# Leadership and fairness is required



## partnership (3 Oct 2010)

First of all let me say that we need a general election in order for a government to have a mandate to run the country.  The current government no longer have that mandate as nothing in their programme for government resembles what is happending now.

That said let's talk about leadership and fairness.  I call on the leaders of the parties to stand up and lead from the top.  First cut their own salaries and do away with the expense regime in particular where they get money for turning up to work.  If they don't sign in to the dail then they dont get paid have them under the same attendance management policy that they impleement in the public service.  Tell the public that they can no longer attend funerals or open supermarkets or all the other "supposed" work they do in their constituency, no more clinics where they write letters looking for medical cards for people they know don't qualify after all they were the ones who set the guidelines.  Do away with pensions while you are working let people take a case in court and delay it for ten years the way they can do in other cases.  Call in the heads of all the quangos and reduce their salary to 100k if they aren't happy then let them go and see them in court in ten years time.  
Do away with the ministerial cars for ex members of the dail and exisiting ones and put the garda drivers back on the street.  
Stop wasting money doing up their offices.
No more trips overseas unless absolutely necessary - if we ar ein crisis I am sure the other countrys would understand.
Use the hotels in Nama for td's to stay in at no cost when they are in Dublin rather than paying them expenses.
This might be a start


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## belview (3 Oct 2010)

Fully agree.

Leadership is essential at this time. Effective leadership is mainly about three things.

Having a vision - which is essentially about identifying the problem and selecting a workable solution and giving confidence and hope to the people that when the solution is implemented we will be in a better place.
Courage -  having the courage to face up to the problem and whatever vested interest groups that may be blocking the implementation of the agreed solution.
Bringing the people with you - this is the most important of all and involves daily communication with all levels of out society and most importantly leading by example.

To date we have been sadly let down by our leaders at all levels of Irish society who have failed to demonstrate any of these leadership behaviours.We have the capacity to sort out our current problems be we need our so called leaders to move from their current attitude of " I am here to represent XXXXXXX " to a position where they are prepared to do the best thing for the country.
Once this happens  at the top then I am confident that effective leaders will emerge at all levels of Irish society and begin to tackle and solve our problems


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## spreadsheet (4 Oct 2010)

Great. Totally agree.  Less talk more action needed right now and it might start getting people believing in the political system again.


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## SeanDivs (12 Oct 2010)

Again totally agree Partnership...and what really bugs me is this isn't being said enough. With all the interviews going on with all the "leaders" and "financial spokepeople", none of the interviewers are asking or pushing for this. Instead, we woke up this morning hearing they're targeting pensioners again!! This is just wrong

I was honestly thinking of writing to papers, radio stations to just highlight these facts that we all know. We've possibly some of the highest paid politicians on the planet (especially when including their 'expenses'). They take the longest holiday period (fully paid!!). Some have two pensions to look forward to (teachers and political for example). They've done very well from their "career" with multiple houses all over the place. I know there are a few city councillors (not TD's) in Galway that have 10+ properties!! Sure thats just wrong..

But not one of these "leaders" are willing to open their mouths and start cutting from the top. As said already, leadership is lacking. I wouldn't trust any of these cowboys/cowgirls to lead us out of this mess. They're all still concerned with buttering their own bread and minding their nest egg than running the country. There isnt one honest leader among them all - and thats including backbenchers and front benchers

How have we as a nation stayed so quiet? They've all done extremely well from the Celtic Tiger. Most of us ordinary workers saw a slight increase in wages but they're certainly cutting us to shreads now.

Is there any honest people willing to take on the mantle of leading us for half the salary? Bet theres thousands of good people on the dole who could - plenty of accountants for Finance dept, teachers for Education, Nurses and doctors for health!! 
I'm just sick of the whole lot of them (sorry for the rant!!)


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## onq (15 Oct 2010)

I'm a qualified architect of 20 years standing and well-versed in  matters of the environment, planning, housing strategies and council  nonsense.
I'll do Gormleys job for a quarter of his salary plus travel expenses to and from work, or half his salary and no expenses.

I'll include my link below normally reserved for the Sites Planning Self-Builds and Extensions forum.
I post it now to back up my above claims, albeit at the risk of being accused of touting for work.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## Purple (15 Oct 2010)

Having had some porsonal experience with ONQ's professional abilities I would back him for the job in a heartbeat (at the risk of being accused of helping him tout for business ).


