# 11 men to dig a trench!



## in the mire (1 May 2012)

Out walking last week, best not to say where (village of famous castle) as I would not like to get people into trouble. 

The council were digging shallow trenches every 200 yards or so to allow water flow off the road ( road not flooded) anyway I counted 8 men some leaning on their shovels looking at a JCB digging the trench, In amongst the men was the local council engineer chatting on the phone whom I just know to see, There were two trucks parked on the road before and after the JCB with their warning lights on to warn on coming traffic (understandable, busy main road) and a driver in each truck. So that's 10 council workers and 1 digger driver, Say each man was on 20euro per hour and the contracted JCB at 30 euro/hr thats 230euro per hour, I watched them for a few minutes and I estimate 2 trenches an hour were been dug (if it was a sub contractor on a fixed price job then it would be 4 trenches an hr)

 I took a picture with my phone to show my friends for a laugh (seriously).

My question is, Who organizes the men to do their daily work etc, I though it was the council engineer. Maybe I dont expect a man to dig or clean out a shallow trench but could they have other work to do and leave the JCB work away with safety bollards on the road. 

This would be a perfect example of wasted money and unproductive labour organisation. I work in a factory and there would be questions asked about why people are standing around doing nothing.


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## sustanon (1 May 2012)

how much do you pay your factory workers?


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## in the mire (1 May 2012)

I am an employee, I earn about the same


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## sustanon (1 May 2012)

Maybe you should work for the council.


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## oldtimer (1 May 2012)

I know what you are saying and this is going on all over the country. Last March three council workmen started making a bus stop just down the road from my house. They start at 8am but their supervisor starts at 9am so the first hour is spent chatting. They have a tea break from 10.30 to 11am and go for lunch 1pm to 2pm. They depart each evening at 4pm. They are a long way from finished.  I reckon a private company would have the work done in a week. Just remember your €100 household charge will be spent on these type of projects.


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## sustanon (1 May 2012)

Council workers have ALWAYS worked like this... you get what you vote for kids.


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## Guest105 (1 May 2012)

in the mire said:


> and the contracted JCB at 30 euro/hr



What planet are you on, a contracted JCB driver is most likely on 70 or 80 euro an hour if not more, these guys don't come cheap.


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## d2x2 (1 May 2012)

Letting off steam?


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## mathepac (1 May 2012)

What were council workers from Blarney doing working in Bunratty?


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## postman pat (1 May 2012)

i hope there was no hassle in the castle


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## Leper (2 May 2012)

OOOOOOOOOOh! . . . . . . . . Has Ireland's youth and vibrant yuppies sank to the levels of taking pictures of council workers? What next? . . . . Taping them to have a laugh at what they were saying! 

Great to be Judge, Jury and Executioner.  I wonder how others would react if pictures were taken of them without permission.


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## allie12 (2 May 2012)

This seems to be the norm, a couple of month ago a JCB & driver were cutting a verge (2 kms) and it took the full week- but most of the time you passed the JCB was parked up with the driver having a snooze! 

Another guy was painting signs in an estate beside us, he painted one sign a day! 

Seriously and the govenment want us to pay all sorts of taxes/charges yet they won't get their own house in order?


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## The_Banker (2 May 2012)

in the mire said:


> Out walking last week, best not to say where (village of famous castle) as I would not like to get people into trouble.
> 
> The council were digging shallow trenches every 200 yards or so to allow water flow off the road ( road not flooded) anyway I counted 8 men some leaning on their shovels looking at a JCB digging the trench, In amongst the men was the local council engineer chatting on the phone whom I just know to see, There were two trucks parked on the road before and after the JCB with their warning lights on to warn on coming traffic (understandable, busy main road) and a driver in each truck. So that's 10 council workers and 1 digger driver, Say each man was on 20euro per hour and the contracted JCB at 30 euro/hr thats 230euro per hour, I watched them for a few minutes and I estimate 2 trenches an hour were been dug (if it was a sub contractor on a fixed price job then it would be 4 trenches an hr)
> 
> ...


 

You should have had a word with the overseer. He obviously wasnt doing his job.


