# drowning in debt 2 incomes, 2 children



## blueskie

...

Thanks for any advice.


----------



## BazFitz

Write to MBNA and tell them that in future you only wish to discuss your account by letter.


----------



## ipad

45 pm for gym & 13 pm for prize bonds stands out straight away - neither are necessary. Can you cut those? Know its only small in the scheme of things but if every penny counts...


----------



## blueskie

thanks - I've been through the mill with MBNA - they kept calling and calling several times a day - it was embarrassing in work - I sent them a registered letter over 8 months ago offering a reduced payment of €150pm heard nothing, they would ring 4 times in a row without leaving a message. 

Finally they sent a letter saying "now is your last chance to contact us and try to review your situation and come to an agreement on what you can afford - please pay €36 (or some random low amount) and call us on this number".

So tbh I hadn't paid in about 3 months (had been waiting for MABS though so was trying to deal) and thought well I'll ring them on the different number - was on the phone to them for over an hour and got the impression I was having a conversation with 2 people (ie someone was prompting the person I was talking to who was a bit clueless about financials suggesting I should be entitled to a medical card as my kids were at the doctor 4 times that month between them - obviously not the case when we're both earning !) - however it was pointless and they took all my details and then said yes you can afford to pay the minimum. They said they wouldn't confirm in writing and would reinstate my number for contact only if I didn't pay. They also said that the letter I received meant nothing and I had to pay €100 immediately by laser and then the minimum payment from then on. They said they would capitalise the arrears but would still not confirm in writing.

I then got the usual statement (after I paid) saying I was 3+ months in arrears and when I rang I got another lecture from someone saying that if I didn't pay they would "sell the debt to debt collectors" and since then they now ring 2 days before the agreed payment date.

Even I send another letter saying not to contact me on my phone they'll still ring from "unknown" and it would be hard to prove it's not them. They're unreal.


----------



## blueskie

ipad said:


> 45 pm for gym & 13 pm for prize bonds stands out straight away - neither are necessary. Can you cut those? Know its only small in the scheme of things but if every penny counts...


 
yeah you're right I needed to hear it !


----------



## ontour

blueskie said:


> I need to move my phone asap but tbh couldn't even afford the spare e70 to buy a phone with a prepay plan.



You can get a sim from the likes of Tesco mobile for free if you already have the phone, it is not necessary to buy a new phone if you have one that is unlocked or can be unlocked.


----------



## blueskie

I thought that but would vodafone lock it when I cancel with them ? Plus prob need to be on O2 as that's who husband is with - free texts ?


----------



## txirimiri

Also a family of two adults and two kids with 5570 incoming a month. We don't thank god have anything like your debt burden but between mortgage and childcare, we are paying out almost 4000 a month, so not a huge amount of disposable income.

A couple of things that strike me

Gas 140 pm - this seems very high as a annual average. Can you change supplier? Or look at your heating controls again - is it timer or temperature controlled? We just got a new heating control system (subsidised by a SEIA grant) and it is making a big difference to the amount and how we use the heating

Electricity 70 pm - seems reasonable but you can reduce it by up to 14% by changing to Bord Gas, paying by direct debit and being an existing customer

Gym 45 pm - cancel it straight away. Lots of ways to exercise outdoors or indeed in front of a DVD if its raining 

Get rid of prize bonds

UPC 130pm - we have a TV, broadband and phone package (which includes free calls at certain times) for 70. Switch packages immediately.

Life assurance 110 - you should be able to get a better deal on this. My outstanding mortgage is not hugely smaller than yours and our life insurance costs 33pm. Bare bones - mortgage paid if we die, nothing for illness et al.

Saving say 10% on energy costs, cutting gym and prize bonds, changing UPC package and halving life insurance saves you nearly 200 a month. Add another 50 for a change in phone package and you are beginning to have an emergency fund for doctors bills, Christmas presents, clothes etc

What about childcare? 1675 is a lot for 2 children - are they both pre-schoolers? Depending on where you are, there may be cheaper options. If in a creche, can you negotiate a discount? Or look into a childminder (in their own home)? Although if the kids are happy where they are, I can understand you would be loathe to make a change unless absolutely necessary.

Could you cycle to work? Only use mobiles in an emergency - texts for all routine communication and landline or Skype for chats.

