# IFSC-type development outside Dublin?



## Dinky (15 Sep 2005)

Any thoughts on whether this might ever be a possibility?

Of course, Dublin *is* the centre of the universe , but what pros and cons can you see in possibly establishing a similar centre elsewhere in the country?


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## tiger (15 Sep 2005)

Hard to do something like this where there isn't already a critical mass.  The types of factors that would infulence companies would be:
- cost.  outside Dublin would be cheaper, but maybe not dramatically cheaper compared to say eastern Europe.
- infrastructure.  roads, air, communications etc.
- people.  probably most critical, are they going to be able to hire or relocate the people & skills they need in/to this area?


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## CCOVICH (15 Sep 2005)

They've tried to promote Navan as a centre for funds etc., but I don't think it's really taken off.

A few US fund managers/administrators have also set up shop in Kilkenny, but nothing major.

I think places like Drogheda, Dundalk or maybe even Carrickmacross could make sense, as with the M1, they are within an hour  or so of Dublin airport.

Navan and Kilkenny are a bit off the beaten track (at least until the M3 is finished).


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## Janet (15 Sep 2005)

What about Shannon?  There is something similar down there as far as I'm aware.


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## Semafi (15 Sep 2005)

I think alot of people working in the IFSC would love to move outside Dublin.
I have been working here for 6 years and would love to move West but jobs just aren't there!! I could do my job anywhere in Ireland and it would be cheaper outside Dublin - maybe galway!!


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## darag (15 Sep 2005)

Why would you want to do this?  The IFSC manages a lot of money but it's still a banking/financial minow in European terms.  London, Frankfurt, Zurich, Paris, etc., are the gorillas but there are probably twenty to fifty other centres bigger than the IFSC in the EU.  It still hasn't reached a critical mass in my opinion and opening a rival in Ireland would damage whatever chances it has.  Like lots of things in Ireland we'd end up with two (or more) half-arsed efforts instead of concentrating on trying to develop one world class facility.

One reason I've responded here is because this type of idea (that we should strive to spread things around) dominates thinking on development in Ireland to the detriment of the whole country.  It may have made some sort of sense when we all travelled around on donkeys and carts but with the improvements to road and rail, it makes less and less sense.

For example, every little market town in the country wants to have it's own third-level institution so we end up with almost 30 of them all of which are mediocre or worse.  Don't believe the hype that such and such RTC or university is "world class" - we have NO world class third level institutions in this country.  The best in the country - UCD and Trinity - didn't even make it into an EU top 100 - I think they barely scraped into the top 200; in world terms they aren't even on the radar.  If, instead of pandering to every local demand, the government had concentrated it's resources on two (or three) third-level institutions (say one in Dublin and one in Cork) for the whole country then we could have world class institutions.

Alternatively look at airports;  every county along the western seaboard has it's own airport most of which only barely survive because the government pays upto 200 euro per internal flight to/from these airports.  None have the potential to develop into a proper hub.  They should all be closed and the resources and efforts put into developing Shannon (for example) which would then have a chance of becoming a major international hub with the obvious benefits for everyone in terms of cheap flights and many more destinations.


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## CCOVICH (15 Sep 2005)

Darag-I'd agree with you on the InsIT/RTC issue.

One the issue of Dublin being a minnow, in banking and trading terms maybe, but I think that we're doing ok as far as fund administration is concerned, not very glamorous, but profitable nonetheless.  There are more and more 'traditional' and hedge funds setting up in Dublin and expanding all the time.  The key is to think of Ireland as a whole, not just Dublin.  I think that the country is small enough, and infrastructure is improving to the extent that it should be possible for companies invloved in financial services to locate outside Dublin without too much trouble.


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## CGorman (15 Sep 2005)

darag said:
			
		

> For example, every little market town in the country wants to have it's own third-level institution so we end up with almost 30 of them all of which are mediocre or worse.  Don't believe the hype that such and such RTC or university is "world class" - we have NO world class third level institutions in this country.  The best in the country - UCD and Trinity - didn't even make it into an EU top 100 - I think they barely scraped into the top 200; in world terms they aren't even on the radar.  If, instead of pandering to every local demand, the government had concentrated it's resources on two (or three) third-level institutions (say one in Dublin and one in Cork) for the whole country then we could have world class institutions.



There's an interesting piece about this sort of thing in this weeks _The Economist_ survey on Universities. One basic idea thrown up is that - due to the very recent democratisation of third level education (where the majority/the masses attend 3rd level) in Europe theres been an enormous strain on the system to expand to meet this new demand for places. This has not effected the US since third level education has been open to the masses for much longer.

