# Ireland's Call



## Z100 (11 Feb 2007)

Am I entirely alone in rushing for the bathroom when that nursery rhyme Ireland's Call strikes up at rugby matches?

I had an avocado for lunch today (I'm very posh) and almost lost it when I heard the first note.

I wouldn't exactly give douze point to Amhran na Bhfiann if I heard it in the Eurovision, but I would lead an invasion of any country that entered Ireland's Call, and wouldn't give up til I found the writer and banished him to a Siberian labour camp.

Is it just me? Does everyone else find it rousing and emotional?


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## jasconius (11 Feb 2007)

Personally speaking, after a feed of avocado, I would hope that you would find something rousing! Not too sure about the emotional bit though.


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## almo (12 Feb 2007)

Ireland's Call was and is a PC fob to the "peace process", why it needed to be installed I don't know, but even as I listened to the radio coverage on RTE you could hear and sense the lull with it's performance.  It'd be great if they'd get rid of it but unless there is a general revolution in Ireland it will be there for a lot longer yet.


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

Perhaps they should sing alternate verses of _Amhrán na bhFiann _and _God Save the Queen _for parity of esteem? (Hmmmm - nice assonance there if I say so myself). I guess there'd be arguments over which verse came first then though.


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## Betsy Og (12 Feb 2007)

While I'd prefer if it was Amhran na Bfhiann alone, dont we have to take account of our Norn brethren?, and from that point of view it doesnt bother me.

Its a little wake up call for those longing for a united Ireland - it aint going to happen unless theres a good dubbing down of the anthem, the flag, etc. etc.


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## Purple (12 Feb 2007)

Ulster Rugby has a Northern unionist tradition. Do you think it's fair to expect them to stand for Amhran na Bfhiann alone?
I think it is to their credit that they stand for it at all. Would those from Leinster and Munster stand for God save the queen? I don't think so.


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## CCOVICH (12 Feb 2007)

Maybe those from Leinster would  .


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## Purple (12 Feb 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> Maybe those from Leinster would  .



Or the ones from Cork could sing whatever they sing in their country


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

Betsy Og said:


> While I'd prefer if it was Amhran na Bfhiann alone


Does _Amhran na Bfhiann_ go anything like _Amhrán na bhFiann_?


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## almo (12 Feb 2007)

Let's put it this way, if they play for Ireland, fine, they sing the hymn of the land, if they play for England, Scotland, Wales, play their anthems.  The fob to pc insanity is not going to solve the problems.  Far better is to count how many catholics have played for Ulster and compare it with actual players registered etc (this isn't a republican rant, just something pointed out by an Ulster supporter).

Barry McGuigan put it very nicely many moons ago when talking about why he fought for the British title and had a British passport.  "Amateurs box for their vest, professionals fight for money".  The Irish players are pro's (or supposed to be), so if they'd to stand to attention to the Chicken dance, and it's in the contract, how many would walk off in disgust????


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

almo said:


> they sing the hymn of the land


Hymn?


> Far better is to count how many catholics have played for Ulster and compare it with actual players registered etc (this isn't a republican rant, just something pointed out by an Ulster supporter).


What the hell has religion got to do with this?!


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## Purple (12 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Does _Amhran na Bfhiann_ go anything like _Amhrán na bhFiann_?


It’s the dyslexic’s version. 


> this isn't a republican rant


 You could have fooled me.The players play for Ireland, not The Republic of Ireland or the province of Northern Ireland. They do not play for a political entity but a geographical one.


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

Purple said:


> It’s the dyslexic’s version.
> You could have fooled me.The players play for Ireland, not The Republic of Ireland or the province of Northern Ireland. They do not play for a political entity but a geographical one.


And they definitely don't represent any particular church/religion!


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## RonanC (12 Feb 2007)

When Scotland play a Rugby match do they play GSTQ ?? NO ! - instead they play Flower of Scotland

When Wales play a Rugby match do they play GSTQ ?? NO ! - instead they play Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau (land of my fathers)


So why should it be played for a handful of "Unionists" who CHOOSE to play for IRELAND ? 

and what i mean by that before anyone jumps down my throat... a person from north of Ireland who prefers to have the Queen as their ruler. and also, I appreciate it when those Ulster men wear the Green of Ireland and give it their all ! Religion doesnt come into it hear for me... so dont go there!!!


