# Ireland to move to Level 5 for January



## odyssey06

The Taoiseach Micheál Martin has confirmed that the country will move to full Level 5 restrictions in an attempt to get the latest surge in cases of Covid-19 under control.
In a televised address this evening, he said the new restrictions would remain in place for "at least" one month.

Schools are to remain closed until 11 January under the revised plans agreed by Cabinet. Primary and secondary schools had been due to reopen on Wednesday 6 January.
The decision does not apply to childcare facilities or créches.

The Level 5 restrictions include a ban on all household visits, the closure of non-essential retail and a 5km limit on travel.
Other restrictions include the closure of sports including golf and tennis, with the exception of professional or elite sports like Gaelic games and horse racing behind closed doors. Gyms will also be closed.

Weddings will be confined to 6 guests and only 10 people will be allowed to attend a funeral. 

An eviction moratorium is to be reintroduced from midnight for the duration of the latest restrictions.

* Note it is *unclear if Level 5 begins tomorrow December 31st or on January 1st*, if someone has clearer information please bump this thread









						Country moves to full Level 5 Covid-19 restrictions
					

The Taoiseach Micheál Martin has confirmed that the country will move to full Level 5 restrictions in an attempt to bring the latest surge in cases of Covid-19 under control.




					www.rte.ie


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## joer

Elite sports is right ........


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## odyssey06

Non essential retail to close *from *31st December, so I presume that means open tomorrow.





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						COVID-19 (Coronavirus)
					

The latest information on how Ireland is responding to COVID-19 (Coronavirus)




					www.gov.ie


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## Paul O Mahoney

Unfortunately all necessary. The case figures are really bad and I fear will get worse. Its a difficult time of year too, only positive we gain a few minutes extra daylight....


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## johnwilliams

what makes guys kicking footballs etc across  a field  any more elite than any other game ,all should be closed?


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## BOXtheFOX

During the last lockdown where we were required to stay 5 kms from home our local footpaths were pretty busy. Many people kept their distance when out and about, but many did not. We have all seen the unaware selfish person walking down the middle of the footpath, leaving others to get out of their way.  Does anyone know if the new Covid variant is capable of being transmitted any quicker/easier outdoors?


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## Leper

The word "lockdown" is being bandied about like it means we were all confined to home and no outside activity other than walking on your patio/balcony. Back in March Leo Varadkar was to the forefront advising that "lockdown" meant different things in different countries and that he would be slow to use the word. According to most politicians and commercial owners (and the public) we've been through more "lockdowns" than most. Nobody in Ireland except for those infected and those awaiting results of Covid tests were asked to remain at home. And it is obvious now that many of those didn't confine themselves to home anyway.

Ireland has had opportunities since March to beat the virus and to be blunt we screwed them up spectacularly. We started well and little or no motor  traffic was visible for a couple of weeks. In all the so called "lockdowns" since there has been no visible reduction of traffic on our roads. Many continued to ignore the confined distance rules; some people thought that 5kms radius allowed them to travel from Sligo to Cork to sell dogs. The commercial spokespeople informed us mortals that the "lockdown" ending in November was to be the last notwithstanding the fact that the daily infected numbers were to be between 50 to 100 people by 1st December. The infected numbers hardly went under 250 per day and still "lockdown" was lifted and despite warnings from people on this forum. Worse again the government ignored the advice of Tony Holohan and NPHET and not only that informed him and us that the government would make the decisions. Unless you think like those in the Peoples Republic of China or North Korea Mr Martin and Mr Varadkar shunned Tony Holohan and put him back in his proverbial box. The two politicians have ignored this issue since.

The virus doesn't spread itself; it needs people to spread it. We've had the opportunities with the so called circuit-breaker, but rejected them. We allowed schools to stay open during December although many school principals and teaching unions were screaming for immediate closure. Obviously, they knew a lot more than us and still the government drove on once again insuring the virus prospered. Many ran house parties, sheebeens sprung up and you could see people not keeping safe distances and refusing to wear face masks in situations where they should and couldn't even wash their hands although sanitisers were provided free of charge.

We are now at the start of January with a "lockdown" until the end of the month at least. Will we beat Covid-19 this winter? I'm nearly hearing politicians saying the Covid landscape is changing progressively with the vaccines coming and to sit tight. The commercial spokespeople will feed the fire and talk up the situation. Why do I not believe them?


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## joer

I agree with most of that Leper , The first lockdown was so different to any others but still Cheltenham was allowed to happen and lots of Irish went. Flights were allowed for essential reasons but still "we"traveled . We went to our holiday homes despite been told not to travel. The 5km rule was a joke.
The Gov went against NEPHET but in fairness whatever way they went at that time was not going to be right . They had NEPHET in one ear and the business people in the other , both screaming. As far as I can gather teachers just want to close the schools , so they can have more time off,that might be just me thinking that, of course.
Like you said some people thought that the word lockdown meant go out and party. Some so called celebs thought that anyway.
I looked at the " new year"programme last night and wondered if all those people  went straight home when it was over.....
Whatever way we go the "press" will make a big thing out of it .
I heard ,or read that in England the second doses of the vaccine has to be given within three months of the first or it is no use . They do not think that it can be delivered within that timescale though. I do not know how true that is .
Let us hope that 2021 will be good for us all. We can only hope....


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## Paul O Mahoney

joer said:


> I heard ,or read that in England the second doses of the vaccine has to be given within three months of the first or it is no use . They do not think that it can be delivered within that timescale though. I do not know how true that is .
> Let us hope that 2021 will be good for us all. We can only hope....


You heard correctly the UK are now giving the second doses of the Pfizer vaccine 12 weeks later, eventough Pfizer says that the second dose should be given in 21 days they said they have not tested the efficiency of the vaccine at 12 weeks .

This is similar to Astrazenecas vaccine but that vaccine was tested for efficiency in that time frame. 

They feel that as the Pfizer vaccine gives over 50% immune response that should be enough and they will be able to vaccinate more people with one dose.

The logic seems ok , the results will take time to assess.


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## Clamball

NPHET is pretty clear that they do not think the current level 5 restrictions will be enough.  They really want people to stay away from each other.  Are we all behaving like we did in March & April? I doubt it.  But I can’t really tell because I did not go out and about during wave 1.  In the last week I have gone out and about more.  

I took my sister to a medical appointment and will do the same in 2 weeks time.  We both wore masks in the car, hand sanitised and I opened all the windows when she was at her appointment.

I went to the leisure centre to swim several times which I did not do from the start of wave 1 until the end of wave 2. Did I feel unsafe, yeah probably, but I went at 7 am when there were max 5 others in the pool and I showered when I got home. I was still glad it closed again, at the start of this wave.

I went to the dentist and will go again in Jan, still working my way through a complex root canal. Discovered this week the dentist seems to be an antivaxer. Was pretty surprised but his practice seems very safe to me.

I will deliver groceries to my mother and sister at the weekend. I did not do this in wave 1, but I did in wave 2, I was stopped multiple times on the motorway by the Gardai but they never gave me any grief when I told them what I was doing.

So I am looking at all my out of home activities and doing my own risk assessment and modifying my behaviour to my own standards and my own understanding of the risks. There are avoidable risks there, but risks I am currently willing to take. Maybe when the numbers go higher again I won’t. Maybe the government will close dentists, reduce medical appointments, not re-open leisure centres.

