# Never have money



## nomonnofun (24 Jun 2008)

Age: early 30s
Spouse’s/Partner's age: early 30s

Annual gross income from employment or profession: 60K
Annual gross income of spouse: 4,600

Type of employment: private sector

In general are you spending more than you earn or are you saving? Just about keeping the heads above water.

Rough estimate of value of home 230,000
Amount outstanding on your mortgage: 180,000
*What interest rate are you paying?* 5.47%

Other borrowings – car loans/personal loans etc|
car loan 10K
credit union 9K
Credit card 1,300
Overdraft 1,600

Do you pay off your full credit card balance each month? No
If not, what is the balance on your credit card? 1300

Savings and investments: 3,500 in credit union

Do you have a pension scheme? yes

Do you own any investment or other property? no

Ages of children: 2 children, both under 9

Life insurance: yes


*What specific question do you have or what issues are of concern to you? *
By the time ESB, SKY, Credit Union, Mortgage, Home Heating Oil, Diesel for car, mobile bill, landline and broadband bill, car insurance, car tax, TV licience, shopping etc are all paid there is no money left for "living". Neither of us socialise (I haven't been in a pub since last Nov), we can't afford a holiday, new clothes etc, etc...
I know we could save some money by getting out Sky and broadband, but they are probably the only 2 "luxuries" that we have at the moment.
I suppose the question is this: are many people living like this? 
We are only living from payday to payday and can never save money. 
I suppose it would make me feel better if I knew loads of people were living like this. 
I sometimes wonder would we be better off selling the home, giving up work and letting the state provide for us (I know loads of people living like this and they go to the pub every weekend, smoke, have their fancy cars and holidays every year - more luck to them, but it's very hard to stomach when you work hard to get a decent wage and can't afford anything)...


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## tester1 (24 Jun 2008)

I'm not an expert in this field ie not an accountant or that.
But from looking at it from a basic point of view could your wife get higher paid employment. You say both the kids are under 9 so Im assuming they are school going age. So there should  be some job out there that pays more than 4600. 
Maybe your wife would consider minding children in the home, I think you can earn up to 10k tax free. Someone will probably correct me on that. 
What sky package do you I have, can you reduce it somewhat.. I understand what you are saying that its one of your few luxuries but if going without for a few months will get you in a better position it will be worth it. 
You should sit down with your wife and make a money diary ie all your incomings and outgoings, this will help focus you. 
You need to get rid of credit card debt and then bin it.
You could consider upping credit union loan and paying off credit card...but only do this if you intend on binning it.


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## eileen alana (24 Jun 2008)

Is the figure 4,600 a typing mistake?


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## deew (24 Jun 2008)

nomonnofun, Could you tell me how the people you know whom are on social welfare manage to pay for all the outgoings you have (apart from morgage?,)and add on the smoking ,drinking and holidays and Fancy cars.
What social welfare are they claiming?.
Could you enlighten us as to how they get that much money.
Or is it the reality that those on social welfare may like you find life quite tight ? I also know people on welfare however unlike the people you know ,they are finding life difficult and live on a very limited amount.They do not go to the pub every weekend or drive fancy cars. It wont improve your situation to try to undermine others .If you fancy living in an area ,,which is not your choice ,live in an a house that is not yours,live on very little income and you honestly believe that your life would be greatly improved and will gain the fancy cars,holidays,pub outings,etc then my advice would be go for it.
Rgds
deew


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## annR (24 Jun 2008)

Have you sat down and looked at these to see where you could economise?  Do you need the landline?  If you have broadband would you consider some sort of VOIP package?  Where do you shop?

>>ESB, SKY, Credit Union, Mortgage, Home Heating Oil, Diesel for car, mobile bill, landline and broadband bill, car insurance, car tax, TV licience, shopping <<

Can you shop around for a better mortgage rate?


