# The Swine Flu Scam



## onq (9 Nov 2009)

From: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=15908

VIDEO: Swine Flu Government Data Scam
Government using fraud to generate flu hysteria
Global Research, November 3, 2009
CBS - 2009-11-02 

Employees are being told they have to receive the Swine Flu vaccine or lose their jobs.

Schools are giving children the vaccine against their parents wishes.

Now it has been revealed in this CBS report that the federal government is withholding data that shows a large percentage of people who have been reported as having the Swine Flu did not in fact have it. http://www.brasschecktv.com/

=====================================

Something I've been saying for months now and finally someone in CBS pulls the plug on this nonsense.

Yes, there is apparently some sort of swing flu virus and yes some people have got it and yes, for some people whose systems are already fighting another illness, there may be a risk of death.

But, out of all the numbers tested, it turns out that the actual cases of H1N1 are in low single figure percentages, and the subset of these where death actually arises is even lower - on the basis of these facts, there seems to be no case for mass-vaccinations

This is because, even in the face of an actual widespread outbreak, the methods used in treating an "epidemic" are necessarily broad spectrum because given the manufacturing time to market/supply, you just cannot target a mutating virus accurately.

In other words, by the time you target a specific "bullet" for one variant of the virus, its moved on, mutated and become slightly different. So you need - by definition - a generic solution, one that will work for whole families of that virus.
That's known as a broad spectrum "solution", a contradiction in terms if ever there was one.

Because if you're not killing 100% of the virus, all you're actually doing is breeding drug-resistant strains of that virus. This is a well known principle. This means you're storing up problems for the future for far greater numbers of people than might be killed by the initial outbreak - a super-virus.

This isn't fiction on my part BTW, its already been reported

[broken link removed]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8124987.stm

And look at the terms in which an alleged Swine Flu death is reported in that last link:

_"It is understood from her doctors at Birmingham Children's Hospital that she had underlying health conditions. It is not yet known whether swine flu contributed to her death."_

What does that mean - did she or did she die from Swine Flu?

I'm not trying to show disrespect for the death of a child -far from it - but I have serious concerns about the way in which this tragedy was high-jacked to create more Fear Uncertainty and Doubt [F.U.D. from the 1960's] about this so-called epidemic.

And then there's this piece of nonsense about an untested cocktail of drugs; -



Now just think about this for a minute.
You're supposed to get a better result when treating Tamiflu-resistant visuses not by substituting drugs that work, but by including Tamiflu in an untested cocktail of drugs.

This piece of wonderment is brought to you by the same people whose cocktail of drugs administered to American Troops in Gulf War 1 destroyed their health and produced Gulf War Syndrome; -

http://www.immed.org/illness/gulfwar_illness_research.html

I'd like to take this opportunity to ask readers of this forum to think seriously about the level of collusion required to promote mass vaccinations using broad spectrum medical techniques on the basis of hyped evidence through the office of our very own HSE.

Don't allow yourself to become distracted by the failure of the Financial Regulator and the nonsense of NAMA or you'll miss this nonsense. Be very careful of what you allow into your child's bloodstream or your own.

FWIW

ONQ.


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## Latrade (9 Nov 2009)

The fact that this ramble interchanges tamiflu with vaccines leads me to conclude it's all bull.

There's so much wrong with it I honestly don't know where to begin, plus it'll probably get pulled anyway under the terms of the site. 

Sometimes it's better to get your scientific understanding from actually being involved in science rather than websites for fellow paranoid conspiracy lovers.


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## Deas (9 Nov 2009)

There's also a depth of research out there that says that the world only began 6,000 years ago.  It doesn't mean that it has to be put up here.  If I believed the research above, I'd never take a vaccine for anything!


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## lightswitch (9 Nov 2009)

Its still worth getting opinions from both sides though is it not?

Remember bird flu, bit of a non runner that one after all the hysteria!

I know a few people who have come down with mild flu like symptoms and have been diagnosed by their GP's with Swine flu, swabs are no longer being taken for analysis.  

If they had swine flu then we have little to worry about as the illness itself was quite mild and they were back to normal after a few days.  LS.


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## Latrade (9 Nov 2009)

lightswitch said:


> Its still worth getting opinions from both sides though is it not?
> 
> Remember bird flu, bit of a non runner that one after all the hysteria!
> 
> ...


 
Not if one side is so far off the mark that it becomes dangerous. Such as vaccines. There is no "two" sides. The opposite side has meant that whereas for years we've virtually erradicated measles (like small pox, TB, etc) thanks to the anti-vaccine movement children are dying of measles again. Nice.

Swabs are being taken, it's just over a select few GPs. That's standard practice across the world.

Bird flu was never a runner as far as the majority of the medical profession was concerned because it hadn't crossed the species barrier. This never got through to the media. Swine flu crossed the species barrier in a big way immediately. You cannot compare the two.


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## Caveat (9 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> ...crossed the species barrier


 
_Zoonotic_ is maybe the word you are looking for? 

