# Holding onto deposit



## paulpd (30 Jul 2009)

I am (or was due) to hand back the deposit to the tenants tomorrow. After looking at the house last night I have noticed the following :

- Large double glazed window broken. They said local kids did it.
- The bathroom tiles are destroyed with black mildew. The bath itself is ruined by lime / mildew. The plumber told me I definitely need to replace the bath as I'd never clean it, unless I got it resprayed. It's a steel bath.
- The back patioed area is covered in 2 or 3 foot weeds. It's like a jungle.
- Kitchen area full of dirty dishes. (They knew I was calling down but nobody there when I got there)
- A few months ago I went down and ended up removing 12 full black sacks (two car loads) of empty bottles from the back yard purely as a favour and to have the place look half decent.
- I asked them to have it tidy for a viewing last Tues. I was mortified by the state of the place. Clothes on backs of chairs, dirty kitchen, bedrooms extremely messy, etc. Needless to say the girl and her mother didn't get back to me.

Finally, due to one of them getting let go last Jan I dropped the rent by a further E400 a month (after dropping it by E300 in Dec as everyone else seemed to be dropping rent) which almost broke me. I said "we'll review again when the lease is up end of July". I got a text message 2 WEEKS ago to say they were moving out on the 31st.

I feel I'm perfectly entitled to hold onto a portion of the deposit?? A letting agent let it to them for me last year and there was a full lease in place. I'm not using the agent this year due to being very broke so I can't really ask them to do an inspection / calculate what amount of deposit to hold onto.

Thanks a lot.


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## cleverclogs7 (30 Jul 2009)

wow sounds nasty.how abaout bills ? paid up to date ? i would tell tenants (today)that unless property isnt cleaned up to the standared in which you let it to them,that you will be holding onto the deposit.did they not inform you about the window when it happened.

i would have someone come around(today)about replacing the window  as hed be able to tell you if it was broken from the outside .im sure lease states the property must be maintained,lawns cut,windows cleaned and so on.


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## paulpd (30 Jul 2009)

The lease does say about maintaining the place. Also says about one months notice. When I replied to the tenants text by saying "I presume you mean the end of August as you must give at least a months notice" he was of the opinion that when the lease is up the lease is up. (ie 31 July).

The bins are over E200 in arrears. I mentioned this to him and also that he's to get an ESB and gas reading. He said he'd look after the bills.

Looks like the window was broken from the outside so that you wouldnt know what happened there. They never reported the window to me. The other annoying thing is that both evenings I've been there this week the front chubb lock and the alarm weren't on, eventhough nobody was in the place. Very annoying!

The frustrating thing is I've literally just got a call 2 mins ago from someone wanting to view it and I obviously have to explain that the house WILL be in top condition again in the next week. First impressions and all that though!

Thanks


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## Bronte (30 Jul 2009)

First impression are that you've rented to one of the worst type of tenant's.  Did alarm bells not ring when you removed 12 bin bags of rubbish?  After the litany of the problems you actually believe they will do anything they say ?

You need to take pictures of all the damage in case the tenants take a case against you to the PRTB.  What is the cost of all the repairs you have to do?  This is the amount you subtract from the deposit.  

You may be able to claim the broken window off your insurance.  You'll have to give the tenants the benefit of the doubt in relation to who broke the window.  

You need to be very careful about who you rent to and intitially you should be checking on new tenant's every week until you know you can trust them.  After that once a month checking should be ok.


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## paulpd (30 Jul 2009)

These tenants came with references through an agency that I used for many years.  Of course alarm bells rang when I saw the bottles but at the same time I was just glad to have tenants and have the place ticking over with regards mortgage repayments. I warned them to keep it clear in future. Their excuse was that they havent got a car to bring them to the bottle bank. I wasn't accepting that. I'm sure a car will be available when they want to move all their stuff over the weekend!

For the next tenants (hopefully girls!) I'll drop down once a month to tday the back yard for them. This way I'll get to have a look at the place.

My main question though is whether I'm correct in thinking I'm entitled to hold onto a portion of the deposit? The bath alone plus a few tiles that'll have to be replaced is going to cost cE400 supplied and fitted. Cleaning inside and outside too.

Does the letting agency fee that is paid at the start of the lease cover an inspection at the end of the lease?


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## cleverclogs7 (30 Jul 2009)

im a tenant and thinking from your point of view.I would hold onto all the deposit.get the tenants out asap and clean the property up and let new people come and view it as soon as possible.they have a copy of the lease and if they havent read it then thats there problem.30 days notice and so on.use the money to clean up the property.


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## Howitzer (30 Jul 2009)

Maybe I'm missing something but what exactly have your tenants done wrong?

