# Is it time to give the nutters more publicity?



## Peanuts20 (2 Mar 2021)

Fascinating article on the front page of this weekends Sunday Times. The journalist spoke to 2 protestors on Saturday who seem to believe that 7000 people in Ireland went missing last year and that some of them are buried underneath RTE in Donnybrook so their bodies can be used to create a ************************** to keep RTE personalities looking younger. They said it was on a website so obviously it must be true !!

The likes of RTE don't report these theories but should they?. Most people are sane and rational and all myself and herself on Sunday morning could do is burst out laughing when we read it. So here is my question, rather the shoving these theories under the carpet, should the mainstream media tell the nation what these nutters believe so that people can see that they really shouldn't be taken seriously?

Just a thought?  I can see both side -no such thing as bad publicity but at the same time..........


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## Merowig (2 Mar 2021)

If that kind of stuff appears in mainstream media it will be taken out of context and claimed to be fact (even RTE reported on it) or some people might misunderstand it and believe it as fact...


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## EmmDee (2 Mar 2021)

I understand the argument that exposing the mad theories shows them to be crazy. But given the experience of the last 5 or 6 years, I think that putting a crazy theory on the same platform as reality gives them equal treatment - so you fall for the nonsense of false balance where a scientist with a PHD is forced to debate science with Eammon from Clontarf who believes the vaccine alters your DNA because he saw a YouTube video

It reminds of the time Newsnight had the ex Head of  the WTO debating WTO rules with a Brexit supporter because they had to have balance on the show


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## Purple (2 Mar 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> Just a thought? I can see both side -no such thing as bad publicity but at the same time..........


There is a cohort of very stupid people out there. We shouldn't think that we don't have a stock of people in the same mould as the QAnon/Flat Earther/Creationist/Bill Gates-Lizard people-Illuminate/MAGA Trump supporting knuckle-dragging racists in America. They will think that stuff is real. Remember most of us were raised to believe in three-in-one Sky Fairies who could walk on water and rise from the dead.


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## Merowig (2 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> Remember most of us were raised to believe in three-in-one Sky Fairies who could walk on water and rise from the dead.


I still do and wonder if that slander was necessary for making your point.


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## Firefly (2 Mar 2021)

You would've thought Darwin's theory of evolution would have weeded these nutjobs from civilisation at this stage but it seems not..


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## Purple (2 Mar 2021)

Merowig said:


> I still do and wonder if that slander was necessary for making your point.


I think so, yes. I think they are intrinsically linked.
If there is a god and he/she created this vast universe and everything in it I have to believe that they don't suffer from low self esteem. Therefore on that basis I'm comfortable ignoring the first three of the ten commandments.


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## john luc (3 Mar 2021)

It would be nice to have a time machine and go back to the past and neuter their mothers. Solve a lot of things


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## joe sod (3 Mar 2021)

john luc said:


> It would be nice to have a time machine and go back to the past and neuter their mothers. Solve a lot of things


You mean like Hitler  did that's the danger of all this talk. When you castigate one side as nutters and ban from debate because not "experts " or whatever you very quickly go down a dangerous road thats already been travelled. Their are extremists and nutjobs on both sides.


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## Purple (3 Mar 2021)

Merowig said:


> I still do and wonder if that slander was necessary for making your point.


You can't slander the dead so to me it's isn't slander but I suppose to you it is..


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## EmmDee (3 Mar 2021)

joe sod said:


> When you castigate one side as nutters and ban from debate because not "experts " or whatever you very quickly go down a dangerous road thats already been travelled. Their are extremists and nutjobs on both sides.



You absolutely can say that someone who has no expertise in a field (e.g. vaccines) does not get to have equal treatment as people with expertise. You don't have the weather forecast followed by a Psychic "for balance". 

There isn't a "both sides" on the question of virus "sceptics", 5G sceptics, QAnon etc.


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## odyssey06 (3 Mar 2021)

I think the Journal, with its Fact Check articles does a good job of debunking these claims when they come into the spotlight in case people are curious about them e.g.








						Adrenochrome: why was a QAnon conspiracy drug name-checked at Dublin's anti-lockdown protest?
					

