# Main dealer claims not to have known about outstanding finance, advice please



## truthseeker (25 Feb 2010)

I bought and paid for a car from a main dealer, was assured there was no finance outstanding, signed contract (which dealership had checked box to say no finance outstanding).

Was due to collect it today.
Did my own finance check. Finance outstanding.

Phoned the dealership. Shock expressed and promise to look into it. 

Got a call back from them saying that there is indeed finance outstanding, and that it is being settled today - would I still be collecting the car at the arranged time, they would amend the receipt to say finance being settled.

I said no. I insisted that I would not take the car until they could provide me with documentation that the finance had been settled with the loaning institution and a letter from the car dealership saying the finance was settled AND me do my own check again - just to be sure.

They got a bit pushy at this, saying 'oh it will be settled, there is nothing to worry about' etc....

Have I done the right thing - what do people advise? Should I pull out altogether? I feel annoyed that a main dealer was selling me a car with finance outstanding that they claim not to have known about - surely they should do their own checks before they offer it for sale? I just feel like the trust is gone.


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## chilli (25 Feb 2010)

*Re: Outstanding finance, advice please*

most car dealers would have their new and used cars on a stocking system with banks,i.e they would have their used cars on finance so as to help with cashflow and all thir money is not tied up in used cars etc,if its a maindealer i would worry too much about it as they usually only clear the car form finance once its sold,also it could be an ex hire car which would be on finance for the same reason


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## truthseeker (25 Feb 2010)

*Re: Outstanding finance, advice please*

But surely they should have known there was finance outstanding and not told me there wasnt?
They actually told me that they had to contact the previous owner today to get the finance settled.


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## chilli (25 Feb 2010)

*Re: Outstanding finance, advice please*

oh well in that case it looks like they didnt know that there was finance outstanding.It can happen form time to time and a real pain for the garage but if they are clearing the finance i wouldnt think there is much to worry about,


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## Boyd (25 Feb 2010)

*Re: Outstanding finance, advice please*

I would disagree with chilli, I think its a bad indication of a garage that you were left to find this out yourself. I would be thinking twice about proceeding with the sale TBH, especially with them getting pushy as opposed to giving you a discount for such shoddy service.


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## Leo (25 Feb 2010)

Deffinitely do not hand over and money until they can prove the finance is cleared.


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## truthseeker (25 Feb 2010)

The money was already handed over.

I had paid for it earlier in the week, but was not free to pick it up til today. 

I actually only did the finance check as an afterthought, because I didnt think it was something I needed to do with a main dealer.


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## Leo (25 Feb 2010)

Sorry, missed that in my first reading. I'm not sure what the options are at this point so, as you now own the car, the outstanding finance headache is also yours. If the person who took out the finance does not pay it off, the car can legally be reposessed.

You may have grounds t owalk away from the deal on the basis that the contract signed did not accurately represent the situation. Legal advice would be required there. Perhaps contact Consumer Connect?

Is the dealer SIMI registered?


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## truthseeker (25 Feb 2010)

Thank you Leo. I contacted consumer connect and they have advised me that I am within my rights to walk away from the deal now and request a refund because I paid the money based on a misrepresentation of the goods being sold.
They pointed me to relevant sections of their website to print off to bring along if I feel I need printed backup.


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## kceire (25 Feb 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Thank you Leo. I contacted consumer connect and they have advised me that I am within my rights to walk away from the deal now and request a refund because I paid the money based on a misrepresentation of the goods being sold.
> They pointed me to relevant sections of their website to print off to bring along if I feel I need printed backup.


 

do ya not think thats a bit extreme?

do you like the car? theres nothing wrong with it except for a finance issue which is very easily sorted!

get the letter from the bank to say its clear and your fine, but bear in mind that if you do an online check it can take a few months from the time of finance clearance to the time that HPI, Cartell etc etc have it logged on their system.


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## truthseeker (26 Feb 2010)

kceire - maybe it seems extreme to you, but I feel that the trust is gone. I paid money in good faith, the car was misrepresented to me - I found out about the finance myself, what else could be wrong that I have not been told about? 

