# How is the new Covid travel penalties for those on welfare enforced?



## arandomdirtyman (27 Jul 2020)

There's a lovely new welfare related travel penalty that drops your payment (regardless of filling out the holiday form) for a week while you are abroad and for two weeks when you return. I guess it makes sense but I'm curious... for science... how is it enforced?

Are there agents at the airport taking PPS numbers from everyone? There's a Tweet for Dublin Airport saying that they are not giving out any information at all but that they can't speak for 3rd parties. I guess the 3rd parties are DSP agents. How are they netting travelers? Is it something voluntary? Or are PPS numbers getting squeezed out of random fliers?

The DAAs twitter response has given some good replies on it, worth a looksie


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## NoRegretsCoyote (27 Jul 2020)

There is a legal basis for this. The obligation is on the airlines, not the airport:



> The Regulations transposing the Directive include provisions setting out that the Minister may require air carriers to collect data on passengers for the purposes of establishing whether a passenger is a person of concern which is defined in Regulation 1(a) as
> _"person of concern" means a person who—
> .........
> *(v) an offence under the Social Welfare Acts,*_
> ...



Am personally very happy that taxpayers' money is being safeguarded in this fashion.


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> There is a legal basis for this. The obligation is on the airlines, not the airport:
> 
> 
> 
> Am personally very happy that taxpayers' money is being safeguarded in this fashion.



There caught approx 100 people, the cost of enforcing this prob costing tax payer alot more tax payers money, having all those inspec tors hanging around the airports. These people are not unemployed as such, they still technically employed. In a week when we see junior government ministers getting hefty payrises worth thousands of euros, this leaves a sticky taste.


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> These people are not unemployed as such, they still technically employed


That's not correct - you are confusing the Pandemic Unemployment Payment with the Temporary Wage Subsidy Scheme.

The PUP is paid to those that are actively seeking employment in Ireland.

You obviously can't be seeking employment in Ireland if you are on your holidays on the continent!

It seems weird to me that anybody would object to the PUP being withheld in these circumstances.


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

Aren't people who are currently on unemployment assistance entitled to "two weeks holidays" what's the difference.  Are they just picking out one group to discriminate against  or what..


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> Aren't people who are currently on unemployment assistance entitled to "two weeks holidays" what's the difference


How do you take a holiday if you are unemployed?  Holiday from what exactly?

How is it discrimination to stop a welfare payment that is payable to somebody that is actively seeking work to a person that is not, in fact, actively seeking work?

You obviously can't be actively seeking work if you are on holidays or if you are self-isolating on your return. 

Incidentally, it's not just PUP payments that have been stopped - jobseekers' payments have also been stopped.


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> How do you take a holiday if you are unemployed?  Holiday from what exactly?
> 
> How is it discrimination to stop a welfare payment that is payable to somebody that is actively seeking work to a person that is not, in fact, actively seeking work?
> 
> ...


. 

Ok, I wasn't aware all means tested welfare payments were included. 

However, how are job Interviews been conducted at the moment?? I know of one person on the payment currently in Southern France, he has had three interviews via zoom and if lucky enough to get a job will fly home.  So you dont need to be based here to look for work. Loads of people now working from home can locate to any warm climate for few months so why not the unemployed if they can prove they looking for work.
.


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> I know of one person on the payment currently in Southern France, he has had three interviews via zoom and if lucky enough to get a job will fly home.


Well, he would have to self-isolate for two weeks when he returns home.

Do you think it's fair that the Irish taxpayer should pay for his holiday and two week quarantine?  I don't.


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

He had very very high paying job before pandic and paid thousands of euro in taxes for many many years. 

I really feel the resources involved to police this could be put to far better use. There is not far off a million people depending on gov for welfare assistance. It's not that the country is flush with jobs right now.


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## Purple (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Well, he would have to self-isolate for two weeks when he returns home.
> 
> Do you think it's fair that the Irish taxpayer should pay for his holiday and two week quarantine?  I don't.


If the job entails working from home then he can work away while self isolating.
I'm not a big fan of this sort of thing. People on welfare go on holidays every year. Why has it suddenly become a problem?


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> If the job entails working from home then he can work away while self isolating.


Grand but he doesn't need the PUP in that case.