A false claim involving the chemical, RTÉ and dead infants was made at Saturday’s protest.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## joe sod (3 Mar 2021)

If you are having a discussion about the technicalities of vaccines or of viruses etc well then yes your argument holds EmmDee that only experts should be in the discussion. However this is being used as the thin edge of the wedge to censor rigorous debate on for example lockdowns. Therefore experts on viruses that were in favour of "zero covid " which has much wider societal and economic impacts far outside the technicalities of virus transmission. You use that basis to censor opponents to zero covid that may not be narrow virus experts. In any case experts like sam McConkey have been wide off the mark in his pessimism with regards to vaccine rollout and his lack.of understanding of the logistics of trying to implement zero covid in Ireland with the border with northern Ireland , the predominance of us multinationals especially in the pharma sector who need liberal access to us, UK and Europe in.order to run their complex operations. We seem to only value experts that are confined to labs in universities and not really fully engaged with the realities on the ground


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## Firefly (3 Mar 2021)

Interesting article in today's IT on the subject: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kathy-sheridan-mockery-is-oxygen-for-covid-19-deniers-1.4499299


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## Purple (3 Mar 2021)

EmmDee said:


> You absolutely can say that someone who has no expertise in a field (e.g. vaccines) does not get to have equal treatment as people with expertise. You don't have the weather forecast followed by a Psychic "for balance".
> 
> There isn't a "both sides" on the question of virus "sceptics", 5G sceptics, QAnon etc.


I agree but a virologist is not an epidemiologist and neither are qualified as experts on issues such as lockdowns, zero covid etc. as they have a wider societal and social impact. I'd go so far as to say that neither are qualified to offer judgements on the totality of the Public Health impacts of the disease or the efforts to limit the infection rates within the wider community. 
Neither have expertise in mental health, educational outcomes, addiction, domestic abuse, the impact of cancelled outpatient appointments, delayed diagnosis, the longer term impact of reductions in future investment in healthcare and education due to the economic cost of the pandemic and lockdowns.

They are qualified to advise the government and the government, for all its failings, is far more qualified to make decisions in the broader context of balanced societal needs. That doesn't mean they will make the right decisions rather they are far better placed to make the right decisions.


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Mar 2021)

EmmDee said:


> You don't have the weather forecast followed by a Psychic "for balance".



That is brilliant. It would be a great skit.


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## tomdublin (7 Mar 2021)

There are clearly some crackpots out there but it's important not to tar all protesters with the same brush.  Some do have relevant civil liberties arguments that deserve to be heard and that should help inform government policy during Covid.  For example, provided all protocols regarding testing and quarantine are being observed, I'm not sure the near-blanket travel ban is justified given how severely it interferes with people's basic constitutional rights.  The media's tendency to depict all dissenters as QAnon-type nutters is not helpful.


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## Prosper (7 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> Remember most of us were raised to believe in three-in-one Sky Fairies who could walk on water and rise from the dead.


I now feel that I had a deprived childhood because I never heard of that. Is there some way I can sue someone ?


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## Purple (8 Mar 2021)

Prosper said:


> I now feel that I had a deprived childhood because I never heard of that. Is there some way I can sue someone ?


You can find it in any church or religious place of worship. The older ones are called religions. The newer ones are called cults but they are pretty much the same thing.
I don't think you can sue anyone but if you do let me know; I went to the Christian Brothers and they never touched me. It had a terrible effect on my self esteem.


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## Ceist Beag (8 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> I went to the Christian Brothers and they never touched me. It had a terrible effect on my self esteem.


Purple sometimes your "jokes" are absolutely disgusting and belong in the gutter. That is one of them.


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## john luc (8 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> You can find it in any church or religious place of worship. The older ones are called religions. The newer ones are called cults but they are pretty much the same thing.
> I don't think you can sue anyone but if you do let me know; I went to the Christian Brothers and they never touched me. It had a terrible effect on my self esteem.


I like it


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## EmmDee (8 Mar 2021)

tomdublin said:


> There are clearly some crackpots out there but it's important not to tar all protesters with the same brush.  Some do have relevant civil liberties arguments that deserve to be heard and that should help inform government policy during Covid.  For example, provided all protocols regarding testing and quarantine are being observed, I'm not sure the near-blanket travel ban is justified given how severely it interferes with people's basic constitutional rights.  The media's tendency to depict all dissenters as QAnon-type nutters is not helpful.



