# Key Post: Central Heating



## sueellen

I am wondering does anyone know if this is a good deal or not. I have just received a quote of €13k for a total re-plumbing of an old end terrace 3 bed hse to include 13 rads, new boiler, cylinder, suites (main b/room, ensuite and d/stairs wc) and installation of suites. Thanks for any help!


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## Redbhoy

I rang a mate who works in the building industry. He reckons for your fixtures and fittings you're looking at max 6000. This comes down if you shop around. He said if the house was empty it could be done in a weekend. 7K seems a bit excessive to me for 2 days work. Bertie doesnt get that. If you buy all the f+f yourself you'll be saving the mark up on them from your fitter. Heat Merchants do good deals on suites. I recently got a load of bathroom fittings from them for 1000 which was costing me 1750 form Davies in Fairview. If you shop around for the f+f you'll get a great deal. Then shop around for a fitter. Remember to haggle as much as you can. The first price is usually for suckers.


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## Renovator

*Heating/Plumbing Cost*

thats exactly what I was quoted for 6k for f/f incl 1.5k for boiler and 7k for labour which I thought was maddness - he reckons it will take at least 2wks! Do you know of any good plumbers


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## heinbloed

*costs*

Hi renovator !
For the quoted price you might get an underfloor heating system , for the standard 13 radiator solution it's certainly over charged . The €1500 boiler is hopefully a combi-condensing type from heatmearchants ?! Otherwise your plumber certainly wants to rip you of .
Check heatmerchants or woodys yourself about the radiators . You might need two coils of Qualpex or a similar piping ( 100 m of the 15 mm   50 m of the 21 mm strength for about € 150 ) 26 bends and other junction material for around € 250 and 13 thermostatic valves for € 260 + some elbow grease .For what's left over book a long holiday in the south and buy " Collins DIY " or a similar book .


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## laoise

*heating/plumbing*

Heatmerchants actually have a pretty good website which includes prices.
You can check out a few boiler prices there at :

heatmerchants

Laoise


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## euroDilbert

*Re: heating/plumbing*

Assuming I can source a boiler (thanks also heinbloed for your reply on my related query) how do I find a good fitter for it ? I don't feel competent to install a gas appliance myself.

Has anyone any recommendations for someone who would do this - Dublin Southside.

Thanks.


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## heinbloed

*installing*

You can install it yourself EXCEPT the gas connection . Meaning all the water pipes and hanging it on to the wall ,
and supplying it with electricity . Once you are finished with that get a registered gas fitter to connect it to the gas mains and to do the final check and for certifying the job . That's important for your insurance and your beloveds .Most boilers work on a water pressure of 1 - 1.5 bar so you can pressure test your plumbing with the aid of the mains , provided it delivers enough .But in the tool hire you can get also a pressure testing kit .
I can't recommend any fitters but where you buy your boiler and plumbing stuff they surely a have phone number for you . A hint : go there asking at rush hour time and you have the free choice because the fitters have to cue as well to get their things  . For a better deal ask your neighbours for a local fitter who might be quicker to come around .
When you buy an item worth €1500  you can ask for the installers manual , certainly the manufacturer will supply you with it before you buy the thing .Baxi and Vokera do so anyhow .


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## Renovator

*heating/plumbing*

Hi just to fill you in - I got a quote for €9k for everything.
Saving €4k - so it pays to shop around!!
Thaks for the help


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## Renovator

*heating/plumbing*

Just to let you know I got another quote for 9k - saving 4k!! So it pays to shop around!
Thanks for the help


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## glenamaddy

*Cost*

Did you compare the quality of the Sanitary Ware?

What about the radiators, valves, boiler, type of showers etc. 

What about the controls oon the heating system, is it zoned?

My point being, if you go out looking for a car, would you buy a Lada because its the cheapest?


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## glenamaddy

*You can install it yourself EXCEPT the gas connection*

"You can install it yourself EXCEPT the gas connection . Meaning all the water pipes and hanging it on to the wall ,
and supplying it with electricity . Once you are finished with that get a registered gas fitter to connect it to the gas mains and to do the final check and for certifying the job" . 


The certification covers a lot more than the gas line.
It covers the wet side of the system and the electrics.
I doubt you will find anyone who will certify a DIY job.

"I can't recommend any fitters but where you buy your boiler and plumbing stuff they surely a have phone number for you" 


Contact Bord Gais for a list of Authorised Installers


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## sueellen

*Some other posts*

*euroDilbert
Registered User
Replacement Gas Boiler*

Looking for some advice on replacing a Gas central heating boiler - looks as if mine has given up the ghost - wrong time of year to live without it unfortunately.

Anyway, any suggestions on the best make and/or installers - or should I just go to Bord Gais ?

I am based Dublin Southside.

Thanks,

eD 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
gas boiler*

For efficiency reasons Bord gais would sell you a very expensive one that might save on gas . To get a better overview what is on the market check www.sedbuk.com

I bought my self the VOKERA hydra for €1400 + VAT from heatmerchants and installed it myself , it works perfect .
You have to shop around for the best price , the recommended retail price is something for the rich and uninformed . 

*Laoise
Unregistered User
gas boilers*

Although they are more expensive to buy, Condensing Boilers are to be recommended for their efficiency. Most models have ca 90 to 92% efficiency rates as opposed to the 65 to 80% efficiency ratings of non-condensing boilers. That means that you burn a lot less gas to achieve the same heating levels which, in turn, saves on your gas bills. The extra initial cost of the more expensive condensing boiler will soon pay for itself and from then on you save all the way on gas.
Laoise 

*kk
Unregistered User
Storage Heating*

I'm thinking of buying a small bungalow with storage heating. The only other house I am familiar with, which has this type of heating, is a very cold house, especially in the morning. And it takes hours to heat the house. Is this house a bad example of an otherwise good heating system?

I am a particularily cold blooded person! 

*Siddo
Unregistered User*

The older the colder i used to say.....

Older houses usually have poor ventilliation , solid or poured concrete walls with no insulation. YOu might find that installing central heating could be expensisve due to the concrete walls but if its brick work well then you are someway their , i installed a oil fire unit into a 3 bed tce costed a total of 4950 for oil burner, tank and 9 radiators. The house is like an oven, i would check the house for dampness , buying houses like your this time of year can be dangerous as yo do not see the winter effects due to the dryness.

But your heatrers are power drain and tend to give very little in the way of good heat , i personally hate the things. 

*0
Frequent poster*

Storage heating is fine (albeit not the cheapest option) when used in a well insulated (e.g. ESB Goldshield) property. We have it at home in our 1995 built Goldshield house and rarely have to supplement the storage heating with additional heating (electric convection heaters, open fire etc.). If the house is not well insulated then ANY heating system is at a disadvantage straight off and is not going to work to maximum efficiency. Check the property for insulation such as well insulated attic, well insulated/draught proof doors/windows, double glazing preferably, wall insulation (internal or dry lining) etc. 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
Storage Heating*

Electric heating is the most expensive heating you can get . Check for detailed calculations www.irish-energy.ie
Something else that is usually overseen is the environmental damage caused by using electricity as well as electromagnetic waves caused during the charging of an electric storage heating element . Older storage heaters might contain asbestos . 

*Cahir
Registered User
Re: Storage Heating*

Storage heating is useless if you work during the day. I have storage heating in the apartment I'm renting. If I turn on the heating it's lovely and warm for the 10 mins I'm there in the morning but by the time I get home (between 6 &  it's freezing and I have to turn on the convection heater anyway. 

*0
Frequent poster
Re: Storage Heating*

I find storage heating grand for keeping the house (well insulated as I mentioned before - Goldshield) at a comfortable level of "background" heating all day/evening long. I rarely have to turn the "output" on the storage heaters up as they seem to emit enough heat all day long anyway. One problem with storage heating is when you get a sudden change in environmental weather/temperature conditions to which the storage heaters can't react immediately since they charge up at night based on prevailing temeratures at the time... Cost can also be an issue as mentioned above. 

*cardigan
Unregistered User
Storage heating*

Be sure to check the rooms for the amount of outside walls there are. As it's a house I presume it's got more than say an apt. would have but it could be terraced. The more external walls you have, the harder it is to heat with storage heating. 
Also recently I called ESB and they told me that an electric storage heater (I have ESB Goldshield heating) cost approx. €60 bi-monthly to operate which is pretty high. I have storage heating in my apartment and it's fine if you can work it well, I also have apartments on eiher side of me and I'm on the second floor so it's toasty most of the time - but the other poster is right, it's so warm during the day and not as warm at night. Even though it works for me right now, I am currently looking to move house and storage heating is a defintie NO NO for me for this move. 

*kk
Unregistered User
Gas*

The house is maybe 10-15 years old. All walls are exposed to the great outdoors! The house is about 700 sq feet. So all space is near an external wall or window. 

Is it about 3,000 to install gas - does anyone know? 

*Jamie and his magic torch
Registered User
Re: Gas*

Hi Gas,

Just in the process of installing a gas central heating system. The cost is 6K for a boiler, 11 rads, hot water cylinder and attic water tank. All rads have thermostats and all piping will be copper. Also includes digital timer and all installation. This is for a 1.4K sq ft house. Obviously as you will not need as many rads this will reduce but I would say you are looking at a bill of 4K to 4.5K as a guess. When my heating is installed I will let you know how it turns out. These guys were very competitive and were over 2K cheaper that what a Bord Gais rep quoted me. This company I am dealing with are authorised installers for Bord Gais. 

*anon2398
Unregistered User
Anyone know if zoned heating is worth the extra money*

I'm looking for some quick advice! Mr. Plumber is in today to start our re-piping job (amoungst a growing list of things!) and just rang us to say he could put in zoned heating i.e heat upstairs separately from downstairs, for extra €300. Anyone know if this is worth it - or is this a gimmick, would it ever be used?

Thanks in advance. 

*stobear
Frequent poster
Re: Anyone know if zoned heating is worth the extra money*

Dont know much about this, but took a snoop around a massive showhouse recently, they had 4 gas boilers in the utility room, which I assumed was doing what you describe, heating different areas of the house without fiddling with rads. Inital outlay could be recovered long term if you made efficient use of the feature. This link describes in more detail [broken link removed]

*legend99*

No matter what kind of boiler you have as far as I aware to have zones you will need motorised valves to stop the supply to a zone etc.
This would have to be done during the piping really and is well worth it. 

I suspect that with the green house gasses and proposed carbon tax eventually it will be a regulation to have to get zoned heating in new builds....not sure if it there yet. 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
zoned heating*

What doe you- or your plumber- mean by "zoned heating"-(thermostatic)valves on the radiators?
When you burn your rubbish in the open fire something like a controlled room temperature might be something new for you .So ask your plumber what he means,usually this term is used for underfloor heating . 

*carla
Unregistered User
zones*

we have zoned heating that was set up on a Stanley and works by turning the valves or motors (not sure which or both) on. We have a set of digital timers (much more convenient than manual ones) and we set the different zones for different times, e.g. upstairs doesn't come on until later in the evening than the main downstairs area. There is also a switch for the actual Stanley itself which, if turned on on its own, heats the water with no heating. 
Whether you save money or not depends on your usage, we do because of later timing on upstairs heating and also at weekends we might turn on the downstairs heating for a bit during the day - upstairs is not needed then.
By the way, what is your plumber charging for - changing the piping, setting up the timers (need electrician also I think), etc.?


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## sueellen

*Some other posts*

*mary
Unregistered User
new house - oil central heating*

we're moving into our new house soon. the heating is oil so once we get a fill of oil will we have to get a plumber out to bleed the radiators or is this a relatively straight forward task that any DIY enthusiast could undertake? 

*okidoki987
Registered User
Re: new house - oil central heating*

Dead simple.
Just get a radiator key in any DIY shop and make sure you have a towel under it before you open the value.
Open the value with the key and let the air escape until there's a small drop of water and that's all the air gone.

*legend99
Posts: 323*

I think the system at the very start needs more than just simple bleeding...I thought technically it should be balanced as well or something like that? 

*Alpha
Unregistered User
Bleeding*

Before bleeding turn off the pump (or boiler if necessary)

Bleeding itself is a very simple job.

After bleeding turn on all radiators for a while. If one or more are not getting hot enough then you'll need to get the system balanced. This means adjusting the flow on rads around the circut so that all the hot water isn't going to the first rads encountered. Best to get a plumber for this. Very fiddly job to get right

When checking the temprature it should be an even temp for each radiator. If part of the radiator is not heating at all then the problem is not to do with balancing but rather a blockage or airlock in radiator. 

*legend99*

Thought you needed to have the pump on to bleed because you needed pressure in the system to expel the air from the bleed valve..at least thats how I always do it and thought it correct 

*alpha
Unregistered User
to pump or not to pump*

Guess it depends on the system but in a standard system where the water in the heating system comes from a storage tank in the attic then the pump should be off. 

If the pump is left on there is a danger you'd propigate airlocks through your system (in practice I think this is unlikely). The pressure to drive the air out of the radiators comes from the gravity feed of water from the attic tank. 

