# ARF & AMRF Management Fees



## fayf (27 Sep 2019)

Hope someone can give some direction on these queries- thanks in advance for any insight.

Q1: ARF & AMRF Management Fees & Charges

For an example of :

AMRF 63.5 k
ARF 270 k

TOTAL 333.5 k

These are the approx balances, after the tax free lump sum has been taken - 

Example Retiree, is in mid fifties.

What are the typical fees management involved in ARF/AMRF, for the above amounts, and is there a comparative website which shows the different provider charges, or am i being overly optimistic, on this totally transparent industry !

Does it make any sense,  to have both ARF/AMRF with the same provider


Q2: AMRF Fund Growth - is growth above 63.5k, available for withdrawal

Not that a retiree in mid fifties, will get much growth on an amount of 63.5 k, but in say 10 years, there might be scope here : 
Does the AMRF fund growth automatically go into a separate ARF, to enable withdrawal of excess above 63.5 k, or does it just remain where it is, and the Retiree can withdraw the excess >63.5 k whenever they wish


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## Oisin19 (27 Sep 2019)

the fees should be dependent on the level service required. What type of service do you need? 

You can withdraw 4% from the AMRF each year. Any growth remains in the AMRF.


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## fayf (27 Sep 2019)

I am wondering what the general charges levels are at, for with, and without ongoing advice


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## Marc (27 Sep 2019)

Given the risks of losing mental capacity during aging I would suggest ongoing advice is absolutely essential, critical even, for anyone considering an ARF.

The wholesale cost of an ARF contract is 0.30%pa
Plus fund charges
Plus advice charges

So typically you would be looking at a combined cost of around 1.60%pa to 2% depending on investment preferences including a typical ongoing advice charge.

I’ve updated this to include a more expensive investment preference such as an Ethical portfolio.

There is a statutory obligation to arrange life assurance when arranging a mortgage loan.

In my professional opinion there should be a statutory obligation to arrange ongoing advice with an ARF.









						Planning for Retirement Planning for retirement - a guide for investors in
					

The purpose of this guide is to provide investors approaching retirement with an understanding of their retirement options and some of the more important issues to consider.  It also sets out generic guidelines for advisers seeking to advise their clients on retirement planning matters.  Clients...




					joom.ag


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## KOW (27 Sep 2019)

Marc said:


> Given the risks of losing mental capacity during aging I would suggest ongoing advice is absolutely essential, critical even, for anyone considering an ARF.
> 
> The wholesale cost of an ARF contract is 0.30%pa
> Plus fund charges
> ...


 Marc,
 Would I be correct in saying that the fees then  for a total of 335k would be in the region of 5360 euro per annum or 103 euro per week.
Say .30% for contract. Then going .75 for usual type fund charge. Leaving .55% for advise. That would be over 1800 euro for advise per annum.
I think I would sit down with an adviser once a year for an hour and pay my 150-200 euro for advise if required.
Marc my comments are not aimed at you but at the rip off fees here in our little shamrock.
A number of years ago I went to three separate highly rated financial advisers. The difference in their advise was minimal. No offence to you Marc but because the way things work in Ireland if I came to a good adviser like yourself or any of the other top advisers that post reguarly on AAM you would all give me the same advise more or less.
When oh when can Paddy invest in simple cheap products that the likes of Warren Buff. and co. recommend.


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## Marc (27 Sep 2019)

Why not test that assumption out?

086 043 0627

Or download a copy of my guide which runs to 70 pages and sets out the issues you need to consider in making this decision.


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## fayf (28 Sep 2019)

Thanks for the replies to date, lots of homework to do here. 

I have a PRB and the total fees are 0.80 % (0.55 % to provider and 0.25 % to advisor),it comes with ongoing advice,  so a jump to 1.60% or a 100% increase, sounds excessive,  if i am totally honest.


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## fayf (28 Sep 2019)

KOW said:


> Marc,
> I think I would sit down with an adviser once a year for an hour and pay my 150-200 euro for advise if required.



Sounds like a good idea this approach. Annual advice by way of fees.


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## Marc (28 Sep 2019)

It’s very probable that your “0.55%” to the provider isn’t the real cost of investing.

We have uncovered many such funds are disclosing annual management charges instead of total costs.

