# Why are they afraid to name the Golden Circle?



## Duke of Marmalade (19 Feb 2009)

First, BC says he doesn't want to name the 10 because that would prejudice a trial.

Then he says it is because he doesn't know them.

Now we are told that because they are shareholders of Anglo they are bound by banking confidentiality to their customers.

Now this last is the most disingenuous of all, what happened to "whistleblowing" ala money laundering? And anyway weren't the banks forced, rightly, to disclose their offshore tax cheats?

If this was all legal and above board, and Anglo's lawyers say it was, why aren't at least some of the 10 coming out? There must be sumfin' rotten here if they prefer to let this "whodunnit?" develop an enormous head of steam which will surely explode eventually.


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## mathepac (19 Feb 2009)

A group, as in a collective proper noun, was apparently named in the Dáil today. The person using the name seemed to be referring to a document.


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## Bedlam (19 Feb 2009)

At a guess, I would say it is the one & only Bertie Ahern

Bedlam


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## tiger (19 Feb 2009)

Even with what little we're seeing with Sean FitsP's loans, the "golden circle", IL&Ps window dressing activities, I find it hard to believe that some laws have not been broken.

How long will it be before we see the Director of Corporate Enforcement act?
I don't think world financial markets will tolerate "tribunal timeframes" on this one.


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## horatio1 (19 Feb 2009)

The government, or at least the Fianna Fail/PD part of it has been in power to long.Many Fianna Fail voters were almost swayed due to this fact in the last election.However in the last week they could see bad times were coming(sooner in fact than the people they were about to elect) and thought that the were better to stick with the devil they knew.
It has become abundently clear that they backed the wrong horse.The government has been reacing to events as they happen rather than trying to put plans in place for what is coming down the line in 6 months time.
This thinking has been partly guided by the fact that many of their long time supporters are know caught up in the crumbling house of cards that is Anglo.The rabbit in the headlights look on the Finance ministers face at each revelation is enough to realise how long they have left.Each time they paint over one crack a new bigger one arrives and as it all unravels there is one of the elite friends of the party on some board or authority resigning with enough money as to make them comfortable enough to stay silent.Like the boy with his finger in the whole in the dam they will soon run out of fingers.Whether the other crowd will do any better is questionable but at least they are not stained by the relationships brought about by being in power for most of the last 25 years.


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## Padraigb (19 Feb 2009)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Now we are told that because they are shareholders of Anglo they are bound by banking confidentiality to their customers.



It's not because they are shareholders; it's because they are customers of the bank.


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## lukegriffen (19 Feb 2009)

horatio1 said:


> However in the last week they could see bad times were coming... and thought that the were better to stick with the devil they knew.It has become abundently clear that they backed the wrong horse.



I'm glad F.Fail are in power now, if they'd been in opposition now, F Gael/Labour would have been left with all the muck, and FF's claim to better handling of the economy  has gone out the window.  
At least with the next election we should be rid of FF for hopefully at least 8 to 10 years.

I also cannot understand why they are so afraid of the bankers  & this circle.  Why did Lenihan say that Fitzpatrick's 87 million loan was 'disappointing'.  The guy looks like he's 5 foot nothing.  And why did the regulator get a pay-off ?    And then there's Fas...
The truth will out.  I just wish it would alll come out at the same time, and not in this current drip drip fashion.   If the politicians asked some economic journalists for assistance in reading some of the auditors reports, maybe things would move faster.
Lenihan : George, does a 7 billion inter-bank transfer matter ?
George Lee: Eh, yes it does minister.
Lenihan : But it's not in the chapter about loans, & we're only interested in loans. And they didn't summarise it in the main bullet points either. 
George Lee: That's true, but whenever you see a line of zeros, before the decimal point, with a positive integer in front....
 Lenihan : But George, it's not jumping out at me.
..

sorry, rant over....


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## theresa1 (20 Feb 2009)

Expect an election very shortly - Green's in meltdown over this.


