# Sit In at the Passport Office



## StevieC

Fair play to the people who did a sit in protest at the passport office. It about time the general public stood up to the unreasonable unions trying to hold the country to ransom.


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## Purple

Well said and well done to them.


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## Deiseblue

Everybody is absolutely entitled to protest at something they perceive to be unjust 

The same entitlement of course applies to Trade Unions.


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## RMCF

I thought they were going on a 'work to rule' strike?

If so, surely dealing with customers and answering phones is part of your daily job description?


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## Deiseblue

Yorky said:


> Not at the taxpayer's expense they're not. These people are effectively on strike but still on full pay. They appear to be getting away with holding the country to ransom.


.                                    

I think you will find that the unions are entitled to take industrial action if mandated to do so by their members.


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## z107

Am I entitled to go on tax strike?
If the public sector aren't going to provide the service I'm paying them to provide, then does it not follow that I should withhold tax?


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## Deiseblue

umop3p!sdn said:


> Am I entitled to go on tax strike?
> If the public sector aren't going to provide the service I'm paying them to provide, then does it not follow that I should withhold tax?



Witholding properly payable tax is an offense unlike legally mandated trade union industrial action.


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## z107

If there is a mass protest, will everyone get arrested then?
That would be interesting.

After all, what other way do the private, non-unionised workers have to protest?


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## becky

Yorky said:


> So,bear with me on this, public servants are entitled to get paid when not performing their duties provided they have provided their union with a legal mandate to do so?


 
The employer can decide to deduct wages by a percentage for the non performance of certain duties.  This was on the cards when nurses were not answering phones a few years ago as part of their campaign for a 35 hour week. I can't remember the percentage but it was something like 13%.

The employer hasn't gone down this road yet as talks are ongoing but it is an option they may pursue.


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## becky

umop3p!sdn said:


> If there is a mass protest, will everyone get arrested then?
> That would be interesting.
> 
> After all, what other way do the private, non-unionised workers have to protest?


 
In theory they could arrested but it rarely happens. 

A few years ago a number of builders were protesting about the fact that their employer (as they thought0 considered them self employed contractors and when work dried up they were not entitled to JSA.

They were not members of a union and therefore did not have protection under the Industrial Relations Act, so were removed by the Gardai.


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## mathepac

RMCF said:


> ,,, If so, surely dealing with customers and answering phones is part of your daily job description?


In certain parts of the public service, almost certainly in the civil service, job descriptions are the exception rather than the rule. I wouldn't know what the split is in the passport office concerned.


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## Bill Struth

RMCF said:


> I thought they were going on a 'work to rule' strike?
> 
> If so, surely dealing with customers and answering phones is part of your daily *job description*?


As a civil servant I don't have a job description, or terms and conditions of employment. Apparently I'm employed _'at the pleasure of the Finance Minister.' _That is why it was not a breach of the payment of wages act when my pay was cut without my consent.


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## Purple

Bill Struth said:


> As a civil servant I don't have a job description, or terms and conditions of employment. Apparently I'm employed _'at the pleasure of the Finance Minister.' _That is why it was not a breach of the payment of wages act when my pay was cut without my consent.



Does that not also mean that a work to rule is impossible?


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## StevieC

It doesnt really matter about peoples right to strike or work to rule, in my opinion what matters is whether there is an achievable end to it (which there doesnt seem to be). Leaving aside the fairness and public/private sector arguments, the government has no money. The unions are trying to rob a beggar. The private sector have been hit much harder than the public sector but the public sector unions expect the private sector to give them a bailout (in essence to subsidise their pensions when their own have gone through the floor due to markets collapse), the money borrowed to give them pay rises will ultimately be paid for by the private sector. Unions plan is to annoy the very people who pay their wages, not the government but the private sector tax payer.

The only ones hurting are the kids that didnt get to go to Disneyland because someone wouldnt do their job and give them a passport. Like I said fair play to the general public who made a stand against this stupid industrial action.

If the government was like a company making lots of profit but trying to screw its staff I would have sympathy, but this isnt the case.


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## z107

I fully agree StevieC.
When I see industrial action like this I get angry for two reasons, first is that in effect what they are looking for is yet more private sector money. They want me to give them more of my money. This money isn't going to come from anywhere else, because the government is too busy pouring that into the failed banks.

The second reason it makes me angry is that they're targetting the wrong people. Look at the 'I can't get a passport' thread. This is terrible. If they don't like their jobs, why not just leave and let someone else have it?


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## Latrade

StevieC said:


> The only ones hurting are the kids that didnt get to go to Disneyland because someone wouldnt do their job and give them a passport. Like I said fair play to the general public who made a stand against this stupid industrial action.


 
I don't agree with the industrial action in any way shape or form and the response this morning from the unions claiming the Department were to blame for Friday was stretching it. However, I think this is a bit too emotive a statement.

My only comment on this and those at the sit in is just how many people have left this to the last minute to get their passports? We've had threads on here with people in situations where there passport is nearing expiration date and other passport related issues and the individuals have been vilified for not planning ahead enough. Given the WTR has been well publicised for a while, just how many of those there on friday had left it late to sort it out?

Granted not all will have easy access to the office, but if it were me and there was industrial action, would I leave it to the day before my precious family trip to disney land to organise passports?


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## Complainer

umop3p!sdn said:


> When I see industrial action like this I get angry for two reasons, first is that in effect what they are looking for is yet more private sector money. They want me to give them more of my money. This money isn't going to come from anywhere else, because the government is too busy pouring that into the failed banks.


This is nonsense, of course. The 'private sector' does not have a monopololy of Govt funding. It is not just the private sector that pays taxes or pays for public services.


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## liaconn

mathepac said:


> In certain parts of the public service, almost certainly in the civil service, job descriptions are the exception rather than the rule. I wouldn't know what the split is in the passport office concerned.


 
Not true. Civil Servants have job descriptions called 'role profiles' which are reviewed twice a year.


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## carpedeum

I know this has been voiced before, but, civil servants need to take a reality check. In the good times, many of them benefitted from bench marking against similar positions in the private sector. Many people in those positions in the private sector have now lost their jobs or taken large pay cuts. Reverse bench marking to realign the two sectors should probably have happened anyway, but, similar decreases in civil servants pay have happened and will continue to happen. They have a cushion of job protection in the civil service and have not experienced the redundancies of the private sector. Yes, it is difficult, but, at least they are getting a paycheck.

I have no sympathy for people (arrogant fools) who leave the renewal of passports to the last minute or until after booking holidays. Genuine emergencies should be separated and passports issued within 24 hours.


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## Complainer

Yorky said:


> Fundamentally it is just the private sector that pays taxes and pays for public services;The public sector could not exist without private sector funding. The private sector enables the public sector employee to pay taxes by funding their job and these taxes are just a partial rebate on the cost of providing a public sector job.
> 
> Face it, regardless of how essential the service being provided is, public sector employees are the antithesis of wealth creation: a financial drain.



This is exactly the kind of nonsense that drives public sector staff into direct action, such as that being seen at the passport office. On the off-chance that this is not wild trolling, let's just look at the factual errors in your post.


Yorky said:


> The private sector enables the public sector employee to pay taxes by funding their job


Everybody with income or captial gains  (above threshold levels) and everybody who spends money pays taxes, regardless of whether they are public or private sector employees. As stated above, private sector employees do not have  a monopoly on paying taxes.



Yorky said:


> these taxes are just a partial rebate on the cost of providing a public sector job.


No-one gets a 'partial rebate'. Public servants get paid a wage or salary for doing their job.



Yorky said:


> Face it, regardless of how essential the service being provided is, public sector employees are the antithesis of wealth creation: a financial drain.


Public services are about serving the public. The teacher who is teaching our children this morning is not a 'financial drain'. He or she is providing a service for a salary. The Garda who is giving evidence in court this morning is not a 'financial drain'. The local authority official who is processing motor tax payments or processing housing applications is not a 'financial drain'.

Public services matter.


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## mathepac

Complainer said:


> .... It is not just the private sector that pays taxes or pays for public services.


This is the fallacy that PS workers and their sycophantic unions have been propagating for years, as if the PS is  'self-sufficient' or 'self-financing', the ludicrous 'I am my own Grandpa' argument. Wealth creation is the preserve of the private sector; infrastructure creation and maintenance is primarily the responsibility of the public service using tax money.

Tom, Dick and Harry work hard in their private sector jobs and pay tax. Paddy is a  PS worker and collects the tax from Tom, Dick and Harry and uses it to pay his own wages and provide the infrastructure for all of them. Paddy pays tax but that money came from Tom, Dick and Harry to begin with, Paddy created none of it.

If Tom, Dick and Harry are forced to emigrate, Paddy is forced to follow them as there is no wealth being created at home to pay him or to maintain and renew the infrastructure.

Too simplistic a view, downright disrespectful, cynical? Maybe, but possibly useful in order to maintain some perspective as to the roles that the tail and the dog are meant to fulfil.


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## z107

Public sector employees do not create wealth, they consume wealth. The public sector does not export anything, or create products etc. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is.



> Everybody with income or captial gains (above threshold levels) and everybody who spends money pays taxes, regardless of whether they are public or private sector employees. As stated above, private sector employees do not have a monopoly on paying taxes.


Private sector employees pay the wages, and taxes, of public sector employees. I've often wondered why public sector people just don't get their payments tax free. For example, if a junior administrator's pay is €90k gross, just pay them €70k (or whatever) without the paperwork of working out taxes. Public sector tax is a zero sum game.


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## StevieC

This thread isnt about an us v them private/public sector spat. Its about the unions waking up and realising that the private sector cant afford to pay more tax so that public sector pay/benefits remain untouched. If public sector could afford to pay enough through more capital gains tax etc. then they wouldnt be doing an industrial action. Fact is public sector needs private sector to fund their benefits and private sector is annoyed that the unions seem oblivous to the private sectors plight.

Some people quite rightly said that leaving getting your passport to the last minute wasnt wise but there are people for instance that had no intention of travelling but then find out about the death of a loved one abroad and need to travel, no allowance seems to be made for emergency cases like this.


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## Firefly

umop3p!sdn said:


> I've often wondered why public sector people just don't get their payments tax free. For example, if a junior administrator's pay is €90k gross, just pay them €70k (or whatever) without the paperwork of working out taxes. Public sector tax is a zero sum game.


 Because, I imagine, PS pensions are based on gross earnings.


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## Complainer

mathepac said:


> This is the fallacy that PS workers and their sycophantic unions have been propagating for years, as if the PS is  'self-sufficient' or 'self-financing', the ludicrous 'I am my own Grandpa' argument. Wealth creation is the preserve of the private sector; infrastructure creation and maintenance is primarily the responsibility of the public service using tax money.


I've never heard anyone claiming that the public sector is self-sufficient or self-financing. That's certainly not what I've said. Could you give just one example of any public sector union official claiming that the public sector is self-sufficient or self-financing?



mathepac said:


> Tom, Dick and Harry work hard in their private sector jobs and pay tax. Paddy is a PS worker and collects the tax from Tom, Dick and Harry and uses it to pay his own wages and provide the infrastructure for all of them. Paddy pays tax but that money came from Tom, Dick and Harry to begin with, Paddy created none of it.
> 
> If Tom, Dick and Harry are forced to emigrate, Paddy is forced to follow them as there is no wealth being created at home to pay him or to maintain and renew the infrastructure.
> 
> Too simplistic a view, downright disrespectful, cynical? Maybe, but possibly useful in order to maintain some perspective as to the roles that the tail and the dog are meant to fulfil.


Maybe I'll do a nice Tom/Dick/Harry story about Tom the banker, and Harry the property developer, and Dick the exploitative private sector employer when I have a bit of time. I'm not sure it will add much to the debate, mind you, particularly if (like your story) it is hugely selective in the parts of the story it tells.


umop3p!sdn said:


> Public sector employees do not create wealth, they consume wealth. The public sector does not export anything, or create products etc. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is.


This is not true. Public sector staff in universities produce valuable research, often paid for by the private sector. Public sector staff in museums/galleries produce exhibitions that bring in revenue. Public sector staff in local authority gyms/swimming pools run classes that bring in revenue. NSAI staff run training and provide auditing services, often paid for by the private sector etc etc etc.


umop3p!sdn said:


> Private sector employees pay the wages, and taxes, of public sector employees.


Again, not true. You seem to have forgotton about the Govt's other sources of taxes beyond income tax, particularly VAT & CGT.

This whole 'them and us' arguement fails to recognise that people can and do move between public and private sector regularly.


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## DerKaiser

Yorky said:


> Face it, regardless of how essential the service being provided is, public sector employees are the antithesis of wealth creation: a financial drain.


 
In the same way all PAYE workers are a drain on their companies and all profitable enterprise is a drain on consumers.


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## sandrat

I just hope all the industrial action ends soon and I too don't understand how the passport office workers can get paid while refusing to work. I am not in the union but am a public sector workers so a lot of my colleagues are working to rule and not doing certain tasks but I must continue to do them or face disciplinary action.


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## liaconn

That's because you made a choice not to join the Union. I'm not sure what your complaint is?


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## Green

carpedeum said:


> I know this has been voiced before, but, civil servants need to take a reality check. In the good times, many of them benefitted from bench marking against similar positions in the private sector. *Many* people in those positions in the private sector have now lost their jobs or *taken large pay cuts.*


 
I think you will find that *all* civil servants have taken pay cuts....


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## sandrat

liaconn said:


> That's because you made a choice not to join the Union. I'm not sure what your complaint is?


 
Not a complaint as such. Just seems strange that it is ok for someone not to do work and still get paid and another to do their work and get paid the same money just because they are/are not a member of a union. 

If you go on strike and are in the union you don't get paid but if you stop doing part of your work you continue to get paid as normal.


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## mathepac

Complainer said:


> ...  Maybe I'll do a nice Tom/Dick/Harry story about Tom the banker, and Harry the property developer, and Dick the exploitative private sector employer when I have a bit of time...


I'll look forward to it and hearing about your assessment of Paddy in his roles as financial regulator, corporate law enforcer and champion of truth, justice, fairness, transparency, dispenser of passports and monitor of minimum wages.


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## Green

sandrat said:


> Just seems strange that it is ok for someone not to do work and still get paid and another to do their work and get paid the same money just because they are/are not a member of a union.


 
Not strange at all. The union representing the civil servants have given their employers a signed notification of their action under the industrial relations legislation following a ballot of members. Work to rule is a normal part of industrial relations disputes, whereby workers are refusing to carry out certain aspects of their duties or have rescinded cooperation in certain areas.


