# Eircom ESOP: when's our next windfall?



## luckylou

Hey guys,
I know were due another payment in June 2008 but can anyone tell me how much? Also, are we expecting another payment at any stage this year. 

Thanks
Lou


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

The June payout is 7k if you have a full allocation of shares.  I this they expect to make the full allocation again this year of 12.7k so payment is probably the same timeframe as last year.


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Thanks MB. I heard it through the grape vine that we may receive a big lump sum, what's owing to us ( over the next few years ) as B&B want to get rid of the ESOP?


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

There was a lot of talk about it in the latter half of last year both in work and in the papers.  I think it came from the fact that the esop have to explore the fact that the co. could be split and sold.  The esop is not allowed hold excess cash so they might have to use the "big payment clause" sooner rather than later.  They are allowed to give us €38,100 in one year tax free.  This is a one time deal so the esop were holding on to it in case they had to wind the esop down (2014) or something like this happened.  If they company don't sell retail and meteor  it may not happen.  The papers said that B&B plan to use this to their advantage when they try to sell the staff on the breakup - agree and get your money now etc.  They seem to think giving us our money in return for a crappier future is a good thing.  We are going to get this money in the next few years anyway so why let them pillage the company any further!

The latest rumour is that we are getting a payout in Feb/Mar (probably around the 5k/6k mark).

Who knows what is true as the esop don't tell us anything.


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hey MB50,
 where did you get the max figure of 38,100? ESOP are fantasic at keeping us in the dark,but I do hope B&B sell off the retail and mobile section and give us a proper payout! Where did you hear a payout maybe made FEB/MARCH??????
You seam to know much more than me! But, who am I! Only a ESOP member, lol

Thanks Lou


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

The €38,100 is equivelent to IR£30,000.  There is a provision in the original esop documentation for a once off tax free payment of IR£30,000 (3 times the normal annual .

I heard it from a few different sources but I'll believe it when I see it as it is a bit early in the year for them to be paying out.  Anyone who told me didn't hear it first hand.  All it takes is one person to say it and it whips round the company within days. 

If B&B get their way and sell retail etc how safe will our jobs be?  Most of the staff currently have a  contract with eircom, a pretty secure job etc.  If you are in retail (or to a lesser extent meteor) will you get the option to stay with eircom or will you be forced to go with another owner whose terms and conditions could be worse?  At least at the moment all they can do to us is put us in the RBU but a new company could sack you etc.  If an earlier payout of my money is a bribe for this I for one will tell them where to stuff it.  I will get the payout anyway so whether it is this year or in 3 years I don't care.  I will not be bought by B&B!  At this point if they say left I'll go right.  I can't stand the way they treat the staff and how bad the atmosphere has got in the time they have been here.   

Having said that all donations are gratefully received!!


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## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hello everyone,

Does anyone know if there will be a payment in December this year? Thanks.


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Looks like it.  Rumours are rife in HSQ but that could just be wishful thinking.  I did hear month's ago that the ESOT had extra cash on hand and they planned to give it to us in December but with the credit crunch who knows if that money is still available.  They might need it to bail out B & B!


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## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Thanks MB05


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## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



ExEircom said:


> Having been out of the loop for over 10 years ( and of late becoming extremely financially stretched ) I am quite interested in this, so just a quick question.
> 
> What is the HSQ?
> 
> And surely if B&B having trying to get rid of the ESOP surely they won't be looking for a dig out ( unless one of the Bs is ....  )


 
HSQ is the new building at Heuston- Eircom have moved out of Cumberland and Stephen's Green.


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi Guys,

There's been no word from ESOP about shares this year, whats happening!! This time last year they informed us that we would be receiving shares for November!

Has anyone any information??


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## GeneralZod

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



ExEircom said:


> And surely if B&B having trying to get rid of the ESOP surely they won't be looking for a dig out ( unless one of the Bs is ....  )



There was an indo article a month or so ago that indirectly suggested that the ESOT might try to buy up some of BCM since they're in trouble and own 57% of eircom compared to the ESOT's 35%. If they try that it would hit any cash payout in December. As far as I can tell it doesn't make any sense to give out any cash at the moment as the ESOT's realisable assets are all at depressed prices. e.g. The <insert well known mobile company> shares are worth even less than they used to be.


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## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Rumour of approx 5k nov 24 or so


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I heard that the letters are going out 24th Nov and the figure is €5.3k.


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## Dave W

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I heard the rumour this morning from a source that's never been wrong before. Letters 24th Nov and cheques before Christmas, €5.3k for full allocation. have emailed the ESOP to ask for confirmation...reason for €5.3k I assume is to bring us in under the tax radar for 2008...YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!! Timing is everything!!


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## extopia

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Well, it's good to know that at least someone's making out from <insert cliche here> the Eircom fiasco. The ordinary shareholders lost their shirts of course,  and customers were being fleeced for decades


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## ubiquitous

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Fiasco? I think scandal is a more apt description for what was probably the nadir of the Celtic Tiger era.


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Happy Christmas to us! Don't you just love eircom.


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## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Dave W said:


> have emailed the ESOP to ask for confirmation.../quote]
> 
> If you get confirmation Dave, maybe you'd pass the word on. I find the secrecy surrounding these payments ridiculous. If there is a payment due why in heaven's name can't it be posted on the ESOP site? Just don't get it!


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## Scouser

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

What was the full allocation amount in June this year?  Trying to work out how much i will be getting as i dont have full allocation.

X.


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

7k for June 2008


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## Bonaparte

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Extopia, Please note that the "ordinary" share holder had every opportunity to make lots of money on eircom shares by selling early. However, the greedy lost out by hanging on for more gain. Everybody who bought shares took a risk and some gained and others lost. Also the eircom workers made eircom what it was and it is only right that they should continue to reap the benifits of success.


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## cerberos

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

"Also the eircom workers made eircom what it was and it is only right that they should continue to reap the benifits of success"

I just luv that statement


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## depression

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



ubiquitous said:


> Fiasco? I think scandal is a more apt description for what was probably the nadir of the Celtic Tiger era.



considering the price they sold it at ,the government got way more for Eircom than it was worth and all this went into the national pension fund , right ? so we didnt do that badly even if people got fleeced.


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## paddyd

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Bonaparte said:


> Also the eircom workers made eircom what it was and it is only right that they should continue to reap the benifits of success.



 I'm glad you said 'was', and even that is debatable. I've worked in telecom's all my life, and am familiar with working with eircom from an external perspective.
It wasn't called Slumberland house for nothing.

most in the industry would consider doing business with eircom akin to walking in tar; always was, always is.


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## extopia

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



paddyd said:


> most in the industry would consider doing business with eircom akin to walking in tar; always was, always is.



That would be my experience as a customer too. Thankfully we now have a semblance of choice, although unfortunately can't get completely away from the moribund eircom as they still own the line.


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## paddyd

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



extopia said:


> although unfortunately can't get completely away from the moribund eircom as they still own the line.



therein lies the problem, or perhaps its the legacy of a past problem - its easy be an employee in a company that has a monopoly in an industry for 50 years, in a world where everyone was getting a phone line installed!


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## Labguy

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



extopia said:


> That would be my experience as a customer too. Thankfully we now have a semblance of choice, although unfortunately can't get completely away from the moribund eircom as they still own the line.



It wasn't a great outfit to be honest and I speak as an ex employee.  Mostly run by pretty militant unions.  But having said that - the staff were very badly paid over the years so maybe it was justified.


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Money definitely on the way.  The ESOP website has posted a notice on it.  The ESOP extra book will be sent out early November (now) with the money to follow later in November.  No definite date mentioned but I presume the payout will be around the 24th as rumoured recently.


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## mvron

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Slumberland House may be gone but from my experience (as another ex-employee) we've all paid for the ESOP (and I'm not in receipt of same).


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Check Out The Eircom Esop Web Page. Yipee


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## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi there,

Thanks for all the information on this matter so far...

I heard a rumour of a payout in March of €30k for full allocation holders - can anybody back this up?

Thanks in advance,

Eddie


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## BurritoQueen

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I've the same question...is there any news on a payout planned for Jan.Feb 2009  timeframe?  Thanks


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## riddles

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

at one point with Eircom shares - shareholders could have sold at 35% profit  Hardly the governments problem that I as a shareholder didnt sell.


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## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



BurritoQueen said:


> I've the same question...is there any news on a payout planned for Jan.Feb 2009 timeframe? Thanks


 
I emailed ESOP and asked them could they verify the rumor and, of course, they're being tight-lipped about giving out any information.

Here's what they emailed me back though:

>>>
'The Trustee have made no announcement regarding a triple appropriation for 2009.

All members of the ESOP would  be advised regarding any appropriation from the scheme'.
<<<

Anyway, if anybody else hears anything let me know!

Thanks,

dr1nky​


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## BurritoQueen

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

But besides the 'triple payout' rumour that I've also heard about; has ANYONE heard about the normal €12k range pay-out within Q12009 time frame? ....nothing is posted on the ESOP website..... Did anyone get 'the promise letter' yet?  I've strong fairly reliable information that this IS coming but???????????


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## Bandit

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Presumably if there is to be a triple payment, this may preclude a "normal" payment - for tax reasons. As a matter of interest, what is the "promise letter" - excuse my ignorance but I´ve been living out of Ireland since retiring, so I´m really out of touch


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## BurritoQueen

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

The 'promise letter ' is the letter the ESOP sends out confirming a coming payment on such and such a day....sometimes they post it on the ESOP website ....but at the moment, other then hot rumours....I can't find anything confirming a payment by the end of Feb. 2009....the rumours DO sound wonderful would be nice to know if they're based in reality......


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Is it not a bit early in the year for another payout!? Considering, every other payout was made in June/July!


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## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I think we need the word from MB05; the only one who seems to have the inside track on all of this


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## BurritoQueen

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Another question if one is to inherit one's partners' shares does the €12k non-taxed payment continue or do they give a one time payout that then is taxable inheritance yes?


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Lol at Penpusher. MB50 knows all the answers!

BQUEEN, Esop unit will be able to answer the tax question correctly, that's the kinda info they will be happy to answer. Let us know what they say!!


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## BurritoQueen

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

ESOP says any non-relative who inherits these shares will receive a 1x "discretionary" payout based on the average five day price of the shares. This will be taxed like any other capital inheritance. They will not continue the non- taxed annual dividend.....hmph! So when I asked ESOP to give me an idea what such a pay-out would be if a person had the FULL allocation of ESOP shares she said it would take a month to get that info back to me .......   ??? huh????  Goodness.

I'm trying find away to pay the CGT on the property I may inherit from my partner. For example if the house is worth €300,000 ...after the circa €20k discount, the CGT could be (@ 20%) nearly €40k so either I get an insurance policy for this amount or pay it from my net (after CGTax) shares payout as I don't want to sell the home.....
hmm any other ideas or possible solutions out there?


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Thanks for the vote of confidence!  I have heard nothing definite hence my silence to date.  I have heard whispers of the triple payout but that happens every year.  Someone I know said they heard that there will be 3 separate payments of €12.7k.  

I would have thought that it was a bad time to sell shares and to pay out a triple payment this year it would take more than preference shares.  

Maybe Babcock and Brown have found a buyer and the money is earmarked from that.  But who would buy a company crippled with debt at a time like this?

If the rumours get stronger I'll let you know.


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## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Heard the same rumour too, 3x12k , feb, june,nov or something like that


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## BurritoQueen

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Did ANYone get their Eircom payout Nov-Dec 2008? Or did this get hit in the head in the last minute?


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## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi there,

I can confirm that we did receive a 'payout' mid/late November 2008. It was for the amount of €5,065 for full allocation holders.

Does anybody have further news on the possibility of a 'tripple appropriation' this year?

Thanks,

Drinky


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## BurritoQueen

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

funny we didn't get a payout.....my partner is retired after 40 years in Eircom ... and yes he is a 'full allocation holder'.  He said that perhaps some folks may have gotten a payment as they were in some other kind of 'status' such as they were hired after privitzation....hmmmm.... I think he's mistaken. It seems to me that EVERY full allocation holder would've been equally paid his/her dividend yes? ....hmmmmmm... couldn't get through to ESOP today....but does anyone else know if only SOME folks got their payout in November?  thanks a bunch for letting me know.


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Could he be holding out on you? I know a lot of the men in work joke about it and curse the media for splattering it all over the front page.  All joking aside everyone who had shares got it.  The ESOP should be able to help you once you get through to them.


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Drinky,

The PSEU AGM was on last week and Eugene Quinn (who on board of ESOP) said that the triple payment is not happening.  It will just be the normal one.

That being said the papers reported that Singapore Telecom were interesting in buying eircom.  If that is true then maybe there will be funds for a triple payout.  And now Rex is on his way it could be the start of the Austrailian's pulling out.


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## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

....well then how am I going to buy a new car?

HA HA   - just kidding 

Thanks for the info MB05  .....I guess we'll jusy have to wait and see what happens!

Cheers,

Drinky


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Dr1nky, did you attend the agm? 

jdwex, have you heard anything?

Has anyone else heard what's going on????

Regards
Luckylou


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## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi,

I wasn't at the AGM, I left Eircom back in May 2003

I was in contact with a current Eircom employee today and they said that a 'tripple allocation' was not ruled out at the AGM (although it is unlikely).

I guess it's fingers crossed for another takeover (as mentioned by MB05 earlier 

Regards,

Drinky


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## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Some interesting reading.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/singtel-in-tentative-eircom-contact-1613272.html


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## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Some more interesting reading, particularly regarding implications for pensions.
[broken link removed]


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## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi there,
            I am also ex employee of Eircom leaving in late 2000 so have approx 30% of full allocation.

I also own BCM shares(Babcock & Brown Capital Management) who own 57% of Eircom.
BCM have indicated there will be an impairment charge in relation to current carrying value of Eircom due to potential Eircom pension deficit & other factors.This will be communicated to Australian market in next couple of months.

From last ESOP circular Eircom has $350 million in assets with 50% of this in notional value of ESOPS' 35% stake in Eircom.
How attainable this is could be questionable given Eircoms' high debt levels to EBITDA,potential pension deficit & deep recession in Ireland


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

From what I've heard the eircom pension fund is pretty healthy in comparison to most.

I know the pension fund was brought up at the union AGM too and they said that there was enough money to pay everyone for something like 70 years.  I wasn't at the meeting so I am only going on what others said.

I noticed a few month's ago that the company had reduced their contribution from 10% to something like 7.1%.  I thought it was B & B pulling a fast one so I rang up the pensions section and they said that every few years the actuaries review the rate and apparently they deemed that the company had over paid in the last few years so they recommended that they reduced it.

I don't think they would do this if the pension fund had a deficit especially with the current 
state of stocks and shares.


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## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Babcockand Brown Capital issued a statement to Australian market last week on Eircom pension-look up their website [broken link removed] under news asx announcements(announcement made on 27th Jan).

They flag possible shortfall on pension which company will have to compensate-not surprising giving the tanking in Irish sharemarket/property market as well as possible impairment on carrying value of Eircom in Babcocks' books.

I hope your right on pension  but any potential buyer of Eircom will need clarified on potential pension shortfall and Eircoms' future viability given its' massive borrowings in current Irish recession.


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## alibaba1

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi all,

Does anyone know when the payouts will stop?


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I think this year is the last guaranteed one.  €7000 (for those with a full allocation) in June/July.  After that it is in the lap of the God's.


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## alibaba1

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

hey MB05 - thanks for the info and for all the previous posts.. they have been very helpful..

hopefully the gods are looking down on us - he he..


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## marco

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

so what will happen now babcock and brown seems to have gone bust

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aKZ6HpRiioSw


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## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Its a worrying development but thank God they only hold a small percentage of eircom.  B&B Capital are our main owners and from what I understand they are in a better position than the parent company and completely separate.   I think there has been dealings in the backround trying to distance us from B&B.  

I wonder will the ESOP and B&B Capital buy the 7-8% they own or will the rumours of another eminent sale be true.  Singapore Telecom was the last name I seen mentioned in the papers.

Hold on to your seats its going to be a bumpy ride!


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## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Babcock & Brown going bust will have no effect on Eircom or Esop.


As previous poster pointed out,BCM(Babcock Capital management) own 57% of Eircom as well as holding in an Israeli company.

They also have $325m Aud in cash of which they are proposing to repay $100m to BCM shareholders including me which will be voted at AGM on 27th Feb.

BCMs' current market value is $200m Aud so they are trading at substanial discount to their $325m cash holding and share market is implying that their Eircom/Israel investment has no implicit value.

This is the reason that I bought BCM in 1st place as even it trades up to its' cash balance will give me 60% upside on price that I bought at.
I also believe there may be some value in Eircom if it can manage to get its' debt levels down.

I can't see them increasing their stake in Eircom unless they get it at a knock down price.


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## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Q1. Will eircom esop members profit from any of these $100m BCM shares in Feb? 

Q2. When the esop unit is disolved in 2012, does that mean all 35% of eircom shares will have sold. i.e money in our pockets?


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## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

The $100m cash will be given back to BCM shareholders if proposal is passed at BCM AGM at end of this month,it has nothing to do with Eircom/Esop at all.
BCM raised $1 billion  from shareholders which it used to purchase stakes in Eircom & Isreali company with $350m left over.
Its' simply proposing to return part of this excess cash to BCM shareholders

On second question can't answer that but on latest Esop Newsletter stated Esop had $350m in assets including notional $175m for 35% stake in Eircom(given current economic climate/credit crunch questionable how attainable this is)

I think Eircom releases quarterly results at end of this month so will be interesting to see how its' doing in current climate


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## BurritoQueen

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

This is very intersting reading. I didn't realize this was the last 'guarenteed' payout.  Goodness gracious! BTW does anyone know why the November 2008 payout was withheld and why is there no explanation for this on the ESOT website? Could it happen again this year?


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## GeneralZod

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

The Nov payment wasn't withheld.  Ring the ESOT.  Didn't you mention this previously?


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## kbie

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Do we, ESOT, still have Vodafone shares, for what they are worth?


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## nasher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

the last  esop correspondence stated that we had 66 million euro  in vodafone shares i think the price has risen since then so obviously the value has risen i suppose they are not going to give out any allocation of vodafone until the esop debt is repaid as the dividends are bing used to pay off the loan due to be finished next year and god only knows what the share price will be then.


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## IrlJidel

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



nasher said:


> the last  esop correspondence stated that we had 66 million euro  in vodafone shares i think the price has risen since then so obviously the value has risen i suppose they are not going to give out any allocation of vodafone until the esop debt is repaid as the dividends are bing used to pay off the loan due to be finished next year and god only knows what the share price will be then.



Sterling has probably fallen more that vod.l shares have risen though.


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## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



BurritoQueen said:


> BTW does anyone know why the November 2008 payout was withheld and why is there no explanation for this on the ESOT website? Could it happen again this year?


 
As per the following link, shares were appropriated on November 17th, 2008:



Drinky


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## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Just back from BCM results presentation in sydney.

Very interesting and main points as follows

1-AGM authorised $100.7 million AUD cash return to BCM shareholders which we will get in middle of March

2-Accounts assume no market value for Eircom
Eircom goodwill impairment of $1,423 million AUD

3-Eircom pension deficit 450 million euros

4-New CEO appointed for BCM who has specific telecommunications experience with Telstra and will be based in London

5-Hunt continuing for replacement of Reg Comb

There then was a question & answers sections and main points I picked up on

-Board agreed with BCM shareholders that retention of cash within BCM of critical importance so can't see BCM increasing its' stake in Eircom.

-Meeting was a bit of doom & gloom from some shareholders with talk of winding up BCM etc-understandable as some BCM investors have lost a lot of money

-I stated at meeting that Eircom had a future if it could reduce costs & gearing

-Esot in discussion with BCM about range of alternatives for Eircom


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## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



macbri said:


> Just back from BCM results presentation in sydney.
> 
> Very interesting and main points as follows
> 
> 1-AGM authorised $100.7 million AUD cash return to BCM shareholders which we will get in middle of March
> 
> -Esot in discussion with BCM about range of alternatives for Eircom


 
How will this impact Eircom ESOP shareholders like myself (if at all!)? I mean, will it strenghten our chances of a tripple appropriation in 2009 (ie an appropriation in March this year as well as June/July and November/December?).

Thanks in advance,

Drinky


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## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

No impact on Esop as return is to BCM shareholders who own 57% of Eircom.

Esop values 35% stake in Eircom  at notional stake of $175m whilst BCM auditors value BCMs' stake at zero as well as Australian sharemarket given current BCM share price.


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## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Just to clarify couple of things from agm today

1-Pension deficit $433m not $450m as I stated in previous post

2-New BCM CEO is Andrew Day


----------



## nasher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

i cannot understand where this triple payment can be funded from looking at the last esop bulletin ther does not seem to be enough to make this payment can anybody enlighten me. thanks


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

It can't unless the company is sold again (open to correction on this) and the ESOP sells its shareholding.


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I agree with MB05.

From memory,last circular had 350m euro in Esop including notional 175m for 35% stake in Eircom.This notional stake will only be realised if another party buys out Esops' 35% stake in Eircom.

Can somebody out there give breakdown of other 175m per last Esop newsletter-ie how much relates to Vodafone/cash/preference shares


----------



## Misjudged

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Is ESOT worth anything any more?


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi all

Does anyone know when the next payment is being made? Is it still aimed at May/June?


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi there, 

I heard that it'll be a normal allocation in May/June and that there's zero possibility of a tripple allocation  -any additional funds are to be pumped back into the company.

....just what I've heard, somebody might want to verify this!

Cheers,

Dr1nky


----------



## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

8k or so redeemable preference
after that esot has  35% of  a value of  0+ , and some vod shares....


----------



## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Article in yeaterday's Sunday Times- from what I can gather, ESOP want to buy more share in the company! 
Where will that leave us with regards to cash shares and also the company is worth less now. 
 I also taught ESOP had to sell off all the shares by 2012 and disperes the 35% stake it had in the company!? I can't make sense it if.


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

luckylou, the story is coming from the fact that the last of the guaranteed payments is this summer.  After that the only way to sell the eircom shares is to either refloat eircom on the stock exchange or come to an agreement with BCM to exchange eircom shares for a stake in BCM.  As the BCM shares are quoted on the Austrailian stock exchange the ESOT can make distributions.

The real question is who in their right mind would want BCM shares?


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

There is another option if ESOP wants more shares and thats' to buy out BCMs' 57% stake.

ESOP has available resources in cash/vodafone shares & preference shares and exchange rate is very favourable at moment- 1 euro= 2 aud,
they could mount a viable bid to buy out BCMs' eircom stake.

This would be a great option for both BCM & ESOP members as employees would now own 100% of Eircom and BCM would have an exit strategy.

Can someone post a link to Sunday Times article as I would like to read it.


----------



## bilic04

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

is the next windfall date end of may/june has anyone heard anymore. 
my husbad is an exemploee and has shares and love gettin that little surprise in the post,  but very sad to read this is our last guarantee one


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

It's usually end of June/early July I think.  Rumours are doing the rounds that it might not be as guaranteed as we thought.  People are saying that the ESOT are looking at buying some of BCM's shareholding.  Who knows whats true anymore.


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Proposal announced today to take over BCM for $1.05 per share( cash value).
Proposal is coming from ex executives of Babcock & Brown including Reg Comb which basically are trying to take BCM private.

Further details will be forthcoming at meeting in sydney on 27th April which I intend to attend.


----------



## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

This is getting ridiculous, and frankly not in eircom or Ireland's interst. Whatever about esot payouts, Knopfer and Comb have zero interest in running eircom as a telco- I think the term used in the Australia media is "a lolly shop". If I were the esot I'f be looking for a partner to take over BCM and buy out Babcock and Brown's stake


----------



## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



> BCM's assets centre around a controlling stake in the Irish telecom Eircom and a smaller holding in Israeli directories interest Golden Pages. It is also sitting on $180 million in surplus cash.
> 
> Shareholders will receive as much as 75 per cent of the funds upfront, with the balance coming over the next 12 months.
> Under the plan, as much as $173 million could be returned to shareholders. Before the proposal, BCM last traded at 84c each. It last traded above $1 a share in October last year.


 
So BCM has cash of $180 million, and the Esot is sitting on cash of 150million + euros.

Unless I'm mistaken, Topfer et al. are not actually putting up any cash to buy BCM. The esot should be able to offer something like $250 million plus to BCM's shareholders, funded by BCM's own cash reserves and Esot's own resources.


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi there,

So....   I'm presuming that our June/July allocation will be on hold then, pending the outcome of the offer on the table?

::::::::::: Looks like the shiney new car will be on hold then! Ahhhh well, at least there's no chance of a GIANT magpie flying off with the not so shiney, bucket on wheels that I'm driving at present!! ::::::::::: 

Dr1nky


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Yes you are right,Topler and company are not offering any premium to current BCM cash value.

I can't see any value in offer for BCM shareholders of which I'm 1 and Esop(again which I'm a member)

To me its' pure opportunisic play to takeover  BCM and hopefully BCM shareholders will reject it(I certainly will be voicing my opinion at meeting on 27th April)

Per report on rte website,BCM management have also rejected proposal which is heartening but ultimately it will be BCM shareholders who decide.

As I said before,Esop should make offer for BCMs' 57% shareholding.

They have resources with cash/vodafone shares and perhaps borrowing potential and if Eircom is owned by its' employees then there would be a greater employee incentive to manage costs and hence debt.


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Good meeting 2day in sydney.

BCM passed resolution to change name from BCM to 'Eircom holding' and also to internalise management from Babcock and Brown for a fee of $5m aud.

Motions were rejected on Andrew Days' performance bonus package and termination payments.

Things seem to be moving pretty fast and BCM indicated that they are talking to various interested parties on their eircom stake and should provide further update by next meeting which I think is July.

BCM also stated that there going to return 80 cent per share to BCM shareholders which is the bulk of cash that is lying on their balance sheet-think that clarifies that there definately not going to invest any more equity into eircom.

BCM share price up 10% today-yippee


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

That should see of Taemasbridge too which is good for eircom and Ireland in general.  If they had got their hands on eircom they would have let it rot and picked at the carcas.


----------



## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

So........does anyone have the bottom line on the June payout? I am told it's still on track. Anyone care to refute/confirm?


----------



## kdoc

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



penpusher said:


> So........does anyone have the bottom line on the June payout? I am told it's still on track. Anyone care to refute/confirm?


----------



## kdoc

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

All the talk that I hear is quite the opposite: a June payout is highly unlikely.


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Agree with u MB05 on keeping Topler & co out of Eircom is in Eircom/Ireland best interests

My preference would be for either Esot to increase its' Eircom stake or Eircom/government to come up with a funding alternative.

Eircoms' future/telecoms investment is fundamental to Irelands' future especially given Irelands' current predicament.


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

If we get it, €7k for someone with a full allocation of shares.


----------



## hopalong

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

lots of talk at the moment of e----- going bust,also ways of avoiding this,one being esop ,who own one third of e----,getting together with another buyer,to keep the company going.still a question on people paying civil service stamp,they are not entitled to the dole,but work for a private company.looking bad for any esop money at the minute.


----------



## bilic04

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Is all hope gone of a windfall in june/july. was really bankin on the money to pay a few bills ,


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

All the unions have been asked to meet with the company tomorrow.  Apparently there is some big announcement being made on Friday.  I have no idea what it is as the unions haven't been told what to expect but it doesn't sound good.


----------



## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Anyone hear what happened at this meeting?


----------



## Stags Head

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

rumours of a  4 day week or reduced hours but then hopefully that's not true


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Only heard tid bits but it wasn't as bad as those rumours (4 day week etc) so far.  I heard it was mainly centred around reducing travel and sub, time in lieu, not paying bonuses etc.  I did hear that it emerged in this meeting that the top exec's were still going to get their bonuses but the unions put a stop to that.  I don't know if these things were agreed etc.  I suppose we will have to wait for the news to filter out tomorrow.


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi MB05,
            Have u any update on Eircom announcement on Friday-did it actually happen as it wasn't reported in papers/rte website as far as I can see?