What are the next steps I would take if I were the government? Close schools to all pupils aside from those of essential workers and special needs schools. Reduce attendance at schools so that all get to go in once per week. Only allow exam years to attend? Close more non essential businesses, construction? Have H&S inspectors go to workplace and decide if the accountant in the back office is essential and should be there or working from home. Maybe a bit of everything, if I were them.

A lot of restrictions are crude tools. What does 5 km mean, it really means they want people to stay local, stay home to stop the virus spreading. But does it mean if you live 6 km from a beach walk you are putting others at risk if you go, probably not. But if you meet up with your buddy from 12 km away to walk together the risks increase, but maybe he is suffering so much from loneliness you are willing to take the chance.

Some people will view the restrictions as rules to be pushed and pulled and to show how ridiculous they are to someone living outside a major urban area so they should be dumped for everyone. They fail to understand the reasons they were brought in at all.

And then you have TV and the press who seem to insist on covering high risk activities to show us stay at homers how much fun everyone else is having out and about.  The funerals with hundreds of people lining the road, all the neighbours hanging about at cross roads together to pay their respects.  Aunty Mary’s 100th birthday with a drive by but with 20 people in the house with Mary.  The “locals” out surfing.  The “family” of 10 playing sport in the park.  The neighbours who got “together” to do a dance in the street.  It drives others to change their behaviour, because if they can do it why can’t I.  The press has a lot of responsibility to show best behaviour.


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## Bronco Lane

Leper said:


> The virus doesn't spread itself; it needs people to spread it


I notice that we are no longer allowed to meet up with *anybody* in our gardens.  Is it possible that this new variant is more transmissible outdoors?

Certainly the outdoor social distancing seems to have gone by the wayside with the majority of people ignoring the original advice to keep your distance. Many people brushing past others on our local footpaths which will increase in numbers with the 5 km rule.


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## odyssey06

Bronco Lane said:


> I notice that we are no longer allowed to meet up with *anybody* in our gardens.  Is it possible that this new variant is more transmissible outdoors?
> Certainly the outdoor social distancing seems to have gone by the wayside with the majority of people ignoring the original advice to keep your distance. Many people brushing past others on our local footpaths which will increase in numbers with the 5 km rule.



The outdoor distancing has been gone since the end of first lockdown - in my experience it is now a minority observing.

The new variant may more easily attach to receptors in respiratory system... not specific to outdoors.

I think cutting outdoor visits is more about removing a reason to be interacting... plus they may suspect that a lot of the visits may turn indoors given winter weather.


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## johnwilliams

whats the story with working, factory (manufacturing) mentioned last time didnt hear anything this time?


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## odyssey06

johnwilliams said:


> whats the story with working, factory (manufacturing) mentioned last time didnt hear anything this time?



It depends on whether they are involved in the production of essential items:




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						COVID-19 (Coronavirus)
					

The latest information on how Ireland is responding to COVID-19 (Coronavirus)




					www.gov.ie


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## Merowig

Leper said:


> The infected numbers hardly went under 250 per day and still "lockdown" was lifted and despite warnings from people on this forum.


It was clear that numbers would have go up again in December. You can't lockdown forever as one would not have then any Economy left to sustain the health system. December is very important for many businesses and people.
Also the lockdown itself kills people.
Lifting the lockdown in December was right in my opinion.

And warnings from people on a random internet forum are not really impacting here government policies in most cases.



Leper said:


> Worse again the government ignored the advice of Tony Holohan and NPHET and not only that informed him and us that the government would make the decisions. Unless you think like those in the Peoples Republic of China or North Korea Mr Martin and Mr Varadkar shunned Tony Holohan and put him back in his proverbial box. The two politicians have ignored this issue since.


I completely agree with Martin/Varadkar - Holohan doesn't make here the decision - he is an unelected advisor - and he advises - the decisions are done by elected politicians - not by unelected technocrats.
I also ignored the "advice" of Holohan and went for three weeks abroad for Holidays in August - I decline to participate in the panic here.


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## PaddyBloggit

Merowig said:


> I also ignored the "advice" of Holohan and went for three weeks abroad for Holidays in August - I decline to participate in the panic here.



Thanks.


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## Leper

Merowig said:


> It was clear that numbers would have go up again in December. You can't lockdown forever as one would not have then any Economy left to sustain the health system. December is very important for many businesses and people.
> Also the lockdown itself kills people.
> Lifting the lockdown in December was right in my opinion.
> 
> And warnings from people on a random internet forum are not really impacting here government policies in most cases.
> 
> 
> I completely agree with Martin/Varadkar - Holohan doesn't make here the decision - he is an unelected advisor - and he advises - the decisions are done by elected politicians - not by unelected technocrats.
> I also ignored the "advice" of Holohan and went for three weeks abroad for Holidays in August - I decline to participate in the panic here.



1. The "lockdown" you mentioned never happened. Motor traffic maintained its normal volume. Many ignored any restrictions. If the infected numbers were increasing what was the point in relaxing restrictions? (Remember they said the number of infections would have to between 50 and 100 daily before any relaxation). The government had a chance to put infections in check and it failed. Commercial interests were put above human life and general health. The infected numbers and covid deaths this week alone bear up my argument.

2. If Tony Holohan and NPHET were advising the government. Why did it not heed the advice? The lifting of restrictions during December is a continuing dreadful  disaster. I note neither Mr Varadkar or Mr Martin have referred to the "Tony Holohan incident"since. They got it wrong.  Some of us on this forum got it right - there is a lesson there somewhere for Mr Martin and Mr Varadkar.


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## Leper

Merowig said:


> I also ignored the "advice" of Holohan and went for three weeks abroad for Holidays in August - I decline to participate in the panic here.



1. I hope you're feeling proud of yourself for that distasteful post of ignoring restrictions.
2. What panic?
3. I expect you'll allow the remainder of the country get vaccinated before you.


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## Merowig

Leper said:


> 1. The "lockdown" you mentioned never happened. Motor traffic maintained its normal volume.


Economically it happened.



> If the infected numbers were increasing what was the point in relaxing restrictions?


To give people and business some room to breath and in regards to businesses a bigger chance to survive



> Commercial interests were put above human life and general health.


The 2007/2008 crisis showed there is a clear connection between the economy and human life.



> 2. If Tony Holohan and NPHET were advising the government. Why did it not heed the advice?


Because it is just non binding advise and politicians have to look at the bigger picture and from multiple angles on problems.
Decisions are made by elected governments here in Europe not by unelected technocrats.



> 1. I hope you're feeling proud of yourself for that distasteful post of ignoring restrictions.


I did not break any law - Holohans statements are not the law. After I returned I filled out the form as required by law and that's it.



> 2. What panic?


Which I saw and still see in some people and in some media.


> 3. I expect you'll allow the remainder of the country get vaccinated before you.


Not decided by you and regardless of that I am in no rush in any case and not even sure if I will bother at all with the vaccine. I am in not in any of the risk groups. If I would be in a hurry I would fly to Eastern Europe and getting it there.
Ireland is really slow with the roll out...


