# Need to move close to family.. NE stopping us... What to do?



## HelpStressed (15 May 2012)

This is a long winded story so please bear with me....

My house is currently only worth about €90,000k. Balance remaining on the mortgage is €223,000.  

We have three children, two of whom are only 15 mths old and 7 wks old. Eldest is 8.  

We have NO family support what so ever where we are living.  I'm due to return to work in September after my maternity leave is up.  

My partner does have a house over where his family reside.  He had that house as his own primary residence with his then partner, before he met me.  When they split, he held onto it.. He is now living with me in my house.  He has his property rented out, is registered with the tenants board and everything is all legit.  

We are both on shift work (I will resume shift work when I return to work).  They're ten hour shifts, so we'll have to work on opposing shifts, some of which will overlap at ungodly hours of morning and night, so therein lies a problem with childminding..... Hence us wanting... no NEEDING to move over to where his family reside. As it is, we cannot afford creche/childminding, despite both of us having "GOOD" jobs... What we earn on paper, is very much less to what we actually take home.

Are ye following all of this??!

My quandry is... in order for us to have ANY sort of quality of life. We need to move over to be near the inlaws. And fast.  Living where we are right now is not working for us anymore. 

I'm in negative equity by at LEAST €120,000. There's not a hope in hell of me being able to foot that bill. Was on to my lender to day and they said it would have to be paid over a ten year period.  That is OUT of the question.  That's providing the place with even sell..... NOTHING is selling in this area at the moment.

Would I be better off renting my property out?  See what I can get a month for it? I'd be hit with a tax bill every year though wouldn't I?  My partner is.. as he's registered with the tenant's board.. I'm aware that all expenses can be written off against the tax.. But to be honest with you, we are not in a financial position to be able to realistically hang onto this house.  I just want shot of the damn thing..... But I'm ALWAYS going to be liable for the shortfall if I sell it aren't I?

I'm not in arrears ..... yet.  Our savings and completely dried up so It's only a matter of time before I start to miss repayments. The bank have discussed with me an interest only option but that's really of no addition to us.. We would like to be able to move on with our lives somewhat, by moving to be near our family, so granny and grandad could mind their grandchildren during the MANY unsociable hours we will be working. 

I really need to see a financial advisor to see what my REAL options are.  There is not point in surmising... Well "this" could happen, or "that" could happen.  

Where am I likely to get GOOD, sound, independent financial advise to cater for me?  All financial advisors I see on line are really only there to help with investing, mortgages, pensions, overseas properties etc.  

I've been onto MABS and they really only told me they deal with how I can budget better this is NOT what I need help with.

Sorry if my thread is completely all over the place.  Bit like my head at the moment.  Stress is creeping in and post natal depression doesn't help.

Any guidance or to put me in contact with someone who could advise me on what to do, where to go next would be genuinely appreciated. 

Kind regards.. x


----------



## niceoneted (15 May 2012)

I would suggest you start with the money makeover section that is to be found here 
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=61289
When you put it all down for people to see sometimes things can be pointed out that will help that we sometimes inadvertently miss ourselves. 

Is there any way you can look at an alternate child minding solution, such as au pair (not sure about the unsocial hours there though) or a retired/widowed/older neighbour (that has grown family perhaps). 

Are your jobs transferable? How easy will this be.


----------



## Bronte (15 May 2012)

Welcome to AAM Helpstressed, hope you're feeling a little better today. As the previous poster suggested can you post up as much details as possible of all your figures for mortgage, rent, income etc.

If I understand you correctly your bank will let you sell the property and repay the negative equity over 10 years? Is that correct?

Any mother with a seven week old is bound to not be herself at the moment. But if you post up as much details as possible we may be able to give you some ideas.

(An au pair would not be recommended for very young babies)


----------



## Allison1707 (15 May 2012)

Hi Helpstressed
Just a quickie...
Your partner has a house over where his family are. What is the situation with the tennants?
Could you possibly move in there in the future?
Could you go on interest only with your own house and rent that out in the future?

Good luck as you have your hands full and again if you could post up figures on both your house and your partners things might seem a bit clearer.


----------



## HelpStressed (16 May 2012)

Thanks for all of your replies.

Basically, we would be moving to my partner's house.  The tenants would need to be given a month's notice (rent paid by the month) to leave the house.  Shame, because they're a lovely couple with young children and it would be an awful inconvenience for them to move. 

I have looked at renting out my house, where we are now.  The going rate in the area is between 600 and 700 euro a month.  My mortgage repayment at the moment is 1080 euro.... at the current variable rate. Not fortunate enough to be on a tracker.  

