# Garda reserve force



## racso (11 Apr 2006)

This has got a lot of media coverage lately particularly with the conference going on at the moment.

It is my belief that anybody who joins this reserve force is going to face a huge amout of discrimination from the "real gardai"

Would anybody be interested in actually joining this reserve force and if so why?

Would you have the same fears as above?

If you are a member of the gardai how do you feel about the above?

To be honest i am getting a real pain listening to garda spokespersons giving out all the time. Yesterday one said that a gun amnesty was not a good thing as it might not be successful!!!! 

Surely if even one gun is taken off the streets it will be a good thing?


----------



## Past30Now (11 Apr 2006)

The Garda representative bodies were off their heads to make a stand on this issue.  They would have been better off supporting the reserve, as opposed to getting the ministers back up over an issue that will do little or nothing to improve policing in the state.

Any recruits to the new reserve will be treated very well by the average guard.  In the main they are decent people and the average reserve recruit will be young guys and girls who ultimately hope to join the guards and will be quite enthusiastic. 

The effect of the reserve will be minimal.  They'll be handy to help police the city centres during the late evenings but other than that they will be useless.  There will be very few of them and they won't add 1% to the total mantime available to the state.  They won't be working in their own areas, they won't be getting paid, only the potential fulltimers will stick it out for any length of time.  Any busybodies who join with a view to showing the fulltime guards how to do the job will find themselves doing the worst parts of the job.

I'm not in An Garda Siochana myself but a number of friends and immediate family are members.

Past30


----------



## Purple (11 Apr 2006)

There has been a reserve force in England for over a hundred years. They are called special constables, a name dating back over 700 years. Many other European countries have a reserve police force, mostly paid. They are an essential part of the service. What makes us so different?


----------



## RainyDay (11 Apr 2006)

I can't see any good reason for taking unpaid, largely untrained volunteers into such a critical service. Why don't we fill the 400 open clerical posts to get the current Gardai out of the offices and onto the streets?


----------



## Purple (12 Apr 2006)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> I can't see any good reason for taking unpaid, largely untrained volunteers into such a critical service.


 They are to get 120 hours training (ref. Tim O'Malley TD http://www.progressivedemocrats.ie/press_room/1672/)  They will be with a full time Garda at all times and can be used for crowd control etc. where a limited skill set is required. It had also been suggested by the PD's that it would give the police greater local knowledge. I don't know if I agree that this is a major point in it's favour. I heard an English police officer on the radio saying that their reserve was an essential part of their force. 


			
				RainyDay said:
			
		

> Why don't we fill the 400 open clerical posts to get the current Gardai out of the offices and onto the streets?


An excellent suggestion. Why not do both?


----------



## shnaek (12 Apr 2006)

Will the reserves have access to Garda computers and all their info on citizens? 
I can't make up my mind on this reserve force. I think if they are well regulated and screened then it may be a good idea. But we have a great talent at doing things half-assed in this country. I know a few heads from home who'd love to get on the reserves - real choice heads these. Just the type of people you want to give authority to. I also remember my time in Cape Cod in the US where the reserves were the biggest a**holes I have met in my life. We had to step off the path when an officer is passing, and several of my Irish friends there spent nights in the slammer for giving some lip, such as 'You can't come in here without a warrant.' They used to break up gatherings in houses of 5 or more people. 
If this reserve force is brought in it will have to be well regulated.


----------



## Purple (12 Apr 2006)

I have to admit that since the "Blue Flu" I am of the opinion that if the GRA oppose something then it must be good. This has nothing to do with concerns about standards of policing and everything to do with concerns about overtime. I have two friends who are Gardai. One is the stereotypical stroke pulling type the other is utterly professional. The latter is in favour of the reserve the former is against it. My opinion is lead by this.


----------



## bazermc (12 Apr 2006)

I suspect the garda are afraid that if there is a reserve force they will have to go out and solve real crimes something they seem incapable of doing so now


----------



## Purple (12 Apr 2006)

bazermc said:
			
		

> I suspect the garda are afraid that if there is a reserve force they will have to go out and solve real crimes something they seem incapable of doing so now


 Very cynical. Probably true though..


----------



## michaelm (12 Apr 2006)

IMHO the government would better to properly resource the Gardai, providing better equipment & technology, and increasing the force to a realistic size in relation to population and geographic area of the country (I'm thinking it should be at least 40000).  The Gardai should be trained to the highest standards and be expected to be entirely professional, there should, of course, be a fully independent body to investigate complaints against Gardai and an internal Gardai investigation unit to root out corrupt Gardai.

