# Rise of extremist politics



## Purple (20 Jan 2020)

Given that according to the latest opinion poll the far left is now getting over 25% of the vote should we be worried about Ireland following much of Europe into that political landscape?
In some countries it is the far right who are on the rise. In Ireland it is the far left. They are equally dangerous to society.


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## odyssey06 (20 Jan 2020)

Seems like they are already here (SF) and we should be worried.


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## RedOnion (20 Jan 2020)

I often wonder if people who support particular parties (SF in particular) realise just how far left they are?
I think the problem is there's no real alternative to FG / FF that isn't very far left.

Personally, I think the rise of independents is more worrying and damaging long term. At least with a party, whichever side of the spectrum, they can come up with a policy and be elected on that basis, rather than typically 'parish' issues that don't effect the whole economy one way or the other.


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## dereko1969 (20 Jan 2020)

Your definition of "far left" includes who? SF/PBP? Does the latest opinion poll not actually show a decrease in their combined support?
I'd be fairly certain, notwithstanding that poll at the weekend that both those parties/groups will lose seats and return with lower numbers in the next Dáil. 
I would also be certain that the combined number of seats for "soft left" - Social Democrats/Greens/Labour will increase so are we not seeing a move towards the centre?


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## Duke of Marmalade (20 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Given that according to the latest opinion poll the far left is now getting over 25% of the vote should we be worried about Ireland following much of Europe into that political landscape?
> In some countries it is the far right who are on the rise. In Ireland it is the far left. They are equally dangerous to society.


With SF 19% in latest poll, I presume this really means are we concerned with the rise of the SF vote from 6.5% in the 2002 GE.  Answer is Yes and No. Yes for obvious reasons but let me give two reasons for No.

Generally this vote is grounded in the less educated and more ignorant sections of the populace who are vulnerable to having racist and other unsavoury sentiments exploited.  To be fair to Grizzly he more or less suppressed the Holohan wing of the party so that SF is recognisably progressive on social and similar issues.  SF vent their escape valve for ignorant bigotry in being anti-Brit.

But the real reason for "welcoming" SF cornering this rise in the anti establishment feeling is market niche, because of their dubious past the lead centrist parties will not have them in coalition (at least for now).  If SF were a truly constitutional party they would be almost certain to be in power after this GE.  Put another way, these extremist elements of whatever flavour are entering coalitions in other EU countries but for the moment at least the whiff of gunpowder is keeping the reins of power safely out of their grasp.


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## Purple (20 Jan 2020)

dereko1969 said:


> Your definition of "far left" includes who? SF/PBP? Does the latest opinion poll not actually show a decrease in their combined support?


 Solidarity, PBP, the Shinners etc are all in that basket. 

The Shinners are particularly worrying as they are run from the UK by a terrorist organisation.


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## TarfHead (20 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> The Shinners are particularly worrying as they are run from the UK by a terrorist organisation.



The prospect of SF 'researchers' having access to Department of Justice files is appalling.


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## dereko1969 (20 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Solidarity, PBP, the Shinners etc are all in that basket.
> 
> The Shinners are particularly worrying as they are run from the UK by a terrorist organisation.


Where do you see SF and Solidarity/PBP/Rise/People's Front of Judea picking up seats?

Seriously doubt SF will retain the 2 seats in Dublin Mid West they have, they've lost a number of sitting TDs, they're not going to get 2 in Louth or Cavan-Monaghan. They will lose at least 5 seats. Where do you think they'll pick up seats?
The other far-left aren't going to gain seats and will struggle to hold onto what they have. Also Clare Daly and Mick Wallace aren't running so there are another 2 "far left" seats gone.
I seriously think you've got this all wrong based on one probably outlier of an opinion poll that was taken during the RIC controversy.


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## Purple (20 Jan 2020)

TarfHead said:


> The prospect of SF 'researchers' having access to Department of Justice files is appalling.


Absolutely.


