# Another child gone



## dmos87 (29 Aug 2010)

This was really quite upsetting to hear on the radio / TV over the last 2 days. 

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/girl-12-murdered-and-body-dumped-2316256.html

For me, simply because I have younger sisters in their early to mid teens and I worry quite a lot about who they hang around with, where they are, what are they up to, are they safe.

What I can't understand though is why a 12 year old girl (still a child, not a teenager) was out until mid-night?? This is FAR too late for a 12 year old. My 16 year old sister has a curfew of 10.30pm on weekend nights and for the summer months and MUST be collected by a family member to come home, no walking on her own or in groups. 

_"It is understood that having returned home, she told her parents she was stepping out for a moment. "_

It's midnight and she has just returned home - what in the world does a 12 year old need to step outside for? I know everyone is different, but if it were my house my little sister was staying in (which she does often on weekends) and she asked me the above, she would have been told no as its far too late and she should be in bed.

You have to question the level of freedom this child was given. I am 23 years old, only out of my teens a few years and I seriously see problems with this. Have things changed so much in a decade? When I was 12, I don't think I ever saw mid-night. I was always either in bed asleep well before then or watching TV with my parents on the weekend.

This poor family are living in a nightmare right now, and I truly feel for them, what happed was wrong and I pray the person who has done this is punished severely for taking such a young life. However, I cannot help but feel that if she had been monitored more closely (like a 12 year old child should be) she may still be alive today.


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## MandaC (29 Aug 2010)

I have no children but thought it odd that a 12 year old was out and about at that time of the night.


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## UFC (29 Aug 2010)

When I read the story I thought that was very weird too. The cynic in me finds it a bit suspicious in fact! But as I say, I'm a cynic.


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## Romulan (29 Aug 2010)

Agreed, its very strange, that and 15 year old girls at all night parties with their 17 year old boyfriends.

Its hard not to rush to judgment.  Or maybe that's exactly where we should rush.


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## Graham_07 (29 Aug 2010)

One cannot comprehend the distress and pain of this family. However we have adult children of 24 and 21 years. If any of them , at age 12, said they were going out for a while at midnight, they would not be going out. End of. Maybe we're old fashioned. It is terribly sad.


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## JP1234 (29 Aug 2010)

Romulan said:


> Its hard not to rush to judgment.  Or maybe that's exactly where we should rush.



My exact thoughts.  While we don't know the full circumstances you have to question what on earth is going on that a 12 year old child can tell her family she is going out at midnight for a few minutes and then not be reported missing for 2 hours?

It's actually leaving me speechless.


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## starlite68 (29 Aug 2010)

why are 12 year olds let out at all....full stop!


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## Yachtie (29 Aug 2010)

The first that struck me as odd too was 'poping out at midnight'. My heart really goes out to the parents and I am really struggling not to be judgemental. 

I remember saying to my husband 'I hope it's not a girl' when we found out I was pregnant (we have a baby boy). My personal observation of a lot of teenage girls (unfortunately including some extended family members) is that they look and behave like prostitutes, use no common sense and haven't a clue about the concept of personal safety. 

A friend of mine has a 16 year old daughter who came back home at 3am (was expected at 11pm) drunk. The father drove around for hours looking for her. She switched her mobile off to avoid parent's calls. When questioned about her whereabouts by the parents, she told them to F off and the father slapped her. A couple of months later, the parents were questioned by the gardai, social services and HSE about the child molestation. The daughter in question used a slap (described God knows how) as an excuse for not having her homework or something and the school reported the parents. They've been through hell over it!

I've been thinking about this a lot lately (being a new parent and all that) BUT how far are you *allowed* to go in disciplining your child? If, based on my friend's example, the poor girl was told that she is not going out at that hour, would somebody actually believe her if she complained about being under house arrest by the parents or whatever would be the most accurate name for it?


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## Jim Davis (29 Aug 2010)

Reminds me of the film Gone Baby Gone.


