# Rip Off Republic - Episode #2 - review



## Debasser

A tad disappointing I think. Some of the examples were a bit odd like comparing the SA price of film to the Irish price. 
Personally I find pub prices too high & don't frequent them too often but I think Eddies analysis last night was flawed in that it didn't show the whole picture. 
Overall all the arguments were made about pub prices but I think it was how it was put together that disappointed me.

What did you all think?

(BTW I feel we've discussed Eddies background enough & would like to keep this discussion to the actual program thx.all !!)


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## Brendan Burgess

I think it is astonishing and great the way RTE has actually allowed a programme which slates the Government so much. It's described as "RTE Factual". It should be RTE Polemic. 

In fact, it could also be renamed - Start Your Own Business. Where you see an alleged rip-off, then that means that there is a great business opportunity to be exploited.

Last week, we learned that we could buy cement in Germany for €45, pay transport costs of €10, and then sell it here for €85. There are no import controls, so what are we all waiting for? Let's stop complaining about rip-off Ireland and get in on the act. 

Last night, we all learned that the restaurant business was really profitable. I would like to see a proper study of restaurants in Ireland. Maybe identify around 20 restaurants setting up around now and see how long they last and how profitable they are. 

Eddie was very seriously incorrect in his analysis of the bottle of wine. He either doesn't understand how VAT works, or oversimplified it to a ridiculous extent that it was completely misleading it. He also got his mark-ups wrong. He said, that the mark-up was 340%. The correct mark-up, again in the example he gave, was 240%. 

What worries me is that if he gets these details so badly wrong, I don't have confidence in the other numbers he quotes. 

But the viewers won't worry about this. We believe that we are being ripped off and Eddie has reinforced that view. 

Brendan


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## Jister

I mentioned on an earlier thread about the 3 shops in a small village, they are very expensive and offer a poor service. There are no restrictions on new entrants to the shop market.

Anyway my point is that new pub licences will not mean lower prices. If i open a new pub I will spend so much on construction costs, fit outs, advertising, mortgage etc. etc. I will not be able to undercut the competition.


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## Ceist Beag

Brendan, I'm surprised that you seem to be nit picking bits from the show to back up an argument against it? Eddie never said that restaurants were really profitable - in fact I think if you watched it you would see that he said that any restauranter would tell you that they only made 3 cent profit for each euro they take in - not a big margin by any means. What he did state was that they made a huge profit on wine sales - and I think he pointed out exactly why he believed that - do you have facts to show that he was wrong on this? Was he wrong in stating that the excise per bottle is €2.05? Why not point out exactly what he stated that was seriously incorrect - I'm curious!


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## Teabag

I thought the main thrust of last nights show was that the government put a halt to Michael Mac's cafe-bar licenses. I thought at the time that this was a disgrace personally. Was is the situation with the cafe-bar licenses now anyway ? Are they dead in the water ?


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## evan

I think eddie is spot on. He is hitting the nail on the head. This country is being run by vested interests. The vested intersts try and confuse the public with jargon in order to cloud the issue. He was very effective in shooting down the publicans argument that more pub licences would cause more alcoholism. I think it is the first time I have seen politicians really ridiculed and exposed since scrap saturday. It seems that competition is OK when the lowly manufacturing jobs are being lost to China but when it affects publicans, pharmacists or lawyers then the politicians row in to protect their friends.


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## CCOVICH

Brendan said:
			
		

> I think it is astonishing the way RTE has actually allowed a programme which slates the Government so much. It's described as "RTE Factual". It should be RTE Polemic.


 
This is exactly the point I made last week, or two weeks ago. It is basically Eddie v. the government, but sure why not. It's better than bloody 'Celebrity' You're a Star, or whatever that muck that was on all last week was.

But I think the cafe bar piece was well done-ridiculous pandering to vested interests by the government.

On the subject of pubs, yes the prices are generally high, but I tend to try and avoid the more 'trendy' places that charge over the odds for the same crap you get in most of the taps over here. Or I buy beers on promotion on my local off licence.

What really annoys me though (sorry if this is OT, but I think it has some relevance) is when pubs put up their prices for certain events, the most obvious example is for the Six Nations, when Ingerland come to Dublin. Now, I know that pubs can charge whatever they want as long as they display their prices, but this is profiteering at its worst/best. How can you justify raising prices when demand is higher, and you know you are going to have a bumper day as you will sell so much in quantity terms anyway? Do pubs have higher costs on these days? I'm sure they do (extra staff, extra security, extra glass breakage etc.), but I would imagine that these costs would be more than offset by the huge volumes achieved over the course of the day.

Why must publicans take the piss? If it was such an unprofitable business, we wouldn't have pubs in Dublin changing hands for millions of euro on a regular basis. I don't see much evidence of pubs in Dublin going to the wall due to the smoking ban? If margins are reduced, tough. The governemnt are constantly finding ways to reduce consumers margins (through indirect taxes), so why shouldn't they do the same to business? Find some way of attracting customers other than the promise of a smoke filled atmosphere. Surely less staff are needed to collect and empty ashtrays? That should cut your costs slightly. Start offering more food-people will be more willing to eat it in a clean environment.

Rant over .


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## Brendan Burgess

Hi Ceist

I don't regard it as nit-picking at all! The figures which I could check were just plain wrong. To me, that is serious. 

I didn't give the figures as I thought that the details would bore people, but here you are as you asked for them:

Producer's cost             2.05
Transport from France       .4
Excise duty                 2.05
Distributor's cost          1.35
VAT                         1.23
Total cost to restraurant   7.08
Mark-up = profit           16.92
Selling price              24.00

Unless the restaurant business operates differently from all the other businesses with which I am familiar, the VAT is charged on the selling price and so should be €4.16 ( 24*21/121)

Assuming that my understanding of VAT is wrong and that Eddie's is correct, his calculation of mark-up is incorrect anyway. 16.92 is 240% of 7.08 and not 340%. 

If my understanding of VAT is correct, then the correct figures for profit are as follows:

Producer's cost             2.05
Transport from France        .4
Excise duty                 2.05
Distributor's cost          1.35
VAT                            0
Total cost to restraurant   5.85

Profit                     13.98

Net selling price           19.83


This is not nit-picking. He spent a lot of time on this and appears to me to have got it completely wrong. 

Why is this important? There are many rip-offs in Ireland but if we label everything a rip-off, we will be unable to focus on the real rip-offs. 

Brendan


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## Teabag

Looking back, Minister Martin had some neck bringing in the smoking ban. I fully supported it and while he did get a lot of abuse from publicans, God only knows how much pressure was put on him by his own party members and other vested interests. 
And then I thanked him by sending him a nappy.....

Michael MacDowell's cafe-bar venture was probably seen as a step too far and was forcibly quashed.


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## Noor77

I think it is very easy to criticise what Eddie is doing. What is really important is that the message is finally getting out, to a wider arena, that this country is still run on a "who you know" basis, where vested interests get the final say in many areas.


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## Brendan Burgess

Just to clarify my original point where I thought it was astonishing that RTE allowed this programme. I have edited this to make the point that it is astonishing *and great* that they allowed this programme. 

The RTE legal team is usually very careful about any criticisms. It's unusual to see the likes of Musgraves named in an RTE programme. 

On another issue, what is the story with pub licenses? Has it not changed recently? Can I not go down the country and buy a pub license for €180k and open a pub in Dublin with it?  The total number of pub licenses in Ireland is limited, but I don't think that there is any limit on the number of pubs in Dublin. 

Brendan


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## terrysgirl33

I quite enjoyed the programme, but there seemed to be a lot of sensationalist price comparisons, no 'balance' from the publicans or other businesses, and there was nothing telling you how you could get around the high prices.  

Haircuts are a particular annoyance of mine, as I have short hair and need to get it cut every two months or so to keep it looking as I wish.  The last two times I paid €25 for a haircut, but wasn't very happy so I'll have to keep looking.  However, the last time I paid for a visit to a hairdresser, it was €43, nearly two years ago, and I haven't been to a regular hairdresser since, I just can't afford it!!

I would like if Eddie would stop only complaining and start coming up with solutions!!!


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## elcato

> What really annoys me though (sorry if this is OT, but I think it has some relevance) is when pubs put up their prices for certain events, the most obvious example is for the Six Nations, when Ingerland come to Dublin.


Hear hear !


> we wouldn't have pubs in Dublin changing hands for millions of euro on a regular basis. I don't see much evidence of pubs in Dublin going to the wall due to the smoking ban?


In the interest of balance a pub in Camden street was recently sold for a difference of 800k higher than what they paid three years ago. They put in a least 1 million in doing it up and the current turnover is nearly halved. My heart bleeds but it should be pointed out. Of course we should also point out that the prices on takeover went up 20c a pint and are 40c a pint dearer now so Eddie's call aboyt publicans reaction to drop in turnover was to inbcrease prices rather than drop them is a reasonable one.


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## Humpback

terrysgirl33 said:
			
		

> no 'balance' from the publicans or other businesses,


 
Given the fact that the publicans have their own organisation with their own media people, who no doubt are currently preparing their response to Eddie personally (as some people are trying to do here), or to the content of the show, it's about time someone took the time to present nationally the plight of the consumer. We only ever hear the professional responses from the publicans, IBEC etc.

If our Consumers Assocation of Ireland had more teeth, we wouldn't need a show like this to open our eyes or to make others aware of what's going on. We should be hearing this stuff every week from Dermott Jewell and his crew.



			
				terrysgirl33 said:
			
		

> there was nothing telling you how you could get around the high prices.


 
If memory serves, he did highlight the futility of trying to shop around when out buying a pint!!


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## Ceist Beag

Thanks for the breakdown Brendan, I wasn't aware of that and it is good to point out where Eddie is mistaken or just plain wrong with his figures. My point about nit picking was that you claimed that Eddie was showing that restaurants and used the wine example to prove this - whereas he never said this, just that the wine markup was excessive. Anyways, must say I enjoyed the first show but found nothing in last nights show really that I didn't really know already - but agree with him about the cafe bars - surely the punters should be given a choice.


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## Jister

Brendan said:
			
		

> On another issue, what is the story with pub licenses? Has it not changed recently? Can I not go down the country and buy a pub license for €180k and open a pub in Dublin with it? The total number of pub licenses in Ireland is limited, but I don't think that there is any limit on the number of pubs in Dublin.
> 
> Brendan


 
I believe this is the case now, licenses are transferrable anywhere. 

However we could also argue that this is a bad thing.

I know a village which once had 2 pubs but both have now been closed. So the population are being forced to drink and drive. More deaths, more accidents, more burden on the hospitals, more expense for you and me, higher taxes, more ripoffs.


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## CCOVICH

terrysgirl33 said:
			
		

> I would like if Eddie would stop only complaining and start coming up with solutions!!!


 
Why should it be up to Eddie to come up with solutions? What influence does he have on the price of a haircut?  

Eddie is highlighting some of the reasons why we have high prices/rip-offs (call them what you will).  It's up to consumers to decide what they want to do:


shop around 
forgo whatever it is they feel is a rip-off
lobby the government to take action against retailers
vote the current government out of office in the next election and hope that a new governmeny will be pro-consumer and look at the taxes on goods and services


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## Betsy Og

Last nights show was good, but probably not up to the standard of the first show .... hmmm (as he incessantly said himself!!)

Drink has been a fairly transparent rip-off with donkeys years, thats why there was no great eye openers last night.
I think that there was one net development out of the McDowell thing which was that all restaurants are or are to be allowed to sell drink (all drink, not just wine) with meals. Surely this is a cafe bar by another name for those who want to take that opportunity. A "friends" style restuarant with comfy couches, punters quaffing their tipple while surrounding the 1 plate of chips (Spanish student like !!). I think this was missed.
Dont think there was any point in abusing McDowell re how the deal went down, wasnt it plain as day that he couldnt push it through due to the FF revolt - is he to be blamed for that  ... and I should point out that I'm not McDowell's no. 1 fan or anything like it, but credit (or lack of abuse) where its due.

Brendan - your VAT understanding is correct - technically the distributor would charge VAT but the retailer would recover it so, effectively, a nil VAT charge in the middle, and the 21% VAT comes off the sales price to Joe Punter.


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## ClubMan

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> If memory serves, he did highlight the futility of trying to shop around when out buying a pint!!


If he did say this then it's patently rubbish. I can buy a pint of _Guinness _for anything from €3.20 up to probably something near a fiver depending on where I go in the central postal districts of _Dublin _(e.g. 1, 2, 4, 7 etc.). I personally don't consider pints at the lower prices a rip-off. I would tend not to pay a fiver for a pint though. Ultimately I don't really need pints and the purchase is purely discretionary so I can always take it or leave it. There is some great value to be had on beers in off licenses and supermarkets these days for those that can't go without and are amenable to drinking at home or outdoors.


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## Janet

I heard this bit while doing some tidying (so wasn't actually watching) - he had a few lads down in Cork I think, asked them to go and try and get the cheapest pint of Murphys they could, including haggling over the price every time.  Don't think there were huge discrepancies in pricing but can't actually remember the prices.  Thought it was hilarious that some of them we able to haggle 10c of the price of a pint - funny exercise but probably not something that's ever going to happen a lot in real life.


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## terrysgirl33

Well, the example of trying to shop around for a pint was funny!!

I did enjoy the show, I just came away feeling like I heard nothing new.  I don't like pub prices, and don't go to them any more.  I know what you mean about the publicans having their own (very efficiant) organisation, the program just seemed a bit boring with only one side being presented, a good row would have livened it up!

I'm 'working' on solutions myself, but a few suggestions would have been nice...  Though I realise that wasn't the point of the show...


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## daltonr

I think the confusion about the markup on the bottle of wine is Eddie's Fault (or his fact checkers).   I can see where he got his figures from.   The selling price of the Wine (Excluding VAT - €19.83) is roughly 3.4 times (340%) the cost.

Brendan's point is that the profit €13.98 is only about 2.4 times (240%) the cost.   I.e.  if I sell something for twice the price I buy it Eddie would say my Markup is 200% when it's only 100%.

A fairly simple and silly mistake ot make, but not one I'm concerned about.   The lobby groups and vested interests are equally capable and willing of bending figures often more intentionally and more misleadingly.   I'm more concerned with the overall thrust and effect of the show and I think it's excellent.

For a good description of how *experts* and lobbly groups misread or misrepresent *Facts* check out Freakonomics by Stephen Levitt.

If Eddit is taking certain liberties intentionally or otherwise it's regrettable because there's enough in the facts to be shocking without glossing it.   But at least in this instance public opinion is being driven in a good direction by such tactics.

-Rd


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## jem

daltonr said:
			
		

> I think the confusion about the markup on the bottle of wine is Eddie's Fault (or his fact checkers).   I can see where he got his figures from.   The selling price of the Wine (Excluding VAT - €19.83) is roughly 3.4 times (340%) the cost.
> 
> Brendan's point is that the profit €13.98 is only about 2.4 times (240%) the cost.   I.e.  if I sell something for twice the price I buy it Eddie would say my Markup is 200% when it's only 100%.
> 
> A fairly simple and silly mistake ot make, but not one I'm concerned about.



but It is a major mistake and majes a major difference say an item costing €100 the sale price with 100% mk up is €200 while @200% it is €300 a dam big difference.




			
				daltonr said:
			
		

> If Eddit is taking certain liberties intentionally or otherwise it's regrettable because there's enough in the facts to be shocking without glossing it.   But at least in this instance public opinion is being driven in a good direction by such tactics.
> 
> -Rd


How is it good for public opinion being driven my misleading facts. This is simply wrong. The end justifies the means etc etc.
I have said it before and I will say it again there is no such thing as Rip off Ireland, some prices are too high, but the market dictates the price. The only way to reduce prices is to reduce costs, the bigest cost to most business is wages. Hand up how many are willing to take a pay cut to bring down prices. What no hands!!!!


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## ClubMan

> Brendan's point is that the profit €13.98 is only about 2.4 times (240%) the cost. I.e. if I sell something for twice the price I buy it Eddie would say my Markup is 200% when it's only 100%.
> 
> A fairly simple and silly mistake ot make


Surely not a mistake that an [broken link removed] should make though?!


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## daltonr

> I have said it before and I will say it again there is no such thing as Rip off Ireland, some prices are too high, but the market dictates the price.



you are just plain wrong. the cost of living has increased without an equivalent increase in quality of life.  the result is that other countries represent better value. Ireland as a whole is poor value for money.  that's what is meant by ripoff ireland.

incidently i think tax and rates etc runs a very close second in terms of costs and provides far less return on investment than salaries.

for what it's worth i've dropped my take home pay in each of the last 2 years and will again this year.

there is very bad cycle of inflation being used to justify wage increases which in turn drives inflation.  but i don't think it's fair to lay all the blame for ripoff ireland on wages.

the fact is the government is as guilty or more guilty through their policies.

-rd


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## soc

I thought that it was interesting that there were no ad breaks whatsoever in the program...  That's the first time I've seen that on an RTE channel.

-soc


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## jem

daltonr said:
			
		

> you are just plain wrong. the cost of living has increased without an equivalent increase in quality of life.  the result is that other countries represent better value. Ireland as a whole is poor value for money.  that's what is meant by ripoff ireland.


Sorry rd , I am not wrong. the standard of living now as opposed to say 1984 for example. Inflation was running at 10.1 %, Single Income tax rates were as follows :
first £4000@35%, 
next £2000@45%
next £2000@55%
next £2000@60%
balance@65%

Unemployment stood at 17%
immigration was the order of the day.
hospital closures were on the horison, most people had sfa.
Ireland now is booming, how many family's had 2 cars then as opposed to now, how many went on one holiday out of the country , as opposed to how many go on mulitple holidays.
I could go on an on.
The standard of living in the past 21 years has risen dramatically. 
It is time to stop the rants Rd, I for one am geting very tired of it. If Ireland is sooooo bad and the grass is so green elsewheree move. Just lay off the rants.


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## ClubMan

jem said:
			
		

> immigration was the order of the day.


I presume you mean emigration?


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## podgerodge

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> What really annoys me though (sorry if this is OT, but I think it has some relevance) is when pubs put up their prices for certain events, the most obvious example is for the Six Nations, when Ingerland come to Dublin. Now, I know that pubs can charge whatever they want as long as they display their prices, but this is profiteering at its worst/best. How can you justify raising prices when demand is higher, and you know you are going to have a bumper day as you will sell so much in quantity terms anyway?




But no-one argues when hotels change room rates based on seasonal demand?


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## Jister

Or now when I am paying €187 for car insurance, let them keep charging kids €2000 as long as mine stays low forever


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## Humpback

podgerodge said:
			
		

> But no-one argues when hotels change room rates based on seasonal demand?


 
Or when Ryanair jack up flights to Liverpool when the local teams play, or to Toulouse when Munster are playing.

Supply and demand!!! There's nothing wrong with that at all. As long as if there are rules to follow with regards to pricing displays, and therefore customers are aware of such things, then fine. We, as customers, then have the choice to pay or not.


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## Magoo

jem said:
			
		

> The only way to reduce prices is to reduce costs


 
But if you're operating in a monopoly or any other restricted market, the costs are less relevant.  In these cases, your prices are based on the limit to which people will go.  Costs plus a reasonable margin would be acceptable.

In country towns, ther are a lot more pubs per head of population and the owners make good, if unspectaclar, profits.  This is how it should be.


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## Noor77

There are definitely rip-offs out there...but a lot of the time we don't help ourselves by our actions. If you think a pub charges too much for drinks, dont go to it; if your local political representative has vested interests in everything from the supermarket to the golfcourse, don't vote for them - and tell them why you are not going to! People power can achieve an awful lot, sometimes I think we forget this


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## shnaek

"I have said it before and I will say it again there is no such thing as Rip off Ireland, some prices are too high, but the market dictates the price."

The market is distorted in Ireland by lack of competition. I think that is one of the things Eddie was trying to highlight. The power to make decisions is in the hands of the small few. Every town has it's three or four controlling businesspoeple/politicians. In the town I am from the main property developer is also one of the big names in politics. Look at the case with the pub in Mountmellick on last nights show. 

The market may dictate the proce in Ireland, but it is not a free market. And certainly government have a big hand in dictating some prices (eg cars) so I have to go with my belief that many things in Ireland are indeed a rip off.


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## elcato

> Or when Ryanair jack up flights to Liverpool when the local teams play, or to Toulouse when Munster are playing.





> But no-one argues when hotels change room rates based on seasonal demand?


Sorry but not the same here guys. When you book a hotel or flight you are aware before travel of the deal. On the other hand if you suddenly leave a pub in town or leave Navan and go to Lansdowne road you are not aware of price hiking till its too late to turn back or indeed most tourists/non locals would not even be aware that the prices have just been hicked up for the day anyway.
As an aside I have to laugh at people who represent the tourist industry who say the numbers are down this year and still charge way too much for a room. My heart also bleeds for these guys. Maybe the argument should read rip off Irish .......


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## legend99

Lads, all i can say is that the program comes accross as a program for kids who are being talked down to by a lofty school teacher.
Bottom line, the guy isn't a great TV presenter. I felt compelled to switch off the TV last night it got so annoying. 


Dumbest moment of the program. The Nun who runs the treatment centre saying that Dublin was the biggest catchment area for people who had drink issues. the greater Dublin area probably has half the population of the country at this stage....its not exactly a shocker to see the biggest population centre by far ,providing the biggest number of people to a treatment program!

i should say, i find him not so bad on say radio programs where he is being controlled by the interviewer(more or less). But I do think hes suffering a bit of pop staritis....next thing he'll be bleaching the hair.

Next, with the public profile and hero status he has for a lot of people now, people will be collecting hankies that he has dabbed his forehead with...


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## Carpenter

I think that some of this is very harsh, he has probably done more to heighten the Irish consumer's awareness of consumer issues than, say Dermot Jewell or Mary (Momma!) Harney et al.  Surely this is no bad thing?  I don't think it is EH intention to be the nominated spokesperson or champion for the consumer; he saw an important issue which wasn't being addressed by the most accessible meda avenue available, TV and he decided to do something about it.  It is certainly more worthwhile (even as a TV programme only) than say You're a Star etc!  It might border on the pedantic at times but I would like to see how the show develops over the coming weeks.


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## daltonr

> Sorry rd , I am not wrong. the standard of living now as opposed to say 1984 for example.


 
Jem

Why do you and Brendan insist on comparing Ireland of today with Ireland of the 80's?  Compare Ireland of today with the rest of the world today.   Your logic would claim that Ireland has a state of the art Health Service because compared to Healthcare 100 years ago it's great.   It's a nonsense.

If your claims of no Rip-off can't stand up to scrutiny in the world we currently live in then going back 20 years to find somewhere worse to compare with really weakens your argument.   Why not go back 100 years and the Ireland of today would be Utopia?

You and the Other Mods (in the main) are in a tiny minority of claiming that there is no Rip-Off Ireland.   This seems to be because of a very narrow definition of what constitutes a rip-off (I.e. If the prices are in plain view you can't by definition be ripped off).    

I've stated my definition of Rip-Off Ireland.   Higher Cost of Living with lower quality of life than other comparible countries.   I've stated why I believe this to be the case to much intervention and downright stupid intervention by government.

Of course Ireland has a higher standard of Living than Ireland of the 1980's I have never ever even once claimed that Ireland was a better place at any time in it's past.



> It is time to stop the rants Rd, I for one am geting very tired of it. If Ireland is sooooo bad and the grass is so green elsewheree move. Just lay off the rants.


 
It's absolutely not time to stop.   I've been consistently saying the same thing for two years and RTE have finally gotten around to airing a show that says pretty much the same thing.   Sorry if I bored you by being ahead of the curve.

Just because you don't like your precious government being criticised doesn't mean the criticisms aren't valid.

How about instead of telling me to be quiet you address the substance of the argument instead of dragging us back to 1984 with meaningless comparisons?

Rip-Off Ireland is:   Higher Cost of Living, Poor Value for money.   Caused by our governments over focus on economy and under focus on society.

-Rd


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## Noor77

legend99 said:
			
		

> I felt compelled to switch off the TV last night it got so annoying.


 
Why didn't you turn it off then?

I think we should try and move away from the format and style of the programme (which I am none too enamoured of either, and I was in the audience for one episode) and concentrate on the message it conveys. I think as a nation we are generally quite happy to complain about being ripped off but not very motivated or mobilised when it comes to doing something about this highly problematic area. We need to start boycotting products and services that we feel are ripping us off. I for one would not drink in a pub that was owned by a political representative, nor would I shop in a shop owned by one.


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## CCOVICH

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Or when Ryanair jack up flights to Liverpool when the local teams play, or to Toulouse when Munster are playing.


 
I, for one, avoid flying at peak times to avoid paying over the odds.  Ditto for hotels in high season.  Why would I pay a higher price for the same service?



			
				ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Supply and demand!!! There's nothing wrong with that at all. As long as if there are rules to follow with regards to pricing displays, and therefore customers are aware of such things, then fine. We, as customers, then have the choice to pay or not.


 
I think there is something wrong with it-like I said before it's profiteering.  Say you're a tourist, or god forbid, you are one of the few Irish people lucky enough to get a ticket for a Six Nations match.  Where would you go before the match-Quinns in Drumcondra or Smyths in Ballsbridge?  You would more than likely go to Smyths in Ballsbridge, wouldn't you?  So you go to Smyths.  You walk in.  The price list is clearly displayed (I know, that's a bit of an assumption....), and to your amazement, the price of a pint is 30c higher than it was less than 48 hours ago in the same place.  What do you do?  For the weekend that's in it, you would really like to have a few pints and a bit of craic with your mates, but don't really feel like a pint today is worth more than a pint last week, or than a pint will cost on Monday morning.  You can:
(a)  Pay the barman €5.10 for a warm plastic tumbler of beer.
(b)  Jump in a taxi, head over to Quinns and get your pint for €4.70.  You can then get a taxi back to Landsdowne for the game (p.s. you can't get the DART because of some damn strike).  Funny though, there's not much happening in Quinns, nobody in there seems too interested in the game, it's a bit dead really.
(c)  Forget the pint.  Just go to the ground, take your seat, watch the match, and go straight home.  Nobody is going to take advantage of someone as smart as you.

