# Joule therm heating system



## shopgirl (2 Aug 2016)

Anyone have any experience/comments on the Joule therm heating system?  There is an Irish company www.ecovolt.ie supplying them & just wondered if anyone on here knows anything about it. Thanks


----------



## Buddyboy (2 Aug 2016)

Had a look at them before and I think they really fit the bill for any apartment or house that has electric storage heating, or any dwelling that does not already have plumbing for water fed heating. Introducing or retrofitting (water) radiators would cost the extra expense of plumbing in this instance and their electric heating negates the need for this (and uses the existing wiring of storage heating if this is already in place).

In a nutshell, it replaces the storage heaters with instant electric heaters. These are controlled by one or more programmable thermostats.  The system is far better than storage heaters for an Irish climate, in that it is far more controllable. 

They state 100% efficiency, which is strictly correct for electric heating - every kilowatt is converted into heat, but one thing I haven't worked out is how much the kilowatt costs. 

If you are in the position stated in the first paragraph, i.e. with existing storage heaters or no heaters, you could work out the installation costs of each system (water v's electric), plus the running costs based on the efficiency and cost of oil/gas/electricity.

If it were me, having lived in an apartment with storage heating, I would definitely convert to their system, but would do it myself, either using their radiators and thermostat, or sourcing similar. If I didn't have the skillset, I would definitely get them in to do it.


----------



## Leo (3 Aug 2016)

See the SEAI fuel cost comparisons [broken link removed]. Even at the claimed 100% efficiency, it's still way more expensive than gas or oil per delivered kW of heat.

In short, only go for electrical heating as a last resort unless you're in a near passive house.


----------



## shopgirl (3 Aug 2016)

Thanks guys.  I was considering it for a small cottage - the heating system needs to be upgraded and thought as the insulation will be very good it might be a way of avoiding digging up floors etc to put in a new gas central heating system.


----------



## Buddyboy (3 Aug 2016)

Don't get confused between the heating method, (gas/oil/whatever), and the heating delivery (Radiators/underfloor/ducted hot air/etc.).

The upgrade you need, if you already have a wet heating system, might just be a boiler and control upgrade, and possibly replacing some radiators.
That's assuming you have a wet heating system, and not just fireplaces.

If you just have fireplaces, then you have to factor in the capital cost of installing the radiator/wet system plus running cost, verses the possibly cheaper initial cost of an electric system with increased running costs.

And just to throw another cat amongst the pigeons, If it is an old cottage and you have upgraded the insulation, have you considered the need for ventilation?


----------



## shopgirl (3 Aug 2016)

Hi Buddyboy.   There is a gfch system there but the radiators will need to be replaced and more radiators added - I will be putting in vents as per the structural survey.  Thanks again.


----------



## Superstitious (22 Jun 2017)

Hi, we are thinking of getting joule therm heating for a three bed house we just bought. There is very old storage heaters in place. The cost is around 3k approx for 7 radiators. Wondering if anyone uses this system?how much is your electricity bill? How do you heat your water?
The alternative is gas;which cost around 5k plus we need gas company to supply to house.
Just trying to figure out which would have the cheaper running cost as i have two young children and we would be in house a fair amount.


----------



## fizzy (22 Jun 2017)

Another option worth considering is Lucht LHZ electric radiators. I replaced a large storage heater & panel heater in 2 rooms with these radiators recently & the difference in thermal comfort is amazing - they actually feel like proper central heating! Early days yet, but so far they have worked out a bit cheaper to run as well. You do lose the cheap night rate of the storage heaters, but should still see a reduction overall & much better warmth for that spend. We got ours from  No affiliation, just a happy customer.


----------



## Leo (22 Jun 2017)

Superstitious said:


> Hi, we are thinking of getting joule therm heating for a three bed house we just bought. There is very old storage heaters in place. The cost is around 3k approx for 7 radiators. Wondering if anyone uses this system?how much is your electricity bill? How do you heat your water?
> The alternative is gas;which cost around 5k plus we need gas company to supply to house.
> Just trying to figure out which would have the cheaper running cost as i have two young children and we would be in house a fair amount.



Oil or gas will have significantly lower running costs. Take a look at the SEAI fuel cost [broken link removed]. Even LPG would have less than half the running costs of electric heating.

Electric heating should really only be a last resort in your own home unless you're incorporating electricity generating capacity.


