# Do we need a new political party to represent responsible people?



## Brendan Burgess (11 Feb 2020)

I was appalled by the last government's reckless financial management.  With the economy booming, artificially high corporation tax takes, low unemployment, we just about managed to balance the government's books. We made no progress on reducing government debt.  They have committed to wasting billions on rural broadband when we will need those people to build houses.   And they introduced rent controls when they knew that would reduce the supply of rental accommodation. They made an unsustainable pension system worse by extending it to self-employed people who contribute 4% a year in PRSI. 

But Fianna Fáil wouldn't have been any more responsible. They insisted on higher pension payments when the pensions system is already unsustainable.

So we ended up with an election characterised by auction politics. And Sinn Féin won the auction by outbidding the others with borrowed money.

I would like to vote for a party which says

We will cut taxes for people who work and cut social welfare for people who don't.
We will  convert the prsi paid by people and their employers into an account in their own name. Their retirement date and amount of pension will be determined by how much they have in their pension fund. People who have depended on social welfare their whole life will no longer get the same pensions and benefits in retirement as people who have worked all their life.
Convert all public sector and politicians' pensions to generous defined contribution schemes
We will prioritise low paid workers in the allocation of social housing.  People who are not working will be allocated social housing wherever in the country it is cheapest to buy or build
If people are not working, we will not give them rent assistance to live in a Rent Pressure Zone. We will only help them outside the high demand areas. This will bring down rents for everyone.
The 10,000 people living on their own in 2,3 and 4 bed social houses will be asked to share with others or else vacate them.
We will help people who want to provide their own housing rather than penalising them. We will abolish VAT, development levies and social housing requirements on starter homes.  We will allow people to borrow the deposit for their first home from their pension fund.
Instead of spending €450k to buy a privately built house for social housing, we will sell off high value social housing to the highest bidder and use the proceeds to build more social housing wherever it is cheapest.
We will help people who are having difficulty with their mortgage payments who are making a serious effort to pay, but we will speed up the repossession of for those borrowers who are paying nothing and making no effort.
We will stop demonising good landlords.  Phase out rent controls as rents will fall when the state stops paying rent in RPZs for people who are not working. Limit the RTB to resolving disputes, but scrap all the other bureaucracy such as registering tenancies.  Help tenants who have difficulty paying their rent, but evict tenants who make no effort.
We admit that it's very difficult for the public service to run a good hospital system. And throwing public money at it hasn't worked.
We will charge people for healthcare in a public hospital.
We will encourage people who can afford it to pay for their own private healthcare and we won't demonise them for doing so.
People who can afford to do so, should pay in full for their own carers and their own nursing homes.
Take a big knife to cutting out whole departments and bodies which do nothing except
Give the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council or the Central Bank the authority to set the overall budget policy - a budget deficit or budget surplus as they deem appropriate.  The government would set its own tax and spending decisions within those limits.


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## Eireog007 (11 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I was appalled by the last government's reckless financial management.  With the economy booming, artificially high corporation tax takes, low unemployment, we just about managed to balance the government's books. We made no progress on reducing government debt.  They have committed to wasting billions on rural broadband when we will need those people to build houses.   And they introduced rent controls when they knew that would reduce the supply of rental accommodation.
> 
> But Fianna Fáil wouldn't have been any more responsible. They insisted on higher pension payments when the pensions system is already unsustainable.
> 
> ...



I don’t fully agree with your healthcare policies but in relation to everything else sign me up.


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## zephyro (11 Feb 2020)

Would also like to vote for such a party @Brendan Burgess but don't see how it would get any more than a tiny number of votes, it seems very clear from a review of Irish politics over the last 20 years that the vast majority of the electorate here consists of very irresponsible people. The politicians are only doing and saying what they feel (almost certainly correctly) the majority of their potential voters want after all.

As someone with a public profile though, how would you feel about being one of the co-founders of this new party?


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## Sophrosyne (11 Feb 2020)

zephyro said:


> it seems very clear from a review of Irish politics over the last 20 years that the vast majority of the electorate here consists of very irresponsible people.



If that were the case, then a party for "responsible people" would be rather a dead duck.


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## EmmDee (11 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I was appalled by the last government's reckless financial management.  With the economy booming, artificially high corporation tax takes, low unemployment, we just about managed to balance the government's books. We made no progress on reducing government debt.  They have committed to wasting billions on rural broadband when we will need those people to build houses.   And they introduced rent controls when they knew that would reduce the supply of rental accommodation.
> 
> But Fianna Fáil wouldn't have been any more responsible. They insisted on higher pension payments when the pensions system is already unsustainable.
> 
> ...



Maybe call it something catchy... Show how forward thinking it was and differentiate it from populists like the Shimmers... "Progressive Democrats" maybe?


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## Sunny (11 Feb 2020)

New parties are near impossible to set up. Would be better if one of the main parties copped themselves on. The one thing I hate is all this talk about right and left wing politics. It doesn't exist in Ireland. We have some of the highest social transfers in the developed world and from listening to people, it sounds like we have been run by right wing fascist nuts since the foundation of the State.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Feb 2020)

Sunny said:


> New parties are near impossible to set up. Would be better if one of the main parties copped themselves on.



Very good point.   The gap in the market for responsible economic management is empty. Fine Gael should fill it. But they are just as irresponsible as the rest.

I would like to see a new party set up by non-politicians so that they would not fall into the parish pump politics and populism forced on TDs.

TDs should be national legislators and not social welfare and housing consultants.

But the difficulty in setting up a new party should not stop people from trying. 