If a segment have relevant, rational, thought-out positions, they would do their cause a lot of good by not sharing platforms with anti-science, 5G-sceptics & "RTE have babies in the basement" type of groups.

They can't complain about being lumped in with the QAnon types if they keep hanging out with them - and don't disassociate themselves from the views


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## tomdublin (8 Mar 2021)

EmmDee said:


> They can't complain about being lumped in with the QAnon types if they keep hanging out with them - and don't disassociate themselves from the views


Or the QAnon/"RTE eats babies"-types choose to hang out with their more sensible counterparts.   Organizers of public protests can't control who's attending.  Protests relating to legitimate causes being hijacked by extreme political sects is a constant problem in Ireland.


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## EmmDee (8 Mar 2021)

tomdublin said:


> Or the QAnon/"RTE eats babies"-types choose to hang out with their more sensible counterparts.   Organizers of public protests can't control who's attending.  Protests relating to legitimate causes being hijacked by extreme political sects is a constant problem in Ireland.



The protest was organised by "Riseup Eireann" - an outfit which had been pushing RT conspiracy memes before their account was taken down. It included posts on "Elite Pedophiles", "Criminal Government Pharma Cartel", "Corrupt Media and Dark Agenda" etc. A number of the people associated with it were also involved with the Irish Yellow Vests, Irish Freedon Party and National Front Ireland - as well as part of the G'OD & Waters activities.

So the nutters didn't just turn up and hang out with their more sensible counterparts. These were the people organising it


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## time to plan (8 Mar 2021)

EmmDee said:


> The protest was organised by "Riseup Eireann" - an outfit which had been pushing RT conspiracy memes before their account was taken down. It included posts on "Elite Pedophiles", "Criminal Government Pharma Cartel", "Corrupt Media and Dark Agenda" etc. A number of the people associated with it were also involved with the Irish Yellow Vests, Irish Freedon Party and National Front Ireland - as well as part of the G'OD & Waters activities.
> 
> So the nutters didn't just turn up and hang out with their more sensible counterparts. These were the people organising it


O'Doherty is filth, so no surprise to learn she is involved.


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## Purple (10 Mar 2021)

Ceist Beag said:


> Purple sometimes your "jokes" are absolutely disgusting and belong in the gutter. That is one of them.


I've said far worse than that!


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## seamus m (10 Mar 2021)

The normal thing would be to accept the high death ratio to cases .The sceptic in me  would ask why are there now loads of backdated deaths in the numbers as in only 14 of today's in march.Nothing to do with being a nutjob.


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## odyssey06 (11 Mar 2021)

seamus m said:


> The normal thing would be to accept the high death ratio to cases .The sceptic in me  would ask why are there now loads of backdated deaths in the numbers as in only 14 of today's in march.Nothing to do with being a nutjob


It can take up to 3 months for deaths to be registered and recorded, that's a bureaucratic aspect long predating before the pandemic and has been consistent all through it. RTE's Fergal Bowers breaks down the deaths by when they actually occurred so it's not as if the info is not in the public domain.
Just as there tends to be a drop in cases in early part of week (as doctors are closed over weekends) and a spike in middle of week as people referred for tests on mondays get their results.
People can read too much into things.


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## Purple (11 Mar 2021)

seamus m said:


> The normal thing would be to accept the high death ratio to cases .The sceptic in me  would ask why are there now loads of backdated deaths in the numbers as in only 14 of today's in march.Nothing to do with being a nutjob.


Yes, that's a good point. It's not even the numbers but the fact that a clear distinction between backdated deaths and current ones is not being made. The only figure we should be getting is the up to date deaths. Adding in numbers from last month tells us nothing  about trends.


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## Purple (11 Mar 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> RTE's Fergal Bowers breaks down the deaths by when they actually occurred so it's not as if the info is not in the public domain.
> Just as there tends to be a drop in cases in early part of week (as doctors are closed over weekends) and a spike in middle of week as people referred for tests on mondays get their results.
> People can read too much into things.


The notification RTE and the Irish Times sends to my phone just gives the headline number. The backdated deaths should not be included in that number.


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## time to plan (11 Mar 2021)

seamus m said:


> The normal thing would be to accept the high death ratio to cases .The sceptic in me  would ask why are there now loads of backdated deaths in the numbers as in only 14 of today's in march.Nothing to do with being a nutjob.


