# Goodbye & Good Riddance Dylan Hartley



## mathepac (10 Dec 2016)

After last night's cowardly assault with his elbow to the back of Sean O'Brien's head in the Northampton vs Leinster Championship game, I look forward to Harley being banned for life from the game I love. Once a cowardly thug, always one, as yet another red card for this low-life proves.

Himself and his England colleague Courtney Lawes have disciplinary records that drip red and yellow and they 'sport' lengthy bans, cumulatively. If world rugby is serious about protecting players from thugs and thuggery rather than from technical infringements, surely they need to weed out the players who consistently assault opponents and operate a long way outside the laws of the game? That the England selectors continue to pick these hit-men speaks volumes for their money-grubbing, win at any cost to the opposition, motivations. Just like we saw from the All Blacks in game 2.

Goodbye Hartley enjoy yourself cage-fighting or in some other suitable career because a rugby player you ain't. Collect Lawes on your way and don't let the gate hit you on your substantial This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language on the way out. Soyonara savages.


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## Purple (12 Dec 2016)

It's a pity it overshadowed a superb Leinster performance, especially considering how young and inexperienced the team on the field was. 
As for Ulster and Munster; both great games.


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## Delboy (12 Dec 2016)

mathepac said:


> After last night's cowardly assault with his elbow to the back of Sean O'Brien's head in the Northampton vs Leinster Championship game, I look forward to Harley being banned for life from the game I love.


Banned for life in rugby!!!....not a chance.
As Paul Kimmage said tonight on The Last Word, there hasn't been a word out of Leinster's management on the incident. Thats how rugby rolls


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## Wahaay (14 Dec 2016)

Hartley has led England well to 13 consecutive victories.Eddie Jones likes the cut of his jib.He might miss the opening of the Six Nations but rugby is a very forgiving sport as anyone who has played it will know.
Every team engages in the dark arts now and then and it would be sanctimonious tosh to pretend otherwise.Alan Quinlan anyone ?
Although I do agree that Hartley is not the sharpest tool in the box.Few hookers are.


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## Deiseblue (14 Dec 2016)

Give the exponential growth in the physicality of the game leading to increasing levels of violent behaviour , concussion & unfortunately deaths something is surely going to have to be done.
Perhaps the upcoming Court case surrounding the death of Benjamin Robinson in Northen Ireland will be a game changer ?


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## Purple (14 Dec 2016)

Deiseblue said:


> Give the exponential growth in the physicality of the game leading to increasing levels of violent behaviour , concussion & unfortunately deaths something is surely going to have to be done.
> Perhaps the upcoming Court case surrounding the death of Benjamin Robinson in Northern Ireland will be a game changer ?


It is certainly more physical and some teams do plan on targeting opposition players with the objective of injuring them. That, to me, is the dirtiest form of play. In that context I would look at New Zealand rather than England.


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## mathepac (14 Dec 2016)

Hartley got a 6 week ban. With the RFU's attitude to violence and violent players I guess we'll have to wait until Hartley maims or kills someone on the field before we're rid of him. All the signs are there and I think it's blind luck it hasn't happened before now with the level of violence in the game that goes unpoliced and unpunished.


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## Wahaay (14 Dec 2016)

mathepac said:


> Hartley got a 6 week ban. With the RFU's attitude to violence and violent players I guess we'll have to wait until Hartley maims or kills someone on the field before we're rid of him. All the signs are there and I think it's blind luck it hasn't happened before now with the level of violence in the game that goes unpoliced and unpunished.



Actually it was considered only a mid-level offence and the more I look at the repeat the more I think Hartley mistimed his swinging arm which was intended for the falling O'Brien's back.
But you do seem to have it in for England players alone so I guess you won't be persuaded that it was anything less than an attempt at a Jihadist beheading.
Anyway he got a week off for saying soz and pleading guilty so he'll now get at least one club game to get up to match fitness before the start of the Six Nations.
Good news if you're an England supporter like me as I'd like to see their good run continue - the Ireland game promises to be a cracker.
If Hartley keeps his nose clean the Lions tour is definitely on for him.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2016)

Wahaay said:


> Actually it was considered only a mid-level offence and the more I look at the repeat the more I think Hartley mistimed his swinging arm which was intended for the falling O'Brien's back.
> But you do seem to have it in for England players alone so I guess you won't be persuaded that it was anything less than an attempt at a Jihadist beheading.
> Anyway he got a week off for saying soz and pleading guilty so he'll now get at least one club game to get up to match fitness before the start of the Six Nations.
> Good news if you're an England supporter like me as I'd like to see their good run continue - the Ireland game promises to be a cracker.
> If Hartley keeps his nose clean the Lions tour is definitely on for him.


