# Legal bedroom size



## ailbhe (7 Jan 2010)

This may be the wrong forum so feel free to move it.

My ex has our child once a week overnight and once a month for 2 overnights. 
He has rented out rooms and now wants to move the child into what was the walk in wardrobe off his bedroom.
It measures 1.8m x 1.9m.

Is there a legal minimum size for a bedroom?


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## jhegarty (7 Jan 2010)

I don't think there is a legal minimum unless you want to rent it.


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## shesells (7 Jan 2010)

Not sure about size but my main concern would be ventilation and natural light. Most wardrobes have neither!


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## MOB (7 Jan 2010)

In a house where there are strangers,  I would be happier knowing that the child is in effect sharing a room with his\her Dad rather than having a separate bedroom.  The walk-in is presumably a bit like an annex to the main bedroom.

Even something as relatively harmless as a tenant with a few drinks on them accidentally blundering into a kids bedroom could create all sorts of difficulties.  (I hate the 'live in fear' mentality that blurs our perception of child-safety issues, but in this case, I think it is just common sense).

Depending on age, kids really don't need much space.  We have four children aged 9 down in one bedroom ( we also have two empty bedrooms which none of them yet wants to take).  Even in that room, you would often see one or more beds empty with 2 or 3 kids crammed in together on one bed.  

So I wouldn't really sweat it.


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## ailbhe (12 Jan 2010)

There is a window in the wardrobe. Child is 7.

I would prefer she sleeps in with her father which she does the one night a week that she sleeps over.
This was a suggestion in relation to him having his new partner over when the child was there.
I suggested partner could sleep in the spare room the one night a month that they would both be there. Not an option he wants. Would prefer to have child in the wardrobe. 

It's not like an annex in that it has a door. I think a cubicle off his room is a better description.


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## truthseeker (12 Jan 2010)

ailbhe - I read your thread over on boards on this issue - Ive actually been thinking about it ever since, although I wasnt able to reply at the time, I will do so here.

I think your ex needs to cop himself on. There are a number of things I see wrong with his reasoning on this issue.

1: Your child (especially at age 7) is going to feel like a guest who is in the way if she is expected to move beds around depending on who else stays. Your ex should be respecting her space and allowing her the same space whenever she stays over.

2: I dont think a walk in wardrobe is suitable accomodation for a child on an overnight in her fathers. Would she be expected to stay in that cramped space with the door open or closed?

3: Following on from 2, it is not appropriate for your child to be sleeping in a bedroom where 2 adults in a relationship share a bed. She is 7 years old. If the walk in wardrobe door would be left open its the same as being in the room with them. It doesnt set a good example, your ex must be mad to consider it at all.

The appropriate solution is that your ex's GF sleeps in a different room on the 1 night a month where they would both be there.

Your ex needs to put the welfare of your child first.


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## ali (12 Jan 2010)

truthseeker said:


> ailbhe - I read your thread over on boards on this issue - Ive actually been thinking about it ever since, although I wasnt able to reply at the time, I will do so here.
> 
> I think your ex needs to cop himself on. There are a number of things I see wrong with his reasoning on this issue.
> 
> ...


 
Agree totally with above.


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## ailbhe (12 Jan 2010)

Thanks.
I was just wondering about the legal side of it, if it were even legal to put a child into a bedroom of those dimensions.
Seems a mute point now anyway as I put my foot down and refused the wardrobe option for pretty much all the reasons that truthseeker laid out. I want her raised by him with the same standards I apply in my own home and I think a 7 year old girl seeing her dad sharing a bed with someone who is effectively a stranger is wrong for many reasons.

So he has reverted to the one night a week, the child will not be spending one night and one day a month with him and his partner and of course, it's my fault, I'm unreasonable and he is refusing to speak to me about it or anything else for that matter. 
Sigh.
But thats a whole other thread really


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## truthseeker (12 Jan 2010)

I think you were right to put your foot down on this. It will no doubt come up again with him, the only advice I have is to remain calm and matter of fact about it all, dont get dragged in emotionally, its inappropriate for a child of your daughters age to sleep in a bedroom with 2 adults in a relationship sharing a bed - end of. If he cant see that he needs his head examined.
Itd be different if they were all off camping and each in their own sleeping bag sharing tent space etc... but in your ex's home, for the child to be relugated to the wardrobe so her fathers GF can share his bed is just not on. Why cant the GF stay another night, or stay in a different room on that particular night? Youd think she'd have a bit of cop on as well - sounds like a pair of them in it tbh.

I wouldnt imagine any legalities exist about childrens sleeping space, that would be fairly nanny state-ish!!


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## ali (12 Jan 2010)

truthseeker said:


> I wouldnt imagine any legalities exist about childrens sleeping space, that would be fairly nanny state-ish!!


 
Funny enough there are when it comes to providing minimum floor space per head in bedrooms for Bean an ti in the Gaeltacht.

A


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## ailbhe (12 Jan 2010)

I think I was clutching at straws looking for the legalities. He has a tendency to make me feel as though I am the most unreasonable person in the world.
As for why the new partner cannot stay another night, the purpose of it all was to begin to introduce them and have them get to know each other which I don't take issue with.
As for why she cannot stay in the available bedroom, I have no idea. Apparantly he has come up with a solution (the wardrobe) and I am being unreasonable in not accepting this solution. Yada yada ya......