Deaths are a lagging indicator. Cases are a leading indicator. Hospital inpatient and ICU admissions, inpatient numbers and discharges are probably the most relevant timely indicator.


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## seamus m (11 Mar 2021)

The point being with so many of our vunerable vaccinated and the numbers dropping I'd expect also to go back to very little deaths certainly not to be told about January ones in march .The figures don't really stack up


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## odyssey06 (11 Mar 2021)

seamus m said:


> The point being with so many of our vunerable vaccinated and the numbers dropping I'd expect also to go back to very little deaths certainly not to be told about January ones in march .The figures don't really stack up



It's common knowledge at this stage that there is a lag in reporting of deaths.
Your posts show that you are aware of this, and while it is not the headline figure - it is detailed in reporting of the deaths when they occurred by major media outlets.
Therefore, I don't see how you can say the figures don't stack up.
I get that people have preference for the figures to be reported differently, and maybe it should - but nobody is attempting to pull the wool over anybody's eyes.


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## Leo (11 Mar 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> It's common knowledge at this stage that there is a lag in reporting of deaths.



Exactly, if they chose not to report the deaths from previous weeks or months as they become aware of them they'd be accused of a cover up.


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## time to plan (11 Mar 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> It's common knowledge at this stage that there is a lag in reporting of deaths.
> Your posts show that you are aware of this, and while it is not the headline figure - it is detailed in reporting of the deaths when they occurred by major media outlets.
> Therefore, I don't see how you can say the figures don't stack up.
> I get that people have preference for the figures to be reported differently, and maybe it should - but nobody is attempting to pull the wool over anybody's eyes.


Agreed. When RTE report the deaths, they actually say: x many from January, y many from February, z many from March. It is simply the truth, reported accurately and with an appropriate level of detail.


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## Purple (11 Mar 2021)

time to plan said:


> Agreed. When RTE report the deaths, they actually say: x many from January, y many from February, z many from March. It is simply the truth, reported accurately and with an appropriate level of detail.


It's not the headline though. The last notification I received from RTE yesterday evening was _"Covid-19: Dept confirms 47 further deaths, 631 new cases and the number of people in ICU down three to 92"_


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## time to plan (11 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> It's not the headline though. The last notification I received from RTE yesterday evening was _"Covid-19: Dept confirms 47 further deaths, 631 new cases and the number of people in ICU down three to 92"_


Headlines are like that.


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## Paul O Mahoney (11 Mar 2021)

I think the UK report deaths, cases and vaccines etc at the time of the data is reported to the central database. So if something is missed it doesn't get " backdated " and reported as if it happened in the last 24hrs

So, if 100 deaths were from last week they'd be included in this week's numbers, and the figures reported on the BBC etc but they also give the 7 day moving average which I would like to see here.

But ultimately the deaths are the deaths whenever they occurred. 

Having said that ,does anyone know why death reporting is so slow? I mean we normally have people in the ground/furnace in 3 days.


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## odyssey06 (11 Mar 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Having said that ,does anyone know why death reporting is so slow? I mean we normally have people in the ground/furnace in 3 days.


I think I read something re: families have up to 3 months to register the death.


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## seamus m (11 Mar 2021)

I wouldn't have thought family reporting deaths  would not  have been  the reason as department are surely telling family it is a covid related death  and not  the other way around.Also what I mean about the figures not stacking up is why are death figures still so high when our most vunerable should be nearly all vaccinated by now and that the case  figures are so low our daily deaths should also be back where they were last year .It's the moving around of deaths and cases which also gives hints of cover up.  Personally I'm keeping eye or trying to on deaths in relation to case numbers and vaccinated numbers and it's so far so bad


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## Paul O Mahoney (11 Mar 2021)

seamus m said:


> I wouldn't have thought family reporting deaths  would not  have been  the reason as department are surely telling family it is a covid related death  and not  the other way around.Also what I mean about the figures not stacking up is why are death figures still so high when our most vunerable should be nearly all vaccinated by now and that the case  figures are so low our daily deaths should also be back where they were last year .It's the moving around of deaths and cases which also gives hints of cover up.  Personally I'm keeping eye or trying to on deaths in relation to case numbers and vaccinated numbers and it's so far so bad


Well if you have Covid you won't be vaccinated and when you are vaccinated you still won't be protected for quite a while and could still get covid.

