# Form 11



## ft5j60j (8 Mar 2008)

HI there

Just got a From 11 in the post yesterday, Never got one before

Is this common?


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## Graham_07 (8 Mar 2008)

Form 11 usually only issues to those taxpayers with income in addition to PAYE income, e.g. self-employed or rentals or investments not otherwise handled on the PAYE return (Form 12) . However a Form 11 is a statutory form and must be completed. If you are not sure as to what triggered it, you could ring tax tax district at the number on the form.


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## gotsomenow (8 Mar 2008)

I got this form too yesterday.  I am puzzled by it, I wonder is it to do with having registered with ROS, because that's what was on the envelope.  I don't understand half of it either, I will ring them on Monday.


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## BobbyFowler (8 Mar 2008)

Be careful here.  I had never heard of a Form 11.  Submitted 3 years in row in one go. Got stung with a 10% charge for each of the years.


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## webtax (9 Mar 2008)

BobbyFowler said:


> Be careful here.  I had never heard of a Form 11.  Submitted 3 years in row in one go. Got stung with a 10% charge for each of the years.



What was the reason your tax office gave for having to complete a Form 11? You must have had some source of income outside of PAYE if they applied a charge?


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## BobbyFowler (9 Mar 2008)

I've got my own business.


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## darag (9 Mar 2008)

It's mandatory for all proprietary directors now where before you could
use a form 12 and only sole traders needed to file a form 11.  It appears  complicated if you haven't filed one before so you might want to consider getting professional advice (i.e. an accountant) for your first time but make sure you use the accountant to learn how to do it rather than getting into the habit of just passing it on to an accountant every year.  Best would be to attempt it yourself and then get an accountant to check it or go over it for you.  It's the type of work accountants hate anyway - they can only charge a grand or so and yet need to gather and confirm a lot of fiddly detail.

Subsequently or if you're happy enough to give it a go yourself, I found the ROS offline application to be helpful.  Unfortunately the printed form it produces has no statutary standing so you'll have to transcribe everything to the actually form 11 afterwards but the "wizzard" like structure is good to remind you of everything that need to be included.


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## webtax (9 Mar 2008)

Once you complete the offline Form 11 you can simply upload it through ROS - no need to transcribe it to a paper form.


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## Joe1234 (9 Mar 2008)

BobbyFowler said:


> I've got my own business.



Did you think you could have your own business and not make tax returns?  I presume you did not get an accountant when you started business.


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## Joe1234 (9 Mar 2008)

darag said:


> make sure you use the accountant to learn how to do it rather than getting into the habit of just passing it on to an accountant every year.  Best would be to attempt it yourself and then get an accountant to check it or go over it for you.



Unless you have extreme accounting knowledge and complete understanding of the current income tax system, then you should never try to complete a Form 11 for a business.  Get an accountant to do it for you.


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## darag (9 Mar 2008)

I bet to differ, Joe.  I would say it depends.

For proprietary directors, there is no "business" content in the Form 11 - it will have already been handled as part of the audited accounts of the company and remuneration will have been done through by PAYE.  The Form 11 just replaces the Form 12 which would they would have used before for additional income.

Even if you are a sole trader then in many instances using an accountant can be an overkill if it's a simple business.  For example I am an IT contractor and for years operated as a sole trader and paid accountants to do my trivially simple business accounts and file Form 11s for me.  Like I said, most accountants don't particularly have any interest in small jobs like this and I don't blame them in the least given the hassle involved for a relatively small sum.  One accountant actually told me this and instead of looking around for another accountant or paying double for the service, I learned how to do this myself.

As part of this I reviewed all the previous returns and discovered at least three basic mistakes between two accountants: one was where punt invoice amounts were recorded as euros, another overclaimed for pension contributions and another neglected to deduct accountant's expenses.  

Depends on your personality I suppose but I don't mind researching these things, ringing revenue for guidance the current rules and building systems using Excel to handle my accounts.  Each to their own but I suggest if you are numerically minded at all, are methodical and curious, your business is relatively simple and you're not scared by forms then it's worthwile and satisfying to learn enough about accounts and the tax system to do the return yourself.


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## Joe1234 (9 Mar 2008)

darag said:


> I am an IT contractor and for years operated as a sole trader and paid accountants to do my trivially simple business accounts and file Form 11s for me.



And since you stopped using an accountant can you be 100% certain that you have claimed every tax credit that you are entitled to?  If you got a letter in the morning notifying you of a revenue audit, would you be happy to be doing everything yourself?