I'm delighted he'll be back for the Six Nations; he's a rallying point for the opposition and far from England's best Hooker, Jamie George is better, and if anyone thinks he's the reason England are doing so well they need their head examined.


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## Leper (15 Dec 2016)

Let me see . . . Dylan Hartley. . . hmmmmmm! . . . broken home? . . . bad education? . . . breadline poor? . . . loaner? . . . tough upbringing? . . . unemployed? . . . unfortunate environment?, etc, etc . . . I think not.

If he was any of the forementioned and lived in Ireland he would be facing a judge; not an old fart, ponsey rugby boys club.

Stuart Lancaster got rid of Dylan Hartley and then England got rid of Stuart Lancaster - something wrong somewhere in the ERU set-up? I hope none of my grandchildren will be playing rugby as in its present state.


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## Delboy (15 Dec 2016)

Leper said:


> If he was any of the forementioned and lived in Ireland he would be facing a judge; not an old fart, ponsey rugby boys club.


I think you give the Irish Judicial system too much credit/respect.


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## Purple (15 Dec 2016)

Leper said:


> Let me see . . . Dylan Hartley. . . hmmmmmm! . . . broken home? . . . bad education? . . . breadline poor? . . . loaner? . . . tough upbringing? . . . unemployed? . . . unfortunate environment?, etc, etc . . . I think not.
> 
> If he was any of the forementioned and lived in Ireland he would be facing a judge; not an old fart, ponsey rugby boys club.
> 
> Stuart Lancaster got rid of Dylan Hartley and then England got rid of Stuart Lancaster - something wrong somewhere in the ERU set-up? I hope none of my grandchildren will be playing rugby as in its present state.


Plenty of rugby players come from tough backgrounds, though it may not suit the inverted snobbery that some people have towards the game to admit it. Jamie Cudmore being an extreme example _(Cudmore says he "had a bit of trouble growing up". As a teenager he was an enforcer for a drug dealer in his home town and spent a year in a youth detention center following a conviction for assault. He has stated that rugby turned his life around.) _but he is by no means exceptional.


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## Wahaay (15 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> I'm delighted he'll be back for the Six Nations; he's a rallying point for the opposition and far from England's best Hooker, Jamie George is better, and *if anyone thinks he's the reason England are doing so well they need their head examined.*



Personally I'd go with Eddie Jones' judgement.
Coaches,eh - what do they know ?


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## Purple (15 Dec 2016)

Wahaay said:


> Personally I'd go with Eddie Jones' judgement.
> Coaches,eh - what do they know ?


Eddie Jones is the reason they are doing well. He is building on the work done by Stewart Lancaster.


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## Wahaay (15 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> Eddie Jones is the reason they are doing well. He is building on the work done by Stewart Lancaster.



Jones hung up his players boots a long time ago.It's the people he picks who are winning games and in his opinion Hartley has brought something to the team since he was made captain.
Unlike Lancaster he likes a bit of mongrel in his players.


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## Leper (15 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> Plenty of rugby players come from tough backgrounds, though it may not suit the inverted snobbery that some people have towards the game to admit it. Jamie Cudmore being an extreme example _(Cudmore says he "had a bit of trouble growing up". As a teenager he was an enforcer for a drug dealer in his home town and spent a year in a youth detention center following a conviction for assault. He has stated that rugby turned his life around.) _but he is by no means exceptional.



I wonder how many of the people he applied his enforcing to can play any game since!!!!


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## Leper (15 Dec 2016)

“Players need to be protected, especially in these big games when the result seems to be more important than people’s health.”

Thanks Jamie (former drug dealer's enforcer and rugby professional).  What a hypocritical Flanker !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## Wahaay (15 Dec 2016)

Leper said:


> “Players need to be protected, especially in these big games when the result seems to be more important than people’s health.”
> 
> Thanks Jamie (former drug dealer's enforcer and rugby professional).  What a hypocritical Flanker !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1




Precisely.
My local club has a nutjob who is an average player but picked purely because occasionally he has to go in and sort out a recalcitrant opponent who is dishing out the rough stuff to someone much smaller than him.
The cleverer refs,who have played the game themselves, know exactly what is going on.
The absolute bottom line is that considering the huge amount of professional rugby played all over the world by bigger,stronger,fitter and faster young men than there has ever been there is yet to be a fatality or a significant serious injury such as permanent disability.
It's not to say an absolute vigilance should not be observed because it should but rough and tumble,fisticuffs and argy-bargy have been part and parcel of the game since it began.


