# Rip Offs



## Lemurz (9 Aug 2005)

Thought it would be an opportune time to start a thread on Irish Rip-offs ............

- Government (overpaid & avoiding the real issues)
- Stamp Duty (3 Beds in Dublin are not luxury homes / we're not at war & we're not English) 
- VAT (overtaxed - one of the highest rates in Europe @ 21%)
- Houses (no need to discuss further)
- Cars (overtaxed & VRT contrary to the single market)
- Spirits, Wine, Beer (overtaxed & over-consumed)
- Doctors (cartel)
- Chemists  (cartel)
- Groceries Order & Supermarkets (cartel)
- Insurance (cartel)
- Petrol/diesel (cartel & overtaxed)
- Mobile phones (cartel)
- Eircom (monopoly & not investing in a major strategic asset)
- ESB (monopoly)
- Board Gais (monopoly)
- DAA Airport Charges (monopoly - Mick rules)
- Airport car parking (overpriced duopoly)
- West Link (overpriced car park)
- Waste charges (overpriced)
- Pubs (overpriced, but smoke free)
- Restaurants (overpriced)
- Hotels / B&B's (overpriced)
- Intermediaries (many over-paid for bad/poor/biased advice - mortgages, pensions, life assurance, investments, etc)
- Professionals/Advisors (paid on a percentage basis, rather than on value provided/work done - solicitors, auctioneers, architects, recruitment consultants, etc)
- to be continued


And the far side where citizens/taxpayers........
- don't pay taxes on their rental income
- don't pay taxes on their nixers
- get reduced prices from landlords/tradesmans via cash (tax evasion)
- Lie on their car insurance proposals about who is actually the main driver of the car and what address the car is kept
- Illegally copy CDs/DVDs/Videos/Software
- keep their cash income off-shore or in bogus non-resident accounts
- keep their hot money off-shore in property in Turkey/Croatia/Bulgaria etc
- bin charge spongers 
- TV license spongers
- Credit union tax evaders
- to be continued


And the positive side.........
- German Supermarkets (welcome Aldi & Lidl)
- Taxi De-regulation (not cheap but a least you can get one now)
- Aer Lingus (great fares, but still a WIP)
- Ryanair (the initiator, but not the gold standard)
- Northern Rock / Rabobank (deposit rates in excess of inflation)
- Internet based brokers (see below)
- Free schools
- to be continued

Note: Not all intermediaries, advisors, professionals are guilty of Rip-offs so please support those who offering the consumer good value:

Conveyancy Solicitors:
- Dermot Deane €900+vat (Ph: 231 4600)

Best deposit rates:
http://www.rabodirect.ie/
[broken link removed]

Low Cost Brokers (mortgage, insurance, investments, life assurance, etc):
http://www.labrokers.ie/
http://www.monitum.com/
http://www.123.ie/


Please post other Rip-offs & good deals for all to see!

I feel a consumer revolution on the way!!!


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## ajapale (10 Aug 2005)

Hi Lemurz,

Stamp duty is not a tax on luxury houses. It is one of the oldest taxes and is charged on instruments (that is, written documents).


from the channel 4 money website


> History of the tax Stamp duty was invented by the Dutch in 1624 and first levied in the UK in 1694 by William and Mary as: 'several duties on Vellum, Parchment and Paper for four years, towards carrying on the war against France'.
> 
> Like income tax, which was introduced to pay for the war against Napoleon, stamp duty proved to be such a nice little earner for the government that it was never repealed.
> 
> It was so successful that it remained even when its imposition brought about riots in the American colonies in 1765, most notably what became known as the 'Boston Tea Party'. Stamp duty is now the oldest tax administered by the Board of Inland Revenue.




 Your list includes at least two major categories.


 1)Taxes
2)Anti competitive behaviour.


 I dont know about anyone else but I find these very broadly defined discussions very difficult to get my head around and not very usefull.


 ajapale


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Aug 2005)

LeMurz

Don't mind AJ. You are dead right. Another long list of alleged rip offs will be really really useful to anyone who has not read any of the many threads on the subject on  Askaboutmoney, or to anyone who has not read any of today's papers, or to anyone who has not watched any TV recently, or to anyone who has not checked out Rip-0ff Ireland website or to anyone who has not listened to any of the talk radio programmes.

I am with you all the way. Let's roll back the economic clock. Wasn't it much better in the early 1980's when there was 20% unemployment and 50% emigration. We had no money so these evil profit maximising business people could not rip us off. Let's learn from the luddites and start a campaign to sabotage economic progress in this country. That will really teach these rip-off merchants. 

We can back to dancing at the cross-roads in the moonlight. 

Brendan


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## Lemurz (10 Aug 2005)

Brendan - Thanks for the thumbs up!

I believe your flashback to the 1980's might not be to far off!  We're no longer the low tax economy, we no longer have cheap labour and the IDA can't offer blank cheques anymore.  

Welcome The Celtic Slug!


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Stobear,

"Did I miss something here or was Brendan's post just dripping in sarcasm?"

The though had crossed my mind, but I don't believe Brendan would be sarcastic on AAM (after all he is the founder).  Maybe Brendan can confirm?

If so, then I'll start my own discussion board.  I know the Irish can be a lazy bunch, but that's no reason for the Governmant to be a lazy bunch also.  This is serious sh*t that affects us all !!!!

p.s. I' liked the bit in the Irish Times today about Minister Martin getting pressure on the groceries order - but no mention of the Eddie/AAM nappy protest.  Hope you all sent them (with contents)


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## z107 (10 Aug 2005)

Can we not have a reasonable economy without the rip-offs? The Irish economy has become rather heated over the last few years largely due to foreign investment. If there is a better deal elsewhere, I'm sure they'll leave our shores as quickly as they came. We really should be concentrating on indigenous growth.

To add to the list:
- Spirits. (alcohol, not ghosts)

I find that most rip-offs are actually due to high taxes. It's the government ripping us off! Those crazy pay increases in the public sector isn't doing inflation any favours either.


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## RainyDay (10 Aug 2005)

Yeah - Let's rant about a few more of most common rip-off's round here;

- How many Irish rip-off taxpayers by not paying the proper taxes on their rental income, or their nixers income?
- How many Irish rip-off taxpayers by conspiring to get reduces prices from the landlord/tradesman via tax evasion?
- How many Irish rip-off insurance companies (aind other customers of insurance companies) by lying on their car insurance proposals about who is actually the main driver of the car and what address the car is kept at (to get the benefit of 'country rates' over Dublin rates).
- How many Irish rip-off owners of creative content (CD's / DVD's / software) by illegal copying (and keep some the paramilitaries in pocket money while doing so)?
- How many Irish ripped off other taxpayers in the 80's and the 90's by keeping their cash income off-shore or in bogus non-resident accounts?
- How many Irish rip off other taxpaayers in the naughties by keeping their hot money off-shore in property in Turkey/Croatia/Bulgaria etc?

