# Survey: Do arguments for/against the existence of God influence you?



## horusd (7 May 2011)

I'm doing a piece of academic research and want to test a theory. The theory is that rational arguments against the existence of God from Dawkins or whoever aren't pesuasive to believers, *and *religious arguments for His existence don't persuade atheists. *I am not trying to persuade anyone either way*, just interested in your opinions on the theory.

As one small example, let's take The Argument from Evil by some atheists. It goes like this:

1. Evil exists and is everywhere. Both human or moral evil and natural evil, (like disasters etc).

2. Theists claim God exists, created the world, and is perfectly good, all-knowing and all-powerful.

3. Thus (atheists claim) either God doesn't exist, or isn't perfect,all-knowing, all powerful etc.

Despite the logic of the argument (and BTW there are good logical counter-arguments) I don't think these type of arguments convince people who believe in God that their belief is wrong, they live with the ambiguity and mystery quite well imo. What do you think? And if you can, say why you think as you do.


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## ccbkd (7 May 2011)

Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others — for example Spinoza and Einstein — considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws


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## DrMoriarty (7 May 2011)

Careful now.


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## truthseeker (7 May 2011)

The thing that made me not believe in God (to begin with) was the realisation one day when I was very young, that it was only a matter of luck that I was a Catholic as opposed to being Islamic, Buddhist, Protestant, Jewish or any other religion. I pondered this for a while and thought if there WAS a God - surely he/she would make us all have the same belief system, and cut down on hatred and wars over religious beliefs.

Then I witnessed first hand the cruelty of members of the Catholic clergy - in a religious orders school. My parents, my father in particular as he was born left handed, both had nasty stories of cruelty in religious orders schools too (god knows (pardon the pun) why they sent me to one after what they experienced!!).

So that kind of got me questioning the whole papal infallibility thing, if an ordinary member of the clergy could be a monster - why couldnt the Pope?

Then I began to think about the idea of this supernatural being hanging around, heaven and hell, etc..., all the while knowing that different religions had different ideas on this stuff. And I decided it just COULDNT be true. Because if what the Buddhists believe isnt true (from another religions perspective), then what the Catholics believe isnt true from anyone elses perspective. So why would what anyone believes be true?

Many years later I began to read Dawkins and Hitchens and suddenly here were these people who were thinking along the same lines as me but presenting really nice academic arguments in a way in which I hadnt even thought about.

Although I do see a certain irony in Dawkins, in that he 'preaches' atheism in the same manner a priest preaches the word of God - ok so the difference is he (thinks) he is right, but so does the priest think HE is right!! So I dont think that he can ever truly convert someone who has faith as he is approaching someone who feels just as strongly as him but on the other side of the fence. And faith isnt rational or logical so its unlikely a rational or logical argument will change their minds.


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## DGOBS (8 May 2011)

Religion takes young children (from as soon as they can talk) and begins to brainwash them, preventing the majority of people from rationally questioning the existence of "God" without guilt. 

Hence I believe is why you get such a negative (and sometimes violent) reaction to such a conversation


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## z107 (8 May 2011)

It might be a good idea to take religion out of the equation.
I'm not religious, but I believe in the existence of God. I do not believe in an afterlife.

To answer your question, yes arguments for/against the existence of God do influence me.


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## One (9 May 2011)

umop3p!sdn said:


> To answer your question, yes arguments for/against the existence of God do influence me.


 
Me too. I am very interested in really well thought out arguments on this topic and I could be swayed. I don't agree with everything that Richard Dawkins says but he is a very gifted writer, and I found his book was excellent.


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## TarfHead (9 May 2011)

To answer your question ..

No - arguments for/against the existence of God do not influence me.


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## BillK (9 May 2011)

tarfhead said:


> to answer your question ..
> 
> No - arguments for/against the existence of god do not influence me.


 
+1


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## Oscaresque (9 May 2011)

BillK said:


> +1



Interesting paper to write.