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## dockingtrade (20 Feb 2009)

if they are so worried that if they name someone that it may affect a future prosecution, why wouldnt one of the 10 pay a journalist to leak the names and then cry foul?

These shares were bought by individuals who got loans (300m) to buy them. Can they be forced to use their personal wealth to pay back these loans? in other words why is the money lost?


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## Sunny (20 Feb 2009)

Padraigb said:


> It's not because they are shareholders; it's because they are customers of the bank.


 
I think what he meant was that apparently shareholders of banks are not supposed to have details of customers and since the Government is shareholder, it could not have access to the names. (This is what some Minister was sprouting off on the radio this morning). I never heard of that law myself. 

My question then becomes this. When the Government were doing due dilligence on Anglo, are they saying they looked at the large risk exposures but didn't see who the exposures were to? They must have had access to the names at some stage

The whole thing stinks.


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## DrMoriarty (20 Feb 2009)

The Minister was Demot Ahern and the law he quoted was the Central Bank Act of 1942.

Desperation hangs thick in the air. 

Sooner or later they're going to have to send in Charlie Bird to ask the hard questions.


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## Sunny (20 Feb 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> These shares were bought by individuals who got loans (300m) to buy them. Can they be forced to use their personal wealth to pay back these loans? in other words why is the money lost?


 
They were non-recourse loans. 75% of the loan was secured on the shares which are now worthless. The other 25% was supposed to be secured on personal assets but last I heard, there was a legal problem with the loan agreement and so the bank doesn't have a leg to stand on with regard to the 25%. Careless mistake or something more sinister? You choose.


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## ninsaga (20 Feb 2009)

If it can be proved that they have done nothing illegal - then they won't be named. If it is illegal then they can be named.


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## Sunny (20 Feb 2009)

Its gone beyond the question of legality. As taxpayers, if we are to lose €300 million on one transaction, we are entitled to know everything about it. How it was structured, who organised it, who were the borrowers, what was the legal advice received, was the regulator mis-lead, why wasn't the loan agreement water tight, what price were the shares bought at etc etc etc. There are plenty of questions that need to be answered whether they broke the law or not. We will know about it if one of their developer customers goes bust owning the bank a couple of hundred million. They won't be hiding behind confidentiality in that case. This transaction is no different.


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## efm (20 Feb 2009)

As a customer of Anglo Irish Bank as a depositor and a borrower I do not want any shareholder (i.e. my nosey neighbour!) knowing my business.  One of the fundamental principals of banking is that your business is confidential. 

If I am one of the golden 10 and I have done nothing wrong why should my private banking business be debated publically?


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## G123 (20 Feb 2009)

theresa1 said:


> Expect an election very shortly - Green's in meltdown over this.


 
If I'm not mistaken, the government could change without a General Election if the greens walk.

Another Rainbow Coalition?


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## Sunny (20 Feb 2009)

efm said:


> As a customer of Anglo Irish Bank as a depositor and a borrower I do not want any shareholder (i.e. my nosey neighbour!) knowing my business. One of the fundamental principals of banking is that your business is confidential.
> 
> If I am one of the golden 10 and I have done nothing wrong why should my private banking business be debated publically?


 
Because simply put there are more important things at stake here such as the credibility of the Irish Financial system (whats left of it!). If they have done nothing wrong, they don't have anything to worry about. Look, they were offered a one way bet on shares. They couldn't lose. Everyone would have jumped at the chance. Unfortuantly for them, it is now €300 million of taxpayers money that has been lost. We have a right to know EVERYTHING about how that money was lost. I have no problem waiting for all the investigations to end and a report issued instead of having trial by media but I do expect them to be named at some stage.


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## Duke of Marmalade (20 Feb 2009)

This is developing a right head of steam. The anonymity is starting to backfire on the 10 with even minister DA saying on MI that he wants them "outed", yep that's what he said. If they had come out early doors people would be much more circumspect for legal and other reasons but now it seems to be open season across all parties against the 10.

