# Send child to private school



## Liamos (26 Aug 2011)

Would you send your child / children to private school if you could afford it? Had this discussion with a few people over the weekend who are in favour of it and can obviously afford it. My eldest is 6 so we would have a few years to save. Only problem is there are two more coming after him!

But I do wonder would it be money well spent or is it just a sign of snobbery?


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## Sunny (26 Aug 2011)

Think the results generally speak for themselves but there are plenty of just as good non fee paying schools. I don't think it is snobbery.


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## Shawady (26 Aug 2011)

Liamos said:


> Only problem is there are two more coming after him!


 
And there lies the problem. You can't send one and not the others.


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## TarfHead (26 Aug 2011)

I think you are allowed afford your child the best education you can provide. If someone wants to call that _snobbery_, you can call their attitude _begrudgery_.


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## Mpsox (26 Aug 2011)

I think a lot depends on the schools in question and the ability and apptiude of your kids. 

Some kids have no interest in books/academic type activities but may be very good with their hands and a school that did more woodwork/metal work may be more benificial then one that still taught Latin.

Having gone to a boarding school myself, I also would wonder about the ethos of some of those schools. Certainly I've seen kids very into sport getting poor exam results simply because they gave their all for the school on the pitch


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## csirl (26 Aug 2011)

I've noticed, through observation over the years, that the best schools are the better non-fee paying schools in middle class areas. All things considered, kids from these schools seem to have the best outcome. The school league tables we see published from time to time show the % of kids who get into college. What they dont show is the % of kids who graduate from college with good degrees leading onto good jobs. During my own time in college, it was very noticeable that the highest drop out rate was with the wealthy kids from private schools. Probably a number of reasons for this including: i) were 'hot housed' to get into college in the first place, so maybe short on natural ability/aptitude, 2) they're not as motivated as other kids - sure they'll inherit daddys fortune or get a job in daddys company - college is just there to fill a few years, 3) the lack of focus - as dont 'need' to get a good degree - they tend to drift from course to course without actually finishing and because they can afford the fees etc.


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## terrysgirl33 (26 Aug 2011)

It depends on where you live, the standard of the secondary schools and the ability and interests of your own child, as has been mentioned before.  Like yourselves we could probably stretch for one child, but not for the three we have.  Our oldest is 7, and I'm pretty sure we will be looking at third level fees by the time she gets to that level, if she wants to go, so that's another factor.


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## Marion (27 Aug 2011)

Liamos said:


> Would you send your child / children to private school if you could afford it? Had this discussion with a few people over the weekend who are in favour of it and can obviously afford it. My eldest is 6 so we would have a few years to save. Only problem is there are two more coming after him!
> 
> But I do wonder would it be money well spent or is it just a sign of snobbery?



Forget about the snobbery business. 

What do you hope your children will achieve by sending them to a private school?

Marion


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## Thirsty (28 Aug 2011)

> sure they'll inherit *daddys *fortune or get a job in *daddys *company


Not that we are being in the slightest bit sexist here...


Re the school debate:

Choosing a school on the basis of whether you might pay a fee or not strikes me as being the daftest element to be making a decision on.

Start first with where you live: list the schools within your immediate travel range and which your child can get to without you having to drive (walk/bus/cycle) (3 x 6 years each is a lot of driving).

Ethos: religion / single sex / mixed  - what it says, what would your preference be?

Other children in the family: if you go for a single sex school, will you have to cope with two different schools possibly in two different directions?

Feeder schools: what primary school will your child attend? It is a feeder school for your preferred secondary school?

Curricular emphasis: all schools broadly offer the same subjects but many are known for a better than average Art or Music or Sports dept.  Depends on what aptitude your child has, but this may be a factor.

Enrolment criteria: a particular school might well be your preference, but are you there's?  Check out the enrolment policies of your chosen schools.

If you've done all that and the best school turns out to be a fee-paying one, you have two choices:


bite the bullet and do without the overseas holidays & new cars and foot the bill 

or find the next school on the list that isn't fee-paying and pay for 'extras' (Art/music/swimming/ grinds whatever) after school yourself.

Either way, the single most important influence in a child's education is parental support - if a child has that, they are streets ahead.


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## truthseeker (28 Aug 2011)

Thirsty said:


> Either way, the single most important influence in a child's education is parental support - if a child has that, they are streets ahead.