In school I remember one of the teachers talking about the concept of blind faith, which I guess I had, up until I hadn't if that makes sense. Most of my friends are Catholic and believers. We all absolutely respect each others beliefs, so don't bother with this conversation much, when we do nothing I could say would change their minds or vise versa. I understand that some people, Catholic or otherwise, think the concept of blind faith is a negative one. I don't actually. I think there must be something very comforting about not needing to hear any arguments for or against the existence of God just to believe in him yourself and be comfortable with that. 

When a mutual friend recently starting asking how in the knowledge of the church crisis recently could they believe, I found it quite nice to hear one girl explain where her belief comes from and how it was deeper then logical arguments about abuse and evil in men.

Still though, I might have been impressed, maybe even moved by her belief - I just don't have it.


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## Seagull (10 May 2011)

You probably want to add a poll to the thread.

I suspect most people aren't swayed by arguments and logic. You either believe or you don't, and you're unlikely to change your position. I think a lot of people probably start out kind of believing as they go through Sunday school and church as children, and then reach a point where they are old enough to make their own decisions, and move towards agnosticism/atheism.


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## shnaek (10 May 2011)

Seagull said:


> I think a lot of people probably start out kind of believing as they go through Sunday school and church as children, and then reach a point where they are old enough to make their own decisions, and move towards agnosticism/atheism.


True, and then if they get sick, or as they arrive at old age, their faith makes a sudden recovery!


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## truthseeker (10 May 2011)

shnaek said:


> True, and then if they get sick, or as they arrive at old age, their faith makes a sudden recovery!


 
Pascals Wager - its in your interests to make a conversion towards the end


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## horusd (11 May 2011)

Seagull said:


> *You probably want to add a poll to the thread.*
> 
> I suspect most people aren't swayed by arguments and logic. *You either believe or you don't, and you're unlikely to change your position.* I think a lot of people probably start out kind of believing as they go through Sunday school and church as children, and then reach a point where they are old enough to make their own decisions, and move towards agnosticism/atheism.


 

Don't know how to add poll, so I'll look it up or someone might tell me!  My sense of it is that rational arguments for atheism  ignore the fact that we are not just rational beings, we are more than our reason. "The heart has it's own reasons" as Paschal said.  

And, arguments from religion seem to ignore our reason, or fail to convince using rational arguments. For example, an argument from design as evidence of God:

1. The universe exhibits order and apparent purposefulness.
2. The universe appears to be "fine tuned" for life and order.
3. God is the best  and maybe only explanation for this.
4. Therefore God exists.

But whilst the universe does exhibit order (in part) we cannot neccessarily make the leap from that to proof of a God.


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## Firefly (11 May 2011)

horusd said:


> But whilst the universe does exhibit order (in part) we cannot neccessarily make the leap from that to proof of a God.



Who put the universe there then?


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## horusd (11 May 2011)

Firefly said:


> Who put the universe there then?


 


Well, the universe :

1. May have caused itself.

2. Not everything needs a cause (quantum physics)

3. If you accept that God caused it, then what caused God?

4. We have no analogy to compare the universe to. We only know one universe, so comparisons to other "caused things" aren't analgous.

5. Why must it have been a single God, not a committee of Gods, or a God who has since died?

6. The universe exhibits no morality per se. Yet God is is supposedly a moral perfect being, how is this possible?


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## Firefly (11 May 2011)

horusd said:


> Well, the universe :
> 
> 1. May have caused itself.
> 
> ...




All quite true. I remembering asking my Dad some similiar questions as a child...what happens when we reach the end of space...is there a wall...if so what's on the other side? How far away is the furthest star...what's beyond that? I also remember what my Dad said.....we (as humans) are incapable of understanding/working this out and there must be a greater force out there who can. For the record I believe in God. There are multiple religions out there and even though they differ wildly how the pray they all IMO pray to the same God.


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## PetrolHead (11 May 2011)

My stance is this...

I don't believe in God but I believe in religions.


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## JP1234 (12 May 2011)

When I was younger I went through a very religious stage. My parents separated when I was 8/9 and I used to go into the church next to school each evening and pray they would get back together. You could hear the priests singing in another room and for a while I actually thought it was angels!!

I don't believe in the existence of a single God or creationism and that is influenced by science. However, I do have a belief in some binding values in humans that some might call faith.  I rarely go to Mass but I often go and sit in a church just to reflect.


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