# VRT - can you disagree with the OMSP



## Sambo (7 Apr 2006)

Hi, 

I have been using the VRT staging page from the Revenue website for quotes on various age 3 Series BMW's. I'm getting kind of frustrated with it as the OMSP (Open Market Selling Price) quoted for the vehicles seems to be inaccurate(very high) depending on which year i.e. 98 car vrt is higer by about €1500 than a late 97 etc etc. 

Also, does the Revenue use a "Book value" the kind of which is used in the car and insurance trade to repai/replace vehicles? 

Has anybody any experience of been able to argue the market value of a vehicle tin order to reduce VRT? I feel I am clutching at straws here but you have to ask!

Cheers

Sambo


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## Ned_ie (7 Apr 2006)

Yes you can argue the price but you will need to have proof. And no the CBG or a print off from Carzone won't suffice. It is unfortunately probably easier to argue that pigs can fly than to change the Revenues mind about the OMSP


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## Sambo (7 Apr 2006)

hahahahahah............yeah I thought so Ned, its just a giant pain in the face that the Revenue for their own purposes will use "market prices" whereas the motor industry and insurance industry use "book prices". 

What is is they say about highway robbery? At least Dick Turpin wore a mask!!!


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## mc-BigE (7 Apr 2006)

I brought in a Car from UK a year or 2 ago, got the car VRT €5000 and I appealed the amount when I had to get work done to the engine just after I bought it, I argued that the OMSP of my car was incorrect because my car was not in perfect mechanical order (must show receipt to prove work done on the car in Ireland). I won the case and was awarded about 400 euro off. If you don't ask , you wont get!

http://www.revenue.ie/leaflets/vrt6.htm


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## ButtermilkJa (10 Apr 2006)

I'm trying to use the online VRT calculator on the ROS website but I'm not having any luck. Anyone had any similar experience? It's just giving me error saying "no matching vehicles" or something like that?


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## X-Man (11 Apr 2006)

SAMBO........i'm in the exact same boat.i bought a sports car 6weeks ago and before i bought it in the uk i visited the site and the quote was X amount which i was happy with.viisited the site 2 weeks later and the VRT price trebled which i can't understand.

what i'm mad about is i didn't save the initial quote!!!    i recently spent 1k on the engine  but how can they change prices like that?????


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## mc-BigE (11 Apr 2006)

ButtermilkJa said:
			
		

> I'm trying to use the online VRT calculator on the ROS website but I'm not having any luck. Anyone had any similar experience? It's just giving me error saying "no matching vehicles" or something like that?


 
what vehicle are you looking at?
sometimes if you put 4 door instead of 5 door or saloon instead of hatchback etc. it can't find the car in their "pick a figure and double it" database


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## Sambo (11 Apr 2006)

X-man, 

Keep an eye on the spec you submit, i.e. tdi, glx etc etc. The time of year when it was first registered will also affect the quote, my best advice would be to keep submitting the details through the VRT Staging page , keep tweaking the exact details and keep printing them off. If you have had work done you can appeal that as a cost in order to reduce the OMSP that the VRT is calculated on!!

A friend of mine currently wants to import a Lotus 111S Elise and because it is not on the ROS VRT database they have taken his enquiry and we are awaiting to see what figure they come back with! It's costing 11k Sterling and the same car here is €29,995, so it will be interesting to see what they come up with!!

Was anybody listening to "Newstalk" with G.Hook yesterday evening? They had the MD from the Consumer Association Ireland and the MD from SIMI (Motoring Institute) arguing over the benefit Vs no benefit of importing a car from the North or the UK. Cecil Somebody from SIMI was a right jackass, not willing to acknowledge that there was anygood reason to shop abroad insisting that the Irish Car dealer's were offering better deals - Load of crap!

Anyway X-man let me know how you get on, here is a link for ROS VRT enquiries.

Sambo

http://www.revenue.ie/leaflets/vrt6.htm (Cuortesy of Mc-BigE)


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## Sambo (11 Apr 2006)

ButttermilkJa, 

Sounds like the vehicle isn't on thier Database, your gonna have to ring them direct. Check out the ROS website for their contact details, good luck with it they take a bloody age and tend to make up the figures as far as anyone can tell.