Purple said:


> Why has it suddenly become a problem?


Because the rules changed (for fairly obvious policy reasons).


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## Purple (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Grand but he doesn't need the PUP in that case.


Yes, but he remains available to work during his holiday and during the 14 day period of isolation. 



Sarenco said:


> Because the rules changed (for fairly obvious policy reasons).


What are the obvious policy reasons?


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> What are the obvious policy reasons?


The Government is trying to discourage people from travelling abroad.


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## Purple (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> The Government is trying to discourage people from travelling abroad.


But only if they are the PUP or other forms of welfare it seems. If they don't want people to travel then they should stop people from travelling. They should not stop some people from travelling. I'm all for reforming the welfare system but not like this.


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## odyssey06 (27 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> But only if they are the PUP or other forms of welfare it seems. If they don't want people to travel then they should stop people from travelling. They should not stop some people from travelling. I'm all for reforming the welfare system but not like this.



How would you propose they legally stop people from travelling without getting into a constitutional or EU treaty minefield?


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> But only if they are the PUP or other forms of welfare it seems


No, the advice relates to everybody.

It would be bonkers if the Government was advising people not to travel while simultaneously making welfare payments to people who choose to ignore this advice.


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> No, the advice relates to everybody.
> 
> It would be bonkers if the Government was advising people not to travel while simultaneously making welfare payments to people who choose to ignore this advice.



But they still publish a green.list .....


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## Purple (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> It would be bonkers if the Government was advising people not to travel while simultaneously making welfare payments to people who choose to ignore this advice.


They are; everyone with a State funded pension or on any form of welfare outside that group who chooses to travel will continue to be paid.


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> But they still publish a green.list .....


They did.

But they didn't change the no travel advice.


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## Purple (27 Jul 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> How would you propose they legally stop people from travelling without getting into a constitutional or EU treaty minefield?


I dunno, but luckily I employ people, via the tens of thousands of Euro I pay every year in taxes, to come up with the answers to those questions. Luckily we have some of the best public servants in the world, just ask them, they'll confirm it. They could sort that out no problem.


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> any form of welfare outside that group who chooses to travel will continue to be paid


From Citizens Information -

If you are getting Jobseeker's Benefit, Jobseeker’s Benefit (Self-employed), or Jobseeker’s Allowance you can go on holiday on the island of Ireland for a maximum of 2 weeks and get the 2 weeks payment on your return. Since 7 July 2020, *you will only be paid for a holiday abroad that is in accordance with the General COVID-19 Travel Advisory in operation*. You will also not be paid for the 14 days that you are required to self-isolate when you return from abroad.


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> They did.
> 
> But they didn't change the no travel advice.



Why on earth publish a green list in the first place. Whose idea was this??


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> From Citizens Information -
> 
> If you are getting Jobseeker's Benefit, Jobseeker’s Benefit (Self-employed), or Jobseeker’s Allowance you can go on holiday on the island of Ireland for a maximum of 2 weeks and get the 2 weeks payment on your return. Since 7 July 2020, *you will only be paid for a holiday abroad that is in accordance with the General COVID-19 Travel Advisory in operation*. You will also not be paid for the 14 days that you are required to self-isolate when you return from abroad.




How were people to know of this policy change?? I read papers regularly. I never read anything about this anywhere.


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## odyssey06 (27 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> Why on earth publish a green list in the first place. Whose idea was this??



Wasn't there an EU summit? I expect we had to, based on the agreed protocol there of comparable case counts.
I think it was published rather reluctantly.


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## Purple (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> From Citizens Information -
> 
> If you are getting Jobseeker's Benefit, Jobseeker’s Benefit (Self-employed), or Jobseeker’s Allowance you can go on holiday on the island of Ireland for a maximum of 2 weeks and get the 2 weeks payment on your return. Since 7 July 2020, *you will only be paid for a holiday abroad that is in accordance with the General COVID-19 Travel Advisory in operation*. You will also not be paid for the 14 days that you are required to self-isolate when you return from abroad.


Exactly; anyone receiving any other form of welfare can travel without losing anything. That includes all State funded pensions, disability allowance, widow(er)s pension, loan parents allowance, carers allowance or any one of the myriad of other welfare payments we give to people.


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> How were people to know of this policy change?


