# The feud(s) in Limerick



## The_Banker (9 Apr 2008)

With the gang feuding in Limerick going from bad to worse I was a bit taken aback by calls by senior Gardai on national newspapers this morning appealing for the gangs to step back from the brink. Indeed one solicitor has offered to mediate between the gangs.
Surely in a civilised society there should be no dealing or offers to mediate with people who have no respect for law and order or indeed the lives of people.
Offers to mediate between these people is only conferring on them some sort of legitimacy. Lets say the mediation works and they stop killing each other? Surely then their resources will be directed towards profiting from drug dealing and other crime.

To my mind, resources should be used to put these people out of business once and for all. If it takes putting the army into the area and imposing curfews or some form of marshal law then so be it. Enough is enough.


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## pc7 (9 Apr 2008)

they should get Timmy and Jimmy from Southpark to mediate like they did with the Bloods and the Crips!


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## truthseeker (9 Apr 2008)

The_Banker said:


> With the gang feuding in Limerick going from bad to worse I was a bit taken aback by calls by senior Gardai on national newspapers this morning appealing for the gangs to step back from the brink. Indeed one solicitor has offered to mediate between the gangs.
> Surely in a civilised society there should be no dealing or offers to mediate with people who have no respect for law and order or indeed the lives of people.
> Offers to mediate between these people is only conferring on them some sort of legitimacy. Lets say the mediation works and they stop killing each other? Surely then their resources will be directed towards profiting from drug dealing and other crime.
> 
> To my mind, resources should be used to put these people out of business once and for all. If it takes putting the army into the area and imposing curfews or some form of marshal law then so be it. Enough is enough.


 
Agreed.


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## DavyJones (9 Apr 2008)

Guessing none of the above actually live in Limerick. And bringing an army into other parts of the country worked a treat, oh hang on, it was a disaster!


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## Sunny (9 Apr 2008)

The people involved in this wouldn't give a damn if the army was deployed. The gardai emergency response unit are hardly teddy bears and yet people are still walking around shooting each other.

I agree that something needs to be done. If it requires temporary draconian legislation that will have human right groups protesting on the streets, so be it. Do you think the US would have room in Guantanamo for a few more? We can stick a few on the next rendition flight leaving Shannon.


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## The_Banker (9 Apr 2008)

DavyJones said:


> Guessing none of the above actually live in Limerick. And bringing an army into other parts of the country worked a treat, oh hang on, it was a disaster!


 
Can it be any worse than what is happening now? Gangs below the control of law and order.
While I agree the introduction of the army may be a step too far in many peoples minds my central point was that these thugs should not get official sanction to mediate with one another.


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## DavyJones (9 Apr 2008)

The_Banker said:


> Can it be any worse than what is happening now? Gangs below the control of law and order.
> While I agree the introduction of the army may be a step too far in many peoples minds my central point was that these thugs should not get official sanction to mediate with one another.


 
Could it be worse, absolutely. Thankfully we haven't had a case yet where an innocent bystander has been killed for being in the wrong  place at the wrong time like that young plumber was robbed of his life for nothing more than being there. Although it's a matter of time before something like that happens in Limerick.
I belive if differances can be settled through peaceful means and doesn't involve infringements to society as a whole. then that can't be a bad thing.


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## Betsy Og (9 Apr 2008)

Well I dont think a militaristic response is totally unfeasible/uncalled for.

A series of checkpoints at the entrances/throughout to the 5 main "hotspots" (Southill, Ballinacurra Weston, St. Marys, Moyross & Garryowen) with regular foot patrols in these areas should keep things under wraps.

I think our army is more likely to be too soft than trigger happy so I wouldnt have any fears.

Whether checkpoints and patrols are manned by soldiers or armed gardai makes no odds to me.

IMHO the fact that all guards are not yet armed is a joke - this aint frugal Ireland anymore, parts of Limerick are like South Central LA/South Bronx  - how would the cops there like to be unarmed?? And we wonder why guards wont get out of the car?


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## mf1 (9 Apr 2008)

The situation is entirely out of control. When that happens, you should look at all the available mechanisms to see what, if anything, can be done to resolve the situation. One possibility is to bring in the militia but as Davy Jones says : "And bringing an army into other parts of the country worked a treat, oh hang on, it was a disaster! ". A.N. Other alternative is the mediation route.  

