# Cavity trays not installed



## johnnyg (11 May 2010)

Hi,

We have a mono pitch roof at he back and front of our house. A wet patch has appeared in the ceiling directly below where rsj is. I have looked back over pictures of the house during construction and there is no sign of any dpc to show that a stepped dpc was put in by stone mason. even when they were putting in the timber there was nothing put in either, it seems that the flashing was just put onafter the slates and plastered over. Our house was built by a "professional builder" and is covered by homebond. The builder today put a waterproof seal above the flashing.
I personally think this is not good enough, a cavity tray should have been installed and it wasn't, what can be done, can i force the builder / homebond to rectify this..and please dont tell me to ask my engineer, as i have no faith in any of them that i have met, they all seem too afraid to critize the builder.


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## mathepac (12 May 2010)

What did the detailed construction drawings call for?


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## onq (12 May 2010)

This could be from interstitial condensation attracted to the metal of the RSJ.
The moisture in this case will be from within the house, from living processes.
Sealing the construction externally will reduce its ability to dry out.
You need to get this looked at by a competent professional.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                 as a defence or support - in and of itself - should  legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                 Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the         matters    at      hand.


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## johnnyg (12 May 2010)

"You need to get this looked at by a competent professional" these people don't exist.
What i want to know that if they were not put in, what can be done now, its in the homebond book that they should have been installed and i was told by the builder that the house was constructed to homebond specifications.
If you don't install the cavity tray, this would explain the drip and this is explained in detail in the homebond book again.
I appreciate the response onq, but thats what i always get, it could be this or that, never a definite answer from an engineer to what should be a straigt forward problem.


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## RKQ (12 May 2010)

*A little knowledge is a dangerous thing*. 
I assume the construction was inspected by your Architect, Engineer or Arch. Technician. Get professional advice. 

ONQ is correct, it could be interstitial condensation or omitted cavity tray, or a leak etc. You make not be qualified to make that call.

Get a professional to visit your site to inspect the works, your photos and the drawings - He / She will find the answer.


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## Towger (12 May 2010)

> "You need to get this looked at by a competent professional" these people don't exist.


 
They are rare but do exist. But how do you tell them from the Joe Chancer when Joe may even have the required/relevant qualifications!!!!


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## johnnyg (12 May 2010)

getting back to the problem at hand:

What i want to know that if they were not put in, what can be done now, how can it be rectified.


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## onq (12 May 2010)

johnnyg said:


> "You need to get this looked at by a competent professional" these people don't exist.
> What i want to know that if they were not put in, what can be done now, its in the homebond book that they should have been installed and i was told by the builder that the house was constructed to homebond specifications.
> If you don't install the cavity tray, this would explain the drip and this is explained in detail in the homebond book again.
> I appreciate the response onq, but thats what i always get, it could be this or that, never a definite answer from an engineer to what should be a straigt forward problem.



I don't usually promote me in an answer, but you've just denied my existence so, for the record; -

I am a competent qualified professional with 20 years post graduate experience who has specialised in investigating building defects amongst other things.
A cursory glance at my posts on AAM will confirm the depth and breadth of my knowledge on matters related to building works and problems.
There are others posting to this forum who also appear to be competent professionals.
There are people who appear to be competent building contractors here as well.

Apart from the fact that you dissed engineers too, looking to an engineer wont help in this case because they tend to specialise in; -


 civil works
 structures
 plant design and manufacturing processes
engines and vehicle dynamics
 services
environment
 In other words they don't do "small domestic weatherproofing" as a discipline.

If its water ingress, Homebond may cover it.
If its interstitial condensation, they probably won't.

You may be correct and you may not be, but regardless, you'll probably have to open up even to find out.
Of course a competent building professional could suggest ways to find out without opening up.
But you'll never know now, will you?
Have a nice day.

But don't take my word for it.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should   legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on  the         matters    at      hand.


