# elderly relative has account cleared by friend



## mir2001 (26 Nov 2010)

Hi 
An elderly relative of mine had a friend look in with dinner every day - she paid for the food. I got a phone call some months ago from her and she was worried that the friend was hinting that he needed money. I never heard anything more about it so I forgot all about it. I didn't think the friend was up to anything. Recently it has come to light that, after that call, she got an ATM card for the account and that she had written a note saying the friend could withdraw money for her. She wasn't always able to get out so it made sense for her to allow him to make withdrawals for her. Unfortunately she died recently and when I looked at the statements it seemed that he had cleared a massive amount out of the account (20K+). I'm just wondering if anyone has ever come across anything like this? If they have, maybe they could tell me if the friend can be held accountable for this? Also, should the bank have noticed that an account where only small amounts were previously withdrawn suddenly had the max withdrawal amount taken out several times a week? 
Thanks


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## Ann1 (26 Nov 2010)

If he had gone to a teller with the card to make unusual cash  withdrawals often enough..... it probably would have been noticed. It's  more than likely whoever withdrew the funds went to an ATM machine. You  cannot be sure it was this gentleman unless your relative had absolutely  no contact whatsoever with any other individual. Also she may have  given him permission to withdraw the funds if he needed money and he was  being a friend to her. Why not ask him.


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## mir2001 (26 Nov 2010)

hi thanks for the reply. The pattern of withdrawals are really odd - it only fits if you have a gambling problem in fact. 500 one day, another 500 the next and then another 500 a few days later. All in all, the total amount was cleared out over 5 months. I know for certain that she didn't intend this. I was just hoping somebody might have some experience of something similar. thanks.


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## bullworth (26 Nov 2010)

She really should have had a trusted family member deal with her bank account and take care of her. Its' a bit late to worry about this now. If a non related friend had been the only person caring for me when I was old I d be quite happy if they got everything I had when my time came.  If the money went on bills, a rational person would have kept receipts but it looks like the money is gone. Was the money cleared before or after she died ? Perhaps see a solicitor and look for professional advice about this ?


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## Bronte (26 Nov 2010)

mir2001 said:


> - it only fits if you have a gambling problem in fact. .


  I don't see where you are seeing this?


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## mir2001 (26 Nov 2010)

for starters, I do not live in the same place, I work full time and not as a luxury, in my spare time I have a son to take care of. Unfortunately we do not fit the usual irish profile. There was nobody else left alive to take care of her. I tried on several occasions to get proper help for her, I suggested a home too but I couldn't make the woman accept help. As for the gambling reference - it was just a remark, but I don't know many people who take a grand a week out of their bank account. Certainly an 80 year old woman didn't go through that. I know she didn't intend this for reasons I'm not going into here. She trusted this guy and he completely betrayed that trust. 
Look I was looking to get advice - not moral condemnation.  Provision of care for the elderly is a whole other discussion.


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## truthseeker (26 Nov 2010)

What does the friend say about this?

Over what period of time was the money withdrawn? 

How did it come to light that your relative had written a note allowing this person to make withdrawals?

I do think, if the person was looking after your relative, checking in, sorting dinner, perhaps the odd bit of shopping etc... perhaps your relative told them they could take payment for it? Obviously no way of proving it now but its possible it was condoned by your relative?

Im not sure where the gambling reference comes in, the situation could mean a gambling problem, an addiction problem, someone living the high life, paying off debt, recklessly spending, or nothing. Some of the withdrawals could have been spent on your relation.

I do think you need to ask the person involved what the story is - if they were daily looking after your relation then there may be a reasonable explanation. Its easy to be suspicious, but if this person was giving their time, every day, to keep an eye on and make sure your relation was fed, then it sounds a bit out of the blue that they were scamming your relation - why would you give up so much time if that was the case? Surely itd be easier to take out the daily max amount on the card until the account was empty and forget about looking after the relation once you had the money?


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## mir2001 (26 Nov 2010)

I think maybe I didn't make this clear, the friend cleared 26K between June this year and end October. Now I have a lot of outgoings, including mortgage, but I wouldn't even spend that much. My aunt was paying this person for the dinners. She did call me at one point complaining that the guy was ask for more money ( i got the impression it was a lot) and she said she couldn't be giving him any more money. However the guy seemed really trustworthy and her doctor reckoned she was just old and feeling a bit paranoid. After that she didn't mention it again. I would have been more than happy if she would have gotten some professional service in and spent her money on that. It certainly wouldn't have cost 700 ish per week!!! If thats the going rate I'm changing career.