----------



## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Okay.......still no definitive word on this? Most frustrating, have taken enough knocks this year already, not getting this payment really would put the icing on my cake of my despair!


----------



## shellco

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi there
I just rang Esop and the lady advised me that the board have not yet reached a decision on anything yet and if we are to have a payout we will receive the letter mid june....


----------



## IrlJidel

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



macbri said:


> Hi MB05,
> Have u any update on Eircom announcement on Friday-did it actually happen as it wasn't reported in papers/rte website as far as I can see?



Was in the Irish times. See [broken link removed]


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

No major announcements that I saw.  It was actually a very quiet news week for eircom other than the regulator taking another stab at cutting the LLU charge. 

I think the unions were expecting something other than what they got on Thursday.  A lot of it was stuff previously leaked in the newspapers and within the company itself.  It looks like that was the first of many meetings.  I think they are finally embracing the partnership process again.  

As I said before I take everything with a grain of salt these days as half of what comes out is rubbish.


----------



## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

[broken link removed]


> The employee Esot, which owns 34 per cent of Eircom, will also be a key player in determining the Irish company’s future.
> Mr Fitzpatrick was blunt in his assessment of what needs to happen next.
> “I think we need a new owner, preferably from the industry,” he said. “We need the new owner and* the Esot to put money on the table to invest in a new fibre network.”*


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Looks like the news came out a little later than first antiscipated.  It doesn't make for pretty reading!  It looks like the unions are pretty week as the company seem to have got it all their own way. I realise the company is in trouble and needs to cut costs but they didn't even manage to stop them asking for voluntary pay cuts.  With the pay freeze and cuts in all other bonuses and expenses etc + 1200 voluntary job cuts they should have been able to get the pay cuts off the table at least for a set timescale so that they can see if the current batch of cuts was enough to sustain the company going forward.  It's easy to hit the pay costs but they need to cut spending radically too.


----------



## dave28

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Since the unions have agreed 25% cut in mileage & substistance rates (along with pay freeze / cuts etc) will they now offer their members a 25% reduction on their union dues ????


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

It will more than likely go up seeing as they are actually speaking to management these days.  I was going to say negotiating but I don't think they know the meaning of the word!!


----------



## MI22

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I left eircom in 2001. Reduced pension is due to be paid when I reach 60yrs in 2012.Does anyone know if this is still guaranteed or where i could get definite information on same.


----------



## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Any updates on the shares this June/July. Come on MB50, you always have info hehe!


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I hve my fingrs crossed for a June/Julu allocation   ....it makes it bery BERY difficult to type proporly


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I know nothin!  The union boys are preoccupied these days.  There were rumours a while back that the ESOT were going to hold on to the money and buy more of the company (as part of a possible management buyout).  This rumour surfaced around the time of the Taemasbridge offer!  We that all but dead in the water who knows especially seeing as Cathal lost out on the top job.  Bet that hurts!


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Plenty of speculation in papers about BCM selling their stake.

Apparently,Eircom are doing a presentation to interested parties this week and BCM have extended their deadline beyond 30th June.

Government have also come out and stated that no interest in renationalising Eircom but would try and facilitate takeover by outside party-by this I hope they mean will relax current regulatory environment which to me has been pretty extreme.

I hope ESOP partake in takeover offer as its' critical that they maintain stake in Eircom(can't see distribution happening this year).

Results are out on 27th May so might get further updates then.


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

any update on what happened on the 27th? Or even word on a possible June/July payout?


----------



## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Amen to that ph! If anyone has a clue what's happening with our payout please 'fess up......


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Bad news guys...

Word is it's only €2k.  It is going to be interesting to see how they explain only giving us €2k when we are due a guaranteed payment of €7k.  What are they doing with the other €5k?


----------



## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Noooooooooooo.........what a swizz! Any excuse to shortchange us. Suppose should be content with small mercies at this stage though. Very hard to swallow.


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

any word on what date this allocation is happening?


----------



## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Okay. My source is of the opinion that that payment will be withheld for 2009. The money will be kept in a fund (ha!) and distributed at an undecided date in the future. A case of live horse and get grass. If the money is there we should have it.

My problem is that I have been told that this decision has been made in order to avoid a PR storm. Not a good enough reason in my opinion to hold anything back. I'm sorry, but our so called representatives on the board of trustees are clearly not working in the interests of union members. We gave them a mandate to act on our behalf but surely this can't go unchallenged in the face of a major error in judgement, which I believe this to be.

Is there anything we can do?


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I agree….

….If this is supposedly our last guaranteed allocation, then shouldn’t we have the opportunity to decide by voting as to whether or not to receive a payout, as normal, or to have the funds re-invested?


----------



## Montreal

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi Guys,
I agree wholeheartedly with the above. I'm ex eircom and depend on this yearly windfall to clear outstanding bills etc. We understood the pay-outs this year were scheduled for June and Nov/Dec. These shares are there for the benefit of the members of ESOP not the benefit of the Board of Trustees. I don't want to see them disappear into a black hole in eircom.
I would like to see a ballot among all members of ESOP regarding pay-out immediately.
Regards all.


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

With the majority of members now outside the company the ESOP should really be wrapped up and payment in full given out. But this i know nothing attitude from ESOP is really frustrating. People are depending on the money for all sorts of things and the uncertainty is frustrating. The board are acting like gods and should be far more transparent and forthcoming with information.


----------



## twinnie

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

i agree,im ex eircom the esop website is a joke,and they never can give you any info when you call them.We dont get these distributions for nothing,yes and also think the esop should be wound up and give us our money that we are entitled to.


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I don't want to get anybodies hopes up   ....but, there's a rumor circulating this morning that we're going to receive 7k on June 30th.


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



dr1nky said:


> I don't want to get anybodies hopes up   ....but, there's a rumor circulating this morning that we're going to receive 7k on June 30th.




unfortuantely rumours like this, will get peoples hopes up - guess we have to wait and see if (eventually) the esop website will be updated to reflect the truth about this rumour


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Yes, but I wouldn't post it unless it was from a good source. I mean, he heard 2k before it was posted on here. We'll just have to wait and see... 
(not much else that we can do!)


----------



## Eircomlifer

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I heard the same rumour as dr1nky yesterday, full allocation will be 7k (heard it from several very reliable peeps).


----------



## twinnie

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

lets keep our fingers crossed,i might be able to bring the family on a holiday this year!


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

well then lets wait and see what happens (currently praying to various gods and a small mouse that this happens  )


----------



## doughnut

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Eircomlifer said:


> I heard the same rumour as dr1nky yesterday, full allocation will be 7k (heard it from several very reliable peeps).


esop as transparent as the union used to be (are not) left messages on esop site not even a message to say they got them dont think they log in to their own site


----------



## inknow

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

i got reply from esop yesterday, all they say is trustees have not made any announcement but there will be an announcement in an esop extra newsletter before end of month. their website has to be one of the worst. Do the trustees not realise that people have made decisisons on an understanding there was to be a 7000 payout this june.


----------



## doughnut

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



inknow said:


> i got reply from esop yesterday, all they say is trustees have not made any announcement but there will be an announcement in an esop extra newsletter before end of month. their website has to be one of the worst. Do the trustees not realise that people have made decisisons on an understanding there was to be a 7000 payout this june.


 if they are sending out a news letter it prob. means no money this summer


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



doughnut said:


> if they are sending out a news letter it prob. means no money this summer


 
.....but they always send us correspondence beforehand anyway?!


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



dr1nky said:


> .....but they always send us correspondence beforehand anyway?!




aye they do - but this is now bordering on messing people around.

as already stated people have made decision on expecting to recieve this payout - like me, was hoping to clear some debts up, and if this falls through, I am going to get screwed.

Here's hoping someone with ESOP is actually paying attention to this (though I doubt it)


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

lets get this straight. The shares will be redeemed. The board will then decide whether or not we get the money or if they will re-invest some or all of it in the company. At this stage a substantial majority of ESOT are now outside the company and would probably prefer if the whole thing was wrapped up and monies distributed. At the end of the day no employee or ex employee has made a killing on this, maybe a holiday here or there or upgrading their car but there are a lot of people at union level have made a hell of a lot of money and they want to keep this going as long as possible. Maybe it's time for voices to be heard.


----------



## Montreal

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I agree with Alfaphil regarding union people doing well out of it. I certainly don't want to see our money going back into a black hole. Surely we have to have some say in what happens. Anyone I have spoken to, past and present staff, want the money paid out. That should be enough for 'The Board'. What do they hope to achieve by investing it in eircom...might as well set fire to it. If the shares are redeemed then they must pay it out....all of it. People are depending on it, I know I am.


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Alfaphil said:


> Maybe it's time for voices to be heard.


 
I have an idea...

In 1972 a crack commando unit was sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit. These men promptly escaped from a maximum security stockade to the Los Angeles underground. Today, still wanted by the government, they survive as soldiers of fortune. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire ...The A-Team. 

I'll give Hannibal a shout and see if there's anything that he can do. If he is able to help, there's a box of Cubans in it for him out of my allocation! 

If he's busy, sure I'll give Michael Knight a buzz. I'll splash out on a full valet for his car if he can help us  ...bound to put a smile on Kitts little face, as well as all of ours!


----------



## KPI

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Thanks for the laugh drinky , think we missrd the boat though . . . . . . . . Mr T was here recently


----------



## clojo

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Im afraid lads its a case of non information.
Every member should contact esop and demand info.
Its the board's duty to keep the members informed and up to date.
Remember......PRESSURE


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Clojo is right. Pressure has to be exerted. Anyone reading this should get on to anyone they know in eircom and spread the word. If there are enough posts here and it is brought to the attention of those who matter maybe the "mighty board" will take notice. Don't forget the union is run and paid for by the members (something the union folk should be reminded of).  I really think the whole thing should be wrapped up while there is something left before our money is swallowed up. (drinky keep up the humour)


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



KPI said:


> Mr T was here recently


 
I was thinking I seen him walking down O' Connell eating a 
Snickers all right....

....on a serious note though, 'Pressure' is the key! Clojo & Alfaphil, this particular topic has hailed 25,327 views since January 2008. We're all in the same boat, I suggest setting a day next week to hammer ESOP with calls demanding info (as sugested previously). What about Friday of next week to give us a chance to get the word around? We do 'own' 35% of the company after all and shouldn't be kept in the dark like this (in my humble opinion


----------



## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Friday sounds good to me!!! After all, we do own 35% of the company, eventhough we have no say in what's going on......it's a joke.
Do eircom employee's still have an internal computer forum??
It maybe an idea for a someone to post a messege and get the ball rolling for Friday.


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

They removed that forum years ago.  They probably didn't like the troops rallying. They frown upon staff interaction.  

Even the union guys are tight lipped at the moment.  Usually they get some info before the rest of us but if they did they are not saying.  I spoke to 3 of them over the last couple days and none of them would say.  As Hamlet would say "Something stinks in the state of Denmark"  (Sorry only quote I remember and in solidarity with the leaving cert students who had to sit the English Paper II test today.  They also got screwed by "the man" this week).


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Yes spread the word around about Friday. Let the pressure build and keep it on. All we want is what we are due. The lack of information is astounding.


----------



## twinnie

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Agree with Alfaphil,this whole esop thing is becoming much too secretive for my liking,someone somewhere is making a pile of money out of this and its definitely not the ordinary esop members.Lets wrap this up once and for all and stop drip feeding us information and money


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I heard 2k from my source....

....downer!

(and my mate feels that this is a definite!)


----------



## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Noooooooooooo........that's not good news. 

2k, but that's only if you have the full 11 drops.

What are they playing at?


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

this is sounding worse and worse as the weeks go by without any solid information


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



luckylou said:


> What are they playing at?


 
It looks suspiciously like they’re playing a game of ‘Give the Shareholders SFA’!!


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



dr1nky said:


> It looks suspiciously like they’re playing a game of ‘Give the Shareholders SFA’!!




hey I remember that game - isnt that the sequel to "Shareholders and the lost allocation"


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Well if that is the case there should be a new game called the union and its lost members.


----------



## Stags Head

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

or sack the board


----------



## Evertondub

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Agree that pressure needs to be exerted. Do the esop have an email address? Would be interesting to see what would happen if they got a flavour of the views on here by email. That way there's a record of the communication. If we phone we'll just get someone who know's probably as little as ourselves. The need to know our views not be given the chance to fob us off. 

We must remeber that the ESOP has become an entity in it's own right. A self-serving entity for the board members. Some of our previous colleages have got quite wealthy out of it and my suspicion is that they want to continue to re-invest to keep the whole thing rolling for their own benefit. It's a gravy train and if they wind it up, as the majority her seem to want and I agree, the gravy runs out for them. Its a bit like expecting turkeys to vote for Christmas! But that should not stop us letting our views be known. 

The job of a board of trustees is to represent the best interests of the members or the majority of the members. The majority of the ESOP (I estimate at least 60%) are no longer in the company. It does not serve our interests to have our money ploughed back into it. The only reason to reinvest would be to exert political muscle on the board and to keep the gravy flowing as I've already said. For those of us outside the company this is of no advantage. It makes no financial sense to reinvest in the company particularly at this time, as far as I can tell.


----------



## riddick1977

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

It's definitely 2k. I received a mail from the ESOP today and letters will be in the post early next week


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

This is a timely intervention by Evertondub. It is and has been a gravy train for union officials who at the end of the day are supposed to be serving the best interiests of the members both inside and outside the company. For those with full allocations who will get 2k where is your other 5k going? Into the black hole of eircom or into the  pockets of those supposedly representing us. My suggestion is that anyone reading this emails the esop tomorrow and rings them on the Friday demanding that this gravy train for certain people be derailed and the gravy being distributed to those who gave up so much to get the train on the tracks in the first place. PRESSURE as suggested before is the key. I would even go so far as to say union subscriptions should be ceased asap.


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

It is time for members to be heard for the first time. Use your email use the phone but more importantly ring your wages section and cease your subscriptions.


----------



## paddyc

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Its definately 2k max, cheques out first week in July. The esop extra which is being sent out next week will tell us why its down


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



paddyc said:


> Its definately 2k max, cheques out first week in July. The esop extra which is being sent out next week will tell us why its down




The words "boo" and "down with this sort of thing" spring to mind


----------



## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Riddick.............I'm absolutely amazed that you received any sort of correspondence from ESOP! Are you sending them complimentary breakfast rolls or something? What's your secret?

Couldn't agree more that pressure should be brought to bear on our 'representatives' and I use that term loosely. Far from quitting the union, I would recommend that all of you who have left should rejoin as independent members.

We have more power from within and there would then be a group of people involved who would represent ex-eircom workers with the right to reply as union members.

Just a thought!

Disgusted with the paltry 2K. How dare they withhold what is rightfully ours. Also agree with the theory that ESOP have become a self-perpetuating beaurocracy. There has been an inordinate amount of nest feathering done on the back of this scheme.

Time to get the begging bowl out to Mr Bank Manager........again! Talk about owing your soul to the company store!


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



penpusher said:


> Disgusted with the paltry 2K.



maybe they spent the rest of muffins and coffee to go with their breakfast rolls


----------



## Grover

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

This is rubbish. The money is ours and should be distributed. If there plan is to reinvest they are not doing what we want. Should there not have been a vote on holding back full allocations?


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Grover said:


> Should there not have been a vote on holding back full allocations?


 
No vote    .....& no hope by the looks of things. 

I'm sure their letter, to accompany the bad news, will be full of empty promises for the future too!!


----------



## twinnie

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

looks like this years holiday aint gonna happen!Seriously though,2K,i mean they could have even managed half of what we are due at 3.5K.This esop thing is a windup,stop wasting OUR money and give us what we are due,ALL of it Now....an extremely p.....d off esop member


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

mail your views to esop@eircom.ie Let yourselves be heard loud and clear.


----------



## Evertondub

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Agree with Penpusher....


> We have more power from within and there would then be a group of people involved who would represent ex-eircom workers with the right to reply as union members.


 
Any idea how this could be done?


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

As mentioned before you could join as an independent member.


----------



## Scouser

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

If they were to wind it up and payout everything, what would the payment be?


----------



## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

The trust still own 35% of the company, and that isn't liquid. They may feel the best way of protecting that is to retain cash so they are in a stronger position  (eg by buying eircom holdings, )


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

If that is the position so be it. But this allocation should be paid and maybe with consultation future allocations could be held for the same reason. As previously aired people were expecting their full amount at this time.


----------



## doughnut

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Alfaphil said:


> mail your views to esop@eircom.ie Let yourselves be heard loud and clear.


lets wait until we get news letter and then mail our views to both esop and union


----------



## Montreal

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Here is the email I sent to Jerome Barrett, I expect most of you feel the same??
His reply is at the bottom, see if you think he'll listen to anyone....I don't think so.

Sir,
I have been told that we will not receive our full allocation and redemption of shares this month because the 'ESOP Board' does not want to be seen handing out money in case it causes a 'media storm'. If this is so, what has our pay-out to do with anyone but ESOP. I undersatnd that the Board wants to redeem the shares and then 'invest' it back in Eircom. I have left eircom and do NOT want my money put back into this dinosaur. The ESOP Board are supposed to work for the benefit of all ESOP members, it seems more interested in ignoring the majority of the members and going their own merry way.
If, as I have also heard we are given €2k, where is the other €5k going??
I don't think you understand the depth of feeling around this amongst the members. Many people, including myself, rely on this twice yearly pay-out to clear bills etc. and we would prefer to see the ESOP wound up and the outstanding monies distributed now ( as there is an agreement in place with the Revenue Dept to so do ) than have it re-invested in eircom to maintain the gravy train for a chosen few. I am, by the way,still a CWU paid up member for the last 30 years and I expect the union to work for my benefit even though I have left eircom.
Yours Sincerely, etc.


Seamus,
Note your comments. ESOP extra will be issued shortly. Please read it carefully. If you have further queries arising , please contact the ESOP Office.
Regards
Jerome


----------



## twinnie

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

have just received an email from esop confirming 2k distibution,and am absolutely disgusted and dismayed by this.This money is OUR money ,the board seem to think it would be not in be in the best interest during the present economic climate to distribute what is rigtfully ours.We did not create this climate,speculators,bankers and politicians are the ones who should be penalised.Its time for our voices to be heard.


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Montreal said:


> Here is the email I sent to Jerome Barrett, I expect most of you feel the same??


 
EXACTLY the same...

Not much of an articulate response from Jerome there, I have to say!

Looks like we're out of luck here, and I doubt that they'll divulge any information as to when we're gonna receive the other 5k


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I have spoken today with some eircom employees who are dismayed at the cuts being implemented in the company at the moment with no apparent backing from the union. With income levies, pension levies, loss of on call allowances, reduction in sub, and the loss of teleworking and the prospect of a further reduction in pay of approx 5% the staff are demoralised and dismayed at the unions position. Then along come the union in the form of ESOT and say the allocation is being cut also. All this has done is alienate the members even further from those supposedly representing them (shafting them more like).


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Nice one dr1nky!  I think you speak for all 14000 ESOP members.

This is the last guaranteed payment.  This was supposed to be the last one we could be sure about.  What a joke!  When is a guaranteed payment not a guaranteed payment - when eircom and the ESOP are involved.  

We have a few Vodafone shares we can sell, after that we have no other way of extracting cash other than refloat on the stock exchange or take BCM shares instead which are worse than useless.

I don't necessarily want the ESOP to be wound up as I want to maximise my investment and now is not the time to sell anything.  I am going to be paying for these shares by way of pension contributions etc for another 25 years so there is no way I want to sell my shares for a pittance.  I would like to ride out the storm.  That being said, the ESOP board need to consult us more, update their website now and again, and generally treat us with a bit of respect.


The latest rumour doing the rounds is that the company was sold in the past week.  We know they made presentations to potential bidders last week so who knows.  This could be why the ESOT and the unions are not very forthcoming about the next allocation.


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



MB05 said:


> Nice one dr1nky! I think you speak for all 14000 ESOP members.


 
Cheers man!

I think you're right about the company being sold. I'd say they needed 'OUR' cash from ESOP as leverage to work a deal or something like that!

It certainly is a shame to see the last guaranteed allocation being plucked from our grasp like this, leaving a sour taste in our mouths and our opinion of Eircom & ESOP in general marred...

Looks like I'll be spending €1 on my new wheels instead of the amount I expected to be paying; only because it'll be a shopping trolley from a local Supermarket and not a new car!

Anyway, good luck to one and all and I'm sure I'll catch you all again next time that Eircom take us for a ride!

All the breast...

drinky

EMAIL SENT TO ESOP:
"I believe that we are only to receive 2k this allocation instead of the usual 7k -what is happening to the other 5k? If it is to be redeemed at a later date can you please tell me when this will be? DO NOT reply to me stating 'all the information that I require is contained within the Newsletter', soon to be posted to me! I am expecting that the answers that I am after will not be in it. I want to know when to expect the other part of my allocation (5k for full allocation holders) that is rightfully mine!"

ANSWER FROM ESOP:
Thank you for your comments. Notwithstanding these, I would recommend you read ESOP Extra 20 carefully which you can expect to receive within the next week.

HA HA  - Feckers!!

Anyway, laters....


----------



## Evertondub

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I agree with VincentJ....Surely having committed themselves to this payment they cannot simply pull the plug. And the idea that the current economic climate is a good reason to withold payment is ludicrous.....Surely, the payments are more important to everyone because of that!!.

But, it does seem like there is going to be some statement in the Newsletter....Best brace ourselves.


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

There just seems to be a standard reply to all emails. I got the same. Lads as far as I know the newsletter said the shares would be redeemed. It did not guarantee the payout. Having said that i agree that the currect economic climate should guarantee a full pay out not the opposite as is the case.


----------



## doughnut

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Montreal said:


> Here is the email I sent to Jerome Barrett, I expect most of you feel the same??
> His reply is at the bottom, see if you think he'll listen to anyone....I don't think so.
> 
> Sir,
> I have been told that we will not receive our full allocation and redemption of shares this month because the 'ESOP Board' does not want to be seen handing out money in case it causes a 'media storm'. If this is so, what has our pay-out to do with anyone but ESOP. I undersatnd that the Board wants to redeem the shares and then 'invest' it back in Eircom. I have left eircom and do NOT want my money put back into this dinosaur. The ESOP Board are supposed to work for the benefit of all ESOP members, it seems more interested in ignoring the majority of the members and going their own merry way.
> If, as I have also heard we are given €2k, where is the other €5k going??
> I don't think you understand the depth of feeling around this amongst the members. Many people, including myself, rely on this twice yearly pay-out to clear bills etc. and we would prefer to see the ESOP wound up and the outstanding monies distributed now ( as there is an agreement in place with the Revenue Dept to so do ) than have it re-invested in eircom to maintain the gravy train for a chosen few. I am, by the way,still a CWU paid up member for the last 30 years and I expect the union to work for my benefit even though I have left eircom.
> Yours Sincerely, etc.
> 
> 
> Seamus,
> Note your comments. ESOP extra will be issued shortly. Please read it carefully. If you have further queries arising , please contact the ESOP Office.
> Regards
> Jerome


----------



## doughnut

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

if the esop directors are worried about the media a good reply to them is that the money will be spent and goes back into the economy


----------



## paul o b

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

i sent an email to jerome barrett yesterday ,  pointing out to him that his remit is to act in the best interest of the general esop membership , and as the majority of that membership is now outside of eircom , for esop to do anything other then [firstly ] consult with , and aknowledge , the wishes of the members they have not acted in the best interest of the members . i also advised him that if the wishes of the majority were not considered in this matter then this whole issue would be more intensely ajudicated upon in another forum completely independent of eircom


----------



## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Did anyone get the ESOP issue in the post yet?


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

....nothing in todays post!


----------



## unstacked

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

You are as bad as me - I figured it was this time ( actually Friday last ) in 2008 that the letters went out

I have a small sum from esop compared to the full alocation - but somehow its handy all the same.


----------



## fossilwatch

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Its in the post - got mine today. Didn't read through it yet, just looked at the figure as I only have a part allocation.

Have been following this thread with interest so happy to contribute some info


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



fossilwatch said:


> Didn't read through it yet, just looked at the figure


 
Bring back full figured women  ......err, I mean full figured cheques


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



fossilwatch said:


> Its in the post - got mine today. Didn't read through it yet, just looked at the figure as I only have a part allocation.
> 
> Have been following this thread with interest so happy to contribute some info




how bad is the figure?


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

You forgot the 29c!!!  What are they playing at buying preference shares in that worthless shower's company.  Nearly €50million.  Based on recent bid's thats worth half of BCM's share.  We should own 2/3's of the company by rights.  These guys are playing silly buggers with our money.  They don't even explain this Rights Issue/preference share thing in plain english.  We need the financial regulator to break it down for us!!  "I don't know what a right issue of BCMIE SPC Preference Shares is".


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Hi MBO5,
Can u give further detail on the 50 million in preference shares.
From last Esop circular,we had 85 million in preference shares,has Esop increased this to 135m.

BCM net market value is zero because their share price basically equals their cash balance.

I'm based in Australia(ex Eircom employee) so unfortunately can't view latest Esop Extra report until its' updated on website.

From memory,last Esop report had 330 million in assets broken down by 165m valuation on 35% stake in Eircom,85 m in pref shares,40m in vodafone and balance in cash.

If Esop has taken additional preference shares then looks like it has everything invested in Eircom and their will be no further distributions until this investment can be released either by takeover or relisting of Eircom on stock exchange.


----------



## amtc

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Personally I'm quite glad to be getting 700 euro from a company that I left in 2000! Wouldn't like to be there now, some of the stories from HSQ are frightening!


----------



## penpusher

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Right on MB05! What I find particularly hilarious about this issue, apart from the scary pics of course, is that fact that the board of trustees state that they are not qualified to offer any financial advice to any of the members. Ironic, don't you think, when they have just made a decision regarding our shares to the tune of 50mil.

Another funny one was where they state that they are aware of how, (I paraphrase),  members are depending on this allocation. So, my reading of this is that they just chose to ignore this fact, regardless of their so called awareness.

Does anyone know what credentials this bunch of gargoyles hold? It's not stated under their ugly mugs.


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



amtc said:


> Personally I'm quite glad to be getting 700 euro from a company that I left in 2000! Wouldn't like to be there now, some of the stories from HSQ are frightening!




where did you get the 700 figure from?


----------



## fossilwatch

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

amtc is probably same as me - ex eircell\VF employee therefore not entitled to same payout as eircom and payment pro-rata depending on when you joined the company during the eligibility period.

My own payout was just over 700 - which* is* nice to get from a company I left 5 yrs ago but still a b*lls when I was expecting almost 3k.


----------



## amtc

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

yeah, don't have a full allocation


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

macbri, not sure of the part you require but there is a chart showing before and after "redemption & rights issue"

Before Redemption & Rights Issue (June)

115.4m BCMIE SPC Ordinary Shares (35%)

49.2m BCMIE SPC Preference Shares 

135.8m BCMIH Preference Shares

36.1m Vodafone Shares


After Redemption & Rights Issue (July)

115.4m BCMIE SPC Ordinary Shares (35%)

98.8m BCMIE SPC Preference Shares 

None

36.1m Vodafone Shares

Hopefully this means more to you than it does to me.  The current distribution is €19.7m = €2k each per full allocation member.


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Thanks MB05,
                  It looks like Esop have increased their investment of BCMIH Preference shares by 50m.

Vodafone stake is worth just under 50 m euros given current vodafone share price/exchange rate which is a lot more than I thought it would be and would equate to 5k per member assuming full allocation.

It looks like all excess cash in Esop is now tied into Eircom or vodafone shares.

I left Eircom in late 2000 so have 30% approx allocation but bought 50000 BCM shares in Australia in early 2009 as they were trading below cash value (ie assuming no valuation for Eircom).

Any word yet on how takeover bids are progressing?


