# Wallet stolen and money illegally extracted from my accounts



## fairyonbar (5 Aug 2010)

About 8 months ago, I was targeted for robbery in a London bar.  I used my Bank of Ireland credit card to pay for a round of drinks, placed my wallet back in my handbag (which was on my shoulder the whole night) and about an hour and a half later, when I went to get my wallet out of my bag I noticed it was missing.  I immediately, and repeatedly, phoned Banking 365 and requested card services on the automated answering service. I was informed that the offices were closed and would not be open until the morning. No emergency credit card cancellation number was mentioned on the automated service.

I contacted my mother at home in Ireland who tried to contact the bank and was told that the office wasn’t open until 10:00. The following morning, which was a saturday, just after 10am I got through to BOI and cancelled my card. I enquired about recent transactions and was told that almost 900 euro had been extracted since I had last used the card.  Obviously I got straight on to the Metropolitan police and reported the incident although they've never prosecuted anyone for the theft.

The following Monday, when I contacted BOI fraud dept I was informed by both the person I spoke to in this department and the person in the Security department that I would be held liable for the transactions as they had been “cash transactions and a pin had been used.”.

Later that day I received a phonecall from AIB which whom I held a current account that I had a debit card for but which I had NEVER used at an ATM before as I didn't know the pin. I liked to keep some savings in this account as I couldn't access them unless I went into the bank with my ID and had approx 4000 euro in the account.  I hadn't realized that this card was in my wallet and had not phoned the bank to cancel it. I was told that there had been some 'unusual activity' on the account and there was now only 7 euro left in the account.  The AIB employee I spoke with was extremely patronizing and discouraging and told me that I would not get my money back as the pin was used and it was clear that I held the pin in my wallet.  She also went so far as to accuse me of being "trashed" as I was in a bar at the time of the robbery.  

For the BOI credit card I was offered 300 euro as a token which I refused.  I haven't done anything wrong, I was always very careful about using the card and took all reasonable precautions to prevent others seeing my pin number. I acted with all possible speed in attempting to contact BOI immediately when I discovered the theft of my card, it was due to a fault in their own system that there was no emergency number available to me which of course again they deny.  I just didn't think that 300 euro was enough.

I have constantly been called a lier by both of my banks.  I have been bullied and victimized by them both and have found it impossible to get my money back.  My BOI case is now with the Financial Ombudsman having exhausted all internal lines of contact with them and I am currently bringing the AIB case to them.  Im just so exhausted from fighting them and have almost given up hope in fighting two massive institutions such as these.

I know its worth fighting it out until the end - Im 25 years of age and have always been extremely good with managing my finances.  I was at the time of the robbery using these savings to maintain myself as I did a fashion internship in London.  Ive never had any loans and always repaid my credit card in time.  Since this incident I've lost a lot of trust, not only in everyday society, but in the institutions that are supposed to be there to help us and protect our money.  I feel so let down and am so worried about money.  

If anyone can offer any help or advice...even just a positive story that might help maintain my spirit... I would be hugely appreciative.


----------



## gebbel (5 Aug 2010)

There is nothing anybody here can say other than you have paid a high price for, and I'm sorry, being irresponsible. The banks are under no obligation to refund you anything. As they said to you, your PIN was used which implies negligence on your behalf. It's a tough lesson but one that I'm afraid you are going to have to shoulder. I don't mean to be harsh, just move on.


----------



## jaffa20 (5 Aug 2010)

Imho, BOI were very generous by offering you that goodwill refund. Your transactions were pin verified and they are under no obligation to refund you.


----------



## Pat Bateman (5 Aug 2010)

The BOI card issue seems clear cut...the scumbags obviously saw you using the card and entering your PIN number.

The AIB card issue seems less clear cut (based on the information provided in your post).  Did you have the PIN number for this account in your wallet?  If you did then I'm sorry but you should be liable for any loss.


----------



## truthseeker (5 Aug 2010)

I dont understand how the OP was being irresponsible?

Her wallet was stolen, no matter how vigilant someone is, this is an unfortunate incident that can happen to anyone - beng targeted by a professional who made sure they watched her use the card and got the pin is not not something that the OP being more responsible would have definitely prevented.

She also says she DID NOT KNOW the pin of the other card. If she didnt know it then I dont see how it could have been in her wallet - if it was surely she would have known it?

She only has the word of the AIB employee that the pin was used - was there not some news report recently showing how easy it was to crack the 'pin verified' on chip and pin cards and that for a professional scammer this is easy?

OP I am sorry for your situation - I dont think you were irresponsible.


