# Bord Gais not accepting IBAN



## SDMXTWO (19 Jul 2018)

I was switching from EI to BG this morning but the form will not accept the N26 BANK GmbH IBAN. Should this really be an issue, do you have to open a new 'pillar' bank account to pay a utility bill? This is Europe.


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## RedOnion (19 Jul 2018)

Will they accept it at all, or can't accept it online?
There's a bit of an issue with the adoption of SEPA rules here. If you are paying from an Irish account, a digitally signed mandate is acceptable. However, legally, to pay from a non-irish account requires a paper mandate and a wet signature, so some companies set up their system validation to only accept Irish accounts.
Other countries adopted different rules.


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## SDMXTWO (19 Jul 2018)

Yes emailed them and they asked for the BIC+BAN to see what they could do. Will update as soon as I get an answer. Surely a European bank registered in Berlin should be ok. No way am I dealing with a 'pillar bank.


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## SDMXTWO (20 Jul 2018)

_WOW - Unfortunately we are unable to use any other bank account other than Irish.
_
Does anyone else find this offensive to say the least. We are supposed to be an open european society. I'm not surprised at the answer. What type of welcome is that to Irish people coming back home or anyone from abroad that never heard of BOI/AIB. They have to open a new bank account to have electricity has to be questioned.


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## RedOnion (21 Jul 2018)

sahd said:


> You will have to use the form


Absolutely correct. Legally they must have a paper mandate in order to raise a DD on an account domiciled outside the republic.


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## Itchy (21 Jul 2018)

RedOnion said:


> Absolutely correct. Legally they must have a paper mandate in order to raise a DD on an account domiciled outside the republic.



Legally? Plenty of other companies accepting DD from non Irish accounts.


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## RedOnion (21 Jul 2018)

Itchy said:


> Legally? Plenty of other companies accepting DD from non Irish accounts.


Without a paper form??


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## Jim2007 (22 Jul 2018)

Itchy said:


> Legally? Plenty of other companies accepting DD from non Irish accounts.



It simply means they are willing to take the risk, since you seem to know plenty of companies can you give us say a half a dozen examples?


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## Itchy (22 Jul 2018)

Jim2007 said:


> It simply means they are willing to take the risk, since you seem to know plenty of companies can you give us say a half a dozen examples?



Revenue for one. 

https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057540573?


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## RedOnion (22 Jul 2018)

Itchy said:


> Revenue for one.


Ah yes, but only within their secure area, where everything you do has effectively the same legal standing as if you signed it on paper.

For the others, they have no legal authority to debit the customers account, so customer could request a recall of every payment on that basis. The company is giving up all the protection of the SEPA scheme by doing so.


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## SDMXTWO (23 Jul 2018)

So this is the reply: 

Thanks for your recent email to Bord Gais Energy.
Unfortunately we are *unable to use any other bank account other than Irish*.
If anything else we can do for you, just reply to this email and we'll be happy to help.


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## SDMXTWO (23 Jul 2018)

“Under Sepa, for euro countries collecting euro, it will become mandatory from February 1st that they use the Sepa direct debit scheme to collect those. So, if you go to Spain next year and decide to buy an apartment,” he adds, “you will have the capability to give your Irish bank account details and they will be able to collect direct debits from your Irish bank account.”

*SEPA Consumer (Debtor) Rights*
Under the SEPA Direct Debit Core Scheme Rules and SEPA Regulation 260-2012 consumers can:


*Use a single account to pay a SEPA Direct Debit in any SEPA country*
Instruct their bank to refuse a SEPA Direct Debit
Prohibit the application of any SEPA Direct Debit to their bank accounts
Specify creditors who may collect SEPA Direct Debits from their bank accounts
Specify creditors who may not collect SEPA Direct Debits from their bank accounts
Limit a SEPA Direct Debit collection to a certain amount and/or period
Request a refund for any SEPA Direct Debit within eight weeks from the date on which the SEPA Direct Debit was debited from their account. Within the eight week period their bank must refund on a ‘no-questions asked’ basis
Request a refund for any unauthorised SEPA Direct Debit after 8 weeks and within 13 months from the date on which the SEPA Direct Debit was debited from their account.
More information on the SEPA Direct Debit Core Scheme is available from the


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## SDMXTWO (25 Jul 2018)

Bord Gais giving me the runaround saying it's all fixed now but it's not reading the IBAN number. Ditto Energia. You may think this is a small problem but i am on electric Ireland payzone meter where you pay as you go online with my N26 card. But I cannot get off the metre because Electric Ireland and all the other suppliers will not recognise the IBAN. I can save 233€ if I could change. Who is in charge of this as it is not fair that I cannot change provider due to stupidity.