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

RonanC said:


> When Scotland play a Rugby match do they play GSTQ ?? - instead they play Flower of Scotland


Which, like _Ireland's Call _is an unofficial anthem.


> When Wales play a Rugby match do they play GSTQ ?? - instead they play Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau (land of my fathers)


Ditto.
 
Mind you QSTQ is also strictly unofficial. 


> So why should it be played for a handful of "Unionists" who CHOOSE to play for IRELAND ?


I think you're overreacting to previous *facetious *comments about playing _GSTQ _for an Irish team!


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## RonanC (12 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Which, like _Ireland's Call _is an unofficial anthem.
> 
> Ditto.
> 
> ...


 

ah I'm not really, just trying to make a point. What really annoys me though is this...

I've been to countless International sports matches both home and abroad and everytime I feel like im the only one singing OUR (Rep. of Ireland) national anthem.. I think its a bit of a disgrace really that people dont sing it.


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## CCOVICH (12 Feb 2007)

Purple said:


> Or the ones from Cork could sing whatever they sing in their country


 

Indeed!


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## almo (12 Feb 2007)

The point about counting the Catholics was just moot, I only mentioned it because of the fact that at the ultimate level they represent Ireland, and while the Amhran isn't the anthem for the whole island, they play under the tricolour.

I don't dislike Ireland's Call, but why not just sing the Fields of Athenry (oh wait, British oppression, famine, leave that out); or Danny Boy (okay, men singing a love song, to a man, maybe a bit too pink - then again, it is rugby......).  

A handful of times that I represented Ireland, and stood when the anthem played, it was half way through before I got going to sing, and the last line and a half disappears in a "Go on....".  Is there an option?


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

almo said:


> The point about counting the Catholics was just moot, I only mentioned it because of the fact that at the ultimate level they represent Ireland, and while the Amhran isn't the anthem for the whole island, they play under the tricolour.


Er, that doesn't really explain why you mentioned religion at all!? 


> A handful of times that I represented Ireland, and stood when the anthem played, it was half way through before I got going to sing


Why - did you not know the words? Or are you not a _Catholic_?


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## darag (12 Feb 2007)

> I've been to countless International sports matches both home and abroad and everytime I feel like im the only one singing OUR (Rep. of Ireland) national anthem.. I think its a bit of a disgrace really that people dont sing it.


Maybe you'd be better off sticking to international sports where the teams represent political entities?  Soccer maybe?

In 6 nations rugby, only the French and the Italians use actual national anthems.  The other 4 teams do not represent actual countries so they use various songs.  There's nothing unique about Ireland in that regard.

And don't try to say you remember singing "OUR (Rep. of Ireland) national anthem" at away rugby matches.  That has simply never happened.


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## Z100 (12 Feb 2007)

Purple said:


> Ulster Rugby has a Northern unionist tradition.


 
That’s certainly true, and it’s a tradition that, rightly or wrongly, Ulster rugby has guarded over the years, with no attempt ever made to dilute its British/Unionist image, in terms of flags and anthems, so it might attract players and supporters from the ‘other’ side. In that sense Ulster rugby is as guilty as the GAA in the north for emphasising the divisions between the two communities, rather than trying to lessen them.  



Purple said:


> Do you think it's fair to expect them to stand for Amhran na Bfhiann alone?


 
Personally yes, but I have no major objection to a second song being played if it keeps Ulster Unionism happy   The ones I feel sorry for are the opposition, how painful must it be to have to stand through your opponents’ *two* anthems!



Purple said:


> I think it is to their credit that they stand for it at all.


 
Why is it a credit to them? I think the real credit goes to the southern authorities who decided to play a second anthem to appease Ulster Unionism, rather than sticking to the line ‘if you play for Ireland you stand for the Irish anthem and no other’. Do they play a second song at Ravenhill, apart from God Save the Queen, at cup finals, etc in an attempt to appease and attract people from the ‘other’ tradition? No.



Purple said:


> Would those from Leinster and Munster stand for God save the queen? I don't think so.


 
Why would Leinster and Munster (and Connacht – they play rugby too, sort of) _*ever*_ have to stand for God Save the Queen. They’re Irish.


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## CCOVICH (12 Feb 2007)

darag said:


> And don't try to say you remember singing "OUR (Rep. of Ireland) national anthem" at away rugby matches. That has simply never happened.