----------



## paul o b

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

i also have sent an e mail to them . my understanding of when esop started was they were going to have regular meetings with the staff to keep us informed of what was happening . i understood these meetings were going to take place at least twice a year . we have not had a meeting with them for years now . they are a law onto themselfs . they also did not tell us at the time that we could only get so much per year till the esop was up and running , and even then they decided to break that in to two payments instead of 1 payment for euro 12,700 , now they have decided to only give 2 k what next nothing at all ? there is a believe out there that these people are prolonging the esop just to keep themselfs in a job i, now subscribe to that view also


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

i just find it galling that 11 people whose pockets have been well lined are controlling the finances concerning 14,000 plus without any consultation whatsoever. The reason for no consultation is probably because the vast majority of the 14000 are now outside of eircom and would recommend the wrapping up of their gravy train. I have emailed esop to this effect but to date have had no reply.


----------



## Evertondub

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

If there was ever any doubt that the ESOP now exists for the benefit of the board only, have a read of one of the reasons they give for the reduced allocation...





> the need to have sufficient income to fund ESOP operations


 
That says it all as far as I'm concerned....What does that erstwhile friend of the working man, Scanlon's 's puppet Fitzpatrick have to say about this???

I'm out of the company a few years now and I don't understand why those in there aren't raising blue murder. Remember the union campaign before privatisation 'Don't let the fat cats get their hands on Eirocom'...Looks like they did after all. And the fattest cat of all is big Con. It was all a big con.. and we're the ones getting screwed.


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Evertondub is spot on with his comments. Maybe the time has come for a show of strength. Anyone interested in a peaceful protest outside ESOP HQ on an appointed day for 1 hour. Before this protest if people in eircom buildings around the country could get their colleagues to sign a petition expressing their dismay at this allocation and what is happening to our funds without our consent. The petition could be handed in on the day of the protest. If something is not done now there is every possibility that future allocations (if any) will be of a reduced nature with the rest of the money paying the inflated salaries of people who have lost touch with reality.


----------



## paul o b

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

yeah count me in i will certainly sign a pettition and protest as well just let me know when and where you propose to do this


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

I would propose that it takes place at the postal adress of the esop trustee. a date is to be confirmed.


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

any indication of a definite date for the payout?


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Alfaphil said:


> Anyone interested in a peaceful protest outside ESOP HQ on an appointed day for 1 hour. Before this protest if people in eircom buildings around the country could get their colleagues to sign a petition expressing their dismay at this allocation and what is happening to our funds without our consent.


 
....count me in!


----------



## fossilwatch

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Is an online petition possible?


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Just wondering - has anyone NOT received the newsletter yet - I havent and I am getting a little concerned


----------



## Evertondub

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Agree with AlphaPhil and everyone else re protest. Definitely worth doing. Also think the idea of an online petition is a good one. The difficulty will be organising and mobilising people. Most of us are now out of the company. Any ideas?


----------



## luckylou

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

The media might be interested in this?? A bit of coverage would make all the diffrence. I know that joe public couldn't give a dame about us winging because we only received 2k, but it would look very bad for Eircom.......ripping off customers..........ripping off staff. 
Also the new bidder/buyer may think twice about how friendly the ESOP unit really are to work with.


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Outside HSQ on a day a possible bidder is due in maybe!!!  Maximum impact.  

macbri, no white smoke yet.  

Article in the Irish indo today about them withholding the 50m.  it mentions some of the potential bidders.

http://www.independent.ie/business/...450m-as--eircom-bid-war-heats-up-1775701.html


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Anyone in the company that can guide us on a online petition ??. Those of you who work in the company see if numbers can be added to peaceful protest. It can be a dual protest. One outside ESOP HQ and one outside Eircom's spanking new HQ.


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Alfaphil said:


> Anyone in the company that can guide us on a online petition ??


 
Further to this, why don't we start a new thread here called 'ESOP Members - Online Petition' (or something similar) and use this as the petition? We can direct people from this Post (30,000+ views here thus far) to the new thread to sign...

....just a thought!


----------



## Evertondub

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Good idea Drinky....We could do this straight away too. Are you still in the company? Does anyone know what the feeling on the ground is in there and do people have any forum for expressing their views.....Someone mentioned the Intranet in Eircom on here....


----------



## ph3n0m

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

ugh, got my letter today - 600-odd euro....no wonder my balls feel sore, I think I have just been kicked repeatedly in them


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Evertondub said:


> Are you still in the company?


 
Nah man, I 'left' the day that I got the 11th, and final, allocation of shares


----------



## Sarge

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Evertondub said:


> Good idea Drinky....We could do this straight away too. Are you still in the company? Does anyone know what the feeling on the ground is in there and do people have any forum for expressing their views.....Someone mentioned the Intranet in Eircom on here....


 Evertondub and all other disgruntled ex eircom (including myself) - Heading towards 500,000 on the dole - people losing their livelihoods on a daily basis and no prospects of finding work. Can we please stop *****ing about this - I'm just as annoyed with esop but I'm still getting 2k and I for one would be ashamed to complain to the public about this. I have financial worries as well but I consider myself very fortunate to have guaranteed employment.


----------



## Evertondub

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Sarge.....re your quote...





> I have financial worries as well but I consider myself very fortunate to have guaranteed employment.


I don't understand the releavance of this to the situation with ESOP....I too am fortunate enough to be earning and appreciate it. My disgruntlement with ESOP is that I believe that that the board is not acting in the best interests of me and people like me and it would seem many others feel the same. Maybe you have a different view, or as you say, would feel ashamed to express your true thoughts and feelings about it all and that's fair enough,I respect that. Perhaps you'd be good enough to afford me and others the same respect.


----------



## Alfaphil

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Understand where your coming from Sarge but all we want is what we are entitled to and what was paid for in various cuts and work practices. The current state of eircom is a debt of 4billion. Do you want more shares in a huge debt. I dont. I want out as do most others. 

Drinky any chance can you start the online petition through the new thread.


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Sarge said:


> I have financial worries as well but I consider myself very fortunate to have guaranteed employment.


 
Ditto....

....but this was our last guranteed payout - our worry is that the board seem to be doing whatever they like without listening to our point of view by at least taking decisions that involve each and every one of us to a vote.

Maybe we should take an optimistic point of view and keep our fingers crossed that, looking to the future, it turns out to be a worthwhile decision. 

It's the lack of communication from ESOP that is what frustrates us the most!


----------



## dr1nky

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Alfaphil said:


> Drinky any chance can you start the online petition through the new thread.


 
Alfaphil, let me look into setting up a basic website over the weekend instead. I thought that an online petition via this forum might be a good idea initially, but after giving it more consideration I feel that we should keep it seperate and leave a 'third party' forum such as 'askaboutmoney' out of it 

I'll update you all on Monday


----------



## Sarge

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



Evertondub said:


> Sarge.....re your quote...
> I don't understand the releavance of this to the situation with ESOP....I too am fortunate enough to be earning and appreciate it. My disgruntlement with ESOP is that I believe that that the board is not acting in the best interests of me and people like me and it would seem many others feel the same. Maybe you have a different view, or as you say, would feel ashamed to express your true thoughts and feelings about it all and that's fair enough,I respect that. Perhaps you'd be good enough to afford me and others the same respect.


 Evertondub - apologies for not replying earlier - I would have thought that the current economic situation is relevant to esop - hence the reduced allocation. All I am saying is that I would feel embarassed standing outside esops office and explaining to the curious passing public that they are only giving me 2k. How would that look to recent and continuous unemployed on 6pm news? I agree with most of the points already made - just trying to keep things in perspective.


----------



## cerberos

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Mebbe some should be returned to the original owner of the business - the PAYE taxpayer.
We could provide Scanners , Carer's Allowance, Hospices, etc.


----------



## KPI

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Any rumours of a christmas payout yet?  I have the 29c spent & the cheque not even here yet . . . . . . !


----------



## jdwex

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Employee share trust supports STT bid for Eircom
extracts from
[broken link removed]



> With the Esop owning 35 per cent of Eircom, STT has now moved into pole position in the race to acquire the Irish business from Sydney-listed parent Eircom Holdings.
> In a bulletin issued to members late yesterday, Jerome Barrett, chairman of the Esop, said: “The Esop board recently considered a request from Singapore Technologies Telemedia (STT) to support their bid on an exclusive basis for a period of time. The Esop board has agreed to this.”
> 
> It is understood that the Esop, which has about 14,000 members, wants to secure a long-term investor for Eircom and sees an industry player as the best strategic option. It is likely that the Esop would retain a large stake in Eircom if STT’s bid is successful.
> The trust recently withheld just under €50 million in dividend payments to its members to build a war chest for any possible involvement in a bid for Eircom. It was reported to have had reserves of €100 million previously.
> 
> An industry player is likely to take a longer term view when assessing strategic goals and investment priorities compared with a private equity player, which would have a three- to five-year horizon in terms of netting a return on its investment.
> 
> Founded in 1994, STT specialises in mobile communications. It is a 75 per cent investor in Asia Mobile Holdings, which has mobile interests in Singapore, Laos and Cambodia. It also owns Global Crossing, the fibre-optic cable firm with operations in Ireland.


----------



## MB05

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

Interesting move.  As usual the staff communication they refer to came after we all went home yesterday!

Sarge, 

I think you are missing the point slightly.  Yes people are annoyed they didn't get their full allocation but I think they are more annoyed at the ESOP board for not keeping us informed.  If they were more forthcoming with what they were doing and why they were doing it i.e. protecting the rest of our investment in the event of a hostile takeover etc people might be more willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I personally feel if they are using what is essentially my money to fund something the least they can do is tell me what they are doing and why they are doing it. In all probability this money will be given to us at a later date (if it is not needed to fund a takeover) i.e. December but how are we supposed to know that as again they tell us nothing.  

As a past employee you have stopped paying for your shares.  I as a current employee will probably end up paying all the share money back by the time I retire. 5.3% of my wages has been taken every week for the last 10 years and will be for the next 25.  Our bonuses, overtime, mileage allowances etc have all been done away with or slashed aggressively.  There is no clear career progression and very little scope for training.  Moral is at an all time low and we have job cuts, pay cuts etc all to look forward to so forgive me if I don't give a flying fig what the general public think.  The media has never given a balanced report in relation to our shares.  They always say we got the shares for nothing.

cerberos, 

The taxpayer was one of the biggest winners in the sale of eircom.  The government made more money out of the company than anyone else.  They cashed out and left the table so they are no longer in the game.  It is my understanding that they got billions from the sale and plugged it into the state pension fund (which I read somewhere is now being used to bail out the banks).  It was their mishandling of the sale which caused a lot of the problems we have today.  They overvalued the company at the launch and this together with KPN/Telia bailing out shortly after resulted in the first of a number of opportunistic takeovers, each one stripping out more and more of the assets and landing us more and more in debt.  Yes, the ESOP benefited from the subsequent sales but it doesn't mean we have to like what has happened to the company.


----------



## doughnut

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*

eircom esop has become its own little company keeping a building and its own workers laying out money to the rothschield ashurst and merrion it spends money on glossy magazines (in this day and age) and does not ask its share holders which way it should go foreward it is so undemocratic i wonder do any of them look at askaboutmoney


----------



## cerberos

Just proves that Unions are the same as the "Capitalists" they despise. Every 1 is out for themselves and Social Justice is all talk.
The taxpayer was basically robbed by the management and unions, even David Begg regrets what happened.

Thats history and we need to remember lest history repeats itself (and it looks like it is with Nama, banks and developers)


----------



## macbri

The unions have done well out of Esop but so have employees and ex employees of Eircom(like me).

I applaud the unions for having foresight to negotiate Esop way back in mid nineties although there does now seem to be some issues in communicating with members.
For example,I was on Esop website and it still hasn't updated with latest Esop Extra that was sent out in the post which is frustating as I'm based in Australia and this is only means of keeping up to date with latest developments.

The taxpayer has also done well out of Eircom-$8.8 billion was raised in 1999 from listing of Eircom which is only a fraction of what its' worth now.

The big losers were the people who bought Eircoms' shares when it listed on market in 1999(including me)


----------



## macbri

*Re: eircom esop when's our next windfall?*



jdwex said:


> Employee share trust supports STT bid for Eircom
> extracts from
> [broken link removed]


 

Intesesting news.

I checked the BCM website but no updates on it.

BCM have also not sent us any information on shareholder meeting but they indicated previously that they would be returning cash reserves to shareholders in July.

STT would seem to be the best strategic fit for Eircom who with all the doom and gloom out there are still a very profitable company.


----------



## jdwex

Vincent, if the tone of your (5!!) emails is anything like your last post I'm not surprised you didn't get a reply. I think myself that a deal with STT could work out quite well. STT previously bought Global Crossing, and were able to negotiate the bond holders into writing down a lot of the loans the had made. Granted, we don't get as much money this month as we thought we  would, but we could end up a lot better in the long run.


----------



## Alfaphil

Whoah Lads and Ladies your all missing the point. This was the last guaranteed allocation and it has been taken away to buy more of the 4 billion euro debt that eircom is. Does anyone see the sense in that. It is also as quoted in the newsletter being used to fund ESOP operations i.e. lining the pockets of those who have forgotten the grassroots (that is us). Don't be fooled. There are a handful of people making big money on our backs. 

Dr1nky any luck with that petition. Don't let this drop. 

P.S. i sent a civilised email but got no reply.


----------



## macbri

Looking at the Sydney Business Post and Financial Times,it looks like STT are going to make a formal bid for Eircom Holdings this week(possibly 2day Tuesday)

Interesting times ahead


----------



## dr1nky

Alfaphil said:


> Dr1nky any luck with that petition. Don't let this drop.


 
I haven't forgotten, don't worry   - was busy the weekend but will try and get it sorted this week for sure!

On another note, it should be interesting to see what happens with the STT bid!


----------



## jdwex

I contacted the esot not so long ago with my views regarding the composition of eircom's board.
I never took any cash distribution as being "promised"

June 2008


> "When will the ESOP be making future Distributions?
> There are no certainties in these matters, as participants will have come to understand. However,
> barring unforeseen events, and as long as the Trustee continues to meet its obligations under the
> terms of the Ulster Bank loan, the ESOP is hopeful that it can make further distributions to participants.
> Following this distribution, the last remaining tranche of BCMIH Preference Shares will be
> due to be redeemed in June 2009."


 
November 2007


> "When will the ESOP be making future Distributions?
> There are no certainties in these matters, as participants will have come to understand. However,
> barring unforeseen events, and as long as the Trustee continues to meet its obligations under the
> terms of the Ulster Bank loan, the ESOP is hopeful that it can make further distributions to
> participants . As advised in ESOP Extra 16, there are two remaining tranches of BCMIH
> Preference Shares which are due to be redeemed in 2008 and 2009."


My own view is , as stated earlier, an investment with STT seems to be the best option for the Trust and its members. I suspect that people who want their jam today ate it yesterday!


----------



## macbri

That was my understanding of Esop that there was no guarantee and transfer to members was at discretion of trustees.

Anyway on other matters,Eircom Holdings(formerly BCM) have just gone on a trading halt over here in Australia pending an announcement on update of takeover offers for it.

I think this is relevant to Esop holders as Esop own 35% of Eircom and takeover offer for Eircom holdings will put a market value on this stake-currently valued by sharemarket at zero.


----------



## MB05

To macbri and any ESOP shareholders else that mightn't see Union bumph re:sale of eircom.

The CWU issued a statement stating that they are disappointed with the luke warm response by the Aussies to STT's offer.  They too see STT as the only viable suitor and do not want to see the company sold to venture capitalists again.  They have issued a warning to the company stating that recent concessions by staff in relation to pay and other cost cutting measures were given to promote the long term financial viability of the company and to protect the future of the company/as many jobs as possible and not to bump up the sale price for them.  All bets are off if the best interests of the company's future are not served.

The other unions circulated the statement so they seem to be rowing in with it.

The media stated recently that a lot of the prospective bidders only became interested after the cost cutting measures were agreed by the unions.  Looks like the ESOP and the unions are turning the screws and saying saying STT or nothing!


----------



## macbri

Yes seen that MB05.

STT bid values Eircom at practically zero so assume Eircom holdings shareholders will not vote for takeover(thats' what board has recomended here in Australia)

Share price of Eircom Holdings is basically trading at cash value which company has stated will be returned to shareholders before end of September.

Eircom holdings has nothing to lose by holding onto Eircom unless a bid comes in which gives a return to shareholders.


----------



## MB05

Looks like they are at an impass.  Doubt the sale will go ahead any time soon.  Unions and ESOP have both come out strongly saying 'only an industry player will do' and will make life difficult for any prospective buyer they don't approve of and the Aussies have nothing to lose by holding on based on current offers.

I wonder if the ESOP and current management will try to stage a management buyout.


----------



## macbri

I don't think it would take that much for Esop/management to buy out Eircom Holdings stake.

They could then use this to bring in an industry player.

I was in Eircom when KPN/Telia were involved and worked with some talented people from both those companies.

Eircom holdings are suppose to issue a statement early in July about their future intentions re Eircom if Singapores bid is rejected.

To be honest,the whole bloody thing is a mess.


----------



## doughnut

macbri said:


> I don't think it would take that much for Esop/management to buy out Eircom Holdings stake.
> 
> They could then use this to bring in an industry player.
> 
> I was in Eircom when KPN/Telia were involved and worked with some talented people from both those companies.
> 
> Eircom holdings are suppose to issue a statement early in July about their future intentions re Eircom if Singapores bid is rejected.
> 
> To be honest,the whole bloody thing is a mess.


 esop pack it in give us our money and let the greedy lot get on with it


----------



## dr1nky

Cheques arriving Monday apparently folks!


----------



## ph3n0m

aye cheque arrived, i opened it, its now gone


----------



## MB05

This cheque will self destruct in 10, 9, 8 .....


----------



## macbri

Eircom Holdings just released statement on latest situation to its' shareholders.

Main Points

1-Returning cash equivalent to 80 cent per share to shareholders by end of September

2-Received 15m from Eircom for monies outstanding over previous 2 years

3-Not recommending STT offer in current format.

4-Will continue strategic review of Eircom investment over next 6-12 months.

So it looks like as MB05 previously stated, stalemate for forseeable future


----------



## ph3n0m

macbri said:


> Eircom Holdings just released statement on latest situation to its' shareholders.
> 
> Main Points
> 
> 1-Returning cash equivalent to 80 cent per share to shareholders by end of September
> 
> 2-Received 15m from Eircom for monies outstanding over previous 2 years
> 
> 3-Not recommending STT offer in current format.
> 
> 4-Will continue strategic review of Eircom investment over next 6-12 months.
> 
> So it looks like as MB05 previously stated, stalemate for forseeable future



So does point 1 have any relevance to the ESOP?


----------



## macbri

No relevance to Esop as this return will be made to Eircom Holdings shareholders(formerly BCM).

Eircom Holdings will retain a small cash holding for what they term working capital purposes.

It looks like stalemate for forseeable future


----------



## vincentj

Hi folks im back sorry to anybody i offended i was so annoyed
with esop, i got a bit carried away.


----------



## MB05

I wonder how we owe them €15m!!!  Probably for the wonderful management services they provide!

I fear the longer the stalemate goes on the longer the ESOP will hold on to our money!!


----------



## macbri

Hey Vincent,
                  No worries-I have been called worse than a plonker before so take no offence.


----------



## dr1nky

For anybody wondering why I haven't set up a website, re: a petition with regards to the ESOP board withholding information and their basic lack of communication to the members, I was waiting to see what would happen with regards to the STT situation...

....if people still think it's a good idea then I'll set it up. Can I have a show of hands please?

Cheers!


----------



## macbri

I certainly will sign it.

The lack of information on the website is appaling even trying to find out what the Esop currently owns is very hard to find(at least I can't find it)

I have used this thread to keep up to date with Esop as Esop website just doesn't keep me informed.


----------



## Evertondub

> I certainly will sign it.
> 
> The lack of information on the website is appaling even trying to find out what the Esop currently owns is very hard to find(at least I can't find it)
> 
> I have used this thread to keep up to date with Esop as Esop website just doesn't keep me informed.


 
i agree with macbri.That is the main problem...not knowing where we currently stand or what the current work of our individual allocatoins is. I think it's a good idea to go ahead with a website if just to share information and allow other people a forum to express how they feel. Not sure too many know about this thread.


----------



## MB05

I'm in.


----------



## dr1nky

Grand, sure I'll sort something out over the weekend sure!


----------



## paul o b

do we even know if the stt bid has been excepted ? if it is what does that mean for us ? when will we know ? how long does the whole process of selling take ? does this mean there is a possibility of us getting more money any time soon ? anyone know the answers to these questions ?


----------



## doughnut

dr1nky said:


> Grand, sure I'll sort something out over the weekend sure!


im in


----------



## luckylou

+1
( I think it's a great idea )


----------



## kbie

Count me as well


----------



## macbri

Irish independent on Saturday has article saying that Eircom executives have flown to Singapore to meet with STT and Eircom Holdings so it looks like current stalemate could be broken.

My gut feeling on this is that STT will eventually take control of Eircom Holdings as it seems all parties are striding to make this happen.

On other matters ,rang home yesterday and Dad told me cheque of 521 euros from Esop arrived in post(spending money for my holiday in Ireland)


----------



## dr1nky

macbri said:


> cheque of 521 euros from Esop arrived in post(spending money for my holiday in Ireland)


 
That'll just about pay for a night out in Dublin 
(bus home though as it'll hardly pay for a taxi )

Any ideas on the wording for the webiste please? (key inclusions etc.)

Cheers!


----------



## luckylou

"Time is running out", or that's what the newspapers said, about the sale of eircom to STT. They said yesterday - 05th of August was the cut off day, for esop's backing/support for eircom holdings. 
Anyone have an update on what's going on and also if the company isn't sold, will that mean we'll get our money back?


----------



## paul o b

luckylou said:


> "Time is running out", or that's what the newspapers said, about the sale of eircom to STT. They said yesterday - 05th of August was the cut off day, for esop's backing/support for eircom holdings.
> Anyone have an update on what's going on and also if the company isn't sold, will that mean we'll get our money back?


----------



## paul o b

heard a roumer that we are to be offered 40 000 a man for our shares because they dont want us having ownership of any part of the company


----------



## ph3n0m

paul o b said:


> heard a roumer that we are to be offered 40 000 a man for our shares because they dont want us having ownership of any part of the company




Quote your source please - this is the kind of stuff that can get peoples hopes up, etc

And ultimately rumours are just that (which is unfortunate, given half the rumours I have heard over the past few years about ESOP)


----------



## paul o b

ph3n0m said:


> Quote your source please - this is the kind of stuff that can get peoples hopes up, etc
> 
> And ultimately rumours are just that (which is unfortunate, given half the rumours I have heard over the past few years about ESOP)


----------



## paul o b

i am told there is a story in todays irish times relating to the bid by s t t i have not got the paper yet so i dont know whats in it page 21 i am told


----------



## macbri

STT have raised their offer for Eircom Holdings(formerly BCM)

If offer accepted by Eircom Holdings,STT will pay a premium of 40 cents AUD to Eircom Holdings shareholders over current cash value of Eircom Holdings(current estimate 97 cent Aud)

Eircom Holding shareholders have option of not receiving 40 cent premium and receiving equivalent shareholding in new company being set up which will be incorporated in Caymen Islands.

Esop will swap their current 35% stake in Eircom for 35% stake in new incorporated company set up in Cayman Islands.


----------



## luckylou

So, what will the esop members gain from this new take over, if it happens?
I'm very browned off with the esop unit! Not a word or an update on the webpage.


----------



## paul o b

well luckylou the esops response to all previous takeovers was to get themselves  a bigger slice of the action , i have no reason to think it will be any different this time . they only seem to want to buy into the company as much as possible even though this is against the wishes of the vast majority of the members who just want whatever monies are due to them . as i said before this is their way of keeping themselves in a job , not to mention the fact that former c w u staff have also been looked after and are on the pay roll of e s o p


----------



## ph3n0m

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]


----------



## ph3n0m

Hmmm interesting reading in today's Irish Times

[broken link removed]


----------



## paul o b

but what does all this mean should the revenue not grant permission to continue issuing shares ?


----------



## paul o b

anyone see todays sunday business post ? i was talking to liz from esop office on friday and she told me the part about whether revenue would agree to continue with tax free payments [as reported in last weeks times ] was only a formality . well that is not the case according to sunday business post in fact if you read the report it looks more like they will not agree to it . so back to my previous question in an earlier post what does it mean for us if they dont agree ?


----------



## luckylou

I've just read the Sunday Business Post also, uugghhhhh. 

If the revenue decide against the tax free drops, including the triple payment (and I think they will), will ESOP still buy into STT (which would be stupid) or will they have more sence and disolve ESOP now before Eircom holdings sign contracts.

It's not looking good for us.


----------



## paul o b

on two occasions the esop have told me that if they made a triple payment of 38 000 euro they might as well close the door behind them as there would be nothing left . well i would mind them closing the door if i could get 38 000 in one go


----------



## macbri

STT offer for Eircom Holdings values Esop stake in Eircom at around 25m euros.This contrasts with 165m valuation put on Eircom stake in Esop circulation sent out last year.

Coupled with the tanking in vodafone shares this year-Esop value per member full allocation would currently be between 10-15k euro assuming payout is tax free.


----------



## ph3n0m

opinion piece in irish times

[broken link removed]


----------



## paul o b

are you saying 10 k to 15 k is about the total left in the esop per full allocation member . thats disopointing i thought there was about 40,000 left per member


----------



## macbri

Yes-from memory over half of Esops assets last year were 35% stake in Eircom which Esop valued at 165m euro.
Based on STT offer for Eircom Holdings,this stake now worth only 20m.

They also had substanial vodafone holding which has taken a hammering due to sterling devaluatin against euro.

In my opinion,the best option for Esop members is to align with STT and increase value of Eircom over next 3 years.

Thats' only my opinion but biggest frustration for me is lack of information from Esop website.


----------



## doughnut

is it not now law that companies must give full information to shareholders when asked (newspapers last week)


----------



## dr1nky

Todays Independent:


----------



## macbri

Looks like its' a done deal from article.

Its' a big positive that STT is a major telecommunications player rather than previous owners who basically borrowed Eircom too hilt to make returns.

Interestingly,Stt have mooted a shareholder float of Eircom  in 2011 which should provide Esop with exit strategy to return members funds by 2012 deadline.

Article also mentions that Esop has retained its' tax free status which is another big positive


----------



## paul o b

do you mean the 2014 deadline ?


----------



## macbri

Yes, whenever Esop has to distribute all its' funds to its' members


----------



## paul o b

anyone heard anything ? is the company sold ? what does it mean for when it is sold ? does it mean another payout this year ?


----------



## doughnut

paul o b said:


> anyone heard anything ? is the company sold ? what does it mean for when it is sold ? does it mean another payout this year ?


i dont think it will happen for at least a year this is what happened last time it was sold  can anybody verify if company has been sold as the esop news is useless


----------



## Burman

I am an ex eircom employee and i am very frustrated at the lack of info from esop. Having contacted them on a number of occasions i feel I am being treated like a child. If we were share holders in any other organisation we we have a lot more say in how its run. I think setiing up a website is a good idea and i know that they is intrest among my old collegues still working in eircom


----------



## dr1nky

Burman said:


> I think setiing up a website is a good idea and i know that they is intrest among my old collegues still working in eircom


 
What should be included in the petition along with:
- lack of communication from the ESOP board
- poor ESOP website
- ?
- ?

We can easily put something together and post it on http://www.petitiononline.com/

Dr1nKy


----------



## dr1nky

Any rumours surrounding allocations/payouts should, of course, be taken with a pinch of salt....

....but I just heard €10k this year, €10k next year and then finito!

Dr1nKy


----------



## ph3n0m

dr1nky said:


> Any rumours surrounding allocations/payouts should, of course, be taken with a pinch of salt....
> 
> ....but I just heard €10k this year, €10k next year and then finito!
> 
> Dr1nKy




I presume thats the next payment just before Christmas?


----------



## dr1nky

ph3n0m said:


> I presume thats the next payment just before Christmas?


 
Yeah, I'd say so...

We'll just have to wait and see what happens I suppose!


