# Gardai: kicked handcuffed male into the back



## shootingstar (21 Jul 2008)

I just saw 3 gardai escort a male handcuffed person from a garda car into the garda station. As the handcuffed male began to walk up the 3 steps the male garda kicked him into the back and sent him flying up the steps!!! surely this isnt allowed? Do I complain, coz i REALLY REALLY want to?


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## Ham Slicer (21 Jul 2008)

If you think it's worthy of a complaint well then do so.  

If it was me I'd leave it alone.


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## shootingstar (21 Jul 2008)

why?


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## MrMan (21 Jul 2008)

must have been some kick to kick up the stairs and into his back, at least it shows the force are getting fitter.


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## Ham Slicer (21 Jul 2008)

shootingstar said:


> why?



I doubt it was unwarranted.


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## SNOWBALL (21 Jul 2008)

probaly had good reason to do it- contact the seargent from the station if you feel strongly about it.


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## ClubMan (21 Jul 2008)

Contact the GSOC if you want to make a complaint.


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## ClubMan (21 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> I doubt it was unwarranted.


When exactly do you consider assault warranted?


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## shootingstar (21 Jul 2008)

Thanks for the link. 

I understand people wanting to leave well alone. But I saw it myself and I was a little enraged from my office window watching it. The guy got a SAVAGE kick, he went flying up the steps. Not just a bit of a kick, it was done with force. I hate that carry on. i obviously didnt see what the guy did or said to the garda on the way to the station or why he was arrested but in all fairness I dont think the gardai are allowed to physically harm a person in custody.. Thats just not right.


(on a different note, Clubman is there something wrong with the site today? its acting a bit strange... and very slow to load. everything else opening fine)


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## z103 (21 Jul 2008)

This is what they do in public, consider what happens in the back of the police van, or in the cell.


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## MrMan (21 Jul 2008)

Ya and consider what the scumbag in the back of the  police van or cell is capable of doing to them.


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## ClubMan (21 Jul 2008)

shootingstar said:


> (on a different note, Clubman is there something wrong with the site today? its acting a bit strange... and very slow to load. everything else opening fine)


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## ClubMan (21 Jul 2008)

MrMan said:


> Ya and consider what the scumbag in the back of the  police van or cell is capable of doing to them.


How on earth do you know that he was a scumbag?  

Judging by some of the posts on _AAM _today on alleged crime and punishment issues I hope that certain _AAM _posters are never called for jury duty!


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## shootingstar (21 Jul 2008)

MrMan said:


> Ya and consider what the scumbag in the back of the  police van or cell is capable of doing to them.



not all prisoners are scumbags. there are such things as false arrests. That particular guy could have been asked to the station for his help with  their enquiries. He may well have said he couldnt at that particular time and the "control freak" garda might have enforced it. you just dont know.... but i hear what your saying...


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## Ham Slicer (21 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> When exactly do you consider assault warranted?



If someone urinated or defecated in the back of my van or car.  If someone spat in my face.  If I saw a piece of dirt mugging an old person etc. etc.


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## rmelly (21 Jul 2008)

shootingstar said:


> That particular guy could have been asked to the station for his help with their enquiries. He may well have said he couldnt at that particular time and the "control freak" garda might have enforced it.


 
It's unlikely he'd have been handcuffed in this situation though?


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## DavyJones (21 Jul 2008)

If I were you Shootingstar I would have a chat with the station sargent. If I wasn't happy with his/her response I would take it further. As a law abidding citizen (mostly) I take great offence to know that the gardai act in this way.


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## DavyJones (21 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> If someone urinated or defecated in the back of my van or car.  If someone spat in my face.  If I saw a piece of dirt mugging an old person etc. etc.


]
If my aunt had...............


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## Ham Slicer (21 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> ]
> If my aunt had...............




I don't understand your point.


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## ClubMan (21 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> If someone urinated or defecated in the back of my van or car. If someone spat in my face. If I saw a piece of dirt mugging an old person etc. etc.



Well (a) none of these situations applied here from the details posted above and (b) I'm not sure that you would be acting legally in assaulting somebody even in those situations.


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## DavyJones (21 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> I don't understand your point.



My point is thats a lot of ifs, and even if he did all that and more I would hope that Gardai are well trained professionals that have to rise above it. When the Gardai deal with "scumbags" they in turn should not sink to their level.


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## Ham Slicer (21 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Well (a) none of these situations applied here from the details posted above and (b) I'm not sure that you would be acting legally in assaulting somebody even in those situations.



I only gave three examples - there are numerous other reasons I would feel it would be justified.  Nobody knows why he was kicked.  I'm willing to take my chances that he deserved it.

Legally or not, in the 3 examples I gave I would feel justified in carrying out an "assault"

If the OP feels it needs to be reported then it should be reported.


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## webtax (21 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> I only gave three examples - there are numerous other reasons I would feel it would be justified.


 
There was a case in the news a few months ago about a young man who died in garda custody where his family alleged he was assaulted. In light of this it's hardly appropriate to condone the assault of someone being taken into custody, especially when you are 'taking your chances that they deserved it'


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## Ham Slicer (21 Jul 2008)

webtax said:


> What about the case of the young man who died in garda custody that was in the news a few months ago - would that (alleged assault) be justified?




I'm not aware of the actual case but I'll have to take your word for it that it was an alleged assault.


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## MrMan (21 Jul 2008)

> How on earth do you know that he was a scumbag?



I didn't say the guy in question was a scumbag i was refering to leghorns post:



> This is what they do in public, consider what happens in the back of the police van, or in the cell.



I think its a balancing act and unfortunately its the smart mouthed eejits who probably get a beating rather than the hardened criminals who seem to have the run of the country both inside and outside prison.


