# War On Terror



## purple (18 May 2004)

Does anyone else find the whole idea of a "War on terror" with it's ill defined objectives, faceless enemies and open ended time frame has disturbing parallels with Orwell’s 1984?


----------



## Paul (18 May 2004)

I would worry much more about Bin Laden and his followers -  and their vision of how they want to make the world - than Orwells book.   Did you ever live in a Muslim country ?  Then imagine a world like this.


----------



## piggy (18 May 2004)

I find the whole thing disturbing Purple and have done since the start of it. So many people thought that after 911 the US would finally sit up and pay attention to their foreign policy. The so called War on Terror could have been over in a year with intelligent policies.
Unfortunately, there's a bunch of idiots running Washington, hell bent on destroying themselves and the rest of us. The War on Terror is spin spun out of control. The sad thing is that some people actually believe in it. I find it depressing that people look at terrorism without looking at the reasons behind it and for it.

This idea that Muslim countries are bad places is even more depressing. Let's democracise everything we don't understand eh? Very, very depressing stuff!


----------



## purple (18 May 2004)

*Re.Paul*

Yes I do worry more about Bin Laden and the whole fundamentalist Islamic movement but why should it be one or the other?
When people talk about the Middle East many of then put things in terms of America good, Islam bad or Islam good, America bad. Nothing is black and white. No one is all wrong or all right. Islam spreads half way around the world; it's not just some local cult. America does much good in the world (George W has done more than anyone else in the world to fight AIDS). Until we put things in context and see them as the complex issues that they are we will continue to miss the long term implications of what happens in the here and now.


----------



## daltonr (18 May 2004)

> The so called War on Terror could have been over in a year with intelligent policies.



I wouldn't agree with that.  I presume you're suggesting that If America had been less isolationist, and if they'd been more even handed in the Middle East conflict that it would have removed the causes of terrorism.

That's only partly true, and even if it was true, America was never going to radically change it's pro-Israel stance in response to 9/11, nor were they going to pull troops out of the Saudi Arabia or anywhere else in the region.

The other reason America couldn't have diffused terrorism is that at least some of it is being carried out by complete nutters with no particular reason for hating America, other than the fact that it symbolises everything they are not.

Of course that's also the very reason why a war on Terror can't be won.  Just like the war on Drugs can't be won.

I will say this though.  While they may not have been in a position to end terrorism by shifting policy in the direction you would have liked, they were under no obligation to fuel terrorism by shifting policy in the other direction.

That has been the real failure of the Bush Administration.  They've thrown gasolene on the fire of terrorism and pretended to the American people that it was water.

30 years after Bloody Sunday we are still wrapped up in investigations and accusations. At least some of the Terrorists in the North got involved directly because of that event.

There have been dozens of Bloody Sunday's in Iraq.  Numerous civilians including women and children shot while protesting.  In one case troops opened fire on a crowd who were protesting after (possibly untrue) rumours spread about troops using night vision goggles to spy on women.
It was a peaceful protest outside a school.

Forget high minded idealogical arguments about defeating terrorists.  Terrorists are created and defeated on the ground in the way that the powerful interact with the powerless.  It has always been this way.

-Rd


----------



## piggy (18 May 2004)

*"I wouldn't agree with that. I presume you're suggesting that If America had been less isolationist, and if they'd been more even handed in the Middle East conflict that it would have removed the causes of terrorism.

That's only partly true, and even if it was true, America was never going to radically change it's pro-Israel stance in response to 9/11, nor were they going to pull troops out of the Saudi Arabia or anywhere else in the regi*[/b]

Unfortunately yes. America was unlikely to do what it *should* have. But it's still the *reason* for most of this terrorism. They could have adopted a more balanced approach and calmed the situation. Osama and his cronies didn't fly two planes into the Twin Towers just because America represents everything they're not.

*"The other reason America couldn't have diffused terrorism is that at least some of it is being carried out by complete nutters with no particular reason for hating America, other than the fact that it symbolises everything they are not."*

Although I agree...they are nutters, they could have been defeated. Terrorism needs support. Without support it has no cause. In some ways this is a pointless conversation, because what should have happened could never, ever have happened. 

*"That has been the real failure of the Bush Administration. They've thrown gasolene on the fire of terrorism and pretended to the American people that it was water."*

Couldn't agree with you more.

*"Forget high minded idealogical arguments about defeating terrorists. Terrorists are created and defeated on the ground in the way that the powerful interact with the powerless. It has always been this way."*

Just as there are reasons behind Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. 
Remember what the IRA used to say...remember all the slogans, 'BRITS OUT'. It was never likely to happen was it. Were they extremists? Yes. Yet we have relative peace today, catholic living beside prodestant. It's not ideal, but it's better than what we had.


----------



## YD (18 May 2004)

*WMD being deployed in Iraq*

Okay, it took a while but we now hear that WMD have not only been discovered in Iraq but have been deployed.  Two US soldiers had to be treated for coughing after an attack by Sarin nerve gas.  Makes it all seem worthwile.


----------



## daltonr (18 May 2004)

*Re: WMD being deployed in Iraq*

The sad thing about the 9/11 attacks is that the bad guys won.  They got exactly what they wanted.  

* World Wide Fame - Who hasn't heard of Al Queda?
* Civil rights greatly restricted in the "Free" US of A.
* World leaders in the "Democratic" west ignoring the wishes
   of the vast majority of their citizens.
* Greater fear, distrust and hatred between the West and
   East, Christian and Muslim etc.
* Greater instability in the Middle East
* American invasions and attrocities which can be used to
   rally support for the "Anti-American Cause"
* The secular Saddam removed from Iraq
* The invading 
   powers made to look stupid, or corrupt or both.

If Al-Queda had written a mission statement before 9/11 it would have read something like that.  And then they'd have laughed.  "There's no way we can achieve all that in 2 to 3 years."

-Rd


----------



## purple (18 May 2004)

*Re.Daltonr*

I agree completely.


----------



## wavejumper (18 May 2004)

*YD*

"Makes it all seem worthwile. "

otherwise it would have not been worthwhile?  I thought the good fight was for liberating iraq, freeing the world of the muslim menace and safeguarding the freedom of the American allies.  Isn't that what it was all about?  butchering tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq just to show them what happens when a group of Saudis decide to slam 4 commercial airplanes on US soil.  

Oh and btw, it was 1 round which is apparently part of the 1991 cache of weapon.  the lot which was sold to iraq by the US and the UK.

why don't you join your friend Berg in Iraq if you're so keen on making it worthwhile buddy?


----------



## piggy (18 May 2004)

*Re: YD*

*"Makes it all seem worthwile."*

I could be wrong but I think his comment was sarcastic.


----------



## wavejumper (18 May 2004)

*perhaps*

yea well maybe.  i think its moer like trolling  in order to get the likes of me to get banned.  I'll shut up.


----------



## chilidog (18 May 2004)

*McDonalds*

Dalton R scribed..............

* World Wide Fame - Who hasn't heard of Al Queda? – And this really helps their cause how? We now know more about these dogs and their behaviour and thus we are more vigilant.
* Civil rights greatly restricted in the "Free" US of A. – Ok more control on movement but that is more to do with point one and the risk management side.
* World leaders in the "Democratic" west ignoring the wishes
of the vast majority of their citizens. – This is pants, no one more that the US, GB and the UN peace and stability its just that it cannot happen like a video game, there will be losses. 
* Greater fear, distrust and hatred between the West and
East, Christian and Muslim etc. – My friend this has been the case since ancient times and no matter what we or our forefathers do will cease the suspicions. I am sorry but we aint all going to McDonalds on a fun lovin trip, Cath v Prots , Arabs v West, Japs v Chin , the Balkan mish mash , Turks and Cypriots there aint no magic fix here.
* Greater instability in the Middle East – Has it ever been stable really can you tell me when we a stable middle east without having to child mind the regimes, please check your history book.
* American invasions and attrocities which can be used to
rally support for the "Anti-American Cause". Ok and Iraq has never committed these or Bin Laden, a  few bad apples in a prison running riot hardly equals the formers record.
* The secular Saddam removed from Iraq – How is this bad for the war on Terror, a friend or Bin Laden , Gaddaffi and basically anyone who is in that line of work.
* The invading 
powers made to look stupid, or corrupt or both. – The invaders where actually the liberators and they are contributing a damn sight more than anyone else on this site with their hypothetical BS.


----------



## piggy (18 May 2004)

*Re: McDonalds*

*"World Wide Fame - Who hasn't heard of Al Queda? – And this really helps their cause how?"*

It's called exposure...something that all terrorist groups look for.

*"World leaders in the "Democratic" west ignoring the wishes
of the vast majority of their citizens"*

If you believe the polls (and I'm not sure I do) the war had a very slight majority amongst the populations of both America and Britain *before* the war.
Right now, the majority of people (according to polls) are against it.

*"My friend this has been the case since ancient times and no matter what we or our forefathers do will cease the suspicions"*

Fortunately not everyone thinks this way. No one ever said that Catholics and Muslims were living side by side harmoniously (although they are in many countries). However, whatever suspicions and fears did exist have now been multiplied 100 fold. If you can't see the danger of this then I'm wasting my breath.

*"Has it ever been stable really can you tell me when we a stable middle east without having to child mind the regimes, please check your history book."*

That's no reason to de-stabilise it even more. Again, if you can't see the inherent danger in destabilsing an already unstable region then you should watch the news more.

*"American invasions and attrocities which can be used to
rally support for the "Anti-American Cause". Ok and Iraq has never committed these or Bin Laden, a few bad apples in a prison running riot hardly equals the formers record."*

Oh dear :\    The old Saddam was worse than the US are argument. I guess then if the US soldiers just murder a few Iraqi's and only torture them a little that's okay, because it doesn't compare to what Saddam did right? Thanks for clearing that one up.
Incidentally, we don't know yet if it was only a few bad apples, or if it's rampant and the order for this behaviour came from higher up. My money's on it coming from their superiors personally. We all know what's been going on in Guantanemo don't we?

*"The secular Saddam removed from Iraq – How is this bad for the war on Terror, a friend or Bin Laden"*

Now you're just showing us all how little you know about all this. Saddam and Bin Laden were not friends and this is well documented and has been discussed in some depth in the media over the past year and a half.. In fact, they were probably enemies if anything. Saddam had no links to Al Queda.

*"The invaders where actually the liberators and they are contributing a damn sight more than anyone else on this site with their hypothetical BS."*

There's nothing hypothetical about any of it chillidog. All daltonr was contributing was similar to what many experts around the world have been saying for a long time now.

Your liberation is another man's occupation.


----------



## Zeus (18 May 2004)

*Understanding Muslim nations*

Piggy sayeth:

"This idea that Muslim countries are bad places is even more depressing. Let's democracise everything we don't understand eh? Very, very depressing stuff!" 

Q:  What precisely do you not understand about many of these Muslim nations? Surely you read the papers and scour the net so you must be aware that in some of these countries they practice honour killings, outlaw free press, sponsor terrorism, harass, imprison or murder non-Muslims, repress women and generally breed maniacal hatred of the West.  Not one of them is a functioning democracy because Islam, according to the Saudi ambassador to Britain, is incompatible with democracy. How hard is that to understand? What you take for granted, like ranting on this list, would probably have you imprisoned or worse in one of these countries you claim some don't understand.  But of course, many of these nations forbid the use of the internet in the first place so you' be at a great disadavantage, Piggy.

By the way, what's your take on the state sponsored butchery going on in The Sudan at the moment?  It's a Muslim nation, as you no doubt already know.


----------



## piggy (18 May 2004)

*Re: Understanding Muslim nations*

*"This idea that Muslim countries are bad places is even more depressing. Let's democracise everything we don't understand eh? Very, very depressing stuff!"*

I'm not going to get into a debate on what some Muslim nations do or do not do. I aware of a lot of the things that go on and are still going on in places like Afghanistan today, despite the invasion!

My point above was that it's wrong to think we can invade countries with a view to democracising them. 

Incidentally, your view of things seems to be very one sided. The propoganda seems to have worked well on you. No doubt all Muslim's are evil and want to kill you and eat your children.

This thread has been about the war on terror, which (if you believe it) is about ridding the world of terrorists who attack the West. It's not about whether you live in Ireland or Saudi Arabia. 
Of course, many people refuse to believe that the 'war' has anything to do with protecting democracy in the first place.


----------



## YD (19 May 2004)

*Convert*

Zeus, chillidog et al.  I used to be like you and think piggy was a high school leftie ranting on naively against everything we believe in and a succour for every madcap conspiracy theorist.  

But surely the events of the last few weeks have been some vindication for piggy's stance.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Convert*

Hmmm...I don't know whether to be offended by that or take it as a compliment  

Everyone who has ever stood up against the war on terror has always been branded a 'leftie'. 

It's true to say there are plenty of them out there. That however doesn't make them/us all lefties.

Bush et all is about as far to the right as you're ever going to find. They're so far right in fact they fell off the page a few books back.

Middle ground is about looking at this whole situation with some intelligence. Who says you need to believe everything that politicians tell us for god's sake. Has living under FF for this long taught us nothing!!!!!


----------



## i (19 May 2004)

*muslim*

Zeus is correct about Muslim countries.  Piggy has not a clue about what she talks about.    She is a muslim terrorist sympathiser.


----------



## purple (19 May 2004)

*Re..*

chilidog;





> Has it ever been stable really can you tell me when we a stable middle east without having to child mind the regimes, please check your history book.


 Have you ever haerd of the Ottoman empire? or the Islamic empire that it grew out of? The Middle East was stable for hundreds of years, right up to the late 17th century. Read your history books.
The reason I started this thread was to point out that the real denger is that we paint everything in black and white.
I don't like George W Bush or the people who pull his strings and the premis that this war was fought on seems to have been untrue but is cannot be said that the people of Iraq are worse off under a US imposed government.
It also cannot be said that the US went in only to "free" the people of Iraq but nether can it be said that they were only after the oil as sadam would have been happy to sell it to them at the market rate. Like most things in life this war was started for many complex reasons that cannot be explaned put of their historical context or in a Sky News sound bite.
The notion of "imposing" democracy is absurd. By definition it is the government of the majority of the people. If you restrict their options it is not democratic. Yes democracy is not possable in a fundamentalist islamic state, just as it is impossable in a fundamentalist Christian state. We should also bare in mind that western democracy emerged after the age of enlightenment in Europe and out of dozens of wars over about 400 years from the 15th to the 20th century.
It is also worth noteing that for hundreds of years Jews and Christian sects fled oppression in Europe to the relative freedom of the Islamic world.


----------



## YD (19 May 2004)

*Piggy has his/her day in the sun*

It was a complement, Piggy.  Let's face it if Iraqis were now happily engaging in a Westerm style election and the first buds of normalcy and prosperity were showing in this "beacon of democracy", as we were promised, I would be the first to let you know how wrong you were.

Instead, I am left with a very bad taste in my mouth.  I'm not about to emigrate to Libya or Iran, our Western society is still the best, but it is the best of a very bad lot.

Yes, we are free and very prosperous but we are arrogant, selfish and morally defective (as a society).

To be fair to myself I always thought there was something unsavoury about Dubya but Tony Blair, I find that hard to take.:eek 

I have also become a conspiracy theorist.  Were those DM pictures really fake?  If so, was it all a ruse by the Establishment to scare the pants off the Press pursuing the real thing?  Did David Kelly, nearing retirement with nothing to lose, really slash his own wrists? Surely if he was that sensitive he wouldn't have dared do what he did in the first place.


