# Geothermal heating



## pat_os (23 Nov 2006)

I've done a lot of research and decided to go with a GSHP with the horizontal collector and underfloor heating in a new build. In an attempt to dispell my last doubts can anyone who has this installed just let me know if you're happy or not. Or if there's anything extra you think you should have put in at the time eg buffer tank, night saver meter, etc  
Thanks


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## qwerty? (23 Nov 2006)

Extremely happy with it. Make sure you put in night saver and a towel rad or two to warm/dry towels.


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## dakar (23 Nov 2006)

Qwerty, 

Do you mean electric towel heaters? I assume that you cant run radiator type towel heaters at the temperature that UFH requires. 

I will soon be in a similar situation i.e. newbuild timber frame/GSHP/UFH.
Also what make is your heat pump?

Thank you.


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## qwerty? (23 Nov 2006)

dakar said:


> Qwerty,
> 
> Do you mean electric towel heaters? I assume that you cant run radiator type towel heaters at the temperature that UFH requires.


 
We have towel rads running off the HWC. A bit unorthidox i suppose, but it worths. We have them on a timer, so put them on for half an hour or so when bathing the kids etc to warm the towel. We have a NIBE GSHP.


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## yop (24 Nov 2006)

Good idea Qwerty, I got the "Oh I said we wanted towel rails" when herself discovered we did not have one, that is an idea to plumb off the hot feed!, more work for me


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## dakar (24 Nov 2006)

Thanks for that qwerty,

I'm waiting on a quote from a local installer who deals with NIBE, I've been in his house was very impressed with his set up. He reckons all his heating and hot water for a 4000sqft costs approx €800 a year. Even allowing for a little exaggeration on his part, this sounds very good, can you give me an idea of how much yours costs to run?


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## qwerty? (24 Nov 2006)

dakar said:


> Thanks for that qwerty,
> 
> I'm waiting on a quote from a local installer who deals with NIBE, I've been in his house was very impressed with his set up. He reckons all his heating and hot water for a 4000sqft costs approx €800 a year. Even allowing for a little exaggeration on his part, this sounds very good, can you give me an idea of how much yours costs to run?


 
Estimating how much the rest of Nov, Dec and Jan will cost, the total cost for 1 year is €840. I installed a meter on the GSHP, and take readings each day, so I'm not estimating these costs.
Heres the break down of average daily costings... (not including nightsaver)
January 5.00
February 4.53
March 4.02
April 4.10
May 2.67
June 1.23
July 1.01
August 1.42
September 1.53
October 2.42
November 4.00
December 5.00


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## dakar (24 Nov 2006)

Qwerty,

Thanks a million, its brilliant to get some input from somebody actually using UFH. Can I ask if you have individual room thermostats or does the machine control the flow or the circulating temperature based on the return temperature from the loops. Also I assume the machine runs hot water priority,do you find that the water is hot enough, and enough of it for showers etc?

Sorry if I'm annoying your head but I'm only going to get favourable answers from a guy trying to sell me a system and I appreciate your responses. 

One last thing, you said that the running costs didnt include nightsaver rates, does this mean your HP is running on nightsaver and that your actual costs are lower than those quoted?


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## qwerty? (24 Nov 2006)

dakar said:


> Qwerty,
> 
> Thanks a million, its brilliant to get some input from somebody actually using UFH. Can I ask if you have individual room thermostats or does the machine control the flow or the circulating temperature based on the return temperature from the loops. Also I assume the machine runs hot water priority,do you find that the water is hot enough, and enough of it for showers etc?
> 
> ...


 
We have individual room stats. Would have liked digital ones but due to a wiring spec cockup on the UFH companys part, we had to use analogue. (Just make sure you run he correct cable, we had twin brown and earth) Bathroom, hall and landing are open zones, with no stats.

Water is more than hot enough for showers baths etc. You will still have to add a little cold water to it to cool it down to a bit. (I'd recommend a pumped HW/CW system, becasue as you are only mainly using the hot to fill a bath, it would take twice as long to fill than a normal HW system using HW and CW on full.)

We let the system run itself, it works during the day and night as needed. The 840 yearly cost includes the nightsaver deduction, the monthly costs don't, subtract between 1/3 and 1/4 off then to get a rough daily cost.


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## ktwo (24 Nov 2006)

qwerty, I am also considering the same system and your stats sound great. Did you go over the recommended insulation on your house? Also if you don't mind what size is your house. 