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## Leper

Merowig said:


> Economically it happened.
> 
> 
> To give people and business some room to breath and in regards to businesses a bigger chance to survive
> 
> 
> The 2007/2008 crisis showed there is a clear connection between the economy and human life.
> 
> 
> Because it is just non binding advise and politicians have to look at the bigger picture and from multiple angles on problems.
> Decisions are made by elected governments here in Europe not by unelected technocrats.
> 
> 
> I did not break any law - Holohans statements are not the law. After I returned I filled out the form as required by law and that's it.
> 
> 
> Which I saw and still see in some people and in some media.
> 
> Not decided by you and regardless of that I am in no rush in any case and not even sure if I will bother at all with the vaccine. I am in not in any of the risk groups. If I would be in a hurry I would fly to Eastern Europe and getting it there.
> Ireland is really slow with the roll out...


Wow! That's put me back in my box alright. But, I don't mind, I'm sharing the same box as Tony Holohan where he was placed by the Magnificent Two.


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## Clamball

So has people’s behaviour changed since the current restrictions have been brought in?  I think some but not all.  I have changed my behaviour, staying home, and trips out have only been for essential reasons.  There thankfully has been a significant reduction in traffic past my front window which correlates with schools being closed.

But my very active retired neighbours still have their adult children and grandchildren visiting. My friend the accountant is still going to her office to work. We are getting some building work done on the site where I work (if I ever get back in) and I was being contacted by some suppliers this week to know if building is stopped. Most seem very keen to wriggle around the “essential” rule in construction.

There is definitely more fear out there and more consequences of higher risk taking.  One manufacturing site who I interact with told me in Dec that they were all working in the factory since August, even staff who could work from home.  Meetings were again held in person and there was no social distancing.  Several staff are now Covid positive and one is in intensive care.  My contact in the company told me it was all driven from the top down, all back in, business as usual.  Aside from the moral right or wrong I would think if a staff member could prove they caught the virus at work there would be a strong case of suing their employer for damages due to failure to maintain H&S standards.

I am not out and about enough to see first hand if behaviours have changed and people are staying home but it will be interesting to see what NPHET say about traffic levels.


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## odyssey06

In Dublin Bay North area a lot less cars on the road the last week v December (and less even than November) but some of that may be due to the weather.


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## Merowig

Clamball said:


> But my very active retired neighbours still have their adult children and grandchildren visiting.


Nothing wrong with that



> "No visitors are permitted in private homes or gardens except for essential family reasons such as providing care to children, elderly or vulnerable people, or as part of a support bubble.
> 
> To support those who risk isolation, you can form a bubble with 1 other household (of any size) in certain situations.
> You can then act as one extended household.
> You must still keep physical distance from people outside your support bubble.
> *Who can form a support bubble*
> You can form a support bubble with another household if you:
> 
> are living alone with children under the age of 18
> live alone
> 
> (...)"



And yes traffic will be significantly down due to school closures and closure of most of the shops.


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## Purple

Merowig said:


> Nothing wrong with that
> 
> 
> 
> And yes traffic will be significantly down due to school closures and closure of most of the shops.


No traffic this morning. M50 nearly empty. It was great!


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## Peanuts20

I've been in the office 2-3 days a week since March, nature of what my employer does in supporting key industries such as banks, transport and HSE means I've got a skeleton staff on site most days and nights of the week. (we did move 80% of staff to home working quite quickly but can't do 100%)

One thing that surprised me yesterday was that offices and factories in my industrial estate that were empty in April all seemed to have some staff on site this time round. Traffic is not that much quieter either. Are we all "essential workers" now?


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## Purple

Peanuts20 said:


> One thing that surprised me yesterday was that offices and factories in my industrial estate that were empty in April all seemed to have some staff on site this time round. Traffic is not that much quieter either. Are we all "essential workers" now?


That surprised me as well. We have to stay open as we are catagorised as essential but way more other places open than in April.


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## odyssey06

Effect of Level 5:
THE NATIONAL PUBLIC Health Emergency Team (NPHET) has reported that Ireland’s Covid-19 reproductive number has dropped to between 0.5 and 0.8.
The figure means that every ten people who contract the virus will pass it on to between five and eight other people on average between them...

However, at a briefing given by health officials this evening, he warned that the number would be difficult to maintain in the coming weeks and that Ireland faced a challenge to maintain the suppression of Covid-19.
“I do have to say that this is going to be really difficult to sustain for two reasons,” Nolan said.
“We’re going to find it hard to maintain that very low level of contact.
And secondly, we have a headwind in the form of an increase that prevalence of the B117 variant [from the UK], and because that’s more transmissible, reproduction number is going to drift upwards, even we keep our levels of social contact constant.”









						R number drops to between 0.5 and 0.8 - but NPHET warns this will be 'really difficult to sustain'
					

Health officials have regularly sought to get the reproductive number below 1.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## Purple

odyssey06 said:


> And secondly, we have a headwind in the form of an increase that prevalence of the B117 variant [from the UK], and because that’s more transmissible, reproduction number is going to drift upwards, even we keep our levels of social contact constant.”


60% of new cases are of the B117 variant.


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## odyssey06

In Denmark, the Statens ************************** Institut calculates the British variant of the coronavirus is *36 percent more contagious* than the common strain – so not as bad as previously reported. Media in the UK have reported that it is 74 percent more infectious. 
Previously it had been calculated that the country could contain the British variant with a Reproduction Rate of below 0.66, but now this figure has been *adjusted to 0.8*. For the common version, the ideal rate is below 1.0.









						The Copenhagen Post - Danish News in English
					

Statens ************************** Institut calculates the British variant of the coronavirus is 36 percent more contagious than the common strain – so not as bad as previously reported. Media in the UK have reported that it is 74 percent more infectious.  Previously it had been calculated that the country could...




					cphpost.dk


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## Merowig

Level 5 restrictions to continue until 5 March
					

The Taoiseach Micheál Martin has said the Government has decided to extend the Level 5 restrictions until 5 March with a view to crushing the numbers of those contracting the disease.




					www.rte.ie
				






> In a further bid to dissuade unnecessary travel, gardaí could be tasked with increasing their checks at airports and ports and fining people found to have breached regulations for going or returning from a foreign holiday.


Which regulations? Do they mean S.I. No. 448/2020 - Health Act 1947?

The 5km rule is only in regards to Exercise. If I have a reasonable excuse as per listed in above regulation I am not bound by the 5km exercise rule.
And how will they verify what is necessary travel abroad (work, medical appointment, training, family - we both have close family living abroad) and what is holidays - one can and will combine both. I am not dissuaded.


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## Leo

Merowig said:


> If I have a reasonable excuse as per listed in above regulation I am not bound by the 5km exercise rule.
> And how will they verify what is necessary travel abroad (work, medical appointment, training, family - we both have close family living abroad) and what is holidays - one can and will combine both.



Essential travel is covered here. They have said they will require documentary proof of essential reason to travel abroad. 



Merowig said:


> I am not dissuaded.



Others aren't either, and that is just prolonging the restrictions.


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## Merowig

Leo said:


> Essential travel is covered here. They have said they will require documentary proof of essential reason to travel abroad.


Not a problem


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## Leo

Merowig said:


> Not a problem



The main problem for anyone who has a valid reason with documentary evidence that authorities deem acceptable is that there are likely to be far fewer flights available. Then you have the requirements for clear tests for departure and return and likely quarantine requirements at the destination and when you return. So yeah, not a problem.


