# Politicians - the next generation



## D8Lady (25 Nov 2008)

Please allow me a little rant...

I had a knock on my door from a would be city counsellor. She is the daughter of the sitting TD. 
This is the third politician-to-be who is the relative of existing TD doing the rounds for the locals. Every single party is doing it. 

I know we have a history of "inheiriting" seats but this is just nuts. She said that she was brought up with it. Given the current state of things, its not a proud boast. It's political inbreeding!


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## z103 (25 Nov 2008)

It is time for something different. Running the country is too important a job to be left to politicians.
We really need a different system of governance. We should adopt the latest technology, and see if we can find a solution.


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## ubiquitous (26 Nov 2008)

D8Lady said:


> Please allow me a little rant...
> 
> I had a knock on my door from a would be city counsellor. She is the daughter of the sitting TD.
> This is the third politician-to-be who is the relative of existing TD doing the rounds for the locals. Every single party is doing it.
> ...



Simple solutions: 
1. Don't vote for her.
2. Go forward for election yourself.


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## MrMan (26 Nov 2008)

leghorn said:


> It is time for something different. Running the country is too important a job to be left to politicians.
> We really need a different system of governance. We should adopt the latest technology, and see if we can find a solution.



i don't quite follow - how do you mean adopt the latest technology to find a solution?


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## Caveat (26 Nov 2008)

MrMan said:


> how do you mean adopt the latest technology to find a solution?


 
Maybe he means some sort of advanced automaton politician?

 - but they will probably be a bit monosyllabic, won't really function or make proper decisions themselves, will probably lack human 'vision' to make long terms plans and will only be interested in quick fixes, and will act only in the interests of self preservation, not for the good of the country.

Oh, hang on...


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## Vanilla (26 Nov 2008)

Or possibly Clubman.

It's easy to say-'go forward yourself' but of course to stand a good chance of being elected one should be nominated by one of the larger parties, and they tend only to nominate, well you see the point.


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## ubiquitous (26 Nov 2008)

Vanilla said:


> It's easy to say-'go forward yourself' but of course to stand a good chance of being elected one should be nominated by one of the larger parties, and they tend only to nominate, well you see the point.



Indeed. That still leaves option no. 1.


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## D8Lady (26 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Simple solutions:
> 1. Don't vote for her.
> 2. Go forward for election yourself.



1. You betcha!
2. Actually - I was involved a bit in a party but saw the way things with family ties etc.  Obama would not be possible in this country. But I didn't push it. The level of abuse politicians get on campaign is awful, I wouldn't be able to take it. 

On a more serious note, how could we get any change when it means literally going against your parents? We're potentially just in for more of the same.


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## NorthDrum (26 Nov 2008)

Thing is, politicians are voted on based on their popularity (normally), not necessarily their credentials.

I was asked to actually run for office from a friend (whos big into politics and wanted to be my campaign manager). His main arguement was that I am really a very good speaker and can relate to crowds.

I talked to one or two people who have been involved in politics and confirmed what I already knew. While its not all full of corruption, its near on impossible to be a politician without giving up your principles or ideals. You cant be a successful politician without thinking about the next election. Joe Public have as much to blame for this as the parties that "canvas" for support by offering Joe Public the answers to all their problems (as opposed to sitting down and going through all the real issues that need long term solutions - until its too late!).

So to be a successful politician you need -

alot of money or funding for canvasing
to be a good speaker
to have a relative who once took up a position in that area
to be able to give bareface lies to the general public
have to be able to make promises that you have no intention of keeping, just to keep people happy at a given time
to be willing to make decisions based on what you know is probobley wrong long term, just to keep your job
I would say you need at least 3 of above to be successful in politics these days . .


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## elefantfresh (27 Nov 2008)

> to be able to give bareface lies to the general public
> have to be able to make promises that you have no intention of keeping, just to keep people happy at a given time



Isnt it very sad that these points are part of the "check list."


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## diarmuidc (27 Nov 2008)

elefantfresh said:


> Isnt it very sad that these points are part of the "check list."


