# Property Ladder - UCD Course



## Audrey (27 Sep 2005)

Anybody at the new PROPERTY LADDER course in UCD last night?  What did you think?  I was surprised at the turnout - absolutely jam packed.  Has all the signs of being a great course.


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## muzaway (27 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

I was there, yes, it was pretty packed alright and was interesting last night. 

I think it will certainly be a good introduction to the Irish and some overseas markets, though the forthcoming session on the Limerick and Munster market sounds a little bit like they didn't find another speaker after doing the course in Limerick, but we'll see. (Unless Munster is the new Bulgaria )


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## Audrey (27 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

Glad you enjoyed it too.  I'm looking forward to next Monday, as I've already bought in Bulgaria!!  So here's hoping I'll be proven right.  Have you made any inroads yourself, or are you waiting to get advice from this course before taking the plunge?


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## soma (27 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

Why not post what the course introduction was about & what it plans to cover..?


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## muzaway (27 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

Here's a brief summary of the course syllabus.

Week 1, yesterday: 
Overview of Irish market, a few minutes on financing an Irish investment (presented by Hooke and MacDonald and Irish Mortgage Corp...without too much plugging!)

Week 2: 
Opportunities in Croatia, Turkey and Bulgaria (presented by Aquarius Properties Abroad)
Valuation - science or guesswork (David Fitzgerald - Auctioneer)

Week 3: 
Process of overseas prop. acquisitions
Buying in baltic states, Germany and the UK (Stigma Private Equity Limited)
Budapest overview and opportunities in Ukraine and Kiev (Young Estate Agents)

Week 4: 
Internation prop. investment strategies
UK and US commericial investment opportunities (Investor First)
General Pitfalls to avoid when buying property (Diarmaid Condon - referenced in a recent post I believe - he writes for SBP)

Week 5: 
Tax implications of prop. investment at home and away

Week 6: 
Investment in Florida (Contempo Ireland)
Prop. opportunities in Ireland with focus on Limerick and Munster (The Property People)

Week 7: 
France - tax and legal info (Oui Can Do)
A landlords perspective on rental properties in Ireland ( Maureen Moran)

Week 8: 
Shanghai (Shanghai Vision)
Dubai ( Capital Eyes)


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## RainyDay (27 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

Looks like a captive audience for the sales guys, IMHO - Was there a fee involved in paying to get to see a pile of sales presentations?


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## muzaway (27 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

I imagine the presence of some sales folk is unavoidable. Although more journalists and analysts would be welcome.

It is up to those who attend the course to listen and sort out the BS from the fact.


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## soma (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*



			
				muzaway said:
			
		

> It is up to those who attend the course to listen and sort out the BS from the fact.



Agreed, but I'd be concerned over the number of vested interests who are presenting alright.

Ireland is often a really tough place to get impartial advice on almost anything.


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## ecstatic (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

how do u go to that / signup to goto? 
post details i may pop in just for a look...


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## Lilia (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

Looking at the agenda it looks a lot like what's being presented at property expo in Galway on 8th and 9th of October.  Some of the same agencies too.  And all in one day..

*Saturday, October 8th* 

*10am - 11am *_
Shanghai - The City of the 21st Century_ Seamus Keating of Shanghai Vision *

11am - 12am *
_Budapest: The Investment Opportunities _
Micheline McNamara and Reka Mayer of Budapest Investment Partners 

*12pm - 1pm *
_How to make the Best Profits in Emerging Markets _
Jonty & Alise Crossick of Ready 2 Invest 

*1pm - 2pm *
_An Overview of Property in the UK, with Market Specifics on Nottingham _
James D. McGrath of Lacemarket Properties & James Connolly of Homesellers Ltd. 

*2pm - 3pm *
_Self-Directed Pensions: Financing Foreign Property Through Your Pension _
Pat Surlis of Just Financial 

*3pm - 4pm *
_Tax Implications for Foreign Investment: focusing on Hungary, Bulgaria & Portugal_
Sonia McEntee - Tax & Legal Director Of KenDar Holdings Ltd. 

