# Review of Prime Time programme on auctioneers



## mad m

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

Well its out now what we always thought about them. I hope this sinks them.Good riddence.


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## beattie

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

I thought this was a bit of a damp squid, picking on an smallish EA in Dublin instead of some of the bigger ones means that this will be all forgotten about after Xmas, hopefully I am proved wrong.


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## Shellies

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

Hi, i am quite new to this. But was very interested when I heard about this programme. It is about time that the scams were uncovered. As in any business i am sure that there are honest companies and cowboys. i decided to sell my apartment a few months ago and then withdrew it. I was totally messed around by valuation and advise from the great irish estate agent. And I am totally aware of what you are referring to. There is a 'bond' or insurance that can cover you for 12.5k in order for you to become a registered irish auctioneer and it literllay involves your financial situation being examined and getting a court date. There is a bit of investigation that goes on to make sure you are above board and have the proper cover. i know a 2 people in the country that did this and are now auctioneers.


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

Thought it was strange that that 'picked on' only one EA myself (maybe it was the only office they could get into?), and that they did not name the developer in Drogheda who upped the price on the guy at the last minute, or the EA who stopped taking bids on the woman's apartment while there was still interest.


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## lissard

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

To my eyes the really interesting new thing in this documentary was the practice of exchanging of personal financial information between EA and mortgage broker. Based on this Simply Mortgages should be looking at some pretty severe sanction.


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## Fiona

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

*"On the Late Late the other night, some senator registeres as an auctioneer to show how easy it was to become one.

He just paid a €12.5k fee, stood in front of a judge who asked a garda if he had any objections of him becoming an auctioneer, once the garda said no, he became an auctioneer and srtup his own office"

*Late late is being repeated now (23:50pm) for anyone who wants to find out just how ridiculously simple it is to become an Auctioneer!


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## baby_tooth

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

but will anoyone here do anything about it or will they just whinge and give out about it and wait for someone else to do something...

seems to be the way in ireland at the moment...society has no fabric or desire to better its lot collectively. One of the main problems in ireland, and throughout the world, is that the vested interests are well organised and can influence politics better than us because they are organised and can push their interests far more effectively that us joe soaps can.

perhaps maybe emailing their head office, baggotst@simplymortgages.ie to complain, and cc in your local ff td and maybe the minister of finance and the financial regulator.....let them know that we know....

anybody ??


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## exile

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*



CCOVICH said:


> Thought it was strange that that 'picked on' only one EA myself



They got someone right inside that organisation - they couldn't reasonably have been infiltrating EAs all over the country.  It was good to have a specific example.  Unlucky for that EA, but he made his bed, so ...


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## june

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

will this programme be repeated does anyone know or will it be continued on the next primetime?


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## Abbeykiller

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*



Fiona said:


> *"On the Late Late the other night, some senator registeres as an auctioneer to show how easy it was to become one.*
> 
> _*He just paid a €12.5k fee, stood in front of a judge who asked a garda if he had any objections of him becoming an auctioneer, once the garda said no, he became an auctioneer and srtup his own office"*_
> 
> Late late is being repeated now (23:50pm) for anyone who wants to find out just how ridiculously simple it is to become an Auctioneer!


 

But how does one develop the arrogance displayed by their representative tonight on prime time ??? His basic argument - It's not the EAs fault for being corrupt and dishonest, it is the fault of the Govenrment for ....well ...I'm not quite sure what his point was ....


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## Fiona

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*



Abbeykiller said:


> But how does one develop the arrogance displayed by their representative tonight on prime time ??? His basic argument - It's not the EAs fault for being corrupt and dishonest, it is the fault of the Govenrment for ....well ...I'm not quite sure what his point was ....



...the fault of the Government for letting us (them) get away with it! Basically that was his point! 
Reminded me of the president of the law society speaking today on newstalk saying that a lot of barristers are poor and lead underprivilaged lives!! Woe be them... Made me laugh...of all the crackpot arguements to put forth!!?? 

Both reports will gather dust for a long time to come methinks. A bit of a media frenzy then back to business as usuall...


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## sherib

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*



> Originally Posted by *Fiona*
> *"On the Late Late the other night, some senator registeres as an auctioneer to show how easy it was to become one.*


That was Senator Shane Ross. He had nothing complimentary to say about Auctioneers! 

It would appear from _Prime Time_ that there is no obligation to be a member of the Auctioneers Association nor any monitoring of their activities - not to mention sanction for breaking whatever rules there are.


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## Rhino 1

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*



baby_tooth said:


> but will anoyone here do anything about it or will they just whinge and give out about it and wait for someone else to do something...


 
Hi babytooth,

I will not do much about it - but my house was on the market with this EA, not for much longer it has to be said. 

I do feel pity for this EA as cocovich poited out earlier they were piked on and to all intents and purposes are ruined while all the other EA's will get away scott free while probably carrying in the same manner as this one.


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

I was disappointed that they only spent around 10 minutes on the Primetime show on Newstalk this morning-oh well, I guess talking to Graham Geraghty is more interesting.


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## Gordanus

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

I guess the only way to go is literally private treaty - www.privatesellers.com I think for people who want to sell their property without going through estate agents.   Anyone know of other siteS?

The practices Prime Time revealed may not have been illegal in Ireland (and they said often enough that the practices they described were often illegal in other EU countries) but they are certainly unethical:

-ghost bidding
-not passing on all bids to owner
-getting details of a person's financial standing to know how much they can afford

Are these practices widespread? I think the fact that these concerns have been raised time and again on this website shows how vulnerable the buyer is in these transactions, and often the seller too.   I very much hope that some proper legislation will be brought in soon.  ANd fair play to Prime Time!  The newspapers couldn't do it because of their reliance on EA advertising. Thank heaven for investigative reporting.

(I have no connection with any buying or selling website - nor with any estate agent!)


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*

There is also www.forsalebyowner.ie and of course people are free to advertise on www.daft.ie and have your own signs made up etc.


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## serotoninsid

Cant see why their role cant be reduced to niche business just like has happened with travel agents and should be happening with mortgage brokers.

For the majority of people who are buying/selling 3/4bed semi-D boxes, theres no need for an estate agent.


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## nelly

well i thought the EA was not the only ones to have dodgy practices - they got an excel file from a morgage broker telling them how much money folks had to spend - that i found shocking - they did break the data protection act and in effect the law so will we see a prosecution? 

No pity for the poor little EA practice - a shower of chancers who were rightly exposed. Hopefully someone like PD's will adopt this hobby horse of regulating both brokers and EA's for the next government.


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*



june said:


> will this programme be repeated does anyone know or will it be continued on the next primetime?


 
It's available online here


http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/230-2200394.smil [realplayer required]


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## Sunny

I think the programme was a good snapshot of what people have been saying about the industry and its practices for a long time. The case of the developer who was leaving estates unfinished, made a settlement with the CAB for 9 million Euro but was still getting planning permission from County Councils to build more estates was mind boggling. He should have been in jail.


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## ubiquitous

Sunny said:


> The case of the developer who was leaving estates unfinished, made a settlement with the CAB for 9 million Euro but was still getting planning permission from County Councils to build more estates was mind boggling. He should have been in jail.



Prime Time copped out very badly by failing to state that this man has indeed been in jail previously, and more particularly that he is well known as a leading light in Sinn Fein/IRA. Had this been mentioned, viewers might have remembered this the next time they see the likes of Caoimhghin O'Caolain or Sean Crowe spouting off about ripoffs in the building industry.

By the way, had this man been for example a Fianna Fail activist, or one of the supporters at the FF tent at the Galway Races, can anyone imagine Prime Time failing to mention this fact?


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## Duplex

One of the more disturbing revelations in that programme was the discrepancy found between floor areas quoted by agents and actual areas as measured by the programme makers.  I think they found that actual areas were about 10% less than advertised, utterly scandalous.  

Another point property sellers might want to consider getting their agent to sign an agreement before instructing them.  This is a pretty good template from Australia of such an agreement; http://www.jenman.com.au/BS_S_Guarantee.php


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## DirtyH2O

They didn't seem to have much apart from the one South Dublin auctioneer who, it is safe to assume, is pretty much out of business now.Most estate agents are looking for speed of sale over price I'd image e.g how is 1% of an extra 5K going to motivate them, it's only worth 50 euro to them.

