# The EBS: "You're Better Off In The Long Run" Are U ?



## garrettod (30 Oct 2004)

Hi

Speaking as a small, personal customer of the EBS Building Society, I don't think I am better off in the long run, as they continue to tell me on advertisments etc.

A quick glance at the EBS tells me I'm not better off in the long run, for the following simple reasons:

*
- Their Mortgage Rates are not the cheapest & have not been for about 5 years, I reckon. 
*
They give you all this rubbish about the cheapest variable mortgage rate, but everyone knows that you can get cheaper rates by selecting a tracker mortgage from another lending institution - why would I want to pay more, for a different type of mortgage rate that *is also variable* ?



*
- The Rates on their share accounts are very poor*

The EBS don't publish the interest rate they pay all of their share account holders on any of their readily available literature in their branches, don't mention the interest rates on statements & don't like having to answer you when you push them in the branch.

However, after serious effort, I eventually discovered that the EBS pays the miserable sum of *0.25%* per annum on ones savings, in a EBS Share Account (that little passbook, we all cherish so dearly !)

This savings rate is probably one of the worst in the market, so how can having your savings in one of these be better for you in the long run ?

Granted, one might suggest that I move my savings into an alternative product at the EBS - but why should I have to do this, to get a decent interest rate .... and lose my valued membership of the society, where I'd not be a voting member anymore ?


*Weakening Customer Service*

When I go into a local branch, I find that they EBS is cutting back on it's staff at the counter, resultig in longer waiting time to be served.

Less & Less branches now open Saturday mornings than they used to.

Their Internet & Telephone Banking is limited to very basis stuff

How can this be better for me in the long run ?


* Retained Profits At EBS*

The society continues to retain good profits year upon year, but I don't see what these reserves are doing to aid my good in the short or long run.

As a member (aka part owner), Im entitled to a share of the earnings of the society, if there is a distribution.  I've not had any.  Have you ?

Unlike some other mutual societies, the business is not, a not for profit organisation - it's profiting on myself & every other EBS members.   It does not refund us part of our interest paid, or award us additional interest after each years profit is announced.

*EBS to be taken over by Rabobank ?*

The newspapers continue to mention the likely takeover of the EBS by Rabobank, indicating that the EBS is a mutual & as Rabobank is also a mutual, this is the way forward for the EBS (or so some people think).

Why must it be Rabobank ?

Why must I read the views of named, or unnamed, sources in *my (granted, I only own a very small interest in the EBS) society ?

Why can the board of the EBS petition the Government for special legislation to be passed, which will influence the future of *company, without me getting any say on it first ?

How can this be better for me, in the long run ?



* So the big question is .... how am I better off in the long run with the EBS ?*

Cheers

G>


----------



## ajapale (31 Oct 2004)

*EBS means a great deal*

I agree these ads are disingenous and misleading. I feel a complaint to the ASAI coming on! The byline "EBS means a great deal" reminds me of a similar BUPA ad which said "rated highly in the community". Disingenous word play in my opinion.

ajapale

ps: Mods, why is this post which is about an advertising campaign run by a Financial Institution in the demutualisation section? (LOS, Banks and Banking, or even Good Deals / Bad Deals would seem a more sensible location). If, say, UB or AIB or even credit unions ran similar ads would it be moved here? Does this mean that EVERYTHING to do with EBS will end up here?


----------



## Dr Moriarty (31 Oct 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

I'd go a step further in the cynical stakes — if ESB is spending advertising dosh on trumpeting the 'benefits' of its mutual status, is that not a sure-as-eggs early indicator that they're getting ready to _de_mutualise...?

Make sure you're a _'qualifying'_ member, is what I say...  

Dr. M.

_[Edit: P.S. Just spotted the other thread...]_


----------



## XXXAnother PersonXXX (1 Nov 2004)

*moved*

I moved my mortgage and current account a few months ago from EBS. One of the main reasons was because You couldn't lodge foreign cheques! - How backwards is that?

It's like being back in the 50s again.


----------



## N0elC (1 Nov 2004)

*Re: moved*

Hi Garret ! 

Good to hear from you !

Like you, I too find these ads infuriating !

They have some gall promoting the virtues of mutuality, when all the time, they are squandering *our* funds on this pro-management propaganda. 

Once the INBS are nailed down, and Irish people get their windfall cheques from that other erstwhile mutual stalwart, Standard Life, I’d imagine its only a matter of time before the EBS falls to the inevitable pressure to demutualise.