*4pm - 5pm *
_Opportunities for Investors in the Emerging Property Markets of Croatia, Turkey, Bulgaria & Montenegro_
Noreen Hynes of Aquarius Properties Abroad 

*5pm - 6pm *
_Investing in French Leaseback Property _
Pat Cody of Azur Assistance


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## ClubMan (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

Does anybody else find it odd that this is described as a "course" as opposed to a sales pitch?


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## annR (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

Depends on the content I would think.  There is scope for the presenter to go in either direction.  It would probably only be really instructive if the audience was good for asking difficult questions and watching the reaction.


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## ClubMan (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

According to the "course" syllabus outlined above by _muzaway _all modules are presented by people with a vested interest in selling property - this hardly bodes well for getting a balanced appraisal of the issues involved (e.g. the risks involved, how to decide that property as opposed to some other investment strategy is appropriate in specific circumstances etc.).


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## ecstatic (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

obviously this is a sales pitch but id like to hear it as i want to see what lies they tell.. isnt that a good enough reason to tip along ???


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## ClubMan (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

I wouldn't pay €150 (or anything) to tip along for a sales pitch but each to their own.


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## soma (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Does anybody else find it odd that this is described as a "course" as opposed to a sales pitch?



Well IMHO a course should be teaching you how to cut out the middleman.. but this course is basically being *given* by middlemen so they're hardly going to do that..


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## ecstatic (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

either would i pay €150 thats a ripoff didnt know it cost thought it was free...!


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## Duplex (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

People go to these courses because they are being told what they want to here, would anyone attend a course on property bubbles and their cosequences? and pay $150 for the privilege ?


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## muzaway (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

When I outlined the course syllabus I included the people or companies who were presenting each piece. Why? To indicate that I am aware that these folks all have vested interests.

What is wrong with attending the course and listening to what is being said? I am not an expert on property investment, or any type of investment for that matter, but I'm trying to learn by reading and researching in my spare time. Going along to this course is just another aspect of that research. 

If I do choose to purchase property here or abroad I will do so having thoroughly investigated the decision and after seeking advice.

People at mondays session were asking questions of the gentlemen from Hooke and MacDonald and were quick to point out instances where they were simplifying matters or only pointing out the upside. 

Finally, I would be interested to see recommendations of independent, disinterested presenters on these topics and locations.


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## Audrey (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*

Muzaway

I echo those sentiments 100%.  I was there too, as you know, and of course the presenters have some bias, but we're not all (those attending) without the brains to work that one out!!  Still, it's one part of an overall project of research and investigation for my part (similar to you).  I think we will get an overall feel for the market that we may not have had before the course, and also I intend to learn more about the financial end of things.  Also, as I think I said before, I've bought in Bulgaria and some will be interested in next Monday's talk in that regard.  I don't think there's any danger that any one of us is actually going to buy a property from these guys as a result of the course, but if and when we do buy a property, from anyone, we will be a little better equipped than we were prior to the course.  Good luck Muzaway.  Might see you at the drinks machine during the break on Monday!!  BTW, went to that machine on Monday night and pay the extortionate price of €2.20 for a slightly orange drink.


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## ClubMan (28 Sep 2005)

*Re: Property Ladder*



			
				muzaway said:
			
		

> People at mondays session were asking questions of the gentlemen from Hooke and MacDonald and were quick to point out instances where they were simplifying matters or only pointing out the upside.


Why pay €150 for the privilege of correcting somebody's biased sales pitch when the money could arguably be better spent on obtaining truly independent information and advice? Seems a bit of a waste to me.


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## DonKing (28 Sep 2005)

I went to an exhibition in the RDS last March and they had seminars on throughout the day. The content is probably similiar to the UCD course.

I got two free tickets for the exhibition at Citywest this weekend. (I think it's $15 entrannce without a ticket) According to the ticket they'll have seminars running throughout the day covering Law, Tax, Maintenance, Rentals, Tourism, Finance, Pensions, Building, Travel. 

I found myself that alot of the info presented is quite general and as mentioned earlier on the thread it's when good questions are raised during the Q&A that the seminar normally gets interesting.

Anyway one of the presenters at the RDS John Howell (I think he presented continously!) runs a firm of solicitors based in London who specialise in European LAw. They have made all their presentation material available on their website. Pdf and powerpoint files. They cover most of europe. 

