# Crackdown on Prov License Drivers - Will it stick?



## Sn@kebite

Is this a new safety measure or just another revenue opportunity?
Or will it die out like it had for a while.

Can I learn in another country?
Anywhere I can get more info on these new activities and the new learner document?
Usless tv3 news don't explain anything.


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## dereko1969

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=9894&lang=ENG&loc=2126

http://www.rsa.ie/NEWS/upload/File/...nd Changes to the Driver Licensing System.doc


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## briancbyrne

may not be answering your questions Snakebite but on the issue Ive just spent 2 hours driving home from work via the M50 on a provisional licence without a fully licenced driver beside me and spent the time tuning in and out of current affairs programs and to say I'm quietly fuming at the developments is an understatement.
I'm sure there are tens of thousands of people in the same boat as myself driving on a provisional to and from work (without choice), needing my car for work, who if banned due to this illogical process faces losing thier job and therefore not being able to make mortgage payments and therefore losing thier home.
Now I know there are some there who will likely quip that I should have a full licence but to listen to the sanctimonious figure head that is Gay Byrne prattle on with his "holier than thou" rhetoric about measures which are unenforceable, illogical and downright insulting has angered me, especially given the fact that the man drives daily and has never sat a driving test - but thats another issue.
Enough is enough - I've drafted a letter to the local TD's to question thier stance on the measures - its time that those in authority realise how these "sound bites" effect the everyday hard working, law abiding tax paying public. - I'm sure everybody who views this site has somebody related to them adversly affected by this nonsence - I'm wondering if people are happy to accept these changes with the usuall Irish responce of an initial outburst of  disbelief shortly followed by  a shirk of the shoulders as its forgotten about?


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## Erasure

Brianc - have you taken your driving test yet?


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## truthseeker

briancbyrne said:


> I'm sure there are tens of thousands of people in the same boat as myself driving on a provisional to and from work (without choice), needing my car for work, who if banned due to this illogical process faces losing thier job and therefore not being able to make mortgage payments and therefore losing thier home.



Why are you 'without choice'? 
Can you not take your driving test? Or use public transport?


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## square1

I think these are valid points - and agree that learner driver shouldn't be driving around on their own (I am one so I can say that!) but this is only enforceable IF YOU CAN GET A DRIVING TEST DATE. I would be a qualified driver 100 times over if i could just start taking the test. In Australia -I had a learner licence, you could do the test today - fail it and take it again tomorrow - you just had to drive on the learner licence for six months first, this is why I didn't take my test there.  Meaning you could keep at it till you pass. I have failed my test - reapplied the next day and waited months and month for another test (still waiting by the way).

Snakebite you can learn to drive in another country - get your licence and convert it over here. Not every country though - check the Dept. of Env website to find out which ones.


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## briancbyrne

Sammie110 said:


> Brianc - have you taken your driving test yet?



yes I have - waiting, and waiting, and waiting on a resit


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## briancbyrne

truthseeker said:


> Why are you 'without choice'?
> Can you not take your driving test? Or use public transport?



driving without choice - I need it for my job

Public transport - in this country?? - its a joke - I worked it out - If I were to take public transport to work it would take me approx 7 hrs round trip a day... If there was an efficient public transport system in this country then thse measures might seem more realistic but if there is *no choice* but to drive......


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## truthseeker

briancbyrne - I assume you mean you need to drive to get to work (judging by what you say about public transport).

Theres always a bicycle. 

Thouands of workers get to work everyday in ways other than driving themselves.

There is always a choice, but you may not like the alternatives, such as public transport or via bicycle. You could always get a job thats easier to get to? 

When is your next driving test date?


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## z103

The government have probably realised how much money other countries make out of speed cameras (like the UK) and want to cash in. They have to make up the taxes somehow, and what better method than an extra tax on commuters. I wonder what the fine for L drivers, driving unaccompanied will be?

They make out they're doing something about road deaths, while cashing in. A win-win situation for the government.

I'd like to see them addressing the issues that cause the accidents in the first place. How about;

- Proper, subsidised rail links to give people a choice of method of travel.
- Investigate causes of crashes, and see what's significant.

No money to be made in those suggestions though!



> I'm wondering if people are happy to accept these changes with the usuall Irish responce of an initial outburst of disbelief shortly followed by a shirk of the shoulders as its forgotten about?


This is what I believe will happen too.


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## webtax

leghorn said:


> I'd like to see them addressing the issues that cause the accidents in the first place.


they are addressing the issues and these measures bring us (belatedly) towards best international practice:
-young drivers on provisional licences are a major cause of accidents
-speed cameras reduce speeding and if you break the limit why shouldn't you pay the fine?
-reducing the drink driving limit also saves lives   



briancbyrne said:


> yes I have - waiting, and waiting, and waiting on a resit


the situation where you can fail a test (i.e. are unfit to drive) and can get into a car and drive off badly needed to be addressed. the new private testing centres will have reduced the waiting lists by the time the legislation comes into force.


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## truthseeker

webtax said:


> the new private testing centres will have reduced the waiting lists by the time the legislation comes into force.



Actually they have already reduced waiting time considerably - mr. truthseeker only started driving in april and is now a fully licensed driver, having taken two tests since april this year. The second one was one of the private testing centres.


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## bubbasmama

But not everywhere in the country has benefited from the waiting times being reduced.
There are still areas with 35 weeks waiting times.


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## contemporary

our average waiting time per region is:

· North Leinster........ 28 weeks
· South Leinster...... . 22 weeks
· West...................34 weeks
· North West........... 13 weeks
· South East.............23 weeks
· South West............28 weeks

from the rsa, this wont be enforced til these are at 10 weeks imho


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## Sn@kebite

dereko1969 said:


> http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=9894&lang=ENG&loc=2126
> 
> http://www.rsa.ie/NEWS/upload/File/...nd Changes to the Driver Licensing System.doc


Thanks!



webtax said:


> the new private testing centres will have reduced the waiting lists by the time the legislation comes into force.


You meanby next Tueday 30th?

I would assume that most of the people in Ireland who support Gaybo are people with Full Licenses?


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## z103

> -young drivers on provisional licences are a major cause of accidents



Okay, so we'll just take these people off the roads then, shall we? They can walk to work. Problem solved 



> -speed cameras reduce speeding and if you break the limit why shouldn't you pay the fine?


Do they really reduce speeding? I don't think they do. Why hasn't speeding been eliminated in the UK with all the cameras they have?

In the UK, in 2004, £112million was generated from speed cameras.
[broken link removed]

This is certainly a step back.



> A council has slashed its funding for speed cameras after claiming they had become more about making money than saving lives.


*Source: http://tinyurl.com/2vxznv*


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## Red2

Who is going to give up two years of their lives to be available 24 hours a day to accompany learner drivers? Take, for example,the parent who has to leave for work at 7.30am.Son,or daughter or even partner, has to be at work at 10 in a different direction,not served by public transport,20 miles away.The waiting time for test is 9 months.Who gives up their job to be available to accompany?And what happens if theres more than one learner driver in the family?Or the learner doesn't have someone,family or other, who can accompany them? Are some people destined to never be allowed to drive in this country?
Perhaps it would have been better to raise the age to learn to 30 so that the eejits who,they say,create the carnage might have gotten sense by then and we would all be safer,instead of crucifying careful learners who don't cause accidents


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## Sn@kebite

webtax said:


> they are addressing the issues and these measures bring us (belatedly) towards best international practice:
> -young drivers on provisional licences are a major cause of accidents
> -reducing the drink driving limit also saves lives


Hogwash! - Young drivers will not be driving with their parents because of social stigma, they will be driving with their fully licensed mates. (Who are free because they are on the dole)
-*Increasing* the alcohol price will stop people being able to buy as much. - But i guess the alcohol companies are those "Big Corporations" which are too powerful and have a firm grip of our government.


Red2 said:


> Perhaps it would have been better to raise the age to learn to 30 so that the eejits who,they say,create the carnage might have gotten sense by then and we would all be safer,instead of crucifying careful learners who don't cause accidents


But the idea is to keep the max amount of cars on the road to maximise revenue. So they will never raise the legal learnng age. (Also: less cars means clear roads, i.e no reason to speed.)

*I Think a lot of people will be "signing on" in the near future because of job loss as a result of Gay's ignorance imo*.


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## webtax

leghorn said:


> Okay, so we'll just take these people off the roads then, shall we? They can walk to work. Problem solved



or they could get lessons and pass the test. again, the reason people don't pass is because they are not deemed proficient at driving safely. why do they think they should have freedom to drive without a qualified driver? it doesn't happen in other countries.



leghorn said:


> Do they really reduce speeding? I don't think they do. Why hasn't speeding been eliminated in the UK with all the cameras they have?


cameras used properly at accident blackspots would reduce speeding & save lives


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## redchariot

This is a great day for Irish motoring. It is about time the whole drving alone with a provisonal licence was clamped down. One of the stupidest things that I ever heard of, is the 2nd provisional licence rule where you can drive alone.

In practically every other country in Europe and probably the world, this practice would be totally unacceptable. In the North, you wouldn't even consider for half a second driving on your own. It is clamped down on heavily and ingrained in their culture; when I mention to anybody up there, the way it is down here, they are absolutely horrified.

Those people who compain that it has been going on for years seem to forget that they were breaking the law (except if on 2nd provisional licence); it just wasn't enforced. 

Bring it on, get the Gardai out there and start putting a stop to this nonsenical practice right away.


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## z103

> cameras used properly at accident blackspots would reduce speeding & save lives



cameras used properly, on such places as the M50, would increase revenue.


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## Sn@kebite

redchariot said:


> This is a great day for Irish motoring. It is about time the whole drving alone with a provisonal licence was clamped down. One of the stupidest things that I ever heard of, is the 2nd provisional licence rule where you can drive alone.
> 
> In practically every other country in Europe and probably the world, this practice would be totally unacepptable. In the North, you wouldn't even consider for half a second driving on your own. It is clamped down on heavily and ingrained in their culture; when I mention to anybody up there, the way it is down here, they are absolutely horrified.
> 
> Those people who compain that it has been going on for years seem to forget that they were breaking the law (except if on 2nd provisional licence); it just wan't enforced.
> 
> Bring it on, get the Gardai out there and start putting a stop to this nonsenical practice right away.


Very naive post altogether.


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## square1

Just as a matter of interest - are there any statistics to prove the high number of road deaths have any link whatsoever to provisional license holders? 
I have to say I am nervous about this crack down - as a driver on a provisional license -  but anyone who thinks they have a 'right' to drive on a provisional license has a basic lack of understanding of how licencing works. You are provided with a prov lic to learn to drive. No one is supposed to spend years doing so. Ideally you learn to drive - do your test - sorted. The inherent issue is that getting a test is not a simple soloution - I looked up the waiting time in my local test center - 25 weeks. Thats almost half a year. This clamp down will only be practical when everyone has a decent chance at passing the test in a reasonable time. Then it can be said that it is the responsibility of the learner drive to comply with the law. However if you need to able to drive on a daily basis it is not acceptable to have to wait months for a test date. 
Also I heard on the radio - don't know how true it is - that learner drivers will not be allowed to drive anything larger than a 1L engine. That is going to mean the car dealers have a field day - having asked around the learner drivers I know none of us have a 1L - albeit mine is only a 1.1!


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## Brendan Burgess

Someone said: 


> -young drivers on provisional licences are a major cause of accidents



This quote shows how confused the thinking is. I would second Square's question? Is there any evidence that people driving on provisional licenses cause more accidents?

We know that young people cause more accidents. But do young people on provisional licenses cause more accidents than young people with full driving licenses? I doubt it, but I am open to being shown the statistics on this. 

I would guess that older drivers on provisional licenses have fewer accidents than young drivers on full licenses. 

Possession of a full license doesn't stop people speeding and drinking and crashing lights and chatting on their phones while driving. 

Why not give everyone to be given a license automatically? Redeploy all the testers onto the roads to  monitor our driving. Ban drivers for 6 months after 3 penalty points. Ban them for 5 years for a further 3 points. 

Brendan


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## redchariot

Sn@kebite said:


> Very naive post altogether.



I think not. We are the laughing stock of Europe the way our system is set up. It is about time we get our act together and get it right.

Do you seriously think that a system which allows a person, who is untested or who has failed a driving test, to drive on their own is suitable? It is an absolute disgrace in my opinion.

I know there are plenty of good experienced provisonal licence drivers out there, but there is no distinction between the good and bad. At least when you have passed the test you have shown a certain level of comeptency to drive.


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## sam h

I have to say I do think there are few sides to the arguement here:
 - It is ridiculous that someone who fails a test (regardless of how badly they drove or how dangerous they were on the road) can finish their test and get back into their car and drive home.  AND continue to drive their car until they can get a re-test (or choose to re-apply which I understand they can wait a year and then have their "up to" 35 week wait).
 - Having to wait 10 to 35 weeks for a re-test is madness, especially is someone fails on a minor point - they should have a way to slot these drivers in within 2 weeks once they have had a chance to improve on their problem areas
 - Not impressed with the suggestions of repeating the test the "next day" as some posters seem to advocate...if a driver fails for some serious errors, they should have to wait a suitable period of time (such as 3 months for a serious failure) and prove they have done lessons to assist them in improving their driving.
 - Another contributory factor is that so many younger drivers are buying their own cars rather than driving their parents....who wants mum or dad in the passenger seat of "their" car.  There was no way my parents would let me drive alone until I had my licence....obviously their cars I was driving!
 - The biggest problem is that in Ireland we have various "rules" that generally aren't enforced (such as driving with a fully licenced driver when on provisional) so many people ignore them and get incensed when they are actually enforced.  For example; loads of people donlt know how to drive on motorways....my OH saw a family having a picnic on the hard shoulder one day....in any other EU country the cops would be there in minutes!
 - Public transport - need I say more, generally a shambles!

So overall, I can understand why provisional drivers feel they have no choice but to drive alone at times but IMHO I don't think they should as it can put themselves & others at risk.


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## paddyc

I'm a provisional driver waiting on a retest since April, was supposed to have been March but was postponed by a few weeks, sent me some stupid letter with no real reason(and todays figures from [broken link removed]) there is a 43 week waiting list with a 51.1% pass rate. Reason I failed my first test was "I was a bit too quick (but never broke the speed limit)" going up a narrow road with cars parked on both sides and try and get up the road moving in and out trying get up the road and let other cars through also. If I wasn't quick enough I would have been failed for not making progress.

I'm now waiting 6 months for another test and still no sign of a date, going by those figures I've another few months to go. Also a friend of my OH told me, her best friend while in a coffee shop before her test overheard 2 testers saying who they were going to fail that day, before these people even sat into a car! She went up to the and told them she was doing her test and if she failed she would go to the papers and radio with what she heard ...she passed!

The whole problem is the waiting list, and how many people driving on full licences never did a driving test either due to getting a licence before there was a test or during the last amnesty are causing accidents ?


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## contemporary

long waiting times mean more over time for the testers, the more they fail the  longer the list, the more the over time.... 43 weeks wait is a disgrace, i always got the feeling them boys worked to a quota, unoffically of course...


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## chum

are you insured while driving on prov license  without person with full license.


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## Marie

For the most part these posts make distressing and saddening reading.  As a response to the terrible annual fatality figures, general chaos around driving standards and "the driving test" in Ireland the powers-that-be are endeavouring to sort it out.  They suggest (a) that everyone driving on the roads should know how to do so safely - the competency test - and (b) that deterrents be put in place - speed cameras, for example - to those breaking the laws of the land by exceeding speed limits.

Instead of enthusiasm these attempts are cried down.  On the basis that they will not achieve greater safety on the roads for everyone?  Not at all!  They're cried down on the basis of 'the authorities are fools' 'the authorities/driving instructors/police/everyone else but me are corrupt' 'show me the evidence' or 'it's all a money-making racket'.  Or most importantly "They can't do that!  It will mean *I *have to submit to the laws of the land".

Perhaps if folks could - just for once - think about the hundreds of (usually younger!!!) drivers and passengers who die in fatal road traffic accidents every year, and the statistics which show these to be rising year-on-year, helpful legislation and systems could be put in place to make the roads and those using them, safer.


