# Credit Union Withdrawal from elderly woman's account made by in-law



## Cheated (5 Oct 2019)

What are the credit union rules for an" inlaw" to transfer large amounts from  an 83 yrs old women (credit union account to a bank account) (and then making withdrawals with an atm card ) in a nursing home unable to care for herself and unable to write The in -law provided signed letter from the old woman to allow the withdrawal it was not witnessed and was hand written by the person making the withdrawal  it appears to be a forged signature.
 Do the credit union not verify the signature and request a  witness to the signature before releasing the money


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## Slim (5 Oct 2019)

It depends on when the consent was presented. In recent years, medical evidence or witnessed document is usually required.


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## Brendan Burgess (6 Oct 2019)

Have you notified the Garda? 

Brendan


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## Threadser (6 Oct 2019)

Have you spoken to the in-law or her spouse who presumably is a sibling requesting clarification as to why this is being done? This could be how the nursing home fees are being paid. If you are not getting satisfactory information then contact the gardai.


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## Cheated (6 Oct 2019)

Thank you our mother passed away while in the nursing home The consent was presented 3 yrs ago I am the administrator we cannot find a will the sister in- law phoned on the day  our mother was buried and informed me that she and my brother will not be talking to us again 
The credit union claim the ,money was withdrawn to pay the nursing home but I check the nursing home is paid through fair deal program
She eventually emptied the credit union completely of €8600.00 in 12 months and €6400.00from the Ban Account using the debit card and also let out 2 rooms in our mothers home while she was in the home and we were unaware she collected €8000.00 cash for the let
We contacted the free legal advise bureau and were told due to our mother's death there is very little that can be done it would cost more to go to court for justice. Also they advised the police would not help when the person has passed away


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## Threadser (6 Oct 2019)

Sorry for your loss and the difficult situation in which you find yourself. It is a stressful time without having to deal with this additional upset. If your mother owned her own home then it is unlikely that the fair deal scheme would have covered the full amount of fees as she would have been required to pay 80% of her income and an additional amount equivalent to 21% of the value of her home (total) to cover the cost of fees for the first 3 years. If there was rental income from the house then there would have been an obligation to pay 80% of that to the nursing home too as it would be counted as additional income for your mother.  Were you involved when your mother was moving into full time care  or was the entire matter sorted by your brother and sister in law? Unfortunately many families fall out over situations like this as accusations fly over some siblings not contributing, doing their fair share of the care, etc etc . I hope you get this sorted but it is not hopeful as communication seems to have broken down completely. Who paid the funeral expenses and how were you made aware of being an administrator of the estate if the will cannot be found?


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## Cheated (6 Oct 2019)

Hi I arranged the fair deal and had our mothers house valued recently paid the revenue €40000.00 for the fair deal with the sale of the house I paid for the funeral €6800.00 part life insurance and the remainder cash The problem our brother and wife have cleaned out our mothers accounts unaware to the family as they claimed they were looking after her finical interests they also tried to claim the death benefit insurance and signed the death cert we were unable to get any info from the Bank and CU as thet nomenicated the sister in-law as the point of contact there is also a medical bill outstanding which they said was paid untrue as administratot I am trying to reconsile my mothers finical accounts they haver got a solicitor and any further contact is to be true him we need advise what to do


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## Threadser (6 Oct 2019)

The whole situation sounds very complicated. When you arranged the fair deal did you arrange how the payment of 80% of her income was to be made and did anyone have power of attourney? I presume probate has been granted if the house sale has gone through? The solicitor who handled the probate might advise how to proceed. If there is no will then your sibling will be entitled to their share of the house sale. Perhaps you could subtract the amount taken from your mother's accounts from his portion of the proceeds of the sale but you obviously you need proper legal advice.


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## Cheated (6 Oct 2019)

I applied to be administrator through the court of the estate as nobody else would take it on 
Our mother had a widows pension plus our late father pension the short fall from Fair was paid by DD monthly 
Our solicitor tells me under the secession act our brother is entitled to a full share of the property and there is no point trying to follow the money our sister in law withdrew any amount less than €20000.00 is not worth it but we are sickened by their conduct and feel they should return the money to the family However they  were very clever they told the people that rented the 2 rooms not to talk to us The outstanding medical bill will talk to us as we are not the nominated person I told I will pay the bill the bank will not talk to us same story again We have reached the bottom and now we have to pay them filling the sale of the house Sick


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## Threadser (6 Oct 2019)

Sometimes you have to draw a line under things and move on for the sake of your own sanity. If you highlight the renting of the rooms in the house then you could be liable for extra tax to be taken out of the estate. You brother is entitled to his share of the inheritance if there is no will. It is a pity that you didn't arrange to be a co-signature on your mother's accounts but hindsight is a great thing


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## Feemar5 (6 Oct 2019)

I wonder how the rent was paid - I suspect cash.   If it was a bank transfer to either of them Revenue could follow it .  My late mother used to say when she heard of something like this " they won't have much luck for it".  Move on with your own life and try and forget about it.