I would be more convinced about builders leaving estates unfinished although it seems to be a separate issue completely, to me at least. I couldn't wondering how someone would give hundreds of thousands to someone without doing any research into their reputation or look up previous developments they had done. Are people really that lazy or naive? It weakens their arguement when they have been that careless to begin with.


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## dieter1

serotoninsid said:


> Cant see why their role cant be reduced to niche business just like has happened with travel agents and should be happening with mortgage brokers.
> 
> For the majority of people who are buying/selling 3/4bed semi-D boxes, theres no need for an estate agent.



This is an interesting comment, we recently sold our apartment through an agent.  I had thought about doing it myself but its not simply as easy as you describe it and its a naive comment.  First of all, there is having the time to sell it, secondly there is the problem of finding buyers.  I used a guy who had sold lots of apartments in the complex and he had buyers ready to view when we were ready to show it.  It was sold in hours.  We could have held out but got 11% above the amv and grabbed it with both hands.  We could never have found the buyers that quickly.  Literally two weeks later the market collapsed for apts in the complex (mid sep).   Now we're renting, lets see how it pans out......


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## Glenbhoy

serotoninsid said:


> For the majority of people who are buying/selling 3/4bed semi-D boxes, theres no need for an estate agent.


From personal experience I beg to differ - am currently selling and we do need the estate agent, it saves us the hassle of having to schedule and attend viewings etc, of which there have been 20 odd so far.  For us it's worth the 0.5%, although, obviously for others it would not be.


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## plaudit

After seeing that program if I was buying a house or apartment and it was advertised with an EA I would just go up and bang on the door and tell them I will only deal with them directly, I'm sure they wouldn't mind as they too would be saving on the commission.


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## Sunny

DirtyH2O said:


> I would be more convinced about builders leaving estates unfinished although it seems to be a separate issue completely, to me at least. I couldn't wondering how someone would give hundreds of thousands to someone without doing any research into their reputation or look up previous developments they had done. Are people really that lazy or naive? It weakens their arguement when they have been that careless to begin with.


 
I agree to a certain extent but as the programme pointed out, everything seems to be based on the premise of 'buyer beware'. I am all for due dilligence but when I buy a house or an apartment, is it unreasonable to expect the developer to comply with legal planning permission requirements without having to chase them through the courts. I think if a developer doesn't fulfil his duties on one development, he should not be allowed to develop anywhere else until he remedies the situation.


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## Glenbhoy

ubiquitous said:


> Prime Time copped out very badly by failing to state that this man has indeed been in jail previously, and more particularly that he is well known as a leading light in Sinn Fein/IRA. Had this been mentioned, viewers might have remembered this the next time they see the likes of Caoimhghin O'Caolain or Sean Crowe spouting off about ripoffs in the building industry.
> 
> By the way, had this man been for example a Fianna Fail activist, or one of the supporters at the FF tent at the Galway Races, can anyone imagine Prime Time failing to mention this fact?


Whilst not condoning this individual's behaviour in his role as a property developer, I can't understand how you can see any relevance between this man having been jailed in 70's NI and his current actions.
When you refer to Sinn Fein/IRA are you inferring that this individual is a 'leading light' in both organisations?  
Can you not see that if this individual had been a Galway tent visitor it would be relevant in the context of any discussion on planning and unfinished estates etc, because normally the people with the power to grant planning or allow developers to renege on promises re new estates are fianna fail councillors -  as the famous tent is one of ff's great fundraising events it is only right that such questions arise.


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## Stiofan

*Re: Illegal activities of estate agents etc.-Primetime 10.12.06*



Rhino 1 said:


> Hi babytooth,
> I do feel pity for this EA as cocovich poited out earlier they were piked on and to all intents and purposes are ruined while all the other EA's will get away scott free while probably carrying in the same manner as this one.


 
Why would anyone feel sorry for the EA. He robbed people pure and simple.

I think that lad who was on from the IAVI summed up the programme for me when he protested that primetime were focusing in on his members rather than the whole construction industry. He basically stated that we're all at it so why just pick on us. Ah sure if everyone is trying to rip the consumer off sure that grand. Now thats a scary though!!!!


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## ubiquitous

Glenbhoy said:


> Whilst not condoning this individual's behaviour in his role as a property developer, I can't understand how you can see any relevance between this man having been jailed in 70's NI and his current actions..



Well, when someone who has recently made a multi-million euro settlement with the Criminal Assets Bureau, AND they have a past criminal record including a term of imprisonment, AND they are now exposed on TV in relation to further scandalous behaviour, most people would conclude that there is indeed an unhappy pattern... 

(To take a separate analogy, it would have been rather stupid had the coverage of the recent Michael Stone incident in Stormont failed to mention his terrorist/murderous past and his senior role in loyalist paramilitarism.)



> When you refer to Sinn Fein/IRA are you inferring that this individual is a 'leading light' in both organisations?.


Yes. Is there a difference?



> Can you not see that if this individual had been a Galway tent visitor it would be relevant in the context of any discussion on planning and unfinished estates etc, because normally the people with the power to grant planning or allow developers to renege on promises re new estates are fianna fail councillors - as the famous tent is one of ff's great fundraising events it is only right that such questions arise.



You forget that SFIRA have entered into mutually profitable voting pacts with FF on quite a number of local authorities, where between them they hold voting majorities - with indeed all the powers that you describe.


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## HouseHunter

Its fair to say that most practices connected with the sale and purchase of property in this country are dreadfully under regulated. I see this as a huge failing the current government. I also wonder if it is simply incompetence or deliberate, given the 'builders party' connections. 

Anyway, it is pointless wasting time and energy debating who is responsible. The only way to change things is to take matters into your own hands. I am not advocating violence but rather by playing them at their own game. Take the tenents of the apartment block in Dublin City Centre who sacked their management company and are running things themselves. 

I am amazed that people use EA's to sell their property. Having spent over a year viewing countless properties I have been shocked at how useless EA's are. For example, if you ask them a question about the property they always have to check with the vendor, and thats if you are lucky enough to get the EA who is actually dealing with the property. They do nothing to sell the place. People should set up an open house on a saturday and do the job themselves, and save some money in the process. If you need to advertise just use DAFT or myhome (or other). So now we've elminated EA's and management companies. 

I am also in favour of people using their friends to play EA's at their own game. Get them to phone up immediately after you bid to check what the last bid was. This way you'll know if you're being had. 

I'd also recommend cutting out mortgage brokers. No offense to regular readers/posters (MB's) on this site but anyone could do what they do all you need is some time. 

My final recommendation is about solicitors...no, I am not recommemding we cut them out. In fact, quite the opposite. My advice is to avoid the cheap deals you see or hear of. Bascially you really do get what you pay for. We went through two of them before switching to a more expensive outfit. We discovered that with the cheaper solicitors we were being handled by a legal sec and the customer service was appalling. Imagine being verbally abused for demanding to speak to the solicitor that was supposed to be handling your case. Anyway, we decided to forget the cheap deals and went with another firm. We couldnt believe the difference in service. We were given all possible contact details immediately and they always kept in touch. They also stayed very late to accommodate us to review and sign the contracts. Also, if it wasnt for their efforts on the final days leading up to closing we would have been homeless for a few days.


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## keeva00

Well after seeing the program last night it got me  thinking ! at the moment I am bidding on a house that has gone from 40k under  the asking price to 40k over the asking price? this EA is a well know  auctioneers in the town of Naas. The EA told me at the start the vendor wanted a  quick sale and kept telling me it was about to close at the end of the week so I  would put in my last bid each time to be out bid again by the second bidder.  Last week I told him I was only prepared to put in a bid on the basis that the  sale was closed before the end of the week! this was a Thursday! he agreed and  took my bid! Now not even 10mins after I received a phone call back from EA to  say that another interested party was now interested to had no choice but to  prolong the bidding again? So now the bid is gone 50k over the asking price and  still rising! I am now kicking myself for showing way to much interest in this  particular property to the EA and don't know now if he is just playing me for  everything I got?


