# Donegal Crash: Respect for the dead?



## Latrade (14 Jul 2010)

As tragic as the circumstances were, I'm a bit shocked at the quite vitriolic response I've seen to several news shows over the last few days when all the presenter has done is asked some reasonable questions about the crash. 

I understand people's personal grief, but I don't see anyone finger pointing, just asking some legitimate questions.

Like just how did it come that 8 people were travelling in a VW Passat? That's not blaming anyone for the accident, but is a question that came to me as soon as the details were annouced.

Second critical question is why is the road safety record of Donegal so bad? I love the county, but I really do dislike having to stay there with work. It's the only place where I never get a full night's sleep when in a hotel because of the boy racers up and down the streets and roads at night. Never have I heard or seen any Gardai response to these events.

People are genuinely stunned by the outcome and the circumstances (as we know it), I just resent being made to feel insensitive for having some concern about those circumstances.

Should we just keep our mouths shut and wait for the investigation? If so, why only in this case when every other suspected or demonstrated criminal activity is speculated over for months and years?


----------



## csirl (14 Jul 2010)

+1

When a significant proportion of the population in an area have a total lack of respect for road safety laws, why is anyone surprised when there are regular fatalities?


----------



## Sunny (14 Jul 2010)

I agree. The story is one of the saddest things I have heard in a very long time but if any good at all is going to come out of it, we need to ask the questions now while the media attention is on. They seem to have no problem showing dramatic ads. Well here is a real life tragedy that should be used an example to others. 

That doesn't mean not respecting the dead but the difficult questions need to be asked and answered.


----------



## Latrade (14 Jul 2010)

Most of the angry responses to the media have been Donegal based, naturally. I'd say most are from an understandable uncomfort with the media seemingly blaming the driver (I don't think they are), but there some that are defending the driving to some extent, usually on the issue of City folk Vs Country. I accept that there is a difference, but that's not a justification. I doesn't mean I can't wonder what each of the 8 in the Passat were thinking getting into it in the first place.


----------



## Ceist Beag (14 Jul 2010)

Completely agree with you Latrade. I think people need to get angrier about things like this because it really isn't good enough. Obviously I have sympathy with the families but I especially feel for the poor man on his way home from bingo to have his life ended like that. 8 people in one car is a danger to anyone else on the road and really these questions do need to be asked if anything is going to change.


----------



## callybags (14 Jul 2010)

I completely agree.

On Newstalk this morning they were discussing the crash and the view was- "Well it's very sad particularly as the lads were doing the right thing by all going in the one car as they had drink taken"

Doing the right thing?


----------



## Shawady (14 Jul 2010)

Latrade said:


> I'd say most are from an understandable uncomfort with the media seemingly blaming the driver (I don't think they are), but there some that are defending the driving to some extent, usually on the issue of City folk Vs Country.


 
I suppose we should wait until the full facts come out but it already looks like speed was the factor. To have 7 passengers in your car is crazy but to then drive at speed is showing a total disregard for the lives of your passengers and other road users.
There has already been several witnesses stating the car was driving very fast - one overtaken car even flashed them. The driver also had a previous conviction for dangerous driving.

An unbelievable waste of life.


----------



## TarfHead (14 Jul 2010)

Latrade said:


> Like just how did it come that 8 people were travelling in a VW Passat? That's not blaming anyone for the accident, but is a question that came to me as soon as the details were annouced.


 
That has been covered in the media reports I have read



Latrade said:


> Second critical question is why is the road safety record of Donegal so bad? I love the county, but I really do dislike having to stay there with work. It's the only place where I never get a full night's sleep when in a hotel because of the boy racers up and down the streets and roads at night. Never have I heard or seen any Gardai response to these events.


 
$64,000 question and, no single right answer. I've being holidaying in Inishowen off and on for over 40 years and the boy racer culture was in place in the 1960/70s. The street outside my granny's house was like a racetrack on weekend nights



Latrade said:


> Should we just keep our mouths shut and wait for the investigation? If so, why only in this case when every other suspected or demonstrated criminal activity is speculated over for months and years?


 
It's common practice in Ireland to give families space and time to grieve. I'm OK with that.


----------



## Ciaraella (14 Jul 2010)

How close to the northern ireland border is inishowen?
could alot of the boy racers be from the northern ireland side and Gardai cannot prosecute them? i wonder is this part of the reason it is so bad in this area?

My heart goes out to all concerned but 8 people in one speeding car is a recipe for disaster


----------



## TarfHead (14 Jul 2010)

Ciaraella said:


> How close to the northern ireland border is inishowen?


 
Very close. From Dublin, the most direct route is to go through Northern Ireland and exit at Muff, beyond Derry.

It amuses ,when in Culdaff, to hear people from Northern Ireland refer to being in 'The South', even though Culdaff is further north than any point in 'The North'  !


----------



## Mpsox (14 Jul 2010)

From what I heard on the radio, it was a Northern Ireland reg car that they were in. 

Whilst me heart goes out to those involved and their families, at the end of the day, 8 guys, in a NI reg car, speeding on a country road, at least 3 of whom cannot have been wearing seatbelts is a recipe for disaster. 