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## Knuttell (2 May 2012)

Around where I live its quite normal to see a small refuse truck pull up along side a public rubbish bin,the driver to hop out,take the full plastic bag out,tie it off at the top,replace it with a new liner,leave the full bag of rubbish beside the bin and drive off...the next day another similar truck will pull up and throw it in the back and drive off.

You really could not make this stuff up,take a bow Fingal CC.


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## micmclo (2 May 2012)

Knuttell said:


> Around where I live its quite normal to see a small refuse truck pull up along side a public rubbish bin,the driver to hop out,take the full plastic bag out,tie it off at the top,replace it with a new liner,leave the full bag of rubbish beside the bin and drive off...the next day another similar truck will pull up and throw it in the back and drive off.



Job demarcation

Probably been going on for so long that any attempts to change it will be met with resistance


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## Knuttell (2 May 2012)

I think Unions are important and serve a function,up to a point however its stuff like this that really needs to be sorted out and if this means tackling the Unions head on with it then so be it,we just cannot afford this level of stupidity any more.


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## thedaras (2 May 2012)

Ahh come on guys and gals, its the fault of the banks/bondholders/Government/management...In the meantime two quotes come to mind:




> It is not necessary to change.  Survival is not mandatory


.  ~W. Edwards Deming




> The man who looks for security, even in the mind, is like a man who would chop off his limbs in order to have artificial ones which will give him no pain or trouble.


  ~Henry Miller


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## The_Banker (2 May 2012)

thedaras said:


> Ahh come on guys and gals, its the fault of the banks/bondholders/Government/management...In the meantime two quotes come to mind:
> 
> 
> . ~W. Edwards Deming
> ...


 

Another quote that springs to mind....

I will work harder...

Boxer (Animal Farm)

And we all know what happened to him.


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## ajapale (2 May 2012)

in the mire said:


> ...Anyway I counted 8 men some leaning on their shovels looking at a JCB digging the trench.



Eight men sounds excessive all right but perhaps this gang was part of an Community Employment detail?

The activity described sounds like the construction of "_*water tables*_" these are channels cut into the ditch to allow drainage of the carriage way. It is essential that these are maintained prior to periods of heavy rain to avoid flooding and/or damage to the road surface.


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## Chris (3 May 2012)

I had a water leak outside my home last year and it took 8 guys two days to to dig a 5 feet deep whole 3 foot by 6 foot long. One of the guys, the driver of the pickup van never once got out of the van the whole time. In addition, 2 men kept coming and going, taking a look, having a cigarette and a chat and then going off again for half an hour. At any given time there were two guys digging while the rest stood around. You'd think they would take turns for their breaks, since obviously 8 men would not be able to dig at the same time. But of course that would have meant making the most efficient use of resources, and would have avoided coming back on a Saturday to finish off the job for weekend pay.


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## gianni (3 May 2012)

oldtimer said:


> I know what you are saying and this is going on all over the country. Last March three council workmen started making a bus stop just down the road from my house. They start at 8am but their supervisor starts at 9am so the first hour is spent chatting. They have a tea break from 10.30 to 11am and go for lunch 1pm to 2pm. They depart each evening at 4pm. They are a long way from finished.  I reckon a private company would have the work done in a week. Just remember your €100 household charge will be spent on these type of projects.



A half hour coffee break and a 1 hour lunch break... pretty standard in most jobs that I've worked over the past 20 years. Do you follow them at 4pm to see if they are going home ? Perhaps they return to there depot to return equipment before finishing up their working day ?


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## Delboy (3 May 2012)

cashier said:


> What planet are you on, a contracted JCB driver is most likely on 70 or 80 euro an hour if not more, these guys don't come cheap.



30e an hr is probably very close to the mark....plant hire, in my experience, has collapsed in price in the past 3 years
It's a joke allright....I know of an PS Org that hires in labour from private companies to supplement it's own work gangs...the PS workers stand back on most jobs and let the private boys do the work. And the private lads are earning close enough to a 3rd of what the PS lads make.
Thats why most PS prices charged to the general public are so high!


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## Purple (4 May 2012)

Leper said:


> OOOOOOOOOOh! . . . . . . . . Has Ireland's youth and vibrant yuppies sank to the levels of taking pictures of council workers? What next? . . . . Taping them to have a laugh at what they were saying!


