# Self employed (sole trader) who employed husband who has to be let go. Entitlements?



## Hebs (30 Nov 2010)

Hi all. 

I'm self employed (sole trader) and for the last couple of years my husband has been a registered employee in my business. My turnover in 2010 is about half what it was in 2009 and there is now only enough work to keep me busy for a couple of days week. There is no work for my husband.  

Neither of us have ever claimed benefits before so I don't have a clue if we're entitled to anything, but we are really struggling and could do with some help. I understand that as a self employed person I'm pretty much on my own, but was wondering if I give my husband his P45 (only from the business, I would still like to keep him otherwise!) would he be able to claim any benefits? 

We have no savings and our total income in 2010 will be about 25K.

Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thank you.


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## Welfarite (1 Dec 2010)

If you husband pays, and is accepted by SW, as an 'ordinary' Class A-paying PAYE worker, then he has the same entitlements as any other employee, including JB.


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## Mpsox (1 Dec 2010)

bear in mind he may be entitled to claim redundancy from you !!


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## Black Sheep (1 Dec 2010)

If you can translate this into English (as opposed to civil service speak or legalese) it appears that your husband's employment by you may not be considered *insurable* employment.

"
*3.6.2        Prescribed relatives of self-employed contributors*

 A prescribed relative of a self-employed contributor not being a partner, where s/he participates in the business of the self-employed contributor and performs the same tasks or ancillary tasks is not insurable.  The prescribed relative is defined as a parent, grandparent, step-parent, child, grandchild, step-child, brother, sister, half-brother, half-sister or spouse of the self-employed contributor. ​


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## Hebs (1 Dec 2010)

Thank you Welfarite. 

MPsox - oops, I hadn't hadn't thought about that - thank you. I will keep that to myself!!

Black Sheep - thanks. I know I've not been allowed to pay PRSI for him, only PAYE contributions. Do PAYE contributions not count? 

I guess it's not looking too good then.


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## Black Sheep (1 Dec 2010)

"I know I've not been allowed to pay PRSI for him, only PAYE contributions. Do PAYE contributions not count? "

Not sure what you mean by this


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## Hebs (2 Dec 2010)

Hi Black Sheep. I have been paying PAYE contributions for him but can't pay PRSI contributions for him, because he's my husband. 

I presume he'd need to have PRSI contributions to be able to claim benefits?


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## DB74 (2 Dec 2010)

Hebs said:


> I presume he'd need to have PRSI contributions to be able to claim benefits?


 
Yes - PAYE contributions don't count towards social welfare payments


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## Welfarite (2 Dec 2010)

Hebs said:


> Hi Black Sheep. I have been paying PAYE contributions for him but can't pay PRSI contributions for him, because he's my husband.
> 
> I presume he'd need to have PRSI contributions to be able to claim benefits?


Yes adn from what you say, he is not a Class A 'ordianry' emploee of the company. Therefore, he has no entitlement to JB


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## Hebs (3 Dec 2010)

Thanks for your help. 

I gave the benefits people a call today and they said that I may be entiled to Jobseekers allowance and that we would be assessed as a couple. 

Fingers crossed...


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## Hebs (10 Dec 2010)

Just thought I'd give an update. 

My husband and I both went into the welfare office and explained the situation. He is not entiled to JB but can apply for JA and we would have our means assessed as a couple.  

He was assessed the following day (I gave copies of my bank statements, accounts etc) and we've been told that we can expect a payment, on account of us having no 'means' to speak of. Thank God for that. 

So, it seems that there is help out there for self employed people (indirectly).


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## Welfarite (11 Dec 2010)

Hebs said:


> So, it seems that there is help out there for self employed people (indirectly).


 
Yes, there is a common misconception that self-employed people are automatically 'barred' and cannot claim Jobseeker's Allowance.


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## moneymoney (4 Feb 2011)

Just come accross this and thread as I am in similar situation.  Accountant advised my husband, who is sole trader to put me 'on the books' last year as he was busy and I was doing the admin etc.  We were not married when I became and employee but have since got married and I am still an employee, paying PRSI.  Should I not have been paying this?  Work very slow now and there is not enough work to justify paying me a wage.  There have been about 30 prsi contributions made for me.  I am really confused now.  Would I be entitled to JA?  Also, I am looking for work at the moment, but the only jobs seem to be through FAS - as I am not claiming anything can I register with FAS.  Am at a loss here as to where I stand.  Advice would be much appreciated.