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## JP1234

I completely agree that everyone should be made to have mandatory lessons with a qualified instructor but taking 400,000 people off the road is ridiculous.  Of course a 18 year old with no experience should not be allowed on the road but what about the perfectly capable older people who have had lessons who are caught up the the government's inability to really tackle waiting times for tests.   As already mentioned, it is in the examiner's interests to have long waiting times and low pass rates, I know for fact that despite an extra examiner and tests all day each Saturday at the test centre near me, the waiting time has not gone down and the pass rate has decreased! The test itself needs looking at and if someone fails on relatively minor points they should be allowed to retake the test sooner and only be assessed on what they failed on, like the NCT! Personally I think if someone has proper lessons and shown in those they have competancy to drive that should be taken into account as part of the test too, it shouldn't be based on a 35 minute exercise when you will be nervous and pretty much at the whim of the examiner's mood that day.

Can anyone of us with full licences honestly say they never once drove unaccompanied while on a provisional, I doubt it.

The government need to tackle the bigger issues such as drink driving, people on mobile phones, ( I saw one woman happily chatting away on her phone at a dangerous junction in full view of the guards sitting in a car in front of me yesterday), speeding and foreign nationals who may have passed a test in their home country but have no idea how to drive or the meaning of road signs, rather than just swooping on one group.


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## Westbound

The situation with the licences that has arisen in this country is ridiculous, I agree that it needs to be sorted out, but how can the RSA expect to suddenly change what is now in effect an ingrained cultural habit within 48 hours? So many people depend on their cars to live their lives and the test waiting times are such joke, that this measure should be phased in. For example from X date it should apply to new licencees and then by X date the law will be applied in full.

I also would say it is a sure bet that in the next few weeks we will be hearing the stories emerging from test centres of the deluge of applications they have got and that test waiting times will get worse.

This measure is needed, the situation of learners going straight onto the roads has to stop, but the method is ill thought out needs to be better planned,  to allow people (the 450K) to sort things out, apply for and get tests. Otherwise it will be still be ignored by all and sundry.


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## webtax

square1 said:


> Just as a matter of interest - are there any statistics to prove the high number of road deaths have any link whatsoever to provisional license holders?



[broken link removed]
I'm sure there are plenty of other statistics available, which would explain why the insurance industry view learner drivers as the highest risk in terms of accidents & why the RSA are targetting this group. It stands to reason that inexperienced drivers or those who already have failed the test are a major cause of accidents.


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## Blinder

JP1234 said:


> Can anyone of us with full licences honestly say they never once drove unaccompanied while on a provisional, I doubt it.



I can.
I took lessons before my test so any time I drove on my provisional I had a driving instructor beside me. I passed my test and only then did I buy my first car.


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## Bronte

I think the new rules will change the driving culture in Ireland for the better if they are enforced.  I have no sympathy for those who have been driving for years on a provisional without bothering to do the test and I know some of them including one of my siblings.  I did drive when younger with a provisonal and no driver with me and other times without a provisonal and also on occasion without insurance.   I was wrong to drive in these circumstances, the only thing I can say about it was that was the culture in Ireland then.  (about 20 years ago).  My OH got one of those no test licences.  In his 20's he agrees himself that he was a dangerous driver.  He actually got rid of his car and motorbike as he was a danger to himself and others.  The statistics prove that young male drivers are the worst but they can't make laws just for them.  The law has to apply to everybody.  In a years time when the road death statistics come down we'll all be glad.  Just the same as we will see the health benefits of the smoking ban.  They also said that was not going to work!  Any of you who don't have the full licence would be well advised to apply to every driving test centre in Ireland (or the north/uk etc if possible)  this morning for a test before everybody else.  I have a feeling the applications are going to go through the roof.


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## JP1234

Blinder said:


> I can.
> I took lessons before my test so any time I drove on my provisional I had a driving instructor beside me. I passed my test and only then did I buy my first car.


 

Fair play to you then, I'd guess you would be the exception than the rule.  Though I drove alone I didn't do that until I had had plenty of lessons and practice and my instructor told me he felt he couldn't take any more money off me for lessons when my driving was fine, as I said earlier I definitely don't agree that people should be able to drive alone without having gone through formal training for a minimum number of hours.


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## sinbadsailor

Firstly, I have to say that I hope this sticks and we start to move forward as a country in the whole driving area, next stop should be the complete rebuild of the whole driver testing area, starting from our schools.

But back on point, while I agree it is not the fault of the thousands of drivers who have been let carry on thier daily lives on provisional licences, moving out of expensive and built up areas etc and therefore become completely dependant on their car as a mode of transport. The whole lack of a viable public transport system has a major part in this.

But in order to make a much needed and proper change in this area, it will hit certain road users. That what change is! It is unavoidable. I just think that drivers on multiple provisionals should really be asking themselves if  a) they are doing everything in their power to obtain a full licence b) they understand that this needs to be done and be a better person and agree that it benefits the many, albeit hitting the few in the process.

If thats the case then fair play to you, the system is letting you down. But if you a driver you just keeps getting provisional after provisional because you can, and have no interest in obtaining the full licence, well then this is your wake up call, you do not have a right to drive, it is a privelage and this move is designed to get you trained or get you off the road.

As for whether provisional drivers are more involved in accidents, well the fact that you are not fully qualified to drive on the roads until you pass the driver test, you will always be classed as inexperienced, no matter how long you have been driving and will be classed as such.

Lets just hope that the govt follows through and in turn, commits to making the changes required in the other areas of road safety to justifiy the discomfort and relative pain for those caught in the net this move throws out.


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## xb_deai

i waited 40 something weeks for a test arrived and my breaklight was gone had to reapply now waiting 23 weeks. So I have done what the system required but now according to them from tuesday can't drive. Like many ideas from central government it is a good idea that will probably fail as it does not have the necessary backup.They should have reduced the waiting times for tests then introduced this. There will now be an influx of applications which will further increase waiting times.


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## ACA

Think this idea is going to be a non-starter. Gardai won't prosecute if the insurance companies are prepared to pay out and the insurance companies will pay out if there is no prosecution pending!

In my job I *do* see a large number of young inexperienced drivers involved in accidents - not always the cause! I would have thought that mandatory lessons (10 for example) would have been the way to proceed whilst the testing centres get their act together. That way no-one is being put off the road and very young drivers are getting some tuition from someone qualified.


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## gianni

I am a  fully licenced driver and have been for the past 10 years but I think this decision is outrageous. And I'm not exaggerating. I agree that reform is needed but this is not the way.

THe majority of road traffic accidents are due to driver fatigue and drink driving. However the govt are not rushing to reduce the legal alcohol level. 

The suggestions of some posters  that the prov drivers should simply take public transport or apply for their test is too simplistic. Not everybody lives in areas served by public transport. Are they supposed to quit their jobs? Or perhaps hitch-hike ? 

And if they do apply for their test they will have to wait at best, 18 weeks (this is Noel Dempsey's target for 'virtually on demand tests' - speaking on Morning Ireland this morning). 4 and a half months is not on demand.

I can't see this being enforced... the situation is a shambles but this will make it worse.


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## Towger

chum said:


> are you insured while driving on prov license  without person with full license.



No. But the insurance company will payout to the 3rd party anyway. So there is little point the comprehensive insurance if you mainly drive by your self.


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## Caveat

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but won't all this simply mean that anyone on a provisional who actually drives with L plates up (I realise many don't) will now remove them to avoid being stopped/checked etc?

In itself an offence of course...


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## contemporary

Caveat said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned, but won't all this simply mean that anyone on a provisional who actually drives with L plates up (I realise many don't) will now remove them to avoid being stopped/checked etc?
> 
> In itself an offence of course...



most likely but really will the gardai want the extra work load that this creates? Northern Ireland has wait times of 2 weeks in places, their longest wait time is 9 weeks, if we had a system like that then this whole thing would be a non issue


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## SNOWBALL

What about all the people who got handed out free licences years ago.They should have to sit a test and not be exempt.I think the gov should be able to let people sit a test every 2-3 weeks and not have to wait.Its unfair if someone has to wait a few months not through their own fault to sit a test.I doubt it will be really enforced by many guards unless u have an  accident or come to a check point.


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## Slaphead

redchariot said:


> This is a great day for Irish motoring. It is about time the whole drving alone with a provisonal licence was clamped down. One of the stupidest things that I ever heard of, is the 2nd provisional licence rule where you can drive alone.
> 
> In practically every other country in Europe and probably the world, this practice would be totally unacepptable. In the North, you wouldn't even consider for half a second driving on your own. It is clamped down on heavily and ingrained in their culture; when I mention to anybody up there, the way it is down here, they are absolutely horrified.
> 
> Those people who compain that it has been going on for years seem to forget that they were breaking the law (except if on 2nd provisional licence); it just wan't enforced.
> 
> Bring it on, get the Gardai out there and start putting a stop to this nonsenical practice right away.



While ill agree that it's a stupid system and having learned to drive in Sweden with their system it's the only common sense way to do it. But then again you cant just dump this on people. The government have allowed this system for yrs and to suddenly illegalise and therefor force people to stay at home is ridiculuous. In sweden if you didnt have a car there were other options, here if you dont have a car your colloxed.


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## ney001

*L-Plate drivers I feel sorry for them!*

Have just read about laws for L-Plate drivers from Monday and have to say that I think it's a bit too draconian.  I know the Road Safety Authority have to deal with the deaths on the road in the best possible way but surely they realise that many people will have no option but to break the law next week.  Young people have to get to work and public transport isn't always an option, people have to get kids to childminders, people have to work and live and need to drive to do so - having a qualified driver with you at all times seems impossible. Surely this creates drivers who will not be confident once they qualify because for the first time they are on their own driving!.  I think they should have introduced a curfew by which time L-Plate drivers have to be accompanied, such as weekends or after 8pm - this just seems too drastic this morning and came with little or no warning.


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## Caveat

contemporary said:


> most likely but really will the gardai want the extra work load that this creates?


 
I suppose I was looking at it more from the driver's position. A driver on a provisional (without L plates) could be stopped and potentially maybe fined for 1. Driving unaccompanied and 2. Not having L plates displayed?

Without L plates displayed, will there simply have to be loads of checkpoints, stopping every vehicle, to identify these drivers? 

I don't know how this is going to work.

I would add that I don't feel much sympathy for those who are on their _nth _provisional and keep failing or deliberately missing tests - bascially, you obviously have a problem with driving so shouldn't be on the road anyway.  There are plenty of these people around. 

If this now means you can't get to work - tough.


----------



## Caveat

*Re: L-Plate drivers I feel sorry for them!*

There's a thread on this underway already in the _Car _section ney001.

Maybe these should be merged?


----------



## truthseeker

Caveat said:


> Not sure if this has been mentioned, but won't all this simply mean that anyone on a provisional who actually drives with L plates up (I realise many don't) will now remove them to avoid being stopped/checked etc?
> 
> In itself an offence of course...


 
Yes probably.
I asked a friend this morning what difference the new laws would make to him and his response was: 'Well, Ill be taking the L-plates down'


----------



## Ceist Beag

I just heard this morning that even if you are a full license holder over the required 2 years and you accompany a learner driver, if you (as the passenger) have been drinking, the learner driver is breaking the law! Feck me this is just absolutely crazy - what in effect they are saying is that if you are out for some drinks and then ring your wife to collect you, you are breaking the law in this scenario ... I can't believe this is considered moderate. Why don't they just label all learner drivers as killers as this is effectively what they seem to be saying. My wife as it happens is a perfectly safe driver - she failed her test due to driving too slow on a motorway - hardly makes her a killer does it! This nanny stateism is going too far.


----------



## JP1234

Listening to Ray D'Arcy the CEO of the RSA has just said that most accidents are caused by people within 2 years of passing their test.. which kind of contradicts what everyone has been saying about most accidents caused by "learner" drivers doesn't it?


----------



## Sunny

webtax said:


> [broken link removed]
> I'm sure there are plenty of other statistics available, which would explain why the insurance industry view learner drivers as the highest risk in terms of accidents & why the RSA are targetting this group. It stands to reason that inexperienced drivers or those who already have failed the test are a major cause of accidents.


 
To be fair that research doesn't support their argument to any great extent. Young drivers on full licenses have just as bad a record. A curfew on young drivers would make more of a difference to saving lives in my opinion than stopping people driving to work from places where the government is not providing them with proper public transport.

I just don't understand why they are giving about 4 days notice to people. Why couldn't they have made it from the 1st Jan and encouraged people to sit their tests before then which is what they are trying to do. It does sound stupid when you consider that they can't even agree on how to lower to alcohol limit. I would have thought that was easy. 0%


----------



## woodseb

being allowed to drive a few tons of metal around at high speeds in public is a privilage and not a right - some people should wake up to the fact

driving too slow on a motorway can be very dangerous by the way....


----------



## bacchus

They seem to be few people in this thread who did not bother looking into the changes brought in yesterday before making any comments.

L plate (red L on white background) will still have to be displayed if driver holds a provisionnal license . The provisional licenses will be gradullay phased out as they expired.

No new provisional license will be issued. Instead, a Learner permit will be issued. Drivers holding a Learner permit will have to display an L plate on yellow backgound.

Basically, from the above, i do not see much change other than the color of the L plate and the terminology used for the permit. 

But people currently on second provisional license are the most impacted as they need to be accompanied at all time...
IMO, it was daft to allow driver in the first place holding a  second pro. license not to have to be accompanied. 
That is now being corrected BUT may be with an unrealistic time frame.


A "flexible" system had been put in place to facilitate people driving needs. It has been abused and did lack of enforcement. 
I think this is the main point some people have an issue with.. crack down on out-laws..


----------



## truthseeker

Ceist Beag said:


> I just heard this morning that even if you are a full license holder over the required 2 years and you accompany a learner driver, if you (as the passenger) have been drinking, the learner driver is breaking the law!


 
That makes perfect sense to me, whats the point of an inebriated fully licensed driver in the car with someone on a learners permit?


----------



## Sammee

briancbyrne said:


> yes I have - waiting, and waiting, and waiting on a resit


 
So you've failed your test - which means you are not fit to drive on the roads (under the law of the land) but you think it's ok to drive and put everyone else lives in danger......great to see you're keeping both eyes on the road too whilst you change the radio over........


----------



## Caveat

bacchus said:


> L plate (red L on white background) will still have to be displayed if driver holds a provisionnal license


 
Don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.  The point is that people on provisionals, driving alone,  will now be less likely to comply with this requirement as it would draw attention to their learner status.


----------



## Mrs V

I sat my test in November 2006, failed as i broke speed limit 61 in a 60 mile zone,tester was in bad form so i knew i failed by the tiem i wsa finished i was a nervous wreck in the car with him was afraid to move incase he barked at me, applied the following day and still waiting in a new date i need to drive to work 30 mins from where i live if i took public transport i wud have 2 get 2 buses and then walk for 10 mins who says the buses are always going to be on time....I think its a complete joke


----------



## Ceist Beag

truthseeker said:


> That makes perfect sense to me, whats the point of an inebriated fully licensed driver in the car with someone on a learners permit?



Truthseeker let me make this a bit more real for you - people in rural areas want to go for a pint once in a while. They want to be responsible so instead of the bad old days of bringing their car they have their partner bring them instead and then ask their partner to collect them later on. So now in this pious new world of ours how do you expect this responsible couple to manage? Maybe we just drink at home and become an even more isolated community than we are already becoming?


----------



## truthseeker

Ceist Beag said:


> Truthseeker let me make this a bit more real for you - people in rural areas want to go for a pint once in a while. They want to be responsible so instead of the bad old days of bringing their car they have their partner bring them instead and then ask their partner to collect them later on. So now in this pious new world of ours how do you expect this responsible couple to manage? Maybe we just drink at home and become an even more isolated community than we are already becoming?


 

What would you do if you didnt have a partner to collect you from the pub?

Why dont you have a soft drink in the pub?


----------



## Ceist Beag

truthseeker said:


> What would you do if you didnt have a partner to collect you from the pub?
> 
> Why dont you have a soft drink in the pub?



Why don't you answer my question with an answer rather than questions?


----------



## woodseb

Ceist Beag said:


> Maybe we just drink at home and become an even more isolated community than we are already becoming?


 

a few more months waiting to pass their driving test (if they have any interest in doing so) won't cause the destruction of rural communities


----------



## woodseb

Ceist Beag said:


> Why don't you answer my question with an answer rather than questions?


 

are you familiar with the term rhetorical?


----------



## z103

> That makes perfect sense to me, whats the point of an inebriated fully licensed driver in the car with someone on a learners permit?