The statutory instrument was signed on 10 July 2020.




__





						S.I. No. 242/2020 - Social Welfare (Consolidated Claims, Payments and Control) (Amendment) (No. 9) (Absence from the State) Regulations 2020
					

The electronic Irish Statute Book (eISB) comprises the Acts of the Oireachtas (Parliament), Statutory Instruments, Legislation Directory, Constitution and a limited number of pre-1922 Acts.



					www.irishstatutebook.ie


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> The statutory instrument was signed on 10 July 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Never to be changed either, plenty new statutory instruments brought in under cover of Covid.

I still feel it's very unfair to target PUP recipients to this rule without being Informed of  this policy change.  It's not that they are part of the 'pyjama brigade' who have never worked a day in their lives.


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## arandomdirtyman (27 Jul 2020)

I think there's some slight derailment here, I'm not trying to dig up the ethics of being unemployed and travelling I'm just trying to see how it's enforced. Are the PPS numbers being grabbed from passports once a client is checked in/peeped through security or do you have to volunteer the info at the airport to random DSP agents. The DAA Tweeted that they are not personally giving out any information but there they can't speak for third parties who operate within the airport.

It all sounds kind of creepy

I just want to know how they are catching people at the airport


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## elacsaplau (27 Jul 2020)

Wait a second here!

Has Michael Martin followed the government's travel advisory protocols upon his return from the summit in Brussels?


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> I still feel it's very unfair to target PUP recipients to this rule


That SI doesn't relate to PUP.


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## Pinoy adventure (27 Jul 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> How would you propose they legally stop people from travelling without getting into a constitutional or EU treaty minefield?



Close the boarders too international travel including Northern Ireland.


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

Pinoy adventure said:


> Close the boarders too international travel including Northern Ireland.



They won't do that as we too dependent on foreign investment.


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## Pinoy adventure (27 Jul 2020)

arandomdirtyman said:


> I think there's some slight derailment here, I'm not trying to dig up the ethics of being unemployed and travelling I'm just trying to see how it's enforced. Are the PPS numbers being grabbed from passports once a client is checked in/peeped through security or do you have to volunteer the info at the airport to random DSP agents. The DAA Tweeted that they are not personally giving out any information but there they can't speak for third parties who operate within the airport.
> 
> It all sounds kind of creepy
> 
> I just want to know how they are catching people at the airport




How they check is when you hand the security (SW inspector) your boarding pass too scan just befour you go into the scanning area/security check.
They scan your boarding pass and your info will come up on there computers which is in front of them.
They do this quiet often too check welfare tourist from certain country's flying in too collect there  there payments


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## Pinoy adventure (27 Jul 2020)

elacsaplau said:


> Wait a second here!
> 
> Has Michael Martin followed the government's travel advisory protocols upon his return from the summit in Brussels?



No because it's essential travel.


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## Early Riser (27 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> Why on earth publish a green list in the first place. Whose idea was this??



The Green List in no way changed the advice not to travel unless it is for essential purposes. The only change is that people returning from Green List countries do not have to restrict their movements.

I think the concept of the Green List is good, but they should have called it somthing else. We automatically think green is for "Go".


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> Exactly; anyone receiving any other form of welfare can travel without losing anything. That includes all State funded pensions, disability allowance, widow(er)s pension, loan parents allowance, carers allowance or any one of the myriad of other welfare payments we give to people.


Yes but there isn't a specific provision in the welfare code that allowed recipients to be outside the State for a two week holiday without becoming disqualified.

Hence the change was limited to jobseekers payments.


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## Early Riser (27 Jul 2020)

Pinoy adventure said:


> Close the boarders too international travel including Northern Ireland.



The border to NI was never closed, even at the height of the troubles. It would be impossible to enforce.


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## elacsaplau (27 Jul 2020)

Pinoy adventure said:


> No because it's essential travel.



Hi Pinoy,

My point is not related to whether Martin's trip was essential or not.

It relates to his behaviour upon his return - which demonstrably is in breach of the guidelines issued by the Department of the.......wait for it....Taoiseach!!