Thanks very much 
ktwo.


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## qwerty? (24 Nov 2006)

ktwo said:


> qwerty, I am also considering the same system and your stats sound great. Did you go over the recommended insulation on your house? Also if you don't mind what size is your house.
> 
> Thanks very much
> ktwo.


 
Main place I went overboard with insulation was in the ground floor. 100mm of xtratherm insulation. 

The house is 3500 sq foot.


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## JoeHooker (27 Nov 2006)

I'm soon to start constructing my house and i'm currently pricing up the total construction. I'm hell bent on installing Geo-thermal and underfloor heating, i've recieved quotes from two companies Eurotech and Geothermal-Solar. The first seems to be a good system but maybe a bit pricy the second is some what cheaper but how do you compare one with the other. I want to do the job right but don't want to pay extorsinate prices for it. 
I don't want a two bit system designed that will cost me money on running because it isn't able to provide heat economically. 

Has anybody installed the above systems and are you happy with them, or maybe another system.


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## dakar (27 Nov 2006)

Hi Joe

I'm at a similar point of the process, i.e. trying to get as many quotes for stuff as I can and trying to sift out fact from well intention fiction. I'm interested to know roughly what quotes you got. I've only gotten one detailed quote back yet. 

I'm building a 2800sqft timber frame dormer and for fully supplied, fitted and commissioned ground source heat pump, underfloor heating and a hot water system, I've been quoted €19000 + VAT for a horizontal collector or €23000+VAT for a borehole (not convinced about this option).

How does this compare to your quotes.


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## JoeHooker (27 Nov 2006)

Dakar,

I've recieved two quotes so far and another yet to be recieved, there is a large difference in both. Eurotech quoted me in excess of €33,000 exclusive of VAT, Civil's & Wiring by electrician, it seems great control from each room it senses the temperature of the room and calculates how long it will take to heat the room to the desired temperature.It can also be turned on and off via text message.

The other quotation from Geothermal-Solar in excess of €18,000 seems to be similar to previous, with the text message facility and temperature calculation, I think!.

These both include Under floor heating, designed for 208m2 floor area, A one and a half storey, Hollow core flooring to 1st floor. 

Hope this helps


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## kildarebuild (28 Nov 2006)

Hi 

Im the same, hellbent on trying to get the best geothermal system possible. Got one of ECO HEAT recommended to me by my architect. House size is 3300 dormer sq feet. Heat Pump 18kw is €7300. Underfloor piping, all thermostats, bits and pieces, including a pressurised system for the showers. All costed 17000 euro not including VAT. This does not include installation of the underfloor piping. 


Still doing research on it. Also got one company yesterday for all installation and supply. Costed 23000 euro. Serious amount of money invloved. So still looking around. 

Thinking of checking out foreign heatpumps with the possibility of buying them and getting the grant at the same time. Anybody any experience of this?


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## thefisherman (28 Nov 2006)

hi,am also putting in gshp in my new-build and am approved for grant.
will probably buy abroad as it is alot cheaper and will still get grant,(checked with sei).

irish suppliers are just charging above the odds for something that with a few internet clicks can be bought and shipped home and still save a few thousand euros .
i'm looking at the moment at a thermia heatpump ,10kw. from poland for under 6000 euro including shipping,
i installed the underfloor heating myself-all it is ,after all ,is laying piping in loops-no degree necessary.
the collector pipe in the garden is basically a jcb digging a narrow trench ,you lay the pipe, backfill, clap hands for job well done.
you still will need a plumber to connect the pipes to heatpump etc, 
shopping around and doing your homework can save you alot of money,
oh-and a healty dose of common sense.


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## kildarebuild (28 Nov 2006)

thefisherman said:


> hi,am also putting in gshp in my new-build and am approved for grant.
> will probably buy abroad as it is alot cheaper and will still get grant,(checked with sei).
> 
> irish suppliers are just charging above the odds for something that with a few internet clicks can be bought and shipped home and still save a few thousand euros .
> ...



Absolutely agree with you, but wife is afraid i stick a hole in the piping or summat, as if that is possible..... basically just lay it down on the frame and bingo job done..... yes i would agree a plumber is required to hook up all the pipes and this can be left to when the plumber comes in to install the bathrooms. I reckon i save around 4000 euro by installing the underfloor and doing the collector area myself with a neighbours JCB. Whoever you buy the pipes off gives you a plan of where the pipes go etc. Cant make a mistake. Let me know how you get on with your heat pump, looking into buying one abroad as well.


