# Easy money or con - Elearnexpress.com



## Brendan1 (5 Mar 2003)

Hi, 
I am delighted to find such a usefull irish based web site,
congratulations to all involved.
My question involves a new company that i have come aware of today which claimes to be able to provide me with an education in a course of my choice from their list for a small payment which will of course be paid back to me in full after a short period, all i have to do is sell this to as many people as possible although they claim to be able to pay back even if i dont sell courses for them.

Of course this sounds to good to be true but i would like to here other opinions.

:$ 

_Title edited by RainyDay_


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## Marion (5 Mar 2003)

*Re: Easy money or con*

Hi Brendan1

Welcome to AAM. If it sounds too good to be true, it more than likely is!

Read the small print carefully!

Marion :hat


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## rainyday (5 Mar 2003)

*Re: Easy money or con*

It's pyramid selling (which I understand is illegal).


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## Brendan1 (6 Mar 2003)

*Re: Easy money or con*

Hi Rainyday,
These people have had a recent public meeting at athlone and have a base office in northern Ireland which seems to suggest that they are on the level.

:rollin


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## ClubMan (6 Mar 2003)

*Re: Easy money or con*

Can you post the name of the company in question?


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (7 Mar 2003)

*.*

Consider how these people are making money out of this venture. They will make money!

In effect, you are becoming a sales person for them. As rainyday suggests above, it's pyramid selling.

If you want to do a course, try the open university.


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## Brendan1 (7 Mar 2003)

*Re: .*

Hi again,
The companys name is ElearnExpress i had not mentioned it before so to avoid advertising for them.

Have a look for yourselves.
This link will find their site.

www.elearnexpress.com/term.htm#

                                  :shamrock


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## rainyday (7 Mar 2003)

*The Pharohs might like it*

Yep - It' has all the hallmarks of a classic pyramid selling operation. The company address doesn't exactly appear to be a major office block "30 Derrylettif Road, Portadown", more likely some guys back bedroom in a rented house! The  doesn't show any named individuals. The sales model is clearly pyramidical in shape. They state that "company is a verified International account holder with
Pay-Pal ( E-Bay) who has over 20 million customers worldwide and holds over 50 Million Dollars in funds at all times." EBay & Pay-pal are not the same company! Registering with Pay-Pal takes about five minutes + a delay for your next credit card statement - not exactly a rigourous verification process. I can't see any relevance of the number of customers or value of funds at Pay-Pal to this operation.

They tell us that the 'marketing plas has been designed by one of the world's top Mathematicians from Europe' as if this is supposed to reassure us. Anyone who has spent more than 3 months in any real business would know that Marketeers write marketing plans, not mathematicians. The idea of a marketing plan written by mathematicians is quite terrifying.

Handle with care.

Oooh I feel all dirty now just having looked at their website. Must run a virus checker now.


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## Brendan1 (8 Mar 2003)

*Re: The Pharohs might like it*

Thanks all for your comments especially rainyday for the time taken to check out the company.
 It has helped me to understand the nature of these get rich  schemes that can look so good at a meeting or on a glossy web site.
I hope this post will help others who come across such,to think twice before diving in, in the hope of handy money.

rainyday i hope you destroyed all evidence that you were lurking around on such a web site.

Thanks again.
Brendan


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## andy (16 Apr 2003)

*elearnexpress*

This is for real, it is not pyramid selling you do get your money back plus 35 dollars for doing nothing!! due to people joining both for the marketing plan and the product. The product elearning is one of the big futures of the internet whether you buy into this or not.  If you want to earn more than your money back, get three people you want to learn or want to earn.  These 3 have to do nothing further for you to earn more!!.  It's built on incentive.  Everything new gets mocked and told it won't work but in spite of prejudice I believe this is the future both in terms of marketing a product and earning a living in the western world as traditional industry is migrating east.  Technology is here to stay so keep your minds open!!!


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## ClubMan (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Whatever else about it, it *is* a pyramid selling scheme as explained on their own site - see . Anybody with any cop on will steer clear of such schemes notwithstanding the possibility of early adopters making some money before the scheme yields to the inevitability of statistics and comes crumbling down (e.g. Women Empowering Women, Albanian pyramid savings scheme and many other schemes throughout the years).


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## Liam D Ferguson (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

*"If you want to earn more than your money back, get three people you want to learn or want to earn. These 3 have to do nothing further for you to earn more!!."*

Yeah yeah heard it all before.  And these three don't have to do anything to get their money back but get three more.  Guess what Einstein?  After a while, you run out of people wanting to prop up the bottom and the scheme collapses.  But of course those at or near the top of the pyramid scam don't care about those near the bottom because they've got their money.  