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## kkontour (21 Jul 2008)

No such thing as a warranted assault.  Kicking a handcuffed detainee in the back shows a garda out of control.  The Gardi are paid to take suspects into custody for processing.  A judge/jury will hand down the punishment if found guilty.  Its called the judicial system.
A single Garda dishing it out is not justice.


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## Yoltan (21 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> I only gave three examples - there are numerous other reasons I would feel it would be justified. Nobody knows why he was kicked. I'm willing to take my chances that he deserved it.


 
I agree. About time the gardai toughened up!


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## Guest114 (21 Jul 2008)

Hopefully it's the start of zero tolerance. The Gardai need to toughen up. I'm encouraged by such news.


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## z103 (21 Jul 2008)

> I'm encouraged by such news.


In what way 'encouraged'? - encouraged to give someone a swift kick in the kidneys perhaps?


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## damson (21 Jul 2008)

rmelly said:


> > Originally Posted by *shootingstar*
> > _That particular guy could have been asked to the station for his help with their enquiries. He may well have said he couldnt at that particular time and the "control freak" garda might have enforced it._
> 
> 
> It's unlikely he'd have been handcuffed in this situation though?


Take a look at  (and the hyperlinks to the video it contains - also [broken link removed]) for a scenario when a simple speeding ticket got way out of hand last autumn in Utah.


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## MrMan (21 Jul 2008)

damson said:


> Take a look at  (and the hyperlinks to the video it contains - also [broken link removed]) for a scenario when a simple speeding ticket got way out of hand last autumn in Utah.



I don't think anyones condoning tasering speeders even though the rsa might think about using it as a deterrent.


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## Guest114 (21 Jul 2008)

leghorn said:


> In what way 'encouraged'? - encouraged to give someone a swift kick in the kidneys perhaps?


 
Encouraged that the heavy hand of the law is back


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## damson (21 Jul 2008)

MrMan said:


> I don't think anyones condoning tasering speeders even though the rsa might think about using it as a deterrent.


No, I just meant it as an example of a situation where something that should have been a simple non-violent law enforcement situation got completely out of control, due to poor handling of the event by both parties.


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## Newbie! (21 Jul 2008)

AlistairDick said:


> Hopefully it's the start of zero tolerance. The Gardai need to toughen up. I'm encouraged by such news.



Encouraged by further violence? Personally, I would be very disilussioned to think that the people we trust to keep law and order in our country are resorting to violence and bully tactics. Im all for zero tolerance but in the form of heavier sentences. I agree with the original poster -if you feel you need to report it, then do so.


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## bond-007 (21 Jul 2008)

If the OP wants to complain, he/she should contact the GSOC directly and not contact any members in the station concerned.


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## Sunny (22 Jul 2008)

I am all for Guards standing up for themselves and being allowed to use force to protect themselves but kicking a handcuffed person in the back like the OP described is plain and simply assault. The OP should complain if he feels uncomfortable with what he saw. It also wasn't the cleverest thing to do in the open. Should have waited to get him in the cells and then given him a good kicking!


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## shootingstar (22 Jul 2008)

I still haven`t called over there. But I most definitely will today. I also see that there is CCTV cameras pointing down at the door so it must have been recorded..


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## Purple (22 Jul 2008)

shootingstar said:


> I just saw 3 gardai escort a male handcuffed person from a garda car into the garda station. As the handcuffed male began to walk up the 3 steps the male garda kicked him into the back and sent him flying up the steps!!! surely this isnt allowed? Do I complain, coz i REALLY REALLY want to?


 There is no way that I would make a complaint to the station. A family member did so after he witnessed as assault by two gardai in Galway and experienced 18 months of low-level harassment for his troubles.


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## ClubMan (22 Jul 2008)

shootingstar said:


> I still haven`t called over there. But I most definitely will today.


Any update?


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## z106 (22 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> There is no way that I would make a complaint to the station. A family member did so after he witnessed as assault by two gardai in Galway and experienced 18 months of low-level harassment for his troubles.


 
Out of curiosity - can you elaborate on 'low-level harassment'.

i'm intrigued as to what they did.


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## Teabag (22 Jul 2008)

qwertyuiop said:


> Out of curiosity - can you elaborate on 'low-level harassment'.
> 
> i'm intrigued as to what they did.



Lucky he was in Galway, if it were Donegal Gardai, it would be high-level harassment...


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## bond-007 (22 Jul 2008)

Low level harassment consists of things like getting stopped very often for trivial things. Tax inspection several times a day, getting stopped for going 1 km/h over the limit. Loads of parking tickets, refusal to sign forms etc. 

The high level stuff, is scary in comparison.


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## shipibo (22 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> If someone urinated or defecated in the back of my van or car.  If someone spat in my face.  If I saw a piece of dirt mugging an old person etc. etc.



This can be added to charge list, and is the legal approach.

Assault is Assault, and particularly cowardly as the prisoner was handcuffed.


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## Purple (22 Jul 2008)

bond-007 said:


> Low level harassment consists of things like getting stopped very often for trivial things. Tax inspection several times a day, getting stopped for going 1 km/h over the limit. Loads of parking tickets, refusal to sign forms etc.
> 
> The high level stuff, is scary in comparison.


Yep, that's the sort of thing.


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## ClubMan (22 Jul 2008)

bond-007 said:


> Low level harassment consists of things like getting stopped very often for trivial things. Tax inspection several times a day, getting stopped for going 1 km/h over the limit. Loads of parking tickets, refusal to sign forms etc.
> 
> The high level stuff, is scary in comparison.


