# Kitchen Extension Cost



## Ubik

We are looking at getting our kitchen extended and wondered what our budget of 40k would cover and would it be enough for the following:

Single story 40m (The max before planning permission is needed)
basically knocking down one wall and extending out by three walls, with a support I presume? 
Nothing fancy, no heated flooring etc
painted and finished to blend in with the house
I have seen reference to build quality, what is meant exactly by that?
Obviously we want a good job doing that is going to last.
The only special bit would be an area created by plasterboard for a utility room.
The kitchen would be from ikea or similiar cheap model
2 sides and the roof would probably need a lot of glass to allow light, but one side would be against a neighbouring wall so probably all brick.
Double doors to access garden

I've seen people like Dermot Bannon mentioned, would they bother with this or be too expensive. I want to use an architect as they would offer the best ideas hopefully for the space

Excuse me if I havent mentioned something but I really have no idea how all this works. This will be a big project for us, so I want to get right as the result will affect us for years.
So any useful information you have would be very welcome

thanks


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## seantheman

What part of Ireland?


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## Ubik

seantheman said:


> What part of Ireland?



Navan, Meath


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## Trilogy 1982

I dont think you will get a quality finish on a 40m2 (Thats a monster kitchen by the way) extension for €40k.

Costs involved:
Structural Engineer
Architect
Groundworks
Blocklaying
Roofing
Windows & Doors
Velux Windows
Plastering
Insulation
Wiring
Plumbing
Kitchen 
Kitchen Appliances
Taps
Tiling
Painting
Second Fix Carpentry

Build quality is what you will lose out on by skimping on costs. It refers to the quality of the workmanship and unfortunately good price and good quality do not always go hand in hand.

Talk to an architect. Get a plan. Get prices from a few reputable builders. Look very closely at what is and what is NOT included in the price. Make sure they specify what type of materials are being used (insulation, slates, glazing etc.) Get references and CHECK them.


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## Ubik

Thanks for that.
Its actually not just a kitchen ext, its to be an open plan kitchen\diner\playroom\tv lounge!

I guess thats part of why you need an architect. For his ideas and expertise and to listen to your needs and then advise accordingly. We may not need all that space, especially as its 40m PLUS what we already have.(5.35m x 3.30m). We just naturally went to the max, but thinking about it now, theres probably a better way of getting the extra space we want and getting a quality build.

So next question, recommended architects suitable for this kind of small domestic job?

thanks


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## onq

Tons of architects out there and not a few lurking on AAM.

As regards costs, depending on the construction you should do it for between €85 and €100 a square foot.

The outside numbers will range from a suspicious low of €65/sq.ft. and a mad high of €120/sq.ft.-150/sq.ft.-plus.

So your range at 40 sq.m. [~430.sq.ft.] is approximately €27,950 to €64,500 broken down as follows; -
Very low [€65/sq.ft.] = €27,950

Tight [€85/sq.ft.] = €36,550

Good Finish [€100/sq.ft.] = €43,000

Silly Money [€120-150 plus] = €51,600 - €64.500
​Expect fees to be in the 10% range - the bigger the job, the lower the percentage fee usually.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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## Firefly

Hi Onq,

Are those costings for a "builders finish" only or would they cover a standard kitchen etc?

Thanks
F


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## Ubik

Many thanks for that onq, exactly what I was looking for.

It seems the choice of architect is just as important as the choice of builder.
What sort of questions should I be asking?
Some builders such as Rival Construction
(Who we will be askign a quote from, so any feedback about them would be great) also offer an in house architect's services. How does that work, would they be impatial (if thats important?)

many thanks


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## wbbs

I dont think Dermot Bannon would get out of bed for a budget like that!


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## Ubik

wbbs said:


> I dont think Dermot Bannon would get out of bed for a budget like that!


 
Well I could go on about how thats part of the problem with this country. And how some people may not have realised that the glory over-pricing days are over.
To me, 40k is an awful lot of money, especially when you consider the banks just arent lending (believe me I've tried)
But that would take it off topic and I'm just looking for advice to spend my miserley 40k!


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## kkelliher

As you can spend €20k on a kitchen alone its a case of how long is a piece of string.

As always Total Cost = Total cost of putting into the build the finish that you want

This may sound unhelpful but it is reality as no two extensions are identical unless on the same house on the same ground type laid out and finished exactly the same.

A simple thing like tiles can send the cost per ft2 mad. An antislp rated tile can cost 5 times the price of a standard ceramic off the shelf budget foor tile, 40m2 of tiles can show up a hugh difference in the ft2 cost as a result.