It just makes me feel that I do not want to do business with this dealership. I am upset about the fact that I could have driven away yesterday in a car that could have been legally repossessed off me.


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## PaddyBloggit (26 Feb 2010)

I see where you're coming from ..... trust is important ... imagine the service you'd get when you'd hand over the money!


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## truthseeker (26 Feb 2010)

So the latest is that the salesman passed me onto a manager who spent 30 minutes browbeating me on the phone, insisting that I was mistaken, there was no finance outstanding, that websites do not have live data and that I have signed a contract and as far as he is concerned the car is waiting for me to collect it.

His attitude was such that I actually wouldnt even want to buy a sandwich off this dealership now, let alone a car. 

He wouldnt listen to anything I said, spent the entire call more or less just shouting me down, made several personal remarks to the tune that I was completely unreasonable and irrational, and then told me to go and read my contract.


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## Staples (26 Feb 2010)

truthseeker said:


> His attitude was such that I actually wouldnt even want to buy a sandwich off this dealership now, let alone a car.


 
On the other hand, he's got your money.......

Could you perhaps insist on an e-mail or letter from the dealer confirming that there is no finance on the car?


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## Caveat (26 Feb 2010)

Staples said:


> On the other hand, he's got your money.......
> 
> Could you perhaps insist on an e-mail or letter from the dealer confirming that there is no finance on the car?


 
I agree.  If he refuses you would have reason to be suspicious IMO and you can then decide on your next move.


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## truthseeker (26 Feb 2010)

Staples said:


> Could you perhaps insist on an e-mail or letter from the dealer confirming that there is no finance on the car?


 
Already asked for it. Was informed that he would not have the relevant documentation until later in the day. 

Another call has revealed that he could return my money - minus the deposit - but not for some days apparently. According to him I am the one cancelling the contract so therefore I lose my deposit as in his opinion the dealership did not misrepresent the car.

The second call was short - I refused to engage in any debate on his opinion Vs mine. Just said I wanted my money back. 
He asked me to think about what I was doing(I actually felt like I was being a bold child the way he addressed it to me!), and said he would speak to me later.


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## galleyslave (26 Feb 2010)

if there is outstanding finance you're entitled to the lot back as far as i know. None of this nonsense about keeping deposits


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## Boyd (26 Feb 2010)

I feel calling in person would be a good idea, bring contract and info from consumer connect. Refuse to leave until you are refunded your money. What brand of car is it?


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## truthseeker (26 Feb 2010)

galleyslave said:


> if there is outstanding finance you're entitled to the lot back as far as i know. None of this nonsense about keeping deposits


 
This is where the nub of the problem lies. The manager in the dealership is insisting that the finance is settled and that the dealership have discharged their responsibility. I am insisting that the finance WAS outstanding at point of sale, not communicated to me, and brought to their attention BY me. They would have let me drive away in a car with finance outstanding. He insists that 'it would have been sorted out'. I cannot prove that they wouldnt have sorted it out, because I brought it to their attention and did not take the car.


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## Complainer (26 Feb 2010)

See P.15 of this document, which implies that SIMI members check the history of the car before selling [broken link removed]

Is the dealer as SIMI member?


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## truthseeker (26 Feb 2010)

Yes, they are SIMI registered.

The manager claimed in the phonecall this morning that the salesman wouldnt have known about outstanding finance on the car as 
'the admin people take care of this, and it would have been taken care of by the time you took the car, we sell 100s of cars every year, we know what we're doing. You wouldnt have had any liability, it would have come back on the retailer, there has never been a case of a car repossessed that someone bought from a retailer as the finance would be settled by the retailer'.

The conversation was just circular.
Me: There was outstanding finance on the car when I paid for it.
Him: There IS no outstanding finance on the car.
Me: But there was before I brought it to your attention.
Him: It is sorted.
Me: It was only sorted because I brought it to your attention.
Him: There is no outstanding finance on the car.

He just kept using the present tense. I kept using the past tense. The conversation went nowhere.


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## Caveat (1 Mar 2010)

Any further update on this TS?


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## truthseeker (1 Mar 2010)

Not really.

Dealership agreed to refund money but insists they are keeping deposit.

