# Would you move back to Ireland?



## meular (31 Aug 2006)

Just wondering if any those non Irish residents on the site would move back to Ireland and the reasoning behind the consideration to move.  This question is particularly directed to those who have grown up, been educated and may have commenced their working life in Ireland but have been away for the past 10-15 years.  Many thanks in advance for your comments.


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## CCOVICH (31 Aug 2006)

This is not a _Location Location Location _topic.

Moved.


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## jccf2003 (1 Sep 2006)

I already did - last year - having spent 10 years in the US.  The decision was not based on money, needless to say.  We knew we'd be earning less and that housing would be more... but we moved to be closer to family and to have our daughter educated over here.  We haven't regretted it, though the first couple of months were a little tough!


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## Lauren (1 Sep 2006)

I returned to Ireland last year after almost 13 years overseas working in Australia and Africa. Most of my working life therefore had been overseas. My main reason for returning home was family related (parents getting old etc). I was very excited at the prospect of working professionally in Ireland, given I work in the IT industry. I haven't regretted my decision for a moment. I love being home, bought an (overpriced) apartment and have been in a few different jobs since returning home, finding my feet. If you are thinking of doing the same, feel free to PM me.


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## JohnBoy (1 Sep 2006)

thought about it for sometime but expensive housing and poor infrastructure have put me off for the moment. my brother is lucky enough to live in a period property in a very desirable south dublin address - for him life in dublin is fantastic but i would be looking at a more modest home some distance from the centre of Dublin.

i live in london and do like it over here. i am married with kids and we live in a 5-bed edwardian house in a really pleasant area. i cycle to work in the summer and the commuting via the tube only takes me 35mins or so door-to-door. there is a suberb school at the bottom of the road and we have a good social life. to replicate this life in dublin would be difficult without a lot of cash but whenever i have looked for work at home i have always been unimpressed by the salaries on offer.

to be honest i think that my quality of life would suffer if i moved back. my friends are spread out all over dublin and getting around that city is not easy. housing is as expensive (if not more so) than London but wages (for my job at least) are at least half of what i would get here. 

if there were a property price crash i would certainly have to think about moving back. my job would not really be dependent upon the irish economy so i would be in a better position than many others.


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## casiopea (1 Sep 2006)

Im still abroad, Switzerland, and have been abroad for the last 7 years.  I am lucky right now in that we've no children  (my husband is swiss) so I hop on a plane quite frequently and come home to visit friends and family (Im home between 10 to 15 times a year).

Its hard to say  you a never coming back and I genuinely do want to be back sometimes. However my motivations are purely family and friends.  My quality of life is higher here and Im financially better off.  Though Switzerland is notoriously expensive Im beginning to find Dublin (where my family are) more expensive. Weve just bought a house here in Zurich that we wouldnt be able to afford ever in Dublin (5 bedroom, detached).  

From the perspective of starting a family, I know it will be harder. Again for family reasons I would like to be home.  However for education reasons I do think Switzerland is better. While irish education system is great (I did well out of it) the swiss education system I think is  a bit better in that 

a. you learn and live in 2 to 3 languages from a very early age 
b. if you dont fit into the study, exam model, point system you have many alternatives in CH where as at home (or at least when I was a school) you were regarded as a slow and didnt really have options until you completed school and felt like a failure for not having gotten into university 

c. finally there is a lot of things for kids of all ages to do here, lots of facilities and ammenties.  

So if I were to bring my children home to be educated I feel it would be more for my benefit than theirs.  That said having gone to school in Irish I feel sad that they will probably never learn Irish.

All in all, I count myself lucky. There are 2 countries I see myself totally at home in, and both countries have many advantages that out way their cons.


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## Glenbhoy (1 Sep 2006)

I was away for several years, the majority of paddies I came to know and befriend are now back too, they were away for mostly 5/6 yrs, all of us are back in Ireland for at least 2 yrs, and none of us regret the move at all.  That's not to say I would have any difficulties in moving abroad again if economically necessary.


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## Marie (1 Sep 2006)

I was an economic migrant from Ireland to UK in 1973.  The RoI was in the doldrums; I "failed Irish" in my Leaving Cert and in those pre-modular days you therefore 'failed' the whole shebang so I resonate with the remarks about greater flexibility and opportunities elsewhere, e.g. Switzerland.

For those 30 years all my holidays, spare-time (and money) revolved around family and friends in Ireland.....however with the passing of time family have died off and fewer friends in the network.

My heart - quite literally - 'sings' when I get off the plane in Dublin Airport.....and that view of the Wicklow hills from the top of O'Connell Street is for me one of the most moving in the world.
Though my intention remains to return to Ireland, now there is no family connection I see the country - and the changes in the people brought by increased prosperity - in a new light.  I had  very difficult and challenging experiences with the Irish 'system' including solicitors, auctioneers, medical and social services and trades-people in my roles vis-a-vis my late family.  I found many to be impatient, patronising and grasping.Friends - including one who returned after many years abroad to care for frail elderly parents - confirmed that Irish life now had all the disadvantages of the UK without any of the advantages.  Thinking about the comments of previous posters who currently live in the UK, my experience matches that.  

I have a box-full of post-graduate qualifications because the UK education system was sufficiently flexible to allow me to - as a mature student - resume education and develop my talents.  As far as employment is concerned I have always had good jobs and never had any feeling during interview that "closed shop" ethics applied (my information from friends is that it's still 'who you know' which determines your success or lack of it in some professional areas in Ireland!!!).  Three years ago when I applied for jobs in Dublin I was overqualified for most; those I short-listed for were American-style short-term contracts which does not give you an adequate secure base, in my view........and I would have been taking a cut in salary.   I've never sussed whether tax for middle-income earners is higher in Ireland but indirect taxes on goods and services certainly appear to be.

My money goes further here than it would be in Ireland and short visits to Dublin guzzle money. The cost of living for ordinary things - including public transport - is high and the quality low.  I did a trawl of TESCO superstore prices comparing UK/RoI prices about a year ago and the same basket of basic groceries cost over a hundred euros a month more like-for-like.   

