# Can a sole trader claim mileage and subsistence?



## vicar

Hi, 
Have been operating as sole trader for a year now (whilst still holding down a full time PAYE job) and its finally time to bite the bullet and go out full time and give it a proper go. My question is can I claim susbsistence and mileage rates at civil service rates? I asked my accountant is it OK to do this as a sole trader and he says yes, but a lot of people have told me it can only be done if I register as a company(Ltd) . I'm a bit confused, and its not like I dont trust my accountant but I just want to make sure everything is done by the book. I I will be clocking up about 2000 miles per month but my registered office is at home. 
Thanks for help in advance ..


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## ajapale

Hi Vicar,

Ill move this to the taxation forum (from AABusiness) as it more closely reflects the question.

aj


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## howareya

Vicar,

Yes you definaltely can claim mileage and subsistence.  you should read the rules before claiming any money.  The fact that your place of business is your home might render the first 10 miles or so of your journey not allowable.  There is a leaflet in the revenue web site.

Make sure you keep good records and after that your laughing.  Good and allowable way of taking money from your business and get a deduction for it.


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## ubiquitous

howareya said:
			
		

> Vicar,
> 
> Yes you definaltely can claim mileage and subsistence.  you should read the rules before claiming any money.  The fact that your place of business is your home might render the first 10 miles or so of your journey not allowable.  There is a leaflet in the revenue web site.
> 
> Make sure you keep good records and after that your laughing.  Good and allowable way of taking money from your business and get a deduction for it.



This advice is totally 100% incorrect. Civil service rates of mileage and subsistence can be claimed by employees and company directors but NEVER by self-employed individuals.


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## vicar

Still a bit counfused lads! Ubiquitous, if I cant claim mileage if your are self employed then how to you get your mileage back??
My accountant tells me that I can claim it!


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## bazermc

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> This advice is totally 100% incorrect. Civil service rates of mileage and subsistence can be claimed by employees and company directors but NEVER by self-employed individuals.


 
I agree.  A self employed individual will get a tax dedcution for mileage done provided its wholly and exclusively for the purpose of his/her trade.
An employee can claim mileage.  A self employed individual cannot be an employee of his.her own trade.  Whereas if through a company the director can be an employee


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## Glenbhoy

> Still a bit counfused lads! Ubiquitous, if I cant claim mileage if your are self employed then how to you get your mileage back??
> My accountant tells me that I can claim it!


Just because you can't claim civil service rates does not mean that you can't claim anything - expenses incurred wholly and exclusively for business purposes can be claimed, in practice you'll probably be allowed a percentage of motor expenses, including wear and tear on the car etc. In any case, I'm sure your accountant will keep you right, as he probably has a number of other clients like yourself. It would probably be unwise to register a company if it can be avoided as that's one sure way to increase expenses and beauraucracy.
post crossed


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## vicar

Hi Glenbhoy, 

Thanks for your reply, I'm very confused now! I spoke to my accountant and he maintains that even though I'm a sole trader (not a LTD co.) that I can claim mileage rates!! 
Somebody somewhere is wrong but obviously as you can imagine I would expect my accountant to be right. 
Might ring revenue to clarify....


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## viztopia

in my opinion only a company or a partnership can claim mileage expenses. as a sole trader you cant claim mileage as such but can claim a percentage of waer and tear and travel expenses. the best thing you can do is to contact revenue but i would advise you to get their reply in writing as i find that different people in revenue give difefrent answers much the same as the answers above..........


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## WizardDr

The position for a sole trader is that he can claim .....expenses on an 'incurred basis' which are 'wholly and necessarily' incurred.

For the avoidance of any doubt, this is NOT mileage but is the actual expense incurred. There is a big difference. And as has been said keep all your receipts.

If you are own a company, you may use mileage rates.


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## Marianne S

My boyfriend is self-employed as a sole trader. He keeps all of his receipts for his diesel, food, accomodation if he has to stay overnight, stationery, heat and light, basically any business expenses. Some he can claim VAT back on, some not. At the end of the the year when he comes to do his accounts he subtracts expenses from gross profit and comes up with net profit (profit and loss account). Any expenses incurred go to reduce his tax bill. This is how he can "claim " expenses.

