# Motor Tax Bands



## stuffit

Minister Gormley has announced the new Motor Tax bands that apply from 1/07/2008...


Band A (under 120 grams per km) - €100. 
Band B (121-140 grams per km) - €150. 
Band C (141-155 grams per km) - € 290. 
Band D (156-170 grams per km) - €430. 
Band E (171-190 grams per km) - € 600. 
Band F (191-225 grams per km) - €1,000. 
Band G, the top band - €2,000, reflecting CO2 emissions of over 225grams per km


Is thare any site where I can look up my car's emmissions (Rover 75) ??

I've tried , but it only seems to list new cars.



Ste


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## Marble

Try here, its a UK site but has pretty much all cars old and new.

[broken link removed]


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## efm

stuffit said:


> Minister Gormley has announced the new Motor Tax bands that apply from 1/07/2008...


 
Em...isn't that VRT rate bands and not motor tax?  Motor tax will still be based on engine size no?


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## Nige

No, the motor tax system is changing too, but for new cars initially.


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## Marble

There were two announcements.

One relates to VRT changes based on on emissions for new car sales and the other announcement relates to changes in actual annual motor tax for all cars based on CO2 emissions to commence July of next year.

We'll see a lot of the large MPV (Range Rover, X5, Land Cruiser) owners facing a €2000 per year motor tax.....polluter pays finally!


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## gipimann

Hits smaller cars too - my Terios 1.5l petrol falls into band E, so if I buy new in 2009 I face double what I pay in road tax now.

A terios looks like a jeep, but it isn't!!


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## efm

Ahh...I didn't know the details of Minister Green's announcement - does anyone have a link to the specifics of the scheme?  Is this new motor tax regime instead of the existing motor tax payment or in addition to it?


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## Marble

The revised tax is based on CO2 emissions and not on the shape of the vechicle. The Terios emissions are 186g CO2/km which means that you are in Band E (171-190 grams per km) - € 600.   

This is actually pretty high for a 1.5l engine ( I run a 2 litre direct injection turbo car and my emissions are similar to that!) 

It indicates that the additional weight required to have the terios looking like an MPV actually causes additional impact on pollutant emissions.


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## gipimann

Perhaps I'd better sell the Terios now - nobody will want to buy it if the tax is €600 per year!!


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## AlastairSC

Marble said:


> Try here, its a UK site but has pretty much all cars old and new.
> 
> [broken link removed]


 

Alas, it doesn't have my old Volvo. Anyone know where I could look?


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## Humdinger

Nige said:


> No, the motor tax system is changing too, but for new cars initially.


 
Thinking post July 1 2008, does that mean that existing cars and those bought before July 1 next year, will continue to pay car tax under the current engine size scheme adjusted for the  + 9%/11% changes announced yesterday.


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## Marble

What Volvo do you drive? Model and engine size?


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## polaris

So motor tax bands for *all cars *are changing next July?

Many family cars have relatively high emmisions putting them into Bands E & F resulting in a motor tax of €600 - €1000. 
People who have bought such cars over the past few years intending to drive them for the foreseeable future are not going to be happy.


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## IrlJidel

polaris said:


> So motor tax bands for *all cars *are changing next July?



Only newly registered cars.

see rte site

"The Minister said these new car tax rates will apply only  to new cars and to cars being registered for the first time in the Republic.
 Existing cars will continue to be taxed on the present system, which is based on engine sizes"


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## WhatsGoingOn

It will definitely increase sales of Diesel cars.
My 1.9L Turbo Diesel is in band B. Under the current system (with new 9.5% rise) I pay nearly €600, under the new system it will be only €150.


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## polaris

IrlJidel said:


> Only newly registered cars.
> 
> see rte site
> 
> "The Minister said these new car tax rates will apply only to new cars and to cars being registered for the first time in the Republic.
> Existing cars will continue to be taxed on the present system, which is based on engine sizes"


 

Thanks for the clarification. This seems fair enough.


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## muffinsda

lads, don't panic (like I did!!!): 

"The Minister said these new car tax rates will apply only  to new cars and to cars being registered for the first time in the Republic."

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/1206/budget2.html


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## OtherMe

WhatsGoingOn said:


> It will definitely increase sales of Diesel cars.
> My 1.9L Turbo Diesel is in band B. Under the current system (with new 9.5% rise) I pay nearly €600, under the new system it will be only €150.


 
Stinger.  You'll still have to pay nearly €600 as the new system only applies to new cars.


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## Mr2

WhatsGoingOn,  I may have read the above wrong but from what I see, unless you change your car your Tax will be the €600 + 9.5%.

I'd say the increase will be in small dsl engines and small petrol engines with the bigger BHP. V.W. have a 1.4 petrol engine  putting out 170bhp, that will suit the people that want the power with smaller costs.


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## chum

will older jeeps have greater resale value because they have lower road tax?


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## OtherMe

chum said:


> will older jeeps have greater resale value because they have lower road tax?


 
Or does change of ownership put you on the new system?


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## dereko1969

the question i'd like answered and i'm sure it won't be is what happens if you buy a new diesel car yet run the car on biodiesel? presumably the excise exemption for biodiesel will continue but you're paying motor tax based on the presumption that you will use 'normal' diesel even though you'll use non-carbon products to power your vehicle. it's the opposite of polluter pays. the fairest system would be to just increase substantially the excise on petrol and diesel.


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## muffinsda

dereko1969 said:


> the fairest system would be to just increase substantially the excise on petrol and diesel.



Absolutely agree. Simple and common sense, don't know why they don't do it that way... probably because it wouldn't have made hardcore rich-hating elements in green party happy  (j/k)


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## Niallymac

I nearly pooped myself when I saw this and then spent a half hour finding out the emissions on the 2 family cars

3 yrs old Astra 1.8 auto - would have been €1000 (now €480)
5 yrs old Zafira 1.8 auto - would have been €1000 (now €480)

While I appreciate the spirit in which this carbon tax is being intorduced, one has to question something like a 1.8 auto Zafira costing €1000 to tax annually. Thats a standard family car, and something of a necessity in our house with a large young family. In fact, this tax is fundamentally anti family, as is the pay by weight bin charge, both of which discriminate against people with large families ( and before you greens all jump on me, I know...polluter pays etc....)

All I can say is, thank Jaysus it only applies to new cars, otherwise I'd be in be in even more doodoo than I'm already in.


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## muffinsda

Niallymac said:


> I nearly pooped myself when I saw this and then spent a half hour finding out the emissions on the 2 family cars


Same! My 2.0L Saab would've fallen in €2000 per annum band!!!!
How do we know they don't apply it to older car in future?

Any why is it gradual and then suddenly steps up!??! i.e. shouldn't be difference between 225g/km and 500g/km? It just doesn't make sense!


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## Firefly

WhatsGoingOn said:


> It will definitely increase sales of Diesel cars.
> My 1.9L Turbo Diesel is in band B. Under the current system (with new 9.5% rise) I pay nearly €600, under the new system it will be only €150.


 
A move to boost the coffers in the latter half of 2008 perhaps...get lots of people buying new diesels....


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## Nige

Niallymac said:


> Thats a standard family car, and something of a necessity in our house with a large young family. In fact, this tax is fundamentally anti family,


 
Is it?

I don't know anything about the emission levels of cars (only looked into the emissions on my own car yesterday, after the budget). But is it possible to get similar family cars with much lower emission levels?


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## greenfield

FYI www.simi.ie under "environment" has information on emissions


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## dereko1969

muffinsda said:


> Absolutely agree. Simple and common sense, don't know why they don't do it that way... probably because it wouldn't have made hardcore rich-hating elements in green party happy  (j/k)


the impact on inflation and competitiveness is the reason it hasn't been brought in, i'm sure the AA or SIMI probably have figures that would show that 10c on the litre adds x to the inflation rate.


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## threeticks

efm said:


> Ahh...I didn't know the details of Minister Green's announcement - does anyone have a link to the specifics of the scheme? Is this new motor tax regime instead of the existing motor tax payment or in addition to it?


 
*Moving towards a more CO**2** emissions related motor tax system*

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, in line with a commitment in the Programme for Government, wishes to provide an incentive through the motor tax system for the motoring public to drive cleaner cars. It is proposed to introduce a system under which C02 emission ratings for individual vehicles will, in addition to the normal engine cc value, be used for the calculation of motor tax in respect of any new or pre owned imported vehicle, registered in this country on or after 1 January, 2008, taxed within the ‘Private Car’ motor tax class and at each subsequent taxing.

Cars which are registered prior to 1 January, 2008 will continue to be taxed in accordance with current arrangements and C02 ratings will not apply to these vehicles.


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## Brik

Does anyone know if how often you use the car affects the tax?  I have a 16 year old 3 litre car and while I cant find details on emissions online, I'm sure it will be high.  However, the thing is that I only use the car occassionally (only 2000 miles so far this year) if that is taken into account then great!

Thanks


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## Guest120

Brik said:


> Does anyone know if how often you use the car affects the tax?  I have a 16 year old 3 litre car and while I cant find details on emissions online, I'm sure it will be high.  However, the thing is that I only use the car occassionally (only 2000 miles so far this year) if that is taken into account then great!
> 
> Thanks



Amount of usage is irrelevant.


