# Legal rights regarding LUAS fine?



## ryanj8

Hi,

I was recently on the LUAS and when I failed to produce a ticket in time I was issued a fine. I was told if I found my ticket I could send it to the Veolia transport office and I wouldn't have to pay the fine. I found the ticket (which clearly stated it was valid for the time and date that I was on the LUAS) and appealed the fine. However I got a letter back a month later saying that they had considered my appeal but the fine still stood. Do I have any legal rights regarding this? Can they (or are they legally entitled to) still fine me even though I have a valid ticket for the journey?

Thanks


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## bond-007

I suspect you are on a looser here. You did not produce a ticket on demand.

Contact a solicitor for further advice.


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## sparkeee

why did you not produce the ticket when requested?


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## Smashbox

Perhaps the time frame was too big, I mean, you could have easily spent time scouting around trying to find a ticket valid at your travel times.


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## davidoco

ryanj8 said:


> they had considered my appeal but the fine still stood.


 
They know that when you got off you rummaged in the bins near the stop for a used ticked which you then sent in. Oldest trick in the book.


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## McCrack

davidoco said:


> They know that when you got off you rummaged in the bins near the stop for a used ticked which you then sent in. Oldest trick in the book.


 
haha indeed and they also probably have it on CCTV as well...hand in the bin for a couple minutes.


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## sparkeee

i still dont understand why you did not just show the ticket when asked,i travel on the luas i have the ticket in my hand or in my pocket,its not the sort of thing you buy and then throw away before you get on the tram.


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## so-crates

If you have a season ticket sometimes you may not have quite so readily to hand - I have once gotten as far as the customer service guy having taken all my details before I found mine! I hadn't had to take it out for a while and I had put it somewhere "safe" then forgotten where exactly that was! I found it just as he finished as I decided to have one last rummage for it.


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## Sue Ellen

ryanj8 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was recently on the LUAS and when I failed to produce a ticket in time I was issued a fine. I was told if I found my ticket I could send it to the Veolia transport office and I wouldn't have to pay the fine. I found the ticket (which clearly stated it was valid for the time and date that I was on the LUAS) and appealed the fine. However I got a letter back a month later saying that they had considered my appeal but the fine still stood. Do I have any legal rights regarding this? Can they (or are they legally entitled to) still fine me even though I have a valid ticket for the journey?
> 
> Thanks



As the Inspectors regularly explain to people 'if you find your valid ticket simply forward it on with a copy of the ticket and they will cancel the fine' I would write to Veolia and ask them to explain why they have rejected your appeal.


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## Smashbox

The OP hasnt checked back with us... strange


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## ryanj8

Thanks for everyone's helpful advice. I didn't produce it at the time because I'd put it in my bag and it ended up between the pages of a book I was reading. It wasn't until I got off the luas and removed everything from my bag that I found it. Obviously I regret not keeping it in my hand but unfortunately it's too late to think about that. When they check the luas tickets they clip them therefore I couldn't have got it off someone on the same luas as me. If they are not going to except a ticket when you appeal the situation they should stop telling people to forward the ticket onto them and they'll cancel the fine. Clearly they're lying as I've yet to hear of anybody winning an appeal


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## dereko1969

but, for example, if you had found a ticket in the bin when you got off the luas, that wouldn't have been clipped if it had been from the previous train. how many people have you asked who've appealed their fine? i wouldn't go extrapolating from that small sample.


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## bond-007

Tickets are not inspected or clipped for every journey.


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## SLS

I had a similar issue

Had a ticket but it fell out of my purse and ended up in caught in my umbrella so of course when I looked for the ticket I couIdnt find it

Of course didnt find it until the next time it rained, the next day..

Didnt help my appeal though, I didnt even bother exploring other options as given the way the ticket inspectors practially stalk customers I figured I didnt have a leg to stand on!


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## ryanj8

I understand that I could have found the ticket from a journey that wasn't my own and hence not inspected. However as I had a valid ticket and the fine was still upheld I'd like to know under what circumstances an appeal would be successful. Does anyone know of any?


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## bond-007

You would have to take your chances in court.


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## Sue Ellen

I've heard them tell people with annual tickets who have forgotten their tickets that they will issue the fine and that they should just send in a copy of their ticket with the fine and it will be wiped.  It would be interesting to see what does actually happen in these cases.