This is the sort of thing that the _GSOC _are there to deal with. Of course perhaps this predated their establishment? I'm not sure if/how they deal with retrospective complaints...


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## S.L.F (22 Jul 2008)

I don't believe the gardai have anything to fear if you go and complain.

[broken link removed]


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## ClubMan (23 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> I don't believe the gardai have anything to fear if you go and complain.
> 
> [broken link removed]


Actually one was.


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## Ham Slicer (23 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> I don't believe the gardai have anything to fear if you go and complain.
> 
> [broken link removed]



Interesting this was brought up.  A Garda friend of mine was working that day and he said that they were subject to a high level of intimidation by the crowd.

He had guys standing almost nose to nose shouting abuse and urging him to have a go.  Throwing shadow punches and kicks right in his face.  The squad car he was sitting in at another time was almost toppled over by the crowd.  Strangley none of this was caught on camera by the tree huggers.

The Garda that was caught on camera was unfortunate if you ask me.  He did nothing more than the Garda that beat the English football fans at Lansdowne a good few years ago.  I don't recall anyone compaining about that.


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## Caveat (23 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> Interesting this was brought up. A Garda friend of mine was working that day and he said that they were subject to a high level of intimidation by the crowd.


 
Maybe, but do all those in the footage represent "the crowd" ? - surely only some of the crowd were involved in the provocation? Anyway, still no grounds for vicious assault.


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## ClubMan (23 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> The Garda that was caught on camera was unfortunate if you ask me.


Was it ever explained satisfactorily why he was not wearing his identifying number as required by _Garda _rules and, as far as I know, the law?


> He did nothing more than the Garda that beat the English football fans at Lansdowne a good few years ago.  I don't recall anyone compaining about that.


Actually many people did at the time. Many innocent _English _fans were injured in those attacks.


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## MrMan (23 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> I don't believe the gardai have anything to fear if you go and complain.
> 
> [broken link removed]



Itsn hard to judge when you can't see whats been said or done by the 'victims'.



> Maybe, but do all those in the footage represent "the crowd" ? - surely only some of the crowd were involved in the provocation? Anyway, still no grounds for vicious assault.



And not all those in the crowd were being 'assaulted'. There are situations where there is a crowd and you can't simply keep asking people to move or obey the law and I'm sure they didn't enter into physical confrontation lightly.


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## Caveat (23 Jul 2008)

MrMan said:


> ...and I'm sure they didn't enter into physical confrontation lightly.


 
Then why, as has been reported, were they not wearing their ID numbers?


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## Sunny (23 Jul 2008)

Caveat said:


> Then why, as has been reported, were they not wearing their ID numbers?


 
I think the reason given was that an emergency call went out so all guards who were on lunch breaks, just finished duty etc were asked to respond immediately and some of them had taken off the ID numbers and didn't put them back on. I don't know how true this is.


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## Caveat (23 Jul 2008)

Sunny said:


> I don't know how true this is.


 
I don't know either.  But I can have a good guess.


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## z105 (23 Jul 2008)

> English football fans at Lansdowne





> _English _fans



Hardly Football fans, lets keep perspective here.


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## ClubMan (23 Jul 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Hardly Football fans, lets keep perspective here.


Huh!!?


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## Ham Slicer (23 Jul 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> Hardly Football fans, lets keep perspective here.



OK we'll call them people.  Same point.

Not sure why they weren't wearing their numbers and can't recall what excuse was given at the time.  

If someone tries to topple my car over, essentially endangering my life they will be "assualted" if that's what you want to call it.

Crumdub12 - What exactly is the charge for urinating in the back of a garda car?


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## Simeon (23 Jul 2008)

Sunny said:


> I think the reason given was that an emergency call went out so all guards who were on lunch breaks, just finished duty etc were asked to respond immediately and some of them had taken off the ID numbers and didn't put them back on. I don't know how true this is.


Here we've got the scenario of a few cops not being able to eat their meals whilst wearing their IDs! And those very same ones not being able to affix them on during the journey. How did these fellows ever pass out at Templemore? As far as I remember, one of these keen upholders of law and order has since been promoted. If promoting a guy who beats the daylights out of an unruly protester is the way they do things, we are lucky to have any rank and filers. The response to most complaints is to close rank and get their PR man to do just that ......... PR. As for police investigating police? What a joke. It's like having having a jury of thieves serving in a robbery case.


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## Sunny (23 Jul 2008)

Simeon said:


> Here we've got the scenario of a few cops not being able to eat their meals whilst wearing their IDs! And those very same ones not being able to affix them on during the journey. How did these fellows ever pass out at Templemore? As far as I remember, one of these keen upholders of law and order has since been promoted. If promoting a guy who beats the daylights out of an unruly protester is the way they do things, we are lucky to have any rank and filers. The response to most complaints is to close rank and get their PR man to do just that ......... PR. As for police investigating police? What a joke. It's like having having a jury of thieves serving in a robbery case.


 
I am not sticking up for the guards but lets get this into prespective here. The OP should report what they have seen as there is no excuse for it. Lets see what response they get before judging the complaints procedure. I actually know one member of the gardai who is currently under investigation for excess force. Without commenting on details of the case or possible guilt, I can see first hand the effect the investigation is having on him (suspended from duty, facing possible criminal prosecution, family devastated, on anti-depressants). This is the way it has to be and he accepts it but annoymous posters shouldn't come on here insulting an entire police force based on a few bad apples. The same garda above was assualted in work a couple of years ago requiring hospital treatment. The person who did it claimed he was high on drugs, got a supended sentance and a small fine. Not exactly justice either.


