# Bank says fixed rate will move to tracker, Morgage agreement shows otherwise :-(



## ryan-neil (25 Dec 2009)

Hi All.

A bit of a strange one and would appreciate any advise people have.

I called the bank last month re buying my way out of my fixed rate. I was told i would loose my tracker of ECB + 1.25%. Obvously not something i want to do so i stayed as is. 

BUT!! On checking my loan papers tonight i seems as per my original offer it reverts to variable. But i have only the European Standardised Information sheet and not the actual loan offer as such.

Is it possible to force the bank to offer the tracker, any advise would be appreciated.


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Dec 2009)

Hi Ryan

Can you remember what you agreed when you took out the fixed rate? Did you think you were getting a tracker rate on expiry of the loan? Or, did you think at all about what would happen when the fixed rate would expire? 

I would guess that the person to whom you spoke on the phone has made a mistake. When your fixed term expires, you will be put on a variable rate in accordance with the contract. 

If you think that the loan offer is different from the actual contract, then you could ask for a copy of the loan offer "for your files". 

How long have you got to go to the end of the fixed period? The market may well have changed in two or three years, although we are unlikely to be back to the overcompetitive market of ECB + 1.25% trackers.

Brendan


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## ajapale (26 Dec 2009)

Similar questions have been posted here in the last few weeks. I have a feeling that the banks may be "trying it on". If I find the links ill post them here.

end of fixed rate - bank not offering option as per loan agreement (ECB+1.1 %)

aj


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## Knuttell (26 Dec 2009)

ryan-neil said:


> Hi All.
> 
> A bit of a strange one and would appreciate any advise people have.
> 
> ...


I Had a similar problem with several RIP mortgages all held with the same lender these had been fixed for from early 2006 at a competitive rate and just before the rises in interest rates.

   In mid 2008 I kind of figured that trackers would be phased out so I rang my lender to seek reassurance that my fixed loans would all roll back on to tracker mortgages..Indeed they would I was told by the customer care rep,I asked for this assurance in writing for all the outstanding Fixed(formerly tracker)mortgages,there was only one of these she said she would do this for because it was a three year fixed the rest were five year and too far out for written assurances,but to contact them within a year of fixed expiration and written assurances would be sen out.I got the letter of assurance for the three year fixed,so fair enough I thought.

   Cut to a 2 month before the three year fixed was to expire,I received a letter from lender informing me this mortgage would be rolling on to a variable 4.7%(ECB 1.25% the the time),
   Thinking but not believing this to be an admin error I rang customer care,I outlined my position incl written assurance and was told quite politely that that was the way it was going to be,they no longer did tracker end of story.

   At this stage I was pretty vexed about this shabby carry on,so I rang the Financial regulator,outlined my position to the rep on the phone incl the written guarantee of a roll over to tracker and INCREDIBLY this donkey tells me the banks are quite correct to to this regardless of written guarantee!!

   Seeing as I was utterly wasting my time with our so called regulator I rang up the broker who organised these mortgages,he was very surprised at the Banks stance and aghast at the regulators position,told me to leave it with him,a week later a letter from the lender informing me my fixed would now roll back onto my old tracker rate of 1.5% over ECB.

   Heres the thing though I was misled not only by the Bank(quelle surprise)but by the regulator,though why I am annoyed my the regulators incompetence at this stage is beyond me,maybe to add insult to injury is my taxes are paying for these useless clowns,whose ineptitude nearly cost me thousands of euro in additional interest payments.

   I reported this particular regulator rep to his bosses and many months later received a letter of apology.


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## twofor1 (26 Dec 2009)

The Ombudsman has recently ruled on a similar case where the loan should have reverted to the original tracker rate after an agreed fixed rate period but the bank refused to do so, Have a look at the case on page 9 of the December 2009 case studies here.

http://www.financialombudsman.ie/case-studies/default.asp 
[broken link removed]


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## Knuttell (26 Dec 2009)

twofor1 said:


> The Ombudsman has recently ruled on a similar case where the loan should have reverted to the original tracker rate after an agreed fixed rate period but the bank refused to do so, Have a look at the case on page 9 of the December 2009 case studies here.
> 
> http://www.financialombudsman.ie/case-studies/default.asp



My understanding is the above mentioned Building Society against which the Ombudsman ruled are now challenging his ruling in the High Court,I am unsure when this is scheduled to take place?

Also is there not an agreed upon acceptance of the Ombudsman ruling as final from both sides in any dispute upon which he mediates?hardly surprising the financial institution is attempting a weasle like move to get from under their responsibility...despicable behaviour.