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## mathepac (16 Dec 2016)

Wahaay said:


> Actually it was considered only a mid-level offence and the more I look at the repeat the more I think Hartley mistimed his swinging arm which was intended for the falling O'Brien's back.


Actually old chap in either case it is foul play, punishable  under the laws of the game. A bit like saying "Oh sorry, I meant to kick him in the ribs but kicked him in the head because my aim or timing was bad."


Wahaay said:


> But you do seem to have it in for England players alone so I guess you won't be persuaded that it was anything less than an attempt at a Jihadist beheading.


I've named two international players with appalling disciplinary records recognised hit men, who happen to be English, but fantasize away that I'm motivated by anti-English sentiment. Your choice of a Jihadist beheading for comparison's sake is in extremely poor taste. You'd wonder what former or current imperialist / colonists' actions would prompt Jihadists to want to behead people.


Wahaay said:


> Anyway he got a week off for saying soz and pleading guilty


I don't understand.


Wahaay said:


> - the Ireland game promises to be a cracker.


 With the likes of Hartley & other ill-disciplined English Hit-men on the field guess what'll be cracking?  Not disciplinary whips for sure, but Irish skulls.


Wahaay said:


> If Hartley keeps his nose clean the Lions tour is definitely on for him.


Hartley's nose is already very snotty and his violent history should have him ruled him out, but we'll see.  Traditionally the Lions tour was seen as a reward for the best players in the four nations. I wonder what the current criteria are.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2016)

Leper said:


> “Players need to be protected, especially in these big games when the result seems to be more important than people’s health.”
> 
> Thanks Jamie (former drug dealer's enforcer and rugby professional).  What a hypocritical Flanker !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


Yes, god forbid that a man can reform his behavior and change, no he should be judged on what he did as a teenager for the rest of his life.


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## Wahaay (16 Dec 2016)

mathepac said:


> Actually old chap in either case it is foul play, punishable  under the laws of the game. A bit like saying "Oh sorry, I meant to kick him in the ribs but kicked him in the head because my aim or timing was bad."
> *If Hartley had connected with O'Brien's back and not his head it wouldn't have been a red card.*
> I've named two international players with appalling disciplinary records recognised hit men, who happen to be English, but fantasize away that I'm motivated by anti-English sentiment. Your choice of a Jihadist beheading for comparison's sake is in extremely poor taste. You'd wonder what former or current imperialist / colonists' actions would prompt Jihadists to want to behead people.
> *Ah,so ISIS behead fellow Muslims because of Britain's past colonial actions ? Bit of a stretch that one old sport.*
> ...


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## Purple (16 Dec 2016)

mathepac said:


> I've named two international players with appalling disciplinary records recognised hit men, who happen to be English, but fantasize away that I'm motivated by anti-English sentiment. Your choice of a Jihadist beheading for comparison's sake is in extremely poor taste. You'd wonder what former or current imperialist / colonists' actions would prompt Jihadists to want to behead people.


Paul O'Connell was sent off for a strike to the face of Jonathan Thomas in similar circumstances  when Munster were playing Ospreys. 
Donnacha Ryan was cited for eye gouging.
Cian Healy has been suspended for punching, as well as other offenses.

Hartley is a scumbag and the England team and shirt are diminished as long as he is on the team but we aren't exactly perfect either.


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## Wahaay (16 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> Paul O'Connell was sent off for a strike to the face of Jonathan Thomas in similar circumstances  when Munster were playing Ospreys.
> Donnacha Ryan was cited for eye gouging.
> Cian Healy has been suspended for punching, as well as other offenses.
> 
> Hartley is a scumbag and the England team and shirt are diminished as long as he is on the team but we aren't exactly perfect either.




Agreed.
Every team has its scumbags.Ireland included.
But Hartley's misdemeanours will be quickly forgotten if he leads the Lions to victory.
Personally I hope its Rory Best.


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## mathepac (16 Dec 2016)

This [edit: mention of Paul O'Connell, Donnacha Ryan, Cian Healy] is the same silly "whataboutery" that popped up in the Alan Quinlan comment earlier. If you want to talk about other players' disciplinary records then can I suggest you start a thread about that topic. I wanted to highlight Hartley's cowardly strike to the back of Sean O'Brien's head, and secondarily his colleague and fellow bad guy Courtney Lawes' shocking disciplinary records.

