# Water Leak in Central Heating



## Mommah (3 Mar 2008)

We completely renovated this house about 8 years ago including the entire gas central heating system.

Pretty much since the beginning the heating would malfunction every few months...rads cool no hot water.

Discovered one leak repaired it at the expense of the insurance co...premium went thru the roof.

Since then have had same problem but getting worse...have to top up and bleed system every few weeks....no obvious visible leaks.

When I ask plumber what to do...he says "sell"

Any magic leak finder out there????


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## DavyJones (3 Mar 2008)

*Re: Water Leak in Central Heating..HELP!!!!!!!!*

1st suggestion, change your plumber! there is an agent you can add to your system but it is very hit and miss, i would def try that first and see how it goes. you can get it from any heating merchants and instructions are on the bottle. it only works on small leaks though, i have used it and its worked and i've used it and it hasn't worked. you could also try a firm called larsen water mangement (no connection) they pressurise your system and use ultra sonic and sound equipment to hear location of leak then they draw an x on the spot and thats where your plumber can start looking. they are expensive but probably cheaper then ripping up all the floors!


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## theplumber (4 Mar 2008)

Do you have signs of water damage now ?

study relevant pages on  plumbersdiary.com carefully and then let me know if I can help or advise.


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## maddad (4 Mar 2008)

Hi,

I'm butting in here with same problem.  Leak possibly narrowed down to under solid wood floors.  Can get access under floor of adjoining room but can't see in under suspected area involved.  Anyone suggest solution without obviously lifting wood floors( as I could be wrong/messy/expense etc). Anyone know of company doing CCTV inspection(similar to drains)?

Thanks

Maddad


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## gary71 (4 Mar 2008)

Maddad, see if its possible to isolate suspected fault area pipe work, to prove or disprove leak, then you could look at rerouting pipe work with out lifting floor, if it's pipe work for rads that is.


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## maddad (4 Mar 2008)

Gary,

Good idea but not really a runner because
1.  Would have to wait too long to prove point(i.e for pressure to fall)
2.  More importantly wouldn't even consider re-running pipework above ground as it would be unsightly.

If I can be sure that leak is under this wooden floor I will just bite the bullet and lift and relay  the floor for the purpose of fixing the leak.  I just want to be sure that that's where it is. The floor is junkers wideboard layed on a clip system.

Thanks again


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## gary71 (4 Mar 2008)

How long does it take for you to lose system pressure?


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## theplumber (5 Mar 2008)

You can get tiny illuminating  web cam to do the job if you are into diy see pic on pumbersdiary.com plumbing page plus other methods we do


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## maddad (5 Mar 2008)

gary71,

takes about six weeks for system to empty. Too long to be without heat in the room concerned at this time of year. Again above ground piping not an option, i'm too fussy!. I'm a good DIY'er and hope to solve this problem myself. 

Plumber,

Sounds like good idea. Can I buy self illuminating web cam and if so where and how much approx?? I'll be running it under floor for about 20ft at furthest point. Will control and picture quality be good enough to examine joints closely??
To confirm my floor is solid wood, laid on ply, on raised joists 

thanks all


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## gary71 (5 Mar 2008)

Thats not a big leak, so good luck, i would be interested to know how you get on if the web cam works for you.


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## TomC (5 Mar 2008)

Gary, I have a similiar problem in existing house I am getting a guy in over the next few days with a thermographic camera he wants the system cold to take pictures of all the floors and then will pics with the heat on for a comparison to attemp to see where the leak is. I can let you know how I go the cost is in the 200 euro region.
He is not relation/friend of mine. I can let you know how I go.


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## gary71 (5 Mar 2008)

Thanks Tom, fault finding like this is something i have no experience in, but leaking systems are very common(as posts prove) so it would be great to get a handle on it, so i can point people in the right direction, cheers, Gary.


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## theplumber (5 Mar 2008)

Tiny web cams. For any of you interested in examining in remote spots Maplin electronics will have all you need. A mirror on a stick like large dental mirror is also the best investment a plumber can make

Fibre optics. Redundant medical gear is high spec if you can get it.


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## Mommah (7 Mar 2008)

Thanks guys I have a new plumber coming tomorrow.
Hopefully will have some concrete ideas...my sistem is now only taking 5 days to drain and a damp patch has appeared in the ceiling of the upstairs bedroom...not sure if there are any pipes there but that would be cheaper than taking up the ground floor.

Advice to anyone laying wooden floors in future is to buy the clip systems or the other one that you can take up and put back down.....I'm 80% confident this problem is caused by the screws in the floor themselves.