----------



## ClubMan (1 Nov 2004)

*Re: moved*

For what it's worth, one of yesterday's papers (_Indo_?) resurrected the story of _EBS_ pursuing some sort of link-up with _Rabobank_ while retaining their mutual status...


----------



## rainyday (2 Nov 2004)

*Re: moved*



> One of the main reasons was because You couldn't lodge foreign cheques! - How backwards is that?


Funnily enough, EBS used to allow lodgement of FX cheques and I had found them to offer good rates compared to my own back up to around May of this year.



> resurrected the story of *ESB* pursuing some sort of link-up with Rabobank while retaining their mutual status...


What - Rabobank distributing electricity now?


----------



## garrettod (7 Nov 2004)

*Re: moved thread*

Hi

*For The Record* I did not post this thread on the Demutualisation Issues Forum.  It has been moved, without my knowledge & not at my request.   It is a Consumer Issue, not a Demutualisation Issue raised in my original post.

As we all know from previous threads, there is a strong pro-mutual EBS lobby amongst the Mods on this site & I am forced to say that I suspect it has been moved in an attempt to prevent us from highlighting the problems with the EBS to fellow consumers !    .... I am very disappointed with AAM over this behavour.

Kind Regads to Noel & Others above  

Cheers

G>


----------



## garrettod (7 Nov 2004)

*Re: moved thread*

Oh btw,

On the subject of the wonderful EBS, I had reason to drop into the Westmoreland office recently to withdraw funds from my account.  It's a demand account btw.   

Ended up almost having to have an arguement to get my money out, because it was more than €1,500 I was withdrawing & they claim this is there maximum daily limit for customers.   Eh, since when could a company which I own part of, refuse to permit me access to my funds which are held on demand & receiving a crap rate of interest ?

In my personal view, the only way I will be better off in the long run with the EBS, is if it's sold & I get a half decent windfall out of it !

Cheers

G>


----------



## ClubMan (7 Nov 2004)

*Re: moved thread*

I moved the topic from whatever forum it was originally in (can't remember which). When I do this I generally leave a "shadow" link so that the topic still appears in the original forum. It seemed to me to make sense to keep discussion relating to the mutual status of _EBS_ in once place and this forum seemed to be the most appropriate. This was purely an administrative issue and, whatever my own personal views on this issue, there is no ulterior motive or censorship involved.

_Update: thanks to Marion for moving the topic back to what we think was the original location._


----------



## ClubMan (7 Nov 2004)

*Re: moved thread*

*In my personal view, the only way I will be better off in the long run with the EBS, is if it's sold & I get a half decent windfall out of it !*

So presumably you're going to actively work towards getting a suitable motion proposed, supported and carried at the next AGM?


----------



## ninsaga (7 Nov 2004)

*Re: moved thread*

Have to agree about the pooor customer service - I have found often enough that I needed to cattle prod in order to get a response.

ninsaga


----------



## Max Hopper (7 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

My EBS skirmishes have teased out that the senior management are busily lining their pockets with investors funds. A case in point is the establishment of Summit Mutual Funds. Summit Mutual Funds _appointed_ EBS Asset Managers (EBSAM) to manage the funds. Care to hazard a guess as to the employees and directors of EBSAM? Top EBS management, from Mr. McGovern and board pals to the manager of EBS' Savings and Investments department, Sarah Loftus. These cats are taking an EBS salary *and* an EBSAM one. Oh, and probably a generous slice of the *€1.92 million* _earned_ by EBSAM in 2003 while losing money for Summit shareholders.


----------



## rainyday (7 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*



> while losing money for Summit shareholders.


The Summit funds earned an average of 9% in 2003 (the range was from 1% to 18%). No Summit shareholders lost money over 2003.



> Oh, and probably a generous slice of the €1.92 million earned by EBSAM in 2003


This is a serious allegation. Please support it or withdraw it.


----------



## ClubMan (7 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

The _EBS Summit Mutual and Investment Funds_ annual reports should contain full details of remuneration paid to _EBSAM_ and their agents as well as to _Montgomery Oppenheim_.


