# Spiral stairs with attic conversion



## doll (7 Apr 2008)

Has anyone got an attic conversion with spiral stairs and if so did it cost much extra?


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## mercman (7 Apr 2008)

Yes I have done twice. Purchased a kit Spiral Staricase one eight years ago and one four years ago. The units I used were manufactured in Scandinavia They are a superb kit, come complete with handrails fixings etc. At both times I researched the price compared to having a spiral staircase made especially and they were far cheaper. As long as either you or your builder know what they are doing it is time consuming but worth the while.


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## Purple (7 Apr 2008)

I had one put in, it also came in a kit.
It was no more expensive and saved loads of room.


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## patd (22 Sep 2009)

mercman said:


> Yes I have done twice. Purchased a kit Spiral Staricase one eight years ago and one four years ago. The units I used were manufactured in Scandinavia They are a superb kit, come complete with handrails fixings etc. At both times I researched the price compared to having a spiral staircase made especially and they were far cheaper. As long as either you or your builder know what they are doing it is time consuming but worth the while.


 

Hi Mercman,

i know this is an old post but could you send me where you got the spiral stairs and a rough idea of the cost,

Thanks


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## mercman (22 Sep 2009)

patd, I got mine in Homevalue linked Builders Merchants. As far as I can remember the cost of each staircase was approx €2,500.


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## mercman (15 Feb 2010)

Richfort01 said:


> For that price (approx 2500) you could get a custom built spiral staircase fitted in your house



Maybe just maybe that is the price nowadays. What was their price during the Tiger days. I think you will find the price then, far exceeded the Spiral Stairs kit that I was referring to.


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## WaterSprite (15 Feb 2010)

Richfort - you should disclose if you have a connection with that company - 2 posts and 2 recommendations....


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## Complainer (15 Feb 2010)

Spiral staircases can be problematic for older people, young kids or anyone who is a little unsteady on their feet. A spiral stairs is not compliant with the Part M building regs TGD (section 1.14 (b) the rise and going of each step should be uniform, with the rise not greater than 175 mm and the going not less than 250 mm), which may make it difficult to insure or sell  the property.


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## NHG (16 Feb 2010)

Also remember it is not easy to get furniture up or down a spiral staircase so you would need to allow for other way's to get furniture up stairs.


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## mercman (16 Feb 2010)

The pluses in Spiral Stairs far out weigh the minuses. Where space is tight or a person prefers something different they are the business. The kit Spiral Staircases are perfect. Well priced and well designed and made in Denmark (AGAIK). Available in most Builders Providers and additional parts are available. Granted a small bit arkward when trying to get large pieces of furniture up them, but otherwise perfect. Have placed them in two properties with no hasstle.


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2010)

mercman said:


> otherwise perfect. Have placed them in two properties with no hasstle.


Have you informed the insurers? Have you managed to sell either of these properties?


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## mercman (16 Feb 2010)

Yes one sold with no problems. And sold to the MD of an Insurance Company. In the other property, Insurance company undertook the annual survey in November last and did not place any penalties or otherwise on the property.


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2010)

Seems strange that such a blatent breach of building regs would be ignored by such parties, particularly given the safety/egress issues arising.


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## mercman (16 Feb 2010)

So you are stating that Spiral Stairs are not allowed in buildings in this country. Funny how an Architect passed same in my properties. What professional opinion do you base your ideas ??


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## Bronte (16 Feb 2010)

I'm confused, why do insurance companies want to know about what type of staircase one has and if it complies with building regulations. 

What about older properties most of which would not comply with building regulations in relation to stairs nor anything else.


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## Bronte (16 Feb 2010)

mercman said:


> In the other property, Insurance company undertook the annual survey in November last .


 
What is this annual survey please?


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2010)

Bronte said:


> I'm confused, why do insurance companies want to know about what type of staircase one has and if it complies with building regulations.


Because this affects the ability of residents to get out of the building in case of emergency.


Bronte said:


> What about older properties most of which would not comply with building regulations in relation to stairs not anything else.


Indeed - that's why they ask you when the property was built, so they know what regs (if any) were in place during the build.



mercman said:


> So you are stating that Spiral Stairs are not allowed in buildings in this country. Funny how an Architect passed same in my properties. What professional opinion do you base your ideas ??


On the extract from the Part M TGD quoted above, stating that the going of each step must be uniform.


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## mercman (16 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> On the extract from the Part M TGD quoted above, stating that the going of each step must be uniform.



Sure that is the same in the case of any staircase whether it be a normal staircase or Spiral staircase.

The steps on the kit staircases are uniform as per working in line with the assemby instructions. There are quite a few developments that have spiral staircases in them and I have not heard that they have to be ripped out.

The survey by the Insurers in this case was in the case that the Insurance Company had been changed and they required to inspect the risk.


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## Towger (16 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> On the extract from the Part M TGD quoted above, stating that the going of each step* must* be uniform.


 


> A spiral stairs is not compliant with the Part M building regs TGD (section 1.14 (b) the rise and going of each step  be uniform, with the rise not greater than 175 mm and the going not less than 250 mm), which may make it difficult to insure or sell the property.


