# Brian Cowan and Wage Restraint



## Sunny (17 Jul 2007)

I am well aware of the importance of the need for wage restraint and the need to stay competitive but for some reason it really bugs me when I hear politicians talk about the need for it. We have a guy in the job as Tainaiste whose salary has increased from €95,000 in 1997 to €228,000 in 2007 for the same job talking about the dangers of wage inflation.


----------



## Purple (17 Jul 2007)

Plenty of public (and private) sector pay rates have gone up by the same proportion. The rates for top-level directors of major corporations (which the minister in question can quite reasonably be compared to) have increased by far more.
The message is no less important, if five years too late. Gate, closing, and bolted horse all spring to mind. We had our chance and we have blown it. The tears and gnashing of teeth come next


----------



## GeneralZod (17 Jul 2007)

€95k to €228k in ten years is a compound annual rate of 9.15%.

Not too many workers in the private sector outside the remuneration committee classes have achieved that.

What they share in common is the ability to set their own salaries.


----------



## Purple (17 Jul 2007)

GeneralZod said:


> €95k to €228k in ten years is a compound annual rate of 9.15%.
> 
> Not too many workers in the private sector outside the remuneration committee classes have achieved that.



Not too many workers in the private sector control a multi-billion euro budget either.


----------



## dodo (17 Jul 2007)

I am a strong beliver that the people who run this Country should be on top dollar, if you want to attract top performer.s you must pay the money, any MD of a top company in Ireland ie Microsoft,Dell,HP, are on 200K plus without question so I think it is only fair the people who run a first world Country should be on top poke.


----------



## Purple (17 Jul 2007)

dodo said:


> I am a strong beliver that the people who run this Country should be on top dollar, if you want to attract top performer.s you must pay the money, any MD of a top company in Ireland ie Microsoft,Dell,HP, are on 200K plus without question so I think it is only fair the people who run a first world Country should be on top poke.



I  agree. Peanuts and Monkeys etc


----------



## GeneralZod (17 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> Not too many workers in the private sector control a multi-billion euro budget either.



They may well justify it in some cases, and clearly don't in others.

The problem with Brian Cowan calling for wage restraint is that he's open to the charge of hypocrisy. 

228k to run the finances of a small country probably isn't too much, judging his job/salary purely on the basis of responsibilities.


----------



## ClubMan (17 Jul 2007)

dodo said:


> I am a strong beliver that the people who run this Country should be on top dollar, if you want to attract top performer.s you must pay the money, any MD of a top company in Ireland ie Microsoft,Dell,HP, are on 200K plus without question so I think it is only fair the people who run a first world Country should be on top poke.


Not exactly a meaningful comparison since cabinet ministers are elected and then appointed rather than selected through a head hunting or interview/selection process.


----------



## Bazoo (17 Jul 2007)

I assume his annual expenses for personal driver, accommodation while staying in Dublin etc etc is not included in this 228k figure?


----------



## Gabriel (17 Jul 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Not exactly a meaningful comparison since cabinet ministers are elected and then appointed rather than selected through a head hunting or interview/selection process.



Not all senior management on top whack go through the same interview processes as your average Joe. A lot get there by who they know etc...so are in essence appointed to their positions. I personally know of plenty of instances of this happening...it's fairly common place.

So it may not be a direct comparison but the principal is the same. 

Cowans wage is fair given his role. As are his comments on staying competitive. We have already lost a great deal of business to cheaper eastern countries in various sectors (IT etc...). It's important that while also focusing more on knowledge based industries we try to remain as competive as possible from a wage perspective.


----------



## Sunny (17 Jul 2007)

Gabriel said:


> Cowans wage is fair given his role. As are his comments on staying competitive. We have already lost a great deal of business to cheaper eastern countries in various sectors (IT etc...). It's important that while also focusing more on knowledge based industries we try to remain as competive as possible from a wage perspective.


 
May be so but are we saying that our politicians work harder or are better than most of their counterparts in Europe if Brian Cowan is talking about Irelands competiveness vis a vis other countries. Will have to confirm the figures but I reckon Brian Cowans salary is close to if not greater than Gordon Brown is earning as Prime Minister of the UK. Certainly our TD's are better paid than MP's. Politicians are just lucky we can't move their jobs to Eastern Europe!!!! 

To be honest, I don't argue against paying politicians top money. I guess it just reminds in a way about the lecture from Mr Haughey about tightening the belts while he was off shopping in Paris for his shirts.


----------



## shanegl (17 Jul 2007)

I can see the arguments that politicians might make for the pay rises over the last ten years (ie Celtic Tiger), but I'll be interested to see if they moderate their wage growth in the future in line with their plan for national wage agreements to do likewise.


----------



## rabbit (17 Jul 2007)

Sunny said:


> I am well aware of the importance of the need for wage restraint and the need to stay competitive but for some reason it really bugs me when I hear politicians talk about the need for it. We have a guy in the job as Tainaiste whose salary has increased from €95,000 in 1997 to €228,000 in 2007 for the same job talking about the dangers of wage inflation.


 

hear hear.  Not to mention the perks and pensions and long summer holidays they have.   Many of the equivalent politicians in countries 10 or 15 times the size of Ireland are not paid as much.