The house is messy but they live there - clothes on the back on chairs, dishes in the sink, weeds in the garden - doesn't seem particularly unusual to me. I know it can be hard to articulate the difference between messy and disgusting. They haven't moved out yet so these may be resolved by tomorrow (probably not, but maybe). In the past I've simply cleaned the place up before handing back to the landlord, they did an inspection and forwarded on the deposit when they were satisfied.

The arrears on the bins and any utilities are their problem. The lease does indeed end when it ends. The mildew in the bathroom may be caused by a structural problem. The window is covered by insurance and may not be their fault.

Until they actually move out and you estimate the cost of cleaning - over and above what would be considered normal - then I don't really see the problem. They paid their rent and honored the lease.

Going down the road of only renting to girls and calling in them on a regular basis might be considered a bit creepy. These don't sound like the worst type of tenants, more like the norm.


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## samanthajane (30 Jul 2009)

You cant hold onto all the deposit if the damage doesn't come to that amount...althought in this case it might do. 

Check that all the bills are paid off first and if they are then you start doing your sums. Anything apart from normal wear and tear should come off. This is going to be your time cleaning the place as well so i think you can claim that as well. Going by what you said i dread to think of how long it's going to take you.


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## tweety76 (30 Jul 2009)

Agree with Samantha Jane, issue them with a letter stating you will contact them within 7 days with deposit to be returned after a full inspection of the property of the place. Take photos of the damage now before you start removing anything/same with back garden.

Re:
 feel I'm perfectly entitled to hold onto a portion of the deposit?? A letting agent let it to them for me last year and there was a full lease in place. I'm not using the agent this year due to being very broke so I can't really ask them to do an inspection / calculate what amount of deposit to hold onto.
Anything that needs full replacing and is not just "old" i.e damaged or missing goods they should be held resposible for. You need to calculate a realistic cost taking any depreciation into account. Do you have a picture of the bath in pristine condition before the property was let? If so this is proof that you can charge them for damage repairs, if not then its a tricky one.

I would also recommend ringing the IPOA( Irish Property owners association ) for advice, they were very helpful in dealing with a similar query that I had

Good luck


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## dereko1969 (30 Jul 2009)

Howitzer said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but what exactly have your tenants done wrong?
> 
> The house is messy but they live there - clothes on the back on chairs, dishes in the sink, weeds in the garden - doesn't seem particularly unusual to me. I know it can be hard to articulate the difference between messy and disgusting. They haven't moved out yet so these may be resolved by tomorrow (probably not, but maybe). In the past I've simply cleaned the place up before handing back to the landlord, they did an inspection and forwarded on the deposit when they were satisfied.
> 
> ...


 
I'd agree with everything here, it is their house and having it tidy to your satisfaction *before* they've moved out to facilitate you having viewings is not on in my opinion. 

The lease ends when it ends, had you issued them with a new lease before the end of June or discussed rent increase/decrease/status quo, if not you hadn't given them a month's notice either.

The bath to me sounds like a structural problem.

If, when they have moved out, the level of cleanliness is sufficient to warrant significant expenditure on cleaning then you could subtract part of that from the deposit. Remember it is a cost of doing business. My view is that a deposit should only be deducted from in very rare situations, where damage that can clearly be laid at the door of the tenants is proven.


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## paulpd (30 Jul 2009)

Apart from reducing the rent by E5,000 since January, I also got one of them a double bed when he requested. This happened about 2 months after they moved in. I removed 12 black bags of bottles for them. Surely that was their responsibility?? I'm a landlord 14years now and have never witheld any deposits. This time the costs are above the usual costs in relation to getting a place ready for new tenants. 

Part of the arrangement (me reducing the rent substantially) was that they'd keep the place reasonably tidy to allow me have viewings. I gave them more than a weeks notice about a viewing but on Tues last the place was in a bad way. I have photos of the bath and showed them around in work. Everyone agreed that it was a disgrace. I had professinal cleaners in last year before they moved in. Surely I'm entitled to get the place back in similar condition??

I've done far more for them throughout the year.

As far as I know, regardless of whether a lease is up or not, a months notice is required from either party as to whether the lease is to be renewed or not?? I got 2 weeks notice via text message.


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## samanthajane (30 Jul 2009)

I seriously consider not bothering with how much time they have given you. Yes it's only 2 weeks but it the important thing not to just them out of your property in as less hassel as possible. 

I doubt there going to be pleased that your going to be holding even 'some' if not all of their deposit. If they think they might not get anything back whats to stop them from trrashing the place. 

In 14 years if this is the first major thing that has happened then you are very lucky. 