Should I continue, or do we not want to hear about the underbelly of rip-off Ireland?


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## Lemurz (10 Aug 2005)

Cheers Rainyday!

Keep em com'in.


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## stobear (11 Aug 2005)

Did I miss something here or was Brendan's post just dripping in sarcasm?


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## Madra (11 Aug 2005)

- Children's allowance rip off. I dont get any just cos I've no kids!


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## Carpenter (11 Aug 2005)

Madra-if you think the measly €140 or so euro a month is a windfall for any parent I'm afraid you are very much mistaken!  By the time you pay for nappies, food, clothes and all the baby gear you actually need there aint no change!  And then if you decide to put your child into a childcare facility while you work to make up the shortfall, well then you're talking real money!  But I am NOT complaining because they are worth every cent!!


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## ClubMan (11 Aug 2005)

Spongers who don't pay their bin charges and _TV _license like the rest of us. The thousands of _Credit Union _[broken link removed].


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## Madra (11 Aug 2005)

> By the time you pay for nappies, food, clothes and all the baby gear you actually need there aint no change!


Micheál Martin will be doing a carboot sale soon for savings on some of these. 


> And then if you decide to put your child into a childcare facility


School is free (well apart from the rip off of having to pay for the extras like having the jeep to bring them to school).


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## Debasser (11 Aug 2005)

Brendan, surely theres room for those of us who want to see an end to the various anti-competative practices & rip offs in this country without being labelled luddites or communists. I agree with you that the country is in far better shape than its was 20 years ago & I'd hate to ever see us going back that way. In fact I would consider myself very pro-business & its amazes me we've come so far in spite of the above practices. Imagine how great the country could be if we really got our act together. Surely the aim should be to stamp out the rip offs but striving to make it easier to run/start up a business. I don't believe they are mutally exclusive ideals.


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## ClubMan (11 Aug 2005)

When tackling a new task it's normal to prioritise and to take an 80:20 type approach in order to deal with the most pressing issues first rather than trying to take a "big bang" approach and achieve perfection in one go. As such what would you say are, for example, the top three "rip offs" that need to be addressed and that, having been addressed, would yield the most benefit for the most people?


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Aug 2005)

Debasser said:



> Brendan, surely theres room for those of us who want to see an end to the various anti-competative practices & rip offs in this country without being labelled luddites or communists.


 
The problem is that there is a huge difference between something which is expensive and something being a rip-off or even anti-competitive. 

This is a booming economy, so of course things will be expensive.

There are very few rip-offs. But people love shouting about the rip-offs and as a result, they fail to recognize the real rip-offs. 

I am simply asking, somewhat sarcastically I agree, if people would prefer the cheaper prices prevailing in most economies which are less successful than ours. There were far few complaints about rip-offs in the early 1980's. 

The luddites were a very much maligned group. I am not so sure about the communists, but I don't think I mentioned them in my original post. But while you raise the subject, I seem to remember a placard at the bin charge protest from the Communist Party of Ireland-Marxist-Lenninist group. Or was that at the anti-incinerator march? Come to think of it, they were at both. As were the Sinn Féiners and Socialist Workers Party. 

Brendan


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## z107 (11 Aug 2005)

> There were far few complaints about rip-offs in the early 1980's.



There might have been fewer complaints, but it doesn't mean there were fewer rip-offs. This is because:

1. We have greater price transparency. People can now directly compare the prices in Ireland to our european neighbours thanks to the Euro.

2. More people have access to the internet and can see more easily the rip-offs.

3. Most people who'd be in a position to buy stuff, probably wouldn't be living in Ireland - they'd have long gone to the UK or America etc. (So they wouldn't be complaining)

4. At last, Irish people are starting to complain!

(Did you make many international phone calls in the 80s?)


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## Lemurz (12 Aug 2005)

Don't you just love a gooooooood heated discussion!

FYI - I'm not a socialist, communist, luddite or whatever else you fantasize about!

I'm an capitalist FCA (like Brendan!), but want to improve the country we live in!  The problem in Ireland, is that most of the capitalists are responsible for the rip-offs along with their lobby groups, who all have the Government in their back pocket.  Only consumer pressure can change this - and I mean real consumer pressure!!!  Nappies ain't a bad start!!

BTW - Thanks to "umop3p!sdn" & "Debasser" for your support.  Seems we're still in the minority?

TIOCFAIDH AR LA - The Celtic Slug


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Aug 2005)

Lemurz

If you want to improve the country you live in which is what I want to do as well, then it would help if you were a bit more discriminating. Recognize the difference between high prices and rip-offs. Recognize that things have improved dramatically. Recognize that there is real competition in most sectors. 

Identify some of the real rip-offs that do exist and then do something public about them. Listing out every conceivalbe industry and product serves no purpose except to reinforce the false image that all Irish businesses rip off their customers.

Even better, as a capitalist you should have the resources to set up a business and start providing a service or product. It will have to be so profitable as there are so many rip-off industries which will be so easy to compete with. Check out Eddie Hobbs' latest tip - cement is €45 in Germany and €85 in Ireland. He has also helpfully calculated the cost of transport at €10 a ton. You don't need to be an FCA to work out the gigantic profits to be made by shipping that stuff over to Ireland.

Brendan


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## Debasser (12 Aug 2005)

I'm going to have to go through future postings with a toothpick! I'm not pro-Lemurz or Brendan on this one. I probably lie somewhere in between.Brendan is right, we've got ourselves into hysterics in this country over the rip off culture & its probably no where near as bad as it seems but thats the tabloid culture for you. Personally I think its the system that needs to be changed(but thats another thread in the making!). Business will be business & try to generate money. Thats a fact & its proven to be the best way to increase wealth & prosperity for all of us by keeping us in jobs. Surely as a nation we should adopt a "we take out business seriously" policy. i.e. we make it as easy as possible to run & maintain new ventures but anyone who willfully abuses this will be dealt with. This is changing, We're not quite there (sounds like a Bertie slogan!) but hopefully it won't be too long..


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## Carpenter (12 Aug 2005)

School is free (well apart from the rip off of having to pay for the extras like having the jeep to bring them to school).[/QUOTE]

Don't have a jeep, baby isn't that heavy, thankfully.....


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## daltonr (16 Aug 2005)

I get more disturbed very time I read a thread about Rip-Offs on AAM. The very people who I thought would have been very pro-consumer and possesing enough intelligence to see what's happening in the country are also the People who most strongly defend the current state of affairs. 