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## galleyslave

YOBR said:


> I think you will find that *all* civil servants have taken pay cuts....


  that would be because their employer (the state) has no money left to pay them with. Less money in the kitty means lower pay... in the non union sector it usually means pay cuts or layoffs. The unions don't seem to grasp that


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## Green

galleyslave said:


> that would be because their employer (the state) has no money left to pay them with. Less money in the kitty means lower pay...


 
I agree with the latter part of your point. I was just making the point that 100% of civil servants had taken two pay cuts.


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## liaconn

sandrat said:


> Not a complaint as such. Just seems strange that it is ok for someone not to do work and still get paid and another to do their work and get paid the same money just because they are/are not a member of a union.
> 
> If you go on strike and are in the union you don't get paid but if you stop doing part of your work you continue to get paid as normal.


 
You are equally entitled to refuse to do the work as a protest. You just won't get protection from the Union because you are not a paid up member.


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## Pique318

YOBR said:


> I agree with the latter part of your point. I was just making the point that 100% of civil servants had taken two pay cuts.


You don't agree that the state can't afford the wage bill then ?
S'funny, I thought we were billions in debt.


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## Green

Pique318 said:


> You don't agree that the state can't afford the wage bill then ?


 
That aspect was not covered in the post...


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## Purple

DerKaiser said:


> In the same way all PAYE workers are a drain on their companies and all profitable enterprise is a drain on consumers.



+1
The idea that no public sector worker creates wealth is nonsense.
The private sector is, in general, the engine of the economy but a good public sector is also essential for the economy, and the country, to function property. 

This just comes down to an employer being broke; in this case it’s the state. It is hard for any employees to take a pay cut so the employees in the passport office have my sympathy. That doesn’t extend to me agreeing with their industrial action because it’s pointless. There’s no money to pay them anything extra.


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## DeeFox

I heard a few minutes of Joe Duffy last Friday in which two people were on to Joe - they were sitting in the locked passport office (with 9/10 others) and said they would not leave until they got their passports.  They said they could see the staff behind the blinds but the staff were refusing to talk to them.  
Did they get their passports in the end?


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## Shawady

DeeFox said:


> Did they get their passports in the end?


 
There were some peope interviewed on the news on friday, that got their passport (or were promised would get their passport) after the sit-in.


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## Latrade

Phew, the AAM Circle of Life is back on track. 

Personally I think the WTR is a good thing so we could get back to Them V Us, we were running out of things to talk about for a while there.

Complainer already beat the odds on mentioning bankers and property developers way earlier than the bookies had in mind,  but bets are being taken the following:

1. Use of FAS as an example of PS/CS wastage before the end of page 3
2. Use of "I've taken a pay cut of X, so you should take a pay cut of Y" before end of page 4.
3. Reference to ERSI report by either side
4. Subsequent rubbishing of ERSI report by opposite side.
5. Counter use ERSI with reference to OECD report...and subsequent rubbishing.
6. Asking for a specific example by either side, but then rejecting the example provided
7. Blaming Bertie.


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## z107

Bertie and FF are to blame. I thought that was pretty much accepted fact at this stage.


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## Complainer

Latrade said:


> Phew, the AAM Circle of Life is back on track.
> 
> Personally I think the WTR is a good thing so we could get back to Them V Us, we were running out of things to talk about for a while there.
> 
> Complainer already beat the odds on mentioning bankers and property developers way earlier than the bookies had in mind,  but bets are being taken the following:
> 
> 1. Use of FAS as an example of PS/CS wastage before the end of page 3
> 2. Use of "I've taken a pay cut of X, so you should take a pay cut of Y" before end of page 4.
> 3. Reference to ERSI report by either side
> 4. Subsequent rubbishing of ERSI report by opposite side.
> 5. Counter use ERSI with reference to OECD report...and subsequent rubbishing.
> 6. Asking for a specific example by either side, but then rejecting the example provided
> 7. Blaming Bertie.


Excellent.



mathepac said:


> I'll look forward to it and hearing about your assessment of Paddy in his roles as financial regulator, corporate law enforcer and champion of truth, justice, fairness, transparency, dispenser of passports and monitor of minimum wages.


No chance of you giving just one example of any public sector union official claiming that the public sector is self-sufficient or self-financing to back up your earlier claims, then?


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## Sunny

Latrade said:


> Phew, the AAM Circle of Life is back on track.
> 
> Personally I think the WTR is a good thing so we could get back to Them V Us, we were running out of things to talk about for a while there.
> 
> Complainer already beat the odds on mentioning bankers and property developers way earlier than the bookies had in mind, but bets are being taken the following:
> 
> 1. Use of FAS as an example of PS/CS wastage before the end of page 3
> 2. Use of "I've taken a pay cut of X, so you should take a pay cut of Y" before end of page 4.
> 3. Reference to ERSI report by either side
> 4. Subsequent rubbishing of ERSI report by opposite side.
> 5. Counter use ERSI with reference to OECD report...and subsequent rubbishing.
> 6. Asking for a specific example by either side, but then rejecting the example provided
> 7. Blaming Bertie.


 
Yeah, it does look like we are returning to the good old days!! Still tiresome!


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## galleyslave

YOBR said:


> I agree with the latter part of your point. I was just making the point that 100% of civil servants had taken two pay cuts.


that would be because they all work for the same broke (in more ways than one) employer


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## Green

galleyslave said:


> that would be because they all work for the same broke (in more ways than one) employer


 
Really!


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## Green

Latrade said:


> Phew, the AAM Circle of Life is back on track.
> 
> Personally I think the WTR is a good thing so we could get back to Them V Us, we were running out of things to talk about for a while there.
> 
> Complainer already beat the odds on mentioning bankers and property developers way earlier than the bookies had in mind, but bets are being taken the following:
> 
> 1. Use of FAS as an example of PS/CS wastage before the end of page 3
> 2. Use of "I've taken a pay cut of X, so you should take a pay cut of Y" before end of page 4.
> 3. Reference to ERSI report by either side
> 4. Subsequent rubbishing of ERSI report by opposite side.
> 5. Counter use ERSI with reference to OECD report...and subsequent rubbishing.
> 6. Asking for a specific example by either side, but then rejecting the example provided
> 7. Blaming Bertie.


 
Good one...just need an election now to give us something else to discuss.


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## z107

Meanwhile, back on topic, a simple solution would be to pay extra to a couple of managers so that they fast track training for new employees. Then sack the old ones, and let the new (lower paid) employees take over. A condition of employment would be that they aren't in a union.

Even better, privatise issuing of passports.

It's an utter disgrace, and the government need to deal with this now.


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## Green

umop3p!sdn said:


> Meanwhile, back on topic, a simple solution would be to pay extra to a couple of managers so that they fast track training for new employees. Then sack the old ones, and let the new (lower paid) employees take over. A condition of employment would be that they aren't in a union.


 
And using this solution, how long do you reckon before a full strike starts?


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## liaconn

umop3p!sdn said:


> Meanwhile, back on topic, a simple solution would be to pay extra to a couple of managers so that they fast track training for new employees. Then sack the old ones, and let the new (lower paid) employees take over. A condition of employment would be that they aren't in a union.


 
You've obviously never heard of Employment Rights, the Unfair Dismissals Act or the Employment Appeals Tribunal.


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## Latrade

liaconn said:


> You've obviously never heard of Employment Rights, the Unfair Dismissals Act or the Employment Appeals Tribunal.


 
That's where his system is beautiful in it's simplicity, the EAT and Labour Courts would be first against the wall.


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## Pique318

YOBR said:


> And using this solution, how long do you reckon before a full strike starts?


Aren't Aer Lingus doing something very similar ?


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## liaconn

Well, 'simplicity' certainly comes to mind.


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## z107

What's the alternative?


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## Green

Pique318 said:


> Aren't Aer Lingus doing something very similar ?


 
EI are a commercial semi state body ....


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## Latrade

liaconn said:


> Well, 'simplicity' certainly comes to mind.


 
This isn't the "can do attitude" we need right now. I think it's an idea that's could just win Your Country, Your Call. Well runner up to my idea of using the E-voting Machines to issue passports, give driving tests, appear as witnesses in Court Cases, write ministerial responses for the Dail, review radiological tests results and direct Air Traffic.

On the upside, the sheer weight of the IT system failure would generate an additional 200,000 jobs in that sector and we can open a brand new call centre (in Hanger 6) with High Grade Technical Jobs for a 1000 people given the amount of queries it will generate. 

Public/Civil sector reform sorted and the unemployment numbers halved at the stroke of a pen or pressing of a button.


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## Sunny

YOBR said:


> EI are a commercial semi state body ....


 
No they are not. They are a public company. The Government just happens to own shares.


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## Purple

You were up early this morning Latrade!
Cynicism as it should be


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## Sunny

Latrade said:


> This isn't the "can do attitude" we need right now. I think it's an idea that's could just win Your Country, Your Call. Well runner up to my idea of using the E-voting Machines to issue passports, give driving tests, appear as witnesses in Court Cases, write ministerial responses for the Dail, review radiological tests results and direct Air Traffic.
> 
> On the upside, the sheer weight of the IT system failure would generate an additional 200,000 jobs in that sector and we can open a brand new call centre (in Hanger 6) with High Grade Technical Jobs for a 1000 people given the amount of queries it will generate.
> 
> Public/Civil sector reform sorted and the unemployment numbers halved at the stroke of a pen or pressing of a button.


 
But what if the E-Voting machines turn on us? Remember Terminator.


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## Green

Sunny said:


> No they are not. They are a public company. The Government just happens to own shares.


 
Correct, I forgot about the floatation but therein lies the answer to the question.


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## Latrade

Sunny said:


> But what if the E-Voting machines turn on us? Remember Terminator.


 
Would they do a worse job than the current lot?

Besides which, I never understood the whole blasting with big guns things, Ctrl+Alt+Delete and the whole thing stops. Wouldn't have made for a great film I agree, but still I can't believe not one of them in 3 (+1) films even thought of giving it a go.


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## z107

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...passports-waiting-to-be-processed-450958.html



> "In the meantime there are some discussions taking place through third-party facilitation, which are continuing."


I wonder what they're planning?

People should be allowed to make their own passports until the issue subsides.


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## RonanC

umop3p!sdn said:


> People should be allowed to make their own passports until the issue subsides.



Oh sure why not start printing your own Euro Notes to spend on your holidays while your at it


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## becky

umop3p!sdn said:


> http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...passports-waiting-to-be-processed-450958.html
> 
> 
> I wonder what they're planning?
> 
> People should be allowed to make their own passports until the issue subsides.


 
These talks have been going on for the last week or so. Cowan asked the unions and employers to meet, so it's not a meeting arrnaged especially for he passport issue. 

The unions and employers have been meeting since Christmas but not offically. I suspect they have decided on something (well health has anyway). 

Oh thanks for the laugh on people making their own passports.


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## Complainer

An interesting angle on how this dispute was brought to the boil on Friday from;

http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-new...port-office-staff-facing-pay-cuts-for-action/

One might wonder where the 'machiavellian' approach is coming from.


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## Sunny

Interesting piece. 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/libby_purves/article7070306.ece

I know people in other Countries who can't get over how the Ireland hasn't exploded into riots and social unrest after the recent budgets and to be honest, I struggle to explain it.


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## StevieC

To be honest I think the government should outsource the passport production to Israel at least until the dispute is over... they seem to have made a few Irish passports recently...


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## Purple

StevieC said:


> To be honest I think the government should outsource the passport production to Israel at least until the dispute is over... they seem to have made a few Irish passports recently...



Lol


----------



## thedaras

I am disgusted at what I am hearing about the behavior of the staff at the passport office.

I think they hoped that the public would get angry at the government ,but in fact this hasn't happened and if anything the public are backing the government in facing down this sort of behavior ,The staff have scored an own goal..

This is not about private v public,because there is no comparison.
If staff behaved this way in the private sector,this debate would not be happening,because they would have been sacked.

There is absolutely no incentive for the staff to work normally as they never have and never will suffer the consequences.

I have worked in this environment and I saw the lazy, do as little as possible ,not answering phones,being rude to costumers ,taking advantage of every possible loophole,moaning about everything,getting away with so much it sickened me,so I left.

God help those who have to work in this environment,it is very dishearting for those who do want to do a decent days work,when all around you the place is full of militant dossers,and until the government make them suffer the consequences of their actions ,it will continue.


----------



## mathepac

His Ministership is not impressed according to the RTE wireless news and there'll be wigs on the green and consequences after he talks to "management", whatever that is.


----------



## sandrat

dept of finance has told staff in passport office they will not be paid if they don't do the dutes of their grades including rostered duties


----------



## carpedeum

YOBR said:


> I think you will find that *all* civil servants have taken pay cuts....



Yes, agreed, but, workers in the private sector in general are not working to rule, but, are getting on with their jobs.... If they are still in the jobs. I am not ranting against civil servants. I genuinely admire the work they do. However, if they had a risk of losing their jobs, they might he more inclined to take the medicine and work through this recession thankful that they had a job.


----------



## DublinTexas

Giving that one has to pay €80 to get a passport (standard passport/standard service) I wonder why the Government does not outsource the service anyhow.

  Why not create a cost-recovery agency that funds the service itself by the fees it charges for the passport (it works in Canada for example).

We could outsource the production of the passports to a larger European country, let’s say the German Bundesdruckerei for example. They already produce passports for other countries and have the experience in digital applications (fast application) and quality passport material.

All we than need is application centers that validate that application is actually entitled to an Irish passport, does the security checks and then transmits the passport data electronically to the passport production facility. 

That center than operates by recovering the production cost and the service cost via the passport fee. 

I’m not saying let private companies taking over, what I’m saying is reform this aspect of public service, work together with other governments and recover the cost for a professional service. It does not matter if the passport center is than staffed by public servants, contractors or agency workers as long as security and process are in place.


----------



## markpb

liaconn said:


> You've obviously never heard of Employment Rights, the Unfair Dismissals Act or the Employment Appeals Tribunal.



I'm (obviously) not an expert but I can't see how the DoFA could loose that case. If an employee fails to do their work, gets a warning, continues to fail and is fired, what is illegal about that?


----------



## becky

markpb said:


> I'm (obviously) not an expert but I can't see how the DoFA could loose that case. If an employee fails to do their work, gets a warning, continues to fail and is fired, what is illegal about that?


 Nothing illegal if they follow a process like this. Firing isn't an option as ee's are protected under the Industrial Relations Act when on industrial action. Docking pay is the logical option.


----------



## shnaek

becky said:


> Firing isn't an option as ee's are protected under the Industrial Relations Act when on industrial action.



Is work-to-rule regarded as industrial action? If so they should have been docking pay ages ago.