To be honest I think I'd be better able to reason with the partner than with him. She only hears his point of view and I'm sure he puts a lovely spin on it for her


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## ailbhe (12 Jan 2010)

ali said:


> Funny enough there are when it comes to providing minimum floor space per head in bedrooms for Bean an ti in the Gaeltacht.
> 
> A


 

That is more what I was thinking. I know years ago when my sister applied for a local authority house (she was living at home at the time), they came and measured her room and my nieces room. I just thought there might be some regulation even if it were to be aimed at boarding schools, foster children etc.


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## truthseeker (12 Jan 2010)

ali said:


> Funny enough there are when it comes to providing minimum floor space per head in bedrooms for Bean an ti in the Gaeltacht.
> 
> A


 
Ah but dont you know minding other peoples children is considered more important than minding your own in the law!!

Ailbhe - youre not being a bit unreasonable - maybe you should ask both your ex and the partner over for a calm discussion on it? Then she would hear your side of things.

I just dont see how any woman could agree with this mad proposal of his and think its ok.


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## ailbhe (12 Jan 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Maybe you should ask both your ex and the partner over for a calm discussion on it? Then she would hear your side of things.
> 
> I just dont see how any woman could agree with this mad proposal of his and think its ok.


 
I don't either but she is very young so perhaps thats why she doesn't really grasp the implications.
I also can't envisage them accepting any sort of invitation to mine lol. I don't think it's remain calm. I'd try but not sure I could keep my cool when faced with the pair of them and I'd say the feeling is mutual 

The long and the short of it is that he puts his partners needs above the child. This means I have to work trebly hard to ensure child doesn't wind up a complete wreck and they just don't seem to care about anything or anyone other than themselves. 
The ex has refused to respond to any attempts at conversation about the subject in order to try to come to a resolution as the child is quite disappointed, having been promised more time with dad and now being let down again.
It is always a case with him that once it goes his way it's fine. If I make any attempt to alter or imply that I am not happy with his proposed theories he just goes into shut down mode where conversation isn't even an option.


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## truthseeker (12 Jan 2010)

It just sounds like immaturity on his part to refuse to even engage if things are not to his liking. Sometimes in life we have to deal with things we dont relish, if he hasnt realised this at this stage of his life he probably never will.

All you can do is stick to your guns about how you feel it is appropriate for your child to be raised, try to detach emotionally from your ex, dont bother trying to open up conversations with him if he goes into shut down mode etc...

I suppose Im saying to just get on with your own life, allow the access that you are happy is appropriate and dont bother fighting it out on the rest of it. I know from your other thread court isnt an option. 

You are doing the best you can, you cant be expected to compromise on your daughters upbringing when something so inappropriate is suggested. And dont feel bad about it, you are doing what is right for her. Sometimes the right thing isnt the easiest thing.


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## DavyJones (12 Jan 2010)

The child isn't an accessory that can be put in a wardrobe at the end of the day.


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2010)

If the wardrobe is the only space the father has and the only space he can afford then I don't see the problem if the child doesn't have a problem with it.  Kids are very adaptable and seeing his dad and being in a safe place is more important than the size of the room.

There seems to be a moral issue about the fact that he is sleeping with another person whom his is in a relationship with, I think that's his business.  I don't get the niceties of the room being off the bedroom or being a seperate bedroom, we don't all have that luxury.  I'm sure they as a couple will take care while the child is there not to disturb the child.  (Radio/close the door/ensure child is asleep etc).  If the OP is in a relationship and brings a partner home what is the difference?

There are many Irish people who shared their parents rooms until quite an older age due to lack of space, there are many who shared a bed or bedroom with loads of their siblings and mixed siblings at that, it's not ideal but if you have 10 people in a 2 or 3 bedroomed house that's what's going to happen.


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## Bronco Lane (13 Jan 2010)

ailbhe said:


> He has rented out rooms and now wants to move the child into what was the walk in wardrobe off his bedroom.
> /quote]
> 
> If he has rented out the other rooms where is his partner supposed to sleep when his child is over?


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## truthseeker (13 Jan 2010)

Bronte - usually the child sleeps in the fathers room in a seperate bed when she stays over. There is another spare room but as there is a male housemate in the house its preferable for the child and her father to share a room on overnights. On one night a month the childs overnight coincides with the fathers GF staying over. The GF is a stranger to the child. 

It is inappropriate for a child of 7 to witness her father and stranger GF sharing a bed - you may think otherwise, personally I think it is inappropriate. It does not set a good example to the child, the father and GF do not live together, and the GF has no relationship with the child.

Fathers solution to this is to put child in wardrobe. 

An alternative solution would be on that one night a month the GF stays in spare room. Father refuses to entertain this notion.

The child is already confused/upset about situation with break up, new GF, father letting her down with broken access agreements etc... (I know some of this from another thread from OP on boards.ie).

I agree with OP that the father is not putting the childs welfare first. Child is going to feel like an unwelcome visitor if she gets relegated to wardrobe when GF (who is a stranger to child) stays. Father should be respecting his childs space and not expecting her to go in wardrobe when his GF could quite reasonably stay in spare room ONE night a month - its not a huge concession on himself and GF if she were to do that. Its only 12 nights a year, and perhaps as child gets to know GF things will change, or as child gets older she herself can stay in spare room (or if housemate moves out etc...).

I think the OP is being perfectly reasonable in her expectations that her child is not relegated to wardrobe in favour of a stranger to the child sleeping in the fathers bed with him - as the childs introduction to the GF. OP also mentioned in other thread that counseller had recommended slow intro of child and new GF and father had agreed to this (child quite upset at new GF and feels abandoned by father), but now suddenly wants intro to consist of child being relegated to wardrobe while new GF sleeps in fathers bed. The whole thing just smacks of the father not putting his childs welfare first. 