Brendan, Rainyday and Clubman (all of whom I respect regardless of occasional specific areas where we disagree) invariably ride to the defense of the country and won't tolerate any suggestion by posters that there's something rotten in the State of Ireland.

Surely to goodness it's clear to the preverbial donkey with a glass eye up his ass (thanks for that image Eddie) that what people feel is a rip-off is often not caused by excessive profits for businesses but by a very badly put together set of taxes, tax incentives and other policies. A government so concerned with it's own profits and it's own economic figures that it is all but ignoring the impact of it's policies on society and on peoples day to day lives.

Rather than attack every poster to thinks the cost of living in Ireland has gotten out of sync with the quality of life wouldn't it be better if the learned people on this forum helped explain the causes of Rip-Off Ireland rather than deny that it exists at all?

Rip-Off Ireland is REAL. It is significantly more expensive to live here than in other countries, and that extra cost of living is not fully justified by a greater quality of life. THAT is Rip-Off Ireland. It manifests itself in Restaurants, Pubs, Cinemas, Department Stores, Supermarkets, etc. Which is why they attract the complaints. 

I've had the good fortune to visit a lot of countries in 2005. I've also had the good fortune to discuss the state of those countries with the people who live there, and the only country so far that I would place below Ireland in terms of Quality of Life for someone with a reasonable level of income from a reasonably good job would be Malaysia. 

Yes if you have no job or any intention of getting one Ireland would suddenly jump up the charts. But I suspect there aren't many such people posting on AAM which is why we get a certain bias from posters in their attitude to the country.

I'm not claiming to be able to fully assess quality of life in a brief visit, but I think the level of contentment and pride that citizens have about their country is a reasonable barometer or Quality of Life when combined with quantitative things like Tax and access to housing, prices in shops, restaurants etc. 

I also think you can tell a lot about a country by looking at its houses and cars and cities and so on. I've had the good fortune to have dinner not just in restaurants but in peoples homes, and talk to them about their lives.

Ireland would rank above all of the countries I visited in terms of it's economic performance. If we're not carefull this country will become the equivalent of Hetty Green (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetty_Green). So concerned with our economic bottom line that we completely lose sight of what actually matters.

If a consumer visits another country or checks out a website and sees that some items are 100% or 500% more expensive in Ireland than in other countries then it's valid to lay a charge of Rip-Off Ireland. For most consumers they will consider the blame lies with the person providing the product or service. That's understandable. They are right that there's a rip-off but wrong about who's to blame.

Let those who think that Rip-Off Ireland is a myth show how life is so much better in Ireland that this higher cost of living is justified.   To Evade the charge of Rip-Off it's not sufficient to explain higher prices, you also have to justify them.

I'm also concerned that someone with Brendan's intelligence thinks that we have to choose between Ireland of the 80's and Ireland of the 00's.   That's a very shaky bit of reasoning.   The choice is between Ireland of the 00's and everywhere else of the 00's.

-Rd


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## shnaek (16 Aug 2005)

Here here. Back in the 80s when people complained we had crap roads and politicians answered that roads cost money and we had none - they had a valid point. But now we do have money and we are still getting piss poor excuses for the mess that many things are in. Is our health service better today than the 80s (not including technological advancement of course)? Is it as good as Finland, for example? 

The real disappointment for me in Ireland is that we have had a booming economy for 10 years and we got SFA to show for it, except a bunch of people who made a stack of money. It is a shame our leaders hadn't the foresight to look at the best health service in the world, the best education system in the world, the best quality of life in the world etc. and aim for that when our economy started to gather pace. Whether we would have achieved it or not is a matter for debate, but at least we could have been proud of our efforts and our politicians efforts. Alas politicians have been more concerned about lining their and their business partners pockets, and pulling the wool over the eyes of Johnny Public.


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## ClubMan (16 Aug 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> Clubman (all of whom I respect regardless of occasional specific areas where we disagree) invariably ride to the defense of the country and won't tolerate any suggestion by posters that there's something rotten in the State of Ireland.


Er, can you point out precisely where I, for one, "invariably" do this and don't "tolerate" others' views please?


> Rather than attack every poster to thinks the cost of living in Ireland has gotten out of sync with the quality of life wouldn't it be better if the learned people on this forum helped explain the causes of Rip-Off Ireland rather than deny that it exists at all?


And who is doing the attacking here? Are you sure that you're not confusing reasonable/reasoned challenges and counter views to what you believe with attacks?


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## RainyDay (16 Aug 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> Brendan, Rainyday and Clubman (all of whom I respect regardless of occasional specific areas where we disagree) invariably ride to the defense of the country and won't tolerate any suggestion by posters that there's something rotten in the State of Ireland.


Not true - I won't tolerate any suggestion that that EVERYTHING is rotten in the state of Ireland.


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## daltonr (17 Aug 2005)

> Not true - I won't tolerate any suggestion that that EVERYTHING is rotten in the state of Ireland.



If anyone ever made that suggestion you could have decided whether to tolerate it or not.   I've never suggested EVERYTHING is rotten.   

On one thread I mentioned some things I thought were good about Ireland and got into trouble for doing that because apparently it's not valid to point out something good and still have problems with the country.

-Rd


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## Lemurz (17 Aug 2005)

Definitely two sides starting to appear on this one, and a few in no man's land.

I agree with "daltonr" & "shanek".  I spend more time working abroad than in Ireland these days.  Many countries I'm gald to see the back of, but everythime I come home it just amazes me how we're Ripped Off!

I've refused to relocate abroad and missed many career opportunities in my company.  I'd never have considered leaving Ireland in the past and relocating abroad, but I must confess that is no longer the case.  They are many locations offering far better quality of life with good value for money as I have found out from the many collegues who took the opportunity and never looked back.  I for one may be taking the boat in the future (by choice) unlike many of those before me. 

Rip Off Ireland exists and is run by a government who are more concerned about lobby groups and vested interests than the citizens they purport to represent.

Fair play to Eddie for doing something positive about it!

His facts may not be 100% accurate, but show me a lobby group whose consultant's report is?


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## ClubMan (17 Aug 2005)

Lemurz said:
			
		

> Fair play to Eddie for doing something positive about it!
> 
> His facts may not be 100% accurate, but show me a lobby group whose consultant's report is?


Isn't being economical with the truth a form of rip-off regardless of what others do? Perhaps _Eddie _would claim that he was 200% accurate?


