# Can anyone comment on this Dublin Architect



## orangegreen (17 Jan 2010)

If anyone has used or has experience of Derek Murphy Architects, could they PM me.


We don't have any personal recommendations for any architects so I'm trying to ask around..

Thank you.


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## Mommah (17 Jan 2010)

Check with the RIAI if he's an Architect or an "architect".
Lots of dubiously qualified people calling themsleves architects, plumbers, physiotherapists etc etc.


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## WaterSprite (17 Jan 2010)

And there are some RIAI architects that aren't very good... OP is right to get personal recommendations, for sure.  Sorry OP, I don't know that architect you mention but you should get references of his (and call them) and (if you can) call out to see some of his prior work in situ.  Perhaps post on boards.ie as well (if you haven't already).


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## onq (18 Jan 2010)

orangegreen said:


> If anyone has used or has experience of Derek Murphy Architects, could they PM me.
> 
> We don't have any personal recommendations for any architects so I'm trying to ask around..
> 
> Thank you.



Within their website they seem to give a good account of themselves.

They appear to have several client endorsements.




You could do some online research into their work if you wanted to flesh it out.

I know the two courtyard houses in Ballinclea Heights, Killiney.

You could drop around and look at the completed buildings.

They are visible in large part from the public road.

The following planning register references refer:

D04A/1550  - declared invalid due to site notice - happens to the best of us.

D05A/0099  - FI Request - Clarification of FI - Decision - Appealed - Granted

If you go here  you can view them online.

In terms of the two houses the designs seem mature and well thought out and certainly on a par with others of a similar kind.

If you want to find out more you should write to the owners of the properties and ask if they'll stand over the endorsements on the website.

Failing this, you'll find several building professionals regularly post to this website.

HTH

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## onq (18 Jan 2010)

Mommah said:


> Check with the RIAI if he's an Architect or an "architect".
> Lots of dubiously qualified people calling themsleves architects, plumbers, physiotherapists etc etc.



To be fair, there are also a lot of competent people who aren't automatically recognised under the Building Control Act 2007.

Only Members of the RIAI were automatically recognised.

ONQ.


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## RKQ (18 Jan 2010)

WaterSprite said:


> And there are some *RIAI architects that aren't very good*... OP is right to get personal recommendations, for sure.


 
+1 thats for sure. 100% agree. Be careful.

Reputation, referral and past work. Ask around, family, friends workmates etc. Look at buildings / extensions that you like and find out who designed them.


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## onq (21 Jan 2010)

orangegreen

Toview this application

You go here:



and enter this planning register reference D05A/0099 into the box marked

_Planning Reference_ under 

_Search Criteria_

You get this:


Planning Application Reference: D05A/0099

Proposal:
Demolition of existing 2 storey over lower ground floor dwelling and the provision of 2 new dwellings comprising 1 no. (5-bed), 2 storey over lower ground floor with balcony to rear and 1 no. (4-bed), 2 storey dwelling with ancillary site works incorporating new drainage and landscape works.

Application Type: Permission
Application Date: 02-Feb-2005
Main Location: Druidswood, Ballinclea Heights, Killiney, Co. Dublin
Status: Appeal decided - SEE APPEAL DETAILS

Council Decision: GRANT PERMISSION
Council Decision Date: 13-Jul-2005
Final Grant Date:
Extension of time to:

Applicant Details
Name: Robin Bradley
Agent Details
Name/Company: Doherty Finegan Kelly

--------------------------------------

The company listed as agent - Doherty Finegan Kelly - are engineers

Derek Murphy was the architect.

Follow the _view documents_ or _appeal details_ links and click on the links

Some seem to be repeat instances of a section drawing but work through them until you find the drawings.

Dlrcoco isn't that well organised but you have to persevere.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## Ceist Beag (22 Jan 2010)

onq, we're currently looking for a reputable architect and have used www.riai.ie to search but the numbers coming back on this site are quite small. Is the search facility on that site poor as I can't even find your own practice up there so am just wondering if they hold a comprehensive list of just a selection?


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## DBK100 (22 Jan 2010)

Ceist Beag said:


> onq, we're currently looking for a reputable architect and have used www.riai.ie to search but the numbers coming back on this site are quite small. Is the search facility on that site poor as I can't even find your own practice up there so am just wondering if they hold a comprehensive list of just a selection?



The search facility on the RIAI website is very poor. The website has been recently rebuilt but they have not taken the opportunity to improve this aspect of it.

If you are searching for an architect, for say residential work, in a county other than Dublin it will work reasonably well as the only geographic criteria you can enter is the county. You will get back a full list of Architects in that county.

However in Dublin you have the choice of "County" or postal regions 1 to 24. 
The problem is that it really does not matter where in Dublin the Architect's office is located. Most firms will take on work throughout the city, county and beyond. So if you search for architects in the area your house is located, say Dublin 24, you will get very few results. 
Conversely, the many smaller and talented firms of Architects scattered around the city center will never show up in your results if you have entered your location as Dublin 4,6,8, etc. etc. We are located in Dublin 2 and are happy to work in all areas, yet not many people will find our name if they enter "residential" and any other postcode.
It’s a fundamental problem that affects potential clients and architects, and something I will raise with the RIAI as a member Architect.