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## Dachshund (26 Nov 2010)

What does the bank say about the situation? I realise that your aunt is now dead but what happened to her falls under the [broken link removed].


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## mir2001 (26 Nov 2010)

I'm waiting to see some older statements to see if the ones before she gave him her ATM card had anything like those withdrawals. Her solicitor is going to talk to them but I was just trying to see if anybody had experienced anything like this before. I was hoping if someone else had encountered it they might be able to steer me in the right direction.  
This was a woman who didn't drink, smoked 10 cigarettes a day, had no mortgage, no children, didn't even get a paper anymore. Unfortunately she had started to develop a touch of dementia last February. But I know the woman all my life and I know she wouldn't have intended to give that much away. The account wasn't far from being cleared out when she died.


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## Ann1 (26 Nov 2010)

mir2001 said:


> Provision of care for the elderly is a whole other discussion.


From what you say your relative lived happily in her own home until she passed away....and that was her wish.

It would appear you are executor/executrix of the lady's estate as you  have access to her bank statements. You could try and make an  appointment with her bank manager and let him know your concerns. I  personally would not make any accusations as to whom you feel withdrew  the funds.  Request that he investigate when and how the funds were  withdrawn. Ask if they have a copy of the letter your relative wrote to  the bank giving permission for funds to be withdrawn. Suggest he/she  take a look at the letter to confirm that the bank are happy that those  instructions was followed by the bank. Ask him/her if the bank have any  policies in place regarding financial elder abuse. (let this be your  last question.) If your relative disclosed her pin number to a third  party the bank would have lost control of transactions from her account.  If on the other hand the transactions where conducted by a teller the  bank may feel a need to investigate the withdrawals. Remember this is a  very informal approach. Just ask questions ...it is best not to give  opinions.....let the bank draw their own conclusions. If there is a case  to answer the bank will initiate an investigation. 
I still feel you should speak with this gentleman and ask for his input. Your relative could have panicked like the rest of us and thought it best to keep some cash on hand in the event the banks ran out of cash. She may have hidden it somewhere.


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## mir2001 (26 Nov 2010)

First of all, thanks for all your input, funnily enough, for other reasons, I asked the man in question if she had any money stashed in the house and he said no. He said she was talking about going to the bank just before she died to get some petty cash. I hate to keep banging on about this but she could have paid for the services to help her stay at home for a fraction of the costs involved here. This was all ATM transactions.


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## Ann1 (26 Nov 2010)

ATM machines are monitored by CCTV. Make an appointment with the bank manager and let them investigate if they feel there is a case to answer.
[broken link removed]


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## elcato (26 Nov 2010)

Is there any chance someone else may be involved ? You need to report to the bank asap as the CC tv may not be around much longer.


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## Marietta (26 Nov 2010)

Ann1 said:


> Your relative could have panicked like the rest of us and thought it best to keep some cash on hand in the event the banks ran out of cash. She may have hidden it somewhere.


 

I doubt very much that an 80 year old woman on the vedge of dementia would be on AAM or have any knowledge of the impending gloom and doom re deposits.  From where I am looking, this so called friend cleaned the old lady out but I am a firm believer in Karma and one day he will get his punishment tenfold.


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## truthseeker (26 Nov 2010)

OP - the amount you have clarified and the time frame involved - this is definitely suspicious. I would take other posters advice here and speak to the bank and to the 'friend' involved.


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## Ann1 (26 Nov 2010)

Didn't say she was on AAM Marietta. Many of our elderly folk read newspapers  listen to the radio and watch the news on TV. I have an elderly aunt 95  years old who can do addition faster than a calculator. She also rides  the underground in London and uses the bus daily. She likes to keep  large sums of cash on hand because it makes her feel more secure in the  current economic climate. I am just trying to be helpful to the OP.


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## mir2001 (26 Nov 2010)

Hi her solicitor has made an appointment with the bank. However I suspect that her note, that was intended to let somebody else take out cash for her as needed, will give this guy an out. If she hadn't died when she did then the bank account would have been cleared around christmas. I wonder what he would have told her when she needed more money? 
Marietta is correct, she had no real worry about the banks. Her mind was too confused to form an opinion on something like that. On the basis that you learn from your mistakes, I was hoping to see if anybody had gone through this sort of thing before. Thanks to everyone for their contributions.  It's definitely taught me that I need to plan for this kind of thing. I never pushed the idea of looking after her money as I didn't want her to think I was looking for it.