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## Merowig

for others the things you have listed might be problematic - for me not necessarily


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## Leo

Merowig said:


> for others the things you have listed might be problematic - for me not necessarily



Your earlier post suggested you just had close family living abroad that you'd like to visit and combine that visit with a holiday. That doesn't meet the criteria for an essential trip unless there's more to it. They've acknowledged social travel was not being correctly restricted, hopefully the increased checks and fines will dissuade most from trying it.


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## Merowig

Yes there can be more to it - "attend to vital family matters" is a valid reason. I also mentioned work (my company I work for is providing essential services to others) and training. 
Also I can schedule medical appointments abroad stating to any Garda truthfully that is not possible to get an appointment within a reasonable timeframe here.  I am also in the Reserve Forces (I am not Irish) and the several exercises which are scheduled for this year are so far not cancelled, some Reservists are volunteering to do contact tracing for two weeks, etc. etc. so I can provide a valid document stating that I am called for an exercise or service.

And by summer it is very likely restrictions are again partially rolled back.

The government can make travelling unattractive and difficult for many by e.g. the tests, mandatory self isolation, etc in order to discourage it. Doubtful travelling can and will be completely stopped though.


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## Leo

Merowig said:


> Yes there can be more to it - "attend to vital family matters" is a valid reason.



The threshold for national and international travel are quite different in relation to 'vital matters', and what authority will provide the necessary documentation to corroborate your assertion your trip is essential? 



Merowig said:


> Also I can schedule medical appointments abroad stating to any Garda truthfully that is not possible to get an appointment within a reasonable timeframe here.



You can't. 



Merowig said:


> I am also in the Reserve Forces (I am not Irish) and the several exercises which are scheduled for this year are so far not cancelled, some Reservists are volunteering to do contact tracing for two weeks, etc. etc. so I can provide a valid document stating that I am called for an exercise or service.



How does that get you on a flight to visit family and take a holiday abroad? 



Merowig said:


> The government can make travelling unattractive and difficult for many by e.g. the tests, mandatory self isolation, etc in order to discourage it. Doubtful travelling can and will be completely stopped though.



They've clearly stated that they have no intention of stopping it completely, but that they will crack down a lot more on the volume of non-essential travel that is happening at the moment. Varadkar has also spoken about reducing the current definitions of essential so that we only have 5-600 people arriving per day, potentially for the next 12 months!


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## Merowig

Coming summer we will see if I can travel or not - I definitely believe I can and I will travel - in a legal way.
E.g. as stated via travelling abroad for a short training with the armed forces and/or for work or for vital family matters - and then just extending my stay...


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## Robert Moore

Merowig said:


> Coming summer we will see if I can travel or not - I definitely believe I can and I will travel - in a legal way.
> E.g. as stated via travelling abroad for a short training with the armed forces and/or for work or for vital family matters - and then just extending my stay...



In fairness, you would seem to have a lot more legitimate reasons to fly rather than just presenting a bowl of shamrock extracted from a Mayo bog to Joe Biden.


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## Leo

Merowig said:


> E.g. as stated via travelling abroad for a short training with the armed forces and/or for work or for vital family matters - and then just extending my stay...



Hard to see the defence forces providing the necessary documents to support that, let alone send reservists off on foreign training at a time the government are trying to eliminate all non-essential foreign travel. 

The vital family reasons one would be very difficult to justify for international travel. Hopefully the more restricted language coming on that front (along with the €500 fines per person for breaches) will make it clear the limited few situations that are considered essential.


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## Purple

I though Leo Varadkar spoke well on Claire Byrne the other night. He brought up some of the many reasons why mandatory quarantine for all travelers in hotels would be a problem. That said people who are tagging on holidays or just lying about the reason for travelling should be fined, at the very least.


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## Merowig

Minister: Gardaí cannot stop people without negative Covid-19 test entering Ireland | BreakingNews.ie
					

It emerged that 80 passengers arrived into the State without proof of a negative test for Covid-19




					www.breakingnews.ie
				



"Authorities in the Republic do not have the legal entitlement to hold a person at Dublin airport indefinitely, the Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney has said. "


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## Leo

Merowig said:


> "Authorities in the Republic do not have the legal entitlement to hold a person at Dublin airport indefinitely, the Minister for Foreign Affairs Simon Coveney has said. "



An update to the emergency legislation will be required to detain, in the meantime the heavy fines should be a significant deterrent.


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## Clamball

What the travel restrictions are doing is trying to stop the spread of the virus.  It is not to stop a person going from A to B to C, and if you are virus free the whole time there is no risk to anyone else from your travels.  But the problem is you can have the virus and be unaware you are infecting others.

And it is all about risk management.  So say in theory 100K people were planning to come from London to Ireland for Christmas.  We were asked not to travel so 70K of those decided not to travel.  Either they decided themselves because they have elderly relatives or the mammy got onto them and said please don’t come or whatever.  That leaves the 30K who decide to come, and maybe 20K of those did the full 2 weeks of restricted movements before the Christmas dinner, all is good.

Then the last 10K.  These are higher risk takers, they have been working away in London, travelling around, meeting less friends and family but still a few and all in all are happier and more comfortable with a bit higher risk than the other 90K.  Maybe they are younger, or fitter, or the mam gave them a sob story about having to be home for Christmas.  And they travel and sure they only met the mam & dad and ran into a few neighbours and brought gifts home from Mary who they met in London the day they travelled because she was too afraid to come and she wanted her gifts hand deliveries to the granny.  And because they are slightly higher risk takers the statistics say that a few of them will have Covid, say 1%. And that 100 spread the B117 variant, and maybe there were just 1 or 2 who went on to be super spreaders.  That is all it could have taken to make wave 3 go exponential.

Putting more travel restrictions in place is just trying to reduce the numbers of those higher risk takers.  So we end up with only 10 of the 100 travelling and we have to think they are even higher risk because no one can persuade them not to travel and there is no way the Garda can arrest them and they do lots of things to bend and wriggle past the guidelines and regulations.  But in my mind they are a serious danger to starting off another wave because they are much less cautious than the general population and take risks.  

If we could find and segregate these few people it would be so much easier, but who can tell who they are because there is nothing to make them stand out.  This is why the restrictions are crude tools trying to modify the behaviour of a small % of the population.

This is why I worry when I hear of people taking the risk of travelling because the act of travelling in a pandemic signals to me that they are risk takers and I might ultimately end up being infected because of their decisions.


----------



## Merowig

Leo said:


> You can't.



Going for medical appointments abroad is a valid reason as I stated previously. So I can









						Going to the airport to leave the State without a valid reason is now an offence
					

People in breach may be subject to a fine of €500.




					www.thejournal.ie
				





> Among the reasonable excuses include:
> 
> 
> to leave the country if not ordinary a resident
> for work reasons
> to provide the functions of an elected office holder
> for educational reasons
> to attend a medical or dental appointment
> seek medical assistance for themselves or a vulnerable person
> to attend to vital family matters (including providing care to vulnerable persons)
> to attend a funeral
> to fulfil a legal obligation (such as attend court)
> child access arrangements



I see at least six points in above list under which I am able to travel personally.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Merowig said:


> Going for medical appointments abroad is a valid reason as I stated previously. So I can



Yes, you can. At present anyway. 

Isn’t that why many travellers to Tenerife have made appointments with a dentist over there, and that dentist is providing a list of “no shows” to the Gardai. The “no shows” will get fined but the others will not. 

