# Beneficiary issue



## Veast5 (21 Jan 2021)

Hi everyone,

I'm glad to have found this resource. I am executor to a will, the instructions of which are very clear and precise so there is no ambiguity.

It was my mother's wish that the family house be sold and divided equally amongst 9 siblings. 4 of these siblings live abroad. 2 for different reasons are making it difficult to obtain their PPS number. The will has been left over a year with 2 previous executors failing to even start proceedings. I have gathered and submitted all relevant information I have up until this time.

My question is: with several siblings trying to move this forward and some not cooperating, is there a way to start the probate application regardless?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


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## Thirsty (21 Jan 2021)

Are you doing DIY probate? Or do you have a solicitor?

Have you told the unco-operative siblings that they can't have their  share without the PPS number?


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## MOB (22 Jan 2021)

Veast5 said:


> My question is: with 7 siblings trying to move this forward and 2 not cooperating, is there a way to start the probate application regardless?


Yes, you can go ahead with probate.


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## Veast5 (22 Jan 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Are you doing DIY probate? Or do you have a solicitor?
> 
> Have you told the unco-operative siblings that they can't have their  share without the PPS number?



Thanks for your reply!

Yes, there is a solicitor involved.

I told both that they will be unable to receive their share. One is taking a moral high ground about they want no interest in money. When asked if they wish to decline their share of the inheritance the subject quickly changes.

The other wants to purchase the property. I would have no issue with this but he doesn't have the money are ability to do so in any capacity. They both live abroad. 

I will put it to the solicitor to proceed then. 

Thanks!


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## Veast5 (22 Jan 2021)

MOB said:


> Yes, you can go ahead with probate.



The solicitor has advised me to collect as much info as possible. I've exhausted all attempts to get these 2 to co operate. 

What do I tell the solicitor to do to get him to progress?


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## Clamball (22 Jan 2021)

My husband had the same issue with a sibling who would not give him a pps number because “he did not have enough time to grieve”.  But while clearing out his mothers house my husband found various bits of paperwork and one had his brothers pps number on it so he was able to progress.  Of course months later it was “what is the delay and where is my share of the sale”.  Families!

Whah husband was planning to do was obtain his brothers birth certificate from the births, deaths and marriages office.  Not sure if he would have failed at that point, then contact dept of social welfare and ask for his brothers pps no with all his proof on why he needed it.  He probably would have failed but at least he would have tried.

What you should ultimately do is instruct your solicitor to get probate, progress with the sale, distribute the money to the 7 cooperative siblings.  Then send a letter to the last two saying estate is complete, they can apply to the solicitor for their portion whenever they want.  The solicitor holds their money in the client account and they deal with the solicitor, whenever they feel the need to obtain the cash.

As executor you can proceed without co-operation from the beneficiaries.  Just instruct your solicitor.


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## Veast5 (22 Jan 2021)

Clamball said:


> My husband had the same issue with a sibling who would not give him a pps number because “he did not have enough time to grieve”.  But while clearing out his mothers house my husband found various bits of paperwork and one had his brothers pps number on it so he was able to progress.  Of course months later it was “what is the delay and where is my share of the sale”.  Families!
> 
> Whah husband was planning to do was obtain his brothers birth certificate from the births, deaths and marriages office.  Not sure if he would have failed at that point, then contact dept of social welfare and ask for his brothers pps no with all his proof on why he needed it.  He probably would have failed but at least he would have tried.
> 
> ...



You would have thought that someone would feel privileged to be named as a beneficiary eh? 

Thanks for your advice. Before I found this forum I was tip toeing around people who are treating me like trash. I didn't realize that the onus is on them to cooperate and not me to placate their nonsense. 

I will instruct the solicitor to proceed.


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## PMU (22 Jan 2021)

Veast5 said:


> One is taking a moral high ground about they want no interest in money. When asked if they wish to decline their share of the inheritance the subject quickly changes.


You should write to the two non-resident beneficiaries asking  for their PPSNs as you need these to settle any inheritance tax issues of the non-resident beneficiaries that may arise.  This is a complex issue and e.g. you could look at this:   CAT – Part 02 - Statement of Affairs (Probate) Form SA.2 (revenue.ie) .

You should also ask them to confirm in writing if they are or are not disclaiming their interest in the inheritance, as again this has tax implications.


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## Veast5 (22 Jan 2021)

PMU said:


> You should write to the two non-resident beneficiaries asking  for their PPSNs



I have done this several times now over the last couple of months and am met with the same runaround answers. 

I have also asked them to confirm if they wish to disclaim their share. 

There's unlikely to be tax issues as the estate isn't worth a lot and is being shared 9 ways.


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## Pinoy adventure (22 Jan 2021)

Op are you the only executor ?


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## valery (22 Jan 2021)

For form SA2, PPS number is required for any beneficiary who will receive €12,000 or more


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## Veast5 (22 Jan 2021)

Pinoy adventure said:


> Op are you the only executor ?


 
Yes, I'm the sole executor


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## Veast5 (22 Jan 2021)

valery said:


> For form SA2, PPS number is required for any beneficiary who will receive €12,000 or more



Ok cool, my solicitor will know of this I'm sure. Although I don't even think the estate will bare that much.


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## Veast5 (25 Jan 2021)

Update: I've instructed the solicitor to proceed with the probate application. 

He has previously expressed that he needs all info to progress. Both troublesome beneficiaries (living abroad) still haven't submitted their pps numbers. 

