# Neighbours want to extend across boundary



## micamaca (12 Apr 2009)

Hi,

I suppose this is directed more at solicitors. I had a previous post about neighbours extending to boundary. Well, it seems their builder thought it would be a good idea to extend across the boundary. 

I though a boundary was shared by two parties, i.e. if wall or boundary fence was 5 inches wide, then 2.5 was owned by one party and 2.5 owned by the other party. But that neither party could use the others 2.5 inches. 

The builder wants to use 2.5 and at least an additional 2 inches on our side. He wants to replace a 5 inch fence with 9 inch bricks.  Is this normal practice? He seems to think it is, which means our neighbours think it is, putting us in awkward position. 

We were originally concerned about gutters etc. But it will be a parapett wall so no gutters hanging over...but there will be 4.5 inches of brick! 

Am I losing my marbles or is this not a bit odd?

I do have a surveyor coming out but do I need to speak to a solicitor too?  Neighbours are not trying to pull a fast one but I have a feeling the builder is. 

Are people allowed to build over our side of the boundary wall? Is that what a party wall is?


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## Sconhome (12 Apr 2009)

If you agreed to a party wall, then the midpoint is split over the construction ie as above if you had a 4" fence post the mid point would be established as 2", the construction midpoint would then be at this established midpoint of the properties, resulting as you say with a 4.5" encroachment on your side when 9" work is split.

The parapet is a normal construction method to avoid trespass of gutters etc over the shared boundary wall.

If you didn't agree to the party wall construction, then all blockwork, rendering, gutters AND foundations must be on the neighbours side of the midpoint.

It may be a case that the party wall was not properly explained at the start. The idea is that it becomes a shared construction which you can use in the future (if you wish) to extend on your side of the property.

Hope this helps.


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## micamaca (12 Apr 2009)

Thank you, it does help because that you explain what a party wall is. I've tried googling but not much comes up under Ireland as there is no Party Wall Act so it's hard to know what applies and what doesn't. 

It does sound like we should get a Party Wall Agreement signed by solicitors as MOB suggested earlier, if we do agree to a Party Wall. So if we sold the property, we may be able to confer the right to build onto our purchaser, regardless of who lives next door. I have no idea if this can be done, but people have suggested there can be problems when a new owner moves into extended house and they don't want anyone building on. 

We have agreed to nothing just yet as we want to find out more information before we agree to something. We did speak to the builder and our neighbours but it can be hard to take everything in at once. So we are mulling it over. My husband thinks it is not a big deal to give up 4.5 inches or so...some of that already used by the existing boundary fence. I'm not sure if legally it is okay to do that, having worked in a bank and seeing solicitors' letters about boundaries being moved etc. Our surveyor is coming next week and will take it from there.

I suppose I was trying to suss out, is what the builder is suggesting reasonable and legal...was getting a bit of a headache thinking about it today and wishing it would all just go away 
I have plenty of other things I should be thinking about! 

The neighbours are lovely but I don't want us to concede something only for it to come back and bite us in the a$$ later.


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## speculative (20 Apr 2009)

Am in a very similar position except that my neighbours arent very pleasant and since they've moved in there have been a few fast ones pulled. I wont go into detail but several ammendments to the house would never receive planning permission as per the planning authorities website.

We continue to try to be accomodating - they've recently started a build (and within the first couple of days breached the planning authorities definition of legal work hours starting at 8am for 4 hours on a sunday with no warning or heads up from them in any form) and we've 'talked' about the boundary wall. Although they appear very slow to put it in writing. At this point Im trying to put together the letter of agreement from the points I have seen suggested here in previous posts and would appreciate any pointers from the OP or anyone else.

Im guessing it should include the following:
a) a declaration of where the centre point of the boundary wall should be
b) a declaration that both parties can now or in the future build off the boundary wall
c) that a parapet is used on the wall to ensure no guttering is overhanging either property

Their planning permission was approved based on a boundary wall with a parapet finish etc but Ive been told by themselves that they arent following the plans ... single story instead of a double etc ...  my dealings with them to date make me think that whatever agreement is in place theres no guarantee that they'll follow them.

My approach will be the informal one at first. Draft a letter of agreement - attempt to get it signed by all parties before the current boundary wall is demolished when Im at work. Or do people recommend just going to a solicitor now to do it for me. Im attempting not to inflame a situation but am determined not to be walked on. 

OP, if you've a list of things in mind for your letter of agreement that compliments a), b) and c) above let me know. Dont want to highjack your thread but in need of similar advice.


