# Standing order lodged incorrectly to another customers a/c and their a/c has now been cleared out



## Freddie (9 Feb 2017)

Hi everyone


I set up a monthly standing order from my AIB current a/c to another a/c I have with KBC. The details of the standing order were incorrect so the money was bounced back to my AIB current a/c for a few months.  The a/c details I had used in the standing order were for a KBC account that didn’t exist yet.


I know now, I should have cancelled the standing order the 1st time it was bounce back to my AIB current a/c but I didn’t and this was very stupid of me, but as the money was coming back in I just let it run.


In December the standing order wasn’t bounced back to my AIB a/c so then I contacted KBC. In turned out that the details I had incorrectly used for the standing order were now valid as an a/c had been opened by a customer of theirs with these details.


KBC said they needed to go back through any phone calls I would have had with them to see if they had given me the KBC a/c number I had been using for my standing order. There was nothing in these phone conversations about this.  The a/c number I used is not similar in any way to other accounts I have with KBC or any other banks where I have accounts e.g. being out by a digit or something. No other a/c number I have anywhere else bares any resemblance to the one used.


KBC then went through the procedure of attempting to contact the customer who was receiving the money with my standing order.  The needed to do this with some phone calls first followed by 2 letters, allowing the customer to get back to them. They were unable to make contact. The next step was to inform the customer that they would be taking the money out without their permission if they hadn’t heard back by a certain date last week.


All along KBC didn’t foresee any issue with me getting the money back, and I was led to believe this was just a formality/procedure they needed to follow. There were sufficient funds in the customers a/c etc.


I rang the bank today as they have been really slow at getting back to me on this. Now it turns out the customer has cleared their KBC account of all funds and they say there is nothing they can do now to get my money back.


I call into their hub on Baggot St every now and then with other account stuff. I think I must have gotten the account number I subsequently used for the standing order, on one of these occasions. Otherwise I don’t know how I came to have the account details I had. To just by chance come up with an 8 digit bank account number that didn’t exist and then it became a real account seems impossible to me.

Is there anything I can do here? Thanks


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## Lightning (9 Feb 2017)

To set up a standing order from one bank to another you need to input the full IBAN code. For security reasons banks often do not issue sequential numbers inside the IBAN codes but sometimes they do. It is difficult to make a typo in an IBAN and end up with someone elses details but it can happen. 

An the end of the day, this person has your money. Can KBC be forced to divulge the name of this person?


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## Freddie (9 Feb 2017)

Not to me anyway, as that would be a breach of data protection.


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## Freddie (9 Feb 2017)

CiaranT it wasn't a typo as the account details I entered have no resemblance to any other account I have. If it was out by 1 or even 2 digits I could understand that.


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## Gerry Canning (9 Feb 2017)

Freddie ,

get a copy of your signed standing order instructions , I am not clear about account numbers you used , looks like you probably input wrongly , if so it looks bad ! sorry !


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## emeralds (9 Feb 2017)

Gerry Canning said:


> Freddie ,
> 
> get a copy of your signed standing order instructions , I am not clear about account numbers you used , looks like you probably input wrongly , if so it looks bad ! sorry !



You don't have to sign anything to set up a standing order. I can create standing orders using online banking.


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## Gerry Canning (9 Feb 2017)

Then check your online inputting.


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## newtothis (9 Feb 2017)

It's very unlikely the error is due to a typo or other input error. IBANs are protected by a checksum that will pick up on most input errors: it's not perfect but it will detect things like single digit errors, transpositions, duplicates etc. A checksum is one or more digits that are added to a number to ensure it's integrity (PPS numbers use something similar). Hence it is difficult (but not impossible) to input an IBAN that isn't valid. Having said that, many banks offer online tools to generate an IBAN given a sort code and account number - this kind of bypasses a lot of the checking, as it can generate a valid IBAN from an invalid account number. Can you recall how the original SO was set up?


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## llgon (9 Feb 2017)

Have you contacted the Gardai?  You said that KBC contacted the customer a number of times while there was still money in the account to inform them of the error.  If the other customer has deliberately gone off with your money it's definitely a matter for the Gardai to investigate.


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## Boyd (9 Feb 2017)

Seems more common than you'd think: article from few weeks ago. http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...e-after-51000-landed-in-account-35399065.html. Contact Gardai definitely if not getting any satisfaction from KBC.


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Feb 2017)

Do I understand this correctly? 

You set up a standing order to transfer money from your AIB account to KBC and it bounced back.
This went on for a few months. 
And you did nothing about it? 