Through hard work in my late 50's I  now own my small period house in the centre of town 5 minutes walk from train and bus-station a 50-minute train-journey from the centre of London.  There is no way I could have such amenity in Ireland.  The traffic in Dublin and the difficulties of getting around are phenomenal and it concerns me the roads are amongst the most dangerous in Europe.  We pay high Council tax here but can then insist on good services.  My local Council recycles everything - including plastics - provides containers for tins, garden waste, paper and old clothing fortnightly and the environment is well-kept (for example Council planted two million flowering bulbs in grass verges, traffic-islands, parkland etc. to mark the millenium). As far as pension and benefits in later age are concerned those are probably now on a par with the UK and I hope people will ensure they stay that way (alas I feel older peoples' benefits is one of the first things which will - quietly - be removed when the economy stalls/crashes).  

The property situation has probably tipped the balance against returning as even country cottages in the a***hole of the country (which is where I would like to retire to, to have a bit of peace and quiet and space for a garden) are now been marketed as "in the region of" - which means letting yourself in for the meat-grinder of bidding-wars.  I love Ireland very much, miss it and would live out my days there _if that were possible _but over the past 5 years I think the tide is turning - for me - in favour of a rural home in France, or Italy or Portugal.  A friend who took early retirement to Cyprus three years ago recommends it highly  .


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## Dan The Man (1 Sep 2006)

I have been away on and off for about 10 years.

Before I left, I could stagger home merrily from the city centre late on a Saturday night, not now!

Everything seemed so much cheaper then, and I make a lot more now!

There has been a lot of good and bad changed with the place over that time, I still think I will eventually come back for good, but just not yet.

It's still a great place to visit, especially golf and fishing.


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## fitzy73 (1 Sep 2006)

I've thought about it long and hard, and the upshot is a definite no. I moved to London 6 years ago, and have great job and good career prospects here. I get the occasional email from employers in Ireland, and frankly the salaries they are offering are laughable - less than I was on 6 years ago in Dublin (One you've converted them to €). 

I love Ireland, and I miss my family and friends greatly. However, looking at the stupidly overpriced houses, the comedy that is infrastructure and above all the intolerance for "non nationals" I find myself thinking it's not for me anymore. 

IMHO (and I hope for the sake of those family and friends that I am wrong) Ireland is heading into a deep pile of dog doo doo over the next few years. Manufacturing jobs are going at the rate of knots, and the move to "high value knowledge based" jobs is some TD's idea of a sick joke. Interest rates will hit 4.5 % by next year, the housing sector will collapse and the level of personal debt will cripple people for years to come. Again, I hope I'm wrong but ....


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## JohnBoy (1 Sep 2006)

one aspect of modern Ireland that has not been touched upon in this thread so far is the how the people have changed. to be fair people are still friendly back in Ireland and there is certainly a feeling about the place that you do not get elsewhere. but the attitude towards money and wealth has become, to be frank, quite crass. I work in the financial district of London, surrounded by people who make large amounts of money evey year (one year's bonus could pay off the average UK mortgage), but you rarely (if ever) hear them talk about money. of course, they do live in the best areas and their children are educated privately, but they would never dream of telling you what they paid for their house, or indeed, ask you what you paid for yours.

It never ceases to amaze me how freely some Irish people openly discuss house prices and sometimes even salaries in public. i have bumped into schoold friends who have not hesitated to tell me exactly how much they paid for a property and, moreover, what it was worth as of that morning. perhaps i am just old fashioned.


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## daveirl (1 Sep 2006)

fitzy73 said:


> above all the intolerance for "non nationals" I find myself thinking it's not for me anymore.


Surely the UK is even worse for that, far more Xenophobic newspapers with alarmist headlines...


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## fitzy73 (1 Sep 2006)

daveirl said:


> Surely the UK is even worse for that, far more Xenophobic newspapers with alarmist headlines...


 Dave are you following me from Munsterfans?!! 

Absolutely true - the Daily Mail is an absolute rag and the Torygraph not too far behind.  The Sun is a lost cause.  Despite that, I do find people here are far more tolerant, if that is the right word.  I am certainly more "aware" of ethnic differences.  A good example - a friend of mine was over from Limerick last weekend - on the way home he commented that he was "working like a black at the moment".  Now he didn't mean it in a racist way, but it's something I would simply not say here. The other thing - there is a real mixture of people in any given area, esp in London.  I have One Chinese, two Indians and 2 West Africans on my doorstep - restaurants I mean


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## GeneralZod (1 Sep 2006)

fitzy73 said:


> A good example - a friend of mine was over from Limerick last weekend - on the way home he commented that he was "working like a black at the moment".



It isn't just the little people. The leader of Seanad Éireann, Mary O'Rourke, made the same gaffe relatively recently!


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## bogwarrior (1 Sep 2006)

fitzy73 said:


> I have One Chinese, two Indians and 2 West Africans on my doorstep - restaurants I mean



yeah, but do the workers from those restuarants live in your area or just work there?

I was abroad for 8 years - 3 in NY and 5 in Australia - and have been home for a year (elderly parents).  The adjustment was difficult but you soon get back in the swing of things - i'm not living or working in Dublin though, and am quite happy about the fact (great town, lived there for a year out of college but couldn't see myself paying a huge mortgage to live in a 3bed semi in the outer suburbs now).
I earn a lot less than I did when I was away, but if i was chasing dollars I would never have come home in the first place - there are more important things in life.
If I had a choice in the matter I'd still live abroad - and will probably move away again in the future - but for now, in the circumstances, its nice to be home and near family.


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## CelloPoint (1 Sep 2006)

fitzy73 said:


> Absolutely true - the Daily Mail is an absolute rag and the Torygraph not too far behind.


Eh, how can you put the Daily Telegraph in the same sentence as the Daily Mail?

The Telegraph is a good read (especially their business, sport and features sections). I also like the Telegraph because they report on the major news from the Vatican without all the anti-Catholic slurs that you get from the Irish media.