Check out the money matters thread on rollercoaster.ie - a more frugal set of people I have never come across! Fantastic money saving tips on everything from grocery shopping to energy use to psychological tricks to stop you spending money (my favourite being freezing your credit card in a big block of ice - defrostable in emergencies but you'd think twice about doing it for an on-line impulse buy!)

Also for winter clothes for the kids, check out jumbletown.ie - lots of people giving away clothes and toys in good condition for free

HTH


----------



## blueskie

thanks for your reply - let me address some of the points !

Gas - yes it is high and I know for a fact this is from having it on at night - reason ?  No curtains upstairs - so to get the kids to sleep/keep them to sleep.  Desperate isn't it but I can't even afford curtain poles upstairs & husband doesn't do DIY so have to pay for both.  This is where it gets depressing when you can't afford basics like that.

ESB - tempted to move but have heard it's a bit of hassle ?  Is Airtricity cheaper anyone know ?  Also is it going to all just level out in the longrun ?  I thought I saw smallprint saying the good rates only last a year plus I have stories of friends who got massive last bills from old suppliers.

Gym & prizebonds - point taken - I never win anything anyway ! (without the gym though I literally will have no life at all !)

Childcare - this includes seperate pre-school fee - they're not in a creche but very happy so no point in changing for a small saving.

Cycling - love to but way too far from work to cycle unfortunately. 

Life assurance - as they're tied to 2 mortgages and based on our ages a few years ago I'm fairly sure it would be more expensive to move.

Jumbletown.ie - thanks for the tip ! Already read rollercoaster it's great too.


----------



## dubrov

Switching Electricity suppliers has been made extremely easy.
As far as I remember it just involes getting your MPRN number from your last bill and entering your address details. Even if it was a bit of hassle, surely it is still worth it given your situation.

I'd say your gas bill is probably double what it should be. Putting up curtain poles should not be that expensive and it's pretty basic DIY. Maybe you could get a friend to help.

 The UPC package of 130pm sounds crazy. You must have the top package of everything. Ae you sure it is not for two months?

I don't know what other posters think but given your credit rating sounds like it is already damaged, you might be better off only paying the highest interest rate lenders first  Start with the crerdit cards and work your way through the others


----------



## blueskie

...


----------



## blueskie

...


----------



## Guest110

Your VHI dental plan seems very high to me. My plan is a basic package and it costs me about 5 euro a month for 1 person. From that I am only allowed to makes claims up to no more than the value of 1000 Euro a year. I would advise you to check the policy and see what the is the maximum value amount you can claim per year.

You could also just use the normal aerial and have the basic TV service, you could remove UPC from the equation. If you wanted more channels you could get a dish and install it and get the other channels. 


When things are tight - if you cant measure it - you cant manage it. I would also make a suggestion that you ring the Gas and ESB company and ask them to install meters. That way you have to get a card and top up. It makes you more conscious of how you are using your energy. These meters are not on a higher rate than the normal bill pay customers. You could argue the case with them about payments and they might be able to give you the meters free of charge.

Cancel the BB


----------



## blueskie

Hi - VHI is over 8 months I think as it was a slow start with the direct debit - thanks though for pointing it out.


----------



## sustanon

something is missing, your outgoings come to 5472, and incoming is 5950. there is 478 missing. what's the deal with the other apartment, I don't understand the 550 & rent = 820. 
is there income here or more expense?


----------



## niceoneted

I had also calculated the incoming and outgoings and saw the difference of 478 and u have extra from the second property of 265 ( I am taking it that you are gettting rent of 830 and your paymetns are 555 but reading again I think this is wrong are you paying 555 and getting rent of 265 and thus paymetns to mortgage are 820????) . 

Firstly start a spending diary - every thing that is spend is to be written down and that is everything be it .50c of 50 euro. 

Gym has got to go for now, get out walking or do exercise in the house, it doesn't mean you cannot take it up again but it just has to go for now. 

Prixe bonds also for the time being to go. 

GAS and ESB is far to high. esp in the summer months. Invest in nice kiddies hot water bottles for the kids and nice all in one PJ's. Saw some lovely stripped fleece blankets reduced in home store and more today which are great for throwing over u while watching TV/working on the pc or while in bed as an additional layer - think they were down to 4.50 euro. 
You will have to invest in curtains it will save you in the long run. You can pick some cheap ones up. Also curtain poles and surely you know someone that can put them up for you as a favour or for a small few bob. 

