# RTE Leaders Debate - Claire Byrne live - Monday 15th



## Jumpstartdublin (15 Feb 2016)

a joy to watch a well managed debate - with 7 leaders. Well done Claire and RTE. the much hyped Tv3 version regrettably was nothing but pure unprofessional.


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## Gerard123 (15 Feb 2016)

Claire doing an excellent job alright.


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## rob oyle (15 Feb 2016)

But the debaters are not bringing anything to the discussion that they haven't mentioned ad nauseam before.


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## Clonback (15 Feb 2016)

Lucinda scores well on crime.


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## Delboy (15 Feb 2016)

Clonback said:


> Lucinda scores well on crime.


Scored very well on crime. Looks like Renua are taking over as the party of 'Law and Order'....FG vacated that title a long time ago


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## Clonback (15 Feb 2016)

Kenny gets buried on crime by Claire Byrne


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## Clonback (16 Feb 2016)

Brian Hayes claim that Kenny dominated the debate is laughed at by the panel.
Imagine the FG director of elections making such a stupid comment.


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## noproblem (16 Feb 2016)

Like a classroom of bold boys and girls with a teacher who wanted us all to see she might use the cane if they were bold or didn't do what they were told. She should have given Kenny and Burton 6 of the best across the bottom for repeating the same thing over and over again and not answering what they were asked. A very boring event.


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## Purple (16 Feb 2016)

noproblem said:


> Like a classroom of bold boys and girls with a teacher who wanted us all to see she might use the cane if they were bold or didn't do what they were told. She should have given Kenny and Burton 6 of the best across the bottom for repeating the same thing over and over again and not answering what they were asked. A very boring event.


Claire Byrne with a cane spanking people. You have a dirty mind.


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## thedaddyman (16 Feb 2016)

only saw the first part of it but I have to say Stephen Donnelly was the most impressive from what I saw. However since they are not running where I am it's all rather irrelevant. I also read this morning that he seemed to slip back when it moved to non-economic issues. Labour look doomed and in fairness, if you are of a socialist mind-set why would you vote for them since they are FG lite. ?


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## Purple (16 Feb 2016)

thedaddyman said:


> . Labour look doomed and in fairness, if you are of a socialist mind-set why would you vote for them since they are FG lite. ?


Because they are both left wing parties?


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## Gerry Canning (16 Feb 2016)

What is clear is that the small boys in the debate have tapped into a groundswell of dissatisfaction with the way the  {4 Amigos.gf/FF/Lab/SF} sell politics.

I don,t see voter anger as a good policy .
I expect the Big 4, to sell the feeling in their final debate, that they need to temper their message into long -termism not the electoral cycle.

eg.I noted that when Renua said Health has to be long term there was applause. 

If I am correct, the party that sells a longer -vision V promises and todays complaints will get the last floaters.
It was refreshing to see Clare control the 4 Amigos ,but maybe the reason was the 4 Amigos realised WE wouldn,t accept more tantrumism?


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## jim (16 Feb 2016)

I presume you mean 3 amigos Gerry?

FG and Labour are a joke. Kenny and Burton said the same stuff we ve heard many times before and time and again avoided Claire's direct questions. Burton does this thing when she starts to answer a questions by starting off with "and"...and then she rhymes off another rehearsed piece of crap without answering the question...its so transparent.

In fairness adams passion comes across and seems authentic to me.

Donelly was the smartest man on the debate and would be a great taiseach.

Martin is a great debater and is quite statesmanlike, He also comes across to me as being passionate and authentic and i like some of his ideas but unfortunately for him he is FF.

Creigton to me seems like an angry angry woman. but she is relatively young and is feisty so would be good to have in the dail.

boyd barrett - has some good ideas.

id like to see a left wing socialist progressive government. Out with the old and in with the new.


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## 44brendan (16 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> id like to see a left wing socialist progressive government.


Oxymoron???


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## Gerry Canning (16 Feb 2016)

Jim ,

I meant 4 Amigos because when all is said they are playing the same fiddle .