 The OP is a factory worker, an employee. He's part of the proletariat; a "Wurker". His credentials are superb! Since when is a “Wurker” a Yuppie? I know that Yuppies have no right to question how the state spends its citizens money or question inefficiency, sure why would people who aren’t traditional socialists (solicitors and public servants) be afforded the right to voice their disagreement with members of the brethren.



Leper said:


> Great to be Judge, Jury and Executioner.  I wonder how others would react if pictures were taken of them without permission.


 I was walking down a busy shopping street in Dublin a few years back and someone took my photo. I think it was for one of those generic “person shopping” shots. When I realised what was going on I was deeply alarmed and nearly soiled myself; the shock you know... It’s a few years ago now and I’m almost fully recovered. Thanks for asking.


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## Firefly (4 May 2012)

Chris said:


> I had a water leak outside my home last year and it took 8 guys two days to to dig a 5 feet deep whole 3 foot by 6 foot long. One of the guys, the driver of the pickup van never once got out of the van the whole time. In addition, 2 men kept coming and going, taking a look, having a cigarette and a chat and then going off again for half an hour. At any given time there were two guys digging while the rest stood around. You'd think they would take turns for their breaks, since obviously 8 men would not be able to dig at the same time. But of course that would have meant making the most efficient use of resources, and would have avoided coming back on a Saturday to finish off the job for weekend pay.


 
At least they came!!


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## thedaras (4 May 2012)

Only eight Chris?? were the others out sick


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## thedaras (4 May 2012)

purple:





> The OP is a factory worker, an employee. He's part of the proletariat; a "Wurker". His credentials are superb! Since when is a “Wurker” a Yuppie? I know that Yuppies have no right to question how the state spends its citizens money or question inefficiency, sure why would people who aren’t traditional socialists (solicitors and public servants) be afforded the right to voice their disagreement with members of the brethren.


purple, dont you know that there are only particular types of wurkers that are allowed say how our money can be spent.how very dare anyone else question inefficiency's..how very dare anyone who has a good income question how anything in this country is done...how very dare anyone else have an opinion..duh..
Until you earn minimum wage,have been hard done by in life etc ,you are not entitled to an opinion,cos your just a yuppie..
So vote No and push this to its logical conclusion..


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

I must day that I have been impressed by the work ethos of council workers in my area in terms of general maintenance - trimming trees , collecting leaves , maintaining green areas etc.

Equally from years of playing junior soccer on council & corporation pitches in Dublin Parks I must say that the care & maintenance of our Parks is second to none.

In terms of the reaction to relatively recent flooding occurrences I believe that the reaction of both corpo & council workers was exemplary.

People have every right to complain about a rather laissez faire attitude to work no matter what sector it occurs in  but everybody should not be tarred with the same brush.


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## Firefly (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> I must day that I have been impressed by the work ethos of council workers in my area in terms of general maintenance - trimming trees , collecting leaves , maintaining green areas etc.
> 
> Equally from years of playing junior soccer on council & corporation pitches in Dublin Parks I must say that the care & maintenance of our Parks is second to none.
> 
> ...


 
I think to be fair that some comments above, particularly my own are tongue in cheek. On a serious note though....given the wage increases and the pension payments that are being made to council workers who look after these parks...can you imagine how much money it is actually costing to keep these parks in order? I should think that if this was outsourced it could be done as well for an aweful lot less money (that, remember, needs to be raised from taxation or borrowed ).


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## thedaras (4 May 2012)

I for one am not tarring everyone with the same brush,but when ever anyone questions anything about the public sector,it is taken as an attack on them all,when that is clearly not the case.

By doing this,it halts discussion on those who are taking advantage of the system and have a laissez faire attitude .

When we point out an issue with the private sector it is not taken as a curse on all their houses,however when we question an issue with the public sector it is immediately jumped on as an attack on each and every Public servant.

This in my opinion is a ploy by those who defend the abuses to stop any discussion related to it.And causes others to become even more entrenched in their views.It does the Ps no favours to not acknowledge that this happens and in the majority of cases is not tackled.
If I say that in  a particular shop that I found them rude,it doesnt mean that every shop worker is rude,I would have thought that was obvious,however when I point out that I can also shop elsewhere and yet I cannot go anywhere else for say,my passport ,this again is taken as an attack.
There is no reason why people should not point out inefficiency's in a shop, a government organisation or a worker on the street or a banker..
Defending the indefensible ...


