# BASF Walltite Insulation - Experiences?



## Shane007 (15 Nov 2013)

Anybody know anything about BASF Walltite Insulation. It's pumped into the cavity as a liquid, expands to fill every nook & cranny. Where the existing polystyrene insulation has come away from the wall, it rams it back & fills everything.
A customer of mine had it done during the summer & notices a big difference in the lack of draughts in his house & notices how the house doesn't cool down easily.
When it as pumped in, he saw little snots of it around windows, vents, basically everywhere the blocklayers didn't do a great job with detail.

So my question is has anyone or know of anyone else who had it done & how much did it cost?
There are only about 10 installers certified by BASF to install it & I had one of them round last week.
He priced it at €24 per m2 plus vat so it's coming in at €6,000. He priced bonded beads at €2,100.

My take is you can only fill the cavity once & if this system is the system of the norm for the future, I would rather spend on this one.


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## lowCO2design (20 Nov 2013)

have you a link to iab cert ?


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## Shane007 (20 Nov 2013)

It is not iab certed, but bba certed. Apparently more test results due to be released in coming days.
I spoke to the manufacturer rep today & it's the only closed cell application on the market for cavities. All others are open cell.


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## Guns N Roses (21 Nov 2013)

BBA is a British Certification System. I would doubt that it would be acceptable in Ireland.

Just because it's certified in the UK doesn't necessary mean it will be suitable for Irish applcations.

I would wait until it's IAB certifed first before taking a chance. With the new Building Control Regulations coming out in March 2014, I can't see any Architect/Engineer certifying it solely on the basis it's BBA Certified.


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## Shane007 (21 Nov 2013)

Guns N Roses said:


> BBA is a British Certification System. I would doubt that it would be acceptable in Ireland.
> 
> Just because it's certified in the UK doesn't necessary mean it will be suitable for Irish applcations.
> 
> I would wait until it's IAB certifed first before taking a chance. With the new Building Control Regulations coming out in March 2014, I can't see any Architect/Engineer certifying it solely on the basis it's BBA Certified.



I know BBA is a UK certification. How would it be not suitable for Irish applications? Nearly every building regulations in Ireland is a straight copy of the UK regs with the words UK crossed out & replaced with Irish! The level of certification process is far superior in the UK than in Ireland as they have Building Control, streams of avenues continuously reviewing & altering the regs to suit the current market place.
I spent many years of my working life & my training life in the UK & I have more trust in their system than in ours. Our climates are very similar also.

Secondly, it is not for a new build so I do not require an architect to certify it. If I pump the walls with beads, an architect would not be certifying that either.

I understand your concerns, but what I was hoping for was for experiences from people who have direct experience of the system. I only know of one person & he has given me an extremely positive report but it was only installed this summer.

But thank you for your reply.


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## robflanagan (28 Feb 2014)

*walltite*

Shane2007

How did you get on with the walltite/Econ guys? I'm very interesting in using their product in a renovation project. Did it work out at the same cost that was quoted initially?

Rob


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## Shane007 (1 Mar 2014)

Hi Rob,
The guys only just finished the install this week, Wednesday evening. I wasn't expecting to notice an immediate change but that night was enormous noticeable changes.
First off, the main reason I got it installed in the first instance was due to the cold temperature in both my daughter's bedrooms, which could rarely get above 17C. They are both north facing with 2 outer walls each. My hall is 6m x 4m x 5.5m high which is a gallery hall. This was always difficult to heat with the UFH being such a large space. I am trying to heat really two rooms of equal size with the floor area for the UFH of one room.
My kitchen is south facing, again approx 7m x 4m plus a breakfast room off that, open plan in a large living room.
What I noticed that night, bedrooms were reading 20C. Kitchen 21C. Next morning the same. Next evening, bedrooms 21C & kitchen 22C. The heating has been on the same length of time but shutting down much earlier. One of daughters said she is too warm in bed & keeps waking up the wrong way round in bed!
An enormous noticeable difference in the lack of drafts in the house. During the install the product was oozing out of little hairline cracks around windows, doors, below sills, above lintels. The contractor spent hours with a special machine removing the snots of product where they came out.
At the start of the installation, the product kept shooting out of other drill holes as my existing polystyrene had come away from the wall. Then you would hear the crack, where it was being rammed back against the wall & the product was no longer shooting out. They also drilled below my radon barrier to ensure it reached down to the foundations.
I used my thermal image camera before & after & the heat loss had gone.