Brendan


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## odyssey06 (11 Feb 2020)

I hope that this drubbing for FG and if big spenders get in like SF might get FG to cop on that their 'natural audience' is responsible economic management. You've never going to outbid SF so don't get into half hearted auction politics.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Feb 2020)

EmmDee said:


> "Progressive Democrats" maybe?



The PDs showed that there was a market for responsible economic management. 

But they also showed that it was very difficult to sustain it. 

Brendan


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## WolfeTone (11 Feb 2020)

EmmDee said:


> Maybe call it something catchy



Renua Renewed? 

Sorry, thats awful. 

Unfortunately, the first problem would be to counter the variance of opinion in the electorate that applies different slants to the definition of the word 'responsible'

So from my perspective, perhaps unsurprisingly, the list of points above range mostly in the irresponsible to unconstitutional category.

As mentioned by another poster, only likely to get a tiny number of votes.


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## Firefly (11 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I would like to see a new party set up by non-politicians so that they would not fall into the parish pump politics and populism forced on TDs.


How about setting up a Policies Commission made up of economists, sociologist and policy experts. Any promises / ideas by politicians would have to be analysed and rubber-stamped by this commission before being presented to the people for consideration...


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## Firefly (11 Feb 2020)

Brendan,

I agree with most of your proposals. If we were setting up a new country from scratch I think these would be good ideas, however people have just become too accustomed to getting other people to pay for things that they currently have. There would be uproar trying to implement most of these things....the level of dependency is just too deep rooted.


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## elacsaplau (11 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The PDs showed that there was a market for responsible economic management.



Weren't dem de boys in coalition with FF from 1997 to 2009? Is it even possible for an economy to have been managed worse than during that period?


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## Deiseblue (11 Feb 2020)

Do you intend to start such a party Brendan ?
After all you're a non politician who presumably would not fall into the traps of populism and localised politics and despite the difficulties inherent in starting a new party you feel this option should be pursued.
Or are you happy to leave the difficulty of starting a new political party to others who may not follow the entirety of your agenda ?


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## joe sod (11 Feb 2020)

Wasn't Renua that party formed by lucinda creighton, I think anything like that is doomed to failure in this current wave of populism which has been building for a good few years now. I think it is necessary for that wave to peak and then crash before it will be popular enough. In any case FF and FG will go back to that territory anyway, already it looks like they are preparing for that by letting SF have the reigns of power now.


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## Duke of Marmalade (11 Feb 2020)

_Boss _does your resettlement of the poorer classes to the nether regions not smack of ethnic cleansing?


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## Purple (11 Feb 2020)

Renewa was a socially conservative party. There's no real appetite for that.
As long as the mechanisms of the State fail to deliver critical services efficiently we will have  strong support for far left or far right parties. SF's success is a failure of the centre. 

I would certainly vote for a socially progressive and economically competent party but history has shown that the electorate punishes economically responsible parties and rewards auction politics.


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## Sunny (11 Feb 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Boss _does your resettlement of the poorer classes to the nether regions not smack of ethnic cleansing?



We will call it in decentralisation on the brochure though! Ethnic Cleansing apparently doesn't play well in the polls. Snowflake generation and all...

At the very least we should be looking to legislate a debt brake like in Germany. Politicians have proven they are likes kids in a sweet shop so lets remove the temptation away from them....


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## Purple (11 Feb 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Boss _does your resettlement of the poorer classes to the nether regions not smack of ethnic cleansing?


Yep, in the longer term we'd get more socially marginalised ghettos. I'm not a fan of that idea.
I'd also pump money into education and while charging rich people much higher fees to send their kids to 3rd level I'd also pay people from socially deprived backgrounds to go to 3rd level. Maybe full fees plus €150 a week on top of their welfare. I'd also have free childcare for those with kids attending 3rd level. Education treats the root cause of poverty, welfare treats the symptoms.


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## john luc (11 Feb 2020)

Would changing the prsi/universal tax into a personnel health plan be a way to go. Then encourage the hospitals to moved to a business type model and so allow the customer a choice using their personnel health plan.


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## Firefly (11 Feb 2020)

Sunny said:


> At the very least we should be looking to legislate a debt brake like in Germany. Politicians have proven they are likes kids in a sweet shop so lets remove the temptation away from them....


Just on this....do the EU rules on borrowing still apply? I think these were/are a godsend to be honest..


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## odyssey06 (11 Feb 2020)

And that we have the Euro... if we had our own currency the capital outflows triggered from Sinn Fein's wealth task would be sending it plunging downwards.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Feb 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Boss _does your resettlement of the poorer classes to the nether regions not smack of ethnic cleansing?



At the moment, a working young couple in their mid twenties who want to buy a house, will make huge sacrifices. They will save up hard. They might even live with their parents to save rent. They will defer having a child until they have bought a house. And they will probably buy the house in Dundalk or Gorey if they are working in Dublin.  When they buy the house, they will pay VAT, a development levy and a social housing levy so that people who don't pay their own way can be housed. 

On the other hand someone who depends on social welfare will declare themselves homeless and demand to be housed in their own community. 

We need to reverse this. We need to say to people that if you want social housing, it will be close to where you work or if you are not working it will be commuting distance away. And if you get work in the future, you will qualify for housing close to where you work. 

So it's not ethnic cleansing.  It's reversing the negative incentives we have at the moment. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Feb 2020)

john luc said:


> Would changing the prsi/universal tax into a personnel health plan be a way to go.



Yes.  I summarised it by saying all PRSI should go into a pension fund in the person's name. 

But put all PRSI and maybe USC into a pension fund. Then you pay for all the "social welfare" stuff out of that.  Health, Jobseekers, pensions, nursing home. 

A very big advantage of this is that we would all suddenly realise how expensive all this is.

We complain about paying high taxes. But over our lifetime , they are very low for low earners and middle income earners as the benefits they get surpass them.


