# Fair Deal Help



## JoplinOne (25 Jul 2017)

Hi, hoping to get some help on the above. 

My mother is relatively young, 71, and has been diagnosed with dementia. I'm her only child, my father is dead. I have a young family and I can't move in with her to care for her, as this form of dementia affects the frontal lobe and causes delusions and the changes of increasingly violent outbursts. I am coming to the point where I am looking at a possible home. 

She has savings of 60k, a pension of 200k, which is wrapped up in investments that I am not sure how it works, some money seems to be released every six months, up to 6k in total a year into her account. She did it in a way that one of the pensions will be inherited by me. I have no idea what happens if Fair Deal happens. I have thought about changing it so that she will get a fixed income from it and can put it into her care, waiving any inheritance from it. 

She is on a state pension, and her house is worth around 300k. 

My question is if she has to go into a home would her current money: pension and savings cover it? I am hoping to try and get a carer for her at home before the inevitable nursing home care comes into place. Is there tax recoverable on that?

What happens to her home if she has to move into a home?


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## twofor1 (26 Jul 2017)

JoplinOne said:


> My question is if she has to go into a home would her current money: pension and savings cover it? I am hoping to try and get a carer for her at home before the inevitable nursing home care comes into place. Is there tax recoverable on that?
> 
> What happens to her home if she has to move into a home?



Yes, Fair Deal is available to all regardless of what income or assets they have. Everyone pays 80% of their income, plus 7.5% of the value of their home (If they have one, this is capped at 3 years and can be deferred until after death) plus 7.5% of any other assets they might have.

How they treat your Mothers _‘’Pension of €200K which is wrapped up in investments’’_ depends on what exactly it is. If it is something that can be cashed in, it will probably be treated as an asset. Either way your Mother would benefit greatly.

Fair Deal is explained in detail here:

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/nhss/

Tax relief is available on the cost of home care.

Can we claim tax relief on the cost of home care?

Yes you can. Our clients or their family can avail of income tax relief of up to 40% on payments to Home Instead Senior Care of up to €75,000 per annum…………………………………

http://www.homeinstead.ie/faqs 

You should contact your Mothers local Public Health Nurse, who can, if needed arrange most of the cost of up to I think 21 hours home care weekly, there are usually waiting lists for this, even if you only get a few hours a week to start, once in it’s easier to get hours increased as your Mothers needs increase, you can also pay additional hours privately.

Your Mother’s home will likely remain empty if she moves to a nursing home under Fair Deal as all of the rent would be treated as income and as such 80% would go towards the cost of her care. Far cheaper and much less of a headache to leave it empty like thousands of others, my family members included.

If your Mother sells the house she will be assessed on the proceeds indefinitely.


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## thedaddyman (26 Jul 2017)

You should definitely speak to your public nurse in the first instance and also your hospital or doctor may be able to provide you with the contact details for the home care coordinator. Be aware that it is difficult to get a state supported home care package and even if you do get it, it may be no more then someone dropping in for 30 minutes a day until your mother's condition worsens. The public nurse will carry out an assessment and you need to paint the situation as black as possible

Also ask the nurse who are the local carers who could be assigned and who would they recommend. it might be an idea to see if you can contact them and see if they will do extra hours and get paid by you or your mother


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## JoplinOne (26 Jul 2017)

Thanks a million for getting back to me twofor1 and thedaddyman. 

The pension, as far as I know, is on an investment scheme and she gets about 6k at the moment a year, however there is an option to change it into a pension that will give her a fixed income for twenty years of around 10K. 

I would be waiving my inheritance on that but as long as she was able to get more care out of it, then I would be happy. However, her prognosis is sadly around 5 years max, but I am thinking that you never know and she could live longer and then it would be a major help. She wants to stay in her home so I think we will look at Home care for the time being; she has HSE carers at the moment. That is good news about the tax relief. 

In relation to the house, so we could never move into it if she went into a home? It seems wasteful, as I know she would want my children to have use of it if they needed to. But if it is way too much hassle then we would leave it empty. My wife's family stayed in their grandmother's house down the country when she went into a home, but it was only when they were over visiting her in the home (they lived abroad and in Dublin).