So RDJ (and anyone likeminded), if (c) is your solution, fine.  We're not talking about feckin' bottles of Kristal here, just a pint.  The same crap the pub sells every other day, but today is different.  Today pub owner will make more money than any other day in the year (bar New Years' eve maybe), but why should they not strive to make even more?  That's the free market I guess, fair enough.

God help this country if we ever go to war.  I dread to think how retailers would react to rationing and shortages. (Of course they would raise their prices, but by how much?)


----------



## Teabag

Legend, I agree with a lot of things you say but I dont think the show is about what people think of Eddie Hobbs ? 

Its a 4 part programme which bravely tries to show the Irish people how we are ripped off and some of the causes for the rip-offs.

I think its self-defeating if we spend our time criticising the show's format or 'presenter' or each other instead of exploring ways of tackling the problem.


----------



## legend99

Noor77 said:
			
		

> Why didn't you turn it off then?
> 
> I think we should try and move away from the format and style of the programme (which I am none too enamoured of either, and I was in the audience for one episode) and concentrate on the message it conveys. I think as a nation we are generally quite happy to complain about being ripped off but not very motivated or mobilised when it comes to doing something about this highly problematic area. We need to start boycotting products and services that we feel are ripping us off. I for one would not drink in a pub that was owned by a political representative, nor would I shop in a shop owned by one.



i did switch it off.....and I wonder to be honest if the viewing numbers will hold up for the 4 programs.
he is not a natural at presenting TV programs.


----------



## jem

ah yes I forgot airfares.
I remember back in the mid 80's where the most popular way to get to london from Ireland was the slattery's bus treck,bus ferry, bus the whole way down to London from hollyhead. The reason was the fact that the cost of travelling by plane was so high.
Now we read about the popular weekend shopping trip to NEW YORK USA. if you said this would be the case in the 80's u would have been locked up.

I started work in 1986 and was paid the sum of £34.50 per week for a 40 hour week.
There were q's to get work, here in Roscrea there was a waiting list to get a summmer job in the local bacon factory and in reality you needed to be related to someone to get in. For the past 2 years the management had to go to the check rep. to get students for summer work. But sure everything is far worse now.....
Lads its time to bin the rose coloured glases.

We went over to the UK for a holiday a few weeks ago, reading the Liverpool eco 1 story about people being on hospital trolly for 6 weeks, yes 6 weeks.
Another story about GP only ment to have 1200 paitents on his books , he had over 2500 because he had no other choice not enough GP's. In order to get an appointment( yes you cant walk in off the street) you needed to book 5-6 weeks in advance. Iam sorry but I don't know whether or not I will have a dodgy stomack in 6 weeks or not but I had better make an apppointment just in case. There is no way we would put up with that here.
Was talking to a friend of mine recently about an old class mate who now lives in NY. he has a serious operation and when his health insurance ran out before he was better he was kicked out of the hospital anyway, he had to go back to his appartment and have friends come over when they could to keep an eye on him, get him his meals, help him to the shower etc, Would anyone be kicked out of a hospital after a serious operation because their vHI wouldn't cover any more expense. I don't think so.This wasn't a "private Hospital" like here it was a normal hospital like tallagh etc.
 But sure every where else is better than here.


----------



## Noor77

jem said:
			
		

> ah yes I forgot airfares.
> I remember back in the mid 80's where ...
> 
> if you said this would be the case in the 80's ...
> 
> I started work in 1986 ...


 
Will somebody please get this guy the tardis from Doctor Who so he can GO back to the 1980's. Looking back 20 years ago is hardly the point of the discussion on Rip Off Republic. We are talking about the HERE AND NOW


----------



## daltonr

> But sure everything is far worse now.....
> Lads its time to bin the rose coloured glases.


 
I'm still waiting for an answer Jem.   Where has ANYONE claimed that Ireland of 
the 80's was better?   

Bin the FF Green tinted glasses and answer the actual points raised, stop making up arguments about the 80's that you feel you can win.   Oldest politicians trick in the book is answering a question you weren't asked.   Are you planning a run for office?

-Rd


----------



## legend99

I'd love to see him have the balls to point out that if you want to get RTE from sat. you have to pay nearly 30 euro a month to Sky for the privelge.

With our terrain, loads of people have brutal TV reception and RTE could have fixed this with sat. filling in the gaps. I wouldn't even mind say a surcharge for a special viewing card that you bought along with your TV licence once a year for 20 quid along the lines of freeSat in the UK...but instead because I live in a crap terrestrial reception area i have to pay 360 euro a year to Sky.

So go on Eddie....lets see you take on the hand that feeds if you're that much of a champion...


----------



## Betsy Og

I agree with a lot of DaltonR's comments. Fine to say that prices are transparent, the problem is that market intervention has stopped the free market operating and therefore competition and choosy consumers cannot solve the problem by reducing prices.

Look at the taxi's in Dublin, I often remember walking a couple of miles home because it was quicker than waiting by the Green for a taxi - how ridiculous was that??? Deregulation came and, as far as I can see (having thankfully exited Dublin apart from the odd visit) the problem has been significantly alleviated.

Rip-off isnt just high prices, its poor value. Taxi's used to give a very bad service, once the government loosened the monopoly the problem got sorted. Maybe the same would happen with pubs - stiff competition for customers would surely roll back the prices. I think chains like Witherspoons of the UK should be actively encouraged in to do a Bank of Scotland on it (they do cheap beer).


----------



## CCOVICH

elcato said:
			
		

> As an aside I have to laugh at people who represent the tourist industry who say the numbers are down this year and still charge way too much for a room. My heart also bleeds for these guys. Maybe the argument should read rip off Irish .......


 
Yes indeed.  And what is the government and tourist industry's reaction to falling numbers?  More advertising, more spin, more PR.  If we tell the people enough lies about how Ireland is fantastic value for money as a holiday destination, then eventually they will forget this myth of "Rip off Ireland" that has been conjured up by people like that Eddie Hobbs on RTE.  

But all this advertising costs money, how will we pay for it?  Well the beauty of that is that consumers in this country have become accustomed to business' raising their prices when their costs increase.  Just whine that your margins are only 2%, that it's a miracle you make any money at all, or, that there is no money in this game at all, and your only doing it cos you don't want to see the family business close after 200 years.  That will do it. After all, none of the rest of us have to suffer when insurance costs increase, or oil prices or whatever.


----------



## clare

I wonder how much a pint in the Dail bar costs?  Do TD's have to pay for drink there or is another of their perks?


----------



## Omega

*Stop being ripped off in pubs by:*

Going to them less often; CCOVICH is right - get bottled beer on special offer (typically about euro 1.00 per 33cl bottle) at supermarkets, off-licenses, etc.

Dunnes/Superquinn/Tesco often have 24 Warsteiner, etc. for e24 - execllent stuff! 

*Stop being ripped off in off-licenses by:*

Clubbing together and go to France in a van on an Irish Ferries mini-cruise in the off-season and get great wine for 3-4 euro per bottle. Get a year's supply without paying either Excise OR VAT! 

Enjoy.....


----------



## Humpback

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> So RDJ (and anyone likeminded), if (c) is your solution, fine. We're not talking about feckin' bottles of Kristal here, just a pint. The same crap the pub sells every other day, but today is different. Today pub owner will make more money than any other day in the year (bar New Years' eve maybe), but why should they not strive to make even more? That's the free market I guess, fair enough.
> God help this country if we ever go to war. I dread to think how retailers would react to rationing and shortages. (Of course they would raise their prices, but by how much?)


 
CCOVICH,
I'm quite happy to pay the extra money on the day when they're charging more for a pint because of a match at Landsdowne. And have happily done so for most of our recent internationals.

The pubs are providing a service, or which I choose to avail, and am willing to pay the price for it.

However, being a discerning consumer, because I know they're profiteering off my custom on international days, I provide them with no business whatsoever on any other days of the year. They don't deserve it.

If I find a pub who doesn't increase their prices, and still provides the service I'm looking for on international days, they're more likely to get my business on any other day.

If such pubs are able to survive on such short-term focused profiteering activities, without any care for their customers, then it's not really my fault that they're continuing in business, it's the people who frequent that place on a daily basis.

It is unfortunate that, I believe, in the the main, Irish businesses only ever consider that they're dealing with a customer on a once-off basis all the time. They don't care about customer loyalty and therefore squeeze each customer as if they'll never be back.

I


----------



## shnaek

I'd like to add to daltonr's point about not comparing Ireland of the 00's to Ireland of the 80's but to other countries of the 00's - could we also compare ourselves with the best? Instead of saying Ireland of the 00's is a far better place than Poland of the 00's, could we compare our health system with that of France for example? Or our beer with that of Germany or the Czeck republic? When we run a race we don't say we did better than the last guy. We look at how far we have to push ourselves to come first.


----------



## Humpback

I'll agree with DaltonR here as well.

For the money we spend on most things in Ireland, we do not get value, quality and service commensurate with that received in other countries.

Having lived in London, New York, and the Far East, we are not getting enough bang for our euro in this country.

And that is why I believe we are absolutely living in RipOff Ireland.


----------



## Carpenter

Maybe I'm going a little off the point here but a previous poster made reference to Witherspoons pub chain coming into Ireland...well actually they did look at setting up shop in Dublin a few years ago (2 or 3 years only) but pulled out at the last minute, mysteriously.  Probably (purely my own conspiracy theory) because the brewers/ suppliers here wouldn't sell them their products at the reduced prices they'd expect in Britain.  I happen to think it was a great shame for the consumer, even if they'd only have Stella, Fosters and Harp on tap!


----------



## CCOVICH

shnaek said:
			
		

> When we run a race we don't say we did better than the last guy. We look at how far we have to push ourselves to come first.


 
I couldn't agree more.  But that's the typical Irish mentality I'm afraid.


----------



## jasconius

I was advised by mother in law to watch this programme.
In my opinion it should have been children sitting there in the audience and not adults.
He is either a condescending so and so or else a very intelligent person unused to talking to people at large - I think he is the former - needless to say that when I saw him parading around Athy looking for drunks (who all turned out to be women) I switched off. It was embarassing to say the least.


an intelligent person can be proud to be intelligent - a wise person knows how to be humble


----------



## Humpback

jasconius said:
			
		

> I was advised by mother in law to watch this programme.
> In my opinion it should have been children sitting there in the audience and not adults.
> He is either a condescending so and so or else a very intelligent person unused to talking to people at large - I think he is the former - needless to say that when I saw him parading around Athy looking for drunks (who all turned out to be women) I switched off. It was embarassing to say the least.


 
If we have so many intelligent people in this country, as represented by way people feel spoken down to by Eddie, how come we're in the mess we're in???

Why aren't you intelligent people running the country instead of bitching about a tv programme on a bulletin board????


----------



## legend99

jasconius said:
			
		

> I was advised by mother in law to watch this programme.
> In my opinion it should have been children sitting there in the audience and not adults.
> He is either a condescending so and so or else a very intelligent person unused to talking to people at large - I think he is the former - needless to say that when I saw him parading around Athy looking for drunks (who all turned out to be women) I switched off. It was embarassing to say the least.



I'd give this point of view my 100% support.


----------



## daltonr

ronan_d_john,  the issue of treating customers as one off encounters is really a symptom a another problem.   I.e.  there is a steady stream of consumers to replace them, or their consumers don't complain and keep comign back.  

It's not unique to Ireland of course.  I was really struck by this problem in Australia.  Had two bad experience in Restaurants, one in a taxi, and one with Brisbane Airport.
In most cases these were touristy type situation where there'd be a steady stream of replacements and I was unlikely to be back anyway.


In Malaysia and Singapore the customer was treated almost like royalty.   It was actually a little disconcerting.   When a shop assistant in Singapore hands you your change, the don't just hand it to you.  They hold it on both hands and almost bow when handing it to you.

I actually think looking at how shop staff deal with customers is an excellent way of figuring out how people in general deal with each other.  If your experience of shops is assitants who talk on the mobile and treat customers as irritants then you are probably dealing with a wider problem of manners in society.

-Rd


----------



## Janet

I'm undecided about his presenting style but have to admit that to me it wasn't so much condescending as it was more tongue in cheek!  I felt he was presenting in that way to emphasise even more the ridiculousness of some of the issues he was talking about.


----------



## MissRibena

We can cringe at Eddie's delivery without necessarily (completely) disagreeing with his message. There's no need for anyone to be told that if they don't like it they should run the country or other similar guff. If anything is going to change, then there will have to be far more "pulling together" in this country. I think the consumer and the majority of businesses are actually on the same side and that very few are part of any "golden circle" that benefit from dodgy/outdated government policy. 

I think the way this country is being mismanaged on the money front is a scandal but I think using the price of a pint or excise on a bottle of champagne (discretionary/luxury items) trivialises the issue and probably won't get people wound up enough to take action. I don't think the current state of affairs is one bit funny and I don't want people to laugh it off and say "that's us mad Irish for ya". I do believe that he needs to push better/harder-hitting buttons to spur his audience into meaningful action. I think most people would be more outraged if they were reminded about how Joe Duffy could organise funds/wherewithall to get every patient off trollies in a Dublin hospital (can't remember which one) but the offer was refused by the government.

I know it's not up to Eddie to propose solutions/action but if he cares enough to take on the issues, surely he doesn't want it all to fall flat on its face as soon as his TV series is over. Hopefully he has something in store for the finale and is building to a crescendo. And of course, the possiblity remains, that the jokey formula might just work and I'll be glad if it does - I just have a sinking feeling.

The really depressing part is that I don't know how change is actually going to happen. Even if we march in the street and tear down the Dail, what alternatives are there? The current government isn't up to much but there is no saviour waiting in the wings to straighten the whole thing out either. Still though, I'm still glad Eddie got the gig or that there is a gig at all.

Rebecca


----------



## Teabag

Thats well said Rebecca.

I think some of the posters on this thread would rather Eddie never produced this show at all. I am disillusioned reading some of the posts.

The first step is the hardest. Hopefully we can unite and find a solution.


----------



## daltonr

I like the style too.  I don't see why anyone would think it was condescending.   
It reminded me of the sketch Dermot Morgan used to do where P. Flynn was a school teacher.   To the extent that it was condescending it was for a reason.  

It's a brilliant idea to mix satire with a Money Program and unlike a lot of home grown shows I think they pull it off.

-Rd


----------



## Noor77

Janet said:
			
		

> I'm undecided about his presenting style but have to admit that to me it wasn't so much condescending as it was more tongue in cheek! I felt he was presenting in that way to emphasise even more the ridiculousness of some of the issues he was talking about.


 
I totally agree with you on this one Janet. 

And as for the contributor who said he watched because his mother in law "told" him to, and then complains about the tone of the programme......a very bad case of kettles and pots I think


----------



## sherib

For someone not trained in TV or Journalism, I think Eddie Hobbs is providing a great service on behalf of consumers. It's just a pity it's not an Autumn show. He even showed his talent for mimicry last night, taking off our "Minister for Fun", which gave me a laugh. No one is disputing that the Ireland of 2005 is infinitely better than it was in the 1980s but that is not the issue. EH's is showing that _*the vested interests*_ have the full backing of our politicians in maintaining high prices. Why not - that means more tax and VAT for the ever expanding state coffers to waste on pet projects that will garner votes. 

Momma Harney took on the Taxi Drivers lobby and won (as did consumers) but "Big Mac" McDowell had to back down when the Vintners' lobby, who have the government in their pockets, objected. And Fine Gael sided with Bertie's bluster. Momma Harney should now stop telling us to "shop around". A pub licence costs €180,000 compared to a Cafe Bar license that would only have cost €5,000. No way can "Joe/Josephine Soap" get in on that lucrative act. It's obvious that maintaining the _status quo_ for the vested interests is far more important than competition in the interest of consumers.

Eddie also disparaged the repetitious claim that we are "a low tax economy". Am I the only one who thinks that statement is one of the greatest frauds? We are not - when compared with similar European countries due to our high _indirect_ _taxes _which, significantly, represent a higher proportion of the income of the lower paid. 

When PAYE was hitting 73% in the 1980s, PAYE workers also had to pay Property Tax on relatively modest homes. Now that homes costing multiples of millions are not uncommon, where is the Property Tax such owners could well afford to pay? Recent reports say that our Universities are starved for funds, yet the children of the very wealthy are scott free while there has been no real increase in the number of children from low incomes families getting to third level. The rising tide has not lifted all boats so we need more prisons to house those excluded from participation in our _"aren't we great" _society.


----------



## Carpenter

I think this debate is starting to have a little more balance now and if nothing else Eddie Hobbs and "Rip off Ireland" is prompting this debate.  The ineffectiveness of (the bulk of) our elected representatives is surely one the country's greatest downfalls.  In the case of McDowell alone, his climbdown vis a vis Cafe Bars represented a real blow for democracy and the right to choice and competition, even if it relates back to drink consumption.  As a person who rarely frequents pubs now I would have liked the opportunity to have a light lunch and a glass of wine in a moderately priced "Cafe Bar".


----------



## daltonr

> Am I the only one who thinks that statement is one of the greatest frauds?


 
No you're not.  It's a point that's been made here and elsewhere a lot.

Certainly tax on business is low.  And that has certainly helped create a lot of jobs.
We don't know how stable those jobs are time will tell, but overall it has been good.   
It's a great example of not taxing things that you want to happen,  like creating jobs.

Direct tax on employment is not high, but given the startling jump from 20% to 42% with no middle ground, it's not fair to call it low tax either.  I'd call it extreme tax rather than high or low.

Non Income related taxes, like motor tax, VRT, bin charges, VAT, Stamp Duty, levies etc.   These are a real problem becuase by allowing the government to keep income tax "low" we end up with the worst off people paying more than their fair share.
It's THE fundamental problem that I have with things at the moment.

I've always said that I'd accept a 95% tax rate if I got value for the money.   We buy the myths too easily.   They say low tax economy and we swallow it without fully thinking through if that's right.

They say "we're spending €x Billion on Health" and we accept that as progress when it's nothing of the sort.  Spending money is a bad thing,   a necessary evil to produce results.   The results are the key.   If there were results worth speaking of they wouldn't waste time talking about how much those results cost.

If things were really going well in Health you would never hear a Minister say "We're spending €x Billion in Health".  They'd say, "There are now no patients sleeping on trollies in A&E".

Spending more money and not getting results is the worst of both worlds.  It leads to high tax and low services.   Poor value for your tax contribution.

There are good stories.   Education is good, despite underfunding.   Despite holes in the portacabins and the odd close shave with rats I got a really excellent primary, secondary, and third level education.  

-Rd


----------



## legend99

How about we all go and get some good value alcoholic takeaway and reconvene here at 1am to continue this discussion...


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Lads - you are missing the point. The comparison with 20 years ago is very relevant.

The reason things are expensive in Ireland is because we have a booming economy. We have full employment. We have huge profitability. We have very low taxes on profits and income. There is massive demand, so prices rise to meet that demand. 

I made the comparison with 20 years ago, because it seems to me that most of you were happy to be unemployed or to have left the country. Prices were lower because incomes were low. You object to me making this comparison with 20 years ago, but you made no objection to Eddie comparing the price of cement in Ireland today with the price in Germany today. It's a similar argument. Would you prefer to live in a booming economy like Ireland or a bust economy like Ireland of 20 years ago or Germany of today?

Don't confuse high prices with rip-offs. Rename it High Price Ireland. I agree with you. This is very important because it helps us to focus on the real Rip-Offs. We can start with Rainyday's list:



> - How many Irish rip-off taxpayers by not paying the proper taxes on their rental income, or their nixers income?
> - How many Irish rip-off taxpayers by conspiring to get reduces prices from the landlord/tradesman via tax evasion?
> - How many Irish rip-off insurance companies (aind other customers of insurance companies) by lying on their car insurance proposals about who is actually the main driver of the car and what address the car is kept at (to get the benefit of 'country rates' over Dublin rates).
> - How many Irish rip-off owners of creative content (CD's / DVD's / software) by illegal copying (and keep some the paramilitaries in pocket money while doing so)?
> - How many Irish ripped off other taxpayers in the 80's and the 90's by keeping their cash income off-shore or in bogus non-resident accounts?
> - How many Irish rip off other taxpaayers in the naughties by keeping their hot money off-shore in property in Turkey/Croatia/Bulgaria etc?



Part of the reason, some of our taxes are high is that they are not being borne equally. Tax evasion is the biggest rip-off in Ireland. Insurance fraud is probably the next biggest. Fortunately, both are reducing a lot. 

The biggest monopoly is the monopoly of the trade unions. The Dart workers will probably go on strike later this week because they want compensation for driving longer trains. They have a monopoly on driving these trains. You and I will end up paying them compensation for the additional responsibilities involved. 

And there didn't seem to be much critical reaction to the farmers occupying a meat plant for having the cheek to import beef from South America. Or the crazy sugar regime we have in Europe to protect Irish farmers. 

Apart from sending nappies to the Minister or drinking tap water, no one has suggested anything positive. Why not set up a restaurant or import cement or open a pub? 

daltonr - what I really cannot understand is that you have been harping on about how horrible Ireland is to live in compared to every other country in the World and yet you are still here. I think Ireland is a great place to live. I would much prefer to be employed and paying high prices than unemployed and getting things cheaply.

Brendan


----------



## CCOVICH

Brendan said:
			
		

> The biggest monopoly is the monopoly of the trade unions. The Dart workers will probably go on strike later this week because they want compensation for driving longer trains. They have a monopoly on driving these trains. You and I will end up paying them compensation for the additional responsibilities involved.



Brendan I have read plenty of criticism of the DART drivers, and let anyone come on here and argue that they are entitled to 'compensation' and I will galdly tell them what I think they are entitled to-SFA.  If they go on strike, I will be rooting for the government and IE to win the day.  I get the DART every morning, it takes me around 25 minutes to get to work.  The bus would probably take an hour, the car an hour and half.  But I would gladly _crawl_ the 9 miles from where I live to get to work if there is a strike, if it meant that these gangsters didn't get a penny more than the €48,000 a year they already 'earn'.


----------



## brodiebabe

Jister said:
			
		

> I know a village which once had 2 pubs but both have now been closed. So the population are being forced to drink and drive. More deaths, more accidents, more burden on the hospitals, more expense for you and me, higher taxes, more ripoffs.


 
Why are they being forced to drink and drive?  Who has a gun to their head forcing them to drink and drive?  Do they not have the option of a) Not drinking or b) Designating a driver?


----------



## Marion

> I'm not claiming to be able to fully assess quality of life in a brief visit, but I think the level of contentment and pride that citizens have about their country is a reasonable barometer or Quality of Life


 
Last week, the Irish Times asked a number of foreign tourists if the high prices in Ireland would deter them from returning. Not one of them said yes. I thought this was interesting. We must be doing something right – perhaps we don’t appreciate what we have? 

I really like living in Ireland – that is not to say that I couldn’t or wouldn’t like to live elsewhere. It’s fantastic to see cities towns and villages which were drab and dreary and run down now doing so well and looking so attractive. Communities that were wiped out to emigration – an entire football team in a small West Clare village is one statistic which I recall – now reaping the benefits of a wealthy and more sophisticated and confident society. 



I bought a wild salmon a couple of weeks ago at €2.50 a lb at a quay – straight from the river. Local towns have markets at weekends where we can buy fantastic fresh local and organic produce if we don’t feel like growing our own. I went to a fruit farm today and the woman who runs it threw in .5kg extra for me to eat on my way home. In a restaurant, Ely, as it happens, we were asked if we would mind moving table for dessert. We said no. We were not billed for the dessert. In another restaurant in Kilcolgan during RaceWeek when by the law of averages prices should increase, they forgot to include coffees on the bill. We were told not to worry about it. These are a few of my recent experiences. 

It’s not all doom and gloom. 

Of course I would prefer if prices were lower for the goods which I consume, but as Brendan has suggested, I would gladly pay these prices than return to the miserable 80s.

Maybe we should look around us and see what we can celebrate about ouselves (we are helping to create the current environment) and our country rather than knocking it as a Rip-off Republic.

Marion


----------



## shnaek

Brendan said:
			
		

> Would you prefer to live in a booming economy like Ireland or a bust economy like Ireland of 20 years ago or Germany of today?Brendan



I don't think you can compare Germany of today to Ireland 20 years ago in fairness! Germany today has great roads and rail, spotless towns, amazing architecture, beautifully restored buildings, top class hospitals etc. It may have high unemployment, but they will get this under control. Also, unemployment benefit there is massive. They get a generous proportion of the wages they used to earn. Ireland was far from that in the 80s.

Some prices in Ireland are simply high. That's fair enough. But there is certainly rip off elements - many created by government policy influenced by vested interests. I am sure this happens in other countries too, but like I said earlier - I'd prefer compare us with the best rather than the worst.

I'd like to point out also that I still like living in Ireland. There is plenty to like about it. But there is plenty more to improve in it. That's why I give Eddies programme the thumbs up.


----------



## RainyDay

So if we're convinced that every petrol station/restaurant/pub/taxi/dentist etc is ripping off the consumer and creaming it, why aren't we all rushing out to open our own petrol station/restaurant/pub/taxi/dentist etc?


----------



## z107

> The reason things are expensive in Ireland is because we have a booming economy. We have full employment. We have huge profitability. We have very low taxes on profits and income.



However, as soon as we go to spend our taxed income, we find ourselves forking out for a whole plethora of additional compounded taxes.



> There is massive demand, so prices rise to meet that demand.



When the suppliers' costs change the supply curve will shift. Extra taxes = higher prices.


----------



## sherib

Taxes on profits are low (and I agree fully with that policy) but to say *tax is low on income is patently not true* when indirect taxes and charges are added. Our taxation system is inequitably skewed, falling disproportionately heavier on those with _relatively _low incomes. Inevitably this results in workers, e.g. the DART workers, who pay exactly the same for the services all of us enjoy, seeking wage hikes to lessen the disparity. Doesn't everyone knew we are an amazingly creative people. BTW, I am not an apologist for DART workers or any other essential service providers.


> There is massive demand, so prices rise to meet that demand.


