# balancing the needs of your children and your job.



## Purple (20 Aug 2009)

I think this post;





BONDGIRL said:


> diziet - I am only a new mother and I am trying to juggle life. So its not as easy as you make out.  You say you have kids, did it not take you a while to adjust?
> Maybe in your job, they are more child friendly etc.  when I have to leave a meeting because I get a call to collect my baby I get looks from everyone there... Its a case of "here we go again". Like I am making it up.. I see this with SO MANY women in his company and outside of here too.  Can I say its mostly coming from Men or from Women who dont have kids..  The men do have kids therefore I really dont understand why they make you feel like this..
> You are right I shouldnt feel guilty but I do sometimes, its not that easy to shut off sometiimes.


 in this thread poses some interesting questions; basically should it be ok for people with children to leave work if a problem arises with a child during the working day without it impacting negatively on their career prospects and pay etc.
Speaking as someone with three children, soon to be four, who's wife works full time as well, I see no reason why anyone would think it would not impact negatively on their career. It would be unfair to people with no children if it did not. I get paid to do a job, what my family circumstances are and how many children I choose to have is my own business and not relevant to the value I add in my job. Obviously give and take is a good idea and Dickensian regimental-ism is not conducive to happy and motivated employees but if I bugger off early and/or come in late or leave work during the day for a few hours then this has a negative impact on my job. I see no reason why this should not be taken into account when assessing employees.


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## ney001 (20 Aug 2009)

I have been reading the other thread with interest as well!.  

I would very much agree with Purple assessment on this.  I have no children but expect to in the next couple of years.  I have always worked full time and will continue to do so - money is not the only factor, I really want to continue working as I don't feel that i'd be particularly happy at home all day.  I would expect it to impact greatly on my standing within the company if I was leaving at various times for various child related emergencies and to be honest why shouldn't it affect your career? - you are not as focused on the job and it is simply unfair to think that a child gives you an automatic right to come and go! .  Shoe other foot, if somebody was constantly leaving because they said they were feeling ill, wouldn't you start to doubt them & their commitment to their work?

I had an experience a good few years back with a colleague.  She was quite career motivated then got pregnant - no problem there, took long maternity leave, came back no problems! - The problems arose when she started missing a great deal of time from work, nipping off during the day, home early, in late.  Now, everybody would understand the odd emergency i.e child falls and has to go to hospital etc etc, the problems occur when over protective mother's (as she was) were nipping home when the child had so much as a sniffle! .(we have always had a very relaxed atmosphere here, give and take is quite important)  I understand the need to want to be with your child when child is ill etc but you cannot have it both ways, you cannot be a great mam, there all the time for your child through everything no matter what is going on in work and still have exactly the same career/standing within your company.  It's just not doable and it's not fair on those who don't leave as much and don't take time off all the time!.    

Family factors should not be taken into account in work.   I would like to think that in work I am judged on the hours I put in, the work I do & the commitment I have, if I don't put in the same hours or work as a colleague then shouldn't we be judged differently?.  It doesn't matter whether illness/babies/family issues are the reason you are absent from work a lot - the point is that you are absent from work a lot! .

I think a lot of women get on their high horse and assume that they are being treated differently because they have a baby, this is not always the case, a lot of time you are being treated differently because you are behaving differently and carrying out the job differently.


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## Diziet (20 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> I think this post; in this thread poses some interesting questions; basically should it be ok for people with children to leave work if a problem arises with a child during the working day without it impacting negatively on their career prospects and pay etc.
> Speaking as someone with three children, soon to be four, who's wife works full time as well, I see no reason why anyone would think it would not impact negatively on their career. It would be unfair to people with no children if it did not. I get paid to do a job, what my family circumstances are and how many children I choose to have is my own business and not relevant to the value I add in my job. Obviously give and take is a good idea and Dickensian regimental-ism is not conducive to happy and motivated employees but if I bugger off early and/or come in late or leave work during the day for a few hours then this has a negative impact on my job. I see no reason why this should not be taken into account when assessing employees.



If a parent has to leave work early due to an emergency, then no there should not be an impact. If it happens in an unplanned fashion repeatedly, then inevitably it would.

In my experience sensible employers would be flexible in the case of children being sick etc, but it takes a bit of effort and goodwill from the employee too. Most of the issue is pre-empting and planning. I had a US manager once who planned conference calls to start at 5, which meant that, routinely, people left work after six. Everybody complained, but not to him. When I mentioned it to him he was quite happy to start earlier. So, while it would not be good to leave the meeting early, it was perfectly OK to move the start time.

There is inevitably some juggling to do though, and it is important to have a support network in place. And I generally don't buy the idea that staying for long hours in the office is a good thing. One can work productively in office hours instead of staying late.

PS - of course when I was a new parent it took me a while to adjust. However, I was happy to get back to work, I liked my job and honestly never felt guilty either at work or at home.


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## liaconn (20 Aug 2009)

I agree that there has to be a certain amount of flexibility and give and take in any workplace. Everyone -not just mothers of young children - will occasionally have a crisis at home or an unexpected event which causes them to have to rush off early. I think the problem is that some mothers are tarring all mothers by taking advantage of this flexibility to an unfair degree and really annoying their colleagues. I mean the working mothers who assume that colleagues without children should always be the ones to stay late, travel long distances to meetings, provide cover for bank holiday weekends etc. Most mothers I have worked with don't behave like this, but the ones who do leave a strong impression and can sometimes cause people to start giving out about 'bloody working mothers' as if they're all the same.


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## TheBlock (20 Aug 2009)

Diziet said:


> And I generally don't buy the idea that staying for long hours in the office is a good thing. One can work productively in office hours instead of staying late.


