# Toxic colleague



## denisoleary (8 Mar 2022)

My partner works in a small office and one of his colleagues creates a toxic atmosphere due to mood swings and fighting / arguing about petty things whenever she can.
Their manager is pretty useless and instead of intervening will warn people in advance to be careful around her today shes in a mood.
My partner works from home 2 days and in office 3 days. When shes not in, work is great.
My partner has asked to work from home full-time and only come into office when shes not there.

This request has been denied and my partner is close to handing in his notice. (Two people have previously left due to this person).
Does anyone have advice, legal or otherwise.
The job is great otherwise, but this one person is ruining it.


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## noproblem (8 Mar 2022)

denisoleary said:


> My partner works in a small office and one of his colleagues creates a toxic atmosphere due to mood swings and fighting / arguing about petty things whenever she can.
> Their manager is pretty useless and instead of intervening will warn people in advance to be careful around her today shes in a mood.
> My partner works from home 2 days and in office 3 days. When shes not in, work is great.
> My partner has asked to work from home full-time and only come into office when shes not there.
> ...


You could write to her and point out a few things, then forget to sign your name.


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## Gordon Gekko (8 Mar 2022)

Best to leave IMO.

When eejits like that are tolerated, the good people leave.


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## Horatio (8 Mar 2022)

There are presumably HR processes in place for such grievances. 

Read & understand the grievance reporting process & follow it. Management will be compelled to follow it to as it is their process. Not following it leaves them open to all manner of litigious risk.


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## galway_blow_in (8 Mar 2022)

denisoleary said:


> My partner works in a small office and one of his colleagues creates a toxic atmosphere due to mood swings and fighting / arguing about petty things whenever she can.
> Their manager is pretty useless and instead of intervening will warn people in advance to be careful around her today shes in a mood.
> My partner works from home 2 days and in office 3 days. When shes not in, work is great.
> My partner has asked to work from home full-time and only come into office when shes not there.
> ...


Yes ,hand in notice,  female bullies have immunity as no boss wants the misogyny card flung at them and it's often conveniently played


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## Gordon Gekko (8 Mar 2022)

Horatio said:


> There are presumably HR processes in place for such grievances.
> 
> Read & understand the grievance reporting process & follow it. Management will be compelled to follow it to as it is their process. Not following it leaves them open to all manner of litigious risk.


It doesn’t sound like there much in the way of process or structure based on the OP.


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## Thirsty (8 Mar 2022)

Leave. Nothing you can do will improve the work environment.


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## messyleo (8 Mar 2022)

Only option here would be a formal grievance complaint or bullying complaint etc. really. Disciplinary action could then be taken against the respondent if a case needed to be answered. But outside of that, the only option is to find another job. It sucks and is unfair, but these individuals can be impossible to remove as they are most likely to bring a legal case if there is any misstep whatsoever.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Mar 2022)

Why stay in a place that isn't doing anything about a problem. Vote with your feet.


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## Leper (9 Mar 2022)

1. Employee A is being bullied by Employee B - A should write down everything as it happens and immediately email it to his/her private email. Then A has the time and date of the incident, the incident, emotions etc recorded.
2. A should confront management (again) with detailed written complaint. Ensure management writes back with the process it intends to or has done.
or
3. A should confront B verbally with grievance and make it clear if bullying continues management will be forced to act. 
4. If a person is being bullied why should he/she leave the job? My work experiences indicate when a bully is being confronted, the bullying stops.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Mar 2022)

Two people have previously left over this person.

The odds are not good that confrontation will work. Often it makes it worse as they are looking for someone to be triggered by the bullying.

I've always find that minimizing my own contact with such people works best while surreptitiously referring as much work as possible to them. They generally don't deal with stress well. If they are busy they don't have time to focus on anything else.


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## Thirsty (9 Mar 2022)

@Leper this is a small office, not a large corporate.

Big companies, with all their resources and training handle these situations badly; this employee hasn't a hope of getting a good outcome 

Save your sanity and leave.


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## Leper (9 Mar 2022)

Thirsty said:


> @Leper this is a small office, not a large corporate.
> 
> Big companies, with all their resources and training handle these situations badly; this employee hasn't a hope of getting a good outcome
> 
> Save your sanity and leave.


Bullying is bullying whether the office is large or small or whether the company employs 10 or 10,000. Recently, we've had a thread which discussed calling out male violence against women. Bullying is similar and should not be tolerated. In my day as a local trade union secretary, I'd have this situation resolved in minutes and likely the bully would be handing in her/his resignation if failed to comply.


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## Thirsty (9 Mar 2022)

Leper said:


> Bullying is similar and should not be tolerated.


