# Accountant - how to generate new business



## trg (1 Nov 2011)

Hi Folks,

Been mulling this over a while now and am struggling to figure out a way to generate business so i said i'd come online here to seek opinion. 

Basically I am recently installed accountant in a company that is rapidly going down the tubes, making unsustainable losses and the directors do not agree on anything. So aside from last in - first out scenario there is simply no future here. 

I have a real desire to work for myself, I currently have about 10 private small clients but they are generating around €5000 p.a. only, which is fine when there is only a few evenings and weekends but its a very small base to start from. 

I reckon I would need to do generate €30k in year one and am at a loss as to how to go about getting it and also as to what is ethically acceptable. 


I have been thinking along the lines of writing a letter to SME's in the local area
Just chatting the people in SME's that I know around
Has anyone any experience in online advertising for such a service? I would imagine there would not be much out of it as word of mouth is the key I feel
My opportunities to get myself out into the market are scarce because of the full-time job. I am in a catch 22 as I would love to leave but I cant afford to give a few months with no income or immediate hopes of income. 


Has anyone any ideas? I appreciate many of you are accountants yourself and may not feel compelled to pass on info to a potential competitor but any words of wisdom or advise would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Nov 2011)

You should probably try to get a part-time job somewhere which would give you a basic income while you develop your business. 

Are you a qualified accountant?

Do you have Professional Indemnity insurance? It just surprises me that doing €5,000 work would be worth it because of the insurance costs involved.But I suppose you have to start somewhere.

Brendan


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## NorfBank (1 Nov 2011)

It worked for this guy.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=159129


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## Purple (1 Nov 2011)

Hi trg, my wife is a GP and she’s moved accountant 3 times in 7 years because of the bad level of service she receives. Despite running TAS, using Laser for almost all transactions and having a receptionist that’s trained as an accountancy technician she still can’t get her accountant(s) to do her end of year returns competently. Each year we go over the final accounts that the accountant prepares before he/she files them and each year there are omissions, mistakes in addition and/or subtraction and other mistakes. This can result in underpayment or overpayment. Therefore my advice is find a niche area, study up on it and offer a quality service where you proactively look after the accounts and business interests of your clients. From what I’ve learned over the last few years doctors know next to nothing about how to run a business so someone who can advise them on financial matters in general as well as submitting their tax return would be a in demand. Knowing a little bit about employment law would also help, nothing major; just an afternoon on the Citizens Advice website would do.
I presume that doctors are not unique in having this gap in their knowledge so there may be other sectors that you could look at.

My general advice is to be proactive in how you serve your clients. It sounds like you are trying to do that where you are now. Why not do it for people who are viable and who will listen? 
My experience of accountants is not good. I find that they do the bare minimum and get very defensive when their mistakes are pointed out. Stand out from the general mediocrity that seems to be the norm in your profession.


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> My experience of accountants is not good. I find that they do the bare minimum and get very defensive when their mistakes are pointed out. Stand out from the general mediocrity that seems to be the norm in your profession.



Indeed, the same description is often applied to GPs


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## Purple (1 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Indeed, the same description is often applied to GPs



I agree completely.
I always found it strange that people thanked their doctor for doing their job but doctors rarely thanked their customers for their business.

Sectors which have enjoyed excessive demand and/or limited supply have been able to conduct their affairs in an inefficient manner. Customer service has been bad and the customers business has not been appreciated. This is still the case with doctors though I suspect that with the massive over-supply in the legal and accountancy sectors this is changing but old habits die hard.


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

To the OP:

You will have to make a decision as to whether you want to work in  practice or in industry. You won't be able to do the two at the same  time, the skillsets and demands on your concentration and energy are  simply too much.

You say that you can't afford to go a few months with no income. In that respect, setting up a practice on your own is going to be a problem as you will not earn a whole lot in your first year or two, no matter how hard you work. In that respect, you might be better off getting a job in a practice and perhaps introducing your own clients to that practice as part of the deal.

