# Back Boiler / Stove



## anns (20 Aug 2008)

I have an open fire and want to replace it with a stove.  I have a back boiler but when I got a plumber to look at it, he said there was no pump.  The fire only ever heated a radiator in the bathroom and the water in the cylinder.  The plumber has said that he needs to run pipes from fire place up through roof to bedroom and over to the hot press. He needs to install a new cylinder.  He has given me a quote for 2200 which is labour and parts.  I don't have a clue about any of this and just wondering if this is what should be done.  He said he could install the pump in the sitting room beside the chimney breast but would not guarantee that it would work.  The only real guarantee is to go back up to the cylinder.  The house was built around 1970 - I bought it a few years ago and I'm gradually repaired botched DIY jobs - it's a money pit !!.  He said I would need an electrician to do the wiring - about 150euro.  Then it's 995 for the stove - another 1200 for the fireplace.  I have an oil heating system but I just want an alternative to this.  Thanks for any help / guidance.


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## DavyJones (20 Aug 2008)

I don't fully understand. Do you have a back boiler in the fire place? if so, you would have pipes going from there to the cylinder.
 you don't need a pump because back boilers work on gravity circulation I.E  water expands and rises when heated naturally and travels up the flow pipe in the cylinder, where it heats the water in the cylinder indirectly, the cooler water than "falls" back to the back boiler and is reheated and so on.
If you have a backboiler and oil boiler then I can assume you already have a dual coiled cylinder. you will need one if you don't have one.

The price seems ok if he is to run pipes and fit cylinder etc. He can fit the pump in the  hot press as this is where the stove will connect into the radiator system of the house.
I know it may be confusing but this is how it should work. direct line from stove to cylinder so when you fire stove you automatically get hot water (no pump). near the cylinder a thermostat will be fitted that will read the temperture of the water from the stove. when it reaches a preset temperture it will send power to the pump which will turn on and pump water around to the radiator system.


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## anns (20 Aug 2008)

Hi,

There was a back boiler in the fire place but it only ever heated the water in the cylinder and one radiator in the bathroom upstairs.  The plumber has said the pipes are not the right size (house built circa 1970) and he needs to repipe.  I don't have the dual coiled cylinder that you mentioned.  The plumber said he will install one and install the pump in the hotpress beside the cylinder with the thermostat.  He had mentioned putting a pump beside the chimney brest but then said no, that he couldn't guarantee that it would work and would not do it.  This for me would have seemed a cheaper solution but he said there is no guarantee that it would work.  I had a cold house with only a warm sitting room when I had the fire on with no oil on.  I want to have two solutions for heating the house - oil and solid fuel so that if either price goes through the roof then I have an alternative.  And a stove I have read is a good environmental option - most of the heat not going up the chimney.  
Thanks for your quick reply.  Really appreciate it.


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## DavyJones (20 Aug 2008)

Do you know the size of the pipes? It seems like you have been adviced right and the price isn't too bad. FYI an open fire is about 20% efficient and a stove is up to 70%ish.


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## anns (20 Aug 2008)

Unfortunately I don't know the size of the pipes.  I can see one pipe exposed which looks about an inch.  There was a wall of bricks built around the chimney breast giving me an off centre fire place - that's why i started the job - hated those bricks.  Knocked them all down and discovered lovely centred chimney.  Went looking for fireplace and guy in shop suggested a stove.  Did research on the net and found that they are way better.  So my original budget has gone out the window.  I just wanted to know if that price was way off.    Do you think going down the route of a stove is a good idea.  I want to do the job right now and not have to do it again.  Do you happen to know how is a chimney cleaned once a stove is installed - is it specialist or can you DIY.  I would have always used brushes and cleaned it out myself.  Thanks for all your help.  This is a great forum.  Found it via google!!


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## DavyJones (20 Aug 2008)

Yes it is a great site alright 

I would fit a stove anyday over an open fire/backboiler. Take it from me in five to ten years there will be no open fires going into any new builds.

If your pipes are inch there is no need to change them. You need atleast inch pipes for natural circulation to be successful. Check your cylinder, can you tell me how many connections are on it? 4 or 6?