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## ajapale (4 May 2012)

As mentioned above 8 workers constructing drainage "water tables" would seem excessive. But this is typical of the kind of work which is occassionaly assigned to CE gangs who are not direct council employees.

While preemptive drainage works along rural roads is a relatively simple task there are often long and protracted "discussions" with landowners who object to the drains or want more drains or want drains in different places. Perhaps the Engineer was on the phone to the land owner trying to sort out such an impasse?


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

Let me clarify my point - inefficiencies , laziness & generally dossing are to be bemoaned in any task or job no matter whether that task or job is performed in either the private or public sector & people should complain & indeed be encouraged to complain about such failings.

Equally good work ethics are to be commended no matter what sector they occur in - of course there are some appalling inefficiencies in the private sector but I would never extrapolate such failings across the entire private sector - only an idiot would do so 

Getting back to the trench digging point - I would presume that the employer quantifies the work to be done & then decides on the amount of employees needed to complete the task in hand bearing in mind demarcation issues ( freely negotiated by the employer & the appropriate Union/Unions ) & health & safety legislation - nobody wants a repetition of the tragedies where trenches collapsed & people died.


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## thedaras (4 May 2012)

Ajapale :





> While preemptive drainage works along rural roads is a relatively simple task there are often long and protracted "discussions" with landowners who object to the drains or want more drains or want drains in different places. Perhaps the Engineer was on the phone to the land owner trying to sort out such an impasse?


Pity the employer(public or private) didnt sort this before the eight men arrived! If I hired someone to sort the drains and they arrived with eight men and two trucks and stood around for ages, while their boss sorted out something that should have been sorted long before,I certainty wouldn't pay them..but wait..I do/did pay them..


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## Delboy (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> Getting back to the trench digging point - I would presume that the employer quantifies the work to be done & then decides on the amount of employees needed to complete the task in hand bearing in mind demarcation issues ( freely negotiated by the employer & the appropriate Union/Unions ) & health & safety legislation - nobody wants a repetition of the tragedies where trenches collapsed & people died.



presume away.....that would be the ideal world but in the PS, if the gang consists of say, 10 men, and the job could be done by 5 and the other 5 sent somewhere else on another job....what do you think usually happens!!! All 10 get sent on the same job more often than not.
This is down to managerial incompetence (why bother properly scoping a job or dealing with unions/gang bosses if you try something radical such as only sending the right amount of men) and worker refusal to change due to custom/practice, laziness and sheer stubborness. 

And why you think that a union/unions should have any input into the way an Organisation carries out it's work is beyond me, but not surprising. As long as the work is done safely, legally etc, then the union should butt out and mind it's own business


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

Delboy said:


> presume away.....that would be the ideal world but in the PS, if the gang consists of say, 10 men, and the job could be done by 5 and the other 5 sent somewhere else on another job....what do you think usually happens!!! All 10 get sent on the same job more often than not.
> This is down to managerial incompetence (why bother properly scoping a job or dealing with unions/gang bosses if you try something radical such as only sending the right amount of men) and worker refusal to change due to custom/practice, laziness and sheer stubborness.
> 
> And why you think that a union/unions should have any input into the way an Organisation carries out it's work is beyond me, but not surprising. As long as the work is done safely, legally etc, then the union should butt out and mind it's own business



Unionised work forces are always going to have an input into how businesses operate - simply a fact of life ! 

Management are employed to manage , Unions endeavour to protect & if possible enhance the terms & conditions of their members - difficulties are inherent because often the views of management & employees are incompatible hence the need for a negotiated settlement.

Equally you are more than entitled to presume away that my presumption as to how the employer assigns the workforce to specified tasks is done - I just happen to believe that your view is incorrect .


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## Firefly (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> Unionised work forces are always going to have an input into how businesses operate - simply a fact of life !
> 
> Management are employed to manage , Unions endeavour to protect & if possible enhance the terms & conditions of their members - *difficulties are inherent because often the views of management & employees are incompatible* hence the need for a negotiated settlement.
> 
> Equally you are more than entitled to presume away that my presumption as to how the employer assigns the workforce to specified tasks is done - I just happen to believe that your view is incorrect .