Cost wise, I did have to change my contractor as the first one kept not turning up for appointments. The second contractor was excellent & very professional. They came a long distance to do the install also. Cost wise was €5,800 inclusive. IMO very much worth it as you can only fill your cavity once & this is closed cell so my air tightness was done also. It also gets into places beads will never get to. It is not a PIR insulation so it will not shrink with time.
If you wish to know the contractor I used, post a recommendation sought in the recommended trades section & I can give you the details there.


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## robflanagan (4 Mar 2014)

Shane

I'm delighted to hear of your experience. You know yourself, all brochures will only give a positive spin. That does seem to be a good price particularly when you compare it to an internal system with airtightness membranes. I'd be delighted if could pass on the contractor's details through the recommended trades section. Many thanks
Rob


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## Shane007 (4 Mar 2014)

Hi Rob,
I think you have to make the request on the recommended trades forum & then I and anybody else can give you their recommendations.


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## Guns N Roses (4 Mar 2014)

FYI

Extract from HomeBond House Building Manual

"The use of full fill cavity wall insulation is limited both in terms of external wall construction and in terms of exposure conditions.

In areas of normal exposure, fair-faced unrendered brickwork is acceptable for full fill cavity wall insulation up to two storeys in height with a minimum cavity width of 90mm and up to three storeys in height with a minimum cavity width of 140mm.

In areas of severe exposure, unrendered brickwork is not suitable for full-fill cavity wall insulation.

Cavity walls with the outer leaf constructed using unrendered fair-faced blockwork are not suitable for full-fill cavity wall insulation.

Full-fill cavity wall insulation must be appropriately certified in relation to the intended use and conditions of use, as per the guidance outlined above, and must be installed in accordance with the requirements of its Agrement certificate. The map included in the Agrement certificate outlines the area of normal and severe exposure. The map is also reproduced on page 225 of the House Building Manual."


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## Shane007 (4 Mar 2014)

Guns N Roses said:


> FYI
> 
> Extract from HomeBond House Building Manual
> 
> ...


Thanks. I would have thought all houses have rendered or similar finishes. I don't know of any with just bare blocks as that would prove to be a very damp external wall. 
Waltite is also waterproof apparently.


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## Guns N Roses (4 Mar 2014)

Shane007 said:


> Thanks. I would have thought all houses have rendered or similar finishes. I don't know of any with just bare blocks as that would prove to be a very damp external wall.


 
There are a number of unrendered fairfaced block products on the market for example Forticrete. There quite common on public buildings but you do see them on dwellings. These kind of products rely on having a suitable cavity to prevent water from passing through to the interior wall construction. Unrendered fairfaced bricks also require a suitable cavity to prevent water ingress.


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## robflanagan (4 Mar 2014)

Just posted query on recommendations section Shane.


Thanks


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## Guns N Roses (4 Mar 2014)

Shane007 said:


> Waltite is also waterproof apparently.


 
According to it's BBA Cert, it will resist the transfer of precipitation to the inner leaf only when the product is properly installed in accordance with the certficate.


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## Shane007 (4 Mar 2014)

Guns N Roses said:


> According to it's BBA Cert, it will resist the transfer of precipitation to the inner leaf only when the product is properly installed in accordance with the certficate.



Yes but that is where you will want it stopped to. The only installers for the product are the ones approved by Waltite. I got hold of the installer's manual & they installed it as far as I can make out, exactly as described in the manufacturer's instructions.
I was very wary of spending that amount of money on this & being over 2 & 1/2 times more expensive than bonded bead. I researched as much as could but I could not find anybody albeit one who had it installed & their feedback was a noticeable huge difference. The BER guy I use, who is very technical, had his walls pumped with bonded bead & his wife did not notice any difference & he noticed a marginal difference. This was close to the feedback I was receiving across the board for bonded bead.
IMO, bonded bead cannot get into the areas that Waltite can, it cannot do air tightness, it cannot force the existing insulation back tight against the wall where it has come lose.
I am not in the insulation game whatsoever, but I am in the heating industry. I did, approx 4 years ago, completed the standard Domestic Insulation Installers Course, on,y for knowledge as I felt if I understood better how a house loses heat, I might understand better on how to replace that heat. I have never even rolled out a single roll of insulation except in my own house a couple of years ago.

