# Amazon & Amazon Prime



## trajan (16 Nov 2016)

Amazon Prime automatically converts 30-day trial memberships to a paid membership at the end of your free trial.

In my case this term & condition was hidden away at the end of a long boring acknowledgement email.

€92 was deducted from my account using my Amazon buyer/seller payment details.
No notification before, or receipt after, this transaction.
When I called Amazon they said refund would only be effected in "7 working days".

Like most people I have important bills to pay each middle and end of month.
The bank never allows me to draw money from the same account used to pay Amazon when I have insufficient funds. In fact even where funds exist in the account it is not uncommon to have payment refusals at petrol stations due to network or maintenance issues at the bank system then.
I find it very strange that at the time when the Amazon Prime payment was effected there actually was not enough funds in my account to meet the €92 demanded.
Yet the bank went ahead and put my account overdrawn to pay the Amazon Prime demand.

Many questions arise in this situation.
But one question embraces them all.

Does any body regulate e-commerce in Ireland ?


----------



## Firefly (16 Nov 2016)

Same thing happened to me. I use Amazon all the time though and have easily saved the €92 but am still a bit miffed - not at them but at myself...all in the Ts & Cs I suppose.


----------



## Kenbo (16 Nov 2016)

trajan said:


> Amazon Prime automatically converts 30-day trial memberships to a paid membership at the end of your free trial.
> 
> In my case this term & condition was hidden away at the end of a long boring acknowledgement email.
> 
> ...


I had the same problem and got a full refund so sneaky from a so called reputable company.Guerrilla tactics by a hidden email that no one ever reads anyway got my money back but no apology where is the principal of informed consent?


----------



## Páid (16 Nov 2016)

trajan said:


> Amazon Prime automatically converts 30-day trial memberships to a paid membership at the end of your free trial.


Amazon warn you multiple times before, during and after you signup what the service will cost once the free trial ends.


----------



## Steven Barrett (16 Nov 2016)

Any subscription service that requires credit card details to get the trial period always converts you automatically. It is sneaky but you will find they are covered by putting in the the T&C which no one ever reads.


----------



## trajan (16 Nov 2016)

_Amazon warn you multiple times before, during and after you signup what the service will cost once the free trial ends.
_
No they don't.
Nor even send you an e-receipt for the money they've snatched from your account.
Nor do they tell you - till you've actually tried and failed to do it - that video service is not available in Rep. of Ireland.
Nor God knows how many other things you've a right to know.


----------



## mathepac (16 Nov 2016)

I used the trial Prime and I was happy that Amazon did a decent job forewarning me about the charges if I didn't cancel. I cancelled and they still ask me to participate in Prime every once in a while. I must check emails registered with them.


----------



## Andy836 (16 Nov 2016)

If you'd a problem with the TV service not working then why didn't you cancel the trial?

There are no "free trial periods" that do not convert to paid subscriptions. 

While you may think the question is "does anyone regulate e-commerce?" when in fact the question should be "is e-commerce suitable for you?"

Similarly, the Bank didn't do anything. You should read up on how direct debits work. The agreement is between you and the company. The Banks only facilitate the payments - its fully automated. Large over drawings will be stopped but not small ones. 
You can dispute the payment with your Bank and they're obliged to refund you immediately and then they dispute it with Amazon's DD Sponsor Bank who refund your bank. It's up to you whether you want to (a) fill out the paper work and deny having any agreement with Amazon and wait a few days to be repaid or (b) wait 7 days to get your refund direct from Amazon.


----------



## trajan (16 Nov 2016)

_
 If you'd a problem with the TV service not working then why didn't you cancel the trial?
_
Didn't know it had to be cancelled. In my mind it was just one of those many things that lapse. 

_ There are no "free trial periods" that do not convert to paid subscriptions. 
_
Not many_. _But most of these do not self-convert. A conscious decision must be made if I want to update to a paid subscription for most other things I see, a button pressed or whatever.
_
While you may think the question is "does anyone regulate e-commerce?" when in fact the question should be "is e-commerce suitable for you?"
_
*You* might not see anything odd about e-businesses sneaking subscription assent off their customers.
But I believe that most other people have neither the time nor interest in tooth-combing Ts & Cs.
Frankly, your remark here betokens a dog barking at his own doorstep. 
For those of us employed (decently) within and without the e-commerce sector, the need for above-board processes is self-evident. It stops customers from harm by both e-traders and themselves when shopping online.
_
Similarly, the Bank didn't do anything. You should read up on how direct debits work. The agreement is between you and the company. The Banks only facilitate the payments - its fully automated. Large over drawings will be stopped but not small ones. _

It 's clear that in this case the bank's willingness to pay a demand in excess of available funds equates to a intentional varying of the normal refusal to pay in such circumstances. These days banks may be  happy to pay out DDs when customers are not immediately good for it. (It triggers a €12.50 charge at least partly payable to them.) Yet none of us on normal debit cards can have any confidence to drawing from an ATM without having full cash on account.
_
 You can dispute the payment with your Bank and they're obliged to refund you immediately and then they dispute it with Amazon's DD Sponsor Bank who refund your bank. It's up to you whether you want to (a) fill out the paper work and deny having any agreement with Amazon and wait a few days to be repaid or (b) wait 7 days to get your refund direct from Amazon. 