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## Brendan Burgess (17 Aug 2005)

daltonR

I don't think you are reading our posts very well. I have highlighted consumer issues and rip offs over the years and will continue to do so. Rainyday has listed out the major rip-offs in Ireland. I know that in his real life he is active in trying to deal with many of these. ClubMan has helped thousands of people get better value through his contributions on AAM.

It's like the car insurance rubbish some years ago. Everyone shouted at the insurance companies ripping off their customers. And it stopped people looking at the real costs of high insurance - false and exagerrated claims and a cumbersome legal profession.

To deal with rip-offs, you have to recognize them. If everything is labelled a rip-off, then there will be no focus and no improvement. Let me give you one example from my own experience. The Irish Nationwide has caused huge damage to its customers by its lending practices. People have lost their homes and have been under huge stress which has seriously affected their quality of life. I have campaigned actively to resolve this serious problem and have had some success in counteracting it. But the biggest problem in dealing with it is the attitude that all banks are the same and are ripping off their customers. There is simply nothing to compare with the Irish Nationwide, yet our reform campaigns are greatly damaged by the dilution of focus on many very insigificant issues. 

You continue to confuse high prices/bad value with rip-off. I have explained as often as I can that the high prices are due to the economic boom. For some reason, you seem much more comfortable shouting "Rip-off" every few minutes. 

Brendan


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## Teabag (17 Aug 2005)

Jaysus I dont know how we ever got our freedom from the English !

With all the infighting and moaning that we Irish are so good at, no wonder it took us 700 years.

Have to agree with DaltonR - The likes of Brendan, Rainyday and Clubman are extremely intelligent in my opinion and much better at argumentative prose than most of us - HOWEVER instead of debating whether there is or is not a rip-off culture in the Emerald Isle, could they perhaps take a few minutes to outline some of their ideas on how we as consumers could tackle this rip-off culture (on the insane notion that it actually exists). I for one would love to hear their ideas.

Tbag


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## ClubMan (17 Aug 2005)

Teabag said:
			
		

> The likes of Brendan, Rainyday and Clubman are extremely intelligent in my opinion and much better at argumentative prose than most of us - HOWEVER instead of debating whether there is or is not a rip-off culture in the Emerald Isle, could they perhaps take a few minutes to outline some of their ideas on how we as consumers could tackle this rip-off culture (on the insane notion that it actually exists). I for one would love to hear their ideas.


Thanks for the compliment but I mustn't be that good at the oul' prose given that you seem to have missed my main point - I do concede that there are individual rip-offs but I do not concede that we have a pervasive rip-off culture/society/economy. Of the consumer rip-offs that I do see I reckon that many of these can be best tackled by highlighting them individually (rather than just moaning about and attributing them to some generalised and nebulous "rip-off Ireland" idea), reporting them to the relevant statutory authorities, chasing these authorities up if they don't act, educating people as to how to recognise and deal with real rip-offs and by shopping around and making informed decisions.


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## mmclo (17 Aug 2005)

List away...the more repetition the better, surely if we are pro-consumer the readers can make up their own minds as to whether it's a rip-off or not. 

My contribution...airport car parking, particularly long term Air Rianta variety, although new alternative Park Rite (?) not much better over long periods. Try to use Aircoach is a solutuion but not always feasible

Maybe somebody could define "rip off" surely it implies a price which is more than that justified by a normally functioning market


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## Teabag (17 Aug 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Of the consumer rip-offs that I do see I reckon that many of these can be best tackled by highlighting them individually, reporting them to the relevant statutory authorities, chasing these authorities up if they don't act, educating people as to how to recognise and deal with real rip-offs and by shopping around and making informed decisions.



Sounds logical but could you give me an example product/service and show how you would apply your recommendations.


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## ClubMan (17 Aug 2005)

Well one obvious example might be financial products. I have seen blatantly false/misleading advertising on the part of financial institutions in the past which I have reported to the _ASAI _and/or _IFSRA _and action was taken to prematurely terminate the offending advertising campaigns. Well, eventually given that I had to chase these up with the relevant authorities who initially rejected the complaints as unfounded. In one case _PTSB_ misleadingly claimed to offer the highest rate demand deposit account even though _Northern Rock _were offering a better rate and in another _MoneyPenny Financial Services _published newspaper ads seemingly purporting to be official notices on behalf of local authorities and aimed at local authority/shared ownership tenants who might want to buy out their properties. In both cases the offending avertising campaigns were halted. These were real rip-offs because they threatened to mislead the public and militate against making an informed buying decision and I'm sure that it is to the benefit of the wider public that action was taken to end the misleading ad campaigns prematurely.


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## Teabag (17 Aug 2005)

That is commendable work on behalf of the consumer Clubman.

But how would you advise me to tackle one of my own perceived rip-offs (e.g. fixed line rental from Eircom where I have no choice but to use their service or stamp duty or car tax or doctors fees or a bottle of wine).


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## RainyDay (17 Aug 2005)

Teabag said:
			
		

> But how would you advise me to tackle one of my own perceived rip-offs (e.g. fixed line rental from Eircom where I have no choice but to use their service or stamp duty or car tax or doctors fees or a bottle of wine).


If the perceived rip-off's are really important to you, you are more than capable of coming up with your own ways of addressing them. As long as you sit back and wait for someone (Clubman, Govt, EH) to address them for you, they won't get sorted.


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## ClubMan (17 Aug 2005)

Teabag said:
			
		

> That is commendable work on behalf of the consumer Clubman.


Thanks - it was primarily on my own behalf though because the advertisements pissed me off so much that I bothered to get off my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language and do something about them. But I see you aren't satisfied with just those examples, eh?



> fixed line rental from Eircom where I have no choice but to use their service


Internet telephony/_VoIP _(e.g. _Skype _etc.) packages which can interface to normal land and mobile services. Some mobile packages and call usage profiles may work out more cost effective than paying for fixed line rental plus calls. Be one of the first 100,000 subscribers to [broken link removed] offer and get "free" line rental forever.



> or stamp duty


On what? Does stamp duty affect you day to day? If it's property then there are exemption thresholds that can be used to avoid it. If it's on shares then buy on exchanges other than the _ISE _with lower stamp duty rates or buy _ETFs_ which are not subject to stamp duty. I'm not sure about unit linked/trust funds - I seem to recall that stamp duty is subsumed into the charging structure so it's still payable.



> or car tax


I am not a car owner so I don't really know about this one - sorry.



> or doctors fees


Shop around. My _GP _charges €40 per visit and does not charge for follow up visits, additional prescriptions etc. I have heard of _GPs _who charge a lot more than this and who charge for every visit, prescription, test result etc. People may say "oh - you can't shop around for a _GP_" but I challenge them to tell me why not? 



> or a bottle of wine.


