# Knowledge Economy



## Birroc (11 Feb 2011)

I have just learned of a no-go decision by a mobile applications company that was looking to set up in Ireland. At least 40 software jobs were expected. The reason they gave what that we didn't have enough IT resources. Existing IT companies are crying out for good resources (e.g. HP, Avaya). Foreign ICT companies are becoming aware that we have a poor Maths standard and that we are producing low numbers of IT graduates.

So where is the planning/action for this Knowledge Economy? Yesterday all the Education talk among politicians is whether to keep Irish compulsory or not. Its a no-brainer in my mind! People need to wake up to the amount of time and money wasted on Irish. Make computer science compulsory would be more like it. I am sure our kids will thank us for the Irish language when they are forced to emigrate.


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## Sue Ellen (11 Feb 2011)

Totally agree with you.


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## pinkyBear (11 Feb 2011)

birroc said:


> make computer science compulsory would be more like it. I am sure our kids will thank us for the irish language when they are forced to emigrate.


 +1..


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## DerKaiser (11 Feb 2011)

No point in banging on about Irish (you could argue History holds back maths also), if we reduced the leaving cert to a max of 5 or 6 subjects, without the need for anything other than Maths and English to be compulsory we might make progress.

All 3rd level institutions should reintroduce bonus points for honours maths, and the curriculums need to be updated.

With fewer subjects there could be more maths classes and greater streaming i.e. Higher level reverts back to a similar level of difficulty as the 80s/90s, Advanced could be similar to the current higher level curriculum and Ordinary could stay the same


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## Sunny (11 Feb 2011)

A lot of kids will hate computer sciences as much as Irish if you make it compulsory. The only subjects that should be compulsory are Maths and English. When construction was booming and we had to import workers, why didn't we make bricklaying compulsory?


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## Sunny (11 Feb 2011)

DerKaiser said:


> No point in banging on about Irish (you could argue History holds back maths also), if we reduced the leaving cert to a max of 5 or 6 subjects, without the need for anything other than Maths and English to be compulsory we might make progress.


 
I fully agree with that. People leaving second level should have a strong basic grasp of a few things that interest them rather than a weak but vast knowledge of stuff that doesn't.


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## redbhoy (11 Feb 2011)

Irish isnt the problem. The education system is. What use do we have for History and Geography in most cases??
Personally I think Olivia O Learys idea of having a year where kids learn Philosophy would suit us better. Create thinkers instead of worker drones!!


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## Purple (11 Feb 2011)

My company will expand by between 30 and 50% this year. Our biggest problem is finding skilled manual workers. It's the same problem we've had for the last 10 years.


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## redbhoy (11 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> My company will expand by between 30 and 50% this year. Our biggest problem is finding skilled manual workers. It's the same problem we've had for the last 10 years.


 
Whats a skilled manual worker Purple? Someone with a trade?


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## Purple (11 Feb 2011)

redbhoy said:


> Whats a skilled manual worker Purple? Someone with a trade?



Experienced precision machinists with good computer and CAD skills.
I don't care if they have a trade as a FAS qualification isn't worth the paper it's written on.


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## MrEBear (11 Feb 2011)

While I agree that Irish should not be a compulsory subject, I would hate to see our national language die out completely. Maybe it could be an optional class like French, I do need to note that I have very poor Irish speaking skills and almost no written skill, but I have family in Galway whose fist language is Irish and speak English very rarely. The only good that can be taken from removing Irish is more time for other more important subjects (maths mainly IMO) butfor what little Irish I have I'd still like for my children to be able to learn it even if it was just by choice. 

Just my opinion. Bear


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## redbhoy (11 Feb 2011)

_Last edited by MrEBear; Today at 02:23 PM. Reason: My English is broken!!! _

Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná bearla cliste


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## Birroc (11 Feb 2011)

redbhoy said:


> Irish isnt the problem. The education system is. What use do we have for History and Geography in most cases??



History and Geography are not compulsory to Leaving Cert!
If people want to study Irish until LC, so be it but don't force it on everyone.


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## redbhoy (11 Feb 2011)

Birroc said:


> History and Geography are not compulsory to Leaving Cert!
> If people want to study Irish until LC, so be it but don't force it on everyone.


 
Well then make all subjects non-compulsory after the Junior Cert.


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## Firefly (11 Feb 2011)

What if Irish was only taught from 1st year like French and German, as a compulsory subject for the Junior Cert? I think if it followed the same curriculum style as French and German, most people would have a better level of Irish in this way.


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## redbhoy (11 Feb 2011)

Follow Maria Montessori's way and get them while they're young. The younger they learn languages the better.


