# Austria's Mandatory Vaccines and similar measures



## odyssey06 (19 Nov 2021)

It is being reported that Austria will bring in mandatory vaccines in early 2022 - not sure of the exact details on implementation.
This comes on foot of regional lockdowns for unvaccinated there.

Discussion of measures to compel \ encourage vaccination has been discussed in other threads, but I thought it made sense to create this new thread for such a development where wider discussion of such measures could be discussed.









						Austria imposing national lockdown for all and making vaccinations mandatory
					

The lockdown will start from Monday and will be evaluated after 10 days.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## Paul O Mahoney (19 Nov 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> It is being reported that Austria will bring in mandatory vaccines in early 2022 - not sure of the exact details on implementation.
> This comes on foot of regional lockdowns for unvaccinated there.
> 
> Discussion of measures to compel \ encourage vaccination has been discussed in other threads, but I thought it made sense to create this new thread for such a development where wider discussion of such measures could be discussed.
> ...


They like Germany and other surrounding countries are approximately only 67% of adults vaccinated. 

It will interesting to see what the effects of the initial lockdown is and if it has a positive effect on infections. 

They are also introducing " mandatory " vaccinations I believe they have set February as the deadline.


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## joer (19 Nov 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> They like Germany and other surrounding countries are approximately only 67% of adults vaccinated.
> 
> It will interesting to see what the effects of the initial lockdown is and if it has a positive effect on infections.
> 
> They are also introducing " mandatory " vaccinations I believe they have set February as the deadline.


If it proves successful then it might be implemented here ...


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## Purple (19 Nov 2021)

Mask wearing is still essential. Restaurants and pubs can should ensure that patrons are wearing them when not seated. If a venue cannot ensure this then it shouldn't be open.


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## michaelm (19 Nov 2021)

You would think the likes of house arrest for the unvaccinated or mandatory vaccination would be something that only happens in China or some other totalitarian state.  I am entirely opposed to such.  I hope even those most enthusiastic about vaccination here would oppose mandatory vaccination, though I expect that many would support it.  I think it would be a huge mistake.


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## tomdublin (19 Nov 2021)

I wonder whether forced medical treatment for adults of sound mind is compliant with European human rights law (legal opinions seem to differ).  I'm strongly pro-vaccination and can't wait to get my booster shot but the idea that the state could force ordinary citizens to inject something into their bodies they don't want is repellent and reeks of fascism.


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## Paul O Mahoney (19 Nov 2021)

tomdublin said:


> I wonder whether forced medical treatment for adults of sound mind is compliant with European human rights law (legal opinions seem to differ).  I'm strongly pro-vaccination and can't wait to get my booster shot but the idea that the state could force ordinary citizens to inject something into their bodies they don't want is repellent and reeks of fascism.


Or the other view is that despite having a vaccine for over 12 months against a virus that is proven to kill those elderly and vulnerable in our society but a cohort simply refuse to be part of a strategy to protect them.
Additionally that cohort are now filling up hospital beds right across Europe that once again will lead to postponement of critical medical care for those who need it and will probably cause more unnecessary suffering and death.

The decision not to get vaccinated also puts nurses and doctors right back into danger.

The decision not to get vaccinated is a personal choice,  but choices have consequences and mandatory vaccination is now becoming a tool that  Governments are going to use to persuade those to get vaccinated, if not for themselves but for their fellow citizens. 

We know from extensive studies that side effects are minimal.

This is not Fascism


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## odyssey06 (19 Nov 2021)

tomdublin said:


> I wonder whether forced medical treatment for adults of sound mind is compliant with European human rights law (legal opinions seem to differ).  I'm strongly pro-vaccination and can't wait to get my booster shot but the idea that the state could force ordinary citizens to inject something into their bodies they don't want is repellent and reeks of fascism.