Obviously I'm simplifying it a bit, I suggest you go and talk to your accountant again.

Sorry forgot to say that you can also claim for depreciation on your car. My boyfriend prepares his accounts himself, including his VAT return very 2 months, it's not difficult and you can reduce your bill at the accountant (Accoutnants fees are also allowable as expenses BTW!)


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## serotoninsid

Marianne S said:
			
		

> Sorry forgot to say that you can also claim for depreciation on your car. My boyfriend prepares his accounts himself, including his VAT return very 2 months, it's not difficult and you can reduce your bill at the accountant (Accoutnants fees are also allowable as expenses BTW!)



Is there any book outthere that covers this topic ie. doing irish tax returns yourself/expenses that can be claimed etc. 

I am fairly confident that I will be turning self employed in '07 - and therefore I would like to familiarise myself with this sort of stuff beforehand.


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## liteweight

vicar said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Have been operating as sole trader for a year now (whilst still holding down a full time PAYE job) and its finally time to bite the bullet and go out full time and give it a proper go. My question is can I claim susbsistence and mileage rates at civil service rates? I asked my accountant is it OK to do this as a sole trader and he says yes, but a lot of people have told me it can only be done if I register as a company(Ltd) . I'm a bit confused, and its not like I dont trust my accountant but I just want to make sure everything is done by the book. I I will be clocking up about 2000 miles per month but my registered office is at home.
> 
> I'd be more concerned about expenses claimed as your office is at home. Make sure you don't claim too much of the household expenses. If you do and you want to sell your house at a later stage, there may be a capital gains liability!


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## nai

the difference here is that as a sole trader you can claim back what it cost you to travel 1 mile or what it actually cost you for your lunch - eg 
travel 10 miles @ cost of say €1.20 in diesel - you claim €1.20 in diesel.

For a LTD company Director - travel 10 miles - claim mileage @ civil service rates - ie €1.2423 per mile for first 4000 miles p.a. and €0.5739 per mile thereafter. ie - you claim €12.423 in expenses (if in early part of year) or €5.739 after 4000 miles.

For subsistence - sole trader - lunch cost €5 - claim back €5
ltd - claim back €16.32 per day whether you eat or not !

there are some additional limits set in relatio nto subsistence but I don't have them to hand - I think if you're LTD you can only claim for first 90 days per particular client or location.....


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## Marianne S

I had a look for some books on the subject but to be honest you don't really need one. The accountant showed us how to do the bookeeping and gave us a set of accounts from a client (obviously personal information and identifiers were blacked out). She also said she'd look over the accounts once we've completed them to see if they were correct.A school accounting book would be more than enough if you really wanted to get one.


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## JoeB

Hi

As far as claiming for lunches go, Revenue claim that people need to eat in order to live, not to do their job and so it can't be claimed by a self employed person. Exception may be when 'travelling' and you have to eat in restaurants. I'm self employed and don't keep receipts or get tax back for lunches but I do for teabags and coffee.

As far as mileage goes you can claim back every amount actually spent according to the receipts you have, only in proportion to buisness / private use of the car. You can't claim VAT back on petrol but you can use the VAT component to reduce your profit at the end of the year.

Cheers
Joe


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## money man

im sure nai is correct. vicar i would worry about my accountant if he told me that. for a sole trader you would have to keep your receipts as a ltd company director you could claim subsistance/motor expences. the revenue have a very simple easy to understand leaflet on this . i think its called the it 51. .   i hope this works. im sure it is the correct one. if not check oasis.gov.ie and you can do a search there.


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## Gordanus

JoeBallantin said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> As far as claiming for lunches go, Revenue claim that people need to eat in order to live, not to do their job and so it can't be claimed by a self employed person. Exception may be when 'travelling' and you have to eat in restaurants. I'm self employed and don't keep receipts or get tax back for lunches



Well I'm a self-employed sole trader but I don't work from home, so my lunches (take-away sambos from local Centra) are tax-deductible.   I don't think the Revenue take the view that I should either go home for lunch or bring in my own home-made sambo............although in that case, I'd be claimeing the price of bread, butter and ham from the weekly shopping.


