# Mick Wallace underpayment of VAT



## DB74 (7 Jun 2012)

I see Mick Wallace *knowingly* underdeclared VAT to Revenue to the tune of €1.4m and now has admitted that it is unlikely that the money will ever be paid to Revenue as his company is insolvent

He is quoted as saying:

“Even though it was illegal, I thought it was the right thing to do.”

Surely there must be some mechanism whereby he can be excluded from the Dail for a fraud like this?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0607/wallace-confirms-2-1m-settlement-with-revenue.html


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## DB74 (7 Jun 2012)

I wonder how many years he will get in prison for deliberately defrauding the State of €1.4m

Can't be much less than the 6 years for the man who deliberately defrauded the State of €1.6m in underdeclared import duty on garlic


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## DerKaiser (7 Jun 2012)

Why is he even still in the Dail, it's pretty clear he is bankrupt. He should have the book thrown at him at this stage, I never liked his whinging about the state of the country when it was him and his ilk that was part of the very root cause of the problem 

If you were to list the top 1% of people culpable for the state the country is in, he'd be in it.


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## bullbars (7 Jun 2012)

But sure didn't he do a great job with the soccer lads below in Wexford! 

Akin to P.Flynn/Mick Lowry/ Bertie - Ask anyone from their parishes, won't have a bad word said against them.


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## Sunny (7 Jun 2012)

Once again, Ireland shows itself to be completely incompetent when dealing with white collar crime. The guy should be arrested and stuck in Mountjoy jail for tax evasion. Why isn't Revenue prosecuting? Has it something to do with the fact that it is the Limited Company that owes the VAT and not Mick Wallace himself? The only punishment he is likely to get is to be told he can't be a company director anymore. Boo Hoo........


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## allie12 (7 Jun 2012)

He should be straight out of the Dail- if they allowhim to stay then it is basically highlighting that there is no difference between any of the governments! 

We as a people should demand it!


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## Purple (7 Jun 2012)

The government can't get rid of him.
He should resign but he won't because that would require personal integrity and honour.


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## cork (7 Jun 2012)

Members of his technical group are all pretty silent.

VAT Fraud is illegal.

Wallance is a disgrace.


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## thedaras (7 Jun 2012)

Purple : 





> He should resign but he wont because that would require personal integrity and honour.


Plus 1..

He broke the law and admitted he knew exactly what he was doing . He should resign..
It should be noted that the garlic man paid every penny and got an eight year jail sentence.
Im sure he wont be too bothered as he heads off to the euros!


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## Shawady (7 Jun 2012)

Sunny said:


> The guy should be arrested and stuck in Mountjoy jail for tax evasion. Why isn't Revenue prosecuting?


 
Just heard someone on the radio this morning say that the fact that he has made a settlement already means he is unlikely to face prosecution.

Regards leaving the Dail, i think the only criteria that would force him to resign is bankruptcy or a prison term.


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## Sunny (7 Jun 2012)

Shawady said:


> Just heard someone on the radio this morning say that the fact that he has made a settlement already means he is unlikely to face prosecution.
> 
> Regards leaving the Dail, i think the only criteria that would force him to resign is bankruptcy or a prison term.


 
Only problem is that the settlement is with an insolvent company. The guy in the Garlic case paid back about 700k out of a 1.4m tax bill if I remember correctly but still got 6 years in jail. Mick Wallace is allowed to sit in our Parliment and pass legislation. Go figure!


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## thedaras (7 Jun 2012)

Shawady, when you say "the fact that he has made a settlement",,it should be noted that it is just that..the term settlement seems to imply that he actually paid something,when he hasnt paid any of that money..(as Im sure you know,but just to highlight it in case people think he actually paid up!)


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

There is a huge distinction between what Wallace did and what Begley did in the garlic importing case.

Wallace DELAYED declaring and paying tax, whereas Begley fraudulently EVADED it, with no intention of ever paying it.

That in no way excuses Wallace's actions, but I don't think People who are drawing comparisons actually realise how different, both legally (from a prosecutable perspective) and ethically (Begley's motive was greed, Wallace's was to try to keep a business afloat and dozens of jobs intact).


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## Sunny (7 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> There is a huge distinction between what Wallace did and what Begley did in the garlic importing case.
> 
> Wallace DELAYED declaring and paying tax, whereas Begley fraudulently EVADED it, with no intention of ever paying it.


 
What???

And you know Wallace was only delaying payment because he says so. Is that it?

I am broke at the moment and would love to delay paying tax until I get myself back on my feet again. Is that ok with you?

This Country continues to amaze me when it comes to peoples attitudes to politicans and wrongdoing.


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## thedaras (7 Jun 2012)

So by" EVADING" you get jailed and pay back, and by "DELAYING" you eh eh..oh yeah ..pay nothing and get a stay out of jail card..
There a lesson in there!


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## Purple (7 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> There is a huge distinction between what Wallace did and what Begley did in the garlic importing case.
> 
> Wallace DELAYED declaring and paying tax, whereas Begley fraudulently EVADED it, with no intention of ever paying it.
> 
> That in no way excuses Wallace's actions, but I don't think People who are drawing comparisons actually realise how different, both legally (from a prosecutable perspective) and ethically (Begley's motive was greed, Wallace's was to try to keep a business afloat and dozens of jobs intact).


 
Not true. Wallace made a false VAT return. He is now saying, after he was caught, that he was going to pay the money in full at a later date if things worked out for him. 
Yea, sure he was. 

All that can be said for certain is that he defrauded the people of Ireland by well over a million euro. To use the same sort of emotive language that he’s so fond of using that’s a million euro worth of hospital queues, a million euro worth of cuts to carers, a million euro worth of special needs assistants etc.


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## Sunny (7 Jun 2012)

Purple said:


> All that can be said for certain is that he defrauded the people of Ireland by well over a million euro. To use the same sort of emotive language that he’s so fond of using that’s a million euro worth of hospital queues, a million euro worth of cuts to carers, a million euro worth of special needs assistants etc.


 
That's his problem now. Next time he is criticising the Government, they will just throw this back in his face. He is a lame duck politician. Never mind what I would like to call him but this probably isn't the forum.


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

Purple said:


> Not true. Wallace made a false VAT return. He is now saying, after he was caught, that he was going to pay the money in full at a later date if things worked out for him.
> Yea, sure he was.
> 
> All that can be said for certain is that he defrauded the people of Ireland by well over a million euro. To use the same sort of emotive language that he’s so fond of using that’s a million euro worth of hospital queues, a million euro worth of cuts to carers, a million euro worth of special needs assistants etc.



For me, the whole thing rests on whether or not the money was accrued in the company accounts. If it was then it was a delaying tactic, and one that is VERY common, so the people spitting bile here need to realise that.

If it wasn't accrued then that's a different matter...!


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> So by" EVADING" you get jailed and pay back, and by "DELAYING" you eh eh..oh yeah ..pay nothing and get a stay out of jail card..
> There a lesson in there!



By delaying, the company continues to pay wages (and PAYE/PRSI), and attempts to trade its way through its difficulty.

By declaring the company puts itself out of business, and since the main creditor, the bank, has security over company assets, the VAT is never going to be paid anyway.

So the choice for Wallace was, face the music at the time or employ a desperate (and illegal) gamble and hope to trade through. His gamble hasn't paid off. But in reality the exchequer may not have lost out by as much as people here are assuming.


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## DB74 (7 Jun 2012)

How do we know the company paid its PAYE/PRSI in full? RCT too? CIF pension contribs?

For all we know they could have been underdeclared as well. He has prior for this sort of thing.


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

Well the company was audited by Revenue, so you'd imagine they satisfied themselves in relation to the other taxheads (or maybe not!).


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## Purple (7 Jun 2012)

DB74 said:


> How do we know the company paid its PAYE/PRSI in full? RCT too? CIF pension contribs?
> 
> For all we know they could have been underdeclared as well. He has prior for this sort of thing.


Wasn't there an issue with him not paying into his employees pension fund as is required by law?


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

Purple said:


> Wasn't there an issue with him not paying into his employees pension fund as is required by law?


 
Yep, I presume that's what DB74 means by him having prior form: http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1205/wallacem.html

It happened around the same time as the messing with the VAT. 

In my experience from dealing with builders, practically none of them were ever up to date with the CIF pension contributions, even before the crash arrived. But Wallace got headlines because of his profile.

What I see when I look at the whole sorry mess is a guy who was faced with imminent closure of his business and the loss of 50 jobs, and decided to try and defer the problem in the hope that things would recover. They didn't, he gambled and lost, and there should be a penalty for that. He should resign his Dail seat anyway, whatever about any punishments that may be imposed on him.

But to equate his behaviour with that of a guy who over a protracted period of time deliberately lined his own pockets at the expense of the exchequer (not to keep a struggling business afloat, but purely out of greed) is simply hysterical. They are miles apart.

Having said that, if someone can tell me definitively that the VAT wasn't accrued as a creditor on the company's accounts, then I'd have a very different opinion.


