# If You Were The Government......



## maison (15 Nov 2008)

I thought this would be an interesting thread given the unholy mess our powers that be have made of the budget and the economy in general.

So if you were the minister for finance/ taoiseach what would you do now to save the economy? 

(who knows they may be in here looking for good ideas!)


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## z109 (15 Nov 2008)

Resign, along with my party. Have a general election based solely on the issue of the economy. Each party to lay out its plans and sums as to how it will reduce the damage.


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## starlite68 (16 Nov 2008)

the first thing that should be done to save our economy is to get these "FF idiots" out of office fast. they have lost all creditably at this stage!


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## z103 (16 Nov 2008)

> get these "FF idiots" out of office fast.


While I agree wholeheartedly with this, there is a flaw in the plan. We don't have anyone capable to replace them with.

Maybe we could politely ask either the US, UK or Germany if they fancy governing Ireland. In exchange they can send us their criminals and store their nuclear waste here. Sounds better than more FF anyway.


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## mercman (16 Nov 2008)

Does anybody really believe that the other jokers could do a better job ? They simply have not got the brains behind them to do it. There are a couple/few good ones, but the Government is made up of more than a few.

The problems that Ireland is having, are widespread across most modern democracies. Most of Europe is in recession -- deep recession. Brian Cowen needs to weed out the Government Ministers and departments that are continually wasting money  -- in total, hundreds of millions. As well as that temporarily suspend our overseas Aid which amounts to over €900 million this year and projected for slightly less next year.


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## starlite68 (16 Nov 2008)

mercman said:


> Does anybody really believe that the other jokers could do a better job ?


 it would be hard to see how they could do a worse job at the moment.


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## mercman (16 Nov 2008)

Perhaps, but do you consider the Kenny boys to be taken serious on an international stage. With all their waffle, they have as yet to place any kind of decent Policies on the table.


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## starlite68 (16 Nov 2008)

what the country needs now is strong leadership.....and brian cowen has not shown any leadership since he took office. the country is now like a ship with a broken rudder....just being tossed from wave to wave!


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## z105 (16 Nov 2008)

IMO there should at least be a state of the nation address, they need to let us know exactly where we stand and how they are going to tackle such issues like, the economy, crime, health service and education.

We are an educated people Government, who put you in power, don't patronise us and treat us like idiots, show us some respect and put us in the picture.


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## starlite68 (16 Nov 2008)

Havealaugh said:


> IMO there should at least be a state of the nation address, they need to let us know exactly where we stand and how they are going to tackle such issues like, the economy, crime, health service and education.
> 
> We are an educated people Government, who put you in power, don't patronise us and treat us like idiots, show us some respect and put us in the picture.


yes...thats what they should do! but its starting to look like they dont have the answers to any of these quetions.


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## cancan (16 Nov 2008)

Since no one else offered anything other than complaints...

Tell state workers that 5% firings in 6 months time for low performers.
Another 5% the following year, hitting areas that have show least improvements in efficiencies first. If further cuts are needed after that, make them happen.
Scrap benchmarking and institute a pay cut across the board. 

Install college fees for courses that are of little or no benefit to the economy. Keep free college for science and maths to encourage take up in this area. Increase penalties (financial) for failure for students who treat college as a drinking break to stem the high dropout rate.

Increase rewards for those who create jobs that export goods. Stop relying on foreign companies to create jobs. Force each college student to do a basic entrepreneurship class.


Stop the handout economy and simplify the tax system. Abolish stamp duty and introduce a basic property tax based of value of house. Stop giving people free stuff for nothing. Make parents benefits reduced if kids are turning out to be toe rags. Reduce indirect taxation in unison with public service cost reductions.

Reduce the entitlement society. Too many people expect too many handouts.

Increase jail terms to be as long as the term specifies. 3 years should be 3 years.
Introduce a 3 strikes you are out policy, so repeat offers are put off the streets for good. The idea of people who have 40 previous convictions on the streets is a bloody joke.