Yesterday, my wife switched off the heating because she said the house was too warm!!! The house temperature dropped to 19.5C so the heating went back on today but for less time.


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## Rsa17 (4 Mar 2014)

Can it be used in a timber frame house


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## Shane007 (4 Mar 2014)

Yes. There is a detail in the installation manual, however, it would be best to speak to the installation company as they would advise more accurately & I presume they would have to do a suitability survey.


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## robflanagan (5 Mar 2014)

Shane

What's the size of your house roughly? Bungalow or two storey? Did the walltite installers bring scaffolding? Sorry for all the questions but just getting a rough idea of cost before sending out drawings.

Thanks 
Rob


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## Shane007 (5 Mar 2014)

3,000sqft two storey house.
They brought their own low towers & ladders. I have a 3 lift aluminium tower which they used but only because it was handy. I am sure they have all necessary equipment to carry out the works.
Cost was €25 + vat per m2 of wall area. They deducted windows & doors from the wall area. I have 3 double doors, front door with side glazing panels & a single door with side windows. I think my injected wall area was in the region of 210sqm.


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## robflanagan (8 Mar 2014)

I know that's more expensive than standard cavity fill with other materials but it seems to be very good value considering the end product. Thanks for the info Shane.


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## Shane007 (8 Mar 2014)

No worries. If you need anything else just let me know. 
Nearly 2 weeks after the install, I am still dumb-founded with the difference within the house. I don't know if it's down to the insulation properties or the air tightness or a mixture of the two (probably the latter). The bedrooms that were never above 17C are now a constant 21C. 
In my particular case, I am more than happy with the results.
I am just waiting for another particular technology that I installed last year to be listed on the HARP database which should be in the coming months & then I will get a BER done on my house. I am very optimistic about getting into the A's. Fingers crossed.


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## seantheman (9 Mar 2014)

Hi Shane, interesting stuff,i'm in the same situation myself 2000 built house, 100mm cavity,60mm thermal board insulation and am looking for a way of reducing my heating bills.Just wondered if you paid any particular attention to areas like the wallplate on last block? did they have a guy in the eves area checking while cavity was being pumped?


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## Shane007 (9 Mar 2014)

alser said:


> interesting stuff Shane, i was thinking about getting the cavities filled. This product does sound interesting. some concerns i would have is weight in the cavity, movement - does it move with the natural movement of the building i.e will it crack/start leaving gaps as its solid? chemical reaction with the existing wall insulation causing one of them to break up?



From what I am told by the manufacturer, the product was initially designed for commercial use for bonding two walls together & it was discovered to be very suitable for domestic cavities, both new & existing builds. 
It does not shrink at all compared to normal open cell PIR.
With regard to your existing insulation, it actually re-instates it back against the inner leaf. Mine had come away from the wall.


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## Shane007 (9 Mar 2014)

seantheman said:


> Hi Shane, interesting stuff,i'm in the same situation myself 2000 built house, 10mm cavity,60mm thermal board insulation and am looking for a way of reducing my heating bills.Just wondered if you paid any particular attention to areas like the wallplate on last block? did they have a guy in the eves area checking while cavity was being pumped?



Yes they checked the detail at my eaves area. It is best to speak to the installers themselves as it is not my area of expertise. I posted their details in the recommended trades section.


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## Supernova (10 Sep 2015)

Shane,
I'm  new to this site. I am in similar position to you. Found your info very helpful.


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## Supernova (10 Sep 2015)

I've  tried to find the recommended  section without success. ??? to get company name who installed your walltite.


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## Shane007 (11 Sep 2015)

If you wish to PM me, I can give you the company and contact details.

If Leo allows, I can post them here too.

To date, it was a terrific investment. I am using approx 1 fill of oil per year now, however, this is due to a combination of improvements I have made, such as Grant Vortex condensing boiler, excellent heating controls, no hot water demand from oil and of course the greatly improved insulation and air tightness qualities.


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## Leo (11 Sep 2015)

Feel free to post here Shane, your credentials are well established.


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## Shane007 (11 Sep 2015)

Thanks Leo.

Company I used is Ecotherm Insulation.
Contact there is TJ Byrne 0876666805

They are based in Meath but cover a large area.


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## Supernova (12 Sep 2015)

Shane007 said:


> Thanks Leo.
> 
> Company I used is Ecotherm Insulation.
> Contact there is TJ Byrne 0876666805
> ...


