# Dublin Bus LEAP card - no ticket or receipt issued



## odyssey06 (8 Apr 2015)

I was overcharged on a Dublin Bus LEAP card journey. 

Who would be the best agency to complain to in relation to LEAP card and Dublin Bus? Specifically about the lack of a ticket\receipt being issued - the NCA?

Without a ticket being issued there and then, it's very hard to challenge whether you have been overcharged. It seems very suspicious to me that it's not even possible to request a ticket. I suspect there is systematic overcharging going on.

The LEAP card refund process for Dublin Bus involves a trip to the Dublin Bus office, which seems ridiculous. If you query what you have been charged by the driver, he can cancel it within 10 minutes of the transaction; however, it can be difficult to actually see what you have been charged on the machine.
I can't think of any other service whose charging is so non-transparent at point of sale.


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## dereko1969 (8 Apr 2015)

What did you state to the driver when asking for your ticket? How do you know you were over-charged? Have you checked the fare calculator on www.dublinbus.ie
Is your leap card registered? That will have a record of your transaction.
It's not suspicious it saves on waste. It is transparent, your fare will be deducted from your card and the cost will display on the driver's machine that is visible to you.
You can contact www.leapcard.ie who will forward your query to Dublin Bus. If you refer it to the NTA they will refer it to Dublin Bus.


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## STEINER (8 Apr 2015)

You checked your travel history online presumably and saw the charge.

Most LEAP users on my routes use monthly or 30 day  tickets, so no individual charges.

I'd say its a non-runner that the powers would want to issue tickets/receipts for chargeable individual LEAP journeys.

To deal with "systematic overcharging" or driver error overcharging, I say the issue could be clarified around actually seeing the charge on the machine.  I only recently got a LEAP, and have yet to use it .  When you say "difficult to see what you have being charged on the machine", is the size too small/not facing the customer enough/awkward/rush hour queue?  If the customer can see the charge clearly that would eliminate any overcharging.


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## odyssey06 (8 Apr 2015)

It's very difficult to see what was actually charged there and then - it flashes up for about 2 to 3 seconds on a very small display panel.

I know I was overcharged because I checked my LEAP card history and saw I was charged 2.05. When I put my boarding stop and the exiting stop (which I clearly stated to the driver) into the Dublin Bus fare calculator, it comes up as 1.50 for LEAP fare.

It's not transparent at all, it becomes your word against theirs unless you challenge it there and then which as noted above, is not straightforward.
I did contact LEAP card support, they were utterly useless and told me to contact Dublin Bus directly even though on their website they actually have an option Fare Dispute > Dublin Bus.

I suspect if a newspaper or consumer agency checked 100 LEAP card journeys they would find a significant amount of overcharging going on.


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## TTI (8 Apr 2015)

odyssey06 said:


> I was overcharged on a Dublin Bus LEAP card journey.
> I can't think of any other service whose charging is so non-transparent at point of sale.



I agree fully with you here, it is next to impossible to see on the Green LCD screen because of the horizontal orientation of it.


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## gipimann (8 Apr 2015)

Whatever you do, I wouldn't waste time emailing Dublin Bus. I was double charged on my leap card last summer, emailed Leap when I spotted it and was referred to Dublin Bus. I emailed DB twice, got a reply over a month later. I got to their offices on O Connell St and got my refund from there.


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## dereko1969 (9 Apr 2015)

odyssey06 said:


> It's very difficult to see what was actually charged there and then - it flashes up for about 2 to 3 seconds on a very small display panel.
> 
> I know I was overcharged because I checked my LEAP card history and saw I was charged 2.05. When I put my boarding stop and the exiting stop (which I clearly stated to the driver) into the Dublin Bus fare calculator, it comes up as 1.50 for LEAP fare.
> 
> ...



I think you're clutching at straws there and rather than jumping straight to conspiracy theories might it make more sense that the driver just made a mistake? There's no financial benefit to the driver in over-charging you, and given their industrial relations record I doubt many of them would be deliberately over-charging to help the company.
I wonder how many people are deliberately under declaring their stop of that same 100, i'd say it would be more than those accidentally over-charged.
Though you shouldn't have to do it, and should be able to rely on the driver to get it correct, it makes sense to use the app or website whilst waiting on the bus to use the fare calculator and then just state that price to the driver.