There is no need to compare them with any other disciplinary records at club or international level, they make for appalling reading in their own right. If World Rugby want to make professional rugby football safer for players and more attractive for supporters, then the thugs have no place in it. Unless of course they want to go down the route of F1 a couple or three decades ago and sacrifice the lives and well-being of young men in order for their cars to go faster for longer to make more money.   I think world rugby needs to issue criteria to the national unions insisting that players who are persistently guilty of dangerous, violent play are not considered for selection.

I understand why England and New Zealand employ the tactics they do against teams like Ireland. With rugby football coming in a poor 4th to the three leading sports, soccer, hurling and Gaelic football here, they know we don't have the strength in depth in our squad such as they enjoy. Thus it is unlikely we can replace injured players with equally talented ones. They cynically play the numbers game, planning to win by attrition if they can't compete in the talent / teamwork stakes. It's now all about money and winning, winning and money.  As in F1 and American football in the past, dead and maimed players and drivers are just the cost of being on top of the ratings in the entertainment business. Prove me wrong, rugby football, ban Hartley and his like for life.


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## Wahaay (16 Dec 2016)

So red-carded Irish players is " whataboutery " but the plucky Irish lads on the receiving end of aggression are being targeted because rugby is this country's 4th sport ? You're moving into the realms of fantasy now.
I don't recall Italian players whining about the bully boys.They give as good as they get.


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## Purple (16 Dec 2016)

Wahaay said:


> Agreed.
> Every team has its scumbags.Ireland included.
> But Hartley's misdemeanours will be quickly forgotten if he leads the Lions to victory.
> Personally I hope its Rory Best.


Hartley is in a class of his own as a scumbag. My point is that nobody is perfect but I wasn't saying that other players, Irish or English, are anywhere near as bad. Northampton do seen to have a broader problem with discipline.


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## mathepac (16 Dec 2016)

Wahaay said:


> So red-carded Irish players is " whataboutery " but the plucky Irish lads on the receiving end of aggression are being targeted because rugby is this country's 4th sport ? You're moving into the realms of fantasy now.
> I don't recall Italian players whining about the bully boys.They give as good as they get.


I'm now convinced you're being deliberately obtuse. I have said repeatedly that I started this thread about one English player, El Supremo of dangerous, illegal and violent play, Dylan Hartley, and I gave an honourable mention to the Doctor of Cynical Conduct, sneaky blows and late hits, Courtney Lawes. I didn't mention any Irish player other than as the target for Hartley's cowardly violence and certainly never discussed any Italians. I did give NZ a bit of a back-hander rather than a shoulder charge to the head but that was to illustrate the kind of play I abhor. As for your whining remark, I'm not a player, either Italian or Irish, but I am heartened to see you taken on board my previous bully boys / hit-men remarks about certain  English players. That's progress, the next step is to get them banned.


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## Wahaay (17 Dec 2016)

mathepac said:


> I'm now convinced you're being deliberately obtuse. I have said repeatedly that I started this thread about one English player, El Supremo of dangerous, illegal and violent play, Dylan Hartley, and I gave an honourable mention to the Doctor of Cynical Conduct, sneaky blows and late hits, Courtney Lawes. I didn't mention any Irish player other than as the target for Hartley's cowardly violence and certainly never discussed any Italians. I did give NZ a bit of a back-hander rather than a shoulder charge to the head but that was to illustrate the kind of play I abhor. As for your whining remark, *I'm not a player*, either Italian or Irish, but I am heartened to see you taken on board my previous bully boys / hit-men remarks about certain  English players. That's progress, the next step is to get them banned.



Understandably.
The RFU,rather than a barstool TMO,deemed Hartley's tackle reckless rather than malicious.
They deal in facts not hysterics.


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## Leper (17 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> Yes, god forbid that a man can reform his behavior and change, no he should be judged on what he did as a teenager for the rest of his life.



I'm sure the victims and their families of his enforcing  feel the same . . .


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## mathepac (17 Dec 2016)

Wahaay said:


> The RFU,rather than a barstool TMO,deemed Hartley's tackle reckless rather than malicious.


There's another odd  wrinkle, why should Hartley's or any other thug's home union get to adjudicate on punishments? Why not a panel of disinterested  senior officials from neutral countries who could call medical evidence as to the seriousness of any injuries sustained by the target of the violence? Starting at an automatic one year suspension and working up, with fines and victim compensation payable by the perpetrator and his club / country would certainly make selecting serial psychos like Hartley a risky proposition. Fines and suspensions to be doubled for each succeeding offence.