As for Gardai enforcement, harsh reality is that in country areas, there physically arenn't enough Guards to be everywhere. Because there are so few, if you live in the country, you almost know where the checkpoints will be and they usually don't come out until after closing time to try and get drunk drivers.


----------



## RMCF (14 Jul 2010)

Some silly comments on here, considering the grief there is up here.

The Gardai *can *prosecute an NI reg car for speeding or other road traffic incidents. Same as the PSNI *can *do to RoI cars in the North.

What does it matter than these guys were in an NI reg car? Whats that got to do with anything? There are hundreds if not thousands of NI reg cars being driven by Donegal residents - there is a huge push up here by the Customs to get VRT off people at present. 

We all know that 8 young folk in a car isn't clever, but it probably happens more than we ever know. I did it myself when I was that age. You tend not to think about your own safety when you are young, out socialising and having a bit of craic. However, occasionally things go badly wrong and innocent people suffer, like in this case. 

But it will not stop young people driving fast. Thats unreasonable to expect. Many always have, and always will. 

Also I don't think Donegal has any faster or more careless drivers than the rest of the country. I have seen many bad cases of driving all over IReland, the UK and Europe. Harsh to pick out one place. But what I can say for sure is that its probably got the worst quality roads through lack of investment. Road conditions have been blamed for deaths in the past up here.

I think that maybe we should show some respect and at least let these young people be buried before we start coming on and slagging them off on the internet.


----------



## Tinker Bell (14 Jul 2010)

Ceist Beag said:


> Completely agree with you Latrade. I think people need to get angrier about things like this because it really isn't good enough. Obviously I have sympathy with the families but I especially feel for the poor man on his way home from bingo to have his life ended like that. 8 people in one car is a danger to anyone else on the road and really these questions do need to be asked if anything is going to change.


The Gardai should not hide behing niceties in these cases. The grieving families know the truth ........... speed. In the TV interviews the Guard should call it as it is.


----------



## Ancutza (14 Jul 2010)

> I think that maybe we should show some respect and at least let these young people be buried before we start coming on and slagging them off on the internet


 
On foot of this comment I just read back through all the posts in this thread.  I fail to see any evidence of them being slagged off.  Everyone is simply bemused as to what possessed 8 of them to get into a car designed for 5.


----------



## Tinker Bell (14 Jul 2010)

ancutza said:


> on foot of this comment i just read back through all the posts in this thread. I fail to see any evidence of them being slagged off. Everyone is simply bemused as to what possessed 8 of them to get into a car designed for 5.


+1


----------



## starlite68 (14 Jul 2010)

RMCF said:


> I think that maybe we should show some respect and at least let these young people be buried before we start coming on and slagging them off on the internet.


 
i agree, let the familes have some space, when the investigation is finished and the facts are out, we can then all wag our fingers and let the media have its field day! but for now best just let these people greve in peace.


----------



## Homer (14 Jul 2010)

starlite68 said:


> i agree, let the familes have some space, when the investigation is finished and the facts are out, we can then all wag our fingers and let the media have its field day! but for now best just let these people greve in peace.


 
I understand what you're saying and my heart goes out to the families of those who died.  But the unfortunate fact is that the best opportunity to do something about changing attitudes to driving is in the immediate aftermath of a tragedy like this.


----------



## Pique318 (14 Jul 2010)

As usual, nothing will be explicitly said about the causes of this carnage, for fear of upsetting the families. Well I for one don't think they can be upset any more by telling their sons peers how they died, and why.
The driver had previous. He also had 7 others in the car with him and was speeding. To have sympathy for him is letting him off the hook IMO. "But he's got his own life sentence to look forward to" will be the refrain. Well that's more than his 7 friends. Yes, they were culpable in getting into a car that heavily overloaded, but ultimate responsibility lies with him and I hope he gets the book thrown at him and does serious prison time for it.
I live up in Donegal too. I heard the usual muppets tearing up the road near me on Monday night, flat out. Some time back, there was a crash in Dunfanaghy which killed 3 people (afair) and after the funerals (as in, within minutes), the muppets were tearing out and in the road into Dunfanaghy, past where their peers were killed !!!
It doesn't have to be a boy-racer car either, as this occasion shows, when it was a 'sensible car'. The mentality amongst the young people up here (speaking as someone not a whole pile older than them, at 34) is frightening.
I believe that everyone of their age should be shown the car wreckage of this and other crashes involving similarly aged people. Bravado would soon be eliminated if the realities of what can happen are shown up close.


----------



## shesells (15 Jul 2010)

RMCF said:


> We all know that 8 young folk in a car isn't clever, but it probably happens more than we ever know. I did it myself when I was that age. You tend not to think about your own safety when you are young, out socialising and having a bit of craic. However, occasionally things go badly wrong and innocent people suffer, like in this case.



It's not that it's not clever, it's illegal!! Road safety laws state that every passenger must wear their own seat belt. 5 belts in a saloon car means 5 passengers max.

Respect...yes I am sad that these people died...but the passengers in this car didn't have enough respect for their own lives to stay within the law and use the safety equipment provided...and that means that it's hard not to think that they were not totally innocent. 

The death that upsets me most was the elderly man. Wrong place, wrong time. 

