# Method of tracking share trades, P&L and CGT



## NewEdition (11 Nov 2019)

I have a Degiro account and have mostly just purchased shares rather than sold.
I am starting to review my portfolio and want to sell some and buy others etc.

How do people keep track of all their purchases, sales, what taxes and trading fees they had and where you may have purchased a particular share at various points in time at varying prices.

Is there a simple spreadsheet or app that people use for this?

It proves to be quite confusing even with my dozen or so trades per year.
If I can solve this, I would be more comfortable trading more frequently but am worried about losing track!


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Nov 2019)

I have solved it by rarely trading. 

So a simple Excel spreadsheet is enough for me. 

Brendan


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## rob oyle (11 Nov 2019)

I've used a spreadsheet with a line for every transaction carrying the details that I have. Not mind-blowing and as long as it's kept up to date, not a lot of work involved. I then summarise at the bottom of the sheet where I have multiple transaction in relation to any one stock.


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## NewEdition (11 Nov 2019)

Do you think the below covers it?
(sorry, formatting seems lost when I paste)

Company Company X
Ticker Code AAA111
Purchase Date 01/01/2019
Purchase price 1.53
Qty purchased 150.00
Value of investment 229.50
Purchase fees 2.50
Purchase taxes 5.57
Net invested 221.43


Selling date 12/06/2019
Selling price 2.71
Qty sold 150.00
Value of sale 406.50
Selling fees 2.50
Selling taxes 11.17
Net sale value 392.83


Profit/Loss 171.40


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## NewEdition (11 Nov 2019)

Actually, I am not covering where I may have made multiple purchases at different times and prices.. This is the confusing one for me. Maybe if I detail every purchase as a separate "company" it might keep it clear in my head.


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## EmmDee (11 Nov 2019)

You need to track "tax lots" i.e. the individual purchases. Your sales need to be calculated against the relevant tax lot. Usually first in, first out i.e. when you sell, the oldest tax lots are used first.

If you purchase 100 shares of ABC at €1 each. And then purchase 100 at €1.50. If in the future you sell 150 shares at €2 each, you have a profit of (100 shares @ €1 profit) + (50 shares @ €0.50 profit) = €125. You are now carrying one position of 50 shares @ €1.50. Essentially you are calculating P&L in packages of each purchase.

As long as you only have a small number of transactions it's fine to do it manually. If you're going to have many transactions (or partial sales and then reinvestments followed by more partial sales), you need to start looking at accounting packages (or see if your broker can provide "tax lot P&L reporting")

Edit - the problem with your idea of counting each purchase as a separate company is where, as in the example above, you sell an amount of units not equal to the purchase units


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## NewEdition (11 Nov 2019)

A very clear response! Thanks!


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## jpd (12 Nov 2019)

Check out Microsoft Money - it's free [broken link removed]

and while your at it, look at MSMoneyQuotes which will enable you to update your portfolio prices for ever for a small one-off fee of $9.99


			Gaier Software - Restore Microsoft Money Online Quotes with MSMoneyQuotes


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## paul00s (12 Nov 2019)

I'm with JPD, I've been using money / gaier for years now. A lot of the functionality in money doesn't work anymore but it let's me manually set up different accounts for each bank and broker I have. Track shares and divis, in multiple currencies, and FIFO / special situations. The reports view let's you run reports like 'this year' which shows realised gains / losses on the year and dividend payments including exchange rates for the taxman. The portfolio manager then has masses of options but you can see on one page each shares losses gains over 1 day 1 week 4 weeks ytd, how large a % of your portfolio a share is, annualised returns,  total returns, loads more!

Just a one click update everyday and all prices done.


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## NewEdition (12 Nov 2019)

Interesting.. I will take a look.
Have been fretting about this for a while but it seems straight forward.
A couple more questions:

I bought some shares on Italian, Spanish and Greek exchanges.. They are charging me €2.50 at random points for exchange fees.
At what point do I offset that cost?
Against the hopeful profit when I sell?
Or offset against annual dividends?

Also when I get dividends, a % is taken off by Degiro. I take it the 33% CGT is on the NET amount I get from Degiro?
Or is the deducted amount part of the CGT.

On that deducted amount.. I have not got many dividends but it seems to be around 16.66%. What is that for?


