# Gas boiler query....



## el88s (15 Jan 2009)

hi,
ive just got a new boiler, but now ive been told that ive been fooled and that its illegal to put an ordinary boiler in, and that i should have been advised that i had to put in a condenser boiler. i paid 1,460e for the baxi boiler.
it seems to be working fine. should i listen to the gas service man who told me i should have put in a condenser boiler?
there was a price difference of 400euro


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## DGOBS (15 Jan 2009)

Yes youur serviceman was correct to point this out to you.
From 31 March 2008 there is a requirement that all new installed boilers achieve a minimum of a B band rating (condensers!)

Only if particular circumstances arise that lead to a difficulty in installing such a boiler then a standard is allow (details of that can be downloaded  from the sei or cer websites)

Remember a condenser at €400 extra would be saving you minimum 10-15% on your yearly gas bill.........


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## el88s (16 Jan 2009)

i got this guy from bord gais website.....should i report it??
and what should i do now??


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## kingfo (16 Jan 2009)

Your installer did advise you badly but I dont think the gas police will be knocking on your door any time soon. You could ask your installer to replace it with a condensing boiler and just pay the price difference but I doubt if you will have much joy.


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## AlbacoreA (16 Jan 2009)

DGOBS said:


> Yes youur serviceman was correct to point this out to you.
> From 31 March 2008 there is a requirement that all new installed boilers achieve a minimum of a B band rating (condensers!)...


 
How is that enforced?


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## el88s (16 Jan 2009)

maybe that new law is just for new houses?


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## gary71 (16 Jan 2009)

el88s said:


> maybe that new law is just for new houses?


 
No.

Standard efficiency boilers like the one you have had fitted have been band in the UK for a couple of years and this was enforced very well by Corgi,
as DGOBS wrote they have been banned here since march last year, but this is not enforced by anybody i am aware of as yet, as the new Corgi like setup is in it's infancy at the moment and do not have the inspectors in place [broken link removed] it might be worth contacting them and also the trading standards because you have been sold a banned item, Good luck Gary


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## ang1170 (16 Jan 2009)

Just out of interest, which particular model do you have?

Assuming it's new, I doubt Baxi (a very reputable make by the way) even do "standard" boliers anymore. If it has "HE" in the name you're almost certainly OK, as that's the term they use for condensing boilers.

I've just had one fitted, by the way - the extent of my expertise in this - the one I have has an "A" energy rating.


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## gary71 (16 Jan 2009)

It wouldn't necessarily be the manufactures responsible, but the merchants who stock piled the cheap boilers that came from the UK.


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## el88s (16 Jan 2009)

this guy asked me for cash by the way,........


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## el88s (16 Jan 2009)

its a baxi without a HE. but its working fine............


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## HeadTheWall (16 Jan 2009)

No invoice - He can say he never sold it. Where do you stand with warranty?

The pitfalls of cash


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## AlbacoreA (17 Jan 2009)

gary71 said:


> No.
> 
> Standard efficiency boilers like the one you have had fitted have been band in the UK for a couple of years and this was enforced very well by Corgi,
> as DGOBS wrote they have been banned here since march last year, but this is not enforced by anybody i am aware of as yet, as the new Corgi like setup is in it's infancy at the moment and do not have the inspectors in place [broken link removed] it might be worth contacting them and also the trading standards because you have been sold a banned item, Good luck Gary


 
How did Corgi enforce it?


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## el88s (17 Jan 2009)

he said i was covered.........but now i doubt it......