What's the point in having a totally sober person with someone on a learner's permit? - How are they going to stop an accident - pull the hand brake? Most cars aren't duel control.

Of course, not having an experienced driver present = €€€s for the government.


----------



## shanegl

Ceist Beag said:


> Truthseeker let me make this a bit more real for you - people in rural areas want to go for a pint once in a while. They want to be responsible so instead of the bad old days of bringing their car they have their partner bring them instead and then ask their partner to collect them later on. So now in this pious new world of ours how do you expect this responsible couple to manage? Maybe we just drink at home and become an even more isolated community than we are already becoming?


 
Oh, I don't know, maybe the partner in this scenario could pass her driving test perhaps?


----------



## truthseeker

Ceist Beag said:


> So now in this pious new world of ours how do you expect this responsible couple to manage? Maybe we just drink at home and become an even more isolated community than we are already becoming?


 

I expect you to have a soft drink in the pub or use whatever alternative you would use if you didnt have a partner to collect you from the pub.


----------



## truthseeker

leghorn said:


> What's the point in having a totally sober person with someone on a learner's permit? - How are they going to stop an accident - pull the hand brake? Most cars aren't duel control.
> 
> Of course, not having an experienced driver present = €€€s for the government.


 

They are not supposed to be present to stop an accident but to act as a driving instructor to a learner.
How can they instruct at all if they are drunk and their own reasoning skills are affected?


----------



## Ceist Beag

woodseb said:


> a few more months waiting to pass their driving test (if they have any interest in doing so) won't cause the destruction of rural communities



Fair enough woodseb. I'll tell ye what's at the nub of this for me - why are learner drivers being painted as the problem on our roads? What about all license carrying 18-19 year olds with souped up micras or worse even more powerful cars? Where are the stats that paint learner drivers as being the major culprits on the road? Maybe this is a step in the right direction but as far as I can see it is very unfair and very draconian.


----------



## Lydia

I passed my test only a few days ago so thankfully the new enforcements don't really apply to me. However this was my second time taking the test. I failed last year when my car cut out while I was sitting in traffic. I was about to take off and the car cut out. I failed my test because of this because what if the person behind me had taken off and then ran into me???? Isn't this their problem??? They shouldn't take off until they have seen me go? 
Anyway my point is as I failed my test on this reason am I a bad driver? I don't think so. How many people can honestly say they have never cut out. I only had 3 other ticks on the sheet. Incidentally had 5 when I passed the other day so technically was a better driver when I did the test first time around. 

In response to the person who questioned changing the radio station while driving. Everybody does this!!! Will we just take radios out of cars?


----------



## woodseb

Ceist Beag said:


> Fair enough woodseb. I'll tell ye what's at the nub of this for me - why are learner drivers being painted as the problem on our roads? What about all license carrying 18-19 year olds with souped up micras or worse even more powerful cars? Where are the stats that paint learner drivers as being the major culprits on the road? Maybe this is a step in the right direction but as far as I can see it is very unfair and very draconian.


 
there are measures on the way to restrict drivers in their first couple of years after the tests.....
i don't know the stats of how many learner drivers are responsible for crashes but nothing can get away from the fact that its crazy to be allowed unaccompanied on the road without having any checks and balances

maybe if these boy racers needed their parents sitting beside them all the time before their test they might be better drivers


----------



## truthseeker

Ceist Beag said:


> Fair enough woodseb. I'll tell ye what's at the nub of this for me - why are learner drivers being painted as the problem on our roads? What about all license carrying 18-19 year olds with souped up micras or worse even more powerful cars? Where are the stats that paint learner drivers as being the major culprits on the road? Maybe this is a step in the right direction but as far as I can see it is very unfair and very draconian.


 
What difference does it make if the stats prove learner drivers are the major culprits on the road or not? 
The new measures being introduced are in the interests of road safety - surely that can only be a good thing?


----------



## z103

> I was about to take off and the car cut out. I failed my test because of this because what if the person behind me had taken off and then ran into me???? Isn't this their problem??? They shouldn't take off until they have seen me go?



If the car cut out, you probably weren't in full control of the vehicle. 

When I was learning to drive, I was also told never to rely on what others were doing. To assume that they are wrong, or not looking, or they have accidently left their indicator on etc.  If you're relying on other people 'not taking off until they have seen you go' - then maybe you shouldn't have passed your test the second time.


----------



## bubbasmama

> Originally Posted by *woodseb* http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=511947#post511947
> _a few more months waiting to pass their driving test (if they have any interest in doing so) won't cause the destruction of rural communities_




45 weeks is not a few months, and I am sure everyone awaiting a test does have an interest in passing it. Not everyone has 'abused' the system. When the people who have not applied , now start to apply, how are they going to reduce the waiting time, when they have not done so so far ??


----------



## gianni

truthseeker said:


> What difference does it make if the stats prove learner drivers are the major culprits on the road or not?
> The new measures being introduced are in the interests of road safety - surely that can only be a good thing?


 

If we took all the males off the road it would improve road safety. If we only allowed driving during daylight hours it would improve road safety.

IMHO these suggestions are as ridiculous as the suggestion that 400,000 drivers are taken off the roads 'overnight.'


----------



## Mel

bacchus said:


> But people currently on second provisional license are the most impacted as they need to be accompanied at all time...
> IMO, it was daft to allow driver in the first place holding a second pro. license not to have to be accompanied.
> That is now being corrected BUT may be with an unrealistic time frame.


 
This is the bit that's killing (I'm obviously on my second provisional!).
I thought for the last year that I was within the law driving alone; I've recently moved house 30 miles from nearest family to be closer to work. Now from Monday, with about 72 huors notice, I will be breaking the law, and without any choice - there is no other way to get my son to school or myself to work (other than what would be a 10 mile round-trip in the morning and closer to 20 in the evening to collect from minder, either by foot or bike on lethal narrow back-roads). Actually there is, I could spend 2 hours each way on public transport - it would only mean a 25 mile round trip on CIE to get from home to the school which is 5 miles away, would mean a 7am setout from home to be in school by 8.50 - maybe I could then walk the other 6 miles back from the school to work... to be there by 9... ) 

I have no option but to drive illegally, there has been no word from the test centre on when my test might be, and I note that [broken link removed] is after crashing this morning...


----------



## woodseb

bubbasmama said:


> and I am sure everyone awaiting a test does have an interest in passing it. ??


 
they will now


----------



## Ceist Beag

truthseeker said:


> What difference does it make if the stats prove learner drivers are the major culprits on the road or not?
> The new measures being introduced are in the interests of road safety - surely that can only be a good thing?



Not if they are effectively making 400K people law breakers overnight it's not - where's the fairness in that? Sure us license holders can all pious and take the moral high ground but how a bit of realism for those 400K not in our fortunate position?


----------



## briancbyrne

Caveat said:


> I suppose I was looking at it more from the driver's position. A driver on a provisional (without L plates) could be stopped and potentially maybe fined for 1. Driving unaccompanied and 2. Not having L plates displayed?
> 
> Without L plates displayed, will there simply have to be loads of checkpoints, stopping every vehicle, to identify these drivers?
> 
> I don't know how this is going to work.
> 
> I would add that I don't feel much sympathy for those who are on their _nth _provisional and keep failing or deliberately missing tests - bascially, you obviously have a problem with driving so shouldn't be on the road anyway. There are plenty of these people around.
> 
> If this now means you can't get to work - tough.


 

--"If this now means you cant get to work - tough" 
- - I'd like you to say that face to face with somebody with dependants who stands to loose thier job, and cant make the mortgage payment the next time theres a hike - its very easy to judge in this faceless website - shame!


----------



## Lydia

Leghorn, if my break lights were on then yes I would assume that the person behind me would not take off. If they do it's their problem as they are not watching the road in front of them. 

As for not being in full control of the car, I would imagine most drivers have cut out at some point. Are we all bad drivers? No I don't think so. 

Back to my original point, just because you fail your test does not necessarily mean you are a bad driver. Yes in probably the majority of cases it does but not always!! Incidentally I reapplied straight after my first test and was waiting 11 months!!!!


----------



## corkfella

i'm on a full license but did drive on a provisional for a number of years having failed 1 test and waiting for a resit and I believe this is a joke BUT it wont be enforced, the previous law was just the same bar the 1000 euro fine and having been stopped on a couple of occassions by d guards they never asked why i did not have a full time driver in the car with me. sorry to go a bit off topic but I think this is absolute master spin by berties well paid spin doctors, d same day bertie gets a whopping undeserved payrise d whole country is up in arms about this license...coincidence...i think not my friends...noel dempsey was found to have made a huge mistake re shannon did not resign....cowen looks like he's going to raise taxes in a tough budget... all in all a pitiful week for d government but never mind all that we are too angry over this new crackdown to pay attention to what is happening in the background...gross incompetence by d government who reward themseleves with pay raises....


----------



## ClubMan

corkfella said:


> i'm on a full license but did drive on a provisional for a number of years having failed 1 test and waiting for a resit and I believe this is a joke BUT it wont be enforced, the previous law was just the same bar the 1000 euro fine and having been stopped on a couple of occassions by d guards they never asked why i did not have a full time driver in the car with me. sorry to go a bit off topic but I think this is absolute master spin by berties well paid spin doctors, d same day bertie gets a whopping undeserved payrise d whole country is up in arms about this license...coincidence...i think not my friends...noel dempsey was found to have made a huge mistake re shannon did not resign....cowen looks like he's going to raise taxes in a tough budget... all in all a pitiful week for d government but never mind all that we are too angry over this new crackdown to pay attention to what is happening in the background...gross incompetence by d government who reward themseleves with pay raises....


Do we have to fill in the ... blanks ourselves?


----------



## truthseeker

Ceist Beag said:


> Not if they are effectively making 400K people law breakers overnight it's not - where's the fairness in that? Sure us license holders can all pious and take the moral high ground but how a bit of realism for those 400K not in our fortunate position?


 

That is a fair point. While I agree with the new measures I believe it could have been implemented in a more practical manner.


----------



## Nairb

Ceist Beag said:


> Truthseeker let me make this a bit more real for you - people in rural areas want to go for a pint once in a while. They want to be responsible so instead of the bad old days of bringing their car they have their partner bring them instead and then ask their partner to collect them later on. So now in this pious new world of ours how do you expect this responsible couple to manage? Maybe we just drink at home and become an even more isolated community than we are already becoming?



Surely the partner couldn't collect them later as would have to have a qualified driver with them from the house to the pub on the way to collect their partner?

Seriously, I have to say these rules make sense. People should prove that they are fit to drive before they can drive unaccompanied. I'm sure that there are people on a provisional license who are competent and for one reason or another doesn’t have a full license but the only way to differentiate is to classify drivers based on their license category.


----------



## Caveat

briancbyrne said:


> --"If this now means you cant get to work - tough"
> - - I'd like you to say that face to face with somebody with dependants who stands to loose thier job, and cant make the mortgage payment the next time theres a hike - its very easy to judge in this faceless website - shame!


 
So you're saying I should feel sympathy for people who deliberately miss test appointments, are not bothered to improve their driving status and who have otherwise demonstrated that they shouldn't be on the road? 

Well I don't. What they are doing is illegal, immoral, lazy and dangerous - shame on them, I would suggest.

And if I came face to face with those provisional drivers who fall into this category I would have no problem telling them so.


----------



## corkfella

clubman what i am saying is the timing of this announcment means that it deflects heat from the fact the government had a woeful week...do you not agree?


----------



## Sunny

There does seem to be a bit of a holier than thou attitude on this thread from people with full licences. Have one myself so these new laws mean nothing to me but I do have a lot of sympathy for *most *provisional drivers. Its not their fault that the whole system has been a joke for many years and now suddenly they pay the price in a 5 day period. Its also not fair that some people seem to think that removing provisional drivers from the road, or giving them a right coloured licence will suddenly mean road deaths will be cut dramtically. Why are young people given full licences for successfully doing a three point turn? Why are full licence holders not required to resit a test every 5 years? Why do people still drink and drive? Why do people still speed?


----------



## briancbyrne

Caveat said:


> So you're saying I should feel sympathy for people who deliberately miss test appointments, are not bothered to improve their driving status and who have otherwise demonstrated that they shouldn't be on the road?
> 
> Well I don't. What they are doing is illegal, immoral, lazy and dangerous - shame on them, I would suggest.
> 
> And if I came face to face with those provisional drivers who fall into this category I would have no problem telling them so.


 

well I'm sure there is someone close to home that falls into thiis bracket so maybe you could start there..... rather than spouting this "McDowell type" rhetoric in an anonymous capacity...he doesnt seem to have gone away !


----------



## Caveat

briancbyrne said:


> well I'm sure there is someone close to home that falls into thiis bracket so maybe you could start there..... rather than spouting this "McDowell type" rhetoric in an anonymous capacity...he doesnt seem to have gone away !


 
What on earth are you going on about now?

Did you read my post properly at all? You do realise that I'm not directing this at provisional licence holders in general don't you?


----------



## Erasure

I am puzzled at the people coming on here claiming they failed their test for a specific reason and that it wasn't fair. The testing system states that if you have a certain amount of grade 1 or grade 2 faults you fail and a grade 3 fault fails.  The grade 3 faults are obviously when you are causing danger to others so why on earth should you pass your test if you are causing danger?????????


----------



## Toby

something has to be done to let the gov see how much of a catastrophy this is for many people, any ideas? Who do we contact? Does anyone know the link to the TDs email addresses or something?


----------



## truthseeker

jaybird said:


> Don't know about others, but my point was that the tester wasn't even paying attention to what I was doing. She seemed to tick boxes at random throughout the test. I have no idea whether I did any good at all really. Doesn't really help me when it some to improving for a retest either.


 
They deliberately behave as if they arent paying attention to just let you get on with it.
Why dont you have any idea how you did - were you not given the sheet with the various checkpoints on it afterwards?


----------



## CrazyWater

A lot of people seem very angry about the short notice of this move. However, when Seamus Brennan was Minister for Transport he announced that the provisional licence system was going to be overhauled. Brennan left the Dept of Transport in September 2004 so the writing has been on the wall for at least three years now! (I can’t recall when he actually appeared on the Late Late Show.) 

Anyone who was on a provisional then has had at least 3 opportunities to pass their test (at a 45 week wait). Furthermore anyone receiving a provisional since then should have made it an absolute priority to pass their tests at the earliest opportunity. This was the approach taken by my nephew who at the tender age of 19 proudly holds a full licence for both passenger cars and ridget trucks (and before you ask he sat these test in the west which has one of the longest waiting times in the country). 

The system needs to be overhauled and in so doing it is going to really cheese off an heck of a lot of voters so no surprises that the Government finally got around to doing this in year 1 of what they hope will be a 5 year term.


----------



## Paulone

If I read what's in the paper correctly, this means that from next Tuesday, a provisional driver's car insurance remains valid, but:

* If that driver is unaccompanied and gets stopped by a gard = driver sent home on foot & possible prosecution under the new rules

* If that driver is unaccompanied and is in an accident = insurance company can argue that the driver was outside the law and refuse to cover, plus possible prosecution if the gards get called

There must be 000s of people out there who, to stay within the law, will have to park up their cars next Tuesday and get the bus, reserving the car for evenings and weekend practice when they can find someone to accompany them?

One friend of mine on a provisional says he's cancelling his tax & insurance and taking his car off the road.

Another on a provisional says she thinks the law is completely unenforceable and intends to drive on the same.

A colleague who's partner only has a provisional says she doesn't if he's going to be able to do the school run and get to work anymore - they live in a commuter town in Kildare and he has to get to Bray every morning for work.

We'll see next Tuesday exactly what will happen but this is a huge change and it has no real lead in time. I actually agree that people learning to drive here should not do so unsupervised, but it seems that in our totally car-based society, this'll effectively take thousands who are currently driving off the roads.


----------



## z103

> IMHO these suggestions are as ridiculous as the suggestion that 400,000 drivers are taken off the roads 'overnight.'



Put like that it doesn't sound too bad!  Imagine how clear the roads will be.



> and I note that [broken link removed] is after crashing this morning...


Lol, there's irony in there.


----------



## paddyc

Sammie110 said:


> I am puzzled at the people coming on here claiming they failed their test for a specific reason and that it wasn't fair. The testing system states that if you have a certain amount of grade 1 or grade 2 faults you fail and a grade 3 fault fails. The grade 3 faults are obviously when you are causing danger to others so why on earth should you pass your test if you are causing danger?????????