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## runner (15 Oct 2010)

Yes, think it would be lovely to have a Minister called ONQ
Imagine the headline when he arrives on time
'Minister arrives ON Q'


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## Complainer (15 Oct 2010)

onq said:


> I'm a qualified architect of 20 years standing and well-versed in  matters of the environment, planning, housing strategies and council  nonsense.
> I'll do Gormleys job for a quarter of his salary plus travel expenses to and from work, or half his salary and no expenses.
> 
> I'll include my link below normally reserved for the Sites Planning Self-Builds and Extensions forum.
> ...


I'd hate to be seen to defend Gormley, but it is probably worth pointing out that there is a democratic system here. If you think you can do a better job, put yourself up for election, and let the people decide.


runner said:


> Imagine the headline when he arrives on time
> 'Minister arrives ON Q'


Beautiful.


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## Firefly (15 Oct 2010)

onq said:


> I'm a qualified architect of 20 years standing and well-versed in  matters of the environment, planning, housing strategies and council  nonsense.
> I'll do Gormleys job for a quarter of his salary plus travel expenses to and from work, or half his salary and no expenses.
> 
> I'll include my link below normally reserved for the Sites Planning Self-Builds and Extensions forum.
> ...




Things must be tough...an architect giving a fixed price?  You have to be happy with that Complainer


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## Jetblue (15 Oct 2010)

To go back to partnerships initial point of Leadership, it's Fine Gael and Enda Kenny that have really disappointed me over the last two years!
Having lived as the poor relation to Fianna Fail for the last 12 years it is now obvious that they are unwilling to propose making radical changes to pay, conditions, expenses, appointments to state boards etc etc. They seem to sense that their time is coming and that they are entitled to ride the gravy train as Fianna Fail has done. 

I can see a big swing back to Fianna fail when the election is called if Fine Gael don't get off their arses and radically differentiate themselves from the sleevins of Fianna Fail.

I'm betting on a Labour/Fianna Fail govt after the May election! Any takers?


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## shnaek (15 Oct 2010)

Jetblue said:


> To go back to partnerships initial point of Leadership, it's Fine Gael and Enda Kenny that have really disappointed me over the last two years!
> Having lived as the poor relation to Fianna Fail for the last 12 years it is now obvious that they are unwilling to propose making radical changes to pay, conditions, expenses, appointments to state boards etc etc. They seem to sense that their time is coming and that they are entitled to ride the gravy train as Fianna Fail has done.
> 
> I can see a big swing back to Fianna fail when the election is called if Fine Gael don't get off their arses and radically differentiate themselves from the sleevins of Fianna Fail.
> ...



I agree with all that. It amazes me too that people call FG "FF lite" when Labour are the real "FF lite", or to put it properly - FF is "Labour Lite".


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## Complainer (15 Oct 2010)

Jetblue said:


> I'm betting on a Labour/Fianna Fail govt after the May election! Any takers?





shnaek said:


> I agree with all that. It amazes me too that people call FG "FF lite" when Labour are the real "FF lite", or to put it properly - FF is "Labour Lite".



How many times....

Listen to his interview from 28th Sept this week, about 7:40 into the interview;

[broken link removed]

"[Deep sigh] The Labour Party position is crystal clear. We are not going into Govt with Fianna Fail after the next general election. We're not going to put Fianna Fail back into Govt in any shape or form after the next general election. And incidentally, the Labour Party is the only party that has categorically ruled out going into Govt with Fianna Fail after the next election".

Is there any ambiguity there? Why don't you ask FG about whether THEY will go into coalition with FF when Labour comes out as the largest party?


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## csirl (15 Oct 2010)

> I'm betting on a Labour/Fianna Fail govt after the May election! Any takers?


 
Sorry Complainer - I have to agree with the above. I sense that Labour will do anything to get into power and FF will do anything to retain it. A match made in heaven, and in my opinion, as both parties look after large swathes of vested interests, probably the worst outcome that the country can achieve.


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## soy (16 Oct 2010)

Unfortunately our political system is not capable of delivering the expertiese that we need to run the country.
At this point the single most benefical thing we could do is a radical overhaul of our political system. We need a lot less politicians and we need a system that gets away from electing gombeen councilers. 
Only then will we have any way out of this mess. However I cannot see the politicans ever voting for this as it would mean an end to the careers for most of them.


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## Complainer (16 Oct 2010)

csirl said:


> I sense that Labour will do anything to get into power and FF will do anything to retain it.


A lot of the Labour/FF stories are coming from incandescent FGers who have just realised that their best case scenario may well be as junior partners in Govt. This is headwrecking for them, and they will do anything to scare people away from Labour.


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## rogeroleary (16 Oct 2010)

*Democracy.......where?*



Complainer said:


> I'd hate to be seen to defend Gormley, but it is probably worth pointing out that there is a democratic system here. If you think you can do a better job, put yourself up for election, and let the people decide.
> 
> Beautiful.


