# Inherited Farm but don't know how to farm



## CantFarm (12 Jun 2005)

My uncle left me the family farm. However I've never farmed a day in my life and wouldn't know one end of a sheep from the other. Any advice? I like the location of the farm and have no interest in developing the land.


----------



## Farmer2 (12 Jun 2005)

Learn like everyone else!!! Get your uncle to work with you and show you the ropes. You will soon catch on to the basics and find your way along from there. You can also do courses but dont know if that would interest you.


----------



## RainyDay (12 Jun 2005)

Employ a farm manager and make sure he makes money when the farm makes money.


----------



## Vanilla (13 Jun 2005)

Well at the risk of being obvious you only have four choices- sell it, lease it, get someone to manage it or run it yourself. The size of the farm will determine whether it would make it profitable to either have a manager or to run it yourself- depending on the type of agriculture involved. For eg it might be a small cattle farm- not enough to run a household, but if it were converted to say an organic farm it might be more profitable. As Farmer2 said- if this is something you are interested in you could do a course. But farming is not an easy occupation, so if you are interested in running it yourself be very sure before you give up the day job. Its all very well picturing a life in the country when the sun is shining, but when its cold and pouring rain and you have to get up in the middle of the night when a cow is calving and you're up to your knees in muck, its a different story!


----------



## ubiquitous (13 Jun 2005)

Rent it out or consider selling it. Don't consider farming yourself unless you are prepared to lose substantial sums of money or know what you are doing  - a number of entrepreneurs have gone to jail for (sometimes horrific) cruelty to animals because they thought farming was an easy way to make a quick buck but couldn't operate basic animal welfare measures when the money ran out. 

Certainly don't under any circumstances entertain the option of employing a farm manager to run the business for you. At best you will be left with zero or negative profit for yourself after the manager's wages are paid, more likely you will be ripped off up to the eyeballs if you have little or no comprehension of how the business works. Given that many farmers work in excess of 100 hours a week, you will also have serious problems with working-time legislation unless you take on a number of employees.



> Employ a farm manager and make sure he makes money when the farm makes money.


I thought it was illegal (not to mention morally dubious) to deny any employee their wages when a business fails to make a profit?


----------



## Vanilla (13 Jun 2005)

Ah now ubiquitous- not every farm manager is out to cheat the owner- but I agree its very hard to have a farm run by someone else if you dont know about the business yourself- and I'd imagine Rainyday was saying that after a basic salary that the farm manager should have a bonus scheme linked to profits- a pretty good idea. I forgot to mention earlier the possiblility of a farm partnership- a new one to me, but I think its becoming more popular- Teagasc have very good advisors, so a chat with them may help.


----------



## ubiquitous (13 Jun 2005)

The potential for ripoff is not confined to the farm manager - in fact the chief risks of ripoff would be in relation to livestock dealers (who are notorious as a breed for shortchanging the unwary), suppliers of feed, fertilisers and other inputs (where there is massive potential to overbill or undersupply deliveries) and the danger of theft of livestock, machinery, equipment or feedstuffs - the combined value of which will extend to several hundred thousand euro in most cases. Additionally if you make even basic, innocent mistakes on your subsidy claim forms (which themselves are tremendously complicated) the Dept of Agriculture will severely punish you, even to the extent of disallowing your entire subsisy entitlement - this latter factor alone could halve your turnover.



> imagine Rainyday was saying that after a basic salary that the farm manager should have a bonus scheme linked to profits- a pretty good idea.



How many farms in Ireland could support the payment of a basic €7.65 per hour for 80-100 hours per week to an employee AND a profit-related bonus?



> the possiblility of a farm partnership- a new one to me, but I think its becoming more popular


Most farm partnerships tend to be administration-sharing and tax-saving arrangements between fathers & sons or uncles & nephews in joint farming setups - usually when the older generation is phasing themselves towards retirement. In fact I don't know of any other.


----------



## Vanilla (13 Jun 2005)

Ubiquitous, reading your post might lead one to think farmers live in the wild west!  I 'd imagine theft of livestock thankfully is fairly rare nowadays- at least it is in my part of the world- perhaps its different in other parts of the country? Cattle dealers may be notorious for catching out the naive- but one would have to be very naive to be caught out more than once- after all its easy to find out what animals are making in ones area- just listen to the radio or read the farmers journal. And as for feed- well, if you dont know what you're supposed to be paying, shop around, or ask the neighbours what they're paying. In relation to other types of theft of machinery- this is more common near the border, and not so much in other parts of the country- small stuff, sure, but larger items- well, lock it up and insure it. Finally in relation to farm partnerships, I've seen these emerging between farm managers and owners and between neighbouring owners. I would however agree that only relatively few farms could support such arrangements  -and only a few could support a manager- and thats why I said it depended on the size of the farm.


----------



## ubiquitous (13 Jun 2005)

Hi Vanilla,

I don't know what experience you have of farming but unfortunately some of your assumptions appear to be quite naive. 