 
I have to agree with this. The amount of employees who will stay in the office late doing nothing but trying to get noticed gets on my wick. If you can't do your job during normalish hours (44 a week) your either not up to it or you've too much work on.


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## huskerdu (20 Aug 2009)

Interesting. 

It is true that your career prospects are based on your hard work and commitment. Therefore, if you are constantly being the one that can't work late to make a deadline or has to take time off at short notice then this will be noticed and taken account of,
by management and work colleagues. 

In my experience, its not just working mothers who do this and its really unfair to point the finger at them only.  I have worked with plenty of people who have been very quick to take time off work for very minor reasons, constantly. 

BTW, Fathers are parents too. Working mothers get a really bad press some time. 

I know plenty of men who refuse to ever leave work 
for any reason related to their children, and of course their wife has to, and her's is the career that suffers.  I also know plenty of men who are happy to take some of the burden. 

Also, I have known people who have struggled through times with sick children, sick parents, bereavement and other personal issues worked really hard to keep up their work commitments. In these cases, 
a workplace and colleagues who are willing to help and willing to be flexible is invaluable. But, if you take advantage of this, it will go away very quickly. 

In short, be nice to your work colleagues, if they have personal issues, you might need their help some day, and don't take advantage.


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## Latrade (20 Aug 2009)

Diziet said:


> If a parent has to leave work early due to an emergency, then no there should not be an impact. If it happens in an unplanned fashion repeatedly, then inevitably it would.


 
Like all things work-related, it's about finding a balance and that's hard to do if strictly legislated for. An extreme example would be a surgeon in the middle of an operation insisting on going home because their child has been taken ill in creche. 

I do wonder what has happened to the family unit out there though. Whether its geographical spread, grandparents enjoying the kid's inheretence or whatever, but an oft used complaint is that there isn't anyone at all who can help out.

Not to use the argument of history...but in my day, the family unit helped out wherever it could. Of course there were emergency situations, but in the main grandparents, aunts, even neighbours stepped in and helped each other out. I'm not even talking that long ago either. 

I've heard several times from employees and individuals that their parents are unwilling to help out even in some emergency situations "because they've done with all that raising children lark."

To counter that I have plenty of friends whereby the parents do help out along with others in the family. But during the old Celtic Tiger, there did seem to be an view of every man for himself.

Blinkered looks to the past aren't that helpful, but both my parents had to work and raise two kids with nothing like the maternity protection there is now. They did it and it wasn't easy. BTW, much to Purple's delight, both are avid Labour supporters, however both would disgree with too much state protection on this issue.

In effect, it absolves the family unit of the responsibilities that come with parentage and shoulders the employer with paying for what is a societal responsibility, not an employers.


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## Purple (20 Aug 2009)

Good post Latrade.

BTW;





Latrade said:


> both are avid Labour supporters,


do they speak to you?


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## liaconn (20 Aug 2009)

Latrade said:


> .
> 
> Not to use the argument of history...but in my day, the family unit helped out wherever it could. Of course there were emergency situations, but in the main grandparents, aunts, even neighbours stepped in and helped each other out. I'm not even talking that long ago either.


 
I agree this would be the ideal, but most neighbours and aunts are out at work themselves nowadays. Grandparents, as you said, often don't live that close by and tend to have much more active lives than our grandparents did. Obviously, they would be prepared to give up a game of bridge or lunch with their friends to help out in a crisis, but don't tend to be 'on call' all the time to collect the kids from school so that their Mum can work late, or hang onto them for the day because they have the sniffles and can't go to creche.


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## Latrade (20 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> Good post Latrade.
> 
> BTW;
> do they speak to you?


 
Just, they tell all their friends I'm a male escort rather than my actual occupation.


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## MandaC (20 Aug 2009)

Agree with Ney001's post on this.  

It is only normal for a persons focus to change after having a baby.  This may sound awful, but there are a number of people in my job who only speak 24/7 about their kids.  Its like once they had children they had their brain removed.  Scary stuff and I avoid them like the plague.  Same people always expect someone else to do the late hours, extra projects, etc, because they have children.  Just because I dont have children, does not mean I dont value my hours outside work and have commitments apart from my job.

I dont think peoples circumstances should really be taken into account and favouritism shown towards people with children.  Employeers should be flexible and fair to all staff.  Have no problem with people leaving for an emergency (we all have them, children or not)


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## Henny Penny (20 Aug 2009)

I think sometimes people are too quick to assume that because you have a family, your job/career is not important to you. 
I work in a small office where I am the only parent. My colleagues are very quick to assume that I am not interested in training/more challenging work because I have "other priorities".
Thankfully I have not been in a position where I need to leave work to attend to my child in an emergency situation. My non-parenting colleagues have however had a myriad of "emergency situations" to attend to.
It's too easy to pigeon hole parents as not being career minded - we are people first and parents second!


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## Purple (20 Aug 2009)

I suppose it’s about priorities; if someone puts their children ahead of their job then that’s fine but they can’t expect the same advancement as someone who puts their job first.


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## batty (21 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> I think this post; in this thread poses some interesting questions; basically should it be ok for people with children to leave work if a problem arises with a child during the working day without it impacting negatively on their career prospects and pay etc.
> Speaking as someone with three children, soon to be four, who's wife works full time as well, I see no reason why anyone would think it would not impact negatively on their career. It would be unfair to people with no children if it did not. I get paid to do a job, what my family circumstances are and how many children I choose to have is my own business and not relevant to the value I add in my job. Obviously give and take is a good idea and Dickensian regimental-ism is not conducive to happy and motivated employees but if I bugger off early and/or come in late or leave work during the day for a few hours then this has a negative impact on my job. I see no reason why this should not be taken into account when assessing employees.


