# Argument with my boss regading my sick days



## Marinchik (4 Apr 2007)

Hi there,

A month ago a had a argument with my boss about my sick days. At that time i have been working for him for 7 month and took out 5 sick days, i didn't bring him doctors note, but he never actually ask for one. But after last time he gave out to me. I was entitled to week off now but i didn't take it just to cover up for my sick days, which he was paying for. But now i think maybe i should actually take that week? When i started working i here he actually never told me what will be the conditions, so i don't know will i be right or wrong taking out my hols?

Thanks a mill,


----------



## bacchus (4 Apr 2007)

What does it say in your contract of employment regarding sick days with and without doctor cert?

For instance, in my contract, i think it is stated that i can "take" 2 sick days per year without doctors cert. After that, the employer is not obliged to pay me for any additional unjustified sick days
It is different for sick days with doctor cert.


----------



## monkeyboy (4 Apr 2007)

5 sick days in 7 months is quite a lot in Private sector. Employers generally let a few slide but at a certain point ( and for you that seems to be 5 ) they may start to get cranky and deservedly so.

You should have a doctors letter for any 3 sick days in a row.

If any of them were due to beer you should have no grievance either way!!

Having said all that you cannot be made swap holidays for sick days. Just dont expect any favours going forward now.....


----------



## Squonk (4 Apr 2007)

In my company my boss doesn't get my sick note, the HR department does.


----------



## gentle123 (4 Apr 2007)

were you sick for 5 days in a row or was it a day here and there?


----------



## ClubMan (4 Apr 2007)

monkeyboy said:


> If any of them were due to beer you should have no grievance either way!!


What has this speculation got to do with the original query?!


----------



## ClubMan (4 Apr 2007)

Marinchik said:


> When i started working i here he actually never told me what will be the conditions, so i don't know will i be right or wrong taking out my hols?


If you mean that you never got a written contract/job description then the company is at fault here. 


> The Terms of Employment (Information) Acts 1994 and 2001 provide that an employer is obliged to provide an employee with a written statement of terms of employment within the first two months of the commencement of employment.


----------



## Marinchik (4 Apr 2007)

Thanks for replies,

I never signed any contract, thats why i'm saying i don't know what am i entitled to. In previous job i had a 10 sick days a year without docs cert. First i took 2 days then 2 days and then another 1 day, i didn't take them in a row. I'm a broker assistant. He also told me to pay for my courses, ut never did, i also never saw my commisions even he promissed them too. Well thats actually the reasons i'm quitting now.

And Monkeyboy - i was genuine sick, not cos of hangover or anything.

Thanks,


----------



## ClubMan (4 Apr 2007)

OK - bear in mind that there is no statutory entitlement to paid sick leave and you really need to get a clear explanation of the official company policy on sick leave/days, certification etc. If you are quitting then this may be academic but it might be useful advice for the future. Always get a written contract and/or copy of any relevant company policies.


----------



## Marinchik (4 Apr 2007)

The problem is i don't think he would have any company rules or anything its a small business only 2 emloyees. And i don't think he cares about contracts. Well its actually my fault too cos i should've ask for it in the begining. Never tought about it, but i will in future.

Thanks Clubman,


----------



## KalEl (4 Apr 2007)

Marinchik said:


> In previous job i had a 10 sick days a year without docs cert. First i took 2 days then 2 days and then another 1 day, i didn't take them in a row.


 
Apologies if you were genuinely sick but for the sake of your career you really need to examine this. Don't think I'm having a go at you because I'm not but you're missing a ridiculous amount of work.
10 days the last time, 7 this year...any employer would frown upon this. This is not normal. Again if you've had legitimate problems I apologise but if you're not just sucking it up and going to work when you have headcolds etc then you are harming your career.


----------



## monkeyboy (4 Apr 2007)

Marinchik said:


> Thanks for replies,
> 
> I never signed any contract, thats why i'm saying i don't know what am i entitled to. In previous job i had a 10 sick days a year without docs cert. First i took 2 days then 2 days and then another 1 day, i didn't take them in a row. I'm a broker assistant. He also told me to pay for my courses, ut never did, i also never saw my commisions even he promissed them too. Well thats actually the reasons i'm quitting now.
> 
> ...




beer comment was a laugh!

Any way if he genuinely owes you commission photo copy all the relevant info before you quit and contact the Labour Relations Commission.

I succesfully got a large commission settlement for a friend thro the LRC that was refused to be paid.