The OP is perfectly open to child forming relationship with new GF, but would prefer do go about it as counseller suggested, not as father is suggesting. Another issue for OP is father shuts down and refuses to communicate if she disagrees with any aspect of his plans and will not compromise, so now that she has raised areas of concern he is unwilling to have any conversation on the subject unless OP gives in to his plan with no changes. OP is concerned that if she disallows this scenario child now suffers because she was promised more time with father by father but once he shuts down no compromise is possible - and OP is not happy with original plan.


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## ailbhe (13 Jan 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Bronte - usually the child sleeps in the fathers room in a seperate bed when she stays over. There is another spare room but as there is a male housemate in the house its preferable for the child and her father to share a room on overnights. On one night a month the childs overnight coincides with the fathers GF staying over. The GF is a stranger to the child.
> 
> It is inappropriate for a child of 7 to witness her father and stranger GF sharing a bed - you may think otherwise, personally I think it is inappropriate. It does not set a good example to the child, the father and GF do not live together, and the GF has no relationship with the child.
> 
> ...


 

Lol, yup, thats pretty much it in a nutshell.



> If the wardrobe is the only space the father has and the only space he can afford then I don't see the problem if the child doesn't have a problem with it


I agree but the child has a problem with it. To quote her "but what if I can't sleep because they are kissing". Child was unaware up to this that girlfriend was even sharing dads bed. That caught me by surprise because she saw me and her dad share a bed. But when I mentioned that GF would be in dads room she laughed and said "sure, she sleeps in the green room" (spare room). The innocence of children.
As truthseeker says there is another bedroom but due to new male housemate child is at risk sleeping there (which her father agrees with me on).





> There seems to be a moral issue about the fact that he is sleeping with another person whom his is in a relationship with, I think that's his business.


I agree that it's his business until it is a case that my daughter is witnessing it. 


> I don't get the niceties of the room being off the bedroom or being a seperate bedroom, we don't all have that luxury.


The separate bedroom would mean child would be able to go to toilet in the night and get up in the morning without disturbing dad/seeing him in bed with girlfriend. The walk in means there is no way out of the room other than through the dads bedroom. 



> I'm sure they as a couple will take care while the child is there not to disturb the child. (Radio/close the door/ensure child is asleep etc).


I have my doubts. Within a week of myself and him splitting up he had photos of him and new partner all over the house which greatly confused child who was only 5 at the time. Appropriateness wouldn't be his forte.



> If the OP is in a relationship and brings a partner home what is the difference?


I wouldn't introduce my child to a man and the same night have us all sleeping in the same room.




> There are many Irish people who shared their parents rooms until quite an older age due to lack of space, there are many who shared a bed or bedroom with loads of their siblings and mixed siblings at that, it's not ideal but if you have 10 people in a 2 or 3 bedroomed house that's what's going to happen.


Bit of a difference between sharing with parents and siblings and sharing with your dad and a woman you just met.
I've reiterated to him that once the child gets to know the partner, they can all share a room. I just feel initially it's not appropriate.
I also suggested he introduce them without the sleepover aspect and he has ignored that suggestion. He insists on the wardrobe or nothing at all. Not open for discussion unless I give in.


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2010)

I would agree that it's not appropriate where he was having one night stands but if he's in a relationship, then sooner or later the child will have to understand that they kiss and sleep together.  It's not an ideal situation, but in the best interests of the child's relationship with the Dad some kind of compromise shoudl be reached if at all possible.  Otherwise one risks the relationship withering to nothing which is quite common in divorce situations particulary on the side of the father.    

If the Dad were not to take care not to disturb or upset the child, then there is something wrong with him, but this is an assumption on the OP's part.


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## ailbhe (13 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> I would agree that it's not appropriate where he was having one night stands but if he's in a relationship, then sooner or later the child will have to understand that they kiss and sleep together. It's not an ideal situation, but in the best interests of the child's relationship with the Dad some kind of compromise shoudl be reached if at all possible. Otherwise one risks the relationship withering to nothing which is quite common in divorce situations particulary on the side of the father.
> 
> If the Dad were not to take care not to disturb or upset the child, then there is something wrong with him, but this is an assumption on the OP's part.


 

I have offered a compromise. He wants to collect her at 7pm on saturday night and drop her back at 8am on monday morning.
I said he could collect her at 8am on sunday morning and bring her home at 8pm sunday night. 
Or his partner could sleep in the spare room on the saturday night as she wouldn't be there on the sunday night. 
Or if his housemate weren't there for the weekend the child could sleep in her own room.

Bearing in mind this is once a month only. Thats all he's offering, the once a month I mean.
He didn't even acknowledge the offer, never mind consider negotiations. I have offered him many compromises. He wants it his way.
I should also point out that this isn't an issue about travelling to collect her etc. He lives in the same area as me, about 2 mins from my house.


If there was a spare room for my child I wouldn't have a problem with her knowing her dad was sharing a room with the girlfriend. I was the one who told her they were! However knowing and seeing are two different things.

I fail to see the difference for the child initially as to whether the girlfriend is a long term partner or a one night stand. Essentially she is sharing a room with a stranger. 

After a few meetings then fine, no problem. But not the first time. 

It's not like I'm applying this standard to him alone. I also apply it to my friends, family and myself.
For eg I wouldn't approve of my daughter sharing a room with my best friend/sister/myself and our boyfriends if they weren't known to the child.