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## Simeon (23 Jul 2008)

Adrenalin is also a drug. Let's see how the case pans out. Was the fellow who was high on drugs suspended on full pay while waiting for the outcome/court case? Maybe he was self medicating because of another injustice? Recently there have been tales of shop/cafe owners being 'encouraged' by uniformed guards not to charge. It may or may not be true. But until we realise that there are more than a few bad apples, we should adopt a questioning attitude to any unusual activity by the boys/girls in blue.


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## ClubMan (23 Jul 2008)

Sunny said:


> The OP should report what they have seen as there is no excuse for it. Lets see what response they get before judging the complaints procedure.


I agree. No word from the _OP _so I wonder if they have bothered to report the issue after all?


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## MrMan (23 Jul 2008)

> Then why, as has been reported, were they not wearing their ID numbers?



The beating would be ok with the ID badges in place then?




> If promoting a guy who beats the daylights out of an unruly protester is the way they do things, we are lucky to have any rank and filers.


Maybe just maybe he was promoted for the other work that he was doing. An unruly protester sounds like someone that was shouting boo hiss rather than what tends to happen when mobs form.



> Adrenalin is also a drug.


 A natural legal one.



> But until we realise that there are more than a few bad apples, we should adopt a questioning attitude to any unusual activity by the boys/girls in blue.


And maybe we should stop making assumptions as to why bad people do bad things and simply encourage guards to take the necessary action to rid our society of the continual build up of thugs and scumbags that have gradually become more and more brazen in their actions. If anything the guards are guilty of not doing enough, being intimidated and afraid of confronting the worst offenders. 
The worst  offenders weren't in the reclaim the streets protests but when people show a clear lack of respect for the law it should be nipped in the bud.


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## Caveat (23 Jul 2008)

MrMan said:


> The beating would be ok with the ID badges in place then?


 
Ah c'mon - you know what I meant. 

I was responding to your suggestion that they didn't enter into confrontation lightly. My suggestion is that the decision for the gardaí to 'confront' was all but made prior to them showing up - and also that they were willing to 'engage' to an extent whereby they did not wish to be identified.

Anyway, it's OT and maybe as mentioned we should wait for Shootingstar's response.


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## kkman (23 Jul 2008)

a friend of mine has recently joined the gardai. he was telling me about a car chase he was involved in a few weeks ago. a teenage scumbag stole a car and ran riot through a housing estate almost killing some kids in the process and terrorising all the families in the estate. he then left the estate and proceeded to drive the wrong way up a dual carrageway with gardai following. a woman with her two kids in the car coming the opposite way was hit by the scumbag and narrowely escaped death or serious injury. the gardai eventually stopped the scumbag with some stingers thrown accross the road. my friend and his workmates proceeded to arrest the scumbag, they were spat at and assaulted while doing so. a large knife was found on the scumbag. my friend and the guards gave the scumbag a few digs when placing him in the car. i dont see anything wrong with that...


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## ClubMan (23 Jul 2008)

kkman said:


> my friend and the guards gave the scumbag a few digs when placing him in the car. i dont see anything wrong with that...


Regardless of the mitigating/extenuating circumstances it simply *is *wrong and illegal.


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## kkman (23 Jul 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Regardless of the mitigating/extenuating circumstances it simply *is *wrong and illegal.


 illegal? it could be argued that you are wrong actually. the gardai were assaulted and spat at, so they defended themselves. I dont think many people would agre with you when you say the gardai were wrong in this situation.......


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## DavyJones (23 Jul 2008)

kkman said:


> illegal? it could be argued that you are wrong actually. the gardai were assaulted and spat at, so they defended themselves. I dont think many people would agre with you when you say the gardai were wrong in this situation.......




Ever hear of reasonable force? How many gardai (grown men) against this teenager?


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## ClubMan (23 Jul 2008)

kkman said:


> illegal? it could be argued that you are wrong actually. the gardai were assaulted and spat at, so they defended themselves. I dont think many people would agre with you when you say the gardai were wrong in this situation.......


As _DJ _said...


DavyJones said:


> Ever hear of reasonable force? How many gardai (grown men) against this teenager?


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## Pique318 (23 Jul 2008)

Resisting arrest is grounds for a more, ahem 'robust' modus operandi on the part of the Gardai, imo. 
Unfortunately, what's (arguably) illegal and what's 'right', are sometimes the same thing (no comments on Iraqi invasion) and the PC brigade are spouting from their soapboxes about inquires and ombudsmen etc.
Young apprentice scumbags have absolutely no respect for, or fear of, the law. This manifests itself in being brazen and 'hard men' even when being arrested. A few digs might settle them down so that the Gardai are not in unnecessary danger when doing their jobs to keep the place safe.

If word got out that anyone caught by the Gardai was likely to receive a less-than-gentle welcome, with little chance of being seen as the victim, it may slightly change attitudes by the 13 year-old hoodies running about the place.


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## Pique318 (23 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Ever hear of reasonable force? How many gardai (grown men) against this teenager?



I've seen plenty of teenagers who could easily take down a 'grown' man. Add to that the threat of jail, and they become much more dangerous. If said teenager was drunk/coked up/whatever, the threat increases again. Why have pity on such a specimen. He should count himself lucky that he wasn't being scraped off the road.


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## MrMan (23 Jul 2008)

Pique318 said:


> I've seen plenty of teenagers who could easily take down a 'grown' man. Add to that the threat of jail, and they become much more dangerous. If said teenager was drunk/coked up/whatever, the threat increases again. Why have pity on such a specimen. He should count himself lucky that he wasn't being scraped off the road.



Unfortunately the response to this scenario from some will be the teenager could be drunk/stoned because he was depressed from another injustice against him!
People should realise that even kids younger than teens are capable of terrible acts and are absolutely fearless of the law. Outside of the legalities of guards getting heavy handed with offenders I don't think the majority would think it was wrong.


