# Totally lost as to what to do about heating in duplex



## Parting (27 Dec 2015)

I made some big changes in my life to get out of debt and prepare for living on a social welfare pension in a couple of years time.  I sold my home paid off mortage and bought a duplex which I was delighted with.  It has metered gas heating and to my horror when the weather got cold down to 5 degrees, I discovered that the place is freezing and the gas has cost me 400e for just one month for 4 hours a day and I still had to back it up with an electric heater.  I am at a complete loss as to what to do.  I'm only in it just over one month.  I would be very grateful for any advice.


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## vandriver (28 Dec 2015)

Have you had a bill for €400?
Or,have you taken a reading and worked it out yourself?
If so,what calculation did you use.


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## Parting (28 Dec 2015)

Thank you for your reply.  I took a reading and gave it to flogas who worked it out.  I checked it with two different customer support team members as I was sure there must have been a mistake.  They then told me to take  two readings in a 24 hour period and ring it in.  When they calculated the units used, it worked out that it is costing me 2.25c per hour.  I had the boiler serviced and it is 97% efficient.


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## Shane007 (28 Dec 2015)

Have a look at your bill and see what rate they have you on. Metered LPG is one of the most expensive forms of energy in today's market.
I think they charge approx €2.67 per m3.
If that is your rate, that's 11.2 cent per kWh which compared to oil at the moment is 4.8 cent per kWh. Natural gas is approx 6.5 cent per kWh so you can see if you were on one of these forms of energy, your bill would be less than half what it is.

If you have a high efficiency boiler which modulates, your average hourly system demand for a duplex is approx 15kw, so that's 60kw per day.
Add the 10% efficiency loss for the boiler and that would be a daily running cost of approx €7.39 per day.

So your monthly cost should be approx €221.70 per month.
Your boiler is a seasonal efficiency boiler of 90%. The combustion efficiency is 97%.

So by the figures, something is very wrong, unless I am missing something.

Is your boiler a high efficiency boiler?
What is the sqm of the duplex?
How good is the insulation & air tightness (draughts) in your home?
Did the service person do a gas tightness test of the gas pipes to ensure there is no gas leak? (This is not always included in a service)


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## Shane007 (28 Dec 2015)

True. I assumed it was LPG.

If you post your meter readings for a day and state if it's Natural Gas or LPG, I can calculate the rest.

Also need your cost per kWh, this should be on your bill if it's NG or cost per m3 if it's metered LPG.


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## Parting (28 Dec 2015)

Thank you for your replies  sahd and Shane.  I am so new to this that I'm just stumbling through the details and its good to have questions asked because then I can gather the right info to help me solve the problem.

Its LPG, and as I haven't got my first bill I don't know how much I'm being charge per M3.  (I always had oil up to now and understood that system much better) As I run a tight budget,  I wondered how much it was costing me so thats why I rang with a meter reading. 

The Duplex is 900 sq ft. 
The Boiler is a Baxi which the engineer told me is a top model (if thats true)
I don't know if he checked for leaks, I didn't ask him to, so perhaps not.
Regarding insulation, I'm concerned its not as good as I had expected it to be.  I have one big window, an external door and a smaller window in the living room and I feel they are not air tight.  I'm looking at doing attitional insulation in this room.
I'm also going to put a curtain at front door even though I can't detect a draught there and also there is a very high stairwell, so am also going to put a curtain there at bottom of stairs.
Sorry it was 2.25 euro not cent. When I did the reading over 24 hours, I only had the gas on for 4.25 of those and the agent calculated it to be 10 euro, that is 2.25 per hour approx.  I see at that it wouln't come to 400 for the month at that rate so there is some anomily there.   However I feel that is an awful price for heat.  Unfortunately when I was asking people who had gas before I bought, two had natural gas and one had private tank, ours is communal.  I didn't know at the time they were nt comparable.  I wouldnt have never bought if I knew how expensive it is as its way outside my present budget, never mind when I retire.  I don't know others in this community yet to ask about their experiences.

If anyone lives in a similar situation to me, a 3 bed apartment or duplex with lpt gas supplied by flo gas, would you mind telling me what your bills are like and how many hours you run it.   Thank you.



Again many thanks for your interest.


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## Sandals (28 Dec 2015)

If your putting up a curtain, go for an insulated curtain...it's got fleece lining..better bedding in Galway city sell them ready made 90 by 90 140€ if I remember correctly.

One bedroom I added a €4 fleece blanket to existing curtain and result was amazing.


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## Ann1 (28 Dec 2015)

Hi Partling...You say you have only lived in the duplex for one month. Is it possible that the previous owner is responsible for some of the gas usage. Did you take meter readings of gas and electricity when you first moved in.


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## Parting (28 Dec 2015)

Sandals said:


> If your putting up a curtain, go for an insulated curtain...it's got fleece lining..better bedding in Galway city sell them ready made 90 by 90 140€ if I remember correctly.
> 
> One bedroom I added a €4 fleece blanket to existing curtain and result was amazing.








Thank you Sandals, great idea.


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## Parting (28 Dec 2015)

Ann1 said:


> Hi Partling...You say you have only lived in the duplex for one month. Is it possible that the previous owner is responsible for some of the gas usage. Did you take meter readings of gas and electricity when you first moved in.



Hi Ann, yes I took the readings when I moved in.  Initialy I had hoped flogas had the wrong starting meter usage,  but unfortunately not


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## Shane007 (28 Dec 2015)

Can you post the readings you read & also the Baxi model of boiler?