----------



## joe sod (18 Jul 2007)

At the lower end of the pay scale, manual , warehouse, distribution, wages are still fairly competitive and also in high tech, this is because wages have been held down by immigration and competition. The problem in ireland is in the middle and upper sections and in the public sector. This is where the wage restraint is required and this is where government action is needed. It is interesting to note that even though ireland is percieved as a high wage economy 66% of the workforce earns less than the average industrial wage. The average industrial wage is used as a method of benchmarking public sector pay yet the majority of the irish workforce earn less than it.


----------



## ubiquitous (18 Jul 2007)

Sunny said:


> We have a guy in the job as Tainaiste whose salary has increased from €95,000 in 1997 to €228,000 in 2007 for the same job talking about the dangers of wage inflation.



You would swear from reading this that Cowen has been Tanaiste since 1997. He was only appointed to the post last month!




Yorky said:


> Comparing Brian Cowen to 'heads of industry' is fatuous due to the fact that if they get it wrong their 'heads will roll'. If Brian Cowen gets it wrong what will happen to him??


Well, Michael McDowell's head rolled...


----------



## Sunny (18 Jul 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> You would swear from reading this that Cowen has been Tanaiste since 1997. He was only appointed to the post last month!


 
But the role hasn't changed in 10 years. What is he doing now that the Tanaiste in 1997 wasn't??


----------



## Purple (18 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> Comparing Brian Cowen to 'heads of industry' is fatuous due to the fact that if they get it wrong their 'heads will roll'. If Brian Cowen gets it wrong what will happen to him?? Like all politicians he is totally cosseted from any personal financial risk whatsoever and can basically do what he likes anyway as 'getting it wrong' is quite subjective..


 So if he looses his seat he will keep getting paid? Wow, I didn't know that!


Yorky said:


> The problem with modern politics is it attracts career politicians who are often totally inept and wouldn't last five minutes in the 'real world'. Politics is risk free due to the pension structure and the only 'ruin' they face is pride related.


 Spoken like someone who knows bugger all about the day-to-day reality of politics.
Ask anyone who knows a politician well, especially a front bench one or a minister, and see if they think their politician friend/ relation works hard. It's a 7-day a week job where most evenings are taken up as well as their days. 
I wouldn't do it for twice the money.


----------



## Sunny (18 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> So if he looses his seat he will keep getting paid? Wow, I didn't know that!
> Spoken like someone who knows bugger all about the day-to-day reality of politics.
> Ask anyone who knows a politician well, especially a front bench one or a minister, and see if they think their politician friend/ relation works hard. It's a 7-day a week job where most evenings are taken up as well as their days.
> I wouldn't do it for twice the money.


 
I agree with you that it is not an easy job and I didn't start this thread to abuse politicians. I just thought it is ironic that we have a politician lecturing on wage restraint and competiveness when, if we compare his role with his European counterparts, we find he and other politicians are probably the best paid in Europe. Didn't Bertie get about 5 wage increases in a year a couple of years back??


----------



## Gabriel (18 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> I wouldn't do it for twice the money.



Absolutely...as cynical as I am about Irish politics these people do not have an envious job. Besides the critical eye they are kept under 24-7 by the media it's also a very tough job. This is why politics finds it so hard to recruit top people!

And I wouldn't do it for all the money in Carlow!!!!


----------



## Sherman (18 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> From memory the Irish Tanaiste gets more than the US Foreign Secretary and Taoiseach more than the British PM!!


 
The problem with the British and American systems is that professional politics is effectively reserved for those who are wealthy enough to afford to forego other forms of employment where their talents, workrate etc. would earn them far more.

The US President's salary is nothing but a token for instance - then again, how does one measure how much money would be needed to compensate in purely financial terms for being the most powerful person in the world? The U.S. President's salary is today at it's lowest inflation-adjusted rate since the Presidency began - see here.

In the U.S., the vast majority of presidents have been independently wealthy. The situation in Britain is slightly different, in that one can enter office being of 'average' means. However, British PM's can console themselves with the fact that historically, their predecessors have absolutely creamed it with directorships etc. from the City once they leave office.

In Ireland until recently anyway we had nothing comparable to the City to lavish directorships on retired senior politicians so in fairness they need a salary comparable with their talents and workrate.

I for one welcome the fact that Irish politicians are relatively well paid, so that our political class is not comprised entirely of independently wealthy individuals.


----------



## Purple (18 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> I work very hard too but *don't* get an astronomical salary funded by the taxpayer with payrises regardless of performance, only scrutinised every five years and then if I get 'the sack' have a full pension to live off. Politics is a classic example of 'nice work if you can get it'.


 I work hard as well while work takes up 1-2 night a week on top of a 50 hour week I don't have to go to meetings/funerals/ parties/ functions/ events 6-7 nights a week. 
I can go out in public without having people I don’t know abuse me/ ask me for help with problems that have nothing to do with my job or watch my behaviour in case I am caught on camera/ ear-shot telling a non-PC joke/ having a drink. When my children are teenagers I will not have to worry about loosing my job if one of them gets drunk/ is arrested. In short my private life is private. What price can be put on that?    