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

fitzy73 said:


> IMHO (and I hope for the sake of those family and friends that I am wrong) Ireland is heading into a deep pile of dog doo doo over the next few years. Manufacturing jobs are going at the rate of knots, and the move to "high value knowledge based" jobs is some TD's idea of a sick joke. Interest rates will hit 4.5 % by next year, the housing sector will collapse and the level of personal debt will cripple people for years to come. Again, I hope I'm wrong but ....


 
Please elaborate on the "pile of dog doo doo" that we're heading for.

Ireland's interest rate is currently 3%, 1.5% less than the United Kingdom. Interest rates globally (EU, UK and US) are on the upward trend, so we're likely to see this gap remain rather than converge in your timeframe.

Ireland's rate of inflation in July was exactly the same as the United Kingdom - 2.4%.

As for personal debt levels, by all accounts the United Kingdom is in worse doo doo than Ireland - have a look [broken link removed].



> A commonly used measure of indebtedness, the ratio of personal debt to personal disposable income shows the extent to which debt has risen....Overall, the ratio increased from 43 per cent in 1990 to more than 120 per cent last year....Bank of England figures show that British debt-to-income ratio has now risen to around 150 per cent.


 
And while we're at it, remind me where school children have been stabbed to death because they were black? Or where town and city centres were badly damaged because of race riots? Or where one of the biggest growing political parties is called the BNP?

Remind me also where there was a housing collapse in the last decade or two? I'm sure it wasn't in Ireland anyway.

Congratulations to you and your great job and prospects in London. Having been there, done that, and bought the t-shirt for a number of years myself, I hope things stay rosy for you. Just beware, that as a non-national yourself over there, that you too could end up in some doo doo as well.

And finally, if you're going to cast aspersions on your own country, and by association with all of us who who still live here and pay taxes in order to support your family in their old age, please be specific, accurate, and non-alarmist. In the (almost) words from Dragnet, "just the facts, sir!!!".


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

CelloPoint said:


> Eh, how can you put the Daily Telegraph in the same sentence as the Daily Mail?
> 
> The Telegraph is a good read (especially their business, sport and features sections). I also like the Telegraph because they report on the major news from the Vatican without all the anti-Catholic slurs that you get from the Irish media.


 
No, they're just anti-Irish instead.


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## GeneralZod (1 Sep 2006)

ronan_d_john said:


> No, they're just anti-Irish instead.



No more anti-irish and probably less so than the anglo-phobia that is prevalent in the Irish media.


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## bogwarrior (1 Sep 2006)

ronan_d_john said:


> No, they're just anti-Irish instead.



do they have an Oirish edition?  the biggest change I've noticed since returning is how, in some respects, we've turned into a mini-britain - the ubiquitous chain stores everywhere (now Roches are turning into Debenams), SKY tv, and the Oirish editions of the English tabloids.  Not sure if this is bad thing, but its certainly a big change.


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

GeneralZod said:


> No more anti-irish and probably less so than the anglo-phobia that is prevalent in the Irish media.


 
Anti-Irish Irish media?  

Which newspapers? Which journalists?


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## interyu (1 Sep 2006)

As a Non-national working in Ireland, I would like to have my view of Ireland. I will leave Ireland soon for the following reasons:

1. Overpriced property 
2. Poor public transport
3. Poor health system
4. Lower salary for the same job compare to US, UK and Australia etc
5. Dublin is not a safe city( Police are useless in this country, I was attacked a few times by the Irish kids at night and my rented home at D6W got stolen)
6. Irish people are not friendly to colored people. (I can feel it at pub/shopping)


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## bogwarrior (1 Sep 2006)

interyu said:


> As a Non-national working in Ireland, I would like to add my view of Ireland. I will leave Ireland soon or later for the following reasons:
> 
> 1. Overpriced property
> 2. Poor public transport
> ...



if everything is so bad, why are you living here?  I don't mean that in a smart way, but you seem to be having a pretty terrible time here and not to like the place, so I'm intrigued as to why you would want to stay?


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## interyu (1 Sep 2006)

bogwarrior said:


> if everything is so bad, why are you living here? I don't mean that in a smart way, but you seem to be having a pretty terrible time here and not to like the place, so I'm intrigued as to why you would want to stay?


 
I said I would leave soon. Maybe Jan next year to UK or Australia.


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## ontour (1 Sep 2006)

i am not surprised you are leaving, so would I if my whole house was stolen !!!

"my rented house at D6W got stolen"

Have you put up pictures of it in the neighbourhood to see if anyone has seen it?


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## interyu (1 Sep 2006)

Irish people think they live in the center of universe. In fact, it is not the case. I would laugh at this everytime, when some radio presenters say ‘Now we are live at Dublin, the best city in the world’ . I am sure you also hear it when you are driving.


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## CelloPoint (1 Sep 2006)

GeneralZod said:


> No more anti-irish and probably less so than the anglo-phobia that is prevalent in the Irish media.



I think it's more of an Irish inferiority complex. Just look at anyone with new money - they talk funny, send their kids to protestant schools, all of a sudden have a new interest in polo playing/shooting/fox-hunting, want to live alongside old money and drop the kids off to French lessons in their Range Rovers/Bentleys/Aston Martins/Jaguars.

When I'm down around Waterford, I often see Lord Waterford's son about Carrick-on-Suir. He's a classy guy - mannerly, soft-spoken, well-educated and drives an old pre-2000 Nissan Primera. He doesn't need to announce to the world that he's got a couple of thousand acres.

The Irish new money model themselves on the British gentry (but without the culture, the class nor the taste) and it's akin to the way the black rapper feels the need to bling-bling up the latest car which was probably designed by a white man.

What was wrong with being a nation of saints, scholars, literarys and hard-workers? We're now a nation of hethons, ignorami, illiterates and carousers.

AFAIC, we've been swept away in a funny sort of globalised, self-centred, individualistic culture with strong British (and American) influence. You'll see the kind of people I'm talking about in places like: Dundrum Shopping Centre, Cafe en Seine, Ron Blacks, The Odeon, Brown Thomas, etc. But maybe this is just the way of the brave new world we live in...