May they all rest in peace


----------



## Mpsox (15 Jul 2010)

There was an interesting interview with a psycholigist from Trinity on Drivetime last evening. 2 things she said stuck in my mind

Firstly, in young men, the part of the brain the assesses risk/reward may not be fully developed by 18-20 years, it usually is after 23 when it is fully developed. Hence why young men are often far more likely to take risks like joining an army then those who are a bit older.

Secondly, peer behaviour is a big influence on young mens driving and an 18 year old with 3 people in his car of the same age is twice as likely to be killed in a crash then if he is one his own,  whilst for a 40 year old with 3 people the same age in his car, the risk of him being killed is less then if he was driving on his own.

Perhaps one solution to the problem may be a graduated driving licence scheme so that, for example, if you pass your test and are under a particuler age, you have to adhere to reduced speed limits, or can't carry passengers etc

Of course, all academic unless the laws are enforced


----------



## colin79ie (15 Jul 2010)

Pique318 said:


> The driver had previous.



Do you have evidence of this?

I know that he didn't have 'previous'!


----------



## fizzelina (15 Jul 2010)

It says here [broken link removed] that the driver was convicted in 2007 of dangerous driving. Which would have made him about 20 when convicted. I have family in Donegal and it is a county I hate driving in, particularly at night, there are more dangerous drivers there I have never felt as unsafe driving anywhere else due to the speeds I see on the roads in Donegal. I am very sad thinking of that poor pensioner losing his life after a night at bingo where he was delighted winning €65, he sat every week with his friends having a night out at bingo. It is sad those young men died, sadder that their irresponsibility of piling 8 into a car and careless driving is what caused the tragedy.


----------



## JP1234 (15 Jul 2010)

Pique318 said:


> A
> I believe that everyone of their age should be shown the car wreckage of this and other crashes involving similarly aged people. Bravado would soon be eliminated if the realities of what can happen are shown up close.



Honestly I am not even sure that would work. Just under 3 years ago a young (21 yr old) friend of mine was killed in a car crash. He was a passenger, been out all night, as had the driver and 2 other passengers. One passenger had earlier got out of the vehicle, the 2nd one ended up with a broken arm, driver escaped unhurt. Despite the deep shock at seeing him lying in his coffin, within a matter of weeks I was hearing them saying how they were ok to drive home after "only" a few beers or "only" a bottle of wine or seeing first hand the speeds they drove at. I was dismayed that the death of their friend and the sight of him lying there was not enough of a wake up call.  Only 2 weeks before he died he had crashed his own car while being over the limit. As sad as his death was there was a certain amount of inevitability about it

As for the driver of the car in Donegal getting the book thrown at him..some hope. The driver of my friend's car, despite having previous driving convictions and being found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving was sentenced to 3 years, will serve 2 at the most and will be out in March next year at the latest.


----------



## DB74 (15 Jul 2010)

Crush their cars IMO


----------



## Pique318 (15 Jul 2010)

colin79ie said:


> Do you have evidence of this?
> 
> I know that he didn't have 'previous'!


Well then you're mistaken. He was convicted (sounds like a court case moreso than just points) of Dangerous Driving in 2007.


----------



## colin79ie (15 Jul 2010)

I believe the Mr. Kelly who was convicted is not the same Mr Kelly. The media have jumped on this one, even though they have the name wrong. It's a bit like saying 'Mr Murphy' from Cork was convicted of....


----------



## micmclo (15 Jul 2010)

Reminds me of the case in Monaghan in 2007.
5 young men killed

The media reported they were playing chicken on the roads but the parish priest lashed out and didn't want any comments as it upset the families.

So we didn't realy learn anything from it


----------



## DB74 (15 Jul 2010)

colin79ie said:


> I believe the Mr. Kelly who was convicted is not the same Mr Kelly. The media have jumped on this one, even though they have the name wrong. It's a bit like saying 'Mr Murphy' from Cork was convicted of....


 
Either you believe or you know.

Which is it?


----------



## MrMan (15 Jul 2010)

micmclo said:


> Reminds me of the case in Monaghan in 2007.
> 5 young men killed
> 
> The media reported they were playing chicken on the roads but the parish priest lashed out and didn't want any comments as it upset the families.
> ...




In fairness what do we need to learn to understand that playing chicken isn't a good idea. Stories gather speed and get blown beyond the truth.


----------



## colin79ie (15 Jul 2010)

DB74 said:


> Either you believe or you know.
> 
> Which is it?



Well, I believe I know, and I know I believe so I cannot make my mind up, or can I?

Which is it?


----------



## Purple (16 Jul 2010)

I find it vary hard to have any sympathy for the 7 guys who died (ok, I have none what so ever). They all knew what they were doing. 

I have huge sympathy for the auld guy who was on his way home from Bingo and I have huge sympathy for the families of all of those who died.

I would like to see the driver prosecuted on 8 counts of murder.


----------



## Mpsox (16 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> I find it vary hard to have any sympathy for the 7 guys who died (ok, I have none what so ever). They all knew what they were doing.
> 
> I have huge sympathy for the auld guy who was on his way home from Bingo and I have huge sympathy for the families of all of those who died.
> 
> I would like to see the driver prosecuted on 8 counts of murder.