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## Firefly (11 Feb 2011)

Back on topic, I think computers science should at least be an optional subject in school. There is a lot than can be covered without requiring the latest and greatest technology to be actually present in the schools themselves. Theory such as database design fundamentals, server / disk laouts, security principles. A lot of technologies are moving into the Cloud and virtual servers so this could offer potential to the Dept of Education for hosting classes / environments for students to work on. No reason why a PC from a classroom couldn't connect to a remote server to facilitate a programming project etc.


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## orka (11 Feb 2011)

redbhoy said:


> Follow Maria Montessori's way and get them while they're young. The younger they learn languages the better.


It's not just starting young - the method has to be appropriate too. I did 14 years of Irish and 6 years of French and German - you could drop me into deepest France or Germany and I'd be grand - well able to converse and survive with the language even 20+ years after leaving school. If there was a completely non-english-speaking gaeltacht, I would struggle badly to understand and be understood which is quite an indictment on the teaching as I was good at languages.


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## lionstour (11 Feb 2011)

Birroc said:


> So where is the planning/action for this Knowledge Economy? Yesterday all the Education talk among politicians is whether to keep Irish compulsory or not. Its a no-brainer in my mind! People need to wake up to the amount of time and money wasted on Irish. Make computer science compulsory would be more like it. I am sure our kids will thank us for the Irish language when they are forced to emigrate.


 
There is more to education than the creation of compliant drowns for multinationals. A balance can and needs to be struck between the overall good of society in terms of culture, identity, community etc and the needs to create workers for the "the knowledge economy", whatever that phrase is actually supposed to mean? 

The term is bandied about as if we are all supposed to aggree with it not to questions assumptions implicit in it. Such as what actually is "knowledge". 

Sometimes I think we get so stuck on the phrase and actually loose site of what we are trying to achieve. Its kind of like "innovation". Everything has to "innovative" from sanitry towels to buckets. I swear Ive actaully heard the word innovative used in conection with ads for those those two products recentlly


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## villa 1 (11 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> Experienced precision machinists with good computer and CAD skills.
> I don't care if they have a trade as a FAS qualification isn't worth the paper it's written on.


 
You should be careful making slating comments in an area that may have no expertise.

As I'm involved in Apprenticeship training i'm curious to know do you have any expertise in this area because I have and I can vouch for the Trade/Craft training programmes that are run under FAS and Institutes of Technology.

Our Trade/Craft apprentices whose qualifications as you say are not worth the paper that they are written on are an extremely talented group of peolple who luckily have no problems getting work abroad during this economic collapse. This is due to the training programme that enables young skilled craftspersons travel the world and adapt to differing work practices. Our apprenticeship system is recognised as one of the best in the world, just look at the medals achieved in previous skill olympics.


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## Sunny (11 Feb 2011)

I am more likely to listen to purple as an employer than results from something like the skills olympics. Seriously who thinks up these things. He is not the first person to raise concerns about FAS and going by the stories last year about FAS courses, he is right to be sceptical.


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## villa 1 (11 Feb 2011)

Sunny said:


> I am more likely to listen to purple as an employer than results from something like the skills olympics. Seriously who thinks up these things. He is not the first person to raise concerns about FAS and going by the stories last year about FAS courses, he is right to be sceptical.


 Do you know anything about apprenticeship and the skill olympics? If not do not belittle the role of a craftsperson or the training of such people in this country. Not all skilled training happens within the re-mit of Fas alone. You may need to do a wee bit more research before making such statements as "who made up these things".


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## Birroc (12 Feb 2011)

One big problem I see in the IT industry is the drop-out rate among computer science students in college. I have heard averages of 80% drop out rates for 1st year students in computer science. I am not sure why but I think a lot of people sign up for these courses not really understanding whats involved/expected and maybe they also struggle with the maths aspect.


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## Sunny (12 Feb 2011)

villa 1 said:


> Do you know anything about apprenticeship and the skill olympics? If not do not belittle the role of a craftsperson or the training of such people in this country. Not all skilled training happens within the re-mit of Fas alone. You may need to do a wee bit more research before making such statements as "who made up these things".



Where did I belittle any skilled tradesperson or craftsman but the point of spending taxpayers money on training is so they can get jobs, not win a medal at some competition. That is how success of training programmes should be judged. Purple as an employer who has experience of employing people said he  didn't believe in the FAS training. Maybe as a defender of the system, you should ask him why instead of jumping down his throat.


