# Hibernian moving to India - is it time we acted?



## RMCF (25 Jun 2008)

I listened with much disappointment at the news of 580 jobs being moved to India, wrecking the lives of many Irish people.

Considering we are a country in recession and with many job losses forecast for the coming years, I was wondering is it time we all stood together and tried to do something about it?

I have been a Hibernian insurance customer for approx 7 years. However, I would be more than happy to switch it to another company even if it cost me another small amount each year. We need to try to keep as much wealth and jobs in this country, and we can make a stand if we really want to.

I have several experiences of dealing with India call centres in the past, and I will not do it again with Hibernian. Apparently they speak good English - well not the ones I have spoken to in the past.

So does anyone think that we can make a difference, or will people just accept the Hibernian move, especially if it gives them lower premiums?

Discuss.


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## z103 (25 Jun 2008)

> Considering we are a country in recession and with many job losses forecast for the coming years, I was wondering is it time we all stood together and tried to do something about it?


Like trim down our bloated public sector?, or confront the unions? We'll probably have to make do with tax hikes and reduced services in Budget 2009.

Realistically, we are 10 years too late to 'do anything about it'.


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## S.L.F (25 Jun 2008)

Some of the things we could do

Employ Irish people to do jobs in our houses.

Buy Irish goods where possible.

Buy from companies that are in this country.


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## shanegl (25 Jun 2008)

RMCF said:


> I listened with much disappointment at the news of 580 jobs being moved to India, wrecking the lives of many Irish people.
> 
> Considering we are a country in recession and with many job losses forecast for the coming years, I was wondering is it time we all stood together and tried to do something about it?
> 
> ...


 
What kind of difference are you hoping to make exactly? To reduce their profits so they end up making even more workers redundant? Protectionism makes us poorer.


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## z106 (25 Jun 2008)

RMCF said:


> I listened with much disappointment at the news of 580 jobs being moved to India, wrecking the lives of many Irish people.


 
Lets keep it real here a small bit.
I certainly don't think it will be wrecking the lives of irish people.

Most of those in the redundancies are highly skilled with many years experience in IT,business etc.

Also - many of those going will be contractors.
That is the nature and risk of contracting.
i.e. while it pays more it is more risky.

I'm a contarctor myself - contractors at any time in teh past could have went for a permanent role but decided to take the gamble.

i also was made redundant from hibernian 3 years ago and had teh pick of jobs when i left with a fine redundancy pavkage in my pocket.

Teh bigger issue here is the fact that 600 jobs are going from an irish financial company.
The question is what does this indicate in teh big picture for teh economy?
It is merely incidenatl that it happens to be hibernian doing the redundancies.

hibernian is merely a symptom of teh problem.


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## RMCF (25 Jun 2008)

I appreciate some of your points here, but I still believe that we have to try to keep jobs in this country wherever possible.

OK so all of the 580 people just told that they will be laid off may not be shattered by the news, but many will. And if this move proves a success for Hibernian then its only a matter of time before many hundreds more are moved out to cheap countries.

I know that many will simply buy the cheapest service/labour possible, whether this is Irish or abroad. But I would not mind paying a little extra to have the service provided by an Irish company with Irish staff based in Ireland. I think if more had this attitude then the country would be in a much better state.


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## z106 (25 Jun 2008)

RMCF said:


> I appreciate some of your points here, but I still believe that we have to try to keep jobs in this country wherever possible.
> 
> OK so all of the 580 people just told that they will be laid off may not be shattered by the news, but many will. And if this move proves a success for Hibernian then its only a matter of time before many hundreds more are moved out to cheap countries.
> 
> I know that many will simply buy the cheapest service/labour possible, whether this is Irish or abroad. But I would not mind paying a little extra to have the service provided by an Irish company with Irish staff based in Ireland. I think if more had this attitude then the country would be in a much better state.


 
Fair enough - i guess that if everyone did stand up and take their business from hibernian in protest then this may stop hibernian - and in future,other irish companies -  from outsourcing their jobs.

It's next to impossibel to organise in relaity though.

With hibernian, theyt are part of teh aviva brand which has a policy of restructuring worldwide and hibernian got caught in teh crossfire.


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## Purple (25 Jun 2008)

From what I heard there will be no redundancies; they will simply not hire people to replace those who leave over the next three years. If, nearing the end of that time, they are not on target they will offer voluntary redundancies.

