# Accountant Problem



## ohtwo (8 Jul 2009)

Hi,

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum. I couldnt see anywhere else to post it.

Last year we used an accountant to file our Income Tax returns for 2007.
For various reasons we decided to change accountants this year. Our new accountant has been ready to submit our return online for the past number of weeks but cannot do so as they have not received 'clearance' from our old accountant.

They have sent registered letters to the old accountant, left messages, left voicemails, as have we, but they are not responding.

My question is, why does the new accouintant need clearance for this? Surely by us giving them authorisation that should be sufficient?

Our old accountant is effectively holding us to ransom, presumably because we are taking our business elsewhere.

Is this allowed?

If this was approaching the end of October deadline then we would be in serious schtum!


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## papervalue (8 Jul 2009)

It would be now ok to go ahead and file now as it is shown you both made contact. 

You and new accountant look like you made every effort to contact old accountant for professional clearance.


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## Complainer (11 Jul 2009)

Is there money owed to the other guy?


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## daxve (12 Jul 2009)

Your old accountant is probably still on record with revenue as your agent. Only the agent currently on record can file a return on ROS so your new agent won't be able to file the return until your old agent has been changed. You don't need your old accountant to do this all you have to do is ring your revenue district and ask them to cease your old accountant and add your new accountant. You will need your new accountants TAIN number to do this.


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## deadlyduck (12 Jul 2009)

You might also consider making a complaint to your former accountants Institute [ICAI? ACCA?] if s/he is being unreasonable about facilitating a smooth transition of relevant documents etc to the new accountant.


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## Graham_07 (12 Jul 2009)

Your new accountant can email the ROS liaison officer for your district. Give their TAIN number and request that you be added to their client list now for online filing. ROS usually email back within a day and the new accountant can file online after usually 3 days. 

Once the new accountant has made reasonable efforts to get clearance they are free to proceed acting for you despite non-reply by the old accountant. 

The owing of fees is not actually a valid reason for the old accountant not responding. 

I see no point in complaining to the old accountants institute, assuming that they are a member of a recognised accountancy body (although you are free to do so). Such issues as this would be considered trivial and would not be likely to result in any action.


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## Ants09 (13 Jul 2009)

are you a sole trader or a limited company ?
if you are the latter then your old accountant/auditor has a right to keep his records as they are his and your new accountant/auditor can contact him to get copies of them,
if you are the former then the working papers or files are your's and you can visit your old accountant and take them with you ie form 11 accounts etc
if you own money to your previous accountant then he can have a lien against them untill you pay up .


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## FENERO (13 Jul 2009)

Graham_07 said:


> Your new accountant can email the ROS liaison officer for your district. Give their TAIN number and request that you be added to their client list now for online filing. ROS usually email back within a day and the new accountant can file online after usually 3 days.
> 
> Once the new accountant has made reasonable efforts to get clearance they are free to proceed acting for you despite non-reply by the old accountant.


 
I can second this. There is no reason for your new accountant not to register as your new tax agent and to go ahead and file your return. 

The issuing of 'professional clearance letters' is part of the professional standards of accountancy institutes to which members are bound. However, if the old accountant does not respond after a number of efforts, a new accountant can commence work for the client. 



> are you a sole trader or a limited company ?
> if you are the latter then your old accountant/auditor has a right to keep his records as they are his and your new accountant/auditor can contact him to get copies of them,
> if you are the former then the working papers or files are your's and you can visit your old accountant and take them with you ie form 11 accounts etc
> if you own money to your previous accountant then he can have a lien against them untill you pay up .


 
This isn't strictly correct. An accountant's working papers are his own property. The client's primary books of account and primary records belong to the client. In theory an accountant can exercise a lien to withhold a client's documents if there are unpaid fees but in practice an accountant is actually entitled to withhold very little. A lien cannot be asserted over accounting records, as defined by the Companies Acts, because such records are required to be kept and available for inspection and also in order that the company complies with legal requirements to be able to disclose with reasonable accuracy at any time the financial position of the company. The definition of accounting records covers a wide range of documents which in practice is sufficiently wide to mean that an accountant is actually entitled to withhold very little of much value. In fact the accountancy bodies advise their members that it is not worthwhile to exercise a lien against a client (unless there was a specific contractual provision in an engagement letter or similar).

Here are some of the ACCA's statements on these issues:

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]


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## Ants09 (14 Jul 2009)

This isn't strictly correct. An accountant's working papers are his own property. The client's primary books of account and primary records belong to the client. In theory an accountant can exercise a lien to withhold a client's documents if there are unpaid fees but in practice an accountant is actually entitled to withhold very little. A lien cannot be asserted over accounting records, as defined by the Companies Acts, because such records are required to be kept and available for inspection and also in order that the company complies with legal requirements to be able to disclose with reasonable accuracy at any time the financial position of the company. The definition of accounting records covers a wide range of documents which in practice is sufficiently wide to mean that an accountant is actually entitled to withhold very little of much value. In fact the accountancy bodies advise their members that it is not worthwhile to exercise a lien against a client (unless there was a specific contractual provision in an engagement letter or similar).

