# boiler issues - move and replace ?



## stuckhere (14 Mar 2015)

Purchased 2 bed terraced house with boiler Vokera Mynute 16e, tightly fitted inside a cupboard on the side of a pretend- fireplace in the living room (by original development plan - built 2006/2007). As house was vacant for years and meter was taken off, we had to request a gas plumbing inspection to get the meter back, the gas installer we used has issued a Cert 1, but would not reconnect the boiler and service it in its current location, due to the space being too tight for servicing, not enough ventilation and the material of the cabinet not being fireproof, and the flue being concealed etc.. He proposed to hang it in the living room directly under the flue outlet, on the wall out to the garden or in the bedroom directly above. Apart from being unsightly, I think it will be very noisy, so we have asked for alternative locations - I suggested the kitchen, but they have to cut a lot of living room ceiling and extend pipes across living room into kitchen on the external wall in the small guest bathroom under the stairs, he says it could be done, also expensive but less than kitchen option and the sink will have to be taken off (and hopefully he meant 'moved to the opposite wall').  We are fairly upset by the whole unexpected issue and expense, but if it has to be done, we will go ahead, only it seems weird that the estate was built like that, there's a row of houses with same boiler in the same type of cabinet. Have regulations changed ? Or is the plumber making a fuss just to get us to do work we don't need. Will we have issues with regulations by fitting it in the bathroom - there is no shower or bathtub, but how far should the sink be ? We also still don't know whether the boiler is actually still working, apart from where it sits...! Any advice appreciated.

Fran


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## Shane007 (15 Mar 2015)

That particular boiler does require compartmental ventilation which would require 2no vents (1 high and 1 low) if directly to outside. They would be sized with a free air space of 7,965mm2 each.

With regard to the enclosure needing to be fire proof, this is not true. They are approved to be sited in enclosures such as kitchen cabinets, etc and these are not fire proof.

Mynute 16e's are decent little boilers, reliable and cheap maintain and fix. A newer HE boiler would obviously be better but I would seek recommendations for alternative opinions.


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## stuckhere (15 Mar 2015)

Thank you for the reply. The ideal scenario would have been of course to keep the same boiler where it is now... There are several other considerations we have to make and you seem very knowledgeable on the Vokera models- any chance we could ask you to take a look for a second opinion? We are based in north Dublin.  
Thanks,
Fran


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## Shane007 (16 Mar 2015)

I do cover Dublin but am not around that way for the next few weeks.

Another point is that Irish gas regs are not retrospective in that concealed extended flues are acceptable as long as certain measures are in place, such as CO alarm within the concealment interlocked with the appliance and a safety test is carried out with a calibrated flue gas analyiser.

It is recommended that flue joints are not concealed though.


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## stuckhere (17 Mar 2015)

Hi Shane,
is there any documents you could point me to in relation to concealed flues ? All I could find was this: 
http://www.hse.gov.uk/safetybulletins/fluesinvoids.htm
although it relates to the UK, it seems very relevant to Ireland, too and I wonder whether Board Gais should issue such a warning - to alert home owners that they have to have hatches fitted to allow for proper flue inspection and carbon monoxide detectors in the cavities, as you pointed out. There is also no mention of fireproofing the cavity/surface where the boiler is hanging (right now it's a plywood board)...  Maybe because our house was unoccupied for over two years and the meter had been disconnected, but the gas installer was fortunately very thorough. He had to cut a hole in the ceiling to check the flue, and he found it to be in a very bad, dangerous state. So we will need a new flue, but first we have to decide where to move the boiler to, if iit cannot stay tucked away inside the cabinet. We prefer not to have it hanging on the living room wall, unless we have really no alternative and we seem to be all in agreement that the nearest suitable location is the toilet under the stairs. This move however will cost us like a new boiler, plus we don't know whether the Mynute 16e will come around after its 2-year sleep once reconnected ! I am also a bit concerned by having a gas pipe running across the living room ceiling (below a bedroom), in order to get to the new location, and I've read somewhere that should preferably be only vertical pipes. If we 'invest' the money to move it we would like to have the certainty that it is a job done properly and that it will not cause us more problems in the future, say, with neighbours or future potential buyers. Tomorrow I plan to ring Board Gais and see if they can recommend anything, or have any objections to the proposed plan or can send someone competent to advise! Any comments or tips on all of the above are appreciated.
Thanks,
Fran


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## Shane007 (17 Mar 2015)

It's nothing to do with Bord Gais, I'm afraid. They are not a regulatory body, just a private company that supplies gas.

The regulation relates to IS813 2014, which is a NSAI and CER document administered through RGII.

[broken link removed]

Your RGI does seem to be thorough. If your budget allowed, I would recommend the installation of a new certified boiler and an upgraded safe gas system. It will benefit you in the long run and may eliminate many possible hardships of an unknown boiler that may or may not surpassed its end of life.


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## stuckhere (18 Mar 2015)

Thank you, Shane.
I am almost convinced that we should upgrade to a new Vokera model directly , or perhaps something else, as long as it is not too bulky and easily maintained.  I would also like to know your thoughts on running gas and water pipes across the ceiling, from current location to the new one (bathroom)-  is that something that we could regret in future or is it safe ? I just think the living room is no place for a boiler, but unfortunately they designed these houses to have the gas pipes come out in the living room, instead of kitchen, which is on the opposite side of the house.
Many thanks again for your help,
Fran


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## Shane007 (18 Mar 2015)

Gas and water can be run through floors. 
What has to be calculated with gas pressure losses is the pope sizing due to resistance and if under-sized, may affect the performance of any new appliance and existing appliances such as cookers and hobs.

Also remember that all the electrics has to re-routed also.

If you are doing a bigger job like that, I would give consideration to zoning also and avail of the SEAI grant. It has just been increased to €750.
On top of that, if you use an approved contractor for carbon credits, you could also avail of selling your credits to Electric Ireland. They are worth approx €650. It is paid as a credit on your utility bill.

So in total, it's worth approx €1,350, which is not to be sniffed at and you get a decent efficient system.


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## stuckhere (21 Mar 2015)

Hi Shane,
spoke to 6 RGI's in 3 days,  they all tell me Vokera is a second class boiler and nobody recommended upgrading to same brand, which is a pity, I thought! Maybe it's just because the model I have is surpassed and they are all more familiar with other brands ...? most popular recommendation was 'Ideal' (UK?), one mentioned Viessman and another one Baxi or Bosch - is there any chance of buying a new HE boiler keeping below 1K? We don't qualify for SEAI grants, it seems, as the house was completed and occupied in 2007. I will check out the carbon credits with Electric Ireland.
Thank you for all the suggestions,
Fran


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## Shane007 (21 Mar 2015)

HE Vokeras would be far from 2nd class boilers, in fact they are market leaders with their new iMynute range. No other boiler has a modulation ratio of 8:1. They are all 4:1.

Ideal are a very cheap boiler, a good boiler but very basic. Made in China for the mass market. Probably the cheapest boiler in Ireland. Not even a modulating pump in it. Also Ideal provide no warranty for them outside of the UK. The 5 year warranty is provided from the sole importer, Davies. If they go under, then no warranty unless Ideal themselves step in.
Bosch are a good solid boiler. Down-firing and robust. I'm personally not mad about the telescopic flue but they can be ordered with solid flues.
Viessmann, again very good boilers but very expensive. I can't see the extra value over their competitors except their stainless steel heat exchangers. A gain in exchanger quality but a loss in efficiency heat transfer.


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