# Petition re annual Property Tax



## wigwam (27 Oct 2008)

Anybody interested in starting a petition to protest against the new annual property tax of €200. More than likely it will increase each year going forward too.....


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## diroche (27 Oct 2008)

You won't have much luck with that one - they may as well scrap the whole budget and do it again as per usual in December!


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## Lollix (28 Oct 2008)

Not much sympathy out there with regards to that one I'm afraid.


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## dereko1969 (28 Oct 2008)

i'd sign a petition to increase it to €2000!


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## badabing (28 Oct 2008)

Me too. Even as a property investor I'm now happy that I'm paying ring fenced property taxes for the upkeep of my neighbourhood. I have long advocted a move away from punitative levels of stamp duty in favour of property tax. I advocate both increases in levels and rolling out to ppr properties also


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## charliemacck (28 Oct 2008)

wigwam said:


> Anybody interested in starting a petition to protest against the new annual property tax of €200. More than likely it will increase each year going forward too.....


 
Count me in, where do I sign.


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## z103 (28 Oct 2008)

I find it strange that so many people are in favour of a property tax. When Margaret Thatcher introduced this in the UK there were riots.
I suppose when the amount goes up, or when it spreads to PPRs people will start complaining.

Any extra taxes are a disgrace, when the money collected is simply going to be poured into the bottomless pit known as the 'public sector'. The country is in this mess (debt) because the government spends too much, not because it doesn't tax enough. 

Where do I sign?


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## ubiquitous (28 Oct 2008)

leghorn said:


> I find it strange that so many people are in favour of a property tax.


Me too.


> Any extra taxes are a disgrace, when the money collected is simply going to be poured into the bottomless pit known as the 'public sector'. The country is in this mess (debt) because the government spends too much, not because it doesn't tax enough.



Agreed



badabing said:


> Even as a property investor I'm now happy that I'm paying ring fenced property taxes for the upkeep of my neighbourhood. I have long advocted a move away from punitative levels of stamp duty in favour of property tax. I advocate both increases in levels and rolling out to ppr properties also



The problem here is one of double taxation. You pay stamp duty when you buy your property and then you pay an annual property tax. The worst of both worlds.


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## murphaph (28 Oct 2008)

Obviously as a property owner I am opposed to this on personal grounds, but I also own a flat in Berlin and you pay both stamp duty and rates there on all properties including your PPR, not just 2nd ones. However, stamp duty is a flat 4.5% (3.5% elsewhere in Germany) and the rates are dependent on value as opposed to this flat tax. My rates in Berlin are €240 for example.

The issue is indeed one of spending, not taxation-stop wasting money and get value for it, then I won't mind this additional tax.


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## webtax (28 Oct 2008)

leghorn said:


> I find it strange that so many people are in favour of a property tax. When Margaret Thatcher introduced this in the UK there were riots.


That was poll tax, and applied equally to all houses regardless of their value or the occupants income, hence the riots.


leghorn said:


> Any extra taxes are a disgrace, when the money collected is simply going to be poured into the bottomless pit known as the 'public sector'.


Everyone who doesn't want the tax increases to come out of their pocket throws out this line!

Irish property is amongst the lowest taxed in the world and a tax on a non-productive asset such as property is preferable to taxes on enterprise or cuts in infrastructure/education.


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## z103 (28 Oct 2008)

> Everyone who doesn't want the tax increases to come out of their pocket throws out this line!
> 
> Irish property is amongst the lowest taxed in the world and a tax on a non-productive asset such as property is preferable to taxes on enterprise or cuts in infrastructure/education.


I'm actually largely unaffected by the budget. I don't earn enough for the levies, I'm not an OAP etc... So these tax increases won't be coming out of my pocket.

If I thought that the government had some kind of plan to get the country out of this mess they created, then I might understand the extra taxes. However, they are just going to waste this money by pouring it into the public sector and appeasing unions etc.

At the moment, we are getting property tax _as well as_ cuts in education/infrastructure. The government's attitude to indigenous enterprise is negative anyway. (Directors losing social welfare and tax credits etc)


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## kkelliher (29 Oct 2008)

Biggest problem with the tax is the implementation across the board. It is set out as a charge to generate more money for CC based on there supposed increased need of resources.

If you take apartment complex where all items are paid for via a management charge and the council do nothing (sewer & water were more than paid for under the original development contribution) then how is the €200 justified.

In a housing estate where the council cut grass, etc etc then I would say yes fair enough as you are making money on the maintenance of the council.


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## Protocol (29 Oct 2008)

Very good letter in the IT today about why a property tax makes sense:

Madam, - You are to be commended for proposing a long overdue discussion of taxation policy. In that spirit I would like to make the case for the most obvious and necessary first step - a comprehensive, regionally levied, property tax. There are at least five good reasons why Ireland should have a property tax.

1. Fairness: Many public services such as policing, the fire service, water supply, waste disposal and street maintenance are effectively social costs of property, yet they are currently funded by a tax on people's incomes, not on their property holding. The abolition of domestic rates in 1977 removed the link between ownership of private property and the cost of public services. So we now have the laughable situation where property ownership costs nothing while those on modest incomes, saving to buy a first home, pay tax to cover the social costs of other people's property.