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## ClubMan (24 Jun 2008)

nomonnofun said:


> I sometimes wonder would we be better off selling the home, giving up work and letting the state provide for us (I know loads of people living like this and they go to the pub every weekend, smoke, have their fancy cars and holidays every year - more luck to them, but it's very hard to stomach when you work hard to get a decent wage and can't afford anything)...


Please post off topic rants in _Letting Off Steam_.

You have significant unsecured debts. What caused you to live beyond your means and run these up? What is your plan for paying these off? Many people manage because they simply budget and live within their means rather than off credit. This may mean compromising on certain luxuries and discretionary purchases and economising on essential purchases. There are numerous threads and key posts on how to maintain a spending diary, how to cut costs, how to draw up a budget and stick to it etc. etc. MABS can also help if necessary. One option might be to roll the unsecured debt into your mortgage over a similar term to the existing unsecured loans thereby reducing the monthly outgoings on loan repayments and the total cost of credit. However this should only be considered if there is no other way to clear the debts, you do it as a once off measure to restructure your finances, you don't simply rack up further unsecured debt thereafter and the cost savings are clear and justify this approach.


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## irishlinks (24 Jun 2008)

We used to be like that - money going out and nothing much to show for it. You need to try track exactly where the money is going each month. It might seem a bit over the top - but for 2 or 3 months keep a record of all your spending . Record what you spend on clothes, food, drink,entertainment, cosmetics, newspapers,magazines, etc. etc. Keep all receipts and go through them. Try and account for every euro you are spending. It will be a bit of a pain - and it might cause some arguments about who spends what . You might get a shock when you see where the money is going. Once you see what you are spending it on you can try and change it - but you will have to keep tracking the spending for a while to prove you have changed.
Short term - pay off the credit card with your savings straight away. Try not to use the credit card unless you really have to (i.e booking tickets online etc) . It just makes it too easy to spend money you haven't got . 
Looking at the  longer term - you could get a lower rat
You can get lots of freeview  channels on Sky  even after you cancel it (BBC1,2,3,4 ITV1,2,3,4 and a few others) try it for a month or two and you might not even miss the other channels. 
Landline and broadband: - try getting a cheaper package .  Perlico have one for unlimited calls to landlines , line rental and broadband for 39.99 a month. Don't use your landline to call mobiles much - they all charge massive rates.

Looking at the  longer term - you could get a lower rate on your mortgage (4.8%  from NIB) - but it could cost you maybe 1k in legal fees up front to switch. You would save about 70 euro a month - so it would be a year before you made any savings.


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## Welfarite (24 Jun 2008)

I suspect, from reading your post, that you have not a notion about budgeting or where your money is going. I say this because you do not say how much you pay every month in mortgage, CCs, bills, etc.. Until you tell us that, we cqan onl;y speculate as to where your going wrong! Stop looking at others and wondering how they manage and start looking at yourselves! Start a diary (as already suggested), do a budget sheet, write everything down (even just for afew weeks) until you can actually see where the money is going. Be honest with yourself adn then you will be able to make an informed decision on what you can sacrifice to make life much easier. I'll bet if you do this properly, you will even be able to save a few euro each week!

You have an income of 1250 per week for two adults and two kids to live on (not counting CB and EC payment!). Many people live quailty lives on less.


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## Mpsox (24 Jun 2008)

I may not have an exact figure, but you should be getting around €4k a year on top of this for childrens allowance(unless this is your wifes income).

Your debt position isn't great but it could also be far worse and I am presuming you are making regular payments on this so it is reducing

You should start with yoyr tax position to see if you are making maximum use of you and your wives tax free allowances and that you are claiming everything you should be claiming

You should take a look at your bills and investigate to see if you are using the best provider. for example, are you on the most cost efficient broadband and phone tarifs.

there are other things you can do, taking a sandwich to work instead of buying one can save you hundreds a year
However you do need to take a long hard look at what you are spending money on

In terms of shopping, take a long hard look at what you are buying and depending on where you live, it may be worth your while making a trip to Newry or somewhere else in NI and stocking up on non perishable goods such as washing powder etc. also nothing wrong with Aldi/Lidl fruit and veg


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## so-crates (24 Jun 2008)

nomonnofun said:


> I suppose the question is this: are many people living like this?