 
Bit of a contradiction if you want to prosecute one person for murder, yet you are also implying it was the victims own fault for being "murdered".

Murder also requires intent, I doubt very much if the driver set out intending to kill 8 people. 

Having said that, he is repsonsible for his passengers and in the same way if I have someone in my back seat with no belt on and I get stopped by the gardai, I'm going to get the fine/points, not the passenger. Ultimately the driver is responsible for allowing 7 people in his car, some of whom cannot have been wearing belts and if he was driving dangerously (and we can probably assume he was), then a prosecution for manslaughter will surely follow


----------



## shnaek (16 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> I find it vary hard to have any sympathy for the 7 guys who died (ok, I have none what so ever). They all knew what they were doing.
> 
> I have huge sympathy for the auld guy who was on his way home from Bingo and I have huge sympathy for the families of all of those who died.
> 
> I would like to see the driver prosecuted on 8 counts of murder.



Hear hear, though I would say manslaughter would be the appropriate charge if the overcrowding in the car and speed were to be proved in court.


----------



## Shawady (16 Jul 2010)

shnaek said:


> Hear hear, though I would say manslaughter would be the appropriate charge if the overcrowding in the car and speed were to be proved in court.


 
I suspect thats what will happen to him. There are already witnesses that he was driving dangerously.
However, I wonder if rather than spending a few years in prision, but it be of more benefit if he was made spend a couple of years visiting schools all over the country and telling his story?


----------



## MrMan (16 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> I find it vary hard to have any sympathy for the 7 guys who died (ok, I have none what so ever). They all knew what they were doing.
> 
> I have huge sympathy for the auld guy who was on his way home from Bingo and I have huge sympathy for the families of all of those who died.
> 
> I would like to see the driver prosecuted on 8 counts of murder.



So 7 young guys decide to do something foolish one night and it results in them being killed and another man also killed. You say good enough for them? 
We have all done stupid things and most of us have been lucky enough to get away with it.


----------



## VOR (16 Jul 2010)

I have huge sympathy for tha families and for that man who lost his life. I have some sympathy for the 7 involved as they paid the ultimate price for a moment of utter stupidity. But they're reckless action of over-crowding a car and the driver's outright disregard for the rules of the road and its users caused this accident.

The 7 guys did a foolish thing. We have all done stupid things but I would hope that most of us have never put others at risk by doing something so blatantly dangerous.


----------



## colin79ie (16 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> I find it vary hard to have any sympathy for the 7 guys who died (ok, I have none what so ever).
> I would like to see the driver prosecuted on 8 counts of murder.


----------



## Sunny (16 Jul 2010)

MrMan said:


> So 7 young guys decide to do something foolish one night and it results in them being killed and another man also killed. You say good enough for them?
> We have all done stupid things and most of us have been lucky enough to get away with it.


 
Where did he say 'good enough for them'? Nobody deserved to die but there was only one person in that crash who didn't go out and risk his life through idiotic actions. 

It is the most tragic story one can imagine and we can all have sympathy for all the dead and their families but let's not pretend that it was simply an unfortunate accicent because it wasn't.


----------



## Purple (16 Jul 2010)

MrMan said:


> So 7 young guys decide to do something foolish one night and it results in them being killed and another man also killed. You say good enough for them?
> We have all done stupid things and most of us have been lucky enough to get away with it.




8 Young men go out and knowingly do something very dangerous and highly illegal showing no regard for their lives or the lives of others or the grief and suffering they will inflict on their families and the families of those they kill. Shame on them all, most particularly the driver of the car.


----------



## csirl (16 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> 8 Young men go out and knowingly do something very dangerous and highly illegal showing no regard for their lives or the lives of others or the grief and suffering they will inflict on their families and the families of those they kill. Shame on them all, most particularly the driver of the car.


 
What they did is Darwin Awards stuff.


----------



## Latrade (16 Jul 2010)

csirl said:


> What they did is Darwin Awards stuff.


 
I'd be prepared for levity if it didn't involve the death of an innocent individual.


----------



## MrMan (16 Jul 2010)

Sunny said:


> Where did he say 'good enough for them'? Nobody deserved to die but there was only one person in that crash who didn't go out and risk his life through idiotic actions.
> 
> It is the most tragic story one can imagine and we can all have sympathy for all the dead and their families but let's not pretend that it was simply an unfortunate accicent because it wasn't.



If you say you have no sympathy it is akin to saying you got what you deserved.


----------



## Latrade (16 Jul 2010)

MrMan said:


> If you say you have no sympathy it is akin to saying you got what you deserved.


 
I'm not speaking for Sunny, but seeing as I seem to agree with Sunny on this,  I would disagree the two are the same. For me to sympathise with individuals would imply I empathise or indeed understand their dilemma. Indeed to use the oft quoted idiom "there but for the grace of God..."

However, in this situation I don't empathise with those in the car because I cannot put myself in that situation. That doesn't mean I feel they "got what they deserved". Lack of sympathy doesn't mean I'd gloat or cheer anyone's death in such situations.


