# Taxi Drivers....lack of knowledge!!



## sam h (31 Jan 2010)

I hopped into a taxi last night in town and stated the name of my estate (a large well know estate).  He'd never heard of it so I said the name of the village (only 4 miles out of Dublin) and he asked the best way to get there - he didn't have a clue!

Surely they must have a basic knowledge of the area they are covering - I wouldn't expect them to know the road I live on, but surely to goodness they should know the towns and villages surrounding Dublin.  So I had the previledge of directing him around Dublin and then handing over €20 !!


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## Marion (31 Jan 2010)

sam h said:
			
		

> So I had the previledge of directing him around Dublin and then handing over €20 !!



Did he give you a tip for the guided tour? 

Marion


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## sam h (31 Jan 2010)

Well in fairness, it was €20.20........he knocked of the 20cent, I'm off shopping with my riches!!


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## JoeB (31 Jan 2010)

did he have photo ID up in the cab?

I thought taxi drivers had to demonstrate local knowledge in order to pass the PSV licence test.. I could be wrong on this but I did think so.. it sounds as if your guy would have problems finding Rathmines, or Swords...


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## shanegl (31 Jan 2010)

Next time it happens get out and take the next one.


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## truthseeker (1 Feb 2010)

I got one in Dublin a few weeks back and got in and said 'National Concert Hall please'. He looked at me blankly and indicated his sat nav and said 'what street is it on?'.
Whatever about estates, surely a taxi man should at least know where things like famous concert halls are in the city centre?


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## Latrade (1 Feb 2010)

JoeBallantin said:


> I thought taxi drivers had to demonstrate local knowledge in order to pass the PSV licence test...


 
I think these days the test is composed of how to turn on the Sat Nav.


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## JP1234 (1 Feb 2010)

A couple of years ago we got in a taxi on Dame Street and asked for Bewleys in Ballsbridge..he did not have a clue so we got out..next guy vaguely knew where Ballsbridge was but not Bewleys, we got fed up of directing him so got out and walked about a quarter of the way from the hotel. 

Neither of the drivers were Irish but we would still expect them to have a general knowledge of the city before getting behind the wheel.  ( and yes they both had id badges on display!)


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## Firefly (1 Feb 2010)

I find it funny when speaking on behalf of their members, the taxi union/repesentative body speak on behalf of their "profession".


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## DublinTexas (1 Feb 2010)

Well there are only 36 multiple-choice questions relating to your selected county (plus 54 questions relating to the rules and regulations) in the SPSV Test, that's all it takes to know your region and you only need 80% to pass. So that does not really demonstrate you know the area.

A driver needs to know more about the rules than the region he is working in, what for crazy way of doing things. 

I frequently choose the taxi that I want from the rank (to which I'm entitled) and if the driver does not know where I'm going and won't engage his satnav, I leave him and choose a different one (to which I'm also entitled) plus I send a text to the regulator. Those people should not be on the street.


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## Firefly (1 Feb 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> Well there are only 36 multiple-choice questions relating to your selected county (plus 54 questions relating to the rules and regulations) in the SPSV Test, that's all it takes to know your region and you only need 80% to pass. So that does not really demonstrate you know the area.
> 
> A driver needs to know more about the rules than the region he is working in, what for crazy way of doing things.
> 
> I frequently choose the taxi that I want from the rank (to which I'm entitled) and if the driver does not know where I'm going and won't engage his satnav, I leave him and choose a different one (to which I'm also entitled) plus I send a text to the regulator. Those people should not be on the street.


 
I'm really struggling with this post.


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## DublinTexas (1 Feb 2010)

Firefly said:


> I'm really struggling with this post.


 
Because?

The point I'm making is that the test to become a taxi driver is not really testing that they have local knowledge.

And that I leave a cab when someone does not know a major point in Dublin and than complain about the driver to the regulator.


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## csirl (1 Feb 2010)

> I frequently choose the taxi that I want from the rank (to which I'm entitled)


 
Are you allowed to choose any taxi in the queue? I always thought you had to take the first one?


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## DublinTexas (1 Feb 2010)

csirl said:


> Are you allowed to choose any taxi in the queue? I always thought you had to take the first one?


 
You can choose any taxi you want on a rank, drivers often try to tell you otherwise.

You can find more in the Consumer FAQ of the regulator [broken link removed].

*Am I entitled to choose any taxi at a rank?*

Yes, as a consumer your can choose whichever taxi you would like to travel in.​Sure the drivers might not like it but it's the law.


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## Firefly (1 Feb 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> Because?
> 
> The point I'm making is that the test to become a taxi driver is not really testing that they have local knowledge.
> 
> And that I leave a cab when someone does not know a major point in Dublin and than complain about the driver to the regulator.


 
I found it difficult to parse your sentences. 
Is there entitlement? I thought it was simply an accordant, business transaction.


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## DublinTexas (1 Feb 2010)

Firefly said:


> I found it difficult to parse your sentences.
> Is there entitlement? I thought it was simply an accordant, business transaction.