We fitted a stanley last week, supplied cylinder,pump,flue elbow,2 ft of flue, (same colour as stove) pipe stat, piped stove into heating system etc and the cost was just over €1400 inc Vat. It took 2 days but the cylinder was 3 ft from stove so less materials.

Whatever or not you could do it yourself I'm afraid I can't answer because I don't know your DIY skill level, however I would advice using a professional as these appliances have to be safely fitted.

Edit: sorry, just re-read your post, Cleaning the chimney is quite easy and if you have brushes, than do it your self. Just besure and hang an old sheet over the  opening of the fore plaxce to minimise dust/soot entering room.


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## Paddylast (20 Aug 2008)

Hope you don't mind my asking a question here as I am doing practically the same thing as anns. House built in 1975 and we installed a dual central heating i.e. back boiler and oil. Back boiler system is brilliant - heats all rads upstairs without turning on pump - heats rads downstairs with pump switched on but heating level is quite low unless we pile on the coal and logs at a great rate. However, we are now doing up the sittingroom and want to have the option of keeping the boiler but installing an inset stove. Can I continue to use the back boiler with a stove. Any recommendation on what type of stove would be suitable. Want an inset one rather that a stand alone one. Would appreciate any advice.


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## DavyJones (20 Aug 2008)

Your back boiler is a metal box full of water that sits in the fireplace so the fire is actually touching it. It has two pipes off it. Disconnect the two pipes and rip out the back boiler. 
Any style of stove (there are 100's) will come with a back boiler of varying outputs I.E can heat 6 rads or 10 rads and so on and they will come without backboilers (these are called space heaters, they only heat the space they are in). A stove is a personal choice so you will get one that will meet your requirements.
The stove is exactly like your existing system as in there is fire that is heating a metal box full of water. So you are replacing one metal box for an other. Stairght forward job, plumbing wise.

BTW, I would rather a stove sits into a room a little to emit more heat into the space


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## Paddylast (20 Aug 2008)

You're a mine of information DavyJones. Thanks for your clear and concise answer.  No excuse now for getting things wrong now!


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## anns (20 Aug 2008)

Davy

Will check with plumber on pipes but he did say they were not sufficient.  Regard cleaning chimney - sorry didn't phrase in properly - i do clean the chimney myself now because i have an open fire and yes, do use the sheet trick.  But i'm wondering about cleaning it when I install the stove.

Paddy - I've been going around looking at stoves the last few weeks.  The inset stoves are way more expensive than the free standing ones and a lot harder to find.  I looked an an inset stove which would heat 6 rads - it was 2000.  The same free standing one was 995 (matt) or if you want enamel it was 1200.  But guy in shop said that enamel chips easily.  Also the heat emitted into the room is greater from a free standing stove than an inset one.   I looked in a lot of places and you can get free standing stoves but a lot of shops like builders providers just hand you a brochure and give you no information.  I went into a shop here in sligo that deals specifically with stoves and fireplaces and they were a mine of information.  I hadn't a clue what I was looking for so I found the builder provider places useless. 

One other thing i found out - wood fireplaces not recommended with stoves - marble or granite.

Hope some of this helps. 

Thanks again 

Ann.


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## Paddylast (21 Aug 2008)

Thanks for that info. anns. Can't believe the different in price in the inset and free standing stoves. Any point in going North I wonder?   In my case it is as much about aesthetics as heating really as we would only use the fire ocassionally as a back up. You've got me thinking about my present fireplace which is a 1970s (wide and low -hip height) marble, which i was considering taking out and replacing with a more slimline/taller granite one.  It's all getting a lot more expensive than I had bargain for!!


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## anns (21 Aug 2008)

Paddy

I haven't tried the North yet! Marble fireplace - a simple one - i've been quoted 1500.

I'm gonna post this question separately and see if anyone knows where the best prices are.

By the way, I got a quote for a stove today in Sligo - heats 6 rads - free standing one for 1400 - think the 995 one is looking good !!

My budget has sky rocketed since I began this so you're not alone 

ann.


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## Beckie (2 Sep 2008)

apologies for hijacking your post Ann,
we want to do similar job. We have two fireplaces and chimneys back to back. One fireplace has a back boiler. It heats water in cylindar and upstairs radiators. There is no circulation pump. 