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## josh8267 (21 Jan 2020)

Enda  Kenny offered FF 50% of the cabinet seats to go into government last time around , ff should have gone in to power with FG,
I like lots of People  voted first FG and then FF
  Voter first choice was a government FG and FF,
If FG and FF are not willing to come together after the next election ,  there will be a shift of support  to SF ,

FG and FF are dancing to Mary Lou McDonald beat so far in this general election,
She will hammer FF and FG for the rest of this election , 
I don't think support will shift to her during this election but FF and FG will be damaged for the next one, SF as usual are playing a long game,


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## odyssey06 (21 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Enda  Kenny offered FF 50% of the cabinet seats to go into government last time around , ff should have gone in to power with FG,
> I like lots of People  voted first FG and then FF
> Voter first choice was a government FG and FF,
> If FG and FF are not willing to come together after the next election ,  there will be a shift of support  to SF ,



Not sure, I would have thought the most likely scenario for SF to surge is if FF & FG were together in a coalition government, then SF can position themselves as the de facto opposition. 
Instead, even if FF or FG are tarnished by spell in government, the other maintains a sense of distance and can still at election time present themselves as the opposition. Which is what FF are doing now.


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## josh8267 (21 Jan 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> Not sure, I would have thought the most likely scenario for SF to surge is if FF & FG were together in a coalition government, then SF can position themselves as the de facto opposition.
> Instead, even if FF or FG are tarnished by spell in government, the other maintains a sense of distance and can still at election time present themselves as the opposition. Which is what FF are doing now.


As I said may work for FF in this Election, long term not so,

If I vote for FG Or FF which 50% who come out to vote do  to be honest I will finish up with my vote split one in power and one in opposition ,
so the 50% becomes 25% of a government with the rest made up of a rat bag of TDs holding possibly over 50% on cabinet positions,

Even in good times the 50% FG/FF supporters will not be happy with a government like this, a very small change to SF support will bring them higher than the 50% who vote for FG/FF Mary Lou could finish up in the top position sooner than you think,

FF and FG will be attacking each other at General election time lowering both core support base ,The last time I checked it was down from the last election,
I suppose what I am saying Is a vote for FG/FF at best is only half a vote when it comes to power  as most   quarter of a vote,

If FF support goes up a little and FG fall lower than SF by election day I would still expect FG to have away more TDs Than SF but give it another election they could be higher than FG/FF going into next election ,


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## TarfHead (21 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> FG and FF are dancing to Mary Lou McDonald beat so far in this general election,



How so ?

My perception of MLDs performance so far is Paddy Holohan and not being allowed into a debate.  What have I missed  ?


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## josh8267 (21 Jan 2020)

TarfHead said:


> How so ?
> 
> My perception of MLDs performance so far is Paddy Holohan and not being allowed into a debate.  What have I missed  ?


Mary Lou is keeping her eye on the big picture,
You are looking at the little Details Paddy Holohan and such like,


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## Purple (21 Jan 2020)

SF are keeping Mary Lou away from the TV cameras and have been for quite some time. 
It's a pity Labour are so inept and badly led. They should be occupying the left with FG slightly right of centre and FF slightly left of it as was always the case before.


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## WolfeTone (21 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> You are looking at the little Details Paddy Holohan and such like,



Hasn't he been suspended from SF, or subject to disciplinary action?


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## josh8267 (21 Jan 2020)

Purple
You are correct, The problem for FG/FF and Labour is the people Mary Lou is sending out could be mistaken for FG/FF or labour members,

Just seen a clip of Leo down in Fermoy Mart launching FG policies on agriculture , the minister for Agriculture was being hassled by farmers,

Leo made a bee line to shake hands with what looked like a FG supporter you could see supporter did not seam happy to be seen  on clip with Leo,
Strange times for FG,


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## josh8267 (21 Jan 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> Hasn't he been suspended from SF, or subject to disciplinary action?


interesting
 Faster than Leo and Michael,


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## Duke of Marmalade (21 Jan 2020)

That self important nutter FOT in the IT today argues that we are too risk averse, always putting FG or FF in charge.  Yes he conflates portfolio theory with politics and argues that we need to take risks to earn rewards - I kid you not.

He doesn't spell out the risks but I presume he has in mind that we should give SF/IRA a go, heck throw the dice.  Let's ponder the risks they might take.

Poster boy for the New SF, Fierce Doherty is a big fan of burning the bondholders.  Old SF/West Belfast GHQ want to burn the Supreme Court.  And I presume they would all be a fan of _Wolfie's_ panacea of burning the "excess assets" of our 17 billionaires (as well as a super tax on all those folk earning more than a hundred grand).

Are those the sort of risks that FOT has in mind? Hard to see the rewards.


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## josh8267 (21 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> That self important nutter FOT in the IT today argues that we are too risk averse, always putting FG or FF in charge.  Yes he mixes portfolio theory with politics and argues that we need to take risks to earn rewards - I kid you not.
> 
> He doesn't spell out the risks but I presume he has in mind that we should give SF/IRA a go, heck throw the dice.  Let's ponder the risks they might take.
> 
> ...