 
Really? I seem to recall that Amhran na bhFiann wasn't played at Twickenham, but thought it used to be played at other grounds?


I've said it before, let's just adopt the Brazilian anthem for our rugby team, or expel the Italians and use theirs!


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## Z100 (12 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Perhaps they should sing alternate verses of _Amhrán na bhFiann _and _God Save the Queen _for parity of esteem? (Hmmmm - nice assonance there if I say so myself).


 
How about "God Save Our Soldier's Song"?


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## Z100 (12 Feb 2007)

Purple said:


> The players play for Ireland, not The Republic of Ireland or the province of Northern Ireland. They do not play for a political entity but a geographical one.


 
I'd love to see you tell Paul O'Connell, John Hayes, Peter Stringer, etc that they're playing for a geographical entity, not their country  That might be how you view it, it's certainly not how they do.


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## Z100 (12 Feb 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> Really? I seem to recall that Amhran na bhFiann wasn't played at Twickenham, but it used to be played at other grounds?


 
As far as I know not playing Amhran na bhFiann at (all) away games is a relatively recent thing, but understandably enough no one was brave enough to suggest not playing it in Dublin  



CCOVICH said:


> I've said it before, let's just adopt the Brazilian anthem for our rugby team, or expel the Italians and use theirs!


 
Top idea! Although I think I'd go for the French anthem, or the Welsh, or the Scottish, or the Russian. Janie, even I'd be brave enough to ruck and maul for my country after hearing them.


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## Purple (12 Feb 2007)

Bushfire said:


> I'd love to see you tell Paul O'Connell, John Hayes, Peter Stringer, etc that they're playing for a geographical entity, not their country  That might be how you view it, it's certainly not how they do.


  Have a look [broken link removed] for the history of the IRFU. You will see that it is an all Ireland sporting organisation and does not represent a political entity. As far as I am concerned all of the players represent their country but the IRFU and the Irish team still represent, and is comprised of, people from two political entities. That's the way it is.


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## Purple (12 Feb 2007)

Bushfire said:


> How about "God Save Our Soldier's Song"?


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## Z100 (12 Feb 2007)

Purple said:


> Have a look [broken link removed] for the history of the IRFU. You will see that it is an all Ireland sporting organisation and does not represent a political entity. As far as I am concerned all of the players represent their country but the IRFU and the Irish team still represent, and is comprised of, people from two political entities. That's the way it is.


 
Not denying that the rulebook may refer to geographical entities, rather than political, but the rulebook has no impact on the heart! O'Connell and Co play for their country, Ireland, and no man will persuade them otherwise.


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## Z100 (12 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Perhaps they should sing alternate verses of _Amhrán na bhFiann _and _God Save the Queen _for parity of esteem? (Hmmmm - nice assonance there if I say so myself). I guess there'd be arguments over which verse came first then though.


 
Your wish is my command:

God save your gracious Queen,
(Whose soldiers’ lives aren’t pledged to Ireland)
Long live your noble Queen,
(although, no more our ancient sire land
shall shelter the despot or the slave).
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
(But in Erin's cause, come woe or weal
‘mid cannon's roar and rifles' peal
We'll chant a soldier's song). 
Long may she reign over you,
God save your Queen (and Bertie).


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

darag said:


> Maybe you'd be better off sticking to international sports where the teams represent political entities?  Soccer maybe?


What about, say, _Derry City_ representing the _FAI/eircom League _in _European _club competitions?


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

Bushfire said:


> How about "God Save Our Soldier's Song"?


 I like it. 

Or we could got for _Micheal Kelly's _(_Apres Match's GAA _overseer of assimilation of foreign games into _Gaelic _zones) solution and sing _GSTQ as __Gaeilge.

_


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## Z100 (12 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> What about, say, _Derry City_ representing the _FAI/eircom League _in _European _club competitions?


 
Ah but remember, it's _Free_ Derry, as even those PSG banners confirmed, so you'd be an awful brave man to tell them they're a British club representing the Republic of Ireland in European competition


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## almo (12 Feb 2007)

It's a perception, clubman, that Ulster represents a broad swathe of society, like that hurling in Armagh offers a wholesome view of the Orchard County.  Religion isn't the problem, seregation (mental or physical) is - not in an apartheid way, far worse, like why no serbs get a game for Zadar (even Dado Prso was told to scoot).