 
Unless the management are themselves in the union


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

Firefly said:


> Unless the management are themselves in the union



Always good to see the entire workforce unionised


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## thedaras (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue;





> Management are employed to manage



Only to the extent they are allowed too,by the unions and its members.


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

thedaras said:


> Deiseblue;
> 
> Only to the extent they are allowed too,by the unions and its members.



Absolutely correct , in my time I've seen management attempt to introduce change without negotiation , change that would have negatively impacted employees.

Such changes were referred to the Union who negotiated on employees behalf - on many occasions matters ended up with the Labour Court for adjudication - I've always thought that changes are better introduced by negotiation rather than by arbitrary measures.


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## Firefly (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> Always good to see the entire workforce unionised


 
That's one way to resist change and keep the status quo. What about the customer (taxpayer)....where's their say?


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## thedaras (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> Absolutely correct , in my time I've seen management attempt to introduce change without negotiation , change that would have negatively impacted employees.
> 
> Such changes were referred to the Union who negotiated on employees behalf - on many occasions matters ended up with the Labour Court for adjudication - I've always thought that changes are better introduced by negotiation rather than by arbitrary measures.


There you go. Sums it up. 
Even when change is for the better or makes sense. Or could. Prevent wastage or require  better productivity or would benefit the customer it Will normally end up on the labour court. 
Yay. Go the unions


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

thedaras said:


> There you go. Sums it up.
> Even when change is for the better or makes sense. Or could. Prevent wastage or require  better productivity or would benefit the customer it Will normally end up on the labour court.
> Yay. Go the unions



Again I must agree with you.

When change is mutually beneficial for companies , employees & customers then there is no reason to go to the Labour Court.

A simple explanatory meeting between management & Unions is generally all that's required.

On the other hand where change negatively impacts on employees well that's another story but then again that's what negotiations between management & Unions & if required the Labour Court is for.


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## Firefly (4 May 2012)

What about where changes negatively impacts on *customers*? Where do customers have a say as when dealing with government services they cannot shop around?


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

Firefly said:


> That's one way to resist change and keep the status quo. What about the customer (taxpayer)....where's their say?



I agree - that's why it is better for employees to work in essentially a fully Unionised workforce.

The taxpayers/electorate voted in the current Government who effectively are the PS employers & who currently set the terms & conditions of such employees - such terms & conditions being safeguarded until at least 2014 by the Croke Park Agreement - what happens after 2014 is anybody's guess , personally I think another Agreement will be entered in to.

Based on this scenario & at the risk of appearing inflammatory any taxpayer who has a problem with the current position is basically consigned to having their say on sites such as this , letters to the papers & from the barstool & other social & work gatherings .

But hey , that's my view on the situation & I've been known to be wrong before


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## Firefly (4 May 2012)

They're stuck with it so really as they can't shop around. Can you imagine how that would work in the real world.....Tesco management and workers are in the same union and decide that they want to close on weekend and only open from 9.30 - 12.00 and 14.00-16.30 Monday-Friday. What do you think would happen??


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## thedaras (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:
			
		

> Based on this scenario & at the risk of appearing inflammatory any taxpayer who has a problem with the current position is basically consigned to having their say on sites such as this , letters to the papers & from the barstool & other social & work gatherings .
> 
> But hey , that's my view on the situation & I've been known to be wrong before


Another excellent summary of how the public has theire hands tied when trying to get anything resembling progress is suggested. The sad part is that the summary above is true. 
But hey ho I'f I were in that position I may fight as hard to not change.
God help those who are in favour of change, when faced with that 
Though it is great that people get to see how difficult it must be for anyone in the public or private sector that has to deal with this. Now where did I leave Maggies number...


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

Firefly said:


> They're stuck with it so really as they can't shop around. Can you imagine how that would work in the real world.....Tesco management and workers are in the same union and decide that they want to close on weekend and only open from 9.30 - 12.00 and 14.00-16.30 Monday-Friday. What do you think would happen??



Never going to happen - Tesco workers have terms & conditions that enable Tesco to operate in the fashion they do.

If in a parallel universe the Union decided to work the hours & days outlined by you they would be laughed at of court - the Labour Court !