Last month Leo gave a couple of examples of essential travel reasons which _may_ be changed to non-essential in the coming weeks: 

 Flying to a job interview in London
 Flying to visit a terminally ill friend/relative 

As with many Covid matters, why applies today may not apply next week. 

As an aside, I do wonder about the grey area of essential travel taking in non-essential travel. 
If I go visit my mother’s grave (50km away) is it OK to go for a walk in the woods adjacent to the graveyard, or to stop in the butchers in the local town?


----------



## Merowig

Doing groceries is not restricted by the 5km rule. And for the walk in the woods one might have got lost on the way to the butcher....









						Ireland’s toothless travel restrictions exposed as sunseekers take ‘dental’ holidays
					

‘Obviously as they are not turning up, we now understand it is just an excuse for a holiday,’ says one dental receptionist in Spain.




					www.politico.eu
				



But medical tourism is quite normal as the quality, waiting time and prices are often enough horrendous in Ireland...

Will be difficult if not impossible to stop that - and yes if someone doesn't get anything done that the person should be fined obviously.


----------



## EasilyAmused

A (reliable) little birdie told me:
Junior infants and senior infants will return to school on Monday 1st March.


----------



## odyssey06

EasilyAmused said:


> A (reliable) little birdie told me:
> Junior infants and senior infants will return to school on Monday 1st March.



The Journal concurs








						Taoiseach says junior and senior infants are likely to return to school from 1 March
					

The Taoiseach made the remarks at a Fianna Fáil parliamentary party meeting.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## EasilyAmused

odyssey06 said:


> The Journal concurs



I really should have posted this when I heard it on Monday, before it became widely reported.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Micheal Martin has indicated that it’ll be juniors up to 2nd class on 1st March.


----------



## EasilyAmused

The current Level 5 restrictions are set to remain in place until May. 2021, I hope.


----------



## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> The current Level 5 restrictions are set to remain in place until May. 2021, I hope.


The schools need to reopen. The impact on children's lives will, for many, be life long. 
We have a long history in this country of  putting children's needs last. I thought that had changed in recent years. It seems I was wrong.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Special needs schools re-opened this week.  Special needs children in other schools return on Monday. 
Junior infants, senior infants, first class and second class return on Monday 1st March. 
Further children return on 22nd March. 

Not sure when leaving certificate children return.


----------



## Ceist Beag

If children return on 22nd March for 1 week before a 2 week break for Easter, the teachers will really be taking the proverbial! And before anyone says it, I know that is exactly what they will do anyway. I'm sure most parents would sacrifice a week break before then (this week would have made perfect sense) in order to reduce the Easter break by a week. But of course the teachers unions won't entertain such notions. As Purple said, children are not being put first in the thoughts of these unions.


----------



## EasilyAmused

My daughter is in senior infants. She has one 30minute remote class on Zoom per week from her teacher. We’re considering keeping her back come September but I dunno if that’s done nowadays.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

EasilyAmused said:


> My daughter is in senior infants. She has one 30minute remote class on Zoom per week from her teacher. We’re considering keeping her back come September but I dunno if that’s done nowadays.


Not trying to tell you how to raise your family but you might think hard about that, little girls want to be  with their friends and not left behind. 
Anyway girls seem to catch up quicker too


----------



## EasilyAmused

We’ve considered that. And her friends parents are thinking of keeping their girls back too!

Junior and senior infants combined amounts to approximately 17 months in school. 

These children will have 12 months maximum. That’s a deficit of 30%. And the regression has been obvious in my daughters case. 

My son is a year older and the regression hasn’t been too apparent.

Anyway, this is a debate for a separate thread. If they go back on 1st March and remain in class ‘til end of June things should get back on track.


----------



## odyssey06

RTE news reporting that:
Cabinet has formally agreed that #level5 restrictions will remain in place until April 5th. Sense in cabinet that any easing of restrictions after that will not be far reaching - could include meeting outdoors, lifting of 5km limit and construction - but far from guaranteed


----------



## odyssey06

The Journal summarises the Living with Covid plan









						Here's what's in the new Living With Covid roadmap
					

Taoiseach Micheál Martin made the announcement this evening.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## EasilyAmused

1st March: junior infants, senior infants, first class, second class and Leaving Cert return to school. 
15th March: remainder of primary school and fifth year return to school. 
12th April: remainder of secondary return to school. 

Otherwise, as you were ‘til 5th April.


----------



## EasilyAmused

EasilyAmused said:


> 1st March: junior infants, senior infants, first class, second class and Leaving Cert return to school.



I should add that some third class students will also be returning on 1st March, e.g. where there is a mixed class of 2nd class and 3rd class pupils.


----------



## joer

If schools can open safely then why not. 
That can also be said for other businesses.


----------



## EasilyAmused

joer said:


> If schools can open safely then why not.
> That can also be said for other businesses.



School pupils are in “pods” of six separated from each other.
The entire class is in a “bubble” that is insulated from other bubbles. 
Contract tracing has shown that despite hundreds of cases of pupils in classes from September to December, transmission cases have been extremely low. Lower than in households or in the community. 
Education is regarded by many as a human right. 

I’m not sure if (m)any of the above can be applied to a hairdressers or a clothes shop or a pub.


----------



## Leo

EasilyAmused said:


> I’m not sure if (m)any of the above can be applied to a hairdressers or a clothes shop or a pub.



True, and when we hear today of a case confirmed last week who had 38 close contacts within the current restrictions, imagine what would happen if more workplaces were allowed open!!


----------



## joer

What is wrong with hairdressers opening and allowing only two or three people in at any one time , like I said safely. I can not see any problem there.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Open one type of non essential businesses and the cries of others will get louder


----------



## EasilyAmused

joer said:


> What is wrong with hairdressers opening and allowing only two or three people in at any one time , like I said safely. I can not see any problem there.



Social distancing of 2m would be impossible between the hairdresser and his/her client. If anything, hairdressers, massage parlours, nail bars should be the last to reopen. Anywhere there is contact for more than a few seconds.


----------



## demoivre

EasilyAmused said:


> I’m not sure if (m)any of the above can be applied to a hairdressers or a clothes shop or a pub.





EasilyAmused said:


> Social distancing of 2m would be impossible between the hairdresser and his/her client.



Proof of Negative Rapid Antigen Test for customer before admission, FFP3 mask on hairdresser.

I think spending 9 or 10 euro on a RAT before entering pubs the last time they reopened, and only allowing admission to those patrons that were negative, would have done more to suppress the spread of sar co v2 than a €9 bowl of chicken wings.

Fuehrer Holohan doesn't seem to think so though and that's all that matters.


----------



## Leo

joer said:


> What is wrong with hairdressers opening and allowing only two or three people in at any one time , like I said safely. I can not see any problem there.



In order for that to approach anything like safe they would need to adopt the PPE & sanitisation measures taken by medical staff who are treating potential Covid patients.


----------



## Merowig

EasilyAmused said:


> School pupils are in “pods” of six separated from each other.
> The entire class is in a “bubble” that is insulated from other bubbles.
> Contract tracing has shown that despite hundreds of cases of pupils in classes from September to December, transmission cases have been extremely low. Lower than in households or in the community.
> Education is regarded by many as a human right.
> 
> I’m not sure if (m)any of the above can be applied to a hairdressers or a clothes shop or a pub.