FG/Labour = Both are trumpeting that they oversaw more jobs and less debt = a fact, that they repeat and repeat..
Sinn Fein = Sees what is wrong (don't we all) and big on aspirations but where is the money to come from = will we accept more taxes.
Social Democrats , I sense a broadening of (old) politics with them = I liked him.
F/F,   good speeechifier = heard it before.
Renua, the lock em up party = far too glib.
PBF/AAA. Good people = but impractical.


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## dereko1969 (16 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> I presume you mean 3 amigos Gerry?
> 
> FG and Labour are a joke. Kenny and Burton said the same stuff we ve heard many times before and time and again avoided Claire's direct questions. Burton does this thing when she starts to answer a questions by starting off with "and"...and then she rhymes off another rehearsed piece of crap without answering the question...its so transparent.
> 
> ...



He may be passionate but he's clueless about his own party's policies, really poor when put on the spot with the question on rural policies. Also seemed to have extended James Connolly's life by 7 months when he quoted him as stating on New Years Eve 19(and)16 when he was executed in May!

Donnelly was very good, best of them for me.

Burton was poor, she really needs to up her game for the last leader's debate and start putting some clear water between Labour and Fine Gael, like stating all the achievements that Labour got that wouldn't have happened with a FG only Government - Equality Referendum, increase in Minimum wage, protection of Social Welfare payments etc


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## 44brendan (16 Feb 2016)

R Boyd Barrett proposal re Council housing was not contested by anyone. I.e. Councils go back to building social housing themselves and his statement was that historically this was a self-funding scheme in that the associated rents came back into the Councils to fund further housing. However from my brief knowledge of Council housing I understood that this was totally untrue in that the rental income from these houses was way below even the cost of looking after the collection/repair/upkeep of these properties.
This is either true or not true. If it is true why was he not challenged/ If it is untrue why did the Government disband the old schemes?
That's the difficulty with this type of debate. We get very glib commentaries, proposals and counter proposals with no unbiased opinion on what is realistic and what is rubbish.
Why are politicians allowed to spout off any old rubbish on TV in an effort to get elected without being challenged. Why is there no detailed analysis of the various proposals put forward in yesterday's debate. We are back to the old habits of measuring the effectiveness of a politician by his ability to perform in public. Then we feel disappointed when let down by those same politicians when elected.
Is it any wonder that politicians regularly exaggerate and lie coming up to elections as we have consistently shown an aversion to hearing the truth when its unpalatable?
Luckily I am long past the time when these debates have any effect on my voting preference.


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## Purple (16 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> id like to see a left wing socialist progressive government. Out with the old and in with the new.


Isn't that what we have now?
They are left wing and they have made significant social reform.


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## Agent 47 (16 Feb 2016)

Imagine if Mary Lou was there instead, Joan B would be dead and buried, the two hate each other. I am real worried about the next few years, our taxation rates (bands) for middle income earners are scandalous and coupled with high SVRs have squeezed the life out of the economy. There is certainly no recovery where i am.


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## jim (16 Feb 2016)

dereko1969 said:


> he's clueless about his own party's policies,



I disagree - adams knows his own policies inside out as does any of the leaders which is no big deal that's the minimum you would expect of them. anyone can learn spiel off by heart. adams may be a bit scatter minded when articulating them when on the spot - who cares about that though. I value other things in the person that is going to run my country.



Purple said:


> They are left wing and they have made significant social reform.



I think FG are right wing (ish) I could be wrong...anyway my point is we need to get rid of fg/labour in gove and get new smart, young, feisty, passionate, authentic (as possible), original ideas people in there.



Agent 47 said:


> Imagine if Mary Lou was there instead



I don't like mary lou on a personal level but I think she would be a good person to be involved in running the country - shes got balls and I believe is a lot more honest/authentic than burton who is way past her cell by date and is out of touch....similar to why I want Creighton in there - don't like her but I think shes got the right stuff to be at least in the dail.