Sambo


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## X-Man (11 Apr 2006)

Sambo said:
			
		

> X-man,
> 
> Keep an eye on the spec you submit, i.e. tdi, glx etc etc. The time of year when it was first registered will also affect the quote, my best advice would be to keep submitting the details through the VRT Staging page , keep tweaking the exact details and keep printing them off. If you have had work done you can appeal that as a cost in order to reduce the OMSP that the VRT is calculated on!!
> 
> ...


 
sambo i went to the VRT office with the car when i got it but the guy i was dealing with couldn't get the specific model on his computer screen but yet i could do it in my own home and the quote also.......he told me he would have to wait from rosslare as it wasn't showing up.in that time the price has tripled!!!!!!    i have spent 1k on it already.   and also its the basic model.......i'll keep you up to date as ill be paying them a visit in the morning


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## Sambo (11 Apr 2006)

This post will be deleted if not edited immediately X-man thats a joke!!!! Can't beleive that they are unable to "guestimate" the VRT based on a similar model of the same car. Mind you I can't say that I find it entirely surprising!!

That MD guy on the "Right-Hook" radio show from SIMI insist's that the OMSP decided upon by the Revenue is as a result of reciepts issued to them upon request from car dealers who have sold similar spec/model cars!!! Might be an avenue you can check out?


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## Japnuts (27 Apr 2006)

It is very important that you obtain a quote from the online site or a VRO (Vehicle registration Office) on the day that you purchase a vehicle abroad and that you keep a written copy.

We frequently have this happen, as my business imports vehicles from Japan. It is possible to appeal, based on the original quotation, and my experience is that they will look favourably on an appeal where this evidence is produced.

If you are argueing that the OSMP is innacurate, then you should produce documentary evidence to this effect. A letter from a dealer in similar vehicles is good, and copies of adverts for similar vehicles offered for sale in magazines/papers will also strengthen your case. In most cases the Central Vehicle Office in Rosslare will poll a number of dealers to get their estimation of the market value before reaching a decision.

Work carried out on a vehicle does not qualify, as the vehicle must be presented in a roadworthy condition to the VRO for registration.

P.S. You must pay the VRT as assessed on the day, then lodge an appeal. The vehicle should be presented for registration the next working day after importation into the state.

Gavan
Japnuts.com


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## shnaek (27 Apr 2006)

Has VRT ever been challenged in the European courts?


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## mc-BigE (27 Apr 2006)

Japnuts said:
			
		

> It is very important that you obtain a quote from the online site or a VRO (Vehicle registration Office) on the day that you purchase a vehicle abroad and that you keep a written copy.
> 
> We frequently have this happen, as my business imports vehicles from Japan. It is possible to appeal, based on the original quotation, and my experience is that they will look favourably on an appeal where this evidence is produced.
> 
> ...


 
Gavan, as a car dealer, do you find that the OSMP quoted on the VRT website is accurate? i.e. if I was to enter say a car your selling on your website, would it be the same as the OSMP price quoted? 

Also regarding car been in roadworthy condition, if you presented the car to the VRT office in what you thought was PMO and a week later discovered that the engine need replacing and you can prove that it needed replacing before you presented it, wouldn’t that be grounds for an appeal? Because the car is/was worth less than the OSMP at time of VRT?


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## Japnuts (27 Apr 2006)

mc-BigE said:
			
		

> Gavan, as a car dealer, do you find that the OSMP quoted on the VRT website is accurate? i.e. if I was to enter say a car your selling on your website, would it be the same as the OSMP price quoted?
> 
> Also regarding car been in roadworthy condition, if you presented the car to the VRT office in what you thought was PMO and a week later discovered that the engine need replacing and you can prove that it needed replacing before you presented it, wouldn’t that be grounds for an appeal? Because the car is/was worth less than the OSMP at time of VRT?


The OSMP quoted by the revenue commissioners can often bear no relation to the real market value of the vehicle. Their database lists thousands of options and models, and to be fair to them it is an uphill task to keep up to date with the trends in the market. The system is overly complex and could have been implemented better. It is a nightmare for the Revenue Commission staff that administer it and the Dealers and Car buyers who use it.

There are "bargains" out there, cars for which the VRT currently charged is quite a bit below what would be charged if the OSMP were accurately assessed. Equally there are cars out there that are vastly overvalued and certainly worth appealing. I have been in the situation in the past where I have had to sell a vehicle at below my cost because the VRT quote inflated the price over the "real" Irish market value. 