__





						Designated States for Mandatory Hotel Quarantine
					






					www.gov.ie


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## Early Riser (27 Jul 2020)

elacsaplau said:


> Hi Pinoy,
> 
> My point is not related to whether Martin's trip was essential or not.
> 
> It relates to his behaviour upon his return - which demonstrably is in breach of the guidelines issued by the Department of the.......wait for it....Taoiseach!!



There was a special exemptiom, it seems:

_Taoiseach Micheál Martin and two officials accompanying him to the EU summit in [broken link removed] will not have to self-isolate on their return but will have to restrict their personal movements.
*As essential workers who must undertake international travel as part of their work*, the Taoiseach and his officials will not have to adhere to the 14-day self-isolation on their return, but a spokeswoman for the Government said the Taoiseach would restrict his personal movements.
Mr Martin will not be required to restrict his movements around work. He will be allowed to attend sittings of the Dáil in Leinster House and at the alternative parliamentary venue at the Convention Centre in Dublin along with meetings of Cabinet in Dublin Castle.
The Taoiseach and the two officials, John Callinan, second secretary general at the [broken link removed] and his diplomatic “Sherpa” at international summits, and assistant secretary Helen Blake, will be tested immediately for Covid-19 on their return and again seven days later._









						Taoiseach, diplomatic ‘Sherpa’ and assistant secretary exempt from 14-day quarantine
					

Three-member delegation will undergo test on return from Brussels




					www.irishtimes.com


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## arandomdirtyman (27 Jul 2020)

Pinoy adventure said:


> How they check is when you hand the security (SW inspector) your boarding pass too scan just befour you go into the scanning area/security check.
> They scan your boarding pass and your info will come up on there computers which is in front of them.
> They do this quiet often too check welfare tourist from certain country's flying in too collect there  there payments



How can you be sure? Where are you getting this from if you don't mind me asking? I'm pretty sure that's the DAA are the ones scaning your boarding pass before you go through security, and Dublin Airport did tweet that they won't give out any information. 

Plus if there were trying to grab welfare tourists coming home they could only get them on the outbound that way

Where did you hear about this my good man?


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## Purple (27 Jul 2020)

Pinoy adventure said:


> How they check is when you hand the security (SW inspector) your boarding pass too scan just befour you go into the scanning area/security check.
> They scan your boarding pass and your info will come up on there computers which is in front of them.
> They do this quiet often too check welfare tourist from certain country's flying in too collect there  there payments


I've never noticed anyone from the department of social protection checking boarding passes at the airport. Most people leaving through Dublin Airport use the self service scanners. People arriving have their passports checked by  I don't travel that much now but up until a few years ago I was averaging about 40 outbound flights a year from Dublin. Those arriving go through passport control which is staffed by the Border Management Unit (BMU), which is under the directorship of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) of the Department of Justice and Equality. Are you saying those guys check to see if people are on welfare?


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Just heard Richard Boyd Barrett making a very fair point on the radio.

He's arguing that the SI that allows for the payment of benefits to people travelling overseas to be withheld is explicitly linked to the Department of Foreign Affairs advice and that non-essential travel to countries on the famous Green list is now exempted from the general advice against non-essential travel overseas.

He's right!

From the SI –

_"Article 217 of the Social Welfare (Consolidated Claims, Payments and Control) Regulations 2007 ( S.I. No. 142 of 2007 ) is amended in sub-paragraph (i) of paragraph (d) by the substitution of “holiday, in accordance with the Covid-19 General Travel Advisory in operation by the Department of Foreign Affairs,” for “holiday"._

From the Department of Foreign Affairs website-

_"In accordance with Government policy, which is based on official public health advice, the Department of Foreign Affairs continues to advise against non-essential travel overseas. This includes Great Britain but does not apply to Northern Ireland. It also includes all travel by cruise ship. However, as of 21 July, travel to a very limited set of locations is exempted from this advice. The security status for those locations to which non-essential travel can resume has been changed to ‘normal precautions’ (“green”) rating."_


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

That puts a very different twist on it then.


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## Sarenco (27 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> That puts a very different twist on it then.


Indeed.

Richard Boyd Barrett argued that the travel advice is the problem.  I'm inclined to agree.


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## elcato (27 Jul 2020)

Pinoy adventure said:


> How they check is when you hand the security (SW inspector) your boarding pass too scan just befour you go into the scanning area/security check.
> They scan your boarding pass and your info will come up on there computers which is in front of them.


