# Issues with block Insurance



## Petermack (7 Jul 2013)

I have an apartment in a complex made up of 4 blocks of 4 apartments. In my block the downstairs 2 apartments have been converted into a creche. We have always had problems with the owner of the creche not paying her annual charges and this has always led to the annual charges being raised so that the other owners have had to subsidise the creche owner.

Unfortunately it has now got to the stage that due to multiple apartment owners failing to pay their annual charges, the money is just not there to pay the block insurance. The management company called an extraordinary general meeting but the owners who have outstanding charges failed to turn up. Our insurance expires at the end of July.

Are there any avenues open to us as owners of the apartments to insure them as individual units ?


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## shesells (8 Jul 2013)

You can't insure what you don't own which makes insuring individual apartments next to impossible. Has your management company engaged debt collectors or solicitors to chase for unpaid fees?


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## Petermack (8 Jul 2013)

shesells said:


> You can't insure what you don't own which makes insuring individual apartments next to impossible. Has your management company engaged debt collectors or solicitors to chase for unpaid fees?



The management company has tried to locate 2 of the owners of apartments with outstanding fees but they have moved to Australia and have agents managing the apartments.

Another owner was brought to court but the judge sympathised with the apartment owner over their financial plight and ruled that whenever they have a little spare cash they should pay off their fees.

It leaves the rest of the owners in a situaton where we may have to pay the insurance ourselves but it really annoys us that the owners who contribute nothing still benefit,


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## lantus (9 Jul 2013)

Petermack said:


> I have an apartment in a complex made up of 4 blocks of 4 apartments. In my block the downstairs 2 apartments have been converted into a creche. We have always had problems with the owner of the creche not paying her annual charges and this has always led to the annual charges being raised so that the other owners have had to subsidise the creche owner.
> 
> Unfortunately it has now got to the stage that due to multiple apartment owners failing to pay their annual charges, the money is just not there to pay the block insurance. The management company called an extraordinary general meeting but the owners who have outstanding charges failed to turn up. Our insurance expires at the end of July.
> 
> Are there any avenues open to us as owners of the apartments to insure them as individual units ?


 
are the blocks communal entrance or duplex? Are there any services the company can revoke or remove? satellite dishes or aerials or water or power? Is the creche official and registered? If not revenue might be interested in them.

Not having addresses is a huge problem. Although i'm sympathetic in general if they are renting the propety i have less sympathy.

Its time to think harsh and the directors need to take a stern stance.

You cannot insure apartments as individuals, only the company can do it.


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## Petermack (9 Jul 2013)

lantus said:


> are the blocks communal entrance or duplex? Are there any services the company can revoke or remove? satellite dishes or aerials or water or power? Is the creche official and registered? If not revenue might be interested in them.
> 
> Not having addresses is a huge problem. Although i'm sympathetic in general if they are renting the propety i have less sympathy.
> 
> ...


 
Each apartment has its own entrance. The only services that can be revoked is refuse and this did happen by locking the bin stores. This just led to the apartment owners who did not keys leaving bags of rubbish outside the bin stores and eventually we had to remove the locks as the area just became an eyesore.


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## ontour (9 Jul 2013)

For the apartments where the owners have moved to Australia, can you be made an equitable receiver to take the rent until the arrears are paid.  A judge is likely to be a lot less sympathetic on an investment property.

It may be worth putting up some notices alerting residents that outstanding fees must be paid to ensure that the development is insured after June.  I am sure that parents of the creche would be concerned about their children being in an uninsured building.


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## lantus (9 Jul 2013)

Petermack said:


> Each apartment has its own entrance. The only services that can be revoked is refuse and this did happen by locking the bin stores. This just led to the apartment owners who did not keys leaving bags of rubbish outside the bin stores and eventually we had to remove the locks as the area just became an eyesore.


 
understandable.

If creche is a 'real' business take owner to court for debt recovery. Are the two apartments knocked through? Did the OMC give permission for this to happen? Was planning consent obtained? Are the correct fire safety measures in place? Can parking control measures be introduced...

Ask questions of the directors.

Be wary of divulging confidential financial information as you are not a director from what I can gather. Stating that certain people have not paid can lead you into deep water. Let the directors deal with that. Dont divulge that you know this as you could be fined or prosecuted if that property owner made a complaint against you. Depending on how you found this out other people or the OMC could also be fined. Dont give people ammo to fight back or allow you or your family to be hurt through misaction on your part.


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## Capricorn 1 (15 Jul 2013)

The banks with who the owners have their mortgages, will view the fact that the block will not be insured very seriously. 

Had a similar situation in an apartment block last year and lost a tenant because of it. Due to non-payment of management fees by a high proportion of owners, services were discontinued and we were told that there may be no money to pay the block insurance. We were advised that in this event, the fire officer would be asked to come in and close the block down. Thankfully, this situation was averted. 