Must be a major shocked to posters who follow the IT nutters and swallow most of what the write, 
Pierce the TD seams to be well liked up in Dublin by the FF ers FG ers and others TDs  
I think it was the Labour Party who shared power many times in Ireland who failed to put on Pierce green jersey,


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## odyssey06 (21 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> That self important nutter FOT in the IT today argues that we are too risk averse, always putting FG or FF in charge.  Yes he conflates portfolio theory with politics and argues that we need to take risks to earn rewards - I kid you not. He doesn't spell out the risks but I presume he has in mind that we should give SF/IRA a go, heck throw the dice.  Let's ponder the risks they might take.



It is a thought provoking article... I think he has a starting point that we have the most risk averse political system in Europe... multi seat STV constituencies. It encourages the main parties to converge on the centre, even more so than FPTP.
But I certainly wouldn't draw the same conclusion he draws, that would be going from one extreme to another.  
Also, is he really saying he'd vote Renua or some new party of the radical right, or encourage people to look at them?
It is very self-serving that he is known for being on the left and almost all the alternatives are on the left.


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## WolfeTone (21 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Wolfie's_ panacea of burning the "excess assets" of our 17 billionaires



_Jeez, _ I was only contemplating the idea of placing additional tax on 1 person - the wealthiest at that. But that Davos place is real hangout for radicals.
Admittedly I am confused, I thought getting burnt was a central tenet of free-market capitalism? Risk taking and all that? 
But I see now the wealth of the wealthiest is at once an illusion and simultaneously too-big-to-fail.


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## josh8267 (21 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> That self important nutter FOT in the IT today argues that we are too risk averse, always putting FG or FF in charge.  Yes he conflates portfolio theory with politics and argues that we need to take risks to earn rewards - I kid you not.
> 
> He doesn't spell out the risks but I presume he has in mind that we should give SF/IRA a go, heck throw the dice.  Let's ponder the risks they might take.
> 
> ...


R Doherty is costing you more ,
The people on more than a hundred grand are going to be burned when the time comes to honour all the expectations and promises made to every vested interest group who knocked on leo and his rag bag Cabinet door,
Look at the overruns on Broadband/new Hospital/none actions on Insurance and such like, these are the extremist type policies high earners will be paying not the rantings of people before profit,

Purple must be very pleased with the minister yesterday telling workers to go join a union,

i don't think it will be possible to row back on any of the expectations and promises made which can only mean taking more money out of High earners pay packets ,
FG already told high earners to vote for FG and FG would do away with the USC see how that worked

The rise of extremist politics is not the problem Ireland faces it is the large increase in taxation on high earners because of the rag bag cabinet the so called none extreme parties ,

Not to mention the high earners who cannot see they are being fooled around with,


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## Delboy (21 Jan 2020)

Fintan and his comrades in the Irish media are major contributors to the risk adverse political landscape that we have here. That he can write an article on the subject in such lofty prose is beyond comical


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## cremeegg (21 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> a very small change to SF support will bring them higher than the 50% who vote for FG/FF


Numbers are obviously not your thing. 
A doubling in SF support would still leave them well behind the current joint FF FG support


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## cremeegg (21 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> I suppose what I am saying Is a vote for FG/FF at best is only half a vote when it comes to power  as most   quarter of a vote,



I know, fractions are hard too.


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## cremeegg (21 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> He doesn't spell out the risks but I presume he has in mind that we should give SF/IRA a go, heck throw the dice.



I really don’t think Fintan is advocating a vote for Sinn Fein


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## josh8267 (22 Jan 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Numbers are obviously not your thing.
> A doubling in SF support would still leave them well behind the current joint FF FG support


Cremeegg
Read my post again  you will see I said Enda offered FF half of the Cabinet seats to form the last government,and Michael turned it down,

I have heard both Leo and Michael on Air  turning down the Idea of both forming a government together  after the General Election,

A vote for FG/FF in this General Election Will count for a little over half a vote for one party and less than half for the other party,
It will only take a few % points and SF will pass out the lowest polling party once polls show  this happens that party with the lower % points are in real trouble

SF over night becomes the real functioning Oppisition party,

WE will have a repeat of what happened to the labour party in the Republic and the SDLP in NI once  SF passed them out,
Same thing happened to the UUP in NI once the DUP passed them out
By the way this is the first Election in a while I havent seen a prediction from you
looking foward to cremeegg  calling the 2020 election results,
Cheers


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## Duke of Marmalade (22 Jan 2020)

cremeegg said:


> I really don’t think Fintan is advocating a vote for Sinn Fein


You think he meant Boyd Barrett?  I suppose if Risk gets rewarded why stop at dice, why not Russian Roulette?