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## jim (16 Feb 2016)

Gerry Canning said:


> Sees what is wrong (don't we all) and big on aspirations but where is the money to come from = will we accept more taxes.



silly question. where is any of the money coming from for any of the parties...its all coming from the same place increased taxes in one way or another or spending cuts or a combo...the problem is you haven't informed yourself as to where they will get the money from. I haven't read their manifesto but I suspect if I or you did you would find the answer. don't jump on the media bandwagon of "sf don't know their policies, don't have policies, doesn't add up, not costed"...in fairness to them its all the same as any party...this is just a cheap shot. we need to stop taking silly cheap shots and look at facts and look to what might make the country better.


maybe my comment above is an oxymoron - I haven't a clue what I was trying to say..all I know is I want  a change of scenery from what we currently have - call it what you like


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## 44brendan (16 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> maybe my comment above is an oxymoron - I haven't a clue what I was trying to say..all I know is I want a change of scenery from what we currently have - call it what you like


Fair enough Jim but I suggest that you are looking for an improvement rather than a change. Yes, I will agree with you that SF (who have only relatively recently adopted Left credentials) and/or PPP/AAA will certainly lead to a change of scenery but their proposals to date have never stood up to scrutiny.
Mantras like tax the rich and abolish Irish Water are all very well to propose. However when you scrutinize the implementation of either of these they begin to come apart at the seams.
I can see exactly where you are coming from in respect of the lack of differential between FF/FG/Labour and their inability to realize that they are failing to engage with a substantial portion of the electorate.
If I was to base my voting preference on the performances on last night's debate I would be definitely favoring L Creighton and/or Stephen Donnelly. However until/unless these people can gain significant traction with their parties, they will have no say in Government.


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## jim (16 Feb 2016)

44brendan said:


> Mantras like tax the rich and abolish Irish Water are all very well to propose. However when you scrutinize the implementation of either of these they begin to come apart at the seams.



You might be right 44brendan - maybe some of their proposals don't stand up to scrutiny. but maybe some of the other parties proposals don't stand up to scrutiny. who here has really (really!) forensically scrutinised any proposals by anyone? I just think its a weak, media-driven argument that sf policies don't stack up etc etc...I say given them a chance to prove themselves! theyre different, theyre hungry, how much worse can they be than whats already there and potentially they could be a hell of a lot better.not saying vote sf, just saying consider a new alternative be that sf, renua, social democrats etc.

I am tending to vote for people rather than parties and so Donnelly is someone id absolutely vote for. the man is smart, has conviction, knows what he is talking about, is young, ambitious, hungry, in tune with the electorate and most importantly has fresh and logical ideas...and there are others like him.


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## Purple (16 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> I disagree - adams knows his own policies inside out as does any of the leaders which is no big deal that's the minimum you would expect of them. anyone can learn spiel off by heart. adams may be a bit scatter minded when articulating them when on the spot - who cares about that though. I value other things in the person that is going to run my country.



I value other things in the person who is running the country; Respect for democracy, an understanding of what a republic is, some semblance of honesty, a basic understanding of economics, not having been a member and a leader of a terrorist organisation, not being funded by a terrorist organisation, not having ever regarding the police and armed forces of this country as “fair game”, not being the leader of a party whose members intimidate those that disagree with them. Gerry Adams fails on every count. He is the last person I would like to see running the country.





jim said:


> I think FG are right wing (ish) I could be wrong...anyway my point is we need to get rid of fg/labour in gove and get new smart, young, feisty, passionate, authentic (as possible), original ideas people in there.


 We get the parliament we deserve, maybe better than we deserve. As long as we elect independent locally focused TD’s we will never have a good government. The problem is the electorate.  






jim said:


> I don't like mary lou on a personal level but I think she would be a good person to be involved in running the country - shes got balls and I believe is a lot more honest/authentic than burton who is way past her cell by date and is out of touch....similar to why I want Creighton in there - don't like her but I think shes got the right stuff to be at least in the dail.



I don’t trust a word any Shinner says. Their economic policies are both daft and dangerous. They would destroy the country.


