# Knock-on effect of Nurses pay claim



## Purple (30 Jan 2019)

Given that there will be a host of pay claims in order to maintain relativity (the thing that two rounds of Benchmarking at a cost of a billion and a half every year in extra taxes was meant to get rid of) does anyone have a source for the total cost when the dust settles?
The Government is saying that the Nurses 12.5% increase will cost €300,000,000 a year but all of the other healthcare workers will want the same. What's the total cost?


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## noproblem (30 Jan 2019)

I could also ask. What's the possible total loss if the nurses don't get treated properly?  Remember, no one's getting a pay rise and no public servants have been given any pay rises either.


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## galway_blow_in (30 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> I could also ask. What's the possible total loss if the nurses don't get treated properly?  Remember, no one's getting a pay rise and no public servants have been given any pay rises either.



Did AGS not receive a pay rise over a year ago?


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## Delboy (30 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> Remember, no one's getting a pay rise and no public servants have been given any pay rises either.


I think you may have missed this

*Public Service Stability Agreement*
01-Jan-18 All public service salaries to increase by 1%
01-Oct-18 All public service salaries to increase by a further 1%
01-Jan-19 Everyone earning less than €30,000 will get a 1% increase
01-Sep-19 All public service salaries to increase by 1.75%
01-Jan-20 Everyone earning less than €32,000 will get a 0.5% increase
01-Oct-20 All public sector salaries to increase by 2%



> It is understood the deal will cost the exchequer €880 million over three years



Hardly small change


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## noproblem (30 Jan 2019)

Pay was cut and hasn't got back to what it was before the cut yet many years have passed. So, no pay increases, in fact, pay cuts. As for a stability agreement? Fine Gael made sure it was far from an agreement. What you might call a forced choice.


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## Gordon Gekko (30 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> Pay was cut and hasn't got back to what it was before the cut yet many years have passed. So, no pay increases, in fact, pay cuts. As for a stability agreement? Fine Gael made sure it was far from an agreement. What you might call a forced choice.



That whole “pay restoration” narrative is horse manure. Public servants, nurses included, were overpaid in 2008. Those days must never return. Fine Gael are doing the right thing. I have a lot of time for nurses but I don’t support them in this instance. €30k for a graduate is decent money.


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## galway_blow_in (30 Jan 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> That whole “pay restoration” narrative is horse manure. Public servants, nurses included, were overpaid in 2008. Those days must never return. Fine Gael are doing the right thing. I have a lot of time for nurses but I don’t support them in this instance. €30k for a graduate is decent money.



Basic rates of pay are irrelevant when it comes to the likes of nurses and especially guards who while perhaps earn 23k basic per year after leaving templemore, when you add in the litany of added extras, no guard is on less than 30k ( not including over time )


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## Easeler (30 Jan 2019)

I have seen a child with a poster saying my mom worked Christmas day like so what she got treble time for it. It's the high cost of accommodation that is sqeezing young people starting out that's a big chunk of there wages gone already like what good is 500 quid a week take home pay to a young nurse trying to live in Dublin.


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## Purple (31 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> I could also ask. What's the possible total loss if the nurses don't get treated properly?  Remember, no one's getting a pay rise and no public servants have been given any pay rises either.


What do you mean by £treated properly"?
What do you mean by ""total loss"?

I posted this in the Economic Issues section because it wasn't about the rights and wrongs of the Nurses 12.5% pay claim. I was asking specifically about the cost of this and, more importantly, all of the associated pay claims.


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## Purple (31 Jan 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> Basic rates of pay are irrelevant when it comes to the likes of nurses and especially guards who while perhaps earn 23k basic a week after leaving templemore, when you add in the litany of added extras, no guard is on less than 30k ( not including over time )


Average Garda pay is €66,000 a year.
Average Nurses pay is €55,000 a year.

Garda pay including the value of their pension is over €100,000 a year. Nurses total pay value is far lower because Gardai retire after 30 years. Source.
Nurses pensions are still very valuable though and while Garda pensions add about 50% to the real value of their salary nurses pensions certainly add 30% which means that their average package is worth closer to €75,000 a year.
_
Edit: I should have read my own link. Average Garda pay was €68,000 but after their recent increases is it now €72,000 so their average package is worth closer to €110,000 a year._


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## galway_blow_in (31 Jan 2019)

Purple said:


> Average Garda pay is €66,000 a year.
> Average Nurses pay is €55,000 a year.
> 
> Garda pay including the value of their pension is over €100,000 a year. Nurses total pay value is far lower because Gardai retire after 30 years.



Sorry for crazy typo earlier, auto spell on phone selected week instead of year. 

Of course I didn't mean new garda entrants earn 23k per week


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## Delboy (31 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> Pay was cut and hasn't got back to what it was before the cut yet many years have passed. So, no pay increases, in fact, pay cuts. As for a stability agreement? Fine Gael made sure it was far from an agreement. What you might call a forced choice.


No, it's clearly a pay rise. You may need to read it again


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## NoRegretsCoyote (31 Jan 2019)

According to Eurostat, in 2016 (latest year available) total general government expenditure on compensation of employees was €19.4 bn, of which €7bn was in the health sector.

Educated guess would say by 2019 these numbers are more like €20.5bn and €7.7bn.

You can crudely multiply these numbers by 12.5% to get the knock-on implications.


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## Purple (31 Jan 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> Sorry for crazy typo earlier, auto spell on phone selected week instead of year.
> 
> Of course I didn't mean new garda entrants earn 23k per week


I didn't notice it; I thought you said 23k a year.
Ya shudda said nuttin


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## Firefly (31 Jan 2019)

Gordon Gekko said:


> That whole “pay restoration” narrative is horse manure.



