# 1st floor extension on listed building



## whatmoney? (7 Jan 2010)

I live in a listed terraced house 200 yrs old - 3 stories over self-contained basement.  I'm considering an extension to the kitchen which is to rear - on 1st floor - and looking at the possibility of building it on stilts where there is currently a wooden deck, i.e. without extending the equivalent space at the ground level immediately below.  I'd like the extension to have a modern look&feel - not necessarily blending in with the rest of the (drab) rear (which is not generally visible to public).  Any advice about presenting this idea to dlrcoco for permission?  Anybody done anything similar - does it sound feasible or mad?


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Jan 2010)

You will probably need to get a conservation architect to discuss it with you.

I doubt if they will go for a modern look and feel on a building which is listed.


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## ali (7 Jan 2010)

[quote I doubt if they will go for a modern look and feel on a building which is listed.[/quote]

I've seen many examples in recent years of seamless and very beautiful modern additions to old (not necessarily listed) buildings . It is very dependant on location, materials used, visibility and THE PLANNER in question. There are of course guidelines but some areas have planners who are more open minded in general. You can make an appointment for a pre planning meeting with the planners in your area. They will outline in general terms what is acceptable or what is a no go. 

Get a good architect.

A.


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## MH2 (7 Jan 2010)

I agree with ali and have built a number of projects where this has been done successfully and to a good standard but it is important to get a good architect on board who can liase with the planners where required.

If you would like to contact me i can give you a 2/3 names of architects i would recomend and you could take it from there.


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## whatmoney? (7 Jan 2010)

Is there a specific grade or qualification of architect called a "conservation architect" that I should be consider engaging ... on the whole design, or just a limited consultation?


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## onq (7 Jan 2010)

Hi whatmoney?

There is a lot of talk these days about "conservation architects".
Do you need to be a "conservation architect" to design a modern extension to a traditional or listed building?
I don't think so, but some people may want to add to the "provenance" of their building by employing someone like David Slattery of Custom House fame.

As a counterpoint here is a link from ODOS architects showing a very elegant modernist approach to a building return on Castlewood Avenue:
[broken link removed]
I find their work a little too extreme for my taste but their commitment to modern design is unquestionable and the practice is very well regarded.
I should note that I have no personal connection to ODOS except the father of one of the lads was one of my lecturers in Bolton Street DIT.

I don't know of too many conservation architects who excel at modernist design.
The conservationist agenda lies at the other end of the design spectrum.
More "respect for the past" than "creating the future".

I think your comments above suggests the brief that simply requires a good designer who can interpret your needs.
This person doesn't need to have been trained or even have experience as as a conservation architect.

If you need specific conservation input your architect or the planning officer can advise on retaining a conservation architect as a consultant.
Because I think that the central issue of your brief will be the creation of a modernist counterpoint to the existing listed building.
If you keep the new work outside the main body of the building this input may be kept to a minimum.

HTH

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## DBK100 (12 Jan 2010)

Whatmoney?, There are indeed architects out there who excel at sensitive contemporary design and have RIAI Grade 1 Conservation Accreditation.
Our own practice is one such small firm. I have sent you a message with our details.
While ONQ's comments that:
_"I don't know of too many conservation architects who excel at modernist design. The conservationist agenda lies at the other end of the design spectrum. More "respect for the past" than "creating the future"."_,
may ring true for a large proportion of conservation architects it is still a generalization. A good number of very talented architects have high levels of conservation skills (and Accreditation) and work on ranges of projects including new-build, pure conservation work and creative reuse of old buildings.
Remember that our protection system just designates a building as being either protected or not. It does not comment on the relative merit, status or importance of differing buildings.
Virtually every Local Authority Development Plan in the country encourages _sensitive_ contemporary additions to protected structures over pastiche mimicry of the existing fabric.
The key is the quality of the design response to the given context - especially the existing building. 
Regards,
DBK100 - MESH Architects.


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## picorette (12 Jan 2010)

There may be merits in either approach - traditional or modern. Planning Authorities are open to both, particularly as the rear is often a hotch potch.

There are numerous examples – Boyd Cody on Palmerston Road, de Blacam & Meagher on Leeson St Upper stand out – of good modern extensions to the rear of Protected Structures. Most important is to respect what is already there, internally & externally, retain what is of value, and to enhance the building.

Please consult a registered Architect who has Grade III Conservation Accreditation or above.