 
Well the regulator thinks I'm entitled....


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## Firefly (1 Feb 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> Well the regulator thinks I'm entitled....


 

*Am I entitled to choose any taxi at a rank?*

Yes, as a consumer your can choose whichever taxi you would like to travel in.

[broken link removed]

Spot on, I stand corrected.


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## liaconn (1 Feb 2010)

Good to know. I always feel like a bit of an eefit when I'm on my own and have to clamber in and out of one of those big minibus type cabs. I didn't realise you could opt for the next taxi in the queue.


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## papervalue (1 Feb 2010)

Some drivers lack of local knowledge is beyond belief. If i am getting tax to train station or airport now I tell the taxi driver which way to go as you would not believe some of the routes they have taken thinking thatI been from the countryside would not know the route they take is a site seeing route.

Recently if i get a taxi and driver does not know where he is going I ask to pull over immediately and tell him i get a different taxi. Why put up with poor service if driver does not know where he is going and some times people get a taxi to an area as they are unsure of the area themselves and assume a taxi driver would know.

In regard to taking the first taxi at rank, I have gone to middle of rank and have been told to take top taxi-  If this happens now i just cross the road pull a taxi on the street and assume rank does not want my business. Their is plenty taxi's out their now.


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## GarBow (2 Feb 2010)

papervalue said:


> In regard to taking the first taxi at rank, I have gone to middle of rank and have been told to take top taxi- If this happens now i just cross the road pull a taxi on the street and assume rank does not want my business. Their is plenty taxi's out their now.


 
Why on earth would you go to the middle taxi in the rank unless every one in front of it has annoyed you in some way? Just to be awkward?


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## RonanC (2 Feb 2010)

GarBow said:


> Why on earth would you go to the middle taxi in the rank unless every one in front of it has annoyed you in some way? Just to be awkward?


 
Your spending your money so you are entitled to choose what car you want to travel in, so i'd take a new Mercedes over a 15 year old heap anyday even if it was 10 cars back in the queue.


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## GarBow (2 Feb 2010)

RonanC said:


> Your spending your money so you are entitled to choose what car you want to travel in, so i'd take a new Mercedes over a 15 year old heap anyday even if it was 10 cars back in the queue.


 
Never really thought of it that way. Would you not consider that the driver at the front has been waiting there longer for a fare?

You'd be great fun outside an airport.


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## truthseeker (2 Feb 2010)

RonanC said:


> Your spending your money so you are entitled to choose what car you want to travel in, so i'd take a new Mercedes over a 15 year old heap anyday even if it was 10 cars back in the queue.


 

This is a good point. Recently I called a taxi to the house and the car that showed up was disgusting. Smelly, dirty, (driver was smelly and dirty too), bits of stuffing sticking out of the seat, sticky bits on the backs of the seats, grit and small bits of rubbish on the floors. The suspension of the car was also questionable, as were the brakes. Unfortunately we had tickets to a show and he was already late getting to us so we took him - but we phoned the taxi company the minute we got out and told them they were never, under any circumstances, to send such a badly maintained dirty smelly car to us again.

A few weeks later a friend was getting married in the registry office and he went to the taxi company (same company as our smelly car experience) in person a few days before to explain that he wanted a nice taxi for the morning of the wedding, as his wife to be would be wearing a long cream coat so imperative the car was spotless etc... They sent another dirty car, again in a position of not wanting to be late he took it, but was disapointed and complained to the taxi company afterwards.

Its a problem if the car you call to your home to collect you is in bad shape because if you have tickets to an event or some other engagement that you cant be late for youre stuck - you dont have time to make alternative arrangements.


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## RonanC (2 Feb 2010)

GarBow said:


> Never really thought of it that way. Would you not consider that the driver at the front has been waiting there longer for a fare?


 
It wouldn't really bother me to be honest. The sooner better regulation regarding the standard of taxi's comes in the better. Some of the cars on the road are a complete disgrace. 



GarBow said:


> You'd be great fun outside an airport.


 Been there, done it. Had a screamin match with one of them one day. A taxi driver at the top of the queue wouldnt bring me to the long term car park in Dublin airport, so I went to the next car, he said no too. So i said feck that, saw a taxi pull up to drop someone off and jumped in. The faces on the drivers in the queue was comical


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## liaconn (2 Feb 2010)

GarBow said:


> Why on earth would you go to the middle taxi in the rank unless every one in front of it has annoyed you in some way? Just to be awkward?


 
Females travelling alone would sometimes prefer a female driver. An elderly person would not necessarily want to have to climb in and out of one of those large cabs designed to take half a dozen passangers. Sometimes a particular driver might just make you feel uneasy. Or, as other posters have said, some cars look cleaner and more comfortable than others.


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## GarBow (2 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> Females travelling alone would sometimes prefer a female driver. An elderly person would not necessarily want to have to climb in and out of one of those large cabs designed to take half a dozen passangers. Sometimes a particular driver might just make you feel uneasy. Or, as other posters have said, some cars look cleaner and more comfortable than others.


