# Whinging Publicans



## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

I heard a few vintner spokesmen on different radio stations today, blaming everyone and everything, except the price of drink in pubs, for their woes!

Matt Cooper gave his guest an example of the huge cost of taking his family for soup and sandwiches etc, in a Co. Limerick pub, while on his way to Kerry for a family holiday.

Does anyone know of any publican who has said, "Flip this! I'm dropping my prices to get more customers into my pub." 

Not too many, I'd say. The vintner associations seem to give the impression that they'd rather go out of business than do so.

There was a small country pub a few miles from the village I lived in when I was growing up. The owner wasn't a member of a vintners' association and he was cheaper than all the other pubs around and did quite well.

If anyone knows of any pub going their own way on it, I'd be interested to know how they're doing.


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## z104 (26 Aug 2009)

On the news last night they mentioned a village that had 15 pubs but only has six now.
I was thinking, for a village six pubs is way too many.
I think it's probably a good sign that people are not wasting their time getting wasted as much.

As per Lex above, I do know a publican in Limerick that dropped his prices,( Was doing well, pup well supported) A group of nearby publicans approached him and said that he shouln't be doing that . He took their advice, put up the prices to the "correct price" and was out of business within 6 months.


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## Ciaraella (26 Aug 2009)

There was an interview on Drivetime yesterday about the Vinter's conference and the overwhelming text responses to the show were very unsympathetic. And rightly so as far as i'm concerned. €10.90 for a bacardi (no mixer) and a pint in dublin city a couple of weeks ago, totally overpriced as far as i'm concerned.


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## Pique318 (26 Aug 2009)

Niallers said:


> On the news last night they mentioned a village that had 15 pubs but only has six now.
> I was thinking, for a village six pubs is way too many.


That was Ballygar, Co.Galway. If I lived there I'd hope for as many pubs as possible. J/k 

Pubs aren't allowed to lower their prices to get people in during quiet times, as it encourages binge drinking, apparently. The Portobello was in the courts recently about this very issue.


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## VOR (26 Aug 2009)

I enjoy going to a pub and meeting up with old friends and making some new. The pub trade needs to cop on though to the ridiulous pricing of soft drinks in particular and alcoholic drinks in general. 
If I go in to watch a champions league match on a tuesday or wednesday night I expect one of two things. Either the pints should be cheaper or finger food should be complimentary. 
Otherwise, I'll stay at home with my €1 tiger beer and cook some ribs from Dunnes, thanks very much.


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## Ciaraella (26 Aug 2009)

VOR said:


> Otherwise, I'll stay at home with my €1 tiger beer and cook some ribs from Dunnes, thanks very much.


 
Well said. We have sky sports at home. At first i thought it was expensive but when you think that my boyfriend and i stay home, watch the match together with cheap beer and home cooked dinner rather than take away on the way home from the pub it works out much better. Especially because if you go to the pub for a match it's unlikely you'll leave straight after. Who can blame people for preferring to have their few drinks at home these days?


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## Caveat (26 Aug 2009)

Ciaraella said:


> Who can blame people for preferring to have their few drinks at home these days?


 
I hardly ever go out. 

Aside from the prices, I prefer to choose my own company, drink at my own pace, listen to music that we all agree on and have nice food to accompany our evening - whether it's a meal or finger food. It's a no-brainer for me - I don't like sports so I'm not missing out on any big screen atmosphere or anything either.

I have almost no reason to go the pub anymore. If it was cheaper I might be tempted occasionally though.


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## Ciaraella (26 Aug 2009)

I was never much for nightclubbing or pubs at the weekend anyway but even weekday pub nights have died a death. We have alot of friends in same situation as us in terms of buying houses, weddings, kids etc so now the group of lads will have a poker night in one house or watch a match in another. Much cheaper and as you say Caveat you can tailor the food and music to your own tastes.


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## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

Yes, we all seem to be thinking along similar lines. I'd love to see what would happen though, if pubs broke away from the vintners' associations and fixed their own prices. But, with current drink driving laws, things would never return to the way they were, especially in rural areas.

As a matter of interest, when you do go out "for wan," how much are you paying for your favourite tipple? I pay €3.60 in the local pubs here for a pint of Beamish.


