# How has the recession affected you?



## thedaras

I was thinking about this today,and to be honest I see no sign of it around my area.
I don't know any one where I live that has lost their jobs,the cars are from 06 to 10, the extensions and garden work is on going.A lot of the houses would have been purchased at the height of the boom,so presumably the mortgages are big.

The local cafes still have the morning crew for coffee etc,the pubs are quiet Monday to Thursday,but I think that has more to do with the smoking ban.The shopping centre/hair dressers/beauticians is still busy,the kids are still doing their after school activity's,etc etc,.

I don't mean for those who have lost their jobs,but for those who still have jobs,how much has it affected you personally..

I suppose what Im saying is that their are still a lot of people who have jobs, OK their income has been reduced,but it doesn't seem to be badly affecting what they do,and by doing what they are doing ie; spending money,they are obviously keeping others in jobs.


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## RMCF

I'm glad to say, and this isn't meant as a gloat, but things haven't really changed for me. 

I appreciate that many are in dire straits and I do feel for them, especially if they were hard workers and now in trouble due to no fault of their own.


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## thedaras

Yes.I agree with you..but I really don't mean those who have lost their jobs( that must be incredibly difficult .I mean those who still have a job,(with reduced income).


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## micmclo

I don't want to gloat either.

My pay wasn't cut though I work damn harder as staff were laid off.

But even with the income levies, my rent went down 200 euro a month so realy, just comparing levies and rent, I'm nearly better off.
I was paying market rate and still pay market rate

Better off in a reccesion you say 

If you're renting somewhere a few years and haven't managed to get a discount then look into it, could be huge savings. Rents have collapsed!

I don't know very much on NAMA or national debt. Or the upcoming budget
I do understand money in my pocket every month so I can't say the recession has affected me that much.


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## thedaras

I wonder is it the "Herd " mentality?


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## micmclo

edited out, the OP want just personal experiences and I've done that

Not going off topic


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## z107

I'm probably doing a bit better since the recession. Working harder too though. I'm spending in anticipation of banking Armageddon.

People who haven't lost their jobs might not feel too much of an effect...yet. However, they'll only notice cut backs when they need them. For example, PRSI dental care.

The real problems will start after the budget, getting steadily worse for the next few years. It would be interesting to see if this thread is updated in 6 months.

Remember, we are coming down from a very high level, where people were borrowing and spending like crazy.


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## Protocol

My pay has been cut twice.

Also, due to the income levy and the doubled Health levy, my taxes/deductions have increased.

So my take-home pay is down, maybe 400 pm.

Due to the recession, the ECB has cut interest rates to 1%, so my mortgage interest rate is now 1.5%, and my mortgage interest is down from about 500 pm to under 200 pm.


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## starlite68

the view must be nice from all those ivory towers folks!


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## Latrade

On the pure financial side, even with a pay cut I've been much better off these last few years. Combination of low mortgage rates, reduced prices and naturally we're actually buying less. So maybe from that view it's all rosy.

Downside though: much more work for less pay and less rewarding work too. Being told I'm lucky to have a job by peers when I worked bleedin hard to get my job there was no luck about it. Employers who feel that continually hanging the sword of Damocles over employee’s heads of threatening job losses is the best motivational technique ever invented. News for employers: it works for about 6 months, after that you have to actually learn how to be a good manager to maintain motivation. 

Lack of foresight or long term thinking in employers where they only consider how to squeeze more money out of people rather than considering that losing clients because our ability to assist and service (the stuff they've already paid for) is far more detrimental. employers not realising that the new hard sell technique has meant a massive loss of trust from our clients. And so all round difficult, miserable and depressing working conditions and largely because of a worrying lack of business savvy among employers.

So the financials are good, the psychologicals aint.


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## thedaras

starlite68 said:


> the view must be nice from all those ivory towers folks!


What do you mean? People who still have their jobs and are doing Ok,.are in Irovy towers?


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## Ceist Beag

We're probably doing the opposite of most people. We're getting an extension on the house and thereby wiping out all our savings. On the plus side we don't have a mortgage and I still have my job so we're not too affected by things at the minute. The extension is probably a fair bit cheaper now than say 3 years ago, plus the timelines and quality of builder is better I feel. So as long as I stay working I think (touch wood) we should be ok. As I outlined in another thread tho, my biggest fear is the IMF coming here and further damaging this country for everyone living here, but that's for the other thread!


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## truthseeker

Latrade said:


> Downside though: much more work for less pay and less rewarding work too. Being told I'm lucky to have a job by peers when I worked bleedin hard to get my job there was no luck about it. Employers who feel that continually hanging the sword of Damocles over employee’s heads of threatening job losses is the best motivational technique ever invented. News for employers: it works for about 6 months, after that you have to actually learn how to be a good manager to maintain motivation.
> 
> Lack of foresight or long term thinking in employers where they only consider how to squeeze more money out of people rather than considering that losing clients because our ability to assist and service (the stuff they've already paid for) is far more detrimental. employers not realising that the new hard sell technique has meant a massive loss of trust from our clients. And so all round difficult, miserable and depressing working conditions and largely because of a worrying lack of business savvy among employers.


 

Exactly the same story where I work. I can see a mass exodus of good people if there is ever a turn around in the economy.

My househld income is down to 33% of pre recession days (OH not working, Ive taken paycuts) - but no personal debt bar mortgage which was my own mortgage before I met OH so easily manageable on my income alone now.

Still saving, but not as much, and putting more consideration into large spends - do we really 'need' to go on an expensive holiday - or could we manage with a bit of daytripping around Ireland - that type of thing.

Also some small luxuries have fallen by the wayside as just not justifiable - things like occasional sports massage, less of the hairdressers, less likely to just fork out for expensive theatre tickets. And nights out now usually mean one of us driving to cut down on taxi costs.


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## MandaC

Am lucky in so far as I have had no drop in income, apart from the increased levy, etc and my mortgage has dropped by €300 per month as it is a tracker, so it is at its lowest point.   Where I need a kick in the backside is that I have spent that €300 on, well I dont know what.

Have decided to take €400 per month out of my salary and pretend I never had it, so that should give me savings of €5k per year.  

Not cutting down on personal luxuries as such, the main reason why I work is that I have a nice lifestyle. I do not go mad buying clothes, cosmetics, but what I buy can be expensive. (eg, last week work boots €200, dress €200)  Not as many nights out, though etc, taxis too expensive, more likely now to have a nice dinner in and a few bottles of wine.

Worry I have is that job is not secure and I personally think there is only a couple of years left in it.  But will cross that bridge when I come to it.


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## fizzelina

RMCF said:


> I'm glad to say, and this isn't meant as a gloat, but things haven't really changed for me.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I'm in the same boat, still in my job, no pay cuts although I do work twice as hard. But I have the same salary while everything else drops in price so I feel the benefits of cheaper living costs. We can afford our mortgage, our bills and still have a luxury holiday. So to be honest I'm better off now than I ever was. I should add that during the "boom" years I didn't borrow money except my car loan (since paid off) and had no credit card debt so that has meant that these days the mortgage is my only loan. So am I lucky? Or was I just sensible and didn't get carried away (never bought something I could not afford to pay for) and that has meant I'm in a good position now of being able to save instead of paying back numerous personal loans / credit card debt like many posters.


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## lightswitch

Not personally impacted yet but am in the private sector so never know when it might happen.  (no slur intended there to PS workers, I wouldn't have taken a PS job during the good times so can't complain about your job security now

Not getting any enjoyment out of the recession though, too many people in a really bad place and the country has little to show for the good times.


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## liaconn

I have taken a straightforward pay cut and another pay cut in the form of a pension levy, so my income is down considerably. I have cut down seriously on nights out, get my hair cut and coloured bytrainees as it is half the price and am constantly on the look out for bargains in the supermarket. I think twice before buying things now and am hanging onto my ten year old car, my microwave with the door that is hard to get open, stuff like that, that I would have replaced a couple of years ago. I also didn't have a holiday this year or last year. 
To be honest, I'm amazed that so many people on here aren't feeling the pinch. I can't believe you're representative of the population still in work.


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## bullbars

Not enough doom and gloom in here!
Was made redundant, no job prospects so had to emigrate, still no job prospects so stuck here and have no hopes of getting home anytime soon.

The only 'plus' is I didnt buy property/debt free and have no dependants.


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## Ciaraella

i'm pretty lucky too, have taken pay cuts but i have a tracker mortagage so the savings on that have made up for the pay cut. Both myself and my husband are working so we're very lucky. Cars are both over then years old but are running fine and are paid for. 
Gas and ESB prices are down as we switched both to bord gais, all talk of recession has changed my attitiude when shopping so now i'm more likely to look out for bargains, shop in lidl and local butchers and greengrocers. 
Clothes are more likely to come from penneys and dunnes these days which doesn't bother me. Overall we're very lucky and i'm well aware of how good we have it!
The house is in negative equity but it's our home that we bought three years ago for a decent price as it's a real fixer-upper and we intend to live in it for many years so that doesn't play on my mind.