*legend99
Posts: 337*

thinking of a closed system.... 

*mary
Unregistered User
heating*

just found out that the system will be commissioned before we move in i.e. oil is put in tank and they turn on central heating and leave on for an hour or so and check all the radiators etc. 

*Alpha
Unregistered User
Sorted*

Sounds good Mary, Still it's worth checking yourself to ensure that the Rads are all working properly. This time of year it might be another 6 months before you need to use them at which stage it might be tough to get your plumber back. 

*glenamaddy
Registered User
oil burners*

FYI

The oil line requires venting in this situation, not the radiators as they are completly seperate from the burner. 

*sueellen
Moderator
Gas Heating -v- Oil Heating*

Presently have oil heating (and solid fuel) and thinking of changing to gas or if possible dual oil/gas. 

Any advice/recommendations? 

*ajapale
Frequent poster
Re: Gas Heating -v- Oil Heating*

Hi Sueellen,

Since gas and oil prices move in tandem and since the price of oil is likely to rise I suggest you go for the dual solid fuel and oil. This way if the price of gas and oil goes up you can burn more solid fuel and if the price of oil goes down you can burn more oil. In times of volatile pricing it pays to have flexibility.
ajapale
ps I havent heard from "heinbloed" in a few weeks but im sure he will have something to say about my suggestions. 

*sueellen
Moderator
Re: Gas Heating -v- Oil Heating*

Thanks for the reply. Had hoped that heinbloed, glenamaddy or effortless might drop by and read this post ............

Presently have oil and solid fuel but wanted to keep other options open. 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
gas/oil heating*

The most economic solution for your heating problem would a gas fueled combi/condensing boiler. It safes you the tank,the refilling of it as well as the mess associated with it .No more chimney sweeping.
Soon we will enjoy the benefits of a free market even in the gas sector (was it 2005?),so you would not depend on one company alone.

*glenamaddy
Registered User
gas v oil*

gas = way forward

Less maintenence, cleaner fuel, more compact boilers,etc.

however due to Board Gais stringent safety requirements they do not allow for dual fuel arrangements. 

*Murt10
Registered User
Re: gas v oil*

We recently changed from oil to gas and are v satisfied. 

We now have extra space in the kitchen where the old boiler was. The new boiler is much smaller and no longer in the kitcher. Also we can now get rid of the tank in the garden.

I would also leave the fireplace alone if you have one. It can be used as a backup in the event of an ESB or Gas strike and you will still have a means of keeping the house warm. 

Anyway, nothing beats a real fire on certain occasions.

*rainyday
Registered User
Re: gas v oil*

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gas = way forward
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Until, of course, our reserves are exhausted. 

*glenamaddy
Registered User*

 Same with Oil, which is rocketing in price at the moment.


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## sueellen

*Some other posts*

*seph
Registered User
home heating conversion*

hi there,
i am thinking of converting my house, which is let, from oil to mains gas.the reason is because the oil burner is located in the kitchen and has become smelly and noisey. I could move the burner to outside the house and stay with the oil but im thinking that gas is the better option. I would appreciate advice on this please.........
Is this a good idea and is it likely to add to house value ?
How do i get rid of the oil tank in the garden?, is this removed when i convert by the bord gas people ?
is there anything i should be aware of before doing this or is it really straight forward ? 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
home heating conversion*

To go from oil to gas will ad to the value of your house since you gain more space,get rid of the smell and if you decide to go for a condensing boiler than you can say by-by to the chimney and the chimney sweeper.A condensing boiler needs no traditional chimney , just an insulated pipe through the wall.And if you get a condensing combi-boiler than you can throw out the hot press as well.Combi condensing boilers are devices the size of a small fridge and can be placed in the kitchen under or over the worktop,build-in like a fridge or free standing/hanging.They produce domestic hot water on demand-just open the tap and they start working.Turn on the radiator and they start heating.There is no need for air holes in doors or walls,the air needed for combustion is taken from outside through the same duct through which the combustion gas/CO2 is blown out.
Under www.sedbuk.com you find various makers , many have their own home pages and these should give you more technical details. 
The cheapest one is ,as far as I know,the "Vokera Hydra".I got it for €1400 plus VAT,from Cork Heatmerchants last year ,installed it myself and only had the registered(!) gas fitter connecting it.
These boilers are not noisy,they will burn the fuel complete , so all you will realize from the outside of the house 
would be a small steam cloud coming from the duct,like from a laundery dryer,no "smoke" at all,no smell.
Empty the tank before removing it,give left over oil to your neighbour,don't pour it down the drain!
If you want to dismantle it yourself-it can be done.Hire a large angle cutter and safety equipment(quality dust mask class E2 or E3, good protective goggles,gloves,ear protection).Make sure that the tank is absolutely dry,no way to start working unless it is really dry-you could explode with it.Ask your installer what they would charge and figure it out.
It is straight forward work-once you know what you want.

*house
Unregistered User
replacing thermostat*

I have a shed at the end of the garden. the shed holds the oil burner which has a thermostat. I want to move the thermostat into the house. Anyone know how? Ive googled myself into the ground at this stage but still cant find the info.
cheers,
h. 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
replacing the thermostat*

You can buy remote controlled thermostats from HEATMERCHANTS , but you must give them details about your boiler.There are electric thermostats and mechanical ones ,some with timer and others with night temp.reduction.And your question didn't state the el.current at which the existing one is operating,what manufacturer etc..So better get some one in if HEATMERCHANTS -or any other good plumber shop-can't help.
One advice:If you don't want to waste money plus polluting the environment unnecessary bring the boiler into the house.Outside it has to run just to stop the pipes from freezing -and consequently from bursting-if you need it or not.Like having the car engine running over night to have an easy start in the morning.Idiotic. 

*house
Unregistered User
thermostat*

Heinbloed,

thanks for the tip on heatmerchants, I'll check them out.

The thermostat is plugged into a timer on the wall so it only comes on when I want it to. When the pipes were laid to the shed they were well insulated, theyre down 5 years now and they havent frozen yet so Im not worried about that.

The existing one is of the type that has 2 metal sensors (I presume have mercury in them) that go in to the boiler, so Im guessing its mechanical. The lekky is coming from the house so whatever your bog standard current is, that whats its running off.

I was hoping for a remote digital one if the price wasnt too bad but Id settle for running a line from the shed to the house. 

Its not for me you understand, the missus hates going out to the shed in her slippers, the poor dear.

*collieb
Registered User
Re: thermostat*

what about sticking thermostatic valves on the radiators? 

*house
Unregistered User
valves*

I could put the rad valves on, but wouldnt that only control the rads locally when the heating system was on and eating oil? So I wouldnt have thought it the most economical thing to have. I suppose if I had the gas it may work. 
I do have the valves off in the rooms not being used. I guess its kind of the same thing.

*glenamaddy
Registered User
Re: stat*

The thermostat you describe is a Boiler stat. It is a mechanical device that contains 2 thermostats. A regular one, which you can adjust, and a hi-limit one, that locks out the boiler if the first one fails. It controls the temperature of the flow of water leaving the boiler. 

These are often used (mistakenly) as a very primitive way of regulating air temperature.

What you need is a room stat located inside your house, which when satisfied, shuts down the boiler, note that this is completely separate and installed in addition with the boiler stat mentioned above.

If you are that concerned about fuel consumption you should consider zoning your heating system, into different zones, i.e. upstairs, downstairs, and hot water.


*macnas
Unregistered User*

The thermostat in my immersion is not operating properly. Can I replace the thermostat or the whole unit I did turn it down as low as I could with no change. The water is boiling hot! 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User*
replacing

Hi macnas!
You can replace the thermostat of your immersion.A new one is available from any plumber supplier for little money.Switch off the electricity,turn off the water supply,drain the immersion,disconnect the thermostat,take out the old thermostat,put back the new one ,reconnect it etc.... 

*macnas
Unregistered User*

Thanks Heinblod but do I have to replace the whole unit if the thermostat is faulty? You tell me to take out the unit ,which I have replaced last year, sounds like using a JCB to crack a nut???? 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
thermostat*

What "unit" are you talking about?You have to replace the thermostat,nothing else,I did not mention the -or any-unit.If the "unit" is only a year old than there should be still guarantee on it,2 years I think. 

*Anon2398
Unregistered User
themostat*

I'm not very knowledgable on this topic, but did get similar work done on my house during re-wire and re-plumbing. The electrician should be able to wire in a thermostat to your house and put a time inside also. You will have to involve plumber also (we did all as part of gas conversion so slightly different for us).

*house
Unregistered User
well*

Having spent the weekend looking at some very pricey equipment, Im going to run a line from the house to the shed, have that line powering the boiler and just have that on a timer. Should be handy enough. Ok, I cant control the temperature from the house but controlling when the boiler comes on and off is good enough and the cheapest solution all round me thinks. 
Now if only some knowledgable poster could tell me where to find a lekky wholesalers to sell me some gear, Im in business.. not buying it in woodies, even their new "take an hour to get in and out" flagship on the naas road.


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## sueellen

Cost of central heating


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## sueellen

*Some other posts*

*jim1
Unregistered User
bord gais pricing*

I was looking at the various price plans that bord gais offer and was finding it difficult to determine which one was the best to select:
www.bordgais.ie

I did a spreadsheet for various usage levels which seems to indicate that the reducing rate is the best option for users up to 13000Kwh per year - this seems to conflict with the advice given on the bord gais.

Anyone ever compare the various gas rates - am I missing something ? 

*heinbloed
Unregistered User
gas pricing*

These pricing politics are not consumer friendly as you have found out.The competition authorities have already complained about it.With success:New costumers are to be charged one rate,no more minimum or maximum consumption , different tariffs for different amounts of gas.Existing costumers are keeping the old contract but only for a limited time period.
The idea was to have a similar counting system as the electricity companies,one meter-one price per unit.
On the www.sei.ie web page was the "story" as well,if you can't find it there you can check the "fuel comparison sheet" of the same web adress.There you will find a short reference in the gas price list. Sorry that I can't give you any direct references, I remember reading it a few weeks ago in the "breaking news" of the Irish Examiner .


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## sueellen

*Some other posts*

*jondicanio
kerosene as compared to home heating oil*

Whats the difference between kerosene and home heating oil and which is cheaper? 

*ajapale
Re: kerosene as compared to home heating oil*

Keosene is also known as paraffin. Diesel is also known as Gas Oil. I think Kerosene is more expensive.

I got the following from a site called TutorGig.com:


> Kerosene
> 'Kerosene' or 'paraffin' is a colourless, thin, flammable liquid. A hydrocarbon mix, it is obtained from the fractional distillation of oil at 150nd 275the C12 to C15 range). At one time it was widely used in lamps but is now mainly used as a fuel in jet engine s. Its use a cooking fuel is mostly restricted to less developed countries, where it is usually less refined and contains impurities and even debris. Jet engine fuel, also called avtur, is supposed to be high-grade kerosene that produces less smoke.
> Kerosene is also used in various types of lamp: see kerosene lamp .
> Abraham Pineo Gesner (1797-1864) named it in 1854 from the Greek word keros ( wax ).
> It is called kerosene in the United States and Australia, and paraffin in the United Kingdom. It is also sometimes called kerosine or coal oil.
> 
> Diesel
> 'Diesel' is a product used as a ' fuel '.
> Petrodiesel
> One can obtain diesel from petroleum , which is called 'petrodiesel'. As a hydrocarbon mixture, it is obtained in the fractional distillation of crude oil between 250nd 350t atmospheric pressure .
> Biodiesel
> One can obtain ' Biodiesel ' from vegetable oil and animal fats (bio- lipid s, using transesterification . Biodiesel is a non- fossil fuel alternative to petrodiesel.
> Uses
> Diesel is identical with heating oil, used in central heating . In both Europe and the United States taxes on diesel fuel are higher than on heating oil, and in Europe, heating oil is marked with dye and trace chemicals to prevent and detect tax fraud.
> Diesel is used in diesel engine s (cars, boats, motorbikes...), a type of internal combustion engine . Rudolf Diesel originally designed the diesel engine to use coal dust as a fuel, but oil proved more effective.
> The first diesel-engine automobile trip was completed on January 6 , 1930 . The trip was from Indianapolis, Indiana , to New York City - a distance of nearly 800 mile s. This feat helped to prove the usefulness of the engine.


Hope this is of some assistance.
Ajapale 

*postagepaid
Registered User
Re: kerosene as compared to home heating oil*

As I understand it kerosene burns cleaner and is a must if you have an indoor boiler. It is, as ajapale says, more expensive. 

*heinbloed
tax on bio-diesel*

Hi Ajapale !

Taxes on bio diesel in the EU are a matter of the national finance ministers and do not adhere to EU policy on fuel taxes . In Germany and France for example there is no fuel tax on bio diesel . Phone Mc Crevy and ask him why it is not exempted here .Well, the farmers would drive their tractors to Lidl and Aldi for a fill where they used to demonstrate against the cheap prices .... Their voices would have to be bought some how else .....and the refinery would get competition....and the farmers would sell the cows and plant rapeseed instead...which would be used here instead of being exported ... which in turn would make them more independent from agricultural lobbyists ...and that costs donations,votes .... 

