# Masters not eligible for BTEA support - Why ?



## redstar (5 May 2009)

I am on Jobseekers Benefit and looking at doing a Masters if I do not get a job between now and Sept.

However, BTEA is not available for Masters courses, only postgrad HDips.
This is bizarre. 
Why would someone doing a fulltime masters course not be allowed to claim BTEA and lose JB allowance, yet a HDip is supported ?
In many courses, the only difference between a masters and a HDip is the completion of a thesis or project. Without these you get a hdip. With them you get a masters.

I do not have any other postgrad qualification.

For me, the masters would be a progression from my existing IT based qualifications, and would help me to upskill my knowledge to help me compete better in the job market.


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## redstar (12 May 2009)

I have sent this query to Minister Hanafin. The issue "is being raised by department officials".
Will post back here with their reply ...


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## Welfarite (12 May 2009)

The BTEA is designed to encourage peopel to better chances of getting work  by studying at second level and third level stages. It doesn't extend to MAs due to cost and fact that peopel with degrees are more likley to get work than those without (rules made before current jobs crisis). Hdips for teachng were added when tehre was a shortage of teachers a few years ago. I'd imagine changes will be introduced in the changing climate in future budgets. Already, they've relaxed the rules for getting onto teh scheme in the last budget.


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## postgradder (20 May 2009)

hi redstar,

i have a b in my bonnet about this too. im also looking at doing a postgrad in september - been unemplyed since last july, so will qualify for the BTEA.

from what i can gather, the reason the social welfare dont support masters courses is because they dont want the scheme to be abused by all and sundry i.e. people would deliberately sign on for a couple of months prior to doing their masters in order to qualify for the BTEA.

the 3rd level option of the BTEA is supposed to be for graduates who, despite having a degree, are still having difficulty getting a job. this is where the hdip comes in. 
hdip courses are classified as "conversion courses" for people who want to diversify their qualifications e.g. an arts graduate doing a hdip in computer science. In fact, you can only get into a hdip course if your primary degree is not relevant to the hdip course topic.
Essentially, the 3rd level option of the BTEA is for people who need to diversify their qualifications in order to make them more employable, and subsequently get them off the dole. it is not meant to be a means of furthering your education, per se. (and nothing got to do with teacher shortages as far as i know)

The BTEA actually suits me perfectly. i am looking to diversify as much as possible. my degree is in quantity surveying and all my work experience is in property development (not exactly inundated with job offers at the moment as you can imagine!) And so a conversion course suits me fine.

I am looking at doing a postgrad in Accounting and there are three conversion courses which interest me :
Professional diploma in Accounting @ DCU
Postgraduate diploma in Accounting @ DIT
Hdip in Accounting @ UCC

The three courses are identical in terms of their content, professional exemptions etc. However, according to the SW, they will only let me do the hdip in UCC. (not very convenient for me, considering i live in dublin).

ive tried to take this up with them at my local SW office, but seem to be hitting a brick wall.
none of them are able to explain to me the difference between a hdip/postgraduate dip/professional dip or why they distinguish between them.
As far as i know, there is no difference. they are all postgraduate diplomas, just different colleges use different names. but i cant seem to get this point across to the SW people. really frustrating!

redstar, i would be very interested to hear how you got on mith ms hanafin. would appreciate it greatly if you could post any advice/info. maybe i should speak to someone in her office myself, might get a more helpful response.

i think the qualifying criteria for the BTEA is outdated and completely out of sync with the current climate. i mean, there are thousands of graduates on the dole at the moment and it doesnt look like they'll be going back to work any time soon. they might as weel be doing something useful while theyre collecting the dole i.e. a postgrad. its not like its going to cost the state any extra, if the person is already on the dole. just doesnt make sense to me that the SW are being so specific about the type of postgrad.


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## Welfarite (20 May 2009)

Good post, that. I also think the scheme needs serious overhaul; a bit of background to this is that it was localisded from a central office a few years ago. Needless to say, local staff recieved zilch training in what qualifies and what doesn't, they were told to access the same info. that the customer can access on the web! And that is why there is so much confusion every year. It was, as I posted elsewhere, a scheme to get persons who were long term on the dole to get better education, not to get better degrees. And terachers were scarce so they allowed the HDip teaching exemption to get teachers qualified.