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## noproblem (6 Oct 2019)

Sorry to say this but you might be facing another problem with your brother if there's no will and you 2 are the only children. He would be entitled to half of everything I'd imagine.


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## Cheated (7 Oct 2019)

Feemar5 said:


> I wonder how the rent was paid - I suspect cash.   If it was a bank transfer to either of them Revenue could follow it .  My late mother used to say when she heard of something like this " they won't have much luck for it".  Move on with your own life and try and forget about it.


Thank you


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## Cheated (7 Oct 2019)

noproblem said:


> Sorry to say this but you might be facing another problem with your brother if there's no will and you 2 are the only children. He would be entitled to half of everything I'd imagine.


Thank you it appears the advice most people give it’s a shame they got away with €21000.00 from our mothers accounts they did not leave enough to pay for her funeral


noproblem said:


> Sorry to say this but you might be facing another problem with your brother if there's no will and you 2 are the only children. He would be entitled to half of everything I'd imagine.


Your correct his wife wants their share


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2019)

Cheated said:


> Thank you it appears the advice most people give it’s a shame they got away with €21000.00 from our mothers accounts they did not leave enough to pay for her funeral
> 
> Your correct his wife wants their share


Your posts are not fully clear.  There is enough money to pay the funeral expenses as there is the mother's home.  So it is incorrect to look at it as there was not enough money left to pay for the funeral.  I was in the same situation as executor and there was no money so I just paid it myself and recouped it after the house was sold. 

Your brother is entitled to his share of the inheritance.  You do not know if your late mother wished her son and DIL to have access to the money in the CU.  Maybe they did use it to pay something towards the nursing home as I'm aware there are extra costs that the governement does not pay for.  Were they living in the house before your mother went into the home.  My thinking on them renting out rooms is that at least someone was looking after the house and costs associated with it so that when your mother died the property was in a saleable condition.


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2019)

Threadser said:


> . Perhaps you could subtract the amount taken from your mother's accounts from his portion of the proceeds of the sale but you obviously you need proper legal advice.



You can't be doing that as the OP has no proof of anything underhand.  The solicitor has already advised that it's not worth purshing the 20K so the OP needs to forget about it.  And the OP should just divide the estate after costs (medical bill, estate agent, solicitor)


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## twofor1 (8 Oct 2019)

Cheated said:


> it’s a shame they got away with €21000.00 from our mothers accounts



Are you sure they got away with €21,000 from your mothers accounts ?

You say your mother signed consent 3 years ago so presumably your mother was in a nursing home for 3 years or thereabouts.
It is easy to see how €21,000 *might *have been legitimately spent over this time.

Fair Deal does not cover activity charges which are typically €3,000 annually, in some homes substantially more.

Your mother would have had additional charges such as hairdressing, prescription charges, possibly charges for outings, samples couriered to labs, hip protectors, the list of possibilities is endless.

Did your mother need physiotherapy, chiropody, dental etc, none of which are covered under Fair Deal.

One of my relations in a nursing home still has VHI costing €2,000 annually.

Another smoked, that cost €70 weekly. (€3,500 annually)

One needed a specialist chair that cost €5,000.

Your mother would have needed shoes, clothes, toiletries etc.

Then there is house insurance, maintenance, utilities, property tax.

Is it possible that the cash in the bank and credit union together with the rent could have been legitimately spent and this is why your brother and sister in law are aggrieved enough to fall out with family and employ a solicitor ?


