# A (retired) banker's view of why some people can't pay their mortgages



## IsleOfMan (8 Aug 2018)

As a retired banker who first cut his cloth in 1970 I have seen it all. Tricksters with false P60's and Certificates of Income. Making up stories about all the overtime that they could work. Renting out the Boxroom. Not telling us about the Credit Union Loan that they were getting. So happy to take the most expensive House Insurance and Mortgage Protection Policy from us. Anything to get the loan in fact.

Those of us with the experience saw through all of this. Unfortunately a new breed of banker was created in order to cut costs by senior management, who in turn had no banking experience themselves. We the Organ Grinders were relegated to 2nd place.

The new breed couldn't see through the spoof. Loans were given to everyone. Lots of people took advantage of this.

They didn't pay their mortgage but had two new cars in the driveway. Lots of holidays. Plenty of take out meals. Cigarettes.

The new breed of banker couldn't cope but they were all in it together so nobody took the blame. Ran to the hills.


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## cremeegg (8 Aug 2018)

IsleOfMan said:


> The new breed couldn't see through the spoof.



Or they could see through it quite well but did not wish to as every loan issued contributed to their bonus. Any resulting defaults down the line were not their problem. 

Lending in the early 2000s was still superior to the non lending of the 1970s. 

The practices of the 2000s gave us the bust. And hundreds of thousands of new houses. The restrictive lending of the 1970s drove immigration.


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## Delboy (8 Aug 2018)

IsleofMan: You never mentioned the bonuses you and the new breed of banker were earning from all those 'tricksters'.
It takes 2 to tango


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## Sunny (8 Aug 2018)

All very true but lets take a look at AIB for example. It wasn't the 'new breed' of bankers that caused the ICI collapse in the 1980's and left the taxpayers holding the bill. It wasn't the new breed that led to overcharging of FX customers for years with the knowledge of the Central Bank. It wasn't the new breed of bankers that helped with Tax Evasion through the DIRT enquiry and a dodgy offshore company in the British Virgin Islands for the benefit of AIB executives.

I know none of the above has anything to do with mortgage lending but it all comes down to culture. Irish banking was rotten to the core. Excess mortgage lending was the next in a long line of incompetent actions by overpaid banking executives and regulators in this country. It has nothing to do with the mortgage underwriters. Even in your day, you didn't set the underwriting standards or get to decide how much lending was to be done (maybe you were that high up). I am willing to bet that if you had witnessed the exact same economic and credit conditions earlier in your career, you would have been forced to do exactly the same as these 'new breed' of bankers were.

The blame does not sit with people who did the application processing or the applicants themselves. The blame belongs with the people who were being paid very large amounts of money to protect their financial institutions and the financial system. They all failed miserably.


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## mccoypat94 (8 Aug 2018)

The false P60 practice was actively encouraged in the Celtic tiger , 3 different brokers in our case enquired if we could manipulate our P60s as we worked with family businesses..
In my greenness I thought it was an acceptable  practice.
The more broker got for us the more they made, they had absolutely nothing to lose.. they made it appear that they doing us a favour .
Visiting banks in the past year with a view to switching the contrast is stark.. every cent analysed.. no such practice circa 2006


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Aug 2018)

mccoypat94 said:


> The false P60 practice was actively encouraged in the Celtic tiger , 3 different brokers in our case enquired if we could manipulate our P60s as we worked with family businesses..



A friend of mine whose salary I guessed was about €30k borrowed €150k. I was really shocked at the time. She showed me her p60 which showed that she was on €60k which surprised me.  But her employer ran a separate dud payroll system to provide employees with overstated P60s.  BoI refused her as the net amount lodged did not match her P60.  But the broker got her a mortgage with IIB Home Loans/KBC as they were the only lender who did not ask for bank statements at the time. 

So they were all in it together. The borrower for lying about her income. The employer for giving her  a false P60. The broker for identifying the only lender who would give her 5 times her salary and of course, KBC, for allowing themselves to be defrauded. 

Brendan


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

IsleOfMan said:


> As a retired banker who first cut his cloth in 1970 I have seen it all. Tricksters with false P60's and Certificates of Income. Making up stories about all the overtime that they could work. Renting out the Boxroom. Not telling us about the Credit Union Loan that they were getting. So happy to take the most expensive House Insurance and Mortgage Protection Policy from us. Anything to get the loan in fact.
> 
> Those of us with the experience saw through all of this. Unfortunately a new breed of banker was created in order to cut costs by senior management, who in turn had no banking experience themselves. We the Organ Grinders were relegated to 2nd place.
> 
> ...



It was a deliberate policy of the banks to give out money.  The banks were more at fault as they decided to adopt the American originated model of giving people so much credit that they would change the mentality of people to expect to have debt all over the place, to consolidate, to spend their entire lives paying off interest.