*Laoise
kero/diesel*

Kerosene is a lighter distillation fraction than gas oil. In general kero will have a density of approx 790 kg/m3 and gas oil a density of ca 830 kg/m3 (in Ireland). The flash point of kerosene lies around 45 C, that of gas oil approx 65C. Kero was often used mixed with gasoil in older boilers for this reason, that it would get the boiler going more easily than the heavier gas oil. Modern boilers wouldn't really need that. 
Kerosene is actually identical to jet A1 fuel as already mentioned above - the difference in classification arising only from the more extensive testing regimes required for Jetfuel before use.

Although the max allowed contents of sulphur for both products is 0.2%, in general kerosene produced in Ireland will have about ten times less sulphur than gas oil - about 0.01% as opposed to 0.14% in gas oil. Thus, it does burn with fewer SOx emissions. 
The main difference between standard gasoil and automotive diesel (ie the diesel you buy for cars) is also the allowed sulphur content. Auto diesel has a max sulphur level of 0.035% Sulphur. Low sulphur diesel has an allowed sulphur max of 0.005% - which is the auto diesel specification produced in Ireland. (This is set to be reduced to 0.001% from 2005).
As Heinbloed mentioned, biodiesel is an alternative to gas oil or autodiesel and in fact I saw it selling in many garages in Berlin recently for about 10 cents per litre cheaper than standard autodiesel. These prices are, however, heavily subsidised with tax breaks. 

*elderdog
Registered User
Well posted Heinbloed*

"Phone Mc Creevy and ask him why it is not exempted here "

I believe that Ireland is the only EU country not to take advantage of the special EU tax regime for biodiesel

Its a disgrace.

eDog 

*ajapale
Frequent poster
Re: Well posted Heinbloed*

Since there is a general concencus developing around the issue of bio diesel and tax perhaps this should from part of the AAM budget submission next December? 

*Slim
Registered User
Re: Kerosene*

Kerosene does not freeze as easliy as diesel oil. Winter deliveries of diesel home heating oil usually have some kero mixed in so that it does freeze. Had a delivery one time at end August and it froze in November. Oil co. said they only switch to Winter Grade on Sept. 1st. Aaaaagh!

Slim


----------



## sueellen

*Some other posts*

*gunnerbar
Registered User
Boiler problem*

I have an oil fired central heating with the boiler outside. 
Last week the tank went dry. After getting a refill I've found that the boiler doesn't fire up. Could I have caused damage to the boiler by letting my tank go dry or might the fuse blown/tripped when I tried to start the boiler on an empty tank. 

*Nappertandy
Boiler Problem*

Had this problem myself, what has happened is that you have an airlock in the hose from the tank to the burner so the oil is not getting to the burner .You need to take the casing off the front of the burner and look for a bleed screw ( that will probably be a hexhead). Open it and you will hear air hiss out, the airlock is gone when the fuel starts to dribble out and she should fire up.
Some burners have two screws 'P' and 'V' ,in that case I can't remember which one it is, but ring up the guy who delivered your oil....he will know which one to open. 

*gunnerbar
Registered User
Re: Boiler problem*

I'll try that when I get home!

Thanx. 

*Shaggy
Be Careful*

Be careful when adjusting the bleed screw/nut - if there is only one then this also limits the correct airflow to your burner. Try counting the amount of turns you make as you bleed the airlock, then just simply turn the same amount to tighten. There may be no need to tighten to the max. 


If you have already done this and your burner is making a horrible noise this may be the problem.

One more thing there is an over ride switch on the casing and this may have to be pushed in!

Hope everyting goes/went ok for you.


----------



## sueellen

*Some other posts*

*PGD
Frequent poster
radiator leak*

Hi,

The pressure on my gas fired boiler keeps dropping. I have found a little leak.

The hot pipe comes from the boiler. Just before the immersion tank (downstairs), there is a another pipe with a tap which allows more water into the system. Just after this there is a junction of some kind at the immersion. There is a constant dripping from this.

1) Can I seal this in some way to stop it from dripping. It is the hot water pipe. Is there something I can apply to it while it is still dripping?

2) I keep getting lots of air/noises as a result. I normally add water into the system and the bleed the rads and then add more water in until the pressure is back up. Can I now leave this tap open, so that as water drips out, more water comes in. I presum if I leave the tap open it will just balance out somewhere rather than overflow somewhere???

Thanks. 

*heinbloed1
Registered User
radiator leak*

I think it is not legal to have that tap constantly open.The reason is that pressure in the heating system will soon be the same as in the supply pipe. Once the pressure is the same there is the problem that during a low pressure in the main pipe some water from the heating system could go back in to the mains via the open tap.This would be dangerous health wise.
If you have an open system the feeder tank would overflow and the warm water that is leaving the system would be replaced by fresh cold water,increasing your heating bill dramatically.
So you better seal the pipe.It might be enough to adjust the junction washers with a spanner.If that doesn't do the trick than you would have to drain the system and loosen the washers next to the leak.You wrap some sealant tape(Teflon tape)around the threads and put back the washers .There are two ways to apply the tape-one is wrong.Get a pictured booklet or ask a plumber to do it,it is difficult to explain.
Than you refill the system,an open system can be easily filled with some anti corrosion agent-you simply pour some of it in to the feeder tank,the pump will mix it with the water.Bleed the radiators and keep filling up till the desired pressure is reached.(If the system is an open one than the feeder tank will overflow once it is full-somewhere at the outside of the roof you will see a small pipe sticking out between the roof tiles.If that starts to drip than you have enough pressure.)
With a closed system you have to fill in the anti corrosion agent in to the pipe system before you refill it with pressurised water from the mains,the tap(the desired pressure would be around 1 bar).Usually you would open the system somewhere upstairs,at a valve or so,and pour in the agent.Again,the action of the pump will be mixing it with the water. 
Anti corrosion agent is sometimes not necessary,for example if you have underfloor heating with plastic pipes.Ask some one in the plumber shop.They will tell you as well how much of it you might need.
Good luck. 

*legend99
Very frequent poster*

heinblood, i thought in a normal pipe compression joint connection you wrap the tape around the olive...have I been living a lie for the past 5 years???

I thougth it was
1. Cut at 90 degree.
2. Slide the cap you will tighten down the pipe. 
3. put on the olive on the pipe.
4. wrap tape on the olive.
5. insert the pipe into the female side of the connection.
6. hand tighten the cap.
7. use ur plumbers spanner to tighten, without over tightening to damage the olive???

Should the tape be wrapped on the threads on the female side?

*heinbloed1
Registered User
leak at the immersion*

Hi legend99 !
As far as I understood PGD the leak is "at the immersion",
and as far as I know there are no compression pipes going straight into the immersion.Correct me if I am wrong,maybe the more modern immersions actually do have compression fittings going straight into them?

*PGD
Frequent poster
Re: leak at the immersion*

ehh I'm a bit lost but thanks anyway.


----------



## Rutigur

From reading some of the above I'm interested in finding out more about a condensing combination boiler (natural gas). We will need a complete re-plumb of the house we have just bought and this solution sounds ideal as it will give us back valuable space by removing the need for a hotpress (currently in the bathroom) and the two water tanks in the attic. Am I right to think that this will also reduce the amount of replumbing to be done by the plumber? I also like the idea of its efficiency and the fact that it only burns fuel as necessary.

However, I’ve heard that you cannot have a power shower with this system, and this is a pretty big factor for me. This would mean that we need to have very good water pressure – is there anyway I can get a measurement of this or can the plumber do this?

Also, a friend mentioned that Dublin City Council are opposed to condensing combi boilers and that they would possible prevent us from connecting it to the water mains – is this correct (house is in Crumlin? What are the concerns the council might have with this system?

I’d be interested in hearing feedback from a few others with a condensing combi boiler in place – what are the pros and cons etc.? how much did it cost? Has anyone purchased such a system from a UK based website, if so was there much saving and does the warranty cover it if it is installed in Ireland?


----------



## sueellen

Rutigur,

There is some discussion/argument between Glenamaddy (Heating and Plumbing Contractor) and others in this link Cost of central heating which may help you with your enquiries.


----------



## heinbloed1

*central heating/question about condensing boilers*

Hi Rutigur!
Your first question about the power shower:Call the county council and ask them about the water pressure in your area.There might be  a pressure gauge somewhere at your water system,usually at the meter and/or at the boiler.
Having found out the pressure you can decide what you can have.Power showers are usually not necessary once you have a pressure above 1.5 bar.But have a look at the main water pipe coming in to your house:If it has a diameter of 21mm or more (and the pressure is correct) it is absolutely no problem to use a combi condensing boiler for the shower as well,you would have plenty of pressure (I assume your house to be of the standard type,2 storeys).Even if the diameter is smaller than 21mm it might still be good enough .There are also combi condensing boilers for open fresh water systems available.You can buy a pressure gauge from B&Q for € 5 or €10. 
Combi condensing boilers are mandatory in the Netherlands for example-as long as the builder does not decide to go for example for a solar system which would get an approval from the building controllers/planners even if "backed-up" by electricity.
Dublin City Council have no say in what you do in your house.That would be a joke if they try to ban direct feed water heaters-honestly,I have never heard about such an attempt.But you better ask,since they loose 40% of their water through leaks they might not be the fittest in terms of conservation/logic thinking/responsible workmanship.
The concern that they might have:to much demand on the water system.But check the site of www.irish-energy.ie/ They tell us there that builders get subsidies to put in combi condensing boilers,it would be very odd that they subsidise builders for conservation but would forbid the same for the private home owner....but we are in Ireland,better ask.
The job of plumbing a combi condensing boiler is considerably less work than the traditional British system.
And you are right:you save the hot press,the power shower,the tanks in the attic,the chimney and the chimney sweeper,the oil tank and/or coal shed.Saving the chimney alone would buy any home builder 2 condensing boilers instead...... 
I have a  combi condensing boiler myself (€1400.-   VAT)and I am more than happy with it.


----------



## MissRibena

*Re: >>Central Heating*

Hi everyone

I want to install dual central heating in the house I'm buying and am looking for advice. I've had very little dealings with any tradesmen in the past but the little contact I've had with (even recommended) plumbers has not been very reassuring. 
I will need an oil boiler, tank, stove (solid fuel) and about 9 or 10 radiators. 
Going by what was said before here, I'm allowing a rough estimate of €10,000 for this. Does this sound reasonable?
I also want to get a dishwasher plumbed in (right beside the current washing machine set-up) and have two WC pans & cisterns replaced (and possibly a sink). I was planning on buying the WCs, sink and stove myself although I'm afraid I might make a haymes of buying the stove.
I'm also worried about cosmetic aspects of the job. Will all the pipes run along the skirtings or will they go under the floorboards (where these are still in place)? Can I get the boiler put in the garage/shed approx 2-3m away from back door? Can I get the tank put at the back of this shed, which would mean it is quite a way from the road and house?
I'm trying to be as aware as I can before I start talking to them so they won't bamboozle me.
Thanks
Rebecca


----------



## extopia

*Re: >>Central Heating*

Your tank can  go anywhere where there is reasonable access. You won't want them running the filler pipe through the house though. Not sure how long the normal "oil filler hose" is, perhaps you could ring the local provider and ask.

Why are you hooked on oil by the way? Have you considered a wood-pellet solid fuel system? I would consider this to be a better investment in the long run -- especially if you are planning on installing a solid-fuel stove anyway. There are a number of companies that can advise you in this area. I've had some dealings with http://www.glas.ie and [broken link removed] ,and there are others.

Just a thought.

As for the pipes - almost anything can be hidden. Plumbers complain about it but be firm. They'll spout a load of guff about making it harder to fix leaks etc etc but this is misleading, to say the least.


----------



## z102

*Re: >>Central Heating*

For the €10.000 you get a top of the range condensing boiler plus all the other things like radiators,automatic valves , toilets and so on. Condensing boilers fit anywhere, under the counter, into the kitchen cup board etc..They are not much more noisy than a fridge/freezer unit.And they cost a fraction to run fuel wise compared to any other boiler.The worst place (energy loss ! ) for a boiler is outside or in an outhouse. 

There was plenty of discussion here about the issue,check the earlier threads.


----------



## MissRibena

*Re: >>Central Heating*

Thanks extopia and heinbloed. I've read the ealier threads but I'm nervous because I don't see many houses around other than with oil tanks and I haven't the first clue about plumbing and heating myself (nor has anyone I know, other than how to bleed radiators etc).  Any recommendation on a reliable plumber who could fit and maintain this kind of system in the west midlands?  Someone who knows what they are doing, would turn up and not rip me off?  I'd even pay more than the norm if I felt I could trust them.