When I look at 18 year olds being shot dead and buried in a shallow grave I grieve for them and their lost childhood. Yes - they are thugs, but they are children who have grown up in a relentless spiral of unemployment, social deprivation, gangland warfare etc.,etc. Military rule is not going to work. What is more likley to work is social change of conditions.

I remember the Governor of  Mountjoy saying that 90% of the inmates came from X number of postal codes. Go figure. 

"Surely in a civilised society there should be no dealing or offers to mediate with people who have no respect for law and order or indeed the lives of people."

Northern Ireland, anyone? Though I'm still to be convinced that the ghettoes of Catholic and Protestant are crumbling towards resolution of differences.

mf


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## pc7 (9 Apr 2008)

well said mf1,


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## z104 (9 Apr 2008)

Stop the revolving door for a start- I know there will be some judges,solicitors/barristers gasping at the prospect of not having enough work to invoice to keep them in the lifestyle they're become accustomed to but if they gave longer sentences and had sentences running consecutively instead of concurrently. There should be one sentance and jail term for each offence. 

It's organized crime- The cab should be in asking how these "settled" criminals can afford expensive cars/homes with no obvious income. 

And if all else fails, could they not put them on the rendition flight that lands in Shannon each week. A stint in Guantanamo would be a possible solution... I'd gladly turn my back for a few weeks to allow the guards to round them up.


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## stir crazy (9 Apr 2008)

The_Banker said:


> With the gang feuding in Limerick going from bad to worse I was a bit taken aback by calls by senior Gardai on national newspapers this morning appealing for the gangs to step back from the brink. Indeed one solicitor has offered to mediate between the gangs.
> Surely in a civilised society there should be no dealing or offers to mediate with people who have no respect for law and order or indeed the lives of people.
> Offers to mediate between these people is only conferring on them some sort of legitimacy. Lets say the mediation works and they stop killing each other? Surely then their resources will be directed towards profiting from drug dealing and other crime.
> 
> To my mind, resources should be used to put these people out of business once and for all. If it takes putting the army into the area and imposing curfews or some form of marshal law then so be it. Enough is enough.




I agree with this. To those who say it wont work and point to the North etc, I have to say the North was a political problem. Limerick is a criminal problem with those criminals having absolutely no political support from the decent and threatened law abiding families who have to live next to them in the affected areas. You wont find any scumbag, innocent murdering, bullying,  swaggering  deathdrugdealing criminal going on a hunger strike and giving his life for his principles. Will you ? What principles do they have except 'me fein' ?


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## Simeon (9 Apr 2008)

Do these young tearaways have (responsible) parents? The guards do very little in containing such behaviour. A soundbite from their PR or from the local minister is the order of the day. I'm sure that most citizens of that embattled city would love to have the crimnals behind bars, rather than hear the local top brass witter on about about the great and brave work that these guardians of the public do. How did it get to this situation? Poor policing policy. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Sunny (10 Apr 2008)

Simeon said:


> Do these young tearaways have (responsible) parents? The guards do very little in containing such behaviour. A soundbite from their PR or from the local minister is the order of the day. I'm sure that most citizens of that embattled city would love to have the crimnals behind bars, rather than hear the local top brass witter on about about the great and brave work that these guardians of the public do. How did it get to this situation? Poor policing policy. Correct me if I'm wrong.


 
Thats harsh. You just can't just blame the guards for this. Over 50 members of the families involved are in jail so its not as if they are sitting around doing nothing. What hope do guards have when 13 year old boys are walking around armed wearing bullet proof vests? What are they supposed to do with him?

The guards put their lives on the line every day knowing that these people would shoot them as soon as look at them. Witnesses have been intimidated. Communities have been silenced. Look at the faces of the people convicted of murder. They couldn't give a damn. You can't successfully police an area like this using current legislation. It is time that this government fought back like they have done in the past by introducing CAB atc after Veronica Guerins murder. There are social issues that need to be addressed but there is no point building beautiful new estates if the criminal element has not been dealt with.


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## Betsy Og (10 Apr 2008)

mf1 said:


> Yes - they are thugs, but they are children who have grown up in a relentless spiral of unemployment, social deprivation, gangland warfare etc.,etc. Military rule is not going to work. What is more likley to work is social change of conditions.
> 
> I remember the Governor of Mountjoy saying that 90% of the inmates came from X number of postal codes. Go figure. mf


 
I can see your point but we should beware taking it too far and giving people a free run - the trouble with most people these days is the lack of personal responsibility for anything. Everything is someone elses fault.