----------



## Pat Bateman (5 Aug 2010)

truthseeker said:


> I dont understand how the OP was being irresponsible?
> 
> Her wallet was stolen, no matter how vigilant someone is, this is an unfortunate incident that can happen to anyone - beng targeted by a professional who made sure they watched her use the card and got the pin is not not something that the OP being more responsible would have definitely prevented.
> 
> ...


 
The OP should have ensured that nobody saw her enter her credit card PIN number.  Sorry to be blunt, but allowing someone to see the number was irresponsible.

Perhaps the OP would clarify whether her AIB ATM card PIN number may have been in her wallet?  As I said earlier, it's unclear from her post.

A sad story irrespective of where the blame lies.


----------



## Marietta (5 Aug 2010)

fairyonbar said:


> The following Monday, when I contacted BOI fraud dept I was informed by both the person I spoke to in this department and the person in the Security department that I would be held liable for the transactions as they had been “cash transactions and a pin had been used.”.
> 
> Later that day I received a phonecall from AIB which whom I held a current account that I had a debit card for but which I had NEVER used at an ATM before as I didn't know the pin. I liked to keep some savings in this account as I couldn't access them unless I went into the bank with my ID and had approx 4000 euro in the account.


 
I have an AIB current account and I can only (as far as I am aware) withdraw a maximum of €600 a day. If the theft occurred on a Friday night and AIB called you the following Monday afternoon to inform you only €7 was left in your account out of a balance of €4000.00 then if my calculations are right the sum of €2400 should have left your account, I just dont understand it. I do feel very very sorry for the OP but one should NEVER EVER keep their card and pin number together.


----------



## gebbel (6 Aug 2010)

fairyonbar said:


> I immediately, and repeatedly, phoned Banking 365 and requested card services on the automated answering service. I was informed that the offices were closed and would not be open until the morning. No emergency credit card cancellation number was mentioned on the automated service.


 
You were also ringing the wrong people. The Credit Card lost/stolen department is separate to Banking 365 and have somebody there 24.7.

Again, I'm sorry but you should have known this.


----------



## fairyonbar (6 Aug 2010)

I have a family member who has worked for the bank for many years and I am extremely aware of the correct protocol to follow when using a credit or debit card.  I ALWAYS cover my hand when entering my pin-code and did so on the night in question.  

As for having my pin code in my wallet, I have NEVER carried a pin code in my wallet, nor have I ever made my pin code my birth-date. I think anyone who behaves in this way is asking to be robbed, and despite being perhaps somewhat naive to this sort of criminal behavior prior to this incident, I have always been fully aware of the danger of carrying a pin-code with a card and would like to reiterate that I have never, ever done this.

I am a young professional, Im not stupid and I was not, in my opinion, irresponsible with my cards or my pin code.

The London police have told me that these people are professional shoulder surfers and often have cameras hidden to aid their profession.  If you would consider me to be irresponsible I would ask you to think whether you use your entire body to shield you pin code from prying eyes, in a way that you yourself cant even see what buttons you are pressing, as that is the only way that these thieves can be avoided.  

As for the AIB card, I do not know the pin code and the bank cannot tell me the pin code so i have no way of knowing how they got this.  Like I said I only use this card within banks, once or twice a year when lodging or withdrawing large sums.  And like someone pointed out, if I had the pin-code in my wallet, would I not then have at some point over the years Ive had the card, used it at an ATM?


----------



## Marietta (6 Aug 2010)

fairyonbar - Did you find out anything about your AIB card and how these thieves were able to exceed the daily limit on your account??


----------



## fairyonbar (6 Aug 2010)

Sorry Marietta, it took ten weeks and a visit to my local branch manager to get this response:

"...investigation confirmed that between (Friday to Monday dates) ten ATM transactions and 19 points of sale transactions were carried out with your card...The daily withdrawal on your card is €600 at an ATM, €2500 at point of sale or a maximum of 10 transactions to a lesser value.  These daily limits reset at midnight.  At no point were these limits exceeded."

I hard lesson indeed.


----------



## Marietta (6 Aug 2010)

The whole procedure for AIB ATM cards is very bad, Recently I got a new card and when I went to use it in the shop I couldnt remember my pin number, I tried three times and my pin was blocked. The girl at the till got me to sign a slip from the machine and my purchases were complete, it did get me wondering if I were to lose my card anybody who found it could use it by just signing the machine receipt. By the way I didnt even have my signatory written at the back of the card.

Maybe this is what happened in your case you should look into it.