 
Point taken but..

I just don't know anyone who would be that particular when choosing a cab. What if you were to order a private hire taxi to a hotel/bar/restaurant etc?

"yes that's right... I wan't a nice looking chap who makes me feel comfortable, a car with a low slung chassis, preferably a 2009 Merceds E class,.. Valeted... Oh and a blue one if you have it".

Just read Truthseekers post... Fair enough so.


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## truthseeker (2 Feb 2010)

GarBow said:


> Just read Truthseekers post... Fair enough so.


 
Just to add, when using that taxi company now my husband always specifies 'can you send a clean car please' on the phone


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## liaconn (2 Feb 2010)

C'mon, you know what we mean. I don't want to travel in a filthy taxi with a driver who stinks of stale smoke/BO. And, very occasionally, a particularly sleazy or surly looking driver would make me, as a female on my own, feel uneasy.

#sorry, that was a response to GarBow before s/he edited their post.


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## GarBow (2 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> C'mon, you know what we mean. I don't want to travel in a filthy taxi with a driver who stinks of stale smoke/BO. And, very occasionally, a particularly sleazy or surly looking driver would make me, as a female on my own, feel uneasy.
> 
> #sorry, that was a response to GarBow before s/he edited their post.


 
I do agree that taxi regulation leaves a lot to be desired in this country and yes, of course you should be able to pick up whatever cab you feel comfortable travelling in. 

I do also see taxi drivers' reasons for pointing you in the direction of the first cab, the one at the front of their queue. I guess it's a unwritten thing that they don't snatch fellow driver's fares. So i would find it petty if someone were to go to the middle of the queue puerly because they are entitled to, without good reason.

Truthseeker,

Why are you still using that same company?


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## truthseeker (2 Feb 2010)

GarBow said:


> Truthseeker,
> 
> Why are you still using that same company?


 
Because most of the time the cars/drivers are fine, they are the closest local taxi company (so they tend to get to you faster than other local ones) and they have indeed responded to our complaint and never sent us a dirty smelly car again (although they have sent guys with no knowledge of Dublin).

I think youre always going to get the odd blip like your booking being lost or forgotten, the odd dirty car etc....but overall theyre fine.


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## GarBow (2 Feb 2010)

On a side note. We visit family in the UK on a regular basis and actually use taxi's there quite a bit. The Borough Council regulate the taxis in the town. They all have to be one colour (white, but are different models). Might seem a bit OTT but it comes accross as very professional and all of the cars we have travelled in have been immaculate. Also never had any problems with directions etc. 

We were actually told that under their taxi licence test (again issued by the Bourough Council), that if they were unsure as to where an address was that they were allowed to look at a map ONCE, before starting the meter.

A couple of them had SatNavs but said they weren't really supposed to


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2010)

GarBow;996668
 
I just don't know anyone who would be that particular when choosing a cab.[/quote said:
			
		

> We are too to be honest. Since the arrival of Firefly junior we tend to eat out less than we'd like. When we do go out, we then eater in nicer restaurants and the last thing we want is to finish off the night in a banger. We've often waited for say the 2nd, 3rd, 4th car if we've had to or simply walked the direction home and flagged one down.
> 
> Perhaps, a solution would be to grade the cars. Gold star cabs should then be able to charge more, but should be vetted frequently etc? Then, maybe you should have to take the first Gold star cab in the rank? E.g, the car should be < 3 years old, in mint condition and the driver having passed a proper exam (like the black cabbies in London) etc. I'd happily pay for that.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2010)

GarBow said:


> Never really thought of it that way. Would you not consider that the driver at the front has been waiting there longer for a fare?


 have you considered that the driver with the nice car has invested more in their business in order to provide better a service and so deserved more support?


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## csirl (2 Feb 2010)

I'm amazed at the number of taxis who drive around with broken headlights, brakelights etc. as well as those idiots who drive with headlights switched off and fog lights on. Considering that they are supposed to be public service vehicles with members of the public travelling in them, there should be a zero tolerance stance taken by the Gardai.


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## papervalue (2 Feb 2010)

GarBow said:


> Why on earth would you go to the middle taxi in the rank unless every one in front of it has annoyed you in some way? Just to be awkward?


 

I am referring to rank where taxis are parked in foster place, by bank, their is no order to who is first in que


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## carpedeum (2 Feb 2010)

Taxi service has really deteriorated in recent months. One guy refused to take us to a destination two miles from the airport. Another guy tried to drive in a totally circuitous route from Dublin City Centre to our home, telling us he knew the best way of getting to our home of twenty years!  When ordering from home wenow ask for a clean safe taxi driven by an Irish driver and the taxi company never have a problem with the request. My daughter and her friends have had "problems" too with drivers over the past year making inappropriate offers and conversation. They now arrange lifts instead... no fun for the dads on Saturday night/Sunday morning!


