# Legal provisions for clubs/associations? Outside scope of HS&W@W Act?



## j26 (21 Jun 2011)

This is a bit of a specialist question, but are there any specific legislation dealing with the duties and responsibilities of members and officers of clubs? 

I know that clubs serving alcohol need to be registered, and there are specific requirements, but that won't be an issue with this club.

I have become involved with a club where the activities would be considered to be high risk, and there are real risks of injury.  Waivers have been signed, and we are working on equipment and training standards.  We are also currently looking into public liability insurance and have quotes. 

 At the moment I'm most interested in 2 questions;


Am I correct in my belief that it is outside the Health and Safety at Work Act, since it is a private association, and all participants are volunteers?
The potential liabilities of members vis-a-vis each other, and the committee and certain designated officers such as the safety officer and training officer - is there any specific legislation, or will it just be the usual negligence principles?


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## One (22 Jun 2011)

I am in the exact same situation as you at the moment.

1/. I think you are correct. That is my understanding as well.
2/. Without knowing what the activity is, I don't know whether legislation applies to your club/association or not. But the usual negligence principles will apply anyway. There is no legislation that applies to our club, but there are various training certificates that we should have. Without those training certificates we are seemingly leaving ourselves much more vulnerable to claims of negligence against us if something should go wrong.


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## j26 (22 Jun 2011)

Thanks.

It's middle ages combat with live steel (swords, axes, knives, spears etc). It's unlikely that there is specific legislation (bar the Offensive Weapons Act) but we've has discussions with local Gardai in relation to that, and we're sorted on that.

Grand so, I'll do up a spiff based on general negligence principles.


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## Leo (22 Jun 2011)

You could contact local boxing clubs or martial arts clubs to see what provisions they have in place. The martial arts will be particularly applicable as they will be using waepons in combat situations. 
Leo


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## j26 (22 Jun 2011)

Good idea.  

Thanks


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## onq (29 Jun 2011)

I am totally unfamiliar with such a situation but I imagine clubs such as archery clubs could shed a light on this.
As you have mentioned this will center on training but   will probably extend to prevention and body armour and safety equipment as well as    correct use of weaponry.

I think that any review of potential issues of negligence could centre on whether there are medical facilities available in situations where it is foreseeable that serious injury could occur.
This could extend to the need to have an air ambulance standing by in the case of life-threatening injury or injuries which could result in permanent disability if not treated within the "golden hour" or other relevant time period.
With any high-risk sporting event where organizers and participants are volunteers [which seems to be two levels below professional and a level below amateur] having a defibrillator available could mean the difference between life or death.

I think you should carry out a full professional health and safety review to give you the answers you need, as opposed to any _ad hoc_ discussions with other amateur/volunteer groups.
Where risk is foreseeable and injury could be mortal you owe it to yourselves to aspire to and attain best practice standards.

There may also be the issue of special licenses for weapons use, as opposed to discussions with local law enforcement.
This may require you to become affiliated to national or international organizations which could offer you support.

This could also be a requirement of any insurance policy, and insurers often call the shots on other matters.
I doubt that public liability insurance will cover what you are doing - specialist insurance may be needed.

I suggest you search far and wide for information and this link may help -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_reenactment

ONQ

             All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot           be                              relied                      upon                                                                                                                                                                                     as   a                         defence             or                                support     -                 in                        and           of                                   itself         -                                               should                                              legal                                             action                            be                                                 taken.
             Competent legal professionals should be asked                    to                              advise        in                                                                                                                                                                                            Real               Life              with                              rights            to                                 inspect                     and                                issue                                             reports                    on                             the                                                                 matters                  at                                               hand.


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## j26 (1 Jul 2011)

Thanks for the detailed response.

Like you say, the insurance is specialist, but we have a reasonable quote.  Training is quite intense, with nobody up to the required standard yet, but it's likely that  and safety gear etc will be vital.

We're in the early stages as yet, but we are taking the safety and legal aspects seriously - it seems many clubs only take these matters seriously when something happens, so we're ahead of the curve in some respects.

I do intend to research in depth, and a professional risk assessment does sound like a good idea, but we'll probably look at it ourselves and try to develop a decent enough system before we do that.


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## onq (1 Jul 2011)

j26.

You say you will _"probably look at it ourselves and try to develop a decent enough system"_.
Not if you've half the sense you seem to have and not if you value your personal freedom you won't.
You came here looking for advice and in an undertaking that's  potentially fraught with risk I think you should gain some perspective.

My response may look detailed to you but I can assure you that it only scratches the surface.
I'm reasonably competent in my own field now and I've had fifteen years of practice to draw on.
You are a layperson without that level of experience so I doubt that you will develop a "decent enough" system.

Even if you do attain some sort of system do you think that "decent enough" will stand up in court if there's a fatal accident?
It won't,without a doubt - governance of hazardous activities requires the best possible standards to be continuously attained.

==============

I didn't use the term best _practice_ lightly.
A health and safety plan is merely a document, but its the training and practice of the principles and precautions therein that keep people safe.

With such a high risk undertaking you will need to show that you have a best practice system of governance with which to ensure your health and safety policies are carried out.
This system will be required document how your organization assessed the  measures you employ to decrease risk, organize activities, marshal the  public, calculate staffing levels for events.

Even were you to take my advice in full there are other things you need  to look at to protect yourself and the members of your organization,  such as the structure of said organization.
I am not a solicitor, but you should at the very least do some research  on the legal implications of amateurs engaging in simulated combat with  real weapons.

It goes far beyond Health and Safety and wondering whether or not you can get away without doing a proper assessment.
You could wind up facing a manslaughter charge if there was a fatal accident and best practice wasn't followed.