 
Not so sure about that C. I don't recall seeing any calls for madates to guarantee €480 billion? Or hand out outrageous payoffs to Paddy Neary / Rody FAS who were negligent at best while they were feeding from the trough. In fact thats the problem with this country - there's a serious democratic deficit here.

Roger


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## sunrock (16 Oct 2010)

Posters still haven`t got it. The ff government and their cronies in elite circles are going to hang on to their perks as long as possible. ANY CUTS TO THEM will be torturously defended. As for what passes for leadership is day to day crisis management and PR.
They are however resigned to making the vast majority of the public to pay thru` the nose for their mistakes.Above all else they want to maintain all the differentials in the pecking order hierachy in the public service and the public purse and of course no one loses their job or has to jobshare with the unemployed.
If they were serious they would slash public sector wages to their private equivalent in todays market . There is no need to be paying anyone more than 100k and a lot less would do.
They are hitting the vulnerable..the young qualified unemployed and hoping they will emigrate.It really is an "I am all right jack" policy.

Of course they will probably be in opposition after the next election where they will provide robust opposition to the new government.
That new government is likely to be a fine gael /lab coalition with fg the largest party.
The figures have been worked out in another thread and labour haven`t the numbers to be the largest party or larger than fg. This is because FF will retain their core vote so depriving labour of the seats they hope to pick up.
Labour if they wanted could go into coalition with FF ,but I don`t think it will happen.
I was watching the late late last night and Brian Crowley ff mep was thinking of going for president.He is in a wheelchair after an accident and is a very charismatic and friendly and a huge votegetter.
The thing is that the public elect people because of their personality and the politicians are so obcessed with delivering for their constituents to get reelected that is it any surprise that we get bad decisions and bad government at the top. 
Also people vote for politicians who have done favors down the years or their father and grandfather has done the favors.FF politicians know they can call on a lot of people who had favors done for them and even as Mr Crowley slyly mentioned a lot of people were helped out in the last 10 years.
Onq will be up against that. Even George Lee who got elected because people thought that he would have proper policies in place couldn`t hack it when he got elected.


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## ontour (16 Oct 2010)

partnership said:


> The current government no longer have that mandate as nothing in their programme for government resembles what is happending now.



I am always baffled by what people judge as a mandate.  Does this mean that opinion polls are on favour of the government?  No where in the world is a programme for government a real commitment to deliver, look at the Lib Dems in the UK.  If there were 500,000 people protesting on the streets of Dublin, there would be a better case for the current government to leave office.



partnership said:


> Tell the public that they can no longer attend funerals or open supermarkets or all the other "supposed" work they do in their constituency, no more clinics where they write letters looking for medical cards for people they know don't qualify after all they were the ones who set the guidelines.



You are absolutely correct about the need for politicians to take significant pay cuts to set an example.  They should stop paying Senators altogether.  There is a fundamental problem with TDs spending time on local issues but the fact is that if they do not do that they will not get re-elected.  A couple of months ago I was listening to a TD talking about his top priority being some roads in Mayo when he gets in to government in the near future.  Anyone who is not pushing for an election now is labeled as  FF supporter.  The fact of the matter is that many people who think that Cowen is doing a horrendous job don't think that the alternative is any better.




partnership said:


> Stop wasting money doing up their offices. No more trips overseas unless absolutely necessary - if we ar ein crisis I am sure the other countrys would understand.  Use the hotels in Nama for td's to stay in at no cost when they are in Dublin rather than paying them expenses.



Doing up offices is not a waste of money, maintaining offices and making them fit for purpose is necessary.  The problem is the cost, all across the public sector  there are so many cases of bad value for money and that needs to be resolved.  The cost of overseas trips is not crippling our economy,  we need to maintain strong international links using senior politicians to open doors for Irish business.  

The NAMA hotel suggestion is flawed as the hotels are not in NAMA, the loans are.  The company with the management contract would get the room rates from the guest.  This would also result in penalizing non-NAMA related hotels.  If you have a well run hotel, politicians will not stay in your hotel, is that fair?

The main issue is that you proclaim the need for 'fairness' but what is fairness.  Is paying more children's allowance for the third child fair?  Is it fair that a person on minimum wage could take home nearly as much on social welfare?  Is it fair that trade unions get large travel funds from the state and the same unions block flexibility in the civil service that could dramatically improve services?


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## markowitzman (17 Oct 2010)

forget leadership and fairness.....
elephant in room is public sector and therein is where cuts required.
simple question for incoming government......have you the balls to tackle this?
if not........
IMF PLEASE!


