# Are utility companies deliberately issuing underestimated meter readings?



## Grizzly (18 Mar 2022)

I was switching my Gas to Electric Ireland today.  I noticed that my previous supplier FloGas had issued me with an estimated bill for my last bill.

This estimate was way under the amount of gas used.  Why issue me with an estimated bill that is way under the usage?  If they had issued a bill that was nearer my actual usage I would have paid a lower price based on the introductory offer plan that I had subscribed to.  If there is a price increase soon then I will pay more for the units not charged for in my last bill.

I was also coming up to the expiry date of my contract, when my special offer ends and I go back on their standard rates.  So in theory all the units that I should have been charged at the lower rate in my last bill will now be included in my next bill and charged at the much higher standard rate.


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## jpd (18 Mar 2022)

You can always read the meter and then submit the reading. That way the estimates will be closer to your actual use


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## Sue Ellen (18 Mar 2022)

Hi Grizzly,

I have a vague recollection that this topic was covered on AAM previously so if you have a root through  you might find the discussion.

Sooner the better you get your Smart meter and you won't have to bother with readings.


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## jpd (18 Mar 2022)

Smart meters are for electricity - I don't think the gas meters are Smart just yet


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## Paul O Mahoney (18 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> Smart meters are for electricity - I don't think the gas meters are Smart just yet.


Yep, simply can't understand why not.


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## jpd (18 Mar 2022)

Cost?


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## Grizzly (18 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> You can always read the meter and then submit the reading. That way the estimates will be closer to your actual use


I wonder how many people submit their meter readings every month/two months?   Maybe if we got an email prompt to remind us?


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## cloughy (18 Mar 2022)

Maybe if we got an email prompt to remind us? 

Energia send email to submit readings when due, all companies should do similiar, not that hard one would think,


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## jpd (18 Mar 2022)

Most people could just put a prompt into their smartphones to remind them

Honestly, it beggars belief that people are so annoyed about energy bills and yet can't be bothered to submit readings


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## Paul O Mahoney (19 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> Most people could just put a prompt into their smartphones to remind them
> 
> Honestly, it beggars belief that people are so annoyed about energy bills and yet can't be bothered to submit readings


I've been doing this since we got our first home 30 years ago and would pay a sum equal to the amount used in any given month excluding the vat ,never liked paying tax early. 

Its something I learned from my grandmother who lived until she was 97, we got gas Central Heating installed in her modest house in the early 90s, every week she'd go and get her pension and put £5 on the gas bill and £5 on electricity, if she couldn't do it an Aunt or cousin would. 

After she died the accounts were closed ,each one in credit which " was enough to pay for a nicer coffin" .

Obviously the utility companies have budget accounts but I personally prefer this method and it allows us to budget and manage our energy usage and understand our bills and react to price increases.


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## Paul O Mahoney (19 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> Cost?


Well the technology is there, having people trapse around the country taking actual readings isn't cost effective either.

And apparently Gas Networks Ireland sets the conversion factor for gas from M3 of gas to kWh " for every household meter at billing date". Which I find difficult to believe if those properties aren't connected digitally.

1 M3 of gas conversion rate to kWh is 10.55, look at a bill and its always over 11.3 and closer to 11.5 . Excuses like temp, type of gas etc are given for the fluctuations in this conversion rate, but I really don't accept those as our gas is either UK , very high methane or Corrib where a huge plant was built to clean out impurities, but we simply don't know from one month to another how the conversion factor is arrived at. It might be acceptable at 11.3/4/5 etc but customers only find out when the bill arrives. 

It would be a good exercise for people to use 10.55 conversion rate on their bills and see the difference on cost, vat, carbon tax...


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## Grizzly (19 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> Honestly, it beggars belief that people are so annoyed about energy bills and yet can't be bothered to submit readings


Do all companies have an option on their website to submit a meter reading or do you have to send an individual email each time?