Shop around. There is a lot of choice to be had in terms of variety, quality and price in my experience. Buy in bulk locally or online from a reputable source. Stock up while travelling. To be honest I would consider wine to be a relatively discretionary and arguably a luxury purchase so I wouldn't consider high prices (not that they all are) in this area to be a rip-off.

I trust that these suggestions are of some assistance to you?


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## z107 (18 Aug 2005)

Interesting suggestions. 

However, you have yet to address the root cause of Rip Off Ireland, which is high taxes.


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## Lemurz (18 Aug 2005)

Just thought I'd point out, while all of us over taxed citizens argue the pros and cons of a "rip off" Ireland, our "supposedly" elected representatives are on an (not so well deserved) extended holiday (and are probably laughing) at our expense!!!


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

umop3p!sdn said:
			
		

> However, you have yet to address the root cause of Rip Off Ireland, which is high taxes.


That's because I don't concede that, overall, we pay high taxes. Myself and my wife (joint/aggregated assessment) pay c. 17% of our gross income in income tax and _PRSI_/health levy which I certainly don't think is excessive. We pay 13.5% (?) or 21% VAT on (mostly) non essential purchases and 0% on essentials. We pay c. €152 (which I don't consider a tax) on our _TV _license. We pay €2.50 a go for bin tags (on which we get some tax relief) and put out a bag every three weeks to a month. We paid no stamp duty on our (new) house ten years ago and received mortgage interest relief while we had a mortgage. We have written off capital losses (_eircom_) against subsequent capital gains (_First Active_) leaving us with a very small _CGT _bill last year. I am maximising my pension contribution tax/_PRSI_ relief. My wife is receiving _Maternity Benefit _at the moment. When I was unemployed for a few months after being made redundant a few years ago I claimed _PRSI _based _Unemployment Benefit _until I returned to work. All going well on the pregnancy front we will receive _Child Benefit _from September. We are both maximising our _SSIA _contributions thereby maximising our 25% tax credit/top up. We have written off medical expenses for tax relief over the last few years. We have made charitable donations sufficient to allow the recipients to claim back tax that we have paid. I suspect that the only way that we may be slightly atypical is in not owning a car. Where is the tax rip off there?


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## z107 (18 Aug 2005)

These are the 'visible' taxes we are all aware of. Trouble is, as soon as you go to spend any of your already taxed income, you'll end up paying hidden taxes, duties, charges and levies. These are the cause of Rip Off Ireland.

Pick an item and consider all the duties and taxes you'll end up paying. All the taxes etc that the business that sells you the item incurs, will be passed on to you. Just as well you don't have a car, because petrol alone has about 3 different taxes and duties - not including petrol station corporation taxes, public liability Gov levies etc, etc... It really adds up.


(Very few goods are 0% VAT, take a stroll around Musgraves)



Best of luck with the baby


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

umop3p!sdn said:
			
		

> These are the 'visible' taxes we are all aware of. Trouble is, as soon as you go to spend any of your already taxed income, you'll end up paying hidden taxes, duties, charges and levies. These are the cause of Rip Off Ireland.


Can you give me a simple, everyday example please?



> (Very few goods are 0% VAT, take a stroll around Musgraves)


What about all those items (usually "essential" food and household items) marked 0% on till receipts?



> Just as well you don't have a car, because petrol alone has about 3 different taxes and duties - not including petrol station corporation taxes, public liability Gov levies etc, etc... It really adds up.


We don't have a car because we don't *need *a car and choose to walk, cycle (not so much in recent years though) or travel by public transport when we need to at which point we can avail of several bus routes, train and _Luas _locally. I guess this would fall into the category of "intangible quality of life issues" that people have been talking about (usually negatively) previously in this thread? We have the _Phoenix Park _and the _National Museum _almost literally on our doorstep. We have plenty of other parks and public amenities within walking distance. We live within spitting distance of the sex offenders and other miscreants in _Arbour Hill Prison _and have never had any problems with the place which seems to be very well run and excellently maintained (in particular the scenic grounds that front it).

Before anybody thinks that we live in some Utopian corner of _Dublin 7 - _we don't - but we certainly don't believe that we live a life totally oppressed by high taxes and rip-off prices and spend our time moaning about how bad we have it.


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## Lemurz (18 Aug 2005)

Clubman,

In the interest of equity I pay..........

- 48% tax/PRSI on the majority of my income
- 12.5% VAT on ESB/GAS (necessities)
- 21% VAT on phone costs, petrol, parking, white goods (so called luxury items?)
- TV licence €152 (+€30 p.m. minimum to watch anything decent on it)
- €6 per week for bin tags/collection (included in income tax until 2003)
- stamp duty @ 4% on a basic 3 bed semi
- no CGT payable (unfortunately!)
- pension relief @ 48% (if I last long enough to see the payout)
- no children, so no maternity benefit or child allowance
- never been unemployed (thank god), but the payout is miserable
- have an SSIA (once off & biggest mistake Charlie ever made)
- significant health expenses (even after VHI, DDS & tax relief)

Not to mention....
- DIRT on any savings I have
- VRT, VAT, Motor Tax, & Tolls to drive a car on sh*te roads
- Excise duty & VAT on any beer/wine I can afford to consume
- BIK on any benefits I receive
- etc.


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

Lemurz said:
			
		

> - 48% tax/PRSI on the majority of my income


I very much doubt that this is correct. Add your total tax (after deduction of tax credits) and _PRSI_/health levy and then express this as a percentage of your gross income to get a more meaningful figure. That's what I did to arrive at our c. 17% figure even though my marginal income tax rate is 42% and my wife's is 20% while I am on class A1 and she is on A0 (?) _PRSI_. Use [broken link removed] if you need assistance with the calculations.



> - TV licence €152 (+€30 p.m. minimum to watch anything decent on it)


But you don't *have* to pay either.



> €6 per week for bin tags/collection (included in income tax until 2003)


Service charges to the local authority should qualify for [broken link removed] on an ongoing basis and not just up to 2003. You can even [broken link removed] for the relevant relief.



> - never been unemployed (thank god), but the payout is miserable


The personal rate of _Unemployment Benefit _is €148.80 per week for an single adult with additional payments for dependents. You say that this is misrerable but you suggest that your _TV _license at €152 *per annum* is onerous. That doesn't really add up.



> - significant health expenses (even after VHI, SDDS & tax relief)


What's _SDDS_?



> - DIRT on any savings I have


You mean _DIRT _on any interest that your savings earn - not quite the same thing. There are [broken link removed] that are _DIRT _free up to certain limits in case that helps. 



> - Excise duty on any beer/wine I consume


Again, more of a discretionary/luxury purchase than an essential in my opinion (and I like my tipple I can tell you!).