_


----------



## Páid (17 Nov 2016)

What did you think would happen at the end of the trial?

This is a selection of where you are warned in advance of signing up.

[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]

I signed up with them some time ago on a free trial and cancelled (within the 30 days) when I found out that you cannot avail of their video service or the shipping benefits prime members get in other countries.


----------



## Steven Barrett (17 Nov 2016)

Just had a look at amazon prime trial. I have a button to click on with my billing details. Underneath it says: 



> After your free trial, Amazon Prime is just £7.99/month. You can cancel your membership anytime.
> By signing up, you acknowledge that you have read and agree to the Amazon Prime . At the end of your free trial, you authorise us to charge your card or another available card on file £7.99/month.  about other Prime pricing options. Your Prime membership continues until cancelled. If you do not wish to continue for £7.99/month, you may cancel anytime by visiting 'Manage Prime Membership' in 'Your Account' and adjusting your membership settings.



Pretty clear to me...


----------



## trajan (17 Nov 2016)

Below is my Amazon UK Prime confirmation email.
You can see where the placement of the "fair warning" was.

_

  Hello MR XXXX, _
_
Welcome to Amazon Prime, the best value in online shopping. With your 30-day free trial, you'll enjoy unlimited FREE One-Day Delivery on millions of items, instant streaming of thousands of movies and TV episodes, unlimited streaming of over a million songs, unlimited photo storage, exclusive 30-minute early access to Lightning Deals, access to over a million Kindle Books and the opportunity to read pre-release titles with Kindle First for no additional cost every month. Shop, read, watch, listen and enjoy - it's all included in your membership.

Thanks,

The Amazon Prime Team


 Get Started  



*Movies included in your Prime membership* *See more* 






[     A BIG LOAD OF MOVIE / TV SHOW GRAPHIC LINKS HERE GOING DOWN ONE PAGEFUL.
     ASKABOUTMONEY DOESN'T ALLOW ME TO POST THESE.]





*If you have a free trial of Prime, your trial will automatically convert to a paid membership at the end of your free trial. You can avoid conversion to a paid membership by adjusting your membership settings in Your Account within 30 days of signing up. *

*[ my red highlighting above, not Amazon's ]*

If you paid your membership fee as soon as you joined Prime, you may cancel within 14 days of signing up. If neither you nor anyone authorised by you to use your account has taken advantage of any Prime benefits we will refund your membership fee in full. If you or anyone authorised by you to use your account has taken advantage of Prime benefits during this 14-day period, we will issue you a prorated refund based on the number of whole months remaining in your membership. To cancel within the 14-day period, just adjust your membership settings in Your Account or use this cancellation form.

Your membership has an annual duration and will be extended automatically. If you dont want your membership to extend automatically, you may change this in Your Account at any time by selecting end membership and you wont be charged for the following membership period. You can always request a refund of your most recent membership fee if neither you nor anyone authorised by you to use your account has taken advantage of any Prime benefits in that membership period.

For any complaints or queries, please contact our Customer Services.

Amazon[DOT]co[DOT]uk is a trading name for Amazon. For further information about Prime, please refer to our Amazon Prime Terms and Conditions.

Please note: this message was sent from a notification-only address that can't accept incoming messages. Please do not reply to this message. If you have any questions and wish to contact us, click here._ 
==============================X==============================


----------



## MrEarl (17 Nov 2016)

Hello,

The key question asked by the original poster seems to remain unanswered:



> Does any body regulate e-commerce in Ireland ?





On a personal level, I'm struggling to agree with the original poster on the specific issue with Amazon, because it seems that once you give your credit card details it's obvious that they will start charging you, if you don't cancel in time.  I would have thought the obligation was clearly on the customer to cancel after the free trial.

LinkedIn try something a little bit similar, offering 30 days free trial of some of their premium services.  Again, it's a clear opt out (cancel) situation, but to be fair I think from memory that they send you a reminder a couple of days before the scheduled payment is due.   That should be the norm, if you want to provide top customer service, but might not be the norm when it comes to best commercial practice.


