# Legal work involved in conveyancing



## sueellen (13 Aug 2002)

I have purchased a Site and built a New House.
I arranged my own Finance with AIB.
My own Solicitors have now sent me a bill:
Solicitors Fee to include Work done in obtaining Loan of 
£80K  ( Fee = 0.75% or £600 )
Miscel Outlay £40
Vat 21% £134.40
Bespeaking Folio on Completion £15.53
Bespeaking Searches on Loan £30.00
Stamp Duty on Deed of Mortgage £90.00
Land Registry Fees on Registration of Mortgage £253.00
Total Costs £1162.93

I can not understand all these charges as I arranged my own Mortgage Finance

Can anyone advise on above.
Regards Sean


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## ClubMan (13 Aug 2002)

*Re: Solicitors Fees regarding Mortgages*

I think the heading (if that's what it is) _Solicitors Fee to include Work done in obtaining Loan of £80K_ may be a bit misleading if you arranged your own finance - possibly your solicitor simply uses this a standard heading on converyancing invoices even when the client arranges the loan themselves (as most/many probably do these days)? However the breakdown of charges and (as far as I can judge) the charges themselves don't seem unreasonable. The main fee is the solicitor's professional fee while the other charges are mostly mandatory/state fees (in particular the next largest charge - land registry). Is there something specific that you're not happy with?


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## Sean (13 Aug 2002)

*Solicitors Fees regarding Mortgages*

Hi Clubman,
Thanks for your speedy reply,

I feel that the Solicitors Fees of £600 plus Vat at 21% for registration of the Mortgage is not justified.

The Solicitors had no imput in arranging my Finance.

The heading on the Bill :

Solicitors Professional Fee to include all work done in connection with obtaining an AIB loan for £80,000


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## ClubMan (13 Aug 2002)

*Re: Solicitors Fees regarding Mortgages*

*I feel that the Solicitors Fees of £600 plus Vat at 21% for registration of the Mortgage is not justified*

I reckon that the heading for this fee is misleading and that, in fact, this is the solicitor's professional fee for the conveyancing not specifically for arranging/registering the mortgage. As far as I remember c. 1% of the mortgage value or £600 would be around the norm and in line with the Law Society's guidelines for conveyancing charges. The fact that the professional conveyancing fee is calculated as a percentage of the mortgage value is regardless of the fact that you may have arranged the mortgage yourself. For what it's worth I arranged my own mortgage a few years ago but the solicitor's bill came to something similar to yours. If you are still not happy with this then by all means query the bill with your solicitor.


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## Shane (13 Aug 2002)

*Re solicitors fees*

Did your solicitor have any interaction with AIB?  e.g. were the drawdown cheques issued through him

Why is the bill in £ and not euros?  

I think £600 is very reasonable for the solicitor's work - all the other bits and pieces are specific fees which will get passed on to someone else.  As Clubman points out, most people arrange their own finance so it's not as if your solicitor is doing less work than average.


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## tedd (13 Aug 2002)

*Re: solicitors fees*

I think this fee is reasonable. Irrespective of who arranges the mortgage, the solicitor deals with the bank because they provide the bank with the deeds to the property until the mortgage is paid in full.  

tedd


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## mf (13 Aug 2002)

*Re: solicitors fees*

After all that.....the solicitors point of view


Perhaps if solicitors better explained what they do, if lending institutions were clearer with their borrowers, if clients would listen to us etc., etc., a lot of things would be so much clearer.

