# Sunday Times article on the Irish economy - a fair assessment?



## MelF (30 Mar 2009)

Read this in yesterdays Sunday Times 'The Bad Luck of the Irish' on the state of our economy at the mo. Very Scary reading but how much of it is a fair assessment?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/t...article5980940.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1


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## tiger (30 Mar 2009)

It is scary reading and deliberately goes for shock value, starting with a high profile suicide.
Unfortunately on balance, I'm not sure that it's unfair.  I think we're only approaching the end of the beginning, and we'll only have a good idea of how bad it's going to get by the end of this year.


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## Chocks away (30 Mar 2009)

Does anyone seriously believe the Times apart from those Little Britains that have yet to learn the glory days of the empire are well and truly over. A schoolboy could have written this. Get a load of figures, find out that your girlfriend secretly fancies that Irish fella in her office, don't look too closely at the man-in-the-mirror when shaving and fire off a salvo to your inane sub-ed. The Times has gone tabloid in more ways than one - although they use the euphemism 'compact'. Even so it still can't get within grasp of the Sun or Daily Mail. Just as the Brits rooked Australia, an Australian is now rooking them.


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## Firefly (30 Mar 2009)

Tripe....

"The Celtic tiger that transformed a beer-soaked backwater...."

Says it all really. 

It's not like the Brits have gotten away scotts free either


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## dewdrop (30 Mar 2009)

I think it is a reasonably fair assessment.  Some are still in denial but at least Mr Cowen has clearly outlined our hugh problem and the pain and time it will take to put us back on course.  No use in blaming others.


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## Chocks away (30 Mar 2009)

Surely some positives have come from the past fifteen years? It's not all doom and gloom - unless you listen to the news hourly. Why do people look at the gloomy side always? Listening to radio and TV reports you'd swear that the four horsemen were waiting behind the Sugarloaf. Cheer up for Chrissake. It might never happen. Or it may. But the world will not stop revolving and the heavens will remain as they are.


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## MichaelDes (30 Mar 2009)

dewdrop said:


> I think it is a reasonably fair assessment. Some are still in denial but at least Mr Cowen has clearly outlined our hugh problem and the pain and time it will take to put us back on course. No use in blaming others.


 
So you don't see the irony of this piece, written by a trumped-up, cheerleading English journalist. On a newspaper quickly becoming a tabloid. This cheerleader fails to mention that the Great British nation is in the biggest stew of them all. Who underwrote all the derivative insurance of CDO's (Collateralised Debt Obligations), CDS's (Securities) and which market controlled 90% of the derivative, hedge and ABX trades - hmmm City of London. What country derivived 40% of its trade from one square mile (now worth nothing) and 30% from an inflated property bubble too - Broke Britian. This article is pot calling the kettle black in the finest sense.

Now why do you think sterling is being bebased? According to this  useless article, if Ireland is worth €20 then the UK's worth fanny nothing. For paddy-whackery refer to this dross 



> _Paddies heading for Poland?_





> _If you think the British economy is a mess, spare a thought for the neighbours “What’s the capital of Ireland?” they ask. “Oh, about 20 euros.” _
> 
> _The number of foreign workers rose from 1% of the population to over 12%, *sending it towards levels last seen before the potato famine............*_
> 
> _I left a *godly land* of broke but *merry alcoholics* and came back to a place where *people who used to dig potatoes* were buying luxury apartments_


 
Mentioning the tragic death at the start is disingenuous and comparing Ireland to Iceland is a fraud. At least this country has charm and character unlike the UK devoid of soul or any sort national identity apart from chav culture.

Finally this article mentions Ireland having to nationalise Anglo - now what's the counts so far in the UK with government ownership above 70%? Which country this weekend had a large mutual go to the wall, and would not be saved by these same great advising MP's for a miserly £5m.

This article belongs in the Statesman for irony. And overall some on here found this article interesting?? Oh deary deary me - sad.


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## noel_c (30 Mar 2009)

There's no doubt that some of the charges levelled against Ireland in the article are justified. The Standard & Poor's rating change this evening reflects that. 

But the gratuitous racial stereotyping in the article is completely unwarranted. The same article could have easily been written without the repeated quips about the potato famine and alcohol. Not surprising as The Sunday Times has undeniably descended into the realm of tabloid journalism.