As for the roadworth condition, I doubt they would look favourably on a case like that. I'm not sure as I've never been in that situation, but I suspect that they would argue that the vehicle was roadworthy on the day it was registered and that they could not allow for subsequent faults. Otherwise it would be very difficult to draw the line.


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## mc-BigE (27 Apr 2006)

I did think that the OSMP was a lot less than the what i paid for my car back in Jan06, so much so that i presented a printout of same to the Dealer at the time and he pretty much said that was the Trade-in price VRT were quoting! however its a great haggling tool!

Of course the flip side of the coin could be that the OSMP is correct and the second hand car industry are trying to make a heathly profit!


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## mc-BigE (27 Apr 2006)

Seriously though, CBG car price guide is a small book available in all newsagents for around 5 euro and give prices of all cars back to 98
so might be worth having one of those in your back pocket in the VRT office! or when you buying any car in ireland.


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## Japnuts (27 Apr 2006)

mc-BigE said:
			
		

> I did think that the OSMP was a lot less than the what i paid for my car back in Jan06, so much so that i presented a printout of same to the Dealer at the time and he pretty much said that was the Trade-in price VRT were quoting! however its a great haggling tool!
> 
> Of course the flip side of the coin could be that the OSMP is correct and the second hand car industry are trying to make a heathly profit!



Lol !, well as a dealer, I do try to make a healthy profit on each vehicle we take into stock. After all a healthy profit means a healthy business, and I and all car dealers (at least the sane ones ) are in business to make a living.

But there is more to it than that, at the end of the day, a car is only worth what the market will pay for that vehicle. I tend to specialise in sports cars, 4x4s, commercial vehicles, and MPV's because there is a healthy demand for these vehicles and because I can source good ones at reasonable prices from Japan. We target our prices to be 5% to 10% lower than the price quoted on a city dealers forecourt for a similar vehicle.

Often the biggest driver in price increases is an increase in VRT... I had a client last year for whom we imported a lovely Subaru. When we bought the car in Japan for him, the VRT was € 2840, by the time it had been shipped to Ireland the VRT was € 5840 !!! We appealed, and won back the difference because we were able to prove that a price had been negotiated based on the old VRT quote (a copy of which I kept), but we havent sold another example of that model since as it is now 20% more expensive purely because of the VRT !


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## mc-BigE (28 Apr 2006)

I agree, every Company has to make a profit to exist and improve there business but also must be competitive, like you! Well done.

If one considers the Government to be a company, they take the biscuit!
Now I know we all need to pay our taxes, to pay for good Health care  
And social welfare   and government jets! etc. etc.

But VRT and Stamp Duty on houses are two taxes which really are over the top IMO.

Should be banned or at least reduced.

Anyone know if these issues have made it to EU court or equivalent?

Its one thing for one or two people to complain about it, but we need the whole country, Including the Irish motor industry behind banning VRT.

One way of getting the Irish Motor industry to stand up and help Joe soaps like you and me  is to buy our cars in UK/Japan and import them ourselves (sorry Japnuts nothing personal).

This way the big Irish motor industry might pay more attention because they would be losing money and might take on the government themselves.

Also when you pay your VRT, appeal it very time.

Don’t vote for the current government in the next election.
(But I don’t think the other parties will do anything about VRT either)

It’s just a thought, any better suggestions?


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## sonnyikea (28 Apr 2006)

I was giving this some thought the other day. What would be the effect of removing VRT, or reducing it considerably, on the car market in Ireland? Obviously car prices would reduce but if you look at the depreciation in cars already, everyone that currently owns a car would lose 22.5% or more from the value of their car overnight if VRT was to be abolished.

I can't see that going down particularly well. Ok if you own your car outright and you want to buy a new (new meaning new or different) car the net effect would be the same but if you, like most people I would imagine, have a loan or hp on the car then you have much more negative equity than the usual depreciation.

When I said at the start I was giving this some thought, obviously not much thought, but it's an interesting discussion anyway. Or have I fundamentally not understood the effect it would have?