EK must be very confident there are no FG bigwigs in there. Maybe it will be a massive anti-climax, just a bunch of faceless partyless golden circlers, but I don't think so.


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## HenryW (20 Feb 2009)

Sunny said:


> They were non-recourse loans. 75% of the loan was secured on the shares which are now worthless. The other 25% was supposed to be secured on personal assets but last I heard, there was a legal problem with the loan agreement and so the bank doesn't have a leg to stand on with regard to the 25%. Careless mistake or something more sinister? You choose.


 

If there was a legal problem with the shareholder agreement and the bank has to write off €300m in loans due to their error then there has to be a VERY good case for shareholders to sue the bank for their error / omissions and their consequent losses.  I'm only surprised that lawyers have not yet advertised for shareholders who would like to join a class action.  Maybe it will start.


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## Sunny (20 Feb 2009)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> EK must be very confident there are no FG bigwigs in there. Maybe it will be a massive anti-climax, just a bunch of faceless partyless golden circlers, but I don't think so.


 
I actually do think it will be an anti-climax. It will be the usual names as they were all big customers of Anglo. The only problem with FF is the Galway tent and the opinion that people have of it. If thats the worst that is revealed, its not too bad. FF can't really go any lower in the polls!

One possible problem could be Cowan admitting he knew about the problem with Sean Quinns stake through CFD's. Question then arises, what did he know about the solution? Beggers belief that the Regulator and the Department Of Finance considered Quinns stake to extremely dangerous with regard to the future of Anglo Irish Bank and yet did not go through Anglo's solution to the problem with a fine tooth comb.


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## Duke of Marmalade (20 Feb 2009)

In technical parlance they were given an open ended Put option on Anglo at 75% of its then price. My guess that would have had a market value of about €100M. Is it legal for any company to give away €100M irrespective of the motivation? Are there tax implications?

And another thing, this Nominee shareholding thing is, in general, a nonsense. Share registers are meant to be in the public domain - why have we allowed this intention to be subverted by Nominee holdings?

Anyone see the graphic on this story on RTE last night? The golden 10 were depicted as 10 silhouettes. I noted distinctly two women silhouettes (hair style, dress). I'd say RTE struggled to get the PC balance correct on that graphic.


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## Towger (20 Feb 2009)

Can some one please tell me is the Government/Nation a Shareholder in Anglo or an outright owner and what legal differences it would make.


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## efm (20 Feb 2009)

Sunny said:


> Because simply put there are more important things at stake here such as the credibility of the Irish Financial system (whats left of it!).


 
I don't agree and I believe that that is a very short term view.  Certain fundamentals of banking are, in my opinion, immutable and the support of these is vital if the financial services industry in this country is to ever recover.

All this is predicated on the assumption that the golden circle did nothing wrong.


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## Sunny (20 Feb 2009)

efm said:


> I don't agree and I believe that that is a very short term view. Certain fundamentals of banking are, in my opinion, immutable and the support of these is vital if the financial services industry in this country is to ever recover.
> 
> All this is predicated on the assumption that the golden circle did nothing wrong.


 
I am just back from various investor meetings in London, Milan and Frankfurt. Do you want to hazzard a guess what they all wanted to talk to me about? Their concerns weren't customer confidentiality. There won't be a long-term unless we restore confidence in the system. The reaction in Germany in particular had to be seen to believed (Having said that, they can hardly talk!). We are not talking about publishing Joe Bloggs banks details. We are talking about one transaction that has left the taxpayer with a potential bill of €300m. By all means go through the full due process of investigating the matter but the names will have to come out. 
I am hearing rumours of at least one institutional investor that is getting ready to sue. Its only a matter of time before it comes out one way or another.


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## Chocks away (20 Feb 2009)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Anyone see the graphic on this story on RTE last night? The golden 10 were depicted as 10 silhouettes. I noted distinctly two women silhouettes (hair style, dress). I'd say RTE struggled to get the PC balance correct on that graphic.


Two women silhouettes? PC balance correct? Could it not be the case of twelve males, an out of control wind machine, a badly fitting wig and a serious comb-over?