During the boom I went to see a banker to borrow for a property.  He was beyond eager to give me money.  Was willing to give me 100% even though I only wanted 90%. I was shocked at how easy it was to borrow compared to before.  They would basically accept any figures.  Anything to get the loan out.  Including offering me a loan instead of a mortgage as it was easier to get 'Dublin' to pass it. That's what I was told. I didn't care as I'd done my figures.  I assumed the man was working on some kind of commission, or target, he was all fired up.  He was some boyo. It was Ulster bank.  I now have that loan at a lower rate than many mortgages. It has to be reviewed every year and when I fixed it about two years ago it was more complicated a procedure than when I borrowed. Including having separate phone calls to my husband and me to 'fix' the rate.    I was amazed at the change in mentality, the carefulness of procedure, the seriousness of the new bankers.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Aug 2018)

Guys, it might be worth going back to the Mortgages Forum around 2005 and 2006.  You will see plenty of examples of borrowers complaining about not being able to get a mortgage.  I remember in particular one borrower at the time claiming discrimination as he had been refused a 100% mortgage. 

I also remember being on Matt Cooper with the MD of permanent tsb and I was arguing against 100% mortgages. My objections were dismissed.  From memory, it subsequently transpired that his predecessor had gone to the Financial Regulator arguing that they should not allow 100% mortgages.  And if they did not ban them, then ptsb would be forced to compete by offering them. The FR said that they would not interfere with the market and so ptsb offered them.

Brendan


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> A friend of mine whose salary I guessed was about €30k borrowed €150k. I was really shocked at the time. She showed me her p60 which showed that she was on €60k which surprised me.  But her employer ran a separate dud payroll system to provide employees with overstated P60s.  BoI refused her as the net amount lodged did not match her P60.  But the broker got her a mortgage with IIB Home Loans/KBC as they were the only lender who did not ask for bank statements at the time.
> 
> So they were all in it together. The borrower for lying about her income. The employer for giving her  a false P60. The broker for identifying the only lender who would give her 5 times her salary and of course, KBC, for allowing themselves to be defrauded.
> 
> Brendan



Ordinary people are going to overborrow if they have money thrown at them. They should be protected from themselves by the banks, the regulators, the Central bank and Government.

This is what I've seen:

False P60's
False accountants declarations of income
No cross checking of income coming into accounts
Pretend figures of rent counting as income
Ignoring Credit Union loans
Completely fictitious income
People being constantly overdrawn
People having their overdrawn limits increased
People having multiple credit cards with different banks
People having their credit card limits increased on a phone call
People being sent cheques of 10K by credit card companies to spend
Borrowing money for somebody else

The latest wheeze is pay day loans.

It is not normal to have an overdraft all the time, to never pay back your credit cards in full (the law here doesn't allow that), to have so many credit cards, to use credit cards to pay loans, to have so many loans that your entire income goes on interest.

No loan should be allowed unless it is cross checked what you can afford based on all your borrowings and income.  This should apply to everything, car loans etc. And you shouldn't be able to buy a car you can't afford just because you want it (another thing we were limited on when we borrowed for our first car here, with income etc required before we'd get the loan).

The regulators and the CB should change back from bad American practise and stamp out things like pay day loans.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

IsleOfMan said:


> As a retired banker who first cut his cloth in 1970 I have seen it all.



What about the cosy monopoly the big two had going with each other?  I won't go inside the door of either after what I saw with my parents having an account in each of those banks. 

And the banks were just as corrupt back then and it was who paid out for AIB.  Have you forgotton that. And the banks letting of Charlie Haughey FF and Garrett Fitzgerald FG. Have you forgotton those 'arrangements'.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Guys, it might be worth going back to the Mortgages Forum around 2005 and 2006.  You will see plenty of examples of borrowers complaining about not being able to get a mortgage.  I remember in particular one borrower at the time claiming discrimination as he had been refused a 100% mortgage.
> 
> I also remember being on Matt Cooper with the MD of permanent tsb and I was arguing against 100% mortgages. My objections were dismissed.  From memory, it subsequently transpired that his predecessor had gone to the Financial Regulator arguing that they should not allow 100% mortgages.  And if they did not ban them, then ptsb would be forced to compete by offering them. The FR said that they would not interfere with the market and so ptsb offered them.
> 
> Brendan



You've reminded me now that they gave out more than 100%.  I think for the stamp duty, the legal fees and furniture.  It was crazy.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> And the banks letting of Charlie Haughey FF and Garrett Fitzgerald FG.



I don't think it's fair to put Garrett in the same category. As far as I know, he borrowed money to invest in Guinness Peat Aviation.  He lost that money. He was effectively insolvent.  He took full responsibility and sold his family home to repay what he could. 

