# powers of security personnel



## Jane Doe (22 Oct 2008)

I was coming out of a shop and saw a woman, whose bag had beeped the door scanner,  having her bag searched by a security person

Just wondered can they do that? What if she had nothing stolen? 

Also what is the situation if an alarm is set off but you have nothing stolen? Are you obliged to stop


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## GOBSTOPPER (22 Oct 2008)

Sorry for hijacking your post but I also wondered if you ask/tell a person (Roma beggar) to leave your restaurant for begging and hassling customers and they ignore you and continue ,do you have a right to physically remove them ? or do you have to call the guards. I know bouncers regularly throw out people from pubs but always wondered about the legality of the physical removal aspect. Any legal eagles know the law on this thanks.


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## colm (22 Oct 2008)

To the first question No you are not oblidged to stop & no they do not have the right to search you without a guard present.


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## Jane Doe (22 Oct 2008)

Thanks for reply





colm said:


> To the first question No you are not oblidged to stop & no they do not have the right to search you without a guard present.


Do you have any more info. My attitude would be not to stop since i do not steal. If they followed me i would tell them i would call the garda if they held me against my will and I would not be searched unless/until a garda was present

Would I be right - legally - in this.


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## colm (22 Oct 2008)

Yes


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## Jane Doe (22 Oct 2008)

colm said:


> Yes


Thanks Colm. No offence but are you a legal person? I need to be sure before i would call the cops!


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## colm (22 Oct 2008)

No but I have discussed this before with a professional


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## Caveat (22 Oct 2008)

colm said:


> No but I have discussed this before with a professional


 
A professional shoplifter? 

They'd know alright.


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## McCrack (22 Oct 2008)

The situation with regards to retail officers and indeed any security officer is that they possess no more powers above a private person (you and I for example)

Under the Criminal Law Act 1997 any person (that's you, me or a security officer) can arrest any person who commits an 'arrestable offence'. Theft (shoplifting) is an arrestable offence. Once a person is arrested they must be handed over to a member of the Garda as soon as practicable.
Thats the legislation.

Now a private person has no right at all to search another under any circumstance unless that person gives his/her consent. This would apply in the scenario you describe (I presume the officer asked the lady for her consent to search her/look in her bag).


Now obviously there isnt enough facts, it might be possible the lady in question is a known 'lifter' and she was observed concealing items by the security officer and he/she arrested her outside the shop and asked her permission to search her bag? I dont know enough to comment but essentially a security officer is on dodgy ground if he/she stops a person outside a shop and that person in fact has no stolen property on them. False imprisonment, defamation, assault springs to mind.

O and to answer your other Q re the tagging alarm going off, no you are not obliged to stop if you dont want to.


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## Jane Doe (22 Oct 2008)

colm said:


> No but I have discussed this before with a professional


 OK thanks


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## Jane Doe (22 Oct 2008)

Caveat said:


> A professional shoplifter?
> 
> They'd know alright.


lol


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## Jane Doe (22 Oct 2008)

Hi, thanks for your input





McCrack said:


> The situation with regards to retail officers and indeed any security officer is that they possess no more powers above a private person (you and I for example)


 I was aware of that


> Under the Criminal Law Act 1997 any person (that's you, me or a security officer) can arrest any person who commits an 'arrestable offence'. Theft (shoplifting) is an arrestable offence. Once a person is arrested they must be handed over to a member of the Garda as soon as practicable.
> Thats the legislation.


Knew that also but I once heard you could be on shaky ground making a citizens arrest, I cannot recall why, not knowing all the circumstances or not having power of a garda


> Now a private person has no right at all to search another under any circumstance unless that person gives his/her consent. This would apply in the scenario you describe


This is what I was not sure of



> (I presume the officer asked the lady for her consent to search her/look in her bag).


 I don't know because I did not see the incident begin. *When I wrote in the first post that she had beeped the beeper I was assumimg she had as she was being searched*




> Now obviously there isnt enough facts, it might be possible the lady in question is a known 'lifter' and she was observed concealing items by the security officer and he/she arrested her outside the shop and asked her permission to search her bag?


 could be




> O and to answer your other Q re the tagging alarm going off, no you are not obliged to stop if you dont want to.