That's terrific - cost isn't an issue for those who can afford high prices, but what about those, the majority, trying to set up house and live a reasonable life style? If we need a plumber, an electrician, a creche or any other essential service, there is _no choice_ but to pay the price demanded. _*Food, heat and housing are not discretionary spends.*_

I'm not aware of anyone suggesting that all petrol stations, restaurants, taxis etc are ripping us off. It has been well publicised that the margins in those businesses are very tight due to high rents and wage costs compared to neighbouring countries. In my opinion, it is our greedy government's *high indirect taxation policy* that is the root cause of us being and feeling ripped off. Isn't that what Eddie Hobbs program has shown us? It is the remit of government to ensure we live in an equitable society and not to bow down to the demands and whims of vested interests. 

Like many others who post here, I enjoy living in Ireland but that doesn't mean I and others can't object to or criticise what we perceive as wrongs in our society. We can all mention good experiences but we wouldn't feel the need to do so if it were the norm. The reality is, it isn't for too many. 

PS I paid €22/kilo for wild salmon recently in a good fish shop in Dublin and didn't feel ripped off. The price was €35 in the local shop so I voted with my feet. And the food in the Ely Wine Bar is probably the best I have eaten in years as well as being the cheapest. Definitely a very welcome exception.


----------



## annamac1

Here's a thought about our great tourist authority - we are having so many complaints about the general standards of eating out now in Ireland - why don't we take a lead from the Spanish?  In their push for tourism they formulated the concept of the 'fixed price menu' - oh yes, you say we have that here too ...- but I don't think that we do.  What we need is the Catering Colleges to take the lead and compile a very basic set of menus for the ordinary cafes and restaurants so that we create some standards for everyone to  follow. Not everyone is a potential Michelan star restauranteur.


----------



## ClubMan

There is some great value and quality to be had in terms of fixed price lunch specials around Dublin. For example, I work up the road from _Romano's _on _Capel Street _where you can get a starter, main course (home made pasta made from organic flour and eggs or pizza made with organic flour) and tea/coffee for €9.95. There's a _Vietnamese _restaurant behind the _Central Bank _called _Hosen _which does a similar lunch (starter, main and tea/coffee) for €10.80. I have seen similarly priced lunch specials elsewhere around town but I can't vouch for the quality of many others right now.


----------



## daltonr

> I made the comparison with 20 years ago, because it seems to me that most of you were happy to be unemployed or to have left the country.



Nobody other than yourself and Jem have even mentioned the 1980's.   Let's lay this to rest once and for all.   I don't think Ireland was a better place in the 1980's.   The quality of life is better now for most people.  Perhaps for all people,  I don't know of any group for whom life has gotten worse, but they may be out there.



> Prices were lower because incomes were low. You object to me making this comparison with 20 years ago, but you made no objection to Eddie comparing the price of cement in Ireland today with the price in Germany today.



Because Germany Today and Ireland today are both TODAY.  Why not compare Ireland to Ireland of 100 years ago and really knock us out with how great a country it is?



> It's a similar argument. Would you prefer to live in a booming economy like Ireland or a bust economy like Ireland of 20 years ago or Germany of today?



Given a choice between Ireland of the 80's and Germany of Today I know where I'd like to Live.  Am I allowed make that comparison?



> Don't confuse high prices with rip-offs.



Don't confuse low prices with value.   This discussion for me is not about prices it's about poor value.  I don't believe excessive profits are rampant.  I do believe that Tax is High, and indirect taxes are accounting for a significant chunk of the cost of living.   And that the services we get in return are poor at best.

I'm sure you would be the first to agree that Irish people don't complain enough when they get shoddy service in a restaurant.  It's been a problem for years and we're only learning how to speak up.

But why can't we do the same with the country?   Tax is my single biggest expense each year.  It is for most people.  That's before you even consider the additional taxes I pay by living day to day.   Why can't I say that Ireland as a country offers poor value for money to tax payers?   That is Rip-Off Ireland.



> Tax evasion is the biggest rip-off in Ireland.



Wrong Wrong Wrong.   A man who evades tax to the tune of €5000 has exactly 10,000 times less impact on the economy than a minister who squanders €50 million.
Both force tax payers to put their hands into their pockets to make up for the loss.
The biggest Rip-Off in Ireland in a government with a skewed sence of priorities.



> The biggest monopoly is the monopoly of the trade unions.



Wrong Wrong Wrong.   The biggest monopoly is the unavoidable one that we only have one government.  They get to decide how much of our money to take in tax and they get to decide how to squander it.



> Apart from sending nappies to the Minister or drinking tap water, no one has suggested anything positive. Why not set up a restaurant or import cement or open a pub?



Some of is have started businesses, I can only run one at a time.   And you're missing the point that excessive profits are not the problem.



> daltonr - what I really cannot understand is that you have been harping on about how horrible Ireland is to live in compared to every other country in the World and yet you are still here.



1. Because I'm not going to jump to the first country I like.
2. Because it takes time to disentangle yourself from a country.
3. Because if your attitude is that anyone who thinks Ireland could be improved
   should get out and find somewhere better, then Ireland will never improve.



> I think Ireland is a great place to live. I would much prefer to be employed and paying high prices than unemployed and getting things cheaply.



I'd prefer to be employed and getting good value for money.   But I guess that's just me.

-Rd


----------



## CCOVICH

ClubMan said:
			
		

> There is some great value and quality to be had in terms of fixed price lunch specials around Dublin. For example, I work up the road from _Romano's _on _Capel Street _where you can get a starter, main course (home made pasta made from organic flour and eggs or pizza made with organic flour) and tea/coffee for €9.95. There's a _Vietnamese _restaurant behind the _Central Bank _called _Hosen _which does a similar lunch (starter, main and tea/coffee) for €10.80. I have seen similarly priced lunch specials elsewhere around town but I can't vouch for the quality of many others right now.



Rayhoon on Talbot St. (not much of a tourist destinantion though) does any starter, any pizza/pasta, and a coke/tea/coffee for €10.50 and I love the food  (not sure about organic content C'Man!).


----------



## CCOVICH

Good send-up of Eddie (along with Roy the Boy) on Gift Grub this morning.


----------



## daltonr

There's a place in Temple Bar,  I think it's called the Quay Bar,  there's a resturant called the Quay Kitchen (I think).   I enjoyed that.   Not Cheap, but not expensive by Dublin standards.

Also Milano's (I think) in Terenure was OK.  
Sayers in Terenure, a little expensive but I really like the food.

Sanam (Indian) in Bray was a regular (once a month at least, sometimes more).  But it just got too expensive.   Occasionally go there for very special occasions.  Once a year maybe less.   Usually empty, but they must be surviving somehow.

It gets me sometimes that I'm surprised that the meal ONLY costs €50 (Without Wine, starters, tea, coffee, dessert etc.).   I think if you eat out a lot in Dublin your sense of what constitutes value for money get's shifted.   That's why trips abroad are such a jarring experience.

Incidently if you want good value in a Dublin resturant pick one that provides take out.  You can get seriously good value,  and is it really worth €20 to have someone clear the table and do the washing up?

-Rd


----------



## Ceist Beag

Fair play daltonr, agree with ye 100%. As for RainyDay - what kind of argument is it to say that if we think we're being ripped off by taxis/shops/dentists that we should open run our own taxi/shop/dentist business? Thats just a daft statement. Are we not allowed to complain about prices any more? So if I complain that going to the dentist costs too much in this country you suggest I should train to become a dentist myself? Sheesh!


----------



## Marion

> you are just plain wrong. the cost of living has increased without an equivalent increase in quality of life.


 [post=104498]yesterday[/post]




> The quality of life is better now for most people. Perhaps for all people, I don't know of any group for whom life has gotten worse


 [post=104833]today[/post]

      DaltonR

      Have you changed your opinion on this or am I misrepresenting what you said?



   Marion


----------



## Betsy Og

What about BYO restaurants???

These are "bring your own" wine. Are v popular in Australia, and for the consumer you avoid the rip-off of the wine prices. Many dont even charge corkage, and the few that do might charge $4, so its still more or less half price wine. Very impressed with these. Now, if it really is a 3% margin on food in Ireland then I suppose there wont be too many going for it - or is there a Ryanair model for a restaurant??, high volume byo, pie,mash & "liquer" joints maybe??? (Cockney dish, the "liquer", however its spelt, is some type of green parsley sauce type stuff)


----------



## jem

RD
The reason that I brought up about the 80's was your coment about


> the cost of living has increased without an equivalent increase in quality of life


 The operative word is Increase against when, I therefore did a comparison.This was your definition of Rip off Ireland, it was only after my post that you changed it to


> Higher Cost of Living with lower quality of life than other comparible countries.




You later say 





> Bin the FF Green tinted glasses and answer the actual points raised, stop making up arguments about the 80's that you feel you can win. Oldest politicians trick in the book is answering a question you weren't asked. Are you planning a run for office?


See above also you have decided to ignore the following where I posted re the UK:



> We went over to the UK for a holiday a few weeks ago, reading the Liverpool eco 1 story about people being on hospital trolly for 6 weeks, yes 6 weeks.
> Another story about GP only ment to have 1200 paitents on his books , he had over 2500 because he had no other choice not enough GP's. In order to get an appointment( yes you cant walk in off the street) you needed to book 5-6 weeks in advance. Iam sorry but I don't know whether or not I will have a dodgy stomack in 6 weeks or not but I had better make an apppointment just in case. There is no way we would put up with that here.



Also re USA


> Was talking to a friend of mine recently about an old class mate who now lives in NY. he has a serious operation and when his health insurance ran out before he was better he was kicked out of the hospital anyway, he had to go back to his appartment and have friends come over when they could to keep an eye on him, get him his meals, help him to the shower etc, Would anyone be kicked out of a hospital after a serious operation because their vHI wouldn't cover any more expense. I don't think so.This wasn't a "private Hospital" like here it was a normal hospital like tallagh etc.
> But sure every where else is better than here.



Legend You stated 





> you have to pay nearly 30 euro a month to Sky for the privelge.


 How many channells do you get for this?? What is the price per channel?? Corus not in your area, get a better arial if you cant get signal and dont want to pay.



> Do TD's have to pay for drink there


 YES

Posted by shnaek


> I'd like to add to daltonr's point about not comparing Ireland of the 00's to Ireland of the 80's but to other countries of the 00's - could we also compare ourselves with the best? Instead of saying Ireland of the 00's is a far better place than Poland of the 00's, could we compare our health system with that of France for example? Or our beer with that of Germany or the Czeck republic? When we run a race we don't say we did better than the last guy. We look at how far we have to push ourselves to come first.


Or germany's unemployment levels, or France's strikes belive me neither country is perfect, far from it watching news the other day and the abuse the govt of both contries geting from the people was serious, economy's going down the tubes.

Lads, everything is not perfect in Ireland, not even close, but that is the way of the world, I would bet that if you asked people in any country in the world would say the same thing.we all strive for the best and this is a good thing.However we have come a long long way over a relativly short period of time from the basket case economy that we had to one of the most sucessful economies in the world. 
We can give out about the roads, but then we can compaire what the were like, We can think of the fact that a few short years ago we would say that yiou would know when you cross the boarder with NI by the state of the roads, however cross the same boarder at the same point and you could say the same but for exactly the opposite reason they are far better here. You could talk to people from NI  has I have in the past few weeks and they tell you that they wished they could move "down South" for the standard of living, services etc.
Its time to stop the whinging.


----------



## daltonr

> DaltonR
> Have you changed your opinion on this or am I misrepresenting what you said?



I'm happy to clear this up for you Marion.

The cost of living has increased without *an equivalent* increase in quality of life. 

Of course Ireland is a better place now than in the 80's  It would be hard to have avoided improving.   I believe we went forward dramatically in the 90's.  Which accounts for why the country is a better place today than in the 80's   I think we have actually gone backwards slightly over the past 4 years or so.  

But the Cost of Living has since the mid 90's gotten to get further and further out of sync with the Quality of Life.   I have no way of proving this but I think quality of life on average has dropped over the past 5 years.   That's just an observation and based on talking to people.   

My problem is with the current government and it's over emphasis on economy and underemphasis on society.   During the 90's quality of life increased, but the fruits of the FF approach are now apparent.    To bastardise a cliche,  the spent the Boom on Fish instead of teaching us to fish.

If I thought for one second that the current government were going in the right direction then I'd accept that Ireland came from a very low base and we need to be patient in waiting for it to catch up with it's neighbours.

But since I believe the current government is going in the WRONG direction and lying as it goes I think I'm justified in calling attention to this.

Jem.   At no point have I stated that any other country is perfect.  I just said that many other countries were Better overall when Cost of Living is compared to quality of life.   We all know why this is it's not news.  You are right Ireland was a basket case thanks in big part to FF buying the 1977 election.  

It would have taken geniuses to create infrastructure like Germany's and a Health Service like Frances in the space of 10 to 15 years even with the Boom.   I don't expect that.

But I do expect us to keep moving in the right direction.   And we're not.

Life might be grand if you're well paid, you have your house, your pension, your health insurance.  If you don't have kids or they are old enough to look after themself or you have family nearby to do cheap childcare.   Your Net worth shot up alongside the housing boom.

I'm sure that if that's you then Ireland must seem like a great place.    But that isn't life for a big big chunk of the population.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> I believe we went forward dramatically in the 90's. Which accounts for why the country is a better place today than in the 80's I think we have actually gone backwards slightly over the past 4 years or so.
> 
> But the Cost of Living has since the mid 90's gotten to get further and further out of sync with the Quality of Life. I have no way of proving this but I think quality of life on average has dropped over the past 5 years. That's just an observation and based on talking to people.


So you agree that there are no objective and measurable criteria that can be used to assess this forward and backward movement and that this analysis is all based a hunch or gut feeling on your part?



> But since I believe the current government is going in the WRONG direction and lying as it goes I think I'm justified in calling attention to this.


What party or political movement do you think offers the best promise for correction of the wrongs that you perceive (a perfect solution is not necessary - just progress on the issues that you feel need to be addressed)? If none, what do you think that you and others can and should do to address these issues? I'm sure that you can suggest some practical and effective solutions.


----------



## jem

daltonr said:
			
		

> I'm happy to clear this up for you Marion.
> 
> The cost of living has increased without *an equivalent* increase in quality of life.


Thats not what you said you said 





> The quality of life is better now for most people. Perhaps for all people, I don't know of any group for whom life has gotten worse






			
				daltonr said:
			
		

> But the Cost of Living has since the mid 90's gotten to get further and further out of sync with the Quality of Life.   I have no way of proving this but I think quality of life on average has dropped over the past 5 years.   That's just an observation and based on talking to people.
> 
> My problem is with the current government and it's over emphasis on economy and underemphasis on society.   During the 90's quality of life increased, but the fruits of the FF approach are now apparent.    To bastardise a cliche,  the spent the Boom on Fish instead of teaching us to fish
> 
> 
> If I thought for one second that the current government were going in the right direction then I'd accept that Ireland came from a very low base and we need to be patient in waiting for it to catch up with it's neighbours..


First of all if the economy isn't right nothing else can be done. 
Quality  of life as you now admit is un quantifiable, by its very nature vary's from person to person. And depends on what markers you use. I agree that siting in traffic jams is not quality of life. But the flip side of this is there are more cars on the road because of QUALITY OF LIFE, likewise the luas and dart has been put on place( dart drivers strike???) there are more private bus operators going up and down to Dublin and around Dublin to a limited degree , teh Unions are fighting tooth and nail against more Comp. in this area, there are more taxise and hackneys available all over the country. The road network has improved dramatically over the past few years and is in the process of geting better. There are many many examples of the improvements.Its not perfect we are not there the whole way but we are geting there.





			
				daltonr said:
			
		

> But since I believe the current government is going in the WRONG direction and lying as it goes I think I'm justified in calling attention to this.


Yes but surly it gets a bit tireing reading it the whole time. I would also assume that you will be standing for election the next time there is one with a full range of policies that can be disected.




			
				daltonr said:
			
		

> Jem.   At no point have I stated that any other country is perfect.  I just said that many other countries were Better overall when Cost of Living is compared to quality of life.  .


You have ignored again my earlier examples.


 We all know why this is it's not news.  





			
				daltonr said:
			
		

> You are right Ireland was a basket case thanks in big part to FF buying the 1977 election.  .


If you want a seperate tread on the  reason for our basket case economy of the 80's set up a seperate tread and I will argue this. I would point out however it was the FG/LAB govt that went in on a financial rectitude pladform and tribled the bnat debt in 4 years. I will also argue, that may economists argue that the idea behind the of the 1977 govt would have worked in taking the country out of recession had the Oil crises not happened . I am not saying that I would agree with everything that was done just point out that there was more to out basket case economy than the 77-81 govt.





			
				daltonr said:
			
		

> It would have taken geniuses to create infrastructure like Germany's and a Health Service like Frances in the space of 10 to 15 years even with the Boom.   I don't expect that.
> 
> But I do expect us to keep moving in the right direction.   And we're not..


I would argue that we are. The infrastructure is improving dramatically. I again point out about the health service in UK. You might quote the french health service would you pay the taxes they do, i doubt it, i wouldn't. would you put up with all the strikes etc I doubt it.




			
				daltonr said:
			
		

> Life might be grand if you're well paid, you have your house, your pension, your health insurance.  If you don't have kids or they are old enough to look after themself or you have family nearby to do cheap childcare.   Your Net worth shot up alongside the housing boom.
> 
> I'm sure that if that's you then Ireland must seem like a great place.    But that isn't life for a big big chunk of the population.
> 
> -Rd


Actually the home ownership in Ireland is far higher than the vast majority if EU countries. I do have kids aged 7&9 I remember very well how tight we were when we got married 12 years ago, we had carpets but couldnt afford to get in someone to put them down for quite a while. Look at the average size of house being built now as opposed to even then if everything was so bad the average private new house built wouldn't have almost doubled in 12 years.The vast majority of the population have never had it so good. I would say to people enjoy it it mightn't always be as good as now. We have a great little country. We have come a massive distance particularly for a country that only exists for a mear 83 years. It might sound a long time, it isn't if you compare it to UK,Germany,France, etc also remember Germany& France was largly rebuilt with the Marchell plan etcwe never got such  relative investment


----------



## Noor77

Personally I believe that many people are worse off now than they have ever been. The "Celtic Tiger" has helped rich people get richer, but it has also seen the less well off people in this country get proportionately poorer. Socially, people are now poorer in terms of free time - we work longer hours and spend less time with our families. Yes, we get paid more, but now everything costs more and we have less time to enjoy the fruits of our labour.


----------



## ClubMan

Once again - do you have anything other than anecdotal or hunch based evidence to back up these assertions? Some objective, measurable and verifiable figures would fit the bill nicely for example.


----------



## Noor77

Noor77 said:
			
		

> Personally I believe ...


 
Clubman, my comment wasn't meant as statement of fact or a sweeping generalisation - you will note I began by asserting that it is only a personal view.


----------



## ClubMan

The problem seems to me to be that many of the people asserting that things are a rip-off or that things are worse than they were or should be are doing so on the basis of largely anecdotal evidence or hunches. And I believe that in order to discuss anything in a meaningful and constructive way it is extremely important to look at the evidence and only then draw conclusions. Just saying that something is so doesn't necessarily make it so.


----------



## daltonr

> So you agree that there are no objective and measurable criteria that can be used to assess this forward and backward movement


 
There are some quantifiable measures.  I don't have all the figures at my finger tips and I won't pretent to.   I'm happy to go with the belief that Living in the country is more likely to give an accurate assesment of quality of life than any mathematical model.

But I do KNOW the following.

The average commute to work has gotten longer and continues to.    I do know that people are now living in Carlow, Meath, Longford, and commuting because they can't afford to live in Dublin.  (Although I think there's a bit of false economy there).

I know that I'm paying €40 a year for the right to own a Credit Card and I know that €40 means much more to someone who is poor than someone who is rich.

I know that the VAST majority of new builds in Dublin are Appartments not houses and are not exactly family friendly.

I know that the cost of housing is being artifically inflated by giving the one group in society who don't need more houses tax incentives to buy them.

I know that you're better off on social welfare than in low paid employment.

I could go one, but apparently you're all tired of hearing what's bad.


Jem.



> Yes but surly it gets a bit tireing reading it the whole time.


 
We have to listen to Bertie et al constantly telling us about our low tax economy.   We even have to pay for the PR machine that they use to tell us.   I didn't realise there was a quota on dissent.



> I would also assume that you will be standing for election the next time there is one with a full range of policies that can be disected.


 
No I certainly won't.   To effect real change I'd need to rejoin a political party, if elected I'd be required to lie, evade questions, etc. etc.   I wouldn't be able to be a politician.

I'll campaign against the current government.  I'll hope for the best with the next lot but expect the worst.   My chosed form of ACTION is to keep beating this drum and hope I convert a few others.   Things are moving in the right direction.   I'm certainly finding a lot more support for the points I make than when I started making them 2-3 years ago.

For what it's worth I'll also campaign for some politicians that I like including one in FF.

I'm sorry if my opinions don't fit with yours.   If I was saying that everything was great you'd never get tired of hearing it.  As long as AAM discusses consumer issues, and Rip-Off Ireland then this opinion will be raised.   Anyone including you who feels they've heard enough about Rip-Offs is free to ignore such threads.



> You have ignored again my earlier examples.


 
No I haven't.  Of course there are problems in the UK, just as there are somethings good in Ireland.   You seem to think that by finding some problem in some other country my whole argument about Ireland should fall appart.

It's like Rainyday throwing out the risk of his child getting shot in school as a reason to prefer Ireland over USA.   If a financial institution used such a dodgy abuse of statistics we'd be down on them like a ton of bricks.

-Rd


----------



## Noor77

From the Irish CWC (Community Workers Co-operative) submission to the EU, in relation to the EU Draft Constitution, April 13th 2005.

The main focus of the CWC in relation to the Draft EU Constitution concerns poverty, exclusion and social justice.  It is worth noting that Eurobarometer polls consistently put social exclusion, unemployment and poverty at the top of the list.  The EU currently has 68 million people living in poverty.



Unfortunately, Ireland consistently features as the most unequal society in the EU.  We currently share with Slovakia the dubious distinction of having the greatest percentage of people at risk of poverty in the EU (21%).


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> There are some quantifiable measures.  I don't have all the figures at my finger tips and I won't pretent to.
> 
> But I do KNOW the following.
> 
> ...


Whenever you do locate the sources for the assertions that you posted above then it would be great if you could post them here so that we can start basing the discussion on some hard facts.



> I'm happy to go with the belief that Living in the country is more likely to give an accurate assesment of quality of life than any mathematical model.


The problem is that, as Cognitive Behaviour Therapy suggests, our perception of what is going on is not necessary always accurate so it's always useful to sanity check our beliefs against objective and measurable data in order to avoid coming to fallacious conclusions and acting inappropriately on them.



> I could go one, but apparently you're all tired of hearing what's bad.


If it's bad it's bad and all we can do is look for solutions to the problems. All I'm asking for is hard evidence that it's bad.


----------



## Betsy Og

One could do worse than listen to "Celtic Tiger" by that great bard of our times one Mr. Damian Dempsey Esquire. When not drinking cheap english cider, and smoking hashish from North Affffriccaaaahhhhhha he pens lines like:

But the Celtic Tiger does to things, it makes you rich or it eats you up for supper.
This isnt any age for a low income wage, ask anyone who's locked in a cage.
The cost of rundown house is absurd.
A couple with kids cant afford a place to live, even if they have a good job.

Where we gonna live, what we gonna do, we'll have to move in with the woman in the shoe.  

strong words, softly spoken, or maybe simple words, soulfully warbled !!


----------



## Noor77

ClubMan said:
			
		

> All I'm asking for is hard evidence that it's bad.


 
I have given you some re: Ireland's poverty status within the EU. If you would like further confirmation of this you can check out the Eurobarometer findings on the EU's official site. Or alternatively you can ask the person you see sleeping rough on your way home or the person that does the cleaning in your office / work building etc.....


----------



## ClubMan

Noor77 said:
			
		

> I have given you some re: Ireland's poverty status within the EU.


Can you point me to that link/post again as I can't seem to locate it.



> Or alternatively you can ask the person you see sleeping rough on your way home


I have never seen anybody sleeping rough on route home.



> or the person that does the cleaning in your office / work building etc.....


I have chatted to the cleaners in here and in my previous job many few times and they never mentioned anything about rip-offs or things that are terrible about this country/economy.


----------



## jem

Rd.
I already mentioned the traffic jams and the improvements therein. I would point out that if peoples This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language pocketc weren't so good there wouldnt be as many cars on the road therefore less trafic.



> I know that I'm paying €40 a year for the right to own a Credit Card and I know that €40 means much more to someone who is poor than someone who is rich.


 And guess what most of the "poor" don't have one and never had one. You don't have to have one, its handy, you might like one but you make a choice whether or not you get one. If you want one you pay €40 live with it.



> I know that the VAST majority of new builds in Dublin are Appartments not houses and are not exactly family friendly


Guess what the vast majority of cities are exactlty the same if not more so.




> I know that the cost of housing is being artifically inflated by giving the one group in society who don't need more houses tax incentives to buy them.


That is the same old red herring re business expenses relief.You stated earlier that you have your own business. How would feel if you were not allowed to claim expenses that you had to have to run your business against your tax. It is exactly the same with the interest relief. Are you saying that if joe bloggs builds a factory and has to borrow some of the money to do so  he shouldn't be allowed set the interest relief against his profits?????



> I know that you're better off on social welfare than in low paid employment.


in a minority of cases this could be true. what do you want to do- cut social welfare payments or increase the min wage, which will - increase prices chicken and egg. The fact is that there is loads of work out there. Unemployment rates have come down and down. It is impossible for everyone to have everything but this country has improved dramatically. we are heading in the right direction we have never had it so good.



> No I haven't. Of course there are problems in the UK, just as there are somethings good in Ireland. You seem to think that by finding some problem in some other country my whole argument about Ireland should fall appart.
> 
> It's like Rainyday throwing out the risk of his child getting shot in school as a reason to prefer Ireland over USA. If a financial institution used such a dodgy abuse of statistics we'd be down on them like a ton of bricks.


You brought up "other countries" You brought up the health service. i just showed the fact that everything is not always greener... That while we might complain about our health service it is not as bad as the impression is. They were just 2 simple examples and you chose to ignore them.

Noor 
how much of this 21% is self inflected. with holidays abroad, cars, top of the range this and that on credit??