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## Sunny (23 Jul 2008)

I just think it is very hard to pass judgement unless you have been in the situation. None of us want to see people being beaten a la Rodney King but at the same time, I can also understand why sometimes Gardai use more than reasonable force. I already said that I think the incident seen by the OP should be reported as there is no excuse for kicking a handcuffed man (whatever the verbals) but at the same time, we need to have a sense of prespective. The job that the Guards do is dangerous and they deal with alot of not very nice people who probably don't share the same sense of right and wrong as people on AAM. Not every situation is black and white.


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## DavyJones (23 Jul 2008)

Pique318 said:


> I've seen plenty of teenagers who could easily take down a 'grown' man. Add to that the threat of jail, and they become much more dangerous. If said teenager was drunk/coked up/whatever, the threat increases again. Why have pity on such a specimen. He should count himself lucky that he wasn't being scraped off the road.



Did you read the story? Stingers, car chase etc. This was more then 1 man v boy. Half of the police force seemed to be there. I don't pity law breakers esp when they should know the law, I.E Gardai.


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## Sunny (23 Jul 2008)

Simeon said:


> Recently there have been tales of shop/cafe owners being 'encouraged' by uniformed guards not to charge. It may or may not be true. But until we realise that there are more than a few bad apples, we should adopt a questioning attitude to any unusual activity by the boys/girls in blue.


 
There are also 'tales' about all our pilots and doctors getting drugged up before going on duty. There are 'tales' that immigrants can get a free car if they claim they were racially abused on public transport. There are 'tales' about everything but it doesn't make it true


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## Pique318 (23 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Did you read the story? Stingers, car chase etc. This was more then 1 man v boy. Half of the police force seemed to be there. I don't pity law breakers esp when they should know the law, I.E Gardai.



Yes I read the story, and I saw what was written.
Calling him a 'boy' is slightly misleading. A 17 year-old is still a teenager, and no boy.
'Half the police force' is very misleading and not representative of the probable scenario where 2 or possibly 3 Gardai were trying to control the suspect. Any more than that and they get in each others way. Now, 2 or 3 people trying to control a (possibly) 17 year-old male, who wants to get away, is not "Police brutes assault young boy".


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## z103 (23 Jul 2008)

> This manifests itself in being brazen and 'hard men' even when being arrested. A few digs might settle them down so that the Gardai are not in unnecessary danger when doing their jobs to keep the place safe.


I would say that violence would make the offender worse.
Fighting fire with fire.


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## Sunny (23 Jul 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Did you read the story? Stingers, car chase etc. This was more then 1 man v boy. Half of the police force seemed to be there. I don't pity law breakers esp when they should know the law, I.E Gardai.


 
What do you do for a living? Have you ever tried arresting anyone carrying a knife, resisting arrest and spitting at you? So he got a few digs? Big deal. If he felt he was so harshly treated, I am sure he complained to his solicitor who then in turn contacted the GSOC. Its very easy for people here to judge situations and be morally superior tucked safely behind their computers.


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## DavyJones (23 Jul 2008)

Sunny said:


> What do you do for a living? Have you ever tried arresting anyone carrying a knife, resisting arrest and spitting at you? So he got a few digs? Big deal. If he felt he was so harshly treated, I am sure he complained to his solicitor who then in turn contacted the GSOC. Its very easy for people here to judge situations and be morally superior tucked safely behind their computers.



You are also judging the situation without being there ,(unless you are your mate and now are just trying to defend your actions)  My apoligise mistook you for kkman!

What I do for a living is irrevelant to this discussion.

The Gardai, in my book should be trained professionals that should be equiped to deal with violent offenders (lets face it, its what ye get paid to do,  and it shouldn't come as a surprise when someone resists arrest). The Gardai (keepers of the peace) should do just that.


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## shipibo (23 Jul 2008)

Sunny said:


> What do you do for a living? .


 
What has that got to do with this discussion ???



Sunny said:


> Have you ever tried arresting anyone carrying a knife, resisting arrest and spitting at you? .


 
A bit overexaggerated



Sunny said:


> So he got a few digs? Big deal.


 
Nice .........



Sunny said:


> Its very easy for people here to judge situations and be morally superior tucked safely behind their computers.


 
You said it Sunny


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## Sunny (23 Jul 2008)

crumdub12 said:


> A bit overexaggerated


 
Why? Thats how the poster described it. Its amazing how everything can become so black and white in these discussions.


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## kkman (23 Jul 2008)

i know some posters are taking the scumbags side here, but the fact is is that if i was arresting a scumbag that almost killed my workmates and almost killed a young mum and her kids, then assualted me and spat at me i see no problem giving a few digs. I have a few friends who are guards and they all say that if they were arresting a scumbag in this situation, they would use as much force as is needed and taking down the scumbag quickly is very important. most scum are armed these days with knives and blood filled syringes. add to that most of them are high on drugs which makes them immune to pain and very strong (depending on the drug) using as much force as possible diffuses the situation quickly and efficently, so the gardai are safe


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## Sunny (23 Jul 2008)

Things could be worse

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/22/taser.death/index.html?eref=rss_topstories


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## DeeFox (23 Jul 2008)

My partner is a Guard (recently qualified) and he has been threatened, headbutted and spat at.  Imagine if this happened to you on a regular basis in the course of your work?   He has never "given a dig" to anyone he has dealings with...but this is something he could not say with certainty will never happen.  He says that it is a very hard job sometimes and a huge amount of their time is taken up with the "known scumbags in the area" - fellows who are unemployable and who have absolutely no respect for the law.  I do not have a problem with a Guard using "excessive force" on a person who is acting up - the Guard is not doing it for the good of his health but rather because he thinks the situation merits it.  Yes, it can be said that maybe in hindsight the force used was excessive but it is easy to say that from the comfort of your desk.  Holding onto a angry, possibly drugged up man who is saying he knows where you live may provoke a reaction from the most gentle of people.  For those who think Guards should be super human and ignore the things these scumbags say and do to them, I say come down off the soap box and spend a day in a busy police station and see what the Guards really have to put up with on a daily basis.
OP - make a complaint by all means; just bear in mind that these situations are not always black and white.