2. Redistribution: Inequality increasing during the recent economic boom, notably because those who already owned property gained most. This was helped, no doubt, by such perverse concessions as "Section 23", which exempted landlords from paying tax on rental income as long as they continued to buy more property. A modest tax on the total value of property owned would raise significant revenue from those who can well afford to pay, and effect a small degree of redistribution without adding significantly to the rate of inflation.

3. Ability to Pay: It was argued, disingenuously to say the least, that the minuscule Residential Property Tax was unjust on people who owned valuable property but had low incomes. No such argument is made for those with reasonable incomes but no property. Even the small subsidy towards the acquisition of one's first family home - mortgage income relief - has been systematically reduced in value and the first-time buyer's grant abolished. Income and wealth are, ultimately, interchangeable. Where a person owns property worth millions but declares a modest income it is perverse to argue that they are unable to pay a small tax on that wealth. Of course, where property is mortgaged it is reasonable to base the tax on the equity element.

4. Transparency: In theory rental income is taxable but in practice most rental income is undeclared since the Revenue Commissioners have no means of connecting property ownership to PPS numbers. A transparent property tax would require a comprehensive public record of property ownership. This would have the added benefit of allowing asset-based means testing, for example for higher education grants, and so counteract some of the glaring injustices in this, and similar, schemes. A property register could also ensure that tenants could obtain appropriate tax relief on rental payments.

5. Regional government: Local government is in grave need of reform. The single most effective step that could be taken to restore power and credibility to regional government would be the establishment of a regional property tax at a rate to be set by the local authority. The impotent posturing that passes for local politics would be replaced by a real and visible need to match revenue to services while keeping the support of the local electorate. Handouts from central government would be largely replaced by these locally generated and locally dispersed funds.
A city that wished to subsidise its public transport could do so. Another might choose to invest heavily in sporting or cultural facilities. In every case the local property-owning voters could be expected to demand value for money in a manner that is unthinkable under our present over-centralised system.

One key feature of the recent boom has been the rush of wealthy Irish people to buy property in Spain, France, Florida and many more exotic places. In every case they pay property tax without apparently suffering any serious hardship. Isn't it about time that those of us with property in Ireland contributed, proportionately, to our national revenues? - Yours, etc,


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## ubiquitous (29 Oct 2008)

This letter is riddled with errors, examples below. Frankly, I'm surprised it was deemed fit for publication in the self-styled "paper of record".



> 4. Transparency: In theory rental income is taxable but in practice most rental income is undeclared...


Codswallop



> ..since the Revenue Commissioners have no means of connecting property ownership to PPS numbers.


More codswallop.



> A transparent property tax would require a comprehensive public record of property ownership.


Obviously the existence of the Land Registry/Property Registration Authority is beyond the knowledge of Madam's correspondent


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## webtax (29 Oct 2008)

While there may be some minor factual errors on the technical side they do not detract from the well-made points about the merits of a property tax


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## Protocol (29 Oct 2008)

Ubi,

are you sure?

How come so many landlords get away with not paying tax?

Do the Revenue really know who owns each house?

Maybe they do, it's just I'm not so sure.........

Do the LAs have an easy-to-access list of all property owners? I don't think so.........

I think what the letter is getting at is to establish a cadastre.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadastral


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## ubiquitous (29 Oct 2008)

Protocol said:


> Ubi,
> 
> are you sure?


Yes



> How come so many landlords get away with not paying tax?



Do they? Indeed some (but certainly not "most") don't declare their incomes, although those in this category are subject to ongoing Revenue screening and other proceedings.  Many more can validly claim deductions and allowances to bring their taxable rents to or near zero. Many others just pay tax on their profits like everyone else.


Protocol said:


> Do the Revenue really know who owns each house?


Well if they don't, it's their own fault as the information is all on the public record, most or all of it accessible online.


Protocol said:


> Do the LAs have an easy-to-access list of all property owners?  I don't think so.........


 Ditto.



Protocol said:


> I think what the letter is getting at is to establish a cadaster.



a what?


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## Protocol (29 Oct 2008)

So I can go online and find out who owns any property?

How?  Is it free?


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## ubiquitous (29 Oct 2008)

landregistry.ie

Its not free.


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## z103 (29 Oct 2008)

Reason against a property tax;

The real problem isn't taxation, it's the *government spending too much* We should be reducing government spending, not thinking up new taxes.


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## Protocol (29 Oct 2008)

The tax collected by the State and the spending are among the lowest in the EU already.


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## ubiquitous (29 Oct 2008)

Protocol said:


> The tax collected by the State and the spending are among the lowest in the EU already.



as a % of what? GDP? 

In Ireland's case, GDP is a notoriously unreliable economic indicator, as it is artificially inflated by the transfer pricing policies of the multinational manufacturing sector. That hasn't stopped various vested interests including journalists and politicians from claiming that we have the "lowest health/education/whatever spending in the EU/OECD/whatever as a percentage of GDP" even though they know that the statistics are bogus.


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