My husband phoned friday evening and politely queried had the manager really used the words 'ulterior motive' in an accusation against me, and a number of other choice quotes that the manager had used that morning. There was a flurry of apology and assurance that there must have been a misunderstanding etc...but bottom line was still - dealership keeping deposit.

The dealership did think to offer rental car usage for free for a few days and also choice of buying a different car from them (interesting how they are willing to break contract so long as they get to keep my money eh?) in the later call with my husband, but he pointed out to them that they had had the chance to resolve the situation with me on the phone that morning, but had only made a bad situation worse and any offer at this point was just too little too late.

Anyway, as soon as the main part of the money is refunded I will be (upon advice from a friend) writing to the managing director of *Car Brand* Ireland and asking if its normal practice to be sold a car from one of their main dealers with finance outstanding and could he please clarify the position to me.

Then Ill be making a complaint to SIMI, and also a submission to the small claims court.

Actually though - Im willing to lose the deposit rather than do business with someone who thinks its ok to shout at me for 30 minutes and try to brow beat me into going ahead with a contract that Im clearly alarmed about.
I think Ive probably dodged a bullet here anyway because if thats how they have behaved towards me at point of sale - what would they have been like if I came back with a problem while the car was under warranty?

Oh - in the phonecall with my husband the manager claimed he now had the finance settlement paperwork available for inspection. My husband asked what the settlement date on it was - it was the previous day. So the finance was definitely outstanding at point of sale, and had I not brought it up i would have definitely driven off in a car with finance outstanding that evening.


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## Eng Car 1 (1 Mar 2010)

It absolutely betters belief that a "Car Dealer" carrys on like this. Raises further questions no doubt as to their motive and if this is the way the treat a customer I wonder how well they treat their sales stock and reputation. 
Customer Relations leaves a lot to be desired.

Truthseeker I realise that you cant name them, but would they be a long term established garage or a fairly new dealership.


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## truthseeker (1 Mar 2010)

Eng Car 1 said:


> Truthseeker I realise that you cant name them, but would they be a long term established garage or a fairly new dealership.


 
Very long term established business.

I was far more upset at how I was treated by the manager on the phone, than the finance issue itself. I was literally subjected to a barrage of accusation and personal insults - rather than an attempt to resolve the situation. In my initial phonecall with him he even implied he would give me NOTHING back. Totally out of order, not a constructive way to do business.


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## sunrock (1 Mar 2010)

You have agreed to buy the car and paid for it in full.
It seems the dealership are happy with their sale and won`t return you the deposit.
Why don`t you just take the car....I think you are cutting off your nose to spite your face by your present stance.And why did you do a finance check on a car you had already paid for?
I think it is almost certain the dealership have sorted out the finance issue with the car so you are really saying you have changed your mind.
How much is the deposit worth? Probably enough to go into the dealership and drive away with the car you have already paid for.


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## truthseeker (2 Mar 2010)

Sunrock - I agreed to buy the car. At the time I agreed to buy I was verbally told there was no finance outstanding on it.

I did the finance check after I had paid but before I picked the car up - Im not sure why I did it, it just occured to me that maybe I should do it (I would never have thought that you NEEDED to do a finance check when buying from a main dealer). I was totally shocked at the outcome of the finance check. This changed the status of what I had agreed to - when I agreed to buy it it was on the basis that there was NO finance outstanding.

I gave the dealership a chance to resolve the situation, a chance that they decided to use to aggravate things and treat me in an unacceptable manner.

Would YOU be happy to do business with someone who thought it was ok to shout at you for 30 minutes, accuse you of having an ulterior motive and call you unreasonable etc?

There was a 1 year warranty on the car i was buying. I have no interest in having to deal with an unprofessional company for the next year if anything goes wrong with the car.

I lost faith in the dealership. They mislead me. They do not know how to deal with customers. 

No amount of money (ie, deposit) is worth dealing with an outfit who treat customers that way.


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## truthseeker (2 Mar 2010)

Final update - phonecall to manager this morning to discuss when to collect cheque.

He was very abrupt and snotty on the phone. Agreed cheque could be collected anytime this week and will be for the FULL amount.

