# Social Welfare changes in Budget 22



## Brendan Burgess (12 Oct 2021)

€5 increase for social welfare

Qualified kids : €2 

Pensions up €5 

Living alone Allowance by €3 

Parents' benefit increased from 5 weeks to 7 weeks


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## noproblem (12 Oct 2021)

Don't forget Santa is coming too for all the above, with double payments at Christmas. In most cases that's the equivalent of another €5 per week.


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## Duke of Marmalade (12 Oct 2021)

noproblem said:


> Don't forget Santa is coming too for all the above, with double payments at Christmas. In most cases that's the equivalent of another €5 per week.


The Xmas bonus is nothing new.


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## noproblem (12 Oct 2021)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> The Xmas bonus is nothing new.


But this years one will be.


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## Pinoy adventure (12 Oct 2021)

Qualified kids €2,is that across the board or younger than 12 or over 12 ?


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## Baby boomer (12 Oct 2021)

noproblem said:


> Don't forget Santa is coming too for all the above, with double payments at Christmas. In most cases that's the equivalent of another €5 per week.


Well, I did make this modest proposal last year.
How about a Christmas Bonus for taxpayers?
Unfortunately, it didn't catch on.


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## Purple (12 Oct 2021)

Baby boomer said:


> Well, I did make this modest proposal last year.
> How about a Christmas Bonus for taxpayers?
> Unfortunately, it didn't catch on.


Everyone pays tax.


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## Purple (12 Oct 2021)

Why not charge full PRSI on pensioners and increase the pension by a bit more? That helps the small minority who rely on their pension as their sole source on income while those on higher incomes continuing to contribute to the pension that they almost certainly didn't pay enough for while they were working.


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## Duke of Marmalade (12 Oct 2021)

noproblem said:


> But this years one will be.


Don't get you.  The Xmas bonus is already in existence.


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## Baby boomer (12 Oct 2021)

Purple said:


> Everyone pays tax.


But everyone doesn't get the Christmas Bonus.  And while, yes, in one sense, everyone pays some tax, there's a significant cohort for whom the "tax" that they pay actually comes from money they got from the State in the first place!  So their net contribution to government revenue is negative.  

But for most people who are positive net tax contributors, there's no Christmas Bonus.  But there should be.


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## mathepac (12 Oct 2021)

Fuel allowance up by €5 / week from midnight tonight.

Other increases effective from 01/01/2022?


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## Purple (13 Oct 2021)

Baby boomer said:


> But everyone doesn't get the Christmas Bonus.  And while, yes, in one sense, everyone pays some tax, there's a significant cohort for whom the "tax" that they pay actually comes from money they got from the State in the first place!  So their net contribution to government revenue is negative.
> 
> But for most people who are positive net tax contributors, there's no Christmas Bonus.  But there should be.


It costs the State about €7000 a year to put a child through school.
If you have 2 children the State is paying €14,000+. 
How many families are actually net contributors? It's really only the top 10%. A single person on welfare is less of a drain on the State's resources than a working family on an average income with 3 children. I don't get too hung up on who pays what amount of tax. I pay lots, more than 90% of people, but I get lots back and taxes are the price of civilisation, not an entitlement to a louder voice or an extra vote.


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## Sunny (13 Oct 2021)

Purple said:


> It costs the State about €7000 a year to put a child through school.
> If you have 2 children the State is paying €14,000+.
> How many families are actually net contributors? It's really only the top 10%. A single person on welfare is less of a drain on the State's resources than a working family on an average income with 3 children. I don't get too hung up on who pays what amount of tax. I pay lots, more than 90% of people, but I get lots back and taxes are the price of civilisation, not an entitlement to a louder voice or an extra vote.


The 14k spent on education is an investment by the State though. Having an educated workforce is essential for any economy. Its not like it is a zero return game for the State in the majority of cases.


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## Purple (13 Oct 2021)

Sunny said:


> The 14k spent on education is an investment by the State though. Having an educated workforce is essential for any economy. Its not like it is a zero return game for the State in the majority of cases.


I agree, I'm just pointing out that the so-called squeezed middle are nearly always net receipts from the State. In the last 10 years the proportion of their income they pay in tax has reduced by around 20% (6% for high earners). Yes, they are squeezed but it's not because of the taxes they pay. 
Oh, and paying someone social welfare isn't a zero sum game either.


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## Mrs Vimes (13 Oct 2021)

I think @Purple would appreciate Graham Norton's take on paying taxes:


> Norton said when looking at people “who are worth a billion” and who avail of tax avoidance schemes, “You think, ‘How can you be bothered?’”
> 
> He said they “would be just as rich if they paid the tax- and would be living in a much nicer country”.
> 
> ...


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## Sunny (13 Oct 2021)

Purple said:


> I agree, I'm just pointing out that the so-called squeezed middle are nearly always net receipts from the State. In the last 10 years the proportion of their income they pay in tax has reduced by around 20% (6% for high earners). Yes, they are squeezed but it's not because of the taxes they pay.
> Oh, and paying someone social welfare isn't a zero sum game either.



