# Why does Ireland seem to be doing better than the UK?



## Brendan Burgess

A good article here 








						Coronavirus: Why is the Irish death rate lower than the UK’s?
					

The difference may be due to factors other than the introduction of measures to delay spread




					www.irishtimes.com
				




The death rates per 100,000 are twice as high in the UK.

It's too early to say, but there are some of the factors: 

1) We stopped mass gatherings such as the St Patrick's Day Parade while they went ahead with Cheltenham. 
2) There is more inward travel to the UK, so they got their first case earlier -“With doubling times of every 2-3 days, even a later introduction of the first infections by a week can have a very large effect.” he added. – 
3) So the UK has more cases and therefore more deaths
4) 83% of the UK population live in urban areas, compared to 63% in Ireland
5) 18% of the UK population is over 65 compared to 13% in Ireland
6) The UK has a higher proportion of Black, Asian and minority ethnic communities, who are at higher risk. 

No mention of BCG which I think was much more prevalent in Ireland. 

Brendan


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## Peanuts

It was said on the news tonight that the figures from N. Ireland for Covid 19 deaths did not include nursing home deaths whereas  the RoI figures do. I don't know if it's the same across the UK but if it was it would indicate the UK figures are even higher.


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## Wahaay

I've yet to see any evidence that the three major events often cited - Cheltenham, the Liverpool game and the Stereophonics gig - have contributed significantly to the UK's C-19 rates.
And people forget the UK had stay at home orders in place four days before Ireland.
But the other factors mentioned in the article are very significant as well as population density which is much lighter here ( 186 per sq mile ) compared with the UK ( 671 per sq mile overall with England being even higher ).
In fact comparisons between the two countries are like comparing apples with pears - if we compared Ireland with somewhere slightly more similar such as New Zealand Ireland doesn't fare as well.
Even the timing of the comparison is pointless - let's wait until it's all over and the research is in before drawing definitive conclusions.


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## Peanuts20

Population density, public transport usage was a big part. However I also can't help but think that the "we're british" attitude also contributed, certainly after speaking to a lot of UK colleagues over the last month on calls, it took them far longer to realise this was serious then it did for us to do so..


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## Leo

Times article here discussing some of the possibilities. Coverage in the BBC and elsewhere over the last couple of days confirm that that UK numbers do not include nursing home data.


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## Wahaay

Peanuts20 said:


> Population density, public transport usage was a big part. However I also can't help but think that the "we're british" attitude also contributed, certainly after speaking to a lot of UK colleagues over the last month on calls, it took them far longer to realise this was serious then it did for us to do so..




This is fertile Fintan O'Toole territory who only last week linked C-19 to Brexit.
I doubt medical and scientific experts in the UK took it any less seriously than here in Ireland because they once had an empire.
Anecdotal evidence like this really is useless because I could point to many Irish people I know who had a similar  relaxed attitude at the beginning.
It's worth remembering the UK introduced stay at home orders four days before Ireland.
Anyway,early days yet.Let's see how the figures compare in three months time.


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## Seagull

Getting back on topic - it could simply be linked into the testing strategies. The initial plan here was that anyone showing cold/flu-like symptoms should go for testing. Then that was tightened to only if you had significant fever. How does the rate of positive tests here compare to the UK?

Given the change to the testing strategy, one thing you can be sure of is that there is significant under-reporting of the number of infected people.


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## Brendan Burgess

Folks

Please do not respond to off topic comments.

You are wasting your time, and more importantly, mine. 

Brendan


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## dubman1

In Northern Italy ,in parts of Spain and the UK population density means apartment blocks and high rise ones too. Shared facilities,such as lifts ,common access  and egress,close proximity in all these and in corridors must increase risk of infection.
It was notable last night on TV3 a doctor (an Epidemiologist I think) stated that immigrant groups such as Roma and Brazilians living in the centre of Dublin have some of the highest rates of infection.He said people are living on top of one another in city centre accomodation and inferred this was a reason it was the worst cluster in the State.
So perhaps population density and apartment blocks in the UK are where the biggest clusters are.


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## Purple

Half our deaths are in care/nursing homes. The UK is not reporting those figures. What is the real number of deaths in the UK?