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## CCOVICH

Ask them did they see Primetime last night .


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## Aesop

I think quite a few people here are missing the point. EA's employ all means necessary to make as much money for themselves as they can. I don't think they are unique in this perspective. No point condemning the activities of a section of the industry that is operating (for the most part) within the law.

The issue here is, there is no legislation in place to protect buyers from unethical behaviour (gazumping, ghost bidders etc). The real question is why are they allowed to get away with this by our legislature? There is a very uncomfortable relationship between them and the industry that they should be regulating (as proven by the many tribunals ongoing in this country).

The Irish public seem more than happy to vote for politicians corrupted by this industry. Lawlor, Haughey, Ray Burke. Remember these people were voted in to their positions of power by us. I wish people would remember this stuff when they vote. Maybe we get the Estate agents we deserve?


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## Markjbloggs

keeva00 said:


> Well after seeing the program last night it got me thinking ! at the moment I am bidding on a house that has gone from 40k under the asking price to 40k over the asking price? this EA is a well know auctioneers in the town of Naas. The EA told me at the start the vendor wanted a quick sale and kept telling me it was about to close at the end of the week so I would put in my last bid each time to be out bid again by the second bidder. Last week I told him I was only prepared to put in a bid on the basis that the sale was closed before the end of the week! this was a Thursday! he agreed and took my bid! Now not even 10mins after I received a phone call back from EA to say that another interested party was now interested to had no choice but to prolong the bidding again? So now the bid is gone 50k over the asking price and still rising! I am now kicking myself for showing way to much interest in this particular property to the EA and don't know now if he is just playing me for everything I got?


 
Walk away, plain and simple !!


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## sheena1

Markjbloggs said:


> Walk away, plain and simple !!


 

RUN RUN RUN!!!!!


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## plaudit

Ask the EA to show you the other parties bid in writing.


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## serotoninsid

@dieter1 & Ghlenboy:  I take your point - one that others have made to me ie. time taken to show property & less likelihood of getting a buyer. On the first point, it depends on your situation - how valuable your time is and whether or not you can schedule in viewings.

AS regards having less likelihood of getting a buyer without an estate agent, I'm sure your right.  However, this boils down to the current convention as regards the house buying or selling process.  99 times out of a hundred, the seller places the property with an EA.  Ditto as regards the buyer - looks at what is available through their local estate agents. I know I did when I bought, but having been lied to as regards the sales price of a house and then  having been promised a copy of the plans for the house I ended up buying (plans were never sent nor had he any intention of sending them), I dealt with the developer directly.  I did ask him to discount the EA fee (there was no harm in asking) but he said that they had to pay him anyway as they had a contract for the whole estate with him.
However, if sites like privateseller.ie reached a level of critical mass, then that convention could change - and I really hope it does.

No plans on selling in the near future but when the time comes, I hope to give selling privately a good run.


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## plaudit

privateseller.ie is probably the way to. Everything will be fixed price, no commission.

Shane Ross is also onto something of a "halfway house" The ryanair model is the way to go. Charge for everything instead of a %. EG ad in paper for 4 weeks, €200, ad on myhome €50, sign outside house, €120, cost per viewing €80. That way the buyer and seller will control the whole process and the EA gets the same amount of money regardless of what the house sells for.

When you go in to sell your house the EA lets you decide on how many advertising mediums you want to use.


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## orka

keeva00 said:


> So now the bid is gone 50k over the asking price and still rising! I am now kicking myself for showing way to much interest in this particular property to the EA and don't know now if he is just playing me for everything I got?


 
Without wishing to turn into Clubman in the ripoff threads, if the house is worth 50K more to you then pay it - if it's not, then don't. EA's job is to get max price for client that punter is willing to pay. It's no different than haggling for a bag with a street trader when you're on holidays. Yes, it sucks that the goalposts move but there is no obligation on you to keep bidding. 

I hate EAs since a similar experience when we were buying our house (we walked away in the end, couldn't take anymore of their messing around and we were sure there were no other bidders - although there must have been because the house did sell) but I would probably use the exact same agent if we came to sell as they would probably get the max price for us. And that's part of the problem - they caused us so much stress on the buying side but I would want them selling for us. It's all very well saying you would sell privately or attempt to buy privately but the seller will often get a better price (even net of commission) by using an EA.


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## phoenix_n

Your best strategy is to go silent. Dont answer the EA's calls and get in contact with him next week.


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## exile

orka said:


> It's no different than haggling for a bag with a street trader when you're on holidays.



No different?  You've haggled for bags with street traders where you were bidding against someone, who you couldn't see, for a single bag?!

You gotta find yourself a new street vendor.  Normally you haggle those guys *down*.


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## Markjbloggs

plaudit said:


> Ask the EA to show you the other parties bid in writing.


 
If the guy is a crook, then he will have no scruples about forging any written bids.


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## plaudit

Markjbloggs said:


> If the guy is a crook, then he will have no scruples about forging any written bids.


 
With their name and contact details on it?


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## Luternau

> Quote So now the bid is gone 50k over the asking price and still rising! I am now kicking myself for showing way to much interest in this particular property to the EA and don't know now if he is just playing me for everything I got?


 

Seems like the EA has got you under their spell, and doing everything that they hoped you would do as a buyer-i.e keep on bidding and extending your offer period. There is no mystery to selling property its creating the frenzy of I want I want that EA's do. They do this by marketing the house way below the price the seller will sell, hoping to generate enough interest and create a bidding duel where they get hold all the aces.

Having not seen the house only you can know if its worth it or not. However you have to put a value on yourself the buyer, and decide just when you have had enough of the nonsense. 
I would be gone long ago-its only a house till you own it-then it becomes a home. There are plenty of houses!!


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## Guest111

I had direct experience of this auctioneer only a couple of months ago. If it wasn't so serious it would have been hilarious. Myself and my girlfriend went to view a property. There were quite a few people there so the Golf-driving spoofer was pretty busy. As we took a brochure he said "just to let you know we've had an offer in at the asking price". We spent a long time looking at the place and spoke to him after everyone had left. He then said the vendors were looking for a quick sale, had already bought and that an offer in and around the asking price would more than likely succeed.
Ridiculous. These people deserve no sympathy...that type of culture comes from the top in an organisation.


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## Markjbloggs

plaudit said:


> With their name and contact details on it?


 
Friends of his who are in on the game????


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## murray

plaudit said:


> privateseller.ie is probably the way to. Everything will be fixed price, no commission.
> 
> Shane Ross is also onto something of a "halfway house" The ryanair model is the way to go. Charge for everything instead of a %. EG ad in paper for 4 weeks, €200, ad on myhome €50, sign outside house, €120, cost per viewing €80. That way the buyer and seller will control the whole process and the EA gets the same amount of money regardless of what the house sells for.


 
_I would love to see this happen , will he attract quality sales people to work for him? I dont think so !!_

_Maybe this could have worked in a strong bull market , but this idea, along with the internet companies (private seller.ie etc) have and never will take off to any significance. The market now , and as it tightens will need, more than ever , experienced sales people- many Mickey mouse one man band outfits will go under due to lack of experience in a bear market - and no sales/negotiation skills._

_Vendors and buyers will always need a 'middle-man' because of the stress involved during a sale - people loose all sense of rationality - the deals will fall through left right and centre because of their lack of experience. Sounds harsh, but so true._


_Some points on this thread are valid , though the EA's that I know do a very stressful job, very well. (disclosure- I am an EA)_

_Remember,; _

_it is Vendors that gazump people, not EA's. _

_Ghost bidding is not nearly as frequent as people like to make out (though also not illeagal)_

_Only Vendors pay EA's not buyers. EA's Loyalty is with them at the end of the day.Buyers seem to forget this - maybe they could employ a buying agent (like in the USA)_

_Market Forces - if another bid comes in and you dont want to bid further, DONT BID THEN ! - If you are right and there was a 'ghost bid' , the property won't be 'sale agreed' will it?!(as one poster found out earlier in this thread, where he stopped bidding because he was wrongly convinced of ghost bidding and the house was sold to someone else)_

_I agree 100% with the point about the wrongful disclosing of full financial details from broker to EA - but the EA should have in writing from bank/broker , confirmation that the buyer can buy at the level agreed befor proceeding._

_Incidently- would all posters here be as harsh if it was their own property that was being bid up?? (falsely or otherwise?)_

_In my opinion, only use IPAV or IAVI EA's - at least there is a governing body with a full complaints procedure._

_Murray_


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## Vanilla

> _I agree 100% with the point about the wrongful disclosing of full financial details from broker to EA - but the EA should have in writing from bank/broker , confirmation that the buyer can buy at the level agreed befor proceeding._


 
Why?