----------



## Bubbly Scot (4 Apr 2007)

My husband used to work for a company that hauled him over the coals for taking three days off sick at different times. Apparently their grievance was he didn't produce a doctors note. He argued that it wasn't anything to go to the doctors FOR but they actually told him it would have been better to take three days off with a doctors note than one day off without.

Mind you, we'd just moved from the UK where a days sickness wasn't required to be signed off by a doctor, still not sure if it's required here...he solved the problem by resigning and becoming a contractor..now if he takes a day off the only person out of pocket is himself......and his agent!


----------



## Marinchik (4 Apr 2007)

KalEl if i would had only headcold, i would be working no problem. I don't want to miss any days of my work myself either, but sometimes you have to Plus my boss actually is a great man and it is pleasure to work with him,it just i recon he could be more organized towards employees, as i said its my fault i didn't request a contract, so i can't really now complain what i'm entitled to or not.   
Well the fact i'm not taking my holidays makes for them sick days up, i think.
Plus i would meet clients sometimes outside working hours and weekends, didn't get paid for that, i'm not complaining but if you look at it in general i'm not that bad


----------



## ClubMan (4 Apr 2007)

KalEl said:


> 10 days the last time, 7 this year...any employer would frown upon this. This is not normal.





Towger said:


> In the private sector it is not. I have don't think I have missed 7 days in 10 years.


Not sure what is "normal" here at all . Everybody's health is different. Well done to all those who manage not to miss "too many" days through illness. Not all of us are in the same boat though so don't assume that this is something that is under our control!


----------



## MsGinger (5 Apr 2007)

Marinchik said:


> as i said its my fault i didn't request a contract, so i can't really now complain what i'm entitled to or not.
> Well the fact i'm not taking my holidays makes for them sick days up, i think.


 It's up to the employer to provide a written contract within 2 months of an employee commencing work - an employee should not have to ask for this.


----------



## Erasure (5 Apr 2007)

Just in relation to going to work with headcolds etc would it not be better to stay off for a day instead of giving your cold to 100 othes who then in turn have to struggle to work on public transport etc feeling really under the weather.  It annoys me when collegues sit sneezing and coughing all over the place and spreading germs.


----------



## bacchus (5 Apr 2007)

KalEl said:


> Don't think I'm having a go at you because I'm not but you're missing a ridiculous amount of work.
> 10 days the last time, 7 this year...any employer would frown upon this.


 
You are a bit fast off the starting block here...OP never stated taking 17 sick days... Read the thread.


----------



## Squonk (5 Apr 2007)

Sammie110 said:


> Just in relation to going to work with headcolds etc would it not be better to stay off for a day instead of giving your cold to 100 othes who then in turn have to struggle to work on public transport etc feeling really under the weather.  It annoys me when collegues sit sneezing and coughing all over the place and spreading germs.


FYI This is called "Presenteeism" and is becoming a bigger problem to companies than absenteeism for the reasons you allude to.


----------



## Erasure (5 Apr 2007)

```
FYI This is called "Presenteeism" and is becoming a bigger problem to companies than absenteeism for the reasons you allude to.
```
 
THis is interesting - has there been some research into it?


----------



## Squonk (5 Apr 2007)

Sammie110 said:


> ```
> FYI This is called "Presenteeism" and is becoming a bigger problem to companies than absenteeism for the reasons you allude to.
> ```
> 
> THis is interesting - has there been some research into it?


 see  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presenteeism


----------



## KalEl (5 Apr 2007)

bacchus said:


> You are a bit fast off the starting block here...OP never stated taking 17 sick days... Read the thread.


 
Yeah, it was 5 in 7 months not the other way round.
OK, 15 instead of 17.

I think presenteeism is more to do with staff being hungover than sick.
Can't say I agree with the poster moaning about people working through headcolds. Taking a day off work when you've a headcold is embarrassing and shows a poor work ethic. Also coughing and sneezing all over the place is just really bad manners.


----------



## Purple (5 Apr 2007)

KalEl said:


> I think presenteeism is more to do with staff being hungover than sick.
> Can't say I agree with the poster moaning about people working through headcolds. Taking a day off work when you've a headcold is embarrassing and shows a poor work ethic. Also coughing and sneezing all over the place is just really bad manners.


 I agree. I am no healthier than the next guy and I have missed 6 days in the last 17 years due to illness.


----------



## Squonk (5 Apr 2007)

KalEl said:


> Also coughing and sneezing all over the place is just really bad manners.


