# high water table and damp from neighbour



## elainem (11 Oct 2006)

Hi! I have discovered that the problem with my damp kitchen is due to high water table - it is causing rising damp and effloresence on terracotta tiles. The remainder of the damp is apparently cuased by my neighbour's shower which is against my kitchen wall. My neighbour has his house (which is rented out) for sale, and my cousin, an engineer and I, managed to get a look at it today - very bad leak, wet floor etc. in their downstairs shower area).  The builder and damp proof specialist who looked at my house later this evening said the whole job would cost around E100k, that is to dig drain around house, dig up tiles, take out kitchen units and put membrane on floor and refix kitchen and tiling. This is without attending to the damp coming from my neighbours house.  My neighbour has always been difficult and the lack of repair to his own house has previously caused damage to mine. I fixed the damage and paid for it myself because my neighbour is just so difficult. I don't know what to do. I was intending to sell the house in February, but the damp is really bad now. Is this an excessive quote from builder and damp proof specialist for job. Can anyone know what would the legal remedy be aginst my neighbour, and how long would it take. The 100k doesn't factor in the cost of going to court. Any advice really appreciated.


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## extopia (11 Oct 2006)

100k?

Surely some mishtake?


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## elainem (11 Oct 2006)

No, extopia, 100k was mentioned - and that didn't include a contingency fund. However, the house is in D4, which always seems to bring about the most expensive quotes. Do you have any idea of what this work should cost, or what to do about it - I originally intended to sell the house without doing the work - but I don't think I can get away with that now. Thanks for your reply.


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## extopia (11 Oct 2006)

Unless you have a very, very large kitchen, with very expensive cabinets and fittings (and they're including a NEW kitchen in the price), it sounds like they're taking you for a ride, D4 or no D4.

I'd talk to a couple of other contractors. You don't need a damp specialist for this kind of work. 

I couldn't say what it should cost without knowing more about your house, but I would think you could get this done for far, far less.

It might be an idea to get a friend or relative who knows a bit about building to do the talking on your behalf if you're not confident about talking the talk with these jokers.


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## liteweight (11 Oct 2006)

100k seems very steep to me! Why do they have to dig drain around the house? Is this to lower the ground around the perimeter? We had this done when we moved into our house some years ago but I've been told that it's no longer considered necessary as other methods of damp proofing are available. The smallest part of the job was lifting the tiles, they're only laid on dirt or sand....hard to get a start but once he had one lifted, the guy had the rest lifted in an hour or so. Having said that, we had a dry rot problem and some of the builders were just asking for 'funny money'. I told one of them that I'd no intention of funding his retirement!! Having said that, I know labour is very expensive these days and hard to tie anyone down to a job.

Don't know what you can do about your neighbour but whatever it is, I imagine it'll be a long, drawn out process!! I feel for you....I really do.


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## elainem (11 Oct 2006)

Thanks liteweight, I am going to get a few more quotations. I don't know what I can do about the neighbours either - I really want to sell the house, but I agree it could be a long drawn out process.


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## extopia (11 Oct 2006)

If I was planning to sell a house I certainly would not do this kind of work, much of which may well be undone by the new owner.

The French drain around the house is actually a good idea for damp sites, it effectively sits the house on a dry "island" and is fairly standard practice when renovating older properties with non-existent or failed damp proof courses. But it's a day's work with a digger, which in some rural areas costs about €30 per hour. You then place about 100mm of pea grit in the trench, put in a land drain, and top off with larger stones. 

Digging up and replacing the subfloor and tiles is tedious but not very exacting.

The gas thing is that none of these measures will solve the problem with the leaking shower next door, as the damp could penetrate the wall, therefore bypassing the new damp proof membrane and getting down into the floor that way (just because they call it rising damp doesn't mean it always travels upwards.)


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## elainem (12 Oct 2006)

Thalnks for the info. extopia.  The french drain must be what my engineer cousin was talking about. 

I don't really want to do any of this work, as I am on my own with 2 young children, and so it is extra stress I don't need. However, I'm afraid the house won't sell if I don't do it - and people viewing it my see that the prolem is arising from my neighbour's house - which would put buyer's off.

With regard to the damp from my neighbour's house - is it possible that the damp from his shower on one side of the room could be causing peeling paint on the other side of the room and also effloresence of the tiles in the middle of the floor - I really don't know what to believe - as when it comes to period houses there seems to be so many conflicting opinions.


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## ClubMan (12 Oct 2006)

Just curious - when did you buy this house and did you get a detailed structural survey done at the time? If you did and they missed this perhaps you have some comeback? Are you absolutely sure about how much the problems are attributable to your neighbour's shower etc. and how much to the high water table? I all seems a bit confused to me from reading the above.


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## extopia (12 Oct 2006)

No, it's unlikely your neighbour's shower is causing this amount of trouble. It's likely the result of having no DPC, as your damp specialist has said.

If your house is in a good location and priced correctly it shouldn't be a problem. You certainly won't get the cost of the renovation back, and the new owner may well want to do a total renovation anyway - or at least rebuild the kitchen and bathrooms.

What does your local estate agent say?


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## extopia (12 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> Just curious - when did you buy this house and did you get a detailed structural survey done at the time?



