# "Public Sector Debate": Any chance of a truce?



## damson (26 Nov 2009)

There's an interesting thread on politics.ie:
[broken link removed]

In pretty much every sphere I move in at present, and especially noticeable on internet discussion boards, the public-private sector battle is evident. It's bitter, divisive, and ultimately unproductive - except for the government, who are running a classic 'divide and conquer' programme.

At the risk of sounding like a naive, "can't we all just get along" type, is there any possibility that something of the attitude displayed in the link above could be harnessed here on AAM?

From the politics.ie thread:


> *Posted by lifeisagame on politics.ie* _[Original post, edited]_
> As a Member that has ceaselessly attacked the Public Sector I am also a pragmatic Businessman.
> Is it time to stop the war and join forces?
> By this I mean a joint attack on the forces that are attacking both our Sectors.
> ...





> *Posted by Newsy on politics.ie*
> I welcome your post, lifeisagame.
> 
> There has been a very well orchestrated campaign on many things in the past months. The Banks/deveropers/politicians threesome being denied, NAMA not being a bailout and then the private/public war that was well managed and fueled by sections of the media.
> ...





> *Posted by Mitsui2 on politics.ie*
> I am not nor have I ever been a public sector worker, but some of the anti-ps vituperation that's been on here recently has been completely surreal.
> 
> Some of it may stem from actual deeply-held belief (although if so I think the believers need some kind of counselling) but an awful lot of it - it has seemed to me - is a kind of lashing out in the face of the enormous difficulties we all face and the fact that the government seems at best resigned to effing us all over, at worst quite determined to do so.
> ...


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## Caveat (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

I'm on. Sick of it. Again.

In fact am currently considering simply staying out of _The Depths_ purely because of this public/private thing.


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## galleyslave (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

so, what do we argue about next then?


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## VOR (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Agreed. A self imposed truce is the way to go. We must have some common ground.


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## callybags (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

If the public service agree to it then I'm not


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## damson (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



galleyslave said:


> so, what do we argue about next then?


The real meaning of ripoff. 
And Cork v. Dublin for capital city.
You know - important things.


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## galleyslave (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

ah right... like should toilet paper dangle on the inside or outside...


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## damson (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



galleyslave said:


> ah right... like should toilet paper dangle on the inside or outside...


Now that could be very divisive...


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## VOR (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

[broken link removed]


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## ney001 (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Caveat said:


> I'm on. Sick of it. Again.
> 
> In fact am currently considering simply staying out of _The Depths_ purely because of this public/private thing.



+1 - Especially because no new arguments are being produced - same old stuff all the time.


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## liaconn (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Sounds like a plan! We've all been at it hammer and tongs for nearly a year and, as Ney says, it's just the same old arguments and counter arguments. I think, at this stage, anybody who was prepared to budge has done so. There's nothing more to be achieved by continuing the rows.


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## Latrade (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

The saddest thing to me is some of the issues are worth debating, but the points get lost in unsubstantiated "facts" and sometimes defending for the sake of defending. Among the many threads there have been I have learned stuff I didn't know and had to change my own views on certain things. Doesn't that make some of the frustration worthwhile?

It is a pity that they do decend into a predictable slump, but in some cases there are very good points raised on either side of the "debate", important things too. 

I think it more important that when a point is valid it is accepted on either side. But there seems to be a culture of "this poster's not for turning" and the threads suffer as a result.

Given the scale of the problems in the state and given the pain we're all going to have to take, I don't see how we can avoid these current issues. Yes it's unfortunate that at this moment the focus is on public spending. but that's a big thing that's needs sorting it's not something we can ignore because if it isn't sorted don't make too many plans for beyond April. 

As I say, arguments and rows aside, I've actually learned a lot from these threads.


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## Caveat (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

I agree 100% Latrade


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## Shawady (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Latrade said:


> The saddest thing to me is some of the issues are worth debating, but the points get lost in unsubstantiated "facts" and sometimes defending for the sake of defending.


 
+1.
The PS wage bill will have to reduced and is worth discussing but it just ends up getting bogged down non-PS workers making cheap shots or PS workers getting over-defensive.
I was going to start a thread for public servant to make suggestions as to savings could be made in the public sector but I could see it would end up going down the same road as previous threads.


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## Mpsox (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

I'm starting to get bored with AAM because so many of it's posts go down the same route, you almost know at this stage who will be posting and who will be saying what once you read the first post.