Also do you have any other gas appliances such as cooker, gas fire, etc that would also be in use?


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## Ann1 (28 Dec 2015)

Hi Parting...the last three listings in this link may be of interest to you. 

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/housing_grants_and_schemes/


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## Parting (28 Dec 2015)

]


Shane007 said:


> Can you post the readings you read & also the Baxi model of boiler?
> 
> Also do you have any other gas appliances such as cooker, gas fire, etc that would also be in use?




Only the heating is gas.  The boiler says baxi  35/60 is that the model no?   These are the readings I took for 3 3/4hours of use.  Actually I'm remembering it was 3 3/4 hours not 4 1/4.  (I knew there was a quarter somewhere)  3228/544 and 3231/048.  The last 3 digits are in red on meter. This cost ten euro.

Many thanks.


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## Shane007 (28 Dec 2015)

Ok. Your actual heat input before efficiency losses for that reading was 59.43kw net heat input, so my daily calculation wasn't too far off.
Your Baxi 35/60 is not a high efficiency boiler and your service man does not understand how to set up his flue gas analyser before putting it into the flue. He had it on the wrong setting that gave you the incorrect efficiency reading. That boiler would be approx 81% combustion efficiency and a SEDBUK seasonal efficiency Band D 78% - 82% when new.

Therefore your daily heat input of 59.43kw outputted to your system  approx 47.5kw for the time it was on, and your hourly demand is heat input 15.8kw per hour average.

You used 2.5m3 of gas and if they said this cost you €10, then the cost per m3 is €2.50. (I previously thought €2.67).

So your average monthly cost should be €300 with your standard efficiency boiler. 

In summary, having a standard efficiency boiler with metered LPG, it brings your cost per kWh up to 13.2 cent per kWh. 

There is still €100 worth of gas unaccounted for the month but perhaps an extra hour here and there or I would insist on a gas tightness test being done next time, and a gas engineer who knows how to use their flue gas analyser!


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## Shane007 (28 Dec 2015)

By having a HE boiler it would bring your cost per kWh down to 11.7 cent per kWh.

They also modulate better than the 35/60 and quicker heat times so the house will heat quicker.

The 35/60 is a good boiler for its day, fairly bullet proof too.


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## Parting (29 Dec 2015)

Thank you Shane for working all this out for me, you are very kind.  I'll have to think about it carefully and make very cautious decisions. Even with the HE boiler, it is still very expensive and I worry that when the more severe weather comes, I would have to increase the hours considerably.  What I'm gleaming from your information is that there is no massive leak.  Does the number of radiators used have any effect on it?  I'm wondering if I turned off some would it help?


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## Shane007 (29 Dec 2015)

If you had a HE boiler with thermostatic control, you would save approx 30% or thereabouts, so not to be sniffed at.
The number of radiators on does have an affect as your boiler is modulating but having cold rooms introduces its own problems. It can create convection within the home and condensation. It's not that big of a home, so I wouldn't really go down that route.
In my opinion you have a few options:
1. Upgrade your boiler to a HE gas boiler.
2. Upgrade your controls to include accurate temperature control.
3. Upgrade your insulation and air tightness. You would be surprised at how inefficienct your home really is.
4. Negotiate with Flogas a more favourable rate for your gas (threaten them with moving to oil, but with metered estates they rarely budge on their price). Currently, their bulk tank rate is 55 cent per litre. 1 litre of liquid LPG produces 274 litres of vapour gas therefore this rate would cost 8.4 cent per kWh.
5. All of the above.
6. Move to oil.


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## Shane007 (29 Dec 2015)

Just a thought. Are you sure your bill is for just one month and doesn't include other connection costs?
Their bills are usually bi-monthly.


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## Parting (29 Dec 2015)

Shane007 said:


> Just a thought. Are you sure your bill is for just one month and doesn't include other connection costs?
> Their bills are usually bi-monthly.




Great information Shane and I really appreciate your time and trouble. Its exactly the sort of info I'm looking for.  I didn't receive my first bill yet, only dealing with calculations by customer service agents who calculated based on starting meter reading and current reading.  I rang them as I was anxious to know what I was using.  I will consider all options carefully. Again many thanks.


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## Parting (29 Dec 2015)

Shane007 said:


> Just a thought. Are you sure your bill is for just one month and doesn't include other connection costs?
> Their bills are usually bi-monthly.




Ps.  In browsing old posts here re heating I notice a few years ago you recommended Farho electric heaters as an alternative to storage heaters.  You didn't mention them as a consideration for me, just wondering if your opinion has changed about them or would they be an option for me to consider?


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## Shane007 (29 Dec 2015)

They are fine when no other alternative is found as electricity is 18 cent per kWh. Although they are 100% efficient, it is cheaper heating as you are.
I have installed Farho's where the room was not convenient to run pipes or the period of use for the room was limited.

I had my home insulated and air tightnessed with a product called Waltite manufactured by BASF. The difference was extraordinary. Highly recommended and it halved my heating costs.


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## JohnJay (30 Dec 2015)

if you do find yourself using electricity to back up your heating system, dont forget to look in to getting a nightsaver meter. You pay a higher standing charge, but you get cheaper electricity for 9 hours at night. Info here .

As Shane said, moving to oil would also be a good move, but you would need some outside space to fit an oil tank, and your management company mightn't be very happy.


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