# Summons for speeding ticket



## Gabriel (11 Jul 2007)

It never rains but it pours...

I received a summons to the district court last night in the post for a speeding offence on the M1 last October (2006). 

Speeding offence - that's fine. My first ever...happy to pay for it. Well not happy but prepared to pay for it!

The thing is this is the first I've ever heard about it. I never received anything prior to the summons. Am I right in saying that the court summons is related to non-payment of fixed charge fine within specified time period?

What are my chances of pleading this with the Gardai in question noted on the summons? I'd be happy to pay the fine now and not have to go to court.

[broken link removed]


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## tinkerbell (11 Jul 2007)

Yep you should have received the fixed charge (by ordinary post) - is the address correct on the summons and same as on driving licence?  You would have had up to 56 days to pay before it went out the payment period and into summons.  Payment cant be made at all now unfortunately.  Unless you had really good reasons to speed I doubt the Gardai will back off and you may have no choice but leave it to court and hope a kind judge will accept the lost in post theory but its been widely tried and not usually liable to receive the judge's sympathy I think!  Best of luck with it.


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## Gabriel (11 Jul 2007)

tinkerbell said:


> Yep you should have received the fixed charge (by ordinary post) - is the address correct on the summons and same as on driving licence?



No...my licence would have my old address but the address on the summons was obviously correct.



tinkerbell said:


> Payment cant be made at all now unfortunately.


Do you know is this the law?



tinkerbell said:


> Unless you had really good reasons to speed I doubt the Gardai will back off


I'm not expecting him to back off...merely let me pay the fine.




tinkerbell said:


> Best of luck with it.


Thanks...


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## Ballyman (11 Jul 2007)

This happened me as well two years ago.

I went into the court when I got the summons and spoke with the registrar or semobody in the public office and explained the case to him and he told me that I would have to turn up to court on the day of my summons and explain to the judge what the story was and it would then be up to the judge to decide what my fate was.

He did say that the chances of him changing anything would be slim though so I didn't bother wasting my time turning up on the day for some oaf to tell me he didn't believe me. 

I got a fine of €100 and 4 penalty points which I was notified of through the post. I threw the fine in the bin and I got another summons a few months later for non payment of the fine which I also threw in the bin. 

I haven't heard from them since (I have since moved house but that was 11 months after the court date)

So thats what I did. Unfortunately you are going to have to pay the fine and take the points, unless you spend €500+ on a solicitor to try and change it for you!!

Or throw the whole lot in the bin and forget about it.


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## Gabriel (11 Jul 2007)

Ballyman said:


> Or throw the whole lot in the bin and forget about it.



Thanks Ballyman - I'm not brave enough to do this 

The system seems dreadfully flawed when you can get dragged into court for not receiving one letter through the post!


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## Nige (11 Jul 2007)

Cases have been thrown out where the person charged with speeding swore that they never received the first notification.

http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/speeding-fines-are-struck-out-891957.html


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## tinkerbell (11 Jul 2007)

"No...my licence would have my old address but the address on the summons was obviously correct".  Now the problem is your notice obviously went to the old address and was returned to the fines dept. where it was updated and then the summons arrived at the new address I believe.   You really are supposed to have the up to date address on the licence so that won't help in court possibly.  And again sadly I know for fact that once the 56 days go by absolutely no payment can be made as the matter is out of the fines office hands and into the courts.  Depends on the judge - some can't be bothered but others can come down hard, especially as your licence wasn't in the correct new address.   But don't despair, many a case has been thrown out on the day so its all down to luck I'm afraid.


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## Gabriel (11 Jul 2007)

tinkerbell said:


> "No...my licence would have my old address but the address on the summons was obviously correct".  Now the problem is your notice obviously went to the old address and was returned to the fines dept. where it was updated and then the summons arrived at the new address I believe.   You really are supposed to have the up to date address on the licence so that won't help in court possibly.  And again sadly I know for fact that once the 56 days go by absolutely no payment can be made as the matter is out of the fines office hands and into the courts.  Depends on the judge - some can't be bothered but others can come down hard, especially as your licence wasn't in the correct new address.   But don't despair, many a case has been thrown out on the day so its all down to luck I'm afraid.



The fine never arrived at my old address either. My old address is my parents address and I regularly receive post from there. No fine though. 

At this point I'm actually verging on angry at having to attend court. It seems our court system works on the presumption of guilt. You probably received the fine and chose to ignore it so we're bringing you to court. How can anyone assume you ignore a fine without sending the original fine by registered post?