----------



## Noor77

Noor77 said:
			
		

> From the Irish CWC (Community Workers Co-operative) submission to the EU, in relation to the EU Draft Constitution, April 13th 2005.
> 
> The main focus of the CWC in relation to the Draft EU Constitution concerns poverty, exclusion and social justice. It is worth noting that Eurobarometer polls consistently put social exclusion, unemployment and poverty at the top of the list. The EU currently has 68 million people living in poverty.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, Ireland consistently features as the most unequal society in the EU. We currently share with Slovakia the dubious distinction of having the greatest percentage of people at risk of poverty in the EU (21%).


 

EU website: [broken link removed]
cwc website: [broken link removed]

Clubman, you seem to thrive on thrashing out the semantics of people's posts - surely that is not the point on a matter such as this? If you do not see homeless people on your route home, I must congratulate you on the area you live in. I volunteer at a homeless shelter and the people I meet there come from all walks of life. It is very easy to choose only to see what we believe in - if you wish to believe that the Ireland of today is an equitable and just place, you have every right to do so. It is, perhaps, an issue which you feel is of little importance to your life. I think the ostrich also prefers to bury its head in the sand.


----------



## jem

the following letter was in todays indo .
Schools in the US are not perfect 


Sir - As a resident of Michigan, I laughed when I read Barbara Johnston's letter about schools in the US. She paints a wonderful picture and I have no doubt that in the particular district she visited in the US her impressions of the schools were accurate. However, the reality is far from the utopia she describes. 

The school funding in each state here is dependent on the tax base in each particular district and the whims of a local school board whose members make decisions down to the textbooks the children use. 

Many schools in wealthy districts certainly conform to her description. However, this is not the case in 'middle' or 'working-class' neighbourhoods, not to mention the 'ghettos'. In the latter districts, funding is an ongoing problem. When the existing schools need refurbishment or, heaven forbid, a new school is deemed necessary because of increasing populations, then a tax levy has to be voted in by the people of that district. So, either the property taxes are increased immediately to cover the cost or, if the levy fails, the schools don't get the funding needed. 

Of course, when the property taxes increase every few years, many retired people on a fixed income, who have raised their families and lived 25 or 30 years in these same districts, cannot then afford these taxes and are required to sell their houses and move elsewhere - often to a state with lower taxes and, hence, non-desirable school districts. Thus, the value of your house can be directly related to the school district you live in. I think some of the realities of the American system, if known, would not be a popular solution to problems in Irish schools. 

By the way, the school buses here don't have seat belts either. 
Marie Hoffman, 
Westbrooke Drive, 
Lapeer, 
USA 



Makes interesting reading.


----------



## ClubMan

Noor77 said:
			
		

> Clubman, you seem to thrive on thrashing out the semantics of people's posts - surely that is not the point on a matter such as this?


I'm just challenging the cosy cartel of rip-off begrudgers.



> If you do not see homeless people on your route home, I must congratulate you on the area you live in.


I have lived in _Dublin 7 _(currently, and for the past ten years, in relatively close proximity to _Dublin 1_) for my whole life - a great place but arguably not the plushest part of _Dublin _overall. There are several hostels for the homeless in the vicinity. Maybe I don't see people sleeping on the streets in my area or on my route home from work because they are being catered for by these institutions?


> I volunteer at a homeless shelter and the people I meet there come from all walks of life.


Do you honestly think that most people are in this situation due to "rip-off Ireland"?


> It is very easy to choose only to see what we believe in


If you think that I'm lying about not seeing people sleeping in the streets then so be it - not my problem.


> - if you wish to believe that the Ireland of today is an equitable and just place, you have every right to do so.


I never said that everything was equitable and just. This thread was about alleged rip-offs and the consumer getting screwed. It wasn't about the wider issues of social equity and the like. But since you mention it, do *you* believe that society should be totally equitable such that everybody has exactly the same in terms of wages, wealth etc.? I don't and believe in a meritocracy with the safety net of social/community welfare system to cater for those who can't sufficiently cater/fend for themselves.


> It is, perhaps, an issue which you feel is of little importance to your life. I think the ostrich also prefers to bury its head in the sand.


How am I doing this?


----------



## Noor77

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I'm just challenging the cosy cartel of rip-off begrudgers.
> 
> do *you* believe that society should be totally equitable such that everybody has exactly the same in terms of wages, wealth etc.? I don't and believe in a meritocracy with the safety net of social/community welfare system to cater for those who can't sufficiently cater/fend for themselves.
> 
> How am I doing this?


 
I'm not a communist is that's what you are wondering!  

I believe everyone has a basic right to education, health and housing and I think that we should do everything we can to ensure that that, as a country, we provide the best public services that we possibly can in this regard. I am more than willing to pay increased tax in order that this might be achieved. I have always had private health care and private schooling, but that does not mean that I don't care about the state of public health care and education. Just because I am alright does not make me less aware of all the people that are not. I think we are being ripped off by being expected to put up with shambolic public services.


----------



## ClubMan

Noor77 said:
			
		

> I'm not a communist is that's what you are wondering!


I didn't actually - but now I'm worried about what you might think that I am. 


> I think we are being ripped off by being expected to put up with shambolic public services.


Fair enough - all I am asking for from people who assert this is some hard evidence. I am currently looking at the links that you posted earlier - thanks.


----------



## ClubMan

Noor77 said:
			
		

> _From the Irish CWC (Community Workers Co-operative) submission to the EU, in relation to the EU Draft Constitution, April 13th 2005.
> 
> The main focus of the CWC in relation to the Draft EU Constitution concerns poverty, exclusion and social justice. It is worth noting that Eurobarometer polls consistently put social exclusion, unemployment and poverty at the top of the list. The EU currently has 68 million people living in poverty.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, Ireland consistently features as the most unequal society in the EU. We currently share with Slovakia the dubious distinction of having the greatest percentage of people at risk of poverty in the EU (21%).
> _


Do you have a link to the original article in question? I can't seem to find it on the _CWC _site. I presume that they're referring to relative and rather than absolute poverty as explained by the . If so is there any objective definition of what constitutes relative poverty that can be applied across the board (e.g. across different countries in the _EU_)?


			
				Noor77 said:
			
		

> EU website: [broken link removed]
> cwc website: [broken link removed]


Also - what specifically should I be looking at on the _europa.eu.int _website that backs up the assertions of rip-offs and injustice made in this thread?


----------



## Humpback

jem said:
			
		

> Schools in the US are not perfect


 
This and many other posts in this thread are comparing us to other countries. You're seeing that things aren't so good in other countries, and then using that as a justification for why things aren't so good here.

Is there any point in this discussion whatsoever?

Looking at our country. Do we really think that we're not being ripped off, for example, in the fact that our roads project was forecasted to cost €9bn, but this programme, still not completed, will cost us in excess of €18bn.

It doesn't matter how much roads cost elsewhere, or how good they are anywhere else. 

Purely taking Ireland only, is this really value for money? Are we getting roads twice as good as originally planned? Or are we getting ripped off/overcharged (whatever!!) by those building and funding those roads?


----------



## Betsy Og

Dublin has a very visible homeless community, all along the quays, the vicinity of Tara St station etc., I dont think thats a subject worth debating it is so obvious.

Its hard to imagine how something cant be done to sort this out - Swedes would tell you its unheard of to see people sleeping rough, can we get a dollop of that please???


----------



## mmclo

I wonder if Alcohol can be viewed in the same commercial terms as other products, after all it has addictive qualities for some and there are major public health issues. This is not to say I support the publicans. 


The state does have to regualte products like alcohol although the way they do it can be criticised. The WHO and the governments own Strategic Task Force make compelling and well researched arguments as to why restrictions are needed on the availability of alcohol. Although these may not have been to the fore in the cafe bars debate. 

I don't agree with him that it was a subversion of democracy given that 40 backbenchers and others signify a lot of electoral support until we change the people we vote for! Apart from that he's doing a good job


----------



## sherib

Is an ERSI report evidence?
[broken link removed]



> Why is Relative Income Poverty so High in Ireland?
> *Abstract*
> Although relative income poverty rates vary from year to year, the rankings of different industrialised countries according to these poverty measures tend to be rather stable. Ireland is consistently among a group of countries with relative income poverty rates considerably above the European Union average (though not as high as the USA). This has not changed over the course of Irelands recent economic boom, since our relative income poverty rates themselves have not fallen indeed they have generally risen over that period. This study asks why Ireland has higher relative income poverty rates than many of our EU partners? More specifically, it explores what we can learn from an in-depth comparison with a number of other European countries, including some of the best performers in the European Union in terms of that indicator.


As evidence of my lack of bias (??) Ireland *came top* in the Economist's Quality of Life Index but how reliable is that? Don't think they measured:
(1) Hours spent in traffic Jams and commuting distances
(2) The price of a pint
(3) Creche costs
(4) Holidays in Ireland being too expensive forcing us to fly 
(5) Eddie Hobbs irritating presenting style
(6) Sick people on hospital trolleys
(7) Cappucinos costing €3/small cup
(8) 100% mortgages to put a roof over our heads
(9) Increasing levels of alcoholism and obesity
(10) Insufficent time to spend with children or family and much more......

http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf


> Ireland is the world's most pleasant place to live, according to _The Economist_'s Quality of Life Index (2005), though if you deduct them a point for their plaintive whinging ballads they drop to 19th, just ahead of Portugal. The whole index is deeply flawed, in my opinion. It seems to be weighted in favour of lame-o Scando-Canadian-style countries, where no one with any self-respect would live. Yes, yes, they are having the mass literacy and the vonderful social spending; but they are even colder and more depressing than Britain, and any realistic assessment of life there ought to take this into account.


----------



## Noor77

sherib said:
			
		

> As evidence of my lack of bias (??) Ireland *came top* in the Economist's Quality of Life Index but how reliable is that? Don't think they measured:
> (1) Hours spent in traffic Jams and commuting distances
> (2) The price of a pint
> (3) Creche costs
> (4) Holidays in Ireland being too expensive forcing us to fly
> (5) Eddie Hobbs irritating presenting style
> (6) Sick people on hospital trolleys
> (7) Cappucinos costing €3/small cup
> (8) 100% mortgages to put a roof over our heads
> (9) Increasing levels of alcoholism and obesity
> (10) Insufficent time to spend with children or family and much more......


 
Sherib - can I add a number 11 to that as follows;

(11) Slow death by semantics à la Clubman


----------



## Noor77

Community Workers Co-operative
[size=-1]File Format: Microsoft Word 2000 - View as HTML
On the *Draft* *EU* Constitution. Based on oral presentation of *13th* *April* 2005. *...*
The main focus of the *CWC* in relation to the *Draft* *EU* Constitution concerns *...*
www.forumon*eu*rope.ie[/size]

Try this Clubman


----------



## stuart

I have been living back in Ireland for 2.5 years now and all I ever hear is that it is "Rip-off Ireland"

I lived in the UK for 2 years and they called it "Rip-off Britain"

I lived in Barabdos and everyone complained about the prices of everything there also
(Albeit comared to the average wages and food bills they had a more of a point than most)

Sometimes in life, if seomthing is too expensive it is becase you cannot afford it

I know you could go to UK/France/Spain and get things cheaper (since Ireland is a relatively umcompetitve market place)

If you can do it, buy twice as much as you need and sell half at a discount to Irish prices
That should pay for your travel costs

stuart@buyingtolet.ie

PS next week I'll be describing how you can glue capret to the soles of your slippers rather than carpet the whole house


----------



## jem

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> This and many other posts in this thread are comparing us to other countries. You're seeing that things aren't so good in other countries, and then using that as a justification for why things aren't so good here.



First of all i didn't bring other countries originally others did. I used the past of this country. when they complained about not compairing Ireland of 2005 against other countries I did this but my posts havn't suited so either ignore the points of complain that they aren't relevent.


----------



## daltonr

> I lived in the UK for 2 years and they called it "Rip-off Britain"


 
I sat in a London pub with some young British people (late 20's) a few years ago listened to their Rip-Off Britain stories.   And yes, some of the complaints had merit.   But when we did direct comparisons with life in Dublin on things like Public Transport, Car Insurance, Bank Charges, Income Tax, Local Tax, Food, Eating Out, etc, etc.   Dublin came up very poor second.   

None of us had enough experience to directly compare Hospitals or Education, but my feeling was the we probably hold our own in terms of education with most counteries, and are in better shape than an awful lot of countries,  even if it's is a bit uncomfortable.

Back then I wasn't as DOWN on Ireland as I am today so it wasn't me talking down Dublin that did it.  In fact in those days I used to encourage people to visit Ireland.  
I don't do that anymore.

-Rd


----------



## sherib

> Sherib - can I add a number 11 to that as follows;
> (11) Slow death by semantics à la Clubman


 But of course Noor77  To be fair, this thread does seem to have drifted. ClubMan asked for a definition of _Relative Poverty_, so here is one:



> Relative Poverty
> In Ireland and other developed countries, poverty is more usually called *relative poverty*. In this case, people are considered to be living in poverty if their standard of living is substantially less than the general standard of living in society. The government’s National Anti-Poverty Strategy reflects this: People are living in poverty if their income and resources (material, cultural and social) are so inadequate as to preclude them from having a standard of living that is regarded as acceptable by Irish society generally. As a result of inadequate income and resources, people may be excluded and marginalised from participating in activities that are considered the norm for other people


 [broken link removed]

It is obvious from the definition that there can't be a standardised one. It is subjective to a particular country and culture. We would hardly expect a definition of relative poverty to be the same for Niger as for Ireland, would we? A stratified sample survey within a country could be more meaningful, which in turn could be compared to some of our close (geographically) European neighbours. 

The same applies to Quality of Life Indices. *Divorce levels, political freedom, levels of crime, access to health care, Infant Mortality rates, income and home ownership levels* etc would raise our QOL index compared to many countries. But that doesn't necessarily prove we are happy with our quality of life currently. We are - compared to the dismal recent past - but it is _now_ that is in question. If we don't identify our perceived problems now, how can we do anything about them? Surely that is a first step? 

And before someone points it out, it is axiomatic that life satisfaction is very individual and subjective. There will always be people subjectively less or more contented depending on what or who they are comparing themselves with. The relative poverty definition seems to eliminate that bias.


----------



## ClubMan

Noor77 said:
			
		

> Sherib - can I add a number 11 to that as follows;
> 
> (11) Slow death by semantics à la Clubman


Well, if people are going to deflect from the lack of objective evidence supporting their assertions and flippantly dismiss requests for same as mere semantics then there really is little point in trying to engage in reasoned discussion on this issue. 

Fair play to _sherib _for trying to keep the discussion on track and courteous though but methinks that this thread is a lost cause at this stage in spite of that contribution.


----------



## sherib

> Quote by Stuart
> PS next week I'll be describing how you can glue carpet to the soles of your slippers rather than carpet the whole house



Perfect - and just in time!


----------



## ashambles

The CWC saying 21% of the Irish population are at risk of poverty is extremely vague and I'd suggest useless (surely there isn't 79% of the population in the public sector). It's a statistic someone would come out with if the % in actual poverty was too low to be noteworthy. 

The CWC do sound ever so slightly very left of center - I don't really mind but notice they managed to get into the partnership discussions. With the unions and Cori etc. already in there do we really need more woolly headed groups further confusing the issues. Indeed the wage inflation generated by those partnership groups has a signifigant part to play in any so called rip-offs.


----------



## ClubMan

ashambles said:
			
		

> With the unions and Cori etc. already in there do we really need more woolly headed groups further confusing the issues.


And don't forget that some of the groups whose remit is ostensibly to campaign on behalf of the less well off in society actually *opposed* the abolition of the _Groceries Order _[broken link removed] that retaining it would be in the interest of the poor! 


> However, in a joint submission to the review group, the St Vincent de Paul agency, the Combat Poverty Agency and Crosscare opposed repeal.
> 
> They argue that, “due to the pattern of consumption in lower-income and disadvantaged groups and the type of retail outlet available to them, repealing the Groceries Order will have, at best, very little impact on their purchasing power or the range of products they can buy.
> 
> “This may well cause a negative impact by worsening the inequalities that already exist in the groceries market owing to issues of access and availability of low-cost nutritional foodstuffs in low-density and low-income areas.”


----------



## daltonr

> if people are going to deflect from the lack of objective evidence supporting their assertions


 
Do you really need evidence to support the assertion that peoples daily commute in Dublin is growing, and that people are increasingly finding they have to move out of Dublin and commute in to work from Carlow, Meath, Longford, etc.

Are the Ads in the newspapers billing houses in Carlow and Mullingar as within commuting distance to Dublin a Myth?

OK.   Here are some statistics.

Between 1991 and 1997 the amount of Cars in Co Dublin increased 34%   Commuting Times increased by up to 134% from suburbs like Lucan.
[broken link removed]

Quality of Life seems to be static here for the past 3 years.   Irelands score on the Mercer Quality of Life Index has not moved from 2003 to 2005.  Our rank has climbed one place because other countries have moved around us.
There are 5 German cities ranked higher than Ireland.  This should be of interest to Brendan.
http://www.mercerhr.com/pressrelease/details.jhtml/dynamic/idContent/1173105

I don't buy into these rankings to be honest, but if you want to put figures on these things then here they are.  One reason I'd be dubious about attaching a single score to Quality of Life is that it has too many facets of different importance to different people.  

E.g.  Singapore is 1.5 Points lower than Dublin,  Ranking it at 34 compared with Dublins 22.  I presume Singapore's score is dramatically reduced by issues surrounding freedom of speach, etc.   

But Quality of Life and general contentment and pride among the locals as far as I could make out in Singapore was dramatically better than in pretty much any CITY I've ever visited.   It struck me that if the only thing you have to complain about is that you can't complain loudly, then you really have very little to complain about.

Singapore fascinates me and I'm only half way through a book about it so I'm not going to claim it's Utopia.  But it's the most impressed I've ever been by a city on a first impression.

As for the economist ranking us top of the world league.   I'm skeptical at best about the Economist after their bungling of Irelands Alcohol problem.  But their survey is nicely dealt with here:

"This may be the last survey to include evidence of both old and new in a single graph. For now we move into a different grade, to be judged among our peers and by their standards, a modern state distinguished only by its intangible and increasingly elusive "crack". "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1354677,00.html



-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> As for the economist ranking us top of the world league. I'm skeptical at best about the Economist after their bungling of Irelands Alcohol problem. But their survey is nicely dealt with here:
> 
> "This may be the last survey to include evidence of both old and new in a single graph. For now we move into a different grade, to be judged among our peers and by their standards, a modern state distinguished only by its intangible and increasingly elusive "crack". "
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1354677,00.html


Funny that of the two authors of that article, you quote the one (the ever dour _John Waters_) who is more skeptical of the quality of life in Ireland. I thought that this quote from the other (_Joseph O'Connor_) was sort of pertinent to this whole thread:


> [font=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]Yet there is a certain streak of gloom among some of the Dublin commentariat, who refuse to accept that things are better now than they were in the Ireland of Frank McCourt.




[/font]





> It struck me that if the only thing you have to complain about is that you can't complain loudly, then you really have very little to complain about.



Well, [broken link removed] some not so sweet stats about _Singapore _so:




Two years mandatory national service for all citizens and child soldiers in the army (volunteers are accepted from age 16).
c. 7.5% illiteracy rate (over 15 years olds).
Being a hub of the _"Golden Triangle"_ for worldwide heroin smuggling.
Piracy problems that persist in the _Malacca Strait_.
_SARS_.
Far away hills etc...


----------



## RainyDay

RDalton said:
			
		

> It gets me sometimes that I'm surprised that the meal ONLY costs €50 (Without Wine, starters, tea, coffee, dessert etc.).   I think if you eat out a lot in Dublin your sense of what constitutes value for money get's shifted.   That's why trips abroad are such a jarring experience.
> 
> -Rd


Not my experience on a recent trip to the Amalfi coast in Italy. We found some great value restaurants, one great over-priced restaurant, one terrible over-priced restaurant, and some crap restaurants - Much the same as Dublin IMHO.



			
				Ceist Beag said:
			
		

> Fair play daltonr, agree with ye 100%. As for RainyDay - what kind of argument is it to say that if we think we're being ripped off by taxis/shops/dentists that we should open run our own taxi/shop/dentist business? Thats just a daft statement. Are we not allowed to complain about prices any more? So if I complain that going to the dentist costs too much in this country you suggest I should train to become a dentist myself? Sheesh!


Am I not allowed to complain about your complaining? Because that's really all I've seen on this thread - negative whinging with little positive action. How many of those complaining are prepared to get up of their asses & do some thing positive? If you're really, really convinced that Ireland is a rip-off, then emigrate? Or vote differently next time round (most of us won't vote differently, and a fair proportion of us won't vote at all). Or become politically active? Or start a new party if you don't like the current ones? Or contribute to websites like Irishfuelprices.com (how many of the users of the site actually provide input to the site by way of price updates)?

But back to my original point - how do you make your living, Ceist Beag?


----------



## Noor77

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Well, if people are going to deflect from the lack of objective evidence supporting their assertions and flippantly dismiss requests for same as mere semantics then there really is little point in trying to engage in reasoned discussion on this issue.


 
That is a bit unfair Clubman, I tried my best to point you in the direction of the info I was quoting from - I even copied the whole Google link for you!


----------



## ClubMan

Noor77 said:
			
		

> Sherib - can I add a number 11 to that as follows;
> 
> (11) Slow death by semantics à la Clubman


What did this add to the discussion?


----------



## Noor77

ClubMan said:
			
		

> What did this add to the discussion?


 
I'm sorry if I offended you


----------



## daltonr

> Two years mandatory national service for all citizens 

If that's what it takes to have a city as clean and a people as polite, helpful, and well behaved as I witnessed, then let's get some of that.   Don't the Swiss have something similar.  Seems to work there too.

>Being a hub of the _"Golden Triangle"_ for worldwide heroin smuggling.

A transit point for golden triangle drugs is how the CIA describe it,  but if you interpret that as a hub of the triangle then ok.   You forgot to include what the CIA said about Irelands drugs.  At least as bad if not worse.

Since you bring up the CIA figures,  let's go hog wild.

                                            Singapore       Ireland
Infant Mortality                       2.29/1000       5.39/1000
Life Expectancy                       81.62 Years    77.56 Years
HIV/AIDS                                0.2%             0.1%
Literacy                                 92.5%            98%
Unemployment Rates                3.4%              4.3%
Population Below Poverty Line    N/A                10%

I do'nt know if NA means they don't have figures, or there's no poverty.   I presume
it's the former.   But whatever it is I doubt their figure is 10% or anywhere near it.

As I've said before I'm not going to go about promoting Singapore as a place to move to because I've only spent 4 days there,  and I've only really started reading about the place.   But if you're going to throw up figures to show that it's far away hills aren't greener then those close to home then you really should show the figures for home too.

Rainyday:



> Or vote differently next time round (most of us won't vote differently, and a fair proportion of us won't vote at all).


 
I do vote very carefully.



> Or become politically active?


 
Been there bought the T-Shirt (Literally).   Realised that membership of a party was a was of time and energy.  



> Because that's really all I've seen on this thread - negative whinging with little positive action.  How many of those complaining are prepared to get up of their asses & do some thing positive?


 
You may not like it but my "positive action" is persuasion.   If I got myself a soap box and stood in a town square to lambast the government and propose alternative policies you'd presumably approve and call it positive political action.   

In the past when if described alternative policies you've generally agreed with them.

All I'm doing is using technology to make the soap box bigger.  From comments on here it seems some people are pursueded, or have agreed all along.

I'm absolutely delighted that someone with an even BIGGER soap box, Eddie Hobbs is now spreading exactly the same message, and that message is meeting with popular approval by all accounts.

Perhaps all is not lost.   Perhaps after a few years of banging on about this people are starting to realise that they've been sold a pup.    OF course there will be some like yourself who disagree, of course some will ridicule what I'm saying as "Boring", "Tiresome" etc.   Of course there will be the "If you don't like it, get out" brigade.

But that's political discussion.    I don't think being a foot soldier for a political party is a great idea.  But if people want to go that way then good luck to them.   I think my way is at least as likely to get results.   And it doesn't involve bothering people during their tea and trying to get them to vote for my candidate.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> If that's what it takes to have a city as clean and a people as polite, helpful, and well behaved as I witnessed, then let's get some of that. Don't the Swiss have something similar. Seems to work there too.


How do you make the linkage between training people to kill others and them being polite, helpful and well behaved?



> You forgot to include what the CIA said about Irelands drugs.  At least as bad if not worse.
> 
> Since you bring up the CIA figures,  let's go hog wild.
> 
> Singapore       Ireland...


My point was not to compare _Ireland _and _Singapore _- it was simply to point out that _Singapore _was not necessarily the _Utopia _that you seemed to paint it as and that it, like most other places on _Earth_, had its own set of problems.



> Population Below Poverty Line    N/A                10%
> 
> I do'nt know if NA means they don't have figures, or there's no poverty.   I presume
> it's the former.   But whatever it is I doubt their figure is 10% or anywhere near it.


Why do you doubt that figure? Do you have a different one?



> As I've said before I'm not going to go about promoting Singapore as a place to move to because I've only spent 4 days there, and I've only really started reading about the place. But if you're going to throw up figures to show that it's far away hills aren't greener then those close to home then you really should show the figures for home too.


Not at all - because, as I said, my point was not do to a comparative analysis.



> You may not like it but my "positive action" is persuasion.
> 
> ...
> 
> All I'm doing is using technology to make the soap box bigger. From comments on here it seems some people are pursueded, or have agreed all along.


Perhaps you should aim for a wider audience than AAM will reach so. After all, in spite of it being relatively popular I'm sure that only a tiny fraction of the general public actually read it. There could be more efficient ways for your to disseminate your views and reach a wider audience with the same amount of effort if you are serious about persuading people and talking them around to your way of thinking. This is not a sarcastic comment by the way - I am merely making a constructive suggestion even though I don't agree with much of what you say.



> Perhaps all is not lost. Perhaps after a few years of banging on about this people are starting to realise that they've been sold a pup. OF course there will be some like yourself who disagree, of course some will ridicule what I'm saying as "Boring", "Tiresome" etc. Of course there will be the "If you don't like it, get out" brigade.


It might also help if you did not engage in name calling and try to browbeat those of a different opinion into submission or dismiss them in this way as this will merely tend to alientate many of the people that you are trying to persuade.