> - BIK on any benefits I receive


Do you really think that _BIKs _should be exempt from tax/_PRSI_? If so why?



> - etc.


What etc.?


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## Lemurz (18 Aug 2005)

Cheers for the prompt reply Clubman! (insomnia, like me?)

- Just checked the 2004 P60 and the average rate works out at 40% for tax & PRSI (not quite 48%, but not 17% either)
- TV licence I must pay, even if I don't watch it
- Bin charges qualify for tax relief, but I didn't have to pay them until 2003, so I view this as a form of double taxation as they were centrally funded before 2003
- €148 per week unemplyment benefit wouldn't even cover my mortgage
- SDDS = subsided drug discount scheme or whatever it's called (i.e. €85 per month on drugs)
- Credit Unions have been known to go bust, so I'm not prepared to put my hard earned & hard taxed income there.
- I agree BIK's shouldn't be free of income tax, but they were until 2004 so it's a hard pill to swallow!
- etc! (my way of covering the other forms of taxation I've forgotten about tonight!)

Over & out for now!


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

Lemurz said:
			
		

> - Just checked the 2004 P60 and the average rate works out at 40% for tax & PRSI (not quite 48%, but not 17% either)


So you think that you're being ripped off but initially inflated the alleged rip-off by 20% until you were challenged and consequently rechecked it? Are you sure that you're not ripping yourself off? A common theme with those who cry "rip-off" at every hand's turn seems to be an inability to deal with figures accurately. I still suspect that your calculations are incorrect. Post figures if you like and I personally will crunch them for you.


> - TV licence I must pay, even if I don't watch it


But not if you don't have one. A seemingly outrageous proposition to most people these days but if €152 p.a. is such an onerous charge to some people then surely desperate measures can be countenanced?


> - Bin charges qualify for tax relief, but I didn't have to pay them until 2003, so I view this as a form of double taxation as they were centrally funded before 2003


Why not view it as a hidden discount before 2003 where somebody else was subsuming the cost of dealing with your waste?


> - €148 per week unemplyment benefit wouldn't even cover my mortgage


That wasn't my point. If you think that €148 per week is miserable then you must have a more blasé attitude to money than I do. Some people may also qualify for .



> - SDDS = subsided drug discount scheme or what ever it's called (i.e. €85 per month on drugs)


I presume that this is the scheme formerly (?) known as the _Drug Refund Scheme_. How does that work again? You don't pay for drugs at all or the excess over €85 per month or something like that? Can you explain where the rip-off is here?


> - Credit Unions have been known to go bust, so I'm not prepared to put my hard earned & hard taxed income there.


Which _Credit Unions _are you referring to? Banks have also been known to go bust by the way. Where do you put your money so?


> - I agree BIK's shouldn't be free of income tax, but they were until 2004 so it's a hard pill to swallow!


This is not correct. Most _BIKs _were subject to income tax before this but the onus was on the employee to declare this liability. The fact that many people did not is an example of *a genuine rip-off (perpetrated by some citizens on others)* since those who were compliant tax payers had to make up the slack. Since 2004 most _BIK _income tax is deducted and remitted by the employer and most _BIKs _are also subject to _PRSI _(not sure if this was the case before the changes). As far as I know the fundamental tax treatment of most _BIKs _did not change other than that the employer now deducts and remits the amount due instead of it being left to the employee to self assess. Note that there are still a small number of _BIKs _that are not subject to tax/_PRSI_ deductions. For more on the relevant rules see [broken link removed].


> - etc! (my way of covering the other forms of taxation I've forgotten about tonight!)


Sleep on it so.


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## dam099 (18 Aug 2005)

Lemurz said:
			
		

> - Just checked the 2004 P60 and the average rate works out at 40% for tax & PRSI (not quite 48%, but not 17% either)


 
You earn EUR 190,000 per annum and you feel ripped off in Ireland?


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

dam099 said:
			
		

> You earn EUR 190,000 per annum and you feel ripped off in Ireland?


Was this mentioned elsewhere or something? If you are reverse engineering the salary from the "gross tax" percentage above then bear in mind that, as far as I know, _Lemurz _is married.


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## RainyDay (18 Aug 2005)

umop3p!sdn said:
			
		

> Interesting suggestions.
> 
> However, you have yet to address the root cause of Rip Off Ireland, which is high taxes.


Well, all those high taxes are going to build up the fund that will act as a safety net to support all those people who are recklessly borrowing against their homes. I take it you don't really want the nasty old 'big Govt' to provide such supports?


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## Teabag (18 Aug 2005)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> If the perceived rip-off's are really important to you, you are more than capable of coming up with your own ways of addressing them. As long as you sit back and wait for someone (Clubman, Govt, EH) to address them for you, they won't get sorted.



In fairness RainyDay, I have tried to address the perceived rip-offs (mainly thru letters to appropriate politicians and one nappy. But as a lone voice I feel I am not making an impact. I think Clubman has some very interesting insights and suggestions. I am sure you do too. Dont fall off the high horse though.


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## MissRibena (18 Aug 2005)

I know this isn't really adding much to either side of the debate but would just like to say that I'm really enjoying ALL the contributions on this and the Eddie Hobbs threads. I know these discussions are not the primary function of AAM but they are the bit I value most.

While I am not happy with the government spends my taxes (at all!) and believe there is room for huge improvement in public services, on a personal level, I don't feel ripped off.  I think it is a shame that the focus of what's wrong in the country keeps returning to the price of alcohol like some kind of Irish Paddy Cliche.

I do feel I am exploited as a motorist between VRT, VAT, Road Tax, NCT, Excise & VAT on petrol, toll roads and no access to alternative transport (public or private) or even alternative fuels.  Even so, if I really was honest, I could probably find a job earning less closer to home and avoid having a car but the lifestyle change (being housebound a lot) is not something I'm prepared to accept.

But other than on the transport side of things and incompetant government, I don't think we are being "ripped-off" half as much as people think.  A lot of the tax "rip-offs" mentioned by people, I think, are a sign of us being dragged into a mature tax paying society after years of tax-dodging and a punitive tax regime.  In fact, I think a lot of the grumbling about the price of things (very often discretionary and luxury items) is just growing pains in a country that tries to come to terms with massive economic and social change in a very short space of time.

I know I'm not low paid or old or sick and maybe if I was I would see the harsher side of life here.  I do see my boyfriend (here on a work permit) earning much less than me and he manages to make the system work for him at every turn by being smart with every euro he spends; he doesn't live the life a monk and has savings that are almost incredible (and its the same story with his friends). If someone with less than perfect English and no recognised qualifications is doing so well here, it cannot be all bad.  He doesn't think Ireland's a rip-off; he just thinks we are careless with our money.