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## gary71 (17 Jan 2009)

Every gas installer in the UK would have to be registered with Corgi and have a id to prove this, every new boiler comes with a benchmark book which must be filled out and left with the customer, on it will be the installers corgi id number and business address, also all the details for flushing, inhibitor and what chemicals were used, the installer would then ring Corgi to register the boiler installation with Corgi, part L of the building regs would mean the installer would have to do calculations like the BER to get the correct boiler size for the property, so the boiler is not over sized or undersized, if the installer fails on any of these points then the customer can report him to corgi, who are very happy to come out Wright a report and if need be remove the installer from the registration scheme if the installer has not made good the instructions from Corgi, also anybody who is removed gets their details printed in a national magazine and put on the Internet, this is the kind of thing that will hopefully happen here as the quality of Irish installations tend to be woefully bad making things difficult for the quality heating engineers out there as anyone can give boiler installation a lash, Gary.


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## AlbacoreA (17 Jan 2009)

You mean theres nothing to stop someone putting an old boiler in if no one reported it. 

I've not seen any info on this in Ireland, in the general media.


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## DavyJones (17 Jan 2009)

AlbacoreA said:


> You mean theres nothing to stop someone putting an old boiler in if no one reported it.
> 
> I've not seen any info on this in Ireland, in the general media.



not only that, but there is nothing stopping  someone sticking an ad in the paper claiming to be gas installer/service person. although this year it will change and people will be prosecuted if they work on gas without qualifications and on the register


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## DGOBS (18 Jan 2009)

Hey Gary, that benchmark book sure sounds like a good idea, you mean it even ensures they FLUSH the system and use INHIBITOR when installing boilers....WOW........maybe it should even state if the system is sealed or open vented...or SEMISEALED!!!!!!!!

But I am 100% sure it would be ridiculiously hard to have a STANDARD in Ireland for installing boilers, I mean, what would all the cowboys do for work? And they pay for flushing and inhibitors and install as per manufacturers instructions in the install quote, you do realise we are in a recession....! 

Next thing you'll be telling me, they should fit those thermostats thingys too, and zonevalves, and 3 channel time clocks (3 IMAGINE THAT..WOW)and hey while were at it, maybe install them correctly too to achieve the fabled 'boiler control system interlock' all sounds a startrek to me though who ever heard of someething eletrical having more that 3 wires anyway (orange and grey wires...nah..snip, snip).......god after all this is ireland, the county where we can stick a 1300ltr oil tank at the back of our house on a tempory' pallet, and be sure it'll be ok for 15 or 20 years!!

HMMMMM....WAS IT JOHN LENNON WHO SANG ...IMAGINE....

for all those who dont know me, sorry for the rant, but useless installers are really getting up my nose, have had 7 sludged up systems this week alone...not to mention all the others I have been to, why on earth intallers can't do things as they should be done (and were paid for) is beyond me


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## noelf (18 Jan 2009)

Did he give you a certificate of compliance? if not then you should report him to the Gas Company. The price he qouted you seems cheap, very cheap, I have recently had a gas condensing boiler fitted and it cost €1885.00 but that was a straight replacement, as far as I can tell gas back boilers are not available in condensing models,could be wrong? something to do with the flue and drain off? Anyway looks like you got a cheap deal if thats any consolation. I have a second house with a baxi bermuda and it will need replacing soon as I am renovating the house and have been told that I need to use a wall mounted boiler, I have been qouted from almost €2700 to €4000.00 from 4 different companies.


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## heyyou (29 Jan 2009)

DGOBS said:


> Remember a condenser at €400 extra would be saving you minimum 10-15% on your yearly gas bill.........


 
Is €400 the right ballpark in difference in price between the 'old' and the condensing boilers? My plumber, who says he quoted on the basis of the old type is telling me €800 is the difference...


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## DavyJones (29 Jan 2009)

€400 is in the ballpark, €800 is miles from anything that even looks like a ballpark. You have a chancer on your hands.


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## DGOBS (29 Jan 2009)

What you need to do is, ask your installer for the make/model of suggested boiler(s) and then ring the merchants to get your 'independant' price, this will give you a benchmark, and you should expect your installers boiler price to be below your quote as he/she will get a trade discount on it!