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

Cheated said:


> Thank you


Cash to our brother he said he paid in
on utilities €800/month


Cheated said:


> What are the credit union rules for an" inlaw" to transfer large amounts from  an 83 yrs old women (credit union account to a bank account) (and then making withdrawals with an atm card ) in a nursing home unable to care for herself and unable to write The in -law provided signed letter from the old woman to allow the withdrawal it was not witnessed and was hand written by the person making the withdrawal  it appears to be a forged signature.
> Do the credit union not verify the signature and request a  witness to the signature before releasing the money


You Re correct in you assumptions the credit union send me a copy of the letter giving permission for the withdrawal it was hand written by the in law and my mother’s signature did not appears to be hers as her hands were always shakin also there was second letter with permission sighted by a totally different signature they told the credit union the money was to pay nursing home fee the first amount was withdrawn in the first 6 week of her going into the home and 3 months the remainder all the money in the bank was withdraw over 2 yrs on a debit card They even took out €50.00 on the day we buried our mother all advise appears to let it go


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2019)

If your mother's hands were shaking then how can you tell if it was not a genuine signature.  

Did Fair Deal cover all nursing home care for your mother - 100%.  Were there any extras that had to be paid?


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

twofor1 said:


> Are you sure they got away with €21,000 from your mothers accounts ?
> 
> You say your mother signed consent 3 years ago so presumably your mother was in a nursing home for 3 years or thereabouts.
> It is easy to see how €21,000 *might *have been legitimately spent over this time.
> ...


Hi Thank you she had a medical card it paid medication I have statements from the nursing home there was only a weekly charge for to have her hair cut etc she did get a special chair €500.00 subsidised by the medical card She also had private health care that paid for when a doctor visit was required I asked them for receipts and was told they did not keep I ask for bank card to check for a statement and was told the bank does not send statements and they cut up the debit card I asked for the credit union book and was told they don’t know where it is Following these questions they said they would not be talking to me again


Cheated said:


> What are the credit union rules for an" inlaw" to transfer large amounts from  an 83 yrs old women (credit union account to a bank account) (and then making withdrawals with an atm card ) in a nursing home unable to care for herself and unable to write The in -law provided signed letter from the old woman to allow the withdrawal it was not witnessed and was hand written by the person making the withdrawal  it appears to be a forged signature.
> Do the credit union not verify the signature and request a  witness to the signature before releasing the money





Bronte said:


> Your posts are not fully clear.  There is enough money to pay the funeral expenses as there is the mother's home.  So it is incorrect to look at it as there was not enough money left to pay for the funeral.  I was in the same situation as executor and there was no money so I just paid it myself and recouped it after the house was sold.
> 
> Your brother is entitled to his share of the inheritance.  You do not know if your late mother wished her son and DIL to have access to the money in the CU.  Maybe they did use it to pay something towards the nursing home as I'm aware there are extra costs that the governement does not pay for.  Were they living in the house before your mother went into the home.  My thinking on them renting out rooms is that at least someone was looking after the house and costs associated with it so that when your mother died the property was in a saleable condition.


Thank you I did pay for the funeral my self and waiting on the return from the sale of the house they did pay some small personnel charges to the home there was no cost to keep the house when it was vacant except house insurance but when they let out the 2 rooms they claimed the rental paid for the utilities and there was nothing over
It looks like it will cost to much to get the money back now


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2019)

Cheated said:


> Hi Thank you she had a medical card it paid medication I have statements from the nursing home there was only a weekly charge for to have her hair cut etc she did get a special chair €500.00 subsidised by the medical card


Who paid for the hair cut etc? How much was it?

It's not a good idea to leave a house vacant for 3 years, it's much better that someone lives in it and takes care of it.  Did the medical card pay the full €500?

So your brother and SIL stopped speaking to you after your mother died when you asked them for receipts for the last 3 years. Who looked after the house and why were you not involved.


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## twofor1 (8 Oct 2019)

Cheated said:


> She also had private health care



I forgot about that, one of my relations in a nursing home still has VHI costing, €2,000 annually. I will edit my post.


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2019)

twofor1 said:


> I forgot about that, one of my relations in a nursing home still has VHI costing, €2,000 annually. I will edit my post.


So does that mean the deceased had her premiums to be paid.  Who paid them then.


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## twofor1 (8 Oct 2019)

If the deceased had private healthcare, someone was paying it.

In my relations case, I paid the VHI from my relations account.

I administered affairs for two of my elderly relations who were or are still in nursing homes under Fair Deal, paid all their bills etc from their accounts.

In addition to their basic assessed contribution under Fair Deal, each would have spent more than €7,000 annually on legitimate costs.

That’s why I ask the question, is the O/p sure family members got away with €21,000 over 3 years.

Could this money have been spent for legitimate reasons.


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2019)

twofor1 said:


> I administered affairs for two of my elderly relations who were or are still in nursing homes under Fair Deal, paid all their bills etc from their accounts.