What really disappoints me is the failure of people on both sides of the arguement to accept that the others may actually have valid points. The reality is that the public sector is far from perfect, despite what some posters on here would have you believe, but it's also far from being the money sucking innefficient bloated monstrosity that other posters would have you believe. Rational reasoned arguement goes out the window.

I think Shawady post about public sector workers making suggestions for cost savings is an excellent one, providing they are not couched in vague management speak around "efficiencies" and "synergies". These are the people at the coal face, why not get them to make some reasoned suggestions, preferable with numbers attached and ask private sector worker posters not to comment on them for a week?


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## VOR (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Mpsox said:


> I think Shawady post about public sector workers making suggestions for cost savings is an excellent one, providing they are not couched in vague management speak around "efficiencies" and "synergies". These are the people at the coal face, why not get them to make some reasoned suggestions, preferable with numbers attached and ask private sector worker posters not to comment on them for a week?


 
I would be delighted to see such posts. And would be happy not to comment at all. I would be very interested in seeing the outcome.


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## cork (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

The public sector should share IT, HR, Finance + Training.


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## galleyslave (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



cork said:


> The public sector should share IT, HR, Finance + Training.


sounds good in theory, but with with their track record (and the track records of the uk public sector also) on large projects like this it would be a disaster. 

Nice idea though


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## Latrade (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



galleyslave said:


> sounds good in theory, but with with their track record (and the track records of the uk public sector also) on large projects like this it would be a disaster.
> 
> Nice idea though


 
Sorry*, but talk about giving up before we even try. It's hardly fair to say the PS should be reformed and then say that they'll mess up the reform anyway. Liaconn is right: damned if they do, damned if they don't.

And just what has the UK's track record got to do with here? Why not say Germany has managed its PS reform well, that's just as valid.

*sorry appreciate aim of thread didn't mean to bite, but then went ahead regardless.


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## galleyslave (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Latrade - I mean that large scale national projects have a bad track record. Smaller ones, fair enough


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## liaconn (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

There should be proper staff mobility policies and regular reviews (at least annually) of staffing needs in different areas. These should be done objectively and, if not ruthlessly, very very firmly.


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## galleyslave (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

the key thing though is  being able to let permanent staff go if there's no job for them... it seems to me that can't be done right now. Anyhow, aside from that, and I don't know if its due to the nature of the work, but the amount of literal paperwork being done is astronomical. greater computerisation would surely be a good thing


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## Caveat (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



liaconn said:


> proper staff mobility policies


 
What do you mean by this Liaconn - are you talking about adaptability/flexibility etc?


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## liaconn (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Partly that, Caveat. But also there tends to be an attitude (in the Civil Service anyway) of 'we've always had six staff in this section so we have to retain that number' even if projects have been delivered, priorities have changed etc. Managers are dreadful for 'holding on' to staff who are needed elsewhere. In the meantime, other areas which have suddenly got busier, have to fight to get extra staff. To me this is a major, major failing in human resource policy in the Public Service and affects staff morale and motivation as well as delivery of objectives.


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## galleyslave (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

liaconn - the same thing happens with resources and budgets. The attitude that we may need it, and besides, if we take a cut now, we'll never get it back. I think empire building comes into it also. But how to change that culture?


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## Sunny (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

See this could turn into a much more constructive thread than what usually happens. Maybe if the public sector workers make suggestions, they can be submitted to the Government for inclusion in talks with the Unions. Not all will work or be acceptable but at least the ideas are coming from the people at the coal face.


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## liaconn (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

That's the problem. If everyone gave up what they didn't need there would be no problem with people getting staff or budgetary allocations back when they do need them because there'd be enough to go around. It would take a sea change in attitude plus a much firmer approach by Management Boards to get this started though. Also, Department of Finance would have to get properly on board and be more flexible in their approach.  

Sorry, that's an answer to Caveat.


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## Caveat (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

God it's all so civil and reasonable all of a sudden 

I think that's a good point from galleyslave re budgets - I have a lot of experience of last minute unnecessary budget exhausting, for fear of budget reductions.  

How is this measured anyway?  Is it that one random budget, one year, is maybe taken as an 'average' even though it may have been required during extraordinary circumstances/expenditure?


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## Sunny (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Caveat said:


> God it's all so civil and reasonable all of a sudden


 
Think the word you are looking for is boring!