(1)For example stock and machinery theft is a widespread threat. Its a problem not at all confined to border areas - farmers organisations tend to blame (rightly or wrongly) a certain minority ethnic group for the occasional waves of machinery theft that occur up and down the country.

(2) As regards cattle dealers, variables such as the condition, breed or location of an animal can have more effect on the price offered for the animal than would be indicated by national/local mart or factory prices on a given day. One would need to have a thorough knowledge of market and animal husbandry issues to be able to keep up with some of these guys.

(3)Shopping around for the best supply price for feeds or fertiliser is not going to protect against the risk of overbilling or undersupplying deliveries.

The bottom line is that farming is a dying occupation, in that many thousands exit the industry every year with nobody to replace them. There are reasons for this - the high levels of capital investment needed, the lonely working conditions and long working hours and the risks of severe financial loss to the inexperienced, unwary or unlucky. Unfortunately for these reasons most newcomers to farming fail to establish themselves successfully and anyone considering a career move into farming needs to know exactly what they are doing - otherwise they are likely to get burned extremely badly.


----------



## Janet (13 Jun 2005)

Perhaps first I should explain that I'm a city girl through and through and not sure I'd ever hack it living in the country although I am fond of the idea of being self-sufficient and manage to grow (mostly with brother's help) some herbs and vegetables myself.  

That said I've a few questions for cantfarm with apologies to the more agricultually inclined among you for any seeming naivety.

Are you used to living in an urban or rural setting?

Have you ever wanted to farm?

What kind and size of farm is it?

Is there any other use you could put the land to?  Recreational/leisure for example.  Renting/leasing some of the land to other local farmers (or relatives?) while retaining some for your own use.

What do you work at now, do you like it, would you like to continue doing it?

Is it financially viable for you to hang on to the farm while deciding what to do or do you need to make a quick decision?  If you decide to go for it do you have the financial resources to support yourself if things don't work out?

What are your views on back-to-basics living?  Do you get caught up in programs like Tales from River Cottage or that one about Jimmy the pig farmer?  Books from either of those series, by the way, might be a useful starting point for easy reading if you are really considering a drastic lifestyle change.

Are there any other family around who might have an interest in the farm or more knowledge in how to run it?  Despite the fact that it was left to you if there are others they will probably be interested (to the point of feeling it's their right to know and even decide for you).


----------



## CantFarm (13 Jun 2005)

Wow - thanks for all the replies. There's a lot for me to think about.

To clarify, my uncle has died and so he can't show me the ropes. There are no other farmers left in the family.

The farm is 20 acres of fairly wet land, in Donegal. My uncle was ill for the past few years and the land has been idle. Previous to that he used to keep sheep and a few cattle. He wasn't making any money out of it of course.

There are a lot of rushes on the land - does this mean drainage is poor? He used to cut silage but that hasn't been done in six or seven years.

There is a nice house on the land (needs a bit of work but generally very comfortable) so there would be somewhere to live.

I'm from an urban background but I have spent a lot of time in the country. I love the country and I'm not afraid of hard work. I have no illusions that farming is easy or well paid work. But the land has been in the family for generations and I don't want to sell it. I have many happy memories of the place, as does my extended family.

I am in a position to take early retirement (I'm almost 50) and could  manage financially without being dependent on the farm income. I like the idea of organic farming and would be interested in doing courses. Are we talking about the organic centre in Leitrim? 

Thanks for the advice about Teagasc, I'll give them a ring.

Not too worried about rustlers at the minute but maybe in the future.  Some of the neighboring farmers have already approached me about renting but to be honest I don't want to do this as my uncle felt strongly about it himself when he was ill.

Thanks for advice so far, plus any more to come.


----------



## JohnDung (13 Jun 2005)

Be sure to get some advice about the capitals gain & inheritance tax situation.


----------



## Vanilla (14 Jun 2005)

If the farm is about 20 acres, I don't know if there's a living in it in conventional agriculture- ie Cattle, sheep, dairy etc. What kind of farming was your uncle in? In relation to organic farming, or niche areas such as unusual meats and so on, I'm afraid I have very little knowledge, but there are organic farming organisations out there- I'd imagine you would have to research this very thoroughly and do a course or courses before even thinking about getting into it as a fulltime occupation. AFAIK to become organic the land has to be organically farmed for a certain length of time-so there may even be a certain lenght of time before you could even qualify; I really don't know much about it. 
Ubiquitous, I make no claim to BE a farmer and have no wish to ever be one!However I think I can say with confidence that I have about as much experience of farming as it is possible to have without actually being one. That is to say I was born and reared on a farm, and with the exception of months away at college and a day job, lived on a farm for far too many years, and still help out, both practically and with the dreaded form filling.
Your experience of farming is obviously very different to mine- I've never heard of stock being stolen ( and with the department identity regs, can't see it starting), and as for machinery, well the average farmer here just wouldnt have the kind of large new and expensive machinery that would be targeted. This would be the preserve of contractors.  In relation to feed, and dealers, I'll accept what you say- i.e that there can be problems. 
Getting back to the poster- all I can say is that farming is not something that I would want to do- I think its a tough 24 hour, 7 day a week job, and unless you get into a niche, its impossible for a small farmer to make a living for a family. Of course, around here, what happens is that small farmers take on a day job ( and marry nurses and teachers!) because they have to. But there are good bits too. As Ubiquitous said, you really need to know what you're doing before you do anything rash. Is it possible for you to take a career break and try it out? But even before doing that, you should really take professional advice and think about doing a course.