You should sit down and cost/budget against each finish you want in order to give you a better idea.

In relation to the Dermot Bannon and others generally be careful with budgets as you will see from the programme that they never get the money costs very right......this is the same in practice

best of luck with your project


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## wobbie

Hi Ubik,

Just read your post and it is exactly the same position that i myself am in. We are also based in Meath (Bettystown) and plan on getting rear extension of roughly 30 / 35 m2 done this summer.
I don't want to spend good money on an architect for a job this size when no planning will be required and we already know what we want regarding layout , design etc.
I had a look at the rival construction website and they do look like what i need. 
I will let you know what other companies / private builders i am getting in for quotes.
Would you be so kind as to let me know what other companies / private builders you are looking at.
We may even use the same company and get a discount !!!

Thanks
Wobbie


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## wbbs

Ubik, totally agree.   Was trying to do kitchen extension myself 3 yrs ago, same concept, push out back wall but only by 6' and 16' long.  Got quote for 30k just to take out back wall & put up new walls and roof, no actual kitchen, heating, painting or anything else included, just walls, windows & roof.   Needless to say I have no new kitchen!


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## onq

Firefly said:


> Hi Onq,
> 
> Are those costings for a "builders finish" only or would they cover a standard kitchen etc?
> 
> Thanks
> F



We costed a house in the dublin area for that kind of money.

Its swings and roundabouts - the foundations do more work on a house but the marrying in of the extension and the propping and beams and modifying the services all cost a relative fortune.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.


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## onq

wbbs said:


> Ubik, totally agree.   Was trying to do kitchen extension myself 3 yrs ago, same concept, push out back wall but only by 6' and 16' long.  Got quote for 30k just to take out back wall & put up new walls and roof, no actual kitchen, heating, painting or anything else included, just walls, windows & roof.   Needless to say I have no new kitchen!




I presume your costs was builders work only - that was 2007.

You might be pleasantly surprised at current prices.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.


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## onq

wobbie said:


> Hi Ubik,
> 
> Just read your post and it is exactly the same position that i myself am in. We are also based in Meath (Bettystown) and plan on getting rear extension of roughly 30 / 35 m2 done this summer.
> I don't want to spend good money on an architect for a job this size when no planning will be required and we already know what we want regarding layout , design etc.
> I had a look at the rival construction website and they do look like what i need.
> I will let you know what other companies / private builders i am getting in for quotes.
> Would you be so kind as to let me know what other companies / private builders you are looking at.
> We may even use the same company and get a discount !!!
> 
> Thanks
> Wobbie




Wobbie,

All I can say is you won't know what you're missing, but if you're certain you're up to this without a professional representative, go ahead.

Who's authorising the draw down in money from the financier?
Who's issuing compliance certificates for the completed work?

An engineer is limited by the terms of his PI cover to structural matters only.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.


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## onq

Ubik said:


> Well I could go on about how thats part of the problem with this country. And how some people may not have realised that the glory over-pricing days are over.
> To me, 40k is an awful lot of money, especially when you consider the banks just arent lending (believe me I've tried)
> But that would take it off topic and I'm just looking for advice to spend my miserley 40k!



I know its a lot of money to get together without a loan.
I'm told Ulster Bank are lending again and you might want to give them a call.
€40K isn't a lot of money for a 400 sq.ft extension - that works out at €100 per sq.ft .
€80-100 per sq.ft was the range I suggested would be achievable.
That is way low compared to 2005-2007 levels when €150-200 per sq.ft was the norm.
See my other reply.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.


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## onq

Ubik said:


> Many thanks for that onq, exactly what I was looking for.
> 
> It seems the choice of architect is just as important as the choice of builder.
> What sort of questions should I be asking?
> Some builders such as Rival Construction
> (Who we will be askign a quote from, so any feedback about them would be great) also offer an in house architect's services. How does that work, would they be impatial (if thats important?)
> 
> many thanks



Hi Ubik

I cannot recommend in-house services for small works in the present climate, nor should architects or indeed engineers be offering themselves tied to builders.

The most a builder should do is offer you names for consideration of three architect's he's worked with before for you to consider, but this is all backwards.

Here are the reasons for my comments.

Disputes often arise during the build and after, in relation to a whole variety of things.

An architect is retained by you as an independent professional to look after your interests in the sense that he insures matters proceed competently and in a timely manner and all payments are vetted.

While the architect must act impartially in the administration of the contract, its more than likely he will be spending a lot of his time pressing the builder 

- to complete in a timely manner, 

- to attain a prescribed standard in the built work

 As well as resisting overpayment for work done at any point in the programme.

