# Mimimum Wage Debate last night on TV3



## cork (13 Jul 2010)

Mimimum Wage Debate last night on TV3

Vincent Brown kept on asking the restaurant guy would he survive on the mimimum wage - without an answer.

It is good that this show will continue over the Summer.

The Frontline is taking a break.


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## Sunny (13 Jul 2010)

Was that the extent of the debate? Usual Vincent Brown standard then.


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## UptheDeise (13 Jul 2010)

Minimum wage jobs are not there for survival. Their initial function is to get people on the first rung of the ladder when it comes to employment. These jobs are usually geared towards people that tend not to be academically minded and gain more experience from working than studying full time.


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## Purple (13 Jul 2010)

cork said:


> Mimimum Wage Debate last night on TV3
> 
> Vincent Brown kept on asking the restaurant guy would he survive on the mimimum wage - without an answer.
> 
> ...



Vincent Browne is a buffoon. He is utterly biased and does everything he can to skew the debate towards his nonsensical smoked salmon socialist agenda.
Whether someone could survive on the minimum wage is irrelevant. We are, thankfully, still quite a bit away from “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”. 
If Joe Blogs has a €250 a day cocaine habit should he be paid €40 an hour because that’s what he needs to cover all his costs? That's what Browne wants.
The market should set the minimum wage, though in practice social welfare rates will always set a floor below which people will not work.

Less than 3.5% of the Irish workforce is on the minimum wage, nearly all of whom are single and under 25. The motion that there are loads of families surviving on the minimum wage is laughable, for starters that would be entitled to Family Income Support and other benefits.

Browne’s argument that wages should also be capped at the upper end is also laughable. What about the business owner who mortgages their home to start a business and then spends two years working for nothing to build it up, should their wages be capped at X6 times the minimum wage?  What about companies that make large profits, should the owners be forced to leave cash in the business rather than take it out as income because they might earn more than 6 times the minimum wage?

His protests about Lawyers and Doctors earning vast amounts are valid but the solution is more competition and a complaints board that can suspend, fine or strike off people that overcharge.


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## Shawady (13 Jul 2010)

I think the Frontiline has been an improvement on Questions and Answers but as the season has gone on, a lot of the programmes seem to sound the same.

One of audience's comments struck me last night. He had been unemployed for 14 months and his wife had just given birth to their 3rd child. This meant he was out of work when they decided to extend their family. Seemed a bit irresponsible to me to take on the extra cost of another child when he was struggling already.


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## demoivre (13 Jul 2010)

Sunny said:


> Was that the extent of the debate? Usual Vincent Brown standard then.





Purple said:


> Vincent Browne is a buffoon. He is utterly biased and does everything he can to skew the debate towards is nonsensical smoked salmon socialist agenda.



Couldn't agree more.


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## cork (13 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> Browne’s argument that wages should also be capped at the upper end is also laughable.



I agree. Vincent thinks that this is a big solution.

That said, the minimum wage is very common in retail, catering etc.

It acts as a protection aganist expliotation.


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## Purple (13 Jul 2010)

cork said:


> That said, the minimum wage is very common in retail, catering etc.
> 
> It acts as a protection aganist expliotation.


The dole rate of €5.50 an hour acts as a protection against exploitation. The minimum wage at the highest after tax minimum wage in the EU acts as a barrier to job creation.


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## Deiseblue (13 Jul 2010)

Eurostat , the EC's statistical office adjusted Ireland's minimum wage to reflect purchasing power based on the cost of living here.

Measured on this basis the Irish minimum wage drops to 6th on the table , worth less than the minimum wage paid in the UK,France,Belgium,Holland and Luxembourg.


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## Firefly (13 Jul 2010)

Deiseblue said:


> Eurostat , the EC's statistical office adjusted Ireland's minimum wage to reflect purchasing power based on the cost of living here.


 
Which contributes IMO to keeping the cost of living high here


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## censuspro (13 Jul 2010)

If low wages was the answer to an economic recovery countries like Somalia would be economic superpowers.

Pointless cutting minimum wage unless you first cut social welfare. Otherwise it creates a poverty trap where it's more cost effective for people to claim social welfare than to get a minimum wage job.


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## Purple (13 Jul 2010)

Deiseblue said:


> Eurostat , the EC's statistical office adjusted Ireland's minimum wage to reflect purchasing power based on the cost of living here.
> 
> Measured on this basis the Irish minimum wage drops to 6th on the table , worth less than the minimum wage paid in the UK,France,Belgium,Holland and Luxembourg.



Over 15% of the French workforce is on the minimum wage. That shows that there is a higher proportion of lower paid people there.