Basically, the gov needs to grow a pair of balls, and the public needs to realise that these cuts are for their own good.
It's not just the government that needs an attitude change. The people need to realise how bad things are, and stop protesting ever little change the gov tried to make.
There is some stuff that should be protested, but most of it is just self interest bull sh....

Most of these require a change in leadership and a change of mindset in the public. The opposition better learn how to carry out the above, or ireland is screwed.


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## webtax (16 Nov 2008)

All good ideas, but we might be waiting a while for this government to make (& stick with) some tough decisions - as Colm McCarthy said, the public sectors idea of cutbacks is having margarine on their sandwiches instead of butter. Your idea for having free fees just for targetted courses is a very good one - there is far too much resources put into degrees that will deliver little economic return.

If the government were prepared to give a state of the nation address and outline how hard the situation really is & their plan for dealing with it then people would listen. They need provide a vision for an export-based economic model based on indigenous businesses and outline how they will use the education system, financing & tax breaks to achieve this. Using property as a basis for economic growth is a debunked idea and they have not given any indication that they are formulating a new strategy.


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## jem (16 Nov 2008)

i actually agree with a certian amount of cancan says.
I would first of all bring charlie back from europe and install him as Finance minister.
I would bring in compulsory redundancy in the civil service.
Increase the decentrasisation plan and make it manditory- move or slan leat(it works that way it the real world outside the Civil service.
I would reduce taxes - probably the vat rate to stimulate growth.
reduce er prsi and increase ee prsi for the higher rates payable on all gross pay/ adjusted profit. this would include the horsey set, the artists etc- no hiding place.
bring a human element into the collector generals office - where by if someone is under real pressure  and couldn't pay their vat on time they wouldn't get ******* for interest.
immidiatly speed up the payments by the govt to small business on foot of work done.
have 150% relief for tax on job increases- small business employs extra employee for say 30k per year current deduction from profits = 30k change this to 30k+50%= 45k. makes it advantageous to employ more.
needs to be very pro small business and limit the strength of unions.


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## Complainer (16 Nov 2008)

We've seen the huge wastage that arises from plans that seem sensible at the 30,000 feet level (e.g. decentralisation) but just don't work when they hit the ground. So let's drill into the detail a little;



cancan said:


> Another 5% the following year, hitting areas that have show least improvements in efficiencies first.


So how are you going to measure the efficiency of e.g.
- a policy development unit in the civil service
- a mental health treatment unit in the HSE
- a resource teacher in a disadvantaged school
- a local authority housing officer

These people don't make widgets. They deal with (mostly) people issues, which are effectively impossible to measure quantitatively.


cancan said:


> Install college fees for courses that are of little or no benefit to the economy.


Which ones don't benefit the economy?


cancan said:


> Introduce a 3 strikes you are out policy, so repeat offers are put off the streets for good. The idea of people who have 40 previous convictions on the streets is a bloody joke.


Has the '3 strikes' policy been effective elsewhere in the world?



jem said:


> i actually agree with a certian amount of cancan says.
> I would first of all bring charlie back from europe and install him as Finance minister.
> I would bring in compulsory redundancy in the civil service.
> Increase the decentrasisation plan and make it manditory- move or slan leat(it works that way it the real world outside the Civil service.
> ...


Huge contradictions here.

Given that Charlie Mc was the guy that set up many of the 'hiding places' for property investors, the horsey set, investors in private medical clinics etc, I don't think his return will do much to bring about a 'no hiding place' approach.

I've no difficulty with expect the Govt to pay all businesses (small and large) on time, but it is also reasonable to expect the VAT payments to come in on time. The Govt is must by law pay interest on late payments, so what goes around, comes around.


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## cancan (16 Nov 2008)

> So how are you going to measure the efficiency of e.g.
> - a policy development unit in the civil service
> - a mental health treatment unit in the HSE
> - a resource teacher in a disadvantaged school
> ...


There are many ways – you give them incentive to reduce costs. The depts themselves should be capable of doing so. If they can’t outside help does it for them. Just because some service is noble and needed, does not mean that it is being run efficiently. People need to realise this.


> Which ones don't benefit the economy?