I agree, but the person bringing the complaint gets smashed in the process.  It's not worth it.

So you refuse to tolerate it by leaving.


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## Leper (9 Mar 2022)

Thirsty said:


> I agree, but the person bringing the complaint gets smashed in the process.  It's not worth it.
> 
> So you refuse to tolerate it by leaving.





Thirsty said:


> I agree, but the person bringing the complaint gets smashed in the process.  It's not worth it.
> 
> So you refuse to tolerate it by leaving.


Hi Thirsty, that might be your opinion, but I've been through several court cases as a result of members being bullied and it was the bully who always got smashed and deservedly so. Believe me, once the bully is called out the victims seem to get emotional strength from somewhere and when people who were bullied get going it is difficult to stop them. I could give astonishing examples here, but I'm trying to keep my posts short.


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## RetirementPlan (9 Mar 2022)

galway_blow_in said:


> Yes ,hand in notice,  female bullies have immunity as no boss wants the misogyny card flung at them and it's often conveniently played


Speak for yourself. Many bosses in my circle will have no difficulty in dealing with such situations.

Having said that, in the situation described by the OP, leaving is probably the best advice.


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## michaelm (9 Mar 2022)

denisoleary said:


> Does anyone have advice, legal or otherwise.


Action is the antidote to despair.  I wouldn't hand in notice but I would resolve to leave.  I'd quietly secure a job elsewhere then hand in notice.  All I'd say to the current employer and the new one is that I liked the work but was looking for a change.  While tempting, there's likely no profit in venting your spleen in this case.


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## rustbucket (9 Mar 2022)

Leper said:


> Hi Thirsty, that might be your opinion, but I've been through several court cases as a result of members being bullied and it was the bully who always got smashed and deservedly so. Believe me, once the bully is called out the victims seem to get emotional strength from somewhere and when people who were bullied get going it is difficult to stop them. I could give astonishing examples here, but I'm trying to keep my posts short.


It is often a different experience when trade unions are involved.


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## Newbie! (9 Mar 2022)

Leper said:


> Bullying is bullying whether the office is large or small or whether the company employs 10 or 10,000. Recently, we've had a thread which discussed calling out male violence against women. Bullying is similar and should not be tolerated. In my day as a local trade union secretary, I'd have this situation resolved in minutes and likely the bully would be handing in her/his resignation if failed to comply.


At what point does bullying become bullying? i.e. the person is toxic, difficult to be around etc but would we consider that bullying? I work with someone whom I cannot abide and they're rude, loud and annoying but I don't think I could identify a single episode of bullying. It makes for a very difficult situation to deal with.


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## galway_blow_in (9 Mar 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> Speak for yourself. Many bosses in my circle will have no difficulty in dealing with such situations.
> 
> Having said that, in the situation described by the OP, leaving is probably the best advice.


Well if you're experience is that male bosses are not in anyway reluctant to address bullying by female employees for fear of being labelled sextist ?

That is indeed heartening, it has not been my experience however


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## denisoleary (9 Mar 2022)

Many thanks for all the replies. Following another outburst by his colleague and their manager dismissing it, explaining she is having personal issues, my partner handed in his notice. Life too short, enough is enough.


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## Steven Barrett (10 Mar 2022)

denisoleary said:


> Many thanks for all the replies. Following another outburst by his colleague and their manager dismissing it, *explaining she is having personal issues*, my partner handed in his notice. Life too short, enough is enough.


That is a load of   . Lots of people have personal issues but they don't carry it into the work place and use it as an excuse for being unpleasant to other people. Your partner did the right thing. Her employers are enabling this person and she will carry on being unpleasant to people. For some reason are willing to lose good staff to allow this one person to be unpleasant to other people. Crazy way to run a business.


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## messyleo (10 Mar 2022)

In fairness, if an employee who has been the victim won't make a formal written complaint that can be investigated there isn't much that can be done. A process needs to be followed and these bullies will be the ones who will pick up on any flaw in the process.


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## Peanuts20 (10 Mar 2022)

Might be worth having a conversation with an employment lawyer to see if there is a case for constructive dismissal. 

the real issue here is not the employee with "personal issues", it's the weak management. 






						Bullying at work
					

The law protects employees against bullying at work. This page explains the law and your rights if you think you are being bullied at work




					www.citizensinformation.ie


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## WaterWater (10 Mar 2022)

I am sorry that the person had to hand in their notice because someone else was being unpleasant. I wouldn't have handed in my notice. I would have had a meeting with my manager and explained the situation and asked him/her to do something about it.  If nothing was done then I would have taken it further.

I hope that this unpleasant person is aware that people are leaving the company because of her.


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## rustbucket (10 Mar 2022)

Is there an exit interview of any kind? Good place to let them know exactly why they are leaving.