Brendan


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2018)

Brendan Burgess said:


> As far as I know, he borrowed money to invest in Guinness Peat Aviation.


For the good of his health, of course.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Aug 2018)

No, he did so because he was a director and thought it was a very good investment. 

He made a risky investment and he paid the price.  As far as I can recall, there was no element of dishonesty or abuse of power.  He was retired from politics when he made the investment and got whatever writedown he got. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Aug 2018)

You can get some more information here: 

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fitzgerald-had-to-sell-house-to-pay-170000-debt-26101362.html

He was left with £30,000 after selling his home and using most of the proceeds to settle the debt. 

Brendan


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

Was it not a decision by AIB in both men's cases because of politics. Because of power. Because FG or FF were the one's who will ultimately pay off the bankers mistakes.  As we've seen more than once.

In effect no matter how badly behaved the banks are, they know that ultimately the government will bail them out. Again. And Again. 

So it's in a banks interest to demonstate to FG & FF that they will sort things out on a quid pro quo basis.

There is no reason for AIB not to have pursued Garrett for the remainder of the debt.  That they would have done so if it were Brendan Burgess.


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## IsleOfMan (8 Aug 2018)

Just to state that I never opened this thread as a new thread, I was actually responding to the thread. "Would you be prepared to pay higher interest so that people who pay nothing don't get repossessed". Someone decided to open a new thread with my comment.

Based on my comments above I would say that I would not be prepared to pay higher interest as many people chanced their arm and many new breed bankers were happy to let people chance their arm. The present generation should not have to pay extra for other peoples greed.

Back in the day we were on an incremental salary. The banks decided to introduce Performance Related Pay. Many of the old style bankers kept the standards but came under increasing pressure to "perform". Monthly meetings, monthly targets, Top ten branches/bottom ten branches. Everybody could give a loan, even the newbie at the counter.

We could see the spending habits of our customers. We had their cancelled cheques, we could see their Visa card statement. Didn't matter. Up their credit so they could spend more. And customers did.
The crash came and those who partied decided not to pay. The bankers who gave them the loans ran for it. Now today's banker is trying to tidy up the mess and today's borrower are being asked to pay more.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

IsleOfMan said:


> We could see the spending habits of our customers. We had their cancelled cheques, we could see their Visa card statement. Didn't matter. Up their credit so they could spend more. And customers did.
> The crash came and those who partied decided not to pay. The bankers who gave them the loans ran for it. Now today's banker is trying to tidy up the mess and today's borrower are being asked to pay more.



Even though it's not your thread starter your viewpoint is interesting.  Were there a lot of cancelled cheques?  Did you guys not discuss that it was crazy to lend vast sums to people who clearly had a spending problem, a money management problem, a credit problem.  And did ye not think this could not end well?

Do you not think the banks were more to blame than the borrowers.  If you're going to allow twenty year olds to have credit cards and overdrafts it's only going to credit an entire generation that living on credit is the only way to go. 

I had a sibling come back to Ireland during the boom and procured a house and car with no deposit in a matter of months.  I have a friend whose sibling took out 'equity' three times in her home.  (consolidating !)


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> If you're going to allow twenty year olds to have credit cards



I had a credit card at that age, back in the 80s.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> There is no reason for AIB not to have pursued Garrett for the remainder of the debt. That they would have done so if it were Brendan Burgess.



Bronte

Banks cut deals all the time.  They always have and they always will.  They do it for the rich and they do it for the poor. They do it for retired politicians and they do it for retired postmen. 

In the last ten years, over 100,000 mortgages on family homes  have been rescheduled. 

Where there is commercial debt and the borrower engages with the lender, deals are done which usually leave the borrower in their family home.  It's the best way to maximise recovery. 

Sure they could have applied to the courts to have made Garret a bankrupt.  Or they could have applied for an order for possession. But they probably got more by doing a deal than by putting a 70 year old (?) man and his ill wife out on the street. 

Brendan


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

Interesting.  Because banks would put you out on the street as they don't have 'feeling's. Haven't you argued that for those who lost out in the bust.

I'm aware Joan was very ill. But I still think he got a deal because of who he was. 

They could have got possession and also a lot more by going after his state pension.  And I can guarntee you if it was Ms. Bronte it's exactly what they would do.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

T McGibney said:


> I had a credit card at that age, back in the 80s.


Me too, around the age of 18 or 19, via my father.  I used it once, paid him back and that was the end of it.  But none of my peers had credit cards, now there's nobody with at least one !  There's nothing wrong with them if you manage them properly, as in use it for what you can afford it for and repay it every month.  I just love people who tell me they got a great bargain in the sales and then pay 25%+ interest on the credit card debt for it.