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## callybags (26 Aug 2009)

It's all very well saying pubs should reduce prices to get more customers in.

There comes a point though, when it becomes unprofitable to operate.

The bottom line is that there are too many pubs for the number of customers willing to pay what is necessary to keep the pubs in profit.

The very same thing is happening the hotel trade.


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## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

With regard to VOR's and Ciaraella's posts above, I know a few guys who take turns hosting Champions League matches in their houses. They each bring their own beer and order Chinese or pizza or take away from the chipper. The host only has to provide hot plates and drinking glasses. They always have a great night for well less than what the beer would cost them in the pub.


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## z104 (26 Aug 2009)

I pay 4 quid for guinness in Limerick but was in Dublin recently and was charged 4.60


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## TarfHead (26 Aug 2009)

There's a piece in today's METRO about a pub in Dublin not being allowed to sell pints for €4.00 during the afternoon - some form of '_happy hour_'.

We were in Donegal on holiday 2 weeks ago and I was charged €3.90 for a pint of Guinness & €4.00 for a pint of Carlsberg in a restaurant.

How can €4.00 be a _'happy hour_' price  ? At that level he's already at the same margin as the Donegal restauranteur. Charging €4.00 and claiming that he's doing someone a favour is scalping, IMHO.


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## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

Niallers said:


> I pay 4 quid for guinness in Limerick but was in Dublin recently and was charged 4.60


 
I spent a few weeks in Kerry recently and Guinness was €3.80 in all the pubs. I'm always flabbergasted by the price of drink in Dublin when I go to matches, concerts etc. 

Callybags, you make good points but hotels will rarely miss an opportunity to screw the punter when they can. My friends are being quoted ridiculous amounts to stay in hotels in Dublin the weekend of the All Ireland Final.


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## markpb (26 Aug 2009)

Pique318 said:


> Pubs aren't allowed to lower their prices to get people in during quiet times, as it encourages binge drinking, apparently. The Portobello was in the courts recently about this very issue.



That's a line that the vintners are spinning. Pubs are, of course, allowed to reduce their prices, they're just now allowed to reduce the prices for a small part of the day - ala happy hour. A similar pub which was offering €2 drinks was not reprimanded by MEAS because they were €2 all day long.



TarfHead said:


> How can €4.00 be a _'happy hour_' price  ? At that level he's already at the same margin as the Donegal restauranteur. Charging €4.00 and claiming that he's doing someone a favour is scalping, IMHO.



Comparing prices in Dublin and Donegal is like comparing apples and oranges. The publican in Dublin pays higher rent, rates, insurance and possibly wages so the prices will always be higher - possibly not as high as they are now but expecting them to be the same is naive.


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## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

markpb said:


> That's a line that the vintners are spinning. Pubs are, of course, allowed to reduce their prices, they're just now allowed to reduce the prices for a small part of the day - ala happy hour. A similar pub which was offering €2 drinks was not reprimanded by MEAS because they were €2 all day long.


 
Very good point, Mark. The vintners' spin doctors on the radio get under my skin to the point that I find myself shouting at the radio! The guy on with Matt Cooper yesterday really brough out the worst in me.


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## z104 (26 Aug 2009)

The more the vintners complain the less I go to the pub.


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## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

Niallers said:


> The more the vintners complain the less I go to the pub.


 
I've turned that way also.


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## VOR (26 Aug 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> With regard to VOR's and Ciaraella's posts above, I know a few guys who take turns hosting Champions League matches in their houses. They each bring their own beer and order Chinese or pizza or take away from the chipper. The host only has to provide hot plates and drinking glasses. They always have a great night for well less than what the beer would cost them in the pub.


 
I got in Setanta and ESPN. A friend has Sky Sports. We alternate to watch the match depending on the channel it's on. We even have our "lucky" seats and glasses. Sad I know.

If he is away I watch the Sky Sports games online. 

It has meant that we go to the pub a lot less than we once did. Having said that, I do enjoy having the 3 pints in a pub with friends watching a game. The craic and banter is always good. I just wish it was a cheaper night out. I prefer Guinness so a good pub is always my preference.