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: muslim*

*"Zeus is correct about Muslim countries. Piggy has not a clue about what she talks about. She is a muslim terrorist sympathiser."*

:lol  Yes...I'm not only a Muslim terrorist sympathiser, I am in fact Osama Bin Laden. I'm so bored in this damn cave. You...yes, you over there. Bring me that dead goat. I'm hungry...now where was I...

*"It was a complement, Piggy. Let's face it if Iraqis were now happily engaging in a Westerm style election and the first buds of normalcy and prosperity were showing in this "beacon of democracy", as we were promised, I would be the first to let you know how wrong you were."*

If and when Iraq becomes a fully fledged democracy I will be very, very happy YD. Genuinely I will. By the way, YD stands for Yankee Doodle doesn't it?  
However, even if the violence on our TV screens was over that would not have made this war okay in my books.

Anyway, enough said for the moment. The sun is out and I'm feeling very cramped in this cave.


----------



## YD (19 May 2004)

*Sing to the tune of Yankee Doodle Dandee*

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee, born on the 4th of July,

Really thought that we were right to invade Iraq, do or die, 

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee, wish that that my President didn't lie

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandee, what's happened in Iraq has made me cry


----------



## piggy (19 May 2004)

*Re: Piggy has his/her day in the sun*

*"To be fair to myself I always thought there was something unsavoury about Dubya but Tony Blair, I find that hard to take"*

That's because Tony Blair is a wonderful, wonderful actor. I no more believe that Tony thinks this is all about the people of Iraq than I believe George Bush.

*"Were those DM pictures really fake? If so, was it all a ruse by the Establishment to scare the pants off the Press pursuing the real thing?"*

I reckon so, yes. I doubt that the second part is true. This is not the kind of publicity they want.

*"Did David Kelly, nearing retirement with nothing to lose, really slash his own wrists? Surely if he was that sensitive he wouldn't have dared do what he did in the first place."*

I don't think we'll ever really know for sure.


----------



## YD (25 May 2004)

*Bush misses the plot again*

Bush has announced that he is going to destroy that prison (can't spell it`, sorry).

It wasn't the prison which committed the war crimes.


----------



## purple (27 May 2004)

*The prison*



> Bush has announced that he is going to destroy that prison (can't spell it`, sorry).


 don't worry, he couldn't pronounce it!
To be fair the invasion/liberation of Iraq must be judged on it's own merits. The excesses of the military or CIA or whoever, while to be condemned, are of no relevance to the rights or wrongs of the war in and of itself. If it is wrong it is wrong, if it is right it is right. The actions of the troops on the ground do not effect this issue.


----------



## True Blue (28 May 2004)

*Re: The prison*

At the end of the day history will judge the Iraqi situation.
I for one think that this war was justified - with or without the
discovery of WMDs.


----------



## piggy (29 May 2004)

*Re: The prison*

History is already beginning to judge it TB. You're not keeping up to date with news, general opinion around the world. History will remember it in much the same way as Vietnam is viewed...maybe worse though.

You may have supported it True Blue...but then your views *are* extreme right wing.


----------



## P (29 May 2004)

*Iraq*

Rubbish, piggy.   You do not have to be extreme right wing to see the correctness in displacing Saddam Hussein.     I am not saying that everying that every single american does is correct - how could it be - but American and British democracy is a hell of a lot better than Saddams version of democracy.    Would you , Piggy, like to have been one of Saddams torture victims - then you would know what real torture is.


----------



## piggy (29 May 2004)

*Re: Iraq*

Yeah, you're probably right P. Saddam's torture techniques were slightly superior to the Americans.

And of course, by that logic...there's a lot of bad governments in the world aren't there. Let's invade them all - one by one. That'll solve all our problems.


----------



## P (30 May 2004)

If you call Saddams torture techniques superior to the Americans ...... do you approve of the torture techniques , public hangings and gross intimidation used by Saddam Hussein and his followers ?   Most Americans treated their captives fairly.   The few bad apples in the american military  did not stoop to the barbarity  that the Iraquis did in an official capacity, and these handful of americans are being / will be court marshalled / punished.


----------



## piggy (30 May 2004)

*If you call Saddams torture techniques superior to the Americans ...... do you approve of the torture techniques , public hangings and gross intimidation used by Saddam Hussein and his followers ?*
In case you hadn't noticed I'm playing devil's advocate :\  

*Most Americans treated their captives fairly. The few bad apples in the american military did not stoop to the barbarity that the Iraquis did in an official capacity, and these handful of americans are being / will be court marshalled / punished.* 
The above statement is merely your opinion, pieced together with what little media reports have come out about this situation so far.

Personally, with detention camps like Guantanemo and the goings on there (under the full knowledge of the current American regime) I think it's naive to believe, to say the least, that the head honchos within Bush's government weren't calling the shots in Iraqi prisons.

But then if you believe the spin behind this war in the first place (that it was just or had anything to do with WMD or freeing the Iraqi's) then I suppose you'll believe whatever is presented to you.


----------



## Dr Moriarty (30 May 2004)

I'm with piggy all the way on this one.

I never saw (even) a Republican President (or "Governor", if you follow Michael Moore's line) — or his administration — fork up so badly as this one.

I say the guy is gone, next election... (but what/who will replace him, I hear you cry? Who gives a damn, frankly...!)

I just wish our own "government" weren't bending over quite so obsequiously to kiss his hairy yellow and allow him in to Dromoland Castle for his 12-hour pre-election photo-op. We've already rendered the notion of Irish "neutrality" completely meaningless — do we really need to stoop to this level?

Burn in hell, George...

Dr. M.


----------



## Peace (30 May 2004)

You can not bring democracy the way you have it here to Middle East, they don't want it. If they did they all would have opened their arms to you. West shouldn't be interfering with their way of living. If you don't like the way Muslims live that is your problem but as Purple put few posts ago Ottomans survived up until 17th century where the western hungry powers like UK and France start poking in their politics and start to divide the empire with their influence. There were almost every religion in the empire and keeping happy all these people for centuries couldn't have been an easy task. Ottomans didn't conquer with wars or force all the time, there were many regions that just joined the empire while escaping from ruthless Christianity in Europe, you can check your history book for the dark ages of Europe too. 18th century empire was divided for centuries and Ottoman Turks had to fight to British and other western powers in Middle East with the lost of millions of soldiers, they have lost when the arabs turned their back to them and went under British rule that messed up the region further. 
Before anyone criticise Islam, should learn their own religion whatever that you beleive. And don't forget it is you that trying to interfere with their lives not other way around and of course you will get opposition whom you will call terrorists. It's all about greed nothing more to it. Doesn't matter if 10s of thousands die so that you can live your greedy lives. 
War with terrorism my @ss, someone tell me how many terrorists caught or killed since war with terrorism started and also tell me how many civilians killed by the terrorists that trying to stop terrorism?


----------



## RevJamesFlynn (31 May 2004)

> [This posting is a bit long, but at the bottom I've posted links to back up claims made.  I'd appreciate any reasoned response or counter-argument.]



The invasion of Iraq was first presented to the public as necessary because the Ba'athist regime was supporting Al-Queda [1].  This was subsequently stated (by Colin Powell [2.1])to be a claim completely without foundation, and in fact the opposite may be true [2.2].

It was then justified as necessary in order to eliminate the threat from "Weapons of Mass Destruction" [3].  WMD of any significance have not been found in Iraq, despite over a year of searching [4].  Initial claims that Iraq was building a nuclear bomb have also been proven false [5]. After a decade of UN sanctions, only the intellectually dishonest could claim that Iraq posed a military threat to any nation.

On March 23rd 2003, the invasion commenced, and was predictably successful from a military perspective.

The justifications given before the war had however been proven by facts to be untenable, so the story changed again.  The invasion of Iraq was now presented as necessary to remove a tyrant who oppressed his own people.  But this repositioning leaves us with the troubling question - with all the oppressive regimes out there (North Korea, Cuba, Zimbabwe, China, etc) why was Iraq in particular chosen?  Why did the US support Saddam before the first Gulf War, when his atrocities were well known?[6]  And why in the Spring of 2003, when a significant majority of the world's nations were pleading for restraint and a multilateral solution, did the US and the UK decide to press ahead with their invasion regardless?

And so today, in the Spring of 2004, we see the unsurprising result - a country on the verge of civil war, atrocity after atrocity, and US and British soldiers being killed on the streets of Iraq.

So, what has happened?  Some facts are clear - the invasion of Iraq had been a goal of several members of the Republican Administration long before the election of George W Bush [7].  Their agenda (the U.S. being the relatively open society that it is) is not secret - it had been public for several years in a series of open and signed letters from the political pressure group "Project for the New American Century" [8].  Members included Cheney, Rumsfeld, Jeb Bush, Wolfowitz, Perle, Kagen, Kristol – much of the current US Administration effectively [9].  There's no conspiracy – the signatures are there, out in the open - these people are intelligent, reasoned, and believe their politics best serve the interests of their country.

In the hours and days after 9/11 both Bush and Cheney [10]   were searching for ways to link the attacks to Iraq, despite knowing that the most likely perpetrators were Al-Queda.

What motivates this political class in Washington?  Why would they take these actions?  What do they wish to gain?  

Several things - principally a stable alternative source of Middle East oil as leverage against the Saudis [11].  Also insurance in the event the Saudi royal family should be toppled and whatever fundamentalist regime takes over attempts to replay the oil crisis of the late 70s.  A motivation to protect the state of Israel, and also provide it with a source of water [12].  Mostly however, they just believe in a more muscular US foreign policy - with military might a factor greater than any other on the globe, why should they not use military force to further their national interest?  It’s a war-mongering view we’re no longer used to hearing from western politicians, but it’s clear and open.

One thing must be clear, however, the invasion of Iraq had:
+ Nothing to do with links to Al-Queda - there was no link of any consequence.
+ Nothing to do with WMD - there weren't any of consequence.
+ Nothing to do with liberating the Iraqi people - who could seriously claim the invasion was a humanitarian intervention?

Partisans from the left claim Bush is stupid, evil, or both.  This is patently false - despite his stutters he's not a stupid man, and he believes his actions best serve his country.  Partisans from the right claim that the invasion of Iraq was morally justified as it removed Saddam.  Most fail to see the real reasons behind the invasion – it’s easier and simpler to trust the government, believe we are the superior heroes, and think that a bad man is now in jail.  Saddam's removal was a welcome result, but the real consequences of the decision to invade - thousands of civilian deaths, an increase in terrorism, international political division - have far outweighed any positives from this immoral invasion.

The bigger the lie, the easier it is to sell.  I just pray that this group is voted out in November – these are dark, dark days.

 -- James

[1]  Remarks to the United Nations Security Council Secretary Colin L. Powell.  New York City February 5, 2003 
[2.1]  Powell Admits No Hard Proof in Linking Iraq to Al Qaeda
[2.2]  BBC - Saddam 'wary of jihad fighters' 
[3] [broken link removed]
[4] [broken link removed]
[5]  CNN  March 14, 2003 
[6]  National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82 
[7]  PNAC Rebuilding America’s Defenses – 1997  
[8]  Project for the New American Century  
[9]  PNAC Membership  
[10]   Ron Suskind “The Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House and the Education of Paul O'Neill”
[11] [broken link removed] 
[12]  BBC Report on Middle East Water scarcity


----------



## ElCid (31 May 2004)

*Islam, History and Democracy*



> You can not bring democracy the way you have it here to Middle East, they don't want it. If they did they all would have opened their arms to you. West shouldn't be interfering with their way of living.



Absolutely correct. Islam is incompatible with democracy. Muslims are not ashamed of this, but very proud to say it. NO to democracy.



> If you don't like the way Muslims live that is your problem but as Purple put few posts ago Ottomans survived up until 17th century where the western hungry powers like UK and France start poking in their politics and start to divide the empire with their influence.



Not quite true.
The Ottoman empire started to crumble from the end of the 17th century when they were defeated at the siege of Vienna, which was a war of Islamic conquest that they pursued. The Ottoman empire was a brutal regime and crumbled easily by itself. The fact that western powers came in to carve it up afterward was a natural result of the vacuum that was left behind.



> There were almost every religion in the empire and keeping happy all these people for centuries couldn't have been an easy task.



Rubbish. Force was used.



> Ottomans didn't conquer with wars or force all the time, there were many regions that just joined the empire while escaping from ruthless Christianity in Europe,



Example please?



> you can check your history book for the dark ages of Europe too.



Actually the Dark Ages in europe arrived soon after the fall of the Roman Empire. As Romes power wained barbarian hordes overran most of the previously civilized world. By the mid 7th century Islam had arrived on the scene and organised the barbarian rabble into Islamic armies which joined in the Jihad to convert the known world to Islam by the sword. 
The Islamic invasion of europe continued for centuries, and the unending wars dragged europe into a period of disorder and backwardness, known as The Dark Ages.  



> 18th century empire was divided for centuries and Ottoman Turks had to fight to British and other western powers in Middle East with the lost of millions of soldiers, they have lost when the arabs turned their back to them and went under British rule that messed up the region further.



Yes, the Arabs turned their backs on the Turks in the Middle East because contrary to what you stated earlier they were not happy under their brutal rule. The Ottomans sided with the Germans in WW1 and the British promised the Arabs independance if they would rise up against their Turkish masters. The Arab army was led by a British officer named T.E.Lawrence, otherwise known as Lawrence of Arabia. If you read his autobiography (The Seven Pillars of Wisdom) you soon see how much 'loved' the Turks were.
The Brits of course reneged on their promise to give the Arabs independance. Oil had been discovered by then!!!



> Before anyone criticise Islam, should learn their own religion whatever that you beleive.



Yes, Catholicism was the main religion in this country (Ireland) and many dirty deeds have been done down through the ages in the name of Christianity. The difference is that people in the west now see the fault in blind faith in religion as a result of these sins, and secularism is the path followed by western states now. ME countries on the other hand are just starting down the path of religious fascism that the west has now abandoned. Keep your Islamic beliefs to yourself and I'm happy to let you do as you wish. Try to force them on me and I'll fight you back.



> And don't forget it is you that trying to interfere with their lives not other way around..


 
What about 9-11. I think Muslims interfered a lot in my life that day.



> ...and of course you will get opposition whom you will call terrorists.



And who you will call Freedom Fighters I suppose?



> It's all about greed nothing more to it.



Yes...and what is it the Muslims crave from the west? Only their very souls!



> Doesn't matter if 10s of thousands die so that you can live your greedy lives.



Ask OPEC this question.



> War with terrorism my @ss, someone tell me how many terrorists caught or killed since war with terrorism started and also tell me how many civilians killed by the terrorists that trying to stop terrorism?



Guantanamo is full of terrorists. Richard Reid is in jail, so is Moussaoui. This war will continue and the West will win, don't worry, because neither me nor most of the populations of the west will ever live under the fascist yoke of an Islamis state.


----------



## alfraits (31 May 2004)

Do you remember the 'hate sessions' in Orwell's book. The workers gathered into a room to watch a TV broadcast of the hated 'Goldstein' and were encouraged to shout abuse at the bearded Semitic figure. 

'War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength' is the Party's motto, and its language is 'doublespeak'.


----------



## piggy (31 May 2004)

*Re: Islam, History and Democracy*

*ME countries on the other hand are just starting down the path of religious fascism that the west has now abandoned. Keep your Islamic beliefs to yourself and I'm happy to let you do as you wish. Try to force them on me and I'll fight you back.*


Then you don't think that America is full of religious fanatisicm? Even though George Bush rallies his troops with the words "God is on our side"???

*What about 9-11. I think Muslims interfered a lot in my life that day.*

A bit of a sweeping statement isn't it? A small group of Islamic fundamentalists would be a better way of putting it...unless you want to tar all Muslims with the same brush.