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## bogwarrior (1 Sep 2006)

interyu said:


> Irish people think they live in the center of universal. In fact, it is not the case. I would laugh at this everytime, when some radio presenters say ‘Now we are live at Dublin, the best city in the world’ . I am sure you also hear it when you are driving.




ah, they just do that to annoy you.  Sure everyone knows Cork is the centre of the universe!


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

CelloPoint said:


> You'll see the kind of people I'm talking about in places like: Dundrum Shopping Centre, Cafe en Seine, Ron Blacks, The Odeon, Brown Thomas, etc. But maybe this is just the way of the brave new world we live in...


 
But these places are all in Dublin. Aren't boggers the same as they always were?

Is it just Dubliners (or probably more specifically south-siders) that are "globalised, self-centred, individualistic culture with strong British (and American) influence"?

And weren't they always like that, i.e. the term "west-Brits"?


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

interyu said:


> I would laugh at this everytime, when some radio presenters say ‘Now we are live at Dublin, the best city in the world’ . I am sure you also hear it when you are driving.


 
You'll find this attitude wherever you go, anywhere in the world. It's not just an Irish thing. You go to New York and you'll find the same thing. My favourite was the NY1 news channel which had 30seconds news every hour on "the world outside New York" and they talked about what was happening across the river in Jersey.


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## Arthur Daley (1 Sep 2006)

CelloPoint said:


> I think it's more of an Irish inferiority complex. Just look at anyone with new money - they talk funny, send their kids to protestant schools, all of a sudden have a new interest in polo playing/shooting/fox-hunting, want to live alongside old money and drop the kids of to French lessons in their Range Rovers/Bentleys/Aston Martins/Jaguars.
> 
> The Irish new money model themselves on the British gentry (but without the culture, the class nor the taste) and it's akin to the way the black rapper feels the need to bling-bling up the latest car which was probably designed by a white man.
> 
> AFAIC, we've been swept away in a funny sort of globalised, self-centred, individualistic culture with strong British (and American) influence. You'll see the kind of people I'm talking about in places like: Dundrum Shopping Centre, Cafe en Seine, Ron Blacks, The Odeon, Brown Thomas, etc. But maybe this is just the way of the brave new world we live in...


 
I know exactly what you mean. It sure is an inferiority complex..............


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## FrankBascomb (1 Sep 2006)

You'll see the kind of people I'm talking about in places like: Dundrum Shopping Centre, Cafe en Seine, Ron Blacks, The Odeon, Brown Thomas, etc. But maybe this is just the way of the brave new world we live in...[/quote]


Sorry, but why go there then, if you so despise them? Why don't you go somewhere more cultural or saintly or scholarly, if that is what you're after? 
There are plenty of options - go see a play, walk in the country, read a great book, watch a foreign movie...



By the way, what are hethons and literarys? Are you just trying to prove a point about us being a nation of illiterates?


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## evan (1 Sep 2006)

Ive lived away on and off for the last seven years, nearly 2 years in britain, year in australia, year in canada. I think overall Ireland is still way better than britain, on a par with canada, but australia is the best of all. I would never choose britain over ireland at the moment i found the people there cold and unfriendly that was my enduring image of it. Canada was nice and the people were friendly although I think Ireland has a better social life. However not easy to emigrate there due to the points system. However australia seems to have it all in my opinion, friendly people, inexpensive, great weather and great social life although emigration also not easy. I hope ireland does not turn into a mini britain I think that would be bad unless Britain improves an awful lot.


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## Cati76 (1 Sep 2006)

ronan_d_john said:


> You'll find this attitude wherever you go, anywhere in the world. It's not just an Irish thing. You go to New York and you'll find the same thing. My favourite was the NY1 news channel which had 30seconds news every hour on "the world outside New York" and they talked about what was happening across the river in Jersey.


 
I don't think so. As a non-national also, I found appalling the poor coverage international news get here. Unless one or more irish citizen are killed somewhere outside the country, when then you might get something. I can't tell you what are the news like now back at home, have been gone for 4 years, so things might have change, but it used to be first international news (mainly US, any war around the world, etc etc) National (if in a local tv station, that would include local news, that might not make it to the national stations), and then sports (which gets to much attention for my liking anyway...as there are specialise programs for that)
I remembered being home when the money that was stolen in NI was found out in Cork, and learnt about it from the newspapers at home.....same when Dolores Mcnamara won the Euromillions, family were asking if BF family new her, mind you anything like that happening outside Ireland, you wouldn't know.
Some news are only reported, as the recent train accident in Valencia, because it was thought to be a terrorist attack, otherwise it wouldn't have been mention.
Going back to topic, I live in Ireland, and while people keep asking us why don't we move back to "sunny spain", I intend to stay here until things get a bit better (work and housing wise) back home. There is pro's and con's to everything, but Spain is not that "sunny", and besides,it doesn't matter if you don't have money or time to enjoy it.


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

Cati76 said:


> I don't think so. As a non-national also, I found appalling the poor coverage international news get here. .


 
This statement is just proving my point, isn't it? By believing that you/we're the centre of the universe, we by extent, don't consider anything happening outside the country as being relevant.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing the point about international news coverage, but I don't think it supports what I think is your argument.


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## Markjbloggs (1 Sep 2006)

CelloPoint said:


> The Irish new money model themselves on the British gentry (but without the culture, the class nor the taste) and it's akin to the way the black rapper feels the need to bling-bling up the latest car which was probably designed by a white man.
> ...


 
I disagree, but that may be because my "host" country when I emigrated was USA.  Irish people today ARE more American than the Americans themselves.


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## CelloPoint (1 Sep 2006)

FrankBascomb said:


> Sorry, but why go there then, if you so despise them?


Call it a sociological case study - I'm quite serious! I have gone to observe such people in their habitat...



FrankBascomb said:


> Why don't you go somewhere more cultural or saintly or scholarly, if that is what you're after?