The phenomenon of government s lasting a full term is a recent one so politicians are usually scrutinised more often than every five years. 
The pension for a single term TD or minister is bugger all.


----------



## Gabriel (18 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> I work very hard too but *don't* get an astronomical salary funded by the taxpayer with payrises regardless of performance, only scrutinised every five years and then if I get 'the sack' have a full pension to live off. Politics is a classic example of 'nice work if you can get it'.



Ah c'mon 

The world is not equal...and certainly not the working world! There's plenty of Joe Soaps out there who work 'ard down coalmine every day and have little to show for it!!! Being a director in some big fancy company is also nice work if you can get it...but I fail to see the point in comparing the two?

Would you rather if they got paid very average salaries? We'd have monkeys running the country if the pay wasn't good.

Ok...hang on...there may be a problem with my argument somewhere!!


----------



## Purple (18 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> Ever listen and/or look at Willie O'Dea / Charlie McCreevey / Mary Harney??


 Yes, which is why I have formed the views that I have. What have their looks got to do with it?



Yorky said:


> Let's face it government ministers don't have to be good at anything apart from evading questions. The civil servants do all of the work and brief the relevant minister and then he/she presents it to the public and gets all of the credit!


 That’s right, that’s how it works. 



Yorky said:


> I don't care what anyone says, the money/security/perks/lack of accountability has to be the closest to a Utopian job one can get.


 Indeed. Don’t let reality colour your views.


----------



## ashambles (18 Jul 2007)

While it's fine to argue about salaries which are high compared to our European neighbours I'm not sure if naming TDs here is fair, many of those mentioned have had many many signifigant accomplishments, stretching back decades in some cases, and likely as not would be well regarded within the business sector. 

I can remember being dismissive of politians - but having met a couple people who've occasionally dealt with the senior ministers, it seems that there's some genuinely impressive people holding some of these offices.


----------



## RainyDay (18 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> I don't care what anyone says, the money/security/perks/lack of accountability has to be the closest to a Utopian job one can get.


So presumably you'll be joining up with your favourite party next week and getting your Minister's seat at the next election - right? Why wouldn't you go for utopia?


----------



## Purple (19 Jul 2007)

I envy you your simple world view.


----------



## Green (19 Jul 2007)

An enjoyable thread. The truth is that a large number of TD and Minister's have generous expenses that is some cases add to their salary up to, in some small cases, an additional 100%. Also, dont forget little perks like extra mortgage relief for houses bought in Dublin by rural TD's. Both TD's and Minister's are very well paid by any European or International standards. The Taoseach is paid above the PM's of the Netherlands and Poland, both with significantly higher populations. While it could be argued that Ministers face scutiny every 5 years, the reality is that they are judged on local issues rather than on the Ministerial portfolio that they held, e.g. the last Programme for Govt informed that a metro would be in place to the airport by 2007...I don't recall the Min. for Transport not getting reelected..


----------



## Purple (19 Jul 2007)

Expenses are expenses. If your company sends you to India ten times a year should the costs incurred be counted as income?


----------



## Sunny (19 Jul 2007)

I don't know if politicians are overpaid or not. I was talking about the irony of them telling the country about the importance of wage restraint when their own record with regard to their own pay and overseeing a process like benchmarking proves that they don't really practice what they preach. Example of what I am talking about:

The Irish Times reported last July that politicians received their fourth pay rise in a year at the beginning of June, bringing the basic salary of a TD to €96,560 before special allowances and expenses are taken into account. 

For the Taoiseach and his Ministers, it was the sixth pay rise over the past 12 months. Mr Ahern's salary is now €258,730 a year, including his TD's salary, while the Tánaiste earns €222,256 and other members of the Cabinet get €204,020.

Six pay rises in 12 months is not wage restraint


----------



## Purple (19 Jul 2007)

Well said, I agree with your core point.


----------



## Bazoo (19 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> Expenses are expenses. If your company sends you to India ten times a year should the costs incurred be counted as income?



How is that relevant?

Why does he need a personal driver in a brand new Mercedes to drive him the short distance to work?


----------



## Purple (19 Jul 2007)

Bazoo said:


> How is that relevant?


 Because many people talk as if they are income. They are not and to say so is at least disingenuous



Bazoo said:


> Why does he need a personal driver in a brand new Mercedes to drive him the short distance to work?


 That comment is not worthy of an answer.


----------



## Bazoo (19 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> Because many people talk as if they are income. They are not and to say so is at least disingenuous
> 
> *  That comment is not worthy of an answer*.



Why?

It was a genuine question.


----------



## Purple (19 Jul 2007)

Bazoo said:


> Why?
> 
> It was a genuine question.


If they are going to or from a meeting or on a long journey they will spend their time on the phone and/or talking to the other people in the car. The may also be reading papers etc. Think of a minister as the head or a large company from a workload point of view. There are also security issues and the issue of the perception that we project to other countries. 
To suggest that they should drive themselves to work etc shows a total lack of appreciation of the role they have and the work they do. It never ceases to amaze me how small minded Irish people can be. They are not everyday Joe-soaps, they are the leaders of our country and the state car is also a sign of respect for the office they hold.
I remember ten or fifteen years ago there was a load of noise from a bunch of idiots when the government upgraded the government jet.