*Yes...and what is it the Muslims crave from the west? Only their very souls!*

Funny...zinger says the very same thing. Hmmm...I wonder.
You need to learn to differentiate between Muslims and terrorists.

*This war will continue and the West will win, don't worry, because neither me nor most of the populations of the west will ever live under the fascist yoke of an Islamis state.* 

This war is not a war though really is it? Stating that you will never live under an Islamic state serves no real purpose as far as I can see. Did you ever think this *was* going to happen?

I suggest you try to understand the reasons behind Islamic terrorism before you jump to unfortunate conclusions.


----------



## RevJamesFlynn (31 May 2004)

*Re: Islam, History and Democracy*



> Absolutely correct. Islam is incompatible with democracy. Muslims are not ashamed of this, but very proud to say it. NO to democracy.



72 million Turkish muslims, who live in a secular democracy, would be surprised to hear this.

But then, according to your analysis, they're all the same, right?  The perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks were all muslim, therefore all muslims perpetrated the 9/11 attacks?

  -- James.


----------



## Seamus (1 Jun 2004)

*Iraq*

It is a well know fact that Saddam Hussein used to pay generous bounties to the families of suicide bombers in Israel, in order to entice them to commit their dastardly deeds ( along with the promise of dozens of virgins in heaven etc ).  Perhaps Piggy agrees with this also?

By the way, Piggy ( what an apt name !), what Iraqui company will all of us work for if your friends get their way ?   Or are we as likely to be treated as well as Saddam treated the rest of his population?

Grow up.


----------



## purple (1 Jun 2004)

*Finally*

alfraits;


> Do you remember the 'hate sessions' in Orwell's book. The workers gathered into a room to watch a TV broadcast of the hated 'Goldstein' and were encouraged to shout abuse at the bearded Semitic figure.


 Finally, someone posts on the point I started this thing with. Thanks alfraits.
It's the shadowy implied threat and the ill defined enemy that worries me. It's a bit like the crap that was peddled during the cultural revolution in China.

As for Elcid, either your post was a glorified troll or you have't a clue about history. If us Christians want to win an argument with Muslims then don't have one about which religion has the most blood on it's hands or which one has gone to the most extreme reaches.





> Islam is incompatible with democracy


 that's right, and so is Christianity, that's why we live in a secular state.  


> What about 9-11. I think Muslims interfered a lot in my life that day.


 If that's what you think you are simply wrong.
No fundamentalism in the USA; tell that to the Salim witches.

Try and have a balanced view. The world is not black and white.


----------



## piggy (1 Jun 2004)

*Re: Iraq*

*It is a well know fact that Saddam Hussein used to pay generous bounties to the families of suicide bombers in Israel, in order to entice them to commit their dastardly deeds ( along with the promise of dozens of virgins in heaven etc ).*

1) And this is relevant to the conversation in what way?
2) provide some proof of this please.

*Perhaps Piggy agrees with this also?*

What would make you think a strange thing like that? Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to a single thing I've been saying.

*By the way, Piggy ( what an apt name !), what Iraqui company will all of us work for if your friends get their way ? *

Who exactly are my friends Seamus? It seems that the point I've been trying to make is completely lost on you Seamus. Go back to thinking that the good people kill the bad men Seamus. The world will make more sense for you that way.

*Or are we as likely to be treated as well as Saddam treated the rest of his population?*

Can you explain this to me please?


----------



## ElCid (1 Jun 2004)

*Islam*

Piggy says:



> Then you don't think that America is full of religious fanatisicm? Even though George Bush rallies his troops with the words "God is on our side"???



Rubbish. America is not *full* of religious fanaticism. There are Christian fundamentalists in America, but they neither represent the majority of the population nor the policies or politics of the nation, nor are they bent on subjugating the whole world by use of fundamentalist private armies or suicidal murderous terrorism.
God is actually on nobodies side when it comes to killing.



> A bit of a sweeping statement isn't it? A small group of Islamic fundamentalists would be a better way of putting it...unless you want to tar all Muslims with the same brush.



Piggy I am 100% certain you've never lived in or even visited a Muslim country. If you had done you would realise how popular mister Bin Laden is in the general mislim population. I've seen children in those countries wearing T-Shirts emblazoned with his image and the burning towers pictured behind him. It also strikes many of us how little outspoken condemnation he receives from the so called 'moderate' muslim leaders around the world. So in that respect, yes, I would unfortunately have to 'tar' the vast majority of *true* muslims with the fundamentalist sympathiser brush.



> You need to learn to differentiate between Muslims and terrorists.



You need to really learn more about Islam and its precepts.



> This war is not a war though really is it? Stating that you will never live under an Islamic state serves no real purpose as far as I can see. Did you ever think this was going to happen?



Oh yes, I see it as the one great war that has lasted down the centuries. Islam has been in conflict with the christian west since its very invention 1,300 years ago. Fortunately christianity has prevailed, and I believe it will do so, at least as long as there are people who (unlike you) refuse to bury their head in the sand.

RevJamesFlynn: You forgot to mention Malaysia, and Indonesia, both of which have (somewhat) functioning democracies. However you miss the point entirely. Just as western society has moved to separate church and state, so Islamic society is moving to bind the two together again. Muslims in even westernised democracies like Malaysia see themselves and their brethren as victims of a wicked western society, and are being daily convinced that their only salvation is in the worldwide muslim brotherhood. Much of the basic teaching of the Koran in fact emphasises the necessity for this worldwide islamic union in the ultimate form of a worlwide Sharia based 'Khallifah'. Since democracy is actually immoral under Islamic teaching, the weak democracies that exist at present are eventually doomed to failure as the populist fundamentalist movement converts more and more muslims to the belief that only they can establish the Khallifate...Gods Rule on Earth. This is what OBL is actually fighting for quite proudly, and it is seen as a good and noble thing by ordinary muslims.

purple says:



> If us Christians want to win an argument with Muslims then don't have one about which religion has the most blood on it's hands or which one has gone to the most extreme reaches.



Perhaps you didn't read my first post slowly enough. I averred to the errors made by christianity in the past. And by the past, I'm referring to such ignorance as was shown by the Catholic conquistadors of the Incas, and their murderous conversions. 
But purple, the conquest of Peru and Mexico occurred in and around 600 years ago. So you see, I think it is rather weak of you to argue that christianity needs further reform. Perhaps you should try to separate religion from politics in your own head. You seem as confused by the concept as Osama is. 



> Islam is incompatible with democracy....and so is Christianity, that's why we live in a secular state.


Yes, we do. My point exactly. 
Now, can you convince Osama and the Taliban to do so?  



> If that's what you think you are simply wrong.
> No fundamentalism in the USA; tell that to the Salim witches.



There you go again digging up ancient history. Lets see...Salem witch trials...1692. Only 312 years ago...you're definitely getting closer. Have you heard of any witches being burned in Massacussetts lately? 



> Try and have a balanced view. The world is not black and white.



I've spent the last two years studying Islam, and reading widely different books on its meaning and interpretation. I've also lived in an Islamic country and travelled widely in several others. I believe I have a balanced and well founded knowledge of Islam, and I am therefore completely secure in the knowledge that Islam is a fascist movement similiar to Naziism in many respects, it thrives on the ignorance of its people and is a growing threat to the west and the peace of the world.


----------



## piggy (1 Jun 2004)

*Re: Islam*

*I've spent the last two years studying Islam, and reading widely different books on its meaning and interpretation. I've also lived in an Islamic country and travelled widely in several others. I believe I have a balanced and well founded knowledge of Islam, and I am therefore completely secure in the knowledge that Islam is a fascist movement similiar to Naziism in many respects, it thrives on the ignorance of its people and is a growing threat to the west and the peace of the world.* 

I was prepared to answer your post ELCid, but judging from this you're either a troll or a deeply misguided and troubled person.


----------



## ElCid (1 Jun 2004)

*Bankrupt?*

Well I think thats it then. QED.

I understand how uncomfortable it must be for you to have your deepest convictions challenged piggy, but I generally find that those westerners who defend the Islamic world as fervently as you, actually tend to know the least about it.

Of course you could be a Muslim?


----------



## piggy (1 Jun 2004)

*Re: Bankrupt?*

*I understand how uncomfortable it must be for you to have your deepest convictions challenged piggy*

Except that you haven't challenged any of them. I'm just horrified when I read unbalanced, prejudiced views such as yours.

You don't need to live in a predominantly Muslim country to understand the injustices perpetrated in the name of western democracy (sometimes).

I follow no religion or faith.

*but I generally find that those westerners who defend the Islamic world as fervently as you, actually tend to know the least about it.*

You missed the whole point of what I've been saying in about three different posts on this board at present. You've jumped to your own conclusions. I've committed the mortal sin of poking holes in this US administrations foreign policy towards the Middle East so obviously I must be defending Osama Bin Laden and all religious fundamentalists. It's not about religion. It's about people. I'm not defending Islam or Christianity :\


----------



## ElCid (2 Jun 2004)

*Higgledy Piggledy*



> ...my...deepest convictions....you haven't challenged any of them. I'm just horrified when I read unbalanced, prejudiced views such as yours.



But piggy, I just presented you with a logical rebuttal to your argument, all you come up with in return is your inflated expressions of _*shock*_ and _*horror*_.

Really piggy you need to do better than that.

...injustices perpetrated in the name of western democracy...*(sometimes).* Well, I'm glad to see we aren't all evil westerners *all* the time.



> I've committed the mortal sin of poking holes in this US administrations foreign policy towards the Middle East


No I haven't actually seen you do that piggy. Maybe you're imagining it.

I've seen your contributions on other threads piggy (such as the 'Ireland is Sinking' one) and you seem to have a very strong tendancy to make indignant posts full of admonishments and *shock* at others opinions, then when challenged to  debate appear unable to back up your own position with anything substantial or factual.

Paper Tiger? Or Windbag?


----------



## piggy (2 Jun 2004)

*Re: Higgledy Piggledy*

*I just presented you with a logical rebuttal to your argument, all you come up with in return is your inflated expressions of *shock* and *horror*.*

By logical rebuttal are you referring to tarring all Muslims with the same brush?

I must have missed the logic.

*...injustices perpetrated in the name of western democracy...(sometimes). Well, I'm glad to see we aren't all evil westerners all the time.*

I never said anyone was evil. Your words, not mine.

*I've seen your contributions on other threads piggy (such as the 'Ireland is Sinking' one) and you seem to have a very strong tendancy to make indignant posts full of admonishments and *shock* at others opinions, then when challenged to debate appear unable to back up your own position with anything substantial or factual.*

Perhaps you could point out where I didn't back anything I said up in that post (in relation to the question) with a logical argument. 

I am shocked by what you said about Muslims ELCid. Your prejudicial nature just can't see how messed up that is. That's your problem though. 

I said I thought you were a troll or a deeply troubled and misguided person. I stand by the second part at least. I'm beginning to think you're serious though in relation to Muslims.

It seems you're the one who's resorted to petty schoolyard name calling.

It's funny that. There always seems to be some new unregistered user during these sorts of debates who makes the same childish remarks about me. 

I'll come back when you've grown up.


----------



## ElCid (2 Jun 2004)

*Higgledy Piggledy*

*Perhaps you could point out where I didn't back anything I said up in that post (in relation to the question) with a logical argument.*

If you are referring to the 'Ireland is Sinking' thread, you were asked to back up your assertions about the attractions of living in Ireland by actually listing a few. 
You couldn't or wouldn't. 
You were then told "You will not provide a list because you are not able to."
You responded: I did answer Elk...just not the way you wanted. I told you...*it's personal.*

*I am shocked by what you said about Muslims ELCid.*
There you go again with the _shock_ and _awe_ bit. Get over it.

*I'm beginning to think you're serious though in relation to Muslims.*

Congratulations!


----------



## piggy (2 Jun 2004)

*Re: Higgledy Piggledy*

Okay ELCid. Thanks for letting me know that you do indeed feel that way about Muslims. Hitler had similar views on the Jews by the way. I've no time for anyone who openly holds such views against an entire swathe of people because of their religious persuasions. Here I'll take my leave of this debate with you.


----------



## ElCid (2 Jun 2004)

*Off then?*

You'll be back...can't resist it.


----------



## Seamus (2 Jun 2004)

*Iraq*

Unfortunately Piggy has not a clue about the reality of the Muslim mindset, and she believes all the little scraps of propaganda she has been fed.  She should go and live in the middle east if she wants to learn a bit about it, or at least widen her mind to other sources of info. about the conflicts there.   Bin Laden loves people like her.


----------



## PeterPT (2 Jun 2004)

*Seamus*

I think you should listen to other posters views without jumping to absurd conclusions Seamus.
You don't strike me as a very balanced individual at all. Piggy has far more rounded views than you do.

Piggy's a he by the way....or did you know that already and were just trying to antagonise him?


----------



## PeterPT (2 Jun 2004)

*Trolling*

Instead of trolling Seamus maybe you should make some reasonable points and then argue them with people.


----------



## RevJamesFlynn (2 Jun 2004)

*Facts*

Hi ElCid,

You've made some provocative claims in this thread which, having done your homework, I'm sure you won't mind backing up with some facts and figures.

*This war will continue and the West will win, don't worry, because neither me nor most of the populations of the west will ever live under the fascist yoke of an Islamis state.*

Can you provide evidence of which Muslim organisations are proposing to turn Ireland and other Western Countries into Islamic states?  Can you provide evidence that those organisations are supported by a majority of Muslims?

*. . . how popular mister Bin Laden is in the general mislim population. I've seen children in those countries wearing T-Shirts emblazoned with his image and the burning towers pictured behind him.*

An interesting anecdote.  Can you provide evidence of what percentage of Muslims supported the World Trade Center attacks?

*Gods Rule on Earth. This is what OBL is actually fighting for quite proudly, and it is seen as a good and noble thing by ordinary muslims.*

Can you provide evidence of your assertion that most ordinary Muslims support OBL-style terrorist activities?

*Keep your Islamic beliefs to yourself and I'm happy to let you do as you wish. Try to force them on me and I'll fight you back*

Being an Irish-based website, I'm assuming you are living in Ireland.  Who exactly is forcing their Islamic beliefs on you today?

Regards,
James


----------



## Seamus (2 Jun 2004)

*Iraq*

Do not worry, the west will not bow down to Bin Laden and his buddies.  I think piggies extreme leftist views are very much in a minority.  On what is nearly the 60th anniversary of D-day, thank God for America and the UK for yet again being at the sharp edge of protecting us.


----------



## Peadar (2 Jun 2004)

*piggy's views*

Sorry Seamus. Gotta stop you there old chap. Piggy's views are far from being extreme. His points were balanced and valid. Care to discuss what problems you have with any of them. I have similar views. He seems to have a much stronger grip on reality than you do.
If you've nothing to add to this post other than waving your flag in everyone's face and make strange and ridiculous claims about other posters then I suggest you go elsewhere. Unless of course you're just a troll, hell bent on getting up people's noses. Your reply to this will tell us all that.


----------



## Paul (3 Jun 2004)

*.*

Sorry Peader , you seem to have the same exteme views as Piggy.   Please read some proper history, talk to people who have been to the middle east, or better still go there.  Please try to understand that while there are two sides to every story, there is good and evil.   You would appear to believe all the anti-western propoganda that you have been fed.  I suppose you believe Hitler was good as well ?     Piggy was even unaware of the fact that Saddams regime used to support the families of suicide bombings in Israel.    ( the victims of the bombers, not the families of the victims ).   Have you heard of the films showing torture in Saddams prisons.
Even those US troops who humiliated ( "tortured" ) their prisoners could not watch more than 5 minutes of it.  I do not condone what a few US troops did , but it was not done by ALL the Allied forces , and much worse happened under Saddams regime.