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## Purple (22 Jan 2020)

WolfeTone said:


> Hasn't he been suspended from SF, or subject to disciplinary action?


Yes, after he spoke out against those under aged girls taking advantage of middle aged men by having sex with them.
SF were fine with a limp apology after he said that he didn't want a darkie queer (I'm paraphrasing) running the country.


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## Leper (22 Jan 2020)

We live in a democracy (well most of us believe we do). We have all kinds of people going forward for election. Each has his/her own agenda. Ireland has been ruled by minorities for years while political parties ignore the majority. Not everybody wants to vote FF or FG or Lab for their own reasons. SF offers an alternative for the protest voters. Each constituency is different and each protest voter (i.e. those guys who will vote rather than not vote) will probably spend more time studying  the field of contestants than the party faithfuls.  Let's face it, SF are not going to be a partner in government in the short term but they offer a choice to the likes of me who has no intention following the unthinking hordes.


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## Sunny (22 Jan 2020)

Couple of things about the SF vote.
- It has not yet materialised at the election box. People get asked a question in polls. Easy to say someone else because nobody is happy with FF/FG but asking someone to actually follow through is different. 
- Pearse Doherty is carrying SF on his back. Don't agree with everything he says but he is an impressive politician. Mary Lou doesn't have the same respect and is keeping a much lower profile. She is a lot less impressive. This argument about the RTE debate actually helps SF because they will do better being banned from it. 
- Crime is becoming a big election issue. Why on earth have FF and FG not hammered SF on crime? I presume it is just a matter of time. This is the area where SF lose the moral high ground every single time. Question is if FF and FG are capable enough to put the boot in.
- Will SF be able take the vote from other left politicians like people before profit and social democrats. I am not sure at a local level.


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## TarfHead (22 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Mary Lou is keeping her eye on the big picture



So Mary Lou is playing chess while the rest are playing checkers ? Is this what 'Spike' Murray and Martin Lynch are counselling ?


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## Purple (22 Jan 2020)

Leper said:


> SF are not going to be a partner in government in the short term but they offer a choice to the likes of me who has no intention following the unthinking hordes.


SF voters are, by their nature, unthinking. That is unless they support a UK based terrorist organisation with a political front in this country.


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## odyssey06 (22 Jan 2020)

Sunny said:


> Pearse Doherty is carrying SF on his back. Don't agree with everything he says but he is an impressive politician. Mary Lou doesn't have the same respect and is keeping a much lower profile. She is a lot less impressive. This argument about the RTE debate actually helps SF because they will do better being banned from it.



It's rather telling that Mary Lou is running in a constituency that went from a 3 seater to a 4 seater *AND* one of the sitting TDs (Maureen O'Sullivan) retired - yet she doesn't have a running mate.


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## joe sod (22 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Generally this vote is grounded in the less educated and more ignorant sections of the populace who are vulnerable to having racist and other unsavoury sentiments exploited. To be fair to Grizzly he more or less suppressed the Holohan wing of the party



The problem for sinn fein is that there are other parties that are open in discussing those topics, they might not win any seats but they will take votes away from sinn fein. It is also the case that people that have those opinions will tell polsters that they are voting sinn fein but will actually vote for those other candidates. It is always the case that the polls always flatter sinn fein they never get close to that in an election. There are people that will tell polsters they are voting sinn fein but then vote fianna fail, that certainly happened in the last election.


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## dereko1969 (22 Jan 2020)

I don't think SF will get anywhere near 20% on polling day, however I do think they are becoming less transfer averse than previously. At the start of this campaign I saw them losing about 5-7 seats, I'm going to have to revise that now.


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## josh8267 (22 Jan 2020)

TarfHead said:


> So Mary Lou is playing chess while the rest are playing checkers ? Is this what 'Spike' Murray and Martin Lynch are counselling ?