Brendan


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## odyssey06 (11 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> At the moment, a working young couple in their mid twenties who want to buy a house, will make huge sacrifices. They will save up hard. They might even live with their parents to save rent. They will defer having a child until they have bought a house. And they will probably buy the house in Dundalk or Gorey if they are working in Dublin.  When they buy the house, they will pay VAT, a development levy and a social housing levy so that people who don't pay their own way can be housed.
> On the other hand someone who depends on social welfare will declare themselves homeless and demand to be housed in their own community.
> We need to reverse this. We need to say to people that if you want social housing, it will be close to where you work or if you are not working it will be commuting distance away. And if you get work in the future, you will qualify for housing close to where you work.
> So it's not ethnic cleansing.  It's reversing the negative incentives we have at the moment.



And, if you care about that kind of thing, place huge strain on our public transport system or clog up the roads with traffic and our carbon budget with emissions.
It's slow societal suicide. The people who are putting their shoulder to the wheel need a breather too.


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## Purple (11 Feb 2020)

House prices in Dublin are falling, rents are not increasing and housing completions are up 18% on last year. The excellent work done by the housing minister is paying off.


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## Leper (11 Feb 2020)

We will cut taxes for people who work and cut social welfare for people who don't.
We will convert the prsi paid by people and their employers into an account in their own name. Their retirement date and amount of pension will be determined by how much they have in their pension fund. People who have depended on social welfare their whole life will no longer get the same pensions and benefits in retirement as people who have worked all their life.
Convert all public sector and politicians' pensions to generous defined contribution schemes
We will prioritise low paid workers in the allocation of social housing. People who are not working will be allocated social housing wherever in the country it is cheapest to buy or build
If people are not working, we will not give them rent assistance to live in a Rent Pressure Zone. We will only help them outside the high demand areas. This will bring down rents for everyone.
The 10,000 people living on their own in 2,3 and 4 bed social houses will be asked to share with others or else vacate them.
We will help people who want to provide their own housing rather than penalising them. We will abolish VAT, development levies and social housing requirements on starter homes. We will allow people to borrow the deposit for their first home from their pension fund.
Instead of spending €450k to buy a privately built house for social housing, we will sell off high value social housing to the highest bidder and use the proceeds to build more social housing wherever it is cheapest.
We will help people who are having difficulty with their mortgage payments who are making a serious effort to pay, but we will speed up the repossession of for those borrowers who are paying nothing and making no effort.
We will stop demonising good landlords. Phase out rent controls as rents will fall when the state stops paying rent in RPZs for people who are not working. Limit the RTB to resolving disputes, but scrap all the other bureaucracy such as registering tenancies. Help tenants who have difficulty paying their rent, but evict tenants who make no effort.
We admit that it's very difficult for the public service to run a good hospital system. And throwing public money at it hasn't worked.
We will charge people for healthcare in a public hospital.
We will encourage people who can afford it to pay for their own private healthcare and we won't demonise them for doing so.
People who can afford to do so, should pay in full for their own carers and their own nursing homes.
Take a big knife to cutting out whole departments and bodies which do nothing except
Give the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council or the Central Bank the authority to set the overall budget policy - a budget deficit or budget surplus as they deem appropriate. The government would set its own tax and spending decisions within those limits.
Above was the opinion supplied by the Founder of this Forum.
1. How much taxes will you cut for people who work? How much Social Welfare award would you cut? What other Social Welfare awards would you cut?
2. What are the logistics of converting PRSI paid by employees and their employers into the name of each employee? Then you are going to dictate the date of retirement of each person. At what age do you see people retiring?
3. You want to convert all public sector and politicians' pension to generous defined contribution schemes. What amount do you suggest each pays?
4. You are going to export people who are not working to wherever you seem fit. Do you think this is doable?
5. You are going to refuse to give rent assistance to those unemployed who wish to live in Rent Pressure Zones. But, you will give rent assistance to those living outside of Rent Pressure Zones. I can't believe you posted this.
6. So, I'm living alone in the house I paid for over the years and you want me to be forced to accept people into my home of which I know nothing and of which I don't want.
7. So people buying their own homes will not have to pay VAT etc and their own pension fund will help pay for the property? Hmmmmm!
8. You're going to sell off existing social housing to the highest bidder and use the proceeds to build more houses where land etc can be purchased cheaper.
9.Please expand on how you will help those in difficulty in paying their mortgages. But, you're going to speed up repossessions too. Hmmmm!
10. Who ever demonised good landlords? You're going to phase out Rent Controls. And you say renting amounts will fall. You're going to cease registering tenancies.  Hmmmmm! Then you'll evict some tenants - What criteria will you introduce for this?
11. What are you actually going to do regarding funding the Health Service?
12. How much will you charge people using public hospitals?
13. Most who can afford private healthcare already pay for it. How much more do you want them to pay and for what?
14. If people cannot to pay will you refuse them use of a Nursing Home or even the aid of carers?
15.Take a big knife . . . .  Please amplify as you're losing my understanding.
16. You are going to give the authority to run the country over to the Central Bank. Wonderful! Do you trust the banks?

How long do you think this Responsible Political Party will last? Has any of this been tried elsewhere? Do you envisage the formation of official death squads eventually?


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## Delboy (11 Feb 2020)

I'd agree with about 80% of the manifesto...there's 1 or 2 things n there that would hit me personally so I'm a No to them 
I'd be very weary of moving all those on the dole and who are looking for housing to the area where it cheapest. Leitrim would be a no go zone!