Why should I move? Obviously, there are going to be some pretty cool people in Ireland, but the generic ones, the ones who have bought into the consumerist's dream, the ones who have 5 credit cards and think that cold-looking resteraunts with aluminium and UV lighting are classy joints, the ones who spend their saturday afternoons 'in town' going around the shops - I depise such shallow, materialistic and uncultivated people. God love them though, they're probably so busy slaving away on the corportate ladder that they don't get the time, nor the inclination to think or dream about anything other than the next pair of shoes or the forthcoming boozy weekend. They annoy me, and I wish they'd go away - a good recession should be enough to restore a bit of decorum. Too often I find I'm about town ejoying a coffee and a cigarette, and some group of idiots will sit near me and start spouting rubbish about soccer or celebreties or some other generic topic.



FrankBascomb said:


> There are plenty of options - go see a play, walk in the country, read a great book, watch a foreign movie...


How many people actually do this do you think? I reckon most people would prefer to see some stupid hollywood comedy, read a Dan Brown book/some other airport 'classic', walk through Jervis Street shopping centre or to go along to some silly music festival and be herded around like a cow. 



FrankBascomb said:


> By the way, what are hethons and literarys? Are you just trying to prove a point about us being a nation of illiterates?


Oh go and call the spelling police would you?


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## Glenbhoy (1 Sep 2006)

> Eh, how can you put the Daily Telegraph in the same sentence as the Daily Mail?


The Tele has long been the most reviled newspaper by northern nationalists (The Mail obviously runs it close).  In fact several acquaintances of mine from of a unionist persuasion used to call it "The Daily Orange".



> I said I would leave soon. Maybe Jan next year to UK or Australia


.
You might want to revise that Australia move, if it's racism you're looking to avoid.  I know the irish aren't great on it, but we're not bad either.


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## JohnBoy (1 Sep 2006)

i would say that the Irish newly-moneyed types model themselves less on the British gentry and more on the British social equivalent - posh'n'becks and Jordan & Peter spring to mind.


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

CelloPoint said:


> and some group of idiots will sit near me and start spouting rubbish about soccer


 
How dare they! The cheek of them! 

Lets kill them all by exhaling cigarette smoke on them, cause that's the non-shallow and cultivated thing to do.


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## Glenbhoy (1 Sep 2006)

> but the generic ones, the ones who have bought into the consumerist's dream, the ones who have 5 credit cards and think that cold-looking resteraunts with aluminium and UV lighting are classy joints, the ones who spend their saturday afternoons 'in town' going around the shops - I depise such shallow, materialistic and uncultivated people


Maybe those people enjoy their lives Cello, you've really got to lighten up, this cultural elistism you got going on can't be pleasant.  There's no need to be so judgemental, live and let live.....


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

Glenbhoy said:


> Maybe those people enjoy their lives Cello, you've really got to lighten up, this cultural elistism you got going on can't be pleasant. There's no need to be so judgemental, live and let live.....


 
Mind your spelling there Glenbhoy, you'll upset Cello even more.   But now that you mention it, it really struck me reading the rant that he/she was portraying themselves in exactly the same manner of the type of people they're purporting to be having a go at.

Sitting outside having a coffee and a cigarette? Whoever heard? That's not an Irish thing to do. What's wrong with sitting in a dingy pub on a Saturday afternoon watching the match?


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## GeneralZod (1 Sep 2006)

ronan_d_john said:


> Anti-Irish Irish media?
> 
> Which newspapers? Which journalists?



Here's the start of that sentence for you.

The daily telegraph is no more anti-irish and probably less so than the anglo-phobia that is prevalent in the Irish media.

The Sunday Business Post/Damien Kiberd. 
The Irish Times/Eddie Holt.
The letters page of the IT can usually be counted on to have at least one anglophobe.

Same question to you. Newspapers and journalists.


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## FrankBascomb (1 Sep 2006)

CelloPoint said:


> Call it a sociological case study - I'm quite serious! I have gone to observe such people in their habitat...
> 
> 
> Why should I move?



- I'm not asking you to move, Cellopoint, I'm just saying there are other ways to spend your time. Why waste time being obsessed with a lifestyle or people that you despise? Why bother? Life is too short. 

-How many people actually do this do you think? I reckon most people would prefer to see some stupid hollywood comedy, read a Dan Brown book/some other airport 'classic', walk through Jervis Street shopping centre or to go along to some silly music festival and be herded around like a cow. 

- why does it matter what "most people" want to do? If they want to read a Dan Brown book, let them (and Dan Brown is hardly an Irish phenomenon). You can spend your time reading Proust or Joyce, if you so wish. By the way, I went to the theatre last week and it was packed - is this similar to your "sociological case study" carried out in Dundrum shopping Centre?


Oh go and call the spelling police would you?

- Please don't be sensitive on the spelling issue -I was merely pointing out the irony of misspelling your criticism of us as a nation of ignorami and illiterates.


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## casiopea (1 Sep 2006)

ronan_d_john said:


> You'll find this attitude wherever you go, anywhere in the world.



I respectively disagree, fair enough maybe you might find the same attitude in NY but not anywhere in the world by a long shot.  Ive lived and worked in many cities and havent experienced it (including NY and calafornia).  Ive frequently heard the "you lot [irish] think you're the centre of the universe" critism I personally think it comes about as traditionally Ireland was quite a homogenous society, we were irish people on an irish island and quite frankly to us we were the centre of the universe.  Now Dublin and Ireland have many nationalities, people's children are in classes with children from other cultures and religions "the centre of the universe" feeling  I think will no longer apply (in our generation maybe but certainly) in future generations.


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

GeneralZod said:


> The daily telegraph is no more anti-irish and probably less so than the anglo-phobia that is prevalent in the Irish media.


 
Ooops.  . Apologies. In my rush to 1000 posts I guess I'm not reading everything as fully as I should.


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## GeneralZod (1 Sep 2006)

ronan_d_john said:


> Ooops.  . Apologies. In my rush to 1000 posts I guess I'm not reading everything as fully as I should.