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## EmmDee

Purple said:


> Half our deaths are in care/nursing homes. The UK is not reporting those figures. What is the real number of deaths in the UK?



There was an interesting analysis earlier this week in the UK. The reported deaths overall in the UK jumped about 6k above the expected level in the first couple of weeks in March (I think). They compared to the Covid reported deaths at the same time and it looked something like 3.5k Covid reported deaths with about 2.5k unexpected increase not attributed. So possibly about the same as us which, if true, would mean the actual death rate to date would be >20k


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## Wahaay

Statistics can be used in different ways.
As this graph by Sky's Ed Conway shows in per capita terms Ireland's death rate is worse than the USA's and not far off the UK's but then the UK figures don't include nusery and care home deaths.


			https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1250423249734750211
		

The official reason for these deaths not being included immediately in the daily figures is that they take longer to gather as stats are collated from coroners' offices etc.


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## RedOnion

Wahaay said:


> As this graph by Sky's Ed Conway shows in per capita terms Ireland's death rate is worse than the USA's and not far off the UK's


We're way behind the UK in deaths per capita. That's a log scale graph you're looking at.


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## EmmDee

Wahaay said:


> Statistics can be used in different ways.
> As this graph by Sky's Ed Conway shows in per capita terms Ireland's death rate is worse than the USA's and not far off the UK's but then the UK figures don't include nusery and care home deaths.
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1250423249734750211
> 
> 
> The official reason for these deaths not being included immediately in the daily figures is that they take longer to gather as stats are collated from coroners' offices etc.



Again, raw data is difficult. Rate per capita analysis is misleading. It will, at least initially, skew results to show lower population countries with a higher rating. The reason being that the total population is irrelevant in the initial stages because the absolute numbers in a city like Dublin will be similar to any other city. It is only as the spread goes into the wider population that the per capita analysis becomes clearer.

The data analysis guy from the FT has a whole topic why they don't spend a lot of time on per capita rates.


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## Purple

RedOnion said:


> We're way behind the UK in deaths per capita. That's a log scale graph you're looking at.


The UK, Spain and Italy seem to only be reporting their deaths in hospitals. Their true figures could be 50%-100% higher.


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## seamus m

Our own death rate is also a little sceptical due to lack of testing we are now recording 155 heart attack deaths per day 100 above normal


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## mathepac

In simple terms, we seem to be doing better than the UK because no country in the world seems to be doing worse. Predictions indicate that true figures for the UK will be worse than Italy's or the US's. True infection and death rates aren't available for the UK because deaths and infections outside hospitals are not being included in the overall figures.

So why the comparison with the worst in class? Is it because the true figures for Ireland are worse than those being released at daily PR fiestas? Rumours, and I stress rumours, of causes of death being falsified, infection rates in care homes being hidden even from families of infected residents, the HSE's on-going refusal to engage with possible producers of PPE and other useful kit while staff report shortages and far from ideal practices.   Yesterday too may news outlets were carrying too many similar stories for it to be coincidence.

If we believe we are at war with this virus, then I think we need to accept Churchill's statement that the first victim of war is truth. He'd have known.


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## mathepac

BBC 1 news quoting newspaper  sources said this morning that the care-home deaths many total as many as 7,500 lives lost.


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## Brendan Burgess

mathepac said:


> we seem to be doing better than the UK because no country in the world seems to be doing worse.



That is a really good way of looking at it. 

So is there a league table of countries to assess how well they are doing?


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## Eireog007

Brendan Burgess said:


> That is a really good way of looking at it.
> 
> So is there a league table of countries to assess how well they are doing?



Ok first off there are other countries doing worse than the UK in pretty much any measurable category. This is also to be taken with a mountain of salt as the stats from pretty much anywhere are being updated and revised all the time. This is an unprecedented scenario which there is no rule book for. In fact Belgium has the worst death rate per head of population once you ignore the countries with very small populations which skew results and very few people are aware of this.
Here is a link to a site which is showing the most comprehensive overview of the figures world wide by country and by death, infection, recovery and test rates among others.