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## Complainer (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

The bad news is that several posters on this thread (probably without even realising it) have continued to bash the public sector on this thread. This is why (as I've explained in this post - down the end) I won't be posting my proposed solutions on AAM.


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## damson (26 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Well, it's never going to be all kittens and rainbows. But if it can stay in the civil and reasonable (boring!) zone, with constructive suggestions and genuine attempts at problem solving I'll be happy.


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## Lex Foutish (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Complainer said:


> *The bad news is that several posters on this thread (probably without even realising it) have continued to bash the public sector on this thread.* This is why (as I've explained in this post - down the end) I won't be posting my proposed solutions on AAM.


 
Agree with the bold type above, Complainer.

The whole Public Service bashing thing on AAM has become a big turn off for me. As I've said here many times, many such posters argue their points very well but, overall, it has become endless, boring, repetitious, tiring and tedious, punctuated by a degree of ignorance and misinformation. 

I'm not going to post about it anymore, either. It's pointless. We're all going around in circles.


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## galleyslave (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

so according to the above posters, who incidently, despite saying they werent going to post had to post to say that, we can't debate the issue, because doing so constitutes 'bashing' the public sector. Changing the culture, looking for possibilities to improve things..

Well, folks, stay out of it then. Back to the issue at hand.


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## Firefly (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



liaconn said:


> There should be proper staff mobility policies and regular reviews (at least annually) of staffing needs in different areas. These should be done objectively and, if not ruthlessly, very very firmly.


 
Just a suggestion - why not provide specifics e.g. for the above if you know a section that is very quiet and one that's really busy provide these department names / job functions etc.

Similarly another poster mentioned the sharing of IT...again provide specifics - maybe the HSE has more than one payroll package, reporting tool, data warehouse etc.


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## Firefly (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

If this thread took off correctly, it could be a super resource for those that can make a change!


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## Caveat (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Complainer said:


> The bad news is that several posters on this thread (probably without even realising it) have continued to bash the public sector on this thread.


 
Bash/criticise/discuss/mention? 

Pity you won't contribute as you seem to have in depth knowledge of a number of areas within the civil/public service and have recognised the need for change and improvement yourself. 

I think this thread should be abandoned for now and a proper new one started in the vein of what Shawady VOR & Mpsox were saying.


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## Latrade (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Caveat said:


> Bash/criticise/discuss/mention?
> I think this thread should be abandoned for now and a proper new one started in the vein of what Shawady VOR & Mpsox were saying.


 
+ 1, but with rules: 


As in as much specifics as you can.
The old prinicple of if you are making a claim, you are the one who should back it up. This may be difficult, but then there are sources of information out there (even just the C&AG site). If you can't back it up, don't state it as fact.
If it is just an idea as in "could we centralise IT for whole of CS/PS" then cleary say as you're in a position of not knowing if it can be done, don't state it as fact.
If it is your idea and it doesn't turn out to be workable, don't take offence and get on with your day.
If it is an idea that is only partly workable (i.e some departments but not HSE, Gardai etc) then can we agree on the bits that are workable?
A saving of €2 million is still a saving. In the context of €4 billion, it isn't much, but every little counts. Don't discount just because it seems small.
etc


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## Complainer (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Can we start new threads to get views from well-intentioned but largely ignorant bystanders on;

- How Ford should design their new Focus
- How Elan should develop their next drug therapy
- How Bank Of Ireland should develop their business banking service
- How Microsoft should develop Windows 8

For each poster who posts their suggestions about the public service - think about your own organisation and your own functional speciality. And think about how much value you would expect to get from an interested bystander who read a couple of biased newspaper articles about your area a few months ago?

Folks - you are vastly overestimating the value of amatuer opinion. In developing public policy and public services, there is a role for consultation with the public, and this is normally a standard part of the process already. The idea that a gang of interested bystanders are going to fix the problems of the public service with some Internet postings is just ludicrous. This stuff is hard. This stuff requires experience and knowledge.


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## Caveat (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

I think the point, at least initially,  is more for _public sector/civil service_ posters to make the suggestions - not just anybody.  At least some of them should have sensible informed views no?

I don't think anyone is expecting ingenious panaceas.  But we have to start somewhere.


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## Complainer (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Caveat said:


> I think the point, at least initially,  is more for _public sector/civil service_ posters to make the suggestions - not just anybody.  At least some of them should have sensible informed views no?


