# Forming a Lobbying group for Bankruptcy term reduction



## MikeL2007 (10 Jul 2015)

All,

Further to some discussions in other forums, I intend to set up a lobbying group to reduce the term of both bankruptcy and Income Payment Orders.

I was one of many who made a submission to the recent Oireachtais committee.

As always, strength is found in numbers so I would like to encourage all those that would like to join this group to send me a Private Message.

Once formed I intend to speak to various colleagues on here to understand who and how we should lobby.

Kind regards
Mike


----------



## Silvio Dante (21 Oct 2015)

All,

After 4 unsuccessful attempts to contact my local Labour TD Aodhan O'Riordain on what progress has been made since Dail reconvened I finally got a pathetic reply to say Willie Penrose submits the bill each week but it is a "complete lottery" and they cannot advise of any date when it might be heard before telling me I'd be better off contacting Penrose directly.
I have done so but no reply yet.
MikeL2007,
Can you please contact Willie and see where we are?
I feel you will have better success being a constituent.

Thanks

Anyone else got any feedback recently?

PS
I hope Aodhan and his canvassers have a good pair of runners when they call canvassing for a vote.


----------



## Stuboy (21 Oct 2015)

I received a communication from David Hall on the issue.
I asked if there was any news on the bill being passed to which he stated: 
'Should be next month when courts committee sit'

Does anyone know of the significance of the Courts Committee, when it will actually sit, and if it will be able to bypass the legislation lottery system?


----------



## MikeL2007 (25 Oct 2015)

Silvio Dante said:


> All,
> 
> After 4 unsuccessful attempts to contact my local Labour TD Aodhan O'Riordain on what progress has been made since Dail reconvened I finally got a pathetic reply to say Willie Penrose submits the bill each week but it is a "complete lottery" and they cannot advise of any date when it might be heard before telling me I'd be better off contacting Penrose directly.
> I have done so but no reply yet.
> ...



Hi SilvioDante,

I have continued to lobby Willie Penrose and our local Labour TD Pat Rabbitte. They have both said that the next best step is to lobby the minister for justice directly. We have done so by sending her our Oireachtais submission asking with a cover letter.  The Bill is now effectively on her desk and required her sponsorship.

Suggest you and anyone else interested in seeing this through do the same.

Regards
Mike


----------



## Silvio Dante (26 Oct 2015)

MikeL2007 said:


> Hi SilvioDante,
> 
> I have continued to lobby Willie Penrose and our local Labour TD Pat Rabbitte. They have both said that the next best step is to lobby the minister for justice directly. We have done so by sending her our Oireachtais submission asking with a cover letter.  The Bill is now effectively on her desk and required her sponsorship.
> 
> ...



Thanks MikeL

I will email the Minister with same.

Do you get any sense off Willie that he is either weary of the issue of that it has run into a cul de sac?
I can assure you I'm weary of emailing Aodhan and getting nothing back.
Even Willie, who had been really sound a few months ago is failing to reply.
Never a good sign


----------



## Stuboy (27 Oct 2015)

I'll follow suit as well and mail the minister with my submission.


----------



## Matthew Moore (27 Oct 2015)

It seems Penrose is taking a stand on the bankruptcy issue and hasn't indicated whether he'll even run again. http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-for-penroses-election-decision-34123709.html

Joan Burton turned up at an event I was at recently and I expressed my disappointment that it was not mentioned in the Autumn/Winter legislation schedule. She said that she is intent on seeing it introduced in this current term and an overwhelming amount of submissions supported the reduction. However, she claimed there is considerable resistance to the proposal within FG.


----------



## Stuboy (27 Oct 2015)

pat2 said:


> ...However, she claimed there is considerable resistance to the proposal within FG.



Indeed, Averil Power was door-stepping my area at the weekend and said that was her understanding of the issue; labour were for it and FG against it.
Honestly I don't get it (FG's opposition to it) if they are as pro entrepreneurship as they state. I will never start my own business again under the current set-up, it's still draconian.


----------



## Sarenco (27 Oct 2015)

Absolutely agree with you Stuboy.  A pro-enterprise party should be in favour of a more liberal bankruptcy regime to bring us in line with the position in the UK and US.  

There still seems to be a desire to "punish" bankrupts that I have never understood.


----------



## Sarenco (27 Oct 2015)

http://michaelpidgeon.com/manifestos/docs/fg/Fine Gael GE 2011.pdf

Actually, to be fair, Fine Gael did propose reducing the bankruptcy term to one year for "honest bankrupts" (see page 19 of their 2011 manifesto).  I wonder why they changed their policy?