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2010)

ailbhe said:


> I have offered a compromise. He wants to collect her at 7pm on saturday night and drop her back at 8am on monday morning.
> I said he could collect her at 8am on sunday morning and bring her home at 8pm sunday night.
> Bearing in mind this is once a month only. Thats all he's offering, the once a month I mean.
> .


 
I don't meant to sound harsh, but when one splits up and a child is involved then difficult choices are going to have to be made in the interest of a child.  In an ideal world we would all have lovely homes and bedrooms for our kids, our ex would hide their other partner and pretend they don't exist.  

We don't live in ideal worlds so we can make compromises even faced with an uncompromising ex if it is in the interest of the relationship that child has with the father.  This man is a grown adult and a father to a young child.  If he thinks it's ok for the child to stay in the room than I would say that that is his call, unless I could see a clear and present danger to the child from that decision of course.  So far that has not been demonstrated.  There are far worse things than a child to know his dad sleeps with someone else.  I would rather that than the child to not know his dad.  You have an unenvious task in making your decision, but the same faces all of us who split up.  All that is important is what is good for the child.


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## ailbhe (13 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> I don't meant to sound harsh, but when one splits up and a child is involved then difficult choices are going to have to be made in the interest of a child. In an ideal world we would all have lovely homes and bedrooms for our kids, our ex would hide their other partner and pretend they don't exist.
> 
> We don't live in ideal worlds so we can make compromises even faced with an uncompromising ex if it is in the interest of the relationship that child has with the father. This man is a grown adult and a father to a young child. If he thinks it's ok for the child to stay in the room than I would say that that is his call, unless I could see a clear and present danger to the child from that decision of course. So far that has not been demonstrated. There are far worse things than a child to know his dad sleeps with someone else. I would rather that than the child to not know his dad. You have an unenvious task in making your decision, but the same faces all of us who split up. All that is important is what is good for the child.


 
Child had serious emotional difficulties after the split, mostly relating to her father. She was in counselling for a while and I am basing my decisions on the recommendation of same.

What I believe as the main carer of the child, the one who dealt with these problems at the time, the one who sought professional help for the child and attended the counselling sessions with her and also dealt with the aftermath of these session, is that nothing good can come from child being relegated to a side cubicle in favour of dads girlfriend. child was having nightmares upon suggestion of meeting dads girlfriend that dad and girlfriend wouldn't play with her and then that dad got cross with her, put her on a chair outside and forgot about her and child slept there all night while dad and girlfriend watched tv in the house. **edited to add that this didn't actually happen, it was a dream the child had**
Just a little insight into the mind and sentiment and feeling of the child. 

This is my enviable task, weighing up the self esteem issues vs the desire she has to see dad more.
His enviable task is saying to the girlfriend "would you sleep in the spare once a month while child is over until she gets to know you better?".


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## truthseeker (13 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> We don't live in ideal worlds so we can make compromises even faced with an uncompromising ex if it is in the interest of the relationship that child has with the father.


 
I agree with this sentiment Bronte - but in the situation the OP has outlined I dont believe the scenario being outlined by the father IS in the best interests of the child, but rather in the best interests of the fathers new relationship.


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2010)

ailbhe said:


> and then dad got cross with her, put her on a chair outside and forgot about her and child slept there all night while dad and girlfriend watched tv in the house.


 
You mean a chair outside the house?


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## onq (13 Jan 2010)

ailbhe said:


> This may be the wrong forum so feel free to move it.
> 
> My ex has our child once a week overnight and once a month for 2 overnights.
> He has rented out rooms and now wants to move the child into what was the walk in wardrobe off his bedroom.
> ...



Apologies for the late reply Ailbhe.

There may be two sources indicating what is acceptable in this case.

A) The first area of law is the Building Control Act and its attendant regulations.
The normally tell you how to build as opposed to what you can build but I note the following:

Under the Building Regulations Part F references are made in the Technical Guidance Document as follows:

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1647,en.pdf

_“habitable room” means a room in a dwelling
used for living or sleeping purposes but does not
include a kitchen having a floor area of less than 6.5
m2;_

And also:

_Habitable Rooms
1.5 In a habitable room other than a utility
room, a kitchen or a room containing a kitchen, the
following provision for ventilation should be
adequate:
(a) a ventilation opening suitable for background
ventilation having a total area not less than
6500 mm2, and
(b) a ventilation opening suitable for rapid
ventilation having a total area of at least 1/20th
of the floor area of the room.

_And also

_Where a kitchen or utility room has a floor area of
less than 6.5m2 and does not contain an openable
window or external door, e.g. an internal nonhabitable
room, provision of either c(i) or c(ii) above
should be adequate. However, if mechanical extract
ventilation is provided, it should include an automatic
15 minutes overrun, (after switch-off) or be
controlled by humidistat. Provision should also be
made for air supply to each room e.g. a 10 mm gap
under the door or equivalent.

_Other comments are made in relation to ventilation via another room and ot a court q.v.

The area of 6.5sqm may be significant but so also may the ventilation provisions.