----------



## Eircomlifer

I heard from my good and always reliable source (who in fact has never been wrong) that we are getting 10k just before Christmas (for people with full allocations) and that there will be 3 payouts next year - but heard nothing about ESOP being wound up next year, but I will consult my source on that.


----------



## paul o b

assuming you are right about the 10 k , the fact that you have info about it , and yet if i ring esop they say their usual that they know nothing about it , shows they are always lying . when will they accept we have a right to know its our money . its bloody anoying when you read it in the papers first


----------



## Eircomlifer

paul o b said:


> assuming you are right about the 10 k , the fact that you have info about it , and yet if i ring esop they say their usual that they know nothing about it , shows they are always lying . when will they accept we have a right to know its our money . its bloody anoying when you read it in the papers first


 
I can in fact tell you that my good source is in ESOP and I've been told that its their internal policy is to 'stay silent' and 'say nothing when asked', and believe me, I have asked on many occasions why, but was given a shrug and mumble of "dunno" in response, but my source only slips it quietly to me and few other selected peeps only when they def hear of an upcoming allocation... and from the horses mouth, "letters will be posted late November", but my personal advice would be don't go book that late winter holiday until you've the letter in your hand.

PS: And yes, when they tell you on the phone that they don't know anything, THEY ARE LYING!


----------



## paul o b

taking everything you say on board , i think it is a bad situation the fact that this is  OUR  money and they wont tell us . as i said before it is our money that is keeping them in a job . nobody else would stand for it . they had the chance to make a triple payment before things got bad and they did not do so . now it would take years to see our investment reach the same sort of value it had[ say 2 years ] ago


----------



## paul o b

anyone hear anything more about this 10k that has been spoken about ?


----------



## ph3n0m

paul o b said:


> anyone hear anything more about this 10k that has been spoken about ?




well if its like any other allocation , there wont be anything confirmed until atleast late October/early November


----------



## KPI

I heard from a usually unreliable source that there definitely might be a payout , this year - next year or maybe the one after . . . . he was 100% right in the past so fingers crossed


----------



## Scouser

KPI said:


> I heard from a usually unreliable source that there *definitely might* be a payout , this year - next year or maybe the one after . . . . he was 100% right in the past so fingers crossed


 
At approximately 7pm sharp.


----------



## dr1nky

xabi said:


> At approximately 7pm sharp.


 

....so that's approxim-efinitely then?


----------



## KPI

Good to know yous all enjoy sarcasm . . . . . . .  Wer's the next whine about share's coming from . . . . .especially from the X employees?


----------



## dr1nky

KPI said:


> Good to know yous all enjoy sarcasm . . . . . . .?


 
Who doesn't?!



KPI said:


> Wer's the next whine about share's coming from . . . . .?


 
The current rumours sound good enough to keep my mouth closed for the moment!



KPI said:


> especially from the X employees?


 
I <3 Eircom and miss it terribly - any jobs going?


----------



## vincentj

How long are you with eircom KPI


----------



## paul o b

anyone know whats happening ? every week in the papers they say the sale is to be concluded early next week , but they have been saying this for weeks now , and still no word . last i heard was that rex comb is holding things up because of some bonus payment he claims he is entitled to , but until we know whats happening esop wont make any statements about any further payments to us


----------



## macbri

From what was reported here in Australia,Reg Comb action has been dismissed out of course with no admission of liability on either side.

Eircom Holdings share price has risen to just below proposed takeover offer from STT so still think deal is on.

Don't think that this has major bearings on Esop delaying payments-simple fact is most of the money has already been paid out,only change to that if Eircom can get some market value in the future and Vodafone shares rise materially higher from current levels.


----------



## paul o b

its hard to te optimistoc about any 10k payment around nov that some posters on here have heard . i dont even know if there is that much left in the kitty


----------



## luckylou

They have for sure the 5k that they held back from us in June....


----------



## paul o b

it appears that comregs demands for eircom to lower the price it charges olo,s by 90% is having a major bearing on the proposed sale of the company , and as a direct result the sale might now fall through


----------



## ph3n0m

Update from Esop website:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In our           communication of 19th June, the eircom ESOP Trustee advised that it           had agreed to a request from Singapore Technologies Telemedia           Communications Limited (‘STTC’) to support their bid to acquire           Eircom Holdings Limited (‘ERC’) on an exclusive basis for a period           of time.

[/FONT]           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The           ESOP board is pleased to report that ERC and STTC have now reached           agreement on the terms of an Offer ( the ‘STTC Offer’) to acquire           the entire issued capital of ERC, by means of a Scheme of Arrangement           ( ‘the Scheme’). STTC have established a bid company called           Emerald Communications (Cayman) SPC to make the offer.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The           Directors of ERC are unanimously recommending that their shareholders           vote in favour of the Scheme in the absence of a superior proposal and           subject to an Independent Expert opinion that the transaction is in           the best interests of shareholders.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The           ESOP board, in conjunction with its advisers, has engaged in           discussions with the STTC and ERC in relation to how the STTC Offer           will proceed and on terms that will govern the shareholder           relationship between STTC and ESOT into the future.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The           board is currently preparing ESOP Extra 21, which will contain details           of the STTC Offer and the ESOP Proposal and this will be sent in due           course to beneficiaries after ERC have issued the Scheme Booklet to           their shareholders (see below).[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As the           STTC Offer is being made by way of a Scheme of Arrangement, the           timetable for completion is subject to Australian regulatory and legal           requirements. ERC have indicated that a Scheme Booklet containing full           details of the Offer and the return of ERC’s Surplus Cash pursuant           to a return of capital, including an Independent Expert’s report is           expected to be sent to ERC shareholders in November 2009. ERC           Shareholders will be asked to vote on the Scheme at a shareholders’           meeting expected to be held in Sydney in December 2009. Actual dates           will be announced with the dispatch of the Scheme Booklet.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In           order for the STTC Offer to be successful it is a requirement that the           ESOP beneficiaries approve of the arrangements in a ballot. Details of           the ESOP ballot will be contained in ESOP EXTRA 21.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is           envisaged, subject to all the relevant approvals being obtained, that           the STTC Offer will complete early in 2010.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]On           behalf of the ESOP board, I look forward to having the opportunity to           welcome STT as a long term partner that is well placed particularly in           the light of its industry experience to make a valuable contribution           as the company moves forward.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The           ESOP will not be making any further comment at this time.[/FONT]


----------



## penpusher

So, how does this translate with regard to a possible payout in December this year? Any thoughts anyone?


----------



## vincentj

Is this takeover good news or bad news for us, and whats our chances of a payout before christmas


----------



## IrlJidel

Noticed this here

"The deal also includes a clause that *could* involve the Eircom Share Ownership Trust (ESOT), made up of thousands of current and former shareholders in the firm, increasing its stake in ECC to 50pc"


----------



## hopalong

i think now is the time to demand commitments in writting from esop for our payments,in the event of this not happening ,we should vote against the sale.any thoughts.


----------



## doughnut

While negotations are ongoing, we do not tend to get any share money. This happened before.


----------



## doughnut

When negotations are ongoing, we do not tend to get any share money.This happened before.


----------



## penpusher

You're not the only one there twinnie . What about the money held 'in trust'? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that once shares have been redeemed, they are redeemed in the name of the esop member, are no longer notional and therefore must be distributed to the beneficiary. Are they (the board) availing of some loophole which enables them to withhold this money? Or are they just robbing us blind? Any legal brains out there who can shed some light?


----------



## hopalong

doughnut said:


> When negotations are ongoing, we do not tend to get any share money.This happened before.


forget about negotations,if we vote against the eircom take over,there will be no negotations.there is also a clause allowing esop to buy up to 50% of the new company.


----------



## paul o b

i rang esop today and was told that there are absolutely no plans to buy into the company , i for one dont believe them but time will tell . i have said all along that i really believe that the reason they are dragging the whole thing out is to keep themselves in a job . i have seen nothing to change that view


----------



## doughnut

Their must be someone out there we can complain to. Gov.agency maybe?


----------



## vincentj

All we can do is sit tight and see what happens. The clowns in charge at ESOP are a law onto themselves, Their statement THE ESOP WILL BE MAKING NO FURTHER COMMENT AT THIS TIME sums them up in other words go away and dont ask us any more questions about YOUR money. They are a disgrace and as paul ob says its all designed to keep themselves in their cushy little jobs.


----------



## luckylou

I'm looking forward to seeing the new esop extra.
If they propose to build their stake upto 50% in eircom, I will vote NO, If it means us loosing out on share money. 50% of WHAT? It's a joke.


----------



## hopalong

thats a no from me too,no way we should get into 50% of company


----------



## roscop

i will definitely vote no too. they should be paying out the money to us not putting money back into the company!


----------



## kbie

Does 50% mean 50% of the DEBT also? Definately a no from me too.


----------



## paul o b

i have just emailed esop asking them to confirm or deny the reports of them seeking to increase the stake to 50% i await their reply


----------



## paul o b

just got word back from them to say all the clarification i require will be contained in esop extra 21


----------



## penpusher

paul o b said:


> just got word back from them to say all the clarification i require will be contained in esop extra 21


 
I think this is the stock reply. To be honest, I marvel at their ability to release a statement which rambles on and on and still says nothing. The ministry of non-information!

When asked, over the phone, what would happen if the membership voted against the sale, a representative of esop said that it would then remain with B&B, statement of the bloody obvious, as usual. 

It was also implied that our pensions would be in danger if we didn't vote in the positive. So, they are now using thinly veiled threats as well as withholding information to further confound the membership. 

It was pointed out to a very snotty young female representative of the esop, during a phone conversation, that a large proportion of the membership (who are mainly now ex-eircom people) are extremely disgruntled. She insisted "we get nothing but positive feedback from the membership here". Could this be true?

They are so defensive about their position as 'guardians' of the esop that I think these people have forgotten exactly who they are there to represent. 

It will be interesting indeed to see what is contained in the next esop extra and whether it will clarify anything at all or just be another glossy magazine which says absolutely nothing, but takes several chapters to do so. I wouldn't hold my breath.


----------



## roscop

Is this not the time to get a petetion together? When we potentailly have some power....
I firmly believe that they know when they will make more payments to us and surely that is all we want to know. We should be threatening to say no to the STT takeover unless ESOP board start giving us some more concrete information on what is happening.


----------



## doughnut

it is now law( couple of months ago) for companies to be more transparent to it's shareholders.


----------



## luckylou

Anyone know when the esop extra 21 is due???


----------



## Montreal

Have a look at this. It appears to me that a deal has been agreed already between the ESOT and STT which basically invests OUR money into eircom for the next 5 years. Now you see why they don't want to tell US their plans...

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0915/presswatch.html


----------



## Montreal

Here's what they say in the article mentioned above...sounds like a sweet deal for someone but I'll bet it won't be us. Does anyone else feel like we're being royally screwed??

"The Esot and STT have signed a "co-operation agreement" that will involve the trust rolling over its 35% stake in Eircom into a new entity, a Cayman Islands-based vehicle called Emerald Communications (ECC)."
***


----------



## paul o b

we are being conned again . this is just a case of them closing down and opening up under another name , thats what it amounts to , and why , i believe for the very reasons i have always said ,  TO KEEP THEMSELVES  IN  A JOB . they are always looking at ways to prolong the life of esop . this is not for our benifit this is for their benifit . if you remember at the inseption of esop they told us there would be regular meetings to keep us up to speed with whats happening , we have not had a meeting with them in years . another thing that annoys me is the c w u , every time things are going well they cant get the info out there quick enough , and try to portray that they were instrumental in bringing about the situation , but when things are bad they distance themselfs from it as if to say , nothing to do with us


----------



## paul o b

i personally have had enough of their bul**** and their ridicilous statement every time you ask them about a payout . you get the same answer time and time again , we dont know " you will know before us , the trustee dont tell us untill a day or two beforehand , if it is the case [as they say ] ,that they dont know  how come there are some people getting info before the rest of us and they are esop employees who tell their mates on the side and mostly the info turns out to be correct . when will these people realise THIS IS OUR MONEY  and we have an absolute right to know if we are getting a payout for christmas or not . are they seriously expecting us to believe they dont know well in advance of it ?


----------



## bilic04

are we defo not gettin anything in Nov. This is a joke the year people need this money the most we are not gettin it..


----------



## paul o b

its more OUR FAULT then theirs because we keep letting them go without DEMANDING to know whats going on . THIS IS OUR MONEY we have a right to know


----------



## vincentj

Everybody should ring them everyday bombard them with calls and E-MAILS starting from tomorrow, 20-10-09 and demand to know what is happening. And all post the replies we are getting here starting from tomorrow night. They are after all the ESOP HELP LINE and its about time they started answering our questions. They have already held onto most of our summer payout, and if they dont pay us anything this christmas it shows they are just laughing at us.


----------



## paul o b

they just keep saying anything you want to know will be contained in esop 21 , but no sign of it yet .they wont give a straight answer if we are getting a payout or not . i wish i had the money to take a legal challenge to the way they are treating us . we should not be in this position . again i will say it  THIS IS OUR MONEY . they work for us not the other way around , we have an absolute right to know . our christmas prosperity lies in the hands of a few *******s who will decide if santa is coming or not .


----------



## Grover

HI there
The esop 21 will not contain information on a payout - only info on the proposed takeover and the ballot. Information on a payout will be seperate and they will not give any information on that at the moment. If they want us to vote yes they really should offer a payout first


----------



## luckylou

Grover said:


> HI there
> The esop 21 will not contain information on a payout - only info on the proposed takeover and the ballot. Information on a payout will be seperate and they will not give any information on that at the moment. If they want us to vote yes they really should offer a payout first



Where did you get this information from Grover? 
Have you been told when we're going to receive the esop 21 and when we'll get notification about a payout?

What really, really bugs me is when some people have information about what's going on behind closed doors and then there's US MUGGS have to go begging for info.

Grrrrrr..


----------



## vincentj

I have been ringing this morning and have got the answering machine every time. I have also e.mailed them and am awiting a reply ( though i feel i will be left waiting) This is now in our hands they should be told by every single one of us we will vote NO to any ballot to invest OUR money into a new tale over bid, unless we are getting a christmas payout. Its time we started fighting back with these *******s


----------



## Eircomlifer

As far as most of the current Eircom staff are concerned - Ex-Eircom ppl shouldn't be entitled to a single penny of ESOP and it should be ripped out from underneath them and they shouldn't be allowed have an voting rights!! And anyway, what voting? There won't be ANY voting!! The STT deal is due to be finialised in the first week of December.

The lot of ye are like a pack of old women the way ye's go on!! So calm the **** down - ESOP letters will posted during November about money coming December! 

I refer you all to my posting on 27-08-2009 - http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=922358&postcount=306


----------



## luckylou

Eircomlifer said:


> As far as most of the current Eircom staff are concerned - Ex-Eircom ppl shouldn't be entitled to a single penny of ESOP and it should be ripped out from underneath them and they shouldn't be allowed have an voting rights!! And anyway, what voting? There won't be ANY voting!! The STT deal is due to be finialised in the first week of December.
> 
> The lot of ye are like a pack of old women the way ye's go on!! So calm the **** down - ESOP letters will posted during November about money coming December!
> 
> I refer you all to my posting on 27-08-2009 - http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=922358&postcount=306


 
Maybe I'm reading your post wrong - but you come across as a very angry person Eircomlifer. I don't give two hoots what present employees in Eircom think - That comment has no relevence to the current topic being discussed.
I do beleive we will have to VOTE - wheather the final outcome of the vote is taken into conscideration - well that's another story.

I'd love to know where you got your information from about a payout in December, because nobody else has mentioned it and you seem to have know about it since August.

MB50 are you out there?.....you're a great one for the info!....tell all.


----------



## paul o b

you see , this is the point i made in an earlier post . eircomlifer has posted as far back as august that his inside info is that we will get a patout of 10 k for christmas . now lets just assume for a moment that he is right , does this not PROVE  beyond a shadow of a doubt that they do indeed know , well in advance of a payout , yet when you ring they tell you the same old story we know nothing . if eircomlifer is wrong i will eat humble pie , but if he is right it certainly proves we are constantly being lied to and strung along


----------



## Grover

luckylou said:


> Where did you get this information from Grover?
> Have you been told when we're going to receive the esop 21 and when we'll get notification about a payout?
> 
> What really, really bugs me is when some people have information about what's going on behind closed doors and then there's US MUGGS have to go begging for info.
> 
> Grrrrrr..


 

I rang the esop line today. They could not give a date but they expect the information to go out in November


----------



## Grover

In responce to Eircomlifer : Sorry but why should ex eircom ppl not be involved in deciding how our shares should be used? We earned these shares while we worked for the company and just because we no longer work there does not mean that we should not have a say in how our shares are used. Most of the esop is at this stage ex employees - we are shareholders so we have a say. The esop should not be concerned with eircom employees but in making the most dividends for its members. Employee issues should be dealt with by Union not esop


----------



## paul o b

they told me some time ago that the esop 21 would be sent out 3 week from when i rang them that was about a month ago . now were told november this is just another delaying tactic


----------



## luckylou

Grover said:


> I rang the esop line today. They could not give a date but they expect the information to go out in November


And did they tell you that we would receive 10k like you stated in August??


----------



## dr1nky

vincentj said:


> I have been ringing this morning and have got the answering machine every time.


 
Did you call their new number? 

From ESOP website:

*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ESOP Unit is moving to a new address[/FONT]* 
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9 October 2009 
[/FONT]*​ *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ESOP Unit is moving to a new address[/FONT]
*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Please note eircom ESOP Offices is relocating from[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]53, Merrion Square, Dublin 2 on Monday 12 October 2009 to:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Leitrim House, Upper Stephens Street, Dublin 8.*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Contact Numbers:*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Freephone number 1 800 27 27 00 or 01 - 701 3932*[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Fax Number : 01 - 701 3958*[/FONT]


dr1nky


----------



## dr1nky

Eircomlifer said:


> As far as most of the current Eircom staff are concerned - Ex-Eircom ppl shouldn't be entitled to a single penny of ESOP and it should be ripped out from underneath them and they shouldn't be allowed have an voting rights!! And anyway, what voting? There won't be ANY voting!! The STT deal is due to be finialised in the first week of December.
> 
> The lot of ye are like a pack of old women the way ye's go on!! So calm the **** down - ESOP letters will posted during November about money coming December!
> 
> I refer you all to my posting on 27-08-2009 - http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=922358&postcount=306


 
You must be part of the Union 'Eircomlifer' (I mean, this is highly likely if you are in fact an Eircom 'lifer') and I'm guessing that's where your getting your 'reliable' information from.

I have heard that the ESOP Board DO want Ex-Eircom employees out of the picture but that's not gonna happen while we still have plenty of shares left.  Maybe we'll be offered a payout to make us go away?! This way the ESOP Board wont have to worry about us 'pack of old women' anymore and they'll be happy and we certainly will be too!

This might tie into what you've heard from your 'reliable' source back in August Eircomlifer about 10k in December and then 3 payouts in 2010   - if that happens, or we have to vote to make this happen, doesn't this sound like the seeds of a potential 'payout'?

dr1nky


----------



## dr1nky

€6k this side of Christmas   ...or did I just dream that? Who knows?!


----------



## twinnie

What money,sure you cant depend on rumours.......eh....kids....Santa may or may not be coming this Christmas we ll have to wait till the clowns inESOP ARE FEELING GENEROUS THIS YEAR and remember June gone by? Need i say more


----------



## vincentj

Drinky i know they have moved but their contact number is still the same 1800 272700. Eircomlifer would you tell us how long you have been in eircom for. I have done 30 years in eircom from P+T to TELECOM EIREANN to EIRCOM. Me and the people i worked with have helped build this company into what it is today, and we are entitled to our say and our shares. I to have been an eircom lifer and we are not going away. How dare you insult former eircom staff like this. We should be all fighting this together regardless if you are eircom staff or ex eircom staff. Without us there would be no ESOP lets stick together and get what we are entitled to.


----------



## dr1nky

vincentj said:


> Drinky i know they have moved but their contact number is still the same 1800 272700. .


 
Ahhh, ok   ....should have checked that out before I posted that - cheers Vincent!


----------



## vincentj

No prob drinky i am still having no luck getting through to the unhelpfull helpline. Will keep trying though, and of course got no responce to my e-mail.


----------



## ex-union

hi lads just signed up to this site,i was told by a credit union official we will be getting a payout first week in december,did not say how much!


----------



## dr1nky

I heard €6k for full allocation holders...

We'll just have to wait and see what happens  - fingers crossed we get something anyway!


----------



## Grover

luckylou said:


> And did they tell you that we would receive 10k like you stated in August??


 I never quoted figures in August - that was eircomlifer


----------



## luckylou

Grover said:


> I never quoted figures in August - that was eircomlifer


Sorry Grover - that post was aimed at eircomlifer.


----------



## dr1nky

luckylou said:


> that post was aimed at eircomlifer.


 
Ready          .....aim         .....FIRE!


----------



## luckylou

dr1nky said:


> Ready          .....aim         .....FIRE!


Ahahha.....funny, althought your right...I don't like bull****.


----------



## Nermal

vincentj said:


> Me and the people i worked with have helped build this company into what it is today



Couldn't help but laugh when I read this.


----------



## MB05

Very little rumours around at the moment.  

There was a few months ago.  There was one that the new potential owner wants to own the company outright and has 'done a deal' to buy us out with the ESOP/Revenue etc.  I personally didnt like the sound of it as in the current climate our 35% is not worth much and we would be lucky to see the money talked about in the past.  The one big payout is about all we'd get (<€36k).

But I haven't heard anything since, so it probably was just that - rumours.


----------



## kbie

Its a good rumour so lets hope it is true


----------



## vincentj

Really Nermal and what did you find so funny about it.


----------



## ex-union

Nermal, I started in the p&t in 1972 in conditions you would not even have nightmares about,you probably wern't even born then.Bet you have a nice little number in a cosy office in HQ.


----------



## twinnie

Personally speaking i would take all and cut my losses instead of being drip fed a few thousand here and there and not even knowing if we are getting anything,which is the situation we are at now.Get it done and over with now once and for all.


----------



## ph3n0m

@twinnie - now that would be the prefered payment and right before Chrimbo too.

But failing that - I just want transparency from ESOP - I just want clarification whats happening, and decent notification of, if any, pay outs are happening in December


----------



## dr1nky

twinnie said:


> get it done and over with now once and for all.


 
show me the money!!!


----------



## ex-union

I was told yesterday by a nat exec union person the payout is 4,800 first week in dec.Also the union side want the esop wound up next year. there is a split between esop and union.STT don't need any more investment from esop.


----------



## doughnut

ex-union said:


> I was told yesterday by a nat exec union person the payout is 4,800 first week in dec.Also the union side want the esop wound up next year. there is a split between esop and union.STT don't need any more investment from esop.


this is prob. true what company wants a union shareholder around its neck


----------



## paul o b

lads with respect , i think you need to seperate this union , esop thing . they are two separate bodies and dont have any say in the affairs of each other [ at least thats what they always told me ] oh wait thats ONLY  when things are bad that the union claims not to be involved in the affairs of esop . like when there is no possibility of a payout , or when esop wont give out info , or when esop want to do something stupid like buy more into eircom [at our expense ] .  is  it not amazing that one person on the forum claims that he was told by a nec member that we will get a payout of 4800 in dec , yet esop tell you [ in the imortal words of manuel from faulty towers ] WE KNOW NOTHING .  we are still being lied to , because one of them has to be right , my money is on the union ex being right because the esop have traditionally never given out info except to say we dont know , when infact they do


----------



## vincentj

A couple of years ago i rang the ESOP unhelpfull helpline to ask if there was a christmas payout. They told me no decision had been made, the next day on their website they announced a christmas payout. Thats what you are up against its pointless even ringing them.


----------



## penpusher

It's all very frustrating, isn't it? Like the death throes of a bad marriage! I wonder do we constitute a self help group now? EEDA....Eircom Esop Desperados Anonymous!


----------



## Grover

Can someone please tell me why the esop cannot advise how many shares an indiviual is entitled to. Documentation sent out says how much is held in the esop but have no way of knowing how much of that is yours. Originally we could see how many shares we held so why can they not provide that anymore??


----------



## paul o b

dis you get your esop 21 extra?


----------



## ex-union

hello no post untill november, I spoke with two eircom people today clerical and engineering  both said they were told 10,000 is the payout.


----------



## miley

I spoke to the esop people today and got the usual response "we dont know anything everybody is busy putting together the esop extra and have had no time to discuss any Christmas payout"


----------



## penpusher

Grover said:


> Can someone please tell me why the esop cannot advise how many shares an indiviual is entitled to. Documentation sent out says how much is held in the esop but have no way of knowing how much of that is yours. Originally we could see how many shares we held so why can they not provide that anymore??


 
Information is power, no wonder esop are keeping schtum. Sharing the knowledge would mean weakening their power base. Of course their reluctance to share information also makes me fearful that they may have something to hide.


----------



## dr1nky

penpusher said:


> Of course their reluctance to share information also makes me fearful that they may have something to hide.


 
...well they've certainly been doing a good job of hiding our money!


----------



## penpusher

lol @ dr1nky ................sad but true


----------



## neonitrix

have read this all with interest the only thing i can add is currently having gotten a regular cheque twice a year i have almost come to depend on it. and with wage cuts etc this year there wont be much of a crimbo if there isnt a distribution.

my situation was i worked for eircom bounced from eircom / eircell / vodafone for 7 years in a badly paid job which the only thing going for it was the shares.  i am only entitled to 4/10ths of a full distribution each time they are distributed it dosnt amount to much ie approx 1100 euros but its enough to make a difference in the current times.

i wish esop would take the views of its members both current eircom employees and those who have since left the company and at least give us valid info rather than no info.


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## Alfaphil

Also heard the rumour about 10,700. Seemingly revenue are a bit ****ed off that the arrangement had been broken. Having said that i was speaking to a founder of esop who was probably the largest beneficiary and the disdain with which he spoke about the members expectations of a payout this year was alarming. i mentioned the fact the vodafone shares are worth nearly 50m. His reply was this was needed to run the ESOP. More like line the pockets again.


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## penpusher

Alfaphil said:


> Also heard the rumour about 10,700. Seemingly revenue are a bit ****ed off that the arrangement had been broken. Having said that i was speaking to a founder of esop who was probably the largest beneficiary and the disdain with which he spoke about the members expectations of a payout this year was alarming. i mentioned the fact the vodafone shares are worth nearly 50m. His reply was this was needed to run the ESOP. More like line the pockets again.


 
I think the disdain in which the esop members are held by the board is self-evident in their absolute stone-wall attitude to requests for information, never mind the actual money! 

I find it personally extremely alarming that these people are more interested, or rather feel it is their right, to prolong the esop as a self-perpetuating entity which exists solely to support those who work directly for the esop. Next time you speak to your 'friend' you can tell him/her that from me. 

This is, I suppose, nothing we didn't already know but it's good to know that what we suspected is actually true and not the product of group paranoia based on being treated like the great unwashed.


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## paul o b

so it appears that people are finally in agreement with my assertion that the esop is only being prolonged in order to facillitate esop staff employment


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## Alfaphil

Paul,

I think if you look back prior to the supposed summer allocation when we were looking for people to actually protest you will find you are not the first that thinks this.


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## ex-union

The esop served notice of Redemption of the November 08 allocation to the company on the 13th October08 this information was leaked within a few days through the so called grapevine.No leaks this time,even the press normally have an inkling to whats going on.


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## paul o b

past history has been that a payout was not made till the final conclusion of the sale of eircom . that has been the case in all previous sales of the company . in this case the sale to stt will not officially completed till early next year , so on that basis i would suggest that no payment will be forthcoming till then , if at all


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## vincentj

No paul i dont think that has anything to do with it this time. Dont forget they need our approval through a ballot to buy in this time. It would be in their own interest to give us some sort of payout this christmas otherwise they know what the result of the ballot would be a big NO.I would say we will receive esop 21 in november along with news of a payout to secure a yes vote. Thats my thoughts on it anyway.