*"Everything new gets mocked"*

If you think this is new, you obviously haven't done any research.  Charles Ponzi set up a similar scam in the 1920s.  He may or may not have invented the idea.  The "product" is different, the scam is the same.  

*"Technology is here to stay so keep your minds open"*

Of course technology is here to stay, but unfortunately so it seems are con artists wanting to use a legitimate front (such as e-learning) for an old con.


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## Andy (16 Apr 2003)

*reply*

liam,
   I don't really like the Einstein jibe i am just trying to argue the other side, i don't claim to be einstein

1. This is a product where there is a huge market, its consumable ie. you have to resubscribe every year. So if you're the last guy in and you think you've lost your investment of 340 dollars as no new people but everybody has to resubscribe and these people come in behind you.

Affliate marketing is one of the most ethical ways of doing business, you get out what you put in, if you want to sign up 100 you get rewarded for that, if you want to sign up 5 for you get 20 times less fair enough.  If you don't want to sign up anybody you get your product. Did any of you look at this product?  At the moment I am doing my ECDL and I find it class?

Most people live their lives in a pyramid, working 40 hrs a week for 40 years to make someone above them money and they accept this, which is their choice.

In this case it's 340 dollars you have to part with and the potential returns are enormous, if you don't want to join fair enough but enough of the negativity and latent anger its not good for the soul!!

Andy


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## rainyday (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: reply*

Hi Andy - I guess part of Liam's frustration arises from the fact that we had plenty of posters extolling the virtues of the 'Women empowering Women' scheme here on AAM last year - until, of course, the pyramid collapsed and people lost money.

The fundamental nature of this scheme is pyramid marketing - It is going to collapse - It's a matter of 'when', not 'if'.

You just might manage to make money if your timing is right - but more people will lose money than will make money.


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## ClubMan (16 Apr 2003)

*Re: reply*

Yes - by all means go ahead yourself if you want but please don't use AAM as a platform for proselytising for such schemes - or if you do don't expect people not to point out the obvious flaws inherent in such schemes. Just to reiterate (as seems necessary when it comes to schemes such as this) I personally would advise people to steer well clear of this sort of thing - and I'm not alone in that view.


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## andy (16 Apr 2003)

*reply*

no problem, just stumbled on here by accident, good site will come back!!


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## Elearner (18 Apr 2003)

*Re: reply*

Andy is spot on.  The rest of ye make me laugh.  Elearnexpress is easily the best investment anyone could ever make.  

Too good to be true – I don’t think so.  Tell me this – is every business that does affiliate marketing a pyramid scheme?  If that’s the case, there’s thousands of businesses worldwide marketing illegally.  What about the likes of Kleeneze, Cinergi etc?  Similar style of marketing to Elearnexpress and all are perfectly legal and ethical.  

And Andy is perfectly correct in stating that most people work in a pyramid structure  – the irony of it all!  

Will it collapse?   Pyramids will but Elearnexpress won’t.  Maybe when the world is hit by a giant asteroid!


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## ClubMan (18 Apr 2003)

*Re: reply*

Yeah, yeah ... whatever... :rolleyes


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## Liam D Ferguson (19 Apr 2003)

Andy - I have found that enthusiastic supporters of pyramid schemes fall into two categories - (1) those who haven't understood the concept that people further up the pyramid make money, but people who are at the bottom when it collapses lose money and (2) those who do understand the concept and want to make money without caring that lots of people further down will lose money when the pyramid collapses.  

If you don't fall into category (2), then I apologise for the Einstein jibe.  

To yourself and Elearner - there's a huge difference in structure between an affiliate program and a pyramid scheme.  

Also - working as an employee does not mean you're in a pyramid.  If I employ 10 people, with 5 sales staff and 5 administrators, this is not a pyramid.  It only becomes a pyramid if I start to make my sales staff's income conditional on them recruiting more sales staff.


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## rainyday (24 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Liam, an employee works in a pyramid structure where his efforts are rewarding those at the top.  And this applies to virtually every company and organisation.  

Despite what ye think, Elearnexpress is an affiliate programme, not a pyramid scheme.  

And if you want to know more about this fantastic company – there is a conference on in the _ [Advert removed by RainyDay] _  People are flying in from Australia, USA and Europe to be at this.   Will be great to see all ye sceptics there!


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## XXXAnother PersonXXX (24 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Rainyday - maybe you should just remove the whole thread - aren't pyramid schemes illegal? (and unethical)

The thing keeps getting bumped.