----------



## Latrade

shnaek said:


> Is work-to-rule regarded as industrial action? If so they should have been docking pay ages ago.


 
It is but you can't dock wages with a legitimate WTR because the employees are working to exact specifications of their contract of employment. In theory, therefore, they aren't in breach of the contract and aren't open to docking of wages or any form of action against them.

The only avenue would be if there is a specific link in the contract and pay to certain performance criteria and standards, say operating standards. These would set the specifics on the duties of certain roles and could be seen (depending on the specifics of the contracts) as part of their contract of employment.

However, if these don't exist and the duties have never been formalised, there is nothing illegal with the WTR and nothing that is a breach of contract.


----------



## Green

shnaek said:


> Is work-to-rule regarded as industrial action? If so they should have been docking pay ages ago.


 
Perhaps if the Govt had initiated the current talks early in January we might not be in this place today....


----------



## Pique318

Perhaps if the promised reforms and improvements in productivity in return for benchmarking were introduced, none of this would be happening.


----------



## thedaras

Perhaps if the staff at the passport office were not as ignorant and rude to the people queuing ,the public may have some sympathy.

Also can anyone tell me what the position is for those who have applied for their passport through passport express, (where you are guaranteed to have it within ten days,and for that privilege you pay extra) and have not been able to get their passports?

Is this a breech of contract?

If so ,who is in breech of the contract?
Can the union or/and the government be sued for the loss of money people paid for flights /holidays etc?


----------



## MANTO

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0323/pay.html 

_The Department of Foreign Affairs has warned employees at the Passport Office they may not be paid from today if they refuse to attend to the public counter._


----------



## z107

> Can the union or/and the government be sued for the loss of money people paid for flights /holidays etc?


Can the government be sued for not providing travel documents in a timely manner? Is it a right that citizens of Ireland should be issued passports?


----------



## Caveat

thedaras said:


> Also can anyone tell me what the position is for those who have applied for their passport through passport express, (where you are guaranteed to have it within ten days,and for that privilege you pay extra) and have not been able to get their passports?


 
I think in fairness they advised from an early stage that the 10 day turnaround could not be guaranteed.  Not sure where those that were already in the system at the time might stand though.


----------



## Bill Struth

Pique318 said:


> Perhaps if the promised reforms and improvements in productivity in return for benchmarking were introduced, none of this would be happening.


 How?


----------



## shnaek

Latrade said:


> It is but you can't dock wages with a legitimate WTR because the employees are working to exact specifications of their contract of employment. In theory, therefore, they aren't in breach of the contract and aren't open to docking of wages or any form of action against them.
> 
> The only avenue would be if there is a specific link in the contract and pay to certain performance criteria and standards, say operating standards. These would set the specifics on the duties of certain roles and could be seen (depending on the specifics of the contracts) as part of their contract of employment.
> 
> However, if these don't exist and the duties have never been formalised, there is nothing illegal with the WTR and nothing that is a breach of contract.



It really is a different world, high up there in the Public Sector.


----------



## Deiseblue

shnaek said:


> It really is a different world, high up there in the Public Sector.


 
Private Sector Unions have also used work to rule practises in the past.

It is legitimate industrial action and not simply confined to the current dispute.


----------



## Latrade

shnaek said:


> It really is a different world, high up there in the Public Sector.


 
Really? I have a general vague contract without specifics and some operating procedures, but I know it doesn't actually specifiy 60% of what my job entails and that's a good "best practice" private sector employer. I can honestly say in all my years of work in the private sector, not one contract of employment and subsequent operating procedure has accurately or explicitly described my role.

This doesn't justify the action, but I don't think poor written contracts of employment is the sole preserve of the public sector.


----------



## Latrade

thedaras said:


> Perhaps if the staff at the passport office were not as ignorant and rude to the people queuing ,the public may have some sympathy.
> 
> Also can anyone tell me what the position is for those who have applied for their passport through passport express, (where you are guaranteed to have it within ten days,and for that privilege you pay extra) and have not been able to get their passports?
> 
> Is this a breech of contract?
> 
> If so ,who is in breech of the contract?
> Can the union or/and the government be sued for the loss of money people paid for flights /holidays etc?


 
Pedant moment: breech? The baby or trousers? Sorry.

If there were any cause for action it would be against the Passport Office, not the union. Who set up the express service? Did they introduce the systems to keep that promise? Or, did they just introduce it without any adjustment to terms and conditions of employment?


----------



## Mpsox

Latrade said:


> If there were any cause for action it would be against the Passport Office, not the union. Who set up the express service? Did they introduce the systems to keep that promise? Or, did they just introduce it without any adjustment to terms and conditions of employment?


 
I've no idea if they introduced the correct systems and procedures, but you don't have to renegotiate employees T&Cs everytime you introduce a new process.


----------



## Latrade

Mpsox said:


> I've no idea if they introduced the correct systems and procedures, but you don't have to renegotiate employees T&Cs everytime you introduce a new process.


 
I know, but if there were no specifics in the contracts or operating procedures, then the employer is vulnerable to a WTR.


----------



## Purple

Why is it that custom and practice is accepted as de-facto part of an employee’s T&C’s  when it comes to things that are of benefit to the employee (shift allowances, extra pay for bank holidays, top-up maternity pay etc) but custom and practice is not taken into account when it comes to things that employees don’t like (answering phones in hospitals and passport offices, doing yard supervision in schools etc)?

Why does it not cut both ways? If people have answered the phone as part of their job for the last 30 years how can they suddenly decide to stop doing it?


----------



## markpb

Latrade said:


> This doesn't justify the action, but I don't think poor written contracts of employment is the sole preserve of the public sector.



I don't think it's poorly written because it fails to mention that you're expected to answer your phone. That's just taking the **** and using official cover for it. I do lots of things in work that aren't in my contract, I don't think I'm doing my employer any favours, I'm just doing my job.



Purple said:


> Why is it that custom and practice is accepted as de-facto part of an employee’s T&C’s  when it comes to things that are of benefit to the employee (shift allowances, extra pay for bank holidays, top-up maternity pay etc) but custom and practice is not taken into account when it comes to things that employees don’t like (answering phones in hospitals and passport offices, doing yard supervision in schools etc)?



+1


----------



## Latrade

Purple said:


> Why is it that custom and practice is accepted as de-facto part of an employee’s T&C’s when it comes to things that are of benefit to the employee (shift allowances, extra pay for bank holidays, top-up maternity pay etc) but custom and practice is not taken into account when it comes to things that employees don’t like (answering phones in hospitals and passport offices, doing yard supervision in schools etc)?
> 
> Why does it not cut both ways? If people have answered the phone as part of their job for the last 30 years how can they suddenly decide to stop doing it?


 
Good question and I've no idea, I suspect because it hasn't been tested or raised within the Labour Courts. I don't agree with the situation, but employers do have to be aware that it could be seen that way.




markpb said:


> I don't think it's poorly written because it fails to mention that you're expected to answer your phone. That's just taking the **** and using official cover for it. I do lots of things in work that aren't in my contract, I don't think I'm doing my employer any favours, I'm just doing my job.


 
I never mentioned answering the phones, but what cost just to list in duties "telephone services" or something? I agree the situation is pathetic when it comes down to that, but my point was that it isn't just the public sector that has vague contracts of employment. It isn't just the public sector that is vulnerable to a WTR.

Most of us go beyond the exact specifics of our contracts without a second thought and so have the PS/CS by the looks of it as the services ran for years without this role being specifically stated.


----------



## Teatime

Deiseblue said:


> Private Sector Unions have also used work to rule practises in the past.


 
I am not sure they would get away with it now. Have the public service acknowledged yet that the private sector is suffering a lot more pain?

S.F.A Press Release: 
48% of small businesses have decreased their total pay bill last year (average decrease of 19.74%). 
43% have decreased their employee numbers


----------



## shnaek

Latrade said:


> Really? I have a general vague contract without specifics and some operating procedures, but I know it doesn't actually specifiy 60% of what my job entails and that's a good "best practice" private sector employer. I can honestly say in all my years of work in the private sector, not one contract of employment and subsequent operating procedure has accurately or explicitly described my role.
> 
> This doesn't justify the action, but I don't think poor written contracts of employment is the sole preserve of the public sector.



Personally, I don't look at my contract - I'm the guy that does his job. The employees of the passport office must be the other guys.


----------



## thedaras

Bomb scare at the passport office in Dublin..


----------



## Latrade

shnaek said:


> Personally, I don't look at my contract - I'm the guy that does his job. The employees of the passport office must be the other guys.


 
Good for you, personally I'm one of those who reads stuff before signing and still gets on with their job. To be overly repetitious: WTR on the basis of vague contracts of employment is not limited to the passport office, is not limited to the Public Sector.

That doesn't mean I condone or support the action.


----------



## liaconn

shnaek said:


> Personally, I don't look at my contract - I'm the guy that does his job. The employees of the passport office must be the other guys.


 
How do you know you're doing your job, it you don't even know what's in your contract?


----------



## Teatime

liaconn said:


> How do you know you're doing your job, it you don't even know what's in your contract?


 
This is a very constructive rabbit hole. I dispair.


----------



## liaconn

Teatime said:


> This is a very constructive rabbit hole. I dispair.


 
What???


----------



## truthseeker

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bomb-scare-at-dublin-passport-office-451075.html

Irate customers I wonder?


----------



## thedaras

Purple said:


> Why is it that custom and practice is accepted as de-facto part of an employee’s T&C’s  when it comes to things that are of benefit to the employee (shift allowances, extra pay for bank holidays, top-up maternity pay etc) but custom and practice is not taken into account when it comes to things that employees don’t like (answering phones in hospitals and passport offices, doing yard supervision in schools etc)?
> 
> Why does it not cut both ways? If people have answered the phone as part of their job for the last 30 years how can they suddenly decide to stop doing it?



Like your thinking purple..

It seems that the contracts must now be to infinity and beyond with the terms and conditions ie;get up from your chair,walk ten feet,pick up the phone ,talk,answer etc etc.
However you can be absolutely guaranteed that the unions would find a loophole like, The phone isn't a black one, I was at another desk at the time and thats more than ten feet etc...


----------



## liaconn

Well, it just said 'around the area' of the passport office. The Passport Office is located near the Dail and very near Buswell's, popular haunting ground of many of our illustrious TDs.


----------



## thedaras

truthseeker said:


> http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/bomb-scare-at-dublin-passport-office-451075.html
> 
> Irate customers I wonder?



Why would customers do it? 
Would be more advantages to the staff


----------



## liaconn

thedaras said:


> Like your thinking purple..
> 
> It seems that the contracts must now be to infinity and beyond with the terms and conditions ie;get up from your chair,walk ten feet,pick up the phone ,talk,answer etc etc.
> However you can be absolutely guaranteed that the unions would find a loophole like, The phone isn't a black one, I was at another desk at the time and thats more than ten feet etc...


 
The only reason you're noticing the work to rule is because normally civil servants don't stick to the letter of their role profiles but regularly take on extra work, help out colleagues, cover for their managers when they're out etc.


----------



## DB74

liaconn said:


> The only reason you're noticing the work to rule is because normally civil servants don't stick to the letter of their role profiles but regularly take on extra work, help out colleagues, cover for their managers when they're out etc.


 
In the private sector that's called "doing your job"!


----------



## liaconn

Yes, and we call it 'doing your job'. And a 'work to rule' means sticking to your contract in order to make a point about the 'job you do' in reality.


----------



## thedaras

liaconn said:


> Yes, and we call it 'doing your job'. And a 'work to rule' means sticking to your contract in order to make a point about the 'job you do' in reality.



Which is why, the Public/civil service need contracts that mention every movement they may need to do in the course of their job,as I said contracts that mention all they should do that go to infinity and beyond.

Personally I would be quite insulted to think that every aspect of my actions has to be listed for me. But there you go ,we need to learn whats needed and act on it.


----------



## liaconn

In which case there would be absolutely no leeway whatsoever. Do you not realise that, in the civil service, new policies and Government memos etc come on stream all the time requiring staff to immediately change course. If you managed them the way you're proposing it would be disastrous. Using an industrial action to totally change human resource policy would be ludicrous.


----------



## Firefly

liaconn said:


> Yes, and we call it 'doing your job'. And a 'work to rule' means sticking to your contract in order to make a point about the 'job you do' in reality.


 
If "doing your job" is not the same as "work to rule" then logically working to rule is not doing your job


----------



## liaconn

The point being made by another poster was that he doesn't bother with what's in his contract, he just 'does his job'. I suppose then, you could say that normally civil servants 'do their job' and more.


----------



## Purple

thedaras said:


> Like your thinking purple..
> 
> It seems that the contracts must now be to infinity and beyond with the terms and conditions ie;get up from your chair,walk ten feet,pick up the phone ,talk,answer etc etc.
> However you can be absolutely guaranteed that the unions would find a loophole like, The phone isn't a black one, I was at another desk at the time and thats more than ten feet etc...



I was just asking a question.


----------



## boris

thedaras said:


> Which is why, the Public/civil service need contracts that mention every movement they may need to do in the course of their job,as I said contracts that mention all they should do that go to infinity and beyond.


 

They do.  They are called "Role Profile Form" and they have been there for several years as part of PMDS.  All the staff are doing is sticking to them.


----------



## BONDGIRL

Off point BUT HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP

I cant find my passport.. I recently had a lot of house renovation and yes out of all of our passports I cant find mine and due to travel on the 13th April..

Now do you think I have a chance of getting this and will I send VIA An Post today or queue up?


----------



## Howitzer

I have just one question.

If CPSU members are now not doing all the other non work related work items: closing counters for half a day a week, not rushing through requests from Ministers, etc, well why is there a backlog of passport applications?

With all the time freed up surely any backlog would be worked through lickety split. (I'd accept the published 45K figure is nonsense as there's always some "backlog" on a list based system). What are they now doing with their time?


----------



## Purple

The back-log is due to the work to rule/go slow by staff at the processing centre (according to Blairing Horn on the radio this morning).


----------



## Bill Struth

Howitzer said:


> I have just one question.
> 
> If CPSU members are now not doing all the other non work related work items: closing counters for half a day a week, not rushing through requests from Ministers, etc, well why is there a backlog of passport applications?
> 
> With all the time freed up surely any baklog would be worked through lickety split. (I'd accept the published 45K figure is nonsense as there's always some "backlog" on a list based system). *What are they now doing with their time?*


_Plotting the downfall of the country_ © Daily Mail


----------



## thedaras

boris said:


> They do.  They are called "Role Profile Form" and they have been there for several years as part of PMDS.  All the staff are doing is sticking to them.