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> Me too, around the age of 18 or 19, via my father.  I used it once, paid him back and that was the end of it.  But none of my peers had credit cards, now there's nobody with at least one !  There's nothing wrong with them if you manage them properly, as in use it for what you can afford it for and repay it every month.  I just love people who tell me they got a great bargain in the sales and then pay 25%+ interest on the credit card debt for it.


Back in the day, if you drove a car you pretty much needed a credit card for fear of running out of petrol somewhere where there was no ATM. Debit cards have resolved that particular problem in the meantime.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

You're not making sense to me about the ATM. I always used cash.  And would put like a fiver in my mother's car.  And she never had a credit card ever. Though the bank forced her to get a bank card eventually and she loved looking at the balance in her account on the ATM.  Here it's nearly impossible to purchase petrol with cash.  Which is good as there is no shop to get you buy too much suggary stuff.  It's all the debit card and has been for decades.  And most bills are by bank transfer, or debit card, that's dentists, the plumber, medical bills, etc. I think they're still using cheques in America.

Was it easy for you to get a credit card if you don't mind my asking?  I'm allowed set the limit on my visa card.  I can also set how much I repay.


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## T McGibney (8 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> You're not making sense to me about the ATM.



Sorry I'm lost. A fiver's petrol mightn't get you too far even back then and outside the cities and county towns, there was barely an ATM machine in 3/4s of the country 30 years ago. So if you were driving, you'd need either a permanent cash float or a credit card. I recall having to put £38 of petrol in the car in a single week travelling to/from training courses and it was literally a disaster.



Bronte said:


> Was it easy for you to get a credit card if you don't mind my asking? .



Yes, applied and got it without quibble. I was earning around £3,000 per annum at the time. That's not a typo btw, but  the starting training pay for a trainee chartered accountant.


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## Firefly (8 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> But none of my peers had credit cards, now there's nobody with at least one !



I haven't had a credit card in 14 years


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## Monbretia (8 Aug 2018)

Bronte, many of us in the branches knew it wouldn't end well, it couldn't!  But we weren't the ones making the rules. I remember one couple who weren't earning jointly what I was earning but bar talk of course made them want to buy a BTL like everyone else was doing.  I didn't have one and I could have afforded it more than they could but they fit the lending criteria so wasn't up to me to say no.

I went for a pizza few years ao in a new local restaurant, the proprietor came over to me to say he knew me, I didn't remember him, and that he had spoke to me about a BTL loan many years earlier and I had advised him against it.  He had decided to take my advice at the time and said now himself and his wife were so glad they weren't in trouble like so many of their friends who had jumped on the bandwagon.  He didn't give me a free pizza though!

I remember a visit to Head Office and I was speaking to an older senior lender and he was very concerned about the ways things were going, showed me some beauties of cases that were being approved, he said he had voiced his concern to his superiors and was basically told you know where the door is if you don't like it.


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## IsleOfMan (8 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> Were there a lot of cancelled cheques?


 All negotiated cheques were called "cancelled cheques".
The Old school branch bankers would discuss lending issues. The New school of bankers hadn't a clue. I am talking senior management here. Also those people they promoted in to senior positions who also hadn't a clue.

The rest of us with vast experience as Montbrieta talks about were frozen out.

There was one case of a couple who borrowed to get a new kitchen. Never paid a penny back. I had to chase them. They told me that the kitchen company promised them a sum of money if they let their kitchen be used as a "show" kitchen. The company never sent anyone out to view their kitchen. They never got a fee. They used this as an excuse for not paying back their loan. I was asked to chase these people. I never gave the loan in the first instance. I never found if if the idiot who gave them the loan based their repayments on the basis that they "might" get viewings. I hope not.

Yes there were people in the media who were treated better than others. I remember one RTE individual who used to force credit on his overdraft. This would then be transferred to a Term Loan basis and his overdraft was regularised. It would start all over again and again. In the end there were three term loans and the overdraft was still over it's limit. It took an old school banker with a pair, to bounce one of his cheques for his kid's school fees to put a stop to it.

We had people put working on the counter with no experience because they were cheap. They were accepting cheques payable to Limited Companies to be lodged in to personal accounts. No sooner had we trained these people in, but they left, and were replaced with a new batch.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

T McGibney said:


> Sorry I'm lost. A fiver's petrol mightn't get you too far even back then and outside the cities and county towns, there was barely an ATM machine in 3/4s of the country 30 years ago.



The minimum you could put in at the 24 hour garage was 5 IEP. That's why us kids put in 5.  Late eighties.  And there was a cashier there to take it.  We were only going a couple of miles into and out of town.  Paid around 4K in deposit in the early ninties. Which was a lot of money.  There were pleny of ATM's as it was a city.  But I don't remember using them.  I used to go into Ulster bank and withdraw with a book or the CU which was also a book and before that the post office, another book.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

Firefly how to you pay for things like flights? Do you bring cash to restaurants or maybe you use a debit card?  I get points on the Amex.  Then I get supermarket vouchers and use that for groceries.