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## rainyday (24 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Hi AP - In general, we take a view that logical arguement is far more effective than censorship on matters like this.


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## Tommy (25 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Yes XXXAnother PersonXXX,  you’re right.   Pyramid schemes are illegal and unethical.  

But all you negative guys are afraid to know the truth.  Straight away, you accuse Elearnexpress of being a pyramid scheme without any proof.  There are two sides to every story remember, and I know who is right.  

Rainyday, maybe you should take a trip up to *********** to check out  “some guys back bedroom in a rented house”. 

(reference deleted to specific and unverified postal address)


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## ClubMan (25 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Which part of the following do you not understand!? - even the official elearnexpress documentation states that to participate/earn you have to recruit three more participants and that they have to do likewise, ad infinitum (or in this case ad nauseam! :\ ). That is the essence of a pyramid scheme! :rolleyes


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## Liam D Ferguson (25 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Hi ClubMan, 

I'm forming the opinion that Elearner understands only too well that this is a pyramid scheme, but wants to continue the debate in the vain hope that the scheme will get some publicity by continued debate on Askaboutmoney.


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## rainyday (25 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*



> But all you negative guys are afraid to know the truth. Straight away, you accuse Elearnexpress of being a pyramid scheme without any proof. There are two sides to every story remember, and I know who is right.



I'm getting that 'deja moo' feeling (i.e. I've heard all this bull before) - Ah yes - it was all those ladies who extolled the virtues of the Women Empowering Women scheme, just before the bubble burst. Funny how they're not still claiming it was a great idea?


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## christian (30 Apr 2003)

*elearnexpress*

elearnexpress is a very good scheme it is not a pyrimid far from it.i have recieved 75$ for signing up my three people and am nearly at the point where i get my money back + i go into classroom 2 now where i recieve 750$ for doing nothing.then i move to classroom 3 where i recieve 6000$ and i go back into the cycle again for free and start again.


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## rainyday (30 Apr 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Hi Christian - You seem to be contradicting yourself. You tell us that "it is not a pyrimid far from it" and then you go on to describe a perfect pyramid structure, i.e. "i have recieved 75$ for signing up my three people [...] i go into classroom 2 now where i recieve 750$ for doing nothing.then i move to classroom 3 where i recieve 6000$ "

This is how all pyramids work - This is what makes them all topple over - How many people need to be recruited for you to get your $6000?


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## christian (1 May 2003)

*elearnexpress*

your mad about pyramid schemes arent you.
maybe if you gave it a chance,tell me does any other pyramid scheme give you the chance to do 190 different courses plus give you your money back.yes the company gives you your money back.I myself am only starting to do courses through my computer eg.european driving licence the price of this one course is 200 euro.Why not learn and maybe earn a little on the way.


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## rainyday (1 May 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

So can we take that you haven't actually done the maths to work out the answer to my question, i.e. "How many people need to be recruited for you to get your $6000?"


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## Elearner (1 May 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Quote:

I'm forming the opinion that Elearner understands only too well that this is a pyramid scheme.

Liam, if I knew it was a pyramid scheme, I would have stayed well clear of it.  I know for a fact it’s not and if you can’t comprehend that, well that’s your problem.

Folks, I’m getting bored stating the fact that this is affiliate/network marketing company.  Elearnexpress is all about promoting and using an elearning package, but you don’t have to promote it if you don’t want to.  A student that joins now can earn more than one that joined a few months ago – suddenly the so called ‘pyramid’ is changing shape!  

And Rainyday, to compare the Women empowering Women scheme with this is a joke.  The answer to your badly worded question by the way is 3 sales of the product.  Have you not read the compensation plan?

Christian, you’re right - they’re all obsessed about pyramids.  They should be all sent to Egypt and locked up in one for good!


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## ClubMan (1 May 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

*Folks, I’m getting bored stating the fact that this is affiliate/network marketing company.*

Yes - and we're getting bored listening to you and others attempting to evangelise for this scheme at this stage. Note that some of the best known affiliate schemes (e.g. _Amway_ is probably the most (in)famous) *are* pyramid schemes. 

*The answer to your badly worded question by the way is 3 sales of the product. Have you not read the compensation plan?*

Three sales or seven "hearts" seems like much of a muchness to me - just a faster rate of collapse in the latter case.


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## rainyday (1 May 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*



> The answer to your badly worded question by the way is 3 sales of the product. Have you not read the compensation plan?



Hi Christian - Why don't you give the full answer & not the selectively misleading answer? Or let me rephrase the question - How many people have to join the pyramid in order for you to get your €6,000?