Thank you.


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## Inserteneo (10 Feb 2019)

Just wondering how is it now after a few years?

What BER did you eventually achieve?


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## LPFarmer (27 Nov 2019)

Hi Shane007
Im looking at using WALLTITE but know little about it and the info given here was great


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## Joe500 (29 Nov 2019)

New to this site today. Thanks Shane an all who contributed. 

My Story

I have a new 1.5 storey build, just recently started. I would like to use Waltite in the150mm cavity, since Insulation value is better than pumped beads, it seems.

I've seen a house with a 100mm cavity being pumped and it looks like amazing stuff. Injected through 12mm holes drilled in the mortar joints about 500mm apart ( the space of the holes is a guess from memory on my part).
It is sprayed in as a purple liquid and expands to,  perhaps, 20 times its original liquid volume over a period of perhaps 6 or 8 minutes.  I'm guessing the approx. expansion volume and time, based on  a sample provided to me. They sprayed a tiny volume into a plastic beaker to let me see the product). It expanded  steadily over time and overfilled the beaker until it  looked like a 99 Ice cream cone in the beaker.
It ends up as a rigid, light and physically strong material that would completely fill a cavity.  

My hesitation is based on the advice that it *MAY *cause the blockwork to crack, as it expands and generates forces in all directions.
The cracks MAY be small or large, I've been told.  No cracks have appeared sofar, in the new installation I visited. That was a week ago.

I raised this question with the company who were doing the job and the workman said "if you are worried about cracking, don't use it"
and turned away. He was not rude or dismissive but seemed to accept that it could happen, without saying so directly.
I had previously sought a quote from a different company. I started with a phone call and and they were enthusiastic to quote and requested my plans, to calculate the price. 
When sending the plans, I enquired   (a) if the had experienced wall cracking after use of the product and  
                                                            (b) if such cracking was covered by insurance. 
This company did not respond or provide a quote, so I'm kinda concerned now.

Anyone on here ever heard about the risk of Walltite  cracking block walls?


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## Nutso (29 Nov 2019)

We used Walltite in our new build 3 years ago.  Our blocklayer anchored the internal and external block walls together with wall ties - apparently this helps to prevent cracks.  They were aware of the insulation we were using.  I am not sure if this is done as standard on new builds - perhaps someone else can answer that question.  

However I can tell you that we are very happy with our end result.  The house achieved an A2 rating and the BER assessor said that he hadn't seen much like it in terms of airtightness.  The house heats easily and holds the heat very well.

I am not sure where you are based but if you would like to send me a PM, I can certainly recommend the company we used.  No affiliation apart from happy with the work they have done for us.


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## Joe500 (29 Nov 2019)

Thank you Nutso. That's very re assuring.
I'll send you a PM, when I figure out how to d it.


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## Jazz01 (29 Nov 2019)

Nutso said:


> if you would like to send me a PM



You can put the details on a post in reply to this thread, so others would be able to view it & possibly benefit if they are looking for such work.


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## Nutso (2 Dec 2019)

We used Warm n' Cosy Homes and dealt with Gerry.


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## Leo (2 Dec 2019)

Joe500 said:


> I'll send you a PM, when I figure out how to d it.



New users aren't allowed to send PMs, and note PG #14.


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## Joe500 (4 Dec 2019)

Leo Thank you for the info. and explanation. I don't know what PG#14 means.

Nutso, thank you for that contact. Greatly appreciated!


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## Jazz01 (4 Dec 2019)

Joe500 said:


> I don't know what PG#14 means



Rules & regulations here.


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## Joe500 (5 Dec 2019)

Thanks Jazz. I understand after reading see the rules etc. 

Still open to suggestions,  comments or recommendations on "Wallite"  or alternatives for a new build with 150mm cavity.
Thanks to all for previous experiences sofar.


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## Leo (5 Dec 2019)

Joe500 said:


> PG#14



Follow the link, it's Posting Guideline Number 14:



> *14 Please don't address specific queries directly to individual moderators or other contributors*
> Moderators and contributors give of their time freely and voluntarily so, in general, please post queries for general attention/discussion on the basis that somebody will respond rather than addressing them specifically to individual moderators or other contributors, particularly those who earn a living dispensing financial/tax advice on a professional basis. In any case, addressing specific queries to individual contributors rather than to the wider community in general may have the effect of limiting the number of useful responses that you receive rather than expediting things.


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