----------



## soc

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Singapore was not necessarily the Utopia that you seemed to paint it as



For someone who nit picks everyone else who posts on this forum, perhaps you should assess your own posts before posting.  Daltonr said:



			
				daltonr said:
			
		

> I'm not going to claim it's Utopia



All I can say, is thank GOD I have the freedom to leave this place and move to somewhere better... which looks to be fairly soon.  I pity all you people out there who don't have multiple residencies.

-soc


----------



## ClubMan

soc said:
			
		

> For someone who nit picks everyone else who posts on this forum, perhaps you should assess your own posts before posting. Daltonr said:


My mistake - well spotted. It doesn't fundamentally affect the main gist of my post though.


> All I can say, is thank GOD I have the freedom to leave this place and move to somewhere better... which looks to be fairly soon.


Just out of curiosity where are you moving to and why do you consider it better than here?


> I pity all you people out there who don't have multiple residencies.


Why? Do you have multiple residencies in spite of the alleged rip-offs that you are subjected to here?


----------



## delgirl

> A transit point for golden triangle drugs is how the CIA describe it, but if you interpret that as a hub of the triangle then ok. You forgot to include what the CIA said about Irelands drugs. At least as bad if not worse.


 What the CIA info actually says is   "as a transportation and financial services hub, Singapore is *vulnerable*, despite strict laws and enforcement, *to be used* as a transit point for Golden Triangle heroin"

This is very different to ClubMan's "Being a hub of the _"Golden Triangle"_ for worldwide heroin smuggling".

Have to agree with daltonr on this one and I'm not going to quote any stats or excerpts from reports etc., but will rely on life experience and opinion.

I lived there for 2 years and feel that Ireland could learn a lot from Singapore particularly in the policing, drug laws and enforcement and religious tolerance practiced in this wonderful country.

You can walk along any of the city's streets at any hour of the night and not fear being attacked by a drunken yob, mugged by a junkie or raped by sex fiend as the policing is second to none and the penalties for any of these offences are severe enough to act as an effective deterrent.  I certainly wouldn't do this in Dublin.

The religious harmony that exists between the Muslims, Hindus, Taoists, Christians etc. has to be experienced to be believed.  Everyone celebrates Ramadan, Eid, Christmas, Diwali etc. regardless of their religion and there is no animosity towards others of a different faith.

During the time we lived there, we felt that *the amount of tax we paid was in proportion with the level of services (public transport, health, education, law enforcement, waste disposal and city cleansing, etc.)  on offer* - and that, in imho, is why so many people in Ireland feel that they are being ripped off.


----------



## ClubMan

delgirl said:
			
		

> What the CIA info actually says is   "as a transportation and financial services hub, Singapore is *vulnerable*, despite strict laws and enforcement, *to be used* as a transit point for Golden Triangle heroin"
> 
> This is very different to ClubMan's "Being a hub of the _"Golden Triangle"_ for worldwide heroin smuggling".


Mea culpa.


----------



## ClubMan

I just noticed that _Singapore _retains the death penalty which would put it off the map for me personally no matter how great the quality of living was.


----------



## Ceist Beag

I'm sorry rainyDay, I must have missed something - your original point was about what job I have?


----------



## ClubMan

[broken link removed] contains some interesting reading on crime statistics worldwide.


----------



## soc

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity where are you moving to and why do you consider it better than here?



Hmm... let's see.

I work in Central Dublin... thanks to the pitiful infrastructure, to get to work I have to drive to work, then catch a bus (and I only live in Firhouse!).. therefore to get to work I foot the bill for fuel, and an annual bus ticket.

*Infrastructure/Income Tax/Road Tax:  Value for money?  No!*

Having to rely on public transport to get me to work, and having to drive there, you'd think that with all the taxes, etc I pay there would be such thing as a park and ride... but NO!  I have to park my car on a street.

*Infrastructure/Income Tax/Road Tax:  Value for money?  No!*

Now...having paid my road taxes, I'm entitled to park my car on a public road - but some sh!ts thought that they would deflate 2 tyres on each car that was parked on the road, that I parked on.  Note, this road is just down the road from a Garda station.

*Infrastructure/Income Tax/Road Tax:  Value for money?  No!*

I slowly manage to drive my car to the closest petrol station, and pumped each tyre up, which took ages.  I then promptly went to Donnybrook Garda Station to report the criminal damage.  To do this, I had to park in a PAY and DISPLAY carpark.  20c buys 2 minutes parking!

*Paying for Carpark:  Value for money?  No!*

Now, having parked my car & paid for the privilege - I walk to the Garda station - and reported the matter.  Did they write anything down?  No.  Did they ask for my name?  No.  Did they ask for my car reg?  No.  All they said was 'we'll send someone out, to have a look'.  I was bitterly disappointed in their lack of enthusiasm to investigate the matter.  I don't think my complaint was even registered in their system... no wonder crime is artificially low!

*Govt Provided Service:  Value for money?  No!*

By chance I happened to be going to the dentist shortly after this incident.  On being given the all clear, I was told that I could claim my visit on PRSI, if I have been contributing to it.  Damn right I've been contributing to it... hang on there's a catch!  To claim on PRSI, you have to have been contributing to it for 5+ years! Come on!  I mean, the visit would cost me €60... but to claim on PRSI, it will only cost me €30.  The state is only contributing to €30 towards the cost, but that is only if I have paid:
(SALARY * 5% [PRSI]) * 5 years

Regardless of how long I've been paying PRSI, I should be entitled to claim on it.  That's the point to 'public' insurance.

*PRSI Contributions:  Value for money?  No!*



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Why? Do you have multiple residencies in spite of the alleged rip-offs that you are subjected to here?



By residencies, I mean ability to live in other countries (citizenships).

I certainly don't feel that I'm getting value for money here... that's what defines 'Rip-off Republic'.  Ireland has a put-up and shut-up kind of ethos.  

-soc


----------



## Humpback

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I just noticed that _Singapore _retains the death penalty which would put it off the map for me personally no matter how great the quality of living was.


 
Are you likely to get caught doing something that will mean you'd be in danger of being sentenced to death then Clubman???


----------



## ClubMan

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Are you likely to get caught doing something that will mean you'd be in danger of being sentenced to death then Clubman???


No - I just have a conscientious objection to the death penalty and would not live in a country that retained it.


			
				soc said:
			
		

> Ireland has a put-up and shut-up kind of ethos.


What do you mean by this?


> Hmm... let's see.


So for those reasons above you are planning to move abroad? Sounds a bit drastic to me but good luck with it all the same.


----------



## Humpback

ClubMan said:
			
		

> No - I just have a conscientious objection to the death penalty and would not live in a country that retained it.


 
And obviously you're entitled to your opinion and subsequent choice of location to live.

However, how does the presence or absence of the death penalty affect your quality of life?

If Ireland had the death penalty today, and removed it tomorrow, all of the complaints (valid or otherwise) on this thread, wouldn't go away - everyones (on this board who hasn't committed a capital crime) quality of life here wouldn't improve because of the removal of the death penalty.


----------



## ClubMan

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> And obviously you're entitled to your opinion and subsequent choice of location to live.
> 
> However, how does the presence or absence of the death penalty affect your quality of life?
> 
> If Ireland had the death penalty today, and removed it tomorrow, all of the complaints (valid or otherwise) on this thread, wouldn't go away - everyones (on this board who hasn't committed a capital crime) quality of life here wouldn't improve because of the removal of the death penalty.


I would argue that the retention of the death penalty has a generalised and pervasive brutalising effect on the society of the country in question but obviously it is hard to quantify this in objective terms. Insofar as I believe that to be the case the presence of the death penalty would adversely affect my quality of life in such a country as I would consider myself partly and collectively responsible for state sponsored killing. A society that retains the right to kill citizens is not one that I would choose to be part of. But we're really getting off topic now as far as I can see.


----------



## Humpback

ClubMan said:
			
		

> But we're really getting off topic now as far as I can see.


 
You brought it up!!!!


----------



## Betsy Og

ClubMan said:
			
		

> My mistake - well spotted. It doesn't fundamentally affect the main gist of my post though.


 
Thats the spirit in which the Bulletin Board should operate, there's often inordinate amounts of hair splitting that has to be suffered through here (and I'm not pointing any fingers).


----------



## ClubMan

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> You brought it up!!!!


I know. That wasn't intended as any sort of criticism of you.


----------



## MissRibena

Singapore sounds lovely.  I have no experience myself but friends of mine were there on holiday and raved about it (although they did say it was so perfect that they felt a bit afraid to put a foot wrong).  

How are womens' rights in Singapore? Is there true sexual equality and freedom?  Is there tolerance of minorities outside of religious tolerance?

Rebecca


----------



## Debasser

FYI: from RTE website:

18 August 2005*
Eddie Hobbs' new show gets record viewers*[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 

A record number of viewers tuned in to watch 'Rip Off Republic' on Monday 15 August on RTÉ One. 

Hosted by personal finance expert Eddie Hobbs, the show attracted cver 667,000 viewers which corresponds to a share of 51.5% of all those watching television at that time

The first programme in the series had already drawn a huge audience of over half a million viewers and the latest programme jumped by one third. 

On Monday's show, Eddie took a look at 'rip-off's' in the area of entertainment. Part three will be transmitted on 29 August at 9.30pm on RTÉ One and will take a close look at the area of transport. 

The series is filmed in front of a live audience at the Helix in Dublin City University.

Its presenter Eddie Hobbs achieved success last year with his 'Show me the Money' series which helped people to overcome personal debt

[/font]


----------



## daltonr

That's fantastic news.  Like the message or not it's nice to see something other than Reality TV and Soaps get a big viewership.

Does the 51.5% relate only to people watching RTE,  or is it RTE, TV3, Foreign Channels etc?

-Rd


----------



## soc

ClubMan said:
			
		

> So for those reasons above you are planning to move abroad? Sounds a bit drastic to me but good luck with it all the same.



Those 'reasons' were 1 day in my life in Ireland!  There comes a point, when 1 day, becomes 1 day too many.

I've provided evidence of rip-off in my post... from ONE DAY in my Irish life... prey tell how I am NOT being ripped-off by Ireland?  Clubman, you scrutinise two statements in my post, and ignore the evidential stuff...  please advise how I (and others), aren't being ripped-off re my post (and what I posted is only a fraction of a bigger picture).

-soc


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> That's fantastic news. Like the message or not it's nice to see something other than Reality TV and Soaps get a big viewership.


I would agree with that. However I was not one of the 51.5% because I think I was watching _Cork City _versus _Shelbourne _on _RTE Two _at the time.


----------



## ClubMan

soc said:
			
		

> I've provided evidence of rip-off in my post... from ONE DAY in my Irish life... prey tell how I am NOT being ripped-off by Ireland? Clubman, you scrutinise two statements in my post, and ignore the evidential stuff... please advise how I (and others), aren't being ripped-off re my post


I have presented my side of the counter argument in detail in this thread which might be of interest to you.


----------



## babydays

I haven't seen both episodes completely but saw most of the most recent one. 

I like the programme in principle - I think that as a nation in general (waiting for my lambasting for generalising!) we tend to accept prices as they are. We also tend to accept bad service (and then tip for it!). 

So I think the value in this programme is that is reminds us to be a bit more critical and not to just accept as is. 

But I do find that it is v. one-sided. Eddie is up there like a school-teacher telling all us innocents that we can get better. The whole set-up of the oohing and aah-ing audience with teacher Eddie lecturing us all is irritating. Also is a very pop-pseudo approach to these issues. Could do with some debate and presentation of the other side of the story - not just quotations of one person and then slating that position. 
Agree that the comparisons with SA were a bit rediculous.


----------



## Noor77

From page 5 of todays Evening Herald

piece entitled "Fast Eddie's Show breaks TV records" !!!

...RTE said today "this phenomenal audience figure (667,000) marks it as the top factual programme this year to date and in the past five summers"....

Not bad


----------



## daltonr

> The whole set-up of the oohing and aah-ing audience with teacher Eddie lecturing us all is irritating.


 
I did find the Audience participation (if you'd call it that) irritating.   It was far worse to actually be in the audience than it came accross on TV.  I was up in the balcony thank goodness so I could avoid it.



> ...RTE said today "this phenomenal audience figure (667,000) marks it as the top factual programme this year to date and in the past five summers"....


 
Prime Time did some far more impressive and important shows.   It's a credit to Eddie's Team that they managed to find a format that would allow serious issues like this to get to a wide audience.

Hopefully RTE will pick up on this and use the format in the future to tackle other serious issues.    I wonder is it Eddie or the Title of the show that's pulling in the crowds.

If the figures keep rising (up over 100,000 from the first show) then that will be seriously impressive.

-Rd


----------



## Noor77

daltonr said:
			
		

> I wonder is it Eddie or the Title of the show that's pulling in the crowds. -Rd


 
I think it is a mixture of both the above. I was also in the audience (for the last show) and it _was_ annoying at times but it was also interesting. I think it is impressive that RTE feel they can air a programme that to a large degree attacks the hand that feeds them. It is also impressive that the public are willing to watch, en masse, a current affairs programme - even if it is quite simplistic in its style at times.


----------



## Humpback

Noor77 said:
			
		

> I think it is a mixture of both the above. I was also in the audience (for the last show) and it _was_ annoying at times but it was also interesting.


 
Unfortunately, having spoken to someone who was in the audience for the last show, I don't think it'll be finishing on a high. They don't rate the last one compared to the first 2. 
Though, if the figures keep increasing, that won't really matter much.

With regards to the oohhs and the aaahhhhs, having been in the audience for the first show myself, some of the sound effects were definitely dubbed in afterwards. So, for example, where there is some chatter in the background that implies a reaction, there were at least 3 occasions when there was no actual reaction in the crowd.


----------



## MissRibena

Am very interested to hear that the next episode is about transport and delighted that the show is getting such a good response.  But much and all as I'm interested and much and all as I like Eddie, how am I supposed to give up a double episode of _Lost_??!  How has my life been reduced to this 

Rebecca


----------



## Noor77

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> some of the sound effects were definitely dubbed in afterwards. So, for example, where there is some chatter in the background that implies a reaction, there were at least 3 occasions when there was no actual reaction in the crowd.


 
I have been thinking this myself too. We were a very quiet audience on the last night ... a lot of the time we were not exactly sure when to react!


----------



## Noor77

MissRibena said:
			
		

> much and all as I like Eddie, how am I supposed to give up a double episode of _Lost_??! How has my life been reduced to this
> 
> Rebecca


 
I'm in exactly the same boat Miss R!! The last two Rip Offs, I have only watched the first 30 minutes before switching over to get my Lost fix  

It's a hard life!


----------



## fobs

> Originally Posted by *MissRibena*
> _much and all as I like Eddie, how am I supposed to give up a double episode of Lost??! How has my life been reduced to this
> 
> Rebecca_


 
Exactly my sentiments! LOST is my current favourite RTE screened show and up until now used to watch "Silent Witness" on BBC1 but this finished last week so next week will tune into Eddie and thus be able to contribute to the discussion!


----------



## daltonr

_> But we're really getting off topic now as far as I can see._

Ah!  What the heck.  There's another Rip-Off Thread running in parallel.   And Clubman has made a very interesting point.....

>I would argue that the retention of the death penalty has a generalised and >pervasive brutalising effect on the society of the country in question but obviously it >is hard to quantify this in objective terms. 

I would have strongly agreed with you up to about 6 months ago.  I have in fact strongly argued against the Death Penalty on this Forum.  My reasoning being that it's benefits are questionable and the risk of being wrong is too great for such questionable benefits.   I still would be against the Death Penalty,  but I would not rule out living in a country that had it.

I'd be interested in an answer to this question.   If Ireland introduced a Death Penalty.
(Hypothetical since it won't happen and unless we leave the EU can't happen).   But go with me on this....   Would you emigrate?  or stay and fight to have it repealed?

In other words is your objection to it so absolute that it would force you to leave,  or only strong enough to prevent you moving to a country that has the penalty?

At the moment I'm going through a period of re-examining a few things that I've always taken for granted.  Such as....

1. Very Harsh Punishment is not a deterant against crime and can in fact be counter productive.

In the US greater numbers of Police and Longer Prison sentances have actually had an effect, contrary to what I had previously thought.   Check out Freakonomics by Stephen Levitt for this and other very interesting insights about crime and other issues.

In Singapore I could not find Grafitti.  Including passing a railway yard which is usually the mothership for grafitti.   After 3 or 4 days of searching we found a tiny bit.

Talking to the locals they said the harsh punishments are rarely required because people dont commit the crimes.   That sounds like an effective deterrant to me.   However I think there's more to it than that.   The deterrant has to be coupled with effective policing.   If you don't believe you'll get caught, the punishment is irrelevant.

Singapore locals believed that on average if you reported someone committing a crime they would be on the seen and the person would be taken away within minutes.  

They also said that if a person is found wandering  in a residential area the Police WILL ask that person to explain why they are there and if they don't have a good reason they'll be asked to leave.   Harsh?  Yes.  But it would have gotten the guys who smashed my windscreen out of my neighbourhood before they did the deed.   And they wouldn't be still there a few hours later and on subsequent nights.

2. Freedom of Speech and other similar rights of the individual are of paramount importance.  They are the first thing that need to be guarded in a society.

This is the most troubling one.   I would have once accepted this without question,  and even now it makes me uneasy to think I'm questioning it.   In Asia there seems to be a prioritising of the well being of the community over the rights of the individual.   

We think we have this in the west but we don't.    Look at the hassle and backlash when we tried to protect the rights of the group bystanders from the passive smoke of the individual.   The smokers couldn't understand why their rights were being trampled on.   The smoking ban was so out of character that it comsumed the nation for a year and got worldwide coverage.

So what happens if a government creates a Utopian society but can only preserve it by surpressing public dissent.   My Western Liberal side bristles at the thought.   But if the Society that is being protected is truly better in all other respects then am I imposing a lower quality of life in order to protect some abstract idea of freedom, by living in the West?

E.g. I have the right to park my car outside my house and not have the window kicked in.   I have the right to expect such a crime to be investigated properly.    In Ireland these rights are not protected,   is my right to criticise the government sufficient compensation?   I'd have to say no.    I'd much prefer to be protected so that I didn't even need a right to critise the government.

I'd have to live in Singapore for a year or two convince myself on this, but it's a sufficiently interesting question to me that it alone would be a reason to move there.

3. It is the governments job to ensure that the least well off in society are protected by a safety net.  This is best achieved by taking money from the better off through taxes and distributing it to the least well off through welfare and services.

This might be the most contentious.  In Singapore if you are broke or unemployed it is the responsibility of your Family to look after you.   This might mean a grown man needing to borrow from his brother to make ends meet.    This would very quickly produce a pressure to get up off your ass and at least reduce the amount you need to be subsidused.   Even if my brother can't ever make ends meet,  I'd feel a lot better helping him out if he was doing everything in his power to make a contribution.

If my brother sat on his ass and watched Big Brother I'd be less inclined to buy him a new Jacket and Shoes.

I'm told the Welfare model does allow for people who genuinely can't rely on others for help.   I'd need more info before I'm convinved.   But I'm certainly intrigued by such a system.

Of course any suggestion to introduce such a welfare system here would be immediately shot down and would probably end the political career of the person who proposed it.

-Rd


----------



## RainyDay

Ceist Beag said:
			
		

> I'm sorry rainyDay, I must have missed something - your original point was about what job I have?


In a roundabout way, yes - so what do you do to earn a crust?


----------



## RainyDay

soc said:
			
		

> Now, having parked my car & paid for the privilege - I walk to the Garda station - and reported the matter.  Did they write anything down?  No.  Did they ask for my name?  No.  Did they ask for my car reg?  No.  All they said was 'we'll send someone out, to have a look'.  I was bitterly disappointed in their lack of enthusiasm to investigate the matter.  I don't think my complaint was even registered in their system... no wonder crime is artificially low!


Did you tell them 'here's my name & reg so you can record this'? Did you tell them 'I want this incident reported in your system'?


----------



## fobs

> by rainyday
> so what do you do to earn a crust?


 
while i might disagree with what some contributors say I don't think what someone does for a living in this discussion should add/detract from their argument?
Isn't this getting TOO personal and getting off the issues raised in the discussion.


----------



## daltonr

> Did you tell them 'here's my name & reg so you can record this'? Did you tell them 'I want this incident reported in your system'?


 
I'd have thought Garda training would be sufficient that the Gardai would know how to handle a reported Crime. I didn't realise we need to prompt the Gardai as to what information they need to gather etc.

Perhaps that's why I was dissapointed with how they handled damage to my car. I didn't tell them how to do their job in simple enough terms.

Why would someone go to the trouble of visiting a Garda station to report a crime if they didn't want the Gardai to at least make a note of it? Rainyday have you ever reported a crime to the Gardai but then said "Don't worry about recording it, or invetigating it, I'm just here for a bit of a chat".

It's the consumer's fault if the cost of living rises, it's the victims fault if their crime is not even recorded by the Gardai when they report it. Sweet divine, what the hell is happening to this country when intelligent people start thinking like this?

-Rd


----------



## RainyDay

My point (as I'm sure you're already aware) is that there is little point in complaining on bulletin boards or to TD's or to Joe Duffy if it's not important enough for you to complain to the Guard in the first place.


----------



## daltonr

> My point (as I'm sure you're already aware) is that there is little point in complaining on bulletin boards or to TD's or to Joe Duffy if it's not important enough for you to complain to the Guard in the first place.


 
You asked someone who went to a Garda station and complained and got no reaction if they spoon fed them the details of the case and insisted that it be recorded in their system.

How has that any relevance to somone who doesn't complain to the Gardai and only moans on a bulletin board. soc said she went to the gardai. Drove specifically to the station to talk to them.

I think you might need to re-read her post, in particular the bit you quoted.



> I walk to the Garda station - and reported the matter. Did they write anything down? No. Did they ask for my name? No. Did they ask for my car reg? No. All they said was 'we'll send someone out, to have a look'.


 
-Rd


----------



## RainyDay

daltonr said:
			
		

> I think you might need to re-read her post, in particular the bit you quoted.
> 
> -Rd


Thanks for your advice, but it's really not necessary. I read the post fully. I'm refer to her complaint about the garda handling of her initial complaint, not her initial complaint itself. I'm wondering why she is complaining here about the garda handling, if she didn't complain to the Garda in question first.


----------



## daltonr

> Thanks for your advice, but it's really not necessary. I read the post fully. I'm refer to her complaint about the garda handling of her initial complaint, not her initial complaint itself. I'm wondering why she is complaining here about the garda handling, if she didn't complain to the Garda in question first.


 
We don't know what action or inaction will follow from the Gardai not taking her complaint seriously.   In my own case I had to hassle the Gardai for two days and threaten a complaint to the Garda complaints board before I got ANY action. 

The issue here is that when she went to the trouble of reporting a crime to the Gardai they ignored it.  Didn't even ask for sufficient information to register it as a crime.   And your response is that she should have forced them to record it.

Well perhaps she should have forced them.   But the very fact that she has to force them is shocking.   And is certainly worthy of mention on a forum like this.

I think when people hear the crime figures announced with great fanfare each year,  they might like to be aware of crimes reported but never recorded.

-Rd


----------



## jem

lads at this stage the tread is way way off subject. sugest you start another tread and get back to topic on this one.


----------



## daltonr

I think the review is probably over.  Everyone has nailed their colours to the mast.

To sum up,

Everyone even those that dislike the show seem happy that a current affairs/serious issue type program has been successful.

Some questions about the show's ability to get it's facts and figures straight.  This has led some people to take a strong dislike to the show.   Others are willing to let that go because they think the overall message still has merit.

Most people seem impressed with the format with some dissenters thinking it's patronising. Etc.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> To sum up,
> 
> ...
> 
> Some questions about the show's ability to get it's facts and figures straight. This has led some people to take a strong dislike to the show. Others are willing to let that go because they think the overall message still has merit.


Not to mention that some people question the fundamental premise on which the programme is posited in the first place - i.e. that we live in a "Rip-off Republic".


----------



## daltonr

Fair enough Good point.  Although we've hammered it out now and decided that those people are in such a minority that they are just statistical anomalies.   Didn't you get the memo?  

Oh dear,  I've re-opened the can of worms,  so nearly closed.  
Forget I said anything.


It probably is worth saying that there is such diversity in terms of what people think Rip-Off Ireland means that it's almost a meaningless phrase.   A Case of consumers using Branding against businesses and government.   Take a meaningless phrase or slogan,  say it enough time,  attach it to everything to that it instantly captures a feeling,  and then use it to sell/justify other things.

The Rip-Off brand seems to have been organically grown.  The TV Show brilliantly exploited it.  Fine Gael tried the same thing with their wesite.   If they are as succesful as Eddie's show they'll have 51.5% of the seats in the next dail.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> It probably is worth saying that there is such diversity in terms of what people think Rip-Off Ireland means that it's almost a meaningless phrase.


Yes - in fact, in my opinion, it's even less than that - it's a meaningless concept.



> The Rip-Off brand seems to have been organically grown. The TV Show brilliantly exploited it. Fine Gael tried the same thing with their wesite. If they are as succesful as Eddie's show they'll have 51.5% of the seats in the next dail.


Actually percentage share of the vote [broken link removed] into percentage share of the seats.


----------



## soc

RainyDay said:
			
		

> I'm wondering why she is complaining here about the garda handling, if she didn't complain to the Garda in question first.



Well given that I was having to dash to a Dentist appointment, due to unexpectantly wasting time having to pump up 2 tyres + go to the Garda... I didn't exactly have time to stand there and complain - I was going to follow the matter up today, after work (which I just did).

FYI:  the crime WASN'T recorded on PULSE.  Therefore the crime was never officially documented, and thus wouldn't contribute to actual crime statistics.  I told the Garda that I didn't want the crime to go 'unseen', and wanted it recorded on the system, and a PULSE id given to me.  I gave all details of crime - and now have a PULSE number.

Now, considering that I went out of my way to report a crime, and it wasn't recorded, I feel RIPPED-OFF that a service, which I pay for through taxes, wasn't provided.  The Garda service, I'm supposed to get for my money is:


Community Commitment
Personal Protection
State Security

according to their Mission Statement.  