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## Mag2006

What about the scenario when the EA tells you "there is NO WAY" he/she will go to their vendor with a lower offer made eventhough the house is in a terrible state!. That happened to us so many times before we bought our house.
Also, what about the EA's who get their mortgage advisor to get a "quote" for you when all they want is to see the max you can borrow so they can rip you off. All I can say is the EA's have had it good for long enough and none of them can be trusted or are decent to deal with!.


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## Duplex

murray said:


> _I would love to see this happen , will he attract quality sales people to work for him? I dont think so !!_
> 
> _Maybe this could have worked in a strong bull market , but this idea, along with the internet companies (private seller.ie etc) have and never will take off to any significance. The market now , and as it tightens will need, more than ever , experienced sales people- many Mickey mouse one man band outfits will go under due to lack of experience in a bear market - and no sales/negotiation skills._
> 
> _Vendors and buyers will always need a 'middle-man' because of the stress involved during a sale - people loose all sense of rationality - the deals will fall through left right and centre because of their lack of experience. Sounds harsh, but so true._
> 
> 
> _Some points on this thread are valid , though the EA's that I know do a very stressful job, very well. (disclosure- I am an EA)_
> 
> _Remember,; _
> 
> _it is Vendors that gazump people, not EA's. _
> 
> _Ghost bidding is not nearly as frequent as people like to make out (though also not illeagal)_
> 
> _Only Vendors pay EA's not buyers. EA's Loyalty is with them at the end of the day.Buyers seem to forget this - maybe they could employ a buying agent (like in the USA)_
> 
> _Market Forces - if another bid comes in and you dont want to bid further, DONT BID THEN ! - If you are right and there was a 'ghost bid' , the property won't be 'sale agreed' will it?!(as one poster found out earlier in this thread, where he stopped bidding because he was wrongly convinced of ghost bidding and the house was sold to someone else)_
> 
> _I agree 100% with the point about the wrongful disclosing of full financial details from broker to EA - but the EA should have in writing from bank/broker , confirmation that the buyer can buy at the level agreed befor proceeding._
> 
> _Incidently- would all posters here be as harsh if it was their own property that was being bid up?? (falsely or otherwise?)_
> 
> _In my opinion, only use IPAV or IAVI EA's - at least there is a governing body with a full complaints procedure._
> 
> _Murray_


 


I tend to agree with this view.  Selling agents act for the seller not the buyer.  They also seem to be convenient scape goats, who are blamed for the greed and stupidity of others.


----------



## Rhino 1

Hi all,

Basic facts of my scenario,
1 Got EA from prime time,
2 they overvalued the property (by a lot),
3 they then put pressure to sell at a lower price,
4 unfortunately no call today so in limbo as the house is sale agreed.

I know its our fault for going sale agreed but we got what we thought was a good price on the property.

I still believe that prime time treated them harshly (as unlike murray) i think most small EA are similar


----------



## gearoidmm

murray said:


> _I agree 100% with the point about the wrongful disclosing of full financial details from broker to EA - but the EA should have in writing from bank/broker , confirmation that the buyer can buy at the level agreed befor proceeding._



Since when is it the EA business to know how much money a buyer can afford? It's exactly this attitude that leads to the spreadsheets etc and I for one would be extremely upset if my bank gave out any details to an estate agent. That bank would immediately lose my business (and possibly be off to court). I know that the EA would _like_ to know because it makes his job easier but that doesn't mean that he should.


----------



## murray

Vanilla said:


> Why?


 
Because if an EA agreed a sale on your property without checking that the buyers finances were in place , the bidder can (and they often try!) 'to pull the wool' , by telling the EA that they are in a position to buy , ie. "Oh, it's fine, mortgage all approved" .

Not much good to you when you have organised schools/furniture etc for your new house and it turns out that the buyer is just in the process of applying for a mortgage that he may or may not get/ just putting his own on the market and you know he will only get 700k and he thinks he will get 775k etc etc. ......

Again, I am saying that any decent EA should be prudent enough to confirm the buyer is good for the amount agreed (not that the EA should know the max a buyer is agreed for....)


----------



## gearoidmm

Rhino 1 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Basic facts of my scenario,
> 1 Got EA from prime time,
> 2 they overvalued the property (by a lot),
> 3 they then put pressure to sell at a lower price,
> 4 unfortunately no call today so in limbo as the house is sale agreed.
> 
> I know its our fault for going sale agreed but we got what we thought was a good price on the property.
> 
> I still believe that prime time treated them harshly (as unlike murray) i think most small EA are similar



I'm sorry, but I can't understand why anyone should have any sympathy for these people.  So their business might fail - they were systematically cheating people - it was in their training manual!!

Anywhere else with decent laws they'd be up in court


----------



## Vanilla

Murray, no one should rely on a sale or purchase until contracts are exchanged. IMO it is not the estate agent/auctioneers remit to check the buyers finances and is a slippery slope.


----------



## murray

Mag2006 said:


> What about the scenario when the EA tells you 1."there is NO WAY" he/she will go to their vendor with a lower offer made eventhough the house is in a terrible state!. That happened to us so many times before we bought our house.
> 
> 2.Also, what about the EA's who get their mortgage advisor to get a "quote" for you when all they want is to see the max you can borrow so they can rip you off.
> 
> 3.All I can say is the EA's have had it good for long enough
> 
> 4.and none of them can be trusted or are decent to deal with!.


 
_1.Mag2006- *All *offers should be put to the vendor , it is the 'rules'. If an EA says that, put a note through the door/kick up a fuss, they will buckle v.quickly._

_2.The mortgage advisor should not disclose the full financial details (ie max you can afford- and would almost certainly loose their jobs if they did/ and were found out)_

_3. To be fair , the market took off, right place right time, right industry..._

_4.. Tad unfair ! "All with the same brush" and all that ! Just goes to prove my point - people get 'Irrational' - imagine trying to deal with the problems that arise in a complicated house chain with no experience and a thought process like that !_  
_No personal offence intended Mag but you see my point?........_


----------



## almo

Maybe it sounds simplistic, but if you make a bid, and the EA says they won't bring it to the vendor, then go somewhere else!  As a collegue of mine found out a couple of weeks back, stupidity on the parts of vendor and purchaser is also a common element.  The old "I'm sorry but I'm changing my mind as the bare four walls on sale are worth double the market value" is something that embarasses the EA, while a purchaser who agrees a final price, wants everything to go ahead asap, then refuses to return calls and leaves the whole thing hanging until they finally are caught and haven't the 4,000€ to buy the land (honest it was this amount).  The Primetime exposure is timely, right after the budget, and no doubt will open some eyes, but like our Taoiseach accepting monies willy nilly, it'll blow over within a few days.


----------



## murray

Vanilla said:


> Murray, no one should rely on a sale or purchase until contracts are exchanged. IMO it is not the estate agent/auctioneers remit to check the buyers finances and is a slippery slope.


 
_So if I agreed your house, then it turns out 2 months down the line that he cant get the mortgage to buy it, and I tell you that it is not my job to check if he had the money??_

_The chain situation (which will become much more common , as we enter a 'real' property market - not the fantasy land we have been in) requires that more detail is known regarding EXACTLY which stage every link is at - ie. mortgage offer, survey, contracts etc._


----------



## Sunny

murray said:


> _In my opinion, only use IPAV or IAVI EA's - at least there is a governing body with a full complaints procedure._
> 
> _Murray_


 
Out of curiosity, if I do make a complaint about an agent to one of the above bodies, what penalties does the agent face if (and I would imagine that it is a big If) my complaint is upheld. Listening to the guy last night blaming the government for not introducing legislation as for the reason of some of the behaviour did not inspire me in confidence on the industry's ability to self-regulate. 