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## ex-union

The sale of eircom will be finalised on december 6th,no vote is neccessary.the only reason a vote will be taken is if the esop want to invest money in to a bigger share of the new company.As I see it STT dont need the esop/union to buy more shares.As I said in a previous message there is a split between esop and cwu.
CWU want esop wound up SOONER RATHER THAN LATER.


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## Alfaphil

If it is the case the CWU want it wound up, it is clear the feeling on the ground has finally got to the union and this can only be a good thing.


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## vincentj

Yes ex union exatly right, we know eircom is going to be sold anyway it is the esop we are talking about. If they want to have a bigger stake in the new company they have to ballot us on it, they need a yes vote from us before they can go ahead and buy a bigger stake with our money. This is where we hold the upper hand


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## paul o b

this should NOT be a case of who has the upper hand . these people from esop are supposed to be acting on our behalf and have OUR interest at heart . this has not been the case up to now , they have acted , and continue to act to further their OWN  interest , this is evident by the fact they have an obvious desire to increase the stake in eircom , which is completely against the wishes of the vast majority of members , and ultimitely the aim is to prolong the life of esop in order to keep themselves in employment . i have to say i feel we are partly to blame for allow this to happen


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## ex-union

Got a flash from heuston hq the payout is a definite 4,800 first week december.


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## penpusher

A flasher has never been more welcome


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## ph3n0m

Be sure of it, give me the occular proof - will this be announced anytime soon either on the ESOP website or the next publication?


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## paul o b

even if it is true about the 4 800 , it is a long way from the 10 ,000 that was reported in an earlier post


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## vincentj

Just rang esop they have told me no decision has been made yet. In early november this is crazy. People seem to be getting information from everywhere yet esop stick to the same standard answers.


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## ph3n0m

see thats the problem - all these whispers and rumours are just that until ESOP "decide" to tell all....which, and especially true in the run up to Christmas, is very stupid.

Over the past few years have come to depend on that payout - and it would be nice to know the earlier the better so people can plan around if they are getting a payout or not

did they happen to even say when a decision would be made?


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## paul o b

i suppose if they said no decision has been made , they are aware that people are expecting a payout . its better then an uniquivocal no . i think that sounds a bit more hopeful , but still we have a right to know at the earliest oppertunity and this has not been forthcoming


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## ex-union

I posted a message on the 21-09-09 that I was told by a credit union worker we were getting a payout in Dec, I spoke with that same person yesterday and he reassured me a payment is being made no doubt about that.As for the people who answer the calls in ESOP they are under instructions to answer all qwerys with the same answer.I can tell you now a decision has beeen reached they are just playing mind games with members,It gives them asense of power.


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## Eircomlifer

I was told by another contact today that a large amount of eircom employees have been unnecessarily contacting the Credit Union over the past few weeks requesting small loans for Christmas, because they were hearing rumours that there wasn't going to be any ESOP pay out this Christmas. The Credit Union were getting so many calls for loans this Christmas that they rang ESOP and the ESOP *did *confirm to the Credit Union that there *WILL BE* a payout in December.


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## paul o b

eircomlifer i dont doubt your sincerity for a moment , but i would be very surprised if the esop people , who continue to tell us they know nothing , could possibility reveal to the credit union that we  ARE  getting a payout . they would be leaving themselves wide open on the basis that they have continuesly denied any knowledge of a payout to the MEMBERS , yet they are prepared to confirm a different story to NON  members , ie the credit union . they would leave themselves open to all sorts of critisism , not to mention the fact that they would loose all creditability with the membership . i dont think it is their style to make such revelations known to anyone . this is not the way they operate , also i have just rang the esop now and the usual answer was forthcoming , WE KNOW NOTHING  . the woman i spoke to was at pains to point out that esop 21 [ when it arrives ] also will NOT  inform us of any payout , that we will receive it along with ballot papers , and it will deal specificly with the issues contained therein ie the proposed sale of eircom to stt ans that we will be asked to vote accordingly


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## dr1nky

ex-union said:


> I posted a message on the 21-09-09


 
....how much did you hear the payment would be Postie Mc Poster?


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## riddick1977

Union staff are telling everyone that there is definitely no payment this year. There are so many rumours going around that I will believe nothing until the letter and cheque are in my hand.


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## ph3n0m

ah you got to love the rumour mill - yes, no, maybe, whats a payout - all the fun answers we can enjoy - while other faceless people pull our strings and makes us wait - personally I just want one last payment in december, in full of what I am owed and then I can wash my hands of this mess that is called ESOP


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## penpusher

ph3n0m said:


> ah you got to love the rumour mill - yes, no, maybe, whats a payout - all the fun answers we can enjoy - while other faceless people pull our strings and makes us wait - personally I just want one last payment in december, in full of what I am owed and then I can wash my hands of this mess that is called ESOP


 

Right on! ph


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## paul o b

it will be a surprise to me if we get a payout this year . look at it this way , we ALWAYS  would know by now if we are to get it or not , union people saying definitly no payout , esop denying any knowledge of a payout , and no optimosim among staff at all , in addition to all this the deal will not be finalised with stt for the sale of the company till earlier next year . traditionally when the company was sold in the past , and a payout was subject to that sale , it was never paid out till this process was completed , so why would it be any different this time ?


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## doughnut

I think your right paul 0.b. esop will be asking us to vote + on the sale to stt, just vote no until we start to get our money. Whats the union possition on this?


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## paul o b

you ask whats the union position on this ? well it has been my experience , and observation of the c w u , that they tend to dis assocate from esop in times of uncertainty , claiming that they are independent of esop and have no influnce whatsoever insofar as predicting if a payout will be forthcoming or not . [remember this is only in uncertain times though ] all other times they claim to be the driving force behind esop ,


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## penpusher

Surely we are entitled to receive money for the shares withheld but already redeemed in our names in June?


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## paul o b

ahh just like me you didnt read the small print . sure we were led to believe at the inception of esop that we could expect a figure in the reagion of 80 k per man , now i know we have exceeded that amount , but the way it was admisistered was no good to anyone . 6 k here 6 k there you could do nothing constructive with those amounts , and when it was challenged they pointed to the small print about revenue . we also got the impression that the board of esop was to be elected anually , but when this lot got in they became a law onto themselves , with no elections at all . they are there for the life of the esop , and the way they are going esop will be a very old man before he dies thus keeping themselves in their cushy little numbers


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## vincentj

This whole thing is a joke. When you ring the esop unhelpfull helpline it is always the same old thing I KNOW NOTHING. What exactly is their role, what do they do from one end of the year to the other. As far as i can see they are just trained liars serving no purpose at all. Just think nobody in the esop unit knows anything and we are supposed to believe this. They are all keeping themselves in their cosy little jobs with nothing to do. While we get the mushroom treatment keep them in the dark and feed them ****. They need us to vote yes to give them the go-ahead to buy into stt unless we get a christmas payout the vote should be a resounding NO. Dont give them anymore power to keep treating us like this.


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## luckylou

I too will vote NO if we don't get a Christmas payout. Screw them!!


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## mountain

[FONT=&quot]Voting no will not be good for anyone, think about it logically, if STT don't take us over, who is going to, don’t look at the government, they have no money, and the way financial matters are in eircom at the moment, well, it may just turn even more ugly.  NO IS NOT ON OPTION.[/FONT]


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## dr1nky

mountain said:


> [FONT=&quot]NO IS NOT ON OPTION.[/FONT]


 
It is an option, and therefore I'm sure that they'll give us something in December to keep us sweet!


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## ph3n0m

is there any word on the next publication being issued?


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## paul o b

drinky i honestly dont think that whether we yes , or , is in any way going to influnce their decision as to whether we get a payout or not .


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## dr1nky

paul o b said:


> drinky i honestly dont think that whether we yes , or , is in any way going to influnce their decision as to whether we get a payout or not .


 

Yeah Paul, I think you're right  .....they seem to make it up as they go along in my opinion!


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## paul o b

it may well be the case that our shares will be worth  NOTHING  fairly soon . reports in weekend , and todays papers ,say that this company  called imagine are to undercut eircoms prices by 50% . this being the case i would suggest that eircom will have no customers left , and will effectively be rendered usless , and this esop crowd want us to give them a mandate to increase the stake in a company that cant fight back because of regulority constraints . this is laughable and should be resisted by every member who holds shares . i am more annoyed then i can express on this forum that these gangsters in esop wont tell us anything


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## doughnut

the only way we can get whats left, is to vote no. They are going to gamble with what ever is left, in a company that seems to be going down and down, cleaned out by the fat cats.,


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## dr1nky

doughnut said:


> They are going to gamble with what ever is left, in a company that seems to be going down and down, cleaned out by the fat cats.,


 
....the only thing that I hate more than Fat Cats is Clowns, and there seems to be plenty of them on the ESOP Board!

I also hate Fat Clowns  - wrong!! So very, very wrong...


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## paul o b

whatever this esop extra 21 contains when it finally arrives at our doors , will have been printed in the context of the situation as it stood before the anouncment by imagine communications that they are going to undercut eircom by 50 % . so in light of this new devolopment i would urge all members to vote no as far as increasing the stake in the company is concerned , although the board of esop are so arrogant they will probably go ahead and increase it anyway . they are just paying lip service to us


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## Alfaphil

Members of the ESOP who are still in the company should contact their union rep and voice their displeasure at the pocket filling events of the board.


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## vincentj

Mountain voting no is certainly an option and maybe the only one we have. We are not voting to stop stt taking over the company thats going to happen anyway, we are voting NO to stop these idiots who control esop pouring our money into it. As  they have proved they could not care less about us this is all about them lining their own pockets and keeping their cushy little jobs. Look at the shobby way we were treated in june that was a disgrace, now here we are on november 10 and they still have not told us if we are getting a payout this christmas or not. As for esop 21 where is it ?. As i said if we do not get a christmas payout vote no to these idiots and then hopefully this whole farce will have to be wound up and we will get what we are entitled to.


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## paul o b

members  firstly i would like to let you know that i phoned the credit union this morning with a view to finding out if they knew if we were to get a payment or not . the person i spoke to said he heard yesterday that we were , but on further enqiries from a colleague , he confirmed to me that it was now his understanding that we will  NOT  get a payment . apart from the fact that  NOBODY  should have the right to know before the members [ credit union included ] the obvious contempt in which we are held by the board of esop , i propose that we stage a protest outside the esops offices until they agree to meet with us and stop treating us like children and tell us what we want to know . i will wait two days from now to gage your reaction to this proposal , and if your reaction is favourable i will then inform the board of esop by email of our intention to highlight this absolute disgrace by way of protest outside their offices . in the event that people are agreeable to take such action , further contact can be arrranged between the interested parties , and the esop board will be duly notified of our intentions on a date to be decided


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## twinnie

the esop *MUST be *_*wound down now* otherwise we are going to lose out,ive said it before and once again i say it,im sick and tired of being drip fed info and paltry handouts ie. June distribution *ENOUGH IS ENOUGH*_


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## paul o b

i should have mentioned in my previous post that if you support my proposal for protest action please post the word support in your next post and from that i will have some idea if i should advise the board accordingly of the action we propose to take


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## penpusher

Paul,

I believe this would be an unwise course of action in the current climate. However I understand where you're coming from on this. I would be more interested in getting some legal advice on our position as members of the esop and whether it might be possible to mount some sort of investigation of how the esop has been managed up to this point and exactly where money is being spent. A glimpse at some expense sheets might be a revelation in itself.

Have we actually requested to meet with the board? This might be a better first step before taking to the streets.


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## luckylou

Do you think the esop board know how upset the members are?

Do the esop office staff who answer the phones, pass on our queries and frustration to their management?

In the short term, we could all send e-mails or make phone calls to Jerome Barrett ect, because talking to those fools in the esop office maybe a waste of time!

Has anyone out there got direct e-mail address or phone numbers that we could use??


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## paul o b

i have just spoken to the esop unit , and on the basis of what i was told you can draw your own conclusions . this vote we are being asked to take is  NOT  about increasing our stake in eircom it is about stt offer for the company , or if we accept it or not . it was explained in detail to me that in the opinion of esop it is imperitive that we return a yes vote in order to keep the company afloat for pension purposes more then any other reason . you are NOT  being asked to vote on increasing the stake at all according to them , but  they refuse to rule out this happening at some time in the future . i pointed out that the only thing members are interested in at the moment was if we were getting a payout by christmas or not , and surprise , suprise they could not say . i kept pressing for an answer but none was forthcoming . draw your own conclusions from that


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## luckylou

Surprise, Surprise!


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## roscop

i'm voting no


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## Grover

I am sorry but as an esop member I am not interested in pensions for current eircom employees - though I hope that there pensions become secure - I am interested in receiving payments. The esop is not there for eircom employees that is the reason that they have a union. The esop is there for those who received distributions over the years whether they work for the company now or not



paul o b said:


> i have just spoken to the esop unit , and on the basis of what i was told you can draw your own conclusions . this vote we are being asked to take is NOT about increasing our stake in eircom it is about stt offer for the company , or if we accept it or not . it was explained in detail to me that in the opinion of esop it is imperitive that we return a yes vote in order to keep the company afloat for pension purposes more then any other reason . you are NOT being asked to vote on increasing the stake at all according to them , but they refuse to rule out this happening at some time in the future . i pointed out that the only thing members are interested in at the moment was if we were getting a payout by christmas or not , and surprise , suprise they could not say . i kept pressing for an answer but none was forthcoming . draw your own conclusions from that


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## paul o b

hay grover , just reporting what i was told


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## vincentj

SUPPORT Yes i think a protest outside the esop office is a good course of action. It will highlight our frustration and show these clowns that we are at the end of our tether and we are taking no more. Of course the unhelpfull helpline do not pass anything we say to the plonkers running esop, they are not going to put their own do nothing jobs at risk. As for jerome barrett do you honestly think he would meet us, you must be joking, he and the rest of those plonkers who run esop will be doing what they always do when questions need answering HIDE.


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## paul o b

the lady i spoke today told me that i could send in whatever emails , or correspondance i liked , she was quite clear that they would be forwarded to jorome barret , if requested , but assured me that nether jorome barret , or anyone else would , or could give me an answer in relation to a payout for christmas . if you think about it , my understanding was that we were to have received this esop extra 21 weeks ago , the fact that we have not would suggest that they are stalling for time to get as near to christmas as possible in which case  they probably feel that we wont be able to mount much of a challenge because of the time factor involved


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## vincentj

You hit the nail on the head there paul thats exatly what they are doing. They are leaving it as late as possible to get esop extra 21 out so you dont have much time to think about it and just vote. Its all mind games, they know by now if they are going to give a christmas payout or not and those people who answer the phones also know. As i said before i rang a couple of years ago enquiring about a payout and i was told no decision had been made and yet the next day they announced a payout. When you ring that number they are almost sneering at you. Unless we are told we are getting a christmas payout vote NO to whatever they ask you to do in esop extra 21.


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## paul o b

members i have just sent off a message to jerome barett . in it i feel i have expressed the collective views of the majority of contributors to this forum . i expressed my personal feelings to him that certain board members want to prolong the life of esop in order to keep themselves in a job . i pointed out that he should read the contrabutions of this forum to gage the level of anger that exsist among members in relation to the way this on , off , christmas payout is being handled . i also said i felt the esop extra 21 was being delayed on purpose so as to leave no time for challenge , or proposed protest action . i also said we are sick to death of all this cloak and dagger stuff . i hope i have not offended anyone by sending this message


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## dr1nky

paul o b said:


> i pointed out that he should read the contrabutions of this forum to gage the level of anger that exsist among members in relation to the way this on , off , christmas payout is being handled .


 
Jerome - if you're reading this post, can I have my money please?

Thanks Heaps,

dr1nky


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## roscop

that's goes for me to Jerome!


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## doughnut

jerome be a bit more transparent to the members it's law now.


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## vincentj

If you are reading this jerome esop held back a lot money from us in the summer, holidays had to be cancelled etc. At least make it a good christmas for us.


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## Grover

HI Jerome - show me the money


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## brasstax

From what I hear we will get a payout this finacial year simply to encourage us to vote yes. However I understand that the company is keen that ESOP make a financial contribution to help the debt situation. This along with the volutary paycuts , RBU and VL exits will show the bankers that we are serious about keeping the company solvent


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## paul o b

brasstax , it is entirely possible that we could get a payment this christmas , but i think what is annoying people is that they MUST  know by now , and the fact that they keep stringing us along with this silly way they have of going on by saying  WE KNOW NOTHING  . what are we children ?


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## miley

Hi Jerome, try and be honest for a change and tell us what the story is. Its not too many weeks to christmas and just incase you did not know some of us have young people at third level and need the money that is ours anyway and i am sure I speak for most members when I say forget about increasing our steak on a chance and give us what is ours NOW.


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## Big Spender

Will people relax -  do they really want to destroy value in the ESOP by forcing distributions at the bottom of the market?

Surely people haven't become that reliant on the ESOP money that they now need it to pay for Christmas and Summer holidays? This is the type of irresponsible financial management that got the government into the state its it - relying on once off windfalls to meet ongoing expenses.

Let the markets recover then distribute the cash - we'll all the better off in the end - otherwise ESOP will be gone in 2 years and and what will you all do for the Summer holidays in 2012?


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## paul o b

big spender , i would suggest that maybe your user name is approapriote to your current financial status , but please dont assume that everyone else is in the same position . there are people depending on a christmas payout , which has been the traditional practice over the last few years . furthermore there IS  grounds to question whether or not the management of the esop  will be prudent going forward in light of the recent disclosure from imagine communications  that they intend to undercut by up to 50% and effectivaly render eircom surplas to requirements . the esop board have an obvious desire to increase the stake to 50% in eircom i would contend that their motive is highly questionable to say the least , and certainly against the wishes of the vast majority of the membership both inside , and outside eircom


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## Grover

Big Spender said:


> Will people relax - do they really want to destroy value in the ESOP by forcing distributions at the bottom of the market?
> 
> Surely people haven't become that reliant on the ESOP money that they now need it to pay for Christmas and Summer holidays? This is the type of irresponsible financial management that got the government into the state its it - relying on once off windfalls to meet ongoing expenses.
> 
> Let the markets recover then distribute the cash - we'll all the better off in the end - otherwise ESOP will be gone in 2 years and and what will you all do for the Summer holidays in 2012?


 
Speaking for myself I did rely on the esop money this summer becuase I was under impression that we would receive the same as every other year same as most people on this forum. I am not dependant on it though and had I been advised earlier that we would not be receiving the funds that would have been fine. Nobody expects the esop to last forever and when it is gone we will all manage fine. The issue is that we are not being told one way or the other soon enough. If we are not going to receive an allocation this christmas just tell us already so that we can reevaluate how much to spend on pressies etc. Personally speaking until I know how much ( if anything) I am going to receive I cannot plan anything and that is really annoying


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## vincentj

Just ignore posts like that of big spender, he or she is obviously just trying to wind people up. I would guess big spender most likely works in the esop unit, hence the name big spender.


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## Alfaphil

Support. ESOP will be wound up in 2013 anyway as it was only scheduled to run for 10 years. But the answers from the helpline are always the same. People are really frustrated this year because of the economic climate and the refusal of these jokers to let us know about allocations but this is the way ESOP has always behaved. Jerome i hope you do read this and pass the level of anger on to the board. Only a few of us post but the majority read this site.l


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## Big Spender

vincentj said:


> Just ignore posts like that of big spender, he or she is obviously just trying to wind people up. I would guess big spender most likely works in the esop unit, hence the name big spender.


 

This is the type of carry on that typified my years in eircom - if the opinion doesn't fit then desparage it.

Everybody here says they aren't dependant on the money yet everyones Christmas plans revolve around whether or not they get the cheque - you guys go figure.


Pesonally I've spent the last few cheques as I got them but on once off items like doing up the house so while its nice to get it it won't effect what I plan to spend on Christmas - pity is most others here seem to be hooked on it.


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## penpusher

Big Spender........yes I am dependent on a payout this Christmas. I lost my job earlier this year. I am lucky enough to have secured another one but at a much reduced take home pay. (8.5k less per annum). Of course I have done my best to cut my cloth etc. there are lots of things I don't have money for anymore and it would be a relief to know that Christmas at least would be taken care of. 

There is merit in what you say but at the moment I don't have the luxury of waiting for markets to change and I imagine I am not the only one. There were shares redeemed in our names in June and we received only a portion of the proceeds, at the very least we should receive the balance due to us on that redemption. I hope it stays fine for you Big Spender because when luck changes the real world is not a nice place to be.


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## Tail Gunner

Hey all i have been reading all these posts now.. Hope a payment is due but sounds like esop do what they want when they want and always will! 

The Secret Stone Cutters Society


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## paul o b

big spender , you said in your post that everyone on here claims they are not depending on the payout , i beg to differ i have not read ONE  post claiming they are not depending on it . in fact quite the contrary people have been at pains to point out how they ARE depending on it , and have expressed that in a sequence of post for the attention of jerome barett . go back and read from yesterdays submissions from the forum posters


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## MANTO

What i cant understand is why so many have let themselves bacome dependant on it, from reading previous posts, i get the impression nobody knows when the payouts will be (i stand to be corrected).

So how can you be dependant on a payment you dont know the date of?


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## Big Spender

paul o b said:


> big spender , you said in your post that everyone on here claims they are not depending on the payout , i beg to differ i have not read ONE post claiming they are not depending on it . in fact quite the contrary people have been at pains to point out how they ARE depending on it , and have expressed that in a sequence of post for the attention of jerome barett . go back and read from yesterdays submissions from the forum posters


 
Maybe if you actually READ my posts you'd see i was saying the opposite - ie people HAVE become dependant on this. My point is this is not a good place to be - remember the story of the government who came to rely on taxes from house sales.....


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## paul o b

manto the reason people are depending on it is because the esop have traditionally made a payout to members in dec . now human nature being what it is people have come to expect that there would be no interuption to this already established practice .


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## penpusher

Big Spender said:


> Maybe if you actually READ my posts you'd see i was saying the opposite - ie people HAVE become dependant on this. My point is this is not a good place to be - remember the story of the government who came to rely on taxes from house sales.....


 
I fail to see how my position equates in any way with the current crash! I have been put in a position of dependence BECAUSE of the crash! What is your point in any case? You are coming across as being extremely smug, almost gloating over the fact that people actually NEED this money.

The simple fact is that we have an entitlement and we are constantly being denied information about when, or if we will receive this entitlement. The reason why we need it is actually irrelevant and certainly no excuse for anyone to preach about their prudent lifestyle.


----------



## brasstax

Hey Big Spender. Glad to hear you are not depending on small change and I suppose you agreed to the 6-10% voluntary pay cut too. Todays grapevine indicates a payout around the 22nd of Novermber and a VL scheme by Xmas. Anyone know how much of our money the ESOP is holding. Is it 35K per person.


----------



## luckylou

brasstax said:


> Hey Big Spender. Glad to hear you are not depending on small change and I suppose you agreed to the 6-10% voluntary pay cut too. Todays grapevine indicates a payout around the 22nd of Novermber and a VL scheme by Xmas. Anyone know how much of our money the ESOP is holding. Is it 35K per person.



The 22nd is a Sunday!!! What is a VL scheme?

Oh Yeah and to the Grinch Jerome..........I would also request that you inform ALL members if we are going to receive OUR money this side of Christmas. Otherwise I may have to make my own Christmas gifts! I was thinking of making dolls.............Voodoo dolls and calling them all Jerome.


----------



## dave28

paul o b said:


> in light of the recent disclosure from imagine communications  that they intend to undercut by up to 50% and effectivaly render eircom surplas to requirements .


Paul, I'm not sure but I would have thought that Imagine, like Smart Telecom, would be relying on "piggybacking" eircom's network to provide their special offers ? Unless they are providing a totally wireless network which will not match eircom speeds via copper / fibre.
If eircom were a wholesale network provider to a miriad of service providers they still get the line rental (albeit at reduced amounts) but leaves them in a strong position, far from surplus to requirements


----------



## brasstax

Lucky Lou, What I was told was week beginning the 22/11. VL scheme is aVoluntary Leaving scheme to attract people with long service to quit before Brian Lenihan taxes the gratuity


----------



## dr1nky

luckylou said:


> I was thinking of making dolls.............Voodoo dolls and calling them all Jerome.


 
If you need some pins for those dolls gimme a shout!


----------



## luckylou

Notice of Ballot of ESOP participants - Esop page dated 13th November.
 NO SIGN OF OUR MONEY Grrrrr.

Yes dr1nky I will take you up on the offer of pins, lots of them now.


----------



## paddyc

paul o b said:


> big spender , you said in your post that everyone on here claims they are not depending on the payout , i beg to differ i have not read ONE post claiming they are not depending on it . in fact quite the contrary people have been at pains to point out how they ARE depending on it , and have expressed that in a sequence of post for the attention of jerome barett . go back and read from yesterdays submissions from the forum posters


 

paul o b - I for one am not depending on it.... that doesn't mean I don't want it as I very much do want it, so you don't speak for everyone on this forum. I don't work for the esop and I've already taken a 10% hit on my pay and don't earn much but I do also understand people have gotten used to a Christmas alloc and I hope we get one. I personally have always been in the habit of not spending what I don't have, and hopefully long may I be able to continue like that. If I can't afford something I don't get it. I know people with kids going to college etc may not be in that position, but bottom line here is all your moaing and *****ing on here isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. 

I never take it for granted how much I'm getting until its posted on the site and I ring them to see how much of that I get (not full alloc) There are regulatory issues that prevent them from telling people how much we are getting in advance and that is not going to change. Hopefully the extra 21, when it's posted will make things clearer


----------



## Eircomlifer

New update for ESOP Participants posted on Livenet this morning.


*Notice of Ballot of ESOP Participants*​


NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the Directors of the eircom ESOP Trustee have determined that a ballot of the Participants of the eircom ESOP will take place on the Acquisition by Emerald Communication (Cayman) SPC of eircom Holdings Limited and the ESOP Proposal.

A Ballot Paper will be posted to each Participant at his or her home address, or the address nominated for ESOP correspondence, on or about 16th November 2009. Any Participant who does not receive a Ballot Paper should contact the ESOP helpline on 1800 27 27 00.

All Ballot Papers must be returned to the Returning Officer at the address below by 1.00 pm on Tuesday, 1st December 2009 in the prepaid envelope enclosed with the Ballot Paper.


_eircom_ ESOP Trustee Limited
​​1 Heuston South Quarter
St. John’s Road
Dublin 8​


----------



## dr1nky

Eircomlifer said:


> prepaid envelope enclosed with the Ballot Paper.


 
What a waste of ESOP funds ....I mean, if there was better communication surely it would be better to have an online ballot to save **ssing money up against the wall! As for the glossy 'ESOP Extra' publications - shocking waste altogether!


----------



## paul o b

paddyc . show me please where i claimed to speak for everyone on this forum ? i expressed my  own views and that of the vast MAJORITY  of contributors on the forum to the esop people on foot of a phone call i made to the esop unit . i did not claim to speak for everyone on the forum then , or indeed now . i dont have such mandete


----------



## Grover

HI there, whether they are dependant or not I think the main issue fore everyone is the lack of information. A notification should be sent out to let people know if there will be an allocation as soon as possible.


----------



## Alfaphil

I take it that anyone contributing to this site is voting no and will be trying to influence others to do the same. Not that it's a bad takeover just purely as a protest vote on lack of information coming out of the hallowed halls of ESOP


----------



## roscop

I am voting no and I know a lot of people who are too


----------



## ex-union

Anyone read the circular from CWU today,scary stuff, if you want to hold on to your pension and jobs the pressure is on to vote yes.


----------



## SparkRite

ex-union said:


> Anyone read the circular from CWU today,scary stuff, if you want to hold on to your pension and jobs the pressure is on to vote yes.


 
Look, its the first time in many years that Eircom is being taken over by a  telco.

A no vote is a no brainer.
If anybody wants any sort of return then a yes vote is imperative.

And just for the record I do not agree with the Esop's behavior at all, I just see beyond a knee jerk vote of no.