FF are not attacking SF they hope they opinion polls before election day will show SF higher than FG if this happens most FG  center ground supporters  will vote  FF
Over the last number of years we have all kinds of weddings,
Lets have the civil war wedding that has being put off for a long number of years

After all FG and FF moved in together after the last General Election we know they are Compatible having lived almost five year together,


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## TarfHead (22 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Lets have the civil war wedding



Can people be more influenced by what happened 100 years ago, than 10 years ago ?

Only in Ireland


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## Purple (22 Jan 2020)

TarfHead said:


> Can people be more influenced by what happened 100 years ago, than 10 years ago ?
> 
> Only in Ireland


I'm influenced by what happened in the last 10 years and the last 40 years and what's happening now. For any one of those reasons and for all of those reasons I will never vote for the political front of the Provisional IRA, which is run by the IRA's army council.

I'll vote for FF or FG, depending on their economic policies at the time.


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## josh8267 (22 Jan 2020)

[QUOTE="Purple, post: 1642092, member: 114"
It's a pity Labour are so inept and badly led. They should be occupying the left with FG slightly right of centre and FF slightly left of it as was always the case before.
[/QUOTE]
Labour just after making a statement to the press with there new red line word for word below
Landlords would be prevented from seeking a Month's rent as a deposit when new tenants move in under plans being proposed by the Labour Party,
Is this the kind of parties you admire ,


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## Purple (22 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Labour just after making a statement to the press with there new red line word for word below
> Landlords would be prevented from seeking a Month's rent as a deposit when new tenants move in under plans being proposed by the Labour Party,
> Is this the kind of parties you admire ,


I don't admire them but they don't murder children.


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## josh8267 (22 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> I don't admire them but they don't murder children.


Well we have something in common,
Having lost a child to cancer  at the hight of the troubles up North after a  ten years battle losing limb after limb ,
I used to get very angry hearing about the loss of  limbs not to mention the needless loss of life for nothing,

The political parties down South  have a lot to answer to the people on Northern Ireland And UK for the needless loss of life

lots of these bombings would never have happened if the people who carried them out did not have a safe  BOMBERS HEAVEN COURTESY OF THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND  I will let you figure out who was in charge down hear just to help out it was not SF,

You said you were going back 40 years It was only after the needless loss of life in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings in May 1974 a very small step was taken down south,

Sorry about the rant I hold very strong feelings on the Issue , I don't like getting lectures from supporters of parties who could have done more to save limbs and life in NI and UK and indeed in the south,

All the Political Parties Down South Could have done a lot more when it came to NI,


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## Purple (22 Jan 2020)

I completely agree Josh. FF were trying to hold onto the republican vote and so did far less than they could or should have done.


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## josh8267 (22 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> I completely agree Josh. FF were trying to hold onto the republican vote and so did far less than they could or should have done.


Thanks purple
I am angry with all the political parties down south,
Your not exactly correct Jack Lynch and Liam Cosgrave  pushing hard to make changes they were held back by the TDs in both parties when it came to NI
When FG came to power 1973 there leader had the same problems as FF getting all of there TDs to back there leader when it came to NI,
There was good and bad eggs in both Parties when it came to NI,
It is the reason I hope to see the day both will work together and form a government I vote for both but as I said half of my vote Will not count seeing the don't go into government together,
I remember Aldert Reynolds the FF leader saying who is afraid of peace?
I remember John Brution of FG saying I am sick of answering questions about the Fuci?? Peace Process Which he later Apologised for, but it sent out a message of how some leaders/parties  viewed NI down south,


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## Purple (22 Jan 2020)

I think SF's border poll will lose much of whatever support it has as the economic reality of taking on NI is presented to people. 
NI is a failed economic entity (as CJH said) with a lower income per head than Wales, Scotland or the North of England but has a higher standard of living than any of them because of the transfer it gets. As a friend from West Belfast calls it "The Peace Bribe".


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## Duke of Marmalade (22 Jan 2020)

In danger of going badly off topic but to me the one whose hands are most steeped in NI and other blood is CJH.  But I do think Michael Martin is a decent skin, pity he has guys like O’Cuiv in his team.


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## cremeegg (22 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> In danger of going badly off topic but to me the one whose hands are most steeped in NI and other blood is CJH.  But I do think Michael Martin is a decent skin, pity he has guys like O’Cuiv in his team.


Oh dear what have you got against poor Eamo. 