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## odyssey06 (9 Apr 2015)

dereko1969 said:


> I think you're clutching at straws there and rather than jumping straight to conspiracy theories might it make more sense that the driver just made a mistake? There's no financial benefit to the driver in over-charging you, and given their industrial relations record I doubt many of them would be deliberately over-charging to help the company.
> I wonder how many people are deliberately under declaring their stop of that same 100, i'd say it would be more than those accidentally over-charged.
> Though you shouldn't have to do it, and should be able to rely on the driver to get it correct, it makes sense to use the app or website whilst waiting on the bus to use the fare calculator and then just state that price to the driver.



If the drivers are not accurately entering the stops on the machine, then systematically, customers are being screwed due to the setup of the LEAP card system and the lack of a receipt to verify what stops you have actually been charged for.

If someone has to use an online app or website whilst waiting to get on the bus to verify in advance what a fare should be, I think that just proves my point about the lack of transparency at point of sale. I don't have to do that elsewhere.


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## elcato (9 Apr 2015)

odyssey06 said:


> If the drivers are not accurately entering the stops on the machine, then systematically, customers are being screwed due to the setup of the LEAP card system and the lack of a receipt to verify what stops you have actually been charged for.


I am not sure if they actually press a button that calculates the distanmce you are travelling relative to what stop you are at. I believe they just enter the actual cost they think it is. How else would they be able to enter €1.90 when requested by a passenger as oppose to what stop you are getting off at ?


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## odyssey06 (9 Apr 2015)

Well by the sounds of things, in future I should just going to state a fare amount and not an exiting stop...


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## STEINER (9 Apr 2015)

Every time you board, take a few more seconds and say to the OPO bus driver "fare amount + destination" just to make sure.

Don't say "capiche" out loud whatever you do.

Take 100 said journeys.

Check for overcharging.

You can then make a stronger complaint based on 100 journeys rather than a few randoms.  You have your LEAP online journey record etc.  Any detailed complaint would surely merit investigation by the powers.


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## MrEarl (9 Apr 2015)

Hello,

I would share some of the original posters concerns.  While it's clear that the bus driver has no personal gain from over charging, I fear that they are not often correct in the price they suggest - when you ask the fare between two stops.  It's far easier for a driver to just state the maximum fare for the route, then try and calculate the number of stops between the stop you get on and off at, if not the terminus.

Trying to get a refund from Dublin Bus is a joke and simply unacceptable.  Being told you have to go to their office on O'Connell Street and then only to find, it is only open at certain hours, is prohibititive to being getting their refunds.  I'm amazed no one has tacked this over the years.

I have recently obtained a Leap card and to date, have been far from impressed with it.

To begin with, their website is not entirely compatable with either Chrome or Firefox, which prevents you from completing an initial application for a card online.  I discovered this after significant time having been waisted, when it was finally confirmed to me by a member of the Leap staff.  After pressing the staff member a little, it became apparent that this was a long time problem and the staff were well aware of it, but there was no sign of it being sorted out anytime soon.  The best advice on offer was remove your browser and replace it with Internet Explorer !

The website also for some unknown reason, does not facilitate simple top ups.  If you are not prepared to sign up a direct debit, then you are forced to collect your credit at a nominated Payzone Leap Card "Load Location", after you pay for it at the Leap website.  Absolute madness being told you have to wait (possibly up to 48 hours), then go to a specified shop to get your credit validated (assuming you are using the bus and not passing through a Luas or Dart Station where there is also top up facilities).

The absence of a detailed receipt, either in paper format from Dublin Bus or alternatively, in electronic format detailing the date, time, route and number of stops you traveled, along with the fare you were charged is again not good enough.

I seem to recall that there was some negative publicity surrounding how long it took them to finally produce and launch the Leap card and possibly also, how much was spent on producing it.  Well clearly, whoever was responsible, still hasn't delivered an end product to the standard necessary.


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## STEINER (9 Apr 2015)

I used my LEAP card for the first time this evening, and for the return journey, €2.80 fare, €2.05 LEAP fare.  No problems, and I saw the card balance and the fare charged on the display without any difficulty.  It was the same driver!

The auto top-up facility I requested on Monday still hasn't been set up, which is very slow.


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## TTI (10 Apr 2015)

It is possible to ask for a recent journeys printout from a Dublin Bus driver. This shows the last 5 journeys undertaken including the one you just paid for.


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## STEINER (10 Apr 2015)

TTI said:


> It is possible to ask for a recent journeys printout from a Dublin Bus driver. This shows the last 5 journeys undertaken including the one you just paid for.



My auto top-up actually is very slow, requested from April 2nd.  While I rang customer service about this today, she confirmed to me about this 5 journey bus receipt.

It doesn't seem to be (widely) advertised.  She lightheartedly said that the driver probably wouldn't be too happy.  (Presumably its part of his job).


