# Shooting hunt dogs



## bb12 (24 Feb 2009)

I have a legal question regarding farmers shooting dogs. I'm from a farming background and am aware that farmers can shoot dogs which enter their property and worry their sheep. Fair enough I say, as even though I'm an animal lover, I've seen the aftermath of dog attacks on sheep many times and it's not a pretty sight.

However I have a question regarding hunting hounds, ie the type used by horse hunts. My family are not hunting fans and all hunts are banned from our land. However we would like to know what is the law regarding shooting hunting hounds entering the property and worrying the sheep? 

I rang 6 Garda stations last week in relation to this question and nobody knew the legal implications if these hunting hounds were shot as if they were normal dogs worrying sheep. Finally the local Garda said that they couldn't be shot like other dogs and that any farmers that did so would get into a lot of legal bother.  

Can this be right? Can anybody answer this question from a legal point of view? Because as far as I know, sheep can't tell the difference if its a hunting dog or not and will be just as stressed if these dogs enter the fields.


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## truthseeker (24 Feb 2009)

From Control of Dogs Act 1986 (I just took the bit relevant to you):

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/act/pub/0032/sec0023.html#zza32y1986s23



> 1) It shall be a defence to any action for damages against a person for the shooting of a dog, or to any charge arising out of the shooting of a dog, if the defendant proves that—
> ( _a_ ) the dog was shot when it was worrying, or was about to worry, livestock and that there were no other reasonable means of ending or preventing the worrying;


 
Cant see how hunting dogs are any different to other dogs - although there may be a reasonable way of ending or preventing the worrying if the hunting dogs are accompanied by humans?


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## bb12 (24 Feb 2009)

Yes but Gardai have told us that the Control of Dogs act doesn't apply to hunting hounds as hunting hounds as supposed to be under control of the huntsmen...However seeing as huntsman are absolutely prohibited from entering our lands, I too would think that the Control of Dogs would apply, as the hunting hounds would then be definitely 'out of control' if they had passed onto the property by themselves in pursuit of a scent.

However I'm still not sure it's a clear cut as that. I would love to have a definite answer as I am sure there will be confrontations in the future, and it would be good to know the law in case of any future lawsuits.

I was also quite shocked at the complete lack of knowledge of the Gardai in this respect also.


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## truthseeker (24 Feb 2009)

bb12 said:


> I was also quite shocked at the complete lack of knowledge of the Gardai in this respect also.


 
Based on experiences I have had and having a number of personal friends who are Guards - they never seem to know the letter of the law.

You could phone up a hunting group and ask them?


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## CCOVICH (24 Feb 2009)

Is it likely that the situation will arise, i.e. that a hunt will end up on your lands if they are clearly prohibited from being there?

Would it be worth letting the local hunt aware of your position or is this likely to be seen as a threat?


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## bb12 (24 Feb 2009)

The local hunts are well aware that they are completely banned from our lands. However they often hunt in the fields next door, so it is quite likely that at some point in the future, the hounds might tresspass onto our property.  In the case of the local stag hunt, the stag has often jumped into our property and the hounds will thus follow. 

So it is a likely scenario that at some point in the future, hunting hounds may be found on our property without the company of their masters. All I want to know is the legal implications of shooting the hounds in such a scenario. And of course as long as there is no question of danger to any huntsmen or horses etc.


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## bb12 (24 Feb 2009)

Sorry but I'm not turning this into a hunting debate. i just wanted to know if anyone knew the answer to my question legally speaking.

Thanks.


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## truthseeker (24 Feb 2009)

I had a bit of a google on it - I cant find anything that classes hunting dogs to be different to ordinary dogs when it comes to worrying livestock.


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## mathepac (24 Feb 2009)

blackbrera said:


> As a matter of interest, what have you against the Hunt?


OP has already responded, but in general terms allowing or disallowing an activity on a property is at the discretion of the land-owner (shooting, quad-biking, camping, hunting, orienteering or whatever).