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## moneymoney (4 Feb 2011)

thanks for reply.  My husband is a sole trader.  Does he need to pay employers prsi for me?  thanks


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## Hebs (10 Feb 2011)

Hi Moneymoney

When we first went into the welfare office they looked us up on their computer and told us that my husband would not be entitled to JSB because he didn't have the right PRSI contributions (because we are married) and that I'm not entitled to jobseekers benefit because I'm self employed.  So I guess they will be able to look up that information for you and hopefully you will have enough entitliments.  

Because we now have no savings or other income we were advised to apply for jobseekers allowance (which is means tested). They said that either one of us could make the claim andI could continue with the business.. (am still hoping things will get better!) 

I took in copies of my accounts and bank statements but they misread the figures and presumed we had a joint income of twice the amount that it actually is, so we were refused. Have made an appeal, but it's taking forever. 

It's probably best just to go into the Welfare office and explain. I found it really hard to ask for help, but they were very sympathetic and told me that there's loads of people in the same boat. 

Best of luck, I hope it all works out for you both


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## Hebs (20 Jun 2011)

UPDATE

We have had our case appealed and to cut a long story short, although my 2010 audited accounts show that I earnt even less than I told them, they can't accept them because the accounts weren't in existence when my husband first signed on!  

Although the final decision will be sent to us by post, they made it blatantly obvious that we will be refused. I just felt like they were looking for any excuse to refuse us. We were pretty much told to apply again with the 2010 accounts! (as we are well below the minimum means).  It would have been nice to kow this in January when my accounts were finished and I sent them a copy. What a big waste of everyone's time. 

I was so upset at having to ask for help in the first place... now it's 6 months later and we're back where we started. 

I understand that it's hard to assess self employed people, but the sooner they change the system to allow us to pay contributions that would cover us for JSB in times of need, the better!


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## joanj (22 Jun 2011)

Myself and my husband in same situation.Im running small business,can barely get a wage out of it.Husband was selfemployed,now unemployed.Brought in all bank statements in to welfare office showing credid cards,morgage etc al in arrears.Was totally mortified at having to do so.No savings.niether of us ever signed on in our lives and the result after all that was 8 euro a week.How do they expect 2 adults and 2 children to survive on that.I pay roughly 1200 vat a month in my business but cant afford a wage but have to continue to make morgage payment.selfemployed people contribute so much revenue to he state but when they need help there is nothing for them.


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## Hebs (24 Jun 2011)

Hi Joanj. Sorry to hear about your situation. It just doesn't make sense does it. I can't bear to think about the amount I've paid out in VAT and income tax over the years, only to see so much public money squandered and then to add insult to injury get absolutely zero help when we need it the most. My first (and hopefully last) experience of the welfare system has been nothing but traumatic It makes me incredibly angry to think about it, so I try not to. 

We're resourceful people, us self employed types, and we WILL get ourselves out of this. Hang on in there... the best of luck to you


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## Complainer (24 Jun 2011)

joanj said:


> cant afford a wage but have to continue to make morgage payment.


I don't understand this. Do you mean to say that you're taking a wage from the business, and most or all of that wage is going on your mortgage repayment?



Hebs said:


> get absolutely zero help when we need it the most.


This isn't true. You are entitled to the same means-tested benefits as anyone else. If you're not getting benefits, it must be because you have other means.


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## Hebs (24 Jun 2011)

Complainer.... do you work for Social Welfare? 

Actually no, we have no other means. We have survived since Christmas with a loan from a relative.

They said they couldn't accept my audited accounts for 2010 because they were only complete in February and the claim was made several months prior to this. They can only accept information available at the time the claim was made (i.e. my 2009 accounts). They also didn't like the way my accountant had presented my accounts - they could see that we were earning a pittance, but said the information was presented incorrectly - in spite of me proving an explanatory email from my accountant... on of the leading accountants in the country!

They said that in the event that our claim is refused (which I took to mean that it will be) they advised us to apply again using my audited accounts for 2010, but of course this means we have lost over 6 months of payments. AND we have to wait at least 6 weeks for a letter telling us that we've been refused. 

I am focusing my energy on re-training and finding new business instead of wasting my time trying to get help from a system that gets too tied up in it's own rules to be of any use to me. Hopefully I wont have to go through the bother of applying again.


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## Hebs (24 Jun 2011)

Complainer said:


> I don't understand this. Do you mean to say that you're taking a wage from the business, and most or all of that wage is going on your mortgage repayment?
> .


 
When you are self employed, you take money you have earnt from the business to pay your mortgage.  If you don't earn enough money you can't pay your mortgage!!


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## xeresod (24 Jun 2011)

joanj said:


> ...I pay roughly 1200 vat a month...


 


Hebs said:


> ...the amount I've paid out in VAT ...


 
To to try to make ye feel a bit better; it's your customers that actually pay the VAT - you just collect it and pass it on to Revenue so it's not an actual cost to you!


