# Overpaying mortgage but wish to revert to original schedule EBS insisting on SFS form



## aido71 (10 Apr 2012)

I hope thread title ok but I think sums up my position.

I have posted before and mentioned that we have been overpaying ppr mortgage to the tune of about €750/800 per month. Original term was 20 yrs and from time to time I increased repayments (advised EBS in writing) and always confirmed that reverting at any stage to original schedule was available to us. Fine so far. 

We now have 3yrs left to run at current repayment level. However we have been thinking lately of freeing up this extra money mainly for lifestyle reasons. We both have secure jobs but over past couple of years as with everyone our monthly net income is down by over €1k. We are not in financial distress but have decided but would like to have this extra money to build up some extra savings. 

Problem is EBS won't deal with us until we complete the SFS and provide P60s payslips etc. I have gone thru this form in detail and it is very explicit that this is for mortgage restructuring for persons in financial difficulty. Now while some might say what's my problem I object to this as we are not in arrears and are simply requesting to revert to original schedule as we are entitled to do. In fact I am quite annoyed that EBS are in effect withholding my own money from me until I jump through hoops.

Also the form states that it will be reviewed and a decision will be made. In effect they could refuse. Has anyone else had this? On a more serious note I am concerned that if I pursue this and do as requested that this will be noted on my record that I restructured my mortgage due to financial difficulty. 

Sorry for long post but am quite annoyed and please don't start telling me to stop complaining.

I know a lot of people are in real difficulty but everyones situation is of relevance to themselves! 

Thanks all . A


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## kickstart (10 Apr 2012)

aido71 said:


> However we have been thinking lately of freeing up this extra money mainly for lifestyle reasons.



Are you simply looking to stop making overpayments, and revert to your normal payment amount per month, or do you want back some or all of the money you've already used to pay down the loan?

If you want back money you've already paid off on the loan, I think all mortgage providers would see this as re-borrowing, unless you have made a specific agreement about the status of the overpayments in advance of starting them.

By making overpayments, and having them credited against the loan principal, you've reduced your overall interest bill. If you want to undo the overpayments, your provider will want some pro-quo.

If you simply want to stop over-paying your mortgage, and your provider is reluctant, make a written complaint, which should unwedge them from their position (or serve as the first step in escalating to the ombudsman).


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## aido71 (10 Apr 2012)

We simply want to revert to original repayments. We do not want to get money back nor are we entitled to. I was always aware of that and that us fine. The argument from the EBS is that each time we increased monthly repayments we were in effect restructuring the mortgage I.e reducing term from 20 to 15 to 12 yrs. we were always putting the payment directly into mortgage repayments. My issue is that now we want to revert to original repayment schedule we are being treated as if we want to reduce our repayments for financial reasons. Bear in mind all increases in monthly payments heretofore were simply done with a letter requesting such. I also asked EBS what would happen if I simply arranged to only pay the original amount per month. I did not get a satisfactory reply but I presume I would then be considered to be tecnically defaulting and my credit rating affected accordingly!! I am increasingly frustrated at the attitude of EBS and is making me more determined than ever to give them as little as possible! Ironically I was going to use extra cash to invest in one of their savings options!! Now not a hope no matter how attractive they may be!! Nose face etc!!


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## wbbs (10 Apr 2012)

If you asked EBS each time you increased your repayments to recalculate the term left to new lower term based on new repayments then you did indeed restructure the agreement and they would be correct in assessing your request to now extend your term under whatever criteria they use now, which unfortunately for you is related to distressed loans.  Years ago a request to extend term would be looked at differently and subject to income, age and sufficient life cover would probably be granted without any difficulties.  

To enable yourself revert to original term you should have just overpaid without officially changing the term of the mortgage, it would still have been cleared earlier but would officially have the same end day as when drawn down.   That date is no longer there as you did in effect restructure it.