Thanks for clearing that up.

Why in a "role profile form",is answering the phone and dealing with customers not in it?

If not why is it not in it?

I would really like someone to answer that!


----------



## BONDGIRL

anyone?!!!


----------



## SteveW9

Why would anybody book a holiday without having a passport, which a lot of the people queuing have done?  Seems a bit crazy to me


----------



## Bill Struth

thedaras said:


> Thanks for clearing that up.
> 
> *Why in a "role profile form",is answering the phone and dealing with customers not in it?*
> 
> If not why is it not in it?
> 
> I would really like someone to answer that!


I take it that you are referring to the closing of counters and non-answering of phones. This action does not form part of work-to-rule. It is seperate ongoing industrial action. That is why the department can threaten non-payment for periods of closure.


----------



## Shawady

BONDGIRL said:


> Off point BUT HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP
> 
> I cant find my passport.. I recently had a lot of house renovation and yes out of all of our passports I cant find mine and due to travel on the 13th April..
> 
> Now do you think I have a chance of getting this and will I send VIA An Post today or queue up?


 
The turnaround time of 10 days is now supposed to 18-20 days , so I would be concerned if I was you, especially with the Easter break coming up.

We are actually travelling on the 25th of April and only realised one of the kids passports is out of date next month so we sent it by post today. It gives us 23 days but I'm still a bit worried.


----------



## thedaras

Bill Struth said:


> I take it that you are referring to the closing of counters and non-answering of phones. This action does not form part of [work-to-rule. It is seperate ongoing industrial action. That is why the department can threaten non-payment for periods of closure.



Ok, so what are the staff doing or not doing to implement the work to rule?

What is the "separate ongoing industrial action"about.?


----------



## boris

That is it in a nutshell. The CPSU have balloted their members for industrial action that is going beyond the limits set down at present *by other unions*. My major fear at this time is that if they go ahead and dock pay and suspend personnel that the whole thing could go out of control.

I know from a friend of mine (who is a union official) that they have had a hard time holding back the union members who wanted to escalate action to the point of open revolt. The public service has been like a powder keg for a while due to the ongoing harassment and abuse they are getting and something to happen here could cause a massive knockon effect throughout the whole system.

Sorry for scaremongering but that is the truth.


----------



## DerKaiser

SteveW9 said:


> Why would anybody book a holiday without having a passport, which a lot of the people queuing have done? Seems a bit crazy to me


 
A lot of people book holidays more than 6 months in advance and will have to renew their passport by the time the holiday comes round.


----------



## BONDGIRL

Well I booked this trip months ago and had a passport!  But now I can't seem to find the bloody thing, what a nightmare! I will have to go into their office 2moro so, wish me luck!


----------



## Bill Struth

thedaras said:


> Ok, so what are the staff doing or not doing to implement the work to rule?


 
Presumably sticking rigidly to the duties listed in their role profile.



thedaras said:


> What is the "separate ongoing industrial action"about.?


It forms part of the campaign against pay cuts as well. Different departments on different days implement morning counter closures then afternoon phone bans.


----------



## MelF

thedaras said:


> Why would customers do it?
> Would be more advantages to the staff


 
Yep, sounds a bit too coincidental to me. if members of the public are sitting in and tying themselves to chairs (via RTE one news) then evacuation is a handy way to get rid of them isn't it?


----------



## shnaek

Looking at the exact terms of a contract is just childish and belligerent. And it is totally unhelpful and unproductive. My job is to develop software. I do what it takes to get the job done. I don't look to see if I have to provide a certain amount of lines of code per day. I don't look to see if I have to answer the phone. I don't look to see if a certain standard of computer must be provided. I simply get on with the job my boss asks me to do. It is because I am a responsible adult that I behave in this manner.


----------



## Bill Struth

MelF said:


> Yep, sounds a bit too coincidental to me. if members of the public are sitting in and tying themselves to chairs (via RTE one news) then evacuation is a handy way to get rid of them isn't it?


 Jaysis, so we're terrorists now as well?


----------



## thedaras

Well said shnaek..
Apparently though it would appear that this is exactly what is called for in all future contracts..


----------



## thedaras

Bill Struth said:


> Jaysis, so we're terrorists now as well?



Bill Struth, who  is "we"?


----------



## Bill Struth

thedaras said:


> Bill Struth, who is "we"?


 We Civil Servants!


----------



## Firefly

Bill Struth said:


> We Civil Servants!


 
Get back to work


----------



## thedaras

Bill Struth... I think its only fair if we show our" colours",when posting?
Firefly;You have to "work " in the first place ,to get back to it.


----------



## Bill Struth

Firefly said:


> Get back to work


Right on cue!


thedaras said:


> Bill Struth... I think its only fair if we show our" colours",when posting?


Fair enough, what do you work at? 


thedaras said:


> Firefly;You have to "work " in the first place ,to get back to it.


Do you write all your own stuff? That's gas.


----------



## Latrade

thedaras said:


> Bill Struth... I think its only fair if we show our" colours",when posting?
> Firefly;You have to "work " in the first place ,to get back to it.


 
Seriously, there's plenty on here who've been honest in the past about where they work when speaking up on behalf of the PS/CS, I see no reason to make an issue or to get personal against them.


----------



## thedaras

Bill Struth; I was a public servant,but left.This was because I could not stand the millitant stance a lot of the workers and union reps would take at the drop of a hat,,the dossing ,the getting away with as much as possible, the consistent looking for trouble  attitudes.

I think a lot of the staff needed to do a personal development course to build up their self esteem,as in my experience its those who don't think a lot of themselves who cause the most trouble.
I'm a psychologist.


It is well documented on this site,about my time in the public service.


----------



## Bill Struth

thedaras said:


> I'm a psychologist.


What's the wink for?


----------



## thedaras

Its psychological ,Im messing with your mind.


----------



## Bill Struth

thedaras said:


> Its psychological ,Im messing with your mind.


Right you are Frasier!


----------



## liaconn

shnaek said:


> Looking at the exact terms of a contract is just childish and belligerent. And it is totally unhelpful and unproductive. My job is to develop software. I do what it takes to get the job done. I don't look to see if I have to provide a certain amount of lines of code per day. I don't look to see if I have to answer the phone. I don't look to see if a certain standard of computer must be provided. I simply get on with the job my boss asks me to do. It is because I am a responsible adult that I behave in this manner.


 
You don't get it. That is also the normal modus operandus of Civil Servants. They are now making a point by sticking rigidly to their role profiles. It is a complete departure from normal service and is being done to make a point. Why would you have a work to rule that's not going to have any impact.


----------



## liaconn

thedaras said:


> Firefly;You have to "work " in the first place ,to get back to it.


 

How original.


----------



## thedaras

Ok Liaconn,
I will change that statement to ; You have to be employed to get back to work.

Happy?


----------



## DB74

liaconn said:


> You don't get it. That is also the normal modus operandus of Civil Servants. They are now making a point by sticking rigidly to their role profiles. It is a complete departure from normal service and *is being done to make a point*. Why would you have a work to rule that's not going to have any impact.


 
What point is that exactly?


----------



## Caveat

I think, perhaps without them realising, their 'point' may be backfiring somewhat.  

Has it not occurred to them that most non PS/CS employees work way outside of their supposed remit all the time?

Many of these people seem to think if not for the favours they do and how they go out of their way that nothing would get done.  Which in itself begs the question of a complete revision of what their roles should entail - I'd be surprised if this wasn't a major aspect of the new public service body.

I've mentioned it before but what if private sector suppliers/customers implemented their own WTR?  We do the public sector loads of favours as it is. Maybe we shouldn't bother. Maybe I'll demand my rights as a taxpaying citizen and kick up a huge fuss every time I need to avail of public 'services'.  I'm paying for it - I'll make them do all the work and run around for me. They are servants after all.  I'll report anyone who looks at me crooked.

Does that sound fair?


----------



## Purple

...I agree Caveat, and what about my point on custom and practice?


----------



## csirl

I dont accept that answering phones and not manning counters is not part of their job descriptions? These are clerical officers who are the "general operatives" of the civil service. Their terms and conditions are quite broad and extend to any type of admin or customer service work.


----------



## thedaras

Would anyone like to do the maths on the following?

Firstly we need  confirmation or a guess as to how many  passports have been processed each day since the work to rule ?

A backlog of 45000 passports ,over ten weeks of work to rule.Thats 50 days.

Add on the ones which have been processed.

How many a day does it work out at?

How many an hour does it work out at?

Divide this by the number of staff employed by the passport office.

It would be an interesting exercise to see how productive they really are,and if they are,well fair play to them.


----------



## StevieC

thedaras said:


> Would anyone like to do the maths on the following?
> 
> Firstly we need confirmation or a guess as to how many passports have been processed each day since the work to rule ?
> 
> A backlog of 45000 passports ,over ten weeks of work to rule.Thats 50 days.
> 
> Add on the ones which have been processed.
> 
> How many a day does it work out at?
> 
> How many an hour does it work out at?
> 
> Divide this by the number of staff employed by the passport office.
> 
> It would be an interesting exercise to see how productive they really are,and if they are,well fair play to them.


 
Regardless it would be cheaper to outsource to India.

Cheap shot aside, it doesnt matter if they are the most efficient clerical workers in the world, if there isnt money to pay them extra, then there isnt money to pay them extra. The whole country is in the same boat, they just are refusing to help with the buckets to stop us sinking.


----------



## StevieC

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0323/pay.html

A ray of sanity at last.


----------



## RonanC

StevieC said:


> if there isnt money to pay them extra, then there isnt money to pay them extra. The whole country is in the same boat


 
yet those civil servants at the top (assistant secretary generals and sec gen's) had their pay cut's "cut" (one of the reasons behind the industrial action) and Anglo Irish Bank can ask for €6bn... 

This country has money, just not for the lower paid or for those who need it most!


----------



## thedaras

Id say ,watch that space.
This was taken from the article you mention;

*"It also proposes more proactive measures to manage queues and prioritise those with immediate travel needs.".*

I might interpret that as, they will prioritize those who will travel the within the next week,and will manage queues by staying at their counters.

I hate to be cynical but ,they may have a different view,ie;

They would deal with those traveling within a couple of days,and manage queues by allowing only the amount they are prepared to deal with into the office and then close the doors.
I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Caveat

Purple said:


> ...I agree Caveat, and what about my point on custom and practice?



Hadn't noticed that earlier - yes totally agree.


----------



## becky

boris said:


> The CPSU have balloted their members for industrial action that is going beyond the limits set down at present *by other unions*. My major fear at this time is that if they go ahead and dock pay and suspend personnel that the whole thing could go out of control.
> 
> I know from a friend of mine (who is a union official) that they have had a hard time holding back the union members who wanted to escalate action to the point of open revolt.


 
I agree. My boss has the ear of one the HSE 'employers' (the fella in the room with the unions) and various union officals. Her take on it is the Civil Service is the one pushing for all out strikes while health is resigned to the cutbaks.  As unions they have to appear to be reading for the same book.

That's the impression I get here myself. I've resigned myself to the fact my pay is cut by €100 a week. I fully expect another one in the next budget and haven't thought beyond that.

So we have to so what Sean McGrath DHR tells us. Do more with less.


----------



## thedaras

Did anyone hear the guy from the passport office on drivetime a few minutes ago?

He said he just cant  understand why people book their holidays without having their passport!!
This is an idiotic statement.

There are several reasons why I say this ,they are as follows.


Is there a rule that says I must have a passport before I book my holiday?

What if I cant afford to buy my passport at the time of booking my holiday?There may be families of four,five six etc and passports are very expensive.

People are being cautious and are not booking too far in advance in case the travel agents goes belly up.

If I book my holiday two,three four months in advance,I do not see any reason why I could not get a passport in this time frame,or even ten days as per the passport postal service.

It is absolutely none of his business when I get my passport!

The logical conclusion is that everyone in the country ,man woman and child should have an up to date passport,in case ,God forbid they happen to win/book/be treated and or buy a holiday.


----------



## Howitzer

thedaras said:


> Did anyone hear the guy from the passport office on drivetime a few minutes ago?
> 
> He said he just cant understand why people book their holidays without having their passport!!
> This is an idiotic statement.
> 
> There are several reasons why I say this ,they are as follows.
> 
> 
> Is there a rule that says I must have a passport before I book my holiday?
> 
> What if I cant afford to buy my passport at the time of booking my holiday?There may be families of four,five six etc and passports are very expensive.
> 
> People are being cautious and are not booking too far in advance in case the travel agents goes belly up.
> 
> If I book my holiday two,three four months in advance,I do not see any reason why I could not get a passport in this time frame,or even ten days as per the passport postal service.
> 
> It is absolutely none of his business when I get my passport!
> 
> The logical conclusion is that everyone in the country ,man woman and child should have an up to date passport,in case ,God forbid they happen to win/book/be treated and or buy a holiday.


Expect it to come up on Winning Streak soon. 

"Oh well done Biddy. You've won an all expenses paid trip to the Carribean."

"Fantastic. Only, well, my passport expires in a couple of months. That won't be a problem will it?"

"You dozzy bint!"


----------



## StevieC

RonanC said:


> yet those civil servants at the top (assistant secretary generals and sec gen's) had their pay cut's "cut" (one of the reasons behind the industrial action) and Anglo Irish Bank can ask for €6bn...
> 
> This country has money, just not for the lower paid or for those who need it most!


 
The country doesnt have money, we are borrowing to finance current expenditure at the moment. Unless you believe in ostrich economics, we have to pay those borrowings back at some point. The more borrowings, the more interest we have to pay on our national debt, which means even less money for public sector wages/services.

I dont agree with the higher paid civil servants getting a cut in their cut (they would have had a 23% cut apparently if they hadnt cut the cut due to some crap about bonuses, but it was still wrong) but people have to wake up and realise that we cant afford the wages/pensions that everyone wants.


----------



## Complainer

becky said:


> As unions they have to appear to be reading for the same book.


Different unions frequently have different positions on IR matters. In the case, it is the CPSU taking the mandate from their own members taking industrial action. They don't 'have to appear to be reading for the same book'.


----------



## RonanC

StevieC said:


> Unless you believe in ostrich economics, we have to pay those borrowings back at some point.



No I believe in Real Life Economics... We dont have any money, well then Anglo can go and sing for their money, so can AIB and BOI. They should not be given another single cent and they should be hit with a Banking Tax to pay us all back. And Senior Public Servant should take the maximum hit with low paid staff being protected

But... Fianna Fail Economics will mean that Anglo will get the €6bn they ask for, developers will be bailed out, those who caused this mess will get away with it. But pity about the low paid and those who have lost their jobs because sorry lads we have no money for you guys...