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## Pinoy adventure (19 Mar 2022)

A few of the companies have apps where you can submit meter readings.
You can also ring the meter reading in


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## Cervelo (19 Mar 2022)

Grizzly said:


> Do all companies have an option on their website to submit a meter reading or do you have to send an individual email each time?


I know Airtricity, Energia and Bord Gais do
Airtricity you can submit on a monthly basis but the other two only let you submit a few days before your bill
They will all send you a reminder email a few days before your usage is calculated


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> Honestly, it beggars belief that people are so annoyed about energy bills and yet can't be bothered to submit readings



Very well put!


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## mathepac (19 Mar 2022)

IME with the energy companies, when prices are plateaued for a period, they over-estimate the bills in order to improve their short-term cash flow.

When prices are trending upwards as they are right now, they under-estimate bills in order to charge an increased price from an arbitrarily selected date i.e. the increased consumer price does not reflect the date their costs increased.

I always phone in an accurate meter reading to Electric Ireland, +353 1 852 9534, as soon as I get my estimated bill in order to keep them honest. I use Electric Ireland Customer Services number rather than ESB networks as it can take from 5/7 working days for them to pass the reading on, in which time the actual reading is no better than an estimated one.

ESB Networks send estimated meter readings to Electric Ireland. From the time of producing the estimated reading to a bill (electronic) arriving to me will take at least 12 elapsed days.

Why all these delays, particularly from a company whose side-line is running around the world charging other energy suppliers how to be efficient and effective? That's ESB International, just in case you didn't know.


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## SDMXTWO (21 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> You can always read the meter and then submit the reading. That way the estimates will be closer to your actual use


This happened to me last year, never happened before. Bill May/June was almost 200€ extra because no official reading was sent in due to covid. I now send in readings on the end of month but still get 'estimated' on bill. Many people did not know that the official reading stopped during covid.


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## SDMXTWO (21 Mar 2022)

jpd said:


> Most people could just put a prompt into their smartphones to remind them
> 
> Honestly, it beggars belief that people are so annoyed about energy bills and yet can't be bothered to submit readings


A lot of people think the official meter reader still comes. I did and got caught out.


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## Leo (22 Mar 2022)

Regardless of who your supplier is, you can also submit readings directly to ESB Networks. They provide usage details to the suppliers, so providing them with an updated reading every month or a week or so before your bill is due should see your provider use that data.


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## vandriver (22 Mar 2022)

You could submit a reading significantly _higher_ than it really is, and bag yourself a handy discount!


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## Des Pondent (22 Mar 2022)

Good thinking van driver .


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## llgon (22 Mar 2022)

vandriver said:


> You could submit a reading significantly _higher_ than it really is, and bag yourself a handy discount!



And what happens if the official meter reader calls round and discovers the fraud?


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## Paul O Mahoney (22 Mar 2022)

llgon said:


> And what happens if the official meter reader calls round and discovers the fraud?


Or Smart meters that are now being rolled out,  ours was installed on the 13th of January our bill was exactly what it said on the meter.
Gas as said still in the analog world.


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## vandriver (22 Mar 2022)

Calm down there lads,it was a bit of a joke.
Buuut....just got my gas bill today(estimated)and it's 140 units shy of the real reading,so I submitted an updated reading on www.gasmeterreading.ie


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## fayf (22 Mar 2022)

I mistakenly thought the gas smart meter we had installed last year, was actually going live. I have btw, no issue submitting readings, But then i discovered i was being undercharged, so i called Bord Gais, and they said that gas networks do the readings, and i think they said they are only obliged to do 1 physical reading per annum, as i was 6 months in, i have since submitted readings just before the billing date.

As to original question, i think they base the estimated readings on the information to hand. This has become trickier in recent years, as, if the customer is only with them for a year and moves on(eg myself), then they don’t have a long history of usage, as they don’t have the information. Peoples usage habits are in actual fact, very different, based on individual preferences, and BER rating of the house in the case of heating by gas.


