# Civil Service Exams



## Ralphie (9 Apr 2007)

Hi,

Does anyone know of any books/websites etc that are useful for the maths part of these exams?

Thanks!


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## shesells (9 Apr 2007)

There are information booklets and practice tests on the publicjobs.ie website. Last time they had some interactive tests but I'm not sure if they're there now. Remember for the maths they only allow you a basic calculator.

Are you going for the AO/Junior Diplomat ones? I'll be joining the thousands there too!


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## sun_sparks (10 Apr 2007)

Yeah and me too...

Any idea how many people are called for the tests and how many are actually selected for the panels?


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## dereko1969 (10 Apr 2007)

one thing to remember for the maths part of the exam is that you only have to pass it, marks beyond the pass mark aren't counted (at least that was the case a number of years ago, fairly sure it's the same now). the thing to do is go through the paper picking out the 'easier' questions and do them first. when i did the exams i avoided anything involving indices as, for me, they were just too difficult and time consuming. not sure of any books that would help but best of luck.


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## Dreamerb (10 Apr 2007)

It's some time since I've done the AO / 3rd Sec exams, but I can offer the folowing, if it's of any use:

(1) Dereko1969 is correct - on the "maths" section (it's really only arithmetic, and a little data manipulation, at most), all you need is a pass. You will not receive additional points for further corrrect answers. 

(2) There is no negative marking. 

(3) There will usually be a good deal of information provided in graph and / or tabular format. Look carefully at the figures and what they represent - you may be asked to compare two things and assess which is better value, that sort of thing. 

In general, they tend to throw in a couple of questions with a twist, or which require more calculation: if you're not quick with numbers, don't waste time trying to work those out at the beginning. As dereko says, identify the easy ones and do those. Keep an eye on the time. When you've done the easy ones, go back to the others and spend a little extra time trying to work them out. If you run short of time, pick the one that looks right. And try to save two minutes or so to look over your answers. 

http://www.thatquiz.com/ has some online arithmetic and graph stuff - you can change the difficulty levels. While it's not exactly the kind of thing you'll face, it's good for sharpening you up if you're a bit slower on the numbers side, as are IQ quiz books and the like. 

sun_sparks, I'm not sure what the numbers are like these days, but there used to be thousands, with panels of twenty to fifty being established. That would indicate to me that in the region of 300 people in total, at most, will be called to interview from the test stage. 

Note that certain AO posts are being recruited directly by the relevant departments, so keep an eye on  as well. 

Best of luck to all of you taking the exams!


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## mlouisa (10 Apr 2007)

When are the exams? Is it too late to apply?


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## shesells (10 Apr 2007)

Last time I did them 6,000 people sat the exams. They called the top 150 for round 2 which was a group/teamwork exercise and then a document summary test. 

I got to round 2 but had a lousy group for the exercise and then messed up the summary thing as I was not one of those lucky people whose mates had already done the test and told them what was in it!

Close of applications was 20 March so too late for you MLouisa.


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## sun_sparks (11 Apr 2007)

Oh, I hate group exercises. Can you tell me what's involved in that?


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## shesells (11 Apr 2007)

I don't know if there are group tasks this time around, didn't look like it from the info they posted.

Anyway last time we were brought into a room, about 8 in the group and 2 "observers". We were given some documents to read and then based on the info they contained we had to organise a visit to Dublin by some potential foreign investors. Sounds easy. Not!! Lots of clashes of interests, languages, time and restricted budget. You weren't allowed nominate a chair so 8 different voices all trying to look like the perfect candidate....we got nowhere near sorting it in the time allowed.

From what I remember someone in the group was obsessed by a comment in one of the visitor profiles about hot air ballooning!


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## Dreamerb (11 Apr 2007)

shesells said:


> You weren't allowed nominate a chair so 8 different voices all trying to look like the perfect candidate....we got nowhere near sorting it in the time allowed.