France has long standing laws for the mandatory vaccination of children, regardless of the wishes of parents.
As does multiple other EU countries.
The ECHR ruled that:
_Compulsory vaccines can be seen as "necessary in a democratic society," the Strasbourg-based court said in its ruling, which came on a 16-1 vote._








						European Court Backs Mandatory Vaccinations For Children
					

Requiring vaccines can be seen as "necessary in a democratic society," the Strasbourg-based court said in its ruling on a law governing preschool kids.




					www.npr.org
				




It is authoritarian \ the state knows best, but seems far from fascism when you consider in the 1930s that Germany ended all supports for state vaccinations... survival of the fittest and all that.


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## tomdublin (19 Nov 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> laws for the mandatory vaccination of children, regardless of the wishes of parents.


I don't object to that as children cannot make informed decisions and are not their parents' property.  Forcing adults is a completely different story.


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## Paul O Mahoney (19 Nov 2021)

tomdublin said:


> I don't object to that as children cannot make informed decisions and are not their parents' property.  Forcing adults is a completely different story.


Who's forcing the people have had a choice for almost 12 months to either get vaccinated or not. 
Those who didn't,  for whatever reason,  now have to face the consequences of their decision.


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## odyssey06 (19 Nov 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Who's forcing the people have had a choice for almost 12 months to either get vaccinated or not.
> Those who didn't,  for whatever reason,  now have to face the consequences of their decision.


Well the Austrians seem to be going down that route ... I wonder if they will be an outlier or we will see other countries follow their lead.


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## Paul O Mahoney (19 Nov 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> Well the Austrians seem to be going down that route ... I wonder if they will be an outlier or we will see other countries follow their lead.


Apparently Germany, and the Netherlands are also considering this according to various reports. 
I'm certainly not in full agreement with this but I can see a point of view. 

You simply cannot have a cohort within a population that can cause harm to others. Mandatory vaccines maybe extreme but the solution is simple.


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## odyssey06 (19 Nov 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Apparently Germany, and the Netherlands are also considering this according to various reports.
> I'm certainly not in full agreement with this but I can see a point of view.
> 
> You simply cannot have a cohort within a population that can cause harm to others. Mandatory vaccines maybe extreme but the solution is simple.


In some EU countries you can be fired at will if not vaccinated \ it's a condition of employment.

You don't even need to go for 'mandatory vaccines', just make it a requirement for employment, or to access state benefits and/or services.


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## odyssey06 (20 Nov 2021)

Werder Bremen soccer coach resigns in fake covid vaccine cert scandal









						Anfang quits amid vaccine allegations
					

Werder Bremen coach Markus Anfang resigns after allegations of using a forged coronavirus vaccination certificate.




					www.bbc.com


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## tomdublin (20 Nov 2021)

Most vaccine sceptics are well-meaning and capable of rational behaviour and they will respond positively if their concerns are dealt with in a way that doesn't come across and bullying or patronising or driven by moral panic.  Doing some random browsing I came across a nice example (link below).  This caters primarily to the concerns of one particular group (the Muslim community in Britain), but the general format could be adapted to other target groups and their specific concerns: https://britishima.org/operation-vaccination/hub/covidmyths/#MHAR1


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## Paul O Mahoney (20 Nov 2021)

tomdublin said:


> Most vaccine sceptics are well-meaning and capable of rational behaviour and they will respond positively if their concerns are dealt with in a way that doesn't come across and bullying or patronising or driven by moral panic.  Doing some random browsing I came across a nice example (link below).  This caters primarily to the concerns of one particular group (the Muslim community in Britain), but the general format could be adapted to other target groups and their specific concerns: https://britishima.org/operation-vaccination/hub/covidmyths/#MHAR1


Then why haven't they come forward in the last year if they are well meaning?

Most European vaccine sceptics are right wing groups and as Rotterdam showed last light.

Why are most European countries less than 70% adult  vaccinated? It's a question that nobody answers or has an answer. 

These people are putting lives , including their own , at risk.They will also cause more economic problems, they are the part of the problem , and while vaccines takes care for the majority they need to be isolated or told to get the vaccine or face the consequences. 