And the funny thing is that, in a democracy, they are the peoples representative. You get what you deserve. There's a reason a guy like Jackie Healy Rae is the South Kerry representative and Eamonn Ryan the South Dublin representative and not visa versa. And you'd have to wonder about the people of North Tipp.


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## Betsy Og (27 Nov 2008)

Plus you have to let on to be interested in everyone's little problem.

While we dream of saving the economy, most of us would be sick to the teeth of attending funerals, plamasing idiots, and getting potholes filled, drains unblocked, street lights fixed etc etc, - hardly affairs of the State but there you go, such is Ireland.


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## MrMan (27 Nov 2008)

elefantfresh said:


> Isnt it very sad that these points are part of the "check list."




One persons view of a check list.


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## MrMan (27 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> And the funny thing is that, in a democracy, they are the peoples representative. You get what you deserve. There's a reason a guy like Jackie Healy Rae is the South Kerry representative and Eamonn Ryan the South Dublin representative and not visa versa. And you'd have to wonder about the people of North Tipp.



But the people in these areas tend to do quite well out of their representatives and like every other area they only care about their immediate surroundings.


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## micmclo (27 Nov 2008)

Michael Lowry does quite a lot for North Tipp, he certainly does more than our other FG backbencher and FF junior minister. I suppose he has all the contacts plus that's all he has to concentrate on, he doesn't need to take instructions from a party whip except on major votes.

I realise the noble thing is ask our TD's to concentrate on legislation and go ahead with programs in the national interest even if it negativly affects the local area. It doesn't work like that, you might call people selfish or maybe NIMBY's but you'd do the same realy

The guy is no danger of losing his seat if he keep doing what he does best


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## Pique318 (27 Nov 2008)

NorthDrum said:


> So to be a successful politician you need -
> 
> alot of money or funding for canvasing
> to be a good speaker
> ...



Don't forget the ability to convince the public that the current problems (whatever they may be) are the fault of the 'opposition' or 'external factors that you had no control over' rather than your own complete ineptitude and lack of vision.



MrMan said:


> One persons view of a check list.


Tbh, I'd hazard a guess that it's many, many peoples view of what politicians are good at....and not much more.

Basically as the saying goes, "If you want to be a politician, you should by definition be prevented from ever becoming one"


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## ubiquitous (27 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> There's a reason a guy like Jackie Healy Rae is the South Kerry representative and Eamonn Ryan the South Dublin representative and not visa versa. [/URL]



Can you explain further?


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## Betsy Og (27 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Can you explain further?


 
I reckon the gezzer 'finks that it all gombeens in Souf Kerry innit, nuffink like that would wash wiv the intelligensi-ah of Souf Dublin.


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## micmclo (27 Nov 2008)

Maybe a jibe that Dublin voters don't do ever do this.

Obviously never heard of Tony Gregory and the "Gregory Deal" in 1982 for Dublin Central
No independent TD will probably ever achieve such a deal again.


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## Mpsox (27 Nov 2008)

D8Lady said:


> 1. You betcha!
> Obama would not be possible in this country.


 
Mary Robinson? Mary McAleese?

Not going to happen for Taoiseach though because the system is very very different. The Taioseach would need to be nominated by a vote of Fianna Fail members and elected by an election.

In fairness to the children/family of politicians running for office, they grew up in politics and around elections, probably canvassed for their relative so are used to knocking on doors and the family name means that if their relative did a favour for a voter in the past, likelyhood is that it will be remembered. 

Doesn't just happen in Ireland either, what about the Kennedys and Roosevelts in the US?


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## ubiquitous (27 Nov 2008)

micmclo said:


> Maybe a jibe that Dublin voters don't do ever do this.



Be fair to the man. He can hardly mean such a thing. Sure didn't the people of Dublin elect and re-elect Liam Lawlor? And didn't Bertie Ahern build his political empire on being the Northside FF equivalent of Jim'll Fix It? Not to mention CJH and Ray Burke 

On another level altogether, I would far prefer to have Jackie Healy-Rae as my TD rather than Eamonn Ryan, who I'm sure is a nice and kind man, but who comes across as terribly smug and self-important in his all-too-regular media appearances.


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## Caveat (27 Nov 2008)

I agree with all in your post Ubi.


