# Means Testing-1st time but funds unknown to partner??



## adsam (12 Jun 2009)

First time to post but am panicking and need a bit of advice.
My partner was selfemployed (builder) but business has deteriorated completely. I worked for 23yrs then took vol redundancy 3 yrs ago to mind our 2 children. I cleared our mortgage with my payment but had more left over then ever told Partner. He is a mad spender and he would have spent it all. But now we need to go for some form of Social welfare assistance as our income is so bad. But of course this means we will be means tested and what do I do about the savings I never revealed to him. He has a bit of a temper and will explode that I have this put away and hid it.
So do I not tell Social and then they find it or do I risk the huge fallout at home and tell him. He knows we have some savings left as we never spent the Chidrens benefit when I was working. My savings are in B of I. 
(Mother always told me to hang on to a bit of my own money - now it seems to be coming back to bite. As I say we not married and relationship can be volatile from time to time.)


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## olddoll (12 Jun 2009)

I have a lot of sympathy for your predicament.  It appears to me you have been thrifty over the years and have managed to hold onto some savings for a "rainy day".  I would suggest that you contact Citizens Advice Bureau, talk to them about your situation and see what advice they can give you.  It appears to me that your main worry is your partner's reaction rather than hiding any savings from Social Welfare.


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## adsam (12 Jun 2009)

Thanks Olddoll - yes exactly. Am afraid to tell him and yet am afraid of the Social. Have never claimed for anything and assume they can now access your saving a/cs as the savings institutions have our RSI no.s now. Am in a bind


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## Diziet (12 Jun 2009)

Another thought: it was your money, not joint money. It was entirely up to you what to do with it. You paid the mortgage after all so you did not exactly spend it on shoes . You chose, very reasonably, to save it for a rainy day. It was never your partner's to spend. And you don't need to feel guilty saying that this is what you did.

If you are afraid of his temper then I am worried that you have bigger problems than the social.


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## Rambler (12 Jun 2009)

Looking beyond your domestic situation, if you choose not to tell the social welfare office about your savings, does anyone know what the implications are - how thorough are the social welfare checks, will they definitely find out about your savings, does a credit union look for a PPS No. if you open an account. Can you withdraw it now and trust a family member with it.


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## Cashstrapped (12 Jun 2009)

Adsam, not sure what social welfare payment you are applying for as a family but alot of the Social Welfare payments do not take into Account a certain amount of savings depending on what you are applying for, sometimes it disregards up to €20k so may be worth looking at Welfare.ie or Citizensadvice for guidelines.  Obviously depends on the amount you have but might take the pressure off if there is an high amount not taken into account for the Welfare payment you are applying for.


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## adsam (13 Jun 2009)

Dear All
Many thanks for your kind replies. It must seem a bit silly to complain of having savings at this time of crisis for so many, but I am all of a fluster. We have €20k shared savings (well I always insisted we never spend the Childrens allowance when we were both working, put foot down on that one). But I have a good lump sum over and above this. Both boys have Cr Union a/cs and a friend did suggest that I t/f the money into their a/cs. But what if the Social do a search and see that I have suddenly closed an a/c and shifted funds.  Then I will have to confess all to Partner plus be in trouble with the Social.  Re Partner - well there are 2 considerations which have kept me from revealing my savings 1) He is a mad spender and would have us on a fancy holiday and a car we can;t afford to run in the drive 2) He is not exactly full of 'get up and go', so if he thought we had a decent 'cushion' I would never get him out of the bed.  I was hoping for an improvement as he got older, but there you go.

Anyhow back to the plot - if I did t/f the money to the boys a/cs would the Social welfare track it down and would I find myself in hot water.
Oh God really don;t know what to do and we are due a visit from an officer any day now, so cannot even avoid going to their offices and pleading ignorance later that I did understand. Can you ask for a private meeting and I explain matters myself to officer and ask that it not revealed to Partner, dodgy I know as someone else could do up the calculations for whatever benefit we might be entitled to and quote the amount of savings we have.  Crikey I never thought I would ever be means tested. Worked in a good steady job since I was 18, but guess life takes you down different paths to what you expected.
Any advice/info would be gratefully received.


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## Swallows (13 Jun 2009)

Hi, reading your post I'm not sure to believe what you are telling us. On the one hand it's your money that is saved ( it's not in a joint account) so there is no reason to tell your partner it exists. On the other hand this money would tide you over for some time without claiming from the social?

In the meantime, if your partner is so bad that he wont get out of bed without a struggle maybe it's time you got rid of him? after all you are scared of him, yes? you have the money to do it, yes?

Or, are you hoping someone will tell you how to hide the savings?


