# The perfect example of why this country is in a mess?



## RMCF (2 Oct 2011)

http://www.independent.ie/national-...50000-pension-but-calls-for-cuts-2893656.html*Sutherland  on €50,000 pension but calls for cuts* http://www.independent.ie

A man worth €80mill who calls for tougher austerity measures, yet he still claims €52k annually in state pension.

Double standards of the elite? 

Are they all looking after each other while the little man suffers and pays for everything?


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## callybags (2 Oct 2011)

More sensationalist crap. He isn't "claiming" anything. He is being paid his entitlements under the existing rules.

What does his net worth have to do with it?


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## Purple (2 Oct 2011)

callybags said:


> More sensationalist crap. He isn't "claiming" anything. He is being paid his entitlements under the existing rules.
> 
> What does his net worth have to do with it?



I agree. Should rich people not get paid the same as the rest of us for state jobs?


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## Knuttell (2 Oct 2011)

callybags said:


> More sensationalist crap. He isn't "claiming" anything. He is being paid his entitlements under the existing rules.
> 
> What does his net worth have to do with it?



If the Chairman of Goldman Sachs is so concerned about pushing further austerity measures on the middle classes here in Ireland then *yes* he should hand back this money,otherwise perhaps he should stop running his big mouth.

I am sick and tired of being preached to about austerity from insiders like this fella.


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## RMCF (2 Oct 2011)

callybags said:


> More sensationalist crap. He isn't "claiming" anything. He is being paid his entitlements under the existing rules.
> 
> *What does his net worth have to do with it?*



You serious?

If you were worth €80mill would you draw attention and flak on to yourself by claiming an extra €50k each year whilst you're prattling on about how there should be more cutbacks?


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## onq (2 Oct 2011)

Callybags is correct.
Its a disgrace to see well paid persons being able to draw a salary before either they retire or hit 65.

Its the existing rules that have to change, but "Suds" Sutherland beating the Austerity Drum is a hard act to stomach.
His company has been in the thick of the financial merde flying around and needs very close examination and monitoring IMO.

As far as I'm concerned multiple income streams from state sources based on pension payments should be outlawed as should all bonuses.
Its a widely touted mantra in management and HR circles that more pay doesn't produce more or better work - let's hoist them on their own petard.

No pensions before 65
No bonuses during a recession.
No bonus payments at all unless we see real results.


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## NOAH (2 Oct 2011)

my understanding is  ,   dont be sillly,  all the other buggers are scrrewing  us while  preaching about austerity so why cant I,  eg NOONAN i'll give it to charity etc
US
we can safely deduce that our elected reps will do everything to line their own pockets and continue to preach otherwise


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## RMCF (2 Oct 2011)

@onq

From reading Callybags post I would say they were defending Mr Sutherland.


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## callybags (2 Oct 2011)

I'm not defending anyone.

The OP seems to me to be begrudging. 

I repeat my question. What does his net worth have to do with it?


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## Leper (3 Oct 2011)

We are a quiet people.  The more they beat us down, the more we accept.


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## horusd (3 Oct 2011)

RMCF said:


> You serious?
> 
> If you were worth €80mill would you draw attention and flak on to yourself by claiming an extra €50k each year whilst you're prattling on about how there should be more cutbacks?



+1.  Not to mention the contribution of his own company to the mess we're in. Wasn't it them that advised the Greek gov't on its application to join the Euro? It's a bit rich to be lecturing others on cut-backs whilst taking money he doesn't need from the state. This smacks of the Bono school of morals, do as I say, but not as I do. Taxes are for little people.


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## RMCF (3 Oct 2011)

callybags said:


> I'm not defending anyone.
> 
> The OP seems to me to be begrudging.
> 
> I repeat my question. What does his net worth have to do with it?



If you are going to pontificate to others about how they should take harsher cuts, and you are claiming €50k per year of a state pension, then I think that your net worth is very important, especially if its €80million.

If you think thats not important then that your point of view. But I think you will find most people, if asked, would take my side of the argument.


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## Purple (3 Oct 2011)

If a retired civil servant wins the Lotto should their pension then be stopped?


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## orka (3 Oct 2011)

RMCF said:


> If you think thats not important then that your point of view. But I think you will find most people, if asked, would take my side of the argument.


I wouldn't.