As you are an IT contractor, you would be extremely computer literate, and so designing excel spreadsheets to suit your accounts would probably not be too difficult.  But imagine if you were a builder, plumber, farmer etc, who may not even know how to switch on a computer, the accountant is a very valuable person.

I hope that whenever you ring revenue for clarification on any issue, that you get speaking to a person who knows what they are talking about!

As you seem to be the exception to the rule, I wish you well as you complete your tax returns.


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## darag (9 Mar 2008)

Don't get me wrong, Joe.  I presume you're an accountant.  I still use the services of an accountant but not for what I'd consider fairly straightforward interactions with revenue like P30s, VAT3s and Form 11s.


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## Joe1234 (10 Mar 2008)

darag said:


> Don't get me wrong, Joe.  I presume you're an accountant.  I still use the services of an accountant but not for what I'd consider fairly straightforward interactions with revenue like P30s, VAT3s and Form 11s.



Ok.  thats fine.  I have come accross many people who were confident enough to deal with revenue on paye, vat and rct, but have rarely, if ever, met anyone who felt they could also d the form 11 themselves.  I would consider a form 11 straightforward, and yes, I do work in accounts.  

Im my experience you seem to be the exception rather than the rule.  Keep up the good work!!!


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## ubiquitous (10 Mar 2008)

darag said:


> ...  It's the type of work accountants hate anyway - they can only charge a grand or so.



I honestly don't know if any accountants are charging a grand for company director form 11 returns. Most such returns for directors of our company clients are charged at €250+VAT, or at €400+VAT if there is additional rental income.


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## darag (10 Mar 2008)

I should have qualified that, Ubiquitous.  I charge my time on a daily basis but would never take on a client for a once off job unless it was going to involve at least four days work.  I doubt you actually have clients who you invoice 250 + VAT a year?  Maybe you do but my experience with two accountants is that if it was going to be less than 1000 a year, then they weren't too pushed about the work.  Which as I said is understandable.  This is getting off topic.


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## ubiquitous (10 Mar 2008)

As I said, where we prepare accounts & statutory returns for a limited company, we can usually offer the directors of these companies the option to complete and file their form 11 return for a basic price of €250 plus vat for a "no other income" return or €400 plus VAT where they have rental income. Obviously, if their returns are complicated by some other issue, for example,  receipt of income from multiple or "exotic" sources, or trading income, these basic prices do not apply.


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## tinofapples (10 Mar 2008)

I've recently received the Form 11 in the post and haven't a clue what to do with it.

My situations is:

Up till last year I've been employed in the PAYE system but was made redundant last January. I took a couple of months off work then on Jobseekers allowance. I was briefly employed for approx 4 weeks in the summer but didn't stay and it cause couldn't stand the job. Then I decided to get a couple if things organized and start working for myself as a taxi driver. By the time I got started at that it was October so now i guess i have to fill out this but really don't know where to start.

Any tips or would I be better getting professional advice ? 

P.S I want to claim for depreciation on my car, have been told this can be done over a 3 year period but don't know much else.


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## Starbuck (11 Mar 2008)

I bought a rental property a few years ago and got a Form 11 to fill in each year since then. First time I saw it I panicked and hired an Accountant to do the return. He proved to be utterly incompetent and in fact failed to even submit the form. I received a big tax hit (and penalty) as a result.

However, I called the tax office and explained how I'd been let down by this hero. They were excellent. Very sympathetic, and gave me all the help I needed to complete the form myself. I ended up with a refund, and they even cancelled the late filing charge.

I've done my own return every year since.
This year I'm doing it online.

The online form is somewhat less intimidating (IMHO). You can just work through it slowly and save it between visits.

I only have run into one problem - if you have an answer I'm all ears!
I can't get my 'Maintenance' payment to actually show any reduction in total tax payable (when I hit the 'calculate' button). For some reason it makes no difference whether its inserted or not in the calculation.

I'll get around to ringing them about it. It's probably something simple.


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## Joe1234 (11 Mar 2008)

Starbuck said:


> they even cancelled the late filing charge.



Very unusual that they cancelled the surcharge.  The onus is on the taxpayer to ensure that the return is submitted on time regardless of who is acting on their behalf.


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## Starbuck (12 Mar 2008)

I'm just a charmer.

Seriously though, they aren't the ogres they're painted to be.

Stop Press: Just talked to the Revenue Online Help Desk. They informed me that there is indeed a problem with the online Form 11. An option to select 'Married but Separated' has to be added to allow Maintenance Payments to be registered - the fix is coming in April.