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## Monbretia (8 Aug 2018)

I don't have a debit card, use credit card or bank transfer when needed online, cash for day to day.   Had to buy one bank draft this year for a company who took no other option other than that or personal cheque.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

LOL about the kitchen.  Imagine getting a loan in the first place for a kitchen.  My first cooker cost 40 IEP second hand and I bought it from the small ads in the newspaper.  It was bright green too.  Vinal on the floor and my worktop was some kind of chipboard with white coating, like the inside of a cupboard, the tiling from the previous owners was bright orange and they must have been space cadets because the light fitting in the living room was disco lights. The first thing I did was buy 7 new beds, from a man with a truck from cavan for some reason.  The bed bases were covered I think in paper, that can't be right can it. Went straight into the holiday letting business.  Which was hard work but profitable.  My OH slept in the garage, luckily it had a toilet and sink for the summer and I worked for my mother and stayed with her.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

Monbretia said:


> I don't have a debit card, use credit card or bank transfer when needed online, cash for day to day.   Had to buy one bank draft this year for a company who took no other option other than that or personal cheque.



When you say no debit card, you surely have a bank card. How do you pay for groceries?  Tell us another mad banking story Monbretia.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

IsleOfMan said:


> We had people put working on the counter with no experience because they were cheap. They were accepting cheques payable to Limited Companies to be lodged in to personal accounts. No sooner had we trained these people in, but they left, and were replaced with a new batch.



Thank you for confirming that certain people got favourable treatment. My mother used to go drinking with the bank manager on the odd occassion. One of my siblings hopped in the car outside the AIB another time while my mother was inside and turned on her car and went straight into his car.  About 10 years of age. 

I had the misfortune to have to go into BofI last year.  They don't even have a desk anymore, there's a young one stands out in the middle of people milling around and I need private business and I had to sit at a high chair while she went off to photocopy something and had to leave me there.  What was funny was she left the bank stamp right there, there was me thinking that might be handy and what could I use it for !

I was in my bank, the Ulster another time this year, the girl behind the counter was rude, had a t-shirt on and her fingernails were appalling.

It's all so unprofessional now.  The BofI didn't even look like a bank.  So disrespectful to customers.


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## Monbretia (8 Aug 2018)

I have a bog standard ATM card and I pay for groceries with cash 

A kitchen is a reasonable thing to be borrowing for compared to some.   I had a lady who wanted to borrow a thousand pounds for sitting room curtains, this was back a good bit.  I asked her what the hell were they made from, spun gold?  I would expect that sort of money to do the curtains for a whole house back then with some left over.   At that actual time I was not long after building my own house and the curtains were made from sheets by myself, they were damn nice too and I kept them for years.


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

Well my Ulster card is a bank card, but it also has the visa debit on it. Is there a difference.  And the new fangled thing you can scan to pay for low amounts.  I find that idea novel.  Not that I asked for any of this but that's what they sent us.

Today I was amazed my sister said me an electrican bill by email and I was able to pay it directly as it's an electronic invoice. Once paid I could see it was paid, it said credit card so I decided to try with the visa debit and that worked. Much impressed with this.


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## Monbretia (8 Aug 2018)

Yes I have the old type ATM card, it does nothing but withdraw cash at a machine, no fancy facilities and I don't want them either, much easier to budget by keeping it simple.


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## Opus2018 (8 Aug 2018)

Yes, I can recall the difference between 2007 and a few years later.  I remember talking to EBS on a Friday afternoon in 2007 and over the phone they were willing to offer me some 400,000 of a loan!  The multiple was around 4 to 4.2 if I recall correctly.  Fast forward three years and in spite of the recession, I had managed to continue to accrue significant savings and keep my income more or less on track over the time, but the EBS had discovered fiscal repsonsibility in the meantime!! Anyway I well remember being asked had I considered a stress test on the mortgage..  I thought this was hilarious as I would be a very conservative person financially.  Anyway, in the end it doesn't matter they did give the mortgage for the amount that I needed - mortgage was paid off last month, some 18 years ahead of schedule!  I won't be troubling the banks again, that's for sure!


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## Tintagel (8 Aug 2018)

Also as an ex banker I only use cash plus credit card. No ATM card or debit card. CU for the cash, Credit card for the flights and hotels. Although I got caught out abroad recently when asked to pay for my hotel with my credit card on check out, to discover that I had no PIN number. Never needed it before. I assumed that they could over ride it and I could pay based on my signature. I'm sure you can but the person in the hotel said "No".