It doesn't mean they are against a particular activity, it just means they don't want it on their property and they are not obliged to explain why.


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## UptheDeise (24 Feb 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Based on experiences I have had and having a number of personal friends who are Guards - they never seem to know the letter of the law.
> 
> You could phone up a hunting group and ask them?


 
I don't know the ins and outs of the law on this one. But if any dog, whether it's a huntsmans dog or not, that is harassing your livestock you have a right to shot it.

If it is a huntsman dog and it's harassing your livestock than surely the huntsman is not in control of it, so that could be your defence when you've shot it.

As for the Garda not known the law on this one, I'm not really sure I buy that line. Maybe this area is a grey area and no Garda wants to give you advice that you may take and end up geting yourself in a whole heap of trouble and blaming the Garda for given you the advice in the first place. It's not worth the hassle for the Garda.

It's a bit like getting a Garda to sign your passport... some will do it, some won't.

Best thing to do is consult a solicitor.


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## Smashbox (24 Feb 2009)

I dont blame the OP for not getting into the pro/against hunting thing. They asked a question not relating to whether or not they are 'into' hunting, and well done OP for NOT answering blackbrera's question. This is off topic to the question.

Anyway, my two cents. I live in the countryside where such hunts occur. My brother is a registered owner and member or the local gun club. He asked one of the higher guys in the ranks and they said that a hunting hound is treated the same as a domestic dog, they are both classed as dogs when it comes down to it.

If a hound was on your land, and you fear for your livestock, you have as much right to shoot it as you would a dometics dog, fox, badger etc.

If the owners of these dogs, or any dogs, tresspass on your land after you have specifically denied them permission, treat this as tresspassing and report it to your local Gardai. They can then approach the hunters and tell them that a complaint has been made, hopefully allowing them the chance to contain and control their animals before you need to take further action.

Good luck, OP.


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## DavyJones (24 Feb 2009)

Shot a dog and see what happens.

When I was young, a neighbour of mine had a big farm, she detested hunting. From speaking to her it was more down to the damage the horses/riders did to land as opposed to killing a fox, she was a farmer and well used to seeing animals die and be born. She also wasn't crazy on the attitude that some of the riders had. Once hounds entered her land she would give the master 15 mins to get their dogs off her land, master had to enter on foot, no horse allowed.

She always carried a shot gun and by her look, was willing to use it. The hunt always gave her land a wide berth.


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## csirl (24 Feb 2009)

If the OP has banned the hunt from his land and the hunt is aware of this, then if the hunt hounds enter his land it must be because (i) they are not under the control of the hunt or (ii) the hunt has decided to ignore his request and trespass. Either way, the hunt has very little defence if the OP takes any action. The real question is what would be proportionate action given the circumstances.


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## Vanilla (24 Feb 2009)

The problem with live hunts is that you can't control the direction the quarry will go off in. Even in drag hunts they can degenerate into live hunts. 

There should always be riders right up with the hounds to control them though, and pull them back off land that they have no right to enter. Hunts are usually very well organised and controlled, so I'm surprised if the OP feels particularly endangered and hope it is an academic question.

It is as simple as this- if the hounds go on your land, and start to pose a threat to your animals you can shoot them. Proving it in court later is important if you are brought up on a cruelty charge so you should have a witness nearby with you if you feel the local hunt is endangering your sheep and you need to stand guard.

It is perfectly understandable that a farmer would not want a hunt on their land- and the hunt should always respect this.


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## Meathman99 (25 Feb 2009)

Dont know the answer but heres something to consider.   You see a hound,  you see red , get your shotgun (or rifle), dont see horseman, shoot hound, maybe cause horse to throw rider.
Have you now shot at a human?


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## jmrc (25 Feb 2009)

Had a similar situation a few years back with hunt dogs and the master. Took the passive approach, Wrote to the master of the hunt declaring wish for hunt and hounds to avoid our land. We then undertook to fence that perimeter and errect singnage. Seamed to do the trick,was only a drag hunt though.