In my opinion, structual surveys are not as useful as they should be. There's rarely any comeback because the standard wording covers the surveyor's posterior for "invisible" problems, "work covered up" etc.

You don't need a high water table to get rising damp, by the way. If there's no DPC, you will have dampness, period. It's just more obvious when the water table is higher.


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## liteweight (12 Oct 2006)

extopia said:


> If I was planning to sell a house I certainly would not do this kind of work, much of which may well be undone by the new owner.



It's a difficult one really. I know from previous posts that elainem expects to sell for 1.8m. As I know the location, I think she'll get more. With this calibre of house, vendors will always get a surveyor in and the damp problem (especially if potential purchaser is given a ball park figure of 100k for kitchen alone) might bring down the value of the property. On the other hand, the work, stress and the fact that she lives in the midlands might make it worth taking the hit. A surveyor might not realise that some of the damp is coming from next door as, presumably he won't have access.



			
				extopia said:
			
		

> The French drain around the house is actually a good idea for damp sites, it effectively sits the house on a dry "island" and is fairly standard practice when renovating older properties with non-existent or failed damp proof courses. But it's a day's work with a digger, which in some rural areas costs about €30 per hour. You then place about 100mm of pea grit in the trench, put in a land drain, and top off with larger stones.



It's called a French drain....didn't know that. The house is very close to the centre of the city so a digger on Leeson St..........don't know what the multiplier might be. I don't see how a dry island could be effective if the house is terraced, or semi detached...it's not possible to create a dry island. 

When we had ours done, they dug up the front garden and dropped the level to below the original damp proof course. The plaster was stripped from the walls inside up to a height of five feet. The walls were then injected with some form of damp proofer. Plaster was replaced, but the walls in my red brick porch still have a 'tide mark' from this process. So it looks as if it's damp but it's not!! 

Neighbours over the years have had the damp proofing process carried out, but it has become much simpler. They come and inject the walls on the outside. Takes a little longer to dry out and the red bricks outside have little plug holes in them but oh the convenience and so much cheaper!! I really thing elainem should get a lot more quotes for this work. 



> The gas thing is that none of these measures will solve the problem with the leaking shower next door, as the damp could penetrate the wall, therefore bypassing the new damp proof membrane and getting down into the floor that way (just because they call it rising damp doesn't mean it always travels upwards.)



Exactly, with a bit of luck, next door will be sold and the new neighbours will sort it all out.


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## elainem (12 Oct 2006)

Thanks for your reply, Liteweight. My preference would be to take the hit on the property and avoid the stress - my children's welfare and my own peace of mind are more important. However, I don't know how to cover up the problem from next door. I don't know if next door will be sold.  It is in absolutely dreadful condition. It went to auction last Thursday and failed to attract even one bidder at 1.6 million - alas, the softening of the market - or maybe even the crash appears to be upon us! If anyone has any suggestions on how to disguise the probem - I'm trying to be as ethical as possible here!! - I would be really grateful.  Currently, my lovely terracotta tiles along the party wall are going mouldy. I don't want to engage in a legal fight with my neighbour - who is also a solicitor - unless absolutely necessary.


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## ClubMan (12 Oct 2006)

extopia said:


> In my opinion, structual surveys are not as useful as they should be. There's rarely any comeback because the standard wording covers the surveyor's posterior for "invisible" problems, "work covered up" etc.


I thought that there was a certain amount of comeback for clients if the surveyor did not identify certain (obvious?) problems? I guess the divil is in the detail of the contract involved?


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## extopia (12 Oct 2006)

The value of the house is irrelevant. 100k is still a ridiculous quote, in my opinion. I wouldn't tell the builder that you're going to sell the house on, by the way - it might be too tempting for the builder to do a cover-up job knowing there'll be no comeback.

If it's a terraced or semi-D house, yeah, the French drain will not work. Dropping the ground level to below the DPC (essential, did this myself in my own house) is even simpler - and cheaper. We live in a terraced house and did it with shovels in a few hours.

No bids at 1.6m for a damp house! What's the world coming to?


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## extopia (12 Oct 2006)

ClubMan said:


> I thought that there was a certain amount of comeback for clients if the surveyor did not identify certain (obvious?) problems? I guess the divil is in the detail of the contract involved?



Exactly - and until surveyors are forced to do a proper job, with a proper contract that covers both sides - structural surveys will continue to be of less value than they should be, in my opinion.


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## liteweight (12 Oct 2006)

I suppose you could damp proof the floor and dry line the walls.


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## elainem (12 Oct 2006)

Thanks for your replies, liteweight and extopia. As you can see I'm still awake and fretting about it at this ungodly hour! Litweight, is it possible to just dryline the wall and put a waterproof membrane on the floor as you suggested? Half of the party wall was already drylined when my mother renovated the house in 1989.  This half of the wall has no damp whatsoever.  If I could get away with drylining it, and waterproofing the floor, then I would. As I said I don't want to engage with this guy - he is oabnoxious anyway, and he's also a legal eagle.


