# 10% pay cut on the cards for me



## Airtight (5 Mar 2009)

Myself and another 100 employees got told yesterday that a pay cut of 10% and pay freeze is on the cards with in the next couple of weeks.

I don't mind that, if they tell me I will have a job in a year or two years time.

What your opinion on pay cuts, I think prices are on the way down so should wages.


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## dinjoecurry (5 Mar 2009)

If the cuts are needed for the business to survive well fair enough .If its just to increase profits that are already there I think that would be bad.Is everyone including ALL management taking a cut?


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## kkelliher (5 Mar 2009)

I took a 17% pay cut last July and I am still getting laid off tomorrow so nothing is guaranteed at the present.


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## shesells (5 Mar 2009)

When I asked the people at employmentrights.ie about pay cuts they said you have to agree to it. Otherwise it's an unlawful deduction from wages.


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## Airtight (5 Mar 2009)

What are the implications if you don't agree to it and it happens anyway? You then are let go, can you  bring the employer up for breach of contract, is there a time limit on bring these cases forward?

You can see, I'm thinking a head


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## shesells (5 Mar 2009)

Yes you can bring a case against them..can't remember which act it's under though, I have notes somewhere.


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## Airtight (7 Mar 2009)

shesells said:


> Yes you can bring a case against them..can't remember which act it's under though, I have notes somewhere.



you made my laugh with the last comment "I have notes somewhere", sounds like there might be course somewhere on this sort of stuff that youve attended.


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## patftrears (7 Mar 2009)

Airtight said:


> What are the implications if you don't agree to it and it happens anyway?


Then it is breech of contract



Airtight said:


> You then are let go, can you  bring the employer up for breach of contract, is there a time limit on bring these cases forward?


If they let you go because you didn't accept the new terms it is unfair dismissal.


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## Airtight (7 Mar 2009)

So a breach of contract occurs after the your first pay slip shows a reduction (assuming no agreement was reached). So from this point on, how long does your right to compensation extent for?


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## shesells (8 Mar 2009)

Airtight said:


> you made my laugh with the last comment "I have notes somewhere", sounds like there might be course somewhere on this sort of stuff that youve attended.



No. The reply time to emails from employmentrights.ie is 15 days so I had to call them to get the info I needed and I took notes while I was on the phone to them!


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## rmelly (8 Mar 2009)

patftrears said:


> Then it is breech of contract
> 
> 
> If they let you go because you didn't accept the new terms it is unfair dismissal.


 
And if they make you redundant - is this unfair dismissal?


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## shipibo (8 Mar 2009)

rmelly said:


> And if they make you redundant - is this unfair dismissal?



You would have a very strong case for Unfair Dismissal if you were made mandatorily redundant due to refusal in taking pay cut.


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## Airtight (9 Mar 2009)

hhmmmm.. interesting stuff


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## JoeRoberts (9 Mar 2009)

In unfair dismissal the very max you can get through the rights comm or EAT is 2 yrs salary. This is very rarely awarded. Any redundancy you got is then deducted from the unfair dismissals award.
Do your calculation before considering this as if you have long service and a reasonable redundancy there may not be a big difference even if you win your case. Reinstatement is rare. 
The unfair dismissal award is also taxable, much of your redundancy may not be.


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## shipibo (10 Mar 2009)

If it was redundancy or Unfair Dismissals, I agree with you Joe ....

Solicitor or HTTP://WWW.FLAC.IE maybe able to help as if this was case, what stops all employers imposing pay cuts with threat of redundancy unless you comply.


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## dinjoecurry (10 Mar 2009)

The employer could put everyone on short time 3 day week that would save him 40%


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## Airtight (11 Mar 2009)

I don't think I would mind so much the 3 day week, I would still be in a job, as long as I got my full pay pro-rata.


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## Exclaim (12 Mar 2009)

Hi Airtight 
I got a letter re ten per cent cut with my pay slip last week. As far as I know and have been told you must have written consent from an employee to reduce their salary. If the employer does not then its an unlawfull reduction. If you are made redundant as a result of your refusal then you have a case for unfair dismissal. The maximum reward for this by the rights commissioner is as described by another reply to this. However you may be able to go another route. There was a case in the courts last week re constructive dismissal. I have a solicitor doing some work on this issue for me at the moment and will let you know the outcome. best of luck..