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## threeticks

Brik said:


> Does anyone know if how often you use the car affects the tax? I have a 16 year old 3 litre car and while I cant find details on emissions online, I'm sure it will be high. However, the thing is that I only use the car occassionally (only 2000 miles so far this year) if that is taken into account then great!
> 
> Thanks


The new system will not apply to cars reg before jan 08..
My reading of it would be that your tax will go up 11%


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## gipimann

Two posters above have mentioned January 08 as the date from which the new emission-based car tax begins for newly registered cars.  However, on the RTE report (linked earlier in the thread) and elsewhere, it's not being implemented until July 08.


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## Lemming

What is the rationale for not applying the new annual taxation rate to existing cars from next July 1st? When we were buying a car in 2005 we chose an Octavia 1.9TDi on the basis of its C02 emissions, 140 g/km. It was reasonable to expect that Ireland would eventually realise about global warming and follow the UK system. Since then we have paid €511 per year in expectation that we would be paying less when the govt greened-up a bit. Now instead of paying €150 from next July on, it seems that we will have to pay €560. Are there plans for a phased application of the new tax to existing cars over future years?


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## djkat

hi everyone

Im importing a rover mini cooper from japan and its on the the high seas now and will arrive on the 27th dec, i have tried to get to co2 rate on the site above but said its not available, does anyone know what i will pay, it is a 1275 engine 1995 manual trans


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## Mr Magoo

djkat said:


> hi everyone
> 
> Im importing a rover mini cooper from japan and its on the the high seas now and will arrive on the 27th dec, i have tried to get to co2 rate on the site above but said its not available, does anyone know what i will pay, it is a 1275 engine 1995 manual trans



the co2 emmisions will only be used for cars purchased after jul 08? you should probably tax it asap


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## Mr Magoo

Lemming said:


> What is the rationale for not applying the new annual taxation rate to existing cars from next July 1st?



they can't influence decisions people have already made, so the hope is the new regulations will influence people's behavious for future car purchases.


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## threeticks

gipimann said:


> Two posters above have mentioned January 08 as the date from which the new emission-based car tax begins for newly registered cars. However, on the RTE report (linked earlier in the thread) and elsewhere, it's not being implemented until July 08.


 
It would seem that the info is from the budget departments web page.
Under the budget 2007 documents listed it shows details of the *proposed* change in road tax.
This was in fact published in dec 2006.

http://www.budget.gov.ie/2007/default.html

The actual changes are not as clear in the 2007 documents which will come into force in 2008.
http://www.budget.gov.ie/


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## briancbyrne

IrlJidel said:


> Only newly registered cars.
> 
> see rte site
> 
> "The Minister said these new car tax rates will apply only to new cars and to cars being registered for the first time in the Republic.
> Existing cars will continue to be taxed on the present system, which is based on engine sizes"


 
is this cars bought from july or those bought from here on in?


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## paddyd

it only applies to cars bought (or imported) from July.

according to Gormley, it was a logistics night-mare to apply it to 2nd hand cars, as only those form the past 2 years have the CO2 certs seemingly.

In addition, they couldn't apply it immediately (or from Jan 1st), as most of the Jan/Feb cars are already booked, so it wouldn't give the consumer any choice (i.e. if they'd already bought a bigger petrol car for Jan delivery)

I like the look of the 320d or s40 diesel now in the €290 tax band. They were in the €600. (the only problem is that they are diesels )


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## Joleen

Lemming said:


> What is the rationale for not applying the new annual taxation rate to existing cars from next July 1st? When we were buying a car in 2005 we chose an Octavia 1.9TDi on the basis of its C02 emissions, 140 g/km. It was reasonable to expect that Ireland would eventually realise about global warming and follow the UK system. Since then we have paid €511 per year in expectation that we would be paying less when the govt greened-up a bit. Now instead of paying €150 from next July on, it seems that we will have to pay €560. Are there plans for a phased application of the new tax to existing cars over future years?


 
I find myself in the same situation but I only bought the car 7 months ago. If I had of waited until this year I would be paying the lower tax. Does anyone else think that this is very unfair?????


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## demoivre

The existing motor tax system is inequitable in that someone with a 2l car doing 10k miles per year pays the same motor tax as a sales rep. doing 60k miles per year in a car with the same 2l engine. The proposed new system doesn't change that so it gets the thumbs down from me. Anyone know if there are low co2 emission motors that can *belt up* six people or are larger families further penalised with the new motor tax sysyem?


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## Lemming

paddyd said:


> according to Gormley, it was a logistics night-mare to apply it to 2nd hand cars, as only those form the past 2 years have the CO2 certs seemingly.


 
This is a red-herring, or in tribunal speak, an untruth. The UK have had CO2 based emissions car tax since April 2002 and the necessary certs exist. Ireland has the same car fleet as them. The reality is that it would have been a political nightmare in the department of the environment to introduce and he decided not to incur the wrath of long-standing civil servants.


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## shnaek

I believe, and I may well get shot down for this, that this is a combination of a revenue booster for government, and a face saver for the greens. The greens want to look like they are getting some policies implemented, and the government are happy with the extra cash.
But in reality it is a red herring. All we are doing is making Ireland more expensive than it already is. If the cost of transport goes up, the cost of living here goes up. But as long as you dress it up in green everyone swallows it - because green is the new religion and it is heresy to speak out against it. 
Now, before I am accused of not caring for the environment, allow me to point out that it is the current government that allowed hundreds of thousands of non green housing to be built over the last decade. Had we introduced stricter regulations at the start, we may be a lot closer to achieving our Kyoto commitments.
Instead this new tax, and the carbon levy on fuel next year, penalises ordinary people and families and really makes very little difference to global carbon emissions when compared to the US and China - and many other countries.


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## bacchus

Joleen said:


> I find myself in the same situation but I only bought the car 7 months ago. If I had of waited until this year I would be paying the lower tax. Does anyone else think that this is very unfair?????


 
No, as my road taxes would have more than doubled. 
My cars are all high on CO2 emissions, but the combine family mileage is about 1000kms per month. So, our absolute CO2 emission is low. 
So i fully agree with Demoivre's post. 


			
				Demoivre said:
			
		

> The existing motor tax system is inequitable in that someone with a 2l car doing 10k miles per year pays the same motor tax as a sales rep. doing 60k miles per year in a car with the same 2l engine.


I believe that road tax should be bundled in the price of petrol. Until then, low poluters will play for heavy poluters.


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## JoeBloggs

Does anyone know if these new tax bands cover both private and commercial vehicles or will commercial vehicles have different rates?


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## gInvestor

I've been looking on the  website and noticed that BMW's have dropped hugely. The CO2 emissions on 2.0 vechiles for the 318 and 320 will drop ~10% in terms of VRT and the Tax for these will fall into  Band C (141-155 grams per km) - € 290. ( down from € 539 ).. 

Thats all assuming that the Irish gov use the emissions rating that the UK use.. Rip of Rep may rise its head..


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## Guest127

Mrs Cu nearly had a heart attack. Suzuki Jimny (1.3) and the new road tax on it is €600. by no means a big vehicle but thanks to this thread I was able to reassure her that she will remain on the old bands. Does effectively mean though that she is more or less stuck with this car until it drops off the road. I changed from a Corolla to a Yaris few months ago and while there is no significant change the new system would have been cheaper for me. swings and roundabouts I suppose.


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## Caveat

cuchulainn said:


> Does effectively mean though that she is more or less stuck with this car until it drops off the road


 
Unless I've misunderstood this system will only apply to new cars so she'll be OK if she buys 2nd hand no?


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## efm

Excellent post by "PaddyFagan" over on boards which summarises the Motor Tax and VRT situation after the Budget and Gormley's "Carbon Budget":

Any car registered in Ireland now or registered before the 1st July 2008* will be subject to the existing VRT and Road Tax schemes, all be it with a 9% increase in Road Tax (for renewals from 1st Feb 2008)
Existing VRT
A1 Cars up to 1,400cc 22.5% of Open Market Selling Price - OMSP
A2 Cars 1,401 to 1,900cc 25% of OMSP
A3 Cars over 1,900cc 30% of OMSP


Existing Road Tax
cc not over 1,000 - now €151, renewing after 1st Feb €165
cc 1,001 to 1,100 - now €227, renewing after 1st Feb €249
cc 1,101 to 1,200 - now €251, renewing after 1st Feb €275
cc 1,201 to 1,300 - now €272, renewing after 1st Feb €298
cc 1,301 to 1,400 - now €292, renewing after 1st Feb €320
cc 1,401 to 1,500 - now €313, renewing after 1st Feb €343
cc 1,501 to 1,600 - now €391, renewing after 1st Feb €428
cc 1,601 to 1,700 - now €414, renewing after 1st Feb €453
cc 1,701 to 1,800 - now €484, renewing after 1st Feb €530
cc 1,801 to 1,900 - now €511, renewing after 1st Feb €560
cc 1,901 to 2,000 - now €539, renewing after 1st Feb €590
cc 2,001 to 2,100 - now €689, renewing after 1st Feb €754
cc 2,101 to 2,200 - now €722, renewing after 1st Feb €791
cc 2,201 to 2,300 - now €755, renewing after 1st Feb €827
cc 2,301 to 2,400 - now €786, renewing after 1st Feb €861
cc 2,401 to 2,500 - now €821, renewing after 1st Feb €899
cc 2,501 to 2,600 - now €961, renewing after 1st Feb €1,067
cc 2,601 to 2,700 - now €999, renewing after 1st Feb €1,109
cc 2,701 to 2,800 - now €1,033, renewing after 1st Feb €1,147
cc 2,801 to 2,900 - now €1,071, renewing after 1st Feb €1,189
cc 2,901 to 3,000 - now €1,109, renewing after 1st Feb €1,231
cc 3,001 or more - now €1,343, renewing after 1st Feb €1,491
Electrical - now €146, renewing after 1st Feb €146

Any car registered in Ireland on or after 1st July 2008* will be subject to the new VRT and Road Tax schemes - both designed to make cars which produce less carbon per km travelled cheaper. (Small Diesel Engines, Hybrids, etc)
New VRT
Band A 0 - 120g 14%
Band B 121 - 140g 16%
Band C 141 - 155g 20%
Band D 156 - 170g 24%
Band E 171 - 190 g 28%
Band F 191 - 225g 32%
Band G 226g and over 36%

New Road Tax
Band A (under 120 grams per km) - €100.
Band B (121-140 grams perkm) - €150.
Band C (141-155 grams per km) - € 290.
Band D (156-170 grams per km) - €430.
Band E (171-190 grams per km) -€ 600.
Band F (191-225 grams per km) - €1,000.
Band G, the top band -€2,000, reflecting CO2 emissions of over 225grams per km.


