# Neighbour built 40sq m Garden Accommodation



## anxiousannie (13 Dec 2017)

I'm a regular browser  on these forums, but first time posting. Apologies for length of the post, but I'm very stressed over this.
I've been put in a difficult position by my direct neighbour beside us, not attached.  We live in a semi detached house in a  suburban estate in Dublin, so we have small gardens.  My long time neighbour's daughter moved into the house and has now built garden accommodation of 40 sq m, consisting of 2 bedrooms, a bathroom and living area.  My problem is that there was never planning permission sought.  We were told that they were building accommodation but that it would have no impact on us.  Nothing could have been further from the truth.  We didn't see plans, nor were we offered.
After the building started, very quickly we were shocked about the size of the imposing structure looking over our garden.  We raised these concerns and obviously a row ensued and their foreman insisted that they didn't require PP as they would attach it to the house with perspex, therefore fell within the remit of no PP required.  They conceded by reducing the height of the structure and it's now just above garden shed height.  Previously, it was blocking our evening sunglight.
Our problem is that now 2 adults and a child have moved into the construction, we can hear their noise in our kitchen.  They have put double doors overlooking our kitchen and garden.  When we are outside we can hear them talking inside, this will not bode well for the summer.  Also, they must have had other kids in, but it sounded like a bass drum in our kitchen.
My understanding of the law is that anything over 25sq m in the garden, requires PP.  Any garden room that is lived in requires PP and finally any extension of 40sq m, must match the finish of the already existing house. 
We've been put in a incredibly difficult position as when our concerns were initially raised, I was blamed as a trouble maker.  I had a good friendship with the girl's mother which is now on tender hooks.  We're in a rock and a hard place.  I don't believe that I should have to live with the noise and impact on privacy.  They are adamant they don't require PP and I'm being difficult.  We can address the privacy issue by raising our fence, but what about noise? Do we have any rights here?
Can anyone please advise on how I should proceed and if my assumptions of PP law are in fact correct?  Will this impact the value of our own property as if this is not resolved long term, we are thinking of selling.
Thanks for reading.


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## Easeler (13 Dec 2017)

This kind of thing is probably going to get more common and if its built legally there is not a lot you can do .what I would do is pop around with a small gift and bury the hatchet and wish them well in there new home, its nice for the young family to have a home of there own this christmas.


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## galway_blow_in (13 Dec 2017)

anxiousannie said:


> I'm a regular browser  on these forums, but first time posting. Apologies for length of the post, but I'm very stressed over this.
> I've been put in a difficult position by my direct neighbour beside us, not attached.  We live in a semi detached house in a  suburban estate in Dublin, so we have small gardens.  My long time neighbour's daughter moved into the house and has now built garden accommodation of 40 sq m, consisting of 2 bedrooms, a bathroom and living area.  My problem is that there was never planning permission sought.  We were told that they were building accommodation but that it would have no impact on us.  Nothing could have been further from the truth.  We didn't see plans, nor were we offered.
> After the building started, very quickly we were shocked about the size of the imposing structure looking over our garden.  We raised these concerns and obviously a row ensued and their foreman insisted that they didn't require PP as they would attach it to the house with perspex, therefore fell within the remit of no PP required.  They conceded by reducing the height of the structure and it's now just above garden shed height.  Previously, it was blocking our evening sunglight.
> Our problem is that now 2 adults and a child have moved into the construction, we can hear their noise in our kitchen.  They have put double doors overlooking our kitchen and garden.  When we are outside we can hear them talking inside, this will not bode well for the summer.  Also, they must have had other kids in, but it sounded like a bass drum in our kitchen.
> ...




anyone who would do this without first consulting a neighbour is not a good neighbour and i would not waste my time trying to be friendly about it , dropping around with cookies is hardly going to force them to demolish what they have built !

its an extrordinarily obnoxious thing to have done , its also very stupid , if they didnt seek planning permission , they havent a leg to stand on , drop down to the local authority office , go to the planning section and find out if they have gotten any sort of planning permission , that info is publically available , you need to be prepared to deal with this head on , otherwise you have to resign yourself to a huge imposition on your surroundings indefinatley

why should you have to sell up and move ?

these are not good neighbours at all

deal with it through official channels


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## Delboy (13 Dec 2017)

A very rosy summary there Pat but not realistic for Annie in her current situation.

My understanding is that if something is built without the proper PP, then it can be knocked. I sympathise with your position and certainly wouldn't like it to happen in my area. The neighbours have been incredibly selfish and ignorant here IMO as they ploughed ahead with this without really considering you beforehand. Build it and be damned seems to have been their plan.