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## Sconhome (13 May 2010)

johnnyg said:


> Our house was built by a "professional builder" and is covered by homebond. The builder today put a waterproof seal above the flashing.
> I personally think this is not good enough, a cavity tray should have been installed and it wasn't, what can be done, can i force the builder / homebond to rectify this..and please dont tell me to ask my engineer, as i have no faith in any of them that i have met, they all seem too afraid to critize the builder.



johnny,

Noone is denying that you have been let down on this one. Your personal opinion is irrelevant in regards getting this resolved.

As asked previously, what was the detail given in the construction drawings? That answer may help get you a stage further.

You have given the builder an opportunity to sort the problem out. Get a written guarantee, with personal cover, from the builder stating that the problem is fixed.

If problem is fixed, then well & good, no problem anymore.

If problem not fixed then you can force the work to be opened up and rectified to the standard detailled in the construction designs. You may not want to do this initially as you could be living in the house and dont want all the disruption etc.

The other possible outcome is a long and protracted argument between you, the architect, the engineer, the main contractor & engineering subcontractot as to the actual detail, the omissions, the 'I forgots' etc which will get you nothing but stress and a long wait with the possibility of someone or the other going out of business & nothing resolved.

Homebond. Not going to be worth the effort. I would put it on record with them, citing the builder and the issue. 

It all comes back to the construction drawings and the details.

There are many competent professional people in the construction industry and we'd prefer you use a clean, new brush when painting such a sweeping statement of your experiences.


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## onq (13 May 2010)

+1 what Sconhome has said, but allow me to go a little further.

johnnyg,

You don't come to this forum looking for advice and start dissing the competent professionals and builders who are likely to offer that advice.
If you had received poor service from someone recommended by one of us, you might have an issue, but that isn't the case.
Regardless, you don't get to rant on AAM until you achieve frequent poster status  and this isn't the correct forum for that.

We cannot be held resposible for the errors or incompetence of other people in the building industry.
We offer advice - at no cost and taking time our of our day to do it - that you may benefit from.
Assuming, that is, that you start listening to the advice you've been offered here.

Advice is cheap, but good advice is priceless.
We're offering good, free advice.
What's that worth to you?
Show some appreciation.

And don't think that merely because you've read a book of details that you understand the complexities of construction or all the possible ways a building can leak.
I've been in practice 20 years, I've read many such books, seen many buildings built, inspected many more and still I learn something new on every job.
Building in three dimensions with a variety of materials is a complex process - be very wary of anyone being too definite with an opinion.
You want a _"definite answer from an engineer to what should be a straigt  forward problem".

_This is a simplistic approach to both the problem and the route to a solution.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                   as a defence or support - in and of itself - should    legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                   Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on   the         matters    at      hand.


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## johnnyg (13 May 2010)

ONQ : Please read the original post...i asked for a solution to a problem: no cavity tray..want can be done to rectify it..i don't want other ideas of what the idea could be, when you have not assessed the problem, when it rains, a leak appears on the ceiling, indicating no cavity tray, all other options have been checked!!! i have reviewed pictures from construction and they are not installed, lead flasing was only installed when it was being slated before plastering.

If you would read the the first post, i did not make any general statement, i just don't want the usual replies to ask your engineer/architect and i stated that i have no faith in my engineer, so you and others are the ones ranting here.

But if you want to check my experience, this is my fourth house to build and each and every engineer i had (6 in total) have been useless ( i could write several pages on the items they missed even when they were given detailed plans to work off), now thats from my experience, if you couple that with 4 other people who i work with and have built houses, they will tell you the same, paying an engineer to do inspections during your build is a waste of time...

also i have been on this site since 2005 and have been seeking and giving advice since then, you have been on here since 2009, we all don't have time to reply to posts heren on a regular basis, obviously its in your best interest to contribute to promote you own business..and you are more than likely at your desk everyday.

Sconhome: they were not detailed in my drawings, i have never seen them in any drawings, even architect ones, but was told by builder when queried what methods he worked to was told that the Homebond was the bible so thats why i asked what is my recourse with homebond?

Now if someone can answer my original question and stop using my post to tell everyone how great they are!


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## onq (13 May 2010)

You didn't ask for a solution - you arrived at a conclusion based on photographs during an intermediate stage without proper investigation of the completed dwelling and wanted to know could you force the builder or Homebond to do what you - a layperson - wanted them to do.