Thanks for all the responses so far. If anyone has further insights please reply. In the meantime I'm going to get onto the Fixed Charge Processing Office in Capel Street and the District Court Clerk. If I have no luck with either of them I'll be getting onto the Minister for Transport (Seamus Brennan?). I'm beginning to strongly dislike the farce that appears to be our legal system.


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## tinkerbell (11 Jul 2007)

I think the fact you can prove it never ever arrived at your parents address at all should help prove it did get lost in the post or the system!  Usually they are sent to old address at flats, etc. where maybe people never bothered or were able to forward them.  I'm going to pm you a few thoughts!


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## niceoneted (11 Jul 2007)

I'm sorry tinkerbell but the address on the licence is not the the one that is used. How do they know who's driving and thus who's licence to check- I am assuming it was a camera shot and that you were not actually stopped for the speeding? The address that would be used is the address to which the car is registered. Might you have changed your car shortly before the speeding date? 
It's worth giving the guard on the summons a ring and see what he/she has to say.


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## ajapale (11 Jul 2007)

Moved from Legal & Financial issues to  Car & motoring related issues


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## Gabriel (11 Jul 2007)

niceoneted said:


> I'm sorry tinkerbell but the address on the licence is not the the one that is used. How do they know who's driving and thus who's licence to check- I am assuming it was a camera shot and that you were not actually stopped for the speeding? The address that would be used is the address to which the car is registered. Might you have changed your car shortly before the speeding date?
> It's worth giving the guard on the summons a ring and see what he/she has to say.



I think you're right...it would have been sent to my new address alright. The thing is I do live in a high density apt and I do regularly enough receive neighbours post...so it's not exactly beyond the realms of possibility yadda yadda...

I changed to the car in question in September. I was travelling a lot on business last October and got caught coming back from the airport one night. It was me though alright...
Was not stopped and the picture is of the front of my car so must have been garda in a bush!

I will be ringing the guard tomorrow and also following up with Tinkerbell's idea that was pm'd. Thanks again for all the advice. Having never been brought to court for anything prior to this I was a little freaked at the thought last night. 
Bar bribing the judge on the day though I'll be doing everything in my power to escape without having to endure the full 4 penalty points.


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## RainyDay (11 Jul 2007)

Gabriel said:


> I'll be getting onto the Minister for Transport (Seamus Brennan?).


not any more


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## Gabriel (12 Jul 2007)

RainyDay said:


> not any more



Right...him so 

I contacted the Fixed Charge Processing Office this morning and pleaded my case. Nice Garda on the other end of the line...seemed very surprised that I hadn't received the fine...kept just saying..."well it was sent out last November"!! As if that makes any difference. Gave me the number for the court and spoke to a clerk there who said that I had no way of paying the fine now. Have to ring back two days before the case to see if the Garda has crossed the T's and it's actually going to go ahead. I tried to say that I didn't think that even the possibility was fair but hey...what's the point arguing with a clerk!

So I'm in two minds now...do I contact the Garda in question? He'll take one look at my BMW and probably think...that ****** I'm going to take him to court  So maybe I should just stay shtumm and hope that he doesn't turn up etc...

In the meantime I may write to the Minister anyway. It's farcical that our legal process seems to hinge on An Post (of all organisations) delivering post to people!!!


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## Caveat (12 Jul 2007)

Gabriel said:


> In the meantime I may write to the Minister anyway. It's farcical that our legal process seems to hinge on An Post (of all organisations) delivering post to people!!!


 
I had no idea this was the case. How can the onus be put on you to prove you didn't receive something?  You can't prove a negative. I can't believe letters like this aren't registered.  I have in the past received letters/documents that are much less important than this - and they were hand delivered/signed for via same day delivery (!)

Your situation is a complete joke - best of luck - and *definitely *complain!


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## Gabriel (12 Jul 2007)

Caveat said:


> I had no idea this was the case. How can the onus be put on you to prove you didn't receive something?  You can't prove a negative. I can't believe letters like this aren't registered.  I have in the past received letters/documents that are much less important than this - and they were hand delivered/signed for via same day delivery (!)
> 
> Your situation is a complete joke - best of luck - and *definitely *complain!



Thanks...I'm penning the letter as we speak!


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## Kendr (12 Jul 2007)

Eh, think you'll find the Minister for Justice is the man to write to on this one.

Not sure what the Dept of Transport has to do with gardai and courts?


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## Gabriel (12 Jul 2007)

Kendr said:


> Eh, think you'll find the Minister for Justice is the man to right to on this one.
> 
> Not sure what Dept of Transport has to do with gardai and courts?