----------



## rainday (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

I stand corrected, .  EBSAM extracted a mere €1.*1*92 million in 2003 taken from -<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Summit Mutual Funds<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Public Limited Company<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--> Report and Accounts<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->31 December 2003<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Notes to the Accounts<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->7. Related Parties​


> _Each of the directors of Summit Mutual Funds plc at 31 December 2003 hold directorships in the management company, EBS Asset Managers Limited ('EBSAM').<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Summit Mutual Funds plc paid management fees to EBSAM amounting to €1,192,015 during the year._<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The Summit Mutual Funds plc Directors are:<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>Michael Moroney</li><li>Ron Bolger</li><li>John Cullen</li><li>Sarah Loftus</li><li>Ted McGovern</li><li>Paul Montgomery (not an EBS director)</li><li>Barbara Patton</li><li>Yvonne Scannell</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END-->


But the repetition of this headline number has become tedious. Ring EBS for a Summit Mutual Funds Annual Report and a prospectus. The leeches in EBS/EBSAM have it all stitched up tight.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->With regards to the 2003 returns of Summit Mutual funds, I must ask *why now* have certain posters seen fit to adopt a short-term view of their investments?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->But regardless of one's outlook, the Growth fund returned 13.6% _annualised_ in 2003 and *-5.1% since inception* and *6.7% over five years*. Sure beat inflation during the Celtic Cub era, eh?<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->YMMV


----------



## garrettod (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

Hi Clubman,

Thanks for your honesty regarding the thread being moved.  

Thanks also to Marion for her input in returning it to it's original forum.

This thread is a Consumer Matter & not specifically intended to promote demutualistion.   I concede immediately there is risk of it crossing over, but I would rather see it evolve along the lines of how the customers (owners) of EBS can make them listen to us & act on our wishes.

The bottom line here is that the EBS is not acting in the best interest of it's members in my view & apparently, in the view of others here also.   I don't accept that I will be better off in the long run with them & I call on the EBS, or fellow members (customers) to kindly show me how I'll be better off  

Thanks

G>


----------



## rainyday (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

Hi Max - The wording of your original post could be read to imply that the EBS Directors has personally benefited to the tune of the 'mere €1.192 million in 2003'. In the interests of fairness, you may want to clarify if you were implying that the directors personally benefited directly from this income.

The reference to 2003 returns was in answer to your specific allegation ("earned by EBSAM in 2003 while losing money for Summit shareholders"). It is interesting to note that you selectively choose one individual funds when quoting return figures but you lambaste the entire organisation in your rants.


----------



## ClubMan (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

*... but I would rather see it evolve along the lines of how the customers (owners) of EBS can make them listen to us & act on our wishes.*

Speak up and voice your concerns/complaints in person (individually or collectively) at the AGM and/or put them in writing to the society perhaps also suggesting where they could take corrective action to make sure that you and other members benefit from their mutual status?


----------



## Max Hopper (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

Summit Mutual Funds returns - <!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->2003 / inception<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>Stable: -0.4 / -0.4</li><li>Balanced: 10.5 / -12.2</li><li>Global Leaders: 1.5 / -10.5</li><li>Growth: 13.6 / -5.1</li><li>Technology: 22.0 / -8.8</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->*Director's Report*<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->4. Directors' Interest in shares (EOY2003)<!--EZCODE LIST START--><ul><li>Michael Moroney - 8,800</li><li>Ron Bolger - 6,511</li><li>John Cullen - 8.343</li><li>Sarah Loftus - 9,216</li><li>Ted McGovern - 6.473</li><li>Yvonne Scannell - 7,016</li></ul><!--EZCODE LIST END-->No mention of _retained profits_ anywhere in the 2003 Annual Report.


----------



## N0elC (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*



> members benefit from their ... status



From what's gone above, and the debacle that is Standard Life and INBS, isn't members benefitting from mutual status like saying that turkeys benefit from Christmas ?


----------



## ClubMan (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

*From what's gone above, and the debacle that is Standard Life and INBS, isn't members benefitting from mutual status like saying that turkeys benefit from Christmas ?*

The members ultimately own the society and have the power to influence and control how it is run. As such their destiny and that of the society is in their own hands if they have the courage of their convictions to get involved and actively work to right the wrongs that they perceive.


----------



## JohnnieKipper (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

Quote : - Their Mortgage Rates are not the cheapest & have not been for about 5 years, I reckon.

They give you all this rubbish about the cheapest variable mortgage rate, but everyone knows that you can get cheaper rates by selecting a tracker mortgage from another lending institution - why would I want to pay more, for a different type of mortgage rate that is also variable ?

End Quote

Garretod,

What institution/package is better. I'm interested as I will be getting a mortgage shortly. I've used EBS in the past thinking they were the cheapest.


----------



## N0elC (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

Sorry to jump in Garretod, but plenty of providers are cheaper than our friends in the EBS. So much for the benefits of being mutual, eh ?


----------



## ClubMan (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

There's also a list of tracker rates .