----------



## PeterPT (3 Jun 2004)

*Israel*

'Piggy was even unaware of the fact that Saddams regime used to support the families of suicide bombings in Israel'

I'm really sick of all this trolling and piggy bashing that's going on. I've read this entire post. Point out to us Paul where piggy did not know the above. Stop posting inaccurate tripe.


----------



## ELCid (3 Jun 2004)

*poor piggy wiggy*

Well, piggy seems to have disappeared forever so I think I've won. I'll be happy when all the Muslims in the world are dead and buried and the magnificant Americans are victorious. We'll beat all those who stand against us.

God Bless America.


----------



## Trevor (3 Jun 2004)

*re*

Quote:
Point out to us Paul where piggy did not know the above



At the top of the page he asked for proof. That seems fair enough. Back up your arguments and all that.

I've been watching this go on all day. I'd have to agree. There are some frickin weirdos on this website alright who have nothing better to do than give this guy a hard time for their own warped pleasure. I had no problem with anything he said. He also qualified every word of what he said. He certainly doesn' come across as anti-American, pro-Al Queda or anything that could be construed as extreme in my book.

The troll who's wasting everyone's time should go get a life and leave the rest of us to have some serious debate.


----------



## RevJamesFlynn (3 Jun 2004)

*ElCid*

Hi ElCid,

You've made some extraordinary claims, but have failed when challenged (so far) to back them up with any facts.

Please address the specific questions that were put to you.

Awaiting your reply,
James


----------



## purple (3 Jun 2004)

*Re.ElCid*

I agree that fundamentalist Islam is a dangerous force in the world but it is an abdication of reason in favour of base emotional fears to lump all Muslims into this pot.
Saudi Arabian Islam is a totally different thing to Bosnian Islam, just as the Christianity of the fundamentalist evangelical groups in the USA who oppose the teaching of Darwinian evolutionary principals in schools are a world away from the Christianity of most of the people in this country (or the rest of the US).
You are obviously an intelligent person and I don't like the personalised nature of the attacks on you, or by you, that now fill this thread. To me your opinions are intellectually lazy as they do not seek to properly target the source of your dislikes and fears.
For the record I also regard OBL and his ilk as fascists and would have George W and his gang over OBL any day.

I started this thread to focus on the dangerous nature of the "War on Terror" and how it can/could be used as an excuse to do things, and put in place policies, that would not be acceptable under normal circumstances.

The USA is a great country and on occasion I do find that Piggy can be just plane anti-American but his opinions are for the most part well thought out. That is not to say that I agree with them but they are based on what he thinks, not what he had been told to think.

As I said the USA is a great country but by the nature of it's size and power it does require watching with a critical eye.


----------



## piggy (3 Jun 2004)

*Re: Re.ElCid*

*The USA is a great country and on occasion I do find that Piggy can be just plane anti-American but his opinions are for the most part well thought out*

Hi purple,

I wasn't going to rejoin this debate for obvious reasons but I think I need to address that remark.

I am *NOT* anti-American. I am anti George Bush in that I feel he is a threat to the world. I am anti-Bush administration. Period. I have absolutely nothing against the American people. In the same way I have nothing against the people of Iraq.

I am just as opposed to all Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists and all injustice (which was my point all along)...but it seems in this debate that if you stand up against both you are branded some sort of leftie.


----------



## purple (3 Jun 2004)

*Re.Piggy*



> I am just as opposed to all Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists and all injustice (which was my point all along)...but it seems in this debate that if you stand up against both you are branded some sort of leftie.


 I form the impression that you can be anti-American on occasion because I see no real proportionality in your criticism of both. GWB is a saint in comparison to OBL. The impression I get in many of your postings there seems to be comparisons drawn between the misdeeds of both.  
As for being a leftie, I thing you have established that over numerous posts on many topics on AAM.
Anyway, what's wrong with that?


----------



## piggy (3 Jun 2004)

*Re: Re.Piggy*

*I form the impression that you can be anti-American on occasion because I see no real proportionality in your criticism of both*

Why does my criticism need to be proportional?

I've always taken it as a given that OBL and all Islamic fundamentalists were pretty bad. I don't really see the point in criticising them. They're quite obviously loonies.
I do see the point in criticising Bush's administration. Please stop saying I'm anti-American. How much clearer do I need to be. The reason I criticise Bush so much is because he is supposed to represent democracy in this world. I don't want any part in that type of democracy. And before all the weirdos come out of the closet again and start accusing me of going and living in a Muslim country, I'm quite entitled to my opinion.


*As for being a leftie, I thing you have established that over numerous posts on many topics on AAM.
Anyway, what's wrong with that?* 

I don't class myself as being leftist at all purple. I'm not anti-globalisation. I'm not anti-capitalist. I'm just anti-spin and anti-injustice. 
If I had to put myself somewhere I'd like to be sitting in the middle.

Ask yourself this. How many people are against the occupation of Iraq around the world? Would you class each and every one of them as being leftist?

I know a lot of people who are against the war but would have altogether right wing views on other domestic issues.


----------



## ElCid (4 Jun 2004)

*Piggy*

I told you you'd be back piggy.

ReverendJames, I suggest that if you want proof of the existence of the worldwide Islamic movements beliefs and intent that you just visit any 'moderate' Islamic website bulletin board and get reading. Its that simple. Educate yourself. 
If you are too lazy to inform yoursel then I don't see the point of wating my time doing it for you. Better from the 'horss mouth'.
Try tping 'Young Muslims UK' into Google and check out what modrate esternisd muslims are thinking. You'll be vey surprised.

PS I did not make the last post that appeared undr my name.


----------



## RevJamesFlynn (4 Jun 2004)

*Re: Piggy*

Hi ElCid,

You're not the only person on the planet to research this topic.

You have made several hate-filled, extremist claims on this website and provided zero evidence to back them up, even when challenged directly to do so. 

In the absence of any supporting facts, your claims are simple prejudice and therefore must be treated as worthless.

Regards,
James


----------



## Peadar (4 Jun 2004)

*Elcid*

Elcid's views are worthless cos hes a ******* nazi!

No one should tolerate those views. Are you a member of the BNP by any chance?


----------



## RevJamesFlynn (4 Jun 2004)

*Re: Elcid*

Er, Peadar, 

I don't think we need to accuse anyone of being a nazi just yet.

El Cid has made some extraordinary claims.  If he can back them up, then we should listen to him, and analyse his perspective.  Perhaps he is right.  He just hasn't provided any rational reason to believe his analysis just yet.

Accusing someone of being a "Nazi" doesn't get us anywhere.

Being a well-read person, I'm sure he will respond with some justification to the specific questions put to him in time.  If not, then we can draw our own conclusions.

Personally, I think he will rejoin the debate with some facts to back up the specific challenges made to him, but as yet we're stiill waiting.  

Regards,
James


----------



## LookAtIt (4 Jun 2004)

*Consider*

I'll admit I'm not very educated in this matter but one thing strikes me about fundamentalist religions (in general). Was the Roman Catholic church and the Pope not fundamentalist at the time of the Spanish Inquisition? Monty Python sketches aside that went on for over 350 years and why? Again, I'll admit I'm not fully educated but my take on it was that it was undertaken because there were multiple religions at the time (Catholicism, Islam, Protestantism and Judaism) and that a unification was needed to "purify the people of Spain".

Religious and political persecution.

It's still going on today. I can't remember the number of times I was beaten up and had crips-bags full of sick throw over me because I was a Protestant going to school in the inner (Dubblin) city. I used to live in fear waiting for the bus to take me home. Even now, my thirteen year old son is the black-sheep of the class because he was the only one not making his confirmation last weekend. Just because the Islam vs Jewish faith is getting a lot of press recently doesn't mean that the same crap is going on on our own doorstep. I'm only too glad of the ethnic diversity that's been recently experienced here in Ireland. At least our kids will grow up knowing that there's more to the world than white catholics. I read recently in the Sindo of someone who was out on Mauritius recently talking to a taxi driver. He said that there were 4 or 5 different religions on the island and everyone got on great - the problem would be if there was only 2 religions. In our case, that's denomoninations - Protestant and Roman Catholic.

I guess my overall point is that maybe the Middle East was left well enough alone (in their eyes). GWB has gone in trying to enforce democracy on a tradition that was not brought up on democracy. Democracy doesn't suit some countries. It might go right against our grain to see people beheaded or whipped. It goes against mine.

But some people want to see a New World Order where there is one rule of one thumb and that's it. That rule of thumb might advertise itself as being the way of freedom but only if you are willing to subscribe fully to it. Give up all your privileges so that you can be part of one global mode of control. GWB has alluded to it on several occasions. If there are any BitTorrent people out there you can look at the Misc/Documentaries section on www.suprnova.org to read more about police states and how the US government are bringing about an ethos that you should relinquish everything in the name of a safer country and a safer world. The irony is that you sacrifice your true freedom in the name of a freedom portrayed by the governemt. National ID cards etc. 

Entire towns are being taken over in the US for the purposes of 'training' troops to deal with containing and controlling peoples' movements. Curfews are enforced. Schools are being used for these exercises too.

So I don't believe that the War on Terror is a war on terror. I believe its more of a war on entities that threaten the norm as defined by the people that have grander delusions. And, in fairness, the majority probably subscribe to those sentiments - fair society, sharing wealth et al.

The news is a filtered medium. Don't believe everything you see on Sky. If you do that, then you're no more than the people who think that Ireland is a bomb ridden place occupied by the IRA and other warring factions. 

Don't let some commentator make your mind up about a country and how it's run. Let the people of that country make their own mind up. And if that 'mind' is that democracy is not the right way, good. Let them live with it. There seems to be this notion going around that democracy is the only way forward and that we should make use of our vote. But I'll start another thread about that. This is about the war on 'terrorism'.

Just like 'up the north' - it's not all IRA. I don't know how many three-letter abbreviation associations there are but there's more to it than you hear in the news. Too many times the blame is laid at the feet of Sinn Fein and IRA but there's oodles of them up there at it.

We've all seen recently that the US are bang out of order WRT treating prisoners. That's just in front of camera. I'm sure there's plenty more. And I'm sure the other side is probably as bad if not worse.

We only hear the news-worthy stuff coming out of the Iraq efforts and precious little about what's really going on. I'm not saying there aren't any positives but, if there are, we don't here about them.

So it's been a bit of rant more than anything else but I guess I'm saying that maybe there's a bigger agenda afoot. Maybe this whole oil/petrol price increase thing is hitting everyone in there pockets when it's just a makey-uppy issue just before the US elections and GWB will bring them down dramatically just before election time.

Watch Wag the Dog and you'll get an idea of how powerful the media is.


----------



## Peadar (4 Jun 2004)

*re Elcid*

Hey Rev,

You seem like an intelligent guy. What makes you think you'll get a reasonable answer from this guy considering the things he said. Read what he said. There's no other word for it.


----------



## Peadar (4 Jun 2004)

*Lefties*

The pope's anti war message


I suppose the pope's a leftie hippie too then!


----------



## ElCid (5 Jun 2004)

*?*

Hi Rev.
As a Rev I presume you are a Christian, so we're really on the same side.
If you really are a Rev you don't need me to explainy Christian values since you must therefore share them.

In defense of my comments...I don't consider them 'hate fillled', simply because all I've done is state the facts. I have no hatred in my heart. You are free to interpret or spin as you wish, but all I'm actually iterested in are facts, and I tend to find my muslim friends to be blunt about their beliefs. They are not ashamed to tell me, or my fellow westerners, that we are deeply wrong, faullty, heretical, and damned because of our rejection of the true faith of Islam! 

I'm amazed that you need 'further proof' of the intent of Islam when you already have numerous such open and honest (indeed blunt) examples of what Islam means to its adherents. We've seen at least three countries which can be said to have followed the teachings of Muhammed to the letter. They are:Iran, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia. Each of those countries has invoked Sharia Law as part of the full doctrine of the Islamic faith. This means the practice of barbarities such as stoning adulterers to death, public beheadings of homosexuals, public mutilations by severing hands or feet of thieves,  and the wholesale subjugation of women to the role of faceless and powerless chattels of their male dominated society.

Would you like to defend this religion as anything other than fascist by very nature.


----------



## AntiElCid (5 Jun 2004)

*Learning religions from boards *

Well well ElCid, so that is where you learned Islam from the bulletin boards. I would invite you to the Israeli boards to and you might even learn Judaism and become an expert in religions.  

Bottom line is you know nothing about Islam and all your comments about Islam being threat to west in centuries are rubbish without facts. When it suits you you can go back about what Islam did to your west but when it doesn't suit you you say it's an old story about what your christianity did in this world. If you add it all up I am sure your christianity was far cruel than Islam ever can be. Remember the crusades and the muslims and jews that you burn because they didn't convert? And now remember the Bush's crusade. 

Before you go on about Osama maybe you should have done some proper homework and find out who actually created this man and made him hate so much that he can drive planes to the buildings. Before you go on about Saddam you should also check that who put this man in power. Strangely I don't see any muslim country that interferes with any western politics unlike your west does. And why? Greed!! Pure greed because they have something that you don't have and you do all sorts to get your dirty hands on it regardless of what the cost is. For you, the $$$s in your pocket are more valuable than a human being getting killed to put those $$$s in your pocket. 

You can't state any facts because you know nothing about Islam and how people live in Middle East also in other Muslim countries. And west will win nothing against Islam as there is nothing to win, it is only people like you that likes throwing gas on fires and stiring $hit because they think they know things. West should learn keep things to themselves and stop interfering with other nations and just trade peacefully. I guess being peaceful wouldn't fill your pockets enough, ha ElCid?


----------



## ElFreakazoid (5 Jun 2004)

*ElCid*

Seriously, who lets these freaks out of their cells long enough to post on a messageboard?

Go back to your dark rock kid.


----------



## Paul (6 Jun 2004)

*Iraq etc*

I think antiEICid sounds like Bin Laden.   I think Eicid does back up his arguements, and the likes of antiEICid and piggy are just extreme muslims, or muslim fanatic travellers.  Thank God the west does not contain many people like them.  Bin Laden and his friends will only be happy when the west is all muslim.    They have said as much.    Saddam did pay ( when he was in power ) the families of suicide bombers, not their victims families.
Why does piggy and her head in the sand friends keep trying to tell us black is white ?    I am sure during WW2 
you would have being telling us Germany was right, simply because the UK and US were fighting it.


----------



## XXXAnother PersonXXX (6 Jun 2004)

*Re: Iraq etc*

Does OBL and his friends want all the West to be Muslim? I'd like to read the source.

Here is a list of OBLs demands:
1) End sanctions on Iraq.

2) No more infringements on Iraqi sovereignty (no more inspections, no fly zones, limits on their importation of weapons, etc). 

3) U.S. forces out of the Gulf region and Arabia. 

4) Palestinian control over "historic Palestine" (all of Israel). 

(Note that USA has withdrawn troops from Saudi Arabia, ended sanctions in Iraq and should be withdrawing from there soon. Nothing done on number four yet.)


----------



## ElCid (6 Jun 2004)

*Anti ElCid*

Hi antiElCid. 
Your spelling and grammar errors in that post, and the way you construct sentences, leads me to believe that English is not your first language. I  suspect you are one of our foreign guests, and probably a muslim given your comments.
I'm glad you made that post because I'm sure that your support for OBL has not gone unnoticed by our readers. Your comments, which attempt to excuse and justify the existence of Islamic terrorism just back up everything I've said about the mindset of even mainstream 'moderate' muslims. You are not doing your people any favours by your response.
Most ordinary Irish people have no axe to grind against muslims, and would be totally against the use of force in Iraq oe elsewhere, but yet your comments illustrate that Islam does not differentiate between the 'friendly west' and the aggressors. To you, we are all westeners and are collectively guilty for the 'crimes' of the west. This is why OBL and Al Qaeda have no difficulty with the concept of intentionally targetting innocent civilians in the west.