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## HenryW (20 Feb 2009)

Sunny said:


> I am hearing rumours of at least one institutional investor that is getting ready to sue. Its only a matter of time before it comes out one way or another.


 
The credibility of a country's entire banking system have been the subject of days of speculation.  Question have been raised (correctly) about the integrity of the political executive and financial regulators and their knowledge and involvement in key decisions of these instituions.  Delay in coming clean on everything in relation to these matters, and I mean everything, is gross stupidity by the political executive and will cause untold damage to this economy.  I actually can't believe that a game of Russian Roulette is being played.  This gamble with our reputation, at this time, will have disasterous future consequences for the entire financial services industry here.  Sorry to be so negative but it really will come to that.  Time to come clean.


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## UptheDeise (20 Feb 2009)

The reason why they won't name them is because the government is tied into this in some sort of underhanded way. If names are named then the beans will be spilled and more brown stuff will hit the fan, essentially uncovering more dodgy schemes and dealings tied up with politicians.


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## HenryW (20 Feb 2009)

These feeble people won't put the country first.  How shameful.


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## Eblanoid (20 Feb 2009)

Turns out that it wasn't €300m:

*Anglo loaned €451m to ten clients to buy shares in the bank*

[broken link removed]


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## Protocol (20 Feb 2009)

I don't really care who they 10 people are.

*I just want them to repay ALL their debts to the bank.*

They borrowed, bought an asset that lost value, but they still owe the loan to the bank.

The taxpayer who now owns the bank should not be exposed to any losses.


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## CCOVICH (20 Feb 2009)

Eblanoid said:


> Turns out that it wasn't €300m:
> 
> *Anglo loaned €451m to ten clients to buy shares in the bank*
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
*The page cannot be found*



The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable.Please try the following:

If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly.


Open the www.irishtimes.com home page, and then look for links to the information you want. 
Click the Back button to try another link.
[*]Click Search to look for information on the Internet.
*HTTP 404 - File not found*
*Internet Explorer *





Conspiracy?


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## Padraigb (20 Feb 2009)

CCOVICH said:


> *The page cannot be found*
> ...
> Conspiracy?



My system found it on the second try. Perhaps it's just very busy.


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## CCOVICH (20 Feb 2009)

Padraigb said:


> My system found it on the second try. Perhaps it's just very busy.


 
Indeed.  I found it just now as well.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Feb 2009)

Presumably Anglo could seek a refund of the money and initiate legal proceedings immediately if they do not repay it.

The court case would then be public.

Brendan


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## tiger (20 Feb 2009)

Not used to reading annual reports, but looking at the Anglo one makes no sense
http://www.rns-pdf.londonstockexchange.com/rns/6782N_-2009-2-20.pdf
They've made profits of €784M
They've a lending impairment provision of €724 for this year, but surely the loans for the share purchase & director loans are nearly half this already?
Customer lending in Ireland from 2007 to 2008 increased from €37Bn to €42.8Bn a 16% increase at a time property sales and the economy in general were already slowing dramatically.  Either they have alot of recent (= risky) loans and/or a sizeable amount of the payments on the €37Bn is being "rolled up"?


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## roro123 (20 Feb 2009)