----------



## MrMan (16 Jul 2010)

Latrade said:


> I'm not speaking for Sunny, but seeing as I seem to agree with Sunny on this,  I would disagree the two are the same. For me to sympathise with individuals would imply I empathise or indeed understand their dilemma. Indeed to use the oft quoted idiom "there but for the grace of God..."
> 
> However, in this situation I don't empathise with those in the car because I cannot put myself in that situation. That doesn't mean I feel they "got what they deserved". Lack of sympathy doesn't mean I'd gloat or cheer anyone's death in such situations.




So do you or don't you feel in any way sorry for the seven lads?


----------



## UptheDeise (16 Jul 2010)

MrMan said:


> So do you or don't you feel in any way sorry for the seven lads?


 

Is this some sort of an emoting contest for you?


----------



## MrMan (16 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> 8 Young men go out and knowingly do something very dangerous and highly illegal showing no regard for their lives or the lives of others or the grief and suffering they will inflict on their families and the families of those they kill. Shame on them all, most particularly the driver of the car.



they did something stupid, not malicious and you can say shame on them, but to feel no sympathy for them is very cold hearted.


----------



## MrMan (16 Jul 2010)

UptheDeise said:


> Is this some sort of an emoting contest for you?



Do you want to explain that assertion to me?


----------



## starlite68 (16 Jul 2010)

MrMan said:


> So 7 young guys decide to do something foolish one night and it results in them being killed and another man also killed. You say good enough for them?
> We have all done stupid things and most of us have been lucky enough to get away with it.


 
thats very true...........leist we forget!


----------



## Latrade (16 Jul 2010)

MrMan said:


> So do you or don't you feel in any way sorry for the seven lads?


 
As you say, we've all done stupid things and got away with it. Have I though done anything that stupid or reckless? In all honesty no. I may have done stuff that has potentially put myself in danger, but never others to that extent. 

So do I feel sorry for them, of course, the loss of life in such circumstances is always sorrowful. I'm a human being and don't wish to see life lost in any circumstances. I feel more sorry for their families though than I do the individuals. 

Splitting hairs: do I fully sympathise with them? No. I just don't. If it were a member of my family who the car had hit and killed and they had survived, if I'm honest the small warm bit of my heart would have only extended to giving them a head start to run away from me. 

Your implication is that by not sympathising, I'm wishing people dead or gloating over their deaths. If you wish to make emotion and responses to such situations as black and white as that then fine, but it just isn't the case and we both know it's more complicated than that. 

I'd love to say if it were a member of my family they had killed that I would be full of forgiveness, but I wouldn't be.


----------



## Sunny (16 Jul 2010)

MrMan said:


> If you say you have no sympathy it is akin to saying you got what you deserved.



I am sorry anyone is dead. I am sorry for the families. I am even sorry in a way for the driver who will have to live with this. However, it is time we stopped treating people who speed or drink and drive and who are involved in accidents as victims. They are not. The man coming home from bingo was a victim. How are kids going to learn if we keep treating events like this as an unavoidable accident. You might it distasteful but if pointing out the stupidity of those 8 people in the one cars saves one life, then it is worth it.


----------



## callybags (16 Jul 2010)

+1

I think the term "road traffic accident" should never be used. With very few exceptions, crashes are someones fault, therefore not an accident.


----------



## DB74 (16 Jul 2010)

I am not sorry for the driver who survived. He didn't learn from his first dangerous driving prosecution. I hope those 8 deaths haunt him every day for the rest of his life.


----------



## Chocks away (16 Jul 2010)

Sunny said:


> I am sorry anyone is dead. I am sorry for the families. I am even sorry in a way for the driver who will have to live with this. However, it is time we stopped treating people who speed or drink and drive and who are involved in accidents as victims. They are not. The man coming home from bingo was a victim. How are kids going to learn if we keep treating events like this as an unavoidable accident. You might it distasteful but if pointing out the stupidity of those 8 people in the one cars saves one life, then it is worth it.


Well said.


----------



## Moral Ethos (16 Jul 2010)

If the driver survives, it is unlikely the DPP will do anything.

You will have the families appealing for leniency pleading not to jail him.


----------



## Complainer (16 Jul 2010)

DB74 said:


> I hope those 8 deaths haunt him every day for the rest of his life.



I'm sure this will happen, but I don't see how it helps anyone.



Moral Ethos said:


> If the driver survives, it is unlikely the DPP will do anything.
> 
> You will have the families appealing for leniency pleading not to jail him.



The DPP won't hear pleas from the family members when deciding whether to prosecute. Those pleas might come out at sentencing stage.

Sad to see that some young drivers still haven't got the message:
[FONT=&quot]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64WiHXvczGc[/FONT]


----------



## RMCF (17 Jul 2010)

As terribly sad as this incident was, I can understand the views of some people.

I live in this area and to be honest I have witnessed silly and dangerous driving on many occasions over the last few years. And because of this, it can, sometimes, be difficult to find sympathy for anyone that kills themselves simply because they were driving too fast, recklessly or under the influence.

Its extra sad when they take innocents with them.