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## Sunny (7 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> Having said that, if someone can tell me definitively that the VAT wasn't accrued as a creditor on the company's accounts, then I'd have a very different opinion.


 
Without seeing the accounts, I would like to meet the accountant and auditor who signed off on accounts with VAT accruals on the Balance Sheet for more than two years without any payment or an underpayment being made and no questions asked. I would imagine this was done off the books.


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## thedaras (7 Jun 2012)

Just some background to Mick Wallace:




> I'm no martyr. I am running a business and I make sure it pays its way. I never lost money on a job in my life but I try to run it in an honest fashion."





> He now owns a small vineyard in Italy and hopes to soon sell wine from it in Dublin.





> He also gives temporary accommodation to a Communist Party of Ireland bookshop





> "I wouldn't be as well-off if I worked in a socialist system but I do believe that corporation tax should be higher,"



And this ;


> Some years ago, one of Dublin's biggest builders was given a stark example of this. Wallace did £170,000 worth of work for him but was only paid £150,000, a stunt the powerful builder was well-known for. After six months of legal action, Wallace's solicitor told him it would take two years to get to court and he'd be lucky to get £2,000.
> 
> "So I knew of a guy made a living out of a gun," he says. "I made contact with him and said ‘listen, there's a guy owes me £20,000 - will you get it for me?' He said he would give me £16,000 and keep £4,000."
> 
> "There was a guy working for the builder and I deliberately went for a pint with him," continues Wallace. "‘Did you hear I'm getting the money out of your boss?' I said to him. ‘I hired a hitman and he's going to get it. Don't tell anyone now.' Next day I got a phone call from the managing director. ‘Mr Wallace,' he says, ‘I believe there is a bit of a financial dispute on that job. Can we meet and talk about it?' I met them and they offered me £15,000. I said I'd take £16,000. Of course, I never would have dreamt of actually hiring the hitman. I only used him as leverage but it worked."





> "I had my cap in hand begging the banks for money," he says. "It took me 18 months to get a bank to finance this and five refused me. I expected the AIB to finance it because I had a great relationship with them in Wexford for 15 years. I was brought into AIB headquarters to meet the top boys."





> Back in Ormond Quay, Wallace caresses a huge boardroom table in a plush office lined with rows of fine Italian wine. Despite the plush décor and the sundrenched view of the Millennium Bridge, nothing quite catches the eye like Wallace's bright pink Palermo football jersey.



And here is an article about the pension contributions mentioned by a poster:




> Also yesterday, Mr Wallace's company M&J Wallace, which is in receivership, was prosecuted at Dublin's District Court for allegedly taking workers' pension contributions from their wages but not paying them to the CWPS.





> "I'm wrong to be paying late, but it's because of a dispute over how much is due. The delay is because of a discrepancy over the amount of money involved," he explained.


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## ninsaga (7 Jun 2012)

...and here's the real irony.... he defrauded the state, but the state is paying his TD salary and expenses!.... 

Go figure!


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## DerKaiser (7 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> Having said that, if someone can tell me definitively that the VAT wasn't accrued as a creditor on the company's accounts, then I'd have a very different opinion.


 
"He admits to having knowingly made a false VAT declaration to Revenue"


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## thedaras (7 Jun 2012)

Yes,but he did so in good faith!!

As an aside is  there some law about Company Directors and reckless trading?


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## DerKaiser (7 Jun 2012)

“I always found it curious that the likes of Joan Collins, Clare Daly, Joe Higgins and Richard Boyd Barrett thought nothing of cosying up to a property developer in the Dail, but the fact that Deputy Wallace is now a self-confessed tax cheat must give them real cause to shift uncomfortably in their seats,”
[broken link removed]

Will be interesting to see if the above mentioned and indeed Shane Ross condemn one of their own cronies


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## Sunny (7 Jun 2012)

When you read Mr. Nolans letter in todays Irish times, you begin to see why things like this will always happen.

[broken link removed]


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> Just some background to Mick Wallace:
> http://www.businessandfinance.ie/index.jsp?p=413&n=427&a=2095


 
I can't believe I appear to be defending him, as I don't approve of his shenanigans at all, but seeing as I live in the real world, in an Ireland which is *full* of people who'll chance their arm...:

I can't help but wonder about the naivety of some of the posters on here; it's either naivety or ye are all virtuous beyond all reproach. AAM posters clearly don't make for a representative sample of the general population!



> "I'm no martyr. I am running a business and I make sure it pays its way. I never lost money on a job in my life but I try to run it in an honest fashion."





> He also gives temporary accommodation to a Communist Party of Ireland bookshop


 OK, good to know, I don't really see what either of those bring to light?




> "He now owns a small vineyard in Italy and hopes to soon sell wine from it in Dublin."


 So, that would be what's known in business as diversification then. Also, it says Wallace himself owns it, so unless we're alleging other impropriety on his part, he financed it from his taxed income, at a time when the business was doing well.



> "I wouldn't be as well-off if I worked in a socialist system but I do believe that corporation tax should be higher,"


 OK, that's how he feels about that.



> Some years ago, one of Dublin's biggest builders was given a stark example of this. Wallace did £170,000 worth of work for him but was only paid £150,000, a stunt the powerful builder was well-known for. After six months of legal action, Wallace's solicitor told him it would take two years to get to court and he'd be lucky to get £2,000.
> 
> "So I knew of a guy made a living out of a gun," he says. "I made contact with him and said ‘listen, there's a guy owes me £20,000 - will you get it for me?' He said he would give me £16,000 and keep £4,000."
> 
> "There was a guy working for the builder and I deliberately went for a pint with him," continues Wallace. "‘Did you hear I'm getting the money out of your boss?' I said to him. ‘I hired a hitman and he's going to get it. Don't tell anyone now.' Next day I got a phone call from the managing director. ‘Mr Wallace,' he says, ‘I believe there is a bit of a financial dispute on that job. Can we meet and talk about it?' I met them and they offered me £15,000. I said I'd take £16,000. Of course, I never would have dreamt of actually hiring the hitman. I only used him as leverage but it worked."


 Fair play to him for not lying down and being bullied. I wonder if any small suppliers of Dunnes Stores have ever considered taking out a hit on Margaret... I think the key point is that he didn't actually hire a hitman, but let them think he had, another area where there's a huge distinction.



> "I had my cap in hand begging the banks for money," he says. "It took me 18 months to get a bank to finance this and five refused me. I expected the AIB to finance it because I had a great relationship with them in Wexford for 15 years. I was brought into AIB headquarters to meet the top boys."


 Hmmm big whoop-dee-do: "Bank executives meet businessman customer" - shocking headline! 



> Back in Ormond Quay, Wallace caresses a huge boardroom table in a plush office lined with rows of fine Italian wine. Despite the plush décor and the sundrenched view of the Millennium Bridge, nothing quite catches the eye like Wallace's bright pink Palermo football jersey.


 Yep, wasn't he doing well, like so many other businesses in a country that was booming... unless you're saying he bought all this stuff while things were going down the swanny then you can hardly say you find it surprising that he had a plush office, when his company was making millions in profits?

And I can't bothered quoting my own link from earlier - he says he was in dispute over the amount owed. Hands up anyone who has ever dug their heels in with a supplier or other party with whom they were in dispute over payment...


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

Sunny said:


> When you read Mr. Nolans letter in todays Irish times, you begin to see why things like this will always happen.
> 
> [broken link removed]


 
So, what, you're comparing Mick to Charlie Haughey?

Or just commenting on the crazy attitude of Mr Nolan?


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## Sunny (7 Jun 2012)

I don't think you can accuse other people of being naive when you are saying that he probably meant to pay the VAT eventually and accrued the liability on the company's balance sheet. As I said earlier, what accountant or auditor allowed a VAT liability to be put on the balance sheet for a couple years, see no payment or a large underpayment and then signs off on the accounts? Do you really believe he avoided VAT but kept his accounts true and fair?


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## Sunny (7 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> So, what, you're comparing Mick to Charlie Haughey?
> 
> Or just commenting on the crazy attitude of Mr Nolan?



Commenting on peoples attitudes to politicians who are caught doing something wrong. Never a shortage of people who will defend them no matter what. People are already saying 'poor Mick was nothing but a hard working businessman who was a victim of the evil banks'.


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

Sunny said:


> I don't think you can accuse other people of being naive when you are saying that he probably meant to pay the VAT eventually and accrued the liability on the company's balance sheet. As I said earlier, what accountant or auditor allowed a VAT liability to be put on the balance sheet for a couple years, see no payment or a large underpayment and then signs off on the accounts? Do you really believe he avoided VAT but kept his accounts true and fair?



And you've just proven my point, because I see audited accounts across my desk everyday, and I've seen cases identical to what I've described. So no, I'm not naive, I stand over what I said.


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## Sunny (7 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> And you've just proven my point, because I see audited accounts across my desk everyday, and I've seen cases identical to what I've described. So no, I'm not naive, I stand over what I said.



