# Update 2.5 years later: Problems with tenants next door: Determination Order frm PRTB



## fullerand (21 May 2006)

Hi,

Bought a 30yr-old semi-detached 3-bed house with my girlfriend in Rathfarnham just before Christmas. The adjoining house has since been bought and is currently rented out to a family of 6 (two parents, three kids aged 5-8 and an infant). The family happens to be <ethnicity removed> (seemingly <religion removed>) and the parents don't have much English.

We have a number of issues with these neighbours, and we're not sure how to proceed - so any advice would be most welcome:

* We can constantly hear the kids screaming at eachother, jumping around, and banging on the walls. I hope it isn't the case, but it seems like the parents often leave the kids home alone to run riot. The infant regularly bawls for hours on end. 

* When in bed at night, we frequently have to listen to screaming matches between the parents, or loud television in their main bedroom.

* Immediately after moving in, they erected *three* large satellite dishes at the back of the house. One of these is over a metre across, and is right beside our back bedroom window. All look unsightly.

I'm actually laughing as I read the above because it all seems ridulous - but it's all true. I'm typing this with headphones on, to get some peace! Note that the houses are well built - I don't feel that soundproofing the walls is the way forward.

We haven't approached them about these problems yet - I guess we wanted to give them a chance to settle in, to see if things eased off. Unfortunately I don't have a phone number for their landlord.

So what should we do - confront the parents and ask them to control their kids? Likely to be difficult with the language barrier. Perhaps we should ask them for the phone number of their landlord, and let him sort them out? 

Wouldn't we be right to contact a community garda if we were sure that the kids were being left home alone?

Thanks - like I said any advice would be appreciated.


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## RainyDay (21 May 2006)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*

Contact the Gardai and/or HSE if the kids are being left alone. Contact the local authority regarding the satellite dishes. Check out the Dept Environment website for details of the process to take a noise pollution claim through the courts.


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## KimWilde (21 May 2006)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*

I remember reading about a similar situation happening in Malahide last year (Fingal indo). Can't remember the details, but it went to court and got messy. Don't think the landlord was terribly helpful.
I would start with the landlord. He/she probably has no idea whats going on.


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## fullerand (21 May 2006)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*

Hi, thanks for the replies.

So you think our interaction should only be through the landlord, rather than directly with the neighbours themselves?

Either way I'll have to interact with them, in order to get the landlord's number from them.   Or is there another means to find the contact details of the owner of any particular house?


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## sam78 (21 May 2006)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*

Check here http://www.prtb.ie/pubreg.htm  (Private residenial tenancies board)

...it might be maintained on the PRTB list of registered tenancies - theres a drop down menu to select each county or area, if the address is maintained on the excel spreadsheet then they have contact details for the landlord. 

http://www.prtb.ie/index.htm

If its not you can contact them and they will try and obtain landlords details and send a letter requesting that they register, (this is meant to be done for each new tenancy) They can also mediate on behalf of 3rd parties if there is a dispute due to anti social behaviour but this is normally done when communication has broken down between the landlord. It might be worth checking with the local letting agents in the area in case they rented the house. 

My big concern would be if your correct and children are being left unattended, if you really were concerend about their welfare, I'd definitly talk to the community Garda and get some advice about how to proceed...

As for the satellite dishes, I saw a thread recently on www.boards.ie about illeagl satellite dishes in the accommoation section, might be worth checking it out so you know where you stand on this when discussing with landlord.

Really hope it gets resolved, stressful situation!


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## CCOVICH (21 May 2006)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



			
				fullerand said:
			
		

> * Immediately after moving in, they erected *three* large satellite dishes at the back of the house. One of these is over a metre across, and is right beside our back bedroom window. All look unsightly.



I'm not making this up-ridiculous as it sounds-but I recently heard something about non-Irish nationals having the right (under some EU legislation) to receive broadcasts from their own national broadcaster, thus allowing for a dish.  It seems ludicrous to me, and I hope it's not true, but I just thought I'd mention it.  Maybe someone else has info?


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## CCOVICH (21 May 2006)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*

Hah-I'm just after reading the ever so helpful response   you received from a Moderator on Boards.


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## oirish (21 May 2006)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



			
				CCOVICH said:
			
		

> Hah-I'm just after reading the ever so helpful response  you received from a Moderator on Boards.


 
possibly he works in sky digitals sound volume level testing room, kids department ?!! and used to answer the phones for eircom [ie soooooo helpful ??!] 

maybe he just has bad day

hope it all works out for you
and take care


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## fullerand (29 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*

I hate raising old threads, but I think it's appropriate in this case.