----------



## Firefly (17 Nov 2016)

I've just cancelled my Prime membership. On the last screen I was given 2 options, the latter being (which I went for):

_You will lose access to Prime benefits and will be refunded £79._

The other option (didn't record it) was along the lines of staying with Prime until Oct 2017 where Prime would then end and my card for that point onwards would not be charged.


----------



## Firefly (18 Nov 2016)

The reason I was offered a refund is I didn't use any Prime services. Received the email below after my cancellation was completed:

Dear xxx,

_As you requested, your Amazon Prime membership has been cancelled. Since you haven't used your Prime membership benefits, you should see a refund of £79 on your statement in 5 to 7 business days. Depending upon your bank, if you have not yet been charged for Prime, you may not see a refund on your statement. Please note, this doesn't include your banks processing time. _

_Thank you for trying Prime. 

Warmest regards, 

Amazon.co.uk




_

Pretty decent if you ask me...they could have quite easily kept the money.

Also noticed on their page that Prime is down from £79 to £59 at the moment.


----------



## trajan (18 Nov 2016)

€92 finally restored to my a/c. I'm left with overdrawn a/c charges of €4.44 . . . 

It's wrong that Amazon Prime UK covers Ireland if they are not giving the same benefits to Irish customers. No video, no free delivery for us.


----------



## Leo (18 Nov 2016)

The T&Cs of Prime are pretty clear in terms of the limitations of a number of the services outside the UK. It actually calls out in a number of places that delivery restrictions apply to certain UK postcodes, and is not available at all on international orders.



> Same-Day (Evening Delivery) Selected items sold or Fulfilled by Amazon.co.uk. Selected postcodes in the UK. You can check if your postcode is eligible by clicking here..





> Prime Video gives members within the UK unlimited streaming of movies and TV episodes. For more information, go to .





> Kindle Owners' Lending Library gives members within the UK access to borrow one book per month at no additional cost.


----------



## Ceist Beag (23 Nov 2016)

OP I really don't think you have a valid argument here.
You say it is not clear that you pay once the trial is over and you think Amazon do not warn users about this. 
As others have already pointed out above, I don't see how Amazon are unclear on this or are hiding anything. It is very clear you will be charged after the trial month is up and it is so easy to ensure this does not happen. In my case I simply went into my account and clicked one button to say Do Not Continue once the trial period is up. 

You also say there is no free delivery for us. That again is simply untrue. I've placed 8 orders this week with Amazon, free delivery (via Prime) on each one.


----------



## Chris2014 (9 Dec 2016)

Pretty much every button you click warns you of the charges. 

To say in this day and age that you had no idea that when the trial ends you would be charged is just nonsense. I'm guessing you took the trial to save some postage on one purchase thinking you were outwitting Amazon but then ended up feeling like you were outwitted and lied to reduce your embarrassment.

Also to get a refund no problems then continue to bad mouth them is not fair at all.


----------



## elcato (9 Dec 2016)

I signed up a few days ago and they pointed me to the settings where you change the membership from automatic to just close after free trial. While I was wary about the sign up it was still clear you needed to unsubscribe.


----------



## postman pat (11 Dec 2016)

trajan said:


> _Amazon warn you multiple times before, during and after you signup what the service will cost once the free trial ends.
> _
> No they don't.
> Nor even send you an e-receipt for the money they've snatched from your account.
> ...



This is true,, it happened me when I said i wanted next day delivery and I didnt even want Amazon prime,after a bit of a search of Amazon I found my prime account and cancelled my "free" 30 day trial.
I like Amazon mostly but this is sharp practice!.


----------



## Páid (12 Dec 2016)

postman pat said:


> This is true,, it happened me when I said i wanted next day delivery and I didnt even want Amazon prime,after a bit of a search of Amazon I found my prime account and cancelled my "free" 30 day trial.
> I like Amazon mostly but this is sharp practice!.


It's not sharp practice on Amazon's behalf. You signed up to Amazon Prime in order to avail of next day delivery and must have been aware of the free trial.


----------



## postman pat (12 Dec 2016)

Ok Paid, sorry cant do the fada...
First of all  how do you know what I must/must not be aware of..are you all seeing?...Im just telling of my experience and the experience of many others.
Alot of people see "free next day delivery" and just click on it, without seeing or wanting some video channel that is NOT available in Ireland.

Pat


----------



## Páid (12 Dec 2016)

You wanted to avail of the free next day delivery with Amazon Prime. You signed up to Amazon Prime even though you didn't want it and then cancelled within the 30 days. Presumably your item was delivered free of charge yet you still think it is sharp practice on Amazon's behalf.


----------



## huskerdu (12 Dec 2016)

The same thing happened me yesterday.

