# 20m for children living outside the country



## oldtimer (12 Mar 2009)

Noticed on teletext this country is paying out 20 million for children who are not living in this country. How can we sustain that?


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## Smashbox (12 Mar 2009)

I seen that in the paper the other day, I had NO IDEA that this was going on. I don't understand it either, quite frankly.


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## RMCF (12 Mar 2009)

Its not an amount that will change the deficit but every little bit adds up.

Its shocking that this money is effectively being stolen from the Gov. Its fraud.

Time the Gov started to take this type of action very seriously.


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## Lex Foutish (12 Mar 2009)

Didn't Fine Gael highlight that in the Dáil a few years ago, thus alerting foreign nationals living in Ireland to the fact that they could claim benefit here for their children living at home in their native country?


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## sandrat (12 Mar 2009)

the parents are living and working here in order to support the children, they are paying taxes here. And as far as I know there is an EU rule in relation to this too. It is not fraud


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## RMCF (12 Mar 2009)

Does the country in which the children are residing not pay them an allowance as well?


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## sandrat (12 Mar 2009)

RMCF said:


> Does the country in which the children are residing not pay them an allowance as well?


 
no that is why it takes months to process an application for a foreign child

edit: in fact we only make up the difference see below


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## sandrat (12 Mar 2009)

*Child Benefit and EU Regulations*

*EU/EEA citizens* and Swiss nationals *working* in *Ireland*, satisfy the habitual residence condition for Child Benefit.
If you are an EU/EEA citizen or a Swiss national and work in a country covered by EU Regulations, the country you work in usually pays Child Benefit *even if* your family is living in another country. However, if your children are living in another EU/EEA country you should still apply for any Family Benefits you are entitled to there. 
If the Family Benefit you get in the country your children are living is less than the Child Benefit payment here, your Irish Child Benefit payment will make up the difference. For more information on how EU rules affect Child Benefit, contact the Child Benefit Section (see 'Where to apply' below). 
Countries covered by EU Regulations are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom (excluding the Channel Islands).

source


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## thedaras (12 Mar 2009)

RMCF said:


> Its not an amount that will change the deficit but every little bit adds up.
> 
> Its shocking that this money is effectively being stolen from the Gov. Its fraud.
> 
> Time the Gov started to take this type of action very seriously.


 
Thats a disgracefull post RMCF..

Clarify who is stealing money from the Government?


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## Lex Foutish (13 Mar 2009)

sandrat said:


> *Child Benefit and EU Regulations*
> 
> *EU/EEA citizens* and Swiss nationals *working* in *Ireland*, satisfy the habitual residence condition for Child Benefit.
> If you are an EU/EEA citizen or a Swiss national and work in a country covered by EU Regulations, the country you work in usually pays Child Benefit *even if* your family is living in another country. However, if your children are living in another EU/EEA country you should still apply for any Family Benefits you are entitled to there.
> ...


Good research Sandrat.


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## RMCF (13 Mar 2009)

thedaras said:


> Thats a disgracefull post RMCF..
> 
> Clarify who is stealing money from the Government?



Wise yourself up. Like a good superlative do you?

Until the legal reply was made, I am sure that 99.9% of people in the country thought that €20mill going to children who don;t even live in the country was scandalous. 

I still think it is.


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## Smashbox (13 Mar 2009)

Have to agree with RMCF, but great post San, I really didn't understand it before now!


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## thedaras (13 Mar 2009)

RMCF said:


> Wise yourself up. Like a good superlative do you?
> 
> Until the legal reply was made, I am sure that 99.9% of people in the country thought that €20mill going to children who don;t even live in the country was scandalous.
> 
> I still think it is.


 
However scandalous you think it is, it is not fraud, so you were incorrect.
Re; liking a good superlative, I have a friend here who is not from Ireland and he was very offended by your post ,saying these people were stealing from the government and commiting fraud.such a definitive statement from someone who didnt bother to check.

Did you do a survey? how are you "sure". that 99.9 % of people in the country thought that €20mill going to children who don;t even live in the country was scandalous. 
 Or is that another theory you picked out of the clouds.


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## csirl (13 Mar 2009)

Couldnt this be added to the list of demands for the revised Lisbon Treaty?