 

Do you really think the testers are completely fair? Failing loads of people creates a massive backlog, which means overtime for them .....I'm not certain about this but were they not threatening industrial action in the last couple of years too if the govt brought in more testers/ private test centres to help clear the backlog. 

Also while you are a L driver you can't go on a motorway, you can pass your test and start driving on one straight away with no experienced driver beside you and having no experience on the motorway ....this is also stupid but may be changed now.

If they can't get the test times down then something like may every learner take lessons with a fully qualified instructor who can effectively give a "pre test" and give a pass fail rate on which the provisional holder can drive unaccompanied until their test and must pass first before applying for the test. If they fail then go through the whole process again? Something like this is more pheasable than saying come Tuesday morning you can't drive on your own!


----------



## Mel

Paulone said:


> Another on a provisional says she thinks the law is completely unenforceable and intends to drive on the same.


 
I'm inclined to think the same, and have no option but to work on that assumption. I can't see how the rules that apply (to a 2nd provisional licences) can be changed AFTER those licences were issued - it seems so innately unjust. 

What are the chances that it will stand up in court? 

Or am I missing the very point of an on-the-spot fine? that you have no chance to defend yourself?


----------



## grahamo

About time the laws were enforced concerning learner drivers. These measures have been planned for years so they can't say they knew nothing about it! I knew this was going to happen someday and applied to sit the test down the country where there were shorter waiting lists.  Having said that I don't think the driving test is a fair test. There is no set curriculum which is totally wrong. Long waiting lists are also totally unacceptable.


----------



## gianni

Minister Dempsey has just spoken on Radio 1 news at 1. If I was a prov licence holder I wouldn't have any worries!

The jist of his words were that the gardai will still be using their discretion. Sean O'Rourke put it to him that nothing really has changed... and Dempsey _almost_ agreed. 

It has *always* been against the law for 1st, 3rd and subsequent prov licence holders to drive unaccompanied. The new law is bringing 2nd prov holders into this group too. Having seen how closely the law has been policed over the past 40 years I don't see any major changes happening now that 2nd prov holders have been included.


----------



## Bellerophon

Sn@kebite said:


> Very naive post altogether.



I couldn't agree more with Snakebite - what an idiotic post from redchariot!


----------



## Sunny

Looks like they are being deferred until the new year. Good to see some common sense

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1026/roadsafety.html


----------



## shanegl

Good. No-one will be able to complain that they've had no notice when it does come into force then. I honestly can't get my head around why people think they have a right to drive around unsupervised and unqualified. It just boggles the mind!


----------



## Stifster

Towger said:


> No. But the insurance company will payout to the 3rd party anyway. So there is little point the comprehensive insurance if you mainly drive by your self.


 
Sorry but that makes no sense.

A passenger in your car can sue you if you are insured under third party cover.

Comprehensive IMO is for people with more expensive cars as you can recover for your own vehicle as well.


----------



## Guest120

Sunny said:


> Looks like they are being deferred until the new year. Good to see some common sense
> 
> http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1026/roadsafety.html


There is actually no substance to that story, no source, no quote, no nothing.


----------



## Bellerophon

shanegl said:


> Good. No-one will be able to complain that they've had no notice when it does come into force then. I honestly can't get my head around why people think they have a right to drive around unsupervised and unqualified. It just boggles the mind!



48 weeks waiting time to sit test boggles my mind!


----------



## Sunny

Bluetonic said:


> There is actually no substance to that story, no source, no quote, no nothing.


 
Its RTE. What do you expect!!! I am assuming they got it somewhere though. Can someone explain the logic behind this comment from Minister Dempsey.

'Mr Dempsey says the reason to introduce the measure immediately was to prevent a flood of applications for tests and licences by people hoping to beat the deadline.'

Surely there is going to be a flood of applications anyway if they bring it in on Tuesday......


----------



## marnif

I am a Learner driver. I am very angry at the way this was done. I am forunate to have some experience on the road. I do feel sorry for anyone that has to apply for this new permit.
Its a complete money racket!
Other drivers seem to think that we are the cause of all accidents - but twice full licenced drivers have nearly crashed into me! Only my alertness have saved me!
I have to drive my son to school - I would have no issue with this law but there is no public transport for me to get him to school and go to work.
I am a single parent with a mortgage so taxis is going to really cost a fortune!.
If this notice goes ahead it would be a relief!


----------



## Mely

Guys,

I'm all for safer roads etc. I'm a 26 year old female. In july just gone I did 20 lessons in a learner car. Then bought my own 1.2 corsa. I insured it fully comprehensive. 
The only time i use my car is to work & back & just down the road for shopping. Previous to this I was using the bus. 2 buses out & 2 buses in. 3 hours of my day travelling & waiting around for the buses, never on time, waiting in wind, rain, hailstones you name it. Tired before i get to work, tired when i get home. I was just miserable. But when i got my car it was the best thing i ever did. I had been much more happier. I applied for test also, still not knowing when i'll have it. 
But to be honest so far i have not had any accidents, i am not causing a scene or obstruction to other drivers, in fact what i have seen on the roads is alot of fault of experienced drivers - ones who pull out while i'm on the roundabout having right of way & here is some guy with no l plates blowing kisses at me & driving out in front of me on the roundabout. Or those experienced drivers who dont put on either hazzard lights or indicators when turning or on roundabouts etc. I can honestly say the only mistake i have made while driving so far is conking a few times which has now stopped, on the by pass the speed limit was 100km i was going 100 miles, but after learning my mistake i now only drive 100km, feel very slow though as alot of cars are going so fast breaking the speed limit & over taking me. 

Its going to be very hard for me next week as i have no experienced driver that can accompany me at all times, & to face all that agony again esp with winter coming & dark nights. Its not safe as a female to be waiting around for 4 buses a day when they dont come on time. 
I only spent 40euros on petrol every 3 weeks. Bus tickets would be more than that for the month & taxis would cost 30 euros per day. Not sure what i'm going to do, the driving test website is still down, not sure of my test date & not sure what i'm going to do next week.


----------



## Slaphead

Sunny said:


> There does seem to be a bit of a holier than thou attitude on this thread from people with full licences.



Agreed, and im a full licence holder. Loads of ppl where i were are fuched on tuesday morning (bank hol.
I think the common concensus is that most ppl agree with the rule but it cant be just landed on ppl like this. It should have been changed 20 or 30 yrs ago. If ppl adhere to the law the country will be a couple of hundred thousand ppl down on tuesday morning!


----------



## paddyc

I think nobody would complain if the waiting time for tests was down to about 10 weeks max for all test centres and then this law was enforced


----------



## Mely

i wonder if there will be alot of cancellations of car insurance, car tax, & less money spent of petrol when this comes in. 
Someone will be losing out on money.


----------



## truthseeker

Slaphead said:


> If ppl adhere to the law the country will be a couple of hundred thousand ppl down on tuesday morning!


 
Why? There are always alternative methods for getting to work.
I spent a couple of months on crutches last year, couldnt drive and public transport available wasnt practical on crutches. Nor could I cycle, or walk. So I made alternative arrangements to get to and from work.


----------



## Sunny

truthseeker said:


> Why? There are always alternative methods for getting to work.
> I spent a couple of months on crutches last year, couldnt drive and public transport available wasnt practical on crutches. Nor could I cycle, or walk. So I made alternative arrangements to get to and from work.


 
What did you do?


----------



## Mely

truthseeker said:


> Why? There are always alternative methods for getting to work.
> I spent a couple of months on crutches last year, couldnt drive and public transport available wasnt practical on crutches. Nor could I cycle, or walk. So I made alternative arrangements to get to and from work.



Yipeee 30 euros a day on taxis for me then over a 20 day month.

or 

3 hours waiting for buses in the dark cold evenings.


----------



## truthseeker

I asked 2 people who worked in the same company as me would they share the collection/delivery home of myself and my crutches.
One lived within a mile of me, the other was a couple of miles away.
There was a 3 day period where neither of them was working, so I asked someone else (n a different company but near my job) for a lift those days.


----------



## Slaphead

truthseeker said:


> I spent a couple of months on crutches last year, couldnt drive and public transport available wasnt practical on crutches. Nor could I cycle, or walk. So I made alternative arrangements to get to and from work.



Would you like a leather medal?


----------



## Rex

like most people writing here i'm on a provisional licence, have taken my test twice and failed on both occassions last time on christmas eve!!  i'm currently waiting a new date.  I have never been in a crash in my life and regard myself as a good driver but unfortunately nerves have got the better of me and that's the reason i have failed.  I have prepared well and taken numerous pre tests and told i would most certainly pass but unfortunately didn't third time lucky maybe?  Now I will be unable to drive on my own but I could always ask my father in his sixties who has a full licence and never did a test in his life to accompany me, got the amnesty in the 70's!!


----------



## truthseeker

Slaphead said:


> Would you like a leather medal?


 

I would.


----------



## Sunny

truthseeker said:


> I asked 2 people who worked in the same company as me would they share the collection/delivery home of myself and my crutches.
> One lived within a mile of me, the other was a couple of miles away.
> There was a 3 day period where neither of them was working, so I asked someone else (n a different company but near my job) for a lift those days.


 
Hope they had full licences


----------



## Slaphead

Sunny said:


> Hope they had full licences



Lol


----------



## ronny78

> I honestly can't get my head around why people think they have a right to drive around unsupervised and unqualified. It just boggles the mind! :confused


 

Perhaps because up until this announcement yesterday, people on their second provisional licence did have the right ?!

I have a full licence as it happens so thankfully unaffected. I agree that the system should be changed as outlined in these proposals, but giving people a days notice before a bank holiday weekend after years of ignoring the problem and never addressing the issue of the completely inadequate public transport in this country, I completely sympathise with those people who are affected by this. Hopefully that RTE news story will turn out to be true on the deferral. Might force them to tackle the backlog on the tests over the next few months to at least give people a chance to get things in order before these rules are actually applied.


----------



## truthseeker

Sunny said:


> Hope they had full licences


 
well at the time they didnt need them 

Judging by some responses here people seem to think that they have no alternatives, Im simply pointing out that they do.


----------



## ney001

I don't know what the stats for L-driver accident and fatalities is in Ireland but surely if L-drivers cause at least some of these deaths or indeed die themselves in accidents, forcing them to have a passenger in the car with them could mean the death of another person - i.e two could die or be injuried instead of one! - we are forcing more people to be in cars then there would ordinarily be - more people, more injuries.  Having a fully qualified driver in the car would do absolutely nothing to prevent an accident - for example what if you have one of these 'lucky bag' licence holders who got one in the 80's without doing a test - I personally know 2 such people and one of them is an absolutely terrible driver by their own admission and would surely fail the test if forced to do it -what good would this person be?.  

I feel sorry for these learner drivers and I think it's so easy for the qualified drivers to be smug about it all - they forget that they too were once learner drivers!


----------



## Mel

truthseeker said:


> well at the time they didnt need them
> 
> Judging by some responses here people seem to think that they have no alternatives, Im simply pointing out that they do.


 
neither did some of us until yesterday! 
I'm sure my neighbours will be delighted when I turn up on their doorsteps begging for lifts


----------



## truthseeker

Mel said:


> neither did some of us until yesterday!
> I'm sure my neighbours will be delighted when I turn up on their doorsteps begging for lifts


 
Im not saying it was a lovely easy solution. But it was a solution nonetheless.


----------



## jodub

"





truthseeker said:


> briancbyrne - I assume you mean you need to drive to get to work (judging by what you say about public transport).
> 
> Theres always a bicycle.
> 
> Thouands of workers get to work everyday in ways other than driving themselves.
> 
> There is always a choice, but you may not like the alternatives, such as public transport or via bicycle. You could always get a job thats easier to get to? "
> 
> 
> There is not always a choice, and you cannot say that if you don't know the situation. People have mortgages etc to pay, they cannot just quit their jobs and hope they'll get one nearer.
> What if someone has to travel 50 miles for work everyday, you think a bicycle is the solution?? What if someone is a tradesperson and has to carry tools to different jobs everyday? There is not always an alternative. I agree that something needs to be done about the system, but they should phase it in. The drivingtest.ie website is down all day today. Looks like everyone is applying at the one time, so where they had the waiting lists down to 10 weeks, it will probably now go back to the 50 weeks it was not too long ago.


----------



## gianni

truthseeker said:


> Judging by some responses here people seem to think that they have no alternatives, Im simply pointing out that they do.


 

Those who live in densely populated areas with public transport and in close proximity to their places of work have plenty of alternatives.

Those living in sparsely populated rural areas have few if any alternatives.

Currently circa 40% of our population live in rural areas. We have one of the most geographically disperse populations in the EU. 

I have little sympathy for people who live in Booterstown and now have to take a bus/cycle to UCD instead of driving their car (as heard in an interview with Valerie Cox on Pat Kenny this morning).


----------



## Bellerophon

paddyc said:


> I think nobody would complain if the waiting time for tests was down to about 10 weeks max for all test centres and then this law was enforced



agreed


----------



## Slaphead

jodub said:


> "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> truthseeker said:
> 
> 
> 
> briancbyrne - I assume you mean you need to drive to get to work (judging by what you say about public transport).
> Theres always a bicycle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've just moved back from sweden and over there i cycled the whole time, rain hail, snow, -25. Because they had bike paths as good as the roads. I wouldnt risk it here.
Click to expand...


----------



## truthseeker

jodub said:


> What if someone has to travel 50 miles for work everyday, you think a bicycle is the solution??


 
No - and I never suggested that it was. If I had to travel 50 miles everyday and I couldnt use my car anymore Id get a little moped.


----------



## jodub

And then would you put a little trailer on that moped and put all your tools in it??


----------



## truthseeker

jodub said:


> And then would you put a little trailer on that moped and put all your tools in it??


 
I wouldnt have to - theres storage space available on them.


----------



## sinbadsailor

so would I be right in saying that everyone on this thread who thinks, 'poor driver' or the like think it is their right to drive just because they can afford the car and the people who are making valid points understand that this development is a step in the right direction. For once I applaud the change as it does show some sort of intention on the govt part. Let's hope the TV is filled with figures of people getting caught from now one and really give us a good message that they are actually implementing, rather than blowing air.


----------



## truthseeker

sinbadsailor said:


> so would I be right in saying that everyone on this thread who thinks, 'poor driver' or the like think it is their right to drive just because they can afford the car and the people who are making valid points understand that this development is a step in the right direction.


 
by the looks of things - you certainly would be right


----------



## ney001

truthseeker said:


> I wouldnt have to - theres storage space available on them.



Is there storage space to drop your kids to childminder because childminder can't come to your house anymore because she's a learner driver as well


----------



## jodub

Really? then your obviously thinking of smaller tools than i am!! 

I totally agree that they have to make changes, but i cannot understand that people cannot see a problem with the short notice of these changes.  It is totally unfair.  

And its all very well when you have your licence which i have, it doesn't affect you, but you have to think about the huge impact that this is going to have on a lot of peoples lives if it is enforced.


----------



## ney001

truthseeker said:


> by the looks of things - you certainly would be right



So only the posters who agree with you are making valid points?? - this isn't just a step in the right direction - it's a whole mile in the right direction, that's the point it's too much too soon with too little notice.  Everybody agrees with making the roads safer for all users but practicality has to come into it - people have to work and in a lot of cases these are important jobs such as nursing, caring, teaching etc - those on the high horse with their full licence will be the first ones giving out when the teachers, nurses and the like don't show up for work!

This should be phased in with good notice given to all drivers - over a weekend is not good enough


----------



## Mel

truthseeker said:


> Im not saying it was a lovely easy solution. But it was a solution nonetheless.


 
It was a solution for a limited time because you were injured; nobody LIKES being lumped with a lump of a passenger no matter how polite they may have been about it. 

I do agree that the system as it stands is a shambles, and I don't disagree that needs to be changed, but as someone already made teh point, not this way! 

People make decisions based on the information available to them at the time; to pull the rug on people like this is just plain unfair. I suspect it's just a tactic though, a means to changing the culture of driving in this country. I don't see 40,000 people being put off the road next week.


----------



## Nairb

ney001 said:


> Is there storage space to drop your kids to childminder because childminder can't come to your house anymore because she's a learner driver as well


In my opinion you shouldn't be carrying a precious load like that unless you've proved that you are a competent driver.