It's funny that when wages were reduced they were a "cut" but when they are increased they are "restored"


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## galway_blow_in (31 Jan 2019)

Firefly said:


> It's funny that when wages were reduced they were a "cut" but when they are increased they are "restored"



Not unless you believe wage rates are set in stone.

Pre 2008 was a whole other country


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## Purple (31 Jan 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> According to Eurostat, in 2016 (latest year available) total general government expenditure on compensation of employees was €19.4 bn, of which €7bn was in the health sector.
> 
> Educated guess would say by 2019 these numbers are more like €20.5bn and €7.7bn.
> 
> You can crudely multiply these numbers by 12.5% to get the knock-on implications.


I don't think it would be that high but it's certainly a good indicator of what the ceiling could be. 
So the max is just under a billion a year (the price of the most expensive children's hospital in the world every year and a half.)


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## KCRMoney (31 Jan 2019)

We have one of the highest ratios of nurses per capita in the world.

Ireland 12.398
Australia 10.102
UK 8.869.

Source: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.NUMW.P3?end=2016&start=2004

We also have a relatively young population. Average age:

Ireland 36.9
Australia 38.6
UK 40.7

Source: http://world.bymap.org/MedianAge.html

Issue isn't staffing levels. Its staff organiastion and utilisation by management. Looks like a money grab to me.


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## Delboy (31 Jan 2019)

Like everywhere else in the PS/CS, you'll find that outdated and restrictive work practices kept in place by vested interests are the main issues to having a 21st century health service. Throwing more wages at the problem will not solve it one bit.


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## Early Riser (31 Jan 2019)

KCRMoney said:


> Issue isn't staffing levels.* Its staff organiastion and utilisation by management.*



I would suggest it is more widespread than that again. The opposition to Health Service reform is pervasive and pernicious (while all pay lip service to it). 

The health service unions are obstructive (each for their own). Local communities oppose any "loss" locally, no matter how ineffective, inefficient or inappropriate the service might be. This is not just because of local access to service (although always couched that way) but because they or a family member works in it - or local business fear loss of trade if employment is moved elsewhere. Polticians respond to their local electorate ( " I fully support reform but.........). Everybody wants Health Service reform - somewhere else by someone else (unless there is a promotion, etc) dangled in front of me.




KCRMoney said:


> We have one of the highest ratios of nurses per capita in the world.



I wasn't able to access the graphic. But I sometimes wonder how accurate these global comparators are? Did you see this critique article in the Irisy Times ?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...and-mask-real-shortage-in-hospitals-1.3775004


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## galway_blow_in (31 Jan 2019)

KCRMoney said:


> We have one of the highest ratios of nurses per capita in the world.
> 
> Ireland 12.398
> Australia 10.102
> ...



If nurses were striking over system management etc,  I'd fully back them, not that they need my support, it's the default position of most Irish people to unconditionally back nurses.


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## galway_blow_in (31 Jan 2019)

Delboy said:


> Like everywhere else in the PS/CS, you'll find that outdated and restrictive work practices kept in place by vested interests are the main issues to having a 21st century health service. Throwing more wages at the problem will not solve it one bit.




Nor is it meant to


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## galway_blow_in (31 Jan 2019)

Early Riser said:


> I would suggest it is more widespread than that again. The opposition to Health Service reform is pervasive and pernicious (while all pay lip service to it).
> 
> The health service unions are obstructive (each for their own). Local communities oppose any "loss" locally, no matter how ineffective, inefficient or inappropriate the service might be. This is not just because of local access to service (although always couched that way) but because they or a family member works in it - or local business fear loss of trade if employment is moved elsewhere. Polticians respond to their local electorate ( " I fully support reform but.........). Everybody wants Health Service reform - somewhere else by someone else (unless there is a promotion, etc) dangled in front of me.
> 
> ...



Ireland is very small so reform always means someone you know looses their job or conditions, add in the electoral system which requires taking the middle ground on everything and you have endless fudge.

I went to roscommon hospital last June for an xray, it's nearly an hour away but going to Galway would mean sitting waiting for ten hours, ballinasloe about six

I was in and out of roscommon in two hours and forty five minutes of that  involved waiting for the radiographer to come in from athlone where they lived, the hospital was empty so they didn't have a radiographer permanently on duty, try and close the place down and every local politician would be on radio within an hour so as to put voters straight as to where they stood.

There will never be a proper functioning public health service as we don't want one


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## Purple (31 Jan 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> There will never be a proper functioning public health service as we don't want one


Very well put.


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## KCRMoney (31 Jan 2019)

Why the looking for more money then, they should be asking for reform not money.


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## Purple (1 Feb 2019)

KCRMoney said:


> Why the looking for more money then, they should be asking for reform not money.


Yep, it the INMO were striking to get reforms implemented which would save money and/or deliver better services I'd be out there supporting them.


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## Leper (5 Feb 2019)

I have backed Nurses/Midwives on several threads on this forum. I was working with the HSE when the Lansdowne and Haddington Road Agreements were agreed. As an unpaid union official I spoke against both agreements on several fronts. INMO were instrumental in having the agreements introduced. The Public/Civil Service were shortchanged in both agreements.

The Bottom Line:- Lansdowne and Haddington Road Agreements were agreed upon (despite me). There is a time and place for everything; this is not the time and the Health Service is not the place. The nurses are doing themselves no favours in the current situation. They are breaking a Pay Agreement that they bought into.

Worse again, I am listening to hypocritical greed mongers informing listeners on national radio that the Nurses are on strike to support the patients. Gut wrenching at best. The nurses are on a solo run at this time and don't care a whit about anybody else including other workers, patients etc.


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## Delboy (5 Feb 2019)

There was a nurse on Liveline earlier who said to a man on the other line, who had an operation cancelled because of the strike, that "We are doing this for you, the patients"!