While I understand your thinking on the matter, unfortunately you are requesting this at a time when banks are trying to extend as few mortgages as possible in order to get in as much funds as possible.   The argument that you want to invest in one of their products in fact possibly makes it worse as they are always looking at worst case scenario, for example, fast forward few years - you lose job maybe, in arrears, in front of judge and you say but they let me reduce my payments to invest in their own products, judge says - bold bank and doesn't give them what they want.


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## 44brendan (10 Apr 2012)

You have a valid case here and should progress the issue with the EBS. According to your post you have consistently paid a higher level of payments than required as per the initial loan agreement. (i.e. your loan balance is now at a much reduced level than it would have been had you maintained your original agreement). there is no question that making voluntarly additional mortgage payments is a commitment to a new loan schedule. This is not a valid position for the BS to take.
You are now fully entitled to revert to a repayment level that will clear your loan by the original agreed date. If EBS refuse to change the DD amount then cancel the DD and commence repayments by Standing Order. If they fail to re-instate the DD for the reduced level of repayments then contact the Ombudsman.
In replying I am assuming the circumstances relating to your mortgage are as described above.


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## oldnick (10 Apr 2012)

Thank goodness for brendan44's reply.  Just read through this thread with growing disbelief until his post.

I've often topped up payments on bank loans and then missed complete payments as it suited me , knowing always that I was on schedule to meet or (usually) beat the final deadline. 

I'm doing it now- I paid extra for the last few months  and stopped this months payment because I needed the cash. Never a bother.


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## aido71 (10 Apr 2012)

Thanks Brendan... Yes you have it correct and my difficulty accepting EBS point of view is that previously when increasing repayments the letter I wrote simply said ' please increase my monthly repayments by €xxx " unfortunately I don't have any copies of these and confirmation that I could revert to original repayments was always verbal... But that was when one could deal with banks on the phone! Perhaps I am being over sensitive but having always played by the rules and behaved in a responsible manner I am infuriated that I am being treated this way. To be fair to the branch staff the manager is sympathetic but her hands appear to be tied in most matters and if she is to be believed can hardly answer a phone these days without referring it up the food chain! Thanks for input everyone.....


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## kickstart (10 Apr 2012)

aido71 said:


> The argument from the EBS is that each time we increased monthly repayments we were in effect restructuring the mortgage I.e reducing term from 20 to 15 to 12 yrs. we were always putting the payment directly into mortgage repayments.



A poor argument on their part, imo. If you can dig out your mortgage contract, examine it for clauses about over payments, which will probably state something closer to your understanding than their argument. 

Unless your previous letters expressly requested them to restructure the loan with a different end date, then they do not have your express consent to their "understanding", and this will play a large part in helping any third party mediator (like the ombudsman) in assisting with resolving this.

I think it's time you made a formal written complaint about their behavior to their customer services department, and requested a formal position from them on this. Explain your side, quote your previous correspondence, and request that they desist from treating your overpayments as their rightful repayment schedule. If/when that doesn't work, write another letter to the financial service ombudsman, and include your letters (down through the years if you can), their responses, and I think you'll have a good case.


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## kickstart (10 Apr 2012)

aido71 said:


> ...unfortunately I don't have any copies of these and confirmation that I could revert to original repayments was always verbal...



You can ask EBS to provide you with all documentation about your loan. If they become difficult with this, then a data protection complaint will whip them into line. The office of the Data Protection commissioner takes a while to process things, but they get particularly good results.


