# Youth Travel Card 19 to 23



## Brendan Burgess (12 Oct 2021)

50% discount on fares


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## Steven Barrett (12 Oct 2021)

Waste of money. It is supposed to encourage young people to use public transport instead of buying cars. 

Having a great public transport system will do that. Which works better, having to wait 5 - 15 minutes for a bus that costs €2 or waiting 30-45 minutes for a bus that costs €1?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Oct 2021)

Indeed, funds would be better spent on quicker services rather than lower fares.


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## Peanuts20 (12 Oct 2021)

In effect, what this will do is abolish the current student card and treat all 19-23 yr olds as the same, so people starting work or on an apprentiship will be treated the same as students. For people starting out on work in minimum wage roles, it will be a decent saving for them.


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## dereko1969 (12 Oct 2021)

Steven Barrett said:


> Waste of money. It is supposed to encourage young people to use public transport instead of buying cars.
> 
> Having a great public transport system will do that. Which works better, having to wait 5 - 15 minutes for a bus that costs €2 or waiting 30-45 minutes for a bus that costs €1?





NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Indeed, funds would be better spent on quicker services rather than lower fares.


It's not either/or in this case. It's a subsidy from current expenditure, extra buses are Capital expenditure. If it helps attract more young people into getting used to using Public Transport rather than defaulting to buying a car then it's a good thing.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Oct 2021)

dereko1969 said:


> It's a subsidy from current expenditure, extra buses are Capital expenditure.


Yes because euros aren't fungible, right?


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## silverfox239 (13 Oct 2021)

The government has to try new ideas, this incentive will encourage younger people to think about taking public transport first and help to change the long term Irish belief of a car trip first.

And with all new ideas if the government sees good participation rates it can widen the age range, lower price further, etc. or if  participation rates low they can cancel it. But at least they tried a new idea.


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## Sunny (13 Oct 2021)

Didn't we always use public transport if available at 19-23?? I certainly did in Dublin. However, the idea that it might make them think twice about buying a car in later life is laughable. Even in Dublin with it's public transport options, has any Government Minister tried having a family without a car??? Oh I will bring my child swimming. So that's two buses and a 20 minute walk. I will bring my pregnant wife into that hospital appointment. Another two buses and a 90 minute commute for a 20km journey. Even a 20 year old trying to attend college or a 22 year living Northside but commuting to somewhere like Sandyford is still going to choose a car.

No issue with cheap public transport for young people but cost is not what will make people choose public transport. It is availability and practicality of public transport that will make them choose it. Look at the delays now facing something like Metro North that has been talked about for 30 years at this stage. This budget measure is just a gimmick when it comes to the real problems facing public transport. 

I would also say the 19-23 year olds in somewhere like Donegal with zero public transport are scratching their heads at this one....


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## RetirementPlan (13 Oct 2021)

Sunny said:


> Didn't we always use public transport if available at 19-23?? I certainly did in Dublin. However, the idea that it might make them think twice about buying a car in later life is laughable. Even in Dublin with it's public transport options, has any Government Minister tried having a family without a car??? Oh I will bring my child swimming. So that's two buses and a 20 minute walk. I will bring my pregnant wife into that hospital appointment. Another two buses and a 90 minute commute for a 20km journey. Even a 20 year old trying to attend college or a 22 year living Northside but commuting to somewhere like Sandyford is still going to choose a car.
> 
> No issue with cheap public transport for young people but cost is not what will make people choose public transport. It is availability and practicality of public transport that will make them choose it. Look at the delays now facing something like Metro North that has been talked about for 30 years at this stage. This budget measure is just a gimmick when it comes to the real problems facing public transport.
> 
> I would also say the 19-23 year olds in somewhere like Donegal with zero public transport are scratching their heads at this one....


We certainly need more and better public transport, and BusConnects will be a big help there, but it's perhaps not all as desperate as you suggest. Anyone buying a car to travel to Sandyford from northside needs their head examined. They should be aiming to get to the Luas, either Cabra or Grangegorman or in the city centre. It's a longish journey, but you'll certainly get more done on the Luas than sitting on the M50.

Needing a car for occasional trips like hospital doesn't necessarily mean owning a car either, with GoCar and other car share schemes gaining significant traction.


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## Sunny (13 Oct 2021)

RetirementPlan said:


> We certainly need more and better public transport, and BusConnects will be a big help there, but it's perhaps not all as desperate as you suggest. Anyone buying a car to travel to Sandyford from northside needs their head examined. They should be aiming to get to the Luas, either Cabra or Grangegorman or in the city centre. It's a longish journey, but you'll certainly get more done on the Luas than sitting on the M50.
> 
> Needing a car for occasional trips like hospital doesn't necessarily mean owning a car either, with GoCar and other car share schemes gaining significant traction.