Mobile bills both big. You could switch to vodafone simple basic which is 20 euro. I switched 3 months ago and am kicking myself as I was paying up on 60/70 euro now only 20-25. Get to know those that are not on your network and use the webtext facility to tect them - you get 600 free per month. 

I would seriously look in to alternative childcare. you may get someone in there own home for about 300 a week for the two which will save the guts of 500 euro. 

When does the interest only period end on the mortgage and when will you be finished paying the arrears on the mortgage??

I'll go through your post again in relation to the cards and post back but the above is just for starters.

With some of the savings listed in my post esp the larger ones you would be able to clear the Tesco and Ulster Bank cc's in no time. 
Seeing as you are having so much hassle with MBNA would there be any possibility of approaching the Credit Union and seeing if they will double you loan extend the term and you could clear MBNA. 
Can you also edit your OP to give the terms remaining on the loans and if you have interest rates for the CC's.
You need to get back on to MABS and get them to write to the CC's company esp MBNA and get the interest frozen. Even if it takes 4-6 weeks to get an appointment it is important and will save you in the long run. 
CUT up the cc's.


----------



## alaskaonline

Net income: 3400 (me), 2250 (him) = 5650
Child allowance (2 kids) = 300

Mortgage = 630 (interest only for now)
Childcare = 1675 pm 
car lease = 260 pm (refinanced with lender) balance 8k approx
MBNA CC = 260 pm (refused to reduce payment said we could afford it) balance 8k approx
Halifax CC = 260pm (converted to loan had to make min. payments) balance 8k approx
Tesco CC = 50pm balance 1700 approx
Ulster Bank CC = 50pm balance 1700 approx
Credit Union = 175pm (refinanced with lender) balance 8k approx
BofI loan = 390pm (refinance of overdrafts & loan) balance 18k approx
gym = 45pm - not a necessity
petrol = 100pm
groceries = 400pm (family of 4 inc. nappies etc. and we bring lunch into work) - where do you shop? for a family of four I think this is alright but I find I save money by not using just one supermarket.
house insurance = 35pm
life assurance = 110pm (tied to mortgages)
quinn healthcare = 170pm for all 4 (needed at the moment )
VHI dental plan = 56 pm for 2 (also needed) - very high! 672€ p.a. is crazy.
Prizebonds = 13pm - not a necessity
Vodafone = 100pm (too much i know need to move to prepay O2) - why do you have vodafone & o2? there are plenty of better options out there at the moment. Shop online for ideas!
O2 = 50pm billpay
bus ticket = 80pm (will prob take up work plan from Jan) - why are you using the bus if you can't get rid of the car? if only one person uses the car to get to work, would car pooling be an option?
Mortgage arrears = 290pm 
ESB = 70pm - same here, for the summer months, way too high. I changed to Bord Gais, you just did too right? Felt there was a bit of a saving alright.
Gas = 140pm - this is way too high. as others stated, it's the summer. I use gas for heating the water up and my bill ran for the last 2 months to 30€ = 15 p.m. (and I like my hot showers so don't think I am being needy greedy)
UPC = 63pm - I pay 50€ for internet, phone and tv (basic) - ring them up and check for latest offers

I noticed you have an awful lot of CCs and with quite high amounts to pay off too. Would it be an option to get one large loan, rather than lots of "smaller" ones? It's still the same amount plus a bit more interest if you, let's say spread it over 5 or 10  years. On the plus side, you have a better overview of your finances (I would get confused with all those different CCs) AND your monthly payment is reduced because it's stretched into a couple of years.

Also you stated due to health reasons one of ye couldn't work. Did you use the MED Form to claim back those expenses?

If you're in the Union, you can get Tax Credits for it. It's only a small amount but better than nothing.


----------



## truthseeker

Could you sell the car and buy something cheaper (realise this may not be an option if selling it doesnt cover outstanding HP agreement).

I notice you dont mention car tax/insurance costs - how high are these?

Gas is way way too high. About curtains - when I moved into my place I couldnt afford anything nice in terms of curtains and all associated curtain poles etc.... SO I bought the cheapest curtains possible - check ebay, hickeys sale basket etc... And I got curtain poles from a friend who had moved and was getting rid of her curtain poles for new ones. As far as DIY goes it was a matter of borrowing a drill and asking a male friend to put them up. They were ugly curtains - but they kept the heat in and did the job til I replaced them a year or so later. You may well get curtains and poles from jumbletown or free trade ireland - its absolutely imperative you do this - your gas bills are madness and keeping the gas heating overnight is so expensive.