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## mathepac (17 Dec 2016)

Congratulation to Connacht after their narrow, last second win tonight. Oh and congratulations to Sean O'Brien and Leinster who were playing the most inappropriately named rugby club on the planet the Northampton Saints. Sorry for the visiting fans who spent buck loads of money to travel and face an absolute trouncing 60-13. They were missing an England international whose name escapes me now but who got a 6-week ban for "violent conduct" by striking an opponent with his "forearm" to the back of the head. Amazing stuff. Questions, difficult ones,  must now be asked and answered by Northampton and England management.


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## Purple (19 Dec 2016)

Leper said:


> I'm sure the victims and their families of his enforcing  feel the same . . .


I don't know how they feel.
He did serve a year for his crimes though so the State considers the debt paid.


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## Wahaay (19 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> I don't know how they feel.
> He did serve a year for his crimes though so the State considers the debt paid.



In much the same way that Hartley's slate will be wiped clean after his six week ban and he'll be free to carry on earning a living rather than this guff about a lifetime ban from some bitter barstooler.
Rugby is full of reformed recidivists.
In evidence I submit former police officer and now RFU citing officer Wade Dooley.


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## Purple (19 Dec 2016)

Wahaay said:


> In much the same way that Hartley's slate will be wiped clean after his six week ban


In much the same way anyone who serves their sentence should have a chance to build a future after reforming their behavior.


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## mathepac (19 Dec 2016)

I think the key is the reforming though. There is no evidence that Hartley is reforming his behaviour, unless becoming more sneaky and underhanded with his violent conduct counts as reforming.  I don't think being a serving or former police officer is any kind of recommendation. Hillsborough, Birmingham 6, Guilford 4, minister toppled by lying coppers, racism rife, sexism commonplace, child abuse & abusers in blue uniforms, and so on, "a policeman's lot is not a happy one" now that we've found out. Oh, but any barrel is bound to have one bad one - how about orchards' full, all dressed in blue?


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## Purple (19 Dec 2016)

mathepac said:


> I think the key is the reforming though. There is no evidence that Hartley is reforming his behaviour, unless becoming more sneaky and underhanded with his violent conduct counts as reforming.  I don't think being a serving or former police officer is any kind of recommendation. Hillsborough, Birmingham 6, Guilford 4, minister toppled by lying coppers, racism rife, sexism commonplace, child abuse & abusers in blue uniforms, and so on, "a policeman's lot is not a happy one" now that we've found out. Oh, but any barrel is bound to have one bad one - how about orchards' full, all dressed in blue?


You need to take a few deep breaths and relax, it is Christmas after all.


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## Wahaay (19 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> You need to take a few deep breaths and relax, it is Christmas after all.




Sounds to me like someone has put too much brandy in his Christmas pudding ....


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## PyritePete (20 Dec 2016)

Hartley is a thug, ditto Wade Dooley and not forgetting Delon "Cheap-shot" Armitage. Sorry for coming late to this ruck, maybe I should start swinging for someone. Oh no, that should be left to the "professional" himself.

Mathepacs point is well made, Hartley hasn't reformed and the defense of Hartley is pure comedy gold. Surely a pilot show on Dave is forthcoming. Might run for several episodes.

As for Hartley leading the Lions to victory, please pray its at another sport or leisure activity. I doubt it would be at Chess anyway.


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## Wahaay (21 Dec 2016)

PyritePete said:


> Hartley is a thug, ditto Wade Dooley and not forgetting Delon "Cheap-shot" Armitage. Sorry for coming late to this ruck, maybe I should start swinging for someone. Oh no, that should be left to the "professional" himself.
> 
> Mathepacs point is well made, Hartley hasn't reformed and the defense of Hartley is pure comedy gold. Surely a pilot show on Dave is forthcoming. Might run for several episodes.
> 
> As for Hartley leading the Lions to victory, please pray its at another sport or leisure activity. I doubt it would be at Chess anyway.




Any thoughts on CJ Stander's sending off against S.Africa this year.Or Jamie Heaslip for kicking Richie McGraw.Or Alan Quinlan's 12 week ban which saw him miss the Lions tour of S.Africa.Or Keith Earls sent off against Glasgow this season ?

And I'd almost forgotten Neil Best's *18 WEEK* ban for trying to poke out the eyeball of poor James Haskell.And Shane Jennings was another Irishman who loved a bit of eye-gouging,which resulted in a 12 week ban.

