# Not declaring all money in Means test. Implications?



## Cluless68 (29 Jun 2011)

Hi everyone. What a great site.

My know it all niece recently applied for Job Seekers Allowance, which is means tested. She listed her AIB accounts as her savings/assets etc. She did not list the money in a Bank of Ireland account that was recently left to her by her grandmother to pay for a university course that she will be doing next year. The will states specifically that the money is to be used for educational purposes only. The account is in my niece and the solicitors name. He will only release funds from it when the time comes for her course fees to be paid. She does not have access to the money to go off and go on a spending spree, or even pay her rent for example, so she does not consider it to be "hers". Can she get in trouble for this? I told her to include it, but you know how kids are. They think they know it all. Can SW track any other savings or deposits that she may have in banks other than the one that she listed on her JA allowance application? Thanks.


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## wbbs (29 Jun 2011)

Does all the money total more than 20k?


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## Cluless68 (29 Jun 2011)

Yes. It is about 50,00K.


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## wbbs (29 Jun 2011)

Interesting one so, would imagine she should declare it, but as you say she has no access to it.   Maybe one of the social welfare experts here will answer and guide you.


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## eastbono (29 Jun 2011)

The money is hers and should have been declared to the sw inspector.

Capital	Weekly means assessed
First €20,000	Nil
Next €10,000	€1 per €1,000
Next €10,000	€2 per €1,000
Balance (€40,000 +)	€4 per €1,000

I have copied and pasted the above rates of means from capital. She really should go back and declare this. She is actually committing sw fraud. From these calculations she would have means of €90 against her. I know she doesnt have access to it to use at will but the money is still hers.  As an aside €50,000 is a lot to have for college, she will not have to pay fees...can the money be used for her rent while she is in college. If it is only to be used for college then she will be in college for a long time. Surely the money can also be used for any living costs associated with college e.g. rent, food etc.


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## Cluless68 (29 Jun 2011)

Hi eastbono, thanks for that. Her being accused of SW fraud is what we are afraid of. The course she is doing is not in Ireland, hence the steep price tag for it. The money can't not be used for sundry expenses while she is in university. Her grandmothers will was very specific about that. It is to be used for for tuition expenses only. The solicitor is being a real stickler about that.


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## eastbono (29 Jun 2011)

She really does need to declare it.  If she does return to Ireland after her studies and needs to claim a welfare payment alarm bells will ring as to how she paid for this university course.


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## Cluless68 (30 Jun 2011)

Yes, I am in total agreement there. Her mother called into the SW office yesterday to clear things up, but they would not talk to her about her daughters case due to data protection legislation. Ridiculous. Her daughter is away for the next 10 days and can't do it herself. Getting back to my original question, can SW find out the info for themselves while she is away? How long does it usually take for them to come to a decision? Is it likely they will do so before she gets back, and she can go in herself and clear things up?


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## Ildánach (30 Jun 2011)

It will depend on who actually owns the money.  It sounds like the money is held on trust for the niece, in which case she is the beneficial owner, but the legal owner is the Trustee.

Here is what the Department's guidelines say about trusts, which essentially are treated in the same way as pensions.  http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/meansassess.aspx



> (e) Pension Funds, Trust funds etc. owned by the claimant. Pension Funds
> The value of a pension fund is only accessible for means when a  person has access to the pension fund. The rules of a pension scheme  will determine what and when benefits are payable from the scheme.
> Any benefits in the form of a regular payment or a lump sum payment  will be accessed as means.
> Regular pension payments will be treated as income for means  purposes. The value of any cash otherwise available from a pension fund  will be assessed on the basis of the capital valuation of that fund.
> ...



But the bottom line is that this should be declared, only if it is declared can the Department apply their rules.  Withholding the information would be considered fraud.  Declaring the information may well not result in any additional deduction from payment.


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## Cluless68 (30 Jun 2011)

Thanks Ildanach. To my knowledge, the money is in a current account in the Bank of Ireland that is in the names of the solicitor and my niece. There is talk of moving it to another form of account that will earn some interest on the money, but as of now, that has not happened. I am in complete agreement with you all that she made a mistake and that the money should be declared. What most concerns her mother and I now is the next 10 days, and what may happen in the Dept of SW while my niece is away. Can they find out about the account on their own and are they likely to do so in 10 days? If anyone can shed any light on that, I'd be very grateful.


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## iscritto (30 Jun 2011)

Where is she that she can't make a phone call ... even just to allow sw talk to her mother.

"Her mother called into the SW office yesterday to clear things up, but they would not talk to her about her daughters case due to data protection legislation. Ridiculous"

You wouldn't think that if someone called up sw, said they were her mother and got lots of personal info on her. Data protection is there to protect us all.


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## Cluless68 (30 Jun 2011)

Fair enough so, but what harm would it do for the woman in the SW office to listen to her mother, and then put a note on the application that said " Woman came into office today claiming to be applicants mother. Wanted to advise us that her daughter left out information that is pertinent to her Job Seekers Allowance application regarding her means. According to her mother, the daughter has over 50,000 in current account to be used for her on going education. Check with applicant and Bank of Ireland about this at the earliest opportunity. "

What harm could that do? My sister in law was trying to give information, not get it. This may be yet another Job Seekers application to an SW employee. For my niece and her mother it is the difference between a denied claim and even worse, an accusation of SW fraud. I won't even go on about my sister in laws actions potentially saving the state a lot of money, as opposed to costing them.


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## pansyflower (30 Jun 2011)

> Where is she that she can't make a phone call ... even just to allow sw talk to her mother.



....or write a letter?


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## Cluless68 (30 Jun 2011)

My niece is in Africa on a charity volunteer mission that was planned long before this Job Seekers Allowance drama kicked off. Phone calls to home and internet access is very limited. A letter to Ireland will take longer to get here than she herself will in 10 days time.


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## Guest105 (1 Jul 2011)

Cluless68 said:


> My niece is in Africa on a charity volunteer mission that was planned long before this Job Seekers Allowance drama kicked off. Phone calls to home and internet access is very limited. A letter to Ireland will take longer to get here than she herself will in 10 days time.


 

Your niece can't make an application for Job seekers allowance while she is out of the country.  She is not currently available and looking for work if she is in Africa.


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## Ildánach (1 Jul 2011)

There's nothing that anyone else can do for this person, unless they want to report her to the authorities.  She'll have to sort it out when she gets back.

If she hasn't told them about being out of the State, then this too constitutes welfare fraud, although you are allowed two weeks holidays as long as you tell them beforehand.


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## partnership (19 Jul 2011)

In answer to your question about whether they can find out about the account in the next 10 days - the answer is no unless someone tells them ie her mother and they decide to investigate.
As the money is in trust for a specific purpose I would be inclined to do either of 2 things
one declare the money and let them decide - looking at the post on pensions/trust this may not be a problem
Say nothing - if anything does come back i feel she would have a legitimate argument about not having access to the money which can be backed up by the solicter in question.
On balance I would suggest saying nothing


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