Call the Joe Duffy show and see if they can highlight your case as it does seem unfair.


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## Towger

On a side note there was a letter in the Metro a few months ago that said they are only legally allowed to fine people while on the trams. If you get fined after getting off on the platform whey will let you off if you complain.


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## bond-007

Ha ha.

You really need to run away fast as they have no powers of arrest or detention.


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## markpb

Towger said:


> On a side note there was a letter in the Metro a few months ago that said they are only legally allowed to fine people while on the trams. If you get fined after getting off on the platform whey will let you off if you complain.



I don't think that's true. RPA own almost all the platforms too so you're still on their property when they issue the fine.


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## Towger

markpb said:


> I don't think that's true. RPA own almost all the platforms too so you're still on their property when they issue the fine.



I think the 'problem' is more to do with the wording of the Act used to issue the fines, rather than who owns the properity. You also have to remember the the RPA does not run the Luas.


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## dave28

If a person is dishonest enough to try to avoid paying a luas fare, wouldnt they just give a false name and address when asked for their details  ?? I know its a serious enough thing to risk but whats to stop them.


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## bond-007

Nothing.


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## theresa1

If I buy a ticket say €2.10 for the Luas in the morning is it valid all day for the one trip. I plan to get it in the morning and use it later that afternoon. I have never been on the Luas. Basically has it a time limit? - I will use it the same day.


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## NovaFlare77

theresa1 said:


> If I buy a ticket say €2.10 for the Luas in the morning is it valid all day for the one trip. I plan to get it in the morning and use it later that afternoon. I have never been on the Luas. Basically has it a time limit? - I will use it the same day.


 
I believe it has a time limit of 90 minutes from the time of purchase. The exception would of course be all day passes, or the like.

EDIT: Just checked the LUAS website and single tickets are valid for ninety minutes from the time of issue. If it's a return trip, the first trip must be completed within 90 minutes of issue. [broken link removed].


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## theresa1

Thanks - will wait and get it in the afternoon just before getting on.


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## elcato

I successfully appealed a fine. I received it for not having 'tagged on' when traveling on the Luas. I basically tagged on at 11 pm and went to a shop as the next Luas was not for a 10 minutes. When I came back I tagged on again which effectively was tagging me off. Amazingly I was charged for the fare as per my smart card so I explained in a letter that either you should not be able to tag off at the same stop within a cretain time limit or that it should not cost you anything. I was able to show the inspector my history on the spot regarding the tag on/tag off but they issued a ticket anyway. They accepted my explanation. Lesson I learned was to try and remember tagging on when a bit under the influence.


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## so-crates

Far as I know elcato there is a time limit between tags at the same stop. I have tried the double tag at one stop (definitely less than your ten minutes though) and it wouldn't let me tag on or off the second time. (Why? you ask. Because I wasn't able to travel then and as I had tagged on I would have been charged the full four zone fare for not tagging off)


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## MugsGame

Towger said:


> On a side note there was a letter in the Metro a few months ago that said they are only legally allowed to fine people while on the trams. If you get fined after getting off on the platform whey will let you off if you complain.



I once ran into a LUAS inspector near the exit from the platform. By which point people could legitimately have binned tickets or (as in my case!) tagged off. He was standing beyond the last card reader on the platform and was all set to issue me with a fine because obviously I'd "never tagged on". He didn't seem to understand or want to admit that this was a silly place to be checking tickets!

A few weeks ago I tagged on and then heard an announcement that LUASes were delayed "due to a Fun Run near St. James's.". There was no indication of when the next LUAS would be so I walked to my destination and wasn't passed by a LUAS in the same direction during that time. I haven't bothered trying to claim a refund for the journey I didn't make due to the service outage...



> Why? you ask. Because I wasn't able to travel then and as I had tagged on I would have been charged the full four zone fare for not tagging off



Ditto, I had to tag off at my destination in the above case to avoid the maximum fare, and couldn't tag off when I started walking.


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## elcato

> Far as I know elcato there is a time limit between tags at the same stop. I have tried the double tag at one stop (definitely less than your ten minutes though) and it wouldn't let me tag on or off the second time.


This happened 18 months ago so it looks like they may have taken my advice/suggestion on board.