You will be best served by just using Google and enter terms appropriate to what you want (Contemporary, domestic, conservation, etc.). If you type in "Dublin Architect" (or another location), Google will throw up a map and the names of 7 firms. You can also click into the "Local Business Results" to find many more firms listed with images of projects and direct links to websites.
Spend a bit of time looking at websites to see if you like their work and what their expertise is. Then talk to a short listed few to gauge levels of fee charged and whether they are the type of people you think you would like to work with.

Good Luck!

P.S. One of the benefits of the RIAI site is that all results will be Architects & RIAI members. Google searches can return people or firms who claim to be, but should not use the term, as its use is restricted under the Building Control Act. If you find a firm from google, simply check their name on the RIAI site to confirm.


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## onq (23 Jan 2010)

DBK100 said:


> <snip>
> P.S. One of the benefits of the RIAI site is that all results will be Architects & RIAI members. Google searches can return people or firms who claim to be, but should not use the term, as its use is restricted under the Building Control Act. If you find a firm from google, simply check their name on the RIAI site to confirm.



I have occasionally advised clients in relation to matters of non-compliance. 

Of four projects I have investigated; -

one is in the High Court
one resulted in several legal actions
one was was referred to the local authority
one was out of time but there was a definite case to be made.
All of the works giving rise to these investigations were certified by MRIAI registered architects.

Do not mistake my intent.

This is not an attempt to tar the many honourable MRIAI members with the actions of a few.
It is to show that the badge alone isn't proof of what you're getting. 
You can know everything there is to know and pass the Part III exam.
It doesn't mean you will act honourably - that comes down to personal qualities.

This fact that should be obvious to all from the many cases taken last year against corrupt solicitors.
Many of these people were quite competent, indeed they had to be both intelligent as well as competent to run the kind of scams that they did.

There point is, there will always be a few bad apples, whatever the level of competence.
Look at the projects. Talk to the clients. Meet the professional you are interested in. Make your decision.

FWIW

ONQ.

PS The use of the term "Architect" by anyone not on the Register of Architects is an offence under the Act - the provision of architectural services is not.

[broken link removed]


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## onq (23 Jan 2010)

Ceist Beag said:


> onq, we're currently looking for a reputable architect and have used www.riai.ie to search but the numbers coming back on this site are quite small. Is the search facility on that site poor as I can't even find your own practice up there so am just wondering if they hold a comprehensive list of just a selection?



Hi Ceist Beag,

You won't find our practice there yet as I'm not yet Registered or a Member of the RIAI.
Registration as an Architect and Membership of the RIAI are not necessarily the same thing.
MRIAIs are automatically Registered, but those who apply to be Registered are not in the RIAI.
I understand that anyone who applies to be registered and is successful may also apply to join the RIAI
Over the next few years, it is expected that persons who wish to practice will Register and also join the RIAI

I qualified twenty years ago from Bolton Street DIT just after the Architects Directive 85/384/EEC came into being.
[broken link removed]
This entitled four classes of persons from Ireland 

to provide architectural services throughout the EU
to have their qualifications recognised in all other EU countries and 
to practice as and call themselves "Architect".

_CHAPTER II
DIPLOMAS, CERTIFICATES AND OTHER EVIDENCE OF FORMAL QUALIFICATIONS
ENABLING THE HOLDER TO TAKE UP ACTIVITIES IN THE FIELD OF ARCHITECTURE
UNDER THE PROFESSIONAL TITLE OF ARCHITECT_

From P. 11,

_(f) in Ireland
- the degree of Bachelor of Architecture awarded by the National University of Ireland (B Arch. (NUI)) to architecture graduates of University College, Dublin;
- the diploma of degree standard in architecture awarded by the College of Technology, Bolton Street, Dublin (Dipl. Arch.); 
- the Certificate of Associateship of the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland (ARIAI);
- the Certificate of Membership of the Royal Institute of Architects of Ireland (MRIAI);_

After this came into law Opinions of Compliance issued by practising architects who held these qualifications or certificates referred to the Directive below their signature. At one stage I was also an Associate of the RIAI.

The Building Control Act 2007 requires all persons practising as architects to be registered. I support this aim. It will mean disruption for a time for some - like me - who are formally qualified from a five year course and who have worked under Members of the RIAI for more than 7 years. It may possibly mean more hardship for others who have practised as architects successfully without formal qualifications for years. 

That is because only existing Members of the RIAI are entitled to be automatically registered without a separate vetting process - their Part III's are accepted as proving that the relevant standards of knowledge of professional practice have been met for Registration purposes.

That does not mean that the door is closed to unqualified successes or Architectural Technicians.
A separate Technical Assessment Board has already been set up to process their applications.

The Building Control Act 2007 became law in May 2008. The registration board got its chairman last summer. The board started accepting applications in November 2009. I am currently researching documentation from projects I did with another office twenty years ago to allow me to apply for registration under Option C. All going well, I intend to apply next month. All may not go well, however because most offices shred files after 6 years [unsealed] or 12 years [under seal]. The RIAI have exacting standards both for competence and presentation. We'll see how it goes.