Equally PS workers have terms & conditions currently safeguarded by the CPA - what do you think would happen if the Government as employers arbitrarily broke the Agreement ?


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## Delboy (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> Unionised work forces are always going to have an input into how businesses operate - simply a fact of life ! .



whilst what you say above is how things happen on the ground, I do find it unbelievable that that they should have any input whatsoever. 
It simply makes an PS organisation bloated, inefficient, slow etc. The problem is that the organisation then exists mainly to keep the workers in their safe and secure jobs and secondly, and it's a distant 2nd, to provide a service of sorts to the public at an inflated cost.
wrong wrong wrong in every sense of the word


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## Delboy (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> If in a parallel universe the Union decided to work the hours & days outlined by you they would be laughed at of court - the Labour Court !



unions rarely get laughed out of the Labour Court....its their friend! Some of the decisions made by the less than austere body are  beyond all belief and have contributed to the high cost and inefficiency within most PS org's


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

thedaras said:


> Another excellent summary of how the public has theire hands tied when trying to get anything resembling progress is suggested. The sad part is that the summary above is true.
> But hey ho I'f I were in that position I may fight as hard to not change.
> God help those who are in favour of change, when faced with that
> Though it is great that people get to see how difficult it must be for anyone in the public or private sector that has to deal with this. Now where did I leave Maggies number...



The only game currently in play is the Croke Park Agreement that facilitates a reduction in numbers  & the overall payroll allied to reform & increased transferability.

The Government seem determined to honour it & see it as a sea change in the operation of the PS.

I think that equates to a rather massive change.

I wouldn't bother ringing Maggie - she will have forgotten the phone call after 5 minutes.


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

Delboy said:


> unions rarely get laughed out of the Labour Court....its their friend! Some of the decisions made by the less than austere body are  beyond all belief and have contributed to the high cost and inefficiency within most PS org's



The Labour Court is an independent body much respected by Unions & employers.


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## Purple (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> The Labour Court is an independent body much respected by Unions & employers.



No it's not.


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

Purple said:


> No it's not.



Yes it is 

See you around the back of the bike sheds & we'll sort it out !


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## Purple (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> Yes it is
> 
> See you around the back of the bike sheds & we'll sort it out !



Right then!


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2012)

Purple said:


> Right then!



 - beats all that employer / union / Labour Court negotiation nonsense.

Might be a good idea if it caught on - Jack O'Connor v Richie Boucher in the National Stadium would sell a few tickets !


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## Delboy (4 May 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> - beats all that employer / union / Labour Court negotiation nonsense.
> 
> Might be a good idea if it caught on - Jack O'Connor v Richie Boucher in the National Stadium would sell a few tickets !



fek, never thought I'd see the day where I'd be cheering on a banker!


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## Complainer (5 May 2012)

in the mire said:


> Out walking last week, best not to say where (village of famous castle) as I would not like to get people into trouble.



Isn't this a big part of the problem? Unless you are prepared to actively follow up on this issue, nothing will change. Why not send your photo to the relevant County Manager or Director of Services and see what response you get?

Most councils have lost lots of their direct labour staff in recent years. Lot of these jobs are outsourced to private contractors at fixed fees.


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## Leper (5 May 2012)

Complainer said:


> Isn't this a big part of the problem? Unless you are prepared to actively follow up on this issue, nothing will change. Why not send your photo to the relevant County Manager or Director of Services and see what response you get?


 
Good Man Complainer, Why not also send people around to public hospitals, government departments, Revenue Offices, etc etc taking photos of staff on their breaks and also taping staff conversations etc etc ?

Then when you are finished send the same people into supermarkets to photo and tape the staff on the check out tills. While you are at it send them into the banks, building societies, insurance offices, solicitors offices to do the same. 

Pathetic!


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## Complainer (5 May 2012)

Leper said:


> Good Man Complainer, Why not also send people around to public hospitals, government departments, Revenue Offices, etc etc taking photos of staff on their breaks and also taping staff conversations etc etc ?
> 
> Then when you are finished send the same people into supermarkets to photo and tape the staff on the check out tills. While you are at it send them into the banks, building societies, insurance offices, solicitors offices to do the same.
> 
> Pathetic!