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## twofor1 (26 Dec 2009)

Knuttell said:


> My understanding is the above mentioned Building Society against which the Ombudsman ruled are now challenging his ruling in the High Court,I am unsure when this is scheduled to take place?
> 
> Also is there not an agreed upon acceptance of the Ombudsman ruling as final from both sides in any dispute upon which he mediates?hardly surprising the financial institution is attempting a weasle like move to get from under their responsibility...despicable behaviour.


 
The Ombudsman’s ruling is legally binding on both parties, subject only to an appeal to the High Court within 21 calendar days.

The fact that the Ombudsman has published this ruling would suggest the 21 days has elapsed without appeal.

Interestingly he also stated the following;

‘’He also considered that the Society should review if cases similar to this one had arisen or may arise in future and if so, he considered that the same approach be applied. For that reason he copied his Finding to the Financial Regulator for any action it deemed appropriate to take including industry wide though he noted that other providers specified in detail what rate would apply at the end of a fixed rate period.’’


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## Knuttell (12 Aug 2010)

Is there any further information about this?


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## Paulk (17 Aug 2010)

Knuttell, it's unreal that the FR told you what the bank said is right i.e. that you were no long entitled to a tracker - despite the fact that you had written assurance etc. 

Surely the Financial Regulator should be the one to ensure that the banks do not attempt to dupe people onto more expensive long-term rates, which is clearly what the OP's bank is attempting to do. There must be so many customers, unaware of this site, who have no idea that their bank is ripping them off by engaging in the above. 

I actually had the opposite experience. My bank reconfirmed that I would switch to the agreed tracker at the end of the fixed period. I decided to phone my broker for extra reassurance. However, to my surprise, he said that I would inevitably switch to a variable rate at the end of the the fixed period, as trackers were discontinued in late 2008. This caused me great concern. Luckily my bank honored the original agreement. 

It's just as well that my broker did not negotiate your mortgage, as he would have said the same thing which your bank and the FR told you!


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## Knuttell (17 Aug 2010)

Paulk said:


> Knuttell, it's unreal the the FR told you what the bank said is right i.e. that you were no long entitled to a tracker - despite the fact that you had written assurance etc.
> 
> Surely the Financial Regulator should be the one to ensure that the banks do not attempt to dupe people onto more expensive long-term rates, which is clearly what the OP's bank is attempting to do.



At the time I spoke to this FR donkey,he was adamant to the degree of being patronising to me,explaining in ABC fashion how the the Credit crunch unfolded,the banks moving away from trackers and incredibly spent a few minutes explaining how if they were no longer doing this product,how could I expect to avail of something that no longer exists?

Before hanging up I explained a few facts to him about the incompetent role the FR regulator had played in this blasted mess and how this incompetence was manifest from the bottom right to the top and back again purely from speaking to him.

What sort of training do these guys get??on the basis of my one encounter....none...a less pushy person than myself would have been out by many tens of thousands of euro,to add insult to this heaped upon misery,I am paying this guys salary.


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## Knuttell (17 Aug 2010)

Paulk said:


> It's just as well that my broker did not negotiate your mortgage, as he would have said the same thing which your bank and the FR told you!



Very true,I am now in dispute with my lender over this issue,I have no paperwork guaranteeing rollover for the tracker for the 5 year fixed,however I found a clause in the loan offers that says the variable will not exceed 1.5% over ECB rate,the lender has refused to honour this,so I have made a complaint to the Ombudsman,his ruling is final,I have no problem with this.

I will,you can be assured,post the results of his decision when I get them.


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## PaddyW (18 Aug 2010)

Unbelievable behaviour by some banks. You sign on the dotted line, that's it, you're committed with no other options. They sign and it's a case of sure well chance our arms now and try to do people for thousands. Disgraceful. I would be extremely surprised if the FR does not rule in your favour Knuttell.


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## Paulk (19 Aug 2010)

KNUTTELL, what the banks and brokers at times engage in, especially with unsuspecting customers, would never really surprise me. However, to receive a response like you did from the FR is simply unacceptable when they should be the people protecting borrowers from the banks/brokers.


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## Knuttell (17 Nov 2010)

Update

I was offered the choice of mediation or straight through to full investigation,I declined mediation as it really is a black and white issue,the letter also indicated a timeline of 5 months to address as they are overwhelmed with complaints,this really illustrates a massive rev upwards in miserable deceitful carry on from the banks...no surprise there anyway.


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## DrMoriarty (17 Nov 2010)

Thanks for the update, Knuttell. Keep us posted, and good luck.


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## PaddyW (17 Nov 2010)

Fair play Knuttell, keep us informed.


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## Knuttell (4 Mar 2011)

*Update*.