I thought that but was not sure. I often am amazed that people just do stop apparently without thinking. I have no sympathy for lifters if the lady today was but people can be blamed in wrong. I was once accused and the security guy demanded i empty my pockets. I told him to call the garda and i would empty them in the presence of the garda. So I often meant to look into the situation re the beeper and the search and seeing that today reminded me. I was almost sure since my offer to empty my pockets in the presence of a garda was declined!
Thanks everyone


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## shesells (23 Oct 2008)

Is an alarm going off in a shop when you exit potential grounds for taking a slander case? It is potentially falsely accusing you of having stolen items in your possession in a public place where other people can witness it.


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## bond-007 (24 Oct 2008)

It could well be. The consensus is not to stop if the thing beeps.

Also if a person makes a citizens arrest and it turns out that they did not steal the person making the arrest could be sued for false imprisonment.


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## McCrack (24 Oct 2008)

shesells said:


> Is an alarm going off in a shop when you exit potential grounds for taking a slander case? It is potentially falsely accusing you of having stolen items in your possession in a public place where other people can witness it.


 
No grounds would exist in these circumstances, slander is the spoken form of defamation for starters, secondly to succeed a plaintiff must show actual damage to their reputation. (There are exceptions to having to prove actual damage but it doesnt apply to these circumstances)


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## gillarosa (24 Oct 2008)

If the beeper goes off while a person leaves a store who has not already been seen by Security stealing within the shop the approach of the Staff / Security to the person is generally along the lines of "oh, the tag may not have been removed properly, can I have a look and we'll take care of it now" its rarely antagonistic and therefore I can't imagine the shopper in question would have had a problem, after all who wants to arrive home with a lump of plastic attached to your purchase?


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## colm (24 Oct 2008)

I would have a problem been seen outside a shop with a security guard emptying out my bags. Asking you to return is also unacceptable, you have to walk back trough the shop with a security guard & everyone looking....


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## bond-007 (24 Oct 2008)

That in itself would be seem as damaging a persons reputation, especially if you are seen by people that know you.


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## colm (24 Oct 2008)

From a technical point of view their tagging systems should be in perfect working order . If that is faulty or a member of staff forgets to remove a tag then they are negligent.


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## McCrack (24 Oct 2008)

bond-007 said:


> That in itself would be seem as damaging a persons reputation, especially if you are seen by people that know you.


 
It's not. Defamation is written (libel) or spoken (slander) words not an embarassing circumstance such as a alarm tagger going off exiting a shop. Regardless of how anybody thinks, a circumtance cannot amount to defamation, there must be communication of some form that is damaging to a person's reputation heard/overheard by a third party for any defamation to be actionable.


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## bond-007 (24 Oct 2008)

So if the security goon said "Come back here you thief!" and my neighbour hear it, that would be slander?


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## McCrack (24 Oct 2008)

If it were untrue yes it would be defamatory (slander).


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## colm (24 Oct 2008)

But searching your bags or marching you back trough the shop has to be an infringement of your rights


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## bond-007 (24 Oct 2008)

You are free not to comply with their request and keep walking/running away.


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## colm (24 Oct 2008)

I was posting in relation to this post 





gillarosa said:


> If the beeper goes off while a person leaves a store who has not already been seen by Security stealing within the shop the approach of the Staff / Security to the person is generally along the lines of "oh, the tag may not have been removed properly, can I have a look and we'll take care of it now" its rarely antagonistic and therefore I can't imagine the shopper in question would have had a problem, after all who wants to arrive home with a lump of plastic attached to your purchase?


 
Regardless of the manner in which they ask you to return it is still an unnecessary embarressment to you.


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## Jane Doe (26 Oct 2008)

bond-007 said:


> if a person makes a citizens arrest and it turns out that they did not steal the person making the arrest could be sued for false imprisonment.


That is what I meant by citizens arrest is or can be shaky


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