# Ripped Off By Solicitor



## Starbright (11 Dec 2007)

I have just closed on the purchase of my first property, a one bedroom apartment in Dublin. I bought the property off the plans in March 2005 and when doing so I signed up for a solicitor who was recommended to me.

At the time, the solicitor quoted me an all-in price of approximately €1400, telling me that they had a policy of giving first time buyers a break on the price to retain their custom down the line.

Minutes after closing yesterday I got a call from my solicitors office stating that I owed them €2800 in fees including searches, registry fees and outlays. I claimed that was not what I was quoted as a fee originally and the solicitor (a different individual to the one I was dealing with in March 2005) asked to see documentary proof of the lower rate I was originally quoted.

I received this lower rate quote in an email from them but I can't find it in my inbox. I have contacted my company's IT section to see if it is retrievable. 

Do I have a leg to stand on if I can't recover this email? I'm sure the solicitor's office have a copy of the fee basis they sent me in March 2005 but they may well conveniently "misplace" it to squeeze the higher fee out of me.

Any advice very welcome!


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## tara83 (11 Dec 2007)

Are you sure that the all in one price wasn't just for the solicitors fee and not the extras such as land registery fees.  These come to about €800 I think depending on the porperty os €1400 would seem very cheap for everything


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## Dave Vanian (11 Dec 2007)

Tell your solicitor that before you settle the fee, you would like a copy of the original [broken link removed] letter or e-mail, which they are obliged to provide to you at the outset.


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## And74 (11 Dec 2007)

Does your development have a neighbours.ie website you could pose this question to your new neighbours? No doubt some of them may have been offered the same legal package as yourself and they may be able to help you out..

I bought a one bed off plan last year and was offered a legal package of €1500.00 on the open day. I ended up going with my friend who charged me €1750.00, so was not very happy about that!

You should also ask for a breakdown of the charges, as they are very steep!


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## deedee80 (11 Dec 2007)

Hi starbright, I feel that you are definitely being overpriced.  I bought a 2 bed apartment in early 06 and closed in the September of that year - fees were in the region of 1500 and I rang and got quotes from a few places and this figure seems to be around the norm.  Also have friends who bought apartments recently and paid pretty much the same.  Ask them to give you a complete breakdown of the 2800 fee so as to determine where the hike in price is coming from?


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## Stifster (11 Dec 2007)

Starbright said:


> I have just closed on the purchase of my first property, a one bedroom apartment in Dublin. I bought the property off the plans in March 2005 and when doing so I signed up for a solicitor who was recommended to me.
> 
> At the time, the solicitor quoted me an all-in price of approximately €1400, telling me that they had a policy of giving first time buyers a break on the price to retain their custom down the line.
> 
> ...


 
Tell them that you will pay €1400 plus the Outlay. I can't see that €1400 would have ever been the total bill as that would be uneconomic. It is an issue that has been raised a number of times in the last few years where conveyancing is concerned as the outlays can be steep enough and they are often not spelt out to clients at the beginning.

The fact that they didn't give youa s68 letter does not preclude them from charging a fee on a _quantum meruit_ basis but any good firm would have given you one.

Has the original solicitor left the practice?


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## swordshead (11 Dec 2007)

You're definitely being ripped off. I recently paid my solicitor for the work needed to close on a 2 bed apt and the bill came to €1510 and im a first time buyer. He quoted me a grand at the start, but thats without VAT and a few other little things had to be added on at the end. I thought it was a reasonable price for what he did as hes based in dublin 4 so wouldve expected him to be at the higher end of the market price wise!


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## ButtermilkJa (11 Dec 2007)

When I closed on my 2 bed apt I paid my solicitor €2k all-in, taxes and outlays. He was based in Dublin 2 (not sure if that really matters?), but anyway I reckon €2,800 is a little high. It could be that due to the length of completion on your property (3 years!) and the current downturn they are trying to hit you with current prices?

Either way, stick to your guns. If you were quoted €1,400 all-in, then pay €1,400.


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## John Rambo (11 Dec 2007)

ButtermilkJa said:


> When I closed on my 2 bed apt I paid my solicitor €2k all-in, taxes and outlays. He was based in Dublin 2 (not sure if that really matters?), but anyway I reckon €2,800 is a little high. It could be that due to the length of completion on your property (3 years!) and the current downturn they are trying to hit you with current prices?
> 
> Either way, stick to your guns. If you were quoted €1,400 all-in, then pay €1,400.