All I know is that my deceased uncle had extra costs that had to be paid for.  My late mother and her sisters were managing this. Plus there was a house to be looked after.  They arranged the ESB to be paid, the insurance, gardening. And I know they often bought him stuff to the home, like clothing or food etc.  But I also clearly remember thinking it was amazing he was entitled to whatever the state would give but you still had to pay extra on top.  And of course he had to be buried but I can't remember how that was paid but there was no money or he didn't own the house as he only had a life interest.


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## AlbacoreA (8 Oct 2019)

This could have been resolved if you set up a joint account together and paid all the bills through that.
kept all receipts and done annual accounts. So the question is why did no one do this. 



Cheated said:


> What are the credit union rules for an" inlaw" to transfer large amounts from  an 83 yrs old women (credit union account to a bank account) (and then making withdrawals with an atm card ) in a nursing home unable to care for herself and unable to write The in -law provided signed letter from the old woman to allow the withdrawal it was not witnessed and was hand written by the person making the withdrawal  it appears to be a forged signature.
> Do the credit union not verify the signature and request a  witness to the signature before releasing the money



I would be surprised if the CU did this. I had to do something similar and even as nominated on the account, we had to provide all sorts of ID. To get this set up we needed to bring the account holder in person. When this was  was not possible we needed a letter from the solicitor acting as administrator.


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## AlbacoreA (8 Oct 2019)

There's also other costs like property tax, house insurance etc. all this has to be paid. Who paid all that.


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Have you notified the Garda?
> 
> Brendan


The police have no interest in the problem because our mother has passed away


AlbacoreA said:


> This could have been resolved if you set up a joint account together and paid all the bills through that.
> kept all receipts and done annual accounts. So the question is why did no one do this.
> 
> 
> ...


Our SIL told us she would after our mother’s affairs while she was in the home I was working overseas for 3 yrs so therefore it seem like a good idea to let her look after the accounts The Credit Union gave out 3 lumps on 3 occasions on the basis of the hand written letter by our SIL with our mothers supposed Sig to give her permission to make the withdrawals no witness to the signature by the home etc One question the money is gone but we would like to see where it was spent ie receipts but we were told by our SIL. She did not keep receipts we know we are now flogging a dead horse but other people beware of a similar situation Thank you for your response


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## AlbacoreA (8 Oct 2019)

I wonder is there some regularity authority you could complaint to about the CU actions. 
Though I don't think it would recover any money at this point. 
Seems very little money to fall out out over, or indeed to go to all that effort to get. 
But then I've heard a good few similar stories. No uncommon. 

I suspect there was some bitterness about having being left to it. Regardless of what was said at the time. 
But I'm always wary of people who are reluctant to keep figures on what they are doing.


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## AlbacoreA (8 Oct 2019)

I think you have to decide to filter the positives in life not the negatives.


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

AlbacoreA said:


> This could have been resolved if you set up a joint account together and paid all the bills through that.
> kept all receipts and done annual accounts. So the question is why did no one do this.
> 
> 
> ...


So are we I would have thought they would have required verification of the signature sine she was 86 when she was supposed to have signed the note


AlbacoreA said:


> I wonder is there some regularity authority you could complaint to about the CU actions.
> Though I don't think it would recover any money at this point.
> Seems very little money to fall out out over, or indeed to go to all that effort to get.
> But then I've heard a good few similar stories. No uncommon.
> ...


hi thank you for your response we believe we are wasting out time now but we would have liked to know how the money was spent and why the CU gave out the money in the first place on a note


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## AlbacoreA (8 Oct 2019)

If anyone else is in the situation. Setup a join account with web access. Use a card for all purchases.  Keep all receipts. No arguments later.


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## Threadser (8 Oct 2019)

I can't help but think that there is an entire other side to this story. Your brother and sister in law may have squandered your mother's money as you presume or they may have incurred very legitimate expenses in managing her property and finances while she was incapacitated. Either way you were not personally involved when they were managing all this and unfortunately it looks like you will have to take the consequences of that and move on.


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

AlbacoreA said:


> I think you have to decide to filter the positives in life not the negatives.


Thank you understood


AlbacoreA said:


> If anyone else is in the situation. Setup a join account with web access. Use a card for all purchases.  Keep all receipts. No arguments later.


Hi We know now but when you can’t trust family in these circumstances who can you trust at a time like this with an old women spending her last days in a  nursing home


Threadser said:


> I can't help but think that there is an entire other side to this story. Your brother and sister in law may have squandered your mother's money as you presume or they may have incurred very legitimate expenses in managing her property and finances while she was incapacitated. Either way you were not personally involved when they were managing all this and unfortunately it looks like you will have to take the consequences of that and move on.


