# Mahon Tribunal



## Sunny (22 Mar 2012)

15 years and a few hundred million quid later.

Liam Lawlor and Padraic Flynn along with others were corrupt and Bertie Ahern wasn't truthful.

Well, I am shocked...........


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## thedaras (22 Mar 2012)

Agreed.. this is what it takes to get the truth!


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## Shawady (22 Mar 2012)

You mean Bertie didn't win it on the horses? 

Seriously though, if there was a evidence of corruption with Flynn and Lawlor, why can't it go through a court of law rather than a tribunal?


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## DB74 (22 Mar 2012)

While I agree that the cost of the Tribunal is GUBU  I am delighted that the likes of Pee Flynn, Ray Burke, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern et al have had their reputations and legacies publicly and officially ruined for all time


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## thedaras (22 Mar 2012)

Well said DB74..
Delighted to hear that Enda Kenny is sending the documents to the Garda Commissioner,The DPP, The Revenue Commissioners and the Standards in Public Office Commission...hopefully this will sort it.


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## Slash (22 Mar 2012)

DB74 said:


> While I agree that the cost of the Tribunal is GUBU  I am delighted that the likes of Pee Flynn, Ray Burke, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern et al have had their reputations and legacies publicly and officially ruined for all time



They probably don't see it that way. What are the bets Pee Flynn issues a statement that he has been "totally vindicated"?

Seeing that photo of Ray Burke geting into a prison van was worth every penny of the 250 million.

IndaKinny has made a comment about Bertie and his behaviour. I am no friend of FF, but that seems distasteful to me. Inda should just say nothing and let FF, the DPP, et al deal with it as they see fit. After all, Bertie is no longer a sitting TD (thankfully).


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## T McGibney (22 Mar 2012)

Slash said:


> IndaKinny has made a comment about Bertie and his behaviour.



Who or what is IndaKinny?   Do you mean the Indo?


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## RonanC (22 Mar 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Who or what is IndaKinny?   Do you mean the Indo?



Enda Kenny said in Enda's own accent


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## ninsaga (22 Mar 2012)

DB74 said:


> While I agree that the cost of the Tribunal is GUBU  I am delighted that the likes of Pee Flynn, Ray Burke, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern et al have had their reputations and legacies publicly and officially ruined for all time



.... grand... but us tax payers will still be paying is gubbermint pensions no matter what!!! Where's the justice in that?


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## dockingtrade (22 Mar 2012)

at least bertie owes tax on income recieved plus penalties and interest.....yes?  regardless of the source


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## RMCF (22 Mar 2012)

Do you think we let the world in crooked politicians?

Growing up I always heard Italy was crooked, but the last few decades have shown us to be out in front of them.


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## Delboy (22 Mar 2012)

the misery some of these politicans have plunged families (long commutes, negative equity, unsafe housing, boom to bust and emigration etc).....for 5k here and 10k there...whilst a handful of developers/land owners made tens of millions
how they sleep at night and get up out of bed every day is absolutely beyond me


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## roker (22 Mar 2012)

They are going to kick Bertie out of the party, does that mean he will not get his pension? i hope


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## Delboy (22 Mar 2012)

roker said:


> They are going to kick Bertie out of the party, does that mean he will not get his pension? i hope



they're kicking him out of FF....will have zero impact on his state pension of 150k


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## Leper (23 Mar 2012)

I cant understand why the Garda Commissioner, Revenue Commissioners, DPP etc are waiting on Enda Kenny for instructions to proceed further. I would have thought they should act of themselves and immediately. I hope they wont forget to go after the crooked planners, administrative managers, clerical cohorts, lackeys etc either.

Just wait . . . in another two weeks all this will have been forgotten, as usual.


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## thedaras (23 Mar 2012)

Leper;





> Just wait . . . in another two weeks all this will have been forgotten, as usual.


My thoughts exactly..Whatever about the time and money spent on the tribunal,for me its the fact that we all know that this is a seven day wonder and as Leper said,will have been forgotten in two weeks .
That is the sickening part..