We need to move to be close to his family as alternative childminding options aren't available to us.  I will be returning to work in mid september on ten hour shifts.  Working 6 days on and 4 days off. Morning, noon and night.  As will my partner.  We will have to work on opposing shifts so need grandparents to mind the kids at night and in the early mornings. Au pair is NOT an option as we have only a 3 bed semi and physically do not have the space for an au pair.  Jobs are NOT transferable..... The location of the job isn't the problem, it's the location of where we're living now is the problem!  

I have spoken to the bank.... and just came out with asking them if I handed the keys back to them, .... I'd be liable for the shortfall... Which would be close to €100,000, over a period of TEN years. This we CANNOT do.  So renting the property perhaps at interest only mortgage (if the bank permits us) would seem to be our only option.  I have not fallen into arrears yet... Never intended to.... But with further wage cuts a certainty over the next god knows how many years, interest only mortgage will be ok for a year or two..... But we will never be able to sustain the mortgage on this house. It's only a matter of time before I fall into arrears. 

I really do not want to be dragged through the courts in the long run.  I cannot see myself ever being able to pay for this house.  It's not sustainable. Even if we rent it out, agree interest only with the bank for a year or two.... What happens after that?  The house isn't going to be worth NEAR what the remainder of the mortgage is even then.. We will not be able to keep paying interest only for ever..... OUr salaries are just going to keep going down and down, until basically, we've nothing left.  

If some one on here can advise me on what my best option is or to point me in the right direction as to who to get advise from, I would be extremely grateful. I really want to know what can the banks do.  What are they obliged to do.  I heard of that Laura lady recently getting BOI down to 18000 payable over 6 years ??! She surrendered her house?  

Also, could I surrender my house to the bank and carry the negative equity with me to my partner's home?  What are the can and cannots that are available to me?

I have been onto MABS and they're really of no help to me.  They can only help me budget. But my situation is a bit different.  I have also been onto a few financial advisors, but they're all the same.  They only deal with investments, pensions, retirements... etc....

Has any of this legislation that the government keep prattling on about actually come into law yet?  The legislation that may help those of us in NE/ mortgage problems?  Another thing too, if I'm not resident in my house and am renting it out..... Because it won't be my "primary residence" could I lose it as it won't fall under the new legislation?

So many questions..... Anyway, I'd appreciate some feedback.  If you need any more details, please ask away.  Baby needs feeding.  Good evening x


----------



## HelpStressed (16 May 2012)

Just one more thing while I think of it.... I originally took the mortgage out on this house back in 2004 for approx 195,000. But due to a relationship breakdown, in 2007.. Had to remortgage for 232000 in 2008.  Old lender was EBS.  New lender is KBC.  I entered into a fixed rate with them for 3 years which ended in August 2011.  I remember asking them at the time, could I go onto the tracker mortgage and I was just told NO. So I took it at that and since then have been on the variable.  My partner is similar to me in that he is with KBC, fixed rate ended and he was automatically placed onto the tracker???!!! We both left our fixed agreements with the same bank just a few months apart.... How is it that he was permitted to go onto tracker, but I wasn't?

Regards.


----------



## truthseeker (16 May 2012)

Hi OP,
While you are giving long informative posts on what hours you have to work, what you want to do, what you cant do etc.... the information you need to give here to get the best advice is financial.

There is a money makeover section where there is a template you can fill out.

In simple terms you need to post all incomings and all outgoings of both yourself and your partner.

Otherwise no one knows what to advise you.


----------



## HelpStressed (16 May 2012)

Ok so.. Here it goes:


Age:
37
Spouse’s/Partner's age:
30

Annual gross income from employment or profession:
E40,000
Annual gross income spouse:
E55,000

Type of employment:
Both public sector employees (emergency services)

Expenditure pattern:
Savings diminished. Living from cheque to cheque. 

Rough estimate of value of home
E135,000
Mortgage on home
E222,000 approximately remaining - 32 years left.
Mortgage provider:
KBC
Type of mortgage: Variable rate
Interest rate
4.35% I think.

Other borrowings – car loans/personal loans etc
Car loan - €7900
Do you pay off your full credit card balance each month?
\no credit card - got rid of it. 

Savings and investments:
Savings have gone. 

Do you have a pension scheme?
Only the public sector pension that I pay into every week .

Do you own any investment or other property?
Nope.

Ages of children:
8, 15 months and 8 weeks.