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## galway_blow_in (5 Feb 2019)

Delboy said:


> There was a nurse on Liveline earlier who said to a man on the other line, who had an operation cancelled because of the strike, that "We are doing this for you, the patients"!



In the words of Clint Eastwood 

 " don't p1ss down my neck and call it rain


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## noproblem (5 Feb 2019)

For the ordinary Joe Public out there and most seem to be behind the nurses, can anyone put up what the nurses pay actually is? Today I spoke with a nurse who told me she works a 3 day shift and that's her week. That comes across as, nice work if you can get it. She was very happy with this arrangement and no way she wants it changed. Also said to me that this situation is available to mostly middle aged nurses and the younger one's just do as they're told. Now, i'm one of those behind the nurses but surely the facts of everything should be out there.


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## Delboy (5 Feb 2019)

Purple has given figures in another thread
https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/new-boss-for-the-hse.210450/page-3#post-1599554


> average nurses pay of €57,600 a year, plus €18,000 worth of pension contributions for a package worth €74,000 a year


Even better if you can condense the full working week into 3 shifts


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## Leper (5 Feb 2019)

1. Let's keep with the full truth. A 3 day shift for a nurse is usually a 12 hour day. Therefore, 36 hours is this nurse's weekly work time.
2. When I started working (1960's) nurses worked a 39 hour week (or at least were paid 78 hours over the fortnight; the additional time worked was always given back to them). I don't know numbers or percentages, but I believe only a minority of nurses are currently working fulltime. OK nurses on night duty working full hours do 12 hours nightly over 7 days (84 hours on which 6 hours are returned to them either in overtime or time off).
3. I can say what nurses pay actually is. I know the overtime rates, the night duty allowance, Sunday Rates, etc. They are no secret, a simple trek on the internet will show these rates.
4. Nurses do courses and they pay for them themselves. If they did the same courses in the UK, the NHS would pay for the courses.
5. For once, I agree with Delboy (above) the nurse on Liveline pissed me off too. The first casualty of any strike is the truth. This is no exception.


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## noproblem (5 Feb 2019)

That link just gives averages and puts in pensions, etc, which is not giving the proper nurses wage.
 I've gone into the HSE site and found salaries, etc, from Oct 2018 but to tell the truth it's practically impossible to make head nor tail from it. So many grades and then different salaries within the grades, it's almost impossible to tell what a nurse is nowday's. Anyway, I did give it a good read and tried my best to understand it and, what I take from it is the new recruits aren't too well paid but they've been given a great start in life, so all in all on nurses pay I'd have to agree that they're not badly paid. Maybe staffing is a problem but there's a mafiosa at play in the hospitals and i've no doubt about that.
 What does our goverment do now? I think it's time for the truth to come out. 
Why are there so many agency nurses at an enormous cost? Are nurses ran off their feet? Not as far as I can see and have seen. 
Have all nurses got the 4 year honours degree from a university? I doubt it very much.
 Is working a 3 day shift a perk? One has to say a big YES. 
Will the nurses lose the public's backing if the whole truth was known? I'd have to say again a Big Yes.
 Can the goverment make things easier? Of course they can but the ward nurse managers need to pull out the finger as well. Nurses are saying the public need to have the facts known? Know what? They might be sorry when those facts emerge but, will they emerge? That's only for starters.


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## galway_blow_in (5 Feb 2019)

The general population is hugely supportive of nurses and always have been, to the point where salaries are meaningless, the received wisdom is that they are poorly paid and the media do little to disuade this narative, the government knows this, were there not such concern over the brexit aftermath, I've no doubt that the government would have rolled over by now


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## noproblem (5 Feb 2019)

A note of caution though, the general population are very fickle. Wait and see.


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## beautfan (5 Feb 2019)

T


Leper said:


> 1. Let's keep with the full truth. A 3 day shift for a nurse is usually a 12 hour day. Therefore, 36 hours is this nurse's weekly work time.
> 2. When I started working (1960's) nurses worked a 39 hour week (or at least were paid 78 hours over the fortnight; the additional time worked was always given back to them). I don't know numbers or percentages, but I believe only a minority of nurses are currently working fulltime. OK nurses on night duty working full hours do 12 hours nightly over 7 days (84 hours on which 6 hours are returned to them either in overtime or time off).
> 3. I can say what nurses pay actually is. I know the overtime rates, the night duty allowance, Sunday Rates, etc. They are no secret, a simple trek on the internet will show these rates.
> 4. Nurses do courses and they pay for them themselves. If they did the same courses in the UK, the NHS would pay for the courses.
> 5. For once, I agree with Delboy (above) the nurse on Liveline pissed me off too. The first casualty of any strike is the truth. This is no exception.



There is a fund for nurses to do courses. My colleague did a course in UL which she funded herself, while a nurse on the same course was fully funded.


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## Leper (5 Feb 2019)

Let's keep with the full truth. A staff nurse doing a 78 hour fortnight gets basic pay €45701.00 per annum (€22.45 per hour). Add  Qualification Entitlement (Higher Degree Alowance), Add Unit Allowance (not paid to some nurses), Add Sunday Allowance (an additional €22.45 per hour worked plus basic), Add Night Duty Allowance, Add Overtime, Add the Sunday Premium paid twice a Year (percentage of Sunday/BankHoliday hours worked over 6 months previously). These figures are for a Staff Nurse having gone through 12 annual increments and spending 3 years at the maximum of scale). I took the figures from the INMO website and are applicable since 1st January 2019. [A staff nurse at the top of scale working 12 hours overtime on a Sunday would earn €538.80 for that day alone].

There are some nurses getting paid much less than this, but that's another story. A senior staff nurse would be paid €47898.00 basic per annum.