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## JoeB

> Well I'm a self-employed sole trader but I don't work from home, so my lunches (take-away sambos from local Centra) are tax-deductible. I don't think the Revenue take the view that I should either go home for lunch or bring in my own home-made sambo............although in that case, I'd be claimeing the price of bread, butter and ham from the weekly shopping.




Hi

Gordanus I think you're incorrect.

PAYE workers get no allowances for lunches and that's the point, they have to supply their own sustinence during working hours.

You are eating in order to stay alive, do you also bill your clients for food eaten while you were working for them? Are you permitted to eat in fancy restaurants and use that expense to reduce your profit? 

Before you say that the expenses have to be reasonable Revenue don't work in that way. If an allowable expense is incurred it can be claimed even if there are identical services available for half the price.

If you suffer an audit I believe personnal lunch expenses will be questioned, and may cause a more severe audit (in my opinion).

Cheers
Joe


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## Lorraine B

Afraid that I have to agree.  Food expenses not allowable


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## gallon

That link sent by Money_man was very useful. My problem is that although I have bene keeping records of my Mileage for the past 4 months. I was uncertain if I could claim but kept a record anyway but I never knew the mileage rate changed. 

Obviously in hindsight this is niave as petrol prices have already increased dramatically in those four months alone. Would anyone per chance have the rates for the 4 months previous to July, just want to back fill the logs??

I assume as a director If just invoice/expense myself on the milage?


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## Gordanus

Beginning to think my accountant was wrong.  However, according to the Revenue site "guide to Completing 2005 Pay & File Returns" allowable expenses include subsistence:

Expenses and Deductions [131 - 138] 
131. Salaries/Wages, Staff costs - this includes all staff remuneration (taxed and untaxed), staff 
training, redundancy payments, PRSI, pensions, etc. The owner’s wages should not be included but 
should be input in ‘Drawings’, see 140 opposite. 
132. Sub-Contractors - this relates to building, meat-processing and forestry businesses. 
Sub-Contractors are those defined by Section 531 TCA 1997. 
133. Consultancy, Professional fees - include audit, accountancy, legal, architect, auctioneer, 
surveyor, etc. 
****134. Motor, Travel and Subsistence - include fuel, tax, servicing, repairs, insurance, travel and 
subsistence reimbursed to staff including motor expenses, country money, etc. *****
135. Repairs/Renewals - these are costs incurred in the maintenance and upkeep of the business 
property and the running maintenance and upkeep of the business equipment and machinery. 
Enhancements or improvements to property are not maintenance and, as capital, should be added 
back in the Adjusted Profit Computation. 
136. Depreciation, Goodwill/Capital write-off - depreciation relates to business assets provided for 
during the accounting period. It should be added back in the Adjusted Profit Computation. 
Goodwill/Capital write-off relates to any write-off of the value of assets during the accounting period. 
It should also be added back in the Adjusted Profit Computation. 
137. (a) Provisions including Bad Debts - do not include provision for depreciation. 
(b) If the balance is a loss tick


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## btuohy

Vicar?

Just wondering did you get a definitive answer to your query?


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## extopia

Yes Gordanus, you might want to remove all those ham sambos from the books.


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## jocmccoy

So as a sole trader, you can not claim your lunch.  
But could you if it was a lunch with a client/potential client???


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## extopia

jocmccoy said:


> So as a sole trader, you can not claim your lunch.
> But could you if it was a lunch with a client/potential client???



No.


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## ButtermilkJa

What? Surely if you take a client out to lunch it's an expense. Maybe not a VAT expense but one you can put through the books before tax. No?


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## extopia

Again, no. Entertainment expenses are not considered to be deductible against tax. A company could by all means reimburse an employee for taking a client out, but the company may not use such expenses to reduce its tax bill (i.e. can't claim them as a cost of doing business). Sole traders may not claim such expenses either. Think about it - if it was deductible, we'd all be taking each other out to dinner all the time!


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## liteweight

extopia said:


> Again, no. Entertainment expenses are not considered to be deductible against tax. A company could by all means reimburse an employee for taking a client out, but the company may not use such expenses to reduce its tax bill (i.e. can't claim them as a cost of doing business). Sole traders may not claim such expenses either. Think about it - if it was deductible, we'd all be taking each other out to dinner all the time!



Ah the good old days!


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## Newby

extopia said:


> Entertainment expenses are not considered to be deductible against tax.