Only upon complaining did I get some 'service'... which brings me back to my earlier statement - that Ireland has a put-up and shut-up ethos... it is this that contributes to the Irish being 'ripped-off'.  Only when one kicks up a stink does a situation get rectified/corrected or addressed.... Hence Eddie's nappy & water suggestions.  

-soc


----------



## ClubMan

soc said:
			
		

> which brings me back to my earlier statement - that Ireland has a put-up and shut-up ethos...


I asked you to explain this earlier. Do you mean that we are expected (by whom?) to put up with something (bad service?) and shut up about it (and not complain?)? If so who do you feel is imposing this pressure on you/us? As I have mentioned elsewhere I feel that the most appropriate way to highlight and deal with real problems/rip-offs is to complain and do one's best to have the rectified. 



> Only upon complaining did I get some 'service'.


I'm a bit confused - what service did you finally receive as a result of complaining? Was this as a result of complaining today or during the original incident? Was this service an improvement on the service that you originally received?



> Only when one kicks up a stink does a situation get rectified/corrected or addressed....


So did you get the situation addressed in the end?

Earlier you said


> I don't think my complaint was even registered in their system... no wonder crime is artificially low!


and now you say more certainly:


> FYI:  the crime WASN'T recorded on PULSE.


Can you explain this seeming discrepancy please? Is the second comment made in the light of checking up on matters today? Was the incident recorded after your complaint today?


----------



## daltonr

> Yes - in fact, in my opinion, it's even less than that - it's a meaningless concept.



But even you will have to admit that there's a very real sense (even if you don't share it) that something is wrong and that feeling is growing and being shared by more and more people.  The phrase Rip-Off seems to encapsulate something for an awful lot of people,  the phrase wouldn't have found such wide use if it didn't hit a nerve.

The fact that over half a million people are tuning in indicates that this Brand has meaning to a lot of people even if you and I can't agree what that meaning is.

A Rip-Off is an exploitation.   Perhaps the popularity of the phrase reflects a sense of being exploited.    

Here are a few reasons why people might feel exploited,  I've tried to be balanced and include counter arguments.

*People look back to a time when one salary was sufficient to buy a house and now find themselves needing two salaries AND help from their parents.*

They are forgetting that many families were lucky to have any salary to survive on.
We should be thankful that now it's possible for two people to get a job.

Possibly true, but perhaps the people who feel most Ripped off are the ones who grew up in homes where one parent did have a job, and it was enough to get by and buy a house.


*People look back to a time when childcare was less of an issue because one parent could stay at home, and now find they pay more for childcare than for their mortgage.*


*People now find that they spend so much of their time either working or commuting to and from work that they get to spend less time with their kids than their parents did.*

If they didn't have a job they'd have lots of time with their kids but it mightn't be quality time.   They probably didn't spend as much quality time with their own working parent as they think they did.

But at least they spent a lot of time with one of their parents.   Kids today where both parents are working are certainly getting a raw deal compared to the upbringing I enjoyed.

*People are constantly told they live in a low tax economy but when they total up the taxes they pay and then add the additional cost of living that's caused by the government compounding other taxes they question just how low is low.*

Compared to the 80's taxes are low.  Compared to our neighbours some of our taxes e.g. corporation tax is very low.  This is the justification for calling it a low tax economy.

Perhaps we should call Ireland a No Frills economy.   We've adopted the Ryan Air idea that if you cut the up front cost (income tax), you can convince people to accept a lower level of service.   Then to make your profits you create additional charges for everything.

*People see €50million wasted here, €100m wasted there with little apparent concern on the part of government and then wonder why a €40 credit card tax has to be introduced to shore up the public finances.*

There is wastage in all governments and all big businesses and always has been.   The difference now is that there is greater scrutiny, therefore greater outrage.   

This is true of course, but people might feel a little less exploited if there was a little more humility in the face of such waste and errors, instead of a brass necked insistance that there was no mistake, it was money well spent, and we the people just don't understand.

*People pay €10 for a fantasic meal in one country and then come home and pay €25 for a lower quality meal and understanably think it's the restaurant ripping them off.
*

It's understandable to blame the restaurant.  Most people don't have the time or the inclination to think it through and see that it's probably caused in the main by their government rather than the restaurant owner.  Rates, Rent, Regulations, VAT, Tax, Excise Duty, etc, etc, etc.    It's entirely possible that the cheaper foreign restaurant is making a bigger profit.

The consumer might be wrong about who's to blame, but they are entitled to feel agrieved.  They're entiled to compare what they can enjoy with their months pay with what people in other countries can enjoy. 

If they learn that in fact the restaurant owner has succesfully lobbied to stop other restaurants opening in the area, then they are entitled to feel exploited.




> Actually percentage share of the vote does not directly translate into percentage share of the seats.


 
I thought that as I was writing it.   I wanted to test my theory that you'd be the one to call me on it.   

-Rd


----------



## soc

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I asked you to explain this earlier. Do you mean that we are expected (by whom?) to put up with something (bad service?) and shut up about it (and not complain?)?


whom = those providing the good/service
something = inadequate good/service for money paid
shut up = do nothing/not complain



> If so who do you feel is imposing this pressure on you/us?


As a nation, the Irish very rarely complain....  I refuse to be a part of that.


> I feel that the most appropriate way to highlight and deal with real problems/rip-offs is to complain and do one's best to have the rectified.


But why should I have to complain in the first place??  Why can't I just be given the proper good/service for the money I pay?  



> I'm a bit confused - what service did you finally receive as a result of complaining?


That the crime was recorded.  If the Garda managed to bag the d!ckheads that committed the crime... even better.  But I wanted this to be recorded, and if possible addressed.



> Was this as a result of complaining today??


Yes.  



> Was this service an improvement on the service that you originally received?


Yes, I got what I wanted *minimally*, which was for the crime to be acknowledged....  I want to ensure that any crimes committed on me are included in national statistics...  Again, if the perpetrators are caught...even better



> Can you explain this seeming discrepancy please? Is the second comment made in the light of checking up on matters today? Was the incident recorded after your complaint today?



As mentioned in my post, I followed up with the Garda *after* work today... of which I found out that the crime wasn't recorded on PULSE (as suspected) and told them 





			
				soc said:
			
		

> that I didn't want the crime to go 'unseen', and wanted it recorded on the system, and a PULSE id given to me.



The incident was only recorded on system after my complaint today.


-soc


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> But even you will have to admit that there's a very real sense (even if you don't share it) that something is wrong and that feeling is growing and being shared by more and more people. The phrase Rip-Off seems to encapsulate something for an awful lot of people, the phrase wouldn't have found such wide use if it didn't hit a nerve.


Not necessarily - I believe (not least of all based on debates around here) that many people go around blaming "bad stuff" on "rip-off Ireland" without thinking too deeply about it. When presented with facts that rebut some of their prejudices many of them are likely to recognise that their assumptions may be flawed. 



> The fact that over half a million people are tuning in indicates that this Brand has meaning to a lot of people even if you and I can't agree what that meaning is.


Up to 300,000 people have tuned in to watch _eircom League _games on _TV _in the past few years but the average crowds are still in the low thousands each week. Watching TV is easy and passive. Being a bit more active about stuff takes a little too much effort for many people.




> *People look back to a time when ...*


*

*How do these comparative analyses to the past tally with your earlier criticism of others' comments on the same topic here and further on in the same thread and your admission that things were not better in the past?



> Jem
> 
> Why do you and Brendan insist on comparing Ireland of today with Ireland of the 80's? Compare Ireland of today with the rest of the world today. Your logic would claim that Ireland has a state of the art Health Service because compared to Healthcare 100 years ago it's great. It's a nonsense.
> 
> If your claims of no Rip-off can't stand up to scrutiny in the world we currently live in then going back 20 years to find somewhere worse to compare with really weakens your argument. Why not go back 100 years and the Ireland of today would be Utopia?
> 
> ...
> 
> Of course Ireland has a higher standard of Living than Ireland of the 1980's I have never ever even once claimed that Ireland was a better place at any time in it's past.



*



			People are constantly told they live in a low tax economy but when they total up the taxes they pay and then add the additional cost of living that's caused by the government compounding other taxes they question just how low is low.
		
Click to expand...

*


> Compared to the 80's taxes are low. Compared to our neighbours some of our taxes e.g. corporation tax is very low. This is the justification for calling it a low tax economy.


As I outlined here and in subsequent posts in the same thread I dispute the claim that we don't live in a low tax economy.


*



			People pay €10 for a fantasic meal in one country and then come home and pay €25 for a lower quality meal and understanably think it's the restaurant ripping them off.
		
Click to expand...


*I made two suggestions for where c. €10 meals can be had here in case that helps.

_soc _- thanks for clearing up my queries about your previous post.


----------



## daltonr

I think it's a fair point that the Irish traditionally haven't spoken up when faced with bad service and in many cases will actually leave a tip in a restaurant even when the service is poor.

I accept that service in restaurants won't be universally great, and I accept from time to time the tip will have to be witheld and in extreme cases an actual complaint will be required.  

But I wouldn't expect to have to deal with the Gardai on the same terms.   Surely it's fair that anyone who walks into a Garda station to report a crime will at a minimum have it recorded in Pulse.   Surely it's unacceptble that the person should have to force the Garda to record it, and/or follow up later to make sure it was.

I'd love to see crime statistics for the percentage of crimes reported but not recorded, and the figures for crimes recorded but not investigated.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> I'd love to see crime statistics for the percentage of crimes reported but not recorded, and the figures for crimes recorded but not investigated.


That's more like it - collate and analyse the data first and only then draw conclusions. You know it makes sense.


----------



## daltonr

*> As I outlined **here** and in subsequent posts **in the same thread** I dispute the *
*> claim that we don't live in a low tax economy.

**I accept you dispute it and I'll agree to differ if you will*
*>I made two suggestions for where c. €10 meals can be had **here** in case *
*>that helps.*

*I think your suggestions were for Lunch,  not evening meals.   But the info is much appreciated.  I'll do my best to check them out.  If you like sea-food or a really excellent homemade hamburger, and are ever in Florida let me know.*

*-Rd*


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> *> As I outlined **here** and in subsequent posts **in the same thread** I dispute the *
> *> claim that we don't live in a low tax economy.
> 
> **I accept you dispute it and I'll agree to differ if you will*


*
*I just thought that you might have some comment to make on the hard facts and figures that I presented in that post and the rest of that thread in relation to which I asked for somebody to point out where myself and my wife, as a not atypical couple (bar the lack of a car maybe), were being ripped off in relation to taxes, charges, expenditure etc. because we certainly can't see it. Nobody has managed to do this as far as I can see. I thought that you would be up to the challenge.
*



			>I made two suggestions for where c. €10 meals can be had
		
Click to expand...

*


> *here** in case *
> *>that helps.*
> 
> *I think your suggestions were for Lunch, not evening meals. But the info is much appreciated. I'll do my best to check them out. If you like sea-food or a really excellent homemade hamburger, and are ever in Florida let me know.*
> 
> *-Rd*


Yeah - lunch. There is also good value to be had in early bird dinner menus too. When I get a chance I may collate some good offers. I take it from the _Florida _invitation that you've decided on Canada or Oz?


----------



## daltonr

> I just thought that you might have some comment to make on the hard facts and figures that I presented in that post and the rest of that thread in relation to which I asked for somebody to point out where myself and my wife, as a not atypical couple (bar the lack of a car maybe), were being ripped off in relation to taxes, charges, expenditure etc. because we certainly can't see it. Nobody has managed to do this as far as I can see. I thought that you would be up to the challenge.


 
I do have some comments. To be honest they are so obvious that I'm sure you've already considered them. 

1. You bought your house 10 years ago and have benefited from 10 years of extraordinary house price growth. Well done. I'm sure you made sacrafices to get it, and you deserve every penny. Your proximity to the city would have further enhanced the effect. This would certainly buy a lot of contentment. 

2. You live close to the city and close to a wide array of public transport options. You don't live where the majority of new property is being built, and where young couples are finding themselves very under served by Public transport.

Literally last night I was discussing how one might go about getting from our house to the city center by Bus. And I live in Firhouse, not exactly a backwater. The bus route is unbelievably meandering and still involves a long walk in the city center. 

The person in question owns a yearly bus pass, but has found that their parking spot near a QBC is no longer an option. They have to now go searching for another back street to squeeze their car into because some park and rides along the QBC is too much to ask.

When Bus Pass time comes up for review they could consider the Luas. But the Luas from here will get you to the wrong side of the city and in a stroke of genius doesn't link with the other Luas.

3. When calculating how much tax you pay I'd add 10% of your gross to your tax bill to account for Employers PRSI. You actually pay this because your employer looks at how much you cost to employ. They'd pay you more if the government took less. 
I think both the employers and employees cut even goes in the same payment. I don't pay it so I'm not sure.

4. You are fortunate in that by your location you actually do have a realistic choice about whether or not you run a car. Others including myself do not have that luxury.
Some families find the only way to get by is with two cars.

In short you are not a typical couple. You are an extraordinarily lucky couple, although I'll admit you made your own luck in many respects. 

I think there is a big and growing chunk of the Irish Population who have it much worse than you. Remember when we used to hear about the high percentage of Irish people under the age of 25. Well. They've grown up and they want a house.

And when they try to buy a house they find the government giving tax breaks to people who already have houses, to buy more. Their tax that they pay is subsidising people who already have houses, to out bid them when they try to buy their first house.

-Rd


----------



## ashambles

According to [broken link removed], the shows proving a huge hit - 667000 viewers this week. They describe it as a "record number of viewers" possibly for that slot on a Monday - we can only guess since they don't tell us what the record is.


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> I do have some comments. To be honest they are so obvious that I'm sure you've already considered them.


Some of them were so obvious that I had considered them alright. However some of them are not so obvious because they are based on invalid assumptions and, in my opinion, an seeming obsession with identifying negative aspects (real or imagined) of a situation rather than taking a balanced view of the facts and, only then, arriving at a logical and reasonable conclusion.



> 1. You bought your house 10 years ago and have benefited from 10 years of extraordinary house price growth. Well done. I'm sure you made sacrafices to get it, and you deserve every penny.


These pennies are all on paper. I'm not saying that this is insignificant or irrelevant but, in practice, it means nothing to us on a day to day basis.



> Your proximity to the city would have further enhanced the effect. This would certainly buy a lot of contentment.


It has its advantages and disadvantages but ultimately the former outweight the latter in our opinion. Not everybody would agree.



> 2. You live close to the city and close to a wide array of public transport options. You don't live where the majority of new property is being built, and where young couples are finding themselves very under served by Public transport.


True. But there are plenty of couples in the same situation and age bracket as us in this area and all the way heading out towards more suburban areas in all directions so we are certainly not unique or specially privileged in this respect.



> Literally last night I was discussing how one might go about getting from our house to the city center by Bus. And I live in Firhouse, not exactly a backwater. The bus route is unbelievably meandering and still involves a long walk in the city center.


I just looked up _Dublin Bus _and the 49/49A seem to serve _Firhouse _and terminate on _Eden Quay _which is hardly a city centre backwater.



> The person in question owns a yearly bus pass, but has found that their parking spot near a QBC is no longer an option. They have to now go searching for another back street to squeeze their car into because some park and rides along the QBC is too much to ask.


Do they ever consider the impact that their parking might have on residents of the surrounding area and maybe consider alternative modes of transportation to their destination or to the bus (e.g. walk, bike, moped)? Suburban commuter parking in residential streets is one problem that we suffered from in our area for a long time (e.g. people ditching their cars in our area for the working day) and which caused major inconvenience for residents but thankfully the council have recently introduced pay and display in the area which has more or less eliminated this problem.



> When Bus Pass time comes up for review they could consider the Luas. But the Luas from here will get you to the wrong side of the city and in a stroke of genius doesn't link with the other Luas.


I presume by "wrong side of the city" you mean that this person is destined for some _Northside _destination and the _Luas _green line termination at _Stephen's Green _is not convenient for them? I have regularly managed 5-10 minute walks to make connections between different public transport facilities and I'm sure that others can manage it too.



> 3. When calculating how much tax you pay I'd add 10% of your gross to your tax bill to account for Employers PRSI. You actually pay this because your employer looks at how much you cost to employ. They'd pay you more if the government took less.


I don't accept that this is the case and I don't accept that this is a valid way to deal with the employer's _PRSI _liability. It's like saying that if 21% _VAT _was not charged on goods then they would simply be 21% dearer anyway. This is a fallacy in my opinion. Even if your analysis was true and the removal of employer _PRSI _drove wages up by 10% would you blame the inevitable consequential rise in prices and reduced level of _PRSI _linked welfare services on "rip-off Ireland" or on something else?



> I think both the employers and employees cut even goes in the same payment.


I don't know what you mean here.



> 4. You are fortunate in that by your location you actually do have a realistic choice about whether or not you run a car.


You are making assumptions here about our regular destinations by drawing this conclusion. Not all of our regular travel is facilitated by public transport and arrangements can sometimes be complex. In spite of this we choose not to own and run a car because on a cost/benefit anlysis basis we simply cannot justify it. That's the key issue - it is a choice and we live with it rather than blaming somebody or something else for our lack of this modern convenience that many people (mistakenly in my opinion) consider an essential requirement.



> In short you are not a typical couple. You are an extraordinarily lucky couple


I think that this is an extremely presumptuous conclusion to arrive at particularly since it is based on very incomplete information. As I have said above we are in no way unique in our immediate or wider vicinity so I don't accept that we are particularly atypical. Perhaps the problem here is that you are not willing to face the fact that many individuals and couples are in situations very similar to ourselves and that they are relatively happy with their lot and not prepared to buy into the whole "rip-off Ireland" mania (or is it depression?)?



> I think there is a big and growing chunk of the Irish Population who have it much worse than you. Remember when we used to hear about the high percentage of Irish people under the age of 25. Well. They've grown up and they want a house.
> 
> And when they try to buy a house they find the government giving tax breaks to people who already have houses, to buy more. Their tax that they pay is subsidising people who already have houses, to out bid them when they try to buy their first house.


I presume by tax breaks for people who already have houses you mean the ability of investors to write off 100% of mortgage interest and other allowable expenses against rental income? If this is the case they you also have to accept that these people will pay higher rates of stamp duty on the purchase and will pay _CGT _on the resale gain whereas owner occupiers in general, and first time buyers in particular, will generally pay lower _CGT_ (if any) and no _CGT _on any resale gain. And they get mortgage interest relief with first time buyers getting preferential rates compared to non _FTBs._ And don't forget that owner occupiers can earn up to €7,620 in rent a room rental totally free of tax and _PRSI_. Given these tax breaks for first time buyers and other owner occupiers where do you see the "rip-off"?


----------



## daltonr

> These pennies are all on paper. I'm not saying that this is insignificant or irrelevant but, in practice, it means nothing to us on a day to day basis.


 
Yes it does.  You are not one of the thousands trying to find a place to live today.  To the best of my knowledge you bought your house before local authorities started ramping up levies of 15K to 20K  on new houses.   I might be wrong in this.  Do you recall how much of a Levy you paid.   It sure takes the sheen off avoiding stamp duty.

The typical Dublin house buyer today is squeezed out to areas like Firhouse and Lucan.   Four out of five first time buyers buy outside Dublin even though 29% of the population live there.




> True. But there are plenty of couples in the same situation and age bracket as us in this area and all the way heading out towards more suburban areas in all directions so we are certainly not unique or specially privileged in this respect.


 
IF course you're not unique,  there are even people who are better off than you.   But you have to acknowledge that there are a lot of people struggling with issues that don't affect you.   If those people feel ripped off, and you don't share their problems, you're unlikely to share their feelings.



> I just looked up _Dublin Bus _and the 49/49A seem to serve _Firhouse _and terminate on _Eden Quay _which is hardly a city centre backwater.


 
This is the regular chant of the public transport lovers.   Who cares if you have a 20 minute walk in the rain at the other end.  Who cares if your bus meanders all over the county before getting you home.   

There is a bus that get's them reasonably close top their job and they can drive the last few miles to/from their house at the other end.   A simple set of Park and Rides would do wonders.   But no.   It's too much to ask.



> Do they ever consider the impact that their parking might have on residents of the surrounding area and maybe consider alternative modes of transportation to their destination or to the bus


 
I don't know, have you ever considered that Park and Ride might do more to get cars out of the city and out of residential areas than complaining about motorists attraction to their car.



> Suburban commuter parking in residential streets is one problem that we suffered from in our area for a long time (e.g. people ditching their cars in our area for the working day) and which caused major inconvenience for residents but thankfully the council have recently introduced pay and display in the area which has more or less eliminated this problem.


 
Motorists parking in residention areas is a symptom of poor last mile infrastructure.   We live in a country that is wet and dismal almost all year round.   Instead of complaining that motorists don't do the things you'd like why don't we just deal with the problem.   Again this is a case of you complaining about a problem you don't understand.  Since you are not a motorist and are not living in somewhere like Lucan or Firhouse.

Why is it too much to ask that we adopt international best practice and build some park and rides to go with the QBC's?




> I presume by "wrong side of the city" you mean that this person is destined for some _Northside _destination and the _Luas _green line termination at _Stephen's Green _is not convenient for them?


 
Actually the Firhouse Line arrives on the North side of the city,  and would mean a walk to bagott St.  A walk from Stephen's green to work might be an option if the Luas lines connected.    Yes,  a bus might be an option from the Northside to Bagott St.,   I don't know if there is an equivalent of the Annual Tax deductable Bus Ticket that would allow Luas and Bus use.   

But again your missing the point.   Individuals might be pursueded to go out of their way, take 2 or 3 transport connections each way,  walk the last half mile in the rain.   But the population as a whol will not.    The person we are discussing has a good way of getting to work.   They drive, park on the outskirts of the city and take public transport.   

They don't clog up the city center.   They are literally going half way to meet the public transport lobby.   But it isn't enough.   You want them to go the whole way.

If the public transport lobby would also come half way and allow for the very sensible way of getting to work of driving to a park and ride then the City Center would be a significantly better place.    We know this works,  it's not a theory.



> Even if your analysis was true and the removal of employer _PRSI _drove wages up by 10% would you blame the inevitable consequential rise in prices and reduced level of _PRSI _linked welfare services on "rip-off Ireland" or on something else?


 
If the 10% was removed there would probably be a combination of take home pay increasing (upward inflation preassure) and profit margins increasing (downward inflation pressure greater scope for competition).    

The bottom line is that it's 10% YOU are paying to the government.   If we are assesing whether you get value for the tax you pay then it should be included in the calculation.



> You are making assumptions here about our regular destinations by drawing this conclusion. Not all of our regular travel is facilitated by public transport and arrangements can sometimes be complex. In spite of this we choose not to own and run a car because on a cost/benefit anlysis basis we simply cannot justify it. That's the key issue - it is a choice and we live with it rather than blaming somebody or something else for our lack of this modern convenience that many people (mistakenly in my opinion) consider an essential requirement.


 
The fact that you don't have a car shows that you have a choice.   I'm sure there are some who have cars that could survive without them but choose not to.   But I'm equally sure that there are MANY MANY people including myself simply could not do without it.   And I have to say I am far from the most dependant on it, if I had a couple of kids to get to/from school etc I suspect my dependance would go up.



> I think that this is an extremely presumptuous conclusion to arrive at particularly since it is based on very incomplete information. As I have said above we are in no way unique in our immediate or wider vicinity so I don't accept that we are particularly atypical. Perhaps the problem here is that you are not willing to face the fact that many individuals and couples are in situations very similar to ourselves and that they are relatively happy with their lot and not prepared to buy into the whole "rip-off Ireland" mania (or is it depression?)?


 

If you are only willing to look to the cocoon of people living near you (availing of the same Public Transport Options),  same house price increases,   people who have the difficult job of getting a house out of the way then of course you'll see yourself as typical.

You problem is that you are confused why so many people feel ripped off if you don't.   The reason is that you are not in the same boat as the people who are talking about the Rip-Offs.   The very fact that people living near you don't feel ripped off proves the point rather than disprove it.

Congratulations it sounds like you snuck through before the gates started closing,  but it's silly to wonder why all the people outside the gates are upset when everyone you talk to inside the gates seems so happy.



> I presume by tax breaks for people who already have houses you mean the ability of investors to write off 100% of mortgage interest and other allowable expenses against rental income?


 
Actually I was referring more specifically to the impact of section 23 and similar on house prices particularly when applied in inappropriate areas.



> Given these tax breaks for first time buyers and other owner occupiers where do you see the "rip-off"?


 
FTB only holds if BOTH partners are FTB's.  This is no recognition of couples with one FTB.   There is a presumption that if either party every owned any portion of a house that they must have loads of cash and can afford a high tax.    The stamp duty rates have not reflected to astonishing increase in house prices.

Local authority Levies have been increased and are now as much or more than many would be paying in stamp duty.   Give the illusion that you are removing stamp duty for the most hard pressed.   Hit them with another tax instead.    Welcome to the No Frills economy.

-Rd


----------



## shnaek

*Insane conspiracy theory*

Back on the subject of Eddies show - isn't it interesting that there is a double episode of LOST on on Monday at the exact time Eddies show is on?


----------



## sherib

Next episode of Eddie's show isn't on until Monday week. Replaced by Rose of Tralee


----------



## daltonr

> Replaced by Rose of Tralee


 
Since 51.5% of people watching TV seem to like Eddie's show,  why don't they replace whatever is on the other channel.   No offence to Lost Fans.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> Since 51.5% of people watching TV seem to like Eddie's show, why don't they replace whatever is on the other channel. No offence to Lost Fans.


Why not ask them?


----------



## daltonr

I asked them a similar question a few years ago and didn't get a reply.
So I don't bother any more.

It was more of a rhetorical question.  Like,  Why does the other lane of traffic seem to move faster?   Or why can't Irish people make comedy until they move to England?

-Rd


----------



## elcato

Or 'Why do the Irish always knock Ireland' .....


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> I asked them a similar question a few years ago and didn't get a reply.


Did you write to them or email them? In general with large organisations I find that the former is more likely to elicit a response than the latter.


----------



## daltonr

> Did you write to them or email them? In general with large organisations I find that 
> the former is more likely to elicit a response than the latter.

I emailed them.   I agree,  if it had been a serious question I'd have written.