Yes you're right....thought of that this morning. Have emailed info@justice.ie to ask if I can email the Minister directly.


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## Purple (12 Jul 2007)

I was stopped for driving through a red light at a pedestrian crossing (I was day-dreaming). It was a fair cop as they say.
I produced my driving licence the next day but didn't get the fine notification. After five weeks I rang the fixed fines office and they said they would resend it. A week later it hadn't arrived and I was away the following week. When I got back it was there and I sent off the cheque (for €120 for late payment) but it was sent back with a letter saying that they couldn't process it. I called the fixed fines office and was transferred to Harcourt street where they said a summons had been issued and I would have to turn up on the day but not to worry, my calls had been logged and do had my attempt to pay so the judge should just stick with the two penalty points and the €120.

My advice would be to go to court and tell the truth. It's better than having it hanging over you.


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## galwaytt (12 Jul 2007)

Caveat said:


> I had no idea this was the case. How can the onus be put on you to prove you didn't receive something? You can't prove a negative. I can't believe letters like this aren't registered. I have in the past received letters/documents that are much less important than this - and they were hand delivered/signed for via same day delivery (!)
> 
> Your situation is a complete joke - best of luck - and *definitely *complain!


 
Well, just to further pour water on your expectations, see this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,,2115130,00.html#article_continue

Note that the court held that by dint of using a vehicle, that you have acceeded to a lower 'quality of justice' by dint of defaulting you to guilty. Doesn't bold well for the camera contract out to tender here, btw........

My main gripe is with this part of the article: _The court also noted that anyone who chose to own or drive a car knew that they subjected themselves to a regulatory regime imposed because the possession and use of cars was recognised to have the potential to cause grave injury. _
_"Those who choose to keep and drive cars could be taken to have accepted certain responsibilities and obligations as part of the regulatory regime relating to motor vehicles, and in the legal framework of the United Kingdom those responsibilities included the obligation, in the event of suspected commission of road traffic offences, to inform the authorities of the identity. _

If cameras were invented first, and were in use before motor car use, they may have a point. How they could possibly make such a ruling given that cars pre-date camera's by 100 years is, quite simply, incomprehensible.........

Next time you're afforded the opportunity to vote yes/no on an EU subject, add the loss of this right as further reason to vote No.


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## Gabriel (12 Jul 2007)

Sorry...not being smart but I fail to see any comparison between that article and my case.

And that's British law.


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## galwaytt (12 Jul 2007)

my point is that if you were to say it was not you driving, you do not have the protection of silence as defence. This may be moot right now for you, but when private camera operator's start issuing tickets in a few month's time, you may find it of use then.

As for British law, well Irish law is predicated upon it, and, justices often take precedents from British Law when deciding Irish cases, especially in new avenues of challenge.


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## niceoneted (12 Jul 2007)

what speed were you caught doing and what was the limit in the area. this may have bearing as to whether you should contact the guard.


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## Gabriel (12 Jul 2007)

niceoneted said:


> what speed were you caught doing and what was the limit in the area. this may have bearing as to whether you should contact the guard.



Why? Because he might take a different view depending on the speed? He may also take the same view cos I drive a Bimmer and he hates all Bimmer drivers. Or he may just not care.
I was doing 88kph in a 60kph part of the M1. Far as I'm concerned that's immaterial. And it should be immaterial. The law is that I was caught and fined accordingly. That's the law. I just never got the opportunity to pay said fine. That's the only material part of my predicament. And as others have pointed out the onus is suddenly on me to prove I didn't receive the original fine in the post. 
But I take your point...it might affect how he feels about me ringing him. Truthfully I'm more tempted to leave it to court now. A friend of mine who's brother went through the same ordeal some months back sent his friend in his place who apologised to the judge for wasting the courts time after saying that he'd never received the original fine. This seemingly cheered the judge up no end and he cancelled the fine. But then I still don't like the idea of having to go to court. 

And let me reiterate - I am not contesting the speeding offense. 

Btw...for anyone thinking it...please don't turn this thread into a wagging finger. There's plenty of decent speed limits out there and plenty of poor ones. Not saying this particular area of the M1 is either good or bad btw...


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## Kendr (12 Jul 2007)

Jeez, take it easy. The question on the speed being travelled at is a resonable one. Excessive speed - say doing 120kph in a 60kph would lead to a court summons and not an on the spot fine. But as you say, this is not relevant to your case.