I know of returns being submitted where staff entertainment is an allowable expense for tax purposes. Mind you, this was for corporation tax purposes not sole traders.


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## ButtermilkJa

extopia said:


> Again, no. Entertainment expenses are not considered to be deductible against tax. A company could by all means reimburse an employee for taking a client out, but the company may not use such expenses to reduce its tax bill (i.e. can't claim them as a cost of doing business). Sole traders may not claim such expenses either.


Ok fair enough, maybe not entertainment expenses, but I was thinking more along the lines of a business lunch. Say perhaps you had to meet a client to discuss a project and the only free time you had was lunchtime, so you talked over a sandwich in a cafe. Would that be an expense?


> Think about it - if it was deductible, we'd all be taking each other out to dinner all the time!


Well, not necessarily  I wouldn't spend money on lunches all the time just to avoid tax. Sure where would be the benfit there if you're a sole trader. All your money would be gone on fancy foods in the end just to spite the taxman!
But I see your point


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## liteweight

Is advertising and promotion still an allowable expense for a sole trader? I didn't think so.


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## ButtermilkJa

I don't follow


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## Pegasus

Hi,
Staff exps are ok - xmas party etc.
Any third party entertainment not allowed.
Advertising & promotion is ok but I don't think you'll get away with calling a meal for two in Chapter One advertising - even if it is in reality.

Question; what about a self-employed person away from his office for a couple of days - lunch ok in this case?


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## Glenbhoy

Pegasus said:


> Question; what about a self-employed person away from his office for a couple of days - lunch ok in this case?


Yes afaik, because you never got a chance to make up your hang sambo that morning, as the hotel wouldn't allow you into the kitchen!!


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## liteweight

ButtermilkJa said:


> I don't follow



Advertising and promotion....the promotion (apart from the usual form) was usually taking clients for meals, drinks etc. Legitimate expense in most instances IMO as I certainly wouldn't meet up with some of these people otherwise. It used to be allowed but it was stopped a good number of years ago according to our accountant at the time.


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## ButtermilkJa

Ah, I didn't realise the connection. You're right though, these _should_ all be legitimate expenses. It probably all boils down to the fact that these systems were abused by people and so were stopped.


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## ubiquitous

ButtermilkJa said:


> It probably all boils down to the fact that these systems were abused by people and so were stopped.



I wonder... It might just as easily boil down to an example of official pettiness and begrudgery on the part of this State. My understanding that the rules on this topic in the UK and other countries are much more liberal than here.


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## ButtermilkJa

ubiquitous said:


> ...My understanding that the rules on this topic in the UK and other countries are much more liberal than here.


Hmmm, interesting. Perhaps it is begrudgery then?

Aaah, the wonderful humanity of our leaders


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## nod

I'm a sole trader and my accountant has always said that I cannot claim food bought as expences as I have to "eat to live"
However,a friend of mine who is also a sole trader was told by his accountant he can claim and has been doing so for years.
I think if there was an audit in the morning I would be the happier having read this thread


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## ButtermilkJa

Well, I had to travel to the country yesterday for a job. I'm a sole trader and used my own car as I do for all travel. I bought a sandwich for lunch while I was down there.

So, if an employee is allowed claim subsistence rates for being away from the office, and mileage rates for using a personal car and lunch expenses for costs incurred, then why can't sole traders?

I understand that I can claim a certain amount of the cost of running my car when doing my year-end accounts but jeez, who's gonna argue with me over a tenner for lunch? Surely that's an expense as I would not have had to pay it if I was not on the job.


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## ubiquitous

ButtermilkJa said:


> So, if an employee is allowed claim subsistence rates for being away from the office, and mileage rates for using a personal car and lunch expenses for costs incurred, then why can't sole traders?



Ask Brian Cowen, or maybe your local TD or councillor.

You have pinpointed one of the most glaring anomalies in our tax system.


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## ButtermilkJa

Although I hear in today's news they're trying to abolish PAYE credits. So maybe they're not really out to get sole traders... they're out to get _everyone_! 

It's very frustrating. When I told people I was going self-employed, all they could say was... 'Wow, you're going to be able to claim for everything'. Every day I seem to find out I can claim for less and less.


