# Eligibility UK & Irish state pensions



## Chewbacca (11 Sep 2021)

This is probably a familiar situation so any advice appreciated. I worked a couple of years in Ireland in early 20's before moving to UK and worked there about 20+ years. I returned to Ireland a couple of years ago and intention is to remain. I know there have been some changes in the last few years but not sure of the effect on my own situation. I know that in the past I could maintain my eligibility to a UK pension by paying voluntary National Insurance contributions but I'm not sure if I can still be eligible for both a UK and an Irish pension in which is is worth my while maintaining contributions to UK state pension if I am working in Ireland paying PRSI, any advice or good links appreciated.

I also believe that having worked here for a couple of years in early 20's puts me in a worse situation than say someone who never worked here and works for the same subsequent period say 15 years until retirement age, is this correct, is there a way of calculating pension eligibility based on number of total contributions?


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## time to plan (11 Sep 2021)

This would be a great key post.


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## jpd (11 Sep 2021)

You can contact the Social Security in Sligo and they will give you a recap of your contributions and entitlelments

And, yes, if you worked in your 20s and then later, it doesn't help :-(


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## NoRegretsCoyote (11 Sep 2021)

Chewbacca said:


> . I worked a couple of years in Ireland in early 20's before moving to UK and worked there about 20+ years.


Can you tell us:
-how many years working in Ireland
-how many years working in UK
-your age now

I will try to provide advice, but this information would be really helpful.


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## noproblem (11 Sep 2021)

I doubt you'll be given any Irish pension, but will probably be told that the GB govt will take your Irish contributions into account


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## Chewbacca (11 Sep 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Can you tell us:
> -how many years working in Ireland, circa 2.5 previously plus 1 so far now
> -how many years working in UK, approx 26
> -your age now, 51
> ...


I know I could continue UK contributions but whether it’s useful to do as not sure with current legislation whether I’d end up with a full UK pension and partial Irish pension based on maybe 10 -17 years contributions if continuing working here?


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## Shirazman (11 Sep 2021)

Chewbacca said:


> I know I could continue UK contributions but whether it’s useful to do as not sure with current legislation whether I’d end up with a full UK pension and partial Irish pension based on maybe 10 -17 years contributions if continuing working here?



As a general rule, it's almost always worth while making voluntary pension contributions.   But why not answer Coyote's straightforward questions so he'll be able to give you some informed advice?


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## Chewbacca (11 Sep 2021)

Shirazman said:


> As a general rule, it's almost always worth while making voluntary pension contributions.   But why not answer Coyote's straightforward questions so he'll be able to give you some informed advice?


I did in the quotes above in my reply?


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## Shirazman (11 Sep 2021)

Chewbacca said:


> I did in the quotes above in my reply?



Oops!   I had assumed that they were his estimates!   

There's loads of info on the Irish State Contribututory Pension on the Citizens Information website.    The info covers overseas PRSI contributions.

The key point to note is the eligibility requirement for you to have made 10 years' paid PRSI contributions before you reach pension age.

Here's the link:-   https://www.citizensinformation.ie/...etired_people/state_pension_contributory.html


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## Lisgoold (11 Sep 2021)

Was about to start a similar thread. I'll ask the question in this one. If that's not ok, just let me know, and I'll start a different one.

Is it possible, to get a full UK pension, AND a partial Irish one? 

I've been told yes and no by various people. I already have enough NI years to get full UK one. I have 17 ish years of PRSI contributions.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (11 Sep 2021)

Lisgoold said:


> it possible, to get a full UK pension, AND a partial Irish one?


Yes, in some circumstances you can get two full ones.




Chewbacca said:


> I know I could continue UK contributions but whether it’s useful to do as not sure with current legislation whether


Important thing is for you to get to ten years PRSI in Ireland which should be age 59. Then you get minimum pension of 40% of full rate at 66. If you work to 66 you'll get more or less pro rata more.