* This means that new registrations or imports into Ireland after the 1st July 2008 will be subject to the new VRT and Road Tax schemes, in the case of imports this is the case irrespective of the date of orignal registration in the country of origin.


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## werner

OtherMe said:


> Stinger. You'll still have to pay nearly €600 as the new system only applies to new cars.


 
Stinger you are being penalised for driving a low CO2 emmission car!

Take a Ford Mondeo Diesel 115bhp TdCi, 2004 from the pages of the small ads. 

154 grammes per Km. That makes it a Band C or €290 if it was a new car. 

However as its a 2004 car a buyer will continue to pay €560 + 9.5% increase. 

People are being screwed, I wonder will anyone challenge this new rip off.


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## Guest127

Caveat said:


> Unless I've misunderstood this system will only apply to new cars so she'll be OK if she buys 2nd hand no?


 
Thanks Caveat, however I suspect that if she was selling it  a 1.3 with €320 road tax compared with newer models with lower emmisions will be unattractive for a SH purchaser.  Probably will never arise anyway as she loves it and looking around I see a few as old as 2000  (hers is 2005) in pretty much as good as new conditon so I suspect they don't depreciate as fast as some other models.


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## chum

What impact on the environment have electric cars when there batteries are no longer viable? i suppose just change the batteries.


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## upport

ppp


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## bacchus

efm said:


> new registrations or imports into Ireland after the 1st July 2008 will be subject to the new VRT and Road Tax schemes, in the case of imports this is the case irrespective of the date of orignal registration in the country of origin.


 
And what happen if i import a car for which no CO2 emission figures are available, say a 1985 something?


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## IrlJidel

bacchus said:


> And what happen if i import a car for which no CO2 emission figures are available, say a 1985 something?



Do they check your CO2 emissions as part of your NCT ?


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## Caveat

IrlJidel said:


> Do they check your CO2 emissions as part of your NCT ?


 
Pretty sure they do.


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## polaris

IrlJidel said:


> Do they check your CO2 emissions as part of your NCT ?


 
They do but this data will not be used for the motor tax bands. I'm sure there are many cars out there with emissions that are now much greater than their "offical" rate.

Regarding the issue of buying a 2nd hand car after July '08, is it definite that these will still be taxed under the old bands? I'm almost certain that I read somewhere today (I can't find it) that when ownership changes after July '08 the car is taxed under the new system.

Anyone know for sure??


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## Satanta

polaris said:


> Regarding the issue of buying a 2nd hand car after July '08, is it definite that these will still be taxed under the old bands? I'm almost certain that I read somewhere today (I can't find it) that when ownership changes after July '08 the car is taxed under the new system.
> 
> Anyone know for sure??


For any second hand cars registered in Ireland pre July 08 the old bands continue.

It's only second hand cars imported and newly registered in Ireland post July 08 (and obviously second hand cars registered post July 08 will continue on the new system when we get to that point in time) which will fall under the new system.


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## Caveat

polaris said:


> Regarding the issue of buying a 2nd hand car after July '08, is it definite that these will still be taxed under the old bands? I'm almost certain that I read somewhere today (I can't find it) that when ownership changes after July '08 the car is taxed under the new system.
> Anyone know for sure??


 
Can't say I know for sure and can't put my finger on anything in writing, but this is my understanding - and the understanding of friends/work colleagues too.

If so, under my system of car buying, changes won't affect me until about 2013 ish.


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## upport

Bad deal for those who have agreed a deal for low emmissions new car for Jan.


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## Satanta

upport said:


> Bad deal for those who have agreed a deal for low emmissions new car for Jan.


On the current conditions, yes, definatly. (It gets worse as given the changes, very few people will buy a new low emission car this side of July, so prices for these may drop to increase sales in the first six months of '08 - IMHO)

However, these things can change very fast. Who knows when these rules may be updated/changed to include all cars.


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## upport

One solution would be to tax (road tax) 08 low emission cars from January onwards as per CO2 emissions and older cars on their renewal date.


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## Guest127

doesn't seem unfair that someone driving a low emission car prior to july next year continues to pay a higher road tax. perhaps if they offered a 'choice' to owners of cars registered prior to july next year which system they wished to be taxed under it would solve the problem. higher emission owners would opt for the current system, low emission for the new system. strikes me, and I am not in any way a legal eagle, that it cannot be right that two people driving the exact same car, with the exact same emissions pay two different rates of tax for said car. I do understand that it would be penalising someone who purchased last year to have to switch to the new system if it were to cost them a lot extra in road so maybe a 'choice' for such owners would solve the problem. probably too simple a solution for civil servants expecting another bonanza from benchmarking.


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## dave28

Very good point cuchulainn - a person who bought into eco-friendly / low emmission motoring in the last 12 months is now being penalised for being pro-active.
I'm wondering who is best to contact  to try and have this "anomaly" rectified - as you suggest, maybe giving people a choice etc...


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## upport

dave28 said:


> Very good point cuchulainn - a person who bought into eco-friendly / low emmission motoring in the last 12 months is now being penalised for being pro-active.
> I'm wondering who is best to contact to try and have this "anomaly" rectified - as you suggest, maybe giving people a choice etc...


Excellent point dave28.I'm sending an email to Brian Cowan today suggesting that the new legislation should be implemented from 1-1-08 for low emmision new cars and that existing low emmision cars be given a choice on renewal.Contact:minister@finance.gov.ie
One e-mail will make no difference but if lots of people support this idea and contact Mr Cowan then the Government might realise that their otherwise laudable attempt to combat environmental  issues could be implemented in a more constructive and customer friendly manner.


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## z101

Will all this cause a huge surge of second hand cars been imported from UK from next july to avail of the reduced tax rates?


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## PGD1

yes, cars already here will see their value drop


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## FMW

As many users have spotted, it would seem that the new motor tax rates are unfair to those of us who have purchased low emissions cars (i.e. most diesels, hybrids & small petrols) in the past 2 years or so. We will continue to pay the old high rates based on engine size while the same make and model registered after 1st July 2008 will benefit from substantially lower rates.

This is especially unfair if used cars imported after 1st July will be taxed under the new system. I haven't seen any detail published by the minister on this point, but from what's published in the media, it seems that this is likely to be the case. This will lead to situations where identical cars are taxed at very different rates which will definitely cause the resale value of currently reistered low emissions cars to suffer. This seems like a strange way for a "green" minister to treat people who acted responibly and chose to buy a clean car. 

I agree with the comments of other members - the only fair solution to this is allow people to choose which system to tax thier cars under after July 1st. High-emissions vehicle owners will opt for the old system which is cheaper for them while low emissions car owners will be much better off on the new system. 

If you already own a low-emissions car (i.e. most diesels, hybrids & small petrols), this affects you. You should make your views strongly known to the minister (minister@environ.ie) and ask him to rectify this anomaly.


----------



## paddyd

FMW said:


> I agree with the comments of other members - the only fair solution to this is allow people to choose which system to tax thier cars under after July 1st. High-emissions vehicle owners will opt for the old system which is cheaper for them while low emissions car owners will be much better off on the new system.




I agree with you that it effects the current 2nd hand diesel market (not so sure on the 1.2L -> 1.4L small car market, the emissions versus cost seem to be about the same under new and old systems),

however, I disagree that higher-emission cars should be allowed to choose their tax system ... surely this new system is targetted directly at the higher-emission cars

and you are not necessarily giving people any 'choice' -> everyone would of course pick the cheaper option 

I don't agree 100% with the new system, but I can certainly see the point of it; and it was always going to be introduced at some stage. Cowan announced it would happen in last years budget.


----------



## Lemming

I was a tad irate when I first posted about the unfairness to us people who bought oil burners in the last few years. It appeared badly thought-through by the minister. The people who it hurts are those people who bought environmentally-friendly cars and who probably voted Green Party in the last election. Someone who recently bought a 2.0l petrol actually benefits under the new system due to the effective appreciation of their car after July 1st. These purchasers were less likely to have voted Green and probably wouldn't in future elections. I suspect they voted FF but that's for another thread. The Greens would be consciously disenfranchising their own voters.

It's highly unlikely that even Minister Gormless didn't anticipate this scenario in advance and it's quite likely he's treating motorists and civil servants the same as putting a frog in hot water. Come July, he'll have gotten the new car tax system in place without the large amount of environmentally unfriendly owners complaining because it won't affect them. Current Green drivers will grumble a bit but are only 9.5% worse off compared to the previous year so they are unlikely to march on the Dail. Next November's budget will contain the first phase of extending it to older cars, possibly by a few years at a time. The number of possible complaints will be less this time next year as some people will already have changed.