Joe Public is not aware of these  figures. Some of the nursing people interviewed recently by the press are not supplying the full truth regarding pay either.

Looking at the six oclock news tonight the INMO official gave superficial answers e.g We are not talking the number of Nurses, We're talking WTE's (whole time equivalents e.g two nurses working 19.5 hours weekly = 1 WTE). I wish the HSE and the Nurse Representatives and the Nurses would inform us of the full truth at all times. Half Truths are lies.

If anybody wises to dispute my figures, please do so. If this thread needs a nurse to contribute then let's hear from some.

Have you noticed the private hospitals seem unaffected by the strikes (and they get paid HSE rates)?


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## Delboy (5 Feb 2019)

Leper said:


> 5. *For once, I agree with Delboy* (above) the nurse on Liveline pissed me off too. The first casualty of any strike is the truth. This is no exception.


For once


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## galway_blow_in (5 Feb 2019)

Leper said:


> Let's keep with the full truth. A staff nurse doing a 78 hour fortnight gets basic pay €45701.00 per annum (€22.45 per hour). Add  Qualification Entitlement (Higher Degree Alowance), Add Unit Allowance (not paid to some nurses), Add Sunday Allowance (an additional €22.45 per hour worked plus basic), Add Night Duty Allowance, Add Overtime, Add the Sunday Premium paid twice a Year (percentage of Sunday/BankHoliday hours worked over 6 months previously). These figures are for a Staff Nurse having gone through 12 annual increments and spending 3 years at the maximum of scale). I took the figures from the INMO website and are applicable since 1st January 2019. [A staff nurse at the top of scale working 12 hours overtime on a Sunday would earn €538.80 for that day alone].
> 
> There are some nurses getting paid much less than this, but that's another story. A senior staff nurse would be paid €47898.00 basic per annum.
> 
> ...



Watching rte interview any public sector union rep is like watching a game of softball


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## valery (5 Feb 2019)

€22.45 per hour basic pay. A nurse on the news tonight claimed to be earning just above the minimum wage!  Last week, think it was on the Seán O’Rourke show, a medical consultant claimed nurses earn no overtime payments and get no lunch break.  His remarks went unchallenged.  With such biased media, the government will never hold the line.


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## Conan (5 Feb 2019)

The media, RTÉ in particular, are very poor at challenging the “accepted wisdom”. The INMO agreed to a public sector wage deal. Now they want to break the deal. If the Government cave in, we have already seen other Public Sector Unions say that they will seek parity. So the additional cost of giving the nurses a 12% increase - €180m - will be dwarfed by other Unions seeking to the same deal.
So all those vox-pop people offering support to nurses need to be asked if they are willing to pay more tax to pay the €180m. 
The Health Service is “Angola”, it seems impossible to manage due in no small part to all the vested interests. The INMO want more nurses but oppose recruiting “theatre assistants” who could release fully qualified nurses to more Ward duties.  We all know of the difficulties with Consultants. The PS Unions tend to be more focused on maintaining their relative position viz-a-viz other Unions than seeking improvement in services. 
Yes Nurses do a wonderful, job. Yes the system is chaotic. But simply increasing nurses pay by 12% won’t solve the problems.


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## Delboy (5 Feb 2019)

There was a husband of a nurse on the Sean O'Rourke show this morning. Said his wife regularly works a coupe of extra hours overtime each day to help out and gets no overtime. Was supposed to get lieu days under some agreement but that wasn't honoured by the HSE.
Don't know how accurate or not that is, but it went out on national radio.


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## Delboy (5 Feb 2019)

Conan said:


> So the additional cost of giving the nurses a 12% increase - €180m - will be dwarfed by other Unions seeking to the same deal.


The Govt are saying the 12% pay rise equates to €300m, not €180m


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## galway_blow_in (5 Feb 2019)

Conan said:


> The media, RTÉ in particular, are very poor at challenging the “accepted wisdom”. The INMO agreed to a public sector wage deal. Now they want to break the deal. If the Government cave in, we have already seen other Public Sector Unions say that they will seek parity. So the additional cost of giving the nurses a 12% increase - €180m - will be dwarfed by other Unions seeking to the same deal.
> So all those vox-pop people offering support to nurses need to be asked if they are willing to pay more tax to pay the €180m.
> The Health Service is “Angola”, it seems impossible to manage due in no small part to all the vested interests. The INMO want more nurses but oppose recruiting “theatre assistants” who could release fully qualified nurses to more Ward duties.  We all know of the difficulties with Consultants. The PS Unions tend to be more focused on maintaining their relative position viz-a-viz other Unions than seeking improvement in services
> Yes Nurses do a wonderful, job. Yes the system is chaotic. But simply increasing nurses pay by 12% won’t solve the problems.



RTE are overtly pro public sector


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## galway_blow_in (5 Feb 2019)

Conan said:


> The media, RTÉ in particular, are very poor at challenging the “accepted wisdom”. The INMO agreed to a public sector wage deal. Now they want to break the deal. If the Government cave in, we have already seen other Public Sector Unions say that they will seek parity. So the additional cost of giving the nurses a 12% increase - €180m - will be dwarfed by other Unions seeking to the same deal.
> So all those vox-pop people offering support to nurses need to be asked if they are willing to pay more tax to pay the €180m.
> The Health Service is “Angola”, it seems impossible to manage due in no small part to all the vested interests. The INMO want more nurses but oppose recruiting “theatre assistants” who could release fully qualified nurses to more Ward duties.  We all know of the difficulties with Consultants. The PS Unions tend to be more focused on maintaining their relative position viz-a-viz other Unions than seeking improvement in services.
> Yes Nurses do a wonderful, job. Yes the system is chaotic. But simply increasing nurses pay by 12% won’t solve the problems.



