# Fitzpatrick's Loans?



## bamboozle (23 Dec 2008)

Does anyone know what interest rate he paid on these loans?

i'm just interested that the board of Anglo would be doing their best to maximise shareholder profits by ensuring any loans given out were earning money for its shareholders.
apologies if this has been addressed elsewhere.


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## LDFerguson (23 Dec 2008)

A good question.  Unfortunately I don't know the answer.  I posted my own related queries here...


What was FitzPatrick's €87M used for?
Why did he go to such lengths to hide these loans over an eight year period?


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## tallpaul (23 Dec 2008)

LDFerguson said:


> What was FitzPatrick's €87M used for?


 
With any luck he bought Anglo shares and he is now left with a pile of worthless paper and a whopping great loan to pay back...


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## bamboozle (23 Dec 2008)

i'm sure he would have received plenty of Anglo shares as part of his terms of employment, i'd guess he used those shares as collatoral against the 87m loan...
one things for sure is his stock options aint worth what they used be...


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## rmelly (23 Dec 2008)

it was reported that all directors loans were on standard commercial terms. Whether this applied to his loans is not clear...


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## Padraigb (23 Dec 2008)

tallpaul said:


> With any luck he bought Anglo shares and he is now left with a pile of worthless paper and a whopping great loan to pay back...



If he is unable to pay it back, the bank takes a big hit. Ultimately, the way things are going, that means the taxpayers would pick up the tab.

So let's the the vengeful dream in proportion: that he has just enough assets to redeem the loans, and nothing over.


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## rmelly (23 Dec 2008)

There was an article in the SBP about some of his investments including one in an oil company he made with Lars, not sure of the amounts but think it was €20m or more.


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## Towger (23 Dec 2008)

LDFerguson said:


> What was FitzPatrick's €87M used for?


 
From : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article5375904.ece



> The minister said the investigation uncovered details of FitzPatrick’s hidden loan, which then came into the public domain on Thursday evening. FitzPatrick has invested in a number of ventures, including an oil well in Nigeria and a casino in Macau.


 
So I was not the only one to get those emails from Nigera 




> i'd guess he used those shares as collatoral against the 87m loan...
> one things for sure is his stock options aint worth what they used be...


 
That is what I have read/heard. He had about 80m in Anglo shares.




> it was reported that all directors loans were on standard commercial terms. Whether this applied to his loans is not clear...


 
I am also interested in the rate he paid. It must have been a better one than Irish Nationwide were giving him!




> With any luck he bought Anglo shares and he is now left with a pile of worthless paper and a whopping great loan to pay back...


 
Not by the sounds of it. Unlike Sean Quinn's share holding :


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Dec 2008)

What Sean Fitzpatrick did was wrong. 

But it is in everyone's interest that he has sufficient assets to dispose of to repay the €87m. 

Don't forget that any amounts he can't pay back will be effectively at the expense of the taxpayer who will pick up any deficit if Anglo is insolvent.

brendan


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## smiley (23 Dec 2008)

Brendan said:


> What Sean Fitzpatrick did was wrong.
> But it is in everyone's interest that he has sufficient assets to dispose of to repay the €87m.



I agree. What he did was wrong but im sure hes not feeling the happiest person in the world at the moment.

Why do the Irish love to see successful business people get into trouble?? Its a truely dreadful trait we have. Fitzpatrick is a highly successful business person who set up a fantastic business in Anglo. They set it up from nothing and in the face of massive competition from the likes of the imcumbent aib and boi etc.
Anglo is an entrepreneurs bank and has led to some very successful achievements for Irish business people.

If anglo dies it will be a very very disappointing, worrying and disturbing day for Ireland.


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## z109 (23 Dec 2008)

smiley said:


> I agree. What he did was wrong but im sure hes not feeling the happiest person in the world at the moment.
> 
> Why do the Irish love to see successful business people get into trouble?? Its a truely dreadful trait we have. Fitzpatrick is a highly successful business person who set up a fantastic business in Anglo. They set it up from nothing and in the face of massive competition from the likes of the imcumbent aib and boi etc.
> Anglo is an entrepreneurs bank and has led to some very successful achievements for Irish business people.
> ...