On the more general point will Irish people pay more for their insurance if they are buying it from an Irish company? Personally I don't think many would. 
As has been pointed out the problem is that we as a country are too expensive. It’s not just that we are low cost but we are also not productive enough (for our price). The only way we can resolve this is by cutting costs and/or increasing productivity in the private sector and more particularly in the public sector. The days of the free ride our over, in the coming years we will have to generate wealth without relying on foreign direct investment or harvesting taxes from other countries. 
We are a small country with a young, reasonably well-educated population that is quite dynamic and open to change. There is no good reason why we cannot achieve our potential but it will require a change in attitude so that we all accept that we are responsible for our own actions and no one owes us a living. When and if this happens then we have a bright future. If it doesn’t happen and the mindless protectionism that I heard from the union spokesperson in Hibernian prevails then we are screwed.


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## z106 (25 Jun 2008)

Purple said:


> From what I heard there will be no redundancies; they will simply not hire people to replace those who leave over the next three years. If, nearing the end of that time, they are not on target they will offer voluntary redundancies.


 

and what if 580 people do not leave overteh next 3 years?
i.e. one quarter of teh work force?

That's just a bitof media spin to soften teh blow atthe beginning.

Basically - they are gonna get rid of 580 people over teh next 3 years through whatevr means necessary.
They will then look for voluntary redundancies - and failing that it will be forced redundancies.


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## shnaek (25 Jun 2008)

qwertyuiop said:


> Basically - they are gonna get rid of 580 people over teh next 3 years through whatevr means necessary.
> They will then look for voluntary redundancies - and failing that it will be forced redundancies.


That's capitalism for you. Jobs can't be protected or guaranteed for life. Unless you work in a certain sector of the economy. All we can do is help people retrain and try to grow new industry which needs skilled people like those who work for hibernian.


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## NOAH (25 Jun 2008)

Well I for one will ditch Hibernian imediately, the service is bad at the moment but trust me it will get far worse over the coming months or year.  And of course the people working for Hibernian will shoot themsleves in the foot as usual as the service will get so bad it can only go one way when it is outsourced ie UP.

I have tried for a month to get a refund and a new policy all to no avail.  I gave them my new address in block capitals and they still used the old address that I had left.  Woeful

noa-


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## micmclo (25 Jun 2008)

RMCF said:


> But I would not mind paying a little extra to have the service provided by an Irish company with Irish staff based in Ireland. I think if more had this attitude then the country would be in a much better state.


 
Does this mean you would never use Tesco, Aldi or Lidl and instead use Superquinn or Dunnes even if they are more expensive as an example?

Maybe you already do but a lot of people wouldn't think twice of taking their custom away from an Irish business if they can save money.

The Hibernian case is different alright but you can see the point I making


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## Firefly (25 Jun 2008)

qwertyuiop said:


> and what if 580 people do not leave overteh next 3 years?
> i.e. one quarter of teh work force?
> 
> That's just a bitof media spin to soften teh blow atthe beginning.
> ...


 
Dude... it is "*the"*


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## Blossy (25 Jun 2008)

Firefly said:


> Dude... it is "*the"*


 

 hehe!!


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## Purple (25 Jun 2008)

NOAH said:


> Well I for one will ditch Hibernian imediately, the service is bad at the moment but trust me it will get far worse over the coming months or year.  And of course the people working for Hibernian will shoot themsleves in the foot as usual as the service will get so bad it can only go one way when it is outsourced ie UP.
> 
> I have tried for a month to get a refund and a new policy all to no avail.  I gave them my new address in block capitals and they still used the old address that I had left.  Woeful
> 
> noa-


They are not getting rid of customer facing staff.


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## Complainer (25 Jun 2008)

Purple said:


> It’s not just that we are low cost but we are also not productive enough (for our price). The only way we can resolve this is by cutting costs and/or increasing productivity in the private sector and more particularly in the public sector.


I'd be very interested in an explanation as to how cutting costs in the public sector is more likely to result in lower insurance costs than cutting costs in the private sector?


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## ClubMan (25 Jun 2008)

Atavistic insular populist nationalist sentiments would never influence my purchasing decisions to be honest.


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## room305 (25 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> I'd be very interested in an explanation as to how cutting costs in the public sector is more likely to result in lower insurance costs than cutting costs in the private sector?