 
Please click on links for definitions.


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2010)

mercman said:


> Sure that is the same in the case of any staircase whether it be a normal staircase or Spiral staircase.


They are not uniform on a spiral staircase because the going is short at one side and long on the other side.


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## mercman (16 Feb 2010)

As already asked, what is the basis of your certainty. Is this a professional opinion or something you just read. Are all the professionals involved in Construction out of touch with the correct dos and donts ??


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2010)

mercman said:


> As already asked, what is the basis of your certainty.



As answered already, it is what is written in the Part M Building Regs.



mercman said:


> Are all the professionals involved in Construction out of touch with the correct dos and donts ??



Frequently yes, in relation to the Part M regs in particular - see [broken link removed]


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## mercman (16 Feb 2010)

Well if you are not a professional and are not qualified and are not in a position to pass judgement.

I accept that persons with dissabilities require different standards away from the mainstream. However the original post was not directed to any particular category. Therefore when you choose to make relevance to specifics you should clearly state same and refrain from making comments that general matters are problematic or hideous.


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## Bronte (16 Feb 2010)

mercman said:


> The survey by the Insurers in this case was in the case that the Insurance Company had been changed and they required to inspect the risk.


 
Never heard of this Mercman.  I've changed insurance company on a few occasions and they never came out to inspect it.  Was there a specific reason in your case?  I ask because I purchased a really old property in the past and had to give a detailed reply as to how I had it up to date re wiring etc (never mentioned anything about stairs but I repaired a very decrepid old stairs).

Complainer what do you mean that insurance companies ask you about the age of a building for building regulations.  Surely they ask you the age because they have a fair idea of the risk based on the age?  Otherwise they would ask you do you comply with building regulations which they do not on any form I've ever filled out.


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2010)

mercman said:


> I accept that persons with dissabilities require different standards away from the mainstream. However the original post was not directed to any particular category. Therefore when you choose to make relevance to specifics you should clearly state same and refrain from making comments that general matters are problematic or hideous.


You've just missed the whole point of the Part M building regs. The whole point of the Part M regs is to ensure that ALL new buildings built since the regs were enacted are accessible to people with disabilities. Part M regs apply to all new buildings, and it is not a case of 'different standards' or 'particular categories'. 

Given your lack of understanding of Part M, it would seem that you are not professionally qualified in this area either. People in glass houses .....


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## Bronte (17 Feb 2010)

So this only applies to NEW buildings which in the OP case is an attic conversion and the rules don't apply.

Interesting that these rules apply for stairs to be easy for people with disabilities.  Any of the new houses built during the celtic tiger I've visited had the worst stairs imaginable, you can't even bring up normal furniture.  These self same houses presumable have been checked by professionals and councils and have certificates to say they confirm with building regulations.


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## Complainer (17 Feb 2010)

Bronte said:


> So this only applies to NEW buildings which in the OP case is an attic conversion and the rules don't apply.


Nope - the regs apply to new builds and 'material alterations'.


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## holly (18 Feb 2010)

In our previous house we had a stair case up to our attic which in no way met regulations. Of course the attic didn’t meet regulations either *in terms of being considered a room*. When we sold the house, it was advertised as a 3 bedroom + attic storeroom, not as a 4 bedroom.  There were no legal or insurance issues for either ourselves or our purchasers.  Surely it only has to meet regulations if you are trying to make the attic a proper room? I know several neighbours who converted their attics and use them as a children’s playroom or office but accept that they are not ‘rooms’ as such IYKWIM?


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## onq (18 Feb 2010)

Holly, citing neighbours whose conversions sound like they may not be compliant doesn't really constitute a supporting argument, does it?
That's a "he was doing it too Miss" kind of argument - it probably didn't work when you were caught talking in school and it carries even less weight now.

If you use this space as a habitable room - living space or sleeping area - then you may be held grossly negligent if there is a fire and people are trapped in it and die.

Its that simple.
And that serious.

Work spaces may have even more onerous requirements, but some home offices may get a pass on those.
However being asleep at your desk from exhaustion happens too and is foreseeable, more's the point so I would include workspaces regardless.

Some guidelines from the DOEHLG - read both

Original:

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1657,en.pdf

Updated:

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,5093,en.doc

You owe it to your family to install all measures applying to Part B Fire Safety, especially if you're considering using it for kids bedrooms.
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf

And expecting ceiling joists to carry floor loads is an exercise in optimism at best.
As a minimum, they will tend to deflect and cause cracking in the ceilings below

There are other regulations requiring compliance of which Parts K and Part F are notable, but they're not the only ones.

Part K
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1651,en.pdf
Part F

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1647,en.pdf
(this is a current download, but its being or has been superseded and you should check with your local authority)


BTW, holly, these Home-Office neighbours of yours, are they tele-working from a base office somewhere or are they working from home with nowhere else to work from?
Because if its the latter they need a permission and they should be paying commercial rates on their business premises, whether its part of their home or not.
We work from a home office which has planning permission and on which we pay rates.
If they or you need advice please post to AAM.
Plenty of willing and competent building professionals here. 