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## Domo

Agree, expenses have to be "wholly and necessarily incurred" in the performance of the business - therefore eating is not incurred in the performance and therefore not allowable.


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## Gordanus

The definitive answer:   [broken link removed] page 23:
"This article concerns deductions allowable in computing profits for tax purposes in respect of food and subsistence expenses of self-employed individuals. The treatment of employees’ (including directors’) subsistence expenses is dealt with in Leaflet IT 54.
Cost of Meals
It is a long established principle that the cost of meals taken at the place of business are not allowable expenses for tax purposes. In addition, expenses incurred on meals consumed away from the place of business are, in general, not wholly and exclusively laid out for the purposes of the trade or profession since everyone must eat in order to live. *****Where such costs are not allowable they may not be apportioned***** to allow extra costs incurred from the necessity of eating away from home or from the place of business. 
Costs of meals may be incurred wholly and exclusively for business purposes where a business by its nature involves travelling (for example, in the case of self-employed long distance lorry drivers) or where occasional business journeys outside the normal pattern are made. A reasonable level of expenses incurred in these circumstances may be deducted from business profits.
Where a business trip necessitates one or more nights away from home, reasonable accommodation costs incurred while away from home may be deducted. The cost of meals taken in conjunction with overnight accommodation may also be deducted. Where self-employed long distance lorry drivers spend the night in their cabs rather than taking overnight accommodation, the costs incurred on their meals may be deducted.
It is important to note that only expenses actually incurred and for which receipts are available may be claimed. Receipts must be retained for production in the course of a Revenue audit of the business. "

As two negatives make a positive, Where such costs are allowable they may be apportioned to allow extra costs incurred - so they sometimes are allowable!


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## extopia

liteweight said:


> Is advertising and promotion still an allowable expense for a sole trader? I didn't think so.



Advertising is indeed an allowable expense.


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## liteweight

extopia said:


> Advertising is indeed an allowable expense.



I take it this is just the usual advertising in journals/newspapers etc?


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## ButtermilkJa

Gordanus said:


> The definitive answer:   [broken link removed] page 23:
> 
> ...Costs of meals may be incurred wholly and exclusively for business purposes where a business by its nature involves travelling (for example, in the case of self-employed long distance lorry drivers) *or where occasional business journeys outside the normal pattern are made*. A reasonable level of expenses incurred in these circumstances may be deducted from business profits....


So does this mean a day trip to the country on a site-visit is an _'occasional business journey outside the normal pattern'_ for someone who works from home 9-5 mon-fri?

God it gets more confusing all the time


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## extopia

liteweight said:


> I take it this is just the usual advertising in journals/newspapers etc?



Well what type did you have in mind?


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## liteweight

extopia said:


> Well what type did you have in mind?



T-Shirts and Underwear!!


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## extopia

I don't see why not, as long as you don't wear them yourself.


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## liteweight

extopia said:


> I don't see why not, as long as you don't wear them yourself.




  I might get a cold in my kidneys!! Otherwise


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## Glenbhoy

ButtermilkJa said:


> Well, I had to travel to the country yesterday for a job. I'm a sole trader and used my own car as I do for all travel. I bought a sandwich for lunch while I was down there.


The logical thing has to be to claim the difference between a self-made sandwich and the bought one, because by doing your job you are not in your normal place of work where you can make a sandwich up at the cost of 50c, that being the cost that's neccessary for you to live, however the premium has been incurred solely because of you had to travel for work (and obviously no-one likes soggy tomato sandwiches).


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## Gordanus

liteweight said:


> T-Shirts and Underwear!!



Just how much advertising does underwear generate????  Unless they're worn by the guys who wear their knickers on top.....


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## liteweight

Gordanus said:


> Just how much advertising does underwear generate????  Unless they're worn by the guys who wear their knickers on top.....



If you're Ann Summers...quite a lot!


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## Gordanus

Glenbhoy said:


> The logical thing has to be to claim the difference between a self-made sandwich and the bought one



The distinction is hilarious - you can bring your home-made sambos to work if working in your usual office, but go elsewhere to work and you'll have to buy some.  Anyway, how much does a home-made sambo cost?  Anyone like to hazard a guess?  (Bearing in mind that while some of us are sliced pan, others are ciabatta, and - well, my gran bakes the soda bread and gives it to me.)