Rebecca


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## fobs (18 Aug 2005)

Have been reading both this thread and the other threads about ripoff and although can see valid points on BOTH sides of the argument I feel that I am shifting more towards _Clubmams views_ than those of the "rip-off moaners".

I am married with 2 kids and although we have high costs such as mortgage,childcare,utility bills etc.. we have more positives than negatives. I would rather live in Ireland than anywhere else where there is still a strong sense of community ( at least where I live!)

The "celtic Tiger" has enabled our family to own a lovely house (though mortgaged),own 2 cars, take holidays in Ireland and abroad regularly, clothe ourselves well,eat VERY well etc...

All the people who graduated from my year in Collage are doing equally well. When I graduated you had very few choices in jobs and there was a lot of immigration but now i see more and more of my former school/collage classmates returning to Ireland for the quality of life they have here compared to other countries.
I have recently met 2 former classmates who were abroad for years and are sorry they didn't return sooner.

Look at all the economic migrants who are coming here to make a living. They wouldn't come here if it wasn't a country offering them the potential to work and raise their kids in a booming economy.

I for one love to travel the world but wouldn't consider living anywhere else!


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## mmclo (18 Aug 2005)

Isn't there two seperate discussions here


1. Public services/taxation do we get value for money etc. (bin charges, stamp duty, public spending). This is largely political, down to decisions made by politicians and civil servants i.e. tax individualisation local service charges and is somewhat mediated by the democratic process. As we all have different situations there will always be winners and loosers when looking for the common good

2. Normal commerce and trade. Here the issue is whether there is excessive profiteering or charging more than the market would normal lead to. Usually due to market distortion (dominance, lack of comeptition) and regulation.


The second is more relvant to the rip -off debate I think


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## MissRibena (18 Aug 2005)

Yes but I think the two become interwoven because a key point in the discussion of the costs of goods in the marketplace is the assertion that there are so many hidden or indirect taxes contributing to the higher price (eg petrol, wine etc).

Also you could argue that the government's spending sprees are contributing to a rise in inflation when they pay over the odds for goods and services (civil service pay, benchmarking, inflated building costs etc).  For instance, I believe that their mismanaged spending in the health services (i.e. loads of money spent with not a whole lot to show for it) not only provides the tax payer with poor value for money but drives the cost of private healthcare even higher regardless of how much "competition" there is in that marketplace and the fact that private healthcare is supposed to be "optional".  

Any kind of thorough discussion of your second point will necessitate some transgression into your first.

Rebecca


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## Teabag (18 Aug 2005)

fobs said:
			
		

> Have been reading both this thread and the other threads about ripoff and although can see valid points on BOTH sides of the argument I feel that I am shifting more towards _Clubmams views_ than those of the "rip-off moaners".



Yeah amazingly after reading Clubman's posts and posts from others, I am starting to believe that things aren't as bad as I originally thought. There are options and its up to the consumer to pursue those options. 
Sure, there are rip-offs but it also true that there are ways and means of counter-acting them. Its an enlightening debate.


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## Humpback (18 Aug 2005)

Teabag said:
			
		

> Sure, there are rip-offs but it also true that there are ways and means of counter-acting them. Its an enlightening debate.


 
To take the discussion back to Eddie Hobbs' propositions on his programme, I think was he was trying to get across was that there are a lot of ways in which we as consumers are being excessively penalised for consuming in this country (Excise duty PLUS vat on alcohol for example) where there are no real means of counteracting them.

And by counteracting, I don't agree that abstension and denial is a form of counteracting. Therefore, telling me not to drink pints is not a valid means of counteracting the double taxation of excise duty and vat on the price of a pint.


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> And by counteracting, I don't agree that abstension and denial is a form of counteracting. Therefore, telling me not to drink pints is not a valid means of counteracting the double taxation of excise duty and vat on the price of a pint.


Why is this not a valid strategy to counteract this alleged rip-off? If you insist that it's not a valid strategy then how about home brew as a way to cut expenditure on alcohol if you feel that you are being ripped off? Or stocking up while travelling abroad (including _NI_)? Don't most countries charge the equivalent of excise duties and _VAT _on alcohol?


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## Humpback (18 Aug 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Why is this not a valid strategy to counteract this alleged rip-off? If you insist that it's not a valid strategy then how about home brew as a way to cut expenditure on alcohol if you feel that you are being ripped off? Or stocking up while travelling abroad (including _NI_)? Don't most countries charge the equivalent of excise duties and _VAT _on alcohol?


 
If I want to enjoy something, but something is limiting my pleasure in enjoying that something (i.e. excise duty and vat on a pint), not having that pleasure at all is not the way to increase my pleasure in that something.

I don't see how I can answer your WHY? question any further. Not having something isn't going to increase my pleasure in enjoying that something. 

It's a catch-all answer by people such as yourself throughout this discussion. Such as your comments of "if you don't like what's going on in Ireland, leave!!!". 

However, your other solutions on the booze thing are valid, and it's such responses that are much more useful to this discussion on peoples perceptions of "ripoff Ireland". Much more valuable than much of the discussions above.

Another example. Would it not be a whole lot more useful to begin a thread on "getting the most when using your car and save on petrol costs" rather than slagging off those who may have to use a car and telling them to walk or cycle? I'll even start.

1. Buy at Tesco, or wherever is cheaper in your location.
2. Do your shopping at Tesco beforehand and get the extra discount.
3. Go to work earlier and avoid traffic.
4. Join a gym close to work and go home later in the evening, or leave earlier.
5. Use www.irishfuelprices.com
6. Car pool.
7. Walk or cycle when you're popping out for milk/egg/sugar or the Sunday paper.
8. Ensure your car/engine/tyres are in optimal condition to ensure best fuel efficiency.
9. Do you really need a big car? Would smaller car or smaller engine be more suitable?
10. If you need a big car, would the Toyota Prius suit?

See, 10 options for people to think about rather than your simplistic condescending response of walk or cycle.


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## hotlips (18 Aug 2005)

*Re: Rip Offs - weekly bin tags*

You should be able to put out your trash less often by reducing, re-using and recycling and thus pay much less than 6 euro per week. I for one am delighted that pay-by-weight and pay-by-bag were introduced. Paying a flat charge of 300 euro per year to Dun Laoghaire CoCo was much more of a rip-off.  We pay less than half that amount now. If income tax covers waste collection, then there's no incentive for those people who are not environmentally aware to reduce. (I'm not suggesting that anyone posting here is not environmentally aware but there are many people out there who couldn't give a damn how much or what they dump as is plainly obvious from the contents spilling out the bins on my street.) 

