# Residents committee want to set up Ltd co -why~?



## rania (1 May 2012)

estate is finally being 'taken' over by council-purposes of light/sewers/liabilty etc.
residents committee collects 100 per house(46 houses)for grass cutting
residents committee still want to set up limited co
why?i have asked and get no proper answer
to force people to pay fees?
but will they have to cover the things council now cover?
will they have the right to dictate to householders? 
any views welcome


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## markpb (1 May 2012)

rania said:


> residents committee still want to set up limited co
> why?i have asked and get no proper answer



Perhaps it's to limit their liability in the case of the RA running into financial problems or being sued? I've never heard of it happening before but it does seem to make a small amount of sense.



> to force people to pay fees



Being a company doesn't make any difference when it comes to forcing people to pay. If there's no management company already in existence, there's (probably) nothing forcing people to pay other than caring about their neighbourhood.


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## rania (1 May 2012)

can they form a ltd company without the compliance of the majority of residents?
they want to be able to force payment
seems mad to me,can 5 people legally bind 100 others?will they have any legal standing


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## mathepac (2 May 2012)

I agree with you, it sounds like a crazy idea to me.


rania said:


> can they form a ltd company without the compliance of the majority of residents? ...


"They" (the committee of the RA?) can do as they wish as a group, but that in no way commits others to their course of action.





rania said:


> ...they want to be able to force payment ...


As pointed out already, they're in no better or worse situation via a ltd. company than as an informal RA. 





rania said:


> ... seems mad to me,can 5 people legally bind 100 others? ...


Not a hope - megalomania at its worst IMHO if that's what they are implying.


rania said:


> ...will they have any legal standing


If they go ahead they will have legal status as a non-trading ltd. co. but so what?  the country is full of them.

If you are concerned, take a straw poll of your neighbours and jointly draft and sign a letter stating that you don't agree with the committee's plans to form and register a limited company and that you resign from the RA. Tell them if they go ahead they do not represent you (the signatories). Tell them that the money in the RA's kitty cannot be used for this purpose and request an accounting

It may make for difficult relationships with some of your neighbours, but no worse than if they go ahead I suspect


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## Guns N Roses (2 May 2012)

rania said:


> residents committee collects 100 per house(46 houses)for grass cutting


 
Your Resident Committee will have to continue collecting money for grass cutting as County Councils do not cut grass in Non Council Housing Estates?

I'm not sure why they need to set up a Limited Company to do so.


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## lantus (2 May 2012)

I would imagine that all they need to do is get public liability insurance to cover against damages and losses from any activites like grass cutting they are involved in.

They should also hae a good waiver and disclaimer for anyone involved in such activities in case of injury to protect against claims.

Retrospectivley setting up a ltd company in thinking it will be like a management company is not true. Proper OMC's are created at the time of the estate being built and ALL the lease and contract agreements make mention of the OMC and payment of fee's. All owners agree to this when they buy the home. There is no way to change everyone's lease after the fact. I'm sure they know this?!?


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## rania (2 May 2012)

the grass cutter has his own public liability insuarance
no mention by residents of it being to do with the safety/liabilty end of things-only to legally force residents to pay
lantus -they do not know this-re setting up after fact
i guessed as much but i am scouring interent to find something that says to this fact-any idea where i could find this in black and white?
appreaciate your time all


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## serotoninsid (3 May 2012)

lantus said:


> Retrospectivley setting up a ltd company in thinking it will be like a management company is not true. Proper OMC's are created at the time of the estate being built and ALL the lease and contract agreements make mention of the OMC and payment of fee's. All owners agree to this when they buy the home. There is no way to change everyone's lease after the fact. I'm sure they know this?!?


It's regrettable that this is the case.  Currently in an estate whereby only 50% of us contribute.  Very frustrating - and when consider that this is most likely the norm in estates up and down the country - it's a relevant issue.  Could there be any legislative change to bring this about?


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## ajapale (3 May 2012)

rania said:


> estate is finally being 'taken' over by council-purposes of light/sewers/liabilty



The council will take over roads, footpaths, water, sewers, storm drains and public lighting every thing else (grass, trees, landscape maintenance, boundary fences/walls) remains the responsibility of the management company which was established at the inception of the estate.

I would hazard a guess that this original company is defunct and the the residents association is trying to regularise the situation by establishing a new management company. I imagine that each house owner in the estate would own 1/100th of the management company.

As mentioned above by another poster the RA is trying to limit its liablility in the event of a claim against it in relation to the areas for which is potentially responsible.

If you are concerned you should speak to your solicitor or flac at citizens advice.



rania said:


> can they form a ltd company without the compliance of the majority of residents?



When you bought your house was there any mention of a management company? Most recent developments there is agreement the house owner owns a share of a mgt company and that the Local Authority will never be asked to take over grass, trees, landscape maintenance, boundary fences/walls ect.


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## lantus (3 May 2012)

So it sounds like the grass cutter is a third party paid to do the job which is fine. Even so it is generally recommended that an RA obtains PL insurance to cover any of it's activites whether they be meetings or anything where someone may be hurt accidentally or otherwise.

What else does the RA do? Being a Ltd co will incur CRO costs from registering directors and require them to submit accounts anually. All of which will need to be covered by the annual fee.