Or maybe you're not actually looking for it at all.


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## Latrade (9 Nov 2009)

Caveat said:


> _Zoonotic_ is maybe the word you are looking for?
> 
> Or maybe you're not actually looking for it at all.


 
 I'm not sure what your point is.


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## lightswitch (9 Nov 2009)

I dont think you can eradicate flu in the same way that TB and small pox have been eridacicated.  Surely flu will mutate into different forms and carry on.  Measles was a common childhood illness when I was a child.  Of course its great if it can be eridacicated, but it wasn't considered as much more than a common childhood illness back then.

I guess we will know in 3 months or so if Swine flu is as serious as it is being made out to be.  Personally I have no illnesses and wont be getting any vaxcine in the forseeable future.  I have no issues with others deciding to get it if that is what they believe to be best for them.


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## Latrade (9 Nov 2009)

lightswitch said:


> I dont think you can eradicate flu in the same way that TB and small pox have been eridacicated. Surely flu will mutate into different forms and carry on. Measles was a common childhood illness when I was a child. Of course its great if it can be eridacicated, but it wasn't considered as much more than a common childhood illness back then.
> 
> I guess we will know in 3 months or so if Swine flu is as serious as it is being made out to be. Personally I have no illnesses and wont be getting any vaxcine in the forseeable future. I have no issues with others deciding to get it if that is what they believe to be best for them.


 
Nope, you can't mainly because each season of flu is a new flu (or a variation of the previous season's) and so each year the vaccine is a new vaccine. But the vaccines are important first to protect the most vulnerable from flu. 

Measles is a potentially fatal and serious condition. A large portion of cases may be mild, but there were/are enough severe and fatal occasions to have caused concern.

As to your own health, that's grand. The other thing though about vaccines is "the herd". An unfortunate term, but the more who have vaccines, then the more of a firewall you create in preventing it spreading. that's the idea of the seasonal flu vaccine.


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## RMCF (9 Nov 2009)

I have no doubt there is such a thing as the SWINE FLU out there, but I think it is being hyped up beyond believe.

I know a few folk who have had it, and they said it was like having a normal bad flu (perhaps they just had a normal bad flu?) but nothing more.

And the fact that it has NOT killed a single person WITHOUT underlying health conditions means that it is being hyped up. Immumise all those people, but the rest of us are ok.


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## Latrade (9 Nov 2009)

RMCF said:


> I have no doubt there is such a thing as the SWINE FLU out there, but I think it is being hyped up beyond believe.
> 
> I know a few folk who have had it, and they said it was like having a normal bad flu (perhaps they just had a normal bad flu?) but nothing more.
> 
> And the fact that it has NOT killed a single person WITHOUT underlying health conditions means that it is being hyped up. Immumise all those people, but the rest of us are ok.


 
Who's hyping though? All the HSE do is release the weekly stats on cases. In their data, even the press releases it is clear that while numbers are on the increase it is a mild to moderate strain. It is the HSE who are clear that all fatalities are from those with serious underlying health conditions.

On the vaccines, as I said earlier, with flu vaccines the more vaccinated (even thouse not at risk) the better in order to act as firewall for the virus.


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## Caveat (9 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> I'm not sure what your point is.


 
None really.  Just that _zoonotic_ is the word to describe a disease that can be passed from animals to humans - and vice versa.

Just being 'clever'.


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## Bronte (9 Nov 2009)

How many people in Ireland have had swine flu?  Where do they get the figures from.  Isn't it entirely possible that people have had it without knowing they had it?  I was offered it last week and refused and my doctor agreed with me.  I don't want to be a medical guinea pig on an untested vaccine.


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## truthseeker (9 Nov 2009)

Bronte said:


> How many people in Ireland have had swine flu? Where do they get the figures from. Isn't it entirely possible that people have had it without knowing they had it?


 
Just off the phone from a friend, told me his sisters BF had swine flu. I asked how he knew he had it. The GP diagnosed him with swine flu over the phone. Now Im not a doctor but I surely know, you cannot make a diagnosis that something is or isnt swine flu over the phone - it could be any variety of normal flu - or something else entirely. I wonder if he has been included in the numbers for swine flu?


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## Latrade (9 Nov 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Just off the phone from a friend, told me his sisters BF had swine flu. I asked how he knew he had it. The GP diagnosed him with swine flu over the phone. Now Im not a doctor but I surely know, you cannot make a diagnosis that something is or isnt swine flu over the phone - it could be any variety of normal flu - or something else entirely. I wonder if he has been included in the numbers for swine flu?


 
They don't and the HSE don't state swine flu (though it's a reasonable assumption). You'd be told you have an influenza like illness (ILI) which is probably swine flu.

How the HSE estimate the numbers is based upon GP records. Then they compare this with the GPs who take swabs. The swabbing is just to get a proportion of swine flu against any other influenza. Currently all swabs are showing as swine flu and not seasonal/any other flu.

