# Rural Fingal Pre Planning "A2" house & SIP (structurally insulated panel) builds



## fairygirl (13 Mar 2011)

Hi all

This is my first time posting on the site - so hopefully I don't do anything wrong!!

Anyway - a bit of info - myself and my partner are applying for planning permission in Rural Fingal. We have plans done (by an architect) and are due to have a pre-planning meeting in the next month (we need to get relevant documentation together re eligibility/ working farm proof etc)

The house will be 290sqm - and a one a half storey build (we won't be allowed go for a two storey due to other houses on the road and planning restrictions).

We currently intend to go the direct labour route (but will put the build out to tender once a good specification sheet is drawn up so as we can compare quotes and see if it's worth our while taking on all the hassles and responsibilities that go with direct labour.)

My initial plan was to go with a block build on the flat and externally insulate with 200mm of EPS (from foundation level to roof in order to minimise cold bridges etc). We plan to do a strip foundation (the land is essentially a green field site of 1 acre and it is flat with no drainage issues in the surrounding area).

However - and here's where the title of the post comes into play!! I'm now considering a SIP build (there's a company in Galway called SIP Energy and also the TEK system by Kingspan). I like the fact that it's quick, that the insulation is done to a very high standard due to the fact that it's put in in factory conditions rather than a prospective self-builder standing over brickies checking that there's no mortar snots on wall ties and that insulation is fitted correctly and that the insulation specified is in fact what is being used etc etc.

I'm looking to get info on anyone who has built this way? What are the questions I should be asking? What approximate percentage of the build should I be looking at for the structure to be erected (if we have a budget of 1000 euro a sqm)? Advantages/disadvantages?

I probably should mention we want an A2 rated house with uvalues of around .16 for walls and roof and .14 for floors. We will be using UFH throughout and are almost sold on geothermal (nibe 1145) to work this. Easyscreed of 35m for first floor, airtightness to come in at 1 pa/h. MHRV installed. Still unsure on the need for solar panels for DHW (can you see all the questions that I'm going to be asking on this site!!!!).

Cripes - I typed more than I planned to!! Anyway - any and all advice would be really appreciated - I think ye're all super smart (from reading the posts here regularly!!) and would value your opinions xx


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## ajapale (13 Mar 2011)

What does SIP stand for?


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## fairygirl (13 Mar 2011)

It's structurally insulated panels or SIF is structurally insulated frames. There's a bit on them on American sites under these two anagrams (SIP/SIF) and it's the same as a TEK system by Kingspan - from the information I've read.

I think it's something along the lines of a closed-panel wood frame structure (with OSB boards)


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## ajapale (13 Mar 2011)

Thanks! Ive expanded your title to reflect this.


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## onq (13 Mar 2011)

Designing an A2 house is not a shopping expedition of parts.
If you're spending nearly €100 per sqft you should get professional advice.
As much depends on the execution as the specification and you have several issues.
The least of these is the reliance on UFH, which is very slow to respond to climatic changes.
I would also be concerned about new-build methods not widely known in Ireland - we have an unique climate.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon             as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal     action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in             Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the     matters    at      hand.


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## ajapale (13 Mar 2011)

Whats an "A2" house?


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## fairygirl (13 Mar 2011)

An A2 house is a house that achieves an A2 in it's BER rating.

Re underfloor heating - response time is not why people put it in (and not to be funny, but I've read so many of your posts ONQ and you know this!). Not only does it negate having radiators taking up space on walls etc, the heat from ufh is a different kind of heat then you get from a radiator or a fire for that matter. The ufh has individual thermostats in each room and hence you keep your house at a comfortable temperature for you.

Regarding expert advice - my architect has said that she is in interested in looking at this type of build, but that she has personally not been involved in a SIP build so she is talking to friends in the next week and I'm researching as much as I can too (hence putting the question up here to get people's experience/thoughts)

Re the "shopping expedition of parts" comment - I'm not 100% sure what you mean.... The house is designed to maximise solar gain, there are two small windows on the north side of the house for example. We plan to put in triple glazed windows - we have sliding doors to the south side of the house and these will have to be be double glazed due to the weight of them. I listed the uvalues and airtightness levels in my first post. Surely it's possible to design an A2 house and to list what criteria we are using in order to achieve it?