There has been plenty of jobs going in Dell which people could have done if they had a mind, but they'd rather draw the dole (unskilled jobs but basically available to any ablebodied person who was willing to do it).

I think the idea of "social contract" has to be brought in - we (the State) will support you with welfare as long as you dont prove yourself to be a willing burden on the State (i.e. a career criminal). Why should we put money in the pockets of confirmed and unrepentent scumbags?? The greatest "carrot" known to man is being put on the table in Limerick (the entire regeneration of neighbourhoods) but I think we need to introduce a selection of sticks to incentivise people to "tow the line".


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## room305 (10 Apr 2008)

mf1 said:


> I remember the Governor of Mountjoy saying that 90% of the inmates came from X number of postal codes. Go figure.


 
Are you suggesting that crime is fairly evenly spread across all Dublin postcodes but it is the bias from the Gardai/judiciary sees those from 'certain' postcodes more likely to be arrested/convicted?

Do tell more about this fabulous conspiracy theory.


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## mf1 (10 Apr 2008)

room305 said:


> Are you suggesting that crime is fairly evenly spread across all Dublin postcodes but it is the bias from the Gardai/judiciary sees those from 'certain' postcodes more likely to be arrested/convicted?
> 
> Do tell more about this fabulous conspiracy theory.



If you look at my post:

"What is more likely to work is social change of conditions."

I don't think there is any argument with the idea that social deprivation, exposure to petty  crime from an early age and long term unemployment is more likely to lead to a life less fortunate with a consequent unfortunate slide into criminal activity. I don't think I've suggested that "it is the bias from the Gardai/judiciary sees those from 'certain' postcodes more likely to be arrested/convicted?". Crime is less of a problem in middle class areas than areas of social deprivation. Maybe because families/parents are more likely to deal with the issue.

mf


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## room305 (10 Apr 2008)

mf1 said:


> I don't think there is any argument with the idea that social deprivation, exposure to petty crime from an early age and long term unemployment is more likely to lead to a life less fortunate with a consequent unfortunate slide into criminal activity.


 
So your point was :

"The greatest proportion of people in jail hail from areas where the greatest proportion of crimes are committed".

What is unusual about that?


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## mf1 (10 Apr 2008)

When I look at 18 year olds being shot dead and buried in a shallow grave I grieve for them and their lost childhood. Yes - they are thugs, but they are children who have grown up in a relentless spiral of unemployment, social deprivation, gangland warfare etc.,etc. Military rule is not going to work. What is more likely to work is social change of conditions.


I repeat.

Fix the  social problems. At, admittedly, enormous cost.

mf


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## Flax (11 Apr 2008)

We should bring in a three strikes rule. I would not mind if more of my tax money was spent on prisons, with the net result being the scum are taken out of society.

Dublin is full of scum. I live in the city centre and they're everywhere. These people have no respect for anything and they just go through life causing problems. Being kind and gentle to these people does not work. They only understand their way of life (violence, suffering) and as we (thankfully) cannot dish out violent punishment in this country, the alternative should be to take them out of society altogether.


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## room305 (11 Apr 2008)

mf1 said:


> Fix the social problems. At, admittedly, enormous cost.


 
Fix things how? Money is not the answer.


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## ubiquitous (11 Apr 2008)

posted in error


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## ubiquitous (11 Apr 2008)

Flax said:


> We should bring in a three strikes rule. I would not mind if more of my tax money was spent on prisons, with the net result being the scum are taken out of society.
> 
> Dublin is full of scum. I live in the city centre and they're everywhere. These people have no respect for anything and they just go through life causing problems. Being kind and gentle to these people does not work. They only understand their way of life (violence, suffering) and as we (thankfully) cannot dish out violent punishment in this country, the alternative should be to take them out of society altogether.



In other words, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!...especially 20 minutes after coming home from the pub


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## Duke of Marmalade (11 Apr 2008)

Belfast used to be full of murder, intimidation, extortion, tribal violence etc. Yesterday we celebrated the 10 year anniversary of the ending of all that.

Brian Cowen has a great opportunity to emulate that success. He should appoint one of the Limerick gang leaders as Tanaiste. Get rid of your woman Harney and give health to another gang leader and then a few junior ministeries to the other gangs. And of course he should invite the gangs to have representatives overseeing the Gardai.


