# Diesel Price VS Petrol



## werner (18 Mar 2008)

The price of diesel per litre is now in many garages 10 cents more expensive than petrol.

The wholesaler/Garage pays less excise duty in the region of 9 cents a litre to the government so it is even more profitable for a garage to sell diesel

As an indirect consequence of Min John Gormleys utter incompetence in adjusting the VRT rates in a fair manner, the (VRT rates post July now favour diesel engined cars) the motorist is now being ripped off by garages charging a higher diesel price to take advantage of the switch to diesel engines.

It's not much use shopping around as they are all at it

Is there a regulator with teeth that will address this issue?

What do you think?


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## shnaek (18 Mar 2008)

It is amazing that it has gone from being 10 cent cheaper to 10 cent dearer in the space of months. I was the ejit who bought a diesel last year so I'm being screwed every way!!


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## hjrdee (18 Mar 2008)

As someone who works in the oil industry I can tell you the forecourts are not making 10 cent more on Diesel than on Petrol! The difference in the forecourt purchase price bewteen the two is less than 1 cent, and the Diesel is more expensive.  Its the big oil companies who import the oil who may be making the profits but I certainly know some forecourts who are now even making 1.5cent a litre on Diesel and Petrol at the moment...


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## joe sod (18 Mar 2008)

i think its got to do with the way oil is refined, both petrol and diesel are formed in the refining process, (im not an expert but im pretty sure this is the case), therefore even if there is more demand for diesel , they still have to make petrol also, because europe has alot of diesel cars, they have to import the extra diesel from the US as they don't use as much of it there and export the extra petrol to the US, it seems a bit silly as you are wasting fuel moving it around like this, maybe best to stick with petrol


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## Simeon (18 Mar 2008)

AFAIK the price is high because of overconsumption in N America - due to the very cold winter. It is being routed to the domestic heating market. In lots of the north eastern states this winter is the worst since records began.


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## BillK (18 Mar 2008)

price for diesel over here in England has been higher for years and is currently about £1.12 per litre (sterling)


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## BillK (19 Mar 2008)

Just to update yesterday's post, the cost of diesel is now £1.17 per litre at the same filling station which was yesterday's subject.


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## Pique318 (20 Mar 2008)

If some forecourts are just making 1.5c/l on fuel, then how come a place near me is selling fuel for 5c/l less than the others ? Is he making a 3.5c/l loss? Doubtful ! He's not on the main roads but all the locals know it exists. He also sells kero and agri diesel.

How is it that the prices are sticky? ie when the crude goes up, the pump prices go up instantly, but whe crude drops , it takes a few days for the pump prices to drop, and never to the same extent ?


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## xavier (20 Mar 2008)

Whatever rubbish is put up as an excuse the simple fact is that oil is traded in $ and yet the $ has collapsed against the €. Why have we not seen this reality reflected in fuel prices?


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## ubiquitous (20 Mar 2008)

xavier said:


> Whatever rubbish is put up as an excuse the simple fact is that oil is traded in $ and yet the $ has collapsed against the €. Why have we not seen this reality reflected in fuel prices?



We have. Fuel prices (net of the very high tax component therein) have not moved upwards in correlation with the fall of the dollar.


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## shnaek (20 Mar 2008)

Well, fuel prices fell significantly today:
http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0320/oil.html?rss
so I am sure we'll see them going down as quickly as they went up in the last few weeks...


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## Pique318 (20 Mar 2008)

shnaek said:


> Well, fuel prices fell significantly today:
> http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0320/oil.html?rss
> so I am sure we'll see them going down as quickly as they went up in the last few weeks...



Ha, you're funny !


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## Glenbhoy (24 Mar 2008)

shnaek said:


> It is amazing that it has gone from being 10 cent cheaper to 10 cent dearer in the space of months. I was the ejit who bought a diesel last year so I'm being screwed every way!!


yeah the implementation of the new vrt and road tax schemes is a total disaster for you (not to mention illogical), however at least you're getting a lot more miles to your gallon of diesel.


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## RMCF (24 Mar 2008)

The changes in the price of diesel over recent months have just proved to me that price fixing exists in the Irish forecourts.

A couple of days ago, within 15 miles of each other in Donegal, I saw one petrol station where diesel was 8c per litre LESS than unleaded, yet another where it was 9c MORE than unleaded.