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## adsam (13 Jun 2009)

Swallows -have typed this reply twice already -first time I wrote far 2 much personal info so deleted it, 2nd time seems to be lost in cyberspace so here goes no 3. 
To address your issues with my post:-
*Am I genuine? Yes, I am. 
*Should I get rid of my Partner? Well after 15yrs we are still not married,so I guess that says something. But until recession he went out to work every day, not as early as I would have liked, but there you go.
*Am I afraid of him? Well I am not afraid he will beat me to a pulp or anything like that. But I know he will not be clapping me on the back if he discovers I have been going on and on at him to try to find work when I had money all along.I have 2 young children and I don;t want them to feel the backlash from my deceit.(because I know it is deceit, you see)
* Am I being mean? well you'd want to walk a mile in my shoes and see. I don;t believe I am. I had a house when we met and put all the money from its sale into purchase of larger family home, which I subsequently paid off with my redundancy money. So I feel I have given and given.  Yes I did hold back money for me, in case the day came when I could not live with him any more. Am I the only woman in Ireland/The World who has money unknown to their man - I don;t think so.  
*Am I asking for advice on how to hide it? I suppose I am asking for a straight answer - 'close the a/c, put it under the mattress and you will get caught, so bite the bullet,face the consequences and tell him because there is no way around it.'  I suppose it is not what I want to hear but is that the fact of it??

If you still choose to think I am lying, then there really is nothing else I can say. But I wish you well and thank you for taking time to reply.  I understand that from the outside other peoples relationships can seem odd,  but there are a lot of us in relationships that are not exactly Mills and Boon!


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## Swallows (14 Jun 2009)

Hi Adsam, Well if you are genuine then I'm sorry to hear of your plight. It seems as if your partner is not that interested in the 'paperwork' that goes with running the home otherwise he would know there was savings in the different bank accounts? So, he leaves all that to you, right? Hence you were able to squirrel away a substantial amount of money which will now come to light?

There's no way round this I'm afraid. You either claim Social Welfare which on the face of it you may not be entitled to because of your savings.It seems to me there is the matter of trust here as well. You didn't trust your partner ( for whatever reason ) as he couldn't be relied on not to spend the money. But some of this money would have been his as well if he worked? So, a lot to think about here? 

It depends on what Social Welfare payment you intend claiming and also whose idea it is to claim. Who will be be the claimant? as you live together it will require  the information from both of you? Are you claiming Unemployment Assistance which is means tested or are you claiming Unemployment Benefit which isn't?

You cannot now start closing bank accounts or transferring money to the kids bank accounts because this can easily be traced and you will only end up in more trouble. So it seems to me that that your choices are very limited and that if you go ahead with the claim the money will come to light. Maybe one of you will find a job soon and that will solve the problem for now.

As you dont owe money on the mortgage you cannot spend the money on that? Do you owe money on anything else that you can pay off. Maybe you might now have to buy that new car? Let us know how you get on?


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## adsam (14 Jun 2009)

Hi Swallows - thanks for replying. Yep you have me sussed - I do all the paperwork, partner doesn;t have a clue. He is 9 yrs younger than me and I am better educated so has always left all to me. I was a good way ahead of him financially when we met - obviously I still am. I did an SSIA (when I was working), he didn;t (even though he was working). This is typical of our life.I spent it on a new kitchen, he insisted we get granite worktops even though he wasn;t contributing anything to it. You just learn to live with it and say 'Well if I want it, I have to pay for it'.  As I say he is not the worst just hopeless with money and if we have any he keeps nagging me until we spend it on clothes/cinema systems/dvds/computer stuff - bloke stuff I suppose.
Wait till he discovers we did have some money (other than the childrens benefit) all along!

Yes mortgage paid off, car 10yrs old (bought outright, I am such a control freak I don;t believe in buying unless you can pay for it, so no car loans or credit card bills).  So perhaps you are right. Time to buy the new car - more arguments - he's want a 2.7litre Landrover Discovery, I'll want a 1.4 Ford Focus!!  Compatability was never our strong point.

Was worrying about this last night after reading your post - and think you hit the nail on the head - am I looking for someone to tell me what to do - yes I prob am - but as you say my choices are limited. In fact my choices are non-existent. I will have to tell him...can't chance the Social Welfare finding it instead. No we have never claimed anything. I sign for credits since my redundancy, no money being received.  I had a good office job and tried to go back to work last Summer, but surprise suprise the jobs were drying up and maybe my age was going against me. I was shocked that since my last job application 20yrs ago, they no longer reply to job applications, or only a fraction of them do. Bit of a jolt to the system to discover I would not be walking back into a supervisory role with a good salary. Hence I am not working now.

