# Do high marginal income tax rates discourage full time skilled labour participation in the workforce?



## Purple (13 May 2022)

We have the highest gap in the OECD between our average and marginal income tax wedge.
Anecdotally I know a high number of skilled people who choose to work part time rather than  fulltime.
With a marginal tax rate of over 50% and high childcare costs the net return for a parent working a full day rather than a half day is very small. 
Does that contribute to the shortages we see in Medicine, Nursing, Speech Therapists etc?

A GP working morning only will earn €80-€100k a year. If they work a full day they'll earn an extra €80-€100k a year but will net €40-€50k a year. If they have 2  children  their childcare costs will be around €20k a year. Why would they bother working full time?


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## Dunelm (13 May 2022)

Who will mind the children in the morning?


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## fidelcastro (13 May 2022)

Purple said:


> We have the highest gap in the OECD between our average and marginal income tax wedge.
> Anecdotally I know a high number of skilled people who choose to work part time rather than  fulltime.
> With a marginal tax rate of over 50% and high childcare costs the net return for a parent working a full day rather than a half day is very small.
> Does that contribute to the shortages we see in Medicine, Nursing, Speech Therapists etc?
> ...


Ireland has had very high PAYE tax rates for modest salaries since the 1970's.  So this is old news.


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## Purple (13 May 2022)

fidelcastro said:


> Ireland has had very high PAYE tax rates for modest salaries since the 1970's.  So this is old news.


I’m the 70’s only one parent worked. The economy was much smaller and the government was smaller again. It’s a totally different scenario now.


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## Purple (13 May 2022)

Dunelm said:


> Who will mind the children in the morning?


The achool


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## Baby boomer (13 May 2022)

The answer to the question is a resounding YES.  Among other things it explains why I'm semi-retired and have time to post here.


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## Protocol (13 May 2022)

Purple said:


> We have the highest gap in the OECD between our average and marginal income tax wedge.



Have you ever seen comparative data on the size of this gap?


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## Purple (14 May 2022)

Protocol said:


> Have you ever seen comparative data on the size of this gap?


I read an OECD report on skills development and the return to the tax payer. It gave a chart and some data there. I'll try to find it.


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## Farma1 (14 May 2022)

Yes.
I work in an industry where due to increased requirement for resource and limited supply of skill, the hourly rate for the job has almost doubled in the last year. You may expect the current workforce to be asking for overtime and 'making hay whilst the sun shines' but actually people are doing the opposite and are thinking  - "great, i can now in the same money if I drop down to 3 days a week and have a better life" and that's exactly what they are doing - making the supply problem worse and continuing the loop.
The marginal tax rate is one factor, but also it indicates that once people reach a wage above a certain amount, (hard to say the figure as it depends on location, life stage etc) they they can have the life they want without earning more money - something we should recognise as a positive about Ireland. More time with family and friends, more sleep, more time to do your hobbies, more time to enjoy the outdoors - is being recognised as more valuable than the difference between a good reliable car and a posh one, or a decent size house vs a huge one that has 5 bathrooms to clean.


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## Protocol (14 May 2022)

https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxation-and-skills-brochure.pdf
		


Is this it?


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## Protocol (14 May 2022)

https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pdf
		


This is helpful, but doesn't seem to compare MTR with ETR.


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## joe sod (14 May 2022)

But is this just a temporary phenomenon "the great resignmemt theme" i mean that people can afford to work less. Already the big tech companies are starting to cut back on recruitment and costs due to the sell off in their shares and the increased expense of everything with high inflation rates and rising interest rates. Things could be radically different in a years time especially as the cost of everything rises and the value of stock options, and pensions falls
Remember how things changed fast after the dot com bust in 2001, falling tech share prices rising energy prices, interest rates and inflation rates


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## peemac (14 May 2022)

The mooted 30% middle rate seems to have been put on ice 

I thought it was a great idea. It's just disheartening that anything you earn over a relatively low amount is taxed at almost 50%.

With inflation playing a big part this year, it would be a time to introduce such a rate for a band of about 6k gradually increasing over 5 years so that you need to earn 55k+ for high rate.