Yeah because the bus and non-existent train route from somewhere like Swords to Cabra or Grangegorman or even the city centre is great.....

The M50 is painful but still the only option for a lot of commutes.


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## dereko1969 (13 Oct 2021)

Sunny said:


> Didn't we always use public transport if available at 19-23?? I certainly did in Dublin. However, the idea that it might make them think twice about buying a car in later life is laughable. Even in Dublin with it's public transport options, has any Government Minister tried having a family without a car??? Oh I will bring my child swimming. So that's two buses and a 20 minute walk. I will bring my pregnant wife into that hospital appointment. Another two buses and a 90 minute commute for a 20km journey. Even a 20 year old trying to attend college or a 22 year living Northside but commuting to somewhere like Sandyford is still going to choose a car.
> 
> No issue with cheap public transport for young people but cost is not what will make people choose public transport. It is availability and practicality of public transport that will make them choose it. Look at the delays now facing something like Metro North that has been talked about for 30 years at this stage. This budget measure is just a gimmick when it comes to the real problems facing public transport.
> 
> I would also say the 19-23 year olds in somewhere like Donegal with zero public transport are scratching their heads at this one....


There's no obligation on young people to use it.
More girls drive to secondary school than cycle.
Using Donegal as a "sure why bother if it's not going to benefit everyone" is beneath you.
Cost has been cited by a large number of respondents on every survey that's been carried out on Public Transport use, usually tied in to having a car already and the sunk cost of it, if this measure which is costing very little can delay some of those who might otherwise buy a car now then it may help them to view Public Transport in a more favourable light.
Lots of millenials aren't even getting driving licences in urban areas internationally as the cost of insurance, parking, fuel all increase.
What's your solution?


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## RetirementPlan (13 Oct 2021)

Sunny said:


> Yeah because the bus and non-existent train route from somewhere like Swords to Cabra or Grangegorman or even the city centre is great.....
> 
> The M50 is painful but still the only for a lot of communtes.


Everywhere has connections to the city centre, and BusConnects is bringing a lot of radial connections into play too. eBikes are making longer journeys possible and allowing people who need a bit of extra help to cycle too. You'd be mad to drive to Sandyford. I used to cycle over the M50 bridge there regularly at rush hour, always amazed at those who chose to sit or crawl along for their journey.


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## Sunny (13 Oct 2021)

dereko1969 said:


> There's no obligation on young people to use it.
> More girls drive to secondary school than cycle.
> Using Donegal as a "sure why bother if it's not going to benefit everyone" is beneath you.
> Cost has been cited by a large number of respondents on every survey that's been carried out on Public Transport use, usually tied in to having a car already and the sunk cost of it, if this measure which is costing very little can delay some of those who might otherwise buy a car now then it may help them to view Public Transport in a more favourable light.
> ...



A survey on transport policy from 2011. I am sure I can find a more recent one with a bit of research or you can provide one that says cost is the main barrier to people using public transport ahead of availability, reliability and speed. 

Reasons for Not Using Public Transport​The survey asked respondents who used a car as their main mode of transport to identify on a list given to them the reasons for not choosing public transport.  On a EU-wide basis, the four most important reasons were: lack of connections (72%), not as convenient (71%), low frequency (64%), and lack of reliability (54%).  The remaining reasons — too expensive, lack of information on schedules, and security concerns — ranged from 50% to a low importance for security at 40%.   F*or the four most important, the Irish found not as convenient the top reason (at 78%, 7% more than EU average), lack of connections at 71%, low frequency at 67%, and lack of reliability at 62%. * In the UK, 85% found not as convenient the top reason, followed by low frequency at 73%, lack of connections at 71%, and lack of reliability at 70%.


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## Sunny (13 Oct 2021)

RetirementPlan said:


> Everywhere has connections to the city centre, and BusConnects is bringing a lot of radial connections into play too. eBikes are making longer journeys possible and allowing people who need a bit of extra help to cycle too. You'd be mad to drive to Sandyford. I used to cycle over the M50 bridge there regularly at rush hour, always amazed at those who chose to sit or crawl along for their journey.



A bus from Swords into the City Centre that leaves on the Northside takes up a hour or even more some times. You then need to get to the luas stop and get the luas to Sandyford from where you then need to walk to your office. It can take up to 2 hours. I did it for two years using both public transport and driving some days. The M50 was by far the better option. As far as I know there are still only two 24 hour routes. Bus Connects is only starting so we are still miles away from public transport bringing everyone into the city centre to get to another part of Dublin. 