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## starlite68

thedaras said:


> What do you mean? People who still have their jobs and are doing Ok,.are in Irovy towers?


 depends what base you are omming from! dont you think.


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## Caveat

No pay rise for the last three years so in public sector speak - three successive pay cuts I suppose 

Being a bit more careful with money (shopping etc), saving more but refusing to cut back on a holiday and small luxuries (CDs, beer/wine etc) - if this means living stingily for a while so be it.

Have never been extravagant with vehicle choice, going out, clothes buying etc so no change there.

Mortgage repayments down which is good.


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## thedaras

starlite68 said:


> view must be nice from the ivory tower folks
> 
> 
> 
> depends what base you are omming from! dont you think.
Click to expand...


Would you expand that? This thread was about how the recession has affected you personally..not including those who have lost their jobs,so I have no idea what you are referring too.


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## Bill Struth

Caveat said:


> No pay rise for the last three years so in public sector speak - three successive pay cuts I suppose
> 
> .


 
Be nice you.


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## Sunny

I can't have a pint anymore without someone bringing up the latest news on Irish government bond yields and credit default swap spreads.


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## TarfHead

Have not had salary reduced. Have had the same levies as everyone.

What has hit me, and this is something I had not previously realised how ingrained it had bceome, is the disappearance of the ..
- end of year cash bonus
- end of bank share dividends
- falling below the level at which PRSI threshold kicks in

The combination of these kicking in around the same time left me without what had become the principal means of financing Christmas. In response, we haven't really cut back on the end of year spend, just the financing of it had to be changed, which affects day to day spend for the other times of the year.

We're not in the habit of going out that much, so cutting back on that wasn't an option. We have cut back on holiday spend. I realised a while back that I haven't been out of the country for nearly 2 years. Which isn't a hardship - I'd take a week in Donegal over 2 weeks in some Mediterranean tourist kip any day  ! 

I'm still in a permanent job. My wife went from a 2-year contact to a 6-month one, without much of an interruption.
The kids have all they need, and some of what they don't need 
The LTV on the house is still comfortably in our favour.

During the good years, we spent what we had, but only if we had it. We weren't seduced by easy credit. Thinking of all we did and spent in 2007/2008 I'm glad we did it then and still have stuff to show for it, and no debt (apart from mortgage).


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## Ceist Beag

Sunny said:


> I can't have a pint anymore without someone bringing up the latest news on Irish government bond yields and credit default swap spreads.



 It's the new hot topic Sunny ... now that Cape Verde investment opportunities, invest in gold, or how is your apt in Bulgaria doing topics aren't cool any more!


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## grahamo

I work harder for less money. I had feck all during the celtic tiger and I've still got feck all! It just seems so much tougher because worker's morale is so low!
Younger people have simply never had to go through tough times so the present times are hard to handle.
I stayed here working a crappy job during the 80's thinking my efforts would help get this country on its feet while all my friends went off to the UK, Holland etc to work on building sites. Back then there was always a feeling that things would get better. It was great having everyone back from the 90's on but the same friends are now heading off to Oz and other far off places.
I'm starting to think that this time I should join them!


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## Mpsox

On the negative side, I've taken a pay cut and also had loss of income from additional levies etc. Like everyone else, I've also had to deal with the increase in stealth taxes which are often forgotten about. Chances of payrises are nil. My employers have let go about 10% of the workforce worldwide including Ireland, and that fear is always in the back of my mind whereas perhaps previously, I wouldn't have thought about it. 

On the more positive side, we are paying sales related bonuse this year and given I was involved in 2 large deals, I know I'll get a cut which is nice as it was not expected. I have a tracker, and the recession and people going shopping in NI has driven down prices from their Tiger high, which is good. In addition, there is far less traffic on the road, which is good as I've a long commute.

Overall, it's perhaps reminded me of the value of prudence


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## truthseeker

Actually I didnt think of negative equity when I posted in this thread earlier.

Its not affecting me as in I dont 'need' to sell - but it does mean that the dream of a home with a garden is on hold for a while.


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## annR

Not been affected a lot beyond the levies etc which have affected everyone with a job - however workplace did implement a sort of shadowy cutback regime which saw them do everything in their power (audits, messing with exchange rates etc) to not pay sales commissions which previously would have been no problem, did hit me one or two quarters . . .to be honest the shock and loss of morale that they would be so underhanded was as bad as losing the money  - I've been here many years and never saw anything like it.

Otherwise although I'm dreading what cutbacks are in store I'm glad at the same time that all the craziness of the boom years has stopped.  It was completely out of control. So in a way there is a sense of relief too.


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## TarfHead

annR said:


> . .to be honest the shock and loss of morale that they would be so underhanded was as bad as losing the money - I've been here many years and never saw anything like it..


 
+1

Different organisation (probably ) but they're implementing changes here that they previously wouldn't have considered. I would previously has dismissed a book like The Shock Doctrine as being far-fetched. Around here, I'm no longer so sure .

Never waste a good crisis  !


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## Firefly

TarfHead said:


> +1
> 
> Different organisation (probably ) but they're implementing changes here that they previously wouldn't have considered. I would previously has dismissed a book like The Shock Doctrine as being far-fetched. Around here, I'm no longer so sure .
> 
> Never waste a good crisis  !



So bad, I think you're developing a twitch


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## Grizzly

Neither of us smoke and we drink very little but like our holidays. No mortgage so no real effect. Where I am concerned is the high cost of health insurance, general insurance, car insurance and the increasing cost of utility bills.
In the past 18 months all of our white goods gave up the ghost and had to be replaced. In fairness we got 15 years out of most of them. So hoping that we get another 15 out of the new ones.
Thankfully all our children are in employment and getting by but I am holding on to my savings just in case.


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## Birroc

I took a 10% paycut. My brother and sister laid off and still unemployed. Other sister has a good job but bought a house in 2007 so in serious negative equity. Brother-in-law just emigrated to Canada 2 months ago. All in all, rough time for the family but we are all healthy.


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## becky

Public sector worker with a reduced net income.  Always lived within my means so less nights out, less clothes/shoes/makeup and I bring in lunches (yesterdays dinner), cook from scratch. 

Wasn't one for for sun holidays but use to do a good few city breaks - went to Kilkee this year.

Was offered voluntary redundancy this week.  Package of €85K now, lump sum of €30K in 20 years time and a pension of €12K when I reach 60.

Won't be accepting it like a lot of my colleagues so waiting to hear what next.


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## thedaras

Good to have the choice though...


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## becky

thedaras said:


> Good to have the choice though...



No, when I'm hacked off about something at work I'll be I should haven taken the 80 grand.

I'm pre 95 so no SW cushion to fall back as I have a feeling that a 40 yr old public servant with 20 years experience isn't very employable.


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## micmclo

becky said:


> I'm pre 95 so no SW cushion to fall back as I have a feeling that a 40 yr old public servant with 20 years experience isn't very employable.



It's a big package, I'd take it for sure but everyone is different.

Why wouldn't you be employable? There are jobs out there, over one and a half million people head to work every day

Or you can always take a year and go to college and live on the savings if you wanted

Nice to have the choice anyway


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## becky

Most private sector employers (I would be barred for 7 years from working in the public sector) would assume I'm inflexible and someone who has worked in a bubble all my working life.

I decided years ago I liked working in the public service.  It was never about the money for me, as most of my college friends (bar a few who are victims of the the downturn) were/still are on much more money then I am.


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## Leper

I see Becky that if you take some Exit package you will be barred from a job anywhere in the Public Service for 7 years. I presume you work in the HSE - this sounds like some kind of discrimination to me. 

Now (let's say) you worked in Private Industry and (let's say) you worked as a Private Investigator in some Security firm and you are taking an Exit deal. It is likely that you would be prevented in working in the same job-type for about 2 years max.

Even with 85K yours is not a good deal. Look at it this way, if there is ever a change in the economy you would be precluded from applying for any job in the Public Sector. Eventhough I am self employed, I need a fairly vibrant Public Service with money to spend.

The SMEs learned this last year e.g they had no problem with the PS hitting a one day strike, but when they went up north to shop the SMEs swore that this should never be let happen again.


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## Sunny

Becky, not having a go but would you really be entitled to a 12k pension at 60 after just 20 years work? I really wouldn't worry about private sector employers thinking you were somehow damaged from working in the public service. Can't see any employer thinking that way and if they did, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway.


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## Ancutza

Sorry to rain on your parade Sunny but not only would I (as a self-employed person) not hire becky but I wouldn't even bother my barney to interview her.

The reasons?  Today, Friday, I'm away with one of the lads who works for me.  There's no chance we'll see our families before Sunday night 10pm and we'll be at work again at 8am Monday morning.  Since Friday last week we've clocked-up 2500kms in the car and this morning I was woken by one of my other employees at 7am (we're only 4 in the company) asking me for stock sheets from customers we visited yesterday so she can get orders prepared and out to the courier for Saturday morning delivery (who obviously has a similar lifestyle to us) and today I'll be visiting shops 'til 10pm (we sell into the retail industry and 10pm is when the shops in the Malls close).  