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## RedOnion (25 Jul 2018)

I'll try one more time.

Have you filled in the paper form, or are you still trying online / phone?

A DD originator *cannot accept* a mandate electronically for an account domiciled outside the republic.

This is not a Bord Gais or an Energia issue.
These are the SEPA scheme rules as applied in Ireland.

You can use your N26 account, but valid authorisation requires your physical signature on a paper mandate.

BPFI publish a guide for creditors that goes through the rules in detail if you want more information.


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## SDMXTWO (26 Jul 2018)

I take your point on the paper bit, but there's no such thing as an Irish IBAN, *under SEPA rules*, all IBANs across Europe are streamlined, that's the whole point, what about all the other banks that are not Irish pillar banks? That is what the SEPA is supposed to do. N26 is just not listed on their sites yet as are a myriad of other 'foreign' banks. They are just too slow.


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## RedOnion (27 Jul 2018)

SDMXTWO said:


> there's no such thing as an Irish IBAN


What do you think the first 2 letters of your IBAN stand for?...



SDMXTWO said:


> under SEPA rules


Ok, since I know nothing about this, can you point out to me where, in either the Payment Services Directive, or in the EPC's rulebook it says a DD originator must allow a paperless mandate?

It doesn't say it. Quite the opposite - it talks about signed mandates.

It talks about being able to use electronic signatures, when they become available. Revenue can collect an e-signature. A utility company can't currently in Ireland.

The fact that Irish DD originators can collect any mandates at all electronically is a dispensation that the Irish Banks (members of BPFI) have signed up to, as an 'Additional Optional Service' over and above the SEPA rules. It was an extension of what was originally the DD+ scheme which predates SEPA. They all give guarantees to each other in relation to the creditors for which they are the sponsoring bank.
They don't have to be pillar banks - a number of credit unions now provide the service.

A lot of countries in the SEPA area require a paper mandate for every DD, regardless of location of bank account. So we're actually lucky to be able to do any of it online / over the phone.

None of your rights are being taken away, you just need to fill in a paper form so they have valid authorisation to debit your account in Germany (as per SEPA rules).


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## Bronte (27 Jul 2018)

Itchy said:


> Revenue for one.
> 
> https://www.boards.ie/b/thread/2057540573?


You said plenty. Revenue, special case, is one.  Give us 5 more for your plenty please.


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## Bronte (27 Jul 2018)

SDMXTWO said:


> I take your point on the paper bit, but there's no such thing as an Irish IBAN, *under SEPA rules*, all IBANs across Europe are streamlined, that's the whole point, what about all the other banks that are not Irish pillar banks? That is what the SEPA is supposed to do. N26 is just not listed on their sites yet as are a myriad of other 'foreign' banks. They are just too slow.



No such thing as an Irish IBAN. Interesting. 

You've asked your question, you've been told you have to do a paper mandate. You've been told there is no other way around this.  Why on earth do you not just do the paper mandate.


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## SDMXTWO (27 Jul 2018)

There is always another way. I contacted them by phone and they are updating their system. You do not get things changed by _doing what you are told_. It's supposed to be a modern service using IBAN numbers.


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## RedOnion (27 Jul 2018)

I need to dust off my CV and get a new job so...