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## Paul O Mahoney (14 May 2022)

peemac said:


> The mooted 30% middle rate seems to have been put on ice
> 
> I thought it was a great idea. It's just disheartening that anything you earn over a relatively low amount is taxed at almost 50%.
> 
> With inflation playing a big part this year, it would be a time to introduce such a rate for a band of about 6k gradually increasing over 5 years so that you need to earn 55k+ for high rate.


We'd be back in the late 80s again with 3 bands , but I agree and my preference would be 15% first 20k, 30% to 70k and 45% above,  I ran these figures years ago 14,13? and it didn't really change the overall take,  but USC wasn't in the equation, and Prsi maximum at about €70k was also in those figures. 

Additionally, I included all income including social welfare in the first tier but obviously that would need tweaking


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## notabene (14 May 2022)

Purple said:


> We have the highest gap in the OECD between our average and marginal income tax wedge.
> Anecdotally I know a high number of skilled people who choose to work part time rather than  fulltime.
> With a marginal tax rate of over 50% and high childcare costs the net return for a parent working a full day rather than a half day is very small.
> Does that contribute to the shortages we see in Medicine, Nursing, Speech Therapists etc?
> ...


A gp has to run their office out of that money too - definitely a disincentive my business students are shocked that their teachers only get 0.40c out of every €1 once the pension leavy is added in at the higher tax rate - SEC can’t get staff to superintend or correct exams because of it also and contributes to being unable afford Life in Dublin too - conditions may also be a factor but definitely part of the reason there is a huge shortage in Dublin and many gone to Dubai etc


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## Zenith63 (15 May 2022)

notabene said:


> my business students are shocked that their teachers only get 0.40c out of every €1 once the pension leavy is added in at the higher tax rate


Imagine their shock when they realise you're on €275,000 a year, the income level at which you actually start to lose 0.50c out of every €1 (before pension levy)


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## Zenith63 (15 May 2022)

peemac said:


> With inflation playing a big part this year, it would be a time to introduce such a rate for a band of about 6k gradually increasing over 5 years so that you need to earn 55k+ for high rate.


Would tax reductions not have the effect of accelerating inflation even further? Or is the proposal to increase the higher rate, so tax take is either neutral or higher but low-mid income households are sheltered somewhat?


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## notabene (15 May 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> Imagine their shock when they realise you're on €275,000 a year, the income level at which you actually start to lose 0.50c out of every €1 (before pension levy)


Find me the teacher who is paid €275,000 we’re far from Robert watt - you wouldnt have a recruitment crisis then


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## Zenith63 (15 May 2022)

notabene said:


> Find me the teacher who is paid €275,000 we’re far from Robert watt - you wouldnt have a recruitment crisis then


It was tongue in cheek sorry. I was just making the point that people often say ‘I lose half my salary to the government’ when they don’t, a single person needs to be on €275k+ before they’re actually paying an effective tax rate of 50%. On €38k a year you’re paying 18c out of every €1 in tax.


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## The Horseman (15 May 2022)

We are a small open economy who need inward investment. This inward investment can be the location of labour and the associated income tax revenue.  

We enter a high income tax level at a relatively low wage amount. Wage earners have the choices how they spend their wages reduced because the money is taken via tax before they get it. 

We need to make work pay and I don't mean give people wage increase as this increases costs to a company and makes us uncompetitive (first para above).

By reducing taxes and by extension welfare payments more people will work and the revenue needed by the State to operate is spread over a wider base.


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## Protocol (15 May 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> It was tongue in cheek sorry. I was just making the point that people often say ‘I lose half my salary to the government’ when they don’t, a single person needs to be on €275k+ before they’re actually paying an effective tax rate of 50%. On €38k a year you’re paying 18c out of every €1 in tax.



That is true......*but*.............people think at the margin.

People think: if I go for progression / promotion, if I do overtime, if I do an extra shift, if I apply to be supervisor, *what income tax will I pay on the extra income?*

The 48.5%% marginal tax rate (MTR) on incomes from approx 36/37k onwards is crazy.

The entry point is way too low.


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## Paul O Mahoney (15 May 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> Would tax reductions not have the effect of accelerating inflation even further? Or is the proposal to increase the higher rate, so tax take is either neutral or higher but low-mid income households are sheltered somewhat?