We're a small tight team ranging in age from 27 to 48.  We all appreciate that what has to be done has to be done or we don't eat.  Tuesday next week is a day off when the 2 lads in the company will be going Pike fishing (the ladies can do as they wish although they have been known to pick up a rod too!).

Can you see any place in our business for someone who for 20 years clocked-on at 9am 'til 5pm Mon-Fri and switched their phones off for an hour at lunchtime??????????


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## Sunny

That is one of the most stupid posts I have read in a long time and not even worth commenting on.


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## truthseeker

sunny said:


> that is one of the most stupid posts i have read in a long time and not even worth commenting on.


 
+1.


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## Birroc

Sunny said:


> That is one of the most stupid posts I have read in a long time and not even worth commenting on.


 
Why?


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## Sunny

Birroc said:


> Why?



Because he knows nothing about the person except they work in the public sector and so they are not good enough to employ. As logical as saying I am not hiring you because you are a woman.


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## truthseeker

Birroc said:


> Why?


 
Because the poster has made assumptions that Becky or any other ex PS worker is 





> ..someone who for 20 years clocked-on at 9am 'til 5pm Mon-Fri and switched their phones off for an hour at lunchtime


 based purely on the fact that she worked in the PS.


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## thedaras

Say becky gets 80k lump sum, and 12k pension at 60 and another later lump sum of 30k ( all paid for by taxes )and then 3/4 years later gets the same job back in the HSE, exactly what good has that done for the taxpayer?

It makes perfect sense that having received this amount of money/deal, that they should not go back into the PS for a period of time.

Regarding the issue of employers not taking on PS workers, I do think in fairness that becky has a point..Ps workers do have a bad reputation,rightly or wrongly,and I think most private sector employers would be weary of taking them on.Becky has said that herself.
I also think that this is very unfair as there are some great people there,but "a few bad apples etc,which is why I think that those who are the hard dedicated workers in the PS get a very raw deal..


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## Sunny

This is ridiculous. So there are no bad apples on the private sector? I have hired some wasters in my time! Employing anyone is a risk. By the way I work in the private sector.


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## thedaras

You are missing the point,which is the whole of the PS has a bad reputation, this is not the case in the private sector!
You can also get rid of the "wasters",whereas the PS cant.So its unlikely that a "waster" would have managed to hold down a job in the private sector.

Dont tell me that you cant hear the collective "groan " when someone in a group mentions they work for the PS.
I said earlier that I think this is very unfair..


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## ccbkd

would it be fair to say that a majority of people who use this forum are professionals (not involved in Construction industry..Architects Engineers etc..) its no real surprise then you haven't been too badly effected then..I suspect that anyone working in a big law firm/accountancy/valuers etc may have benefited from the Governments 2.3 billion fund for services to NAMA etc.. bank employees are being paid albeit less through government bail-out funds, and alot of developers have access to similar type funding to pay their staff...the rest of you may be involved with multi-national corporation whose link with countries finance is vastly less significant than domestic industry (profits sent back to mothership etc...)so AAM may not be the best place to gauge the mood of the nation..although i am sure its an exercise in self assurance to tell other that you're coping just fine...I don't think recessions are ever balanced fairly across society and its unfortunate that those worst effected are people who for what ever reason may not have had the opportunity to become a professional.


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## RMCF

I work in the private sector in the UK, my wife is a public sector worker in RoI, so we have collectively been affected a bit so far.

Although I have not been affected myself, I do think that as a family we will be hit over the next 4 or 5 yrs with budget hits in Ireland. And hopefully my own job will be ok.


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## PaddyW

We stopped opening on Saturdays, due to it not being busy enough to warrant it, so I'm down that much in my wages. Other than that, I've become a bit more prudent with my money, not as prepared to splash it all out stupidly as I may have been prone to. Other than that, life is pretty much the same I guess.


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## fizzelina

ccbkd said:


> so AAM may not be the best place to gauge the mood of the nation..although i am sure its an exercise in self assurance to tell other that you're coping just fine....


 
Of course it's not the best place and none of us think it is, it's a particular group of people not a statistical sample.
And posting our situation on this thread is not an exercise in self assurance, it's just sharing our experience. It feels like you're being critical? But the theads asks the effects of recession on us and people responded.


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## Sunny

ccbkd said:


> would it be fair to say that a majority of people who use this forum are professionals (not involved in Construction industry..Architects Engineers etc..) its no real surprise then you haven't been too badly effected then..I suspect that anyone working in a big law firm/accountancy/valuers etc may have benefited from the Governments 2.3 billion fund for services to NAMA etc.. bank employees are being paid albeit less through government bail-out funds, and alot of developers have access to similar type funding to pay their staff...the rest of you may be involved with multi-national corporation whose link with countries finance is vastly less significant than domestic industry (profits sent back to mothership etc...)so AAM may not be the best place to gauge the mood of the nation..although i am sure its an exercise in self assurance to tell other that you're coping just fine...I don't think recessions are ever balanced fairly across society and its unfortunate that those worst effected are people who for what ever reason may not have had the opportunity to become a professional.


I very much doubt the majority of people are professionals. I am certainly not. Also everyone has the chance to get a profession.


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## liaconn

sunny said:


> that is one of the most stupid posts i have read in a long time and not even worth commenting on.


 
+1.


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## becky

thedaras said:


> Say becky gets 80k lump sum, and 12k pension at 60 and another later lump sum of 30k ( all paid for by taxes )and then 3/4 years later gets the same job back in the HSE, exactly what good has that done for the taxpayer?


 
Anyone who takes it is prohibited for 7 years from employment in the wider public servcie/sector. It also applies in the case of re-engagement on a contract for service.

Ministerial approval is still required even after that, so that suggests to me only people with specific skills/qualifcations will be allowed back.

I don't have a problem with the public sector being off limits for employment if you got this package, it's just another factor to take into account.

Sunny - yes if I leave now I'll get 12K penison at 60.  Pre 2004 workers have a min retirement age of 60 and a max of 65.

By the way I was at work today at 8am.  I have a work mobile and it's on all the time.  It's not often I am contacted after hours, but I did have to come into work 3 weeks ago at 9.30pm to sort something out.


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## Firefly

Ancutza said:


> Sorry to rain on your parade Sunny but not only would I (as a self-employed person) not hire becky but I wouldn't even bother my barney to interview her.
> 
> The reasons? Today, Friday, I'm away with one of the lads who works for me. There's no chance we'll see our families before Sunday night 10pm and we'll be at work again at 8am Monday morning. Since Friday last week we've clocked-up 2500kms in the car and this morning I was woken by one of my other employees at 7am (we're only 4 in the company) asking me for stock sheets from customers we visited yesterday so she can get orders prepared and out to the courier for Saturday morning delivery (who obviously has a similar lifestyle to us) and today I'll be visiting shops 'til 10pm (we sell into the retail industry and 10pm is when the shops in the Malls close).
> 
> 
> We're a small tight team ranging in age from 27 to 48. We all appreciate that what has to be done has to be done or we don't eat. Tuesday next week is a day off when the 2 lads in the company will be going Pike fishing (the ladies can do as they wish although they have been known to pick up a rod too!).
> 
> Can you see any place in our business for someone who for 20 years clocked-on at 9am 'til 5pm Mon-Fri and switched their phones off for an hour at lunchtime??????????


 
This post is daft. You're making sweeping generalisations against PS workers. The type of work you are invloved in IMO is the exception rather than the norm in the Private Sector. Just bacause someone works in the PS and has a pretty standard working week (say 9-5) doesn't mean that they wouldn't be able to adapt for your working conditions if they had to put bread on the table.


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## Firefly

becky said:


> Public sector worker with a reduced net income. Always lived within my means so less nights out, less clothes/shoes/makeup and I bring in lunches (yesterdays dinner), cook from scratch.
> 
> Wasn't one for for sun holidays but use to do a good few city breaks - went to Kilkee this year.
> 
> Was offered voluntary redundancy this week. Package of €85K now, lump sum of €30K in 20 years time and a pension of €12K when I reach 60.
> 
> Won't be accepting it like a lot of my colleagues so waiting to hear what next.


 
Hi Becky,

I'm a bit surprised that your pension would only be 12k a year - would that also include the state pension? What would be your pension if you stayed on? Also, the 85k sounds nice, but you wouldn't be long going through it in 20 years!


----------



## becky

12K is based on my 20 years of service and my current salary. As I'm pre 95 I have at this point no entitlement to a state pension as my employer was to pay me my pension. 

If I continue to work until 60, my pension should be €24K, lump sum €110 or so, based on the current rules.


----------



## Ancutza

> That is one of the most stupid posts I have read in a long time and not even worth commenting on.


But you took the time to comment on it anyway so it must have hit a nerve somewhere if not your funny bone!

It's interesting to note that the 2 individuals who agree with you are both public sector workers if I'm not mistaken.

