# Overdrawn due to bounced lodgement



## CP71 (15 May 2013)

Hi, I hope someone can give me some advice. My ex gave me a cheque for €20000 child maintenance a month ago. It was for 5 years of unpaid maintenance. It cleared straight away and I paid some overdue bills etc with it using about €7000 of it. On the 5th day of lodging the cheque it bounced. I rang my ex and basically got nowhere. He has since told me he didn't have the funds anyway. Solicitor says I can go to court but a piece of paper won't get me anything. I went into the bank and explained everything and applied for a loan for €13000 to help clear the overdraft. I had a spreadsheet done out up to 2015 with a rolling balance of everything coming in and going out, so they could see that I can afford the repayments. At the moment I can't access my wages and am depending on my parents until I get sorted for day to day expenses. Any direct debits I have for mortgage, electricity etc are being returned and the bank is charging me more than it would take to repay a loan every week.I have rang them every day for the last 2 weeks and they wont return my calls but keep sending me lettersdemanding I repay the full amount. (I would if I could). What should I do? I have 3 children one doing exams soon so I dont want to let him know whats going on.


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## Knuttell (15 May 2013)

First thing you need to do is get onto your HR dept and give them a new account number in a different Bank into which you can be paid and access your money.

Then you need to go to MABS and try and get them to negotiate on your behalf as they do not seem to want to negotiate in a meaningful manner with you.

I assume the cheque was paid as a result of some court ruling?No idea about your ex partners financials but he really needs to be helpig sort out this mess he has created.


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## Brendan Burgess (15 May 2013)

Knuttell said:


> Then you need to go to MABS and try and get them to negotiate on your behalf as they do not seem to want to negotiate in a meaningful manner with you.
> 
> .



I think that is totallly unfair to the bank.

The OP lodged a cheque. 
She paid out the bank's money to clear some bills. 
The cheque bounced. 
It is not the bank's fault. 

A person cannot use this device to force a loan from a bank. The bank are right to insist on immediate clearance of this unauthorised overdraft. 

Brendan


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## Setanta12 (15 May 2013)

I could be wrong but isn't knowingly writing a cheque like that a crime of some sorts ?


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## Negotiator (15 May 2013)

CP71 said:


> Hi, I hope someone can give me some advice. My ex gave me a cheque for €20000 child maintenance a month ago. It was for 5 years of unpaid maintenance. It cleared straight away and I paid some overdue bills etc with it using about €7000 of it. On the 5th day of lodging the cheque it bounced. I rang my ex and basically got nowhere. He has since told me he didn't have the funds anyway. Solicitor says I can go to court but a piece of paper won't get me anything. I went into the bank and explained everything and applied for a loan for €13000 to help clear the overdraft. I had a spreadsheet done out up to 2015 with a rolling balance of everything coming in and going out, so they could see that I can afford the repayments. At the moment I can't access my wages and am depending on my parents until I get sorted for day to day expenses. Any direct debits I have for mortgage, electricity etc are being returned and the bank is charging me more than it would take to repay a loan every week.I have rang them every day for the last 2 weeks and they wont return my calls but keep sending me lettersdemanding I repay the full amount. (I would if I could). What should I do? I have 3 children one doing exams soon so I dont want to let him know whats going on.



Not a nice predicament to be in. If your back is really against the wall and you  can't afford to use your salary to clear the loan short term, then set up a new back account and have your salary paid into it and set up all your DD's again as required. Then ask the banks to convert your overdraft to a term loan and repay it over the next 2 to 3 years at a reasonable rate. They may refuse at first but they will have no other choice if you persist.

Finally, you could seek summary judgement against your ex for the bounced cheque at a cost of about €1,000 (if undefended) which at least you might be able to use to recover the money owed to you. There are other costs involved if you wish to pursue the matter further after that but if he has assets or cash somewhere it might be worth your while.

Good luck!


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## CP71 (15 May 2013)

Thanks Knuttell. My solicitor actually suggested I do the same. I dont' want to hide from what I owe, I just don't have the means at the moment to repay it in full. I did ask how the cheque was cleared straight away and I had access to the money but I didn't really get an answer yet.
Brendan, I am not trying to force a loan out of the bank. I used _my money_ not the bank's to pay bills. Was it a banking error to give me access to the money immediately? The bank can insist on immediate clearance of the overdraft til the cows come home but I still can't come up the money. If they give me a loan they are making plenty of money in interest anyway


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## CP71 (15 May 2013)

Hi Negiotator,
I am very tempted now to open a new bank account and tell my existing bank that I will repay the overdraft weekly at the repayments they showed me when I applied for the loan.