But money is money and the 24 bottles of tiger/miller/coors light for €20 in Dunnes/Tesco keeps me going for 4 matches!! And no taxi home.


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## Ciaraella (26 Aug 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> As a matter of interest, when you do go out "for wan," how much are you paying for your favourite tipple? I pay €3.60 in the local pubs here for a pint of Beamish.


 

Our local is pretty reasonable. €2.50 for a bottle of Stella is a permanent price. Several bottles (Miller, Coors) have been reduced to €2.95. They also do pints of minerals and Shandy's for €2.50 which is pretty good seeing as splits are one of the most overpriced drinks in a pub in my opinion, and i can never understand how pubs get away with charging full pint price for a Shandy. Another one they're pretty good on is that a glass of beer etc is exactly half the price of a pint as it should be. Plenty of places charge more than half. Bottles of Wine are pretty good too, €15 for a bottle of Carmen.


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## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

Ciaraella said:


> Our local is pretty reasonable. €2.50 for a bottle of Stella is a permanent price. Several bottles (Miller, Coors) have been reduced to €2.95. They also do pints of minerals and Shandy's for €2.50 which is pretty good seeing as splits are one of the most overpriced drinks in a pub in my opinion, and i can never understand how pubs get away with charging full pint price for a Shandy. Another one they're pretty good on is that a glass of beer etc is exactly half the price of a pint as it should be. Plenty of places charge more than half. Bottles of Wine are pretty good too, €15 for a bottle of Carmen.


 
That does sound reasonable. I like the bit about a half pint costing half the price of a pint. I'm not sure exactly but I think bottles of Bud, Miller etc cost well in excess of €4 in our pubs here. I never drink them in pubs as they contain well less than a pint and are very poor value.

They work out at about €1 in the supermarkets and off licences. And they're making a profit at that!


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## Caveat (26 Aug 2009)

That's great for Dublin Ciaraella!

Whingeing publicans? Whingeing posters more like! - what's wrong with you? Get off to the pub with you


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## Firefly (26 Aug 2009)

I think that before the Celtic Tiger boom we lived in modest dwellings and the pub was somewhere with nice furniture and big tellies etc. Now that we all have new houses with new furniture and plasmas we're opting to stay at home.

Yer man on Today FM yest was hilarious though saying that the pubs offer a good service and a safe place to be!


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## Caveat (26 Aug 2009)

Firefly said:


> Yer man on Today FM yest was hilarious though saying that the pubs offer a good service and a safe place to be!


 
  Yeah I heard that.

TBH I'm not even sure what he was getting at or trying to say.

"safe" ? As opposed to where?  Does he think we'd all be staggering around in skips or alleyways if it wasn't for the pub?

My couch and living room I'll wager are quite a bit safer than than the average pub Mr vintner.

(Never mind that plenty of pubs are far from safe anyway)


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## Firefly (26 Aug 2009)

markpb said:


> Comparing prices in Dublin and Donegal is like comparing apples and oranges. The publican in Dublin pays higher rent, rates, insurance and possibly wages so the prices will always be higher .


 
Dublin pubs get more punters though...


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## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

Caveat said:


> That's great for Dublin Ciaraella!
> 
> Whingeing publicans? Whingeing posters more like! - what's wrong with you? Get off to the pub with you


 
Good man, Cav!! Doutcha boy!!! 

(Despite your nasty post, I'll still vote for you when you take your shot at stardom. We'll boast that we knew you when you had nothing and were a nobody!!).


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## Ciaraella (26 Aug 2009)

Caveat said:


> That's great for Dublin Ciaraella!


 

It surely is. The pub wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, a bit scruffy, the whole place could do with a re-furb, older customers thinking it's ok to smoke in the toilets, a few bowseys. But it's one of those 'where everybody knows your name' kind of places which is nice. And because of the amount of older men there the Guinness is top notch.


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## Caveat (26 Aug 2009)

Honestly, that sounds exactly like my kind of pub!  I only really like "old man pubs" generally.

But I'm still not going.


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## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

Is Beamish a good seller in Dublin? Huge in Cork. They were recently bought out by Heineken who also brew Murphy's. The rumour around here is that they may phase Murphy's out eventually. Is Murphy's freely available in Dublin?