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## liteweight (12 Oct 2006)

Oh I'd say it has damp, you just can't see it because of the dry lining!! I'm not a builder, although owning an old house, I sometimes feel like one!! Of course it's possible to dry line the walls. The damp shouldn't come through as long as the wall board is put on laths. These would have to be protected by some sort of waterproof membrane. As other posters have said, whoever buys the place will probably gut it...the kitchen at least. With a bit of luck some of the building experts will pick up on your post and give you a better answer with regard to your options.


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## extopia (12 Oct 2006)

Drylining doesn't fix the problem - it covers it up. If I was looking at a house, I'd be very suspicious of newly applied dry lining (or any new work in general).


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## liteweight (12 Oct 2006)

That's right it covers it up. Will definitely not sort out damp,


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## elainem (12 Oct 2006)

Hi! Liteweight and Extopia, I talked to the damp course specialist today, and he recommended 'tanking' if the neighbour next door would not sort the problem out on his side. Can either of you enlighten me as to what exactly 'tanking' (if that is the spelling) is. Apparently floors can also be tanked. Thanks. ElaineM


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## liteweight (12 Oct 2006)

As far as I know, tanking is a mixture of cement and a latex stuff which is trowelled onto the walls and floor. It's used to damp proof cellars and such like where the water table might be a problem. When they've done this they put up the laths and dry line the wall! Good solution I suppose but what's the bill going to be.........much, much less I hope.


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## extopia (12 Oct 2006)

Have you ever approached this neighbour and shown him the results of his leaking shower? Obnoxious or not, surely he will realise that if there is this much damage on your side, his own side is far worse and it should be fixed. If the worst came to the worst, it might be better for you to pay for fixing his leak than trying to remedy it from your side, which is a project doomed to failure.

Tanking is OK in a basement, but I wouldn't do it in a kitchen to be honest. You'd still have to fix your floor afterwards.

What's your estate agent's take on the kind of remedial work you should be doing?


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## elainem (12 Oct 2006)

Lite


weight and extopia - thanks again for your comments. Extopia, I haven't showed the neigbour the effects of this particular problem yet. He has the house rented out most of the time to students. His lack of care of his own house has previously caused damage to my roof which he refused to pay for, and I had to get fixed myself - bearing the total cost - though I did not mind as I just wanted the probelm fixed. 

My estate agent thinks I should do as little as possibe. However. I'm afraid the sate of the kitchen will put buyers off.

Extopia, if you don't think tanking is suitable for a kitchen, can you tell me what solution you would use for an area with a high water table, where water seepage appears to be happening from underground also - e.g. effloresence on floor and mould growth on floor also. Do I need drainage around the side of the house etc.

Thanks, ElaineM.


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## extopia (12 Oct 2006)

Hi Elaine - no need to repost the details of the problem again.

The proper solution is the first suggestion of your damp proof specialist - dig up the floor and put in a damp proof membrane. For the walls, if there is no DPC, either inject with the special chemical referenced above, or alternatively use an electro-osmosis system, which is basically a wire in the wall that repels the moisture. I installed this latter system myself a couple of years ago and working well. Much less invasive than the injection system.

If there is water seeping through your walls from a faulty shower installation next door, there is nothing you can really do about it to be honest, except cover it up with a good stabiliser and paint job and hope for the best.


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## liteweight (12 Oct 2006)

If the kitchen is down a level i.e. long hall, couple of steps down, then it's quite feasible to tank it, I think. It would certainly get you over the sale period. The floor is lifted and treated also so you're effectively creating a water tight box. If water is coming in from next door, tanking should stop it unless the flow is very heavy. This is why it's used for basement etc. which are totally below street level.

As for the tiles on the floor...a lot of houses in D4 have this problem, the reason being that the tiles were laid directly onto the sandy soil. I'm not a builder and am only passing on my experience of renovating.


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## elainem (13 Oct 2006)

Extopia, so the best idea would be a drain below the level of dampcourse outside, digging up the floor and putting a waterproof membrane on it, and using damp coursing walls with electric charge method which repels water. I presume there would be no problem in putting back the original kitchen when the work is finished.  Sorry, I have to put everything in layman's terms, as I find it all a bit mind boggling.

Liteweight, you're right about the kitchen being at the end of a long hallway and down steps.  It is actually down three steps. There was a damp course in it originally, put in in 1989, but it seems to have been breached. I really don't know why the water table has risen -and I don't know how to find this out. I know the kitchen area doesn't comply with regulations, as in it is not suficienlty above the ground outside in the yard. There was nothing mymother could do about this at the time, as it would have meant altering the structure of the house, which is a listed building - plus the ceiling in the kitchen itself is actually quite low. Do you still think tanking would work?

I don't want to mention damp proofing specialist names. I have contacted one in Crumlin, and have the name of another in Blackrock (not Damp Store). Both are well known damp coursing specialists.  Would either of you rater one of these above the other, or have any other recommendations.

Finally, what chance is there that the damp could affect the foundations. If I put in a waterproof membrane/tank and dig a drain outside, does that mean the water is still under the house? Any advice again appreciated. I find the whole thing confusing - it seems like I'm getting a crash course in building and damp proofing lingo!!


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## extopia (13 Oct 2006)

Hi elaine - yes, that's what I would do if I were living in this house myself. The drain outside is probably a bit of overkill, but I suppose it depends on how wet the ground is.