Rebecca


----------



## HB1

*Re: >>Central Heating*

At http://www.sedbuk.com/ you can find oil burners and their efficiency.The manufacturers adresses/homepages are there as well.Contact them and ask where their nearest outlet/sales agent is based.Contact this shop and tell them in what situation you are,that you need this or that boiler and someone trained to install and commission  the entire heating system. They usually have at least one plumber for you.He or she should be trained by the manufacturer of the boiler.Irish plumbers are usually incompetent to go for something that they haven't seen before.So it is important that you get the right person,someone who is trained by the manufacturer.He/she will be also the person for maintenance and guarantee cases. 
I am saying this not because I don't like them.I read it again today at the home page of the Irish Energy Center.When you contact the manufacturer than ask for the price of the boiler,the recommended retail price.When you contact the shop than tell them freely that you have heard that there is a 20% off .Believe me,that is a normal proceeding,the r.r.p. is only for the plumbers to show on the bill to his client.No one pays this price who is in the trade.But sometimes the shop/retailer gives a good reduction by their own without asking."Heatmerchants" do so,at least in Cork.
Contact your County Council office and ask them for the water pressure in your street/adress. If you have more than 1.5 bar than you can opt for a pressurised system.That means you have plenty of water , hot or cold.And that means you can buy a combi condensing boiler.A combi condensing boiler will deliver hot water on demand,when you open the tap there will come hot water out of it.No need for a storage heater and a hot press , no need for the electrician to be involved.That safes money and increases your personal comfort as well as your living space.And the plumber has less to plumb-more savings- since there is less pipe work there is less  chance for a leak.The tank in the attic can be dumped , no noisy splattering automatic refilling.And the place where the tank stood can now be insulated against heat loss through the ceiling.
So there are only benefits by using a a proper boiler.One that has more than 90% efficiency-see Sedbuk.
When you buy the radiator valves go not for the cheapest.The better ones are automatic ones-you set the temperature that you prefer in the room and they will maintain it.Closing the loop when the temperature has been reached and opening when it is falling below the set point.A dozen-or ten of them- come cheaper than the asking price for one multiplied with ten or twelve,ask for it in the shop where you buy the boiler.
Toilets and sinks can be put in by any plumber,you won't need  the service of the trained condensing boiler plumber.But ask for the price , once at the job anyhow and he/she might give you a good deal.                               
The cheapest single lever mixing taps you get from IKEA or Argos. Plumbing shops are expensive for those things.I saw a few last week in B&Q and was shocked,at least three times what they cost on the continent,in IKEA (GB) and twice the price of Argos.Sinks are also much more expensive -about three times- in the plumber shop here than in IKEA (GB) or on the continent in general.
heinbloed


----------



## jack24

*>>Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi,

Bit of info/guidance needed. I am in the process of getting an extension planned (20sqm to rear, no PP required) and one of the things I'll be doing is converting from oil to gas. The old boiler house will be knocked down and the new boiler located inside the house (making a utility room out of a portion of the old kitchen). I wouldnt need a fancy combi boiler as one of the bathrooms has a power shower which uses a pump located in the hot press. There is side access (partly badly cobblelocked) and gas is available in the street and the house is approx 35 yrs old and located in north Dublin. I spoke briefly to the local gas installers who said a rough guide price (he had done some before in the estate) was €4,000. This included digging for the pipe to be laid, new boiler and flushing the system. He also said that some people who were changing over got their pipework replaced at the same time. He didnt however give any price for this. I'd like to ask if anyone has recently had the same done and if so what was the general price, 4k seems slightly on the high side, I have seen people give €2.5k-€4k as a ballpark price. Secondly is there generally a need to replace the old pipework if getting a new system in (we would be replacing a number of the rads downstairs)? I know noone can give a definitive yes or know without seeing the place, but any idea would be great. I dont want to get the conversion done and then find a year later that I should have done it at the time, but I also dont have an endless supply of money to throw at this, at this rate I could end up with an empty shell of an extension with microwave sitting on a chair. Thirdly, has anyone got an idea of the lad time to get the job done, I have heard it can take 2-3 months. Lastly (phew), any recommendations for good tradesmen/companies who do this kind of stuff. Any guidance will be greatly appreciated,

Thanks

Jack


----------



## DOBBER22

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*



			
				jack24 said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> Bit of info/guidance needed. I am in the process of getting an extension planned (20sqm to rear, no PP required) and one of the things I'll be doing is converting from oil to gas. The old boiler house will be knocked down and the new boiler located inside the house (making a utility room out of a portion of the old kitchen). I wouldnt need a fancy combi boiler as one of the bathrooms has a power shower which uses a pump located in the hot press. There is side access (partly badly cobblelocked) and gas is available in the street and the house is approx 35 yrs old and located in north Dublin. I spoke briefly to the local gas installers who said a rough guide price (he had done some before in the estate) was €4,000. This included digging for the pipe to be laid, new boiler and flushing the system. He also said that some people who were changing over got their pipework replaced at the same time. He didnt however give any price for this. I'd like to ask if anyone has recently had the same done and if so what was the general price, 4k seems slightly on the high side, I have seen people give €2.5k-€4k as a ballpark price. Secondly is there generally a need to replace the old pipework if getting a new system in (we would be replacing a number of the rads downstairs)? I know noone can give a definitive yes or know without seeing the place, but any idea would be great. I dont want to get the conversion done and then find a year later that I should have done it at the time, but I also dont have an endless supply of money to throw at this, at this rate I could end up with an empty shell of an extension with microwave sitting on a chair. Thirdly, has anyone got an idea of the lad time to get the job done, I have heard it can take 2-3 months. Lastly (phew), any recommendations for good tradesmen/companies who do this kind of stuff. Any guidance will be greatly appreciated,
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jack


 
If your pipework is all copper then it's fine and can be left as it is but if it's gunbarrel get it changed. Gunbarrel rots over time copper will not.
Bord Gais will recommend an approved installer.

[broken link removed]

Good Luck


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Pay back time for a condensing boiler versus the wasters is 2 years . And you really don't need to conect the shower to it . 
http://www.sedbuk.com compares the bangers with the technical advanced models . See yourself what they cost , you have a choice there of hundreds of models.


----------



## jack24

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Thanks Heinbloed,

Interested in you saying that the boiler doesnt have to be connected to the shower.  How would that work (as in how would the water for the power shower get heated if the boiler is producing hot water on demand and not filling the hot water tank, or have I got this arseways?)

Has anyone actually converted over recently and if so what were the general feelings/costs involved?

Jack


----------



## Sue Ellen

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi Jack, 

Have you had a read of the key post on Central Heating from AAM Key Posts - Homes and Gardens - it may give some help.


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

You can either use your boiler for home heating only or for delivering hot domestic water only or for home heating combined with domestic hot water . Neither the power shower nor the copper tank have to be ( but could be ) influenced by a condensing boiler. A combi condensing boiler would make the copper cylinder as well as the power shower obsolete . It depends on what you want.Go to the different manufacturers home pages via the Sedbuk page and have a look at their informations/technical details.
Savings of 15% between a banger and a condenser means that every 7. gas bill is for " free " so to say . A simple condensing boiler costs around  € 1400.- , a combi model about € 500.- extra .And they last 10 jears or more.


----------



## jack24

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Thanks lads,

I think I will ask the builder to quote for the work instead of having a separate contractor to worry about. If I ever manage to get my plans finalised and some quotes I will post the cost he proposes to charge me,

Jack


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Good luck ! Again, go for the best boiler you can get. See [broken link removed]Gas prices going up by 20 % means a lot of money can be saved by an intelligent heating system and proper insulation .


----------



## Marion

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Heinbloed, how difficult is it to change an existing outside boiler to a condesning boiler? I will be building a new room one of these days/months and I will probably need to move the outside boiler. 

I have read with interest your enthusiasm for condenser boilers so I would see this as an opportunity to perhaps change the boiler. The control switch for the oil-heating system is currently in a utility room which I will more than  likely be getting rid of to create an entrance to my new room. The condenser boiler would then have to go into a press somewhere. Are they relatively silent? 

Is it a huge job to install a condensing boiler? Will there have to be digging of existing floors? Did I read correctly when you mentioned somewhere that one could also get rid of my current hot-water tank which is upstairs in a hot press? 

I would like to know what I might be letting myself in for before I begin to track down a builder and ask him to do this particular job as part of the new building.

Marion


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi Marion !

I’ll try my best to answer your question . 

The first thing you have to keep in mind when installing a boiler is its position – where would it go. Once you have access to the “ flow and return “ pipes you can connect your boiler to those. Usually where there is a radiator in the room there is also an access to the pipes .

The next thing is to have a supply pipe feeding the boiler with fuel , which could be either oil or gas or LPG . If you have an oil tank in the garden then it is usually gravity feeding the boiler , the oil flows downwards to the burner .That means that your burner/boiler has to be positioned at a lower point as the tank to receive the fuel . That is the standard situation . But there are also oil pumps available that would pump the oil upwards to the boiler . 

If you have a gas or LPG supply it is easier . Since gas and LPG come pressurized they go where the pipe leads them – up or down to the boiler .

The third point to look out for is the flue outlet . With the old energy wasting boilers a chimney was necessary . Because of the high temperatures of the flue gas (“smoke”) it would be dangerous not to lead them away from humans or any other heat sensitive material .And the gases ( carbon dioxide and sooth ) are dangerous/noxious as well . Therefore the chimney . 

The condensing boiler masters these two “ problems “ by its technical design . The flue gases are cold , not hotter than about the flow temperature of your heating system. . That means if you run your radiators on 80 degrees – which would be quiet hot – than the flue gasses would have about the same temperature , maybe 5 degrees more or less .If you run the flow temperature at a lower temperature – for example floor or wall heating – at lets say 40 degrees than the flue gas temperature will be at around 35 degrees . 

So a chimney for the reason of fire safety is – with a condensing boiler- not necessary at all. You need no chimney. But the boiler would still release carbon dioxide . Which can kill if the concentration is high enough in the air you breath . Therefore the condensing boiler has a flue pipe leading the flue gases outside . Since the temperature of flue gases are so low this flue pipe can be made of cheap plastic . For safety reasons ( the carbon dioxide ! ) it is important to build this pipe so it will end at least 40 cm away from a fresh air supply of the house . These air supplies are a.) windows that can be opened b.) all doors and c.) any air vent , mechanically vented or naturally venting . 

So. These are the safety features you or your installer have to adhere to . The outlet pipe has to be 40 cm away from any air inlet.

The flue pipe consists of two pipes , one in the other . The inner one leading the fumes out and the outer one letting the fresh air in ( oxygen ! ) to the flame/burner.This solves the sound problem : Since the condensing boiler is a “ sealed system “ it needs no air supply from the room where it is installed . That means it runs quiet . Compare a radio sound from the next room with the door open and with the door closed to understand the point . Sound insulation is mainly achieved by sealing the source . 

So since the condensing boiler needs no air supply from the room where it is installed can be placed anywhere . Even in the bedroom – but that would need further sound insulation by for example building a coup board around it . I have mine placed in the kitchen , it is not louder than a fridge of the 80’s but slightly louder than a modern fridge . I have it not further insulated ( no cupboard around it ) even so the kitchen is an open plan type . It can be heard firing up when it runs on full power for the first few seconds . But then it modulates down to the required demand of power. 

Here we come to the two differences in condensing boilers : The modulating ones and the non modulating ones . 

The difference is this : The non modulating condensing boiler fires up until the desired temperature of the “ flow “ is reached and then it switches the burner off until the temperature drops far enough to trigger the burner to switch on again . And so on . You know it from your old boiler .

The “ modulating ” condensing boiler fires up as well but then it senses the demand of the flow and reduces the flame down – but still firing - to keep it running as long as possible with out overheating the “ flow ” . It aims to keep the flow at a steady temperature as long as possible with the flame on . It does so for two reasons . First it saves energy : because when a burner fires up at a higher temperature the flue gases are higher as well – that means more loss through the outlet. Secondly it reduces the number of ignitions giving a better usage rate of the system ( running hours ), the longer it is in use the more economic is a

system . Compare it with a taxi : as long as it is transporting/running it is economical , no matter how slow it drives . But if it is standing idle the half day it is not economical , no matter how fast it drives the other half of the day.

So a modulating boiler is cheaper to run and more quiet , more quiet because when running in the modulated modus it burns less gas/oil/LPG . Compare it with the noise a car makes when speeding or when waiting at the red light . The engine is running but it is not as loud.

Can the hot press/the copper cylinder be dumped ? Yes , if you buy a so called “combi” boiler . Combi boilers are available as modulating condensing boilers , as non modulating condensing boilers and as ordinary boilers . The major point is , as you have said , that this boiler delivers hot domestic water . As well as heat for the home heating.

This demands a water supply to feed it and an outlet pipe for taps , showers etc.. 

So placing a boiler somewhere central in the house makes sense. The water pipes won’t freeze and the supply ways are short . The shorter the pipes the cheaper it is to get hot water from the boiler to the tap . Because when you want lets say 43 degrees at the tap you have to set the boiler at 44 degrees –provided your hot water pipe is not to long and insulated . If it is longer the boiler has to be set at a higher temperature.