You don't see any contradictions in your post?
"what he did was wrong"/"why do the irish love to see successful business people get into trouble" --> er, he did it all by his lonesome. Schadenfreude exists in every country. Look at the abuse Helmut Kohl got in Germany when caught with his hand in the till.

"fantastic business in Anglo"/"If anglo dies" --> not so fantastic then, is it, when the first real downturn in the Irish economy destroys it utterly. Few can say that a business is good or bad until it hits a rocky patch.


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## WaterSprite (24 Dec 2008)

smiley said:


> I agree. What he did was wrong but im sure hes not feeling the happiest person in the world at the moment.
> 
> Why do the Irish love to see successful business people get into trouble?? Its a truely dreadful trait we have. Fitzpatrick is a highly successful business person who set up a fantastic business in Anglo. They set it up from nothing and in the face of massive competition from the likes of the imcumbent aib and boi etc.
> Anglo is an entrepreneurs bank and has led to some very successful achievements for Irish business people.
> ...



What??!!  It's not schadenfreude to demand answers from a company director who clearly has engaged in "inappropriate" practices.  I'm all for entrepreneurship, but I'm also for honesty and transparency when you are a director of a company (and so is the Director of Corporate Enforcement).  What I would love to have seen is a successful business person who didn't hide massive loans he was given from his own company for *8 years running*.  Yeah, "inappropriate" all right.... It's a friggin' joke and a disgrace.


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## Robin Banks (28 Dec 2008)

smiley said:


> What he did was wrong but im sure hes not feeling the happiest person in the world at the moment.


 
Unhappy because he deliberately deceived his shareholders, or unhappy because he was caught out?


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## Simeon (28 Dec 2008)

smiley said:


> I agree. What he did was wrong but im sure hes not feeling the happiest person in the world at the moment.
> 
> Why do the Irish love to see successful business people get into trouble?? Its a truely dreadful trait we have. Fitzpatrick is a highly successful business person who set up a fantastic business in Anglo. They set it up from nothing and in the face of massive competition from the likes of the imcumbent aib and boi etc.
> Anglo is an entrepreneurs bank and has led to some very successful achievements for Irish business people.
> ...


I'm not quite sure that Irish people like to see their heros fall ......... providing they have not been hoisted up on the plinth by a false premise. Now, 'a sucessful business man' in my book would be a person that built up or carried on a legal enterprise. Otherwise some notable taxi-drivers, airport operators, TDs et al could also be considered as 'successful business people', when what they did was rob banks, fence stolen property and not pay their legal debts. So surely the word 'successful' should be used in tandem with 'legal'. As for the famous Irish begrudgery? It's only when our idols get a bit uppity!


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## danash (1 Jan 2009)

smiley said:


> Why do the Irish love to see successful business people get into trouble?? Its a truely dreadful trait we have. Fitzpatrick is a highly successful business person who set up a fantastic business in Anglo. They set it up from nothing and in the face of massive competition from the likes of the imcumbent aib and boi etc.
> Anglo is an entrepreneurs bank and has led to some very successful achievements for Irish business people.
> 
> If anglo dies it will be a very very disappointing, worrying and disturbing day for Ireland.


 

Our Emperors have been wearing no clothes - for a very long time. Maybe we should all have spoken out about these 'highly successful business persons."


When Anglo gave (some of ) the Ballsbridge loans they weren't being 'highly successful' - they were bankrupting the country.


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## VOR (2 Jan 2009)

IMO the Ballsbridge debacle is a banking issue and not a planning issue.


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## beekeeper (7 Jan 2009)

investor1 said:


> Smiley, speaking of contradictions your reference to fitzpatrick as " a highly successful business person who set up a fantastic business in Anglo" has to be right up there. Ask an Anglo shareholder who lost 95% plus last year, or ask yourself why a successful business needs a bailout??


 
Couldnt agree more.. I think its time to wake up Smiley


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## smiley (7 Jan 2009)

beekeeper said:


> Couldnt agree more.. I think its time to wake up Smiley




I am quite awake thanks very much. I know quite a few anglo investors myself included.
Some have held shares for over 20 years. I am still a shareholder and am happy to still own part of the company. If the bank is totally nationalised so be it. I am well diversified. Thats the name of the investing game. You are not going to win them all. It doesnt happen.