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## tiger (30 Mar 2009)

I don't think we'll lose the last 15 years of gains, maybe 3 to 5 but who knows.
I don't think the UK are in much better shape either.


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## triciamonty (30 Mar 2009)

Firefly said:


> Tripe....
> 
> "The Celtic tiger that transformed a beer-soaked backwater...."
> 
> ...


 well said, its like the kettle calling the pot black.


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## Brianne (30 Mar 2009)

Schadenfreude!!!!


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## Chocks away (30 Mar 2009)

Brianne said:


> Schadenfreude!!!!


genau, mein Herr


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## mosstown (30 Mar 2009)

Exactly Sir, Happiness at the misfortune of others !


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## josip (30 Mar 2009)

tiger said:


> It is scary reading and deliberately goes for shock value, starting with a high profile suicide.
> Unfortunately on balance, I'm not sure that it's unfair. I think we're only approaching the end of the beginning, and we'll only have a good idea of how bad it's going to get by the end of this year.


 
I completely agree with tiger. I didn't see anything factually incorrect in the article and I think it accurately depicts what happened in Ireland over the last 20 years. The fact that many psoters prefer to focus on the origin of the article rather than the contents would indicate that there is still considerable denial about the terrible state of our economy.


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## Chocks away (31 Mar 2009)

The Sunday Times has been found out before. Google the amount of cases won against it. Without going through the article bit by bit, can I draw your attention to the story on Ryanair in page two. Twenty reasons not to use the airline.  Tabloidism at it's best in a gutter journal. They did not compare Ryanair's growth to BA's downward spiral. Likewise, in the main story they did not compare like with like - Ireland's economic woes with Britain's. The scurrilous portrayal and Punch-like caricatures bestowed on Irish people over the last hundred years by this rag should not be forgotten. There is nothing slanderous in this article but it should be read with a jaundiced eye and taken with a pinch of salt.


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## Mpsox (31 Mar 2009)

It seems to me that they found one shop that was selling single tea bags and cigarettes and that, + some comments from Gerald Keane were meant to present a fair and balanced picture of the Irish economic state. It was as if all anyone could afford over here was a single tea bag shared amongst the family
The reality is that you could walk into any area in England such as inner city Liverpool or parts of the East end of London and the situation would not be much better over there

I'm not saying we're not in trouble in Ireland, we are and I think at least we now all know it. Because of the boom, the fall is going to seem far worse then perhaps it really is. If the standard of living in Ireland falls to 2003 levels as Cowan is suggesting, so what? 2003 was not that bad was it? 

Mind you, my 2 year loved the picture of the cat on the magazine cover


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## Chocks away (31 Mar 2009)

To context these things, the Sunday Times/Times Online don't seem to be able to give balance. Today's effort by Susan Thompson shows the inherent ambiguities. The last sentence is at odds with the OP's link.

 “As a result, we believe that Ireland’s net general government debt burden could peak at over 70 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP) by 2013, a level we view as inconsistent with the prospective debt burdens of other small eurozone sovereigns in the AAA category.” S&P said Ireland’s rating outlook was negative, meaning it could be lowered again. 
 Dublin has vowed to arrest the melt-down in its fiscal standing in a supplementary budget on April 7 and yesterday reiterated that new measures would include a medium-term strategy for getting the budget deficit below an EU limit of 3 per cent of GDP. 
 Reacting to the credit rating cut, the Irish Finance Ministry said the country was experiencing a “very significant contraction in economic growth” but was expected to grow above trend once world growth resumed. 
 “The Government is committed to restoring order to the public finances by bringing the deficit below the 3 per cent limit by 2013,” the statement said. 
 The downgrade pushed up the cost of insuring Irish debt to 255 basis points from 221.5 basis points. However, the AA+ rating still means on the S&P scale that Ireland has an extremely strong capacity to repay its borrowings.


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## Jimbobp (31 Mar 2009)

I thought the article was a hotch potch of google searches & genaralisations. Some of what was said was factual but other things were either made up or based on Chinese whisper. The incident in Limerick whilst shocking and abhorent did not occur 'because a man didn't pay his debts.' And to make out that the Celtic tiger was set up by a few buckos in the back of a pub in Dublin is an insult to the IDA & business owners around the country. This was lazy red top journalism.