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## Simeon (27 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> I reckon the gezzer 'finks that it all gombeens in Souf Kerry innit, nuffink like that would wash wiv the intelligensi-ah of Souf Dublin.


Hey! Leave our Jackie alone. At least he never took the government copter to open an off-licence (or a new road) in south Kerry  knowwadImeen, like, Innit!


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## diarmuidc (27 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> I reckon the gezzer 'finks that it all gombeens in Souf Kerry innit, nuffink like that would wash wiv the intelligensi-ah of Souf Dublin.



No that's not it, I'm from Kerry myself. But fair play for jumping to conclusions. I mean that people elect politicians with whom they can associate.


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## ubiquitous (27 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> No that's not it, I'm from Kerry myself. But fair play for jumping to conclusions. I mean that people elect politicians with whom they can associate.



Apologies for jumping to conclusions. I must read your posts more clearly in future before replying.

That said, I'm still a little puzzled, though. 

What did you mean when you said 





			
				diarmuidc said:
			
		

> You get what you deserve.


 and why do you


diarmuidc said:


> ..have to wonder about the people of North Tipp.


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## Betsy Og (27 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> But fair play for jumping to conclusions.


 
yerrah you're alright lad, dont take it to heart, I'm a mucksavage too, but at least ye get to win the All-Ireland every other year


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## diarmuidc (27 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Apologies for jumping to conclusions. I must read your posts more clearly in future before replying.
> 
> That said, I'm still a little puzzled, though.
> 
> What did you mean when you said  and why do you


 
We, the people, can hardly complain about the (negative) qualities of our politicians when we elect them, *especially* when we know their track record before hand. We act all shocked and indignant when a politician racks up a $400 bill in a hair salon or are found to have evaded tax but then we go out and re-elect them. 

Of course politicians are going to have the traits listed above because it is rewarded at the ballot box.


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## diarmuidc (27 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> yerrah you're alright lad, dont take it to heart, I'm a mucksavage too, but at least ye get to win the All-Ireland every other year



It's ok, I would probably have jumped to the same conclusion. I should have been more clear.


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## Simeon (27 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> it's Ok, I Would Probably Have Jumped To The Same Conclusion. I Should Have Been More Clear.


Mas?


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## NorthDrum (27 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> We, the people, can hardly complain about the (negative) qualities of our politicians when we elect them, *especially* when we know their track record before hand. We act all shocked and indignant when a politician racks up a $400 bill in a hair salon or are found to have evaded tax but then we go out and re-elect them.
> 
> Of course politicians are going to have the traits listed above because it is rewarded at the ballot box.


 
Agreed.

I didnt really clarify my point well but thats what I am saying. The people get the government it demands.

Why do you think the opposition partys stance is always that to what public popularity is?    This is also why long term financial objectives or requirements seldom get done!

Whats coming out in the press about lavish expenses wasting public money by our elected officials, to be honest its nothing new here or abroad (look at sarah palins wardrobe costs). What happened was we (the public) were to busy looking after our own self interests to really scrutinise the clowns running the country.


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## Caveat (27 Nov 2008)

NorthDrum said:


> Why do you think the opposition partys stance is always that to what public popularity is?


 
I certainly don't think it's that simple.

Opposition parties will criticise and disagree with the party in power to emphasise their differences more so than anything I would say.


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## NorthDrum (27 Nov 2008)

Caveat said:


> I certainly don't think it's that simple.
> 
> Opposition parties will criticise and disagree with the party in power to emphasise their differences more so than anything I would say.


 

Ah come on. Its not ALWAYS the case, but I think you could say more often then not they will jump on the bandwagon of popular opinion if it means public exposure and potentially more votes.

Its just politics.

Its funny cause I know so many people in our country who look at the U.S. and laugh about Bush getting elected twice (myself included) but the phrase "dont throw stones in glasshouses" comes to mind.


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## Green (27 Nov 2008)

Wrong Forum


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## Green (27 Nov 2008)

micmclo said:


> Michael Lowry does quite a lot for North Tipp, he certainly does more than our other FG backbencher and FF junior minister. I suppose he has all the contacts plus that's all he has to concentrate on, he doesn't need to take instructions from a party whip except on major votes.