I didn't have a chance to get into the swing of it as the music was off and running before I even knew it began, and then when I was enjoying it the big roar went up a line earlier than normal - drunk people and boxing, what else can you do!



ClubMan said:


> Er, that doesn't really explain why you mentioned religion at all!?
> 
> Why - did you not know the words? Or are you not a _Catholic_?


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## almo (12 Feb 2007)

Bushfire, they're not even British, they're UK citizens!  Britain, great or otherwise, is Scotland, Wales and England, Northern Ireland can really only claim to be Britain Light - less calories than Scotland but mroe removed from reality than Wales.  



Bushfire said:


> Ah but remember, it's _Free_ Derry, as even those PSG banners confirmed, so you'd be an awful brave man to tell them they're a British club representing the Republic of Ireland in European competition


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

Bushfire said:


> Ah but remember, it's _Free_ Derry, as even those PSG banners confirmed, so you'd be an awful brave man to tell them they're a British club representing the Republic of Ireland in European competition


Not _British_. _UK _perhaps.

_Post crossed with almo's._


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## ClubMan (12 Feb 2007)

almo said:


> It's a perception, clubman, that Ulster represents a broad swathe of society, like that hurling in Armagh offers a wholesome view of the Orchard County.  Religion isn't the problem, seregation (mental or physical) is - not in an apartheid way, far worse, like why no serbs get a game for Zadar (even Dado Prso was told to scoot).


Eh? I'm finding it more and more difficult to make sense of your posts in this thread and you still haven't really satisfactorily explained why you introduced the issue of religion in the first place.


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## darag (12 Feb 2007)

> As far as I know not playing Amhran na bhFiann at (all) away games is a relatively recent thing, but understandably enough no one was brave enough to suggest not playing it in Dublin


Amhran na bhFiann has simply never been played anywhere at an away Ireland game.  Ireland's Call was specifically comissioned in 95 so that Ireland would have an away anthem.  Before that we had no anthem at away games.

The idea that not playing Amhran na bhFiann at away games is some sort of recent PC concession to unionism shows a lack of knowledge of the history of Irish rugby.  At no point was Amhran na bhFiann associated with the team.  It was played in Lansdown as a mark of respect if the president was present.  In the very distant past when Ireland played some home games in Belfast, God Save the Queen was played for similar reasons for whoever (UK) government representative was present.

Seems to me that objections to the fact that Amhran na bhFiann isn't the anthem of the Irish rugby team are motivated by politics.  Certainly they can't be based on the traditions of Irish rugby.


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## Marion (12 Feb 2007)

Interestingly, I noticed a number of the team who did not sing _Amhran na Bhfainn_ (at least when the camera was focussed on them). Also, it seemed that _Ireland's Call_ was sung with gusto when the camera featured a couple of players.

At the end of the day, what does it really matter?

Marion


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## Delboy (12 Feb 2007)

Marion said:


> Interestingly, I noticed a number of the team who did not sing _Amhran na Bhfainn_ (at least when the camera was focussed on them). Also, it seemed that _Ireland's Call_ was sung with gusto when the camera featured a couple of players.
> 
> At the end of the day, what does it really matter?
> 
> Marion


 
I've heard  that the irish players are 'obliged' to be seen to sing Ireland's Call by the powers that be....I believe it too, as there's no way that all 15+ subs would sing it with such bravado, given that as many punters hate it as those that love it. It's an awful ditty, an embarrasment. Personally I'd like to hear 'A Nation once again'...now there's a powerful tune, as good as the French or Italian anthems.


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## Z100 (12 Feb 2007)

darag said:


> Amhran na bhFiann has simply never been played anywhere at an away Ireland game…..


 
I’ll bow to your greater knowledge on this Darag, I’m horrified that my dodgy memory has failed me yet again, could have sworn we played A na bhF away from home, but I was obviously getting confused with Irish sporting associations who insist on playing _*our*_ anthem.  



darag said:


> …..shows a lack of knowledge of the history of Irish rugby.


 
Guilty as charged. But sounds to me like this is more about the history of Irish rugby politics, not of the game itself? I don’t recall anthems ever been much of an issue until the emergence of the absurd Ireland’s Call. It quite obviously _wasn’t_ solely commissioned to just provide us with an ‘anthem’ for away games when it is also played at home – that, evidently, was a gesture towards Ulster rugby which, as you said yourself, “has a Northern unionist tradition”. Only you used the term ‘PC’.



darag said:


> At no point was Amhran na bhFiann associated with the team…..seems to me that objections to the fact that Amhran na bhFiann isn't the anthem of the Irish rugby team are motivated by politics.