But the best part is, it's free!!
www.europelaw.com


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Sep 2005)

Well that explains it!

As I was heading up to J104 with around 10 others to do my Latin course, I wondered what was happening in Theatre M to attract such a motley crew, not normally the type of people attending the extra-mural courses in UCD. 

I do find it astonishing that UCD would give the status of education to what seems like a giant sales pitch. In the  brochure it gives no indication that the course will be given by sales people. The course director is a Mary Fitzgerald, but it does not give any information about her in the "Your tutors" section. 

Brendan


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## Lilia (29 Sep 2005)

Yeah when I saw the names I was surprised too that it was on in UCD.  It's clever of them to put it on in a respected uni and charge for it because that makes it look like a real course.  If it was on in a hotel and free, people would immediately see it as a sales pitch.  However, I think there is surely a lot of good to be had out of it so for anyone who has paid their money and signed up, then good for you, ask all the right questions and as long as you know that they have a vested interest then you can take what you want out of it.  It will surely be of some benefit.


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## DonKing (29 Sep 2005)

A Mary Fitzgerald (I presume it's the same one) actually organises one of the annual big property seminars. I'm not sure if it the ones at Citywest or the RDS.

I would imagine directing 'Educational Courses' is not her main line of business.

You have to admit though, it's a clever little earner on her part. I'd say none of the contributers received a fee and the punters paid €150 each for glorified sales pitches! 

Nice one.


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## DonKing (29 Sep 2005)

I did a google(selected Ireland sites only and searched for Mary Fitzgerald PR) on our Mary to see what I could find. She certainly gets around!
Shes a PR consultant and her contact details are

Tel: 01-4321 560-Dublin Office
Mobile: 086-2520181
e-mail: mefitzgerald@eircom.net

She'e been doing a number of 'Educational Courses' over the last number of months here are a couple of examples

“Horses for Courses” A Course on Horseracing in Ireland
Department of Lifelong Learning, University of Limerick
[broken link removed]

“Location, Location, Location” 
Property Investors Course (Spring Semester)
Director: 
Mary Fitzgerald, Press, Public Relations, Marketing Consultant
[broken link removed]

She's also involved in a recruitment agency
[broken link removed]

Now the most interesting thing is that she is the PR and marketing manager of the Eurpean Consumer Centre Dublin. www.eccdublin.ie

This organisation amonsgt other things provides advice information on consumer rights. The legal advisor is a Barry Fitzgerald but that may be a co incidence. On the contact page our Mary uses 'O'Reilly'. Perhaps her maiden name. It mightn't look good to have two Fitzgeralds on the contact list. These PR people don't get paid the big bucks for nothing!

Mary's contact detials at the EEC are:
Mary Denise Fitzgerald
European Consumer Centre 
PR & Marketing Manager 
01 8090607 
086 8057339
maryd@eccdublin.ie 

By the way the ECC is co-funded by office of the Director of consumer affairs.


Now according to the Marketing Services directory [broken link removed]

Mary Fitzgeralds company, well at least Fitzgerald Communications is certified to a whole rake of codes of practice including

THE MARKET RESEARCH SOCIETY (UK)

ESOMAR

CODE OF ADVERTISING STANDARDS FOR IRELAND

THE IRISH DIRECT MARKETING ASSOCIATION

THE MARKETING INSTITUTE OF IRELAND

INTERNATIONAL PUBLIC RELATIONS ASSOCIATION

THE EUROPEAN PUBLIC RELATIONS CONFEDERATION

GRAPHIC DESIGN BUSINESS ASSOCIATION

ASSOCIATION FOR QUALITATIVE RESEARCH 

INTERNATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS CONSULTANCY ORG

IRISH INSTITUTE OF SALES PROMOTION CONSULTANTS

WAPOR

THE INSTITUTE OF MANAGEMENT CONSULTANTS IN IRELAND

I wonder would all the above organisations approve of the promotion of the Property training at UCD?


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## ixus (30 Sep 2005)

I was looking at doing 1 or 2 of those evening courses, particularly the Importing & Exporting Trade and the one about understanding the Stock Market. 
Anyone do any of these, and if so any comments?