 When you have a bad cold you have no choice but to caugh and sneeze. It's the body's way of ejecting germs. It's nothing about manners. It's these germs that can infect others in your job.


----------



## KalEl (5 Apr 2007)

Squonk said:


> When you have a bad cold you have no choice but to caugh and sneeze. It's the body's way of ejecting germs. It's nothing about manners. It's these germs that can infect others in your job.


 
Eh...it's bad manners not to cover your nose and mouth with a handkerchief/tissue!


----------



## Erasure (5 Apr 2007)

If someone who has a cold/flu uses your phone or sneezes and covers their nose/mouth then there are germs on their hands and they could be touching anything from your mouse/keyboard/desk etc even down to door handles - i know it sounds silly but in reality germs spread far quicker than you realise. One day at home until you are not contagious anymore never killed anyone.


----------



## KalEl (5 Apr 2007)

Sammie110 said:


> If someone who has a cold/flu uses your phone or sneezes and covers their nose/mouth then there are germs on their hands and they could be touching anything from your mouse/keyboard/desk etc even down to door handles - i know it sounds silly but in reality germs spread far quicker than you realise. One day at home until you are not contagious anymore never killed anyone.


 
Hmmm...sounds like rationalising to me.
"I'll skive off when I'm still fit to work for the good of my colleagues"
Sorry, I don't buy it. It's laziness and a poor work ethic.
Obviously if someone is genuinely in a bad way that's different.


----------



## Blinder (6 Apr 2007)

KalEl said:


> Yeah, it was 5 in 7 months not the other way round.
> OK, 15 instead of 17.



The way I read it was that the OP could take 10 sicks days a year in a previous job, without having to present a doctors cert
Not that they did take 10 sick days.

Going back to the original question, I think if the employer had an issue with the sick days he should have said so at the time, especially when there was no contract in place.


----------



## Erasure (7 Apr 2007)

Obviously "work ethics" differ from person to person, i know if any of my staff have colds i would rather they didn't spread it around but each to their own i suppose!


----------



## Johnny1 (8 Apr 2007)

How many people take days off work with headcolds as an excuse for time off?


----------



## Trafford (10 Apr 2007)

KalEl said:


> Hmmm...sounds like rationalising to me.
> "I'll skive off when I'm still fit to work for the good of my colleagues"
> Sorry, I don't buy it. It's laziness and a poor work ethic.
> Obviously if someone is genuinely in a bad way that's different.


 
Geez, I'd hate to work for you. I work long and hard and under a lot of stress, and I am human too so illness strikes me and I choose to stay at home and beat it. 

I also detest colleagues coming in like martyrs, spreading their diseases and expecting a pat on the back for it. I see it all around me. I have no qualms about doing my recovery at home rather than sit in here and moan about how sick I am, in the hope people will think I am some sort of saint. Makes me sick to be honest (no pun intended!).


----------



## KalEl (10 Apr 2007)

My philosophy is if you're fit to work you work...if you're not you don't.
I don't think that's particularly extreme or unfair.


----------



## Trafford (10 Apr 2007)

KalEl said:


> My philosophy is if you're fit to work you work...if you're not you don't.
> I don't think that's particularly extreme or unfair.


 
Usually I would be fit to work if it was just a matter of turning on the pc and doing the job. The problem is the getting up early, heading out for the commute and feeling I've a day's work done before I even start working all while not feeling 100%. This whole routine is a struggle while feeling any way sick, so I count that then as being unfit to go to work, but regret that it means missing a days work. Still, I've often requested a laptop so I can work from home but the company is not interested (I live over 50 miles from the office).


----------



## ragazza (10 Apr 2007)

I also hate when people come in like martyrs and cough all over you. They aren't so indispensible that the company will go under if they take one day off.
My dad is very proud of the fact that in his 40 year career, he never took a sick day. I dont think that's something to be particularly proud of - I'm sure he did himself and his colleagues more damage by going to work some of those days.
(Having said that, I rarely take sick days even when I feel rotton, since I dont want to look like a malingerer).


----------



## Purple (10 Apr 2007)

Trafford said:


> Usually I would be fit to work if it was just a matter of turning on the pc and doing the job. The problem is the getting up early, heading out for the commute and feeling I've a day's work done before I even start working all while not feeling 100%. This whole routine is a struggle while feeling any way sick, so I count that then as being unfit to go to work, but regret that it means missing a days work. Still, I've often requested a laptop so I can work from home but the company is not interested (I live over 50 miles from the office).