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## Newby

Gordanus said:


> ...my gran bakes the soda bread and gives it to me...



Careful... if she gives you enough of it in a year you might have to pay CAT on the gift of the bread.


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## Gordanus

Newby said:


> Careful... if she gives you enough of it in a year you might have to pay CAT on the gift of the bread.


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## mctechie

I've always found this a pain to track motor expenses in real life, as I kept loosing the sheets, forgetting to record the mileage etc.

So I finally bit the bullet and decided to design a Motor Travel Expense tracking spreadsheet using Google Docs,

By using Google Docs its available to me anywhere I have internet access (i.e my laptop) and my expenses are calculated in real time as a running total.

The spreadsheet automatically changes the rate depending on the amount of km's travelled (over 6437km per annum and the allowance rate changes).

So at the end of the month, everything is neatly calculated and recorded as per the revenue's guidelines.

I spent ages looking for a decent solution on the web and finally decided I needed to 'roll my own'. If anyone would like a copy of this spreadsheet, I'll be happy to share this with you.  PM me if you want a copy.

Regards,
Martin C.
http://www.techielive.com


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## Gordanus

Follow up: I was audited by the revenue last year.  Started with a few questions on whether I owned any racehorses or yaughts, and what kind of a car I drive and how big is my house. (No boats or racehorses, a 10 yr old small car, average 2 bed house for those of you who think sole traderdom is enriching).  OUT went any lunch claims, OUT went tea & coffee for the office.  If I take a client to dinner (v rarely) I can claim for his lunch, but not mine.


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## Vince73

*Applying for a Start up grant*

Hi,I am starting up my Car wash & Valet Service very soon.I have already sourced my place of work,and am doing some minor adjustments to the place myself before I open,out of my own pocket,i will be employing 2 full time staff,I have been onto the county enterprise board regarding start up Grants,but was told that I would not qualify as my business is Retail? Can anybody shed some light on this please.I will now have to source the products and machinery myself again out of my own pocket,why advertise start up loans/grants if they don't seem to give them out??


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## MrKeane

The theory is that you are just taking jobs off somebody else and not adding bottom line value.


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## Vince73

I don't understand that theory,I'm giving employment to 2 people,not taking jobs away from somebody else? correct me if i'm wrong


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## Complainer

Vince73 said:


> I don't understand that theory,I'm giving employment to 2 people,not taking jobs away from somebody else? correct me if i'm wrong



The big question is whether your business will get people to spend more on car washes than otherwise, or will it take business from other car wash services?


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## Tentman

In short CEBs dont give a flying feather about businesses in the service or retail sector, where incidently, most of any new jobs coming on stream are created. Yet another example of the short-sighted attitude of the policy makers. The current radio advert on radio stating that CEBs gave assistance to 30,000 people last year, simply makes my blood boil.


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## Complainer

Tentman said:


> In short CEBs dont give a flying feather about businesses in the service or retail sector, where incidently, most of any new jobs coming on stream are created. Yet another example of the short-sighted attitude of the policy makers. The current radio advert on radio stating that CEBs gave assistance to 30,000 people last year, simply makes my blood boil.


Some very broad generalisations there. http:dlrceb.ie provide many services (training, mentoring, networking, trade missions if relevant) across all sectors, but funding is limited as follows;


> The business must be a manufacturing or internationally traded  service business
> OR
> The business Is a domestically traded  service with the real potential to trade internationally i.e export.
> (NB.  An applicant business must clearly demonstrate both its intent and  capacity to make export sales)
> OR
> The business Is a  domestically traded service being established by a female returning to  the workforce or
> unemployed person(s) where the potential for  deadweight and displacement does not exist.
> 
> 
> DLR CEB *is  NOT *in a position to consider funding applications from retail  enterprises, personal services (hairdressers, gardeners etc.),  professional services (accountants, solicitors etc.) or construction  businesses.


Does it really make sense for CEBs to be funding new retailers, who are just going to displace existing retailers?


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## Paddy199

Those civil service rates are for Schedule E employees only. 

As self employed, you are schedule D and you can claim for wholly and exclusively for the trade expenses i.e. receipted.