I guess income tax could have been reduced when waste charges were introduced but I doubt that would satisfy everyone either. When Europe forces Ireland to introduce pay-by-use for water, the whole debate will start again.


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> It's a catch-all answer by people such as yourself throughout this discussion. Such as your comments of "if you don't like what's going on in Ireland, leave!!!".


Did I say that? Where?



> However, your other solutions on the booze thing are valid, and it's such responses that are much more useful to this discussion on peoples perceptions of "ripoff Ireland". Much more valuable than much of the discussions above.


I don't think that discussion of the fundamental issues (i.e. whether or not there is a pervasive rip-off culture in _Ireland_) are any less valuable than practical suggestions as to how people can avoid alleged rip-offs (whether we agree that they are such or not).



> Another example. Would it not be a whole lot more useful to begin a thread on "getting the most when using your car and save on petrol costs" rather than slagging off those who may have to use a car and telling them to walk or cycle?


Who slagged off anybody and told them to do this? I simply outlined the situation in which myself and my wife find ourselves. I did not slag others off for owning cars or tell anybody that they should walk, cycle or use public transport if they don't want to.



> See, 10 options for people to think about rather than your simplistic condescending response of walk or cycle.


Where did I tell anybody else to walk or cycle? I don't know what I did to merit being accused of being "simplistic and condescending" either but you might want to review  while you're here.


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## MissRibena (18 Aug 2005)

Some of the taxes that get on peoples' goat such as those on refuse, alcohol and even motoring, the government would claim are part of a wider strategy to discourage certain types of activity to favour others.  Like reusing/recycling rather than binning and to cut down on alcohol consumption (i.e. encourage abstinance!).

I'm a bit cynical about whether the increased charges are a policy tool or just a handy means of increasing the exchequer take because we rarely see taxes decreased on items/activites the government would like to encourage.  Often there is far too much stick and not enough carrot; for example, in the countryside, there is very rarely an alternative to the car when it comes to transport but they keep increases the various tax hits on motorists.  Also, I've often argued that quitting aids for nicotine addiction should be subsidised partly or wholly from the take on ciggarettes and tobacco if the government is really serious about stopping people from smoking.

Rebecca


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

*Re: Rip Offs - weekly bin tags*



			
				hotlips said:
			
		

> You should be able to put out your trash less often by reducing, re-using and recycling and thus pay much less than 6 euro per week.


Yeah - we have been composting kitchen waste and disposing of plastics/bottles/etc. at the local _Bring _centre for years now. Combined with the monthly _Oxigen _green bag collection (paper, cardboard, tin/aluminium cans etc.) we find that we only need to put out a refuse sack every three to four weeks (€2.50 a go). We previously paid c. €140 p.a. fixed for refuse collection but now, on the pay as you go system, are likely so spend less than €50 p.a. (gross - i.e. before tax relief).


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## Humpback (18 Aug 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I don't know what I did to merit being accused of being "simplistic and condescending" either but you might want to review  while you're here.


 
Apologies ClubMan, it was one of your fellow Administrators, Brendan, who made the comment "what I really cannot understand is that you have been harping on about how horrible Ireland is to live in compared to every other country in the World and yet you are still here. "


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

Fair enough - thanks for the clarification. Just to be clear did not slag people off or tell them that they should walk/cycle either as mentioned here.


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## daltonr (18 Aug 2005)

_



			It's a catch-all answer by people such as yourself throughout this discussion. Such as your comments of "if you don't like what's going on in Ireland, leave!!!".
		
Click to expand...

_


> _Did I say that? Where?_




_As it happens you did offer me exactly that advice on another thread a while back but for the life of me I can't find it.   But for what it's worth the Seach Engine is a lot better than on the old site._

_Incidently I don't hold the suggestion to leave against you.  I know deep down you'll be sorry to see me go.  _

_-Rd
_


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

If I recall correctly I simply asked you about how your plans to move abroad (which you had mentioned a couple of times from a good while back here on _AAM_) were going and if you were on your way soon particularly since the setup here seemed to be getting to you so much. I certainly don't think that I suggested that if you didn't like it here that you should leave. However I am open to correction on this as I can't remember for sure.

Update: seems that I did (facetiously) suggest that you should go here when you asked for reasons why you should stay but I think that there was another post of mine in which I dealt slightly more seriously with this issue.

Update 2: I also alluded to this issue (again slightly facetiously) here. I'm still sure that there's another one somewhere.


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## daltonr (18 Aug 2005)

> I certainly don't think that I suggested that if you didn't like it here that you should leave. However I am open to correction on this as I can't remember for sure.


 
I think the general message was I should feel free to go and not hang around on your account.      Of course you know that our sparring matches are one of the things I'll miss most.   

-Rd


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> Of course you know that our sparring matches are one of the things I'll miss most.


Why - are you moving to somewhere like _North Korea _where you won't be able to use the net or something?


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## daltonr (18 Aug 2005)

> Why - are you moving to somewhere like _North Korea _where you won't be able to use the net or something?


 
No, but if/when I do leave I'll be a lot less concerned with whether or not Ireland pulls up it's socks. I'll have no reason to contribute to AAM. Also I don't think I'd really have much right to comment if I wasn't living here.

Who knows you might cross my path on some of the other parts of the internet I frequent. If you're a budding magician, or collect stamps there could be years of argument still to come.

-Rd


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## ClubMan (18 Aug 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> Who knows you might cross my path on some of the other parts of the internet I frequent. If you're a budding magician, or collect stamps there could be years of argument still to come.


Naw... I reckon you're safe so. Unless you start frequenting the Bohs message board. When are you off?


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## dam099 (18 Aug 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Was this mentioned elsewhere or something? If you are reverse engineering the salary from the "gross tax" percentage above then bear in mind that, as far as I know, _Lemurz _is married.


 
Yes I was reverse engineering so it is just an educated guess, if he is married he could earn more than this.


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## daltonr (18 Aug 2005)

Don't worry, It'll be a while before I go. It's a bloody complicated business this moving lark. If I'd done it 10 years ago it would have been very simple.

I reckon realistically it will be sometime in 2006 at the earliest. It might never happen. There are other people to consider.    A 1 or 2 year trial move is probably realistic as a first step.   And even if I liked Ireland I think I'd like to try 1 or 2 years in Singapore to really understand it.   

Oz, the US or Canada are the other options.   Then there's the question of who'll have me.   If I get stuck I suppose I have an EU Passport.

After that who knows?   Mary Harney might suggest that you all eat cake and the revolution sparked by Eddie Hobbs may have transformed the country.

-Rd


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