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

My BIL was in a hotel for Royal Ascot and could not pay the night bar with cash. And he had no credit or debit card.  Himself and the uncle were outraged. 

I was in France before the supermarkets had the pin machines and they swiped my bank card and needed no pin to my amazement.  Also before chip and pin you could as far as I know write down the credit card number and all details and sign it and that would work just as well, particularly if you rang up the CC company and asked was it ok. 

Life and travel has taught me 2 different credit cards and bank cards from 2 countries is very handy. Plus cash out before you leave.


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## Andy836 (8 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> Interesting.  Because banks would put you out on the street as they don't have 'feeling's. Haven't you argued that for those who lost out in the bust.
> 
> I'm aware Joan was very ill. But I still think he got a deal because of who he was.
> 
> They could have got possession and also a lot more by going after his state pension.  And I can guarntee you if it was Ms. Bronte it's exactly what they would do.



They couldn't go after his pension.

Pensions are protected in Bankruptcy. 

How do you have 12,000 posts and not know that?


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## Sunny (8 Aug 2018)

Andy836 said:


> They couldn't go after his pension.
> 
> Pensions are protected in Bankruptcy.
> 
> How do you have 12,000 posts and not know that?



How do you know that and yet not know that there is no need to be ignorant?


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

Andy836 said:


> They couldn't go after his pension.
> 
> Pensions are protected in Bankruptcy.
> 
> How do you have 12,000 posts and not know that?



Bankruptcy at that time would destroy you. Would his pension and house have remained in such a bankruptcy?

If pensions are so protected, then potential bankrupts should put everything into their pensions.

Edit: https://www.pensionslawireland.com/2014/06/12/pensions-and-bankruptcy/


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## Bronte (8 Aug 2018)

Sunny said:


> How do you know that and yet not know that there is no need to be ignorant?



I was glad for Garrett, especually Joan, that they cut a deal, it is not my point though.


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## PaddyBloggit (8 Aug 2018)

Firefly said:


> I haven't had a credit card in 14 years



I can beat that... I've never had a credit card.


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## Bronte (9 Aug 2018)

That's amazing Paddy.  I know a couple of people like that including relations. They get their children to book flights for them etc.


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## RichInSpirit (9 Aug 2018)

Ahhh the days of the Gold Card that came in the post unsolicited.
They gave me 2 of them. They were great.
But alas they took them back and I have no credit card now nor I won't have one in the foreseeable future ☺


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> That's amazing Paddy. I know a couple of people like that including relations. They get their children to book flights for them etc.



Although I wouldn't consider myself old by any means, and I do like to spend to treat myself... I am of the old school that I wait until I have the money saved until I get it.

My mother always made money stretch. She even managed to stretch the small piece of bacon so that we all got numerous slices (she was good at cutting the slices quite thin). My father worked two jobs to bring money into the house (my mother stayed at home).

Other than a mortgage and the odd car loan, I never spent what I didn't have. I still have a mortgage (on a holiday home), main home paid for and no car loans.

I use PayPal or Visa Debit where I can and on the odd occasion I need access to a credit card, I hand the money over to someone who has one and they pay for me, but on the whole, I don't need one and don't see myself having a need for one in the future.


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## Blackrock1 (9 Aug 2018)

im really not sure why posters are correlating credit cards with frivolous spending, or financial negligence. I have a credit card with a large 5 figure limit and i have never paid a cent of interest as i dont ever hold a balance but i find it very useful for paying for things (and the insurance it offers) rather than faffing around withdrawng large sums of cash (with the danger that presents) or getting bank drafts (given that the banks really dont want people coming to branches any more).

Some people do get into trouble with credit cards but the same people would be financially irresponsible one way or the other.


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## PaddyBloggit (9 Aug 2018)

Blackrock1 said:


> im really not sure why posters are correlating credit cards with frivolous spending, or financial negligence.



I, for one, haven't connected credit card use with frivolous spending. In my circumstances, I just never had the need or couldn't be bothered getting one.

I have taken out loans for large puchases and am not adverse to getting credit for such but I was just brought up to have the mentality to save first if I could before I purchased.

Visa Debit suits me perfectly. Two new tyres of the jeep this morning and Visa Debit covered me perfectly.


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## Monbretia (9 Aug 2018)

I've never paid interest on my credit card either in all these years and use it I suppose similarly to the way Paddy does.    I still prefer to keep the credit card over getting a debit card (well old habits really!) as I understand a debit card transaction does not have the same protection as a credit card one.  Don't know the details but often see this issue cropping up on others pages I am on.


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## losttheplot (9 Aug 2018)

Debit card transactions also incur bank charges (unless you have free banking). Credit cards don't. 
I use the Credit card for everything. Contactless is great for small purchases. IvI' never paid interest either.