I agree with a lot of your post, but not with the last statement above. 

IMHO the single most important influence in a childs education is his/her peer group. I didnt go to a good school but I was top of my classes with my friends, we worked in competition with each other. We pushed each other to do well. None of our parents were especially supportive. Actually my own mother wanted me to forget my 'big ideas' of college and get a job as soon as I finished school. But all my friends were set on college, so I was too. I had to fight my corner and research all the info without parental support, and I was told that not a penny could or would be contributed by them - but as my friends were in the same position, it was ok - we encouraged each other.


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## Thirsty (28 Aug 2011)

@truthseeker, you'll find the published research bears out what I've said.  Teachers in the field will confirm it also, children with parental support do better.

In your case I would say the determination to succeed came from somewhere, even if the direction wasn't what your parents were keen on.  As my mother would have said 'it wasn't off the grass ye licked it!'


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## thesimpsons (29 Aug 2011)

I really think the parental involvement and the child's own motivation are the primary things to help a child achieve their potential.  we've just had a daughter sit the leaving this year and her friends would be in a variety of private schools, grind schools and herself in a good middle class secondary school.  The majority of friends in the grind schools did somewhere between " very well to ok".  Majority in the private schools did " very well to ok" and the majority in the middle class secondary did  " very well to ok".  The one common dominator is that all her friends would be from families where education is valued.  No major differences between them all from a results aspect but for an overall general good education with sports, extra curricular activities and good allround craic and fun, I'd stay with the normal secondary school.  By the way, the only 600point pupil I've come across this year came from the secondary school but would have parents who are very involved in their child's education, the child herself was very motivated academically and in sport from a very young age.  Ok, this all isn't scientifically proven, but from what I can see over the past 14 yrs of children's education, its the parental involvement combined with a child's own personal motivation.


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## Marion (30 Aug 2011)

Parental involvement + student's own motivation + student intelligence + facilitation by teacher.


Can't go wrong with that.

Marion


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## thedaras (31 Aug 2011)

I think "Milieu" should be added to that list Marion.,

Reason being,if you are in school with a gang of others who are dossers ,it is very very difficult to be different,it doesn't matter if its a private or public school.

Of course there are exceptions to this.

I watched a programme with David Coleman,who took teenagers out of their normal environment and brought them to a quiet place in the country,they all seemed to excel,as there was an milieu of doing the right thing.They were "allowed " to be what they wanted to be without the pressure of the local milieu.

I felt so sorry for them,having to go back to their normal place of living.


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## Mongola (1 Sep 2011)

Does fee private school equals better education? Absolutely not! It is like everything, it depends on the people who are running the ship really. 
You could have great teachers in the public sytem alongside not so great teachers and the same in the private sector. 

I suppose you would have to do your research beforehand, speak to parents who have or, better, had their children in the school to get a feel for the actual school. 

Although chilldless, I have had many dealings with schools. I used to be my work environment for a few years..it was a private school with all the celebrities & so called celebrities would bring their kids. What I've found was a willingness to please the parents rather than conveying to them excatly what was going on with their kids at school, which to me was not comprehensible. This may be a slighlty different scenario/school I'll accept that. 

I would personally (when I have kids) search for a public school before I take a look at anything private though.


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## buzybee (1 Sep 2011)

Some kids may not want to go to college.  This can be upsetting for parents who may have shelled out thousands for fee paying schools, in the hope of 'buying' a good leaving cert, in order to ensure a college place.  As another poster mentioned, the private school kids may not need qualifications and jobs as they can go into their parents business anyway.  The middle class kids in public schools know they have to get qualifications and jobs, as their parents are not wealthy.

If I were you I would try to send kids to a public school in a middle class area.  If their peers 'expect' to go to college and are not dossers, then your kids are more likely to do well at school and aim for college.

I don't know if parental support is important to encourage kids to go to college. I am in similar circumstances to Truthseeker.  I had a rural working class background, went to a city school. Most of my peers 'expected' to go to college.  In fact one friend (farming background, eldest of 11 said that in her house it is an understood thing that everone goes to college!!!!!)

