# Is it possible for my pregnant non EU Partner to move to Ireland ?Fatherly options ?



## TheSaint (6 May 2010)

I searched the forum labels and read the guidelines before choosing this sub forum. I apologise in advance if I choose incorrectly.

The problem I am looking for advice about is as follows :

I am in a long distance relationship with a lady who resides outside of the EU. We took all reasonable precautions however she is currently pregnant with my child. 
We have a really good relationship and would have a couple more kids if our relationship lasts. She is very well off with her own apartment and a good career so money doesn't come into it. It is clear that whatever responsibilities I want as a father is up to me. I can walk away if I so wish and they would both be very well off with a high standard of living  without any financial input from myself.
Now of course before someone lays into me with some trolling about my parental responsibilities let me be clear that I want to be the best dad I can possibly be and this post is all about being the best dad therefore walking away is not an option. I would wish for my children to be close to me and speak English  as well as I do. I would wish for regular contact with the child.

My problem is I do not want to get married as a means of allowing my new family to live with me. I feel it is too soon in our relationship for marriage. Is it possible for my girlfriend to live in Ireland with me while we figure things out ?
Does  a non EU citizen having my child who will be an Irish citizen give any rights in this respect ?
Also can I claim child benefit for the child since it will be born outside of the EU ? It would seem strange to be paying taxes for child benefit going to the rest of the EU yet have no rights to child benefit for my own child. This will be my first child therefore I have zero knowledge in dealing with the social welfare aspects of our government.  Apart from free University fees. I have managed to live independently of any state supports up till now. 

Can someone who is in a position of knowledge about any aspect of this type of situation offer me some compassionate advice ?


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## tenchi-fan (6 May 2010)

She might consider trying to enter the country on a tourist visa.
I doubt she has any automatic right to live here just because she is pregnant. You can't even prove she is pregnant with your child - not that it would make any difference. I doubt she would get through immigration.

Even when she gives birth you will not have any automatic rights to the child. You will have to be awarded rights in court - both in Ireland and the foreign country. 

Under Irish law only the mother has natural rights, and if she is married (or gets married) to someone else before the birth of your child - the father of the child will be her Husband. Not you. 

Also don't forget you are not just dealing with Irish law. You are dealing with the laws of the foreign country too.  One set of laws can contradict the other so you are looking at a legal minefield. There are cases of men having to adopt their own children just to get them out of one country or into another. Legal fees could run into the tens of thousands. I suggest you get in touch with a solicitor in Ireland, and make arrangements to find a solicitor abroad too as soon as possible.

Of course, when the baby is born and with your girlfriend's support it might be easy to get the child an Irish passport and eventually live as a family in Ireland without any legal red tape. Hopefully this is how it will work out. It would probably be a lot simpler if you were married all the same.


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## Welfarite (6 May 2010)

With regard to Child Benefit, it is usually the mother of the child that claims. Non-EU/EEA citizens must be habitually resident in Ireland to qualify for Child Benefit. Put simply (which is difficult as you'll realise when  you read the link!), she would have to intend to be setting up a permanent home in Ireland. To contiunue to get CB, Non-EU/EEA citizens are also required to certify every 3 months that they and their children continue to live in the State.


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## gipimann (6 May 2010)

The Immigrant Council of Ireland may be able to assist with information on your girlfriend's situation re moving to/staying in Ireland.

http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/index.php


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## haminka1 (6 May 2010)

TheSaint said:


> My problem is I do not want to get married as a means of allowing my new family to live with me. I feel it is too soon in our relationship for marriage. Is it possible for my girlfriend to live in Ireland with me while we figure things out ?



let me understand this? it is too soon in your relationship for marriage but having a baby is just alright? don't want to make it personal, but in my eyes having a baby is the ultimate commitment in a relationship because there is more than the two of you involved - marriage is only about two adults ...


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## haminka1 (6 May 2010)

tenchi-fan said:


> She might consider trying to enter the country on a tourist visa.
> I doubt she has any automatic right to live here just because she is pregnant. You can't even prove she is pregnant with your child - not that it would make any difference. I doubt she would get through immigration.
> 
> Even when she gives birth you will not have any automatic rights to the child. You will have to be awarded rights in court - both in Ireland and the foreign country.
> ...



- actually, this is not completely true : if the OP is registered as the father on the birth certificate, there need be no courts involved - he is basically the father, end of story
- even if they are unmarried, mother of the child can appoint the father as a legal guardian of the baby - this gives the father equal rights and in case something happens, he gets to take care of the baby without having to go through courts

obviously, if the mother resides in another country, it is necessary to check the laws there but i doubt the matter of guardianship etc. will be doubted if he is the biological father /as recognized on the birth certificate/. the only exception might be if the mother is married to another man or has been recently divorced - some countries require that the partner /or recent partner/ of the mother signs that he is not the father of the baby ...


