# Sewage problem in estate



## LittlePiggy (28 Apr 2010)

Hello,

I am looking for a couple of tips on dealing with a problem in our housing estate. I imagine we are not alone in this battle going by what happens in this country, and I am not sure if thats a comfort or not.

Firstly, some background. Our housing estate in Cavan is around 3 years completely finished now. Cavan council only gave planning permission for estates with a management company, and we were aware of this when we signed. The builders have been trying to pass the management company and directorship to the residents. It has taken some time to deal with this, its a new system that nobody truly understands, but we have a residents committee and it has been charging a small sum to get the grass cut and pay our liability insurance. The directorship of the estate has NOT been passed to the residents though, as the builders are trying to also pass over some fairly large debts for things they should not be. So we are in a dispute with them.

Now this could have gone on a while as we sort it out, but now we have a problem. The sewage pump in our estate, which pumps sewage up the hill into the town pumping station, has failed. The shores are full of the nasty stuff, and we are suffering. The builder doesn't want to know (he reckons the residents have taken over). The council doesn't want to know (they haven't taken charge yet). Most of the estate doesn't want to know (we are at the back of the estate on the bottom of the hill, so gravity is ensuring that only a small row of us are affected).

Its been going on a week, and its horrible but we seem to have no friends anywhere. The residents committee are apparently trying to "sort it" but with respect to them and their efforts, its not being sorted quickly enough. 

I am fairly distraught by all this and would like to get an idea of what  to do next. Has anyone been in a similar situation, and how did it work out? Does anyone else have any clever ideas?

Thanks in advance


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## GarBow (28 Apr 2010)

We have had the exact same problem.

First of all, don't let the council get away with fobbing you off. They gave permission for the installation of the pump and should take some responsibility in enforcing the developer to have it sorted. They did with us (for an 11 year old development).

Secondly, Contact your local HSE Environmental Health Officer. They are one body that will take an interest in this matter.

Was there a maintenace contract put in place by the MC? There should be at least annual inspection and servicing of the pupms. This is something that should be allowed for in your anual fees.

Others will be able to give you more information with regard to the MC set up situation.


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## mathepac (28 Apr 2010)

LittlePiggy said:


> ...  but we have a residents committee and it has been charging a small sum to get the grass cut and pay our liability insurance. ...


I'm sorry to hear about yet another catastrophe where innocent home owners are left to struggle through the complexities of the time-bombs created by greedy developers and inept public servants.

I echo the recommendations above about the raw sewage in your drains, but I have some other concerns.

Arguably this "residents committee" has no legal basis for levying fees, taking on work, engaging contractors or insuring public areas (they can have no insurable interest in these areas as they are vested either in the management company, the council or the developer) that I can see and personally I would be circumspect about engaging with them or volunteering money or time.

If the estate has been taken in charge, the work is the council's or the management company's; if it hasn't, responsibility falls back on the developer. By interposing this "residents committee" between legally constituted organisations with responsibilities, arguably you are letting the other entities off the hook and possibly creating a rod which may be used to beat your own backs. I think you need legal advice.

The developer should have posted a "completion bond" with the council, what is the status of this?


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## LittlePiggy (28 Apr 2010)

Thanks for the responses so far. Good to know we have a bit of support!

GarBow - I will definitely follow up your advice. Thanks.

mathepac - 

_"Arguably this "residents committee" has no legal basis for levying fees,  taking on work, engaging contractors or insuring public areas"_

The residents committee was assembled as the builders were pushing to pass over responsibility of the management company to the residents. They were about to appoint an official management agent to look after the estate as we weren't interested, and personally, I wish thats what was done. But they were asking 400 a year off each house with the breakdown of costs being RIDICULOUSLY high. The residents committee was assembled (voted in by the estate, I am keen to stress they haven't done anything off their own back) and managed to do the grass cutting and Public Liability Insurance for a fraction of the cost. Everyone seemed pleased with this as it appears to cover our insurance costs and we got the estate looking good. Happy days. The theory is/was that the council are obliged to cover everything else (roads, pavements, electric, sewage), once they take in charge.

One of the other reasons the management agent costs were so high was they had included some large bills and costs which were outstanding from the builders, which the residents association have been trying to get the builders to pay as we should not cover them. In theory, once that dispute is resolved, we can go to the council and push them to take over the rest of the estate.