I would talk to a planning expert and see what is permissable and what isn't. I would also go to the LA planning office and ask to see whether they submitted any plans...doubtful by the sounds of it but worth a try. And while there get the opinion of someone in that office.
So find out what case you have first.
And then decide if you want to pursue it and all that will come with...major rows with the neighbour, solicitors and all the hassle/costs that come with that lot. If it was me, I would pursue it if I had the ground to do so. Perhaps get someone else to lodge the planning objection who lives a bit further away and so take yourself out of the firing line?

Whatever you decide, best of luck with it all and hope you find some peace of mind.


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## cremeegg (13 Dec 2017)

Hi Annie,

So two totally different views already. 

First of all, you need to find out for definite if planning permission was required for what they have done. Pay a few hundred euro and get a professional opinion. From what you have said I suspect that planning was not required, but you need to know for certain for your own peace of mind.

Secondly kids being noisy may not be something you are accustomed to in the estate but if we are talking about kids playing during the day or evening you cannot really expect to be able to object. If we are talking about teenagers playing music loudly at night that is different.

They changed their plans at your request to reduce the height to just over a garden shed. So they made an effort to meet your concerns.

Moving to avoid the situation may land you with worse neighbours. You could look at some type of noise insulation as a practical option.  

Dont let this issue get blown out of proportion.


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## Easeler (13 Dec 2017)

I don't believe anyone would spend a lot of money on an extension with out knowing the planning rules there was some compromise there but not enough for OP,  its not an ideal situation but its completely out of necessity I would say.


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## michaelm (13 Dec 2017)

I suspect that it will turn out that they can build the structure without PP but that it can't be used as sleeping accommodation without PP (it could be used as a home office or similar).


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## Easeler (13 Dec 2017)

My understanding is its an extension on to the main house that happens to be built in the garden.


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## Delboy (13 Dec 2017)

galwaypat said:


> I don't believe anyone would spend a lot of money on an extension with out knowing the planning rules


You must be new to Ireland !



> its not an ideal situation but its completely out of necessity I would say.


Thats neither here nor there and should have no weight in this issue


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## anxiousannie (13 Dec 2017)

galwaypat said:


> This kind of thing is probably going to get more common and if its built legally there is not a lot you can do .what I would do is pop around with a small gift and bury the hatchet and wish them well in there new home, its nice for the young family to have a home of there own this christmas.


While I appreciate the moral sentiment, what about the young family now facing permanent noise and the sanctuary of a home being compromised.  Would you have such a Christian outlook, if it was 8 foot from your border fence?


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## cremeegg (13 Dec 2017)

anxiousannie said:


> the sanctuary of a home being compromised.



Dont allow your obvious shock at this development rob you of a sense of perspective.


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## Leo (13 Dec 2017)

Attaching to the main house with perspex does not cut it, that does not constitute an extension. Separate garden structures such as this must have full planning permission in order to be used as accommodation. 

You should be able to check your LA's planning section online for any permission sought, but from what you have reported they said, it would appear they didn't apply. 

This will clearly have an impact on your ability to sell your home in future, and needs to be addressed now.


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## Easeler (13 Dec 2017)

There is nobody going to through that family out of there new home built illegally or otherwise thankfully in this country so I suggest the op just get on with it, don't go spending any money on advisers or solicitors, your only bringing stress on yourself accept your living in a very crowded place and that comes with advantages and disadvantages.


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## Leo (13 Dec 2017)

galwaypat said:


> There is nobody going to through that family out of there new home built illegally or otherwise thankfully in this country so I suggest the op just get on with it, don't go spending any money on advisers or solicitors, your only bringing stress on yourself accept your living in a very crowded place and that comes with advantages and disadvantages.



Not true, an enforcement order is almost certain to be issued here unless the owners apply for and get retention. Based solely on the OP's description of the construction, they will not get retention and so will be correctly forced to demolish the unit and pay a fine.


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## Easeler (13 Dec 2017)

Ok turf them out than


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## Delboy (13 Dec 2017)

galwaypat said:


> There is nobody going to through that family out of there new home built illegally or otherwise thankfully in this country so I suggest the op just get on with it, don't go spending any money on advisers or solicitors, your only bringing stress on yourself accept your living in a very crowded place and that comes with advantages and disadvantages.


This is terrible 'advice' and clearly incorrect. Freeman-esque type stuff


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## Easeler (13 Dec 2017)

What good is going to come out of this for the OP, OK so she gets it knocked what than, they have to spend the rest of there lives living there beside neighbours they don't get on with horrible situation.