----------



## Complainer

RonanC said:


> No I believe in Real Life Economics... We dont have any money, well then Anglo can go and sing for their money, so can AIB and BOI. They should not be given another single cent and they should be hit with a Banking Tax to pay us all back. And Senior Public Servant should take the maximum hit with low paid staff being protected
> 
> But... Fianna Fail Economics will mean that Anglo will get the €6bn they ask for, developers will be bailed out, those who caused this mess will get away with it. But pity about the low paid and those who have lost their jobs because sorry lads we have no money for you guys...


Don't forget to mention the deflationary effect of the cuts driving us deeper and deeper into recession;

http://www.progressive-economy.ie/2010/03/economically-damaging-and-fiscally.html


----------



## StevieC

RonanC said:


> No I believe in Real Life Economics... We dont have any money, well then Anglo can go and sing for their money, so can AIB and BOI. They should not be given another single cent and they should be hit with a Banking Tax to pay us all back. And Senior Public Servant should take the maximum hit with low paid staff being protected
> 
> But... Fianna Fail Economics will mean that Anglo will get the €6bn they ask for, developers will be bailed out, those who caused this mess will get away with it. But pity about the low paid and those who have lost their jobs because sorry lads we have no money for you guys...


 
If you really believed in real life economics you would realise that the ordinary people and lower paid all have bank accounts and savings in Anglo, AIB and BOI. If the banks were allowed to go bust then the lower paid workers savings would be wiped out, the cost of the bail out is less than allowing all these banks to fail unless you want to wipe out the savings of the general public and place all businesses with an overdraft facility in serious financial trouble if they couldnt set up alternative arrangements elsewhere. Even if you guaranteed all Irish peoples/businesses accounts and said tough luck to all foreign depositors, that causes other problems, just look at Iceland. I agree that a bank tax is necessary in the future, getting shares in half dead banks isnt my idea of payment. 

Its not about FF, FG, Labour or any other political flag you want to fly under, regardless of whether you disagree with FF, the other parties solutions to the banking problem would cost the taxpayer arguably just as much. 

29 developers dead by suicide in the last 2 years, dont try to say they have got off scot free to be honest. Like it or not we (even the lower paid racked up large credit card debt) got ourselves into a mess and the guy with the big stick to stop it happening (the former head of the Financial Regulator) was asleep at the wheel.


----------



## Complainer

StevieC said:


> 29 developers dead by suicide in the last 2 years, dont try to say they have got off scot free to be honest.


Is it only suicides of developers that matters? What about the 400 suicides each year recently? Might be interesting to see how many of these were related to financial pressures arising from climbing/crashing house prices etc.


----------



## Birroc

StevieC said:


> The country doesnt have money, we are borrowing to finance current expenditure at the moment. Unless you believe in ostrich economics, we have to pay those borrowings back at some point. The more borrowings, the more interest we have to pay on our national debt, which means even less money for public sector wages/services.


 
Well put!


----------



## StevieC

Complainer said:


> Is it only suicides of developers that matters? What about the 400 suicides each year recently? Might be interesting to see how many of these were related to financial pressures arising from climbing/crashing house prices etc.


 
Of course its not only them that matters. I was simply pointing out that developers have not gotten off scot free as was being implied. Every suicide is a tragedy, I wasnt in any way trying to diminish other deaths.


----------



## annet

Anybody see the stark comparison between what is and not acceptable here.  Persons waiting for their passports have had to queue from Molesworth Street down to Kildare Street and tempers flare to the point of sit in's, because applicants dont receive passports in a timely period or when the office said they would. 

Now compare that scenario to the growing number of social welfare recipients who for years have had to join winding queues outside social welfare offices and local post offices to collect their payments, and coupled with that the excessive timeframe it takes the Department to even process claims.  

I can never understand why these people dont mobilize to be the next point of public protest.


----------



## thedaras

Annet,I think its because those who are claiming social welfare feel so deflated.

I have said and will continue to say that it is wrong that anyone should have to queue on the streets for a payment they are entitled to.

I despair when camera crews decide to film them.

There were people on the joe duffy show,complaining about the treatment they received when trying to get social welfare...but I never heard anymore after that.


----------



## annet

thedaras said:


> Annet,I think its because those who are claiming social welfare feel so deflated.
> 
> I have said and will continue to say that it is wrong that anyone should have to queue on the streets for a payment they are entitled to.
> 
> I despair when camera crews decide to film them.
> 
> There were people on the joe duffy show,complaining about the treatment they received when trying to get social welfare...but I never heard anymore after that.


 
I agree totally, it must be so demoralizing to have to queue on a street or outside offices, let alone having film crews filming lenghty dole queues (the one they continuously seem to re-use is the one in Cork I think).  Persons who are unemployed are voiceless and I think it may also comes down to societal attitudes of stigma.  Of course, if persons do complain they may fear that there may be real or perceived ramifications from their actions where they could have to wait even longer periods for their claims to be processed or even have their claims denied. 

I also think our knowledge of rights is on a completely different plain to how politicians and some public sector workers understand rights - to some of these people welfare claimants forgo all rights even civil.


----------



## Deiseblue

What a cracking time for Anglo Irish Bank to reveal pay increases for 60 employees , 40 here and 20 in the UK.

That will go a long way to diffuse differences at the current Government/Union discussions.


----------



## darag

Deiseblue said:


> What a cracking time for Anglo Irish Bank to reveal pay increases for 60 employees , 40 here and 20 in the UK.
> 
> That will go a long way to diffuse differences at the current Government/Union discussions.


Anglo is now a semi-state and so it's workers are protected from market realities.  If Anglo had been cut loose and left to it's own devices it would have gone bust a year and a half ago and not only would there have been no pay increases, there would be no jobs in Anglo.


----------



## liaconn

DB74 said:


> What point is that exactly?


 
That the way in which pay cuts were implemented was unfair and that low paid civil servants cannot afford to have Govt coming back to them time and time again to save money.


----------



## liaconn

Caveat said:


> I think, perhaps without them realising, their 'point' may be backfiring somewhat.
> 
> Has it not occurred to them that most non PS/CS employees work way outside of their supposed remit all the time?
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> So do most PS/CS employees. As other people have said, work to rules at times of dispute is not confined to the Public Sector.


----------



## VOR

becky said:


> Nothing illegal if they follow a process like this. Firing isn't an option as ee's are protected under the Industrial Relations Act when on industrial action. Docking pay is the logical option.


 
Can I just ask what is the role of the passport office if not to issue passports? I accept there may be limited instances where their expertise would be required such as the recent Israeli scandal. But, that aside, the task of those sitting at the counter must be to take applications for and issue passports to the general public. 



Latrade said:


> It is but you can't dock wages with a legitimate WTR because the employees are working to exact specifications of their contract of employment. In theory, therefore, they aren't in breach of the contract and aren't open to docking of wages or any form of action against them.
> 
> The only avenue would be if there is a specific link in the contract and pay to certain performance criteria and standards, say operating standards. These would set the specifics on the duties of certain roles and could be seen (depending on the specifics of the contracts) as part of their contract of employment.
> 
> However, if these don't exist and the duties have never been formalised, there is nothing illegal with the WTR and nothing that is a breach of contract.


 
So is it actually possible that the contracts are so rubbish that they do not include an all encompassing "serving the public/republic/minister" condition. 
I am genuinely curious about this. I mean, when you start in the passport office working on the counter what do you _think_ your job will be? 

Also, is it only a matter of time before somebody (nuts, no doubt) decides to take a case on the basis of the freedom of movement as the Republic has refused to issue them a passport and allow them to leave this island?


----------



## Caveat

liaconn said:


> So do most PS/CS employees.


 
So what? That's my point. Everyone does. It's only the PS/CS that seem to make a big deal out of it. I think it's a fairly useless form of protest TBH. To the public, it just reinforces the perception of jobsworthism and pettiness thought to be rife within the public sector. In this particular case many inconvenienced members of the public too. They'll just hate them for it and by extension, the wider public service will also bear the brunt of increased general disgruntlement.



> As other people have said, work to rules at times of dispute is not confined to the Public Sector.


 
Maybe not confined to it, but they pretty much have the monopoly on it.


----------



## Firefly

Nice lateral thinking for a councillor in this morning's Irish Times. 

Madam, – Perhaps instead of closing offices and inconveniencing citizens, the public service unions might consider opening their offices and giving the public a full service, but refuse to take in the cash or payments for such services? I suspect that might get them more public backing and a speedier response from Government. – Yours, etc,
Cllr DERMOT LACEY,
Beech Hill Drive,
Donnybrook,
Dublin 4.


----------



## Shawady

Firefly said:


> Nice lateral thinking for a councillor in this morning's Irish Times.
> 
> Madam, – Perhaps instead of closing offices and inconveniencing citizens, the public service unions might consider opening their offices and giving the public a full service, but refuse to take in the cash or payments for such services? I suspect that might get them more public backing and a speedier response from Government. – Yours, etc,
> Cllr DERMOT LACEY,
> Beech Hill Drive,
> Donnybrook,
> Dublin 4.


 

Didn't Dublin Bus do something like this a couple of years ago by not accept bus fares from passengers.
Can't see it happen though as collecting the money would be part of their procedure and would be easy to prove that an employee was not doing their job.


----------



## shnaek

liaconn said:


> So do most PS/CS employees. As other people have said, work to rules at times of dispute is not confined to the Public Sector.



Where has this happened in the private sector? Does anyone have an example? I am pretty sure I'd be fired if I took such an attitude in work. Not that I would take this attitude in any case, as I have pride in my work.


----------



## VOR

shnaek said:


> Where has this happened in the private sector? Does anyone have an example?


 
I am almost certain that workers in Element 6 Shannon threatened this as well as voting for an all-out strike. The CEO warned that any such action would lead to more job losses. 



> All of us working here in Shannon should show that we can agree on a plan that will sustain jobs here. Clearly, anything which disrupts operations can have no positive effect whatsoever.
> 
> "Again, I urge all involved to work together to save jobs, not take actions that can only endanger them," he said.
> 
> After staff were persuaded from staging a sit-in in recent days, Mr Sullivan also warned that any disruption to production would only harden the resolve of the Element Six executive to force through the original plan with the loss of 370 jobs.
> 
> Unions have also rejected a claim from management over an outbreak of "blue flu" among Element Six workers, where there has been an alleged rise in the number of uncertified sick days taken by staff


 
I wonder when we will hear Brian saying anything remotely as honest and forthright as the above?


----------



## carpedeum

shnaek said:


> Where has this happened in the private sector? Does anyone have an example? I am pretty sure I'd be fired if I took such an attitude in work. Not that I would take this attitude in any case, as I have pride in my work.



Totally agree. Perhaps, we need to start a debate on outsourcing certain public service tasks to the private sector? Security concerns are easy to overcome.

One major Dublin hospital is already looking at outsourcing portering, catering and other duties and not only for cost effectiveness. The employees are becoming impossible to manage and are not carrying out duties efficiently or properly. There are many other possibilities e.g. Laboratory testing, teacher appraisals and inspections, fire and ambulance services etc.

There have been basic management falures in the Passport Office too. How did the backlog of 40,000 evolve? Why were two out of three essential printers allowed remain unrepaired and not replaced? Where was the maintenance contract with SLA for this hardware? Is there a basic business continuity plan? These would be not lacking in the private sector?


----------



## MANTO

Shawady said:


> Didn't Dublin Bus do something like this a couple of years ago by not accept bus fares from passengers.
> Can't see it happen though as collecting the money would be part of their procedure and would be easy to prove that an employee was not doing their job.


 
But wait, if its part of the procedure to collect the money how can the issuing of passports to customers also not be part, would you hand over the fee at the counter and walk away without your passport? 

They have really shot themselves in the foot on this one. Take your anger out on the Government - not the public who you want to back you up.


----------



## VOR

MANTO said:


> But wait, if its part of the procedure to collect the money how can the issuing of passports to customers also not be part


 
+1 
Thats what I am trying to get my head around. You hardly start work on the counter thinking your job is working as a diplomat combatting global nuclear proliferation.


----------



## Purple

MANTO said:


> Take your anger out on the Government - not the public who you want to back you up.


 Who wants to back them up? While I feel sorry for anyone who has their pay cut the fact is that the government are 100% right to cut it. Any rowing back now would be a disaster.


----------



## RonanC

Protective Strike Notice has been served on the Department of Foreign Affairs by the CPSU. 

If the staff go on an all out strike, which is now likely, then no passports at all will be issued. Is that what people now want? Will they continue to bash public servants and the lower paid ones in particular?


----------



## Shawady

MANTO said:


> But wait, if its part of the procedure to collect the money how can the issuing of passports to customers also not be part, would you hand over the fee at the counter and walk away without your passport?


 
I'm not in anyway defending their action. I just assume that on the afternoons that they are not issuing passports they are probably saying they are doing other duties (non-front desk duties), and this is how it is being explained as a work to rule. If they did not collect money it would be easier to prove someone did not follow the correct procedure.
Believe me, as someone that has a passport application in I would not complain if I was not charged.


----------



## Caveat

RonanC said:


> If the staff go on an all out strike, which is now likely, then no passports at all will be issued. Is that what people now want? Will they continue to bash public servants ...


 
 Of course - much more so if anything?!


----------



## RonanC

Caveat said:


> Of course - much more so if anything?!


 
So you dont want any passports issued ?


----------



## VOR

I don't see how this is bashing. An all out strike means the unions will pay them for not doing their job as opposed to the government paying them for not doing their job. I have no issue with the stike as they are entitled to do this. Best of luck to them. 

As it stands passports are not getting issued anyway but the staff are getting paid.


----------



## Caveat

Hang on Ronan - what are you saying?

People are complaining because of the lack of service and basically if they don't shut up there will be an all out strike and see how you like that and maybe you'll stop complaining then?

Is that it?
That's what it sounds like you're saying.

Incredible. People bang on about the right to protest but apparently nobody has the right to complain then?


----------



## RonanC

VOR said:


> I don't see how this is bashing. An all out strike means the unions will pay them for not doing their job as opposed to the government paying them for not doing their job. I have no issue with the stike as they are entitled to do this. Best of luck to them.
> 
> As it stands passports are not getting issued anyway but the staff are getting paid.


 
So you think when the counters are closed they are all sitting around drinking tea and coffee and laughing at the rest of us?

I can assure you that this does not happen.


----------



## DB74

RonanC said:


> So you think when the counters are closed they are all sitting around drinking tea and coffee and laughing at the rest of us?
> 
> I can assure you that this does not happen.