That would be one of the results, 2 people earning €45k each are really being taxed at too high a level,  90k would in normal functioning economies would be sufficient to live a comfortable life,  of course this is Ireland where any type expectation of actually getting anything back for your tax is an unrealistic expectation.

I personally don't think having 3 tiers of taxation wouldn't be as inflationary as I would imagine that people say in the 40-70k bracket would probably increase savings, but I'm not an economist so I might be way off base.


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## Protocol (15 May 2022)

My suggestion is to reduce the MTR faced by people on 35-50k approx, but not necessarily to reduce effective tax rates.

This means other things would have to change, e.g. tax credits.


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## peemac (15 May 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> Would tax reductions not have the effect of accelerating inflation even further? Or is the proposal to increase the higher rate, so tax take is either neutral or higher but low-mid income households are sheltered somewhat?


To tame wage increases the government probably needs to reduce tax in some form and at a level that is noticeable.

Whilst sinn fein will complain that the lower paid are not benefiting, I'd argue that it is an incentive to work more / progress to have a middle tax rate that doesn't over penalise someone that earns a little over the tax band limit.


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## Purple (16 May 2022)

notabene said:


> A gp has to run their office out of that money too


That's take home pay and it's a very conservative estimate. I used to be married to a GP. She worked full time though and has a large successful practice. Her income is a multiple of the above figure.


notabene said:


> - definitely a disincentive my business students are shocked that their teachers only get 0.40c out of every €1 once the pension leavy is added in at the higher tax rate -


You'd have to question why they are doing business if they don't know that. You can console them with the actual value of the pension and what the teacher would actually have to contribute to fund it themselves (much like the standard old age pension is massively under funded by private sector employees). 



notabene said:


> SEC can’t get staff to superintend or correct exams because of it also and contributes to being unable afford Life in Dublin too - conditions may also be a factor but definitely part of the reason there is a huge shortage in Dublin and many gone to Dubai etc


Yep, it's all part of the same problem. What amazing is that there's actually a net social transfer to middle income households, so if they are squeezed it's not because of the tax they are paying. 
Something is structurally broken.


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## Purple (16 May 2022)

notabene said:


> Find me the teacher who is paid €275,000 we’re far from Robert watt - you wouldnt have a recruitment crisis then


There's no recruitment crisis in teaching. There is in construction but not in teaching.


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## Purple (16 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> That would be one of the results, 2 people earning €45k each are really being taxed at too high a level,  90k would in normal functioning economies would be sufficient to live a comfortable life,


I think everyone should pay some tax. Removing low earners from PAYE is fair enough but they should be paying social insurance and USC.


Paul O Mahoney said:


> of course this is Ireland where any type expectation of actually getting anything back for your tax is an unrealistic expectation.


Only the top 30% of earners are net contributors. Everyone else gets more back than they put in. It costs €7-€8k a year to educate each child. A couple with 3 children has to earn a lot before they pay €21-€24k a year in taxes and that before all the other stuff we all get (when we flush the toilet our poo goes away etc).


Paul O Mahoney said:


> I personally don't think having 3 tiers of taxation wouldn't be as inflationary as I would imagine that people say in the 40-70k bracket would probably increase savings, but I'm not an economist so I might be way off base.


The problem is a combination of high marginal rates of income tax and a doubling of the cost/value of Capital items over the last 12 years. Basically high mortgages and rents. We've doubled the amount of money in the world but wages have gone up by less than 10% so the value of Labour relative to Capital has halved. In effect we've seen the biggest transfer of wealth in the history of the  world from young people to older people by borrowing money and giving it to old people and foisting the debt onto young people. That's at the root of it all. I've no idea how to fix it.


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## PGF2016 (16 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Anecdotally I know a high number of skilled people who choose to work part time rather than fulltime.






Purple said:


> A GP working morning only will earn €80-€100k a year. If they work a full day they'll earn an extra €80-€100k a year but will net €40-€50k a year. If they have 2 children their childcare costs will be around €20k a year. Why would they bother working full time?


I really don't see the problem here. In a rich country people are able to earn enough to not have to work full time. They are prioritizing living their lives over chasing extra money. Is that not a good thing?