---------------------------------

In relation to your other query, I offer the following advice.
Look for work you like. Find out who did it. Talk to some of his/her clients. Talk to the architect. Talk about Fees.

The RIAI website is less than useful at the moment - teething problems I have no doubt.
Or perhaps not enough people like you ringing them up and telling them your experience - its not going to improve if you don't.

The last time I went there I couldn't get it to work at all.
DBK100's post suggests that its to be divided up geographically.

I think the criterion of proximity is not the best way to approach selection. 
Over the course of the past twenty years I have done work in Belfast, Cork, Kerry, Donegal,  Limerick, Galway, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow, South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, Dublin City, - in short, all over the country.

Most architects have transport, although there are a few Green variants who may not have a car.
They can still fly or get the train and indeed the fittest may choose to cycle to you.

The important thing is to go for someone whose work you like, whom you get on with and whose fees are acceptable.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## Ceist Beag (25 Jan 2010)

ONQ thanks for the detailed reply, it's good to know these things. I know what you're saying about how best to find the architect we would like to work with but it's not that easy to do in practice. The work we want done is an extension to the back of a one off house which is not far off 100 years old - it's not easy to find out how many of these have been done recently unless you have a helicopter!  I was hoping to be able to visit websites via the RIAI site and view projects completed there but I don't think many of the architects I've found have spent too much time on their websites going by what I've found. I might try and use the Contact Us facility on the RIAI website as they do suggest this as a means of getting recommendations from them.


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## DBK100 (25 Jan 2010)

onq said:


> I have occasionally advised clients in relation to matters of non-compliance.
> 
> Of four projects I have investigated; -
> 
> ...




                 The above ‘may’ be correct, but it is not balanced. 

  A person engaging a 'service provider' of any description, whether a member of a professional body or not, should be aware that there will always be some who will be negligent, incompetent or indeed even corrupt.
  It is always up to the client to satisfy themselves of any service provider's abilities, experience and competence. This has to be done through trusted recommendations, seeing previous work first-hand, and talking to the provider in order to form an opinion on character. Any client who does not take these initial steps is leaving themselves wide open to potential problems. 

To add a bit of balance to the comments above, it is likely that there are no more incompetent Architects than Doctors, Engineers, Accountants, Builders, Architectural Technicians or any other Building Services Provider, - It does come down to personal qualities!
While membership of any Institute or body does not guarantee competence, it is extremely useful. Professional Institutes and other such bodies are there for various reasons. One of the main ones is the confirmation of a members qualifications and relevant experience.

It is also likely anecdotal evidence would indicate that all the above groups unfortunately have members who end up in court or in front of the relevant conduct committee. This however demonstrates that procedures do work and that the unprofessional, of whatever discipline, is held to account.

  For the 4 cases cited above to be of any relevance at all, they would need to be compared against non-compliance issues arising through the conduct of other Building Service Providers (non RIAI) who undertake a considerable proportion of domestic work projects. I am aware of numerous serious cases but feel that citing them here, without any supporting facts (therefore rendering them conjectural), would do nothing but perpetuate the skewed argument above. 

  I have tried to be impartial in my posts (supporting technician’s skills elsewhere), and feel it important to address logical fallacies (observational selection) such as the above comments.   The note on checking RIAI membership was added because the Poster enquired about _“looking for a reputable *architect*”_, not to promote one group over another.


  When I’m walking, cyclists try to kill me on the footpath;
  When I’m cycling, motorists always cut me off;
  When I’m driving, bus drivers pull out in front of me;
Everyone seems to be at it.
  But when I’m thinking clearly, I realize all of us can make mistakes some of the time!
  …Yes, even Architects and Architectural Technicians.


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## Ceist Beag (25 Jan 2010)

Thanks for your feedback DBK100 (and meant to say thanks for the reply on riai.ie as well!). I think that for a public joe like myself I think it does offer some level of comfort knowing the architect is registered with riai - obviously it's no guarantee as you say but I think it is less risky that taking on someone not registered. But I take on board the points both you and onq make about following up by researching previous projects of any architect for references and such.


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## paddi22 (25 Jan 2010)

[broken link removed]

has a directory of architects and also some of their projects are mentioned in articles...


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## onq (25 Jan 2010)

DBK100 said:


> The above ‘may’ be correct, but it is not balanced.



I think this is well-balanced:

_"This is not an attempt to tar the many honourable MRIAI members with the actions of a few.
It is to show that the badge alone isn't proof of what you're getting. 
You can know everything there is to know and pass the Part III exam.
It doesn't mean you will act honourably - that comes down to personal qualities."_

The point I was making is that my experiece suggests that it makes no difference to a person's professional integrity in practice whether they are members of the RIAI or not.
If you stop and think for a minute this actually absolves the RIAI from being tarred with the same brush as these errant architects, whose day to day actions they cannot direct or control.
There are, as you imply, bad apples in every barrel and my comment about the legal profession underlined this - but a few corrupt solicitors don't undermine the standing of that profession or the ILS.

ONQ.


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