 
Ones in targeted areas where we can grow an indigenous industry down the line should be free. Others less so. Solicitors and other professions for example, while needed, do bugger all for the economy. They are well paid, so let them borrow for their own education, if that is the path they choose. Cut back on maybe arts and other degrees where the immediate value is not clear. It’s a carrot and stick approach to having a more productive and educated workforce in areas that we need people. Engineering, math and science are the future. This is where we need graduates.
It would be great to have free college for all in anything they want to do forever, but it is not a wise use of money, especially at the moment.
If people want to get a degree that makes then basically unemployable, they should pay for it with their own money, not the states.



> as the '3 strikes' policy been effective elsewhere in the world?


Yes in fact. Take new York where a zero tolerance policy to crime was enacted in the 70’s, when it was a dump. Zero tolerance cleaned it up. I have lived in many countries and Ireland has a petty crime issue much greater than most. The three strikes rule takes repeat offenders and gets them off the streets. If people are not willing to play by the rules, society should not have to put up with it.
I commend the other posters who have posted positive suggestions. Too many people go around complaining about the government, what “they” should do, and when pushed, have no suggestions of their own.
If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem and all that….


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## ontour (16 Nov 2008)

Current government should redo the budget before Christmas.  No income levy below €25k and add a 4% levy for earnings over €100k.

Remove stamp duty from principal private residence's under €500k to faciliate national mobility of the workforce as many jobs will come and go in the next few years and workforce flexibility is important.

Set up a Report Waste hotline for government departments.  There are lots of anecodatal stories of certain workers in the public sector or contracted to the public sector doing nothing. Provide a phone line where people can report waste and this can be investigated.  I am sure that there are lots of hard working civil servants who would like to get rid of those people in the next office who do nothing and give them a bad name.

Make social welfare fraud the resonsibility of CAB who can not be as easily intimidated as social welfare inspectors.  As those seeking benefit rises at at alarming rate, it is critical to ensure that those getting it are doing so within the rules.

Expand the remit of Enterprise Ireland to include all innovative start-ups.  There are many new businesses that find their feet in Ireland before taking on the world.  The current disjointed structure of enteprise boards and other local groups makes business support too 'hit and miss'.


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## ubiquitous (16 Nov 2008)

cancan said:


> Take new York where a zero tolerance policy to crime was enacted in the 70’s, when it was a dump. Zero tolerance cleaned it up.


Theories differ as to whether zero tolerance was responsible for falling crime rates in NYC although this didn't stop politicians like Rudi Guiliani taking the credit for it.


From wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_tolerance
"On the historical examples of the application of zero tolerance kind of policies, all the scientific studies conclude that it didn't play a leading role in the reduction of crimes, a role which is instead claimed by its advocates.[9] In New York, the decline of crimes rate started well before Rudolf Giuliani came to power, in 1993, and none of the decreasing processes had particular inflection under him.[10][9] In the same period of time, the decrease in crime was the same in the other major US cities, even those with an opposite security policy; finally, in the years 1984-7 New York already experienced a policy similar to Giuliani's one, but it faced a crime increase instead."


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## ontour (16 Nov 2008)

> Ones in targeted areas where we can grow an indigenous industry down the line should be free.


 
Cancan - you should be in politics yourself with a statement littered with platitudes like 'targeted', 'indigenous' and 'down the line'




> Solicitors and other professions for example, while needed, do bugger all for the economy. They are well paid, so let them borrow for their own education, if that is the path they choose.


 
Solicitors do pay to to become a solicitor, professional education is the responsibility of the person or their employer. A law degree can lead to many professions apart from becoming a solicitor. The 900 odd solictors that qualify this year may dispute yoru assertion that they are 'well paid'.




> Cut back on maybe arts and other degrees where the immediate value is not clear. It’s a carrot and stick approach to having a more productive and educated workforce in areas that we need people. Engineering, math and science are the future.


We have many exporters across a wide range of sectors from fashion to architecture to agriculture and food. Limiting our potential to engineering, science and math can only reduce our potential.