Do a clean out at home and take your stuff to a car boot sale - a friend did this last year and made 300 euro on her junk.

Get rid of the gym membership and use the 45 quid to buy a secondhand bike  - use the bike for exercise and to make short trips you would otherwise have used the car for.

Get rid of the prize bonds and get the mobile phones onto cheaper packages.

Childcare - surely there is a cheaper option here?

Claim back anything you are entitled to like MED1, bin charges etc...


----------



## michaelm

blueskie said:


> quinn healthcare = 170pm for all 4 (needed at the moment )


Might you consider a cheaper health plan?  For example, Aviva's Level1 Plan would cost you €93/month, freeing up €77/month.

Your mobile bills look silly (especially given your financial position).  I put €20/month into my wife's Vdodafone pay-as-you-go (so she gets free calls & texts to Vodafone users) and €10 ever six months into mine.  I top mine up by transfering unused credit from hers onto mine online.  Granted we're not heavy users of the mobiles but it is possible to run mobiles very cheaply.


----------



## annR

Now is the time to do the curtains before coming into the winter.  You really have to sort that even if it means hanging them from a few nails hammered into the wall! Do you have any relatives / neighbours who would put up some curtain poles for you?  You could buy poles and curtains for the amount you are spending on gas no problem.  I recently got nice full length curtains for the living room bay window for e50 in Hickeys (half price!).  Check out the ends baskets from the fabric shops as well, there's no shortage of lengths of material.  

With decent curtains and bundled up in bed with good jammys and plenty of blankies (not expensive) your kids will be fine.  NO need to have heat on at night save it for when the weather is *really cold*.

In terms of kids clothes, there is so much second hand childrens clothes out there I don't know how the shops sell anything new.  Have a trawl around the charity shops.  Look in the buy and sell section of rollercoaster and post up something about wanting second hand kids clothes and/or curtains, you will get something.


----------



## txirimiri

_Life assurance - as they're tied to 2 mortgages and based on our ages a few years ago I'm fairly sure it would be more expensive to move._

Don't  be sure until you check it out. I'd be surprised if it were impossible to find a better deal. I have got good deals through brokers - call Aaran insurances in Harolds Cross and Goggins (also in South Dublin, can't remember where). They can also sometimes do a good deal if you have all your insurance products with them (car, house, mortgage protection)

Agree with the others on the gas - cheap curtains and poles (or free from Jumble Town), wooly sleep suits and blankets for the kids. It is roasting at the minute, haven't switched on my heating yet this autumn and we have no curtains either in our kids room (got as far as blinds to block out the light and ran out of money .... although we do have curtain poles up!)


----------



## number7

Childcare is huge.

OK heres a suggestion, get an au pair for a year, approx €600 a month instead of the €1675 you now pay. difference €1075pm.

Benifits, 
Help around the house with housework.
A couple of nights babysitting per week.
Company in the house for both the children and you and your husband.
More free time for GYM
Cash to clear debts, 1 year €12900


Negatives
You do have to give up some privacy
transport for the au pair depending on your location.
Is it suitable for your kids considering your kids ages, imo it often works best when the kids are school going as it also allows the au pair a lot of free time


----------



## Duracell290

Have you thought about employing an Au Pair, instead of childcare. Their salary is a lot less and most have to do daily chores around the house. A friend of main gets them on 6 month contracts and she swears by them, both for her and her children. Check out Au Pairs Ireland for details.


----------



## txirimiri

Duracell290 said:


> Have you thought about employing an Au Pair, instead of childcare. Their salary is a lot less and most have to do daily chores around the house. A friend of main gets them on 6 month contracts and she swears by them, both for her and her children. Check out Au Pairs Ireland for details.


 

Au pairs can only work a max of 20 hours a week - they are therefore only really suitable for school age kids who need minding for a few hours in the afternoon. OP says she has pre-school costs so her kids are obviously very small. As a parent of smallies, I'd also be pretty reluctant to leave under 5's all day long with an inexperienced teenager without much English, which is what Au Pair's are in general, even if I could come to an under-the-table agreement with them to work longer hours.