 
Not sure about the cost side of things but improved public sector productivity would have a knock-on effect for the entire economy (e.g. people spending less time travelling to and from work).


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## Purple (26 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> I'd be very interested in an explanation as to how cutting costs in the public sector is more likely to result in lower insurance costs than cutting costs in the private sector?



 It was a general point about out cost base as a country and why companies outsource. Do remember that jobs are being lost to the UK, Holland, the USA and other Western countries as well as "new" low cost economies.


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## cole (26 Jun 2008)

S.L.F said:


> Some of the things we could do
> 
> Employ Irish people to do jobs in our houses.
> 
> ...


 
We did this in the 80's, guaranteed Irish and that sort of thing. I won't be doing it again.


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## S.L.F (26 Jun 2008)

cole said:


> We did this in the 80's, guaranteed Irish and that sort of thing. I won't be doing it again.



Why on earth not?

Speaking for myself I have always had Irish people working in my house.

I'm not racist.
I just believe in supporting those who live near us.
Be it a case of buying Irish goods in local shops or making the choice between buying Lamb from New Zealand or a local farmer.

It might cost me more to do but it a price worth paying.


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## cole (26 Jun 2008)

S.L.F said:


> Why on earth not?.....I just believe in supporting those who live near us. Be it a case of buying Irish goods in local shops or making the choice between buying Lamb from New Zealand or a local farmer.
> 
> It might cost me more to do but it a price worth paying.


 
When we made a concious effort to buy Irish during the 80s we felt it was for the good of the country (I know it sounds cringe !), to help ourselves get back on our feet. How were we rewarded? Rip off Ireland. Food prices 30% higher than the [broken link removed] etc. There are loads more examples but you get the drift.

Maybe that's simplistic but it left a bad taste in my mouth.


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## potnoodler (26 Jun 2008)

I understand where  you are coming from and have already sent an email to Hibernian  stating this,other comapnies will be watching this like a hawk especially insurance companies in competition with Hibernian, and the service will go to pot just think of Dell.
No thanks


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## Complainer (26 Jun 2008)

Purple said:


> It was a general point about out cost base as a country and why companies outsource. Do remember that jobs are being lost to the UK, Holland, the USA and other Western countries as well as "new" low cost economies.


Surely it is more directly important that insurance staff (and other people who's jobs are being outsourced) cut their salaries first, rather than looking for the indirect impact that would result from cutting the salaries of public service staff?


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## diarmuidc (26 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> Surely it is more directly important that insurance staff (and other people who's jobs are being outsourced) cut their salaries first, rather than looking for the indirect impact that would result from cutting the salaries of public service staff?



What is a realistic across the board salary cut? 10%. Maybe the savings by moving abroad are greater.


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## Purple (27 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> Surely it is more directly important that insurance staff (and other people who's jobs are being outsourced) cut their salaries first, rather than looking for the indirect impact that would result from cutting the salaries of public service staff?


 Private sector income gets lowered in real terms by basic supply and demand. Public sector pay does not. I agree with you point but I am sure you see the knock-on effect of having public sector pay increase as a proportion of overall tax take and GNP.


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## Complainer (27 Jun 2008)

Purple said:


> Private sector income gets lowered in real terms by basic supply and demand. Public sector pay does not. I agree with you point but I am sure you see the knock-on effect of having public sector pay increase as a proportion of overall tax take and GNP.


The Hibernian situation proves the ineffectiveness of the 'basic supply and demand' theory. Hibernian workers didn't lower their wages. They lost their jobs to India. I wonder how long it will take before Irish banks start advertising 'call centres in Ireland' as a product benefit, as has happened in the UK.

I don't disagree that public sector salaries have an indirect knock-on effect on the overall economy, but to suggest that the solution to the Hibernian situation lies in public sector salaries is at best misguided, and at worst a flawed attempt to spin the IBEC/PD agenda yet again. If you believe that wage levels are the cause of the problem, then the place to start is with the wages of the staff involved.

For the record, I don't believe that the solution to this situation lies in wage cuts by public or private sectors. This is of course the 'race to the bottom' that the IBEC men  (note the lack of gender balance) have wet dreams over. It would be helpful for those who believe the solution to our economic woes lie in wage cuts to lead by example. When do you think that will start happening?


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## z103 (27 Jun 2008)

> It would be helpful for those who believe the solution to our economic woes lie in wage cuts to lead by example. When do you think that will start happening?