The fact that this will now be an inner habitable room also raises issues in relation to means of excape from fire under TGD B:

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf

_General Provisions for Dwelling Houses

1.5.8 The following general provisions apply to
dwelling houses.
1.5.8.1 Inner rooms - An inner room is where the
access to that room is through another room. A
habitable room should not be an inner room unless
it is located at basement, ground or first storey and
is provided with a window or door suitable for
escape or rescue in accordance with the provisions
of 1.5.6._
_1.5.8.2 Windows for escape or rescue -
Windows may provide an alternative means of
escape or may be used for rescue purposes in
dwelling houses. Guidance in relation to such
windows is given in Paragraph 1.5.6. There are
specific situations, e.g. as described in Paragraphs
1.5.2, 1.5.3 and 1.5.7.6, where windows in dwelling
houses should comply with the guidance given in
Paragraph 1.5.6 in this regard.
As a general provision, in addition to the specific
situations referred to above, all bedrooms in
dwelling houses, other than bedrooms with doors
that give direct access to the outside at ground level,
should comply with the provisions outlined in
Paragraph 1.5.6._

And S 1.5.6 says:

_Windows for Escape or Rescue

1.5.6 Windows may provide an alternative means
of escape or may be used for rescue purposes in
dwelling houses of limited height. As an alternative, a
door which gives direct access to a balcony or roof,
which is suitable for rescue by ladder or for escape
may be used. Where provision is made in this subsection
for windows for these purposes (see
paragraphs 1.5.2, 1.5.3, 1.5.7.6 and 1.5.8.2), such
windows should comply with the following:
(a) The window should have an openable section
which can provide an unobstructed clear open
area of at least 0.33 m2 with a minimum width
and height of 450 mm (the route through the
window may be at an angle rather than straight
through). The opening section should be capable
of remaining in the position which provides this
minimum clear open area.
(b) The bottom of the window opening should be
not more than 1100 mm and not less than 800
mm (600 mm in the case of a rooflight) above the
floor, immediately inside or beneath the window
or rooflight. As an exception to the general
guidance in TGD K (Stairways, Ladders, Ramps
and Guards) that guarding be provided for any
window, the cill of which is less than 800 mm in
height above floor level, guarding should not be
provided to a rooflight opening provided in
compliance with this paragraph.
(c) In the case of a dormer window or rooflight, the
distance from the eaves to the bottom of the
opening section of the rooflight, or, where the
window is vertical, the vertical plane of the
window, should not exceed 1.7 m measured
along the slope of the roof.
(d) The area beneath the window externally should
be such as to make escape or rescue practicable.
For example,
__(i) where there is a clear drop from a window in_
_an upper storey or attic conversion, the_
_ground beneath the window should be_
_suitable for supporting a ladder safely and be_
_accessible for rescue by the fire services or_
_others._
_(ii) Where there is a roof, balcony or canopy_
_below a window, it should be structurally_
_adequate to support those using the window_
_for escape or rescue._​_(e) The opening section of the window should be
secured by means of fastenings which are readily
openable from the inside and should be fitted
with safety restrictors. Safety restrictors can be
either an integral part of the window operating
gear or separate items of hardware which can be
fitted to a window at the time of manufacture or
at installation. Restrictors should operate so that
they limit the initial movement of an opening
section to not more than 100 mm. Lockable
handles or restrictors, which can only be
released by removable keys or other tools,
should not be fitted to window opening sections._

As you can see its not just a simple matter to make a wardrobe into a habitable room, never mind a bedroom.

-------------------------------------

B) The second area of law is the Planning and Development legislation.

Under the law, the local authority has the right to make provision for development standards in development plans.

Development Plans set the terms of reference for five year periods defining what you can build as opposed to how to build it.

Apartment sizes, room sizes, room heights and so on all may be defined under the development plan requirements and the plan for your are might yield some useful information.

For example the Dublin City Development Plan at:

[broken link removed]

Par 15.9.3 requires 6.5 sq.m. for a single bedroom.

I suspect most other development plans would require this also.


-------------------------------------

Another issue also arises under the planning law - changing a wardrobe accessed off a bedroom space into a bedroom.
Normally accessing a bedroom through another room only occurs via a lounge, kitchen or dining space - not through another bedroom.
Bedrooms are private places and while in olden days familes all lived in one room and learn their sex education by watching and listening - that's not on these days.
I think it is inappropriate for a young girl to be deliberately placed in a situation where she becomes more likely to find her father engaged in sexual intercourse at some point.
Such interruptions may occur in relationships where children live in houses with separately accessed bedrooms, but the intended location requires access via the father's room on every occassion.

-------------------------------------

This raises issues of increasing the number of bedspace in the house and whether this requires permission or is covered  under Section 4(1)(h) of the Act.
Bedspaces may be used as generators of residential density and car space requirements in development plans and this should be checked.
The proposed use, however inappropriate for other reasons is for an occasional sleepover and might not be seen as permanent.
From the father's point of view, the local authority and possibly would probably not want to be seen as draconian.

-------------------------------------

Finally as your daughter is becoming older it may be deemed to be inappropriate for her to be sleeping in the same bed as her father.
Certainly it creates a dependency which can be cloying from the adult point of view and may restrict the emotional development of the child.
The preferred situation is for the child to sleep separately, even if this means sleeping on a sofa-bed in the living room, which could be an "adventure".
Our own son recently had a much-vaunted sleepover at his grannies with his cousins at Christmas and they chose to sleep on the sofas and had great crack.

I trust this is of some use.

ONQ.


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## ailbhe (13 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> You mean a chair outside the house?


 
Re-read post, it was a nigtmare child described which involved her *dreaming* that he put her on a chair outside the house whilst he and his partner remained in the house, forgetting they had left her outside.

He wouldn't do that. I was stating that this was how the child was viewing and worrying about the situation of meeting the new partner.


Thanks ONQ, as per those guidelines the room is not deemed habitable due to it's dimensions. Ventilation is adequate. Window wouldn't be big enough to allow rescue though so as an inner room may not be safe. Not a problem if ex was asleep in next room but if he were downstairs it would be.