For low cost passive funds disclosing say 0.40% the real cost was over 1%

At the other extreme we found an externally managed specialist fund disclosing 1.75% and the real cost was in excess of 5%pa









						Comment: Cut through the smoke and reflect on mirror funds
					

Hidden charges cloud the cost of investing in Ireland




					www.businesspost.ie


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## Marc (28 Sep 2019)

fayf said:


> Sounds like a good idea this approach. Annual advice by way of fees.




I agree in principle it does sound like a good idea. However some things to think about.

1) professional consultancy fees are subject to VAT whereas intermediary fees are exempt from VAT 
2) if an adviser takes their fee from a pension or an ARF then that’s pre-tax money whereas writing a cheque comes from post tax money 

So for every €100 of advice fees paid from a pension or Arf contract the equivalent fee for hourly consulting is up to €223 including vat and income tax depending on one’s marginal rate.

One of my proposals to the department of finance when I was on the Board of the Society of Financial Planners in Ireland was to make provision for tax exempt financial advice annually up to say €1000pa to regularize this position.


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## KOW (28 Sep 2019)

After taking tax free lump sum fayf has 335k roughly to invest.

 Unfortunately average person in Ireland does not have this amount in their pension.

Investing this 335k would not be he same as a person say having 2 million and multi assets.

 Congrats to fayf on having this sum. While I do not know or have  detail around fayf,s  full financial situation I would suggest that investing the 335k and talking to the person the risk/reward discussion would not be as complex as a person with 2 million and multi assets.

So in turn investments should not be super complex and investment charges in turn  should be simple. 
Adviser advises fayf to invest in certain fund etc.  Fayf asks what is the actual cost for this type of investment you are suggesting. 
In other words just tell me the exact charges on the investments you are recommending. If its not simple walk away.

So really getting down to VAT etc and hidden charges is really a waste of time on such sums as mentioned above. Why in Gods name would fayf want to pay out 1800 euro a year when 223 euro would do. If any investment is not simply understood why would fayf or anybody consider investing.

KISS. For me KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID works.

Surely fayf does not need advise on complex investments/structures etc.


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## Marc (28 Sep 2019)

_"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. ... When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can't be done"

John Ruskin _

This has nothing to do with the size of the account or if the whole account is invested in a single index fund. *An ARF* *is an extremely complex* *structure*  (hence my point that there should be a statutory requirement to appoint an adviser) and the main reason for this is that where the owner has lost mental capacity there needs to be someone competent to step in and act in the best interests of the retiree who would be completely incapable of making any decisions. Its not about whether or not you can make decisions today. You aren't taking out an ARF for a year, you are taking it out for the whole of the rest of your life and you will get older each year and require more assistance at precisely the time that the value of your account is almost certainly worth less than it is today.

I have a client who literally has no family who can step into this role before anyone says that a power of attorney to a child solves it. Not everyone has children and even then not everyone wants to put this "burden" onto their family.

I'm also going to dismiss out of court the suggested cost of meeting an adviser for an hour a year as neither adequate, appropriate or commercially realistic

I'd like to see where anyone can find an adviser who can run a regulated business and charge their clients €150 to €200 once a year

*Annual Meeting*
Meeting room cost (let's say a serviced office which charges from €50 to €100 per hour) or maybe we will just hang around a hotel lobby while discussing your personal confidential details?
Travel costs to meeting ( maybe I'll walk into town?)
Staff Costs (advisers salary? what about support staff?)
Regulatory levies - includes the cost of contribution to the investor compensation scheme
Continuing Professional Development - all advisers in Ireland are required to complete a minimum of 15 hours a year of CPD. A good CPD event costs €100 or €200 to attend or I can save some money going to "free" events which are sponsored by product producers - I wonder if that might result in less objective advice??? However, for full disclosure I have an additional 70 hours on top of the minimum due to the additional professional designations I hold.
Professional Indemnity Insurance  a legal requirement. I've just renewed my PI policy €6562.50 including 5% levy so that's 32 one hour meetings at €200 an hour just to pay for my Insurance. So I'd need at least 32 clients just to pay for Professional Indemnity premium so I'm going to need a lot of clients which leads onto
Marketing costs - how much do I need to spent on marketing my services?
Update Anti Money Laundering Documentation a legal requirement - could use a smart phone for this but monthly contract required
Update Know your customer data a regulatory requirement - do we do this in the meeting? Doesn't leave much time to talk about the ARF does it?
Obtain valuation statement (since you are not paying for an ongoing service) do you bring the statement and I read it really quickly or do I phone the ARF provider beforehand and spend an hour of my time on hold listening to the Fields of Athenry?