I, too, am very curious as to how they get a PPS number from the information on the boarding pass. You're never asked for a PPS number when booking any flight.


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## Saavy99 (27 Jul 2020)

It's being discussed in radio now.


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## Pinoy adventure (27 Jul 2020)

arandomdirtyman said:


> How can you be sure? Where are you getting this from if you don't mind me asking? I'm pretty sure that's the DAA are the ones scaning your boarding pass before you go through security, and Dublin Airport did tweet that they won't give out any information.
> 
> Plus if there were trying to grab welfare tourists coming home they could only get them on the outbound that way
> 
> Where did you hear about this my good man?



I've seen it.
DAA do most of the time,but from time too time SW inspectors stand beside them with there laptop computers set up and check a certain amount of people passing true.
If your name is on there database you will be asked if you notified them of your ''holiday'' (which they can check too/it's a requirement too notify them befour you leave).
They will let you proceed with your holiday but once you arrive home you'll have too visit a SW office too sort your stuff out.
They would be mainly checking outbound tourists as this is where the bigger Savings too the state occur.

The same would apply for ports too.


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## Pinoy adventure (27 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> I've never noticed anyone from the department of social protection checking boarding passes at the airport. Most people leaving through Dublin Airport use the self service scanners. People arriving have their passports checked by  I don't travel that much now but up until a few years ago I was averaging about 40 outbound flights a year from Dublin. Those arriving go through passport control which is staffed by the Border Management Unit (BMU), which is under the directorship of the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) of the Department of Justice and Equality. Are you saying those guys check to see if people are on welfare?



All passengers have too scan there boarding pass/scanned PDF on there phones too get into the security check area.
INIS don't check if your on welfare.


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## elacsaplau (27 Jul 2020)

What precisely is essential / non-essential travel?

Who decides?

Has detailed guidance been drafted?

There must be loads of grey areas?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (27 Jul 2020)

elcato said:


> I, too, am very curious as to how they get a PPS number from the information on the boarding pass. You're never asked for a PPS number when booking any flight.



Of course they don't.

However your flight booking contains name and date of birth which in >99.9% cases will generate a unique match on DSP's database of welfare claimants.


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## Pugmister (27 Jul 2020)

Out of curiosity could this also catch people who are making fraudulent claims. I know of a number of self employed individuals (tradesmen) who are still claiming and receiving the payment and have been back working since day 1 of the restrictions being lifted. Some of these also have holidays planned. Could a potential revenue audit be triggered under this new scheme ?


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## Bronte (28 Jul 2020)

Pinoy adventure said:


> How they check is when you hand the security (SW inspector) your boarding pass too scan just befour you go into the scanning area/security check.
> They scan your boarding pass and your info will come up on there computers which is in front of them.
> They do this quiet often too check welfare tourist from certain country's flying in too collect there  there payments


I’ve travelled into and out of Dublin frequently. Both terminals. 

In the old terminal, ground floor, on left inside building, you go through metal scanning machines which scan your boarding card, then you queue for hand luggage To go through the X-ray machines. Where is SW officers in that scenario. 

In the new terminal you go up the stairs, straight ahead you join a queue, normally to the right, but sometimes to the left, a person scans your boarding card. Then it’s on to get bags x-rayed. Where is SW in that case.


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## Bronte (28 Jul 2020)

Pinoy adventure said:


> No because it's essential travel.


But he still has to quarantine?


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## Purple (28 Jul 2020)

Pinoy adventure said:


> All passengers have too scan there boarding pass/scanned PDF on there phones too get into the security check area.
> INIS don't check if your on welfare.


Yes, that's the point I was making.


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## Purple (28 Jul 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Of course they don't.
> 
> However your flight booking contains name and date of birth which in >99.9% cases will generate a unique match on DSP's database of welfare claimants.


I very much doubt a private company would be allowed to pass on that information to the DSP without specific legislation. In order to act on it in read time they would have to have access to a DSP database and there's no way they would have that access under GDPR.  