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## Clarkey (12 Mar 2008)

Joe1234 said:


> Very unusual that they cancelled the surcharge. The onus is on the taxpayer to ensure that the return is submitted on time regardless of who is acting on their behalf.


 
If there was a tax refund or no tax payable (Before preliminary tax) then there is no surcharge as this is calculated as a percentage of tax due. They might not have cancelled the surcharge, maybe it didn't apply.


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## ubiquitous (12 Mar 2008)

Revenue can be willing to cancel surcharges if there are extenuating circumstances. Their willingness to do so varies among district offices and sometimes within them.


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## Joe1234 (12 Mar 2008)

Clarkey said:


> If there was a tax refund or no tax payable (Before preliminary tax) then there is no surcharge as this is calculated as a percentage of tax due. They might not have cancelled the surcharge, maybe it didn't apply.



Correct.  But my reply was to a post which clearly stated that the revenue cancelled a surcharge.  If there was no surcharge because of the reasons you outlined, then there would be nothing to cancel!


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## Joe1234 (12 Mar 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Revenue can be willing to cancel surcharges if there are extenuating circumstances. Their willingness to do so varies among district offices and sometimes within them.



Yes, I know that revenue can cancel surcharges in exceptional cases, but it is very unusual.  I would deal with Dundalk district, and am having trouble remembering any case where they cancelled a surcharge.


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## ubiquitous (12 Mar 2008)

Joe1234 said:


> Yes, I know that revenue can cancel surcharges in exceptional cases, but it is very unusual.  I would deal with Dundalk district, and am having trouble remembering any case where they cancelled a surcharge.



Oddly enough, I find Dundalk district generally quite reasonable in this regard - when there are genuinely extenuating circumstances.


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## Joe1234 (12 Mar 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Oddly enough, I find Dundalk district generally quite reasonable in this regard - when there are genuinely extenuating circumstances.



Maybe I have given out to them too much, and they say, not him again - no way are we going to accomodate him!!!


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## D8Lady (12 Mar 2008)

Mind if I borrow this thread? 

My sister works in a regular PAYE job with no other income from any source. I'm a contractor with my own company. My sister  is  my silent co-director who has no benefit, income or shares from the company. 

She has been sent a Form 11. Does she have to fill it in? 

D8L


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## Joe1234 (12 Mar 2008)

D8Lady said:


> Mind if I borrow this thread?
> 
> My sister works in a regular PAYE job with no other income from any source. I'm a contractor with my own company. My sister  is  my silent co-director who has no benefit, income or shares from the company.
> 
> ...



Yes, she must fill it in.  All company directors are obliged to complete a Form 11 each year.  The surcharges mentioned earlier, are even more severe for a company director.


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## D8Lady (12 Mar 2008)

Yikes! thanks for the update Joe1234. Will be on to the accountant.


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## Joe1234 (13 Mar 2008)

D8Lady said:


> Yikes! thanks for the update Joe1234. Will be on to the accountant.



When did she become a director of the company?


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## mik_da_man (13 Mar 2008)

Joe1234 said:


> Yes, she must fill it in. All company directors are obliged to complete a Form 11 each year. The surcharges mentioned earlier, are even more severe for a company director.


 
Cheers for the heads up on that - I must check to see if my Dad got a Form 11 too I'm in the same boat as *D8Lady*

*Mik*


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## mcattack (13 Mar 2008)

i recieved a form 11 in the post today??? i am employed on paye and also drive a taxi part time occassionally. WHAT DO I DO???


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## ubiquitous (14 Mar 2008)

mcattack said:


> i recieved a form 11 in the post today??? i am employed on paye and also drive a taxi part time occassionally. WHAT DO I DO???



If you have self-assessment income, which you do, you must file an annual form 11 tax return.


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## Allen (14 Mar 2008)

mcattack said:


> i recieved a form 11 in the post today??? i am employed on paye and also drive a taxi part time occassionally. WHAT DO I DO???


 
I think there is a taximen's union of some sort that will guide you on this if you become a member.  May be very useful in relation to the allowances you can claim.


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## korpy (24 Apr 2008)

I received myself a form 11! I'm employed on paye and last year applied for a tax clearance cert to become a taxi driver, however  I did pass the exam for the driver licence only this year and still not applied for the taxi licence ( trying to get together the money for the licence, insurance ..) so I don't have a second income for 07.
What should I do regarding form 11?


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