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## cremeegg (13 Dec 2017)

An extension up to 40 m^2 which is not higher than the original house, does not require planning permission.

Arguments may arise around the perspex connection to the rest of the house or the difference in finish. However it does not seem to me from reading your initial post that you are likely to get an enforcement order requiring the building be knocked. An enforcement order requiring a change to the finish or some addition to the perspex connection is hardly worth the effort. However I do think that as it is obviously important to you, that if you get a proper opinion it may set your mind at rest.

I think that you will get little sympathy from ant third party, a family has been housed, a child is playing versus a perceived increase in noise. The underutilisation of the existing housing in Ireland stock is a major contributor to homelessness.


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## galway_blow_in (13 Dec 2017)

galwaypat said:


> There is nobody going to through that family out of there new home built illegally or otherwise thankfully in this country so I suggest the op just get on with it, don't go spending any money on advisers or solicitors, your only bringing stress on yourself accept your living in a very crowded place and that comes with advantages and disadvantages.



even it were a family of mice living in a house where planning permission was neither sought , nor granted , the house - extension would not be allowed to remain standing , who is living in it is irrelevant


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## cremeegg (13 Dec 2017)

galway_blow_in said:


> even it were a family of mice living in a house where planning permission was neither sought , nor granted , the house - extension would not be allowed to remain standing , who is living in it is irrelevant



This is simply not true. Certainly there have been a few widely reported cases of enforcement orders being granted which required families to move out and houses to be knocked. There are many more cases where enforcement orders are not granted because of "soft" arguments, such as could be made in this case.


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## anxiousannie (13 Dec 2017)

Many thanks for responses.
When I comment on noise, it's actually the banging of kids running within the cabin.  If it were part of a permanent structure, we wouldn't be subjected to this noise.  It's not about kids playing, I have a young family and I'm fully aware of regular noise that comes from having them. My neighbour would not have heard our noise in their house because of bricks and mortar.  Think of a kid running in an un-insulated shed and the noise being reverberated to the exterior and therefore into our closely situated kitchen.   I'm not exaggerating when I compare it to a bass drum.  
My concerns for privacy is that the double glass doors on the cabin are above my 6 foot fence and when I'm at my back door, I can look into their wooden house.  If it's legal, I heighten my fence.  If it's not, why have been put in a situation where I have to?
There are no winners in this situation.
The structure is currently built within a garden of a house, where 2 bedrooms and a living room are un-used by the sole occupant.  If they required further living space, it could have been built using the 25sq m garden room caveat that excludes the need for PP.

I will take the advise on board and get my own architectural opinion both on the re-sale value of our own house and the legality of the structure that is overlooking our kitchen and garden.

I'm fully aware of our current housing crisis.  What if we all took this attitude and filled our gardens with separate structures that are unregulated?  Before you know it, every savvy landlord will be building these in garden spaces.  What about fire safety?  There are no windows, just double doors.
If it's legal, then yes, I have no say in noise and intrusion.  If it's not legal, then I guess we have to deal with this head on as suggested.  

The neighbours were told by their building company that they did not require planning permission.  If they have been mis-sold a product that is not fit for purpose due to legal issues, should they not have redress from the bunch of cowboys who are allowed to continue to profiteer from naive people?

I didn't come on here to be judged on a moral high ground, I was curious if anybody knew the law before I proceeded down that route.  It's all well and good folk judging me until it comes to your own doorstep.  We've spent a number of years renovating and investing in our house thinking it was a long term future we had here. If I don't address it, we feel we have to move. 
Apologies for the lack of direct quotes, still a newbie and learning how to include these.


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## cremeegg (13 Dec 2017)

It's not a question of anyone being judged, simply that other people will see your situation through different eyes. Not better eyes, not worse, just different. I would hope that a different view would be useful to you.



anxiousannie said:


> If it's legal, then yes, I have no say in noise and intrusion.  If it's not legal, then I guess we have to deal with this head on as suggested.



If the development is legal, that does not mean you cannot make a complaint about noise. First to your neighbours then to the council.


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## PMU (13 Dec 2017)

anxiousannie said:


> Also, they must have had other kids in, but it sounded like a bass drum in our kitchen.