Pinoy adventure said:


> I've seen it.
> DAA do most of the time,but from time too time SW inspectors stand beside them with there laptop computers set up and check a certain amount of people passing true.
> If your name is on there database you will be asked if you notified them of your ''holiday'' (which they can check too/it's a requirement too notify them befour you leave).
> They will let you proceed with your holiday but once you arrive home you'll have too visit a SW office too sort your stuff out.
> ...


 Okay, I've never seen that but I'm not questioning that it happens.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (28 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> I very much doubt a private company would be allowed to pass on that information to the DSP *without specific legislation. *



Read the thread!



Purple said:


> In order to act on it in read time they would have to have access to a DSP database and there's no way they would have that access under GDPR.



It's the other way round. The airlines would be obliged to share the info with DSP.

The amount of conspiratorial thinking on this is unreal........


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## Early Riser (28 Jul 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The amount of conspiratorial thinking on this is unreal.....



Yup - makes you wonder who is behind these conspirators.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (28 Jul 2020)

Early Riser said:


> Yup - makes you wonder who is behind these conspirators.



Sadly it's quite organic.

The google search "ireland information sharing airline social protection" has a top result which links to the legal basis for the information sharing.

Thousands of people: journalists, politicians, but mainly people on twitter weren't able to find this


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## Sarenco (28 Jul 2020)

Statement from the Department of Social Protection on the travel related welfare cuts -








						Department of Social Protection: 'The PUP is not paid to people who leave the country to live elsewhere, or who go on holidays abroad'
					

The Department said that the vast majority of welfare payments that were ceased were to people who left the country “permanently”.




					www.thejournal.ie
				



Interesting that there is no mention of the fact that the legal instrument that allows for the payment of benefits to people travelling overseas to be withheld is explicitly linked to the Department of Foreign Affairs advice, which now provides that non-essential travel to countries on the famous Green list is now exempted from the general advice against non-essential travel overseas.


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## elacsaplau (28 Jul 2020)

The government is really making the rules up as they go along - dems the facts.

When, for example, did PUP become conditional on actively seeking work?

What is the definition of essential / non-essential travel?

If you get covid - and thereby are unable to actively seek work - is your benefit stopped? 

What is the statutory basis for all of the above?

Presumably, such a list of anomalies could go on and on. The biggest joke is asking poor people to contact the department of social welfare for guidance. No "call centrer" is likely to meaningfully be able to help whilst all the anomalies exist.


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## Bronte (28 Jul 2020)

I still don't understand this.  The Dept of Social Welfare is able to know the name and date of birth of a passenger who leaves Dublin airport.  What is the legal basis for that.


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## Bronte (28 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Department of Social Protection: 'The PUP is not paid to people who leave the country to live elsewhere, or who go on holidays abroad'
> 
> 
> The Department said that the vast majority of welfare payments that were ceased were to people who left the country “permanently”.
> ...


_Cooney said that two “plain clothed Gardaí” looked at his passport and ID for what they said were “immigration purposes”, and was never told that it was related to his social welfare payment. They did not ask for his PPS number. _
_​__He said that the Department of Social Protection knew his flight number, the time he flew, and the airline he flew with._

So the Gardai are checking passports and handing over that information to Social Welfare. The article is very confusing.


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## Sarenco (28 Jul 2020)

The Irish Times has a good Q&A on what is rapidly looking like a complete mess -








						Q&A: What’s going on with the Pandemic Unemployment Payment?
					

New rules mean people travelling may lose benefits and must be ‘genuinely seeking work’




					www.irishtimes.com


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## NoRegretsCoyote (28 Jul 2020)

Bronte said:


> I still don't understand this.  The Dept of Social Welfare is able to know the name and date of birth of a passenger who leaves Dublin airport.  *What is the legal basis for that.*



Read the thread!


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## Sarenco (28 Jul 2020)

@NoRegretsCoyote

The Department isn't saying that it received data from airline carriers under those regulations-

“As part of its normal control work, the Department of Social Protection carries out compliance inspections at ports and airports throughout the course of the year. Since 2012, social welfare inspectors have had legal powers to carry out these checks as part of the ongoing control and compliance work they are engaged in.

The legal basis for these checks is Section 250 (16) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended by Section 17 of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2012.

The Department does not have access to travel data, nor does it have access to travel locator forms from any airport or port."

