# What would be a fair price for bank to charge for their solicitor to check the deeds



## Dermot (11 May 2013)

I am currently looking at a business premises with a view to purchasing it. 

It is less than 10 years old, detached, freehold and with a small yard. The price will be in the region of 500k.

Has anyone any idea of what would be a reasonable price that I should have to pay to the Bank for checking title from their perspective.

My own solicitor will have all checked as per normal from my perspective. I would like to hear the views of posters on this for guidance.  I have been given prices from two Banks which I will update you on later but one is well over double of the other.

I would go so far as to say that neither are living in the real world or they are  looking after friends on a "panel" at customers expense.


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## Black Sheep (11 May 2013)

Perhaps your own solicitor will be able to guide you on this


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## Brendan Burgess (12 May 2013)

Is it normal practice for a lender to get their own solicitor to check the title? 

I thought that the solicitor for the purchaser verifies that the purchaser has good title. 

In the old days, there used to be three solicitors involved, but I had not heard of this practice recently. 

Are you, by any chance, using the vendor's solicitor as well? Or doing the conveyancing yourself? 

If the bank insists on their own solicitor, why don't you use their solicitor yourself? 

Brendan


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## mf1 (12 May 2013)

There is a ban on solicitors giving commercial undertakings and certifying title to a lender. If a commercial buyer has cash, his own solicitor can complete a purchase on his behalf. Where a buyer must borrow to complete the purchase, the bank can either just lend the money and hope for the best or, far more likely, they will retain their own solicitor, at the borrowers cost, to confirm the title. 

There is a complete move away from a solicitor acting for everyone - especially in commercial cases where the sums involved may be more substantial. A solicitor will not act for a lender and a borrower in a commercial transaction. It is still the norm in residential transactions.

mf


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## Brendan Burgess (12 May 2013)

Hi mf

That is interesting 


> There is a ban on solicitors giving commercial undertakings and certifying title to a lender.



Who issued the ban? 



> A solicitor will not act for a lender and a borrower in a commercial  transaction. It is still the norm in residential transactions.



When you say it's the norm, is it not the law?  I have a vague memory of some new regulation being brought out where the lender was not allowed insist on their own solicitor.  Or was it just an agreed change in practice which could change again if the lenders so choose?


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## mf1 (12 May 2013)

The Law Society issued the ban. Solicitors will also not be covered by professional indemnity insurance if they give commercial undertakings.

As regards consumer mortgages, the Law Society has agreement with the lenders as to the breadth and basis of the purchasers/borrowers solicitor's responsibilities to the Bank.The difference between commercial and residential undertakings is (a) value and (b)  the capacity for it all to go tots up!

 It was a free for all with commercial undertakings and some solicitors were giving undertakings on commercial transactions running to many millions where their exposure ( as happened) was very significant.

mf


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## Dermot (12 May 2013)

My solicitor has indicated a figure and he thinks what the Banks are quoting for a solicitor is well over the top but when you are at their mercy for the loan how do you get them to seek a lower rate. They offer you a loan and tell you that is the legal fees that our solicitor will be charging take it or leave it.


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## Importer (12 May 2013)

Yes, Isn't it a great step forward.....

Instead of having one Solicitor on each transaction, you now need two. One to do the job and the other to check that the 1st guy is doing the job properly!!!!!!

I assume the law society intervention in this matter is as much about job creation for Solicitors as anything else. The whole legal profession should be deeply ashamed of itself. The truth is of course that when Solicitors were entrusted with undertakings, they failed miserably. The outcome was that they could not be trusted to handle undertakings on behalf of lenders

in most decent civilized developed countries, no Solicitor is needed and the sooner we get to that situation, the better for us all.


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## MrEarl (12 May 2013)

Hello Dermot,

Do you know if the property title is held through the Registry of Deeds, or the Land Registry at present ?   ....  I know you say the unit itself is less circa 10-years old, but that doesn't guarantee Land Registry, for the actual title itself.

I would anticiate the Bank's panel solicitor to charge approx €750 plus vat and outlays, if it is a Land Registry property.   You could almost double that, if it is a Registry of Deeds property (with the need to have it registered at the Land Registry included, as part of the work to now be done, when you buy it).

Ask your Bank can they press the panel solicitor for a cheaper quote, once you've had the indication from them - it does no harm to ask and sometimes, you'll get a Bank staff member that will actually go and ask for you 

Regards

Mr. Earl.


