# Thousands may get upgrades as errors in Leaving Cert calculated grades system identified



## Brendan Burgess (30 Sep 2020)

Leaving Cert: 6,500 students awarded lower grade due to code errors
					

Government will work with colleges to give places to those who missed out




					www.irishtimes.com
				




It would explain a lot.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Sep 2020)

Some of the maths and English grades seem out...

_On RTÉ News at One, Minister for Social Protection Heather Humphreys said that the priority will be to inform any students whose grades were impacted by the failure with the Leaving Certificate calculated grades logarithm._


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## Saavy99 (30 Sep 2020)

Another big mess, 10% of students affected.


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## Purple (2 Oct 2020)

Yes, and some are calling for the Minister to resign. She didn't order this and didn't arrange it but apparently she should be able to code and should have been able to go back in time and put it right.


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## HollyBud (2 Oct 2020)

> Yes, and some are calling for the Minister to resign. She didn't order this and didn't arrange it but apparently she should be able to code and should have been able to go back in time and put it right.



Nobody is saying she should have been able to go back in time however she should put it right, yes.

Who do you think should be accountable if anyone? Should there be any resignations or should there be a "sure these things happen" attitude?


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Oct 2020)

HollyBud said:


> however she should put it right,



How can she put this right?

Start the whole process from scratch. 
Issue revised points
Cancel all CAO offers 
Issue new offers based on the revised points. 

There really is no solution. 

The best they can do is to offer the courses people want to start next year. And then that disadvantages next year's Leaving Cert students as there will be fewer places available for them. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Oct 2020)

HollyBud said:


> Who do you think should be accountable if anyone?



The coder? 
The person responsible for testing? 
The person in charge of the project? 

Very hard to know. 

Brendan


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## Purple (2 Oct 2020)

HollyBud said:


> Who do you think should be accountable if anyone? Should there be any resignations or should there be a "sure these things happen" attitude?


People make mistakes all the time. Software has problems all the time. Something like this would usually take months or years. It would be tested and tested again. There was no time for that.
I don't know who is to blame but I don't think any politician or civil servant should lose their job over it unless it can be shown that they acted with gross negligence and leading a project for which there was no president and very little time in which mistakes were made does not constitute gross negligence.


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## HollyBud (2 Oct 2020)

> How can she put this right?



Make places available this year for the students that have been affected by this. It can be done if the will is there.



> Software has problems all the time



this line is usually thrown out to cover up for bad and incompetent management. Blame the computer.

Rubbish in, rubbish out...

Nobody knows who to blame so sure don't blame anyone...


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## gianni (2 Oct 2020)

The problem here is that it was done under severe time pressure. 

Once the decision was made not to sit the LC these problems, and more, were inevitable.


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## Steven Barrett (2 Oct 2020)

HollyBud said:


> Nobody is saying she should have been able to go back in time however she should put it right, yes.
> 
> *Who do you think should be accountable if anyone? *Should there be any resignations or should there be a "sure these things happen" attitude?



The company who designed the software. They should be made to give back the money for starters


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## HollyBud (2 Oct 2020)

> The problem here is that it was done under severe time pressure



Sorry Brendan but I don't except that. It cant have been that difficult to get this right.

Apart from Math's, English and Irish, pick the two best subjects from the Junior Cert.
Computer picks the two worst.
Blame the Code.

Exclude Civic, Social and Political Education (CSPE)  from the Junior Cert.
Computer includes Civic, Social and Political Education (CSPE) 
Blame the Code.


The Bus is Red.
What colour is the Bus?


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## WolfeTone (2 Oct 2020)

HollyBud said:


> Who do you think should be accountable if anyone?



In fairness, back as far as December 2019, the Department of Education should have had a contingency plan ready-set-go for the LC, in the eventuality of an economic lockdown for a disease no-one had ever heard of.


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## HollyBud (2 Oct 2020)

> In fairness, back as far as December 2019, the Department of Education should have had a contingency plan ready-set-go for the LC, in the eventuality of an economic lockdown for a disease no-one had ever heard of.