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## 44brendan (10 Apr 2012)

> To be fair to the branch staff the manager is sympathetic but her hands appear to be tied in most matters and if she is to be believed can hardly answer a phone these days without referring it up the food chain


This is not an adequate excuse for the apparent inexcusable behaviour of the Bank on this issue. Clients are entitled to a competent level of service from all financial institutions & you should ensure that you do not let this matter rest with a reluctant letter of acceptance from the local Bank manager. send a registered letter of complaint to both the local office and the Bank CEO. make sure that you accurately detail the chain of events up to date and your complete dissatisfaction with the response from the response. Specify that you are referring the issue both to your solicitor and the Ombudsman unles it is addressed both speedily and effeciently.
Sometimes I wonder how these people manage to hold down a job


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## aido71 (10 Apr 2012)

Thanks all for your input. I was beginning to think I was the one being irrational good to see maybe I am somewhat normal after all! In fact while this started as just an option to maybe free up some cash is turning into a point of principle as I feel like we are being held to ransom in some way! Anyway will get to writing and will see how I get on. I will keep everyone posted on how I get on. Once again thanks for the input.... Greatly appreciated


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Apr 2012)

Hi Aido

This is ridiculous on EBS's part. 

you need to escalate it to someone more senior to sort it out.

I would suggest reducing payment but you may end up with a bad credit record.

brendan


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## FioBi (10 Apr 2012)

Make a formal complaint to the EBS and let them know you are also contacting the Banking Ombudsman or Financial Regulator to check if what they are saying is true. Maybe then they will deal with you.

I have to say I am amazed. I am with EBS also and was just about to increase my monthly repayments but was concerned about ensuring that I could revert to original payment schedule at any time. I think I will just keep saving and then go in and ask for a one off lump sump payment agreement


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## liamo69 (10 Apr 2012)

*same issue with the ebs*

i often read the threads on tracker mortgages and only after reading this one did i decide to register.

i have exactly the same problem as aido71 and i can completely understand the frustration.

i have a tracker with the ebs and have been overpaying twice the normal repayment since 2006. we have a second baby on the way in June and as a result i want to free up some of this overpayment for my family.

previously all i had to do to set up the overpayment was to write a letter to the branch and it was sorted. so in March i did the same and the staff in the branch said that was fine. then i got a call from ebs head office saying that as i was restructuring the loan that i had to fill in the SFS, give three payslips and the last three months bank statements and set up a new mortgage protection policy.

i was very annoyed by the ebs for asking me to do this and argued it out with them for about two weeks, but they insisted that i have to do this.

i also asked then for my original mortgage contract and i got it and there is no mention of any of this in that, albeit it dates from 1999.

so today i filled in the SFS, got the other details and have arranged the new mortgage protection policy.

but i am still annoyed and after reading these threads i really don't want to give the ebs this information as i have never missed a repayment and have never been in arrears.

any advice Brendan or others?

thanks


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## aido71 (10 Apr 2012)

Hi liamo.....not that it changes anything but good to know i am not alone!...I was the same....told just put it in writing then suddenly all changed and hit with requests for SFS..P60s..payslips the works...(BTW i am not on tracker just SVR)....excuse from Branch is new Legislation requires this.
Based on replies here am going to chase this one all the way.....gonna start with letter to Branch and Head Office and take from there. As i mentioned at present dont need the money to survive and in fact the idea of main mortgage finished in 3yrs highly attractive. But i want to be able to access this money if needs be (have second property rented..if tenant left then would have to find aprox €650pm and with increased taxes/reduced pay etc our safety margin of income/expenditure dramatically reduced).i am sure it may take a while for responses but will def post back either way.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Apr 2012)

> excuse from Branch is new Legislation requires this.



Hi Aido

This could well be an unintended consequence of the Code of Conduct on Mortgage Arrears.

Ask them what legislation requires this.

Then write to the Consumer Codes Section of the Central Bank and ask them if that is their reading of it. I doubt it is.

brendan


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## oldnick (11 Apr 2012)

One consequence of this bank's actions is that borrowers will be reluctant to make extra payments. So, bank is effectively discouraging people from paying off early.

I have become a bit nervous about continuing my habit of paying off lump sums or bigger monthly payments and will now double-check with my lender-AIB that there's no chance of doing what Ebs are doing.

Maybe news media should be made aware of this.