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## odyssey06 (10 Apr 2015)

Thanks for the tips, will defo make use of the last 5 journey receipt...


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## thedaddyman (10 Apr 2015)

Is the issue here with Leapcard or with Dublin Bus.? I've used mine on private buses and the Luas with no issues whatsoever. My understanding is that Dublin Bus have gone out to tender to upgrade their bus equipment but that it is a major job to do that across the fleet. As for their handling of refunds, in fairness, that is a Dublin Bus policy (similar to not giving change for cash fares if you don't have the exact money)

I have to admit I don't like the Leapcard statements though, I have an Oyster Card as well for use anytime I am in London and it is a lot clearer

Really the whole idea of these kind of cards should be that you never have to interact with a driver (like on the Luas). Human interaction is open to human error.

As for topping up online, a Leapcard is not like a mobile phone, it's a largely dumb piece of plastic with a chip and an antennae but no battery. Cards like this draw their power from whatever you touch it against at a station or shop and it is only then can it download what you've ordered online.  That's why you can't top it up like a PAYG mobile phone.


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## dereko1969 (10 Apr 2015)

thedaddyman said:


> *Is the issue here with Leapcard or with Dublin Bus.?* I've used mine on private buses and the Luas with no issues whatsoever. My understanding is that Dublin Bus have gone out to tender to upgrade their bus equipment but that it is a major job to do that across the fleet. As for their handling of refunds, in fairness, that is a Dublin Bus policy (similar to not giving change for cash fares if you don't have the exact money)
> 
> I have to admit I don't like the Leapcard statements though, I have an Oyster Card as well for use anytime I am in London and it is a lot clearer
> 
> ...



The issue is solely with Dublin Bus. Their arcane stage fare system lends itself to this sort of problem. The ticketing machines are still updated manually by the driver at each stage, that relies on 1) the driver remembering to do so and 2) knowing where the stages on each route are, it leaves it open to all sorts of problems. I've heard the ticket machines are due to be replaced and that the stages will update automatically through GPS but really they should be getting rid of the whole stage system and introducing a zonal fare but given the perilous financial situation Dublin Bus are in this is scaring the horses somewhat.


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## TTI (10 Apr 2015)

STEINER said:


> It doesn't seem to be (widely) advertised.  She lightheartedly said that the driver probably wouldn't be too happy.  (Presumably its part of his job).



I've done it twice and the driver both times had no problem with it.


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## Leo (10 Apr 2015)

dereko1969 said:


> I've heard the ticket machines are due to be replaced and that the stages will update automatically through GPS but really they should be getting rid of the whole stage system and introducing a zonal fare but given the perilous financial situation Dublin Bus are in this is scaring the horses somewhat.



Whoa, sure that's a change in work practices....the drivers are going to have to be compensated for this easing of their work practices...


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## theresa1 (12 Apr 2015)

It should have been a tag on and tag off system from day one but this is Ireland. I have been under and overcharged on occasion.


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## MrEarl (12 Apr 2015)

Was the Leap card ultimately funded by the State ?


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## so-crates (13 Apr 2015)

As an early adopter of the Luas card, a frequent user of the system and having a wallet-load of travel cards from other cities to compare it with, I have not found many problems using the Leap card. I had no issue with the account set up, despite using Firefox so I a surprised to find out there is an issue there. The system on Dublin buses is the most problematic. Without a second set of doors on the bus, tag-on/tag-off becomes more inconvenient to implement also they seemed to feel the need to mirror the existing fare structure. However, I've not had any issues with it (in fact I am more likely to have an issue because I forget to tag-off at a Luas stop.) The system undoubtedly needs an overhaul to modernise the bus experience but otherwise I think it money well spent!


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## so-crates (13 Apr 2015)

I read once that integrated ticketing for Dublin was first proposed in 1904, if it needed a kickstart it was way overdue!


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## STEINER (14 Apr 2015)

Driver's LEAP mistake cost Dublin Bus a few grand............

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...driver-awarded-10500-in-damages-31141753.html


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## odyssey06 (14 Apr 2015)

I was just about to post the link to that Independent article. Further proof, if any was needed, that when it comes to Dublin Bus you need to protect yourself. From now on, everyone should ask for receipt when paying.


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## theresa1 (14 Apr 2015)

She turned down €7,500 -that was brave. Fair play to her. A receipt would not have helped as the driver was over jealous thinking he was doing his job right and yet was completely wrong.


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## MrEarl (15 Apr 2015)

odyssey06 said:


> ...From now on, everyone should ask for receipt when paying.



I would suggest that should be the same for everywhere, not just when dealing with Dublin Bus.


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