As I've said before, I probably would not do this if I was about to sell the house, but that's up to you.

Can't comment on damp specialists in Dublin. Used the Damp Store about 10 years ago for chemical injection, which has begun to show signs of failure in a couple of spots.


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## ludermor (13 Oct 2006)

Elaine,
the crowd in Blackrock are reputable,so you shouldnt have any worries there


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## liteweight (13 Oct 2006)

Elaine, I thing you're 'over thinking' the situation due to stress! You're selling so do what it takes to get the place in order. I'm not suggesting you cover anything up. Everything you've mentioned so far are decent if expensive jobs. Digging the drain outside might prove more hassle than it's worth as the building is listed. I thought they made you jump through all kinds of hoops before they let you do anything major? Like Extopia, I used Damp Store and found them good but it's a long time ago now. No breakthroughs yet, thankfully.


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## elainem (15 Oct 2006)

Extopia, Lurdemor and liteweight, thanks again for your replies. I think I'll probably go with tanking and new damp proof membrane on the floor. I have planning permisson to deal with damp, but don't know if that would include digging a drain.

Liteweight - You're probably right, I am overthinking the situation due to stress. I find it difficult dealing with this situation when I'm on my own with two small kids, and not having an idea about building or property mainteanance. But I really appreciate all of your advice and contributions. At least I'll feel much more knowledgeable when discussing these issues with damp specialists, and also in relation to negotiating a much better price.


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## extopia (15 Oct 2006)

elainem said:


> I think I'll probably go with tanking and new damp proof membrane on the floor.



Don't forget the DMP on the floor is the original "€100k solution." 

A floor DPM will not prevent rising damp getting above the floor level through the foundations and walls, so you need to take care of this either by chemical injection, electro-osmosis system, or physical damp proof course built into the walls. "Tanking" might take care of the effects in the short term but if you're going to go this route (and I pity the buyer of your house) why bother with the floor DPM?

Find a builder you can trust, or someone you can trust to deal with a builder. You're going around in circles with this, in my opinion, and you're about to waste a lot of money.


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## liteweight (15 Oct 2006)

extopia said:


> A floor DPM will not prevent rising damp getting above the floor level through the foundations and walls, so you need to take care of this either by chemical injection, electro-osmosis system, or physical damp proof course built into the walls. "Tanking" might take care of the effects in the short term but if you're going to go this route (and I pity the buyer of your house) why bother with the floor DPM?



A floor DPM will usually rise up the wall to a certain extent...it will stop water rising up and will keep the floor dry. Tanking is designed to prevent water seeping in from the outside and is mainly used in cellars. Elaine's mother has already tried to solve this problem but was not allowed. The original 100K quote also included  dropping the soil levels outside.

It's a little unfair to pity the buyer...lots of people would have dry lined the walls and put the house on the market. Buyer beware!! Their architect should spot any flaw. Elaine is doing her best to solve the problem.

I would talk to the neighbour. As his house is up for sale, he might be willing to turn the water off at the mains, particularly if you pass the message on through the EA.


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## Duplex (15 Oct 2006)

Its worth noting that the existence of rising damp is a contentious subject.  Many problems attributed to RD may actually be caused by condensation, and water ingress from other sources rather than water rising through the structure  .   It seems that in this specific instance a rise in the water table is the issue.  I wonder however if  neighbours are experiencing the same problem?.   



http://www.konrad-fischer-info.de/2auffen.htm


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## extopia (15 Oct 2006)

liteweight said:


> A floor DPM will usually rise up the wall to a certain extent...



While this might sometimes be true in a new construction it is difficult to implement in a renovation context. The DPM is laid under the subfloor and lapped up around the SIDES to the top of the floor finish. You can't extend it it into the walls without taking out a course of bricks or blocks.


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## Duplex (15 Oct 2006)

Question to the original poster.   Are the windows in the property double glazed units?


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## extopia (15 Oct 2006)

Good point about condensation - I'd assumed that this might have been ruled out, but assumptions are dangerous.

Good ventilation is important for preventing condensation, especially in moisture prone areas like kitchens and bathrooms. Are there permanent vents in place in your kitchen, or any other openings leading to the outside, such as an open fireplace?


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## elainem (16 Oct 2006)

Duplex and extopia - how do I know if it is condensation. The damp specialist did say the effloresence on the floor was due to condensation. I just didn't understand how this could be. Duplex - the windows are double glazed, but they are the windows my mother put in in 1989, and there was no damp for 13 years after she renovated the property at that time. I do know that the tenants now are drying clothes on a clothes horse in the kitchen, and that the kitchen which is 22 feet by 15 feet is always cluttered, not dirty,but just madly cluttered - I don't know if this contributes to any condensation. Can either of you tell me how condensation actually arises and what role it actually plays in rising damp and effloresence?

The other problem which I feel may be contributing to the damp is the raised flower bed on the opposite wall in the yard to the kitchen. I recently removed all plants. They had become very overgrown, the clematis was just wild, and I felt that when it rained that the water from these plants was dripping onto my yard, causing a green film to appear on it. I don't know if these overgrown plants in the garden were a contributory cause to the damp.