If your architect fails in these duties you will end up paying loads for "extras", to a mediocre standard.

I know nothing about Rival Construction.

In relation to question to ask your architect read this Key Post.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=131450

In relation to general matters on self build you could read this post.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=126261


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon   as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be   taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in   Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at   hand.


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## wbbs

Onq - yes I know I would probably get better quote now but the redundancy fairy has visited and I cant take a chance on spending money I might need to live on.

I remember at the time I told the builder come back when he was hungrier.


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## Ubik

onq said:


> Hi Ubik
> 
> I cannot recommend in-house services for small works in the present climate, nor should architects or indeed engineers be offering themselves tied to builders.
> 
> The most a builder should do is offer you names for consideration of three architect's he's worked with before for you to consider, but this is all backwards.
> 
> Here are the reasons for my comments.
> 
> Disputes often arise during the build and after, in relation to a whole variety of things.
> 
> An architect is retained by you as an independent professional to look after your interests in the sense that he insures matters proceed competently and in a timely manner and all payments are vetted.
> 
> While the architect must act impartially in the administration of the contract, its more than likely he will be spending a lot of his time pressing the builder
> 
> - to complete in a timely manner,
> 
> - to attain a prescribed standard in the built work
> 
> As well as resisting overpayment for work done at any point in the programme.
> 
> If your architect fails in these duties you will end up paying loads for "extras", to a mediocre standard.
> 
> I know nothing about Rival Construction.
> 
> In relation to question to ask your architect read this Key Post.
> 
> 
> In relation to general matters on self build you could read this post.
> 
> 
> 
> ONQ.
> 
> 
> All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
> Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


 
Wow, that is a fantastic reply ONQ, thank you very much. (as are all your replies)
I absolutely intend on using an architect. I have no problem paying for quality work, especially as it has to last for years, its just getting the right balance of money to finish. Obviously, with getting a certificate etc, you would expect even on a low or medium finish, the structure to be safe and lasting. I think thats what most people are afraid of when getting building work done. Apart from the kitchen, it will be a "shell" for a while whilst we then save up to furnish and finish it.
Talking to friends, the first thing they say is "Oh I wish we had got an architect in, as it didnt quite turn out the way we thought it would!"
You've put my mind at rest that we can achieve the build we want within our budget if we shop around and do the research properly, so thanks for that.
We hope to get it all kicked off when the summer school holidays start to minimise disruption, so by doing the research now, we should have everything arranaged before that.

Thanks again, your a top bloke!


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## Firefly

Ubik said:


> "Oh I wish we had got an architect in, as it didnt quite turn out the way we thought it would!"



I've heard this too, or (if an architect wasn't used)..."If *I* was to do this again then I'd have this there and this somewhere else". I've been in several houses designed by architects and you can really tell the difference.


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## Firefly

onq said:


> We costed a house in the dublin area for that kind of money.
> 
> Its swings and roundabouts - the foundations do more work on a house but the marrying in of the extension and the propping and beams and modifying the services all cost a relative fortune.
> 
> ONQ.
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken.
> Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.



Thanks for that!


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## wobbie

Damn you ONQ

I was quite happy to go along and do this small project without an architect...

However you planted a seed of doubt in my mind and it won't stop growing.

What if i haven't got the best possible use of space ?
What if my design ideas are not all they could be ?
What if i choose the wrong builder etc.

Anyhow if someone can recommend a suitable architect for small extension up in North Dublin / Meath area please send on details....

Many Thanks
Wobbie


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## onq

wbbs said:


> Onq - yes I know I would probably get better quote now but the redundancy fairy has visited and I cant take a chance on spending money I might need to live on.
> 
> I remember at the time I told the builder come back when he was hungrier.




wbbs,

You're perfectly correct to cut your cloth according to your measure and I realise that people cannot always shoose exactly when to extend their homes in response to familial or personal requirements - these things happen!
While I'm not advocating either the "do it and we'll pay for it somehow" or "build it any way you can and sure it'll do" schools of thought I am saying that money spent on design can usefull challenge your concept of what you need.

Let me use this to illustrate the different between a good technician and a good architect.

A good technician will offer you an integrated set of drawings responding to the brief you've set up for the price you pay him. They will allow you to go to tender on and probably build your design.
A good architect will start further back - perhaps by investigate your living requirements - and may ask you to reconsider your ambitions for your property and in particular whether bigger is best or is it just an expensive way to get more wasted space.