I was asked if I wanted to sign up to a free 30 day trial of Amazon Prime to get free delivery. I said NO, as the package already qualified for free delivery.
I clocked NO twice on two different screens and I still got an email telling me that I have signed up to the free trial.
The email does not state that if I don't cancel, I will be automatically charged.
It is definitely poor customer relations designed make sure that the customer is not made aware of what they are signing up for,

Of course, I will cancel, and I  regularly have little sympathy with people who sign up for stuff withour reading the T&Cs but anyone taking Amazons side on this is defending shoddy practice by a large and very rich corporation.


----------



## Páid (12 Dec 2016)

Is this what you are talking about?

[broken link removed]


----------



## Páid (13 Dec 2016)

Then why did you even signup to Amazon Prime?


----------



## postman pat (13 Dec 2016)

I have tried to explain it to you....so I will just leave it at that


----------



## Firefly (13 Dec 2016)

huskerdu said:


> I was asked if I wanted to sign up to a free 30 day trial of Amazon Prime to get free delivery. I said NO, as the package already qualified for free delivery.



A lot of things I buy qualify for free delivery to the UK and for this I find Parcel Motel excellent. I had a large item delivered last week and as it didn't fit into the PM locker I collected it from the main depot in Cork. No additional charge - 3.95 to get a big box delivered from the UK - great stuff.


----------



## MrEarl (13 Dec 2016)

Firefly said:


> ....I had a large item delivered last week and as it didn't fit into the PM locker I collected it from the main depot in Cork.....



Not to be confussed with Parcel Motel's main depoit in the capital 

... Obviously, there must be a number of pick up points around the country.  Very good service alright, only problem is that they became overwhelmed with stuff recently and were experiencing delays of several days (but to be fair, they seem to be working through the backlog by agreeing to send stuff to alternative boxes, or send items out by delivery van or bus etc).

An Post are trying to get in on the action and while they are cheaper (think it's €3.50), are sadly offering a secondary service when you consider that you must collect your item at a post office during post office opening hours and possibly also have to stand in a long queue, if you go at a busy time etc.


----------



## Ceist Beag (14 Dec 2016)

ParcelMotel certainly seem to be better at getting their name out there but just in case people aren't aware, there is another similar offering from DPD called Parcel Wizard which differs in that they will delivery to your home/work address so you don't have to go and collect it from a box. They're similar in price (think it might be €3.85 per delivery) so it might suit some better than the Parcel Motel offering.


----------



## elcato (14 Dec 2016)

Ceist Beag said:


> ParcelMotel certainly seem to be better at getting their name out there but just in case people aren't aware, there is another similar offering from DPD called Parcel Wizard which differs in that they will delivery to your home/work address so you don't have to go and collect it from a box. They're similar in price (think it might be €3.85 per delivery) so it might suit some better than the Parcel Motel offering.


Good to see the competition but on a personal level I prefer the PO box style delivery of Parcel Motel. I find that I'm seldom home for delivery and it also stops the nosebags in work checking up on what you are buying.


----------



## Páid (14 Dec 2016)

Amazon Prime Video is now available in Ireland - http://www.independent.ie/entertain...-prime-video-arrives-in-ireland-35293487.html

Signup here - www.primevideo.com

But beware - there is a 7 day free trial. When this free trial ends you WILL be charged €2.99 each month for the first six months and then €5.99 per month thereafter.


----------



## trajan (17 Dec 2016)

Páid said:


> Amazon Prime Video is now available in Ireland -
> 
> Signup here -
> 
> But beware - there is a 7 day free trial. When this free trial ends you WILL be charged €2.99 each month for the first six months and then €5.99 per month thereafter.



Just to close the case, so to speak.

I did get my refund eventually inside 2 weeks.
But it was in my opinion still a sneaky one by them.
Amazon is fine if I am buying - payment goes out quick, delivery is smooth and prompt compared to those crooks in AbeBooks. I also appreciate the useful reviews of texts submitted by buyers, even if some of them are crowd publicity for a book that many readers would see as not very well written.

But once you start selling on Amazon you encounter a different beast entirely.
Never have I got payment within 3-4 weeks of the sale, despite having dispatched the item within a couple of hours of the notification complete with photos of mail receipts, package, customs label, etc.
Every impediment against payment is used. Card / bank account not valid, account not in balance, address, postcode, etc. Postcode is a sure thing in blocking payments to Ireland as the credit/debit card payments system is not yet configured to handle our new eircodes. And well they know it at Amazon !

Amazon needs to give more satisfaction to their sellers. A lot of the stuff I've sold was very useful to the end-buyer as these books were out of print and crucial to the buyers' commercial/research needs.
And I personally made little out of it bar the satisfaction of seeing the books into a suitable home.
Amazon got their fees, naturally. I don't think that unfair as their portal brought all parties together. But payment ought be prompter.


----------