The starting point is why did you need a solicitor? You needed a solicitor because you needed a loan and the bank wanted security for the money they were lending you. Without security, they would not lend or if they would lend it would be a fraction of what you wanted. What was the security? A mortgage over the site and house.  What is a mortgage? It is a transfer of your ownership of your property to the bank with “ a proviso for redemption” – i.e. when and if you repay the mortgage, they will release the property back to you. What did the solicitors do? They investigated the title, they checked the planning, they should have made sure you procured an Architects Opinion on compliance with planning permission and building regulations. They gave an undertaking to the bank that the title was clear, that they would register the banks mortgage and that they would furnish a copy of the folio showing the mortgage registered to the bank.  In exchange for all this, you got the money and that is what you are paying for. Could you have done all this? Frankly no – you do not have the expertise and more important you do not have insurance – if I make a mess of the security, and the bank suffers a loss, they have recourse to my insurance. If they allowed you to arrange your own security without the involvement of a solicitor, their only recourse would be from you and they do not want that. They want their safety net.  And yes, the fee should be in euros. 


mf


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## ClubMan (14 Aug 2002)

*Re: solicitors fees*

Interesting explanation of what exactly "conveyancing" means. 

*You needed a solicitor because you needed a loan and the bank wanted security for the money they were lending you.*

But don't you still need a solicitor even if you were paying hard cash in full for a property?

Apart from that I presume you more or less concur with the earlier comments on the charges themselves?


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## mf (14 Aug 2002)

*Re: solicitors fees*

Hello Clubman
Technically, you could do your own conveyancing but I would regard that as akin to doing your own kidney transplant! I think your chances of getting it right and, chiefly, making sure you acquired a complete interest, that the planning was right, that there were no lurking marital breakup/taxation/ right of way issues etc.,etc.  such as would enable you to sell on would be slim. If I was selling to you, I would be reasonably helpful but no more. A solicitor acting for a vendor in those circumstances could easily end up doing both parties work. 

As regards fees, in my opinion, those fees are reasonable. I have very strong views on the downward pressure on solicitors fees - as far as I am concerned, as a profession we are eating our young! Conveyancing in this country is too time consuming, too difficult and carries too many responsibilities to work for the kind of fees that I see being mentioned  on this board. The agonising part I think is that consumers are in a win- win situation. You can get someone to do a knock down job for a knock down price and if they screw it up you will have a perfectly good claim against them in negligence. At that stage there will be no discount on the amount of compensation sought by the aggrieved consumer who wanted his job done properly. However, if you lose the purchase of your dream house because you cannot sell your own until title is rectified at the solcitors expense, that will be little consolation. And before anyone says it, paying full whack is no guarantee - I know that. But using someone who is recommended and charges a reasonable fee is a good indicator.  

Rant over.

mf


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## Tom (14 Aug 2002)

*Solicitor fees*

Mf,your points seem well made and I'd agree the original posters fees seem reasonable.
One point though is that you mention that there is downward pressure on solicitors fees but isn't it true that they have gone up considerably in recent years due to the huge rise in house prices,given fees are based on a percentage of mortgage/house price.


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## mf (14 Aug 2002)

*Re: Solicitor fees*

Tom, if you look at the postings on this board it will become abundantly clear that the trend is not to charge on a percentage basis but on a fixed fee basis. Rea Home Mortgages publish charges based on organising mortgage and conveyancing. Other contributors similarly quote fixed fees. Very few consumers would expect to and very few do pay fees charged on a  percentage basis. 

mf


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## Tom (14 Aug 2002)

*I stand corrected*

Fair enough,I was assuming Seans original post reflected the status quo.....

"Solicitors Fee to include Work done in obtaining Loan of 
£80K ( Fee = 0.75% or £600 )"


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## ClubMan (14 Aug 2002)

*Solicitors fees*

mf
“Perhaps if solicitors better explained what they do, if lending institutions were clearer with their borrowers, if clients would listen to us etc., etc., a lot of things would be so much clearer.”