Since you asked me about this I've been thinking about the question I posed above and It actually has more merit than I originally thought.  Perhaps I will write to them after all.

For what it's worth the question I asked a year or two ago was why RTE don't have a Watchdog program like the BBC?   I suppose in a sense Eddie's program is as close as we've come to filling that gap, even if it's government rather than specific businesses treatment of consumers that's under the scope.

Elcato,

The answer to your question is that we're a restless bunch always striving for better.
at least that's the marketing spin on it.  The real reason is we're a bunch of miserable oul farts living on a cold wet rock on the edge of Europe.

-Rd


----------



## Marion

> The answer to your question is that we're a restless bunch always striving for better.
> at least that's the marketing spin on it.



Yes, but when people are very negative all the time it can be soul destroying for those who have to listen to the message and rather than winning converts, one tends to lose respect for the perhaps well-intentioned messenger. 

You know as well as I do (and you have accepted this) that there are very positive aspects to living in Ireland. Why do we have to rubbish everything by labeling the country as a –_Rip off Republic_ or a _No Frills Country?

_To be honest I find the terms are cheap – they suggest that we have a type of business ethic whose real aims are to steal, cheat and exploit people – aka consumers or employees. 

We are too intelligent a people for this nonsense!

Unlike you, I’m not a business person; I’m a public service employee. But my immediate family has been in business for over 137 years and I know that they have never exploited their employees and I believe their customers. Granted, there have been complaints from consumers, but they have always been informed that if they are not happy to pay the price, they can take their business to the bigger establishments. (I grew up listening to this) In general, the consumers stayed! 

Complaints about prices are not a Noughties phenomena!

I think the message that we should be giving to consumers is that if we were are not happy with the price of a service or good that we should:


a) Query it
b) Ask for a discount
c) Take our business elsewhere if we are not happy
d) Alter our lifestyle and cut out the product/service which we feel is too expensive
e) Cut back on our usage of the product if we cannot achieve any of the above


Sometimes the solution to a perceived problem is easily achievable.

Marion


----------



## ClubMan

At the risk of fuelling accusations of engaging in a _Moderator _love-in and a concerted collective effort to rebut the arguments of the "rip-off Ireland" merchants I have to say I consider this one of the most reasonable and mature posts on the issue to date. Having said that I'm not sure that this thread is capable of yielding much more in the way of constrctive discussion at this stage.


----------



## microsquid

I had to jump in on this one...
I've heard an awful lot about Mr. Hobbs (not least on this forum) and while I agree with some of the things he has to say [as reported by others] (and more power to him/them) I have me doubts. [I have tried to find Eddie on the RTE website for realmedia and no luck!]

I've lived in the Netherlands for the last 5 years so I've lived the 'high-tax, good public services' thingy and no it's not all it's cracked up to be.  The Dutch tax bands go something like this: 25%-40%-55%, and that 25% is charged from a lower cut off than the Irish one too. 

So what do you get for it?
Good roads? Yup, but here in Holland they're full with cars all the time, so no, you don't get where you want to go, faster.
Good rail? Well, yes, but that's full too. You can only have so many trains and carriages moving in the morning rush-hour so they're usually jammed and convoluted commutes are pretty normal - for those that will take them.  The majority take the car despite the fabulous public transport.
Buses are no better than in Ireland, although off-peak service is usually better(except on Saturdays)
Health care? well yes, everyone has access to great outpatient and dental plans.  If you earn above 25k you are legally obliged to pay into a private health insurance, but this is part of NLs 'ability to pay' principle and could be taken as fair enough.  Anyway because everyone has access they are VERY slow to treat.  I have a Brazilian friend diagnosed with cancer in Holland who had to wait SIX WEEKS for a biopsy of the tumor to find out if it was malignant after the preliminary diagnosis.  After this she would have had to wait another 3 weeks to 'discuss' the options available to her with a consultant, and still no treatment date in site.  She was lucky enough to be able to go back to Brazil for treatment (hardly a Mecca for medical procedures) and was treated immediately and well and is now recovering.
I have 3 other nightmare stories from work colleagues in A+E in the last 6 months, all from people who were willing to pay and wanting to pay but who couldn't get a look in because everything was booked - like Jem's example of the 6 week appointment in Liverpool.

Also driving: buying a car is marginally cheaper new, a LOT cheaper second hand (cheap German models) but running it is very expensive.  Petrol has been over 115c for a long time here, I think it's at 128c now.  Car tax is also expensive, and they're restructuring it to be based on miles travelled.
There is a park+ride here in Leiden, as far as I can see no-one uses it...

Home owning: Taxed yearly on the entire surface area of your home, including garden.  This ramps up to a higher rate once your mortgage is completely paid off.

Credit cards: No stealth tax, but a user fee of E40+ is usual. (Paid to the CC company, not the gov.)

On the plus side, you get brilliant creche facilites (still not for pennies), after school programs, programs for autistic children, good care of the elderly etc. etc. so it's not all bad by any means, just don't try to do anything in a hurry.

I shuttle back and forth quite a bit so I have the opportunity to compare other things: haircuts are cheaper in NL, but I get mine done at home because I can better explain what I want in English.  Drink is marginally cheaper in the pub, supermarket purchases are often quite a bit cheaper, and housing is cheaper these days (last two were the other way around when I first moved here).  

Mr. Squid and I rent a 50m2 apt. for about 400 a month, rent controlled.  I'm lucky to work within cycling distance so we save on commuting, and TG we've had no health problems, but if we moved or got a car things would dramatically change. So while we are very lucky we could be quite a bit worse off.

That said, we're moving back to Cork at the end of the month.  If I had had to take a job in Dublin we wouldn't have moved (Mr. Squid is Dutch and doesn't really mind) because I do think that the excessive commutes and house prices negatively impact on the quality of life in the area.
So we will have to get a car, because my house is in a suburb of a suburb (Rushbrooke) but we're determined to manage on one. More updates on adjustment to modern Ireland as they happen.

2 last points: 
I find eating out in Ireland uninspired and generally poor quality for what you pay. We (as a nation) have the best of ingredients available locally, and if I can cloddishly throw together something more tasty in my own kitchen, something has to be going wrong )

ClubMan mentioned VdP opposing the Groceries act: Big multiples WILL bring down the cost of goods, but they will do so on the town margins.  Until there is proper public transport going to these shopping centres (which almost never happens, whereever you are) poor people can't get there to make the savings, and the place they might be able to get to could be driven out of business. Simplistic, maybe, but please show me better.

IMVHO as a nation we have much to gain from better public transport rather than better roads taking people faster to new bottlenecks... or maybe better broadband so people can telecommute?

I think a bit of this (ROI) is the Irish propensity to pull the long face, so I have to give my 2 cents in my usual rambling fashion....

micro.


----------



## Teabag

5-18 to 4-18 ?
Daylight robbery.
Go on the Tribesmen !


----------



## daltonr

> Yes, but when people are very negative all the time it can be soul destroying for those who have to listen to the message and rather than winning converts, one tends to lose respect for the perhaps well-intentioned messenger.


 
I wasn't aware that anyone was oblighed to read this stuff.   And I have to say that the happy clappy brigade who tell us all that we should be changing our lifestyle to be more like them is just as annoying as anything I've written.

Of course someone living close to the city center surrounded by public transport options is going to be confused when people talk about the cost of running a car.  Of course they'll wonder why we don't all do what they do and get rid of our cars.

It is valid to point out that you pay tax and crimes go uninvestigated, and in some cases unrecorded.  People need to know this stuff so there not suckered by the Crime figures at the end of the year.

It is valid to point out that when the government claims to be concerned about Inflation, House Prices, etc, etc, etc,  that the government is the main cause of these things, so people don't make the mistake of voting for these people next time.

I wouldn't mind if the government said,  House Price Inflation and General Inflation are necessary,  it's part of our plan, but the policies will benefit us all long term.   I might disagree with their policies, but I'd respect their honesty.   It's the lying and hypocrisy that gets me.

It is valid to point out that we build QBC's but don't bother with Park and Rides and peopleare going to continue to drive into the city center, or park in residential areas.

It is valid to point out that high prices in Pubs, Supermarkets, Electronics stores, Restraurants, are high for a reason and it's not all explained by the fact that we have jobs and disposable income.

Finally and most importantly it is valid to constantly compare ourselves Good and Bad to other countries to see how we stack up.   Just as we're advices to compare pubs, restaurants etc.  It is valid to shop around for countries.   What are other countries doing better, or worse than us.   

What we get on here is that if you point out something better about another country you get .... "Yeah but they have the Death Penalty", or "Yeah but their literacy rate is 5% lower than ours".

This thread isn't going to get any further.   But there will be many many more rip-off threads on this and other boards.   I don't think I've started them all.  I may have started one once.   I'd love to get to the bottom of the feeling that's spreading throughout the country.   It's not the same as your mother complaining about the price of ham at the local butchers 15 yeras ago.   This is widespread, accross the board.

Anyway.   Enough of this.  You'll be delighted to know I'll miss next weeks show so I won't be able to participate in the debate.   Enjoy.

-Rd


----------



## Humpback

daltonr said:
			
		

> This thread isn't going to get any further.


 
And since Eddie isn't on tonight, lets just start another thread reviewing the Rose of Tralee instead.....


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> I wasn't aware that anyone was oblighed to read this stuff. And I have to say that the happy clappy brigade who tell us all that we should be changing our lifestyle to be more like them is just as annoying as anything I've written.


Who are the happy clappy brigade? Are you referring to people who point out flaws in the whole "rip-off _Ireland_" argument and rebut some of the more sweeping generalisations in this context? Obviously nobody forces you to read what they write either.



> Of course someone living close to the city center surrounded by public transport options is going to be confused when people talk about the cost of running a car. Of course they'll wonder why we don't all do what they do and get rid of our cars.


I presume that this is in reference to my earlier posts. Just to clarify I was *not *"confused" about the cost of running a car. I simply said that I was not au fait with all the costs involved since I don't run one myself. Not exactly the same thing. Neither did I suggest that somebody who needs or wants to run a car should get rid of it. Desisting from inaccurately representing the views and comments of others would improve the chances of discussions such as this actually being constructive.



> It is valid to point out that when the government claims to be concerned about Inflation, House Prices, etc, etc, etc, that the government is the main cause of these things, so people don't make the mistake of voting for these people next time.


I asked you before which political party or movement would do a better job that the current Government but I don't think that you got around to answering. Maybe you could comment now? By the way I have no party political affiliations or allegiances myself just in case there is any confusion about that.



> I wouldn't mind if the government said, House Price Inflation and General Inflation are necessary, it's part of our plan, but the policies will benefit us all long term. I might disagree with their policies, but I'd respect their honesty. It's the lying and hypocrisy that gets me.


Do you respect _Michael McDowell _for commenting [broken link removed] that he didn't agree with the whole idea of equality in society and that things should be run on meritocratic lines?



> It is valid to point out that we build QBC's but don't bother with Park and Rides and peopleare going to continue to drive into the city center, or park in residential areas.


Doesn't the _Luas _have _P&R_ facilities? Not sure about the _DART_ and other rail services. 



> It is valid to point out that high prices in Pubs, Supermarkets, Electronics stores, Restraurants, are high for a reason and it's not all explained by the fact that we have jobs and disposable income.


Yes - *some *pubs, supermarkets etc. have high prices. Some do not. Just this morning on the way into work I noticed that a local butcher was offering 10 chicken breasts for €7 and I bought 10 apples and 1KG of grapes in _Moore Street _for €1 each. Last week I bought six cans of _Bavaria_ lager for €7 (€1.17 each) and on Saturday I bought two cans of lager for €1.15 each and two cans of _Bass _for €1.05 each. All of these items would have cost a lot more from other sources. A few small examples but I could provide many more.



> Finally and most importantly it is valid to constantly compare ourselves Good and Bad to other countries to see how we stack up. Just as we're advices to compare pubs, restaurants etc. It is valid to shop around for countries. What are other countries doing better, or worse than us.


Yes - good *and *bad. Many of the rip-off _Ireland _merchants seem to focus only on the latter.



> What we get on here is that if you point out something better about another country you get .... "Yeah but they have the Death Penalty", or "Yeah but their literacy rate is 5% lower than ours".


Following on from my previous point I posted some details such as this simply to balance your seeming bias towards accentuating the negative things in Ireland compared to other countries.

And one other comment in responsed to one of your earlier posts:


> The typical Dublin house buyer today is squeezed out to areas like Firhouse and Lucan. Four out of five first time buyers buy outside Dublin even though 29% of the population live there.


So what? Do you think that everybody has an automatic and inalienable right to live where they want regardless of market forces and supply and demand constraints? If so, why? As for first time buyers being "squeezed" how do you explain the results of a recent [broken link removed] which found that 44% of first time buyers surveyed claimed that their mortgage repayments were _"no burden at all"_, 49% said that they were _"somewhat of a burden"_ and only 6.5% said that they were a _"heavy burden"_.

On a final, completely anecdotal and unrepresentative, note I was having a few pints with a friend on Friday night in _Dalymount _and he started moaning about "rip-off Ireland" when I stopped him in his tracks and countered some of his arguments with the result that he eventually had to agree that things were not as bad as he initially assumed. There *are indeed *problems and rip-offs but I don't think that they are as pervasive as some would like to make out and I think that attributing most or all problems that exist to a nebulous, but admittedly catchy, phrase as "rip-off Ireland" doesn't really help to identfy and focus on the real problems/rip-offs and set the scene for coming up with constructive solutions.


----------



## ubiquitous

> I wouldn't mind if the government said, House Price Inflation and General Inflation are necessary, it's part of our plan, but the policies will benefit us all long term....It is valid to point out that high prices in Pubs, Supermarkets, Electronics stores, restraurants, are high for a reason...I might disagree with their policies, but I'd respect their honesty. It's the lying and hypocrisy that gets me.



Do you include Fine Gael's ripoff campaign in this? After all...

1. Phil Hogan (their main ripoff campaigner) is the same Phil Hogan who joined forces with the RGData grocers a few years ago telling us to avoid shopping in Lidl and Aldi on the basis that they were not stocking Irish goods (needless to say he was proved wrong).

2. Fine Gael are the same Fine Gael who have acknowleged that they can only take power after the next election by joining a coalition with the pro-benchmarking and pro-union Labour Party. Hardly much scope for tax cuts there...

3. Fine Gael are the same Fine Gael who took control of many local authorities up and down the country after last summer's local elections, yet who have failed spectacularly to introduce any reductions whatsoever in local authority taxes and charges to business or the consumer in the intervening 14 months.

(Of course the real reason why no politician is honest or brave enough to point out that that the high prices in Pubs, Supermarkets, Electronics stores, restraurants, are high for a reason, is that they would be mercilessly mocked and abused for their honesty and bravery, much as Tourism Minister John O'Donoghue was apparently ridiculed on Eddie Hobbs' show for saying something along these lines in relation to prices in hotels and restaurants.) 

Another example of what you term as "lying and hypocrisy", once again from under the banner of "rip off ireland", is the Irish Ferries ad campaign urging consumers to "avoid ripoff ireland". This coming from a company with a dismal and long-standing record of screwing consumers (and their own staff to boot) and which to this day has refused totally to compete in its own market on the basis of lower prices. If the "rip off ireland" campaign (such as it is) has to depend on the likes of Fine Gael and Irish Ferries for results, then it is even more threadbare than I suspect.


----------



## daltonr

I dont think I've ever described Fine Gael as the solution.   I've said on a number of occasions that putting a Fine Gael/Labour Government in will have little or no effect other than perhaps avoiding the message to FF that what they've been doing is OK.

There is no Left Wing or Right Wing in Ireland anymore.   What we have is one big hot air baloon.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> I dont think I've ever described Fine Gael as the solution. I've said on a number of occasions that putting a Fine Gael/Labour Government in will have little or no effect other than perhaps avoiding the message to FF that what they've been doing is OK.
> 
> There is no Left Wing or Right Wing in Ireland anymore.   What we have is one big hot air baloon.


So there is no political solution to the alleged "rip-off Ireland" problems then or do any of the other parties/politicians have the answers? Seems like a very nihilistic viewpoint.


----------



## ubiquitous

The point is that FG (and Irish Ferries) are using the so called "rip-off Ireland" issue in order to fool people. This is especially ironic as they are both part of the problem! Btw, does anyone believe that Fianna Fail would do otherwise if they were in opposition?

The FG/Irish Ferries/AN Other ripoff hijack will continue to happen as long as the "rip-off Ireland" campaign (such as it is) continues to define itself in meaningless and misleading terms, eg simplistic comparisons of the price of (lightly taxed) alcohol in the UK versus (highly taxed) alcohol here. Consumer interests in this country will only prosper when its case is advocated in clear and concise terms on the basis of facts and not on the basis of irrelevancies.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

RD said:



> What we have is one big hot air baloon.


 
Actually, we have a few hot air balloons 

Brendan


----------



## daltonr

I'm no fan of Irish Ferries, but if they are saying that they'll take you out of the country and you can get cheaper goods e.g. Alcohol abroad then there's nothing incorrect in what they are saying.

If such a difference in price exists that for some people it's economical to go abroad to buy goods then I see no problem with any company meeting the demand to take people abroad.

E.g. I buy pretty much all my clothes abroad.   A few months ago I bought a web cam in the states for $30 (about €20-25).  Today the same Webcam costs about €120 in Ireland.

Now I'll accept all the arguments about Rent, and Rates, and VAT and excise duty, and the Cost of transporting goods to Ireland, and the relatively small size of the Irish Market, and the wages paid to staff, and on and on and on.   I'll accept all of that.
BUT if something costs 5-6 times more here, and I can pay for my flight or boat abroad with the savings I'll make, Then it's perfectly valid for the Irish consumer to stop wasting and just go and get the stuff cheaper abroad.

If a company be it Irish Ferries or Aer Lingus can capitalise on the legitimate desire to save money by going abroad then so be it.


As for Fine Gael, they are a political party desperately trying to avoid extinction.  They were almost wiped out in a general election and will say or do anything, latch on to any bandwagon if it'll help restore their relevance.

I don't know if it will work.   But having the second party in the country in such a weak position could be very handy.  It may just be that they decided to listen to the public.  Something that rarely happens.   It's a bit a pathetic that the electorate have to virtually wipe out a party before the leaders of the party will sit up and take notice, but hey.  We'll take what we can get.

I've agreed on this thread that the term Rip-Off Ireland has to vaguely defined.  For me it means that the Quality of Life does not justify the Cost of Living.  Cost of Living includes both tax and the Cost of Goods and services.

Put simply I'm not willing to spend 300K to 400K on a mediocre house, in an area services by mediocre public transport.   And pay through the nose to run a car.  And tolerate Gardai that won't even record crimes much less investigate them or prevent them.   And then spend the rest of my life paying two or three times as much for a meal in a restaurant or a trip to the cinema or clothes, or whatever as I would pay elsewhere.

That's all it means to me.  Insufficient Bang for your buck.

-Rd


----------



## ubiquitous

> I'm no fan of Irish Ferries, but if they are saying that they'll take you out of the country and you can get cheaper goods e.g. Alcohol abroad then there's nothing incorrect in what they are saying...If such a difference in price exists that for some people it's economical to go abroad to buy goods then I see no problem with any company meeting the demand to take people abroad.
> 
> ....BUT if something costs 5-6 times more here, and I can pay for my flight or boat abroad with the savings I'll make, Then it's perfectly valid for the Irish consumer to stop wasting and just go and get the stuff cheaper abroad.



I didn't know there were that many bargains in Holyhead to justify a charge of €99 *each way* for car & 1 passenger!



> As for Fine Gael... having the second party in the country in such a weak position could be very handy. It may just be that they decided to listen to the public.


Since when did they do this? As I pointed out above, they have controlled many local authorities for the past 14 months. Not one has slashed local taxes or charges to either business or consumers...


----------



## daltonr

>>It may just be that they decided to listen to the public. 

Sorry that was a type  it should have read

It may just be that they decide to listen to the public. 

But I agree with you,  the omens aren't good.
My feeling is that it's important to get FF out of government for a while, but I don't really see the alternative being much of an improvement.   The only advantage of getting FF out of government is that it hopefully sends the message that their way is not acceptable.   As long as FF kep getting elected the rest will imitate.  You can't blame them for that.



> So there is no political solution to the alleged "rip-off Ireland" problems then or do any of the other parties/politicians have the answers? Seems like a very nihilistic viewpoint.


 
There are things that can be done.  Very simple common sense ideas.   Even Rainyday agreed with all but two of them the last time I listed them.   But if there was a market for these ideas some party would propose them and get elected.   Clearly people like the way FF runs the country.   It would not surprise me one little bit if the SSIA trick buys them another term in office.

Sooo....  If the majority like the way the country is run, (or are willing to elect FF even though they dislike the way the country is run) then what's a boy to do?   

-Rd


----------



## RainyDay

daltonr said:
			
		

> It is valid to point out that we build QBC's but don't bother with Park and Rides and peopleare going to continue to drive into the city center, or park in residential areas.


They will only continue to drive into the city centre or park in residential areas if they refuse to accept the revolutionary option of walking to/from the bus stop. But then I suppose there will a rip-off on the price of umbrellas - right?


----------



## ClubMan

_daltonr _- I have just reviewed some of your posts in this thread and you seem to be doing such a good job of contradicting and undermining yourself that maybe the rest of us don't need to bother balancing or rebutting some of your more sweeping and generalised assertions any further. (Underlining is mine).

Above you said:


> My feeling is that it's important to get FF out of government for a while, but I don't really see the alternative being much of an improvement. The only advantage of getting FF out of government is that it hopefully sends the message that their way is not acceptable. As long as FF kep getting elected the rest will imitate. You can't blame them for that.


and yet earlier you said:


> For what it's worth I'll also campaign for some politicians that I like including one in FF.


The way things are going it looks like every seat will count next election so if you are serious about getting and keeping _FF _out then you really should give then absolutely no support. This is not a call to arms merely an observation.

Above you say:


> But if there was a market for these ideas some party would propose them and get elected. Clearly people like the way FF runs the country.


And yet earlier, in several places, you claimed nascent or existing widespread support for the idea that "rip-off Ireland" exists and objections to same:


> You and the Other Mods (in the main) are in a tiny minority of claiming that there is no Rip-Off Ireland. This seems to be because of a very narrow definition of what constitutes a rip-off (I.e. If the prices are in plain view you can't by definition be ripped off).
> 
> ...
> 
> Perhaps all is not lost. Perhaps after a few years of banging on about this people are starting to realise that they've been sold a pup.
> 
> ...
> 
> The Rip-Off brand seems to have been organically grown. The TV Show brilliantly exploited it. Fine Gael tried the same thing with their wesite. If they are as succesful as Eddie's show they'll have 51.5% of the seats in the next dail.


But most puzzling of all contradictions has to be this juxtaposition of quotes from yourself:


> It probably is worth saying that there is such diversity in terms of what people think Rip-Off Ireland means that it's almost a meaningless phrase.



and 


> But even you will have to admit that there's a very real sense (even if you don't share it) that something is wrong and that feeling is growing and being shared by more and more people. The phrase Rip-Off seems to encapsulate something for an awful lot of people, the phrase wouldn't have found such wide use if it didn't hit a nerve.


"Rip-off Ireland" is an almost meaningless phrase that encapsulates an awful lot for some people. I think that inanity just about sums up this thread at this stage.


----------



## daltonr

Clubman,

Thanks for revewing the posts.   It looks like yet again you're adding two and two and getting 22.  Remember your confusion about how something can have things going for it but not be great?????

I think perhaps you're trying to find inconsistency where there isn't any.


>My feeling is that it's important to get FF out of government for a while

>For what it's worth I'll also campaign for some politicians that I like >including one in FF.

The *ONE* FF TD I like is John McGuiness.  He has been more critical of the way things are going than most and if FF had a few more like him it might be a better party.  He was making saying these things long before FF got a bloody nose in the local elections, and being "humble" became fashionable.  He was the only government representative that I could see in the recent Prime Time programs admitting that there was a problem.

Given my record on here I hope I'm not screwing the guys reputation by saying I like him.

Ideally I'd like to see FF in opposition for a while and perhaps it would motivate them to start listening to some of the people who have raised concerns.  Perhaps in a future election there would be more like McGuinness and I would support all of them.

>Clearly people like the way FF runs the country.

I was being sarcastic.  It appears a sizable (but thankfully shrinking) chunck of people in Ireland vote like their daddies voted.  It's a much bigger problem in rural constituencies than Urban, but it has certainly helped bolster FF even when people are very unhappy.

I've sat in FF meetings where the entire room was furious, but when it came down to it they dutifully marched out and voted the same guys back in.

>It probably is worth saying that there is such diversity in terms of what >people think Rip-Off Ireland means that it's almost a meaningless phrase.

>But even you will have to admit that there's a very real sense (even if >you don't share it) that something is wrong and that feeling is growing >and being shared by more and more people. The phrase Rip-Off seems to >encapsulate something for an awful lot of people, the phrase wouldn't >have found such wide use if it didn't hit a nerve.

There may be huge diversity in the specific meaning individuals attach to the phrase but the fact that so many seem to agree on the Phrase Rip-Off (Meaning exploitation) is significant.  No contradiction here.

I'm happy to end this thread any time you like.

Rainyday.   Your post, is the same old naive nonsense that if you make a wish everyone else will fall into line.  The real world doesn't work like that.   If you meet people half way you'll suddenly find you start getting the kind of city you want.

Given that there are cities around the world having varying degrees of success with public transport and integrating private cars and public transport, wouldn't we be better learning from them rather than ploughing on with the attitude we know best and god dammit we'll prove it if it takes 100 years.

If you were building Dublin from the ground up you might be able to design it to be a city where a car is not essential, like London, or New York.
But you're not.  Live with it.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> Remember your confusion about how something can have things going for it but not be great?????


No.



> The *ONE* FF TD I like is John McGuiness. He has been more critical of the way things are going than most and if FF had a few more like him it might be a better party. He was making saying these things long before FF got a bloody nose in the local elections, and being "humble" became fashionable. He was the only government representative that I could see in the recent Prime Time programs admitting that there was a problem.