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## mainasia (1 Apr 2009)

Chocks away said:


> The Sunday Times has been found out before. Google the amount of cases won against it. Without going through the article bit by bit, can I draw your attention to the story on Ryanair in page two. Twenty reasons not to use the airline. Tabloidism at it's best in a gutter journal. They did not compare Ryanair's growth to BA's downward spiral. Likewise, in the main story they did not compare like with like - Ireland's economic woes with Britain's. The scurrilous portrayal and Punch-like caricatures bestowed on Irish people over the last hundred years by this rag should not be forgotten. There is nothing slanderous in this article but it should be read with a jaundiced eye and taken with a pinch of salt.


 
The comparison of Iceland and Ireland is ridiculous, Ireland still has a strong manufacturing and services sector even if it is not indigenous. It may be a bust but it's not a total wipe-out.


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## badabing (1 Apr 2009)

After the contraction this year, Ireland will still have the 2nd largest GDP per capita after luxembourg according to the economist. All we have to do is simply get public sector expenditure in line with the rest of Europe and we're singing. Easier said than done tho


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## Caveat (1 Apr 2009)

badabing said:


> All we have to do is simply get public sector expenditure in line with the rest of Europe and we're singing.


 
Do you really think that this is the only problem we have?


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## csirl (1 Apr 2009)

This article is a serious case of sour grapes from a country which missed the boom yet is in much deeper trouble than Ireland or any of our EU neighbours. 

Will be great to get this article out in 10 years time when the UK is regarded as a second world country.


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## Bronte (2 Apr 2009)

There is too much focus on the nationality of the writers rather than the contents.  Is there anything factually incorrect in the article?  For example are criminals a law onto themselves, people commiting suicide, parts of Limerick no go areas, single cigarettes being sold, alcohol abuse being tolerated etc


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## tml (2 Apr 2009)

Bronte said:


> There is too much focus on the nationality of the writers rather than the contents. Is there anything factually incorrect in the article? For example are criminals a law onto themselves, people commiting suicide, parts of Limerick no go areas, single cigarettes being sold, alcohol abuse being tolerated etc


 
But this was all happening during the boom years too, was it not?

And I dont think its restricted to Limerick / Ireland either!


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## hokey32 (2 Apr 2009)

Didn't read all the previous posts here but did read the article on Sunday.  Thought the bit about the shop selling single tea bags was mentioned as if it's a common occurence all over the country.  Ok selling single cigarettes when a packet is almost €9 I can see how that would happen because it used to happen but single tea bags?

Also, "celebrity solicitor" Gerald Keane is the last person I would be approaching for a quote on the state of the economy.

It smacked a little of - lets take the heat off the state of the UK for a bit and look at the sh*t that Ireland's in.


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## Bronte (2 Apr 2009)

tml said:


> But this was all happening during the boom years too, was it not?
> 
> And I dont think its restricted to Limerick / Ireland either!


 
No of course it's not restricted to Limerick but when you think of how relatively 'small' the problem area is in Limerick one wonders why it wasn't sorted out when times were good.  I am aware of the new 'proposed' regeneration programme there.  Ditto for the health service/system which was not touched upon by the article.  

In relation to single cigarettes/teabags.  That sort of sale would be normal in 3rd world countries.  I think that was the point of it being pointed out in the article.  It goes to show how the celtic tiger was wasted and that many were actually left behind.  What chance is there now when we can't fund the simple basics like vaccines for cervical cancer etc.


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## Sunny (2 Apr 2009)

Here is the American view of things!

[broken link removed]


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## queenlex (2 Apr 2009)

Chocks away said:


> Surely some *positives *have come from the past fifteen years? It's not all doom and gloom


 
Where are they???  Other than for the particularly rich who made a fortune and avoided/evaded tax I think everyone else will be back to square one from before the alleged and annoyingly named Celtic Tiger era.  Lots of others are way worse off with huge debt if only due to massive unjustifiable prices they paid for things like houses over the last few years!  Lifestyles have not improved really in my opinion and those who are working and those who are still in a job for the rest of the year work harder or at least longer hours than ever before.  Also the place is definitely not as friendly as pre that era down to a culture of materialism in my opinion and people losing track of teh really important things in life and thinking money (or credit) is God and having as big a mortgage as possible makes you something.  Show me the positives.....I cant see any honestly, other than the luas being our first proper transport system and then we could do with around 5 similar systems but now we dont have the money and things like having a proper health system should be the priority its true your health is your wealth and without that we have nothing to start with.