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## Salvadore (10 Mar 2022)

The manager’s manager needs to be made aware of the unwillingness to tackle a problem that’s causing good staff to leave. 

A strong employer would challenge this toxic behaviour up to to point of dismissal if necessary.


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## Shirazman (10 Mar 2022)

Salvadore said:


> The manager’s manager needs to be made aware of the unwillingness to tackle a problem that’s causing good staff to leave.
> 
> A strong employer would challenge this toxic behaviour up to to point of dismissal if necessary.



Problem there is that unless that "strong employer" ensures that the dismissal is done completely by the book - which takes time - they run the risk of being absolutely screwed by the WRC.


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## Salvadore (10 Mar 2022)

Shirazman said:


> Problem there is that unless that "strong employer" ensures that the dismissal is done completely by the book - which takes time - they run the risk of being absolutely screwed by the WRC.


Perhaps. But even the risk of a negative outcome at the WRC might be preferable to the certainty of the impact that person is currently having. A bitter pill to swallow but perhaps worth it.


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## Purple (11 Mar 2022)

WaterWater said:


> I am sorry that the person had to hand in their notice because someone else was being unpleasant. I wouldn't have handed in my notice. I would have had a meeting with my manager and explained the situation and asked him/her to do something about it.  If nothing was done then I would have taken it further.
> 
> I hope that this unpleasant person is aware that people are leaving the company because of her.


It's not up to an employee to fix the incompetence and structural failings of the employer. If there is a same sort of job available for the same sort of money then leaving is the best option for the employee. 

Most people in this country work in small businesses which won't have formal HR structures in place. It's very hard to discipline an employee, let alone get rid of them. In the protected sector employers can just move the difficult people around but in the SME sector employers don't have the luxury of spending other people's money "fixing" the problem.


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## Sunnygirl69 (1 Oct 2022)

Leper said:


> 1. Employee A is being bullied by Employee B - A should write down everything as it happens and immediately email it to his/her private email. Then A has the time and date of the incident, the incident, emotions etc recorded.
> 2. A should confront management (again) with detailed written complaint. Ensure management writes back with the process it intends to or has done.
> or
> 3. A should confront B verbally with grievance and make it clear if bullying continues management will be forced to act.
> 4. If a person is being bullied why should he/she leave the job? My work experiences indicate when a bully is being confronted, the bullying stops.


All very well Leper unless it is a HSE workplace.


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## wondering (1 Oct 2022)

Newbie! said:


> At what point does bullying become bullying? i.e. the person is toxic, difficult to be around etc but would we consider that bullying? I work with someone whom I cannot abide and they're rude, loud and annoying but I don't think I could identify a single episode of bullying. It makes for a very difficult situation to deal with.


I personally think there can be a fine line. If I have to be around someone who is selfish, inconsiderate, loud, etc (aka 'toxic') then even if they're not targeting me intentionally/directly I still have to deal with the fallout. Everyone is affected. As well as this there's a cumulative effect. Over time if you have to go somewhere where it's normal/accepted/expected then you naturally just don't want to go there.


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## messyleo (1 Oct 2022)

wondering said:


> I personally think there can be a fine line. If I have to be around someone who is selfish, inconsiderate, loud, etc (aka 'toxic') then even if they're not targeting me intentionally/directly I still have to deal with the fallout. Everyone is affected. As well as this there's a cumulative effect. Over time if you have to go somewhere where it's normal/accepted/expected then you naturally just don't want to go there.



I totally agree - toxic behaviour, even when not bullying saps energy, morale and instills fear at times. The impact of organisational productivity and your top performers is potentially massive. But unless you have actual clear cut examples, evidenced, and of a direct impact on your personally in a way that explicitly contravenes the bullying policy / code of conduct it's impossible to take it further. 

Even when you do have concrete evidence of bullying (and not just a "he said she said" situation) the worst case is usually a warning for the individual and they just learn to be more covert and cover their tracks better going forward. You still have to work with them, and usually whilst they might turn over a new leaf for a few months afterwards, a leopard doesn't change its spots. They just get cleverer about it and more subtle. And you would be surprised just how weak witnesses are in conveniently "not remembering" what happened as they son't want to get heat from the bully themselves.


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## becky (1 Oct 2022)

gravitygirl said:


> I totally agree - toxic behaviour, even when not bullying saps energy, morale and instills fear at times. The impact of organisational productivity and your top performers is potentially massive. But unless you have actual clear cut examples, evidenced, and of a direct impact on your personally in a way that explicitly contravenes the bullying policy / code of conduct it's impossible to take it further.
> 
> Even when you do have concrete evidence of bullying (and not just a "he said she said" situation) the worst case is usually a warning for the individual and they just learn to be more covert and cover their tracks better going forward. You still have to work with them, and usually whilst they might turn over a new leaf for a few months afterwards, a leopard doesn't change its spots. They just get cleverer about it and more subtle. And you would be surprised just how weak witnesses are in conveniently "not remembering" what happened as they son't want to get heat from the bully themselves.