Fair minded...........absolutely not.


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## Paul O Mahoney (21 Nov 2021)

There was an interview on BBC this morning with an Austrian journalist and she said the Austrians have been historically vaccine skeptics with only 10% taking the flu vaccine every year. 

She said the Government did well initially in getting people to come forward for vaccination but it soon slowed and right wing groups like the freedom party began to become more vocal,  these groups litter Europe, and vaccination rates began to slow. 

She went on to say that Austria is not an outlier as France,  Hungary and other countries have mandatory vaccination for other diseases, for decades.


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## michaelm (22 Nov 2021)

We managed to get 90% of over 12's vaccinated on a voluntary basis.  I suspect that a mandatory programme would have done less well and resulted in civil disobedience if not civil unrest.  While I am fully vaccinated and will take the booster when offered, I would not have taken the vaccine had it been mandatory.


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## EmmDee (22 Nov 2021)

Part of the problem is that Austria is a federation with 9 federations and health services are run by the federations (a bit like Germany). In 7 or 8 of the federations, right wing parties are in control and dropped mask mandates and played down the virus - usual stuff... "it's all over - now get back to normal". The exception is Vienna which kept up standard mitigations and now has the lowest incidence rates.

I think it highlights that basic mitigations like masks will need to be kept for a good while


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## odyssey06 (22 Nov 2021)

Parts of Germany have introduced legislation that unvaccinated employees will not be entitled to any wage/payments during times they are off work due to quarantining as a result of being close contacts.


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## Paul O Mahoney (22 Nov 2021)

EmmDee said:


> Part of the problem is that Austria is a federation with 9 federations and health services are run by the federations (a bit like Germany). In 7 or 8 of the federations, right wing parties are in control and dropped mask mandates and played down the virus - usual stuff... "it's all over - now get back to normal". The exception is Vienna which kept up standard mitigations and now has the lowest incidence rates.
> 
> I think it highlights that basic mitigations like masks will need to be kept for a good while


The ironic thing also is that drug substance for the vaccine is being manufactured there too.

The journalist mentioned the federal system in her assessment of Austria was going through with it's new measures.


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## pablo123 (23 Nov 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> Parts of Germany have introduced legislation that unvaccinated employees will not be entitled to any wage/payments during times they are off work due to quarantining as a result of being close contacts.


Rightly so , This is a Pandemic , This is not a passing joke this is for real , Give up your rights for now , People gave up their lives fighting wars so they could have the freedom of choice so make the right one for everyone,s sake .


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## michaelm (23 Nov 2021)

While this disease is serious, with 90% already vaccinated, it does not warrant mandatory vaccination.  Such would be an overreach by the State, an affront to civil liberties, and achieve little or nothing save to set a dangerous precedent.  Had we introduced mandatory vaccination during the Swine Flu pandemic in 2009 we would have had many more children having to cope with lifelong narcolepsy.


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## Paul O Mahoney (23 Nov 2021)

michaelm said:


> While this disease is serious, with 90% already vaccinated, it does not warrant mandatory vaccination.  Such would be an overreach by the State, an affront to civil liberties, and achieve little or nothing save to set a dangerous precedent.  Had we introduced mandatory vaccination during the Swine Flu pandemic in 2009 we would have had many more children having to cope with lifelong narcolepsy.


We don't have 90% of the population vaccinated it's closer to 75% which leaves over a million unvaccinated children included,  but children can also transmit.

That vaccine was proven safe it was the adjuvant was the problem, it was corrected but it was too late and the amount of people that were affected was a tiny percentage of those who received it.

What about the civil rights/liberties of those who get sick from others ?

Mandatory vaccination is nothing new, plenty of countries have it , we've done it, it might be the solution or at least get ahead of the virus,  but the power of reversing this is in our hands.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2021)

michaelm said:


> While this disease is serious, with 90% already vaccinated, it does not warrant mandatory vaccination.  Such would be an overreach by the State, an affront to civil liberties, and achieve little or nothing save to set a dangerous precedent.  Had we introduced mandatory vaccination during the Swine Flu pandemic in 2009 we would have had many more children having to cope with lifelong narcolepsy.