 
My guess is that the OP is mistaken and was quoted €1400+VAT+outlay. In my experience solicitors quote prices in this format.As for the location of the solicitor being relevant, the phrase "Dublin 2 solicitors" and "Dublin 2 prices" tends to be used to describe the big firms.My own attitude is to use smaller and cheaper solicitors for "simple" stuff and use a larger and more expensive firm for more significant matters.You do get what you pay for...


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## ButtermilkJa (11 Dec 2007)

I agree, the location of the solicitor/firm is most likely irrelevant. In terms of the price quoted however, I can only go on what the OP states, in that the price quoted was all-in, and in which case my advice would be the same. 

As for the price being a little on the low side, I seem to remember back in the hayday of 2005 when apartments were selling themselves, solicitors were advertising all-in prices as low as €999 so if this price was quoted in 2005 it would seem reasonable to me.


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## ubiquitous (11 Dec 2007)

ButtermilkJa said:


> I seem to remember back in the hayday of 2005 when apartments were selling themselves, solicitors were advertising all-in prices as low as €999 so if this price was quoted in 2005 it would seem reasonable to me.



That is €999 *excluding* VAT + outlays

Do a search for homebuyhomesell on AAM and you'll find plenty of references to these.

eg http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=9440&highlight=homebuyhomesell


> try www.homebuyhomesell.ie they cost 999 plus vat and outlay.


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## bacchus (11 Dec 2007)

ButtermilkJa said:


> when apartments were selling themselves, solicitors were advertising all-in prices as low as €999 so if this price was quoted in 2005 it would seem reasonable to me.


 
yes, indeed. was it not REA if buyer was takig mortgage throught them? There used to be somebody from this company who was frequently posting on AAM (always good contributions BTW) , and always signing www.rea.ie (looked like advertising to me but was accepted by moderators, so it  was not advertising i guess ).


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## ubiquitous (11 Dec 2007)

REA used to offer a legal fee of €499 plus VAT as part of their mortgage package. Maybe they still do. I understand that the €499 did not represent the actual solicitor's fee but that the fee was subsidised to some extent by the commission that REA received from the mortgage provider. Some of REA's competitors (notably www.ferga.com) offer commission refunds to clients in lieu of discounts on legal fees.


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## angela59 (11 Dec 2007)

hi there,

I used to work in a legal office as a law clerk - I'd say the all in fee your solicitor was referring to was his base fee of E1400 including vat.  The addition fees could be stamp duy for the deeds depending on the price of your property, land registry fees and lastely search fees and then there could be outlay.  But if you are still not happy ask for an invoice which breaks down the costs - this shouldn't be a problem to get.  I've learned one thing always over budget when purchasing a property rather than under budget - most solicitors charge about .75% to 1% of the purchase price for their fees and add on all the outlay.


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## mercman (11 Dec 2007)

The Bottom line for everybody -- get all Quotes and Prices in writing before you commence business. {People believe that as its a solicitor they couldn't be ripped off -Wake up and smell the coffee


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Dec 2007)

Buttermilk said:



> I seem to remember back in the hayday of 2005 when apartments were selling themselves, solicitors were advertising all-in prices as low as €999



They may well have been selling themselves, but they were not conveyancing themselves. 

Brendan


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## Stifster (11 Dec 2007)

Outlay may well be around €800-€1,000, so that is €1,800-€2,000 including VAT. That is a fee to the solicitor of something like €1,400-€1,600. Hardly a rip-off for ensuring that a property worth 100 or 200 times that is properly registered in your name.

The flippant use of rip-off really annoys me (in relation to all services/goods), you weren't cheated, you weren't deceived. It was probably not explained clearly.

And you know well who made the real profit on that transaction!


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## mercman (11 Dec 2007)

That's a bit coarse. According to the original post he said that he was quoted €1400.00 and charged a far higher amount without an explanation. Surely if, as in most cases a detailed bill was forthcoming, an analysis could be made and then the matter could be determined. But at this moment in time it seems somewhat out of order. Personally on first hand I have seen Solicitors trying to rip off clients on many numerous occasions. So it does happen and will continue to do so. It really is very simple, a person's Solicitor is dealing with the most private of persons affairs. If they don't feel comfortable they should move to one they do feel comfortable with. If you pay peanuts you will get a monkey.