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## dereko1969 (16 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> *I disagree - adams knows his own policies inside out as does any of the leaders which is no big deal that's the minimum you would expect of them. anyone can learn spiel off by heart.* *adams may be a bit scatter minded when articulating them when on the spot - who cares about that though*. I value other things in the person that is going to run my country.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you're saying he does know his party's policies, in his head, but can't share that with the people? Much like his membership of the army council?


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## Purple (16 Feb 2016)

dereko1969 said:


> So you're saying he does know his party's policies, in his head, but can't share that with the people? Much like his membership of the army council?


Good one! 
(do they know where you live?! )


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## 44brendan (16 Feb 2016)

Somebody is actually checking the claims against the facts. Good one Journal!!
http://www.thejournal.ie/rte-claire...tion-2016-ireland-fact-check-2606432-Feb2016/


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## jim (16 Feb 2016)

Purple said:


> Gerry Adams fails on every count. He is the last person I would like to see running the country.



Purple everyone entitled to their opinion and some people would take a different view to you - so be it...



Purple said:


> I don’t trust a word any Shinner says. Their economic policies are both daft and dangerous. They would destroy the country.



again purple you might be correct in this but then again you might not be...sf could be a great change for the country...I trust some individuals over others regardless of their party. some sf, ff, fg, etc I don't trust, likewise some I do.

lets leave IRA thing to the side for the purpose of this discussion. its tired old tripe. lets talk about the future and whats best for Ireland. you've made your views clear that you don't feel SF are the correct choice for the future of the country and that's fine. who knows? maybe theyre worth a chance?


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## Leo (16 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> lets leave IRA thing to the side for the purpose of this discussion. its tired old tripe. lets talk about the future and whats best for Ireland. you've made your views clear that you don't feel SF are the correct choice for the future of the country and that's fine. who knows? maybe theyre worth a chance?



Among what's best for Ireland is people paying their taxes. In cases where they don't, the book should be thrown at them regardless of how good a republican they are. It's a little scary how Mary Lou was quickly put in her place over that one.


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## T McGibney (16 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> lets talk about the future and whats best for Ireland. you've made your views clear that you don't feel SF are the correct choice for the future of the country and that's fine. who knows? maybe theyre worth a chance?



Their distinctly unimpressive record in government in Northern Ireland suggests otherwise.


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## Leo (16 Feb 2016)

T McGibney said:


> Their distinctly unimpressive record in government in Northern Ireland suggests otherwise.



Very good point, look what they've been doing with property taxes there!


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## thedaddyman (16 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> lets leave IRA thing to the side for the purpose of this discussion. its tired old tripe. lets talk about the future and whats best for Ireland. you've made your views clear that you don't feel SF are the correct choice for the future of the country and that's fine. who knows? maybe theyre worth a chance?



I had my desk blown to pieces in the Bishopgate bomb and heard 2 other bombs go off in London when I lived there. I know people impacted by the Warrington bomb, how can you say it's tired old tripe. It's not. Can you look the family of Gerry McCabe in the face and tell them the death of their father was tripe?. That's an absolute bloody disgrace to say that.

It's for statements like that, the inability of Sinn Fein to acknowledge and be open and honest about the past which is why I can currently not even consider voting for them and actively encourage people not to.


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## jim (16 Feb 2016)

don't twist my words daddy man where have I said anywhere that murder was tripe. what I said was to constantly bring up the ira when discussing sf is for me very tired old tripe. this is not debate on ira activity. if you want we can set up a separate thread and debate that.


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Feb 2016)

Taunting Mary Lou or Fierce Doherty with the IRA may be a bit tired.  But for Grizzly it is surely fair game.  Grizzly's opposition to the special criminal courts has nothing to do with his passion for civil liberty (goddam he supported kangaroo courts) but is deep rooted in his antipathy to the apparatus of law and order both up there and down here.

The very fact that Grizzly is pals with and respects a man who *needs* a special criminal court is damning in itself.  Mary Lou says people should pay their taxes as if the gentleman in question is simply another Lowry or Mick Wallace.  Not so, as the _Sindo_ asserted, in this case the tax is an application of the Al Capone strategy - it is well known that this was all that particular chap could be charged with.