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## Dipole (28 Apr 2006)

If VRT was abolished then you could go to the UK and get a Corolla for less that €15K Irish.  That's a Corolla for the price of a Yaris.
More deals can be found at [broken link removed]

Who wins?
Irish consumers

Who looses?
Irish government and Irish dealers who have a closed market, set prices amongst themselves and are free from competition from outsiders.


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## bartelink (28 Apr 2006)

mc-BigE said:
			
		

> One way of getting the Irish Motor industry to stand up and help Joe soaps like you and me  is to buy our cars in UK/Japan and import them ourselves (sorry Japnuts nothing personal).


BTW Japnuts (Disclosure: I purchased a vehicle through Japnuts so will naturally be telling you I was genius for choosing to do it this way!, but have not other affiliation with them) run an 'custom import' service too, with which the margin is transparent (and reasonable IMO).  It is of course possible to go direct to the people that the like of Japnuts ultimately deal with (and save the fees incurred in having an extra layer of intermediaries), but a key part of the service for me is dealing with the VRT aspect, lodging said appeals, going down to the docks to get the vehicle (and the to-and-froing of organising that), organising the fitting of an alarm and chasing people whose primary language is Japanese, together with the benefits of the trading relationships they've built up over time.

The other big thing is that before a car gets bought for you, you pretty much know the full end-cost (except for the impacts of exchange rate variations (which can potentially be large but in general are minor) and/or any rebates secured by the importer).  And in the case of the other Japnuts customer where the VRT turned out higher than the initial quote, it was Japnuts who were having the sleepless nights about having to cover the difference if an appeal was to be unsuccessful.

The big difference between a random car on a forecourt in Ireland ready to go vs buying through such a custom import service is that you know the price that was paid at auction for the vehicle and the assessment grading it received (and that the dealer and/or his spouse hasnt been whacking it around for the last n months without servicing it while they were waiting to sell it, which was the case in one case).  The quality of stuff sold as "fresh off the boat, first to see will buy" via Irish dealers for is for me an open question.

I personally would choose to use such a "custom import" service via Japnuts or anyone offering a similar service again, as opposed to going to a random agent in Japan who will their bit their side, stick it on a ship and leave you holding a vehicle which the VRT hasnt been settled on in the docks.


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## sonnyikea (28 Apr 2006)

Dipole said:
			
		

> If VRT was abolished then you could go to the UK and get a Corolla for less that €15K Irish. That's a Corolla for the price of a Yaris.


 
Granted but overnight your car is worth between 22.5% and 30% less than you paid for it. Just because all other cars are 22.5% - 30% cheaper doesn't remove the fact that in real terms you're out of pocket by that percentage. The only way you won't be out of pocket is if you're a car FTB.

Abolishing VRT devalues the whole market. Or have I got this wrong? 

I'm all in favour of VRT being scrapped as you will get better value for money, which is what it is all about.


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## mc-BigE (28 Apr 2006)

bartelink said:
			
		

> BTW Japnuts (Disclosure: I purchased a vehicle through Japnuts so will naturally be telling you I was genius for choosing to do it this way!, but have not other affiliation with them) run an 'custom import' service too, with which the margin is transparent (and reasonable IMO). It is of course possible to go direct to the people that the like of Japnuts deal with and save the fees Japnuts charge, but a key part of the service for me is dealing with the VRT aspect, lodging said appeals, going down to the docks to get the vehicle (and the to-and-froing of organising that), organising the fitting of an alarm, chasing people whose primary language is Japanese. The other big thing is that before a car gets bought for you, you pretty much know the full end-cost (except for the impacts of exchange rate variations (which can potentially be large but in general are minor) and/or any rebates secured by the importer). And in the case of the other Japnuts customer where the VRT turned out higher than the initial quote, it was Japnuts who were having the sleepless nights about having to cover the difference if an appeal was to be unsuccessful.
> 
> The big difference between a random car on a forecourt in Ireland ready to go vs buying through such a custom import service is that you know the price that was paid at auction for the vehicle and the assessment grading it received (and that the dealer and/or his spouse hasnt been whacking it around for the last n months without servicing it while they were waiting to sell it, which was the case in one case). The quality of stuff sold as "fresh off the boat, first to see will buy" via Irish dealers for is for me an open question.
> 
> I personally would choose to use such a "custom import" service via Japnuts or anyone offering a similar service again, as opposed to going to a random agent in Japan who will their bit their side, stick it on a ship and leave you holding a vehicle which the VRT hasnt been settled on in the docks.