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## liaconn (3 Feb 2010)

There seems to be a general problem at the airport, with drivers getting into a strop if someone who's 'only' going to Whitehall or Swords is next in the queue when they pull up at the rank. I know they may have been waiting in the holding bay for some time in order to get a place at the rank but surely the general public are entitled to avail of the taxi service if they need/want it without having to apologise or be told to 'get the bus' (not easy if you have bags and baggage or kids or are a lone female travelling late at night.)


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## callybags (3 Feb 2010)

I do know that in Heathrow they have a system in place whereby if you are only going within a certain radius of the airport ( I think it may be 3 or 5 miles), then the taxi can return and jump to the top of the queue.

As regards the varying standards of taxis and drivers, this needs to be seriously looked at by the regulator and strict guidlines implemented, and more importantly, enforced.

They could then say that you must take the first car at a rank ( with limited exceptions) and this would make it fairer for the taxis queuing.


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## sam h (3 Feb 2010)

I'd agree about the state of taxis.....I reckon I should do my best to support those who invest in their cars and try to nab them in future.

It is not nice to get into a smelly old car with with clapped out seats.


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## Firefly (3 Feb 2010)

I know this is off-topic, but I think the analysis of the pre & post deregulation of the taxi industry could be an interesting topic for an economics undergrad thesis. Granted, the price is set by the regulator, but the barriers to entry have been effectively removed. The regulator should be able to provide figures on the number of taxis running along with the amount of complaints recevied, average ages of new / existing taxis etc.


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## Caveat (3 Feb 2010)

Lots of radio ads at the moment advising you of your right to have a receipt which details the time, fare, plate no. etc.

Speaks volumes IMO.


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## RonanC (3 Feb 2010)

Firefly said:


> The regulator should be able to provide figures on the number of taxis running along with the amount of complaints recevied, average ages of new / existing taxis etc.


 
Stats are [broken link removed]


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## dereko1969 (3 Feb 2010)

carpedeum said:


> When ordering from home wenow ask for a clean safe taxi driven by an Irish driver and the taxi company never have a problem with the request. My daughter and her friends have had "problems" too with drivers over the past year making inappropriate offers and conversation. They now arrange lifts instead... no fun for the dads on Saturday night/Sunday morning!


 
That's just racist and the taxi company shouldn't tolerate it.

Have your daughter and her friends complained to the Garda and the Taxi Regulator about these inappropriate offers and conversations?


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## EvilDoctorK (3 Feb 2010)

In Shanghai the Taxi drivers have Star ratings .. prominently displayed inside (and outside? - can't recall) based on their competence

[broken link removed]

Wonder if that would work in Dublin?


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## carpedeum (4 Feb 2010)

dereko1969 said:


> That's just racist and the taxi company shouldn't tolerate it.
> 
> Have your daughter and her friends complained to the Garda and the Taxi Regulator about these inappropriate offers and conversations?



Nothing racist about it. Totally realistic. Why is the racist card always dealt for any complaint about non-Irish residents? The majority of immigrants in recent years have enriched this country, economically and culturally, and made Ireland a better place for us to rear our children, but, like the Irish there are chancers amongst them.

We took 17 taxis between November 1st and January 6th. 6 drivers did not know where to go - all 6 were non-Irish. Destinations included: Leopardstown Industrial Estate, Clonshaugh Industrial Estate, Churchtown, Damastown in Clonee and SUTTON! I rest my case! In London and other capital cities we have never encountered problems. Training, knowledge  tests and administrative controls here are too weak and the use of "cosy" drivers by the taxi owners is too common - perhaps they are to blame for employing foreign nationals desperate for work at any price.  

Regarding my daughter's experience, regular taxi customers and Gardai will tell you this is now par for the course and, besides being difficult to prove, resources are not sufficient to investigate all instances.


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## Complainer (4 Feb 2010)

carpedeum said:


> Nothing racist about it. Totally realistic. Why is the racist card always dealt for any complaint about non-Irish residents? The majority of immigrants in recent years have enriched this country, economically and culturally, and made Ireland a better place for us to rear our children, but, like the Irish there are chancers amongst them.


Indeed, it is racist. What you need is a taxi driver who knows their way around Dublin, regardless of where they were born.


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## Purple (4 Feb 2010)

complainer said:


> indeed, it is racist. What you need is a taxi driver who knows their way around dublin, regardless of where they were born.



+1


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## Firefly (4 Feb 2010)

I can see your frustration at getting a driver not knowing how to get your destination - especially when you have given the details to the taxi company (standard q is where are you & where are you going). Asking for an Irish only driver is IMO racist. Btw, I've had plenty of "Irish" drivers not knowing where I want to get to too!

Perhaps, the next time you should confirm with the taxi company that the driver being sent knows how to get to your destination.