> I once ran into a LUAS inspector near the exit from the platform. By which point people could legitimately have binned tickets or (as in my case!) tagged off. He was standing beyond the last card reader on the platform and was all set to issue me with a fine because obviously I'd "never tagged on". He didn't seem to understand or want to admit that this was a silly place to be checking tickets!


As a matter of interest were you aware that you can insert your card into the machine and press history and your last ten or so logs are there. Amazing the inspector was not aware of this.


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## MugsGame

> were you aware that you can insert your card into the machine and press history and your last ten or so logs are there. Amazing the inspector was not aware of this.



No! It was a few years ago so maybe this feature wasn't available on the machines then. Though as we've already established this particular inspector wasn't thinking very clearly!


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## so-crates

Far as I know, both the limitation on the tag on-tag off and the ability to review your history has been available on the smart card from the start.


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## Sue Ellen

elcato said:


> I was able to show the inspector my history on the spot regarding the tag on/tag off but they issued a ticket anyway.



IMHO this is an indicator of the pressure they are under to reach their daily quota.

I find it very annoying to see people get tickets for silly things like this whilst they allow others to get off and buy a ticket or just put them off the tram.  The latter happens regularly on our line with giggly teenagers.

Could be my imagination but I feel that of late there are a lot less inspectors on the red line.


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## Complainer

elcato said:


> As a matter of interest were you aware that you can insert your card into the machine and press history and your last ten or so logs are there. Amazing the inspector was not aware of this.


Never knew this - thanks for the info. Do you mean the tag on/off machine, or the ticket selling machine?


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## Sue Ellen

Complainer said:


> Never knew this - thanks for the info. Do you mean the tag on/off machine, or the ticket selling machine?


 
Ticket selling machine.  You'll be lucky if you can read the screen with the sun these days.  I tried three machines the other day and could not see a thing on any of them because of the strong sunlight.  It must also have something to do with the plastic cover on the screen.


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## europhile

What's this tagging thing about?


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## so-crates

If you have a Luas smart card europhile, in order to travel on the tram you have to touch the card to a reader at the start and the end of the journey, that is called "tagging". When you tag on to start the journey, the full fare (four zones for the Red and three zones for the Green line) is deducted from your card balance. When you tag off you are credited the difference between the full fare and the fare to the stop you exit at.


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## europhile

Thanks.  I didn't know how it worked.

When are we EVER going to get integrated ticketing in Dublin?


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## Sue Ellen

Hi Europhile,

See here for details    I often wonder though if the Smart card is worth the bother because regularly forget to tag off and therefore am charged for journey to terminus   They are handy though if you are running for the tram and don't have to wait to buy a ticket especially at places like Jervis.

Your integrated ticket question is another story.


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## Complainer

europhile said:


> When are we EVER going to get integrated ticketing in Dublin?


[broken link removed]


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## so-crates

ryanj8 said:


> Thanks for everyone's helpful advice. I didn't produce it at the time because I'd put it in my bag and it ended up between the pages of a book I was reading. It wasn't until I got off the luas and removed everything from my bag that I found it. ...


 


legalrights said:


> i still dont understand why you did not just show the ticket when asked,i travel on the luas i have the ticket in my hand or in my pocket,its not the sort of thing you buy and then throw away before you get on the tram.


 
Hope that explains why the OP didn't show the ticket legalrights.


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## so-crates

europhile said:


> Thanks. I didn't know how it worked.
> 
> When are we EVER going to get integrated ticketing in Dublin?


 
 Integrated ticketing is on it's way! Have a look at the [broken link removed] website for details ... course I do recall reading in the Irish Times a couple of years ago that integrated ticketing was first mooted for Dublin in 1904 ....


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## deeheg

Hi well, I used the luas for about the 3rd time on sat evening, and we freezing i saw the inspector on trams and got on cos i thought i could pay him! no he asked for name and address and Id which i gave cos i thought could pay the fare, no a bloody fine, well I am going to write and appeal !


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## sam h

deeheg, you don't have a hope - they have never taken money on the Luas.

Reckon you'll just have to cough up the fine


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## so-crates

Um deeheg you don't have a leg to stand on. There are notices plastered over most stops and on each door of the tram reminding you to have a ticket. Ignorance is not an excuse.


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