 
You have a point regarding bringing in a Jap Import, its a lot of time and money in advance for a car you've seen on the computer screen, but there are Custom clearance agents who for a small fee, say 50 euro, will do the paperwork for you i.e. pay the CCT, VAT and can Get the vehicle inspected for VRT as well. Arrange to meet with you or your car transporter company. Its not rocket science.

When I refer to the Irish Motor Industry, I’m referring to the bigger "car manufacturing distributors" like the ones mentioned in primetime a few months back eligibly guilty of price fixing, those kind of Garages.


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## Dipole (28 Apr 2006)

22.5 to 30% of an asset that in most circumstances you can't liquidate without immeadiately replacing it is worth next to nothing.


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## X-Man (28 Apr 2006)

i still haven't paid the VRT on my sports car which i purchased 2months ago and in that time the VRT has trebled in cost!!!! 

in the meantime i spent 1,000E on timing belt and service etc plus it needs another 500E to be spent.how can i reduce the cost of the VRT........


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## mc-BigE (28 Apr 2006)

Dipole said:
			
		

> If VRT was abolished then you could go to the UK and get a Corolla for less that €15K Irish. That's a Corolla for the price of a Yaris.
> More deals can be found at [broken link removed]
> 
> Who wins?
> ...


 
The point is you wouldn't need to go to the UK because it should be the same price here.

the irish consumers who have an existing car will loose also,but
if there trading in the price difference should be the same because the car there buying is cheaper.


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## bartelink (28 Apr 2006)

mc-BigE said:
			
		

> You have a point regarding bringing in a Jap Import, its a lot of time and money in advance for a car you've seen on the computer screen, but there are Custom clearance agents who for a small fee, say 50 euro, will do the paperwork for you i.e. pay the CCT, VAT and can Get the vehicle inspected for VRT as well. Arrange to meet with you or your car transporter company. Its not rocket science.


50 euro, come on - there's very few services indeed you can get in the docks that take more than a few minutes such as this within that price range  

It's like the difference between doing your own accounts and having a ggod accountant -- it's only adding up; not rocket science -- but I'll let my accountant add it up and fill in the forms instead of me taking 3 days making sure it's all done right and I'm not paying n thousand too much.

It's all very easy to say it's not rocket science, but it's still lots of time and chasing.  For example there isn't a "your car transporter company" involved -- there's a single point of contact who takes care of it all, and you're talking 3-5% of the value of the vehicle (not sure exactly what it is, but I think it's at the lower end of that range), which is very reasonable indeed IMO.  Have a re-read of my listing of the work carried out on tyour behalf, or read the full list up on the service description.



			
				mc-BigE said:
			
		

> When I refer to the Irish Motor Industry, I’m referring to the bigger "car manufacturing distributors" like the ones mentioned in primetime a few months back eligibly guilty of price fixing, those kind of Garages.


I know what you mean, and I assume your comments are much more aimed at the case of importing a UK vehicle that you've purchased directly (and ideally test driven, had inspected and have spoken over the phone to the seller).  It gets a lot more complicated from Japan because there is going to be a time difference, and there are not going to be replies in clear English with no misunderstandings within minutes to emails, phone calls, or to simply know where someone lives and feasibly be able to drop around to them.

In the case of bringing a car over from the UK, I agree, you don't need an itermediary and there's no major benefit to one - by far the biggest benefit you're going to get is from test driving and/or having someone worthwhile inspecting it.



			
				mc-BigE said:
			
		

> those kind of Garages.


Remember, I'm talking here about the 'custom import service', where Japnuts (or anyone similar) is for a known fee getting a car you have total control over choosing and you know the raw cost that's being paid.

As opposed to garages, who get random stock from random sources (tradeins, auctions with no investigation of any consequence), tell you a random selection of things they reckon you want to hear, and offer some form of guarantee.

There's no 'garage' involved, the car doesn't sit on a forecourt Ireland for an indefinite period gathering moss and depreciating while waiting for someone to select it, and the margin is much smaller as the importer is not risking not being able to sell it for the proposed price (or having to stump up repair costs should anything go wrong which they'd have to if they gave say a 6 month guarantee on a vehicle from stock).