I still can't understand how the damp course became bridged after thriteen or so years. I though these were at least a twenty year job. Extopia, did you say that you had damp proofing done in your house, and it is now coming through again. How does a damp course become bridged? God, what a learning curve!!


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## Duplex (16 Oct 2006)

This link explains the causes and effects of condensation elainem.  In a nutshell it's when moisture laden air comes into contact with a relatively cold surface and condenses i.e changes from a gas to a liquid.   As extopia mentions adequate ventilation is important in ensuring sufficient air circulation/changes.  A kitchen with cooking and clothes drying needs plenty of passive ventilation, needless to say.


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## extopia (16 Oct 2006)

OK - if your damp specialist said the efflorescence is due to condensation and not rising damp that's a good thing and it suggests that you do NOT after all need a damp proof membrane inserted under the floor. (So why, I ask, did he or she suggest that?)

 What you need is a good passive ventilation system (i.e. one that doesn't have to be turned on to work!) In older houses, a permanently open wall vent would be the typical system. Period houses (including mine) were often built without these as there were plenty of other openings to do the job - fireplaces, loose-fitting windows and other sources of drafts! 

Drying clothes on the clothes horse, along with normal cooking vapours, will contribute vastly to condensation unless you have good ventilation in place. Installing vents may solve your problem right away (any handyman should be able to do this for you, you shouldn't have to spend a lot.)

Unless the raised flowerbeds are on the kitchen wall you can stop worrying about them. Your post is ambiguous but I think you mean they are across the yard i.e. not in contact with the kitchen wall or any other wall of your house, correct? 

If they ARE in contact with the house wall, I'd get rid of them. Ground level (including raised beds) should always be below your inside floor level - unless your kitchen is actually below ground (i.e. a cellar) in which special precautions (tanking) should be used.

Elaine, yes, I said I had chemical injection done in one property 10 years ago. There are signs of failure in a couple of spots (flaking paint about a foot above the floor level). I used the electro osmosis system in another house, working well but it's been in less than a year so can't comment on long term performance.

Yes, maintaining older properties has a learning curve and it's not for everyone (personally I think it's worth it but I understand why not everyone would!)


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## elainem (18 Oct 2006)

Hi extopia, lurdemoor and liteweight, I managed to get surveyor into neighbours house, on pretext I was interested in buying it. He reckons it is a burst pipe. We saw a large puddle of water on the floor of my neighbours shower room, which backs on to my kitchen. He reckons all the damp in my kitchen is due to this burst pipe which is flowing under my tiles, and is also causing symptoms of rising damp on other side of room. My solicitor says we will ask him to agree to fix the problem. If he does not respond immediately, an injunction will be issued. Apparently there is no denying that the damage is solely caused by the leaking pipe in his house. Apparently tanking won't do anthing due to the volume of water going under my floor from the neighbours house. So I guess it is the legal route - not what I would have wanted, but it seems the only way. Thanks a mil to all of you for all the info.


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## ludermor (19 Oct 2006)

Id be a bit wary of that advice. It is not unusual to have a puddle in the floor of a shower! Is there people still living next door?
Your room would still need to be tanked if it is an old property. And tanking would help the problem ( in that room anyway) however it may just pushed the problem elsewhere


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## simp (19 Oct 2006)

I have been reading this thread with interest - and have a small related question - sorry for hijacking!

We bought our 100 year old house last year, and had lots of work done on it.  We had a DPC guy come and inject a chemical DPC, and recommended replastering to a height of 1m with a salt-inhibitor to get rid of any residual hygroscopic salts in the plaster.  My builder didn't think this necessary and did not replaster.

Now we have some isolated damp patches on the wall - they form a dew especially when it is raining.  They are completely isolated and do not stretch down as far as floor level.

I need to figure out whose fault it is - and whether it's worth fixing.  The builder says he thinks that the DPC failed - but that he'll replaster if he's at fault.  The DPC guy says that it's residual hygroscopic salts, which are harmless, and that "the cure is worse than the disease" (he has quite a poetic turn of phrase)...  It's not fatal, but there are bookshelves near the damp patches, and it's making the paint flake in some spots...

So I'm not sure what to do - or who to believe.  Dealing with old houses is not straightforward!  Any advice would be appreciated.


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## Duplex (19 Oct 2006)

simp said:


> I have been reading this thread with interest - and have a small related question - sorry for hijacking!
> 
> We bought our 100 year old house last year, and had lots of work done on it. We had a DPC guy come and inject a chemical DPC, and recommended replastering to a height of 1m with a salt-inhibitor to get rid of any residual hygroscopic salts in the plaster. My builder didn't think this necessary and did not replaster.
> 
> ...


 
Your situation illustrates why many surveyors are 'wary' about the universal rising damp diagnosis.  Water penetration through poor brickwork, faulty rainwater guttering and downpipes and condensation on cold spots are far more likely causes of dampness.  First check if the damp spots correspond with any defects in the external facing bricks, if the the exterior walls are rendered check to see if the render is blown.


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## simp (19 Oct 2006)

Duplex said:


> Your situation illustrates why many surveyors are 'wary' about the universal rising damp diagnosis. Water penetration through poor brickwork, faulty rainwater guttering and downpipes and condensation on cold spots are far more likely causes of dampness.  First check if the damp spots correspond with any defects in the external facing bricks, if the the exterior walls are rendered check to see if the render is blown.