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## LittlePiggy (11 Apr 2012)

I have been overpaying my mortgage for 2 years with the EBS (with the EFFECT of reducing the term, but not actually restructuring the agreed term) and was about to reduce the payment back to the standard required amount for the same reasons as the OP. I was told upon contacting the branch that all I had to do was to send in a letter requesting that the overpayment stops. He even told me how much it would be when I stopped the overpayment.

I will let you know what happens!


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## liamo69 (11 Apr 2012)

Hi Brendan

The ebs told me that it was as a result of the code of condiuct on mortgage arrears. It didnt make any difference how I argued it with them, they kept quoting the new legislation. I replied by saying that I was never in arrears or never even missed a repayment, so the legislation should not apply to me. But they would not accept this.

Aido, i still understand your frustration, my mortgage has 4 years left, but family circumstances mean that I need to free up the overpayment money. The level of detail that they ask for in the SFS is very intrusive for someone with a good credit rating.

Littlepiggy, I was also told by my local branch that all that was required was a letter. Wait until it goes to head office.....Head office they told me that I had in fact restructured 6 years ago when I requested to overpay which did reduce the term. I think the same may apply to you....


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## 44brendan (11 Apr 2012)

Please refer to my earlier post. 



44brendan said:


> This is not an adequate excuse for the apparent  inexcusable behaviour of the Bank on this issue.
> 
> Clients are entitled  to a competent level of service from all financial institutions &  you should ensure that you do not let this matter rest with a reluctant  letter of acceptance from the local Bank manager. send a registered  letter of complaint to both the local office and the Bank CEO. make sure  that you accurately detail the chain of events up to date and your  complete dissatisfaction with the response from the response.
> 
> Specify  that you are referring the issue both to your solicitor and the  Ombudsman unles it is addressed both speedily and effeciently.



Voluntary overpaying a mortgage/loan does not negate the original contract agreement, irrespective of the attitude of the Bank/Financial Institution. 

I assume that you have a written response from the Bank. Your next approach (unfortunately) is to complain to the FSO?

Do not continuing making the high repayments (if this puts you under financial pressure) while awaiting a response from the FSO. The law of contract also applies here, but I would hope and expect that the FSO will accept your side of this disagreement. 

There is no rationale for voluntary overpayments being an implicit change of a loan agreement.


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## liamo69 (11 Apr 2012)

brendan44, i dont have a written response as such. i have a number of emails from a chap that works there. i've asked for his managers name and today i've written to her to get a written response. when i have a response in writing i will then contact the FSO.

i've also received my original contract agreement from the ebs and there is nothing in there that prevents me or them from doing what i've asked.

i'll wait and see what the written response says and then i'll pursue it with the FSO.

i'll post when i have more info.......


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## liamo69 (12 Apr 2012)

Brendan B...if you did post me a PM yesterday, i would be interested in doing that, depending how I get on with my letter to the manager and the CEO of the EBS that I sent yesterday.

I cant figure out how to reply to a PM....


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## Stronge (12 Apr 2012)

I have a tracker mortgage with AIB that had 22 years left, I decided to ask them to increase my payments so that it would be cleared off in 15 years.  I also got them to send me a letter stating I would be able to revert to my original term and dates in the future if I so wished.  I felt that I needed to have that in writing from them just to cover myself.  Initially, I did not get the letter from them but I wrote again and I now have their letter safely in my file, in case I need it!


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## liamo69 (17 Apr 2012)

Further  to my post on the 11th of April, the EBS head office rang me this  afternoon and said that they had processed my request to extend the  mortgage back to its original loan maturity date. I didn't have to fill  out the standard financial statement or provide 3 month bank statements or provide 3  payslips.


  So the issue has been resolved without the code of conduct for mortgage arrears applying to my loan.


 Aido71, it should be the same situation for you. I would advise writing to the manager who if looking at you loan and send the letter to the CEO too, just as I did.....