Here are some of the ACCA's statements on these issues:

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed][/quote]


you are looking at the acca website and the rules and regulations relating to the uk and not ireland :-S and according to a professional body in ireland it states the following 

4.4.3 Handing over Papers If a former client asks a member to hand over copies of relevant papers
either to the client or a successor agent, the member should co-operate. In particular, he should bear in mind that, with the exception of those working papers for which the client has not specifically paid, many of the documents on his files will in practice belong to the client (see Art. 3). In the event of a dispute, a member should normally seek legal advice.


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## Graham_07 (14 Jul 2009)

Ants09 said:


> you are looking at the acca website and the rules and regulations relating to the uk and not ireland :-S and according to a professional body in ireland it states the following
> 
> 4.4.3 Handing over Papers If a former client asks a member to hand over copies of relevant papers
> either to the client or a successor agent, the member should co-operate. In particular, he should bear in mind that, with the exception of those working papers for which the client has not specifically paid, many of the documents on his files will in practice belong to the client (see Art. 3). In the event of a dispute, a member should normally seek legal advice.


 
The OP refers to a problem with their accountant. I think the quote you gave is from the Irish Taxation Institute and it's application to its tax consultant members. Could you find / link one as it relates to one of the Irish Professional Accountancy Bodies in relation to this issue?


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## FENERO (14 Jul 2009)

> you are looking at the acca website and the rules and regulations relating to the uk and not ireland :-S


 

In addition to Graham07's point, I would also add that the ACCA is a global body and it's professional standards are applicable to all its members internationally, including Ireland.


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## ohtwo (15 Jul 2009)

Thanks for all the detailed responses.
To clear up a couple of things. I used an accountant to file my personal tax returns for last year and I'm fully paid up (ie: I don't owe them any money). I dont know what they are playing at to be honest. It's very bad practice and if I knew who to make a formal complaint to, I would!


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## FENERO (15 Jul 2009)

ohtwo said:


> Thanks for all the detailed responses.
> To clear up a couple of things. I used an accountant to file my personal tax returns for last year and I'm fully paid up (ie: I don't owe them any money). I dont know what they are playing at to be honest. It's very bad practice and if I knew who to make a formal complaint to, I would!


 
You could make a complaint to the Institute to which your old accountant belongs to. Although as Graham07 says, it is unlikely that the Institute would take any kind of serious action.

Is it just your new accountant that has tried to contact the old accountant? A phone call from yourself might get a response. Failing that, you could turn up at the premises and ask for the documents there and then. But if you haven't tried contacting them yourself, I would suggest that you do this first and explain your frustrations and disappointment.

Finally, if your new accountant has all the information that he needs to file your 2008 return (which it seems to be suggested that he has), then you should instruct him to go ahead and file the return (if you are happy for him to do so). He does not need to wait for a response from your old accountant (unless of course he is waiting on some information from them which may affect your 2008 return).


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## Graham_07 (15 Jul 2009)

ohtwo said:


> Thanks for all the detailed responses.
> To clear up a couple of things. I used an accountant to file my personal tax returns for last year and I'm fully paid up (ie: I don't owe them any money). I dont know what they are playing at to be honest. It's very bad practice and if I knew who to make a formal complaint to, I would!


 
Their Institute/qualifications should be on their letterhead and you can then complain to their institute if you wish. If course if they are practising as an accountant but are not a qualified member of a recognised accountancy body then there is no recourse.


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## ohtwo (15 Jul 2009)

FENERO said:


> Is it just your new accountant that has tried to contact the old accountant? A phone call from yourself might get a response.
> 
> He does not need to wait for a response from your old accountant (unless of course he is waiting on some information from them which may affect your 2008 return).



i've contacted them several times. Promises were made on a couple of occasions but mostly the calls went unsanswered and many voicemails have been left.

yep thats the problem, information is required from last year.
The only upside is that it's not near the October 31st deadline. Dunno what I would have done if it was.


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## papervalue (15 Jul 2009)

ohtwo said:


> i've contacted them several times. Promises were made on a couple of occasions but mostly the calls went unsanswered and many voicemails have been left.
> 
> yep thats the problem, information is required from last year.
> The only upside is that it's not near the October 31st deadline. Dunno what I would have done if it was.


 
Why dont you call to his office and collect the infornation?


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## ohtwo (15 Jul 2009)

papervalue said:


> Why dont you call to his office and collect the infornation?



done a couple of times also. Only ever secratary there who says she will pass on the request.

the accountant in question has told me (via the secratary) that it will be sent out, but has yet to send it out.


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## papervalue (15 Jul 2009)

ohtwo said:


> done a couple of times also. Only ever secratary there who says she will pass on the request.
> 
> the accountant in question has told me (via the secratary) that it will be sent out, but has yet to send it out.


 
Just ring and explain you are waiting so long now, You will call next Wed to collect files( No point posting out as you have not done it up to now)


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