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## Richieno9 (26 Mar 2008)

Hi Guys-I have a similar problem. I have gas central heating and had a plumber out not too long ago to replace a valve in the boiler. He also removed a faulty pressure regulating valve from the hotpress upstairs and since then I am losing pressure in the system. I can lose  up to 1.2bar overnight and sometimes it will take days. heating is working but I have a constant problem with a downstairs radiator...keeps fluctuating in heat.Could that be an indicator of where it's leaking from? 
I have no visible leak in the house so I'm guessin its under the floor  Might have to go with the camera like tom.


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## davidoco (26 Mar 2008)

Mommah said:


> Advice to anyone laying wooden floors in future is to buy the clip systems


 
I'm not so sure about that.  I laid a junkers wideboard in my livingroom last year using clips.  During the laying  one board got damaged and had to come up.  It took at least a half an hour to get it up and the board was totally destroyed.    Once the board has been tapped home that's it.


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## millertime (4 Apr 2008)

TomC said:


> Gary, I have a similiar problem in existing house I am getting a guy in over the next few days with a thermographic camera he wants the system cold to take pictures of all the floors and then will pics with the heat on for a comparison to attemp to see where the leak is. I can let you know how I go the cost is in the 200 euro region.
> He is not relation/friend of mine. I can let you know how I go.


 
How did you get on with this Tom?  I have the same problem.


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## Mayoman63 (3 Jan 2009)

Interested in your conversation on an number of counts. Built house 7 years ago and am now stuck with no heating downstairs after a second 'unlocated leak'. Plumber brought in a guy with ultrasonic sensor 8 months ago (cost c250 Euro) and sussed first leak which cost total of 1600 Euro to fix. Recurrence of problem in last two months and now scratching my head (and wallet) as insurance will not cover repeated explorations. Have isolated upstairs so at least nights are warm. Fear that we could be ripping up floors every 6 months unless we route piping above ground.  Any ideas on most 'sightly' and cost effective means of doing this?  Also, what liability, if any, might rest with original plumber. Surely systems should be good for more than 7 years!!


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## PetPal (4 Jan 2009)

Mayoman63 said:


> Interested in your conversation on an number of counts. Built house 7 years ago and am now stuck with no heating downstairs after a second 'unlocated leak'. Plumber brought in a guy with ultrasonic sensor 8 months ago (cost c250 Euro) and sussed first leak which cost total of 1600 Euro to fix. Recurrence of problem in last two months and now scratching my head (and wallet) as insurance will not cover repeated explorations. Have isolated upstairs so at least nights are warm. Fear that we could be ripping up floors every 6 months unless we route piping above ground.  Any ideas on most 'sightly' and cost effective means of doing this?  Also, what liability, if any, might rest with original plumber. Surely systems should be good for more than 7 years!!


I'm interested in this topic as I have a vaguely similar issue.  Our (thermostat?) goes too high at times (just over 3) at which point my husband has to fiddle with a valve under the stairs (turn it off and then on).  This seems to sort it for a while, but it's not a permanent fix.  Also, separately, when we first turn the heating on there is a leak of water from the boiler itself for a short while.  It fills a jug to about a quarter pint before it then stops.  My husband thinks that the act of putting the heating on causes the water to leak from (clearly) a faulty pipe or area within the boiler, but that after a while it stops leaking because (I think) the pipe has by then expanded!!  Does that make sense, and should we attempt to fix it ourselves (by taking the cover off the boiler and seeing if we can fix the hole/leak in the pipe)?  Any advice appreciated.


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## DavyJones (4 Jan 2009)

Mayoman63, the original plumber will have no liability and his/her insurance company would not even entertain a claim after so long.

PetPal, asounds like your system pressure is far too high. There is a pressure relief valve in the boiler that will open it the system exceeds 3 bar pressure. When water is heated it expands, so a hot system will always operate at a higher pressure.

The valve under the stairs may be a filling loop or automatic filling unit. Whichever one it is, it should always be off, unless you need to top up water in system. Your system pressure should be between 1 and 1.5 BAR. always take readings when system is cold.


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## Mayoman63 (6 Jan 2009)

DavyJones, thanks for the comment.  Any advice on routing of piping above floor? What kind of prices would one expect and what options exist for concealment of pipes?  It shocked me to see how far pipes were under the subfloor (18 inches or so) and that's my concern in relation to potential frequent repairs - looking at 50 sq metres of new porcelain tiles whcih I would be mad to lay before getting this sorted


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## DavyJones (6 Jan 2009)

Pipes ran along skirting can be painted so not as noticeable. Cost depends on size of house, how many rads etc.

One thing that may suit or atleast worth thinking about is chasing floors now and running new pipework (not as deep as 18" though). The way we do it is treat every rad as a single circuit. Run two pipes directly from rad to central point (above ground). you may be left with 10 pipes coming from 5 rads etc. Then above ground we stick five pipes each, by way of manifold into flow and return.
This means there are no fittings under floor and manifolds are easily accesible.