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## redstar (20 May 2009)

Agreed, the Govts policies on supporting education for those on the dole needs to be brought up to date with todays realities.
There are plenty of teachers now, so should be no need to specify a teaching hdip as a special case for BTEA.
There is a shortage of highly qualified people in Science and engineering. Most people in these fields have degrees but as Science/IT/Eng is ever changing, people need to further their knowledge by doing Masters or PhD's.
I can't see how a unemployed software engineer could be helped by studying for a HDip in, say, finance. They would have no work experience in finance, and thus be back to the old catch22 of "no job without experience, no experience without a job".

If Ireland is to become a knowledge economy and compete globally for knowledge related jobs, we need people educated beyond degree level.


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## postgradder (20 May 2009)

_*There are plenty of teachers now, so should be no need to specify a teaching hdip as a special case for BTEA*_

They should be paying people NOT to go into teaching!...there has been a huge influx of people into teacher-training courses in the last 12 months (job security etc.). 
I know of several people from my own profession who are going into teacher-training courses just out of pure desperation. There'll be more teachers than students in another couple of years!

The current BTEA qualifying criteria has been in place since 2003 (there was a shortage of teachers back then apparently). It beggars belief that this criteria has not been revised despite the fact that we have had two budgets in the last 6 months!!
Just another example of how the governemnt are completely out sync with current demands!


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## Welfarite (21 May 2009)

Folks, I'm moving this to the main Welfare and State Benefits thread as it's related to BTEA issues rather than JB issues.


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## Davidium (12 Jan 2010)

Hi Folks,

It seems all the thread entries are from May 09, I was wondering if anyone has any update? I was hoping to do a masters in Sep-10 but so far all documentation points to only a HDip (a rediculously idiotic limitation). Can exceptions be made on an individual basis or is it a straight line across the board?

I have to say I agree with alot of the points raised here, the fact that the BTEA guidelines date back to 2003 is shocking especially given the most recent budget was suppose to be putting the country on the road to recovery, I guess the governments plan must be more teachers. Yet another case of how disconnected from reality and its electorate this government is.


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## Pope John 11 (8 Feb 2010)

Yes, I was looking to do a post graduate course, but having read this thread it appears I will not get the BETA. Has anyone any update on this. I would appreciate any comments.

What is the government doing to cater for those on social welfare, with degrees, who are looking to educate themselves better.

Surely a person with a degree qualification, looking to do a post-graduate course is entitled to apply for BETA.

Is the govenment trying to prevent these persons from reeducating themselves, thus keeping them on the dole.

For me, to do a H dip, really restricts my options


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## Welfarite (9 Feb 2010)

No change since last posts!


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## Buddyg (9 Feb 2010)

Why should the state pay for you to study full time for a masters when you already have a degree. If you can't get a job with a degree then a masters is not going to help.


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## Buddyg (9 Feb 2010)

Why not do it the way you are meant to, with a scholarship to support you and pay fees. 

This is what I did for years and would never expect the social welfare to pay. Of course you have to have a decent academic record to compete, much like the jobs market.


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## Pope John 11 (12 Feb 2010)

Buddyg said:


> Why should the state pay for you to study full time for a masters when you already have a degree. If you can't get a job with a degree then a masters is not going to help.


 
Very much a wild statement, educating yourself all the time is of course a help.


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## truthseeker (12 Feb 2010)

Buddyg said:


> Why not do it the way you are meant to, with a scholarship to support you and pay fees.


 
If the only people who were educated were those who had done their degrees on scholarships then we would have a very uneducated society.


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## serotoninsid (12 Feb 2010)

can you start another degree even though you might have completed one in the past?


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## Buddyg (12 Feb 2010)

truthseeker said:


> If the only people who were educated were those who had done their degrees on scholarships then we would have a very uneducated society.


 We're talking about postgraduate studies here.


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## Buddyg (12 Feb 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> Very much a wild statement, educating yourself all the time is of course a help.


 Not really true when you could be getting experience in work or professional qualifications.