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## Lorraine B (30 Apr 2006)

So is there any truth in the rumour that there's a case with the European Courts that may lead to VRT being abolished?? 
Anybody got any idea?


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## bond-007 (30 Apr 2006)

They may abolish it a midnight on a certain date only to be immediately replaced by a similar tax. And around in circles we will go again.


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## Eurofan (30 Apr 2006)

bond-007 said:
			
		

> They may abolish it a midnight on a certain date only to be immediately replaced by a similar tax. And around in circles we will go again.



Fine by me, abolish vrt and road tax and stick the lot on fuel would be a lot fairer all round.


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## mc-BigE (2 May 2006)

bartelink said:
			
		

> 50 euro, come on - there's very few services indeed you can get in the docks that take more than a few minutes such as this within that price range


 
The customs clearance agent charged my 30 pounds back in 2001, but this is only for his services i.e. doing the paperwork, paying the vat and Custom clearance tax on my behalf (which I have to pay for in turn)

Here's a link to that post:

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=186761&postcount=16


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## bartelink (2 May 2006)

mc-BigE said:
			
		

> The customs clearance agent charged my 30 pounds back in 2001, but this is only for his services i.e. doing the paperwork, paying the vat and Custom clearance tax on my behalf (which I have to pay for in turn)


Fair enough.  Having that specific to-and-froing done for that price sounds quite decent (and now totally credible to me given your additional evidence!).

In my case, this cost and the car transporter cost was included in the Japnuts fee (which is obviously going to be more simply adding those up).

To sum up, the ancillary benefits over DIY are:
1) Multiple vendors on Japanese side
2) Established relationships with same mean less things can go wrong
3) Someone else arranges to have the time to go down during their opening hours, verifies the appointment and reschedules if the boat or anything else is delayed
4) Ditto alarm fitting, new tyres, timing belt fitting etc.
5) Ditto VRT payment (and all other component payments)
6) You know your costs up front (ref fact that if the VRT is wrong, thats a Japnuts issue as discussed in previous post)

As you're saying, all the steps are doable and no idnidvidual step is rocket science.  DIY should generally work out cheaper (and be educational along the way).  But for me, that's a set of work I get someone who specialises in just such services to do - I see it as a very good value service which got me the vehicle I wanted at an appropriate cost and have no complaints.  Especially if they can be transparent and up-front about all the costs (as opposed to a car on a forecourt where you better have something to compare it against to ascertain whether it's good value).


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## Jane1 (3 May 2006)

VRT will never go! I paid 5k just recently. The amount I paid was as per the website that morning. One thing I did notice is that the OMSP of some car brands is way off, its much too low and therefore you can save 4-5k importing. I'm not going to say which ones! But BMW's get hit hard on the website. Probably just because its a popular car to import. There is no saving I could see importing. Next time your going to work look at all the UK regs around you...you'll be surprised.


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## mc-BigE (3 May 2006)

Here's a funny example, i was looking resently at a 2000 Audi RS4 avant in the UK, there a very popular car in high demand in the UK and can fetch up to 25K sterling or more for one, however because of high road tax and insurance in ireland the OMSP valve is 10,000 euro ??? so vrt is about 3K euro, its great if you want one, but very bad for someone selling one in Ireland. 

Hope the vrt office don't look at this forum!!!


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## niceoneted (5 Sep 2008)

I read an article in the car section of one of last Sundays papers - cannot remember which one as it was hanging around at work. It was about how 1% of people who import cars appeal the VRT as saying the OMSP is too high. Of them I think about 90% won the appeal. I'm just wondering how do you prove the OMSP is too high? I know this post is a bit old but someone said that a print off of CBG or the likes is not sufficient. 
Any thoughts.


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## bond-007 (5 Sep 2008)

Copies of dealer ads in newspapers are acceptable.


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## sse (5 Sep 2008)

I won a VRT appeal on a Clio which meant the OMSP reduced from 11995 to 8750 (or something like that anyway) and I was refunded the difference.

I sent in the examples of the only two identical cars I could find which were on sale in Ireland at the time.

SSE


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## niceoneted (5 Sep 2008)

SSE what you sent in was it print offs from an internet site or newspaper adds? Thanks for that bit of info.


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