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## midastouch

ubiquitous said:


> This advice is totally 100% incorrect. Civil service rates of mileage and subsistence can be claimed by employees and company directors but NEVER by self-employed individuals.



Well ubiquitous, that the above in incorrectness is incorrect is fundamentally 100% incorrect.
Sole Traders, or, self employed persons, are eligible to claim a 40% rebate on the costs of expenditure on diesel for even their private car. That much I do know. But about other expenses, alas I am not so sure.

MidasTouch


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## DB74

midastouch said:


> Sole Traders, or, self employed persons, are eligible to claim a 40% rebate on the costs of expenditure on diesel for even their private car. That much I do know.


 
Can you provide a link to this as I have never heard of this before.

Do you mean that they can get 40% tax relief on the expenses incurred on running the car or is it something totally different.


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## Dinarius

Interesting thread.

All the emphasis is on the sole trader (of which I am one) not being able to claim this or that.

However, don't forget that, unlike the company director, you can charge expenses. Obviously, charging for lunch and travel within the town you work live for a client in the same town isn't on. But, if you travel down the country you should be charging mileage and subsistence and not worrying whether or not you can claim this off you tax bill.

Right?

D.


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## The Bishop

I also would have to question your accountants advice - as a sole trader you can claim your expenses back on travel if you have receipts and the expenses have been incurred wholly and exclusively for the business - otherwise you can come to an arrangment with revenue on the proportion to be allocated to the business.  As far as lunches etc are concerned you can make a case to revenue to claim for lunch expenses if you are away from your base of work for 5 hours or more and again as a sole trader you can claim the total amount of the lunch as an expense rather than the civil service rates.  However, the travel and subsistence rates for the civil service would apply if you had employees - the treatment is different for employees and for self-employed sole traders.


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## JoeB

Dinarius said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> ... But, if you travel down the country you should be charging mileage and subsistence and not worrying whether or not you can claim this off you tax bill.
> 
> Right?




I'm not sure.

What does 'charge mileage' mean? Does it mean that you can claim the ex VAT diesel price as an expense, and you can claim the VAT back if registered? If it means something else then I feel that you are wrong. If a tradesman travels for two hours to reach a job all he can do is claim his expenses, .. i.e diesel and nothing else.


Claiming for food is problematic. You eat to live, not to work, and that's the way Revenue look at it. If you weren't working you'd be eating nonetheless.. so the expense hasn't been 'wholly' incurred in the course of your buisness., it would have been incurred anyway. Having said that I think there are some situations where it's allowable.

For example, I fitted a kitchen 100's of miles from my base, and myself and a staff member stayed in a B&B for one night. The B&B is claimable as far as I know.. and perhaps the food eaten.. but in other situations it's not possible. (I would claim the entire B&B bill, but nothing else, although I would pay for dinner for the staff member, and pints)


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## Dinarius

Apologies for any confusion caused......

My point is simply this, forget the ins and outs of what you can and cannot claim from Revenue.

I'm simply saying that if you are working away from your base, you should be charging the CLIENT mileage and subsistence. 

I do. I have a lot of state funded clients and they don't bat an eyelid at me charging them civil service rates for mileage and subsistence. If you are working away from home overnight you are most certainly sleeping to work (whatever about eating to work) and should charge accordingly.

Once again, apoligies for any confusion caused.

D.

That's all.


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## JoeB

Well yes, you can charge the client whatever you can get away with.

Perhaps this reflects more on the 'state funded' clients who simply pay bills, and don't bat eyelids, or seek more competative alternatives. But perhaps not, I simply don't know.


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## T McGibney

Dinarius said:


> Apologies for any confusion caused......
> 
> My point is simply this, forget the ins and outs of what you can and cannot claim from Revenue.
> 
> I'm simply saying that if you are working away from your base, you should be charging the CLIENT mileage and subsistence.
> 
> I do. I have a lot of state funded clients and they don't bat an eyelid at me charging them civil service rates for mileage and subsistence. If you are working away from home overnight you are most certainly sleeping to work (whatever about eating to work) and should charge accordingly.



Opinions differ as to whether it is better in individual situations (1) to bill separately for incidental costs like postage, stationery and travel costs; or (2) to take these costs into account when setting prices and to bill the stated price without separate additions.

Personally, I would normally agree more with the latter approach, but each one to their own.


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