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## papervalue (5 Feb 2010)

just a basic point, i would get a taxi a good few times a year from harolds cross area to airport around 4am

the most direct route i find is up to christchurch down the hill cross the bridge and straight on(few streets) to dorset street costs under 25 euro, i think around 24.20 

a lot of taxis go christchurch down the hill, cross the bridge, take a right down the quays with all the traffic lights up gardiner street to dorset street and them normal route- cost more than 25.80 even 26 plus.

the above is just a basic example- why pay more than 25 when you are going to airport and the exact cost from experience is under 25

i know i am only saving 1-2 euro by asking driver to go cheaper way but it saves breaking another 5 or 10 euro to get the extra euro they are owed.

also on receipt their is a difference in kms on same desitation.

my point is i would expect driver on this most direct route(all main road) to know most direct way. sometimes it is embarrasing telling them what way to go as i learned not you cant assume they will go the most direct way.

to me it makes no difference what nationality driver is as long as they are aware of where they are going and no detours on way


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## Latrade (5 Feb 2010)

dereko1969 said:


> That's just racist and the taxi company shouldn't tolerate it.


 
On simple reading to the oversensitive pinko I'd agree, but why then isn't it sexist that female passengers can insist on a female driver?

However, before we start defaming innocent posters, let’s give it some perspective: at worst it's xenophobia, a far cry from racist. So let’s not chastise or label someone as a racist because they feel more comfortable with an Irish driver. Again, what's the difference between that and a female passenger/driver?

There are actual racist incidents with drivers from other nationalities, where there is abuse up to theft and violence; I don't see this being anywhere near the same league. 

I'll be honest and say when I'm in a shop or service environment I tend to look for an Irish national mainly from the experience of trying to explain or resolve my query with someone where their conversational English isn't strong. It's nothing to do with a prejudice against that person, their country or skin colour or creed, it's just from experience it's more expedient to have the query dealt with by someone fluent in English (which would tend to imply again from experience an Irish national).

If we're all perfect and have never ever felt uneasy or frustrated with service or in the company of a "foreigner" or groups of them, then great you're the perfect Liberal and I commend you. If you've never rolled your eyes or passed comment at the lack of "Irish" people working in the service sector or even the "Polish" Isle at the Spar or the Lithuanian supermarkets, then again I commend your perfect liberal ideology.

If you have, it doesn't mean you're racist, it doesn't mean we can start tracing your family tree back to the Third Reich, it just means you're human. 

Having a preference for Irish taxi drivers or service staff doesn't mean that in my spare time I'm knocking up crosses to start burning on lawns. It doesn't have any reflection on any aspect of character other than most human of all human traits: irrational.  It’s not dangerous, it’s not a curse on society, it’s not jingoistic, it’s not going to affect or harm another single living person on this planet. 

Yours.

Enoch Powell


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## Firefly (5 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> On simple reading to the oversensitive pinko I'd agree, but why then isn't it sexist that female passengers can insist on a female driver?


 
I would assume a female driver would be requested from a female passenger from a safety perspective.

I take your other points - speaking for myself, I view the OPs comment as racially discriminating rather than racist in the stronger, xenophobic sense.


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## Latrade (5 Feb 2010)

Firefly said:


> I would assume a female driver would be requested from a female passenger from a safety perspective.
> 
> I take your other points - speaking for myself, I view the OPs comment as racially discriminating rather than racist in the stronger, xenophobic sense.


 
Xenophobia is not racisim. But I would make the point that I don't even think this case is xenophobic as the term implies a "fear" whereas in the case described it was more a matter of efficiency. 

Not every choice can be so easily pigeon-holed as either being racist or not. I detest the way comment about any non-irish individual and efficiency of service has become taboo on the basis of race. I'm more than able to identify and discuss the great benefits to a society from immigration, but no system or cultural shift is perfect. I don't see why to offer any criticism of such means someone is racist nor that it makes someone "racist" for having a preference for dealing with an Irish national.

I still don't see a difference with the female driver. Isn't that sexism? Just how many incidents are there of violence, agression, or inappropriate behaviour from male taxi drivers to female passengers? Are there enough to rationally justify selecting a specific gender of the driver? 

By that same token, I've had conversations with taxi drivers where they have admitted that they won't actually stop for a single female fare at night because they fear being accused of sexual assault. 

I'd wager we'd say that the former is ok but the latter is not ok.


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## liaconn (5 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> .
> 
> I still don't see a difference with the female driver. Isn't that sexism? Just how many incidents are there of violence, agression, or inappropriate behaviour from male taxi drivers to female passengers? Are there enough to rationally justify selecting a specific gender of the driver?
> 
> ...


 
The taxi driver has chosen to go into a particular service and is then refusing to supply that service to a huge part of his customer base.

Your point about females isn't really fair. There are lots of situations where females have been attacked by males. Therefore, some females don't feel comfortable in *any* situation where they are alone with an unknown man. That's not discrimination.


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## Complainer (5 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> I'll be honest and say when I'm in a shop or service environment I tend to look for an Irish national mainly from the experience of trying to explain or resolve my query with someone where their conversational English isn't strong. It's nothing to do with a prejudice against that person, their country or skin colour or creed, it's just from experience it's more expedient to have the query dealt with by someone fluent in English (which would tend to imply again from experience an Irish national).
> 
> If we're all perfect and have never ever felt uneasy or frustrated with service or in the company of a "foreigner" or groups of them, then great you're the perfect Liberal and I commend you. If you've never rolled your eyes or passed comment at the lack of "Irish" people working in the service sector or even the "Polish" Isle at the Spar or the Lithuanian supermarkets, then again I commend your perfect liberal ideology.
> 
> ...