----------



## Bazoo (19 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> If they are going to or from a meeting or on a long journey they will spend their time on the phone and/or talking to the other people in the car. The may also be reading papers etc. Think of a minister as the head or a large company from a workload point of view. There are also security issues and the issue of the perception that we project to other countries.
> * To suggest that they should drive themselves to work etc *shows a total lack of appreciation of the role they have and the work they do. It never ceases to amaze me how small minded Irish people can be. They are not everyday Joe-soaps, they are the leaders of our country and the state car is also a sign of respect for the office they hold.
> I remember ten or fifteen years ago there was a load of noise from a bunch of idiots when the government upgraded the government jet.



That was not my suggestion at all and your implication that I am small-minded is patronising in the extreme. I am fully aware that they are not everyday Joe Soaps. 

Restraint is probably best demonstrated by example. Seeing a brand spanking new top of the range Mercedes with chauffer ferrying the Minister to work is not a good example. Perhaps restraint could be shown if the car wasn't jettisoned in favour of a new model each year.


----------



## z107 (19 Jul 2007)

> They are not everyday Joe-soaps, they are the leaders of our country and the state car is also a sign of respect for the office they hold.



They are Joe-soaps. People, like you and me. (Unless we were suddenly annexed by North Korea)

Out of interest, how are politicians wages determined?


----------



## RainyDay (19 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> Because I would be too honest and direct which does not make a good politician. Just look at the behaviour of the politicians, including the highest political office, in the tribunals: an absolute disgrace; they have gone to extraordinary lengths to avoid telling the truth.


Let's just explore this a little. Are you seriously suggesting that all 166 TDs are corrupt? And if so, what does this say about the electorate that keep choosing corrupt TDs?


----------



## shnaek (20 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> No but I have yet to hear one answer questions directly and honestly and admit to mistakes made.



You forget that our TD's are our representatives. We don't vote for people who make mistakes, or ones who answer questions directly. We vote for nice TD's, like the fella down the street, and yer one who cares about such-and-such, and the guy who gave us a football pitch etc. Look at the candidates who went for election in your area. Did the straight talking ones get in? Or the ones who talked about mistakes made?

We can't really blame the politicians for being elected.


----------



## RainyDay (20 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> No but I have yet to hear one answer questions directly and honestly and admit to mistakes made.


OK then, so back to my first question. If you accept there are honest TDs out there, and you are certain it is such a cushy number, why don't you become a TD?


----------



## Jaid79 (21 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> This type of voter doesn't deserve the right to vote.


 
After reading through this thread, Yorky I find you views leaning toward the extreme. 

Everybody should have a right to vote, even if you dont agree with their choices. We live in a democratic country and hopfully it will remain that way.



> I'm not diplomatic enough to be one and I would be embarrassed to admit being one.


 
You would not stand a chance of been elected. This would not be because of directness or lack of dipomatic skills, it would be due to lack of suppport for extremist views.


----------



## RainyDay (21 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> Because I'm not diplomatic enough to be one and I would be embarrassed to admit being one.



Let me let you in on a little secret. The real reason that you're not a TD is because a) you really, really don't want the lifestyle involved and b) you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of making the grade.

Are you prepared to €30k-€100+ of your own money into a campaign with no guarantee of success? Are you prepared to say goodbye to your family for about 18 months, as you'll be out 5 nights a week canvassing and/or at residents meetings? Are you prepared to face 50,000 people for a job interview for your job every 5 years? Are you prepared to your career dependent on a huge number of isssues that are completely outside your control? Are you prepared to have builders knocking on your door at 11pm at night to discuss upcoming planning applications? Are you prepared to have every whinger/crank/deadbeat in the constituency hammering on your door asking what you are going to do for them? Are you prepared to work your ass off to sort out a particular issue, and then get told 'ah sure politicians are all the same' a month later.

Let me assure that it is a very unpleasant lifestyle. Anecdotal evidence would suggest a fairly high seperation/divorce rate for politicians.

Yes, if you get to the top of the pile, you will do well financially. But if you make it as a successful solicitor/barrister/medical consultant/businessman, you'd probably do a lot better, with a lot less risk.


----------



## Jaid79 (21 Jul 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Let me let you in on a little secret. The real reason that you're not a TD is because a) you really, really don't want the lifestyle involved and b) you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of making the grade.
> 
> Are you prepared to €30k-€100+ of your own money into a campaign with no guarantee of success? Are you prepared to say goodbye to your family for about 18 months, as you'll be out 5 nights a week canvassing and/or at residents meetings? Are you prepared to face 50,000 people for a job interview for your job every 5 years? Are you prepared to your career dependent on a huge number of isssues that are completely outside your control? Are you prepared to have builders knocking on your door at 11pm at night to discuss upcoming planning applications? Are you prepared to have every whinger/crank/deadbeat in the constituency hammering on your door asking what you are going to do for them? Are you prepared to work your ass off to sort out a particular issue, and then get told 'ah sure politicians are all the same' a month later.
> 
> ...


 

Hear Hear !!!