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## jhegarty (13 Jan 2010)

ailbhe said:


> Thanks ONQ, as per those guidelines the room is not deemed habitable due to it's dimensions. Ventilation is adequate. Window wouldn't be big enough to allow rescue though so as an inner room may not be safe. Not a problem if ex was asleep in next room but if he were downstairs it would be.



But you have said in previous posts that you don't consider this a separate room , it's part of the bedroom.

You can't have it both ways.


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## ailbhe (13 Jan 2010)

jhegarty said:


> But you have said in previous posts that you don't consider this a separate room , it's part of the bedroom.
> 
> You can't have it both ways.


 
I consider it a room as in it has 4 walls and a door. Much the same as I consider an en-suite, a toilet or a utility room a separate "room".
I don't consider any of these suitable for a child to sleep in though.

Would you consider an en-suite a separate room or a part of the bedroom?
It's a bit of a grey area no? Unless someone is trying to turn it into a bedroom.


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## Bronte (14 Jan 2010)

Thanks for the clarification Ailbhe, I had nightmares about this story last night and apologies for misreading your post.  I've also been rethinking it.  

Can I ask why the dad lives in a shared house, is it a money issue?  I know as a mother that if I had custody of my child on occasion and had to live on my own that I would rent a place on my own.  Even if he had a one bedroom flat he would have the living room separate.


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## ailbhe (14 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> Thanks for the clarification Ailbhe, I had nightmares about this story last night and apologies for misreading your post. I've also been rethinking it.
> 
> Can I ask why the dad lives in a shared house, is it a money issue? I know as a mother that if I had custody of my child on occasion and had to live on my own that I would rent a place on my own. Even if he had a one bedroom flat he would have the living room separate.


 

He lives in the house we bought together a couple of years ago. He insisted myself and the child move out and he remained there but the mortgage, bills etc were too much for him so he rented out one bedroom and is trying to also let the other.
House is up for sale.


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## Spannerhead (22 Jan 2010)

Worthy of note: The OP has posted elsewhere that this man *is not the child's father *- rather a former partner who was with her for the early years of the child's life.

Now I think because of this he is acting out of love for the child - remember he has no obligation! - and she is trying to impose her law where she has no business. If she is unhappy let her not send the child over. 

I also think a room with radiator and window of nearly 2x2m is just shy of my box room. Calling it a wardrobe may be as disingenuous and inflamatory as me calling my box room a dressing room. It's a small room.


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## ailbhe (22 Jan 2010)

Spannerhead said:


> Worthy of note: The OP has posted elsewhere that this man *is not the child's father *- rather a former partner who was with her for the early years of the child's life.
> 
> Now I think because of this he is acting out of love for the child - remember he has no obligation! - and she is trying to impose her law where she has no business. If she is unhappy let her not send the child over.
> 
> I also think a room with radiator and window of nearly 2x2m is just shy of my box room. Calling it a wardrobe may be as disingenuous and inflamatory as me calling my box room a dressing room. It's a small room.


 

I didn't ask for advice about anything other than the legal size of the bedroom. I never make a secret of the fact that my ex is not my daughters biological father however it is not relevant to the legal bedroom size question which is why I posted it in "ask about law" rather than the way in which I posted about it on "parenting". 
This is a legal advice site, not a personal issues one. You made your feelings clear on the personal thread I am sure, and I probably responded to you there so why you feel the need to try and discredit my posts here is beyond me.
I posted the size of the wardrobe in my OP so I am not being disingenious or inflammatory. I would call an en-suite and en-suite, or a utility room a utility room. The plans of the house state that the room is a "walk in wardrobe". The child calls the room a wardrobe, her father calls it a wardrobe, I call it a wardrobe. I fail to see your point on that. 


As for the legal obligation I am blue in the face stating that it is he who wants to see the child and not me pushing him. But yes, this was a man I met while pregnant and became romantically involved in after the child was born. We moved in together at his request when the child was 7 months old and broke up when the child was 5 and a half, therefore he is the childs father in her eyes. 

So spannerhead (apt name), is there anything else of my personal life you'd like to drag up from other boards that are irrelevant to this thread? Any other "tales" you feel you'd like to share? Worth pointing out that on the more "personal" thread it was I who said upfront that he was not her biological father as I didn't wish to mislead anyone. 
I didn't feel the need to post that on here as it was a question about the legalities of putting a child in a room not designed as a bedroom when there is an alternative. 
If you wish to take me up on any aspect of whether my ex is a saint for seeing a child he chose to rear for almost 6 years, or if I'm a terrible witch for following professional advice I recieved from a counseller due to my childs emotional issues following the split (nice how you left that bit out!), then might I ask you to take it to the other thread rather than taking bits of that thread out of context to make me look bad.
Thanks.


Also 





			
				spannerhead said:
			
		

> If she is unhappy let her not send the child over


 
As per the other thread thats percisely what I did. She will not be spending nights there when the new partner is there as I don't wish for her to be in the wardrobe or sharing a room with him and his partner until my daughter knows her better. As he is refusing to take her now during the day in order for his partner to get to know the child, the I don't envisage this ever happening.
You suggest that I let him do whatever I want with my child while he has her even if it goes against professional advice, or just cut him off completely even though he wants to maintain a relationship as does the child. Either way I'm wrong to some people so I can only do what I feel is best.


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## truthseeker (22 Jan 2010)

Spannerhead said:


> Worthy of note: The OP has posted elsewhere that this man *is not the child's father *- rather a former partner who was with her for the early years of the child's life.
> 
> Now I think because of this he is acting out of love for the child - remember he has no obligation! - and she is trying to impose her law where she has no business. If she is unhappy let her not send the child over.