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## JoplinOne (26 Jul 2017)

We have HSE care, 1.5 hours a day, but all they really do is give her medication. She needs more care and meals cooked, perhaps overnight care soon. I have looked at the idea of an aupair type carer. Do many people do this?


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## thedaddyman (26 Jul 2017)

JoplinOne said:


> We have HSE care, 1.5 hours a day, but all they really do is give her medication. She needs more care and meals cooked, perhaps overnight care soon. I have looked at the idea of an aupair type carer. Do many people do this?



Is there any meals on wheels or something similar in the area? There are also private care companies you can engage but I've heard mixed views on those from people who've hired them


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## JoplinOne (26 Jul 2017)

I have heard bad things about meals on wheels, what I was doing is buying meals and she was able to heat them up and was enjoying them, but I think she got bored with them and if I could have someone there to cook each evening, I have to broach that with the HSE carer. We don't live near her, but are there on the weekends during the day.

I would worry about an Aupair type carer as I would be afraid that they wouldn't have the expertise to deal with this type of dementia, as she can hallucinate and think people are in the house. There seems to be a problem with medication all the time, stabilising her, getting the right balance. Essentially, the doctors have not told me if she has worsened. Sometimes she will be back to normal almost, other times she can seem like she's lost her mind completely. Such an insidious disease.


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## twofor1 (26 Jul 2017)

JoplinOne said:


> In relation to the house, so we could never move into it if she went into a home?



If your Mother rented her home while in under Fair Deal then she would have to declare the income.

If a family member was minding the house for her and were not paying rent, then the house is not rented and there is no income for your Mother to declare.

I would guess there are many such arrangements with Fair Deal houses, whether these arrangements throw up any other issues, I don’t know.


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## twofor1 (26 Jul 2017)

JoplinOne said:


> I have looked at the idea of an aupair type carer. Do many people do this?



It can be done but throws up many problems. I know a few who tried it, never with any great success, long term anyway.

 Carers will want specified days, nights, weekends off etc, who will cover these ?

What happens when the carer is sick, or on holidays ?

What if the carer doesn’t get on with your mother ?

Would you be competent interviewing and vetting potential applicants ?

Your Mother is very vulnerable, how could you be sure she gets the care she needs ?

You would have to do job contracts and all that’s associated with PAYE, PRSI etc.

If the carer decides to leave for any reason, it’s back to square one again.

Just a few issues, I’m sure there are many more.


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## JoplinOne (26 Jul 2017)

I never knew how complicated it could be. It will require a lot of research. 

We could cover one or two nights a week probably between my wife and I, but it would be very difficult with small children, etc.

Thanks for all your input, it's much appreciated. I am due to go and see the doctors now to talk about it properly.


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## thedaddyman (26 Jul 2017)

Meals on wheels is largely voluntary, have to say it works fine where my Mam lives. It's unlikely the HSE will provide cooking etc, it more around making sure a person is up, dressed, taking their medication etc.


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## JoplinOne (26 Jul 2017)

@thedaddyman okay thanks, it's an option.

@twofor1 I would not want to rent out the house for definite while she is still alive, it would seem weird to do that (not judging others). But if we were to get her into a home on that side of the city, we may have to stay there the odd night, also to do work on the house.


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## Monbretia (26 Jul 2017)

My dad's home help will cook for breakfast for him every day but won't help with medication, apparently they aren't allowed they say!   So it seems rules are different everywhere.   The only help we were looking for on a medication front recently was to put in eye drops after an op, they had to be done several times a day and he was useless at doing it himself so it would have helped if they could have done it in the morning.


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## twofor1 (26 Jul 2017)

We used one of the bigger private home care companies with the HSE contributing most of the cost. Most of the carers were brilliant, they would cook, iron, light house work, go to the shops, whatever.

Meds were done in blister packs for different times of each day by the chemist. The carers were not allowed give medication but they could prompt, as in Paddy have you taken your morning tablets, once Paddy took the tablets the carer would note it in the daily log that Paddy took his morning tablets, same procedure for afternoon and evening. If there was any issue a family member would be notified.