So you have seen audited accounts everyday showing a company is deliberately not paying or under paying VAT because they cant afford it for a prolonged period of time with no note to the financial statements or comment from the auditor? And these companies are simply sticking an accrual on the balance sheet?

Must make audits very easy for Revenue. Just ask for the balance sheet of every company and the avoidance of tax is there in black and white.


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## oldnick (7 Jun 2012)

Owning a small business for 3oyrs+ my wife and I would go into paroxyms of anxiety if we were tardy in submitting accounts, if we thought we'd erred in any Corp tax, PAYE, Vat,breached any Health and Safety rule, Travel Trade rules and regulations  and a myriad other public laws.

We lost money in the last couple of years -traded badly and eventually closed the business with not a penny more than we put into it. 
Our average earnings over 30 years were, each of us, little more than the average industrial income- half  that amount in the last year.

When we closed the business we made sure that employees, creditors, Revenue/VAT were fully paid inc. redundancy. 

Did we behave like this because we're idiots, cowards or because we're not Irish ?


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## thedaras (7 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> > I can't believe I appear to be defending him, as I don't approve of his shenanigans at all, but seeing as I live in the real world, in an Ireland which is *full* of people who'll chance their arm...:
> 
> 
> You are coming across as defending him,which may not be intentional.
> ...


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

Sunny said:


> So you have seen audited accounts everyday showing a company is deliberately not paying or under paying VAT because they cant afford it for a prolonged period of time with no note to the financial statements or comment from the auditor? And these companies are simply sticking an accrual on the balance sheet?


No, I didn't say I see it every day! But I have seen it plenty of times, to varying degrees, in the  If the VAT is accrued as part of the outstanding VAT creditor then the accounts are true and fair. It's only if the VAT isn't disclosed that the accounts may not be true and fair.



Sunny said:


> Must make audits very easy for Revenue. Just ask for the balance sheet of every company and the avoidance of tax is there in black and white.


Who are you telling 
And that's why Revenue have been running campaigns in various districts in recent years doing just that (not as an audit but an aspect query).


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> You are coming across as defending him,which may not be intentional.
> Just because we have an Ireland which is full of people who will chance their arms,does not make a discussion of the Mick Wallace issue irrelevant.


 Oh I'm not saying that we shouldn't be discussing it - I'm really just trying to play devil's advocate here, and point out that the comparisons between him and Paul Begley are a bit wide of the mark.



thedaras said:


> Id say you are very wrong there, as I have been on several other sites and listening to radio and Tv and social media and the majority are against this type of behaviour.
> You clearly think posters are naive and virtuous when they discuss an issue which is in the public domain,and is being discussed all over the media,I don't see what your problem is,if its that you dont like what your reading ,then dont read the posts,because that is how people feel and if you don't like it or choose to call us naive and virtuous perhaps start a new thread,like " say nothing about anyone,because everyone else is at it"!


 Well obviously anyone talking in the mainstream media are going to be spitting vitriol (regardless of whether they actually couldn't care less), it's grist to their mill!
Maybe we can come back here next week when the list is published and have a look at some of the other people who have big settlements against their names, and condemn them as well. We might have people who occupied positions of trust or responsibility, and we can single them out for special condemnation...



thedaras said:


> Quite frankly what you have said above is a disgrace! Threatening people is not an answer,and next thing you know sure the milk man/mortgage providers/white van man/suppliers will be threatening to knee cap the customers who dont pay up,and then say "Only messing!!


The subtlety of the thing is going over your head! He never threatened anyone; he merely made a suggestion to someone, whom he was fairly sure would repeat the story. The power of suggestion...!



thedaras said:


> mandlebrot:
> Are you saying that what Mick Wallace did is the norm? *Not the norm but it happens.*
> Are you also saying that ,even though its illegal,that its happening everyday? *Again, it's not the norm, but I'd say at a very rough guess that at least 5% of companies have accrued undeclared taxes on their balance sheets, of varying levels of materiality.*
> You say they cross your desk everyday, so you are aware of this type of trading?  Are you obliged to report something like this when you know and have evidence that something illegal is being done? *You don't know what my job is, or in what capacity I'm looking at these things! I don't necessarily see a M&J Wallace situation everyday, but it does crop up.*
> If something crossed my desk everyday which I knew was someone chancing their arm,I would at the least feel obliged to report it.And if in a professional capacity,I would have thought you would be obliged to do the same,if that is the case. *Trust me, I take my job very seriously and I do exactly what I'm supposed to. The fact that I am saying that I don't think what he did was comparable to Begley, doesn't mean that I wouldn't take it very seriously if I came across it.*





thedaras said:


> Either way the fact that you say there are many more doing the same thing,makes it no less illegal.


 Agreed, and I'm not talking about illegality; what I'm suggesting is that a person's motives in doing a thing are always relevant (hence the distinction between manslaughter and murder!), and a majority on here appear to be happy to *assume* the worst of Mick. I'm not even suggesting that I believe his assertion as to his motive. All I'm saying is that I won't be rushing to assume the worst.


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## mandelbrot (7 Jun 2012)

oldnick said:


> Owning a small business for 3oyrs+ my wife and I would go into paroxysms of anxiety if we were tardy in submitting accounts, if we thought we'd erred in any Corp tax, PAYE, Vat,breached any Health and Safety rule, Travel Trade rules and regulations  and a myriad other public laws.
> 
> We lost money in the last couple of years -traded badly and eventually closed the business with not a penny more than we put into it.
> Our average earnings over 30 years were, each of us, little more than the average industrial income- half  that amount in the last year.
> ...



I'd say: Not the first one, maybe a tiny bit of the second one, and a largely the third one! But really, ye were obviously just well brought up, so I say blame the parents...!


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## DerKaiser (7 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> Maybe we can come back here next week when the list is published and have a look at some of the other people who have big settlements against their names, and condemn them as well. We might have people who occupied positions of trust or responsibility, and we can single them out for special condemnation...



Well yeah, there's no way a TD on that list will not get singled out.


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Jun 2012)

I had the same gut  reaction as everyone here when I saw Mick Wallace defending himself on the TV. "Tax evader.  He should resign and he should go to jail. That €2m could be spent on the health service or whatever."

And just to be clear,  I don't like Mick Wallace and tend to turn off the TV when I see him on it. 

But Mandlebrot is making some interesting points which are worth thinking about. 

What Mick Wallace did was wrong and he should resign his Dáil seat. I don't think that anyone disagrees with this. (Apart from Mick Wallace himself) 

But there is a huge difference between what Mick Wallace did and what the garlic guy did. The garlic guy could pay his tax but chose not to. He falsified the accounts and diverted the money to his own use.  By doing what he did, the Revenue got less than they would otherwise have got.

Mick Wallace was in a company which could not pay its tax. It was insolvent. The correct thing for Mick Wallace to do at that stage was to call a creditors' meeting and to wind up the company. 

Instead, he did what many business owners would do in the situation, he tried to trade his way out of it.  Maybe he expected to be able to sell more apartments or  buildings. It was wrong but it is very understandable. 

If he had made a proper VAT return, he would be just declaring a liability and the company simply couldn't pay it. The Revenue has probably not lost out. The Revenue lost out in the garlic man case. 

This is based on the public reports of the case. If it turns out that Mick Wallace evaded paying the Revenue and used the funds for his own benefit, then my views would change ...again. 

Brendan


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## DerKaiser (7 Jun 2012)

I would be interested to see if MJ Wallace Ltd paid Mick Wallace, any of his family members or friends over the 2 year period in which he was underdeclaring VAT.

The only honest thing for him to do now is resign his Dail seat in anticipation of bankruptcy


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## Marion (7 Jun 2012)

> Mick Wallace was in a company which could not pay its tax. It was insolvent. The correct thing for Mick Wallace to do at that stage was to call a creditors' meeting and to wind up the company.



So why didn't he?

He is not _just_ a business owner. 

He has crossed the rubicon. He is now a public representative.

Higher standards are expected and he does not reach these.

Marion


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Jun 2012)

Hi Marion

He should have wound up the company.  People try to keep their businesses afloat hoping that something will pick up. It's wrong, but that's what they do.

He wasn't a public representative at the time of the false Vat declaration. 

But he is now and so he should resign from the Dáil.

Brendan


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## Marion (7 Jun 2012)

> But he is now and so he should resign from the Dáil.



Agreed.

Marion


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## Sunny (8 Jun 2012)

Trying to keep your business afloat is one thing. Putting in fake tax returns is another. If he thought it was purely a cash flow problem or temporary issue, he could have to revenue and come to an arrangement. He didn't do that. He filed a fake tax return and only went to revenue when his limited company was insolvent. It's no different to ordinary people not declaring income to revenue because they are short of cash and don't fancy paying tax. It happens but it is illegal.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2012)

Hi Sunny 

Over the years, I have tried to advise some friends of mine who had businesses which were insolvent. It is very difficult for them to admit failure and to accept that a business which they have worked at for maybe 20 years has failed.  It's a bit like a dying man - they struggle to hang onto life. "Where there is life, there is hope". 