And then the big question: are you paying for an hour of my time or my experience and credentials? Are you really sure that you want advice on your life savings from a newly qualified inexperienced adviser who is willing to give you their time for free?

It's not the fault of advisers that they have to charge to provide a regulated service in Ireland

So, in summary the cost to provide  an insured, regulated Professional Service in Ireland for a €335,000 ARF



Example for illustrative purposes only



Marc Westlake CFP*®*, TEP, APFS, EFP ,QFA
CHARTERED, CERTIFIED & EUROPEAN FINANCIAL PLANNER™ professional
AND REGISTERED TRUST & ESTATE PRACTITIONER


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## Marc (28 Sep 2019)

_"So really getting down to VAT etc and_* hidden charges is really a waste of time *_on such sums as mentioned above. "_

This is an example over the last 3 years of a well-known low cost index fund (the red dot) compared to the "identical" same fund offered to Irish Pension and ARF clients from an Irish Insurance Company (the blue dot).

Now I know that we pay 0.15%pa for the blue dot and I can prove that because I can obtain audited annual accounts
The difference in annualised peformance between the two versions of the fund is 0.49%pa so therefore the total cost of the fund to Irish investors is 0.64%pa

The provider is disclosing an annual management charge of 0.30% before allowing for distribution costs so on a €335,000 pension fund that's €1,139pa in undisclosed costs and an overall cost difference of €1641pa for one fund.




Here's another example same fund manager different fund



That's a 0.94%pa difference in performance over the last 3 years.

We pay 0.18%pa and I can prove that because I can obtain audited annual accounts

so an Irish investor has been paying 1.12%pa for the same fund

Now our €335,000 ARF investor is out €3149pa in fund management cost differences.

Hopefully this makes the point that even in a simple two fund portfolio of well known low cost index funds there is a considerable amount on the table.

Investors can either bundle all of this together into a simple off the shelf opaque structure or construct a more transparent solution but please don't say that it isn't worth looking into this in some detail


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## KOW (28 Sep 2019)

I cannot disagree  with any of the above Marc.

That said I have as most customers will have no interest in your costs or regulation money laundering issues indemnity insurance. I as any customer would expect any professional  to be up to date and  compliant in all these areas.
If I go and see a medical Consultant I have no interest in his/her indemnity insurance registration etc .I just want them to fix my problem.

I dont mean to be disrespectful but most people would be the same. They want a good service at a fair price.



1. Wholesale rate to set up ARF .3% no problem.

2. I would discuss where I would invest my pension money with adviser. I would choose where to invest funds. If the adviser did not know straight up what the actual bottom line on the fund/investment vehicle charges were I would walk.

 If I sat down with an adviser for lets say 3 full hours and supplied detailed information on my financial situation I would expect them to come up with a detailed plan/projection. Then say follow up with another meeting to fine tune and nail down the detail. 

So a bit of time and effort on the advisers behalf. So lets say some advisers would charge 1% of 335k.
 So 3350 euro. 
Not no problem but can live with that,

3.  As most people monies invested in ARF AMRF is a long hall job. Charging even .5% or 1650 euro advise charges for most probably a print out of performance for the previous year and little more is money for old rope to me. 

Yes certain clients will want ongoing advise or maybe just find comfort in consulting in financial advisers.

Me. I wish I could pay the .3% and go solo. Im retired at 56. I might start drawing down my pension at 60 pending on value etc at that time.

The only time I have lost serious money is taking financial advise from lads with lots of letters behind their name. I have a few letters behind mine.

But what has worked for me and the reason I am retired is KISS. 

Keep It Simple Stupid.

Nobody will ever look after your money better than yourself.


LOL


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## Marc (28 Sep 2019)

Thanks for the comments.