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## Complainer (24 Jun 2011)

Hebs said:


> When you are self employed, you take money you have earnt from the business to pay your mortgage.  If you don't earn enough money you can't pay your mortgage!!



I'm still confused. Have you been earning money from the business or not? Have you been paying the mortgage or not?


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## joanj (25 Jun 2011)

Complainer,
Maybe I didnt explain myself properly.My business can just about afford to pay the morgage on my business premises.The problem is my accounts show that the business cannot afford to pay any salary but I have no choice but to take a wage to pay my house morgage(interest only)and household bills beause my husband is unemployed and in receipt of 8euro a wk social security.This is putting my business under severe pressure because i am in arrears with vat,suppliers etc.What option do I have?


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## Complainer (26 Jun 2011)

OK, now we're getting closer, but I'm still a little bit confused. When you say 'mortgage on my business premises', are you sure that this is actually a mortgage. It would be unusual (but not impossible) for a business to have a mortgage on a business premises. It would be far more usual that the business is renting its business premises. So is it really a mortgage on the business premises?


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## Hebs (27 Jun 2011)

xeresod said:


> To to try to make ye feel a bit better; it's your customers that actually pay the VAT - you just collect it and pass it on to Revenue so it's not an actual cost to you!


 
Yes, point taken!

My point was that it's hard to have watched the previous government squandering all of that VAT money I generated for them!


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## Hebs (27 Jun 2011)

JoanJ - have you asked for a review of your payment? €8 is an insult. I was told that they review self employed people all the time so if you go in with your latest figures maybe you will be entitled to more?


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## joanj (27 Jun 2011)

Hebs, yes it is a 20yr morgage on business premises(3yrs into it).My husband is waiting to hear from the appeals process in relation to social welfare but as far as I know this can take months.In relation to the morgage on business premises I have applied for interest only but have been told by my bank that even if I get it that my interest rate will go up from 3.2 to at least 5% because it will be a break in my loan contract.This will defeat the purpose of looking for reduced payments.Catch 22.


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## Complainer (27 Jun 2011)

joanj said:


> Hebs, yes it is a 20yr morgage on business premises(3yrs into it).


Sorry to be probing, but I'm still a bit confused. I know the mortgage is for a business premises, but is it the business that owes the money to the bank on this mortgage, or do you/your husband owe the money personally to the bank. Do you own the property, or does the business own the property?


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## joanj (27 Jun 2011)

Complainer,we owe the money personally to the bank for the morgage on the business premises.I am a sole trader so if the business goes under we personally owe all outstanding debts.If i was renting I would have closed the business last year but I have to keep trading to pay the morgage.


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## Complainer (27 Jun 2011)

OK, so now we have a clearer picture. You (along with many others) got into property investment, at the peak of the boom by buying your business premises. This was a fairly common tax planning device, a way for business owners to extract pre-tax money from their businesses.

Your business is now in difficulty. You seem to be taking money from the business to pay your home mortgage, and (presumably) the mortgage on your investment property (the business premises) is going into arrears.

For a start, please don't have any expectation that Social Welfare will be supporting your property investment. That's not the role of the State.

While your description of what's going on isn't very clear, it sounds like you could be at risk of fraudulent trading. If you are taking money out of the business to pay your home mortgage, you may well be taking money that rightfully belongs to suppliers and Revenue. You really should get some good advise on this from somebody who can sit down with your figures.


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## joanj (27 Jun 2011)

Actually I purchased business premises over 10yrs ago but had to remorgage 3 yrs ago because of another business goin under.I remorgaged to clear all outstanding debts.I never for one minute expected Social Welfare to support my property investment but what I do expect is that my husband would be entitled to a social welfare payment to put food on the table for my family as nither of us has ever looked for social welfare before.I also feel it is unfair practice of banks to increase interest rate on a morgage just because you need to go interest only for a year.Yes I might be at risk of fraudlent trading but given a choice of feeding my family and keeping a roof over our heads I will take that chance.I would imagine even you would make that decision.


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## Complainer (27 Jun 2011)

I hope things work out for you, Joan.


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## Peter C (2 Aug 2011)

Hi,

I think the first mistake you made was to provide the correct paper work, audited accounts from a company with a good reputation / public profile (not meaning accountants aren't reputable).

S.W. do not believe some accountants are willing to work for a client based on past dealings hoping we will all come good in the future (told to me by an accountant) the idea being if you can afford to pay the accountant you don't have an emergency need.

We know the accounts are legally needed for other returns and try to stay legal but Government departments do not communicate if they did our Ministers would be looking at a system to keep us in business.

Keep trying, next time find someone with no assets to act as your company directors, that way you will qualify for everything as an employee.


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