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## F.D (28 Nov 2006)

Just a warning on installing the UFH Pipework I was told for GSHP the Loop have to be very close together to make it work more efficiently
I have UFH working on oil at the moment and was looking at changing to GSHP or a Wood Boiler and was told by one company that my loops may be too far apart for GSHP to work efficiently, and the wood boiler may be a better option
I Did tell the the Plumber my plans at the time but it looks like he did not listen!
Any body with similar experiance to me your comments would be welcome


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## JoeHooker (28 Nov 2006)

The Fisherman,

How did you calculate the power output that you would require for the heating of your home. The square meterage of your collector. I'd love to do a little project like that and will carry out as much of the work on my house as my competence lets me, being a Civil Engineer I'll be able to carry out alot of the engineering requirements but i'd still be slightly weary of doing something wrong, when it comes to plumbing and electrical work. Not installing properly or under designing the system could result in higher electricty costs & shorter maintenance periods.

On a different note i'm going to try to pay for my Geothermal/Underfloor heating with cash from savings, I think it's pointless tying the price of heating and water into the already climbing interest levels of a mortgage. It's cancelling out any savings that come from the Geothermal.

I've also inquired as to wheter the Geothermal can be incorporated in use with Solar panels, maybe using the energy from the panels to power the heat pump, however i've got not replies, anybody got any ideas?


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## thefisherman (29 Nov 2006)

send your house plans to as many companies as you can,they wont be long working out the size you need.they will tell you the size of collector,the size of pipes for your ufh etc,these are things you can put in youself with the advice of your own plumber(you willstill need one)


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## kildarebuild (29 Nov 2006)

Sorry just wondering for UFH where did you get your piping from? Their is QualPEX in Cork but anyone else? 

Thanks


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## dakar (29 Nov 2006)

One of the guys I'm getting a quote from uses Unipipe, and I've gotten a brochure from Heatmasters for Rehau, both seem fairly reputable and both have websites. Don't take my word for it though, I'd ask the companies giving you quotes what they use and then see if you can source it yourself. I'm not brave enough to go down the DIY route myself!

I know that for about €200 odd, unipipe will do a complete computerised floor layout for you


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## smitch (29 Nov 2006)

thefisherman said:


> hi,am also putting in gshp in my new-build and am approved for grant.
> will probably buy abroad as it is alot cheaper and will still get grant,(checked with sei).
> 
> irish suppliers are just charging above the odds for something that with a few internet clicks can be bought and shipped home and still save a few thousand euros .
> ...


 
I love it!!  Have been looking at doing the same myself as I got a load of quotes and the heat pump _alone_ is coming in at over €8.5k. Did the SEI advise on the conditions of the grant?  I was under the impression the pump had to be on their registered list _and _installed by a registered installer. All this info needs to go on the grant form before you get the grant Letter of Offer from them - or so I thought?


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## thefisherman (30 Nov 2006)

yes the pump must be on the approved list but it does not matter where in the eu you buy it in order to get the grant as i checked.i did not buy pump yet as i am not at that stage  of building(next month hopefully) but intend to buy a thermia diplomat with a output of 10 kw as recommended by the  agent selling it in ireland,then went on the thermia home page and they will give a list of agents selling their pump anywhere from ireland to poland,then i made a lot of phone calls and can get this pump in poland for 5500 including polish vat of 22 per cent,of course i will have to get it to ireland and one transport company said it might cost 500 to bring it home but that sounds a bit pricy to me.i made these phone calls a few months ago so prices may haved changed but i will be buying one before end of jan. so will start phoning soon. and yes the installer must be approved and on the list so i phoned one in a nearby town,told him i was thinking of putting in a hp and could i use his name as installer and no problem,any way if i remember the form i got back after approval you can change the brand of pump and also the installer,the main thing is to apply for grant and take it from there


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## mickeyg (30 Nov 2006)

How is the amount of the SEI grant calculated - is it a fixed amount or a % of the heat pump cost??


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## yop (30 Nov 2006)

JoeHooker said:


> The Fisherman,
> 
> How did you calculate the power output that you would require for the heating of your home. The square meterage of your collector. I'd love to do a little project like that and will carry out as much of the work on my house as my competence lets me, being a Civil Engineer I'll be able to carry out alot of the engineering requirements but i'd still be slightly weary of doing something wrong, when it comes to plumbing and electrical work. Not installing properly or under designing the system could result in higher electricty costs & shorter maintenance periods.
> 
> ...