I know this is primarily an Irish forum but all this tripe about dirty England players is laughably myopic.


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## mathepac (21 Dec 2016)

Thanks PyritePete, debater rather than a troll! It's good to hear from a commentator who plays the ball and not the man! The ad hominems about me being intoxicated, bitter, etc were wearing thin.

Happy Christmas all and stick with the accepted rules for civilised debate.

p.s and thanks for staying on-topic i.e. Dirty Dylan Hartley, an English thug and captain.


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## Purple (21 Dec 2016)

I agree that he's a thug and a scumbag but players from Ireland have done some nasty things as well so I wouldn't get too carried away, that's all.
There are plenty of fine English players, including their former captain who had been very critical of Hartley. The fact that he's English doesn't make him a thug and the manager who seems to encourage and support this sort of nasty arrogant behavior is Australian. So let's keep the thread about the scumbag and not tar every English player and supporter with the same brush.


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## PyritePete (21 Dec 2016)

this thread was started about the thug Hartley and his deliberate actions against The Tullow Tank. I cant remember who brought up Dooley, another thug. So I thought I may as well throw another who sprang to mind, into the mix. Do try and stay on topic. 

Maybe Hartley deserves another chance..his 18th ?

Dirty English players, never !! Surely not, I cant fathom it, Really !! Tripe ? Not in a million years. Now thats laughable...

Please feel free to start another thread.

Go dti sin,
Slan.
Peader.


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## Wahaay (21 Dec 2016)

PyritePete said:


> this thread was started about the thug Hartley and his deliberate actions against The Tullow Tank. I cant remember who brought up Dooley, another thug. So I thought I may as well throw another who sprang to mind, into the mix. Do try and stay on topic.
> 
> Maybe Hartley deserves another chance..his 18th ?
> 
> ...




Yet still no mention of any Irish thugs.
Sure they're as pure as the driven snow.
In my neck of the woods rugby supporters are even-handed and not prone to ranting.My Irish chums all agree - I canvassed their opinion from my barstool last night - that the punishment for Hartley's latest indiscretion was about right.
You see far worse watching the Super 14 most weekends.


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## Purple (21 Dec 2016)

PyritePete said:


> this thread was started about the thug Hartley and his deliberate actions against The Tullow Tank. I cant remember who brought up Dooley, another thug. So I thought I may as well throw another who sprang to mind, into the mix. Do try and stay on topic.
> 
> Maybe Hartley deserves another chance..his 18th ?
> 
> ...


He's a dirty player who is English. I don't think it's fair to imply that all English players are dirty or that English rugby is more tolerant of that sort of thing.

Imagine if Connacht had been beaten the way Wasps were last week. Do you think we would have been a gracious as Dai Young was?


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## PyritePete (21 Dec 2016)

Wahaay said:


> Yet still no mention of any Irish thugs.
> Sure they're as pure as the driven snow.
> In my neck of the woods rugby supporters are even-handed and not prone to ranting.My Irish chums all agree - I canvassed their opinion from my barstool last night - that the punishment for Hartley's latest indiscretion was about right.
> You see far worse watching the Super 14 most weekends.



because this is a thread about Hartley. As i said if you want to start another thread then go ahead


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## PyritePete (21 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> He's a dirty player who is English. I don't think it's fair to imply that all English players are dirty or that English rugby is more tolerant of that sort of thing.
> 
> Imagine if Connacht had been beaten the way Wasps were last week. Do you think we would have been a gracious as Dai Young was?



Hi Purple.

I was replying to the previous poster who had used the words dirty English players & strangely brought Dooley into to "support" their viewpoint. And I added another that came to mind. I didn't imply that all English players are dirty.  I would ascertain that Ian Ritchie's comments on the jovial, fair playing, sportsman Hartley was a bit early for April Fools Day.


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## Purple (22 Dec 2016)

Wahaay said:


> Still not a single mention of any Irish player guilty of the slightest misdemeanour in this " simple online discussion. "


Incorrect. Read through my posts again.


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## Wahaay (22 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> Incorrect. Read through my posts again.



You misunderstand me.I was referring to the poster I quoted.
It's quite clear from all your posts that you're one of those even-handed rugby followers I mentioned earlier.I've never argued against the fact that Hartley's disciplinary record is poor but to single him out as being the only culprit worthy of a lifetime ban as the OP did is nonsense.
Likewise the suggestion from another poster that England are somehow unique in having players who fall foul of the rules.
Rugby is a tribal enough game without soccer-style blind fandom coming into it.