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## CoffeeBrew (3 Oct 2005)

DonKing said:
			
		

> I did a google(selected Ireland sites only and searched for Mary Fitzgerald PR) on our Mary to see what I could find. She certainly gets around!
> Shes a PR consultant and her contact details are
> 
> Tel: 01-4321 560-Dublin Office
> ...


 
There was a picture of Mary in yesterday's SBPost.
Mary, the property promotor, was standing with a politician and a senior executive from the media.
All happy and smiling.

Says it all really ! but for completeness they should have added a bank executive.


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## Audrey (3 Oct 2005)

Is there something wrong with the noticeboard/thread board today?  Has anybody noticed anything strange?  It seems to indicate to me that a reply was posted under "Property Ladder" at "11.48 a.m. today" but the last post I see there is one I posted myself some days back.  Is there something wrong with the clock and calendar??


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## ClubMan (3 Oct 2005)

Can't see any problem with the site/server. Try clearing your brower's cache or forcing a refresh by pressing the _Ctrl _and _F5 _keys at the same time.


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## Audrey (4 Oct 2005)

Muzzaway

What did you think of last night's "class"?  Wasn't Noreen really very good?  I thought she was very enthusiastic without being too biased.  I feel better now about all that money I've spent in Bulgaria!!


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## RainyDay (4 Oct 2005)

Andrewa said:
			
		

> Muzzaway
> 
> What did you think of last night's "class"?  Wasn't Noreen really very good?  I thought she was very enthusiastic without being too biased.  I feel better now about all that money I've spent in Bulgaria!!


No offence, but this seems ludicrous to me. You're paying to attend sales presentations which make you feel better about past investments!

Why not just hand over all your money to Mary straight away and ask her to look after it for you?


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## muzaway (4 Oct 2005)

Hi Andrewa,
I thought she was interesting and her general tips on what to look out for when assessing a potential investment were valid, but I would have liked to hear her pointing out some possible downsides as well. 

She did mention that the development in places like Sunny Beach was fairly un-regulated in comparision with places like Croatia and Montenegro, but I'd like to hear of who has actually made money in Bulgaria...it seems that most of the gains there are on paper so far. 

Is there a re-sale market and are investors receiving a rental income on their properties?

Her statement that Bulgaria is increasingly where Irish people are now going on their hols just doesn't ring through to me.

I thought the valuer was very interesting and was glad to see him saying that property is not the only way to invest and that things can and do go wrong as I'd be worried that some of the presentation are pitching more towards Speculation than investment and are only showing the upside. I'd like to see more folks like him presenting.


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## Card (4 Oct 2005)

Been to Sunny Beach, no shortage of new apartments for sale all over the resort, estate agents offices everywhere! Everywhere you went here where signs selling apartments and building sites with signs announcing new developements. That's what I noticed when I was over there.


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## Audrey (4 Oct 2005)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> No offence, but this seems ludicrous to me. You're paying to attend sales presentations which make you feel better about past investments!
> 
> Why not just hand over all your money to Mary straight away and ask her to look after it for you?


 
No offence taken!  Actually I'm not paying to attend a presentation to make me feel better about past investments.  I'm paying to learn, and I'm learning.  However, if I feel better about past investments in the process, should I apologise??   RainyDay - take a chill pill!!


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## Audrey (4 Oct 2005)

Hi Muzaway
Yes I noticed the reference to regulation there, and, of course, it's fairly new and therefore unproven.  It does seem to me however that by the time a country or a region becomes a proven good investment it's almost too late.  Like the guy said last night "If you can see the bandwagon (or badwagon?!) it's too late".  Rainy Day is having a bad hair day - I do hate begrudgers - don't you?!


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## Card (4 Oct 2005)

Andrewa
You're the one doing the course, so will probably know more than me, but would my observations from my time spent in Sunny Beach not perhaps indicate that the bandwagon is speeding through this region? 
My wife was seriously perplexed with the amount of development in the area and the amounts of property which was available for sale.


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## ClubMan (4 Oct 2005)

Andrewa said:
			
		

> I feel better now about all that money I've spent in Bulgaria!!


Did you feel bad about it before the "course"? If so, why?


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## Audrey (4 Oct 2005)

I didn't feel bad about it before the course.  I felt very good about it.  I feel even better now!


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