For me, it was fairly easy. The businesses is insolvent and the market is not going to recover any time soon. Stop trading. You could be accused of trading fraudulently.  But they carry on trading until the bank appoints a receiver or a creditor seeks a winding up order.

If I had been advising Mick Wallace, I would have told him that his business was insolvent. It is a terrible pity that a business he has invested so much of his person in over x years is dead. It is a pity that his employees are going to lose their jobs. It is a pity that he will be facing a creditors' meeting. But that is business and he should face up to it. He would probably argue "This stupid country is crippling me - with the big VAT bills, tax bills, and onerous legislation. It's a fine company and if we can just keep the show on the road until the housing market turns, then I will be able to pay all my bills".  I would have strongly advised him to close it down in an honourable fashion but desperate situations call for desperate measures.


 I would have advised Mick Wallace that the key objective now was to make sure that  the collapse of the company would not bring him down personally. However, if the collapse of the company would mean that Mick Wallace would be personally bankrupted due to personal guarantees, his incentive for trying to keep the company alive would be even stronger.

I would stress again, what he did was wrong and he should resign from the Dáil. But what he did was understandable.


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## Purple (8 Jun 2012)

John DeLorean tried to broker a drug sale to save his business. That was also understandable but also illegal.
Mick Wallace is a member of our national legislature. He should work to, and be judged by, higher standards than the rest of us. For me “understandable” doesn’t come into it.


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## Sunny (8 Jun 2012)

Brendan, I have sympathy for anyone whose business fails. I even have sympathy for Mick Wallace. However, there are thousands of struggling small businesses out there that don't file fake tax returns. I don't see why a business should be at a competitive disadvantage to a competitor just because they ensure they are tax compliant. 

I fully accept that businesses fail. I fully accept that owners often struggle to accept this and will continue to look for ways to continue trading when they probably shouldn't. What I don't accept is breaking the law is ever acceptable. On other threads, there are people calling for prosecutions for people who didn't register for the household charge. Mick Wallace is no different. He knowingly broke the tax law of this Country. 

And going by this story, it looks like paying his tax liability wasn't top of his agenda.


----------



## zztop (8 Jun 2012)

And its claimed in one paper he doubled the salaries of himself
ans his son when he was going out of business??Hes also off to
Poznan.What a bunch of crooks...


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2012)

Purple said:


> John DeLorean tried to broker a drug sale to save his business.



Now that you mention it, I actually know of someone else who did this as well.  I had no sympathy for him at all. He was caught on his first trip and served time for it.  It was not in Ireland by the way. 

I was amazed  at the time that his friends had sympathy for him.  My view was that he was ruining lives by acting as a drugs mule.


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## NOAH (8 Jun 2012)

this still applies unfortunately - banana republic - boomtown rats

The purple and the pinstripe
Mutely shake their heads
A silense shrieking volumes
A violence worse than they condemn
Stab you in the back yeah
Laughing in your face
Glad to see the place again
It's a pity nothing's changed


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## Sunny (8 Jun 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Now that you mention it, I actually know of someone else who did this as well. I had no sympathy for him at all. He was caught on his first trip and served time for it. It was not in Ireland by the way.
> 
> I was amazed at the time that his friends had sympathy for him. My view was that he was ruining lives by acting as a drugs mule.


 
You know some interesting people!


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## MrMan (8 Jun 2012)

oldnick said:


> Did we behave like this because we're idiots, cowards or because we're not Irish ?



Because you're not Irish; you see Irish people are corrupt, drink too much, hate the english, don't like working mondays, are good for a laugh, and they are the best fans in the world, and are prone to lazy stereotype.


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## TarfHead (8 Jun 2012)

Supposing Deputy Wallace resigns on principle (don't laugh  !) and stands in the bye-election and is re-elected ?

Would Fintan O'Toole explode  ?


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## thedaras (8 Jun 2012)

Perhaps Brendan and others can take a look at this:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/367149-m-j-wallace-accounts-2008.html
These are the latest filed accounts (2008) for Mick Wallace's M&J Wallace Ltd.
Note page 5 and perhaps 10..


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2012)

TarfHead said:


> Would Fintan O'Toole explode  ?



Every clown has a silver lining!


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## DB74 (8 Jun 2012)

Note 8: - WIP €34m - who in God's name valued this in Apr-2009. If the company became insolvent soon afterwards, this must have been massively overstated, at least double the true value anyway.

Note 10: - Directors' loan only €11K so he certainly wasn't plowing his own money in to save the company. Just mine!

Note 10: - VAT liability just €76K so no €1.4m provision here anyway

Note 16: - Directors' remuneration (only 2 directors) of €289K in y/e 31-Aug-2008, up from €148K the previous 12 months.


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## ClubMan (8 Jun 2012)

To paraphrase _Clare Daly_ on _Morning Ireland _this morning ... "of course I believe that everybody should pay their taxes". Oh the irony/hypocrisy of it...


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## Sunny (8 Jun 2012)

ClubMan said:


> To paraphrase _Clare Daly_ on _Morning Ireland _this morning ... "of course I believe that everybody should pay their taxes". Oh the irony/hypocrisy of it...


 
You know I am beginning to think that we should forgive Mick because of the discomfort he causing the loony left....Great seeing Richard, Joe, Clare and the others squirm in their seats. Who would have thought that a tax evading property developer would be able to make life so difficult for these people.


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## ClubMan (8 Jun 2012)

Purple said:


> John DeLorean tried to broker a drug sale to save his business.


Actually it was the _FBI _who brokered that deal. That's why _DeLorean _was acquitted on the basis of entrapment.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> Perhaps Brendan and others can take a look at this:
> https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/367149-m-j-wallace-accounts-2008.html
> These are the latest filed accounts (2008) for Mick Wallace's M&J Wallace Ltd.
> Note page 5 and perhaps 10..



Thanks for providing the links to the accounts. 

Page 5 is the audit opinion? 

Page 10 is various standard notes? 

I don't see the signficance of either? 

In general, the accounts would suggest that the company is heavily loss making but has net assets. However, as it was dependent on the banks, I would question the value of the assets. So, in effect, it was insolvent. 

Note 10 shows €76,000 due in VAT.  This would _suggest _that it was not just an incorrect VAT return. It would suggest that the accounts were deliberately falsified, understating the the VAT liability. If this is so, I don't know how he could claim that he was just deferring it. He would have to falsify them again in later years to overstate his VAT liability. 

Note 17 showed that they employed 50 people full-time and paid them €2.5m in wages and salaries. 

Note 16 shows that the two directors took salaries of €300,000 between them in 2008. Seems reasonable for a company of this size.


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## DB74 (8 Jun 2012)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Note 16 shows that the two directors took salaries of €300,000 between them in 2008. Seems reasonable for a company of this size.



Directors remuneration doubled from previous year while Gross Profit was 1/4 of the previous year.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2012)

ClubMan said:


> To paraphrase _Clare Daly_ on _Morning Ireland _this morning ... "of course I believe that everybody should pay their taxes". Oh the irony/hypocrisy of it...



I think what she meant was that everybody  should pay their taxes, except for those taxes which they don't like, such as the Household Charge.

Brendan


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## cork (8 Jun 2012)

Many in the media seem to be defending Wallance - with the "those in glass-houses" defence.

If vat fraud was not detected - it is a loss for the state.

THe technical group have little credbility.


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Jun 2012)

Like everyone else, when I first heard this I thought about garlic man.  _Mandie_ has put us right.  That is not a comparable situation.  

But for some reason _Mandie_ has dived into a devil's advocate role which appears to have gone OTT.  She suggests that if I tell A that I have a hitman on B knowing A will tell B then what's the problem?  Overall, the guy in the pink shirt seems to have an awful lot to answer for and so too has the likes of Shane Ross for being palsy walsy with him.


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## mandelbrot (8 Jun 2012)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Like everyone else, when I first heard this I thought about garlic man. _Mandie_ has put us right. That is not a comparable situation.
> 
> But for some reason _Mandie_ has dived into a devil's advocate role which appears to have gone OTT. She suggests that if I tell A that I have a hitman on B knowing A will tell B then what's the problem? Overall, the guy in the pink shirt seems to have an awful lot to answer for and so too has the likes of Shane Ross for being palsy walsy with him.


 
On "mature reflection" I accept that the hitman thing is a bit mad alright Your Grace, but I doubt it's true really (sounds like a bit of a macho story told to try and impress). And in my defence I was feeling ever so put upon at the time. Playing devil's advocate isn't much fun!

The point I was making, and I think Brendan agrees, if no-one else - is that when you look at the context of the thing, rather than just the black and white of it, one can understand how / why Wallace _may_ have done what he did. It in no way excuses it or makes it acceptable, but it puts him in a different category from Mr Begley.

Having said that I do think the punishment in Begley's case was a bit OTT too, but as is often the case (rightly or wrongly), he was made an example of to send out a message.

Now people will say why isn't Wallace prosecuted too, but the facts of the case, and the burden of proof required to convict, may mean that a prosecution is simply not a runner.