The both temperatures – hot domestic water and central heating flow – can be set individually , independently from each other . In a combi boiler .

But not in a “ not – combi- boiler “. In a “ not combi boiler “ – the type of boiler that you have now – the flow temperature for the radiators is heating not only the radiators but also the storage copper tank for the domestic hot water . That means double wasting of energy : firstly the temperature for the taps is to high , it has to be be mixed with cold water to prevent scalding . Secondly the storage tank has a capacity of at least a hundred liters . As long as this capacity is not at temperature it cools down the circulating water in the heating system . It has to switch on more often than necessary because it takes a long time to heat up a large quantity of water . And due to the size/large surface of it the tank cools down fast . “ Hot “ press means that heat is lost from the heating system . Imagine you wrap ice bags around the pipes of your heating system . Not very economical.

So the best place for a combi condensing boiler in an existing structure is – in my opinion – somewhere in/near the kitchen or somewhere in/near the bathroom . Near to a tap . The flue pipe can be extended up to ten meters long to the outside wall . When employing an additional fan than even longer . 

So when you go for a combi boiler the most important thing – from the installers point – is to have enough fresh water . Phone your county council office and ask them about the pressure minimum in your area . With this number ( bars ) you then look for a combi boiler . The manufacturers give detailed information about the minimum/maximum pressure . 

Check the Sedbuk page for different manufacturers , go to their home pages and check the details . The average Irish hom,e has a heat demand of around 12 kw , if it is an older less insulated building may be 20 kw . But before going for a bigger boiler go for some extra insulation . And the wider the modulating range the cheaper it is to run the boiler . In most cases something between 4 kw – 12 kw is ideal . 

Now I try to get this text in to the AAM and hope there is enough capacity…. 

.


----------



## Marion

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi Heinbloed!

Thanks for the thesis. I will print it out and read it carefully.

Thank you for taking the time to explain it in such detail.

Regards

Marion


----------



## secondtime

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

thanks Heinbloed, I need to do the same job as Marion and that answer covers all my questions and some I hadn't even thought about
cheers


----------



## kfpg

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

That is a fantastic post by Heinbloed it contains just about everything you need to know about gas condensing boilers. In the process of building myself and have just installed one. I can confirm the quietness of the system - hardly audible when running. I do agree it is important to look for models with as full a modulating range as possible. For other self builders where the trend is for bigger houses there are models available which can modulate fully from 3kW to 23kW (mine = ATAG Blue Angel) to give the extra power you may need for the greater than 2500 sq foot house. On the combi boiler side of things I did not go that route as I was not convinced that with the distance to my shower / bath and the possibility of busy times maybe two showers running that the combi could meet the demand. I decided to couple the ATAG up with a rapid recovery hot water cyclinder. The boiler also keeps the underfloor heating and the domestic water flow and return circuits separate (although domestic water gets priority when called for) so there are no conflicts between the low temp needed for UFH and the higher temp needed for shower / tap / bath. The other reason I added the rapid recovery cylinder was that I might decide to add solar tubes (not sure if it would benefit me with an already efficient system - Heinbloed??) to the roof at a later date- the tank I bought is prepared for this addition with an extra coil.

That's my call on it anyway - perhaps interesting for self builders?

BTW - if Heinbloed is not already an energy / environmental consultant he / she should be!!! - keep up the good work.........


----------



## Carpenter

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Now for my two cents worth. I would go for a condensing boiler, not combi and fit a new rapid recovery factory insulated hot water cylinder. If you go for a cylinder with a top or side entry thermostat probe you can fit a 3 port motorised valve to divert hot water flow from the cylinder once the stored water temp is high enough . To ensure maximum efficiency all pipework connections to the cylinder should be insulated in accordance with Building Regulations Part L, this is often omitted. Also I'd replace rads with new, old ones will probably be filled with sludge and suffering from corrosion. fit Thermostatic radiator valves(TRVs) to all rads. I can personally recommend "Drayton" valves, I recently replaced older valves in my house with this model, they are good value, high quality and very responsive. You can fit a newer type of circulating pump which is also modulating and varies the speed according to demand, important where TRVs are used. Also very important to flush system through to remove any scale, dirt etc. When refilling add Fernox inhibitor to your system and you'll have the most efficient heating system around.


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Thanks for the response .
Adding a solar heating system to an already existing heating system makes sense , Lakeview , because you won't get energy for free . When using a carbon based fuel like oil or gas one always has to pay for every kilo watt . No matter how efficient an existent heating system is working , nothing comes for nothing . 
That means even when our efficiency is 100 % we still have to pay for the fuel . 
But the sun delivers for free - once we we have the means to make use of it.
When someone decides to deliver us coal for free to the front of the door we still have to bring it in , have to bring out the ash , provide for the stove and the chimney and the bunker and maintain these .
Installing a tank with the third loop ( like Lakeview !) was a wise decision , it will certainly make it worth -not only in terms of money - to install a solar collector as well . Calculating the pay back time for these additional costs is an individual task , mainly depending on the demand of hot water and the cost of the "alternative " carbon based fuel . The Irish energy center at http://www.irish-energy.ie/ provides us about three times a year with fuel comparrison sheets where we can ( roughly ) compare the prices of different fuels needed to create one kilowatt of heat .
As Carpenter has said it might be important to use an anti corrosive agent in the heating system . But that is not an issue with a modern underfloor heating system because there aren't many metall parts in such a system and once the system/loops have been filled they stay more or less untouched for the rest of their life time . The lower the running temperature the less the corrosion . But using radiators - as Marion is planning - would make it necessary . The hotter flow temperature running in a radiator system makes any chemical reaction just happening faster/more agressive . And there are more connection points in a radiator system , increasing the chance of chemical reactions just caused by two different materials touching each other and by the chance of air entrance as well .
With all heating systems the thermostatic valves are a great developement . Not only that they give much more comfort , they really save money/energy .
More recent models come even with distance (remote ) control , like a TV set , they even have timers build in . But if these features realy safe money ( pay-back time ) depends on the developement of future energy prices . They certainly ad to the comfort if the user is not overwhelmed by all their possibilitys.


----------



## Marie

*Conversion to gas central heating*

I have an excellent plumber who commented last year during the annual maintenance of my gas central heating system/gas fires that very shortly it would be required _by law_ to replace the old system located in the chimney breast.  He also advised that house-hunters were now asking for reduction on the asking price of older houses if they did not have the combination-boiler system.

I have a few questions.  My next-door neighbours have a combi boiler.  You say it is relatively quiet.  HOWEVER the flue of my neighbours' exits on their kitchen wall about 8' away from my kitchen window and when it is 'firing up' there is intermittent high-pitched noise.  Also, the waste gas comes 'straight out' (i.e. the outlet pipe does not turn upward.  Must this be the case?  Is there an alternative arrangement?

Secondly, I understand other demands on the hotwater supply can affect the temperature of the shower.  Setting up separate systems for underfloor heating, central heating etc. have been mentioned.  How expensive would this be?

Finally - should the old contraption (you call it 'the banger') be taken out and discarded.  Is this a job for the builder or the plumber?


----------



## Marion

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Heinbloed, another thought!

I have 2 electric showers - one in an ensuite and the other in the main bathroom. I despise both of them not because of the brand name - they are both Triton E100 - but because I live in a very high limescale area. 

The water temperature often switches from hot to cold and can obviously be dangerous when it switches to hot!. I remove the shower heads very often to clear the lime scale granules. I would be happy to replace both showers with something that would give a decent shower without the risk of being scalded. My house, which was a new build, is just about 8 years' old.

Would this issue still arise with a combi boiler or the rapid recovery boiler if I were to replace the electric showers with regular showers with a thermostatic control? 

It is not possible for me to get on the main gas line (our estate was finished when they came to the town - I did enquire, but never got a reply nor did others in the estate.) so I will have to go the LPG route. At present, I have a gas fire and a gas hob. With my extension, I will have an additional gas fire.  Currently, my central heating is by oil.  It also heats my tap water. I also currently have an emersion water tank in the hot press. I have 2 Gas tanks which change over when one is empty. So, I think it would be better to completly switch to LPG.

Also, Heinbloed, why do you say (elsewhere) that the water from an attic tank is unhygenic. That is where my current shower water and upstairs bathroom/ensuite water is coming from - isn't it? 


I haven't yet received my plans for my new extension. They are on the way! I will try and incorporate as many energy-efficient products as I can afford - heating, windows etc.

Thanks for your invaluable help so far!

Marion


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi Marie ! 


There is a difference between a  " simple combi boiler "  and a  " Modulalating Combi Condensing Boiler " what might explain the noise from your neighbours boiler that you hear. 
Boiler manufacturers will give you the decibels ( unit for noise/sound) created by their products. Compare them.The lower the number the more quiet they run.
A flue pipe can be directed anywhere.
A Combi Boiler - no matter how modern it is - will do two things independently. It warms water for the taps AND it warms water tu run in the heating circuit.
Think about your kitchen cooker . You can use the different plates and the baking department at different temperatures . Independently from each other.
On the one plate you have the frying pan at 180 degrees whilst next to it you can have a sauce simmering at 100 degrees.
That is the meaning of a combi boiler . It combines several features.And all of them can be set by the user to do what they should do. The amount of heat, the running time , both can be regulated by the knob / switch.
Anyone with a bit of elbow grease and a few tools can dismantle an old boiler . Maybe the new waste regulations concerning electric goods will catch here, you might be able to give back the old boiler where you buy the new one . Old boilers will contain asbestos, so they won'be excepted as scrap metall but are hazardous waste , call at your local council what to do with it.


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi Marion !The higher the temperature the more lime scale will be created. An electric shower heats the water up to around 90 C and then mixes it with cold water to cool it back . A modulating boiler will heat up only so far that the set temperature will be reached and then MODULATES the flame to keep the temperature of the water at the set temperature. 
Compare it with a TV set : instead of having it set at full blast and then wearing ear protection to stand the blarring noise you could regulate the sound and safe on the ear protection.
Or with a bath tub : instead of filling it with boiling water first and then adding cold water you can have it filled with an ambient temperature of your choice in the first place. 
A modulating boiler will do that for you, it keeps the temperature at a point that you want. You set it at 40 degrees and it warms the water to 40 degrees. If you set it at 41 degrees it warms the water to 41 degrees . And so on.
This has two advantages. First it safes energy. Secondly it avoids the build up of lime scale. Remember : The hotter the water the more agressive / the faster chemical reactions happen . I have a private well for example.The water test reveals that I have hard water ( ? ) - 120mg disolved lime per liter . My kettle is nearly always covered in limescale , it takes 2-4 days after cleaning it to come back.The kettle runs at 100 degrees Celsius  and produces only a few liters per week. The boiler runs at 43 degrees Celsius and produces hundreds or thousands of liter per week.But neither the boiler nor the shower nor the taps show any sign of limescale. But it is the same water from the same well they use. 
It makes economical sense to switch from electric energy to gas.See the fuel comparrison sheets from the Irish Energy Center.
But bottled gas is expensive . And hiring a tank is expensive as well. Because you will be stucked with the LPG company that hires the tank to you-you can't buy the LPG some where else where it would be cheaper.
As the saying goes in Arabia : first you give away the lamps for free and then you sell the oil for them !
So buy your LPG tank . It cost around € 800 .- initially and then the savings come in. LPG costs at least 20 pecent less on the free market.But they deliver only to you if you have proof of tank purchase , the bill showing that you have bought the tank . LPG from the free market costs as much as natural gas . The people from the Irish Energy Center haven't even heard about that method , they give the prices only for fillings of rented tanks .
But check the larger supermarkets in areas without natural gas connection , they all go for LPG in tanks that they have purchased . Not rented . Who would be so " stupid " and rent a car when one is only allowed to buy the petrol for it at the same and only petrol station whos owner is the car rental company !? 
But you have already an oiltank.So you could buy a Modulating Combi Condensing Boiler running on oil .They exist . The choice isn't that big but they are widely in use . They are slightly louder than gas boilers but not much , again : compare the decibels and their features with the aid of the sedbuk page.

I'm afraid that I'm logged in to long so I stop here.


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Back ....again.