For years before diesel was ALWAYS less than unleaded. ALWAYS.


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## shnaek (25 Mar 2008)

Glenbhoy said:


> yeah the implementation of the new vrt and road tax schemes is a total disaster for you (not to mention illogical), however at least you're getting a lot more miles to your gallon of diesel.



That is true - it is amazing how much more efficient diesel is alright. 

On the other hand - I wonder can I sell my car to myself after June, and thus take advantage of the new road tax scheme - or does it only apply to brand new vehicles?


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## Glenbhoy (25 Mar 2008)

shnaek said:


> That is true - it is amazing how much more efficient diesel is alright.
> 
> On the other hand - I wonder can I sell my car to myself after June, and thus take advantage of the new road tax scheme - or does it only apply to brand new vehicles?


Nah, unfortunately as it currently stands the new road tax rates will only be applicable to cars registered for the first time in this country after July 1st 2008, ie all new cars and second hand imports.


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## ubiquitous (25 Mar 2008)

RMCF said:


> The changes in the price of diesel over recent months have just proved to me that price fixing exists in the Irish forecourts.
> 
> A couple of days ago, within 15 miles of each other in Donegal, I saw one petrol station where diesel was 8c per litre LESS than unleaded, yet another where it was 9c MORE than unleaded.
> 
> For years before diesel was ALWAYS less than unleaded. ALWAYS.



How does this prove price-fixing? I would have thought that price-fixing would mean that prices are the same (or very similar) everywhere. Significant variations in prices between two outlets would suggest the exact opposite, ie that one guy has cut his diesel price to the bone to generate custom and another guy has done the same in respect of his petrol price.


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## Glenbhoy (25 Mar 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> How does this prove price-fixing? I would have thought that price-fixing would mean that prices are the same (or very similar) everywhere. Significant variations in prices between two outlets would suggest the exact opposite, ie that one guy has cut his diesel price to the bone to generate custom and another guy has done the same in respect of his petrol price.


What I've noticed in border filling stations is that their prices are normally pretty similar, but that the further one gets from the border, the lower the price - interesting, isn't it.


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## ubiquitous (25 Mar 2008)

Glenbhoy said:


> What I've noticed in border filling stations is that their prices are normally pretty similar, but that the further one gets from the border, the lower the price - interesting, isn't it.



This is a fact of life and reflects the willingness of northerners to pay relatively higher prices here as these will still be way cheaper than what they are paying north of the border. The exact opposite phenomenon happened in the 1980s when fuel was cheaper in the north than the south.

It still doesn't prove price-fixing. If you are running a filling station and your nearest competitor is charging a very high prices, then it might make sense for you to undercut him slightly. It won't pay you to cut prices to the bone.

One issue that many people miss in such discussions is the tendency nowadays for one entity to own multiple filling stations. For example, 3 of the top 4 filling stations around Cavan town are owned by one individual. In such a scenario, it is easy for an owner to legally squeeze maximum profits out of several outlets by setting similar prices at each one, without having ever to illegally fix prices with other operators.


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## Glenbhoy (25 Mar 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> It still doesn't prove price-fixing. If you are running a filling station and your nearest competitor is charging a very high prices, then it might make sense for you to undercut him slightly. It won't pay you to cut prices to the bone.


That is what one would expect alright, the reality is, it doesn't happen - proximity to the border means that there is plenty of business to keep everyone happy.  I don't have a problem with it myself, I won't buy my diesel there as I know I'll get it cheaper in Dublin, others travelling from the north are quite to happy to pay the price as it's still a significant saving for them.  
Whilst cartels may be illegal there appears to be a tacit understanding in many industries that competition should be non-price.

I heard a lady who owns one of the stations on a radio programme justify the price discrepancy (which can be over 10c per litre) by saying that they provide attendants (neglecting to point out that the attendants are employed to ensure efficient throughput of the queues coming over the border).


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## werner (26 Mar 2008)

Lodge a complaint here and see if you can get a positive reaction

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Working_With_You/Submit_a_Consumer_Complaint/


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## ubiquitous (26 Mar 2008)

Making a complaint to the NCA about the price of diesel is absolutely pointless. They have no more control over market forces in the oil/diesel market than they have to stop the tides.


