# Good Irish Times piece about walkers in cycle lanes



## Brendan Burgess (19 Apr 2014)

Olivia Kelly has shot a nice video here of the problems of cycling on the cycle lane in the Phoenix Park.  Despite the wonderful footpaths for pedestrians, they insist on walking in the cycle lane.

[broken link removed]

She films it with a Dublin Bike at a leisurely pace, but try cycling it at ordinary commuting speed or on a racer.  It's very dangerous.  

It's the same on the cycle path out to Howth. 

I hadn't realised that the cycle path law was changed in 2012. Up to then it was illegal to cycle on the road where there was a cycle path, but now it's not.


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## MrEarl (19 Apr 2014)

Pedestrians in cycle lanes, cyclists on footpaths - the system is far from perfect.

While I support the concept of having cycle lanes we've a few key problems with the current arrangements in my view which need to be attended to:

- The cycle lanes have been done on the cheap and are not safe, we should have more than just white lines painted on roads to help divide cyclists from the motor vehicles, with a simple concrete divide the solution in my view.

- The cyclists continue to be unregulated & some regularly break the rules of the road, often putting lives in danger.  No doubt some of you have read my comments on this elsewhere, so I won't go any further on this thread for now

Whatever about the more rural regions of Ireland, the cities are quite small compared with many other European locations so it should not be a big deal to put things right.  Thereafter, I would imagine a lot more people would cycle, given both the potential for physical exercise and the potential to save money while commuting to work etc.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Apr 2014)

Olivia covers these points in a longer article 

*Cycling in Dublin: The next stage*


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## markpb (19 Apr 2014)

MrEarl said:


> The cyclists continue to be unregulated & some regularly break the rules of the road, often putting lives in danger.  No doubt some of you have read my comments on this elsewhere, so I won't go any further on this thread for now



I don't understand why people keep bringing this up in cycling infrastructure threads (both here and elsewhere). It's a singularly childish attitude - some cyclists don't behave properly so I'd like to punish all cyclists and all prospective cyclists by keeping nice things from them. 

Some motorists speed so we maybe we shouldn't have added an extra lane to the M50 or built new motorways. Some pedestrians cross the road without waiting for a green light so maybe we should stop building footpaths for them? Hell, some people living in Ireland break the law so maybe we should cancel bank holidays for everyone? Of course not, they're all daft suggestions and so is mentioning misbehaving cyclists in a thread about cycle lanes.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Apr 2014)

markpb said:


> I don't understand why people keep bringing this up in cycling infrastructure threads (both here and elsewhere). .



Agreed. The Irish Times article helps to explain it: 



> In Dublin there is a good deal of hostility towards  cyclists. “This doesn’t exist in European cities where there are far  more cyclists. In terms of relations between cyclists and other road  users, it’s time to grow up.”       The Dublin city engineer and director of  traffic, Michael Phillips, agrees that there is a certain hostility from  pedestrians and motorists towards cyclists in the city.
> 
> 
> “There is a lot of anger out there at the moment towards cyclists and a feeling that they are not paying due respect.”


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## Deiseblue (20 Apr 2014)

Walking from Castleknock on the left hand side towards the gates is quite exciting.

The amount of cyclists who use this path both entering & leaving the park as a matter of course is phenomenal , you can at least see those approaching you but the real excitement is on a dark winter morning when the only warning you get from a cyclist approaching your rear is a sudden " whoosh "

Gets the adrenaline pumping I can tell you & gets the vocal chords up & running as well !


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## markpb (20 Apr 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> Walking from Castleknock on the left hand side towards the gates is quite exciting.
> 
> The amount of cyclists who use this path both entering & leaving the park as a matter of course is phenomenal , you can at least see those approaching you but the real excitement is on a dark winter morning when the only warning you get from a cyclist approaching your rear is a sudden " whoosh "
> 
> Gets the adrenaline pumping I can tell you & gets the vocal chords up & running as well !



More off-topic, anti-cyclist ranting. What is it about these threads, do you guys read the articles or do you just see the word cycle in the title and automatically jump in with some irrelevant cycle rant?


I nearly get run over every day by motorists running the pedestrian lights at the m50 exit to Sandyford. I'm sure that's relevant too.


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## Deiseblue (20 Apr 2014)

As a pedestrian I have rarely found myself in a difficult situation with motorised traffic.

Unfortunately that stretch of footpath from Castleknock is populated by cyclists who have no reason to be there thus making it dangerous - under no circumstances should that comment be construed as a " rant " 

Equally pedestrians should not be on the cycling lane .