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## speculative (16 Jun 2009)

speculative said:


> Am in a very similar position except that my neighbours arent very pleasant and since they've moved in there have been a few fast ones pulled. I wont go into detail but several ammendments to the house would never receive planning permission as per the planning authorities website.
> 
> We continue to try to be accomodating - they've recently started a build (and within the first couple of days breached the planning authorities definition of legal work hours starting at 8am for 4 hours on a sunday with no warning or heads up from them in any form) and we've 'talked' about the boundary wall. Although they appear very slow to put it in writing. At this point Im trying to put together the letter of agreement from the points I have seen suggested here in previous posts and would appreciate any pointers from the OP or anyone else.
> 
> ...



Bumping this since things have progressed a little further with more trouble.
Work continued on our neighbours build with lots of 'yeah, we must get a letter together' from them. When we asked them their intentions regarding the boundary one evening they told us they intended to knock through the wall that week. With no written agreement.

In an attempt to get it sorted in an amicable manner we drafted a letter of agreement - which stated clearly the construction of the wall should have a centre line along the existing centre line of the boundary, the length and that the development should not compromise our intended plans. Pictures of both rear elevations identifying the boundary and a parapet finish along with references to the planning permissions were included. This letter was signed.

Boundary wall has been built now - the problem I found last night was that instead of a parapet finish on the wall they are constructing their pitched roof off the top of the wall. This differs from the plans that have been granted permission - which may be fine - but it contradicts the agreement since it will compromise our build. 
When approached they told us that the bits on our property would be cut back ... but I fail to see how guttering wont be protruding in the future into our property.

Bottom line is I need advice - is it time to go to a solicitor ? we're intended to commence our build later in the summer but this issue with the boundary has been a worry for some time. The ad-hoc approach next door is really getting both of us down at this point.


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## Sconhome (16 Jun 2009)

In writing, inform them that you have a concern regarding the detailing of the finished overhang. Ask them to graphically represent how this is going to be finished ( by reply written correspondence). Inform them that your architect has concerns with designing your project without this information (white lie) and that his guess work at their finish is costing you money with drafting fees.

This puts them on notice that you have concerns, you have not second guessed the builder's finish, they may intend doing the required changes (not sure how from your description) and you need to allow them the opportunity to comply with the obtained permission.

If they dont respond, put a time frame, say 5 days on the letter or email, then follow up requesting the information and inform them that your architect is going to submit a clarification request to the local planning office for the required detailing.

This takes the onus off you and puts it squarely on your architect (even if you dont have one just yet). If they dont respond to these civil requests for information then you must consider that they are not being neighbours and are using the neighbour factor to bully you. Let us know how you get on.


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## Staples (16 Jun 2009)

speculative said:


> Boundary wall has been built now - the problem I found last night was that instead of a parapet finish on the wall they are constructing their pitched roof off the top of the wall. This differs from the plans that have been granted permission - which may be fine - but it contradicts the agreement since it will compromise our build. .


 
What they're proposing is in breach of their planning permission - no ifs, buts or maybes.  

The planning autorities cannot and do not give permission for properties that overhang other properties.  In this case, it seems the permitted plan wasn't followed and while this may be the fault of the builders, it's the ultimate responsibility of the developers (i.e. the owners).

If you're not happy with the proposed development, voice your concerns now.  These matters become more difficult to resolve if they're left until later.


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## speculative (16 Jun 2009)

Thanks for the replies to date.

The plans submitted by those next door that were approved appear to have been completely disregarded.

Ive had some advice from my architect this morning who suggested obtaining a written detail of the finish they intend to develop on the wall. I voiced the concern that to date all requests for anything written have been met with 'we dont know what we're doing yet'. He suggested that in this case a solicitor should write to them requesting the detail that he can then follow up on.

They're builder was informed this morning that building on our side of the party wall was a non-runner and a copy of the agreement letter was provided. Its unlikely this was the first time he viewed this document but he agreed to employ a parapet finish to the top of the wall.  In the event that further work is done on the wall in line with what was started yesterday it will be a case of going to my solicitor. 



There is nothing neighbourly about these people.


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## mro (16 Jun 2009)

Why not go to the planners if 



speculative said:


> The plans submitted by those next door that were approved appear to have been completely disregarded.


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## Sconhome (16 Jun 2009)

speculative - I think it is time you or your architect notified the planners. You have done your best to be accomodating to your 'neighbours' when negotiating a sensitive situation, they have done nothing but bully.

It could also be their 'builder' being ignorant and ploughing ahead with what 'he knows best'.

Eliminate the doubt and contact the planners.


