# Tracker rate offered too high, took SVR instead. Complaint with Ombudsman



## random2011 (19 Feb 2015)

bpw said:


> Nice 1 matan mine doesnt state the rate it just says tracker rate then prevailing so that will probably be another fight ill have to go through with them.


In 2009 they were offering tracker margins between 3% and 4% - i was offered 3.25% and decided to choose SVR at the time.

Will be interesting to see what rates those who are returned to tracker are put on where their loan offer did not mention the margin. It is clear cut for those like matan who had margin of 1% or similar quoted. But bpw what will you do if they offer 3.25%

fyi I have an existing case with FSO on why the margin of 3.25% was so high in 2009 and did not reflect the rate of margin back in 2006. Although not specified we have proof it was low and our loan offer says the tracker margin will never change over the course of the loan.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Feb 2015)

random 

I moved this from the other general thread, as I think that others will be in same, very specific, boat which you are in.

You raise two very interesting points here.
1)  Was the tracker rate offered by ptsb fair?
2)  Although it was high, were you tricked into accepting a lower SVR, which will cost you a lot more in the long term.

I don't really fancy your chances with the Ombudsman on this issue. But I think you should raise it with the Central Bank.

Brendan


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## ella (19 Feb 2015)

my daughter got her tracker back from permanent tsb as her husband had never signed the letter she sent in feb 2009 breaking out of fixed rate. bank offered 3.25% + ECB  told her take it are leave it


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## GiganticLamb (19 Feb 2015)

I contacted PTSB and asked them what rate I would have been offered on expiry in November 2010,I was coming off a 3 year fixed term which I broke out .

I have a feeling it will be ECB + 3.25%.  They have written to me confirming they have recieved my request and will get back to me. 

Its a high rate but considering when we were campaigning on here about them the rate was 6.1% ,and the rate now is 4.5% so I will be much better off .

I also requested that my contract and letter of offer was sent to me via post,On recieving these documents there was another persons breaking out letter with,name /address/morgage account number etc on it.

Incompetence isnt the word for these shower.


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## Somar (23 Feb 2015)

Hi Brendan

I took out a mortgage with PTSB on 2007 that was fixed for two years with the option of a tracker on expiry of the fixed rate period. On March 6th 2009, i received an options letter which had three options, LTV Variable Rate at 4.15%, Tracker 4.35%  (ECB + MAX 2.35%) and  2 year Fixed Rate at 5.35%. The letter was to be returned by March 26th. The letter stated that if I choose a fixed rate after 2 years a tracker may or may not be available. No mention of whether it would be available or not again if I was to choose the SVR. If I didn't return the letter with an option,  the loan would default to the tracker option. The ECB dropped their rate on March 11 2009 by 0.5%. This would mean the new tracker rate was 3.85%.  Should PTSB not then have sent out a new letter to customers whom were coming out of a fixed rate highlighting the new options. This could not have been a huge volume of letters. I choose the SVR and sent it back to them. After several attempts to get my tracker restored I took my case to the FSO in 2012 and lost the case. I firmly believe PTSB carried out a lot of underhand tactics between the end of 2008 and the summer of 2009 until they stopped offering trackers on 31st August 2009 and tricked many customers whom should be on tackers for the lifetime of the mortgage onto SVRs. As the current investigations are ongoing with the CB and PTSB do you think my case will be investigated again, and if so should I make contact with the CB??


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## random2011 (23 Feb 2015)

Somar said:


> Hi Brendan
> 
> I took out a mortgage with PTSB on 2007 that was fixed for two years with the option of a tracker on expiry of the fixed rate period. On March 6th 2009, i received an options letter which had three options, LTV Variable Rate at 4.15%, Tracker 4.35%  (ECB + MAX 2.35%) and  2 year Fixed Rate at 5.35%. The letter was to be returned by March 26th. The letter stated that if I choose a fixed rate after 2 years a tracker may or may not be available. No mention of whether it would be available or not again if I was to choose the SVR. If I didn't return the letter with an option,  the loan would default to the tracker option. The ECB dropped their rate on March 11 2009 by 0.5%. This would mean the new tracker rate was 3.85%.  Should PTSB not then have sent out a new letter to customers whom were coming out of a fixed rate highlighting the new options. This could not have been a huge volume of letters. I choose the SVR and sent it back to them. After several attempts to get my tracker restored I took my case to the FSO in 2012 and lost the case. I firmly believe PTSB carried out a lot of underhand tactics between the end of 2008 and the summer of 2009 until they stopped offering trackers on 31st August 2009 and tricked many customers whom should be on tackers for the lifetime of the mortgage onto SVRs. As the current investigations are ongoing with the CB and PTSB do you think my case will be investigated again, and if so should I make contact with the CB??