 
I'm sure he does in between lying to the Dail and evading his tax with the help of big business.


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## Green (27 Nov 2008)

NorthDrum said:


> What happened was we (the public) were to busy looking after our own self interests to really scrutinise the clowns running the country.


 
I agree completely with point...


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## MrMan (27 Nov 2008)

YOBR said:


> I'm sure he does in between lying to the Dail and evading his tax with the help of big business.




He does and I was hoping that people would vote against him last time out as he really shouldn't be representing anybody. I understand that people want someone who produces results, but really do we want someone like this having any power?


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## Green (27 Nov 2008)

MrMan said:


> He does and I was hoping that people would vote against him last time out as he really shouldn't be representing anybody. I understand that people want someone who produces results, but really do we want someone like this having any power?


 
Simple answer, no, we don't.


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## Betsy Og (27 Nov 2008)

YOBR said:


> Simple answer, no, we don't.


 

just a personal opinion but I dont think our North Tipp man is in quite the same league as the Ray Burke's, Liam Lawlor's of this world. If the Pope was dealing with Ben Dunne he'd have found it hard to keep his affairs in proper order - Ben was all for a bit of refrigeration business here and an extension there are sure arent we square now .... and hard to argue with a man of such power.

Not saying it was kosher or said politician shouldnt have done better but not as bad, IMHO, are the real gouger stuff of brown envelopes for planning, intimidation, "Mr Insatiable", "will we get a receipt for this", bursting in on business meetings in" their patch", all that stuff.


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## Green (27 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> just a personal opinion but I dont think our North Tipp man is in quite the same league as the Ray Burke's, Liam Lawlor's of this world. If the Pope was dealing with Ben Dunne he'd have found it hard to keep his affairs in proper order - Ben was all for a bit of refrigeration business here and an extension there are sure arent we square now .... and hard to argue with a man of such power.
> 
> Not saying it was kosher or said politician shouldnt have done better but not as bad, IMHO, are the real gouger stuff of brown envelopes for planning, intimidation, "Mr Insatiable", "will we get a receipt for this", bursting in on business meetings in" their patch", all that stuff.


 
I would refer you to page 70, paragraph 19 of the Tribunal's report. I could refer you to others parts but don't have the time. 

"It would be very damaging if there was a public perception that a person in the position of Government Minister and member of Cabinet was able to ignore with impunity, and indeed cynically evade, both the taxation and exchange control laws of the State. It is an appalling situation that a Government Minister and Chairman of a Parliamentary party can be seen to be consistently benefiting from the black economy from shortly after the time he was first elected to Dail Eireann. If such a person can behave in this way without serious sanctions being imposed, it becomes very difficult to condem others who sililarly flout the law". 

Is that clear enough for you? Lowry is just as bad as Haughey et al.


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## cork (27 Nov 2008)

diarmuidc said:


> No that's not it, I'm from Kerry myself. But fair play for jumping to conclusions. I mean that people elect politicians with whom they can associate.


 

People have become very PC.

They focus in on tiny details and ignore the bigger picture.

Who pays for the make up of Enda Kenny?

Yet - a politician who represents the country cannot get their hair washed?

What expenses do the mandrians at RTE and the Irish Times claim?


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## Betsy Og (27 Nov 2008)

YOBR said:


> Is that clear enough for you? Lowry is just as bad as Haughey et al.


 
I wasnt for canonising the man, but as a matter of interest do you have a fundamental disagreement with discerning different levels of guilt or gravity of offences?

If you were sentencing them would you apply a "flat rate" sentence or would each case be on its own merits? I'm not (I hope) being too argumentative, just wondering if you think theres even scope for differing levels (ignoring the individuals mentioned).

For me (and again this is just a personal view - I'm not battering anyone over the head with it) but I think seeking/demanding corrupt payments is more deliberate and a worse offence than tax evasion... (now I'll jump into my bunker ! )


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## diarmuidc (27 Nov 2008)

cork said:


> Yet - a politician who represents the country cannot get their hair washed?