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## werner (26 Mar 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Making a complaint to the NCA about the price of diesel is absolutely pointless. They have no more control over market forces in the oil/diesel market than they have to stop the tides.


 
Do you really believe it is only market forces?

I don't


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## ubiquitous (26 Mar 2008)

Do you have any proof otherwise?

I don't


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## werner (26 Mar 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Do you have any proof otherwise?
> 
> I don't


 

Bearing in mind the legal warnings that I respect on this forum I don't believe it would be wise to post publically


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## teachai (14 May 2008)

How about starting a RIP-Off Diesel Thread.  

For the last few months my local tesco Petrol Station has had Diesel Prices the same as Petrol prices.

2 Weeks ago, the cost was  €1.11.9  per Litre for Both petrol and diesel.
Last week it was €1.15.9 for both Petrol and Diesel.
This morning it was €1.20.9 for Diesel and €1.18.9 for Petrol.

Lets name and shame the garages that Charge More for Diesel than for petrol and maybe give a rating as how big a rip-off it is. 
At the same time we could have recommended garages to fill up from.

Theres 1 garage on the N11 charging a full 11c more per litre for Diesel than petrol.   In fact his basic petrol price is more than most diesel prices.

Its strange that the two garages in Kilmacanogue (across the road from each other) always have exactly the same prices.


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## Purple (14 May 2008)

teachai said:


> Its strange that the two garages in Kilmacanogue (across the road from each other) always have exactly the same prices.


Surely this is just a sign of competition within the local market?
Since both stations are in the same area it is reasonable to presume that they have a similar cost base.


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## z104 (14 May 2008)

Should the government reduce the tax take on Diesel/Petrol? What is the percentage they take?

If inflation is important to keep down then is this not an easy way of doing it.


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## Purple (14 May 2008)

Have a look here for a pdf on how prices are arrived at for petrol and diesel in Ireland. The pdf was not opening for me earlier but I cound open it in html format.


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## BillK (14 May 2008)

I don't think there is a garage in England that charges less for diesel than petrol. All those that I pass charge approximately 8p (sterling ) more per litre.


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## joe sod (15 May 2008)

Its got to do with the way oil is refined, refineries are geared to make petrol and diesel, and i think it is impossible just to make diesel as they are taken off at different stages in the refining process, i think it is a stupid policy to encourage more domestic cars to use diesel , diesel is critical for agriculture and freight transportation, trucks etc, if the price of diesel is pushed up because of use in cars, then it will add further upward pressure to food prices, both from production and transportation


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## shnaek (15 May 2008)

Diesel is more expensive than petrol in every station that I have passed in the last month. It's over 133 now here in Cork.


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## teachai (16 May 2008)

Purple said:


> Surely this is just a sign of competition within the local market?
> Since both stations are in the same area it is reasonable to presume that they have a similar cost base.



Well they used to compete against each other about 3 years ago. Ie there was a different price on one side of the road than the other. 

You would think that at one time you would actually see a variation in price, if true competition existed. I believe there is an unwritten agreement to match prices between the two stations.


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## shnaek (27 May 2008)

Diesel prices are going crazy at the moment. In most places it's now above €1.40 a litre! How did we get from a situation where it was about 10% cheaper than petrol to now, where it is 10% dearer, in the space of a few months?
That, combined with the greens screwing anyone who currently drives an environmentally friendly car is making me wonder why I changed to diesel at all! 
Do ye reckon diesel prices will remain higher than petrol, or is there any light on the horizon? Truckers are protesting in the UK and France, and fishermen are too. Can anything be done about diesel prices?


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## joe sod (27 May 2008)

Yes if cars go back to using petrol, smaller economical petrol cars, everything was in balance opto this point, it is a huge mistake to encourage cars to use diesel, this is because diesel is essential for transportation, agriculture, fishing mining, etc, it is not essential for cars where petrol can also be used, the big secret in all this is that petrol has to be made anyway, there is a certain amount of perol and diesel in every barrel of oil which is extrracted at refining, you cannot just make all diesel, the maxol spokesman said this on RTE news, a certain number of products are in every barrel of oil including petrol and diesel, for some reason people are not taking this in, they refuse to believe it is this basic


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