Very similar to my case although we were offered ECB +3.25% and like you there was no mention that the tracker would not be offered again if we choose SVR which is what we did as the SVR was cheaper at that time 2009. Just to add we got our option letter in October 2009 when trackers were no longer available for new customers, one month before the end of the original 3 year fixed expired.

The case we have with the FSO is based on the tracker margin of 3.25% not reflecting the margin in 2006 when we drew down the mortgage. Although no rate of margin is specified in the loan offer we feel it should not be a rate of 3.25% because no bank was offering such a high margin in 2006. If margins were as high as 3.25% in 2006 no one would have choosen a tracker as ECB rate was also 3.25% meaning a rate of 6.5% We also have a list of documents (European Standardization or something similar)which show what the repayments would be from Year 1 through the term of the mortgage. We were able to look at the payments in year 3 (end of fixed) and year 4 and conclude that the margin was approx 1.15%. In fact these same documents actually state that the repayment details are based on the mortgage being a tracker mortgage.

I guess there is also the new argument that the bank never stated that if we choose SVR in 2009 that the tracker could no longer be offered. This is not an angle we are approaching with the FSO but very interesting.


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## Somar (23 Feb 2015)

I was offered a rate of (ECB + 2.35%) on the options letter. This rate ensured the tracker option was slightly higher than the SVR at the time PTSB were drafting my options letter. This rate was not on my original loan offer and no margin was mentioned on my loan offer. PTSB induced many customers away from trackers in early 2009 in this way and my question is are the CB going to investigate this issue also??


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## random2011 (23 Feb 2015)

I agree. Same tactic used with us except by the time our Fixed rate expired the ECB rate had come down. I suspect this is why we got offered 3.25% - this would make the SVC ever so slightly more attractable.

Would be interesting to see what rates others were offered after October 2009..again as ECB kept falling PTSB would have increased the margin 3.5%, 3.75%, 4% to ensure the SVR would look more appealing. in the end SVR was 6.1%. This is totally unfair imo


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## orka (23 Feb 2015)

Somar said:


> No mention of whether it would be available or not again if I was to choose the SVR.





random2011 said:


> ...I guess there is also the new argument that the bank never stated that if we choose SVR in 2009 that the tracker could no longer be offered. This is not an angle we are approaching with the FSO but very interesting.


It's not really a valid argument though.  If you choose a fixed rate, it has an end date at which point you have to sign up to some other rate - so they need to tell you what your options will be.  If you choose an SVR, that's it for the rest of your mortgage term - there never comes a point where you get to make another decision about what rate to go with next.  It's the same as if you had taken an SVR from day 1 - the bank doesn't spell out what options you won't have in the future.  Choosing the SVR is signing up to a term from then until the end of your mortage - it's very different from a fixed rate which has a shorter finite term.


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## Bronte (24 Feb 2015)

ella said:


> my daughter got her tracker back from permanent tsb as her husband had never signed the letter she sent in feb 2009 breaking out of fixed rate. bank offered 3.25% + ECB  told her take it are leave it


 
Can you clarify, because the mortage was 'joint' and only one signed for the breakage the bank had no authority to act and had to return the mortgage to tracker.

Would you have the confirmation of this in writing?

I've often wondered too about the fact that a lot of these breakages/changes were done on fax.  Not normal procedure.


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## bpw (4 Mar 2015)

Again just to point out that this was all done at the time they supposedly had an isssue with there system as previously posted by me (so convenient for ptsb). Still no one has been informed of this in writing only I have it as i noticed it during my original complaint with them before i went to the FSO. Anyone else have anything informing them of a system failure around this time


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## taldar (4 Mar 2015)

I have it in writing from ptsb & the FSO that they had an issue with their system in Jan/Feb 2009 that caused the "free" breaks.  Although I only got this when I had started the complaint procedure.


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## matan (10 Mar 2015)

I have it in writing in a letter which PTSB sent to FSO.  It stated that due to an error in the computer system we were charged 0 penalty but if it calculated correctly it would have been approx €9,000.00 (cannot remember exact figure), letter is among a stack of papers, will dig it out.  I remember reading on one of the threads that the FSO raised this issue in the High Court saying it was disingenuous but the Judge said it could not be proved and dismissed the FSO's comments.  Again it is somewhere in the original thread.   No doubt about it in my mind, there was no "error" just cunning planning to get people to break their fixed and lose their trackers giving them no advice!!!


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## S2K (17 Apr 2015)

Had a similar situation. When we took out the loan we agreed to a 2 year fixed that would revert to the then "tracker rate" offered by PTSB. By the end of the term PTSB had pulled tracker offerings but to comply with our condition offered ECB + 3.25%.

I took a complaint to the ombudsman on various grounds and he found against. Unsurprisingly after further digging, I found the level of cases the ombudsman finds in the plaintiff's favour to be pretty low and to me it seems like the organization is run to protect the banks rather than the consumers. Interesting to note that the high court found similarly in the recent case taken by the PTSB variable rate holders.


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