You're missing the point Enoch. You may well have a requirement for your taxi driver to have a certain level of English and a certain level of Dublin knowledge. However, if you have a requirement based around where your driver was born, this is indeed racist.


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## Latrade (5 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> The taxi driver has chosen to go into a particular service and is then refusing to supply that service to a huge part of his customer base.
> 
> Your point about females isn't really fair. There are lots of situations where females have been attacked by males. Therefore, some females don't feel comfortable in *any* situation where they are alone with an unknown man. That's not discrimination.


 
Does a taxi driver or any service provider not have the right to chose who they provide a service to? 

Why is it fair and not discriminatory to view every male as a potential attacker and isolate them or not do business with them?

I don't see why one form of discrimination is reasonable and another gets someone labelled a racist.


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## liaconn (5 Feb 2010)

Well, what I'm saying is that if you choose to become a taxi driver it's a bit rich to then say you won't pick up female passangers because you're nervous of them. That's a bit like someone choosing to become a nurse but then saying they won't deal with anyone who's bleeding because they can't stand the sight of blood.


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## Latrade (5 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> You're missing the point Enoch. You may well have a requirement for your taxi driver to have a certain level of English and a certain level of Dublin knowledge. However, if you have a requirement based around where your driver was born, this is indeed racist.


 
I completely disagree. If based upon personal experience the non-national drivers either don't have good enough english or don't know their way around the city centre/my location and in opposition to that Irish drivers tend to have a greater familiarity, that's nothing to do with any opinions on superiority of the Irish race to others or fear or hatred. 

If we really want to tackle racism them we shouldn't be making every petty small decision a matter of over the top liberal sentimentalities. It does far more harm to a worthwhile and essential cause by claiming every choice of domestic over foriegn in every circumstance is racist. It just isn't.


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## Latrade (5 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> Well, what I'm saying is that if you choose to become a taxi driver it's a bit rich to then say you won't pick up female passangers because you're nervous of them. That's a bit like someone choosing to become a nurse but then saying they won't deal with anyone who's bleeding because they can't stand the sight of blood.


 
Ok, just be clear on how the what's accepted and what isn't is:

It is ok to be fearful of a statistically very low event such as assault and discriminate on gender if you're the passenger or more to the point female.

It isn't ok to he fearful of a statistically very low event of being wrongly accused of an assault and discriminate on gender if you're the driver and more to the point male.

It is ok to have female only taxi services that will only cater for females.

It is ok for non-national taxi and driver and other services to only cater for various non-national clients.

It isn't ok for male or Irish taxi firms or service providers to do the same.


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## Complainer (5 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> I completely disagree. If based upon personal experience the non-national drivers either don't have good enough english or don't know their way around the city centre/my location and in opposition to that Irish drivers tend to have a greater familiarity, that's nothing to do with any opinions on superiority of the Irish race to others or fear or hatred.


How many customers have experience of ALL the non-Irish national drivers in Dublin? Zero. 

To make assumptions about the abilities of ALL drivers of given nationalities based on the experiences with SOME drivers is racist.

I've sometimes had difficulty understanding Irish drivers with strong Dub or strong country accents. Does that mean that ALL Irish drivers are bad communicators?


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## Latrade (5 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> How many customers have experience of ALL the non-Irish national drivers in Dublin? Zero.
> 
> To make assumptions about the abilities of ALL drivers of given nationalities based on the experiences with SOME drivers is racist.
> 
> I've sometimes had difficulty understanding Irish drivers with strong Dub or strong country accents. Does that mean that ALL Irish drivers are bad communicators?


 
It's irrational, not racist. At worst it is xenophobic, but even that's a huge leap. 

My objection is to the throwing around of racism at each and every turn. My objection is that there is no perfect liberal out there who doesn't at some point in time display the good old human trait of being irrational and making a choice against the non-national. Not one. 

Just because there are times where a person has a preference and comfort with a more known set of circumstances doesn't mean they're a racist. The poster isn't saying send all foreigners home or white Irish only taxi drivers, it was just that in their experience (what else can they go on?) they've had a better and more efficient service when they'd used Irish drivers and so they have a preference for that.

Heck even the socially conscious unions haven't exactly been too forthcoming in protecting the foreign national worker rights of late in favour of their Irish colleagues. So much so many foreign national workers have had to set up their own unions.

How many female customers have experience of all male drivers in Dublin? Zero.

To make assumptions the assault potential of every driver based upon their gender on the experience of a very small number of events is sexist.


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## Complainer (5 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> It's irrational, not racist. At worst it is xenophobic, but even that's a huge leap.
> 
> My objection is to the throwing around of racism at each and every turn. My objection is that there is no perfect liberal out there who doesn't at some point in time display the good old human trait of being irrational and making a choice against the non-national. Not one.
> 
> ...