I believe slashing public sector jobs and wages would be an excellent start to recovery. The country just can't afford these huge pay packets. What we'll probably end up with is a hike in income tax.

(I haven't had a wage increase in years, so with inflation that's equivalent to a wage cut. However, I work in the private sector.)


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## diarmuidc (27 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> This is of course the 'race to the bottom' that the IBEC men  (note the lack of gender balance) have wet dreams over.


If I go to Dunnes stores instead of Tesco's because the bread is cheaper there, I guess I am running my own race to the bottom? Does that make me a "bad" person?


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## Purple (27 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> The Hibernian situation proves the ineffectiveness of the 'basic supply and demand' theory. Hibernian workers didn't lower their wages. They lost their jobs to India. I wonder how long it will take before Irish banks start advertising 'call centres in Ireland' as a product benefit, as has happened in the UK.
> 
> I don't disagree that public sector salaries have an indirect knock-on effect on the overall economy, but to suggest that the solution to the Hibernian situation lies in public sector salaries is at best misguided, and at worst a flawed attempt to spin the IBEC/PD agenda yet again. If you believe that wage levels are the cause of the problem, then the place to start is with the wages of the staff involved.
> 
> For the record, I don't believe that the solution to this situation lies in wage cuts by public or private sectors. This is of course the 'race to the bottom' that the IBEC men  (note the lack of gender balance) have wet dreams over. It would be helpful for those who believe the solution to our economic woes lie in wage cuts to lead by example. When do you think that will start happening?


We were happy with the race to the bottom when we were at the bottom.


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## Mpsox (27 Jun 2008)

It''s interesting that people give out about jobs being outsourced to India but no one complained when an international multi national outsources jobs to Ireland, as often happened in the past when these companies closed sites elsewhere and moved the job to Ireland as we were cheaper.

However times have changes and the reality is that Ireland has become an extremly expensive country for multi nationals to do business in(and remember, Hibernian are not Irish, they are part of an UK domiciled multi national financial services group called Aviva). Therfore I believe we will see far more of this until we get the cost of doing business in Ireland under control

The downside of this is obviously for the staff. Hibernian are claiming that there will be largely no redundancies as this will be done via natural wastage. However should we be concerned about any company that expects in the normal course of business to loose 25% of it's workforce over 3 years. That sounds to me like Hibernian are a poor company to work for in the first place if staff are not staying. 
Chances are in 3 years time there will be some redundancies as staff who may otherwise have left will hold on for a cheque
As for customer service, I agree with other posters regarding Indian call centres, I have to use them for work and whilst the people are incredibly nice and polite, they are completely process driven and are unable to/not allowed to use iniaitive and think outside the box to resolve an issue. Therefore if I were a customer with a query/issue that is out of the norm, I would wonder about their ability to deal with that. There is also the transition period in which Hibernian will have a very demotivated staff

I fear this will be the first of many such announcements, if not India, then Eastern Europe or China. Like it or not we are not competitive any more


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## csirl (27 Jun 2008)

> *Re: Hibernian moving to India - is it time we acted?*


 
How would us all becoming actors stop an insurance company moving to India? 

Then again, I'm sure some of the union officials will stage a pantomine before this issue goes away


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## Purple (27 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> The Hibernian situation proves the ineffectiveness of the 'basic supply and demand' theory.


I was thought the following in school (it was a few years ago so maybe they've changed it since):
_Supply is the amount of product that a producer is willing and able to sell at a specified price, while demand is the amount of product that a buyer is willing and able to buy at a specified price._
What bit do you find ineffective?


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## Mpsox (27 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> For the record, I don't believe that the solution to this situation lies in wage cuts by public or private sectors. This is of course the 'race to the bottom' that the IBEC men (note the lack of gender balance) have wet dreams over. It would be helpful for those who believe the solution to our economic woes lie in wage cuts to lead by example. When do you think that will start happening?


 
So what is your solution.???????????????

I can't argue that many high level people in both the private and public sector are probably overpaid, at least in the private sector there is often(and I accept, not always) an element of pay for performance. That does not exist in anything other then in name in the public sector.

However public sector employees never seem to factor into their salary the fact that it is close to impossible for many of them to be sacked, no matter how incompetent they are.


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## redstar (27 Jun 2008)

Mpsox said:


> It''s interesting that people give out about jobs being outsourced to India but no one complained when an international multi national outsources jobs to Ireland, as often happened in the past when these companies closed sites elsewhere and moved the job to Ireland as we were cheaper.