The main reason that our builder did not replaster was that he did not believe that we had rising damp at all - I had the DPC injected just in case. He attributed everything to penetrating damp.

There was some problems with the rainwater goods - which we had fixed and replaced where necessary. The room in question is properly vented, so we do not suspect condensation. But yes - the render is blown in several places.  Our builder has offered to paint the brick and render with a PVC sealant to waterproof it, but I'm very reluctant to do that.  (I've heard that every time you use PVC, they club a baby seal to death in Greenland.) More to the point - the damp patches are occurring mostly around the chimney breast, and not near the front wall...

I - and the builder and the DPC guy - are at a loss to explain these isolated patches of damp plaster...  I am reluctant to get out another DPC firm to look things over - not sure I trust them to be objective - should I get a surveyor in to investigate?

P.S. elainem - sorry for hijacking your thread!


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## extopia (19 Oct 2006)

Is the chimney breast on an outside wall? How close to the chimney are the damp patches? You say that a dew is formed - do you mean that you can see actual water droplets on these patches? If so it sounds like condensation but I don't know why it would condense on specific patches unless they are colder than the surrounding wall...


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## Duplex (19 Oct 2006)

Chimney stacks are often the source of water ingress in older buildings. Common problems include failures in flues, brickwork and mortar joints, flashings and cement rendered capping atop stacks.  Get a building surveyor (with a ladder) to give it the once over.


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## simp (19 Oct 2006)

It's a standard-issue late C19th Dublin redbrick terraced house.  The chimney breast is half-way along the party wall.  Damp patches on the chimney itself, and on immediately adjoining walls, isolated, to a height of about 1M, no higher.  No droplets, just a thin film of moisture.

The damp-guy, the chimney-sweep and the stove-installer have all said that the chimney is in good condition, and that if there were a problem, I'd be more likely to see it higher up...

Just spoke to another damp company - the ones I didn't use 'cos they were expensive (false encomony) - they tell me the problem has arisen (probably) because there's damp plaster in situ, so they'll have to strip back and replaster...  To do that wall will be about €1500-€2000...  Which doesn't sound so bad to me...  As long as it solves the problem!


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## Duplex (19 Oct 2006)

Simp
You mentioned that the damp problem was more evident when it rained. This makes me wonder if the problem is caused by water ingress through the building fabric. The fact that the chimney breast is effected (which forms part of a party wall) makes me wonder if the stack (ie the exposed part of the chimney)  is not weather tight.  Water entering  a building will fall through the structure until it pools or evaporates.  An injected DPC acts as a barrier to both rising and falling damp. I think it would be worth checking the condition of the stack before undertaking any other works. I've attached a link which explains stacks and their typical defects.   

http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/services/chimney.htm

PS if you have a pair of binoculars you should be able to get a good look at the stack.


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## extopia (19 Oct 2006)

Or maybe you can get into your attic and have a look there - you might notice something.


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## simp (19 Oct 2006)

Thanks for your comments about the chimney / rain.  Everyone has said that the chimney is fine - but our neighbour has said that they can't install a stove because of their messed up chimney...   So I hope that their issues aren't affecting us!  It's worth looking into.  As I've mentioned - the damp is *only* up to 1m on ground level - and if it were a general chimney issue, I'd expect to find it higher - is that logical?  Our attic is fine - we use it for storage - so I can see no evidence of anything wrong with the stack there.

I came across a good article on that site you mention, Duplex, about DPCs and re-plastering - http://tinyurl.com/ioxt - and it would seem possible that our problem is not due to a failed DPC, but to a lack of re-plastering...

> The importance of the replastering works associated with the                 insertion of chemical damp-proof courses cannot be over-emphasised. Chemical                 damp-proof coursing must be regarded as an _integrated system_, the                 damp-proof course _and_ the replastering. The chemical damp-proof course                 will _control_ the rising dampness and the new plasterwork will complete                 the system by preventing residual moisture, especially at the base of the wall,                 and contaminant salts in the underlying masonry from passing to the new                 decorative surface.


I also came across a useful table on another site ([broken link removed], the relevant portion being:-



> *EFFECT: *Damp patches showing on plaster as an after effect of rising damp. Occasionally, damp patches on chimney breast.
> *TIME & WEATHER: *Before and possibly during                      rain (typically 'comes and goes'). *
> PROBABLE CAUSE: *Hygroscopic (damp absorbed                      from the atmosphere by salts in plaster & general masonry)



This matches our experience quite closely...  And chimes with what this new Damp company we're speaking with think.

But maybe I should get an independent surveyor in?


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## Duplex (19 Oct 2006)

simp said:


> Thanks for your comments about the chimney / rain. Everyone has said that the chimney is fine - but our neighbour has said that they can't install a stove because of their messed up chimney... So I hope that their issues aren't affecting us! It's worth looking into. As I've mentioned - the damp is *only* up to 1m on ground level - and if it were a general chimney issue, I'd expect to find it higher - is that logical? Our attic is fine - we use it for storage - so I can see no evidence of anything wrong with the stack there.
> 
> I came across a good article on that site you mention, Duplex, about DPCs and re-plastering - http://tinyurl.com/ioxt - and it would seem possible that our problem is not due to a failed DPC, but to a lack of re-plastering...I also came across a useful table on another site ([broken link removed], the relevant portion being:-
> 
> ...