Stupid statement even if it was an attempt at sarcasm


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## sharkattack (2 Oct 2020)

The blame must lie with the developers.  Take Boeing 737 max example.  It's not the pilots fault or the airline carriers fault that the plane had bugs.  The fault lies with the developers of the plane.
Same here - the department supplied a spec to the developers outlining the scenarios that needed to be covered and they didn't cover them correctly.  Department clearly stated it was a bug in the software and not a shortcoming in the data supplied to the developers


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## HollyBud (2 Oct 2020)

Ok, so why did the minister apologise then.
Why did she sit on this information for a week.
Why were third round offers given out yesterday knowing what they know..


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## Purple (5 Oct 2020)

sharkattack said:


> The blame must lie with the developers.  Take Boeing 737 max example.  It's not the pilots fault or the airline carriers fault that the plane had bugs.  The fault lies with the developers of the plane.
> Same here - the department supplied a spec to the developers outlining the scenarios that needed to be covered and they didn't cover them correctly.  Department clearly stated it was a bug in the software and not a shortcoming in the data supplied to the developers


That's a good example to look at. 
There are very strict controls around the aviation sector. Those manufacturing parts that go into a plane have to have AS9100 certification and are subject to yearly audits by their customers and their certifying bodies. The design and development requirements for those components are also very strictly controlled. In the case of Boeing they ignored best practice and outsourced massive chunks of software development to India and elsewhere in such a way that they could not check the code. So, best practice had been established and there was a tried and trusted process in place. They made a financial decision to ignore that. It is a world away from what happened here. 
I am highly critical of P-PARS and other projects for which there was no real time pressure and the project plan was utterly flawed from the outset. That, again, is a world away from what happened with the Leaving Cert.


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## Leo (5 Oct 2020)

sharkattack said:


> The blame must lie with the developers.



How is it you are 100% sure the requirements and acceptance criteria were 100% accurate? It's rare issues like this can be solely pinned at one party's door.


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## Leo (5 Oct 2020)

HollyBud said:


> Make places available this year for the students that have been affected by this. It can be done if the will is there.



The challenge there is they already added thousands of places earlier in the year. There comes a point where cramming more in results in a poorer education for all on a course.


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## Purple (5 Oct 2020)

HollyBud said:


> Make places available this year for the students that have been affected by this. It can be done if the will is there.


 Do we hire more Hospital Consultants for the Medical Students to work under? If it's Arts or something then sure but for things like Medicine and Dentistry it is a different story.


HollyBud said:


> this line is usually thrown out to cover up for bad and incompetent management. Blame the computer.


 This isn't something that anyone foresaw. The skill set required was spread over a number of people inside and outside the Department. Maybe an investigation will show there was gross incompetence but let's not build the gallows yet.


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## HollyBud (9 Dec 2020)

Education Minister failed to keep Leaving Cert 'fair and accurate', court hears

Irish Independent


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## Saavy99 (9 Dec 2020)

Lin


HollyBud said:


> Education Minister failed to keep Leaving Cert 'fair and accurate', court hears
> 
> Irish Independent




Link?


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## HollyBud (9 Dec 2020)

Won't let me link the article, say spam or something but just Google what I posted and you will see it on today's Independent


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Dec 2020)

HollyBud said:


> Won't let me link the article, say spam







__





						If you see the word  "spam" or ******* in your posts.
					

We have censored a few words to wreck the links of spammers and replaced them with the word "spam" or *********.  For example, if you write f i t n e s s   in a post without the gaps between the letters it will be replaced by the word "spam"  So just edit the word  There are a few other words...



					www.askaboutmoney.com


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## Leo (10 Dec 2020)

Link here. So to be clear, the court has heard it claimed, but it has not yet been proven.


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## michaelm (10 Dec 2020)

It seems clear-cut to me that the Minister's intervention to exclude historical school data will have been to the detriment of many who could have expected higher points, but I can't see the profit in taking these cases.


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## SANTA10 (10 Dec 2020)

Most people want the grades their teachers predicted for them before the algorithm messed them up. Would this be a possible outcome if he wins the case?


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## HollyBud (11 Feb 2021)

So we have learnt nothing from last year. Feel so sorry for the students and there parents.


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## Purple (12 Feb 2021)

HollyBud said:


> So we have learnt nothing from last year. Feel so sorry for the students and there parents.


The ASTI have exercised their veto over the will of the people as expressed through their elected government. Don't blame the ASTI; every Public Sector Union has the same veto.