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## mandelbrot (8 Jun 2012)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Like everyone else, when I first heard this I thought about garlic man. _Mandie_ has put us right. That is not a comparable situation.
> 
> But for some reason _Mandie_ has dived into a devil's advocate role which appears to have gone OTT. She suggests that if I tell A that I have a hitman on B knowing A will tell B then what's the problem? Overall, the guy in the pink shirt seems to have an awful lot to answer for and so too has the likes of Shane Ross for being palsy walsy with him.


 
Oh yeah, and stop calling me Mandie, I'm not a girl!! (You'll have me paranoid now, wondering if I come across as effeminate!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot


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## Liamos (8 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> Yep, I presume that's what DB74 means by him having prior form: http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1205/wallacem.html
> 
> It happened around the same time as the messing with the VAT.
> 
> ...


 
Now that we have seen Mr Wallace's accounts and they do not show the underpaid VAT accrued for, have you changed your opinion?


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## DB74 (8 Jun 2012)

I don't know where this notion that Begley did what he did out of pure greed comes from


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> Oh yeah, and stop calling me Mandie, I'm not a girl!! (You'll have me paranoid now, wondering if I come across as effeminate!)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot


Sorry No offence intended. To be on the safe side I always ascribe the female gender to anonymous handles, protects me from being dumped upon by the PC set

Dabbling in fractals can have the effect of always seeing the alternative view, but take care not to over indulge


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## mandelbrot (8 Jun 2012)

Liamos said:


> Now that we have seen Mr Wallace's accounts and they do not show the underpaid VAT accrued for, have you changed your opinion?


 
Oh God yes! I can still understand why he did what he did, but the thing that he did now appears to be much worse than I had originally thought... in light of that it seems implausible that he was only intending to defer the liability...

I've had a look at the 2007 accounts as well, and it's hard to see where they could have over 1m of a VAT accrual parked on that Balance Sheet.

I've changed my opinion based on new information that I've become aware of; in fairness I did say clearly that if the VAT wasn't accrued it would change things!


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## thedaras (8 Jun 2012)

Glad to hear that MR mandelbrot..
BTW ,I also thought you were female...why, I have no idea..


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## ajapale (8 Jun 2012)

The discussion which compares Wallace and Garlic Guy is interesting but I think comparing Wallace and Lowery would be more usefull. Both are consumate self publicists and both are public representatives.

At the very least I would expect members of the governing parties to shun Wallace and not to give him any "special" status such as access to mininsters etc.


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## mandelbrot (8 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> Glad to hear that MR mandelbrot..
> BTW ,I also thought you were female...why, I have no idea..


 
Ah ye are all just picking on me now - I shoulda said nothing yesterday morning instead of deciding to play devil's advocate!! 

(Seriously though, it has been an interesting discussion; we should all let off steam more often!)


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## thedaras (8 Jun 2012)

It sure was,and made all the more interesting by your input.
In case you are still convinced that AAM is not representative of society in general, read on:
Joe Duffy did a poll,should Mick Wallace resign:
 A ten minute poll returned the following:
 11,985 YES, 3,549  NO.


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## Sunny (8 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> It sure was,and made all the more interesting by your input.
> In case you are still convinced that AAM is not representative of society in general, read on:
> Joe Duffy did a poll,should Mick Wallace resign:
> A ten minute poll returned the following:
> 11,985 YES, 3,549 NO.


 
Does that mean AAM is representative of the Joe Duffy show


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## mandelbrot (8 Jun 2012)

DB74 said:


> I don't know where this notion that Begley did what he did out of pure greed comes from


 
Do you have an alternative hypothesis? The reports on the case suggested that the business was very successful, which contrasts with the fact that Wallace got caught pulling a stroke at a time when the business was going to the wall.

It certainly looks like he was enjoying a nice lifestyle out of the profits of his fraud:
[broken link removed]
_"The detached house, approached by a long driveway, is nestled in a quiet cul de sac in the western suburbs of Dublin and has stables in the back._
_It has been described as a "state-of-the-art family residence" and "ideally suited to entertaining on a large scale"."_


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## mandelbrot (8 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> It sure was,and made all the more interesting by your input.
> In case you are still convinced that AAM is not representative of society in general, read on:
> Joe Duffy did a poll,should Mick Wallace resign:
> A ten minute poll returned the following:
> 11,985 YES, 3,549 NO.


 
I've no doubt AAM isn't representative - if only because the sample size (of regular posters) is simply too small!

Anyway, I never said he shouldn't resign - in fact I said quite early on in this thread that I thought he should! I'm actually surprised nearly 1/4 of people reckon he shouldn't resign  (they're obviously all the people I was telling you about with VAT accruals on their balance sheets  )


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## thedaras (8 Jun 2012)

Oh hang on a sec, Mick Wallace is not exactly living in poverty..
I think you should have stopped while the going was good.


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## mandelbrot (8 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> Oh hang on a sec, Mick Wallace is not exactly living in poverty..
> I think you should have stopped while the going was good.


 
I just can't help myself 

I never said Wallace was living in poverty! 

I had suggested that the motive behind the offence has to be taken into consideration, and I'm just responding to DB74's question regarding what Begley's motive was, in my opinion and based on the circumstances of Begley's case. If Begley's company had been teetering on the brink, I'd have a lot more sympathy for him too, but I'm pointing out that that wasn't the case.


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## ninsaga (8 Jun 2012)

if he resigns  - is he entitled to a Dail pension?


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2012)

I don't think so. I believe that a TD must serve a certain minimum amount of time e.g. 4 years to qualify. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> It sure was,and made all the more interesting by your input.
> In case you are still convinced that AAM is not representative of society in general, read on:
> Joe Duffy did a poll,should Mick Wallace resign:
> A ten minute poll returned the following:
> 11,985 YES, 3,549  NO.



The Journal.ie has 2713  in favour and 628 against

Similar order - roughly 20 believe he should stay.

I don't think anyone on Askaboutmoney has said that they think that he should not resign.


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## Sunny (8 Jun 2012)

Amazing how all of sudden, these guys don't want to be judge and jury and saying it is up to the electorate as to what happens Mick Wallace. Wonder would they be as charitable if it was a FF or FG TD? You really do leave your convictions on the street when you get elected. 

http://m.rte.ie/news/2012/0608/technical-group-whip-not-asking-wallace-to-quit.html


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## mandelbrot (8 Jun 2012)

DB74 said:


> I don't know where this notion that Begley did what he did out of pure greed comes from


 
Here's a couple of trends from the abridged accounts of Begley Bros Ltd as filed to the CRO:



Year|Directors Fees&Pension|Balance of Directors loans to co|
2002|235,214|116,896|
2003|272,153|26,438|
2004|322,549|125,346|
2005|434,466|1,225,346|
2006|594,106|1,195,346|
2007|574,751|1,164,568| 
2 observations in relation to the figures above:
Firstly, there was a marked upward trend in the level of directors' remuneration from the company in the period that it has been shown the import duty fraud occurred.
Secondly, in 2005 1.1m was introduced into the company by the directors (I'm NOT suggesting anything untoward about the source of the money, but it is an interesting coincidence).


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## DB74 (8 Jun 2012)

According to the Indo, Begley's company as repaying loans to the tune of €33K a month.

http://www.independent.ie/national-...x-years-over-16m-garlic-tax-scam-3045619.html

Also, directors loans to the company increased from €125K in 2004 to €1.2m in 2005. Why would he be loaning the company money if it was as successful as you claim. Who says he didn't fake the import duty to keep his employees in a job?

What's Mick Wallace's house like? I'd be surprised if he lives in a 3-bed semi in an estate in Wexford somewhere

Also Wallace's salary doubled from €148K to €289K between 2007 & 2008. That doesn't sound like someone trying to keep a struggling business afloat. In fact it's more like someone getting what they can out of a dying business before the creditors come knocking.


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## DB74 (8 Jun 2012)

I hope someone does a poll solely on the streets of Wexford, given that Wallace said yesterday that he would decide based on the vibe from Wexford people whether to resign or not


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## ajapale (8 Jun 2012)

ajapale said:


> The discussion which compares *Wallace* and *Garlic Guy* is interesting but I think comparing Wallace and *Lowery* would be more usefull.
> 
> Both are consumate self publicists and both are public representatives.
> 
> At the very least I would expect members of the governing parties to shun Wallace and not to give him any "special" status such as access to mininsters etc.



I think Wallace should be afforded the same treatment as Lowry (continued access to ministers and officials) since both are consumate self publicists and public representatives. Garlic Guy is neither.


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## RonanC (8 Jun 2012)

DB74 said:


> What's Mick Wallace's house like? I'd be surprised if he lives in a 3-bed semi in an estate in Wexford somewhere


 
He lives on the Clontarf Road, Dublin - not far from the railway bridge.




DB74 said:


> Also Wallace's salary doubled from €148K to €289K between 2007 & 2008. That doesn't sound like someone trying to keep a struggling business afloat. In fact it's more like someone getting what they can out of a dying business before the creditors come knocking


 
There are two directors in the company, Mick and his son Sasha. Your statement would mean that Mick was the only one being paid. The Independent forgot to mention that the directors of the company took a pay cut in 2007 compared to 2006.