						COVID Live Update: 142,072,345 Cases and 3,034,587 Deaths from the Coronavirus - Worldometer
					

Live statistics and coronavirus news tracking the number of confirmed cases, recovered patients, tests, and death toll due to the COVID-19 coronavirus from Wuhan, China. Coronavirus counter with new cases, deaths, and number of tests per 1 Million population. Historical data and info. Daily...




					www.worldometers.info


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## joer

This is a great site in looking at where every country is on this ,unwanted, table. It is not too long ago that Ireland and Denmark were neck and neck. Ireland are now 19th but will rise one or two places when todays figures are released. Denmark are now 31st. This is always assuming that the figures are accurate and genuine.


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## Eireog007

joer said:


> This is a great site in looking at where every country is on this ,unwanted, table. It is not too long ago that Ireland and Denmark were neck and neck. Ireland are now 19th but will rise one or two places when todays figures are released. Denmark are now 31st. This is always assuming that the figures are accurate and genuine.



Considering that we are one of the few countries who seem to be including deaths in care facilities as well as hospital settings I would be sceptical of how high we are up the list in reality. I’m good news we are rather high up the test per million of population list and climbing swiftly.


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## seamus m

Belgium have counted every death outside hospitals  and also every probable covid death (ones not yet tested showing all sythoms and cases tested but no results back) .They are looking at remodeling to be more like  the rest. Personally I'd prefer to go their route .The UK are not counting deaths outside hospitals,hard to compare anyone to them.


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## Eireog007

seamus m said:


> Belgium have counted every death outside hospitals  and also every probable covid death (ones not yet tested showing all sythoms and cases tested but no results back) .They are looking at remodeling to be more like  the rest. Personally I'd prefer to go their route .The UK are not counting deaths outside hospitals,hard to compare anyone to them.



This is the exact reason that it’s pointless comparing and contrasting almost any country. The differences in population density, testing rates, criteria for declaring a death Covid related etc make comparison an interesting approach but are pointless if looking for an accurate representation.


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## joer

You would have to ask why is the testing methods , test results and information that is coming out not the same for every country. What is  there to be gained otherwise.


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## Eireog007

joer said:


> You would have to ask why is the testing methods , test results and information that is coming out not the same for every country. What is  there to be gained otherwise.



A variety of reasons from each country following their own internal medical advice which will differ in the best approach to fighting the pandemic to some countries with less democratic oversight wanting to artificially reduce the figures to avoid backlash from the population.


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## mathepac

Maybe Greenland is a country we could learn from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/greenland/


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## 24601

mathepac said:


> Maybe Greenland is a country we could learn from https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/greenland/



Yes, maybe we should become a geographically isolated part of the arctic circle with the lowest population density on earth.


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## mathepac

"Learn from" is a different concept to "becoming" them and while seven countries lie partially or wholly within the Arctic circle i.e. Norway, Finland, Sweden, Russia, the United States, Denmark and Canada, you should note that Greenland is not one of them.

I take it then you no opportunities for our health services to learn from others, even those with a 100% recovery record, during a pandemic where the state of the art is to "make it up as we go along", to paraphrase the experts?


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## RedOnion

mathepac said:


> while seven countries lie partially or wholly within the Arctic circle i.e. Norway, Finland, Sweden, Russia, the United States, Denmark and Canada, you should note that Greenland is not one of them.


Denmark inside the Artic circle? You do realise that Greenland is the part of Denmark that's within the Artic circle??... Have a look at a map.


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## 24601

mathepac said:


> "Learn from" is a different concept to "becoming" them and while seven countries lie partially or wholly within the Arctic circle i.e. Norway, Finland, Sweden, Russia, the United States, Denmark and Canada, you should note that Greenland is not one of them.
> 
> I take it then you no opportunities for our health services to learn from others, even those with a 100% recovery record, during a pandemic where the state of the art is to "make it up as we go along", to paraphrase the experts?



Greenland is nearly entirely within the arctic circle. It also has a similar population to Waterford City. Its geography and demography renders it a totally pointless comparison.


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## mathepac

24601 said:


> Greenland is nearly entirely within the arctic circle.


Apologies, could never tell Greenland and Iceland apart.