In meantime pay £3 a week UK Class 2 NI contributions until you get to 35 years total. This will get you a full UK pension. Don't delay on this as there are cut-off dates.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Sep 2021)

To add to this a little bit. I theory can combine your UK (NI) and Irish (PRSI) paid contributions to get one pension or the other. Imagine at retirement age you had 26 years UK NI contributions and 9 Irish PRSI contributions. You would get no state pension at all in Ireland as you wouldn't have the minimum 10 years. So you could use those 9 Irish PRSI contributions and add them to your 26 UK NI contributions to get you to 35 years which is what you need for a full UK state pension.

But for @Chewbacca this wouldn't make sense, especially with voluntary NI contributions. With 26 paid and 9 voluntary UK NI contributions he should have 35 years and get a full UK new state pension of £179.60 a week (€210 at current exchange rates). With 18.5 years Irish PRSI contributions by 66 he should get €161.80 as someone with between 15 and 19 years of paid PRSI contributions. As you can see, the OP will be much better off (€210+161.80=€371.80) having worked in both UK and Ireland than if he had worked in Ireland his whole career, as the full Irish  contributory state pension is only €248.30. (Just to add, both the pension rates and exchange rates will fluctuate a bit in future, but I cannot see this differentially disappearing.)

In general you are much better off moving to Ireland having worked in the UK, than the other way round. If you leave the UK voluntary Class 2 NI contributions are incredibly cheap at £3 a week and you can make voluntary contributions after having worked there only three years. If you move from Ireland to the UK you can make voluntary PRSI contributions but you need to have worked in Ireland at least ten years first, and the voluntary contributions are at 6.6% of your last year's gross earnings. 

Finally, you cannot make _voluntary _contributions in both the UK and Ireland at the same time that generate an eligibility for a state pension. But you can (like the OP) make paid contributions in one and voluntary in the other at the same time.

I might do a key post on this some time but it needs some more homework.


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## Lisgoold (12 Sep 2021)

@NoRegretsCoyote 
Thanks for the detailed response. A lot of useful information there. 

I managed to find a lot online , about where someone has worked in two or more countries, and how in a lot of cases , you can combine the contributions. I've never seen a definitive answer about one full, and one partial though. 

I have my record of contribution from Sligo. I've read about the new way of calculating . Using either the old or new method, in theory, I have enough to get something. At a face to face meeting in Cork social welfare they wouldn't confirm that though. I wasn't looking for a figure, just if it was likely to pay anything. 

I'm sure I've read on either gov, or citizens info site, that you were only eligible, if you were NOT eligible for a full pension elsewhere. I can't find that now though. 

If only allowed one, in theory, I'd probably be better off foregoing the UK one altogether, (full), and using some of those years to make the Irish one full. 

Though I'm not sure how that could work, as my SP age in UK is 66, and, I think , 67 in Ireland? Born 1959.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (12 Sep 2021)

Lisgoold said:


> Though I'm not sure how that could work, as my SP age in UK is 66, and, I think , 67 in Ireland? Born 1959.


How many years paid contributions have you in Ireland and UK respectively? When did you leave UK?


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## Shirazman (12 Sep 2021)

Lisgoold said:


> I have my record of contribution from Sligo. I've read about the new way of calculating . Using either the old or new method, in theory, I have enough to get something. At a face to face meeting in Cork social welfare they wouldn't confirm that though. I wasn't looking for a figure, just if it was likely to pay anything.



Ireland has a wide range of Social Welfare schemes and it's understandable that a SW Officer in a Cork public office wouldn't be fully up to speed about the criteria for pension eligibility.   If you want to establish the full facts about any SW scheme you really need to study the Operational Guidelines for that scheme, which can be found on the gov.ie website.   This is the document that is used by the Officials (Deciding Officers) who decide whether or not to award a pension.   (Alternatively, you could just ask Coyote!   )

_*





						Operational Guidelines: State Pension Contributory
					






					www.gov.ie
				



*_


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## Lisgoold (12 Sep 2021)

Ireland, about 17 years. UK currently 31 . Still working. The 35 year thing is not relevant, only for people starting after 2016. Everyone else is on a sort of hybrid system. I have enough contributed pre 2016 to get slightly over the new state pension figure. Worked in Ireland 1990 to 2007 , and again for one full year 2010.