----------



## DB74 (8 Jun 2012)

RonanC said:


> The Independent forgot to mention that the directors of the company took a pay cut in 2007 compared to 2006.



2007 must have been tough for them, getting by on only €148K between the 2 of them.

Strange that they bumped the salary back up again when things were going bad


----------



## Sunny (8 Jun 2012)

RonanC said:


> He lives on the Clontarf Road, Dublin - not far from the railway bridge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter if they took a paycut in 2007. You don't go paying yourself six figure salaries when you owe Revenue over €1m. Out of curiousity, what age is the son?


----------



## demoivre (8 Jun 2012)

DB74 said:


> I hope someone does a poll solely on the streets of Wexford, given that Wallace said yesterday that he would decide based on the vibe from Wexford people whether to resign or not



I can think of several politicians, including former taoisigh, who would never have been re-elected, if those electing them cared about integrity. Instead  some of them repeatedly topped the poll !


----------



## RonanC (8 Jun 2012)

sunny said:


> it doesn't matter if they took a paycut in 2007. You don't go paying yourself six figure salaries when you owe revenue over €1m. Out of curiousity, what age is the son?


 
30


----------



## Firefly (8 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> Oh yeah, and stop calling me Mandie, I'm not a girl!! (You'll have me paranoid now, wondering if I come across as effeminate!)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benoit_Mandelbrot


 
Curious?


----------



## mandelbrot (8 Jun 2012)

DB74 said:


> According to the Indo, Begley's company as repaying loans to the tune of €33K a month.
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/national-...x-years-over-16m-garlic-tax-scam-3045619.html
> 
> ...


 
In relation to Wallace the increase in salary does colour the thing a bit alright, but with director's remuneration it's hard to say much without knowing what its composition is - he may well have been drawing a lot of the money to service personal loans, it was certainly a common feature with builders at the time.

We've reached a stage where I'm defending Wallace a lot less than you're defending Begley though, which I find a bit ironic...!

As for Begley, the 33k a month refers to the import duty; at the time of the article over half of the money had already been paid back. The 2005 accounts are interesting because of the cash injection... I want to have a look at them properly before I say anything else on it.


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## STEINER (8 Jun 2012)

Wallace should resign as TD.  He could always run in the bye-election and let the voters decide if they want him as a TD.


----------



## ajapale (8 Jun 2012)

Wallace should be given the same break as Lowery.


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## blueband (9 Jun 2012)

Sunny said:


> It doesn't matter if they took a paycut in 2007. You don't go paying yourself six figure salaries when you owe Revenue over €1m.


would that not be the right time to pay yourself six figures!


----------



## Bronte (13 Jun 2012)

While I can completely understand why someone would underdeclare the VAT to try and work through a tough trading condition there are too many things that don't add up here. 

One could see how in 2008 suddenly business goes bang, one doesn't realise it and banks suddenly pull the rug from under you. But not paying workers pensions deduction, doubling director's salaried and not paying VAT shows a pattern. Though I may be wrong. Could be pressure brought on the man. 

Nevertheless he has cheated the revenue and if he has any integrity has the option to resign, and go for re election, after answering the many unanswered questions to the electorate. 

Shane Ross etc why haven't you tabled a new bill so that any elected official that falls foul of the revenue in say the previous 5 years has to resign. So that we don't have to go through this unedifying episode again. 

What is wrong with our legislators. Methinks a lot of them have skeletons themselves. Same old, same old.  If it's ok to do what he has done because he is a character then we will never get anywhere.


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## mandelbrot (14 Jun 2012)

How do you define falling foul of Revenue though Bronte?

Not disputing the validity of anything you've said, just wondering how/where you draw a line.

Plenty of people make genuine errors in their tax returns - not Mick  though, he didn't even have the cop on to pretend it was a mistake - but  plenty of people do. 

To use an example you could definitely relate to, say Joe Bloggs TD has rental property, and he thought the letting agent  had registered it with PRTB and the letting agent thought he had. The accountant never twigged it, and claimed the mortgage interest  deduction. Now this could easily amount to a publishable amount if it  went on for 4 years (and it would go on that long if the tenants stayed,  because it would realistically only be copped in year 1).

If the Revenue auditor had SimplyJoe's outlook ("revenue doesn't audit  enough and when they do the penalties aren't tough enough"), and  wouldn't accept that it was an error, then you can be pretty sure it'd  be 30%+ penalty and into Iris Oifigiuil with ya - and lose your seat in  the Dáil.

Seems a bit harsh to me. So that's why I ask how best to define / establish where the line is.

(Also, he should the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language off his accountant, not that it'll get him his Dáil seat back...! )


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## Purple (14 Jun 2012)

Is what Mick Wallace did worse or better than putting in false mobile phone bills in order to scam Dail expenses?


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## blueband (14 Jun 2012)

if we were dig down deep enough nearly everyone of them would have something to hide! the dail was always a breeding ground for chancers and  fraudsters.


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## mandelbrot (14 Jun 2012)

blueband said:


> if we were dig down deep enough nearly everyone of them would have something to hide! the dail was always a breeding ground for chancers and fraudsters.


 
And who votes all these rogues into the Dáil? You and me, and the rest of the public. So if enough of the population are willing to vote for chancers and fraudsters, what does that say about us, in general.


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## TRS30 (14 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> And who votes all these rogues into the Dáil? You and me, and the rest of the public. So if enough of the population are willing to vote for chancers and fraudsters, what does that say about us, in general.


 
To me it says we have a vey poor selection to choose from......


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## Purple (14 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> And who votes all these rogues into the Dáil? You and me, and the rest of the public. So if enough of the population are willing to vote for chancers and fraudsters, what does that say about us, in general.


It says that our TD's are a representative cross section of the Irish electorate. When we have the kind of discussion  we had about the last referendum I’m not in the least bit surprised that we have such a low calibre of public representative.  




TRS30 said:


> To me it says we have a very poor selection to choose from......


Why would a capable person with integrity run for the Dail when they know that they will have to lower themselves to the same level as a Mick Wallace, a Bertie Ahern or a Liam Lawlor in order to placate and buy off the mutton-heads who elect them?


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## ninsaga (14 Jun 2012)

..so based on his statement I suppose that makes it OK so then! Eh no me thinks.

He gets to keep his job and we the tax payers will pay him so that he can pay half of it back to us... makes perfect sense alright. You'd only get away with it here.


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## Bronte (15 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> To use an example you could definitely relate to, say Joe Bloggs TD has rental property, and he thought the letting agent had registered it with PRTB and the letting agent thought he had. The accountant never twigged it, and claimed the mortgage interest deduction. Now this could easily amount to a publishable amount if it went on for 4 years (and it would go on that long if the tenants stayed, because it would realistically only be copped in year 1).
> 
> )


 
This example which I do relate to is not at all the same. In that scenario a genuine mistake was made. I don't think people should be severly punished for that. There was a poster on here who owed something like 44 Euro and didn't realise it and had to pay 1K due to penalties and interest. Mick Wallace on 3 occasions so far has a) not paid pension deductions (since rectified) taken VAT but didn't pay it over to revenue, and did so deliberately and c) doubled directors salaries when the company was running at a loss. to counter this he was apparently in business for 20 years and was fully tax compliant. 

What do I learn from the Mick Wallace scenario, if I have a company I can hide behind the Limited if the company goes bust. I fully agree with having limited companies, but if you collect VAT and don't pay it then there should be some form of punishement, say not being allowed be a director for a certain number of years and not allowed hold elected office or be appointed to a state board for a number of years. 

PAYE workers do not have any choice in this matter, and it is revenue's job to ensure that we all pay and that those who don't are suitably punished. If they don't then we all pay. I was brought up in a culture of complete and utter non payance of anything, stamp duty, VAT, rates, CGT, income tax and it's very difficult to change that mindset including myself, but as I've grown older and probably living abroad changes one my understanding is that we all have to pay if we want services. I have family members who comply and others who pay nothing and avoid evereything and they do get away with it. 


Purple there is no difference in either the VAT or the expenses fraud. Both are 'stealing' and defrauding. On both counts other taxpayers have to pay more because of these actions.

Revenue in my opinion have more questions to answer than Wallace.  They have a policy of targeting the large tax evaders.  I would like to know exactly why they didn't prosecute Wallace when they did Begley.  Begley is actually paying his taxes back, good for the tax payer and is also still a large employer, good for the tax payer and economy. 

It seems to me from my experience of revenue that they tend to take the easy route on certain people and it is not unheard of for revenue to be policitally sensitive and have Ministers call them in (Haughey)


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## Bronte (15 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> Wallace DELAYED declaring and paying tax, whereas Begley fraudulently EVADED it, with no intention of ever paying it.
> 
> , but I don't think People who are drawing comparisons actually realise how different, both legally (from a prosecutable perspective) and ethically (Begley's motive was greed, Wallace's was to try to keep a business afloat and dozens of jobs intact).