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## JoplinOne (26 Jul 2017)

@twofor1 Do you mind me asking how the HSE contributed most of the cost, was it based on income and assets?


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## JoplinOne (26 Jul 2017)

Also, I have found her pension details. There is:

64k in a AMRF 
and 188k in an ARF

Does Fair Deal take these funds?


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## twofor1 (26 Jul 2017)

JoplinOne said:


> @twofor1 Do you mind me asking how the HSE contributed most of the cost, was it based on income and assets?



This was for a Home Care Package, I don't recall it been means tested. At that stage the family member could manage at home with help, we could look after the weekends no problem, but not always mid week, the PHN did her assessment and we were approved for one hour in the morning, afternoon and evening Monday to Friday, so 15 hours a week.

The HSE pay I think €23 per hour, the private care company charge I think around €25 per hour. We just had to pay the additional €2 per hour for 15 hours weekly and pay in full if there were any additional hours.

It meant that some one was definitely there morning afternoon and evening to ensure the client was fed, medicated and very importantly to ensure they drank, very often the elderly forget to drink and become dehydrated, which can have serious consequences.


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## twofor1 (26 Jul 2017)

JoplinOne said:


> Also, I have found her pension details. There is:
> 
> 64k in a AMRF
> and 188k in an ARF
> ...



Maybe someone else can explain exactly what AMRF's and ARF's are.

It’s not a question of do they take them,

If they can be cashed in I think they will be assessed at 7.5% as they would be an asset.

If it’s a pension from which she gets an annual income, then she will be assessed on 80% of the annual income.

Either way your Mother will benefit from Fair Deal.

If you ring your local Nursing Homes Support office, they should be able to clarify.


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## thedaddyman (26 Jul 2017)

home care package isn't means tested, if you can get it


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## JPSaltee (31 Jul 2017)

I employ an au pair for my elderly mother who lives alone. With a few issues, this has worked well for 4 years. However, my mother whilst she can get confused doesnt have the hallunciations etc and is in general easy to manage. I dont think you would find an au pair that would take on the role. I find its very important that you provide them with good working conditions and that they have a genuine oppurtunity to improve language/ learn about Irish culture/travel etc. and it sounds like this wouldnt be the case in your situation.

There are private companies, bluebird, home instead etc that you could use and you can reclaim some tax but they are expensive.

My mother goes to a very good local day care centre 2 days a week. They collect from home in the morning by bus and return her in the evening. They have many dementia patients. Ask your PHN they might have a suggestion for one?

As an only child also I fully sympthaise with you and the tough decisons you need to make.


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## JoplinOne (31 Jul 2017)

@JPSaltee Thanks, and thanks @twofor1 and @thedaddyman - I have been advised to set the Fair Deal process in motion. Now, I am trying to figure out the best choice of home for her. There have been recommendations from the consultant, so I will be starting there. Such an insidious disease.


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## JoplinOne (31 Jul 2017)

Any recommendations for a good financial advisor?


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## JoplinOne (31 Jul 2017)

My mother gave me a gift of 42k four years ago. What happens to this amount? Will I owe them this back through Fair Deal?


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## Marsha25 (1 Aug 2017)

I would imagine it would be assessed as part of her savings. You won't have to give it back. Incidentally did you declare it at the time? How are they to know about the gift if you don't mention it? My father had very little in the bank when applying for the fair deal. We were asked to provide an up to date bank statement. They didn't request statements previous to that.  So supposing he had gifted me 50k 4 years ago they wouldn't have known unless he told them. Whereas if he had sold his house within 5 years there would be a public record of it. Do they just accept what people tell them as gospel or are there cases where they fish for further documentation, I wonder.


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## JoplinOne (1 Aug 2017)

I never declared it at the time, she said it was a gift from my father's death, although it wasn't from his estate or anything. She just wanted to give me a little inheritance at the time.

I would be terrifed that if they found out I would be in trouble for not declaring it.