I'm sure they do, but I've no idea why you expect them to post them here. They should be working on them within their own organisations/networks/unions etc. Sorry this is bad news, but AAM does not run the public sector.


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## VOR (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Complainer said:


> This stuff requires experience and knowledge.


 
And that attitude says it all really. You try and be constructive and get met with a dismissive attitude. 

Many people on this site have years of experience in many large companies. We have brought about change in systems, structure and culture. But folks "this stuff is hard".

But of course what Complainer misses completely is that the first thing Microsoft did when designing W8 was to *ASK* the user what we wanted.
Ditto Ford, BOI and Elan. What's more the companies he mentioned will travel the world for best practice. Microsoft will even use champion-challenger. 

Unfortunately, Ford do that and then get met by a union who just say no.


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## shnaek (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

It is a good strategy in a debate to bring your opponent on a journey round and round in cirlces until they give up in frustration. It is a strategy best employed to maintain the status quo. It is also helpful if you can put your opponent constantly on the defensive.


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## Caveat (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Complainer said:


> I'm sure they do, but I've no idea why you expect them to post them here.


 
Well Shawady seems willing for one. I'm sure there are others.



> They should be working on them within their own organisations/networks/unions etc.


 
Well maybe they are? They may not always be in a position or role to affect change or even be listened to though. Plenty of success stories from within the private sector of ideas from a variety of levels or roles on cost savings or even product development e.g. the idea for Sega's gaming character _Sonic the Hedgehog _apparently came from a cleaning lady from within the organisation.

If you don't want to do it Complainer, fine, but please don't discourage those that do.


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## Complainer (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



VOR said:


> Many people on this site have years of experience in many large companies. We have brought about change in systems, structure and culture. But folks "this stuff is hard".


How many of those changes were inspired by proposals from well-meaning bystanders?



VOR said:


> But of course what Complainer misses completely is that the first thing Microsoft did when designing W8 was to *ASK* the user what we wanted.
> Ditto Ford, BOI and Elan. What's more the companies he mentioned will travel the world for best practice. Microsoft will even use champion-challenger.


You might want to go back and re-read my post, particularly this bit *"In developing public policy and public services, there is a role for consultation with the public, and this is normally a standard part of the process already."

*


Caveat said:


> Well maybe they are? They may not always be in a position or role to affect change or even be listened to though. Plenty of success stories from within the private sector of ideas from a variety of levels or roles on cost savings or even product development e.g. the idea for Sega's gaming character _Sonic the Hedgehog _apparently came from a cleaning lady from within the organisation.
> 
> If you don't want to do it Complainer, fine, but please don't discourage those that do.



Hey, knock yourself out. Fire away. But let's not kid ourselves about the value of these AAM discussions.


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## Caveat (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Complainer said:


> Hey, knock yourself out. Fire away.


 
What's with the attitude?  Anyway, I won't be posting other than to ask questions because as I'm sure you have gathered, I don't work in the public/civil service.



> But let's not kid ourselves about the value of these AAM discussions.


 
Yes. So you keep saying. Gotcha.


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## Latrade (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Complainer said:


> Hey, knock yourself out. Fire away. But let's not kid ourselves about the value of these AAM discussions.


 
Hang on. The aim isn't to change the world or elevate the importance of AAM. It's an important subject that has implications for everyone in the state, not just tax payers and not just public sector employees. Where's the harm in a bunch of people having a rational discussion on this? 

Maybe the "la la la, I'm not listening" approach does more harm than good. Maybe it's about educating those who are forming irrational opinions about the PS/CS. Maybe because if there isn't some aspect of savings we'll be pretty much screwed come early in the new year. Maybe because if the government doesn't try something beyond sweeping cuts, it'll end up setting back our standard of living to a third world level. Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner....

the issue isn't going to go away.


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## Complainer (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Caveat said:


> What's with the attitude?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_mentality


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## galleyslave (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

complainer, if I've sat this thread out for a while now because you have managed to disrupt it, like you did the other, for no seemingly good reason but please, enough. If you dont like the thread content, dont contribute, but don't try and derail/sidetrack it either. Why keep posting if you see no value in it ?


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## Sunny (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Complainer said:


> Hey, knock yourself out. Fire away. But let's not kid ourselves about the value of these AAM discussions.