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## FKH (1 Mar 2009)

The worry for the OP should be that the hounds will be followed by the Master and are controlled by him. They are not stray dogs and the OP would know this. Unless they were actually attacking the livestock (which hounds don't usually do) shooting them would seem to be because of a disagreement with the hunt rather than for any other reason. 

If the hounds were actually worrying livestock one could shoot but I think that if they were simply on the land you would be in trouble if you shot them with no cause. They don't know that they are not allowed on the land.


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## terrysgirl33 (2 Mar 2009)

I grew up on a farm, though I haven't lived at home in a loooong time, and the hunt was a regular problem.  I remember the following incidents taking place in the area:

- The hunt going through a newly planted field, destroying the crop.
- The hunt going through a field with sheep and new lambs in it.  The hounds didn't go anywhere near the sheep, but the sheep panicked (as sheep do) and huddled into a corner, leading to the death of several of them.
- The hunt cutting a barbed wire fence to let the hunt horses through, and coming back the next day to fix it.  However, the whole fence was fairly new and cutting the wire destroyed the tension on the rest of the fence, even though the immediate gap was fixed.

All these problems (and probably more that I wasn't aware of) happened without the hunt ever losing control of the hounds.

If they are not allowed on the land, they are not allowed and the hunt should be able to control them.  FWIW, a local farmer found a shotgun discharged over the heads of the hunt discouraged them (he had suffered a good bit with the hunt, and was rather short of temper).


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## FKH (2 Mar 2009)

While those problems are indeed annoying I don't think I could recommend to anyone to fire a warning shot at people. I cannot imagine the farmer thought he was in any danger from the hunt and actions like that could lead to prosecution. Suing the hunt for the damage caused would be the legal option to take.


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## bb12 (2 Mar 2009)

FKH said:


> If the hounds were actually worrying livestock one could shoot but I think that if they were simply on the land you would be in trouble if you shot them with no cause. They don't know that they are not allowed on the land.



The problem is that once any dog enters the same field as sheep, the sheep are immediately stressed. Usually they'll start running in panic and when they are heavily pregnant this will often result in lamb losses.  Dogs do not have to be actually attacking animal before it gets worried. The mere presence of a dog in the same area can cause damage. 

Hunt dogs are loud and will be howling and barking as they run through neighbouring fields so the sheep will already know of their presence in the area and will be stressed before they even enter the same fields as them.


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## terrysgirl33 (2 Mar 2009)

FKH said:


> While those problems are indeed annoying I don't think I could recommend to anyone to fire a warning shot at people. I cannot imagine the farmer thought he was in any danger from the hunt and actions like that could lead to prosecution. Suing the hunt for the damage caused would be the legal option to take.



So, it's OK to kill sheep and destroy crops, but heaven forfend that you kill the dog that caused the damage, or warned the trespassers?  This is a genuine question, not intended as a wind up.  I have seen sheep killed because they huddled together in fear of a dog, and the sheep in the middle suffocated, not to mention the loss of the lambs, why are their lives much less valuable than the lives of the dogs?

Hunts around the country seem to vary WIDELY in terms of the people who are involved and their attitudes.  This particular hunt seems to have the attitude that they have a G*d given right to ride over the land, and conversely seem to have no understanding of farming or the countryside??  I mentioned in a previous post that a crop had been ruined by the hunt going through it, other hunts ride around the edge of the field and that completely avoids that problem (dogs going through a field aren't going to damage a crop in all fairness).

AFAIK, it's up to the hunt to get permission from the land owners before entering on a hunt, not up to the landowner to 'protect' his/her land, but some hunts don't seem to understand that!

Edited to add, I realise this does not answer the legal question at all, sorry!  The farmer in question was not taken to court about discharging the shotgun, but it was a long time ago (20+ years).  The advice to warn the master of hounds to remove the dogs, and give him 15 minutes to do so seems good (if he can't remove them, then they are obviously not under control), though that depends on how the livestock is reacting.


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