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## Sunny (12 Feb 2011)

Birroc said:


> One big problem I see in the IT industry is the drop-out rate among computer science students in college. I have heard averages of 80% drop out rates for 1st year students in computer science. I am not sure why but I think a lot of people sign up for these courses not really understanding whats involved/expected and maybe they also struggle with the maths aspect.



A related point is that many people are not suited to third level education but tend to be told they have to go there to have any chance of success.


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## villa 1 (12 Feb 2011)

Sunny said:


> Where did I belittle any skilled tradesperson or craftsman but the point of spending taxpayers money on training is so they can get jobs, not win a medal at some competition. That is how success of training programmes should be judged. Purple as an employer who has experience of employing people said he didn't believe in the FAS training. Maybe as a defender of the system, you should ask him why instead of jumping down his throat.


 
Because purple said that Fas qualifications, which I am directly involved in, are not worth the paper that they are written on. That is a slant on what I do.
Do a google on skill olympics and see if this is a worthless exercise to the skilled apprentices from all over the world who compete against each other.
Does taxpayers money go into sporting organisations?
Give purple a hug from me as well!!


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## UFC (13 Feb 2011)

I work in software development and most of the people I work with hate it.

Very few people will genuinely like it. The rest do it because of the jobs/money, which IMO is wrong.

So there is no easy solution to the "knowledge economy" unless you want a country of people who hate their jobs.

Also, not that many people are capable of being programmers.


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## Birroc (13 Feb 2011)

UFC said:


> I work in software development and most of the people I work with hate it.
> 
> Very few people will genuinely like it. The rest do it because of the jobs/money, which IMO is wrong.
> 
> ...



Agreed many people fell into IT during the 'boom' but there are so many other roles with IT - programmers, business analysts, testers, project managers, pre-sales, tech support, customer support, quality control, product management etc.

In any case, we need IT to remain strong in Ireland and the government need to get their act together. I know a multinational IT company in the west that got a €10 million grant for Research and Development even though the company do not do any R&D. They explained this to the government officials (Enterprise Ireland I think) but they insisted insisted saying they had to distribute their R&D budget. Free money for a foreign company.


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## robd (13 Feb 2011)

Birroc said:


> I have just learned of a no-go decision by a mobile applications company that was looking to set up in Ireland. At least 40 software jobs were expected. The reason they gave what that we didn't have enough IT resources. Existing IT companies are crying out for good resources (e.g. HP, Avaya). Foreign ICT companies are becoming aware that we have a poor Maths standard and that we are producing low numbers of IT graduates.
> 
> So where is the planning/action for this Knowledge Economy? Yesterday all the Education talk among politicians is whether to keep Irish compulsory or not. Its a no-brainer in my mind! People need to wake up to the amount of time and money wasted on Irish. Make computer science compulsory would be more like it. I am sure our kids will thank us for the Irish language when they are forced to emigrate.



At lot of the problem is brain drain caused by the recession. In better times you could hire people over from the UK, Mainland Europe or Poland etc. as they opened up.  Most people see Ireland as in deep deep recession and quite simply won't move here at the moment.  The still ridiculous cost of living and house prices/rental costs doesn't exactly help.

Added to that those professionals already in the industry won't move as the see people losing jobs left right and centre so job security becomes number one.  Also, the money role for role is the same as it was around 98-99 which is hardly tempting.  The recession seems to mean ICT companies expect to get people for about 30% less than 3-4 years ago.  Up the money and the market might open up a bit.

Graduates is a problem but it's been a problem since roughly 2002.  The problem is now more that there are very few skilled ICT people available to hire because of the 3 reasons above together. 

I contract at the moment as wasn't happy with last role and quite simply the contract market is much much more lucrative compared to what I was seeing in the full time market if I was to move.

So in conclusion it's more complex than you say and the money needs to pick up to get people to forgo job security and move.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

villa 1 said:


> You should be careful making slating comments in an area that may have no expertise.
> 
> As I'm involved in Apprenticeship training i'm curious to know do you have any expertise in this area because I have and I can vouch for the Trade/Craft training programmes that are run under FAS and Institutes of Technology.
> 
> Our Trade/Craft apprentices whose qualifications as you say are not worth the paper that they are written on are an extremely talented group of peolple who luckily have no problems getting work abroad during this economic collapse. This is due to the training programme that enables young skilled craftspersons travel the world and adapt to differing work practices. Our apprenticeship system is recognised as one of the best in the world, just look at the medals achieved in previous skill olympics.