 Where you choose to live is your own business, it should not be an excuse for taking days off work. The fact that your employer does not allow you to work from home is also  irrelevant in this context.  



ragazza said:


> I also hate when people come in like martyrs and cough all over you. They aren't so indispensible that the company will go under if they take one day off.


 I agree, they should use a tissue as was suggested above. The company may not go under but it can effect others who rely on you for information and/or instruction if you don't turn up. It is also unfair to expect co-workers to carry someone who doesn't come in when they feel no worse that they many others who would go to work. 



ragazza said:


> My dad is very proud of the fact that in his 40 year career, he never took a sick day. I dont think that's something to be particularly proud of - I'm sure he did himself and his colleagues more damage by going to work some of those days. (Having said that, I rarely take sick days even when I feel rotton, since I dont want to look like a malingerer).


 So you accept that those who habitually take more sick days than usual are perceived as malingerers? Why do you think that is?


----------



## KalEl (10 Apr 2007)

ragazza said:


> I also hate when people come in like martyrs and cough all over you. They aren't so indispensible that the company will go under if they take one day off.
> My dad is very proud of the fact that in his 40 year career, he never took a sick day. I dont think that's something to be particularly proud of - I'm sure he did himself and his colleagues more damage by going to work some of those days.
> (Having said that, I rarely take sick days even when I feel rotton, since I dont want to look like a malingerer).


 
I think if it comes down to it a boss will always favour the employee who soldiers on rather than the person who's out sick at the drop of a hat.
I agree that carrying on like a martyr is ridiculous and as I said earlier only people with no manners cough all over others.


----------



## BIG (10 Apr 2007)

KalEl said:


> Apologies if you were genuinely sick but for the sake of your career you really need to examine this. Don't think I'm having a go at you because I'm not but you're missing a ridiculous amount of work.
> 10 days the last time, 7 this year...any employer would frown upon this. This is not normal. Again if you've had legitimate problems I apologise but if you're not just sucking it up and going to work when you have headcolds etc then you are harming your career.


 
Absenteism rates of 1-5 % are typical in the private sector (higher in public sector). 2% (based on 48weeks x 5 days) = 2.4-12days per year on average so 7-10 days per is not uncommon.


----------



## Purple (10 Apr 2007)

BIG said:


> Absenteism rates of 1-5 % are typical in the private sector (higher in public sector). 2% (based on 48weeks x 5 days) = 2.4-12days per year on average so 7-10 days per is not uncommon.


 Does this figure include those out on long-term sick leave? What's the average for non-certified days off?


----------



## deem (10 Apr 2007)

I actually think if your employer paid you for sick days and now your are leaving, you should be paid your holidays, if your employer was not happy about you taking sick days uncertified he should not have paid you for them at the time.


----------



## buzybee (10 Apr 2007)

I find that I have to stay out sick for a day or two when I have a heavy cold.  Once I came in to work while I was sick, and it took me about 3 wks to shake off the tiredness.  

Coming in to work when you are very sick is a false economy.  You are probably so weak, you can't work at a reasonable speed.  If you do work, you could make mistakes 'due to the foggy head feeling'.  Also, you will probably feel so weak for a few weeks afterwards, and will continue to work at a slower pace, therefore not accomplishing as much.

I usually take 2 or 3 sick days a year due to heavy colds/flu. I try to take only one day with a sickness.  However if my head feels very foggy, I don't trust myself doing accounts, so I stay out.

I probably would not take a sick day, if I had a shorter working day and less demanding work to do.  Because work is so busy, it is tiring even on a normal day, and it is exhausting when I am sick.  I must go at a fast pace to get all the work done.

I don't get paid for sick days, so it is in my own interest to take minimum sick days, and to get better quickly.

I really hate when other people take sick days for hangovers etc.  It gives everyone a bad name.  Even though I only take sick days when I am genuinely sick, I still feel guilty, and I return to work before I feel 100%.


----------



## Complainer (22 Apr 2010)

Squonk said:


> FYI This is called "Presenteeism" and is becoming a bigger problem to companies than absenteeism for the reasons you allude to.





Erasure said:


> ```
> FYI This is called "Presenteeism" and is becoming a bigger problem to companies than absenteeism for the reasons you allude to.
> ```
> THis is interesting - has there been some research into it?


Just came across some interesting recent UK research into this issue;

http://www.shponline.co.uk/article.asp?pagename=news&article_id=9939

It clearly shows the dangers from having sick people around a workplace.


----------



## Purple (23 Apr 2010)

and you thought of a three year old thread, you've some memory Complainer!


----------