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## Peanuts

There's a very interesting thread on Twitter comparing how the different countries are recording the death rates.
It suggests that we are reporting them in accordance with WHO guideline's and currently have approx. 141 deaths/m Pop.
If we were to report them as the UK are (counting hospital deaths only) our rate drops to 43.94/m.
If we were to report them as Austria and other countries are (omitting nursing homes and comorbidity) our rate drops to 7.91 /m.

This suggests that other countries have significantly higher death rates than they are reporting.


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## Ceist Beag

Another interesting thread on Twitter from Dr Gabriel Scally shows that the number of testing centres in the UK is vastly less than we have here. 46 test centres or 9 per million of population here. 27 test centres of 0.4 per million of population in the UK. That's some difference! I don't know how they expect to ever relax restrictions there with so little testing.
Of course this does only focus on the number of test centres. What is the testing volume being carried out in the UK daily compared to Ireland? According to the BBC it is 21000 a day. Here there is capacity for 7000 a day. So even there, the capacity in the UK is way short of what it is here. Really it should be closer to 100000 per day.


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## Sophrosyne

Another point about comparisons is that countries don't always make it clear whether reported tests refer to the number of tests carried out or the number of people tested. Some counties, such as the UK, report both.

For instance, the UK test figures as at 9am April 22 show cumulative total tests = 559,935. People tested = 411,192.


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## lff12

Seagull said:


> Getting back on topic - it could simply be linked into the testing strategies. The initial plan here was that anyone showing cold/flu-like symptoms should go for testing. Then that was tightened to only if you had significant fever. How does the rate of positive tests here compare to the UK?
> 
> Given the change to the testing strategy, one thing you can be sure of is that there is significant under-reporting of the number of infected people.



6% positive initially, reduced to about 25-35% once testing restricted. Hard to imagine what it might look like now with expanded case definition.

And as this is an ongoing scenario data is incomplete and judging on numbers alone might not give a complete picture.


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## Purple

We are currently using tests to confirm that people who seem to have it actually have it.
In time, particularly as antibody tests become more readily available, we will move to testing populations to see what the rate of infection is. At the moment our testing tells us nothing from an epidemiological perspective.


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## DeeKie

Purple said:


> We are currently using tests to confirm that people who seem to have it actually have it.
> In time, particularly as antibody tests become more readily available, we will move to testing populations to see what the rate of infection is. At the moment our testing tells us nothing from an epidemiological perspective.


Yes. The vast majority I hear about in Dublin as having had it haven’t been tested.


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## mathepac

Yet another reason why comparisons between ourselves and the UK are a bad idea.  The UK now heads the European table for deaths from the Coronavirus, despite the fact that their numbers exclude deaths in care homes for England and perhaps even Wales. England has passed Italy in numbers of COVID-19 deaths. Both countries  have similar populations and various parts of the Brit establishment still insist their numbers are better despite acknowledging that the numbers in the UK and many other European countries are merely estimates, underestimates in the UK's case.

Switzerland appears to be doing well, but who knows? Lies, damned lies and statistics.  https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0505/1136552-coronavirus-uk/


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## Wahaay

Lies, damned lies and statistics indeed.
The UK has been including care homes deaths in their daily figures since last Wednesday.Italy doesn't include all these figures.
The UK also include deaths in the wider community, i.e. deaths at home, which many other countries don't.
But you're right, comparisons at this stage are worthless.


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## mathepac

Another reason to avoid any comparisons with  UK performance was reported in The Guardian and on the BBC news, unsure of other outlets.  The NHS has managed to outdo the HSE in buying unusable rubbish masquerading as PPE.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-flown-from-turkey-for-nhs-fail-uk-standards


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## Wahaay

mathepac said:


> Another reason to avoid any comparisons with  UK performance was reported in The Guardian and on the BBC news, unsure of other outlets.  The NHS has managed to outdo the HSE in buying unusable rubbish masquerading as PPE.  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...s-flown-from-turkey-for-nhs-fail-uk-standards



It's a common problem ...