Life insurance:
Yes.

What specific question do you have or what issues are of concern to you?

I am looking for advice on what I can do with my home. We need to move. I have explained in detail in my previous post. 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## HelpStressed (16 May 2012)

I omitted what my partner's house is:

Remaining mortgage: €290,000

Current value (estimate) - €200,000

Remaining time left on mortgage - 32 years

Currently rented out to tenants who pay €900 a month. 

Mortgage repayments are €1065 a month. 

Lender - KBC

On a tracker mortgage.  Not sure of the interest rate.  Sorry.  

He has credit union loans of approx 11,000. 4 years left to pay on those. 

Is registered with the tenants board so is liable for tax on all rental income.

Is that all you need in relation to him?

Regards..


----------



## HelpStressed (16 May 2012)

The combined gross salary is just that.  Gross salary.  Our actual take home is much less. My take home every week is €406 and his is €358.  Out of that we have bills electricity and gas, after school care, diesel for the car, food shopping, clothes shopping for the children when they need it.  Not much for the baby yet but for the 15 mth old and the 8 yrs old, I seem to be buying stuff for them every other week. Once off payments like car tax, doctors bills etc add up too. You ask "what on earth am I spending the rest of my money on".  Believe me, when it comes around to mortgage time, we JUST about make it. What we *make* on paper and what we actually take home I'm afraid are two completely different figures.

We don't socialise, go to the cinema or go on holidays. We pay €35 a month for sky tv.  We pay 29 a month for broadband. We have no landline.  Just our two mobile phones. I don't go to a hairdressers, haven't bought myself anything clothes/shoes wise since WELL before christmas.  Himself the same. We shop weekly in lidl or aldi and go to the local butcher for the meat.

My partner also has to pay the shortfall of his mortgage every month too. He'll be due to pay tax on that property before October. We estimate a tax bill of about 4000 or so.  With our savings gone, we'll probably have to borrow it.


----------



## niceoneted (16 May 2012)

You need to start a spending diary as soon as possible. This means writing down every last penny you spend be it €1 on a bottle of water of €50 on petrol. Then review it after a month and see where you can cut back - unnecessary spending - newspapers, magazines, overspending on shopping. Plan meals in advance, and start shopping in Lidl/aldi to get deals on fruit and veg and plan dinners around that. 
You could add in your post what is your actual take home pay. Also are you maxing out on all tax reliefs, med relief etc. 
Is there any saying in the credit union? Can you off set some of these against the loans?
Am I correct in thinking that if you move to your partners home that you will then be commuting to your jobs as they are non transferable? If so what are the likely additional petrol/diesel costs? And will this not counteract the spending - although I know it is for child care purposes mostly.


----------



## HelpStressed (16 May 2012)

cashier said:


> You know they do give good advise, maybe you shouldn't dismiss them outright.




I have phones MABS three times..... The three times I phoned them, all three individuals told me they could not be of assistance *sigh*


----------



## HelpStressed (16 May 2012)

Sorry NiceOneTed, I edited my post before you replied 

I have included my take home pay in the post above there too.  I've cut out spending on all non necessaries like magazines etc.  I'm blue in the face contacting the tax office to make sure I'm getting what I'm entitled to... I'm not entitled to anything only the single person's tax allowance. I've checked!

When we move to my partner#s house, we will be closer to work... Therefore saving on diesel.


----------



## Berni (16 May 2012)

HelpStressed said:


> The combined gross salary is just that.  Gross salary.  Our actual take home is much less. My take home every week is €406 and his is €358.



Is something being deducted at source from those? On those salaries your combined take home should be almost €1200


----------



## niceoneted (16 May 2012)

Are there payments going at source from your wages to the CU perhaps before you get the €406 and €358. If you work in the emergency services do you get any shift allowances and is this extra or included in what you say above.


----------



## truthseeker (17 May 2012)

Hi Op,
There is some kind of discrepancy between what you say you earn and what you say you take home, can you check payslips to see what is being deducted at source?

TBH - at the figures you are posting, if you are losing that much in tax, usc, etc.. it might be worth calculating out if it is worth the 40k person giving up work.
I mean genuinely - what is the point of working long shifts for such little take home pay - it comes out at 18,616 - and out of that you can take commute costs, childcare, cost of working clothes/lunches etc.. 

You really need to show every little detail here. I notice you have not included incomings of child benefit for example. Nor have you listed any outgoings like bills or costs of insurance policies, amount of repayments to credit union etc...