 
1. How can you assure us?

2. What does happen?


----------



## VOR

RonanC said:


> So you think when the counters are closed they are all sitting around drinking tea and coffee and laughing at the rest of us?


 
I don't know what they are doing behind the counter. All I know is that they are not issuing passports and they are still getting paid. At least one of those will change if they strike.


----------



## MANTO

Purple said:


> Who wants to back them up? While I feel sorry for anyone who has their pay cut the fact is that the government are 100% right to cut it. Any rowing back now would be a disaster.


 
Oh i certainly dont, but i am sure they are looking for some 'support' from the public - and any (if any) they had, I am sure is gone out the window.


----------



## RonanC

Caveat said:


> Hang on Ronan - what are you saying?
> 
> People are complaining because of the lack of service and basically if they don't shut up there will be an all out strike and see how you like that and maybe you'll stop complaining then?
> 
> Is that it?
> That's what it sounds like you're saying.
> 
> Incredible. People bang on about the right to protest but apparently nobody has the right to complain then?


 
People have the right to complain and i'd be the first in line if I had an issue with a service I wasnt happy with. But it appears that people are angry that Industrial action is being carried out while the staff are still in receipt of full pay and why dont they not go on on strike. Well it looks like that will now happen and as a result not one passport will be issued. That is the point I am trying to make. 

Public servants will easily admit that the systems in place are not good enough, that modernisation must happen and that changes are needed across the board. But then asking some of the lower paid to accept an unfair and unjust paycut on top of previous levies imposed but the prospect of more pay cuts in the next budget and yet no career prospects and no promotions for those who do wish to make a difference. 

The public servants do not want to use the public as battering rams, this mandated Industrial Action and the work to rule is directed at the Government, and as a consequence of that it has caused some (and some will say, alot) of public services to be affected. Remember the industrial action has been ongoing for 7 weeks now and it took one day to cause near murder on our streets.  

Why are people bashing the clerical officers, the nurses, the teachers, the emergency staff instead of directing their anger at the ones who have caused this mess, *the Government.* Instead these people will vote in their local FF candidate in the next elections.. Typical Ireland.


----------



## liaconn

Caveat said:


> So what? That's my point. Everyone does. It's only the PS/CS that seem to make a big deal out of it. I think it's a fairly useless form of protest TBH. To the public, it just reinforces the perception of jobsworthism and pettiness thought to be rife within the public sector. In this particular case many inconvenienced members of the public too. They'll just hate them for it and by extension, the wider public service will also bear the brunt of increased general disgruntlement.


 

They are not 'making a big deal' of it. They are using it as a means to make a legitimate protest. It is the Private sector workers on here who are making the big deal about the fact that they go beyond their job descriptions, as if this is unique to them.  As for the public hating Civil Servants, most of us are now completely immune to that given the vitriol, lies and exaggerations we have been reading about ourselves for the past 18 months.  If you keep throwing stones at people, no matter what they do, saying 'if you keep doing that we'll throw stones at you' kinda loses its impact.


----------



## RonanC

DB74 said:


> 1. How can you assure us?
> 
> 2. What does happen?


 
I dont work in the Passport office, and can only comment on where I work. The rostered counter staff here would deal with applications as they come in over the counter and due to the cut backs in staff numbers imposed by this government are then processing those applications when they are not rostered on the counter. There is alot more work involved in processing official legal forms and documents than just taking money and giving a receipt.


----------



## Caveat

RonanC said:


> Why are people bashing the clerical officers, the nurses, the teachers, the emergency staff instead of directing their anger at the ones who have caused this mess, *the Government.*


 
Therefore public servants should direct *their* anger at the government then instead of affecting the public. There are always ways.



> Instead these people will vote in their local FF candidate in the next elections...


 
Strange comment since much of the Public/Civil services have traditionally voted FF.


----------



## Purple

RonanC said:


> Why are people bashing the clerical officers, the nurses, the teachers, the emergency staff instead of directing their anger at the ones who have caused this mess, *the Government.* Instead these people will vote in their local FF candidate in the next elections.. Typical Ireland.



People are directing their anger at those that caused the problem (Bertie etc) but they are also directing it at those who are trying to stop things getting better.

BTW from [broken link removed] _"One third of those surveyed said they would have more confidence in a Fine Gael/Labour Government reviving the Irish economy."_ so it seems that FF may not get the battering many expect.


----------



## RonanC

Caveat said:


> Therefore public servants should direct *their* anger at the governement then instead of affecting the public. There are always ways.


 
Given the fact that the majority of those represented by the CPSU are low paid public servants, the only avenue we have is to withdraw our labour and as a consequence the public will be affected. 

If you have any other suggestion i'd be delighted to hear them because I for one do not want to strike. I want to work, I want to provide a service, but I also want to be paid fairly and treated equally (reffering to my comments on the reversal of pay cuts for higher paid public servants)


----------



## Caveat

liaconn said:


> It is the Private sector workers on here who are making the big deal about the fact that they go beyond their job descriptions, as if this is unique to them.


 
You're actually making me laugh now.

What exactly was the WTR supposed to indicate then?


----------



## VOR

I am bowing out of this as it is becoming a "them and us". 

The post started due to members of the public standing up for what they believed in. The public servants were doing the same by withdrawing some services. Ultimately neither has won. In fact, it looks like the union will have to escalate to a strike. It may soon come down to how deep the unions pockets are. 

This cut to the PS is not a political football. I despair when I hear people attacking FF as if things will be all daisies and meadows if FG/Lab get in. It is naive in the extreme.

One way or another reform has to happen and not just for public sector employment. It is no differnet in the private sector. The only difference, to me anyway, is the perception of what needs to be happen and its urgency. (that was a "them & us" moment wan't it? Sorry!)


----------



## thedaras

Throwing in ,its a them versus us ,is a complete and utter red herring.

Any workers who behaved like this would be seen in exactly the same light by those who need the service.

I am dellighted to hear of a full out strike at the passport office lets see how long their stance will last when they are getting no money.

It will show us how the country and who the country is run by.The government or the unions.

If the government bow to the unions ,then we must get rid of FF.

The government need to take this on,once and for all.

I hope they do and I hope the workers and unions finally get the cop on needed.

If the government back down,they are history.

It has been a major own goal by the workers and the unions.


----------



## jhegarty

RonanC said:


> Given the fact that the majority of those represented by the CPSU are low paid public servants, the only avenue we have is to withdraw our labour and as a consequence the public will be affected.



You could go on strike.


----------



## Firefly

On the Air Traffic Controllers stike thread I asked if the government had a plan B. The issuing of passports is hardly rocket science. I wonder should the government introduce contingency plans to shift this backlog, say for example, send them across the water?


----------



## Caveat

I would think that there would be laws never mind genuine security concerns around one country processing the passport applications of another.


----------



## SteveW9

Caveat said:


> I would think that there would be laws never mind genuine security concerns around one country processing the passport applications of another.


 still probably do a better job than Ireland


----------



## Purple

Caveat said:


> I would think that there would be laws never mind genuine security concerns around one country processing the passport applications of another.



That's been covered


----------



## liaconn

Caveat said:


> You're actually making me laugh now.
> 
> What exactly was the WTR supposed to indicate then?


 
Oh for God's sake, Its A Work To Rule. In order to express their dissatisfaction they are working to the letter of their contract as opposed to the flexibility they normally offer. I seriously think you're trying to wind me up.


----------



## thedaras

RonanC said:


> So you dont want any passports issued ?



The quote above ,to me, sums up the attitude of some of the public service employees.

Its a "when did you stop beating your wife" question.

Its as if they are giving us a choice,either we hold up your passport ,or you get none at all,where in the private sector would you get that attitude and get away with it ?
Please enlighten me?

We are *entitled* to a passport.

I know this type of  quote is used by public service workers in depts where you may have had to ask an extra question or make a query or challange their attitudes.They come up with the line,do you want the form/call put through etc or not.

It shows us that they have so much confidence in not being reprimanded as
no where else would someone get away with this .

To use an example,say I went into a dry cleaners and they said to me as I went to collect my laundry, Do you want your clothes or not?..It is confrontational and aggressive.

I have seen it used in negotiations with unions,and it really shows real ignorance.


----------



## becky

jhegarty said:


> You could go on strike.


 
I think that's what he means.


----------



## RonanC

thedaras said:


> The quote above ,to me, sums up the attitude of some of the public service employees.


 
And you ignore the rest of my comments...


----------



## Caveat

Purple said:


> That's been covered


 
Thanks.

Great - why not then?



liaconn said:


> Oh for God's sake, Its A Work To Rule. In order to express their dissatisfaction they are working to the letter of their contract as opposed to the flexibility they normally offer.


 
Er, yes. 

So therefore, in contrast to _your_ claim that private sector workers are the ones making a big deal about going beyond their job descriptions, the whole concept of the WTR is the public sector doing precisely that in the first place!

They are saying "Look at us - this is all we really should be doing but in reality we do so much more and aren't appreciated" - are they not?


----------



## DublinTexas

Caveat said:


> I would think that there would be laws never mind genuine security concerns around one country processing the passport applications of another.



   The German Bundesdruckerei (which funny enough was in private ownership until about 1 year ago) has/had contracts to produce passports for other countries like Venezuela, Albania or Romania, as they were the 1st company to introduce the new 2nd generation ePassports for example.

  And if our public service goes on strike, maybe we could ask Israel to assist for a while, they seem to be able to do Irish passports too.

But I think this whole story brings up another point beside the previous public sector is unhappy discussion, why are we not joining the Schengen agreement? 

For years now people traveling from Ireland to their fellow EU countries are subjected to passport control. I can travel from Iceland (not even in the EU) through Switzerland (another non EU country) to Italy without showing my ID at any passport control but from Dublin to Amsterdam I have to show ID because we are not in Schengen. We could save money, time and feel rewarded for our bribed 2nd Yes to Lisbon if we just would join Schengen.


----------



## liaconn

Janey. Private Sector people on here were stating that, 'unlike' the Public Sector, they don't stick rigidly to their job description. I was stating that this is not actually  'unlike' the Public Sector when the public sector is working as normal. The reason they are sticking rigidly to them now is because they are on industrial action, so it is an _*exception*_ to the way they normally behave, not _*typical*_ of their normal attitude towards their job description.


----------



## jhegarty

DublinTexas said:


> why are we not joining the Schengen agreement?




I think it would mean us putting up a proper border with passport controls between here and the north.


----------



## Purple

jhegarty said:


> I think it would mean us putting up a proper border with passport controls between here and the north.



That would slow down the shoppers. Perfect!


----------



## thedaras

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonanC  
And you ignore the rest of my comments... 

The comment I quoted, was to show the attitude which I have seen at first hand.


----------



## DB74

Purple said:


> That would slow down the shoppers. Perfect!


 
Then what would the passport office workers do on the strike days!


----------



## Cityliving

Dear passport office workers,

I get it. Your annoyed. Your conditions of work has changed and you`ve done your job well as you see it, possibly even for years, and you feel you should be left well enough alone. You prob dont get paid a huge salary and its a killer getting cuts.

We all get it. As in reality most of us are suffering (I have no job now myself). The thing is when I suffer, my family might suffer, my friends hear about it and then thats about it. 

You`re suffering and what you`re causing is suffering to many multiples of people - funerals, weddings, once in a lifetime holidays, jobs interviews, ill parents and family members, meeting your kids after months away working as no work for you here and so on.

There can be no excuse for what you are doing. You know in your hearts you wont get your money back as there is no money to give. You are just expressing anger that you feel and the shower around the corner. I express it too, over a pint and when I realise I have to emigrate from my home. 

I know its tough but its tough for everyone. If its so bad then just quit and let someone else do it for us, PLEASE.


----------



## Caveat

liaconn said:


> Janey. Private Sector people on here were stating that, 'unlike' the Public Sector, they don't stick rigidly to their job description.


 
Ah well that's a bit different then.


----------



## Bill Struth

DB74 said:


> Then what would the passport office workers do on the strike days!


 My sides.


----------



## DublinTexas

jhegarty said:


> I think it would mean us putting up a proper border with passport controls between here and the north.



   That is not really true, the Schengen agreement allows to maintain bilateral Agreements with neighbouring third countries for the purpose of implementing a local border traffic regime.

  We could join Schengen Travel Area, enforce the Schengen rules for people coming from outside the Schengen area and still have a bilateral agreement with the UK. In fact we already have permission from the other countries to join most of the Schengen agreement, we just never enacted them.

It’s time to make the decision if travel without passport to the UK (for Irish citizens) is more important than travel to the other EU/EEA countries without border controls.

And let’s face it, with the exception of land traffic between the north and south we effectively maintain a control of our borders. If you land at an airport you are subject to border control, even if you come from London. 

It’s just that the English don’t control you when you fly in from Ireland and treat you as a domestic flight. Ireland already treats you as foreign flight and controls it’s borders.

Let’s safe some money and reduce the border control to outside Schengen and redeploy the officers to some other area where they can are used.


----------



## darag

The problem is the Brits would have to agree with such a move DublinTexas, otherwise it would effectively mean them joining the Schengen area by proxy.


----------



## ajapale

Off topic posts and posts consisting of an entire quote of an earlier post (+1) have been deleted.




aj
moderator


----------



## Capt. Beaky

Do as Regan did with the Air Traffic Control strikers.


----------



## StevieC

hmm ideas that the passport office could implement that would annoy their employer but not affect the general public;

- cancel all the FF TD's passports (not sure how viable this is but could be looked into!), would certainly save money on junkets
- put all passport applications requested by TDs to the bottom of the 50,000 applications (this would surely annoy one government minister who i have read makes good use of the service)
- protest outside the minister for foreign affairs/transport house, possibly at all hours during the night for maximum inconvenience
- attend FF clinics and waste all the TDs clinic time by complaining about working conditions/pay cuts
- Spam politicians facebook pages (bit juvenile I know but it is annoying)

I am sure there are countless other things passport office workers could do on their own time to protest instead of annoying the rest of the nation.

At this point though I think the government will be criticised more if they back down than if they give in, so this action really is pointless. The unions have lost the general public and are on their own now, if they persist with a strike action I can see the government just looking elsewhere for passport provision and then the protesters will have lost not only their protest but possibly their jobs.


----------



## Mpsox

RonanC said:


> Given the fact that the majority of those represented by the CPSU are low paid public servants, the only avenue we have is to withdraw our labour and as a consequence the public will be affected.
> 
> If you have any other suggestion i'd be delighted to hear them because I for one do not want to strike. I want to work, I want to provide a service, but I also want to be paid fairly and treated equally (reffering to my comments on the reversal of pay cuts for higher paid public servants)


 
If things are so bad working in the public sector you could always resign and get a job somewhere else.