So decision made, I will just tell the Social first and then if they send out a breakdown of our entitlements vis-a-vis savings I will just try to fluff it with him. Wish me luck!! Thanks again for taking time out to reply


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## Celtwytch (15 Jun 2009)

Adsam, you could try to arrange a private meeting with the Social Welfare Officer to discuss the situation.  If you make it clear that you want to be honest with them while still keeping the funds hidden from your partner, I reckon they'll understand.  I doubt very much that they can omit the details from the means test, though.  That being said, you mentioned that your partner doesn't have much dealings with the household finances, so he may simply accept that the saved-up child benefit was assessed as means.  I would advise against transferring the money to other accounts - this would be seen as an attempt to hide the funds from the means-testing officer, which is not what you are trying to do.

Best of luck, and I hope all goes well for you.


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## Welfarite (15 Jun 2009)

Adsam, the first thing you should do is roughly calculate what your means would be. Have a read of this and see if it helps. If you think you will qualify for some JA, then you should claim rather than your partner. That way, you can produce all the bank accounts, telling SW your predicament. If it's your claim, then he cannot access the information held on it without your permission (unless, of course, it's his own bank accounts/info!) and SW will respect your wishes (Data Protection Act prob covers you anyhow).


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## Diziet (15 Jun 2009)

adsam said:


> Hi Swallows - thanks for replying. Yep you have me sussed - I do all the paperwork, partner doesn;t have a clue. He is 9 yrs younger than me and I am better educated so has always left all to me. I was a good way ahead of him financially when we met - obviously I still am. I did an SSIA (when I was working), he didn;t (even though he was working). This is typical of our life.I spent it on a new kitchen, he insisted we get granite worktops even though he wasn;t contributing anything to it. You just learn to live with it and say 'Well if I want it, I have to pay for it'.  As I say he is not the worst just hopeless with money and if we have any he keeps nagging me until we spend it on clothes/cinema systems/dvds/computer stuff - bloke stuff I suppose.
> Wait till he discovers we did have some money (other than the childrens benefit) all along!
> 
> Yes mortgage paid off, car 10yrs old (bought outright, I am such a control freak I don;t believe in buying unless you can pay for it, so no car loans or credit card bills).  So perhaps you are right. Time to buy the new car - more arguments - he's want a 2.7litre Landrover Discovery, I'll want a 1.4 Ford Focus!!  Compatability was never our strong point.



I am afraid this is ringing serious alarm bells for me. Given that we are all anonymous, I will speak honestly.

You are acting like the mother of an overgrown child. He does not contribute equally, but still wants the toys. You have paid off the mortgage, you have bought the car and a new kitchen. And you are worried about his reaction to what you do with YOUR money?

Maybe it is time for both of you to do some growing up. You by choosing to behave like a grown up and say that this is your money and you will choose what to do with it. 2.7 litre car? Is this your choice? If not, why does he get a choice in what you do with your money?

He needs to understand that he is big boy now and he cannot use tantrums to get his way, and that with a family come responsibilities. Nagging you for buying him things is such a childish thing to do. Maybe, shock horror, he needs to start acting his age. He may be a few years younger than you, but he is your partner, not your child... Needless to say, this is not the norm for all blokes.

You probably don't want relationship advice so I won't contribute again to this thread so that I do not overstep the mark, but I hope you review this thread and what you have written and consider the options beyond what to do with the welfare application. I genuinely wish you well.


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## Mel (15 Jun 2009)

You sound almost apologetic for having been careful and sensible to save a nest-egg. You should be proud, not apologetic, that you are able to provide so well for your family. 
I'm afraid I agree with the post above.


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## Bronte (15 Jun 2009)

It's very sad indeed that you are not able to speak as an adult to your partner because of fear of his temper.  

Nevertheless I recommend you come clean and maybe if you decide to buy a new car you can cheer him up and he'll forget to get cross.  

Even if you manage to get through the social welfare system without him finding out about the money there is always the risk that it will come to light, a civil servant might say it to him by mistake etc.


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## JQ2002 (15 Jun 2009)

Might it be an idea to put some of the funds in a trust fund or something similar for the kids which cannot be touched by either parent? Declare this to Social Welfare, surely it cannot form part of your assessment as you do not have the benefit of the funds. 

Least then rather than spending the money on a new car or what ever short lived comfort, you will have the kids' college fees (as no doubt they are on the way) sorted.

Just a thought...


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## adsam (15 Jun 2009)

Dear All Thanks so much for all your help. I completely agree with all of you. Yes he is like a spoilt child, who I have endulged for far too long.  Agree he does not act like the adult most of the time and having strops and throwing insults is his response to not getting his own way. But yes as Diziet says that is relationship prob as opposed to my current -and unfortunately more urgent - difficulty.