Rang up the Galway clinic today seeking an appointment with a rheumatologist, need another steroid injection in my foot which I injured last June, secretary casually told me I might get appointment with one of the two available within two months if I was lucky and a cancellation happened, 240 euro, imagine how long the wait is in the public sphere ?


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## noproblem (6 Feb 2019)

Just wondering did you not need a Dr's letter to go and see the consultant?


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## Purple (6 Feb 2019)

The GP's are out telling lies again I see.

They say that there is a shortage of GP's. That is patently untrue.
They also said that about half of all graduates emigrate due to cuts in funding since the crash. That is also a lie.

To address the first lie; there are about 200 GP graduates enter the system each year. Two thirds of those are women. The vast majority of them work part time and so they only add up to 110 full time GP's. The problem isn't that there aren't enough GP's. The problem is that they are so lazy and/or over paid that they only work a half day. 

To address the second lie; about one third of medical graduates are foreign students who were never going to stay in this country, no matter how much they were going to be paid. In many cases their country paid for them to train on the proviso that they went home to work for X number of years after they graduate. The GP's know this but choose to lie about it. 

If Taxi drivers were lying like this the media would call them out. Why do people who work in the medical industry get a free ride, be they nurses, doctors or anyone else who is customer facing?


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## RETIRED2017 (6 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> The GP's are out telling lies again I see.
> 
> They say that there is a shortage of GP's. That is patently untrue.
> They also said that about half of all graduates emigrate due to cuts in funding since the crash. That is also a lie.
> ...


This is the kind of conversation we need more of,


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## noproblem (6 Feb 2019)

Might be a good idea for the goverment to get newly qualified Irish nurses and doctors to work in Ireland for at least 2/3 years as part of their training after their qualification. As far as I can see there's this sense of adventure in their heads after qualifying with most already with plans for going abroad but they're saying it's because they won't get enough money. Some tax payers might like to call it pay back time.


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## Leper (6 Feb 2019)

noproblem said:


> Might be a good idea for the goverment to get newly qualified Irish nurses and doctors to work in Ireland for at least 2/3 years as part of their training after their qualification. As far as I can see there's this sense of adventure in their heads after qualifying with most already with plans for going abroad but they're saying it's because they won't get enough money. Some tax payers might like to call it pay back time.



Let's do it with all 3rd Level Qualificants. Why discriminate against Nurses only?


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## Leo (6 Feb 2019)

noproblem said:


> Might be a good idea for the goverment to get newly qualified Irish nurses and doctors to work in Ireland for at least 2/3 years as part of their training after their qualification.



Many of the doctors are paying significant sums to come to Ireland for their training, imposing such controls might kill that cash cow. Many Irish graduates across all disciplines like to take a year out to travel directly or shortly after qualification. Of course, the stats published on those leaving don't make any reference to the number that return within a year or two.


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## noproblem (6 Feb 2019)

Leo said:


> Many of the doctors are paying significant sums to come to Ireland for their training, imposing such controls might kill that cash cow. Many Irish graduates across all disciplines like to take a year out to travel directly or shortly after qualification. Of course, the stats published on those leaving don't make any reference to the number that return within a year or two.



I did say "Irish".


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## Leo (6 Feb 2019)

noproblem said:


> I did say "Irish".



True, you did. I don't like the idea of such restrictions on any graduate, travel broadens the mind and is less of a disruption at that stage. I would however like to see a little more honesty about the fact that most of them come back.


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## Purple (6 Feb 2019)

Leo said:


> I would however like to see a little more honesty about the fact that most of them come back.


And, in the case of doctors, many were never going to stay here because they aren't from here in the first place. They pay around €50,000 a year to the universities for the privenage. It just shows how much we invest in the training of our doctors. By the time they graduate the people of Ireland have invested about a third of a million in them. A little gratitude from them would be nice.


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## Delboy (6 Feb 2019)

Create more medical schools. End the closed shop that only lets people on 600+ points or whatever get into studying to become a doctor. Produce 600 doctors a year, not 200 and don't.
I never hear the good doctors suggest that, I wonder why?


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## galway_blow_in (6 Feb 2019)

noproblem said:


> Just wondering did you not need a Dr's letter to go and see the consultant?



I have better than that, I'm being treated by a foot specialist in Dublin so the referal is from a consultant, can have injection itself anywhere


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## galway_blow_in (6 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> The GP's are out telling lies again I see.
> 
> They say that there is a shortage of GP's. That is patently untrue.
> They also said that about half of all graduates emigrate due to cuts in funding since the crash. That is also a lie.
> ...



I'm open to correction but I'm pretty sure I read an article by colm mc carthy several years ago where he claimed there is a cap on the number of GP, s who can set up a practice so as to keep a floor under fees ?

One thing I'm sure of is the GP sector are resistant to expanding their role in primary care as it involves investing heavily, in many Western countries, you can have an xray in a GP clinic, thus limiting the number of people who need to attend hospital, Irish GP, s invest in a stethoscope and a few magazines for the waiting room, everything else is treating the common cold or else referring onwards to hospital


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## noproblem (6 Feb 2019)

Very, very, true. Had an awful throat infection in Turkey some years ago and had to find a Dr. A local told me to go to a Turkish Dr's surgery, actually came with me to the door. Met by a nurse, spoke good English and was lovely and efficient, told me i'd have to wait about 30 mins. Dr walked out to greet me just as she spoke, he also had good English, told nurse to take bloods and explained to me that I would be put lying on a bed until he could get back to me and by then he would have blood results. Aprox 30 mins later he was back, with full diagnosis and medication and very kind to me, didn't want to let me go until I felt a bit better. Ok, it did cost me €175 and yes, they took Euro. My point is that this Dr in a small Turkish town had all the equipment in his surgery, he could also have taken X-Rays if needed. Irish GP's by comparison are tight and one can safely say very limited in what they have in their surgeries. Maybe they need a good wake up call and people should let them know that a hell of a lot more is expected off them for what they charge. Time when the professionals could pull the wool over peoples eyes should be long gone.
Perhaps it's time for the ordinary Joe Soap to go on strike and tell everyone complaining about  how good they have it.