Given a choice of taxing a second hand 1.9 "daysel" over the next five years or a second hand 1.6 petrol I'd choose the former.


----------



## alcyone

*Market effects of new tax bands.*

One of the relevant points the department insisted when asking for submissions is that changes be broadly revenue neutral.

These bands, both for road tax and VRT, have been calculated to deliver the same amount of money to the coffers from the punters.  So the estimates will have presumed that if some new cars will be cheaper, others will be more expensive to make up the deficit.

So it is naive to imagine they will allow people to pick the cheaper tax system, depending if they are advantaged/disadvantaged.

The whole system is geared to encourage or coerce people to opt for less polluting vehicles and you have to respect that.  However it will mean there will be plenty of anomalies to create headaches for the motor trade.

In particular the economical cars registered before July '08 will be stuck with the old higher road tax, and this will cause faster depreciation.  Much faster.  Second and third owners are much less forgiving of a high yearly road tax, maybe because they can't afford as much as the owner who bought new.  Watch how little a dealer will offer to take a trade in of a high tax car!! 

Another area that has potential for disaster is the cars that just manage to be above 225g/km.  These will see yearly tax jumping from a potential €1000 to €2000.  Again, the real headache in this will be the potential depreciation.  All cars in this upper bracket can expect to drop in value like a stone.

Having checked over the CO2 figures for the present batch of cars, one future trend immediately jumps out.  New car buyers who don't want to suffer this new artificial depreciation will have to strongly consider smaller diesel engined cars.  The likes of 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6 and some 1.8 turbodiesel cars will wipe the floor with the rest.

I'm glad I'm not a new car buyer.


----------



## z101

The changes in tax will not make that big a difference to second hand car prices - Isin't the new system been phased in to all cars over a period??


----------



## alcyone

No Ceatharlach, I don't think so.  It comes in with a bang in July.

What I mean is the new low CO2 cars[assuming the dealers pass on the VRT savings 100%!] will be cheaper than the pre-July registered ones to buy.  This will instantly depreciate the older cars.

In addition, any older car [even one 6 months old] will carry the handicap of a higher road tax from the old system, so second hand car buyers will pay less for those cars at trade-in time.

It's a double hit, lose-lose as they say. If I was a Green voter [I'm not!] with an economical car I would be very unhappy.


----------



## dave28

*Re: Market effects of new tax bands.*



alcyone said:


> So it is naive to imagine they will allow people to pick the cheaper tax system, depending if they are advantaged/disadvantaged.


I am talking talking specifically about people who in the last few years bought an eco-friendly, low-emissions vehicle (as the Green Party would have encouraged) and will now be stuck with a more expensive annual motor-tax.
We will have a ludicrous situation next July whereby a person who bought , for instance, a Toyota Prius last year will be paying 3 times the road tax that a new Prius owner will be paying.
I will be sending that e-mail to both Ministers !!


----------



## alcyone

*Re: Market effects of new tax bands.*



dave28 said:


> I am talking talking specifically about people who in the last few years bought an eco-friendly, low-emissions vehicle (as the Green Party would have encouraged) and will now be stuck with a more expensive annual motor-tax.
> We will have a ludicrous situation next July whereby a person who bought , for instance, a Toyota Prius last year will be paying 3 times the road tax that a new Prius owner will be paying.
> I will be sending that e-mail to both Ministers !!



You are right Dave.  Send the emails.

My heart goes out to Prius owners.  They should take comfort in the fact that  while a few hundred of them are paying 3 times the [fairly low!] road tax they might be paying, that hundreds of thousands of tiger economy suv owners will be paying at least double the annual road tax than they were used to!


----------



## FMW

*Re: Market effects of new tax bands.*



alcyone said:


> You are right Dave. Send the emails.
> 
> My heart goes out to Prius owners. They should take comfort in the fact that while a few hundred of them are paying 3 times the [fairly low!] road tax they might be paying, that hundreds of thousands of tiger economy suv owners will be paying at least double the annual road tax than they were used to!


 
Actually there's no comfort in this. Existing large SUV owners will continue to pay the rate of motor tax which applies now. It will be much higher for anyone buying a large SUV after July 1st, but for those who already have them (or buy them before July), there's no penalty. At least these people have the choice not to buy another SUV if they don't want to be hit by the higher tax. Conversely those of us who have already opted for low emissions motoring will suffer large deprecaition due to our vehicles being stuck on the higher tax rates. 
Ironically, the "greener" the car, the more dramtic the effect will be (for existing owners). The worst affected cars (in order of impact) are as follows:

(1) Small hybrids (e.g. Toyota Prius).
(2) Low emissions family diesels (Skoda Octavia, Toyota Corolla D4D, etc)
(3) Small Petrol cars (Punto 1.2 , Polo 1.2) - effect is less significant here though.

We must also remember that it seems that used cars imported after July 1st will be assesed under the new system - this will serve to increase the impact of depreciation on existing Irish-registered low emissions cars. 

I know that there was always the intention to maintain the tax take from motoring, but there's no need to do it in a way which will unfairly depreciate the value of low emissions cars. Not enough people know about the implications of this yet - there is a need to make people aware. I would encourage pep.ole to start writing to the minister, the newspapaers and to the AA. Also, it is likely that green voters will be most affected by this - make your views known to the green party also. It amazes me that it was their minister who introduced this.


----------



## Lemming

alcyone said:


> If I was a Green voter [I'm not!] with an economical car I would be very unhappy.


 
I am and I am.


----------



## werner

*Re: Market effects of new tax bands.*



FMW said:


> Actually there's no comfort in this. Existing large SUV owners will continue to pay the rate of motor tax which applies now. It will be much higher for anyone buying a large SUV after July 1st, but for those who already have them (or buy them before July), there's no penalty. At least these people have the choice not to buy another SUV if they don't want to be hit by the higher tax. Conversely those of us who have already opted for low emissions motoring will suffer large deprecaition due to our vehicles being stuck on the higher tax rates.
> Ironically, the "greener" the car, the more dramtic the effect will be (for existing owners). The worst affected cars (in order of impact) are as follows:
> 
> (1) Small hybrids (e.g. Toyota Prius).
> (2) Low emissions family diesels (Skoda Octavia, Toyota Corolla D4D, etc)
> (3) Small Petrol cars (Punto 1.2 , Polo 1.2) - effect is less significant here though.
> 
> We must also remember that it seems that used cars imported after July 1st will be assesed under the new system - this will serve to increase the impact of depreciation on existing Irish-registered low emissions cars.
> 
> I know that there was always the intention to maintain the tax take from motoring, but there's no need to do it in a way which will unfairly depreciate the value of low emissions cars. Not enough people know about the implications of this yet - there is a need to make people aware. I would encourage pep.ole to start writing to the minister, the newspapaers and to the AA. Also, it is likely that green voters will be most affected by this - make your views known to the green party also. It amazes me that it was their minister who introduced this.


 
Why are you amazed?

All Green policies are High Tax policies always were and always will be.

Is there anyone from the car trade that would like to comment since they made representations via S.I.M.I. to the gov.?


----------



## michaelm

Another gormless decision.  He should have simply scrapped motor tax and put it on petrol i.e polluter pays. It would then have applied on a usage basis to all cars on our roads, old & new plus the many non Irish-registered (and thus not taxed) cars. It would have been simple and fair.  The proposed system is less than family-friendly and it will equally penalise those who will use PPO or Ethanol.  Scrapping the current system would have removed overheads in relation to administration, enforcement, and time and money wasted prosecuting, and possibly imprisoning, dodgers.


----------



## FMW

Excellent letter SPC100. As well as sending to the politicians who will probably ignore it, you should try to get it published in sone of the newspapers. From talking to colleagues & friends, I feel that a lot of people don't realise the full side effects of these new tax rates. With a bit of publicity, that may change. Adverse public comment is probably the only thing that might encourage the minister to look at it again. I'm going to work on a few letters of my own along similar lines. Great work.


----------



## FMW

For those interested, I have put some information on the impacts of the new motor tax rates on a (fairly basic) web page. The link is below - please feel free to circulate this to anyone who might benefit from the information. 

http://members.lycos.co.uk/irishmotortax2008/Index.htm

Excuse the basic format - as you might guess, I'm not a web designer.


----------



## upport

Fantastic summery FMW.
Great work.
Please clarify point #3 of heading 'low emissions car' re '....wait for 2006 models to come onto the market....'


----------



## werner

Well done SPC100

Through public opinion the Government has been persuaded to stall their unwarranted salary increases

[broken link removed]

With enough public pressure they will revise the economically damaging and ill thought out VRT/Motor tax increases

My mail is already sent


----------



## FMW

upport said:


> Fantastic summery FMW.
> Great work.
> Please clarify point #3 of heading 'low emissions car' re '....wait for 2006 models to come onto the market....'


 
Sorry......typo there....I meant wait for 2008 used ones to come on the market......I'll fix this now.


----------



## Firefly

FMW said:


> For those interested, I have put some information on the impacts of the new motor tax rates on a (fairly basic) web page. The link is below - please feel free to circulate this to anyone who might benefit from the information.
> 
> http://members.lycos.co.uk/irishmotortax2008/Index.htm
> 
> Excuse the basic format - as you might guess, I'm not a web designer.


 

Well done on that, thanks.

(Yet another reason to buy an Octavia 1.9tdi)


----------



## alcyone

Lemming said:


> I am and I am.



Good for you.

