# Sight lines and Planning Permission



## winston smit (27 Feb 2007)

Hi all 

A quick query - does anyone know the minimum standard for sight lines if you are accessing a regional road in a 60kph zone (site is on the outskirts of town)? the NRA guidelines state 90m but I'm wondering if anyone has any experience of this. I've just been refused planning on this condition (have no problems local needs, design of house is fine, etc) despite having 120metres and over 200m the other direction. I haven't had a chance to read the report yet but I would welcome any advice or input. My architect is quite annoyed and is suggesting appealing to An Bord Pleanala (it's our second refusal) but i'm a little nervous about going through this process as that's it if we fail.

what's really annoying is that in my county's development plan the road is going to be straightened anyway, which would give me 200m each way.

any suggestions gratefully appreciated


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## arasain (27 Feb 2007)

Our Planning conditions stipulated 70m each side of our entrance. Our house is in rural east galway (tertiary road) and subject, I assume, to the county development plan


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## JoeHooker (27 Feb 2007)

Winston,

You will have to go with your county development plan this is usually where the planning department determine there sightline distances, make sure you have the proper determination of the road. I would not be banking on the re-alignment of the road anytime soon you know what councils are like with funding, unless the diggers are moving in as i speak.


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## puffin (27 Feb 2007)

We just got planning in a rural area. The road has a 80km/h limit and we worked off 120m sightlines. You need to check the Road Geometry Handbook on the NRA website. You will see how different roads have different conditions...junctions, blindspots etc so they have a three tier system allowing some flexibility. It may be advisable to have an engineer submit a report regarding sightlines with next application. Architect would/should know about these guidelines, are you sure that you have 120m each way, remember to measure 3m back from road verge and carry out sightline to 120m either way. Also if you go into neighbours site will need letter from them if hedge needs moving.

Best of luck, don't give up just yet.


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## puffin (27 Feb 2007)

Hey again, just copped that you are in 60 zone on edge of town. You will have to check the county/town plan with regards to developments on outskirts of town. I'm sure your Architect has done this already! Or else ask local councillor what is the story with access off this road. Is it a regional road?


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## HouseHunter (27 Feb 2007)

You need to refer to the NRA's design manual for roads and bridges, under road geometry. They provide the standards for site lines which are applied by all local authorities etc


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## winston smit (2 Mar 2007)

hi all 

Thank you for your replies. 

I have done all that you recommend in my original proposal - engineer's report on the road, road traffic survey(it's not a busy regional road), town plan, and referred to the NRA design guidelines for roads and bridges, which states 90m sightlines for 60kph regional road - on all of these we met the requirements. The re-alignment of the road is part of a major motorway project (the motorway passes under our road, about 3/4 of a mile down the road where a new bridge is being built)and according to their plans it should be completed by 2009; once completed we would have 200m+ sightlines in each direction.

While I understand and accept the safety concerns regarding access to a regional road, the frustrating thing is the access we are looking for is 100 times more safe than the access we currently use, i.e. we are living with widowed father-in-law in house that was built in 1980 and is lucky to have 60m. We are also modifying an existing agrilcutural entrance and are not creating a new access.


Our problem, as far as I can see, is due to our county's new development plan, for 2007-2013, which has just been released in the last two weeks and in it they specify 180m for "average" conditions on a regional road.

I suppose the questions I'm asking are:

Could we argue that being in the 60kph zone is not an "average" condition?
Would An Bord Pleanala overrule a condition that's stated in a county development plan, citing NRA guidelines, other county regulations(if we go 6 miles down the road to our neighbouring county, we would only need 90m), traffic surveys , etc?
are we going to An Bord Pleanala too soon (this is our second application)?

thanks again, 
winston


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## speed (2 Mar 2007)

Have you asked your local councilor if you are eligable to obtain a Section 41? (I think this is what it's called) The Planning Office hate these things?
Rgds
Speed


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## nutty nut (2 Mar 2007)

The vision line required on a regional road is 90 - 120 metres. If you are in a 60kph zone then 90 metres would be the max. There is also the issue of "stopping sight distance" which generally is approx. 50% longer than the vision line. But again as you are in a controlled traffic zone the 90 metres would be ample.

An existing agricultural entrance counts for nothing when looking for permission for a domestic entrance.

I suspect you have been refused for other reasons that you have either not seen or misunderstood. Can you post up the exact reasons stated in the refusal


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## winston smit (2 Mar 2007)

sure - I've just got my hands on the report; here's the reason -
_"having regard to site's location off the Regional route, where sightlines are restricted, it is considered that the proposed development would be injurious to public safety by reason of a traffic hazard and would materially contraven the provisions of the county development plan and would establish an undesirable future precedent"_


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## nutty nut (2 Mar 2007)

It appears to be a simple case of the Council saying you cant achieve the necessary vision/sight lines and you and your architect claiming that you can. 
What I would do if I were you is check the roads engineers reports now that they are in the public domain and note the content and then bring this to your architect's attention.

Unlike planning/design ideas, vision lines are clearly defined and the method of achieving them is clearly defined so someone is wrong in this instance


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## winston smit (5 Mar 2007)

speed said:


> Have you asked your local councilor if you are eligable to obtain a Section 41? (I think this is what it's called) The Planning Office hate these things?
> Rgds
> Speed



Excuse my ignorance but would you mind telling me what a section 41 is?


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## nutty nut (5 Mar 2007)

winston smit said:


> Excuse my ignorance but would you mind telling me what a section 41 is?


Its actually called a Section 140. Its a motion that the councilors can table at a full meeting of the Council. The motion would be to direct the Co. Manager to decide to grant you planning permission regardless of what the planners had recommended. Like most meetings it has to be passed by two thirds of the members and before that two thirds of the Councilors in your Electoral Area must sign it.

Even if it was passed on this basis the decision can still be appealed to An Bord Pleanala.

In any event I cant see your local cllr. agreeing to this.


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## enoughofthis (21 Jun 2008)

A little information is a dangerous thing. 

As for the Section 40 gobbledygook, utter nonsense and alarmist.
Another point that you have all failed to note is that the reason for refusal is actualy that it would, _materially contravene the provisions of the county development plan and would establish an undesirable future precedent_. In other words, the proposal is not permitted in principle, irrespective of the sightlines.

In future, just employ a road engineer to undertake a road safety audit on the proposed entrance. Any competent 'Architect' would never attempt to resolve road engineering issues on your behalf. It does not form part of an architects brief.


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