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## carpedeum (26 Aug 2009)

The pubs need to adapt to changes in drinking habits. Remember the vintners lobby put down McDowell's proposal for cafe bars a couple of year's ago. Also, the enforcing of drink-driving leglislation has meant more careful drinking. I've been stopped three times this year at mandatory testing stops by Gardai and would have been in trouble had I been drinking. We were out recently and a small bottle of Bulmers and draught pint of Guinness left us with a fiver and small change out of twenty Euro in two pubs in Dublin. Crazy!


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## Firefly (26 Aug 2009)

Ciaraella said:


> It surely is. The pub wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, a bit scruffy, the whole place could do with a re-furb, older customers thinking it's ok to smoke in the toilets, a few bowseys. But it's one of those 'where everybody knows your name' kind of places which is nice. And because of the amount of older men there the Guinness is top notch.


 
Sounds magic! 

Can't believe that tool O'Donoghue is backing the pubs resisting that the drink limits be reduced for drivers. Given all the recent hype re: his lavish expenses, he's starting to get on my whick!


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## VOR (26 Aug 2009)

They need to come down to Ennis. 2 bars have opened up in the last 6 months and another establishment (which has been closed for 3/4 years) is getting the once over before re-opening. I don't know where the punters are coming from.
2 establishments went in to liquidation and were taken over within days. The trade never stopped and most people don't even know they are under new management.

I understand rural pubs are suffering but this rather large town is bucking the trend.


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## The_Banker (26 Aug 2009)

I don’t think the price of beer in pubs is the issue. As a teenager in the late 80s I worked in a large pub on Corks northside. We had the same old codgers in each day and they complained all day long about the price of the beer. Yet, they still paid it. More people packed the lounge that night, complained about any price increase and came back every night. 
Monday mornings used to be a very busy morning in the bar (the lounge only got busy in the evening) as those who were on the lash all weekend didn’t bother going to work on a Monday morning and instead came for a ‘cure’. Added to that a large amount of Postmen used the pub after their shift ended about 11:00 AM and there were often sing songs with 50 men singing ballads at lunch time (the pub didn’t do food). 
Added to that the area had high unemployment but people still had money to spend as the black economy was doing well and those that were getting nixers (or foxers as they are known in Cork) could readily afford the beer.
The problem for the vintners now is that since those heady days when there was a social class known as the “drinking” class has gone and thankfully gone forever. I remember when we got in Ballygowan for the first time some of the old heads were laughing, saying no one in there right mind would pay money for water in a pub. Added to that there was a major crack down in the early 90s against the black economy and as the Celtic Tiger kicked in able bodied men no longer had the excuse of not being able to find work.
In that time Ireland changed but the pub industry didn’t. Most of the older guys who I would consider “drinking men” are now dead. There was this one guy who used to come into us every Monday morning and stay for the whole day. He would drink at least 20 pints over the course of the day. Not slug them back, but drink them steadily over the course of the day while smoking, playing cards or draughts. He would walk out sober as a judge at 11:30 that night. Needless to say, he died a young man (early 40s) and I see his anniversary on The Echo each year. Another regular came into the bar one morning and his hands were shaking so badly he couldn’t hold the glass that contained his whiskey. I had to put a straw into the glass for him. Once he drank the whiskey he was his normal self again and his hands were as steady as a rock. Again, he is now pushing up daisies. 
As a child I remember old guys stumbling up the street as we children played football and they could barely put one foot in front of the other. They used walls and railings to get home and I dunno how they did it. It is a rare sight now and is a scene from yesterdays Ireland. 

My wife comes from a tiny village in South Tipperary and growing up there was about 12 pubs in the village that had a population of less than 1000. There are 5 pubs there now and two of these are for sale with asking prices of less than that of a modest 3 bed semi in the suburbs of Cork City. Most of them don’t open until the evening time.