----------



## alaskaonline

slightly off the topic but still referring to the last two posts ( was quicker):

If you browse around (Au Pair Agencies) - "The Duties of an Au Pair: An Au Pair works six hours a day, five days a week, usually with weekends free. 
He/she will look after your children and do light housework related to the children
(i.e., take the children to school, to the park, prepare the children’s meals, change 
the children’s nappies, clean the children’s room and play with them.
In addition to the 30 hours a week the Au Pair would baby-sit once or twice a week 
at night if the parents want to go out."

Just to clear this up in case you would like to go down that route. It's definitely a great way to save money oppose to Creches but it doesn't bring a free/ cheap housekeeper! Plus there are advantages with Creches/ Pre-Schools too so shopping around and comparing is the main thing right now.


----------



## csirl

> Mortgage = 630 (interest only for now)


 


> House value = 250k, mortgage 195k
> Apartment value = 200k (prob optimistic guesstimate), mortgage 235k, interest only, repayments = 555pm & rent = 820pm (also owe mgmt company e2500 can't pay as excess going on mortgage arrears)


 
Two properties and only paying interest only on the mortgages. This is too risky in my opinion, particularly as you've no margin for error in your finances. If your valuations are correct, you could sell both and walk away roughly even or a small profit. This is something you need to seriously think about.


----------



## Maynooth

You should definitely sell your main property and use the remainder to pay off your debts.


----------



## demoivre

blueskie said:


> thanks - I've been through the mill with MBNA - they kept calling and calling several times a day - it was embarrassing in work - I sent them a registered letter over 8 months ago offering a reduced payment of €150pm heard nothing, they would ring 4 times in a row without leaving a message.



It's illegal for a lender to  cause you this kind of hassle.



> quinn healthcare = 170pm for all 4 (needed at the moment )



With Quinn healthcare people on the same policy can have different levels of cover.


----------



## BazFitz

demoivre said:


> It's illegal for a lender to cause you this kind of hassle.
> 
> 
> 
> With Quinn healthcare people on the same policy can have different levels of cover.


 
Great post.  Credit card providers regularly fall foul of Subsection 1 (a).

Perhaps that's one of the reasons they call from "private numbers"?  Who should one report the credit card providers to?


----------



## blueskie

HI thanks for all the replies ! 

Just very quickly I think the income gap is from in my original budget I included about e200 per week for food/groceries - reality was we ended up needing about that much for various doctor's trips (e55 a pop plus antibiotics) - the kids had a bad run for a few months.

The profit from mortgage income is going on arrears for the apartment mortgage - about e1300 left (e290 per month) - when they're cleared we might have a bit more to clear arrears.

ESB - changed over last night thanks for the tips !

GYm - great idea to just buy a bike might do that as we do need one (when I have the cash)

Au pair - would love one but no room at all (3 bed semi totally full)

Childcare- it's 75 per day for 2 children - long hours so it's not that expensive all things considered & a further 75pm for montessori.

Night heat - I know I know I'll have to try !

Vodafone etc - I need to get on this asap but also as I never go out anymore I'm a bit of a text fiend as it's the only way I keep in contact with some friends who are in similar positions (no cash no time)

VHI dental - I don't know why it's so expensive - thought I was getting a good plan

Med1 - yes claimed everything due for those years - all gone !

Car - get the bus to work as have no parking space - need the car to see elderly grandparents - no option.

Thanks for all the replies - food for thought.


----------



## missdaisy

Just re being a text fiend would you and your friends consider going on same network? I am on meteor. I buy €20 credit per month and text and ring all other people on meteor network for free.


----------



## Panacea

Did you check how much you have saved to date in prize bonds that you can redeem ? 

If you have been saving €13 per month for a few years it may help to clear some of the smaller CC debts.

EDIT
Do you really need to have the VHI dental plan for the next couple of years? Would it be feasible to drop the dental plan for the next two years?

Not sure if its still the case but you used to get a higher discount if you had your electricity and gas with bord gas and paid both by direct debit.


----------



## Frank

Vodafone give you 600 txts a month for free from the website.

It is actually much easier and quicker to type a txt on the computer too.


----------



## june

put the kids to bed with an extra blanket and a hot water bottle and save on gas


----------



## BazFitz

june said:


> put the kids to bed with an extra blanket and a hot water bottle and save on gas


 
That suggestion is neither helpful nor funny.