----------



## ang1170 (21 Jul 2007)

Gabriel said:


> Cowans wage is fair given his role. As are his comments on staying competitive. We have already lost a great deal of business to cheaper eastern countries in various sectors (IT etc...). It's important that while also focusing more on knowledge based industries we try to remain as competive as possible from a wage perspective.


 
Hey, just a thought: why don't we outsource politicians to a cheaper location? India? China? I'd say they'd probably do as good a job.

Might be a few cultural issues to smooth over, but it'd be a world first. 

We'd be ahead of everyone else: just like electronic voting!


----------



## Jaid79 (22 Jul 2007)

ang1170 said:


> Hey, just a thought: why don't we outsource politicians to a cheaper location? India? China? I'd say they'd probably do as good a job.
> 
> Might be a few cultural issues to smooth over, but it'd be a world first.
> 
> We'd be ahead of everyone else: just like electronic voting!


 
Have you ever had to deal with peolple in an India call centre? Not easy is it?


----------



## ang1170 (22 Jul 2007)

Jaid79 said:


> Have you ever had to deal with peolple in an India call centre? Not easy is it?


 
That's what I meant about a few cultural issues that might have to be smoothed over......


----------



## Purple (23 Jul 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Let me let you in on a little secret. The real reason that you're not a TD is because a) you really, really don't want the lifestyle involved and b) you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of making the grade.
> 
> Are you prepared to €30k-€100+ of your own money into a campaign with no guarantee of success? Are you prepared to say goodbye to your family for about 18 months, as you'll be out 5 nights a week canvassing and/or at residents meetings? Are you prepared to face 50,000 people for a job interview for your job every 5 years? Are you prepared to your career dependent on a huge number of isssues that are completely outside your control? Are you prepared to have builders knocking on your door at 11pm at night to discuss upcoming planning applications? Are you prepared to have every whinger/crank/deadbeat in the constituency hammering on your door asking what you are going to do for them? Are you prepared to work your ass off to sort out a particular issue, and then get told 'ah sure politicians are all the same' a month later.
> 
> ...



Excellent post RainyDay, very well said.


----------



## jmayo (23 Jul 2007)

Jeeze after those posts by Purple and Rainyday I feel like getting my violin out for those poor put upon politicans.  
Lets have a big ahhhh for all our poor politicans and their lives of servitude.
It reminds me of poor Padraig and his rant on the Late Late about how difficult it was to keep three houses goping on his salary? 

I have to ask if it was such a hard life, why then do the offspring of politicans follow in their grandparents/parents' footsteps?   
Are they so community spirited or has it something to do with the power and the financial rewards?

As pointed out by other posters, they enjoy perks of office, huge expenses and large pensions, especially if they have served as ministers.
In fact the politicans from my county have claimed some of the highest expenses over the years.  I never knew it was so expensive to drive from Dublin to Mayo.  Next time I bill my employers for travel expenses I will have to use the same formulas in the calculations.  I wonder how far I will get with the accounts department  

Directors and high ranking managers in large private sector businesses can get large salaries.  In certain cases they definitely aren't worth it either, but they usually get fired for their screw ups.  
Politicans in Ireland on the other hand never get fired, they get moved to another department e.g Martin Cullen.  They only lose seats becasue of local issues not because they screwed up and wasted millions of tax payers money.

How politicians in Ireland, which in relative terms is a small country, with a small economy, can justify salaries greater than those of larger stronger economies is baffling.  Again why are we so special?


----------



## RainyDay (23 Jul 2007)

jmayo said:


> Politicans in Ireland on the other hand never get fired, they get moved to another department e.g Martin Cullen.


This clearly demonstrates  how far from reality your post is. Give Micky McDowell a call and tell him policiticians never get fired. Ask him to pass on the word to Tom Parlon. Get Tom Parlon to email Nora Owens with the news. They can all get together on a conference call and let Dick Spring know that he is still Tanaiste.


----------



## Purple (24 Jul 2007)

Yorky said:


> I suspect Rainy Day and Purple may actually be politicians or perhaps are due before a tribunal shortly...


 Wouldn't do the job for twice the money.


----------



## Sunny (24 Jul 2007)

RainyDay said:


> This clearly demonstrates how far from reality your post is. Give Micky McDowell a call and tell him policiticians never get fired. Ask him to pass on the word to Tom Parlon. Get Tom Parlon to email Nora Owens with the news. They can all get together on a conference call and let Dick Spring know that he is still Tanaiste.


 
Thats not what the poster was saying. He was pointing out that politicians fail to get re-elcected due to local circumstances but who was the last minister of senior civil servant for that matter to get sacked for gross incompetence or wasting millions of Eur on a national level. Nursing home charges, electronic voting, PARS system are examples. Ministers should be accountable to the whole country and not just their local constituancy like a CEO is accountable to all its shareholders but thats not the way it works. Not unique to Ireland I know but there has to be more accountability at senior ministerial and civil service level if they are going to be paid the wages that they get


----------



## Purple (24 Jul 2007)

What more accountability is there than a democratic election? Most people don't vote on national issues so how do you expect us to end up with politicians that act on national issues? There is a saying that we get the politicians we deserve, despite their many shortcomings I think that on balance we get better than we deserve.