In any other country in the world these rules are standard, I think the problem here is that they look draconian when compared with what was in place previously. 
In 2 years time we'll look back and say that this was a brave move. We could let this drag on for another 2 years to make sure we didn't put people out, but how many lives would be lost in the meantime?


----------



## truthseeker

jodub said:


> I totally agree that they have to make changes, but i cannot understand that people cannot see a problem with the short notice of these changes. It is totally unfair.


 
If you read previous posts on the thread you will see that I do disagree with how it is being implemented.


----------



## Brouhahaha

ney001 said:


> Is there storage space to drop your kids to childminder because childminder can't come to your house anymore because she's a learner driver as well



Possible solution


----------



## Mely

To affect over 400k learner drivers to save only 400 in a five year period - that seems very little.

to the small amount of guards on our road looking out for drink driving & speeding who cant even do that right are now been taken away from that to look out for learner drivers on the roads alone.

having an experience driver in the car is not going to make you a good driver. Listening to someone in the car saying dont do this dont do that. Ever heard of dont take lessons from family or friends. 

i'm going to get my dad to drive his car to my house, sit in it while i drive to work, make him sit 8 1/2 hours in the car until i finish & i drive back home so he can collect his car & drive home, all this plus getting him to take his time away from his job.

If there not trying to run us off the roads completely, can they help in the solution as to how we can still drive & have experienced drivers in the car at all times.


----------



## Ceist Beag

truthseeker said:


> Why? There are always alternative methods for getting to work.



Not true - what if you're job is a community based job where you need to drive (yourself) around the community? Not every job fits neatly into a 9-5 office type job where a bus or colleague can get you there and back.


----------



## ney001

Nairb said:


> In my opinion you shouldn't be carrying a precious load like that unless you've proved that you are a competent driver.
> 
> In any other country in the world these rules are standard, I think the problem here is that they look draconian when compared with what was in place previously.
> In 2 years time we'll look back and say that this was a brave move. We could let this drag on for another 2 years to make sure we didn't put people out, but how many lives would be lost in the meantime?




How wonderful so what happens when a mother to a new born baby or indeed a couple of children is at home 24/7 cannot even drive to the local shop to get nappies if she needs to, what does she do in case of emergency?  There are so many grey areas here, don't assume that just because you haven't done your test you're a bad driver.  Like I said what about the older drivers with their free licences - do you think they would pass a test if they had to sit one now! -


----------



## ney001

Brouhahaha said:


> Possible solution



Ha ha - you might just need a little raincover for Ireland though!


----------



## Guest120

Ceist Beag said:


> Not true - what if you're job is a community based job where you need to drive (yourself) around the community?


Employeers would require a full clean driving licence for such a job.


----------



## truthseeker

Ceist Beag said:


> Not true - what if you're job is a community based job where you need to drive (yourself) around the community? Not every job fits neatly into a 9-5 office type job where a bus or colleague can get you there and back.


 
Why anyone in their right mind have accepted a job such as this if they werent a fully licensed driver in the first place baffles me.


----------



## Slaphead

Brouhahaha said:


> Possible solution



that'll be the next problem, the boy racers will forced off the roads and discover EU mopeds that can go 50, 60, 70 km's, much handier for driving  on footpaths, around estates and through playgrounds.


----------



## Nairb

ney001 said:


> How wonderful so what happens when a mother to a new born baby or indeed a couple of children is at home 24/7 cannot even drive to the local shop to get nappies if she needs to, what does she do in case of emergency?  There are so many grey areas here, don't assume that just because you haven't done your test you're a bad driver.  Like I said what about the older drivers with their free licenses - do you think they would pass a test if they had to sit one now! -


Ney001, I never said that all provisional license holders are bad drivers but there has to be some way of differentiating between people are learning and those who are qualified. You can't for example let an apprentice electrician wire your house, it has to be certified by a qualified electrician - That doesn't mean that certain apprentices couldn't do the job, they're just not qualified to do it.

In relation to your example about the mother with the small kids, lots of people don't have cars at all - what do they do in that situation? Just because you have a car doesn't give you the right to drive it.


----------



## jodub

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=9902&lang=ENG&loc=2126


----------



## Ceist Beag

Bluetonic said:


> Employeers would require a full clean driving licence for such a job.



Again not true ... it happens and no point pretending it doesn't. And it cannot be undone over a bank holiday weekend!


----------



## ney001

truthseeker said:


> Why anyone in their right mind have accepted a job such as this if they werent a fully licensed driver in the first place baffles me.



Maybe the job didn't come with free crystal ball and they didn't know that on the 30th Oct they would be breaking the law by driving on their own - even though up to this point they were on a second provisional and it wasn't an issue??


----------



## jodub

truthseeker said:


> Why anyone in their right mind have accepted a job such as this if they werent a fully licensed driver in the first place baffles me.


Because up until this weekend there was no problem with doing so.


----------



## Mely

> Just because you have a car doesn't give you the right to drive it.



Why not, if you've paid for the car, paid for tax, insurance & petrol. Why doesnt it give you the right to drive it? (taking into account that lessons have been taking & theory test passed etc)


----------



## truthseeker

ney001 said:


> Maybe the job didn't come with free crystal ball and they didn't know that on the 30th Oct they would be breaking the law by driving on their own - even though up to this point they were on a second provisional and it wasn't an issue??


 
Surely the insurance costs alone would put someone off accepting such a position without a full licence?

Very remiss of an employer to accept a provisionally licensed driver for such a position also.


----------



## Mely

I have fully comp & wondering if i should cancel the insurance as if i have a fully insured experienced driver in the car with me.


----------



## ney001

Nairb said:


> Ney001, I never said that all provisional license holders are bad drivers but there has to be some way of differentiating between people are learning and those who are qualified. You can't for example let an apprentice electrician wire your house, it has to be certified by a qualified electrician - That doesn't mean that certain apprentices couldn't do the job, they're just not qualified to do it.
> 
> In relation to your example about the mother with the small kids, lots of people don't have cars at all - what do they do in that situation? Just because you have a car doesn't give you the right to drive it.



Well I would guess that if someone didn't have a car then this wouldn't affect them in the slightest because they wouldn't have come to depend on their ability to drive to the local shops - what they don't have they won't miss.  This affects those who have been up to now using their car to get around on a daily basis.  My point is - it's not black and white! - I don't think you can compare apprentice electricians to Learner drivers!


----------



## Nairb

Mely said:


> Why not, if you've paid for the car, paid for tax, insurance & petrol. Why doesnt it give you the right to drive it? (taking into account that lessons have been taking & theory test passed etc)


If you haven't passed the exam you're not qualified. Simple as. It's a lethal weapon so surely there has to be some restriction on who can use it!


----------



## ronny78

So much for RTEs earlier article on deferral of these new rules

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/1026/roadsafety.html


----------



## shnaek

I must admit that I would be amazed to see this law enforced in any meaningful way. The Gardai are simply too busy to be stopping every car to check if the driver has a full license or not. 
We are great at making laws for this and that without thinking them through. 

Do we have a way to get through the backlog of people awaiting driving tests?
Are we going to take Gardai off the streets so they have the resources to check licenses? Personally I'd prefer have them on the streets. 

I would also prefer to see thoughtful and achievable legislation enacted rather than half-assed ill conceived efforts which serve only to make a mockery of the law. 

I am all for better qualified drivers on our roads - God knows there are enough rubbish drivers out there. I can't come in to work without passing a crash at least once a week. But reports and legislation are useless unless backed up by properly resourced action.


----------



## ney001

Mely said:


> I have fully comp & wondering if i should cancel the insurance as if i have a fully insured experienced driver in the car with me.



Good point - I wonder will the insurance companies come forth and offer major discounts to Learner drivers now that they have experienced driver with them at all times.  No more quotes of €5000 plus for learner drivers


----------



## jodub

I think it would make more sense to have along with the theory test when gaining a provisional licence or learners permit, to attend a driving school. Would be great if this was part of the school curriculam.

Then maybe after that, have to do a certain amount of hours lessons as a learner driver.Yes, this would cost a lot of money but i think there is too much emphasis being put on 20 minutes of a test.


----------



## ney001

Nairb said:


> If you haven't passed the exam you're not qualified. Simple as. It's a lethal weapon so surely there has to be some restriction on who can use it!



okay what about those that got licences without tests - they are not qualified either - It's a pity you don't need a licence for a high horse!


----------



## MrMan

> Surely the insurance costs alone would put someone off accepting such a position without a full licence?
> 
> Very remiss of an employer to accept a provisionally licensed driver for such a position also.



I had full licence for 5 years and there was still girls on provisional licences getting cheaper insurance than me.

Alot of positions require mobility and the employers would require the best person for the job not the best driver. If you are not using company car or insurance why would it bother the employer wheter you were on a provisional or not


----------



## truthseeker

jodub said:


> I think it would make more sense to have along with the theory test when gaining a provisional licence or learners permit, to attend a driving school. Would be great if this was part of the school curriculam.


 
An excellent suggestion.


----------



## marnif

Some peoples responds and suggestions seem good.
I am still getting the feedback from people that all learner drivers are at fault from accidents.
Full licence drivers nearly crashed into me because they did not obey the rules of the road!.
I think all drivers should be made resit the exam after 5 years.
With relation to going on my bike to work thats ok if you don't have to bring your kid to school as well.

The road is so dangerous for any driver never mind cyclist!


----------



## truthseeker

marnif said:


> Some peoples responds and suggestions seem good.
> I am still getting the feedback from people that all learner drivers are at fault from accidents.
> Full licence drivers nearly crashed into me because they did not obey the rules of the road!.
> I think all drivers should be made resit the exam after 5 years.
> With relation to going on my bike to work thats ok if you don't have to bring your kid to school as well.
> 
> The road is so dangerous for any driver never mind cyclist!


 
marnif - dont they have school buses for kids? Not being smart - I actually dont know, but I do see school buses in the mornings?


----------



## ronny78

If you were to cancel your car insurance I believe you will be refunded any outstanding amount left on the policy (say 6 months). Does this apply to Road Tax or is it just too bad if you paid for 12 months and then take your car off the road? I mean logically that is what anyone who is going to obey this law and not take a chance should do.

Realistically if the gardai do attempt to enforce this they will stop the young drivers and ask for their licences in the same way I notice near us now that they regularly stop lots of the young male drivers but leave older people (often the locals actually going home after a few pints !) drive on. Its inevitable that they will catch people this way and shouldn't take too long to run up lots of revenue in fines. I expect it is unlikely that the middle aged people with only provisional licences on the school run are going to be treated as suspicious enough to even ask.

As I've said earlier (before I am attacked for defending young male drivers on second provisional licences!) I agree with this new implementation of the rules, just not the timing.


----------



## ney001

truthseeker said:


> marnif - dont they have school buses for kids? Not being smart - I actually dont know, but I do see school buses in the mornings?



yeah god knows they have proven to be safe in the past few years!


----------



## sinbadsailor

Mely said:


> Why not, if you've paid for the car, paid for tax, insurance & petrol. Why doesnt it give you the right to drive it? (taking into account that lessons have been taking & theory test passed etc)



Cool, I think I'll buy a helicopter and only pay for a couple of lessons. That should see me right.

A test is just that, a test. It indicates you are *fully* qualified to operate the machinery. Let's not forget that. Could anyone just up and drive a truck, forklift etc?

THe basic principles are there, all the rest is personal and individual  feelings based on their own lives/situations. Which have no bearing on the cold facts.

Change is hard. We can't all complain about road deaths and then gripe when they make a change that has the potential to reduce road deaths. Take it on the chin!


----------



## muffinsda

briancbyrne said:


> Ive just spent 2 hours driving home from work via the M50 on a provisional licence without a fully licenced driver beside me and spent the time tuning in and out of current affairs programs and to say I'm quietly fuming at the developments is an understatement.



and what where you doing on a MOTORWAY on a provisional driving lisence?!
You are not  -and have never been-  allowed to drive on a motorway on a provisional lisence be it your 1st or 2nd or 3rd so you are already breaking the law.

On a different note, I do agree that's it's a bit hasty. It's a good thing to enforce this law and it has to be done sooner or later but they could do it in a more sensible way:

- no new provisional lisence holders (from a given date) to be allowed to drive on their own.

- existing provisional lisence holders be given 6 months to acquire a full one, after that same to apply to them.

I failed my driving test twice as well (2nd time my because one of my brake lights wasn't working). But instead of moaning I checked where there is a shortest waiting period, it was Loughrea at the time, so booked a test (within 4 months or so) in there, got a few lessons, went there for a day trip, and passed the test.
Surely if driving is so vital for someone they could go through an inconvenience like that for a day... You should have done so earlier, before taking a job so far away from home that requires you driving on motorway on a provisional lisence.


----------



## Mely

> A test is just that, a test. It indicates you are *fully* qualified to operate the machinery. Let's not forget that. Could anyone just up and drive a truck, forklift etc?



Well according to the new rules having actually passed the driving test we are now having to put another sticker on the car for a full 2 years.
For most people the best thing about passing the test is to be able to get rid of those L plate stickers.


----------



## Mely

> - no new provisional lisence holders (from a given date) to be allowed to drive on their own.
> 
> - existing provisional lisence holders be given 6 months to acquire a full one, after that same to apply to them.



This sounds like a plan, you should be in government lol

Dont you feel the timing was crazy when all those payrises came out also lol


----------



## marnif

truthseeker

If there was school buses - it would be great but there is none where I am.


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## Sn@kebite

If our poiticians can afford to give themselves payrises, then they can afford more test centres and testers.


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## Mely

my tax is up on the 31st of Oct. If i decide not to drive it, do i have to tax it. It was my first tax disc for 3months.

Also can anyone clarify that if you decide to drive the car without an experienced driver, are you covered under insurance if fully comp & had an accident. Touch wood never will.

some conflicting sides on the radio with Dempsey saying your not covered & insurance companies ringing to say contracts have not changed.
I cant get hold of my insurance company.


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## Muiris

truthseeker said:


> Why are you 'without choice'?
> Can you not take your driving test? Or use public transport?


I was in the same situation as Brianc afew years ago and had no choice but to continue driving as a provisional for a long time while waiting for my test date.As i work irregular hours using public transport was not an potion and not everyone,including myself is walking distance from bus and train stations anyway.When you are paying off a morgage,college loans etc...some people have no choice but to drive to work.


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## redchariot

JP1234 said:


> Can anyone of us with full licences honestly say they never once drove unaccompanied while on a provisional, I doubt it.



Oh yes I can put my hand on my heart and state that I have never once drove alone on a provisional licence.

Why, the simple reason is that I learned to drive up North, where the rules are the way they should be; none of this 2nd provisional licence drivers driving alone business. You wouldn't even consider driving without a fully licenced driver up there. It is about time we got our act together and followed suit.


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## Toby

"The Insurance Federation of Ireland confirmed that the change in law effecting second provisional licence holders will not change their insurance status." [broken link removed]

Can we trust this statement?

Als, a lot of people are wondering whats the story for people who are an more than 2 provisional licenses?  Is there something special about 2?


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## redchariot

Those people who are complaining that they can't take their children to school should take a long hard look at themselves. Do you really want to drive your kids around as an unproven driver. 

Not only are you putting you own life in danger; you are also putting their lives in danger; that is an absolute disgrace.


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## Killter

While I support the change I think it's absolutley crazy and typical of the idiots that run this country to just dump this on L drivers without properly addressing the waiting lists. Yes-in some areas its been reduced slightly but mainly in Dublin and surounds. There is more to the country than just Dublin Mr. Brennan.

I honestly just can't believe that someone has suggested using public transport! Now that has made me laugh....cheers! 

If you really need a test quickly, write yoursself a letter saying that you are a company offerin gyou a job and you need your licence. This _does_ work. I did myself and got a test within 5 weeks. I now have a nice pink licence.

Still laughing about the public transport comments....keep it up you beauties!!
best of luck Sn@kebite


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## Sammee

Mely said:


> Why not, if you've paid for the car, paid for tax, insurance & petrol. Why doesnt it give you the right to drive it? (taking into account that lessons have been taking & theory test passed etc)


 
I have read a book about heart surgery, and now I have my own knife, mask, gloves, and little dressing gowny thingy......lie down whilst I open you up.........


----------



## z103

- Custer's last stand
- Margaret Thatcher and the Poll tax
- Hitler and Stalingrad
- Tony Blair and the gulf war

All bad decisions, but the leaders stuck by their decision.
This shows good leadership.