My parents discouraged me from spending time studying in secondary and felt that college was a lot of nonsense. This was in the late 80s.  They had the idea that I was getting ideas above my station, aiming for college, even though I was naturally bright and got 6 honours in leaving cert.  They made it crystal clear that they could or would not contribute towards college even though I was an only child and they could afford it.  I had to try to get a college place in my hometown, then ensure I had my 4 honours for the grant.  I would not be allowed go to college away from home, even if I applied for and got medicine, dentistry etc.  (Our local college didn't offer these courses)

I really valued my college place because I knew I had to fight like mad for every single thing that contributed to it.  I had to fight to be allowed study at the weekends.  I had to be very strong mentally because constant fights about spending too much time on homework every evening were likely to wear me down.  I had chores to do at home so between these and studying I had no free time.  I feel that teenagers today are really spoilt compared to what I (and I'm sure others) had to go through.


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## Firefly (1 Sep 2011)

buzybee said:


> I had a rural working class background, went to a city school. Most of my peers 'expected' to go to college.  In fact one friend (farming background, eldest of 11 said that in her house it is an understood thing that everone goes to college!!!!!)
> 
> My parents discouraged me from spending time studying in secondary and felt that college was a lot of nonsense. This was in the late 80s.  They had the idea that I was getting ideas above my station, aiming for college, even though I was naturally bright and got 6 honours in leaving cert.  They made it crystal clear that they could or would not contribute towards college even though I was an only child and they could afford it.  I had to try to get a college place in my hometown, then ensure I had my 4 honours for the grant.  I would not be allowed go to college away from home, even if I applied for and got medicine, dentistry etc.  (Our local college didn't offer these courses)
> 
> I really valued my college place because I knew I had to fight like mad for every single thing that contributed to it.  I had to fight to be allowed study at the weekends.  I had to be very strong mentally because constant fights about spending too much time on homework every evening were likely to wear me down.  I had chores to do at home so between these and studying I had no free time.  I feel that teenagers today are really spoilt compared to what I (and I'm sure others) had to go through.



Fair play to you. If you don't mind me saying it, it sounds like your parents wanted to keep you down.


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## thedaras (1 Sep 2011)

buzybee said:


> > Some kids may not want to go to college.  This can be upsetting for parents who may have shelled out thousands for fee paying schools, in the hope of 'buying' a good leaving cert, in order to ensure a college place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well believe it or not,I also valued my college place as do my kids,most kids dont have a free ride through college,a lot of them have to work part time,and have to do chores..
Its all about bringing your kids up properly and the impression I get from your post is that anyone who has money to send their kids to a private school is rich and therefore the kids dont have to study,dont have to work ,dont have to do chores etc,I dont know where you are getting your information from,but these type of people are in the minority.you view is very extreme.


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## Staples (1 Sep 2011)

Working your way through college isn't easy but why should it be made harder than it has to be?

Working part-time is all good and well but really why do it if you don't need to?  Your time would be much better spent concentrating on your studies.  

For mainly financial reasons, I didn't even contemplate college directly after school but I would certainly have welcomed the opportunity to study without having to be concerned about my financial well being whilst doing so.  A rich daddy would have been very nice, thank you very much and good luck to any student who has one.  It doesn't make them lazy or disintersted - just privileged (and of course there's no harm to remind them of such).

IMHO, working part-time can be a major distraction for students.  The relatively good earnings (relative to pocket money anyway) facilitate a reasonably good lifestyle (by student standards) to the detriment of study.  If I had a child of college-going age, I'd like to think I could assist him to study without any such distraction.


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## truthseeker (2 Sep 2011)

buzybee said:


> They made it crystal clear that they could or would not contribute towards college even though I was an only child and they could afford it.


 
Yes, my parents also made it clear they would not contribute financially. Luckily I lived in Dublin so got to go to the college of my choice and was eligible for a small grant and the fees were free. Although I still had to work to earn enough to pay for buses, books, clothes, lunches etc...

In my case it wasnt that my parents wanted to keep me down, they simply had no conception of a university education and the word 'degree' conjured up notions of something 'a doctor or solicitor would have'. Both of them had left school very young and the mindset was that once you finished school  - you got a job. My sibling was doing an apprenticeship for a manual trade and was viewed as the paragon of virtue whereas I was the waster who just wanted to read my book 

They refused to pay for any grinds coming up to leaving cert even though the entire honours maths class bar me was doing grinds because the teacher was so bad. They just didnt see education as important, and considered it some kind of luxury that only rich people would indulge in.