Brendan


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## Monbretia (10 Feb 2017)

I did this once in error, mis matched sort code and account number, amount was 7k    I had several accounts with same bank and some were under different sort codes and I unfortunately gave the correct sort code account number of my account at a different branch and it hit an existing account within the sort code branch.   I had not known before that that account numbers were duplicated in different branches!  Might be more secure now with the IBAN.

The bank will not give you the customer's name, best they will do is write to customer and ask them to sign a withdrawal form, I was never told they would debit the customer regardless if they didn't reply.  Luckily I had a friend in the branch who pursued it for me and managed to chase down the customer and again luck was on my side as it was a pretty much unused account with a small balance so customer had not even noticed the lodgement.


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## Buddyboy (10 Feb 2017)

I think a crucial piece of info is where/how you received the incorrect account number. As you said, there is no record of it being given to you by KBC in their phone call records.  Is there any way (foc?) of getting access to internal memos etc. that may have this information.  If I am inferring correctly from your posts, you believe that they provided you with this number (as it bears no resemblance to any of your existing ones).  If that can be proven, then I would think that you have a good case for KBC to refund you the money themselves as it is their error.  If this cannot be proven, then you have a more difficult task.


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## Ceist Beag (10 Feb 2017)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Do I understand this correctly?
> 
> You set up a standing order to transfer money from your AIB account to KBC and it bounced back.
> This went on for a few months.
> ...


Brendan I believe the OP has already made this clear in the first post? I don't think there is anything unclear there so yes you understand it correctly.



Freddie said:


> I set up a monthly standing order from my AIB current a/c to another a/c I have with KBC. The details of the standing order were incorrect so the money was bounced back to my AIB current a/c for a few months.  The a/c details I had used in the standing order were for a KBC account that didn’t exist yet.
> 
> I know now, I should have cancelled the standing order the 1st time it was bounce back to my AIB current a/c but I didn’t and this was very stupid of me, but as the money was coming back in I just let it run.


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## thedaddyman (10 Feb 2017)

if the error was the OP's fault because he used the wrong bank account details and he made no effort to correct it for a number of months, then the likelihood is he will be dependent on the goodwill of KBC to pay it back, it's not their fault and the money is quite possibly gone.

If the error was KBC's fault and they were advised correctly but set the standing order up wrong and are now refusing to reimburse the OP, he should raise a formal complaint in writing with KBC and use their complaints process, if that doesn't work he can then complain to the Ombudsman


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## Freddie (10 Feb 2017)

Thanks for the replies everyone (apart from BB's) 

No I haven't contacted the Gardai but I will now. There was sufficient funds in the other customers a/c right up to when they would have received the letter from KBC (this had gone to KBC's legal team) informing them that as KBC had been unable to contact them for a no. of weeks by phone and letter, they would now be debiting their a/c.

Brendan I think I remember you making a statement on here before about not commenting if wasn't going to be of help with a posters problem. I fail to see how you couldn't have understood what I said. I spent a lot of time writing that initial post to make it as clear and unambiguous as I could, acknowledging how stupid I had been. If you have nothing constructive to add please don't reply to me again.


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## Freddie (10 Feb 2017)

The original standing was setup by me using AIBs internet banking. I just don't know how I got the account no. I used in the standing order details. 

As I said before its unlike any account numbers I have in KBC and unlike any account numbers I have with any other banks. Coupled with this the chance of coming up with an account number for KBC that hasn't doesn't exist at the time of me using it to setup a standing order and then the account becoming live a few months later.


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## peteb (10 Feb 2017)

Freddie said:


> Brendan I think I remember you making a statement on here before about not commenting if wasn't going to be of help with a posters problem. I fail to see how you couldn't have understood what I said. I spent a lot of time writing that initial post to make it as clear and unambiguous as I could, acknowledging how stupid I had been. If you have nothing constructive to add please don't reply to me again.



got to assume it was like when someone says "say that again!!" when they've clearly heard what you have said.  i.e. shock and awe as the fact you knew it was wrong but still continued to do it.  

Plus I'm also guessing when you pay the piper you call the tune.  BB is paying the piper!


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## gnf_ireland (10 Feb 2017)

Freddie said:


> The original standing was setup by me using AIBs internet banking. I just don't know how I got the account no. I used in the standing order details.



Ok, do you know if you entered in an account number/sort code or IBAN/BIC when entering the details?

If you entered in an account number or sort code, I am not sure of the validation on those. Some account numbers have modulus checksum digits to reduce the risk of incorrect entry - I am not sure about bank account ones.