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## JoeRoberts (12 Mar 2009)

*Attached is an article in this weeks Industrial Relations News - some interesting points to consider as it covers a lot of issues that people are facing at the moment.*


*Law will adapt to recessionary times, says senior lawyer*



*KYRAN FITZGERALD*
*The economic crisis is “much worse than the 1980s”, in that it is hitting parts of society not impacted on that occasion, according to Emer Gilvarry, managing partner of law firm, Mason Hayes & Curran.*

Ms Gilvarry added that it was vital that the social partners work together to maintain industrial peace, while employers needed to stay within the law when implementing cutbacks within their organisations.

“If industrial disputes begin to happen again, it will not be good for the reputation of Ireland. Last week, we got a call (following a national strike and marches) from a company which had planned to locate seventy five jobs in Ireland, informing us that they had decided to move elsewhere.”

Ms Gilvarry, who was speaking at last week’s IRN conference, pointed out that a crisis acts as an accelerator of change. “Radical change only occurs as a result of crises.” Legislation needs to be interpreted in the light of changing circumstances. The concept of what is reasonable when change is being instituted is altered.

However, employers must be aware that while it may be reasonable to simply stand up and announce a pay cut for staff, for example, such a move is not lawful.

“It is important to stay within the law so that we do not end up trampling on peoples’ rights. Some people are taking the opportunity to vary employees’ terms and conditions, or make them redundant, without going through due process.”

Permanent job losses should be a last resort. “We should explore alternatives to redundancy.” Among these alternatives are (temporary) lay-offs and putting people on short-time. “This should be provided for by contract.”

MsGilvarry stressed that employers should engage in open and transparent consultation when reducing employees’ salaries and benefits. The Terms of the Employment Information Act, 1994-2001, requires employers to give written notice of changes.

*LEAD BY EXAMPLE*
Management must set an example by taking a hit. Fringe benefits should be reduced, or eliminated, including perhaps, the company car. “The relationship between employer and employee must be based on mutual trust.”

Changes in work conditions, and/or salary can be such as to constitute a fundamental breach of contract sufficient to justify an action for constructive dismissal.

Ms Gilvarry added, however, that judicial opinion on what constitutes such a fundamental breach has altered. She cited the 1984 judgment in ‘Industrial Rubber Products v Gillon’ where the Court held that a unilateral reduction in pay “even for good reason and for a relatively small amount” was a fundamental breach of the contract. “I do not believe that this (decision) would happen, now.”

While an employee “could consider resisting a pay cut, no lawyer would advise them to do so at this time.” An employee, in such circumstances, would be advised to take a payments of wages claim to a Rights Commissioner instead of resigning and claiming for constructive dismissal.

By way of summary, Ms Gilvarry advised management of “the need to stay calm, take advice, understand the partnership model and work as a partnership.”

“I do worry about the level of redundancies and the scar that is left from a societal point of view. If at all possible, one should try and keep one’s people. There are flexible ways of doing so.”


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## prince2008 (17 Mar 2009)

dinjoecurry said:


> If the cuts are needed for the business to survive well fair enough .If its just to increase profits that are already there I think that would be bad.Is everyone including ALL management taking a cut?


 
I think most people would agree to a pay cut in order to keep their jobs and for the business to survive.

however, how many companies are using the current situation as an excuse to cut costs.

My cousin is due to be hit with a 15% paycut - she has been working with this company for over 10 years and even in the good times did not get salary increases in line with inflation 'as the company could not afford it'.  Now in order for the company to survive they need to cut wages - this is a company that has recently taken on new staff and who senior manager claim business and 'non - business' expenses like there are no tomorrow. 

Bottom line is the paycuts need to be taken in order to fund wasteful expenditure in the company and because her boss probably feels because everyother company is bringing in pay cuts they should as well.


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