Last August (2009) I lost my job as Production Director of a company employing 120 people. They lost their jobs too. The three people who work for me came with me when I decided to go it on my own albeit in a completely different industry. We got 1 months wages each after 8 -10 years service. It would have been nice to have the opportunity to turn down the sort of package offered to Becky but that's the real world. Although disappointed with what happened to us we faced facts and got on with it. We knew it was on the cards and made plans accordingly. We continue to work (VERY) hard unsociable hours all over the shop and pay our taxes so that the PS can choose to baulk at change and spit their soother out of the pram when faced with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.


----------



## Leper

Ancutza, if you inserted the words "non nationals" instead of Public Service in your posts I feel you would be targetted as one of the greatest racists on this forum. It appears to me (self employed) that you are quite a bitter person and for some reason or other thinks people in the Public Service owe you a debt of gratitude and people in the Private Sector should admire your stance. Well, for the record, I don't.


----------



## gianni

Ancutza said:


> But you took the time to comment on it anyway so it must have hit a nerve somewhere if not your funny bone!
> 
> It's interesting to note that the 2 individuals who agree with you are both public sector workers if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> Last August (2009) I lost my job as Production Director of a company employing 120 people. They lost their jobs too. The three people who work for me came with me when I decided to go it on my own albeit in a completely different industry. We got 1 months wages each after 8 -10 years service. It would have been nice to have the opportunity to turn down the sort of package offered to Becky but that's the real world. Although disappointed with what happened to us we faced facts and got on with it. We knew it was on the cards and made plans accordingly. We continue to work (VERY) hard unsociable hours all over the shop and pay our taxes so that the PS can choose to baulk at change and spit their soother out of the pram when faced with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.



Wow, my hero...


----------



## Ancutza

Thanks Gianni.  PM me your address and I'll send you an autographed cheesey photo of me in my super-hero suit. 

Leper I can't go casting the same unfounded aspersions around about non-nationals since my missus and, indeed, my 2 kids are non-nationals.  Wouldn't be politic at all at all.  Too busy to be bitter.  Anyway to be bitter is a waste of nervous energy which could be better employed elsewhere (in grabbing the new paradigm by the short-and-curlies for instance).


----------



## Deiseblue

Ancutza said:


> Thanks Gianni.  PM me your address and I'll send you an autographed cheesey photo of me in my super-hero suit.
> 
> Leper I can't go casting the same unfounded aspersions around about non-nationals since my missus and, indeed, my 2 kids are non-nationals.  Wouldn't be politic at all at all.  Too busy to be bitter.  Anyway to be bitter is a waste of nervous energy which could be better employed elsewhere (in grabbing the new paradigm by the short-and-curlies for instance).



" the same unfounded aspersions "


----------



## Ancutza

Whoops!  Caught with my tongue in my cheek again!


----------



## sunrock

I wish Becky well but who is going to employ a woman at 60?
Not being ageist, but that is the reality with thousands unemployed.


----------



## Sunny

sunrock said:


> I wish Becky well but who is going to employ a woman at 60?
> Not being ageist, but that is the reality with thousands unemployed.



I don't think she is 60. She is talking about redundancy, not retirement.


----------



## becky

sunrock said:


> I wish Becky well but who is going to employ a woman at 60?
> Not being ageist, but that is the reality with thousands unemployed.



I'm 40. 

I'd get the €80 odd K as a severance package if I go now.  At 60, my min retirement age I'd get €12K based on my contributions to a defined benefit scheme.

Sorry for going off topic on this thread.


----------



## z107

> I'd get the €80 odd K as a severance package if I go now. At 60, my min retirement age I'd get €12K based on my contributions to a defined benefit scheme.
> 
> Sorry for going off topic on this thread.


You'll probably get a lot less once the IMF/EU take full control.
I suppose it depends on what wages and kind of job you have at the moment.


----------



## micmclo

becky said:


> I'm 40.
> 
> I'd get the €80 odd K as a severance package if I go now.  At 60, my min retirement age I'd get €12K based on my contributions to a defined benefit scheme.
> .



Take it and go to college to do whatever you want 

The first offer is the best.

If you decline this you might be compulsory redundant in a few years and it may be statutory redundancy. Who knows what may happen in Ireland in the next few years.


----------



## Kiddo

Thankfully no jobs losses or pay cuts. The only debt we have is our mortgage and we kept the repayments the same as pre rate cuts so hopefully have knocked a few years off the term. We can afford to live on one salary should it come to it...but we bought with that in mind. We have also focused on reducing our outgoings and concentrated on saving as much as we can ...just in case.


----------



## Deiseblue

micmclo said:


> Take it and go to college to do whatever you want
> 
> The first offer is the best.
> 
> If you decline this you might be compulsory redundant in a few years and it may be statutory redundancy. Who knows what may happen in Ireland in the next few years.



It's debatable as to whether or not this offer can be improved on.

It appears however that the Unions will refer same to a third party for arbitration - presumably the LRC.


----------



## dmos87

I've been affected in lots of ways but I've also smartened up - and I thank the recession for that. I cleared all my debt by working hard and pushing every last penny. I saved once that was cleared, not taking my job for granted and continued to work my part-time job, even though I no longer "needed" to. I shopped smartly and reduced my outgoings significantly. I am now being made redundant in the coming weeks and I'm finding it hard to secure interviews despite getting off to a good start. 

But I'm thankful that the recession made me look ahead and get prepared. That seems to be more than others have, particularly people my own age. Even though my full-time job is gone soon, I have economised so well that I can still live off my part-time job wage. Sure, I won't be in a position to afford luxuries but I can still stay debt free.


----------



## thedaras

Can i ask re becky, do the ps still get increments? I know there is a payfreeze but wonder if increments are still given?


----------



## truthseeker

Ancutza said:


> It's interesting to note that the 2 individuals who agree with you are both public sector workers if I'm not mistaken.


 
Not me - I work in the private sector.


----------



## liaconn

Ancutza said:


> But you took the time to comment on it anyway so it must have hit a nerve somewhere if not your funny bone!
> 
> It's interesting to note that the 2 individuals who agree with you are both public sector workers if I'm not mistaken. .


 
It's *because* I'm a public sector working that I know you're talking rubbish about how the majority of us operate.


----------



## Purple

I’ve taken a 10% pay cut (along with everyone else here) which isn’t too bad but then again I hadn’t got a pay increase in 4 years (so I’m back to 2004 pay levels now) as the external costs inflation from the boom was undermining our international competitiveness and destroying our profitability. On a personal level we live well within our means, my wife’s job is almost recession proof and mine is 100% export focused so I don’t see disaster looming any time soon.


----------



## Deiseblue

thedaras said:


> Can i ask re becky, do the ps still get increments? I know there is a payfreeze but wonder if increments are still given?



Increments are still paid as contracted.


----------



## Firefly

becky said:


> 12K is based on my 20 years of service and my current salary. As I'm pre 95 I have at this point no entitlement to a state pension as my employer was to pay me my pension.
> 
> If I continue to work until 60, my pension should be €24K, lump sum €110 or so, based on the current rules.


 
That makes more sense. If it were me, I'd probably stay working and retire at 60


----------



## thedaras

Deiseblue said:


> Increments are still paid as contracted.



WOW!! so even though the PS have taken on a pay freeze ( as have the private sector )they still get an increment of 3% per year?

That is quite unbelievable!!
While most people have taken pay cuts including the PS,and most have not had any pay increases, the PS still get a yearly increase?

This couldn't be correct.can anyone clarify that the PS are getting extra 3% each year ?


----------



## Deiseblue

thedaras said:


> WOW!! so even though the PS have taken on a pay freeze ( as have the private sector )they still get an increment of 3% per year?
> 
> That is quite unbelievable!!
> While most people have taken pay cuts including the PS,and most have not had any pay increases, the PS still get a yearly increase?
> 
> This couldn't be correct.can anyone clarify that the PS are getting extra 3% each year ?



I can confirm that if you are contractually entitled to an increment then PS employees still receive same.

Where you are getting the 3% figure from I have no idea , perhaps you have more knowledge of the PS incremental system than I do ?

I should also point out that many multinationals and financial institutions and indeed major Irish companies employ incremental structures.


----------



## thedaras

So the title of this thread is how has the recession affected you...so in reality deflation is at -6% and if the ps get and annual increment of 3% that means an effective increase of 7%?,even if its a half % the ps are still getting an increase..
What happened to the pay "freeze"?
Back to the title of thread, how can it have affected those who are getting pay increased every year?
Anyone know how much the increments are?
As far as I am aware increments are not being paid in the private sector ,in other words a pay freeze is exactly that ,a pay freeze,If they are being paid,it is few and far between.
Who are the ones that are paying it?


----------



## Caveat

Deiseblue said:


> I should also point out that many multinationals and financial institutions and indeed major Irish companies employ incremental structures.


 
*Many ? *

Really? which ones?


----------



## orka

Most public service pay scales can be found on the internet - civil service on the Dept of Finance website, garda, nurse, teacher on the various union websites. Increments generally average more than 3% but are not paid ad infinitum - usually for the first 7-10 years for each grade, then maybe a couple more increments after 3 and 6 years. Teachers have the longest scale - still getting increments after 25 years (is a 25-year teacher really better than a 20-year teacher?)