Estate Agents, Property Developers etc remind me of the banks in the bad old days when they thought they were above the law and could screw the average person whenever they liked. I am sure there are good estate agents out there but I have to be honest and say that they face a battle to convince a sceptical public that they have anyones interests (buyers or sellers) in mind when they do business. 

And if simply mortgages don't get prosecuted for data protection offences, this country really has gone to the dogs. Now we will see what teeth and balls the financial regulator has.


----------



## murray

The Primetime exposure is timely, right after the budget, and no doubt will open some eyes, but like our Taoiseach accepting monies willy nilly, it'll blow over within a few days.[/quote]

_Agreed , I can assure you , not ALL auctioneers work like this....._

_Yer man was lucky with the timing , right by Xmas etc - no one will bother tyalking about it in a few days._

_Licences for all EA's to practice - only way forward._


----------



## Stiofan

I'm struggling to understand why anyone has any sympathy for the EA in last nights programme. It doesn't matter if its not technically illegal, its completely unethical to run a business in such a way. That man ran his company like Arthur Daly sells car. Their use of MB to evaluate the maximum amount of debt a potential buyer can afford represents insider trading and market fixing, which if occured in a regulated industry anywhere in the world could lead to jail time.

What would happen to any of us if we were to take such an unethical approach to our jobs? I know what would happen to me, gone!!!


----------



## Markjbloggs

100% agree, Stiofan - the apologists really symptomise the Celtic tiger spirit, namely that whatever it takes to make money that is just about legal is justified.




Stiofan said:


> I'm struggling to understand why anyone has any sympathy for the EA in last nights programme. It doesn't matter if its not technically illegal, its completely unethical to run a business in such a way. That man ran his company like Arthur Daly sells car. Their use of MB to evaluate the maximum amount of debt a potential buyer can afford represents insider trading and market fixing, which if occured in a regulated industry anywhere in the world could lead to jail time.
> 
> What would happen to any of us if we were to take such an unethical approach to our jobs? I know what would happen to me, gone!!!


----------



## murray

Stiofan said:


> I'm struggling to understand why anyone has any sympathy for the EA in last nights programme.
> 
> _I have'nt !_
> 
> Their use of MB to evaluate the maximum amount of debt a potential buyer can afford represents insider trading and market fixing, which if occured in a regulated industry anywhere in the world could lead to jail time.
> 
> _Agreed, law needs to be enforced..._
> 
> What would happen to any of us if we were to take such an unethical approach to our jobs? I know what would happen to me, gone!!!


 
_Same here !_


----------



## murray

_I don't think anyone here has sympathy for the EA on Prime Time._

_But it is too easy to get carried away with the finger pointing , when a large number of people don't understand the business. (ie EA's work for the VENDOR only)_


----------



## almo

An open question on this, do Remax have licenced folks working or is it lke in the States and other countries where you buy a franchise?


----------



## Stiofan

Sorry Murray I do understand the business and have been privy to the unethical nature of the whole construction industry well before Primetime got wind of it. To say its widespread may be taking it a bit to far but such practices are common, maybe even very common.


----------



## murray

almo said:


> An open question on this, do Remax have licenced folks working or is it lke in the States and other countries where you buy a franchise?


 

One between them AFAIK


----------



## elcato

Eh sorry but is this news to anyone that EAs have operated in this way ? Rte simply made a program on practice that's been going on for years. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive at best. Like all things you have to be willing to pay the price you feel is worth it, otherwise move on. What next for rte ? Guys selling dodgy cars from side garages ? Scary ?


----------



## murray

Stiofan said:


> Sorry Murray I do understand the business and have been privy to the unethical nature of the whole construction industry well before Primetime got wind of it. To say its widespread may be taking it a bit to far but such practices are common, maybe even very common.


 
_Maybe among some circles. But we are getting onto another point here..._

_Still , if a buyer does'nt want to pay the price for a property , don't ._

_The market conditions dictate the price (of anything)_


----------



## Duplex

Any potential property buyer foolish enough to provide sensitive financial information to a mortgage broker tied to the agent acting for the vendor is asking for trouble . Irish people are far too trusting and gullible when it comes to matters financial. Expecting the government to introduce legislation to cater for widespread naivety doesn't address the root cause of the problem.


----------



## Markjbloggs

murray said:


> _._
> 
> _The market conditions dictate the price (of anything)_


 
If the market conditions are distorted due to deceptive practices, then it is no longer an efficient market and "prices" are not a true reflection of value.  

What if the whole property bubble has been based on prices set by scum-bag EA's and "everyone is at it" Auctioneers - scary thought!!!!!!


----------



## Sunny

Duplex said:


> Any potential property buyer foolish enough to provide sensitive financial information to a mortgage broker tied to the agent acting for the vendor is asking for trouble . Irish people are far too trusting and gullible when it comes to matters financial. Expecting the government to introduce legislation to cater for widespread naivety doesn't address the root cause of the problem.


 

Still makes the sharing of data illegal illegal illegal. Naivety on behalf of people doesn't change this fact.


----------



## MugsGame

> What if the whole property bubble has been based on prices set by scum-bag EA's and "everyone is at it" Auctioneers - scary thought!!!!!!



What if the market has been deflated by EAs passing on cut-price houses to well-connected under-bidders?

I dealt with an honest EA once -- the vendor tried to rip them off!

Shane Ross has no immediate plans to trade as an auctioneer (he intends to at some point, but that's a condition of being granted a license!). Bear in mind he has a Seanad election coming up and needs to raise his profile with publicity stunts.


----------



## Duplex

Sunny said:


> Still makes the sharing of data illegal illegal illegal. Naivety on behalf of people doesn't change this fact.


 

I agree that the practice is illegal and indeed unethical, but there is no way that the government can police 'insider information' exchange.  Its up to the public to cop them selves on.


----------



## murray

Markjbloggs said:


> If the market conditions are distorted due to deceptive practices, then it is no longer an efficient market and "prices" are not a true reflection of value.
> 
> What if the whole property bubble has been based on prices set by scum-bag EA's and "everyone is at it" Auctioneers - scary thought!!!!!!


 
_If people bid higher, at the point that they all walk bar one (the buyer) , that is the market value. - no distortion._

_Scumbag EA's responsible for bubble ??! Again, irrational point of view._

_What if the whole property bubble has been based on greedy vendors/purchasers? - ......._

_Interseting how nobody here answered the question I put forward earlier regarding ; would they feel so harsh about it all if they were a vendor - on the receiving end? (as im sure some of you are/were....)_


----------



## Markjbloggs

murray said:


> _If people bid higher, at the point that they all walk bar one (the buyer) , that is the market value. - no distortion._




But their higher bid is based only on deceptive practices by the EA/Auctioneer and has nothing to do with supply and demand, which should be setting the prices. That is distortion.


----------



## murray

Their higher bid has nothing to do with demand?

I see your point , but the buyer can walk at any point - if they are right (about a ghost bid), they will be in the driving seat very soon as EA has nobody to sell to.


----------



## murray

_Interseting how nobody here answered the question I put forward earlier regarding ; would they feel so harsh about it all if they were a vendor - on the receiving end? (as im sure some of you are/were....) *Markjbloggs?? what say you !?*_


----------



## Duplex

Markjbloggs said:


> [/i]
> 
> But their higher bid is based only on deceptive practices by the EA/Auctioneer and has nothing to do with supply and demand, which should be setting the prices. That is distortion.


 

The buyer is the party who decides how much a property is worth not the agent or the vendor.


----------



## murray

Duplex said:


> The buyer is the party who decides how much a property is worth not the agent or the vendor.


 
Correct !!!........


----------



## cik

murray said:


> _Interseting how nobody here answered the question I put forward earlier regarding ; would they feel so harsh about it all if they were a vendor - on the receiving end? (as im sure some of you are/were....) *Markjbloggs?? what say you !?*_



I agree completely, any vendor would be happy...but...that is a vendor in a sellers market...what happens to vendors ifthe market turns into a buyers market when the EA industry is discredited in the mind of the buyer?