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## elcato (23 Mar 2022)

llgon said:


> And what happens if the official meter reader calls round and discovers the fraud?


 Very easy to misread one digit out of 6 or 7. I'd love to see them 'prove' fraud here but I guess snowflakes melt.


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## llgon (23 Mar 2022)

elcato said:


> Very easy to misread one digit out of 6 or 7. I'd love to see them 'prove' fraud here but I guess snowflakes melt.


Not melting, just pointing out there's a risk. To make it worthwhile the discrepancy would need to be substantial and should be obvious once bill is received. As a moderator you appear to be encouraging such behaviour by insulting those who discourage it.


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## Cervelo (24 Mar 2022)

Do the gas provides not have systems in place to spot huge discrepancies ??
I know a couple of times when I was with Airtricity that two of my readings were rejected as been too low 
I found it odd at the time because I submit monthly readings and my reading is my usage
Maybe I made a mistake with a digit but at the time I maybe they have some sort of system that spots abnormal readings and corrects them


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## Bluefin (1 Apr 2022)

Can you refuse a smart meter upgrade from ESB?


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## cloughy (1 Apr 2022)

yes you can refuse smart meter, but then when they become mandatory or you want one in the future (maybe tariffs for non smart meter are hiked up) you may have to pay to get one installed.


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## jpd (1 Apr 2022)

Why would you refuse a Smart meter?
Are there any valid reasons?


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## Cervelo (1 Apr 2022)

jpd said:


> Why would you refuse a Smart meter?
> Are there any valid reasons?


I'm not sure this would be classed as a valid reason for refusing one but since I did the change over nothing Bluetooth or Ant+ will work
I had to move the Nest heatlink from the garage to inside the house because it kept disconnecting, working perfectly now
I can't use my Wahoo smart trainer in the garage because it won't connect properly but works fine elsewhere
My Bluetooth headphones disconnect from my phone inside the garage.....

But it's in now so it's something I'm just going to have to live with!!!


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## jpd (1 Apr 2022)

There could be many reasons why the wireless links in the garage stopped working - a wifi analyser should be able to diagnose the culprit (and, yes, it could be the smart meter)


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## Bluefin (1 Apr 2022)

Thanks for the replies.. 

The only reason why I would refuse a smart meter is that I can't run dishwashers or washing machines etc at night time because I have to run a complicated water filtration systems that need backwashing at night which uses salt that would be drawn into house if these devices where running. Éamon Ryan stated that smart metering tariffs would be compulsory due to the energy crisis.


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## mathepac (1 Apr 2022)

What's the energy & carbon cost of  manufacturing, distributing and installing one of these smart meters?  What's the energy & carbon cost of scrapping or otherwise disposing of the old, functional meters?  How many years of operation will it take to recover those costs using the new meters?  What will the annual energy & carbon saving be for one of the new meters over the old functional meters once the initial costs are recovered? Does Ryan know? Does anyone?


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## newirishman (3 Apr 2022)

Cervelo said:


> I'm not sure this would be classed as a valid reason for refusing one but since I did the change over nothing Bluetooth or Ant+ will work
> I had to move the Nest heatlink from the garage to inside the house because it kept disconnecting, working perfectly now
> I can't use my Wahoo smart trainer in the garage because it won't connect properly but works fine elsewhere
> My Bluetooth headphones disconnect from my phone inside the garage.....
> ...


Smart meters use the 900MHz (2G) band for transmission to the network, and mostly zigbee / Bluetooth (2.4GHz) for short range comms (which might even not be enabled yet). it Is unlikely that it causes these issues, but not impossible.
one easy test is to put a faraday cage around the smart meter (you can use aluminium foil) and see if this helps.
if the issues disappear, the meter seems to have an issue - complain to esb networks and get it replaced.


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## Leo (4 Apr 2022)

newirishman said:


> if the issues disappear, the meter seems to have an issue - complain to esb networks and get it replaced.


And failing that Comreg.


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