# Football damaging patio doors



## Tuulia (6 Jul 2014)

Hi all,

I live on the ground-floor of an apartment block (owner-occupier) with the bedroom patio doors facing the communal courtyard. Kids/teenagers play football in the courtyard several hours a day, and the ball hits our patio window numerous times. We are worried that damage will be caused to the window.

We have spoken to our management company and they said that we need to identify which apartment the kids are from, so they can contact the parents...as you can imagine, this is not easy to do. The management company have said that if there is damage to the windows, they are not liable. Can somebody tell me if this is correct?

We have approached the kids many times and asked them to stop playing (the lease states no ball games) but they return again a short while later. We cannot stand by the patio windows 24/7! The kids said they know there is nothing we can do about it!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


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## mathepac (6 Jul 2014)

If ball-games are forbidden by lease terms, then the management company / managing agent are the appropriate authority to identify the transgressors and to enforce lease terms.  IMHO if they fail to do this they are liable for damage.

Put all your concerns in writing to the board members / managing agent and ask for urgent resolution.


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## RainyDay (7 Jul 2014)

THere are worse things that kids could be doing than playing football. I despair when I see those managed estates with lots of families with kids and 'no ball playing' signs around. 

Is there any better location for ball-playing that the kids could be persuaded to move to? As a last record, set up a webcam or similar behind the window to record what is going on, though that might raise some privacy issues.


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## em_cat (29 Jul 2014)

Tuulia

Look over your Land Registry Lease under Part 2 (The Demised Premises), or something similar depending the wording, you will be able to tell if you, the owner, owns the glazing or not. The lease will state something like (4) the glass of all windows of the Demised Premises. This means in our case, we own all the glass, but not the composite door frames leading to the balcony, patio or bedroom window surrounds. So if something happens, we are responsible for the repairs, not the OMC. 

However if your OMC has been made aware of the damage and provided that you have undeniable proof that the damage was caused by the football, your OMC is bound by covenant to assist you, but they are not financially liable. 

In our development we are having the same issue with football being played in the courtyards and on the rooftop gardens, even though our House Rules state very clearly no ball games, residents are still allowing their children to do so. Our RA Committee, jointly with our managing agent, is currently looking at a penalty system that will have to be voted on, but it may be the way forward in being able to enforce the house rules. 

I hope this helps.


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## STEINER (29 Jul 2014)

em_cat said:


> In our development we are having the same issue with football being played in the courtyards and on the rooftop gardens, even though our House Rules state very clearly no ball games, residents are still allowing their children to do so. Our RA Committee, jointly with our managing agent, is currently looking at a penalty system that will have to be voted on, but it may be the way forward in being able to enforce the house rules.



We are having a similar issue in our private car-park, kids literally out of control.  Residents involved ignore repeated warnings even about messing with the electronic gates.  I would be interested in a penalty system, especially to hit the  landlords involved, as owner occupiers are being played by tenants.  Who are your managing agents?  Any details re the proposed penalty system yet?


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## Steven Barrett (29 Jul 2014)

RainyDay said:


> THere are worse things that kids could be doing than playing football. I despair when I see those managed estates with lots of families with kids and 'no ball playing' signs around.
> 
> Is there any better location for ball-playing that the kids could be persuaded to move to? As a last record, set up a webcam or similar behind the window to record what is going on, though that might raise some privacy issues.



Weren't we told that apartment living was the future?! Not only did they then go and build apartments that you couldn't swing a cat in but they didn't provide any facilities for the kids to play in. There's no flat, green space provided in any of them. If you're lucky, you might have a bit of grass on a steep hill, not great if your team if playing up hill 

Back to the OP, it must be very annoying having the thud of the ball hitting the window all the time. If the lease says no ball games allowed, it is up to them to enforce it, not you.


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## em_cat (29 Jul 2014)

STEINER said:


> We are having a similar issue in our private car-park, kids literally out of control.  Residents involved ignore repeated warnings even about messing with the electronic gates.  I would be interested in a penalty system, especially to hit the  landlords involved, as owner occupiers are being played by tenants.  Who are your managing agents?  Any details re the proposed penalty system yet?



Hi Steiner

We have just had a meeting with the our MA, re the penalty system and are now in the process of finalising what we will be proposing at our upcoming AGM. I will keep you updated.


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## STEINER (30 Jul 2014)

em_cat said:


> are now in the process of finalising what we will be proposing at our upcoming AGM. I will keep you updated.



thanks em_cat


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## mathepac (30 Jul 2014)

STEINER said:


> ...  I would be interested in a penalty system, especially to hit the  landlords involved, as owner occupiers are being played by tenants.  Who are your managing agents?  Any details re the proposed penalty system yet?


Sorry I missed this. If the people concerned in anti-social behaviour are renting then the PRTB is the way to go. They will deal directly with the landlord(s).


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## STEINER (30 Jul 2014)

mathepac said:


> If the people concerned in anti-social behaviour are renting then the PRTB is the way to go. They will deal directly with the landlord(s).



thanks, I will check this out.