I'm the OP above, and I just thought I'd come back to say that 2.5 years after that post, we finally got a Determination Order from the PRTB today.  I'm so angry that it has taken that long to go through the process - meanwhile the issues described above continued unabated the whole time.  In fact they worsened to included throwing stones and spitting at us.

Let it be a warning to landlords to properly vet their tenants, and make sure you're fully versed with the Residential Tenancies Act.


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## dubgem (29 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*

Feel I have to post as it seems to me that bypassing a neighbourly chat in favour of immediate landlord interference seems an extreme initial reaction and I would say totally the wrong way to go. There's every chance you could reach a compromise with your neighbours if you approached them in a friendly manner first off.

You say there may be a language barrier but you really won't know until you talk to them yourself. Just because they speak their own language to each other doesn't mean they don't speak English as well - there are Somalis renting in my building and it was only when I got talking to one of them in the hallway that I discovered she speaks almost better English than I do.

Getting their landlord to talk to them about something you could easily have spoken to them about yourself (say, not having the TV on late at night in the bedroom that adjoins yours) is the best way to have a terrible relationship with your neighbours and a very stressful home.

Sure, if your initial approach doesn't improve things then it would make sense to approach their landlord, but at the moment you're getting stressed about things that your neighbours have no idea you're stressed about - you can't really blame them for not picking up on your concerns with their psychic powers, they can only make an effort to improve things if you talk to them about the situation.


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## S.L.F (29 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



dubgem said:


> Feel I have to post as it seems to me that bypassing a neighbourly chat in favour of immediate landlord interference seems an extreme initial reaction and I would say totally the wrong way to go. There's every chance you could reach a compromise with your neighbours if you approached them in a friendly manner first off.
> 
> You say there may be a language barrier but you really won't know until you talk to them yourself. Just because they speak their own language to each other doesn't mean they don't speak English as well - there are Somalis renting in my building and it was only when I got talking to one of them in the hallway that I discovered she speaks almost better English than I do.
> 
> ...



Or they would probably have been throwing stones and spitting at fullerand long before he made the complaint.

With some people there's no talking to.


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## dubgem (29 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



S.L.F said:


> Or they would probably have been throwing stones and spitting at fullerand long before he made the complaint.
> 
> With some people there's no talking to.


 
Er, what are you actually saying here?


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## ajapale (29 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



fullerand said:


> I hate raising old threads, but I think it's appropriate in this case.
> 
> I'm the OP above, and I just thought I'd come back to say that 2.5 years after that post, we finally got a Determination Order from the PRTB today.  I'm so angry that it has taken that long to go through the process - meanwhile the issues described above continued unabated the whole time.  In fact they worsened to included throwing stones and spitting at us.
> 
> Let it be a warning to landlords to properly vet their tenants, and make sure you're fully versed with the Residential Tenancies Act.



Thanks for the update fullerand.

Im moving this thread from "Homes & Gardens" folder to the "Property Investment" folder where it may be of interest to Landlords and Tenants alike.

aj
(moderator)


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## Complainer (29 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



fullerand said:


> I hate raising old threads, but I think it's appropriate in this case.
> 
> I'm the OP above, and I just thought I'd come back to say that 2.5 years after that post, we finally got a Determination Order from the PRTB today.  I'm so angry that it has taken that long to go through the process - meanwhile the issues described above continued unabated the whole time.  In fact they worsened to included throwing stones and spitting at us.


Fair play to you for getting back with an update. Can you confirm what this 'determination order' means now for the landlord and the tenant?


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## mathepac (29 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



dubgem said:


> Feel I have to post as it seems to me that bypassing a neighbourly chat in favour of immediate landlord interference seems an extreme initial reaction and I would say totally the wrong way to go.  ...


I believe, in the circumstances outlined, that OP acted appropriately by contacting the landlord and the PRTB.


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## fullerand (30 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



dubgem said:


> Feel I have to post as it seems to me that bypassing a neighbourly chat in favour of immediate landlord interference seems an extreme initial reaction and I would say totally the wrong way to go. There's every chance you could reach a compromise with your neighbours if you approached them in a friendly manner first off.