Dempsey's doing a U-turn
[broken link removed]


----------



## Mely

Sammee said:


> I have read a book about heart surgery, and now I have my own knife, mask, gloves, and little dressing gowny thingy......lie down whilst I open you up.........



oh but you have to pass your theory first & stand in on a few operations lol


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## Slaphead

Sammee said:


> I have read a book about heart surgery, and now I have my own knife, mask, gloves, and little dressing gowny thingy......lie down whilst I open you up.........



To liken driving a car to feckin cardiac surgery is a bit rich. The holier than though attitude of some ppl continues.


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## Mely

Just heard on the Radio an elderly man in his late 60's has to get up at 6am in the morning, just so he can be in 2 cars so his children can drive to work. Isnt that just awful.

Those people could have been driving for months waiting for there test dates & may have been driving perfect all this time.

Does anyone feel that all L plate drivers are been put down & there is not much trust in us as drivers. I'm driving only a few months & not once have i caused any harm or obstruction to anyone. Abiding all the rules of the road except for having an experienced driver in the car. But i have no one.


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## redchariot

I know that there are plenty of good L-drivers out there, but there is no way to separate them from the inexperienced and/or bad ones. So unfortunately until you pass your test, you are going to have to be all tarred with the same brush and persumed to have not reached the required standard until you have proven otherwise by passing the test.

Do you not think it would be better to assume that all L-drivers are not to the required standard and enforce these rules and good drivers get caught up in this rather than assuming that they are probably fine because they have a provisional licence for 2 years and letting some poor drivers loose on the roads.

I know that there are plenty of qualified drivers out there who are not exactly perfect either, but the bottom line is that they have proven at some point or other that they have the minimum level of competency to drive on their own


----------



## redchariot

Bellerophon said:


> I couldn't agree more with Snakebite - what an idiotic post from redchariot!



Don't know how you could say that I am being idiotic. I am just stating the obvious and and how it should and is going to be. The L-drivers in this country have been getting away with breaking the law for too long. It is about time it was put to a stop. 

It is not like this came totally out of the blue, it has been talked about by the Road Safety Authority for at least the last year and it was only a matter of time before it came into play.


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## Mely

> The L-drivers in this country have been getting away with breaking the law for too long. It is about time it was put to a stop



As a Learner Driver I find this very insulting. I think alot of so called experienced drivers need also look at there own rule breaking.
I find because i have an L plate on my car alot of people seem to take advantage of that. 
Only last week I was entering the roundabout because i had right of way & no one was coming from my right, i was half way around & cars waiting to enter could see me clearly. I was indicating correctly & in my correct lane & all of a sudden a big lorry pulled out in front from the left. He just looked straight at me & smiled & blew me a kiss. I was absolutely fuming, i had to stop just in time before i would have crashed into him, i just hope that the car behind me didnt think it was my fault. No one beeped behind so hopefully they saw this maniac.

Another time a truck broke down at the entrance to a roundabout. There was no hazzard warning lights on. & the driver was nowhere to be seen. I was turning left. I couldnt see the oncoming traffic from the right, so i was waiting as you would until they moved off. It was only for a guy the in right lane beeped at me to let me go in front of him in order to go around the truck & go left on the roundabout.


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## shanegl

What's insulting about it? You are knowingly breaking the law.


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## Diziet

Mely said:


> As a Learner Driver I find this very insulting. I think alot of so called experienced drivers need also look at there own rule breaking.
> I find because i have an L plate on my car alot of people seem to take advantage of that.


 
Oh come on, you are an unqualified driver. Your driving ability, and that of all learner drivers, is completely unproven. That's what tests are for, and the fact that a test takes a while to arrange is no excuse to let anyone with a provisional license go out driving by themselves. The fact that there are examples of poor driving does not makes you a qualified driver I am afraid.

The numbers unfortunately show that inexperienced drivers have a lot of accidents.


----------



## Mely

shanegl said:


> What's insulting about it? You are knowingly breaking the law.



I dont think sensible people like myself or others are a concern because we drive alone, and dont think we ever have been. i think its the younger people who are driving the pimp my ride type cars with loud music with there pink playboy dice & covers or those drink drivers.

I have never said that i was a qualified driver, by god i'm only driving 3 months, but i certainly seem more qualified with the experience i have had so far compared to alot of drivers that are supposed to be qualified & making the right decisions on the road. I had 20 lessons before i even set foot in my own car & then had more lessons in my first car. If i'm forking out 30 euros an hour to an instructor, i'm depending on there judgement also & surely they would make the decision if your ready or not to drive on the roads. You only learn & experience more when your out & about in the car.

Sensible L Plate drivers are not the cause of the problem here, we may be breaking the law by driving alone but were not the cause of accidents or cause of obstructions.


----------



## rmelly

Does anyone the current status of this? From listening to news reports I have heard that there would be discretion, then there wouldn't be, that there would be a few months delay in implementing it, then this seems to have disappeared. 

I'm also concerned that the suggestion seems to be that the Gardai will treat 2nd provisional drivers the same as 1st and 3rd...As far as I can see they currently make no attempt to detect (and prosecute) any unaccompanied provisional drivers - will this continue? Are the responses from the Garda Siochana basically a fob off to the RSA? I heard on one radio report that prosecutions for driving unaccompanied on provisional licence is not in the top *4000 *offences before the District court. Will it remain so?


----------



## rmelly

Mely said:


> i certainly seem more qualified with the experience i have had so far compared to alot of drivers


 
Out of curiosity, what makes you think you are qualified to make judgment on your own driving skills or skills of other road users? 

Are you a driving instructor or tester? Have you sat and passed a driving test?



> not the cause of accidents or cause of obstructions.


 
I'd be interested in seeing the statistics that you base this assertion on.


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## Slaphead

rmelly said:


> Out of curiosity, what makes you think you are qualified to make judgment on your own driving skills or skills of other road users?



My brother passed his driving test 6 or 7 yrs ago, since then he's never owned a car and i'd say driven a few thousand miles in all. How he passed the test in the first was a mystery to me and himself to be fair. Im sure the above poster is a better driver than my fully qualified brother, and no im not an instructor etc.

Which is not the point either way, the majority agree with the law, problem is that in Ireland you literally cant get by without a licence. I've just moved back from sweden and there it wasnt a problem, until you got a licence (if you indeed bothered) there were other means.


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## collie

truthseeker said:


> I would.


 
Are you for real or just here to act the clown?

What cloud do you live on?


----------



## z103

> Do you suggest that those people "complaining" about not being able to take kids to school simply keep them at home while they wait 6 months for a test?



Most kids could probably walk to school, especially in cities. It's a disgrace to see so many of these obese kids being driven to school, clogging up the roads for normal people.

The exercise would do them some good.


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## Mely

rmelly said:


> Out of curiosity, what makes you think you are qualified to make judgment on your own driving skills


I have passed my Theory, i have done 20 + driving lessons. I know the rules of the road & whats right or wrong. I have not had any accidents or cause obstruction. I drive in the correct lanes at all times, i indicate in plenty of time. I actually stop at zebra crossing, i stop at red lights. Knowing what i have to do & when to do. Its just not signed off on the paper yet. I waiting for the test.



> or skills of other road users?



From seeing it right in front of my eyes. Guys thinking they can take advantage by blowing kisses & pulling out in front of you. People not indicating correctly, people not in correct lanes coming around roundabouts.



> I'd be interested in seeing the statistics that you base this assertion on.



I didnt say all Learner drivers, I said sensible learning drivers.


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## Mely

leghorn said:


> Most kids could probably walk to school, especially in cities. It's a disgrace to see so many of these obese kids being driven to school, clogging up the roads for normal people.
> 
> The exercise would do them some good.



I agree with your point of walking. We all had to do it. Not once was i ever driven to school. It was a 15min walk.

But are roads & streets safe anymore for young kids to walk to. We all know how scummy Ireland has got.


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## Sunny

This thread is getting stupid. I don't think anyone argues against the change in law but the way it was implemented is a joke. Appears nobody even told the guards about the changes.

As I mentioned in another post, I have a full license for ten years. When I was learning to drive, I drove on my own on my first provisional license. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of full license drivers posting on this thread did so as well but now that the law doesn't affect them, they are all for changing it on 5 days notice.

Also, people seem to think that because they have a certain colour license makes them better drivers than alot of the provisional license holders out there. And they think this because they did a test that contains exercises in reversing around corners and three point turns. There is no conclusive eveidence that provisional drivers are responsible for most of the accidents. There is evidence that *young* drivers are responsible for alot of them. So why do we allow teenagers to have full licenses and drive around in the early hours of the morning?

I say implement the new laws but the government better be in a position to provide tests on demand for exisiting provisonal license holders. Otherwise it is unfair. 

I would also support every driver on this thread being made sit a driving test again. Wonder how many of us would pass? I probably wouldn't after picking up 10 years bad habbits so maybe people can stop be so condesending in their attitude.


----------



## rmelly

Mely said:


> Its just not signed off on the paper yet. I waiting for the test.


 
no offence intended, but I don't consider you qualified. Come back to me when you have sat the test and have signoff based on a professional assessment of your abilities.



> I didnt say all Learner drivers, I said sensible learning drivers.


 
I didn't say you did and would still like to see the stats and a definition on what constitutes a 'sensible' learning driver.

Also, I don't regard someone who knowingly and repeatedly breaks the law as sensible (assuming you're on first provisional)



> I actually stop at zebra crossing


 
Since you raised it, can you explain you understanding of a zebra crossing: right of way, when to stop etc? This comment if taken literally would suggest you always stop at zebra crossings? Is that correct? Regardless of whether there is a pedestrian at it or using it?


----------



## musicfan

Banning *all* provisional licence holders from driving on their own is not the answer. 

Why not ensure that all learners have had at least 30 official driving lessons to ensure they have had plenty of practice and are confident behind the wheel.  I know people who have had 4 or 5 lessons and think they are great drivers.  Good driving comes from experience which cannot be gained after a couple of lessons.

We need to change drivers attitudes.  We need them to be aware that everytime they go out on the road that they are in charge of a potentially LETHAL WEAPON and that driving is DANGEROUS.  In recent weeks, there was a comment in a daily newspaper from a relative of a RTA victim.  They said the victim would not have driven on the road that day, if the government had said it was dangerous - therefore, it was the governments fault.  While I have every sympathy for the family, surely someone who has their own car on the road, does not need to be told that driving or speeding in adverse weather conditions is DANGEROUS.  Do we really need someone to tell us when driving conditions are unsafe.  If you are in charge of a car you should be able to use some cop on.

In recent weeks, I have had people beeping at me and flashing their headlights because I would not overtake a tractor on a bend, or while a car was approaching.  Ditto, when I would not drive into a yellow box on a junction.

Recently, I had to pull over on a dual carriage way during torrential rain because I could not see on front of me.  Yet, hundreds of cars continued to speed by me at 100km per hour or more.  Why???  They couldn't see what was on front of them......

We also need to make people aware of traffic lights!!! RED means stop!!!!!  The amount of times, while as a driver and as a pedestrian, that cars just keep going through red lights...........why????

Also, all cars should be fitted with indicators (oh sorry, my mistake they are!) - Perhaps people should be given lessons on how to turn them on and use them!!!!


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## Guest120

musicfan said:


> Why not ensure that all learners have had at least 30 official driving lessons to ensure they have had plenty of practice and are confident behind the wheel.


Whats an official driving lesson?

Anyone can instruct - you, me, the cats mother.


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## Sn@kebite

Bluetonic said:


> Whats an official driving lesson?
> 
> Anyone can instruct - you, me, the cats mother.


Probably means a certified driver. And then a log book signed by the driving school showing you have had lessons.


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## Ainhab

Hi ! 
 The timing for the announcement for new driving regulation would not have been more perfect than this bank holiday weekend. Mr Bertie Ahern took huge salary increment and has even turned down request by members not to take the rise. His pay rise makes him highest earning head of state in the entire EU PM/ president/Chancellor. 
 This would have embarked debate about him in weekends,raising concern for the quality of service given to the public, and forth coming budget. 
 Now public attention is hijacked to the issue of Driving regulation, there will be a debate in every house, confusion on how it will be implemented and fear in going on roads even for daily bread. 
 There is NO work done on reducing the Queue of getting the exam date. People who fail the test are left with no other alternative but to defy the law. 
Also Mr Neol Dempsy proved his in-competence in Shannon case, Driving regulation and situation of Dart in Dublin ... People have made a wrong choice, are now paying the price, perhaps there will be more in coming times.


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## chum

prov drivers cause 10% of accidents,remainder of accidents caused by who?


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## Sn@kebite

chum said:


> prov drivers cause 10% of accidents,remainder of accidents caused by who?


Exactly! - You're either a dangerous driver or not. If you are a dangerous driver and have a prov license, and you then get a full license, you do not magically become a safe driver.
Bad drivers are causing deaths, not prov drivers. - Not to mention terrible road signing!


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## chum

another point that needs to be nailed is this constant comparisons to stats in other countries ,road conditions , driving habits,testing standards are not universal. this current idea to nail every driver who breaks the law with no common sense approach or leniency smacks of a holier than thou attitude. every day in every court  house  in the country judges use their common sense when dispensing the law. in new york state when someone is convicted for drink driving they loose their licence but are given a 6 to 6 licence which allows them to drive to and from work  mon to fri no weekends. but to think that the untested  gay byrne would ever adopt a policy like this would be  thinking the impossible.  ther are no second chances if you break the driving laws in ireland anymore.


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## square1

The second provisional licence holder now having to be accompanied is unenforcable IMO - anyone who currently holds a first or third and subsequent licence has a notation printed on it - 999 - which means that they must be accompanied by a certified driver - the second provisional printed up until 30th will not have this notation - therefore unless the MTO are to issue new licences to all of these drivers it will not be a condition of their licence no matter who says what. I'm sure the minister wlll say this law is overrulling these notations but if a 2nd prov licence holder was brought up on charges on exisiting second licence I'd imagine it would be difficult to make them stick. Any solicitors on here who would know the law in relation to this?


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## Claire P xox

I am a provisional licened driver. im 18 and iv been driving for the last 11 months.
I have my own car which i use to drive to school, work, doctor appointments, orthadontist appointments, to get the shopping... so on and so forth. This crack down will come easy to people who live in cities and built up areas, but i live in the middle of no where with no public transport! How am i suppose to do these things! It would make sense to bring this law into action with people who are currrently applying for there provisional licence, rather than take the power to drive unaccompanied to people who have been doing so for the past couple of years because tthe guards didnt enforce it! i have a neighbour who is a single mother who has a provisional licence and has to drop her son to day care and then travel 20 mins to work. Should she be fined 1000 euro? She is already just scraping together what little money she has! Will she have to give up her job! The people who decided to bring this back so sudden arn't thinking about the West of Ireland and shoud improve the patethic public transport system and the waiting time to get your driving test substantially before bringing this in!!! I am not giving up my partime job because my parents have a life and jobs that they cant sit in my car when i drive to work and stay in my car for 9 hours. From tuesday onwards a big percentage of the 400,000 provisional licence holders are going to carry on driving and protest against the system and if we dont pay the fines are the government going to fill our already full prisons with innocent people? Thank you for reading


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## Claire P xox

jaybird said:


> There are some seriously judgemental people on this thread. My children are not obese for a start, and who exactly are these normal people you're talking about? Excuse us for driving our children places, how dare we get in your way!
> For your information, some of us live in areas that have been waiting 30 years for a new school. My child cannot get a place in school that you could walk to, or even cycle. Thanks to the wonderful government you're so proud of today, we have no choice but to drive miles to get to school. We have thousands of new houses but no facilities of any kind.There isn't even a playground closer than 10 miles away, or a library, or a swimming pool, or anything else for that matter.
> Perhaps my children and I should walk for 6-8 hours a day to various places, that would certainly stop them from becoming obese and keep us off "your" roads.
> Happy?


 
I totally agree with you! Plus i thought the gornment were trying to decrease the number of deaths of pedestrians on the road! you cant send a 10 year old girl off down a mountain road to school. in todays society she could be knocked down by a boy racer or even abducted!!! its ridiculous


----------



## Guest124

Gay Byrne should resign immediately. He said before that if he did not see things being done then he would go. Ah hold on wait a minute -the salary is nice -think I'll stay. This is a joke!