This increase in numbers (over half of all Irish students now go to college) has resulted in a fall in overall standards as class size has expanded accross europe - only 2 EU universitys are in the top 20 universities globally. 

In Ireland a quick way to meet the new demand was to open many new IT's accross the country that offered a reasonable standard and focused on education, not research. This is in contrast to Europe were many existing colleges simply expanded more and more - for example the University of Rome now has over 250,000 students, UCD has about 20,000! Thats noting compared to the largest in Turkey... with 500,000 students!

You most remember how these league tables are created - a major variable is research - something that has little impact on the quality of education given to students. As Irish insitutions score relatively poorly on this aspect, their overall ranking is dragged down.

I would disagree with your attack on the system of having 30 or so institutes in Ireland (infact i'd like to see more opened!.. in Mullingar for starters ) but I do aggree we should also focus on building a few top class universities in our biggest urban center. I think we should build/reinforce the current two tier system - the ITs ensure good education to the masses and the universities produce the elite (in academic terms only) students needed to lead the economy forward in all areas.


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## RainyDay (15 Sep 2005)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> A few US fund managers/administrators have also set up shop in Kilkenny, but nothing major.


And [broken link removed] recently.


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## CCOVICH (15 Sep 2005)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> And [broken link removed] recently.



And I believe that PFPC also have an operation in Wexford as well as Abbey St.


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## Fintan (16 Sep 2005)

PFPC are also opening an office in Navan


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## Dinky (19 Sep 2005)

Realistically, how far up the list of priorities is physical infrastructure for financial services?  When the CSFI listed their top 6 attributes in determining the competitiveness of a financial centre back in 2003, for example, infrastructure didn't even make it onto the list.


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## CCOVICH (19 Sep 2005)

Dinky said:
			
		

> Realistically, how far up the list of priorities is physical infrastructure for financial services? When the CSFI listed their top 6 attributes in determining the competitiveness of a financial centre back in 2003, for example, infrastructure didn't even make it onto the list.


 
Their employees need to be able to get to work.
Clients/management from abroad need to be able to get to the office from an airport without too much hassle.

Infrastructure may have little or no bearing on competiveness vis a vis other locations, but good infrastructure is one determinant of where to site an office, so if links to major towns are improved, I believe that they become more attractive as an alternative to Dublin for financial services.


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## Dinky (19 Sep 2005)

Well, if you take somewhere like Cork, for example (harbour port, airport, substantial and skilled population, more affordable accommodation and rents, less traffic congestion than Dublin), it seems that all these obstacles are easily surmountable.  Infrastructure around Shannon is also improving, and it may well become a viable option in the very near future.


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## CCOVICH (19 Sep 2005)

Dinky said:
			
		

> Well, if you take somewhere like Cork, for example (harbour port, airport, substantial and skilled population, more affordable accommodation and rents, less traffic congestion than Dublin), it seems that all these obstacles are easily surmountable. Infrastructure around Shannon is also improving, and it may well become a viable option in the very near future.


 
I see you're located in Cork, so you may have a vested interest eh?  (Just kidding ).

Yeah, I don't see why Cork isn't a viable alternative, after all they have a university as well, and AFAIK, the airport is undergoing quite a bit of development as well, no?

If I'm not mistaken, Cork has the lion's share of Ireland's pharmaceutical industry, and so:

(a)  maybe it makes sense to concentrate on deveoping that industry (e.g. through forging strong links between the NUI and industry); or
(b)  seeking to diversify so the city is no longer dependent on pharmaceutical companies for employment/revenue.

One thing I would say about Cork is that it's quite remote and I think that many Oirish wouldn't be gone on the idea of locating there (I myself, being from Donegal originally wouldn't be keen unless they started a service from Cork airport to Carrickfinn), but that is something that could be changed in time I guess.

I think that the situation in the West is a little bit of a fudge.  Shannon is near to Limerick and Galway, and these two cities will always be competing for investment against Shannon in that neck of the woods (as will Ennis for that matter). Shannon should be further developed IMHO.  Once the N18 is dual carriageway, Shannon will be well within an hour of both Galway and Limerick and have it's own international airport (however small).


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## Dinky (19 Sep 2005)

> I see you're located in Cork, so you may have a vested interest eh? (Just kidding ).


 
Nope, kid away! I don't work in pharma or finance, so no vested interested, unfortunately.

I would agree with you on Shannon, and I can see it fighting its own corner and holding its own quite well in the future (...a bit like one of those made-for-tv movies where the poor but gutsy kid rises from the ranks to the sound of swelling violins  )


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