You drive a BMW and you think the guard will have some opinion on this? I drive a BMW and to be frank, that sounds a bit daft. Big deal, they're 10 a penny. 

Just go to court and argue your case. Maybe draft in a solicitor?


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## Gabriel (12 Jul 2007)

Kendr said:


> Jeez, take it easy. The question on the speed being travelled at is a resonable one.



Apologies...my response wasn't meant to be confrontational. I take the point.



Kendr said:


> You drive a BMW and you think the guard will have some opinion on this? I drive a BMW and to be frank, that sounds a bit daft. Big deal, they're 10 a penny.


Absolutely...but enough people don't think so. People who drive beamers have a reputation...the fact that it might not be true has nothing to do with it.



Kendr said:


> Just go to court and argue your case. Maybe draft in a solicitor?



At this stage...and after digesting it and realizing it aint as big a deal as I originally thought....I probably will just go to court and plead. I will not draft in a solicitor. Why should I pay someone to defend me? That's my whole problem...that's why I posted the thread. A lot of people might think it trivial and my response perhaps doesn't match the severity. But I am annoyed at having to go to court because an post didn't deliver a letter to me. That's essentially what this is about. And the result (if I'm unsuccessful...if the judge isn't in the mood that day etc) will be 4 penalty points. Some fantastic legal system we have.

Sorry...I'm ranting again


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## Kendr (12 Jul 2007)

Well, on this I'm not 100% certain.  But, you attract 4 penalty points if you challenge the alleged offence and fail.  You do this on the fixed notice that arrives to your house.  The driver is asked if they accept what is stated in the fixed penalty notice - or wish to challenge.  You tick box to challenge it and send it back, or you pay the fine.  As you haven't got the notice you are not challenging.

Aren't you being summonsed for failing to pay a fine?


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## bond-007 (12 Jul 2007)

I am waiting for a full consitutional challenge to happen. The Gardai seem to drop the charges if someone starts a serious challenge to the legislation.


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## Gabriel (12 Jul 2007)

Kendr said:


> Well, on this I'm not 100% certain.  But, you attract 4 penalty points if you challenge the alleged offence and fail.  You do this on the fixed notice that arrives to your house.  The driver is asked if they accept what is stated in the fixed penalty notice - or wish to challenge.  You tick box to challenge it and send it back, or you pay the fine.  As you haven't got the notice you are not challenging.
> 
> Aren't you being summonsed for failing to pay a fine?



Yes...I am. But according to this...

[broken link removed]

*"If you have been caught speeding on police traffic camera, you will receive notice of your fine and penalty points of the offence by post. You have 28 days in which to pay your fine from the date the notice issues to you to pay your fine.

If you fail to pay your fine, the fine then increases to 120 euro, which you must pay within 28 days. If after this time, you still have not paid your fine, you will have to go to a District Court. If you are convicted in court of speeding offences and non-payment of fines, you will automatically receive 4 penalty points and a fine to a maximum of 800 euro."*

So the judge already has me for the speeding. He decides I'm not telling the truth and it's 4 points.


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## nt00deep (16 Jul 2007)

I honestly don't see you coming out of this with +4 points.

Fixed penalty notices are now (as of at least 12 months ago) being registered to avoid the embarrassment that arose heretofore when defendants indicated they had never received them.  The fact that they are registering them is acceptance that not doing so was a failing on their part.

If you go to court and state you have not received it, the gardai will be asked to prove you did (now that they are supposed to be registering them, that should have been easy).

I expect you will come out of this with charge dropped, or (worst case) with an opportunity to pay the original fine and accept the 2 points.


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## Gabriel (16 Jul 2007)

nt00deep said:


> I honestly don't see you coming out of this with +4 points.
> 
> Fixed penalty notices are now (as of at least 12 months ago) being registered to avoid the embarrassment that arose heretofore when defendants indicated they had never received them.  The fact that they are registering them is acceptance that not doing so was a failing on their part.
> 
> ...



Cheers for the info nt00deep. I didn't realise the gardai were then asked to prove I'd been sent the fine. That's good to know.

Still don't want to go to court mind you. I'm pursuing this at present...let you know how I get on when I know what's what.


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## tinkerbell (16 Jul 2007)

Are you sure fixed notices are being registered now?   I know they were about 5 years back cos I got one myself by registered post.   But up to a very short time ago they were sent ordinary mail. Also the garda in question has nothing to do with actually issuing the fine so I doubt he can be asked to prove you got it!  He just supplies them with the footage he took and has nothing to do with it until he himself if summonsed to appear in court to back it up.  I would love to see a return to registering them believe me!


