# Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are not?



## TheBlock (12 Dec 2008)

Hi all not sure if this is the correct place for this. Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are not. 

For example J Bloggs and Son's Electricians or Carpenters etc...

I have just spoken to a guy who advertises under a trade (as above) and has never had any qualifications in this trade. He is under the impression he is doing nothing wrong as "sure I'm as good as any qualified person"

Just curious as this is what I would call cowboyism (new word) and I don't like to see people get ripped off. Fair enough if you hire a guy who says I'm not qualified but can do the job thats your decision,but surley it's illegal to claim to be something your not in a professional setting.

Dr TheBlock


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## ubiquitous (12 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

The country is full of accountants with no qualifications, many of whom run their own practices. I don't think they do much harm.


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## gillarosa (12 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



ubiquitous said:


> The country is full of accountants with no qualifications, many of whom run their own practices. I don't think they do much harm.


 
Really? I don't think that is true at all


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## ubiquitous (12 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



gillarosa said:


> Really? I don't think that is true at all



You don't think what is not true?


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## Jack2008 (12 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

It is absolutly true! Know of one guy in Clarinbrige who runs his own "aacountancy" practice and only has the leaving cert!!!

There is no law to protect the word "accountant" - anybody can call themselves one which is pretty unfair to the people that go to the bother and expense of sitting final accounting exams.

In relation to the blocks query I would imagine it is the same situation. Do tradespeople have to be registered with a central body like accountants register and take the exams of eg ACCA of CPA?


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## truthseeker (12 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

Plenty of 'tradesmen' around who dont have full City and Guilds (or whatever is relevant) qualifications. 

You wont get hired by a reputable firm in a qualified position if you dont have the correct qualifications, but there is nothing to stop you starting your own business and calling yourself whatever trade is relevant.


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## PaddyBloggit (12 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

I know a guy who started fitting curtain poles and curtains. He now calls himself a roofer and advertises himself as a qualified tradesman who cuts roofs to size on site!

I wonder if he's still cutting roofs or if he has gone back to fitting curtains and curtain poles now that the economy has turned?


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## ubiquitous (13 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



PaddyBloggit said:


> I know a guy who started fitting curtain poles and curtains. He now calls himself a roofer and advertises himself as a qualified tradesman who cuts roofs to size on site!



So? Many people retrain and redevelop their skills in the course of the careers.


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## ubiquitous (13 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



Jack2008 said:


> There is no law to protect the word "accountant" - anybody can call themselves one which is pretty unfair to the people that go to the bother and expense of sitting final accounting exams.



I disagree, even though I myself qualified as a chartered accountant. I have 2 reasons for this:

1. Experience is much more important than qualifications. 
2. Competition is great. Accountancy would be the ultimate closed shop if bodies like the ICAI were allowed control over the number of accountants in the country.


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## murphaph (13 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

Whilst I agree that 'professional bodies' rarely aid competition (and hence the consumer), I do believe that anyone seeking to call themselves an "accountant" should have some state recognised qualification. "Architect" is shockingly unprotected too. 

In many european countries you must have relevant minimum qualifications to be allowed use a professional name. These don't have to be controlled by a "professional body" however. So long as you attend a recognised Uni course and pass, you can be an accountant/engineer/etc.


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## mathepac (13 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

TTBOMK only the terms "medical doctor", "dentist / dental surgeon", "solicitor", "veterinarian", "barrister" are protected by legislation governing the use of any of those terms as an occupation or profession by an unqulaified person.

Other than that there is nothing in law to stop anyone hanging out a shingle with whatever soubriquet they choose to adopt e.g. "therapist", "counsellor", "roofer", "builder", "mechanic", etc. The only time an offence is committed is if someone appends letters implying membership of a professional qualifying body recognised by the State.


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## cleverclogs7 (13 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

I give my daughter calpol when she has fever,should i call myself a doctor.hum......the mind boggles


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## PaddyBloggit (13 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

Dr. Cleverclogs7 ........... has that certain ring to it!


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## allthedoyles (13 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

these guys provide a service...............it is up to you to decide whether to accept their services or not.................depending on price , quality , etc


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## PaddyBloggit (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



allthedoyles said:


> these guys provide a service...............it is up to you to decide whether to accept their services or not.................depending on price , quality , etc



I agree but part of deciding is based on their claims of professional qualifications.

It all come down to caveat emptor .... buyer beware.

Best way to check up on a tradesman's work is to go and see some of their work and talk to previous customers. If they can stand over their work then they should have no problem providing names etc. of satisfied customers. If you spot anything dodgy, false claims of expertise, just use those boots (as Nancy Sinatra would say) for walking .... and try someone else!


