# Penalty Points Appeal



## bobk (12 Feb 2007)

Have any AAMers ever tried to appeal penalty points issued for driving offences?

I ask because I got stopped for going through an amber light, 
but got a fine and 2 point deduction in the post today for 'breaking a red light'

The Guard was fully aware I went through an orange light, as we even had a  chat about it.

 The only car to go through the red light was them and without flashing  their lights and sirens.

 I want to appeal as the charge is incorrect.

 Any point/advice??

 Thanks in advance


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## extopia (12 Feb 2007)

You haven't said, but I assume you know that it's only acceptable to go through an amber light if it's too late to come to a stop safely? You didn't by any chance accelerate through the amber light?

Did the guard not chat to you about this - and if so did he agree with you that you were correct to break the amber light? It's possibly technically correct that you broke a red light because the light on the far side of the intersection (if it was an intersection) would have been red before you reached it, for example.


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## Seagull (13 Feb 2007)

Was their car immediately behind you? Would you have been able to safely stop without them going into the back of your car? I've been left in a position of having to go through an amber light because the car behind me was accelerating to try and get through the light, regardless of what I was planning to do.


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## Trent (13 Feb 2007)

I got 2 penalty points for going through an amber light a few months back, but the letter stated that it was for breaking an amber light. Whether it was safe to stop is really your judgement and not theirs as it's you who has control over the car. Unless, that is, you accelerated through the light. 

Regardless, if you agreed on amber and the letter stated red, then techically the penalty point notice is incorrect and should be deemed null and void. You are doing yourself an injustice if you don't appeal it. 

Traffic cops often place themselves strategically near traffic lights and catch a lot of people out this way. Personally I think the roads would be safer if they were to patrol the roads and stamp out some of the aggressive and dangerous driving that I see every day by people who most likely have no points.


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## Bob_tg (13 Feb 2007)

One question... do you think you could have stopped at the amber safely??  It's one thing to challenge the garda on the technicality, but in the grand scheme of things it's a minor difference, and the offence under law is exactly the same, regardless of what the ticket has said.  However, you might feel that it wasn't safe to stop, and the principle is what matters...

Principles aside, appealing these things can be more hassle than they're worth.  You have to go meet with a solicitor, have your pleasant day in court, and get worked up about the whole thing.  If you're not one who is in the habit of collecting points too often, then for the sake of reduced stress, it might be letting this one slide.


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## bobk (13 Feb 2007)

I overtook a car that was stopped at a green light.
It was orange by the time i went through it.

The gardai were not directly behind me, but I can only imagine that they saw the other car stopped and me going through an orange light.

When i was talking to the guard, he said i went through the lights, 
I told him it was not red, it was orange, 
he replied that don't you know that going through a orange light can be an offense.

He took my name and address and went off.


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## Trent (13 Feb 2007)

Yet more evidence that there is a need for increased regulation of the Gardai. The car that was stopped at the green light should be the one getting penalty points for dangerous driving (or lack of driving!). It's incredible that the action taken can be determined by the mood of a member of the Garda Siochana at a particular point in time.


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## Guest120 (13 Feb 2007)

Trent said:


> The car that was stopped at the green light should be the one getting penalty points for dangerous driving (or lack of driving!).



Ignorance.

You don't know the circumstance of the car, and why it was stopped.


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## Trent (13 Feb 2007)

Rubbish.

I expect it would have had hazard lights on if it was stopped for a specific reason. The Gardai would have noticed same and then understood why bobk was forced to overtake it.


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## bobk (14 Feb 2007)

Anyway, without being put on trial by my fellow AAMers, the question I am asking is has anyone ever successfully appealed getting their fine and points rap?

Thanks


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## ClubMan (14 Feb 2007)

I seem to recall somebody else talking about appealing. Perhaps there's something useful  or  (lot of overlap between the two)?


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## Taximan (14 Feb 2007)

I know two people who appealed, both ended up with four points. interestingly one of the people knew this would happen  but used the appeals process to avoid a ban as they were on 10 but by the time the court day happened he had lost six of this ten. 

By the way be aware of left turn onto barrow street from ringsend there is no filter and the green arrow is not for turning left (obiviously). Picked up two for that, Garda was v.sympathetic but still got 2. Happened on December 12th but three years only started on the 10th of FEB.


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## bond-007 (14 Feb 2007)

The problem with appealing is you will get no where in the district courts. You will have to appeal the conviction to the circuit courts. They in my experience seem to be more reasonable in reviewing cases. Alot of the time the state won't even bother contesting an appeal. You just need to be brave and tough it out for the long haul.


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## extopia (14 Feb 2007)

bobk said:


> I overtook a car that was stopped at a green light.
> It was orange by the time i went through it.




But regardless of why the other car was stopped at a green light, it certainly sounds from your description that you accelerated through an amber and that the Garda was probably correct to ticket you. 

(By the way there are legitimate reasons for being stopped at a green light. Perhaps the intersection was not clear at the other side, for example.)


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## ClubMan (14 Feb 2007)

I presume that there are legal costs involved in appealing? If so you might want to consider if it would be worth paying these based on the likelyhood of your appeal failing.


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## mmclo (14 Feb 2007)

I did overturn an offence involving 4 points in the circuit court, no need for a solicitor in my view in district and circuit ct. but do read up, plenty of books in library, cases and legislation on the web i.e. www.bailii.org  Although I usually get grief here for saying that. My experiences are written up somewhere in another post. 

Key Point

You cannot appeal points, only the convicition. 2 points is a reduction, 4 is the standard which automatically follows a conviction. The system is very uncertain, more to do with judges personality than the law in the district ct.

BTW
The Department of Transport has no appeals mechanism on points which I think is constitutionally suspect...if you fancy a trip all the way to the supreme ct.


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## mmclo (14 Feb 2007)

on rereading your post your not really appealing but decisdng whether to go to ct. This should be set out in whatever documents you got with the fine etc. Same issues apply though


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