Although I dont have the docs to hand I can clarify that you would need a home owner to basically have their lease document for the property re written to include for an OMC and the required payment of an annual fee. It's highly unlikley anyone would agree to such a change and the costs involved through hiring solicitors would be massive. I'm not even sure it's lawful unless everyone in the estate agrees.

The RA wont own the common areas so they wont have deeds of that land. Cant see any benefit at all.

I would ask the committee to explain their thinking and reasoning behind this. Maybe they just like the idea of becoming company directors?

In relation to contributions you will never get everyone paying (we have an OMC and some apartment owners have not made a single payment for 7 years!) Firstly its voluntary and so people can easily opt out. Renters will always feel less inclined to give because they tend not to see the area as something they need to invest in as their stay is temporary in the same way they wouldn't put a new kitchen in.

The best way is to engage with everyone in the community in a +ve manner and try to show how a donation is a +ve thing. In these times many peope may be unable to make such a payment. Would a part payment be acceptable or paying over afew months instead of a one off payment. Set up a facebook group to stay in touch without the need for a newsletter as often. Organise community events, run meetings, try to galvanise people about issues in the area that affect them. It takes time....


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## ajapale (3 May 2012)

You need to find out the name of the original _*Owners Management Company*_ (OMC) and its current status. What entity currently owns the common areas in the estate?

I imagine the existing RA ctte is made up of ordinary decent residents who wish to do right on behalf of all the residents. I reckon they too are grappling with the complexities of the situation and are unsure of the next steps. Imputing motives such as megalomania or extracting money is unhelpful in my opinion.

The committee should consult with a solicitor or at the very least consult with FLAC and gain an understanding of whats going on. They should then communicate with the wider membership explaining the rationale. In my opinion the best way to do this is one-to-one and not at a highly charged public meeting.


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## lantus (3 May 2012)

ajapale said:


> You need to find out the name of the original _*Owners Management Company*_ (OMC) and its current status. What entity currently owns the common areas in the estate?
> 
> I imagine the existing RA ctte is made up of ordinary decent residents who wish to do right on behalf of all the residents. I reckon they too are grappling with the complexities of the situation and are unsure of the next steps. Imputing motives such as megalomania or extracting money is unhelpful in my opinion.
> 
> The committee should consult with a solicitor or at the very least consult with FLAC and gain an understanding of whats going on. They should then communicate with the wider membership explaining the rationale. In my opinion the best way to do this is one-to-one and not at a highly charged public meeting.


 
Your assuming that the OP's estate has or had an OMC when it was set up. This is doubtful as the developer would likley of been running it since it's inception and they are generally very good at charging and collecting money. Can the OP confirm this at all?

Soliciters are good but IMHO can use up a lot of money to tell you things you allready know. 'Certain' committee members really enjoy visits to sol's because it makes them feel v,important. Best to get a handle on this activity unless your sure you will need it.

So......Does the estate have or has it had an OMC at any point? How old is the estate? Is it JUST houses are are there apartments and commercial units as well? try searching on the CRO for your estate name it may reveal it's existence as a company allready.


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## ajapale (3 May 2012)

lantus said:


> Your assuming that the OP's estate has or had an OMC when it was set up.


 I think thats a fair assumption if the estate has been built in the last 10 years or so.



lantus said:


> Soliciters are good but IMHO can use up a lot of money to tell you  things you allready know.


Perhaps but FLAC does not cost anything.



lantus said:


> 'Certain' committee members really enjoy  visits to sol's because it makes them feel v,important.


As I stated above imputing motive is not likely to be a very helpful approach to the problem. Perhaps the OP could volunteer their services to the ctte and investigate the situation on their behalf?



lantus said:


> Does the estate have or has it had an OMC at any point? How old  is the estate? Is it JUST houses are are there apartments and commercial  units as well?


All good questions the answers to which should point the OP and fellow residents in the right direction.



lantus said:


> Try searching on the CRO for your estate name it may  reveal it's existence as a company allready.


Very often the name of the company bears no relation to the name of the estate, but it is worth a try. The name of the OMC may be on the registration deeds of the properties. You could also check the planning records in you local planning office for mention of an OMC or the entity that owns the open spaces?


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## rania (3 May 2012)

to clarify
no omc
has been in hands of developer
in process of council taking it from developer
i understand grass cutting is not council responsibility
all houses,no apartments,no commerical units
estate about 7/8 year old
no co with estate name 
privately owned by developer now going to council.
we signed nothing to effect when buying house about managment companies,nothing at all

i can see no logic only great costs to set up residents as limited company and i contacted nca and they did not know either the legality of setting an omc after the fact where there has been none before,but honestly who would sign one at this stage?


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## ajapale (3 May 2012)

rania said:


> i contacted nca.



Whats nca?

Who is the registered owner of the open spaces?

Councils will only take over roads, footpaths, street lights, water, sewers and storm drains, they will not take over open spaces, boundaries, trees landscaping etc etc.

Have you contacted citizens advice or FLAC? I have found them very helpful in this matter.

Have you checked with planning?


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## mathepac (4 May 2012)

ajapale said:


> Whats nca? ...


http://www.nca.ie/


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## ajapale (4 May 2012)

Thanks Mathpac,



> *The National Consumer Agency (NCA)* is a statutory body established by  the Irish Government in May 2007 to enforce consumer law and promote  consumer rights.



aj


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