 
I love the way you go on about everyone elses ill-informed comments but you are the same person who has suggested more than once that the savings the Government are looking for can be made by not pumping any more money into Anglo Irish Bank. 

The whole idea of public services is just that. They are public services. If people want to suggest ways to improve them on this forum or through any other means, they are free to do so. Some of the suggestions might not make sense, some of them might be ludicrious and biased and based on incorrect facts but some of them might just be worth taking on board. So maybe instead of bashing every suggestion when you don't know for sure they won't work any more than the person who made it knows for sure it will work, you could start adding something constructive or else just ignore the whole thread since as you point out AAM doesn't run the public sector so why does it bother you what these deranged ill-informed people write. 

We all know (most of us anyway) that throwing ideas out there like centralising IT, demolishing every single quango, cutting jobs etc are simplistic solutions and don't stand up to scrutiny so stop getting your knickers in a twist pointing out the flaws. 

Anyway like Caveat, I am not commenting anymore.


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## Howitzer (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

+1. Just watching.


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## shnaek (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

I'd like to suggest a ZONE system on busses in Dublin city, so you can hop from bus to bus on the one ticket within a certain timeframe to get to your destination. This system operates in most European cities. In every other city your fee should allow you hop on busses going in the one direction in a certain timeframe. All cities outside Dublin are too small for a ZONE system, so they should simply be considered a single ZONE.

Or would I be better off starting a new thread for this suggestion?


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## galleyslave (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Id start a new one. this one has been trashed


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## Complainer (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Well boohoohoo - You get to experience just a tiny portion of the bile and vitriol that has been heaped on the public sector on this site for years now, and particularly escalating over the past 12 months, and you throw a huff, take your ball and run home.

Perhaps how you might start understanding how public servants feel after enduring these ongoing attacks.

Can I suggest that each poster who submits a suggestion about improving the public services includes details of their own role/function/organisation, so that the public servants who know nothing about those businesses can submit their suggestions for improvements too?


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## galleyslave (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

in other words you are deliberately sabotaging the debate. Thought so, exactly why I stopped 'debating' with you on the other thread.


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## Complainer (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



galleyslave said:


> in other words you are deliberately sabotaging the debate. Thought so, exactly why I stopped 'debating' with you on the other thread.


Look up, galleyslave - There's the important point, flying right over your head.


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## Caveat (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Shawady said:


> +1.
> The PS wage bill will have to reduced and is worth discussing but it just ends up getting bogged down non-PS workers making cheap shots or PS workers getting over-defensive.
> *I was going to start a thread for public servant to make suggestions* as to savings could be made in the public sector but I could see it would end up going down the same road as previous threads.


 


Mpsox said:


> *I think Shawady post about public sector workers making suggestions for cost savings is an excellent one,* providing they are not couched in vague management speak around "efficiencies" and "synergies". These are the people at the coal face, why not get them to make some reasoned suggestions, preferable with numbers attached and ask private sector worker posters not to comment on them for a week?


 


VOR said:


> *I would be delighted to see such posts. And would be* *happy not to comment at all*. I would be very interested in seeing the outcome.


 


Caveat said:


> *I think the point, at least initially, is more for public sector/civil service posters to make the suggestions *


 
*



I think this thread should be abandoned for now and a proper new one started in the vein of what Shawady VOR & Mpsox were saying.

Click to expand...

* 


> Anyway, *I won't be posting other than to ask questions because as I'm sure you have gathered, I don't work in the public/civil service.
> *


 
Are you sure you have even grasped the concept of this thread complainer?




Complainer said:


> Can I suggest that each poster who submits a suggestion about improving the public services includes details of their own role/function/organisation, so that the public servants who know nothing about those businesses can submit their suggestions for improvements too?


 
Because it doesn't look like it.


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## galleyslave (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

nope, it's not. You're confusing legitimately held beliefs expressed by those with contrary opinions with deliberate sabotage. 
You deliberately sabotaged the thread. Others, as far as I can see simply disagreed.


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## Latrade (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

The thread's dead baby. The thread's dead.


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## S.L.F (27 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

I read the entire thread on politics.ie and have to say I agree with 95% of what was written.

I'm not a PS worker, I have seen the hurt and frustration on the people I do know in the PS from all the lies coming from the media.

I also would like to see a truce, we should be attacking the govt for the shambles they have left our country in.