----------



## Catastrophe (27 Oct 2015)

Regardless of the term reduction,  I've a letter from the Courts Services stating that they haven't got the resources for assessing bankruptcy applications and so my paperwork is sitting on file and won't be examined in the near future. 
I'd have 8 months completed if I went across the water.


----------



## Silvio Dante (27 Oct 2015)

Regrettably this has become a highly political issue.
FG are furious with Labour for forcing them to postpone the election and issues like this which were important to Labour will now be used as payback (ie mess Penrose about)
Politics is such a vile area at times.


----------



## Matthew Moore (28 Oct 2015)

Silvio Dante said:


> Regrettably this has become a highly political issue.
> FG are furious with Labour for forcing them to postpone the election and issues like this which were important to Labour will now be used as payback (ie mess Penrose about)
> Politics is such a vile area at times.




I agree, it is awful to be at the mercy of politics. I've a keen eye on political developments and wondering how they will impact on out situation. Labour's most recent disaster in the opinion polls might hopefully mean that their buddies are willing to throw them a few bones. As Penrose seemed like a banker for a seat, lets hope they see try to encourage him to stay and offer some incentives.


----------



## Matthew Moore (28 Oct 2015)

Catastrophe said:


> Regardless of the term reduction,  I've a letter from the Courts Services stating that they haven't got the resources for assessing bankruptcy applications and so my paperwork is sitting on file and won't be examined in the near future.
> I'd have 8 months completed if I went across the water.



How long have they left you waiting?
That's an awful situation to be in. I was left waiting in March/April but applied as much pressure as I could and got a date in late April.


----------



## Stuboy (28 Oct 2015)

pat2 said:


> How long have they left you waiting?
> That's an awful situation to be in. I was left waiting in March/April but applied as much pressure as I could and got a date in late April.


It's funny, I was only listening to piece on the radio (was the last word, i think) where they were talking about insolvency leg. Bankruptcy was mentioned by way of low numbers applying. No mention of the fact that applications are on hold due to numbers, just spun it as 'not really that many needing the service', bit of a joke really. A dropped ball by Matt Cooper to question the guest on the freeze on applications due to the numbers involved.


----------



## Stuboy (28 Oct 2015)

pat2 said:


> How long have they left you waiting?
> That's an awful situation to be in. I was left waiting in March/April but applied as much pressure as I could and got a date in late April.


It's funny, I was only listening to piece on the radio (was the last word, i think) where they were talking about insolvency leg. Bankruptcy was mentioned by way of low numbers applying. No mention of the fact that applications are on hold due to numbers, just spun it as 'not really that many needing the service', bit of a joke really. A dropped ball by Matt Cooper to question the guest on the freeze on applications due to the numbers involved.


----------



## epicaricacy (28 Oct 2015)

Catastrophe said:


> Regardless of the term reduction,  I've a letter from the Courts Services stating that they haven't got the resources for assessing bankruptcy applications and so my paperwork is sitting on file and won't be examined in the near future.
> I'd have 8 months completed if I went across the water.



In contrast, I contacted the local court in the UK and got a date within 7 working days, followed by  a telephone interview with the Official Receiver 2 working days after successfully petitioning for bankruptcy. Discharged after 1 year.

A friend of mine successfully petitioned for UK bankruptcy in the past few months and the Official Receiver sorted out a deal with the wife for the positive equity on the PPR within 2 months !!! That's what you call efficient and humane. Conversely, the OA in Ireland will often wait years to sort out the positive equity. 

The Irish System is quite simply not fit for purpose. I'm also of the opinion that Labour are in a very weak position due to their consistently weak poll ratings and it's highly unlikely that the term will be reduced before the election.


----------



## Silvio Dante (29 Oct 2015)

All,

I have received a reply (prohibited from reproducing here) from Justice confirming the Minister can give no indication as to when any changes or indeed if any changes will be made to the current bankruptcy laws.
More depressingly still, the letter says their focus at present is on the Personal Insolvency Amendment Act 2015.

This one looks in real trouble.

I only have sympathy for Penrose here, being reneged on and messed about in disgusting fashion so others can score cheap political points.

Anyone in the queue, head the UK route would be my advice.