I'm not surprised, and I don't think the group exercises are really going to be a useful measure. I know they're introducing them at other levels as well, and don't look forward to undergoing it. The premise is faulty, to my mind: in real life, a group is going to have a chair or to nominate a chair, to keep discussion on track and, if necessary, to guillotine discussion on extraneous or unproductive issues or set them aside until later. 

Unfortunately, in the highly artificial way they've set it up, it's liable to be an aggression-driven exercise _and _it would take only two people in a group acting the maggot to derail the prospects of the whole group. As far as I can see, if you're in such a group then the only abilities it's likely to test are the abilities to work in a chaotic and unstructured environment, and to shout louder than the rest. To my mind, that does not put candidates on an equal footing as they're unduly dependent on luck of the draw in the group.  


shesells said:


> From what I remember someone in the group was obsessed by a comment in one of the visitor profiles about hot air ballooning!


Gah! See?


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## Triple7 (14 Apr 2007)

Hi,

Interesting topic!!

Anyone have advice for the verbal reasoning or the job simulation sections?


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## shesells (15 Apr 2007)

Verbal reasoning is tough enough, the difference between stated and implied can be tiny in some cases so the "doesn't say" answer needs a lot of thinking about.

For the job simulation, put yourself in the employers position and think about what they want in an employee. IMO it's the easiest section.


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## bradfield (15 Apr 2007)

shesells said:


> Verbal reasoning is tough enough, the difference between stated and implied can be tiny in some cases so the "doesn't say" answer needs a lot of thinking about.
> 
> For the job simulation, put yourself in the employers position and think about what they want in an employee. IMO it's the easiest section.


 
Just to let you know that in tackling the job sim the best advice is what the poster above suggests. However, in the last external AP competition (which is the grade just above AO) they changed the format of the job sim. Before you chose just one option that you believed to be the best option, in the new format you have to grade the options from the one you believe to be the best downwards. While it may appear straightforward I am a serving AO who got very good marks in the exam where you chose one option and fell down markedly in the next competition where you had to grade the options. It is not as easy at it seems! 

Good luck!

D


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## Raskolnikov (19 Apr 2007)

I just took the Administrative Officer/Third Secretary test there this morning. From the looks of it, it seemed like the Third Secretary applicants were the greatest in number. I'd say there'll be some vicious competition for that position.

I thought the Verbal Reasoning test fairly easily, had a little time left over to check over the answers to some of the trickier questions. The Numerical Competency was a little trickier due to time constraints (had to guess the last two answers). Other than that though, it seemed reasonable enough.

The Job Simulation could have been a complete disaster, I really have no idea. I got the feeling that the best answers (I know, I know, you were supposed to give *your* answers) were ones involving team working and consensous building. Did anyone get the question about relating to the lunching booking for the Minister? I nearly laughed out loud at the ludicrousness of it, it totally reminded me of the classic BBC show, Yes, Minister. 

I'm kinda confident I'll get to the next stage. What did everyone else think?


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## shesells (19 Apr 2007)

I hope this confidence is catching, I do the exam next week. Got to round 2 last time, fingers crossed for this time. The odds are high though, 5000+ for 150ish round 2 places....


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## gianni (1 May 2007)

Raskolnikov said:


> Did anyone get the question about relating to the lunching booking for the Minister? I nearly laughed out loud at the ludicrousness of it, it totally reminded me of the classic BBC show, Yes, Minister.


 

Buy him a quality vegetarian alternative from a nearby delicatessen!

I have to admit I was giggling my way through that question too...


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## Staples (2 May 2007)

Raskolnikov said:


> Did anyone get the question about relating to the lunching booking for the Minister? I nearly laughed out loud at the ludicrousness of it, it totally reminded me of the classic BBC show, Yes, Minister.


 
Useful tip.  If you get the job, you may well find yourself in this kind of scenario.  In the unlikely event of you feeling like laughing at the time, you would be well advised to bottle it.  Ministers tend not to see humour in everything.