When Al Qaeda puts a bomb in Dublin and Piggy or his loved ones are killed, will you still be defending OBL on this BB?

You should read my earlier comments before assuming I 'learned about Islam' from a bulletin board. I lived in the ME and am well read on the subject. I will glady debate it with you if you wish.
Asalam Alaekum.


----------



## ElCid (6 Jun 2004)

*Crusades*

Incidentally, it has become de rigeur to describe the Crusades as a bad deed done by Christians. The actual fact is that Islamic armies had conquered large swathes of europe by force of arms befre the Crusads began. The Crusades came about when the Christian kings of europe finally united to drive back the invading Saracens, and they continued diving them back until they were pushed all the way to Jerusalem and beyond.
If it were not for the efforts of thos medieval Christian kings and their people the whole of euroe...indeed probably the whole world, would look more like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan today.

Islam ha ts own versin of Crusdes...we are now well fmiliar with the concept of JIHAD.


----------



## AntiElCid (6 Jun 2004)

*Islam and ElCid*

I don't beleive in gods and religions of any sort but I don't disrespect anyone like you and some others (maybe it is still you with all sorts of names) that have been posting, nor I support OBL or any terrorism or loss of civilian lives. US not only supported Saddam and OBL, they have also supported Venezuela's corrupt leader and took him down when they didn't like him. Guess what , he is back in power and probably be invaded by US when they finish with Iraq. One thing they have common is oil=$$$ for your pocket.

Now tell me, do you think your world is safer? Your war with terrorism caused more terrorism and killed many many more civilians. It is obvious you don't care about people is getting killed everyday in Afghanistan and Iraq. Maybe they are not human for you because they beleive in different god than you do and they live different. 

To me war with terrorism is not and probably will not be won because you don't even know who you are fighting with unlike going and attacking a nation. Look at the state of US now? they have lost their biggest and greatest fruit of Democracy which is freedom of movement, OBL probably scared them more than Russia did in cold war and probably first time in their history they don't feel safe on their homelands. Who to blame? No one but themselves and their politics, nothing to do with Islam or muslims. This is where you got the wrong end of the stick and totaly blinded. If Afghanistan ended in Talabans ends and fundamentalists this was another work of art from US to our world. They backed them up including OBL when Afghanistan was in war with Russia for decades and war over they didn't want to know. Left these people in a country of ruins which open the grounds for terrorists. 

Makes me wonder with your attitude how did you survive ME? why did you go there (if you did) if you don't like these people? I have been in many places in ME and i have never seen any friendly people as them. If you respect someone for what they are they respect you for what you are. 

For crusades, read the history again. They were a total failiure and your own fellow Christians were killed by your crusaders too. They were nothing more than pillagers, rapers and murderers. I am sure they wouldn't put that in your books. 

P.S before criticize my spelling, check your own.


----------



## AntiElCid (6 Jun 2004)

*To Paul*

I think you should take your head out of the sand get your facts. US has been paying Israel for decades, how better they are than Saddam? What does Israel do with the money? How do you think they build their army and what are they using it for? There are millions of Palestinians left homeless and living like rats in refugee camps because of Israel policy of land grabbing and forcing these people to leave their homelands so that they can bring the jews in. It is law in so called Israeli Democracy that any jew in the world can move to Israel and if they do they are given houses and lands also have rights to Israeli Passports and palestinians gets kicked out to make place for these people. 

Maybe you support these sort of terrorism? What is the difference you tell me, because I don't see any.


----------



## ElCid (6 Jun 2004)

*antiElCid*

Your views on the Crusades are  of course dictated by your own beliefs and prejudices. 

Answer me this...how did Moorish muslms come to rule most of Spain in the 13th - 14th century? How did they 'displace' the native Spanish people? 

How did the Ottoman armies lay seige to Vienna in the 17th century (a long time after the Crusades ended)? 

How did The Prophet Muhammed spread Islam throughout the Arabian peninsula and beyond in 650AD?

The answer to these questions is simple...BY FORCE OF ARMS.
Don't speak to me about the Crusades without speaking about the Jihadis of Islam. It is not a peaceful religion, but one with a bloody history, and it was revealed and led by a warrior from day 1.

The Israelis are totally wrong in what they've done to the Palestinian people, but I note that the neighbouring Arab countries have all refused to accept Palestinian refugees! They've had little help from their brother Arabs except weapons to kill Jews with, and money to pay for suicide bombings on Jews.

OBL was certainly supported by America. So was Saddam. It suited American foreign policy for a while. Unfortunately America has had little or no true understanding of Islamic fundamentalism until 9-11. I think they understand better now.

While there is no doubt that part of the reason for the interference in the ME is Oil, it is not a quetion of $$ as you say. It is much more serious than that. Oil is the driving force behind the world economy and unstable countries in the ME cannot be allowed to have a stranglehold on the worlds oil supplies. Westerners who bleat about American foreign policy would be the first to start squealing if the Islamists got control and turned off their lights and central heating in mid winter. 
Its comforting to be able to protest about Americas bad policies while knowing you'll be able to go back to your nice warm comfy home after the march, make a cup of tea and watch yourself being self righteous on TV.


----------



## AntiElCid (6 Jun 2004)

*Crusades to save Christianity blaaaaaaa*

Your views on the Crusades are nothing more than a comic book story. Read some here www.medievalcrusades.com/...sbegin.htm and do some more search. They have killed more Christians and Jews than they did muslims. It wasn't Muslim pillage the Constantinople Byzantium, it was your crusaders whom killed many christians in the city. In the course of history many empires came and gone, nothing to do with religion. If you read your medieval history you will also find that muslims brought many advantages to europe by means of science and technology of the time. Muslims never sent missionaries to convert people like christians did. Most of European nations that took control of nations in America, Africa and Asia weren't muslims were they nor they were angels. 

As for Ottomans, many of nations in Balkans joined the empire without wars escaping from christian brutality and you should be also thankful that they did lay siege on Vienna or else most of Europe would have been catholic or protestan now as those times catholics and protestants were no friends either. 

Islam is not much more bloody than Christianity, It wasn't muslims that started WW 1 and Hitler wasn't muslim, nor Mussolini nor Lenin, nor Stalin nor Bush. It wasn't muslims that wiped out Incas and American Natives, it wasn't muslims that killed 10s of millions of people in 2 World wars, it wasn't muslim that slaved Africa so what are you talking about?

At least we agree on one thing so far so good. Yes not only America but the world is starting to understand Islamic fundamentalism but what questinable is the way the all thing is handled. We all backed up the idea of going Afghanistan and wiping out the terrorist camps but using Iraq for war on terrorism was wrong and just opened another front to the terrorists. Not all people fighting Iraq are Iraqis. 

As for Israel, it was not that Arab countries refused palestinians, it was palestinians that did not want to leave, after all if they have left they would have no chance of going back and why should they leave their homes because of Israel's one sided policies? 80% of Israeli jews are from different parts of the world. Displacing people to replace with others is an ethnic cleansing. Not all palestinians in refugee camps are muslims either, there are christians too. I recommend that you should go Israel and if you are not a jew or look like a jew you will see that at the airport all the jews will be walking without checks and you with other non jews will be questioned for hours, regardless if you are muslim or christian. Go see yourself, not a pleasant experience. Took me 6 hours to pass the Taba border while hundreds just walked by and few other with me left waiting and questined even though I was in Israel before. I understand security but being racist is another thing.

Oil oil black gold. Sorry but it is not a question of anything else other than $$$s and politics and elections. Why do we pay double the price the US pays for oil? Why does Americans need to go around V6s and V8s and we go around 1Lt shopping trolleys? Sorry but they are wasting the world resources and adding extra $ on oil prices is loosing an election there. Also countries in ME are not unstable, that is what you think and if they are it is us that making them so. As I said earlier we should learn to trade peacefully without interfering with these people's lives. If they live like that so let them, it is none of our bussiness how they live or want to live. If they don't want democracy so what? Let them rule themselves as it suits them and as it suits their beleives. If you think you are saving the people there before you do so look around the world and see other brutal regimes too and not all are muslims either.


----------



## Paul (6 Jun 2004)

*Iraq wtc*

I think antiEICid has a very warped and dangerous view of history and politics.   Along with his / her numerous grammar and spelling mistakes , it points to the conclusion that he / she is indeed from a Muslim background , despite what he or she may say to the opposite.   Let us say that antiEICid is male.  I cannot believe he is a native English speaker.

He says Israel is supported financially / paid by America , and uses this as justification for neighbouring Arab states to pay for suicide bombers in Israel.     Well, Ireland is supported financially by America ( what would our economy be like if it was not for all the American factories here etc etc ) ..... does that justify a jihad against non-Muslims here ?    Israel is a democracy, unlike its Muslim neighbours.     If it is so bad, why do the Palestinians not go to their Arab neighbours? 

He says why do we pay double the price consumers in the US pay for oil ?   It is mainly because of taxes in Europe,  old chap.   I dread to think the price we in the west would all pay for oil if Bin Laden and his comrades got control of the middle east oil reserves.  

AntiEICid is correct in one thing, though.   Not all brutal regimes in the world were / are muslim.   He is correct when he says Hitler and Mussolini were not Muslim.  They were catholic.    However, I think it fair to say that the most democratic countries in the world today are not Muslim ; and many Muslim countries are not very democratic, industrious or prosperous.  If it were not for oil I do not know where they would be.   I do not care what Muslims do, as long as they do not come and interfere in our western lives / society.


----------



## AntiElCid (6 Jun 2004)

*Oil=$$$=innocent lives*

Paul, I am not going to use the spelling check for you and I can assure you my spelling is far better than yours, you can check my spellings and you will see that most of the errors are not using capitals in words like "muslims". I am not a native English speaker, there are other languages in the world too you know. Unless you think only native English speakers have rights to speak in Ireland. Otherwise excuse my grammar and spelling while keeping your stupid conclusions to yourself. My background is catholic and a very strict one but I do not believe it by my own choice. Even if it was Muslim background what different it makes. Most of my debates are against hating people because of their religions and using religion to brainwash people so they can have comments like yours and ElCid's. You too sound no better than OBL and his pals. It happens in every religion, regardless you are muslim, christian or jew. 

When did Palestinians have a jihad against non-muslims here or anywhere? Are IRA or ETA muslims? They have been around longer than any other terrorists. Why doesn't catholics leave NI and move here? How would you like to see UK driving catholics out and bringing in more protestants to NI? In your logic you can find this acceptable too, if not why is Palestinians any different to you? You tell me now, why should Palestinians leave their homes to make room to other people that Israel wants to move in? If I walk in your house and throw you out leave you with nothing, would you like it? would you just walk away?  

Muslims did not come and interfere with your lives / society, it is you that trying to control them. As I said maybe they don't want to be democratic, industrious or prosperous maybe they are happy as they are. And it is none of our business if they don't want to live like us, why is it so hard for you to accept this and get on with your life? 

As for your oil debate, what if you pi$$ off all of ME and they turn against you? This is what my debate is about, if you don't like them for what they are one day they will turn around and tell you to f off. Its their oil, they don't have to sell it to you, but sorry my mistake they do have to sell it to you or else west will come and get you. We can always invade Saudi Arabia with using War on Terrorism excuse or invade Iran because they are fundamentalist and don't like us and list goes on. You like it or not they will make any excuse to fill their pockets and keep your car going.


----------



## RonanMoore (7 Jun 2004)

*Paul*

You have got to be THE most stupid poster who's ever bothered to post on this topic. 


Go read what people have said. You're an Idiot!


----------



## piggy (7 Jun 2004)

*Re: Iraq etc*

Paul,

*and the likes of antiEICid and piggy are just extreme muslims, or muslim fanatic travellers*

I am not a muslim. I have stated this in this post already if you'd care to read it.

What on earth is a "muslim fanatic traveller"? Is this some made up term you've penned yourself? Please enlighten us all as to what it means.

*Why does piggy and her head in the sand friends keep trying to tell us black is white ? I am sure during WW2 
you would have being telling us Germany was right, simply because the UK and US were fighting it.*

As already stated I'm a man Paul. If you'd actually bothered to read this post you'd have discovered that.

No...I doubt I would've told anyone that Hitler was right. Bit of a difference mind you between World War 2 and Iraq. 

Anyway, whenver you've 'come down' from those XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX you've been taking you might read the post. It's not that hard really. You read the first word, followed by the next word and then the next. You get the idea. While you're reading each word try your best to remember the previous ones too. That way you eventually build up some idea about what people are saying. If that's too difficult for you I can record my voice on a tape and send it to you via post.

Now, please feel free to rant like a luny and make absolutely no sense. Sure if it didn't make a difference up 'til now why should it matter eh?


----------



## Paul (7 Jun 2004)

*Iraq*

Well, AntiEICid / RonanMoore ( perhaps you are one and the same ? ) I think some of what you say is correct but much of your reasoning and analogies are incorrect.  

You ask when did Palestinians have a jihad ? Have not the leaders of some Palestinian groups orders suicide bombers to destroy Israel, and do many / most Palestinians want the destruction of Israel.   Who was it that wanted all Jews pushed back in to the sea? Do you hate the Jews too because you are a Catholic ?    I do not hate the Jews, or Catholics, or any religion, but you have the neck to accuse me of being no better than OBL ( Bin Laden presumably ) and his friends. I do not have to take this insult from a non-national.    I did not insult you in your posts, and I expected the same courtesy in return.

Regarding spellings, even if you cannot spell, run a spell check and you will see who is correct.   It will not correct grammar though.

You ask are IRA or ETA Muslims ?   What difference does it make. I am not a member of either IRA or ETA, and I am not an admirer of either group either - far from it. The UVF are not Muslims.   The Mafia are not Muslims.   So what?   

You ask why do Catholics not leave Northern Ireland and move here ?   ( South of the border ).   If you do not know that, if you cannot understand that,  I think you have not much experience of Northern Ireland my friend.
I have many friends in Northern Ireland from both traditions there. Many Catholics I know there wish to remain part of the UK.   A few I know have gone to live in England, most continue to work in N.I. and get on well with their Protestant neighbours and friends. 

I am afraid you have a totally one sided view of Israel , to such an extent that I really feel sorry for you.  It is not me who hates other races, but you.

You say Muslims did not come and interfere with your lives / society.   What about 9/11, Bali and the other numerous attacks?   What about the mass migration that is changing our societies in the west?   Are there not 2 million Muslims in the UK now ?    If they do not like our society , why do they come and live here ?
When our wives and children are being blown up by cowardly suicide bombers, is it not time for some thought on the subject ?


----------



## RonanMoore (7 Jun 2004)

*Paul*

Perhaps you're ELCid/Zeus.

You're an unregistere user. How do we know you're not all the one person?


----------



## Paul (7 Jun 2004)

*Iraq*

RonanMoore, I am an unregistered user, not an unregistere user.  The fact that you can hardly put a long word together, never mind a few sensible sentences, lead me to the conclusion that you are probably antiEICid.     I can assure you I am the one and only Paul.  I have no need to hide behind other identities.   And even if I did , so what?   If you do not like my argument , do you want to cut off my tongue or stone me to death ?    I am glad to live in a country where there is free speech , unlike many Islamic countries.


----------



## Marion (7 Jun 2004)

*re*

Well, I'm glad to hear you're the one and only paul...

Yes Paul...I want to stone you to death!! Everybody who thinks that the war on terror is a farce or that the occupation of Iraq is wrong wants to stone you and your catholic buddies to death. 