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## z103 (23 Jul 2008)

> Imagine if this happened to you on a regular basis in the course of your work?


Why should I imagine that? People have a choice, in Ireland no one is forced to joined the guards.
They are also very, very well paid.


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## shipibo (23 Jul 2008)

DeeFox said:


> My partner is a Guard (recently qualified) and he has been threatened, headbutted and spat at. Imagine if this happened to you on a regular basis in the course of your work? He has never "given a dig" to anyone he has dealings with...but this is something he could not say with certainty will never happen. He says that it is a very hard job sometimes and a huge amount of their time is taken up with the "known scumbags in the area" - fellows who are unemployable and who have absolutely no respect for the law. I do not have a problem with a Guard using "excessive force" on a person who is acting up - the Guard is not doing it for the good of his health but rather because he thinks the situation merits it. Yes, it can be said that maybe in hindsight the force used was excessive but it is easy to say that from the comfort of your desk. Holding onto a angry, possibly drugged up man who is saying he knows where you live may provoke a reaction from the most gentle of people. For those who think Guards should be super human and ignore the things these scumbags say and do to them, I say come down off the soap box and spend a day in a busy police station and see what the Guards really have to put up with on a daily basis.
> OP - make a complaint by all means; just bear in mind that these situations are not always black and white.


 

I appreciate its a hard job, and if you are spit on you will react, but initial case in thread was a man handcuffed in street.

common assumption throughout this thread is Garda would only use excessive force against scumbags , who threaten , intimidate and provoke them ..... as you said, not all issues are black and white


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## S.L.F (23 Jul 2008)

If the gardai had done nothing wrong during the reclaim the streets parade then  shouldn't have happened.

AFAIK not even 1 gardai got injured during the 'riot'.

I understand the only gardai to be punished got a 1 month suspended sentence and he's still a gardai.

Thank you Clubman for proving me wrong, the gardai was not jailed, not fined, didn't lose his job, I'm not sure whether or not he even said sorry to his victims or indeed if anyone from the Gardai Siochana said sorry to the victims of these assaults.
Punishment indeed.

People have been jailed for far less things see here.


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## REMFAN (23 Jul 2008)

kkman said:


> i know some posters are taking the scumbags side here, but the fact is is that if i was arresting a scumbag that almost killed my workmates and almost killed a young mum and her kids, then assualted me and spat at me i see no problem giving a few digs. I have a few friends who are guards and they all say that if they were arresting a scumbag in this situation, they would use as much force as is needed and taking down the scumbag quickly is very important. most scum are armed these days with knives and blood filled syringes. add to that most of them are high on drugs which makes them immune to pain and very strong (depending on the drug) using as much force as possible diffuses the situation quickly and efficently, so the gardai are safe


 
Wasn't this kid in handcuffs already? It's a disgrace that any Guard would assult a person while taking them into custody. Those guys should go back to college as they missed the class which told them that assulting the public is a crime. Shame on them.


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## REMFAN (23 Jul 2008)

OP, what was the outcome of this thread? I'm sure we'd all like to know how you got on.


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## S.L.F (23 Jul 2008)

REMFAN said:


> OP, what was the outcome of this thread? I'm sure we'd all like to know how you got on.



If she went to the station to complain Shootingstar's probably going to be out of touch for a while.


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## DavyJones (23 Jul 2008)

DeeFox said:


> My partner is a Guard (recently qualified) and he has been threatened, headbutted and spat at.  Imagine if this happened to you on a regular basis in the course of your work?   He has never "given a dig" to anyone he has dealings with...but this is something he could not say with certainty will never happen.  He says that it is a very hard job sometimes and a huge amount of their time is taken up with the "known scumbags in the area" - fellows who are unemployable and who have absolutely no respect for the law.  I do not have a problem with a Guard using "excessive force" on a person who is acting up - the Guard is not doing it for the good of his health but rather because he thinks the situation merits it.  Yes, it can be said that maybe in hindsight the force used was excessive but it is easy to say that from the comfort of your desk.  Holding onto a angry, possibly drugged up man who is saying he knows where you live may provoke a reaction from the most gentle of people.  For those who think Guards should be super human and ignore the things these scumbags say and do to them, I say come down off the soap box and spend a day in a busy police station and see what the Guards really have to put up with on a daily basis.
> OP - make a complaint by all means; just bear in mind that these situations are not always black and white.



If someone was to spit in my face, I would have more then words with them. But I'm not a trained pro, for that matter I would find it very difficult to sit across from a rapist/child killer/pimp etc and interview them in a lawfull manner. Why? because it's not the career I chose. 
The law keepers in this country know what they sign up for.


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## kkman (23 Jul 2008)

leghorn said:


> Why should I imagine that? People have a choice, in Ireland no one is forced to joined the guards.
> They are also very, very well paid.


 useful alright....


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## kkman (23 Jul 2008)

i remember a well respected local guard years ago who would put any local lads involved in a fight on a weekend into the back of the patrol car and drive about 6 miles out oftown up the hills. he would then take their shoes off them and let them walk home. after a 6 mile walk in stocking feet they calmed down a bit. he would keep their shoes in the station and give them back on request. this practice solved a lot of anti social behaviour in the area, but i think the guard in question got into trouble years later for doing this. pity really, cos it worked.