I'd add in something on children's allowance. Payable only for the first 2 children with tax credits awarded for the 3rd child and up.
Also, would greatly increase time off for Mothers and paternity leave. We should be encouraging and rewarding those in work who decide to have kids.
I've seen too many friends leave it too late to have kids because of high housing and childcare costs and they've ended up having only 1 or sometimes 2 kids.


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## losttheplot (11 Feb 2020)

Could we not just abandon the whole government thing and self rule business, bring the IMF back to sort it out.


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## josh8267 (11 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I was appalled by the last government's reckless financial management.  With the economy booming, artificially high corporation tax takes, low unemployment, we just about managed to balance the government's books. We made no progress on reducing government debt.  They have committed to wasting billions on rural broadband when we will need those people to build houses.   And they introduced rent controls when they knew that would reduce the supply of rental accommodation. They made an unsustainable pension system worse by extending it to self-employed people who contribute 4% a year in PRSI.
> 
> But Fianna Fáil wouldn't have been any more responsible. They insisted on higher pension payments when the pensions system is already unsustainable.
> 
> ...


The above party policy has the DNA of FF/FG/LAB  not a word about fairness ,
Can you imagine what the coronavirus would do if it got a hold in Ireland at present ,We would finish up having to borrow to pay illness benefit within a very short time, income tax/prsi/usc would drop straight away social security payments would rise ,
there is scope at present to future fund  a downturn or Coronavirus type emergancy,

Nowhere in the above list is a proper thought out plan at address and fund how Working people are going to pay Mortgages rents if for any unforeseen reason large amounts are unemployed at the same time, Banks will go belly up ,business will go belly up, Government borrowing will go through the roof, pushing up mortgages Interest  on anyone lucky enough to be in a position not to default on mortgage/rent,

Sounds like the present FF/FG/LAB parties do we really want another party who set out to avoid and put off addressing the above problem,


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Feb 2020)

Sunny said:


> At the very least we should be looking to legislate a debt brake like in Germany. Politicians have proven they are likes kids in a sweet shop so lets remove the temptation away from them....





losttheplot said:


> bring the IMF back to sort it out.



You are right in saying that we need to take the decisions on fiscal policy out of the hands of politicians. They always behave pro-cyclically and make the problem worse.

The problem with a debt brake is that we need a counter cyclical policy.  It is often right to run a deficit and it is often right to run a surplus.

So give the Central Bank or the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council control of Fiscal Policy.  It would be a bit like the Troika.  This is how much the deficit or surplus will be - now you decide yourselves how much to raise in taxes and where you are going to spend the money.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Feb 2020)

Sunny said:


> The one thing I hate is all this talk about right and left wing politics. It doesn't exist in Ireland. We have some of the highest social transfers in the developed world and from listening to people, it sounds like we have been run by right wing fascist nuts since the foundation of the State.



Absolutely. Recent so-called right wing governments, taxed pension funds, introduced a property tax for owners of property but not social housing, and introduced rent controls.   And more importantly, they have borrowed €170 billion over the last 12 years or so to fund very high levels of public services and very high levels of social welfare.

I would like to see a political party promoting responsible long-term policies rather than populist short-term policies.  I would support a responsible left wing party which aimed to cut borrowing before I would support a populist "right-wing" government.

I agree that it would be a very difficult sell.  Telling people who are used to high levels of social welfare and services that we will not be able to afford them in the long-term.  Competing with all the other right wing and left wing parties who borrow money to meet their short-term promises. 

Brendan


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## Betsy Og (12 Feb 2020)

Attilla's Fusiliers I think would be appropriate name for the party. It's all logical but fairly Victorian in outlook, the only bit you left out was the sterilisation (I'd make it incentivised, not compulsory). I'm more realistic in that we'll always pay high taxes to live in this "great little country", there will always be a class of people who will live off the State. Its about managing that so it works.


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## Peanuts20 (12 Feb 2020)

Define people who are "not working". I've a family member who has not done a day's paid work in 3 years as she is a carer for her mother. Thankfully housing is not an issue for them but under your rules, if they had a need for social housing would they get it?
Also where do the likes of pensioners fit into your housing plan?

I'd agree with about 50% of this, another 25% of it would be ok with tweaks but some of it??? Take charging for healthcare for example, there are people who through no fault of their own would run up 5 and 6 figure sums in costs annually, who would pay for that.  Governments have a social responsibilty as well as a fiscal one

Are you sure you are not Ross O'Carroll Kellys father ??


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## Firefly (12 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> So give the Central Bank or the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council control of Fiscal Policy.  It would be a bit like the Troika.  This is how much the deficit or surplus will be - now you decide yourselves how much to raise in taxes and where you are going to spend the money.


Interesting article below about how they go about this in the Netherlands. It could be something useful to look at here..









						The price of going Dutch on election manifestos
					

Independent costings frame the political debate but  elections cover a broader range of topics, from foreign policy to justice




					www.irishtimes.com


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Feb 2020)

Firefly said:


> Interesting article below about how they go about this in the Netherlands.



Hi Firefly 

That is interesting ok but it only relates to campaign promises.

What I am suggesting is that we give the power to set the Budget limits to an independent body.    I would worry less about promises than actual spending in practice. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Feb 2020)

Peanuts20 said:


> Define people who are "not working". I've a family member who has not done a day's paid work in 3 years as she is a carer for her mother. Thankfully housing is not an issue for them but under your rules, if they had a need for social housing would they get it?



The principle is clear.  People who are working  outside the home should be prioritised for social housing close to where they work.  It is just not a factor in the allocation at the moment. 

The result is that people who are working end up with long commutes while people who depend on social welfare insist on housing in their community. 

It is unfair for people who are working having to do long commutes on top of that while people who are not working get priority for housing in high demand areas. 

The mother and daughter you mention would not be allocated social housing in a high demand area because they do not need it.  If someone requires regular hospital attendance, then that would be a factor which would be taken into consideration.

