodation that is too small. I don't see that as being a reason to not build studio apartments.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Aug 2022)

Purple said:


> Why?



When the economic times are bad. People end up stuck for for years. This was issue with all the small apartments they built in the 90s. 

One of the trends of the housing crisis, internationally is a lack of mobility, being able to trade up or down. Or even change location. 

So a multi bedroom apartment or house is more flexible in how it can be used than single room properties. Some people prefer to give themselves those options.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Aug 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> It can be hard to move on from any accommodation that is too small. I don't see that as being a reason to not build studio apartments.



No. But its just why people buy with spare capacity in case they need it in the future.


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## Purple (18 Aug 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> When the economic times are bad. People end up stuck for for years. This was issue with all the small apartments they built in the 90s.
> 
> One of the trends of the housing crisis, internationally is a lack of mobility, being able to trade up or down. Or even change location.
> 
> So a multi bedroom apartment or house is more flexible in how it can be used than single room properties. Some people prefer to give themselves those options.


Okay, I was thinking more of young people renting studio apartments.


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