I agree entirely about the point that "as much depends on the execution as the specification". This is what attracted me to the SIP/SIF panel structure in the first place. But as was said - it seems not to be widely used in this country (Austria/Germany/Scandanavia/Canada/USA, but I haven't met anyone in Ireland that has gone this route, and I put the question out there to see if anyone has, or, just as importantly, anyone who researched it and decided not to go for it!

TIA


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## onq (14 Mar 2011)

Allow me to clarify Fairygirl.

I have no axe to grind with or for any of these methods or people discussed below and the opinions offered as always are my own, but these are my opinions in this regard.
Regardless of what system you choose there are some basic do's and don't.

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UFH does not seem to sufficiently responsive to provide comfortable level of heat - by itself - in our variable climate.
This is because in general it is installed under timber floors - timber being an  insulant - and not under tiled floors [for child safety re falls perhaps] and there is a thermal inertia in the  system which usually means it "runs hot"
People who claim to know - both house owners and professionals to whom I have spoken - suggest UFH needs to be set at the lower level of comfort and radiators or other local space heaters used for warm up as required with sudden cold snaps.
I have also heard it said that the pump for such systems needs to run constantly and that it should be undersized to allow it to run efficiently at capacity.

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Assembling a kit of parts will not guarantee an A2-rated house.
SIPS is presented as a technically brilliant sandwich of elements but think about this - every hole, every joint compromises the ideal, unless the perfection is continued.
If you're going to move from traditional build to a specialist building systems you'll need someone very experienced at installing this system to carry out the work and offer certification.
You should also satisfy yourself that the system will not develop problems in whatever term the longest and/or most exposed house built using this system has been erected for by visiting the premises and talking to people who use the system.

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Certain groupings of technologies will achieve this or greater, but these are technologies that are known to work together - eg the Passivehaus system.
The Passivhaus system raises different concerns, such as building off insulation and the effects on health of super-sealing and reliance on changing filters to achieve good air quality - these may also be of concern to you, depending on your specification.
However, if I was seriously thinking of this kind of performance I would be looking at passive house construction, not a factory production method, unless it produced the whole building as a fait accompli and I had costings to inform my choice.
This is because site assembly inevitably compromises factory production - this is why traditional methods have so many failsafes included in terms of the built work regarding timing and drying out of materials etc. - they allow for known flaws bring introduced and work around them.

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In particular, I am not convinced by the long term performance of some of the joints and element overlap conditions when it comes to interstitial condensation in SIPS - based projects.

I don't have a particular axe to grind with the system, that's just my tuppence worth.
When you look at the sections and you see large highly insulated plates of material being butt jointed and lap jointed you naturally wonder will there be failure or leakage at the joints.
When you look at sheets of perfection, the points of change - opes, angles, joints - these seem to be the weak points - in principle.
Structural expansion and contraction will tend to open up large joints like that.
Or will they just use a giant internal film to seal the house construction - and what happens when someone puts a nail through one of the walls?
There are other systems out there which have service voids and even entire secondary layers inboard of the sealing membrane to avoid such problems with penetrations and services.
Regardless of this, you need someone competent to achieve it in terms of the both the design and the execution.
Even with a competent architect reviewing and researching the materials and technologies being used and satisfying himself that the detailing will hold up at corners, thresholds and opes, you cannot use just anyone as the contractor.
At the least, he will need to be experienced and if possible factory or manufacturer certified.

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There is some feedback on the profession that people who "claim" to have achieved more that A3 may not actually attain this level of performance over time, due to thermal looping, poor placement of elements, sealing elements, materials being compromised by moisture build up, etc.
On the face of it SIPS may address these problems, but every system has its own crosses to bear - SIPS' problem is that as far as I know it is not widely used in the building industry and therefore there may be a lack of feedback over time available.
We need independent testing over time on which to base competent professional assessment whereas what we seem to see are reports of brilliance being promulgated in trade or special interest magazines - about the same people who take out advertisements in those publications!