Don’t think you address my salient point that 

Approximately 15% of adults aged 60 and over suffer from a mental disorder. Which sort of flies in the face of your argument that the best person to manage your wealth over the whole of the rest of your life is you.


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## Sarenco (28 Sep 2019)

Marc said:


> The difference in annualised peformance between the two versions of the fund is 0.49%pa so therefore the total cost of the fund to Irish investors is 0.64%pa


Do your comparators include the 0.30% platform charge and your 0.55% investment management fee (that obviously wouldn't apply to a unit linked fund)?  

Incidentally, kudos for being so transparent about the total costs of your services.  I guess people can form their own view on whether or not they represent good value.


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## Marc (28 Sep 2019)

0.18 + 0.3 + 0.55 = 1.03
Vs 1.12

I’m struggling to see the argument


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## Sarenco (28 Sep 2019)

Marc said:


> 0.18 + 0.3 + 0.55 = 1.03
> Vs 1.12


0.15 + 0.3 + 0.55 = 1%
Vs 0.64%


Marc said:


> The difference in annualised peformance between the two versions of the fund is 0.49%pa so therefore the total cost of the fund to Irish investors is 0.64%pa


I'm struggling to see the benefit.


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## Marc (28 Sep 2019)

Oh, then I’ll spell it out
That’s the wholesale cost
The retail price as disclosed in the SID for that fund is 0.92%

So you are getting off balance sheet custody with a 1.7 Trillion dollar custodian plus full discretionary management for 11 basis points

Equally I can change the fund manager for the same index and get it for 12 bps for the OCF.

Or I can use a different version of the same index from the same fund manager and I’m down to 7 bps 

If I overweight the US relative to Europe I’m closer to 4bps 

I could go on


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## Sarenco (28 Sep 2019)

Sorry, what's a SID?

The bottom line is your unbundled service is more expensive than the unit-linked equivalent.


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## Marc (28 Sep 2019)

Simplified Information Document (SID)

Awkward moment where everyone realizes that critic needs assistance to continue argument - back to the cut and thrust 

More expensive? Apples and oranges!
In 1999, Equitable launched court  proceedings to enable it to force policyholders to accept bonus cuts. It won the first stage of its battle only to lose in the Court of Appeal and then the House of Lords.
Unable to pay the £1.5bn cost of losing the court case it was forced to put itself up for sale. In December 2000, having failed to find a buyer, the insurer closed to new business.


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## Sarenco (28 Sep 2019)

Sorry Marc but that's an obvious red herring.

You suggested that the unbundled package that you offer is cheaper than a unit-linked equivalent.  Your own figures show that's not the case.


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## Sarenco (28 Sep 2019)

Marc said:


> Awkward moment where everyone realizes that critic needs assistance to continue argument - back to the cut and thrust


What's awkward?

You said the total cost to an ARF investor of investing in a unit-linked index fund was 0.64% (as against a disclosed AMC of 0.30%).  Investing in the same fund through your unbundled package, per your original schedule, costs 1%.

And that's before taking account of your advisory fee.

As I said, folks can form their own judgment on the value of your services.


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## Marc (28 Sep 2019)

What’s awkward is you didn’t know what a SID document is.
I didn’t say our service is cheaper. I said it was more transparent.
You ignore the fact that the retail cost of a single equity fund is 0.92% vs the disclosed 0.3% amc and that in reality no one would invest a €300k ARF in a single fund. Yet you  plough on with your incessant attempts to discredit a professional service.

Block


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## Sarenco (28 Sep 2019)

No, I've never heard of a SID before.  I don't find that awkward.

Are you now saying the total cost of the unit-linked index fund is not 0.64%?


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## Sarenco (28 Sep 2019)

Marc said:


> I didn’t say our service is cheaper. I said it was more transparent.


And I applaude your transparency.

But as a consumer I would still want the same product at a materially cheaper price.


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## Marc (29 Sep 2019)

So dear readers here you see set out the crux of the issues.

Many posters on Askaboutmoney perceive the role of a financial adviser as simply an intermediary to be instructed to arrange a contract on the keenest terms.

Many posters believe that they are perfectly capable of making their own financial decisions and don’t see why they should have to pay for a service that they don’t value.

That’s all fine and THAT is their right and where their right ends. They don’t have the right to extent their preferences to everyone else.