"You're either with us or against us".

[Edited ...

Please abide by the posing guidelines:

Please be civil - avoid causing offence:

Controversy and argument are welcome. But please keep your comments civil. Attack an opinion by all means, but please don't attack the person expressing the opinion
Thanks, Marion]


----------



## RonanMoore (7 Jun 2004)

*re*

I might have left a letter off the end of a word paul but what's a muslim fanatic traveller?

At least I don't make s**t up.


----------



## RonanMoore (7 Jun 2004)

*Marion's edit*

It's called sarcasm and irony. Paul was the one who brought up the subject. I was talking 'bout what we know the American's are at.


----------



## t (7 Jun 2004)

*unregistered users*

Paul. People use multiple personas to back up their arguments all the time.

It's easy. I reckon you're Zeus for sure.


----------



## RonanMoore (7 Jun 2004)

*Paul's views*

Oh and before you go falsely accusing other posters of being Muclim fanatic travellers (I know still makes no sense sure it doesn't...no matter how many times you say it) take a look at your own beliefs.

You believe that America are protecting themselves against terror. They created it in the first place. They create Osama. They created Saddam. They armed Saddam when it suited them and turned a blind eye to what they knew he was doing...just like they turn a blind eye to what Israel are doing today. Get real. It's about power. It's about colonialism, not democracy.


----------



## RonanMoore (7 Jun 2004)

*typos*

And before you point them out, yes...there's a few typos in my post. I can't edit it.


----------



## ElCid (7 Jun 2004)

*Facts and Myths about Islam*

AntiCid:


> Your views on the Crusades are nothing more than a comic book story. Read some here www.medievalcrusades.com/...sbegin.htm and do some more search.



I followed your link, and about half way down the page I read the following regarding religious persecution by Crusaders: *Let it be noted that the Church did not condone this. Bishops locally preached against this, and some were attacked for their preaching. The Bishop of Spier saved many lives, but at Worms the Bishop was driven from his home and the Jews he sheltered were slaughtered.*

Now, compare this to the modern approach of the Mullahs and Ayatollahs who preach a doctrine of hatred and terrorism. You'll have heard of Abu Hamza, the Imam at Finnsbury mosque in London who encourages his supporters to murder westerners. Also you'll have heard how Muqtada Al Sadr in Iraq has told his followers to capture female westerners and take them as slaves! Now there's a modern thinker. 

When I worked in Saudi Arabia we soon learned to avoid walking the streets after Friday prayers because the anti western hatred would be at its worst then. The worshipers leaving the mosques would be whipped up into a frenzy of hatred by their 'religious leaders' sermons.

Speaking of Saudia by the way...you mention Islamic tolerance and friendliness, and respect for others beliefs. Please explain why it is that muslims are allowed to practice their religion in the West, and yet in the 'tolerant' heartland of Islam the Saudis ban Bibles, Churches, Crucifixes, and any form of Christian worship. Punishable by imprisonment and physical abuse.

You say in an earlier post that you "don't beleive in gods and religions of any sort". Perhaps if you had some beliefs you could understand better the difference between modern Christianity and Islam. Christianity is a religion founded on the teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately. He said, when someone strikes you on the cheek...you turn the other cheek to them. *In other words a religion of peace and humility.* 
If so called 'Christians' fail to follow the teachings of their church then they are no longer fit to call themselves Christian. A Christian is one who follows Christs teachings!

On the other hand, the Koran states clearly, time and again, if a muslim is attacked in that manner then it is his duty to KILL the agressor. *In other words, a religion that preaches intolerance and arrogance.*

This difference is important because it forms the very basis on which OBL and his followers build the case for their Jihad. 



> If you read your medieval history you will also find that muslims brought many advantages to europe by means of science and technology of the time.



This is another great myth. It is true that medieval muslims had some great scholars, but it is widely recognised by historians that their knowledge came from their studies of ancient Greek scholars. There was little, (if any) original thinking. One can still see this fundamental flaw in Islamic society when you observe how, even given all the wealth of their oil rich lands, the Saudis (and many other Islamic states) have not got the technical expertise to run their economies without the help of western or asian workers and technicians. Which Islamic state is recognised worldwide for technical innovation or advancement? What great scientific discoveries have the muslims made in the last hundred years? Your Islamic Universities are not places of learning...but places of brainwashing...the main study is how to memorise the Koran word for word! 



> Muslims never sent missionaries to convert people like christians did.



Wrong. The 'prophet' muhammed converted the whole Saudi peninsula to his new religion by force of arms.
Heres a little history:



> Muhammad encountered severe opposition to his preaching by residents of Mecca who felt threatened because Islam undermined their pagan idols.
> 
> As Muhammad's opponents in Mecca - including one of his uncles, Abu Lahab, who was among his worst enemies - began to organize to bring about an end to his prophecy, Muhammad withdrew with many of his followers to Medina in September of 622 CE. This migration is called the Hijra, and its year is used to establish the Muslim calendar; The year 622 CE is the year 1 A.H. (Annus Hegirae).
> After three major *battles* and one last battle with Mecca, almost all Arabia fell to Muhammad in 630.
> ...


<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

I don't quite understand this passage, but if you are suggesting europe was better off for the invasion by Islam I think you must be joking. Or insane.
It's also worth mentioning that, as far as contributions to european society are concerned, the year 1492 was the year the Christian king and queen Ferdinand and Isabella finally expelled the Moorish muslims from Spain, and it was that same year that the king and queen bank rolled a certain 'Christopher Columbus' to sail off in search of new lands to the west. 
He discovered America! Great timing!! 



> As for Israel, it was not that Arab countries refused palestinians, it was palestinians that did not want to leave,



The Swedish foreign ministry carried out a documented study into the Palestinian refugee problem in 2000. 
What did they find?
Which country excludes Palestinians from social services, bars them from the right to work or to start up their own businesses, closes professions to them, prevents them from owning property without special permission, bars them from receiving travel papers, forbids them from entering state schools and greatly limits the possibility of receiving hospital  treatment? 
Is it Israel? 
No - it's  Lebanon. 
All Arab countries except Jordan have refused to grant Palestinians citizenship, including first and second-generation children in the new country. In addition, Syria bars Palestinians from owning agricultural land, while freedom of movement is restricted and political rights limited. In Egypt, Palestinians have difficulties obtaining travel documents and work permits.
Kuwait carried out ethnic cleansing of Palestinians,expelling 350,000 in 1991,
while Libya got rid of 20,000 in 1995. 

Meanwhile the Arabs blame 'The West' for the Palestinians situation.



> I recommend that you should go Israel and if you are not a jew or look like a jew you will see that at the airport all the jews will be walking without checks and you with other non jews will be questioned for hours, regardless if you are muslim or christian.



Sorry to say, but that seems normal given the fact that Palestinians are prone to blowing themselves up in public places! Go to any airport in the US or Europe and you'll see everyone treated with suspicion on the same level...thanks to Islamic terrorism.

Finally, regarding Oil again.
America has left Saudia alone to run its own business for many years now, and what resulted? A bunch of playboy tyrants who robbed their own people of their wealth but fed them a diet of anti western hatred and Islamic fundamentalism...which is now backfiring on them.
What will replace the House of Saud if America stays out of Arabia and lets OBL win his victory in Saudia? You know very well...a fundamentalist, west hating regime with OBL at its head. Maybe OBL likes money and power as much as you think we westerners do! And when he has control of the Saudi oil fields and his grip around the balls and throat of the western world...you think he won't start to squeeze? HARD!?
Wise up.


----------



## AntiElCid (7 Jun 2004)

*War on Terror goes on*

Yes ElCid Christianity is a religion founded on the teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and one of the ten commandments is Thou Shall not Kill, yet Christianity killed many more than any other religion did and still continues to kill. Talking about how barbaric Muslims are, you should also look what is Christians doing and decide. Most countries in ME are sanctioned by West and left to their own fates with the loss of many lives and you expect them to believe you? West is quick enough to sanction Iraq and Syria from rubbish claims and yet they can not do the same for Israel while they continue their ethnic cleansing. These people are not stupid to see your ambitions and double standards. That is where the brainwashing comes which leads to terrorism because you create the reasons for them and turn your back ignoring actual facts while trying to twist on the truths and cause more hate in both societies. Jews in Israel are just as brainwashed as Palestinians there and sadly some Christians are just as brainwashed as Muslims. 

As for Muslim missionaries, why don't you read the other side of the story instead of gathering your facts from Christian media? Of course they will make their own stories so will Muslims. Islam wasn't accepted and was a threat to many empires and leaders of the tribes in the Arab peninsula, just like This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wasn't accepted by people of the time. You have to choice, get slaughtered or fight back? Do you also know that the rulers of Mecca tried to kill Muhammad and his followers many times, do you also know that they were chased all the way to kingdom of Ethiopia where Ethiopian king of time refused the hand them to Meccans after he heard about Holy Mother Mary from one of the Muhammad's followers from Koran? If you think Islam was so cruel, how did so many churches and synagogue are still standing after hundreds of years? Go to Balkans and count how many mosques you will find after 500-600 years of Ottoman rule. Also when your great Christian Spaniards were killing and torturing many Jews and gypsies it was Ottomans that open their arms to these people. There were many Jews and Christians in the Ottoman government for many centuries. Don't be blinded with one sided stories, look around and you will see many conflicts, no one know to truth. If we did we wouldn't be discussing it here.

How nice of Columbus found America to slaughter millions in the name of Christianity and greed. Before Columbus and knew where he was Piri Reis (An Ottoman Turk Sailor) had a map of Americas www.world-mysteries.com/sar_1.htm 1513. You can guess how long it would have taken to draw that map with the conditions hand hard sailing of those years. I guess  western media would not like to know this fact either.

As for me not believing religions or simply put being Atheist doesn't stop me reading about religions. It is better to not take any sides, believe me makes you understand better. We are all humans after all.

Finally, since the topic is about War with terrorism and seeing all the recent events in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and other places do you still think you are winning this war? To me it looks like west is creating more terrorists than there was before. I am sure Iraqis and Saudis are blaming the terrorism to West now. As I said before all West did was to open more loopholes for terrorist to exploit and we are yet to see how these loopholes will be closed. You go and invade Iraq and OBL goes and brainwashes many more people with ideas of West is after their oil and recruits more. So who is winning?

Isn't boards great and educational  
Have a nice peaceful day all.


----------



## AntiElCid (7 Jun 2004)

*To Paul*

Paul, it is not me accusing you and if I did I apologise, it was you going around accusing people of being Muslim terrorists or fanatic travellers. Looks like anyone doesn't agree with you are terrorists.

If you can understand the situation in North so well why is it hard to understand the situation in Israel? I have asked you if UK did remove the Catholics from their homes in North and move something like 2-3 million Protestants by taking their homes, lands and maybe killing your parents, brothers, sisters and friends while puts you behind walls and leave you with no control of anything, do you accept that? Unfortunately this is what's going on in Israel. No one likes to see people getting blown up by suicide bombers but do you enjoy seeing 13 year old kids being taken down by snipers or missiles thrown into crowds blowing few people up?


----------



## Jesus Christ (7 Jun 2004)

*Catholicism*

ELCid,

Before you go throwing stones at Islam, perhaps you should learn a little more about the sham that is catholicism. If you're catholic you believe that This post will be deleted if not edited immediately is the son of God. he is not. He is a real historical figure who was married to Mary Magdalene.
The Church has been fooling people into believing in this since the days of Constantine. Catholicism is merely an amalgamation between Paganism and the cult of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately.


----------



## ElCid (7 Jun 2004)

*Islam*



> Yes ElCid Christianity is a religion founded on the teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and one of the ten commandments is Thou Shall not Kill, yet Christianity killed many more than any other religion did and still continues to kill.



Thius is totally wrong again.
*Christianity* continues to kill? Where?
Muslims cannot understand the separation between religion and politics, simply because in their own world there *is no* division between them. America is *not* a Christian country! America is a * secular Western* country where a lot of people who call themselves Christian live...thats all. George Bush did not say he was invading Iraq to bring Christianity to that country! 
Only Islam still believes in Holy War.



> As for Muslim missionaries, why don't you read the other side of the story instead of gathering your facts from Christian media? Of course they will make their own stories so will Muslims. Islam wasn't accepted and was a threat to many empires and leaders of the tribes in the Arab peninsula, just like This post will be deleted if not edited immediately wasn't accepted by people of the time. You have to choice, get slaughtered or fight back? Do you also know that the rulers of Mecca tried to kill Muhammad and his followers many times, do you also know that they were chased all the way to kingdom of Ethiopia where Ethiopian king of time refused the hand them to Meccans after he heard about Holy Mother Mary from one of the Muhammad's followers from Koran?



Muslim missionaries? I thought you told us earlier there were no such things as muslim missionaries...now you say there are. Make your mind up!
Islam does not use missionaries in the way Christianity does...Islam uses the sword to convert, I've already proven that. You now say that Islam 'had to fight back' because no one wanted to accept it. Is that the way of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately? Did he 'fight back' when the Romans came to take him from Gethsamane and crucify him?



> If you think Islam was so cruel, how did so many churches and synagogue are still standing after hundreds of years?



*THERE IS NOT A SINGLE CHURCH>>>OF ANY RELIGION EXCEPT ISLAM>>>STANDING TODAY ANYWHERE IN SAUDI ARABIA.*



> To me it looks like west is creating more terrorists than there was before.


There will always be terrorism as long as there is Islam because it is at the heart of its teachings to KILL all unbelievers.

And JC, before you criticise catholicism, you should cop on that the works of a few in the Catholic church has got nothing to do with the politics of America or Israel. I'm not here to defend the Catholic church, the issue is the global political order, not your local parish priest.


----------



## Jesus Christ (7 Jun 2004)

*re America is not Christian*

ELCid,

Perhaps you missed all those speeches where Bush said that God was "on our side"? He spoke to his troops with those words. He addressed the entire nation with those words. How much more open do you need him to be?

He is a deeply devout catholic. This is his war.


----------



## Jesus Christ (7 Jun 2004)

*re*

And JC, before you criticise catholicism, you should cop on that the works of a few in the Catholic church has got nothing to do with the politics of America or Israel. I'm not here to defend the Catholic church, the issue is the global political order, not your local parish priest.


I'm not talking about your local catholic priest. I'm talking about the whole basis upon which christianity is based upon.




There will always be terrorism as long as there is Islam because it is at the heart of its teachings to KILL all unbelievers.


There will always be terrorism as long as there is injustice and as long as America unswervingly backs Israel and colonises other countries.


----------



## AntiElCid (7 Jun 2004)

*Re:Comment*

ElCid, are you very blind? It was Bush that used the word "crusade" to describe his anti-terror campaign www.uscrusade.com/usterror/180920014.htm back in 2001. Don't tell me it was a mistake, he is not a some street boy but he is the President of USA and he is Christian. 
There is no such a thing Holy War unless you and likes of you doesn't stop using religions as an excuse to destroy each others, be Muslim, Jew or Christian. 

When I said "As for Muslim missionaries" I was answering your post, I didn't say there were missionaries. There wasn't and there will not be, Islam doesn't send anyone to convert anyone like Christians did in America, Africa and Asia. If Islam was to convert everyone by use of sword then tell me how come majority of people in Greek, Bulgaria, Romania, Bosnia and other countries in Balkans as well as Armenia and other countries that have ruled are not Muslims? Surely if they were converting these people as you think they would have been Muslims today. 