That's not competent independent, empirical, professional review - that's marketing!

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For all that I am wary of the "sell" on sustainable building and retrofitting, Construct Ireland and Jeff Colley are publishing what seem to be empirical tests and external insulation seems to be holding up quite well to the investigations so far.
This of course is a bolster to the retrofitting industry but the results are there and the retrofitting technologies are easier to replace or repair if faults develop, since by definition most of the are not integral to the structure, apart from the cavity bead installation.

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As a cautionery note, no-one has tested the performacne of a highly insulated house using petroleum based insulation products or rockwool, timber frame or traditional, in a fire situation, that I am aware of.
I think the building control officers, fire officers and others are holding back from commenting for whatever reason and I think we ignore the issue of fire propagation ansafety at our peril.
For example, three private houses I designed and saw erected have concrete slab or steel and concrete slab upper floors and 225mm concrete block inner leaves and partitions.
While these have been built over the past twenty years or so, the last one acheived an A3 rating.
Thermal mass and sound insulation as standard.

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I have written about these technologies over the past two years in response to public interest.
If you search through the posts on AAM you may find one or two people  with experience of this system and you should contact them.
Everyone like new technologies, but building professionals tend to prefer tried and tested, which for us means a twenty [yes, 20!] year review period in the climate and location of choice.

FWIW

ONQ.

 [broken link removed]

 All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon              as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal      action    be      taken.
 Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in              Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the      matters    at      hand.


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## fairygirl (14 Mar 2011)

@ ONQ - And your last post is the reason that you're my favourite person to read on this site!!

Everything you've written makes perfect sense - and you've laid it out really clearly as well. I've read some of the articles in Construct Ireland re EWI which was one of the reasons I was leaning towards it in the first place.

Re UFH and wood floors - I've heard that and we were planning on laying tiles throughout the downstairs with engineered boards in the bedrooms (with 35mm of easy screed to ensure a faster response time) Agreed on the sizing of heat pumps - we have been quoted for 12kw and 14kw heat pumps for a 290sqm house. We'll be going with an 8kw pump (if geothermal is the heat source we definitely go for) I also plan to have a wood burning stove downstairs for the quick heat factor.

Thanks a million for taking the time to answer ONQ - your post is super informative and I'll be taking your comments on board.


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## Patrick2008 (14 Mar 2011)

As always,as a construction industry professional (Chartered Quantity Surveyor) I have to agree with ONQ. 

Ireland is saturated at the moment with many green technologies being promoted by both established and newly established companies. I am currently in the process of building a house and I like to use the motto of Canada "Build right, build airtight". No matter what route you go I suggest you employ the services of an Architect, Engineer and even an airtight specialist. Dont be fooled when people tell you one system is better than another. Every system has its pitfalls whether it is traditional block, timber frame, SIP etc. 

The basic principles of building a house are still the same. You only have to look at a cottage that was built in Ireland 200+ years ago. Our ancestors were very conscious of solar gain, narrow plan etc when they designed their houses. Remember Ireland is one hell of a damp country and just because a particular system works in Germany or Sweden does not mean it will work here. 

My only advice is think about what you want to get from your house. Many people get bogged down on energy rating, u values, carbon footprint etc but in my opinion the most important things to consider when building a house are:

(1) House size to cater for current and future needs: You say your house is 290m2. That is a big house considering the average detached country house should be circa 150m2. Do you really need a house of ths size. Do you really need the playroom, office, good sitting room, lounge, 4 en suites etc etc. I presume there are only 2 of you planning to live in the house for now. When kids come and go it will be back to the two of you. Remember, you will only be in the house 50 years and trends come and go. 

(2) Capital Costs: If you are still decided on a 290m2 (3,120 sq.ft) house then your construction costs will be approx €300k-380k at the low end. Budget for €90-120/sq.ft excluding VAT. If you decide to embrace all the gadgets out there then you could easily add 20% to this. I know people say construction costs are coming down but this is only partially true. Labour costs are coming down but be very careful in chhosing your trades if you go the self build route. Material prices such as timber, insulation, plasterboard, copper, lead, aluminium are all going up. 