Older scales are often available too and can make interesting (/depressing) reading. I posted about increments in another thread about how I don't think the impact on public service employees is as bad as they like to make out. But I would be interested if some posters in the public sector would tell us their 2006 and 2010 gross and net if they would like us to see how bad things are. This was my post from another thread. 




orka said:


> I had a look at some current and past pay scales to see how gross and net income of various public sector workers have changed since 2006 and I don’t think things are as bad as many make it out to be (bearing in mind I can only look at the payscales available – so civil service, garda, nurses, teachers – I accept there are other ‘public service’ out there who may not have seen the same level of pay rises).





orka said:


> Example 1:
> A HEO in the civil service at point 3 on the scale in 2006 earned 48,570 (34,314 net); by 2010, they would be on point 7 of the scale earning 54,329 (would have been 57,923 before paycut in Dec 2009) which is 35,353 net of taxes and levies. So their net income has actually increased (by 3%)!
> Example 2
> Married Garda and nurse – both getting no increments from 2006 to 2010. 2006 income €83,079 (net €64,049); 2010 income €86,505 (no increments, just change in scale values) which is €61,473 net of taxes and levies (a 4% drop in net income)


----------



## thedaras

I totally give up!! This is absolute madness...
I hope Ollie has his cheque book with him..

To be perfectly honest, I actually thought that the PS were having the same bad time as the everyone else,but my god this has really opened my eyes..
Only for deiseblue,I would still be in the dark about it!!
There is no way then that the recession could possibly have affected the PS as much as it has affected everyone else...


----------



## orka

Deiseblue said:


> I should also point out that many multinationals and financial institutions and indeed major Irish companies employ incremental structures.


If they can afford it, good for them!  But in years when they can't afford it, they won't pay it.  I used to work for a large company with an increment structure and when we had a couple of bad years, increments were suspended - and we just got on with it - unions huffed and puffed a bit but finally accepted that the money genuinely wasn't there.


----------



## Deiseblue

thedaras said:


> So the title of this thread is how has the recession affected you...so in reality deflation is at -6% and if the ps get and annual increment of 3% that means an effective increase of 7%?,even if its a half % the ps are still getting an increase..
> What happened to the pay "freeze"?
> Back to the title of thread, how can it have affected those who are getting pay increased every year?
> Anyone know how much the increments are?
> As far as I am aware increments are not being paid in the private sector ,in other words a pay freeze is exactly that ,a pay freeze,If they are being paid,it is few and far between.
> Who are the ones that are paying it?


 
As I say I can only confirm that increments are paid as contracted in the PS.
No more than yourself I do not know what percentages are involved either in terms of incremental payments or the percentage of employees who receive same.
All the major banks have incremental structures as do the major Insurance companies and the multinationals and of course all the semi states.
I would contend that most large companies have pay scales based on service.


----------



## Deiseblue

thedaras said:


> I totally give up!! This is absolute madness...
> I hope Ollie has his cheque book with him..
> 
> To be perfectly honest, I actually thought that the PS were having the same bad time as the everyone else,but my god this has really opened my eyes..
> Only for deiseblue,I would still be in the dark about it!!
> There is no way then that the recession could possibly have affected the PS as much as it has affected everyone else...


 
No need to thank me , anyone could readily access this information on google.

One must bear in mind that the PS have had two paycuts imposed on them in their entirety whereas the increments only apply to a percentage that has yet to be quantified in this thread and of course deflation applies across the economy


----------



## z107

> To be perfectly honest, I actually thought that the PS were having the same bad time as the everyone else,but my god this has really opened my eyes..
> Only for deiseblue,I would still be in the dark about it!!
> There is no way then that the recession could possibly have affected the PS as much as it has affected everyone else...


We'll have to wait until the IMF/EU has full control before the Public sector gets effected. The government won't go near it because they're spineless.

On the positive side, it's now only a matter of weeks before intervention. Lets just hope that the government doesn't do too much more damage in the meantime.


----------



## orka

Deiseblue said:


> One must bear in mind that the PS have had two paycuts imposed on them in their entirety whereas the increments only apply to a percentage that has yet to be quantified in this thread


That's a nice soundbite, often repeated in defense of public sector salaries future untouchability but what does it actually mean in practical terms to a public sector employee?  One of my examples above showed the impact on a married nurse and garda who got NO increments between 2006 and 2010 - net income is down 3% after paycuts and levies. Taking a CO in the civil service at the top of their scale - gross in 2006 was 34,964 (net 28,605) - gross in 2010 after the paycut was 37,341 (again repeating - no increment - this is because the scale has changed) - net in 2010 is 27,894 - a 2.5% reduction compared to 2006. OK, no paycut is nice but in the context of an insolvent employer, a 2.5% net cut in a deflationary environment is not worth squealing about.
Again, would love to hear real examples of pay sector 2006 and 2010 gross and net so we can see how bad things really are...


----------



## Caveat

Deiseblue said:


> All the major banks have incremental structures as do the major Insurance companies


 
Which represent how much of the workforce?



> and the multinationals


 
Source?



> I would contend that most large companies have pay scales based on service.


 
And I would contend that they don't - but you made the claim, so, source?


----------



## Purple

Deiseblue said:


> All the major banks have incremental structures as do the major Insurance companies and the multinationals and of course all the semi states.


All the major banks are state owned.


----------



## TarfHead

Purple said:


> All the major banks are state owned.


 
.. and, AFAIK, have had salaries frozen (i.e. no increment) since 2008.

This could have the same 'contractual basis' as suggested for the PS, but when your employer is broke ..

** some may have had increments and/or bonuses paid, they are the exception (similar to the senior civil servants who successfully lobbied the Minister for a u-turn).


----------



## gianni

TarfHead said:


> .. and, AFAIK, have had salaries frozen (i.e. no increment) since 2008.


 
Not the case in AIB... (the first google I tried)


----------



## Deiseblue

Nor in the case of Bank of Ireland which is still a privately owned company quoted on the ISEQ where the Government are minority shareholders.


----------



## pixiebean22

In fairness I was made redundant and when I found a new job after a few months I had to take a €6,000 pay cut.  Now, however, I'm back to what I was earning before I was made redundant and things are pretty good.  In fact I went clothes shopping last week for the first time in nearly a year, that felt pretty good.


----------



## Deiseblue

Caveat said:


> Which represent how much of the workforce?
> 
> 
> 
> Source?
> 
> 
> 
> And I would contend that they don't - but you made the claim, so, source?


 
It's simply my view.

I know for a fact that the Banks and Insurance companies employ incremental structures,

The same applies to the semi states.

So we are talking about a considerable proportion of the workforce outside the Public Sector who use comparable incremental policies.

In terms of the multinationals and major Irish companies I can only depend on anecdotal info gleaned from employees and union colleagues and friends who work for same and my own experience having worked in multiple jobs across the private sector that most have pay scales related to years of service and of course to performance.


----------



## Purple

Deiseblue said:


> Nor in the case of Bank of Ireland which is still a privately owned company quoted on the ISEQ where the Government are minority shareholders.


 It is as long as the government lets it. Nobody could reasonably suggest that it is not state controlled.


----------



## TarfHead

gianni said:


> Not the case in AIB... (the first google I tried)


 
Not an increment (where your salary increases so long as you have a pulse ).



Deiseblue said:


> Nor in the case of Bank of Ireland which is still a privately owned company quoted on the ISEQ where the Government are minority shareholders.


 
Not so - I am am *sure* of my basis on this one


----------



## Protocol

Dunnes Stores have increments.


----------



## Protocol

Note that plenty of public servants are at the top of their scale, and so do not get increments.


----------



## Deiseblue

TarfHead said:


> .. and, AFAIK, have had salaries frozen (i.e. no increment) since 2008.
> 
> This could have the same 'contractual basis' as suggested for the PS, but when your employer is broke ..
> 
> ** some may have had increments and/or bonuses paid, they are the exception (similar to the senior civil servants who successfully lobbied the Minister for a u-turn).


 
Well hardly since the Bank of Ireland paid the first tranche of 3.5% pay increase under the National wage agreement towards 2016 in Feb. 2009 and AIB paid same in Oct. 2009.

All employees on union negotiated non pay for performance contracts receive incremental payments if applcable.


----------



## Deiseblue

Protocol said:


> Dunnes Stores have increments.


 
As do Shaws , Heatons , Roches stores , Tescos , Superquinns and Penneys.

It seems likely that huge areas outside the PS implement incremental structures.


----------



## Caveat

More to the point though, are they all still getting these increments?


----------



## orka

And can their employers afford them? If they can, good for them. But that is irrelevant to the issue that the public sector employer is insolvent and can't afford the continuing high level of pay. 

Maybe this thread should be retitled to 'tell us your 2006 gross and net pay and how the recession has affected you'. Seriously - any public sector employees care to share this info beyond non-specific 'but I've had two paycuts' general moanings? I don't think I've seen one sympathetic case on AAM of a public sector employee hard hit by the recession.