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## shesells (2 May 2007)

The first 2 sections were identical to 2 years ago!!


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## sun_sparks (29 May 2007)

Any idea when the "results" of these tests will be announced?


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## Rovers1901 (29 May 2007)

I heard June. So would expect in the next 2 weeks or so...


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## tricky@ (30 May 2007)

They are not renowned for getting those results out by the specified timeframe so be prepared to wait another few weeks. although hopefully they will prove me wrong!


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## sun_sparks (30 May 2007)

Thanks! Fingers crossed we hear soon.

With the interviews, are they more flexible with dates (provided I am so lucky, which I doubt!). I'm away for a month in August on honeymoon...


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## sun_sparks (7 Jun 2007)

Just wondering whether people have started getting news on this yet?


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## Raskolnikov (7 Jun 2007)

I was hoping to hear this week but it looks like there won't be results until next week.


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## tricky@ (14 Jun 2007)

results due out this evening or tomorrow according to someone who rang publicjobs over on the work/jobs forum on boards.ie.


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## shesells (14 Jun 2007)

Anyone else get a cryptic email?


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## tricky@ (14 Jun 2007)

yep the results are out, just got that cryptic email there!reasonably happy, came in the top 250 for the general open AO panel which isnt bad considering the amount of people that did the exams and as high as the top 60 in some of the various sub panels as i am a serving civil servant.still might not be enough to get through to the next stage but i'll wait and see.


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## shesells (14 Jun 2007)

I'm not a serving civil servant but fall within that general group as well. Bit disappointed in that I ranked 34th after round one 2 years ago (when the Junior Diplomat job was EO) and have slipped somewhat this time.

Wonder how many they're taking to round 2? Last time it was 1-198 according to the email I got after round 1 then. Why is the mail way more vague this time?

Any idea how many people did the tests this time, 2 years ago it was between 5-6,000.


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## Raskolnikov (14 Jun 2007)

tricky@ said:


> yep the results are out, just got that cryptic email there!reasonably happy, came in the top 250 for the general open AO panel which isnt bad considering the amount of people that did the exams and as high as the top 60 in some of the various sub panels as i am a serving civil servant.still might not be enough to get through to the next stage but i'll wait and see.


I only got one ranking despite applying for two different positions AO General and IT. Is this right?


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## sun_sparks (14 Jun 2007)

Yeah got my ranking - top 40 for one position (sub-division) and top 100 for another.

Anyone any idea how many they call to interview?

And... I too didn't get any response re the Junior Diplomat role, only the AO.


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## DMTW (14 Jun 2007)

I came in top 220 for AO general... What happens if two candidates get the same score? (v likely)
220 doesnt seem to be that good a score.


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## shesells (14 Jun 2007)

DMTW said:


> I came in top 220 for AO general... What happens if two candidates get the same score? (v likely)
> 220 doesnt seem to be that good a score.


 

I know it's a bit disappointing to see a number that seems high but 220 of many thousands is brilliant. Wonder when we'll hear more?


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## Raskolnikov (15 Jun 2007)

Whooo, just got another e-mail placing me in the top 100 for another panel. 

Hope that's enough to get an interview.


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## shesells (15 Jun 2007)

Just got another email too - ranked really well in the Foreign Affairs competition. They're calling 1-185 for stage 2, anyone know when these tests are likely to take place?


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## DMTW (15 Jun 2007)

I came in at close to number 500 in the third secretary comp.... out of that one then!   AO is the one I want anyway... didnt apply for the subdivisions...


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## gianni (15 Jun 2007)

Got just outside the top 100 (104) in one and 201 in the other... was hoping for better as I usually do well in those type of tests. When it gets to having the skills to do the actual jobs - that's where I have the problems!