You can fool some of the people, some of the time...

this is why you need standards and regulation, because if you dont people will eventually loose confidence in the market and when that happens...all the kings horses and all the kings men...


----------



## Sunny

murray said:


> Correct !!!........


 
What does the agent do?


----------



## Markjbloggs

murray said:


> _Interseting how nobody here answered the question I put forward earlier regarding ; would they feel so harsh about it all if they were a vendor - on the receiving end? (as im sure some of you are/were....) *Markjbloggs?? what say you !?*_


 
Never having been in the position, I can't say for definite but there would certainly be a large measure of guilt on my part that somebody had been cheated by a representative of mine.  I certainly would report the EA (or whoever had decieved my buyer), even if it meant a loss of some of my ill-gotten gains.


----------



## murray

Markjbloggs said:


> Never having been in the position, I can't say for definite but there would certainly be a large measure of guilt on my part that somebody had been cheated by a representative of mine. I certainly would report the EA (or whoever had decieved my buyer), even if it meant a loss of some of my ill-gotten gains.


 

Fair play to you then, you are in the minority.

However , the answer implies you would go along with it - as you would have no reason to feel guilty otherwise - and loose *some *of your ill gotten gains ??-


----------



## cik

murray said:


> Fair play to you then, you are in the minority.
> 
> However , the answer implies you would go along with it - as you would have no reason to feel guilty otherwise - and loose *some *of your ill gotten gains ??-



Murray, what happens in a buyers market?


----------



## murray

Sunny said:


> What does the agent do?


 
Marketing , get discounted advertising rates , organise and attend the veiwings , selling the property ,  sift the 'real' buyers from the 'tyre kickers' , negotiate the often sticky path to exchange and completion , often without the vendor (client) being aware of the pressured situation.

If we are talking about auctions - that is an art form ! very difficult to do well, only a handful of fantastic property auctioneers in the country.


----------



## mad m

Weird I didnt even start this thread,but I am first in line.There was a good few people before me at start....Hmmm


----------



## CCOVICH

This thread was split from another thread.


----------



## murray

cik said:


> Murray, what happens in a buyers market?


 
in what way CIK ?


----------



## Stiofan

Markjbloggs said:


> [/i]
> 
> But their higher bid is based only on deceptive practices by the EA/Auctioneer and has nothing to do with supply and demand, which should be setting the prices. That is distortion.


 
Couldn't agree more it is a distorted market and the application of a simplistic supply and demand model is incorrect. 

The fact that a EA acting on behave of a vendor knows what you can pay rather than what you want to pay distorts the true market equilibrium. Its human nature to aim higher even if its unaffordable but as Duplex pointed out the public do need to cop on to themselves. Its also a government's duty to protect the interests of its citizens in such circumstances by way of law, which unfortunately they have failed to do for whatever reason.


----------



## Sunny

murray said:


> Fair play to you then, you are in the minority.
> 
> However , the answer implies you would go along with it - as you would have no reason to feel guilty otherwise - and loose *some *of your ill gotten gains ??-


 
I am sure you are a very honest estate agent but do you not see the difference between someone paying 500,000 euro for a 450,000 house in an open competetive bidding process and someone payig 500,000 for the same house because the estate agent made up bids which is what the programme showed last night. You mention in earlier post that it is an infrequent occurance but point out that it is not illegal but you don't comdemn it or deny it happens in your industry. Just interested, from an ethical point of view would you condemn these activities or have you used ghost bids yourself?

As mentioned elsewhere people have probably been very naive in by taking estate agents at their word in the past so maybe we do deserve to be fleeced.


----------



## cik

murray said:


> in what way CIK ?



You seem to be suggesting that there is no adverse effects, its all market determined, the vendor is happy, the buyer isnt forced to do anything - generally a functioning market

I disagree, you are cashing in on the fact that it is a sellers market and this comes back to bite you in the *ss if/when it becomes a buyers market.   What happens then?

To achieve and maintain confidence in the proper functioning of the market you need proper regulation and not just 'let the buyer beware'.  If that is willfully foregone well then when the wheels can come off very easily...


----------



## murray

Stiofan said:


> Couldn't agree more it is a distorted market and the application of a simplistic supply and demand model is incorrect.
> 
> The fact that a EA acting on behave of a vendor knows what you can pay rather than what you want to pay distorts the true market equilibrium. Its human nature to aim higher even if its unaffordable but as Duplex pointed out the public do need to cop on to themselves. Its also a government's duty to protect the interests of its citizens in such circumstances by way of law, which unfortunately they have failed to do for whatever reason.


 
So the government should legislate against purchasers ego/human nature to loose the run of themselves?


----------



## murray

cik said:


> You seem to be suggesting that there is no adverse effects, its all market determined, the vendor is happy, the buyer isnt forced to do anything - generally a functioning market
> 
> I disagree, you are cashing in on the fact that it is a sellers market and this comes back to bite you in the *ss if/when it becomes a buyers market. What happens then?
> 
> To achieve and maintain confidence in the proper functioning of the market you need proper regulation and not just 'let the buyer beware'


 
Larger established agents wont be bitten on the *ss , exactly the opposite, vendors will pay higher fees because they are more anxious to sell , EA's spend more time with purchasers, many small EA's will go to the wall  -  basically less houses sold, higher fees.

BTW - it _is_ a buyers market.


----------



## cik

murray said:


> Larger established agents wont be bitten on the *ss , exactly the opposite, vendors will pay higher fees because they are more anxious to sell , EA's spend more time with purchasers, many small EA's will go to the wall  -  basically less houses sold, higher fees.
> 
> BTW - it _is_ a buyers market.



that is one scenario, another scenario is buyers (who have the power) wont trust EAs and will prefer to deal directly with vendors...
another scenario is vendors will have much less money to pay EA fees as there paper profits might not be what they used to be...

one thing you can take to bank in any future scenario is markets will evolve to remove those that dont add value and EAs only power is the value they add


----------



## Stiofan

murray said:


> So the government should legislate against purchasers ego/human nature to loose the run of themselves?


 
The government should put legislation in place to make such transactions more transparent which is currently not the case, ie ghost bidders. Until in place there will always be question marks over EA's practices in this country and righfully so.


----------



## murray

cik said:


> that is one scenario, another scenario is buyers (who have the power) wont trust EAs and will prefer to deal directly with vendors...
> another scenario is vendors will have much less money to pay EA fees as there paper profits might not be what they used to be...
> 
> one thing you can take to bank in any future scenario is markets will evolve to remove those that dont add value and EAs only power is the value they add


 
1.There has , and always will be EA's. 

2.The has , and always will be private sales. 

The number of deals that actually make it over the line (and highest prices acheived IMHO) will always be much higher in scenario 1.

The skills of calming situations, negotiation etc are learned over years and moving hundreds of people , not trying to do it once every 5yrs with 3 kids in the background !! You generally find that private sales are done where vendors either know the buyer , or find out they know the buyer and cut the agent out. It often ends in tears.....


----------



## liteweight

plaudit said:


> After seeing that program if I was buying a house or apartment and it was advertised with an EA I would just go up and bang on the door and tell them I will only deal with them directly, I'm sure they wouldn't mind as they too would be saving on the commission.



Unfortunately the EA could still claim his/her fee as presumably, it was their sign that alerted you the property was for sale.


----------



## murray

Stiofan said:


> The government should put legislation in place to make such transactions more transparent which is currently not the case, ie ghost bidders. Until in place there will always be question marks over EA's practices in this country and righfully so.


 
In Oz you have to register as an auction bidder (correct me if im wrong!)- more transparent , so good that way , though the EA's friend could register etc etc etc


----------



## murray

liteweight said:


> Unfortunately the EA could still claim his/her fee as presumably, it was their sign that alerted you the property was for sale.


 

And we are meant to be the crooks !!!!!


----------



## phoenix_n

murray said:


> In Oz you have to register as an auction bidder (correct me if im wrong!)- more transparent , so good that way , though the EA's friend could register etc etc etc


 
Yep you are right.