If you are a member of an Institute, do not under any circumstances offer paid services to your own clients unless you have a practising cert and professional indemnity insurance. If the Institute discovers you to be doing so, you would be liable to serious disciplinary action which may impact on your career.


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

NorfBank said:


> It worked for this guy.
> 
> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=159129




I wouldn't pay much heed to that thread. The poster who opened that thread (and apparently received a great deal on his accountancy fees) is himself a practising accountant


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## Brendan Burgess (1 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Indeed, the same description is often applied to GPs



Good one!


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> she still can’t get her accountant(s) to do her end of year returns competently. Each year we go over the final accounts that the accountant prepares before he/she files them and each year there are omissions, mistakes in addition and/or subtraction and other mistakes.



I find this very peculiar, particularly the mention of addition and subtraction errors. I thought that this sort of thing had gone out with the flood. Don't tell me she is using accountants who prepare calculations and returns manually? 



Purple said:


> Therefore my  advice is find a niche area, study up on it and offer a quality service  where you proactively look after the accounts and business interests of  your clients. From what I’ve learned over the last few years doctors  know next to nothing about how to run a business so someone who can  advise them on financial matters in general as well as submitting their  tax return would be a in demand. Knowing a little bit about employment  law would also help, nothing major; just an afternoon on the Citizens  Advice website would do.



You should expect your accountant to look after your accounts  and your tax affairs and hopefully be proactive in both regards.

However I would suggest that it is a major mistake to expect an accountant to "advise on financial matters in general". If you need investment advice, go to a specialist investment advisor, rather than an accountant whose core expertise lies elsewhere. Similarly, if you need employment law advice go to a solicitor, rather than depending on someone who has no expertise in that area apart from an afternoon spent reading a website.


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## PaddyBloggit (1 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> I wouldn't pay much heed to that thread. The poster who opened that thread (and apparently received a great deal on his accountancy fees) is himself a practising accountant



How do you figure that?

If he is, what was the point of his (possibly mis-leading) thread? and his final post about having a new accountant?


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> Sectors which have enjoyed excessive demand and/or limited supply have been able to conduct their affairs in an inefficient manner. Customer service has been bad and the customers business has not been appreciated. This is still the case with doctors though I suspect that with the massive over-supply in the legal and accountancy sectors this is changing but old habits die hard.



There is no 'excessive demand' nor 'limited supply' in the accountancy practice industry. The country is full of fully-fledged practising accountants (qualified and not qualified) practically in every village in the country. Add to that the large numbers of book-keepers also offering accounts and tax return services, and the considerable numbers of others (including the OP) who do similar work on a part-time or nixer basis. Unlike the legal or medical sectors, literally anyone can open an accountancy or tax practice in this country.

Many accountants remain inefficient and hourly billing policies mean that some practices are disincentivised from becoming efficient. However, clients of technology-aware practices have benefitted from improved services and more accurate accounts and returns in recent years.

You mention that your wife changed her accountant three times in the past 7 years. The fact that she can do so would hardly suggest that the sector is either closed or non-competitive.


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

PaddyBloggit said:


> How do you figure that?
> 
> If he is, what was the point of his (possibly mis-leading) thread? and his final post about having a new accountant?



Read their earlier posts on other threads.

Its not for me to second-guess their comments on that thread.


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## Purple (1 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> I find this very peculiar, particularly the mention of addition and subtraction errors. I thought that this sort of thing had gone out with the flood. Don't tell me she is using accountants who prepare calculations and returns manually?


 I have no idea. It was real school-boy stuff though.





T McGibney said:


> You should expect your accountant to look after your accounts  and your tax affairs and hopefully be proactive in both regards.


 I agree but that's not what I've seen.



T McGibney said:


> However I would suggest that it is a major mistake to expect an accountant to "advise on financial matters in general". If you need investment advice, go to a specialist investment advisor, rather than an accountant whose core expertise lies elsewhere. Similarly, if you need employment law advice go to a solicitor, rather than depending on someone who has no expertise in that area apart from an afternoon spent reading a website.