And although I do think that personal responsibility is the deciding factor here, there also needs to be a greater Gardai presence. Its common knowledge what areas of Inishowen are affected by these young drivers - they regularly use the same stretches of road to race on or speed. So many cannot understand why, if the man in the street knows it, that the Gardai aren't there sometimes to catch them in the act.

And when these young dangerous drivers are caught they need to be serverely punished. I think its time that a zero tolerance approach was brought in for young drivers. We have all done 65 in a 60 zone, but few of us do 100 in a 60 zone. I think its time that those who are caught doing very excessive speeds for the road/conditions get their licence taken off them for a long time (maybe 5 years?) to try to drive home the seriousness of their crime.

But we do need a greater presence on the roads by the Gardai. In all my years driving around the area, I could count on one hand the number of police speed camera's I've seen. I see plenty of them assisting the Customs recently in trying to bring in VRT fees, yet none out holding speed cameras.


----------



## Rois (17 Jul 2010)

I feel deeply sorry for all involved in this tragedy, whatever the circumstances (not that I am for one second condoning reckless driving).  

Any punishment the courts may hand down to the driver will pale into insignificance - he already has a life sentence of his own making.


----------



## Moral Ethos (17 Jul 2010)

> he already has a life sentence of his own making.


That will be the sort of line that will be trotted out by the families and his legal team if it ever goes to court.

It was the exact same line the Gardaí gave me when 2 of my friends were killed by a NI registered vehicle.


----------



## Purple (17 Jul 2010)

Moral Ethos said:


> That will be the sort of line that will be trotted out by the families and his legal team if it ever goes to court.
> 
> It was the exact same line the Gardaí gave me when 2 of my friends were killed by a NI registered vehicle.



I agree, and it's exactly the sort of rubbish that the juries in Donegal seem to take into account when they let people off for driving related homicides.


----------



## MrMan (17 Jul 2010)

Moral Ethos said:


> That will be the sort of line that will be trotted out by the families and his legal team if it ever goes to court.
> 
> It was the exact same line the Gardaí gave me when 2 of my friends were killed by a NI registered vehicle.



well it if comes from the families affected then one might assume that they are best placed to make that call.


----------



## Rois (17 Jul 2010)

Rois said:


> Any punishment the courts may hand down to the driver will pale into insignificance - he already has a life sentence of his own making.


 
See my original post - I did not say that the driver should be let off scott free by the courts, I think he should receive a fair sentence for his actions.  I'm simply pointing out that he will spend the rest of his life with the deaths of 8 people on his conscience (assuming he's not a psychopath).


----------



## Moral Ethos (17 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> I agree, and it's exactly the sort of rubbish that the juries in Donegal seem to take into account when they let people off for driving related homicides.


Move the cases to Dublin and you will get a different result.


----------



## starlite68 (17 Jul 2010)

MrMan said:


> well it if comes from the families affected then one might assume that they are best placed to make that call.


 
i would be of a mind to agree with that, after all they are the ones most affected.


----------



## RMCF (19 Jul 2010)

I see details are starting to filter through from the Gardai investigation.

Read that a combined speed of 140mph was involved in the collision that killed the 8 people. Assuming the man in his 60s coming from bingo was doing perhaps 40 or 50mph, it shows that this young driver was driving at a crazy speed.

Its really time that young people learned exactly what cars are capable of, and more importantly, what they aren't.


----------



## DB74 (19 Jul 2010)

Are those figures mph or kmph?


----------



## Moral Ethos (19 Jul 2010)

MPH.

The closing speed would be huge as it is the combined speed of the two vehicles.


----------



## dereko1969 (19 Jul 2010)

MrMan said:


> well it if comes from the families affected then one might assume that they are best placed to make that call.


 
Yes but what about the next time this person goes out driving? Who's to protect the rest of us, or will the next people he kills be entitled to ask the original 'victims' families why they thought he should be let off? 

The driver had already been done for dangerous driving, didn't learn his lesson, caused the deaths of 8 people, was driving an NI registered car, is it legally insured? was he using a fake address for insurance? 

while people might say, sure it's only VRT it's yet another sign of disrespect for the law which seems to be endemic in Donegal. what sort of a ban/fine was he given the first time?


----------



## RMCF (19 Jul 2010)

There's plenty of big issues here, the NI reg is irrelevant imho.

There are loads of NI regs belonging to Donegal residents. I see them every day and know plenty.

I could go out tomorrow and buy an NI car, call my insurance company and tell them to change over my insurance. All they will ask for is the reg and many will accept an NI reg, simply adding "you'll be changing over to a DL plate soon then?" at the end. But it will be insured.


----------



## colin79ie (19 Jul 2010)

RMCF said:


> I see details are starting to filter through from the Gardai investigation.
> 
> Read that a combined speed of 140mph was involved in the collision that killed the 8 people. Assuming the man in his 60s coming from bingo was doing perhaps 40 or 50mph, it shows that this young driver was driving at a crazy speed.



Speculation, at best, unless you can back it up with evidence.

The Gardai would be using Km/h, metres etc. The man in is 60s could have been doing 60 or 70 mph. One cannot make assumptions based on scanty information.

There was obviously a speed factor, and this is quite obvious. There is no excuse for excessive speed or overloading of the car. The driver should be punished accordingly and hopefully this will have an impact on the other young male drivers in the area.