It is really jolly that the main news on election day will be the sentencing of Grizzly's pal. Won't damage their core support of course, but will surely freeze them out of any meaningful transfers from constitutional parties.  It would make you wonder "just because SF are paranoid..."


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## Leper (16 Feb 2016)

Whatever we say about Gerry Adams and Sinn Féinn both win in the forthcoming election no matter what the outcome.
1. If they share power in government with (let's say Fine Gael) they are onto a winner.
2. If they are in opposition, it is likely that they will have gained representation and so they still win.

Like it or not Sinn Féinn are here into the distance future (Thank You Fianna Fáil, again you have a lot to answer for!).


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## jim (16 Feb 2016)

Ok aside from the ira and all that Jazz and gerrys apparent poor evonomics..whats wrong with sf?

In fairness to sf one of their objectives in a united ireland surely thats a noble ambition if (and its a big if) it can be achieved democratically in due course.


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## Duke of Marmalade (16 Feb 2016)

So far as I am aware, every single member of the Dail and possibly every single candidate in this election supports a United Ireland so that is hardly a distinguishing feature of SF.


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## jim (16 Feb 2016)

Baloney. Sf are the only party that are actively persuing it. Anyone can claim that any td supports anything. Wheres your proof that all tds "support" a united ireland and please define what you mean by support? 

I suspect what you mean to say is "all tds would probably like a united ireland and also to win the lotto"


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## Dermot (16 Feb 2016)

And where will SF get the approximate €5 billion subsidy that Westminster currently transfers to NI.  We have currently more pressing problems down here at the moment


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## jim (16 Feb 2016)

listen the economics of a united ireland is a whole other question and probably renders it unfeasible...but idealogically its a very noble ambition and only sf persue it.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> Baloney. Sf are the only party that are actively persuing it. Anyone can claim that any td supports anything. Wheres your proof that all tds "support" a united ireland and please define what you mean by support?
> 
> I suspect what you mean to say is "all tds would probably like a united ireland and also to win the lotto"


I’m not a FF voter but they are a republican party and always have been. They, like the Shinners, want a united Ireland but unlike the Shinners they were not willing to murder children and pensioners to get it. Gerry Adams has spent most of his adult life at the top table of an organisation which did not recognise this state and saw the Gardai, Army, Judges, Prison Officers and politicians of this country at legitimate targets. I fully acknowledge that Adams was a major force, if not the major force, in bringing the crazies into mainstream politics but he has too many questions to answer, too many skeletons in the closet, or buried in beaches,  to be allowed to be part of the government of a democratic state.



jim said:


> Ok aside from the ira and all that Jazz and gerrys apparent poor evonomics..whats wrong with sf?


Your question (I’m paraphrasing) is “other than the credibility of their leader, their past association with terrorists,  and their economic policies what’s wrong with SF?”. Is that not enough?


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## thedaddyman (17 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> don't twist my words daddy man where have I said anywhere that murder was tripe. what I said was to constantly bring up the ira when discussing sf is for me very tired old tripe. this is not debate on ira activity. if you want we can set up a separate thread and debate that.



I'm not twisting your words. This is the problem with SF. They want to wash their hands of the past when it suits then politically and then play the glorious republicans for another audience when it suits. . SF themselves have not forgotten this tripe when it suits them. SF are running convicted members of the IRA as candidates. Look at the Sinn Fein Bookshop site where you can still buy books and posters eulogising members of the IRA

If you follow the logic of what you are saying about ignoring the past then should we perhaps also ignore FF when they were last in power and stop bringing up old tripe about Brian Cowan


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## Leo (17 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> Ok aside from the ira and all that Jazz and gerrys apparent poor evonomics..whats wrong with sf?



And all that jazz? Pretty frivolous for an organisation responsible for so much pain and death. And let's not pretend they're part of history.

The fact the Murphy clearly has some kind of influence over the leadership?