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent persons should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
*My best advice is that you should retain a competent building professional to advise you on these matters.*


ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## holly (18 Feb 2010)

Onq, I'm asking the question, not trying to support any particular argument, sorry if that didn't come across. I'm simply curious because we did put in a full staircase up to our attic in the house we own now but we had the luxury of taking some space off one of the bedrooms to do that. Not everyone does.

As for the neighbours, I haven't asked these people what rates they pay, all I know is that they run their own business and use their attic as an office - this particular couple didn't put a stairs in at all, they use a stira as they didn't want the kids going up and playing with the computer. So technically is this still an attic with a floor and a couple of plugs?


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## onq (18 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> They are not uniform on a spiral staircase because the going is short at one side and long on the other side.



Tapered steps present a problem in terms of defining their rise and going, but the issue as I understand it isn't one of the rise and going being uniform all across the step of a tapers step - although I accept your point in principle.
As normally interpreted, the principle of uniform rise and going refers to all steps in a flight, and is designed to stop people tripping up when traversing the flight as a whole.
If you've ever gone down, or up a flight of stairs with even one wonky stair height you'll appreciate this regulation.
Its particularly nasty coming down a fire escape stairs at speed with people following you.
You risk tripping on the tread edge, after which everyone ends up in a heap - literally.

A spiral or helical stairs can actually be MORE uniform in terms of rise and going than a straight stairs with tapers stairs or kite winders at a turning point.
The spiral or helical stairs is usually composed of tread sections and central pole sections which are all exactly the same.
The straight flight going to kite winders by definition creates a huge change, but these are not yet banned.
However they should not be necessary in new builds and some bodies don't accept them.

Matters are discussed and links are given in this thread:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=131246
BTW "should" not "shall" is a material difference both in considering laws and regulations.

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent persons should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
*My best advice is that you should retain a competent building professional to advise you on these matters.*


As a

ONQ

[broken link removed]


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## onq (18 Feb 2010)

holly said:


> Onq, I'm asking the question, not trying to support any particular argument, sorry if that didn't come across. I'm simply curious because we did put in a full staircase up to our attic in the house we own now but we had the luxury of taking some space off one of the bedrooms to do that. Not everyone does.


Hi Holly,

Aha, I may have mistaken you on that, and I accept that you seem to have done the business.



> As for the neighbours, I haven't asked these people what rates they pay, all I know is that they run their own business and use their attic as an office - this particular couple didn't put a stairs in at all, they use a stira as they didn't want the kids going up and playing with the computer. So technically is this still an attic with a floor and a couple of plugs?



Nope, I wouldn't think so, but without going through a Section 5 Declaration process with the local authority to determine this one way or the other I couldn't be certain.

I wouldn't take too much comfort from a Section 5 either, since principles they establish can be overturned by a higher authority - An Bórd Pleanála of the High Court for example - but they are evidence of a prima fascia compliance in the eyes of a local authority.

As far as I can see, having gone down this road myself with a home office in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown, they need both a planning permission for an office use and they should be paying rates.

To properly establish this office I would be of the opinion that the building regulations should be complied with in full, and I'm not certain the Stire access complies - there are some really useful and generous Stire around now for well under a grand fitted, so I'm not certain.

But you can believe me when I say that there are a probably lot of non-compliant offices in the Dublin area.

And following a great post a while back by threebedsemi, I've taken a view that seomra's may also need these approvals - worse they may need a fire cert. Seomra's are not part of the house or an extension to the house, they are by nature detached habitable shed buildings.

The comment about Seomras being temporary buildings may be undermined when they are on site as an ongoing concern without a defined building programme or end date for their use and they support a habitable use.

Furthermore modern sustainable building principles are coming up with foundation strategies that are little more than poles or posts in the ground, the better to return the ground to its natural condition after use. This blurs the distinction between permanent buildings [one with foundations] and temporary buildings still further.

Offices used as part of the house or in an extension to the main house do not usually need afire cert, so long as they are being used by the people normally present in the house - there is no new or greater contravention. This could be viewed differently in different local authorities and where the area used to receive visitor  isn't on the ground floor.

Ohe other thing I'd be concerned over is the weight of the office furniture/file cabinets on the upper floors.
You are supposed to intersperse deeper flooring grade joists between the ceiling joists and raise them up 25mm or so to prevent their deflection "popping" the ceilings below.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent persons should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
My best advice is that you should retain a competent building professional to advise you on these matters.


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## Roundy# (17 Feb 2011)

Looking at buying a house at the moment - 30 year old bungalow. The upstairs is converted into 2 bedrooms, seperated by a landing area. The upstairs does not have planning and is served by a spiral staircase (600mm wide). Does a 600mm wide spiral staircase conform with building regs? The bedrooms have escape windows - one gable end window for one bedroom and the other has a velux window with adequate opening.

Should I walk from this one.........from my brief description would retention planning be possible??


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## sblandscapin (18 Feb 2011)

it is more time consuming to do but not much more expensive to buy but you will pay a bit extra for the labour as it will take longer


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