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## jpd (12 Nov 2019)

The fees charges when purchasing shares are added to your purchase cost and so will be used to calculate your capital gain or loss when you dispose of the shares

The Dividend Withholding Tax is a tax withheld from dividend payments and remitted to the tax authroties in the country where the company who paid the dividend is registered. If this country has a double taxation treaty with Ireland, it will define the maximum tax that can be withheld. For EU countries the maximum is 15%. Any amount deducted above this can be reclaimed from the tax authorities in the country concerned. When you declare your dividend income to the Revenue in Ireland, you have to declare the gross amount. that is the amount before the tax is deducted, and the non-refundable part of the tax (usually 15%) for which the Revenue will usually accord you a tax credit to offset the tax due in Ireland


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## NewEdition (12 Nov 2019)

Thanks JPD

On the fee part - It seems its an annual fee, regardless of how many companies I invest in on that exchange and is charged annually while I hold shares on that exchange. How should that be accounted for?


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## jpd (12 Nov 2019)

Who's charging you? it should be detailed in their list of fees and charges

I haven't heard of exchanges charging investors an annual fee - usually it the broker and should be in their fee booklet

This can not be offset against anything, afaik. It's just part of cost of holding shares


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## NewEdition (12 Nov 2019)

I bought shares on the Degiro platform on the Spanish, Italian and Greek exchanges and they charge a €2.50 annual exchange fee.

I am doing a review of where I am on all this, as it got a bit messy for a while, so I am now realising some of the extra charges.


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## jpd (12 Nov 2019)

Who is "they" - Degiro?, the exchanges?


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## NewEdition (12 Nov 2019)

Well, Degiro I assume - It appears on my account as, a row for each excange:


DEGIRO Exchange Connection Fee 2019 (Bolsa de Madrid - MAD)EUR -2.50


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## jpd (12 Nov 2019)

This is just part of the cost of operating the Degiro account - it can not be offset against dividend income nor capital gains

Brokers and banks are past masters of charging for all sorts of "extras" that are in fact necessary to run your brokerage account


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## NewEdition (12 Nov 2019)

OK @jpd - Thanks for all your help!!


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## EmmDee (12 Nov 2019)

In this case, this looks like a local exchange fee being passed back to you from DeGiro. Often the exchanges charge an access fee to members - either for general access or data feeds. It may be a fee charged by Madrid for each underlying beneficial owner.

It might be something DeGiro would absorb if you were doing enough activity in that market


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## NewEdition (29 Nov 2019)

Another question on this dividend witholding tax.
When I sell shares, the tax is deducted, yet I get an annual allowance for CGT right?
So should that tax be refunded to me then if I am within the annual CGT allowance?
Otherwise the allowance is not an allowance, its a reduced tax for that amount, @15% right?!


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## losttheplot (29 Nov 2019)

CGT and Dividend Withholding tax are two different taxes and are treated separately. Degiro will compile an annual report that shows your loss and gains for the year and any dividend tax withheld


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## NewEdition (29 Nov 2019)

So if I sell.. I pay 15% witholding tax.. then another 33% CGT at the end of the year?
Is that correct?


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## EmmDee (29 Nov 2019)

NewEdition said:


> So if I sell.. I pay 15% witholding tax.. then another 33% CGT at the end of the year?
> Is that correct?



In Spain? No I don't think so. 15% withholding is on dividends only. Not sale proceeds.

The only place I can think of where there could be withheld tax on sales is the US if you don't provide the beneficial owner form - they have a sort of "emergency" tax on all cash receipts.


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## garbanzo (29 Nov 2019)

To the best of my knowledge, dividends are counted as income not a gain; so income tax in the form of the DWT is applicable not CGT. They get you every which way....


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## EmmDee (29 Nov 2019)

garbanzo said:


> To the best of my knowledge, dividends are counted as income not a gain; so income tax in the form of the DWT is applicable not CGT. They get you every which way....



Dividends are income. They are paid less 15% withholding tax. You then need to declare the full dividend and the withholding tax deducted in your income tax. This means you will pay additional Irish income tax up to your marginal rate.

Proceeds from sale of shares are not income and you don't get hit with any tax at source. You do have to declare any profit on the sale in your tax return and you will pay capital gain tax on the profit (after the initial allowance)


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