I am sympathetic to the environmental concerns that underly Green issues, but I did not vote for them because I believe they are politically naive and possibly more emotively driven rather than pragmatic.

With this first green scud missile straight to the heart of their core voters my estimation unfortunately has proven to be correct.

VAT on children's shoes.  Hands up all who can remember that one????


----------



## alcyone

*Re: Market effects of new tax bands.*



werner said:


> Why are you amazed?
> 
> All Green policies are High Tax policies always were and always will be.
> 
> Is there anyone from the car trade that would like to comment since they made representations via S.I.M.I. to the gov.?



Prepare to chuck up if there is.

The car trade is easy to predict.  They have one agenda only, and that is protection of the profits of members.

Their primary problem with this new legislation will be getting the government to agree to a means of either restricting imports of second hand cars that will be favoured by the new tax rates, or else if impossible to restrict imports, get them heavily taxed so it is not financially beneficial.

This will be promoted on the basis that these imports will skew the market and cause job losses or else they are probably less green than the ones they are selling new.

Watch this space.  You read it here first.


----------



## alcyone

SPC100 said:


> I agree michaelm, i have made this point repeatedly to anyone who would listen to me.
> 
> Here is my letter....
> 
> To: minister@environ.ie
> CC: taoiseach@taoiseach.ie, fergus.odowd@finegael.ie, dominic.hannigan@oir.ie
> 
> Re: Punishing citizens who were proactive about lowering their car emissions
> cc: askaboutmoney.com Budget 2008 forum
> (http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=69742)
> 
> Dear Minister,
> 
> I am delighted to see that this budget includes measures to
> disincentivise (spelling?) people from using cars with higher emissions.
> Pollution and energy shortages are some of the biggest challenges facing
> Ireland inc. over the next few years. In my opinion it is correct to use
> carrots and sticks in this area.
> 
> One side affect from your proposal, is that the group of people who have
> been proactive by already choosing low emission/fuel efficient cars will
> suffer financially. By applying a lower VRT, and lower tax only to newly
> registered, fuel efficient cars, you are effectively reducing the value
> of the cars of citizens who have exercised personal proactivity in this
> area. The same applies in reverse, citizens who have purchased high
> emission vehicles will see their car value increase.
> 
> This is an abhorrent side effect for a proposal aimed at encouraging
> people to reduce emissions, and discouraging people from using high
> emission vehicles.
> 
> At a macro level, we need citizens & companies more than ever to be
> proactive about energy use, pensions etc., therefore it seems very
> inappropriate to punish people, who should be commended for being proactive.
> 
> I would like to see your proposal reward existing owners of low
> emission/fuel efficient vehicles ( I would propose that you use the NCT
> test results where suitable certificates are not available), or at the
> very least be revenue neutral for these citizens.
> 
> I find it unacceptable that the value of previously registered cars with
> low emissions will fall, while the value of previously registered cars
> with high emissions will rise.
> 
> I would like to hear how you propose to resolve this anomaly.
> 
> Is mise le meas,
> Sean xxxx.
> P.S.
> As an aside, I am unhappy that you did not choose a straightforward
> revenue neutral system like scrapping road tax, and adding the required
> number of cents to a litre of fuel. This would target/incentivise
> directly the largest polluters, free up the entire road tax
> group/department (a considerable saving for the state), free up Gardai
> time(a considerable saving & benefit for the state), increase compliance
> (by definition),  simplify our taxation system(by definition), and
> improve productivity/work-life balance by saving the average employed
> citizen 1.5 hours of effort per anum.



A very well worded letter.  They would have already looked at and disregarded your approach to CO2 tax on the petrol.  There is no chance this method will be adopted, even though anybody who looks at the numbers will agree it is the fairest way of implementing the "polluter pays" principle.

The two primary and non "revenue neutral" reasons for ignoring this fairest method of CO2 tax implementation are as follows:

1)  It will put the consumer price index through the roof.
2)  It will kill the revenue leakage from the North of Ireland with everybody north of the border currently buying millions of pounds worth of fuel in the South and bringing in "free" revenue.

Other than that, it's perfect.
[Rule Number 1: this is all about money, not green issues]


----------



## polaris

I think they also fear a backlash from country people who are totally reliant on cars having no access to public transport. Similarly, those who have been forced to move out from Dublin due to high house prices and consequently have long commutes and little or no public transport options would not be happy.

Rightly or wrongly, these approach will be seen by the public as targetting those who drive SUVs etc and they won't get much sympathy.


----------



## michaelm

alcyone said:


> The two primary and non "revenue neutral" reasons for ignoring this fairest method of CO2 tax implementation are as follows:
> 
> 1)  It will put the consumer price index through the roof.
> 2)  It will kill the revenue leakage from the North of Ireland with everybody north of the border currently buying millions of pounds worth of fuel in the South and bringing in "free" revenue.


I'm not sure point 1 is so important.  It could be ignored for CPI calculations or discounted as a one-off blip on the index.  I suspect that the increased revenue from all the non Irish-registered cars on our roads would compensate (in tax terms) for the losses from cross-border trade.  

 To calculate the overall increase per litre I'd image it's a simple enough calculation such as . . total motor-tax take (less estimated cost of overheads i.e. Administration, Garda time, Court time and any cost associated with imprisonment) divided by total litres sold in the Republic (less estimated litres sold to cross-border customers).


----------



## upport

FAO ALCYONE,FMW and other aggrived motorists....apart from mailing the ministers who will probably only laugh at our best efforts ,why not hit the airwaves i.e mail 'cars@rte.ie', Joe Duffy,Gerry Ryan......if these anommalies were discussed in public,those responsible for imposing this farce on low emission car owners would be exposed to ridicule and might comprehend that this worthy scheme could be introduced without infringing upon those of us who are already converted to greener thinking.


----------



## alcyone

FMW said:


> For those interested, I have put some information on the impacts of the new motor tax rates on a (fairly basic) web page. The link is below - please feel free to circulate this to anyone who might benefit from the information.
> 
> http://members.lycos.co.uk/irishmotortax2008/Index.htm
> 
> Excuse the basic format - as you might guess, I'm not a web designer.



Excellent work FMW.

Very informative and thank you for the effort.


----------



## alcyone

SPC100 said:


> Alcyone, the CPI thing I had considered as the prime reason they would be unwilling. We are a high cost economy, and figures backing that up even further, would not be good for our economy.



SPC, don't underestimate the cost to the economy of road tax incorporated into fuel costs.  All goods in all supermarkets are delivered by road.  As the diesel cost will rise for vans and trucks the same as cars, the transport sector will pass on these charges, thereby increasing the cost of everything we buy.  This would be no small or one-off effect.



> I didn't think of cross border fuel trade thanks for pointing that out. Even with a surcharge, it could still be cheaper, so it might not see a complete fall, and an increase in tax on the fuel, could even see the govt making more money, albeit through fewer litres sold.
> vbmenu_register("postmenu_539952", true);


No, the cost of our fuel will then be higher than Northern fuel, even with Stg differential. We would then be back in a situation of outflow of revenue, where everybody would drive north to fill up.  Lose/lose, unfortunately.



> I agree with that, it would be a one time blip, that could be explained, or even excluded (As it would be done in a revenue neutral fashion, the average consumer cost should still be the same). I don't know the processes used when calculating the CPI, so not sure how feasibile/legal it would be to exclude, but it seems like common sense to me.


No, sorry, the figures or calculations would not support that.



> This "increase" would be already factored in when doing the revenue neutral calculation (as they are already buying fuel). The actual increase would be in future revenue due to automatic compliance i.e. any car in the future that comes into the state could not opt out from paying road tax, as they would now pay road tax via fuel.
> 
> 
> I wonder what the extra cost on the petrol would be.
> 
> Does anyone know/estimate a)total motor tax take b)total number of litres of fuel sold for use in vehicles?


A rough calculation, basd on average family car figures. [excuse the old-fashioned miles, I'm showing my age here]

12,000 miles annual mileage
30 mpg reasonable consumption average
400 gallons used in a year @ cost of €1.17/l approx current.
Average road tax €600
Amount to be added per gallon to replace road tax = 600/400 = €1.50 per gallon.
Amount to be added per litre = €1.50/4.5461 = 33 cent per litre.

New cost [for the average car] per litre for petrol = 1.17 plus 0.33 = new road tax inclusive cost of €1.50 per litre.

Current cost of Northern petrol at £0.95 Stg converted to Euro at 0.71 is €1.34.

Result:  Serious outflow of fuel revenue to NI stations.  Not revenue neutral.