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## RMCF (30 Aug 2010)

Very sad story. The parents will be heartbroken, but I too have to question what has happened among elements of our society when it is seen as nothing unusual for a 12yr old to pop out again at midnight.

You do hate to rush to conclusions, but most peoples image of the parents will be formed already.


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## PaddyW (30 Aug 2010)

Very weird. I wasn't allowed to go out, properly, until I was 18. Youth club discos before that were the only times I was allowed out and that's because they were supervised. Strange that a 12 year old is out that late.


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## Protocol (30 Aug 2010)

Three cases in the last week or so:

*1) The Killarney car accident*

Of the 5 people in the car, the oldest was 19.

Did he/she have a full licence? Insurance?

Note that the car was not owned by any of the five people.


*2) The 12-year old in west Dublin*

*3) And here's another one:*

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0830/rta.html


"Seven teenagers have been taken to hospital following a road accident in Co Mayo.
They had been travelling in a car which hit a wall and a pole at Church Street in Foxford at 4.30am."


Questions:

Why are people so young all driving cars?

Why are people so young all out and about at 4:30am?


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## pixiebean22 (30 Aug 2010)

"Questions:

Why are people so young all driving cars?

Why are people so young all out and about at 4:30am?"

I can only offer an answer to the first question and that is to say that there is no other way of getting around in rural areas.  Yes, speed may be involved, alcohol/drugs may be involved, inexperienced, reckless drivers may be at the wheel but I'm not implying that any of these were a factor.  What is a definite factor is that there is no other way to get around in these areas.  

I was amazed when I read in one of the newspaper reports that the girl mentioned to her family that she was popping out at midnight.  Popping out?  I would've been laughed at at age 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 if I had suggested to my parents at midnight that I was popping out (and if I lived at home past age 18 I would probably still have been subjected to an interrogation after age 18!)


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## pinkyBear (30 Aug 2010)

> there is no other way of getting around in rural areas


, I grew up in the country, when I wanted to go out my father drove me, and picked me up. I have embarresing memories of this! However I was always safe.. 

This poor child was given way to much freedom at a young age. 

As adults we know the risks, and it is up to an adult or parent to manage that risk. It is my personal opinion that the parents of these children failed their children because the freedome they gave thhose children put the childrens lives at risk...
p..


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## pixiebean22 (30 Aug 2010)

I grew up in very rural Kerry, my dad is from Mayo so I spent a lot of time up there as well.  My parents refused (and rightly so) to become a taxi service for my brother and sister and I, instead insisting that we take on responsibility for ourselves.  Instead they instilled in us proper respect for the road and other road users.  We all learned to drive as early as possible and my sister and I have never had an accident, my brother was in his mid 20s before he had an accident.


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## Sim Two (30 Aug 2010)

We (society) have let our youngsters grow up too quickly in the last 15 years. We have given them too much freedom, allowed them earn too much money, and, as a result, parents are playing an increasingly reduced role in their upbringing. Their role models are more likely to be taken from celebrity-land rather than their home.

These kids are finding themselves in situations that they don’t have the necessary emotional skills to deal with and are obviously making a lot of wrong choices. 

As parents, we have to take a huge amount of the blame for this. Boundaries have been pushed way- too- far in relation to what teenagers should be allowed do and we have to learn that it is perfectly OK to say to our children 


No, you cannot have a Facebook page
No, you cannot have a TV in your bedroom
No, you cannot have unrestricted access to the Internet
No, you cannot get an Apple iPhone – the IPOD you have is fine 
No, you cannot go out looking like a prostitute 
No, you are not going to Ibiza with your 24 classmates
etc etc etc


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## Complainer (30 Aug 2010)

You can say 'No' all you like, but don't underestimate the ability of teenagers to get their own way, if they really, really want it. They will cliimb out the bedroom window if grounded. They will change into their more extravagant clothes at their friends house, so you don't see them. They will get web access at a web cafe or the library or their friends house, etc. 