I don't disagree with you about the absence of 'the perfect liberal' or the sexist requirement for female drivers or the lack of protection for non-Irish national workers here. But none of these change the fundamental issue.

To ask for a taxi driver based on race rather than based on abilities is racist.


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## truthseeker (5 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> To ask for a taxi driver based on race rather than based on abilities is racist.


 
I dont think the poster did say they asked for a driver based on race though - they asked for one based on nationality - can I have an Irish driver.


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## DB74 (5 Feb 2010)

Insurance companies are entitled to make decisions against whole swathes of people on the basis of general assumptions about their driving habits which are formed based on past experiences and the likely impacts of insuring those people.

This is not illegal or seen as discriminatory by the Law of the Land.

The poster's comments about preferring Irish drivers is merely the same scenario but on a smaller scale.

No racism here IMO.


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## Latrade (5 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> To ask for a taxi driver based on race rather than based on abilities is racist.


 
In your opinion, fine. In my opinion it isn't. There is no incitement to hatred, there is no incitement to violence, eradication, removal from service, the poster isn't asking others to do the same. It's a simple preference based upon personal experience. 

If based on experience I find a better service from Irish service providers for whatever reason (language, communication, etc) and have had bad experiences from non-nationals on the same criteria, then that's not racism. 

Racism would be if my first choice prior to any experience was to pick Irish at the detriment of non-nationals and then to start promulgating false accusations against the non-nationals and even to start promulgating hatred towards them. 

None of which was the case in the poster's example.

The fundamental issue to me is that someone can make a choice on who provides them with a service based upon their own experience (note the criteria of having to have experienced every single taxi driver is a nonsensical position. In that event we'd never be able to make any decisions based upon a personal preference) without it the need to label them a racist.

I completely stand by a female's right to chose a female driver. I've no problems with female only taxi services. I've no issue if non-nationals make the same choices for their taxi services. They're all based on the same irrational lack of evidence, etc. I do disagree with the fact that just because an Irish man chooses to make the same irrational decision that they are vilified for that choice that they get branded with the RACIST label.

I'm not a racist, some of my best friends are non-nationals....(joke). But in all fairness, I hope my liberal credentials are intact. I've signed up for, protested for, marched for and even got a few cuts 'n bruises in my time as a vocal opponent of racism and fascism. 

I'm not saying that puts me above anyone else as a commentator, it's just I see more harm than good to a cause when we confuse a basic human decision making process with some hurtful and superiority motive. I've encountered true racism and it's frightening and vile, this just isn't anywhere in the same league.


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## DB74 (5 Feb 2010)

Very well said Latrade


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## Complainer (5 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> Insurance companies are entitled to make decisions against whole swathes of people on the basis of general assumptions about their driving habits which are formed based on past experiences and the likely impacts of insuring those people.
> 
> This is not illegal or seen as discriminatory by the Law of the Land.
> 
> ...


Nonsense. Insurance rates aren't based on 'general assumptions'. They are based on hard actuarial data.


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## DB74 (5 Feb 2010)

The original poster's reasons for preferring an Irish driver are also based on hard data, learned through experience.

Insurance companies make general assumptions on a driver's ability. It may be based on past historical data yes but they are still assumptions.

And whether you like it or not, no insurance company can know anything about my or your or anybody else's driving abilities.

They may hide behind "hard actuarial data" as you put it but at the end of the day they are lumping me in with other people who are the same age etc etc as me.

I could have 10 years of no claims behind me and my policy will still increase as a result of a raft of claims by people in the same motor insurance category as me.


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## carpedeum (5 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> Indeed, it is racist. What you need is a taxi driver who knows their way around Dublin, regardless of where they were born.



Dear Complainer and Dereko1969, I resent the accusation. You are very one dimensional and simplistic in your thinking. I am not a racist. I don't usually divulge much personal details, but, I recently finished as a senior manager in a greenfield start-up. I directly employed between Dec 2007 and Decembet 2009, 81 people with 62 reporting directly to me. The majority were non-Irish - East European, Asian, African and West European - above minimum wage, vhi and optional PRSA (askaboutmoney was a great source of advice here).

I suggest that you cast an eye around you. Talk to foreign nationals who are sick and tired of some fellow nationals giving the majority of them a bad name. As I already stated Ireland is a better place for the presence of non-Irish in terms of cultural diversity and economic growth. I see my children being more accepting and tolerant and more educated as a result. I do not sterotype by race or creed, but, can recognize when I am being duped. Inefficiency is inefficiency. Deception is deception. Dishonesty is dishonesty. Failings are not race specific. Failings are part of the human condition. I was merely highlighting our truthful experience of a customer service where local geographical  knowledge and English language skills are prerequisites in delivering the service, but, were deficient in these individuals.


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## Complainer (5 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> The original poster's reasons for preferring an Irish driver are also based on hard data, learned through experience.
> 
> Insurance companies make general assumptions on a driver's ability. It may be based on past historical data yes but they are still assumptions.