----------



## polly2000

Wouldn't the government be far better off regulating the driving instuctors so that everyone is taught right in the first place!!
Secondly have in place a short waiting period for the test!
But no typical Irish solution to an Irish problem,- just take the cars off the road


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## potnoodler

This clampdown may also encourage Irish people to adopt a healthier attitude towards carpooling , works very well in other countries outside of the one person one car mentatlity we have here.


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## jasconius

Below is a sample of learner driver restrictions in others countries:

_SWEDEN: drivers on a provisional licence must be supervised_
_ITALY: instructors must have held a licence for 10 years_
_SPAIN: private instruction completely banned_
_FRANCE: first-time drivers limited to 90km/h_
_NORTHERN IRELAND: Newly-qualified drivers must display an R sign and limited to 75km/h_
_GERMANY: provisional issued when test passed but if in an accident during first two years then test must be retaken_
_NEW ZEALAND: learners banned from driving between 10pm and 5am _

These are just a few of the restrictions - also, depending on the country, you must do a first aid course,learn to drive on a motorway, learn to drive at night - some also have a zero tolerance attitude to drink driving.

We have been far too lax in this country in our legislation and attitude towards driving for years. Suddenly,when someone puts the boot down (sic) we start panicking.

The issue of young people under the age of say 25 should have been tackled years ago when the car scrappage scheme ran for 3 or 4 years and the Celtic Tiger syndrome kicked in on the roads.

From Monday night next we will still not be moving up the road safety league table, judging by some of the restictions above - all we are doing here in Ireland is saying that provisonal holders must be accompanied by a licence holder for the second licence.

We do not have first aid tests, night driving tests etc. We are a First World country with Second World driving standards with little or no enforcement of these standards.

I will feel safer on Tuesday morning.


----------



## tinkerbell

I have to ask the question why does it appear that if a provisional driver is accompanied by a person who holds a full licence, suddenly they are a safer driver? Sorry but every day I have close shaves with qualified drivers, in their 30s, 40s and upwards, racing thro amber lights, cutting in dangerously from other lanes without indicating, etc. etc. If those same folk are directing learner drivers into their own bad habits, how can that lead to safer learning for young drivers? Also I know of teachers who are not at all teaching safe driving to learners so again, how does a learner get the correct teaching? Some of the schools I learnt in had awful teachers who preferred looking out the window at passerbys (especially females!) than watching and correcting my driving! Until the system is near perfect for people to learn in, then by all means bring in rigid rules but until then, it looks to me that in over 30+ years, things have remained terrible for learners to learn correctly, safely, etc. Can the current system cope with hundreds of thousands of provisional drivers applying to do the test? I bet not seeing it can't cope with lower numbers before that!!! What about a curfew on young drivers in the late hours when most of the terrible smashes occur?


----------



## stir crazy

jasconius said:


> Newly-qualified drivers must display an R sign and limited to 75km/h



So we are copying our closest neighbour as usual ? 



jasconius said:


> _NEW ZEALAND: learners banned from driving between 10pm and 5am _





tinkerbell said:


> What about a curfew on young drivers in the late hours when most of the terrible smashes occur?



I have driven to Dublin airport between these hours. In my opinion this is the safest time to be driving as theres almost noone else on the roads. Compare this to rush hour in Dublin where theres far more innocent people around to be affected by dangerous driving. I dont see the point. 

Also what if someone had a night shift job (a separate issue I know which will have people screaming that the learner shouldnt be on the roads) during hours when our inadequate public transport isnt running ? My point is if government is to be selective about the hours they should specify rush hour when theres more people around to be affected by pile ups and dangerous driving.


----------



## jasconius

Tinkerbell

Part of the reason we have 400k on provisionals is that a lot of them have failed or neglected to demonstrate that they are competent to drive.

When cars first came out, you had to have a man walk in front of the car with a flag ! Now you just fill out a form, pay your money and drive off at 100mph!

If a flight attendant went through the emergency routine and said ' Oh by the way, the pilot is on a six month provisional and has not yet applied for his test' what would your reaction be ?  Same as mine no doubt.

It is increasingly said on this site and others, that we have got too far ahead of ourselves with road manners and a carefree attitude to most things.


----------



## shesells

post deleted


----------



## z104

Shouldn't the question be- why do many people need to drive and drive with a provisional licence.
The simple matter of the fact is that people have no choice as public transport doesn't exist in this country.(outside Dublin)

sort out public transport first not penalise people becuase they need a form of transport to get to work.


----------



## bskinti

Original Question:
*Crackdown on Prov License Drivers - Will it stick?*

*Answer:* *No,* (and if it does Ireland has just got 400,000 +  new criminals/lawbreakers)


----------



## DublinTexas

It wont' stick because our goverment just caved in:

[broken link removed]

122,000 people on a 2nd provisional license now can drive arround until June 30, 2008.

Once again it has been proven that our goverment does not have the power to stick to what would be right for the country and caved in just because some people complain.

So still people failing their driving test can drive home...
So still people who don't have any real training can make our streets unsafe.

I suspected that this whole rule in the 1st place was only an attempt to get 400,000 + cars from the road to make the traffic appear lighter and with this new cave in I think I was right.


----------



## Guest120

DublinTexas said:


> I suspected that this whole rule in the 1st place was only an attempt to get 400,000 + cars from the road to make the traffic appear lighter and with this new cave in I think I was right.


What makes you think that there is a one to one relationship between provisional licenses and cars. Not everyone who has a provisional license owns a car. Your number of 400k+ cars is greatly exaggerated.


----------



## alpha

do provisional licence holders driving a moped still have to wear a tabard displaying "L" from 01/12/07? if so, where would one buy it?


----------



## DublinTexas

Bluetonic said:


> What makes you think that there is a one to one relationship between provisional licenses and cars. Not everyone who has a provisional license owns a car. Your number of 400k+ cars is greatly exaggerated.


 
Uh, there I am making a satirical remark and instead of someone making comments on the satirical element, the number is questioned.

Maybe that thought was right after all than.


----------



## Sn@kebite

DublinTexas said:


> .I suspected that this whole rule in the 1st place was only an attempt to get 400,000 + cars from the road to make the traffic appear lighter and with this new cave in I think I was right.


Erm...Why on earth would they want to take cars from the road?!  Would that not result in less revenue from driving offences? And less reason for the other cars to break the law, thus reducing revenue even more?

Gay Burne was nagging in Dempsey's ear and got him to install new legislation. Fair Enough! - However, in the ignorance of Irish politics, he forgot to look at the "Cons" of this legislation and caused pandemonium in one foul swoop!


----------



## rmelly

bskinti said:


> Original Question:
> *Crackdown on Prov License Drivers - Will it stick?*
> 
> *Answer:* *No,* (and if it does Ireland has just got 400,000 + new criminals/lawbreakers)


 
*Incorrect* as has been pointed out on this thread and the media repeatedly this week, it is currently an offence for drivers on any provisional licence other that a second one to drive unaccompanied. The number of drivers affected by this change is approx *120,000* NOT 400,000.


----------



## rmelly

DublinTexas said:


> It wont' stick because our goverment just caved in:
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> 122,000 people on a 2nd provisional license now can drive arround until June 30, 2008.
> 
> Once again it has been proven that our goverment does not have the power to stick to what would be right for the country and caved in just because some people complain.
> 
> So still people failing their driving test can drive home...
> So still people who don't have any real training can make our streets unsafe.
> 
> I suspected that this whole rule in the 1st place was only an attempt to get 400,000 + cars from the road to make the traffic appear lighter and with this new cave in I think I was right.


 
Why is it always the minority that takes precendence over the majority? Why should the lives of the 1.6 million licenced motorists by put at risk by the 400,000 unlicenced drivers on our roads?


----------



## DublinTexas

rmelly said:


> Why is it always the minority that takes precendence over the majority? Why should the lives of the 1.6 million licenced motorists by put at risk by the 400,000 unlicenced drivers on our roads?


 
That is exactly the point I'm making. The goverment put the problems of a few (122,000) over the wealfare of the many on the road. If these people are a problem as the NRA say they are (and as most of us experience on the street daily), than stick to what you anounce and don't cave in.



			
				rmelly said:
			
		

> Incorrect as has been pointed out on this thread and the media repeatedly this week, it is currently an offence for drivers on any provisional licence other that a second one to drive unaccompanied. The number of drivers affected by this change is approx 120,000 NOT 400,000.


 
That is true but than again, when is the last time a garda has controlled or even enforced this? I suspect that a lot of people just ignore this.

But in general let's face it, our road saftey is bad and in the typical way we do it, we blame everybody else. Even with 26 weeks waiting time people on a 2nd provision license had more than enough opportunity to take the test.

How can 40+% fail the test but than be allowed to drive home in their own car. 

How many time does the "L Plate/Baby on board" sticker at the car makes you wonder what kind of parent would drive arround their children on a provision license. 

People who can't drive (and those who fail the test obviously can't) should not be allowed on the street!

People who are learning to drive should at all times have a qualified driver with them. 

Someone finaly has the vision to address the driving nightmare and soon after the public outcry our "uhh.. trouble... people reacting" goverment caves in as usual.

Even if the change for the 2nd provisional license was short termed, let's face it, a 2nd provisional license is not there for you to drive arround for business etc, it's there so that you can continue learning to drive or because the waiting period was too long.


----------



## chum

just returned to ireland ,did test,got licence,other half has prov, i do not have two years exp therefore cannot accompany other half until other half passes test.


----------



## tinkerbell

No one can cure the countrys road problems by a sudden change in the law. The learning system in Ireland has been seriously at fault for over 30 years now - was it 1978/79 the amnesty was brought in because the system back then could not cope? How come three decades later we still have not improved a thing? One poster mentioned how would we like to fly with a pilot who had not passed his exams for competency? Of course we would not but then again, we would expect his teachers/school to be of a high standard, meeting certain generally accepted criteria, etc. We would not expect anyone just to be able to teach him to fly. Yet here, there has been no standards of teaching learner drivers, anyone can get a car and go and teach, without ever being inspected or tested themselves, unlike countries abroad. Teaching standards in some schools of motoring are very poor - it took me about 10/12 tries before I finally found one that taught me properly, and instilled the Rules of the Road in his methods. One used to ask me to accelerate to beat the amber light - in total breach of the Rules of the Road. Get the teaching standards right firstly, then make it mandatory for learners to take say 15/20 lessons or reach a safe standard. To say that a learner is a safer driver because someone who passed a test at least two years ago is sitting beside them again to me is a bit weird. If that qualified driver is not well acquainted with the Rules, etc. he could actually hinder rather than help. I got hit by a learner last year with his dad sitting beside him because his dad told him he had plenty of time to pull out at a stop sign. His dad misjudged what his son could do and result? Lovely smash into my car!! Get the groundwork right before hasty legislation can be brought in to make the roads safer. Everyday I meet people who passed tests years ago who don't know what the speed limit in a built up area is, why you don't hog the overtaking lane, etc. etc.  We all as drivers, full or provisional, have equal responsibility on the road to respect life


----------



## jazzhead

noel dempsey, ha ha ha ha


----------



## webtax

shesells said:


> New arrivals can get grants for cars if they claim they have been racially abused on public transport.



Can they really? Don't mean to doubt you but have never heard of this happening.


----------



## Furze

"" The rules applying to a new applicant's learner permit will stipulate that: 
· The holder must be accompanied by a driver who has had a full licence for at least two years; 
· The holder must have the permit for a minimum of 6 months of supervised practice before applying for a test. ""


Anyone shed light on - "a minimum of 6 months of supervised practice"


----------



## camlin90

DublinTexas, rmelly etc - care to produce statistics supporting your stance that provisional drivers cause more fatal accidents per head of population than fully licensed drivers?

Without such backup, your comments are just reminding me of the survey which found that almost all drivers thought they were better than the average.

My personal experience is that the majority of provisional drivers take professional tuition before going out on the road, and drive carefully to avoid attracting garda attention and/or an increase in their already hefty insurance premiums.

I will admit that I probably drove more carefully when I was on a provisional.

Glad to see common sense has prevailed in this fiasco - finally.
I hope the testing backlog will be cleared by 30/6/08 and tests will be available on demand by then... but I'll believe it when I see it.

We would all love to have a country where:
- all drivers are fully licensed
- it isn't possible for any cowboy to set up their own driving school
- testing actually focuses on important road skills
- driving under the influence of drink AND DRUGS is eliminated
- death trap roads are improved
- speed limits are set with regard to the condition of the road in question and not to reflect "classifications" or generate revenue (illustration at http://www.irishspeedtraps.com/SpeedLimits.aspx)

Sadly none of these goals will be achieved overnight. 
They are a legacy of years of underinvestment and incompetency... and the events of the past few days fail to convince me that the incompetency has been overcome.


----------



## shesells

webtax said:


> Can they really? Don't mean to doubt you but have never heard of this happening.


 
Yes. One of my best friends works for citizens advice and she struggled to buy her own car so was very frustrated by this!


----------



## alpha

do provisional licence holders driving a moped still have to wear a tabard displaying "L" from 01/12/07? if so, where would one buy it?


----------



## RainyDay

shesells said:


> New arrivals can get grants for cars if they claim they have been racially abused on public transport. Up to now all they had to do was get a provisional and off they went. Lessons not necessary.



Please post details of the grant scheme for new arrivals. Which public body pays this grant? How much can be paid?


----------



## SOM42

shesells said:


> Without wanting to seem racist, there certainly is a huge problem where I live. New arrivals can get grants for cars if they claim they have been racially abused on public transport.


 
This is urban myth! A friend works at the Dept Social and Family Affairs assures me this does not happen.


----------



## ubiquitous

> Originally Posted by shesells
> Without wanting to seem racist, there certainly is a huge problem where I live. New arrivals can get grants for cars if they claim they have been racially abused on public transport



You would really have to wonder if there is *anyone* naive enough to believe this claptrap?


----------



## shesells

post deleted


----------



## RainyDay

shesells said:


> My understanding is that it is at the discretion of the local welfare officer... I am open to correction but this is my information. Could people afford a car/petrol/tax/insurance on their social welfare benefits?


Can I suggest that you get more than 'an understanding' before you post a clear, definitive claim like this? It is worrying that your main basis for your claim of the existing of this scheme seems to be that they couldn't afford a car otherwise. Unless you have full details of their personal financial circumstances, you really shouldn't come to such conclusions.

If such a scheme did exist, it would be documented on http://www.citizensinformation.ie/ and other location. Community Welfare Officers are not going to hand over cash unless such schemes exist and are document.


----------



## ubiquitous

shesells said:


> My understanding is that it is at the discretion of the local welfare officer... .



I have a close relative who works as a community welfare officer in the Dublin region and can confirm for your information that there is not a shred of truth in what you say in relation to "car grants". Your claim that "One of my best friends works for citizens advice and she struggled to buy her own car so was very frustrated by this!" is  therefore obviously a bare-faced lie. Shame on you.

I'll leave it to the mods to decide whether in that context the remainder of your posts above constitute race-baiting.


----------



## MrMan

> Why is it always the minority that takes precendence over the majority? Why should the lives of the 1.6 million licenced motorists by put at risk by the 400,000 unlicenced drivers on our roads?



maybe he was actually protecting the lives of the 400,000 from the 1,600,000 licensed drivers who were over-confident on the road.



> I'll leave it to the mods to decide whether in that context the remainder of your posts above constitute race-baiting.



People get carried away with stories and it was possibly her friend that passed on the ill-informed info? I wouldn't say it was race baiting though.


----------



## kmelvin

*3rd Provisional License*

Hi, 

Everywhere I read relating to the change in the law (in particular with deferring the change until next year) - talks specifically about 2nd provisional license.

What about drivers on there 3rd provisional? Are they exempt from the new ruling or does it apply to all provisional drivers?

Thanks

K


----------



## Trent

Drivers on a third provisional were never allowed to drive unaccompanied in the first place, so the proposed change in legislation wouldn't have made any difference to them. 

Does that answer what you were looking to know?


----------



## Caveat

*Re: 3rd Provisional License*



kmelvin said:


> Hi,
> 
> Everywhere I read relating to the change in the law (in particular with deferring the change until next year) - talks specifically about 2nd provisional license.
> 
> What about drivers on there 3rd provisional? Are they exempt from the new ruling or does it apply to all provisional drivers?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> K


 
All provisional drivers as far as I know.