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## ubiquitous (11 Apr 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Belfast used to be full of murder, intimidation, extortion, tribal violence etc. Yesterday we celebrated the 10 year anniversary of the ending of all that.
> 
> Brian Cowen has a great opportunity to emulate that success. He should appoint one of the Limerick gang leaders as Tanaiste. Get rid of your woman Harney and give health to another gang leader and then a few junior ministeries to the other gangs. And of course he should invite the gangs to have representatives overseeing the Gardai.



 

This morning's BBC NI news

"Man treated for gun shots to legs"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7341823.stm


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## Purple (11 Apr 2008)

Harchibald said:


> Belfast used to be full of murder, intimidation, extortion, tribal violence etc. Yesterday we celebrated the 10 year anniversary of the ending of all that.
> 
> Brian Cowen has a great opportunity to emulate that success. He should appoint one of the Limerick gang leaders as Tanaiste. Get rid of your woman Harney and give health to another gang leader and then a few junior ministeries to the other gangs. And of course he should invite the gangs to have representatives overseeing the Gardai.


 Excellent.


Undoubtedly the social issues have to be addressed, and with the redevelopment of parts of Limerick it is being addressed, but the punishment for breaking the law has to be applied as legislated for. 
While we have overcrowded prisons and judges who ignore the law the problem will continue. So we either have to let more people out of prison or build more and we have to find a way to get judges to interpret the law as the legislature intended while maintaining in independence of the judiciary.


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## Simeon (11 Apr 2008)

Sunny said:


> Thats harsh. You just can't just blame the guards for this. Over 50 members of the families involved are in jail so its not as if they are sitting around doing nothing. What hope do guards have when 13 year old boys are walking around armed wearing bullet proof vests? What are they supposed to do with him?
> 
> The guards put their lives on the line every day knowing that these people would shoot them as soon as look at them. Witnesses have been intimidated. Communities have been silenced. Look at the faces of the people convicted of murder. They couldn't give a damn. You can't successfully police an area like this using current legislation. It is time that this government fought back like they have done in the past by introducing CAB atc after Veronica Guerins murder. There are social issues that need to be addressed but there is no point building beautiful new estates if the criminal element has not been dealt with.


What I meant to infer was that if this type of behaviour was nipped in the bud .............. ! When it was heading out of control ....... it could have been fronted. Now that it is out of control, and the media are having a field day ...... a few more pious platitudes from the local minister and yet another public relations job from the boys in blue. Now, if only you could have got them to display the same degree of enthusiasm in volunteering to patrol difficult areas as they do when they are volunteering for uniform duty at GAA/Soccer/Rugby matches, we might have started to get a grip on things.


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## The_Banker (16 Apr 2008)

Taken from www.utvlive.com With things like this happening, surely the criminals have won. 

A County Limerick gang which organised mob support through a website forced the cancellation of a football match last week due to fears of
violence. 
Gardai were called to the game between Kilteely and Caherconlish last Thursday night after the referee expressed a view that it was unsafe to go ahead with the fixture.
A group calling themselves the Caherconlish Taliban allegedly posted a message on their webpage encouraging people to turn up at the Under 18`s match in Kilteely to cause trouble. 
More than 20 young men, some armed with hurleys arrived at the football fixture and the intimidating atmosphere lead the referee to call off the game.
The teams did not leave the dressing rooms and the gardai were called but say the crowd had dispersed by the time they arrived.
A GAA spokesperson points out that the gang was made up of people who have nothing to do with Gaelic Games and said all the players were disappointed the game could not go ahead.
Local Councillors have expressed concern about the use of a social networking website to organise this type of troublemaking.


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## elefantfresh (16 Apr 2008)

Some craic at Inchicore last night by all accounts - loads of cops at it. Daft to have it on so late.


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## Betsy Og (16 Apr 2008)

The_Banker said:


> Taken from www.utvlive.com With things like this happening, surely the criminals have won.
> 
> A County Limerick gang which organised mob support through a website forced the cancellation of a football match last week due to fears of
> violence.
> ...


 
Is this a ****-take?, how would something as minor as this make it on to UTV live - havent heard it locally even.


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## DavyJones (16 Apr 2008)

Its sad, but true, heard it on live 95fm a few days ago. the Caherconlish Taliban, come on give me a break! Muppets.