Maybe so, yet the client is very vulnerable challenging a solicitor is not the easiest thing for a young inexperienced person to do. 
Here is a recent bill from a solicitor it would appear the professional fees are based on a % basis. 

```
Fee for Professional Services Rendered   €1000.00
Miscellaneous outlay                       €45.00
Stamp Duty @ 3%                           €761.84
Land Registry Fees Deeds of Transfer      €190.00
Land Registry Fees Mortgage               €125.00
Opening a new Folio                        €60.00
Searches                                  €100.00
Folio and File Plan                        €25.00
Commissioner for Oaths                     €20.00
Vat items                                 €219.45
-------------------------------------------------
Total amount                             €2546.29
```

_Edited by ClubMan to fix tabular data layout._


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## sean (14 Aug 2002)

*Author of Query*

Hi & thanks to all replies.

It would appear that the majority of replies feel that the Fees charged are reasonable.

To clarify the situation: I purchased a site with the intention of building a new home for my wife & Family.
The Site was purchased and my Solicitor charged Professional Fees of 3% of the purchase Price plus Costs etc.
I have no problem with this.
I then arranged to have Plans drawn up and submited for 
planning permission.
Planning permission was granted in due course.

I then invited various Builders to quote for the building of the house.
I then made a decision which builder to give the contract.

I asked my Solicitor to draw up the Building Contract between the Builder and my self.
The Solicitor charged me Professional Fees of £100 plus Vat for this service.
I have no problem with this.

I then went to see my Bank Manager to arrange Mortgage Facilities for the Building of the House.
Facilities were agreed and all negoiations done by myself personally.
My Solicitors had no dealing with the Bank other than the registration of the Loan.
The Fees are as originally specified and in IR£ as this transactions relate to December 2001.

I am at a loss as to see why the Fees charges which was percentage based could be justified.

Again it would appear that if I had taken a Loan of £160,000 Would this mean I should have to pay £1200 plus Vat?

I am sure you will realise that a lot of people will be caught out in this respect.

Regards
Sean.


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## Shane (14 Aug 2002)

*Fees*

If the bill is in IR£ from last December, the VAT rate should be 20%.  It only increased in March this year.


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## mf (15 Aug 2002)

*Re: Fees*

Sean
I think the original query you had was: are the fees reasonable and I think the general response was yes, they are. You said that _“the Solicitors had no input in arranging my Finance”_ but I hope I’ve clarified that that is not what you were charged for although the wording of the bill may have been misleading. 

_“My Solicitors had no dealing with the Bank other than the registration of the Loan” _– again hopefully I’ve set out for you in general terms what was involved in doing just that. You were charged for doing the work necessary to enable you to draw down that loan and you can see that the solicitor did do the work because you got the money. The bank would not give you the money unless the work was done.

You’re still saying that you’ re at a loss at a loss as to see why the Fees charged which was percentage based could be justified. But overwhelmingly you are being told that the fees are fair. 

_“Again it would appear that if I had taken a Loan of £160,000 Would this mean I should have to pay £1200 plus Vat?!”_
But that is not the case – your solicitor charged you as a percentage of the value of the loan. He could have charged you on the time taken basis. 
If you borrowing again, you would ask on what basis he was charging and now having accessed this excellent site and source of information you would know enough to ask for a reduction of the fee if you felt the fee was not justified. You can always ask for a reduction – you will not always get it and you can move your business elsewhere – such is the power of the consumer. 


Bank phobia
Point taken – I do know that it can be hard to deal with solicitors/ accountants/ professional. I would say though that most people who approach me have a good idea from talking to their friends and from reading up on the subject what they may be paying and most people have no hesitation in trying to argue my fee down. They also very often do not realise that the bottom line figure they are paying is not all for me. If you look at your overall cost of EUR 2546.00 60% of that relates to government charges – stamp duty, vat and registration fees.