Unfortunately the answer is probably yes. I'll bet you admit to it no more than anyone else does.



nomonnofun said:


> We are only living from payday to payday and can never save money.


The best way (maybe the only way sometimes) to save is to take the money for savings out first. It should be before your Sky+ etc. rather than whatever is left at the end of the month.



nomonnofun said:


> I suppose it would make me feel better if I knew loads of people were living like this.


Not for very long. What does knowing that other people struggle give to you? Does it put you in a better position? No, it doesn't. Well take heart. Struggling with cash is not unusual and it certainly isn't new. Take a look through this forum and see how many other people are also struggling, many are far worse off than you.



nomonnofun said:


> I sometimes wonder would we be better off selling the home, giving up work and letting the state provide for us (I know loads of people living like this and they go to the pub every weekend, smoke, have their fancy cars and holidays every year - more luck to them, but it's very hard to stomach when you work hard to get a decent wage and can't afford anything)...


Don't generalise and don't be fooled. It is far easier to spend money than it is to save it. I suspect that there are far fewer people lording it on welfare than you think. You are feeling sorry for yourself. Frustrated perhaps and a bit angry with yourself that you can't seem to see an end to being in debt. 
Well it takes a short time to get there and it takes a longer time to get out. Start doing things for yourself rather than looking around and wishing. 

Same advice as everyone else. 
Spending diary first - it surprises everyone once they start looking long and hard at what they spend money on. Focus the money you free up on debt clearance.
Secondly look at each of your outgoings and decide are the really and truly needed. Be severe. Luxury you can't afford is only a burden not a joy.
Thirdly look at your debt profile, identify the high cost debts and dispose of them first as fast as you can. Draw up a long term plan with a view to being debt free in a period of time (exclude mortgage for the moment). Work out how much you need to pay each month to achieve that.
Once you aren't servicing debt you free up your income to do other things. Then you can start saving and re-introducing luxuries in an affordable fashion.


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## tink (24 Jun 2008)

Hi, agree with above posts re not enough detail and spending diary, but what will obviously help your situation is if your spouse earns some decent money ! You say both your kids are under 9 which sounds like they could possibly be in school and your wife could at least get a part time job for around 15k or so ...
Are you getting best value for money on broadband and phone line? We don't have a landline as we find our mobile deals cheaper and partner gets his paid for by his company. Do you combine your grocery shop with cheaper options such as lidl? I do two shops one in lidl and one in tesco to get the best value, use dublinwaste.ie instead of buying all new appliances etc. ... all the little things add up to save a few pennies to put towards a pint !


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## nomonnofun (24 Jun 2008)

Thanks for all the replies, was in bad form last night, feeling in much better form tonight!
We are keeping a spending diary for the last month or so. 
One of the big suprises was the amount of money spent on trips to the local shop for small stuff (e.g. do the lotto and end up spending 10-15 euro on other crap). 
The CB should be added to the income alright. The missus minds a child a few days a week as well so thats where her income comes from (we made a decision to have a stay at home mother for the kids). 
I think we are on the road to recovery as we have really cut back on non-essential items, just need to crack down even more on these. 

I was generalising about the folks on social welfare, however I know quite a few couples living together claiming lone parents allowance, the man is drawing the dole while working cash jobs - it's none of my business I know, but it is frustrating when I think that my taxes are supporting them (I know this is a discussion for another thread).

Anyway, thanks again for the advise, I know there are folks much worse off than us, especially in the current economic climate and we probably should be glad that we are able to pay our bills (just about) each month...