Most people form their opinions on a government on headlines and personalities. There are many politicians that I like and admire that I would not vote for because I don't agree with their policies or like the policies of another party better. Most of the people I know are of the "sure their all the same, I vote for the guy who is best for the area" mind-set. I believe that this is the common view in Ireland and while it is the common view wasting tens of millions on a national project will always be trumped by spending thousands on a local project.
If we as a nation were serious about our democracy, a fragile and precious form of government that is still a blip in history, then we would read the manifestos of the parties, look at and learn about their front benches which will strive to implement those policies, weigh up policies and the ability to follow through, and vote accordingly.


----------



## jmayo (24 Jul 2007)

RainyDay said:


> This clearly demonstrates how far from reality your post is. Give Micky McDowell a call and tell him policiticians never get fired. Ask him to pass on the word to Tom Parlon. Get Tom Parlon to email Nora Owens with the news. They can all get together on a conference call and let Dick Spring know that he is still Tanaiste.


 
Just because you disagree with my post you do not need to be condescending about it. 
Did I say that they never lose their seats ? No.
I said they never get fired for complete incompetence.
Has anybodys ass been kicked for PPARS, either at ministerial level or civil servant level ? 
That project would have been axed at a much earlier stage if it was been undertaken within a private sector organisation. Also some people would have gotten their asses kicked or at least their career prospects would be seriously halted in limbo.
But in the public service nothing happens, sure the fuss will die down in a few months and it's only the taxpayers money anyway. 

Did Michael McDowell lose his seat because he was inadequate as minister or was it becuase there was a feeling among the elctorate that his party were to blame for government problems or was it just to do with the fact that lots of people just do not like the guy?
Also Parlon suffered like other PD TDs, I don't think the people of Laois/Offlay sat down and thought he had done a bad job with the OPW?
Nora Owen had not been a minister for a number of years when she lost her seat. She was also victim to the move away from FG that resulted in lots of FG sitting TDs losing their seats.
BTW Dick Spring resigned from the Dail, he did not seek re-election, to best of my knowledge.



Sunny said:


> Thats not what the poster was saying. He was pointing out that politicians fail to get re-elcected due to local circumstances but who was the last minister of senior civil servant for that matter to get sacked for gross incompetence or wasting millions of Eur on a national level. Nursing home charges, electronic voting, PARS system are examples. Ministers should be accountable to the whole country and not just their local constituancy like a CEO is accountable to all its shareholders but thats not the way it works. Not unique to Ireland I know but there has to be more accountability at senior ministerial and civil service level if they are going to be paid the wages that they get


 
Thank you Sunny, at least you can follow my point without claiming I inhabit a parallel universe. Actually maybe I do inhabit a parallel universe where it would be considered normal for our politicans, and as Sunny pointed out civil servants, to get fired when their incompetence costs the shareholders (i.e. the taxpayers) millions of euros.
So Martin Cullen presides over numersous cock ups and he is just moved to another department. 
Why? 
The only reasons can be he either has some major influence over the taoiseach or else it is political expedient to have a minister in that area of the country.
I think it may be a combination of both.

It is interesting to look at the breakdown of TDs, ministers and their actual qualifications. How many TDs are teachers, solicitors, baristers, academics and public servants? These are not exactly the type of people you would usually find running successful busisnesses.
How many successful businessmen have actually entered the Dail?
One of the few I can think of is Albert Reynolds. 
Of course somebody may come on here and name a few.

If politicans, especially ministers, and civil servants, expect to earn salaries equivalent to people in the private sector then they should be judged by the same yardstick and suffer the same consequences. 
This leads us nicely onto the whole benchmarking ficasco.


----------



## Purple (24 Jul 2007)

jmayo said:


> It is interesting to look at the breakdown of TDs, ministers and their actual qualifications. How many TDs are teachers, solicitors, baristers, academics and public servants? These are not exactly the type of people you would usually find running successful busisnesses.
> How many successful businessmen have actually entered the Dail?
> One of the few I can think of is Albert Reynolds.
> Of course somebody may come on here and name a few.


If is was such a cushy job then everyone would be trying to get in. Teachers make up the single biggest group in the Dail. The thing they have in common with solicitors, barristers, academics and public servants is that they can re-enter their old trade/profession quite easily if and when they loose their seat. In the case of a teacher of public servant re-entry is seamless.
I am in business. If I wanted to become a TD I would have to quit my job (and the business and my employees would suffer the consequences) to run for office as there is no way I would have the time to do both. If I was elected and lost my seat after one term I would have to start again from scratch. I would face the prospect of loosing my home as I could not pay the mortgage. Why on earth would I take that risk for a thankless job where most of the public (like you) think I am corrupt and incompetent, just like the rest of them?
That's why there are so few people from a business background in government. 
I am slow to be critical of people who take tht sort of risk, who do a job I would not do.


----------



## jmayo (24 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> If is was such a cushy job then everyone would be trying to get in. Teachers make up the single biggest group in the Dail. The thing they have in common with solicitors, barristers, academics and public servants is that they can re-enter their old trade/profession quite easily if and when they loose their seat. In the case of a teacher of public servant re-entry is seamless.
> I am in business. If I wanted to become a TD I would have to quit my job (and the business and my employees would suffer the consequences) to run for office as there is no way I would have the time to do both. If I was elected and lost my seat after one term I would have to start again from scratch. I would face the prospect of loosing my home as I could not pay the mortgage. Why on earth would I take that risk for a thankless job where most of the public (like you) think I am corrupt and incompetent, just like the rest of them?
> That's why there are so few people from a business background in government.
> I am slow to be critical of people who take tht sort of risk, who do a job I would not do.