Would that be assessed at 7.5% or 80? Is a pension lump sum assessed as 7.5 or 80 per cent?


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## Marsha25 (1 Aug 2017)

Savings are assessed at 7.5% as is the house (discounting the first €36k of the overall total). I don't know about the lump sum pension though.  If you ring the fair deal you can ask without giving any details about your mum - just say you are looking into it.  Have a list of questions written out first.


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## JoplinOne (14 Aug 2017)

In reply to your last email, still not any clearer on what the AMF or AMRF, they will take 80% of the income from it, but as regards the lump sums I don't know whether or not they can take the money if it's wrapped up in investments. I will find out and reply for others to know. 

Fair Deal just want all the details.


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## jjm (14 Aug 2017)

JoplinOne said:


> In reply to your last email, still not any clearer on what the AMF or AMRF, they will take 80% of the income from it, but as regards the lump sums I don't know whether or not they can take the money if it's wrapped up in investments. I will find out and reply for others to know.
> 
> Fair Deal just want all the details.


Did you mean ARF


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## Slim (14 Aug 2017)

Hi. The value of the ARF or AMRF(Retirement Funds) will be assessed at 7.5% per annum and the income drawn down at 80% annually. As the fund is drawn down the value of 7.5% will decline.


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## JoplinOne (14 Aug 2017)

@Slim thanks, how do they physically get at the funds? Do they set up some kind of direct debit per year? @jim Apologies, meant ARF


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## Slim (14 Aug 2017)

Hi. They make their assessment and then the family will have to look at how the bill will be paid. Not sure that the family can draw it from the ARF or roll it into the Ancillary nursing home loan.


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## JoplinOne (3 Oct 2017)

@twofor1 and @Slim 

you kindly gave me advice a while back and I wanted to update you on the pension aspect.

So, my mother has a pension of 220k or thereabouts, which is wrapped up as 60k AMRF and 160k in the ARF. We gave full disclosure of all monies transferred and all income etc.

This money is wrapped up in investments that she receives 7k approx a year in two installments of 3.5k, (invested money and subject to fluctuations),

They're also including the 42k she gifted me. 

So the calculation is working out as: 

*Weekly Income: *

108 euro (7,000 euro  / 80% / 52 weeks)
199 (80% of 249 euro pension)

*Total weekly income:* 307 euro

*Principal residence:* 490 euro per week (7.5% for three years)

*Cash Assets*

Somehow, they have managed to ALSO have calculated the ARF and AMRF Lump sum as a cash asset? I rang to query what this amount was and I was told that even though my mother (or I as her power of attorney) can never cash this in as it's a government approved pension scheme and she gets nothing apart from 7k a year from this amount, that they are still counting it as an asset and assessing it accordingly. 

I find this a bit hard to take as, okay, she gets accrued monies every year but can't actually cash the money in a lump sum in.

There is something about being able to take 4% out of the AMRF every year, but my mother hasn't done this as she has been incapable mentally to do this. 

She has 60k in savings. So they are counting her 24k (the 60k from savings after the 36k allowance is deducted), the ARF and AMRF at 7.5% of 220,000k and the 42k she gifted me. To come to that figure. / 7.5 / 52.

So now (with this 412 euro) the calculation is 1280 in total. But the loan part won't be going through for two months, but I am assured it will be backdated. I now have to facilitate payment for her care at the full amount of 1180 a week. 

My question is: how long do the payments from her go through for and - can they touch the 36k? 

I would love to protest this calculation of the ARF and AMRF on her behalf but I know the answer will be that it's a fair deal. If it all has to go to make sure she's in a nice nursing home (which she is now there two weeks) then I am happy for my inheritance to go, however I still don't think that if she can't get money directly from lump sums then it's not fair.


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## twofor1 (4 Oct 2017)

JoplinOne said:


> My question is: how long do the payments from her go through for and - can they touch the 36k?



Hi JoplinOne, thanks for the update.

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Your Mam’s assessed contribution will be payable as long as she is in care, even if that means using up the €36K.