 
+1 This is one of the few times I have ever heard this expressed.

In my last job I worked in a team of 4 Plus boss. The other team mates all had kids (I don't) and constantly did the coming in late leaving early, can't be there today can you attend my meeting. My manager told me that the Company has family friendly policies & I had to "suck it up for the team". As far as I'm concerned team work involves give and take. The others were doing all the taking.

During my time in that job my father suffered terminal cancer and I helped my mother nurse him. For some reason family friendly policies extended only to people with kids and not to dying fathers.

Having said all that I got on very well with with team mates and all nice peoplebut one man in particular was genuinely astonished that I would have a problem with covering for him as he had to take his kid to the dentist/go to sbhool paly/collect him form the creche as it closed at 5.


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## Latrade (21 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> I agree that there has to be a certain amount of flexibility and give and take in any workplace. Everyone -not just mothers of young children - will occasionally have a crisis at home or an unexpected event which causes them to have to rush off early. I think the problem is that some mothers are tarring all mothers by taking advantage of this flexibility to an unfair degree and really annoying their colleagues. I mean the working mothers who assume that colleagues without children should always be the ones to stay late, travel long distances to meetings, provide cover for bank holiday weekends etc. Most mothers I have worked with don't behave like this, but the ones who do leave a strong impression and can sometimes cause people to start giving out about 'bloody working mothers' as if they're all the same.


 
I agree, totally. It's tough raising a family, especially when both parents work. In emergency situations everyone should be understanding and flexible. But what constitutes an emergency? 

The more it is legislated for, the more the problems. And again my point would be whether it is for employers to be given the responsibility of raising a family? I cannot deny there should be flexibility and compassion where it is necessary, but this is between the employer and its employees, not the State and the employer. 

I should also state that this is different to maternity protection legislation, which even with the potential for abuse, I 100% agree with.


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## bren1916 (21 Aug 2009)

Both my wife and I work and have 2 kids under 5.
Although we both have extremely sympathetic and good employers,we don't use our kids as an excuse for time off although either of us may be late the very odd time if something arises.
But if and when our kids are sick we take it in turns to use our annual _*holiday entitlement*_ to stay home and look after them...


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## MandaC (21 Aug 2009)

Worked in a place before that had staggered hours where one girl having returned from Maternity Leave wanted to work all of the early options (which would have left me covering all of the late options)

Boss being a gutless wonder who did not want to rock the boat said he did not have a problem with it, as long as we worked it out between ourselves!

Colleague approached me and I said no, that would not suit me. She believed because I was young, that I could sleep on in the morning and stay later.  That was her reasoning. Said no, wanted as many 9-5 options as I could get, if not, had no problem doing my share, or in an occasional emergency, was more than willing to help out.  No more than my fair share though. Colleague was a bit put out, to say the least and we never had the same relationship again.


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## liaconn (21 Aug 2009)

Like I said it's people who behave like this who, very unfairly, can get all working mothers a bad name in some offices. I worked with a girl who asked the boss if she could work through her lunch break  every day in order to take an hour off to collect her child from school and bring her to the childminder. Boss said no problem. After a couple of days of this she just drifted into the habit of taking a full lunch break anyway and then heading off for an hour to collect her daughter. Colleagues were not impressed but boss was in another room and didn't realise what she was doing.
In fairness, I realise lots of people take advantage and don't pull their weight. But in cases like this, if anyone had complained, they would have been accused of being 'anti-family' or something like that.


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

Bit off point I know but one thing that really annoys me is when colleagues who have children themselves tell me that 'i'll feel differently once I have my own children'.  If I ever express my desire to continue working and the fact that I would not like to be stuck at home with a child I am simply told 'ah but sure that'll all change, you won't want to leave the baby blah blah blah" Perhaps this is true for some and who knows what'll happen to me, but I find it annoying that they say with such conviction that I'll change as if what I am thinking now is wrong! The simple truth is, that of the two of us, my soon to be husband would be much more suited to being with a child all day and would relish that role - I on the other hand would not!   It is not wrong however to know this or think this - just because you are the mother doesn't mean that you naturally want to be with baby 24/7 that you want to give up everything else in order to do so!.


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## MandaC (21 Aug 2009)

Ney, that's exactly what that person said to me......


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

Well MandaC obviously our thinking is wrong here - maybe we will change and you know start taking loads of time off, talking about babies, boring everybody to tears with our photos of babies and looking down on those that don't have children - Can't frickin wait to change!


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

At last I can post 

What have I started LOL!

Just a few points...

Purple - about priorities - I will ALWAYS put my child ahead of my job.  By what I mean from that is, if my child is sick and I can't have another loving family member mind them, I am gone, out of work in a flash...  I mean my job would have to come 2nd most of the time. But I know your point is finding balance really!

MandyC - I agree that would probably wreck your head everyone talking 24-7 about their kids, but its a simply fact of life, their world is probably their kids now and until you have kids yourself, you cant really made judgements on it!  I dont talk about my son all the time, but I probably would about 10times a day mention him or a little funny story! I am probably wrecking their heads!!! ah well I love telling them!

ney001 - I USED TO think like you. I thought NEVER in a million years woudl I stay at home with a child. my Career is my life blah blah blah. Child will be fine in creche 10 hours a day blah blah blah... But by god did my world change when I started bonding with my child and now I am hoping to get out of work and be with him full time, my career will be put on hold, not sure when its going to happen, at the minute we are not in a position but I am hoping for this...!! So you cant say NEVER, until you are there..  However I give 100% to my job when I am here now and I plan with them like I will be here long term but god it would be super to be with him all day.. job Satisfaction from that - well I cant put a figure on it!!!