 
Ah now, would you listen to yourself?!? Even Stevie Wonder could see that your impassioned stance on this issue, and obvious antipathy to our anthem, couldn’t be _anything_ but politically motivated! And that’s fine, we’re all entitled to be motivated by our personal politics, but at least be honest about it.

No matter how much it might pain you it is a simple fact: Amhran na bhFiann *is* most definitely ‘associated’ with the Irish rugby team by the Irish rugby supporters who belt it out at Lansdowne/Croke Park. 

You might see the team as representing a non-offensive neutral geographical entity, those who carry their tri-colours to games and sing Amhran na bhFiann with gusto see the team as representing the country they live in, Ireland. There’s nothing aggressive or anti-Ulster about it, it’s all perfectly natural. Sure, even Davy Tweed coped with it. For a while.  

Those supporters who choose not to sing Amhran na bhFiann are obviously quite entitled to view the team in a different way, as you do, as an all-island collection of players who represent nothing more than a geographical entity. Those two views seem to have lived happily alongside each other, even with Amhran na bhFiann ringing in the background.


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## almo (13 Feb 2007)

Far better is to count how many catholics have played for Ulster and compare it with actual players registered etc 

ClubMan, my point, and is, while Ireland's Call is awful, rugby isn't and won't be the sport of the whole country nor a unifying sport - the issue of under representation in Ulster is something that never gets discussed as "rugby is an all-island sport".  Far more unifying are boxing and equestrian sports who have anthems played home and away regardless of who is sitting on a horse or standing in the ring.

Does that explain it?




ClubMan said:


> Eh? I'm finding it more and more difficult to make sense of your posts in this thread and you still haven't really satisfactorily explained why you introduced the issue of religion in the first place.


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## Purple (13 Feb 2007)

Bushfire said:


> You might see the team as representing a non-offensive neutral geographical entity, those who carry their tri-colours to games and sing Amhran na bhFiann with gusto see the team as representing the country they live in, Ireland. There’s nothing aggressive or anti-Ulster about it, it’s all perfectly natural. Sure, even Davy Tweed coped with it. For a while.
> 
> Those supporters who choose not to sing Amhran na bhFiann are obviously quite entitled to view the team in a different way, as you do, as an all-island collection of players who represent nothing more than a geographical entity. Those two views seem to have lived happily alongside each other, even with Amhran na bhFiann ringing in the background.



When I go to matches I see the team as representing Ireland, my country. I am sure that, as you suggest, a Unionist from Belfast feels differently. That's why our national anthem is not sung. 
The less any of this matters the closer we will get to a united Ireland.


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## polaris (13 Feb 2007)

Ireland A played the England Saxons at Ravenhill last Friday night. 

Does anyone know what was sung before that match?


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## Purple (13 Feb 2007)

polaris said:


> Ireland A palyed the England Saxons at Ravenhill last Friday night.
> 
> Does anyone know what was sung before that match?



Go on, tell us!


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## ClubMan (13 Feb 2007)

almo said:


> Far better is to count how many catholics have played for Ulster and compare it with actual players registered etc
> 
> ClubMan, my point, and is, while Ireland's Call is awful, rugby isn't and won't be the sport of the whole country nor a unifying sport - the issue of under representation in Ulster is something that never gets discussed as "rugby is an all-island sport".  Far more unifying are boxing and equestrian sports who have anthems played home and away regardless of who is sitting on a horse or standing in the ring.
> 
> Does that explain it?


No - what has _Catholicism _got to do with this?


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## Z100 (13 Feb 2007)

Purple said:


> When I go to matches I see the team as representing Ireland, my country. I am sure that, as you suggest, a Unionist from Belfast feels differently. That's why our national anthem is not sung.


 
But it _is_ sung.



Purple said:


> The less any of this matters the closer we will get to a united Ireland.


 
But what will be the anthem for a united Ireland?  

A Nation of Sashes Once Again?