Not the sharpest tool in the box but a decent man and a hardworking public representative


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## Leper (23 Jan 2020)

What happened in Northern Ireland was caused by people in Northern Ireland. Yes, there were people from the Republic got involved later. Back in the 1960's it was a tinder box waiting for a spark. The Civil Rights marches were achieving little or nothing. Please don't lay blame on politicians in the Republic. The vast majority of what happened in the North was caused years beforehand north of the border.


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Jan 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Oh dear what have you got against poor Eamo.
> 
> Not the sharpest tool in the box but a decent man and a hardworking public representative


Looked up Wiki, you have him spot on.  Interesting he supported rejoining the Commonwealth.  Just shows, I shouldn’t judge a guy by his jeans.


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## john luc (23 Jan 2020)

The Labour party is a joke now. Instead of having new candidates they have failed yesterday candidates running. Emmet Stagg and Joe Costello both are 75 years old and obviously control their local Labour party as personal fiefdoms with no new candidates to be allowed to develop


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## josh8267 (23 Jan 2020)

john luc said:


> The Labour party is a joke now. Instead of having new candidates they have failed yesterday candidates running. Emmet Stagg and Joe Costello both are 75 years old and obviously control their local Labour party as personal fiefdoms with no new candidates to be allowed to develop


The Labour party and there first class supporters leeched as much money as the possibly could from Workers in the private sector,  until There support fell to around 6%
I hope there support will be lower after the next election,
Not a peep out of Joan Burtan about the pension fiasco She was in that department until the  Labour Party was removed from power ,

Joan Burtan seen/took around 20% of of private sector payroll in PRSI A1, SHE had no problem taking part in the unfair treatment of private sector workers,
If you have a brain in your head never ever vote for the most two faced party since the foundation of this State,



The labour party and there Unions Supporters leeched as much as the possibly can off the private sector Workers and given as little as possible  back,

If Pensions were touched in the public sector Labour  and the Unions would be shouting from the roof tops,

Just so I make Myself clear I hate Public sector Bashing ,You will travel a long way before you will find a Public servant/Civil servant who agrees With the disgraceful action By the labour Party against one section of the workforce,

Just pointing out IF you are in the private sector there is no point in Voting Labour and if you voted for labour in the past you were voted to be a Second Class supporter,


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## odyssey06 (23 Jan 2020)

john luc said:


> The Labour party is a joke now. Instead of having new candidates they have failed yesterday candidates running. Emmet Stagg and Joe Costello both are 75 years old and obviously control their local Labour party as personal fiefdoms with no new candidates to be allowed to develop



The Social Democrats seem to be running 'new' Labour candidates, if you know what I mean.


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## Purple (24 Jan 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> The Social Democrats seem to be running 'new' Labour candidates, if you know what I mean.


Yep, Spring chickens like Róisín Shortall, a baby at 66 years old.


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## Purple (24 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Just so I make Myself clear I hate Public sector Bashing ,You will travel a long way before you will find a Public servant/Civil servant who agrees With the disgraceful action By the labour Party against one section of the workforce,


Most people think  they are entitled to what they get. If I was a public servant I'd be voting for Labour with second preference for FF as Labour is a creature of the Public Sector Unions and FF have populism in their blood. I wouldn't vote for SF, even though they will throw money at the Public  Sector, as they have blood on their hands.


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## odyssey06 (24 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Yep, Spring chickens like Róisín Shortall, a baby at 66 years old.



I more had in mind Cian O'Callaghan, Garry Gannon etc, will be interesting to see if they make a breakthrough. 
Especially if Gary Gannon got in ahead of Joe Costello.


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## Leper (24 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Most people think  they are entitled to what they get. If I was a public servant I'd be voting for Labour with second preference for FF as Labour is a creature of the Public Sector Unions and FF have populism in their blood. I wouldn't vote for SF, even though they will throw money at the Public  Sector, as they have blood on their hands.





Purple said:


> Most people think  they are entitled to what they get. If I was a public servant I'd be voting for Labour with second preference for FF as Labour is a creature of the Public Sector Unions and FF have populism in their blood. I wouldn't vote for SF, even though they will throw money at the Public  Sector, as they have blood on their hands.


1. Labour a creature of the Public Sector:- True up to 20 years ago. Since then the Labour Party is receiving less and less monetary contributions from the trade unions. Even when I left the workforce 2 years ago the unions contribution to Labour was pretty low.

2. If there is one political party that has most influence in the staff of Public/Civil Service it's Fianna Fáil. I can say this having worked most of my life in the civil/public service where every FF hack was visible and spent more time at the village pump than the Healy-Raes.