I think that your point:

"_By interposing this "residents committee" between legally constituted  organisations with responsibilities, arguably you are letting the other  entities off the hook and possibly creating a rod which may be used to  beat your own backs._"

is absolutely 100% correct. I know we have just tried to do the right thing, but its not worked out for the best. Its worth mentioning that regarding the sewage pump itself, nobody had a CLUE it was meant to be maintained or that it was even there. Its not been mentioned in any previous management fee breakdown from when the builders were in charge as far as I remember, but I will check.

"_The developer should have posted a "completion bond" with the council,  what is the status of this? _	"

Don't know the answer to that. Do you have any suggestions how I could find out?

Thanks again for the replies. This is just the best website in the world!


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## LittlePiggy (13 May 2010)

*Update*

An update for anyone interested.

The council are going to fix our problem this time, which is good. However, they told  us if it happens again, we are on our own. They will also report us to  Environmental Health who may well sue us for pollution.

We tried to find out why the council cannot simply take over the estate  since it is finished, as it turns out that they returned the bond to the  builders. They have simply replied that  they have no intention of taking over any estates due to a lack of money.  This is despite the planning permission and contracts agreeing that it has to happen.

Our builder has since gone into liquidation and into hiding, we are on  our own. Legally and contractually this should have nothing to do with us, but it  seems that now it is very much our problem.

The builder never once serviced the sewage pumps in the 4 years or so  since they have been in place and they are supposed to be done fairly  frequently. The reason they broke was simply down to neglect.  If  anything, this confirms the suspicion that the builder had absolutely no  intention of supporting the estate and in all likelihood never expected  it to work long term. I imagine at the time of planning, he was  probably hoping to run away and leave the problem with the council. As  it turns out, it is us.

Every passing day is another vicious demonstration of the heartless and sometimes spiteful destruction of this country. The real victims of the implosion are ordinary people who  did nothing wrong except believe what they were told. Now that those who could and should help have closed their doors, we have nowhere to turn to anymore.

Depressing.


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## round1 (13 May 2010)

You should contact and set up a meeting with your local councillors and TDs to get some pressure put on the council. Remember these guys will always be looking for your vote!


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## Complainer (13 May 2010)

LittlePiggy said:


> Our housing estate in Cavan is around 3 years completely finished now. Cavan council only gave planning permission for estates with a management company, and we were aware of this when we signed.






LittlePiggy said:


> They have simply replied that  they have no intention of taking over any estates due to a lack of money.  This is despite the planning permission and contracts agreeing that it has to happen.



I'm a bit confused by the apparent conflict between these two quote. Initially, you say that you knew the estate was to be managed by a management company, and then you say that the PP says that the estate will be taken in charge. Which is it?



mathepac said:


> I'm sorry to hear about yet another catastrophe where innocent home owners are left to struggle through the complexities of the time-bombs created by greedy developers and inept public servants.


What ineptitude are you referring to here?


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## babaduck (13 May 2010)

If one of the conditions of planning was that a Management Company was to be established, then the local authority will NEVER take it in charge, as the MC is legally responsible for the running of the estate, including sewage, common area public lighting, public insurance and common area grounds maintenance.  

I worked for many years for a developer and we had estates in various counties in the East Coast region - 99.9% of which had the MC clause in the planning.  Only one of our developments didn't (a slip up by the Co. Co.) and we had to fight for 3 years to get them to take the estate in charge.  I had to actually threaten them with legal action to get them to do it - and by god they took their sweet time over it.  They even let the ESB lapse, which plunged the estate into darkness and knackered the sewage pump.  Oh, the sweet memories of it all!!!


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## LittlePiggy (13 May 2010)

The management company is responsible for the maintenance of the common areas and the public liability insurance. The builder and then the council (when they take over) cover the roads, lighting and sewage. It has been confirmed that this was the contractual agreement by Cavan Council. I believe it can vary by council, and this is the arrangement here.

We always knew the management company would be around forever and we would always have to pay for the common areas and insurance. We were NEVER meant to deal with the infrastructure maintenance, but the council and builder have walked away from their obligations and left us literally in the poop. I hope that clarifies!


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