----------



## brasstax

Unless the Ballot Paper comes with a cheque and a promise of future payments I will be voting NO.


----------



## brasstax

STT is NOT a Telco. It is the investment arm of the Singapore Government.


----------



## vincentj

I rang the esop unit yesterday, the lady i spoke to informed me when we get esop 21 next week it will deal soley with the ballot at hand and nothing else. I asked her about a christmas payout and she told me nothing had been decided yet, that all their time and effort was going into this ballot and nothing else. When i pressed her she said given the time frame with the ballot a christmas payout looks unlikely (her words). This whole thing is a ploy the ballot was delayed to the very last second for a reason, they are putting a gun to our heads, they will probably fill us with scary stories about your pension and future payouts. Dont be sucked in its a typical union ploy, its mind games again. VOTE NO its the only way we can stop these wreckless idiots pouring our cash into a sinking ship and keeping themselves in their cushy little jobs. Ignore all the scaremongering, to stop jerome barrett and his band of merry men we all must vote NO. We can take it as almost certain now there will be no christmas payout.


----------



## brasstax

Well said Vincentj. For the same reason I will Vote NO. I am sure, like the Lisbon Treaty we will vote again after Christmas and lets hope by then the ESOP heads will be less arrogant


----------



## penpusher

All I can say with certainty is that all this is completely doing my head in! One person says there is a payment coming, another says there isn't. Hopes raised and dashed in the space of two posts. I sometimes wish I had never found this forum. :-(


----------



## brasstax

Penpusher: Have Faith


----------



## ph3n0m

I do have faith - faith that the sun will rise and set - but not that we will get an allocation


----------



## Leaver

I agree with penpusher, I don't think I can handle this 'will we, won't we' scenario for much longer. I really want to believe eircomlifer. Someone please put us out of our misery!


----------



## Eircomlifer

Folks, I can categorically inform you - there *will be* a pay out this Christmas - I heard it directly from my source in ESOP. They first just want to deal with the ballot and then they'll deal with the payout.
And by the way, a no vote would seriously put in doubt any future payments - I was told that. If you want the honey to keep flowing till 2014, then everyone will need to vote yes.


----------



## ph3n0m

Eircomlifer said:


> Folks, I can categorically inform you - there *will be* a pay out this Christmas - I heard it directly from my source in ESOP. They first just want to deal with the ballot and then they'll deal with the payout.
> And by the way, a no vote would seriously put in doubt any future payments - I was told that. If you want the honey to keep flowing till 2014, then everyone will need to vote yes.




Were you told when notifications would be issued about this payout?


----------



## paul o b

you see eircomlifer , this is exactly what i am talking about . you say you know for definete that there will be a payout , that your contact within esop informed you , in fact you told us this some time ago also , but the part that annoys me is , if that info is available to you , through your contact , [ and i respect their right to anonymoity] then surely this proves the point that they DO  in fact know if were getting a payout or not yet they continue to say they know nothing when you ring


----------



## penpusher

Thank you eircomlifer for putting a little ray of hope into what was shaping up to be a very gloomy Monday 

While I understand everyone's impulse to return a NO vote I really don't think this would achieve anything in the long  run except to shoot ourselves in the foot.


----------



## ph3n0m

Given that they want to deal with the ballot first - does that mean no notifications until the ballots are returned?


----------



## neonitrix

Eircomlifer said:


> Folks, I can categorically inform you - there *will be* a pay out this Christmas - I heard it directly from my source in ESOP. They first just want to deal with the ballot and then they'll deal with the payout.
> And by the way, a no vote would seriously put in doubt any future payments - I was told that. If you want the honey to keep flowing till 2014, then everyone will need to vote yes.


 

to be perfectly honest i will still be voting no - due to the non sensical idea that the esop increasing their share in what seems to be a failing company would be madness.

imagine eircom on the stock market in its present state i couldnt see poeple rushing into putting their hard earned money into it.


neonitrix


----------



## ex-union

sorry lifer,but i find it hard to believe an esop member confided in you,people who were telling me months ago about a payout (nat exec and credit union )are all of a sudden pulling back from what they said and are pushing for a yes vote.up Until last friday the official word from the union was they knew nothing.All of a sudden a circular appears about jobs/pensions and we are being asked to vote yes.Surely if they wanted the members to vote yes they would tell us the truth.


----------



## paul o b

when will pepole realise that the union , NOR  the credit union ,  could NOR  should have first hand knowledge of whether or not we get a payout .THEY ARE NOT esop members  so it is none of their business


----------



## brasstax

Ex- Union: I have not seen the circular you mention. When was it issued. It does not appear on the CWU Site.


----------



## ex-union

A circular from union hq was issued on friday afternoon urging present and former staff to support the stt bid and vote yes.It plainly states that jobs could be at risk and the pension fund is also at risk.In reply to  paul o b most of union hq are members of the esop and the credit union have members on their credit control committee who are members of esop.I have seen a letter from the credit union sent to a member,telling him they were aware of an esop payment before christmas.I have no reason to mislead anybody i am purely reporting what i have heard and seen.


----------



## riddick1977

Hi


----------



## riddick1977

Sorry. Hi all. Got news from a union rep today that there is definitely no payment until at least March. I'll only believe notice of any payment until I receive the notification by letter. Sorry. I know you are all only giving the information you are being told but this has my head done in.....


----------



## goingforgold

I think we can safely say with just over 5 weeks to xmas that there will not be a payout. If there was it would be linked to this ballot...


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## ph3n0m

and yet again we have a yes, no, maybe situation - this is just f**king sickening - even if we werent getting an allocation, I think it would be high time that ESOP actually announced it on the site


----------



## paul o b

ex union i think you are missing the point i was making, of course there are members of the union that are members of esop , and of course there are members of the credit union that are members of esop also , but these are individuals just like you and i . the respective bodies of the c w u , and the credit union , [as two orginizations ] are there for the primary purposes of the protection of workers rights, and financial affairs of staff respectively . they have no involvement in the internal affairs of the esop , which is a company independent of both of these bodies . for this reason it is unrealistic to expect ether one of them to have first hand knowledge of the situation regarding any payout . they may speculate as to what they think is the likely outcome , but they have no difinitive knowledge of such outcome . if they have , and it proves that they are aware of the situation before the members , then i suggest that there is something radicely wrong with the system . as far as i am concerned nether body the cwu , nor the cu , are representitive of the esop board


----------



## ex-union

No one is saying cwu/cu are reps of the esop board,but these people are in contact with each other with regard to what's going on in the company/union and the finances of the members.


----------



## paul o b

yes i understand that , but there is no way that the esop as a [ presumably ] responsable board could realease sensitive information to any orginisation BEFORE  the membership have been informed


----------



## ex-union

just recieved  esop 21,it is 48 pages any other issue contained 13,the ballot paper directs you to page 24.


----------



## shweeney

last years Xmas payout - the shares were appropriated on Nov 17 and the cheques arrived within a week.  

The ballot closes on Dec 1st, still time enough for a payout before Xmas, or at least the announcement of one in the new year, but who knows... (I try not to rely on these payouts, they are by their nature unreliable).  

I can't see any compelling reason to vote against this takeover, the company is currently in limbo and in a bad way financially.  The long term value of our share of the company is best served by having it the hands of an actual telco rather than a bunch of disinterested and bankrupt venture capitalists.


----------



## exeircomhead

shweeney said:


> last years Xmas payout - the shares were appropriated on Nov 17 and the cheques arrived within a week.
> 
> The ballot closes on Dec 1st, still time enough for a payout before Xmas, or at least the announcement of one in the new year, but who knows... (I try not to rely on these payouts, they are by their nature unreliable).
> 
> I can't see any compelling reason to vote against this takeover, the company is currently in limbo and in a bad way financially.  The long term value of our share of the company is best served by having it the hands of an actual telco rather than a bunch of disinterested and bankrupt venture capitalists.


----------



## penpusher

There shouldn't be any need for allocation or redemption for the shares that were redeemed in June and withheld. Surely it's just a case of issuing a cheque for our money which was held back in the summer?


----------



## Montreal

I see that Con Scanlon is General manager and Company Secretary of the ESOP Trustee....How is that? I thought he works for An Post now having walked away with a fortune from the CWU.  There was always only one beneficiery when he was involved.


----------



## Montreal

Right on, Penpusher, where is the money that was redeemed in our names in June. I understood that once the 'nominal' shares were redeemed for cash then it became 'our' money and as such how can they hold it back at all??


----------



## LongGone

I tried to ring the helpline just now, and it rang out. Looking back through the original contract there seemed to be a provision that allowed us to direct ESOP to sell any shares held in our name provided we take an income tax hit. Anyone know if that still remains? If so, it might be the best option, since the running costs of ESOP seem to be through the roof.


----------



## paul o b

your right there longone , i spoke to richard bruton some time ago , and explained to him that we are only allowed to receive an amount of 12, 700 euro per year in order to remain tax compliant . he explained to me that while that is correct it is the ESOP BOARD  who will not allow us to exceed that amount , that the revenue would have no problem with it as long as tax was paid on the amount in excess of  12,700 . surely any  individual wishing to avail of such an arrangement should have been given the choice , even if it does not make economic sense , instead of having these decisions made for them by the same people who will eventually invest YOUR  money to increase the stake in eircom anainst your wishes


----------



## Leaver

I'm as wise now having read ESOP extra as I was before I started. All I know is they want us to vote yes. I hope that glossy brouchure wasn't paid for out of our money


----------



## riddick1977

Question. If we vote no, are we really better off with a company who is practically bankrupt in Australia than with the new owners???


----------



## ex-union

I give up,forget about any payout,if we get one it will be a surprise,what we are now talking about is job security and pension fund,I no longer work there and my concious would favour a yes vote for existing employees.There is no doubt in my mind money is in the kitty.We gave these esop people a free hand years ago and we never questioned them until now, maybe we created the monster we have lost control of.


----------



## brasstax

Firstly, STT is not a Telco but an investment arm of Singapore Government. I would urge a NO vote until such time that he ESOP outlines clearly it's plans for our moneyj


----------



## doughnut

hmm con scanlon, one of those overpaid union chiefs if i remember, who sent his henchmen out to make sure we voted for the company to be sold,.(orig.)standing over us saying it was the only way to go.gangsters!


----------



## dr1nky

paul o b said:


> your right there longone


 

....I'm right about what?


----------



## irishpancake

Questions arising:

Why can the STT shareholding not exceed 50%?

Why are we told, STT Offer is not conditional upon re-org of eircoms balance sheet, and then told that we may have to inject up to €10.3m within 18 months?

Notwithstanding the above and other questions which need clarification, would we be better supporting the Proposal, which may give us a better chance of recovering value in the medium/long term, or sticking with the wholly discredited ERC structure as is?

Of course the answer to the above will depend totally on whether you are a former or present eircom employee. 

There is definitely a difference in perspective for both types of ESOP members, but I seriously doubt that even former employees would not wish to give their former company a fighting chance for the future, with a proven Telecoms investor.


----------



## LongGone

irishpancake said:


> There is definitely a difference in perspective for both types of ESOP members, but I seriously doubt that even former employees would not wish to give their former company a fighting chance for the future, with a proven Telecoms investor.



I have sympathy, and I haven't quite made up my mind how to vote yet. However, I expect ESOP to act in the best interest of the beneficiaries of the trust, independent of whether this is in the best interests of non-ESOP members (although it is not clear to me that this is actually what is happening). I know this seems harsh, and I'm not suggesting that I don't care about non-members, it is simply my understanding that ESOP are legally obliged to act in the best interest of members. Now, I could be wrong, so don't go mad if I have misunderstood the situation.


----------



## paul o b

but who is to say what the best interest of the members is ?


----------



## shweeney

brasstax said:


> Firstly, STT is not a Telco but an investment arm of Singapore Government. I would urge a NO vote until such time that he ESOP outlines clearly it's plans for our moneyj



You're right, they're not a telco as such, rather a conglomerate largely focussed on telecommunications - they do share ownership with SingTel (the incumbent Singapore telco), via Temasek - the investment arm you mention, and they have partnerships with a number of other telcos and telecommunications companies.  

They're clearly a better option than a bunch of venture capitalists who want out - if the deal were to fall through Eircom could be royally f***ed.  Now I don't work for the 'com anymore, but I don't see the point in jeopardising the deal, and the long term value of the Esop, in order to (possibly) bring one payment forwards by a couple of months.

I agree though that the Esop management are overly secretive, this is probably a legacy of when Eircom was publicly quoted and they obviously didn't want potential share dealings revealed in advance.


----------



## LongGone

Presumably it is similar to the obligation of a board of directors to shareholders. Though again, I may be completely misunderstanding things.


----------



## luckylou

And who said we'd get a payment in a couple of months.....that's the problem....ESOP won't tell us anything. 
I voted NO and I do hope the end result is NO. Vote NO.

Why won't they come clean abouy the December payment? 
Why can't they tell us when we'll receive our next payment?


[qoute
*
They're clearly a better option than a bunch of venture capitalists who want out - if the deal were to fall through Eircom could be royally f***ed.  Now I don't work for the 'com anymore, but I don't see the point in jeopardising the deal, and the long term value of the Esop, in order to (possibly) bring one payment forwards by a couple of months.*


----------



## brasstax

shweeney, You are correct in your analysis and yes STTare probably our best chance for the future and would probably get full support except for the lack of information about future schedule (as stated by Luckylou and others). Perhaps they are waiting until after the Budget before announcing plans making payments


----------



## penpusher

irishpancake said:


> Questions arising:
> 
> Why can the STT shareholding not exceed 50%?
> 
> Why are we told, STT Offer is not conditional upon re-org of eircoms balance sheet, and then told that we may have to inject up to €10.3m within 18 months?
> 
> Yes pancake, these are questions I would like answered too! Does anyone know the answer? Is there any point in asking the esop? Or are they still wearing their deaf, dumb and blind sign?


----------



## irishpancake

Vincentj,
_ Moderator note: VincentJ's post was seriously defamatory and abusive and has been removed. As he had been warned previously for this - he has been banned_

"Least time possible"? 

Seriously, if you can't read and decide on a document within a two-week period you must have a problem, or perhaps you are blinded by your prejudices.

In fact ESOP 21 is a very informative document, allowing for the obvious constraints which will pertain when there are on-going negotiations and commercial sensitivities.

I really feel that your constant references to a Christmas pay-out is misguided populism and short-term thinking at best, given the obvious current economic circumstances, in case you hadn't noticed.

I am not one who blindly supports the ESOP board, and they could certainly improve their communication policies. I too would have been critical of quite a lot of what has happened over the past number of years, hopefully in a constructive fashion, but that is another debate.

However, to heap unwarranted abuse upon them for acting in the interests of all the participants, having taken all the appropriate legal and commercial advice, is just not right.

I hope those participants who log on here will take a step back and not fall for this populist and abusive short-termism.

There is a lot at stake here, and people need to take the sensible option.

I say vote YES. I have.


----------



## penpusher

My instinct was to vote yes, that is until I read Esop Extra 21. It would appear to me that STT do not require or need investment in Eircom from the Esop. I have no objection to STT having more than a 50% stake in the company. 

In fact I would propose that it is those who are resistant to change within the company who are urging us to vote yes. It looks to me like the board are more concerned with securing their own position within the whole scheme of things than anything else and in my very humble opinion this publication is a testament to that.

It is time to wind up the Esop, it has served its purpose. I am, of course, open to correction and counter argument.


----------



## ex-union

circular issued from union hq this morning it seems to me after reading this,as soon as the ballot is in we will get our divi.also irish indo writes an article about the staff geavy train in eir com and money will continue to be doled out.happy days


----------



## ph3n0m

ex-union said:


> circular issued from union hq this morning it seems to me after reading this,as soon as the ballot is in we will get our divi.also irish indo writes an article about the staff geavy train in eir com and money will continue to be doled out.happy days




but again nothing confirmed from esop about such a payment after the ballot - so for me, its still waaaaay up in the air


----------



## LongGone

ex-union said:


> circular issued from union hq this morning it seems to me after reading this,as soon as the ballot is in we will get our divi.also irish indo writes an article about the staff geavy train in eir com and money will continue to be doled out.happy days



Do you have a link for the article?


----------



## IrlJidel

There's an Irish Times article [broken link removed]


----------



## irishpancake

The [broken link removed] is interesting, in that it gives an objective overview of what has been delivered by ESOT since 1999, in cash terms:



> It details how the 12,500 members have received more than €770 million in tax-free cash since Eircom’s privatisation in 1999.



And present portfolio: 



> The Esot still owns 36.1 million Vodafone shares, which are currently worth €54 million.
> 
> It also owns 98.9 million preferences share in Eircom redeemable at €1 each.
> 
> Then there’s the ordinary shares in Eircom, which comprises its 35 per cent stake.
> 
> The document says it is “difficult to determine” the value of this stake. “Their true value may only be known when there is an opportunity to sell them.”



I feel that it is vitally important that ESOP participants, whether they are current _eircom_ employees or not, should bear these facts in mind when deciding how they vote in the ballot.

Also, bear in mind that the ESOP is highly regarded by other in the state and semi-state sectors, not to mention those in the private sector, as we are.



> With a 600% return on its investment and a 900m booty, it's no wonder the Eircom ESOP has become a role model for other semi-state workers



from Sunday Tribune in Jan 2005





> *ESOT at the cabinet table*
> 
> Well they must be. Why does these guys get such unbelievably favourable treatment from the government?




and lots more if you Google _eircom ESOP_


----------



## ph3n0m

taken from enn.ie today



> The paper also reports that the *Eircom* employee group Esot, which owns 35 percent of the telco, could have to pay up to EUR10.3 million to buy additional shares in the business as a condition of the sale of the company to *Singapore Technologies Telemedia* (STT). An acquisition document was sent this week to the Esot's 12,500 members. Under the terms of STT's proposed AUD225 million takeover of Eircom, the Singapore telco does not plan to own more than 50 percent of Eircom. The Esot will rollover its 35 percent stake. In the event that all existing Eircom shareholders take the cash offer, convertible loan notes for about 15 percent of the company will be issued. A third-party investor will be sought for the loan notes but if none is found by mid-2011, the Esot will be obliged to buy them.


----------



## IrlJidel

> The Esot still owns 36.1 million Vodafone shares, which are currently worth €54 million.
> It also owns 98.9 million preferences share in Eircom redeemable at €1 each.
> Then there’s the ordinary shares in Eircom, which comprises its 35 per cent stake.
> The document says it is “difficult to determine” the value of this stake.


So looks like ESOT have about 153M in reasonably liquid assets.  Based on previous payouts that only equates to about 15k for each esop member with a full allocation.

As for what is left, who knows how much  the 35% stake in eircom is worth.


----------



## irishpancake

IrlJidel said:


> So looks like ESOT have about 153M in reasonably liquid assets.  Based on previous payouts that only equates to about 15k for each esop member with a full allocation.
> 
> As for what is left, who knows how much  the 35% stake in eircom is worth.



Yes, with reservations.

The preference shares are the only reliable "known" in the portfolio. 

Voda share prices are fluctuating, and are subject to currency variations, so valuing these is somewhat problematic, and always subject to the usual warnings about share prices, can go down as well as up. 

See chart below.

[broken link removed]

The value of the 35% stake will only become clear upon a future realization event, e.g. an IPO before March 2014.

Up to that date, it will be up to the new owners, STTC/ESOT and others to ensure there is sufficient investment in the company to make an IPO a success for all.

To characterize the remaining portfolio as "only" equating to €15k per participant is to:

a) totally disregard the €770,000,000 paid out to participants already (€50,000-€60,000 per participant)

b) disregard the Voda shareholding potential value, if handled wisely by ESOT 

c) underestimate the very real possibility of  considerably enhanced share value at a future IPO for our existing 35% shareholding, which could be as much as 50%, depending on company future performance.

I ask participants:



> .....keep your head when all about you
> Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;


----------



## doughnut

as a thought maybe just maybe they are waiting for a result of ballot before they know how much to pay out .


----------



## ph3n0m

doughnut said:


> as a thought maybe just maybe they are waiting for a result of ballot before they know how much to pay out .




well if that was the case - why cant the esop just come out and say that? or actually same something other then nothing


----------



## penpusher

Maybe when there's a full moon and Venus is on an axis with Mars and the heavens align, the grand wizard of the esop will come into our earthly realm..........and let us know what the **** is going on!


----------



## ex-union

Hello everybody, I spoke wuth a NAT EXECUTIVE member yesterday,a meeting was held on wed 18th with the branch secs and esop, they were informed by esop that there will be *NO PAYOUT THIS YEAR *and that was why a memo was issued by union hq.*Definite no payout was emphasised to me.The union were also told a march payout is a probability.Sorry for bad news but for me the saga ends now good luck to all subscribers, still have a good christmas and maybe a prosperous new year.*


----------



## irishpancake

ex-union:

At this stage you are sounding more and more like the fabled "boy who cried wolf".

You have been wrong so many times in the recent past, citing your so-called inside contacts at CWU National Executive level, Credit Union officials, that even if you are correct, nobody would believe you.

Why do you continue to feed the rumour-mill with ill-founded hearsay, gossip and conjecture?


----------



## paul o b

whether ex union is right , or wrong . about what the union said . i keep saying this and nobody seems to accept it . THIS IS NONE OF THE UNIONS BUSINESS . this whole esop thing has nothing to do with ANY  trade union , it is a company set up for the purposes of distributing shares to participents . no union within eircom , trade union , or credit union or any other kind of union has any right to know what is going on in relation to our shares before the members themselves . i object strongly to a situation where  NONE MEMBERS  of esop , TRADE UNION , OR CREDIT UNION  should be advised of what the state of play is before us . i have noticed all down through the years that the union will only associate itself with esop when things are going well , when things are NOT  going so well they tell you they have nothing to do with esop and thats a fact


----------



## brasstax

Quote from Jerome in ESOP Extra May 2006: We believe this is an attractive proposal for all parties involved and are pleased to be joining BCM in making this offer to _eircom_ shareholders. We look forward to increasing our ownership stake in _eircom_ as part of the proposed transaction, and to continuing to play a key role in the future success of the business.    (AND WE BELIEVED)


----------



## dr1nky

I've decided to vote YES. Still not happy with the lack of communication from the ESOP Board but I feel that a YES vote is the best option moving forward....


----------



## LongGone

dr1nky said:


> I've decided to vote YES. Still not happy with the lack of communication from the ESOP Board but I feel that a YES vote is the best option moving forward....



I did the same, and for more or less the same reasons. I really am annoyed about how little information we are getting, but a NO vote won't help anyone. Even if it got the board to take more notice and become more transparent, it seems we would have shot ourselves in the foot in the process.


----------



## slinkykitten

As a former employee with a full allocation, I find it frustrating that unless you still have friends on the "inside" its extremely hard to know whats going on.  When I took the VL a couple of years ago the job market was booming, but like a lot of exers am now looking for a job and its not easy!! Why can't the ESOP take into consideration that a lot of members may be finding themselves under financial pressure for one reason or another, maybe their spouse or partner has lost their job, and we might have needed the payout this year??  48 pages of information in the ESOP extra and the two questions we all need answered were not addressed - how much and when?????


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Would someone volunteer to summarise this thread? 

It's indigestible now.


----------



## paddyc

Brendan said:


> Would someone volunteer to summarise this thread?
> 
> It's indigestible now.


 
There might be a payout in Dec ...there might not ....ESOP aren't saying anything one way or the other, rest is all rumour and people giving out about the above.


----------



## penpusher

You have the makings of another 'sunscreen' song there Paddy


----------



## ph3n0m

penpusher said:


> You have the makings of another 'sunscreen' song there Paddy




heh I think it could be a christmas number 1 - and we'd be gauranteed to get a payout if we released it


----------



## paul o b

did you all get your letter from steve fitzpatrick , where in it he claims that the people advocating support for a no vote are misguided ?


----------



## penpusher

Well....it would appear that a payment is indeed off the cards for Christmas. Personally, I feel physically sick when I think of what's facing me financially. This could have given me a dig out.

Perhaps we could find out where the esop are planning to have their Christmas party and stand outside with our noses pressed up against the glass and just stare at them.


----------



## ph3n0m

penpusher said:


> Perhaps we could find out where the esop are planning to have their Christmas party and stand outside with our noses pressed up against the glass and just stare at them.




I doubt it - maybe they are waiting for the next ESOP publication to tell them where their christmas party is


----------



## dr1nky

penpusher said:


> Perhaps we could find out where the esop are planning to have their Christmas party and stand outside with our noses pressed up against the glass and just stare at them.


 
That wont work ....it'll undoubtedly be tinted glass which will ensure that the average ESOP member is unable to see in! The best plan might be to just walk into wherever it is that the party is being held, sit down beside them and help ourselves to their food and drink - it is our money that'll be paying for it, I'm sure, after all!



ph3n0m said:


> I doubt it - maybe they are waiting for the next ESOP publication to tell them where their christmas party is


 
...ha ha!


----------



## Burman

I am ex eircom for 5 years and more than ever this year I NEED an allocation before Christmas. I 'd be interested to know what percentage of esot members are ex eircom and how many are still employed. I voted yes because I don't think there is an alternative at the moment. I still have a big problem with the lack of info but how do we change that. I am not saying what ESOT are doing is wrong but we need to be more involved. I can't see any logical reason for this silence. Is there anything people can do as a group to force their hand ?


----------



## doughnut

Im going to have to take a loan out with the bank.If  with some  reason the esop pay out this christmas, i will have to pay back early loan repayment charges.Come on esop tell us yes or no.


----------



## Grover

HI there, what is the email address to mail Jerome. I would like a notification to be put up once they make the decision yes or no. At least that way we are put out of misery


----------



## paul o b

i would say there is much chance of us getting a payout before christmas , as there is of me getting an audience with the pope . surely its obvious to you all by now that no such payout will be forthcoming till at least march


----------



## neonitrix

did anyone elso who is ex eircom receive a letter from the cwu yesterday regarding the esop vote?

i got a letter out of the blue yesterday and i havent been a member of eircom or the cwu in about 5 & 1/2 years.

i will post copy of letter tomorrow as i have left it at home


neonitrix


----------



## ph3n0m

neonitrix said:


> did anyone elso who is ex eircom receive a letter from the cwu yesterday regarding the esop vote?
> 
> i got a letter out of the blue yesterday and i havent been a member of eircom or the cwu in about 5 & 1/2 years.
> 
> i will post copy of letter tomorrow as i have left it at home
> 
> 
> neonitrix




what did it say - even a brief summary


----------



## neonitrix

ph3n0m said:


> what did it say - even a brief summary


 

the gist of it was how important it was to vote yes in the ballot and also that a small group of people were trying to run a no vote campaign.

i wonder who they were mabey some of us? 

anyway i will try and scan the letter and upload in morning .

photo of letter dont have scanner handy












the last paragraph is especially interesting.
neonitrix


----------



## neonitrix

my letter to Steve Fitzpatrick General Secretary of the CWU regarding the attached letter:

Hi Steve,

I am just wondering what brought about the cwu making contact with myself regarding the esop circular which was issued in the past week, I have left eircom/vodafore over 5 years ago and haven’t received any correspondence from the cwu in that time until now.

I have however read the letter and if you are now indeed representing past members of the cwu I ask for the union to take a stronger stance against the stone walled view currently being experienced by members of the ESOP. Where it is near impossible to get any answers what so ever regarding possible share allocations or distributions. 

I am in a situation where I still have a claim in the ESOP albeit only 4/10ths share but with having taken so many cuts this year to my private sector job and the same being said for my wife. I was fully expecting an allocation or news of an allocation before Christmas; now that this looks unlikely I am unsure where to turn. At the very least I expected an honest answer to some of my questions which I put to the ESOP.

As I am sure you are aware ESOP is being very creative with the information they are putting out there to their members or lack of information. And telling people they know nothing a day before a glossy brochure is sent to all members doesn’t bode well. I am sure these brochures aren’t printed overnight.
I don’t want to see eircom in jeopardy and fully support the need to keep the company going, but to have the possibility of the ESOP having to invest more into eircom down the line makes me uncomfortable.