 
Course its her business, its her child.
The OP is acting out of love to encourage the relationship at all - she doesnt have to let him see her.



Spannerhead said:


> I also think a room with radiator and window of nearly 2x2m is just shy of my box room. Calling it a wardrobe may be as disingenuous and inflamatory as me calling my box room a dressing room. It's a small room.


 
Rubbish, the OP has described it as a walk in wardrobe off a bedroom - there is nothing inflammatory about calling a wardrobe a wardrobe.


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## Spannerhead (22 Jan 2010)

I'm not trying to get a rise out of you, but you are the one who brought personal issues relevant to the discussion:-

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=986650&postcount=22

My point was that ultimately the child is yours you can do what you want. As he is not the father he has no say in it.


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## Spannerhead (22 Jan 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Course its her business, its her child.
> The OP is acting out of love to encourage the relationship at all - she doesnt have to let him see her.


 
That was my point...........


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## batty (22 Jan 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Course its her business, its her child.
> The OP is acting out of love to encourage the relationship at all - she doesnt have to let him see her.
> 
> 
> ...


 
+1 

Because the man is not the child's biological father DOES NOT mean that the OP has to accept any crumbs he's willing to throw her.


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## ailbhe (22 Jan 2010)

Spannerhead said:


> I'm not trying to get a rise out of you, but you are the one who brought personal issues relevant to the discussion:-
> 
> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=986650&postcount=22
> 
> My point was that ultimately the child is yours you can do what you want. As he is not the father he has no say in it.


 

And your point is? I don't understand what exactly you are trying to say. I can do whatever I want, you are correct. But there can often be a difference between what I _want _and what is best.
I get muddled sometimes as there is a lot of tension between myself and ex and I'm never sure if I'm doing the right thing or if I'm letting my own feelings cloud that. Hence the thread on boards which specifically asked was I over reacting. Bar one or two posters, it was generally accepted I wasn't over reacting.

This post was in relation to how best to reason with my ex as I said in the other thread, he has gone into shut down, has decided I am being unreasonable and refuses to discuss the issue at all.
I wanted some sort of technicality for him as he deals best with that as opposed to the emotional impact on the child. I'd be more of the emotional empathetic type. He is more factual and thinks our decisions now will not affect her in the future.
So I wanted to approach it from an angle he would understand as the emotional angle didn't work. Legal, fire safety etc, he would be more likely to listen to that than to impact on the child and psychologists advice.
He thinks "child is fine, whats the problem" but he wasn't the one dealing with the fall out of the breakup and listening to the child put herself down and cry herself to sleep at night so he doesn't get my point of view at all. That was a terrible time, seeing her in so much pain and I never want to return to that, which is why I am putting my foot down about anything I deem detremental to her progress.
I also feel that cutting him off would be detremental too. Hence the quandry.


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## batty (22 Jan 2010)

ailbhe said:


> And your point is? I don't understand what exactly you are trying to say. I can do whatever I want, you are correct. But there can often be a difference between what I _want _and what is best.
> I get muddled sometimes as there is a lot of tension between myself and ex and I'm never sure if I'm doing the right thing or if I'm letting my own feelings cloud that. Hence the thread on boards which specifically asked was I over reacting. Bar one or two posters, it was generally accepted I wasn't over reacting.
> 
> This post was in relation to how best to reason with my ex as I said in the other thread, he has gone into shut down, has decided I am being unreasonable and refuses to discuss the issue at all.
> ...


 
Ailbhe, I think you may be as well not to engage with our 4 posts friend, Spannerhead.  Boards.ie are still closed for the moment, they'll be open soon.  I think Spannerhead is trying to get a rise out of you.


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## ailbhe (22 Jan 2010)

batty said:


> Ailbhe, I think you may be as well not to engage with our 4 posts friend, Spannerhead. Boards.ie are still closed for the moment, they'll be open soon. I think Spannerhead is trying to get a rise out of you.


 

Ah yes, I see. I hadn't spotted the 4 posts thing.

Boredom at it's best obviously.


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## Pique318 (22 Jan 2010)

Much and all as I agree with the majority on this thread, I think it's curious that he has rented out a room to someone but yet wouldn't let the child sleep in her own room due to his mistrust of this person.

That sounds a bit creepy to me, or have I picked it up wrong?


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## truthseeker (22 Jan 2010)

Pique318 said:


> That sounds a bit creepy to me, or have I picked it up wrong?


 
My understanding is that this is just a safety issue, you dont 'know' a lodger is definitely ok (to begin with anyway), plus it might be scary for the child if she accidently ran into him during the night (if she went to the loo for example and he was coming home from somewhere and they bumped into each other on the landing). The lodger would be a stranger to the child.


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## ailbhe (22 Jan 2010)

Pique318 said:


> Much and all as I agree with the majority on this thread, I think it's curious that he has rented out a room to someone but yet wouldn't let the child sleep in her own room due to his mistrust of this person.
> 
> That sounds a bit creepy to me, or have I picked it up wrong?


 
Well, it was a joint decision by both of us.The guy is probably fine but you can't be too sure. Child goes to bed at 9pm and gets up at 8am leaving a number of hours through the night where her dad is asleep the far side of the house and she is vunerable to a practical stranger having access to her bedroom.