----------



## fizzy (22 Jun 2017)

Leo said:


> Oil or gas will have significantly lower running costs. Take a look at the SEAI fuel cost [broken link removed]. Even LPG would have less than half the running costs of electric heating.
> 
> Electric heating should really only be a last resort in your own home unless you're incorporating electricity generating capacity.



Totally agree with this. Electric heating is expensive to run, so if your budget allows for switching to gas etc, go for that. I only meant that as far as electric options go, Lucht radiators are good - sorry for any confusion.


----------



## Leo (22 Jun 2017)

fizzy said:


> Totally agree with this. Electric heating is expensive to run, so if your budget allows for switching to gas etc, go for that. I only meant that as far as electric options go, Lucht radiators are good - sorry for any confusion.



No problem at all, it's all about the circumstances and how they impact on the options available.


----------



## Superstitious (22 Jun 2017)

Thank leo and fizzy for your replies.
Thinking of it overall, better to put in gas boiler now as it will end up costing me in the long run.


----------



## Blondie73 (13 Sep 2017)

hi Fizzy - how are you getting on with your Lucht heaters.  We have old storage heaters in our house which we bought recently and are going to replace them for modern electric heaters -I was looking at the EcoVolt, Lucht and Fahro heaters and can't figure out which if any is better than the other.  Have you seen an improvement in your electric bills since you replaced your storage heaters?


----------



## fizzy (13 Sep 2017)

Blondie73 said:


> hi Fizzy - how are you getting on with your Lucht heaters.  We have old storage heaters in our house which we bought recently and are going to replace them for modern electric heaters -I was looking at the EcoVolt, Lucht and Fahro heaters and can't figure out which if any is better than the other.  Have you seen an improvement in your electric bills since you replaced your storage heaters?



Hi Blondie,

I never looked into the other brands so can't offer any input there but I'm thrilled with the Lucht heaters. Have actually just started using them again briefly this week after the summer & it was great that there was no smell at first at all & just 15-20 mins on is enough to warm up the room nicely in this weather in a way the panel heaters never did.

Now in terms of savings, I think that very much depends on your individual circumstances & use pattern. They are advertised as saving you lots of money, but I didn't buy into that. With storage heaters, they only use electricity on the cheap night rate, whereas the Lucht heaters are charged at the rate applicable at the time of use. If you're usually at home during the day like me, you will still have the heat on a lot in the winter at the day rate, so there is less potential for savings.

In my own case, I only got the first heater in towards the end of Winter and the other in May, so I'll need to go through a Winter before I can assess properly, particularly as coincidentally I was in the midst of switching electricity provider when my storage heater broke, so I was getting cost savings from that anyway.

Those caveats aside, from the rough unit usage comparisons I've done to date, I think I'm seeing a 10-15% saving. I actually think I'll make most savings from the panel heater to lucht heater switch I did in a smaller room, because the panel heater was on most of the day in Winter, whereas the lucht heater only tends to be using electricity about half the time it's on & the room is much warmer and more comfortable to boot. 

That's actual the primary benefit to me of the Lucht heaters - the heat they produce feels like proper central heating, not the dry, smelly heat of electric heaters that makes the air really stuffy while still not warming you up.

The only downside I see is that there are very few places selling them, so if they break down in the future repairs could be problematic whereas most electricians could service standard storage/panel heaters.

But I'm happy to take that risk & only wish I had switched to the Lucht heaters years ago & not had to endure so many years freezing with storage and panel heaters even though my electricity bills were very high.


----------



## Blondie73 (14 Sep 2017)

hi Fizzy many thanks for your reply.  We are leaning towards Fahro heaters which are sold here in Cork but I feel that Lucht, Fahro and EcoVolt heaters are all very similar and will run as efficiently as the other.  I'm just looking forward to getting rid of the big ugly storage heaters and the electric panal heaters in the bedrooms.  To be able to just flick on the heater as I would if I could this morning for half an hour will be blissful.


----------



## Leo (14 Sep 2017)

Blondie73 said:


> I'm just looking forward to getting rid of the big ugly storage heaters and the electric panal heaters in the bedrooms.  To be able to just flick on the heater as I would if I could this morning for half an hour will be blissful.



It'd be interesting to see what the effects will be on your energy consumption over time, comparing the performance of these versus the storage heaters.