And the vaccine has been tested. It was the media how portrayed it as "fast tracked". We were able to get the vaccine out quicker because the virus was isolated early and Pharma factories were already gearing up to producing the seasonal flu vaccine, so there was no delays in getting ready to produce it. Add to that the vaccine is just a slightly modified version of the seasonal vaccine, there is no issue over guinea pigs.


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## demoivre (9 Nov 2009)

I have  given about as much thought to Swine flu as I did to SARS, CJD and Bird flu which is hardly any.


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## RMCF (9 Nov 2009)

demoivre said:


> I have  given about as much thought to Swine flu as I did to SARS, CJD and Bird flu which is hardly any.



Me too. The Culture of Fear is a very powerful thing.

As for getting diagnosed over the phone, I have heard of a few of these cases locally too. Thats crazy if they are being included in the official figures.

What if its just the 'man flu'.


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## Latrade (9 Nov 2009)

RMCF said:


> Me too. The Culture of Fear is a very powerful thing.
> 
> As for getting diagnosed over the phone, I have heard of a few of these cases locally too. Thats crazy if they are being included in the official figures.
> 
> What if its just the 'man flu'.


 
You're right, it makes more sense to have someone presenting the symptoms of a rapidly transmissable virus go to an area where you have other members of the public waiting. It also makes perfect sense to have them go to the same place where you have the very people who are at risk from serious complications waiting to see the GP. 

Why, those doctors and stuff just don't know what they're talking about. They're just forcing a malingerer's charter on us.


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## truthseeker (9 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> You're right, it makes more sense to have someone presenting the symptoms of a rapidly transmissable virus go to an area where you have other members of the public waiting. It also makes perfect sense to have them go to the same place where you have the very people who are at risk from serious complications waiting to see the GP.


 
If thats the case then why:



Latrade said:


> Swabs are being taken, it's just over a select few GPs.


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## Latrade (9 Nov 2009)

truthseeker said:


> If thats the case then why:


 
Because the GPs/staff go to the person presenting the symptoms and not the person going to the GP.


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## truthseeker (9 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> Because the GPs/staff go to the person presenting the symptoms and not the person going to the GP.


 
Ah - thats interesting, so only house call doctors are taking swabs then?
I would imagine that would skew the figures a lot, its very expensive to have a house call.


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## S.L.F (9 Nov 2009)

ong I totally agree with you on this.

It's just another load of mass hysteria caused by the news papers and their masters


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## onq (9 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> The fact that this ramble interchanges tamiflu with vaccines leads me to conclude it's all bull.



<looks over post>

No it doesn't, it quotes 4th Estate reports that Tamiflu is being combined with other measures to treat Tamiflu-resistant strains of the virus.



> There's so much wrong with it I honestly don't know where to begin, plus it'll probably get pulled anyway under the terms of the site.


In the first case begin by correctly reading what's been posted.
In the second case its the mods call and I'm happy abide by their decision.
Are you suggesting that the "letting off steam" forum is the wrong place for a rant?



> Sometimes it's better to get your scientific understanding from actually being involved in science rather than websites for fellow paranoid conspiracy lovers.


Ad-hominem attacks are far less effective than you'd think...

Your comment seems to be based on something other than what I wrote.
This is being done openly, not secretly, and its an issue of incorrect reasoning.
The report came from CBS and the other issues were widely reported in the papers.
I stated that there is limited empirical testing of a cocktail of measures which could do more harm than the virus itself.
I stated that the current evidence of an epidemic rests on  limited availablity of hard evidence that there is a significant risk or significant incidence.
I cannot recall hearing one independently verified confirmation that a person who alleged died of swine flu actually died from that disease, as opposed to one of these apparently innumerable and ill-defined "underlying causes".

There are two simple questions to answer.

1. Are these deaths due to swine flu or not?
By all accounts its not an immuno-suppressant, so why can't the cause of death be definitively stated to be swin flu?

2. Are the proposed "cures" or "preventative measures" safe or not?
Nobody seems to know and yet our country has spent millions on them.

FWIW

ONQ.

"it'll probably get pulled anyway under the terms of the site"

- Latrade in post 956922 employing wishful thinking instead of reading and responding to a post


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## S.L.F (9 Nov 2009)

She has various friends who give her info and keep her up to speed on what is going on in the world.

One of her friends sent her this...

*************************************

DR. RUSSELL BLAYLOCK ON SWINE FLU

This is an email sent to a friend of Dr. Blaylock and is now being
forwarded to anyone interested. Please pass it along. Also note the
attached biography of Dr. Blaylock. Dr. Blaylock is a board
certified neurosurgeon, author and lecturer. He attended the LSU
School of Medicine in New Orleans and completed his general surgical
internship and neurosurgical residency at the Medical University of
South Carolina in Charleston , SC.