The car involved in the initial collision may have been slightly on the wrong side of the white line, which, when the Passat collided with it on the blind corner, caused the Passat to lose control which would not have been possible to correct due to the speed, momentum and kinetic energy involved by having the extra weight of the additional passengers, resulting in severe understeer and the the collision with the Corolla.


----------



## Complainer (19 Jul 2010)

RMCF said:


> There are loads of NI regs belonging to Donegal residents. I see them every day and know plenty.


  But it is illegal - right? To own/drive an NI reg car while resident in ROI.


----------



## RMCF (19 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> But it is illegal - right? To own/drive an NI reg car while resident in ROI.



True. You are meant to pay VRT and get a DL plate.


----------



## Complainer (19 Jul 2010)

RMCF said:


> True. You are meant to pay VRT and get a DL plate.


Right - So most people will turn a blind eye towards this illegality in Donegal, and then most people are surprised when young guys turn a blind eye to speed limits/capacity limits/seat belt laws etc?


----------



## colin79ie (19 Jul 2010)

Complainer said:


> Right - So most people will turn a blind eye towards this illegality in Donegal, and then most people are surprised when young guys turn a blind eye to speed limits/capacity limits/seat belt laws etc?



So what you are saying is someone who doesn't pay their taxes is more likely to commit other crimes?

'Most' people in Donegal don't turn a blind eye towards this illegality. However, some people in border counties, not just Donegal, may have an issue paying VRT, when someone who lives a few miles away across the border can buy the same product for a third less. This is an entirely different issue of which there are threads available for debate on here and elsewhere.

I don't think the menatlity exists where people who drive NI reg cars flaunt road traffic legislation. One could also accuse drivers of cars imported from other EU countries such as Poland, Lithuania, latvia etc as being road traffic law breakers, but the majority of them are not.

A car is a car, no matter where it came from.


----------



## RMCF (19 Jul 2010)

I see its not just us road users in Donegal that have no respect for rules/laws:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/probe-as-clampers-lift-car-with-children-2263953.html


----------



## colin79ie (19 Jul 2010)

Being from the area where the accident occured, it appears that debris from the Passat was found further up the road from where the impact was. This would indicate that the Corolla 'pushed' the passat back the direction in which it came from after the impact. Now, assuming that the Corolla driver was doing a safe speed of around 70 - 80 km/h, and the weight of the passat with the extra passengers, the passat could not have been doing any great speed for that to happen. The laws of physics don't allow it. Although this distance is small it's still a distance. Both cars ended up in a ditch a few metres from where the impact was. This would imply that the combined force of the impact cancelled out the momentum of each car and causing them to mave laterally into the ditch. This also suggests that the passat was not moving fast. Judging by the state of the cars, it appears that the Passat was side-on to the corolla, perhaps skidding sideways.


----------



## RMCF (20 Jul 2010)

colin79ie said:


> Being from the area where the accident occured, it appears that debris from the Passat was found further up the road from where the impact was. This would indicate that the Corolla 'pushed' the passat back the direction in which it came from after the impact. Now, assuming that the Corolla driver was doing a safe speed of around 70 - 80 km/h, and the weight of the passat with the extra passengers, the passat could not have been doing any great speed for that to happen. The laws of physics don't allow it. Although this distance is small it's still a distance. Both cars ended up in a ditch a few metres from where the impact was. This would imply that the combined force of the impact cancelled out the momentum of each car and causing them to mave laterally into the ditch. This also suggests that the passat was not moving fast. Judging by the state of the cars, *it appears that the Passat was side-on to the corolla, perhaps skidding sideways*.



Probably because they had just hit another car a few seconds before impacting with the Corolla.


----------



## colin79ie (20 Jul 2010)

RMCF said:


> Probably because they had just hit another car a few seconds before impacting with the Corolla.



This fact is well known. But the question has yet to be answered whether the initial impact was caused by the Passat being on the wrong side and hitting the Megane, or if the Megane was on the wrong side of the white line, causing the Passat to collide with it as it did.

Locals have reported that a lady driving to Buncrana saw the woman, who she knew,  in the Megane and stopped to ask if she was ok. While talking, both of them then heard the impact of the other two cars around the corner. This could also suggest that the Passat was stopped or stopping as the time taken for this meeting to come about and then the impact afetrwards would suggest minute(s) between the initial impact and the final one. The excessive speed reported by the pasat would not afford that much of a time difference, considering the final impact was 150 metres up the road.

My own personal opinion is that the Passat struck the Megane at speed, lost control ( airbags deployed?) and then wobbled, skidded to a halt further up the road on the wrong side, with the passenger side facing oncoming traffic. The Corolla then came around the corner at a 'normal' speed and colided side on with the Passat, pushing it back down the road and into the ditch, with the Corolla landing on top of the Passat.

This is all however speculation and cannot be backed up with evidence from any reports, other than local knowledge. The real details should emerge as time goes on.


----------



## DB74 (20 Jul 2010)

The issue still being that it was the Passat travelling at excessive speed with excess weight that ultimately caused the accident and the deaths of eight men


----------



## csirl (20 Jul 2010)

colin79ie said:


> So what you are saying is someone who doesn't pay their taxes is more likely to commit other crimes?
> 
> .