						Coronavirus: HSE says 20% of delivered protective equipment is unsuitable
					

HSE chief executive Paul Reid says number of tests to rise to 4,500 per day from this week




					www.irishtimes.com
				












						Faulty masks. Flawed tests. China's quality control problem in leading global COVID-19 fight
					

Chinese companies producing faulty testing kits and masks are marring Beijing's attempts to assert leadership in the fight against the coronavirus.




					www.latimes.com
				




www.news18.com/news/india/made-in-china-over-50000-protective-wear-for-medics-junked-by-india-all-donated-by-big-firms-2579533.html


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## mathepac

Our [UK] numbers are rubbish estimates, "underestimates" to quote the source, despite adding an arbitrary 5,000 for deaths outside hospitals last Wednesday.  The previous lowest estimate I saw published for deaths outside hospitals was between 6,000 and  7,500.

Despite admitting that the numbers are not fit for comparison, or for any other rational purpose, they go on to make the comparisons, which are of course  meaningless, but fill newspaper column inches, news bulletins and make the mouth-pieces look all scientific when introducing pretty graphs.









						Coronavirus deaths: how does Britain compare with other countries? | David Spiegelhalter
					

It’s tempting to try to construct a league table, but we’ll have to wait months, if not years, for the true picture, says statistician David Spiegelhalter




					www.theguardian.com


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## losttheplot

A study done in UL I think and reported on RTE news used death notices from RIP.ie and compared to the same period last year. The difference being attributed to Covid. This is probably a reliable indicator


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## Purple

losttheplot said:


> A study done in UL I think and reported on RTE news used death notices from RIP.ie and compared to the same period last year. The difference being attributed to Covid. This is probably a reliable indicator


Can you post a link?


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## Slim

What is 'excess mortality' and how is it calculated?
					

Laura Hogan talks to Dr Pádraig Mac Carron who explains just how "excess mortality'"shows us the real impact that Covid-19 is having on the national mortality rate.




					www.rte.ie


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## mathepac

losttheplot said:


> A study done in UL I think and reported on RTE news used death notices from RIP.ie and compared to the same period last year. The difference being attributed to Covid. This is probably a reliable indicator


Made up numbers compared to numbers whose validity is unknown and untestable (RIP.IE has multiple entries for the same death, and may have no entries for others) show us nothing, provide no clarification or insight and again is simply more mathematical masturbation to grab headlines.  "Ohh aren't we good, look what we did!"


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## mathepac

Yet another good reason not to use the UK as a basis for comparison with how well or badly we are doing in the Channel 4 news.

Despite assurances from Government, civil servants, NHS mandarins about the state of preparedness with PPE stocks for an "influenza pandemic" the reality emerging is painting a different story.

Approximately 45% of the warehoused PPE had passed its "USE BY" date, some by 3,000 days! All syringes and needles were out of date for example.

Investigators found that "USE BY" dates on sticky labels affixed to packaging had had newer labels stuck over them. It is perfectly acceptable to do this :

if the equipment has been re-tested and certified as good independently,
if the equipment manufacturer is consulted, and
if the users of the equipment are notified that the equipment may not provide them with the protection they expect.
Investigators asked to see evidence of re-testing and certification, but to-date, no evidence has been produced for the investigators. There is no evidence that the potential users were notified as is required. No Government or civil service spokesperson was available for comment and the daily briefing has been cancelled.

If this is all true, it would appear that NHS staff died needlessly due to defective equipment issued to them by their employers and not being informed of the fact.

As a matter of good inventory management, stocks of warehoused PPE should be issued as it approaches its use-by date. The inventory level is then replenished to its appropriate stocking level with new purchases.  This did not happen with some items being issued for routine use and stcks not replenished.

More to come on this one and please stop the comparisons with the UK as a shining light of performance during the pandemic. It ain't and it never was.