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## kkman (23 Jul 2008)

DeeFox said:


> My partner is a Guard (recently qualified) and he has been threatened, headbutted and spat at. Imagine if this happened to you on a regular basis in the course of your work? He has never "given a dig" to anyone he has dealings with...but this is something he could not say with certainty will never happen. He says that it is a very hard job sometimes and a huge amount of their time is taken up with the "known scumbags in the area" - fellows who are unemployable and who have absolutely no respect for the law. I do not have a problem with a Guard using "excessive force" on a person who is acting up - the Guard is not doing it for the good of his health but rather because he thinks the situation merits it. Yes, it can be said that maybe in hindsight the force used was excessive but it is easy to say that from the comfort of your desk. Holding onto a angry, possibly drugged up man who is saying he knows where you live may provoke a reaction from the most gentle of people. For those who think Guards should be super human and ignore the things these scumbags say and do to them, I say come down off the soap box and spend a day in a busy police station and see what the Guards really have to put up with on a daily basis.
> OP - make a complaint by all means; just bear in mind that these situations are not always black and white.


spot on...


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## z103 (24 Jul 2008)

> useful alright....


Glad you found my opinion useful.


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## Purple (24 Jul 2008)

kkman said:


> i know some posters are taking the scumbags side here, but the fact is is that if i was arresting a scumbag that almost killed my workmates and almost killed a young mum and her kids, then assualted me and spat at me i see no problem giving a few digs. I have a few friends who are guards and they all say that if they were arresting a scumbag in this situation, they would use as much force as is needed and taking down the scumbag quickly is very important. most scum are armed these days with knives and blood filled syringes. add to that most of them are high on drugs which makes them immune to pain and very strong (depending on the drug) using as much force as possible diffuses the situation quickly and efficently, so the gardai are safe


"As much for as possible"? 
Do you mean as much force as necessary?

Do remember that the police have the power to deprive a fellow citizen of their liberty. Given that they have these powers they have a responsibility to behave in a professional and controlled way when carrying out their duties.


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## kkman (24 Jul 2008)

Purple said:


> "As much for as possible"?
> Do you mean as much force as necessary?
> 
> Do remember that the police have the power to deprive a fellow citizen of their liberty. Given that they have these powers they have a responsibility to behave in a professional and controlled way when carrying out their duties.


i didnt say " as much force as possible" i said " as much force as needed" given the situation, read again. if i was arresting a scumbag who was armed and almost killed my colleagues and a mum of 2, i would be using as much force as i could, otherwise i would risk being killed or someone else being killed. why do people insist on taking the scumbags side?


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## ClubMan (24 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> Thank you Clubman for proving me wrong, the gardai was not jailed, not fined, didn't lose his job, I'm not sure whether or not he even said sorry to his victims or indeed if anyone from the Gardai Siochana said sorry to the victims of these assaults.
> Punishment indeed.


He was convicted though and that directly contradicts what you said earlier.


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## Caveat (24 Jul 2008)

kkman said:


> i didnt say " as much force as possible" i said " as much force as needed"


 
kkman, you said:



kkman said:


> ... they would use *as much force as is needed* and taking down the scumbag quickly is very important...


 
...and then you said:



> ...*using as much force as possible* diffuses the situation quickly and efficently, so the gardai are safe...


 
Hope I never have you taking down my statement


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## S.L.F (24 Jul 2008)

Clubman

You are totally correct.

As always.

If I always had time to search the internet like you do I'd have been able to find that info too.

I was just going by what I remembered I wasn't aware that this was an exam .

I just don't consider getting a suspended sentence punishment enough.

Since this section is about chat, answer me a question why are you repeating yourself.

First you say this

which proves your point

Then you repeat yourself with



ClubMan said:


> He was convicted though and that directly contradicts what you said earlier.



Have you nothing new to add to this thread?


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## ClubMan (24 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> Clubman
> 
> You are totally correct.
> 
> ...


Unlike your post above you mean?


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## S.L.F (25 Jul 2008)

S.L.F said:


> *Clubman
> 
> You are totally correct.
> 
> ...





ClubMan said:


> Unlike your post above you mean?



The only bit I can see in my post that repeated itself was



> I just don't consider getting a suspended sentence punishment enough.



So  to you too.


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## sidzer (29 Jul 2008)

I once overheard two detectives interview a guy while investigating a crime (robbery). I thought it was the mob - the threats were flying and the language was nasty. This guy was no angel and the guards may have had reason to suspect him - however I was not impressed. 

The Gardai need to maintain the highest standards - kicking a handcuffed man in the back brings the state down never mind the force.


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## Complainer (30 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> Interesting this was brought up.  A Garda friend of mine was working that day and he said that they were subject to a high level of intimidation by the crowd.
> 
> He had guys standing almost nose to nose shouting abuse and urging him to have a go.  Throwing shadow punches and kicks right in his face.  The squad car he was sitting in at another time was almost toppled over by the crowd.  Strangley none of this was caught on camera by the tree huggers.


Equally strange how none of this intimidation was caught on camera by RTE or TV3 either?


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## Ham Slicer (30 Jul 2008)

Complainer said:


> Equally strange how none of this intimidation was caught on camera by RTE or TV3 either?




I believe most of the footage that was shown on the news was tree hugger footage not from RTE or TV3.  Was Charlie Bird not on the floor at that stage or was that another time?, 

He would have no reason to make such a story up when he knows my attitude to such matters.