In November received a letter from the Ombudsman informing me that due to the volume of complaints my case would not be looked at for at least 16-20 weeks.
I initiated this complaint in July 2010,it would appear I will be lucky if the investigation is started in late April-May.
I rang them up recently,I explained that Banks were now stopping fixed rates and revving upward the variable rate,I explained that I was in effect in limbo and could not afford to be caught in a situation where variable rates are going up and there was no safety net of a fixed rate and that all my decision making was on hold awaiting this investigation into would I or would I not have my tracker mortgage returned to me..


 I can no longer afford the luxury of awaiting the Ombudsman investigation  to start,I really would be caught out badly if when in May or June or  whenever Ombudsmans office get round to dealing with it,if that decision  goes against me,so I am very seriously considering fixing and  abandoning any hope of help from this office.


Its extremely frustrating that in this Country nothing works,not the  Regulators,the Banks the Political system ad nauseum,I really felt that  when I started this process in July that it would take 6-8 weeks,*I never ever thought it would take probably upwards of 40+ weeks.*


I am just about out of runway as regards this matter.


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## Knuttell (9 May 2011)

*Update*

Rang ICS last Friday to be told that I was not one of the 2,000  customers to be returned to a tracker as mentioned in an article in the Independent,she then exhausted all the reasons  why I was not in this category before saying she needed to speak to a  supervisor,finally came back on the line to say that she could see  nothing either in the MFA or original mortgage agreement *that should  have stopped me being offered a tracker on expiration of the fixed  rate.*..she has escalated this upwards as a complaint....

..and the beat goes on...

She rang me back this morning to tell me that no she got it completely wrong that on a good hard look at my paperwork I was not entitled to a tracker as I had fixed from a tracker and because of this I was not entitled to return to a tracker.

How can you argue with that logic,told her the case was under investigation by the Ombudsman and frankly was not even going to dignify that with a reply.

Received a call from the Ombudsmans office late this evening,BOI/ICS were throwing in the towel and I was to be returned to a tracker rate and difference paid since expiry of fixed rate would be refunded to me.

The difference between what I would have paid on the old style variable compared to the Tracker is close to 30k over the course of the outstanding mortgage.

One thing I have learned over this episode is never to take at face value what a call centre rep tells you whether they are Bank or Financial Regulator staff,I am reminded of the William Goldman quote *"nobody knows anything"*

Thanks to all who start or contribute their experiences to threads like this and indeed to those involved with running this site,it has been an invaluable resource in challenging the Bank on this issue.


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## raglan (9 May 2011)

great news Knuttell, thanks for updating and giving us hope!


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## JoeB (9 May 2011)

Yes, things take time. 

I have a complaint with the FR ongoing for over a year, about an insurance company unilaterally changing the terms of a contract. It relates to me stating that I had no burglar alarm, several times, and them immediately insisting I install one, AFTER I signed up with them and signed a lease on the basis I had insurance.


The case is being looked at now, one year later.


If you think the FR is bad try COMREG. They happily publish documents stating that no company in Ireland has ever been in compliance with a compulsory EU directive since 2002! (Comreg 0749 for example) Comreg happily stated in 2002 that COMREG have a legal obligation to ensure compliance, and yet they also happily publish documents in 2007, 2009 and 2010  stating that all companies are non compliant and always have been.
A complaint, made by me, is currently with the EU. It's ongoing with the EU for over two years. I've been complaining to Comreg since 2008, and the case is completely cut and dried, all broadband contracts in this country are in breach of an EU directive, and all broadband contracts can be null and voided on that basis. Not many people know this...


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## Bronte (10 May 2011)

Knuttell said:


> One thing I have learned over this episode is never to take at face value what a call centre rep tells you whether they are Bank or Financial Regulator staff,I am reminded of the William Goldman quote *"nobody knows anything"*
> 
> .


 
Try not to give up, it's tough to keep battling but it will be worth it.  I'm fighting my own case and also have the 16 to 20 week delay but am not under pressure time wise or money wise.  You too are giving us all good advice with your experiences.  Nobody should be prepared to accept at face value what any expert or body says, that's quite clear from your experiences.  Don't underestimate how that will help others.   Challenge it and continue to challenge it until you get satisfaction would seem to be the name of the game.

Question?  What happened after the 16 to 20 weeks did they send you another letter saying there was another delay.


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## PaddyW (10 May 2011)

Delighted for you Knuttel, well done.


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## Knuttell (10 May 2011)

Bronte said:


> Question?  What happened after the 16 to 20 weeks did they send you another letter saying there was another delay.



The investigation is started by a Senior Investigator who will confirm to you in writing that the file is on his desk that the investigation has commenced and that he has sent a formal summary of the complaint to the Provider raising certain questions and seeking documentary evidence relating to the complaint,once they receive the Providers response they will furnish you with a copy of it and give you an opportunity to make a further submission.

The list of questions they ask the Provider to supply is pretty exhaustive and indeed forensic,I suspect these Senior Investigators have a legal background.

I read through the list,he down broke it into sections.