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## ClubMan (24 Jun 2008)

nomonnofun said:


> I know quite a few couples living together claiming lone parents allowance, the man is drawing the dole while working cash jobs - it's none of my business I know, but it is frustrating when I think that my taxes are supporting them (I know this is a discussion for another thread).


If you have grounds to suspect, or more simply *know*, that welfare fraud is being perpetrated then it is your business and your responsibility to report it rather than just moaning about it! On the other hand it may be possible that you don't have the full facts and that the people in question are simply legitimately claiming benefits/allowances/other payments to which they are entitled regardless of their other/overall circumstances.


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## nomonnofun (24 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> If you have grounds to suspect, or more simply *know*, that welfare fraud is being perpetrated then it is your business and your responsibility to report it rather than just moaning about it! On the other hand it may be possible that you don't have the full facts and that the people in question are simply legitimately claiming benefits/allowances/other payments to which they are entitled regardless of their other/overall circumstances.


 
I know for a *fact *at least three couples doing this (don't know how common this is in other parts of the country, but it seems to be the done thing around here). 
As regards reporting it, I thought about it, but didn't (maybe because I didn't want to bring hardship on them). 
If I was to go around reporting everyone I know drawing dole and working, claiming LPA while living with partners, etc then I would be kept busy every week...


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## ClubMan (24 Jun 2008)

nomonnofun said:


> I know for a *fact *at least three couples doing this (don't know how common this is in other parts of the country, but it seems to be the done thing around here).
> As regards reporting it, I thought about it, but didn't (maybe because I didn't want to bring hardship on them).
> If I was to go around reporting everyone I know drawing dole and working, claiming LPA while living with partners, etc then I would be kept busy every week...


Then it's a bit pointless moaning about it and the fact that your taxes are funding it isn't it? 


> I know for a *fact *at least three couples doing this
> 
> ...
> 
> If I was to go around reporting everyone I know drawing dole and working, claiming LPA while living with partners, etc then I would be kept busy every week...


Well - which is it? Three couples or (many) more?


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## nomonnofun (24 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Then it's a bit pointless moaning about it and the fact that your taxes are funding it isn't it?
> 
> Well - which is it? Three couples or (many) more?


 
It's good to vent now and again. I felt much better after "moaning" about it, so it wasn't pointless at all. 

I am certain of three, but suspect a lot more. I neither have the time nor the inclination to investigate these people, that's someone elses job.


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## ClubMan (24 Jun 2008)

nomonnofun said:


> I am certain of three, but suspect a lot more. I neither have the time nor the inclination to investigate these people, that's someone elses job.


You don't have to investigate anything. Just report known or suspected cases of welfare fraud. But if the alleged wastage of your taxes is not "frustrating" or "hard to stomach" enough for you to actually take any action other than moaning about it then why bother mentioning it in the first place?


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## nomonnofun (24 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> You don't have to investigate anything. Just report known or suspected cases of welfare fraud. But if the alleged wastage of your taxes is not "frustrating" or "hard to stomach" enough for you to actually take any action other than moaning about it then why bother mentioning it in the first place?


 
Like I said, it's good to vent (and I was in a bad mood last night). 
Is there a website for reporting suspected cases?


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## Guest117 (24 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> If you have grounds to suspect, or more simply *know*, that welfare fraud is being perpetrated then it is your business and your responsibility to report it rather than just moaning about it!


 

Clubman - have you ever reported anyone to social welfare or indeed to revenue or other gov body ?

Generally ( rightly or wrongly ) this kind of thing is not very vell thought of in Ireland and therefore it is difficult to do


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## SarahMc (24 Jun 2008)

nomonnofun said:


> I suppose the question is this: are many people living like this?


Yes, absolutely

It is all a question of attitude, and if your username is indicitive of your attitude, that is where you are going wrong.

I raise a family on quite a bit less than your income, same mortgage..different attitude.