Is he entitled to express his view? Yes

Is he entitled to his pension? Yes


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## Sunny (3 Oct 2011)

He is not saying anything different to what many other people are saying. The system that allows him to claim this pension is what is wrong. Thats not his fault. There are wealthy or well off people claiming childrens allowance every week while calling for the dole to be cut by a large amount. However, mention cutting child benefit and there would be uproar. Same goes with the State Pension.


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## Mpsox (3 Oct 2011)

One of the joys of living in a free democracy is that people have a constitutional right to express their views. If you don't like that, tough. You may not agree with what he is saying but you should never criticise his right to say it, there are enough people around the world that don't have the right of freedome of expression.

I've no arguement that much of the pension entitlements and arrangements are wrong, but there are plenty of people on private sector pensions who took redundancy packages and are able to draw their pension before they are 65


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## DB74 (3 Oct 2011)

It's easy to preach austerity when you won't be affected by it


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## Shawady (3 Oct 2011)

He might be entitled to the pension but wouldn't it be refreshing if he gave his views on austerity and then added "Although I am entitled to a pension from the state, I don't feel I should take it while the nation's finances are in such a bad way". It might be a drop in the ocean but at least it would be a gesture.


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## PaddyBloggit (3 Oct 2011)

DB74 said:


> It's easy to preach austerity when you won't be affected by it



Well put!


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## Purple (3 Oct 2011)

Shawady said:


> He might be entitled to the pension but wouldn't it be refreshing if he gave his views on austerity and then added "Although I am entitled to a pension from the state, I don't feel I should take it while the nation's finances are in such a bad way". It might be a drop in the ocean but at least it would be a gesture.



Imagine if all stated employees with a few bob behind them did the same thing. Maybe rich people should be barred from state jobs (unless they are willing to do them for free). The last thing this country needs it people who are vastly successful working for the state or offering advice.
Why not have a requirement that all members of state boards not have a pot to pee in?

The issue of under 65’s getting any state pension is a reasonable one to question but the net worth of the recipient is utterly irrelevant.


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## Purple (3 Oct 2011)

DB74 said:


> It's easy to preach austerity when you won't be affected by it



So only those affected by any topic should voice their opinion on that topic?


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## DB74 (3 Oct 2011)

Purple said:


> So only those affected by any topic should voice their opinion on that topic?



Of course not but it's a bit rich to be telling people to cut back on their milk while you're taking the cream yourself.


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## onq (3 Oct 2011)

Purple said:


> If a retired civil servant wins the Lotto should their pension then be stopped?



Depends on the conditions of the pension, but in general "yes".
All new state pensions should certainly have "win the lotto, stop the pension" clause.

The object of the pension is to allow you to continue to live in moderate comfort after your working life.
I see the day coming when people with means should not be taking a state pension as well - not with so many needy people.


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## onq (3 Oct 2011)

Purple said:


> So only those affected by any topic should voice their opinion on that topic?



I'm only wait for Sutherland to do a piece to camera that begins ;

_"We are all living way beyond our means..."_

Yes Peter.

You're living wayyy beyond OUR means...


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## TarfHead (4 Oct 2011)

Peter Sutherland is non-executive chairman of Goldman Sachs International. Goldman Sachs were memorably described, by Rolling Stone journalist Matt Taibi, as "_The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money. In fact, the history of the recent financial crisis, which doubles as a history of the rapid decline and fall of the suddenly swindled dry American empire, reads like a Who's Who of Goldman Sachs graduates_".

When Peter Sutherland speaks, I do not expect to hear objective truths, so I don't pay any attention to what he has to say.


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## T McGibney (4 Oct 2011)

Sutherland, as Chairman of BP, was ranting and raving on RTE last year about how we're all going to be washed away by global warming and loads of people on these pages thought he was a great fellow.


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## ccbkd (4 Oct 2011)

Peter Sutherland is a complete Tosser!


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## Purple (4 Oct 2011)

onq said:


> Depends on the conditions of the pension, but in general "yes".
> All new state pensions should certainly have "win the lotto, stop the pension" clause.
> 
> The object of the pension is to allow you to continue to live in moderate comfort after your working life.
> I see the day coming when people with means should not be taking a state pension as well - not with so many needy people.



If someone has paid for a pension (or it was part of their contract of employment) they should get it. 
If someone hasn't and doesn't need then they shouldn't.