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## aido71 (18 Apr 2012)

Liamo69 that is great to hear! I spoke with the manager of my branch last week and was still sticking to the 'my hands are tied' line but she did encourage me to write to head office. So letters to both branch and head office are done... Will let you know what response I receive ....... More optimistic now having read your post!


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Apr 2012)

Liamo

Well done.

It's good to see common sense prevailing. 

Brendan


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## liamo69 (19 Apr 2012)

thanks Brendan and Aido71

Aido71, they have to do the same for you now as your situation is the same as mine. Good luck with it


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## aido71 (19 Apr 2012)

Be interesting to see what happens. I am awaiting also copy of original agreement and other correspondence. The one I await with interest is what they claim is their reply to my requests to increase monthly payments. I have seen on their system my letters..... Very basic..'please increase monthly by €xxx etc please advise new repayments etc". The branch manager maintains they would have replied in writing though I genuinely never recall receiving confirmation letters ( maybe I did but I increased 3/4 times and although my filing system is to say the least chaotic I never throw stuff out and can find no such letter). She claims to have found one but funnily enough wasn't able to pull it up from the system while I was there with her! Even if they sent out such letters my request I don't believe was a mortgage restructure as she claims. Still I await with interest. I will update as soon as I hear something.


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## Bronte (20 Apr 2012)

liamo69 said:


> and set up a new mortgage protection policy.


 
If this has in any way whatsoever costs you due to the banks errors in making you do things that were not necessary then they need to reinstate your old policy and reimburse you any cost or loss.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Apr 2012)

I understand that the EBS may have changed their policy on this as it's clearly nothing to do with the Mortgage Arrears Code. 

Aido, I would expect that they will allow you change your repayments to the original schedule.

Brendan


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## kickstart (20 Apr 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I understand that the EBS may have changed their policy on this as it's clearly nothing to do with the Mortgage Arrears Code.



I'm still bowled over that they had the brass neck to try and treat excess payments as their contracted due payment, without any attempt at getting the OP (and others) to sign up to it. Even had they issued a letter saying they were going to do this (which it seems they have trouble producing) it would be difficult to see the financial services ombudsman (or a court) treating this as an acceptable way to go about altering a fundamental aspect of a contract.

BTW, I tried looking up antonyms for arrears, but couldn't find anything particularly satisfactory.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Apr 2012)

> I tried looking up antonyms for arrears, but couldn't find anything particularly satisfactory.




"forerears"? 

But I think that "payments in advance" is the more usual term.


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Apr 2012)

OK, it's official - EBS have admitted that they were wrong. 

Charlie Weston reports in today's Irish Independent 

*EBS clients mistakenly told their mortgages in arrears*





> A MORTGAGE lender has blamed an error in its  systems for wrongly treating a number of customers as being in arrears.
> 
> 
> The mortgage holders had been overpaying their home loans in a bid to speed up the payments and reduce the overall cost.
> ...


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## 44brendan (24 Apr 2012)

Inference from this article was that error was related to the computer system. based on OP here and other posts, error was predominately human. It does'nt lend much to the credibility of Bank management!


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## neddynasty (24 Apr 2012)

44brendan said:


> Inference from this article was that error was related to the computer system. based on OP here and other posts, error was predominately human. It does'nt lend much to the credibility of Bank management!



I had 3 errors with my EBS mortgage account that were put down to human error. After the 3rd error I was assured it wouldn't happen again as they had now computerised everything. That was around the start of 2088. I was flabbergasted that they only computerised everything then!!


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## 44brendan (24 Apr 2012)

> That was around the start of 2088.


Back to the Future! It probably will be 2088 before they get all cogs working together!


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## Leaky1 (24 Apr 2012)

44brendan said:


> Inference from this article was that error was related to the computer system. based on OP here and other posts, error was predominately human. It does'nt lend much to the credibility of Bank management!