 
Excuse me, did I say they were corrupt?
I said that there are many that are incompetent which is a statement that a lot of people on these forums would agree with.
By saying they are incomptetent, that they are depriving some village of their disignated eejit, is not saying they are corrupt?
So please do not try and attribute statements to me that are incorrect.

Yes, there are corrupt politicans as proven by tribunals and courts but my gripe here is that they are a lot of bloody incompetents who in normal life would get their asses kicked for the cr** way they have performed while in ministerial office.
Are you telling me that it is ok to be a minister in a department that blows, yes blows, 150 odd million of taxpayers money and the minister sails meerily on in their carreer?
Is it ok to purchase an inadequately speced/tested system that is used once, having cost 40 odd million, is continually costing the taxpayers storage costs and will probably never be used again?

Of course to our current government 150 million is only small potatoes, but all those 150 million small potatoes add up to a hell of a lot of chips at the end of the day.  
And who pays for it in the end? 
The people do, with inferior public services, with lower standards healthcare and with lower standards for our childrens' education, etc. 

In most democratic countries, that would be a firing offence.
I believe in all business that would be a firing offence.  In some instances there could even be fraud investigations to ascertain how so much money could be wasted and who benefitted.

Sadly the problem with democracy is that if we continue to elect muppets that is what we will get.  

Why do I feel you are a member of a political party, me thinks thou protests too much ?


----------



## Green (24 Jul 2007)

The sad reality is that the political system ain't gona change anytime soon. 

In fact its getting worse imho, for example, one of the rationales for paying County Councillors was that they would do the small local stuff and leave TD's to scrutunise legislation (and policy) - yes they are supposed to do that! Also, all 166 TD's were given researchers to assist with this process. Has any one seen any change? I haven't seen any...Indeed, an outgoing TD, Jim Glennon remarked in an interview in the Sindo (I think) how everyone (councillor/TD/senator) even in the same party in an area was chasing the same local issue! And you had to be seen to do it...


----------



## Purple (24 Jul 2007)

jmayo said:


> Excuse me, did I say they were corrupt?
> I said that there are many that are incompetent which is a statement that a lot of people on these forums would agree with.
> By saying they are incompetent, that they are depriving some village of their disignated eejit, is not saying they are corrupt?
> So please do not try and attribute statements to me that are incorrect.


 Apologies, so why would I (or anyone else) want to be regarded as an eejit?



jmayo said:


> Yes, there are corrupt politicans as proven by tribunals and courts but my gripe here is that they are a lot of bloody incompetents who in normal life would get their asses kicked for the cr** way they have performed while in ministerial office.
> Are you telling me that it is ok to be a minister in a department that blows, yes blows, 150 odd million of taxpayers money and the minister sails meerily on in their carreer?
> Is it ok to purchase an inadequately speced/tested system that is used once, having cost 40 odd million, is continually costing the taxpayers storage costs and will probably never be used again?


 No, I’m not telling you that any of that waste is ok. Large companies and public bodies all over the world are guilty of massive waste. Ford blew hundreds of millions on a computer system that didn’t work and their directors were noy fired. The NHS in the UK did the same. 



jmayo said:


> Of course to our current government 150 million is only small potatoes, but all those 150 million small potatoes add up to a hell of a lot of chips at the end of the day.
> And who pays for it in the end?
> The people do, with inferior public services, with lower standards healthcare and with lower standards for our childrens' education, etc.


 I agree that the public pays but I don’t accept that our healthcare or education is of a low standard. 



jmayo said:


> In most democratic countries, that would be a firing offence.


 I disagree. 


jmayo said:


> I believe in all business that would be a firing offence.  In some instances there could even be fraud investigations to ascertain how so much money could be wasted and who benefitted.


 I also disagree. Large companies engage in everything from fraud and bribery to sponsoring death gangs. Few if any of their directors are ever taken to task for these actions.



jmayo said:


> Sadly the problem with democracy is that if we continue to elect muppets that is what we will get.


 So back to an earlier question; Why don’t business people and those from the private sector enter politics? If it’s such a great job with all those perks and all. 



jmayo said:


> Why do I feel you are a member of a political party, me thinks thou protests too much ?


 Nope, I was never in a political party and am not in one now. I’m too busy running a business and looking after my family. Thankfully others are more publicly spirited and do give their time to run parties on the ground and run for office and generally safeguard our democratic system. Given that I can’t be bothered to chip in I am not going to denigrate them by referring to them as eejits, incompetent or greedy.


----------



## shnaek (24 Jul 2007)

I remember being drunk one night, and looking at a bottle of mineral water which was called 'SPA' and laughing at it. Then one of my friends pointed out to me that I was the 'SPA'. 
While we are looking at our politicians and top civil servants and calling them ejits, we have to ask - who are the real ejits?