Bear in mind though;

The family home will be disregarded from the financial assessment after 3 years.

You can ask to be reassessed annually, this can be very beneficial if savings have reduced.


[QUOTE="JoplinOne, post: 1533383, member: 101342"][USER=24812]

I would love to protest this calculation of the ARF and AMRF on her behalf but I know the answer will be that it's a fair deal. If it all has to go to make sure she's in a nice nursing home (which she is now there two weeks) then I am happy for my inheritance to go, however I still don't think that if she can't get money directly from lump sums then it's not fair.[/QUOTE]

If you are not happy with your Mam’s financial assessment and think it is unfair, then why not appeal the decision to the HSE’s National Appeals Office ? All it will cost you is a stamp.

Although a totally different issue, the link below is an example of how Nursing Home Support Offices who do the financial assessments, can get it wrong and how appealing their decisions can be very beneficial.

[URL]https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/fair-deal-%E2%80%93-financial-reassessment-after-one-of-a-couple-dies.205147/[/URL][/user][/COLOR]


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## JoplinOne (4 Oct 2017)

Thanks @twofor1 I will get on and appeal it. 

When it says here: 
*Your contribution to care*
_
Having looked at your income and assets, the Financial Assessment will work out your contribution to care. You will contribute:
_

_80% of your income (less deductions below) and_
_7.5% of the value of any assets per annum (5% if the application was made before 25 July 2013)_
_However, the first €36,000 of your assets, or €72,000 for a couple, will not be counted at all in the Financial Assessmen_t.

- Can I just go back to them and say that - her savings have now dwindled and this is all she has to pay for her care and exempt that 36k so that I can keep it there for here in case she needs it?

Surely they can't come and take that as well?


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## twofor1 (5 Oct 2017)

JoplinOne said:


> Somehow, they have managed to ALSO have calculated the ARF and AMRF Lump sum as a cash asset? I rang to query what this amount was and I was told that even though my mother (or I as her power of attorney) can never cash this in as it's a government approved pension scheme and she gets nothing apart from 7k a year from this amount, that they are still counting it as an asset and assessing it accordingly.
> 
> I find this a bit hard to take as, okay, she gets accrued monies every year but can't actually cash the money in a lump sum in.
> 
> There is something about being able to take 4% out of the AMRF every year, but my mother hasn't done this as she has been incapable mentally to do this.




Presumably the reason why the fund itself is also assessed is withdrawals can be made from it, as you say 4% annually.

While understandably your Mam is unable to make these withdrawals, but surely you as her power of attorney can make the withdrawals on her behalf.


[QUOTE="JoplinOne, post: 1533601, member: 101342"]
Can I just go back to them and say that - her savings have now dwindled and this is all she has to pay for her care and exempt that 36k so that I can keep it there for here in case she needs it?
[/QUOTE]

No, that’s not the way the scheme works.

You tell the HSE what you have, they tell you what your contribution is. It is then up to you to pay this amount to the nursing home, the HSE pay the balance. I’m not aware of any Fair Deal facility whereby one can have €36K put aside in case it is needed.


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## Sarenco (5 Oct 2017)

Slim said:


> The value of the ARF or AMRF(Retirement Funds) will be assessed at 7.5% per annum and the income drawn down at 80% annually.


Is that not treating the same funds as both an asset (while in the ARF/AMRF) and income (when distributed from the ARF/AMRF)?  Surely that can't be right.

Presumably the HSE doesn't include the actuarial value of a public sector pension as an asset – it simply treats the payments received as income.  No?


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## Marsha25 (5 Oct 2017)

We had to sell our dad's house as his own bit of savings was dwindling fast and he needed the cash funds to pay the home - such is the nature of the scheme.  I often wonder how those on a state pension with a house worth a few hundred thousand manage to have the funds to hand.


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## Protocol (5 Oct 2017)

The 7k PA pension income would be the 4% distribution from the ARF AMRF.


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## Sarenco (5 Oct 2017)

Protocol said:


> The 7k PA pension income would be the 4% distribution from the ARF AMRF.