Bren1916 - I ALSO take ANNUAL LEAVE When my child is sick. I dont not take the mickey and ring in sick myself........  So it doesnt leave ANY days for "ME" like those with no kids get... my days are for him..  (god I am a wonderful mother LOL)!!!!!

But its a great decision and one that I am sure we will argue over a lot...

But having a child has made my life complete in so many ways I cant describe. I hope all posters have that gift someday in their life

xxx


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> .. But by god did my world change when I started bonding with my child and now I am hoping to get out of work and be with him full time, my career will be put on hold, not sure when its going to happen, at the minute we are not in a position but I am hoping for this...!! So you cant say NEVER, until you are there..



Welcome to depths bondgirl - yup this argument pretty much sums up the attitude of every parent when talking to me! 

My point is I guess that the bond doesn't always happen and isn't always as strong as the bond others might fell to their child! . I might well go gaga over the baby and I might not - the point is don't assume that everything changes for every woman once they have a baby, some don't feel that need to be at home 24/7 and some like me don't believe that it would be particularly beneficial for mother or child to have me there all the time! 

It's the assumption that you will automatically love it combined with the patronising tone of my colleagues that gets me!


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## Latrade (21 Aug 2009)

Perhaps the answer is bring back child labour. Hear me out.

1. No creche fees.

2. no need for employees to be absent from work and can free up relatives to also work

3. they'd get paid so we can drop the welfare payments as the child's wage would cancel this out.

4. greater productivity for industry, no need to wait for maintenance to fix or repair things, the kids only have little hands so they can reach into even the most awkward place to clear blockages etc.

5. They'd get fed, so again saving on disposable income and household bills, plus they'd get fed gruel which is nutritious and we'd also solve the obesity problem.

6. They'd be active (see above re obesity problem). Less obesity, less health care costs.

7. More in employment, more PRSI

8. More kids with money, more spending in shops, retail confidence improves, VAT improves. Plus kids will want high end fancy goods like Playstations etc.

9. They'll do a good day's work so will be knackered at night. Less parents late/absent because the kid kept them awake all night.

Makes sense all round.


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## liaconn (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> At last I can post
> 
> What have I started LOL!
> 
> ...


 
Well, I hope none of your colleagues can't have children, for whatever reason. I can't imagine you make them feel any better by saying things like 'my life is complete now' or 'I don't get to take any annual leave for 'me' like people without kids do', or taking the view that because your world is your kids then its okay to talk about them all the time even if people don't want to listen. 

I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but a bit of tact and sensitivity in the workplace is also necessary.


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## MandaC (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> At last I can post
> 
> What have I started LOL!
> 
> ...



Just another point that people d'ont always bear in mind........not everybody wants/can have children.

Sometimes comments along the lines of ....when you have children....whats keeping you, etc, are putting pressure on people who already have issues....but thats a separate topic.....

Good debate though


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> Well, I hope none of your colleagues can't have children, for whatever reason. I can't imagine you make them feel any better by saying things like 'my life is complete now' or 'I don't get to take any annual leave for 'me' like people without kids do', or taking the view that because your world is your kids then its okay to talk about them all the time even if people don't want to listen.
> 
> I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but a bit of tact and sensitivity in the workplace is also necessary.



Yep, don't forget the 'career is my life blah blah blah and my child will be fine in a creche for 10 hours blah blah blah comments!  - 

All a little patronising but I do get that a lot from the mammys! 

LARTRADE - You are a genius!


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## Purple (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> AtPurple - about priorities - I will ALWAYS put my child ahead of my job.  By what I mean from that is, if my child is sick and I can't have another loving family member mind them, I am gone, out of work in a flash...  I mean my job would have to come 2nd most of the time. But I know your point is finding balance really!


 I see no problem with that. I would see a problem if you expected the same career prospects as people who do not have children or do not put their job second most of the time.


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## becky (21 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> Well, I hope none of your colleagues can't have children, for whatever reason. I can't imagine you make them feel any better by saying things like 'my life is complete now' or 'I don't get to take any annual leave for 'me' like people without kids do', or taking the view that because your world is your kids then its okay to talk about them all the time even if people don't want to listen.
> 
> I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but a bit of tact and sensitivity in the workplace is also necessary.


 
I agree. A friend of mine had a baby recently and talks about nothing else. Everyone remarks about it. I honestly don't care how he slept last night but I'm told none the less.

Another friend got over cancer in her late 30's and had to have her womb removed as part of the treatment. 

One night we were all out and the girl with the baby talked all night about the baby giving us progress reports from the babysitter. No amount of hints, trying to change the subject stopped her despite the obvious discomfort of my other friend.


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## Mel (21 Aug 2009)

ney001 said:


> Well MandaC obviously our thinking is wrong here - maybe we will change and you know start taking loads of time off, talking about babies, boring everybody to tears with our photos of babies and looking down on those that don't have children - Can't frickin wait to change!


 
Don't know about looking down on other people, but I could put money on it that you will both do the talking and photos. 

As for taking time off - it's like anything - some people will see it as a great excuse to get out of the office, some people will carry on as ever. 
I doubt if anyone's attitude to their career has ever done a complete U-turn because they suddenly have kids.


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## Latrade (21 Aug 2009)

becky said:


> I agree. A friend of mine had a baby recently and talks about nothing else. Everyone remarks about it. I honestly don't care how he slept last night but I'm told none the less.