Oh crikey, I forgot, there are hardly any other jobs elsewhere as the 400000 people on the dole (many of whom I'm sure would love to be in your shoes at the minute ) know

If the issue is about being "treated equally", does that mean that if the paycuts at higher levels were reintroduced(BTW and in fairness, I do think they should), the CPSU would stop all actions? Or is that just a smokescreen?


----------



## Sunny

How can the union also justify blocking the recruitment of 50 temporary workers to deal with normal seasonal demand, never mind the backlog. And now they close social welfare counters. So much for social fairness and equality.  

The whole thing is stupid and has completely backfired on the CPSU. The Government is now in a stronger position than ever to drive through their agenda.


----------



## StevieC

+1 Sunny

Also what happened to not escalating the dispute while in talks with LRC. Clearly the social welfare counters is an escalation.


----------



## Shawady

Sunny said:


> The whole thing is stupid and has completely backfired on the CPSU.


 
It is not only the CPSU that will suffer. All other public servants will be affected.
If there is another pay cut this year there will be no sympathy, even though many public sector employees (in my area anyway) are going about the job in a professional manner.


----------



## Sunny

Shawady said:


> It is not only the CPSU that will suffer. All other public servants will be affected.
> If there is another pay cut this year there will be no sympathy, even though many public sector employees (in my area anyway) are going about the job in a professional manner.


 
I agree. The problem is that work to rule in the current economic climate just looks immature, pitiful and vindictive. The staff would have been better off announcing they are going on strike action for 1 day a week. Of course that doesn't suit because they want to in engage in industrial action while still getting paid.

By all accounts, the politicians are amazed at the public anger at the trade unions. Really was an own goal.


----------



## Complainer

Capt. Beaky said:


> Do as Regan did with the Air Traffic Control strikers.


You mean we should lie to them?


> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*A Reagan Letter to Robert Poli, PATCO (Oct. 20, 1980)*[/FONT]​
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Dear Mr. Poli:[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]     I have been briefed by members of my staff as to the deplorable state of our nation's air traffic control system.  They have told me that too few people working unreasonable hours with obsolete equipment has placed the nation's air travellers in unwarranted danger.  In an area so clearly related to public safety the Carter administration has failed to act responsibly.[/FONT]​
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]     You can rest assured that if I am elected President, I will take whatever steps are necessary to provide our air traffic controllers with the most modern equipment available and to adjust staff levels and work days so that they are commensurate with achieving a maximum degree of public safety....[/FONT]​
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]     I pledge to you that my administration will work very closely with you to bring about a spirit of cooperation between the President and the air traffic controllers.[/FONT]​ [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Sincerely,[/FONT]​
> [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Ronald Reagan[/FONT]​


----------



## thedaras

Look on the bright side , the CSPU have scored a major own goal.

The unions have been weakend.

The public/civil service performance is being highlighted to the public.

The militancy and stalemate of the unions has been brought to the fore.

We now will see a government who will have to be strong,and if not they will be very/even more exposed.

The unions are being seen in a very bad light by the public and maybe by the PS a,lso by disallowing them to do overtime (less money) by blocking the employment of the 50 temp staff ( so much for unions wanting people to get jobs).

The unions,it would appear have guided their members in the wrong direction.

The PS will see now that the unions are being way too militant.

The Thatcher won ,is slowly but surely dawning on all .

Look forward to seeing the union back down,and how they will do this.


----------



## Howitzer

Complainer said:


> You mean we should lie to them?


Nice. When people start eulogising Reagan and Thatcher you know we're in trouble. Do you have a link to the original?


----------



## Mpsox

Howitzer said:


> Nice. When people start eulogising Reagan and Thatcher you know we're in trouble. Do you have a link to the original?


 
In fairness to Reagan (and I can't believe I'm saying that), the controllers were breaking US Federal Law by striking.


----------



## Capt. Beaky

Complainer said:


> You mean we should lie to them?


If you don't remember, Google it. Then take whatever meaning you like from it.


----------



## DeeFox

I was listening to RTE radio this morning in the car and a representative from the CSPU was on and he was saying the passport office workers are very low paid and that they will go on strike unless the cuts are reversed.  He gave one example of a man who is earning €1600 per month and has a mortgage of €1400 per month.  
It was this man's choice to get the mortgage - I feel sorry for him but it annoys me when I hear this thrown out as a reason to go on strike.  I didn't buy because I couldn't afford it.  Surely they must realise that they will get very little public sympathy for this strike?


----------



## thedaras

I find that very hard to believe!

Are they saying that they managed perfectly well before the paycuts,with that size mortgage and what was left of his income?

Anyone stupid enough to get a morgage of 1400e leaving themselves with 200 e a month deserves what they get.

Even if this person was down by 400e a month ,which I doubt ,since the pay cuts  it would still only leave them with 600 e a month to live on.Bad decision.

I would imagine that the mortgage is a joint mortgage and in fact he is not left with just 200 e a month.

Even if it were true ,he could renegotiate with his bank.

Its these kind of outrageous claims that leave us finding anything they say,very hard to believe


----------



## Firefly

I think the unions know the government can't rollback the cuts as the money simply isn't there. The focus of these strikes IMO is to make it more difficult for the gov to introduce further cuts if they need to.


----------



## Caveat

DeeFox said:


> I was listening to RTE radio this morning in the car and a representative from the CSPU was on and he was saying the passport office workers are very low paid...


 
This makes me smile.

What exactly is "very low paid" and by what criteria? Can anyone confirm exactly what they earn? What's the bets it will not fall under "very low paid" anyway - whatever that is.

It might fall under "I want more" all right but that's a different story.

Everyone has a gripe and every gripe may appear legitimate until it is quantified.


----------



## RonanC

Caveat said:


> Can anyone confirm exactly what they earn?


----------



## Caveat

OK, but what do they fall under - clercial officer?


----------



## Howitzer

Caveat said:


> This makes me smile.
> 
> What exactly is "very low paid" and by what criteria? Can anyone confirm exactly what they earn? What's the bets it will not fall under "very low paid" anyway - whatever that is.
> 
> It might fall under "I want more" all right but that's a different story.
> 
> Everyone has a gripe and every gripe may appear legitimate until it is quantified.


The question was posed to Blair Horan on Matt Cooper and, apologies if my numbers aren't exactly right, but he said starting at 24K and going on to 37.5K after 18 years. There was no mention, or question, as to whether there were any extra payments or allowances.

24K is certainly low but not necessarilly low for the type of job. 37.5K isn't if the person is doing the exact same clerical job.

This isn't necessarily confined to the PS, but it's certainly more noticable, the notion of people not having any career progression and getting paid more. 

After 18 years working I'd like to be earning more than 37K but I'd also like to think I wasn't doing the same job as I was 18 years previously.


----------



## RonanC

counter staff are generally clerical officers. Some staff would be on pre 95 agreements, and some on post 95.

There are no allowances or extra payments (apart from overtime) that I am aware of. There are no bonuses apart from the agreed annual increments that are part of a contract of employment that are dependant on performance.


----------



## thedaras

Can you clarify what are the pre  and post 95 agreements.

I would look at this quite differently..the clerical officers can do overtime,and they can get annual increments.

Anyone who stays in the same position for 18 years is the type of person who has no ambition ..


----------



## RonanC

thedaras said:


> Can you clarify what are the pre and post 95 agreements.
> 
> I would look at this quite differently..the clerical officers can do overtime,and they can get annual increments.
> 
> Anyone who stays in the same position for 18 years is the type of person who has no ambition ..


 
Staff who were employed prior to 6th April 1995 are paid slightly differently to those employed on or after 6th April 1995. Staff employed after 1995 pay class a prsi. 

Clerical officers can do overtime, but they must pay income levy, pension levy and tax on this overtime. The Pension levy should not be applied to overtime as only basic wage is calculated for overall pension entitlements. 

I agree with you on your last point. But, promotions must be won, you have to sit interviews (like most places) and thats where the politics comes into play in my mind, you may be the most suited for the job, but if your from the wrong office your no good. Promotions are not earned on merit, something we have been asking for a long time. Some people are happy to stay doing what they do, its the exact same in the private sector. Some people do not want to take on the responsibility of management, financially its sometimes not worth it at all. 

Movement in the civil service is also another problem, especially in my department.


----------



## Purple

The reality is that, contrary to union propaganda, senior staff in the public sector are under paid (in comparison to the private sector) and lower-pay employees are over-paid in comparison to their counterparts in the private sector. I’m not saying that €24’000 a year is a high wage but it may well be higher than they’d get doing the same sort of job anywhere else.


----------



## thedaras

RonanC, you say Clerical officers can do overtime, but they must pay income levy, pension levy and tax on this overtime. ".

Well so what, we all do that!

You also say; "Promotions are not earned on merit, something we have been asking for a long time. *Some people are happy to stay doing what they do, its the exact same in the private sector. Some people do not want to take on the responsibility of management, financially its sometimes not worth it at all.".*

Exactly!! And guess what ,if they don't want to take the responsibility, then they stay on the same pay.

Promotions are as far as I have seen,given on seniority, but you will probably find the unions wouldn't have it any other way!


----------



## RonanC

thedaras said:


> RonanC, you say Clerical officers can do overtime, but they must pay income levy, pension levy and tax on this overtime. ".
> 
> Well so what, we all do that!


 
Only the public service pay pension levies though




thedaras said:


> You also say; "Promotions are not earned on merit, something we have been asking for a long time. *Some people are happy to stay doing what they do, its the exact same in the private sector. Some people do not want to take on the responsibility of management, financially its sometimes not worth it at all.".*
> 
> Exactly!! And guess what ,if they don't want to take the responsibility, then they stay on the same pay.


 
You say that they have no ambition - thats a very broad statement to make 



thedaras said:


> Promotions are as far as I have seen,given on seniority, but you will probably find the unions wouldn't have it any other way!


 
Promotions in the past were on seniority which in my view was and still to some extent is an unfair promotion system. The Union agreed on more merit based promotions but they have yet to surface. The majority of promotions in the public service would be open (to the public) or confined (to existing staff) competitions, and I think there were many more open competitions in recent years compared to confined ones.


----------



## thedaras

posted inadvertently.Apoligies


----------



## DonDub

I agree with Purple and Thedaras - the low pay argument is fundamentally flawed - the reality is that they are paid above market rates for the work they do. I'm confident that a private sector provider could process applications more efficiently and cost effectively than current staff.
We need to alter the power balance in this country by legislating to introduce barriers to prevent unions/employees holding the country to hostage. I don't buy the argument that unions are essential to protect employees - we now have a raft of national (and EU) legislation in place which underpins employee rights. Union actions/interventions typically damage competitiveness which in turn destroys jobs.


----------



## thedaras

If it requires lots of overtime to process  passports, why not increase the time needed /required to apply and get one? 
Too simple?


----------



## Welfarite

thedaras said:


> If it requires lots of overtime to process passports, why not increase the time needed /required to apply and get one?
> Too simple?


 This is a good point. Leaving aside the Public V Private tit fot tat that has risen his ungly head again (a debate that ahs only started since the recession bit), I have wondered over the past few days as to how much 'hardhip' the delay in issuing passports is causing really? queues autsied the office remind me of the panic queues to withdraw savngs from Northern rock a few years ago. No reporter has asked the question; 'why did you noy apply in reasonable time for your passport? The Passport site says as follows; ' *Apply early! It is recommended, if you live in Ireland, to use the Passport Express service which is available at most post offices. If you are not in a hurry for your passport you can apply by regular post but you should allow at least 4-6 weeks for return of your passport by this method. If you live abroad apply to your nearest Irish Mission. In general allow at least 4-6 weeks for the issue of your passport in such cases.' *Presumably this measn in ordinary times. I would love to have every person queieng asked when exactly they applied and what method they used.
aslo, the inconveneience of the 'Passport delays' should be conmpared to another department that is taking the eact same industrial actions; The dept of social welfare. Now if the saem delays in vital necessary weekly dole payments was happening, then that would really be a big issue. Why isn't that happening? There have been reports of one-day delays in issuing o cheques but that's all. what's the difference here?


----------



## Deiseblue

DonDub said:


> I agree with Purple and Thedaras - the low pay argument is fundamentally flawed - the reality is that they are paid above market rates for the work they do. I'm confident that a private sector provider could process applications more efficiently and cost effectively than current staff.
> We need to alter the power balance in this country by legislating to introduce barriers to prevent unions/employees holding the country to hostage. I don't buy the argument that unions are essential to protect employees - we now have a raft of national (and EU) legislation in place which underpins employee rights. Union actions/interventions typically damage competitiveness which in turn destroys jobs.


 
I agree that there is comprehensive legislation in place to protect employees rights , the introduction of such legislation was often done after consultation with unions or in many cases union driven.

However in cases like the current Public Sector impasse where employees feel that they have been unfairly treated by having pay cuts unilaterally imposed on them then no amount of the aforementioned legislation is going to enable them redress the situation - enter the unions !


----------



## thedaras

Welfarite; Perhaps I didn't make myself clear when I suggested that if overtime is needed to process passports,why not increase the time needed/required to apply for them.

My point is that at present this is not the case ,therefore people who apply are quite entitled to expect their passport to arrive on time.


----------



## shnaek

RonanC said:


> agreed annual increments that are part of a contract of employment that are dependant on performance.


So I guess they won't be getting any of those this year then ...


----------



## Shawady

DonDub said:


> the low pay argument is fundamentally flawed


 
The irony is that on some of the pay deals the lower paid received an extra 1 or 2%, yet when pay had to be cut their cut was less than middle to high earners. This means lower grades have done better in percentage terms in the pay deals than higher earners.
I think rather than all this 5% cut on first 30k, 10% on next 20K etc, they should have just cut all grades by the same percentage cut and probably extend it to public sector pensioners.
Certainly would have been easier to implement and in my opinion fairer.


----------



## DB74

Passport Office Staff get Standing Ovation at CPSU conference

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0326/pay.html


----------



## Bill Struth

DB74 said:


> Passport Office Staff get Standing Ovation at CPSU conference
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0326/pay.html


 Why shouldn't they? I'd be clapping too if I was there.


----------



## DB74

I didn't offer an opinion.


----------



## becky

Shawady said:


> The irony is that on some of the pay deals the lower paid received an extra 1 or 2%, yet when pay had to be cut their cut was less than middle to high earners. This means lower grades have done better in percentage terms in the pay deals than higher earners.
> I think rather than all this 5% cut on first 30k, 10% on next 20K etc, they should have just cut all grades by the same percentage cut and probably extend it to public sector pensioners.
> Certainly would have been easier to implement and in my opinion fairer.