OK, so one customer's experience with a few drivers is now equivalent to years of data analysed by actuaries? 

Is that you, Charlie McCreevy? Your application of back-of-the-envelope calculations to big problems has cost the State billions, so now you want to screw up the taxi industry as well.


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## Firefly (5 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> Is that you, Charlie McCreevy? Your application of back-of-the-envelope calculations to big problems has cost the State billions, so now you want to screw up the taxi industry as well.


 
Like this one perhaps? 
http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=864


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## DB74 (5 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> OK, so one customer's experience with a few drivers is now equivalent to years of data analysed by actuaries?
> 
> Is that you, Charlie McCreevy? Your application of back-of-the-envelope calculations to big problems has cost the State billions, so now you want to screw up the taxi industry as well.


 
Not much point in continuing the debate if you're going to resort to insults.


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## Firefly (5 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> Not much point in continuing the debate if you're going to resort to insults.


 
And a deflection


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## Complainer (5 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> Not much point in continuing the debate if you're going to resort to insults.


Not much point in continuing the debate if you are going to equate anecdotal experience in dealing with a few drivers with actuarial data.


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## DB74 (5 Feb 2010)

So I win then

Nah nah nah nah nah!

You gotta love Friday evenings.


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## Complainer (5 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> So I win then
> 
> Nah nah nah nah nah!
> 
> You gotta love Friday evenings.


Sorry, can't stay to discuss it further - my taxi is waiting. Hold on, Isaac, I'm coming....


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## Firefly (5 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> Sorry, can't stay to discuss it further - my taxi is waiting. Hold on, Isaac, I'm coming....


 
I hope you're paying for this taxi yourself


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## Rois (5 Feb 2010)

Latrade said:


> I still don't see a difference with the female driver. Isn't that sexism? Just how many incidents are there of violence, agression, or inappropriate behaviour from male taxi drivers to female passengers? Are there enough to rationally justify selecting a specific gender of the driver?


 
Two incidents in my case with male taxi drivers:

1.  Asked me how I would like to pay him! (non-national)

2.  Told me I was sitting on a goldmine and didn't have to pay if... (irish driver).

There was no agression used in either case, but I was very happy just to get home safely.  I do now have a preference for female taxi drivers when I'm travelling alone.


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## Eanair (6 Feb 2010)

Are there any regulations on the question of providing change for a €50 note? I get a taxi to and from the airport every week, and have had a number of drivers give out to me about having to change a €50 (on a fare of about €25), and one particularly unpleasant driver from the airport who waited until we were on the motorway to say that he hoped I didn't need change of a €50 (so no way of getting another taxi), insisted that I go into a shop to buy something I didn't need to break the €50 and then told me that he knew I was trouble from the minute I got into the car because I said I didn't think it was my responsibility to have to spend money to make his life easier. I paid him there and then and got another taxi home (unfortunately didn't get his car number to make a complaint - it was late at night and I was already nervous), but surely it's not unreasonable to expect taxis to be able to change a common note? I dread to think what impression a tourist to Dublin would have got had they been in the car with him.

I now ask before getting in whether the driver can change a €50, but I don't believe I should have to.

Edited to add: the company I use to get to the airport (NRC) are invariably courteous and I've never had a problem with them.


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## Padraigb (6 Feb 2010)

You have no right to require anybody with whom you do business to make change. Most people in business treat it as a normal courtesy, and one of the things they do to make customers happy.

Drivers of taxis that you hail on the street or hire at taxi ranks do not think in terms of your being a prospect for repeat business.


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## 1carrot2 (6 Feb 2010)

For years, I have been appalled at the standards of vehicle that are allowed to operate as taxis.
If you are charging people money to travel in your vehicle, then it should be of a certain minimum standard.
Like anything, I think you need to invest in your business, and take some pride in it.
Last Sunday at a rank, the first car was a 93 reg. and the second was an 89 reg. so I approached the 3rd car and drove home in comfort.
I would do this when flagging down a taxi also i.e. let clapped out ones pass before hailing a decent one.
I have lost count of the times I have driven in dirty taxis, and also the amount of times where the personal hygiene of the driver in an enclosed space leaves a lot to be desired.
I have driven in cars where the driver has to keep rubbing the windscreen with a cloth as there is no defogger.
When calling my local taxi company,  I would have no problem saying I want a half decent car.
I am in the minority, but when there are so many clean comfortable taxis, why do people pay for journeys in the other ones?


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## annet (7 Feb 2010)

I have got a number of taxies from Dublin Airport and had the usual complaints of having to wait two hours in a queue (when I tell them where I need to go) and how pressed they are since de-reg.  

So now I have chosen to withdraw my custom.  When I arrive in Dublin airport I immediately telephone a taxi company and arrange a pick up from departure levels from my regular taxi company whose drivers have no probs bringing me from point a to b without complaining.  There is no waiting in a queue as the taxi does be there waiting at door two at departures level by the time I get through arrivals.  

I would suggest that other passengers do the same!


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