----------



## Deiseblue

Caveat said:


> More to the point though, are they all still getting these increments?


 

 You tell me -is there any proof that they are not ?


----------



## orka

What difference does it make if they are or not?  If they are, it's because their employer can afford it.


----------



## Caveat

Deiseblue said:


> You tell me -is there any proof that they are not ?


 
Not the way it works  - you made the claim.

Should I start making claims about the PS and simply leave it up to you to disprove them rather than me provide evidence?

Anyway:



orka said:


> What difference does it make if they are or not? If they are, it's because their employer can afford it.


 
What he said.


----------



## Latrade

orka said:


> What difference does it make if they are or not? If they are, it's because their employer can afford it.


 
+1.

There are, as suggested many employers that are still paying incriments, however they can afford these. However, there aren't many of these that didn't reduce headcount in the last few years and also the incriments are at the contractual minimum whereas in the boom the would have been in excess of the minimum.

However, as many have said, the employer is in a position to pay the incriments, if they weren't, they wouldn't.


----------



## Complainer

orka said:


> I don't think I've seen one sympathetic case on AAM of a public sector employee hard hit by the recession.


So we need sob-stories of overspending and borrowed investments before the impacts are taken seriously?

For the record, I had increments in salary for every of year of my 25+ years in the private sector, across a range of multi-nationals and indigineous (sp?) industries, included the bad years of the 80's.


----------



## orka

Complainer said:


> So we need sob-stories of overspending and borrowed investments before the impacts are taken seriously?


Apologies if that's what it looks like I am asking for - this is the exact opposite of what I want to see - borrowing levels and overspending are irrelevant to what I am trying to discuss. Public sector employees seem to imply that they have had it tough because they have had two pay cuts, pension contributions etc. - but I don't think things are that bad when you compare say, 2006 net pay levels with 2010 ones. Increments and pay scale increases have been generous over the past few years - so from what I can see net pay levels are, at worst, back to 2006 levels - maybe a couple of percent lower for those who didn't get an increment in that time. A far cry from the 'I've taken 13% pay cuts' moans we often see/hear about. Tell us the progression over the past few years before you look for sympathy.



Complainer said:


> For the record, I had increments in salary for every of year of my 25+ years in the private sector, across a range of multi-nationals and indigineous (sp?) industries, included the bad years of the 80's.


I'm happy for you. I bought a nice sandwich for my lunch today - it was very tasty.


----------



## Deiseblue

Caveat said:


> Not the way it works - you made the claim.
> 
> Should I start making claims about the PS and simply leave it up to you to disprove them rather than me provide evidence?
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> 
> 
> What he said.


 
All the retailers I mentioned employ incremental scales , I have seen nothing in the media to suggest that they have stopped doing so , I have heard none of the Unions stating that increments are no longer being paid - if such was the case I'm sure the Unions would have made it public - would'nt you ? 

As I've stated the banks and semi states operate incremental salaries though in the case of the former it really shoots down the argument that only those who can afford to , do so.

The government have accepted that reform allied to a policy of voluntary redundancies and a 4 year pay freeze is the best policy to extract the required savings in the PS rather than pay cuts , I am acutely aware that people have huge problems with that course of action but it is the agreement between employers and employees currently on the table and at least delivers industrial stability which stability could be disastrously impacted by further pay cuts - let's not forget that FG and labour have also stated that they will honour the CP agreement if elected.

Encouragingly both Dara Calleary and Leo Varadkar stated on drivetime that PS pay cuts were not on the agenda although Leo said a ceiling of euro 200,000 will be imposed by FG if in power.

I know that people are of the opinion that the IMF if they come in will slash Public Sector pay straightaway but that really is not their remit , sure they will tell whatever Government is in power that savings must be made but that does not neccessarily mean PS pay is impacted as with the unions being so strong we may see the aforementioned PS reform being pursued with more alacrity than that shown at present but who knows what the coming months will unveil ?


----------



## orka

Deiseblue said:


> Encouragingly both Dara Calleary and Leo Varadkar stated on drivetime that PS pay cuts were not on the agenda ...


Maybe encouragingly for PS workers - but depressingly for those of us who harbour hopes that this country has some hope of getting its costs under control so we can control our own destiny. 


Deiseblue said:


> ...although Leo said a ceiling of euro 200,000 will be imposed by FG if in power.


Way too high a cap to be of any use.  Only Brian C, maybe Mary C and a few other high level ministers would be affected by this within government; no civil servant has a salary greater than 200K (although, hope springing eternal, this would be better if it was a full salary and benefits cap including notional pension contributions).  That only leave hospital consultants (and maybe some other professionals and/or semi-state executives?) - and I can't see them taking a paycut lying down - plus the better, younger and future ones will just leave the country.


----------



## DonDub

Deiseblue said:


> It's simply my view.
> 
> I know for a fact that the Banks and Insurance companies employ incremental structures,
> 
> The same applies to the semi states.
> 
> So we are talking about a considerable proportion of the workforce outside the Public Sector who use comparable incremental policies.
> 
> In terms of the multinationals and major Irish companies I can only depend on anecdotal info gleaned from employees and union colleagues and friends who work for same and my own experience having worked in multiple jobs across the private sector that most have pay scales related to years of service and of course to performance.



Let's get real - numbers in the PS have risen significantly over the last 2 years, for evidence - read data (provided by official bodies) in newspapers over recent months. Also, PS pay is not frozen, it is increasing - it won't be long before the pay cuts are reversed through payment of increments, for evidence, see tons of data from official bodies on the internet e.g. 
Grade VII in the Health Service

_[Recommended scale should read as follows:

€38,503 - €39,478 - €40,620 - €41,764 - €42,913 - €43,938 – €44,983 - €45,999 - €47,008 - €48,7461 - €50,4892 

- Grade VI in the Health Service

Recommended scale should read as follows:

€36,701 - €37,620 - €38,733 - €40,817 - €42,065 - €43,6151 - €45,1752 _[/I]

It is absolutely nuts that a bankrupt country is paying increments to hundreds of thousands of employees. No wonder the unions embraced the Croke Park deal - no forced redundancies, very generous (voluntary)redundancy payments, no sustained pay cuts due to ongoing pay increases through increments - and no real change to work practices.

Compare to the private sector - hundreds of thousands of forced redundancies, real pay cuts and freezes - including increments. And where private companies are paying increments, they have made a judgement call that they are generating enough profit to make these payments. By the way, most private sector companies have moved/are moving away from incremental scales -  replacing them with pay progression through performance related pay, with length of service no longer a factor.  

This truly is a sick country......


----------



## micmclo

Deiseblue said:


> and at least delivers industrial stability which stability could be disastrously impacted by further pay cuts -



Sounds like a threat to me.
So if pay is cut, industrial action will follow


----------



## mugga

My pay is cut, I got rid of my phone, rid of Sky, don't go out as much, cut back all round generally. No holiday this year. Nothing coming in the door but bills and a big mortgage. Feeling quite concerned about the coming budget,


----------



## Deiseblue

micmclo said:


> Sounds like a threat to me.
> So if pay is cut, industrial action will follow



 As sure as night follows day if pay is cut industrial action will follow.


----------



## orka

Deiseblue said:


> As sure as night follows day if pay is cut industrial action will follow.


Was there industrial action last time pay was cut?


----------



## Caveat

Deiseblue said:


> As sure as night follows day if pay is cut industrial action will follow.


 
And would you approve of such action?


----------



## Deiseblue

orka said:


> Was there industrial action last time pay was cut?



Yes.


----------



## Deiseblue

Caveat said:


> And would you approve of such action?



If the Croke Park agreement is not honoured and pay cuts are imposed and if subsequently industrial action is mandated by members then yes I would support such action.

Lots of ifs and buts before it comes to that however and I do expect the CP agreement to be honoured.

However as current events may tempt the Government to break the agreement I think that it behoves the unions to emphasise the consequences that will follow such a betrayal of faith .

How about you , do you approve of such industrial action ?


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## foxylady

thedaras said:


> I was thinking about this today,and to be honest I see no sign of it around my area.
> I don't know any one where I live that has lost their jobs,the cars are from 06 to 10, the extensions and garden work is on going.A lot of the houses would have been purchased at the height of the boom,so presumably the mortgages are big.
> 
> The local cafes still have the morning crew for coffee etc,the pubs are quiet Monday to Thursday,but I think that has more to do with the smoking ban.The shopping centre/hair dressers/beauticians is still busy,the kids are still doing their after school activity's,etc etc,.
> 
> I don't mean for those who have lost their jobs,but for those who still have jobs,how much has it affected you personally..
> 
> I suppose what Im saying is that their are still a lot of people who have jobs, OK their income has been reduced,but it doesn't seem to be badly affecting what they do,and by doing what they are doing ie; spending money,they are obviously keeping others in jobs.