						Revealed: PPE stockpile was out-of-date when coronavirus hit UK
					

Channel 4 News obtains full inventory of the national pandemic stockpile - revealing vital safety gear was years out of date




					www.channel4.com
				




[EDIT: Updated Channel 4 link above]


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## Wahaay

mathepac said:


> Yet another good reason not to use the UK as a basis for comparison with how well or badly we are doing in the Channel 4 news.
> 
> Despite assurances from Government, civil servants, NHS mandarins about the state of preparedness with PPE stocks for an "influenza pandemic" the reality emerging is painting a different story.
> 
> Approximately 45% of the warehoused PPE had passed its "USE BY" date, some by 3,000 days! All syringes and needles were out of date for example.
> 
> Investigators found that "USE BY" dates on sticky labels affixed to packaging had had newer labels stuck over them. It is perfectly acceptable to do this :
> 
> if the equipment has been re-tested and certified as good independently,
> if the equipment manufacturer is consulted, and
> if the users of the equipment are notified that the equipment may not provide them with the protection they expect.
> Investigators asked to see evidence of re-testing and certification, but to-date, no evidence has been produced for the investigators. There is no evidence that the potential users were notified as is required. No Government or civil service spokesperson was available for comment and the daily briefing has been cancelled.
> 
> If this is all true, it would appear that NHS staff died needlessly due to defective equipment issued to them by their employers and not being informed of the fact.
> 
> As a matter of good inventory management, stocks of warehoused PPE should be issued as it approaches its use-by date. The inventory level is then replenished to its appropriate stocking level with new purchases.  This did not happen with some items being issued for routine use and stcks not replenished.
> 
> More to come on this one and please stop the comparisons with the UK as a shining light of performance during the pandemic. It ain't and it never was.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Watch Channel 4 live | All 4
> 
> 
> Watch live streaming of our TV channels - Channel 4, E4, More4, Film4 and 4seven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.channel4.com



Do you have any information of the state of Ireland's PPE preparations  - how much they had in store; what its sell-by date was; why it was dependant on urgent supplies from China in mid-March ?
Take your time.It's a complicated subject and you'll need a while to research the extensive coverage in the Irish media.
Shall we say this time tomorrow ?


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## mathepac

I've posted extensively about our own level of preparedness and our disastrous PPE purchases. My purpose posting here is to argue for a better yardstick than Boris Tony, sorry Matt, and the NHS to gauge our level of planning and performance.  By comparing ourselves with UK we are setting the bar very very low, my point since joining this thread. What's your stake in the game?


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## Sunny

Is it just me or is it like wolftone has decided to rejoin AAM under yet another name?


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## Purple

Wahaay said:


> Do you have any information of the state of Ireland's PPE preparations  - how much they had in store; what its sell-by date was; why it was dependant on urgent supplies from China in mid-March ?


 Why would PPE have a sell-by date? Latex gloves, lexan face shields, masks, disposable gowns etc; they'll all last decades. 


Wahaay said:


> Take your time.It's a complicated subject and you'll need a while to research the extensive coverage in the Irish media.
> Shall we say this time tomorrow ?


 Why can't we just have a discussion based on what is being said by the HSE and reported in the national media?
I suspect that a large part of the PPE not fitting had something to do with the girth of some nurses and doctors.


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## Wahaay

Purple said:


> Why would PPE have a sell-by date? Latex gloves, lexan face shields, masks, disposable gowns etc; they'll all last decades.



You would think so and I certainly did but apparently not.
They all come with an expiry date.
It's one of the reasons governments don't spend fortunes continually re-stocking huge supplies of PPE for a once in a century global pandemic.


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## Purple

Wahaay said:


> You would think so and I certainly did but apparently not.
> They all come with an expiry date.
> It's one of the reasons governments don't spend fortunes continually re-stocking huge supplies of PPE for a once in a century global pandemic.


It comes with expiry dates because of glues etc used in them and the integrity of the packaging as well as the FDA and EMA just liking expiry dates. Gloves and masks will last for decades, as will the rest of it if stored in any sort of stable environment out of direct sunlight.


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## Wahaay

Purple said:


> It comes with expiry dates because of glues etc used in them and the integrity of the packaging as well as the FDA and EMA just liking expiry dates. Gloves and masks will last for decades, as will the rest of it if stored in any sort of stable environment out of direct sunlight.


So if that's the case why was Ireland scrabbling around just like everyone else including the UK for gloves,masks and gowns ?
Which is the point I was making to the poster doing  an online jig at news of a report that the UK was unprepared.
So was everyone else.