 
Not paying taxes is a criminal offence. Yes, I would say that criminals are more likely to commit crimes than non-criminals. Dishonest people do dishonest things.


----------



## MrMan (20 Jul 2010)

dereko1969 said:


> Yes but what about the next time this person goes out driving? Who's to protect the rest of us, or will the next people he kills be entitled to ask the original 'victims' families why they thought he should be let off?
> 
> The driver had already been done for dangerous driving, didn't learn his lesson, caused the deaths of 8 people, was driving an NI registered car, is it legally insured? was he using a fake address for insurance?
> 
> while people might say, sure it's only VRT it's yet another sign of disrespect for the law which seems to be endemic in Donegal. what sort of a ban/fine was he given the first time?



Your whole post is one big assumption and is a fair reflection of how stories tend to mutate when the facts aren't at hand.


----------



## annR (20 Jul 2010)

colin79ie said:


> My own personal opinion is that the Passat struck the Megane at speed, lost control ( airbags deployed?) and then wobbled, skidded to a halt further up the road on the wrong side, with the passenger side facing oncoming traffic. The Corolla then came around the corner at a 'normal' speed and colided side on with the Passat, pushing it back down the road and into the ditch, with the Corolla landing on top of the Passat.



If the lady in the Megane was ok I don't think the Passat could have been travelling at an excessive speed when it hit her.  Going from your post Colin I think it's possible that the Passat was doing a normal speed but simply lost control of the car due to the number of people in it.  All speculation.


----------



## Moral Ethos (20 Jul 2010)

> All speculation


Indeed. We are not going to hear the whole story under there is either a criminal trial or until the inquests are held.


----------



## starlite68 (20 Jul 2010)

Moral Ethos said:


> Move the cases to Dublin and you will get a different result.


 so if a similar road crash happend in dublin would you want the case heard in donegal!


----------



## Moral Ethos (20 Jul 2010)

I would want no cases heard in Donegal.


----------



## starlite68 (20 Jul 2010)

Moral Ethos said:


> I would want no cases heard in Donegal.


 do you not think thats a bit insulting to the people of donegal, espically those that give their time up to sit on a dury


----------



## RMCF (20 Jul 2010)

colin79ie said:


> This fact is well known. But the question has yet to be answered whether the initial impact was caused by the Passat being on the wrong side and hitting the Megane, or if the Megane was on the wrong side of the white line, causing the Passat to collide with it as it did.
> 
> *Locals have reported that a lady driving to Buncrana saw the woman, who she knew,  in the Megane and stopped to ask if she was ok. While talking, both of them then heard the impact of the other two cars around the corner*. This could also suggest that the Passat was stopped or stopping as the time taken for this meeting to come about and then the impact afetrwards would suggest minute(s) between the initial impact and the final one. The excessive speed reported by the pasat would not afford that much of a time difference, considering the final impact was 150 metres up the road.
> 
> ...



1st - the front wheel of the Megane was actually ripped off by the Passat. Surely this would confirm that there was a lot of force (and by definition, speed) involved in that 1st collision.

2nd - Have the authorities not already said there was a combined speed of 140kmh or mph in the crash between the Passat and the Corolla? If you think the Passat was sitting at a halt, then you are claiming the pensioner in the Corolla was doing all the speed? Not possible surely.

From the reports from the emergency services saying that this was the worst car crash scene some had seen in their life, it must have been a horrific sight, and one which obviously involved massive speeds and carnage. I know its pointless guessing what happened until its actually published, but you have got to think that the Passat was the guilty car in all of this.


----------



## colin79ie (20 Jul 2010)

RMCF said:


> 1st - the front wheel of the Megane was actually ripped off by the Passat. Surely this would confirm that there was a lot of force (and by definition, speed) involved in that 1st collision.
> 
> 2nd - Have the authorities not already said there was a combined speed of 140kmh or mph in the crash between the Passat and the Corolla? If you think the Passat was sitting at a halt, then you are claiming the pensioner in the Corolla was doing all the speed? Not possible surely.
> 
> From the reports from the emergency services saying that this was the worst car crash scene some had seen in their life, it must have been a horrific sight, and one which obviously involved massive speeds and carnage. I know its pointless guessing what happened until its actually published, *but you have got to think that the Passat was the guilty car in all of this*.




Indeed, but the ONLY fact known so far about the incident is that the Passat was overloaded. The rest is rumour, chinese whispers and hearsay.

A combined speed of 140km/hr is not huge.


----------



## RMCF (20 Jul 2010)

colin79ie said:


> Indeed, but the ONLY fact known so far about the incident is that the Passat was overloaded. The rest is rumour, chinese whispers and hearsay.
> 
> A combined speed of 140km/hr is not huge.



Agree that we are hearing a lot of gossip and possibly untruths about this case. But thats to be expected.

I do think I read the combined speed was in mph NOT kmh. That would make a difference for sure. But not 100% sure of this.

And as you say a combined speed of 140kmh is not massive - would it have caused the carnage that the emergency services reported? Some of the reports about how these people died are truly frightening even if only half of it is true.


----------