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## NOAH (23 Mar 2012)

whats the difference with enda and his crew saying before the election we will do this this and this and then once elected acting like all the others,  extra pay for advisers,  junior ministers ??  and so on.  We get the people we deserve ie we voted for them.

they are all


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## DB74 (23 Mar 2012)

NOAH said:


> whats the difference with enda and his crew saying before the election we will do this this and this and then once elected acting like all the others,  extra pay for advisers,  junior ministers ??  and so on.  We get the people we deserve ie we voted for them.
> 
> they are all



You really think there's no difference?


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## liaconn (23 Mar 2012)

NOAH said:


> whats the difference with enda and his crew saying before the election we will do this this and this and then once elected acting like all the others, extra pay for advisers, junior ministers ?? and so on. We get the people we deserve ie we voted for them.
> 
> they are all


 
Not condoning some of FG's behaviour but it is nowhere near on a par with what Bertie and his like have done to this country, actions that will haunt many people for years to come as they struggle to pay huge mortgages on properties worth nothing,  raise families in half finished estates miles from shops, schools and public transport and face long soul destroying commutes to work (if they're lucky enough to have a job)that leave no time for any kind of  work life balance.


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## dereko1969 (23 Mar 2012)

NOAH said:


> whats the difference with enda and his crew saying before the election we will do this this and this and then once elected acting like all the others, extra pay for advisers, junior ministers ?? and so on. We get the people we deserve ie we voted for them.
> 
> they are all


 
This kind of statement worries me that people in this country have learned absolutely nothing, it really beggars belief.

Surprised Cork hasn't come on defending FF yet.


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## ninsaga (23 Mar 2012)

dereko1969 said:


> T.....Surprised Cork hasn't come on defending FF yet.



'twould never happen in Jack Lynch's time!


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## dereko1969 (23 Mar 2012)

Course I meant this person......


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## Birroc (24 Mar 2012)

liaconn said:


> Not condoning some of FG's behaviour but it is nowhere near on a par with what Bertie and his like have done to this country, actions that will haunt many people for years to come as they struggle to pay huge mortgages on properties worth nothing, raise families in half finished estates miles from shops, schools and public transport and face long soul destroying commutes to work (if they're lucky enough to have a job)that leave no time for any kind of work life balance.


 
I often think back and consider would things be any different now if say FG had come to power in 2002. Would they have regulated the banks better, would they have slowed down the housing bubble? Would their leaders have succumbed to the corruption within FF?

All I remember are giveaway budgets from FF during thise false 'boom' years where they were throwing cash around all over the place and FG and Lab would come on the airwaves saying "they did not go far enough". And FG/Lab councillors proved themsevles just as dodgy in terms of expenses and corruption during the boom years as their FF counterparts.


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## joe sod (24 Mar 2012)

whatever you say about fianna fail, they were democratically elected 3 times in a row, everyone knew in 2007 that bertie had got money under the table and that the planning process throughout the country not just in dublin was corrupt, yet the irish people put them back into government in 2007, nobody wanted to believe the truth they wanted to believe in the fianna fail fairy tale then. At this stage i think it is better that the whole country admits to the mistakes that were made and takes responsibilty for them. At the end of the day fianna fail and bertie ahern were just incompetent parish pump politicians that we freely chose to re elect time and time again, they were not puppet politicians put there by moscow like what happened in eastern europe, or a colonial government like what happened in the past


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## DrMoriarty (24 Mar 2012)

joe sod said:


> At this stage i think it is better that the whole country admits to the mistakes that were made and takes responsibilty for them.


If by "taking responsibility" you mean that proven liars and corrupt politicians should be prosecuted, expelled from their parties, have their ministerial pensions removed and their assets seized, then I'm with you.

There was nothing "incompetent" about Fianna Fáil or Bertie Ahern's actions.