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## ubiquitous (16 Nov 2008)

cancan said:


> Solicitors and other professions for example, while needed, do bugger all for the economy. They are well paid, so let them borrow for their own education, if that is the path they choose.


With respect this is codswallop. Have you heard of the IFSC? How do you propose that businesses can start up and grow without access to legal, financial and other professional expertise?


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## jem (16 Nov 2008)

Complainer said:


> Huge contradictions here.
> 
> Given that Charlie Mc was the guy that set up many of the 'hiding places' for property investors, the horsey set, investors in private medical clinics etc, I don't think his return will do much to bring about a 'no hiding place' approach.
> 
> I've no difficulty with expect the Govt to pay all businesses (small and large) on time, but it is also reasonable to expect the VAT payments to come in on time. The Govt is must by law pay interest on late payments, so what goes around, comes around.


Charlie was a think outside the box in finance. that is what is needed now.look for example at the reduction of cgt rate dramatically increasing the tax take.
The govt must pay interest but some break must be given to small business that are late paying the revenue in genuine circumstances. business is dam difficult out there and many are living from day to day and quite frankly havn't got the money to pay the revenue on time. the interest just adds to the problem, likewise the sherrif fees etc. a little common sence needed by the CG's office(total contriduction in terms I know)


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## Complainer (16 Nov 2008)

cancan said:


> There are many ways – you give them incentive to reduce costs. The depts themselves should be capable of doing so. If they can’t outside help does it for them. Just because some service is noble and needed, does not mean that it is being run efficiently. People need to realise this.


It's not a question of nobility or otherwise. It's a serious question about how you measure effeciency in areas such as the examples I gave above. It's easy to reduce costs - the difficult bit is reducing cost without reducing quality and effectiveness.



cancan said:


> Ones in targeted areas where we can grow an indigenous industry down the line should be free. Others less so. Solicitors and other professions for example, while needed, do bugger all for the economy. They are well paid, so let them borrow for their own education, if that is the path they choose. Cut back on maybe arts and other degrees where the immediate value is not clear. It’s a carrot and stick approach to having a more productive and educated workforce in areas that we need people. Engineering, math and science are the future. This is where we need graduates.
> It would be great to have free college for all in anything they want to do forever, but it is not a wise use of money, especially at the moment.
> If people want to get a degree that makes then basically unemployable, they should pay for it with their own money, not the states.


I'm a bit stunned at these comments. Just about every significant business transaction requires legal input, so your suggestion that solicitors do 'bugger all for the economy' are somewhat flawed. 


cancan said:


> Yes in fact. Take new York where a zero tolerance policy to crime was enacted in the 70’s, when it was a dump. Zero tolerance cleaned it up. I have lived in many countries and Ireland has a petty crime issue much greater than most. The three strikes rule takes repeat offenders and gets them off the streets. If people are not willing to play by the rules, society should not have to put up with it.


I'm pretty sure New York never had a '3 strikes' policy. And the zero tolerance policy was enacted by Guliani in the 90s, not in the 70s. Any the crime reductions experience by California (which did bring in a '3 strikes' policy) were pretty much matched across the states by those that didn't have a '3 strikes' policy'. We really need a bit more of evidence-based research if we are going to improve things.


cancan said:


> If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem and all that….


If you rush to implement half-cocked ideas, you will certainly make things considerably worse - just look at the decentralisation mess.


ontour said:


> Set up a Report Waste hotline for government departments. There are lots of anecodatal stories of certain workers in the public sector or contracted to the public sector doing nothing. Provide a phone line where people can report waste and this can be investigated. I am sure that there are lots of hard working civil servants who would like to get rid of those people in the next office who do nothing and give them a bad name.


While the goal is admirable, I don't think a hotline is the solution. Firstly, it would need a team to staff the hotline and follow up - do you really want MORE public servants now. Secondly, a hotline takes responsibility away from line managers. Perhaps some new process across the board to allow waste to be reported, highlighted and addressed and followed up through normal line management processed.

