# Can a mobile home be a PPR & do you think this will make planning easier?



## mloc (26 Apr 2011)

*Can a mobile home be a principle residence? *

I saw this place for sale in Kilmore Quay on the Buy & Sell website [broken link removed] 

Its a beautiful spot and I think the price would be really good if I could eventually build a house on it.

If they used it as a PPR do you think this will make it easier for planning permission?


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## bullworth (27 Apr 2011)

You would probably be freezing if you lived there in a mobile home outside of the summer months. Sorry just realised that was off topic.


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## Sandals (27 Apr 2011)

lived in mobile house while building for 18 months six years ago when weather was thankfully good. It would be very harsh to live in one the last two winters. If your looking to build, is the site worth 80K as that mobile looks at least 10-15 years old.


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## ajapale (27 Apr 2011)

Since this is a planning question Im moving it from Property investment and tenants' rights to  Sites, planning, self-builds and extensions.


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## threebedsemi (28 Apr 2011)

I havent looked into this in detail, but would think that a home can only be a PPR if if has planning permission to be there in the first place. 

Does the mobile home in question have planning permission is the first question you should ask. I would doubt it as most planning authorities will not grant permission for a mobile home to be used as a permanent residence, with the only get out clause being that presumably used by Sandals, where 'temporary accommodation' can be erected on a site for the duration of building works associated with a house that had been granted planning permission.

Another very important question is: is there already a proper effluent treatment system in place to serve the mobile home? If there is, this would be in your favour.

I dont see how the Planning Authority would be swayed in terms of granting permission for a permanent house by there being a mobile home on a site. 

Check out the current planning status of the site, including any planning history in terms of refusals or grants of permission, and set up a meeting with the relevant planning officer in order to find out what their current opinion on the possibilities of obtaining planning for a permanent home are.


www.studioplustwo.com


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## Gekko (28 Apr 2011)

I read some case law recently (in the context of a tax query) and concluded that a mobile home which has in effect been "immobilised" (i.e. attached to services such as water, gas and sewage) should be classified as a PPR for tax purposes.


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## threebedsemi (28 Apr 2011)

Thats quite interesting Gekko. I suppose that it may follow that any address to which one has been receiving post over a prolonged period (electricity bills, bank statements etc.) could be successfully argued to be ones permanent address, even if it is a tent in a field... although an electrical connection to a tent doesn't bear thinking about   .

Going back to the planning question, even if the mobile home in question can be sucesssfully argued to legally be the permanent place of residence of the current owners, it does not mean that the Planning Regulations have been complied with in respect of the development on the site. 

www.studioplustwo.com


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## paddi22 (29 Apr 2011)

it would depend on the planning laws of the local council. I live in an area where people always had fields with holiday home for decades. 

Over the last few years more and more people are putting structures on sites and applying for planning permission.Up to 10 years ago people could get away with now, now its impossible. They have stopped further building completely.


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## RKQ (29 Apr 2011)

Wexford County Council are quite strict with mobile homes. Temporary permission can be granted in exceptional circumstances under strict conditions.
I'd be very suprised if it has planning permission, so legally IMO it is agricultural land & not worth 79K. Check the planning permission on Council website online. Use the sat map or townland name to find location of site & see if permission exists on that land.
I doubt it can be classed as PPR - so "Buyer beware".


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## onq (2 May 2011)

mloc said:


> *Can a mobile home be a principle residence? *
> 
> I saw this place for sale in Kilmore Quay on the Buy & Sell website [broken link removed]
> 
> ...



First off, stop selling yourself this deal. 
So many people dupe themselves on wishlists.
You're the buyer, its a buyer's market, act like a buyer.

=========================

Three legal definitions come to mind, off the top of my head.

In  terms of the recent Census, a place is a PPR if someone normally  resides there - leased, owned, "let stay" - its their PPR regardless.

In  terms of Tax law, if you reside in a jurisdiction for a minimum 183  days of the year, you are liable for income tax in that domain.

In terms of planning law some conflicting issues arise - 


establishment of a non-comforming use can arise after 7 years without permission
development plans may distinguish between permanent abodes and holiday homes
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Practically  speaking , all residences must provide suitable accommodation to  support the activity of residential living - eating, sleeping, washing,  cooking, etc.
Therefore as has been mentioned before, utilities bills may be offered  in support of a claim, as could permanent connection to services.
But the real issue seems to be the use and the difference between "permanent", "holiday" and "temporary".

These seem to be defined using some very fine lines

Temporary and  permanent are defined by the quality of construction, the intended term  of existence and the works carried out to the land.
A caravan is the one form of temporary residential accommodation.
But  equally a shed or tent can satisfy this definition, depending on what  support services are nearby, so we need to look a little deeper.