Why are you always basing Islam to Saudi Arabia? Is it because your were there? I understand that fact but if you hated that much what were you doing there? Were you a missionary? I know there are still a lot of Christian missionaries in Muslim countries and they are still trying to convert people. Islam is not only about Saudi Arabia, go to Turkey a secular state and tell me if those people are terrorists too because they are Muslims. Turkey attracts millions of foreign tourists whom are not Muslims. But by your logic if you go to Turkey you get killed because they are Muslim and they are out to get you.


There will always be terrorists as long as there are people like you that accuses over a billion of people for their believing and calls them cold blooded terrorists and ignores the fact that your fellow Christians drops all sorts of bombs on these people and you think that is right. Grow up.


----------



## ElCid (7 Jun 2004)

*Islam*

JC, I watched a program about D-Day last night where they interviewed German as well as British soldiers who fought on the beaches. Both the German and British soldiers related how they prayed to God for help and victory.

Everybody thinks God is on their side. 

As I said in an earlier post, when it comes to killing, God is on nobodies side.

Bush (just like Osama) may choose to invoke Gods name, but he is not Gods representative on earth, nor does he represent Christianity. Try to get your head around the difference. 

Likewise AntiCid. Bush said he's on a crusade? Bush trips over his tongue every time he opens his mouth. If he is on a crusade, where is the worldwide support of the Christian churches and leaders for his actions? He does not represent Christianity. The Pope just berated him, to his face and in public for his behaviour. 

I've yet to hear any muslim cleric berate Osama Bin Laden in public, to his face, for his Jihad against innocent western civilians. That won't happen, because as we can see from your comments, its OK to criticise the west for the mess in the ME because its all their fault and that means they deserve to die, and Islam is a religion that provides rewards in heaven for those who kill in its name. 72 Virgins isn't it? and rivers flowing with wine!



> If Islam was to convert everyone by use of sword then tell me how come majority of people in Greek, Bulgaria, Romania, Bosnia and other countries in Balkans as well as Armenia and other countries that have ruled are not Muslims?



Simple answer...they resisted. As I would if you tried to use a gun to convert me. 

Sudan is currently being racked by a war led my their Islamic leaders against the Christian minority which they want to exterminate. The same is happening in the northern states of Nigeria.



> Islam is not only about Saudi Arabia, go to Turkey a secular state and tell me if those people are terrorists too because they are Muslims. Turkey attracts millions of foreign tourists whom are not Muslims. But by your logic if you go to Turkey you get killed because they are Muslim and they are out to get you.



The secularism of Turkey is under threat by the rising tide of Islamism.
Read this:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world...402927.stm

As to visting Turkey, here's what the UK Foreign Office advice is:

*There is a high threat from terrorism in Turkey. There have been a number of recent terrorist incidents, including bomb attacks in Istanbul on 15 and 20 November 2003, which caused a large number of deaths and casualties. We urge you to be vigilant in all parts of the country.*

www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Fr...3618386532

Here's what happened to a bunch of western tourists visiting that other 'secular' Islamic country, Egypt: 



> Attack on tourists in Egypt leaves 71 dead. Shootings 'won't be the last,' militants say.
> [broken link removed]



Would I recommend visiting an Islamic country now?
Definitely not.
Would I go there myself?
Certainly not.

By the way, when I was in the ME it was because I was working and being paid for it, and when I took the post I (like most westerners) knew so little about what really goes on there. I know now. You couldn't pay me enough to even consider going back.

Lastly, I don't think its right for anyone, muslim or christian to drop bombs. As a wise man once said, you'll never persuade someone he's wrong by killing his children. Which is why Bush does not speak for me, any more than Bin Laden.


----------



## Colada (7 Jun 2004)

*JC*



> There will always be terrorism as long as there is injustice....



Are you endorsing terrorism as the solution to injustice then? Some people feel disgruntled whatever you do for them. Your cure for their sense of 'injustice' is terror?
Looks like this will be a long fight then, eh?



> ...and as long as America unswervingly backs Israel and colonises other countries.



If America left Israel to the tender mercy of the Arabs there would be an immediate major war which would quickly end in nuclear conflagration of the whole region.

America tried to promote a peaceful solution. Yasser Arafat walked out of the talks over the single minor issue of who owns Jerusalem. The present conflict is the direct result.


----------



## Tizona (7 Jun 2004)

*Islam + Osama want Spain back!*

*History points finger at revenge for lost Moor kingdom
By Isambard Wilkinson in Madrid
(Filed: 13/03/2004) *


New forensic evidence on the bombings has raised an uncomfortable question for Spaniards. Is Osama bin Laden dreaming of exacting revenge for the loss of Al-Andalus, the ancient Moorish kingdom in Iberia?

A group close to bin Laden's al-Qa'eda network, the Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, sent a message to a London-based Arabic newspaper explaining the reasons for attacking Spain.

"This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader and America's ally in its war against Islam," the statement said.

While the authentiticy of the message is open to doubt, there is no question that it reflects the thinking of Islamists, who hold that any land which has once been part of the Muslim community should forever remain under Muslim rule.

At the beginning of the 11th century, three quarters of Spain's population was Muslim but, as soon as the Catholic monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella completed the reconquest of the country for Christianity, the Muslims were ordered out.

The humiliation has never been forgotten in the Arab world.

The sense of hurt has grown since Spain, for decades a friend of the Arab world, backed the US-led war on Iraq, despite vast domestic opposition.

A dozen al-Qa'eda-linked suspected terrorists have been arrested in Spain from among its burgeoning community from North Africa.

Bin Laden has identified Spain as a worthy target, and the "settling of old accounts" will send a tingle down many an old Spaniard's spine. Bin Laden gave warning that Spain would be singled out for attack in a taped message released last October through al-Jazeera, the Arab satellite channel.

He said Spain would be among six nations considered "special" targets for its role in the Iraq war. Bin Laden has also spoken of Al-Andalus, regarded with nostalgia by Islamists as the halcyon age of Muslim power and artistic achievement.

The tale of the "Moor's last sigh" is recounted to epitomise the loss of one of the Islamic world's great jewels.

When King Boabdil fled the city of Granada, the last bastion of Moorish rule, he looked back and wept. His mother chided him with words that have sent a painful message down through the ages to Muslims: "Do not weep like a woman for what you could not defend like a man."

Moorish armies from North Africa conquered the Iberian Peninsula in the 8th century and transformed the region into an integral part of the Muslim umma, or nation.

The year 1492, when Granada was ceded to Ferdinand and Isabella, is a talismanic date for some Islamist scholars who consider it as the beginning of the decline of the Muslim world which continues to this day.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/...usy213.xml


----------



## Believer (7 Jun 2004)

*Islam*

Anti ElCid, could you please answer each of these 10 questions for me? I'm curious about these points.

1. Why are there no Churches allowed in Saudi Arabia?
2. Why are Bibles and Crucifixes banned in Saudi Arabia?
3. Why is there no Freedom of Religion in Saudi Arabia
4. Why is Christian proselytising banned in Islamic countries?
5. Why is conversion to other religions banned by Islam?
6. Why do muslims have no freedom to choose their faith, other than Islam?
7. Why does Islams' Paradise reward men by giving them 72 virgins, in a religion which punishes fornication?
8. Why does Islams' Paradise reward men with rivers of wine, in a religion which bans alcohol? 
9. Why did the founder of Islam preach violence and war against non muslims?
10.Why is a muslim subject to punishment by death if he criticises Muhammed or the Koran?


----------



## Isabella (7 Jun 2004)

*Islamic Bigotry*

While the Qur’an does say, "There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256), many Qur’anic scholars insist that, in its context, this verse has nothing to do with not forcing non-Muslims to submit to the rule of Islam. 

Many also teach that this "no compulsion" verse was abrogated (2:106) and replaced by the later and more numerous verses that say things like:
* "Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and hypocrites and deal rigorously with them." (9:73) 
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme." (8:39) 
"Fight against such of those ... who ... do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (9:29)*

In Muhammad’s day, conquered Jews and Christians who did not convert to Islam were allowed to live, *provided they paid jizya, a "protection" tax. Pagans were only given the choice to convert or die.*

This was the "peace" offered by 7th century Islam. To this day, in every country where Islamic law (Shari’a) is embraced, non-Muslims (and women) are treated as second-class citizens. 

Freedom of religion is forbidden. For a Muslim to "apostatize" means, at the very least: severe harassment, or worse: imprisonment, torture and death.

Those are the facts.


----------



## AntiElCid (8 Jun 2004)

*To Beleiver*

Beleiver I never said I am an expert on Islam nor muslims nor I am an expert on any other religion and I am by no means defending any religion here, that is beyond topic but ElCid and few others comes up to blame all to one thing which is Islam and accusing muslims to be terrorists including myself and few others in this thread of being some muslim fanatic travelers we have twisted the thread a little bit. I try answering from my knowledge and I am sure ElCid will help me with this one since he has been in Saudi Arabia ( Sorry ElCid I am assuming he as it is almost impossible to enter Saudi Arabia if you are a woman   I know that much   )

1. Why are there no Churches allowed in Saudi Arabia?
It is banned by the government. Saudi Arabia is holy place just like Vatikan, do you think Pope will allow mosques in Vatikan?

2. Why are Bibles and Crucifixes banned in Saudi Arabia?
Same as above.

3. Why is there no Freedom of Religion in Saudi Arabia
Well I don't know that, i know they are not democracy.

4. Why is Christian proselytising banned in Islamic 
countries?
It is not banned in Turkey, I was approached by missionaries while I was there right in front of a Blue Mosque of Istanbul and I had a nice chat with them, told them I don't beleive anything. I didn't see anyone stopping them nor doing anything. I can't speak for every country. It is best to go and see yourself instead of listening others.

5. Why is conversion to other religions banned by Islam?
Google or ElCid

6. Why do muslims have no freedom to choose their faith, other than Islam?

7. Why does Islams' Paradise reward men by giving them 72 virgins, in a religion which punishes fornication?
I beleive these are just made up stories to brain wash people. People are promissed a lot of things by god at the time of conflicts to fight for your cause. 

8. Why does Islams' Paradise reward men with rivers of wine, in a religion which bans alcohol? 
Same above.

9. Why did the founder of Islam preach violence and war against non muslims?
No, I don't think that is true, show me good link for that. They didn't enter the Jerusalem to kill all christiand and Jews, all were able to practice their religions as before unlike Crusaders whom slaughter anyone but the christians. Go to Jerusalem and you will see churches centuries old. If they were that cruel why didn't they burn them down? Just ask yourself.

Also bare in mind that you are talking about what happened 1300 year ago.

10.Why is a muslim subject to punishment by death if he criticises Muhammed or the Koran? 
That is a fetva given by Iranian clerics I think (humeyni maybe?) 

As Isabella put the facts in post above Freedom of religion is forbidden under Shari's but is this really any of our bussiness and what is it got to do with terrorism? This is how they live and we live different, we see them wrong and they see us wrong but that doesn't mean because they beleive different they are all terrorists, does it?


----------



## ElCid (8 Jun 2004)

*Islam*



> Freedom of religion is forbidden under Shari's but is this really any of our bussiness and what is it got to do with terrorism? This is how they live and we live different, we see them wrong and they see us wrong but that doesn't mean because they beleive different they are all terrorists, does it?



I'd say its hypocritical of them to come to European countries and expect freedom here when they deny it to others in their own countries.

It certainly has everything to do with terrorism when we in the west are expected to allow mullahs like Abu Hamza come to our countries and preach hatred and murder in his mosque, in our land!

You say Saudi is holy like the vatican and thats why Christianity can't be allowed there? 
Saudi Arabia is a huge country, much of it being vast empty desert! 
The Vatican is a small piece of land in the centre of the city of Rome. 

The city of Mecca might reasonably be compared to The Vatican, but to compare a whole country to a small few blocks in a major city...thats a bit much.

And anyhow, do you think religious symbols (like the Arab crescent) are banned in the Vatican? They are NOT.

While I was in Saudi, a friend of mine on our project threw down a couple of pieces of metal on the building site. 24 hours later he was sent home. The reason? They decided the two bits of metal looked like a CROSS and he had purposely 'insulted' Islam...so he was thrown out. 
Same thing could happen in the vatican I suppose! Sure.

You would not get away with Christian proseletysing in Saudi, Iran, Afghanistan, Dubai, Bahrain, Qatar or any of those other Arabic countries. It is banned. Don't lie  



> 72 virgins....I beleive these are just made up stories to brain wash people



Well we agree on something! Islam brainwashes its believers!



> Why did the founder of Islam preach violence and war against non muslims?
> No, I don't think that is true, show me good link for that.



There are plenty of such quotes in the Koran. Isabella just gave you a few. Here's more:

"Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” 

“God loves those who fight for His cause . . .” 

“If you do not go to war, He will punish you sternly.” 

“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you.” 

“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers . . . Hell shall be their home, evil their fate.” 

I suggest you follow your own advice and Google a few of the sites which quote the Koran. They're plentiful.


----------



## The Damned (8 Jun 2004)

*Atheist?*

Hey Mr AntiElCid, for a self professed ATHEIST you sure get pretty worked up 'bout any good ole boy who criticises Islam!

You sure you ain't no Muslim boy?


----------



## Jamie the snake charmer (8 Jun 2004)

*re all the little boys having an argument*

Hey guys,

You all give me the best laugh. Are any of you older than 6? Does your Mommy know you're on this website? :lol 

Anyone with even a shrew size brain can see that the problems we see are coming from both sides. BOTH SIDES. The west is to blame for some of it. The Islamic fundamentalists are to blame for some of it too. Bush is about the worst possible president America could have at the worst possible time. Hopefully the democrats will do a better job with their foreign policy.

There were a few intelligent post on this topic on the first couple of pages. Now it's just really funny. I really love all those "Muslims are bad" posts. 

Don't worry Brendan. When schools go back all these guys will disappear. 

P.S...I'm a regular poster on this board with a registered username. 
I don't notmally post on these kind of topics, but I watch what's going on in the world pretty closely. I didn't want to post under my own name because I saw what happened to piggy when he expressed his views. All the mad b**tards were out for his blood.

Nuff said.

Outta here.


----------



## Jamie the snake charmer (8 Jun 2004)

*Islam does not preach violence*

msnbc.msn.com/id/3067495/

Naturally, the internet is full of  alot of things. If I wanted to prove that the Bible taught people x, y and z then I'm sure I could find something on the internet to back up my own predujices.

Thankfully, I prefer to take a balanced view of life and other peoples. 

Read up on what islam is really about and what most Muslims really think. Grow up boys.


----------



## AntiElCid (8 Jun 2004)

*This thread getting nowhere *

ElCid, maybe you should start learn differences between The Islamic Fundamentals and Islam. Sorry you had a bad dose of Islam in Saudi but that gives you no right to think Islam is bad and accuse people of being terrorists because they are muslims and beleiving Islam. After all it was your choice to go to Saudi Arabia and you should have known what you were going into. 

Did anyone tried to convert you by putting gun on your head? If you think all muslims beleive in fairy tales like virgins and wine in heaven why aren't they going around in Europe and converting people? After all this is what you are going on about. I have never receive a leaflet under my door about Islam nor anyone put a gun on me to convert. Ok we have a small population of muslims here but don't you think if that is what these people beleives and there is something like heaven and wines and dines at the end of it and they are brain washed by Koran, they would be going around doing as Koran tells them so? We don't see or hear that happening in Germany or France either with millions of muslims living in those countries. Try going to the restaurant in the mosque here food is great and no one will convert you  

The Damned, I am not worked up on this, I have studied History and religions in the Uni and found a lot of conflicting stories coming from both sides. 

Ok lets go back to topic, the War on terror, me thinks war on terror is causing more terror than preventing it.