 
As someone who generally feels misanthropists aren't extreme enough, I do have to say that really it doesn't bother me. I mean sure I have no interest whatsoever in looking at another picture they've taken on their mobile phone or graphic descriptions of nappy contents, but c'mon they've just a had a kid...a bit of leeway on the old being slightly proud/anamoured.

Heck, I still go on about Liverpool winning the champions league in 2005, my only contribution to that was getting very drunk and texting every single Man United Fan/Evertonian I had ever come across.

While it can be an annoyance and yes occasionally insensitive, I don't think it's that bad. How are they to know an individual can't have kids or doesn't want kids? Are we seriously suggesting we should curb talking about a child for fear of offending someone? Is that how far we've come?


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## Mel (21 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> I see no problem with that. I would see a problem if you expected the same career prospects as people who do not have children or do not put their job second most of the time.


 
What about the balance though? You're assuming that the person who leaves to take care of their kids is putting the job second. Surely your job is there to fund your life, 'work to live', and what can't be done today can be done tomorrow? Maybe I'm lucky to work in a great place where the work-life balance is 100% respected, with the expectation that you are responsible for your own working week, make sure you clock up 39 billable hours and after that you do them on a schedule that pretty much suits you. If that means that I'm at home while my child is sick, it doesn't mean I can't have the laptop out at the same time and get the work completed. Or that I can't stay on later the following day to get the work finished. 
Or delegate to someone else but remain contactable for any questions. 

We have the understanding that emergencies happen for everyone, they can't be planned for, that's why they are called emergenices. Colleagues show concern if a child/parent/dog is unwell or worse, and fingers are never pointed, rather the team pulls together to get over the hump.

I could probably pawn a sick child off on someone else, but what would that achieve? Sit miserably in the office, worrying and only half-concentrating on the job? Far better to deal with the situation and come back ready to do 100%.

Purple, I tend to agree with a lot of your posts, and like some of your attitude to life, the self-reliance and responsibility, but I'd hate to work for you! Not because I'm lazy, far from it, but because everyone needs balance in their life.


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## Purple (21 Aug 2009)

Mel said:


> What about the balance though? You're assuming that the person who leaves to take care of their kids is putting the job second. Surely your job is there to fund your life, 'work to live', and what can't be done today can be done tomorrow? Maybe I'm lucky to work in a great place where the work-life balance is 100% respected, with the expectation that you are responsible for your own working week, make sure you clock up 39 billable hours and after that you do them on a schedule that pretty much suits you. If that means that I'm at home while my child is sick, it doesn't mean I can't have the laptop out at the same time and get the work completed. Or that I can't stay on later the following day to get the work finished.
> Or delegate to someone else but remain contactable for any questions.
> 
> We have the understanding that emergencies happen for everyone, they can't be planned for, that's why they are called emergenices. Colleagues show concern if a child/parent/dog is unwell or worse, and fingers are never pointed, rather the team pulls together to get over the hump.
> ...


 I don't disgaree with any of what you are saying but you are still getting the job done, not dropping everything because a child is sick. I also agree that a team should not be clock-watching when it comes to what others are doing.


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## liaconn (21 Aug 2009)

Latrade said:


> As someone who generally feels misanthropists aren't extreme enough, I do have to say that really it doesn't bother me. I mean sure I have no interest whatsoever in looking at another picture they've taken on their mobile phone or graphic descriptions of nappy contents, but c'mon they've just a had a kid...a bit of leeway on the old being slightly proud/anamoured.
> 
> Heck, I still go on about Liverpool winning the champions league in 2005, my only contribution to that was getting very drunk and texting every single Man United Fan/Evertonian I had ever come across.
> 
> While it can be an annoyance and yes occasionally insensitive, I don't think it's that bad. How are they to know an individual can't have kids or doesn't want kids? Are we seriously suggesting we should curb talking about a child for fear of offending someone? Is that how far we've come?


 
We're not talking about people showing the odd photograph of their child or chatting about them for ten minutes or so, we're talking about people making insensitive remarks like 'your life isn't complete until you've had kids' in front of people who don't have children,or going on and on about parenthood in front of groups of colleagues whose history they don't know. A bit of cop on and tact basically. There's a difference between 'not having any interest in kids' and yearning for a child and not being able to have one. I had thought people had become much more sensitive to that in recent years due to the amount of publicity this issue has got, but maybe not.


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> We're not talking about people showing the odd photograph of their child or chatting about them for ten minutes or so, we're talking about people making insensitive remarks like 'your life isn't complete until you've had kids' in front of people who don't have children,or going on and on about parenthood in front of groups of colleagues whose history they don't know. A bit of cop on and tact basically. There's a difference between 'not having any interest in kids' and yearning for a child and not being able to have one. I had thought people had become much more sensitive to that in recent years due to the amount of publicity this issue has got, but maybe not.



For me I have to say I don't think you should have to shut up about your child for sensitivity reasons I think you should shut up about your child cos it's boring!   As a rule of thumb the only people who don't find your child boring are you and your other half - stick to this and the workplace shall be a happier environment for all!


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

ney001 said:


> It's the assumption that you will automatically love it combined with the patronising tone of my colleagues that gets me!


 
I totally agree with you! No ONe has the right to assume anything in this life, sure I thought when I started trying for a child it would happen over night, it didnt it was a long hard road for us...

I am useless at housework etc so I never ever dreamt I would like being in a house all day, but its about being with him, maybe when the terrible twos come I will have to take this all back up and swallow it!!!


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## Mel (21 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> I don't disgaree with any of what you are saying but you are still getting the job done, not dropping everything because a child is sick.