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## onq (12 Jan 2010)

picorette said:


> Please consult a registered Architect who has Grade III Conservation Accreditation or above.



I hope you can answer four questions for me picorette 
I find it adds depth to the online discussion to know where a poster is coming from.
Don't worry if you feel you're not in a position to reply, but if you do reply, please reply online.

i) What will the Grade III conservation accreditation bring to the table over an above someone with experience with no accreditation, bearing in mind the RIAI acknowledge that not all persons who have experience and are competent have the accreditation?

ii) Accepting that the accreditation brings something of benefit [knowledge in place of conservation experience perhaps], what difference is there in the level of competence of a Grade III as opposed to a Grade I, for example; knowledge + conservation experience maybe?

iii) Given that there is a difference in competence between the grades in relation to conservation work, how will this assist the OP in terms of designing the new work, since young designers today have little or no interest in following a "style" from over 100 years ago, which is odd considering how faithfully they'd be able to reproduce it...

iv) Do you know if there a de facto "closed shop" being operated in favour of accredited "conservatino architects" by conservation officers acting through the planning process in areas where protected structures are involved?

I'm not suggesting there is for a minute.
I'm finding it hard to find logical support for your assertion that a Grade III is necessary.
Unless... perhaps... are you by any chance a Grade III Conservation Accredited Registered Architect yourself?

ONQ.


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## DBK100 (12 Jan 2010)

onq said:


> ii) Accepting that the accreditation brings something of benefit [knowledge in place of conservation experience perhaps], what difference is there in the level of competence of a Grade III as opposed to a Grade I, for example; knowledge + conservation experience maybe?
> 
> ...I'm finding it hard to find logical support for your assertion that a Grade III is necessary at all unless... perhaps...
> 
> ONQ.




                 Info on RIAI Accreditation System:
[broken link removed]

There is no stipulation that an architect with conservation accreditation is required for the type of work described by the OP above. 
  It is however a requirement to submit a Conservation Report (including impact statement) as part of a planning application relating to a protected structure. This can be prepared by anyone - architect or not - but obviously it will carry different weight for the reader (planner) if it contains the research, opinion and conclusions of an accredited conservation architect as opposed to an unaccredited architect or building professional.
Depending on the subject building and its significance, the planning officer may well (and correctly) insist on this report being prepared by a conservation architect of a particular grade.

This isn't a question of operating a 'closed shop' in favour of any particular group. The accreditation system functions well but like any system it can result in some very well qualified persons being left out and therefore unrecognized.
  A planner's request for a report prepared by a Grade1/2/3 conservation architect is the recognition that a successful accreditation system identifies suitably qualified persons to undertake particular specialized work.


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## picorette (16 Jan 2010)

The OP asked for advice about presenting to DLRCoCo.

A two hundred year old building needs conservation expertise, whatever the intervention.

A proposal to DLRCoCo from an Architect with Conservation accreditation will carry more weight, and as there are several hundred practices in the Dublin area with RIAI conservation accreditation, it should be possible to find one that matches the OP’s design expectations.


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## mercman (16 Jan 2010)

You will require to have an Architect that has already done listed buildings previously. You can get a Conservation Architect who will more than likely cost you a fortune and may not be neccessary. I have a large old (300 years) building that recently obtained planning permission. It can be a nightmare seeking planning as if you read the rules for listed buildings, you really can't repaint the property without planning.

OP, depending on what part of the country you are in, I will forward the name of my Architect to you, who is not a young practice and knows exactly the dos and donts of planning for a listed building. PM me if you require further information


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## onq (17 Jan 2010)

DBK100 said:


> <snip>
> The accreditation system functions well but like any system it can result in some very well qualified persons being left out and therefore unrecognized.
> <snip>



Accreditation works for those who have it, not for those who don't, in my experience.

No amount of paper qualifications can take the place of ability though.

And a good builder with skilled tradesmen on board.

ONQ.


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## onq (17 Jan 2010)

picorette said:


> <snip>.
> A two hundred year old building needs conservation expertise, whatever the intervention.
> <snip>



If the intervention centres on the demolition of an existing rear return and the building of a modern replacement I fail to see the pressing need, but I respect your position.

IMO it needs a good, careful builder and an understanding of the materials used in the older building in order to create a stable interface, but that's about it.

The rest of its down to good design work.



ONQ.


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