I work with a toxic colleague. Her toxicity is she is plain and simple not a team player. Lazy does not describe it as she put lots of effort into it. She is extremely capable. 

She does' just enough', off her chair at 5pm on the dot. Nothing wrong with that I know. If she works a little extra, management hear about. She'll leave out it was only an extra 20 minutes. 

So, I had sisuation where my department needed help. Boss assigned her but over a few weeks she implied our department was to blame and this meant her work was suffering. 

It was done in a very subtle and passive aggressive way but nothing concrete. Me and my staff ended up even more stressed. My staff said they would sleep in the office to achieve what was needed rather than ever take help from her again. 

Her misson was therefore accomplished. 

I thankfully can avoid her 90% of time. But if it was a case I couldn't I'd move jobs.


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## messyleo (2 Oct 2022)

That kind of thing is so common unfortunately Becky and unfortunately equally difficult to prove in terms of the bullying conduct - passive aggression can often be explained away by innocence and charm (which often these people are excellent at behind the mask). That's also the kind of behaviour that doesn't seem to ever stop imho. It's psychological and emotional warfare and it is nigh on impossible to prove definitively to an investigator or whatever but is very, very serious in how it affects others. Street angel, house devil.

The "name calling" and getting visibly angry type of bullying is awful to experience too, but at least the "good" part is it is a lot easier to document and prove and i think when it is brought to the attention of the person, there is often a better chance they will check their behaviour subsequently (though not always).


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## wondering (2 Oct 2022)

Some advice I'd give for dealing with this type is to deal with them in writing as far as possible. Even if something said in-person, put in writing afterwards if possible - for example "Hi X, Just to confirm we agreed it for 9am on Tuesday. See you then."  
If agreement not kept then follow up, "Hi X, Confirming we rescheduled it to tomorrow, same time, because of Y this morning. ", etc
If it comes to it later then you have a list of incidents to refer to.  Do it even for smaller things that with a normal person you would let go of.

Resist the temptation to respond in person especially when they 'act out'. A basic hello or smalltalk but nothing beyond that.  Attention is what they're looking for, whether good or bad. You will find they may go to extremes then to get the attention.


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## becky (2 Oct 2022)

gravitygirl said:


> That kind of thing is so common unfortunately Becky and unfortunately equally difficult to prove in terms of the bullying conduct - passive aggression can often be explained away by innocence and charm (which often these people are excellent at behind the mask). That's also the kind of behaviour that doesn't seem to ever stop imho. It's psychological and emotional warfare and it is nigh on impossible to prove definitively to an investigator or whatever but is very, very serious in how it affects others. Street angel, house devil.
> 
> The "name calling" and getting visibly angry type of bullying is awful to experience too, but at least the "good" part is it is a lot easier to document and prove and i think when it is brought to the attention of the person, there is often a better chance they will check their behaviour subsequently (though not always).


Yes, she is extremely charming. I'm not the only person to be a victim of her 'carry on'. 

When the 'help' was finished I had a debriefing with my manager. I pointed out this particular individual has been involved in several 'incidents' over the years. This was my first one. 

My boss wanted to initiate mediation which I refused. This colleague has been a party to two mediations that I'm aware of. I've never been involved in any mediation. 

It actually happened during the 1st wave of Covid and the two colleagues who normally stepped in to help our department (we step in to help them) were WFH due to underlying conditions. 

I've learned to move on. No point in wasting my energy on her. 

I do have a certain level of admiration for her. She has managed to get to a decent salary level without doing much.


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## AlbacoreA (5 Oct 2022)

If a manager won't support you, I think its clear which side your bread is buttered. But that will be reflected in the support that manager gets from that employee going forward. 

If you keep doing tasks you don't like, you will just get more of them. If you don't do them, or do them poorly or slowly they'll stop asking you. That tends to a behavior management have cultivated. 

If you don't deal with toxic people, no one else will either.  You can expect low productivity around these people.


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## AlbacoreA (5 Oct 2022)

becky said:


> ...
> 
> I've learned to move on. No point in wasting my energy on her.
> 
> I do have a certain level of admiration for her. She has managed to get to a decent salary level without doing much.



I tend to do the same. Feint ignorance of what ever they are asking, so I don't have to deal with them. Because they just want you to do their work for them. Then take credit.


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