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## MugsGame (20 Apr 2014)

I disagree with the video that the Phoenix Park cycle lane is well designed and that the pedestrians using the cycle lane are solely at fault. It's better than an on-road path, as cyclists are segregated from motorised traffic. 

At some points the footpath is divided into a cycling lane and a walking lane. But pedestrians are not used to segregating themselves from other traffic based solely on a white line. They expect a kerb or level change, or at least, very clear signage. Pedestrians are also not conditioned to expect bikes moving at speed in such close proximity. The footpath is not wide enough to be safely divided in this way! As shown in the video, there are lamps in the walking lane, meaning there are points where two pedestrians can't fit abreast (or pass each other) in the walking lane. And which lane should wheelchair users be in? How would a blind person know which lane was which?

Even where a separate path has been dedicated to bicycles, it's possible for a pedestrian to innocently enter the cycle lane completely unaware they are doing so, by exiting their parked car or by crossing the road. The video also shows benches sited in such a way that they place occupants legs in the cycle lane.


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## RainyDay (20 Apr 2014)

Would have been really interesting if they had interviewed some of the walkers in the cycle lanes and asked them;

 - did you know it was a cycle lane?
- did you see the signs?
- did you notice the bikes?
- did you notice the other path with lots of people on it?

Just to try to identify the root cause....


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## Janet (20 Apr 2014)

I didn't notice any bikes in the bike lane using bells to try and get the pedestrians to move out of the way. Does anyone ever try that? Would it even work in Ireland? It's mandatory here in Germany to have a functioning bell and people are _not_ shy about using them if you stray into the bike part of a double use path.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Apr 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Olivia Kelly has shot a nice video here of the problems of cycling on the cycle lane in the Phoenix Park.  Despite the wonderful footpaths for pedestrians, they insist on walking in the cycle lane.
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> She films it with a Dublin Bike at a leisurely pace, but try cycling it at ordinary commuting speed or on a racer.  It's very dangerous. ...



I commute on a bike in the park a decent amount. I'm guessing that wasn't shot at normal commuting times, or day. Looks like a warm sunny day when the park is very busy. 

Normally people just move out of your way when you ring a bell. It normally not a big deal. It mainly only hassle if its a fine day on a summers evening, as you get loads of extra people in the park and on the cycle path. 

If driving a car and there's loads of pedestrians around, you slow down accordingly. Should be the same on the bike. There no excuse for reckless speeds when there's load of pedestrians around. If you want to go fast on your bike. Use the road. Its far more suitable place. That's just common sense. If your on the cycle path going fast (and many do) and there loads of pedestrians, you're an idiot.

There been no surface on the section at parkgate street for like 2yrs now. Its like riding cobble. Seriously can they not fix that.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Apr 2014)

Janet said:


> I didn't notice any bikes in the bike lane using bells to try and get the pedestrians to move out of the way. Does anyone ever try that? Would it even work in Ireland? It's mandatory here in Germany to have a functioning bell and people are _not_ shy about using them if you stray into the bike part of a double use path.



Works really well for me about 90% of the time.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Apr 2014)

RainyDay said:


> Would have been really interesting if they had interviewed some of the walkers in the cycle lanes and asked them;
> 
> - did you know it was a cycle lane?
> - did you see the signs?
> ...



I'd guess the main part is obvious. Its beside where they park. The cycle lane should be the one further in (if they improve the surface). But that makes rejoining and crossing roads a little bit more tricky.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Apr 2014)

Deiseblue said:


> Walking from Castleknock on the left hand side towards the gates is quite exciting.
> 
> The amount of cyclists who use this path both entering & leaving the park as a matter of course is phenomenal , you can at least see those approaching you but the real excitement is on a dark winter morning when the only warning you get from a cyclist approaching your rear is a sudden " whoosh "
> 
> Gets the adrenaline pumping I can tell you & gets the vocal chords up & running as well !



Poor design. They should put a kissing gate and that would stop that. 

Cyclists should merge in line with cars as the gate is too narrow for a cyclist to fit along side a car. The gate should really be widened (for cyclists). Of have a sign for cyclist to merge in line with cars. Many cyclists are conditioned to stay left. So merging in line, centre of lane doesn't feel right, when you're bombarded by the media and populist opinion (of non cyclists) to stay left. But merging inline, centre lane its the right way to do this, and the roundabouts. IMO. 