It's not just a matter of saying no. You need to have mutual trust in place, so that they know why you are saying no.


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## pixiebean22 (30 Aug 2010)

Agree with complainer.

There is no better place to see kids changing into their "prostitute" clothes after leaving the house in "parent approved" clothes than behind the garage across the road from the wesley rugby ground (not trying to turn this into a debate about _that_) on a friday night and then changing back again, leaving mum and dad none the wiser.


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## pinkyBear (30 Aug 2010)

Hi there, Complainer and pixie, I agree with both of you, in that you cannot protect against the scenarios you mention. However that does not mean you give a teenage full freedom. A parent can only do the best they can to advise a child against risk and should the child sneak behind your back - well what can you do!

However to allow a child out until 12 midnight, or go to an all night party.. thats another thing entirely...


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## pixiebean22 (30 Aug 2010)

While all the newspapers are reporting this child told her parents she was popping out, that may not be the whole story and her parents may have been mislead and maybe she was "sneaking behind their back".  She may have told them she was going two doors down to her buddy's house (albeit at 12 o'clock) when maybe that was not her intention at all (or maybe it was, who knows).


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## villa 1 (30 Aug 2010)

Sim Two said:


> We (society) have let our youngsters grow up too quickly in the last 15 years. We have given them too much freedom, allowed them earn too much money, and, as a result, parents are playing an increasingly reduced role in their upbringing. Their role models are more likely to be taken from celebrity-land rather than their home.
> 
> These kids are finding themselves in situations that they don’t have the necessary emotional skills to deal with and are obviously making a lot of wrong choices.
> 
> ...


 And theres's no mobile phone for you until you reach 18 yrs of age. Mobile phones are the great escape route for teens, alibi's, planning, scheming etc. 
Have a look at what teenage girls(12-14) are wearing to so called supervised discos or should I say what they're not wearing. Get them brethalysed as well to check for drink, because they're at that too!!


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## Latrade (31 Aug 2010)

Are we linking kids having mobile phones (and a lot of parents I know are glad their kids have them) with what is an extremely rare occurrence: the murder of a young child?

I'll admit the initial aspects raised do seem odd, the difference for me is that it may well be a once off or even just a relaxation of curfews over the summer and the parents have paid the ultimate price for that decision.

But yeah, society is doomed because one generation thinks the new generation has no idea how easy they have it, have all turned into heathen whores and back in my day... sounds all too familiar, in fact I'm pretty sure it's been said and will be said about each new generation. 

Besides, this new generation are going to be stuck with all the debt we so responsibly (having grown up without mobile phones or skirts that go above the ankle) put their way and not too much chance of any jobs there to help pay that debt. Go party kids I say, the last chance you'll have for a while.


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## Firefly (31 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> It's not just a matter of saying no. You need to have mutual trust in place, so that they know why you are saying no.


 
I agree with this. I'd also add that parents have a role in educating their children in the dangers out there, particularly in the internet arena. Even regarding the likes of employers searching Facebook etc for interview candidates. There should also IMO be a role for this education in our late primary/secorndary schools.


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## villa 1 (31 Aug 2010)

Latrade said:


> Are we linking kids having mobile phones (and a lot of parents I know are glad their kids have them) with what is an extremely rare occurrence: the murder of a young child?
> 
> I'll admit the initial aspects raised do seem odd, the difference for me is that it may well be a once off or even just a relaxation of curfews over the summer and the parents have paid the ultimate price for that decision.
> 
> ...



Who is the "We". I certainly didn't sign up for all the corruption and spending of other people's money. Parents have taken their eye off the ball in regards to teens and their boundaries. Too busy living the Tiger dream!!


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## purpeller (31 Aug 2010)

It's easy for us all to say "what were they thinking letting a 12 year old out at midnight?" but I'm sure those poor parents blame themselves entirely.  It reminds me of the Madeline McCann case, with her parents leaving their children alone in their room.

It's very sad, but it could just as easily have happened in the day time.