----------



## TLO (29 Oct 2015)

The bankruptcy process in Ireland and in England has the same net result; assets are realised, distributions are made to creditors, and the bankrupt is solvent upon discharge.   Aside from that, the two systems are are like chalk and cheese.  The bankruptcy term, 3 years in Ireland, 1 year in England gets the headlines.  However, as Epicaricacy points out above, a significant difference is that a petition for English bankruptcy is normally made in the nearest County Court.  In Ireland, a petition for bankruptcy is made in the High Court in Dublin.  What a waste of a superior courts' resources.

Another difference is that The Insolvency Service (of England and Wales) is an agency the UK's Department for Business, Innovation & Skills.  Meanwhile, the Insolvency Service of Ireland reports to the Minister for Justice and Equality. This in itself demonstrates the differing attitudes towards "the bankrupt".

A limited liability company can be liquidated, and a replacement company bought of the shelf the next day.  If we can be this efficient with corporate insolvency why not with personal insolvency?  Where the personal distress is even greater?  And on occasion has led to suicide.

Silvio Dante is right.  Get over to England or Wales.  For your own health and wellbeing, and clarity for your creditors.  Nothing is going to change in Ireland until after the election.


----------



## Sarenco (29 Oct 2015)

It's so sad that we are effectively exporting yet another problem to our neighbouring island.  And in this case it's totally unnecessary - nobody benefits from the current dysfunctional system.

My heart goes out to anybody that has to leave behind their support structures and "take the boat" simply to put what must be a very difficult chapter in their lives behind them so they can finally move on.  I often wonder how much stress and hardship are we inflicting on people as a result of our failure to implement such obvious reforms?  It's odd considering how generous we can be as a nation in so many other respects.


----------



## epicaricacy (29 Oct 2015)

Sarenco said:


> It's so sad that we are effectively exporting yet another problem to our neighbouring island.  And in this case it's totally unnecessary - nobody benefits from the current dysfunctional system.
> 
> My heart goes out to anybody that has to leave behind their support structures and "take the boat" simply to put what must be a very difficult chapter in their lives behind them so they can finally move on.  I often wonder how much stress and hardship are we inflicting on people as a result of our failure to implement such obvious reforms?  It's odd considering how generous we can be as a nation in so many other respects.



A friend who had been through UK bankruptcy - his Irish creditors didn't even respond to his IVA proposal - summed it up perfectly when he said about his UK ordeal 'it changes you'. My wife and I found it to be a harrowing experience.


----------



## Silvio Dante (29 Oct 2015)

"The Cabinet has given approval to Minister for Justice [broken link removed] to refer a proposal to cut the bankruptcy term from three years to one to an [broken link removed] committee."
If the Finance Committee, chaired by [broken link removed], agrees to reduce the length of the bankruptcy period, legislation would be introduced early in the autumn."

This is what was reported back in May.
In July the Committee (Justice Committee in fact) did agree to reduce the term and sent their recommendation to the Minister.

Now the Minister simply sits on the bill and says she will consider it in due course.

Why did she refer the bill for consideration by the Justice Committee and agree to introduce it in early autumn if they approved when it appears she had no intention of doing so?

Politics, especially the messing behind the scenes would really sicken you sometimes.


----------



## epicaricacy (30 Oct 2015)

Stuboy said:


> Indeed, Averil Power was door-stepping my area at the weekend and said that was her understanding of the issue; labour were for it and FG against it.
> Honestly I don't get it (FG's opposition to it) if they are as pro entrepreneurship as they state. I will never start my own business again under the current set-up, it's still draconian.



Fine Gael's only 2 policies re. entrepreneurship that I can see are the reduced vat rate for certain service industries and their FDI inducements. Even the Back to Enterprise Allowance from the Dept. Of Social Protection, designed to get people off the dole has been cut from 4 years to 2 years - even though it takes at least 3 years for most businesses to begin to turn a profit (in addition, it's impossible to get the dole if the business fails).


----------



## MikeL2007 (5 Nov 2015)

I've had a similar response from the Minister and from Michael Fitzmaurice TD who recently raised a PQ on the topic.  Was good to hear Willie Penrose on Newstalk yesterday trying to get it back on the agenda.

If this doesn't go through, my family and I will be Oz bound despite the fact we'll have 2 years of the bankruptcy term done in Feb.

Another 3 years of this if you take into account a 2 yr income order for example isn't worth it just to stay near family & friends.