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## SDMXTWO (30 Jul 2018)

*SEPA Consumer (Debtor) Rights*
Under the SEPA Direct Debit Core Scheme Rules and SEPA Regulation 260-2012 consumers can:


*Use a single account to pay a SEPA Direct Debit in any SEPA country*
Instruct their bank to refuse a SEPA Direct Debit
Prohibit the application of any SEPA Direct Debit to their bank accounts
Specify creditors who may collect SEPA Direct Debits from their bank accounts
Specify creditors who may not collect SEPA Direct Debits from their bank accounts
Limit a SEPA Direct Debit collection to a certain amount and/or period
Request a refund for any SEPA Direct Debit within eight weeks from the date on which the SEPA Direct Debit was debited from their account. Within the eight week period their bank must refund on a ‘no-questions asked’ basis
Request a refund for any unauthorised SEPA Direct Debit after 8 weeks and within 13 months from the date on which the SEPA Direct Debit was debited from their account.
More information on the SEPA Direct Debit Core Scheme is available from the


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## Leo (30 Jul 2018)

SDMXTWO said:


> Under the SEPA Direct Debit Core Scheme Rules and SEPA Regulation 260-2012 consumers can:



I was curious about the obligations of businesses participating, while it's inconvenient for you they don't handle N26 payments, I don't see anything in the rules at the link you posted that would even suggest they are obliged to.


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## SDMXTWO (31 Jul 2018)

It's annoying because some companies do (for example I transfer between Credit Union and N26, could take out a loan and have it paid into N26, Electric Ireland Payzone take your money from an N26 account so it's just laziness on some companies part as they accept many other 'foreign' IBAN's. Anyway I have it in hand and they are updating their IT. So they say.


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## jpd (31 Jul 2018)

SDMXTWO said:


> so it's just laziness on some companies part as they accept many other 'foreign' IBAN's.



I don't think "laziness" is the right word - they obviously just don't rate it high enough on their list of IT priorities. I imagine most organisations have many IT projects and have to prioritise them in some way. Presuamably if a significant proportion of their customers contact them to complain that they can't use a N26 account, then that would push the project higher up their list


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## SDMXTWO (31 Jul 2018)

All the answers were '_sorry we can only do Irish IBANS_' but in the choose your bank there were Italian, Spanish, German, Porteguese and Hungarian banks, so that excuse did'nt wash with me. When you talk to them they have the N26 choice visible, it's just not switched on. Yet.


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## RedOnion (1 Aug 2018)

To help my understanding, have you actually got a SEPA DD set up with any creditor on your N26 account?



SDMXTWO said:


> I transfer between Credit Union and N26


That sounds like a SEPA CT rather than a DD? Completely different scheme.



SDMXTWO said:


> could take out a loan and have it paid into N26,


Again, that sounds like a SEPA CT?



SDMXTWO said:


> Electric Ireland Payzone take your money from an N26 account


I'm assuming using a card payment? So again, not a SEPA DD.


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## RedOnion (1 Aug 2018)

Leo said:


> I was curious about the obligations of businesses participating, while it's inconvenient for you they don't handle N26 payments, I don't see anything in the rules at the link you posted that would even suggest they are obliged to.


Hi Leo, it's part of the scheme rules. 

However, there is a get-out in that a creditor can make it a condition of supplying a service that the debtor has an Irish bank account. A few companies pulled that early on, but the practice seems to have disappeared over time.

They must accept any SEPA reachable debtor account, using a signed mandate. There is no laziness about not accepting non-Irish accounts. It's created a lot of work to have a channel specific validation on IBANs to allow STP of mandates.

People often make the mistake of thinking that SEPA was about efficiency - it's not. It's about standardisation of charges and clearing times. It was a major step backwards in a number of countries where DD originators had to go back to using paper mandates.

Electric Ireland are a good example of how it's done properly under the derogation available for Irish originators, on their website:

"This Direct Debit form is for ROI bank accounts only. If you want to use a non Irish bank account please download and print the following mandate"


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## Leo (1 Aug 2018)

Thanks RedOnion, good info.


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## SDMXTWO (3 Aug 2018)

RedOnion said:


> To help my understanding, have you actually got a SEPA DD set up with any creditor on your N26 account?
> 
> That sounds like a SEPA CT rather than a DD? Completely different scheme.
> Again, that sounds like a SEPA CT?
> I'm assuming using a card payment? So again, not a SEPA DD.



Hi Red, no I have not had to over the past 18 months. Changing the service provider is my first encounter with N26 DD and to be honest I was not expecting the 'Irish only need apply'. I am awaiting another provider to remedy the situation. It's not rocket science.


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## SDMXTWO (5 Sep 2018)

Persistance = got it done.


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