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## tenchi-fan (6 May 2010)

haminka1 said:


> - actually, this is not completely true : if the OP is registered as the father on the birth certificate, there need be no courts involved - he is basically the father, end of story


Yep. In Irish law. It can be different in other countries.



haminka1 said:


> - even if they are unmarried, mother of the child can appoint the father as a legal guardian of the baby - this gives the father equal rights and in case something happens, he gets to take care of the baby without having to go through courts


This relies on the mother not to change her mind.. and as the op said, he doesn't know this woman well enough to get married to her. There's no automatic rights. Once again, it relies on local laws as well as Irish laws. 



haminka1 said:


> obviously, if the mother resides in another country, it is necessary to check the laws there but i doubt the matter of guardianship etc. will be doubted if he is the biological father /as recognized on the birth certificate/. the only exception might be if the mother is married to another man or has been recently divorced - some countries require that the partner /or recent partner/ of the mother signs that he is not the father of the baby ...


It's a legal can of worms. The op would do well to familiarise himself with local laws regarding guardianship, custody, immigration, adoption and everything else which may come into it.

For example, it might be possible to secure legal rights by way of an agreement before the baby is born, while in other countries these agreements would not be valid. Getting his name on the child's birth cert is also very important.

To quote , er, me : "when the baby is born and with your girlfriend's support it might be easy to get the child an Irish passport and eventually live as a family in Ireland without any legal red tape." 

I hope it works out for the op. But he can't just hope for the best - he needs to do some ground work. Asking about child benefit is a bit of a leap.


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## haminka1 (6 May 2010)

tenchi-fan, i also mentioned the fact, that the laws of the other country have to be checked, i only tried to point out that the situation isn't completely without solution
- as for not knowing the woman well enough - as i already said, fathering a child for me means a commitment several steps above marriage so if somebody tells me, i know her well enough to father her baby but not enough to marry her, i find it ridiculous, but hey, that's maybe only the old-fashioned me


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## tenchi-fan (6 May 2010)

haminka1 said:


> tenchi-fan, i also mentioned the fact, that the laws of the other country have to be checked, i only tried to point out that the situation isn't completely without solution
> - as for not knowing the woman well enough - as i already said, fathering a child for me means a commitment several steps above marriage so if somebody tells me, i know her well enough to father her baby but not enough to marry her, i find it ridiculous, but hey, that's maybe only the old-fashioned me



No you're completely right. Which is why i was a bit surprised the op said he "would have a couple more kids if our relationship lasts" but "it is too soon in our relationship for marriage" . but the op asked us not to comment on that!

I think he's being a bit naive. One of my workmates was keeping us all up to date on his friend who is engaged to a Thai girl. I won't drag the thread off topic but some men are very naive.


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## txirimiri (6 May 2010)

Instead of relying on the guess work of contributors to an internet forum, go to www.inis.gov.ie which is the website of the Irish gove immigration and naturalisation service. There is a detailed description of the documents your partner would need to submit to apply for a visa as partner of an Irish citizen in order to reside in Ireland. She also has the option of applying for a tourist visa if she wants to visit you on a short term basis to get a sense of whether your relationship would work out if she moved to live here. (Although presumably if you are in a relationship with her, she has already been here to visit and so has some experience of the visa system?)

I have some experience of the Irish visa system and my one piece of advice would be to read extremely carefully the application form and the exact list of documents needed for the specific type of visa applied for and follow it to the letter. Any missing/untranslated/unclear document pretty much means an automatic refusal - it is a waste of everyone's time submitting an incomplete application.

DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT take technifan's advice and have your girlfriend try to enter as a tourist and then try and either stay here illegally or hope that you can somehow regularise her situation once here by using the she-has-just-had-a-baby-who-is-an-Irish-citizen argument. Also, technifan it is not correct to say that once she is the parent of an Irish citizen, they can live here as a family 'without any legal red tape'. If she is a citizen of a country which requires a visa to visit or reside here, being the mother of an Irish citizen does not magically do away with this requirement. Whatever you do, do it legally and do it properly, otherwise you are storing up years and years of problems for yourself.