----------



## alcyone

JohnGormless said:


> To all askaboutmoney members: Feel free to distribute this....
> 
> *Christmas Message from the Minister for the Environment to Owners of High Emissions Cars.*
> 
> Dear High-Emissions Motorist,
> 
> Now that Christmas is approaching, I would like to announce a special gift for all owners of high-emissions vehicles. I would like you to continue to enjoy your polluting ways and I have therefore ensured that my new annual motor tax system will not penalise you. You will just continue to pay your motor tax on the same basis as you always have. To reward you for your choice of vehicle, my new system will also ensure that you will enjoy a discounted rate of motor tax after 1st July 2008. While the rates for new high-emissions cars will rise substantially after this date, you will be protected & will continue to enjoy the current lower ones.
> 
> For those of you who have not yet purchased your gas guzzler, I am giving you another six months during which you will be able to do so. And you really should. If you buy one before 1st July 2008, I will ensure that you enjoy all the same benefits as those who have already made this choice. You will also get the discounted rate of motor tax after July 1st. As an added bonus, the trade-in value of your vehicle will probably rise because it will continue to benefit from the lower tax rate indefinitely.
> 
> Don’t worry about those idiots who believed us and have bought their low-emissions car in the last few years. As they’re already signed up, we will just rip them off. I have ensured that their cars will continue to be stuck on the high motor tax rates permanently. After July 1st, they will be at a serious disadvantage and their cars will probably depreciate heavily as a result. To make certain of this, I have decided that my new tax rates will also apply to imported used cars. Low emissions ones imported after July 1st will benefit from much lower motor tax rates than identical ones already registered here. I really can’t stop congratulating myself on the cleverness of this – it will just crucify the resale value of all existing low emissions cars. I’m sure you will take great pleasure in the fact that those who have already chosen the cleanest cars (e.g. the Toyota Prius and family-sized diesels like the Skoda Octavia TDi) will probably fare worst of all.
> 
> Once again, my message is clear – continue your high emissions motoring & I will continue to look after you. I wish you a Happy Christmas and pleasant motoring in the new year.
> 
> Yours Sincerely,
> 
> John Gormless
> 
> Your Green Environment Minister,
> Supporting High-Emissions Motoring in Ireland.



Ha, ha, very funny and caustic, I like it

I think you are being a little hard on the Minister here with your perception that he has purposely advantaged "gas guzzlers"

These tax changes are so radical in approach, it is a blunt instrument.  Effectively he has changed the system to hurt large and heavy consumption private car buyers, and to make low consumption cars more attractive to purchase.

This change is radical and almost revolutionary, and in every revolution there are casualties.

If I had voted him in, and saw he did this much so soon I would be proud of the advance and support him.

In fact I'm putting my money where my mouth is, and changing to a lower consumption vehicle next year.

The six months lead in is ostensibly to allow motorists to make better financial and greener choices in the cars they buy.  In fact and in reality the motor trade orders all new cars months in advance, and it is also to accommodate their order system so that they can have the correct cars that people will want based on the new system.  Fair enough really.

No harm letting him know where the new regime is wrong and fight for rectitude, but he should be supported in the general thrust of the new legislation.


----------



## michaelm

alcyone said:


> Result:  Serious outflow of fuel revenue to NI stations.  Not revenue neutral.


Indeed, based on your assumed average for mileage, fuel efficiency and road tax, any or all of which may be wrong.  You may be too quick to shoot down the idea.  The AA reports petrol and diesel prices in the North to average €1.41 and €1.44 respectively for November.  Also, taking into account cost savings re the removal of overheads and the increased revenue re non Irish-registered vehicles, which you haven't done, could make a big difference to the actual required increase.  I'm sure the DOE would be able to calculate the correct figure if they weren't otherwise busy calculating Ministers and Civil Servants air-miles, with the intention of spending my money and yours on personal carbon credits to offset against said air-miles, despite the fact there is no onus on them to do so.


----------



## upport

*Re: Market effects of new tax bands.*



SPC100 said:


> That is a well made point alcyone.
> 
> The problem is, it is easy to criticise, but need to have an alternative. (Fuel tax is the most desireable)
> 
> But being realistic about what will happen, Does anyone see some small easy to administer tweaks that could be made to the current proposal that would incentivise greener motoring without unduely punishing the already converted?


'Tweaks' needed, imo if new vrt on new cars was introduced 1-1-08 and all existing low emission cars be allowed vrt rated road tax on their renewal then everyone would win.
If time constraints didn't allow set up for 1-1-08,then a promise of refund of overpaid vrt to new car owners would mean that people could proceed immediately with purchases in good faith.The alternative is defer purchase until July 08 or Jan 09.


----------



## werner

Mr Gormless!

I note your festive letter is causing quite some interest here!

[broken link removed]=



JohnGormless said:


> To all askaboutmoney members: Feel free to distribute this....
> 
> *Christmas Message from the Minister for the Environment to Owners of High Emissions Cars.*
> 
> Dear High-Emissions Motorist,
> 
> Now that Christmas is approaching, I would like to announce a special gift for all owners of high-emissions vehicles. I would like you to continue to enjoy your polluting ways and I have therefore ensured that my new annual motor tax system will not penalise you. You will just continue to pay your motor tax on the same basis as you always have. To reward you for your choice of vehicle, my new system will also ensure that you will enjoy a discounted rate of motor tax after 1st July 2008. While the rates for new high-emissions cars will rise substantially after this date, you will be protected & will continue to enjoy the current lower ones.
> 
> For those of you who have not yet purchased your gas guzzler, I am giving you another six months during which you will be able to do so. And you really should. If you buy one before 1st July 2008, I will ensure that you enjoy all the same benefits as those who have already made this choice. You will also get the discounted rate of motor tax after July 1st. As an added bonus, the trade-in value of your vehicle will probably rise because it will continue to benefit from the lower tax rate indefinitely.
> 
> Don’t worry about those idiots who believed us and have bought their low-emissions car in the last few years. As they’re already signed up, we will just rip them off. I have ensured that their cars will continue to be stuck on the high motor tax rates permanently. After July 1st, they will be at a serious disadvantage and their cars will probably depreciate heavily as a result. To make certain of this, I have decided that my new tax rates will also apply to imported used cars. Low emissions ones imported after July 1st will benefit from much lower motor tax rates than identical ones already registered here. I really can’t stop congratulating myself on the cleverness of this – it will just crucify the resale value of all existing low emissions cars. I’m sure you will take great pleasure in the fact that those who have already chosen the cleanest cars (e.g. the Toyota Prius and family-sized diesels like the Skoda Octavia TDi) will probably fare worst of all.
> 
> Once again, my message is clear – continue your high emissions motoring & I will continue to look after you. I wish you a Happy Christmas and pleasant motoring in the new year.
> 
> Yours Sincerely,
> 
> John Gormless
> 
> Your Green Environment Minister,
> Supporting High-Emissions Motoring in Ireland.


 
Mr Gormless

I note your festive letter is causing quite some interest here!

[broken link removed]=


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## alcyone

michaelm said:


> Indeed, based on your assumed average for mileage, fuel efficiency and road tax, any or all of which may be wrong.  You may be too quick to shoot down the idea.



Sure, I accept that.  I used the word "rough" for the calculation.  In fact the average of all the new July 08 bands is €653, but the exercise was only as a possible average indicator.  My estimate of 33cents could just as easily be conservative or much too low.



> The AA reports petrol and diesel prices in the North to average €1.41 and €1.44 respectively for November.



That's accepted.  Those also are averages.  I'm going by prices I see on the road.  If I cross the border to get petrol or diesel I won't go to average garages, I'll only use the ones that show lowest prices to attract business, just like the ones near the border currently have to.



> Also, taking into account cost savings re the removal of overheads and the increased revenue re non Irish-registered vehicles, which you haven't done, could make a big difference to the actual required increase.



Unrealistic.  I haven't included an estimation for this because I don't agree the point. You can't make a presumption that there would be any savings in overheads at administration level.  This is Ireland.  We don't do efficient.

There could indeed be revenue from non-Irish registered vehicles paying a certain portion of road tax in the fuel cost, fair point.  How much might this revenue bonus be off-set by a probable drop in tourism when our high cost of petrol and diesel becomes generally known?



> I'm sure the DOE would be able to calculate the correct figure if they weren't otherwise busy calculating Ministers and Civil Servants air-miles, with the intention of spending my money and yours on personal carbon credits to offset against said air-miles, despite the fact there is no onus on them to do so.



Fair point, but it think it is way past time there was a carbon tax on aviation fuel.  I'm pretty sure if you check the background of people grumbling about the new rates and congratulating themselves for being proactive about buying economical vehicles, you will find some of them have far less scruples about jetting off to New York or Paris for shopping, or holidays in Miami or Bali or the Canaries.  Or the latest trend of children taking a "year out" in Australia or New Zealand.  Any one of which air trips pumps enough CO2 per passenger carried to outdo a whole fleet of SUVs.

People need to get real about what the problem is.


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## werner

alcyone said:


> People need to get real about what the problem is.


 
Yes and if enough people got "real" about the damage to our economy created by inflationary motor tax increases that achieves zippo, zilch, nothing at all to alleviate the increase in C02 gases worldwide.

By 2014 China's car ownership will rank 4th in the world e.g. only seven Chinese out of 1,000 own a car, a quota that the US reached in 1915. Yet by 2014, total car ownership in China is estimated to rank fourth in the world after the US, Japan and Germany with a quota of more than 50 owners per 1,000 Chinese.

Expect 55 million cars by 2010 in China

Now the "Greens" come along with damaging economice policies that hurt their own supporters that have already bought into low emission vehichles!

If they wanted to lower carbon emissions and reduce energy demand all they would have needed to do would be to supply a real incentive to install loft insulation. Ireland has a pathethic level of insulation in homes. It would reduce carbons emissions by orders of magnitude higher than taxing their own supporters more to achieve nothing except to damage the economy.


I suggest people should get "Get real" and see how damaging these "Green" policies are to a slowing down economy like Irelands!


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## alcyone

Werner, that's a good point about the growing Chinese economy, and you could also say that the USA government takes a back seat in relation to low emission policies.

But however valid this may be it does not absolve us from the need to modify our usage of fossil fuels.

You make a really good point about house insulation.  A high percentage of oil sold in Ireland is for central heating.  This can be drastically reduced by investing in insulation.

You can change road tax overnight, but you can't change people's attitude and mindset on fuel usage overnight.  That takes time, and I think the changes in taxation are a good start.