 
I'd like to analyse your first sentence.

We do not know that Wallace delayed declaring tax, we know he falsified his accounts and thereby evaded paying tax. We do not know that he intended to later pay it. In any case that is not a defence to what he did. 

This was not tax avoidance. Tax avoidance is when you do what you can to minimise your taxes. This is perfectly legit tax planning. As a landlord I do it all the time to try and make my business profitable and in order to pay less taxes.

If you falsify your accounts and thereby do not pay enough tax than plain and simple that is tax evasion. Tax evasion is illegal and punishable. 

I fail to see the distinction on a legal point of view between Wallace and Begley. Ethics and motive do not come into it. Both are diddling the compliant tax payers.


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## Purple (15 Jun 2012)

ninsaga said:


> ..so based on his statement I suppose that makes it OK so then! Eh no me thinks.


 
No, it’s not at all ok. My point is that we can’t sit back and lament the low quality and lack of integrity of our politicians. I’ve been of the opinion for a long time that they are, in general, more intelligent and have more integrity than the people who elect them. I’m not for a minute saying that I thing they are good enough though.
When we look at the endemic levels of tax evasion (VAT, income tax, household charge etc), black economy, welfare fraud and low-level criminality in our society it’s a miracle that we have the public representatives we have.


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## Purple (15 Jun 2012)

ninsaga said:


> He gets to keep his job and we the tax payers will pay him so that he can pay half of it back to us... makes perfect sense alright. You'd only get away with it here.


Sure it will all be paid back in a couple of hundred years (adjusting for inflation and interest) so what's the problem?


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## ninsaga (15 Jun 2012)

.... and thats the issue - after the weekend this will all be forgotten about - onto the next crisis and he gets to hold his position with untouched expenses!


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## thedaras (15 Jun 2012)

Just as a matter of interest,(and the Dail talk of the non wearing of jeans and t-shirts).
I wonder if Mick Wallace The Company,insist that his staff wear uniforms in the restaurant or is it a free for all??


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## ninsaga (15 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> Just as a matter of interest,(and the Dail talk of the non wearing of jeans and t-shirts).
> I wonder if Mick Wallace The Company,insist that his staff wear uniforms in the restaurant or is it a free for all??



... you know, I was looking at a part of the news this week where they had shown Wallace, Ming & some other woman siting in the Dail. Honestly they three of them looked like a bunch of misfits thrown over into the back corner of the class. Wallaace was standing up reading a statement, Ming next to him and the woman (sorry don't know who she is), sitting back in the chair chewing gum (open mouth) like a someone hanging around a street corner.

Now I'm all for free expressions etc etc but as I looked it them I thought - are these the people who are representing this country, are these the ones who should go to Europe from time to time and try broker the best deals for the country? Are these the people who should meet face to face with Irish groups and potential enterprise investors in Ireland in visits to Washington? ... and I thought .... no.

Now to be honest I'd say the same about most of those who are suited up in the Dail anyway - but jeez this is a new low as far as I can see.


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## thedaras (15 Jun 2012)

I think the same every time I see a photo of the group of them,I just die a little bit.
(leaving aside the fact that many dressed in suits have the same effect,due to their activity's,But that's for another thread)
Where is the line drawn,Tracksuits/belly tops/man kinis!! 
But I do still wonder if his staff have to conform and wear uniforms??


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## ninsaga (15 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> Where is the line drawn,Tracksuits/belly tops/man kinis!!



...forgot to add pajamas there


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## Delboy (15 Jun 2012)

ninsaga said:


> ...  Ming next to him and the woman (sorry don't know who she is), sitting back in the chair chewing gum (open mouth) like a someone hanging around a street corner....



that would be the one and only Clare Daly.....saw her monching away on the gum on the tv the other night....keeping it real a la the proletariat, so she is!


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## DB74 (15 Jun 2012)

Bronte said:


> There was a poster on here who owed something like 44 Euro and didn't realise it and had to pay 1K due to penalties and interest. Mick Wallace on 3 occasions so far has a) not paid pension deductions (since rectified) taken VAT but didn't pay it over to revenue, and did so deliberately and c) doubled directors salaries when the company was running at a loss. to counter this he was apparently in business for 20 years and was fully tax compliant.



Well said


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## micmclo (16 Jun 2012)

Delboy said:


> that would be the one and only Clare Daly.....saw her monching away on the gum on the tv the other night....keeping it real a la the proletariat, so she is!



The strongest Dublin accent around...........yet she's from Kildare!

More local then the locals themselves


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## Bronte (18 Jun 2012)

Bronte said:


> Mick Wallace on 3 occasions so far has a) not paid pension deductions (since rectified) b) taken VAT but didn't pay it over to revenue, and did so deliberately and c) doubled directors salaries when the company was running at a loss.


 
Need to add to this

d) Apparently owed his brother 550K and as he was unable to pay him he transferrred a vineyard in Italy to him in lieu of payment

That's interesting because I presume his brother was not his ownly creditor.  Guess that makes the brother a 'preferred' creditor.  Wallace has given personal guarantees but this 'unencumbered property slipped the banks net.  

e) a minor matter, of parking in the Aer Lingus staff parking

f) not sure yet about the fact that so many family members purchased apartments in one block of his

The whole point of the change of TD's was supposed to be a new broom, a different type of character to what went before.  All the above would suggest more of the same.


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## Sunny (18 Jun 2012)

Also, this was interesting in todays Irish Times. Basically deals with the Court's attitude to tax evasion offences. In March, a used car dealer was jailed for four years after pleading guilty to counts of failing to pay VAT for three years. He had reached a settlement with Revenue and had paid back most of the VAT due, interest and penalties. The judge still jailed him and said that offenders should not think they can buy themselves out of a jail sentence.



[broken link removed]


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## TarfHead (18 Jun 2012)

micmclo said:


> The strongest Dublin accent around...........yet she's from Kildare!


 
It would appear that having a strong Dublin accent is a pre-requisite to advancement in the trade union movement. And Clare Daly was a leading trade union official representing Aer Lingus staff.


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## ninsaga (18 Jun 2012)

TarfHead said:


> It would appear that having a strong Dublin accent is a pre-requisite to advancement in the trade union movement. And Clare Daly was a leading trade union official representing Aer Lingus staff.



..all together now in you best inner city dublin accent.... she's looking for justice for 'da prolehtaeeeeriath' 

(sorry couldn't help that  )


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## thedaras (18 Jun 2012)

TarfHead said:


> It would appear that having a strong Dublin accent is a pre-requisite to advancement in the trade union movement. And Clare Daly was a leading trade union official representing Aer Lingus staff.



Ohh ..does that mean she has life time/free car parking there ??


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## Purple (18 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> Ohh ..does that mean she has life time/free car parking there ??


 as well as the Dail?!


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## TarfHead (18 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> Ohh ..does that mean she has life time/free car parking there ??


 
I don't know if she was employed by Aer Lingus, or by SIPTU, before she was elected to the Dáil.


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## Delboy (18 Jun 2012)

ah now I see how he got the aer lingus car parking when he went over to Poland!!!....he'd have stayed in Poland for at least the Croatia game if it was'nt for Vincent Browne telling him to come back asap when he rang him

Any sign of invoices etc to back up this 550k he owed the brother!


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## terrontress (18 Jun 2012)

TarfHead said:


> I don't know if she was employed by Aer Lingus, or by SIPTU, before she was elected to the Dáil.


 
I think she was a cleaner on board aircraft so I'd imagine it was Aer Lingus, or one of their subcontractors, employing her.


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## Delboy (18 Jun 2012)

was she not part of the old catering section with AL from what I've heard


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## thedaras (18 Jun 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_Daly
According to the above link:



> Daly studied accountancy at Dublin City University.



Were there no jobs in accountancy in those days? (Although it doesn't say she actually finished the course?)




> she took a job in the wash-up section of Aer Lingus catering, packing sauages into foil breakfast trays for a living


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## Purple (18 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_Daly
> According to the above link:
> 
> 
> ...


 
Back in the day a part qualified accountant could start off running a hospital and end up running (or should that be ruining) a country.
The woman must have no ambition!


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## TarfHead (18 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_Daly
> According to the above link:


 
That reads like the sort of content that gives Wikipedia a bad name.

'_the wash-up section_'


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## DB74 (18 Jun 2012)

> she took a job in the wash-up section of Aer Lingus catering, packing sauages into foil breakfast trays for a living



The Wikipedia reference for this line actually refers to last Saturday's (16-Jun-12) Review section of the Irish Independent. There is no link on the article though so maybe if someone still has the review they could check if this is the word-for-word version from the Indo.


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## DB74 (18 Jun 2012)

Here's the article and incredibly it is verbatim

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle...nt-give-mick-his-marching-orders-3139905.html


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## mandelbrot (21 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_Daly
> According to the above link:
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry, but WHAT the hell!?!?

So if you do a degree you are somehow required to then take a job in that field?

Plenty of people who do accounting degrees don't ever work, or even attempt to work, in the field.