Well that's alright then. Calming down now..


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## Humpback (1 Sep 2006)

GeneralZod said:


> Well that's alright then. Calming down now..


 
Good. Apologies again. Up to 998 now.


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## room305 (1 Sep 2006)

CelloPoint said:


> ... I depise such shallow, materialistic and uncultivated people. God love them though, they're probably so busy slaving away on the corportate ladder that they don't get the time, nor the inclination to think or dream about anything other than the next pair of shoes or the forthcoming boozy weekend. They annoy me, and I wish they'd go away - a good recession should be enough to restore a bit of decorum.



Ah, for a glorious return to the halycon days when we were all pennyless, sober and spent our days fervently discussing _Ulysses_ and _At Swim-two-birds_.

Seriously, it's a bit much to hope for recession just to satisfy your cultural snobbery. The great heaving masses don't disappear during a recession you know.

Why am I reminded of Travis Bickle?



> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All the animals come out at night - whores, skunk pussies,  buggers, queens, fairies, dopers, junkies, sick, venal. Someday a real rain [recession] will  come and wash all this scum off the streets.[/FONT]


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## bogwarrior (1 Sep 2006)

Cati76 said:


> I don't think so. As a non-national also, I found appalling the poor coverage international news get here. Unless one or more irish citizen are killed somewhere outside the country, when then you might get something. I can't tell you what are the news like now back at home, have been gone for 4 years, so things might have change, but it used to be first international news (mainly US, any war around the world, etc etc) National (if in a local tv station, that would include local news, that might not make it to the national stations), and then sports (which gets to much attention for my liking anyway...as there are specialise programs for that)
> I remembered being home when the money that was stolen in NI was found out in Cork, and learnt about it from the newspapers at home.....same when Dolores Mcnamara won the Euromillions, family were asking if BF family new her, mind you anything like that happening outside Ireland, you wouldn't know.
> Some news are only reported, as the recent train accident in Valencia, because it was thought to be a terrorist attack, otherwise it wouldn't have been mention.



when I lived in Australia I used always moan about the news coverage there - it was very centred on the city the station was broadcasting from, and like your experience here, the only international news you got was when it had an 'Australian angle'.  But since I've come back I've realised the media here aren't much different - RTE is as much a culprit as TV3, Todayfm etc.  I don't  know if it was always like that - upto 10 years ago we had our own war in the north which accounted for probably 50% of the coverage.

anyway, nowadays I tune into the BBC World Service.


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## pernickety (1 Sep 2006)

ha ha, this topic is classic!


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## Remix (1 Sep 2006)

I'm afraid, Cellopoint, that confronting the issues facing Ireland particularly the runaway debt problem is like attempting an intervention with someone descending the depths of alcoholism. They just don't want to know.

The celtic tiger seemed to be going great guns up until about 2001. At that point it stalled and rather step-back and consolidate, we launched into a borrowing binge that makes a mockery of - and I think will eventually undo - much of what was achieved during the celtic tiger era.

We seem to be heading from poverty to wealth to debt and back down again without the usual intervening period of civilisation/culture. Bit of a joke really !


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## Solutions (1 Sep 2006)

My wife and I both left Ireland seperatly in the 80's, when things were really bad in Ireland.  We spent 13-14 years in various parts of the UK where we met, married, baught and sold houses and eventully had childern.  Then 5-6 years ago we returned to Ireland to live as our parents were getting older.  we moved to Dublin, with all its increasing house prices, but I would do it again in an instant!   Family is more important then you think when you are away.  It is gereat to be near the family and to be able to visit them on a whim and when things go wrong there is support.  This is more important that I would ever have thought possible.  Also we are where we belong, at home in Ireland, and it is a great country.


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## dontaskme (2 Sep 2006)

CelloPoint said:


> We're now a nation of hethons, ignorami, illiterates and carousers.


Cello, you may be making the mistake of not distinguishing between the projected image and the reality. 

Irish people don't tend to project the café culture, but that does not mean there is no culture there. If you met Patrick Kavanagh in the pub you might think he was an ignorant carouser, because he did not present the image of the _soi disant_ intellectual. Similarly Brendan Behan, or countless others.

You might find that many of the European café intellectuals who seem so clever of a _Gauloise_ and espresso are in fact just as shallow and possibly more ignorant under their turtleneck veneer as your perception of Irish people.


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## fitzy73 (3 Sep 2006)

ronan_d_john;270671i said:
			
		

> Please elaborate on the "pile of dog doo doo" that we're heading for.
> Manufacturing in decline, interest rates skyrocketing, no control of the economy because of the ECB, 30% of the workforce directly or indirectly involved in the construction business, Brussels looking at the 12.5% rate.
> Ireland's interest rate is currently 3%, 1.5% less than the United Kingdom. Interest rates globally (EU, UK and US) are on the upward trend, so we're likely to see this gap remain rather than converge in your timeframe.
> Unlike Ireland, the UK (thankfully) still has independent control of its interest rates. If you think the ECB will hold rates because of property prices in Ireland you are sadly mistaken.
> ...


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## macbri (3 Sep 2006)

I have been living in Australia 4 last 3 years and have gone back to Ireland twice 4 a couple of months in the last 2 years.

I couldn't move back to Ireland due to lifestyle,cost of living including house prices and weather.

At the moment,I can take 10-15 weeks off a year ,rent a 2 bedroom city centre apartment with pool,security and gym and generally have a much more relaxed lifesytle.
I have sampled Londons'/Dublins' lifestyle and neither compare to sydney(I knew thats' only my opinion).

I find it hard here to spend money compared to when back in Dublin where it disappears so quickly.

A couple of examples,we just got our quarterly electricity bill came in at $83aud,same for gas bill,phone bill with broadband comes in at $80aud per month.

Went shopping with the other half this weekend bill came in at $75 coupled with rent of $190pw leaves me with discretionary spending of $800pw(currently clearing $1100 per week on contract work)


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## Humpback (4 Sep 2006)

fitzy73 said:
			
		

> Again, agreed. There is huge level of personal debt here - but I honestly believe we are over the hump.