Pubs are closing down and I think it is a good thing. While there is still too much of a ‘drink culture’ in Ireland it is not half as bad as when I was a kid or when I worked as a teenager in a pub.
I get the impression from vintners over the last few days as they try to flex there lobbying muscles (and from the ad campaigns on the radio with Brendan O’Connor as the narrator) that they are nostalgic for the old days of money flowing across the counter. The two guys who owned the pub where I worked became millionaires in a short space of time (although I think one lost his again in the property crash) but I couldn’t see that happening now with anyone opening a pub. 
But let me tell you that those days are nothing to be nostalgic about. Kids doing there homework in pubs while parents drank, customers asking the owners for a sub because there electricity was cut off and being refused, men falling and hitting there heads because they couldn’t stand and wives sending the kids up to the pub to ask there fathers for money or to come home and the kids being told to “go home”. 
In fact the owners of the pub where I worked probably made more money because they never gave credit or gave a sub to the customers. All the smaller pubs around did and when customers reached there credit limit with those small pubs they couldn’t go back there and they had to go to the ‘big’ pub in the area and they actually paid more for their drink.
As I look back and think of the wasted lives that passed through the doors of the pub where I worked it makes me cringe as I hear vintners go on now about the special place the “Irish pub” is for atmosphere and craic compared to its European counterpart. 

The Irish pub in about wasted lives and making money. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## MrMan (26 Aug 2009)

It isn't always about being practicle though as going out to the pub allows the chance to meet people by chance and also gives you the option to head away/change venue if you get sick of the company or surroundings. you can drink at your own pace at a pub too and with regards to watching matches, i think it would become tiresome to be on a schedule with friends as some nights you just want to kick back on your own, but if you are in a rota you can't without upsetting people.


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## Caveat (26 Aug 2009)

Thought provoking post, _The Banker_.


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## Lex Foutish (26 Aug 2009)

All of this is being discussed on Liveline at present. Programme is on until 3 pm.


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## Firefly (26 Aug 2009)

Caveat said:


> Thought provoking post, _The Banker_.


 

+1 .. there's a book there


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## z104 (26 Aug 2009)

Excellent post by the Banker. There really isn't anything romantic about the effects of alcohol abuse..


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## fobs (26 Aug 2009)

Excellant post The Banker and would remind me of a lot of characters that were around our town growing up. There are still some but seem to be the older generation. a lot of my friends who would have loved the pub scene in their 20's rarely if ever go to the pub now. 

Prefer to meet up with my friends and have a bite to eat and maybe one/two drinks then home rather than a session of the past. 
People cannot afford to have the smell of drink on them going to work the morning after the night before and also due to the drink/drive laws.


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## starlite68 (26 Aug 2009)

still though..if we dont drink in the pubs we drink as much or more at home,its just in us a a race!...that wont make the publicans happy im afraid..but as banker says, the had it good for long enough!


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## AgathaC (26 Aug 2009)

Good post, The Banker. 
IMHO the publicans/ Vintners Federation have ALWAYS whinged, in good times and bad!


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## MrMan (27 Aug 2009)

I don't think whinging is exclusive to publicans given the amount of whinging thats going on about them and prices.


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## bren1916 (27 Aug 2009)

Farmers are at least as good if not better at whinging than publicans (which is really saying something)..


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## Firefly (27 Aug 2009)

MrMan said:


> I don't think whinging is exclusive to publicans quote]
> 
> Given that this is the LOS steam are we calling the kettle black?


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## Lex Foutish (27 Aug 2009)

bren1916 said:


> Farmers are at least as good if not better at whinging than publicans (which is really saying something)..


 
I remember back in the late 70's, there was some competition looking for the most unlikely newspaper headline. One of the many entries was something like "Paisley and Pope Have Tea Together" but the winning entry simply read, "Farmers Are Happy!"


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## KatieC (27 Aug 2009)

Excellent post by 'The Banker'  - it strikes a cord with me and both my parents are non-drinkers!  

I know of one pub in a tiny village which used to have no problem serving pints all night to fifteen year olds. They were 'grooming' a good steady source of income for the future. They had no excuse that they were not aware of the underage drinkers since their daughter was in the same class! Happily the pub closed a couple of years ago.

I look forward to the day when advertising alcohol is banned in the same way that advertising cigarettes was.  Its strange that alcohol companies are allowed to sponsor sporting events considering the fact that alcohol is not included in the training regime of most sporting teams!

I do enjoy the occasional tipple but it's not a high priority in my life.