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## Wahaay (22 Dec 2016)

PyritePete said:


> its quite clear that at this stage you are unable for some reason to grasp that this thread was started about Hartley and then for you to bring in a former English player for what purpose again ? You are scraping the very bottom of the barrel here.
> 
> On more than 1 occasion, 2 posters have suggested you start a new thread.
> 
> I admire your honesty with it becoming embarrassing as you seem unable to comprehend a "simple online discussion"




I suggest you read the original post again - where the subject of violent play in rugby as a whole as well as Dylan Hartley is mentioned.
Other posters have mentioned other players and the discussion has ranged over other topics besides Hartley.That's generally why it's called a discussion forum.
I know you're late to the game here old sport but do try to keep up.


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## Wahaay (22 Dec 2016)

PyritePete said:


> the thread title is called Goodbye & good riddance Dylan Hartley. I agree with Mathepac that he should be banned because of his complete disregard for rules, the welfare of other players etc. He hasn't reformed. End of.
> 
> Your 1st post claims that Rugby is a very forgiving sport...actually please dont explain. In this same post you then dragged another player into it, Alan Quinlan where clearly the title of the thread is not other rugby players . At this point you could have considered another thread but you chose not to stay on topic. Why not ? Actually dont bother, its beyond you clearly.
> 
> ...





Congratulations - you mentioned a player other than Dylan Hartley. You see,that wasn't so hard after all.
Fortunately Quinlan is honest enough to admit in print that he was dirty player always up for a scrap.True rugby people tend to be honest.Braying bandwaggoners who wouldn't know a scrum from a tea cosy tend to talk gibberish.


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## Deiseblue (22 Dec 2016)

Come on guys , this claim that the thread should focus solely on Hartley is risible particularly as the opening post also references Courtney Lawes !
PyritePete in his opening post weighs in with Wade Dooley & Delon Armitage - by my reckoning that is 3 additional threads that should have been opened based on the argument raised by both Mathepac & PyritePete.
As an England fan I believe Wahaay is more than entitled to an amount of whataboutery by raising the violent play of Irish players including Sean O'Brien whose 1 game suspension for the off the ball punch on Pape was surely the most ludicrously light of all time.
By the way Wahaay as a soccer man myself I'm a little confused by your cross referencing Rugby & soccer blind fandom - could you elucidate ?


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## PyritePete (22 Dec 2016)

Deiseblue said:


> Come on guys , this claim that the thread should focus solely on Hartley is risible particularly as the opening post also references Courtney Lawes !
> PyritePete in his opening post weighs in with Wade Dooley & Delon Armitage - by my reckoning that is 3 additional threads that should have been opened based on the argument raised by both Mathepac & PyritePete.
> As an England fan I believe Wahaay is more than entitled to an amount of whataboutery by raising the violent play of Irish players including Sean O'Brien whose 1 game suspension for the off the ball punch on Pape was surely the most ludicrously light of all time.
> By the way Wahaay as a soccer man myself I'm a little confused by your cross referencing Rugby & soccer blind fandom - could you elucidate ?



No i didn't weigh in with Wade Dooley- from the post #33 "In evidence I submit former police officer and now RFU citing officer Wade Dooley". Still laughable.


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## Wahaay (23 Dec 2016)

Deiseblue said:


> By the way Wahaay as a soccer man myself I'm a little confused by your cross referencing Rugby & soccer blind fandom - could you elucidate ?



I'd love to but apparently there are posters with a short attention span who can only cope with discussion of Dylan Hartley.


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## Deiseblue (23 Dec 2016)

Probably best , throwing soccer into the mix with Lawes , Dooley & Armitage is probably a step too far.


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## PyritePete (23 Dec 2016)

Deiseblue said:


> Evidence in point !
> 
> That's 2 threads you owe us.



Incorrect. I was not the first to post Dooley. I dont owe anything to anybody.


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## PyritePete (23 Dec 2016)

Happy Christmas to all and we look forward to the Six Nations.


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## Deiseblue (23 Dec 2016)

Where did Christmas  & the 6 nations come from .
This is a thread about Hartley


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## Wahaay (24 Dec 2016)

PyritePete said:


> Happy Christmas to all and we look forward to the Six Nations.



Peace and goodwill to all men.Dylan Hartley included.


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## Wahaay (4 Jan 2017)

Wahaay said:


> Actually it was considered only a mid-level offence and the more I look at the repeat the more I think Hartley mistimed his swinging arm which was intended for the falling O'Brien's back.