 
I don't think so. I remember looking at the salary scales from Grade III to grade VII when benchmarking was being awarded. The percentage increase the grades got in the bechmarking incremented according to the grade. I don't have the old scales now but a grade III got something like 3% whereas a grade VII got 5%. After than the increases were the same be it 1 or 2% etc. 

Pensioners who retire from 2011 will have pension based on the lower scale.


----------



## Bill Struth

DB74 said:


> I didn't offer an opinion.


 My apologies.


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## Firefly

DB74 said:


> Passport Office Staff get Standing Ovation at CPSU conference
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0326/pay.html


 
How come these delegates weren't at work?  Looks like a lot of them from the photo..


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## Firefly

"....Addressing the conference, General Secretary Blair Horan apologised to members of the public affected by the industrial action.However, he said he would not apologise to anyone for the legitimate action they were taking."

I'm confused.


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## StevieC

I think the word is collateral damage Firefly. Hes sorry public are caught in crossfire as he sees it between them and the government. What he doesnt acknowledge is that if they get their way, public end up paying too.


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## Delboy

Firefly said:


> How come these delegates weren't at work?  Looks like a lot of them from the photo..



in the 'public' service, there's a lot of union meetings, overtime for travel to them etc which are all covered for by the taxpayers


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## Bill Struth

Delboy said:


> in the 'public' service, there's a lot of union meetings, *overtime for travel* to them etc which are all covered for by the taxpayers


They get a days leave to attend the conference, but overtime? Come on, stick to the facts.


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## Caveat

Maybe not overtime - but an allowance of some sort I'd venture?

Why, I have no idea.


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## thedaras

Oh My GOD.. they get a days leave to attend a conference!

How many of them get this ?

How many of those who got the days leave actually attended?

How was their work covered while they were on this days leave?


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## Bill Struth

Caveat said:


> Maybe not overtime - but an allowance of some sort I'd venture?
> 
> Why, I have no idea.


 A days leave is what they get, it seems to be a long standing arrangment with the dept of finance. Any allowance they get comes from the union. There was talk of the government withdrawing leave for union business because of the industrial action, but nothing concrete as yet.


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## Caveat

Uh oh.

So separating fact from fiction we now have at least two PS/CS weird perk types of leave utterly confirmed: Union conference & christmas shopping.

I wonder how many more there are?


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## Bill Struth

thedaras said:


> Oh My GOD.. they get a days leave to attend a conference!


Aye.


thedaras said:


> How many of them get this ?


All.


thedaras said:


> How many of those who got the days leave actually attended?


All


thedaras said:


> How was their work covered while they were on this days leave?


Due to vacant posts not being filled we're kinda used to covering for absent staff, so don't be getting yourself too upset! You're concern is appreciated though.


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## markpb

Caveat said:


> So separating fact from fiction we now have at least two PS/CS weird perk types of leave utterly confirmed: Union conference & christmas shopping. I wonder how many more there are?



Some semi-states had privilege days a few years ago. I was never clear on what they were for or how they worked.


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## becky

They do have to apply for this union leave and it has been refused in some cases.  Only shop stewards can apply for it - I can't for example.  If I want to attned the conference I can but it will come out of my own leave.  Which is fine cos I get loads.


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## Bill Struth

Caveat said:


> Uh oh.
> 
> So separating fact from fiction we now have at least two PS/CS weird perk types of leave utterly confirmed: Union conference & christmas shopping.
> 
> I wonder how many more there are?


Shocking isn't it?! I'm here 7 years and I haven't claimed a single minute for union business!

I take my half day shopping leave though! I like to look on it as my big fat christmas bonus!


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## Caveat

becky said:


> Which is fine cos *I get loads.*


 
Wow. Another admission!

Anything else you lot would like to get off your chests now that you're in the mood?


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## Shawady

becky said:


> I don't think so. I remember looking at the salary scales from Grade III to grade VII when benchmarking was being awarded. The percentage increase the grades got in the bechmarking incremented according to the grade. I don't have the old scales now but a grade III got something like 3% whereas a grade VII got 5%. After than the increases were the same be it 1 or 2% etc.
> 
> Pensioners who retire from 2011 will have pension based on the lower scale.


 
Becky, I was not refering to the benchmarking awards but the national pay deals for public and (some) private sector workers.
My point was that when the government had the money everyone got the same % pay increase, but now that they have to cut pay they are staggering the cuts. I think it would be fairer if everyone go the same percentage cut.

Alternatively , they could have reversed benchmarking but as the increases ranged from 2 to 25%, they would never do that.


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## Ron Burgundy

Don't forget the Passport Office will be closed next friday..........


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## Shawady

Ron Burgundy said:


> Don't forget the Passport Office will be closed next friday..........


 
What about the privilege day.............
Will they close Tuesday or Thursday?
Or skeleton crew on both days?


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## Ron Burgundy

Shawady said:


> What about the privilege day.............
> Will they close Tuesday or Thursday?
> Or skeleton crew on both days?


 
No Good Friday.......all government offices are closed as they are every year.

The other days i know nothing of..........BUT the privilege day can be taken any time from Holy Thursday for a month.....so not every one would take those days mentioned.


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## thedaras

Billstruth you say;





> Due to vacant posts not being filled we're kinda used to covering for absent staff, so don't be getting yourself too upset! You're concern is appreciated though.



I thought you were on a WTR?

Why then would you be covering absent staff?


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## Shawady

thedaras said:


> Billstruth you say;
> 
> I thought you were on a WTR?
> 
> Why then would you be covering absent staff?


 
I would say a lot of public sector workers are not following a strict WTR. I know we are not in our place.


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## thedaras

Regarding the rate of pay of low paid clerical officers;

Say If I work in a jam factory at 18 years of age and I put the jars in a box and put sellotape on the box and for this I get 25k a year,lots of days leave, a union that is militant, a pension to die for and I cant be sacked,

Then 18 years later at the age of 36 Im on the factory floor still putting  jars in a box and putting sellotape on the box as I have been for the last 18 years,why oh why would I expect to get any more that the original 25k ,(taking into account that 25k may be 36k ,18 years later.)

Also why should I get promoted ,ahead of someone who comes into the job and does a great job and moves onto putting the jam in the jars ,while I insist Im there the longest and I should get a promotion.


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## thedaras

Shawady said:


> I would say a lot of public sector workers are not following a strict WTR. I know we are not in our place.



In other words, the work to rule doesn't apply when its for your colleagues getting a day off?


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## Bill Struth

thedaras said:


> Billstruth you say;
> 
> I thought you were on a WTR?
> 
> Why then would you be covering absent staff?


Well you see the work that I do comes from a general 'pool' of work that the collective of clerical officers work from. The work still has to be done regardless of the amount of staff that we have.


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## Shawady

thedaras said:


> In other words, the work to rule doesn't apply when its for your colleagues getting a day off?


 
People are just doing their job the same way they always did. If someone was off and one of their duties had to be done urgently, it would be done.


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## Deiseblue

Same applies in the Private Sector , I always received special leave to attend Union conferences.

Indeed leave was also granted for training courses for union representatives.

Par for the course in unionised workplaces whether in the public or private sectors.


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## thedaras

So you can manage without the extra staff?

If they are just doing their job the same way they always did,what happens to the work that the people who are off at the conference are supposed to be doing?

It seems there is quite a lot of them there,  therefore theres a lot of work not being done,right?

I am genuinely asking this question as its quite alarming that so many can take time off ,leave so much work to be done,surely this will add to the backlog and call for more overtime?


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## thedaras

Deiseblue;

I cant imagine going into superquinn when most of the staff are on leave,nor would I imagine that they would allow this to happen,especialy if they were way behind on their orders.

According to Bill struth they all get this time off. How can a department manage if they all get this day off? do they close the office?

Another poster said its just the union reps who get the day off?


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## Bill Struth

thedaras said:


> Deiseblue;
> 
> I cant imagine going into superquinn when most of the staff are on leave,nor would I imagine that they would allow this to happen,especialy if they were way behind on their orders.
> 
> According to Bill struth they all get this time off. How can a department manage if they all get this day off? do they close the office?
> 
> Another poster said its just the union reps who get the day off?


You really do have a bee in your bonnet don't you? 

What I said was, the people at the conference get the day off. It amounts to just a few people from each union branch, not an entire office as you put it.


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## thedaras

No, I asked how many people get this day off and YOU answered "All"..


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## Deiseblue

Sorry , should have clarified that , I was a union district rep and as such delegated to attend the annual conference and on request by the union was granted leave by my employer as were my fellow delegates.


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## thedaras

Thanks for clarification,I was genuinely confused.

Fair play to the employers for facilitating the delegates.


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## becky

Shawady said:


> What about the privilege day.............
> Will they close Tuesday or Thursday?
> Or skeleton crew on both days?


 

Good Friday is a privilege day. I remember reading years ago that a lot of the CS offices were not opened on the following Tuesday so as to allow all the SC from the country to attend the easter mass etc.


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## Mpsox

thedaras said:


> Deiseblue;
> 
> I cant imagine going into superquinn when most of the staff are on leave,nor would I imagine that they would allow this to happen,especialy if they were way behind on their orders.
> 
> According to Bill struth they all get this time off. How can a department manage if they all get this day off? do they close the office?
> 
> Another poster said its just the union reps who get the day off?


 
It would be standard in any union recognition agreement between a union and an employer that the union reps would be given some time off for training/attending meetings and conferances. If Superquinn workers are members of Mandate then you can be sure their union reps will have this time off with their employers consent


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## thedaras

I didnt indicate otherwise... 
Fair play to the employers for facilitating the union reps..


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## StevieC

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0326/pay.html

apparently they intend to look into sueing the Dept. of Finance for cutting their pay....

seriously, talk about biting the hand that feeds you....


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## Delboy

Bill Struth said:


> They get a days leave to attend the conference, but overtime? Come on, stick to the facts.



I am sticking to the facts thank you very much. In 1 organisation I knew of, staff got travel overtime for going to union meetings/lrc meetings etc.
And managers really knew when the meetings were completed so if they lasted a couple of hours only, off home you go and claim your cople of overtime hours anyway. FACT


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## thedaras

Fact; its the same with hospital porters who are sent to the shops for the staff and clients...takes a really really long time.....


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## RonanC

thedaras said:


> Regarding the rate of pay of low paid clerical officers;
> 
> Say If I work in a jam factory at 18 years of age and I put the jars in a box and put sellotape on the box and for this I get 25k a year,lots of days leave, a union that is militant, a pension to die for and I cant be sacked,
> 
> Then 18 years later at the age of 36 Im on the factory floor still putting jars in a box and putting sellotape on the box as I have been for the last 18 years,why oh why would I expect to get any more that the original 25k ,(taking into account that 25k may be 36k ,18 years later.)
> 
> Also why should I get promoted ,ahead of someone who comes into the job and does a great job and moves onto putting the jam in the jars ,while I insist Im there the longest and I should get a promotion.


 
So you are comparing the work of lower paid public servants to someone working in a Jam Factory, putting jars into a box? 

Is that how little you actually really appreciate the work of the public service? Is that the extent of your knowledge of the work a public servant does? 

You really havnt a clue then do you? but you will accept and believe all you read about and hear as the complete truth. This has just made my day!! Thank you


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## thedaras

Change jam factory to whatever example of someone who earns 25k a year, if it makes you feel better,its called an example.

Evidence/backup please,of where you can point out I believe all I read and hear about? Or have you just made that up?

In case you have missed my posts, I will repeat, I have been a public servant, I have seen this behavior at first hand, I saw the dosing,time wasting ,making phone calls,on the internet,being rude,being millitant, not prepared to do anything over and above what is required,throwing spanners in the works etc, and not caring as they wouldn't be sacked.

Just to make it even more clearer for you,I do not appreciate this type of behavior.

I haven't a clue about what exactly?

In my working life I have often found that confrontational language is often used by those who are losing an argument.


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## RonanC

thedaras said:


> Change jam factory to whatever example of someone who earns 25k a year, if it makes you feel better,its called an example.
> 
> Evidence/backup please,of where you can point out I believe all I read and hear about? Or have you just made that up?
> 
> In case you have missed my posts, I will repeat, I have been a public servant, I have seen this behavior at first hand, I saw the dosing,time wasting ,making phone calls,on the internet,being rude,being millitant, not prepared to do anything over and above what is required,throwing spanners in the works etc, and not caring as they wouldn't be sacked.
> 
> Just to make it even more clearer for you,I do not appreciate this type of behavior.
> 
> I haven't a clue about what exactly?
> 
> In my working life I have often found that confrontational language is often used by those who are losing an argument.


 
I am not losing any arguement here because I am not having one. I am having a discussion about certain topics that I am highly proud of and I will not let anyone put me down.


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## DonDub

Deiseblue said:


> I agree that there is comprehensive legislation in place to protect employees rights , the introduction of such legislation was often done after consultation with unions or in many cases union driven.
> 
> However in cases like the current Public Sector impasse where employees feel that they have been unfairly treated by having pay cuts unilaterally imposed on them then no amount of the aforementioned legislation is going to enable them redress the situation - enter the unions !



You miss my point - unions did indeed play a role in establishing fundamental rights for workers; although, they were not the only drivers of change. However, today, they generally do more harm than good. We cannot afford the current PS infrastructure, as revenue has dropped by over €20 billion. The unions would have us believe that the following principles should apply to the PS:
- No compulsory redundancy amongst permanent employees - I say, why not? why the heck should one sector of society be immune to something that is a very real part of life in the private sector
- No pay cuts - why not? income in the private sector is declining - even for the low paid employees (pay cuts, part-time working, loss of overtime, elimination of bonuses, reductions in commission etc)
- Ongoing access to hugely expensive pensions - Why? Most private sector worker pension schemes are in crisis.

The PS unions answer is essentially, to give 'two-fingers' to the rest of society - ignoring the fact that protecting their interests at all costs, will directly and indirectly destroy the competitiveness of the Irish economy, which in turn will destroy more private sector jobs. So, I'm sick of the pious platitudes of union reps, and their heartfelt declarations in favor of social justice - they have become mere vested interest groups, determined to ride rough shod over the lives of others, if it advances the agenda of members.


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## Purple

Mpsox said:


> It would be standard in any union recognition agreement between a union and an employer that the union reps would be given some time off for training/attending meetings and conferances.



Which is why I'd never work in a unionised company. The idea that an employer should have to pay a union rep while off on union business is like them having to train someone to steal from them. As a shareholder in a business I'd rather close it than have to deal with a union. Thankfully my views are shared by all of the other employees.


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