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## Purple (16 May 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> I really don't see the problem here. In a rich country people are able to earn enough to not have to work full time. They are prioritizing living their lives over chasing extra money. Is that not a good thing?


It is for the doctor but the cost to the State of educating them has effectively doubled and, despite having very well paid doctors and the most doctors trained per capita of any country in the world, we still seem to have a shortage of full time equivalent doctors. How I know that many of them go home after we train them and a small amount emigrate but most stay here and of that cohort a large proportion who become GP's choose to work part time. 
That's fine for the individual but it's not good for the country.


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## ashambles (16 May 2022)

GP's are a special case and mainly not tax related. GP as a profession is targeted, at least partially, by students who see it as as a high paid, part time job. Changing the tax rate won't change their minds. If you create a third lower rate of tax (say between 35-80k) then for a part time GP it'll just make it even easier to support their lifestyle.

I'd fully agree in general though our tax rates are a problem - it makes it easy to justify deliberately stepping down in income.   Most younger GPs I know never intended working 40 hours weeks in the first place.


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## Purple (16 May 2022)

ashambles said:


> GP's are a special case and mainly not tax related. GP as a profession is targeted, at least partially, by students who see it as as a high paid, part time job. Changing the tax rate won't change their minds. If you create a third lower rate of tax (say between 35-80k) then for a part time GP it'll just make it even easier to support their lifestyle.
> 
> I'd fully agree in general though our tax rates are a problem - it makes it easy to justify deliberately stepping down in income.   Most younger GPs I know never intended working 40 hours weeks in the first place.


The people of Ireland spend around a third of a million Euro training a GP. If the majority are now working part time then the cost to train a fulltime equivalent is over a half a million euro. That's a significant additional cost to the State. Should we require a minimum number of hours to qualify for a GMS contract? At the moment there is no such requirement and their contract gives them plenty of scope to fiddle the system.


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## joe sod (16 May 2022)

peemac said:


> To tame wage increases the government probably needs to reduce tax in some form and at a level that is noticeable.


The biggest own goal the government made regarding inflation was introducing minimum unit pricing in January  , their timing couldn't have been worse and they admitted that this measure alone contributed significantly to the inflation rate in the first quarter.
Even if they couldn't withstand the pressure from specisl interest groups to introduce it they could of at least moderated the minimum unit price that it was set at,  75c rather than 100c per 100g of alcohol would have been tolerable


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## T McGibney (16 May 2022)

joe sod said:


> The biggest own goal the government made regarding inflation was introducing minimum unit pricing in January  , their timing couldn't have been worse and they admitted that this measure alone contributed significantly to the inflation rate in the first quarter.
> Even if they couldn't withstand the pressure from specisl interest groups to introduce it they could of at least moderated the minimum unit price that it was set at,  75c rather than 100c per 100g of alcohol would have been tolerable


The carbon tax is infinitely worse. As bad as they are, at least alcohol price hikes don't directly drive up the prices of everything else.


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## Peanuts20 (16 May 2022)

Is there not a converse argument here, namely that the tax system in Ireland is flexible enough to allow many people return to work part time when perhaps the alternative might be not to work at all?


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## Purple (16 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> Is there not a converse argument here, namely that the tax system in Ireland is flexible enough to allow many people return to work part time when perhaps the alternative might be not to work at all?


Not really. We are making additional economic activity by people who are valuable to the economy and to society unattractive due to high marginal tax rates, coupled with high childcare costs.


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## PGF2016 (16 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> The carbon tax is infinitely worse. As bad as they are, at least alcohol price hikes don't directly drive up the prices of everything else.


Is that not the point. Drive less consumption? And then the tax from necessary consumption is used for green initiatives.


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## T McGibney (16 May 2022)

PGF2016 said:


> Is that not the point. Drive less consumption? And then the tax from necessary consumption is used for green initiatives.


If the point of the carbon tax is to inflate the price of foodstuffs and other essentials, that's one they've been keeping quiet for a long time.


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## Peanuts20 (16 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Not really. We are making additional economic activity by people who are valuable to the economy and to society unattractive due to high marginal tax rates, coupled with high childcare costs.