----------



## rainyday (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*



> 2003 / inception
> Stable: -0.4 / -0.4
> Balanced: 10.5 / -12.2
> Global Leaders: 1.5 / -10.5
> ...


Where are you getting your numbers from, Max? The figures you quote for performance since inception bear no relation to the graph shown on Page 4 of the latest


----------



## Max Hopper (8 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

Summit Mutual Funds<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Public Limited Company<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Report and Accounts<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->31 December 2003<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Investment Adviser's Report<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->Summit Funds Performance (pg. 2)​Read it and weep.


----------



## garrettod (9 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

Hi

I've previously tried to raise my concerns though:

- correspondance with members of the Board, via e-mail (think it was someone on AAM that discovered that the e-mail addresses of all directors were printed in the Annual Report for the EBS previously ?)

- offering myself as a possible candidate for their small customer meetings or whatever they call them

No response !

Have you previously made contact & had issues addressed by them ? ... if so, would you please provide me with details of who you made contact with etc ? (assuming it's not too personal    )




> This address perhaps ?
> 
> EBS Building Society Registered Office: The EBS Building, 2 Burlington Road, Dublin 4.



Cheers

G>


----------



## ClubMan (9 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

*Have you previously made contact & had issues addressed by them?*

I'm no longer a member myself for the past three years or so and my recent attempt to rejoin failed as I was mis-advised that holding €127 or more in cash in my _Summit_ SSIA would qualify me for membership. Perhaps €127 or more in a _deposit_ SSIA (or another investment/share account) does the trick? Anyway, I passed on some feedback about the [broken link removed] site which lead to an (email) discussion about some other issues (e.g. the "lowest standard variable rate" versus more competitive trackers issue, the continuing lack of current account mortgages and daily calculation of mortgage interest etc.) and an invitation to me to participate in their _Inside Track_ customer focus group which I was unfortunately unable to accept. My comments and feedback were accepted gratefully but I'm not sure what they made of them internally and, not being a member, am in no real position to follow them up.


----------



## rainyday (9 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*



> think it was someone on AAM that discovered that the e-mail addresses of all directors were printed in the Annual Report for the EBS previously


I claim credit for that discovery, G.



> 2003 / inception
> Stable: -0.4 / -0.4


Still doesn't make sense, Max. From their funds calculator, the Stable Investment fund went from 1.019 to 1.033 over the course of 2003, showing a return of 1.37% (not the -0.4% you quote). 

What inception dates are you referring to for each fund?


----------



## Max Hopper (9 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

, the figures are _annualised_ returns. On the Summit Stable fund is a footnote that the fund was launched 17.04.03 . As for the accuracy of EBS' numbers, IANAA (Mam was the bean-counter in the family).<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->e-mail at EBS is <name.surname>@mail.ebs.ie e.g., sarah.loftus@mail.ebs.ie


----------



## rainyday (9 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*



> the figures are annualised returns


Please explain or define.


> On the Summit Stable fund is a footnote that the fund was launched 17.04.03


Still doesn't make sense- their online fund calculator is showing fund prices for that fund before those dates.


----------



## Max Hopper (9 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

I suggest you call (or better, write, as  ).<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->On page 3 (Director's Report), item 1. is a reconfirmation -





> <snip><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The Stable Fund, which only invests in cash, produced a negative return of -0.4% since inception in April. This fund is not open for initial investment but is available for switching between funds when markets are turbulent. The Summit Mutual Funds were launched in May 2001. The Balanced Fund, which holds miminum of 33% in deposits and government gilts, has has a negative return of -12% since launch. The Growth Fund is -5% over the same period.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END-->The Global Leaders Fund invests in companies with a market capitalization in excess of US $10 billion and has had a negative return of -26%. and the Technology Fund -22% for the period since launch.<!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--><!--EZCODE BR START--><!--EZCODE BR END--></snip>


As Mam oft said, "Figures lie and liars figure."


----------



## garrettod (10 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

Clubman

Thanks for the info.   

AFAIK, it's a simple rule with Building Societies, get a passbook and a members share account if you want membership.  Anything else won't carry a guarantee & mixed signals from young & unsure staff are not the way to go imho.


Rainyday,

Sorry, can't recall if it were you who pointed out the EBS Directors, e-mail addresses.  However, if you want the credit, I'll believe you (this time  )

Cheers

G>


----------



## ClubMan (10 Nov 2004)

*Re: The EBS: "Your Better Off In The Long Run..."*

As it happens I seem to recall that it was the _Sarah Loftus_ mentioned above who I was dealing with in relation to passing on feedback about _Inside Track_ and the society in general.


----------