You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## fraggle

BazFitz said:


> That suggestion is neither helpful nor funny.
> 
> You should be ashamed of yourself.



I see nothing wrong with it. What is your problem with that statement. It's what I do, and I have no need to be saving money at the moment.


----------



## BazFitz

It's up there with "if you're cold, turn off the heat and wear two jumpers".

Unhelpful, patronising, condescending and ridiculous.


----------



## niceoneted

I am on a good income but yet would put on an extra jumper/fleece and throw a fleece blanket over me to keep me warm rather than turn up heat. I tend to have heat on longer at a lower temp. It keeps the chill out of house. Having too much heat is not good for you imo.


----------



## truthseeker

fraggle said:


> I see nothing wrong with it.


 
I dont see anything wrong with it either. When I was growing up we didnt have central heating, we had a coal fire going in the sitting room and the kitchen would be warm from cooking. The rest of the house was not heated. The bedrooms were freezing in winter and we went to bed in PJs, socks, a hat and brought a hot water bottle. I have fond memories of the bedclothes being so heavy mid winter that it was hard to turn over!!


----------



## orka

BazFitz said:


> It's up there with "if you're cold, turn off the heat and wear two jumpers".
> 
> Unhelpful, patronising, condescending and ridiculous.


It's really not - it's a very practical suggestion.  I'm with other posters - if it's cold, I throw a blanket over the duvet.  It would never occur to me to have the heating on through the night.  OP - if the night heat is on just because of lack of curtains, you will have saved yourself the cost after a few months if you invest in curtains - and they don't have to be expensive - or even attractive!  I'm sure you could get some curtains and a pole fairly cheaply if you are not fussy about what they look like.


----------



## Black Sheep

Looking at the figures presented it seems almost one full salary is going out to cover Childcare and bus fares so I'm wondering does it pay the second earner to continue working. With the transfer of the married tax credit and homemakers tax credit to the working spouse there is very little difference in the take home pay.

Could that gap be made up by caring for another child in the home. Some savings may be made by having more time to shop around for better value in food and other items and doing more home cooking


----------



## lucozade

Just a suggestion in relation to your UPC bill. Mine was 55 euro's per month. This was for digital and broadband. I thought I'd ring them today and see if I could get it reduced. I got through to the billing department. They were going to knock 5 euro a month off. I said I'd have to cancel it then. They transferred me to their "Retentions Department". They offered me a deal of 31 euro per month but I'd be in a new 12 month contract. I was delighted saving 24 euro per month . If you don't ask....

Oh the phone bill sounds expensive. I'm with Meteor bill pay 20 euro per month 200 mins anytime any network and 200 texts. I had to sign a 18 month contract but so what. The other deals people have mentioned are probably better again...


----------



## Bigbird

in relation to the curtains... well just google 'hanging curtain poles' and you will see loads and loads of lessons on sites such as utube on how to hang curtain poles.  it's foolproof honestly.  it shows you how to work out where studs are and what rawl plugs to buy depending on what type of wall you have (they'll show you the different types of walls that are out there too). surely you can borrow a drill from someone. i've hung shelves, curtain poles, paintings, and shower doors by following these diy instructions and  the best thing is that they're free.  there's an irish DIY guy who features on rte's four live (his name escapes me sorry) and he's also on utube.  if i can do it then anyone can.  it's saved me a fortune too.  

also loads of shops such as dunnes and shaws have curtains reduced in sale.  same with home focus.  i got a pair recently (that i was keeping my eyes on for some time) that were reduced from 200 to 50 euro. 

best of luck.

bb


----------



## glasto

I have genuinely never put the heating on at night in my life, I didn't even know people did this! Although I do love my electric blanket!


----------



## deeheg

Hi Blueskie,

I know its much later, but i just heard of a great thing, a girl i know needed handy work done in house no money, so she opted to mind this couples kids for weekend and the husband did the bits she needed doing, tit for tat, maybe you could do something like that to get curtains up.

45 per month, is not huge on gym and I am with you there, I am in the horrors and without my swim etc I dont know how i would cope, so try hold on to that,

we both changed to meteor, €20 per month free calls meteor to meteor and then€20 to spend on others, and I think at moment they are giving another €20 when you buy so thats good.

For christmas I am giving the rest of family, babysitting vouchers or dinner vouchers in my house! and you know thats a great present!! best of luck hope this get better for you


----------