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## Complainer (31 Jul 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> I believe most of the footage that was shown on the news was tree hugger footage not from RTE or TV3.  Was Charlie Bird not on the floor at that stage or was that another time?,
> 
> He would have no reason to make such a story up when he knows my attitude to such matters.


I'm pretty sure the Charlie incident was at the Love Ulster parade/riot, not the Reclaim the Streets one. I'm pretty sure that I saw broadcast-quality footage of the Reclaim the Streets riot on RTE, so I assume that RTE or other professional crews were involved. It wouldn't surprise me that there was some degree of intimidation of Gardai, but I wouldn't believe any one-sided claims of widespread intimidation that was not filmed or otherwise reported in the media. And regardless, I'd expect the Gardai to respond professionally to such intimidation.


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## DavyJones (31 Jul 2008)

When they suggested the love Ulster parade, did anybody tell them it was a bad idea?

I found it funny when two comics went up to Belfast and had a love Munster parade much to the bemusement of the Belfast residents.


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## sparkeee (1 Aug 2008)

these guys should work in Mullingar,they could do with some heavies down there.


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## dewdrop (1 Aug 2008)

What about the brave guy who threw a punch at a small sized ban garda after the tipp clare match under 21


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## Simeon (1 Aug 2008)

You gotta be joking. Too much like hard work. Try giving these swarty boys a rap of a baton and see what happens.


sparkeee said:


> these guys should work in Mullingar,they could do with some heavies down there.


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## Ham Slicer (1 Aug 2008)

Complainer said:


> And regardless, I'd expect the Gardai to respond professionally to such intimidation.



I don't think a smack of a batton across the back of the head 10 or 15 times would do these guys any harm.

What would you expect if you tried to overturn a Garda car and shouted abuse in their face.  "Come a long now Sir, there's no need for that carry on"


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## Complainer (1 Aug 2008)

Just to be clear, do you still reckon that there was widespread intimidation of the Gardai which wasn't reported by press or broadcast media?



Ham Slicer said:


> I don't think a smack of a batton across the back of the head 10 or 15 times would do these guys any harm.


I guess we have a different definition of 'harm'. In my book, harm would include death and lifelong disablity and decreased respect for the Gardai, but I guess you have a different book.



Ham Slicer said:


> What would you expect if you tried to overturn a Garda car and shouted abuse in their face.  "Come a long now Sir, there's no need for that carry on"


I outlined what I'd expect in my earlier post, i.e. a professional response. The Gardai should use minimum force to contain the situation, and let the court system decide the punishment.


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## Sunny (1 Aug 2008)

Complainer said:


> The Gardai should use minimum force to contain the situation, and let the court system decide the punishment.


 
And 99 times out of 100, they do just that. There are always going to be unwelcome incidents. Show me a police force where these things don't happen. When they do they should be punished but there are alot of guards out there who risk their safety and even lives trying to their do their jobs under very difficult circumstances and don't deserve some of the comments made by some people here. (Not talking about you).


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## Ham Slicer (1 Aug 2008)

Complainer said:


> Just to be clear, do you still reckon that there was widespread intimidation of the Gardai which wasn't reported by press or broadcast media?
> 
> 
> I guess we have a different definition of 'harm'. In my book, harm would include death and lifelong disablity and decreased respect for the Gardai, but I guess you have a different book.
> ...



Who mentioned "widespread intimidation"?  I was just referring to 2 incidents.  

Your definition of harm is interesting.  I obvioulsy don't mean death or disability but the issue of decreased respect for the Gardai, you are having a laugh.  Some piece of dirt that tries to overturn a car has no respect for the Gardai in the first place.  

It would increase my respect for the Gardia if I witnessed this piece of dirt getting what he deserved.


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## Complainer (1 Aug 2008)

Ham Slicer said:


> Who mentioned "widespread intimidation"?  I was just referring to 2 incidents.



You referred to a 'high level of intimidation' in this earlier post.




Ham Slicer said:


> Your definition of harm is interesting. I obvioulsy don't mean death or disability but the issue of decreased respect for the Gardai, you are having a laugh. Some piece of dirt that tries to overturn a car has no respect for the Gardai in the first place.



How do you plan to give 'a smack of a batton (sic) across the back of the head 10 or 15 times' without risking death or disability? A single blow is enough to kill, depending on the circumstances.

The perpetrator may well have no respect for the Gardai. You can be damn sure he (and his mates and his family) will have less respect from the Gardai if they turn into the kind of uniformed thugs you propose.



Ham Slicer said:


> It would increase my respect for the Gardia if I witnessed this piece of dirt getting what he deserved.


The public reaction to various Garda scandals, particularly Donegal would suggest that most people expect the Gardai to lead by example in upholding the rule of law.


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## sam h (1 Aug 2008)

Some of the posts on this thread have shocked me.  

The 2 key instances referred to in this post, have been about someone *already in custody, being assaulted*.  I'm amazed at the number of people who are condoning the behavior.

The Gardai are trained to deal with criminals.  The should be using reasonable force to arrest the person & once in handcuff's, there should be no reason to be giving dig's or kick's once the person is detained. 

In fact, they risk having the conviction thrown out & the "scumbag" being back on the streets if they use excessive force / assault.

I fully concur that the Gardai do have to deal with aggressive individuals, but is that not part of the job ?


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## Bronte (1 Aug 2008)

There is a lovely photo in the independant today of Garda Gerry McCabe's widow with her son who has graduated from Templemore.  I admire those people who join the guards and handle the criminals for the rest of us.  Kicking someone in handcuffs is clearly wrong but if we knew what the young man had done crimewise or what had just passed before in the paddywagon we might have a different viewpoint.  Maybe the garda was stressed out and he did the wrong thing.


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