----------



## murray

Originally Posted by *plaudit* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=332327#post332327 
_After seeing that program if I was buying a house or apartment and it was advertised with an EA I would just go up and bang on the door and tell them I will only deal with them directly, I'm sure they wouldn't mind as they too would be saving on the commission._

And EA's are the crooks!?!? what about the EA who works 50+ hrs a week on a small basic & commission , uses his own car , views properties at 7.30pm for vendors who are just 'testing' the market? Is that fair?


----------



## Guest120

murray said:


> what about the EA who works 50+ hrs a week on a small basic & commission , uses his own car , views properties at 7.30pm for vendors who are just 'testing' the market? Is that fair?



Surely there are plenty of other professions about? 

What next? The car sales man who has to work a Saturday and put up with 'tyre kickers'.

Give me a break. My heart bleeds.


----------



## Stiofan

murray said:


> In Oz you have to register as an auction bidder (correct me if im wrong!)- more transparent , so good that way , though the EA's friend could register etc etc etc


 
Thats true but they lock you up in Oz for putting in ghost bids, not to sure about you but that would most certainly put me off the idea!!!

To be honest Murray i'm a bit confused as to why you would be so against stricter governance for EAs. I'm presuming (corrrect me if i'm wrong) you are in the industry in question and if it was me I would welcome any such changes that would remove any doubt that the public may have in me regarding my ethical approach to business.


----------



## auto320

plaudit said:


> After seeing that program if I was buying a house or apartment and it was advertised with an EA I would just go up and bang on the door and tell them I will only deal with them directly, I'm sure they wouldn't mind as they too would be saving on the commission.


Although I am no fan of EAs in Ireland, this approach is unfair and bordering on the dishonest. If the agent has contracted to sell the property and has spent money on highlighting it (including putting up a sign), it is unfair to try to do him out of his commission.

Anytime I have ever wanted to sell property I have used EAs; selling yourself will get you all kinds of messers who will be dealt with more effectively by an EA. What is it about us in Ireland that we begrudge marketing companies their commission? If they are breaking the law they need to be dealt with, but if they are doing what they do for agreed fees, what is the problem?


----------



## mad m

auto320 said:


> but if they are doing what they do for agreed fees, what is the problem?


Yeah like sell a vendors property for under 60k,thats the problem.Also telling vendors that people arent that interested in their property when there was....

I always thought they were a necessary evil,but if I was selling again I would go it alone.


----------



## col

Lets not forget this was sensational television and was meant to shock.Having said that I am not surprised that we have so many cowboys in this game. Regulations have to change and get the cowboys out.


----------



## roland

The property business is a textbook example of a honeypot for crooks and schiesters. 

- It has a large number of customers willing to part with large sums of money without asking too many questions
- They give this money to middlemen who are not regulated
- There are few, if any, barriers to entry, so anyone can start up in business

Any business like this is is naturally going to attract its fair share of crooks. Property attracts an even higher proportion because of the large sums of money involved. This is all common sense.

Here are some easy ways to get money: 

Estate agents: More often than not this means turning up for a few viewings and passing on bids. Not much more than secretarial work. Training needed? Not much. Your reward? 1%. Average house price in Dublin is €420k, so €4.2k a pop. That was pretty easy! 

Mortgage brokers: You look up the best mortgage buys in the paper, tell these to people who can't be bothered to buy a paper and then hire a junior to do the paperwork. Your reward? Another 1%. Now you're nearly at €8.5k. That was even easier.

But the best news yet is that you have people queuing up to hand out these sums to you. 

So, just do 2 of each a week and you're at nearly €900k a year. But, you've to pay the junior! Ah, that's right. €25k off that. Retire to Marbella. 

Is it any surprise there are crooks all over this business. 

Disclaimer: I am generalising above, and the nature of a generalisation means it applies in general and not to all in the above trades. I have no doubt there are many honest, skilled and highly-customer focused people in the above trades.


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## riviera

murray said:


> _I would love to see this happen , will he attract quality sales people to work for him? I dont think so !!_
> 
> _Maybe this could have worked in a strong bull market , but this idea, along with the internet companies (private seller.ie etc) have and never will take off to any significance. The market now , and as it tightens will need, more than ever , experienced sales people- many Mickey mouse one man band outfits will go under due to lack of experience in a bear market - and no sales/negotiation skills._
> 
> _Vendors and buyers will always need a 'middle-man' because of the stress involved during a sale - people loose all sense of rationality - the deals will fall through left right and centre because of their lack of experience. Sounds harsh, but so true._
> 
> 
> _Some points on this thread are valid , though the EA's that I know do a very stressful job, very well. (disclosure- I am an EA)_
> 
> _Remember,; _
> 
> _it is Vendors that gazump people, not EA's. _
> 
> _Ghost bidding is not nearly as frequent as people like to make out (though also not illeagal)_
> 
> _Only Vendors pay EA's not buyers. EA's Loyalty is with them at the end of the day.Buyers seem to forget this - maybe they could employ a buying agent (like in the USA)_
> 
> _Market Forces - if another bid comes in and you dont want to bid further, DONT BID THEN ! - If you are right and there was a 'ghost bid' , the property won't be 'sale agreed' will it?!(as one poster found out earlier in this thread, where he stopped bidding because he was wrongly convinced of ghost bidding and the house was sold to someone else)_
> 
> _I agree 100% with the point about the wrongful disclosing of full financial details from broker to EA - but the EA should have in writing from bank/broker , confirmation that the buyer can buy at the level agreed befor proceeding._
> 
> _Incidently- would all posters here be as harsh if it was their own property that was being bid up?? (falsely or otherwise?)_
> 
> _In my opinion, only use IPAV or IAVI EA's - at least there is a governing body with a full complaints procedure._
> 
> _Murray_




I agree with most of this.

In France, gazumping is outlawed. Once agreement has been reached on price, buyer and seller sign 'compromis de Vente'. Owner is now tied down to buyer at agreed price. Both buyer and seller hand over 10% deposit to neutral, governmental party (the Notaire), who holds it until final signing. If owner pulls out, he loses his 10% deposit. I have never heard of an owner pulling out.

If you think estate agents in Ireland are bad, go to the French Riviera - Machiavellian frogs.

Once the market slows down, estate agents will start to go under. It will take a big fall to clean out the non-competitive/non-professional EA's.

Caveat Emptor. 

Also, legally, in France, if you bid the asking price, the owner is obliged to accept.


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## murray

roland said:


> The property business is a textbook example of a honeypot for crooks and schiesters.
> 
> - It has a large number of customers willing to part with large sums of money without asking too many questions
> - They give this money to middlemen who are not regulated
> - There are few, if any, barriers to entry, so anyone can start up in business
> 
> Any business like this is is naturally going to attract its fair share of crooks. Property attracts an even higher proportion because of the large sums of money involved. This is all common sense.
> 
> Here are some easy ways to get money:
> 
> Estate agents: More often than not this means turning up for a few viewings and passing on bids. Not much more than secretarial work. Training needed? Not much. Your reward? 1%. Average house price in Dublin is €420k, so €4.2k a pop. That was pretty easy!


 
_*Easy as that !?? So why are there only a handful of successful EA companies then ? You should jump in the ring yourself if it is that easy ! Plenty of money for nothing.....!*_



roland said:


> Mortgage brokers: You look up the best mortgage buys in the paper, tell these to people who can't be bothered to buy a paper and then hire a junior to do the paperwork. Your reward? Another 1%. Now you're nearly at €8.5k. That was even easier.


 

_*Its a service that saves time in todays busy society, most people end up with a better deal - fact. If you want to go it alone - go ahead!*_


roland said:


> But the best news yet is that you have people queuing up to hand out these sums to you.
> 
> So, just do 2 of each a week and you're at nearly €900k a year. But, you've to pay the junior! Ah, that's right. €25k off that. Retire to Marbella.


 _*Yup , its just like that.....*_ 



roland said:


> Is it any surprise there are crooks all over this business.
> 
> Disclaimer: I am generalising above, and the nature of a generalisation means it applies in general and not to all in the above trades. I have no doubt there are many honest, skilled and highly-customer focused people in the above trades.