For the record: I wasn't allowed out til midnight until I was in 6th year, and even then it was only at the weekend, and my parents usually collected me, if I was in town.


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## terrontress (31 Aug 2010)

There are so few people on earth actually capable of committing such an act and then to have a 12 year old child actually out and about at that time, which must be a rare occurrence, makes it doubly unlikely occurrence. There appears to have been a lot of negative public reaction toward the parents allowing her out at that time of night. I would agree with it in that it is not healthy in any way, shape or form for a child to be out at that time of night. I don't think though that anyone could predict such an awful event.

Sim Two speaks an awful lot of sense. I think the big thing is not allowing a child a tv in his or her bedroom. We were never allowed one and my brother, sister and I would sit with my folks each night watching the telly. We'd discuss what we were watching and it made us more cohesive as a family. You get people nowadays whose kids have a tv in their room, they sit up there all evening, determine their own bed time and when they go out in the car they have tv screens in that. They don't even sit down to dinner together. As a result they end up having no relationship with each other whatsoever, each cocooned in their own little world not caring what is going on.

By the time it comes to slapping the child in the face or the child going out the window it is already too late. I'd like to think that such issues are less likely to occur in a strong, cohesive family pulling in the same direction.

Any kids I have will not be allowed a tv in their room, will not be allowed tvs in the car and will eat dinner at the table each evening.


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## truthseeker (31 Aug 2010)

terrontress said:


> Any kids I have will not be allowed a tv in their room, will not be allowed tvs in the car and will eat dinner at the table each evening.


 
Id be far more concerned about unsupervised internet/computer access than a tv. There are a lot of dangers on the internet.


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## dmos87 (31 Aug 2010)

What I was really asking was - is this normal now? For 12 year olds to be allowed hang out with their friends until mid-night? As I said, I am 23 and I consider my parents to be "modern" in their approach to parenting. Yet I would have been crucified if I were out that late when I was 12.

I don't see it much in my local area but that said, it would only be on the way home from the pub that I would be out myself after midnight.

Do any AAM readers see youngsters (who are clearly "young") hanging around that late at night?


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## pixiebean22 (1 Sep 2010)

In response to your question dmos, yes I do.

I live in Dublin 8 and walk my dog quite late at night (for a bit of peace) and have often been out as late as 11pm if not later with him and often see young couples kissing on the little paths along the canal and generally just hanging around.  While Dublin 8 would in general be quite built up and well lit etc etc I doubt any of those things would deter a bad person from doing a bad thing if they really wanted to.


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## Mel (1 Sep 2010)

terrontress said:


> Any kids I have will not be allowed a tv in their room, will not be allowed tvs in the car and will eat dinner at the table each evening.


 
It's very easy for those who don't have children to pontificate about how they should be raised.


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## Purple (1 Sep 2010)

Mel said:


> It's very easy for those who don't have children to pontificate about how they should be raised.



I have 4 children and there's no way they will have TV's in their rooms or be allowed out 'till 10pm (and yes, I do have a 12 year old).


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## Mel (1 Sep 2010)

Purple said:


> I have 4 children and there's no way they will have TV's in their rooms or be allowed out 'till 10pm (and yes, I do have a 12 year old).


 
Nor is mine. It still remains very easy for those who do not do, to preach to those who manage the best they can.


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## Firefly (1 Sep 2010)

Purple said:


> I have 4 children and there's no way they will have TV's in their rooms or be allowed out 'till 10pm (and yes, I do have a 12 year old).


 
+1 to that. No PC either.

Also, I think that parents should educate themselves regarding the dangers of online communications (Facebook, Twitter etc). The home pc should be locked down etc. They may get access elsewhere but at least it's more difficult to do. Also coming to an agreement with their friend's parents in this regard would help too.


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## truthseeker (1 Sep 2010)

Firefly said:


> The home pc should be locked down etc.


 
The best place for the home pc is in a public room like the kitchen where there are plenty of comings and goings.