From my point of view the Gardai are stretched, hugely under resourced, and morale must be approaching zero, crime is rife, the courts can't keep up.  We get more and more laws but the underlying system to prevent & detect crime and to enforce & interpret these laws is creaking under the pressure.  All of this is entirely the fault of the FF/PD government.


----------



## Capaill (12 Apr 2006)

michaelm said:
			
		

> .  All of this is entirely the fault of the FF/PD government.



And nothing to do with those who break the laws, be that speeding or commiting more serious crime? 

C


----------



## jem (12 Apr 2006)

i have to say that subject to strengent checking out of the people applying I am all in favour of it. it should have the effect of having more police on the beat and hopefully making it harder for the criminals.


----------



## michaelm (12 Apr 2006)

Capaill said:
			
		

> And nothing to do with those who break the laws, be that speeding or commiting more serious crime?


Correct. Nothing to do with criminals. All to do with incompetent government. We will always have those willing to commit crime but hopefully we wont always have an incompetent government. We need to manage would-be criminals expectations and put in place properly resourced and coherent policing, legal, and penal systems.


----------



## bazermc (12 Apr 2006)

anybody know what the salary would be for a garda reserve?


----------



## michaelm (12 Apr 2006)

bazermc said:
			
		

> anybody know what the salary would be for a garda reserve?


AFAIK it's unpaid, so €0.00.


----------



## bazermc (12 Apr 2006)

This post will be deleted if not edited immediately how are they going to get people to that job for nothing.....are they mad?


----------



## Purple (12 Apr 2006)

most European countries that have a reserve pay them. The UK does not.


----------



## icantbelieve (12 Apr 2006)

The reserve can't be anything other than a good thing, there are a hundred and one things they could do that don't require training that would free up our well trained gardai to do the jobs they joined to do.
How much training do you need to
a) answer a phone and take details and pass it on to proper gardai
b) be seen on the streets often just having a visible presence is enough to stamp out the low level anti social crimes that rarely end up with the offender in court but make our streets unsafe
c) usher people to and fro at major sporting or music events
d) operate a speed camera/breathaliser, in these cases there are generally two gardai involved, who says both have to have years of training behind them
e) run after a fleeing criminal and hold them until the senior fully trained garda arrives to administer rights etc, a lot of the time gardai can't (or shouldn't) pursue criminals because they are on their own
f) handle basic paperwork duties such as signing driving licence forms/pictures
These are just a few things I think they could do and I don't have any idea of the full job spec of a garda so there are probably many many others. As has already been said, make sure the right people get to join the reserve and if they abuse their position then don't use them, you can volunteer but it doesn't mean you have to be picked. Of course properly funding and equiping the force we have is a priority but as has been said, why not do both. It'd all be a positive circle, hopefully, more gardai able to tackle serious crime, the perception that if you commit a crime you'll be caught resulting in less crime resulting in more gardai available for tackling the problem areas...


----------



## nelly (12 Apr 2006)

call me cynical but would it be anything to do with the loss of overtime for regular gardai now that they might get a few more reservist's and a few less gardai to secure the Patricks day parade or various matches and concerts. a loss of a  handy earner for them methinks.


----------



## RainyDay (12 Apr 2006)

Having been heavily involved with a uniformed voluntary organisation for many years, I would have strong suspicions about the motives of a substantial portion of the type of person who would volunteer for the reserve. There are those people for whom a little bit of power would undoubtedly go to their head, and I would have little trust in their ability to apply common sense to many situations. I really don't want to have these guys floating round with full Garda powers and a little bit of training. 

Almost all of the roles that have been suggested for the Reserve in the thread could be carried out by clerical staff. I see little value in putting Reserves on the streets in the company of full-time Gardai. It is more likely to be a hindrence than a help. The full-timer now has to worry about baby-sitting the Reserve member as well as doing his job. When things get tough, the full-timer knows he's not going to get the same level of support from a Reserve member as he would from a full-timer. 

BTW, on checking Section 15 of the Garda Siochana Act 2005 I see that the level of training will be based on a recommendation from the Commissioner, so I don't think it has been specified as yet. The only good news is that the degree of powers to be exercised by the Reserve will be specified by the Commissioner independently of the Minister, so if the Commissioner has any sense, he will restrict them to making tea and washing the cars.