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## michaelm (13 Mar 2009)

sandrat said:


> the parents are living and working here in order to support the children, they are paying taxes here. And as far as I know there is an EU rule in relation to this too. It is not fraud


Yes.  It's because of EU regulations to which our Government agreed.  I suspect that many are low paid workers who are not in the income tax net (many maybe signing on at this stage).  If I was jobless, or working for a pittance and living in Eastern Europe, I reckon I'd have come to Ireland to do a minimum wage job and supplement that with Child Benefit and ECS and probably have been able to send home multiples of what I might have earned locally.  It's certainly not fraud.  I do think however that this scenario will have been socially detrimental to such Eastern countries and that our welfare and tax systems have encouraged the division of families.





sandrat said:


> . . in fact we only make up the difference see below


That sounds like it blunts the edge of the issue but many of the countries from where the migrant workers are coming pay very little or no Child Benefit;  e.g. AFAIK Poland doesn't pay any.  A particular FUBAR by our clueless Government is that Early Childcare Supplement, which was introduced specifically to help with the high cost of caring for a young child in Ireland, is also paid for non-resident children.


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## wavejumper (13 Mar 2009)

RMCF said:


> Its not an amount that will change the deficit but every little bit adds up.
> 
> Its shocking that this money is effectively being stolen from the Gov. Its fraud.
> 
> Time the Gov started to take this type of action very seriously.



Is it scandalous is it?  How about the billions the EU gave in structural funds to you and your country that that has happily been frittered away in wasteful projects, backhanders and corruption?  The EU is not just about pocketing its funds, it's also about abiding by its rules and duties. Do your research first before spouting about the institution that is currently lending you money to keep your country afloat.


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## jhegarty (13 Mar 2009)

michaelm said:


> If I was jobless, or working for a pittance and living in Eastern Europe, I reckon I'd have come to Ireland to do a minimum wage job and supplement that with Child Benefit and ECS and probably have been able to send home multiples of what I might have earned locally.




Exactly the same as the Irish have done for the last 200 years. We would be very hypercritical to object to it now.


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## RMCF (13 Mar 2009)

I will now admit that its not fraud, as the legal answerprinted here proves its not, but I still can't believe that any Gov would sign up to that.

Imagine if a person has 8 children. I find it unbelieveable that this person can come to Ireland, NOT bring a single child to this country EVER, and yet still claim very generous allowances for them, even if the only time they ever see Ireland is in a book or on TV. To me thats crazy.

Perhaps I'm old fashioned. 

And I still think that its open to fraud. All benefit systems are victims of fraud, and I don't see how this system can be policed properly. Do the benefits people in both countries interact at all with each other? If not, then there is a big chance that allowances will be claimed in both jurisdications.


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## sandrat (13 Mar 2009)

they only claim the difference between the amount they get at home and what we get here


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## thedaras (13 Mar 2009)

jhegarty said:


> Exactly the same as the Irish have done for the last 200 years. We would be very hypercritical to object to it now.


 
Excellent jhegarty.


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## thedaras (13 Mar 2009)

wavejumper said:


> Is it scandalous is it? How about the billions the EU gave in structural funds to you and your country that that has happily been frittered away in wasteful projects, backhanders and corruption? The EU is not just about pocketing its funds, it's also about abiding by its rules and duties. Do your research first before spouting about the institution that is currently lending you money to keep your country afloat.


 
Couldnt agree with you more,well done wavejumper, you took the words right out of my mouth


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## MrMan (13 Mar 2009)

wavejumper said:


> Is it scandalous is it? How about the billions the EU gave in structural funds to you and your country that that has happily been frittered away in wasteful projects, backhanders and corruption? The EU is not just about pocketing its funds, it's also about abiding by its rules and duties. Do your research first before spouting about the institution that is currently lending you money to keep your country afloat.


 
so you get the hump about a poster that is angry with 20million leaving the country to people that have never had an input here but find it perfectly ok to call the Irish corrupt and paint us as underhand wasters, nice.


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## MrMan (13 Mar 2009)

jhegarty said:


> Exactly the same as the Irish have done for the last 200 years. We would be very hypercritical to object to it now.


 
should people not evolve? go back a few more years and it would be hypocritical of the english to object to us making them speak irish as their native tongue. We cannot continually be judged on our past when we have strived to progress ourselves as a nation and achieved so much in recent years.


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## MrMan (13 Mar 2009)

sandrat said:


> they only claim the difference between the amount they get at home and what we get here


 
but is it by far more beneficial for them to claim from here? I would think so.


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## RMCF (13 Mar 2009)

jhegarty said:


> Exactly the same as the Irish have done for the last 200 years. We would be very hypercritical to object to it now.



This is stretching things a bit.

Are you saying that Irish people having been claiming allowances for family members back home for 200 years?

I am guessing that this ability to claim for children not in the country is a relatively new thing.


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## thedaras (13 Mar 2009)

MrMan said:


> so you get the hump about a poster that is angry with 20million leaving the country to people that have never had an input here but find it perfectly ok to call the Irish corrupt and paint us as underhand wasters, nice.


 
I didnt notice the poster saying that Irish people were corrupt,where did it say that?
I also dont get the impression that poster was angry about the 20m leaving the country,but rather that , they were being accused of fraud.