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## almo (13 Feb 2007)

ClubMan, we are talking about music for a unified country/nation.   A sport which is "representative" of the country and it's inhabitants (on an international stage).  And Ireland's Call was put forward to try slide into place of the Republic's National Anthem, just under the national level there is a glossing over of a situation where there has been long standing problem of across the board representation, which is as important (or nearly) as a simply ditty, or maybe this is incorrect?  Ultimately rugby is not representative of the whole society and since the players are pro's they'll stand to attention for whatever music they are told to.



ClubMan said:


> No - what has _Catholicism _got to do with this?


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## ClubMan (13 Feb 2007)

Still doesn't explain your original references to _Catholicism_. I'm beginning to feel like _Jeremy Paxman _now. So I think I'll stop. I just don't know what doing a sectarian headcount of _Ulster _rugby players has to do with this issue at all.


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## Z100 (13 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> No - what has _Catholicism _got to do with this?


 
Ulster Catholic/Nationalist/GAA v Ulster Protestant/Unionist/Rugby. 

God, I love labels.


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## ClubMan (13 Feb 2007)

For 15 points - what are x and y? 5 bonus points for humour.

x/y/Soccer?


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## Z100 (13 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I just don't know what doing a sectarian headcount of _Ulster _rugby players has to do with this issue at all.


 
Are you not being a bit harsh on Almo here? I don't think him bringing 'Catholics' in to it is sectarian at all, it was just his way of identifying one side of the NI community (rather than going down the Nationalists/Republicans v Unionists/Loyalists route) when he was asking if they get fair representation on the Ulster rugby team. 

(Have _no_ idea if they do or not, but God forbid we go down the South African route and use a quota to get all sections of the community on the team).

But _if_ this is an issue then it should be dealt with. Ireland's Call exists partly to make Ulster rugby players more comfortable playing for Ireland, but Ulster rugby needs to do its bit too. It seems to be the onus is always being put on the southern, for want of a better word, side to accommodate unionist sensitivities, but surely it's a two way street?


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## Z100 (13 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> x/y/Soccer?


 
Church of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ of Latter-day Saints/International Socialist/Soccer?

Ireland/Useless at/Soccer?


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## almo (13 Feb 2007)

ClubMan, the Paxman bit is okay, I was watching a show called absolute power (apparently it's supposed to be a BBC comedy) and there was a presenter on interviewing a Bin Laden who was being blackmailed by Stephen Fry.  Okay, that was an brain blip.

No, the catholic element is there because everybody focuses on the anthem, that it's an all-island team, yet within the game itself it is unrepresentative of the 2 countries and anthem or no it's moot.


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## ClubMan (13 Feb 2007)

almo said:


> No, the catholic element is there because everybody focuses on the anthem, that it's an all-island team, yet within the game itself it is unrepresentative of the 2 countries and anthem or no it's moot.


Not all _Nationalists/Republicans _(both with a small and large R) are _Catholics_. And vice versa.


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## ClubMan (13 Feb 2007)

Bushfire said:


> Are you not being a bit harsh on Almo here? I don't think him bringing 'Catholics' in to it is sectarian at all, it was just his way of identifying one side of the NI community (rather than going down the Nationalists/Republicans v Unionists/Loyalists route) when he was asking if they get fair representation on the Ulster rugby team.


Of course it's sectarian (by definition - i.e. counting the heads based on membership of a particular religious sect) to bring a headcount of _Catholic _rugby players into it. Worse still is assuming that this necessarily has some relevance in terms of inferring the political beliefs or ideals of those counted or omitted.  It would be a lot different if he had said let's count the number of _Ulster _rugby players who hold _Nationalist/[Rr]epublican _ideals and whose ideals might not be reflected by the _UK/NI _state or trappings such as its monarchy, unofficial anthem etc.


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## Wilkes (13 Feb 2007)

Ah for Heavens sake why don't we give it "A Nation Once Again" on the big screen for all to sing Sat week. Tis a catchy tune. 

Then lets get HRM Quenn Elizebeth to throw in the sliothar at the next All -Ireland Hurling final and finally bury this whole thing into the dust bin of history where it belongs. C'mon the Munster Fusiliers who fought at Mons, the Iniskillings at Waterloo and the boys from the old brigade who stood with me when history was made!


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## CCOVICH (13 Feb 2007)

None of what has been said has much to do with the original point of the thread:

Ireland's Call is gock.

Let's not lose sight of that!