Section 250(16) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 provides as follows:-


“(16A) For the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, a social welfare inspector may attend at any port.(16B) Where, while attending at any port for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, a social welfare inspector—(_a_) has reasonable grounds to believe that there has been a contravention of this Act, and(_b_) is accompanied by—(i) a member of the Garda Síochána,(ii) an officer of Customs and Excise, or(iii) an immigration officer,the social welfare inspector concerned may, on production of his or her certificate of appointment—(i) question and make enquiries of a person who is a passenger at the port and is preparing to embark, or is embarking, from, or has landed in, the State in relation to any matter that concerns compliance with this Act, and(ii) request such person to produce to that inspector any documents or other information as that inspector may reasonably require for the purposes of establishing the identity, and, where appropriate, the habitual residence, of that person.”,


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## NoRegretsCoyote (28 Jul 2020)

@Sarenco 

Thanks. I had looked this up before DSP had issued their statement you reference above..

I would have been quite frankly amazed if DSP inspectors had been floating round the airport looking for personal data without a legal basis.


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## Sarenco (28 Jul 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> DSP inspectors had been floating round the airport looking for personal data without a legal basis.


Well, to add to the saga, there were suggestions on the Joe Duffy show this afternoon that DSP were not in fact acting within the above powers in obtaining the personal data (i.e. they didn't have reasonable grounds to believe there was a contravention of the Act and didn't produce an inspection card).


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## elcato (28 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> there were suggestions on the Joe Duffy show this afternoon that DSP were not in fact acting within the above powers in obtaining the personal data


Oh good God, the cibil libertees guys are now ringing Joe Duffy


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## Sarenco (28 Jul 2020)

elcato said:


> Oh good God, the cibil libertees guys are now ringing Joe Duffy


No, the caller wasn't a civil liberties type.

He was travelling to Romania with his family to visit a terminally ill relative of his wife and when they returned to Ireland the DSP turned off their child benefit payments.

I'd recommend listening back to the interview on the player if you get a chance - I thought he was very impressive.


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## Saavy99 (28 Jul 2020)

Heard MM on radio this evening saying vast majority who had their Covid payments stopped were people who had permanently left the country..........
So nothing to do with people taking a holiday. He also said he would like a review  of people living here who have had their payments stopped.


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## Sarenco (28 Jul 2020)

Saavy99 said:


> Heard MM on radio this evening saying vast majority who had their Covid payments stopped were people who had permanently left the country..........
> So nothing to do with people taking a holiday. He also said he would like a review  of people living here who have had their payments stopped.


I heard that as well and thought it was interesting.

Our new Taoiseach does love his reviews ...


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## Purple (29 Jul 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Read the thread!


Have you read the link you posted? 
_"The Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, Mr. Alan Shatter, T.D., has signed Regulations transposing into Irish law an EU Directive requiring air carriers to provide advance passenger data to Irish Immigration authorities for the purposes of improving border control and combating illegal immigration.

The Regulations will apply to all inbound flights to Ireland *from outside the EU* and to all passengers on those flights." _



NoRegretsCoyote said:


> It's the other way round. The airlines would be obliged to share the info with DSP.
> 
> The amount of conspiratorial thinking on this is unreal........


 It seems it is DSP staff who are doing the checking, not airline or airport staff. As I pointed out there is no way the airline of airport staff would be allowed to collect PPS numbers, or any other information not mandated by law, without breaching the GDPR. Given that plenty of airlines which are based outside the EU fly from Irish Airports there is no way that they would be allowed to collect sensitive personal data on EU citizens on behalf of an EU government.  I'm not basing that on any conspiracy theory but rather the excellent personal data protection and privacy laws which are in place within the EU.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (29 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> Have you read the link you posted?



Yes I did. It was in the context of people saying that there was no legal basis and before the examples on Liveline which seem to have concerned people going to EU destinations. It appears there is another legal basis anyway, not surprisingly.



Purple said:


> Given that plenty of airlines which are based outside the EU fly from Irish Airports there is no way that they would be allowed to collect sensitive personal data on EU citizens on behalf of an EU government. I'm not basing that on any conspiracy theory but rather the excellent personal data protection and privacy laws which are in place within the EU.



There are lawful reasons for transfer of personal data, not least in the context of law enforcement.