When my organisation was first asked about cost savings earlier this year, I sent a memo to the director with 8 or 10 ideas for saving money. Some of these ideas were partially in train, but most have been ignored.


ontour said:


> Make social welfare fraud the resonsibility of CAB who can not be as easily intimidated as social welfare inspectors. As those seeking benefit rises at at alarming rate, it is critical to ensure that those getting it are doing so within the rules.


I haven't heard that the DSFA have had any huge difficulties with intimidation in recent years. Is this a sledgehammer to crack a nut?


jem said:


> Charlie was a think outside the box in finance. that is what is needed now.look for example at the reduction of cgt rate dramatically increasing the tax take.


Charlie's 'outside the box' thinking has cost the state a huge amount of money through his rushed, mis-targeted decentralisation plan. The principle of decentralisation is great. Charlie's plan ignored the issue of the specialisation of state agencies, and the lack of transferability across agencies, and National Spatial Strategy. 

Let him pay back the State the €200m or so that he's cost us, and then I'll consider having him back.


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## cancan (16 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> With respect this is codswallop. Have you heard of the IFSC? How do you propose that businesses can start up and grow without access to legal, financial and other professional expertise?


 
It was an example - which I would happily debate somewhere else.
Lets not get away from the princpal of the idea.
Free education for useful degrees, pay for others.


This thread should be about positve things that our government should do, and not an exersize in shooting down any idea that does not fit your ideal. I'm not going to get into an arguement about the various benefits of each profession, or what they have brought/cost us over the last 10 years.

With the amount of complaining in this thread, I am glad I left ireland 10 years ago.

The can't don't attitude gets a bit wearing I must say....

Would it kill a few of ye to make a few positive suggestions as to the direction our government should take, instead of doing the usual?


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## ontour (16 Nov 2008)

Complainer said:


> While the goal is admirable, I don't think a hotline is the solution. Firstly, it would need a team to staff the hotline and follow up - do you really want MORE public servants now. Secondly, a hotline takes responsibility away from line managers.


 
I think that the staff for such a hotline could easily be found within current department staffing. This does not take away from line managers, it enhances the audit capabilities of those checking up on the line managers. There are many sources that reports could come from. Ray D'Arcy recently told Mary Harney in an interview that he was speaking to a bus driver in a hospital who was paid for the day to drive a coach that was bringing one person to the hospital. There should be a way in which this could be reported to trigger the line managers to review areas that require change.



Complainer said:


> I haven't heard that the DSFA have had any huge difficulties with intimidation in recent years. Is this a sledgehammer to crack a nut?


Do you think that they are effective is minimising/ eradicating fraud? Given your reference to the 'nut', are you aware of the fraud being very isolated?


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## Purple (16 Nov 2008)

cancan said:


> With the amount of complaining in this thread, I am glad I left ireland 10 years ago.
> 
> The can't don't attitude gets a bit wearing I must say....
> 
> Would it kill a few of ye to make a few positive suggestions as to the direction our government should take, instead of doing the usual?



Best of luck mate; you are facing down the public sector union "can't do" attitude. Since they have an effective veto over any and all government decisions that relate to the public sector, how it is run, what it costs and (most importantly) how it spends our money you can be sure that there will be no light at the end of the tunnel 'till the cancer that is the public sector unions is removed from the equation.

BTW, I agree with almost everything you said.


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## cancan (16 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> Best of luck mate; you are facing down the public sector union "can't do" attitude. Since they have an effective veto over any and all government decisions that relate to the public sector, how it is run, what it costs and (most importantly) how it spends our money you can be sure that there will be no light at the end of the tunnel 'till the cancer that is the public sector unions is removed from the equation.
> 
> BTW, I agree with almost everything you said.


 
I agree with the union issue - the people who run them don't realise that in an effort not to back down, they risk loosing all jobs for all their members, rather than coming on board and trying to find some common ground to save many.

Well we need to do something. The economic state we are in is dire, and will get worse.
It will take some seriously innovative ideas and some pain, to get us to a stabilized position.