 
I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who thought this. I was only discussing this with my OH last night and was saying about the amount of people I see in shopping centres and retail parks etc , who are spenidng money and not just browsing. I have a cousin who works in the Travel Industry and she was busier than ever over the summer with all hols being snapped up.


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## Ceist Beag

Deiseblue said:


> If the Croke Park agreement is not honoured and pay cuts are imposed and if subsequently industrial action is mandated by members then yes I would support such action.
> 
> Lots of ifs and buts before it comes to that however and I do expect the CP agreement to be honoured.
> 
> However as current events may tempt the Government to break the agreement I think that it behoves the unions to emphasise the consequences that will follow such a betrayal of faith .
> 
> How about you , do you approve of such industrial action ?



So Deiseblue, given the following three options where for arguments sake, the savings made for option 1 and 2 are the same, which option do you prefer?

Option 1: Scrap the CP agreement, keep the number of staff and reduce pay for all current PS staff to achieve the required savings
Option 2: Keep the CP agreement but reduce the number of staff to achieve the required savings
Option 3: Keep the CP agreement and the number of staff and look elsewhere for the required savings (and if so exactly where do you propose they find them?)


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## thedaras

Maybe we can conclude this by saying;
There have been SEVEN THOUSAND PS who have expressed an interest in taking the deal..
This would indicate that they can see that the writing is on the wall.
And finally that the IMF are coming and they know this,and therefore want to get out before it is no longer voluntary,but compulsory..


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## Deiseblue

Ceist Beag said:


> So Deiseblue, given the following three options where for arguments sake, the savings made for option 1 and 2 are the same, which option do you prefer?
> 
> Option 1: Scrap the CP agreement, keep the number of staff and reduce pay for all current PS staff to achieve the required savings
> Option 2: Keep the CP agreement but reduce the number of staff to achieve the required savings
> Option 3: Keep the CP agreement and the number of staff and look elsewhere for the required savings (and if so exactly where do you propose they find them?)



Simple really , The agreement allows for voluntary redundancies,incentivised early retirement as well as other reforms so option 2 as outlined by you does not offend any of the terms of the agreement.

Of course this option is only part of the agreement.

Is this the option you favour as well ?


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## Ceist Beag

It is actually (the option I favour). I have a lot of sympathy for those in the PS who are on the average (or less than average) wages and have been hit hard in the last budget. And it is obvious that the numbers employed in the PS are well above what they were say 8 years ago so I would imagine there is plenty of scope to reduce the numbers. That said I would also be in favour of pay cuts for those in the PS on high wages.


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## Deiseblue

thedaras said:


> Maybe we can conclude this by saying;
> There have been SEVEN THOUSAND PS who have expressed an interest in taking the deal..
> This would indicate that they can see that the writing is on the wall.
> And finally that the IMF are coming and they know this,and therefore want to get out before it is no longer voluntary,but compulsory..


 
7,000 expressions of interest do not 7,000 applications make.

Lots of people will initially express interest in order to quantify what their entitlements are under the deal but will not then proceed to the application process - basically they are hedging their bets.

And as for the IMF being a panacea for our difficulties , I just don't see it myself.


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## Caveat

Deiseblue said:


> How about you , do you approve of such industrial action ?


 
C'mon, do you really need to ask? 

Just in case, the answer is NO.


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## Deiseblue

Caveat said:


> And would you approve of such action?


 
Well you started the rhetorical questions


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## Caveat

Deiseblue said:


> Well you started the rhetorical questions



OK, so you have stated that if the union were mandated you would support them as a matter of principle - but do you, personally think it is fair or reasonable to instigate disruptive industrial action given the current circumstances - leaving aside for a moment the Croke park agreement?


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## Deiseblue

Caveat said:


> OK, so you have stated that if the union were mandated you would support them as a matter of principle - but do you, personally think it is fair or reasonable to instigate disruptive industrial action given the current circumstances - leaving aside for a moment the Croke park agreement?



My rationale was based on the CP agreement not being honoured.

You cannot leave the CP agreement out of the equation.

I'm not quite sure what you are asking me .


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## Caveat

Deiseblue said:


> My rationale was based on the CP agreement not being honoured.


 
I know - but is that all?



> You cannot leave the CP agreement out of the equation.


 
Just for a moment, forget it exists.



> I'm not quite sure what you are asking me.


 
If you approve of industrial action to be taken as a result of public sector pay or conditions being rationalised. 

Forget about the agreement, do you, personally think it is is righteous or morally correct in the current circumstances?


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## Ceist Beag

Caveat I think Deiseblue already answered that question in post #126. As it happens I agree with him/her - why always look at cutting pay across the board in the PS - why not look at the numbers instead and cut there. Not saying I agree with everything in the CP agreement (or even know everything in it to be honest) but for me the numbers in the PS is the first problem to address.


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## liaconn

orka said:


> . Public sector employees seem to imply that they have had it tough because they have had two pay cuts, pension contributions etc. - but I don't think things are that bad when you compare say, 2006 net pay levels with 2010 ones. Increments and pay scale increases have been generous over the past few years - so from what I can see net pay levels are, at worst, back to 2006 levels - maybe a couple of percent lower for those who didn't get an increment in that time. A far cry from the 'I've taken 13% pay cuts' moans we often see/hear about. Tell us the progression over the past few years before you look for sympathy..


 
Yes, and since 2006 a lot of public servants have bought houses on mortgages based on their existing salary and pay scale at the time..Those salaries were set in stone at the time,  as public service salaries usually were. So people who took on a mortgage on the basis of a secure salary and a guaranteed pay scale, and who assumed they were making an informed decision, are really struggling now.


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## DB74

liaconn said:


> Yes, and since 2006 a lot of public servants have bought houses on mortgages based on their existing salary and pay scale at the time..Those salaries were set in stone at the time, as public service salaries usually were. So people who took on a mortgage on the basis of a secure salary and a guaranteed pay scale, and who assumed they were making an informed decision, are really struggling now.


 
A lot of people's salaries have dropped to zero from the salary that they based their mortgage repayments on.


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## Purple

liaconn said:


> Yes, and since 2006 a lot of public servants have bought houses on mortgages based on their existing salary and pay scale at the time..Those salaries were set in stone at the time,  as public service salaries usually were. So people who took on a mortgage on the basis of a secure salary and a guaranteed pay scale, and who assumed they were making an informed decision, are really struggling now.



I think that's a very valid point, but I still think the Croke Park agreement will have to be broken.


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## liaconn

DB74 said:


> A lot of people's salaries have dropped to zero from the salary that they based their mortgage repayments on.


 
You're missing my point. Public Servants, and the banks lending them money, were lead to believe their salaries were fixed in stone, so the stress testing would have taken that into account.


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## DB74

liaconn said:


> You're missing my point. Public Servants, and the banks lending them money, were lead to believe their salaries were fixed in stone, so the stress testing would have taken that into account.


 
Why would anyone's salary be set in stone? Are you claiming that there is no way that a Public Servant can lose their job? Or become ill and unable to work?


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## liaconn

DB74 said:


> Why would anyone's salary be set in stone? Are you claiming that there is no way that a Public Servant can lose their job? Or become ill and unable to work?


 
Civil Servant's earned a guaranteed salary and, bar succumbing to a long term illness or committing some serious offence (embezzling or some such) that salary and your salary scale was, yes, very very very safe. Therefore, when civil servants sought mortgages, the amount they were given took that into account.  

And please don't start on a rant about Civil servants not being sacked for under performance. That's another debate and one I agree with entirely.


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## DB74

The last thing I want to do is turn this into a Public vs Private slanging match

I just don't see why an argument of "I thought I was guaranteed this salary so I got a mortgage on the back of it" should be any reason to renegotiate any agreement


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## liaconn

DB74 said:


> The last thing I want to do is turn this into a Public vs Private slanging match
> 
> I just don't see why an argument of "I thought I was guaranteed this salary so I got a mortgage on the back of it" should be any reason to renegotiate any agreement


 
I am trying (sigh) to explain the factors that were taken into account when civil servants were granted mortgages - and a secure, guaranteed salary was a strong and salient feature of civil service employment until recently. Therefore, when their mortgages were being stress tested, elements such as salary decreases did not form part of the process while the liklihood of a civil servant being fired would have been weighted quite lightly. Therefore, civil servants who bought houses they could afford on their current salary scale five years ago ,were not being irresponsible or short sighted, and many are now suffering *a lot.* Therefore, Orka's statement that he couldn't see that public servants had taken much of a hit is unfair and untrue.


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## orka

liaconn said:


> civil servants who bought houses they could afford on their current salary scale five years ago ,were not being irresponsible or short sighted, and many are now suffering *a lot.*


Do you have any examples liaconn? I've asked a few times (not to you but on a few threads) and there have been no examples given. Even without increments, the salary scales moved up a lot in the past five years before being moved back down in Jan 2010. eg a HEO at the top of the scale in 2005 was on 54,173 (38,151 net) - by Sept 2008 the gross (no increment, just scale changes) was up to 62,210 and then in Jan 2010, the gross moved back to 58,294 (net 36,993). So from the time of their responsible purchase in 2005, the net has reduced from 38,151 to 36,993 - a 3% drop - surely a drop that the stress-testing would have judged liveable-with?