The advice I would expect is "You need to get "X" issue sorted out. I suggest you talk to an investment advisor/solicitor etc" with a recommendation as to who you should talk to. That’s what I mean about being proactive.


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> The advice I would expect is "You need to get "X" issue sorted out. I suggest you talk to an investment advisor/solicitor etc" with a recommendation as to who you should talk to. That’s what I mean about being proactive.



Fair enough, most accountants do this as a matter of course, but earlier you said "Knowing a little bit about employment law would also help, nothing  major; just an afternoon on the Citizens Advice website would do". This seemed to imply the exact opposite.


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## Purple (1 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Fair enough, most accountants do this as a matter of course, but earlier you said "Knowing a little bit about employment law would also help, nothing  major; just an afternoon on the Citizens Advice website would do". This seemed to imply the exact opposite.


 OK, I should have been clearer. Knowing enough to ask you client if their staff have contracts etc and then advising them to talk to someone to get it sorted out. That’s the sort of thing I’m talking about.
I find it strange that whenever a sector is criticised those within it always jump to its defence. In my limited experience “most” accountants do not offer a service that I would consider adequate. I’m not interested in dealing with people who are just ok at their job. I want to deal with people who are superb at their job. I want to have absolute confidence in the competence of the people I buy services from. My wife holds similar expectations. She’s willing to pay a premium for that level of service but there is a disconnect between what is being offered and what is being charged. People working well within their comfort zone, just plodding through the day are a liability.
There is always enough work for the very best within any sector so the answer to the OP is if you want to be busy then be the very best. That requires ability, engagement so that you understand your customer and their business and lots of hard work. It’s simple but it’s not easy.


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## NorfBank (1 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Indeed, the same description is often applied to GPs



To be fair it can be applied to any profession - doctors, accountants, financial advisers, architects, civil servants..
As Sturgeons "Law" states "90% of everything is crud".

To stand out you no longer need to be extraordinary, you just need to match your clients expectations on a consistent basis.

Have a look at the Power City thread, they get great feedback because they confirm your order and deliver on time i.e they do their job. 

But they stand out because the industry standard of service is so abysmal.

It's the same in any industry, how many times have you been told that you'll get a callback within the hour only to receive it two days later or not at all?

Ok, that went a bit off topic, apologies. It doesn't really help the OP to get customers but once you have them, treat them well and they will refer new business to you.


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## kennyb3 (1 Nov 2011)

trg said:


> I have a real desire to work for myself, I currently have about 10 private small clients but they are generating around €5000 p.a. only, which is fine when there is only a few evenings and weekends but its a very small base to start from.
> 
> I reckon I would need to do generate €30k in year one and am at a loss as to how to go about getting it and also as to what is ethically acceptable.
> 
> ...


 

I think my main advice would be to save as much money as soon as possible if you really want to go out on your own (i think the same applies to most start up businesses)  - its often said that you need about 6 months cashflow when starting out (and possibly more).

Borrowing is risky and interest just another cost.

Lock up (WIP+debtors) is quite significant at present given the prevailing conditions so you really have to consider this.

You say you need to generate €30k in year one? It i'll be difficult to to generate that in year one, a practice is the type of business that needs to be built from the ground up. You've done the right thing so far, but i dont think you just give up your job and decide you want to open a practice.

How stuck for time are you? Could you get the €5k up to €10k and beyond in the mean time? Would the people you deal with already refer you to others? Are there any untapped friends? Are you involved in sporting clubs or other organisations in the local community? 

Have you considered a course on the practicalities of this? I'm ACA myself and they do a very useful going into practice course - not sure if the other bodies do the same.

Just some thoughts.


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> I find it strange that whenever a sector is criticised those within it always jump to its defence.



Please show me where in this thread I have jumped to anyone's defence. I just sought to clarify a few aspects of your posts that I thought might give rise to, or perhaps indicate, misunderstanding. If you don't consider my contributions to be constructive, apologies.