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## DavyJones (29 Jan 2009)

DGOBS said:


> What you need to do is, ask your installer for the make/model of suggested boiler(s) and then ring the merchants to get your 'independant' price, this will give you a benchmark, and you should expect your installers boiler price to be below your quote as he/she will get a trade discount on it!



Good idea to ring for price.

 However not many business's pass on their trade prices to customers, and nearly all traders will add a % upmark for sourcing and supplying materials.


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## DGOBS (29 Jan 2009)

haha..too right Davy, but its what I term a leverage!


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## heyyou (30 Jan 2009)

Thanks - I suspected as much!


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## james007 (30 Jan 2009)

most important thing in dealing with anything gas related is to dot the i's and cap the t'sbecause if anything happens and you need to claim on your house insurance they will want a certificate of competency from who ever installed it


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## theresa1 (20 Aug 2009)

A rep just checked my old non condenser boiler and said it really should have been wired with four wires instead of three? No live wire -he said? What's that all about?


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## DGOBS (20 Aug 2009)

It means your installer only supplied an earth. Neutra. And switched live to the 
boiler a d did not supply a permanent live feed. 
The switched live tells the boiler to fire up on demand for heat 
from your clock/stats/mv but the permanent live allows the boiler
to perform other functions such a pump/fan overrun when required
to prevent overheating

not all boilers require this. But as a rule the vast majority do


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## theresa1 (20 Aug 2009)

Thanks DGOBS - the rep said it was probably ok till now because the heat settings had not been up to full. I hope to change boiler soon but should I get a permanent live feed in immediately for the old boiler.


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## DGOBS (21 Aug 2009)

Yes, when you get it serviced ask your serviceman can he do it for you
(some can be difficult if the power is not at the boiler to take)


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## theresa1 (9 Nov 2009)

Still on my non condenser boiler and getting different view's on not having a permanent live feed. I'm told frost protection wont work as boiler will not fire up - probably can do without this but is the heat exchanger at risk? I'm told once settings are not up full on boiler i'll be ok as temperarture wont go too high. May have to wait a year or two to change boiler -money worries and now I'm worried over this permanent live feed even though it's been year's like that.


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## galwaytt (9 Nov 2009)

...I now have the same problem:  I've just been told that the wiring and logic rail have been incorrectly wired.  Issues arising from this are:
1. No frost protection
2. No anti-cycling protection (which boiler uses to promote longevity/efficiency)
3. Over time, when the boiler cuts out, with water at max temp, because you're cutting the (only) live feed, the pumps won't 'run-on', and the pressure in the system local to the heat exchanger, may prompt it to leak/fail, prematurely.

No, I'm not fuggin' impressed with my 'SEI Approved' installer either !!


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## theresa1 (9 Nov 2009)

Sorry to hear that galwaytt - I'm trying to find out by having the heating temp. adjustment at 3 instead of on full at 5 will this protect the heat exchanger? I'd imagine boiler wont be as efficient but in summer you would turn this setting down in anyway.


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## gary71 (9 Nov 2009)

Without a permanent live your boilers are not fitted to manufactures instructions and can effect any warranty you have left, my advise would be to turn your boiler off from the on/off switch on the boiler or turn the thermostat knob to zero as much as possible instead of  allowing the timer to cut power, this prevents any over heating issues(most common problem) and when things get cold *always* leave the clock on 24hrs with boiler control in the off position if you are not using it, to prevent frost damage, the boiler will can always fire to protect it's self if you give it power from the clock, Gary.


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## gary71 (9 Nov 2009)

theresa1 said:


> Sorry to hear that galwaytt - I'm trying to find out by having the heating temp. adjustment at 3 instead of on full at 5 will this protect the heat exchanger? I'd imagine boiler wont be as efficient but in summer you would turn this setting down in anyway.


 
The lower you have the the boiler stat the better, but the boiler is designed to have a pump over run to dissipate the heat from the heat exchanger and even turning down the boiler stat will allow heat to sit in the boiler, the boiler is not designed to handle or cope with this heat, Gary.