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## Pope John 11 (12 Feb 2010)

Buddyg said:


> Not really true when you could be getting experience in work or professional qualifications.


 
We have assumed thst there is no work in this field, & that a person already has a professional qualification & still cannot find work, hence the reason for doing the post-graduate studies. Just to note that you can also get another professional qualification by doing a post-grad course in case you didn't know.


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## Welfarite (12 Feb 2010)

serotoninsid said:


> can you start another degree even though you might have completed one in the past?


 Yes, in certain circumstances;

"BTEA (SLO/TLO) will not be approved in respect of a person who holds a qualification equivalent or higher than the qualification for which the BTEA application has been received. However, consideration will be given in certain circumstances i.e. length of time since obtaining the first qualification, efforts to get employment with qualification already held and periods of unemployment since obtaining first qualification. The main consideration in such cases is that the proposed further qualification will substantially enhance the person's employment prospects. "


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## Buddyg (12 Feb 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> We have assumed thst there is no work in this field, & that a person already has a professional qualification & still cannot find work, hence the reason for doing the post-graduate studies. Just to note that you can also get another professional qualification by doing a post-grad course in case you didn't know.


 People need to realise that education is not the answer to a broken life. 

There are many people with average degrees, out of work and competing for very limited positions with many quality candidates around. 

They need a more creative approach to getting ahead. Maybe start a business, make contacts somethign different than the usual, ah I will get a masters and then I will be fine. No, you will just waste another year and thousands more of your or taxpayers money.


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## serotoninsid (12 Feb 2010)

Buddyg said:


> People need to realise that education is not the answer to a broken life.


 A broken life????
Who here is saying education in and of itself guarantees success?


Buddyg said:


> They need a more creative approach to getting ahead. Maybe start a business, make contacts somethign different than the usual, ah I will get a masters and then I will be fine. No, you will just waste another year and thousands more of your or taxpayers money.


I can't disagree that a 'more creative approach' may be required. However, there is no guarantee of finding that 'creative approach' and making it work either.
I don't think anyone here is under the illusion that 'getting a masters' will solve all their working life problems - those days passed many many years ago at this stage.
Can education help - well, it certainly cannot hurt can it? Are they not better off undergoing F.E. with taxpayers money rather than having no focus whatsoever on benefit ie. also taxpayers money?  I certainly wouldn't knock people taking a positive step like this.


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## Welfarite (12 Feb 2010)

My tuppence worth to this debate:

In the good times, the peopel left lanquishing on the 'dole' were those who had left school at an early age without any great qualifications. In was in this context that the BTEA was introduced; as an incentive for people to educate themselves to a level where they could contribute to society by working. This option included second-level BTEA support as well as support up to ordianry degree level. The exclusion of a Master's from such support would seem practical and logical when the aims of the scheme are understood. Now that the economic situation has deteriorated, the goalposts may have shifted in that the demographics of those signing on have changed. And in the light of the government's constrained finances, I doubt that it would be feasible to extend the BTEA to include Master's degrees; in fact, the change may be restricted even more than it is at the moment, the aim being to get people back to work rather than use scarce funds to educate them beyond degree level.


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## Pope John 11 (12 Feb 2010)

Welfarite said:


> ........the aim being to get people back to work rather than use scarce funds to educate them beyond degree level.


 
Understand your point Welfarite & the reason for BETA, but the aim above is non-existent in some fields now & the government don't seem to be doing anything to create new work etc. Note also that there seem to be queues of persons waiting to get onto FAS courses too. Government is doing nothing to help here either.


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## Welfarite (12 Feb 2010)

Pope John 11 said:


> Understand your point Welfarite & the reason for BETA, but the aim above is non-existent in some fields now & the government don't seem to be doing anything to create new work etc. Note also that there seem to be queues of persons waiting to get onto FAS courses too. Government is doing nothing to help here either.


 
Agreed. Government will probably react when crisis is over.


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## Tanora (2 Jun 2010)

*Query for Postgradder*

Postgradder;I've a similiar backround to yourself and was also considering an accounting post grad conversion course. Did you take on the course?If so would you mind sharing your experience with me?
Thanks in advance.


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