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## mercman (11 Dec 2007)

_"At the time, the solicitor quoted me an all-in price of approximately €1400, telling me that they had a policy of giving first time buyers a break on the price to retain their custom down the line."_​
How about you ask them for a detailed Invoice in order that we can have an orderly debate about the matter


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## Stifster (11 Dec 2007)

mercman said:


> That's a bit coarse. According to the original post he said that he was quoted €1400.00 and charged a far higher amount without an explanation. Surely if, as in most cases a detailed bill was forthcoming, an analysis could be made and then the matter could be determined. But at this moment in time it seems somewhat out of order. Personally on first hand I have seen Solicitors trying to rip off clients on many numerous occasions. So it does happen and will continue to do so. It really is very simple, a person's Solicitor is dealing with the most private of persons affairs. If they don't feel comfortable they should move to one they do feel comfortable with. If you pay peanuts you will get a monkey.



I'm not sure where i posted that no solicitor has ever ripped off a client... I just don't believe that this is a rip-off if you consider the definition rather than the "EddieHobbsian" use of it.

Neither did i say that the OP should just cave in either. There is a problem.


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## Maine (11 Dec 2007)

> Minutes after closing yesterday I got a call from my solicitors office stating that I owed them €2800 in fees including searches, registry fees and outlays.


 
It is fairly basic economics really. Sols have been used to huge profits from the property boom.

Less property transactions mean higher fees in the short term until sols get used to the idea of competition again then fees will drop sharply.

one thing to be careful of is "outlays" .....it has happened to me in the past that a sols ramped these up......I had though they were actual costs when in fact margins had been added in


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## FKH (12 Dec 2007)

It seems very suspect for the fees to double. Outlays for a FTB on a new apartment couldn't run to anything like €1,000. Regsitration fees would be less than €100, there's no stamp duty and search fees should be €100 at most. By law all solicitors have to send out a letter quoting their fees so ask for a copy of this. If they won't budge go to the Law Society


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## Vanilla (12 Dec 2007)

FKH said:


> It seems very suspect for the fees to double. Outlays for a FTB on a new apartment couldn't run to anything like €1,000. Regsitration fees would be less than €100, there's no stamp duty and search fees should be €100 at most. By law all solicitors have to send out a letter quoting their fees so ask for a copy of this. If they won't budge go to the Law Society


 
Many inaccuracies here.

First search fees begin at 100 but can be in the hundreds depending on the title.

Second registration fees would only be around 100 if the title were registry of deeds. However more than 90% of the land mass of ireland is land registry title so it is much more likely to be land registry title in which case the fees will be any where between 500 to 700 or possibly more.

Finally the law does not in fact require solicitors to send a s.68 letter setting out the fees- what it actually says is that they have to have discussed fees at the outset with the client and then in solicitors regulations with the law society we are required to have a note of that discussion/agreement on our file, whether that be in the form of an email, a memorandum or a letter.

I don't know what the initial agreement with this OP was. My feeling is that if they were quoted 1400 all in, this was incredibly cheap. A normal conveyance would consist of outlays alone of say 600 land registry fees, 100 searches, possibly 20/30 commissioner for oaths fees, so here the actual fee charged by the solicitor would dwindle to somewhere between five to six hundred euro ( plus VAT). It seems unlikely. However I would say that there appears to be a failing in communication from the solicitors office if the OP believed that 1400 all in was the fee and I would expect them to address that.


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## FKH (12 Dec 2007)

It's a new one bed apartment so the Land Regsitry fees would be €85 for a first registration (and maybe €25 for a certified copy folio).

Also most search companies charge a fixed fee these days. Easy thing to do there is ack to see the search companies invoice.