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## Bronte (22 Jan 2010)

ailbhe said:


> Well, it was a joint decision by both of us.The guy is probably fine but you can't be too sure. Child goes to bed at 9pm and gets up at 8am leaving a number of hours through the night where her dad is asleep the far side of the house and she is vunerable to a practical stranger having access to her bedroom.


 
This story has gone too far, you can't have it every way. You agreed she stay there but you want it under your own terms, now you are pointing out dangers, either it is dangerous or it is not. If it is dangerous that she shouldn't stay there whatsoever. Don't pretend to the child that you want her happiness in staying with her dad but then put obstacles in his way. Forgive me if I am wrong but that is the impression I am getting. While I don't agree the living conditions are ideal, one has to deal with what there is. 

I am also acutely conscience of the obstacles that can be put upon spouses in relation to using children as leverage in an acrimonous split. 

By the way on another note I don't like the assumption that every man is a monster or potential monster.


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## ailbhe (22 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> This story has gone too far, you can't have it every way. You agreed she stay there but you want it under your own terms, now you are pointing out dangers, either is is dangerous or it is not. If it is dangerous that she shouldn't stay there.
> 
> By the way I don't like the assumption that every man is a monster.


 

Oh for the love of god!! This is absurd.
I don't want it every way. 
If I wanted it every way there is no way I would be allowing his partner, the woman he cheated on me with, to have anything to do with my child. I wouldn't be letting him see her, I'd have cut ties years ago and have nothing to do with him.

What I WANT is for my daughter to be safe. I know the risk to her from the lodger is minimal but it can happen. What sort of parent would I be if I left a strange man pretty much alone with my daughter in the dead of night? Her dad would not hear anything from his room. Neither of us know this lodger. I'm not for one second saying that every man is a monster and I have no issues with my daughter being around him but yes, I draw a line at her sleeping alone with a strange man nearer to her than her father. Even her father agrees with me on this.
Anyway, he is trying to let out the childs bedroom so it's not likely that she will be sleeping there anyway.

Is a bike dangerous, a car, a scooter? Potentially, yes. This is why we make our kids wear helmets and buy car seats and use seat belts. Not that we expect them to be injured or hurt but if they are, damage in minimised.
I don't expect that the lodger is a child abuser but the risk is there and I choose to protect the child by having her share a room with her father who can protect her.




Bronte said:


> Don't pretend to the child that you want her happiness in staying with her dad but then put obstacles in his way. Forgive me if I am wrong but that is the impression I am getting. While I don't agree the living conditions are ideal, one has to deal with what there is.
> 
> I am also acutely conscience of the obstacles that can be put upon spouses in relation to using children as leverage in an acrimonous split.


 
Okay, so I said he can still have her as much as he wants, he can introduce his partner to her, they can take her on days out and let her get to know his new partner. Once this is happening then she can share a room with them. And I'm throwing obstacles in his way? I'm pretending nothing to the child. I told her straight up that I wasn't happy with the situation whereby she ends up sleeping in the walk in wardrobe and therefore the overnights wouldn't be happening. 
One couls also argue that it is up to him to provide adeqaute sleeping arrangments for the child if he has her overnight. Much as I have done in renting a house alone instead of renting a room in a shared house for a fraction of the cost I pay now. 

If I were using the child as leverage I would be looking for the house, money etc etc. I look for nothing from him other than for him to respect the decisions I make as the childs mother. Same as I look for from other friends and relatives. If I didn't want my daughter sharing a room with my sister and her new boyfriend then I would expect that she would respect this and make other arrangements if she wanted to take my child overnight.


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## Scotsgirl (22 Jan 2010)

Ailbhe,  

I don't think you are reacting too strongly at all in this situation.  You sound like a very good mother who is only interested in the welfare of her child. 

I think the child will end up with esteem issues if her father makes her sleep in the wardrobe, especially if the new girlfriend is staying there.  And yes it is completely unsuitable that they are all in the same room together. As you say she was obviously deeply upset when her father left, and I don't think this situation is going to help.

You say the father is now going to reduce the time spent with her if you don't agree to what he is proposing.  I agree you shouldn't be blackmailed into doing this.

So that your child isn't upset by the reduced time, is there some other father figure in her life who might spend some regular time with her on the day her father normally took her out.  Perhaps bring her to the cinema, trip into town etc.  Just to take her mind off it and so she can see that there are men out there that are reliable and are not going to let her down.

I hope your ex realises sooner rather than later what he is doing to this little girl.  She may eventually want nothing to do with him when she get older, which he may regret.


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## ailbhe (22 Jan 2010)

Scotsgirl said:


> Ailbhe,
> 
> I don't think you are reacting too strongly at all in this situation. You sound like a very good mother who is only interested in the welfare of her child.
> 
> ...


 
He isn't reducing his time with her. He will have her one night a week from 7pm to 8am, much the same as he has for the past year or so. He asked for an increase in the time with her to include one weekend per month from sat evening to monday morning on the condition that his partner was involved. I agreed and it was fine until the sleeping arrangments became a problem.

She has my brother, my father and a few male friends (mostly my best friends husbands/partners) and also my sisters husbands who all play an active role in her life. 
She has some good male role models which is good for her I think. For her though, there's nobody quite like her daddy.


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## Spannerhead (22 Jan 2010)

batty said:


> Ailbhe, I think you may be as well not to engage with our 4 posts friend, Spannerhead. Boards.ie are still closed for the moment, they'll be open soon. I think Spannerhead is trying to get a rise out of you.


 
Thanks batty. I take it you never had 4 posts......... As I said, not trying to get a rise. Trying to show some objectivity. Guess I need more posts for that.


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