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## almo (13 Feb 2007)

Okay, ClubMan, I'll rephrase the original idea that was only put down to show how ridiculous having a neutral anthem/song/ditty is:
Can we count the number of Republican/Nationalist/Poor who have played for Ulster, and for the Irish team, how many from lower/lower middle class disadvantaged areas have played for Ireland against those who actually play?


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## Z100 (13 Feb 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Of course it's sectarian


 
It's _not_.



ClubMan said:


> It would be a lot different if he had said let's count the number of _Ulster _rugby players who hold _Nationalist/[Rr]epublican _ideals.......


 
Ah Clubman, you're taking pedantry to previously uncharted territories  

It might be daft but we both know 'Catholics' and 'Protestants' have been the labels used to describe the two _sides_ over the years, even though religion has flip all to do with it. They're lazy but they're easy labels, that's why they're used. (This of course led to not-very-informed outsiders assuming it was a battle about preferred flavours of christianity). 

I have Catholic cousins in the north whose greatest nightmare was a united Ireland (well, until the Celtic Tiger stuff), similarly I have northern Presbyterian friends (some of my best friends are....) who feel a whole lot more Irish than they do British and are quite in to the idea of a united Ireland, for sundry reasons. 

So of course religious labels are kind of silly, but using them _isn't_ sectarian, it's just a sweeping way of distinguishing one community from the other. Otherwise you'd be there for the night talking about constitutional Nationalists, pro-Agreement Republicans, anti-Agreement Republicans, pro-Agreement Unionists, anti-Agreement Unionists, pro-Agreement Loyalists, anti-Agreement Loyalists, Real IRA, Unreal IRA, Continuity IRA.........God Clubman, _nobody_ has that that much time.


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## Z100 (13 Feb 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> None of what has been said has much to do with the original point of the thread: Ireland's Call is gock.


 
Very, *VERY* loud applause.


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## darag (14 Feb 2007)

Bushfire said:
			
		

> Ah now, would you listen to yourself?!? Even Stevie Wonder could see that your impassioned stance on this issue, and obvious antipathy to our anthem, couldn’t be anything but politically motivated! And that’s fine, we’re all entitled to be motivated by our personal politics, but at least be honest about it.


What impassioned stance and what antipathy to our anthem?  To put it in the politest terms, you're simply making things up about me.  I simply stated some facts about the history of Ireland's Call and the national anthem with respect to Irish rugby - facts of which you were obviously ignorant.

Also you seem to have appointed yourself spokesperson for Paul O'Connell, Stringer, etc. and how they feel about this issue.  I've met many of the Irish rugby team socially, was school friends with a past captain and neighbours with a current first team player.  These guys are all have massive pride in and respect for the traditions of Irish rugby.  And, like it or not, these traditions don't accord with your view of how things should be.  Because of the all-Ireland nature of the organisation, the Irish rugby team has never been associated with tricolours or the national anthem.



			
				Bushfire said:
			
		

> Those supporters who choose not to sing Amhran na bhFiann are obviously quite entitled to view the team in a different way, as you do, as an all-island collection of players who represent nothing more than a geographical entity.


You still don't get it, do you?  I sing our national anthem loudly and with gusto at home internationals.  I even know the words unlike about 90% of the population.  Please read what I have actually written instead of responding to what you imagine I do or believe.



			
				Almo said:
			
		

> And Ireland's Call was put forward to try slide into place of the Republic's National Anthem


This is completely false as I explained already.  Ireland's Call replaced NOTHING - there was no team anthem before it.  Amhran na bhFiann will always be played in Lansdown (or wherever) if the president or a representative of the president is present as it ALWAYS was.  Ireland's Call will not and was never intended to displace Amhran na bhFiann in this regard.


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## ajapale (14 Feb 2007)

IC is better than TROT (The Rose of Tralee) which was played on tour in Australia in the 1980's. Con Houlihan described it as a "Victorian Weepie". When Dick Spring made his displeasure known to the IRFU he got a rather sniffy response along the lines "well can you think of anything better?"

disclaimer: I am not connected to TROT in any way.


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## almo (14 Feb 2007)

Darag, when Ireland's Call was introduced the statement from the IRFU was as follows: "This song will go on to become a rallying hymn for all sides and replace any worries that are evident in the ongoing peace process on the island of Ireland."  This was from a Donnybrook press confrence (I was there and noted it).  In the press it was reported as the "future anthem for rugby on the island of Ireland".  They took a lead from the South African side where they slipped in God Bless Africa which in certain instances has been played without the original anthem.  There has always been a debate over replacing the anthem with something more rosy and nice, it's always a talking point and the biggest problem with this rugby "anthem" is that it is not totally inspiring.