When I said 'oh I thought you were keeping deposit' he claimed he had never said that (despite saying it in 2 different phonecalls).

I can only assume he got legal advice and thought it best just just issue full refund.

Felt a bit like dealing with a crazy person who was denying previous conversation though!!


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## Caveat (2 Mar 2010)

Well, sorry to say it as I'm sure there are plenty of straight/customer friendly main dealers, but that's just another nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. Quite rare that I have had a good experience with main dealers. Arrogance, overpricing, mechanical incompetence and general slipperiness is common IME.

Glad it worked out TS - try an independent for your alternative car and get Bernard of Carcheckireland to look at it. Excellent service and worth it IMO.

_Edit: Haven't used them in a while and I think his website is down, but I'm pretty sure his number is 1850 909090 if you are interested._


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## mathepac (2 Mar 2010)

Good result, fair play to you for your persistence and it's sad to hear that sections of the motor trade are still their own and their prospective customers' worst enemies.


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## MandaC (2 Mar 2010)

Would still notify HO.


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## truthseeker (2 Mar 2010)

MandaC said:


> Would still notify HO.


 
Will do MandaC - Ill just wait for that cheque to clear first


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## manta356 (2 Mar 2010)

MandaC said:


> Would still notify HO.


 
And SIMI too just to add to their trouble


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## PaddyBloggit (2 Mar 2010)

What's HO?


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## MandaC (2 Mar 2010)

Head Office


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## PaddyBloggit (2 Mar 2010)

ah .... thanks MandaC


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## truthseeker (4 Mar 2010)

The saga continues.

Upon collecting the cheque this morning it turned out that the deposit was not a part of it. When challenged the manager claimed he had never said he was refunding in full.
After some mildly heated discussion he refused to show the settlement documentation and claimed he would 'show it in court'.

A phonecall to HO followed, they say they have no jurisdiction over individual dealerships. Consumer affairs say I must go the legal route. 

My solicitor was in court so couldnt consult with him.


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## Complainer (4 Mar 2010)

If the deposit is less than €2k, go for Small Claims.


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## truthseeker (4 Mar 2010)

Complainer said:


> If the deposit is less than €2k, go for Small Claims.


 
It is and I probably will - just wanted to see if a well worded solicitor letter would do the trick first.


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## Caveat (4 Mar 2010)

Complainer said:


> If the deposit is less than €2k, go for Small Claims.


 
Do they handle up to this amount though? It used to be a lot less - about £500 (punt) I think.

I'd do this but I would try the solicitor's letter first if it were me TS - they could well back down as they would prefer not to have their name in the SC court I'm sure.


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## truthseeker (4 Mar 2010)

Thanks Caveat - I believe small claims will handle up to 2000 euro.

Im just so annoyed about it all, and the manager constantly changing what he said and denying what he had said etc.... It just feels like a lot of hassle when all I wanted was a car and it was the garage who should have checked was the thing under finance in the first place.


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## Complainer (4 Mar 2010)

truthseeker said:


> It is and I probably will - just wanted to see if a well worded solicitor letter would do the trick first.





Caveat said:


> I'd do this but I would try the solicitor's letter first if it were me TS - they could well back down as they would prefer not to have their name in the SC court I'm sure.


The summons that they will get from the Small Claims Court should have the same effect, and will cost you €7 (presumably a lot less than a solicitor's letter).


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## Caveat (4 Mar 2010)

Yeah, you're probably right Complainer. Just go for it TS.  No reason to give these clowns 'a last chance' or anything.


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## truthseeker (4 Mar 2010)

Complainer said:


> The summons that they will get from the Small Claims Court should have the same effect, and will cost you €7 (presumably a lot less than a solicitor's letter).


 
I think i will still phone my solicitor as Im unclear to the exact legal status of the whole thing, the manager just kept shouting about how I didnt have a legal leg to stand on because I signed a contract, consumer affairs are saying its a grey area because the contract was signed based on the verbal question about finance and the way these people are acting they are going to deny that.
So Id just like some legal advice first.