Joe, I was told that solar panels cannot power the HP as it needs more power than the solar can produce.

Good man Fisherman, fair play to you on that one. Hope the install works out.

It is recommended to have as tight a loop on the UFH as possible, it brings down the running temp of the UFH, our are about 25mm spacings and we are running @28 deg C, so that means less heat needed to warm the house, = less electricity.


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## kildarebuild (30 Nov 2006)

Hi Yop,

Excuse my ignorance, but a tight loop, do you mean the shorter the pipe goes to the room and back to the heat pump the better?? Say for instance i have 6 zones downstairs, so straight to the room and back. Dont do 2/3 rooms with a loop (too long therefore longer to heat and more electricity to keep the heat level up?)


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## smitch (30 Nov 2006)

Thanks for that Fisherman, fair play to you. I see Dimplex and Hautec trade here also. Can you give me the link you used for the crowd in Poland if you dont mind?

Mickeyg - the grant depends on your collector and ranges from €4k. See this SEI link [broken link removed]


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## thefisherman (30 Nov 2006)

it was nordica.com.pl; you will find all this if you go on www .thermia.com  and they are others like nibe  who have distributors  in poland,check  all the approved pumps websites and start phoning.


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## smitch (30 Nov 2006)

nice one, cheers for that!


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## yop (1 Dec 2006)

Kildarebuild, sorry I should have explain, the gap in the middle between the 2 loops of piping, the gap in the U so to speak.
Generally the loop gaps are about 40/50mm. This mean less heat coverage so a higher temperature to run the water in the pipes to get you 20/21 degree room temp.
We were advised to get the gap down to 25mm spacing to reduce the running temperature, which is now 28deg average.
This is harder to install as kinks in the pipe are a possibility.


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## JoeHooker (1 Dec 2006)

Yop,

I think your wrong there, 40 to 50 mm centres for the looping of the pipes seems a bit tight, and you said your going to try and get it to 25mm. That cant be, i've recently been quoted for underfloor heating and calculating sq area versus length of piping required, the clear spacing between pipes comes to be 150mm, id say you could tighten that to 100mm. But 40 to 50 seems a bit much you'd have to install atleast 400m of piping in a normal sized living room at that spacing.

Does anyone know what size heat pump you woul require to heat and hot water for a 2300 sq ft one and a half storey. Two quotes different size pump, one 15kW the other 9kW?


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## alert (1 Dec 2006)

Hi guys,

   we have a 10KW GSHP used in conjunction with UFH for a 2800 sqft dormer. Since we were not given any operating manuals we've had to stumble along this past year trying to see what works, since October until this week we were only running it on the night rate and for a few hours in the afternoon, I am trying with it on 24/7 at the momen. To be honest with you the heat iproduced in the house is rather poor with most rooms not heating up to any noticable degree, those closest to the manifolds seem to be "ok" but those further afield are freezing. I was wondering if anyone might tell me what we're doing wrong? For example, should the heat pump be on ALL the time? Is there a particular optimum pressure that the system operates at? It seems to me, to be honest with you, that the system only heats up when the ground loop collector is activated, ie the lights blink and the manifolds heat up, .. when the ground loop is off, the pump is pumping very lukewarm, at best, water around. 

Any advice welcome,

ALERT.


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## kildarebuild (1 Dec 2006)

Based on my research so far on geothermal, it is meant to be on the whole time, not only this saves on ESB bills, (starting it up turning it off requires the bulk of electricity - please correct me if i am wrong) Not surprised that the rooms closest to the manifold are the warmest while further rooms are colder. Maybe this is because the heat in the water is required to be at a higher temp to warm up these rooms. The heat pump might not be on long enough to achieve this temperature?

Let me know what heat pump you are using and where you got your underfloor piping. Also what is the space of your u loop in the piping? 

Thanks


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## yop (1 Dec 2006)

JoeHooker said:


> Yop,
> 
> I think your wrong there, 40 to 50 mm centres for the looping of the pipes seems a bit tight, and you said your going to try and get it to 25mm. That cant be, i've recently been quoted for underfloor heating and calculating sq area versus length of piping required, the clear spacing between pipes comes to be 150mm, id say you could tighten that to 100mm. But 40 to 50 seems a bit much you'd have to install atleast 400m of piping in a normal sized living room at that spacing.
> 
> Does anyone know what size heat pump you woul require to heat and hot water for a 2300 sq ft one and a half storey. Two quotes different size pump, one 15kW the other 9kW?



