# Help - what to do next 10 points short of first choice course



## deiseboys (24 Aug 2006)

my daughter is 10 points short of her first choice subject in UCD.  She has been told that she can do a course in an IT to make up the points is this true or would she be better of repeating.


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## ClubMan (24 Aug 2006)

Does being short definitely mean no place or does it depend on demand? Have the _CAO _offers been issued yet - i.e. is she sure that she doesn't get a place yet?


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## Sarn (24 Aug 2006)

I was in the same situation a long time ago. It is possible that the points requirement could drop in the 2nd and 3rd rounds depending on how many people turn down places. If it is something like medicine than that is unlikely to happen. Check out to see if the course points dropped in previous years (I think the CAO webpage gives this info).

With regard to doing an IT course to make up the 10 points, in my mind this would only apply if a minimum requirement was needed i.e. needed a B3 in honours maths. Unless things have changed, your points are only from a single sitting of the LC so adding to them would be a bit strange. The only other way this would apply is if there was an interview for the course and it was based on merit, otherwise everybody would be doing these courses to get in. You can always contact UCD for more info.

Repeating is a big commitment, I did it and have never regretted it (got what I wanted eventually). She has to ask herself can she really do better next time around otherwise she could end up in the same boat next year. If her heart is set on it and there is no alternative then she should strongly consider it.


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## onekeano (24 Aug 2006)

Did she consider requesting a recheck of papers that she could have expected another 5-10 points one - just in case?

Best of luck
Roy


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## deiseboys (24 Aug 2006)

Offered second choice but really does not want to do this.  She is going to view some papers and hopefully make up the points.  The course was 400 points last year and went down to 395 this year.  I think the chance of it dropping again is slim?


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## onekeano (24 Aug 2006)

My own daughter came in 20 points below the 2005 requirement and th course dropped 25 so she scraped in by skin of her teeth so hopefully your daughter might have some luck.

Hope it works out - stressful time for parents!

Roy


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## ClubMan (24 Aug 2006)

onekeano said:


> Hope it works out - stressful time for parents!


Not sure why. Heading towards their 20s is surely time for offspring to start looking after themselves?


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## cian8 (25 Aug 2006)

onekeano said:


> Did she consider requesting a recheck of papers that she could have expected another 5-10 points one - just in case?
> 
> Best of luck
> Roy


 
I'd say if she is just ten points short it would be worthwhile to have a few (if not all) her papers rechecked. A change of one A2 to an A1 for an example would be 10 points!

I don't think the IT route has been very well explained to you. In my understanding, if for example someone wanted to do Civil Engineering in a university but fell short of the points, they could (if they had the course on their CAO) do Civ Eng in an IT, which would lead to a Cert followed by a Diploma (mostly, I know there are a lot of degree courses in ITs now). They could then apply to a university to join the 2nd/3rd year of their degree course. But the universities don't automatically accept candidates, i guess its based on results, also some of the ITs have arrangements with specific universities, I know that LIT sends Civ Eng graduates to the University of Dundee to complete their degrees.

Personally, for someone like your daughter I wouldn't recommend this route, she clearly has the ability to get in to the course (she is only 10 points short after all) and if this is what she wants - then that should be enough motivation to ensure she gets it next year. There are many reasons why repeating students have an advantage over first-time students in the LC. They don't have to matriculate (i.e. pass the min Irish, English, Maths, foreign language requirements), when repeating its all about the points. So your daughter could drop one or more of her poorer (least favourite) subjects and if necessary take on some of the subjects that require less work.

Good luck anyway!


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## bazermc (25 Aug 2006)

deiseboys said:


> my daughter is 10 points short of her first choice subject in UCD. She has been told that she can do a course in an IT to make up the points is this true or would she be better of repeating.


 
Is there not a second round of offers next week where points will decrease?  Is the course a popular course that may not drop much.  Have a look at how much it dropped last year and the same might happen last year.

Is there an alternative to UCD? there is plenty of other fine colleges besides UCD!!!!