*Summary of Complaint
Schedule of Questions
Schedule of Evidence Required*

I only had to read it once to see BOI/ICS could not possibly stand over their claim.

I was awaiting with interest their reply and was prepared to once again reply to their answers,however they settled out of the blue.

Best of luck Bronte.


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## JoeB (10 May 2011)

Smart Phones are the answer, coupled with an app called Total Recall. You can record your conversations. (This is the reason I got my first smart phone)

This is perfectly legal, (if you're not a company subject to Data Protection laws)... call centers might like to tell you that it's not legal but it is...

It's hard for them to deny recordings, .. and it's easy for you to ask clear questions, including do they have any doubt about the answer,.. they often happily say 'no, this info is cast in stone.'' 'great' you say.


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## Butter (11 May 2011)

Well done Knuttell.  I won a case against NIB recently by taking the complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman's Office.  I can't fault the FO's office (except perhaps for the delay in dealing with the case) but I suspect they are overwhelmed by people with legitimate complaints being disallowed by their banks.


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## Knuttell (11 May 2011)

Butter said:


> Well done Knuttell.  I won a case against NIB recently by taking the complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman's Office.  I can't fault the FO's office (except perhaps for the delay in dealing with the case) but I suspect they are overwhelmed by people with legitimate complaints being disallowed by their banks.



No was also quite impressed with the Financial Ombudsmans Office and the  individual I dealt with was an intelligent guy who knew his job inside out,this contrasts hugely with my experience with dealing with the Banks and esp the Financial Regulators office,its bad enough they havent a clue how to do their jobs but they *manage to sound like they do*...which makes them extremely dangerous.


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## JoeB (11 May 2011)

If the FSO is understaffed he should get more funding,.. he provides a very useful service.

He may be funded by the banks and other covered bodies... if so they should give him more... keeping him underfunded helps them to the detriment of their customers.


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## Knuttell (11 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> If the FSO is understaffed he should get more funding,.. he provides a very useful service.
> 
> He may be funded by the banks and other covered bodies... if so they should give him more... keeping him underfunded helps them to the detriment of their customers.



The FSO that should be getting personnel form less busy Civil Service depts,obviously there would be a bedding in period where staff are trained up but this would cost us nothing,as it is they do not even seem to have enough staff on reception,I would quite frequently have to ring on 6 or 7 different occasions before the phone would be picked up,given the behaviour of Banks its the last life line for most dissatisfied customers but I will say this understaffed or not,its the only show in town capable of putting  manners on both banks and bank staff alike.


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## SNIPER (23 Jun 2011)

Hi Knuttel
We are in the same situation with ics at the min.They are also taking the line that were are not entitled to return to our Tracker even though we where never made aware of all the implications at the time of leaving our fixed.
just wrote today to get a final decision on the matter so we will the bring our case to the financial ombudsman.
if you can issue any advise on a plan from here i would be very greatfull.
Thank you in advace


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## Knuttell (23 Jun 2011)

SNIPER said:


> Hi Knuttel
> We are in the same situation with ics at the min.They are also taking the line that were are not entitled to return to our Tracker even though we where never made aware of all the implications at the time of leaving our fixed.
> just wrote today to get a final decision on the matter so we will the bring our case to the financial ombudsman.
> if you can issue any advise on a plan from here i would be very greatfull.
> Thank you in advace



Hi Sniper,

Address your request for a final response letter to:

*Ms Bernie O Donnell,
Customer Affairs Manager,
ICS Building Society,
C/O Bank Of Ireland Customer Care Unit,
Lower Baggot st,
Dublin 2.*


Keep the letter to the facts,leave all emotion out of it,do not embellish or importantly leave out facts,do it in chronological order,refer to MFA or Mortgage agreement to support your case,quote relevant sections,in particular draw attention to the absence of any clear explanation as to what would happen to the tracker on expiration of the fixed rate.


At the end of the letter ask her for her Final Response to this issue,she will know where this is heading from that request.



The lender has 25 working days to respond to your Final Response letter,if they reply in the negative then the decks are cleared for you to proceed with your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman.


From my own experience,ICS denied that I had any case,indeed I spoke to a customer care rep who informed me that I had no case that very afternoon I received a call from the Investigator in the Ombudsmans office telling me BOI had thrown in the towel...so they will deny you right up to the wire.


Let us know how you get on,best of luck with it.


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## SNIPER (27 Jun 2011)

Hi knuttell
I just posted in my latest response last Friday,But i think i have covered most of your key points as you have outlined them above.
I didnt address my letter to anyone in particular though just customer care.
You would imagine that a system policy applies to all relevant customers.
I ended the letter by seeking a Ref for the Ombudsman as you advised.
Thanks a mill, i will keep you updated,fingers crossed.


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