The hygene problem with the tanks in the roof is eminent.Most of our public water comes from open reservoirs , lakes , rivers . So it needs chlorine to get the bacterias immobilised / killed . Chlorine is a gas. Gas stays in liquids only as long as these are under pressure . As long as the water is pumped through the pipes it is under pressure. As soon it is tapped/released from the pipe the pressure is not existing anymore . The gas ( here: chlorine ) will evaporate. 
Compare it with a bottle of sparkling water : As soon as you take the lid from the bottle the carbondioxide will evaporate . If the bottle comes from the fridge it will take hours . If you place it in the sun it will take minutes . The warmer the water the faster it reacts. See the article above as well .
Tanks in the attic are open . So the chlorine will evaporate. Especially in summer . When it is warm . And when it is mostly needed because of a higher bacteria count in the river water . Bacterias - esp. colis- love it warm. Tanks are not insulated from below so the heat released from your ceiling , usually the hot press, is keeping them even warmer. To avoid the water freezing in winter.
That is the pressure related hygene problem. 
But there are more : Tanks are open. That means thirsty mices and all your lodgers in the attic can drown in them. In the old times people where advised to put a stick in them so creatures can safe them self from drowning . Otherwise you would be having mice soup from the tap . Or spider coffee . Or rat tea .
Remember that the chlorine wouldn't be working any more since it has evaporated.
Third point : Our roofs are insulated with loose glass wool . These fibres are very fine and end up at  sticky surfaces . Moist surfaces are sticky surfaces - as the water surface in your open tank. Take a strong lamp with you into the attic and see yourself how much dust is hoovering through the air.
But there is more than glass wool . Pesticides and fungicides released from the timber , PACs from the roofing felt . And so on. 
So going for a closed , pressurised system is the only answer to the problem . The rest of the world is doing so . In the last issue ( No.9) of the magazine " Construct Ireland " an Irish plumber wrote an article about the issue . With the conclusion that Irish plumbing is the worst he came across.
I said so here one or two years ago and was attacked by several plumbers here in the forum . They have been remarkable quiet in the last time. I hope they are o.k..
Did you know that Ireland has the highest antibiotic consumption per capita in the EU ? We try to make up with tablets what we lack on hygene .What is good for business of course , see all the new drug shops/pharmacists .


----------



## kfpg

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*



			
				heinbloed said:
			
		

> So buy your LPG tank . It cost around € 800 .- initially and then the savings come in. LPG costs at least 20 pecent less on the free market.But they deliver only to you if you have proof of tank purchase , the bill showing that you have bought the tank . LPG from the free market costs as much as natural gas . The people from the Irish Energy Center haven't even heard about that method , they give the prices only for fillings of rented tanks .


 
Heinbloed - I have seen you mention the "free market" in a couple of posts. What or who do you mean? Calor or Flogas are the only people who operate the locked in rent and re-fill arrangement. When you say free market are you just bargaining these two against each other?


----------



## Carpenter

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi All
Regarding Heinbloed's comment about underflor heating systems not requiring corrosion inhibitor beacuse of plastc pipework, correct to a point....but the boiler heat exchanger is still metallic (aluminium alloy or steel) and prone to corrosion.  Fernox also state that their inhibor will improve eficiency of any central heating system.

Spot on regarding water tanks in attics.  All new houses are now plumbed with a plastic (polypropylene usually) tank that comes complete with a cover, thankfully.  however even with the cover insects will still find a way in, usually through the overflow pipw, which tends to terminate in the eaves/ soffit.  water from such storage tanks is fine for washing etc but not for consumption.  Regarding limescale Marion should consider fitting a water softener, easy to fit and cheap to run it will prolong the life of your water consuming electric appliances by years, check out www.culligan.co.uk for details of how they operate. It is important to leave the kitchen tap water unsoftened for drinking.........


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi Lakeview !
By " free market " in the LPG business I mean that you can buy LPG where you want.
Signing a contract with a company that rents the tank means that you would have to buy the gas from the same company . To the conditions they decide . 
That is the opposite of a free market.
Compare it with Eircom . They owned the line . You had to use them and no other company. The prices where high . Only when EU law forced the government to open the market the prices came down. 
Compare it with the puplic transport , the post ect. As long as you are hooked to the only supplier you take it or leave it . No choice.
With the LPG it is a similar thing. See my article above . 
The alternative is to buy the tank and phone around for filling . The price difference is huge . 
Flogas , Calorgas , Blue gas ect. are not working in a competitive environment . It would be bad for their wallet.
And you don't have to wait for the EU or Dublin to enforce competition .
You simply choose yourself if you want to be cheated . Sign the contract and you loose out. 
If you have a shoping bag from Tesco Spar would still fill it for you . Not so the gas tank hire companys. They won't interfere/compete with each other.
Tank maintenance , once every ten years a pressure test , can be done by any gas fitter . He would not have to be employed by a particular company.
We have cars running on LPG . The NCT is testing them , resp. the garage on the road . Not the petrol station . Nor Flogas , Calor gas ect. who rent the tanks to the petrol/LPG stations .
Yes, I'm bargaining any one who want's to do business with me . And Flogas and Calorgas are always loosing the job . Because they are very expensive . At the moment Tervas is getting my orders . Because they are cheaper. The product and the service is the same. It comes all from the same refinery in Cork . And they don't do special orders for the individual hauliers and traders ( quality ! ) . It is allways from the same big tank . Adhering to the same standards . So a big name means nothing - except a big price.


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi Carpenter !

I insist on the fact that a closed heating system needs no chemical inhibitor.
Here is a quick lesson in metallurgical science : 
First reason : Modern boilers have a " probe " ( is that the correct term ? ) build in that would rust away before the system starts to rust .This " sonde" is made of a weaker metall , one could call it also a build- in- fault . This is a normal feature in industrial boilers since a century or so . 
Secondly : Once the water in the closed loop has had some time to react with the probe (and what ever metall is there ) it is saturated . It will just stop to react . It won't be agressive to the metall in the system no more .
Modern boilers need maintenance , once per year at least . Then the probe will be checked and replaced if necessary . 
I think I have seen these probes even in modern immersion/waterstorage tanks here in Ireland .
It is a different story though with an open ( " vented " ) system . With these there is a regular topping up necessary . New ,fresh ,sometimes agressive water is
filled into the system . That - and the fact that the outdated banger/boiler simply have no " probe " - makes these inhibitors necessary .A nice job creation scheme is that , isn't it ?! 
The boilers rust away , the radiators rust away and both, manufacturers and fitters are happy. Who in all earnest is measuring the inhibitor concentration when aerating the radiators and refilling them ? And replacing the lost inhibitor ?
The heat exchangers in modern boilers are meant to be covered in a patina ( on their inside, the water contacting side ) that helps to protect them . Like a cast iron pole or a raindrain that is covered in rust . The rust protects it against rusting . 
Or as the zink oxide on a zinked ( galvanised ) screw. As long as there is no mechanical/chemical abrassion of the oxide layer it will last a very long time . With rust sitting on it and protecting it .
I hope that clears the situation a bit.

Regarding the watersoftener. These things are not realy cheap . They need regular replacement of the salt.The salt will kill off the good bacterias in the septic tank . Or in the reed bed . That leads to pollution of the ground water . And that is very expensive. Demanding a new water supply.What makes the plumbers happy .
The salt comes from the Netherlands or Germany ( Solvay ). One needs about a bag of 25 kg every so often, once or twice per quarter in a 2 person household depending on the hardness of the water to be treated.
Controlling people that they should not drink the water from the taps or the shower or the american style fridge is hard . If you have a guest house or mentally handicaped people or children in the house it is impossible.
Water must contain a certain amount of chalk. To protect the pipes from corroding . See above . The patina (in this case a thin layer of chalk/lime) protects us from a copper or zinc poisoning as well . Pipes running demineralised water are extremly prone to corrosion . What keeps the plumber happy . But causes a hole in the wallet of the house holder. 
Marie has this problem with the shower heads only as far as I understood.
Why not solving the problem at it's root ? Avoid to heat up the water to exessive temperatures and the problem is solved.
That not only safes on detergents to clean the shower heads but also on electricity . A powershower is not necessary with modern plumbing . An electric water heating system is not necessary . The tank in the hot press is not necessary. The tanks in the attic are not necessary . 
The plumber looses out.The consumer gains comfort and a cheaper utility bill.
By switching to a modern plumbing system . With a pressurised water system and a modulating combi condensing boiler taking care of the rest.
No Tanks . No Salt. No anti corrosion agents.
In the old times one needed a stall , a horse in it , a cart , a barn for the barley and a shed for the cart , a farm labourer , a smith , a wheelmaker, a horsetrainer and a coach man . To get from A to B . 
These times are gone.


----------



## Carpenter

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Heinbloed
My comments regarding the use of an inhibitor were intended to be applicable to an open vented system, which is case with most houses built in this country. The "probe" you refer to is a sacrificial anode and the chemical reaction which takes place is akin to that which occurs in a wet battery (such as a 12V car battery). True such anodes are built into all copper storage cylinders and most boiler now, but not so in the case of radiators. Regardless of the PH level or lime content of the water in a system there will be some very gradual "erosion" or chemical stripping of pipework (copper) and metal components in a heating system. This can result in the sludge or magnetite that is found in older untreated systems. I think for the sake of €35 or so I would still add an inhibitor to an open, vented system, regardless of sacrificial anodes. Of course nobody checks the inhibitor level of their system, but a well maintained system that is leak free should not be refilling at all, save to top up losses from the system through evaporation from the expansion tank in the attic. There are other benefits to using the Fernox product which are well outlined on their website, so I won't repeat them here, suffice to say that water treated with the inhibitor conducts the heat better and more efficiently, is better for TRVs etc.

Your argument regarding water softeners is I believe flawed. The amount of salt water discharged from the brine tank is quite small and would not harm the bacteria in any reed bed or septic tank, unless tiny. A water softener would typically discharge approx. 4 litres of brine each time it regenerates (every other day). This compares to how many litres of detergent ridden water discharged via dishwashers, washing machines etc. The overzealous use of detergents is a big factor in the performance of any waste water treatment system. By fitting and using a water softener you can actually reduce the amount of detergents required in the home, thus reducing the amount of detergent and phosphates which end up in your septic tank, reed bed etc. 
Furthermore your argument about not heating up water to such a high temperature is I'm afraid incorrect. Lime will deposit on any surface at any temeperature. Any householder with a hard water supply will unhappilly confirm this, look at the wc pan in such a house, look inside the cistern for such a toilet, better still look at the cold water storage tank in the attic. Even a new tank after just a few years service will have a small layer of lime scale visible as sediment in the bottom of the tank and a visible tide mark at the water line. Sure, heating the water to high temperatures exacerbates the problem but if the lime is there it will deposit itself on your household fixtures and fittings, regardless of temeperature. The cost of a softener system (say €1000 max, incl. installation and bypass arrangement) and it's running costs (€7.50 for a 25 kilo bag) will easily repay itself over time by extending the useful life of appliances, reduction in the use of detergents and a consequent reduction in the use of the electricity required to run most of these appliances. There is no argument here I'm afraid, most people given the option would opt for soft water, each and every time. The economic and environmental implications of a hard water supply are considerable when all is taken into account. Your comment regarding the corrosive effect of a softened water supply on metallic pipes is interesting. Years ago when lead pipe was used for watermains and feed pipes this would have been a major concern, but not anymore. Most public water mains are now PVC, Class C with individual mains feeds to each house being HDPE and are resistant to any chemical attack. Most plumbing with the modern house tends to be plastic and whatever copper there is will be unaffected by a soft water supply. The sacrificial anode will protect the pipwork for the hot water ("more aggressive")supply in any case. There were problems in the past (1970s building boom) where a cheaper, poor quality copper pipe was used in this country, to the detriment of everybody. Good quality, stamped copper pipework would be expected to last 60 years or more. Your other comment about drinking softened water from taps other than the kitchen tap is hardly a serious point. The only creature to drink (softened) water from the toilet is usually the family cat or dog on a hot day! American fridges should only be plumbed using an unsoftened supply. I would never drink water from any source other than the main kitchen tap and I think that people with special needs or children would do likewise, in any case softened water will not kill, but water from a dirty/ tepid cold water storage tank might give your stomach a little shock. Your contention for a mains pressure closed system is interesting, both systems have flaws and merits. However an mains fed system is dependant on good mains pressure, which can be variable, depending on location. I see nothing wrong with a good, well designed, well installed open vented system. Any system is only as good as its constituent components and the level of maintenance it receives. Your comment regarding horses, oats etc is frankly ........humorous! however while we can dispense with those 19th century accoutrements we cannot rely on our plumbing systems (indeed any part of our house/ car other consumer items) to be maintenance free. Most people do not concern themselves with the location of their water storage tanks, valves etc. until there's a problem. In fact Homebond have produced a small informative guide for new homebuyers which goes some way to address this issue. That's my two cents worth for now.


----------



## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Thanks , Carpenter , for following up my long posts. We could write books about the issue , they are badly needed .

My question to you : What happens to the Sodiumchloride in the dehardening plant ? Where does it end up? The normal consumption of sodium chloride in an ordinary house hold is around 200 g per month ( just guess work on my side ). Or 2.5 Kg per year . Increasing that amount by 100 times is certainly having an effect on any sewage bacteria life.Sweet water would be turned into salt water.

And than seeping into the ground.

Most people don't know that the main kitchen tap is the only source for drinking water . And most plumbers don't either . The EU -and the WHO - regulations state that drinking water taps must not be made to be confused with dirt/grey water taps. That means  taps releasing water  not fit for human consumption must be clearly marked as such. By design and by colour and by technical features of the taps. As well as the pipes .All pipes running water not fit for human consumption must be clearly identifyable.