No one should take this vaccine (Swine Flu vaccine) it is one of the
most dangerous vaccines ever devised. It contains an immune adjuvant
called squalene (MF-59) which has been shown to cause severe
autoimmune disorders such as MS, rheumatoid arthritis and Lupus.
The newsletter for August covers this and it may not be out yet.
This is the vaccine adjuvant that is strongly linked to the Gulf War
syndrome, which killed over 10,000 soldiers and caused a 200%
increase in the fatal disease ALS (Lou Gehreg disease). This virus
H1N1 kills by causing a cytokine storm , which means that it causes
the body s immune system to overreact and that is why it is killing
young people and is a mild disease in the elderly. (The elderly have
weakened immune systems.) This vaccine is a very powerful immune
stimulator and carries the real possibility of making the lethality
of the virus much greater.
One s best protection is vitamin D3.. One should take 5000 IU a day
now and when the disease begins to spread increase the dose to
15,000 IU a day. Vitamin D3 modulates the immune reaction, reducing
the chance of an
overreaction and stimulates the body to produce what are called
antimicrobial peptides, which are powerful killers of viruses that
does not involve immunity. This is dose related, which means the
higher the dose of vitamin D3 the better the protection. Fish oils
(the best is Carlson s Norwegian lemon flavored fish oil) also
reduce immune overreaction. One teaspoon a day should be sufficient.
For severe symptoms, one teaspoon twice a day. Antioxidants of
various kinds also help this includes, quercetin, curcumin, grape
seed extract, vitamin C and natural vitamin E. A good
multivitamin/mineral such as Extend Core ([broken link removed]) is also
essential.

Feel free to spread this around. People need to know how to protect
themselves.

Type in the following in your search venue on the internet:
Dr. Russell Blaylock on 1976 Swine Flu and Outbreak Today


Cleveland Clinic is ranked one of the top hospitals in America by
U.S. News & World Report (2008).

Visit us online at http://www.clevelandclinic.org for a complete
listing of our services, staff and locations.


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## Latrade (9 Nov 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Ah - thats interesting, so only house call doctors are taking swabs then?
> I would imagine that would skew the figures a lot, its very expensive to have a house call.



Nope. It is actually quite simple. The World Health Organisation has a requirement that all cases of Influenza Like Illness are confirmed in the early stages of a pandemic. Once they escalated it to Level 6 (i.e. widespread activity) that requirement is dropped and the recommendation is that there is 10% swabbing to ascertain a percentage of cases confirmed. 

As a result, the HSE selected a quota of GPs who would continue to swab when suspected cases arise. That's what is happening and it isn't that difficult, controversial or stupid. 



onq said:


> <looks over post>
> 
> No it doesn't, it quotes 4th Estate reports that Tamiflu is being combined with other measures to treat Tamiflu-resistant strains of the virus.
> 
> ...



Maybe it was how the post was written, but comments on tamiflu seemed to lead to a conclusion on vaccines. The resistance to tamiflu had nothing to do with the medication nor the health departments nor the governments. It was more thanks to the media harping on about tamiflu as if it were a preventative medication rather than a glorified (though effective) lemsip.

The resistant strains were exactly what the Dept of Health, governments and manufacturers feared because you had people stockpiling on tamiflu and chomping on it like it were sweets.

What wishful thinking is it when medical discussions are regularly stopped? In fact previous discussions on Swine Flu have also been stopped? 

I'm more than prepared to discuss an issue, but the irony is you present an argument of scare mongering by countering the alleged scare mongering with even more (and potentially more harmful) scare mongering from the press.

That's where the problem lies, it is not a government conspiracy, the the press' inability to just present some simple information.

Here it is, the stuff they cannot seem to get their heads around.

1. It is a pandemic. End of. But "pandemic" does not mean it is Armageddon and the end of the world. It simply relates to how easily transmitted a virus is between humans and the uptake worldwide. That's what we have, that's where we are.

2. It only has mild symptoms in the majority of cases. At no point have the state or the HSE said anything different. They have gone out their way to say it is a moderate dose not just since April, but every single week in their press releases. 

3. It is completely different to other media scares such as SARS, Avian Flu because immediately it spread between humans. Neither Sars nor Avian flu have managed this and while there are still cases (funnily enough they have a much higher mortality rate) of both, they can only be caught through close contact with infected animals. 

4. It is a new virus so we really, really do not know what's going to happen down the line. We have some idea based on previous similar pandemics but we don't know whether come March this thing will just go away. There's a chance it will come back stronger in a third wave. But you should not find one educated medical professional making any predictions.

5. It is again different to the seasonal flu because of the age population it is affecting. If you were to plot a graph with age and number of cases, you'd see a "bathtub curve" with the young and elderly affected most by the flu. This is skewed to the young and tailing off around 35 years. That doesn't happen with a normal flu. The thing is yet again the health professionals are quite open in that they have no idea why it does that. All we know is that during the 1918 pandemic, it followed a similar model.

6. The deaths are complications as a result of contracting swine flu. Most were already pretty ill, however the swine flu caused significant complications. They got swine flu and they died, that is all the HSE are saying, not that swine flu is killing everyone. Again, they cannot be more open in saying it is a mild dose and the mortality rate is very low.