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## shesells (15 Jun 2007)

I'm dreading the group exercise for the Diplomat thing, last time it was a nightmare! Still, I'm glad to have made it this far again and will give it my best shot!


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## Raskolnikov (15 Jun 2007)

When do we find out if we progress to round 2?


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## shesells (15 Jun 2007)

For the Junior Diplomat my email says they are calling people ranked 1-185 for Round 2.

The AO email is very cryptic and says nothing about round 2 so I guess we wait to hear? According to public jobs, the AO job process is a 4 stage one and seems more complicated than the Junior Diplomat even though that is also at AO level?


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## DMTW (15 Jun 2007)

Wow, you all did so well...
I wasnt even within striking distance for 3rd Sec.  Good luck with the next round (for 3rd Sec that is...)


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## redbhoy (18 Jun 2007)

Just wondering here. Are all of the previous posters currently working in the civil service or was this an open competition?


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## shesells (18 Jun 2007)

It was an open competition, open to non civil servants as well as current civil servants. Several thousand people took part in round 1.


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## druss (18 Jun 2007)

redbhoy said:


> Just wondering here. Are all of the previous posters currently working in the civil service or was this an open competition?


 

It is an open competition. But for some of the job types ,(Admin Officer, Admin Officer IT etc), a certain proportion of vacancies will be filled by civil servants who will also have done well in the exam.

Every fourth appointment is supposed to be a civil servant.


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## tricky@ (19 Jun 2007)

Just got details of Stage Two of the Third Sec competition there, 5th July in Abbey Street for the group and written exercise.


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## shesells (19 Jun 2007)

I'm July 3rd - lucky, I'm heading away on the 4th!!


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## sedran (19 Jun 2007)

Good luck to everyone who got to stage two, am on July 3rd myself, for any of those who do eventually get selected, make an effort to get elements of the selection process changed!


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## shesells (19 Jun 2007)

I'd start by completely changing round 2. I'm glad I got this far again, hope the experience of last time (2 years ago) will stand to me but I'm dreading it!

Sedran - you could be in my group!


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## sedran (20 Jun 2007)

absolutely, as someone previously posted, the way the group is set up, it does not acurately reflect how it would happen on an offical basis. If i am in your group you will recongnise me as the one going red in the face everytime i try to say something. Best of luck with it though!

This is my first time doing this, how hard is it to get past round two? has anyone here sucessfully done it? what can you do to make yourself a sure hit, anything?


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## sedran (20 Jun 2007)

If anyone says don't go red in the face everytime i speak, i'll...


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## shesells (20 Jun 2007)

I think they took about 30 to interview from the 195 that made round 2 last time. I didn't make it out of Round 2, didn't expect to after my experience in the group.


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## sedran (21 Jun 2007)

Is there a chance to meet the people before the excercise to get to know them a little bit? that could possibly improve the group dynamics. or are you just thrown into it?


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## DMTW (21 Jun 2007)

I had a bad/stressy dream about this last night.  I'm really not the best in these situations....


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## shesells (21 Jun 2007)

They have several groups running at the same time but when you get there they send you to a certain meeting point and your group will assemble there. Not really ideal for chatting. Our group went to the pub after for a few drinks but a bit late then 

If you know people in the early group they might tip you off on the document summary subject. I was so p'd off last time as people had heard from their friends what the subject was and had read up on it. Needless to say, I'm telling nobody


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## sedran (22 Jun 2007)

fine then... . i was thinking of getting a mate to storm into the room where my group is brandishing a knife and shouting and then i will stand up and calm him down and send him off and be a hero.

I'd have to get through then.

And i wouldn't have to participate in a silly group exercise.

Pure Genuis


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## Dreamerb (22 Jun 2007)

sedran said:


> fine then... . i was thinking of getting a mate to storm into the room where my group is brandishing a knife and shouting and then i will stand up and calm him down and send him off and be a hero.
> 
> I'd have to get through then.
> 
> ...