I know where my money goes.  Broadband yes, Sky no. Frugal shopping, picnics, duchas card and oldish car yes, car loan, begrudgery or welfare hotline no.


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## ClubMan (24 Jun 2008)

badge55 said:


> Clubman - have you ever reported anyone to social welfare or indeed to revenue or other gov body ?
> 
> Generally ( rightly or wrongly ) this kind of thing is not very vell thought of in Ireland and therefore it is difficult to do


No offence but that's none of your business.


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## Guest117 (25 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> No offence but that's none of your business.


 

No shock at this reply from you clubman - No offence

The correct answer to my question should have been one of the following

1 No I have never reported anyone as I do not know anyone who is in breach of social welfare law or tax law - ( Nobody would believe this )

or

2 Yes I have reported people and will continue to do so - ( this, unfortunately, in Ireland makes you a snitch )

So to answer my question " Have you ever reported anyone to social welfare, the revenue or indeed any govt body ? " was a LOSE LOSE for you


Maybe you will think next time before you preach to someone about moaning instead of reporting people to welfare


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## mathepac (25 Jun 2008)

nomonnofun said:


> ...The missus minds a child a few days a week as well so thats where her income comes from...


Is it safe to assume, after all the discourse about alleged / suspected  welfare fraudsters, that this €4,600 annual income gets returned for taxation by the Revenue?

Or am I doing "The missus" a dis-service and in reality this is her net income from running a properly registered, inspected, insured and regulated child-minding business in the home?


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## nomonnofun (25 Jun 2008)

SarahMc said:


> Yes, absolutely
> 
> It is all a question of attitude, and if your username is indicitive of your attitude, that is where you are going wrong.
> 
> ...


 
Attitude? What has my username got to do with anything? 
How can you make any assumptions based on a user name?
The only differences between your list and mine are Sky (I can't get RTE here with an ordinary aeriel) and you have an oldish car (I need a good car as I commute to work in it (no public transport or car pooling available, houses too expensive to move closer to work). 

Begrudgery - absolutely not. As I've already stated I was feeling frustrated when I posted the original post. 
You obviously didn't read all the thread as post 14 clearly proves that I don't begrudge anyone. 
I also don't know the welfare hotline no (I didn't even know it existed) and clearly have no urge to report anyone (again read post 14).



mathepac said:


> Is it safe to assume, after all the discourse about alleged / suspected welfare fraudsters, that this €4,600 annual income gets returned for taxation by the Revenue?
> 
> Or am I doing "The missus" a dis-service and in reality this is her net income from running a properly registered, inspected, insured and regulated child-minding business in the home?


 
[broken link removed]

Thanks to everyone that posted a reply (even the OT ones )...


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## gillarosa (25 Jun 2008)

Hi Nomun...,
You are in the same boat as a huge number of people, thing is now you have started to do your sums and address your overspending and this will help you get into a position where you can reduce your overdraft and pay off your credit card bills which should in turn free up cash flow and help on a day to day basis. But I would recommend when you get control of your spending you put aside a few Euro each week to get you both out of the house for a night out at least once a month, or long term a holiday once a year, I think psycologically we feel that if little treats are denied we end up spending on bigger items down the line, and its good for couples to get out socially together. 
In regard to cutting back little things help, such as shopping for groceries only once a week and going to Lidl or Aldi, bringing your lunch to work, stop buying papers / magazines on a regular basis (and also not being subjected to their 'lifestyle' articles or advertising will less the pressure to buy, buy, buy. Join a Library, take the kids to fee free places such as parks or museums and bring a picnic lunch with you there which you can eat in the car if the weather does its usual rather than the movies and McD's (not assuming you do this, but a lot of us do) And basically stay away from places where you can spend money.
Good luck with it!


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## Bronte (25 Jun 2008)

SarahMc said:


> Yes, absolutely
> 
> I know where my money goes. Broadband yes, Sky no. Frugal shopping, picnics, duchas card and oldish car yes, car loan, begrudgery or welfare hotline no.