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## HollyBud (12 Feb 2021)

So don't blame the Software, don't blame the minister and now don't blame the unions despite that fact that they have walked out on talks...
you point last year was this is not something that was foreseen, that argument does not hold water this time. It was clear there was a strong possibility that this would happen again and guess what, here we are again with no plan A and no plan B....


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## Purple (12 Feb 2021)

HollyBud said:


> So don't blame the Software, don't blame the minister and now don't blame the unions despite that fact that they have walked out on talks...
> you point last year was this is not something that was foreseen, that argument does not hold water this time. It was clear there was a strong possibility that this would happen again and guess what, here we are again with no plan A and no plan B....


I'm just saying that the Unions are doing what Unions do; looking after their members at the expense of everyone else. In this case the "everyone else" happens to be children but if anyone thinks their needs are to the fore here then I've a bridge to sell them. 
The Minister? She's way out of her depth.


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## Sadim (12 Feb 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Leaving Cert: 6,500 students awarded lower grade due to code errors
> 
> 
> Government will work with colleges to give places to those who missed out
> ...



My daughter was LC in 2020, got marked down on 3 subjects by that cursed algorithm. Whatever about 2 of those mark-downs one was particularly unfair, Music. They had an exceptional class, all doing piano, violin etc since they were 4-5. Their teacher was reknowned in the British Isles and had won competitions in Ireland and England and produced many many A1s over a long teaching career. She marked them for 8 A1s (I don't know about the rest of the class) but the algorithm comes in and says, sorry you can only have 3 A1s because that is some sort of national average. The fact that this was an exceptionally high performing school in Music was irrelevant (and no, it was not a private school or a Leeson Street-esque). This is somewhat similar to the experience of the German school in Dublin which I thought was farcical and only arose because past performance was not allowed to enter grading considerations..... more social engineering BS. Past performance is not a guarantee but it is an indicator and ideology should not enter grading where you are trying the next best objectivity to actual exams.

My daughter was disappointed and still quotes the teacher grades as her LC results but she is more sanguine than me and has dusted it off and gone on to college. I on the other hand am bitter about it to this day. I don't know about the other teacher A1s she got (think it was Economics and Irish) but the Music one in particular riles me. If background, effort, money, application, gifted teachers are factors then they should not have been parked in the interests of so-called "social equality". PGs were meant to be a proxy for objective marking and the algorithm is unsound as can be seen with the experience of the German school.

.... end of rant!


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## Sadim (12 Feb 2021)

Purple said:


> The ASTI have exercised their veto over the will of the people as expressed through their elected government. Don't blame the ASTI; every Public Sector Union has the same veto.



Sometimes I wonder about this Citizens Assembly. Instead of feeding us duff constitutional amendments (blasphemy?) give us something of substance, I can think of a good few. Like, should there not be a "public good" override on a lot of these constitutional personal rights? We are an interdependent society afterall and what may be good for one individual is disadvantageous, even to detrement, of the rest of society. The same could be said of unions. Yes, they are there to protect their members rights and that is fine. However, somebody (a Judge) should be able to override that right on the basis of the public good. Yes, "public good" is a nebulous concept and should require a high threshold before it can be invoked but society should rank at least as high as the individual.


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## Purple (16 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> Sometimes I wonder about this Citizens Assembly


I always wonder about it. A bunch of retirees and civil servants with nothing better to do.
I'd prefer if we elected our public representatives and they made decisions in a Parliament. That way they could be accountable to the people. You know, democracy.

I don't like unaccountable and I don't like "big"; big government, big banks, big tech, big business etc. If we have to have them then I want Government to be in charge and I want our elected representatives to make sure it is efficient and that our TD's spend most of their time being utterly ruthless in making sure it is efficient so that it can regulate and oversee the other "bigs" on our behalf.


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## Sadim (16 Feb 2021)

Purple said:


> I always wonder about it. A bunch of retirees and civil servants with nothing better to do.
> I'd prefer if we elected our public representatives and they made decisions in a Parliament. That way they could be accountable to the people. You know, democracy.
> 
> I don't like unaccountable and I don't like "big"; big government, big banks, big tech, big business etc. If we have to have them then I want Government to be in charge and I want our elected representatives to make sure it is efficient and that our TD's spend most of their time being utterly ruthless in making sure it is efficient so that it can regulate and oversee the other "bigs" on our behalf.