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## Complainer (17 Oct 2010)

rogeroleary said:


> Not so sure about that C. I don't recall seeing any calls for madates to guarantee €480 billion? Or hand out outrageous payoffs to Paddy Neary / Rody FAS who were negligent at best while they were feeding from the trough. In fact thats the problem with this country - there's a serious democratic deficit here.


Yet again, I'm not going to in any way defend Gormley/Neary/Rody etc, but the fact remains, that anyone who reckons they can do a better job are very welcome to stand before the public.


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## rogeroleary (17 Oct 2010)

*Another option?*

and that's fair enough C....... but I think it's very difficult for someone to break into the system on their own and once your sign up with a party you have to go along with the whole self perpetuating cycle.

What I would really like to see is the Dail being paid by performance. Therefore the current crisis when we have a huge deficit that we have to close.......TDs are on something like €92k basic plus secretarial allowances etc and load of expenses with Ministers on probably double that and Biffo has another large dollop on top again.

If the target has to be cutting €4 bn a year for the next 4 years, then why don't we do what real employers do an link people pay to their results? So if the TDs collectively deliver the €4bn a year by consensus then they keep their packages. If they don't meet the goal in year 1 they drop 10% across the board, same in years 2,3 & 4. Surely that would ensure that the Dail had to work through the various party goals to achieve the national interest so we can start growing again.....

That said I still think we have about 100 TDs too many but hell.............


Roger


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## partnership (17 Oct 2010)

ontour said:


> I am always baffled by what people judge as a mandate. Does this mean that opinion polls are on favour of the government? No where in the world is a programme for government a real commitment to deliver, look at the Lib Dems in the UK. If there were 500,000 people protesting on the streets of Dublin, there would be a better case for the current government to leave office.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Re Mandate - I do not go on opinion polls but on the general sense in the country.  As I stated their programme for government said nothing about bailing out banks or creating NAMA.  If we let them away with doing things like this you open the doors to an party putting a programme to the people at election and getting in and doing differently!
Re doing up of offices - there is no need for any politician when he gets an office to spend thousands on curtains alone!

In general let all the parties lay out their stall and let the people decide.  One question I would ask is if the figures add up that the only parties that can make gov is FF/Lab or FF/FG who will be in gov - I agree it would be FF/Lab and they will winge we have to cos thats the way the numbers add up which was their excuse in the past.
People should vote for a government not a local TD to do the roads.
Re the public service comments - plenty of people turned up their noses during the boom years at public sector jobs.  The public sector found it hard to recruit lower grades because people were getting more in the private sector so dont try to penalise the people who took the jobs and did not have the perks that people in the private sector had over the last number of years.
Another suggestion in this time of crisi is to put everything on the table including the corporation tax - why should that not be looked at?


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## ontour (17 Oct 2010)

partnership said:


> Re Mandate - I do not go on opinion polls but on the general sense in the country.



I would love to know how you have guaged the sense in the country, you must have clocked up a few mile doing that.  If you are basing your view on the media, you have to understand that they have an agenda, bad news sells.  Also I would contend that the sense in the country was great during the boom times when everything went mad.  Running the country is like being a parent, sometimes the kids won't like what you tell them but it is still in their best interest.



partnership said:


> The public sector found it hard to recruit lower grades because people were getting more in the private sector so dont try to penalise the people who took the jobs and did not have the perks that people in the private sector had over the last number of years.


 Your comment is correct about low paid civil servants but they are the exception rather than the rule.  The majority of civil service jobs are not low paid, but I accept the classification of low paid is a matter of opinion.




partnership said:


> Another suggestion in this time of crisi is to put everything on the table including the corporation tax - why should that not be looked at?



You should not touch corporation tax because the IT, Pharma and international financial services sectors are based on mainly US MNCs investing here and this is significantly biased by the low corporation tax.  This is the knowledge economy.  Many indigenous companies are formed by people who have gained valuable international experience and use it to create Irish companies.  The other reasons to leave corporation tax alone is that these large companies can easily and quickly move their country for tax purposes so you would lose some of the '12%'s that we are getting now


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## onq (17 Oct 2010)

Purple said:


> Having had some porsonal experience with ONQ's professional abilities I would back him for the job in a heartbeat (at the risk of being accused of helping him tout for business ).



(bows)

You're too kind Purple.

Complainer, I wasn't looking for a mandate, I offered to do a job competently for very little.

Looking at the Banks and Government it is clear that neither capitalism nor the democratic mandate delivers competent people into power.

Most of my time will be ensuring that the government departments actually spend their capital allocations and arguing in cabinet that money is not skimped on third level education needed to ensure Ireland can compete in the next decade full spectrum.

ONQ.


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