I should know, as I did accounting and there are plenty of my classmates who had no desire to be accountants by the end of the course.

Seems a bit like snobbery on your part there TBH thedaras, or maybe I'm missing the point of what you were trying to convey..?


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## thedaras (22 Jun 2012)

Just an insight into someone's thinking..If they choose to pack sausages for a living (their choice)..it would appear all it would have taken was a half hour under supervision on how to pack a sausage.. Im sure there are many who didn't have an accountancy degree who would have appreciated that job  , a degree most likely subsidised by the tax payer .


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## blueband (22 Jun 2012)

why are we all having a go at this person??????


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## Firefly (22 Jun 2012)

blueband said:


> why are we all having a go at this person??????


 
Let's see:

He's a politician
He's a builder who's left a string of sub-contractors without pay
He's avoided/evaded/whatever paying >2m in tax
He's in public office and has often mouthed off about how FF wrecked the economy

IMO he's a complete chancer, devoid of the necessary skills for public office (quite a few of them in there though to be fair) but blessed with a trusting face.


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## Liamos (22 Jun 2012)

Firefly said:


> Let's see:
> 
> He's a politician
> He's a builder who's left a string of sub-contractors without pay
> ...


 
I think Blueband was referring to Clare Daly, not Mick Wallace!


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## Firefly (22 Jun 2012)

Liamos said:


> I think Blueband was referring to Clare Daly, not Mick Wallace!


 
Oops!


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## blueband (22 Jun 2012)

yes, i was refering to clare daly. not mick wallace!


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## mandelbrot (22 Jun 2012)

thedaras said:


> Just an insight into someone's thinking..If they choose to pack sausages for a living (their choice)..it would appear all it would have taken was a half hour under supervision on how to pack a sausage.. Im sure there are many who didn't have an accountancy degree who would have appreciated that job , a degree most likely subsidised by the tax payer .


 
So... I haven't misunderstood your opinion then? In your opinion she did an accounting degree, so there is some kind of social imperative that she then seeks and/or takes a job in accountancy, or some equally "worthy" area, rather than slum it by taking an unskilled job..?

I think your last couple of posts give a more interesting insight into your thinking / attitudes, than anyone else's.

As for the "subsidised by the taxpayer" bit, every student in the country, from primary level upwards is subsidised to some extent by the taxpayer.


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## Purple (22 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> So... I haven't misunderstood your opinion then? In your opinion she did an accounting degree, so there is some kind of social imperative that she then seeks and/or takes a job in accountancy, or some equally "worthy" area, rather than slum it by taking an unskilled job..?
> 
> I think your last couple of posts give a more interesting insight into your thinking / attitudes, than anyone else's.
> 
> As for the "subsidised by the taxpayer" bit, every student in the country, from primary level upwards is subsidised to some extent by the taxpayer.



I suppose the argument could be make that it your education was funded by your fellow citizens you should use that education for the common good.
That may mean working as an accountant and having the be-This post will be deleted if not edited immediately taxed out of your income or doing something that helps others. Working as a cleaner or joining a vested interest group that seeks to further the interests of its members to the detriment of the common good hardly fit that aspiration but becoming a TD might (depending on how that TD behaves).

Personally I find the whole "repaying society" thing a bit Big Brother-ish.


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## thedaras (22 Jun 2012)

mandelbrot said:


> > In your opinion she did an accounting degree, so there is some kind of social imperative that she then seeks and/or takes a job in accountancy, or some equally "worthy" area, rather than slum it by taking an unskilled job..?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sunny (22 Jun 2012)

Can't stand Clare Daly but who are people here to criticise what job she may have taken. There may have been personal or medical reasons to explain what she did. She worked and she paid taxes. If she chooses to become a cleaner or set up the new Facebook is no one else's business. 

There are plenty of areas where she can be ridiculed including her support of Wallace but choosing to work in Aer Lingus catering is not one of those areas.


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## thedaras (22 Jun 2012)

I haven't noticed anyone ridiculing her, people are noting she did an accountancy degree and then went on to pack sausages..when has stating facts become ridicule?

And of  course when you have a choice and choose to work in an non challenging job( for your qualifications ),you end up on minimum wage,and then some go on to criticize those who have worked to try earn a better a standard of living for them and their families..so to me this is more about choosing the easy option..and thats fine by me..except when it comes to someone who is high profile and spends a lot of time and energy arguing with the world for all it is doing to them and others like them.


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## blueband (22 Jun 2012)

sunny said:


> can't stand clare daly but who are people here to criticise what job she may have taken. There may have been personal or medical reasons to explain what she did. She worked and she paid taxes. If she chooses to become a cleaner or set up the new facebook is no one else's business.
> 
> There are plenty of areas where she can be ridiculed including her support of wallace but choosing to work in aer lingus catering is not one of those areas.


 +1


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## bullbars (5 Jul 2012)

If he did not disclose the tax he owed in order to keep the company going is this Insolvent trading? If I recall Pierse Contracting were cited for similiar shortly after their demise


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## Delboy (5 Jul 2012)

did the Revenue strike a deal knowing his firm could never pay it???


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## mandelbrot (6 Jul 2012)

Delboy said:


> did the Revenue strike a deal knowing his firm could never pay it???


 
Presumably, it's not unusual, otherwise they can't close the audit and name & shame the company. It's a situation that's become more common in recent years. [broken link removed]


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## Delboy (6 Jul 2012)

'name and shame'.....and they can then close the file!!!! madness


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## mandelbrot (7 Jul 2012)

Delboy said:


> 'name and shame'.....and they can then close the file!!!! madness



As opposed to what?

Keep the file open, still don't get the money (since as your own post acknowledges, they're unlikely to ever get it), and the name never gets published...?

Maybe you're unclear as to how the Revenue audit system operates. Cases are audited to determine if there's additional liability, assess it if there is, and attempt to collect it. Where liability exists, the punishments are interest, penalties and publication. If the tax, interest and penalties aren't collectable in full, the audit still needs to be closed in order for publication. Otherwise there's a clear incentive not to pay, and thereby avoid publication. The Code of Practice for Revenue Audit contains clear guidelines as to how "inability to pay" cases are dealt with.

Another purpose is to recommend cases suitable for prosecution, to Revenue's Investigation & Prosecution Division. Now, we'll never know whether Wallace's case was even considered for prosecution, but such cases are very difficult to prosecute (it's essentially trying to prove fraud), so there probably wasn't deemed to be a winnable case.


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## Shawady (8 Oct 2012)

DB74 said:


> “Even though it was illegal, I thought it was the right thing to do.”


 
Yet, when he was owed money he hired a hitman to get it for him. And this guy is a member of our parliment.

[broken link removed]


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## Deiseblue (8 Oct 2012)

Shawady said:


> Yet, when he was owed money he hired a hitman to get it for him. And this guy is a member of our parliment.
> 
> [broken link removed]



Careful now !

He spoke to & threatened to employ an armed debt collector in order to collect monies owing - he never hired such a person.

Hopefully the VAT collection unit of the Revenue don't have a SWAT team in place from the point of view of protecting the bould Mickey's peace of mind.


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## Purple (8 Oct 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> Careful now !
> 
> He spoke to & threatened to employ an armed debt collector in order to collect monies owing - he never hired such a person.
> 
> Hopefully the VAT collection unit of the Revenue don't have a SWAT team in place from the point of view of protecting the bould Mickey's peace of mind.



Is threatening to kill someone a crime?
If the person believes the threat is real does that constitute intimidation?


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## Deiseblue (8 Oct 2012)

Purple said:


> Is threatening to kill someone a crime?
> If the person believes the threat is real does that constitute intimidation?



I would say that it is definitely a crime but one that is unlikely to be pursued as Mr. Wallace according to media reports did not directly approach the person who owed him money.

It does appear that Mr. Wallace did not employ an armed debt collector however.

He is however an indelible stain on the face of the body politic.


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## Leo (8 Oct 2012)

Purple said:


> Is threatening to kill someone a crime?


 
Yes, it is. Dealt with pretty seriously [broken link removed] and again.


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## Purple (8 Oct 2012)

Leo said:


> Yes, it is. Dealt with pretty seriously [broken link removed] and again.



Well it seems that TD's are held to a lower standard than the rest of us. Strange that.


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## Latrade (9 Oct 2012)

I miss the days when we just used to think of criminal TDs as cads and loveable rogues or Fianna Fall (collectively) and vote for them in our droves. 

This outrage at each and every criminal activity that would see one of us citizens locked up or fined or sacked at least, but them continue with a very well paid job and a very well paid pension that kicks in as soon as they leave rather than at 65 like the rest of us, is getting tiresome. It was so much easier for our parents.


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## Bronte (9 Oct 2012)

I wonder if Mick Wallace speaks in the Dail about the possible hitman would he then be entitled to Dail privilage and cannot be prosecuted.


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## Leo (9 Oct 2012)

Purple said:


> Well it seems that TD's are held to a lower standard than the rest of us. Strange that.


 
Strange and the norm. All at once!


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