Understood Protocol but is that not double counting the same €7k as both an asset and an income?  That seems very odd to me.


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## twofor1 (6 Oct 2017)

Protocol said:


> The 7k PA pension income would be the 4% distribution from the ARF AMRF.



I am not familiar with the workings of ARF / AMRF’s.

My understanding from what the O/p said at #32 is her mother currently receives an income from these funds of €7K annually. Apart from the income she can also take 4% out of the AMRF annually, but she has not done this due to her mental health.


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## Protocol (6 Oct 2017)

An asset and the income from an asset are two different things.

If the means test look at assets and income, then:

the ARF fund is an asset
the 3%/4% distribution from the ARF fund is income

Twofor1: you seem to be suggesting that the 7k pa income is somehow different from the 4% distribution - I suggest they are the same.

My father has an ARF. Each year he draws down 4% or 5% of the fund, which most people do, as there is an income tax anyways on a deemed distribution.

So you may as well draw down that %, as you will pay income tax on that % anyways.

So my father gets an annual ARF payment, classified as income, of 5% of the fund value.


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## Protocol (6 Oct 2017)

*Imputed distribution*
One of the rules governing ARFs is that tax, Universal Social Charge and PRSI, if applicable, must be deducted as if income were taken, even if no income is taken in a particular tax year. Below we explain how this is applied to an ARF.


From the year you turn 61, tax is payable on a minimum withdrawal on the 30 November* each year of 4% of the value of the fund at that date. This withdrawal is liable to income tax, Universal Social Charge and PRSI, if applicable. From the year you turn 71 the minimum withdrawal is increased to 5%.
Where the fund value is greater than €2 million the minimum withdrawal will be 6%. If you have more than one Approved Retirement Fund (ARF) and these are with different managers then you must appoint a nominee Qualified Fund Manager (QFM) who will be responsible for ensuring a withdrawal of 6% is taken from the total value of your ARFs. It is your responsibility to let your ARF providers know if you have other Approved Retirement Funds and Vested Personal Retirement Savings Accounts with a total value of greater than €2 million.
Where a greater withdrawal is made during the year, tax will be paid on the greater withdrawal amount. The minimum withdrawal rate is set in line with the required imputed distribution amount which may be altered to reflect changes in legislation. You can choose to take a higher withdrawal amount if you wish. 
You should seek advice on whether it is appropriate to draw down the 4%/5% or 6% of your fund value.
Annual imputed distribution reduces the benefit of gross roll up**.
_*These amounts and the valuation dates may change as specified by the Government. The information is correct as at June 2015.
**The investments are allowed to grow tax-free until such time as an event happens which incurs a tax liability, known as a chargeable
event._


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## twofor1 (6 Oct 2017)

Protocol said:


> Twofor1: you seem to be suggesting that the 7k pa income is somehow different from the 4% distribution - I suggest they are the same.



And you are probably right, I have clearly stated I am not familiar with the workings of ARF / AMRF’s, I’m simply trying to get an understanding of these funds, and how they are treated for Fair Deal purposes.


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## Slim (7 Oct 2017)

Sarenco said:


> Is that not treating the same funds as both an asset (while in the ARF/AMRF) and income (when distributed from the ARF/AMRF)?  Surely that can't be right.
> 
> Presumably the HSE doesn't include the actuarial value of a public sector pension as an asset – it simply treats the payments received as income.  No?


Sorry for delay in replying. Yes, it seems to be double assessing but I did query it and read up the regs. Be interesting to see how JopliOne's appeal goes.


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## Joey99 (5 Mar 2021)

Reviving old thread I know but, to avoid the apparent double-counting of assets and income, what's to stop someone nominally taking no income out of their ARF, paying the 7.5% of fund value as asset based contribution and filing with Revenue on the basis of the 7.5% drawdown?


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## Ryan (13 Mar 2021)

Dementia needs a specialist type of care, I don’t think an au pair type arrangement would work, only if it was in addition to having more qualified careers helping.


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## Thirsty (13 Mar 2021)

And that last reply highlights the perils of reviving old threads!


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