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## Mayoman63 (6 Jan 2009)

Thanks.  I'll certainly consider that option.


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## Bedlam (19 Feb 2009)

I have a similar problem and a plumber €600.00 to use a gas detection method he discovered a leak in the coil in the hot water cylinder. I paid a further €650.00 for new cylinder. Now discover I still have a (second leak?) and asked the plumber for advice. He says that the above detection system will only trace one leak at a time! and that it will cost another €600.00 to carry out another test.

Just wondering anybody any experience / feedback on this type of leak detection method.

Thanks 

bedlam


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## DavyJones (19 Feb 2009)

I am not familar with a gas detection method for finding water leaks on heating system. Can you give me more detail? how long it took, equipment used etc.

Have you a small tank in the attic that feeds water to the heating system or do you have a pressurised system?

How do you now you have a leak?


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## Bedlam (19 Feb 2009)

Hi 
The process involved draining the system and pumping gas throughout the system and using a gas dector to identify where gas escaped from as the point where the leak was.

I have a small tank in the attic which keeps filling and loss of heat / constant bleeding of 2 rads

Thanks

Bedlam


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## DavyJones (19 Feb 2009)

The radiators are on the ground floor?
Is the cylinder on 1st floor?

You would have noticed if there was a hole in the coil in your cylinder. There are two main symtoms. Before I explain them you must first understand a thing or two about your heating and plumbing systems.

you have two seperate water systems in your home, heating (boiler,rads) and plumbing (cold water, hot water, soil pipes).

These two systems meet in the cylinder, a cylinder is full of plumbing water feed from a storage tank in the atttic, a pipe coils inside the cylinder and is filled with heating water from boiler. Heating water gets hot, heating pipe in cylinder and this hot pipe then heats the surrounding plumbing water.

The heating system is filled by a small tank in attic and the plumbing by the big tank. These waters can only mix if there is a hole in the coil(hot pipe running through cylinder). Back to the two symtoms.

1 You may notice a yellow tinge in the hot water caused by  mixing with dirty heating  water.

2 More importantly. water will always try to find it's own level, if the water mixed in the coil and the two systems became one. Whichever tank in attic is lower, it will constantly fill trying to get to the same level as other tank. This results in one tank constantly overflowing and water running from the eves of your house. you would notice this. 

This is simple physics, Did you notice any of these symtoms.


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## Bedlam (20 Feb 2009)

Hi DavyJones,

Many thanks for your help to date. 

The Radiators loosing water are on the 1st floor as is the cylinder.

When the gas tracing was carried out the plumber said he found a hole in the coil and that was the sourse of my leak. Coil and Cylinder replaced. 

Both tanks are along side each other with a small constant flow the smaller of the two.

I never noticed nor did any of my family ever comment on there being dirty water from the hot water. Which is an interesting observation on your part and nearly leads me to believe that I was fooled into this explanation from the plumber and that the leak as such was never located. I feel like confronting them on this point alone

The tank never overflowed at any stage.

If you have any other comments or suggestions I would really appreciate them.

And Thanks Again

Bedlam


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## DavyJones (20 Feb 2009)

If the tanks are side by side, the water level in the big tank is higher than the small one, This would cause the small tank to constantly over flow as it tries to reach the level of the big tank water line. It would do this unless both water lines where already level, which is very rare, unlikely.

Did plumber take cylinder away? if so, can you get it back?. very easy to test for hole. one enter and one exit, put cylinder on side , block one hole with hane and blow through other, you will hear and feel pressure escaping if indeed there is a hole.

We can assume the leak is quite big, since water is filling tank all the time and we can also assume it is on the ground floor, because if it wasn't you would have wet patches on ceilings.

I have mixed feelings about leak sealing agents, as sometimes they can cause more harm than good, however I have used an agent recently that claims to seal leaks of up to 200L a day. I 'll give it a week and retest system to see how it goes. It came from Sweden and is quite expensive (€60). It is thinner(like water) than most sealers on the Irish market.


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## Bedlam (20 Feb 2009)

Hi DavyJones,

I would be willing to try the sealin agents as a solution, the alternative being the lifting of timbers floors and going through concrete. 

The gas detection option is €650.00 so the above would be worth a try.

Could you let me have the name of the product please and I might touch base with you next week to see how it worked for you.

Regards

Bedlam


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## kenn (4 Mar 2009)

bedlam i was just wondering do you have a name of that company
PM it to me if you like cheers


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## DavyJones (4 Mar 2009)

You could have a chat with this crowd. tI have spoken with them a few times and they know their stuff. I have never dealt with them directly.

http://www.leakdetection.ie/ . I have no connection to this company.