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## Leper

Orks, it is easy to cherry pick figures and turn this into a Public V Private sector argument.  The real reality is that lower paid people in the Public Service have been screwed with a 17% reduction in take home pay over the past year.

We can argue figures to the Nth degree but the bottom line is that the people who caused this recession are still living in the lap of luxury.  Perhaps I am becoming bitter in my old age, but I want to see these people in prison.  

But, of course this will not happen; it didnt happen in any previous recession.


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## orka

Leper said:


> Orks, it is easy to cherry pick figures and turn this into a Public V Private sector argument. The real reality is that lower paid people in the Public Service have been screwed with a 17% reduction in take home pay over the past year.


 I have been looking for example because I don't want to cherrypick (or be accused of cherrypicking). If I wanted to cherry-pick, I would have picked someone still getting increments - they are doing fine (and keeping quiet about it) - picking someone at the top of a scale is as uncherrypicked as it gets...

Could you tell me what salary level has seen a 17% reduction in take-home pay in the past year?

The reality is that most public sector workers have seen big drops in the past year or so but it is just reversing the benchmarking which saw most get large increases in take-home pay in the preceding 3-4 years. Pay went unaffordably high and now it has to come back down to a level that the country can afford.

My overall view (hence request for examples to prove me wrong) is that, yes, some public sector workers are suffering but due to the same reasons as some others are suffering (poor choices, poor timing, overspending, overborrowing) - not because the public sector is being singled out for persecution.


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## liaconn

orka said:


> I have been looking for example because I don't want to cherrypick (or be accused of cherrypicking). If I wanted to cherry-pick, I would have picked someone still getting increments - they are doing fine (and keeping quiet about it) - picking someone at the top of a scale is as uncherrypicked as it gets...
> 
> Could you tell me what salary level has seen a 17% reduction in take-home pay in the past year?
> 
> The reality is that public sector workers have seen big drops in the past year or so but it is just reversing the benchmarking which saw most get large increases in take-home pay in the preceding 3-4 years. Pay went unaffordably high and now it has to come back down to a level that the country can afford.
> 
> My overall view (hence request for examples to prove me wrong) is that, yes, some public sector workers are suffering but due to the same reasons as some others are suffering (poor choices, poor timing, overspending, overborrowing) - not because the public sector is being singled out for persecution.


 
. I'm personally down a few hundred every month which makes a big difference re my mortgage repayments. And I only have a 2 bedroom apartment in Firhouse so I didn't exactly go mad. And there's people who have taken bigger drops than me. So I don't think your comments are fair, but I think this argument has been done over and over and over so lets leave it as we're obviously not going to agree. This thread has gone way off point.


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## Purple

Ok, lets try to get the thread back on topic. Can those who have taken cuts let us know to what year's level their pay has dropped. I have posted that my pay is now at 2004 levels.


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## csirl

Ditto - c.2004 levels.


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## DB74

Roughly 2003/2004 levels but it feels like 1993 because I had no kids back in 03/04!


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## orka

Net I am at 2005 levels.  I am down 32% on my 2009 net - I got a big salary increase at the end of 2007 but I knew it would only last if things went well so I never really considered the extra 'mine' and didn't change much in my lifestyle because of it so I can live with the drop (still miss it though...)


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## truthseeker

2003


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## liaconn

2006.


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## mf1

OK, had a look. That was a truly horrifying exercise! 

Checked turnover. Solicitor. Sole practitioner. Back to 2000 levels. 

mf


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## pixiebean22

I'm at the level I was at before I was made redundant in 2008.  Between now and then I've taken a €5,000 cut and another €2,000 cut on top of that, I have been back to my 2008 level since May of this year.  (Bear in mind I am only 23 so my starting salary back in 2008 may not have been as high as someone in the same position as me)


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## Firefly

Unchanged for the past 2 years.


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## Sunny

Actually doing better now than ever. Huge pension and don't have to worry about the stresses of work. Sorry to hear about all your difficulties. 

Cheers

M. Fingleton


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## fobs

Sunny said:


> Actually doing better now than ever. Huge pension and don't have to worry about the stresses of work. Sorry to hear about all your difficulties.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> M. Fingleton


 
lol. 

Have had no salary decrease (got 2% increase this year) so only down levies. However my husband is no longer working (health issues) so down one salary.


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## MandaC

Salary static for the past couple of years so no decline in base rate.  Changed industry in December 2008 and was lucky to get the same basic.   Where I am down is my bonus which were huge at he height of the boom.  We still got a bonus in 2010 though we did not get one in 2009.


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## Leper

Just looked at my wife's payslips over the past few years and took a mid year date in each.  She works in the Public Service in junior management.  Her take home pay now is less than she had in 2006 and a 0.75c per week more than in 2005. There have been no changes in deductions (just to keep matters straight) I calculated this is an 11% drop in take home pay.  

Also, I had a look at my own pay.  I am self employed and I pay myself a wage every week.  My wages are up, but business has always been good.  We made some decisions years ago regarding the business i.e maintain good service, good after sales, good customer relations without pandering and treat staff like humans.  Furthermore, we tended by-in-large to do business with those who do business with me. I think we did a few things right and when dealing with prospects I always held the belief "The market place looks different from where the Customer stands" (Feargal Quinn from his book many years ago;excellent and easy read for anybody dealing for profit).

I know I am digressing now but most on here would not remember the early 70s.  Now there was a recession (calling the period a resession was doing it a favour).  Women in the Public Service had to resign from employment on marriage, for them the kitchen sink beckoned.  Ireland was an emerging state and everybody was broke.  Few cars were on the road.  RTE television opened at 5.30pm and closed service at 11.30pm.  There was hardly a penny about.  That guy who wrote "Penny Apples" was a millionaire compared to the rest of us.  

And you think were are in a recession . . .


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## BOXtheFOX

Dropped about €60k on the stock market that I won't get back.  Could have...should have.....but didn't ......sums it up.


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## pixiebean22

We are in a recession relative to the way we have lived for the last while.  Yes, some people were reckless, some people weren't but this is a recession nonetheless, past difficulties doesn't make it any less so for the people living in it now.


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## Marietta

pixiebean22 said:


> We are in a recession relative to the way we have lived for the last while. Yes, some people were reckless, some people weren't but this is a recession nonetheless, past difficulties doesn't make it any less so for the people living in it now.


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## pixiebean22

Marietta said:


>



In response to Leper's post "And you think we are in a recession . . ."


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## gianni

Leper said:


> Just looked at my wife's payslips over the past few years and took a mid year date in each.  She works in the Public Service in junior management.  Her take home pay now is less than she had in 2006 and a 0.75c per week more than in 2005. *There have been no changes in deductions* (just to keep matters straight) . . .




Was she not subject to the Pension Levy ?
Not to mention the income levy ?


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## JP1234

Leper said:


> J   RTE television opened at 5.30pm and closed service at 11.30pm.  .



Now there's a an idea they could bring back!


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## thedaras

liaconn said:


> Yes, and since 2006 a lot of public servants have bought houses on mortgages based on their existing salary and pay scale at the time..Those salaries were set in stone at the time,  as public service salaries usually were. So people who took on a mortgage on the basis of a secure salary and a guaranteed pay scale, and who assumed they were making an informed decision, are really struggling now.



I hear what you are saying ,however,
who got those public servants to believe this?

Who got them to a place where they had salaries "set in stone"

Who got them to a position where they had a guaranteed pay scale and a secure salary?

This should never have happened..those who led them into this position and those who allowed it to happen,are at fault.
That would be the unions and the government...


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## Leper

Gianni, yes my figures reflect both levies.

Others, Yes I know we are in a recession and I am aware that many people are up to their necks in debt.  But, give me the life nowadays a,d not the miseries of the 50s 60s 70s 80s and some of the 90s.  

The government is taking us for granted also, seems like only a matter of time before the IMF come.  Just heard the news today and some 'renegade' FG politicians will vote with the government whether or which to pass the budget.

I wonder if our Taoiseach knows what he is doing!


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## becky

thedaras said:


> I hear what you are saying ,however,
> who got those public servants to believe this?
> 
> Who got them to a place where they had salaries "set in stone"
> 
> Who got them to a position where they had a guaranteed pay scale and a secure salary?
> 
> This should never have happened..those who led them into this position and those who allowed it to happen,are at fault.
> That would be the unions and the government...



Civil Servants and Public Servants never suffered a paycut, pay freezes and odd levy yes but net pay never went down.  People never thought it would happen just like what a lot of people thought about house prices, ie they would never go down.

That said the rates of pay were more realistic prior to benchmarking/social partnership.  You never hear the term 'lowly paid civil servant' or 'it could happen to a bishop' anymore.


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## thedaras

Looking like we wont have to worry about who will make things like increments /privilege days/time off for cashing cheques etc etc happen....

Its looking like it will be done on our behalf.


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