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## Brighid (9 Nov 2009)

I already posted this query but seems to have gone AWOL. I have just been given a quote of 3000 to replace my gas boiler. It cannot be replaced where the existing one is. He suggested I should put it in the attic but that will cost 3,500. The quote goes: Supply&fit icosElise HE Bolier in front bedroom 3000, in attic 3,500
New Controls, Timer
All rubbish removed + 2 days installation. Is this an excessive quote? Thanks in advance.


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## DGOBS (9 Nov 2009)

What is the issue where existing boiler is located?


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## gary71 (9 Nov 2009)

I would get more quotes, you would soon get an idea of the price, if you go for the attic installation then be aware you will need decent access for servicing and for yourself if you have to go to the boiler to change settings or possibly to press reset due to overheating issues, that can occur with the boiler being the highest point of the heating system, which is not recommended, Gary.


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## Brighid (9 Nov 2009)

It is currently not adjacent to an outside wall.


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## Brighid (9 Nov 2009)

gary71 said:


> if you go for the attic installation then be aware you will need decent access for servicing and for yourself if you have to go to the boiler to change settings or possibly to press reset due to overheating issues, that can occur with the boiler being the highest point of the heating system, which is not recommended, Gary.


 Good Point Gary, thank you.


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## theresa1 (10 Nov 2009)

Thanks gary71 - maybe I'm reading thing's wrong but does the pump operate differently say if i set the clock timer to come on at say 10am and go off at 12pm as opposed to me physically switching it on at 10am and then switching off at 12pm?


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## gary71 (10 Nov 2009)

Without a permanent live your clock/programmer becomes a timed main isolation switch , so if it's off the boiler has no power at all for frost protection or any overrun to clear/protect from any heat spikes after the boiler been on a little while, the pump over run kicks in when the boiler has reached temperature and the gas has gone off, it's needed so the heat in the boiler can be maintained correctly, turning off the power to a boiler leaves any heat setting in the boiler and the temperature can raise to levels the boiler is not designed to reach, the way your boiler is wired would be like getting in your car driving somewhere, then pulling the lead off the battery to stop the engine, the engine fan would not be able to run to cool the engine and the car would overheat, if you leave the clock on and then turn the boiler down/off from the temperature stat you do not interrupt normal boiler operation, now you know as much as me, Gary.


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## theresa1 (10 Nov 2009)

Apart from getting a permanent live feed to my boiler installed which will cost a few hundred euro - any other measures i could take to protect heat exchanger?


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## galwaytt (10 Nov 2009)

theresa1 said:


> Apart from getting a permanent live feed to my boiler installed which will cost a few hundred euro - any other measures i could take to protect heat exchanger?


 
Getting a permanent live feed should  not be that expensive - is there a socket near it ?


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## theresa1 (10 Nov 2009)

No socket near and it's out in an outhouse.


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## galwaytt (11 Nov 2009)

.....sorry to harp on, but if it's an outhouse, and your boiler is out there, there must be some sort of power - pump ? light ?  No ?   ....odd, if there isn't.........


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## theresa1 (11 Nov 2009)

galwaytt said:


> .....sorry to harp on, but if it's an outhouse, and your boiler is out there, there must be some sort of power - pump ? light ? No ? ....odd, if there isn't.........


 

- No problem but I just have the one cable going to the boiler. No power sockets and I dont even have a light installed.


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## galwaytt (12 Nov 2009)

...oh dear........., tbh, you're going to have to get power in there, somehow.  Is the cable currently connecting only a 3-core ?  Any chance it's more, and there's some unused cores ? (hoping, really..........)

If you don't have tarmac/paths to dig up, it's not a big deal to run an armoured cable out there.  If you do have all that though...........mmm, no power in the garden anywhere, no ?  Lights/sockets/gates/fountain/treatment plant ???


