# Legality of marriage



## MorrisDunn (9 Feb 2009)

Hypothetical situation. 

Irish citizen marries an americium citizen in the USA and then divorces her pursuant to American law and obtains a decree of divorce. Irish guy never sees or speaks to American ex wife ever again.
The same Irish citizen returns to Ireland and marries again telling the registrar that he was never married. Now he is divorced and free to remarry. This was in 2003.

Would his omission invalidate his Irish marriage? 

What penalty could he be facing?


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## mf1 (9 Feb 2009)

What a right mess! 

If the first Divorce was valid, then he should have just disclosed it. If it was not valid, he could then have tried to get a proper Divorce before marrying again. If it was valid, then why not disclose it? In any event, he committed perjury anyway by describing himself as never married. And if he was a bigamist ( by marrying  when already married) that is an offence. 

I reckon it comes down to what, if anything , he is afraid of! 

At worst, prosecution for perjury and/or bigamy - a little unlikely. Or, into the future real rows about his actual marital status and who may be entitled to inherit his estate. 

If that is his concern, he might like to do a little legal unravelling of his checkered marital history!

mf


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## MorrisDunn (9 Feb 2009)

Divorce was valid. No question of that. 

Problem arose when he went to remarry in Ireland. Registar was unwilling to marry him unless he said he was never married. The registar and present wife were well aware of the situation. 

There is no question of bigamy. He was divorced. He is to this day not on speaking terms with the ex wife so he is unable to get her birth cert. US authourities will not release a copy to him. The divorce decree by its self was not enough.

So is his marriage valid here?


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## bond-007 (9 Feb 2009)

Why were they seeking her birth cert? Surely the decree would be enough.


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## mf1 (10 Feb 2009)

" Registar was unwilling to marry him unless he said he was never married."

That is absolute nonsense. 

"Divorce was valid. No question of that. "

"The divorce decree by its self was not enough."

These two statements are contradictory. 

mf


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## Bronte (10 Feb 2009)

MorrisDunn said:


> Registar was unwilling to marry him unless he said he was never married. The registar and present wife were well aware of the situation.


  This cannot be true?  Why on earth would a registar do such a thing?  There is something else here that is not being disclosed.


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## truthseeker (10 Feb 2009)

Bronte said:


> This cannot be true? Why on earth would a registar do such a thing? There is something else here that is not being disclosed.


 
I agree, registrars dont agree to marry you if you 'say' you werent married, you are swearing an oath that you were not previously married. If a registrar knew that you were they wouldnt go ahead.

There is something fishy about this story.


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## csirl (10 Feb 2009)

Bronte said:


> This cannot be true? Why on earth would a registar do such a thing? There is something else here that is not being disclosed.


 
If someone was married previously, the registrar needs the paperwork to prove that they are legally divorced. They cannot let a previously married person remarry unless they have this proof.

As divorce & marriage laws are different in different parts of the world, the registrar needs to confirm that the divorce is legally recognised in this country.


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## bond-007 (10 Feb 2009)

Is this chap legally married, despite the fish smells?


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## Carey (10 Feb 2009)

bond-007 said:


> Is this chap legally married, despite the fish smells?


I would say yes, despite the smell of fish. If he was properly divorced the marriage is vaid. He was free to remarry. There could be the old perjury aspect but it is unlikely ever to surface.

If the Op is unsure he can get married again in the UK and produce the original decree. They won't look for the ex wifes birth cert or any else crazy and it is a straight forward procedure. Good luck it all.


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## csirl (10 Feb 2009)

> Or, into the future real rows about his actual marital status and who may be entitled to inherit his estate.


 
This is the real issue - whether his untruthfulness under oath invalids his Irish marriage. I could also see some issues in the future with someone producing his current marriage cert with previous history listed as never married and someone else producing a valid marriage cert  predating this - would make an interesting inheritance case.


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## bond-007 (10 Feb 2009)

How could he be still married to the first wife if a divorce decree is produced? I would be sure that the current wife has a copy of it.
I don't think your argument will hold water.


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## Bronte (10 Feb 2009)

bond-007 said:


> How could he be still married to the first wife if a divorce decree is produced? I would be sure that the current wife has a copy of it.
> I don't think your argument will hold water.


  I'm not sure of the current rules but there was a time when foreign divorces were not recognised.  So even if you had a valid divorce in one jurisdiction it didn't mean it was valid/recognised in Ireland.  

Csirl you misunderstood me, why would a registrar tell a person whom he knew to be divorced to state that he was never married.  I actually personally know someone who got married without a birth certificate.


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## kevv12 (10 Feb 2009)

A question I have ,if a marriage certificate in ireland has errors on it ,namely the DOB of both parties has been entered incorrectly,what is the procedure in rectifing this?Could the marraige be null and void if one party decided that he/she did not wish to have the certificate changed?


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## Dreamerb (10 Feb 2009)

kevv12 said:


> A question I have ,if a marriage certificate in ireland has errors on it ,namely the DOB of both parties has been entered incorrectly,what is the procedure in rectifing this?