The short answer to that is - who know?
You may be right, you may be wrong.

With a "professional builder", I'd be surprised if the stepped DPC was missing - its probably just loose, unfixed, poorly lapped or ripped - all common site faults.
That is, assuming its not interstitial condensation, or a leak from an upstairs window sill, or an open perpend joint or a leaking pipe, or... whatever.
Going in thinking you know what the answer is may well prevent you from finding the real answer and there may be more than one cause.

Seeking simplicity when you've been told there may well be complexity betrays a huge streak of denial - what's all that about?
And why after six engineers you claim were unsatisfactory have you not hired an architect or architectural technician?
If you were trying to save money does this suggest that the builder may not have been all that "professional"?

There is a lot suggested by your attitude and the selected history you've presented here.
The least of which is that its now time to pay the piper and you're seeking reductions.



> _A wet patch has appeared in the ceiling directly below where rsj is._


Tell you one thing - its the first time I've heard of water coming through an RSJ.
Like I've said before, you learn something new on every job.
That's what keeps me posting here.



ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                    as a defence or support - in and of itself - should     legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                    Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on    the         matters    at      hand.


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## johnnyg (14 May 2010)

ONQ: your ability to make assumptions is brilliant and typical of people who think they know everything about building because they have a degree in the area: 

1) _"You didn't ask for a solution"_ - please read first post again -* i did*

2) _"With a "professional builder",_ I'd be surprised if the stepped DPC was missing - its probably just loose, unfixed, poorly lapped or ripped - all common site faults" - its amazing that a normal "lay person" hasn't the ability to know if it has been installed, the pictures have been examined in detail and there is no sign of even a black strip! Maybe because i have built 3 other house gives me some expertise in the area..and just to clarify i do have a brain and i'm not stupid, its quite easy to determine if its installed or not...

3_)"Seeking simplicity when you've been told there may well be complexity betrays a huge streak of denial - what's all that about?"_ again, the builder has check and doubled checked all the other options - wondow cill/flashing/slates - i usually use AAM as a last resort as not to waste peoples time with trival threads.

4) _"And why after six engineers you claim were unsatisfactory have you not hired an architect or architectural technician?"_ again if you read the post properly, i have had not 6 engineers on this house, its been over the period of building the 4 houses in total. its being my combined experience.

5_)"If you were trying to save money does this suggest that the builder may not have been all that "professional"?"_ - i never mentioed anything about saving money, the builder was paid as per contract..again not reading the post properly!!!

6) _"The least of which is that its now time to pay the piper and you're seeking reductions." _- its nothing about getting a reduction, its about doing the job done right and getting it corrected as this is our family home, a bit of sealer won't last a lifetime and thats why i want a solution!! who knows how long the builder will be around!!!

7) _"Tell you one thing - its the first time I've heard of water coming through an RSJ"_ - again if you read the post correctly and you even quoted it yourself, the wet patch has *appeared* below the rsj on the ceiling slab...

its a pity you didn't read this post correctly first time round as it would have saved me alot of time replying to a person who keeps reading posts correctly and still not getting an answer to what i originally asked for.

If you don't have a direct answer to the problem the you should not reply, its fine to give an opinion but you don't start cutting the person who made the post because they don't agree with your opinion - its rampant on AAM people making comments for the sake of making comments to increase the number of posts they have...its about quality and not quantity of the posts IMO and none of the your posts are of use to me...


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## onq (15 May 2010)

johnnyg said:


> ONQ: your ability to make assumptions is brilliant and typical of people who think they know everything about building because they have a degree in the area:



You must have missed the part where I stated that I learn something new on every job.


> 1) _"You didn't ask for a solution"_ - please read first post again -* i did*



This what you posted:

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_"I personally think this is not good enough, a cavity tray should have  been installed and it wasn't, what can be done, *can i force the builder /  homebond to rectify this*..and please dont tell me to ask my engineer,  as i have no faith in any of them that i have met, they all seem too  afraid to critize the builder."_

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That's not looking for a solution.
That's just ranting and looking for a way to impose your will on others.
You've already been told there are other possible causes and you have rejected this sound advice.

ONQ.


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