Please see the gravity of this before you go further.
These things are not toys for the unwary.
Weapons are made to kill people.

ONQ

              All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot            be                              relied                       upon                                                                                                                                                                                       as   a                          defence             or                                support     -                  in                        and           of                                    itself         -                                                should                                              legal                                              action                             be                                                 taken.
              Competent legal professionals should be asked                     to                              advise        in                                                                                                                                                                                               Real               Life              with                               rights            to                                  inspect                     and                                 issue                                             reports                     on                             the                                                                  matters                  at                                                hand.


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## j26 (4 Jul 2011)

I don't like that you're implying that we're not taking safety seriously. You are weighing in with an opinion that, as you say is remote from the situation. There are specialists in various fields in the group working on other areas, yet you seem to extrapolate from two specific questions I asked that we are being cavalier (excuse the pun).

The reason I'm working on the legals is because we are taking things seriously. This is the same reason we have people working on training requirements, others working on safety protocols (including documentation). Weapons and equipment standards are another issue being worked on. Our membership includes a registered nurse, and the first aiders among us are updating their certs, and finalising a list for the first aid kit. For the reasons above, nobody has actually clashed with metal yet, and in fact the constitution of the club will need to be significantly altered before anyone does (robust disciplinary procedures will be needed).

Of course there is risk involved, and the risk is significant. That's why we want to minimise it. I don't fancy a serious injury, and have no ambitions to injure anyone. Hence my original questions - one on interpretation of an Act, and another a on whether or there are any new pieces of legislation regarding club officers since I qualified,  or that I may have missed. That's one of my parts of a much larger jigsaw


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## onq (4 Jul 2011)

You asked at question 2. in the OP - 

_"The potential liabilities of members vis-a-vis each other, and the  committee and certain designated officers such as the safety officer and  training officer - is there any specific legislation, or will it just  be the usual negligence principles?"_

Following my earlier detailed response in Post #7 above you posted-
_
"I do intend to research in depth, and a professional risk assessment  does sound like a good idea, but we'll probably look at it ourselves and  try to develop a decent enough system__ before we do that."_

I answered in post #8 above in this thread -

_"It goes far beyond Health and Safety and wondering whether or not you can get away without doing a proper assessment.
 You could wind up facing a manslaughter charge if there was a fatal accident and best practice wasn't followed
_
_Please see the gravity of this before you go further.
 These things are not toys for the unwary.
 Weapons are made to kill people.__"._

These are statements, not implications, and I didn't use the word "cavalier".

Would you not agree that citing _decent enough_ in response to strong advice that _best practice_ is needed seems inadequate?
Allowing a fatal accident to occur because you didn't follow _best practice_ could result in a charge of gross negligence leading to manslaughter.

==================

Allow me to illustrate.

I saw an archery session recently, closely supervised by a trained  instructor, who at the very start warned the participants not to raise  the bow from pointing at the ground unless they were shooting at the  target and never to point it at the seated onlookers behind the line.

Sure enough, the first person to take up the bow adopted the stance,  waited until the instructor had turned to the next person on the line of  three. He then promptly turned to talk to one of his friends, bow raised,  arrow nocked. In this case an observant onlooker gave the alarm and  a potentially fatal accident was averted. The bowman was less than 4m from the  seated people and clearly hadn't thought about teh potentially fatal consequences of his actions.

Thus, accidents can happen very easily, even under trained  instruction where sequential steps have to be taken before a "blow" is  struck. You don't have that luxury in a lethal weapons fight when the  blood is up. Most people don't have the necessary emotional muscles  to deal with the effects of their own adrenaline systems unless they are experienced martial artists.

For the record the people whom the bowman put at risk in the above example weren't trained, weren't wearing armour, weren't participating in a formal competition.
They were onlookers, and several were women and children.

ONQ.


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## csirl (4 Jul 2011)

A couple of points.



> The reason I'm working on the legals is because we are taking things seriously. This is the same reason we have people working on training requirements, others working on safety protocols (including documentation). Weapons and equipment standards are another issue being worked on. Our membership includes a registered nurse, and the first aiders among us are updating their certs, and finalising a list for the first aid kit. For the reasons above, nobody has actually clashed with metal yet, and in fact the constitution of the club will need to be significantly altered before anyone does (robust disciplinary procedures will be needed).



From reading this thread, it appears that your club is developing its own requirements/protocols etc. I would agree that middle age combat is not the most common 'sport' in Ireland, but there are some groups out there and there must be quite a few internationally. Surely other groups in Ireland and elsewhere have already developed all these things, and have the benefit of years of experience of doing so. It would be much wiser to adopt tried and tested protocols than to develop your own. If there is a national or international organisation that you can become a member of, you should do so.

I do some voluntary work for a national sports organisation in a sport which would be regarded as somewhat dangerous. Various experts in this area always strongly advocate adherance to International best practice and putting in place safety measures which are appropriate, given the resources available and level of competition etc. 

If you were a dangerous sport, the above would probably include the following:

1. Activities must be supervised by a certified coach (certified by recognised coaching organisation i.e. not 'self certified).
2. All equipment/gear must conform to the minimuim safety standards specified in the sports rules.
3. Appropriate first aid cover must be in place.
4. Venue must conform with certain min. safety standards (for both public and participants).
5. Certified officials (referees) must be present.



> Our membership includes a registered nurse, and the first aiders among us are updating their certs, and finalising a list for the first aid kit.


 
For most 'dangerous' sports, the required first aiders cannot be participants as they themselves may be the injured persons requiring treatment. Even if you have multiple first aiders, you can have more than one injured in an incident. Its also best practice to have objective independent first aiders as participants (even non-playing ones) can have their judgement impaired by virtue of having a vested interest.


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