 
What is a duchas card?


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## nomonnofun (25 Jun 2008)

gillarosa said:


> Hi Nomun...,
> You are in the same boat as a huge number of people, thing is now you have started to do your sums and address your overspending and this will help you get into a position where you can reduce your overdraft and pay off your credit card bills which should in turn free up cash flow and help on a day to day basis. But I would recommend when you get control of your spending you put aside a few Euro each week to get you both out of the house for a night out at least once a month, or long term a holiday once a year, I think psycologically we feel that if little treats are denied we end up spending on bigger items down the line, and its good for couples to get out socially together.
> In regard to cutting back little things help, such as shopping for groceries only once a week and going to Lidl or Aldi, bringing your lunch to work, stop buying papers / magazines on a regular basis (and also not being subjected to their 'lifestyle' articles or advertising will less the pressure to buy, buy, buy. Join a Library, take the kids to fee free places such as parks or museums and bring a picnic lunch with you there which you can eat in the car if the weather does its usual rather than the movies and McD's (not assuming you do this, but a lot of us do) And basically stay away from places where you can spend money.
> Good luck with it!


 
Good advice. Thanks!


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## ClubMan (25 Jun 2008)

Bronte said:


> What is a duchas card?


[broken link removed]?


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## Happydad (25 Jun 2008)

nomunnofun.

If it makes you feel better,myself and my wife are in the same boat. Don't remember what a pub's like on the inside. Same age as yourselves too. Don't worry though, we'll all get through it.


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## eileen alana (25 Jun 2008)

Happydad said:


> nomunnofun.
> 
> If it makes you feel better,myself and my wife are in the same boat. Don't remember what a pub's like on the inside. Same age as yourselves too. Don't worry though, we'll all get through it.


 
What a nice positive attitude and a lovely user name


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## so-crates (25 Jun 2008)

nomonnofun said:


> Attitude? What has my username got to do with anything?
> How can you make any assumptions based on a user name?


The names we choose are telling, people rarely choose random numbers or nonsense letters so "nomonnofun" might be read as "I can have no fun because I have no money" (irritation) or maybe "I have no money and I have no fun" (woe is me)

The first interpretation makes it seem like the only reason to get money is to have fun, the second sounds like two problems rolled up together.

There are actually two threads discussing origin of user names if you want to have a look
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=76954
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=61150


nomonnofun said:


> ... As I've already stated I was feeling frustrated when I posted the original post.
> 
> Thanks to everyone that posted a reply (even the OT ones )...


Best of luck nomomnofun, hope those silver linings show soon.


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## nomonnofun (26 Jun 2008)

so-crates said:


> The names we choose are telling, people rarely choose random numbers or nonsense letters so "nomonnofun" might be read as "I can have no fun because I have no money" (irritation) or maybe "I have no money and I have no fun" (woe is me)
> 
> The first interpretation makes it seem like the only reason to get money is to have fun, the second sounds like two problems rolled up together.
> 
> ...


 
I wouldn't be reading so much into my username tbh. It's just an old saying my mother used to have that came to mind when I was chosing a username (I already have another one, but re-registered for this post as people might recognise me if I used my original one...).


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## so-crates (26 Jun 2008)

I didn't read so much into it, but you did ask


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## 2441 (7 Jul 2008)

I cannot understand why it is ‘begrudgery’ to complain about the situation in this country.

We live(d) in a cash rich country where the Government was rolling in cash and provided third world services.

Our tax base is low but everything is expensive primarily due to the price of property (it has been driving everything) and this was the ordinary man in the street funding yet another Irish scam – the politicos were lining their buddies pockets (the developers).

There needs to be a sea-change of thinking in this country – people need to look beyond the confines of a poor service British economy and see how public services are provided in other European countries.

Where rents are regulated and there is a greater emphasis on the ‘people’.


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