# Renting without a lease



## pingin (5 Dec 2010)

I've looked at renting a small flat in Milltown (Dublin)—living-room cum kitchen, shower room with toilet and a double-bedroom. It's very small but very convenient for work. 

The landlord's asking Euro 690 p.m., to be paid in cash. As it's for a short-term rent, he says he 'doesn't believe in leases', but it seems to be more about hiding the cash.

Any reason not to go into an arrangement like this? I only want the place for about a year. There's a lease agreement for the place I'm in now but it didn't stop the landlord (live-in) turning against me and wasn't really worth the paper it's written on.


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## mercman (5 Dec 2010)

Simple answer. Rent it as stated and once in, report him to the PRTB. You have rights and this landlord thinks you are living in a Banana Bus


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## pingin (5 Dec 2010)

It's a granny flat attached to a private house, so I don't think he's a big-time landlord. All the same, it's a tidy sum every month.

I'm starting to get desperate now, so places begin to look attractive...


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## noodles (5 Dec 2010)

Don't even think about it... if he's being dishonest already how is the rest of your tennancy going to be.  He 'doesn't believe in leases'??? Seriouly...  have a think about what else he mightn't believe in.

I know it's horrible be be flat hunting under pressure, especially in this weather, but anything - even a temporary house share - would be better than a granny flat attached to a dodgy landlord.


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## pingin (5 Dec 2010)

He's a family man and seems decent enough to talk to; nothing of the sleazy landlord about him. Not sure why all the secrecy though...


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## bankrupt (5 Dec 2010)

pingin said:


> He's a family man and seems decent enough to talk to; nothing of the sleazy landlord about him. Not sure why all the secrecy though...



The secrecy is just there presumably because the landlord has no intention of paying tax.  Even without a lease you will be covered by the PRTB rules after 6 months of occupancy, perhaps that would be sufficient?


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## pingin (5 Dec 2010)

I'm a firm believer in the PRTB myself. There are far too many gombeen landlords out there who are still making fat profits from second- or third-rate properties.

That said, I've rented from a few gombeen landlords in my time...


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## Bronte (6 Dec 2010)

Not having a lease does not mean the landlord is not tax compliant.  Nor does receiving the rent in cash mean anything.  If you like the place and the landlord I don't see the issue.


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## bugler (6 Dec 2010)

As Bronte says, on the face of it there's no reason yet to believe he is being secretive or trying to dodge tax. Maybe you have left out some details, but he may just prefer to work without a lease. There are landlords who do this, just not that many anymore. If he declined to register the tenancy with the PRTB then that would be an indicator he's not being above board.

There will still be conditions and obligations on both tenant and landlord as outlined in the RTA 2004.



> Any reason not to go into an arrangement like this? I only want the place for about a year.



The one big reason not to go into it is that the landlord could decide he wants the place back after a month and you'd have to leave (with notice). Without a fixed term agreement (note the PRTB has stated that it is possible to have a verbal fixed term agreement - not sure how you'd prove this but there you go!) you do not have any degree of security of tenure. You'd have to be in situ for 6 months before you'd get any, and even then it's limited as there are quite broad criteria that allow a LL to terminate the tenancy anyway.

If the idea that you could be turned out at relatively short notice doesn't bother you then there's no reason why you shouldn't go for this place, if you like it.


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## dereko1969 (6 Dec 2010)

Bronte said:


> Not having a lease does not mean the landlord is not tax compliant. Nor does receiving the rent in cash mean anything. If you like the place and the landlord I don't see the issue.


 
if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck........


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## Bronte (6 Dec 2010)

bugler said:


> (note the PRTB has stated that it is possible to have a verbal fixed term agreement -


 
Where did you get this information from?


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## queenlex (6 Dec 2010)

noodles said:


> don't even think about it... If he's being dishonest already how is the rest of your tennancy going to be. He 'doesn't believe in leases'??? Seriouly... Have a think about what else he mightn't believe in.
> 
> I know it's horrible be be flat hunting under pressure, especially in this weather, but anything - even a temporary house share - would be better than a granny flat attached to a dodgy landlord.


 
+1


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## bugler (6 Dec 2010)

Bronte said:


> Where did you get this information from?



From the (awful) PRTB site. They issue explanatory info on the RTA and how they view it, essential really because the Act itself is very difficult to interpret. 

"Landlords and tenants often enter into a tenancy for a fixed term period. For example a landlord or tenant may agree that the tenancy will be for a period of two years. Usually, the terms of a fixed term tenancy are contained in a lease agreement. A written lease agreement is not necessary however, for
a fixed term tenancy to exist, as the Act provides that a fixed term tenancy may also be oral or implied."


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## ajapale (6 Dec 2010)

Moved from  Mortgages to  Property Investment and Tenants' Rights.

Please post in the correct sub forum.


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## pingin (6 Dec 2010)

I'm looking at six to nine months, until I can figure out a long-term plan (buying a house or long-term rent), so I won't be there for too long.

Still not sure though; there was a slight musty smell when I went in the front door. It has storage heaters and it looked like they hadn't been on for a while.


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## Bronte (7 Dec 2010)

bugler said:


> From the (awful) PRTB site. , as the Act provides that a fixed term tenancy may also be oral or implied."


 Sorry I should have said how can you prove an oral fixed term tenancy.


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## alaskaonline (7 Dec 2010)

pingin said:


> It's a granny flat attached to a private house, so I don't think he's a big-time landlord. All the same, it's a tidy sum every month.
> 
> I'm starting to get desperate now, so places begin to look attractive...



you should check first with the PRTB/ Treshold if the landlord/tenant legislation in Ireland kicks in here or not. I am sure they have strict guidelines as to when it becomes a non private residence.

If your "future landlord" is seen as someone only renting out a room en suite on his private property where he lives himself, it also means that he is not obliged to register with the PRTB as a landlord or provide a rent book/ lease to the tenant.

Also, that "landlord" is then exempt from tax if he qualifies under the above: see here
"If you rent out a room (or rooms) in your principal private residence to  private tenants during the relevant tax year, the rental income you  earn will be exempt from income tax, provided this income does not  exceed €10,000."


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