We are all in this together we either sink or swim.


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## boris (28 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



S.L.F said:


> I read the entire thread on politics.ie and have to say I agree with 95% of what was written.
> 
> I'm not a PS worker, I have seen the hurt and frustration on the people I do know in the PS from all the lies coming from the media.
> 
> ...


 
Well SLF I totally agree.  I work in the CS and have been subject to wholesome abuse from everyone since last year.  This carryon has been depressing for both me and my colleagues despite the fact that we work our butts off and love the work we do.

I was talking to a colleague of mine who stated that things were not far from brother turning against brother.  He was right.  I have now started to see this seeping through to family members.  I was told the other night by mother with regards to pay cutbacks that the "public service doesn't matter" and that nobody cares about them.  This attitude has been drummed into her by the media.

I  do think that the public strike last week would not have happened only for the media abuse that is being hurled at them and that the ps/cs have just enough at this stage.  The media are only interested in a  story and the consequences do not matter to them.

Either we all pull together or we sink.


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## Lex Foutish (28 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Excellent posts, S.L.F. and Boris.

The hate campaign being waged against the Public Service in the media has been very successful, especially when coupled with a healthy dose of good old Irish begrudgery.


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## boris (28 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

Thanks Lex.  Don't often post here but I feel strongly that things have gone far enough.  This country is slowing going into crisis and the name/blame game is not helping things.  The vast majority of my colleagues will do their share to help things out but the onslaught from such crap published by the Sindo etc. has their backs up.

I could go on and on but enough is enough.


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## S.L.F (28 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



boris said:


> Well SLF I totally agree. I work in the CS and have been subject to wholesome abuse from everyone since last year. This carryon has been depressing for both me and my colleagues despite the fact that we work our butts off and love the work we do.
> 
> I was talking to a colleague of mine who stated that things were not far from brother turning against brother. He was right. I have now started to see this seeping through to family members. I was told the other night by mother with regards to pay cutbacks that the "public service doesn't matter" and that nobody cares about them. This attitude has been drummed into her by the media.
> 
> ...


 
Things are bad when your mum doesn't love you any more because you are a PS worker!!!


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## boris (28 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

I know.

But the point still stands as to how far the media have driven this and misrepresented the truth.  People in the public service have been berated continuously for the last year and more and what has it gained  us - nothing. Nobody wants to suffer but amongst my colleagues their anger has been driven by the way the media is conducting themselves and the absolute lies that it has printed about them. 

I don't agree with going out on strike and I have always believed that the process of Partnership should be the way going forward (it has served all well enough in the past).  I do hope that we don't go out again this week as that doesn't serve the needs of Government and of the public.

If there is one thing that sticks in my mind during this crisis is coming into work on a Monday morning and listening to my friends and colleagues giving out over what the papers were saying about them on Sunday.  This has been a huge contributing factor to the industrial unrest that is ongoing at the moment.


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## S.L.F (28 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



boris said:


> I don't agree with going out on strike and I have always believed that the process of Partnership should be the way going forward (it has served all well enough in the past). I do hope that we don't go out again this week as that doesn't serve the needs of Government and of the public.


 
The process of partnership has been the way forward but you have to remember, it was the govt who went back on it not the unions.

I don't see how you can put the needs of the govt with the needs of the public together in the same sentence, the public has been hoodwinked by the media which has been influenced by our govt.

Anybody who says otherwise is just kidding themselves.

Speaking for myself I support the strike I don't see what else the Public Service can do.


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## boris (28 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*

SLF, I did vote for industrial action myself as well.  Maybe I am putting the needs of the government and public together as I have worked in both spheres.  

However I have watched fellow staff members who at the beginning of this year were for wage cutbacks and against industrial action completely turn over the course of the year.

I also agree with you over the Govt. influencing the media but I also think that the media were always anti PS.  I seem to remember an unofficial CS embargo with a certain newspaper in the mid 1990's over some articles that were viciously anti CS.  However I do think IBEC also have a hand in this as well.


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## Birroc (29 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Complainer said:


> Well boohoohoo - You get to experience just a tiny portion of the bile and vitriol that has been heaped on the public sector on this site for years now, and particularly escalating over the past 12 months, and you throw a huff, take your ball and run home.