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## Satanta (25 Aug 2006)

cian8 said:


> Personally, for someone like your daughter I wouldn't recommend this route, she clearly has the ability to get in to the course (she is only 10 points short after all)



Nothing to do with the OPs original point, but had to comment on this. The points requirements have no connection to the ability of anyone to do a course. The points are simply related to supply and demand. If there are 100 places on a course and 600 people apply, the point cut-off is simply the number of points that the 100th highest person had! No relation to ability.
(Given the structure of the Leaving I'd also question if it is a true reflection of someone’s ability for a certain course. I admire our broad education, but should someone really need a higher mark in Art if they wish to study accounting for example.... that is however a very different debate)

For the OP.... the cut off for first choice offers is this Wednesday?? I believe (open to correction on this). Any course can drop in the second or third round offers, some are more likely than others to do so (especially if it has a high number of students - more chance of a few deciding to pursue other routes).

Regarding the IT route. Its not that she would gain the "10 points" from the course, it’s a separate route for entry if a student already holds a third level qualification. She would need to apply directly to the college following the IT (technically a cert or diploma or pass degree route as many of the ITs now offer courses as good if not better than the traditionally more prestigious Universities) route and sit some interviews etc. and hope to be accepted. 

It's too early for them to start panicking yet, however weighing up the options is always a good move. Have her get in touch with the career guidance teacher in her school; these people are paid to have a far higher knowledge of these things than any of us. She could consider doing the IT course (level 6/7 on her CAO) but it's far from her only choice at present.


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## cian8 (25 Aug 2006)

Satanta said:


> Nothing to do with the OPs original point, but had to comment on this. The points requirements have no connection to the ability of anyone to do a course. The points are simply related to supply and demand. If there are 100 places on a course and 600 people apply, the point cut-off is simply the number of points that the 100th person had! No relation to ability.
> (Given the structure of the Leaving I'd also question if it is a true reflection of someone’s ability for a certain course. I admire our broad education, but should someone really need a higher mark in Art if they wish to study accounting for example.... that is however a very different debate)


 
As you say its a different discussion but... 

I agree completely with what you are saying, however, what I meant (apologies if this wasn't clear) was that she has the ability to get in to the course, i.e. to get 10 more points next year. I wasn't making any comment on her ability/suitability for the course. Hope that clears that up!


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## MugsGame (25 Aug 2006)

> Offered second choice but really does not want to do this.



Well why did she put it as her second option then?! 

Presumably she has an offer from each list? If there's a chance she might be willing to do either of these courses, she should accept now. This doesn't commit her to the course, and doesn't prevent her getting a better offer in the 2nd round or choosing to repeat. It gives her more options, and she shouldn't deliberately close off any options at this stage. 

She should also apply for rechecks, as there's a good chance she will make up the 10 points. Guidance from teachers should be sought too though -- is it possible for a recheck to lower a grade?


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## Satanta (25 Aug 2006)

cian8 said:


> what I meant (apologies if this wasn't clear) was that she has the ability to get in to the course, i.e. to get 10 more points next year. I wasn't making any comment on her ability/suitability for the course. Hope that clears that up!


Ahhhh, apologies, seemed to get the wrong end of what turned out not to be a stick 

Given the falling number of students, the increasing number of course places and the current point drops being witnessed, I'm not even sure she would need to repeat in order to get the course next year...... but I personally wouldn't bank on something as risky as that!


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## cian8 (25 Aug 2006)

MugsGame said:


> is it possible for a recheck to lower a grade?


 
yes. it happens too.



Satanta said:


> Ahhhh, apologies, seemed to get the wrong end of what turned out not to be a stick


 
no problem, the debate you referred to is infinitely more interesting, but, irrelevant to the OPs problem, one to save for another day!


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## Itchy (25 Aug 2006)

cian8 said:


> I know that UL sends Civ Eng graduates to the University of Dundee to complete their degrees.


 
3 Years in UL Engineering and I have never heard of Civ Eng? You might be thinking of the Erasmus programme in relation to Dundee.