 Hi yes I do have to agree following all the posts we have received but it make you never thrust any family There we no expenses on the vacant house it was exempt property tax the electric and gas were turned off water was switched off at the mains


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## Threadser (8 Oct 2019)

The vacant house would still have had to be insured. The cost of this is exorbitant if you are lucky to find an insurance company that will insure it. You may perhaps be a bit naive in terms of the actual cost of all this to your brother and sister in law.


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2019)

Cheated said:


> Thank you understood
> 
> Hi We know now but when you can’t trust family in these circumstances who can you trust at a time like this with an old women spending her last days in a  nursing home
> 
> Hi yes I do have to agree following all the posts we have received but it make you never thrust any family There we no expenses on the vacant house it was exempt property tax the electric and gas were turned off water was switched off at the mains


How did your SIL rent out rooms for 8k if there was no electricity, gas or water?


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

Bronte said:


> How did your SIL rent out rooms for 8k if there was no electricity, gas or water?


They had them reconnected for the period of the rental 10 months


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

Threadser said:


> The vacant house would still have had to be insured. The cost of this is exorbitant if you are lucky to find an insurance company that will insure it. You may perhaps be a bit naive in terms of the actual cost of all this to your brother and sister in law.


I paid the insurance


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## noproblem (8 Oct 2019)

Cheated said:


> They had them reconnected for the period of the rental 10 months


As far as I know the electricity alone would have cost around €1000.00 to reconnect and possibly a cert from an electrician. Don't know why they'd disconnect the water. In any case i've been following this post and I'd advise you to check out everything you've said regarding the expenses incurred. Apart from your relations being there for the deceased and making sure everything was taken care of, they were the only people there it seems and might indeed have incurred most of the expenses they've said they incurred. It is certainly not an extravagant amount and living in a nursing home costs a hell of a lot more than just the fee, never mind the health insurance plus everything else. You might have to lose your suspicions on this one I feel and in any case there's nothing you can do about it now anyway. Worse still, you've lost your brother and his wife as well. Just leave it now, enjoy whatever inheritance might be there for you both and get on with living. Life's too short.


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

Cheated said:


> What are the credit union rules for an" inlaw" to transfer large amounts from  an 83 yrs old women (credit union account to a bank account) (and then making withdrawals with an atm card ) in a nursing home unable to care for herself and unable to write The in -law provided signed letter from the old woman to allow the withdrawal it was not witnessed and was hand written by the person making the withdrawal  it appears to be a forged signature.
> Do the credit union not verify the signature and request a  witness to the signature before releasing the money


Ok thanks


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

noproblem said:


> As far as I know the electricity alone would have cost around €1000.00 to reconnect and possibly a cert from an electrician. Don't know why they'd disconnect the water. In any case i've been following this post and I'd advise you to check out everything you've said regarding the expenses incurred. Apart from your relations being there for the deceased and making sure everything was taken care of, they were the only people there it seems and might indeed have incurred most of the expenses they've said they incurred. It is certainly not an extravagant amount and living in a nursing home costs a hell of a lot more than just the fee, never mind the health insurance plus everything else. You might have to lose your suspicions on this one I feel and in any case there's nothing you can do about it now anyway. Worse still, you've lost your brother and his wife as well. Just leave it now, enjoy whatever inheritance might be there for you both and get on with living. Life's too short.


Thank you


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## Thirsty (8 Oct 2019)

"...while she was in the home I was working overseas for 3 yrs "

Thats the nub of it in a nutshell.

You are abroad, other family members have to manage your mother's affairs for three years as she becomes increasingly unwell, then you sail in throwing shapes and demanding receipts.

Not surprised they've taken offence.


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## Cheated (8 Oct 2019)

Thirsty said:


> "...while she was in the home I was working overseas for 3 yrs "
> 
> Thats the nub of it in a nutshell.
> 
> ...


Yes that true


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## Bronte (8 Oct 2019)

Cheated said:


> Yes that true


In the three years did you not wonder who was paying the nursing home the extras or the costs of looking after an empty house and dealing with the administration of your mothers affairs. Did you never ask.


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## Thirsty (9 Oct 2019)

And to give you the benefit of the doubt, I wonder if you feel bad about the fact that you were away for the last years of your Mother's life? 

And that sadness has manifested itself in anger against other family members?

Maybe its time to forgive yourself & mend fences, we only get one life.


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