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## mathepac (4 Mar 2010)

If the SIMI  contract was used, it (or any other contract) cannot take away your rights as a consumer under consumer protection legislation; it may grant you additional rights but cannot remove the basic rights you already enjoy under law. HOWEVER, I believe there is a clause that specifies and describes an aribitration process to be used in lieu of legal poceedings to resolve disputes between the dealer and a customer. If you signed the SIMI contract or a contract based on that template you will need to read it carefully and perhaps consult an expert.


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## MandaC (4 Mar 2010)

Very surprised at Head Office reaction - wondering did you get through to correct people (it can be quite common to be fobbed off with that individual franchise malarky)  They will have a customer service charter where all letters must be replied to within a set timeframe if they have ISO standards.

I would still write in and ask for a response to your letter.  Tell them if they do not respond that you will contact  the Head Office (European HO or whatever it is.  Get the right names if you can.


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## truthseeker (2 Sep 2010)

Hi guys, just thought Id give an update on this thread.

I contacted my solicitor back in March, he said that there was no way the dealer could keep the deposit and that he would get us back the deposit.

He wrote him a letter instructing him to return the deposit. Letter was ignored.

He wrote him another letter instructing him to return the deposit within a certain time frame or else he would issue court proceedings. Letter was ignored.

He summonsed him to court, looking for the deposit, costs and damages, court date was set for this month.

This morning I received a call from the solicitor. He received a cheque for the deposit yesterday 

There is still the matter of costs - will update further if anything changes on that.


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## Petal (2 Sep 2010)

Unbelievable! The chancers one has to suffer.... Fair play to you for standing your ground!


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## Deas (2 Sep 2010)

Good to see you coming out the other side of this one.  Only in the last week I have had to fight with a main dealer for a replacement part on my car that went from €200 to €450 to €350 and when job was done only cost €160.  Absolutely amazing and took choice words to get matter resolved.  I'm steering clear of main dealers for repair work in future.


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## Pique318 (5 Sep 2010)

Deas said:


> I'm steering clear of main dealers for repair work in future.


Welcome to the club. 

That'll have to end when I buy a car with the electronics completely frozen by the manufacturer. The Nissan GTR was the first of these with the complete 'big brother' package, and no doubt this will become the norm in the next few years.

Old cars are the future !!!


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## truthseeker (5 Sep 2010)

So I went and looked at a different car in a different main dealer on Saturday. Asked was there finance outstanding - was told no. Did not put a deposit down, came home, did an online car check and guess what? Its showing as finance outstanding!! 

I dont really understand whats going on here. Is it normal practice for there to be finance outstanding on cars sold from main dealers? I phoned them up and told them Id done the check, the guy swore up and down that the finance was settled but the paperwork hadnt caught up with the internet checks yet. Am I being over cautious?


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## kceire (6 Sep 2010)

truthseeker said:


> So I went and looked at a different car in a different main dealer on Saturday. Asked was there finance outstanding - was told no. Did not put a deposit down, came home, did an online car check and guess what? Its showing as finance outstanding!!
> 
> I dont really understand whats going on here. Is it normal practice for there to be finance outstanding on cars sold from main dealers? I phoned them up and told them Id done the check, the guy swore up and down that the finance was settled but the paperwork hadnt caught up with the internet checks yet. Am I being over cautious?


 
the paperwork takes a whille to be upated, especially for the online checks. the finance on my E90 was still showing on the online checks 3 months after we paid it off.

we werent selling so wasnt worried about it tbh.


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## Seagull (8 Sep 2010)

Tell them you'll put down a deposit if they provide you with a signed document that they will take responsibility for any outstanding finance on the car at the time you buy it.


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## truthseeker (8 Sep 2010)

Seagull said:


> Tell them you'll put down a deposit if they provide you with a signed document that they will take responsibility for any outstanding finance on the car at the time you buy it.


 
I did that - also told them they can knock off money for me doing the checks (and they did). I phoned motorcheck and they physically contacted the lending institution, the finance was settled the monday after Id seen the car - he said that a lot of the time dealers only settle finance when someone is going to buy it and get around the legal angle by settling it before the final payment is made by the buyer.


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