Brendan


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## Ceist Beag (12 Feb 2020)

Political parties are all about ideologies and how these are conveyed to the public. Most parties either struggle to get the message across or don't really want to get the full message across for fear of how it will be construed.
In your case Brendan the sentiment of what you are proposing is logical for a large % of it but some of it would be absolutely toxic as a message to the public. It's not all about money.
As some have alluded to, the idea of shipping those on the dole out to places where housing is cheaper has some very dark connotations. I think your political advisors would be having a quiet word with you before publishing anything!
If Leo was accused of lacking empathy then I fear Brendan you would be portrayed as some sort of monster in certain media outlets!


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Feb 2020)

Hi Ceist

I fully appreciate that a good long-term policy which benefits society as a whole would get loud objections from the vested interests.

But if a policy is correct, we should propose it and argue for it even if it's unpopular.

There is a huge housing problem and everyone is afraid to talking about some of the reasons because they will get abuse, like I get every time I propose it.  But that wouldn't stop me. It's wrong to have people getting cheap and free housing in high demand areas while the people who are paying for it have to commute for 3 hours a day.   A major part of the very high rents is that the state is paying for people who are not working to live in high demand areas.  

It would be much better if the state refused to pay for these and demand and rents would fall in the high demand areas.

Brendan


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## Ceist Beag (12 Feb 2020)

I think what I'm hearing Brendan is that you would make a good political advisor but a bad politician!


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## Purple (12 Feb 2020)

Ceist Beag said:


> I think what I'm hearing Brendan is that you would make a good political advisor but a bad politician!


Then you could right a book about it explaining how everything good that was done was your idea and the only mistakes your politician made was when they didn't listen to you.... then you could get a job running Bernardo's.


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## elacsaplau (12 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> Then you could right a book about it explaining how everything good that was done was your idea and the only mistakes your politician made was when they didn't listen to you.... then you could get a job running Bernardo's.



Ceist,

Make sure you get a good proofreader - what about Purple? Want to play "spot the ball"?!


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## Purple (12 Feb 2020)

elacsaplau said:


> Ceist,
> 
> Make sure you get a good proofreader - what about Purple? Want to play "spot the ball"?!


I’ll be in a re-education camp


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## WolfeTone (12 Feb 2020)

With regard to giving an independent body the authority to set budget limits, I think it would require a constitutional change under articles 21 and 22.

There is little to no evidence of people who are currently out of work and living in social housing being any way responsible for the high rents imposed on working people.

There is evidence that when employment opportunities arise, the long-term unemployment rate falls below 2%, as it is now.
I have no evidence that this 2% over periods of a year or longer are the same people.
We really are talking about a tiny cohort of people here.

The proposals attached to The Responsible Party seem cumbersome, legally suspect, and probably very costly.


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## Sunny (12 Feb 2020)

Huge numbers of housing being built in areas with no infrastructure, experts warn
					

Huge numbers of new houses are being built in areas with no infrastructure such as schools, water, transport and drainage.




					www.independent.ie
				





Bravo.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Feb 2020)

Hi Ceist

What I am saying is that we need a new political party which promotes responsible, long-term policies. 

And they would have to have thick enough necks to withstand the personal abuse that they would get for daring to suggest

People who make no effort to pay their mortgages should be repossessed
People who work should get better housing than people who don't.
We cannot afford the highest social welfare rates in Europe
Someone who has worked all their life should get a higher pension in retirement than someone who has been on welfare all their life
Public servants and politicians should have generous pensions but not gold plated ones
While we have a housing emergency people should not be living on their own in 4 bedroom social houses which could be housing a working family.
Landlords should be encouraged and not discouraged.
Etc.

It's much more popular to suggest that we will continue to live in denial - that we can continue borrowing money and living off the unnaturally high Corporation Tax receipts to fund a lifestyle and pension age we can't afford.  That throwing money at the health system will fix it.  And that we have enough builders in the country to build all the offices, hotels, rural broadband and houses that are needed. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Feb 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> With regard to giving an independent body the authority to set budget limits, I think it would require a constitutional change under articles 21 and 22.



Agreed.   It would have to be written into the constitution or else the next irresponsible party to take power would just change the legislation. 


Brendan


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Feb 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> There is evidence that when employment opportunities arise, the long-term unemployment rate falls below 2%, as it is now.
> I have no evidence that this 2% over periods of a year or longer are the same people.
> We really are talking about a tiny cohort of people here.



This is kind of true. in 2013 there were 230k people unemployed for over 6 months, in 2018 there were only 70k, and I suspect it's lower now.

Unemployed people eventually give up and often find other schemes. So in the same time period the numbers in receipt of carers' and disability allowance combined grew 70k. That's 3% of the labour force, not a small number.

Ireland still has a big problem with jobless households.


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## Leper (13 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Ceist
> 
> What I am saying is that we need a new political party which promotes responsible, long-term policies.
> 
> ...



A much short list than the original suggestions. Brendan, you've a bit to go yet, but you're getting there.

1. How much paying of a mortgage in arrears is acceptable to you to avoid repossession?
2. Generally, people who work get better housing than those who don't. Is there something I don't know.
3. We cannot afford the highest social welfare rates in Europe. I'm not fully au-fait with the situation, but am willing to learn.
4. The amount of time on welfare is the problem here. Are you tarring all welfare recipients with the same brush?
5. Do you know that public/civil servants don't have the same Social Welfare entitlements as those in the private sector?
6. How do you propose to distribute the spare capacity in any house?
7. Good and Honest Landlords should be encouraged. Finally, there is something on which I agree 100% with you.


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## Firefly (13 Feb 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> That's 3% of the labour force, not a small number.