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## theresa1 (12 Nov 2009)

Yes only 3 core and no other supply in the garden. Surely the heat exchanger is well able to stand the temperatures at two thirds of the setting?


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## gary71 (12 Nov 2009)

quote=theresa1;959217] Surely the heat exchanger is well able to stand the temperatures at two thirds of the setting?[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not, without the correct wiring the boiler cannot function 100% the way it has been designed, there will be a overheat limit switch on the boiler that will protect the boiler to a certain extent from overheating, most boilers i come a cross are wired the same as yours and are left alone (which doesn't make it right)the boilers are only rewired when the over heating becomes a problem, so i wouldn't blow this out of proportion, the way your boiler is wired is wrong and i wouldn't be happy with it in my house, but if you leave the stat down the effects on the boiler is reduced, but as a proper gasman i would have to advise the fault is rectified, Gary.


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## theresa1 (12 Nov 2009)

Thanks gary I understand what you are saying - I do intend to get it rectified but to be honest it will probably be after the winter. I presume air flow rate safety device and heating safety value will also operate ok along with the overheating safety? I do understand frost protection wil not.


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## gary71 (12 Nov 2009)

The overheat stat on the boiler is not dependent on electricity, if you had a problem with heat your boiler would be dead/locked out when the clock turns the power back on, so long story short ,if you were getting problems you would know about it as the boiler would be locking out or possibly making noises, Gary.


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## theresa1 (12 Nov 2009)

Thanks for all your help gary.


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## gary71 (12 Nov 2009)

My pleasure, as me dad says "it's nice to be nice".


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## DavyJones (13 Nov 2009)

There is one way around it but it may not be ideal. Move your time clock out to your boiler. the feed out becomes a permanent supply, that runs stairght to boiler, fused ofcourse, and a switch live is taken through the timeclock to boiler.


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## theresa1 (13 Nov 2009)

Yes idea allright but then in middle of winter having to go outside to put on heat if not using the timer settings wouldnt be nice.


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## DavyJones (13 Nov 2009)

Wireless timer in house with receiver near boiler?


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## theresa1 (14 Nov 2009)

DavyJones said:


> Wireless timer in house with receiver near boiler?


 

- Yes an idea but still would have to get clock put outside.


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## DavyJones (14 Nov 2009)

no, timeclock would be in house with receiver beside boiler. Sure they could be got, but would be expensive.


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## DGOBS (14 Nov 2009)

As ye are doing it. Some frost protection maybe too!! As it's in a outhouse


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## DGOBS (15 Nov 2009)

Vertical flueing options should be also looked into to avoid attic installation (just serviced one the other day in an attic, horrible, just horrible)


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## theresa1 (4 May 2010)

DavyJones said:


> There is one way around it but it may not be ideal. Move your time clock out to your boiler. the feed out becomes a permanent supply, that runs stairght to boiler, fused ofcourse, and a switch live is taken through the timeclock to boiler.


 

- Just had house re-wired - the electrician reckoned already a live feed - cable was split in the boiler utility room. He claimed the re-wiring is only to the spure and left the old cable. They cant open Gas boilers and the last bit of cable is the responsibility of the Gas service engineer. Any truth in this?


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## theresa1 (9 Sep 2010)

Continuing from above when I switch off heating I still have a green light on the boiler -surely this would go out if I did not have a live feed. I'm about to get boiler serviced and wonder should I ask the engineer but as I am trying to find out -who's responsible for the wiring to the boiler from the spure?


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## DavyJones (9 Sep 2010)

RGI service people are responsible for the wiring of the boiler.


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## theresa1 (9 Sep 2010)

Just had Boiler serviced and got a Cert 3 form - he told me it's ok and it has a live feed - still find it odd that when you get your full house re-wired the only piece of cable left is belonging to your Gas Boiler - anyway Thanks Davy for clarification.


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