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## Purple (29 Jul 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Yes I did. It was in the context of people saying that there was no legal basis and before the examples on Liveline which seem to have concerned people going to EU destinations. It appears there is another legal basis anyway, not surprisingly.


Okay, so you know that your link had nothing to do with this issue. Why did you post it?



NoRegretsCoyote said:


> There are lawful reasons for transfer of personal data, not least in the context of law enforcement.


 There may well be lawful reasons for a transfer of  personal data but the gathering and holding of that data by companies outside the EU is the issue, specifically under the Integrity and Confidentiality requirements, as well as the Accountability requirements, of the GDPR.


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## Sarenco (29 Jul 2020)

Minister to sign a new regulation allowing those in receipt of PUP to travel to green list countries without having their payment suspended.








						Review finds 85 cases may have lost PUP due to holiday
					

The Department of Social Protection said it has identified 85 people who lost their Pandemic Unemployment Payment as a result of holidaying abroad, but may be entitled to it back.




					www.rte.ie
				




What a fiasco.


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## Purple (29 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Minister to sign a new regulation allowing those in receipt of PUP to travel to green list countries without having their payment suspended.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bring back the Blueshirts!


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## NoRegretsCoyote (29 Jul 2020)

Purple said:


> Okay, so you know that your link had nothing to do with this issue. Why did you post it?



You doubted that a legal basis for such a hypothetical data transfer existed. I showed that it did.


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## Purple (29 Jul 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> You doubted that a legal basis for such a hypothetical data transfer existed. I showed that it did.


No you didn't. Have you read your own link?
The airlines collect passport and citizenship information for non-EU citizens travelling to the EU. All of that information is already contained within the passport. Crucially it is collected under the requirements of an EU directive. They do not collect social security information on EU citizens travelling within the EU.


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## Bronte (29 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Minister to sign a new regulation allowing those in receipt of PUP to travel to green list countries without having their payment suspended.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's so funny. What a mess.  It was always the case that people on the dole could go on holiday so I don't see the issue. I also don't see why they should be treated any differently to any other Irish person as regards where they go.  Why can someone not on PUP go to places not on the Green list but those on it cannot. That's discrimation.


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## elcato (29 Jul 2020)

Bronte said:


> Why can someone not on PUP go to places not on the Green list but those on it cannot. That's discrimation.


People who use their own money are allowed go anywhere. People who are relying on handouts from the government are subject to rules to get that payment.


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## elacsaplau (29 Jul 2020)

It's actually scary how inept this administration has been on this and other issues. In this particular case, it's been clear since the story broke that they really had not thought it through and were just making it up as they went along. Overall, very poor start as Taoiseach for MM - is he out of his depth?


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## Saavy99 (29 Jul 2020)

They have made a complete and utter mess of this. All of the people on the PUP payment lost their jobs over night, many most likely booked and paid for their holidays months ago before this ever occurred. To hound the innocent ones at the airport as they were leaving  was nothing short of dispicable. Not one word of this change in policy was ever communicated to any person. MM & Co are off to a mighty start.


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## Pinoy adventure (29 Jul 2020)

There is talk now of membe


Purple said:


> Have you read the link you posted?
> _"The Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence, Mr. Alan Shatter, T.D., has signed Regulations transposing into Irish law an EU Directive requiring air carriers to provide advance passenger data to Irish Immigration authorities for the purposes of improving border control and combating illegal immigration.
> 
> The Regulations will apply to all inbound flights to Ireland *from outside the EU* and to all passengers on those flights." _
> ...



Gardai connected too the DSP are also now requesting information from passengers if the passenger is unwilling too provide it too the SW inspector.
They have made a big mess of this


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## Sarenco (29 Jul 2020)

I really don't understand why the Minister insists on linking travel advice and the residency requirements to qualify for any particular social welfare benefits.  There should be no connection between the two.

Separately, I think we are now in the territory where the Government should be appointing a third party to investigate this whole saga.


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## Purple (29 Jul 2020)

Sarenco said:


> I really don't understand why the Minister insists on linking travel advice and the residency requirements to qualify for any particular social welfare benefits.  There should be no connection between the two.
> 
> Separately, I think we are now in the territory where the Government should be appointing a third party to investigate this whole saga.


They already have three parties, that's a big part of the problem.


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