Just saying that Freedom of movement and assembly is also a human right and a more significant one than education.
Also kids will mix when they meet outside of school - regardless of the bubbles.


----------



## Leo

demoivre said:


> Proof of Negative Rapid Antigen Test for customer before admission, FFP3 mask on hairdresser.



Would you not expect those who are Covid positive and contagious, but still not to the point to trigger a positive antigen test to be a problem there?


----------



## Merowig

Germany is opening the hair dressers first of March. Here in Ireland I received already two recommendations where I can get a black market hair cut which I assume is thriving.

A university in Berlin did a study how large the risk is in different settings.

R Number for a two hour visit at the hair dresser is 0.6 - being half an hour in the bus has an R Number of 0.8 and in schools the R Number is 2,9 with masks and the class divided into two.
German only:









						Hier ist das Ansteckungsrisiko am höchsten
					

Ein Lockdown ist eine Hammermethode, die nicht berücksichtigt, wo das Ansteckungsrisiko tatsächlich besonders hoch ist. Wie unfair die aktuellen Maßnahmen sind und wie riskant kommende Lockerungen sein könnten, zeigt eine neue Studie der TU Berlin.




					www.n-tv.de
				








						Covid-19 Ansteckung über Aerosolpartikel – vergleichende Bewertung von Innenräumen hinsichtlich des situationsbedingten R-Wertes
					

Basierend auf einem Modell zur Bewertung des Infektionsrisikos mit SARS-CoV-2 über virenbeladene Aerosolpartikel werden verschiedene Innenräume miteinander verglichen. Die Anzahl der jeweils in der Situation durch eine bereits infizierte Person neuinfizierten Personen wird dabei...




					depositonce.tu-berlin.de
				




With all the restrictions and limitations in place and all the underhand economic activities it feels like living in Communist East Germany or Communist Romania


----------



## joer

The hairdresser that I use spent a lot of money during the first lock down to make sure they were safe. When they opened it was very safe, screens, hand sanitizer, face masks etc. If both the hairdersser and the customer are wearing masks I don"t see what the problem is. 
As well as that I need a haircut.....


----------



## EasilyAmused

I should admit that I have lobbied Norma Foley (Minister of Eduction) to reopen the schools ASAP.


----------



## Leo

Merowig said:


> A university in Berlin did a study how large the risk is in different settings.



Unless the more contagious B117 variant makes up 90% or more of their cases you understand that study is meaningless in the Irish context?


----------



## Leo

joer said:


> The hairdresser that I use spent a lot of money during the first lock down to make sure they were safe. When they opened it was very safe, screens, hand sanitizer, face masks etc. If both the hairdersser and the customer are wearing masks I don"t see what the problem is.
> As well as that I need a haircut.....



Why is it you think that health care staff treating potential cases are being taped into their PPE and changing it fully between patients? With so many seeming unable to correctly wear a mask, I wouldn't be so quick to trust.


----------



## joer

Fair point. I know exactly what health care staff have to do on a daily basis . I can only speak for where I go and I know it would be safe otherwise I would not go.


----------



## Leo

joer said:


> Fair point. I know exactly what health care staff have to do on a daily basis . I can only speak for where I go and I know it would be safe otherwise I would not go.



Yeah, my wife works in one of the main hospitals so I hear the horror stories and see how many of her friends who are cautious and going through the ordeal of regular full PPE changes yet are still contracting Covid, so the thoughts that two people who are likely wearing ill-fitting masks are safe jars with me.


----------



## joer

My daughter in law works in a nursing home so I hear the stories also. I will always put the health of everyone above everything else .


----------



## demoivre

Leo said:


> Would you not expect those who are Covid positive and contagious, but still not to the point to trigger a positive antigen test to be a problem there?



No I'm with the Harvard epidemiologist on this who says that the people that would be missed are those with viral RNA concentrations that are ~99.99999% reduced from peak infectivity and are no longer contagious.


----------



## Leo

demoivre said:


> No I'm with the Harvard epidemiologist on this who says that the people that would be missed are those with viral RNA concentrations that are ~99.99999% reduced from peak infectivity and are no longer contagious.



You mention 'no longer contagious', what about those who have not yet reached the levels of infection required to trigger an antigen test but are contagious? 

Regardless, Harvard also talk about a 20% false negative rate for PCR testing, and antigen testing is less accurate again. 

Then, who's going to carry out the test? Remember the UK's 'test to enable' trial that showed the sensitivity of rapid testing fell below 60% in people with symptoms when carried out by self-trained staff. Sensitivity was shown to be 49% for non-symptomatic people versus PCR tests.


----------



## EasilyAmused

NPHET are hinting they may suggest relaxing restrictions for those fully vaccinated.  It's being referred to as a "vaccine bonus".
People in nursing homes may be allowed visitors.
Others vaccinated my be allowed indoor maskless visitors from one other household.


----------



## Leo

EasilyAmused said:


> NPHET are hinting they may suggest relaxing restrictions for those fully vaccinated. It's being referred to as a "vaccine bonus".



They may be looking at the recent CDC guidance.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Yes, AFAIK they are.


----------



## EasilyAmused

Relaxing of restrictions on 5th April (e.g. construction) is becoming increasingly unlikely.


----------



## Wahaay

EasilyAmused said:


> Relaxing of restrictions on 5th April (e.g. construction) is becoming increasingly unlikely.



I do hope they relax the rules on a round of golf.
I rarely play myself but if any outdoor, non-spectator exercise for the older person lends itself to social distancing it's this one.
Frankly I fear the government will face a losing battle to keep public goodwill once the fine weather comes, particularly as they've performed so poorly on the vaccine roll-out and continue to blame manufacturers rather than their EU overlords.


----------



## EmmDee

Wahaay said:


> I do hope they relax the rules on a round of golf.
> I rarely play myself but if any outdoor, non-spectator exercise for the older person lends itself to social distancing it's this one.
> Frankly I fear the government will face a losing battle to keep public goodwill once the fine weather comes, particularly as they've performed so poorly on the vaccine roll-out and continue to blame manufacturers rather than their EU overlords.



I agree on this. I think it would be a smart move to give some low-risk hope to people given the building frautration at vaccine momentum. The strict rules are fraying at the edges anyway so relaxing on small outdoor groups in public spaces (golf, tennis, non contact training) might at least buy a bit more "goodwill" time to get more vaccine roll out.

And that could be done with an emphasis that indoor gatherings need to be kept out of bounds for a month or two more


----------



## EasilyAmused

Once the mandatory quarantine is in place I expect a “circuit breaker”. I’d say most people would favour the latter but only if the former is in place.


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> I do hope they relax the rules on a round of golf.
> I rarely play myself but if any outdoor, non-spectator exercise for the older person lends itself to social distancing it's this one.
> Frankly I fear the government will face a losing battle to keep public goodwill once the fine weather comes,


I agree with this.


Wahaay said:


> particularly as they've performed so poorly on the vaccine roll-out and continue to blame manufacturers rather than their EU overlords.


EU Overlords, really?
That sort of emotive language kind of invalidates your point and makes you sound stupid. Where the blame lies between the EU and AZ is still unclear but neither side is looking good. At the moment the EU looks naive and AZ look like liars.