I will look into the summary judgement, but I am afraid that the cost of persuing him will be too high for me.


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## Negotiator (15 May 2013)

CP71 said:


> Hi Negiotator,
> I am very tempted now to open a new bank account and tell my existing bank that I will repay the overdraft weekly at the repayments they showed me when I applied for the loan.
> 
> I will look into the summary judgement, but I am afraid that the cost of persuing him will be too high for me.



The bank will have little choice but to convert it to a term loan after a while. However be careful not to get penalized with the interest rate and or surcharges. Just keep requesting a term loan but ensure that it's within your repayment capacity.

With regards the judgement, yes it can be very expensive if you're not careful. Depending on your ex's situation, it may be of little use to you. However in some situations it can be very useful in recovering monies owed.


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## RichInSpirit (15 May 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I think that is totallly unfair to the bank.
> 
> The OP lodged a cheque.
> She paid out the bank's money to clear some bills.
> ...



Have to disagree with you there Brendan. 
The bank gave the lady the unauthorized loan.
Their operating policies could be questioned.

Anyway I'm guessing the bank is Bank of Ireland. Forget about contact with the branch. 
Ring the recovery department in Dublin directly and talk to them.


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## Knuttell (15 May 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> The cheque bounced.
> It is not the bank's fault.



It actually is their fault Brendan,she should have not have had access to the funds in the first place if the cheque hadn't cleared.


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## hippy1975 (15 May 2013)

Most accounts in Ireland now reflect cheque lodgements  immediately - for interest purposes and access to the funds - it does not mean the cheque has actually cleared as that can't occur until your bank presents the cheque back to the bank it's drawn on - which can be any length of time.  So not unusual that the OP had access to the funds before the cheque had actually cleared. Very unfortunate situation, definitely go after your ex as solicitor suggested


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## AgathaC (16 May 2013)

Hope you can get this resolved OP. As another poster suggested, may be worth trying direct contact with your existing bank's debt recovery area, branch staff seem to have very little decision making power nowadays.


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## mark1 (16 May 2013)

The bank shouldn't have allowed access to the funds until the cheque cleared and you did what anyone here would have if they had a mountain of bills and suddenly the means to pay them. Change your ac to another bank and work out what you can afford to repay and over what period of time. Put it in writing to them and you can be guaranteed it won't take them long to sit down with you then.once you change your ac you will have control over your own income and you won't look back.


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## Brendan Burgess (16 May 2013)

Knuttell said:


> It actually is their fault Brendan,she should have not have had access to the funds in the first place if the cheque hadn't cleared.



So what most of you would like is a banking system where the banks don't allow you access to your cheque lodgements until around 10 days after you make the lodgement? 

The banks should just ban cheques.  They can't win.  If they don't give people credit for them they get accused of profiteering. If they give credit and the cheque bounces, they get accused of reckless behaviour.


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## RichInSpirit (16 May 2013)

*Gardai*

The Op should probably report her ex to the Gardai over the bounced cheque. 
As far as I know it's an offence now to give a bounced cheque.


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## mark1 (16 May 2013)

If I lodge a cheque for €20000 into either bank I use it reads balance x + 20000, balance available x, until the cheque clears, perfectly acceptable. I think most people would be happy if banks follow their procedures. Maybe this lady's bank will have learned something from this.


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## cremeegg (16 May 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> So what most of you would like is a banking system where the banks don't allow you access to your cheque lodgements until around 10 days after you make the lodgement?
> 
> The banks should just ban cheques.  They can't win.  If they don't give people credit for them they get accused of profiteering. If they give credit and the cheque bounces, they get accused of reckless behaviour.



The issue here is that the banks don't clear cheques for 5 to 10 days. That is just ridiculous. How do they actually do the clearing, by donkey and cart? 

The banks should not allow people access to funds until they have cleared. And that should happen overnight.


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## Setanta12 (16 May 2013)

Back to the main point; I think she should let her fella know she's making a complaint to the Gardai and give him 2-3 days to come up with a real solution.


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## Bronte (16 May 2013)

Could someone clarify this up for me.  I understood in the past that you lodged a cheque to your account and even though it was not 'cleared' you had access to it, but I thought in the last few years that they didn't credit it to your account until it was cleared?  That you couldn't use it until then.  

If I remember correctly to get around this you 'cashed' the cheque and lodged the case which avoids long delays.  But you had to cash it at the bank where it was drawn (if you had an account there).