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## daltonr (1 May 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

Elearner, or Andy, or Christian, or whatever you're
calling yourself today.

You may not know that it's a pyramid scheme.  You may not know how such schemes work, but that doesn't change what it is.  Trust me, the people you are arguing with here are clever people, they know what they are talking about. They've seen all this before and they have probably received hundreds of "email flyers" as you call them promoting schemes exactly like this one.

Having looked at the website in question I can tell you for a fact that THEY ARE RIGHT.  It's a classic example of a pyramid scheme.  I've been looking at schemes like this and explaining them to people for about 6 years.

A quick search on the web for other pages about this scheme show's that it has all the hallmarks. The fact that there is a product involved doesn't make it something else.  It's a pyramid scheme.

*The answer to your badly worded question by the way is 3 sales of the product. Have you not read the compensation plan?*

Have you read it?  The product costs $340 and according to you three customers will be sufficient to pay christian €6000, plus pay each of these customers back a profit whether they decide to sell or not. Hmmmm.  
I'm beginning to see how you got taken in by this.  I suggest that if there is a Maths course available you take it.

I'm assuming the reason you think three customers will be enough is because you are depending on THEM to go and and each recruit 3, and so on.  I.E.  A PYRAMID SCHEME.

This is the same plan that was worked out by the renowned mathematician.  Who was that? can we have a name? what institution is this person attached to? If this is a new matematical formula that allows more to be paid out than is paid in then I'm sure there's a published paper explaining how it works.

:rollin 

Didn't think so.

Give us a break, we've heard it all before, and guess what the other schemes claimed: "This scheme is different".

I'd actually prefer if you'd just accept it's a gamble and huge numbers of people will lose money.  Then at least the argument could shift to the morality of it, rather than wasting time explaining primary school maths to you.

Perhaps you might be willing to provide evidence that it
works.  We could get an independant person to certify that
€6000 euro was paid to you and dozens of other people.
I'm sure you are all paying tax on the earnings, so it shouldn't
be difficult to prove it to us.  Have there been any lodgements
of €6000 to your account recently, or when are you expecting
one?

I'll gladly pay the fee to have your local bank write a letter
confirming that such lodgements were made.

-Rd


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## darag (2 May 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

daltonr, you bring up an interesting point.  Are pyramid
schemes like this one illegal in Ireland?  I know that
there are very strong laws against them in the US and I
have a vague idea that there are laws against them in
the UK.

If such schemes are not illegal, they certainly would
seem to be immoral.  However, there is a fundamental
difficulty in judging proponents of such schemes;  are
they being cynical or stupid?  Given the wealth of
information on the internet and the constant stream of
advice against joining such schemes, I have surprisingly
little sympathy for the latter.  Of course I have even
less regard for the former.

How about setting up an askaboutmoney pyramid scheme?
The reward for joining could be something like access to
a new restricted forum (perhaps offering valuable stock
tips).  Any proponents of such schemes could be directed
to consider the askaboutmoney one.  All that is needed
is some slick web page.  Of course all proceeds would
go to charity.


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## ClubMan (2 May 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

*perhaps offering valuable stock tips.*

You _are_ joking aren't you?


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## darag (2 May 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

ok it might have been a bit too droll.
I refuse to use those smiley things.


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## ClubMan (2 May 2003)

*Re: elearnexpress*

*ok it might have been a bit too droll.*

Phew!

*I refuse to use those smiley things.*

Ah g'wan - even _Brendan_ has been known to use them (well once anyway...).


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## daltonr (2 May 2003)

*Re: ElearnExpress*



> Are pyramid schemes like this one illegal in Ireland?



This relates to Northern Ireland. [broken link removed]
scam from a while back.  



> Pyramid selling is not illegal. There is legislation which controls pyramid selling relating to goods being sold, however as the " Money Tree" involves the passing on of cash as gifts it is outside the legislation at present.



What's interesting here is that the legislation would 
cover ElearnExpress since there is a product.  Also
ElearnExpress appears to have A base in Northen Ireland.

Closer to home a bill to prohibit the inducing of persons to participate in certain multi-level or pyramid schemes

I don't know if it ever passed into law.  It wouldn't 
surprise me if it's still sitting on a shelf.

In 2001, on November 22nd to be exact (RIP JFK)
The Indo said:



> Tanaiste asks AG to probe legal status of pyramid 'gift schemes'



So presumably she wasnt sure about the bill either.