*[FONT=&quot]Why are they afraid to name the Golden Circle?[/FONT]**

[FONT=&quot]Because 451 million could have paid for rail services, or motorways or schools or hospitals or expanding broadband services ,or upgrading the electricity network or been allocated towards attracting Foreign Direct Investment or a multitide of other beneficial projects, and if the names come out and the dots are joined so much outrage will be felt that the Government could not last another hour or nevermind another day.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Whats really after going down? Unknown "Investors" were given an opportunity to acquire 10% stake of one of the main banks in the country.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Lets list out potential problems with the way this "Golden Circle" deal could have legal implications.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1.They had access to insider information, due to the fact they were approached -illegal[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2.They were lent money by an institution to purchase shares in that institution[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-dodgy and most likely illegal.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. The security for the loans were for the most part on the shares themselves, with no recourse if the security became valueless.- intentional bad management. Goes against everything that banking relies on.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4.They're actions inflated the share price of the institution and didn't reflect the real value of the shares - illegal[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. Having this insider information could have led even those in the Golden Circle or any Brokers/Dealers involved to realise that the price is artifical and therefore "Shorting Anglo" would be a safe bet.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. There is nothing to say that even these in the "Golden Circle" couldn't have easily taken short positions in Anglo alongside their holdings and reaped montrous profits from shorting the stock while still holding a stake and then dumping the shares at a loss - insider info can be invaluable. [/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]7. It may not be possible to name them from their 1% stakes as shareholders, but they certainly could be named in Stubs Gazzette or in the Dáil under Dáil privilege due to defaulting on their loan repayments  (if they have defaulted) and otherwise from the loan agreement forms which they or their representatives would have signed.[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Naming them is better than due process, because ultimately spending 2 months in an open prison in Wicklow and out in 2 weeks for good behaviour isn’t justice, (White collar crime).[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Its been said that it could scupper any investigation as it could prevent prosecution- ha! Both Lenihan and Hanafin were on the ball from the word go by saying that there was nothing illegal about Fitzpatricks loans, not a month or two after the story broke but immediately- sounds to me like they had loads of info back then to come to that conclusion. [/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]This was a massive fraudulent operation and has involved many different parties, of which everyone who works (or not) and has to pay tax or rely on services just to get by is a victim. These fools (or were they?) have wiped out the efforts of many workers to build this economy, a career, a family , a community. Ireland is a worse place because of them and their ilk. 
[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_1010395.shtml  [/FONT]*

*[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1004/bank.html[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0621/fitzpatricks.html[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]Let us have some leadership, lets hold this government to account for their lack of leadership. Call a general election because as sure as nobody will go to jail, the eyes of the international investment community are no-longer on our banks and their failures and scandals, but more on our government and their ability to manage this dreadful debacle. Call an election and give us a chance to test the mandate of this current bunch about whether they have the will of the people behind them. Thats the only justice
[/FONT]*


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## theresa1 (21 Feb 2009)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5781014.ece


Four of the ten!


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## Complainer (22 Feb 2009)

theresa1 said:


> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5781014.ece
> 
> 
> Four of the ten!


I've met two of the four in person. Does that mean I'm in the circle?


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## theresa1 (22 Feb 2009)

Complainer are you in the circle? No your not - the remaining names will be out shortly. It's not a laughing matter, ask Gillian Bowler about the alleged verbal abuse she had in Donnybrook recently.


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## tiger (22 Feb 2009)

theresa1 said:


> ... ask Gillian Bowler about the alleged verbal abuse she had in Donnybrook recently.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gillian-bowler-is-abused-on-street-1649057.html
Once again it's the pensioners leading the way!


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## theresa1 (22 Feb 2009)

Gerry Gannon, Joe O’Reilly, Seamus Ross and Jerry Conlan


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## tiger (22 Feb 2009)

tiger said:


> Customer lending in Ireland from 2007 to 2008 increased from €37Bn to €42.8Bn a 16% increase at a time property sales and the economy in general were already slowing dramatically.  Either they have alot of recent (= risky) loans and/or a sizeable amount of the payments on the €37Bn is being "rolled up"?


Table A2.2 private sector lending to irish residents 
[broken link removed]
Suggests private sector credit grew by 4% last year, and residential mortgage lending fell.


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## DerKaiser (23 Feb 2009)

Protocol said:


> I don't really care who they 10 people are.
> 
> *I just want them to repay ALL their debts to the bank.*
> 
> ...


 
The first thing to be done is to see if they can repay the amounts. It appears they cannot be touched for 75% of the loan if they default on the Anglo loan, but can they default if they have other successful businesses e.g. a private hospital?