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## Tintagel (10 Aug 2018)

Many banks can see your transaction history as most purchases will appear on your statement. If on the one hand you are having your daily lattes or Brown Thomas cosmetic purchases or golf club membership and NOT paying your mortgage they will have no sympathy for you, and rightly so.


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## Bronte (10 Aug 2018)

Blackrock1 said:


> im really not sure why posters are correlating credit cards with frivolous spending, or financial negligence. I have a credit card with a large 5 figure limit and i have never paid a cent of interest as i dont ever hold a balance but i find it very useful for paying for things (and the insurance it offers) rather than faffing around withdrawng large sums of cash (with the danger that presents) or getting bank drafts (given that the banks really dont want people coming to branches any more).
> 
> Some people do get into trouble with credit cards but the same people would be financially irresponsible one way or the other.



I don't see a credit card as anything other than a necessity.  But we know from AAM and elsewhere that many people being to be financially irresponsible when they get a credit card.  And it's a deliberate policy as far as I'm concerned by banks to give cards to people that will never manage it correctly. Whatever percentage of the public that will be responsible, they are subsidised by those that are irresponsible. 

As an example, my bank here would not let me pay the full balance monthly, only 5 or 10 % could be by direct debit, so every month I had to remember to pay it back as I have no intenion of paying interest.  But the government here decided this kind of carry was to be disallowed and now my bank allows me to repay by direct debit the full amount.


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## Bronte (10 Aug 2018)

Monbretia said:


> I've never paid interest on my credit card either in all these years and use it I suppose similarly to the way Paddy does.    I still prefer to keep the credit card over getting a debit card (well old habits really!) as I understand a debit card transaction does not have the same protection as a credit card one.  Don't know the details but often see this issue cropping up on others pages I am on.



This is a very important point.  And it's much easier to fight as a customer if you paid with a Credit card.  As you said this comes up all the time, on shows like Joe Duffy.


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## tallpaul (10 Aug 2018)

Monbretia said:


> I still prefer to keep the credit card over getting a debit card (well old habits really!) as I understand a debit card transaction does not have the same protection as a credit card one.  Don't know the details but often see this issue cropping up on others pages I am on.



This is a very common misconception which is totally incorrect. Exact same protection using a credit OR debit card.

http://www.*****************.com/protection-when-buying-with-debit-or-credit-cards.html


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## RedOnion (10 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> This is a very important point.  And it's much easier to fight as a customer if you paid with a Credit card.  As you said this comes up all the time, on shows like Joe Duffy.


This is a common misconception.

To the best of my knowledge, there's no additional legal protection in Ireland for using a Credit vs Debit card.

There are scheme rules, from Visa & MasterCard, but they apply equally to Debit and Credit cards. This was different back in the day of Laser cards which was a closed system operated by the Irish Banks.

There are different legal protections in the UK (Section 75 of consumer credit act. the bank is jointly liable for undelivered or faulty goods as they are advancing credit) so you will find lots of differences in UK consumer forums.

There are some credit card products available here that automatically include travel insurance, which provides cover for cancelled flights for example.

Edit: crossed posts with @tallpaul


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## tallpaul (10 Aug 2018)

Sorry RedOnion!! I would just add that a chargeback on a credit card might be slightly less stressful than with a debit card as with the latter one is looking to get money BACK rather than having the charge cancelled on a credit card (depending on CC bill timing of course).


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## Blackrock1 (10 Aug 2018)

Bronte said:


> so every month I had to remember to pay it back as I have no intenion of paying interest.  B



not that big an ask for someone who manages their money tho is it?


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## Monbretia (10 Aug 2018)

I can't remember the context in which I read about the credit card/debit card difference,  definitely re something that had been cancelled lately and people were trying to get their money back, must see if I can find it.


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## AlbacoreA (10 Aug 2018)

How did we get from mortgages to credit cards?


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## Monbretia (10 Aug 2018)

It all relates to managing your budget I suppose


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## odyssey06 (10 Aug 2018)

This will be repeated soon on BBC Radio 4 extra, presented by Clive Anderson:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/6142666/What-became-of-the-Bank-Manager.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00mgz1m


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## Leper (11 Aug 2018)