  It sounds like you are living next to my neighbours.  You can check out your situation with the law on exempted developments that is contained in Schedule 2 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 – 2015. These are statutory instruments.  It's my understanding that there must  also be rear access for emergency services, although I am open to correction on this.​ If this is a garden room or equivalent, the providers of these off-the-shelf constructions know the planning laws, and I'm informed they don't build them unless they are within the scope of the regulations.  Of course the cabin is not supposed to be used for overnight accommodation but you're not going to get enforcement.   People just tell the Corpo it's for a disabled person who cannot negotiate stairs, etc. Even if they are not particularly noisy you will get noise if / when they return at night from the cabin to the main house.   Walls can't be more than 2 metres high at the rear, so you should investigate planting bamboo. This should grow relatively quickly and will block out the view into your kitchen, but not the noise.


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## lukegriffen (13 Dec 2017)

in my previous home, my neighbour put up one of those big seomra wooden cabins, v. nice looking, told me that he didn't need planning permission. Then he rents out the cabin, and then a while later moved in to his girlfriend's house  and rented his main house as well, so I said to hell with this & wrote in to the council.
it turns out that the seomra cabin itself didn't need p.p, but as soon as you hook up utilities it's no longer portable &  does need p.permission.  
He had to change its use to a domestic store and to my knowledge it's never been rented out since & that was about 5 years ago, an expensive mistake
you should just write a letter to the council and let them deal with it, i wouldn't spend money hiring professionals for advice.  They didn't care about your feelings, so i wouldn't be too pushed about hurting theirs...


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## KOW (13 Dec 2017)

1. Check with planning office.
2. If they have broken the law it is not your problem do not feel it is.
3. What if you for some reason you want to sell your own property in the future. This could turn around and be a problem to you.
4.Do everything by the book. Be straight up
5. If there is no planning and you feel that the build is affecting your life style act.

Hope this is all sorted. Good luck.

Last thing planning regulations are in place to stop people building what they like where they like ans ultimately harming the environment or other peoples quality of life.


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## Tebbit (14 Dec 2017)

Deal with it straight away - before this new family become too settled in.    You must act quickly - you are entitled to your privacy and I would think they are not entitled to do that.


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## anxiousannie (14 Dec 2017)

I really appreciate all of you taking the time to reply.  I'll have to deal with this in the new year.  I'm a complete softy and this is why the whole issue has caused a lot of stress.  I don't think I have it in me to go directly to planning and instead I will get an architect report drawn up. If it's not legal, the problem will be transferred to my neighbour and if it is legal, I'll put up privacy screening learn to live with it.


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## Clara16 (14 Dec 2017)

in a very similar situation myself anxiousannie, we are new on our street 2 1/2 years.  this summer neighbour's right next door daughter built a 2 bed log cabin in the back garden.  they did not get planning permission which I can save you the research is required.  there thoughts were we will never sell this house.  now I look out my back window to it every morning. complete disaster but they seem to be popping up everywhere and its no solution to housing crisis.


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## aristotle (14 Dec 2017)

Why don't you just check the online planning database for whatever area you are in? Its all online.


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## PMU (14 Dec 2017)

anxiousannie said:


> When I comment on noise, it's actually the banging of kids running within the cabin.  .


The regulations on noise are available on the ENFO website http://www.askaboutireland.ie/enfo/irelands-environment/noise/. The problem is that the noise regulations are concerned with persistent loud noise, i.e. “noise is so loud/so continuous/so repeated/of such duration or pitch/occurring at such times as to give reasonable cause for annoyance ”, but your situation, like many others,  is due to 'normal' noise that is now obtrusive and persistent because of the proximity of the cabin to your dwelling. See the Environmental Protection Agency Act1992 (Noise) Regulations,1994 (S.I.No.179 of 1994) http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/si/179/made/en/print?q=SI+179&years=1994.


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## anxiousannie (14 Dec 2017)

Clara16 said:


> in a very similar situation myself anxiousannie, we are new on our street 2 1/2 years.  this summer neighbour's right next door daughter built a 2 bed log cabin in the back garden.  they did not get planning permission which I can save you the research is required.  there thoughts were we will never sell this house.  now I look out my back window to it every morning. complete disaster but they seem to be popping up everywhere and its no solution to housing crisis.



Ciara, Did you consider reporting it to the Planning Authority? .  It's just a big pile of crap that I don't need right now.  Even though I'm soft natured, I'm not taking this.  If it's illegal (likely), it's wrong of them to expect me not to have a say in something that impacts our house so much.


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## anxiousannie (14 Dec 2017)

Thanks for the links to that PMU
The noise most likely will be classified as 'normal'.  That's the frustrating part.  If their cabin is legal and the noise is 'normal' it'll be an unfortunate decision for us to sell our home.  It'll cost us thousands in moving costs and in this shortage of houses for sale, it'll be difficult to even find one to move to without moving our kids out of school and causing them stress.