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## mercman (12 Dec 2007)

What is the point ? The OP was quoted a price simople as that. It is not up to Joe Public to help the Solicitor justify ripping him off. In any other business transaction, if a price is quoted, whether it be right or wrong, the firm can withdraw before the transaction proceeds. Its a bit rich to alter the terms and price after the work os done. There is no point in persons trying to defend the legal profession, and believe me some of my closent friends are solicitors and barristers. I extensively use the legal profession, but always get prices prior  to  handing the case over - and I use the biggest  law firms available. As I write  I hear that a  warrant has been  issued  to arrest Michael Lynn -- remind me - is he a Solicitor ??


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## John Rambo (12 Dec 2007)

If you read the posts most people are questioning whether that price was a full and final price or VAT and search etc EXCLUSIVE


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## ubiquitous (12 Dec 2007)

mercman said:


> As I write  I hear that a  warrant has been  issued  to arrest Michael Lynn -- remind me - is he a Solicitor ??



So...?

Should all doctors hang their heads in shame on account of the actions of Harold Shipman?


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## mercman (12 Dec 2007)

I quote the original Post:
*
At the time, the solicitor quoted me an all-in price of approximately €1400, telling me that they had a policy of giving first time buyers a break on the price to retain their custom down the line.*

They were quoted an all in price - if prior to completion he was advised that the costs were to increase fine. However after the job is done and then make a change, and a significant one at that is bad business. 

I don't cast all Doctors in the Shipman frame, but there and have been so many issues in relation to solicitors, their practices and issues they have drawn the spotlight onto themselves. And for years they have been self regulated. Very much a case of the Lunatics are running the Asylum.


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## John Rambo (12 Dec 2007)

And what I'm saying is that in my experience solicitors do not quote "all in prices". What they do quote is a figure plus VAT plus outlay which someone could easily mistake for a full and final figure.I think bandying around terms like rip-off is dangerous and certainly invoking the names solicitors who are in the dock does nobody any favours.


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## ubiquitous (12 Dec 2007)

John Rambo said:


> And what I'm saying is that in my experience solicitors do not quote "all in prices".



Indeed. Even the discount operators like Dermot Deane, HomeBuyHomeSell and REA's service operate on a "set fee plus VAT plus outlay" basis.


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## FKH (12 Dec 2007)

Most solicitors do quote for professional fee plus VAT plus outlays. The real issue is that the outlays for a new apartment seem to come to over €1,100 which seems a lot (I am a solicitor so do know how much outlays are). It is also possible that the OP was quoted an all in price as I know solicitors who do that and it is easy to budget for the outlays.


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## mercman (12 Dec 2007)

I am not dissagreeing with any counter discussiuon so to speak. However surely they should have advised the OP or sent an Invoice or something. It is like most professional services. The majority work extremley hard in a professional manner, but the minority really scupper it, to an extent that Public view hastily turns. Its not my fault I am just a simple member of Joe Public.


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## Seagull (12 Dec 2007)

John Rambo said:


> And what I'm saying is that in my experience solicitors do not quote "all in prices".


When we bought our house, we were quoted an all-in figure. There were three solicitors firms listed on the brochure provided by the EA. I phoned around for quotes (including firms not listed), and wound up going with the most conveniently placed of the three that was listed as they were cheapest. They were probably handling quite a few of the purchases for that estate, and so knew what the costs would be.


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## Card (12 Dec 2007)

sorry FKH can I just query something, you say you are solicitor but can i just ask about your calculations re the registration of an apartment above, you say 85 for first registration and 25 for copy folio, but surely depending on the purchase price there are additional land registry fees?


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## BK2 (12 Dec 2007)

The land registry fee for leasehold property (apartments) which are new build (it is called first registration) is €85 which includes the mortgage and counterpart. The Searches fees could be anything up to 200 euro depending on how many companies they had to search ( might be mangement company aswell?. When a Solicitor give a quote of 1,400 that usually means 1,400 + postage + vat + outlay which would include Search fees and Land Registry Fees . Which would add to about 2,100 

1,400 + 100 (postage) + VAT 315 + Search fees 200 + Land Reg fees 85 = 2,100 

what may have happened is that they confused the Land Registry fees for a house with is €560  instead of €85 which is a 500 difference. I would ask for a breakdown of the fee together with a copy of the feenote for the Searches fees to clear this all up. 

Solicitors rarely give an all -in fee because they have no idea what the search fee will be or what the vat rate will be when it is completed or even if the land reg fees will change so all in probably just meant their fee.