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## Trish2006 (17 Jul 2007)

We received two parking fines in the last couple of months and neither were registered post.  The second one I contested because I was in a clearway as a result of waiting for the AA and when I told the guard he said he'd already written the ticket but to write to the superintendent when I got it and explain and that he'd mention it too and it would be sorted.  I wrote my letter and got a reply saying they're looking into it.  Nothing since in the last few weeks, but I've kept copies of my letter and the letter I received as well as the original fine so I'm assuming I'm covered.
But the fines definitely were NOT registered!


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## simplyjoe (17 Jul 2007)

Sorry mate no sympathy here. Speeding kills innocent people. Take your punishment. If it was my choice you licence would be removed after 2nd offence.  This is the usual story in Ireland. Break a law, get caught and then divert attention to something else. Simple fact is that most road fatalities are down to speeding yet the punishment given is little more than a slap on the hand. The drink driving laws are correct but the government are using them to divert attention from speeding which is the main killer. Speak to the mothers, fathers and children of people killed on the roads and then decide if a little 'finger wagging' is appropriate or not.


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## Gabriel (17 Jul 2007)

simplyjoe said:


> Sorry mate no sympathy here. Speeding kills innocent people. Take your punishment.



Thanks for *not* reading any of the last two pages Joe.


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## Caveat (17 Jul 2007)

simplyjoe said:


> Sorry mate no sympathy here. Speeding kills innocent people. Take your punishment. If it was my choice you licence would be removed after 2nd offence. This is the usual story in Ireland. Break a law, get caught and then divert attention to something else. Simple fact is that most road fatalities are down to speeding yet the punishment given is little more than a slap on the hand. The drink driving laws are correct but the government are using them to divert attention from speeding which is the main killer. Speak to the mothers, fathers and children of people killed on the roads and then decide if a little 'finger wagging' is appropriate or not.


 
As far as I can see the poster is not disputing the fact that he was speeding - or even complaining about his fine. His complaint, which I believe is justified, is that he was not given an opportunity to pay the initial fine and as a consequence may face a court appearance.


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## simplyjoe (17 Jul 2007)

Gabriel said:


> Thanks for *not* reading any of the last two pages Joe.


 
I am sorry. Your reaction to the inconvenience of receiving a speeding fine (raining and pouring!) when you were nearly 50% over the speed limit says it all. Perhaps you should spend less time wondering how you can avoid having to pay this 'unjust' penalty and more on the potential consequences of your  actions that gave rise to the 'unjust' portion of the penalty.


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## aircobra19 (17 Jul 2007)

simplyjoe said:


> ...speeding which is the main killer...



Can you post a link to the stats which demonstrate this?


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## simplyjoe (17 Jul 2007)

[broken link removed]


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## Gabriel (17 Jul 2007)

simplyjoe said:


> I am sorry. Your reaction to the inconvenience of receiving a speeding fine



But then I never received a speeding fine...


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## aircobra19 (17 Jul 2007)

simplyjoe said:


> [broken link removed]






> The majority of road crashes are caused by human error. In fact driver                error accounts for over 80% of all fatal and injury crashes.





> *Excessive or inappropriate speeding is the cause of                  a quarter of all fatal crashes each year*
> *Drink driving is a factor in over one third of all fatal                  crashes in Ireland*
> *Without a seat belt three out of four people will be                  killed or seriously injured in a head on crash*





> ...
> *Speed is the single largest factor contributing to road                  deaths in Ireland.*
> *Over 40% of fatal accidents are caused by excessive                  or inappropriate speed.*


Maybe I am reading that wrong but is 40% or a quarter (25%) of all fatal accidents caused by speeding? Is 80% driver error not largest factor?  Inappropriate speed is not speeding, is it? As you can be under the speed limit and still be at an inappropriate speed?



> Speed is at the core of the road safety problem because higher speed                reduces the time available to avoid collision and makes the impact in                a collision more severe.


How then are the roads with the highest average speeds, motorways the safest? I'm not avocating speeding but those stats (where are they from?) aren't clear. For example are the roads with the highest conviction rates for speeding the raods with the most fatalities?


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## CCOVICH (17 Jul 2007)

Folks-the question relates to the technicalities of receiving a speeding ticket/fine.  Much of what has been said in the last page would be better discussed in Letting Off Steam-indeed it has been discussed there several times before.


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## CCOVICH (17 Jul 2007)

My request was ignored so I am locking the thread (several posts have been unapproved).  Feel free to carry on a debate on road deaths in Letting Off Steam.


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