It's actually not clear with that vaccine if it 'caused' narcolepsy or triggered it, as in, it is probable those children would have at some point developed narcolepsy (in response to a viral infection) in their lives unless very lucky.


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## michaelm (23 Nov 2021)

The vaccine was fast-tracked, approved by the EMA and left 100+ Irish kids with narcolepsy.  Not trivial.  Children are not the drivers of transmission or clogging the hospitals.  The right to refuse medication/treatment is a civil liberty.  You seem to be implying that you support mandatory vaccination for both adults and children.  If so, fair enough.  I'm totally opposed.


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## michaelm (23 Nov 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> It's actually not clear with that vaccine if it 'caused' narcolepsy or triggered it, as in, it is probable those children would have at some point developed narcolepsy (in response to a viral infection) in their lives unless very lucky.


That's what a government spokesman might say.  Sure vaccines never did anyone any harm.  The spike in cases was noted in multiple jurisdictions.  We have a pipeline of court cases and the State, who indemnified the supplier, are paying out millions without, of course, admission of liability.


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## Paul O Mahoney (23 Nov 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> It's actually not clear with that vaccine if it 'caused' narcolepsy or triggered it, as in, it is probable those children would have at some point developed narcolepsy (in response to a viral infection) in their lives unless very lucky.


A study by Stamford University published in 2018 concluded the vaccine was safe the initial adjuvant mixture was the most likely cause of the side effects.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> A study by Stamford University published in 2018 concluded the vaccine was safe the initial adjuvant mixture was the most likely cause of the side effects.


Yes what seems to have happened is that the adjuvant was 'stronger' in the Pandemrix version and triggered a stronger immune response in the upper respiratory system.

One of the triggers of narcolepsy in individuals susceptible is such a response whether from a vaccine or a virus.

So for such people who received the vaccine it tripped the switch... maybe earlier than would have happened but many of them would have developed narcolepsy over the course of their lives.

If someone has a more plausible explanation for how the adjuvant could trigger narcolepsy please share.


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## michaelm (23 Nov 2021)

I don't think anyone is arguing other than the adjuvant component of Pandemrix triggered narcolepsy in these kids.  There's no evidence that they would otherwise have developed narcolepsy.  Unfortunately, the State chose to fight those damaged by the vaccine through the courts.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2021)

michaelm said:


> I don't think anyone is arguing other than the adjuvant component of Pandemrix triggered narcolepsy in these kids.  There's no evidence that they would otherwise have developed narcolepsy.  Unfortunately, the State chose to fight those damaged by the vaccine through the courts.


There was an increase in narcolepsy in areas where Pandemrix was used, that is not being questioned.

I disagree that it's a strong argument against mandatory vaccines, given the complexities below.
Vaccines have side effects, but not pushing vaccines has consequences too.
_(I haven't advocated for mandatory vaccines but I agree with the measures around access to hospitality etc)_

People who never got the vaccine, or got a different one, can develop narcolepsy.
Being infected with flu or a minor infection can cause narcolepsy:
_The cause of narcolepsy is often an infection that “tricks” the immune system into destroying the cells that produce hypocretin by mistaking those cells for attacking bacteria or viruses. The infection might be nothing more than a sore throat or flu-like infection._

So yes there is evidence they could otherwise have developed narcolepsy... if they have the genetic susceptibility.