3% sounds small, but as you said, that's 70,000 adults and they have to be subsidised by the rest of us before a penny goes anywhere else...


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## Delboy (13 Feb 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Unemployed people eventually give up and often find other schemes. So in the same time period the numbers in receipt of carers' and disability allowance combined grew 70k. That's 3% of the labour force, not a small number.








						Mystery of massive rise in those quitting workforce on disability
					

OVER the past few years an extraordinary development has occurred in Ireland, which has gone broadly unnoticed. Tens of thousands of people have left the labour force due to disability. This has occurred despite the fact that the workforce, in general, has become younger and healthier on most...




					www.independent.ie
				





> Yet, since 2006 (to 2013), there has been a 37.7pc increase in the number of people who have left the labour force citing a condition that substantially limits one or more basic physical activities.
> This is not people who have been unfortunate enough to be born with a disability, but people who have developed a disabling condition. This means 55,000 people – bigger than Waterford, the country's fifth largest city. Between 2002 and 2006, the same figure only increased by 1pc which is less than 2,000 people.
> So what has happened from 2006 to 2012 to cause 53,000 extra people to leave the labour force due to physical disability?
> Meanwhile, the number of people leaving the labour force citing a psychological or emotional condition has risen even more dramatically – 88,000 people are now diagnosed with an emotional or psychological condition that is bad enough that they can't work. This is a 27,000 rise from the same figure in 2006.
> ​


​


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## odyssey06 (13 Feb 2020)

I heard anecdotal information that if someone has been referred for a scan for a condition that interferes with their work, they can claim disability.
Given the waiting times for some of our scans in public system, that can be considerable period...
Easier for some than worrying about Jobs bridge or pretending to work.
Plus they get free bus pass.


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## WolfeTone (13 Feb 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Unemployed people eventually give up and often find other schemes



Sorry, I dont understand this point.



NoRegretsCoyote said:


> So in the same time period the numbers in receipt of carers' and disability allowance combined grew 70k. That's 3% of the labour force, not a small number.



Are carers not working people? 



NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Ireland still has a big problem with jobless households.



Perhaps, but what has that got to do with extortionate rents being paid? 
We have had longer periods of higher unemployment in the past, I dont recall those periods coinciding with huge rents in the private rental sector.


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## josh8267 (13 Feb 2020)

Firefly said:


> Just on this....do the EU rules on borrowing still apply? I think these were/are a godsend to be honest..





losttheplot said:


> Could we not just abandon the whole government thing and self rule business, bring the IMF back to sort it out.


Aaa But the first thing the TROIKA did when the came in was put USC on Brendan so called Responsible people if they were around for a bit longer they would have sorted and put a fair level field Social security system in place which would have stopped the rise of SF,

In a strange way when  I ask people why the voted for SF the biggest reason is they see FF/FG/Lab rolled back the changes brought in by the TROIKA and are worried if the TROIKA IMF come back Ireland will not be treated as good as last time seeing we rolled back changes the put in place,

If we have  downturn the TROIKA/IMF have to come back ,

God help anyone foolish enough to be taking out Mortgages seeing close  to 20% of payroll going in PRSI +USC and nothing to show for it if the find unemployed and no other job to go to;
God help anyone foolish enough to deposit money in Irish Banks who give out Mortgages to people who may become unemployed in Ireland,

And most of all god help the people who cannot see the vote for SF in a cry for help and a change in attitude everything happens for a reason ,just remember the TRIOKA/IMF will be taking from the same people as SF, all because the so called responsible people who are happy to see FF/FG/LAB dodge  reform  to shore up there shortsighted core supporters for another few years until The TROIKA/IMF Return,


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## Purple (14 Feb 2020)

josh8267 said:


> And most of all god help the people who cannot see the vote for SF in a cry for help and a change in attitude everything happens for a reason ,just remember the TRIOKA/IMF will be taking from the same people as SF, all because the so called responsible people who are happy to see FF/FG/LAB dodge  reform  to shore up there shortsighted core supporters for another few years until The TROIKA/IMF Return,


Do you think SF would do more or less damage to the economy than FF/FG?
Do you think that SF are more or less likely than FF/FG to reform the legal industry, the health industry and the Public Sector?

I get that you are angry and all that with the left of centre parties that have run the country for decades but what are you suggesting as an alternative?
The "angry vote for change" was from people who want more handouts, more featherbedding, more good money thrown after bad, far left government and no reform, just some fairy tail nonsense about getting their fair share, social justice (which doesn't include any social justice) and paying for it all by taxing "the rich". The protest vote was a coalescence of anger, stupidity, naivety, ignorance of history and a big dose of wishful thinking.
If you want a pseudo-marxist 32 county Republic with a government that controls most aspects of citizens lives and an a populace which fears that government then vote for Sinn Féin.
If you vote for them because you don't like the reality of getting out of yet another recession and you don't understand how economies work then you're an idiot (and a useful one to the Shinners).

We don't need a new political party, we need one of the two centre left parties to act with fiscal responsibility and we need to teach kids economics in schools so that they understand reality when they grow up.


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## Delboy (14 Feb 2020)

josh8267 said:


> In a strange way when  I ask people why the voted for SF the biggest reason is they see FF/FG/Lab rolled back the changes brought in by the TROIKA and are worried if the TROIKA IMF come back Ireland will not be treated as good as last time seeing we rolled back changes the put in place,


I would be stunned if the thinking of the vast majority of SF voters extended even 10% that far towards thinking about the Troika coming back in! The Troika never even entered their minds once since the week after they left!