Well done buzybee - you did it though eh?


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## Protocol (2 Sep 2011)

Re Truthseeker's and Buzybee's parents.


I have never met people like this.  I can't understand their behaviour.

What sort of parents would not want to help with their children's education??

They seem to actively want to hold their children back.

My parents would do anything to support me.

My friends with teenage kids have started saving for college.

Sure how else are we to get social mobility and improved education, skills, training, human capital, innovation, other than parents investing in and supporting their children??


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## Protocol (2 Sep 2011)

Truthseeker, I re-read your post.

OK, I have some sympathy with your parents.

However, my grandparents with no LC or degrees, were farsighted enough to encorage my parents generation to get training / degrees, e.g. nursing / acc / teaching.


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## truthseeker (2 Sep 2011)

@Protocol - I wasnt the only one of my friends whose parents had that mindset. 

Just to draw it out a little, my mother was far more against education than my father, he was more of the view that you should do what you want to do in life, whereas she actively believed that I should be looking for a job immediately upon finishing school. (I was in a part time job then, she thought I should accept full time - it was a local supermarket).

I remember the day the CAO results came out in the newspaper (back before the internet eh?), and I was in work, I got the Irish Times, found out I got the course I wanted and was super excited about it. I went home and immediately my mother said 'well we cant pay for it, you will have to pay for it yourself if you want to do it'. Later that evening my father took me aside seperately and told me that he would be willing to borrow to help me out and that he would talk to my mother about it. 

As it happened, with free fees and a grant available (all of 200 pounds a term!), I didnt need any financial assistance from my parents, but there was a very grey time between CAO and grant approval where I really didnt know if Id be able to go.

Closer to the end of my degree my mother told me that she hadnt really understood the whole thing, that she hadnt realised that it was possible for me to 'better myself' with an education, and that she had thought that I just wanted to go to college because I liked books but that there was no practical application to be had. She had the view that it would be wasted because surely Id just end up getting married and not working.

I didnt hold any resentment over it, my parents came from a very different background to me where sometimes there wasnt enough food on the table for everyone in the family, they had harsh childhoods themselves. They both had old fashioned views on how people should proceed through life - a trade for a boy, a job then a husband and babies for a girl. That was just their expectation - I was breaking the mould by wanting a professional qualification.

But I must stress - I wasnt the only one of my friends whose parents had similar views. And this was 20 years ago when a degree was less of a norm.


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## terrysgirl33 (2 Sep 2011)

I did the leaving in 1988 and 1989 and I was encouraged to get further education as there were no jobs in the country so you had to have something, either to work abroad with or to get a job here with.  Since we lived out the country, there were no jobs around much.  In college there were very few jobs to be had, Dunnes was regarded as being very good!

ETA, I think other people have made a good point about peer groups.  I heard of one such class when I was in college, but I'm not sure how common it is.  The other thing is, as parents, you have little control over who is in your childs class or peer group, but you can control your own expectations, and encourage the kids...


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## Betsy Og (2 Sep 2011)

Now maybe you need to generalise to get to any broad conclusions -but I think its a dangerous logic. Every child is different, you need to see what suits them as individuals - so there isnt one great answer to this question. A few of my perspectives below...............

I went to a boarding school down the country - about 25 miles from home. While the school had many students who well academically, it had a very broad base so there were plenty of people who bombed out as well. Boarders, on average, were worse than the general population, many there because it was easier than trying to handle them at home - so twas as much 'reform school' as people having notions that twas the best thing going (my parents being in the latter camp). Of the boarders I'd say I was about the only one of my year to max their potential - & get an objectively v good result.

My point is not to clap myself on the back, just to say that if someone is motivated enough they'll get past the peer group thing. Boarding schools I wouldnt recommend as its harder to break from the group - you're in the pack 24/5 or 24/19 in some cases.

Private schools and grind schools are unnecessary provided a) the local school isnt terrible and b) the child is motivated/sensible & c) the parents help (or at least dont hinder). 

In particular I think grind schools dont provide enough balance in sports and social development. When you hit Uni you need to be your own person - no one is going to make you do "homework". No good churing out 600 pointers with no social skills or balanced view of life - live is long, the leaving result becomes an old statistic fairly fast. (dont want to stigmatise high achievers by that comment, but grind schools want cyborgs, not teenagers!!)