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## Chewbacca (12 Sep 2021)

@NoRegretsCoyote That's great information, many thanks for such a detailed reply. I thought UK had become 37 years contributions but whether 35/37 that's what I'll be doing. I think it was restricted a few years back that you can only retrospectively pay back contributions of 3/5 years prior which is fine for me.

How many years contributions are required for a full Irish pension, if I go over the 10 year minimum and reach 15 years what is that a proportion of?

Think this would be a useful Key Post/Sticky as there must be so many people in this situation, thanks again


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## Conan (12 Sep 2021)

Chewbacca said:


> @NoRegretsCoyote That's great information, many thanks for such a detailed reply. I thought UK had become 37 years contributions but whether 35/37 that's what I'll be doing. I think it was restricted a few years back that you can only retrospectively pay back contributions of 3/5 years prior which is fine for me.
> 
> How many years contributions are required for a full Irish pension, if I go over the 10 year minimum and reach 15 years what is that a proportion of?
> 
> Think this would be a useful Key Post/Sticky as there must be so many people in this situation, thanks again


There are 2 calculation options , but I think the likely one for you will be 1/40th of a State Pension for each year of contributions.  So 15 years would get you 15/40ths .


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Sep 2021)

Chewbacca said:


> I thought UK had become 37 years contributions but whether 35/37 that's what I'll be doing.


For the new state pension it still looks like it's 35. You'll need to send off a form NI38 to HMRC. Response can be slow, about 5-6 weeks in my experience.



Chewbacca said:


> How many years contributions are required for a full Irish pension, if I go over the 10 year minimum and reach 15 years what is that a proportion of?



I think what @Conan says is right. But the precise rules are not very clear.




Lisgoold said:


> Ireland, about 17 years. UK currently 31 . Still working. The 35 year thing is not relevant, only for people starting after 2016. Everyone else is on a sort of hybrid system. I have enough contributed pre 2016 to get slightly over the new state pension figure. Worked in Ireland 1990 to 2007 , and again for one full year 2010.


If I read this correctly you are 62-ish and have 48 years either NI or PRSI contributions, so working continuously since the age of 14?

In any case I think you should just apply for Irish and UK pensions separately when you get to retirement age. The rules (both Irish and UK) are a bit more complex for someone of your age but if you have a *contributory *pension entitlement in Ireland you are entitled to it even if  you have one in the UK too, and vice versa. Remember your second pension is taxable too!


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## time to plan (13 Sep 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> For the new state pension it still looks like it's 35. You'll need to send off a form NI38 to HMRC. Response can be slow, about 5-6 weeks in my experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure what you mean by second pension is taxable. My understanding is that my UK pension will be taxed in UK and I'll get the normal UK personal allowance. Which makes the whole this a great deal. Happy to be corrected.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (13 Sep 2021)

time to plan said:


> Not sure what you mean by second pension is taxable.


Sorry I just mean that your second pension is taxable income wherever you are resident.

I've heard of pensioners failing to declare and being hit a big back tax bill.


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## time to plan (13 Sep 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Sorry I just mean that your second pension is taxable income wherever you are resident.
> 
> I've heard of pensioners failing to declare and being hit a big back tax bill.


I think the UK pension is taxable in UK, not where resident. Or is that domicile related?


