# Supply and delivery of goods across the Border and duty.



## seantheman (8 Sep 2009)

*Following a request for this thread I'm copying some posts from another thread to here to enable discussion on supply and delivery of goods across the Border and duty implications.

Sue Ellen,
Moderator.

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 *


Got a 1000ltr fill today 510euro vat inc. Donegal Oil


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## helllohello (8 Sep 2009)

1000 ltrs 450 e in cullaville on sunday.


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## MaryBe (8 Sep 2009)

helllohello said:


> 1000 ltrs 450 e in cullaville on sunday.


 Does that include delivery? or do you have to haul it yourself?


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## Caveat (8 Sep 2009)

MaryBM said:


> Does that include delivery?



Definitely not if the poster lives in the republic...


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## seantheman (8 Sep 2009)

helllohello said:


> 1000 ltrs 450 e in cullaville on sunday.


 Are you using an ie vat number to get this vat free?


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## helllohello (8 Sep 2009)

no - this price is for collected yourself.


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## seantheman (13 Sep 2009)

Caveat said:


> Definitely not if the poster lives in the republic...


 Just wondered Caveat, Whats the difference between an oil co. from the North delivering kerosene to an address in the South, and a Builders Providers from the six counties delivering goods to the South


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## Caveat (14 Sep 2009)

In a word, duty.


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## seantheman (14 Sep 2009)

Caveat said:


> In a word, duty.


 Sorry,Can you elaborate on the duty maybe using my previous post as an example of how the different goods are treated differently.Does the duty only apply to delivered goods?


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## Caveat (14 Sep 2009)

Keorsene in the UK is not subject to duty but it is in the republic.

Therefore if NI sourced kerosene crosses into the republic it is liable for duty and any such deliveries will attract the interest of customs.

It would be the equivalent of 'importing' a UK car into the republic and not paying VRT.

I'm not sure about the details of other goods and services and how they are treated but I'm guessing most would not be subject to duty and would not be on the radar of the customs.


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## seantheman (17 Sep 2009)

Just to move this discussion away from fuel. I've heard of cases whereby northern builders providers are sending goods down south vat free on the strength of sometimes very dubious vat numbers. anyone heard of similar stories?


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## Caveat (18 Sep 2009)

seantheman said:


> Just to move this discussion away from fuel. I've heard of cases whereby northern builders providers are sending goods down south vat free on the strength of sometimes very dubious vat numbers. anyone heard of similar stories?


 
I haven't heard of this on a large scale, but I'd imagine it goes on all the time.  AFAIK the supplier will be liable for the VAT if the number turns out to be bogus though so I don't understand why they feel the need to do this - the goods in NI are likely to be seen as a bargain anyway.  The removal of VAT shouldn't be a deal breaker I wouldn't think.


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## seantheman (19 Sep 2009)

I heard of a case of a hairdresser who had her own business and was building a dwelling house. Now, it was my understanding that she could buy goods in the north zero rated, using her vat number ONLY IF IT RELATED TO HER BUSINESS. She went to a builders providers in the north and they had no problem supplying her with roofing materials at a cost of €10,000, for her house. This was sent out zero vat rated using her business vat no. Is this allowed?


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## Caveat (19 Sep 2009)

seantheman said:


> I heard of a case of a hairdresser who had her own business and was building a dwelling house.



Dwelling house? A lot might depend on exactly what this is maybe.




> Now, it was my understanding that she could buy goods in the north zero rated, using her vat number ONLY IF IT RELATED TO HER BUSINESS. She went to a builders providers in the north and they had no problem supplying her with roofing materials at a cost of €10,000, for her house. This was sent out zero vat rated using her business vat no. Is this allowed?



The way you present it, it sounds it sounds suspect, yes.

Plenty of loopholes around though.


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## seantheman (19 Sep 2009)

Caveat said:


> Dwelling house? A lot might depend on exactly what this is maybe..


 What i mean is building a house to live in. The business is a purpose built salon located quite a few miles away.
Maybe in an earlier post I didn't explain things too well. when I said iffy vat no's. and Caveat replied saying dodgy vat no's, This isn't what was meant. The numbers used are probably mostly genuine, just not related to the primary business.
The sad part is that with the 6.5% difference in the vat rates between north and south, even if a southern company is say €400 cheaper on a €10,000 quote. The northern company is still cheaper after the respective vat rates are added.


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## Caveat (19 Sep 2009)

Well the simple fact is that VAT Nos are not a licence to import goods VAT free for any and every aspect of your life.

It is a business arrangement only.  It is often "interpreted" to favour domestic as opposed to business use - which is illegal, plain and simple.


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## seantheman (20 Sep 2009)

The thing is thats it's only the border counties (donegal,monaghan,cavan,louth)that are being hung out to dry by the Dublin government on the vat issue. A business in galway or limerick or kildare have only competitors from their own or neighbouring counties to compete against,and on a level vat playing field. A company in cavan gets shafted from across the border even if their goods are cheaper before vat


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## Peter C (21 Sep 2009)

I expect the VAT difference spreads further than the three counties mentioned a retailer in N.I. told me that he is dearer with a lot of products but Southern buyers appeared to believe everything is cheaper there and many who buy from him are buying on impulse.
I am VAT registered and buy from many EU countries including N.I. when a VAT number from a trader in another EU state is used it should be checked before the goods are sent.
The hairderesser may be in for a short sharp shock as VAT in N.I. is looked after by Customs and Excise and they do not like to lose revenue. 
As I understand it to prevent fraud the Irish Revenue are notified of each Inter Europe Transaction, when a VAT audit is carried out the Inspector has all of the information on such purchases and the books must balance !
If it was that easy nobody in business would be buying local (retail or wholesale) the system has checks and balances and when they don't balance the alarm bells ring.
A hairdresser buying €10,000 worth of goods for re-sale will have to explain why they have not recorded the sales figures plus our prevailing rate of VAT.
Revenue will get their piece of the action sooner or later and said hairdresser will have to explain where every penny came from = Complete Audit !


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## seantheman (21 Sep 2009)

Ok Peter, Your post makes perfect sense, but if i'm a sales rep with a northern B/P,what can you clowns down South, with your more expensive vat rates do to stop me from sending goods South on legitimate vat no's.


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## Peter C (22 Sep 2009)

Hi Sean, Absolutely nothing to stop you in fact you are fully entitled to under the E.U free movement of goods laws. 
As a rep its your job to make the sale, if someone produces a VAT number that gets through the system I would not see it as your job to be quoting morals or tax law to your customer, if somebody wants to play games let them, all you are interested in is getting cleared funds before the goods leave your stores.
The fact that it works for the buyer in the short term is none of your concern, when Revenue come knocking looking for the VAT, interest penalties and to carry out a full audit you will have moved on to the next sale all above board.


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## seantheman (22 Sep 2009)

I just think that it's a sad situation when goods are less expensive in the south excluding vat,that Northern B/P can still get sales across the border because of this government's pathetic stance on vat


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