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## Purple

Wahaay said:


> So if that's the case why was Ireland scrabbling around just like everyone else including the UK for gloves,masks and gowns ?
> Which is the point I was making to the poster doing  an online jig at news of a report that the UK was unprepared.
> So was everyone else.


Yes, everyone was unprepared and unlike most countries we have no military (in any meaningful way) so we can't deploy field hospitals etc.
We have no army worth talking about so can't deploy field hospitals or dip into their stocks of medical equipment and we have no industry which can make much of the PPE. We also have a HSE which is utterly incompetent and can't buy the PPE we do have, let alone the other medical equipment that it has been offered (and said it needs).


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## Deiseblue

Sunny said:


> Is it just me or is it like wolftone has decided to rejoin AAM under yet another name?


That would be great news but unfortunately I don"t think so.
Sadly missed.


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## Purple

Deiseblue said:


> That would be great news but unfortunately I don"t think so.
> Sadly missed.


Yep, different poster altogether.


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## mathepac

Wahaay said:


> It's one of the reasons governments don't spend fortunes continually re-stocking huge supplies of PPE for a once in a century global pandemic.


They do and the UK certainly did, £500 million according to inventory lists seen by Channel 4.


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## mathepac

Purple said:


> I suspect that a large part of the PPE not fitting had something to do with the girth of some nurses and doctors.


I see what you did there "large part", very good. And yes, we have some right porkers, looking like massive Blue Meanies on some news reports.


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## ciarand

HSE are currently paying €20 for disposable coveralls, a washable fabric version is available for a similar amount, should be much more durable and comfortable. With hotels closed there must be massive laundry capacity available somewhere. If nothing else it would free up space on planes for masks. 
The HSE were contacted by Irish people working in the PPE industry in the far East. These people had relationships with factories and checkers on the ground. The response from one senior HSE officer was "Talk to Bono". The HSE preferred to deal direct with factories and paid 10x CURRENT (inflated) prices and accepted deliveries unchecked.


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## Purple

The HSE have been contacted by people making PPE and other critical equipment in Ireland and haven't bothered to reply.


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## odyssey06

ciarand said:


> HSE are currently paying €20 for disposable coveralls, a washable fabric version is available for a similar amount, should be much more durable and comfortable. With hotels closed there must be massive laundry capacity available somewhere. If nothing else it would free up space on planes for masks.
> The HSE were contacted by Irish people working in the PPE industry in the far East. These people had relationships with factories and checkers on the ground. The response from one senior HSE officer was "Talk to Bono". The HSE preferred to deal direct with factories and paid 10x CURRENT (inflated) prices and accepted deliveries unchecked.



Remember this story in a year's time when there's an article about "there's never enough resources" for health.


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## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> Remember this story in a year's time when there's an article about "there's never enough resources" for health.


This story and hundreds of others just like it. There are more than enough resources for health, more than enough money spent on it now. The people who work there just choose to waste it.


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## Deiseblue

Not a chance - next year and for years to come the HSE are going to be treated as the heroes who battled to save us from the coronavirus - in many instances risking their lives.
Absolutely bomb proof at this stage.


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## Duke of Marmalade

494 deaths in UK today, 10 in RoI, 2 in NI


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## Purple

Deiseblue said:


> Not a chance - next year and for years to come the HSE are going to be treated as the heroes who battled to save us from the coronavirus - in many instances risking their lives.
> Absolutely bomb proof at this stage.


Yep, unfortunately you are probably right. So the waste and delays will continue. How many more people will die on trolleys because of that? How many more kids with special needs won't get the help they need? How many more kids with scoliosis will suffer life changing delays in treatment because of it?


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## mathepac

This morning the UK added a further 445 previously unreported COVID-19 deaths to their overall total today. These seem to relate to testing done in private labs. This brings the total of reported UK COVID-19 fatalities to 39,045

BBC1 6 a.m news 2/6/2020


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## SPC100

https://twitter.com/Nameless_Weevil/status/1274669052129140737?s=20
		


 Says

So, a bit hand wavey but the UK's excess deaths per capita are 3x ours? (64,000÷1,550)÷(66.7÷4.9)


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## SPC100

Someone else highlights Germany is three times better than us and we should focus on higher goals


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