Temporary structures seem to be a little different from temporary accommodation.
A temporary structure does not need foundations or a permanent connection to services.
A chemical toilet, a soakaway, a generator and a potable water storage tank will satisfy basic human living requirements.
You'd even get away with bottled water as long as you had some water for washing nearby.

However, even the most rudimentary permitted permanent dwelling needs 


foundations
a means of disposal of waste and foul water, either on site or to a piped connection
a well or piped water supply of potable water
a supply of electricity
I am not aware of a recently permitted permanent dwelling that did not satisfy all these requirements.

Yet  even fairly basic holiday homes will typically be on a (rubber) piped  water connection and will have a connection to piped waste services.
Typically, the €2,000 a year minimum services fee goes to cover these.
Some holiday homes in Clare are on permanent piped waste services.
Some  housing estates of permanent houses in Wicklow  are connected to treatment plants.
These are not holiday homes and they are on a private treatment plant, not piped waste services to a Council treatment plant.

=========================

In  terms of the intent, there may be a difference between PPRs and Holiday  Homes in terms of nett financial gain and services load to an area.

Typically  Holiday Homes tend ot be seasonal and so their services load occurs in  the summer, which even in Ireland is relatively warmer and dryer than  the winter months 
- less use of electricity because of warmer temperatures and longer daylight hours
- the grass is growing and so in theory septic tanks are working.

If  a house is used all year round the services cost rocket in the winter  and the septic tank, which may have been okay in the summer, could  develop problems in the winter due to water tables, etc.

The implications for the community support services also vary with the intended use.


Schools  are typically not burdened with usage by occupants of holiday homes -  although this has changed in recent years with the growing use of summer  schools.
Similarly medical and related consultants may treat  holiday related accidents - some quite severe- but the run of the mill  winter flood of respiratory related diseases are not directly  proportional to the summer holiday peak.
having said that, many well-to-do older couples like to "winter" abroad, and their permanent PPR houses are looked after by caretakers during the six months from October to March.

So there are grey  areas, but a broad definition and the associated usage pattern allows  consideration of holidays homes as nett earners for otherwise  economically disadvantaged areas.
Therefore there is an issue  arising which could impact on the Public Good and creates additional  strain on the exchequer and a drain on services privoded by the State if  all holiday homes were allowed become permanent residences merely by  the whim of the inhabitants.
This suggests that regardless of any  legal niceties one might argue, there would be a reluctance by the  establishment - the local authorites and the courts - to allow  unregulated conversions of this particular residential use to permanent  residential status.

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However,  long before you could try to address any outstanding issues via planning  law or the law of the land you need to know where you stand with the  existing and intended residential use on this property.

For all you know this could be a kite flying expedition by a con-man.
After all, its not even being given a gloss of respectability by being offered through an estate agent.
No one appears to be in a position to offer you assurances in relation to title, or legal standing of the use.
Even were an Estate Agent on board, in this case I would be even more wary, not less.

Personally I'd pay no more for this site than the going price for a second hand mobile  home, dependant on whether it has its own access and the services thereon.

I doubt  this will reflect the asking price, but you may be buying a location.

Even so, I would only pay such a price if it can be shown that the item for sale has and complies with a  permission for the residential use on the site and all the legals are in  place in terms of ownership, Rights of Way, Easements, Services, etc.

The vendor might only be leasing the land for grazing purposes for all you know!!!

I would also be very wary of someone claiming adverse possession or  established rights - these might apply only to the person claiming them  and might not be transferrable.

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IMO you would be most unwise - given the tangled nest of issues outlined above - to buy this "property" on the assumption that -
(i) it can continue as is, unless its legality can be so proved or 
(ii) that you will achieve permission even if the legals are sorted.​However you are between a rock and a hard place in terms of getting any view from the local authority.
Planners have a practice of not speaking to  anyone on a speculative basis - you had to have a legal interest in the  property.
This means that you may be refused a meeting or even a phone conversation with them to discuss the possibility of a permission here.

This  doesn't stop you getting on your bike and looking at the local  authority website or calling into the Planning Counter.
Here you can research similar kinds of situations and  finding out whether permission was granted and the circumstances of  same.
If this would seem like looking into a bush to you, you could alternatively consider appointing a planning professionals to investigate matters.
I also strongly suggest you engage a reputable solicitor to inspect any documents offered in support of the use, its provenance and/or its continuance.

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Therefore and in conclusion, I would be very wary about moving forward with this unless everything checks out.

ONQ.

  [broken link removed]

  All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied              upon                                                                                            as  a          defence    or            support   -         in          and     of               itself   -                       should                      legal                    action              be                       taken.
  Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise         in                                                                                                  Real      Life      with        rights       to                inspect         and             issue                     reports           on            the                               matters         at                      hand.


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## mloc (4 May 2011)

Thanks everybody, really good feedback. Onq, I'm definitely moving slower after reading your post.


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