There is no problem with making fares cheaper for young people but when it comes to public transport usage, there are bigger issues. Even without this fare reduction, using public transport was way cheaper than buying and running a car. So why do people think that people of this age will suddenly run to public transport? The people who could use public transport were already using it. This does nothing to help people where public transport is not an option.


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## Sunny (13 Oct 2021)

dereko1969 said:


> More girls drive to secondary school than cycle.


What is the source of that extraordinary statement??? I presume you mean driven by the parents??? And I presume that in all cases people are choosing driving over public transport??? You might think I was being flippant by talking about Donegal but I wasn't. And the same for large parts of the Country. Public transport is simply not an option.


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## Purple (13 Oct 2021)

RetirementPlan said:


> We certainly need more and better public transport, and BusConnects will be a big help there, but it's perhaps not all as desperate as you suggest. Anyone buying a car to travel to Sandyford from northside needs their head examined. They should be aiming to get to the Luas, either Cabra or Grangegorman or in the city centre. It's a longish journey, but you'll certainly get more done on the Luas than sitting on the M50.


Many parents have to drop kids to school/cheche/minders and collect them in the evenings. I used to cycle to work but I'm now dropping two teenagers to schools and a bus in the morning. My daughter used to get the bus to school but she was leaving the house at 7.15 to be in for 8.30 and at least once a week the bus was late. It's 10 minutes out of my way to drop her. My son gets the bus from Dublin to Maynooth every morning (no accommodation available there) so an hour plus each way is enough without a 25 minute walk to the bus stop. 
So now instead of a 10.5Km cycle through town I have a 25Km journey around the M50. 
Public transport is way slower than driving or cycling and my last option. It would take me at least and hour and a half on busses. I could walk it in a little more than that.


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## Baby boomer (13 Oct 2021)

RetirementPlan said:


> It's a longish journey, but you'll certainly get more done on the Luas than sitting on the M50.


Are you serious?  It's not realistically possible to do any work on the Luas.  Before I retired, I drove all the time (multiple clients / locations) and the commute passed away easily with calls to be made and returned.  Couldn't really do that on the Luas!


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## dereko1969 (14 Oct 2021)

Sunny said:


> What is the source of that extraordinary statement??? I presume you mean driven by the parents??? And I presume that in all cases people are choosing driving over public transport??? You might think I was being flippant by talking about Donegal but I wasn't. And the same for large parts of the Country. Public transport is simply not an option.


The CSO - and no, it's not being driven it's driving themselves. And it is extraordinary but sadly true.


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## Purple (14 Oct 2021)

dereko1969 said:


> The CSO - and no, it's not being driven it's driving themselves. And it is extraordinary but sadly true.


My daughters loved cycling when they were small but stopped when they got to about 12. 
The ridiculous insistence in so many schools that girls wear skirts as part of their school uniform must be a factor.


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## dereko1969 (14 Oct 2021)

Purple said:


> My daughters loved cycling when they were small but stopped when they got to about 12.
> The ridiculous insistence in so many schools that girls wear skirts as part of their school uniform must be a factor.


Yeah it's one of the factors alright, there's a massive drop off in girls cycling from primary to secondary. The whole pressure on them to look a certain way - not have "helmet hair" etc, there's been stories of girls wearing trousers on their bikes (with their skirts in bags) and then planning to change inside but teachers reporting them for being on school property in the wrong uniform!
This gender imbalance then continues after school, which is why most bikes sold in this country are "racers" rather than the Dutch style which would be much more useful in Dublin and other urban centres.


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## Allpartied (14 Oct 2021)

If we were serious about promoting public transport,........









						Luxembourg makes all public transport free
					

Luxembourg suffers from major traffic jams, so the government plans to make public transportation free for everyone in the tiny European state.




					www.google.com


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## Purple (14 Oct 2021)

Allpartied said:


> If we were serious about promoting public transport,........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We're not a big enough tax haven to have that sort of stuff.


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## odyssey06 (14 Oct 2021)

I'll give them an A on the grounds of clever politicking, think of all the votes Charlie got from his free bus passes for the elderly...

But I'd rather have seen the budget for this go on new bus routes, new train carriages etc


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## Paul O Mahoney (14 Oct 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> I'll give them an A on the grounds of clever politicking, think of all the votes Charlie got from his free bus passes for the elderly...
> 
> But I'd rather have seen the budget for this go on new bus routes, new train carriages etc


I thought the EU were paying for this, as it's a pan European initiative? I'll stand corrected btw.


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## odyssey06 (14 Oct 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I thought the EU were paying for this, as it's a pan European initiative? I'll stand corrected btw.