 
I think correct diagnosis before treatment would be doctors orders.


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## extopia (20 Oct 2006)

Get the surveyor in by all means. But as you were told before, "the cure may be worse than the disease." Maybe you can live with this, or maybe the 1500-2000 to replaster one wall (an outrageous quote that sums up the times we live in) is worth it to you.


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## trowel (20 Oct 2006)

Hello Elainem,
You are getting some very helpfull responses from people, which is a good thing! You really need to get someone with experience that you can trust to come out to your property and really look into the problem for you. No-one is able to give a diagnosis of the problem with out first seeing the property. The dampness could come from 1,2,3,4, or more problems combined. My reading of the problem with your neighbour is that if an engineer has looked at the property and he says he is certain that there is a leak in his pipework, then you should relay this to your neighbour and explain to him that it is only lessening the value of his property as well as yours. He could also put a claim into his insurance company which would pay for the damage to your property as well. The insurance policy should cover the homeowner for the damaged caused by the pipework. As you think the damage is coming from his supposed leaking pipe, then in my mind you are covered on his policy. If you want more information, you can send an email to my address, 
Good luck with whatever you do,
Trowel.


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## simp (20 Oct 2006)

Duplex said:


> I think correct diagnosis before treatment would be doctors orders.



Of course, the damp company will give me their opinion, but it will probably involve a lucrative job for them...  Would a standard surveyor do the trick, or would it be better to engage a specialist in these matters - and if so, would anyone have any recommendations?


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## Duplex (20 Oct 2006)

simp said:


> Of course, the damp company will give me their opinion, but it will probably involve a lucrative job for them... Would a standard surveyor do the trick, or would it be better to engage a specialist in these matters - and if so, would anyone have any recommendations?


 

I'd suggest that you ask a Chartered Building Surveyor or a Civil Engineer for a quote on the cost of an opinion as to the cause of the damp patches. (you don't require a full structural survey)


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## simp (20 Oct 2006)

I just got off the phone after a 15 minute chat with a guy from Pat McGovern's Chartered Building Surveyors - whom I'd seen recommended elsewhere here on the forums.  Refreshingly, he told me that he'd rather try to isolate the problem over the phone than put me to expense!

Based on what I told him, his hunch was that it was the chimney - as you yourself suggested, Duplex - since the damp only comes during rain, and is close to the chimney breast.  So I'll ask our builder to have a look...

Thanks for your suggestions!


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## elainem (21 Oct 2006)

Hi! all. I'm now even more confused. The architect who renovated the house for my mother in 1989 had a look at the damp. He is arranging for plasterer, and someone to remove and replace kitchen units. He would not write a report to say that all the damp was coming from my neighbour's house, he said he thought it was a contributory factor, but wouldn't say how much he felt it was contributing. We didn't manage to see next door, but I had one good photo of the pool of water on my neighbour's floor. He feels that the walls should be tanked, and the tiles removed so that the original dpc membrane on the floor can be brought up to meet the tanking. He couldn't tell me why the damp is so excessive, or where it is coming from, despite my questioning him. Has any one any comments on this? I feel like I'm going around in circles, between what the engineer said - that it is a leak from my neighbour's pipe - to what my architect is saying. Do I need to get a chartered building surveyor e.g. someone like Pat McGovern to give me a report. The other engineers report wasn't for court.

Ludermor - if I do tank the walls you mentoned there was a possibiity of damp moving somewhere else - is this true? What other problems could tanking create?

What a mess.


Thanks again to all of you.

Elainem.


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## ludermor (23 Oct 2006)

Elaine,
If you tank the room then you are only sealing that individual room. If there is damp getting the far it will just move around until it find another route out, you will just be moving the problem from one room to another. It will depen d on the outside level of the ground and the level of the kitchen, (i think you said earlier that the room is below ground level) If so and the kitchen is below the rest of the ground floor of the house you might be ok


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## liteweight (23 Oct 2006)

Elaine, I think you've taken enough professional advice now, it must be costing you a fortune at this stage. Fingers crossed that the guy next door fixes his problem in order to secure a sale. If he does this then the bulk of your problem may be gone and your place will just need time to dry out. The OP is correct about water finding an out I'm afraid but I think I know the type of kitchen you have and tanking should be ok.


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## elainem (25 Oct 2006)

Hi! Lurdemor and Liteweight. Thanks again for your replies. Liteweight, unfortunately the neighbour next door has decided to take his property off the market - it did't even attract one offer - and to rent it out again to students. He has been approprached about the leak but to no avail. He doesn't want to sepnd the money on it - though the issue of insurance covering it was also mentioned. I have photographs of the leak in his house, but because I entered the house under a deception - i.e. that I was interested in buying it - these photograps cannot be used in court. Nobody, either architect or engineers seems to be willing to write a report stating that the dampness in my kitchen is due to the shower next door without seeing the neighbour's house, though they have admitted that this is likely to be a contributory factor.Unfortunately, I cannot get in to inspect the neighbour's property without a Court Order. It's completely mad!!