This is never adhered to here in Ireland and in GB neither. But on the continent they stick to these rules . Are the plumbers to stupid ? Or is it the consumer who doesn't want to know ? Or is it the health board looking for a job ?

About the inhibitor : Cast metals don't rust. The priest does not polish the  bells to remove the rust (smiley) . Cast metals are the aluminia heat exchangers and the brass manifolds and the brass junktions and bends . And  most pumps. So the inhibitor realy is only necessary with cheap radiators in connection with cheap boilers. Which are heavy on the wallet due to their high energy consumption .And their short life time .

A pressurised heating system is simply more efficient than a vented system .Pumped pressurised water is   transporting  more heat/energy than non-pressurised water. 

And running it on low temperature is making any inhibitors useless.

About the lime depositing effect of hot water : Maybe you mixed up the depositing of lime with the depositing of manganese and iron. This would happen in cold water as well. Not so the lime . The lime is kept in the water by the aid of carbondioxide which disolves it at source , in the ground rocks . Carbondioxide has an acetic effect on lime. But as in a lemonade bottle : As soon as the pressure is gone the CO2 is released . In warm water even faster . And that causes the formerly dissolved lime to fall out.

When you check the hot springs around our globe -be it Turkey , Iceland or the Yellowstone - you will see heavy deposits building up downstream and around the well itself. Not so in natural wells that are cold . These cold wells are actually eating away the surrounding rock ( due to the etching effect of the carbondioxide ) and therby creating crevices and valleys.

I hope that  Marion will forgive us for using this post as a plumbers mailbox .


----------



## Carpenter

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Good Morning Heinbloed,
I think we'll have to agree to disagree.  not sure about your point regarding carbon dioxide etc surely there is no (or very little ) CO2 in the plumbing system.  BUT I still contend that no  amount of salt water (to a point obviously) will create as much problems for the anaerobic organisms in a septic tank/ reed bed as will more detergents.  Harder water means more detergent use and use of harsh acid descalers to remove it which invariably end up being flushed down the drain.  I think I'd rather have salt seeping into the ground as leachate from a treatment tank than phosphates, ammonia etc.

Your point about cast metals is debatable, only iron based alloys can rust, but all metals (to a greater or lesser degree) can oxidise and corrode over time.  Some metals resist oxidisation very well others not so.  Most radiators supplied for housing in this country (and probably most commercial buildings also) are of the pressed and folded steel sheet variety, your VEHA, Kingspan, Myson etc.  All are prone to rust if the right conditions prevail.

Aluminium alloys can corrode, especially in the presence of harsh fluxes commonly used in brazing and soldering operations by the plumber, which is why they should be removed by flushing through any installation after completion.  Cast iron can also corrode in the presence of moisture and oxygen.  It is moderately resistant to corrosion compared to say mild steel but not impervious.  I think the inhibitor plays an inportant role where a combination of brass, aluminium, copper and steel (or cast iron) are used together in a wet system- it can prevent galvanic action, the wet battery effect.  This can and does happen, brass fitings in particular are prone to dezincification, which is why most manufacturers produce a range or dezincification resistant fittings, usually stamped CR or Corrosion Resistant.

The debate of pressurised versus open vented systems rages on.  Most punters are not interested in the efficiencies or perceived benefits of a pressurised system versus an open vented arrangement.  Most homeowners ( I don't like to generalise but I can't see otherwise) are more interested in the merits of solid oak versus laminate, pvc woodgrain versus white etc etc.  As europeans we have a long way to go regarding our appreciation of our impact on the environment through wasteful use of energy and resources.  For my part I'd be happy to see more householders install a well designed, open vented heating and plumbing system, with good controls, well insulated and maintained.

It's been an enjoyable discourse.


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## z102

*Re: Conversion to gas central heating*

Hi Carpenter !

I know from my time in school that all house hold detergents must break down by 98 % within 4 days of release into the environment , into the treatment plant .That is the internationall standard , some bottles even say so on the label . So from 1 liter of detergent only 20 gramms max. are allowed to stay intact. These 2 % would be , in most cases , sodiumchloride .The amount of non- breaking -down substances (sodiumchloride) is limited to 2 % to protect the goodies in the sewage plant , reed bed , septic tank . The former two work aerobic b.t.w..
I have to insist on the fact that releasing salt in excess is killing all germs . Salt is a preservative . It kills . Bacterias and other micro organisms as well . Releasing salt bagwise into a septic tank will destroy not only the cleaning effect but in the long time the steel reinforced concrete as well. Our septic tanks are not designed to take salt water. My reed bed isn't either . And the salt will destroy the ground water.
I know that salt used for deicing plane runways -like in Dublin or in Shannon -causes severe problems . Even when used in tiny amounts/percentages over the year.Trees get killed in their thousands every year along the road because of salt . 
Acid , used to dissolve lime deposits , in turn is harmless for the goodies in the sewage treatment plant . Right , it could demage the concrete of the septic tank . But in the standard dossage it actually benefits the sewage plant . I did a presentation at school about the issue, visited a sewage treatment plant to get first hand information . The people there insisted that they can handle acid very well, it will break down in the plant , that it will make their job easier because of it's neutralising effect on the alkaline sewage. To me as some one who had seen the warning symbols on acid containers that was amazing , but they where right of course.
So using now and then some cheap acid like acetic acid or sulfuric acid or hydrochloric acid to clean lime deposits is no problem at all. But using salt in a permanent dosing is dangerous to the environment . And expensive .
For as little as € 2.50 or so you could buy a small flask of dilluted sulfuric acid 
in Lidl . Made from recycled sulfur from a desulfurisation stack in a power plant . So good for the environment in two ways . And no extra installment costs . And the water from the pipe stays drinkable . Cheap, efficient .
Phosphate is b.t.w. phased out as a detergent ingredient . At the moment you won't find more than 5 % in any house hold detergent and the amount still going down . Most manufacturers are already producing phosphate free detergents . Some use no phosphate at all any more.
Modern pressurised shower heads have silicone jets . These are self cleaning .
But of course that is of no use to some one who has an antique bucket- on- the-roof system . 
The white deposits at the tank in the attic could as well be the result of traetment of the water suply . Aluminia is added to our public water to make it look nice . As well as flouride . And chlorine . The combination of to many chemicals can cause a fall out as well . Especially if the conditions of the water changes . From pressurised/cold to open/warm . From the pipe to the tank . Adding salt is just another nail to the coffin .
And the cast metall: We find cannons made from cast brass hundreds of years old in salt water in 20 feet depths on corall reefs . Intact . The labels ( smiley ) still on . Exposed to corrosive sodium - a metall - for a few hundred years . We also have some canons exposed here in Cork, made from casted iron . They are still intact . And hundreds of years old .And so on . There are many proofen examples that cast metall does not rust easy.
Of course, a cheap Firebird boiler tank won't last that long . Let alone beeing exposed to agressive salt water or just only to hot sweet water . Because they are made from cheap steel . Flat rolled steel. Not from casted iron .
Keeping them intact with the aid of rust inhibitor is like fixing a wooden leg to a three leged race horse . It won't make them more efficient , just standing a bit longer . And wasting a bit longer 'till replacement . 
Why are you happy with an inefficient boiler/vented system ? Close the loop and put pressure on it . Around 1.2 bar it should withstand in any case .
Ask your wife - or any one running a house hold : a pressurised cooker is much more efficient than a non pressurised , a lid on the pot safes money.


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## shoegal

*Re: >>Central Heating*

Hello Folks,

This is a heating related query but there may be a more suitable place for it, sorry if I'm out of line here.

I will be starting a new house build shortly and an engineer has suggested going with a Wood Pellet Boiler to heat the house instead of a standard oil fired boiler. He recommended this due to Oil Costs, fossil fuels running out and emissions. I had heard of this but know no one with any experience of these boilers. The engineer himself only knew of one case of it but asked me to research and consider it. I've looked at the Irish Sustainable Energy page and it seems to me that the outlay for the boiler is very expensive (in comparison to an oil one) while the pellets are not so bad and it sounds like the system might work well. Does anyone have any experience of wood pellet boilers? and also how much did the system cost?


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## Sue Ellen

*Re: >>Central Heating*

Hi Shoegal,

Sorry I'm not as knowlegeable as Heinbloed on these matters but just wondering if the key post on Wood Burning Stoves from AAM Homes and Gardens Key Posts is relevant?


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## shoegal

*Re: >>Central Heating*

Hi Sueellen,

Thank you for your reply, yep, the stoves are interesting but what I'm looking for info on is a boiler that would heat the whole house (rads, water etc) as opposed to just a stove in a room.


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## z102

*Re: >>pellet boilers*

The boilers might be good , many are using them abroad. But hardly without subsidies .The storage of the pellets are another problem . Since the moisture content shouldn't be higher as 10 % . Any sort of cellulose stored in Ireland soon adapts to the eminent 18 - 20 % moisture and than you have the problem of using more fuel as anticipated .

Reason : Wet fuel does not give the same caloric value as dry fuel . Energy in the burning process  is needed to a.) dry the cellulose and b.) to ignite it and c.) to blow the carbon dioxide up the chimney . If the smoke is to cold it will either ruin the chimney ( acetic sooth ) or it will not rise at all . And making your boiler a smoker suitable to smoke salmon or ham in the house. 

So storing the fuel in a quantity large enough to bring you through a heating season is a problem . You need a dry room . And this room has to be heated as well . Otherwise you will have the moisture penetrating it and your pellets will start to rot before they are burnt . And heating a storage space for the fuel ( we are talking about several cubic meters ) is expensive . You have to insulate it . You need in practical terms another room added to your house .Heated, ventilated , serviced with electricity – and insured . 

This cost causing problem is never highlighted by the sellers of this product here . ( Rhetorically asking : is your engineer in the business, how many percentages does she/he get - or is he/she just performing an " environmentally concerned " show ?)      If your engineer is his money worth he should have told you about the entire costs . Abroad , in Austria , Switzerland, Germany , The Netherlands and all the Scandinavian countries no one would install these things with out the necessary price levelers ( so called subsidies ) to get rid of that financial problem . These subsidies are necessary to make these things economical.

And in the broader economical and political concept these subsidies  are wasted money : Instead of taxing the fossil fuels according to the costs they cause additional costs are put on the back of the tax payers .   

In northern countries where they use central heating boilers running on cellulose - be it timber logs/chips/pellets/peat - they have DRY winters ." Dry" means that you can dry your clothes outside .  We don't have anything like that around Ireland or GB . 

So my advice is to stay away from cellulose as a fuel in Ireland. It would burn, yes, but neither economical nor ecological . It would produce PAC's due to the moisture and plenty of fine dust particles due to the ash and sooth  it blows out.

The latter is a general problem for all humane settlements , esp. nowadays with more and more people having breathing problems and becoming aware of the reasons.

Ask your engineer about the heating demand of the planned house . Insulation is the key of economic heating . If she/he is not able to present  a fuel/heating cost comparison  sheet than he is not able to plan the home you want.

In this sheet ALL alternatives must be shown . And the future developments must be taken into consideration - fuel prices as well as environmental standards . There are simple mathematic formulas available to the trade interested in the issue giving a tool to say  " it will cost that much considering a price change ( inflation )  in that many years to come " . This has to be compared with the alternatives . In writing , words have no come back.

Check the SEI homepage for fuel comparison sheets . They are very slow there but it will give you a hint . And compare the results with the numbers from your engineer .


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## z102

*Re: >>Central Heating*

PS.: 
I did not put in any practical advice exept for the insulation : When going for a central heating system go for one that demands low running temperatures . That would be a floor heating system in combination ( or without ) a wall heating system . The larger the radiant surface the lower ( the more economical/ecological !) the running (flow temperature) can be .


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## shoegal

*Re: >>Central Heating*

Thanks Heinbloed, that is invaluable information. I believe the engineer genuinely suggested the wood pellet system from an "environmentally friendly" point of view but I wouldn't say he has much expertise in the area. He certainly didn't point out about the conditions for storing the pellets - which seems like a pretty crucial piece of information! but I am still at the research stage of this, I understand insulation is very important and will try to do my best there. I will also keep the radiant surface point in mind - makes sense. Thanks again.


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## npgallag

*Re: >>Central Heating*

with regards to the Gas condensing combi boiler.. has anyone actual experience of it and the costs...? Building timber frame at the moment and am installing duel fuel heating system...Stove with back boiler and oil or gas boiler....just cant decide on which , even after reading all the posts here. I notice from heatmerchants that the gas type is roughly twice the priceof the oil type and just wondereing if worth the extra..??


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## OhPinchy

*Re: >>Central Heating*

I need to get a new gas boiler and am considering getting a condensing gas boiler (not a combi boilet).

I need an 80,000 BTU (23.5kW) boiler. The prices I have found on the web are fairly high and the plumbing suppliers generally indicate that they are expensive - though I have seen them at decent prices in UK web sites I can't get one delivered here.

I have a mate in a plumbing suppliers who gives me good prices but he is on holidays and I need it asap so the lads in the shop won't be giving me as good a price as he would. 