I am against all universal welfare payments; they should all be limited to the people who need them.


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## Purple (4 Oct 2011)

ccbkd said:


> Peter Sutherland is a complete Tosser!



He may well be but he's still got to right to voice his opinion and collect a pension that he is entitled to.


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## Teatime (4 Oct 2011)

I met up with 4 friends at the weekend. I hadn't seen them in a while. 3 of them are living in Dublin and 1 in Cork and they all have good jobs and 3 of them have young children. We got chatting and I was very surprised to hear that 3 of them are actively looking into emigrating. The reason they gave was that they were sick of this country (for many reasons) and they did not want to bring up their kids here. Canada seemed the destination of choice. They reckoned the problems in this country would only get worse and that they were impossible to fix. From what they said I do expect them to leave and I think it is very sad.


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## Sunny (4 Oct 2011)

Teatime said:


> I met up with 4 friends at the weekend. I hadn't seen them in a while. 3 of them are living in Dublin and 1 in Cork and they all have good jobs and 3 of them have young children. We got chatting and I was very surprised to hear that 3 of them are actively looking into emigrating. The reason they gave was that they were sick of this country (for many reasons) and they did not want to bring up their kids here. Canada seemed the destination of choice. They reckoned the problems in this country would only get worse and that they were impossible to fix. From what they said I do expect them to leave and I think it is very sad.



That's not sad at all. That is people making a choice that they don't want to live Ireland any more. Good luck to them. I feel sorry for people who have no choice other than to emigrate even if they dont want to


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## Marion (4 Oct 2011)

> That's not sad at all.



I agree. Each to their own. If they don't wish to live here - grand!

I have some siblings abroad  - none of whom are there for any reason other than they wish to be abroad. I have never heard them express a desire to return to Ireland - other than for the odd holiday (Lots of other interesting places to visit in the world and thankfully I usually get invited )

I feel sorry for people who don't have a choice but to leave Ireland to secure employment.

Marion


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## shnaek (5 Oct 2011)

Sunny said:


> That's not sad at all.


It's not sad for them, but it is sad for Ireland, that 4 couples with jobs and children see no future here. So who are the people who do see a future here? People who live off the state? People who value quality of life less? People who blindly love the country no matter what it does?
Not dissing the place - I am still here myself, despite the Irish ruling class giving me an ulcer


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## Sunny (5 Oct 2011)

shnaek said:


> It's not sad for them, but it is sad for Ireland, that 4 couples with jobs and children see no future here. So who are the people who do see a future here? People who live off the state? People who value quality of life less? People who blindly love the country no matter what it does?
> Not dissing the place - I am still here myself, despite the Irish ruling class giving me an ulcer



Why is it sad for Ireland if people choose to live somewhere else? Good luck to them. I know people moving to Ireland but I don't think it is great news for the Country that they have decided to move here. People choosing to leave doesn't mean Ireland is doomed just like people moving here doesn't mean Ireland is some sort of Utopia.


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## shnaek (5 Oct 2011)

Sunny said:


> Why is it sad for Ireland if people choose to live somewhere else?


Well, it'd certainly be far from sad if a good deal of the ruling class decided to up and leave. 
There is value in looking at who is leaving and why. It helps us look at our own country and ask the right questions about who we are and where we are going.


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## Sunny (5 Oct 2011)

shnaek said:


> Well, it'd certainly be far from sad if a good deal of the ruling class decided to up and leave.
> There is value in looking at who is leaving and why. It helps us look at our own country and ask the right questions about who we are and where we are going.



Who is this ruling class that you are talking about?


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## shnaek (5 Oct 2011)

Sunny said:


> Who is this ruling class that you are talking about?


They are many. Basically, the insiders of which McWilliams speaks. The people who were at the wheels when our State was brought to it's knees. Many politicians are gone, but what of the people in the department of finance, the people in the regulators office, the remaining people at the top of the banks, property developers with property in Nama who are still collecting cheques. 
Add to this the many government quangos, the management of the HSE, the management in the department of health.
Then move to councils - that cull has begun, but it needs to be taken further. 
We need a total re-organisation of how this state is run, and we need it yesterday. 
And not just in the name of efficiency, but in the name of competance.
Anyone in a position of influence who told us we'd have a soft landing should be replaced with those who didn't preach this mantra. We couldn't do any worse, so this change would be neutral at worst, and positive at best. 
We need to look at the countries that have best weathered the storm, and borrow from them what we can.
We need our best people here, and our worst people out.