I've heard anecdotally that investors with large debts are re-arranging their assets in such a way as they can default on loans secured on now worthless land banks, shares, etc

Secondly, though I'm sure the majority will feel it the primary objective, is to investigate if this transaction (effectively giving away a free PUT option i.e. the right to sell at a set minimum price) should lead to prosecutions.  This option would have had a significant market value at the time due to the volatility of the share price.

Thirdly, directors remuneration and incentives need to be looked at. Artificially pumping up a bank's share price using bank loans should not lead to a gain for those managing the business. One idea is that directors should never be allowed to sell shares paid as bonus so that their interests are very much aligned to profitability and dividends over the longer term.


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## PaddyW (23 Feb 2009)

Read a newspaper report this morning and seemingly the golden circle may be able to offset these losses against future gains. Is this true and should this surely be stopped?


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## Bronte (23 Feb 2009)

DerKaiser said:


> I've heard anecdotally that investors with large debts are re-arranging their assets in such a way as they can default on loans secured on now worthless land banks, shares, etc


  I was wondering this myself.  How can they prevent the bank claiming back the 25% on their personal assets.  The bank/government should put a hold on their assets, so as they cannot dilute, sell or put offshore a certain amount to cover their exposure to Anglo Irish.  Would anything they do to avoid the debt be able to be set aside by a court.  There will of course be plenty of legal protections in place to ensure that they don't get away with paying zero back.


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## foghorn (24 Feb 2009)

Golden Circ said:


> Watch this space:



 Private Registrant       
      A Happy DreamHost Customer
      417 Associated Rd #324
      Brea, CA 92821
      US
      +1.2139471032

Hmm, registered in the US, does that get around libel laws?


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## extopia (24 Feb 2009)

I'm surprised the Irish media haven't picked up on the Times Online story naming the four. Libel worries?


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## MB05 (24 Feb 2009)

It was in the print version of the Times on Sunday too not just the times online.


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## MandaC (25 Feb 2009)

I have it on strong authority who another one is as well.  Kind of in the same vein as the others, it wont be long coming out.


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## Padraigb (25 Feb 2009)

There have been suggestions that the members of the Golden Circle have done nothing illegal (Like other members of AAM I am not in a position to make an informed judgement on that; unlike some of them, I do not propose to make an uninformed judgement).

I am sure that all the names will be known in the near future. What intrigues me is why these people stay in the shadows. If they have done nothing wrong, and as it appears inevitable that they will be publicly named, it would seem to be in their interest to take the initiative by announcing their involvement and defending their position in conjunction with such an announcement; much better than appearing on page 1 of one of the redtops, and then having to fight a rearguard action.

[From my forthcoming work "PR is Really Easy", page 1. I'll work on page 2 next week.]


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## ninsaga (25 Feb 2009)

Of course the other problem here is that these 10 are extremely wealthy & they will hire the best law firms that money can buy & they will fight the state for years if it needs. This is going to cost a friggin fortune. Nevertheless though, the judicial process must hold its course here & if there are wrong doings then it must be met with justice.


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## csirl (25 Feb 2009)

Padraigb said:


> It's not because they are shareholders; it's because they are customers of the bank.


 
I dont see how the names are confidential.

Anglo is no longer listed on the stock market, so shareholder confidentiality is irrelevant. It is a 100% private company that is owned by the taxpayer. Any owner of any business has access to their own customer database and knows everything about the financial arrangement they have with their customer. It doesnt matter if a company has 1 owner, or in the case of Anglo, a few million. We, as owners of the company, have a right to know about our own customers.


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## Padraigb (25 Feb 2009)

csirl said:


> ... Any owner of any business has access to their own customer database and knows everything about the financial arrangement they have with their customer...



That's simply not true. It goes right against a fundamental principle of company law (the separation of ownership and control) and, as has already been pointed out here, also goes against banking law.

Further, even if a sole shareholder was in possession of such information, it does not follow that there is a right to disclose it.


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## finisklin (25 Feb 2009)

So if one submitted a Freedom of Information request to Anglo, would they reveal the names of the Golden Circle to the requester?