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## murray

col said:


> Lets not forget this was sensational television and was meant to shock.Having said that I am not surprised that we have so many cowboys in this game. Regulations have to change and get the cowboys out.


 
 Agreed, though i doubt it will ever happen , I would love to see a program from our (EA's) side - showing;

 peoples arrogance/ignorance/greed , 

how people think nothing of making an appointment to see a property late evening and not turning up etc...

how bidders try to bulls*it the EA , by saying they are in a better financial position than they really are

how vendors/purchasers pull out of a deal 3 months in (after the EA has carried out many viewings, let surveyors, valuers, negotiated a deal, dealt with solicitors, finance brokers and let tradesmen in to 'size up') then the EA gets paid nothing.............................................. (even left with an advertising bill sometimes, when the vendor renages on the agreement)

I think the French system (detailed by RIVIERA)  would work well here . Licences for all EA's as well - great idea.


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## Calina

murray said:


> how people think nothing of making an appointment to see a property late evening and not turning up etc...



My personal experience is of agents not turning up or turning up 20 minutes late. My time is valuable too. 

Murray you're in an industry where there are some very good people and there are quite a few bad people. You're also in an industry which is heading for a down turn which will leave a few people in some dire straits and society will be looking for a scape goat. 

But your industry has not aided itself. Representatives of your industry have defended morally bankrupt although not technically illegal practices such as ghost bids. Representatives of your industry have abdicated responsibility for regulation - when the time comes for estate agents to be regulated, they will almost certainly scream for self regulation - so why isn't it being done now? I have some sympathy for the good guys but my experience, while limited, is that they do not form a majority in your industry. 

For me the issue is this: a house purchase is, for the vast majority of people, the single largest financial transaction they will ever have. Yet their sole protection in it is caveat emptor. I have more protection buying a loaf of bread for a euro or two than I have buying a house for a half a million euro. The point is your industry facilitates the exchange of property so you have an interest - or should have an interest in making sure that all aspects of that industry are regulated. There is little point in abdicating that interest by saying you act on behalf of the vendor only. Certainly you may - but you are the link between the purchaser and the vendor and that does bring with it responsibilities and duties of care to the purchaser also. You can't pretend that the service you provide to the vendor is heavily dependent on your link to the purchaser.  Otherwise you really shouldn't be in the industry.


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## mf1

"For me the issue is this: a house purchase is, for the vast majority of people, the single largest financial transaction they will ever have. "

Agreed. 


"Yet their sole protection in it is caveat emptor. I have more protection buying a loaf of bread for a euro or two than I have buying a house for a half a million euro. "

Not true. You have your own common sense and your own solicitor 


"There is little point in abdicating that interest by saying you act on behalf of the vendor only. "

Purchaser has own protection in solicitor. 

"Certainly you may - but you are the link between the purchaser and the vendor and that does bring with it responsibilities and duties of care to the purchaser also. "

Only a link - they are introduced - it is for them through their solicitors to finalise the deal. 

I deal with EA's all the time. Thereare some very good ones and there are, I would say, only a few bad ones. That is my experience. It is unfair to blame EA's for everything. We have grubby and greedy vendors and purchasers - its been a Vendors market for a long time, its been competitive and hard work for purchasers. BUT it is the market that sets the price, purchasers  can always walk away. You don't ever have to buy.  

And I think that the Primetime programme was sensationalist but hardly heavy hitting. 

mf


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## elcato

Lads - If you want to move on to management I suggest this thread. 

One point springs to my mind with all these people saying they will sell themselves from now on. Will you tell potential buyers you have already received (ghost) bids or are you all honest people ? Will you go around telling the propective buyer about all the faults in the house ? Will you tell them you are moving cos the shower down the street are all noisy and drinking in the fields behind late at night ? etc etc .....


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## gearoidmm

elcato said:


> Lads - If you want to move on to management I suggest create a seperate thread. One point springs to my mind with all these people saying they will sell themselves from now on. Will you tell potential buyers you have already received (ghost) bids or are you all honest people ? Will you go around telling the propective buyer about all the faults in the house ? Will you tell them you are moving cos the shower down the street are all noisy and drinking in the fields behind late at night ? etc etc .....



LOL, so true.


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## ajapale

I have split the topic of property management companies (pt 2 of the PrimeTime programme) here.


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## cian8

Calina said:


> I have more protection buying a loaf of bread for a euro or two than I have buying a house for a half a million euro.


 
I think this is an excellent point and it is one I have been thinking about myself. When I buy any other product in the my back of my mind I am assured because (this is my understanding - I'm not an expert!) the product sold has to be of sufficient quality to serve the purpose for which it is sold, and if it doesn't (regardless of other factors like warranties, 16-day-money-back guarantees etc.) then I have a right to recompense from the vendor, be it a repair, a replacement or a refund. Basically it must do 'what it says on the tin'. Can anyone tell me why this is different for property? For example if a property is sold as X sq metres and turns out to be 10% smaller, surely this contravenes consumer laws and the purchaser is entitled to some comeback. 

So although I think that we need much more effective regulation in this sector, are purchasers not already protected by basic consumer laws? Am I missing something?



mf1 said:


> Not true. You have your own common sense and your own solicitor


 
Thats a bit flippant don't you think? What good is either your common sense or solicitor when some problem turns up after closing the sale of a property, I am sure you can search other threads on this board to see that very little can be done to force the vendor/developer to make amends. (Ideally said problems should be uncovered before closing but this isn't always possible)

To continue the loaf of bread analogy. If the bread is gone off within its use-by date you will be entitled to a refund/replacement. If the bread said it was white and turned out to be brown you will be entitled to a refund/replacement. If it says 500g and it is 400g you will be entitled to a refund/replacement..... etc. Furthermore, if you are not satisfied by the vendor, then you may bring your complaint to various consumer agencies and even take legal action. In all likelihoods if your complaint is valid, you will be protected by law and will eventually be able to enjoy your toast/sambo! Unlike buying property.


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## Olly64

i think the ea on prime time wont have much business after that documentary, what about simply mortgage, do they not have to sign a secreacy statment before going into business?


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## derryman

Probably off topic - but I notice that poor estate agent Murray (or is that Carlos...) posts a lot during normal working hours (on a late lunch myself mind you).  

I guess the property market must be a bit slow at the moment.

Got to go ......... before the "cabbage" police catch up with me for mentioning the taboo subject..............


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## murray

derryman said:


> Probably off topic - but I notice that poor estate agent Murray (or is that Carlos...) posts a lot during normal working hours (on a late lunch myself mind you).
> 
> I guess the property market must be a bit slow at the moment.
> 
> Got to go ......... before the "cabbage" police catch up with me for mentioning the taboo subject..............


 

LOL !  I'm not Carlos !

Yes the market is slow at the moment , I mentioned on a previous post that it is a buyers market at the moment,

Also, I have a few days off - hence the daytime emails !
Well spotted though !


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## exile

murray said:


> Yes the market is slow at the moment , I mentioned on a previous post that it is a buyers market at the moment,



If EAs create phantom bids in a seller's market, should buyers do the same in a buyer's market?  ("I've got a bid in below asking price on another house ... perhaps if you were willing to take a bit less for this one ...")


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## Olly64

exile said:


> If EAs create phantom bids in a seller's market, should buyers do the same in a buyer's market? ("I've got a bid in below asking price on another house ... perhaps if you were willing to take a bit less for this one ...")


 
maybe if all the buyers in the country underbid by a couple of grand it would lower prices and create a panic


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## dillons

murray said:


> _I don't think anyone here has sympathy for the EA on Prime Time._
> 
> _But it is too easy to get carried away with the finger pointing , when a large number of people don't understand the business. (ie EA's work for the VENDOR only)_


 
interesting viewpoint that but unfortunately the program also highlighted that EA's don't always work for the VENDOR as you put it.... sometimes they work for THEMSELVES only & are in cahoots with investors.


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## Guest111

I thought it was weird when that lady ended up paying the EA who tried to stitch her up...he hid the existence of the other bidder to (probably) look after his mate or make a quick sale.
Surely she could have just dumped him and dealt with the buyers directly? They wouldn't have a leg to stand on


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