----------



## jhegarty (6 Aug 2010)

Could they not do a charge back on credit card ?


----------



## irishmoss (6 Aug 2010)

We had money taken from uor account after using an ATM and laser card. No one was behind. Fraud dept say they use bluetooth technology and can be parked in a van nearby. 

The credit card money should have been refunded, maybe the aib pin was the same as other?


----------



## papervalue (7 Aug 2010)

fairyonbar said:


> Sorry Marietta, it took ten weeks and a visit to my local branch manager to get this response:
> 
> "...investigation confirmed that between (Friday to Monday dates) ten ATM transactions and 19 points of sale transactions were carried out with your card...The daily withdrawal on your card is €600 at an ATM, €2500 at point of sale or a maximum of 10 transactions to a lesser value.  These daily limits reset at midnight.  At no point were these limits exceeded."
> 
> I hard lesson indeed.



That was an awful thing to happen to you. Just off the point when you reported/learned about A.I.B card as above, with the amount of transactions involved I would assume they(police/fraud dept) would look for some cctv of who was responsible and link back to bar, maybe regular customer. They went to 29 locations .By any chance were pin numbers on two cards the same. 

Also Do all uk require pin or do some still make you sign.

With so many transactions it sounds professional or extremely stupid to go to so many places to get money. 

Did you get a print off of statement of what was bough at point of sale.

I always protect my pin, but I am well aware something like the above could happen to anyone, I use a separate credit card for any transaction done physical abroad to one i use in Ireland.


----------



## MandaC (7 Aug 2010)

I also think people are being too hard on the OP.

Article on the radio about another scam to get your card.  Lady phoned in to tell people to be careful, and then another load of people phoned in and it had happened to them.  Usually happens in a Supermarket.  group target someone in the shop and "shoulder surf" them so they see the pin number.  Then outside a different well dressed couple approach the victim putting groceries in the car just as they are ready to drive off.  One of the couple usually distracts the victim by holding up a map, saying they are tourists and are looking for somewhere on the map.  While the person is helping them, the other part of the couple pickpockets the card from the handbag on the front seat of the car.

Person might not cop on for ages the card has gone.  

OP, I would definitely follow up on the AIB card, if there is no pin.  Unless the PIN numbers were the same. 

Sorry this happened to you.  This type of thing frightens me as no matter how aware you are, the scammers are always a step ahead.  Bluetooth technology now being used as in Irish Moss case above.  Scary stuff.  

A friend of mine and his wife both have VISA cards on the same account.  She never uses her card but he uses his regularly.  Weird transactions showed up on the statement and it was confirmed that it was her card used.  She had used her card once in the previous year in a  Dublin City Centre Restaurant.


----------



## Complainer (7 Aug 2010)

Pat Bateman said:


> The OP should have ensured that nobody saw her enter her credit card PIN number.  Sorry to be blunt, but allowing someone to see the number was irresponsible.


The bank should ensure that chip-and-pin terminals are designed so that the pin number is not visible to shoulder-surfers or cctv cameras. A simple shield over the keyboard/hand would probably suffice.


----------



## Gulliver (7 Aug 2010)

The assumption being made is that the use of a card and PIN makes it an open and shut case.  However, the following is an extract from the relevant legislation, introduced last November as Statutory Instrument no 383 signed by Brian Lenihan:-

_"(2) If a payment service user denies having authorised an executed payment_
_transaction, the use of a payment instrument recorded by the payment service_
_provider is not in itself necessarily sufficient to prove either that the payment_
_transaction was authorised by the payer or that the payer acted fraudulently or_
_intentionally or failed, because he or she acted with gross negligence, to fulfil_​_one or more of his or her obligations under Regulation 70."_

Not quite so open and shut as you might expect!


----------



## hfp (7 Aug 2010)

Marietta said:


> The whole procedure for AIB ATM cards is very bad, Recently I got a new card and when I went to use it in the shop I couldnt remember my pin number, I tried three times and my pin was blocked. The girl at the till got me to sign a slip from the machine and my purchases were complete, it did get me wondering if I were to lose my card anybody who found it could use it by just signing the machine receipt. By the way I didnt even have my signatory written at the back of the card.
> 
> Maybe this is what happened in your case you should look into it.



I believe that in the uk at least that the retailer is liable for any fraud on a card where the pin has been bypassed.


----------



## Black Sheep (8 Aug 2010)

Is it necessary for Statutory instruments to be written in such convaluted language. Perhaps this is why people are so reluctant to read them and are therefore not quite clear where they stand when things go wrong


----------