Flu is not in itself immuno-suppressant but if you are suffering from a serious illness that is, then you can imagine it's difficult for the system to actually fight the flu which leads to further complications. In fact, the deaths from seasonal flu is not the flu itself doing the killing, but the complications. Why is that difficult to grasp or why is it something to knock the HSE with when they've never contradicted this?

7. The number of cases reported to GPs is exceptionally high. Even in the summer when flu is supposed to be dormant, the number of cases exceeded the usual seasonal flu rate at its peak. Rates now exceed the highest seasonal flu recorded in Ireland by some way and we've still a month or so before the peak season for flu. 3% of the population have been affected by the swine flu. Average numbers are between that and 5% for the total flu season which we've only just hit.

8. The vaccine is not new, has not been made by nazi sympathisers, is not big Pharma trying to introduce mind control and is categorically not governments looking to cull our children. The basis for the flu vaccine is the same every year and every year it is slight altered to account for the new version of the seasonal flu. It was the exact same set up for this flu, why it was processed quicker is because they were already set up to proceed with the seasonal flu so most of the leg work was already done.

9. There has been controversy over whether the vaccine will do more harm than good. However, first to consider is Mrs Latrade and her mother cannot take the vaccine due to allergy to eggs. I'm having it so she doesn't have to. Vaccination is essential to forming a barrier in the population to viruses. 

Also, there was suggestion that neurological conditions can be caused by flu vaccines. One report following an outbreak in the States linked the two. The report wasn't covered up, it wasn't hidden, it was released and discussed. However, when every single investigation into the findings and attempts to replicate the study reported back they showed different findings. And this has been the case ever since. It is strongly supported that the condition is caused by the virus (you do not get a dose of the virus in a vaccine) and not the vaccine. 

10. However, is the vaccine safe? Well yes it is. But...as with every single medication in the world some people will present side affects or have a reaction. And guess what, the HSE are reporting those! So again no hidden data, no conspiracy. They are telling us exactly what is happening so we can make an informed decision. However listening to the camp who would promote anti-vaccine trash (thus directly causing non-vaccinated children to die) does not make people informed, but scared.

11. Nobody in this state is being forced or is forced to have any vaccine. Even health care workers and doctors aren't forced. It was suggested in the States and I'd guess some have even tried to bring it in there, but that's their problem not ours.

That's it in a nutshell. Are the media playing this up? Yes on slow news days.  But that doesn't make a conspiracy, it makes inept journalism. The same journalism that also quotes the nut jobs trying to undermine a vaccination programme, the same journalists who promote the same crack pots as part of a fair and balanced discussion and have nicely helped cause measles to come back and start killing kids again.


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## micheller (9 Nov 2009)

I found this article interesting:
[broken link removed]

The ECDC stated that swineflu could kill the same number as normal seasonal influenza does every year. It simply has a different age profile.
Is everyone this fearful of normal flu? Usually not.
If the situation stays like this I won't be having this vaccine.


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## RMCF (10 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> You're right, it makes more sense to have someone presenting the symptoms of a rapidly transmissable virus go to an area where you have other members of the public waiting. It also makes perfect sense to have them go to the same place where you have the very people who are at risk from serious complications waiting to see the GP.
> 
> Why, those doctors and stuff just don't know what they're talking about. They're just forcing a malingerer's charter on us.



You sound like one of the dream customers for the 'Culture Of Fear' makers - simply believe everything you are told, like the rest of the sheep. I bet you you were terrified when they said Bird Flu could, if it escaped into the West, could wipe out millions. And you ask who's hyping it? Have you not seen the news, media reports for the last 6 months. I actually seen one report that said that half the worlds population could catch this. Half the worlds population !! Needless to say I had a good laugh at that. You probably cried.

Here's an idea, why don't we all stop going to GPs full stop - let them diagnose everything over the phone sure.

I have no doubt in this country people are phoning their GP to say they have flu-like symptoms to get a week off work. And I'm sure its happening in big numbers.


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## lightswitch (10 Nov 2009)

rmcf said:


> you sound like one of the dream customers for the 'culture of fear' makers - simply believe everything you are told, like the rest of the sheep. I bet you you were terrified when they said bird flu could, if it escaped into the west, could wipe out millions. And you ask who's hyping it? Have you not seen the news, media reports for the last 6 months. I actually seen one report that said that half the worlds population could catch this. Half the worlds population !! Needless to say i had a good laugh at that. You probably cried.
> 
> Here's an idea, why don't we all stop going to gps full stop - let them diagnose everything over the phone sure.
> 
> I have no doubt in this country people are phoning their gp to say they have flu-like symptoms to get a week off work. And i'm sure its happening in big numbers.


 
+1


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## Bronte (10 Nov 2009)

truthseeker said:


> I asked how he knew he had it. The GP diagnosed him with swine flu over the phone.


 
Really the Irish Health Service are worse than I thought.  At least it didn't cost him 60 Euro for that advice unless he had to pay by electronic transfer for the phone consultation.