If they wanted to be taken seriously as a party who wanted to make real change, why have they not done so while in power in the north? Why have they done the exact opposite? And why with a sniff of election success here have they ground the political institutions in the north to a halt so they won't be caught making more unpopular decisions?


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## Purple (17 Feb 2016)

Leo said:


> And why with a sniff of election success here have they ground the political institutions in the north to a halt so they won't be caught making more unpopular decisions?


 Excellent point and shows that they are willing to hurt the people they claim to represent in their pursuit of power.


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## Firefly (17 Feb 2016)

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...d-20k-after-kidnapping-mans-son-34460404.html

The Co Wexford businessman says he has been subjected to a slew of threats and intimidation from the gang, who claim to be members of the Provisional IRA.

"When they called first, they said they wanted €20,000. When they didn't get that, they rang 10 days later and wanted €2,500 within 24 hours."

"I told them they wouldn't be getting a penny from me. Then [they] came back looking for €4,500, or they would kill my son. They came on Wednesday night and broke the window and lit the petrol bomb outside... It could have been a lot more serious."

The businessman's son was also grabbed by four masked men from a street two weeks ago. "They threw him in the back of a van, tied him up, gave him a bit of a beating and dumped him in a forest."


And who said SF / IRA weren't pro-business?


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## Duke of Marmalade (17 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> Baloney. Sf are the only party that are actively persuing it. Anyone can claim that any td supports anything. Wheres your proof that all tds "support" a united ireland and please define what you mean by support?
> 
> I suspect what you mean to say is "all tds would probably like a united ireland and also to win the lotto"


Apologies, I believe Shane Ross may be suspect on a United Ireland.  It makes me kinda shudder to hear you say that SF are "actively" pursuing a UI.  I thought they gave that up in return for the release of Garda killers and Mercs and Percs at Stormont.

The fact is, just as the criminals of 1916 ensured the partition of Ireland (Canada initially got a wishy washy dominion status i.e. Home Rule but are now fully independent), the terrorist campaign of SF/IRA made acceptance of a UI by Ulster protestants remoter than ever.  Their antics since coming to power (speaking Irish in Stormont  debates etc.) has alienated further that community.  In short,  SF are the greatest block to a democratic acceptance of a UI, and BTW for that we owe them a deep gratitude.


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## noproblem (17 Feb 2016)

What would all the Catholics and Nationalists in the North have done if they didn't have the SF/IRA to back them up, where could they have gone for help, who would have helped them? People don't forget and FF and FG plus Lab and all the others ranting on about Adam's being in the IRA or whatever is total rubbish in their eyes. The people who rattle on about this were never in the SF camp and never will be, but the raving on about it is sending some disillusioned FF/FG supporters into their arms and will continue to do so. The same thing will happen if FF/FG go into Goverment together and make SF even stronger. Just remember that SF supporters won't leave that party unlike the other parties supporters. I'm well aware of what happened in the Northern troubles and I'm not a SF supporter either, but I guess there's a teeny little bit of SF/IRA blood in most of our genes even though we might like to deny it.


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## Duke of Marmalade (17 Feb 2016)

noproblem said:


> What would all the Catholics and Nationalists in the North have done if they didn't have the SF/IRA to back them up


They wouldn't have turned a peaceful student civil rights protest into a violent terrorist campaign for an all Ireland socialist republic.  As it happened the IRA hijacked civil rights movement provoked a protestant backlash and 30 years misery for everybody in the North.  But hey that's all tired old tripe and jazz.  Sure we were all equally at fault. 

Anyway why such concern about SF?  They are 17% in this morning's polls. PaddyPower reckons they will get 25 out of 159 seats.  Nobody will talk to them accept a few looney tunes and a few looney FF civil warriors.


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## Gerry Canning (17 Feb 2016)

no problem.

You are, with respect, more than a little naiive.
1. None of the Nationalist Parties in 1971 felt that bombing was (backing them up)  
2. After 30 years of a horrible hurtful mess ,it is great to see SF in (normal) politics.
3. Most in 26 forget that in N Ire the populace come from a position where they are UK positive and not Republicans. Down South we may wish them to be Republican Leaning but wishes don,t change things.
4. For better or worse the NI statelet is after 100 years firmly enscounced as an integral part of UK. 
5. SF have accepted in the Good Friday plebiscite that Partition is the wish of the Irish People UNTIL freely agreed otherwise by all.