For the OP, your daughter was offered her second choice on the CAO, If she does not accept this she will not be offered any other courses below her second choice in the second round offers, i.e. she will be offered her first choice if there are places left in the second round.

What is the course? If the first and second choice are similiar courses:
a) in the same uni and 
b) run by the same department/college within that uni, then she may be able to transfer during or after her first year. Ring the faculty concerned but I would say that it would be no problem.

If you do a diploma/degree in an IT she should be able to transfer after the first year, if it is a similiar course. However, she must offered the course on the CAO form.

She can wait for the third round and see if there is a place on the course, however if she accepted her second choice she would be offered a place in the second round.

Or she can accept her second choice, get alright to good results, transfer to the first year of her wanted course but of course she will have to pay the full fees.

Hope this helps...


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## daveirl (25 Aug 2006)

She's got nothing to lose by accepting the offer. She can then apply for rechecks or if the points come down in the next round she will be then offered her first choice. 

You can always move up your list of preferences if the circumstances change. 

So in summary, you gain absolutely nothing by not accepting but you're still in the game if  you do accept.


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## cian8 (25 Aug 2006)

Itchy said:


> 3 Years in UL Engineering and I have never heard of Civ Eng? You might be thinking of the Erasmus programme in relation to Dundee.


 
oops i meant LIT, eeek i'll edit my original post!


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## deiseboys (25 Aug 2006)

The course I was talking about was a PLC course so I was informed today.  I have read about it but still dont understand what it is.  She wants to do biochemistry in UCC not UCD (miss type) was offered science in UCD.  The points for this course last year was 400 first round and 400 final round.


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## Sarn (26 Aug 2006)

Science in UCD is quite good (biased opinion as I did it myself). Is it a matter of UCC being closer to home or where all her friends are going? Reading UCC's prospectus it sounds like their degree is the same setup as UCDs (but I'm sure this is known already). 

If it is to do with low points for UCD that is simply because UCD have the largest 1st year intake compared to the other universities. Doing science allows you a year to decide what you want to do (I originally wanted to do chemistry and am now a pharmacologist (with a healthy dose of biochemistry under my belt)). When you reach a certain level in a biological science it all becomes the same, the same techniques are applied (i.e. skills are interchangeable) if you are a biochemist, pharmacologist, botanist etc.


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## deiseboys (27 Aug 2006)

thanks Sarn for your reply.  One question I would like to ask you is she going up the right path doing biochemistry, four years plus will there be good job opportunities, all her teachers have her brain washed about UCC, it would be closer than UCD, and they seem to think there are great job opportunities>


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## Sarn (27 Aug 2006)

Ultimately a degree is a degree. You can do a lot of things with it. I have a friend who did Arts doing computing work, somebody from science working in banking, teaching is another option.

Regarding scientific jobs, the government is pumping millions into science and technology. The large multinationals (Wyeth, Abbott etc.) here offer jobs primarily in manufacturing, process development. They are v. slowly setting up R&D facilities here. At the moment the bulk of irish research is done in academic institutions. Unfortunately the bulk of commercial research is done outside of Ireland.

To pursue a research career in science further qualifications beyond the basic degree would be highly recommended e.g. MSc, PhD (the so called 4th level). It is at this stage that the difference between the different biological sciences blur. At this stage you're doing it because you like it.

Looking at the points for some of the new courses in UCD I can't help but smile, pharmacology (450 points) and biochemistry and chemical sciences (330) can be entered into via science (325), all of which have the same 1st year course material i.e. the person doing science sitting beside the person doing pharmacology could both be doing pharmacology next year. With the falling interest in science at the moment the universities are cosmetically altering the desirability of different courses to draw in a percentage of higher academic achievers. The problem is that science is pretty tough and the low points don't reflect the academic ability necessary to complete it.

In my mind repeating the year to get into UCC Biochemistry (Biological and chemical sciences) would be a wasted year if there is a place in UCD available. The exact same qualification will be received and if your daughter pursues further education then it will make no difference whatsoever where the basic degree came from.


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## deiseboys (27 Aug 2006)

Thank you for your reply I will show her your reply and hopefully she will consider UCD.


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