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## Purple (1 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Please show me where in this thread I have jumped to anyone's defence. I just sought to clarify a few aspects of your posts that I thought might give rise to, or perhaps indicate, misunderstanding. If you don't consider my contributions to be constructive, apologies.



At the danger of turning this into a love-in I didn’t mean to be critical of you to apologies right back at ya’. 
You are better positioned to comment so here’s a question for you as a practicing accountant who , based on the posts you make on AAM, is competent and good at their job. Do you think that there is a substantial number of (at best) mediocre accountants out there selling their services?


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> You are better positioned to comment so here’s a question for you as a practicing accountant who , based on the posts you make on AAM, is competent and good at their you. Do you think that there is a substantial number of (at best) mediocre accountants out there selling their services?



Of course I do. (Obviously, I'm not going to start naming names...)

There are also a lot of good ones who (in my estimation) try to provide a good service to their clients, who make a point of keeping up with the incessant changes in tax, company law, regulatory issues and technology, and who charge fair levels of fees.


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## trg (1 Nov 2011)

Folks,

Thanks for all the replies. I have professional indemnity insurance but not practising cert yet. 

As you have noticed I am unable to leave the job at the minute with the level of cash outlay I have. I suppose I am hoping for a wonder client i.e. a significant bill and good to pay. If I got that then I think I would take the risk, herself has a secure job and would keep the ship afloat for a bit. 

Its early days in this process but the desire is there as is the skill. I have had great experiences in the past (construction predominantly) and am good at pro-active work, I would not plan to simply file tax returns, I wish to delve into business and have them make disposable cash. That to me is the key. If I could make my name on that initially then business would come, I know that. 

I suppose the question is really how did the successful accountants here get going? 

Thanks


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## Niall M (1 Nov 2011)

T McGibney said:


> I wouldn't pay much heed to that thread. The poster who opened that thread (and apparently received a great deal on his accountancy fees) is himself a practising accountant


 
What are you trying to say about me?


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## T McGibney (1 Nov 2011)

trg said:


> I suppose the question is really how did the successful accountants here get going?



In my case, I obtained a commission to write a grant-aided business plan and that kept me going for about 3 months after I opened. After that, I built up a portfolio of clients over a period of a number of years.


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## trg (2 Nov 2011)

Thanks T McGibney, I will give the CEB a call and see is there anything available for a services business. Its basically the living expenses that I need to cover for a few months as the set up costs would not be massive.

Am getting cracking on the business plan tonight anyway


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## T McGibney (2 Nov 2011)

Just to clarify, the business plan task I got was to write one for another business. The CEB may be able to refer you to one or more of their clients who need a business plan for grant or other purposes. If the business plan itself qualified for grant aid, this would be ideal for you as then you will at least get paid once the job is done.


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## J.Ryan (2 Nov 2011)

Purple said:


> .....The advice I would expect is "You need to get "X" issue sorted out. I suggest you talk to an investment advisor/solicitor etc" *with a recommendation as to who you should talk to*. That’s what I mean about being proactive.


 
According to the CPD courses I've been on this is deemed to be investment advice and requires investment business authorisation from your institute.


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## J.Ryan (2 Nov 2011)

trg said:


> Folks,
> 
> Thanks for all the replies. I have professional indemnity insurance *but not practising cert yet*.


 
Be very careful what assignments you take on before you get that cert.



trg said:


> As you have noticed I am unable to leave the job at the minute with the level of cash outlay I have. I suppose *I am hoping for a wonder client i.e. a significant bill and good to pay.* If I got that then I think I would take the risk, herself has a secure job and would keep the ship afloat for a bit.