			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> Have you managed to venture out recently mate?


 



			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> Dunno if you did Economics mate in your Leaving


 
Eh, mate? You're not Irish at all, are you, mate? 




			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> I have to say people like you are also a major reason why I wouldn't go home again - people who would rather sit in the pub and talk about how much they have made this week in "equity" and deluding themselves on the never never of false economy of stupid property prices. I hope it holds well for you.


 
Please explain where you're getting the information from this discussion to base any of these comments in order to be able to make such a personal attack on me? If you can't detail this, I expect an apology immediately.

You're the only one giving the impression that such things as equity and house prices are of any concern here. Like that's any different to your aim in life as detailed here - 




			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> Really. So a job where I have a defined career path, a salary increase every year, an opportunity to sit on the board of Directors etc should be given up.


 
Good luck to you.


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## Purple (4 Sep 2006)

CelloPoint, you seem to be very insecure about anyone who has made money over the last few years, treating them all as shallow and hedonistic. I am sure you are aware, given your implied intellectual prowess, that there is no correlation between intellectual shallowness and a hedonistic life style. Indeed in many cases the opposite it true.
Now I’m no intellectual, going to the theatre three or four times a year, I rarely read the Booker prize short list and find John Banville hard going. I have also gone to many of those unholy places in Dublin that you mention and have quite enjoyed myself. Yes the superficiality and shallowness of SOME of the people there can get on my nerves but it does not overwhelm me as it does you. 
I also see no dichotomy between being a soccer fan and having an interest in the arts. I am not a soccer fan, but watch the odd match, and would be in the national gallery about once a year (more if there is an exhibition that I am interested in). I think you may find that the culturally rich country of Italy, where the arts and “high culture” are part of every day life, is also football obsessed. 
You seem to suffer from that most uncultured of phenomenon; you are contemptuous of that which you do not understand.


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## Humpback (4 Sep 2006)

Okay, I'm bored at work, so lets have a look to see if any of your statistics quoted now are any better than your original one's which have proven to be incorrect, at your own admission.

You say - 





			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> Manufacturing in decline,


 in Ireland, and by implication, the UK is a much better place to be. I say, what's the difference between manufacturing output here declining, and declining in the UK - see here.




			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> interest rates skyrocketing,


 You've already acknowledged that you're not correct here.




			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> no control of the economy because of the ECB,


 Not strictly true. We haven't had control over our interest rates since 1998. We've always had control over our economy.




			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> 30% of the workforce directly or indirectly involved in the construction business, Brussels looking at the 12.5% rate.


 
Taking like with like, the percentage in Ireland is 12.5%, and a similar comparison with the UK is 7%. Hardly that great a difference really, is it?





			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> Unlike Ireland, the UK (thankfully) still has independent control of its interest rates.



You really are an English person pretending to be Irish, aren't you?





			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> Ahem, hello?? Have you managed to venture out recently mate? Ireland is a sea of simmering racism, an undercurrent which will come out in the next few years. Maybe you live in a nice D4 semi, where you are not exposed to the tension, but believe you me its there. Have a walk through Dell in Limerick, ask a carpenter in Dublin, ask the council in Meath.


 
I never said that Ireland wasn't racist. Surely you know that most places in the world you go to there's some sort of resentment on the part of those less well off towards those who are either better off, or towards those who are seen to be benefitting from the fact that they are in such a position.

The expression of how this racism manifests itself is what I was referring to. I haven't seen groups of disillusioned Muslims blowing up any Dublin Buses or Irish Rail trains yet.





			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> "We are different, it won't happen to us". Dunno if you did Economics mate in your Leaving, but did you ever hear of cycles? Course Ireland is different.



Again, you seem to be missing my point. You're raising all these things as to why your United Kingdom is better than our Ireland. I'm arguing that they're on a par, pretty much. 

I never said there wasn't, or wouldn't be, a property crash in Ireland, but holding out the UK as being the place to be, you're ignoring your/their history with regards to property prices.




			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> Really. So a job where I have a defined career path, a salary increase every year, an opportunity to sit on the board of Directors etc should be given up.



Not at all, MATE! You climb the corporate ladder over there. Become a success, look down on your background and your friends back at home because you're a Director now. We'll still support your parents in their old age by paying our taxes and funding the PRSI contributions.



			
				fitzy73 said:
			
		

> I have to say people like you are also a major reason why I wouldn't go home again - people who would rather sit in the pub and talk about how much they have made this week in "equity" and deluding themselves on the never never of false economy of stupid property prices. I hope it holds well for you.



And you're the reason I don't live in the UK any more. I had, and still have, acquaintences who have moved away from Ireland and instantly everything in Ireland is crap. You look down and make disparaging remarks, from afar. You believe the grass is always greener, and while it may be for you specifically, it doesn't give you the right to hark back and tell us all how **** our lives are going to be.


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## ragazza (7 Sep 2006)

Back to the original question of would we expats move back to ireland.
I'm in the position of making that decision - every year I think "just one more year here", but I cant keep saying that, or I'll never move back.

Reasons to move back:
 - ageing parents
 - siblings and nieces and nephews
 - friends
 - be more settled (not feeling like a nomad)

Reasons to stay:
 - weather
 - cost of living
 - access to mountains for skiing, coast for diving

Its a very difficult decision to make - I feel like I'm part of two cultures now, and dont know which to choose. It would nearly make me wish I had never emigrated in the first place!


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## moneypitt (8 Sep 2006)

ragazza said:


> Reasons to move back:
> - ageing parents
> - siblings and nieces and nephews
> - friends
> - be more settled (not feeling like a nomad)



I know a lot of non-nationals moving back to their home countries for *exactly *same reasons as you have listed. I guess that makes us all human!

I am a non-national working here for last six or so years. I have a family here (she’s Irish), above the national average income; stable job and I don’t mind the weather either (growing up in tropical Southern India, rain is lifeline and cold weather a luxury!).