However, if you entered an IBAN, this is a different matter. The third and fourth characters of an IBAN  IExxICONzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz are check digits and calculated based on the remaining details of the IBAN. The chances of being able to correctly guess these on a new account are 1 in 100, unless you went to a website to convert sort code/account number to IBAN.

When did you set up the KBC account? How long ago, and how were you communicated the account number by them? How long was the account created before the standing order was set up? Days, Weeks, Months etc

Finally, I would ask AIB formally why the SO was not automatically cancelled after it was failed a number of times. I worked on the SEPA implementation for a company and the business rule that was suggested we implement by the bank was if we got back an error stating "account closed" or "account does not exist" the Direct Debit is automatically cancelled. It seems odd they would continue to process it after it failed for that reason. For reasons like insufficient funds you would only cancel it if it failed 3 times in a row - for example.
Also did AIB ever alert you to the fact the SO was failing ?


No matter what the situation from here on in and who is at fault or not, I would formally write to KBC advising them you are now reporting this to the Gardai, who will be following up with the bank directly to obtain the customer details. I would also request a full copy of the file they have on the incident. Obviously I would also report it to the Gardai in the first instance !


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## gnf_ireland (10 Feb 2017)

peteb said:


> shock and awe as the fact you knew it was wrong but still continued to do it.



I am sure Brendan has seen some really special things being discussed on this website, but on occasion I am sure even he is surprised by the actions of people in certain cases. I know the OP realises now he should have cancelled it when it bounced ! I guess it all depends on how long it went on for !


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## emeralds (10 Feb 2017)

gnf_ireland said:


> Finally, I would ask AIB formally why the SO was not automatically cancelled after it was failed a number of times. I worked on the SEPA implementation for a company and the business rule that was suggested we implement by the bank was if we got back an error stating "account closed" or "account does not exist" the Direct Debit is automatically cancelled. It seems odd they would continue to process it after it failed for that reason. For reasons like insufficient funds you would only cancel it if it failed 3 times in a row - for example.
> Also did AIB ever alert you to the fact the SO was failing ?



The op knew the so was failing because it was returned to the op's account every month. Also I am not sure if AIB have the authority to cancel a standing order initiated by one of their customers?


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## gnf_ireland (10 Feb 2017)

emeralds said:


> Also I am not sure if AIB have the authority to cancel a standing order initiated by one of their customers?


I know for Direct Debits, the company has the right to cancel the DD if it fails for a variety of reasons.

The SO failed because the account did not exist - I would say that's a pretty good reason to cancel an SO and advise the customer of such. Similarly, if the account was closed, would they continue indefinitely to try lodge money onto a closed account and never alert the customer

As I said, not 100% sure on the rules on SO, but it is perfectly acceptable for a company to cancel a DD in a large number of cases.


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## Brendan Burgess (10 Feb 2017)

Freddie said:


> Brendan I think I remember you making a statement on here before about not commenting if wasn't going to be of help with a posters problem. I fail to see how you couldn't have understood what I said. I spent a lot of time writing that initial post to make it as clear and unambiguous as I could, acknowledging how stupid I had been. If you have nothing constructive to add please don't reply to me again.



Hi Freddie 

The first part of your original post was very clear. 

But then I got the impression that you seemed to think that KBC might have some liability. So I thought that maybe I had misunderstood something. 

It's essential when trying to solve a problem that you identify the cause and don't waste time trying to blame someone else who did not cause the problem. 

So all I was trying to do was to establish that I had read what you had written correctly. 

I would then have pointed out that it was not KBC's fault. That you should not waste time thinking about whether they were to blame or not. 

Then go to the Gardai or whatever. 

Brendan


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## Freddie (10 Feb 2017)

Brendan your question was - Do I understand the following points, you didn't elaborate any further



Brendan Burgess said:


> Do I understand this correctly?
> 
> 
> You set up a standing order to transfer money from your AIB account to KBC and it bounced back.This went on for a few months.
> ...



how could that have been any clearer from my original post



Freddie said:


> I set up a monthly standing order from my AIB current a/c to another a/c I have with KBC. The details of the standing order were incorrect so the money was bounced back to my AIB current a/c for a few months.
> 
> The a/c details I had used in the standing order were for a KBC account that didn’t exist yet. I know now, I should have cancelled the standing order the 1st time it was bounce back to my AIB current a/c but I didn’t and this was very stupid of me, but as the money was coming back in I just let it run.


This is off topic now and I'm sure I'll be seen as the pedant here. As per the advice I'll contact AIB and the Gardai. The assistant manager I have been dealing with in KBC offered to put in a formal complaint on this for me, I have taken up the offer.


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