As an observation on the dissatisfaction shown on this forum with the new tax system, it is difficult not to feel that the people who are peeved the most seem upset by the monetary disadvantage they may be at under the new system.  This would indicate that the primary reason they purchased so called "low emission" cars in the first place was to save their pockets, not to save the planet.

So use Homer Simpson logic on the problem; stop griping about it and buy a new car that benefits under the new tax.  They will be able to save money, help the slowing economy and save the planet all at the same time.


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## michaelm

alcyone said:


> People need to get real about what the problem is.





werner said:


> Expect 55 million cars by 2010 in China


I'm highly dubious about anthropogenic warming.  But if it's true and car emissions are a big factor then surely the problem will be self-limiting, if we are to believe the dire warnings about 'Peak Oil'.  If the oil runs out in 10 or 20 years then it won't matter how many cars are in China or India or the West as they won't be running on fossil fuel.


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## alcyone

I'm sold on the global warming theory primarily because the current rate of change is fairly rapid, in climate terms.

Like you Michael, I'm a sceptic.  I remember in previous oil shortages being told it would all be used up by 2010.  We're at 2008 now and there are no signs of dropping production.

As the cost per barrel rises, it then becomes economic to drill for more difficult stocks.

Naturally enough, it is a finite resource.  I would not hold my breath that it will all be used up in 30 or 40 years though.


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## werner

michaelm said:


> I'm highly dubious about anthropogenic warming. But if it's true and car emissions are a big factor then surely the problem will be self-limiting, if we are to believe the dire warnings about 'Peak Oil'. If the oil runs out in 10 or 20 years then it won't matter how many cars are in China or India or the West as they won't be running on fossil fuel.


 
Any educated layman or anyone with any scientific background should be sceptical of anthropogenic warming. Here in Ireland it is been pushed as a fact.
 
I highlighted the car issue with China to show the total fallacy of the increased "Green" taxes having any possible effect on climate change. This is simply a revenue raising exercise for the government and face saving for the Greens. 

The biggest threat to Irelands economy and prosperity at the beginning of the 21st century is not the property market or the fall out of sub prime lending.

It is the threat of ambitious "Green" environmentalism becoming accepted as fact. The Greens imagine their ideas and arguments on climate change to be an undisputable truth and use and abuse dubious statistics along with media manipulation coupled with PR stunts like cycling ministers to exert pressure on the electorate to achieve their goals. Their way is to spread fear and panic by asserting Earth's climate to be under serious man made threat. 

They continue to push policymakers to adopt anti economic measures, impose un-scientific arbitrary limits, regulations, increase in taxes and prohibitions, further restrictions on everyday human activities and make people subject to omnipotent bureaucratic decision-making begat by Green religious zealots.

Do we want Ireland to prosper or not?

The only fair tax for motorists is a tax on fuel based on the polluter pays principle, but of course the Greens abandoned that policy long ago.


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## FMW

alcyone said:


> As an observation on the dissatisfaction shown on this forum with the new tax system, it is difficult not to feel that the people who are peeved the most seem upset by the monetary disadvantage they may be at under the new system. This would indicate that the primary reason they purchased so called "low emission" cars in the first place was to save their pockets, not to save the planet.


 
Yes, this is a good observation but it's not completely true. After their house, for most people, their car is the biggest drain on financial resources. In my case, I chose an economical car (2006 Skoda Octavia TDi) because I though that it was the sensible and correct thing to do. It cost me more to buy than the equivalent petrol one and it has also cost me more to tax than the equivalent petrol one would have. Offsetting some of this is the benfit of better fuel economy, but it doesn't actually break even unless you drive a lot of miles (I just about achieve the break even point). 

I wasn't expecting any favours from John Gormley, but then again, I wasn't expecting to be kicked in the teeth either !!  I expect a lot of people feel the same way.


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## alcyone

Totally true.  I love cars and spend a lot of money on them.  We are screwed here in Ireland.  It is easily the second major expense for all households.

There is a good reason why they have to run parallel tax systems; there is no CO2 data available before around '97, and they only have complete data in the last couple of years.

With many cars lasting for 10 to 15 years these days, they can't adopt the new system for the majority of '90s cars or earlier models.

Here's a suggestion:

There is no reason why they could not apply the new CO2 bands to any cars registered in the last 3 years, because the data is there.  That way the more economical cars will immediately get the benefit of the new lower rates.  The cost of this will be paid for by the higher CO2 emitters having to pay higher tax.

Any farther back you are going to hit problems with incomplete data, change of models and so on.

But it could easily be done, and we should press the case through the AA and others to make them apply it from July onwards.

This simple thing would immediately validate the choice of those early adapters who recently bought an economy vehicle, and will allow the SUV brigade 6 months to consider changing to a lower CO2 band vehicle.


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## popol

alcyone said:


> A very well worded letter. They would have already looked at and disregarded your approach to CO2 tax on the petrol. There is no chance this method will be adopted, even though anybody who looks at the numbers will agree it is the fairest way of implementing the "polluter pays" principle.
> 
> The two primary and non "revenue neutral" reasons for ignoring this fairest method of CO2 tax implementation are as follows:
> 
> 1) It will put the consumer price index through the roof.
> 2) It will kill the revenue leakage from the North of Ireland with everybody north of the border currently buying millions of pounds worth of fuel in the South and bringing in "free" revenue.
> 
> Other than that, it's perfect.
> [Rule Number 1: this is all about money, not green issues]


 
How about introducing it on a phased basis over the term of this government then. 25% levy in y1, y2 etc and at that the same time a 25% annual reduction in road tax. That would soften the effect of the CPI. At least then we could see some progress in the direction of the polluter paying and it allows everyone to move toward economical cars as we all begin to feel the pinch.
I'd also love to know what the public service bill is to run the motor tax office - they could be redeployed to something useful.


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## Guest127

I'm old enough to remember the abolition of road tax and putting it onto petrol prices ( around 1977 I think, certainly in Jack Lynchs' government). few years later its back in at a very small rate around £20 per annum. Same thing would happen again. some year the government will be stuck for a few bob and everybody now used to price of petrol ( + the carbon taxes when they are implemented , an excuse to gather another few bob) the motor tax would be reintroduced at a low rate. sort of like putting a frog into luke warm water. 5 years after that it would be back to full rate.


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## werner

SPC100 said:


> I agree michaelm, i have made this point repeatedly to anyone who would listen to me.
> 
> Here is my letter....
> 
> To: minister@environ.ie
> CC: taoiseach@taoiseach.ie, fergus.odowd@finegael.ie, dominic.hannigan@oir.ie
> 
> Re: Punishing citizens who were proactive about lowering their car emissions
> cc: askaboutmoney.com Budget 2008 forum
> (http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=69742)
> 
> Dear Minister,
> 
> I am delighted to see that this budget includes measures to
> disincentivise (spelling?) people from using cars with higher emissions.
> Pollution and energy shortages are some of the biggest challenges facing
> Ireland inc. over the next few years. In my opinion it is correct to use
> carrots and sticks in this area.
> 
> One side affect from your proposal, is that the group of people who have
> been proactive by already choosing low emission/fuel efficient cars will
> suffer financially. By applying a lower VRT, and lower tax only to newly
> registered, fuel efficient cars, you are effectively reducing the value
> of the cars of citizens who have exercised personal proactivity in this
> area. The same applies in reverse, citizens who have purchased high
> emission vehicles will see their car value increase.
> 
> This is an abhorrent side effect for a proposal aimed at encouraging
> people to reduce emissions, and discouraging people from using high
> emission vehicles.
> 
> At a macro level, we need citizens & companies more than ever to be
> proactive about energy use, pensions etc., therefore it seems very
> inappropriate to punish people, who should be commended for being proactive.
> 
> I would like to see your proposal reward existing owners of low
> emission/fuel efficient vehicles ( I would propose that you use the NCT
> test results where suitable certificates are not available), or at the
> very least be revenue neutral for these citizens.
> 
> I find it unacceptable that the value of previously registered cars with
> low emissions will fall, while the value of previously registered cars
> with high emissions will rise.
> 
> I would like to hear how you propose to resolve this anomaly.
> 
> Is mise le meas,
> Sean xxxx.
> P.S.
> As an aside, I am unhappy that you did not choose a straightforward
> revenue neutral system like scrapping road tax, and adding the required
> number of cents to a liter of fuel. This would target/incentivise
> directly the largest polluters, free up the entire road tax
> group/department (a considerable saving for the state), free up Gardai
> time(a considerable saving & benefit for the state), increase compliance
> (by definition), simplify our taxation system(by definition), and
> improve productivity/work-life balance by saving the average employed
> citizen 1.5 hours of effort per anum.


 
Public opinion has forced the Gov to defer their pay rises

Public opinion has forced the Gov to defer the School water charges
Ireland 
*http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1218/water.html*

*"Schools should wait to pay water bills - Ahern*


The Taoiseach has told the Dáil that the Government is considering the implementation of a transition period governing the payment of water charges by schools.Bertie Ahern said that this period might extend to 2009 and would involve flat rate payments by schools"

The Government can be forced to adjust the rip off Motor Tax changes as well, to one that will be environmentally friendly yet not create further damage to the economy

E-mail the news programs and your TD's now!