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## Staples (17 Jun 2009)

speculative said:


> I voiced the concern that to date all requests for anything written have been met with 'we dont know what we're doing yet'.


 
This is insane.  They can only do what's contained in the approved plan.  

IMHO, you've been far too accommodating and your own architect, by proposing "letters of agreement" seems to be making things more complicated than necessary.  

Report this matter to your planning authority and let them handle it.


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## speculative (17 Jun 2009)

yep - all good advice.

A somewhat predictable scenario just panned out:
Spoke with planning authority. Communicated issue from our own point of view. As in based on the plans submitted, approved we need to build of a parapet wall. Described letter of agreement and current scenario.
Bottom line: they regretfully informed me that their hands are tied and its a civil issue. But did refer me to the enforcement dept.

When calling enforcement - I again asked questions from our own point of view -  things like commencement notices, changes to the plans submitted etc. They asked was their changes required and I mentioned it may have to occur to to neighbours ad hoc build. 

Long story short: I need to drop into the planning office and ask to see a commencement notice to verify one was never submitted. I know and the guy on the other end of the phone knows it doesnt exist but bound by process to play it out. They also said they can do nothing without a complaint.

Which Ill submit online.

Anything for a peaceful life really but I suspect this is far from concluded in any good way. With some resigation, I conclude that the process of planning is the same as any other law - there are those that follow it and worry about breaking it and then there are those that just dont care. From the side of the fence (no pun intended) that Im on right now the process appears to be beneficial to my neighbours. I suspect the game plan was to build what and how they liked and then apply for retention at some point.

Thanks for the suggestions folks.


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## karltimber (20 Jun 2009)

I know I will get guff for saying this but it's just the way I view people like your neighbours and their builders - these are the folks that will blagg, lie and push their way through life. They could not care less about your letters, agreements or anything else.

If I was in your situation - I would verbally inform the neighbour and builder that anyhting that that goes over the boundary line (timber, sofftet etc) will be cut down. Same as overgrown trees into a property.

They will just continue with the build, and build into your property and it will never get fixed. 

just my opinion,

k


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## S.L.F (20 Jun 2009)

karltimber said:


> I know I will get guff for saying this but it's just the way I view people like your neighbours and their builders - these are the folks that will blagg, lie and push their way through life. They could not care less about your letters, agreements or anything else.
> 
> If I was in your situation - I would verbally inform the neighbour and builder that anyhting that that goes over the boundary line (timber, sofftet etc) will be cut down. Same as overgrown trees into a property.
> 
> ...


 
I agree witrh this totally, but to further it.

Totally deny them access to your property put a camera in a back bed room to ensure they don't tresspass onto your property.

If they tresspass it is a matter for the Police.

You could also plant a few trees along the wall to give them something to think about in a few years


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## z109 (20 Jun 2009)

speculative said:


> Which Ill submit online.


Submit on paper and get a receipt.


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## S.L.F (20 Jun 2009)

I really don't understand why it is people are afraid to take matters into their own hands if someone throws a brick into your garden you pick it up and dispose of it.

This is exactly the same.

The absolute best thing for the OP to do is get tough and start knocking the wall down as it starts to get built, tell the builder he is not to build on your property.

Since the builder only has a set time to get the building done and since the legal route takes forever, this would be the fastest way to resolve things.

Even give the builder access to your property to render the wall *IF* they play ball and build on their side of the line.

I don't need to say you shouldn't knock it after it has dried and has a roof on it.


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## karltimber (20 Jun 2009)

By all means continue with the local council route.

But do not let them start, continue or finish any timber work overhanging your property.
If they end up with a finished overhang (gutters, soffet etc) this will all end up in court over years and could cost you.

please keep us up to date as this is both very interesting and informative.

k


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## speculative (22 Jun 2009)

karltimber said:


> By all means continue with the local council route.
> 
> But do not let them start, continue or finish any timber work overhanging your property.
> If they end up with a finished overhang (gutters, soffet etc) this will all end up in court over years and could cost you.
> ...



Quick update
Parapet was built last week - I took a snap of the end of this wall and it would appear that they've just built the remainder of the wall over the wooden base of their pitched roof - all on their side of the boundary wall.

Professional opinion on this is that is not structurely sound, is poor practice and cant be built off from our point of view. The planning enforcement section have all these details.

Thanks for the suggestions. With the parapet in place there'll be no overhang but in the opinion of our architect it may not be wise for us to build off this wall.


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## Sconhome (22 Jun 2009)

That sounds dangerous. If I understand they built the wall, installed the roof structure and then built on top of the timbers with no tie into the blockwork??

A knock or storm could cause it to fall in and kill someone.


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