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## em_cat (30 Jul 2014)

mathepac has a great point there, however if you are dealing with units that are being rented are via Cluid or another voluntary housing association or via the local authority, then the PRTB  is of no use as they clearly state:

_(c) a dwelling let by or to— (i) a public authority, or (ii) voluntary housing bodies (i.e. an approved voluntary housing body which provides housing to persons who have a particular housing need e.g. the homeless, the elderly, the disabled, to name only a few on the list) (see section 6 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992 and which is occupied by a person referred to in section 9 (2) of the Housing Act 1988)

(e) a dwelling occupied under a shared ownership lease

(g) a dwelling within which the landlord also resides (i.e. landlord and tenant share the same self-contained property)

(h) a dwelling within which the spouse, parent or child of the landlord resides no lease or tenancy and agreement in writing has been entered into by any person resident in the dwelling_

[broken link removed]

So in this case, we have to rely on the OMC to contact the relevant body, then wait for them to contact their tenant, which I have say Cluid have been pretty proactive thus far in our development. We have more problems enforcing the House Rules on owner occupiers than anyone else. As all others listed above are exempt dwellings for registration with the PRTB.


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## em_cat (30 Jul 2014)

Steiner

Here a sample of what has been proposed regarding a penalty system for anti-social behaviour. Unfortunately I can't poster attachments:

Over the past few years the Board of Directors of xxx Company and the Property Management Agent have been contacted concerning breaches of the House Rules resulting in anti-social behaviour.  Anti-social behaviour can be described as behaviour that is “destructive of or hostile to other members of society” (Oxford English dictionary). Any severe and persistent anti-social behaviour that takes place is without doubt disruptive and distressing to all residents who live within a communal environment. It is particularly distressing to those residents who live within the apartment blocks where it occurs.  

All shareholders (i.e. apartment owners) sign a lease agreement to adhere to the House Rules when they take possession of their apartment. Dealing with anti-social issues incurs legal costs for all shareholders and time costs for both the Board and the Management Agent. Increased legal costs may result in increased service charges. In situations where the apartment owner no longer lives in xxx, the Board strongly advise all landlords to register with the PRTB (Private Residential Tenancies Board) and to ensure they have in place a legal lease agreement.   

In order to ensure the well-being of all residents, the Board propose the following motion for adoption at this year’s AGM. 

Motion adoption
It is proposed that xxx Management Company will adopt a streamlined process and system for dealing with a range of anti-social activity. The system is proposed as follows:

*Recording and Action Process:*
1.	All complaints of anti-social activity must be recorded i.e. date, time and details (including photographic evidence where possible) forwarded in writing to the Managing Agent.
2.	After an initial written warning to the shareholder from the Management Agent, the shareholder has 5 working days to reply.   A series of escalating fines and penalties (see below) are levied against the shareholder for their behaviour or the behaviour of their tenants.  
3.	Any landlord in xxx whose tenant(s) break any of xxx’s House Rules may have a case taken against them as shareholder of the property via the PRTB, or in the case of Dublin City Council, a case will be taken against the DCC Housing Department.

*Penalty System for Breaches of House Rules:*
1.	First occurrence – on the first occurrence of a breach of the house rules by a resident (e.g. loud partying/audio noise; littering of common areas; refer to house rules for full list), the Management Agent will issue a written warning which will be retained on file. 
2.	Second occurrence within 6 month period – on the second occurrence of a breach of the house rules within 6 month period by a resident, the Management Agent will issue a €75 fine.
3.	Third occurrence within 6 month period – on the third occurrence within 6 month period of a breach of the house rules by a resident, the Management Agent will issue a €150 fine.
4.	Fourth occurrence – on the fourth occurrence of a breach of the house rules by a resident, the Management Agent retain the right to revoke the apartment owner’s car park space.
5.	If the anti-social behaviour continues to persist, xxx Management Company and xxx shareholders retain the right to lodge a legal complaints process at the District Court.

*Appeal System*
All parties have a right to lodge an appeal with the Board of xxx Management Company within one month of receipt of first written warning from the Management Agent.

Now obviously, every development will need to seek legal advice as leases vary from development to development.

em_cat


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## STEINER (30 Jul 2014)

em_cat said:


> Here a sample of what has been proposed regarding a penalty system for anti-social behaviour.....
> 
> em_cat



thanks em_cat.  I just glanced through but will study tomorrow.


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## Gerry Canning (31 Jul 2014)

I sympathise with everyone anywhere who has to contend with the football blitz!

But in the absence of a proper play area , kids will play ball.

You can have as many sanctions/rules /fines as you like but, kids WILL play ball.

Tullia, 
Since it is bedroom patio doors, can you put a grill over the outside (i know you should not have to) the reason I ask can you put a grill over the patio is because I just can,t see you resolving this issue without more hassle than it may be worth.
And again kids WILL play ball!

Wish you luck.


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## em_cat (31 Jul 2014)

Tullia

Gerry presents a possible solution, but you would need to be very careful erecting grills without consent from your OMC as doing so could be a possible breach of your lease, not to mention planning regs and could also impact Fire Cert and overall fire safety of you and your family.

I know it is thoroughly annoying and can be very distressful to try and deal with the situation, especially if you incur financial loss as a result of the damage, if any occurs. I would suggest that if your development has a Residents Committee, you should lodge your concern with them. Also keep an incredibly detail record of when, how many, description and if at all possible, find out the unit no. the kids are from as this will enable your OMC to identify the owners and /or tenants. 

In response to kids Will play ball, no one denies that they shouldn't be doing something is a great activity for children, much better than sitting in front of a telly all day, however as in the case of our development, we have a large green open space area and an all weather football pitch that everyone is the community is entitled to use. 

Also our development, is no more than a stones throw from 5 parks so there is absolutely no excuse for parents or minders not taking kids somewhere appropriate to play ball instead of leaving them in a communal courtyard which opens directly onto peoples bedrooms and living spaces.


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