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## SlurrySlump (28 Nov 2010)

Marietta said:


> I doubt very much that an 80 year old woman on the vedge of dementia would be on AAM or have any knowledge of the impending gloom and doom re deposits. From where I am looking, this so called friend cleaned the old lady out but I am a firm believer in Karma and one day he will get his punishment tenfold.


 
Could you imagine if the old lady had a home safe that you have recommended to others in a previous thread?  At least there is a paper trail here.


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## Claire1956 (28 Nov 2010)

All of the points raised are really valid about the person drawing the money and the questions that you have about the frequency etc....but did you think of it from another point of view. Personally I would allow lots of withdrawals from my account as opposed to being put into a home. Perhaps your aunt had that view?

My folks are elderly and would rather spend every last bean on being in their own home as opposed to being in care. Many of my in-laws say that they should be in home, but they would be miserable and it is their life. They are in 80s/90s. 

I am not wanting to undermine your query, but just giving another view. For some people in their twilight years, the freedom of being in their own home is worth more than money in the bank.

You did mention that the sums involved would have kept her at home for a fraction of the cost of ATM w/d. Is there any chance that she had a fear that the home services would push her into going into a home and thus she kept the relationship with the ATM person?


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## niceoneted (28 Nov 2010)

I would be reporting this to the Gardai as there may be an offence disclosed under the following section http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0006.html#partii-sec6

The man may be known to the gardai for similar offences.


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## mir2001 (28 Nov 2010)

Hi niceoneted, thanks for the link - I have to wait for advice from the solicitor but that definitely looks relevant. I think I probably should report this as it would probably be wrong to allow this guy to inflict this on another elderly person. 

This has taught me that you probably need to put provisions in place for money management in case you develop dementia. My aunt was so vulnerable but having never encountered this sort of thing before I didn't spot the need to get more involved. And I too was fooled by this guy.


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## FamilyGuy2 (2 Dec 2010)

mir2001

Had a situation a few years back where the family noticed frequent withdrawals from an elderly relative's account. There was an obvious suspect (would have been classed as a friend) but we of course had no proof (no permission was given, in our case).

Went to the guards and they took it VERY seriously - the guard we dealt with was seriously ticked off and was saying they are seeing more of this.

You've got to move quickly - the withdrawals were all from the same ATM machine and the guards went in to look at the CCTV footage. With this particular bank, they keep their tapes on a rolling basis of a month (maybe it was two months) so the suspect was tied to a withdrawal twice in the time  period that the bank had footage available. If we'd left it longer, the tapes would have been wiped.


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## pnh (2 Dec 2010)

mir2001 said:


> Hi niceoneted, thanks for the link - I have to wait for advice from the solicitor but that definitely looks relevant. I think I probably should report this as it would probably be wrong to allow this guy to inflict this on another elderly person.
> 
> This has taught me that you probably need to put provisions in place for money management in case you develop dementia. My aunt was so vulnerable but having never encountered this sort of thing before I didn't spot the need to get more involved. And I too was fooled by this guy.



Firstly u have my sympathy with this.We came across a very similar situation a couple of years ago with my wifes aunt who lived for many years on her own.It transpired that a male friend of the family had been visiting her regularly-great guy we all thought.What we did not know was that she had been writing cheques to him regularly>When it was discovered and he was approached he said they were loans.The family threatened to alert Revenue and also as he has a good responsible job-his employer .
In the end the matter was handled by the ladies solicitor and though she is now dead he is still -under threat of further legal intervention-having to make monthly repayments.
I wish u a similar successful outcome.


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## mir2001 (14 Dec 2010)

Sorry for the delayed response, only seeing those replies now. Thanks pnh and familyguy2 for the supportive posts, it helps. The guy was found on cctv footage but the credit union are saying she had provided a note so.... 
I have just reported it to the guards and they seemed to be genuinely going to do their best but I get the impression the note may make the situation too ambiguous to get this guy on. I bet he hasn't reported this "income" to the revenue.  I may have to find a solicitor whose expertise lies in this area. Anybody have any recommendations? Thanks again.


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