I guess I should have suggested the more usual AAM approach of moaning about things but not actually doing anything constructive.


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## Purple (5 May 2012)

Leper said:


> Good Man Complainer, Why not also send people around to public hospitals, government departments, Revenue Offices, etc etc taking photos of staff on their breaks and also taping staff conversations etc etc ?
> 
> Then when you are finished send the same people into supermarkets to photo and tape the staff on the check out tills. While you are at it send them into the banks, building societies, insurance offices, solicitors offices to do the same.
> 
> Pathetic!



I agree with complainer here. What do you think people should do when they see their hard earned money being wasted?


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## Leper (6 May 2012)

The like of County Council labourers are an easy target for the likes of Dial-a-Moan. Generally, they work in the open and are ultra visible (add in high-viz vests). A photograph is a moment in time and pictures don't always tell the truth. It is very easy to be Judge, Jury and Executioner especially from behind a nom-de-plume. Even chain gangs in the movies have rest periods; people can't break stones all day long continuously.

I have run shops and other kinds of businesses successfully. I am always aware of providing value and good customer service. Also, I am aware that many customers (especially nowadays) demand customer pandering by bitching about everything that can be bitched about and even when there is nothing to bitch about.


The country has lost its "manliness" along with other virtues. We are bitchin' about relatively minor things e.g. council workers (most of whom probably dont have even secondary education, incidentally I left school during secondary school myself). I fear for genuine people trying to eke out a self employed existence today because not only are they laboured with high costs, ultra-safety procedures, tax, high-rents and plethora of more costs etc, they have to face two-bit twit-inspired moaners looking for some kind of compensation over something small.


Let's take one example of millions of Euro going down the drain and nobody is saying a word. I read it costs the state €70,000 to train a nurse. Two hundred nurses are due to graduate from one university alone this year and this costs the state €14,000000. Nobody is complaining, the nurses/midwives will not work in Ireland as there are no jobs.


Everything is relative and council workers taking a break is not a big deal. Please note I have been (unusually) mild in these posts. I haven't mentioned the cost of our tribunals, bank bail-outs, etc etc.


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## Complainer (6 May 2012)

in the mire said:


> Out walking last week, best not to say where (village of famous castle) as I would not like to get people into trouble.
> 
> The council were digging shallow trenches every 200 yards or so to allow water flow off the road* ( road not flooded) *





ajapale said:


> The activity described sounds like the construction of "_*water tables*_" these are channels cut into the ditch to allow drainage of the carriage way. It is essential that these are maintained prior to periods of heavy rain to avoid flooding and/or damage to the road surface.



I've bolded one phrase to show one of the other risks of working in the public sector.  Everyone seems to consider themselves expert in everything done in the public sector, though really, they're not experts.

So The Mire has a little dig on the side about public sector digging trenchese before the roads get flooded. He misses the very important point that this is preventative maintenance work, that must be carried out to avoid flooding.


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## Purple (6 May 2012)

Leper said:


> The like of County Council labourers are an easy target for the likes of Dial-a-Moan. Generally, they work in the open and are ultra visible (add in high-viz vests). A photograph is a moment in time and pictures don't always tell the truth. It is very easy to be Judge, Jury and Executioner especially from behind a nom-de-plume. Even chain gangs in the movies have rest periods; people can't break stones all day long continuously.
> 
> I have run shops and other kinds of businesses successfully. I am always aware of providing value and good customer service. Also, I am aware that many customers (especially nowadays) demand customer pandering by bitching about everything that can be bitched about and even when there is nothing to bitch about.
> 
> ...



If, during a discussion about banks/ tribunals etc, posters brought up the issue of council employees or contractors being inefficient they would to castigated and rightly so as the two issues are not linked.
Members of the public are perfectly entitled to question how and where the state spends their money. I'd go further, I'd say people have a duty to do so.

You haven't hade a single point about the topic in your post.


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## Leper (6 May 2012)

Purple said:


> Members of the public are perfectly entitled to question how and where the state spends their money. I'd go further, I'd say people have a duty to do so.
> 
> You haven't hade a single point about the topic in your post.