----------



## Green (24 Jul 2007)

> Thankfully others are more publicly spirited and do give their time to run parties on the ground and run for office and generally *safeguard our democratic system*. I am not going to denigrate them by referring to them as eejits, incompetent or greedy.


 
Which Tribunal report said that Haughey had devalued our democracy? The sad reality is that a number of our politicians in the 70's & 80's didn't do anything like safegaurd our democratic system but used it for their own gain and for the gain of those who paid them. Votes on county council could be bought and sold. Also, the political system has done very little to reform the over bloated political system that we have except where by the reports of Tribunal in has been necessary to do so.


----------



## Purple (24 Jul 2007)

What's your point? 
Would our system be better if no one participated?


----------



## ang1170 (24 Jul 2007)

jmayo said:


> Jeeze How politicians in Ireland, which in relative terms is a small country, with a small economy, can justify salaries greater than those of larger stronger economies is baffling. Again why are we so special?


 
Because, jmayo, that's exactly what *does *make us so special: we put up with what others wouldn't.

Hugely entertaining posts by the way: keep up the good work!


----------



## RainyDay (24 Jul 2007)

jmayo said:


> BTW Dick Spring resigned from the Dail, he did not seek re-election, to best of my knowledge.


Wrong again - From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Spring "He remained a TD, until he lost his seat in the general election of 2002 to the Sinn Féin candidate, Martin Ferris."


jmayo said:


> Just because you disagree with my post you do not need to be condescending about it.
> Did I say that they never lose their seats ? No.
> I said they never get fired for complete incompetence.
> Has anybodys ass been kicked for PPARS, either at ministerial level or civil servant level ?
> ...


It is one of the great oft-repeated myths that 'nothing like this ever happens in the private sector'. Private sector companies go bust every day. Who got fired when Goodman Industries lost £500m within a year? Who got fired when AIB nearly went bust over ICI until the taxpayer bailed them out? Who got fired when AIB allowed Ruznak to lose millions of shareholder funds?

I personally have seen multi-million projects quietly get shelved after a year or two and the guilty parties getting promoted or moved sideways. It happens all the time.

The reasons why politicians lose their seats is irrelevant. Indeed, it shows what a risky business politics is when you realise that a politican might do a fabulous job as a minister and still lose his seat if the country moves against his party.

I'm not looking for sympathy for politicians. I'm just challenging the myths that it is a cushy life. You wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy.


----------



## jmayo (25 Jul 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Wrong again - From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Spring "He remained a TD, until he lost his seat in the general election of 2002 to the Sinn Féin candidate, Martin Ferris."
> 
> It is one of the great oft-repeated myths that 'nothing like this ever happens in the private sector'. Private sector companies go bust every day. Who got fired when Goodman Industries lost £500m within a year? Who got fired when AIB nearly went bust over ICI until the taxpayer bailed them out? Who got fired when AIB allowed Ruznak to lose millions of shareholder funds?
> 
> ...


 
Sorry, Dick Spring was not going to stand for electioon in 2002 but was convinced to do so to try and save the labour seat.

Regarding AIB I thought Ruznak got fired?
Alright he was guilty of fraud.

I think you inadvertently made one of my points.  
Yes, multi million projects in private sector get shelved quietly after a year or two, NOT 5, 6 or 7 years.  
And a few million is not 150 odd million.

There are lots of organisations, particularly the larger ones that have blown serious amounts of money through incompetence and glaring mistakes and you do find that some managers manage to shovel the cr** onto some other poor sod, so that they do not carry the can.
These would be the ar**lickers as I affectionately call them.

I have known where decisions have been made to implement a particular system, the project is not delivering or there are two many problems and it is shelved.  At that stage maybe a million may have been spent but someone decides to cut the losses and run.
Regarding PPARS this particular coarse of action was taken after how many years?


----------



## Green (26 Jul 2007)

Purple said:


> What's your point?
> Would our system be better if no one participated?


 
Read my posts and you'll see what my point is! Of course, there would be no system is no one participated. The point is that we have been systematicaly failed by many politicians over the years who have not acted in the public interest but in their own and those who have paid them. The current system does not hold Ministers to account over bad decisions or incompetence. Ministers rarely get fired when things aren't done or are done badly. The people who vote them in do so on local issues.


----------



## Sunny (26 Jul 2007)

YOBR said:


> The people who vote them in do so on local issues.


 
At least they are voted in. As for the Seanad elections, what a complete farce! It is the biggest example of 'you scratch my back and I will scratch yours' and no-body seems to bat an eyelid. You even had labour and Sinn Fein doing a voting pact for Gods sake


----------



## Green (26 Jul 2007)

Sunny said:


> At least they are voted in. As for the Seanad elections, what a complete farce! It is the biggest example of 'you scratch my back and I will scratch yours' and no-body seems to bat an eyelid. You even had labour and Sinn Fein doing a voting pact for Gods sake


 
I agree, esp re Sinn Fein and Labour


----------



## Purple (27 Jul 2007)

Sunny said:


> You even had labour and Sinn Fein doing a voting pact for Gods sake


I know! I didn't see the Irish Times pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of that. I didn't think Pat would ever get back into that bed.


----------