To clarify, I complained to the tenant for a full 2 months before contacting the landlord.  We jumped through hoops to try to get some decency out of these people - but as someone mentioned above there's simply no talking to some folk.


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## fullerand (30 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



Complainer said:


> Fair play to you for getting back with an update. Can you confirm what this 'determination order' means now for the landlord and the tenant?



The Determination Order is the final output of the PRTB dispute resolution process.  In this case it's a document that says the tenant must vacate the premises by a particular date.  If they don't comply they will be taken directly to the Circuit Court to enforce the order.


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## Complainer (30 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



fullerand said:


> The Determination Order is the final output of the PRTB dispute resolution process.  In this case it's a document that says the tenant must vacate the premises by a particular date.  If they don't comply they will be taken directly to the Circuit Court to enforce the order.


Thanks - Is the order directed at the landlord or the tenant?


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## fullerand (31 Oct 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



Complainer said:


> Thanks - Is the order directed at the landlord or the tenant?



Primarily at the tenant.


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## Bronte (3 Nov 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



fullerand said:


> Primarily at the tenant.


 It's great you came back to us with an update.  But I fear a tenant who has waited 2.5 years will probably ignore the determination order.  Is the PRTB going to pay for going to court?  This could take a long time yet.  Could you tell us more about the how the determination order came about, did the landlord not have to be involved etc.


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## fullerand (3 Nov 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



Bronte said:


> It's great you came back to us with an update. But I fear a tenant who has waited 2.5 years will probably ignore the determination order. Is the PRTB going to pay for going to court? This could take a long time yet. Could you tell us more about the how the determination order came about, did the landlord not have to be involved etc.



I'm afraid of that too.  I think the PRTB used to take non-compliant parties directly to court - however, in the Irish Times a few weeks ago (and in a cover letter which arrived with the Determination Order), they stated that "due to the increasing volume of cases coming before the PRTB, the board may not be in a position to or may in certain circumstances deem it not cost effective to prosecute the non compliant party".

So the PRTB probably wont take them to court - in that case it will be up to the landlord to do so (Circuit Court).

Fun stuff - and as you suggest could take a lot of time.


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## Bronte (3 Nov 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



fullerand said:


> I'm afraid of that too. I think the PRTB used to take non-compliant parties directly to court - however, in the Irish Times a few weeks ago (and in a cover letter which arrived with the Determination Order), they stated that "due to the increasing volume of cases coming before the PRTB, the board may not be in a position to or may in certain circumstances deem it not cost effective to prosecute the non compliant party".
> 
> So the PRTB probably wont take them to court - in that case it will be up to the landlord to do so (Circuit Court).
> 
> Fun stuff - and as you suggest could take a lot of time.


  You said the determination order was against the tenant.  Why would a landlord take a tenant to court if the tenant is paying the rent?  I had heard the PRTB were not taking all cases to court.  Determination order is not worth much than it seems.  It may be worth your while replying to the PRTB letter asking them to clarify the 'not be in a position' and 'not cost effective to prosecute' phrases.


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## LLDLY (16 Dec 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



dubgem said:


> Feel I have to post as it seems to me that bypassing a neighbourly chat in favour of immediate landlord interference seems an extreme initial reaction and I would say totally the wrong way to go. There's every chance you could reach a compromise with your neighbours if you approached them in a friendly manner first off.



I completely disagree, it seems quite obvious that these people wouldn't listen. Then they had stones thrown at them and being spat at just sums up the mentality of these people. I just hope that the landlord doesn't put bad tenants in again........................another 2 half years of hassle!

We had similar problems but decided to rent our house and buy a detached. We managed to get them evicted with help from neighbours who also complained to landlord.

Good luck for the future


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## LennyBriscoe (16 Dec 2008)

*Re: Problems with tenants next door*



fullerand said:


> I'm afraid of that too. I think the PRTB used to take non-compliant parties directly to court - however, in the Irish Times a few weeks ago (and in a cover letter which arrived with the Determination Order), they stated that "due to the increasing volume of cases coming before the PRTB, the board may not be in a position to or may in certain circumstances deem it not cost effective to prosecute the non compliant party".
> 
> So the PRTB probably wont take them to court - in that case it will be up to the landlord to do so (Circuit Court).
> 
> Fun stuff - and as you suggest could take a lot of time.


 
That to me is adequate proof that An Bord Snip should take action and remove the PRTB from existence! A lame duck.


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