However, I am now considering moving back for the same reasons as ‘ragazza’ posted, and to top it up, the long commute to work, relatively low salary (compared to US, UK or other ‘foreign’ places where I can find work), higher cost of everything –professional fees, crèche and such facilities, uncertainty about income, taxes, jobs and economy in general with the housing boom in mind etc, the extreme bad state of health service (can’t afford private, and can’t afford to wait for public – where as excellent and affordable private health care in affordable to Indian middle-class). 

There are concerns about ethnic discrimination, especially when the global terrorism keeps coming closer and closer to Ireland, I am noticing a proportional increase in racial intolerance - because I look like one of them! It’s especially disheartening when I have already suffered a lot in another part of the world due to the same terrorist groups, and now I am being branded one of them! However, it’s not one of my major concerns at the moment.

Six years ago, the main reason to move here was the high income and the life in the first world. Today my priorities are changing. I can no longer have the lifestyle I want with my income here. I have a lot of respect for this country, but in my own case, its getting less attractive as time goes by, and I can see greener pastures to move to.


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## annR (8 Sep 2006)

ragazza said:


> Reasons to stay:
> - weather
> - cost of living
> - access to mountains for skiing, coast for diving


 
But Ireland has great mountains and coast  

I lived in Australia for a while but found that lifestyle some people go there for wasn't everything.  Moving to Australia for sun and barbecues . . . now that's shallow.

I try my best to live in Dublin on my own terms  .. . I still feel like a hamster though.  I think that the number of Irish people who have no connection at all to their own culture is really sad.


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## Humpback (8 Sep 2006)

annR said:


> I try my best to live in Dublin on my own terms


 
Having lived in London, New York and Hong Kong for the most of 10 years, I think this statement best puts how you approach living in different countries, and what will change if/when you move home.

I found that you could very much live in London and New York on your own terms (in an almost selfish kind of way).  You do your job, you get paid, and then do your own thing, whatever that may be. You don't necessarily have to care about politics, taxes, how things are run, etc etc.

Living in Ireland, you don't necessarily get the opportunity to live life on your own terms. And not necessarily because you want to become more engaged than you would do in London or New York. 

Moreso because the way life is in this country, and because it's home, more things impinge on your ability to live life on your own terms. And in ways, that can either be good or can be bad. Plus, you care more about what happens in general in this country than an adopted home.


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## joe sod (8 Sep 2006)

moneypitt said:


> I know a lot of non-nationals moving back to their home countries for *exactly *same reasons as you have listed. I guess that makes us all human!
> 
> I am a non-national working here for last six or so years. I have a family here (she’s Irish), above the national average income; stable job and I don’t mind the weather either (growing up in tropical Southern India, rain is lifeline and cold weather a luxury!).
> 
> ...


 
So you are most definitely an "economic migrant", you have no attatchment to the country besides income and lifestyle, if they do not fit your requirements you up and leave for somewhere else. This is one of the reasons why there may be some antagonism towards immigrants. The perception is that they have no connection with the country and are only here for the money.


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## Cati76 (8 Sep 2006)

joe sod said:


> So you are most definitely an "economic migrant", you have no attatchment to the country besides income and lifestyle, if they do not fit your requirements you up and leave for somewhere else. This is one of the reasons why there may be some antagonism towards immigrants. The perception is that they have no connection with the country and are only here for the money.


 
Now, I think that's a bit harsh. There is a lot of us here, paying same taxes as you do, and looking after ourselves. He said his OH is irish, so there is a connection here. I came here just on hols, and then after falling in love with the country and (most of the ) people, decided to stay longer. It's been 4 years now, and counting. Not sure when or if I'll move back home, but I don't think that I am doing anything wrong to be discriminate for not being Irish. A lot of irish peolple are leaving all around the world, sure you should be a more understanding about "economic migrants", one lives where one can find a job....


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## moneypitt (8 Sep 2006)

Joe,

I am really not sure if you really have a point or just if that was just an opportunistic argument. I have clearly explained the reason to move here, and have also explained reasonably well that I have set up a life here, a home, a family and everything like average Joe (no pun intended).

I came here on invitation from an Irish employer, since they felt they needed my technical expertise here, and I am sure they followed the FAS / other rules before taking me in. I pay the tax, bills and obey the law and compete and work hard to win my bread. In fact, for first five years in here, even after paying taxes and PRSI contributions, I am not eligible most of the state benefits, like unemployment benefit, that you would take for granted. If you take a profile of whom you would classify as ‘economic migrants’, you will easily see that this class earns above national average, pays taxes above national average, and is a lesser burden to the welfare (because they are never on it). Irish ministers frequently visits India to canvas students to come and join Irish universities, and business delegations sets up recruitment drives to allure Indian IT and medical professionals to come and join here. I hope that explains I am not here because I jumped on a plane with a fake rag doll in a pillow stuffed around my waist or something! 

Now, if we are clear on that, and if we agree that the ‘economic migrant’ works are legally here, lets just see what the Irish government is doing to keep them here. Honestly, from first hand experience, not a lot! I have to queue up at 5AM by the quays every now and then to get the visa extended, then a queue up again to get it stamped multiple entry etc are just minor annoyances compared to how difficult it is to integrate to the Irish social structure as a non-Irish. I won’t go on about that, I think I was lucky to meet someone I liked when I was here, and that she didn’t jump to conclusions like some people does, and her family can see past my skin color. We have a wonderful life and plenty of plans for the future (which includes buying a tropical island, and setting up tourism business there – no kidding!!). When I mentioned moving out of Ireland earlier on, that would include her too!

Having said all that, if I decided to move out of Ireland, that would not be because of the type of ‘hostility towards economic migrants’ here, but more because of the other reasons I mentioned – which is purely a lifestyle thing. People go where the jobs are, where they can earn a living and maintain a lifestyle they like. If you know someone moving to Afghanistan or something let me know – or let guards know, because its likely that they are not after money and lifestyle but something else.  People don’t move away from where they are born and used to because of better beer!


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