I don’t want to see eircom fail but of late the company hasn’t been helping itself and the argument I have seen from some beneficiaries of the esot who are campaigning against the stt transaction is starting to get compelling, considering the lack of info available to esop members of late, and to hear finally from the cwu in the final days of a vote after no contact for so long only confuses me more. 

Yours sincerely 

Neonitrix







neonitrix said:


> the gist of it was how important it was to vote yes in the ballot and also that a small group of people were trying to run a no vote campaign.
> 
> i wonder who they were mabey some of us?
> 
> anyway i will try and scan the letter and upload in morning .
> 
> photo of letter dont have scanner handy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the last paragraph is especially interesting.
> neonitrix


----------



## brasstax

Steve Fitzpatrick and ESOP say STT are a Global player with a good track record. This might be so, I dont know, but it is not apparent as to the strategy and plans they have for growing the Eircom Business. He also says STT have good relationship with the Goverment and the Regulator. What does this mean. Give me some examples. We were conned in 2006 in accepting B na B. This time they are playing the desperation card. STT need to brief us on why we should vote Yes.


----------



## Montreal

PLease see below email I sent to Union just to see if I get a reply........



Hi Ian,
It seems this 'letter of propaganda' was sent out to ex-cwu members so, as  paid up member, I wondered why it wasn't sent to me also. 
It seems the Union has more access to information from ESOP than Esop members have yet I understood the Union and ESOP to be totally seperate entities....seems the 'old boy' network is alive and well in eircom.
I would like you to put me in touch with the Union solicitors as I have several legal questions pertaining to the ESOP board and how it is being run. There is no transparency in the way they do their, or should I say OUR, business.
I am in contact with a substantial group of ex eircom staff and we all have reservations on how the Board are behaving toward us.
I also would ask that somebody would bring up the fact that when one rings the ESOP office for information, our CWU colleagues on the phones are dismissive and rude when asked for details of ESOP business.
As you can guess we are very angry at the way we are being ignored. 
I will expect the courtesy of a reply to this email and the questions raised within.


----------



## paul o b

montreal dont hold your breath waiting for a reply . in relation to the point you raised about esop and unions being seperate , i have stated this many times on this forum . they claim NOT  to be involved in the internal affairs of each other , yet any information that comes out is through the union reps first . i have already objected to NONE esop members such as the cwu , credit union , etc etc being made aware of any situation regarding any proposed payouts or anything else before the membership . i have made those objections known by way of email to the esop board , the credit union , and the c w u , but because , as you so rightly put it the old boy network is alive and well , and in such circumstances i would be surprised if i got a meaningful reply


----------



## neonitrix

neonitrix said:


> my letter to Steve Fitzpatrick General Secretary of the CWU regarding the attached letter:
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> I am just wondering what brought about the cwu making contact with myself regarding the esop circular which was issued in the past week, I have left eircom/vodafore over 5 years ago and haven’t received any correspondence from the cwu in that time until now.
> 
> I have however read the letter and if you are now indeed representing past members of the cwu I ask for the union to take a stronger stance against the stone walled view currently being experienced by members of the ESOP. Where it is near impossible to get any answers what so ever regarding possible share allocations or distributions.
> 
> I am in a situation where I still have a claim in the ESOP albeit only 4/10ths share but with having taken so many cuts this year to my private sector job and the same being said for my wife. I was fully expecting an allocation or news of an allocation before Christmas; now that this looks unlikely I am unsure where to turn. At the very least I expected an honest answer to some of my questions which I put to the ESOP.
> 
> As I am sure you are aware ESOP is being very creative with the information they are putting out there to their members or lack of information. And telling people they know nothing a day before a glossy brochure is sent to all members doesn’t bode well. I am sure these brochures aren’t printed overnight.
> I don’t want to see eircom in jeopardy and fully support the need to keep the company going, but to have the possibility of the ESOP having to invest more into eircom down the line makes me uncomfortable.
> 
> I don’t want to see eircom fail but of late the company hasn’t been helping itself and the argument I have seen from some beneficiaries of the esot who are campaigning against the stt transaction is starting to get compelling, considering the lack of info available to esop members of late, and to hear finally from the cwu in the final days of a vote after no contact for so long only confuses me more.
> 
> Yours sincerely
> 
> Neonitrix


 

my reply received this morning:

Hi Neonitrix

The General Secretary is busy at meetings all day today and
passed your query onto me this morning.  The reason the CWU decided to
contact, where possible, former members on this occasion was simply that
a number of queries to Head Office indicated that there was a demand
there for such a communication.  Indeed I took a number of calls myself
from former members who on receipt of their ESOP Extra 21 were keen to
know the CWU position regarding the ballot.  As the circular outlines
the CWU believes that this transaction represents the best option for
the long term stability of the business and the opportunity to address
the considerable challenges that stability will provide.

I note your comments re communication with the ESOP and the
future strategy there and am passing your note onto the ESOP office as
they are best positioned to respond on those issues

Le meas
Jim


----------



## doughnut

For god's sake esop,are ye giving us our money or not. Otherwise i will have to take out a loan.  Bank says if it is payed back early,i will have to pay 56 weeks interest at 19.9%. It is so annoying to share holders that ye are not transparent about what effectively is ours.


----------



## neonitrix

cwu passed my email onto esot and here is the response i received today:

The CWU have asked the ESOT to respond to certain aspects of your query which you sent to them, and our response is set out below.
The ESOP board shares many of your concerns about the future of eircom, and like you wants to see it succeed. It is in all beneficiaries interests that it does so. I would therefore ask you to consider ESOP Extra 21 carefully, and to reflect on the long period of uncertainty that has existed in relation to eircom's ownership and the destabilising effect this has had on the company. Hopefully you will come to the same conclusion that the ESOP board has, that beneficiaries interests are best served by replacing ERC as the largest shareholder in eircom, with STT, a company with extensive experience and expertise in the telecoms industry, access to capital, a long term approach to investment, and a willingness to work with the ESOT in taking eircom forward. If eircom succeeds then all ESOT beneficiaries benefit as a result. 
In relation to ESOP Extra 21, it is important to point out that it factually represents the proposed transaction and sets out the ESOT board's views in a fair and balanced way. It is also a fact that the ESOP could not issue ESOP Extra 21 until after ERC had issued its Scheme Booklet which incidentally posted finally on Friday 13th, November. The ESOP succeeded in posting ESOP Extra 21 immediately thereafter to beneficiaries. Unfortunately, it is in the nature of negotiations on such matters, that the ESOT is required to refrain from any comment or publication while negotiations are in progress. There are also other regulatory approvals, such as in this case, the approval of the Australian Securities and Exchange Commission, that must be obtained before documents can be made public. You can be assured however that ESOP Extra 21 was posted to beneficiaries at the absolute earliest opportunity possible given all the above constraints that were upon us.
Regards, 
*Liz Gaffney*


----------



## ph3n0m

neonitrix said:


> cwu passed my email onto esot and here is the response i received today:
> 
> The CWU have asked the ESOT to respond to certain aspects of your query which you sent to them, and our response is set out below.
> The ESOP board shares many of your concerns about the future of eircom, and like you wants to see it succeed. It is in all beneficiaries interests that it does so. I would therefore ask you to consider ESOP Extra 21 carefully, and to reflect on the long period of uncertainty that has existed in relation to eircom's ownership and the destabilising effect this has had on the company. Hopefully you will come to the same conclusion that the ESOP board has, that beneficiaries interests are best served by replacing ERC as the largest shareholder in eircom, with STT, a company with extensive experience and expertise in the telecoms industry, access to capital, a long term approach to investment, and a willingness to work with the ESOT in taking eircom forward. If eircom succeeds then all ESOT beneficiaries benefit as a result.
> In relation to ESOP Extra 21, it is important to point out that it factually represents the proposed transaction and sets out the ESOT board's views in a fair and balanced way. It is also a fact that the ESOP could not issue ESOP Extra 21 until after ERC had issued its Scheme Booklet which incidentally posted finally on Friday 13th, November. The ESOP succeeded in posting ESOP Extra 21 immediately thereafter to beneficiaries. Unfortunately, it is in the nature of negotiations on such matters, that the ESOT is required to refrain from any comment or publication while negotiations are in progress. There are also other regulatory approvals, such as in this case, the approval of the Australian Securities and Exchange Commission, that must be obtained before documents can be made public. You can be assured however that ESOP Extra 21 was posted to beneficiaries at the absolute earliest opportunity possible given all the above constraints that were upon us.
> Regards,
> *Liz Gaffney*



eh? call me blind - but she actually didnt reply to any of your original queries at all!


----------



## neonitrix

ph3n0m said:


> eh? call me blind - but she actually didnt reply to any of your original queries at all!


 

I understand that and am not surprised its Esop after all isnt it.

Neonitrix


----------



## ph3n0m

doughnut said:


> For god's sake esop,are ye giving us our money or not. Otherwise i will have to take out a loan.  Bank says if it is payed back early,i will have to pay 56 weeks interest at 19.9%. It is so annoying to share holders that ye are not transparent about what effectively is ours.




Ditto - and thats if I can get myself a loan in time - think this christmas is going to be extremely lean, but atleast if we knew about money being paid out or not, it wouldnt have to be that messy


----------



## ph3n0m

ExEircom said:


> You obviously can't see the bigger picture you little person.....
> 
> Well that's how I feel like I'm been treated ( in case anyone takes offence ) by them in this matter.
> 
> 'Money that's only for the great unwashed.... We don't contemplate such mundane matters'
> 
> Should be the ESOP  ( if it isn't already and we are being terribly naive ) Mission Statement
> 
> Or more crudely put
> 
> 'Tell the cu nts nothing'.. Sorry for the profanity but that is how I feel they view us. An annoyance whose existence has to be acknowledged  on sufferance every now and again.




very true, unfortunately


----------



## irishpancake

ph3n0m said:


> eh? call me blind - but she actually didnt reply to any of your original queries at all!



I'm sorry ph3n0m, ExEircom and neonitrix.

I simply cannot understand the basis of your vitriolic attacks on both CWU and ESOP.

neonitrix sent a letter/email to the GS of the CWU and received a curteous reply. 

The letter/email was sent to the ESOP by the CWU, who also replied in detail to the supposed lack of information allegation.

From neonitrix original letter/email, as published here, it is hard to actually find any substantive queries other than the lack of information allegations.



> _As I am sure you are aware ESOP is being very creative with the information they are putting out there to their members or lack of information. And telling people they know nothing a day before a glossy brochure is sent to all members doesn’t bode well. I am sure these brochures aren’t printed overnight.
> I don’t want to see eircom in jeopardy and fully support the need to keep the company going, but to have the possibility of the ESOP having to invest more into eircom down the line makes me uncomfortable.
> 
> I don’t want to see eircom fail but of late the company hasn’t been helping itself and the argument I have seen from some beneficiaries of the esot who are campaigning against the stt transaction is starting to get compelling, considering the lack of info available to esop members of late, and to hear finally from the cwu in the final days of a vote after no contact for so long only confuses me more. _



Which queries were not answered by the ESOP or CWU replies?

Is there some further information in the original letter/email which has not been published here, or some other communication which preceded this letter/email?

It is hard to understand the cause of the anger which is obviously being felt by some ESOP participants, generally ex-eircom and ex-CWU.

While I am attempting to understand it, using abusive terminology is no substitute for cogent arguments.



ExEircom said:


> Or more crudely put
> 
> 'Tell the cu nts nothing'.. Sorry for the profanity but that is how I feel they view us. An annoyance whose existence has to be acknowledged on sufferance every now and again.



No point in being sorry after using profanity instead of argument, unless you intend to edit this out of your post, which I think you should do, out of respect for other users of AAM. 

Perhaps you should look at the rules of the Board, particularly , and reconsider how you put your arguments forward.


----------



## Burman

Irishpancake, the cause of the anger is simple, LACK OF INFORMATION, from the ESOP. I am Ex Eircom (and Ex IMPACT). I do not want to see Eircom going down the tubes and this is not just that half my future pension will come from there. I respect that ESOP has a lot to deal with but even when it hadn't, members/ shareholders were kept in the dark. It's a simple question, Payment or No Payement before Christmas. I have emailed this question to ESOP from the web site and I have not received a reply. At this stage my only recourse would appear to be through a solicitor to find out exactly what are my rights ( or lack of them). It may be a path we will all have to travel.


----------



## Evertondub

Ex-Eircom, you say...


> They are sitting at the moment on circa €250m of assets that are ours over and above the 35% stake in Eircom.


 
Can you say how this €250m is calculated and what it consists of? I am wondering as it seems to conflict with the valuation put on the ESOT by the CWU.

Thanks.


----------



## penpusher

We're sobbing quietly in our respective corners.....


----------



## ph3n0m

well keep sobbing - got a reply from ESOP this morning 

my email to them was a direct question whether there would be a payment pre-christmas, their complete reply is below



> The Trustee have made no announcement regarding the next distribution of shares, but it is the policy of the Trustee to keep distributions of shares under review at all time .
> Regards


----------



## luckylou

ph3n0m said:


> well keep sobbing - got a reply from ESOP this morning
> 
> my email to them was a direct question whether there would be a payment pre-christmas, their complete reply is below





When will we know the outcome of the ballot?


----------



## Grover

Well today was the last day for sending in votes so that should be announced tomorrow. I think if there is a distribution it will be announced next week so if we hear nothing next week that will be that. I do think they should put up a notice to say one way or the other


----------



## luckylou

I agree Grover......a straight answer would be nice. 
I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## ex-union

Once the yes vote is in ESOP will issue a statement to say a distribution will be reviewed in early 2010 .


----------



## Grover

ex-union said:


> Once the yes vote is in ESOP will issue a statement to say a distribution will be reviewed in early 2010 .


What happens if it is a NO vote?  I voted yes myself but a Yes majority should not be assumed


----------



## paul o b

we have as much chance of getting a payout before christmas , as ireland have of being admitted to play in the world cup


----------



## Burman

ex-union said:


> Once the yes vote is in ESOP will issue a statement to say a distribution will be reviewed in early 2010 .


 
Why wait until results are in? It doesn't make sense. What you appear to be saying is that if its a YEs vote we might stand a chance of getting a payment "early" next year. But if it's a NO vote we can go *@!^ ourselves.


----------



## ex-union

yes burman thats exactly what i'm saying.


----------



## LongGone

ex-union said:


> yes burman thats exactly what i'm saying.



I hope you'll excuse me, but given the number of predictions you've made so far, all of which were supposedly definite, I'll take this current prediction with a grain of salt.


----------



## neonitrix

ex-union said:


> Once the yes vote is in ESOP will issue a statement to say a distribution will be reviewed in early 2010 .


 
I cannot believe how much information you have been fed throughout this thread, would love to know where you getting it from, i cannot understand two things.

1. if you information is coming from a union source - how would cwu condone a vote yes or no money stance or (threat - ok threat might not be the right word but you get the gist)

2. if info is coming from a esop source - how do you get info out of them and none of the rest of us can?

nothing changes for me, i voted no to the takeover due to the possibility that in the future esop would have to invest more funds into eircom 


Neonitrix


----------



## ex-union

A lot of people including myself were being given information from the cwu and credit union. I have seen documentation from the cu to a member telling him they were aware he would be in receipt of an esop payment before xmas.I only relayed information as a contribution to this forum just like everybody else.A national exec meeting was held three weeks ago and the NE were told by an esop person there would be no payout this year.Dont blame the messenger.It is my opinion that the esop were treating the cwu like the esop members with utter contempt.The union are condoning a yes vote to save jobs and pensions,lump sum payments can come after that.Just for your information I was an active member with the union for 30 years and still have contacts.


----------



## Grover

ex-union said:


> A lot of people including myself were being given information from the cwu and credit union. I have seen documentation from the cu to a member telling him they were aware he would be in receipt of an esop payment before xmas.I only relayed information as a contribution to this forum just like everybody else.A national exec meeting was held three weeks ago and the NE were told by an esop person there would be no payout this year.Dont blame the messenger.It is my opinion that the esop were treating the cwu like the esop members with utter contempt.The union are condoning a yes vote to save jobs and pensions,lump sum payments can come after that.Just for your information I was an active member with the union for 30 years and still have contacts.


 My issue is that they gave this information to CWU and credit union before us and as an esop member that includes you. - and it appears that they are giving them conflicting information as well


----------



## paul o b

is this not a point i have made time and time again ? the cwu or anybody else have absolutly no right to ANY information before esop members . why do people on this forum keep looking to them to deliver news to us ? its NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS


----------



## ex-union

"the terms of the esop were agreed between the union coalition,the company and the satate in 1998."
"4 directors including the chairman were nomimated by the union coalition"
are you seriously trying to tell me its none of their business,wake up and smell the coffee lads.


----------



## ex-union

the yes vote was passed.


----------



## ph3n0m

ex-union said:


> the yes vote was passed.




did it pass by much? suppose that is good news for current employees of eircom


still doesnt help us poor schmucks, some of whom do depend on the distributions


----------



## ex-union

96.5% yes 3.5% no
8,732 ballots returned ( a return of 61.2%) a lot of people don't seem to be bothered.


----------



## Eircomlifer

*Result of Ballot of ESOP Participants - 2 December 2009*​
The Board of the eircom ESOP Trustee is pleased to announce the result of the Ballot of ESOP Participants on the Acquisition by Emerald Communications (Cayman) SPC of eircom Holdings Limited and the ESOP Proposal as follows: 

The number of ballot papers returned was 8,732 (a return of 61.2%).

*Resolution on the Acquisition by Emerald Communications (Cayman) SPC of eircom Holdings Limited and the ESOP Proposal* 

· The total number of valid ballots cast was 8,672

· The number of valid ballots cast in favour was 8,371 (96.5% of valid ballots)

· The number of valid ballots cast against was 301 (3.5% of valid ballots)


----------



## luckylou

Have you heard any more news on the December payout Eircomlifer?


----------



## loaner

Having being on a roller coaster like everyone  else that has read this thread I am glad to hear that the vote has been passed  and maybe it will leave the ESOP with some flexibility.
The thing that bugs me most was the use of the  word  "windfall" often used by the press. I prefer to look at it as an interest  free loan which I will be paying back until the day I die, let me explain.  
Before the esop there used to be a bonus scheme  which realised a bonus of at least €600 to €700 a year, that stopped and we  began to pay a percentage of our wages into the pension fund which in my case is  now over €2,000 a year over 20 years works out at €40,000.There were some pay  rises which we did not get and as all pay rises are bases on a percentage of  existing wages that gap has increased over the years and as the pension is based  on earning our pension will be less than it would be had the esop not been  established, points that the press for some reason never seen to  mention.
So as we race towards 2014 and the end of the esop  (at which point half of the existing staff will have retired and maybe depending  on the money that they have saved from the esop) just remember  just like the puppy this loan is  not just for Christmas its for life.


----------



## dr1nky

...


----------



## penpusher

ex-union said:


> 96.5% yes 3.5% no
> 8,732 ballots returned ( a return of 61.2%) a lot of people don't seem to be bothered.


 
A low return alright. Might this be evidence of members feeling disenfranchised and powerless in the face of an organisation which seems to care less about our views in any case? Dialogue costs nothing Esot.


----------



## Grover

penpusher said:


> A low return alright. Might this be evidence of members feeling disenfranchised and powerless in the face of an organisation which seems to care less about our views in any case? Dialogue costs nothing Esot.


I am sorry I am annoyed with the esop as well but the members vote is what gives us power and not using it (whether they vote yes or no) only gives members less power surely


----------



## Burman

Grover said:


> I am sorry I am annoyed with the esop as well but the members vote is what gives us power and not using it (whether they vote yes or no) only gives members less power surely


 I agree Grover. Now all we have to do is harness that anger / dissatisfaction from 14,000 members and get everyone to phone or email ESOP and get an answer to a question We all want answered.


----------



## penpusher

Grover said:


> I am sorry I am annoyed with the esop as well but the members vote is what gives us power and not using it (whether they vote yes or no) only gives members less power surely


 
I think you missed my point Grover and I wouldn't argue with yours. Perhaps I was being oblique. I would have thought a low turn-out would indicate that a high percentage of esop members believe that their vote is meaningless. 

Whether it is or not is another argument altogether but there is obviously a lot of apathy out there amongst the members with regard to the esop. I place responsibility for this firmly at the door of the Esot. Their dismal communication record ironically sends a very clear message that the membership are irrelevant to them.


----------



## ex-union

An article in the Irish Times today "Eircom to slash jobs and cuts"I thought the whole idea of voting yes for esop was to save jobs.


----------



## Grover

The reason the yes vote was requested was to get STT to purchase and give eircom a long term support. Job cuts and spend cuts were always going to be inevitable to improve the company


----------



## doughnut

I read the irish times and it sprung to mind, esop were saying they may have to buy into the new company, i think this is why funds are been kept, they are fairly sure they will have to buy in.


----------



## paul o b

yes but this process is not set to take place for another 18 months when a determination will be made regarding further investment from esop . does this mean then that no payout is likely to be forthcoming for at least 18 months , or until such time as they establish whether or not further investment will be required ?


----------



## bstop

The esop should immediately pay the full 12700 euro to all members.
It should then seek reinvestment of this money from all willing members and make up any shortfall from other investors or by a loan, into a seperate fund to invest into eircom.

This would allow members to gain the full tax free payment allowed.
It would also mean that the reinvested 12700 euro from each member would only be liable to capital gains tax on any profits when it is eventually paid back to the members.


----------



## doughnut

Paul. With no info coming from esop, this could be the case. When the company was sold before, they at least gave the info that no shares were been brought down.The fact that they are saying nothing,does not look good.


----------



## LongGone

bstop said:


> The esop should immediately pay the full 12700 euro to all members.



I don't think they actually have that much money.


----------



## ph3n0m

ah monday and...nothing...oh well time for a loan


----------



## doughnut

yes just got one wont have to pay back huge interest if esop pay out this month not even a yes or no from esop


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## JerTheGrinch

Whats the last working day for the ESOP before Xmas. I wonder if you rang them at lunchtime that day, asked about a Xmas payout, would you still get the 'We don't know' line


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## paul o b

lads i think we are starting to go down the fr ted road with this . there was an episode were teds star player for the over 75s is lying dead in the coffin and ted wants to know if it is definitly out of the question that he can play . that is what this is like with esop , talk about clutching at straws "


----------



## hopalong

apparently there is to be a ballot on an all out strike shortly,something to do with the ex payphone staff who are being kept in the  R B U.also theres a ban on overtime.


----------



## Burman

Tried ringing ESOP this morning to at least get them to issue a statement but they are not answering th ephones. It would now appear that we no longer have any means of cummunication. What a convenient way to avoid those irritating ordinary shareholders....


----------



## brookied

Afternoon guys,
well i just called Esop and spoke with Liz, for what its worth she is saying that it is very unlikely a payment will be here this side of xmas, killer but i think we all knew that anyway.

When i asked about the lack of statement Liz just referd me back to the last edition of Esop Extra page 41 and that if the trustees change their stance the website would be updated.

dunno if anyone else has anything to offer on the above but looks like nothing before xmas....great :-(


----------



## ph3n0m

brookied said:


> Afternoon guys,
> well i just called Esop and spoke with Liz, for what its worth she is saying that it is very unlikely a payment will be here this side of xmas, killer but i think we all knew that anyway.
> 
> When i asked about the lack of statement Liz just referd me back to the last edition of Esop Extra page 41 and that if the trustees change their stance the website would be updated.
> 
> dunno if anyone else has anything to offer on the above but looks like nothing before xmas....great :-(




well thats about as direct an answer that anyone has ever got - funny how we couldnt get that before that vote


----------



## paul o b

all this talk in this mornings indo about stt in for the long haul , and wanting to work closely with staff , and shareholders does this suggest a payout is likely in the near future ?


----------



## brookied

*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]eircom               ESOP Trustee Limited[/FONT]*​ *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1               Heuston South Quarter[/FONT]*​ *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]St.               John’s Road[/FONT]*​ *[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Dublin               8[/FONT]*​              [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]                [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  [/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Court           Approval for STT acquisition of eircom Holdings Limited[/FONT]*​           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The board of           _eircom _ ESOP Trustee is pleased to advise that           the Australian Courts have today (16th December) approved           the STT acquisition of eircom Holdings Limited (‘ ERC’). This           follows the overwhelming approval of the STT Offer by ERC shareholders           at a Scheme Meeting held on 15th December.[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The transaction is expected to conclude in early           January following final Court approval in Australia.[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The board of           _eircom _ ESOP Trustee welcomes the approval of           the Australian Courts and the overwhelming endorsement of ESOP           beneficiaries for the transaction and they looks forward to working           constructively with STT in dealing with the many challenges that lie           ahead.[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  Yours           sincerely,[/FONT]           

                      [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

*Con Scanlon*         [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT][/FONT]
         [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*General         Manager & Company Secretary*[/FONT]
         [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*eircom         ESOP Trustee Limited*[/FONT]
           [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 
[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]16 December 2009[/FONT]*


----------



## Montreal

Hi All, please see below the email stream between myself and a CWU rep after I had asked for Union Solicitor's details.........see what you think, are we being pushed to the side????? Sorry if it's a bit long winded......