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## Dermot (12 May 2013)

Thank you MrEarl,

I do not know where the Title is held.

Your figures are not off where my solicitor advised which I thank you for as it is nice to have a few opinions before you go bargaining.

I have an extremely strong positive from a Bank in relation to the Loan and they have indicated a figure of 3.5k which I have asked the person to cut a much better deal and they have indicated a willingness to do so.

What really provoked me was an 8K price from AIB and the attitude was that will be part of the package you take it or leave it.

Thanks again MrEarl


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## MrEarl (13 May 2013)

Hi Dermot, 

Happy to help, where I can.

That figure of €8k which AIB quoted - would that perhaps have been their indication of the overall costs for legal work, to include both Bank's solicitor and your own, along with any ancilary costs & outlays ?

The only other possibility is that there are a number of actual titles to the property your acquiring and each are problematic perhaps.

Don't be shy about contacting the vendor's solicitor and asking if the title is registered at the Registry of Deeds or Land Registry, if there are a number of titles to the property you are purchasing etc - these are not unreasonable questions and this knowledge will help ascertain if the fee indicated is excessive or not. 

Regards

Mr. Earl.


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## Dermot (13 May 2013)

Thanks Mr Earl,

Absolutely for their own solicitor only. 

I take your point about contacting the vendors solicitor 

A preliminary enquiry has indicated that the title is good without complications and has gone through the legal process in the last 7 years


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## Dermot (11 Sep 2013)

Sorry to be resurrecting this thread again but I am not much further on with the legal situation than before other than contracts are supposed to be with my solicitor tomorrow.  I have queried the bank in the last few days about their propose charges for their solicitor and they are not for giving any price for their solicitor.
I have put it to them that they have to give me an indicative quote as I cannot accept blindly any charge that may I may be billed for.
I do not want to go down the road afterwards of the Bank telling me that is what they are being charged by the solicitor and their solicitors stating as I am not their client that they cannot discuss anything with me.
There is something wrong with the system that does not give the person who is paying the bill some form of input into the cost.
The Bank has a panel of solicitors but from what I am hearing they just give it to one of the panel without looking for a quote.  The bank has no incentive to price it for their customer.
I will post more tomorrow when I have more detail on the type of deeds that are with the property.
This is a relatively small commercial property and I just got a call today that the Auctioneer wants €500.00 plus vat. for a valuation.  I asked did the price this valuation and was told that three Auctioneers quoted the same price. Looks like there is a cartel in operation
All advice will be appreciated.  I know I have limited negotiating power with them.
I thought there was a recession


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## noproblem (11 Sep 2013)

I smell a rummaging RAT (pack)


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## staff (12 Sep 2013)

If the amount the bank quoted you was €8K you also need to know that this is more than likely just the fee they are charging i.e. before 23% VAT plus any outlays / disbursements they might need to add on.  This fee could very easily turn into a fee more like €10K.

I would check that this figure is an all in figure and not just the initial fee.  If you are not familiar with solicitors fees you need to be aware of the above.


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## Vanilla (12 Sep 2013)

I have acted in several commercial purchases lately and the fee charged by the bank's solicitors in each case was €1000 plus VAT and outlays. Those transactions were in three different counties so it seems to be a fairly well established pricing.

I would suggest that you tell your bank you want a different panel solicitor, because of the fee, and tell your bank you want to be told the fee up front. The solicitors for the bank are correct in saying you are not their client, the bank is. But you are the banks client and you can push the bank.


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## Dermot (12 Sep 2013)

Thank you Vanilla, Mr Earl and everyone who has contributed to this thread.  I promised to update so as to give posters more information so as they can give me more more informed advice.

There is one title to the property.

The property is registered with Land Registry


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## Dermot (25 Sep 2013)

I am now dealing with Bank of Ireland for the Loan.  I have engaged with them on a number of aspects in relation to loan conditions including legal fees for their solicitor etc.  They have come down from €3,000 plus vat to yesterdays quote of €1,600 plus vat.

There is one title to the property.

The property is registered with Land Registry

The property is 10 years old.

I still think that this is too much as does my own solicitor.

The bank are adamant that this is the lowest they can get or that they will try for. 

I am not happy with the quote.  I have noted Mr Earl's and Vanilla's posts and they are in the price area that I am thinking about.


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