Typically houses are built with insufficient service and storage areas, but the danger is people add these on ( see below) compromising the existing house and possible later development

I've posted elsewhere in the past month about Donaghy + Dimond architects and how their minimal extension and internal and rear-of-house opening up totally transformed a period property in Ranelagh.
The house was tailored to the needs of the family at present, with an attic conversion and a living/family/kitchen arrangements which could be wholly opened out to the paved area.
The money went into supporting beams and the full height doors and massively improved the amenity of the house while at teh same time catering to a more modern lifestyle with young kids.
It lined up with my own thinking that simple forms and expressions of a modest size can work wonders and the mkind of extensions I'm reading abotu on thsi thread fall within that definition.

(no, I have ABSOLUTELY no connection to these guys - I saw their work, their philosophy and I was impressed)

I suppose what I'm working around to saying is that you have to do what you must now, but consider where you might be going later on and don't compromised you house's later development by what you do now.
That's a broad statement and I cannt really give any detailed pointers but the primciple is don't get in your own way.

One principle is try to avoid putting services extensions onto the back of the property where they get in teh way of access to the private open space and create dark areas within the house.
Better to go to the extra trouble now of digging up the floors and putting in the services [or at least locating them centrally on an outside wall (if you get my drif) and allowing no obstructions to the rear wall - this paves teh way for future extensions and additions.

Another principle is the idea od courtyards where, if there is such an impediment, you push out a link and form a courtyard with a pavilion beyond it. This can have benefits if the new accommodation is super insulated and sealed - you can access it through and internal door that prevents the new standarxds of sealing and heat retention being compromised by the older construction.

Food for some more thought perhaps.
Do lots of thinking before you spend money, particularly where you have only a little to spend.
The more thinking you do about how you live and what you want to achieve - at this time in your liives - the more sustainable your building and finances will become.



ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon   as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be   taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in   Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at   hand.


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## onq

wobbie said:


> Damn you ONQ
> 
> I was quite happy to go along and do this small project without an architect...
> 
> However you planted a seed of doubt in my mind and it won't stop growing.
> 
> What if i haven't got the best possible use of space ?
> What if my design ideas are not all they could be ?
> What if i choose the wrong builder etc.
> 
> Anyhow if someone can recommend a suitable architect for small extension up in North Dublin / Meath area please send on details....
> 
> Many Thanks
> Wobbie




Ahh yes, damned if you do and damned if you don't, wobbie.
That seed of doubt is not intended to demotivate you or set you up for being fleeced of your hard earned money.
I intended to plant it to help you consider the possible benefits of working with an architect - and not everyon may benefit from such an arrangement.

The important thing is to choose the right architect for you.
Architects differ widely, both terms of design and attitude to client and work.
Apart from a basic level of competence, there are wide variations and you should interview say three for the position.
No point working with a genius if he puts the heart crossways in you at every meeting and cannot keep to a budget to save his life.
That being said I'm not advocating endless no-foal no fee interviews and I would respecftully suggest you offer to pay a nominal amout for "petrol money".

Also, will your archtiect fit himself to your needs as oppsoed to his ambitions for his portfolio - very few people could stand the vast acres of glass and minimal shelf space in some "Modern" works - to exposed and not functional enough.

Allow me to elaborate by taking a look at a design term often applied to houses - "clean and functional".
There is nothing "clean and functional" in existence - that's just surface beauty - think of the muscles, nerves, bones and tendons under skin.
A fluidly handling motor car has a multiplicity of things going on "under the bonnet" to yield performance, never mind the complex latent features in the crumple zones and ABS.

The last thing a house can be is bare walls, because people gather "things" to live with, none more so than small kids and messy adults [about 80% of humanity falls within these definitions, including me!].
So a pristine building with white walls and no storage space is a disaster waiting to happen - it'll end up looking like a rubbish tip if it doesn't have storage solutions and unless these are considered early on, they can blow a hole in your budget.
If you forget them you will wonder exactly where all that very expensive extra space you've just built went to if you're extending - and how that huge house you built managed to shrink so quickly if its a new build.
So for function to look clean in use, it needs to look more cluttered on plan with served and servant spaces, built in storage, storage rooms and floored attics and sometimes outhouses/sheds for bikes and stuff.

Otherwise the kids toys last a year when they should be seeing three or five depending on their ages and we end up consuming more when we should be saving.
Similarly the mesmerising perspective soon palls if you decide you cannot bear nature 25/7/365 and put up net curtains - this should have been considered.

A well designed house should allow you to organise your life efficiently and economically.
Just be wary about proposals with "clean lines" on plan.



ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon    as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be    taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in    Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at    hand.


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