I think the card is an EU wide scheme, but the level of discount is funded here.

_A total of €25 million was announced for youth travel cards as part of the Budget today along with a €1.4 billion package to upgrade the public transport system.  Currently, student fares are up to 30% cheaper than adult fares. Today’s announcement means the discount will be bumped up to 50% from next year_









						Discounted public transport fares for 19 to 23 year olds announced as part of Budget
					

A 50% discount on fares will be rolled out by the middle of 2022.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## Peanuts20 (14 Oct 2021)

This is just going to be a new Leap card for 19-23's with new fares. The €25m being spent on this would not buy a lot of buses or trains. I expect some of this money will be used to compensate the Transport Operators for any lost of revenue

the $1.4b will cover the capital expenditure overall including upgrading the ticketing equipment and allowing for phones/credit/debit cards to be used as well as the additional buses and trains


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## RetirementPlan (15 Oct 2021)

Purple said:


> My daughters loved cycling when they were small but stopped when they got to about 12.
> The ridiculous insistence in so many schools that girls wear skirts as part of their school uniform must be a factor.





dereko1969 said:


> Yeah it's one of the factors alright, there's a massive drop off in girls cycling from primary to secondary. The whole pressure on them to look a certain way - not have "helmet hair" etc, there's been stories of girls wearing trousers on their bikes (with their skirts in bags) and then planning to change inside but teachers reporting them for being on school property in the wrong uniform!
> This gender imbalance then continues after school, which is why most bikes sold in this country are "racers" rather than the Dutch style which would be much more useful in Dublin and other urban centres.


Skirts, helmet hair, being shouted at by male drivers and boys, lack of safe locking facilities and lack of lockers or changing facilities



			https://mobile.twitter.com/rtenews/status/1174696792212029441
		


We're training the next generation to be dependent and probably obese.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (15 Oct 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> The €25m being spent on this would not buy a lot of buses or trains.


€25m a year could quite radically improve services even in somewhere as big as Limerick. It would fully fund purchase and running costs of maybe 50 buses.

I spent a lot of time aged 19 to 23 on the CIÉ group's slow and unreliable services. My main complaint at the time was not the price, but that buses that wouldn't show up and trains that were frequently cancelled.


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## Purple (15 Oct 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> €25m a year could quite radically improve services even in somewhere as big as Limerick. It would fully fund purchase and running costs of maybe 50 buses.
> 
> I spent a lot of time aged 19 to 23 on the CIÉ group's slow and unreliable services. My main complaint at the time was not the price, but that buses that wouldn't show up and trains that were frequently cancelled.


I used to get the Train between Dublin and Sligo when I was a student. After about a month I found out that there was a private bus from town every Sunday night that was almost half the price and 45 minutes faster.


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## odyssey06 (15 Oct 2021)

Purple said:


> I used to get the Train between Dublin and Sligo when I was a student. After about a month I found out that there was a private bus from town every Sunday night that was almost half the price and 45 minutes faster.


Yes thats what normal people do


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## Leo (15 Oct 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> €25m a year could quite radically improve services even in somewhere as big as Limerick. It would fully fund purchase and running costs of maybe 50 buses.
> 
> I spent a lot of time aged 19 to 23 on the CIÉ group's slow and unreliable services. My main complaint at the time was not the price, but that buses that wouldn't show up and trains that were frequently cancelled.



It's about 2.5% of the current annual running cost of the public system. You'd need to concentrate is somewhere smaller then Limerick to make a radical difference.


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## Purple (15 Oct 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> Yes thats what normal people do


My son gets the bus from Dublin to Maynooth every day. That's a private service as well. €35 for a weekly ticket. I can't see that getting reduced.


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## Sunny (15 Oct 2021)

I would have thought 25m spent on security and disability services in public transport would have made a much bigger difference to public transport users including young adults than this measure. Every day, I see young wheelchair users having to be helped by staff because lifts are broken or some other reason. Again, I have no objection to reducing the fares for young adults but I don't see what difference it will make. I know people who qualify for 48% savings on public transport through taxsaver and still don't use it for numerous reasons. Having lived in a few different countries including the UK, public transport is not expensive in this Country. There have been huge improvements in the quality of public transport as well but we are still miles away from where we need to be. Measures like this don't do anything to address that. And that's even forgetting what 25m could do for making cycling and walking safer.


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## Purple (15 Oct 2021)

Sunny said:


> Every day, I see young wheelchair users having to be helped by staff because lifts are broken or some other reason.


The offices of a big property management company is close to where I work. They park their cars with all 4 wheels on the footpath, making it impossible for wheelchair users to pass. Maybe a bit of enforcement of current laws would help too.


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