A professional adviser will pose a professional opinion of a matter for an investor to consider and reflect upon. One will note for example that I posed the question;”how might one deal with a loss of mental capacity” and this challenging question was deftly ignored by those hellbent on self direction.

This is because the answer doesn’t suit the argument that; “I am perfectly capable of making my own investment decisions”. I accept that maybe true today but of course, We pick up the pieces down the line when widows and widowers and families call into me to sort out the mess.

Since the advice is provided by a corporate chartered financial planning business it can neither die nor lose mental capacity.

I have never sought to operate or give the impression that I operate as a facilitator simply to be instructed to arrange the cheapest contract.

I believe that a professional adviser can add more value than simply arranging a contact. I can and daily do prove this value on an ongoing basis.

One aspect of this proof is derived from the fact that I am able to demonstrate that virtually all the investment and pension contracts on sale in Ireland today have misleading pricing so that when our hapless DIY investor instructs their broker to arrange the cheapest contract on the keenest commercial terms, more often than not, they are offered an off the shelf retail contact.

As I have illustrated in this thread, simply accepting the stated charges as the real cost of investing is invariably lulling the investor into a false sense of security.

As the original poster sets out “I have a PRB and the total fees are 0.80 %”

I’m certain that they are paying more than 0.8% but that price serves as the anchor upon which price and value are judged.

I’ve literally had people tell me that they don’t like our service because we tell them exactly what they are paying and they prefer not to know.

This is a well documented condition in the   psychology literature.

Say you think you might have an illness. You fear going to the doctor in case you find out. Many people therefore put off going to the doctor which of course is irrational and could make things worse.

Recent regulation has shone a light upon some charges and it is now easier for all investors to see their charges and to make comparisons. This is true of many areas of investing except pension and post retirement  ARF contracts, the subject of this thread.

As a rule of thumb one way to tell if you have opaque pricing is if you have been given “allocation rates”

An allocation rate is simply a commission option. You have an opaque contract.

It’s very often the case that when we break down the various parts of a service, as I have done in this thread, it is often possible to obtain a qualitatively better service (more transparent, more flexible, more choice, best in class etc) for approximately the same price as the retail contract.

Indeed, depending on where one is starting from it is very often possible to arrange a qualitatively better contract and save money.

For example I recently analyzed a retail investment fund compared to some of our portfolios for taxable investment accounts.

Some of my conclusions are set out

The risk adjusted returns, as measured by the Sharpe Ratio, are considerably better over both 3 and 5 years and although past performance is no guarantee of future returns, over 5 years the portfolio has outperformed the benchmark by an average of 3.49%pa gross of tax and allowing for all fund management charges (excluding advice fees, platform and dealing charges).

For an Irish resident investor, the returns net of tax could have been up to 4.96%pa higher than the investment fund  which is subject to exit tax at a rate of 41% currently (depending on income tax status and if capital losses are available)

So, by my calculations an investor could have been up to 7%pa better off from this portfolio compared to a popular UCITS fund over the last 5 years.

Now I’m not going to claim that we always make people 7%pa better off but it does go to illustrate what is potentially possible.

A more reasonable number and representative of our findings is that for the same investment risk 1.5%pa is a reasonable overall value add for a typical investor.

For reference the last statement we saw had total charges paid by investor last year 3.3% our service providing the same investment outcomes cost 1.47%pa

Important to point out that these excess returns are derived from highly diversified market cap weighted equity portfolios. No attempt to try to beat the market from either stock picking or market timing.


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## KOW (29 Sep 2019)

Good morning folks. Just before walking my dogs across the fields.

Fayf I think fees are over the top especially on the ongoing advise end of things.

You will need to shop around and research before choosing or using a adviser.

The likes of Marc will offer honest information you dont have to go with it or like it.


A few last comments just for a laugh. 

1. Two top fund managers who predicted the last crash and manage billions in America last week gave their predictions for the S&P 500 in ten years time. One said it would be at 4000 the other 8000.


2. Charlie Munger 95. Warren Buffet born 1930 aged 89. Marc easy on the mental capacity.Most people would not go near a financial adviser if they thought they were going to loose the marbles. Marc you might have to retire at sixty

Look after that money its a mine field out there. ---Walkies. Thanks all.