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## danash (7 Jan 2009)

Smiley -  after losing your shirt in Anglo you want to sing the praises of the guy who caused it - and it's alright - 'because you are diversified'

Fair play to you....


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## smiley (7 Jan 2009)

danash said:


> Smiley -  after losing your shirt in Anglo you want to sing the praises of the guy who caused it - and it's alright - 'because you are diversified'
> 
> Fair play to you....



Im diversified, so i cant lose my shirt.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jan 2009)

Smiley is making a very valid point. You should be able to handle a 100% loss of any particular investment. 

The senior executives of Anglo appear to have been fully invested in Anglo and probably had borrowed money to do so. This would be a very foolish strategy. 

If Smiley has a broad portfolio, he can live with the loss of his investment in Anglo and take a balanced and relaxed view of events. If he had bet his shirt on Anglo, he would be less forgiving. 

This is a theoretical point about diversification. I am not excusing Fitzpatrick's behaviour.

Brendan


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## Bronte (8 Jan 2009)

smiley said:


> Why do the Irish love to see successful business people get into trouble??


  I cannot believe you use the word successful in relation to this person's actions.  It will take me a long time to get over hearing him being interviewed by Marian Finucane and that's before we heard some of what's going on.  And I say some.  As for anyone who thinks he got the loans at normal commercial rates...... no way, it was normal "special" commercial rates.  The rates you and I cannot get.   The auditors didn't even spot 'the loan' so who is to say what is a normal commercial rate.  It's a lovely cozy club with those bankers.  As it was ever and will ever be.


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## tyoung (8 Jan 2009)

The problem is that correlation seems to have increased across asset classes. Owning a geographically diverse bunch of stocks didn't help last year. Owning property, junk bonds, emerging market bonds. even investment grade bonds didn't help. Unless you owned cash/Govt. bonds you got whacked last year.
We may need to rethink what diversification means.


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## smiley (8 Jan 2009)

tyoung said:


> Owning a geographically diverse bunch of stocks didn't help last year. We may need to rethink what diversification means.



Last year? I couldnt give a monkeys about one year. Anybody that takes a short term view like this might as well go down to the bookies.

Personally speaking i would own a basket of about 15 companies with more money invested in some, much in a similar way to what Mohnish Pabrai advocates in his book 'The Dhando Investor'.


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## Spondulicks (9 Jan 2009)

Let's see what the Institute of Chartered Accountants makes of the affairs of the three accountants who have now resigned from Anglo - the Chair, the CEO and the FD. Wow!


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## smiley (11 Jan 2009)

I never realised this but in the past company executives were often given loans that were subsequently 'forgiven'. Yes, 'forgiven'. Companies would give loans to senior managers at below market rates of interest and then often quietly forgave the loans a few years later.

In the US this used to go on until the Sarbanes-Oxley act banned it in 2002. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes-Oxley_Act

So at least Sean Fitzpatrick wasnt given a golden handshake.


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## Bronte (12 Jan 2009)

smiley said:


> So at least Sean Fitzpatrick wasnt given a golden handshake.


  Well if he doesn't have to pay back the loan what would you call that? Forgiven loan. If he paid little or no interest on it what would that be called?  Normal commercial rate.  Aren't words great.


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## Spondulicks (12 Jan 2009)

When someone says it is not the money its the principle, it usually IS the MONEY.

It is is worth remembering this as a regulatory principle.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Jan 2009)

Sorry folks - I really like my home.

I have had to delete defamatory comments and the responses. 

Brendan


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## smiley (13 Jan 2009)

Bronte said:


> Well if he doesn't have to pay back the loan what would you call that? Forgiven loan. If he paid little or no interest on it what would that be called?  Normal commercial rate.  Aren't words great.



He does have to pay back the loan. Nobody said he never had to pay back the loan.


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2009)

smiley said:


> He does have to pay back the loan. Nobody said he never had to pay back the loan.


 We'll see.


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