Where will it stop? Volunteer nurses? Volunteer driving inspectors to clear the backlog?


----------



## ashambles (12 Apr 2006)

And why don't your suspicions extend to the type of person who'd apply for the gardai proper? The same vetting will apply to both, in theory you should get similar people perhaps with a different age profile.

The aim of the reserve force is a visible presence - civilian staff can't do that. Maybe instead of running 2 checkpoints with 6 gardai you run 3 with a couple reserves. Might save a couple lives.

Trainee guards are already used for visible presence. When you hear the GRA talking you'd swear 2 years is an enormous amount of training - churning out people who're crime fighting geniuses, martial art experts, superb legal brains, expert pursuit drivers - in reality the training produces none of this - just the groundwork that experience eventually fills in.

The real reason the GRA are opposed to the reserves is because it will expose to the public any inefficencies, bad work practices, slacking off etc. that can now be kept in house. There's little to stop a reservist deciding to publicize problems or going to the minister - he won't have to worry about his volunteer career or promotions, maybe the activities exposed by the Morris tribunal wouldn't have been so easy with a couple reservists around in the station.

For some gardai having volunteers around the place will be like having public inspectors keeping an eye on them, that's why the GRA are calling it Thatcherite and akin to privatization.

Any garda station I've seen could easily benefit from having people who've worked in the private sector passing on some experience, it's all logbooks, notebooks that wouldn't have been out of place in the 19th century let alone the 20th. CSI-Dublin it ain't, despite "pulse"...


----------



## RainyDay (12 Apr 2006)

The Gardai in the stations aren't responsible for the system with all the logbooks and notebooks. To assume that 'a few people with private sector experience' could rectify the system is facile in the extreme. Without understanding the complex legal requirements involved, the few private sector geniuses would undermine years of legal cases.

I don't buy the 'whistleblower' arguement. There are plenty of decent guards with strong representative organisations in place capable of bringing issues to the surface. We can't rely on unpaid volunteers for whistleblowing. If the current systems don't work, we need to fix them professionly, not with amateurs.


----------



## Purple (13 Apr 2006)

> The Gardai in the stations aren't responsible for the system with all the logbooks and notebooks.


No, but they have opposed any attempts at modernisation.


> Without understanding the complex legal requirements involved, the few private sector geniuses would undermine years of legal cases.


 agreed but the same work could be done in a different way. Do you accept that the big ledger on the front desk cannot be the best way of doing things?


> If the current systems don't work, we need to fix them professionly, not with amateurs.


 Iagree, but that still doesn't mean that a reserve is a bad thing.


----------



## icantbelieve (13 Apr 2006)

It sounds like rainyday is with the usual union spokesperson line on this and to be fair he has stated his political viewpoint often enough for us to be aware of it. 
But I think the rest of the country is sick to death with civil service unions fleecing this country on behalf of their members while refusing to give anything in return. 
This isn't an untried and unsuccessful proposition, other countries successfully implement it and there is no way that we are unique in the world where for some reason all the wrong type of people will want to join an unpaid reserve force. Where we are unique is that we are a very well of small country where small effective solutions have large beneficial knock ons. Witness the success of the implementation of the new penalty points, this is soley down to manpower being directed at it in the aftermath of the announcement so as to make the minister look good but imagine if there were more gardai (fully trained or reserve) allocated full time.
The reserve force is a small minimal expenditure solution with the potential for big improvements, that can be easily disbanded if proved unsuccessful. Unless of course the same garda unions who opposed them suddenly like having more members and then start kicking up when it comes to disbanding them but that'd never happen.


----------



## Purple (19 Apr 2006)

icantbelieve said:
			
		

> It sounds like rainyday is with the usual union spokesperson line on this


 He can defend himself but I don't think Rainyday is opposed the reserve for this reason.


----------



## Purple (21 Apr 2006)

Yesterday the Association of Garda Superintendents said that it's members approved of the idea of a reserve. Is it purely coincidental that they don't get overtime and those opposing the reserve do?


----------



## sherib (21 Apr 2006)

Only half listened to a news item on Radio/TV yesterday. It referred to the fact that promotion of Superintendents are political appointments unlike those further down. This would suggest a self interested motive for going with the Government. Open to correction.


----------



## Purple (21 Apr 2006)

sherib said:
			
		

> Only half listened to a news item on Radio/TV yesterday. It referred to the fact that promotion of Superintendents are political appointments unlike those further down. This would suggest a self interested motive for going with the Government. Open to correction.