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## queenlex (2 Apr 2009)

Bronte said:


> There is too much focus on the nationality of the writers rather than the contents.


 
Totally agree some of the previous comments sound like they're based on the paper being a British/English paper which is ridiculous in this day and age...we're supposed to be educated here for Gods sake!


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## queenlex (2 Apr 2009)

badabing said:


> After the contraction this year, Ireland will still have the 2nd largest GDP per capita after luxembourg according to the economist. All we have to do is simply get public sector expenditure in line with the rest of Europe and we're singing. Easier said than done tho


 
Thats a ridiculously general comment when you consider a huge proportion of public servants are on around 20,000 a year (which is always conveniently left out by people who quote average wages of around 300,000 people or whatever it is at the moment) and people on the dole in some cases get very generous rental allowances and over €10,000 for doing nothing, in some cases willingly, to spend whatever way they want...  So ridiculously ignorant/provocative comment are two ways this post could be described.


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## Sunny (2 Apr 2009)

queenlex said:


> Thats a ridiculously general comment when you consider a huge proportion of public servants are on around 20,000 a year (which is always conveniently left out by people who quote average wages of around 300,000 people or whatever it is at the moment) and people on the dole in some cases get very generous rental allowances and over €10,000 for doing nothing, in some cases willingly, to spend whatever way they want... So ridiculously ignorant/provocative comment are two ways this post could be described.


 
Read the post. He didn't say public sector PAY. He said public sector EXPENDITURE. Maybe he meant cut back on services or cut social welfare


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## queenlex (2 Apr 2009)

Sunny said:


> Read the post. He didn't say public sector PAY. He said public sector EXPENDITURE. Maybe he meant cut back on services or cut social welfare


 
We'll see...


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## Bronte (3 Apr 2009)

The whole rot started when they allowed shops to open on Sundays.


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## tiger (3 Apr 2009)

Bronte said:


> The whole rot started when they allowed shops to open on Sundays.


Not sure if you're being tounge in cheek, but I would agree with rolling back opening hours and becoming a little more like our European neighbours.


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## phanteon (3 Apr 2009)

Ye I agree. Close the shops on Sundays. People have all week to buy things. Less wages to be paid and time off on Sundays for workers to have a life.


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## Bronte (3 Apr 2009)

tiger said:


> Not sure if you're being tounge in cheek, but I would agree with rolling back opening hours and becoming a little more like our European neighbours.


A bit of both.  In another lifetime I worked in Quinnsworth perish the thought.  I currently live on the Continent and even though not religious think that the calm of a non shopping day is good for the soul.  I realise this cannot apply to certain professions but it's good for society in general.  It's part of something that Ireland has lost and for what?


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## j26 (3 Apr 2009)

badabing said:


> All we have to do is simply get public sector expenditure in line with the rest of Europe and we're singing.


There's no way we should increase public expenditure at the moment


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## Elphaba (3 Apr 2009)

We're going off the point a bit here people. I have to admit I loved the half drowned little kitten on the front of the magazine with the big green eyes! The article was so over the top. it was hilarious, especially the bit about people wandering the streets in the pj's cause they couldn;t be bothered getting dressed. Maybe it was revenge for us winning the triple crown. Now here's an idea, Brian O'Driscoll and the lads in a photoshoot for style magazine all wearing green high heels!!


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## Caveat (3 Apr 2009)

I think some of the reactions have been a bit over the top on this.

Remember, this was a _magazine_ feature/article - it wasn't presented as 'news' and there is a difference. Features like these tend to be impressionistic and employ metaphor, hyperbole etc to an often tiresome and/or controversial affect - it is their nature.  

IMO the reason Ireland was 'singled out' was more to do with the sharp contrasts between the boom times here, the preceeding couple of decades, and the current recession rather than any latent racism or sour grapes.  

Look at any other magazine features in the ST (or indeed any Sunday paper) over the last few weeks and you will see the same stylistic language and provocative vocabulary on almost any subject matter.  It's not personal.


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