1. Can we put boiler off both fireplaces - we hope to put a stove in fireplace without boiler?
2. Can we put circulation pump on current system?  There is a circualting pump on oil burner


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## Andyvo (23 Feb 2009)

I have recently connected a towel rail radiator to an open fire back boiler gravity fed system with a direct cylinder. unfortunately the towel rail radiator doesn't get hot , could i put a pump on the branches to the towel rail and if so what size pump would it be? Also the house is a bungalow if that makes any difference.


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## DavyJones (23 Feb 2009)

It is real old school. 

 Couple of important things to remember. Use a stainless steel/copper towel rail,any metal or alloy that won't corride under constant exposure to fresh water or it will rust to bits in no time, bad for you, as bits of it will containment your hot water supply.

For best results, you would have a seconardy return. this is basically a loop from the top pipe leaving cylinder, (Hot draw off), instead of this pipe stopping at the last tap it would return to the cylinder at a point below the top pipe. Your pump would be on this line.

Chances are your cylinder only has four connections, primary flow, primary return, hot draw off and cold feed. Have you just tee'd off the PF and PR?

You will need a pump like this http://www.wilo.ie/cps/rde/xchg/ie-en/layout.xsl/430.htm. there are many different makes and models. Shop around they are commonly known as brass pumps. they are made of brass for the same reasons as above.


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## unsurediy (23 Feb 2009)

after some helpful advice from davyjones we have decided to go with our plan of disconnecting our back boiler and removing fire place surround and placing a super stanley 9 second hand range in its place we have a pump already for existing back boiler not sure bout dual coiled cylinder though ?


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## DavyJones (23 Feb 2009)

If you have two heat sources, EG oil boiler and back boiler/stove, then you should have a dual coil cylinder. 

Easiest way to find out is to count the pipes directly attached to it. 

Normaly four = single coil and six = double coil.


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## Andyvo (24 Feb 2009)

Thanks davyjones 
yes i have tee'd off the PF and the PR and yes it is a stainless steel towel rail. Do you mean for best result i have to Tee off the hot water draw off pipe to the towel rail and loop the last tap connection back to the cylinder with an essex boss back and put a pump on that?


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## DavyJones (24 Feb 2009)

Thats exactly what I mean. The hottest of the water will be at the top of the cylinder, you will need atleast 60c for the rail to be anyway effective. The Essex flange should be tapped into the bottom of the top third of the cylinder.

Depending on your skill, a Surrey flange may be a simpler option.

However this may be impractial in an existing property and tapping in to the PF and PR may be the best option.


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## clonboy (1 Dec 2009)

*Re: Back Boiler / Stove/ davy jones*

question that davy could answer best maybe,

i have a stanley stove SF in my kitchen, the circulating pump is also there, however i am waiting for the pipe stat and pump to be wired, so in the meantime can i use the stove, (any risks)  i have a  triple coil cylinder system ( solar and oil also in use)

just to be sure, how do i know which pipe is the the pipe stat to be fitted to, is it the same one that the circulating pump is installed on.

thanks in advance


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## Zerograze (22 Dec 2009)

Sorry to hi-jack..
Bit of a weird question.Is it possible to get a stove that it is possible to lock or secure?Maybe by easily removing the handle.
Reason for this is my parents are putting in a Tara Stove with back boiler because my dad who is ill has an addiction with fires and we cant keep him away from building up hugely excessive fires which can be very dangerous.
We thought we were going to sort it by putting in a stove instead of a open fire.On a recent visit to my new house my dad had a great time with my new newly installed stove.So it became clear putting in a new tara stove would not be the only answer to solve our problem.Any of your thought would be great...??


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## clonboy (22 Dec 2009)

the stanlet erin model that i have has a removeable handle,


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## jules3 (26 Sep 2011)

*stove*

i was just wondering when installing a solid fuel stove with a back boiler do u have to have the water pipes looped??or can ya run the two pipes under the ground from the hotpress to the stove???


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## hastalavista (27 Sep 2011)

jules3 said:


> i was just wondering when installing a solid fuel stove with a back boiler do u have to have the water pipes looped??or _can ya run the two pipes under the ground from the hotpress to the stove_???



_No_, the system must be capable of gravity flow with no pumps


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