What you seem to be proposing is finding a way of getting you both into a house where you can work opposing shifts for very little take home and each not see much of the other - in order to save the cost of childcare.
It sounds horrible.
Would it not be a better quality of life decision to stay where you are with one person not working? In theory a 55k salary will support 2 people with 3 children on a mortgage repayment of 1000 a month. You also get child benefit, you may get FIS if only one of you is earning. Your partners house is almost being covered by its rent.

Unless there are some huge outgoings that I cant see I am not sure why this is not do-able - it just sounds like you need to budget better. Which is what MABS have been telling you?

Obviously this is an opinion without seeing detailed incomings and outgoings.


----------



## Ceist Beag (17 May 2012)

OP can you try and put down the difference in cost between your current situation and if you rented your home and moved into your partners home? From what I can see you are talking about an extra €200 per month due to the fall in income from rent (you say you get €900 per month for your partners home and expect about €700 per month for your home). Would there be any other costs (extra commute costs or such although you say these will be reduced)? From what I can see this is the only relevant information to look at here - if you can afford the extra cost then what else is holding you back from simply renting your home and moving to the other house? Agree with other posters tho, with a combined salary of 95K I would expect you both to have a combined take home pay of over 1K per week. I don't understand how your partner is taking home less than you when he is on a salary of 15K more than you? Is he putting a lot into a pension or something?


----------



## DaisyD2 (17 May 2012)

Folks, Its the Pension levies on Public Servants as well as pre levy  Pension deductions that account for the discrepancy between Gross &  net salary figures. Public servants always paid into pensions, took out  loans based on salary earnings and have been savaged by double blow of  Extra Pension levies & Pay cuts on top of tax/usc increases. 

They could never have foreseen or budgeted for 15-23% reductions to take  home pay that are being experienced and I would hazard a guess public  sector make up larger proportion of arrears then private sector. 

Helpstressed, only you & your partner can really sit down over the maths - the incomings, outgoings, family, children & life you would like to have and work out whats best for your Family. Forget the nurse, there has to be more behind scenes of that - nobody has been able to figure out how she managed to get such a write down for what amounts to a lifestyle choice to just "hand back" keys!

Don't be afraid to go ask for interest only on BOTH properties, no shame in it. You have very young family to take care of. Theres wiggle room with every bank. Use time to decide which house suits best & use shortfall to clear short term debt, well done getting rid of credit card for start - wish I could! Lol

Theres always a solution & your situation is not bad, don't let "negative equity" be negative mindset, its just a number, your both young & in fulltime employment. Interest only (or be cheeky, ask for payment holiday, particularily 30yro, loads of time there to extend term a couple of years to bring down payments). Your in a good place to get through next couple of rough years. Be well & stay strong!


----------



## DaisyD2 (17 May 2012)

They were not off topic! They very much relate to the take home pay of the OP & written as reply to posters asking about the discrepincies in the Gross & Net pay!


----------



## kaza (17 May 2012)

*I really do not want to be dragged through the courts in the long run. I cannot see myself ever being able to pay for this house. It's not sustainable. Even if we rent it out, agree interest only with the bank for a year or two.... What happens after that? The house isn't going to be worth NEAR what the remainder of the mortgage is even then.. We will not be able to keep paying interest only for ever..... OUr salaries are just going to keep going down and down, until basically, we've nothing left. 

If some one on here can advise me on what my best option is or to point me in the right direction as to who to get advise from, I would be extremely grateful. I really want to know what can the banks do. What are they obliged to do. I heard of that Laura lady recently getting BOI down to 18000 payable over 6 years ??! She surrendered her house? *

Ok so from reading your post you want to know who is the best person to speak with about how to get rid of your house, i.e. sell it? You have done the first thing I would suggest and that is speak with your bank as to what your options are, i.e. sell house and pay shortfall back over ten years. I would say the next thing to do if you really want to get rid of the house is go and speak to a solicitor, I can see them as being the best to tell you exactly what your other options are, if any.

From the top of my head your two options are: 1. Sell you (but owe shortfall), or 2. Rent out house (possibly at interest only). But neither of these options are what you want. To be honest I have not heard of KBC doing debt right down, which I think is what you are looking for - but I might be wrong. With regards the new bankruptcy laws which you mentioned, I am not sure you would qualify for these based on you and your husbands earnings - but again, the best person I think that can answer this for you is a solicitor.