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## pixiebean22 (1 Sep 2010)

Slightly off topic but I remember when I was in my early teens and doing a project for school on our very old pc. We didn't even have a phone line because we would've had to pay for eircom to dig up to put up phone lines etc etc so quite obviously we also didn't have the internet. 

My dad came into the spare room where the computer was kept and I was tapping away and he said to me "I hope you're not talking to any lunatics on that computer"  silly dad! This is the same man who was convinced that if someone called our landline (parents eventually decided to pay eircom) that we would be charged for the call.

Nowadays he uses text speak in his text messages


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## terrontress (1 Sep 2010)

Mel said:


> It's very easy for those who don't have children to pontificate about how they should be raised.


 
I do have kids. They are just not old enough to spend their time in their bedrooms yet.

I see no issue in not allowing them to do so. My parents never allowed us to.


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## Caveat (1 Sep 2010)

Purple said:


> I have 4 children and there's no way they will have *TV's in their rooms*


 
From what I can see this is VERY common. On the other hand I don't know anyone who will let their kids out after 9. Depending on the ages, often considerably earlier.


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## Bill Struth (1 Sep 2010)

Mel said:


> It's very easy for those who don't have children to pontificate about how they should be raised.


 Who's pontificating? Are you saying that only people with kids are allowed to have an opinion?


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## Mel (1 Sep 2010)

terrontress said:


> I do have kids. They are just not old enough to spend their time in their bedrooms yet.
> 
> I see no issue in not allowing them to do so. My parents never allowed us to.


 
Again, I don't allow tv in bedroom either. 
I'm not trying to defend allowing children out until after dark/ midnight or unlimited internet access or anything like that. 
My point is that people who don't have children say a lot of things about what will happen when they do. The reality may or may not be different, but until they are in the position to speak from a position of experience it's just hurlers on the ditch.


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## terrontress (1 Sep 2010)

Mel said:


> Again, I don't allow tv in bedroom either.
> I'm not trying to defend allowing children out until after dark/ midnight or unlimited internet access or anything like that.
> My point is that people who don't have children say a lot of things about what will happen when they do. The reality may or may not be different, but until they are in the position to speak from a position of experience it's just hurlers on the ditch.


 
Well, while I might have wanted a tv in the room at the age of 12, I am now glad as an adult that I was never allowed it. I know watching tv is often frowned upon but there was always great craic watching tv in our house together. I may have ended up as a 12 year old watching the Golden Girls on a Friday evening, but I did it with my family.

I have a cousin whose child, at the age of 10, has a flatscreen telly in her room and my cousin sees nothing wrong with her watching Girls of the Playboy Mansion!

On the odd occasion that I may have been sick and my dad moved the portable in to my bedroom; at least I had to get out of bed to change the channel!

I am sounding more and more like a grumpy old man.


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## Mel (1 Sep 2010)

Bill Struth said:


> Who's pontificating? Are you saying that only people with kids are allowed to have an opinion?


 
I found the line that I quoted to be a little condescending considering the poster wasn't speaking from experience but from an theoretical future position.
I have often seen (family members included) change their tunes once the reality of parenthood hits them. That's all that I'm saying. To maintain the most desirable standards of parenting requires a lot of personal sacrifices and not all are prepared to make those sacrifices. I'm not suggesting that this applies to any askaboutmoney subscribers.


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## Mel (1 Sep 2010)

terrontress said:


> Well, while I might have wanted a tv in the room at the age of 12, I am now glad as an adult that I was never allowed it. I know watching tv is often frowned upon but there was always great craic watching tv in our house together. I may have ended up as a 12 year old watching the Golden Girls on a Friday evening, but I did it with my family.
> 
> I have a cousin whose child, at the age of 10, has a flatscreen telly in her room and my cousin sees nothing wrong with her watching Girls of the Playboy Mansion!
> 
> ...


 
I don't even have a tv in my own bedroom!


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## becky (1 Sep 2010)

I don't have kids but my best friend seems to have it sussed. 