And yet, the OECD has us below the average for marginal tax rates. 

For anyone I know who has returned to the workplace after having children, the tax rate is not the key issue. It's a host of other factors

the cost of child minding as you called out, 
the inflexibility of the school system ("training days" for teachers during the school term as an example"), 
the inability, in many cases, to live close to where you work, look at the rush hour into Dublin or Cork


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## joe sod (16 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> If the point of the carbon tax is to inflate the price of foodstuffs and other essentials, that's one they've been keeping quiet for a long time.


They would also be working in tandem with putin who is accomplishing the same thing raising the price of foodstuffs and other essentials to hurt the west


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## T McGibney (16 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> And yet, the OECD has us below the average for marginal tax rates.
> 
> For anyone I know who has returned to the workplace after having children, the tax rate is not the key issue. It's a host of other factors
> 
> ...


Schools are in the business of education, not of child minding.


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## Peanuts20 (16 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Schools are in the business of education, not of child minding.


then why don't they educate during the school term instead of taking days off  for "training" . Shops don't close in the run into Christmas to train their staff, Ryanair don't shut down in July for training yet schools think it is perfectly acceptable to do so when they should be open


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## Purple (16 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> And yet, the OECD has us below the average for marginal tax rates.


We have an average tax wedge because low and average earners are very under taxed by international standards but marginal tax rates at and above average incomes are very high.


Peanuts20 said:


> For anyone I know who has returned to the workplace after having children, the tax rate is not the key issue. It's a host of other factors
> 
> the cost of child minding as you called out,
> the inflexibility of the school system ("training days" for teachers during the school term as an example"),
> the inability, in many cases, to live close to where you work, look at the rush hour into Dublin or Cork


Yep, high Capital prices have a serious knock-on impact on the cost of living.


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## Purple (16 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Schools are in the business of education, not of child minding.


Not really. If they were in the business of educating children they would have a shorter school day and a longer school year. Their primary function is keeping teachers happy (or at least trying to as actually keeping them happy is impossible).


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## Zenith63 (16 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> The carbon tax is infinitely worse. As bad as they are, at least alcohol price hikes don't directly drive up the prices of everything else.


The carbon tax increase accounted for about 3% of the increased diesel cost over the last 12 months.  Even if you attributed the increased cost of diesel for all of the last 12 months' inflation, the carbon tax would only account for 0.21% of the 7% 12 month's inflation.  Realistically the figure is a fraction of that because fuel didn't account for the full 7% inflation, rents, mortgage interests, hotels, communications, alcohol all contributed.

Alcohol price inflation accounted for about 0.5% of the total 7% inflation of the last 12 months.

Minimum unit pricing impacted inflation significantly more than the carbon tax.


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## T McGibney (16 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> then why don't they educate during the school term instead of taking days off  for "training" . Shops don't close in the run into Christmas to train their staff, Ryanair don't shut down in July for training yet schools think it is perfectly acceptable to do so when they should be open


Maybe because the school term is long enough for children as it is? A large proportion of Ryanair routes are seasonal so that's a poor analogy.


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## T McGibney (16 May 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> The carbon tax accounted for about 3% of the increased diesel cost over the last 12 months.


You mean the increase in the carbon tax? My rough calculations suggest that the current carbon tax on diesel is circa 14 cent a litre. There's no doubt that's having a major effect on inflation.  Had it been dropped in recent months when it became obvious that the Ukraine crisis was making it superfluous, this would have taken the sting out of the fuel price surge.


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## T McGibney (16 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Not really. If they were in the business of educating children they would have a shorter school day and a longer school year.


???

Did you ever see a child or older student who said they'd prefer shorter holidays?


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## Zenith63 (16 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> You mean the increase in the carbon tax? My rough calculations suggest that the current carbon tax on diesel is circa 14 cent a litre. There's no doubt that's having a major effect on inflation.  Had it been dropped in recent months when it became obvious that the Ukraine crisis was making it superfluous, this would have taken the sting out of the fuel price surge.


Yes thanks I’ve corrected that

I agree that removing the carbon tax would have taken some of the sting out of the price of fuel (though 45c vs 60c per litre is gonna sting either way) and I agree it has caused inflation, I’m just countering the assertion that it was infinitely worse than minimum unit pricing, which itself was apparently a huge inflationary own goal by the government.