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## Purple (6 Feb 2019)

I'm sure Irish GP's would be more than happy to expand their services... as long as someone else paid for it. They would of course take all the income for themselves but the taxpayer would have to stump up for the capital expenditure.
Of course GP's already get grants for capital items, grants to pay the salaries of their staff and very generous pensions. When they are listing off the money they get per medical card patient they tend to not mention those extras. Strange, that. 
This list shows payments to GP's nationally. The first column shows what the GP got paid. The second shows the total including "practice supports". Note; your GP doesn't have to have a GMS (Medical Card) list to receive payments as they get money for smear tests, pre and post-natal care etc. The list does not include their private patient income. 
If you download it and right-click you should be able to search for your own GP. Remember that Practice Income is not the same as personal income but for those who run their business out of a grotty room over a shop or a little extension at the side of their house their overheads will be very low. For those with a GMS list these payments do not include their very generous pension.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (6 Feb 2019)

Delboy said:


> Create more medical schools. End the closed shop that only lets people on 600+ points or whatever get into studying to become a doctor. Produce 600 doctors a year, not 200 and don't.
> I never hear the good doctors suggest that, I wonder why?



Ireland actually produces the highest number of medical graduates per capita in the OECD!

The issue is that EEA students (who are mainly Irish) get an incredibly expensive education for just €3,300 a year for six years. I haven't checked the numbers recently but the taxpayer will pay something like a quarter of a million euros for a medicine degree on top of what the student pays in fees.

At the end they have to work hard, but no doctor working full time in Ireland is outside the top 10% of income earners by the age of 35, and many will make it to the top 1%. Yes, they will pay a lot of tax, but there is a good case for making them pay a lot in extra fees too, particularly given that a significant minority will emigrate, make a lot of money abroad and not pay tax in Ireland.


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## Miakk (6 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> o address the first lie; there are about 200 GP graduates enter the system each year. Two thirds of those are women. The vast majority of them work part time and so they only add up to 110 full time GP's. The problem isn't that there aren't enough GP's. The problem is that they are so lazy and/or over paid that they only work a half day.


.....& there we have it, a nice little dose of misogyny


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## galway_blow_in (6 Feb 2019)

noproblem said:


> Very, very, true. Had an awful throat infection in Turkey some years ago and had to find a Dr. A local told me to go to a Turkish Dr's surgery, actually came with me to the door. Met by a nurse, spoke good English and was lovely and efficient, told me i'd have to wait about 30 mins. Dr walked out to greet me just as she spoke, he also had good English, told nurse to take bloods and explained to me that I would be put lying on a bed until he could get back to me and by then he would have blood results. Aprox 30 mins later he was back, with full diagnosis and medication and very kind to me, didn't want to let me go until I felt a bit better. Ok, it did cost me €175 and yes, they took Euro. My point is that this Dr in a small Turkish town had all the equipment in his surgery, he could also have taken X-Rays if needed. Irish GP's by comparison are tight and one can safely say very limited in what they have in their surgeries. Maybe they need a good wake up call and people should let them know that a hell of a lot more is expected off them for what they charge. Time when the professionals could pull the wool over peoples eyes should be long gone.
> Perhaps it's time for the ordinary Joe Soap to go on strike and tell everyone complaining about  how good they have it.



Sensing a potential end to their sheltered sector, GP, s have gone hell for leather in launching a propoganda campaign with a view to convincing the public that not only is there no money in it but that no one wants to become a GP either, they didn't drop their fees a red cent during the recessionary years and every business has to pay staff and insure their premises so spare us the poverty stories, that some long established GP, s have a sweeter deal re_ medical card contracts is another matter but I suspect an internal sector dispute


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## galway_blow_in (6 Feb 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Ireland actually produces the highest number of medical graduates per capita in the OECD!
> 
> The issue is that EEA students (who are mainly Irish) get an incredibly expensive education for just €3,300 a year for six years. I haven't checked the numbers recently but the taxpayer will pay something like a quarter of a million euros for a medicine degree on top of what the student pays in fees.
> 
> At the end they have to work hard, but no doctor working full time in Ireland is outside the top 10% of income earners by the age of 35, and many will make it to the top 1%. Yes, they will pay a lot of tax, but there is a good case for making them pay a lot in extra fees too, particularly given that a significant minority will emigrate, make a lot of money abroad and not pay tax in Ireland.



My sister in Dublin is engaged to a new yorker, he has a good job in finance but began work with 250 k in college loans, beit nurses or high earning consultants, many get a cheap as chips education which more than makes up for lower incomes than in the usa etc


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## noproblem (6 Feb 2019)

In any case, let's get back to the poor nurses.
For all the bad pay, conditions, exhaustion, etc, I don't see too many leaving. Bring back the Nuns, that'll teach them


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## Purple (7 Feb 2019)

Miakk said:


> .....& there we have it, a nice little dose of misogyny


Really, calling people out for not doing their job is misogyny?
Are suggesting that women can't work as hard or as long as men?
Are you suggesting that their place is in the home and that they should only work part time?
I find your comment deeply sexist.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (7 Feb 2019)

@Purple @Miakk 

I doubt that the 'vast majority' of female GPs work part time, although I am sure it is a substantial number. I am sure some male GPs work part time too.