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## kenn (4 Mar 2009)

qouting bedlam
"I never noticed nor did any of my family ever comment on there being dirty water from the hot water. Which is an interesting observation on your part and nearly leads me to believe that I was fooled into this explanation from the plumber and that the leak as such was never located. I feel like confronting them on this point alone"


this is not always the case i personally have seen coils to be leaking and with no colour difference in the water.
i'd imagine your expert is not wrong with his decision simply because he is being paid well for his expertise.


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## DavyJones (4 Mar 2009)

kenn said:


> this is not always the case i personally have seen coils to be leaking and with no colour difference in the water.
> i'd imagine your expert is not wrong with his decision simply because he is being paid well for his expertise.



You may notice discolouration in water particulary if system is treated with inhibitor.

Since you have seen a few leaking coils, you must know that a classic symtom is tank overflow. See pt 2 below.

Oh, and just because somebody charges alot does not make them an expert. I do not refer to this case because I don't know the details. , more in a general sense.



DavyJones said:


> 1 You may notice a yellow tinge in the hot water caused by  mixing with dirty heating  water.
> 
> 2 More importantly. water will always try to find it's own level, if the water mixed in the coil and the two systems became one. Whichever tank in attic is lower, it will constantly fill trying to get to the same level as other tank. This results in one tank constantly overflowing and water running from the eves of your house. you would notice this.
> 
> This is simple physics, Did you notice any of these symtoms.


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## kenn (4 Mar 2009)

oh i know that but its not always going to be discoloured was my point.

also in general if its only a small leak you might not notice the discolouation due to the volume of "clear" water within the cylinder.

but if the tank was replaced, by right it should have be pressure tested to prove that he was correct with his descision.


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## mackeroni (6 Mar 2009)

I'm very interested in this as I currently have the same problem. Mind you there is an area tiled floor where the tiles are warm to the touch later at night. It's about 1 meter x 2 meters and I think the problem may be down there.
Also, I used fernox 6 weeks ago and is it coincidence that another fitting under the tiled floor gave way a month ago - so bad that I couldn't even pressurise the system. The plumber found this as it was an area that was 'revisited' by him while the house was being constructed 6 years ago. Anyone have an opinion on those system cleaners? 
The current leak reads as follows when cold: Tues 1.5bar, Wed 1.1, Thurs .8, this morning .5. A bit to much to ignore I think? Thanks for any input.


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## DavyJones (6 Mar 2009)

System cleaner is ok, how long did you leave it in system? you do need to flush it out in 1 to 4 weeks. 

The ground being warm may mean that the heating pipes are quite close to the surface in that area.

Have you checked your pressure relief valve at boiler, it would be common for these to let-by(leak).


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## mackeroni (7 Mar 2009)

Thanks DaveyJones, the cleaner was in the system for about 2 weeks when this started. It was flushed by the plumber then. Also no sign of water anywhere overground. I refilled the system last night to 1.5bar - just checked now it's at 1bar looks like it's getting worse. Plumber is now playing all this down but I tested and a drop from 1.5 to 1 bar is about 5 litres! I'm getting on to the plumber before I need a liferaft!


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## DavyJones (7 Mar 2009)

How old is the system?  That is quite a pressure loss alright.


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## mackeroni (8 Mar 2009)

6 years old. perfect until last year when I had to top it up for the first time.


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## mackeroni (16 Nov 2009)

Just to follow up - it looks like Oxypic did the trick here - great stuff!


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## bunglemark2 (11 Feb 2010)

Folks
This looks really similar to a problem I have at the moment. I'm topping up the water almost every day and last night the pressure dropped below 0.5bar. In a nutshell, i have a gas boiler, Baxi Solo 80 burner. House is ca. 9 years old. Burner regularly serviced so no issues there. 
The pressure drops every day on the gauge. No signs anywhere in the house of leaks, so the water must be going somewhere ! How can I tell if the coil is leaking ? Surely I shouldn't have to replace a hot tank so soon ?
Cheers
C


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## DavyJones (11 Feb 2010)

Do you have a motorised valve fitted on Cylinder? have you a balancing valve fitted?

If not, drain down system, fit valves on the flow and return of cylinder and then turn off both, it pressure remains constant after this it is a leak on the coil. It could very easliy be under your floor.

Have you checked the pressure relief valve at boiler?


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## bstop (13 Feb 2010)

Drain your central system and remove the lower connection to your hot water cylinder coil. If there is a leak in the coil you will see water dripping at this point on the cylinder.
There may be some water in the coil immediately when you disconnect the connection. This will stop dripping after a short period. Any constant dripping will indicate a faulty coil.


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## bill803 (27 Oct 2010)

..


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## pache (29 Oct 2010)

Check out [broken link removed]
No affiliation.


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