3. SF has blood on it hands:- I don't care what it has on its hands as long as if they take part in government  (i) They run the economy of Rep of Ireland Ltd fairly and squarely. (ii) The housing crisis is tackled properly (iii) Crime controlled and I don't care how they do it (iv) Make Homelessness history (v) Hand back contributions of USC (Universal Social Charge) to us from where it was stolen some years ago to alleviate the recession problems. (vi) Tackle the crazy retirement issues that have popped up relatively recently. (vii) Introduce a fair 3rd Level Grant System.(viii) Spread what wealth is there and not confine it to Dublin.


----------



## Leo (24 Jan 2020)

Leper said:


> (iii) Crime controlled and I don't care how they do it



Sinn Fein's history would suggest they may seek to control crime much like a dictator does. Drug dealing, murder, extortion, ATM theft, fuel laundering, etc., are all bad unless of course carried out by their own supporters in which case it is to be encouraged. 



Leper said:


> (iv) Make Homelessness history



That's like expecting a government to deliver world peace.



Leper said:


> (v) Hand back contributions of USC (Universal Social Charge) to us from where it was stolen some years ago to alleviate the recession problems.



Again, Sinn Fein's history in the councils they've controlled in the north suggest they raise such taxes, not reduce them.


----------



## Purple (24 Jan 2020)

Leper said:


> 1. Labour a creature of the Public Sector:- True up to 20 years ago. Since then the Labour Party is receiving less and less monetary contributions from the trade unions. Even when I left the workforce 2 years ago the unions contribution to Labour was pretty low.
> 
> 2. If there is one political party that has most influence in the staff of Public/Civil Service it's Fianna Fáil. I can say this having worked most of my life in the civil/public service where every FF hack was visible and spent more time at the village pump than the Healy-Raes.
> 
> 3. SF has blood on it hands:- I don't care what it has on its hands as long as if they take part in government  (i) They run the economy of Rep of Ireland Ltd fairly and squarely. (ii) The housing crisis is tackled properly (iii) Crime controlled and I don't care how they do it (iv) Make Homelessness history (v) Hand back contributions of USC (Universal Social Charge) to us from where it was stolen some years ago to alleviate the recession problems. (vi) Tackle the crazy retirement issues that have popped up relatively recently. (vii) Introduce a fair 3rd Level Grant System.(viii) Spread what wealth is there and not confine it to Dublin.


The Shinners have put the capital A into auction politics.
The will, according to the populist lies they are spouting;

Take everyone on under €30,000 a year out of the USC net.
Abolish property tax
employ an extra 1000 gardai
end homelessness (The Labour Party say that will cost €15 billion and they are the only party with a costed plan)
Open up all the primary care health centres and fill all open positions in the HSE (1500 jobs to staff the primary care centres and god only knows how many are vacant in the HSE). In order to fill those positions they will have to give across the board pay increases. That alone will cost upwards of a billion a year, every year.
Reduce the retirement age back to 65, aslo costing billions (as if we haven't screwed over our children and grandchildren enough already.
Their commitments are utterly impossible to meet and anyone voting for them on the basis of what they are saying they will do is both delusional and an idiot.
If FF and FG keep arguing like teenage girls for the rest of the election campaign they will continue to give the Shinners aa free ride. That would be an appalling disservice to the people of Ireland as it would let the political front of a UK based terrorist organisation become king makers in our parliament.


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## josh8267 (24 Jan 2020)

Laper
All public sector workers since 1995 and private sector workers 2 million of them now were the only people caught for a USC type untill the TROIKA put an end to it and made everyone pay there fair share,
IF you Google
PRSI RATES 2009
SW 14 should come up when you open it go down to PRSI A1 for 2009 it was 9% Employee,10.75% Employer total from payroll 19.75% up to 75K per year
Google
PRSI RATES 2010 you will still see it is 19.75% of payroll
Google
PRSI RATES 2011 You Will see it now is 14.75 % Employee 4% employers 10.75%     (USC for the Golden Circle Came In)
You must be a Public service  D stamp who never seen an USC type payment until the TROIKA sorted it out,

Next time you meet your post 1995 PRSI A I comrades or FF HACK tell then you thought you should be getting USC back now  looks like you Leper are part of the golden circle When The  the rest of us , (some are still confused by the look of things