 
Maybe that's the difference. 
But it's a personal trait in an employee, it's not defined by whether or not you are a 'working mother'. The balance can be difficult; I suppose it still comes to the same conclusion; If I did down tools and swan off without a care, then I couldn't expect a promotion, but I don't so I'd be fairly upset if I was passed over because I occasionally need time to deal with family stuff.


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

Latrade said:


> 4. greater productivity for industry, no need to wait for maintenance to fix or repair things, the kids only have little hands so they can reach into even the most awkward place to clear blockages etc.
> .


 
Ha Ha you are joking right!


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## liaconn (21 Aug 2009)

ney001 said:


> For me I have to say I don't think you should have to shut up about your child for sensitivity reasons I think you should shut up about your child cos it's boring! As a rule of thumb the only people who don't find your child boring are you and your other half - stick to this and the workplace shall be a happier environment for all!


 
  Ah come on. Say what you really think, Ney.


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

Liaconn - WHEN DID I SAY I TELL MY FELLOW EMPLOYEES THAT MY WORLD IS NOW COMPELTE........?
You dont know a thing about me...  I am talking to people here on this forum, telling them how I feel?  I was trying for yrs for a child, went through yrs of treatment to have him... I was in agony day in and day out thinking I could never have a child..  So you do sound VERY harsh, because you are simply making judgements about what I say to my fellow employees............   I deserve happiness and I deserve to say how I feel on this forum.  I would NEVER in my wildest dreams say to any woman or man this and that unless they asked my opinion.  You are going WAY off the subject here and I dont appreciate it.


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## liaconn (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> I totally agree with you! No ONe has the right to assume anything in this life, sure I thought when I started trying for a child it would happen over night, it didnt it was a long hard road for us...


 
Well, then I'm amazed you're not aware that maybe other people at work may be going through the same thing. I do appreciate it must be amazing for you to have got the child you want, and maybe you don't make the same comments to your colleagues as you did on here, but some of them were a bit insensitive.


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

another point from what you said to me "its okay to talk about them all the time even if people don't want to listen".

Do you know what give and take means?  Listen and learn etc...  I dont like listening to football, but I do listen to the men in work most of the day talking about games coming up etc. I show a LOT of interest in it, because do you know why?
Its nice to be nice.......


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

BUT liaconn?  What are you talking about?  Going through what?


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> BUT liaconn?  What are you talking about?  Going through what?



You appear to be giving the impression that you had a bit of difficulty having a baby - Liaconn is simply saying that other's might now be in that unfortunate position and perhaps wouldn't like to hear about your child/children all the time!


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> I dont like listening to football, but I do listen to the men in work most of the day talking about games coming up etc. I show a LOT of interest in it, because do you know why?



Cos it's interesting??


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## Purple (21 Aug 2009)

Mel said:


> But it's a personal trait in an employee, it's not defined by whether or not you are a 'working mother'.



That’s a bit sexist. What about working fathers? They have to get the balance right as well.


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## liaconn (21 Aug 2009)

Trying and not being able to have a child of course.

I don't want to get into a row, all I'm saying is that some people who haven't been able to have children get upset when people talk about their children all the time. Its a fact, whether you like it or not. Also, I have seen a friend of mine close to tears when she reads articles in magazines where celebrities say their life is only complete now that they have a child. It only makes her feel the lack of a child all the more. I just think people should think before they make a remark like this on a forum or anywhere else. You talk about give and take, and listen and learn but when someone says that maybe it would be sensitive to tone it down a bit you come back shouting defensively at them. Anyway, this has gone way way off topic.

Sorry, this reply was to Bondgirl.


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## Mel (21 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> That’s a bit sexist. What about working fathers? They have to get the balance right as well.


 
Absolutely; I just used working mother because that seems to be the gist of this thread.


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

Liaconn... Maybe I shouldnt of said on this forum that my life is now complete with my child, maybe its because I am having a good day thinking about him when I had so many ****ty ones... But if I cant say it on here, when we are talking about work -life balance aboutkids? where can I say it?  This topic was not about Fertility problems or those cant have or trying for kids... It was brought up my me, when I was saying that in work I find it hard to balance everything and sometimes I get evil looks for other managers etc when I have to run to collect my child...  and a lot of posters pointed out I shouldnt feel guilty ,if its what I do. I also meant by taking annual leave to mind Ds, it that I am NOT RIPPing the company off. NOT at a slap in the face of someone who hasnt kids or cant have them....  

Also I NEVER say anything like that to my friends in work... I actually am one of those who never mention my kids much except to those on my team. Those on y team are VERY young men, who are all single and I am sure I bore them to tears about my DS, while they bore me totears about their football stuff but I listen and they do too!!!!!


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

ney001 said:


> Cos it's interesting??


 
eh no!


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

Another thing when I say my life is complete and I really think it is.. My fab DP thinks otherwise, he thinks in a few mths or yrs I will probably want another child and will be going through the same agony all over again.. he is probably right!!! (like most men hes always right )


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## Girlf (21 Aug 2009)

Bondgirl - I think rollercoaster & weddingsonline are the more suitable forums for the 'my fab DP' & DS stuff.


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

Girlf said:


> Bondgirl - I think rollercoaster & weddingsonline are the more suitable forums for the 'my fab DP' & DS stuff.



What's a fab DP & DS??


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## Girlf (21 Aug 2009)

ney001 said:


> What's a fab DP & DS??


 
I could be way off but I think the P is for Partner and the S for Son....so I've drawn my own conclusions on the D being for Darling???? Or some such...

Such is the lingo....Ive way too much time on my hands..