 
I think it's fair to say that any private sector worker would jump at the chance to join the PS at a roughly equivalent position/salary despite your 'bile and vitriol' - its ever man for himself these days. I was in public sector but left - now I am desperately trying to get back in. My ex-colleagues in PS are slagging me off constantly because I left. My own fault.

What sickens me about the PS is that nobody within it will admit that it's in need of serious reform and that some of the dossing & waste that goes on in simply astounding. But I feel like an insider posting some of these stories. Maybe I am just bitter. When/If I get back in, I am going to become like Complainer and defend it to the hilt !


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## gianni (29 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Birroc said:


> I think it's fair to say that any private sector worker would jump at the chance to join the PS at a roughly equivalent position/salary despite your 'bile and vitriol' - its ever man for himself these days. I was in public sector but left - now I am desperately trying to get back in. My ex-colleagues in PS are slagging me off constantly because I left. My own fault.



If it was so good, why did you ever leave ??


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## S.L.F (29 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Birroc said:


> What sickens me about the PS is that nobody within it will admit that it's in need of serious reform and that some of the dossing & waste that goes on in simply astounding.


 
So there's no chance of a truce from you then, is there?


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## bogle (29 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Birroc said:


> I think it's fair to say that any private sector worker would jump at the chance to join the PS at a roughly equivalent position/salary despite your 'bile and vitriol' - its ever man for himself these days. I was in public sector but left - now I am desperately trying to get back in. My ex-colleagues in PS are slagging me off constantly because I left. My own fault.
> 
> What sickens me about the PS is that nobody within it will admit that it's in need of serious reform and that some of the dossing & waste that goes on in simply astounding. But I feel like an insider posting some of these stories. Maybe I am just bitter. When/If I get back in, I am going to become like Complainer and defend it to the hilt !


 
I'm sorry but this whole post is bit suspicious to me, especially this part _"now I am desperately trying to get back in"_. Everybody knows the CS/PS is shedding staff due to the recruitement moritorium , early retirement scheme and career break scheme. The only posts being filled are specialist e.g. medical, some teaching and very senior positions (assistant sec and above).


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## thedaras (29 Nov 2009)

Can I suggest something radical??

How about not reading the threads that you are either bored or not interested in?

This way those of us whom do want a debate and are prepared to read others opinions are free to do so,and you can just wonder about the issues of toilet paper being in or out...


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## S.L.F (29 Nov 2009)

thedaras said:


> This way those of us whom do want a debate and are prepared to read others opinions are free to do so,and you can just wonder about the issues of toilet paper being in or out...


 
That issue was resolved before and it was mainly out

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=106735

If it had not been closed I'm sure it would still be going today...


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## Firefly (30 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Birroc said:


> I was in public sector but left - now I am desperately trying to get back in.


 
How does this work? Are all positions not advertised and open to all?


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## Birroc (30 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



gianni said:


> If it was so good, why did you ever leave ??


 
I got bored and I am an idiot. If I get back in, I wont ever leave again!


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## Birroc (30 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Firefly said:


> How does this work? Are all positions not advertised and open to all?


 
Yes of course they are. And I am trying my best!


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## galleyslave (30 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Firefly said:


> How does this work? Are all positions not advertised and open to all?


many positions are only open to people with (I think) 3 years prior experience in the public service or to currently serving staff. 

For example, I'd have killed for an IT role in the PS a few years back, but could not apply due to the above rules. The way in would have been to apply as an entry level grade 3 clerical officer which is open to the public, push pens for a few years and hope to get in that way... crazy


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## Firefly (30 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



galleyslave said:


> many positions are only open to people with (I think) 3 years prior experience in the public service


 
Basically, those that have left, changed their mind and now want back in? Where's the fairness in that. You would think that anyone who leaves an employment of their own chosing should be the last to be emploed there again? I'd be very interested in seeing an example of this in the terms and conditions...unreal!


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## Protocol (30 Nov 2009)

Here's a suggestion to reduce the public sector / private sector divisions:

Make all public sector workers not permanent, i.e. allow them to be made redundant like anybody else

Make every worker pensionable, i.e. ensure that all workers have good pensions

Therefore, nobody will be "permanent" and everybody will be "pensionsable", so the differences are reduced.


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## galleyslave (30 Nov 2009)

*Re: Any chance of a truce?*



Firefly said:


> I'd be very interested in seeing an example of this in the terms and conditions...unreal!


not sure about terms and conditions, but you can easily check out publicjobs.ie for examples


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