----------



## Prosper (31 Dec 2017)

fizzy said:


> so I'll need to go through a Winter before I can assess properly, particularly as coincidentally I was in the midst of switching electricity provider when my storage heater broke, so I was getting cost savings from that anyway.





Blondie73 said:


> I'm just looking forward to getting rid of the big ugly storage heaters and the electric panal heaters in the bedrooms.


Any update on the comparison between Lucht or Fahro Heaters versus storage heaters?


----------



## bleary (2 Jan 2018)

I looked in to these some time ago. I found a lot of threads discussing and comparing them on UK threads. 
The summary seemed to be that they weren't really any different from standard electric heaters with thermostats and timers.
 In cases where storage heaters are not working or unsuitable for example people out all day and a well insulated home then they may reduce costs through limited consumption and the removal of the second meter and using standard rates. As the poster above said the main improvement they saw was in the replacement of the panel heater rather than the storage heater.
Replacing storage heaters the recommendation seemed to be to check out dimplex quantum heaters. There are some development projects for electric heating in the next few years (see real value under eu funded horizon2020 project).Possibly there will be improved grants in the future for heat pumps etc so I'm living with the old heaters for another while yet


----------



## fizzy (2 Jan 2018)

bleary said:


> I looked in to these some time ago. I found a lot of threads discussing and comparing them on UK threads.
> The summary seemed to be that they weren't really any different from standard electric heaters with thermostats and timers.
> In cases where storage heaters are not working or unsuitable for example people out all day and a well insulated home then they may reduce costs through limited consumption and the removal of the second meter and using standard rates. As the poster above said the main improvement they saw was in the replacement of the panel heater rather than the storage heater.
> Replacing storage heaters the recommendation seemed to be to check out dimplex quantum heaters. There are some development projects for electric heating in the next few years (see real value under eu funded horizon2020 project).Possibly there will be improved grants in the future for heat pumps etc so I'm living with the old heaters for another while yet



The Lucht heaters are very different from storage heaters: in how they operate (on demand vs night tariff), how they look and most importantly in the thermal comfort they give. The last factor is the big one for me - it feels like proper central heating, not the awful dry electric heating. 

Having been through the cold snap before Xmas, I was very glad of our Lucht heater versus our old storage heater. The storage heater had the room nice & warm in the morning, but then through the day of course the heat got used up & was not at all sufficient. Now with the Lucht heater, I can time it to be warm in the morning etc but then also have it on whenever needed throughout the day and it gives a lovely warm proper central heating feel.

I have found that it's now barely worth my while having both day & night meters because of no longer having the night storage heater use, but as I understand it it costs a few hundred euro to switch back to a standard meter, so I'll stick with them. I'll be running detailed figures in a few months when I have both new heaters a year, but so far I would be confident of some cost savings too - nothing that dramatic, but the place has been a lot warmer for less money overall so that's a big improvement overall!


----------



## iamaspinner (11 Jul 2018)

Hi fizzy. How did you find the Lucht heaters during the very cold weather snap this past winter and how was your bill afterwards?


----------



## fizzy (12 Jul 2018)

I was so grateful for the lucht heaters during the cold winter. I still have a standard panel heater in the bedroom so was able the compare, and the other rooms felt a lot better! That said, they needed to be on most of the time,  but relatives with gas etc were saying much the same.
I'll try & dig out some figures over the weekend but it is tricky to compare when the previous year was much milder etc & with lucht you don't get the benefit of cheap night rate. But i still think there were some savings & we were much warmer which is the main thing!


----------



## Leo (13 Jul 2018)

fizzy said:


> That said, they needed to be on most of the time, but relatives with gas etc were saying much the same.



Just in case anyone mistakes this for a convergence of running costs of electric and gas heating, even the most efficient electric heating systems will still cost you ~4 times as much as a modern gas boiler to deliver 1 kWh of heat energy to the room.

Costs for the two sources to provide the same heat outputs would align pretty closely if your gas heating system was only running at about 30% efficiency, which would be very unusual.


----------



## fizzy (13 Jul 2018)

Leo said:


> Just in case anyone mistakes this for a convergence of running costs of electric and gas heating, even the most efficient electric heating systems will still cost you ~4 times as much as a modern gas boiler to deliver 1 kWh of heat energy to the room.
> 
> Costs for the two sources to provide the same heat outputs would align pretty closely if your gas heating system was only running at about 30% efficiency, which would be very unusual.