(3) Running costs: If you decide to stay with the 290m2 house then your running costs will be higher than a 150m2 house. Obviously, if your house is well designed, airtight etc then the house will run more efficiently. However, a house needs to be maintained over its life cycle and the bigger the house the more maintenance required. Ditto for running costs such as fuel bills, replacing windows etc. Fuel prices are not coming down. If you decide to use all the technology available to you then there will be maintenance costs associated with these. e.g filters for HRV units.

Personally I'd rather keep things simple when building a house. Cavity wall is tried and tested. Get a good blocklayer and make sure and eliminate Thermal looping. Eliminate cold bridging. This is an issue no matter what building route you choose. Use double glazed windows. Dont waste money on triple glazed windows if your house is orientated correctly. Spend money on insulation and keeping the house airtight. Make sure and install a HRV system. If you want to spend money then spend it on the quality of the finishes and get good trades people on board. Employ the services of a good Architect and if he is not up to speed on airtightness then employ somebody who is. 

Maybe you have a genuine requirement fo a 290m2 house but if not, then I suggest you make a new planning application for a change of house type. You will make massive saving both on capital and running costs and you will reduce your carbon footprint!!!!


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## fairygirl (14 Mar 2011)

Hi Patrick

There's currently four of us with plans for one more. The house has four bedrooms, no good rooms, but does have a playroom (which can be opened up into the sitting room or closed off!)

The reason we didn't go for a cavity build was due to my architect - she said that there are companies all over Europe set up that specialise in removing insulation from cavity block walls.

Filters for HRV units (the ones that are pollen filters as well) retail at just over50 euro for our size house and need to be changed on an annual basis.

How did you come to the conclusion that the average sized detatched country house should be 150sqm? My house (close to city centre) is 135sqm and is tiny for the family - now granted, it's all about the use of space, but to be honest with you, I've never been in a detatched house in the country that was smaller that 200sqm! I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way - I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm genuinely interested in how you came to this conclusion.

Eliminating cold bridging on a cavity build is much harder than using EWI and building on the flat - that's the professional advice we've been given. Is this wrong?

Thanks again for taking the time to reply - sorry about all the additional questions!


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## onq (15 Mar 2011)

Thanks Fairygirl and Patrick2008 for your welcome comments.

Fairygirl, please don't apologise.
Questions are what this site thrives on, and a set of good questions can turn a thread into a Key Post or generate a FAQ.

Your expectation of space is what drives your build and your  expectations are in the medium range to high for a family of two parents  and three kids.
A 4 bed 1,500-2,000 square feet house is big enough for three kids with a  guest bedroom, with one upstairs bathroom, downstairs loo, utility,  living room and kitchen dining - no separate playroom.

I can see where en-suite rooms, dressing rooms, playroom etc. would push  you over the 2,000 limit and indeed many posters to AAM appear to be building in the area   range you specify.
I think there is an underlying feeling that they will build a house like  this once, and they'll future proof it for when their kids are growing  up so the playroom becomes the kids TV room and later it'll become a  study.

Your filter requirement seems way low on what was advised at Plan Expo  2009 when they spoke of once-a-month changes - I found this excessive,  but I could see once-a-quarter [3 months] being reasonable for a  well-used house.
That's still a lot of maintainance [€200 per annum at your prices]  especially if it is in an inaccessible location in the roofspace.

Personally I don't have a lot of time for sealing buildings - I'm a traditionalist I suppose.
I don't have a lot of time for having the heating on all the time either - it tends to dry out the air.
On a damp day like today I'll open the windows for 30 minutes to an  hour, but yesterday they were open all afternoon.
It was a lovely mild  day and if I feel a bit cold later this morning I'll put on the fleece jacket and go for a walk - it toughens  you up and keeps you fit!
We've found that a traditional and uninsulated house of less than 2,000  square feet can cost €800-€1,000 to heat per annum if you use your heat  sources wisely.