I have decided on tanking the kitchen. The kitchen is lower than the rest of the house by 3 steps. However, it is slightly higher than the ground outside in the yard. I think about an inch higher. I am looking at a sump and drain for yard area. Hope this works.

Any  more insights appreciated, and yes Liteweight, the whole process is costing a small fortune, but the stress of it all is the worst part.

The damp proof specialists I have in mind to do the job are either the one in Blackrock or another well known firm in Crumlin. Has anyone experience of either. I know Lurdemor you said the ones in Blackrock are very reputable. Do you know anything about the ones in Crumlin?


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## ludermor (26 Oct 2006)

Elaine,
If its Dampco you are talking about then yes they are good.


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## elainem (28 Oct 2006)

hi! everyone. Was in my house Dublin yesterday. Noticed that some of the internal walls were slightly damp after rain - is this high water table?

Also on the kitchen floor, anywhere it was covered by a mat or bin, there was a small puddle of water under it. Is this damp coming up from ground due to bridged damp floor membrane, or a leak or hydrostatic pressure. I'm really confused now.

Would a drain and sump help.

Thanks.

Elaine.


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## simp (28 Oct 2006)

I got a good dehumidifier last week, and now, the damp patches on the walls - which were appearing during rain - are no longer present.  As an interim solution, I would recommend this - if you haven't already tried it.

With regard to damp proofing companies, I dealt both with the people from Blackrock, and those from Crumlin - the former were quite brusque, pushy and expensive, the latter competitively priced and charming.  So we went with the latter.  Unfortunately, as mentioned, our builder did not strip the affected plaster - so this may be causing our ongoing problems.  I would say, however, that the Crumlin guy advised us to live with the damp plaster, whereas the B'rock guy wants us to contract him to replaster for what other posters think is a crazy sum.  Make of that what you will.

Best of luck with it - damp in old houses is a knotty issue!


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## elainem (28 Oct 2006)

Thanks simp for your reply. I had the same experience as you. Much preferred the guy from Crumlin, though he felt it was a leak and not much he could do with it. The guy from Blackrock said it wasn't a leak, but rising damp, and wanted to tank the wall, and bring the dpc on floor up to meet the tanking. He and my architect, who are both friends and colleagues, got really annoyed when I challenged them, and suggested that it may be either a leak or something to do with high water table. 

I will definitely try the dehumidifer.

Do you know what these puddles on the floor are - they appear when something like a bin or mat has been placed on the floor?

Do you have any opinions of whether it is better to tackle the damp before selling. I really want to sell, but don't want to put buyers off.

Thanks again for your reply.


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## simp (30 Oct 2006)

Hi elainem.  My experience exactly.  I really did feel that the Blackrock guy was trying to sell me the maximum no matter what; whereas his Crumlin colleague was trying to help me do the mimimum.  When the latter came back to look at the damp plaster, his comment was that the "cure was worse than the disease" - whereas B'rock guy - who's coming round next week to take another look, wants to rip the entire wall apart.  I don't know who the hell to believe!

All I know is that the surveyor from McGovern's, who kindly gave me 15m of his time on the phone, was very reluctant to attribute the problem to rising damp.  While there is general consensus that it does exist, most experts would say that it is quite rare.

I would hazard a guess that your floor puddles are condensation caused by your leaving something on the floor - water vapours getting trapped between the two surfaces.  It sounds - no matter what the cause - that you definitely have higher than normal humidity in the room - so do put in a dehumidifier.  We got one with a visible humidistat, so you can see what the average humidity in the room is.  It's been on for a week, and we've gone from an average humidity of 70, down to 50.  Be warned that your plants will need more watering, though!  This should hopefully bring things under control.  We found that Argos had a good range of models - DeLonghi and eBac have good reputations.

As to whether to tackle the damp before selling - I would ask myself whether the buyer will be likely to be doing major works to the kitchen.  If you think they will, then why go to too much expense in the kitchen when your works will probably end up being dug up anyhow?  If, however, you think that the kitchen is a selling point, then by all means solve the damp problem first.

But for the sake of your peace of mind - I would define a reasonable point beyond which you will walk away from the damp problem - otherwise you could be trying to solve it till doomsday!  Hopefully the dehumidifier will stabilise things in the interim.


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## rabg06400 (9 Dec 2006)

Hello,

Just wanted some advice. About 2 years ago we decorated our while basement to be a games room. The floor is tiled and there is waterproof membraning on the concrete base.

Everything was fine till October this year. Now we are getting gallons of clear water coming in and up through the tiles. We have thoroughly investigated our drainage system and water pipes. Everything is fine. 

We notice that the water ingress is much worse when it rains. When it stops raining for about 3 weeks, the floor drys after continous vacuuming of the water.

I have been told that my property is in a very high water table. If the water ingress is due to this, I have the following questions:

1. Is the water normally clear? ( looks like drinking tap water)

2. I can empty out about 30 litres of water every 15 mins. Is this a normal flow rate for water ingress secondary to a high water table?

I would appreciate your advice. Many thanks.


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