Absolutely - sorry for any confusion here. My elec bills are still very high & I'd still view electric heating as the worst possible option.
I just meant that during the cold snap, people were generally using far more of whatever heating they had than usual.


----------



## fizzy (14 Jul 2018)

Found my comparison figures after first year having replaced main living room storage heater (3 Kw?) with lucht 1800 and 2 Kw panel heater in home office with lucht 1200.

Feb 2016 - 2017 (pre Lucht): 52% day units, 48% night

Feb 2017 - 2018 (post Lucht): 77% day units, 23% night
26% increase in day units
60% decrease in night units
But just a 1% reduction in overall cost

However, last Winter was severe whereas the previous one was mild, so when I exclude the Dec-Feb bills, there was an 8% cost reduction.

So my experience has been that there is a modest cost saving, but the main positive is definitely a warmer, more comfortable apartment with a proper central heating feel.


----------



## liddy.mc@gmail (7 Oct 2020)

@fizzy just wondering are you still happy with the Lucht heaters? 
I'm considering replacing my storage/ panel heaters and can't decide between EcoVolt & Lucht....


----------



## fizzy (7 Oct 2020)

liddy.mc@gmail said:


> @fizzy just wondering are you still happy with the Lucht heaters?
> I'm considering replacing my storage/ panel heaters and can't decide between EcoVolt & Lucht....



Yes, still thrilled with the lucht heaters & no issues at all with either one yet a few years on (hope I don't jinx it saying that!).

Mind you I've no knowledge/experience of EcoVolt so they could be just as great or better of course...

But I can speak relative to standard storage and panel heaters, and there is no comparison. So I'd definitely advise replacing them with something.

The day my old main storage heater broke down mid winter was a blessing in disguise, because of all the toasty days I've had since


----------



## liddy.mc@gmail (7 Oct 2020)

fizzy said:


> Yes, still thrilled with the lucht heaters & no issues at all with either one yet a few years on (hope I don't jinx it saying that!).
> 
> Mind you I've no knowledge/experience of EcoVolt so they could be just as great or better of course...
> 
> ...



Thanks for your quick response @fizzy 
That's exactly what's happened to me, main storage heater broken down so it's now or never I suppose (plus, getting parts for a 30+ years old storage heater isn't that easy apparently!) I'm just a bit concerned that I'd be losing my night rate....


----------



## fizzy (7 Oct 2020)

liddy.mc@gmail said:


> Thanks for your quick response @fizzy
> That's exactly what's happened to me, main storage heater broken down so it's now or never I suppose (plus, getting parts for a 30+ years old storage heater isn't that easy apparently!) I'm just a bit concerned that I'd be losing my night rate....



The night rate is a factor. If you get enough heat out of it by just heating it at night, perhaps look into newer storage heater models. They could well be an improvement on what you had. 

But I had to augment mine with a panel heater (and the convector part my storage heater had) into the afternoon & all evening, so I was still using a lot of daytime units too.


----------



## iamaspinner (7 Oct 2020)

@fizzy 

Do the Lucht make the occasional crackling sound the oil heaters make when cooling down?

Did you buy yours in Ireland (I can only find one place there they sell them)?

Did you get the smart app control?


----------



## fizzy (7 Oct 2020)

iamaspinner said:


> @fizzy
> 
> Do the Lucht make the occasional crackling sound the oil heaters make when cooling down?
> 
> ...



I haven't had oil heaters so not sure about those sounds, but our Lucht heaters are very quiet. They may make the very odd crack sound once in a blue moon, whereas our panel heater would do that more often. The Luchts are so silent in fact we have to put an ornament etc nearby to indicate the heater is on, or we would forget all about it & just forget to turn it off!

We got ours from https://www.smartelectrics.ie/ - no affiliation, just a happy customer.

The app control wasn't available yet when we got ours. I did enquire about it down the line when it did, but the cost to fit the wireless stuff wasn't worth it to us & we would rarely use it anyway.


----------



## notabene (5 Oct 2021)

liddy.mc@gmail said:


> Thanks for your quick response @fizzy
> That's exactly what's happened to me, main storage heater broken down so it's now or never I suppose (plus, getting parts for a 30+ years old storage heater isn't that easy apparently!) I'm just a bit concerned that I'd be losing my night rate....


Hi Liddy, 

just wondering which company you went with? getting quotes from both currently as looking to replace storage heating - were you happy with your choice?

Thanks


----------