I feel we have accepted an ( ALL IRISH REPUBLIC)  as a wish list to be worked towards, not bombed towards.

It is a pity it took Paisley/Adams and their ilk 30 years of misery to see this .
That said I am very glad they have .


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## cork (17 Feb 2016)

Gerry Canning said:


> It is a pity it took Paisley/Adams and their ilk 30 years of misery to see this .
> That said I am very glad they have .




I think the continued existence of Provo Criminality a factor that I find difficult.

The complete absence of anyone in SF to express an opinion that is contrary to Adams is odd.


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## jim (17 Feb 2016)

Maybe im the only one on AAM that sees the positves in SF as opposed to the (granted) many negatives. I like that they are a change of what we had, I like that are perusing a UI (democratically as opposed to undemocratically), I like Gerry adams persona (hes a bit of a laugh, I want that in the countries leader, I think its representative of us as a people).

I can counter argue all of the points made above, believe it or not, but I just don't have the time or energy to get into it. suffice to say....lets all respect each others views and opinions whether or not you like or agree with them and we ll leave it at that. that's all...just respect. im going to admit right now that I have never voted, for 1 reason or another and I don't have an affiliation to any party at all in spite of what you might think. im just looking for a change and to shake things up. I think sf, independents, social democrats etc represent this. sure they might have silly ideas and policies, sure they might have shady pasts (or very shady pasts...or violent pasts, or criminal pasts, or terrorist pasts - - -call it whatever I don't mind its beside the point im trying to make).

people politics and policies all change. one has to accept this and not dwell on the past whether it was the glorious past or the horrible past. live and let live.two wrongs don't make a right. look deep within yourself and seek the truth, always ask yourself the question why, why did this happen? and most of all think for yourself, don't be led by the media and populist views.

to summarise - Lads, Get over it, get over the past and move on. if you cannot do that then so be it. you just have to accept that some people think differently to you and you should respect that. you are entitled to bring up the past in defence of your views but why not let the past be in the past, why not change your viewpoint and see things differently? its just a thought...

thanks.


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## Leo (17 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> to summarise - Lads, Get over it, get over the past and move on. if you cannot do that then so be it. you just have to accept that some people think differently to you and you should respect that. you are entitled to bring up the past in defence of your views but why not let the past be in the past, why not change your viewpoint and see things differently? its just a thought...



Their ongoing support for criminality isn't in the past.

What they're currently doing in power in the north isn't in the past.


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## jim (17 Feb 2016)

so be it leo....im not sure if they "support" criminality. I would suggest they don't but anyway....................

what are they currently doing in power in the north that's so bad?....queue the media driven brain washed second hand stuff you've heard/read elsewhere...I don't buy that stuff.

take a step back and think before you speak, think for yourself....stop trying to defend why you don't support sf....you don't support them and leave it at that....im not trying to sell them. im just trying to promote the idea of thinking for yourself and questioning what you read and hear. ask yourself the question what is it that you want...and then vote accordingly..


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## T McGibney (17 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> what are they currently doing in power in the north that's so bad?....queue the media driven brain washed second hand stuff you've heard/read elsewhere...I don't buy that stuff.



Primary school closures, devised & implemented by a Sinn Fein minister, have been wretched.


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## jim (17 Feb 2016)

Yeah maybe...i dont know anymore...sf record is hard to defend and i certainly cant do it.

Still though, great bunch of lads.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> Yeah maybe...i dont know anymore...sf record is hard to defend and i certainly cant do it.
> 
> Still though, great bunch of lads.


So lets get this straight; the Shinners bloody and murderous past should be left in the past, despite the fact they are haven't left it there themselves. Their economic policies are daft and destructive. Their current track record in Northern Ireland is disastrous and you cannot defend their record in general but sure they are a great bunch of lads and you are going to vote for them... for a change... because change is good... a major outbreak of an antibiotic resistant strain of the Black Death would also be a change. Would you also be in favour of that?