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## Z100 (14 Feb 2007)

darag said:


> I sing our national anthem loudly and with gusto at home internationals. I even know the words




Oh my God, you _*sing*_ Amhrán na bhFiann (loudly and with gusto?) at home internationals?  

You *sing* that Republican, blood-thirsty, jingositic ditty in the presence of our brothers of a Unionist persusion from the North, in a provocative, aggressive and confrontational way, with no respect for their sensitivities or for *the traditions of rugby*, which, as we know, are sacrosanct, indubitable and jolly. 

Darag? I am so, so, so, so disappointed in you.  

Come the day and come the hour, you will regret this ugliness. You should be standing shoulder to shoulder with the four proud provinces of Ireland. We are one! And your likes will never divide us!


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## Z100 (14 Feb 2007)

darag said:


> Amhran na bhFiann will always be played in Lansdown (or wherever)


 
PS Lansdown(e) should have an 'e'.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2007)

I think this thread has run its course.


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## darag (14 Feb 2007)

Bushfire said:
			
		

> PS Lansdown(e) should have an 'e'.


Good point.


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## Z100 (14 Feb 2007)

Purple said:


> I think this thread has run its course.


 
I second that emotion


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## Z100 (15 Feb 2007)

Darag, enjoyed your letter in the Irish Times (Feb 15):

Madam, - At the Ireland-France game last Sunday, the national anthem of the Republic of Ireland was played as well as the "Presidential Salute", with tricolours flying all around the ground. Yet there was no sign of any representation or support for the Northern Irish players or supporters. Why? Ahead of the game against England, many commentators are discussing whether or not _God Save the Queen _will be played for the England team. I have a more pertinent question: as the anthem of Northern Ireland, why wasn't it played last Sunday? I was under the impression that the team was supposed to represent both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, but there are no signs of this.

_Ireland's Call _was introduced as an anthem for all, yet it has been decided there is still the need for a rendition of _The Soldier's Song_. This has been justified as an expression of "respect" for the host nation. How about a bit of respect for Northern Ireland and its representatives on and off the field? Staging the game at the home of an openly sectarian organisation only adds to the intimidation. Even if they were encouraged to, how could Northern Irish people feel safe flying their flag? If the Ireland team is to represent two countries, then why are only one country's anthem and flag flown? Either have both or do away with them altogether. Yours, etc,

*Darag, AAM*

Just kiddin'* *


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## Betsy Og (15 Feb 2007)

GAA - Openly Sectarian?

Not officially (unlike, say, the Orange Order). I dont believe it has been sectarian in the South - e..g Jack Boothman, a president in the mid 90's or thereabouts, was a protestant, not that a big deal was ever made about it since it made no odds whatsoever. Sam Maguire was another.

As regards the North its fair to say that the nationalist community is its main constituent (which wouldnt necessarily, of itself, make it a sectarian organisation) but with the removal of the rule against security forces (never a good idea IMHO - only a PR disaster for a sports organisation) I dont believe the GAA deserves its former tag of "The IRA at play". 

Maybe its different on the ground in the North?, would it be a "cold place" for non-nationalists or, more specific to the allegation, non-catholics?

I would guess that, like rugby in the South, GAA in the North (particularly uban) is based around what schools you go to and if there was ever a case for "cross-community"/"non-denominational" education then surely its the North (ok, this is a separate issue but part of the bigger point).


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## CCOVICH (15 Feb 2007)

Betsy Og-are you responding to a point about the GAA made elsewhere in the thread?


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## Betsy Og (15 Feb 2007)

CCOVICH

See the post immediately under mine, which I gather is the reproduction of a letter from the Irish Times, and which states:

"Staging the game at the home of an openly sectarian organisation only adds to the intimidation. "


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## darag (15 Feb 2007)

That letter writer has far more in common with you, Bushfire, than me: presumptious, little  knowledge of the traditions of Irish rugby, no understanding of the relationship between Amhran na bhFiann and the Irish rugby team and the readiness to turn the simple issue of a song into some sort of political/sectarian debate.


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## CCOVICH (15 Feb 2007)

This thread has gotten too personal for my liking.  

Thread locked.


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