I didnt have to work during college (though I did work hard in the Summers) - my parents paid for accomodation etc. Was I privileged?, definitely yes. Does that make me or my achievements any the lesser?, I dont think so. Lack of 'privilege' is not the greatest problem in this country, its lack of people making the most of whats given to them, be that 'privilege', brains, ability to work etc.

I cant comprehend parents who dont encourage their kids, or who make it hard for them. Everyone has priorities for cash, if its gee-gees, drink & fags or premium cars and big holidays then you wont have money for the kids - your decision. If you really feel that a private school will help your child then by all means cut everything else to pay for it - I just think that private schools are not the crucial element. If its a dosser you have they will find dossers anywhere - save your cash & try to suss out what really interests them.


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## Firefly (2 Sep 2011)

Some very sensible points in this thread. 

We live very close to a highly regarded public girls school where we intend sending our daughter. There's a boy's secondary school also quite near us that's quite good, but IMO not good enough. Also near us is a well-known private boys school (secondary) and we're planning on sending our son there. We think that these two schools are the best available for our kids. If they were both private or both public then that's where our kids would be going. On the fees issue, I think for most parents they should be doable if that's their number one priority. Actually, the yearly fee is often half the price of a creche! Also, there is quite a notice period for when the money is due (particularly if it's only private secondary education).


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## buzybee (3 Sep 2011)

Truthseeker,it is a relief to find others who had parents like mine.  Most of my peers at secondary school were all talk about parents 'making them study', being emotionally supportive about exams and college.  I think there were probably more parents like ours but people didn't come out and say it.  I didn't tell anyone at school about the extent of parents behaviour.

I think my parents didn't understand the benefits of college.  When I would say 'Mary was in college', they would say 'What is she going to be?'.  They were very suspicious of Business degrees because they could not see a clear career path from them in the same way as one would see a career path from engineering.  I was the first of all my cousins to complete secondary.  My parents were encouraging me to do a secretarial course, as I was considered 'bright'.  All my cousins worked on building sites, in pubs and supermarkets, so they thought that to work in an office would be a great step up for me.  Also, they may have been afraid that I   would change, become all snobby and be ashamed of where I came from.

Thedaras, you seem to be exaggerating all the points that I am making and are reading more into them than what I intended.  If I didn't know better I would say that you are attacking my post.

I said that it is possible to 'buy' a good leaving cert.  If a student goes to a grind school with the best of teachers, and are taught about exam technique etc, then they will make the most of their natural ability and will get a good grade. 

I never said that people with money don't have to do chores etc, and have a great life.  That is a sweeping statement and shows that you are reading too much into what I am saying, and putting your own spin on it.

I think teenagers today are a bit spoilt because the parents make it very easy for them to study, ensure study is done, provide a quiet environment etc.   This may do them no favours because when they are in college, (esp.if living away from home) they will have to do cooking, shopping, sports activities etc, and will have to timetable themselves to ensure study is done.


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## Complainer (3 Sep 2011)

Private Schools - are they worth it? [broken link removed]


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## Purple (3 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> Private Schools - are they worth it? [broken link removed]



That’s a disgracefully biased article. 

I’m with firefly on this whole topic.


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## hastalavista (3 Sep 2011)

Purple said:


> That’s a disgracefully biased article.
> 
> .



In what way may I ask?

I had a quick read and it seems a lot of waffle,

As to the comments by the school heads, well what do you expect?


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## Purple (4 Sep 2011)

hastalavista said:


> In what way may I ask?
> 
> I had a quick read and it seems a lot of waffle,
> 
> As to the comments by the school heads, well what do you expect?



In the second part the author voices various incorrect accusations about fee paying schools without giving a rebuttal.


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## Firefly (9 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> Private Schools - are they worth it? [broken link removed]



What I noticed from this article was that non-fee paying schools (examples given were Sion Hill (Blackrock), Muckross Park College  (Donnybrook) and Gaelscoileanna Coláiste Íosagáin and Coláiste Eoin  (Booterstown)) who are surrounded by fee-paying schools all seem to work very hard surrounded by such competition which is great for their pupils. It gives these schools a big incentive to compete.