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## Clara16 (14 Dec 2017)

as we were new to the road we didn't want to rock the boat too much and we had started off on a good relationship with neighbours on both sides. we are actually in the process of our own planning application for an extension and our architect has said he will have to note their cabin on plans and it may be problematic for them.  both houses either side of us already have extensions so I don't see their being an issue with our planning but it may open a can of worms for them.
noise isn't an issue for us thankfully yet as baby is small, it just looks awful from my bedroom window anytime I look out one of them is on their deck smoking staring back up at me.

I think I will get our own planning over the line and see what happens. the problem with reporting is they don't hide the name and address of the person who makes the complaint so it makes it all very difficult.


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## Delboy (14 Dec 2017)

anxiousannie said:


> I think that's why I'll present them with a report stating what they have done is illegal, if that's how it turns out. It's up to them to pursue their builder for legal redress.


I would be shocked if your neighbours didn't know that this was illegal from the outset. I'd pay no attention to their faux shock on the front or the builders comments that it's all above board.


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## newirishman (14 Dec 2017)

Clara16 said:


> I think I will get our own planning over the line and see what happens. the problem with reporting is they don't hide the name and address of the person who makes the complaint so it makes it all very difficult.



You can make anonymous complaints, as well as asking to be kept anonymous. Of course, if there's only one party that is impacted by it, it won't be particular hard to guess anyways....


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## dereko1969 (14 Dec 2017)

As a first step, and seeing as they already made changes regarding height, could you make them aware of the noise? Some sound cladding or even a carpet might significantly reduce the noise coming into you.
Obviously it won't do anything about the overlooking or the legality of the building but it would at least show some effort on your part to seek to mitigate impact and will give you a good idea of their current thinking.


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## anxiousannie (14 Dec 2017)

Ciara, I think you're right to avoid any confrontation before planning goes ahead!  Typical Ireland, where the person who is in the right and has done no wrong, is not protected by anonymity.

Dereko -   If it's that loud in our house, I'm not sure how it goes un-noticed inside the room.  It would also just kick the can further down the street about it detracting value from our house by having such a large structure right beside our garden.  If it is an illegal structure, our house will be affected.


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## kceire (14 Dec 2017)

OP, log a complaint with the local Planning Enforcement section of the council. 
Your details remain confidential, even in the case of court proceedings and they are not released even under FOI requests. 

The 40Sq. M rule applies, and yes they can have bedrooms in that 40 Sq. M extension, but it must comply with other requirements such as garden space remaining being 25 Sq. M at least, and it must be connected to the rear of the property by way of solid, building regulation compliant construction. For example, it cannot be simply connected by a Perspex lean too structure. 

Log the complaint, and the planning section will do all the leg work and for regularisation or reduction/removal of the structure. 

And yes, I have seen many of these types of structures being removed over the last few years.


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## Thefitz (2 Mar 2018)

Hi

I do a lot of house extension planning applications and I can tell you this is an illegal project. Your neighbours are in breech of planning law and have actually committed an offense. All you need to do is contact enforcement in the planning office and they will inspect the structure and take action. You can download a document online called PL5 planning around the house, and this outlines what you can and can't do. Hope this helps


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## TheBigShort (2 Mar 2018)

Just my tuppence worth.

We built a 40sq m extension onto our house 5yrs ago. At the time (not sure if laws have changed) we didnt require planning permission.
Or at least that what the architect told us!
Being the sceptic that I am, I looked into it myself and true enough, building extensions up to 40sqm did not require PP...._unless....the extension building has a window that overlooks another property whose boundary is within 11metres of the extension.
_
You may have some scope in that regard for some monetary compensation, but I would expect between legal costs and challenges (and peace of mind) it would not be worth it.

But as I say, thats just my tuppence worth.


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## Leo (5 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Being the sceptic that I am, I looked into it myself and true enough, building extensions up to 40sqm did not require PP...._unless....the extension building has a window that overlooks another property whose boundary is within 11metres of the extension._


_

In the OP's case the structure isn't an extension, so is not covered under exempted development.
_


TheBigShort said:


> You may have some scope in that regard for some monetary compensation, but I would expect between legal costs and challenges (and peace of mind) it would not be worth it.



Getting the structure removed is the only recourse here. Lodging a complaint to the LA is free.


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## Alpinemom (30 Jul 2018)

can i ask what was the outcome here?


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## meowmeow88 (21 Feb 2019)

It been2019,the accomodation still stand there?would like to know?please share!


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