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## upport

Politicians will only react to adverse public opinion.Contact Joe Duffy,Gerry Ryan,Pat Kenny.Newstalk etc


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## werner

upport said:


> Politicians will only react to adverse public opinion.Contact Joe Duffy,Gerry Ryan,Pat Kenny.Newstalk etc


 
Excellent article highlighting the advers effect of the new Motor Tax rates ets here 

[broken link removed]

"Two-tier motor tax system 'penalises unfairly'
*Paddy Comyn*
Motorists who already drive low-emission vehicles are criticising the new two-tier motor tax system, as they feel it penalises them unfairly for already owning a low-emission vehicle."

It appears it is becoming a live issue in the public domain now


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## FMW

werner said:


> Excellent article highlighting the advers effect of the new Motor Tax rates ets here
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> It appears it is becoming a live issue in the public domain now


 

Yes - great to see this. People need to keep making their views known in public though to keep pressure on the minister. Anyone reading this - please keep writing & e-mailing to the newspapers and the politicians and keep the pressure on to try to get rid of this particular anomaly.


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## werner

FMW said:


> Yes - great to see this. People need to keep making their views known in public though to keep pressure on the minister. Anyone reading this - please keep writing & e-mailing to the newspapers and the politicians and keep the pressure on to try to get rid of this particular anomaly.


 
And here is a good article in the Irish Independent highlighting many of the issues raised!

http://www.independent.ie/national-...-uturn-as-tax-hits-clean-drivers-1255743.html


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## FMW

It seems that Mr. Gormless' new annual motor tax scheme is runnning into some trouble with the announcement that he's backdating the new (lower rates) for low emissions cars to 1st Jan 2008. This will be welcome news for those who bought such cars in the past 2 months, but it does nothing for those of us who bought them in 2007, 2006 & before. It seems that we're still going to be stuck indefinitely with higher tax rates and their consequent detrimental effect on the resale value of our low emissions cars. No doubt this change will be sold as making the system fairer - but how is it fair to someone who bought a low emissions car in 2006 and is stuck paying a multiple of the road tax which someone who buys the same car now ??

The real reason for the minister's change of heart is pressure from the SIMI who are seeing falling sales as many people were obviously waiting 'till after July 1st to purchase new cars. 

So instead of a 2-tier system, it now seems we will have a a 2.5 tier one which is still as unfair as ever to those who have already chosen low emissions motoring. It's time to put some real pressure on this minister - everyone who has a low emissions car should be eligible to apply to have it taxable at the new rate. It can be done - the onus could be put on the owner to provide the necessary documentation (certificates of conformance are available from manufacturers for most cars since at least 2002) and extend real fair play to all.  Come on Gormless, time to admint that you didn't get this right. Stop messing & fix it now.


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## FMW

It seems that Mr. Gormless' new annual motor tax scheme is runnning into some trouble with the announcement that he's backdating the new (lower rates) for low emissions cars to 1st Jan 2008. This will be welcome news for those who bought such cars in the past 2 months, but it does nothing for those of us who bought them in 2007, 2006 & before. It seems that we're still going to be stuck indefinitely with higher tax rates and their consequent detrimental effect on the resale value of our low emissions cars. No doubt this change will be sold as making the system fairer - but how is it fair to someone who bought a low emissions car in 2006 and is stuck paying a multiple of the road tax which someone who buys the same car now ??

The real reason for the minister's change of heart is pressure from the SIMI who are seeing falling sales as many people were obviously waiting 'till after July 1st to purchase new cars. 

So instead of a 2-tier system, it now seems we will have a a 2.5 tier one which is still as unfair as ever to those who have already chosen low emissions motoring. It's time to put some real pressure on this minister - everyone who has a low emissions car should be eligible to apply to have it taxable at the new rate. It can be done - the onus could be put on the owner to provide the necessary documentation (certificates of conformance are available from manufacturers for most cars since at least 2002) and extend real fair play to all. Come on Gormless, time to admint that you didn't get this right. Stop messing & fix it now.


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## kfk

FMW said:


> It seems that Mr. Gormless' new annual motor tax scheme is runnning into some trouble with the announcement that he's backdating the new (lower rates) for low emissions cars to 1st Jan 2008. This will be welcome news for those who bought such cars in the past 2 months, but it does nothing for those of us who bought them in 2007, 2006 & before. It seems that we're still going to be stuck indefinitely with higher tax rates and their consequent detrimental effect on the resale value of our low emissions cars. No doubt this change will be sold as making the system fairer - but how is it fair to someone who bought a low emissions car in 2006 and is stuck paying a multiple of the road tax which someone who buys the same car now ??
> 
> The real reason for the minister's change of heart is pressure from the SIMI who are seeing falling sales as many people were obviously waiting 'till after July 1st to purchase new cars.
> 
> So instead of a 2-tier system, it now seems we will have a a 2.5 tier one which is still as unfair as ever to those who have already chosen low emissions motoring. It's time to put some real pressure on this minister - everyone who has a low emissions car should be eligible to apply to have it taxable at the new rate. It can be done - the onus could be put on the owner to provide the necessary documentation (certificates of conformance are available from manufacturers for most cars since at least 2002) and extend real fair play to all. Come on Gormless, time to admint that you didn't get this right. Stop messing & fix it now.


 
Do you have a link for this story? I cannot find any news regarding this announcement. Where did you hear about it?


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## eddie10

FMW said:


> It seems that Mr. Gormless' new annual motor tax scheme is runnning into some trouble with the announcement that he's backdating the new (lower rates) for low emissions cars to 1st Jan 2008. This will be welcome news for those who bought such cars in the past 2 months, but it does nothing for those of us who bought them in 2007, 2006 & before. It seems that we're still going to be stuck indefinitely with higher tax rates and their consequent detrimental effect on the resale value of our low emissions cars. No doubt this change will be sold as making the system fairer - but how is it fair to someone who bought a low emissions car in 2006 and is stuck paying a multiple of the road tax which someone who buys the same car now ??
> 
> The real reason for the minister's change of heart is pressure from the SIMI who are seeing falling sales as many people were obviously waiting 'till after July 1st to purchase new cars.
> 
> So instead of a 2-tier system, it now seems we will have a a 2.5 tier one which is still as unfair as ever to those who have already chosen low emissions motoring. It's time to put some real pressure on this minister - everyone who has a low emissions car should be eligible to apply to have it taxable at the new rate. It can be done - the onus could be put on the owner to provide the necessary documentation (certificates of conformance are available from manufacturers for most cars since at least 2002) and extend real fair play to all. Come on Gormless, time to admint that you didn't get this right. Stop messing & fix it now.


 
Does this mean that cars first registered in Ireland(imported second hand car from uk) from January 08 will have to pay the new rate of tax as opposed to the old one? Has the VRT date changed from july 08 as well?? I assume not..


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## mik_da_man

Yeah any more info on this?
I bought a car at the start of this month and taxed it.
If I waited till July the tax would be lower..
Does Mr Gormless plan on giving me a refund?


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## FMW

kfk said:


> Do you have a link for this story? I cannot find any news regarding this announcement. Where did you hear about it?


 
Heard about it first on "Morning Ireland" this morning. There's a story in today's Irish Times.


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## mik_da_man

Here's a link to the story [broken link removed]

To answer my question: 


> Under one such amendment, post-January 1st car purchasers will be able to "opt in" for the new lower motor taxes, but they are unlikely to be able to get a refund on any taxes already paid.


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## werner

mik_da_man said:


> Yeah any more info on this?
> I bought a car at the start of this month and taxed it.
> If I waited till July the tax would be lower..
> Does Mr Gormless plan on giving me a refund?


 
It appears that your Motor Tax will be lower but if you paid the current rip-off VRT you will be out of pocket e.g.

If you thought you were doing the environmentally friendly thing and bought a low emission Diesel 1.9TDI like a Skoda Octavia etc prior to July your VRT would have being at 25%

After July it will reduce to 16%, there should be a reduction in the price of the car of approx 2.5K

Some favour? I hope the electorate will treat the Green party in the next election with the same level of contempt as they have treated the public


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## mik_da_man

Ah I think I'm ok, Just checked it out
My motor tax only went down by €67 but my car went up in VRT


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## Fatphrog

I'm trying to find a link to an actual announcement by Gormley but I can't find one.

Has this backdating of tax been confirmed and does anyone have a link to something a bit more solid than the IT article?


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## ang1170

Also, does anyone know about the possibility, also reported in the Irish Times (yesterday), that the new emmisions based regime won't apply after all to imported 2nd hand cars after July?

If it's true, it would make a lot of sense. Having said that, I guess it's unlikely to be true in that case, on thinking about it......


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## soy

Note this anouncement relates only to Road tax. The new emissions VRT system will still apply as described  in the budget.

If you bring in a pre-08 car from the UK after July 1, you pay VRT under the emissions system and road tax under the engine size system.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/News/MainBody,16861,en.htm


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## eddie10

From that link, it shows us that imports wont avail of the new ommision based car tax. 
It say nothing about vrt on imports though. Is there anywhere that shows imports pre july08 can avail of this ommision based vrt as well as irish sales. The car tax is a surprise. Is the VRT another one.


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## Frank

Looks like they will screw this around to continue to screw the motorist as much as possible.

I think we are going to have to wait for July to see what happens. I bet the lads in Leinster house don't know 100%


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## fazulas

Everybody concerned about this issue should write to the Minister of the Environment and to the Ombudsman to complain about it. People should realise that they have to fight for their rights, especially in cases as blatantly unfair as this.

I have set up a some information about the new motor tax here:
[broken link removed] 

Regards


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## EnergyRecru

I have, AFAIK, 1MB landline broadband from BT. Assuming I am the only one on the line, what is the maximum download rate, in kps, possible ?


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