You consistently slate the current Government and stress the importance of getting them (or at least _FF_) out and yet admit that you will campaign on behalf of at least one of their representatives in an election that, judging by initial polls, predictions and proposed party strategies, should be extremely close. Rather than me getting 22 from 2 + 2 here your argument simply does not add up.



> I was being sarcastic. It appears a sizable (but thankfully shrinking) chunck of people in Ireland vote like their daddies voted. It's a much bigger problem in rural constituencies than Urban, but it has certainly helped bolster FF even when people are very unhappy.
> 
> I've sat in FF meetings where the entire room was furious, but when it came down to it they dutifully marched out and voted the same guys back in.


This is the first time that you have mentioned the issue of atavistic voting tendancies. You seem to shift the goalposts every time somebody rebuts your arguments or points out flaws in them. As I said before I have no party political allegiances but I do feel that one has to respect the outcome of any democratic election no matter what the result and no matter what the motivation (assumed or actual) of the voters. To dismiss most or many of those who voted for _FF _as simply voting as their daddies did is quite a patronising and superior position to take in my opinion.



> There may be huge diversity in the specific meaning individuals attach to the phrase but the fact that so many seem to agree on the Phrase Rip-Off (Meaning exploitation) is significant. No contradiction here.


So now you are saying that, rather than it being an almost meaningless phrase, that it has a diversity of specific meanings and it encapsulates something for an awful lot of people. I'm not sure what you mean by people "agreeing on a phrase" (especially one that is either almost meaningless or has a diversity of specific meanings) but if there's no contradiction here then at the very least there's a lot of obfuscation.


----------



## RainyDay

daltonr said:
			
		

> Rainyday.   Your post, is the same old naive nonsense that if you make a wish everyone else will fall into line.  The real world doesn't work like that.   If you meet people half way you'll suddenly find you start getting the kind of city you want.


Interesting choice of words in 'meet half way'. Personally, I'd have thought that provision of the bus service is actually meeting people about 95% of the way, but it looks like you want the public service to meet them 99% of the way. Doesn't seem like a great use of taxes to me.


----------



## daltonr

> Interesting choice of words in 'meet half way'. Personally, I'd have thought that provision of the bus service is actually meeting people about 95% of the way, but it looks like you want the public service to meet them 99% of the way. Doesn't seem like a great use of taxes to me.


 
There are too many cars in the city center.  If a person is willing to drive to the outskirts of the city and take a bus the rest of the way then that's meeting half way.    If you want people to leave their car at home and do the entire journey by bus or foot.  Then you're the one not willing to meet half way.

It doesn't matter whether you think they should or not.   People will go to work by the most comfortable and quickest means.  Traffic is a symptom not a disease.  The reason so many people use their car is that for them it provides the best overall means of getting from A to B.   Even I, car lover that I am sometimes use the Luas (Once actually, but I'll use it again tomorrow).    I Drive to it and I Park and Ride.   Because that mix provides the best overall means of getting from A to B.  (I have free parking right beside one of the Luas stops).

I gave the example of someone who can park in a residential area somewhere on the N11 and get a bus that drops them near their work (One car journey and one Bus Journey, where the buses pass regularly).   If that person had to take their local bus they would get dropped on the wrong side of the city by a bus that runs infrequently and meanders around the country side.

This person would much rather park in a safe Park and Ride than inpinge on residents and risk damage to their car.  But given the choice between a residential area and the local bus they'll take the route that offers the best overall traveling experience for them.

Their local bus takes longer to get them to and from work, It involves needlessly going into the city centre in order to get one of the crowded buses back out to where they actually work.

I did this briefly for a while when I moved to Dublin and lived in Balinteer.  I used to take the 48A into the city and then try to catch a bus to Ballsbridge.   Unless I went to the city center terminus I had no chance of getting on a bus leaving the city.

I switched to changing bus at Ranelagh and it improved things slightly.   But when I bought a car it added an extra hour to my day, I could start my journey at any time, I never got wet, and I travelled in comfort.   This was 10 years ago,  I don't know how a car would fare against a bus today on that route.   

A simple collection of park and rides surrounding the city would revolutionise the city centre.   Sitting and waiting for everyone else to change is NEVER going to work.

You might be able to sit one person down and talk them into going out of their way,  take longer to get to work, get wet occasionally.   But you will never convince an entire population.  And sitting waiting for other peopole to change and chastising them for not changing is futile.   Human nature is that people need incentives to do anything. 

A huge number of cars on the road indicates that there are a huge number of people for whom the car offers the best way of completing that leg of their journey.   Give them an incentive to make their car leg end on the outskirts of the city and you'll improve the city.    When that's done we can start talking about the leg between their house and the outskirts.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

Yesterday morning I was walking (it was a nice morning and I wasn't in a rush) the two miles away from town to visit my _GP _and, having nothing better to do while walking, I started observing cars that passed me heading into town via a route served by several buses. Of the scores (probably 100+) of cars that less than ten had more than one occupant with all the others carrying only a single person. Surely there could be some incentive for people to use private transport more efficiently? Or a disincentive from they using it so inefficiently?


----------



## ubiquitous

daltonr,

Never mind park and ride, that has nothing to do with so-called "rip off Ireland". Perhaps you might explain how you intend at the next election to campaign for FF and for a change of government?


----------



## daltonr

Yes.   In the states and Malaysia, and Australia and many other countries there are Lanes that can only be used by cars with two or more occupants.

In Washington DC it's very interesting.  People drive to Park and Rides and then Car Pool from there to the City Centre.   Some people obviously meet up with friends and colleques and Car Pool.   Others stand on the side of the road at the Car Pool and Motorists needing to fill up their car pull up. 

There's an ettiquette to it,  some people like to chat, some don't etc.  It's pretty funny actually.  

-Rd


----------



## balga

As I recall from my most recent return, the Park and Ride facility in Stirling, Perth, WA can accommodate far, far more vehicles than the equivalent facility in Malahide, Co Dublin.  In making infrastructural comparisons between the two cities, which I confess I am still doing after 10 years in Dublin, I always have to remind myself to include the legacy of history.  
I prefer the term expensive as opposed to rip-off.    For example, suburban shopping centre rents (per sq ft) are from 2.8 to 3 times those charged the small business operator in Australia.   Similarly, the price (leaving aside affordability) of the average family home is about 2.5 times that paid in suburban Perth.  I can only make valid (despite anecdotal) comparisons with Perth, although it was sobering to read over the weekend that the RBA  chairman  advised people not to buy a house in Sydney as the prices were too high.


----------



## daltonr

balga,

What would be your feeling on Quality of Life in the Two cities.   Is Dublin 2.5 times better?

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> What would be your feeling on Quality of Life in the Two cities.   Is Dublin 2.5 times better?


This is ridiculous! How can you have a quantitative comparative multiplier on a qualitative factor?


----------



## ubiquitous

Its ludicrous to attempt to link relative quality of life to relative house prices in any 2 locations. Is Dublin really twice or 2.5 times a better place to live in than Longford. Is Ailesbury Road 10 times a better place to live in than Blanchardstown. Or is it 20 times?

daltonr,

As I mentioned above, I am intrigued by your admission that you intend to campaign for FF and for a change of government, at the next election. Do you want to explain this apparent contradiction?


----------



## CCOVICH

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> As I mentioned above, I am intrigued by your admission that you intend to campaign for FF and for a change of government, at the next election. Do you want to explain this apparent contradiction?


 
In theory, if FF were to achieve an outright majority and could form a government without having to get back into bed with the PDs, then this would constitue a change in government?  (and of course if FF were in government on their own all our problems would be solved  )


----------



## Cahir

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> Is Dublin really twice or 2.5 times a better place to live in than Longford.


Bad example - the answer is most definitely yes!  10 months in living in Longford were the longest 10 months of my life!!


----------



## ClubMan

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> In theory, if FF were to achieve an outright majority and could form a government without having to get back into bed with the PDs, then this would constitue a change in government? (and of course if FF were in government on their own all our problems would be solved  )


Cunning analysis  - except that it doesn't explain _daltonr's _contradictory comments here about getting _FF _out of Government while also canvassing on behalf of one of their candidates whom "he likes".


----------



## daltonr

> This is ridiculous! How can you have a quantitative comparative multiplier on a qualitative factor?


 


> Is Dublin really twice or 2.5 times a better place to live in than Longford. Is Ailesbury Road 10 times a better place to live in than Blanchardstown. Or is it 20 times?



I don't see what's ridiculous about this at all.   Given the choice of paying 2.5 times as much to live in one place than another there must be some reason why somone would choose to do so.    For some it will be a forced decision based on family issues or whatever.   For others it will simply be that there are things about one place they like that justify the higher cost of living.

I was just curious if someone who had experience of both felt that Dublin warranted the higher prices.   In other words is it worth it.   It's subjective of course, but the subjective opinion of someone who has lived in both places is of interest to me.

I've made the subjective judgement that it's not worth 300K to 400K for the kind of house and the kind of local ameneties, and infrastructure, that dublin provides when you can have better for less elsewhere.

The Poster from Perth might have had a contrary view that indeed Dublin did justify the higher costs than Perth.



> Cunning analysis  - except that it doesn't explain _daltonr's _contradictory comments [broken link removed] about getting _FF _out of Government while also canvassing on behalf of one of their candidates whom "he likes".


 
I've already explained this non-contradiction Here:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=106456&postcount=212

If you choose to ignore my explaination then I can't really help you.

I'd like to see FF out of governement.  It would be a step in the right direction.   But more importantly I'd like to see good TD's in the Dail.   I don't think FG or Labour will be sufficient better that it's FF out at ALL COSTS.

As I've said, FF out with the better FF TD's keeping their seats would be the best result.   I'll be voting for the FG candidate in my constituency as well as Mr McGuinness.   In which order I haven't decided yet.   He will certainly be the ONLY FF condidate getting a vote from me and it may be a transfer from FG or Labour, or they may get a transfer from him.   Who knows?  I'll probably throw a vote to an independant if they impress me. 

If my previous voting patterns are repeated I'll start by giving a vote to the individuals I like, followed by the parties I dislike least (FG, Labour, Green).   And I won't vote at all for the remainder (SF and remaining FF condidates).

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

If somebody says that the quality of life in one place is _X _times better than in another place then what does that really mean? Nothing other than gut feeling as far as I can see.

Your earlier explanation of how you want to get _FF _out but will still canvass on behalf of and vote for one of their candidates simply does not add up and this is why people continue to question you on it. I guess that there simple is no reasonable explanation so?



> I'd like to see FF out of governement. It would be a step in the right direction. But more importantly I'd like to see good TD's in the Dail. I don't think FG or Labour will be sufficient better that it's FF out at ALL COSTS.


Moving the goalposts yet again, eh?


----------



## balga

I really don't know,  QoL is very subjective, but your question, as I understand it, is interesting.  I hesitate to go further as this is rather off topic -  I simply wanted to indicate that perhaps rip-off and expensive are not the same things.  For instance, Western Australia in recent years has enjoyed remarkable royalty windfalls from the exploitation of iron ore and natural gas reserves. This income enables solid infrastructural investment and decreases the degree to which the central authority must rely on (all varieties of) taxation.


----------



## ClubMan

_balga _- do many _Australians _moan about high prices and/or rip-offs in your experience?


----------



## ubiquitous

I think I get the message. The Rip off Ireland brigade seems to be comprised of...

1. FF voters who will continue to vote for their favourite FF candidate next time around.

2. Fine Gael, the value for money and pro-consumer party that slated the arrival of Lidl and Aldi to our shores and haven't cut a single local tax or levy in 14 months.

3. Companies such as Irish Ferries who have ripped off the public for decades but who claim in their adverts that even at €99 each way to Holyhead they are still cheaper to get to Britain than Ryanair or other airlines (Go figure)

4. RTE, who had nothing to do with the 50% increase in the TV licence fee increase a couple of years ago...

Bizarre, eh???


----------



## soc

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Doesn't the Luas have P&R facilities?



Tallaght does not have any such facilities.

-soc


----------



## daltonr

> Moving the goalposts yet again, eh?


 
For goodness sake clubman will you get over it. There hasn't been movement of goal posts or anything else. This is exactly what I was saying earlier on this thread, and what I've consistently said for as long as I've been posting on AAM.



> Your earlier explanation of how you want to get _FF _out but will still canvass on behalf of and vote for one of their candidates simply does not add up and this is why people continue to question you on it. I guess that there simple is no reasonable explanation so?


 
And there was me thinking PR allowed for such strategies.
Tell you what If FF get kicked out of government, but John McGuinness keeps his seat.   Then we'll agree I had a right to vote any way I pleased. 
If John McGuinness get's elected and FF Stay in by holding 1 seat.  Then I'll agree you were right.

Ubiquitous, I'm not sure I understand the point you're making in your post.
But since you have used the phrase "ripped off the public for decades" perhaps you could elaborate on how in your opinion that was the case, since as far as I can see it's the first time a mod has acknowledged the valididy of claiming there was any sort of Rip-off in Ireland.

And please don't anyone claim I'm defending Irish Ferries. I'm not. Given the amount of misinterpretation going on I'd hate for that accusation to be leveled at me. IF this is the same company that rebadged it ship to Barbados recently then I'm certainly no fan.

-Rd


----------



## soc

RainyDay said:
			
		

> They will only continue to drive into the city centre or park in residential areas if they refuse to accept the revolutionary option of walking to/from the bus stop.



Rainyday that is a very broad generalisation of those who have to drive to meet the infrastructure we call 'public transport'.  Not all of us live within walking distance of an adequate bus service.


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> For goodness sake clubman will you get over it. There hasn't been movement of goal posts or anything else. This is exactly what I was saying earlier on this thread, and what I've consistently said for as long as I've been posting on AAM.


You keep adding qualifiers and caveats to your explanations as to why you will support a representative of a party whom you think need to be removed from Government so it does seem like you are shifting the goalposts to me. There is nothing for me to get over other than your ability to contradict yourself without being able to accept that you are doing so.



> And there was me thinking PR allowed for such strategies.


Even with _PR _is makes no sense to give even a low preference vote to somebody that you do not support. Your ongoing vilification of the current Government and, in particular, _FF_, and attribution of most or all of the blame for the causes/symptoms of so called "rip-off Ireland" to them simply does not make any sense in the context of your stated intention to canvass on behalf of and vote for one of their representatives. This is not a misprepresentation of your comments by the way.


----------



## daltonr

> to canvass on behalf of and vote for one of their representatives. This is not a misprepresentation of your comments by the way.


 
I never said I'd join his canvassing team.   I will CAMPAIGN for him, i.e. in the run up to the election I'll certainly offer my services to help out.   And I'll ask people I know to give him a vote.    I certainly won't ask people to continue their preference for other FF candidates and I'm sure Mr McGuinness would be asking them to do.

FF will only be out of government for one term regardless.  FG Labour are at best a protest government.   I'd like to think that by supporting the good candidates in a bad party that by the tiem FF regains power they may have made some slight move in the direction advocated by a few in their ranks.

If you don't agree with my analysis that's fine.  If FF get kicked out of government, but one or two of their members that I'd consider good manage to hold their seats, that will be the best election result I could hope for.   And I think we all have the right to vote for the election result we'd like.



> You keep adding qualifiers and caveats to your explanations


 
I'm sorry.  In future when I offer an opinion I'll provide a few pages of background to ensure that every possible detail relating to the opinion is fully thrashed out so there are no suprises for you.

-Rd


----------



## balga

Perhaps, Clubman, once an economy reaches a certain level, this behaviour becomes (somewhat reasonably) commonplace.   Let me explain.  I was at college in Dublin in 1988 and, as I recall, complained bitterly about the price of nearly everything, lamenting how people could live here.  My only solace was to play football in places such as Ballybofey, Abbeycarton,  the Carlisle Grounds and United Park.  As I recall,  programmes such as ROI did not exist.   Yet such programmes were (and, I believe remain) regularly scheduled  on Australian TV.  
So, Clubman, some Australians do moan about prices, some (perhaps a lot) moan about rip offs, but programmes like ROI have been common place for a long time. 
I believe the programme has had good ratings. I hope that the type of consumer response it evokes continues, because I believe that there are several other areas where the consumer is ill-served.   I will probably watch ROI3.


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> I never said I'd join his canvassing team. I will CAMPAIGN for him, i.e. in the run up to the election I'll certainly offer my services to help out. And I'll ask people I know to give him a vote. I certainly won't ask people to continue their preference for other FF candidates and I'm sure Mr McGuinness would be asking them to do.


For somebody who regularly accuses me of engaging in semantics you're doing a good job of doing the same thing in attempting to draw some subtle distinction between "campaigning on behalf of" and "campaigning for" and not joining a team but offering your services...


> FF will only be out of government for one term regardless. FG Labour are at best a protest government. I'd like to think that by supporting the good candidates in a bad party that by the tiem FF regains power they may have made some slight move in the direction advocated by a few in their ranks.
> 
> If you don't agree with my analysis that's fine. If FF get kicked out of government, but one or two of their members that I'd consider good manage to hold their seats, that will be the best election result I could hope for. And I think we all have the right to vote for the election result we'd like.


I don't agree with your analysis because it is still the case that none of this in any way makes sense of campaigning and voting for a member of a party whom you have stated need to be removed from Government. 


> I'm sorry. In future when I offer an opinion I'll provide a few pages of background to ensure that every possible detail relating to the opinion is fully thrashed out so there are no suprises for you.


No - just making a logical, consistent and non contradictory argument will do rather than trying to cover your tracks with incremental caveats and disclaimers when you have been found out making contradictory claims.


----------



## ubiquitous

> But since you have used the phrase "ripped off the public for decades" perhaps you could elaborate on how in your opinion that was the case, since as far as I can see it's the first time a mod has acknowledged the valididy of claiming there was any sort of Rip-off in Ireland.



Ah come on. Just because one believes that the term "Rip Off Ireland" is unjustified doesn't mean that one is so naive or stupid to believe that every business operator in the country is honest and acts altruistically in all their business transactions. Do you believe, hand on heart, that there is no profiteering, overcharging or dishonesty in the UK, in the US or in Malaysia?


----------



## daltonr

I haven't said anything like that.   I just asked you to elaborate on an example of a Rip-Off that you believed genuinely was a Rip-Off.   So that at least we can agree on what constitutes a Rip-Off.

So far whenever anyone dares to suggest that something is a Rip-Off they are told it isn't.   Let me give you the standard response....

Did Irish Ferries make the consumer aware of the charges before the person travelled with them?   If yes then it's not a Rip-Off.   That's the kind of response that annoys people and it's very common here.    

If you have an example of something that's a Rip-Off of the Consumer then let's hear about it so that when future Rip-Offs are discussed this one can be the benchmark.

E.g. I think PC World selling a Web Cam for €120 that I can buy in the states for less than $30 is a Rip-Off.    But is it?    PC World have the prices plainly visible.   No one is forcing anyone to buy it.     I'd claim that many of PC World's customers are at a disadvantage of having no clue how much such a device is worth and as such are being Ripped Off.   But perhaps I'm wrong.

I'm just curious what it is about the Irish Ferries Rip-Off that's different,  so that in future I'll know and I can use the term without getting slapped down by the various Mods for using it incorrectly.

-Rd


----------



## daltonr

> For somebody who regularly accuses me of engaging in semantics you're doing a good job of doing the same thing in attempting to draw some subtle distinction between "campaigning on behalf of" and "campaigning for" and not joining a team but offering your services...


 
The word Canvass was introduced by you and it has a very specific meaning. I will not be going door to door canvassing for anyone. I will be asking people I know to vote for him. Happy to clear this up for you.



> I don't agree with your analysis because it is still the case that none of this in any way makes sense of campaigning and voting for a member of a party whom you have stated need to be removed from Government.


 
If you can't get your head around that then OK. It makes perfect sense to me to encourage and support those in FF who want to change the Party. Rather than engage in the pointless cycle of kicking FF out for one term and then having them come back the same or worse than they ever were.  I'd like them to leave government seeing that those preaching change kept their seats.

Thanks for your advice that I'm wasting my time. 

-Rd


----------



## ubiquitous

Well seeing as you asked, Irish Ferries charged me the guts of €10 for a tea and sandwich the last time I travelled with them. I counted this as a ripoff. The combined stated price of the tea and sandwich was about €6 or €7, not cheap in the first instance. Because I had no Euro on me, and because they wouldn't (quite conveniently, from their point of view) accept credit cards, I had to pay them with a £20 Sterling note. They had no sterling prices displayed (despite the fact that the ferry was travelling from Wales to Ireland), and I had no choice but to accept the terrible exchange rate which they were offering. I reckon I was done in this way by at least a further €3.

Bear in mind that this has happened and will happen to at least a large percentage of tourists that use Irish Ferries to visit our country.

Btw, if you're tired of "getting slapped down by the various Mods", ie others not agreeing with your repetitive rants, then maybe its time you looked for another site to bore...


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> The word Canvass was introduced by you and it has a very specific meaning. I will not be going door to door canvassing for anyone. I will be asking people I know to vote for him. Happy to clear this up for you.


Mea maxima cupla - I mistakenly used the work "canvass" when you had originally used the word "campaign". On the other hand many would argue that campaigning on behalf of, offering one's services to and asking others to vote for a particular candidate (while making the clear distinction that one was not officially part of the candidate's election team) would be synonymous with canvassing. Either way, the main thrust of my argument stands - that it makes no absolutely no sense to try and unseat a party from Government while also campaigning on behalf of of of their candidates.


> If you can't get your head around that then OK. It makes perfect sense to me to encourage and support those in FF who want to change the Party. Rather than engage in the pointless cycle of kicking FF out for one term and then having them come back the same or worse than they ever were. I'd like them to leave government seeing that those preaching change kept their seats.


As above.


> Thanks for your advice that I'm wasting my time.


I never said or insinuated that. What was it you said earlier about people misrepresenting the views and comments of others?


----------



## daltonr

> that it makes no absolutely no sense to try and unseat a party from Government while also campaigning on behalf of of of their candidates.


 


> I never said or insinuated that


 
Mea maxima cupla  I mistakenly assumed that doing something that makes absolutely no sense was a waste of time.

We're counting angels on the head of a needle here.   This thread stopped having a point about 6 pages ago.   I'm happy to end it here and we can all go and vote for whoever we like.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> Mea maxima cupla I mistakenly assumed that doing something that makes absolutely no sense was a waste of time.


The full quote was in reference to your attempted rationalisations as to why it made sense to support a candidate of a party whom you were trying to unseat from Government.


> I don't agree with your analysis because it is still the case that none of this in any way makes sense of campaigning and voting for a member of a party whom you have stated need to be removed from Government.


So it was your analysis that did not make sense. You complained earlier about misrepresentation by some people of others' views and yet you are doing exactly the same thing yourself here.


> We're counting angels on the head of a needle here. This thread stopped having a point about 6 pages ago. I'm happy to end it here and we can all go and vote for whoever we like.


Nobody is forcing you to contribute to it. If you honestly think that it makes sense to campaign on behalf of and vote for a candidate of a party whom you are trying to unseat from Government and no logical explanation of why this is not the case can disabuse you of that notion then so be it.

_In case of any confusion I initally posted on reply but then replaced it with this modified version._


----------



## daltonr

> So it was your analysis that did not make sense. You complained earlier about misrepresentation by some people of others' views and yet you are doing exactly the same thing yourself here.


 
This is really getting tiresome.   I never said anything about anyone misrepresenting anything, read my post again, don't just link to it.   I said people were misinterpreting what was being said.   Thanks for this stunning proof of that point.

Incidently you got the wrong quote when you quoted yourself.   I quoted you verbatim when you said *it makes no absolutely no sense*



> it makes no absolutely no sense to try and unseat a party from Government while also campaigning on behalf of of of their candidates.



Like I said.   Tiresome.  This is my last post.   Post away to your hearts content.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan

daltonr said:
			
		

> This is my last post.


Ever or just in this thread?


----------



## daltonr

> Ever or just in this thread?


 
This thread.   I'm not going to pull a Clubman and dissapear for 6 months because someone said something I didn't like.  

See here for non-ripoff related post where I actually agree with Clubman on something.
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=106741&postcount=17

-Rd


----------



## ubiquitous

Did Eddie attack the Consumers Association (of which he is a leading member) for their policy opposing reform of the Groceries Order?

From [broken link removed]


> Michael Kilcoyne, Chairperson of the
> Consumers’ Association of Ireland recently
> refuted suggestions that the Association was
> reversing its stance on the Groceries Order’s
> ban on below cost selling. The Consumer
> Association has always and continues to
> favour the retention of the ban.
> According to Kilcoyne, although the association
> regularly reviews its position and takes
> advice on ‘that and all of the other elements
> of the Groceries Order’, to date ‘that review
> has brought no change of policy and any
> suggestion to the contrary is presumptuous’.
> Kilcoyne’s comments come in the wake of
> recent suggestions from within the
> Consumers’ Association that it was likely to
> reverse its policy of support for the ban on
> below-cost selling in supermarkets.




From 



> Consumers Authority chairman Michael Kilcoyne says there is no evidence that removing the Groceries Order would reduce prices.
> "The Groceries Order covers only 50 of the 5000 items in supermarkets. The multiples would use below cost selling to swallow-up the independent operators and this would reduce competition and lead to higher prices," Kilcoyne says. "There is little point in paying less this month to pay more the following month."




Not much point in consumers sending nappies in protest to a Minister when Eddie's own outfit are telling the Minister to do nothing!


----------



## Lemurz

From "Morning Ireland" today............

28k - [broken link removed]


----------



## ClubMan

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> Did Eddie attack the Consumers Association (of which he is a leading member) for their policy opposing reform of the Groceries Order?
> 
> From [broken link removed]
> 
> 
> 
> From
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not much point in consumers sending nappies in protest to a Minister when Eddie's own outfit are telling the Minister to do nothing!


I'm amazed that this issue has not garnered as much attention and generated as much comment as _EH's TV _programme.


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## daltonr

> I'm amazed that this issue has not garnered as much attention and generated as much comment as _EH's TV _programme.[./Quote]
> 
> Because noone disagrees with it.  Eddie's view is very clear the Groceries Order should go.  Do we have anything more recent that 2003/2004 to know the official view of the Consumers Association?   Has their view changed?   Has Eddie's view changed.   I think I recall him saying that there was a time when the Order made sense but it no longer does.
> 
> -Rd


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