 Good point...


----------



## Grumpy (2 May 2006)

Anyone hear the "Joe Jacobs Moment" on RTE1 over the week-end.
A chief Supt. in the Gardai explained that there is no Gangland....just drug dealers falling out...and engaging in gun battles...and killing one another...eh..but no Gangland.
Maybe we should sack the lot and appoint as Garda Reserva the first 12,000 that turn up at, say Hatch 5, in Werburgh St. on a Monday morning.
We can always fiddle the crime figures if it doesn`t work and appoint a friendly polling company to prove how 99% of us think they`re doing a great job....maybe the same one the RUC/PSNI use.


----------



## Purple (10 May 2006)

I see the GRA are backing down from their threat to target government parties at the next general election. See[broken link removed] for details.I hope that this is the case as the politicisation of the police is not a good thing.


----------



## dodo (13 May 2006)

The main reason the Garda are up in arms is before it will effect their overtime who are they trying to kid, if my Boss came up with new plans for our company I would either have to like it or leave, I could not say I wont talk to this person have no contact and so on , I would be out on me ear and righty so,Mc Dowell is their Boss so they just have to grow up and do what they are told


----------



## RainyDay (14 May 2006)

dodo said:
			
		

> if my Boss came up with new plans for our company I would either have to like it or leave, I could not say I wont talk to this person have no contact and so on , I would be out on me ear and righty so,


Not true. If your boss expected you to do something that put your life or health at risk, you would be legally obliged to refuse his instruction.


----------



## Purple (14 May 2006)

RainyDay said:
			
		

> Not true. If your boss expected you to do something that put your life or health at risk, you would be legally obliged to refuse his instruction.


Who said anything about putting life or health at risk?!


----------



## RainyDay (14 May 2006)

Sending a guard out into a dangerous situation with a rookie who has had minimal training where the guard has no support and is expected to protect the rookie in addition to dealing with the dangerous situation may well be putting his life/health at risk.


----------



## ashambles (14 May 2006)

A lot of garda activity could be said to be putting his or her life/health at risk to some extent, this is one reason why for the most part they've huge public respect. 

Should the gardai refuse to deal with armed robberies due to health and safety, refuse to deal with gangland criminals, not try to stop joyriders. Should the gardai who were injured while protecting the public in that recent bus incident be disciplined for not obeying health and safety guidelines?

Gardai already go out on the beat with rookies/trainee gardai. Gardai have skill and judgement and know where and when the use of trainee gardai is reasonable. 

The GRA are struggling to give even one good reason not to as least try the scheme out in some minimal form for a couple years. This health and safety reason is their latest dead end argument, maybe they should just go back to their brief and idiotic threat of waiting in the long grass - at least that had a bit of menace about it.


----------



## Murt10 (15 May 2006)

It's not that long ago that the gardai were only given 6 months training in Templemore, before  being unleashed  on the public, where they were  expected to be experts in all matters of criminal law. Much of the time in Templemore was spent square basing and physical exercise. The Gardai when they came out had to deal with all aspects of the criminal law.

Of course this  whole thing is about money. Major events could easily be policed by the new reserve working alonside and assisting the regular Gardai.  This would eat into the potential overtime earnings of the rank and file Gardai, so they are hardly likely to welcome it. 

Likewise, I cannot see how stopping cars for Tax and Insurance requires a huge amount of  legal knowledge. The reservists would only be expected to deal with a very small part of the law.


Murt


----------



## RainyDay (15 May 2006)

ashambles said:
			
		

> Gardai already go out on the beat with rookies/trainee gardai. Gardai have skill and judgement and know where and when the use of trainee gardai is reasonable.


There is no sensible comparison between a trainee who has undergone 7-8 months of full-time training before being unleashed on the street with an unpaid volunteer who has had a few hours of training.


			
				Murt10 said:
			
		

> Likewise, I cannot see how stopping cars for Tax and Insurance requires a huge amount of  legal knowledge. The reservists would only be expected to deal with a very small part of the law.



You don't get to pick & choose what Gardai deal with what issues. They deal with whatever they encounter. The armed robber isn't going to wait for a 'real' guard to arrive from the station. The fatal car crash isn't going happen only when full-timers are around.


----------



## macnas (15 May 2006)

Can you ring up your local Garda Station to enquire about application forms for joining the Garda Reserve?                                 lol!


----------