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## Purple (17 Feb 2016)

On the democratic credentials of the Shinners; they spent over 30 years murdering people in Ireland, Britain and the mainland (most notably Germany) despite the vast majority of people in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Britain and everywhere else being totally and utterly opposed to their actions. How can we now believe them when they purport to accept democracy? Is it not more plausible that they regard it simply as a tool and those new supporters who ignore their past as useful idiots?


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## Leper (17 Feb 2016)

There is one poster here who probably sits on a bar stool on a Friday evening wearing a Celtic jersey with "Éire 32" written on the back.  His daughter is probably called Erin Saoirse and no matter what the conversation is he will bring up the Provies.  Gallant and brave from a bar stool.  Despite some of the sense printed here he does not want any part of it.  He has my pity.


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## Dermot (17 Feb 2016)

SF and a lot of their supporters closeness to criminals leaves a lot to be desired and in my view renders them unsuitable for Government in the Republic.  SF have just a grudging tolerance for Law  and order and especially for those who implement it.  
I know honest decent businessmen in NI who tell me that you do not go in opposition to businesses which are effectively backed by people who are well known SF supporters.  This is absolutely not good enough.  It would not be good for your health as good as SF say the health service is in NI. Gerry's preferred health system is "private in USA"  
SF would lead you to believe that politically they have huge control in NI yet over 75% of those who voted in May 2015 elections in NI did not vote for them.


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## jim (17 Feb 2016)

Yous are all priceless. Can we not jus keep this jovial and civil? Sure its all just a bit of craic anyway! Dont take things so seriously...thats my last piece of advice. Yous are lucky i treated yous to a few nuggets of wisdom above - see if you can pick them out....Time will tell.


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## Leper (18 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> Yous are all priceless. Can we not jus keep this jovial and civil? Sure its all just a bit of craic anyway! Dont take things so seriously...thats my last piece of advice. Yous are lucky i treated yous to a few nuggets of wisdom above - see if you can pick them out....Time will tell.



Jovial and Civil - Probably proves my point, people dead, others missing, thousands injured in one way or other.  Let's all sit down and laugh!

Bit of Craic - Please do not underestimate the influence a public house provo can have on others. Others get jailed and PHP still has his pint while talking up dangerous people. Great Craic!

Nuggets of Wisdom - You mean a truckload of rubbish.


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## thedaddyman (18 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> Maybe im the only one on AAM that sees the positves in SF as opposed to the (granted) many negatives. I like that they are a change of what we had, I like that are perusing a UI (democratically as opposed to undemocratically), I like Gerry adams persona (hes a bit of a laugh, I want that in the countries leader, I think its representative of us as a people).
> 
> I can counter argue all of the points made above, believe it or not, but I just don't have the time or energy to get into it. suffice to say....lets all respect each others views and opinions whether or not you like or agree with them and we ll leave it at that. that's all...just respect. im going to admit right now that I have never voted, for 1 reason or another and I don't have an affiliation to any party at all in spite of what you might think. im just looking for a change and to shake things up. I think sf, independents, social democrats etc represent this. sure they might have silly ideas and policies, sure they might have shady pasts (or very shady pasts...or violent pasts, or criminal pasts, or terrorist pasts - - -call it whatever I don't mind its beside the point im trying to make).
> 
> ...



Wow, I didn't realize  Brian Cowan was on AAM!!  This sounds like the greatest defence of Fianna Fail I've ever heard


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## Firefly (18 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> Yous are all priceless. Can we not jus keep this jovial and civil? Sure its all just a bit of craic anyway! Dont take things so seriously...thats my last piece of advice. Yous are lucky i treated yous to a few nuggets of wisdom above - see if you can pick them out....Time will tell.



Mighty craic Jim, mighty. Trolling anywhere else at the moment by the way?


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## Leo (18 Feb 2016)

jim said:


> ..thats my last piece of advice.



That at least is accurate.


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