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## jpd (13 Sep 2021)

Pensions paid to a resident in Ireland from the UK are taxed depending on the source of pension

If the pension was sourced from employment in the private sector, then is is taxed in Ireland
If the pension was sourced by employment in the public sector (eg UK civil service employment) then it is taxed in UK

So you need to look into who was employing you and was it considered as a part of Government service


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## time to plan (13 Sep 2021)

jpd said:


> Pensions paid to a resident in Ireland from the UK are taxed depending on the source of pension
> 
> If the pension was sourced from employment in the private sector, then is is taxed in Ireland
> If the pension was sourced by employment in the public sector (eg UK civil service employment) then it is taxed in UK
> ...


That's interesting. So different rules depending on citizenship as well. Doesn't clarify where the UK state pension is taxed for an Irish resident UK citizen.


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## Lisgoold (13 Sep 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> If I read this correctly you are 62-ish and have 48 years either NI or PRSI contributions, so working continuously since the age of 14?


Looks like I'm around a year out in both! 
UK govt site has me with 30 full years. 4 years to state pension age. And 16 years when I didn't pay anything. That's when I lived and worked in Ireland.

As I said, the 35 year rule is only applicable to people starting work after 2016. 

There are plenty of people who have reached full state pension or more, with less than 35 years. There are also people with more, sometimes a lot more , than 35 years, who have not reached the full amount. 

It depends whether or not you were contracted out , and also, how much you were earning per year, pre 2016. Basically, people on higher earnings, who were not contracted out, accrued more state pension per year worked, than someone who was on less pay, and contracted out , say in public sector.


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## ATC110 (26 Oct 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Finally, you cannot make _voluntary _contributions in both the UK and Ireland at the same time that generate an eligibility for a state pension. *But you can (like the OP) make paid contributions in one and voluntary in the other at the same time.*


This only applies if compulsorily insured in Ireland and making voluntary contributions in the UK not vice versa.






						PRSI - Pay Related Social Insurance
					






					www.gov.ie
				




_You can choose to pay Voluntary Contributions (if you are under the current pensionable age of 66 years and meet the other conditions) if you:_

_Are no longer covered by compulsory PRSI in Ireland_
_Are no longer covered by PRSI on a compulsory or voluntary basis in another EU country_


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## NoRegretsCoyote (26 Oct 2021)

ATC110 said:


> This only applies if compulsorily insured in Ireland and making voluntary contributions in the UK not vice versa.


Are you sure?

The link above only applies to other EU countries. The UK is not an EU country any more.


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## ATC110 (26 Oct 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> The link above only applies to other EU countries. The UK is not an EU country any more.


Yes, for many state functions (pension calculations, cross border directive et al) there's been no change


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## NoRegretsCoyote (26 Oct 2021)

ATC110 said:


> Yes, for many state functions (pension calculations, cross border directive et al) there's been no change


So why does the website not say "in another EU country _or the UK_"?

I'm not trying to catch you out. My reading is that (going forward) you can pay voluntary PRSI now that the UK has left the EU.

Is there firmer guidance on this somewhere?


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## Black Sheep (26 Oct 2021)

If you are working outside the EU and not subject to Irish or EU social insurance contributions you may also opt to pay voluntary contributions


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## ATC110 (5 Nov 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> So why does the website not say "in another EU country _or the UK_"?
> 
> I'm not trying to catch you out. My reading is that (going forward) you can pay voluntary PRSI now that the UK has left the EU.
> 
> Is there firmer guidance on this somewhere?



When it comes to contributions for pension purposes, the legislation is EU state-specific. It is not against EU law per se to contribute simultaneously for pension purposes.
For other insured purposes it is against EU law to be simultaneously insured.

(Link and screen grab below)



			A-Z on social security coordination (FAQs) - Employment, Social Affairs & Inclusion - European Commission


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## ATC110 (5 Nov 2021)

Black Sheep said:


> If you are working outside the EU and not subject to Irish or EU social insurance contributions you may also opt to pay voluntary contributions



Do you mean opt to pay voluntary contributions in Ireland? This is correct but from my research/enquiries the UK/Ireland arrangements for pension purposes have not changed therefore the stipulation as referenced in my previous post stands.

I'm open to correction on this so if you have different information please do post here.


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