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## Latrade (10 Nov 2009)

RMCF said:


> You sound like one of the dream customers for the 'Culture Of Fear' makers - simply believe everything you are told, like the rest of the sheep. I bet you you were terrified when they said Bird Flu could, if it escaped into the West, could wipe out millions. And you ask who's hyping it? Have you not seen the news, media reports for the last 6 months. I actually seen one report that said that half the worlds population could catch this. Half the worlds population !! Needless to say I had a good laugh at that. You probably cried.
> 
> Here's an idea, why don't we all stop going to GPs full stop - let them diagnose everything over the phone sure.
> 
> I have no doubt in this country people are phoning their GP to say they have flu-like symptoms to get a week off work. And I'm sure its happening in big numbers.



That's an awful lot of supposition about me. Where have I ever said anything about 50% of the population? Where have I said anything that contradicts that the media are the ones hyping this? 

It's simple, you just look at the actual statistics and numbers, that's all I ask. It isn't as random as you'd think, there are large numbers contracting the virus, but it is just a mild strain. And that's it. 

Funny thing though is that there really isn't a whole load of people phoning their GP to get a week off work, it just isn't happening on any kind of scale.  But then if you're in no doubt about that it is who am I to argue when you seem to be more inclined to make spurious claims and promulgate outrage at a situation that just doesn't exist.


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## Vanilla (10 Nov 2009)

I'll have to make a decision over the next week as to whether to get our children vaccinated. We are all perfectly healthy with no underlying medical issues. Hard to know. I will probably make appt with my GP to discuss it.


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## RMCF (10 Nov 2009)

Myself and the OH (well her really) are on the verge of having a baby.

Her consultant at the last scan advised her *NOT *to get the vaccine - said there isn't enough evidence that it is completely safe.

We weren't going to have it anyway, but just asked him his opinion.


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## michaelm (10 Nov 2009)

Vanilla said:


> I'll have to make a decision over the next week as to whether to get our children vaccinated. We are all perfectly healthy with no underlying medical issues. Hard to know.


I'm in the same boat.  My instinct is against.


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## DavyJones (10 Nov 2009)

Vanilla said:


> I'll have to make a decision over the next week as to whether to get our children vaccinated. We are all perfectly healthy with no underlying medical issues. Hard to know. I will probably make appt with my GP to discuss it.





michaelm said:


> I'm in the same boat.  My instinct is against.




I too must decide on my childrens jab, my wife is against it but I belive in modern medicine. It will be interesting when the time comes.

My one question is, how many people worldwide die from the regular flu annually?


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## truthseeker (10 Nov 2009)

RMCF said:


> Here's an idea, why don't we all stop going to GPs full stop - let them diagnose everything over the phone sure.


 
If it would save me the 60 euro per visit Id definitely be phoning rather than visiting!! 



RMCF said:


> I have no doubt in this country people are phoning their GP to say they have flu-like symptoms to get a week off work. And I'm sure its happening in big numbers.


 
Never even thought of that, wonder will they issue a medical cert over the phone?


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## truthseeker (10 Nov 2009)

Latrade said:


> That's what is happening and it isn't that difficult, controversial or stupid.


 
Where did I say it was? I simply commented that it was 'interesting'.

Even more interesting is how you managed to deduce the above from my post!!

Its a full blown culture of fear storm in a teacup.


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## Caveat (10 Nov 2009)

DavyJones said:


> My one question is, how many people worldwide die from the regular flu annually?


 
Worldwide, I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that annual deaths exceed 100,000 all the time - sometimes more than double this.


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## micheller (10 Nov 2009)

Caveat said:


> Worldwide, I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that annual deaths exceed 100,000 all the time - sometimes more than double this.



Sounds about right considering the IT article posted said normally 40,000 a year in Europe.


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## Latrade (10 Nov 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Where did I say it was? I simply commented that it was 'interesting'.
> 
> Even more interesting is how you managed to deduce the above from my post!!
> 
> Its a full blown culture of fear storm in a teacup.


 
So what's so interesting about a pretty sensible and standard way of monitoring levels?

And I keep coming back to where exactly is the fear being generated from? The fact is that it isn't the HSE, the HSE are handling this more than adeuqately and proportionally to the actual risk. Their precautions are entirely sensible and reasonable and have nothing to do with generating fear.



micheller said:


> Sounds about right considering the IT article posted said normally 40,000 a year in Europe.


 
The like for likes are difficult because of the different age range affected by the current virus. Given we're into the general season already it's unlikely it'll mutate into anything more serious at this stage. 

Overall though seasonal flu also affects the elderly more and so naturally has a greater mortality rate, where as the "swine" flu tends to affect a younger healthier population. All that can be said is that in other similar pandemics it's among the younger and healthier population that we've seen the large number of deaths. But then the caveat to this is 2009 is way different kettle of fish to 1918. Not just in terms of health care and overall health and nutrition, but sociologically too. 

Realistically, unless there's a very sudden mutation during this current wave, I can't see the mortality rate being as high as the seasonal flu (roughly 1% of seasonal flu cases result in death).