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## cork (13 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> The dole rate of €5.50 an hour acts as a protection against exploitation. The minimum wage at the highest after tax minimum wage in the EU acts as a barrier to job creation.




Mimimum wage jobs require training. 

Bar/restaurant work requires skill.
The mimimum wage is a protection.

I worked in jobs (prior to the mimimum wage) that paid less than the dole.

eg. accountancy offices.

The option of welfare is no safegaurd aganist expliotation.


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## Deiseblue (13 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> Over 15% of the French workforce is on the minimum wage. That shows that there is a higher proportion of lower paid people there.


 
Does'nt alter the fact that given the cost of living here the minimum wage  is probably set at the correct level.


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## DerKaiser (13 Jul 2010)

Deiseblue said:


> Does'nt alter the fact that given the cost of living here the minimum wage  is probably set at the correct level.



Yes, if you think the cost of living is acceptable then the minimum wage is acceptable.

Anyone calling for a lower minimum wage here is doing so because they think the cost of living should come down also.


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## Deiseblue (13 Jul 2010)

DerKaiser said:


> Yes, if you think the cost of living is acceptable then the minimum wage is acceptable.
> 
> Anyone calling for a lower minimum wage here is doing so because they think the cost of living should come down also.



Given the relatively small percentage of employees on the minimum wage it is highly debatable that a reduction in the minimum wage would impact the cost of living in any dramatic fashion.

It is not a case of finding the cost of living acceptable it's dealing with the reality of the current situation re the cost of living .


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## Complainer (13 Jul 2010)

cork said:


> Mimimum Wage Debate last night on TV3
> 
> Vincent Brown kept on asking the restaurant guy would he survive on the minimum wage - without an answer.


The interviewee (rep from the Hotels/Restaurents federation I think) was very, very weak. Any half-decent rep would have pointed out to Vincent that no-one in fact survives on the minimum wage. They get a whole lot of other supports from the state (such as housing/rent allowance/medical card etc) that allow them to survive. 

Isn't it nice of the state to effectively subsidise these low wages?



UptheDeise said:


> Minimum wage jobs are not there for survival. Their initial function is to get people on the first rung of the ladder when it comes to employment. These jobs are usually geared towards people that tend not to be academically minded and gain more experience from working than studying full time.



I really don't believe this at all. For the vast majority of people in minimum and low wage jobs, there is no training, no development opportunities and no support to move onwards or upwards. Combine this with poor schooling and a social environment that does not value work, and the end result is that few people with develop beyond a low wage environment. A very small minority might manage to crawl their way over the threshold, but that is the exception, not the rule.

But regardless of this, we need to look at the post rather than the person. Even if the employee manages to develop themselves, the minimum wage post exists for the next bloke/gal. Society is unlikely to ever pay a decent living wage to those who mind our children, our elderly parents and our disabled brothers and sisters. 



Shawady said:


> One of audience's comments struck me last night. He had been unemployed for 14 months and his wife had just given birth to their 3rd child. This meant he was out of work when they decided to extend their family. Seemed a bit irresponsible to me to take on the extra cost of another child when he was struggling already.


These things aren't always planned.



Deiseblue said:


> Eurostat , the EC's statistical office adjusted Ireland's minimum wage to reflect purchasing power based on the cost of living here.
> 
> Measured on this basis the Irish minimum wage drops to 6th on the table , worth less than the minimum wage paid in the UK,France,Belgium,Holland and Luxembourg.



Very interesting.


censuspro said:


> If low wages was the answer to an economic recovery countries like Somalia would be economic superpowers.


Brilliant - I'll be using that line again.


Firefly said:


> Which contributes IMO to keeping the cost of living high here


Or else it contributes towards allowing the recipients keep their heads above water in a high-cost environment.


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## DB74 (13 Jul 2010)

But how do you get one of them down so that the other follows?

Chicken or egg!????


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## Complainer (13 Jul 2010)

DB74 said:


> But how do you get one of them down so that the other follows?
> 
> Chicken or egg!????


Well don't create a property bubble, would be a good start.


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## Purple (14 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> The interviewee (rep from the Hotels/Restaurents federation I think) was very, very weak. Any half-decent rep would have pointed out to Vincent that no-one in fact survives on the minimum wage. They get a whole lot of other supports from the state (such as housing/rent allowance/medical card etc) that allow them to survive.


 I agree.



Complainer said:


> Isn't it nice of the state to effectively subsidise these low wages?


 That’s where I disagree with socialists. I don’t think am employer should have to pay an employee based on what the employees costs are. I think they should pay their employees based on  the value of the job they do. The social responsibility that the employer has is to pay their taxes. They state can then use that money to fun whatever social safety net they desire. 