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## Delboy (24 Mar 2012)

why cant we pass a law that allows for the removal of pensions from anyone who gets one from the Govt if they are convicted in a court or found against in a tribunal, etc etc
I really think that would scare a lot of the corruption out of public life...not it all, but a lot of it


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## Duke of Marmalade (24 Mar 2012)

Michael Martin says he believed Bertie.  What? that he won it on the horses?  Michael is either very gullible indeed or maybe he's telling a little porky.


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## oldnick (24 Mar 2012)

Am up North at the moment and the main surprise of people around me is that people down there seem in any way surprised by any of the findings. 

It is taken for granted by most here that this is how Free State politicians act and that this corruption has been long accepted  by the majority in the twenty-six counties. Old Sod says it in his post_ "we freely chose time and time again to relect_".

When the Duke of M says in his post " _Michael is either very gullible or maybe is telling a little porky"_ would it be just as correct  to say most of the voters were very gullible or knew he was telling porkies - but didn't care. ?


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## Duke of Marmalade (24 Mar 2012)

_oldnick_ I meant that maybe Michael is telling a porky (about believing Bertram) but my comment could equally be interpreted as you have.

BTW the House of Paisley or the House of Robinson could not really be held up as role models of ethics in politics.  Are you sure that your 6 county friends are not saying to you "why are the paddies getting their underwear in such a twist, we would never spend 300M investigating such peccadillos"


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## Delboy (25 Mar 2012)

Martin served under Haughey,Reynolds and Ahern......does he really think that the public think he knew nothing of what was going on in any of those regimes. He's either telling blatant lies or else he's too stupid to have seen what was going on/be involved>
either way, FF have to get rid of him
(personally I hope FF hold on to him, O'Dea et al...it's a good reminder to the voting public of the true FF)


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## Black Sheep (25 Mar 2012)

Careful with the word "lies". Maybe they are mere untruths.

Pee appears to have told lies and Bertie untruths


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## blueband (26 Mar 2012)

the world and its mother knew bertie and FF were corrupt for years, strange that we didn't really care about this when he was telling us that our houses were going to keeping incresing in value by thousands every year! or that the boom was going to get boomier! but now that things have gone pear shaped, well he's a crook, get rid of him ect.
we dont care how corrupt anyone is.........just so long as they are telling us what we want to hear.


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## Purple (26 Mar 2012)

blueband said:


> the world and its mother knew bertie and FF were corrupt for years, strange that we didn't really care about this when he was telling us that our houses were going to keeping incresing in value by thousands every year! or that the boom was going to get boomier! but now that things have gone pear shaped, well he's a crook, get rid of him ect.
> we dont care how corrupt anyone is.........just so long as they are telling us what we want to hear.



I'd love to be able to disagree with you.


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## blueband (26 Mar 2012)

at last we agree! lol


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## ontour (26 Mar 2012)

DrMoriarty said:


> If by "taking responsibility" you mean that proven liars and corrupt politicians should be prosecuted, expelled from their parties, have their ministerial pensions removed and their assets seized, then I'm with you.
> 
> There was nothing "incompetent" about Fianna Fáil or Bertie Ahern's actions.




What baffles me is that they managed to spend between €250-300 million euro and not prove where the money came from.  The also failed to prove that he was responsible for accruing any benefit to the developers.

As has been said the dogs on the street knew what was going on.  Now we are taking a revisionist viewpoint and pretending we all thought that they were not on the take.

The Mahon report being referred to the DPP and Gardai is pure political optics.  It is to make the foolish general population believe that something is being done.

The findings of the Mahon report are barely more useful than what could be drawn from Indo journalists over the years.


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## blueband (26 Mar 2012)

ontour said:


> What baffles me is that they managed to spend between €250-300 million euro and not prove where the money came from. The also failed to prove that he was responsible for accruing any benefit to the developers.
> 
> As has been said the dogs on the street knew what was going on. Now we are taking a revisionist viewpoint and pretending we all thought that they were not on the take.
> 
> ...