We can maybe argue that more than just the most recent carbon tax increase should be considered, but 50% of the carbon tax happened 10 years ago, surely that cannot be blamed in the last 12 months’ inflation?


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## T McGibney (16 May 2022)

Zenith63 said:


> Yes thanks I’ve corrected that
> 
> I agree that removing the carbon tax would have taken some of the sting out of the price of fuel (though 45c vs 60c per litre is gonna sting either way) and I agree it has caused inflation, I’m just countering the assertion that it was infinitely worse than minimum unit pricing, which itself was apparently a huge inflationary own goal by the government.
> 
> We can maybe argue that more than just the most recent carbon tax increase should be considered, but 50% of the carbon tax happened 10 years ago, surely that cannot be blamed in the last 12 months’ inflation?


I think there's a subtle difference between what our arguments are about. You're arguing, correctly, that MUP has contributed more than carbon tax to the inflation rate. I'm arguing that carbon tax has hit most people harder in the pocket than MUP has. A lot harder.


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## peemac (16 May 2022)

joe sod said:


> The biggest own goal the government made regarding inflation was introducing minimum unit pricing in January  , their timing couldn't have been worse and they admitted that this measure alone contributed significantly to the inflation rate in the first quarter.
> Even if they couldn't withstand the pressure from specisl interest groups to introduce it they could of at least moderated the minimum unit price that it was set at,  75c rather than 100c per 100g of alcohol would have been tolerable


I'd totally disagree. It only affected the very cheap drink that supermarkets used as loss making price promotions - some were sold for less than the Duty (+vat). And the point is probably off topic anyway

It was a scourge in society as anti social behaviour was getting worse and worse and it was leading to huge alcohol issues in young people.  

those who now have alcohol issues may never recover, so it may not help them, but it will prevent many people become addicts in the future.

the difference it made in the inflation figures was negligible as promotional prices are rarely included due to the short term nature of the promotions.


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## joe sod (16 May 2022)

peemac said:


> I'd totally disagree. It only affected the very cheap drink that supermarkets used as loss making price promotions - some were sold for less than the Duty (+vat). And the point is probably off topic anyway


Its not off topic as it was a response to the high rates of tax in Ireland and another post about high taxation contributing to inflation. The government has themselves owned up that the MUP was a significant factor in the high rates of inflation since the start of the year.

As for the propaganda that MUP was only to raise the price of the cheapest nastiest beers , thats also false as the main brands like Carlsberg, Heineken , Guinness have risen by 50 to 60% in price, these are mainstream brands not "Dutch Gold". To try and suggest that Guinness is a cheap nasty drink doesn't stand up


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## Purple (17 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> ???
> 
> Did you ever see a child or older student who said they'd prefer shorter holidays?


No, have you ever met a child who formed opinions based on a holistic view on their own medium long best interests???


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## T McGibney (17 May 2022)

Purple said:


> No, have you ever met a child who formed opinions based on a holistic view on their own medium long best interests???


Have you ever met an older student who formed opinions based on a holistic view on their own medium long best interests???


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## Purple (17 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Have you ever met an older student who formed opinions based on a holistic view on their own medium long best interests???


Very few. That further undermines your point. What's best for students is shorter school days and a longer school year. Our current system suits the needs and wants of teachers, not students.


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## T McGibney (17 May 2022)

Purple said:


> That further undermines your point.


Undermines how?


Purple said:


> What's best for students is shorter school days and a longer school year.





Purple said:


> Our current system suits the needs and wants of teachers, not students.


Both sweeping and unsubstantiated statements.


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## Purple (17 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Undermines how?
> 
> 
> 
> Both sweeping and unsubstantiated statements.


We're now completely down the rabbit hole. It might be better if we turned around.


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## T McGibney (17 May 2022)

Purple said:


> We're now completely down the rabbit hole. It might be better if we turned around.


You made a number of wild claims, which you don't appear willing to substantiate. That's fine by me.


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## Purple (17 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> You made a number of wild claims, which you don't appear willing to substantiate. That's fine by me.


 Whatever.


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