Re the guardianship issue, as other posters say it is potentially vastly complicated as presumably the child will be a dual citizen and various laws could apply. If I were you, I would try to establish a serious, though out agreement between the two of you as to what YOU wish your rights and responsibilites to be and stick with it. An agreed solution prioritising the needs and rights of the child re access/guardianship/custody is the only way this will work

Without meaning to be insulting, I find it hard to believe that you are in this very complicated situation with many legal, practical and emotional angles to consider and resolve and you are even asking about your entitlement to 150 quid monthly child benefit! There are vastly more complex issues to deal with - I'd concentrate on them for the time being if I were you. If your girlfriend does end up living here with the child or if the child ends up living here with you, the child benefit part will fall into place.


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## tenchi-fan (6 May 2010)

txirimiri said:


> DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT take technifan's advice and have your girlfriend try to enter as a tourist and then try and either stay here illegally or hope that you can somehow regularise her situation once here by using the she-has-just-had-a-baby-who-is-an-Irish-citizen argument. Also, technifan it is not correct to say that once she is the parent of an Irish citizen, they can live here as a family 'without any legal red tape'.



sorry i didn't mean for the op to take advice to overstay the visa. i was being more facetious than anything

and also the without red tape argument.. i meant that more as a "facts on the ground" case which only applies when the baby is born. It might work assuming his gf plays nicely. but you're right, the op needs to do his homework to secure his rights.


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## fizzelina (7 May 2010)

TheSaint said:


> Does a non EU citizen having my child who will be an Irish citizen give any rights in this respect ?


 
Isn't it the case that the child would be _entitled_ to be an Irish citizen but not _automatically_ an Irish citizen (since baby would be entitled to citizenship of the mother's country)?
Anyway like the other posters say you need to take legal advice. Also I agree with the comments about prematurely asking about child benefit when there are so many legal complications first (and anyway child benefit is paid to the mother usually)


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## csirl (7 May 2010)

I know someone who was in a similar situation - even though the child had an Irish passport and the mother had lived and worked in Ireland for a period of time (legally with all the correct paperwork), when the mother decided she wanted to move to Ireland permanently immigration would not issue a visa and essentially told her she'd no hope of getting one unless she qualified through some other means e.g. getting a work permit for working with multinational or in area of skills shortage.


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## txirimiri (7 May 2010)

fizzelina said:


> Isn't it the case that the child would be _entitled_ to be an Irish citizen but not _automatically_ an Irish citizen (since baby would be entitled to citizenship of the mother's country)?
> Anyway like the other posters say you need to take legal advice. Also I agree with the comments about prematurely asking about child benefit when there are so many legal complications first (and anyway child benefit is paid to the mother usually)


 

Depends on where the Irish parent was born and also where the baby ends up being born. If the baby ends up being born in Ireland and has an Irish parent, s/he is automatically an Irish citizen. If the baby is born abroad but has an Irish-born parent, the baby is also automatically an Irish citizen. If the baby is born abroad and has a parent who is an Irish citizen but was not born in Ireland (i.e. has an Irish born grandparent), they are entitled to apply for citizenship but must go through a Foreign Birth Registration process. So if TheSaint is Irish-born, baby is automatically an Irish citizen irrespective of where s/he is born.

None of this has any relationship to rights that the baby might or not have re any other citizenship.

However, being a citizen and holding a passport are different things - while the child is a minor, the written witnessed consent of both parents in required to issue a passport. If one or other parent will not sign, it gets very complicated. However, the child's autmoatic entitlement to citizenship is not affected - they can eventually apply for their own passport when they get to 18!


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## Yorrick (7 May 2010)

There are so many issues in this case that obviously there is no straightforward answer. The lenght of your relationship, pending birth of child, financial status of the mother, any indication of  marriage etc.

I agree with the contributor that advises starting with the  www.inis.gov.ie site. This is going to be a long drawn out process. Marriage would ease matters but there is no finality even in that scenario.


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## SOM42 (7 May 2010)

TheSaint said:


> I searched the forum labels and read the guidelines before choosing this sub forum. I apologise in advance if I choose incorrectly.
> 
> The problem I am looking for advice about is as follows :
> 
> ...



OK I have some experience in this field so I will try to answer as many questions as I can.  You don't say what nationality your girlfriend is?  Does she require a visa?  She can enter (assuming she gets a visa if necessary) and reside here but not as a tourist.  She would be registered as your partner on the basis that she resides with you.  She would need to explain this to the immigration officer at the airport and then register with either GNIB in Dublin or the local immigration officer outside Dublin.

She would not however be entitled to work or any social welfare with the exception of child benefit.  You would be responsible for both mother and child.

If for some reason things did not work out between you and the mother she would eventually have to leave and in the absence of a court order would bring the child with her.

You say she is well off with a good career.  That will change once she moves and is not entitled to work here.

Best of luck though.  Fatherhood is a great experience!


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