----------



## ElCid (8 Jun 2004)

*Islam*

Jamie the snake charmer (??) it is people like you that the fundamentalists in Islam love. You are prepared to give them equal standing (even a low one) with the christian democracies of the west. That just goes to confirm for them that we in the west are (like you) ambivalent, weak minded, dissolute and enfeebled. They believe it only takes a firm push to bring down the rotten structure of western civilization and replace it with a glorious Islamic Kaliphate encompassing the whole of humanity, and what better place to start than in the centre of modern western civilization...America.

Before you go back to your happy place and anonymity, let me recomend a book to you. It is called 'The Clash of Civilizations' and was written by Samuel P Huntington, (pen name ofAlbert J. Weatherhead) Professor and Chairman of the Harvard Academy of International and Area Studies. A man more learned and respected than even *you* my funny friend. His thesis was a best seller and although written in 1996 it predicted the conflict we are now seeing in the Islamic world. It also predicted a more dire future than we see even now. 
Be warned, it isn't bedside reading, so don't strain your brain. 

If you don't like the hard truth, just read something else. Others are going to do the dirty work anyhow to keep you free.

I went to the ME with an open mind on muslims, I came back with my eyes opened. I'm glad I saw it.

All muslims are not terrorists, but *very many* young muslim men seem drawn to Islamic terrorism as a way to relieve the sense of persecution that is inherent in the Islamic faith. It is a religion that encourages its believers to feel great injustice is always being done to them or their brothers, and to solve it by the gun. 
Evidently every male above the age of 14 in Iraq owns a Kalashnikov.

We have a small population of muslims here right now, and at present they keep a generally low profile and are not perceived as a threat. However one only has to look at whats happening in the UK and France (AntiElCid must be blind to this stuff) to see the future for Ireland if the muslim population continues to grow. Over there they have massive problems with young male muslim delinquency and a growing alienation of a large part of their population.

It is written in the Koran that territory occupied by muslims becomes 'Darul Islam' meaning Islamic land given by God and must be defended to the death by all muslims  (which is yet another reason why Israel will never find peace with the Arabs). 

OBL's comments (reproduced above) that Spain was part of the Muslim Ummah (worldwide property of Islam) is indicative of their thinking. Certain cities or areas in the UK are now majority muslim and this means they are now Darul Islam - the land of Islam. 

One can forsee the next step is the mass rejection of British rule in those areas, and then we have a situation somewhat like that in NI...a war of independance only by muslims wanting to separate from British rule. Supported and bolstered by the Jihadis of the Ummah.

It could eventually happen here. But even long before it does there will be hell to pay - as anti western sentiment continues to gain ground in muslim communities.

AntiElCid says no muslim ever tried 'converting' him. Does he need converting? I don't think so!
In the recent attacks in Khobar in Saudi the terrorists 'converted' a few westerners by the gun. They did the same again yesterday to an Irish cameraman (Simon Cumbers from Navan) and his journalist friend from the BBC.
In the first attack they went through the building searching for the westerners to execute. They spared the muslim residents of course. Cold blooded bastards.

I've made numerous references to the facts of what is written in the Koran, and AntiElCid knows they embarrass him and weaken his argument, so he defends them by saying they are just silly stories that aren't meant to be taken seriously.
By doing so he is defiling the Koran, and denying his religion. I've already pointed out that this is the worst sin a muslim can perpetrate and is severly punished. So AntiElCid you better be careful you don't reveal your apostasy to your brother muslims or you could be in serious trouble with them.

The Koran is taken by muslims to be the direct word of God, and it is not meant to be taken lightly. I've already said that those who call themselves Christian and yet defy the teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ are *not* christians at all. The same goes for 'muslims' who deny the Koran...how could that person call himself a muslim? Other muslims would not! 

If the Koran says KILL FOR ALLAHs SAKE and if you are a *true* muslim, then YOU MUST KILL.


----------



## The Damned (8 Jun 2004)

*AntiElCid*

He dude, what university did you go to? Your grammar and spelling are like a 5 year olds! Did they kick your sorry butt outta there?

Hey man, answer me this. If Islam is so great, how come the countries you set up are all shitholes...like Afghanistan? C'mon man, what makes you think we all wanna live in mud huts and drink camel milk!

Mines a creamy Guinness thanks!


----------



## JoJo (8 Jun 2004)

*Muslims*

Have to say, I never had any problem with muslims - until I found out they had a problem with me! Apparently I'm a Crusader!

Here's the latest threat: news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=...ine_threat


----------



## Jamie the snake charmer (8 Jun 2004)

*ELCid*

ELCid,

You have some very strange views. Very misguided and prejudiced ones at that. Nonetheless they're your views. Thankfully, the majority of Western civilisation doesn't think like you. You sound as fundamentalist as Osama Bin Laden.


----------



## Jamie the snake charmer (8 Jun 2004)

*Anonymity*

'Before you go back to your happy place and anonymity'


Eh...and you're not anonymous???


ELCid, the more I read your last post the more dangerous you actually sound. It's good that you post here. Your views should be welcomed as a warning to people. This is what the face of fear sounds like folks. 

Someone else brought up the likeness with Nazi Germany. Hitler's propoganda against the Jews ran along similar lines. Beware this anti-Muslim propoganda. 

The world has far more to fear from people with your sort of views ELcid.


----------



## ElCid (8 Jun 2004)

*Snake Charmer*

Back to sleep now Snake Charmer. 
Nighty Night.


----------



## Paul (8 Jun 2004)

*Muslims etc*

I think it is Bin Laden and his Muslim fanatics who are very dangerous ( have they not proved that already in New York, Bali etc ).   If you want to compare anyone to Hitler, it is them.


----------



## Jamie the snake charmer (8 Jun 2004)

*re Paul*

Paul,

We know what you think. How many times do you need to say it. We're not deaf.

Yes...Bin Laden is dangerous. So is Bush.

And the similarity between Nazi propoganda against the Jews and what ELCid has said about Muslims is extroadinary.


----------



## ElCid (8 Jun 2004)

*Facts*

Every word of it was backed up, and is documented fact.
Your opinion is yours to keep, and is simply indicative of your inability to counter the facts with a properly framed rebuttal.


----------



## Jamie the snake charmer (8 Jun 2004)

*re*

'Every word of it was backed up, and is documented fact.'

Rubbish. You tracked down some really dodgy stuff on the internet and twisted some words from the Koran to suit your own ****** up ideology.

Everyone can see what a weirdo you are. I don't know why you're so proud of it!!


----------



## purple (8 Jun 2004)

*Re.Jamie the snake charmer*

I have just read the last few pages of c**p and I'm with Jamie the snake charmer on how it has gone down hill.
We are at the stage where replies rely on personal attacks rather than constructive comment.
Once again I make the point, the world is not black and white. 
The Israilie Palastinian question has nothing to do with OBL and why he does what he does.
Islam has not had it's age of enlightenment and so in terms of where I would like to live I would opt for the post Christian west any day.
Bring back Piggy, daltonr etc (even the Rev. Flynn) for a bit of reasoned debate.


----------



## ElCid (9 Jun 2004)

*Blaaahhh!!!*



> The Israilie Palastinian question has nothing to do with OBL and why he does what he does.



For someone who can't even SPELL Israeli thats a pretty sweeping statement. The plight of the Palestinians is one of the commonest themes in all the vile threats of OBL and his Al Qaeda brethren.



> Rubbish. You tracked down some really dodgy stuff on the internet and twisted some words from the Koran to suit your own ****** up ideology.



And you gave us nothing but your ill informed opinion and emotional claptrap.
I have the Koran right here in my book collection, and I've read it. Whatever Koranic quotes from the internet I gave - all had or have direct references in the book. I didn't write the stuff...Muhammed did, so if you dislike or disagree with it don't blame me.


----------



## Tizona (9 Jun 2004)

*Palestinians*

Don't forget the Palestinians danced in the streets when the WTC was destroyed. I guess they think OBL is on THEIR side.


----------



## Colada (9 Jun 2004)

*War in Iraq*

Regarding AntiElCids last post.
He asks if the Iraq war has increased terrorism.
Well I agree with him. 

Really the Americans should have stayed out of Iraq and let Saddam continue doing a great job keeping the mad mullahs in check. The population of Iraq are obviously an ungrateful lot, not to mention a pack of gangsters and extremists. They only understand strongarm tactics and Saddam new how to deal with them.
I just listened to an Iraqi journalist on The Last Word and he says that things were BETTER under Saddam!

Lets face it, there were no WMD in Iraq, so poor old Saddam was misunderstood and unfairly treated by the Americans. If the Iraqi's didn't like him then it was really up to them to get rid of him. Now the Yanks have destabilised the whole area and the mad mullahs are making their grab for power. AlSadr is trying to get a large following so he can take a place in the new government. Basically all he has to do is kill a few Americans to gain popularity.

I think its heart breaking to see young American men and women, part time soldiers, dying in the streets of a third world shithole for the sake of those animals and Bush's crazy policies.

Please America, get out of Iraq and let them murder each other. Keep a few nukes trained on the place, and if they misbehave in future in any way...waste 'em.


----------



## Piper (9 Jun 2004)

*Mad as a brush!!*

I see the raving lunies are still around then. You'd think they'd be getting bored listening to their own hate filled sh*te by now.


----------



## AntiElCid (9 Jun 2004)

I have given up with ElCid and his stupid accusations of me being traveling muslim fanatical terrorist. What ever turns you on ElCid. What ever Koran you are reading it is obvious not the same one as billions reading. What a low mind you have that you can think billions of people are brain washed. You stay in your home and keep reading your Koran maybe one day you will form your own fight against Muslims.

Staying in the topic, with the Iraqi invasion and now we are seeing that Iraq is going for self rule, I think that will create more terrorist groups and what worrying is will they stay in their soils or spread around and continue terrorising the world. One must ask , are we really preventig terrorism?


----------



## GerardL (9 Jun 2004)

*I'm so bored.*

Jeeze, this thing still around? Hilarious stuff though...

To the same guy who hates Muslims and keeps posting under different names,

What the hell are you getting out of this crap?
No one on this board shares your views. You're holding a conversation with yourself!! So...you hate Muslims. Okay. No one here gives a damn. I just get pissed off everytime I have to see your silly post on the top of this page. Give it a rest and go away. Go to some other board where people want to listen to your nonsense.


----------



## ElCid (9 Jun 2004)

*Rubbish*

Well it seems to me that more than one person is posting under the same name here.

Hey AntiME, you're really sraping the bottom of the barrel now.
How many versions of the Koran are there?

1.The OBL version
2.The AntiElCid version
3.Salman Rushdies version (care to explain the Satanic Verses controversy to us all?)
4.The Wahabi version
5.The Sunni version
6.The Shiite version
7.The Anti ElCid version

.........plenty of room for adding your own spin, eh?


----------



## Tizona (9 Jun 2004)

*Sick*

It really sickens and saddens me to see Irish people swallow the lies they've been fed by the liberal media about Islam. They have lost their souls to the point of grovelling after the Koran and Muhammed, while at the same time rejecting This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ and the Bible.

If there are any Christians left on this site you might at least find some solace among your own here:


----------



## Ray (9 Jun 2004)

*Tizona*

I would not say that the media is Liberal or free from bigotry , most of the Media bar BBC has focused solely on the US/UK alliance ,whihc has been quite overbearing on occasions.

It is unusual however how people on this site, who have no sound religous beliefs Christian or otherwise feel that it is appropriate to comment on any particular religon Muslim or otherwise.

This is a war against is terror driven by the west because of the various afflictions commited by the terror groups.The East is driven against the hatred of the west. This fear, loathing and suspicion has been around for hundreds of years and neither you, I or George W will cessate this , but it is a requirement of the western world to have "peace" as we are only too familiar with the needlessness and horrifying effects of war.
They are Muslim fanatics , accepted, but you cannot tarnish the whole Muslim race as terrorists. On that logic you are stating that all Catholics in Ireland are members of the IRA , you might see how wrong you are now but i doubt it.


----------



## Ronan Moore (9 Jun 2004)

*Tizona*

"It really sickens and saddens me to see Irish people swallow the lies they've been fed by the liberal media about Islam. They have lost their souls to the point of grovelling after the Koran and Muhammed, while at the same time rejecting This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ and the Bible."


This coming from a man who thinks that all Muslims are paedophiles!!!!!

Where is the liberal media Tizona? The vast majority of news (ie 99.9%) of it shows the war from the perspective of the coalition. That's all we hear about pretty much. So I don't know where you're getting that from.

Who's grovelling at the Koran? People can make up their own minds about what's going on in the world without having to listen to your hatred everyday. Give it a rest.


----------



## Tizona (9 Jun 2004)

*Islam*

Ray, you sound like a well meaning person attempting to be balanced in your views, but you are a perfect example of how the media has brainwashed ordinary westerners into this ambivalence toward Islam. Its done under the guise of being 'even handed' and 'reasonable'. Another word for it is Politically Correct.

Let me explain it to you.

To draw direct parrallels between the relationship of Catholics and the IRA, and muslims and Islamic terror, is faulty in the extreme, naiive, and grossly insulting and unfair to Irish Catholics.  

The glaring difference between Islamic terror and Islam, and the IRA and Catholicism, is that - *the Catholic church does not teach that violence can or should be used by its followers!* 

*Nor did the founder of the Christian church ever say violence was right when defending 'the faith'. In fact he said the direct opposite. Turn the other cheek.*

The 'prophet' muhammed however not only taught his followers to use violence to advance Islam - he was a living example to them of how to do so. And don't accuse me of lying about him, its all in the history books which many here seem too blind to read.

You suggest I say all muslims are terrorists. I did not say that. Show me where I said that?

Nor did I say all muslims are paedophiles! Show me where I said that?

However, Violence and Paedophilia are practices that the Koran not only permits but sometimes recommends.


----------



## Mary Magdalene (9 Jun 2004)

*re*

It seems only fair that this thread be locked too...considering it is not about the war but has been debased by some people to be about Muslims and Islam.


----------



## Just a bit sofa king WeeTodDid (9 Jun 2004)

*Tizona*

Tiz Quoted "The 'prophet' muhammed however not only taught his followers to use violence to advance Islam - he was a living example to them of how to do so. And don't accuse me of lying about him, its all in the history books which many here seem too blind to read.

You suggest I say all Muslims are terrorists. I did not say that. Show me where I said that?"


If you look really hard in your previous response paragraph one onto paragraph two you might recognize the idiocy of the second paragraph.


What a dumbass...........It seems that there is a very clear line, in your mind, between organized terrorism and organized religious terrorism. I kid you not both strive for the same result.

But the terrorists seek destruction of our culture, freedom and democracy, not western domination by Islam although I am sure that would follow.
So you are making the point that all Muslims are evil violent terrorists, which they are not, just in the same way as all Irish Catholics are not members of the IRA


----------



## Paul (9 Jun 2004)

*Muslims etc*

I would like to tell Jamie the snake charmer that there is no need for personal insults.

Regarding his statement that " there is a similarity between Nazi propaganda against the Jews and what EICid said " , I strongly disagree with Jamies view.

What EICid said was correct and well backed up, and it was not comparable to what Hitler said about the Jews.

Indeed if you want to compare anyones views about the Jews, you should compare Bin Ladens to Hitlers.   What happened to the Jews in WW2 is very serious, and not fully appreciated by the Arab world.

Thank God for the UK and US to defend us all.( WW2, the cold war, now the war on terror... )

If the UK was so bad, why are there 2 or 3 million muslims there now ?


----------



## ClubMan (9 Jun 2004)

This topic seems to be going nowhere and there is reasonable evidence to suggest that at least a couple of posters are using many different aliases for no obvious good reason so I'm locking it now.


----------