Based on the information you gave, as other posters have already stated, your take home pay of €406 pw based on €40K and your partners €358 pw based on €55K really does not add up. This website is quiet good (with option to state you are public sector) for calculating what your tax home pay should be http://taxcalc.eu/.  And really your figures should be closer to €578 for you and €692 for your partner. But then again maybe there is something you did not mention that we are not aware of? Also you have your child benefit for the three children as well.

The reason I mention this is simply because myself and my husband would be on slightly higher but similar gross salaries to you both. We have two homes, once of which we rent out. Both mortgages are a fair bit higher than your two mortgages as well, so our monthly repayments are quiet a bit higher. But on our salary we can pay main mortgage and also pay towards other mortgage each month as rent does not go anywhere near full repayment. We have creche fees each month as well - and we can manage. I really really don't mean that as a condescending, I mean it as, it is possible and doable based on what you say your gross salary. So there must be something going on somewhere with your money?

With regards to whether you should have been entitled to a tracker rate when you fixed rate ended (like your partner was), depends in your initial mortgage contract. Have a read of it and you should see something along the lines of "at the end of a fixed rate, the mortgagor should be offered a tracker rate...." - this is probably what was in your partner's contract. But no harm in checking your contract just incase (if you do not have a copy the bank should be able to supply you with one).

Also with regards paying a tax bill on your house if you rent it out - your tax bill would probably be a lot less than your partners. You are entitled to write off 75% of the interest you pay in your mortgage each year, seen as you are probably on an interest rate of double your partners rate you would have more to right off each year. Plus you would be getting a lot less rent per month - hence less tax liability.

*For example:*
Based on his mortgage details if he was on something like 1.1% above the ECB rate, he is probably paying about €6,000 a year in interest. He can write off 75% of this which means €4,500. He is getting €900 per month rent - €10,800 per year. So he can write off 4.5K from that, which means he is liable to pay tax on €6,300 per year (plus he can obviously write off other expenses to bring this down).

Where as with you, based on your mortgage details, you are paying about €9,500 per year in interest. You can write off 75% of this which means €7,125. You say you might get €600 per month rent - €7,200 per year. So you can write that amount off each year, plus any other expenses - meaning you will probably carry a loss each year and not have to pay any tax.


----------



## DaisyD2 (17 May 2012)

The reason for discrepancies are public sector pension levies


----------



## kaza (17 May 2012)

This website takes into account the public sector pension levies - http://taxcalc.eu/ - there is still a big discrepancy in their weekly take home wage, regardless of the public sector pension levies.

Gross salary of €55K with €358 pw take home pay does not add up? Private sector employee on this salary who is say contributing 5% towards a pension would have a weekly take home pay of around €690 per week - where as a public sector employee should have a weekly take home pay of about €650. That is almost a €300 difference?

Gross salary of €40K with €406 pw take home pay does not add up? Private sector employee on this salary who is say contributing 5% towards a pension would have a weekly take home pay of around €560 per week - where as a public sector employee should have a weekly take home pay of about €538. That is about a €150 difference?

Meaning a shortfall of €450 per week in their net wages.


----------



## idkwatmi (18 May 2012)

I am also public sector and can confirm that there is a definite under value on those take home wages even after pensions and everything else.   I’m pointing this out because perhaps looking at these figures you are getting more stressed about the situation than you need to be. Your payslip should be able to give you your correct take home pay.


----------



## xeresod (18 May 2012)

kaza said:


> This website takes into account the public sector pension levies - http://taxcalc.eu/ - there is still a big discrepancy in their weekly take home wage, regardless of the public sector pension levies.
> 
> Gross salary of €55K with €358 pw take home pay does not add up? Private sector employee on this salary who is say contributing 5% towards a pension would have a weekly take home pay of around €690 per week - where as a public sector employee should have a weekly take home pay of about €650. That is almost a €300 difference?
> 
> ...




It's more complicated that a flat 5% pension contribution.


The basic rates (for the civil service) is:



1½% of pensionable remuneration plus 3½% of net pensionable remuneration for their own pension
1½% of pensionable remuneration for the spouses’/children’s pension

Then the newer pension levy is on a sliding scale:


First  €15,000 of earnings is exempt
5% on next €5,000 of  earnings
10% on earnings between  €20,000 and €60,000
10.5%  on earnings above €60,000
(not forgetting the other deductions everybody has for PAYE, PRSI & USC!)


----------



## kaza (19 May 2012)

xeresod said:


> It's more complicated that a flat 5% pension contribution.
> 
> 
> The basic rates (for the civil service) is:
> ...



I only referred to the flat 5% pension contribution when I was talking about a private sector employee


----------