When the economy resurges again I will probably invest in some form of  EWI to reduce our heating bills still further and help preserve the  structure.
I may invest on a chimney sealer also but we like our open coal fires in  the winter - again that's probably my traditional upbringing.

November winds howling outside, the family gathered around the fireplace, looking  for blue flames when its cold and watching the fairylights burn slowly  up the fireback - bliss.

ONQ.

  [broken link removed]

  All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied  upon              as a defence or support - in and of itself - should  legal      action    be      taken.
  Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the       matters    at      hand.


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## Patrick2008 (15 Mar 2011)

Hi Fairygirl. I think ONQ has answered your question in relation to house size. 

I hear what you are saying ONQ in terms of airtightness etc. Also, I am a bit nervous about sealing a building and relying on HRV for air cicrulation etc and having the HRV running all year. So are you saying you favour building cavity wall masonry construction, using duble glazing, scratch coating the interal face of the external walls, insulating the house fairly well and leaving it at that? Ventilation will come inthe form of wall vents, opening windows etc? I'd love to hear your views as I am planning to start a new build in a few weeks.


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## fairygirl (15 Mar 2011)

It's fantastic information - and great to hear different views.

I've a partner who'd like to live in your house ONQ with the windows wide open at every available opportunity!! (Mind you, I'd like to live in your house for the fire-side evenings - it sounds like a little bit of heaven the way you describe it!!)

I can't see a way of putting up my house plans to see if we've missed something (even if you'll both give out about the size of things  )

We're a couple of months behind you Patrick2008 - the joys of pre-planning and looking to build in Rural Fingal!! Cheeky question (and feel free to ignore if it's none of my business!!!) but are you going to build using a contractor or are you going the direct labour route (I see from your previous post that your a QS, so I'd be interested to see what you'd do).

It is, apart from the birth of my two fairies, the most exciting time in my life - I'm dreaming of houses at this stage. So many people never get the opportunity to actually design their forever house - we are very very lucky to have the opportunity (now I hope we don't manage to feck it up!!)


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## onq (16 Mar 2011)

Patrick2008 said:


> Hi Fairygirl. I think ONQ has answered your question in relation to house size.
> 
> I hear what you are saying ONQ in terms of airtightness etc. Also, I am a bit nervous about sealing a building and relying on HRV for air cicrulation etc and having the HRV running all year. So are you saying you favour building cavity wall masonry construction, using duble glazing, scratch coating the interal face of the external walls, insulating the house fairly well and leaving it at that? Ventilation will come inthe form of wall vents, opening windows etc? I'd love to hear your views as I am planning to start a new build in a few weeks.




I think one has to commit one way to the other, Patrick, but you need common sense as well - and apart from good insulation, and a semi passive MVHR I'm not convinced we should do a lot more.
I am very concerned about what I see as a potentially substandard quality of life for people in highly sealed new builds, or unrealistic expectations of what savings you can achieve.
I am particularly worried about the importation of builidng, heating and venting systems from drier, colder countries and the problems they may deveolop here in our damp climate.

For example I have two clients who are interested in building in Donegal, but who, despite me having their confidence as someone whose opinions are well-founded are absolutely opposed to building in timber.
I have spoken to a building control officer who referred to timber frame buildings as sixty year entities - when I dug deeper I found that this is the minimum lifespan term, but still - it makes you think.

No-one would consider a block-built house as needing qualification like that - my own house was built in the early 'Sixties and looks like it will continue for a multiple of sixty years - touch wood!
Don't get me wrong - I appreciate the need to minimise our carbon footprint as well as the next man, but consider there are many ways to achieve this.

For example, a couple - if they are Uber-Green - who are building their 3,500 sq.ft new build such as Fairygirls will chose materials so as to minimise their cradle to cradle carbon footprint.
They will be considering sourcing home grown, processed and transported timbers, and other building products to reduce even their carbon footprint deriving from transportation!

But consider this.

They are building a new house on virgin soil somewhere in the countryside.
Granted it will be very efficient in terms of carbon consumed to produce its materials and trasport them and perhaps even to put them together.