Very good point. A few years back, in the '80's, I was involved in transferring some IT projects from Canada to Ireland for a major US multi-national corp. I had to visit the plant in Canada to get some training prior to the move. The people that I worked with over there were the ones who would 'lose out' by some of their work moving to Ireland. They were not too happy about my presence and I could sense some hostility.

No-one in Ireland had any complaints, though.


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## Purple (27 Jun 2008)

redstar said:


> Very good point. A few years back, in the '80's, I was involved in transferring some IT projects from Canada to Ireland for a major US multi-national corp. I had to visit the plant in Canada to get some training prior to the move. The people that I worked with over there were the ones who would 'lose out' by some of their work moving to Ireland. They were not too happy about my presence and I could sense some hostility.
> 
> No-one in Ireland had any complaints, though.


I agree. I've made that point here a number of times.


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## Complainer (27 Jun 2008)

Purple said:


> I was thought the following in school (it was a few years ago so maybe they've changed it since):
> _Supply is the amount of product that a producer is willing and able to sell at a specified price, while demand is the amount of product that a buyer is willing and able to buy at a specified price._
> What bit do you find ineffective?


The ineffective bit is the bit that leaves the Hibernian staff unable to pay their mortgages. Economic theory is fascinating, but the real world is a bit different.



Mpsox said:


> I can't argue that many high level people in both the private and public sector are probably overpaid, at least in the private sector there is often(and I accept, not always) an element of pay for performance. That does not exist in anything other then in name in the public sector.
> 
> However public sector employees never seem to factor into their salary the fact that it is close to impossible for many of them to be sacked, no matter how incompetent they are.



Don't make me laugh with pay for performance in the private sector? How much was Jim Flavin paid for costing DCC in the region of €80m? Even when senior execs are 'fired', this is generally a negotiated settlement (at the cost of the business of course). How is pay for performance applying to the CEO of BOI whose shareholder value has halved in the past year?


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## cork (27 Jun 2008)

redstar said:


> No-one in Ireland had any complaints, though.


 
Our economy is inefficent, bloated and pricey.

A nieghbour of mine wanted to connect his house to the water supply outside his house. He was asked for 15k by the Local Authority. He just dug a well.

The lack of Irish competiveness has to be sorted. The days of people spending vast amounts of money on crap houses and getting cheap credit are gone.


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## L_earner (28 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Atavistic insular populist nationalist sentiments would never influence my purchasing decisions to be honest.


Jeez, where did you purchase your dictionary?


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## Purple (28 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> The ineffective bit is the bit that leaves the Hibernian staff unable to pay their mortgages. Economic theory is fascinating, but the real world is a bit different.


I get what you are saying but it's the result you don't like, not the theory.
How do you feel about the tens of thousands of people who lost their jobs in other countries when their employer relocated here in the 90's?
Were you against that race to the bottom (when we were at the bottom)?




Complainer said:


> Don't make me laugh with pay for performance in the private sector? How much was Jim Flavin paid for costing DCC in the region of €80m? Even when senior execs are 'fired', this is generally a negotiated settlement (at the cost of the business of course). How is pay for performance applying to the CEO of BOI whose shareholder value has halved in the past year?


 Do you think that Jim Flavin and the CEO of Bank of Ireland are typical of every private sector earner?


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## Complainer (29 Jun 2008)

Purple said:


> I get what you are saying but it's the result you don't like, not the theory.


The theory is just that - theory. It's not as if the Hibernian staff get the chance to adjust their income to keep the positions. The Hibernian execs who want to boost their own bonuses are quite happy to wipe out 580 jobs at the stroke of a pen, and will almost certainly damage the customer service provided to their customers. 



Purple said:


> Do you think that Jim Flavin and the CEO of Bank of Ireland are typical of every private sector earner?


They are about as typical of the private sector as the frequently-quoted examples of public sector performance are typical of the public sector. They are of course the tip of the iceberg. We all encounter terrible products and services in both the public and private sectors. We all encounter chancers who aren't pulling their weight in both the public sector.

Creating division by scapegoating public sector staff will do little to help our economic woes.


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## Mpsox (30 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> Don't make me laugh with pay for performance in the private sector? How much was Jim Flavin paid for costing DCC in the region of €80m? Even when senior execs are 'fired', this is generally a negotiated settlement (at the cost of the business of course). How is pay for performance applying to the CEO of BOI whose shareholder value has halved in the past year?