I think most people have no problem with the expense. The problem was the scale and attitude to these expenses. A $400 hair wash is clearly a waste of money when $50 should be more than enough. If this was a one off thing then ok however the perception is that this waste is duplicated across the public service. Why is this? Because there is no metric for performance and until there is, this will continue.


cork said:


> What expenses do the mandrians at RTE and the Irish Times claim?


Two different cases. I don't care what the IT spends on it's expenses as I don't pay for it. I do pay for RTE hence I do care if there is waste.


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## Green (27 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> I wasnt for canonising the man, but as a matter of interest do you have a fundamental disagreement with discerning different levels of guilt or gravity of offences?
> 
> If you were sentencing them would you apply a "flat rate" sentence or would each case be on its own merits? I'm not (I hope) being too argumentative, just wondering if you think theres even scope for differing levels (ignoring the individuals mentioned).
> 
> For me (and again this is just a personal view - I'm not battering anyone over the head with it) but I think seeking/demanding corrupt payments is more deliberate and a worse offence than tax evasion... (now I'll jump into my bunker ! )


 

I am not going to support a view that there is or could be a hierarchy of offences for elected public representatives or say that certain offences, such as tax evasion,  are ok for them. When you opt to go into public life this should mean compliance with certain standards of behaviour and a duty to uphold the laws of the State. 

You state that tax evasion is the lessor of the two offences, would you still think the same way if a relative died while waiting for an operation on a public health waiting list?


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## Betsy Og (28 Nov 2008)

YOBR - its like - which is worse, rape or murder?

I'd say murder, but both are heinous crimes and its not like I support rape.
The sentences handed out reflect this distinction.

I've always been amused by the hysteria that tax evasion seems to attract on this site, ritual slaughter of babies, puppies and cute little bunnies wouldnt hold a candlelight to it. 

Re the operation - there could never be such a direct link, maybe 2 hairdo's less for Mary & the gals and they could have had the op, maybe 20,000 less people in "sheltered employment" in the Civil Service could have paid for an Op for us all. I know you'll accuse me of equivocation on tax evasion, I dont support tax evasion, but I'm leaving my puritanical zeal in the locker on this one.


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## Green (28 Nov 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> Re the operation - *there could never be such a direct link,* maybe 2 hairdo's less for Mary & the gals and they could have had the op, maybe 20,000 less people in "sheltered employment" *in the Civil Service could have paid for an Op for us all.*


 
Your contradicting yourself, first you say there is no link between tax revenues and public services then you go on to suggest that there is? Which is it? Are you really that niave to think that there is no link between Govt revenues and the services the State can provide? People do die waiting for operations in this country....

As a matter of interest, what standards do you expect of politicians, is it that there are some offences that are ok for you?


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## Betsy Og (28 Nov 2008)

YOBR said:


> Your contradicting yourself, first you say there is no link between tax revenues and public services then you go on to suggest that there is? Which is it? Are you really that niave to think that there is no link between Govt revenues and the services the State can provide? People do die waiting for operations in this country....
> 
> As a matter of interest, what standards do you expect of politicians, is it that there are some offences that are ok for you?


 
Look, I know we wont reach agreement on this so I wont waste your time with endless argument. 

A few closing remarks:
Is an individual tax defaulter responsible for someone's death? No. Does the poor application of funds lead to deaths? Yes. OK the country cant pay for everything it would like, but most agree that underfunding is not the reason for a poor health service - spending has spiralled, services have not improved to any great degree and its not for lack of money.
So, emotive and all as the alleged linkages are, I dont think they stack up.

I expect policitians, and indeed all of us, to be spotless in our law abiding, but I've held back on summary execution for the sinners.


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## ubiquitous (28 Nov 2008)

YOBR said:


> You state that tax evasion is the lessor of the two offences, would you still think the same way if a relative died while waiting for an operation on a public health waiting list?



This is a daft argument. The HSE's budget increased by billions in recent years and we still have waiting lists. The more money that has been thrown at it, the more has been wasted. 

To say that Joe Cowboy is responsible for someone's death on a trolley because he didn't pay a matter of thousands in tax is ludicrous.


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