Apologies for quoting myself but it looks as though Eddie Jones agrees with my assessment and is standing by his skipper for the upcoming Six Nations,provided he maintains fitness.

" Dylan made a judgment error.He went to hit the bloke hard, he wanted to stop the ball, the player’s height changed and he had a loose arm. I see that as his first mistake, so there is no reason why that changes anything.” 

www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/01/03/eddie-jones-backs-dylan-hartley-continue-england-captain-2017/


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## mathepac (4 Jan 2017)

I see Jones subscribes to the collective amnesia that persists in English rugby circles.

Can I re-fresh their memories:

April 2007 - 26 week ban for eye-gouging - the targets of his dangerous violent conduct were James Haskell and Johnny O’Connor. Bizarrely he also got Man of the Match Award. 
March 2012 - 8 week ban for biting Stephen Ferris. Hailed as future England captain by Graham Rowntree, presumably because he’d been guilty again of dangerous violent conduct
December 2012 - 2 week ban for throwing punches and elbows at Rory Best
May 2013 - 11 week ban for calling ref Wayne Barnes “a f***ing cheat”
December 2014 - banned again after elbowing Matt Smith in the nose and mouth
May 2015 - 4 week ban for head-butting Jamie George and dropped from Stuart Lancaster’s World Cup squad. Effusive apologies issued by Hitman Hartley as lucrative contract torn up. No firm resolve of “sinning no more” issued though.
December 2016 - 6 week ban for violent swing-arm ‘tackle’ (read elbow) at the back of Sean O’Brien’s head 
He also faced internal disciplinary proceedings for the England squad’s off-field behaviour during the 2011 World Cup and has been yellow-carded  :

against Georgia in 2011
South Africa in 2012
November 2014, for a horrendous stamp on Duane Vermuelan 
Just the sort of thug you’d love to have representing you and leading your country.


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## Purple (4 Jan 2017)

He's in good company with Eddie Jones. I think I'd need to wash my hands if I shook his.


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## Wahaay (5 Jan 2017)

mathepac said:


> I see Jones subscribes to the collective amnesia that persists in English rugby circles.
> 
> Can I re-fresh their memories:
> 
> ...




On the plus side Hartley did captain England to the Six Nations Grand Slam and a 3-0 whitewash of Australia last year and is the most-capped hooker in England's history.He's also a loyal servant to his country having turned down big-money contracts from France in order to continue playing for England.
Great leaders are often imperfect but I know who I'd want in the trenches next to me.
Fortunately rugby is a game played on the field and not in an armchair.


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## Wahaay (8 Jan 2017)

On the associated matter of the new tackling laws that came into force on Jan 1st even within the first few games it's obvious that there's going to be huge inconsistency and confusion.
Tackling is such a crucial part of the game yet why risk a red card for what is intended to be a perfectly fair challenge that goes awry when a player either slips or deliberately behaves in a way to get an opponent sent off.
I couldn't help noticing CJ Stander's attempt to be an early exponent of this yesterday against Racing Metro.


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## Purple (9 Jan 2017)

The first game referees under the new laws was the Leinster game. Two high tackles on Leinster players, the first within the first 5 minutes, and neither were actioned at all. Neither were bad but both fell within the scope of the new rules.


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## Delboy (25 Jan 2017)

Dylan Hartley confirmed at 6 nations launch this AM as England captain for the tournament.
Swing low sweet chariot.....


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## Wahaay (25 Jan 2017)

Delboy said:


> Dylan Hartley confirmed at 6 nations launch this AM as England captain for the tournament.
> Swing low sweet chariot.....



Good news for England,with an ever-lengthening injury list.
Back-to-back Grand Slams is going to be a huge ask.


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## mathepac (25 Apr 2017)

Was Dylan Hartley picked for the British and Irish Lions? Is he the mid-week captain? Or has he been relegated to boot-boy?


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## thedaddyman (25 Apr 2017)

mathepac said:


> Was Dylan Hartley picked for the British and Irish Lions? Is he the mid-week captain? Or has he been relegated to boot-boy?



not picked at all.


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## mathepac (25 Apr 2017)

Not even as boot-boy!! No "thugs on tour" then.


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## Purple (25 Apr 2017)

mathepac said:


> Not even as boot-boy!! No "thugs on tour" then.


Probably not going because Jamie George is a better player and others are better captains and they don't want to give the NZ media the ammunition.


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