I served my Apprenticeship through FÁS before they tried to turn it into a academic qualification. I spent my first year between FAS and Bolton Street gaining a basic grounding in the practical and technical skills for my trade before doing my junior trade exams. That meant that when I started with my employer I was less of a cost burden. The same model was used for my senior trade exams; block release and then exams. I found the training I received from FÁS excellent and I found the people who were trained in the same way were very good at their job.
 The current training model where employers conduct assessments of trainees is utterly meaningless due to its subjectivity. The quality of the so-called trades people coming out of the new training system is substantially inferior to what we were getting 15-20 years ago. I also find that their computer and CAD skills are not up to scratch. The fact that over the last 10 years we have training so few people in these high demand areas also doesn’t help.
It is my experience that in the engineering trades area Polish and Latvian trades people are technically superior to their Irish counterparts and have a much better work ethic.

BTW, if you think our engineering trades are on par with Holland or Germany then you delusional.


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## nai (14 Feb 2011)

robd said:


> At lot of the problem is brain drain caused by the recession. In better times you could hire people over from the UK, Mainland Europe or Poland etc. as they opened up. Most people see Ireland as in deep deep recession and quite simply won't move here at the moment. The still ridiculous cost of living and house prices/rental costs doesn't exactly help.
> 
> Added to that those professionals already in the industry won't move as the see people losing jobs left right and centre so job security becomes number one. Also, the money role for role is the same as it was around 98-99 which is hardly tempting. The recession seems to mean ICT companies expect to get people for about 30% less than 3-4 years ago. Up the money and the market might open up a bit.
> 
> ...


 

 Agreed robd - 

as I see it some of the companies out there assume that because there is a recession that experienced IT people will be happy to move into roles for less money with less benefits.

Some companies have recognised this fact already and are offering higher rates (+25% in some cases) but on more specific, specialized contracts than during the height of the boom.

I would encourage computer science in secondary level with some incentives to try encourage college take up.
There also needs to be an overview at the college level - I know colleges are interested in enrolments but they do need to increase the minimum requirements and possibly increase the points requirements as well.

Also IT can be interesting/rewarding - it just depends where you end up and what you end up doing ..... I spent years in financial services and didn't really 'get' the point ... am very happy now where I am.


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## villa 1 (14 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> I served my Apprenticeship through FÁS before they tried to turn it into a academic qualification. I spent my first year between FAS and Bolton Street gaining a basic grounding in the practical and technical skills for my trade before doing my junior trade exams. That meant that when I started with my employer I was less of a cost burden. The same model was used for my senior trade exams; block release and then exams. I found the training I received from FÁS excellent and I found the people who were trained in the same way were very good at their job.
> The current training model where employers conduct assessments of trainees is utterly meaningless due to its subjectivity. The quality of the so-called trades people coming out of the new training system is substantially inferior to what we were getting 15-20 years ago. I also find that their computer and CAD skills are not up to scratch. The fact that over the last 10 years we have training so few people in these high demand areas also doesn’t help.
> It is my experience that in the engineering trades area Polish and Latvian trades people are technically superior to their Irish counterparts and have a much better work ethic.
> 
> BTW, if you think our engineering trades are on par with Holland or Germany then you delusional.


 
What are the high demand areas?
What are the engineering trades?
What do you mean by subjectivity? Do you have expertise in all craft areas?
You have previously stated that the Fas qualification is not worth the paper that it is written on. That is a fairly damming statement coming from an employer. You're obviouisly not involved in the construction sector!!
Tell that to the thousands of construction apprentices working abroad at the moment. I bet their full craft certificate is worthless there!! 
There are plenty of horror stories out there about polish/latvian chancers doing dodgy work.
I am involved in apprenticeship training and I wasn't cloned from a testube. I know what is happening in the real world. I have the same as craft qualifications as yourself and while the current training programme lends to non existant employer training I can vouch for what I do in the classroom and workshop. Change is needed but do not make sweeping statements when you do not have an insight into the experience/caliber of the trainer/lecturer involved in Fas centre/Institute of Technology.


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## truthseeker (14 Feb 2011)

Agree to some extent that we should be offering computer science in schools but would also argue that not everyone is interested in/good at IT and subject choice should reflect this.

Im in IT as an economic necessity rather than by choice, I went to university to study Physics and ended up with a switch to computer science/software engineering in the latter years as the graduates who were pure physics (or pure chemistry or pure maths) werent getting jobs - and the computer science graduates were. And not only were we getting jobs, they were well paid, we were being head hunted - the future seemed bright!! 

Unfortunately almost everyone I studied with who went into IT has become burned out and had either a career change (usually by studying something else), or is just putting up with a job they hate.

Sure there are some who are suited to it and still enjoy it now - but its not for everyone.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

villa 1 said:


> What are the high demand areas?
> What are the engineering trades?
> What do you mean by subjectivity? Do you have expertise in all craft areas?