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## MrMan (28 Aug 2009)

Firefly said:


> MrMan said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think whinging is exclusive to publicans quote]
> ...


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## Lex Foutish (28 Aug 2009)

I just went back and read The Banker's post again. It's definitely one of the best I've seen posted by anyone on AAM! 

Very thought provoking and..................true!


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## Complainer (28 Aug 2009)

The_Banker said:


> I
> 
> The Irish pub in about wasted lives and making money. Nothing more, nothing less.


Hear, hear. They are legalised drug dealers, no more. 50% less pubs in Ireland would be a good start. I'm sorry for anyone who loses their job, but that business just isn't sustainable.


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## terrontress (28 Aug 2009)

It's true that the pub has played a central role in Irish society and people think they have gotten too big for their boots but, to be fair, pubs have had many positive effects.

I have been in pubs where the trade union I've been a member of has been given free use of a room to hold a meeting in, no charge and maybe only one pint per head drunk in the hour that we were there.

There have been numerous examples of power cuts, floods, local disasters where people have converged on the local pub and been given shelter and warmth.

I just think that in the past few years, as with a lot of things in Irish life, it has become more money focussed. Everything is computerised. Many publicans have tried to give as little possible while charging as much possible. As a result the relationship between service provider and customer has changed. People used to be proud of their pubs. They'd have darts teams and golf societies. It is less so nowadays.

I have gone into pubs in Ireland and tried to strike up a conversation with people I don't know and been looked at like I have two heads. The pub is no longer a welcoming place with the drinkers on the same side as the landlord.

Another thing to be remembered is that the cost of drink from supermarkets and off licenses is now a fraction of what it was ten years ago. People used to drink more in pubs because it was maybe 50% more than the price of a can then. Now it is 400% the price of a can or more.

As with most post-Celtic Tiger changes, I will be glad to see a return to more traditional values. Those who persist with their €12 carveries doling out only a scrap, prices increasing by the hour for drinks and €6.50 for a pint of Coke will gradually disappear.

By the way, great post Banker.


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## smiley (29 Aug 2009)

Publicans like farmers always talk the poor mouth.

Heres another example of how mean publicans are. The makers of Bulmers cider recently Mr Dunsmore also revealed that 80pc of on-trade outlets, including pubs and hotels, have passed on just seven percentage points of a recently introduced 10pc decrease in the price of its pints.Of course very few passed on the 10% cut in full. They just pocketed the the money! What a major surprise!

From the Independent:


Mr Dunsmore also revealed that 80pc of on-trade outlets, including pubs and hotels, have passed on just seven percentage points of a recently introduced 10pc decrease in the price of its pints.

Beneficial

"I would not describe our customers as profiteering," said Mr Dunsmore when asked if publicans should have passed on the full saving. "It would be beneficial for everyone involved for that decrease to be passed on in full, but we can't dictate the retail price," he added.


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## terrontress (30 Aug 2009)

smiley said:


> Publicans like farmers always talk the poor mouth.
> 
> Heres another example of how mean publicans are. The makers of Bulmers cider recently Mr Dunsmore also revealed that 80pc of on-trade outlets, including pubs and hotels, have passed on just seven percentage points of a recently introduced 10pc decrease in the price of its pints.Of course very few passed on the 10% cut in full. They just pocketed the the money! What a major surprise!
> 
> ...



Well, to play devil's advocate, possibly by not passing on the saving, the pubs have not had to put the prices up. 

Really, I am not concerned by how much publicans pay for anything. Simply how much it costs me.


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## MrMan (30 Aug 2009)

While the bankers post seems to have struck a chord with many here, some of it seems out of kilter with my understanding of Irish pubs. First to say they are about making money is stating the obvious as they employ staff and are a business, secondly to say they are about wasted lives is a bit dramatic and misses the whole social aspect that many of us enjoy. Many great nights and landmarks have been celebrated in pubs. sure there are wasters who spend there entire lives on a bar stool, close the pub and they can do the same thing sitting at home, what changes?
I know plenty of publicans who take the aul fellas home, sometimes make sure they get some dinner etc. 
Some seem to still get a little hung up on the stigma that the Irish are big drinkers etc but I hope that we have all grown up enough not to care about stereotypes and live our own lives as we please.


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