While I like your lateral thinking, I've a nasty suspicion it wouldn't work (though I could do with having such, er, _resourceful _colleagues, from time to time!).

I once met my interview board by holding the fire escape door open for them, the alarm having gone off as I waited. Notwithstanding this and the pleasant chit-chat in the evacuation area, the sods didn't promote me...  (that time - a few horses heads later, relevant bods got the right idea ).


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## sedran (27 Jun 2007)

Thats is an even better idea, set off the fire alarms and hold the fire escape door open, simple yet beautiful... good idea, getting nervous about the whole thing now, hopefully that will get the adrenaline working for when i need it in the group excercise


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## shesells (27 Jun 2007)

You'll be fine Sedran, once you're in there it all kicks in!

I'm very calm because I was gutted last time and this time I'm not investing as much emotional effort. Am hoping this will help me do better as I'm not stressed about it at all.


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## shesells (3 Jul 2007)

Hope you managed to get through today Sedran - good luck to all the others yet to do round 2 for Junior Diplomat. My lips are sealed on the exercises but they are again very similar to last time.

Round 3 starts the week of Monday July 23rd so we should know how we did fairly shortly. They weren't giving dates for results though but I would imagine you'd get a week's notice?


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## sedran (5 Jul 2007)

Likewise shesells, hope you aced it, wasn't as scary as i thought it might be but still no breeze, the group thing was tricky. Good that will find out soon about stage three one way or the other, would be nice to get feedback, do they def give feedback for it??


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## druss (5 Jul 2007)

I'd agree that it wasn't as scary as i thought, but it was very strange. I was expecting a larger group. There were only five of us.

The AO invites should come soon enough. Might be seperate interviews if you are on a few panels.


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## Vastic (10 Jul 2007)

has anyone heard back from the public appointments service regarding stage 2? i had stage 2 last tuesday. i'd imagine the results should be out today or tomorrow. stage 3 starts on monday july 23rd so the sooner we hear the better...


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## sedran (12 Jul 2007)

how did people do re: stage 2, I got 36 just below the cut off, what were the marks out of? what would a good mark have been? and does anyone know of the likelyhood of them needing to take people below to cut off mark?


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## Vastic (12 Jul 2007)

hard luck sedran.

i got through but they didn't tell me what score I got. all they said was you are through to the third round etc etc.

was 36 your score or your place on the order of merit i wonder?


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## shesells (13 Jul 2007)

I'm through too!

Sorry you didn't make it Sedran, have a go next time. I did and so far so good!

Congrats Vastic!


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## Rovers1901 (25 Jul 2007)

Does anyone know when the results of the preliminary interviews for 3rd Sec are out? Is it next week?


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## Staples (25 Jul 2007)

You could ring the Public Appointments Service in Abbey Street. If it's imminent, they'll tell you.


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## shesells (25 Jul 2007)

According to the PAC it will be 2-3 torturous weeks of waiting!


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## sun_sparks (3 Aug 2007)

Anyone heard anything further on the Administrative Officer position?


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## druss (12 Aug 2007)

sun_sparks said:


> Anyone heard anything further on the Administrative Officer position?


 
Interview Preparation Questionnaire email last week. Hopefully interview(s) to follow!


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## sun_sparks (14 Aug 2007)

Would it be really rude of me to ask your position on the scoring - I got in the 30s...


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## druss (14 Aug 2007)

sun_sparks said:


> Would it be really rude of me to ask your position on the scoring - I got in the 30s...


 
They are actually covering four separate categories with this IPQ. AO General (open and confined) and AO Department of Communications, Energy & Natural Resources (open and confined).

I've got a top 20, and three top 10s in those categories. Don't know if all of those scores are being used though! 

If you also applied for one of the Revenue, Revenue IT, or Agriculture jobs, those Departments are probably going to do their own separate interviews. So from the one exam back in April, you could potentially do four or five interviews!


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