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## Leper (14 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> Do you think SF would do more or less damage to the economy than FF/FG?
> Do you think that SF are more or less likely than FF/FG to reform the legal industry, the health industry and the Public Sector?
> 
> I get that you are angry and all that with the left of centre parties that have run the country for decades but what are you suggesting as an alternative?
> ...



Lovely words Purple, but the electorate made their decision to vote as they did by the amount of money in their pockets at the end of each week.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2020)

Leper said:


> Lovely words Purple, but the electorate made their decision to vote as they did by the amount of money in their pockets at the end of each week.


Exactly. Wishful thinking and blaming the wrong people for their problems. It's like a fat child crying because they are overweight but refusing to eat less chocolate and get some exercise.


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## josh8267 (14 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> Do you think SF would do more or less damage to the economy than FF/FG?
> Do you think that SF are more or less likely than FF/FG to reform the legal industry, the health industry and the Public Sector?
> 
> I get that you are angry and all that with the left of centre parties that have run the country for decades but what are you suggesting as an alternative?
> ...


Purple I am travelling around Germany at present
I started off with a visit to an Irish couple who left Ireland in the last downturn, the took over a closed down Irish pub formally ran by an Indian they have being very successful running it ,I was there for the Rugby six nations match on Saturday , There was lots of Irish along with some English and Wales supporters, there was  a  polish family  following the Irish team father worked in construction over in Germany having already worked in Ireland ,
I was talking to them they are earning a lot less money in Germany than Ireland, the regret coming to Ireland for one reason once the lost there job the drop in income was massive compared to Germany,
Would they come back to Ireland never still having nightmares from that time,
I have never supported SF You are in for some land when the parties you support run out of road,and the so called responsible people are gone with all of the money they creamed off the likes of you,


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## Purple (14 Feb 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Purple I am travelling around Germany at present
> I started off with a visit to an Irish couple who left Ireland in the last downturn, the took over a closed down Irish pub formally ran by an Indian they have being very successful running it ,I was there for the Rugby six nations match on Saturday , There was lots of Irish along with some English and Wales supporters, there was  a  polish family  following the Irish team father worked in construction over in Germany having already worked in Ireland ,
> I was talking to them they are earning a lot less money in Germany than Ireland, the regret coming to Ireland for one reason once the lost there job the drop in income was massive compared to Germany,
> Would they come back to Ireland never still having nightmares from that time,
> I have never supported SF You are in for some land when the parties you support run out of road,and the so called responsible people are gone with all of the money they creamed off the likes of you,


So I'm still not getting what party you do support. Being angry doesn't solve anything. Pointing out problems doesn't solve anything. Having stupid fanciful policies doesn't solve anything. 
Pointing out obvious things like that we have a very narrow tax base which massively over taxes high earners and massively under taxes low and middle income earners doesn't solve anything.
Being cynical and pointing out the obvious isn't being wise, it's just stating the bleedin' obvious.
Given that you have to vote for someone, unless you just want to be a spectator, who do you think will do least harm? Who do you vote for?


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## Leo (14 Feb 2020)

josh8267 said:


> I was talking to them they are earning a lot less money in Germany than Ireland, the regret coming to Ireland for one reason once the lost there job the drop in income was massive compared to Germany,



Hmm. so the only conclusion I can draw here is it's better to work for less money on the off chance that you lose your job. If you do, the drop to social welfare won't be as big a shock to the system.


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## WolfeTone (14 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> It would have to be written into the constitution or else the next irresponsible party to take power would just change the legislation.



What is occurring in the Johnson administration in UK seems to resemble what you are talking about. Here is the Bloomberg take on it; 

Johnson has Really Siezed control now


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Feb 2020)

Hi Wolfie 

It seems to me to be the exact opposite of what I am proposing. 

From the Guardian

_ Javid had been pushing for tighter fiscal rules, while No 10 wanted fewer constraints on spending. _


Brendan


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## WolfeTone (14 Feb 2020)

Exactly, a Finance Minister sets out a series of fiscally responsible measures (in line with your sentiment) and along comes a PM that appears to be wanting to tear up those rules and go on a bit of a public spending bender. 

Newsnight presenter on BBC2 last night wondered if Johnson had found all the "magic money trees".


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Feb 2020)

OK Wolfie

I had misunderstood you.

I would hope that a new political party committed to acting responsibly would have all its representatives acting responsibly. 

The Conservative Party has become populist in just the same way as FG has. 

Brendan


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## josh8267 (14 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> OK Wolfie
> 
> I had misunderstood you.
> 
> ...


The Right wing in  the UK can always be reckless with taxpayers money because when things go wrong it will not affect them,

The problem In Ireland is FG/FF/ populist policies will have to be paid long term by there own supporters in other words people who never vote left wing,

The problem I see following your take on responsibly and I may be picking you up wrong  is your interested in fairness in the system is not showing through for some reason,
Hope you don't mind me bringing it up ,


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## Purple (14 Feb 2020)

FF and FG are left of centre parties.


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## josh8267 (14 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> FF and FG are left of centre parties.


All over the EU left of centre parties have fairness in the system for the people who once the enter the workforce until the  retire can expect to be looked after out of there social security contributions , FF/FG/LAB stopped looking after them back in the mid 1980s but still took the same amount employers/employees contributions as lets say Germany ,But give nothing back in return ,


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Feb 2020)

josh8267 said:


> I may be picking you up wrong is your interested in fairness in the system is not showing through for some reason,



Hi josh

Interesting observation.

Not sure why.

I think we have been beaten into thinking that "fairness" means having very generous housing, welfare and benefits for people who are not working while requiring those who work to pay high prices for their housing and require them to commute three hours a day. 

The problem is that if you challenge the vested interests in this country, you get demonised. 

But that is why we need a new party to stand up for fairness for everyone and not just for people on welfare. 