The fact is that part-time work is great if you can get it, the problem is that it generally pays less per hour than full-time work for most people.

Parts of the medical profession - GPs and nursing for example - are very nice in that you can work part-time hours with the same hourly wage rate. Given that marginal tax rates are pretty heavy at the high end in Ireland, this is a very nice work-income-lifestyle balance that isn't available to people in most professions.


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## Purple (7 Feb 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> I doubt that the 'vast majority' of female GPs work part time, although I am sure it is a substantial number. I am sure some male GPs work part time too.
> 
> The fact is that part-time work is great if you can get it, the problem is that it generally pays less per hour than full-time work for most people.
> 
> Parts of the medical profession - GPs and nursing for example - are very nice in that you can work part-time hours with the same hourly wage rate. Given that marginal tax rates are pretty heavy at the high end in Ireland, this is a very nice work-income-lifestyle balance that isn't available to people in most professions.


2/3 of GP's are women.
More than half of GP hours worked are worked by male GP's.

200 GP's enter the system each year. So many work part time that they only fill 110 full time equivalent posts.
The problem is not that we don't have enough GP's. The problem is that we don't have enough GP's who are willing to work a full week. Given that the people of Ireland invest about a third of a million into the training of each GP the solution of paying them more and hiring more of them is a very expensive one which offers very poor value for money to the State.


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## Leper (7 Feb 2019)

This thread is about Nurses and their pay. But, GP's and their problems have ared to have sneaked in. Furthermore, its Fulltime GP and Part-Time GP.

All medical doctors have had to curtail their work, upgrade services, employ more staff, take in nurse(s) to the practice etc. What I knew to be a GP in my youth has considerably changed. The big game-changer is litigation. No GP can tell if the next patient is going to sue him/her out of existence.  Any GP doctor worth his/her salt would be at the receiving end of a huge claim at least once during the life of the practice.

Unfortunately, the country has got what it wished. Somebody must pay the legal eagles.


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## Purple (7 Feb 2019)

Leper said:


> All medical doctors have had to curtail their work, upgrade services, employ more staff, take in nurse(s) to the practice etc.


I go to a GP about once a year. I don't have a regular one as I am shopping around to find one I think is any good. In the last few years the practices have varied from large modern purpose built building with good equipment and nurses and receptionists to small grotty rooms with a single receptionist. If a doctor has a GMS list the State pays for additional staff, depending n the size of their list (number of medical card patients). That means that a moderately large practice will see their Nurse and Practice Manager pay for by the State. The amount per patient that the GP tells everyone they get is on top of that. When you divide the total amount GP's get under the GMS scheme and divide it by the total number of consultations they do they average per consultation was around €70 before the cuts. I think it is around €60 now. That doesn't include the value of their pension.


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## galway_blow_in (7 Feb 2019)

Leper said:


> This thread is about Nurses and their pay. But, GP's and their problems have ared to have sneaked in. Furthermore, its Fulltime GP and Part-Time GP.
> 
> All medical doctors have had to curtail their work, upgrade services, employ more staff, take in nurse(s) to the practice etc. What I knew to be a GP in my youth has considerably changed. The big game-changer is litigation. No GP can tell if the next patient is going to sue him/her out of existence.  Any GP doctor worth his/her salt would be at the receiving end of a huge claim at least once during the life of the practice.
> 
> Unfortunately, the country has got what it wished. Somebody must pay the legal eagles.



It's extremely rare for a doctor to be struck off, it's also extremely rare for a doctor to be found guilty of medical negligence.

They are about the biggest clique in the country, they don't Rob each others patients, let alone throw a colleague under the bus for something as trivial as medical negligence


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## Early Riser (7 Feb 2019)

Leper said:


> The big game-changer is litigation. No GP can tell if the next patient is going to sue him/her out of existence.



It seems there was a form of this even 200 years ago. From Frank McNally in todays Irish Times! -

_"In a travel book a few years later, A Frenchman’s Walk Through Ireland, Jacques Louis de Bourgenet describes meeting a freelance inoculator on a Mayo mountain road. The man, who had been bound for the priesthood until economic reverses deprived him of the education, had instead fallen back on medicine, earring up to £40 a year from the work.  


He amused de Bourgenet by explaining that the care he took was in part motivated by self-preservation: if he lost a patient, he would also lose the payment and probably get a beating into the bargain."  _

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...isease-that-robbed-him-of-his-sight-1.3784439


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## Early Riser (7 Feb 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> They are about the biggest clique in the country, they don't Rob each others patients, let alone throw a colleague under the bus for something as trivial as medical negligence



I think that trivialises it considerably. 
First there is defensive medicine to consider, both in terms of additional tests and procedures (often unnecessary), and also in terms of administration.
Then there is the cost of medical insurance.
There is the administrative time involved in preparing to defend any claim.
And there is the stress of the disciplinary system, even if vindicated.


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## Purple (7 Feb 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> They are about the biggest clique in the country, they don't Rob each others patients, let alone throw a colleague under the bus for something as trivial as medical negligence


It’s very hard to sanction anyone in any sector in this country for not doing their job properly but on the accusation that they are a cartel; yes, of course they are.


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## galway_blow_in (7 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> I go to a GP about once a year. I don't have a regular one as I am shopping around to find one I think is any good. In the last few years the practices have varied from large modern purpose built building with good equipment and nurses and receptionists to small grotty rooms with a single receptionist. If a doctor has a GMS list the State pays for additional staff, depending n the size of their list (number of medical card patients). That means that a moderately large practice will see their Nurse and Practice Manager pay for by the State. The amount per patient that the GP tells everyone they get is on top of that. When you divide the total amount GP's get under the GMS scheme and divide it by the total number of consultations they do they average per consultation was around €70 before the cuts. I think it is around €60 now. That doesn't include the value of their pension.