 It is him making the claim but I assume my funds - even those held in just my own name - form part of the assessment. He has just delivered cc.s of all docs to Social Welfare so am hoping to get a chance - when he is out/busy - to ring their Office and ask for a private appointment. As you say, confess all to the officer and hope for the best.   Thanks again all for your kindness in taking time to reply to a stranger. Wishing you all the best


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## maxol (15 Jun 2009)

No no. You're not married??! He's making the claim? I am certain they cannot look into your accounts! Ring citizens info and enquire about yr privacy.

As for him..to be honest if the sexes were reversed you'd be called his sugar daddy


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## Bronte (16 Jun 2009)

maxol said:


> No no. You're not married??! He's making the claim? I am certain they cannot look into your accounts!


 
There are certain rules about cohabitating couples for social welfare purposes, in relation to social welfare they take all the pain but are not allowed to gain by the rules of the tax/revenue/legal system for married couples.


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## Welfarite (16 Jun 2009)

Bronte said:


> There are certain rules about cohabitating couples for social welfare purposes, in relation to social welfare they take all the pain but are not allowed to gain by the rules of the tax/revenue/legal system for married couples.


 

Exactly as Bronte says; Sw treat 'co-habitation' the same as 'marriage' under the SW Act, Revenue don't under their Act! TYhere is no chance that they won't look for your accounts, etc..


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## Zippy (16 Jun 2009)

Can The Dept of Social Welfare access your bank account details without your knowledge,or have you to inform them of the accounts you hold?


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## Welfarite (16 Jun 2009)

Zippy said:


> Can The Dept of Social Welfare access your bank account details without your knowledge,or have you to inform them of the accounts you hold?


You are obliged to disclose all bank accounts. You have to give them written permission to access those accounts, but if you refuse to do so, they will assume there is an ulterior motive for not allowing them access!


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## Zippy (16 Jun 2009)

Thanks for clarifying,one further question,should you not disclose details of all bank accounts,can they gain knowledge of them without your permission.


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## Bronte (16 Jun 2009)

Welfarite said:


> You are obliged to disclose all bank accounts. You have to give them written permission to access those accounts, but if you refuse to do so, they will assume there is an ulterior motive for not allowing them access!


 Not trying to go off topic, does this mean that the social welfare deals directly with the bank?  How far back are they allowed to look at your accounts?  It seems like a very big invasion of privacy.


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## Swallows (16 Jun 2009)

Hi, I'm sure that if the Social Welfare suspect fraud then they have the powers necessary to investigate in whatever manner is appropriate.


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## Welfarite (16 Jun 2009)

Bronte said:


> Not trying to go off topic, does this mean that the social welfare deals directly with the bank? How far back are they allowed to look at your accounts? It seems like a very big invasion of privacy.


 
Yes, they will write to any/all banks asking wqhat accounts you have there. They will only be interested in recent accounts probably as it will be current means that they want to assess (unless it's an investigation into past claims which they can do too). I don't see 'invasion of privacy' here; after all they are only doing what the customer has asked them, to do, assess therir means!


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## adsam (16 Jun 2009)

Well guys - bit the bullet - heart in mouth and rang the Social. Rang Citizens Advice first and she confirmed,yes of course I have to divulge my own funds.  Lady then did calculation and told me we were allowed to have €20k each before whatever allowance would be affected. She told me based on what I had plus the joint a/c that we would be stopped €54 a wk.  Delighted with this as he would hardly notice the €54 in the calculations and I could focus him on what we were getting.  So much relieved I rang the Social - spoke to very nice man (TG he did not think it madness that I had this a/c unknown to you know who!). Just need to give him cc statement and he will ask person doing the written calculation to not type in the amount of savings on the letter sent out to us.  Bad news though - according to Social we as a couple are only allowed €20k between us before they stop some of our allowance. Transpires we will be stopped €134 a wk - crumbs there prob won;t be much left! Will have to use the savings to survive!  He was adamant that NO not €20 per adult.
Ouch - well that's it guys - just to keep you informed. Thanks again for help


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## olddoll (16 Jun 2009)

Hi Adsam, many thanks for updating us on what transpired with SW. Essentially, it confirms what I always knew. If you are thrifty and are careful with your money, you will lose when it comes to being means tested by SW. On the otherhand, if you squander and spend your money wastefully you will get the max of what is available from SW.

I wish you the very best of luck and hopefully things will pick up for you soon.


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## sean.c (19 Jun 2009)

Definately call up and ask for a private meeting.  I personally don't see what the problem would be with transferring the money into accounts for your children, as long as it was locked away from you (trust or something similar).  It's called wealth management, not scamming.


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## Black Sheep (21 Jun 2009)

A couple with savings in a* joint* account are allowed 40,000 in savings before JA is reduced. 
As your savings are in your name only, perhaps this is the reason for the reduction in JA at 20,000.


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