Have you read my posts?
I have commented on engineering trades rather than construction trades. Specifically Toolmaking. 
I am a time served toolmaker and have run my own apprentices through their training while I worked on the shop floor. Therefore I have experience of FAS as an apprentice, a tradesman and an employer. We have had difficulty getting skilled people for the last ten years. Please note that we pay significantly more than the wage levels quoted for a toolmaker on the FAS website. 



villa 1 said:


> You have previously stated that the Fas qualification is not worth the paper that it is written on. That is a fairly damming statement coming from an employer.


 My comments are specific to the engineering trades sector and with that qualification I stand by them. Being a time served tradesman means nothing to me when I see a CV. What experience a person has and how they get on during their trial period is all that counts.



villa 1 said:


> You're obviouisly not involved in the construction sector!!


 Correct.



villa 1 said:


> Tell that to the thousands of construction apprentices working abroad at the moment. I bet their full craft certificate is worthless there!!
> There are plenty of horror stories out there about polish/latvian chancers doing dodgy work.


 So what?



villa 1 said:


> I am involved in apprenticeship training and I wasn't cloned from a testube. I know what is happening in the real world. I have the same as craft qualifications as yourself and while the current training programme lends to non existant employer training I can vouch for what I do in the classroom and workshop. Change is needed but do not make sweeping statements when you do not have an insight into the experience/caliber of the trainer/lecturer involved in Fas centre/Institute of Technology.


 I found that FAS employees were excellent and had a good understanding of the real-world environment. I can’t say the same for some of the clowns in Bolton Street. 
As part of the training that I carried out on apprentices I was required to assess their skill levels in particular areas. This, obviously, was totally subjective (depending on the particular skill set of the tradesperson doing the training and the needs of the employer) and so was meaningless. 

It would make my life much easier if FAS was turning out skilled apprentices but that aint the case. That’s why we have had to go abroad to find the people we need. So far that means we’ve taken on people from the  UK, Poland, Russia, Latvia, Estonia, India and China. Irish tradespeople don’t have the mindset for 100% quality; a “it’s good enough” attitude prevails. They can’t get their head around the idea that if it’s not 100% right in every respect then it’s wrong.


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## villa 1 (14 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> Have you read my posts?
> I have commented on engineering trades rather than construction trades. Specifically Toolmaking.
> I am a time served toolmaker and have run my own apprentices through their training while I worked on the shop floor. Therefore I have experience of FAS as an apprentice, a tradesman and an employer. We have had difficulty getting skilled people for the last ten years. Please note that we pay significantly more than the wage levels quoted for a toolmaker on the FAS website.
> 
> ...


 
As I said previously, you made a sweeping statement about our apprenticeship system and being from one specific craft, toolmaking, you are not in a position to judge the many other crafts.
By the way who are the clowns in Bolton Strret?


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

villa 1 said:


> As I said previously, you made a sweeping statement about our apprenticeship system and being from one specific craft, toolmaking, you are not in a position to judge the many other crafts.
> By the way who are the clowns in Bolton Strret?


I said from the start that I was talking about engineering trades. I can also comment on welding, sheet metal fabrication and fitter-turners. The people we get who have served their time as apprentices are years away from being proper tradespeople. 
I'm not going to name names of people in Bolton street but some of them were useless. Others were excellent; some of them I still use for in-house training.


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## shnaek (14 Feb 2011)

Any country that has a tax rate of 56%+ on salaries of around 30K isn't serious about being a knowledge economy.
Hong Kong and Singapore are serious about it. 
What Ireland is serious about is a mystery. Paying off bondholders I suppose.


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## Mpsox (15 Feb 2011)

I work for an IT company and my biggest issue is not getting staff with IT skills, they're 10 to a dozen and if they have a reasonable foundation in IT, can be upskilled over a period of time. Instead, our biggest issue is language skills, the vast majority of my staff are non-nationals, simply because we cannot get Irish people with sufficently strong enough skills in foreign languages. Someone suggested on a previous post on this thread about a year spend studying philosphy. Instead, I believe transition year should be scrapped in it's current format and devoted to a 1 year intensive language course which then carries on to the Leaving Cert.

As for Fas, my own personal experience when I was in Uni, we had to spend 2 6 month work placements, one of which I spent working in a FAS office. The only way they could pay me was by registering me on a building course, so I am actually, a part qualifed bricklayer, according to Fas records (and have the cert to prove it). I know others who had a similer experience and frankly, if you were to hire us, we'd make the Irish builder in Fawlty Towers look good.


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