----------



## Wahaay

Purple said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> EU Overlords, really?
> That sort of emotive language kind of invalidates your point and makes you sound stupid. Where the blame lies between the EU and AZ is still unclear but neither side is looking good. At the moment the EU looks naive and AZ look like liars.



AstraZeneca look perfectly tickety-boo to those countries which negotiated professionally with them and secured binding contracts.
The EU left their procurement in the hands of a failed German defence minister.
The only people bleating now are those who rather stupidly entrusted her with the job.


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> AstraZeneca look perfectly tickety-boo to those countries which negotiated professionally with them and secured binding contracts.
> The EU left their procurement in the hands of a failed German defence minister.
> The only people bleating now are those who rather stupidly entrusted her with the job.


See above ref emotive language.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> AstraZeneca look perfectly tickety-boo to those countries which negotiated professionally with them and secured binding contracts.
> The EU left their procurement in the hands of a failed German defence minister.
> The only people bleating now are those who rather stupidly entrusted her with the job.


Sandra Gallina was the lead negotiator and she's Italian,  she also answers all questions by MEPs in relation to the vaccine procurement who is this "failed German defense minister " ?


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Sandra Gallina was the lead negotiator and she's Italian,  she also answers all questions by MEPs in relation to the vaccine procurement who is this "failed German defense minister " ?



Ursula Von Der Leyen is the failed German Defence Minister and she over personal charge of the vaccine procurement programme from Health Minister Stella Kyriakides from Cyprus - I know, I've never heard of her either.
You can read all about it here.
www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-eu-has-botched-its-vaccination-programme
It's why that arch-EU fanboy Guy Verhofstadt has distanced himself from the German and attacked the EU's contract negotiations.
He knows which way the wind is blowing.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> Ursula Von Der Leyen is the failed German Defence Minister and she took personal charge of the vaccine procurement programme
> You can read all about it here.
> www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-eu-has-botched-its-vaccination-programme
> It's why that arch-EU fanboy Guy Verhofstadt has distanced himself from the German and attacked the EU's contract negotiations.
> He knows which way the wind is blowing.


Ahh the Spectator must be true so ......I mean they wouldn't have a biased view on the EU at all.


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Ahh the Spectator must be true so ......I mean they wouldn't have a biased view on the EU at all.



But are there any facts in the article which you think are untrue ?
It's co-authored by the UK’s former immunisation director so I presume he knows what he's talking about.
If you disagree perhaps you could provide alternative information rather than sneer at the source.


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> But are there any facts in the article which you think are untrue ?


It's very light on facts.
Here's a quote; _The EMA says AstraZeneca hasn’t submitted its application yet; it doesn’t seem to occur to anyone to pick up the phone and ask. EU institutions still see their role as blocking what could be dangerous innovations. No one has stopped to wonder if sometimes — such as in a pandemic, for example — it might be better to encourage technology. But that’s bureaucracy: it sticks to the script long after it stops making sense._

The authors have made a series of assumptions and accusations which they have made absolutely no effort to back up. It's the sort of thing that would cause bemused head shaking if overheard from some verbose drunkard in a pub.
There is no attempt to deal with facts or accurate timelines, just swipes at politicians and staff based on their nationality. I'm not a regular reader of the Spectator and if that's the standard of what passes for journalism I'm comfortable with missing their, em, "insights".


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> But are there any facts in the article which you think are untrue ?
> It's co-authored by the UK’s former immunisation director so I presume he knows what he's talking about.
> If you disagree perhaps you could provide alternative information rather than sneer at the source.


I'll sneer at what ever I want to, the Spectator is a jingoistic rag. I have other news outlets to use.


----------



## Wahaay

Purple said:


> It's very light on facts.
> Here's a quote; _The EMA says AstraZeneca hasn’t submitted its application yet; it doesn’t seem to occur to anyone to pick up the phone and ask. EU institutions still see their role as blocking what could be dangerous innovations. No one has stopped to wonder if sometimes — such as in a pandemic, for example — it might be better to encourage technology. But that’s bureaucracy: it sticks to the script long after it stops making sense._
> 
> The authors have made a series of assumptions and accusations which they have made absolutely no effort to back up. It's the sort of thing that would cause bemused head shaking if overheard from some verbose drunkard in a pub.
> There is no attempt to deal with facts or accurate timelines, just swipes at politicians and staff based on their nationality. I'm not a regular reader of the Spectator and if that's the standard of what passes for journalism I'm comfortable with missing their, em, "insights".



I must have read a different article.
Mine was full of facts on vaccines and the timeline of the procurement of them.
Perhaps you missed the fact that it was dated January 9th ...


----------



## Wahaay

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'll sneer at what ever I want to, the Spectator is a jingoistic rag. I have other news outlets to use.



Ah, so you don't disagree with any facts.
Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> I must have read a different article.
> Mine was full of facts on vaccines and the timeline of the procurement of them.
> Perhaps you missed the fact that it was dated January 9th ...


Maybe your understanding of what is and isn't a fact, especially in a given larger context, differs from mine.


----------



## Wahaay

Purple said:


> Maybe your understanding of what is and isn't a fact, especially in a given larger context, differs from mine.



Perhaps if you disagree with those facts you could provide some of your own.
You could even start with ones proving the EU vaccine procurement and roll-out programme has been anything other than a disaster.


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> Perhaps if you disagree with those facts you could provide some of your own.
> You could even start with ones proving the EU vaccine procurement and roll-out programme has been anything other than a disaster.


Read this thread.


----------



## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> Ah, so you don't disagree with any facts.
> Thanks for clearing that up.


?


----------



## Wahaay

Purple said:


> Read this thread.


So you can't.
Thanks for clearing that up.


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> So you can't.
> Thanks for clearing that up.


What, you want me to go through 5 pages which outline the details because you can't be bothered?
So far I've been working on the assumption that you are an adult. After your "I know what you are but what am I" type response I now have my doubts.


----------



## Wahaay

Purple said:


> What, you want me to go through 5 pages which outline the details because you can't be bothered?
> So far I've been working on the assumption that you are an adult. After your "I know what you are but what am I" type response I now have my doubts.



You're obviously more concerned with performing the Director's Cut of Monty Python's Argument Sketch than having an intelligent debate.
Ad hominen attacks are usually the clearest example of this and you are no exception.
I've wasted enough time responding to your playground antics.No wonder you have nearly 11,000 posts.


----------



## Leo

Wahaay said:


> AstraZeneca look perfectly tickety-boo to those countries which negotiated professionally with them and secured binding contracts.



What country negotiated a binding contract with them before they even had a vaccine ready for final production?


----------



## Wahaay

Leo said:


> What country negotiated a binding contract with them before they even had a vaccine ready for final production?



The UK for one.
Here's the announcement last April.




__





						Oxford University announces landmark partnership with AstraZeneca for the development and potential large-scale distribution of COVID-19 vaccine candidate | University of Oxford
					

30 April 2020




					www.ox.ac.uk
				



The UK had originally been in discussions with an American pharmaceutical to develop Oxford's vaccine but Health Secretary Matt Hancock, fearful of a Trump grab, specifically chose AZ precisely because they agreed to binding terms on price and delivery.
Guy Verhofstadt, surprisingly, has been the one prominent EU politician prepared to point the finger of blame.Unsurprisingly there are few here in Ireland willing to do the same.