The on and off ramps into the road here are severe and sharp for a cyclist. They should less steep and longer, as currently its an awkward turn on/off the road, staying on the path seems to make more sense. Even though its wrong. Its also why some stay on the road.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Apr 2014)

AlbacoreA said:


> Normally people just move out of your way when you ring a bell. It normally not a big deal. It mainly only hassle if its a fine day on a summers evening, as you get loads of extra people in the park and on the cycle path.
> 
> If driving a car and there's loads of pedestrians around, you slow down accordingly. Should be the same on the bike. There no excuse for reckless speeds when there's load of pedestrians around.



When I drive my car, I don't come across people walking in the middle of the road in front of me wearing headphones.  Or pushing prams.  It just does not happen. I don't have to slow down in my car for pedestrians except approaching traffic lights where they can easily jump out suddenly. 

Likewise, in a cycle lane, I should not have to slow down to accommodate people who should not be there. 



> [tinkling my bell] Works really well for me about 90% of the time.



I really don't see why one should have to ring the bell, but it works a lot less than 90% for me. Some do get out of the way.  Many are wearing headphones.   Many become aggressive and stubbornly stay in the path.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Apr 2014)

in the city centre you get people walking on the road all the  time. Especially at peak. You've never seen this? Seriously?


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## markpb (21 Apr 2014)

AlbacoreA said:


> I'd guess the main part is obvious. Its beside where they park. The cycle lane should be the one further in (if they improve the surface). But that makes rejoining and crossing roads a little bit more tricky.



This is the main problem in the park. Everyone assumes the black path beside the road is a footpath because the design does nothing to show otherwise.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Apr 2014)

there are painted signs but the layout and design means people don't expect it where it is. The pedestrian path isn't well signed either. And any parking has to cross and start from the cycle path.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Apr 2014)

AlbacoreA said:


> in the city centre you get people walking on the road all the  time. Especially at peak. You've never seen this? Seriously?



Where does this happen? 

At busy pedestrian lights, they sometimes spill out onto the road waiting to cross - I slow down on my bike or speed up and shout at them.

Occasionally, if I am cycling out along Nassau Street I would be wary that a pedestrian might step out onto the road to get past someone, but they don't amble along in the middle of the road. 

I have just come back from a cycle along the Pigeon House Road and two women just walked into the road in front of me on my bike. They didn't hear a car, so they just walked off the footpath to cross the road without looking around. 

I saw a woman on Lansdowne Road recently walking along the road during the daytime. I was concerned about her and considered calling the Gardai. But she ended up on the footpath, so maybe she was ok.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Apr 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> ..I really don't see why one should have to ring the bell, but it works a lot less than 90% for me. Some do get out of the way.  Many are wearing headphones.   Many become aggressive and stubbornly stay in the path.



Maybe people are happier in the Phoenix Park. Also we have the option of going around them on the grass which you don't have. Thought that can backfire if its wet.

That said as the weather improves its gets worse in the park. In the mornings and the winter in generally you don't get as many in the park at commuting times. Summer evening is the worst. But then its tricky to cycle and hold a ice cream cone at the same time.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Apr 2014)

My route is through the city centre, or up the canal. Probably the heaviest pedestrian parts of the city, and at peak time. There are pedestrians everywhere, they just cross whenever, quite often without looking. The park seems a "walk in the park" after that.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Apr 2014)

AlbacoreA said:


> My route is through the city centre, or up the canal. Probably the heaviest pedestrian parts of the city, and at peak time. There are pedestrians everywhere, they just cross whenever, quite often without looking. The park seems a "walk in the park" after that.



Are you cycling or driving? 

There are two separate issues here.  I have not seen pedestrians walking in the middle of the road in the same direction as traffic.   They do this in bike lanes all the time. 

We are agreed that pedestrians do step out in front of oncoming traffic to cross the road.   I suspect that they do this far more often in the path of silent cyclists than noisy cars. But that is not the point. The point is that pedestrians walk along cycle lanes blocking oncoming bikes whereas they don't walk along roads blocking oncoming cars.


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## AlbacoreA (21 Apr 2014)

Both. There's pedestrians all over the place. Between cars, jaywalking, etc. Especially if near pedestrianized areas. 

The point is the design and layout in the park means there is ALWAYS going to pedestrians on it, as they have to cross it, at a minimum. On a sunny day thats going to a big numbers of people crossing that path. The sheer numbers means some will start walking on it. 

Going fast on such a path is reckless and dangerous.


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