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## Complainer (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



murphaph said:


> "Architect" is shockingly unprotected too.


The process of protecting the term 'architect' is well underway. The relevant legislation has been passed, and just needs to be kicked off by the Minister.


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## MugsGame (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*

The title Chartered Engineer is legally protected in Ireland. I assume if someone misappropriated a titlte like Chartered Accountant (not directly protected by statute AFAIK) the relevant professional body would sue them. As Ubi says experience is far more important than qualifications, which is why both of these titles require supervised professional experience to attain.

I wouldn't like to see the rediculous system some US states have where generic terms like "engineer" are protected (and licensed.).


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## Bank Manager (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



ubiquitous said:


> The country is full of accountants with no qualifications, many of whom run their own practices. I don't think they do much harm.


 
Big statement that - I don't actually know how many are not qualified to either agree or disagree with your assertion that 'the country is full of' them - what I do know is that the few I have encountered have by and large done their clients untold damage in terms of bad advice, whether in terms of tax advice, investment advice or succession planning advice.

Personally I believe if someone is selling themself as an 'accountant' they should have a qualification to back same up.

Regards,

BM


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## ajapale (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*

Moved from  Askaboutlaw to  [URL="http://www.askaboutmoney.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20"]Consumer Issues and Rights.
[/URL]
Title expanded to reflect question better.

aj
(moderator)
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/forumdisplay.php?f=40


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## Padraigb (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*

The thread title re-focuses the issue.

Anybody can call himself or herself a plumber or accountant or electrician or engineer (but not a solicitor or medical doctor, among a short list of truly reserved professions).

Claiming to be "qualified" opens up a can of worms. In the case of the statutory trades, I think the courts might take the view that a person would need to have the appropriate trade papers. I suspect the courts might have a difficulty in deciding what constitutes qualification in accountancy or engineering.


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## Jane Doe (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



allthedoyles said:


> these guys provide a service...............it is up to you to decide whether to accept their services or not.................depending on price , quality , etc


Under the sale of good and suply of services 1980 they must be competent to carry out the services they advertise


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## bond-007 (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



MugsGame said:


> .I wouldn't like to see the rediculous system some US states have where generic terms like "engineer" are protected (and licensed.).



Why? It would put a stop to the likes of Sky dish installers calling themselves engineers when they are clearly not.


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## ubiquitous (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



Bank Manager said:


> Big statement that - I don't actually know how many are not qualified to either agree or disagree with your assertion that 'the country is full of' them - what I do know is that the few I have encountered have by and large done their clients untold damage in terms of bad advice, whether in terms of tax advice, investment advice or succession planning advice.



Why haven't they sued?


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## Purple (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*

I wouldn't like to think my house was wired by a guy who wasn't trained as an electrician.


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## bond-007 (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*

It is entirely possible. Electrician is not a protected term.


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## PaddyBloggit (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*



Purple said:


> I wouldn't like to think my house was wired by a guy who wasn't trained as an electrician.




house wiring has to be certified otherwise ESB will refuse to connect. Also important for house insurance purposes etc.

If the electrician is registered with RECI it's a help too.


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## bond-007 (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*

Actually the ESB no longer connect your domestic wiring to their meter, that is left to the electrician to do now. The ESB only provide the meter and a contractors switch. It is up to the electrician to switch on the power to the house. It basically protects the ESB from any liability if something went wrong.


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## PaddyBloggit (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*



bond-007 said:


> Actually the ESB no longer connect your domestic wiring to their meter, that is left to the electrician to do now. The ESB only provide the meter and a contractors switch. It is up to the electrician to switch on the power to the house. It basically protects the ESB from any liability if something went wrong.




But it does have to be connected by a certified/registered electrician.


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## bond-007 (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*



PaddyBloggit said:


> But it does have to be connected by a certified/registered electrician.


Nope. I have heard of first year apprentices being given the switch key to energise new houses.


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## ubiquitous (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*



PaddyBloggit said:


> But it does have to be connected by a certified/registered electrician.



This is correct. Although there is nothing to stop the certifying electrician from delegating the work. However it is their neck that is on the line if anything goes wrong. Btw the same principle applies in every solicitors and accountants office in the country. For example, a very high proportion of audit work by Big 4 firms is done by trainees.


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## Padraigb (14 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*



bond-007 said:


> Nope. I have heard of first year apprentices being given the switch key to energise new houses.