Brendan


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## josh8267 (14 Feb 2020)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi josh
> 
> Interesting observation.
> 
> ...


The foundations of fairness has to be built into the Social security system if you address this everything else fall into place,
I am retired now I am actually travelling around Germany at present ,
I get asked about The Irish General  election all the time  , My friend was showing an German Employer today how much prsi he and his employer  paid in 2010 he lost his job and home and moved to Germany for work ,German Employer cant understand how so called responsible people could allow such a system to exist in Ireland,
Have you an Idea how to explain why this is allowed to go on and how you would address it,
Have you Googled (Leos PRSI Plan) in your opinion who stopped him from taking it further, do you agree if he started to address it he would have halted the movement to the left ,FG would now be back in Government on there own if he followed through when he became leader,


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## ATC110 (15 Feb 2020)

Leper said:


> 3. You want to convert all public sector and politicians' pension to generous defined contribution schemes. What amount do you suggest each pays?



Whatever amount they can afford to pay like anyone else contributing to a DC scheme


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## joe sod (15 Feb 2020)

josh8267 said:


> work ,German Employer cant understand how so called responsible people could allow such a system to exist in Ireland,
> Have you an Idea how to explain why this is allowed to go on and how you would address it,



The Germans can't really point the finger at our welfare system, the refugee influx that Germany allowed in since 2015, as of 2019 is still costing the German taxpayer 20 billion euros. Whatever about the moral issue of allowing in so many refugees, the cost is borne by Germany's social security system that was supposed to be there to pay for the German workers pensions and social security, it looks like these refugees are going to be a burden on the German state for many years.


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## WolfeTone (15 Feb 2020)

joe sod said:


> it looks like these refugees are going to be a burden on the German state for many years.



Depends on how the are managed. If they are kept in direct provision centres, little to no income, denied permission to work, stigmatized as being a 'burden', then it is a big problem.
If they are allowed access to housing, education, healthcare, earning an income, they can contribute positively to the economy now for subsequent generations.


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## Delboy (16 Feb 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> Depends on how the are managed. If they are kept in direct provision centres, little to no income, denied permission to work, stigmatized as being a 'burden', then it is a big problem.
> If they are allowed access to housing, education, healthcare, earning an income, they can contribute positively to the economy now for subsequent generations.


They aren't kept in DP centres and they haven#t been denied permission to work.. They simply don't have the qualifications or education to to contribute positively to the economy from what I've seen and read.


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## WolfeTone (16 Feb 2020)

Delboy said:


> They simply don't have the *qualifications or education*





WolfeTone said:


> If they are allowed access to housing, *education*



Rome wasn't built in a day. You are talking about a people displaced in the most horrific of circumstances. 
Irish history tells a not too dissimilar story in the US and Britain. 
Once derided, abused, dismissed as uneducated and unqualified, not now.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> Rome wasn't built in a day. You are talking about a people displaced in the most horrific of circumstances.
> Irish history tells a not too dissimilar story in the US and Britain.
> Once derided, abused, dismissed as uneducated and unqualified, not now.


And look at the problems we caused; political corruption, organised crime, paedophile priests, ghettos and the short, red faced ugly gene. 
Immigrants coming here at least improve the genepool and have a good work ethic but we should rightly fear the possibility that they are just like us. That's the last thing we need.


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## josh8267 (5 Mar 2020)

Delboy said:


> They aren't kept in DP centres and they haven#t been denied permission to work.. They simply don't have the qualifications or education to to contribute positively to the economy from what I've seen and read.


Where did you get the above from, at this stage almost all ore working in Germany,

From what I can see The Germany employment system has  resulted in there positive contribution to the German Economy. almost all are in employment at this stage and in house Qualification is  to do the required work is  working very well,

The less Educated prepared to learn and work  Built many a Economy away better than what we have at present in Ireland,


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## RedOnion (5 Mar 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Where did you get the above from, at this stage almost all ore working in Germany


Really? Almost all?
Have you got a link to any reputable data source or report that backs this up?


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## josh8267 (5 Mar 2020)

RedOnion said:


> Really? Almost all?
> Have you got a link to any reputable data source or report that backs this up?


I don't really  need a source . I spend a few month in Germany/Austria each year , in fact our walking Club is just back from a walking tour around Germany and other EU City's we fly to an airport in Europe having already bought Flexbus covering 6 City's  ,Out Club have being  this Tour for at least 10 years  actually away more than 10 years
we have being going there Before Germany sent out A message Welcoming Refugees, we were there at the height of the influx of refugees, we seen how it was handled by the Germans,

They located the Refugees within walking  distance or close to public transport  services to  work shortage areas, and it worked,

There social payment system allowed around 150 euro a month for food ans personal Items, Balance had to go on housing costs,
If the find low income jobs or training they hold there housing payment for so long,

Now I will jump across that rabbit hole, Google ,Germany Welcomes Refugees now it's reaping the benefits and have a read, Don't miss the part where 70% of Females Refugees  had children under 3 years when they arrived,


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## RedOnion (5 Mar 2020)

josh8267 said:


> I don't really need a source . I spend a few month in Germany/Austria each year


You're making it up as you go along! You're a complete spoofer. You met a refugee that had a job, so they must all have jobs?

Even the article you suggested I read contradicts your own claim the "almost all" refugees are in employment. Maybe you should read it yourself and realise how ridiculous a statement like that is! I had read that article previously, so not surprised you referred to it.

Yes, there's a high employment rate, and the authorities are surprised at how high it it, but it's nowhere close to the levels that anyone could say 'almost all'.

For the record, I don't agree with the original post that you had commented on, but making stuff up isn't the way to move a conversation forward.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Mar 2020)

That's all folks...


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