 

If you take the bother to read my post I accepted that performance pay does not exist everywhere in the private sector but that to me, it does not seem to exist at all in the private sector. 

For the record, Brian Goggins(CEO BOI ) saw his performance related bonus fall from €2m in 2007 to €323k in 2008. Bear in mind as well that BOI EPS was up 4% in the last 12 months and the company is highly profitable, regardless of the way the share price has gone


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## Purple (30 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> They are about as typical of the private sector as the frequently-quoted examples of public sector performance are typical of the public sector. They are of course the tip of the iceberg. We all encounter terrible products and services in both the public and private sectors. We all encounter chancers who aren't pulling their weight in both the public sector.



Just to be clear, do you think that competition has any bearing on efficiency?
If not then there's not much point in us debating as we are on different planets when it comes to economics and the economy. If you do then do you accept that competition is more prevalent in the private sector and therefore the private sector will be more efficient?



Complainer said:


> Creating division by scapegoating public sector staff will do little to help our economic woes.


I agree and have said so already in the "recession" thread.


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## joe sod (30 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> The Hibernian situation proves the ineffectiveness of the 'basic supply and demand' theory. Hibernian workers didn't lower their wages. They lost their jobs to India. I wonder how long it will take before Irish banks start advertising 'call centres in Ireland' as a product benefit, as has happened in the UK.
> 
> I don't disagree that public sector salaries have an indirect knock-on effect on the overall economy, but to suggest that the solution to the Hibernian situation lies in public sector salaries is at best misguided, and at worst a flawed attempt to spin the IBEC/PD agenda yet again. If you believe that wage levels are the cause of the problem, then the place to start is with the wages of the staff involved.
> 
> For the record, I don't believe that the solution to this situation lies in wage cuts by public or private sectors. This is of course the 'race to the bottom' that the IBEC men (note the lack of gender balance) have wet dreams over. It would be helpful for those who believe the solution to our economic woes lie in wage cuts to lead by example. When do you think that will start happening?


 
Well there is nothing stopping women becoming businesswomen and being part of IBEC, IBEC does have women members but the majority are men because men start businesses and take risks, there is nothing precluding women from joining, how do you propose to achieve gender balance, do a mugabe on it and force companies headed by men to cease or have a state sponsored seizure, mugabe in zimbabwe was the ultimate statist solution to percieved inequalities in business there.


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## ubiquitous (30 Jun 2008)

Complainer said:


> IBEC men  (note the lack of gender balance)



 Do you include Patricia Callan (Chief Executive of the IBEC-operated Small Firms Association in this?


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## joe sod (30 Jun 2008)

"IBEC/PD agenda" whats this union jargon, its like the unionists referring to Sinn Fein as "Sinn Fein/IRA" , we can all play that game how about Impact/Sinn fein or ICTU/Labour, if you researched it you would probably find that most IBEC members are not PD supporters, the same way as most union members in the public service do not support sinn fein because most public sector workers are middle class not working class. Most IBEC members are small indiginous businesses many who are now in financial trouble


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## ubiquitous (30 Jun 2008)

joe sod said:


> Most IBEC members are small indiginous businesses many who are now in financial trouble



They're not, actually. The preponderance of IBEC membership subscriptions are derived from large employer groups including those in the semi-state sector. The main banks, RTE, the ESB and VHI are all among the most powerful members of IBEC. Granted, some small indigenous businesses are members of the Small Firms Association, which operates under IBEC's wing. Some are members of ISME which split from IBEC in the early 1990s as they felt that IBEC were not properly representing them. Most small indigenous businesses belong to no representative organisation.


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## Purple (30 Jun 2008)

I can include myself in that last group since, like most of them, we are too busy working to attend talking shops. I leave that to unions and the public sector.


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## Mpsox (1 Jul 2008)

My employers are members of IBEC and I have to say that I find their advice on HR and management issues to be pretty good and it is an effective way of getting external advice when needed, especially as being part of a mulit-national, much of our support services are in shared service centres in places like India and staffed by people who with the best will in the world, don't always have the local knowledge


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## Complainer (2 Jul 2008)

Mpsox said:


> much of our support services are in shared service centres in places like India and staffed by people who with the best will in the world, don't always have the local knowledge


And the thread runs full circle!


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