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

Girlf said:


> I could be way off but I think the P is for Partner and the S for Son....so I've drawn my own conclusions on the D being for Darling???? Or some such...
> 
> Such is the lingo....Ive way too much time on my hands..


 

YEs you are right..................

Ah come on give a girl a break can I not call my partner fab or shorten words LOL!

Okey dokey, I am off now from work so everyone have a fun weekend its been nice and no doubt I will be back on Monday to chat !


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> YEs you are right..................
> 
> Ah come on give a girl a break can I not call my partner fab or shorten words LOL!
> 
> Okey dokey, I am off now from work so everyone have a fun weekend its been nice and no doubt I will be back on Monday to chat !



So you're on AAM during working hours as well as nipping off home all the time to mind the child? 

well i'm taking my GS off home to see my fab OH and kiss my DD's as well as my DC's before heading out to dinner with the IL's!


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## liaconn (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> Liaconn... Maybe I shouldnt of said on this forum that my life is now complete with my child, maybe its because I am having a good day thinking about him when I had so many ****ty ones... But if I cant say it on here, when we are talking about work -life balance aboutkids? where can I say it? This topic was not about Fertility problems or those cant have or trying for kids... It was brought up my me, when I was saying that in work I find it hard to balance everything and sometimes I get evil looks for other managers etc when I have to run to collect my child... and a lot of posters pointed out I shouldnt feel guilty ,if its what I do. I also meant by taking annual leave to mind Ds, it that I am NOT RIPPing the company off. NOT at a slap in the face of someone who hasnt kids or cant have them....
> 
> Also I NEVER say anything like that to my friends in work... I actually am one of those who never mention my kids much except to those on my team. Those on y team are VERY young men, who are all single and I am sure I bore them to tears about my DS, while they bore me totears about their football stuff but I listen and they do too!!!!!


 

That's fair enough. I didn't realise you had been through such a difficult struggle and can see your post in a totally different light now. I had just been through a conversation with someone who'd been feeling particularly down about trying to have a baby, so I was probably feeling a bit sensitive when I first read the post.

Anyway, hope the baby's fine. Enjoy your weekend. Just back from having root canal work so hope I will be enjoying my weekend too and not overdosing on neurofen plus!!!!


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## becky (21 Aug 2009)

Latrade said:


> As someone who generally feels misanthropists aren't extreme enough, I do have to say that really it doesn't bother me. I mean sure I have no interest whatsoever in looking at another picture they've taken on their mobile phone or graphic descriptions of nappy contents, but c'mon they've just a had a kid...a bit of leeway on the old being slightly proud/anamoured.
> 
> Heck, I still go on about Liverpool winning the champions league in 2005, my only contribution to that was getting very drunk and texting every single Man United Fan/Evertonian I had ever come across.
> 
> While it can be an annoyance and yes occasionally insensitive, I don't think it's that bad. How are they to know an individual can't have kids or doesn't want kids? Are we seriously suggesting we should curb talking about a child for fear of offending someone? Is that how far we've come?


 
I don't mind an odd bit at all but this particular girl is unreal. You tell her her dress is nice and she proceeds to tell you about the time the child threw up all over it.

Her child is 3 years old btw. 

She also knows our friend was hoping to start a family when she got the news.

No one expects her never to mention the child just not every sentence.


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## Girlf (21 Aug 2009)

ney001 said:


> So you're on AAM during working hours as well as nipping off home all the time to mind the child?
> 
> well i'm taking my GS off home to see my fab OH and kiss my DD's as well as my DC's before heading out to dinner with the IL's!


 
Are we talking about gorgeous self, other half, darling cats & dogs and in-laws?


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## ney001 (21 Aug 2009)

Girlf said:


> Are we talking about gorgeous self, other half, darling cats & dogs and in-laws?



Jeeze you are good! and yes you do have too much time on your hands!


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## Caveat (21 Aug 2009)

I'd be careful with some of these acronyms and when and where they are used.  

They can mean *very *different things in other... eh ...scenarios.


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## Purple (21 Aug 2009)

Caveat said:


> I'd be careful with some of these acronyms and when and where they are used.
> 
> They can mean *very *different things in other... eh ...scenarios.



Indeed, DS could stand for Dip.. never mind.


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## Girlf (21 Aug 2009)

purple said:


> indeed, ds could stand for dip.. Never mind.


 
I could think of a few


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## Caveat (21 Aug 2009)

Latrade said:


> As someone who generally feels misanthropists aren't extreme enough...



  Missed this little gem earlier!


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## AgathaC (21 Aug 2009)

Purple said:


> Indeed, DS could stand for Dip.. never mind.


 Excellent!!


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## MandaC (22 Aug 2009)

If someone started going on about their fab DP and DS or GS whatever, I think I would have to tell them to PFO.

On another note, we did have a person with no children, who went on about his dogs all the time, we would get the updates on their dinner, walkies, (they employed a dog walker) and he even phoned home to "speak" to the dogs on the telephone.  Even our clients used to get it.  Saw him cornering one poor woman at a social and taking out the wallet and going through the photos.  It was hard to keep a straight face if he cornered you, but better than any sitcom if you could observe him from afar with someone else.

When my friend was pregnant, she said, please tell me if my brain turns to mush and I become a baby bore.  I ended up having to take her up on it.  What a laugh we had.


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## Diziet (22 Aug 2009)

It is natural for new parents to focus on their children. And, while it's OK to reply briefly to 'how's the kid doing?' from a colleague, it is not OK to make it the sole focus of conversation. Home is home and work is work. 