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## CCOVICH (12 Dec 2007)

I don't see what _Micheal Lynn_ has to do with this discussion-which relates to a billing disagreement, as opposed to the issues over which he is being questioned.

So let's just stick to the relevant facts as they stand before us please.


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## FKH (12 Dec 2007)

Thanks BK2, I would agree that the solicitor may have confused the registration costs.

I do know solicitors that will quote all-in for new apartments as you pretty much know exactly what the outlays will be.

All you can do is get a copy of teh full invoice breakdown and post your findings.


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## brera (12 Dec 2007)

FKH and BK2,

You've both caused me to register having been what I believe is referred to as a "lurker" on this forum for many years.

It's frightening that you two can come out with such inaccuracies which do nothing to help this discussion.

The assertion that Land Registry fees for a leasehold are 85 euro is utter tripe and that the Land Registry fees for a house are more than an apartment is similarly rubbish.

What has first registration and the 85 euro fee got to do with registering ownership of an apartment?  Would you care to enlighten us all with your extensive legal knowledge as to what first registration for 85 euro entails?

The Land Registry fees are readily accessible on their website.  As a previous poster mentioned, they relate to the value of the property. 

If the value of the apartment is over 385001, the land reg fee for the transfer is 625.  Add to that 125 to register the mortgage.  Add another 60 to open a new folio (if the apartment is new).  Add another 25 for copy folio file plan which the lender will likely require.  That adds up to 835 in Land Registry fees alone.  Searches could with the greatest of ease bring the total outlay to over 1000.  Suggesting otherwise does not help the OP in anyway and does nothing to help the general discussion.

I hope that the above is of assistance to the OP.  I do not agree that the outlay appears to be excessive.  I do however feel that communication from your solicitors may have been less than effective.  I would suggest that a reasoned written request to them for details of the charges might provide a detailed clartification.


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## roker (12 Dec 2007)

The soliicitor should have given you a wriiten estimate, according to the Law Society. If you are not happy, write to the law society or go to their website. They have quite a comprhensive complaints procedure


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## juke (13 Dec 2007)

brera

seems you havn't a clue. new apartments main title deed is a lease. This is registered in the land registry as first registration of a lease - €85.00. Any mortgage registed with it is free.

the main title deed for a new house is a transfer - and fees depend on the value.

fees on transfers of 2nd hand apartments and 2nd hand houses also depend on value


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## BK2 (13 Dec 2007)

I am offended to be honest with what was stated by brea claiming that what I have stated is utter rubbish. I am fully aware of the rates having registered many apartments. On top of this I myself owned an apartment and registered it. Believe me it is €85. As i stated in my first post, if it is NEW apartment from the plans then it is a first registration as you are carving the apartment from the original title. If you look on the website or indeed if you want to ring the Land Registry, be my guest, they will tell you that first registrations (new build apartment) are €85 all in. Houses or 2nd hand apartments are as per the value of the property etc as you stated. New build apartments are different, the orginal question stated that it was a new apartment from the plans. 

I would suggest brea that before you insult other postees that you ensure that you are 100% accurate in your statements before referring to accurate statements as utter rubbish.


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## Bronte (13 Dec 2007)

I've had many relations tell me they paid their solicitor huge fees, then having looked at the bill you discover they are including stamp duty/capital gains tax,  land registry fees, searches etc.  The problem is that ordinary people think when told the fee is 1400 that that is the end of the matter.  In my opinion they should be told in writing our fee is X (don't add on VAT and postage/stationary later as it only annoys people) but in addition you will have to pay Y for the land register and Z for searches etc.  Personally I think it should be a legal requirement that all clients get this in writing and that they sign it after writing 'I have read the above bill and agree to it'.


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## mf1 (13 Dec 2007)

Bronte said:


> I've had many relations tell me they paid their solicitor huge fees, then having looked at the bill you discover they are including stamp duty/capital gains tax,  land registry fees, searches etc.  The problem is that ordinary people think when told the fee is 1400 that that is the end of the matter.  In my opinion they should be told in writing our fee is X (don't add on VAT and postage/stationary later as it only annoys people) but in addition you will have to pay Y for the land register and Z for searches etc.  Personally I think it should be a legal requirement that all clients get this in writing and that they sign it after writing 'I have read the above bill and agree to it'.