----------



## ubiquitous (14 Jun 2005)

Hi Cantfarm,

As Vanilla says, a 20 acre farm will most definitely not earn you much of a living, but it does have the possibility of providing you with a nice lifestyle option once you have sufficient income from other sources to meet your living expenses and committments. 

Most if not all practicising farmers with less than 40-50 acres are part-timers as their farms would never be sufficiently economic to generate any income (after expenses) over and above pocket money. Still its a nice enjoyable lifestyle for those who like the outdoors.

Best first move is to talk to Teagasc about your options.


----------



## cushtie (14 Jun 2005)

as said above 20 acres will not provide you with a living but you indicated you will have an income that should keep you comfortable anyway. Why not rent out 10 or 15 acres of it to another farmer and farm the rest yourself as a hobby farm, just to get you started. if you get the hang of it you can increase your own holding as you wish.

Have you ever seen The River Cottage series on TV. About a lad who gives up city life in UK to live off a small holding. He makes it look incredibly attractive. (I know it's not like this as I grew up on a farm) If you are looking to retire a few acres an a few animals will definately fill up your time and yuo keep the land in the family


----------



## Allen (14 Jun 2005)

AFAIK to become a registered organic farm no pesticides or artificial fertilisers may have been used on the fields for a certain number of years. As your farm has been idle for a while this may make it quicker to become an organic farmer.


----------



## guzzler (14 Jun 2005)

With 20 acres no living available unless a very niche market. Having said that for me, give me anything but urban living (I'm getting there!)

Here is a good crowd for the organic.
Organic organisation

http://www.irishorganic.ie/
Office Address:

Main Street, Newtownforbes, Co. Longford
Tel: (+353) 043-42495
Fax: (+353) 043-42496
iofga@eircom.net


----------



## CantFarm (15 Jun 2005)

Thanks again, guys.

I think renting out part of the land is a good suggestion although my uncle was always wary of this even when he had retired and the farm was laying idle. I think he was worried about some kind of rights issue. Does anyone know anything about this? What is the standard practice on leasing land?


----------



## JohnDung (16 Jun 2005)

11 months?


----------



## CantFarm (16 Jun 2005)

Tell me more...


----------



## cloneen (16 Jun 2005)

Aren't there Forestry agencies that are looking for farms to plant, grow and maintain trees on your land and give you an annual income from this activity? Might be worth looking up. 

I think there's a company called FEL doing this in Ireland and also Coillte?


----------



## Sim One (16 Jun 2005)

Cant Farm 

The Department of Agriculture have a very useful publication called "Schemes and Services for farmers" which they bring out every year.  Ring up your local Department office and they will send one out to you.

It also available on their website www.agriculture.gov.ie


----------



## misemoll (16 Jun 2005)

To rent land, you can go to local auctioneer and let it as conacre (which means 11 months), this is renewed every year. 'Squatters rights' cannot be claimed if someone is actually paying rent for the land.
However, note that the rental market is very uncertain at the moment, e.g. does the land have entitlements? who owns these now?


----------



## JohnDung (16 Jun 2005)

Conacre is about 100 euro/acre for grazing/11 months where I live,so you wont exactly become rich.Be careful about forestry,once you go down that road,you cant come back (tree felling licence?) that easy & land loses its value & flexebility when you plant. I know this from family experience.Undoubately,the biggest value land has is because of its possible building potential.


----------



## deecide (20 Jun 2005)

I agree with the post above on Forestry. I think any land that is planted may then be under Forestry Law / Regulations ?? so stays in trees in future. Planting a steep or low lying part of the land away from the house may suit and you could investigate this asap as grants are available for planting and maintenance but this may change. If you decide to keep livestock on the farm and it has not been grazed in recent years, then the farm will probably need a lot of fencing and cleaning up to get it back in shape and animals will also have to be checked daily. Probably best to rent some or all of it out to a local farmer. Get an auctioneer to set the price ( not familiar with Donegal but think rental prices are fairly high ) and agree who is responsible for the fencing, water supply and clean up. Also agree how many months the land will be grazed to prevent the land being damaged during the wet winter months. If you're going to use the house as a holiday home / weekend retreat , then maybe the local farmer will keep an eye on it for you in your absence. As regards machinery etc get a local contractor to do any necessary work. If you decide to take the plunge fulltime , twenty acres sounds an ideal size to keep horses on . Don't know if you've any experience with horses, but have heard of a few farmers converting sheds into stables and taking hunters in for a weekly rate. Hope this helped and good luck


----------