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## Sumatra (10 Nov 2009)

I haven't seen any evidence to suggest the swine flu vaccine isn't safe but plenty of evidence to suggest getting swine flu can be lethal.

Weighing up all the evidence our family choose to have the vaccine yesterday.


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## Caveat (10 Nov 2009)

Sumatra said:


> but plenty of evidence to suggest getting swine flu can be lethal.


 
Of course, but no different to seasonal flu in that respect then.


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## Sumatra (10 Nov 2009)

Except Swine Flu mainly takes younger people.


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## RMCF (10 Nov 2009)

Caveat said:


> Of course, but no different to seasonal flu in that respect then.



Just listening to a guy from the UK (on the Last Word) saying that the seasonal flu in Britain would normally be involved in between 6000 - 8000 deaths each year.

But swine flu has killed 200 odd.

So is it really that lethal? If you believe the hype, yeah.


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## Latrade (10 Nov 2009)

RMCF said:


> Just listening to a guy from the UK (on the Last Word) saying that the seasonal flu in Britain would normally be involved in between 6000 - 8000 deaths each year.
> 
> But swine flu has killed 200 odd.
> 
> So is it really that lethal? If you believe the hype, yeah.



Ok. First, what hype? Show me where we've had predictions of Armageddon. And I don't mean references to numbers affected because that's a whole different ball game. You see the hype is actually all in your head. No one is saying this is going to kill half the world or even come as close a proportion of the deaths seen by seasonal flu. That's an assumption made by those who don't understand the difference between an increase in those presenting symptoms (which is all the HSE and every other agency in the world state) and dropping dead on the spot.

Second where do I say I do believe hype or indicate a belief in the hype? Is it because I've read the HSE stats and can see they very clearly state this is a mild condition? Maybe use of "mild" is scare mongering. I dunno, I'm not too up on modern internet vernacular.

The only caveat anyone has ever mentioned is that we don't know how this will develop. And that's it. They've basically stated it may well just puff out of existence, but it may well come back stronger. Influenza is a very simple organism. This is good and bad for us. It's good because it's very easy to develop a nice vaccine, it's bad because its simplicity allows it to mutate and replicate quickly too.

However, unfortunately I have to go over some of those unspeakable things: facts, just to counter the point you make, though I've actually made these points several times before in this thread, alas they don't seem to sink in. 

The deaths from seasonal flu are skewed because it affects a greater population of the elderly. It's not a nice thing to say, but the further past 65 you are when you get a dose of the flu, the more likely you are to experience complications as a result. The swine flu is affecting a much younger and healthier population. Another issue is that as a parent if your child is ill, you seek care for them, not always the case with the elderly.

But the age difference alone is enough to say that there will be differences in the mortality rate.

Another issue is again back to the "we don't know" but those deaths and the rate of seasonal flu (around 171 per 100,000) is at its peak. The peak for any flu in the Northern Hemisphere is January, February. We're just in November and the flu symptom rate is way above not only the average, but also the peak rate every recorded in Ireland for seasonal flu. We actually passed the peak rate of seasonal flu at the back end of August, early September. At a time when the flu virus is inactive.

All that says is that we could face a much higher level come the peak period of Jan/Feb 09. Again, just to be very clear no one is saying you'll be stepping over bodies at the check out in Superquinn or that we'll have a plague of zombies (though being honest I really, really hope I do get to see a plague of zombies at some point in my life). Yes it is true all the evil, under the thumb of big pharmachem doctors are saying is that come early next year more people will probably experience flu symptoms than is usual. 

Now, that's hardly sending out a message to go and build the air raid shelter, buy a gas mask or stock up on sharp implements for beheading zombies (have mine just in case though).

So that's it. Again, how much clearer can anyone be that the hype and doom is all in other people's heads? It takes about 5 minutes to go to the HSE website and have a scan over their reports just to see people are getting ill, it is mild, but it is increasing.


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## Sumatra (10 Nov 2009)

A three year old here was touch and go. Not a mild case. I know of two other people here in our local primary school since the October break who were not mild cases.


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## bond-007 (10 Nov 2009)

Sumatra said:


> Except Swine Flu mainly takes younger people.


That is what had me worried. I got vaccinated yesterday. I am not prepared to take an unnecessary risk.


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## bren1916 (11 Nov 2009)

Wife wants to have kids vaccinated later this month (both under 5) I'm against it but will relent as at the end of the day (hopefully) it can't do any harm?


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## micheller (11 Nov 2009)

According to todays Irish times there have been 0 deaths in 0-4 age group so far:
[broken link removed]


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## RMCF (11 Nov 2009)

bond-007 said:


> That is what had me worried. *I got vaccinated* yesterday. I am *not prepared to take an unnecessary risk*.



Perhaps you are taking an unneccesary risk by getting the vaccine?

Who knows?

I visited a consultant a few weeks back with my pregnant wife, and he advised her *NOT *to get it with the comment, "I don't think its been tested enough yet and we don't have enough data on its effect".