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## GSheehy (30 Sep 2019)

fayf said:


> I have a PRB and the total fees are 0.80 % (0.55 % to provider and 0.25 % to advisor),it comes with ongoing advice,......



Have you asked this intermediary about the transaction (from PRB to A(M)RF) and what his/her charging structure would be on the A(M)RF?


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## elacsaplau (30 Sep 2019)

Hi GSheehy,

I appreciate your clear writing style and wonder if you could help me understand the following please.

Lets take a pension index fund. For simplicity, let's take a Eurozone equities index fund, designed to track Eurozone equities. And let's take 5 year performance figures to avoid potential short-term distortions.

Can you advise please:

1. What the index return/benchmark return should be (including dividends re-invested, etc.)?

2. What the actual return is from various relevant Irish index pension funds?

3. Confirmation that the difference between 1 and 2 is accounted for by tracking error and all charges.

4. How this difference compares with the disclosed management charges.

I appreciate that there may be a bit of work involved here but it would be very informative,


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## cremeegg (30 Sep 2019)

Marc said:


> Thanks for the comments.
> 
> Don’t think you address my salient point that
> 
> Approximately 15% of adults aged 60 and over suffer from a mental disorder. Which sort of flies in the face of your argument that the best person to manage your wealth over the whole of the rest of your life is you.



The specific point that many people will in time become unable to manage their own affairs, is of course reasonable, but most people would turn to family in that scenario. Of course there are some who cannot or do not wish to, but I think that is a narrow group on which to base your argument.


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## Sarenco (30 Sep 2019)

Fully agree with @cremeegg.

I would invest my ARF (assuming I make it that far!) in a static allocation of three or four very simple index funds that I am confident my spouse/next of kin would be able to "manage" if I go gaga.

We will also put enduring powers of attorney in place and continue to engage an accountant to look after tax filings, etc.


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## Sarenco (30 Sep 2019)

Marc said:


> You ignore the fact that the retail cost of a single equity fund is 0.92% vs the disclosed 0.3% amc


Well, you originally said the total cost to the investor was 0.64%, against a disclosed AMC of 0.3%.


Marc said:


> Now I know that we pay 0.15%pa for the blue dot and I can prove that because I can obtain audited annual accounts
> The difference in annualised peformance between the two versions of the fund is 0.49%pa so therefore the total cost of the fund to Irish investors is 0.64%pa
> 
> The provider is disclosing an annual management charge of 0.30%...



Insurers charge different AMCs on different ARF contracts so I don't know what you mean by "retail cost".

Regardless, even 0.92% is cheaper than your unbundled offering, before taking account of your additional 1% annual advisory fee.


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## KOW (30 Sep 2019)

Sarenco said:


> Fully agree with @cremeegg.
> 
> I would invest my ARF (assuming I make it that far!) in a static allocation of three or four very simple index funds that I am confident my spouse/next of kin would be able to "manage" if I go gaga.
> 
> We will also put enduring powers of attorney in place and continue to engage an accountant to look after tax filings, etc.


Sarenco,
               Absolutely a few index funds. Nothing fancy nothing costly and every chance of performing as well if not better then the lads/ladies looking into the crystal ball.


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## fayf (30 Sep 2019)

GSheehy said:


> Have you asked this intermediary about the transaction (from PRB to A(M)RF) and what his/her charging structure would be on the A(M)RF?





GSheehy said:


> Have you asked this intermediary about the transaction (from PRB to A(M)RF) and what his/her charging structure would be on the A(M)RF?



Not yet, as i am only starting the research, and wanted some overview from on here.

I don’t believe my previous post has been answered - why am i paying 0.80 % right now, including advice - for the PRB, and several suggestions here, that once i trigger the PRB into ARF/AMRF, it will be paying a considerably higher, up to 1.60 %.


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## elacsaplau (6 Oct 2019)

I was in the US during the week and was talking to someone bout investment management fees.

I was told that the Vanguard Fund which tracks the S&P 500, has a stated management charge of 0.14% and that this charges is pretty much the difference between the fund's return and the gross (including dividends re-invested return) of the S&P 500. In addition, there would be account and fund fees - which depending on the size of the fund - would be a few additional basis points. Let's say, total fees of 0.18% and significantly these fees are available to the retail investor. This all seems to add up - see link.