----------



## Silvio Dante (5 Nov 2015)

MikeL2007 said:


> I've had a similar response from the Minister and from Michael Fitzmaurice TD who recently raised a PQ on the topic.  Was good to hear Willie Penrose on Newstalk yesterday trying to get it back on the agenda.
> 
> If this doesn't go through, my family and I will be Oz bound despite the fact we'll have 2 years of the bankruptcy term done in Feb.
> 
> Another 3 years of this if you take into account a 2 yr income order for example isn't worth it just to stay near family & friends.




Thanks MikeL,

Do you have a link or even the slot in which Willie was Penrose was interviewed?
A big worry I have is he seems isolated, Labour look lost and toothless.
It's as if they got their concession on no November election and were told "now get lost, you're not getting another thing this Dail"

Fitzgerald and Noonan make my blood boil after openly backing the proposal in the Spring it's now clear as mud they are blocking it.
Is it any wonder people simply do not trust a word that comes out of politician's mouths.


----------



## Bronte (5 Nov 2015)

Newstalk today with Yates, he mention from his contacts that Justice and Finance are totally opposed to any change and therefore he said it won't happen.


----------



## Stuboy (5 Nov 2015)

Bronte said:


> Newstalk today with Yates, he mention from his contacts that Justice and Finance are totally opposed to any change and therefore he said it won't happen.


to which Penrose added that his contacts in Finance said it would...who to believe? Very frustrating


----------



## Silvio Dante (5 Nov 2015)

Bronte said:


> Newstalk today with Yates, he mention from his contacts that Justice and Finance are totally opposed to any change and therefore he said it won't happen.



Hi Bronte,

Did Yates discuss this again today?

Yates discussed the topic Tuesday with Ross Maguire and Wednesday with Willie Penrose and expressed cynicism that elements within Justice and Finance would continue to block it.
Maguire and crucially Penrose expressed high degrees of confidence it would be law by year end.
Penrose said "watch for white smoke by end of Nov"

I still have faith in Penrose, we all know there are elements in Finance and Justice who oppose this (despite publicly supporting it!).
Yates is just saying what Willie knows  "I know those lads, they are tricky and will try to continue to block you" because they are old school FG heads whose form and trickery he knows too well.

Penrose is a fiery and passionate character who wont back down and I doubt Noonan and Fitzgerald will fancy being publicly rebuked for lying on a guarantee because if it isn't done by end Nov, I fully expect Penrose to do just that.
Equally important, he is well liked and respected in Labour and they won't let him be humiliated.


----------



## Bronte (6 Nov 2015)

Not 100% it was yesterday.  But I'd say Yates is bang on.


----------



## Stuboy (6 Nov 2015)

Bronte said:


> Not 100% it was yesterday.  But I'd say Yates is bang on.


it was in wednesdays interview. Yates said to Penrose; my contacts in finance and justice are opposed to it - or something along those lines.
To which Penrose said; I'm sure you have good sources but I'm surprised at Finance, I know that they have no objection to it. (again paraphrased)

on another note... a well known financial figure messaged me to say that he believes that senior people who were opposed to the measure have changed their tone in recent discussions with him and that it is now very close to coming in.

Personally, having previously worked in media and interacted with government departments on media projects, i believe that nothing is ever brought out to air without approval or purpose. I would not be surprised if the recent exposure to this is to fly a flag and see if there is any major/high profile objection to the notion. Here's hoping.


----------



## Matthew Moore (11 Nov 2015)

Looks like this will be going ahead by the end of the year. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...tcy-term-to-one-year-imminent-kenny-1.2425637

Hopefully not another false start!


----------



## Silvio Dante (11 Nov 2015)

Good news indeed Pat.

Hats off to Penrose persistence, lesser men would have given up.


----------



## Stuboy (11 Nov 2015)

pat2 said:


> Looks like this will be going ahead by the end of the year. http://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...tcy-term-to-one-year-imminent-kenny-1.2425637
> 
> Hopefully not another false start!


Doubt it. Penrose would not have been on the radio saying end of month unless something was mooted...but still...Jaysus


----------



## Matthew Moore (11 Nov 2015)

I'll be glad when it's all done with. Seems like this proposal has been around for ages now. 

Is anybody else guilty of this> [broken link removed]

I'd been driving myself around the bend!


----------



## Stuboy (12 Nov 2015)

pat2 said:


> I'll be glad when it's all done with. Seems like this proposal has been around for ages now.
> 
> Is anybody else guilty of this> [broken link removed]
> 
> I'd been driving myself around the bend!


Yep...I do that a lot.


----------



## epicaricacy (12 Nov 2015)

Great news for all those currently undischarged and for those currently considering bankruptcy!