PC is in the kitchen and they monitor the history every so often. Facebook is allowed but parent have access to it or all deals off. Initially they were no facebook/mobile until the age of 16 but you can't keep saying no. 

As a treat say when there is a sleepover, a portable TV is put into the to room to watch a DVD and taken out the next morning.

When she's allowed out she gets a curfew of say 10 and if she's late by 15 minutes - the next curfew is 9.45 and so on. They stuck to this and now she never misses her curfew.

No way is she out wandering at 12 mn but they live a little outside the town but I do see youngsters near me out well after 11.

All in all the 14 year seems happy and so are the parents.


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## Complainer (1 Sep 2010)

Firefly said:


> Also, I think that parents should educate themselves regarding the dangers of online communications (Facebook, Twitter etc).


Indeed, education is good and more is needed. But there is a danger of scapegoating of the bad ould Internet stuff too - it is a hugely valueable tool (just like the telephone, or the postal system) and it needs to be used responsibly.


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## Purple (1 Sep 2010)

I agree with everything Complainer has said on this thread.


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## fobs (1 Sep 2010)

Purple said:


> I agree with everything Complainer has said on this thread.


 
Is this a first


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## Purple (1 Sep 2010)

fobs said:


> Is this a first



No, it's the third time it's happened.


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## ali (5 Sep 2010)

When will people see the elephant in the discussion? Parents allowing their children out at twelve midnight didn't rape, beat and strangle a 12 year old girl. People allowing tv or pc access didn't either or organise a child abuse pay per view session on the internet. 

Basic fact: Men are the predators, women and children (and sometimes men) are the prey. The murder of a child is 'relatively' rare. The rape and beating is far more commonplace. Happens all day everyday; usually behind closed doors. 

Before everyone loses their reason: I am married to the best man in the world, and the mother of 3 sons. I have never been a rape victim. I know that they and most men are decent and good. BUT. The vast majority of violence against men, women and children is perpetrated by men. It is not unusual. It is an everyday occurance throughout the world and it will not improve until men decide it will. Just watch the marginal influence on the figures by the Rape Crisis Centre, child abuse organisations etc.

I was so heartened to hear the Men's Development Network to speak out on this issue on the radio during the week. It was so notable due to it's rarity. Women's groups speak out most commonly on the issue and therefore it's considered to be a women's issue as opposed to a human race and civilisation issue. 

Just to reiterate. I know that what happened to that child and so many other women and children is repugnant to most if not many men in society. However it is men who perpetrate this on a consistent, regular basis in every country in the world. Men have to take it on. From the basic : "Look at the tits on 'that'" , dehumanising way of looking at half the human race, to the nod and the wink that goes with "oh your man's off to Thailand" way of verbalising the routine acceptance of the way things are.

Women can and do facilitate, enable and occasionally engage in child abuse. It is almost never in isolation and almost always due to a financial or romantic or abusive relationship with a man and with the man/men the instigator. This is borne out by international statistics and represents less than 5% of known abuse. 

I absolutely love and adore my sons and my husband. I think they are worth better than absorption into a culture which tolerates this fundamental disrespect of half of the population of the world.

A.


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## pixiebean22 (5 Sep 2010)

_"Just watch the marginal influence on the figures by the Rape Crisis Centre, child abuse organisations etc."

_It has been widely proven that majority of men will not report a sexual crime being committed against them regardless of whether their attacker is a man or woman.  (Rape Crisis Centre ran very publicised ad campaign about this type of crime)


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## Purple (6 Sep 2010)

I have to agree with Ali. 
While in everyday little ways I find women far more sexist than men in the end, when it comes to violent and sexual crimes, it is almost always men who are the perpetrators. Parents who do not educate their children to respect others, who think it’s alright to foster an racist or misogynistic atmosphere in the home, who expose or allow their children to be exposed to violent or sexual images at a young age, are creating an environment in which children can develop into the sort of people who perpetrate these crimes.


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