I would find it difficult to accept that there is " moving around of deaths or cases" and for relations being told what should be written on the death certificate is entering conspiracy territory as there is no evidence to support the claim. 

The data won't always be perfect or timely but what would be the gain to the government or anybody else to be manipulating any figures?


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## odyssey06 (11 Mar 2021)

seamus m said:


> I wouldn't have thought family reporting deaths  would not  have been  the reason as department are surely telling family it is a covid related death  and not  the other way around.Also what I mean about the figures not stacking up is why are death figures still so high when our most vunerable should be nearly all vaccinated by now and that the case  figures are so low our daily deaths should also be back where they were last year .It's the moving around of deaths and cases which also gives hints of cover up.  Personally I'm keeping eye or trying to on deaths in relation to case numbers and vaccinated numbers and it's so far so bad


By the same token that means the deaths for e.g. December at the time were 'lower' than they actually were, so what possible agenda could be served by any deliberate 'moving around'? There was no double reporting, it's just a timing thing.
To suggest a cover up is simply absurd.
If anything, the cover up would be hiding deaths by not reporting them because they weren't reported promptly.


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## time to plan (11 Mar 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> By the same token that means the deaths for e.g. December at the time were 'lower' than they actually were, so what possible agenda could be served by any deliberate 'moving around'? There was no double reporting, it's just a timing thing.
> To suggest a cover up is simply absurd.
> If anything, the cover up would be hiding deaths by not reporting them because they weren't reported promptly.


It's a weird kind of cover up when the detail is readily available for anyone who can be bothered to read past the headline.


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## Purple (11 Mar 2021)

time to plan said:


> It's a weird kind of cover up when the detail is readily available for anyone who can be bothered to read past the headline.


The people who get stirred up by things generally don't read past the headlines.


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## Leo (11 Mar 2021)

seamus m said:


> I wouldn't have thought family reporting deaths  would not  have been  the reason as department are surely telling family it is a covid related death  and not  the other way around.Also what I mean about the figures not stacking up is why are death figures still so high when our most vunerable should be nearly all vaccinated by now and that the case  figures are so low our daily deaths should also be back where they were last year .It's the moving around of deaths and cases which also gives hints of cover up.  Personally I'm keeping eye or trying to on deaths in relation to case numbers and vaccinated numbers and it's so far so bad



I read a report a while back that stated about 40% of Covid deaths here are occurring outside of hospitals. Many of those will be in nursing homes (public and private), so with the system allowing 3 months for submission of notifications, the department simply can't know what they don't know.

The age range for deaths notified yesterday was 60 - 95 years. It'll be a while before all that group will be fully vaccinated.


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## Purple (12 Mar 2021)

Leo said:


> I read a report a while back that stated about 40% of Covid deaths here are occurring outside of hospitals. Many of those will be in nursing homes (public and private), so with the system allowing 3 months for submission of notifications, the department simply can't know what they don't know.


That doesn't say much for the ability of Public Health Ireland or any other body to track outbreaks from an epidemiological perspective though, does it? I would have thought that deaths due to a transmissible disease would haver to be reported. It's not like granny taking a neck-first tumble down the stairs.


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## time to plan (12 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> That doesn't say much for the ability of Public Health Ireland or any other body to track outbreaks from an epidemiological perspective though, does it? I would have thought that deaths due to a transmissible disease would haver to be reported. It's not like granny taking a neck-first tumble down the stairs.


Outbreaks from an epidemiological perspective are not tracked by identifying deaths, but by identifying cases.


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## Purple (12 Mar 2021)

time to plan said:


> Outbreaks from an epidemiological perspective are not tracked by identifying deaths, but by identifying cases.


Fair point.


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## Leo (12 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> That doesn't say much for the ability of Public Health Ireland or any other body to track outbreaks from an epidemiological perspective though, does it? I would have thought that deaths due to a transmissible disease would haver to be reported. It's not like granny taking a neck-first tumble down the stairs.



True, the fact that the whole death reporting system wasn't overhauled over the past 12 months is a testament to inefficient bureaucracy.


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