I don't doubt what you say. But the ESB requires that the work be *certified* by a qualified electrician. Who has done the work, and who makes the final connection to the mains supply, is not material. It is done on the responsibility of the certifying electrician.


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## MrMan (15 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*



Padraigb said:


> I don't doubt what you say. But the ESB requires that the work be *certified* by a qualified electrician. Who has done the work, and who makes the final connection to the mains supply, is not material. It is done on the responsibility of the certifying electrician.



Which leaves you in the same position, you can't be certain the guy doing the job is qualified.


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## Padraigb (15 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*



MrMan said:


> Which leaves you in the same position, you can't be certain the guy doing the job is qualified.



True. But the intention is that the work be checked out by somebody who is qualified to ensure that things are done to the right standard.

If all work had to be conducted by somebody who is qualified, apprentices would not be allowed on a site.


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## bond-007 (15 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*

Apprentices are supposed to be supervised on a site, they are often never supervised. Certs were often completed using standard values from an old job. With the new system the ESB came up with, certs were often submitted to the ESB before any work was ever carried out. As the ESB employee you are caught in the middle.


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## Bank Manager (15 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



ubiquitous said:


> Why haven't they sued?



Two did or attempted to, but apparently legal advice to them at the time was that the 'accountant' had no assets, and even if they were successful and obtained a judgement there would be nothing to enforce it against.  They decided to walk away from it at that stage, as they would have only incurred costs with no benefit to themselves.

Couple of others reached that conclusion without seeking legal advice, and the remaining four, I genuinely don't know what if any action they either have taken or intend to take.

Regards,


Bm


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## Graham_07 (15 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



ubiquitous said:


> The country is full of accountants with no qualifications, many of whom run their own practices. I don't think they do much harm.


 
I have seen excellent work done by unqualified accountants and equally appalling work done by members of recognised accountancy bodies. I expect the same may happen at times  in all trades/professions. It is, as always, up to the client/customer to carry out sufficient enquiry to know who they are dealing with, what qualifications (if any) they expect the person to have and proceed accordingly.


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## ubiquitous (15 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



Bank Manager said:


> what I do know is that the few I have encountered have by and large done their clients untold damage in terms of bad advice, whether in terms of tax advice, investment advice or succession planning advice.
> 
> Personally I believe if someone is selling themself as an 'accountant' they should have a qualification to back same up.



Would you apply the same logic to the many cases where bank managers have given dodgy "tax advice" and "investment advice" to their clients, without having either the qualifications or expertise to do so competently?


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## Bank Manager (15 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



ubiquitous said:


> Would you apply the same logic to the many cases where bank managers have given dodgy "tax advice" and "investment advice" to their clients, without having either the qualifications or expertise to do so competently?



I'm not aware of any (many) cases you refer to.  But if they did give advice when they were not quailified to do so, then yes, they should be held accountable - and therein lies the hub of my original point: if one gets questionable advice from a qualified (accountant, using the original example), then as least there is some comeback to the representatitive body/umbrella orgainisation - whereas if someone is doing this without a quailification, there often is little/no comeback.

regards,

BM


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## Padraigb (15 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



Graham_07 said:


> I have seen excellent work done by unqualified accountants and equally appalling work done by members of recognised accountancy bodies.



Same here.



> It is, as always, up to the client/customer to carry out sufficient enquiry to know who they are dealing with, what qualifications (if any) they expect the person to have and proceed accordingly.



That is easier said than done. For many people, accountancy is an arcane thing, more mysterious than the protocols of freemasonry or the philology of Sanskrit. People can be intimidated by their accountants.

I am not sure what is the best approach to take, but it seems to me that an open market with a buyer beware warning might not be sufficient.


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## Graham_07 (16 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



Padraigb said:


> accountancy is an arcane thing, more mysterious than the protocols of freemasonry or the philology of Sanskrit.


 
 I love it.


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## Graham_07 (16 Dec 2008)

*Re: Is there a Law to stop people claiming to be qualified tradesmen when they are no*



ubiquitous said:


> Would you apply the same logic to the many cases where bank managers have given dodgy "tax advice"


 


Bank Manager said:


> I'm not aware of any (many) cases you refer to.


 
I'd say the Bogus Non-Resident Accounts issue would comprise quite a few thousand cases for starters.


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## ubiquitous (16 Dec 2008)

*Re: False advertising*



Padraigb said:


> I am not sure what is the best approach to take, but it seems to me that an open market with a buyer beware warning might not be sufficient.



Its a bit odd to find myself, as an trained, educated, accredited, regulated and insured professional, arguing _against_ the creation of a closed shop in my industry


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