Please compare and contrast these fees with the type of fees mentioned in this thread. Apart from the massive fee differential, it is noteworthy that the stated fees by Vanguard represent the actual fee impact to customers (whereas, according to Marc, the stated management fees in Ireland represent only a portion of total fees)? [Why is this and why can't the Central Bank not prescribe that the total fees are clearly disclosed?]

I would like to get to the bottom of this. Maybe, GSheehy will get a chance yo answer my earlier queries?


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## Steven Barrett (7 Oct 2019)

fayf said:


> Not yet, as i am only starting the research, and wanted some overview from on here.
> 
> I don’t believe my previous post has been answered - why am i paying 0.80 % right now, including advice - for the PRB, and several suggestions here, that once i trigger the PRB into ARF/AMRF, it will be paying a considerably higher, up to 1.60 %.



You can expect to pay 1% for an ARF/ AMRF. Why 1% when you are paying 0.8% for your PRB? There is more advice in working with retirees as they have stopped working there is more work involved in the management of their retirement income. I am not talking about moving funds around but making sure they have enough money to enjoy retirement or put money away for later.

Last week, I had a annual planning meeting with a client (meeting took 1 hour, work before and after took considerably more) and the work she had to do afterwards? Book a 1st class ticket to India as spending time there was something she always wanted to do but never thought she could afford to. We showed her that she could. This client pays me to tell her to spend her money because I provide her with the certainty that it's alright to do so. 



Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## JoeRoberts (24 Oct 2019)

is there such a thing as execution only ARF on the Irish market ?  The reason for the higher charge in an ARF is that the pension holder has no choice but to take an ARF in order to get the tax free lump sum (that was used to sell the pension promise in the first place). 
So providers effectively cream the pensioner when he is cornered in a catch 22.


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## GSheehy (25 Oct 2019)

JoeRoberts said:


> is there such a thing as execution only ARF on the Irish market ?



Yes, there's one with Zurich Life available on my pension product website here


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## elacsaplau (25 Oct 2019)

That's really good, GSheehy

For PAYE folk, if they have the application form and cheque hand delivered to Zurich by Thursday - will this meet the 31st October deadline?

Thanks!


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## GSheehy (25 Oct 2019)

elacsaplau said:


> For PAYE folk, if they have the application form and cheque hand delivered to Zurich by Thursday - will this meet the 31st October deadline?



The date on the RAC/PRSA1/PRSA2 Certificate will be the date that Zurich Life receive the money.

You're going a bit off thread though.


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## elacsaplau (25 Oct 2019)

Thanks GSheehy

Getting back o  topic!, could you answer post 30 please? 

I think this would help lots of people.


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## GSheehy (25 Oct 2019)

@elacsaplau 

You can research most of that yourself by picking an Irish product provider and index tracking fund that you want to compare to the bare index. 

You'd be better off doing some of the leg work, posting it in a new thread, and when you run into a problem with it address it to more than one person on here.

Like you said, there's a bit of work in it.


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## Sunny (29 Oct 2019)

SBarrett said:


> Last week, I had a annual planning meeting with a client (meeting took 1 hour, work before and after took considerably more) and the work she had to do afterwards? Book a 1st class ticket to India as spending time there was something she always wanted to do but never thought she could afford to. We showed her that she could. This client pays me to tell her to spend her money because I provide her with the certainty that it's alright to do so.
> 
> Steven
> www.bluewaterfp.ie



So an individual goes to a financial advisor thinking she can't afford a trip to India and comes out and books not only a ticket to India but a FIRST CLASS Ticket to India after finding out she has more money than she thought......Can you let me know when you are free Steven?!!!


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## Steven Barrett (29 Oct 2019)

Sunny said:


> So an individual goes to a financial advisor thinking she can't afford a trip to India and comes out and books not only a ticket to India but a FIRST CLASS Ticket to India after finding out she has more money than she thought......Can you let me know when you are free Steven?!!!



It is a case of someone being overly cautious with their money and holding back on spending it on experiences for fear of running out in the future. I was able to show that client, using prudent assumptions, that she has enough money to do these things. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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