2 experience once as a landlord and i'll never do it again, and then another where half of my deposit was kept, very unfair in my opinion but what could i do. They had white carpets in the bathroom and no matter how much i cleaned them with a machine i was unable to keep them spotless. I also asked if i could put up shelves they agreed and they took money away to fix them, which i said i would do the landlord said it's not a big problem i'll do it, and then charged me for him doing it. And the gardens ( yes more than 1 ) 3 sides of the house were surrounded. He said he would provide a lawn mower and never did. I used to pay a local lad untill he decided not to do it anymore. Got a bit over grown and i couldn't afford to by one. He then said he would keep the grass cut but failed to inform me he was going to charge me for this. 

I was so angry at losing 725 euro i very well could of made things very difficult for him. 

But karma came around cause i know the people that have moved in after me have more than trashed the place and it took him months of not being paid rent before he got them out.


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## paulpd (30 Jul 2009)

I'm not saying I havent had hassle - I've had loads, between several broken windows, at least 3 break-ins over the years, wheelie bin burned and as a result the side of the house badly smoke damaged, etc etc. I've just never had a place kept in such bad condition by the tenants until now.  With things so tight and rents low, I'm just frustrated that it's me that has to bear all this cost. How anyone can live in a place kept the way it is is beyond me!

Thanks.

Anyways, I'll have a chat with them when I see them.


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## samanthajane (30 Jul 2009)

well there are some messy and dirty people out there. 

It is unfair that after you said someone was coming to view the place it was in a tip. I doubt it will be cleaned that well if thats how they live but you will have to take into consideration if they do clean.


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## mercman (30 Jul 2009)

The broken window may not be covered by Insurance. When did it happen ?? Your Insurance will have an excess amount which could be more than the repair. The bins are your problem as they are not Invoiced to the tenants, but the landlord. You will have to receive confirmation that the ESB and gas have been paid. Did they move these utilities into their own names?. For the sake of ease, tell them that you are not in a position to repay the deposit at the moment, until all the works have been done. Get a forwarding address so you know where they have gone to.


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## paulpd (31 Jul 2009)

The window broke some time ago. I only found out when I noticed it last week. It was replaced yesterday at a cost of E240. Utilities are in their name. I told them to get readings up to today and then settle them. They're only moving 2 doors up - they needed a third double bedroom as someone else wants to live with them. Other than that they said the house was great and in a great location - Ranelagh.

The amazing thing is one of them told me last night that the bath was in the same condition when they moved in. I'd love to be able to post a photo that I have of it. NO WAY was it like that. I know for a fact.

Thankfully I've had a fair bit of interest in the place and a few viewings set up for early next week so fingers crossed. A busy weekend of cleaning for me!


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## Bronte (31 Jul 2009)

It's much easier to rent a property when the tenant's have left.  If you have to clean the house yourself you cannot deduct your own labour from tax, you can if you get a professional cleaner.  If you volunteered to get rid of the bottles than you shouldn't complain about it.  I've cleared out more than once disgusting fridges, ovens, toilets not to mention binbags of rotting rubbish even from tenants whom I consider brillant.  Anyone who pays their rent on time, stays long term, doesn't do any serious damage is a good tenant in my book.    Any utility bill not in your name has nothing to do with you.  Anything above normal wear and tear can be withheld from the deposit, that said most landlords ignore petty things (weeds, cleaning, repainting) as it's just the cost of being in business.  It might be easier if you maintained the garden yourself, it's rare the tenant who notices a week or a piece of rubbish that blows in from the street.  I don't see anything creepy about checking your property out from time to time as long as you give the tenant's adequate notice. You've owned for nearly 14 years surely you have most of the mortgage paid down by now so I can't figure out how reducing the rent would be a burden.


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## paulpd (31 Jul 2009)

I co-owned the house with my sister until Dec 2007. I then bought her out of it and re-mortgaged it to do so, hence the large repayments.

I think what's getting to me is that there's so much more to do to the place this year than any other. The bottles have again built up - at least 150 of them sitting outside the back door when I was down there last night! 

Once I get the place re-let I'm sure the stress levels will reduce for another 12 months!


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## Helenl123 (14 Aug 2009)

Paul, personally i'd be with-holding the deposit.  If they broke anything in the lease that suggests they will not get their deposit back, then i would be making sure i hold onto this, and this will be a lesson for them to be more appreciative of the next house they move into. I think ppl like this are a disgrace and give renters a terrible name unfortunately.

My friends are renting a place, and treat this like their own home.  And their lease does not let them get their deposit back even if the windows are not cleaned to the same standard as when they moved in.  Their lease is what i would call a little OTT, but it works, maybe next time, change the lease to state the little things lke that in future.
Best of luck

Helen


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## paulpd (14 Aug 2009)

I sorted it all in the end. The place was reasonably tidy, but not terribly clean, especially when you look closer at the bathroom, kitchen work tops, etc. I gave them back all the deposit anyway. I have new tenants moving in shortly so hopefully this time it'll be left the way they find it!

Thanks


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