I looked at your figures – if stamp duty was paid at EUR761 at 3% then it is a non residential site worth c. EUR26000.00. The fee was EUR1000.00 – either a 4% fee or more likely a broad view of the work involved in purchasing, mortgaging and registering title. That looks perfectly reasonable to me. Do you think it was too expensive, do you have an idea of what you feel you should have paid, did you think the solicitor was professional in the dealing, would you go back to them again? 

mf

_Edited by ClubMan to facilitate readability._


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## Bank phobia (15 Aug 2002)

*Solicitors fees*

mf,

I suspect the fee was based on a % of the mortgage that the person got through a broker ie. €100,000.  For the work involved and complexity of the dealings it is worth it. The €1000.00 charge I felt was a bit steep, when everyone has a cut the charges mount up considerably. The Solicitor was professional.
Yes the devil you know etc. (he is also my solicitor)
Mf  Thanks for your comments.


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## Middenface McNulty (15 Aug 2002)

*Solicitor's eating their young*

Maybe it's just me,

but it does induce a warm cosy feeling as I head to the land of nod!!!!!!

MM


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## mf (17 Jul 2003)

*Buyer/Seller*

I’ve posted back on this on the Homes and Mortgages section but just some additional notes: 

Current value is all that matters. Either you do a deal or not. But she is entitled to look for her current half share. There is no reason why she should allow you to benefit by selling to you at the then market value. By all accounts, the value is not inflated – that is what it will fetch on the open market. 
You will incur conveyancing fees. In particular, there is quite clearly a lot of umming and ahhhing going on here – you need to decide on what you are doing. I think your issues are much bigger than conveyancing fees – they are about trying to deal with the estate and what you both want. And these issues are very common in family estate because for many people the inheritance from parents is the single biggest lump sum they’ll ever get – people like big lump sums and very few of us are good at giving it away.

mf


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## ClubMan (17 Jul 2003)

*Re: Buyer/Seller*

_mf_ - I've moved _Marie's_ query and your reponses to a . Apologies for any confusion caused.


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## ninsaga (30 Aug 2004)

*Re: Buyer/Seller*

Hi,
   Was searching through old topics lookind for a list of legal & gov. charges associated with buying  property. An old topic from a few years back listed teh charges as follows at the time....


Fee for Professional Services Rendered   €1000.00
Miscellaneous outlay                       €45.00
Stamp Duty @ 3%                           €761.84
Land Registry Fees Deeds of Transfer      €190.00
Land Registry Fees Mortgage               €125.00
Opening a new Folio                        €60.00
Searches                                  €100.00
Folio and File Plan                        €25.00
Commissioner for Oaths                     €20.00
Vat items                                 €219.45
-------------------------------------------------
Total amount                             €2546.29

..is this still accurate or are their a few things to be added these days....

ninsaga


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## MRY (30 Aug 2004)

*FEES*

How can solicitors justified their fee in Ireland the fees are outrageous??


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## ninsaga (30 Aug 2004)

*Re: FEES*

I know - but that is not what the question is....


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## mry (30 Aug 2004)

*fees*

A mortgage company always uses a solicitor to make sure that the transaction is above board.  why not use the same solicitor that the loan company is using this should save you a bit.

A loan company will not give a mortgage unless it gose through their solicitors.  Therefore they will want to sell documentation from the purchases solicitors.  that is why it so easy to do your own conveyancing because all you have to do is get all the relevant documentation and let the bank solicitors see them and if everything is Ok then the bank will release the money if they are satisfied.
All people needs to do is buy a good conveyancing book from Blackwells and follow it step-by-step and then hand over everything to the lenders solicitors who will give the go ahead to relase the money.

Have anyone done this in Ireland???


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## niallquinnspants (7 Mar 2005)

*Re: Buyer/Seller*

Ya that sound familar as to what we are been lined to up pay.
The bill is 1700 for the solicitor to oversee the site purchase and also the mortgage.


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## summersun (17 Feb 2008)

*Re: Key Post: Legal work involved in conveyancing*

bravo mf, tnx 4 tking the time, v helpful


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## bond-007 (25 Jun 2008)

*Re: Key Post: Legal work involved in conveyancing*



> A mortgage company always uses a solicitor to make sure that the transaction is above board. why not use the same solicitor that the loan company is using this should save you a bit.


Conflict of interest?


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