Could not agree more Purple. I wrote a Letter to the Ed for the Indo a few years back about this. 

Out of 100 members,
- one a judge (fair enough)
- 33 from the Oireachtas (who already have their own assembly... them being there only undermines the original concept)
- 66 randoms (although I remember reading where they were stuck for attendees and the polling company picked some of their mates)

Also, for a 90% confidence level from a voting population of 3,100,000 with a +/- 5% margin of error requires a random sample of 271. The only random bit about the Citizens Assembly are the 66!

Besides, we elect the Oireachtas and it is up to them to govern the country


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## dereko1969 (16 Feb 2021)

Sadim said:


> My daughter was LC in 2020, got marked down on 3 subjects by that cursed algorithm. Whatever about 2 of those mark-downs one was particularly unfair, Music. They had an exceptional class, all doing piano, violin etc since they were 4-5. Their teacher was reknowned in the British Isles and had won competitions in Ireland and England and produced many many A1s over a long teaching career. She marked them for 8 A1s (I don't know about the rest of the class) but the algorithm comes in and says, sorry you can only have 3 A1s because that is some sort of national average. The fact that this was an exceptionally high performing school in Music was irrelevant (and no, it was not a private school or a Leeson Street-esque). This is somewhat similar to the experience of the German school in Dublin which I thought was farcical and only arose because past performance was not allowed to enter grading considerations..... more social engineering BS. Past performance is not a guarantee but it is an indicator and ideology should not enter grading where you are trying the next best objectivity to actual exams.
> 
> My daughter was disappointed and still quotes the teacher grades as her LC results but she is more sanguine than me and has dusted it off and gone on to college. I on the other hand am bitter about it to this day. I don't know about the other teacher A1s she got (think it was Economics and Irish) but the Music one in particular riles me. If background, effort, money, application, gifted teachers are factors then they should not have been parked in the interests of so-called "social equality". PGs were meant to be a proxy for objective marking and the algorithm is unsound as can be seen with the experience of the German school.
> 
> .... end of rant!





Sadim said:


> Sometimes I wonder about this Citizens Assembly. Instead of feeding us duff constitutional amendments (blasphemy?) give us something of substance, I can think of a good few. Like, should there not be a "public good" override on a lot of these constitutional personal rights? We are an interdependent society afterall and what may be good for one individual is disadvantageous, even to detrement, of the rest of society. The same could be said of unions. Yes, they are there to protect their members rights and that is fine. However, somebody (a Judge) should be able to override that right on the basis of the public good. Yes, "public good" is a nebulous concept and should require a high threshold before it can be invoked but society should rank at least as high as the individual.


Are both your points not contradictory? Public Good in the second you're in favour of, but in the first the public good was put forward as a reason for not giving higher grades purely based on the history of the schools. Is it only a "public" good when it suits you?

Whatever about this year, last year was impossible for the right thing to be done for every single LC student. I'm sure your daughter did deserve an A1 in music, if she's managed to get over it though so should you.


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## Sadim (16 Feb 2021)

dereko1969 said:


> Are both your points not contradictory? Public Good in the second you're in favour of, but in the first the public good was put forward as a reason for not giving higher grades purely based on the history of the schools. Is it only a "public" good when it suits you?
> 
> Whatever about this year, last year was impossible for the right thing to be done for every single LC student. I'm sure your daughter did deserve an A1 in music, if she's managed to get over it though so should you.



Was only giving a personal example of the PG system and how it seemed to prejudice high performing students eg. the German school in Dublin. I don't think that had anything to do with the "public good". To my mind, the PG system deliberately ignored past performance on the assumption that it favoured private or grind schools and past performance probably would have favoured those schools. By excluding that factor the Dept of Ed basically said high grades do not come from private or grind schools whereas the stats show different.

As regards a "public good" clause in the constitution, yes I think it does have merits. You only have to look at all the restrictions in place with Covid, I am no lawyer but I would imagine the legal soundness of some of them are questionable. Like, as a citizen of this republic is the state within its rights to stop me travelling from say, Cork to Kerry. I would be surprised if this was valid but maybe somebody could enlighten me. That said, I think the state should have emergency powers for something like Covid where our individual rights are curtailed for a specific reason and a limited time.


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