I am a parent but I realise that my children are interesting only to me and that other people have their own priorities. And my priority at work is work. I have of course taken time off for minding sick children and have had the odd emergency where things had to be juggled but on the whole I avoided mixing the two and I think it is a good approach. 

Endless conversations about other people's children with all the details about eating patterns, waking patterns, sleeping, nappies etc do not belong to the workplace, in the same way that endless conversations about football don't. It indicates a lack of focus and is unprofessional. Also, in some way, they make it harder for parents to clearly divide the two worlds and contribute to various guilt feelings. Not good.


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## liaconn (22 Aug 2009)

In fairness, I know lots of working mothers who come into work to get a break from talk about kids and nurseries and postman pat and absolutely hate when other Mums try to drag them into 'mammy' conversations all the time. They'd far rather be part of the conversation going on at the other table about the X factor, or the price of petrol, or the Bord Snip report or all the other million and one things going on in the world.


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## Diziet (22 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> In fairness, I know lots of working mothers who come into work to get a break from talk about kids and nurseries and postman pat and absolutely hate when other Mums try to drag them into 'mammy' conversations all the time. They'd far rather be part of the conversation going on at the other table about the X factor, or the price of petrol, or the Bord Snip report or all the other million and one things going on in the world.



Absolutely. Some of us even talk about work occasionally


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## liaconn (22 Aug 2009)

Whaaaaaat?????


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## annR (23 Aug 2009)

liaconn said:


> In fairness, I know lots of working mothers who come into work to get a break from talk about kids and nurseries and postman pat and absolutely hate when other Mums try to drag them into 'mammy' conversations all the time. They'd far rather be part of the conversation going on at the other table about the X factor, or the price of petrol, or the Bord Snip report or all the other million and one things going on in the world.



Thank you Liaconn you have summarised better than I ever could my entire thoughts about this whole thread!  I can't wait to go to work tomorrow morning and I only have one wonderful baby but . .. I need a change, a break.  Sometimes people ask me about her and I just say 'She's fine'. The end.  I have nothing more whatsoever to add unless I say, she's at the creche having a ball and I am so glad someone else is looking after her for a while.  

The funny bit is that I thought I would like to be a stay at home mum.  . .


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## casiopea (24 Aug 2009)

> The funny bit is that I thought I would like to be a stay at home mum. . .



....and Im the exact opposite.  I really thought Id want to work work work - get out and not think about nappies, nappy rash etc.  but it is so tough and to be honest I think I may not be cut out for it.  Bizarre isnt it.  

I have recently changed job after 11 years with the same company and now here I am back at work post maternity leave in a different organisation (too long a story and not relevant as to why I changed), however the team I joined just dont get on.  They bicker.  There is so much political rubbish going on, they all go to lunch together and ignore eachother and glare at eachother (so why go to lunch together).  So I find myself rattling on about my child/their children to fill in the silences.  Crazy I never thought I would be like this.  The silence makes me miserable though, homesick for my daughter and for my old company.  I will start going to lunch on my own with a book but as the new girl I want to be seen putting the effort in to get on with this very difficult team.

Anyways neither here nor there.  Just Im embarassed to find myself rattling on about my little girl at lunchtime when I never thought Id be like this!


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## annR (24 Aug 2009)

Casiopea
It helps that my transition back to work has been fairly easy and the whole thing is not as hard as I thought.  Sounds like you're just not happy in the job, this would probably be the same if you didn't have your baby, you just wouldn't have that aspect to be talking / thinking about!
A


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## Complainer (25 Aug 2009)

casiopea said:


> .however the team I joined just dont get on.  They bicker.  There is so much political rubbish going on, they all go to lunch together and ignore eachother and glare at eachother (so why go to lunch together).  So I find myself rattling on about my child/their children to fill in the silences.  Crazy I never thought I would be like this.  The silence makes me miserable though, homesick for my daughter and for my old company.  I will start going to lunch on my own with a book but as the new girl I want to be seen putting the effort in to get on with this very difficult team.


Just a suggestion - don't start going to lunch on your own, as once you start this, it will be very difficult to break out the habit. You must have made contact with some others in the organisation outside of your own team, so reach out to some of them for the odd 1:1 lunch. Or invite one of your colleagues out for sandwich, just to get to know them a bit better away from the group.


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## Bubbly Scot (27 Aug 2009)

Reading this thread, it seems I'm the only one doing a job with no prospects :-( At the other end of the scale there are people doing the mundane type of jobs like shop assistants (like me) who are just trying to keep the family's heads above water, so to speak. We're not actually on a career path..which is a good job because there isn't one where I work.

 My work are great at accomodating parents. The girls who don't have kids will work Christmas eve so the rest of us can be home with our families. I am not expected to work after 2pm on a school day so I can pick my youngest up from school...although I do have to work a few evenings. If my child is ill..or as happened one day, forgot her lunch so I had to call in and say I'd be late cos I had to go back for it, there isn't a problem. Our boss is a family man and thankfully understands that children are unpredictable.

We don't hear many complaints from the childless collegues but I know one got rightly upset when she agreed to work the christmas eve shift til 10pm because another member of staff absolutely insisted she had to be home with her child that night.........there was no problem whatsoever from the girl who agreed to work as she thought it was right and proper.....and then she discovered that the mother had been in the pub since four pm and left her child at home with a babysitter til gone 11 christmas eve.

Parents at my work do enjoy a certain amount of flexibility but that one parent aside (and she does a lot more to brass people off than that) we don't abuse it. During school holidays I take all the crappy shifts going to give the others a break.


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## BONDGIRL (28 Aug 2009)

hows everyone, sorry I am off work sick this week, and yes I actually am sick...
Just had time to read all over the replies


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