Purple said:


> It’s very hard to sanction anyone in any sector in this country for not doing their job properly but on the accusation that they are a cartel; yes, of course they are.



A cartel is different and related to price fixing, they are that too but culturally, they are incredibly cliquey, solicitors, mechanics, estate agents, you will on occasion hear them criticise a colleague, doctors never ever say anything but every single one of their fellow doctors are practically perfect in every way.


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## Purple (7 Feb 2019)

galway_blow_in said:


> doctors never ever say anything but every single one of their fellow doctors are practically perfect in every way.


 A bit like teachers then and the opposite of builders.
It would be gas, all the same, if your child went into a new class and the teacher started with the whole "Jasus, who did you get to teach then this stuff before? I wouldn't have done it like that, bleedin' cowboy" like builders do when you ask them to look at a job in your house.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (7 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> It’s very hard to sanction anyone in any sector in this country for not doing their job properly but on the accusation that they are a cartel; yes, of course they are.



The CPCC (formerly Competition Authority) actually went to the High Court a few years ago to stop the IMO from co-ordinating activities of its members as it had many of the features of cartel-like behaviour.


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## Purple (7 Feb 2019)

According to the department of Department of Public Expenditure and Reform the people of Ireland spend €2.16 billion a year paying the 37,520 Full Time Equivalent directly employed nurses and midwives in Ireland for an average pay of €57,602.

They go on to say that their 12% pay claim will cost circa €300 million a year.
12% of €2.16 billion is €259 million. Where did the other €41 million come from?
Source


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## Purple (7 Feb 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The CPCC (formerly Competition Authority) actually went to the High Court a few years ago to stop the IMO from co-ordinating activities of its members as it had many of the features of cartel-like behaviour.



They now have regional meeting to discuss clinical issues, the sorts of illnesses they are seeing and issues facing the profession... a short time later they'll all just happen to put up their prices by the same amount.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (7 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> They go on to say that their 12% pay claim will cost circa €300 million a year.
> 12% of €2.16 billion is €259 million. *Where did the other €41 million come from?*
> Source


Probably employers' PRSI


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## Purple (7 Feb 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Probably employers' PRSI


Yes, that's probably it.


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## RETIRED2017 (7 Feb 2019)

pension contributions + 12% extra to the already retired would bring it away above 300 million ,
When ye get a chance see how much the Garda pay rise costing away more than estimated the figures have being published in the last month of two,


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## Purple (7 Feb 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> pension contributions + 12% extra to the already retired would bring it away above 300 million ,


Very true. Nobody's mentioned the cost of increasing all the pensions.


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## noproblem (7 Feb 2019)

RETIRED2017 said:


> pension contributions + 12% extra to the already retired would bring it away above 300 million ,



Yes, but sure the way the Goverment do things with money they probable just rounded up that few million downwards, if you can understand my line of thought


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## Purple (11 Feb 2019)

So, taking the increase in pensions into account, the total cost of the nurses pay claim, after the expected contaigan across the State Sector, will be well north of a Billion Euro. In other words if we can resist this, and the INMO have the integrity to honour the wage agreement that they have already signed up to, we'll be able to build a new National Children's Hospital every 2 years.


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## Aph2016 (12 Feb 2019)

Fascinating reading through this thread. As someone said previously, looking through the payscale on the HSE website is a minefield of job types and grades and add in variables such as pension contributions, overtime, night shift, weekend rates and it's impossible to get the full picture. Who knows what to believe.


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## Delboy (12 Feb 2019)

Aph2016 said:


> Fascinating reading through this thread. As someone said previously, looking through the payscale on the HSE website is a minefield of job types and grades and add in variables such as pension contributions, overtime, night shift, weekend rates and it's impossible to get the full picture. Who knows what to believe.


Now you know why that after spending €220m on the PPARS system, it had to be abandoned


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## Purple (12 Feb 2019)

Delboy said:


> Now you know why that after spending €220m on the PPARS system, it had to be abandoned


In a private company which had to make a profit, and that profit secured the jobs of the people who worked there, a proposal to simplify the contract/grades/payroll system in order to save tens of millions without costing the employees a cent would be accepted without a murmur. In the unionised HSE such changes will never happen because their jobs are safe no matter what and sure wasting money just kills people.


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## Aph2016 (13 Feb 2019)

So a registered nurse earns €29,346 and after a few weeks they move to €31,110. Monthly Net income of €2,185 not taking into account pension contributions and pension levy etc. Doesn't seem so bad to me. I've heard quite a few people say "ah they're only on €24,000 a year" but in reality that's only for a matter of weeks. 

Sure now the teachers want an increase...


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## Purple (13 Feb 2019)

Aph2016 said:


> So a registered nurse earns €29,346 and after a few weeks they move to €31,110.


When allowances etc are taken into account it is significantly higher than that.
As a friend put it when the Gardai were on strike, "Don't tell me what you earn, show me your P60".


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Feb 2019)

There is very little point for the multiplicity of pay scales in the public service - HSE is a particularly bad example.

The unions love complexity and actively encourage it, in the same way that tax consultants love loopholes. 

It means that staff in many cases the staff can't even understand their own entitlements, hence the need for unions to help them out.


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## Leo (13 Feb 2019)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> HSE is a particularly bad example



The hospitals that have merged over the years are a great example of this, with staff still on contract T&Cs from their original hospital and any streamlining vigorously resisted unless it comes with a pot of money.


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## Firefly (13 Feb 2019)

Purple said:


> When allowances etc are taken into account it is significantly higher than that.
> As a friend put it when the Gardai were on strike, "Don't tell me what you earn, show me your P60".



Very good!!!


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