I've come late to this thread, but I have read every post and to be honest many questions I had were answered. I've had a parallel life to Isle-of-Man though at the other end. I started working as a junior public servant in 1970 and retired as a junior public servant in early 2018.  While I had a fairly varied existence I was always aware that someday I would have to acquire a mortgage. 
1. Irish Permanent, EBS, AIB, BoI informed me that I would have first to build up a kind of Credit Rating by weekly savings.
2. The future Mrs Lep and Lep worked all the overtime that could be sourced. 
3. I should point out that the Blushing Bride back then was seldom older than 26 and marriages were often blessed by God to 21 year olds and younger. Those were the days where the bride and mother-of-the-bride cried themselves through the Wedding Mass.
4. Two years into mortgage hunting (exhausted from overtime and scrimping) I was informed I had a snowball's chance in hell of buying a house. 
5. I took on a part-time job. Mrs Lep typed "on the side" for anybody who needed typing.
6. We amassed the equivalent of what was then a fortune of banked cash.
7. Various building society managers advertised on television to "drop in for a chat" some banks had a queue for mortgages. We now qualified to be in the queue for a mortgage from one of the banks. The queue would be for about a year. Inflation was rampant; house prices were racing ahead.
8. Eventually, the bank wanted our P60's, details of everything else financial and could give us a mortgage of two thirds the price of the house. But, it would make available to us a Bridging Load while we were waiting for our mortgage to be approved. The mortgage was to be 20 years duration but the Bridging effectively made it 21 years. 
9. The house had to be painted in its entirety on the inside and outside. If we took in a paying guest the lending rate would be higher. 

We had to jump through more hoops than a circus dog. The interest rate went up and up and believe it or not it reached 19.75% for some time. There were times when literally my monthly mortgage payment was more than I was earning. I kid you not.

Jump to 2004/2005 the same bank wanted me to remortgage, buy a foreign pad, update both our cars. Forget about P60's. Forget about all other financial matters. While I am bereft of financial savvy we didn't update our cars as I believe buying a new car is the equivalent of flushing hard cash down the toilet. We did buy a holiday home abroad though (well covered in other threads by me). It was not a good investment, but now is appearing to have been not as bad as it appeared five years ago.

Isle-of-Man, tells a good story. Stories like his and mine will appear time and time again. Great reading here and in Sunday newspapers, but the criminal bank managers and assistant bank managers were never taken to task. They are walking around now retired, loaded, smug and with an air of "we did great." The proceeds of crime are being taken from crime-gang people but nobody other than a few here are baying for the former bank "ve vas just carrying out orders" people to answer for their crimes.


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## Sunny (13 Aug 2018)

Leper said:


> Isle-of-Man, tells a good story. Stories like his and mine will appear time and time again. Great reading here and in Sunday newspapers, but the criminal bank managers and assistant bank managers were never taken to task. They are walking around now retired, loaded, smug and with an air of "we did great." The proceeds of crime are being taken from crime-gang people but nobody other than a few here are baying for the former bank "ve vas just carrying out orders" people to answer for their crimes.



No offence but a bit rich coming from a civil servant. Can you tell me how many junior/mid/senior servants have paid with their jobs or 'made answer for their crimes' considering some of the incompetence we have seen within the civil service over the past few decades. Oh wait, it is always the Ministers fault. We were just following government policy. Ve Vas just carrying out orders. Condemning individual bankers at manager and assistant manager level for being more concerned about individual performance targets than the health of the financial system is ridiculous. Just like condemning civil servants for things like buying an piece of agricultural land in North Dublin for nearly €30m to build a super prison when the land now is worth about €3m. I don't remember any civil servants being publically vilified for decisions like that. Maybe consider that next time you are throwing labels like 'criminal' around. Banking culture and ethical behaviour were found to be severely deficient but lack of accountability is not exclusive to the banking sectors.


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## Bronte (13 Aug 2018)

Lever that’s gas they would charge you a higher rate if you had a tenant.


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## seamless (13 Aug 2018)

Sunny said:


> No offence but a bit rich coming from a civil servant. Can you tell me how many junior/mid/senior servants have paid with their jobs or 'made answer for their crimes' considering some of the incompetence we have seen within the civil service over the past few decades. Oh wait, it is always the Ministers fault. We were just following government policy. Ve Vas just carrying out orders. Condemning individual bankers at manager and assistant manager level for being more concerned about individual performance targets than the health of the financial system is ridiculous. Just like condemning civil servants for things like buying an piece of agricultural land in North Dublin for nearly €30m to build a super prison when the land now is worth about €3m. I don't remember any civil servants being publically vilified for decisions like that. Maybe consider that next time you are throwing labels like 'criminal' around. Banking culture and ethical behaviour were found to be severely deficient but lack of accountability is not exclusive to the banking sectors.



Patrick Neary - a civil servant - certainly didn't pay with his. In fact, we paid him a golden handshake of 630K and an annual pension of 143K.
It is illuminating to re-read the transcripts of the Dail banking inquiry when seeking to apportion blame...


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## Sophrosyne (13 Aug 2018)

Leper said:


> We had to jump through more hoops than a circus dog. The interest rate went up and up and believe it or not it reached 19.75% for some time.



This takes me back to our first attempt to acquire a mortgage in the 70s, when we practically had to prove we didn't need one in order to obtain one.


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