 +1 good post.


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## csirl (27 Mar 2012)

I dont get the way the media arent all over Michael Martin for trying to distance himself from characters in the Mahon Tribunal. The report mentions that he was the recipient of donations from Owen O'Callaghan as this time - see details below (wont let me cut and paste into this post for whatever reason). I agree the Report does not implicate Martin in anyway and mentions that he got less money than e.g. Liam Lawlor. But, it is concerning that the current leader of the opposition was in receipt of a policial campaign donation, of what would have been considered a large sum of money at the time, from one of the central figures in the Tribunal. The report also mentions that O'Callaghan's company made a charitable donation at the request of Martin.

Item #8 on page 122
Paragraph 1.235 page 725
Paragraph 22.44 page 1004
Paragraph 22.52 page 1006


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## Bronte (27 Mar 2012)

How can the reports findings be used by the DPP, gardai and revenue.  On what basis.  The report states that it does not believe the 10 people who say they loaned Bertie money. But there is no proof either that they did or didn't.  It's taken 14 years and 300 million and nothing will happen to anyone.  That's the real scandal.  That report is just as good as any newspaper report I've read in the last 14 years but that didn't cost me and you 300 million.


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## csirl (27 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> How can the reports findings be used by the DPP, gardai and revenue. On what basis. The report states that it does not believe the 10 people who say they loaned Bertie money. But there is no proof either that they did or didn't. It's taken 14 years and 300 million and nothing will happen to anyone. That's the real scandal. That report is just as good as any newspaper report I've read in the last 14 years but that didn't cost me and you 300 million.


 
The Bertie loan money forms only a small part of the report. While it cannot say where he got the money from, it does confirm that he received this money, so, it can be regarded as taxable income by Revenue.

Likewise with the considerable sums of money paid out to quite a sizeable number of individuals mentioned throughout the report. Revenue can check whether or not the individuals declared the income and paid tax on it. Some 15-20 years later, there will be a considerable amount of tax and penalties on even some of the more modest undeclared income. 

I assume that the CAB has a strong case to confiscate some of the assets accumulated by some of the individuals mentioned in the report arising from their corrupt activities.

And, while the reports themselves cannot be used as evidence, they do contain exhibits and statements which can be used by the Gardai to prosecute for corruption. I myself will be very annoyed if the Gardai/DPP do not manage to put a few individuals behind bars. The report has done most of the hard work, only a matter of following up for them.


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## Bronte (27 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> The Bertie loan money forms only a small part of the report. While it cannot say where he got the money from, it does confirm that he received this money, so, it can be regarded as taxable income by Revenue.
> 
> .



Well let's just take this small amount of money.  165K I think it was.  How is it taxable if Bertie tells revenue it was gifts or loans and if he demonstrates he has paid it back.  I think he's already made a settlement with revenue so what else can they go after him for?

Do you actually really believe anyone will go to jail? Nobody does real jail time for white collar crime, certainly not politicians.  Only if you falsify garlic vat returns and are a nobody it seems do you get a hefty sentence.  

What is going to happen is that revenue/cab/gardai/dpp are going to spend years investigaging this and if they do decide to go after someone, no doubt that person will fight it in the courts and then that person will be 70 and no point jailing somebody elderly.


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## liaconn (27 Mar 2012)

Birroc said:


> I often think back and consider would things be any different now if say FG had come to power in 2002. Would they have regulated the banks better, would they have slowed down the housing bubble? Would their leaders have succumbed to the corruption within FF?
> 
> All I remember are giveaway budgets from FF during thise false 'boom' years where they were throwing cash around all over the place and FG and Lab would come on the airwaves saying "they did not go far enough". And FG/Lab councillors proved themsevles just as dodgy in terms of expenses and corruption during the boom years as their FF counterparts.


 
I agree that some FG/Lab Councillors were also dodgy. But the corruption and greed and lack of ethics that defined the last FF Govt does not seem to be hardwired into FG and Lab in the same way.


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