 
Again the institutes don't like you being reliant on any one client, even if you have an accountants practicing cert rather than an audit practicing cert.



trg said:


> Its early days in this process but the desire is there as is the skill. I have had great experiences in the past (construction predominantly) and am good at pro-active work, I would not plan to simply file tax returns, *I wish to delve into business and have them make disposable cash.* That to me is the key. If I could make my name on that initially then business would come, I know that.
> 
> I suppose the question is really how did the successful accountants here get going?
> 
> Thanks


 
That is more consultancy, than accountancy and it sounds like you want to do it for other people before doing it for your own business.


Why not approach the directors in your current job and start there


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## J.Ryan (2 Nov 2011)

Niall M said:


> What are you trying to say about me?


 



Niall M said:


> I agree, i am also an accountant and am amazed that an "accountant" could not tell yo uthe basic information. To qualify as an accountant one has to do continous training to keep informed on various updates, etc. Every single proper accountant should be able to answer the original question off the top of his head.


 
18 May 2006


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## Niall M (3 Nov 2011)

Have you ever heard of an accountant needing an auditor/accountant? I explained my position to Brendan and he has no issues with my post. I dont understand what ye are trying to suggest.


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## T McGibney (3 Nov 2011)

Niall M said:


> Have you ever heard of an accountant needing an auditor/accountant?



I have never heard of a practising accountant engaging a fellow accountant or auditor for services on the basis of a spam email.

In relation to audits, all practising accountants will be well aware of the limitation of scope implications of cut-price audit engagement deals.

You didn't mention any of this in the earlier thread. This is why I suggest that posters shouldn't pay much heed to it.


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## T McGibney (3 Nov 2011)

J.Ryan said:


> According to the CPD courses I've been on this is deemed to be investment advice and requires investment business authorisation from your institute.



Its also extremely risky for the accountant as they can in certain circumstances be deemed to be secondarily accountable for the consequences of bad advice or malpractice by a recommended third party. That's why most accountants will be reluctant to give specific third party recommendations to clients.


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## M K Brazil (24 Nov 2011)

I don't think people appreciate how difficult the accountants job is. If there is one profession that has risen to the challenge of the Celtic crash it is the accountancy profession. I can name literally hundreds of accountants still helping clients with their affairs even though they haven't been paid their fees. This is a terrible way to conduct a business, but still they do it out of decency.

As for the delay in getting advice, in tax the first thing I was thought is that there is nothing so dangerous as knowing the answer. Even when you are 100% sure, you are trained to double-check before answering in case some obsure judgement has changed the rules since you last looked.


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## MoM (25 Oct 2012)

Just bringing this up again.

What techniques to accountants generally use aside from referrals?

Has anyone used a marketing or business consultant?

Does a good website, and good click rate actually generate business?

Thoughts appreciated


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## goldie81 (1 Nov 2012)

Hi

Just to give my penny's worth. I started up a small(very small) accountancy practice from my home just over a year ago. I literally started from noting no clients etc,(was made redundant and had to make quick decisions) and in the first year i had a turnover of alomst €30k. I advertised in local papers, and on facebook. I advertised in particular to my niche area by post and email and used all my contacts both professionally and personally. In total in year 1 after advert, insurance, institute fees and software i had profits of almost €25k.
Previous posters have said that they wouldnt charge low fees, but my theory was/is, i was unemployed and am happy to make a weeks wage. A set of unaudited company accounts should in total take no longer than 1 week all in especially if they are already completed to reconciliation so i would feel a sum of €500-€1000 is appropriate for this work. When working full time in practice i was bringing home over €600 a week so my fees take this into account.

Yes my practice is never going to take over the world but how many existing practices out there can say they grow their fees last year by almost €30k???


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## MoM (2 Nov 2012)

Hi Goldie81, you don't seem to be able to receive PM's, just wanted to ask you a couple of questions in private if possible. Can you try PM me please.


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## goldie81 (2 Nov 2012)

Hi MoM

Cant seem to send pms either.What am i doing wrong?


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## kennyb3 (5 Nov 2012)

goldie81 said:


> Hi MoM
> 
> Cant seem to send pms either.What am i doing wrong?



Not reached minimum number of posts I guess. Maybe contact Brendan or check your account settings.


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