Contact the registrar, provide the correct information, and they'll be able to do it. The Civil Registration Act 2004 allows correction of errors in the register.


kevv12 said:


> Could the marraige be null and void if one party decided that he/she did not wish to have the certificate changed?


I'd be astonished if it could be, and in fact once an error is brought to the Registrar's attention I don't think either party would be able to prevent the change being made.


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## csirl (10 Feb 2009)

> Csirl you misunderstood me, why would a registrar tell a person whom he knew to be divorced to state that he was never married. I actually personally know someone who got married without a birth certificate.


 
This makes no sense. I cant see a registrar doing this. This is being presented as a hypothetical case. Its clear that this would not happen as described as the registrar could not knowingly facilitate someone being untruthful on their cert. 

So the answer to the OP is that this hypotethical situation would never happen, so the questions dont need to be answered.


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## kevv12 (10 Feb 2009)

its not that the registrar facilitated this but an error was made when the cert was being filled out,what i am really trying to ask if after 10 years of marraige would both parties have to agree to the cert being changed or would it just be a formality,could one of the parties object to it being changed if the relationship had broken down?


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## Dreamerb (10 Feb 2009)

kevv12, csirl is replying to a different post. 

See my post above - and if this is not a hypothetical question, but one where you may actually need a definitive answer, you should contact your local registrar or the General Register Office. 

The GRO can be contacted here: http://www.groireland.ie/


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## MorrisDunn (10 Feb 2009)

csirl said:


> This makes no sense. I cant see a registrar doing this. This is being presented as a hypothetical case. Its clear that this would not happen as described as the registrar could not knowingly facilitate someone being untruthful on their cert.
> 
> So the answer to the OP is that this hypotethical situation would never happen, so the questions dont need to be answered.


It did happen. So not hypotethical at all.

A divorce from the USA is recongised here. The USA is hardly a third world state, although Ireland is a ultra right wing state that defends marriage in all its forms to the hilt. 

In the absence of a real answer, I think the best course of action is to go to Gretna Green and get married again.


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## pugwall (10 Feb 2009)

Hi MorrisDunn

There are a number of issues that need to be looked at here;

Frist; You signed a caution stating that everything you tell the registrar is true. You would have also signed a declaration of no impediment which states “ there is no impediment of kindred, alliance or any other lawful hindrance to the marriage” this implies that you are
-Not related 
-Free to marry and never been married before
-No other hindrance, so that you’re over 18 and there is no reason why you can’t marry your current partner.

So, the fact that you didn’t declare that you were divorced would be false information, this can result in the file being sent to the GRO (General Registrar Office) it will be then be up to the GRO to look at your case and can refer it to the Gardai. They will see if they can clear the divorce first and you will probably be let off with a caution.  

In relation to the American divorce and its recognition, any divorce that is granted outside the 26 counties must be checked by the GRO to establish that it is valid under Irish law. In relation to your case the divorce is based on domicile. This is the reason why the registrar would have looked for the ex spouse’s birth cert, in order for the American divorce to be recognised by the GRO your ex-spouse must be from the STATE that granted the divorce. (please note that if BOTH of you were American the divorce would be recognised in any case)

e.g. If you ex-spouse was born in the State of New York and your divorce was granted in Florida, due to domicile the GRO will not recognise the divorce.

You can prove ex-spouses birth place with any of the following
-Certified copy of Passport
-Original / Certified Birth Certificate 
-The US marriage certificates are very detailed and would state the place of birth of both parties on it.
-If you have any children their birth certificates may have the birth place of both parents.

Next step is to seek recognition of the foreign divorce through the Irish courts under the Family Law Act 1995 Section 29. 
The Family Law Office are based in Smithfield and they are very helpful in relation to issues like this their number is 01 8886810

Good Luck
Pugwall


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## bond-007 (10 Feb 2009)

> e.g. If you ex-spouse was born in the State of New York and your divorce was granted in Florida, due to domicile the GRO will not recognise the divorce.


People do move. A person could be born in one state and then move away for good even at a very young age. I don't see how that would be an issue. I would say that it would be matter for the courts. 

The OP could easily go the UK where the divorce would be recognised on production of the divorce decree without question of where the other spouse was born and marry again. Ireland would then have to recognise that marriage?


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## Carey (10 Feb 2009)

I agree with bond-007. It would be a farce not to recognise a divorce lawfully granted in the USA. Does that mean he is not married in the USA and still Married here? Pure madness.

I happen to have a US divorce, I live in the UK. My ex was born in California but she lived all her life in Oregon. Now the courts in California would not deal with any divorce request as neither party was resident there. So I had to use the Oregon courts. Now you are saying that because someone was born in a different state the divorce is not valid. That is madness. 

I would advise the OP to go to Las Vegas and get married there. They have will have no problems recognising your divorce. Ireland will have no choice but to accept the marriage afterwards.


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## Bronte (11 Feb 2009)

And in some parts of the world single sex partners can legally get married but that doesn't mean it's valid in Ireland.  Same for divorce, you have to be very careful that the Irish state recognises the validity of a foreign divorce or a foreign marriage for that matter.


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## bond-007 (11 Feb 2009)

They will recognise any marriage between a man and a woman provided the laws of the state where the marriage took place were complied with. That is a general catch all.


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