We have many positive aspects to our country - we have some negative aspects too. I do hope that reason finds some solid ground, and that people realise that we do need to make some drastic changes in order to put the country on the correct footing.

Even if the forum member here were able to agree on a top 10 list of ideas that we could pass on to those with power, we could maybe do some good.
If trying to get a bunch or forum members to agree on such a list is hard, can you imagine what a politican faces, with unions, angry public, special interests etc....

I don't envy their task, but the people need to help them.


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## Purple (16 Nov 2008)

cancan said:


> I agree with the union issue - the people who run them don't realise that in an effort not to back down, they risk loosing all jobs for all their members, rather than coming on board and trying to find some common ground to save many.
> 
> Well we need to do something. The economic state we are in is dire, and will get worse.
> It will take some seriously innovative ideas and some pain, to get us to a stabilized position.
> ...


I agree that the task is not easy and that the public have to stop looking at its own interests first and look at what is in the national interest. The call by a number of posters for a higher levy on those earning over 100K is a classic example; taxing those who generate the wealth is just begrudgery and will contribute very little to the tax take while hitting those who work hardest (or smartest).


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## ontour (16 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> The call by a number of posters for a higher levy on those earning over 100K is a classic example; taxing those who generate the wealth is just begrudgery and will contribute very little to the tax take while hitting those who work hardest (or smartest).


 
So what is your alternative? Tax those who earn the least more as by your logic they work the least or are stupid? 
Those who earn the most do so, usually, because they deserve it. They are expected to contribute more to society because they can afford to pay high taxes and still have an exquisite quality of life. I have met very few wealthy people who have any issue paying a slightly higher tax rate.

How do you know that it would contribute very little, can you point me to that information please?


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## Purple (23 Nov 2008)

ontour said:


> So what is your alternative? Tax those who earn the least more as by your logic they work the least or are stupid?
> Those who earn the most do so, usually, because they deserve it. They are expected to contribute more to society because they can afford to pay high taxes and still have an exquisite quality of life. I have met very few wealthy people who have any issue paying a slightly higher tax rate.
> 
> How do you know that it would contribute very little, can you point me to that information please?



I see no logic in these moving the deckchairs on the Titanic type moves. I don't know how many people earn over €100'000 in Ireland but I suggest that it's not many and this tax will bring in between 50 and 100 million at most. What's that against a 10 to 15 billion shortfall?
BYW, the indirect taxes that we have brought in over the last few years are the most inequitable of all (bin charges etc) as they hit the poorest hardest.
What should have happened is a reduction in current public spending and an increase in capital spending, coupled with tax breaks to re-inflate the economy.


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## allthedoyles (23 Nov 2008)

I say BRING BACK BERTIE .!
Mr Dunlop is soon going to end up where he belongs . 
He has cost this country millions , and the only winners of the Mahon Tribunal will eb the barristers and legal counsel


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## mercman (23 Nov 2008)

Bring back Charlie McCreevy. He is simply to clever and talented to be sitting in Brussels. The Government really needs to establish a Task Force to deal with the issues on hand and not trial and error. I note today they are now about to go through Public Expenditure. The waste of money in some Government departments is horrendous. And the overseas Aid Bill of €900 millions needs to be reduced until Ireland inc can afford to make such future payments.


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## Complainer (23 Nov 2008)

mercman said:


> Bring back Charlie McCreevy. He is simply to clever and talented to be sitting in Brussels.


Bring it on, baby. Another decentralisation campaign to waste hundreds of millions on politically-inspired vanity projects is just what we need to get the economy going. And lots more tax loopholes for the horsey set and the medical set - that will surely make people feel that everyone is paying their fair share.

PS I'm being sarcastic, in case you didn't pick that up.


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## mercman (23 Nov 2008)

Yes but some reality has to come into play at some time. Small and medium businesses are finding it so tough at present that there must be thousands of companies literally clinging for survival. And sure there is a world wide credit crunch and all that but in the majority of cases most countries are not finding it as tough. Never mind McCreevy and his horsey set - they all did it. O'Cuiv spending €40 million on a new pier on the Aran Islands when the old pier was fine.


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