_Hi _
_In relation to your interest in speaking with the Union solicitor re the_
_ESOP I can tell you that the Union retains the services of Daly Lynch_
_Crowe._
_However, I should point out that these solicitors are there to advise on_
_matters of employment law. They would not necessarily have a particular_
_expertise on ESOP matters or legal issues pertaining to same._
_Should you wish to raise an issue with them regarding the ESOP you would_
_be doing this on a personal basis and not as a member of the union. As_
_you no doubt know the ESOP is separate from the Union._
_I should also note that the ESOP has its own legal representatives and I_
_would respectfully suggest that your queries might be better served if_
_they were put in writing to this group on the basis that they will_
_likely have the expertise and knowledge required to address you_
_questions._
_Regards,_

_Ian McArdle_


_Hi Ian,_
_I don't know if you have ever had occasion to make enquiries of the ESOP_
_office but I can tell you that they are unhelpful to the point of being_
_rude. It is obvious to all that they are told not to give information_
_but instead try to frustrate anyone who has the cheek to ask a question._
_Therefore I am asking you, as my Union rep, to enquire for me: _
_1) When is the next public meeting of the Board to announce figures and_
_results so we, as members of ESOP, may ask questions directly of the_
_Board?_
_2) Were there any bonuses paid to Board members as a result of the_
_recent take-over by STT and if so , in what amount ?_
_3) What has happened to the money that was redeemed against shares this_
_summer but not distributed to the people in whose names the money was_
_collected?_
_4) What happened to the notion that there would be different people_
_voted onto the Board at regular intervals by the members and not by_
_their own little self perpetuating clique?_
_And most importantly,_
_5) What gives them the right to treat us with utter disdain when we make_
_enquiries?_
_It would appear that the Board are more interested in maintaining the_
_jobs they have fallen into rather than representing the members wishes,_
_the members they were put there to represent. Are we to be left with no_
_other option but to launch a legal challenge against such intransigence._
_While the ESOP are a separate entity from the Union, surely the Union_
_will listen to it's members concerns. I would be grateful for answers to_
_the above questions which are just a few of the questions posed on_
_various web-sites by eircom and CWU personnel past and present._
_Regards,_


_Hi _
_In answer to your question I have never had to make enquiries to the_
_ESOP office, as I said before this is not my area of expertise as I am_
_neither involved in, or a beneficiary of, the ESOP. That said I find it_
_hard to believe that the staff are either unhelpful or rude and I am_
_sure they are just doing their job._
_To the substance of your email i.e. your questions, I feel it is_
_important that I be clear with you on my role as your Union rep. It is_
_my duty to advise and guide you on matters pertaining to your employment_
_and to represent you, where appropriate, in dealings with your employer._
_The ESOP is not your employer so you will, I am sure, appreciate my_
_reluctance to make enquiries to the ESOP on your behalf where I have no_
_jurisdiction as it were. _
_Be that as it may however, I will seek to shed light on your questions_
_in consultation with my colleagues who better understand the workings of_
_the ESOP._
_Regards,_
_Ian _


_Hi Ian,_
_I do understand your position regarding ESOP yet the Union did feel_
_involved enough to call for a positive vote in the recent ballot and_
_also the ESOP saw fit to communicate with the Union before it's members_
_regarding the situation before the ballot....stinks, doesn't it?? I can_
_also assure you that the ESOP staff are NOT helpful in any way._
_I see absolutely no problem in me asking you to make enquiries on my_
_behalf to the ESOP any more than with any other aspect of the business._
_The Union sees fit to deal with Insurance companies, health companies_
_and other outside agencies on our behalf so why not ESOP too??_
_I look forward to your colleagues replies to my questions but I'd prefer_
_the answers direct from the 'horses mouth' so to speak._
_Regards,_

_Please see email below from my colleague in relation to your ESOP queries._
_Kind regards_
_Ian_

_Hi Ian,_
_I note the correspondence below between you and S regarding the ESOP and the recent transaction. As you know I dealt with queries in here from past and present members re. this transaction. The CWU position was well articulated by the General Secretary and simply stated was, that this transaction represented the best current opportunity for stability and all that brings with it for eircom and by extension our members working there. Thankfully 96.5% of those voting on the resolution agreed with that view. _
_S makes some sweeping statements about staff at the ESOP office who deal with phone queries. In my own experience I have never found the staff there to be unhelpful, rude or disdaining and have never heard them referred to as such by anybody else. S is quite correct when he acknowledges that these people are given the answers to anticipated questions, however he is equally incorrect when he deduces that this is done to frustrate callers. There are, particularly at times of a major transaction, legal limitations on the information that may be disseminated into the public arena and the absolute necessity to ensure the accuracy of this information. Policy decisions, such as distributions and their timing, are made by the board and until they are made cannot be communicated by anybody._
_Finally there are five questions related to the ESOP in the note from S, I hope I've covered number five. Given his stated wish to have the answers from the "horses mouth", as he puts it, I respectfully suggest that he refers the other four to the ESOP General Manager who is best positioned and qualified to provide an accurate response_
_Le meas_
_Jim _

_Hi Ian,_
_Many thanks for your assistance with my enquiries. Your colleague 'Jim' who does not have the courtesy to supply his surname, displays the same arrogant attitude of Union officials towards cwu members that I have endured for some 30 years now. At least that shows consistancy of a sort, I suppose. ' Don't ever question the Union' still seems to be the motto._
_I would like to point out to 'Jim' that there are a great many present and ex eircom workers very unhappy with the way the ESOP board carries out it's duties. Also, many of the people I've spoken with and corresponded with recently have all complained about the staff answering queries at the ESOP office. In fact your colleague 'Jim', who, I understand from yourself, deals with ESOP matters, didn't answer any questions either but instead went on the attack, nothing new there either. I hope you can forward this to him also but I'm sure he's not interested in actually listening to a CWU member's questions._
_Anyway, the fact remains that I am as much in the dark as when I started, I will try the ESOP office again myself as it would appear my Union subscription is only useful to get cheaper car insurance as it certainly doesn't buy me any real support. I can understand why so many have left the CWU ._
_Howsoever, I do appreciate the fact that you returned my emails so promptly and as we see what pans out over the coming year perhaps we shall correspond again._
_Best regards,_


----------



## paul o b

in every post i submitted to date i have made the point that in times of awkward questions , or trouble the cwu will distence themselves from the esop and this has once again been confirmed by the contents of the above emails . they always claim they are seperate , yet when things are good they cant wait to claim the credit as the barers of glad tidings


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## paul o b

did you know that the same cwu who claim to have no imput into the running of esop were successful in securing full time employment for some of their former colleagues branch officers , and higher who are now retired from  eircom , and are now in full time employment working for esop .


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## doughnut

Nice one montreal. i would like to see answer to what happened to the rest of last summers payout.


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## irishpancake

Montreal

You said:



> I would like to point out to 'Jim' that there are a great many present and ex eircom workers very unhappy with the way the ESOP board carries out it's duties.




CWU Rep _Jim_ said:



> The CWU position was well articulated by the General Secretary and simply stated was, that this transaction represented the best current opportunity for stability and all that brings with it for eircom and by extension our members working there. Thankfully 96.5% of those voting on the resolution agreed with that view.



The Result of the Ballot of ESOP Participants, :



> Result of Ballot of ESOP Participants
> 
> The Board of the eircom ESOP Trustee is pleased to announce the result of the Ballot of ESOP Participants on the Acquisition by Emerald Communications (Cayman) SPC of eircom Holdings Limited and the ESOP Proposal as follows:
> 
> The number of ballot papers returned was 8,732 (a return of 61.2%).
> 
> Resolution on the Acquisition by Emerald Communications (Cayman) SPC of eircom Holdings Limited and the ESOP Proposal
> 
> The total number of valid ballots cast was 8,672
> The number of valid ballots cast in favour was 8,371 (96.5% of valid ballots)
> The number of valid ballots cast against was 301 (3.5% of valid ballots)



Can you provide evidence of the "great many present and ex eircom workers" who feel as you do?

Or is it just that there are a few malcontents, who apparently are not inclined to accept the result of a great many democratic votes and ballots, and are pursuing a campaign of vilification against both the CWU and the ESOP Trustees?


----------



## Burman

I have spoken to some of my ex colleagues still in Eircom and they are not happy either. I know that is hard to quantify but I would add my name to list of those who are discontented. Any one else ?


----------



## dr1nky

irishpancake said:


> Can you provide evidence of the "great many present and ex eircom workers" who feel as you do?
> 
> Or is it just that there are a few malcontents, who apparently are not inclined to accept the result of a great many democratic votes and ballots, and are pursuing a campaign of vilification against both the CWU and the ESOP Trustees?


 
You can pop this in your 'Exhibit A' evidence bag as I too feel the same way, in that 'there are a great many present and ex eircom workers very unhappy with the way the ESOP board carries out it's duties'. I might be like a broken record here ....but where's the communication between the ESOP Board and it's members? What's happening with the part of our allocation that was held back? etc. 

What's the purpose of throwing the result of the ballot in Montreal's face when he's simply stating that he doesn't like the way that the ESOP Board carry out their duties? I would agree with Montreal 100% so do I now fall into the 'Malcontents' category? ....hardly now, come on!?!

Dr1nKy


----------



## irishpancake

dr1nky said:


> You can pop this in your 'Exhibit A' evidence bag as I too feel the same way, in that 'there are a great many present and ex eircom workers very unhappy with the way the ESOP board carries out it's duties'.



No evidence bag required at all here, but you have just said this is your _*feeling*_, for which you offer absolutely no evidence.



dr1nky said:


> I might be like a broken record here ....but where's the communication between the ESOP Board and it's members? What's happening with the part of our allocation that was held back? etc.



The ESOP have issued many Communications, sent to Participants home address's. These go into the reasoning behind the decisions taken by ESOP in great detail. There are some issues they will not comment on, because of _*legal limitations on the information that may be disseminated into the public arena*_

As Montreal found out:



> There are, particularly at times of a major transaction, legal limitations on the information that may be disseminated into the public arena and the absolute necessity to ensure the accuracy of this information. Policy decisions, such as distributions and their timing, are made by the board and until they are made cannot be communicated by anybody.








dr1nky said:


> What's the purpose of throwing the result of the ballot in Montreal's face when he's simply stating that he doesn't like the way that the ESOP Board carry out their duties?



I am simply pointing to the result of the last Ballot of Participants, which had an overwhealming majority in favour of the ESOP strategy. If you don't like a democcratic decision, you set it aside in favour of your _*feelings*_. That makes no sense, in fact it is nonsense, and profoundly undemocratic.




dr1nky said:


> I would agree with Montreal 100% so do I now fall into the 'Malcontents' category? ....hardly now, come on!?!



I think that neither you nor Montreal are contented, so that would put you in the category you refer to.


----------



## dr1nky

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dr1nky*
_You can pop this in your 'Exhibit A' evidence bag as I too feel the same way, in that 'there are a great many present and ex _*eircom*_ workers very unhappy with the way the _*ESOP*_ board carries out it's duties'._

No evidence bag required at all here, but you have just said this is your *feeling*, for which you offer absolutely no evidence.

Yes, this is my feeling. This, coupled with Montreal’s feeling, and that of many more that frequently post to this forum makes ‘a great many’ who share my feelings!

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dr1nky*
_I might be like a broken record here ....but where's the communication between the _*ESOP*_ Board and it's members? What's happening with the part of our allocation that was held back? etc. _

The *ESOP* have issued many Communications, sent to Participants home address's. These go into the reasoning behind the decisions taken by *ESOP* in great detail. There are some issues they will not comment on, because of *legal limitations on the information that may be disseminated into the public arena*

Yeah, it’s great that ESOP keep me informed by means of the occasional glossy ‘ESOP Extra’ which I’m sure costs the ESOP members a pretty penny! With regards to ‘legal limitations on the information that may be disseminated into the public arena’ - why can’t the ESOP ‘Helpline’ (ha ha!) tell us this and not just tell us that they know nothing? And why not have an online ballot instead of wasting more funds on postage costs for the ballot returns etc?

As Montreal found out:
Quote:
There are, particularly at times of a major transaction, legal limitations on the information that may be disseminated into the public arena and the absolute necessity to ensure the accuracy of this information. Policy decisions, such as distributions and their timing, are made by the board and until they are made cannot be communicated by anybody. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dr1nky*
_What's the purpose of throwing the result of the ballot in Montreal's face when he's simply stating that he doesn't like the way that the _*ESOP*_ Board carry out their duties? _

I am simply pointing to the result of the last Ballot of Participants, which had an overwhealming majority in favour of the *ESOP* strategy. If you don't like a democcratic decision, you set it aside in favour of your *feelings*. That makes no sense, in fact it is nonsense, and profoundly undemocratic.

I do like a democratic decision and I, in fact, voted ‘Yes’ myself. The main reason being, that there was no information available as to what would happen if a ‘No’ vote was passed. We may have been steered towards a ‘Yes’ vote due to a lack of information as to what exactly a ‘No’ vote would have meant for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *dr1nky*
_I would agree with Montreal 100% so do I now fall into the 'Malcontents' category? ....hardly now, come on!?! _

I think that neither you nor Montreal are contented, so that would put you in the category you refer to. 

I suppose you’re right, maybe I do fall into the ‘Malcontent’ category but, not because I am chronically dissatisfied, but more that I am one who rebels against the established system…

Dr1nKy


----------



## Grover

''I am simply pointing to the result of the last Ballot of Participants, which had an overwhealming majority in favour of the ESOP strategy. If you don't like a democcratic decision, you set it aside in favour of your _*feelings*_. That makes no sense, in fact it is nonsense, and profoundly undemocratic.''


I do not believe that a yes vote says that the overwhelming majority are in favour of the ESOP strategy - they are simply in favour of STT buying out eircom. Yes the ESOP want this as well but the reason some people ( I am not going to claim a majority here as I believe that you will want exact numbers which I cannot supply but if look at the members of this thread you might get an idea) have an issue with the esop stategy is that we do not know what it is. We are never advised until we are going to receive a notification, a decision was made not to provide an allocation this month so why not tell us why or even officially announce that they are not doing an allocation ? A decision was made to hold back funding in the summer in case they had to buy in to eircom. They do not need to do this know unless perhaps in 2011 so why not release these funds? We are not looking for too much, just information on what is happening with our shares and their reason/justification for these decisions- at the end of the day we are the owners of the esop as it is our shares so they should surely be able to keep up up to date on what is going on - and I do not want the legal information which I do understand needs to be monitored but general information would be appreciated.


----------



## penpusher

irishpancake said:


> I think that neither you nor Montreal are contented, so that would put you in the category you refer to.


 

Pancake, you surprise me, one should never end a sentence with a preposition.

And with regard to your comment concerning the democratic process, I would like to ask your views on the apparent 'hand in glove' behaviour of the union and esop.

It is a fact that they claim autonomy from one another, yet all the evidence, yes, evidence, would suggest that they are operating in tandem but yet they deny it every time.

Why, if there is nothing to hide, do they both continually deny any dealings they may have with one another? Methinks something stinks.

How do many ex-union officials find their way into jobs in the ESOP?

What happened to the money redeemed in our names and withheld in the summer? This has never been answered! And I mean a straight answer, not a referral to ESOP 21.

The Campaign for Plain English would have a field day with ESOP 21.

I am simply looking for transparency but am lost in a fog of jargon and half-truths.


----------



## paul o b

happy new year everyone . as far as i know this is the day when the final documents are signed in relation to the sale of eircom to stt . hopefully there will be an anouncement regarding a payout at some time in the not to distent future when this process is completed


----------



## jdwex

This was in Irish Times before Christmas


> In the event that all of the existing Eircom shareholders take the cash offer on the table, convertible loan notes – for about 15 per cent of the company – will be issued that can be redeemed as shares in Emerald Communications Cayman (ECC), the new vehicle that will own Eircom.
> 
> A third-party investor will be sought for the loan notes but if none is found by mid 2011, the Esot will be obliged to buy them.



Indo today



> It has also emerged that almost no shareholders in Eircom Holdings opted for a scrip consideration that would have enabled them to receive both a cash amount and shares in Emerald Communications, the new holding company for Eircom established by STT.
> 
> A minimum of 10pc of Eircom Holdings' total issued shares had to be elected by all shareholders for the scrip condition to be activated, but the total amounted to just 1.16pc of issued shares, meaning that shareholders will now only receive a cash consideration.



My reading is that buyers of these loan notes must be found by 2011, otherwise the ESOT must buy some of them (for about 10m Euro or so, I think)


----------



## hopalong

paul you were the best cwu rep we had.why oh why did you leave us in our time of need.


----------



## paul o b

hopalong you have aroused my curiousity , please reveal yourself even by pm


----------



## hopalong

the towel of the scullery is in hammond lane.


----------



## mullingar

Are we likely to get any money soon from ESOP lads??? Im out of there some time now but still could do with some funds!!!


----------



## twinnie

wouldnt hold my breath mullingar


----------



## paul o b

i would think there is a good chance of a payout in the near future . if you look at previous buyouts of the company , there has always been a payout when conclusion of the proposed sale was completed . in addition to that , they are very much aware of the disgruntilment that currently exsist amongst esop members ,  whether that will be a factor or not when they access the financial implications of a possible payout remains to be seen


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## johnny cash

Hi. First post so go easy. Current employee (22 years). Rumours are one of the few constants in work. Every week seems to bring a new one. So, this weeks edition has the new owners looking to invest 100 million in the network to provide fibre to the curb and looking for the ESOP to provide 35% of this investment. It is seen as part of the long term solution, to compete with other service providers bringing t.v., broadband and phone in one cable.


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## paul o b

well johnny i would suggest that if that is the case , some of us will be pushing up daisies before we see another payout


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## johnny cash

Indeed. Not good news, but then again, next week may bring completely different news.


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## Grover

johnny cash said:


> Hi. First post so go easy. Current employee (22 years). Rumours are one of the few constants in work. Every week seems to bring a new one. So, this weeks edition has the new owners looking to invest 100 million in the network to provide fibre to the curb and looking for the ESOP to provide 35% of this investment. It is seen as part of the long term solution, to compete with other service providers bringing t.v., broadband and phone in one cable.


Wouldn't another ballot be required if they were going to invest funds into the company??


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## paul o b

grover up to now they have done everything they have wanted to without holding a ballot . indeed their arrogance was such , that in most issues they did not even CONSULT us .  they redeemed shares in our name in june , but did not give us a payout , also a payout was expected at christmas by the vast majority , this was also not forthcoming , they would like us to believe that this is prudent management of our money , my believe is that this is their way way of ensuring continuity of secure employment for their former union coharts of whom so many are now employed by esop . ps then they tell us that the esop and union are seperate entities


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## doughnut

The percentage of esop board are ex eircom union people, who received redundancy payments and are now looking to secure their employment.


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## paul o b

doughnut that is exactly the point i am making


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## Grover

paul o b said:


> grover up to now they have done everything they have wanted to without holding a ballot . indeed their arrogance was such , that in most issues they did not even CONSULT us . they redeemed shares in our name in june , but did not give us a payout , also a payout was expected at christmas by the vast majority , this was also not forthcoming , they would like us to believe that this is prudent management of our money , my believe is that this is their way way of ensuring continuity of secure employment for their former union coharts of whom so many are now employed by esop . ps then they tell us that the esop and union are seperate entities


 I'm not disagreeing with you but surely to invest funds they have to have a ballot. In the same way that we had to agree to a possible reinvestment due to the STT buyout. They did not have to do a ballot to stop allocations (so they could keep esop and their jobs longer) but to invest funds they would have to get a majority vote which I do not belive they will get this time


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## paul o b

i just feel that the whole thing was a con job from start to finish . if you cast your mind back to the inception of esop , we were givin the distinct impression that we were going to make a once off killing , people were talking of figures in the region of 150k per man , now while i accept they did not say anything of the sort , they did absolutly nothing to quell the roumers . they knew people were on a high with the expectation of a life changing amount it was only after we signed up to esop that they drew our attention to the fact we could not exceed 12,700 in any one year, in fact one particular manager talked about how he was going to upgrade his boat on the strenght of this money . in addition to that there was a perception that the esop board were to be ELECTED  to office on an anual basis , the same people have been there since it all began with the exception of those who were replaced through ether having left , or retired from esop or whatever other reason . in any event we were NOT asked who we wanted to replace those who had left [ again a clear breech of the domocratic principles they advocate support for ] and an obvious route to secure employment for their former c w u colleagues . finally it is my recolection that regular meetings would take place between esop members, and the esop board , this has not happened in fact i cannot remember the last time such a meeting took place if at all . are they afraid awkward questions may be asked ?


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## doughnut

Paul .o b The esop board never had a meeting with the members, the whole setup is so undemocratic it stinks.


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## doughnut

if the esop board want to invest more money in eircom ex workers should be given the option to opt out


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## irishpancake

paul o b said:


> *if you cast your mind back to the inception of esop , we were givin the distinct impression that we were going to make a once off killing , people were talking of figures in the region of 150k per man *



Obviously, *mr. o b*, you are suffering from selective memory syndrome or selective memory loss, possibly to put some ridiculous negative construct on what has happened with ESOP since it's inception.

It is my recollection, and this is borne out by the extensive documentation _*which was distributed to prospective participants and road shows prior to ESOP*_, that share allocations were to be handled in a particular way for tax efficiency, in line with legislation. There was, and is, a limit of £10,000 which could be distributed in any tax year. This equates to the €12,700 figure you quote. 

I have provided links below so as to allow you to refresh your faulty memory in regard to what actually happened.











paul o b said:


> *now while i accept they did not say anything of the sort , they did absolutly nothing to quell the roumers .*



So you accept that there is no factual basis whatsoever in what you have published above, that it is totally based on rumour? Yet you see fit to repeat the rumour, and do everything possible to ensure that they are publicised. 

So you start or repeat rumours which have no basis in fact, then you accuse the subject of those rumours of not doing anything to quell those rumours.

What kind of warped thinking is that?





paul o b said:


> *they knew people were on a high with the expectation of a life changing amount it was only after we signed up to esop that they drew our attention to the fact we could not exceed 12,700 in any one year*



Where is your evidence to show that the ESOP Board knew that people were expecting a single life-changing amount? You _*know*_ that that was not possible without incurring massive tax liabilities for participants. 

You are again accusing the ESOP of withholding relevant information from Participants and acting in a totally reprehensible fashion in regard to the annual allocations, and *you also know* that this is completely false and untrue.





paul o b said:


> *in addition to that there was a perception that the esop board were to be ELECTED  to office on an anual basis ,*



Source for this perception please?




paul o b said:


> *finally it is my recolection that regular meetings would take place between esop members, and the esop board , this has not happened in fact i cannot remember the last time such a meeting took place if at all . are they afraid awkward questions may be asked ?*



Again, name or show documentary evidence for this.

Can I say finally, it appears that you were involved in some way as a Union Rep prior to leaving eircom. Just got that from previous posts.

I am very glad that you did not represent me, if the foregoing is any example as to how you handled the business of representing the members.


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## penpusher

Here we go again. More bitching and backbiting. I really couldn't care less what happens to eircom at this stage but am tied to this bumbling dinosaur because of the esop. I want my money and I want out. In fact, I need my money. Can someone offer a ray of hope in this regard?


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## Burman

I need the money too and I also want out. When will this Happen?


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## twinnie

Here here guys i too want my money NOW and i also want OUT of this will we or wont we charade i am sick and tired of it all at this stage


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## ph3n0m

yeah would be nice, I was planning on using my next payment to clear debts, so I could start looking at buying my own place

Guess that plan is on hold until esop make an announcement - whenever that might happen


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## jimmerjam

I heard yesterday we are getting a cheque the end of Feb, ppl are saying its 10k for full allocations.


The person who mentioned this always gets good info, but as per usual we will have to wait and see .


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## ph3n0m

jimmerjam said:


> I heard yesterday we are getting a cheque the end of Feb, ppl are saying its 10k for full allocations.
> 
> 
> The person who mentioned this always gets good info, but as per usual we will have to wait and see .




unfortunately some here have made similiar claims about their sources getting good info and this has proved not to be the case.

However as you said in closing - wait and see - although this seems to be the only option left to some of us ex-eircoms


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## twinnie

The 2010 rumour mill has begun!


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## Leaver

I heard the same as jimmerjam. This same person who said this to me also told me much earlier on that there was definitely no payout at Xmas. I just chose not to believe him at the time.


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## dr1nky

I think I'll hibrinate until June and resurface after all my nuts and berries are gone -HOPEFULLY by this stage, I'll have a big novelty cheque from ESOP waiting for me to buy more nuts and berries....















.....ahhh, what a wonderful dream I was having!


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## paul o b

i think if it is the case where esop have to invest funds if a buyer is not found for 18 months and i believe that is the case , then i would say there is NO  possibility of a payout any time soon . look at it this way if you believe [as i do ] that their stratagy all along has been to prolong the life of esop to keep themselves in a job , they wont be rushing out to find a buyer what better way to do that then making sure they DONT  find a buyer for the 15 % or whatever amount it is


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## doughnut

i don't think so , new eircom will be pushing for a third party,which will be   a good thing for us.


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## horse7

lots of rumers coming in.the big one being three drops of 10,000euros this year.


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## hopalong

i mean rumours


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## jdwex

...


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## neonitrix

horse7 said:


> lots of rumers coming in.the big one being three drops of 10,000euros this year.


 

i would doubt that would happen as all the way along they have kept esop members out of the tax loophole if 3 x 10,000 was to happen you would loose alot to tax.


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## paul o b

wrong there neonitrix . there is a provision whereby they can make a once off payment of up to 36k in any year after year 10 . year 10 came and went last year , in fact , and no such payment was forthcoming . the option to do this still remains . the problem is that it is highly unlikley that anything like that amount of money remains in the esop


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## ph3n0m

I love Rumours - great Fleetwood Mac album - oh wait we still talking about ESOP  well I heard a magical fairy will appear before us all, while we sleep and tell us that the next payout might be February, or March, or April, or May, etc, etc


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## thescratcher

hi all
im new to the forum so dont shoot me if i ask something stupid /so  here goes,
as particapants of esop are we entitled to notification of end of year results/reports etc and if so who signs off same.


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## ex-union

Hello scratcher,
ESOP don't have shareholders meetings(never did)any info is given in the esop booklets you recieve,our reps are put there by the unions and if a rep stands down he is automatically replaced by the unions.If the company don't get an investor within the next 18 months the esop will have to buy another 15% of the company. Got this info in reply to an e mail sent to esop.When asked about a payout in the near future the answer was, no decision has been made about any future payments.
Hope this is of some help in answer to your comments.


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## thescratcher

thank you EX UNION,
I get what you are saying that the unions appoint reps to the board and in turn these REPS would report back to their unions surely then these REPS are answerable to the participants of ESOP .                       (WOULD YOU AGREE ON THIS)
Regarding financial accounts etc who would sign off on these//THE UNION OR ?.


I AM A MEMBER OF A GOLF CLUB/SOCCER CLUB /CREDIT UNION/GOLF SOCIETY ALL OF WHICH REPORT BACK TO THEIR MEMBERS YEARLY ON THEIR ACTIVITIES, I FEEL THAT THE GROUP OF UNIONS SHOULD INSTRUCT THESE REPS TO REPORT AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY SIT ON SUCH BOARDS AND AS TO THE AGENDA THEY HAVE.


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## luckylou

Now that the sale IS complete with STT (and has been for a number of weeks)...I would have taught ESOP would have at least posted the information on the website. 

Has anyone more info on a payout this year. I'm broke!!!


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## paul o b

the scratcher the old boys network is alive and well , you know , jobs for the boys when they finish in eircom . their function is to find a way to prolong the life of esop to keep themselves in a job


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## JerTheGrinch

Look I need my job lads, so I'll be giving no payouts this year either

Jerome B


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## thescratcher

P o b
_im not quite sure on that, information is scarce regarding esop employees-_
_perhaps as esop is part of eircom they would be employed by eircom as such, this brings me to my earlier question of an annual report.???? _


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## IrlJidel

horse7 said:


> lots of rumers coming in.the big one being three drops of 10,000euros this year.



I don't think this is possible. Last time I tried to work it out, the esop only have about 150M in reasonably liquid assets. ( ~ E100M in preference shares & ~ E50M in vodafone shares ).  They still hold 35% of course but that cant be easy changed into cash even if it was worth something.

Based on previous payouts that equates to about 15k for each esop member with a full allocation. Kitty is empty after that.


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## luckylou

Well I say empty that kitty!


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## brasstax

Hi my understanding is that there is about 15K per person in the Kitty so 3*10 is unlikely. Also, it is rumoured that STT will invest 500m and ESOP is being asked to contribute 35%. Also, our union rep told us today that no payout will released until late 2011. But thats just todays rumour!. LuckyLou, keep the faith.


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## penpusher

JerTheGrinch said:


> Look I need my job lads, so I'll be giving no payouts this year either
> 
> Jerome B


 
Ah now Jerome, I don't think you have many worries on the employment front considering your talent for running with the fox and chasing with the hounds.....

http://siliconrepublic.com/news/article/14952/business/new-eircom-board-announced


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## JerTheGrinch

penpusher said:


> Ah now Jerome, I don't think you have many worries on the employment front considering your talent for running with the fox and chasing with the hounds.....
> 
> http://siliconrepublic.com/news/article/14952/business/new-eircom-board-announced



Thanks for that, but you know this country, enough is never enough



brasstax said:


> Hi my understanding is that there is about 15K per person in the Kitty so 3*10 is unlikely. Also, it is rumoured that STT will invest 500m and ESOP is being asked to contribute 35%. Also, our union rep told us today that no payout will released until late 2011. But thats just todays rumour!. LuckyLou, keep the faith.



On a serious note.... 

Very convenient STT want to invest 500m and ESOP will have to stump up 35% ( as 35% shareholders that it what would be expected )........

When the general consensus ESOP has about 150m hanging around............. 

Bye Bye €€€€€€

No more payouts


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## paul o b

sure how could they keep themselves in employment if they were to give you your money ?


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## thescratcher

pob
years ago eircom was worth in the region of 6b now it owes3-4b if my sums are right where did the sum of 9-10b go,
the cwu represented the workers they appointed reps to the board and bingo they must have seen what was happening, ASSET STRIPPING.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CAMPAIGN OF THE CWU RE "FAT CATS"
                I REST MY CASE.


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## thescratcher

3rd week feb?


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## penpusher

thescratcher said:


> 3rd week feb?


 
Do you mean we will be getting some dosh in the 3rd week of Feb? Oh, I do hope it's true.........


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## dr1nky

I heard that the ESOP Board had a meeting on Friday to decide what's gonna happen  ...with a bit of luck there might be some info on that then next week. 
Some good news would be nice!


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## Brendan Burgess

This thread requires too much moderation. We are constantly warning people for posting bad language and rubbish.


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## Brendan Burgess

Folks

This conversation is being continued here.

Brendan


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