But consider this beside my own family's life choices.

We chose an existing house, served by exising services, close to existing amenities, which has one previous owner since new AFAIK - thus, there was no build cost/carbon footprint.
We are within walking distances of shops and only two miles away from the school, so when our family are older they will be cycling to school.
Our weekly shop is a drive in, but occassional shopping isn't.

I work from home, avoiding both rush hour stress and hugely reducing our carbon footprint in terms of commuting.
[I used to commute to Baggot Street from near Newtownmountkennedy in Wicklow]
Our heating regime I have already described.

I haven't done the figures but I would hazard a guess that if you took all our carbon footprint costs, between -


lifestyle
commuting, and
house
 - we would have a smaller carbon footprint over say 50 years than someone living in a timber new build [even our first house was pre-owned].
Add to that intermittent heating and not using a dishwasher [I do the washing up], and you can dramatically cut your costs/ erengy use / carbon footprint.

I think we've just come through a terrible period of Green-inspired moralising without a lot of common sense being used.
You don't have to rely on space age sealing or cradle to cradle vetting of products to lower your carbon use.
Reduce, re-use, recycle starts with your place of work, your house and your lifestyle.
Our parents knew these things in their bones - they were reared like that.

The [broken link removed] is a good place to start learning.

Hope this helps.



FWIW

ONQ.

  [broken link removed]

  All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied   upon              as a defence or support - in and of itself - should   legal      action    be      taken.
  Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise  in               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on  the       matters    at      hand.


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## Troy McClure (27 Mar 2011)

I will say one thing. Everyone, without exception, I know who built a house of this size regretted doing so afterwards due the the upkeep and cleaning of it alone.

People who live in house's they find too small, always seem to over shoot on the size of the house they go on to build, as a consequence. 2500sq/ft is more than ample and will save you money in every direction. Also will you architect sign off/insure for drawdown if your going direct labour? mine wont!


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## onq (27 Mar 2011)

@ Troy McClure,

I here what you're saying Troy in relation to sizing - some people go a  little mad on sizing and circa 2,500sqft should give plenty of room plus  en-suites for every room if required.

You'd wonder are people getting led and said by the 16  year old "cribs"  that are being shown on Sky TV where there's a basketball court in the  basement (!) and every outside pool looks like its been knocked off the  same catalogue in "Natural Stone" surround.

Regarding your architect's concerns, I would also echo them if only  because many self-builders are usually not competent to discharge the  duties of the Main Contractor which they must assume under the safety  health and welfare regulations.

Most of them don't know how to organize a site, arrange for attendances  on tradesmen, aren't there to receive deliveries and check goods  delivered properly, store them in a way that minimises the effects of  the weather and protect them from site traffic and rough handling.

But the real issue is that they have no knowledge or project management or detailing sufficient to spot and stop sharp practice

FWIW

ONQ.

  [broken link removed]

  All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied     upon              as a defence or support - in and of itself - should     legal      action    be      taken.
  Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise    in               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on    the       matters    at      hand.


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## Patrick2008 (28 Mar 2011)

Hi Fairygirl. I am going down the self build route but only because I work for a Property Developer and I will use the subcontractors we use as I trust them and I know the quality of their work etc. Even though I am a Chartered Quantity Surveyor I am still employing an Architect and an air tight specialist. I work in construction and I still find self build daunting as I still have to hold down my day job. However, if you employ a suitably qualified and experienced construction professional then you should be okay. 

I hear what yu are saying ONQ. As I have said before I am bombarded on a reqular basis from sales reps and companies trying to sell us new green gadgets. In my own case I considered timber frame but I decided it was not for me. In the end I went for traditional block with cavity insulation, scratchcoat internal face of external walls and insulated plasterboard. The house will have loads of insulation, solar panels and a HRV system. I am currently looking at the Aereco demand controlled mechancial system. 

I have no problem with an air tight house as you can aways open a window but I am a bit nervous about which HRV system to use in terms of reliability, maintenance etc.


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