Joe, I have it installed, I did it myself and they're 25mm loops, it is very tight to get them light that but as I said it lowers the running temp of the circulating water while keeping the rooms at the correct temp.


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## kfpg (1 Dec 2006)

alert said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> those closest to the manifolds seem to be "ok" but those further afield are freezing. I was wondering if anyone might tell me what we're doing wrong?
> ALERT.


 
It might be that your manifold is not "balanced". Each loop on the flow of the manifold will have a dial of some description that opens and closes, which restricts the flow to a more or lesser degree.

There is a key post on this site where Heinbloed explains in detail how you balance a manifold, put simply though the longest loop of coil should have its restrictor open the most all the way down to the shortest loop being closed the most. The goal is to get the same temperature on the return side of each loop. (read the key post!!)


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## alert (1 Dec 2006)

Hi KildareBuild,

  thanks for that I will leave it on some more to see if that's why it's not working properly, although I suspect it won't make much difference.

I'm not sure that a rooms distance from the manifold should make so much of a difference to the temperature of said room, especially if the system is properly "balanced", ie rooms further away have more flow allowed to them, those closest less, it's only a house we're talking differences of a few meters.

I got the heatpump and underfloor piping from the people who installed it, (If you don't mind I'll not give you their name until they've "fixed" my system), and have no idea of the "U loop" spacing, what I will say is that the length of the piping had a large bearing on the price.

ALERT.


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## ludermor (1 Dec 2006)

alert said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> To be honest with you the heat iproduced in the house is rather poor with most rooms not heating up to any noticable degree, those closest to the manifolds seem to be "ok" but those further afield are freezing.
> Any advice welcome,
> ...


 
Did you get the pipes tested before the floor was laid. Is there a chance that the loop in broken in some place?


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## alert (1 Dec 2006)

Lakeview said:


> It might be that your manifold is not "balanced". Each loop on the flow of the manifold will have a dial of some description that opens and closes, which restricts the flow to a more or lesser degree.
> 
> There is a key post on this site where Heinbloed explains in detail how you balance a manifold, put simply though the longest loop of coil should have its restrictor open the most all the way down to the shortest loop being closed the most. The goal is to get the same temperature on the return side of each loop. (read the key post!!)


 
Hi LakeView,

  I'm afraid that the system has already been "Balanced", .. this was done in the summertime when the systems flaws were not so apparant   The longest coil is consantly open, even it's solenoid can't close it.

No, I suspect that some muppet plumbed the storage tank backwards and I'm suffering for their ineptitude.

ALERT.


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## alert (1 Dec 2006)

ludermor said:


> Did you get the pipes tested before the floor was laid. Is there a chance that the loop in broken in some place?


 
I believe that the pipes were pressure tested, I'm afraid I was out of the country when they were laid. However, I don't suspect a leak or the pressure in the system would have dropped significantly and it hasn't. If it were only 1 room which was freezing I'd be suspicious of a break, .. however nearly all seems unlikely.


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## paddyp (2 Dec 2006)

alert said:


> The longest coil is consantly open, even it's solenoid can't close it.



It doesn't matter if the longest one is fully open if the shorter ones are open too much, the water will shortcircuit through the shorter loops. 

The only way to balance the thing properly is to use a thermometer. Even if they used a thermometer they may not have let the system run long enough to come up to temperature and if it as balanced at the height of summer the readings may not have any meaning - the floor in our living area gets enough sunshine in august to be well over 20 degrees.

Maplin sell a multimeter that comes with a K-type thermocouple for 20-25 quid, you'll find a million other uses for it too over the years.

[broken link removed]

Read Heinbolds post as suggested:

[broken link removed]

Good luck


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## alert (4 Dec 2006)

Thanks PaddyP,

   I've been looking for Heinbloods' Keypost, concerning manifold balancing, but am unable to find it, if you know where it is I'd appreciate if you'd forward me a direct URL link please.

ALERT.


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## Leo (4 Dec 2006)

Hi Alert, there is a link to all the Key Posts at the top of the H&G forum. This is the Geothermal Heating one.
Leo


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