_A nuclear protein found in both H1N1 influenza virus and some H1N1 vaccines blocks a receptor for hypocretin, a neuropeptide associated with wakefulness. But it only affects people with a specific genetic make-up (human leukocyte antigen [HLA] haplotype) that is rare in Canada, but more common in the northern European countries... H1N1 infection, as well as vaccination, can cause narcolepsy._









						H1N1 vaccine and narcolepsy link discovered
					






					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## michaelm (23 Nov 2021)

Science lesson notwithstanding, the other swine flu vaccine (Celvapan) did not trigger narcolepsy.  Plenty of other vaccines contain adjuvants but have not caused a spike in narcolepsy.  In any event, I mentioned it as an example of what can happen with a rushed vaccine.  One shouldn't need to make an argument against forced vaccination in a liberal democracy, it should be a given (but clearly not taken for granted).  

By all means push vaccines, and at this stage target messaging towards our migrant population who make up half the unvaccinated in ICU but only 1/6th of the population, but we should not go down the road of forced vaccination.  If we do it will backfire.


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## Paul O Mahoney (23 Nov 2021)

michaelm said:


> By all means push vaccines, and at this stage target messaging towards our migrant population who make up half the unvaccinated in ICU but only 1/6th of the population, but we should not go down the road of forced vaccination.  If we do it will backfire.


Wow.....looks like it's the migrant workers fault now.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Wow.....looks like it's the migrant workers fault now.


I think there could be an issue there. Lot of vaccine scepticism in places like Romania, Poland, Brazil, Baltc states and have migrant worker populations here.

Legacy of suspicion to Soviet dominated / dictatorial governments.

It may need a culturally calibrated response / some firm measures that cant be ignored.


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## Paul O Mahoney (23 Nov 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> I think there could be an issue there. Lot of vaccine scepticism in places like Romania, Poland, Brazil, Baltc states and have migrant worker populations here.
> 
> Legacy of suspicion to Soviet dominated / dictatorial governments.
> 
> It may need a culturally calibrated response / some firm measures that cant be ignored.


I know all that but they represent 13% of the population and are naturally sceptical and I know a few, but if we are now going to start singling out sub sections of the non Irish born population and saying they are the cause?

A few weeks ago this was highlighted by the HSE and they were, along with other organisations, attempting  to get information in native languages to help persuade migrants of the positive side of getting vaccinated, but this isn't solely an immigrant issue as the majority of the people who are in the ICU/ hospitals are Irish.

The Irish times ran a story on this at the end of October,  Google has made links impossible for me.


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## odyssey06 (23 Nov 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I know all that but they represent 13% of the population and are naturally sceptical and I know a few, but if we are now going to start singling out sub sections of the non Irish born population and saying they are the cause?
> 
> A few weeks ago this was highlighted by the HSE and they were, along with other organisations, attempting  to get information in native languages to help persuade migrants of the positive side of getting vaccinated, but this isn't solely an immigrant issue as the majority of the people who are in the ICU/ hospitals are Irish.
> 
> The Irish times ran a story on this at the end of October,  Google has made links impossible for me.


I didnt mean to suggest it is solely that cohort - rather that the unvaccinated are not a homogenous group.


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## Paul O Mahoney (23 Nov 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> I didnt mean to suggest it is solely that cohort - rather that the unvaccinated are not a homogenous group.


I know you didn't and understand what you're saying,  but its been highlighted and steps are being put in place to try and get more migrants vaccinated.


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## michaelm (24 Nov 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Wow.....looks like it's the migrant workers fault now.


That seems a tad disingenuous, if not cynical.


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## Paul O Mahoney (24 Nov 2021)

michaelm said:


> That seems a tad disingenuous, if not cynical.


You typed it and it was read as typed, as I said the problem has been highlighted by the HSE and a strategy has been put in place. 
I certainly don't think we should be naming and pointing to minorities in an effort to pursue a narrative.


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## michaelm (24 Nov 2021)

I realise I've trip-trapped into your forum but your retort may say more about you than me.  Poor, but interesting.


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## Paul O Mahoney (24 Nov 2021)

michaelm said:


> I realise I've trip-trapped into your forum but your retort may say more about you than me.  Poor, but interesting.


My forum? So, your resorting to personal slights now.
You have a point of view, I have a counter point of view,  you post and I respond if I feel the need that's how it works.


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