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## csirl (13 Mar 2009)

It's all down to the wording of the Law and what you call the benefit.

At the moment it is called Child Benefit and is paid to the children of anyone resident or working in Ireland.

We could abolish it and bring in a refundable tax credit for the cost of buying childrens clothes/food/supplies etc. in Ireland. Same as the bin charges credit in respect of the waste charges you incur in Ireland. 

For people claiming welfare, you just increase the money they already receive per child if they cannot claim the tax credit.


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## Green (13 Mar 2009)

MrMan said:


> but find it perfectly ok to call the Irish corrupt and paint us as underhand wasters, nice.


 
After the Beef Tribunal and the plethora of others Tribunal and Transparecncy Internationals recent report....Ireland still has a problem with corruption..


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## gillarosa (13 Mar 2009)

I imagine that most of the people receiving CB are entitled to it under EU and Irish law. What is more interesting is that the Department estimate the rate of fraud of Child Benefit to be approximatley €5 Million currently and their on-going investigations will hopefully soon get us to a point where only those eligible (regardless of their place of birth) will remain in receipt. That estimate would be in addition to the 3,410 recipients who were terminated during 2008 and who were discoverd during the initial mailing requesting confirmation of address / claim. So it each claim was for even only 1 child at €166 pm it would be €6,792,720.00 savings already and counting.


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## MrMan (13 Mar 2009)

YOBR said:


> After the Beef Tribunal and the plethora of others Tribunal and Transparecncy Internationals recent report....Ireland still has a problem with corruption..


 
There is corruption at different levels in every country, there is no disputing that.


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## MrMan (13 Mar 2009)

thedaras said:


> I didnt notice the poster saying that Irish people were corrupt,where did it say that?
> I also dont get the impression that poster was angry about the 20m leaving the country,but rather that , they were being accused of fraud.


 


> Is it scandalous is it? How about the billions the EU gave in structural funds to you and your country that that has happily been frittered away in wasteful projects, backhanders and corruption?


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## Fingalian (13 Mar 2009)

wavejumper said:


> Is it scandalous is it? How about the billions the EU gave in structural funds to you and your country that that has happily been frittered away in wasteful projects, backhanders and corruption? The EU is not just about pocketing its funds, it's also about abiding by its rules and duties. Do your research first before spouting about the institution that is currently lending you money to keep your country afloat.


 
It has not been a one way street. The value of fish taken from what was once our national waters by our EU partners is greater than the value of all the EU benefits which have been received by Ireland. We did not come to the table empty handed.


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## Yorrick (14 Mar 2009)

This provision is a metter of E.U. Law and cannot be changed by an individual state .I am aware of one case where a Lithuanian woman ( widowed)  is working in Ireland while her parents back home mind her child. She gets this allowance. Ireland deducts from her payment the equivalent child benefit figure which she receives in Lithuania.( which is very low in any case)

As emigration increases we will see Irish parents in England or other E.U. Countries applying to those countries for payment of child benefit in respect of children they may have left back home in Ireland while they are getting settled in to England etc.

I don't see any point in trying to change every E.U. provision. We signed up for Europe and if after negotiations certain laws are enacted which we might not necessarily support that is the price we pay for access to the European market.


The Foot and Mouth epidemic a few years ago showed the level of corruption by farmers in the borders area. Farmers were receiving million in headage payments in respect of   cattle they did not have and could not account for once the destruction of livestock started.


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## DonDub (14 Mar 2009)

RMCF said:


> This is stretching things a bit.
> 
> Are you saying that Irish people having been claiming allowances for family members back home for 200 years?
> 
> I am guessing that this ability to claim for children not in the country is a relatively new thing.


 
This is a moot point - what is clear is that Irish people have left in their millions over the last 150+ years, and that many of these used 'fair means and foul' to make a living in whatever country they emigrated/fled to.
Many Irish people worked illegally in the US in the 1980s, not to mention some who worked in the UK, while drawing the dole under several different aliases. 
Legal immigrants in Ireland are perfectely entitled to claim child benefit. I admire their determination to make a better life for themselves and their familes. I would do the same if I were in their shoes - the way the economy is going, that may happen soon....


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## diarmuidc (14 Mar 2009)

Fingalian said:


> It has not been a one way street. The value of fish taken from what was once our national waters by our EU partners is greater than the value of all the EU benefits which have been received by Ireland. .



Really? Prove it.


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## dodo (15 Mar 2009)

I read that there was 20m going to African Country's  which the government are trying to  stop.
If you have worked in Ireland for a certain  time and  you get made redundant  and go back to your home EU Country you are entitled to draw the dole for 12 weeks from Ireland even though you have gone back home.