As a war weary practising solicitor of many years, can I tell you that in my experience very few of my purchasing clients have the remotest interest in anything save (a) getting into the house and (b) whether to go for wooden floorboards.  

They will not even read their own letter of loan offer let alone my tedious explanation of the process involved in purchasing/mortgaging the property, their necessary input into organising their own end of things and finally the ultimate cost to them. Mostly they hear the price they want to hear even when it is in writing. And finally, while I would love  my clients to confirm to me in writing that they have read my letters, understand them and agree to what I'm saying and  my fees, its a bit unlikely as most of them are too busy choosing the colour scheme for their new house - which they regard as far more important than the tedious bit of getting involved in the legalities. 

Yes there are lots of crap solicitors and yes there are lots of great clients but the above would be my own view.

mf


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## Stifster (13 Dec 2007)

It might help if the OP said whether it was a new or second hand apartment.

Been there MF, a couple of years ago a client claimed they hadn't received my estimate of fees, which i sent out in advance and which curiously enough was the only letter that didn't actually get to them....


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## BK2 (13 Dec 2007)

"I have just closed on the purchase of my first property, a one bedroom apartment in Dublin. I bought the property off the plans in March 2005 and when doing so I signed up for a solicitor who was recommended to me"

OP stated was bought off the plans so new apartment.


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## Purple (13 Dec 2007)

Where's the OP?
Have they asked for a detailed invoice?
It sounds like they heard what they wanted to hear and basically screwed up.
Until they get back with more details that is...


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## mercman (13 Dec 2007)

Juke --- Superb Reply. Hate people who come on the attack in situations like this. We are all trying to help one another, not score points against each other.

To all who are siding with the legal profession and the OP. He was quoted an all in figure of €1400.00 This is were the problem. The OP didn't ask about Land Registry fees, mortgage registry fees or anything else. An all in fee is what it is, plus VAT. That is what the charge and the Invoice from the Solicitor should be. If a mistake has been made so what. It is not the fault of the OP. Let's hope he finds te original e-mail.


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## mf1 (13 Dec 2007)

"It is not the fault of the OP."

OP has not been back for a while. All you/any of us know is what OP originally posted which may or may not have been the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Given that it is seldom the case on this or any Board that the whole truth is presented by an OP ( as very often elicited by questioning the veracity of initial posts), you might consider listening  to the more balanced views being posted?

mf

ps - remind me not to feed the trolls.


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## Purple (13 Dec 2007)

The OP asked and was told what the fee would be, not what the full costs would be. The solicitor advised what the fee would be and then added costs plus VAT (as is standard practice). If the OP doesn't want to pay other costs, which are levied by the government and it’s agents, why should the solicitor carry the can?
Without the OP clarifying things further this thread is just speculation.


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## Stifster (13 Dec 2007)

mf1 said:


> ps - remind me not to feed the trolls.


 
A little post-it on your monitor should do the trick.


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## Bronte (14 Dec 2007)

"As a war weary practising solicitor of many years, can I tell you that in my experience very few of my purchasing clients have the remotest interest in anything save (a) getting into the house and (b) whether to go for wooden floorboards."

Very funny post MF1, but on a serious note it's a sorry state of affairs when people are making such a serious purchase that they are unconcerned about the most basic aspects of the costs of purchase.   It seems people have more money then sense if they have enough to buy floorboards and pick colourschemes but not enough time to add up all the costs.  I still think we would have a lot less posts on here about the 'amazingly high bill charged by my solicitor' when confronted with it signed by themselves.


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## ubiquitous (14 Dec 2007)

Bronte said:


> I still think we would have a lot less posts on here about the 'amazingly high bill charged by my solicitor' when confronted with it signed by themselves.



Sorry, I don't understand... How could anyone here confront another poster with a document signed by themselves?


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## mf1 (14 Dec 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Sorry, I don't understand... How could anyone here confront another poster with a document signed by themselves?



Bronte's statement makes sense in the overall stream of consciousness of the thread! If solicitors put the (approx) fee plus VAT plus outlays in writing at the start of the transaction and clients signed an acknowledgment of receipt of the draft bill.........

mf


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