----------



## Sunny

*Re: 3rd Provisional License*



kmelvin said:


> Hi,
> 
> Everywhere I read relating to the change in the law (in particular with deferring the change until next year) - talks specifically about 2nd provisional license.
> 
> What about drivers on there 3rd provisional? Are they exempt from the new ruling or does it apply to all provisional drivers?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> K


 
Drivers on their 3rd provisional were never legally allowed to drive by themselves but people on their 2nd were. These are the ones that have been given until next June though in effect all provisional drivers probably have until next June to get a full license before they start enforcing the new requirements. You are still breaking the law though if you drive on your own on a third provisional.


----------



## Mel

BroadbandKen said:


> Gay Byrne should resign immediately. He said before that if he did not see things being done then he would go. Ah hold on wait a minute -the salary is nice -think I'll stay. This is a joke!


 
He was on the Last Word on Friday, and was asked (again) if he would sit the test on a point of principal, seeing as he simply bought his licence back in the day when that was how it was done. 
His reply was that he doesn't feel he needs to... what a glowing example.


----------



## Thrifty1

Claire P xox said:


> *I am a provisional licened driver. im 18 and iv been driving for the last 11 months.*


 
Have you sat a test yet? This is what i dont understand, i got my licence, took driving lessons, applied for my test, sat test and passed all within an 8 month period.
As far as i can see people holding a provisional licence dont bother applying for their test until they absolutely have to. I have a family member who is in the process of applying for her second PL, she hasnt ever applied to sit the test. She was hoping to get her second PL and now be allowed drive unaccompanied.

People blame waiting times, but these are the same people who are driving for years.

A lady was on the radio over the weekend complaining of the hardship she will suffer. She has been driving 10 years and sat the test 4 times. 4 TIMES IN 10 YEARS, thats hardly proactive, she cant blame waiting times, even with a 6 month waiting period she could have sat her test 20 times now.

She has proven herself INCOMPETENT to drive a car yet still continues to do so putting others and her self and kids at risk.
She said her son asked her will she breaking the law and she said "son i have to" - WHAT?????? she has been breaking it for the last 10 years but clearly didnt see it that way.


----------



## Mel

Over the weekend I was pondering on why exactly I haven't gotten around to doing my test. I personally have no worries about my driving, nor do my various licenced passengers, including my dad, who has been a HGV driver for 30 years or more. I had actually intended to do the test in the next few months regardless as I'd like to do a drive around France on hols next summer. 

The only conclusion I can come to is the ridiculously high failure rates being a complete and utter disincentive (the average pass rate is only 52%!?), as well as the urban myths that surround it - "the testers _have_ to fail a percentage of people" being the main one that I know of. 

Has Noel Dempsey or anyone else ever directly addressed this issue? It would be great to have someone make a statement on it one way or the other. 
But if 400,000 people need to sit the test by next June, then make that 600,000 for the 50% of resits. (My maths not being the best, this is probably more - for the 50% of the resits that fail .. etc)


----------



## Thrifty1

Mel said:


> Over the weekend I was pondering on why exactly I haven't gotten around to doing my test. I personally have no worries about my driving, nor do my various licenced passengers, including my dad, who has been a HGV driver for 30 years or more. I had actually intended to do the test in the next few months regardless as I'd like to do a drive around France on hols next summer.
> 
> The only conclusion I can come to is the ridiculously high failure rates being a complete and utter disincentive (the average pass rate is only 52%!?), as well as the urban myths that surround it - "the testers _have_ to fail a percentage of people" being the main one that I know of.
> 
> Has Noel Dempsey or anyone else ever directly addressed this issue? It would be great to have someone make a statement on it one way or the other.
> But if 400,000 people need to sit the test by next June, then make that 600,000 for the 50% of resits. (My maths not being the best, this is probably more - for the 50% of the resits that fail .. etc)


 
That is honestly the most pathetic excuse i have heard. You have not applied for YOUR test because the failure rates are so high.
If you are confident in yuor driving ability and have "no worries about your driving" then why not sit the test. Believe me the tester will not fail you if you are competent.
I suspect the reason failure rates are so high is because most people THINK they are great drivers, drive around for years getting bad habits ingrained in them and not bothering with lessons.

Testers do not have to fail a percentage of people, like you said it is an urban myth repeated by those that cant pass.


----------



## Sunny

I have been quiet supportive of provisional drivers on this thread but I have to admit that reading your reason for not doing the test does make me question if I was right to be. Using low pass rates as a reason not to do the test is pathetic sorry to say!


----------



## elefantfresh

I don't see the problem to be honest - if you fail your test you have just been told that you're not fit to drive and need to learn. Yet you can drive home?
A lady in the paper yesterday was complaining despite the fact that she had failed her test 4 times.  That to me says she is not a competant enough driver and should therefore not be allowed to drive without further tuition. How can someone be driving for 10 years without having passed a test?? Why are insurance companies backing this? Surely to goodness an unqualifed driver on his own is not covered?
The mind boggles.


----------



## michaelm

Ultimately it will stick as it is entirely reasonable and sensible for a would-be driver to have to meet a minimum standard.  As ever, it was poorly handled - another FF FUBAR.


----------



## Mel

It's not an excuse, it's just the only reason I can think of, because it wasn't a conscious decision to avoid doing a test, I just never did: up to now I've just been carrying on per government / garda enforced regulations. Luckily I don't have to answer to either of you  . Or anyone else till next June. 
I'll do the test before then if I get a slot.


----------



## kmelvin

Thanks for the help guys.


----------



## euroDilbert

Mel said:


> Over the weekend I was pondering on why exactly I haven't gotten around to doing my test. I personally have no worries about my driving,


Presumably neither does the lady who failed her test 4 times.

In many surveys I've seen, most people say that they rate their driving ability as "above average" - a statistical impossibility. 

This is why we have a driving test - it's not perfect, but is some form of objective measure of basic driving ability. 

In fact Mel, you may indeed be an excellent and careful driver - still no reason not to do the test though.


----------



## Mel

Absolutely not, I have never had a speeding ticket, points, crash, not so much as a parking ticket, but no reason not to have done it before now; but there was never a great need to, it was the accepted way of doing things. In the same way that drink-driving was perfectly acceptable in this country at one time. And smoking in the workplace / presence of children. And other things that are now illegal / totally unacceptable. 
My application is in however and I can't wait to see what date I might get. 
The biggest problem here has been the attempt to change a national culture in the space of 72 hours. If Dempsey hadn't admitted that his neck is 'on the block' (today's Independent), then I'd be inclined to think that it was a deliberate shock-tactic to make everyone wake up.


----------



## Thrifty1

I think it is beside the point that this was the way things were being done. It was always illegal to drive unaccompanied on first, third and subsequent licences, why the uproar when its now going to be enforced.

I can understand the upset of second PL holders, they should certaintly be allowed additional time but i cant see a valid reason why other PL holders should feel such indignation.
You know you have been breaking the law, you are an adult, the government has a right to expect you will abide by the law, they can see people are obviously not and are taking advantage of the situation and they were forced to take action.

You have nobody to blame but yourselves, this action was forced by a continous blatent disregard of the law.

I would imagine it wasnt so strictly enforced previously due to long waiting times for tests, but now they have realised that the majority of people have no intention of sitting the test and were using that as an excuse.


----------



## Mel

Thrifty1 said:


> I would imagine it wasnt so strictly enforced previously due to long waiting times for tests, but now they have realised that the majority of people have no intention of sitting the test and were using that as an excuse.


 
And how long will they be now? It will be a mess....


----------



## carpedeum

The Goverment are to blame for this mess.

The problem would be easily solved if the Goverment ensured that Provisional Drivers Licence holders sat their tests within a guaranteed period of receiving the licence e.g. six months. This would allow them to take driving lessons and upskill.

Driving test inspectors don't fail someone who deserves to pass! Drivers who fail their tests should _never_ be allowed to drive unaccompanied. Failure to pass a driving test is an indication of incompetency. This a basic fact that holders of repeat provisional drivers licences ignore for their own convenience! 

The argument that people who need cars to get to work, or for whatever other reason, should be allowed drive unaccompanied when unqualified to drive defies logic! They may believe that they have a right to make a judgement regarding their own safety, but, they have no right to make that judgement when it potentially affects the safety of other roadusers.

Many years ago, the inconvenience of having to commute to work on public transport motivated me as a school leaver to pass my driving test as soon as possible. My parents would not allow me drive unaccompanied and unqualified. I would never admit it then, but, they were right! The accelerator was my favourite pedal! While passing the test did not make me a good driver, preparing for and sitting the test did force me to embrace good driving habits and to become aware of the rules of the road and safe driving methods. The argument whether I have remained a good and safe driver at all times is a different argument. 

A dedicated highway patrol to compliment the penalty points system and more cameras would keep a lot of us drivers, both qualified and unqualified, in check. 

Many people standing on soapboxes on this issue need to look at their own driving. Drive on the M1 from Louth to Whitehall any morning and it is obvious that non-L-Plate drivers far outnumber L-Plate drivers in terms of dangerous driving - tailgating and lane weaving at high speed, undertaking on inside lanes, refusal to indicate when changing lanes, refusal to look in inside (passenger side) wing mirrors when moving to an inside lane, refusal to queue by forcing their way in front of drivers already queued on exit lanes e.g. the M50 turn-off, fog lights permanently on, using mobile phones (I saw one middle-aged guy in a black BMW 5 Series 07D typing on a Blackberry!) by hand when driving, general agressive bahaviour etc.


----------



## truthseeker

collie said:


> Are you for real or just here to act the clown?
> 
> What cloud do you live on?


 
Its points of view like this that truly add to a discussion.


----------



## square1

Well I'm out of the country at the moment - has there been any change in traffic on the roads this morning? Or is it business as usual as suspected? I know the 2nd prov drivers have been given until June but I presume the other 300k are in trouble (to include me when I come home!)


----------



## Mr2

carpedenm, if you apply for a test up on till two weeks a go you would get a test date within 6 months in most test centres. The problem is people do leave it until the last minute to apply and hence why the 2nd prov licence is only valid for a year. It's all down to being as nice as possible to people. 

It's not working, so things had to change. Every week there is people on the news/ papers complaining about the government not doing anything to save lives, now they do and there is still uproar. You have to start somewhere. 

I hope they do enforce this and the fact that all "L" drivers will have to have a fully licenced driver with them at all times. It might help the grid lock on the roads if we got rid of 1/3 of the people driving on the road.

Think about it 17 and 18 year olds have cars going to secondary school blocking up roads around towns, they hardly need cars do they? 

That man in the 07 BMW might only have a prov licence, you don't know. Most people that drive on motor ways that are "L" drivers don't carry plates to hide the fact there learner drivers. 

Zero tolerance. The only way.


----------



## Thrifty1

Mel said:


> And how long will they be now? It will be a mess....


 
This is hardly the governments fault.Its the fault of all the PL holders who havent applied for their test todate and are now in a panic to get it done.

If the PL was used correctly then the number applying for the test wouldnt be affected as those holding this licence would have already applied.
People seem to forget the object of the licence is to enable the holder to learn to drive, apply and sit the test within a 2 year period. Thats hardly unreasonable.
Used correctly it would realistically allow the holder to sit the test 3 times, with 6 month waiting periods, before it expires.

I do agree with most of Carpedeum's comments but i dont agree that it is the governments fault, these are adults we are talking about and they have to take some responsibility.

I also think its very difficult to comment on the driving skills of L and qualified drivers as, as MR2 said many drive without the plates. I wouldnt say that L drivers are less skilled or cause more accidents, all i would say is that they havent proven their competency.


----------



## Mel

If they create/allow a situation where 400,000 people suddenly apply for a driving test on one weekend, i'd have to say let them deal with the mess...


----------



## Sherman

In an ideal world *everyone* would have to re-sit the test every say ten years - this would most definitely raise driving standards and would, dare I say it, take an awful lot of appalling drivers off the roads. We should also make re-sitting the test mandatory for all offences carrying over a certain number of penalty points - two maybe?


----------



## Sn@kebite

Mel said:


> If they create/allow a situation where 400,000 people suddenly apply for a driving test on one weekend, i'd have to say let them deal with the mess...


In fairness to N. Dempsey, these 400,000 should have already applied as soon as they got the first or second Provisional.

I would class it as "foolish" to be granted any Prov. Lisence and not bother appying for the pratical driving test immediately afterward because all you would be doing is storing up trouble for youself, trouble such as this. From reading this thread, I come to the conclusion that some people are under the delusion that you can drive around on a Prov for the rest of your life...ehem. - If you got the full license you may even get more respect from the Gardai and/or other road users in times of adversity.


----------



## camlin90

If we're getting all provisionals off the road IMO the only reasonable way to handle it is to call for a test EVERYONE who has a provisional licence and owns a car (presumably data is easily available) - with notice being given several months in advance.

This will eliminate the problem of people not going forward for the test themselves, and also give time for preparation.

The tester will have to make a decision based on whether he/she believes the driver is safe enough to be allowed on the road on their own.
Any nit-picking involved in the current test structure will have to be sacrificed in favour of common sense.

If the person fails the test they are banned from driving and will have to take another test which needs to be available reasonably quickly.


----------



## aircobra19

Mel said:


> If they create/allow a situation where 400,000 people suddenly apply for a driving test on one weekend, i'd have to say let them deal with the mess...



Why would not have already applied?....


----------



## HighFlier

And when all that is done track down all the people who got the licence in the early 80's without sitting a test and make them do a test too.


----------



## Sn@kebite

HighFlier said:


> And when all that is done track down all the people who got the licence in the early 80's without sitting a test and make them do a test too.


I agree! - Most people on here who bought their licenses are really quick to judge and blame other people on Provs for the carnage on the roads.


----------



## aircobra19

Just retest everyone every 10yrs and do a refresh online theory test every 5yrs. 

Also sack who ever is in charge of signage, signals and road markings, and get some who knows what they are doing to redo them all.


----------



## z103

> Just retest everyone every 10yrs and do a refresh online theory test every 5yrs.



They can't even manage to test everyone once!

How about replacing all the roads with a rail system. That would be good! Make it free too.


----------



## Sn@kebite

Amazing how this thread completely died soon as Noel deferred the law enforcement. 

Guess we'll see this thread alive in late June...


----------



## webtax

certainly looks like it:
[broken link removed]

anyone remember a few years ago where the govt put off hiring a private testing company because some "surplus" staff from the dept of agriculture were going to do the job? 

[broken link removed]

makes for amusing reading....


----------



## Mel

There's not much more to say now really except wait and see if/how they will get everyone tested. Something tells me there will have to be another extension come June. My (2nd prov) licence is valid to August, but if I'm not tested (and passed) by then, I'll probably have to get one of those poxy learner permits. And take my chances at not being stopped by a guard somewhere.

Edited to add: Just checked the wait time on the RSA website; it is down to 11 weeks from 26 weeks when I last looked.  Big drop in a very short time.


----------



## Welfarite

truthseeker said:


> That makes perfect sense to me, whats the point of an inebriated fully licensed driver in the car with someone on a learners permit?


 

I think it's silly....what difference to the actual driving of the car can a fully licenced person sitting beside the provisional driver make....drunk or sober?


----------



## truthseeker

Welfarite said:


> I think it's silly....what difference to the actual driving of the car can a fully licenced person sitting beside the provisional driver make....drunk or sober?


 
Because as a learner driver you are supposedly 'under instruction' - I would expect anyone instructing to be sober.


----------



## Welfarite

The fact is that a full (pun intended!) driver is not a driving instructor and in my opinion, it is a silly rule.


----------



## truthseeker

Welfarite said:


> The fact is that a full (pun intended!) driver is not a driving instructor and in my opinion, it is a silly rule.


 
Are they not acting as a instructor to the learner driver in this case?

Otherwise all learner drivers would be expected to have a fully licensed driving instructor in the car until they pass their test - not such a bad idea either IMO.


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## SNOWBALL

I agree becuase i know many people who got the free licences in the 80's and never sat a test yet theybhave the full.


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## truthseeker

well there is no doubt that the new rules are not taking the 80s amnesty on full driving licenses into account - regardless of who has to be in the car with the learner driver, there are plenty of untested drivers with full licenses on the roads today.


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## Technologist

Welfarite said:


> I think it's silly....what difference to the actual driving of the car can a fully licenced person sitting beside the provisional driver make....drunk or sober?


Well, the fact that a responsible adult considered it safe to be in the same car as you indicates some confidence on one's ability.


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