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## Brianne (17 Apr 2008)

As a person who was brought up in Limk, it really annoys me when I hear about all the social deprivation that supposedly caused this situation. Of course it goes without saying that some kids get little chance in life. However the housing in those areas was good enough for lots of decent people who brought up good families and it  had more green space and facilities than many nearby private estates. What has happened was allowed happen, by the then corporation, the Gardai and the system in general. Some of the schools in those areas are very well supported by the Dept of Ed and if fact have much more resources than more middle class schools. 
However if the parents are allowed to get away with not sending kids to school what hope have the children? This is a major problem despite the big increase in school attendance officers.
Jail sentences for not sending children to school, curtailment of benefit and serious penalties for neglect of their children, in conjunction with support for those in need is one way to go. 
The drug gangs are criminals and mandatory sentencing by the judges and confiscation by CAB of illegal assets is the only way forward. Remember it is not fashionable to say this but in my opinion it is true;there are families out there for whom crime is a career choice ,they belong to generations of criminals who think it is much easier to be a hard man in a gang and deal drugs than sit your backside down and work hard at school to get a job. Limk has had great employment over several years and great educational facilities for anyone wishing to better themselves. The poor people who are doing their best and trying to live beside these SC.....are the ones in need of our help.


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## annR (17 Apr 2008)

Well said Brianne.

On one hand I think, well what are parents supposed to do with their kids who are out of control, but of course isn't it the case that this is a family business.  The kids have no chance to have a normal life and by the time they get into all this they're scum.  How do you break that cycle?  Make the crime career choice less attractive by making things really bad for them while providing plenty of support for kids and other family members to go a different way.

I'm sure the cops now are working hard but I think that in the past,  neglect and leaving these people to their own devices must have brought us to this point.


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## Betsy Og (17 Apr 2008)

Here here Brianne


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## Purple (17 Apr 2008)

Well said Brianne (add me to the list)


annR said:


> Well said Brianne.
> 
> On one hand I think, well what are parents supposed to do with their kids who are out of control, but of course isn't it the case that this is a family business.  The kids have no chance to have a normal life and by the time they get into all this they're scum.  How do you break that cycle?  Make the crime career choice less attractive by making things really bad for them while providing plenty of support for kids and other family members to go a different way.
> 
> I'm sure the cops now are working hard but I think that in the past,  neglect and leaving these people to their own devices must have brought us to this point.


 Good points annR.
When I hear parents say that their 14 year old is out of control I ask myself where those parents were when the kid was 5.


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## Caveat (17 Apr 2008)

Brianne said:


> The poor people who are doing their best and trying to live beside these SC.....are the ones in need of our help.


 
I'm also in agreement with your post Brianne.

The above quoted is particularly relevant I think - not because it's necessarily the most important point, but because it's so rarely said.


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## room305 (17 Apr 2008)

Brianne said:


> However the housing in those areas was good enough for lots of decent people who brought up good families and it had more green space and facilities than many nearby private estates.


 
Good post. Friends visiting from slightly more affluent environs frequently express amazement about the amount of greenspace in my area. Now if only they could convince some of the locals not to use those spaces as rubbish tips ...



Purple said:


> When I hear parents say that their 14 year old is out of control I ask myself where those parents were when the kid was 5.


 
Indeed. I can already identify what kids are headed for a life of crime in my locality just by observing how little effort is put into their upbringing by their parents.


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## MrMan (18 Apr 2008)

Just on a slightly differnet note, what are the non-limerick posters views on what Limerick is really like? If I wasn't living here from what I've read I wouldn't go within a mile of the place. It's sounds like a poverty ridden, criminal haven cesspit that needs the army to control its 'gangs'. 

Believe it or not people are being murdered, drugs are being dealt and thugs are getting out of control right across the country. Limerick sounds great for the 'crime writers' and they make there money out of making an area look seedy and desperate, but the reality is different. If anything we are feeding the simple minded egos by describing them as 'crime godfathers' and the like


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## Purple (18 Apr 2008)

MrMan said:


> Just on a slightly differnet note, what are the non-limerick posters views on what Limerick is really like? If I wasn't living here from what I've read I wouldn't go within a mile of the place. It's sounds like a poverty ridden, criminal haven cesspit that needs the army to control its 'gangs'.
> 
> Believe it or not people are being murdered, drugs are being dealt and thugs are getting out of control right across the country. Limerick sounds great for the 'crime writers' and they make there money out of making an area look seedy and desperate, but the reality is different. If anything we are feeding the simple minded egos by describing them as 'crime godfathers' and the like


I haven't been in Limerick in years but I wouldn't think that's it's any different from any other big town.