But thats only his opinion of course.


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## Sumatra (12 Nov 2009)

Swine flu vaccine has no effect whatsoever on applications for life assurance as its administration has been recommended by greater medical thoughts.

With no vaccine if you get swine flu and it is not serious then the advantage is that you build up your immune system naturally. If what you get is serious then 2 to 9% of hospital admissions have a fatal outcome. I suppose if there is a second wave, the vaccine will have built you up to a higher level than your natural immune system can match in such a short period of time.

It is a personal choice and similar to the MMR choice many parents make. I took a long time to look at the pros and cons and decided to go with the vaccine. Our three children and ourselves have been vaccinated and so far so good.


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## Firehead (13 Nov 2009)

It's definately a personal choice, just to add my tuppance worth I have a friend who is a nurse in a major regional hospital, she told me today that she saw a peadratic consultant who works in her department and who is pregnant queing up today for the swine flu jab so I suppose that speaks for itself.


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## bogle (13 Nov 2009)

Sumatra said:


> I haven't seen any evidence to suggest the swine flu vaccine isn't safe but plenty of evidence to suggest getting swine flu can be lethal.
> 
> Weighing up all the evidence our family choose to have the vaccine yesterday.



Do you mind if I ask on what basis you and you're family were given the vaccine?
I was under the impression that only the high risk groups and medical people were being vaccinated at present.
Perhaps you or some of you're family fall into one of these categories?

There was a very good article in the New Scientist Magazine recently on Swine Flu and on the pros and cons of the vaccine.

Overall, on balance I think we'll (wife and kids) get the vaccine too, whenever they start doing the general population.


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## Sumatra (13 Nov 2009)

Hi Bogle, I think at this stage they will give the vaccine to anyone who wants it. For us based on high risk and age. 

We listen to French TV a lot and I hear the vaccine was only released to the general public yesterday. Prior to that it was availible to health care professionals but the take up amongst that group was only 10% which surprised me. France with almost 10 times the population of the island of Ireland have only suffered approx the same level of deaths that we here have suffered. I don't know the reason for this one would imagine their mortality experience should be in proportion to ours but then in the Herald Tribune I read Ireland, UK and Iceland have been particularly badly hit.

Hi Bogle, I think at this stage they will give the vaccine to anyone who wants it. Based on high risk and age. 

We listen to French TV a lot and I hear the vaccine was only released to the general public yesterday. Prior to that it was availible to health care professionals but the take up amongst that group was only 10% which surprised me. France with almost 10 times the population of the island of Ireland have only suffered approx the same level of deaths that we here have suffered. I don't know the reason for this one would imagine their mortality experience should be in proportion to ours but then in the Hearld Tribune I read Ireland, UK and Iceland have been particulariy badly hit.

I feel based on our circumstances I made the right decision based on the evidence but I know everyone must make their own decision and it is not an easy one. Perhaps I shouldn't try to influence others decision making process by expressing my views.

PS my father used to get New Scientist - a fantastic read and I really should consider a mail order. I respect your opinion.


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## Caveat (27 Nov 2009)

17th death from swine flu yesterday - unfortunate of course, but the figure remains at *zero* AFAIK for the amount of victims that have not had underlying health problems.


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## RMCF (27 Nov 2009)

Correct - it has only killed very sick people. Not one single healthy person has died.

Nothing but an over-blown pile of hype.


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## ninsaga (28 Nov 2009)

Swine flue stats - compared to what else people are dying of these days


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## haminka1 (28 Nov 2009)

so far, the biggest scare-mongering i've seen was from the groups opposing the swine-flu vaccination /or any other vaccination for that matter/ ... it reads like x-files on speed ...
i mean, it's free, gps or clinics give it for free, you pay no fee for the visit - so why should they be so hell-bent on promoting it? and yet, they'd recommend you to take it if you are a risk group so it's not like it's a gold mine for them ... 
most of the people warning against it would in normal times talk about government conspiracies, advising natural medicines and plenty of vitamins /frequently their own as you'd find out on their web page/, feed you horror stories of children suffering from autism or neurodegenerative diseases as a result of a measles vaccination .. in the next step they'd want you to get a machine gun, go through a boot camp of effective guerilla training and ask you to withdraw into the mountains /or bogs in our case/ and wait until your assistance in fight against evil state machinery is needed ... 
so for all those who tell me i believe each stupid crap the governments and pharma companies are feeding us, how about you believing each stupid crap because it's AGAINST all authorities /reminds me of the way sulky teenagers think to be honest/ ...


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## Complainer (28 Nov 2009)

RMCF said:


> Correct - it has only killed very sick people. Not one single healthy person has died.
> 
> Nothing but an over-blown pile of hype.



Not true (unless you consider pregnancy to be an illness) - See [broken link removed]


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## DB74 (29 Nov 2009)

No concrete details available but the 2nd person to die of swine flu in RoI is thought to have NO underlying health conditions

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]


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