 
If people have so many duties, why are so many people's cars parked on double yellow lines? Why do we have costly tribunals? Why is there nobody in prison who caused our economic downturn? Why do people drive in excess of speed limits?   The Call-of-Duty, picking on county council workers, dont make me laugh.


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## ajapale (6 May 2012)

Purple said:


> You haven't hade a single point about the topic in your post.



In fairness to Leper he does address some of the issues raised by the op in the opening post.  The Blarney 11!

Ive said it before but such a large gang sounds very like a CEP (Community Employment Programme) detail but until we hear more from the OP we can only speculate.


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## Leper (7 May 2012)

ajapale said:


> In fairness to Leper he does address some of the issues raised by the op in the opening post. The Blarney 11!


 
Thank you ajapale, I was beginning to think I was among people stuck inside some kind of "I-myself-am-always-right-and-I-dont-care-what-others-say capsule" - I am not stupid enough (yet) to think that a blind eye should be taken at wasted public money. But, everything is relative.

Like I said before pictures dont always tell the truth. We dont know the full story. It is easy to make allegations. County council workers are easy targets. We dont know what the eleven workers were doing before or after the photo. Anyway, I'm repeating myself.

However, I regret to say the nation is being turned into a nation of intolerable whingers. Only last week I was buying some breakfast rolls having stopped off in a petrol station (where else?). While I was waiting in the queue a suited male know-all passed the entire queue to hand back a torn pair of tights which he said were sub quality and demanded his money back. I informed him sarcastcally that he could go ahead of me in the queue, much to the humour of others there. Yer man ranted and raved and was advised by the attendant that the tights were from a pack of three and he would refund money if the full set was returned. Great guffaws and jibes from the leprous rabble followed.

Unfortunately, the like of the petrol station story is becoming all too common.


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## Purple (7 May 2012)

Leper said:


> Thank you ajapale, I was beginning to think I was among people stuck inside some kind of "I-myself-am-always-right-and-I-dont-care-what-others-say capsule" - I am not stupid enough (yet) to think that a blind eye should be taken at wasted public money. But, everything is relative.
> 
> Like I said before pictures dont always tell the truth. We dont know the full story. It is easy to make allegations. County council workers are easy targets. We dont know what the eleven workers were doing before or after the photo. Anyway, I'm repeating myself.
> 
> ...



I see your point. We now have a nation of people who took out loans to go on holidays (or used their credit card to pay for it), borrowed more than they should to buy homes and investment properties that they knew was over valued, looked for and got pay increases way ahead of inflation, looked for and got income tax cuts and welfare increases that they knew were financed by a capital tax bonanza and kept re-electing the government that was behaving so irresponsibly and yet despite all of that most people think they have no personal responsibility for the situation we now find ourselves in! 

It's incredible, isn't it?!


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## monagt (7 May 2012)

> borrowed more than they should to buy homes and investment properties that they knew was over valued, PURPLE



Why would a person buy something that they knew was OVERVALUED!!! What nonsense.


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## Purple (7 May 2012)

monagt said:


> Why would a person buy something that they knew was OVERVALUED!!! What nonsense.



So people didn't know we were in a property bubble.... Yea, sure.


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## Bronte (7 May 2012)

Purple said:


> So people didn't know we were in a property bubble.... Yea, sure.


 
The only person who knew about the property bubble was you.  You've admitted it on here a few times.  And you still bought !


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## Purple (7 May 2012)

Bronte said:


> The only person who knew about the property bubble was you.  You've admitted it on here a few times.  And you still bought !



No, lots of people knew about it and many journalists wrote about it but some people didn't listen.
Yes, I moved house during the boom but I'm not blaming anyone else because my house lost value.


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## thedaras (7 May 2012)

Leper said:


> Thank you ajapale, I was beginning to think I was among people stuck inside some kind of "I-myself-am-always-right-and-I-dont-care-what-others-say capsule" - I am not stupid enough (yet) to think that a blind eye should be taken at wasted public money. But, everything is relative.
> 
> Like I said before pictures dont always tell the truth.* We dont know the full story*. *It is easy to make allegations*. County council workers are easy targets. We dont know what the eleven workers were doing before or after the photo. Anyway, I'm repeating myself.
> 
> ...



Thats a very interesting observation especially that you dont know the full story..
But obviously its OK for you to do exactly what you complain about in others..


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