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## Padraigb (25 Feb 2009)

finisklin said:


> So if one submitted a Freedom of Information request to Anglo, would they reveal the names of the Golden Circle to the requester?



Can I submit a FOI request to your bank to get details of your account?


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## Bronte (25 Feb 2009)

Padraigb said:


> Can I submit a FOI request to your bank to get details of your account?


 No you can't because that's confidential but as I'm now part owner of Anglo, I am the bank and I'm entitled to know everything and everybody who has anything to do with Anglo, I think that's Csirl's point which I agree with. I wonder now could I write a letter to the current Head of my bank and ask him for a list of all my big customers and all their details?

The simple reason they are not giving us the names is because they want us to waste our energy on this and other conspiracy theories so we don't focus on the real things like the country collapsing.


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## finisklin (25 Feb 2009)

Yeah...I see your point except my bank isn't owned by the government (yet!!!). Strictly speaking if the government owns Anglo does that not mean that Anglo is covered by the FoI Acts?


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## Padraigb (25 Feb 2009)

Bronte said:


> No you can't because that's confidential but as I'm now part owner of Anglo, I am the bank and I'm entitled to know everything and everybody who has anything to do with Anglo, I think that's Csirl's point which I agree with. I wonder now could I write a letter to the current Head of my bank and ask him for a list of all my big customers and all their details?



If we follow your line of reasoning, you should have access to my Income Tax data and to my medical records from the time I was in a public hospital.

Anyway, you are not the owner of Anglo-Irish; the Minister for Finance, in his capacity as Minister, is the owner.

A pack baying for blood is a terrifying sight.


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## Eblanoid (25 Feb 2009)

Padraigb said:


> If we follow your line of reasoning, you should have access to my Income Tax data and to my medical records from the time I was in a public hospital.



In Norway all income tax records are published online.  Coincidentally(?), it seems to be one of the countries least affected by the current depression.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4318382.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/2321301.stm

(Yes, yes they also have oil and their own sovereign fund)


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## Padraigb (25 Feb 2009)

Eblanoid said:


> In Norway all income tax records are published online...



I don't think the Irish are ready for that yet. 

From the links you give, it appears that not all Norwegians are happy about the practice.


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## Joody1 (25 Feb 2009)

They have talked about that in the UK but was rejected, wonder why????


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## Rightly dun (25 Feb 2009)

I dont know why there is so much about the names of this so called Golden Circle and I also dont know why no one has looked at the Share register of Anglo around the time of this deal. The ten names should stick out like a sore thumb.


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## Padraigb (25 Feb 2009)

Rightly dun said:


> I dont know why there is so much about the names of this so called Golden Circle and I also dont know why no one has looked at the Share register of Anglo around the time of this deal. The ten names should stick out like a sore thumb.



They almost certainly won't. They are likely to be held by nominees of the beneficial owners.


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## Male Doon (25 Feb 2009)

There's an email doing the rounds at the moment which gives details of four of the individuals concerned (it is alleged!) including at least one FF tenter...not household names but all obviously well connected.


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## Eblanoid (25 Feb 2009)

Male Doon said:


> There's an email doing the rounds at the moment which gives details of four of the individuals concerned (it is alleged!) including at least one FF tenter...not household names but all obviously well connected.



There's no need to be so "smokes-and-daggers", as Bertie would say, because the 4 have been named in this thread (http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=813416&postcount=41) and in the sunday Times, as published here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5781014.ece


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## Bronte (26 Feb 2009)

Padraigb said:


> I don't think the Irish are ready for that yet.
> 
> From the links you give, it appears that not all Norwegians are happy about the practice.


 Farmers who received grants/payments last year had all the details published on line.  Why not ?

I've no interest in your medical records but I am interested in the debts owed by large developers et al that I am bailing out in Anglo Irish.


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## Eblanoid (26 Feb 2009)

Padraigb said:


> I don't think the Irish are ready for that yet.
> 
> From the links you give, it appears that not all Norwegians are happy about the practice.



Regardless, it must do wonders for transparency.


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