 
I enquired about this with EBS in person after seeing this thread. I was planning on increasing my payments and was assured over the phone that it'd be a simple request to revert to normal payments if I chose in the future. Then I saw this thread so I asked the bank manager in person and they said I was correct to say they would request a SSF form from me if I wanted to revert to normal payment in future (but that'd it'd probably be approved as long as the 'new term length' it was within the original term of the loan).

So, now I'm pretty confused. Think I'll save my 'excess' payments separately for a while and just transfer lumpsums to the mortgage when it suits me.


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## 44brendan (24 Apr 2012)

This reaction from the Bank should not be accepted. It is your right to overpay the mortgage and revert to standard P&I repayments when you choose (in fact you would be entitled to a reduced level of repayments, as the capital balance of the mortgage would be at a lower level than it would be on original schedule).
Given the recent posting on bank clarification on error in including such requests under MARP you should revert to the BS. It is likely that their position has now changed.


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## Bronte (24 Apr 2012)

Leaky it is quite obvious that your manager is not on message with the new reality in Head office.  Have another meeting and bring along the Sunday Indpendant article and while in his office he can ring head office to confirm the new application of the rules.  

I guess banks are not too quick to explain this to their branches or if they even bother to do so.


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## aido71 (24 Apr 2012)

Hi all..... Great to see what a bit of publicity can do! Talk about a u-turn. Today started with me receiving my previous correspondence from the office re changes and it did indeed include letters stating new dates repayments etc. Branch manager  then rang me... She told me to drop in the formal letter requesting reversion to original dates. She would have ready the letter outlining the need for SFS etc and then I could proceed with letter to head office etc. lo and behold at 4.30 when I called in big smiles all sorted no problem! She 'claims' they were planning to fight my case to head office as I was their first for this (?!). Only then did I get to read indo article. I like to think by starting on here played some tiny part in getting EBS to get their act together. Thanks Brendan and all contributers who took the time to get involved in this.. Am happy camper. Now just have to decide what to spend extra cash on!!  Prob some more bills! Thanks all Aido


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## Bronte (25 Apr 2012)

aido71 said:


> . Now just have to decide what to spend extra cash on!!


 
Maybe a small donation to AAM.  Well done on getting a result that's good for you.


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## thedaras (25 Apr 2012)

I saw this about EBS and thought it would be of interest to you:



> A MORTGAGE lender has blamed an error in its systems for wrongly treating a number of customers as being in arrears.
> 
> The mortgage holders had been overpaying their home loans in a bid to speed up the payments and reduce the overall cost.
> 
> ...


http://www.independent.ie/business/...-told-their-mortgages-in-arrears-3089326.html


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## liamo69 (25 Apr 2012)

Aido

Thats great news.

It was only when i saw your post initially that i registered with askaboutmoney.

I think Brendan and Charlie Weston deserve a lot of thanks for the part they had in this. I think without their help there would have been no u-turn by the EBS.

Thanks all


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## airgead07 (28 Aug 2012)

Hi

I am considering starting an overpayment off the capital of my mortgage with EBS.

Does anyone have any advice as to the exact wording I should use in sending my written instruction to them?

Should I make reference to reverting to the original capital and interest payment amounts upon my writtten instruction?

Also should I request confirmation of this in writing from them?


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## aido71 (29 Aug 2012)

Hi well as I started all this I guess my advice would be to put in writing to EBS that you wish to increase your monthly repayments by €xxx.
Ask them to confirm what the 'new' term for mortgage completion is based on this increased payment. 
But above all make sure to request confirmation in writing that at any stage you may revert to original payment schedule as per loan agreement. This is the bit they tried to get me on. Firstly insisting I had changed loan agreement and then stating that sure I could revert to original schedule provided I completed an SFS form produced P60s payslips bank statements handed over one of my kidneys and both of my kids ( ok exaggerating a little for dramatic purposes but you get my drift!!!). The point is they never technically refused to permit me change back but tried to make it very difficult.
I would go so far as requesting from them in writing that you can change back simply by putting in in writing similar to the request to increase repayments.
Hope that helps!


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