It does beg the question as to why it's taken until now to sort out this mess.

Why were FG - and in particular, Finance, so implacably opposed to the one year discharge period in the first place? Are we to assume that they got it wrong or that political expedience has taken over? The reality is that it took the entire life time of this Government to arrive at the one year discharge period - even though our closest neighbours have had a one year discharge period for years. The Government's dithering has no doubt caused untold additional hardship for people. It centainly did for us!!


----------



## Outsider (12 Nov 2015)

Does that mean that one is now discharged after a year and then 5 year payment order kicks in? Or is it 1 year plus 4 more after that?

Whichever it is, five/six years living on the "reasonable" living expenses is still a might tough pill to swallow!


----------



## Matthew Moore (12 Nov 2015)

Outsider said:


> Does that mean that one is now discharged after a year and then 5 year payment order kicks in? Or is it 1 year plus 4 more after that?
> 
> Whichever it is, five/six years living on the "reasonable" living expenses is still a might tough pill to swallow!



Hi Outsider,

An income payment agreement (IPA) will only be sought if you income is above the guidelines for your particular situation. Generally, the OA will assess your income a few weeks after you have been adjudicated bankrupt. If your income is over the set level, the IPA will last from 5 years from that date. The IPA is reviewed on a 6 monthly basis and any alterations, in times of unexpected expenses for exmaple, can be managed by email with the OA. 

It is my understanding that the bill proposed by Deputy Penrose runs along the same lines but the maximum IPA is 3 years. In theory, this means a newly adjudicated bankrupt who is liable for an IPA should be assessed as early as possible and they will be free of the IPA pretty close to 3 years from the time they were adjudicated bankrupt. 
This would be the same as the UK.


----------



## Matthew Moore (12 Nov 2015)

epicaricacy said:


> Great news for all those currently undischarged and for those currently considering bankruptcy!
> 
> It does beg the question as to why it's taken until now to sort out this mess.
> 
> Why were FG - and in particular, Finance, so implacably opposed to the one year discharge period in the first place? Are we to assume that they got it wrong or that political expedience has taken over? The reality is that it took the entire life time of this Government to arrive at the one year discharge period - even though our closest neighbours have had a one year discharge period for years. The Government's dithering has no doubt caused untold additional hardship for people. It centainly did for us!!



They probably feared the banks were too fragile earlier to sustain a widespread crystallisation of losses if they brought in 1 year bankruptcy and it was widely used. At this stage of the game, I think it's a case of the political planets aligning in our favour. I doubt many of them ever counted the human cost.


----------



## Sarenco (12 Nov 2015)

Hats off to Willie Penrose.

This was always the correct decision but unless a senior politician is willing to commit time and effort to a reform, without an obvious political dividend, it simply wouldn't happen.

I am genuinely curious about the politics of this issue.  I remember Alan Shatter being asked by journalists why the bankruptcy term was not being reduced to one year (as promised in FG's manifesto) and thinking that the response was wholly unconvincing.

Did the Department of Finance really think the banks couldn't bear this reform?  I have my doubts.

I wonder does Eamon Gilmore's memoire shed any light on discussions at the time on this issue?


----------



## Stuboy (13 Nov 2015)

pat2 said:


> Hi Outsider,
> 
> An income payment agreement (IPA) will only be sought if you income is above the guidelines for your particular situation. Generally, the OA will assess your income a few weeks after you have been adjudicated bankrupt. If your income is over the set level, the IPA will last from 5 years from that date. The IPA is reviewed on a 6 monthly basis and any alterations, in times of unexpected expenses for exmaple, can be managed by email with the OA.
> 
> ...


If you have no ipa at time of discharge my understanding is that you are discharged and no longer under review. It is imperative not to have an income in excess of the limit at time of discharge


----------



## Stuboy (23 Nov 2015)

http://www.newstalk.com/Irish-Mortg...erhaul-of-legislation-dealing-with-insolvency

David Hall on one year bankruptcy coming into play by year end on newstalk at weekend.


----------



## Silvio Dante (23 Nov 2015)

Thanks Stu,

Nothing slated for Dail this week so it's getting tight for year end.


----------



## Catastrophe (26 Nov 2015)

Silvio Dante said:


> Thanks Stu,
> 
> Nothing slated for Dail this week so it's getting tight for year end.


Legislation for one year bankruptcy up in Dail next week according to David Hall's Facebook.  To be brought before the House by Francis Fitzgerald.


----------