I've also bluntly asked him to be more forthcoming with information as I feel he's drip feeding me.

I'll post after his response.


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## Seagull (25 Jan 2021)

Are the PPS numbers needed for probate or selling the property? I would have expected them only to be needed for distribution.


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## Veast5 (25 Jan 2021)

Seagull said:


> Are the PPS numbers needed for probate or selling the property? I would have expected them only to be needed for distribution.



This is the Grey area I was needing clarification on. My solicitor has being vague about this in correspondence. I have been trying everything to get these 2 people to respond so I can proceed and start taking proper care of the estate. 

He also failed to inform me that I could access funds from her bank account to pay for expenses.


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## Thirsty (25 Jan 2021)

> He also failed to inform me that I could access funds from her bank account to pay for expenses


Whose bank account?  If you mean the deceased, you can't.  For very limited circumstances, e.g. funeral expenses, banks will pay invoices direct, but you won't be allowed to draw funds until probate is completed.


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## Veast5 (25 Jan 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Whose bank account?  If you mean the deceased, you can't.  For very limited circumstances, e.g. funeral expenses, banks will pay invoices direct, but you won't be allowed to draw funds until probate is completed.



Yeah, I need to pay burial expenses. Would that be applicable?


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## Thirsty (25 Jan 2021)

Yes. 

You ask the funeral director to send the invoice directly to the bank. 

It's a standard practice & as long as the funds are there it will be paid promptly.


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## Veast5 (25 Jan 2021)

Brilliant, thanks


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## Veast5 (26 Jan 2021)

Another update: 

Reached an important step today! The probate application has been filed and funeral expenses have been paid! 

Heartfelt thanks to everyone for their advise. You've saved me weeks of worry and stress!


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## Pmc365 (26 Jan 2021)

I think the Probate application can be progressed in circumstances where the beneficaries refuse to give their PPS numbers. What a thankless job being an executor or administrator is. In my case I'm very worried an administrator will overcharge for his services as he has form for this overcharging thousands. The Executor or Administrator is only entitled to ' out of pocket expenses' unless charging clause in the will.


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## Vanessa (31 Jan 2021)

Veast5 said:


> Another update:
> 
> Reached an important step today! The probate application has been filed and funeral expenses have been paid!
> 
> Heartfelt thanks to everyone for their advise. You've saved me weeks of worry and stress!


Well done. I have been executor on two occasions and it can be an onerous task. Both had a number of sibling beneficiaries, some old and living in the U.K. The first was a real learning experience and showed to me how grasping some people are. It took a lot of time, travel and expense. However I had received very good advice as regards claiming for my time and effort so I left people in no doubt that I would need to be recompensed for it. The expenses werent the problem. It was the disagreements caused by a few graspers who wanted to ignore the wishes of the deceased as clearly expressed in the Will. They wanted the estate distributed on the "Its what she would have wanted" principle. Ignoring the fact that the Will showed exactly what she wanted. By the time the second Will had to be sorted I knew what needed to be obtained such as PPS numbers, Marriage Certs etc so kept any contact and discussion to an absolute minimum. 
I found U.K. solicitors a lot more cooperative and straightforward to deal with. They would not entertain contact from anyone except the Executor.


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## Bronte (31 Jan 2021)

Veast5 said:


> This is the Grey area I was needing clarification on. My solicitor has being vague about this in correspondence. I have been trying everything to get these 2 people to respond so I can proceed and start taking proper care of the estate.
> 
> He also failed to inform me that I could access funds from her bank account to pay for expenses.


Have you been informed in writing of the solicitor costs?


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## catnonie (22 Feb 2021)

Hi just read the thread and hope you don't mind me asking question. I am executor also of my Grandfathers will - there are 4 beneficiaries (2 abroad) and I have all PPS numbers. In completing SA2 on my account and they request value of the house.  Can I estimate here - it was valued 3 years ago for fair deal scheme I rang auctioneer he gave me ballpark but of course it all depends on demand etc.  Is an estimate ok in this document? 
Is there any reason why I can't do apply for probate myself? It is very simple estate just house and a bank account.
Thanks


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## Thirsty (23 Feb 2021)

catnonie said:


> Is an estimate ok in this document?
> Is there any reason why I can't do apply for probate myself?


Your first question is likely the reason I would answer "yes, there is a reason" to the second question.

DIY probate is doable; but you need to do your research and fully understand what you are doing.

There's a thread on DIY probate on this board, start there.


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## PMU (23 Feb 2021)

catnonie said:


> Hi just read the thread and hope you don't mind me asking question. I am executor also of my Grandfathers will - there are 4 beneficiaries (2 abroad) and I have all PPS numbers. In completing SA2 on my account and they request value of the house.  Can I estimate here - it was valued 3 years ago for fair deal scheme I rang auctioneer he gave me ballpark but of course it all depends on demand etc.  Is an estimate ok in this document?
> Is there any reason why I can't do apply for probate myself? It is very simple estate just house and a bank account.
> Thanks


It's the value of the property at the date of death, not the value of the property for the purposes of the fair deal scheme.  Ask the auctioneer for a formal valuation of the property on the date of death of the deceased for the purposes of the SA2 form.  He/she'll probably give it to you for free if you indicate you'll give him/her the job of selling the house.

Revenue have a guide on how to complete the SA2 form.  If you can do this, and it's a simple estate, there is no reason why you should not be able to do probate yourself.


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## catnonie (23 Feb 2021)

> Thanks for the replies I appreciate it.


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