They laughed at the idea of a condensing boiler, saying they were double the price and only gave me a quote for a normal gas system boiler.

I need a 80,000 BTU boiler but they only have 70,000 (€750 inc VAT) or 100,000 BTU (€910 inc VAT). Plumber says to go with the 100,000 BTU to be sure but I have read they are less efficient. Anyone got any ideas on what I should go for, are these good prices, and what to pay for a 25kW condensing gas boiler?

Thanks


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## z102

*Re: >>Central Heating*

To Npgallag :
When going for combustion to create heating energy at home the condensing boiler is the most economical method . Technical details speak for it : since there is no need for a chimney (and no cleaning of it) you safe thousands of building costs . Putting holes into your roof for several chimneys don't add to the value of your home- it decreases the ( market ) value of it with the introduction of the energy pass. More holes = more leaks , more energy loss.
Stoves rob you of energy when not in use , the permanent draft caused by the chimneys " steal " energy. Stoves are no boilers , central heating is the modern way of life . So when thinking about a home for the elderly - you will get old as well - a stove is a bad buy . Think about shoveling coal and chopping timber when bound to a wheelchair.
When buing trash boilers you pay what you get . Check the www.sedbuk.com page to see what energy rating the recommended boilers have . Are they rubbish that can't be sold somewhere else and therefore end up in the Irish market ? 
Energy savings must be included in the calculations of heatmerchants . Otherwise they don't know what they are talking about .Or they are looking for a prey.


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## z102

*Re: >>Central Heating*

To OhPinchy :
You need a modulating combi condensing boiler. No matter if it costs a thousand extra. Amortisation will be short with todays fuel prices. 
Since these guys at heatmerchants as you have described them haven't got a clue about bussiness ( they can't sell, they can't calculate ) you should look out for an other dealer as well.
And get a propper heat demand calculation for the premises to be heated. On what is this number ( 23.5 kW ) based ? 
Check http://www.sedbuk.com to see if they tried to sell you an obsolete banger .


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## ITGuy

Hi, has anyone looked at this



 I am considering getting this installed for existing gas fire central heating system for the house.
 Only need to add controller, interface unit and TRVs - lots of TRVs.
 Looks like an excellent idea.

 Just curious whether anyone has tried this already?


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## glic

Hi.
I've just viewed a property where the only source of heat in the house is a gas fire place in the kitchen. Does this mean there's also a gas boiler in the house, don't remember seeing one? Any ideas how much it would cost to update the heating system and install radiators in five rooms? The real estate agent was pretty clueless, but i'd imagine that if there's already a gas main-line going into the house that it wouldn't be too much of a job to install radiators and whatever else is needed for a comprehensive heating system. Any pertinent questions I should ask the Real estate agent if I consider buying this property? 
Thanks in advance for any help.


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## Marion

I have decided to get the gas (Ferroli - 12 litres per minute) combi-modulating boiler.

Should I opt for 2 power showers or should I keep one electric shower? The plumber has suggested that I keep one electric shower.

 I have 2 electric showers at the moment. I would prefer 2 power showers. In the main, there is only demand for one shower each morning.

Marion


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## z102

If it's a combi boiler you'll need no power showers, just a hot and cold water connection and a mixing shower tap.Lidl has them now and then for around €20 each. I recommend adjustable shower heads, the ones that have a massage jet. With the better ones (again Lidl for €8 each, but also Argos for around €10) you'll have a water saving feature, that means you could-when using both showers simultanously- switch to the saving modus if the water would be on the short supply. That saves on energy as well. I use one of them myself, the pressure/jet on the saving modus is so strong that it would hurt in the eye. Exellent to clean the shower cabin, like a power washer. If one doesn't hold the handle it would "fly" away.


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## Marion

> you'll have a water saving feature, that means you could-when using both showers simultanously- switch to the saving modus if the water would be on the short supply



That's good news. Thanks again Heinbloed. 

Marion


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## mike02101973

Hi I've just bought a cottage style house with an attic conversion,
I've decided to convert from oil to gas and am interested in the combi boiler...

At present a water tank is in one of the upstairs bedrooms and the overflow pipe is directed into the room, if i install combi boiler can i get rid of the water tank?, A builder and plumber have both suggested to move the tank outside onto an adjoining flatroof extension, which means building an insulated hut and plumbing pipes down through the roof. I would wish to avoid having to do this if at all possible.

I can see how the combi makes the hotpress obsolete, but am a little less clear on how it would make the water tank obsolete, perhaps someone could shed some light on this,

thanks


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## Sue Ellen

Hi Mike,

Welcome to AAM.

Sorry I can't answer the main part of your question but hope that others here can do so.

This previous AAM thread on combi boilers and lack of water tank might help.

Some other previous threads here on combi boilers.


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## badabing

Marion
To follow on from Heinbold's post If your incoming pressure is not high enough you will need to boost the water pressure with a booster pump. You would put this at the inlet to the Ferolli boiler The cold tee's off to the cold water tap at the showers. Don't waste time with power showers


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## z102

Check the water pressure at the main water pipe coming to your home. Any combi boiler connected to a tap needs a certain pressure, usualy more then 1.2 bar. So if you want to connect a tap at the attic in a two storey house then the resistance to the height of the tap has to be considered. Or more easy explained: Pressure at the mains on the road is 2 bar, planned out let (tap) at attic (let's say at 7 meters height) minus 0.7 bar. That gives us 2 bar minus 0.7 bar = 1.3 bar. You're within the range of a standard combi boiler.
If your next tap to the boiler is below the boiler position (in your case the attic) then this position is to be included in the calculation. Let's say your boiler is in the attic but your nearest tap/valve is in the shower at the first floor 5 meters above the mains then the calculation looks like this: pressure at the mains 2 bar minus 0.5 bar = 1.5 bar. You're within the range again.
Check the min. pressure for each combi boiler (data sheet), they can differ from manufacturer to manufacturer, from model to model. Extreme long pipes will also cause friction of the flow which must be subtracted,so connect a pipe/garden hose provisional from the mains to the attic and meassure the pressure there.
Choose a pipe diameter as wide as possible going from the mains to the boiler, but not wider then the main's diameter.  
If your plumber doesn't want to do that - sack him, he/she's incompetent.Talk to the boiler manufacturer to get a real plumber from your area to do the job.
Data for different types of boilers and their efficiency can be got from the Sedbuk page.


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## badabing

1.2 bar is a bit low for me..2 bar much nicer for peeling of the mud after a good game of footie..


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## mike02101973

thanks for pointing me in the right direction sueellen, these threads have been a great help...

websites like this are such an invaluable resource to the uninitiated... long may they last


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## Marion

Hi Badabing

The local Co Co measured the pressure again today (last time I checked was months ago) and it read 2.5 bar or 37 psi. This was taken from my outside tap which is the mains tap at the kitchen sink wall. So I presume this would have given the same reading if it had been taken at the actual kitchen tap?

Marion


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## z102

I'm answering that for Badabing: Yes, with some very little subtraction.
The longer the pipe is and the more bends/joints there are the smaller the reading will get. But in the standard Irish home it will hardly be meassureable between the outside tap and the kitchen tap unless using  sophisticated, fine tuned meassuring equipment.


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## Roo

Hi, does anyone have a recent price for installing gas central heating into a 3 bed house in dublin, including any bord gais costs to actully bring the gas into the house - their website states €220 which seems extremely cheap.  Thinking of making an offer on a property but there are only 3 storage heaters in it at the moment - all downstairs, and storage heating is not for me.  We want to take all 'must do' costs into account before we make an offer.


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## plumbtastic

im installing a wood/coal stove as the only heating supply. will it work the same way as a back boiler, with pipe stat and pump?
any information would be much appreciated?


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## carrotcake

Hello, I am looking for some advice please! I am starting to build my home in July and while I had originally planned to go with Geothermal as my source of heating, my budget can not now afford this, so the option I am thinking of is radiators. My builder has suggested a stove for the downstairs kitchen cum dining room cum sitting room (more or less open plan and south facing) to heat that whole area and radiators with oil condensing boiler for rest of house. It would be great if anyone on the site here could recommend if this is a good option. He also suggested I look into aluminium radiators as they use much less water to heat up and are more energy efficient though more expensive at the outset to purchase. I would really appreciate if someone could tell me if I am going the right direction before I start researching this in earnest! I forgot to say that I hope to put some solar panels on roof as well to heat the water. 
With all the talk in the media about rising oil prices etc., I am very conscious of having a heating system that is very energy efficient and uses the minimum of oil. There is no gas in my area and I don't intend putting up wind turbine and I haven't heard very positive reports about wood pellet systems, so are radiators (either conventional or aluminium) with oil condensing boiler the very best way to go?. Thanks very much for our help. carrotcake


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## DavyJones

Condensing boilers are very efficient, about 98% of energy created is used compared to about 65% to 75% for standard boilers. They also come in LPG versions, you could have a tank of gas (calor etc) as compared to oil.
It may be worth getting a stove with a back boiler to atleast heat the water in the cylinder when its lit. You could get a stove with a bigger back boiler to heat the rads also along with the oil/gas. you would then have two options for fuel, coal/wood and oil/gas.


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## carrotcake

Thanks very much for that information.


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## kerry22

With home energy bills going through the roof we were thinking of replacing our 12 year old Firebird 90/120 oil boiler with one of the new  Condenser type Oil Boilers plus solar panels for domestic hot water. Is this the best option and where would someone get the most cost efficient combi oil-solar products. Is there a smart controller one can get to optimise the output and efficiency of both. Any suggestions?


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## kerry22

With home energy bills going through the roof we were thinking about replacing our 12 year old Firebird 90/120 oil boiler with one of the new Condenser boilers and also installing solar panels for domestic hot water. Is this the most cost-effective option. Which combi models / products are giving the best returns in terms of energy savings and costs and where can they be purchased. Any suggestions?


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## gary71

Have a look at the sedbuk list at http://www.sedbuk.com, this will let you know which boilers are most efficient, Gary.


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## DGOBS

Maybe worth consulting some qualified in home energy rating & design before making any decisions, alot of times insulation should be the first consideration, then move onto heat sources, such as condensers, sloar etc, and heating / hw control should also be considered, ie. zoning the house into different heating requirements (bedrooms / living / hw) and have them each timed and with seperate room & cyl stats, this means you only heat areas & water when needed (bedrooms off during the daytime etc)


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## mikeyof

Calling Heinbloed,Calling Heinbloed. I am in awe of your heating brilliance.
I have had to take early retirement because I have a serious neurological disorder. I want to leave my family with a safe home which will cost little to run.I am ready to fit out a one and a half height house near athenry which I designed and built myself. The cost of energy terrifies me. I have located suppliers of evacuated tubes in the u.K for domestic water and my roof is 45dg south facing near the top of the highest plateau in county galway though they tell me wind turbines are a waste of money. I am thinking of getting a combined heat and power boiler from somebody like baxi. I hate the thought of paying all my hard won pension to the national state monopoly electricity supplier. apparently when released in early 2009 the baxi model will kick out 5ish Kilowats of electrons which I think could take over from my 12volt batteries and invertors during heavy demand, ie. when the kids have all the xbox's and ps2 etc..ramping away.

would dearly like your thoughts. can't find a reference anywhere on how to glean information from the xgrid people in the U.K to find out how they get by without mains electricity but it sounds good to me. many thanks in anticipation......


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## Leo

Hi Mikeof, welcome to AAM. You'll be waiting a long time to hear from Heinbloed here as he has been banned. I believe he lives on in other forums, but there are quite a few informed threads here on these subjects. The concencus is that turbines are too expensive currently, the payback period exceeds the expected lifespan. Look up the threads here on self-building and you'll see insullation is the key element in reducing energy usage.
Leo


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## John Turley

The € 22k investment in a turbine will be viable when the ESB introduce a credits system similar to that in the UK, this should happen shortly. Combine this with electrical underfloor heating and you might make a few quid.
The Baxti system is oil dependant, you might as well plug into the mains.
There are some top class pellet systems, but look for source who will supply, fit commission and guarentee, I would apply the same critior to the solar panels.

Regardless of what system you use invest in insulation, air tightness and HRV


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## carrotcake

Hello, I am considering putting in aluminium radiators (use less water to heat than conventional radiators and my builder tells me they give off 'great' heat). I am wondering if anyone here has any experience of them and would you recommend putting the extra cost towards them rather than the normal conventional radiators. I am at foundation level of a new build and trying to do things right while I am building as this will be my one and only time! Also, I am building near Galway so if anyone has any good experience with aluminium rads and can recommend a company that they were happy with, I'd be so grateful. Thanks


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## Brookner

*Cost of servicing gas boilers*

Would anybody be able to give an example of the Cost of servicing gas boilers and how often you should service you bolier?


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## DGOBS

service costs vary. Around €100 give or take depending on where you located. 

As for how often. Manufacturers recommend at least once a year to check for effeciency and safety

Always use qualified registered service technicians and always insist on a written service report and receipt


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