Complainer said:


> I really don't believe this at all. For the vast majority of people in minimum and low wage jobs, there is no training, no development opportunities and no support to move onwards or upwards. Combine this with poor schooling and a social environment that does not value work, and the end result is that few people with develop beyond a low wage environment. A very small minority might manage to crawl their way over the threshold, but that is the exception, not the rule.


 I agree with that as well but you are arguing for more resources or better allocation of resources from the state rather than paying higher wages to people who’s input into a business doesn’t warrant it.



Complainer said:


> But regardless of this, we need to look at the post rather than the person. Even if the employee manages to develop themselves, the minimum wage post exists for the next bloke/gal.


 I agree with that as well but I don’t see it as a problem.



Complainer said:


> Society is unlikely to ever pay a decent living wage to those who mind our children, our elderly parents and our disabled brothers and sisters.


 I don’t see how that has anything to do with the discussion as the state pays carers as part of the social infrastructure or do you think that employers should pay people more if they have dependent parents and/or disabled children?


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## cork (14 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> For the vast majority of people in minimum and low wage jobs, there is no training, no development opportunities and no support to move onwards or upwards. Combine this with poor schooling and a social environment that does not value work, and the end result is that few people with develop beyond a low wage environment.



Thus, the need for protection.

Much low paid work requies skills - eg. bar/restaurant work.

Given the current state of the jobs market - many highly educated people are taking mimimum wage jobs.

There was a recent case of a cimena being opened getting bucket loads of CVs.


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## Firefly (15 Jul 2010)

censuspro said:


> If low wages was the answer to an economic recovery countries like Somalia would be economic superpowers.


 
I think this is one of the biggest red herrings advocated by the unions. Nobody is suggesting that we should bring our cost base down to Somalia - or China for that matter. (I think we all agree that the future for Ireland is not competing with China producing plastic children's toys). What we do need to achieve though IMO is to become one of the cheapest/most attractive countries to do business in (in the markets that we operate in) so we can attract foreign investment and also be in a position to export internationally.


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## csirl (15 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> The dole rate of €5.50 an hour acts as a protection against exploitation. The minimum wage at the highest after tax minimum wage in the EU acts as a barrier to job creation.


 
In reality, the dole rate is a lot higher. 

http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcon...upplementary-welfare-schemes/rent_supplement/

A single person in Dublin can get €529 per month in rent supplement which works out at in excess of €3 per hour. 

This means the dole rate is at least €8.50 per hour. Probably more when you cost the other benefits they may receive.

Reducing the minimum wage is meaningless when the current minimum wage is similar or less than the dole rate.


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## Purple (15 Jul 2010)

csirl said:


> In reality, the dole rate is a lot higher.
> 
> http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcon...upplementary-welfare-schemes/rent_supplement/
> 
> ...



I agree. On a personallevel for those living on welfare it must seem offensive to head that they are getting too much but the hard economic fact is that the floor from which all wage levels stem is far too high in this country.

I have said it before but 'till people from the North are driving down here to do their shopping we will be too expensive.


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## Shawady (15 Jul 2010)

csirl said:


> In reality, the dole rate is a lot higher.
> 
> http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcon...upplementary-welfare-schemes/rent_supplement/
> 
> ...


 
And that is just using the figures for a single person.
My friend was unfortunate enough to lose his job at the start of the year and is now suriving on dole. He has 3 children and is getting €420 a week. He has a mortgage but if he was renting, according to your link he would be entitled to €1,100 a month.
In this case I think someone would have to take a job worth approx 40K a year to be better off. 
Will there be many jobs at this salary on offer over the coming years?


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## Purple (16 Jul 2010)

Shawady said:


> And that is just using the figures for a single person.
> My friend was unfortunate enough to lose his job at the start of the year and is now suriving on dole. He has 3 children and is getting €420 a week. He has a mortgage but if he was renting, according to your link he would be entitled to €1,100 a month.
> In this case I think someone would have to take a job worth approx 40K a year to be better off.
> Will there be many jobs at this salary on offer over the coming years?



Wow, your friend would get €673.85 a week plus the childrens allowance for three kids. That's a net income of €35'000 a year (plus childrens allowance which he would get anyway).


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## Shawady (16 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> Wow, your friend would get €673.85 a week plus the childrens allowance for three kids. That's a net income of €35'000 a year (plus childrens allowance which he would get anyway).


 
Yep, he actually has a mortgage so is getting some mortgage protection for 6 months and then he will get help from social welfare for another 12 months. I think they will pay the interest. He would prefer to work but has admitted he is under no pressure to do so until the middle of next year.
I think his previous job was only paying approx 35K a year so he has admitted when he subtracts the money he spent on petrol and tolls he is no worse off.


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