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## Gordanus (2 Oct 2011)

As usual, I'll add my bit: I sent mine to a fee-paying school because it was Church of Ireland.  There was otherwise only a choice of 2 RC schools.


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## csirl (3 Oct 2011)

buzybee said:


> Truthseeker,it is a relief to find others who had parents like mine. Most of my peers at secondary school were all talk about parents 'making them study', being emotionally supportive about exams and college. I think there were probably more parents like ours but people didn't come out and say it. I didn't tell anyone at school about the extent of parents behaviour.
> 
> .


 
Truthseeker, buzybee

You are not alone - a very high proportion of the kids who I went to secondary school with had parent with the same attitude. School had a lot of students from working class areas and is currently 'designated disadvantaged'. 

There were a lot of people in my year in school who could have and should have gone to college, but didnt. Parents had the 'sure what would you want to go to college for' attitude and encouraged their children to take (usually low paid unskilled) jobs instead of going onto college. Several students in my year even go the points to go on, but took dead end jobs instead. Didnt help that some of the kids subscribed to this attitude and 'infected' their peers with it - perfect demonstration of how a combination of poor parental support and poor peer group can torpedo a kids chances. 

Thankfully my parents were more supportive.

Unfortunately the attitude above is not a thing of the past. My wife teaches in a secondary school. She says you are more likely to get a parent coming up complaining that the school has put their son in an honours class than parents complaining that their son has been put back into pass. These parents complain that the school is putting too much pressure on the kids and that the kids should be out enjoying themselves instead of studying.


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## buzybee (5 Oct 2011)

Csirl, you hit the nail on the head.  My parents complained about me spending too much time on homework, and complained when I was put into 7 honours classes.  (I wanted to do pass maths myself, as honours was time consuming).  They wanted me to spend the time doing housework and farm work.

It saddens me to hear that other parents still have this attitude (don't bother about school and stay in min wage job for the rest of your life).  I foolishly thought that things had moved on nowadays, and that most parents wanted a child to put in effort in all areas of life (school, sports, friends).  

The annoying thing for me growing up, was that I felt the only person from my background (rural, farming) with parents like this.   I couldn't get any support from like minded classmates, as all my friends were really 'middle class'   (all into education, music lessons etc).  The only classmates who had unsupportive parents (like mine) were people from 'rough' urban backgrounds who wore lots of makeup, smoked, dated boys etc.   I was not allowed do any of these things, also my parents were against college.  Therefore I didn't fit into any of the two groups.  

I  think there should be more support in the school for people with parents like mine.  There is a stereotype that the unsupportive parents are generally from disadvantaged housing estates.   There seems to be no mention ever of parents from rural areas with jobs/farming being unsupportive.


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## Betsy Og (5 Oct 2011)

buzybee said:


> There seems to be no mention ever of parents from rural areas with jobs/farming being unsupportive.


 
Coming from a rural area my experience would have been that most people saw the value of education, or if individual hadnt a natural flair for it they tended to go into trades. V few "dead end jobs" in the sticks, so qualifications be they trade or academic, and living away from home (whether elsewhere in the country or abroad) seemed to be the norm. Even in some cases of big/progressive farmers (v few around) I've seen the kids go off into other areas where there was definitely a livelihood for at least 1 there


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## buzybee (7 Oct 2011)

We were from a rural area but we were 10 miles away from one of the cities.  It was an understood thing that you would get your supermarket/shop/factory job in the city and you could commute.  Because of the low wages, and the fact that you would hand up a third of your earnings at home, you would not have enough money to rent/buy a house in town, so you would have to continue living at home long term.  Parents would have an income from the wages being handed up every week.

I felt it was vitally important to try and get some education, so I could get a reasonable job and would not have to live at home well into my 20s.  Parents were very strict about going away for weekends. Staying out late socialising would not be tolerated, even from a 20something paying for their keep.  

It was very lucky we were in a commuting distance of a university town, as my parents made it crystal clear, that I could not go to college if I had to live away from home.  We were getting a grant, but it does not cover the complete cost of living away from home.

The urban people I mentioned were from the city and had all conveniences laid up to them.  The school concentrated on trying to get them to go to college even though they would fool around in class.  The school tended to forget about genuine people who wanted to go to college but didn't fit the stereotype of disadvantaged.


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