In my mind, a very serious situation could have arisen there if the building was closed down and left uninsured. If the building was vandalised or set on fire, all owners would be liable for the cost of the clean-up operation etc.

At the time, proposals were put forward as to how to get these owners to pay their fees? One suggestion was that electronic zappers to gain entrance to the building would not be given to those who failed to pay. There was concern over this as legally, it seems you cannot refuse an owner from gaining access to their own property. Another suggestion was to inform the banks of those who did not pay of the potential situation, but it would not be possible to find out who the relevant banks were.

This year the same situation has arisen as the fees paid by the few who comply have run out. We have been told that the refuse collection is to stop. I’m really sick of it and hope I don’t lose another tenant over it. 

This situation is probably replicated in many apartment complexes around the country in the current economic climate.


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## Vanessa (21 Jul 2013)

Capricorn 1 said:


> The banks with who the owners have their mortgages, will view the fact that the block will not be insured very seriously.
> 
> Had a similar situation in an apartment block last year and lost a tenant because of it. Due to non-payment of management fees by a high proportion of owners, services were discontinued and we were told that there may be no money to pay the block insurance. We were advised that in this event, the fire officer would be asked to come in and close the block down. Thankfully, this situation was averted.
> 
> ...


 
I really don't accept this "current economic climate" as an excuse and am fed up of hearing apartment owners whinging "but we have to pay management fees" 
Well, I have to pay house  and contents insurance, refuse fees, pay someone to clean my gutters, clean my own windows and cut grass or pay someone to do it.
A lot of people in arrears of management fees have made absolutely no effort to pay, make no contact with management company to have an instalment arrangement and are generally given too much leeway in relation to payments. As long as compliant owners sit back and let the situation continue there will be non payers. A far more aggressive approach must be taken against these spongers


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## apartmento (30 Oct 2013)

*checking in*

I know this comment is from quite a while ago, but just wondering what the outcome was here? I just received a letter this morning from my management company to say that they are owed 57,000 and won't have cash to pay for block insurance in DEcember... really freaked me out. I am a little behind in my fees, but not a whole lot and obviously a load of people are way behind. very scary and frustrating.....




Petermack said:


> I have an apartment in a complex made up of 4 blocks of 4 apartments. In my block the downstairs 2 apartments have been converted into a creche. We have always had problems with the owner of the creche not paying her annual charges and this has always led to the annual charges being raised so that the other owners have had to subsidise the creche owner.
> 
> Unfortunately it has now got to the stage that due to multiple apartment owners failing to pay their annual charges, the money is just not there to pay the block insurance. The management company called an extraordinary general meeting but the owners who have outstanding charges failed to turn up. Our insurance expires at the end of July.
> 
> Are there any avenues open to us as owners of the apartments to insure them as individual units ?


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## hugoham (9 Jun 2014)

OP (or anyone who knows) I would be very interested to know if you found a resolution to the block insurance policy. I'm in a similar situation where our block policy has been cancelled due to non payment of management fees by a large number of owners.


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## lantus (9 Jun 2014)

Unit owners expect the company to operate as normal and just magic money out of thin air to provide wonderful services (all for free) but then seem confused (and angry) when things go wrong like the block policy being cancelled because there was no money.

 OMCs can cope with a small number of people not paying as it takes time to correct but if everyone is 'a bit late' or 'just misses a few years' the system collapses. The first people to get really upset are usually those who never paid in the first place. Its going to take a few bad cases of OMC failure to get the revisions needed to the MUD act to give companies much more powers to secure the money, either taken as part of the mortgage payment (at least the block insurance part.) or from the rent of tenants.

 It needs to be a quick and cheap process though as companies with money problems an ill afford solicitors and court.


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## Petermack (10 Jun 2014)

hugoham said:


> OP (or anyone who knows) I would be very interested to know if you found a resolution to the block insurance policy. I'm in a similar situation where our block policy has been cancelled due to non payment of management fees by a large number of owners.


 
 In the end the compliant owners had to stump up the shortfall in the insurance premium and its looking like we will have to do the same again this year. Its extremely frustrating and annoying even though each owner who owes money has had legal action taken against them, the judge has ruled that allowances must be made for people who genuinely cannot afford to pay.

 One owner who owns 2 apartments is paying €20 a month off his outstanding balance of €4,300.


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## hugoham (10 Jun 2014)

Thanks Guys.


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## lantus (11 Jun 2014)

its a tough situation but this judge has essentially forced this persons neighbours to pay a bill they are not legally required to pay. Presumably he also thinks that the insurer will just half the premium to meet the needs of these home owners or all other costs just drop by 500% as well?

 I wonder if a detailed income assessment was undertaken of if they just counted the tears from the owners cheek.

 Presumably there are two rent paying tenants in there? Is the mortgage being fully covered. Only the bank will know but I doubt it. There is a very skilled group of individuals who have made it their goal to avoid paying bills and they are very good at it. 

 I would remove every service I could from these units until the owner can pay.


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