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## liaconn (16 Mar 2009)

Its part of our EU citizenship and I presume Irish citizens have a reciprocal right if they're working abroad.

The real scandal is that child benefit is not means tested, in my view.


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## Black Sheep (17 Mar 2009)

While in theory Ireland pays the balance of CB to its imigrant workers, the practice is very different. 

Example Polish man comes to work in Ireland and applies for CB for his children still living with their mother in Poland. She is immediately contacted by Irish SW and instructed to stop the CB payment (E10 monthly) in Poland. 

From date of application to receipt of benefit usually takes up to 21/2 years.

BTW not too many of our migrant workers pay taxes (Income tax) in Ireland as they seem to work mostly for the minimum wage


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## gillarosa (18 Mar 2009)

jaybird said:


> +1 €55 billion worth of fish? Not likely!


 
Actually €200 Billion since 1974 according to EU Statistics. At the moment EU Fishery is approximatley €20 billion pa of which 40% of edible fish are fished in Irish territorial waters (90% of which are hauled by non Irish based vessels)

After Germany Ireland is the second greatest indirect contributor to the EU coffers because of this (declining) natural asset.


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## Purple (18 Mar 2009)

gillarosa said:


> Actually €200 Billion since 1974 according to EU Statistics. At the moment EU Fishery is approximatley €20 billion pa of which 40% of edible fish are fished in Irish territorial waters (90% of which are hauled by non Irish based vessels)
> 
> After Germany Ireland is the second greatest indirect contributor to the EU coffers because of this (declining) natural asset.



That’s a remarkable statistic and something I never would have thought of.


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## diarmuidc (18 Mar 2009)

gillarosa said:


> Actually €200 Billion since 1974 according to EU Statistics. At the moment EU Fishery is approximatley €20 billion pa of which 40% of edible fish are fished in Irish territorial waters (90% of which are hauled by non Irish based vessels)
> 
> After Germany Ireland is the second greatest indirect contributor to the EU coffers because of this (declining) natural asset.



Do you think Ireland has the resources to pull €200b of fish out of the seas?


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## gillarosa (20 Mar 2009)

diarmuidc said:


> Do you think Ireland has the resources to pull €200b of fish out of the seas?


 
I have no idea what resources we have in regard to manpower / fishing trawlers it would be difficult to acertain as there appears to be a great deal of legislation blocking constant fishing by Irish based Fishermen from media reports, and its a moot point as we are aware that there are now diminishing fish stocks. €200 Billion is the figure since we joined the EU, currently year on year EU totals for edible fishstocks are €20 Billion of which 40% are caught in Irish Territorial waters, therefore €8 Billion pa. That figure is the value for the product when landed, there is of course value added during processing which doubles the monetary value.


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## nesbitt (20 Mar 2009)

Black Sheep said:


> While in theory Ireland pays the balance of CB to its imigrant workers, the practice is very different.
> 
> Example Polish man comes to work in Ireland and applies for CB for his children still living with their mother in Poland. She is immediately contacted by Irish SW and instructed to stop the CB payment (E10 monthly) in Poland.
> 
> ...


 
Please clarify, are you saying it takes two and a half years from date of application to receipt of benefit?


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## gebbel (20 Mar 2009)

Yorrick said:


> As emigration increases we will see Irish parents in England or other E.U. Countries applying to those countries for payment of child benefit in respect of children they may have left back home in Ireland while they are getting settled in to England etc.



Not true, as the amount of CB paid in all of the other EU countries is less than our own here. Irish people working abroad would therefore continue to claim it from home.



Black Sheep said:


> From date of application to receipt of benefit usually takes up to 21/2 years.





nesbitt said:


> Please clarify, are you saying it takes two and a half years from date of application to receipt of benefit?



It does not take 2 1/2 years. I am aware of a claim from a Polish national here that was processed in 4 months. She just had to cancel the benefits in Poland first which I have been informed work out at 40PLN/ child (or €10 per child per month!). With such low rates there, of course they are going to claim it here. EU law says they can, so that's that. I have personally never been too comfortable, however, with the fact that this benefit can be claimed for children who are not in the country. If the kids are here, it is a legitimate award in my opinion.
But I also agree with other posters' assertions that there are much greater ills and injustices here at home that need to be tackled first.


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## Black Sheep (21 Mar 2009)

Yes I come accross cases on a daily basis where it takes two and a half years to process. That is where the father is in Ireland and the children are in another EU country

If you phone the EU Child benefit section now to ask when to expect the claim to be processed they will tell you that they are now working on claims made November 2006

gebbel. Are you saying the mother of the child applied for CB, My example showed the situation where *Polish father* applied


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