-Rd


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## Liam D Ferguson (2 May 2003)

*Re: ElearnExpress*

*"Liam, if I knew it was a pyramid scheme, I would have stayed well clear of it. I know for a fact it’s not and if you can’t comprehend that, well that’s your problem."*

Well, Elearner, if you read the following paragraph and still believe that it's not a pyramid, it's not me who has a problem.      

*"...i have recieved 75$ for signing up my three people and am nearly at the point where i get my money back + i go into classroom 2 now where i recieve 750$ for doing nothing.then i move to classroom 3 where i recieve 6000$ and i go back into the cycle again for free and start again."*

Call it an affiliate scheme, call it marketing, call it a miracle, call it new mathematics, call it Barbara for all I care, the above is a text-book pyramid scheme, and those who try to paint it otherwise either don't understand it or do understand it and are trying to promote it for personal gain before it collapses, as of course it will.


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## jem (2 May 2003)

*Re: ElearnExpress*

Lads,  Elearner knows exactly that the seceme(sc#m) is a pyramid scheme. He/she is just trying to draw out the tread in the hope that some sucker will join up that reads the board.
HE is using a number of names to drag on the tread.
I would sugest that tis tread is locked  ending with the coment
"don't feed the trolls"


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## Elearner (2 May 2003)

*Re: ElearnExpress*

Can you so called experts, tell me if ALL Network Marketing companies are pyramid schemes?


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## ClubMan (2 May 2003)

*Re: ElearnExpress*

It depends on your definition of "network marketing". If you provide one I'll give you my opinion. Whatever about that, at this stage are you willing to accept that elearnexpress in particular is a pyramid scheme?


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## daltonr (2 May 2003)

*Re: ElearnExpress*

Elearner,

There are 3 basic types of Network marketing.

1 - Commission or Affiliate Marketing.
A company wishes to sell a product, it finds
people prepared to sell that product on it's behalf,
usually the seller can charge the same as the main company
put keep a percentage of the fee paid from each customer.

2 - Suggest a Friend
I think this was used by SKY recently.  Basically you buy a 
service.  You suggest it to a friend, the friend buys the
service, and the company sends you a token of their 
appreciation usually about €10 to €50

3 - Multi Level Marketing (MLM) or Pyramid Schemes
In this style of marketing you are not trying to recruit
customers for a company, you are trying to recruit more
sellers.  The incentive is that you make a percentage of
the income generated by the sellers you recruit.

So, if you recruit 1 person you make the immiediate return
from them buying the product (or paying into the scheme),
and you then make a smaller percentage of the money paid
in by people they recruit. (You are dependant on them recruiting someone).

The problem with this scheme is that for people to earn
money, more investors need to be found.  And If those 
investors don't bother or can't recruit still more people you WON'T earn the kind of money promised. 

ElearnExpress is well and truly the third type of scheme.

Is it legal? - the law is grey I can never get a straight
answer that isn't contradicted by another answer.

Is it moral? - I don't really care, people are free to sin
in my opinion, as long as they stick within the laws of
the land.  But I reserve the right to explain to people that
they are being sinned against, even if it is strictly legal.

Will it work? - The very early members of these schemes
can sometimes make money.  But you can make money
from selling Buckingham Palace to tourists.  It doesn't
mean it's right.

-Rd


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## Brendan1 (7 May 2003)

*Re: ElearnExpress*

*Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But all you negative guys are afraid to know the truth. Straight away, you accuse Elearnexpress of being a pyramid scheme without any proof. There are two sides to every story remember, and I know who is right. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Give a little credit to the Administrator and Moderators on this forum.


surely pyramids were only for the egyptians who flew through a stargate in their space ships and needed a place to rest and have never been used for anything else since.


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## christian (8 May 2003)

*elearnexpress*

Brendan are you a company employee or just a joe soap like me that bought into elearnexpress.how far have you gone in the classroom proceedure.just like to know if it has worked for you.I joined for the courses to be quite hosest.The main reason i got three poeple was because a few friends from work bought the courses,and didnt even ask about getting there money back when i told them they would,they said if it happens it happnens. If i get my money back and the cash ensentive ill be well happy.Just like to know what you think.


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## happy (8 May 2003)

*...*

how do you learn on the course. Is the information just provided for you to print off?


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## ClubMan (8 May 2003)

*Re: ...*

Lads - if you want to discuss the fine points of elearnexpress, as opposed to the more abstract issues of whether or not it's a scam, could you do so offline (e.g. by direct email) please? I'm sure that much of this is explained on their website. I'm also sure that there's an "affiliate" who'd love to sign you up. :\  Anyway, I'm closing this topic now.


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