						Two contracts, lots of questions and not nearly enough vaccines…
					

The devil is in the detail. The revelation of the contract between AstraZeneca and the UK yesterday is ample proof of that wisdom.




					guyverhofstadt.medium.com
				




www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoHRMOynz2c


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> You're obviously more concerned with performing the Director's Cut of Monty Python's Argument Sketch than having an intelligent debate.
> Ad hominen attacks are usually the clearest example of this and you are no exception.
> I've wasted enough time responding to your playground antics.No wonder you have nearly 11,000 posts.


After it was pointed out that the Spectator Article you posed was nothing more than hyperbole with a touch of jingoism, coated in assumptions and half truths you asked for facts to counter the facts in the article. 
The details which are available in relation to what has happened with the vaccine rollout in the EU are chronicled in the previous 5 pages of this thread. That's a good source for facts. I'm certainly not going to rehash them to aid your digestion.


----------



## Leo

Wahaay said:


> The UK for one.
> Here's the announcement last April.



OK, so what was binding about that agreement?


----------



## Purple

Wahaay said:


> The UK for one.
> Here's the announcement last April.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oxford University announces landmark partnership with AstraZeneca for the development and potential large-scale distribution of COVID-19 vaccine candidate | University of Oxford
> 
> 
> 30 April 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ox.ac.uk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The UK had originally been in discussions with an American pharmaceutical to develop Oxford's vaccine but Health Secretary Matt Hancock, fearful of a Trump grab, specifically chose AZ precisely because they agreed to binding terms on price and delivery.
> Guy Verhofstadt, surprisingly, has been the one prominent EU politician prepared to point the finger of blame.Unsurprisingly there are few here in Ireland willing to do the same.


That was a development contract. The EU and the US governments signed similar contracts with AZ and other producers.


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## Wahaay

Purple said:


> That was a development contract. The EU and the US governments signed similar contracts with AZ and other producers.



Have you read the contracts ?


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## Purple

Wahaay said:


> Have you read the contracts ?


No. Have you?
I did read the link you posted. Did you?


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## Wahaay

Leo said:


> OK, so what was binding about that agreement?



Quite obviously more than the contract the EU signed which is why today the UK has already administered 11 million AZ doses and the EU has ended up looking like chumps on the international stage.
Don't take my word for it. EU fanboy Guy Verhofstadt is your go-to man.


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## Wahaay

Purple said:


> No.


Precisely.
Keep digging.


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## Purple

Wahaay said:


> Precisely.
> Keep digging.


That doesn't make any sense. Please stop with the Bart Simpson answers. It's tiresome.


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## Paul O Mahoney

Wahaay said:


> Have you read the contracts ?


There are no contracts in that link.
And their aren't any contracts in the public domain that are complete. 
How can one read something that isn't there?


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## Purple

Paul O Mahoney said:


> There are no contracts in that link.
> And their aren't any contracts in the public domain that are complete.
> How can one read something that isn't there?


Exactly. The USA, Chine and the EU, along with other smaller countries such as the UK, signed development contracts with Pharma companies to fund the development and production capacity ramp-up of their vaccines.


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## Leo

Wahaay said:


> Quite obviously more than the contract the EU signed which is why today the UK has already administered 11 million AZ doses and the EU has ended up looking like chumps on the international stage.
> Don't take my word for it. EU fanboy Guy Verhofstadt is your go-to man.



Yet you have repeatedly failed to provide any detail on binding terms. You're just jumping to conclusions based on speculation.


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## Wahaay

Leo said:


> Yet you have repeatedly failed to provide any detail on binding terms. You're just jumping to conclusions based on speculation.


If that's the case why has the EU failed to to get sufficient vaccines in while other countries have ?
Verhofstadt has clearly read the contracts and concluded the EU failed to negotiate them properly.
If the EU believe that AZ are liars then take them to court.
Which of course they haven't.
It's bluster and misinformation to cover up incompetency.


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## RedOnion

Leo said:


> Yet you have repeatedly failed to provide any detail on binding terms. You're just jumping to conclusions based on speculation.


Leo, let me help you with this.

I had struggled understanding some posts, but I've been enlightened by this and other threads over the past few days.

Can you accept as fact that the UK (and in particular the English) have handled everything brilliantly, as they always do? And also that our EU overlords are a bunch of failed bureaucrats, who continuously fail at everything?

If you accept these facts, then you'll stop looking for evidence that you don't need.


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## Merowig

Lockdown dealt €2bn hit to construction output in 2020
					

The initial shutdown of the construction sector for seven weeks during the initial stages of the Covid-19 pandemic knocked €2bn off construction output last year.




					www.rte.ie
				



Seems Ireland is the only country in Europe to have constructions shut down. 
Also workers are leaving Ireland so if / when they reopen workers will be missing








						Ireland facing construction skills shortage as workers flee COVID closure
					

Irish builders are leaving the country to find work as the uncertainty over reopening construction continues.




					www.newstalk.com
				




Well done...


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## Purple

Merowig said:


> Lockdown dealt €2bn hit to construction output in 2020
> 
> 
> The initial shutdown of the construction sector for seven weeks during the initial stages of the Covid-19 pandemic knocked €2bn off construction output last year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.rte.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems Ireland is the only country in Europe to have constructions shut down.
> Also workers are leaving Ireland so if / when they reopen workers will be missing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ireland facing construction skills shortage as workers flee COVID closure
> 
> 
> Irish builders are leaving the country to find work as the uncertainty over reopening construction continues.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.newstalk.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well done...


I think we need to open up construction straight away. We probably shouldn't have closed it down at all.


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## Wahaay

RedOnion said:


> Leo, let me help you with this.
> 
> I had struggled understanding some posts, but I've been enlightened by this and other threads over the past few days.
> 
> Can you accept as fact that the UK (and in particular the English) have handled everything brilliantly, as they always do? And also that our EU overlords are a bunch of failed bureaucrats, who continuously fail at everything?
> 
> If you accept these facts, then you'll stop looking for evidence that you don't need.



Now someone finally gets it.
If only our elected leaders would admit the same facts then Ireland might not have been so badly letdown with vaccines. 
Accepting third-rate is almost as contagious as the Kent variant.


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## Purple

Wahaay said:


> Now someone finally gets it.
> If only our elected leaders would admit the same facts then Ireland might not have been so badly letdown with vaccines.
> Accepting third-rate is almost as contagious as the Kent variant.


Yes, I think we are at the crux of it now.
A few of us here seem to have misunderstood what the word fact means. We thought it was something that can be proven to be true. Now we know that facts are, in fact, opinions. 

Thanks for clearing that up.


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## Wahaay

Purple said:


> Yes, I think we are at the crux of it now.
> A few of us here seem to have misunderstood what the word fact means. We thought it was something that can be proven to be true. Now we know that facts are, in fact, opinions.
> 
> Thanks for clearing that up.



Opinions are only facts that someone else doesn't like to hear.


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## Purple

Wahaay said:


> Opinions are only facts that someone else doesn't like to hear.


Ah, okay, that's also very helpful.


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## EasilyAmused

Dr Anthony Staines is calling for the re-closure of schools.


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## Purple

EasilyAmused said:


> Dr Anthony Staines is calling for the re-closure of schools.


A good example of why doctors advise and politicians decide.


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