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## Knuttell (16 May 2013)

mark1 said:


> If I lodge a cheque for €20000 into either bank I use it reads balance x + 20000, balance available x, until the cheque clears, perfectly acceptable.



Thats the way I always understood it,not rocket science either,there is no way anyone should have access to funds that have not cleared otherwise you would have utter chaos.

Whats to stop me writing a cheque to my wife for 100k,she lodges & withdraws before the bank "clear it" and its on a jet plane to Australia never to return.


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## Brendan Burgess (16 May 2013)

cremeegg said:


> The issue here is that the banks don't clear cheques for 5 to 10 days. That is just ridiculous. How do they actually do the clearing, by donkey and cart?



A cheque is a paper document. 
It has to be moved around a number of locations.
It has to be processed. 
I think that if a cheque is to be bounced, the branch is notified and can take action e.g. contact the account holder. 

Sometimes the cheque is forged and is subsequently bounced after being credited. 

It's simpler to just ban cheques and force everyone into the 21st Century. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (16 May 2013)

Knuttell said:


> Thats the way I always understood it,not rocket science either,there is no way anyone should have access to funds that have not cleared otherwise you would have utter chaos.



The vast majority of cheques go through without a problem.  

I would suspect that the banks have procedures in place where a customer has a history of lodging bounced cheques, they don't give credit. 

If someone gets a cheque which they are unsure about, they can send it for special clearance. 

Brendan


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## demoivre (16 May 2013)

cremeegg said:


> The issue here is that the banks don't clear cheques for 5 to 10 days. That is just ridiculous. How do they actually do the clearing, by donkey and cart?



The  is far too slow imo. Banks are not obliged to  cheques immediately, sometimes they allow use of the funds in good faith as was the case here. If I was the OP I would be looking at alternative banking arrangements to deal with wages , mortgage payments etc. then I would deal with the overdrawn balance. Let them shout and roar for full payment, if you don't have it you can't pay it. Eventually they will come to some agreement with you as it's cheaper and quicker than going through the courts to get their money back.


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## Joe_90 (16 May 2013)

I can't see why the bank does not bounce the cheques that the OP wrote. 

If there were not sufficient cleared funds available to honour the cheques then is that not the reason they bounce the cheque.


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## cremeegg (16 May 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> A cheque is a paper document.
> It has to be moved around a number of locations.
> It has to be processed.
> I think that if a cheque is to be bounced, the branch is notified and can take action e.g. contact the account holder.
> ...



Could we wait on an alternative form of payment that has all the advantages of a cheque, to be developed, before we ban them Brendan please.

Cheques provide a clear record of payment, date, payee and anything else can be entered in the stub.

They can act as proof of payment where a receipt is not available, or just too awkward to keep.

In the last few days I used cheques twice.

To repay a small amount to a friend. Very awkward one that, if someone says to you "remember that €20 euro I gave you last month". I could never be sure if I had repaid them, I might remember paying or maybe I just planned to pay them. With a cheque the info is all there.

I gave a small amount to a local charity. If I had given that in cash it could easily have gone awol. With a cheque that is much less likely.

Thats just in the space of 10 days, I looked that up in my chequebook. 

Of course it would be great if we had a secure traceable recordable and convenient method of electronic payment. Perhaps phone to phone.

But hey Irish banks cannot even clear 19th century cheques in a few days, what chance 21st century technology.

Lets get the new car up and running before we shoot the donkey.


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## PadKiss (16 May 2013)

Hi CP71 you have a number of issues here outside of the discussion relating to the cheques issue which i think its better to address. 
1 is your bank the same as your ex (may be question to ask here with the 5 days)
2 Agree with the comment to change account for wages as this gives you control.
Your 'working' account should always be held in a different bank to your 'loan and mortgage bank' if possible
3 You need to cancel any direct debits that are presented as this is only causing charges to add up on both the debited account and the originating account (10 to 15 euro for each one)
4 in relation to the maintenance it works out at about 330 per month you need to make sure that this commences now as a monthly payment as per the terms of your agreement as the build up will be more difficult to retrieve
5 check out the position legal or otherwise he stands in with the comment 'He has since told me he didn't have the funds anyway' but wrote the cheque.
6 might seem a bit obvious but these are his kids also can you speak to a member of his family to get the matter resolved as this will not cost you money.
In Summary; The bank will come around to the idea of a monthly repayment as the intention and the result were not the same here on your part but you need to get back in control. i hope this helps you and good luck Padraic


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