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## Betsy Og (18 Apr 2008)

MrMan said:


> Just on a slightly differnet note, what are the non-limerick posters views on what Limerick is really like?


 
My own view on this, as a current Limerick county resident, city worker & non Limerick countyman, is that Limericks image problem is twofold:

1) It doesnt have a counter balancing image - even if Galway was in mayhem everyone would say, "ok but theres still the craic, Shop Street & the rest", Cork - Peoples Republic vibe, good nightlife, big sports image, Dublin - capital city, the green & grafton st, big sports events & concerts, tourist hotbed ....... & the Limerick - crime and ................. jeez ........ oh yeah, rugby.  So its not nationally known for enough good reasons to offset the bad bits.

2) The meeejah report everything as "Limerick", whereas in Dublin they dont say a scanger was shot in Dublin, they say he was shot in the Blanch, Ballyfermah, Ballybough, Darndale, Tallaght .... I could go on !!. So until they start reporting where crime happens in Limerick city and everyone in the country gets to know Southhill/O'Malley Park, Moyross, St. Mary's Park/The Island field .... again, sadly I could go on!, everyone will only hear "Limerick" repeatedly and understandably come to the conclusion that its an awful kip. 

The downside is that you further stigmatise area, but F 'em, why should they drag the whole city down.


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## MrMan (18 Apr 2008)

Betsy Óg, never thought of the first point, makes loads of sense and your 2nd point too, I think we need some decent PR.


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## Simeon (18 Apr 2008)

How come that the local boys in blue did not see this in it's infancy? Surely this could have been averted or deflected. If the local guards are supposed to know their patch .......... then the powers that be have really left the law abiding citizens down. There's very little intelligence gathering ...... and the price paid for it (allowing grasses to operate with impunity) is too large. How about giving the Army boys some of the guards overtime and let them do the biz.


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## ajapale (18 Apr 2008)

Betsy Og said:


> .... Limericks image problem is twofold:
> 
> 1) It doesnt have a counter balancing image
> 
> 2) The meeejah report everything as "Limerick", whereas in Dublin they dont say a scanger was shot in Dublin,,,,



Interesting (and perhaps accurate points) BO!

I originally heard these exact points in the early to mid eighties when Limerick was suffering from the same _"image"_ problem (stab city etc)

My view is that the problem is far deeper and systemic than mere image and media treatment. If Limerick had got to grips with the real problem in the 70's 80's rather than blaming image and media I think she would be in a better position today.


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## Simeon (18 Apr 2008)

Well said Ajapale. About time some straight talking was done by politicians. But then, they wouldn't get the votes of these gurriers ......... who now have a large tranch at the ballot box.


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## z104 (19 Apr 2008)

And as somebody else wrote earlier. These criminals are having their egos inflated by the media bigging them up.


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## MrMan (21 Apr 2008)

> My view is that the problem is far deeper and systemic than mere image and media treatment. If Limerick had got to grips with the real problem in the 70's 80's rather than blaming image and media I think she would be in a better position today.



Again this post would make it sound like Limerick is a time bomb, that crime is on every corner. Its a city with city problems. The reason I say the problem is image based is that it costantly gets a hammering as being a city torn between the feuding gangs as if all the innocents are caught in the middle. The reality is so different from the portrayed image that so many people outside of the city hear and read about that it damages the image and identity of a bustling city. 



> Well said Ajapale. About time some straight talking was done by politicians. But then, they wouldn't get the votes of these gurriers ......... who now have a large tranch at the ballot box.


I wouldn't think any politician is depending on the votes of 'gurriers'. Right across the country criminals have taken a huge step forward as to how violent they have become and how little they respect life, the laws of the land will have to change accordingly. We do need much stiffer punishments and assessment of the prison system needs to be undertaken. The regular feedback of prisoners on mobiles, dealing drugs etc in prison is depressing and needs to be really looked at. 

My friends brother had been in and out of prison for best part of 25 years up to 7 years at a time and it never phased him to go back. Last time he was out I said how does it feel to be back and he said 'cold'. The prison was nice and warm. If theres no fear of prison whats the deterrant?


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