I know social welfare isn't a zero cost game but it is an extremely dangerous and costly policy lever if it is not managed correctly. Making statements about squeezed middle and high earners in Ireland is always dangerous considering we apply the higher tax band to someone earning less than 37k and we consider people earning 71k to be so wealthy that they should pay over 51% of any additional income.

I don't think anyone has a problem with paying taxes but I think people are getting increasingly frustrated at how taxes are getting spent. We are spending billions on things like social and affordable housing which is a completely failed policy no matter how they try to dress it up. Child benefit is not means tested. State pension is not means tested. Someone made unemployed after 30 years is treated the same as someone who never worked a day. We have young people who will never work no matter what job activation schemes there are out there. We have high inter generational welfare dependency levels.

Meanwhile we struggle to help carers. We struggle to help support families of cancer victims. We struggle to deal with food poverty in schools. We struggle to pay for mental health services. We struggle to do a lots of things that wouldn't cost a lot of money to really make a difference on.

I don't resent the €5 increase in social welfare rates or things like increased parental benefit and I know this will have a real impact for some people. I would prefer a bigger rise went to the those people though. I resent that we are spending millions on schemes that will give more money to a lot people who don't actually need it and won't make a difference to them.

Throwing billions at every problem every year makes no difference. None of those social welfare measures will solve a problem despite the cost so next year we will be back here discussing next years social welfare budget rise. And the year after. Same can be said for the income tax package. I can't remember a budget that was actually targeted at specific issues that made a difference rather than something for everyone...Probably when the Troika were here.


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## Purple (13 Oct 2021)

I agree with all of that @Sunny. 
I've always said that we ask the wrong questions in this country.

It's nuts that my children are eligible to receive Children's Allowance. 
It's  madness that they'd get a GP Medical Card if they were young enough.
It's crazy that my parents get free travel and a medical card, they already get a massive discount on their health insurance through community rating. It's crazy that they are getting an increase in their State Pensions when they wouldn't miss it if they got no State Pension.

We spend more than enough on health. The people who work in the healthcare sector choose to continue to waste lots of it. Why don't we question that instead of looking for even more money.
Houses are too expensive but until this budget all we did was stimulate demand. What was the point in that?

We have an extremely generous welfare system and supposedly a world class education system. Why do we have so many people living in welfare dependent households? Why are short term and long term welfare rates the same? (I think we are the only country in the EU with that system) Where's the social engineering element in our welfare system?


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## Deiseblue (13 Oct 2021)

Meanwhile in Casa Deise as well as both our defined benefit occupational pensions I am to receive an additional €5 weekly to my contributory OAP and my wife if spared will receive the full contributory pension in a couple of years .
Whilst an extra few bob is always handy it is  not required and is unwarranted in view of the the income currenty coming into the house .
Means testing must be an option but is any Government prepared to take on the grey vote which segment they continuously pander to ?
Still on the bright side it's another €20 monthly to expend in my continuing battle with Paddy Power.


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## noproblem (13 Oct 2021)

Deiseblue said:


> Meanwhile in Casa Deise as well as both our defined benefit occupational pensions I am to receive an additional €5 weekly to my contributory OAP and my wife if spared will receive the full contributory pension in a couple of years .
> Whilst an extra few bob is always handy it is  not required and is unwarranted in view of the the income currenty coming into the house .
> Means testing must be an option but is any Government prepared to take on the grey vote which segment they continuously pander to ?
> Still on the bright side it's another €20 monthly to expend in my continuing battle with Paddy Power.


Funny reading the above. You say you don't need more money coming into the house, yet you're going to Paddy the Powerful trying to make it even more . At least you're giving it back


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## Deiseblue (13 Oct 2021)

noproblem said:


> Funny reading the above. You say you don't need more money coming into the house, yet you're going to Paddy the Powerful trying to make it even more . At least you're giving it back


I enjoy a flutter on football particularly on League of Ireland football where the person who sets the odds for PP seems singularly unaware of the effect suspensions and injuries and new signings have on games !
Since the advent of Waterford FC 's new owner , manager and a raft of new signings the Blue's form has improved dramatically as indeed have my winnings 
I'm not one to turn down easy money from bookies and take particular joy from the fact that my winnings are based more on research and knowledge rather than luck.


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## noproblem (13 Oct 2021)

Deiseblue said:


> I enjoy a flutter on football particularly on League of Ireland football where the person who sets the odds for PP seems singularly unaware of the effect suspensions and injuries and new signings have on games !
> Since the advent of Waterford FC 's new owner , manager and a raft of new signings the Blue's form has improved dramatically as indeed have my winnings
> I'm not one to turn down easy money from bookies and take particular joy from the fact that my winnings are based more on research and knowledge rather than luck.


It was a tongue in cheek comment from me, having a laugh if truth be told.


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