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## bullbars (5 Oct 2011)

Marion said:


> I have some siblings abroad - none of whom are there for any reason other than they wish to be abroad.


 
I agree; to some people the grass is always greener or maybe they travelled somewhere, liked the lifestyle / weather / work oppurtunities etc. I have friends who left to do a year travelling but settled along the way and havent left.



Marion said:


> I feel sorry for people who don't have a choice but to leave Ireland to secure employment.


 
Teatime states that those considering leaving have good jobs etc. so they aren't being forced. I left over two years ago to find work, not happy about it then, not happy now but what else can I do. Its when I read headlines like the following, rather than the OP's example, that I see why Ireland is in a mess.

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/kenny-defends-pay-cap-breach-by-his-department-523109.html

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/norris-trinity-told-me-to-take-disability-payments-523199.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-...k-for-staff-since-he-left-office-2896234.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-...no-cronyism-in-my-business-deals-2895902.html


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## AlastairSC (5 Oct 2011)

Purple said:


> The last thing this country needs it people who are vastly successful working for the state or offering advice.



Or perhaps that's just what it does need! The US, for example, has a long tradition of wealthy and/or successful individuals being asked to lend their brains to the state for a few years. Any salary they get would be paltry in comparison to their other earnings/wealth. What the state gets is proven ability harnessed to the public good. Wealthy individuals, especially self-made ones, obviously have a lot of drive/flair. Wouldn't it be a civic good for Ireland if they were to be asked to perform public work unpaid or for minimum pay, and given a relatively free hand to innovate?


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## Purple (5 Oct 2011)

AlastairSC said:


> Or perhaps that's just what it does need! The US, for example, has a long tradition of wealthy and/or successful individuals being asked to lend their brains to the state for a few years. Any salary they get would be paltry in comparison to their other earnings/wealth. What the state gets is proven ability harnessed to the public good. Wealthy individuals, especially self-made ones, obviously have a lot of drive/flair. Wouldn't it be a civic good for Ireland if they were to be asked to perform public work unpaid or for minimum pay, and given a relatively free hand to innovate?



I agree. I was being sarcastic in the post you quoted.


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## Teatime (6 Oct 2011)

shnaek said:


> It's not sad for them, but it is sad for Ireland, that 4 couples with jobs and children see no future here. So who are the people who do see a future here? People who live off the state? People who value quality of life less? People who blindly love the country no matter what it does?
> Not dissing the place - I am still here myself, despite the Irish ruling class giving me an ulcer



Yes what I thought was sad was that people that financially do not have to leave Ireland felt compelled to. I believe they love their country as much as anyone but for various reasons (Health service, Education system, Crime, Politicians, Me-Féiners etc) felt their kids would be better off elsewhere. One of them is a social worker but said the 'system' was a shambles and was getting worse day by day. I don't live there anymore but 2 of them felt Dublin was becoming a complete cesspit.


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## RMCF (8 Oct 2011)

My irritation with 'the system' got worse in the last few days when I heard about how Senator Norris was too ill to work and was receiving sick pay for 16 yrs. 

But when I heard this discussed on various radio shows, a word kept cropping up which some have used in this thread, and that is *entitlement*.

So Senator Norris was *entitled *to this sick pay. And this multi-millionaire who started this thread is *entitled *to his state pension.

Shame that it seems only to be certain people in this world that entitled to things. So many ordinary members of the public seem to be entitled to next to nothing, and indeed they seem to have too much already and the powers that be feel they should be *entitled to less* money/services/benefits/help .......


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## PaddyBloggit (8 Oct 2011)

Good post RMCF ... couldn't agree more.


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## Guest105 (9 Oct 2011)

RMCF said:


> My irritation with 'the system' got worse in the last few days when I heard about how Senator Norris was too ill to work and was receiving sick pay for 16 yrs.
> 
> But when I heard this discussed on various radio shows, a word kept cropping up which some have used in this thread, and that is *entitlement*.
> 
> ...


 
Couldn't agree more with you.  How the heck is he fit to act as president if he is on sickness benefit


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