The likes of Poor Purple and Myself  We are regarded as second class supporters who have to give our masters over 19.75% of payroll and work a few extra years longer if we loose our job we get less per week than we payed in payroll prsi  so leper can stay part of the FF/FG/LAB  Golden Circle,

Good for you once FF/FG/LAB can convince josh8267 and purple  types into thinking they are a first class no 1 voter you will be ok,


----------



## Purple (24 Jan 2020)

The Shinners are going to appoint an extra 1000 Gardai but 5 of those 1000 will be to replace Jerry McCabe, Frank Hand, Gary Sheehan, Seamus Quaid, Samuel Donegan, all murdered by SF/IRA and the other 5 gardai who were killed by other Republican terrorists. It's some turn around from considering them as legitimate targets to wanting to be their employer.


----------



## Purple (24 Jan 2020)

The Shinners also proposed;

Abolish the Insurance Levy (cost to the State €230 million)
Introduction of the living wage across the Public Sector
The abolition of all 3rd level fees.
A 2/3 state subsidy of childcare costs and a pay increase for all people employed in childcare.
Everyone to get tow GP visits a year, paid for by them through their taxes. 

All that and a cut in taxes all except "the rich".
Interestingly the value of your pension pot is now removed from the calculation of their wealth tax.


----------



## Leper (24 Jan 2020)

1. "Poor" Purple?????? - Do you want me to start a collection? 
2. Me a part of the FF/FG/Lab Golden Circle - No Chance! Of that, there's no doubt.

I think you got all that wrong Josh.

If there are twelve candidates on my voting paper, I'll start at number 12 and work my way to Number 1.  I have no problem knowing who'll be first past the post and second and third. The fourth is a bit of a gamble.  But, it's the sequence of eliminations puzzles me most. You see, I'm trying to squeeze most value from my Proportional Representation -Single Transfer Vote. You can take it that nobody from FF/FG/Lab/SF will be in my 1,2,3,4 selections. My future vote must be earned. I'm giving nobody an easy passage.


----------



## josh8267 (24 Jan 2020)

1. "Poor" Purple?????? - Do you want me to start a collection?
2. Me a part of the FF/FG/Lab Golden Circle - No Chance! Of that, there's no doubt.

I seen what you posting over on Paddy powers I also seen you'r posted about  how Good MRS is With Money on another post
Looks like Mrs and Mrs Will be giving FG there no 1 Vote to save there 20 Euro Bet,

I think you got all that wrong Josh.

Of course I do ,It's the possibility of having a Dream come true that makes life Interesting for Leper,

I don't think we will have a collection  just good advice

To the ones who still believe FF/FG/LAB Golden Circle, are looking out for you in the private sector ,Chase them, chase them until you're out of breath then keep running,[/QUOTE]


----------



## josh8267 (24 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> The Shinners also proposed;
> 
> Abolish the Insurance Levy (cost to the State €230 million)
> Introduction of the living wage across the Public Sector
> ...


I cant find the press release where did you come across the above
The look more like what FF/FG/ LAB would  propose at this stage to be honest,


----------



## ATC110 (24 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> In some countries it is the far right who are on the rise. In Ireland it is the far left. They are equally dangerous to society.


Some countries? All of Europe has swung to the Right apart from Ireland and Greece. Sinn Fein are a fascist party (IRA) masquerading as quasi-left for cynical vote harvesting purposes


----------



## josh8267 (24 Jan 2020)

ATC110 said:


> Some countries? All of Europe has swung to the Right apart from Ireland and Greece. Sinn Fein are a fascist party (IRA) masquerading as quasi-left for cynical vote harvesting purposes


Reckless policies by centre left or center right which is what we are seeing in Ireland over the last four to five years will have to be sorted by an extreme political party when the money runs out in Ireland,
The TROIKA Will not be nice when they come back and see FG rolled back the reforms put in place once they left,

The present Irish Government is being Roller over Left Right and center by vested Interest  Groups ,
This will all have to be paid back out of High Earners tax  and from the holders of Wealth that cannot be moved When the policies of FF?FG/LAB go belly up,


----------



## Leper (24 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> I seen what you posting over on Paddy powers I also seen you'r posted about  how Good MRS is With Money on another post
> Looks like Mrs and Mrs Will be giving FG there no 1 Vote to save there 20 Euro Bet,



Hi Josh, You got that one wrong too. Neither of us will be voting FG as Number 1. I don't leave my brains rule my heart when it comes to a little flutter. It's the value; it's the money - nothing else. 9/2 on a sitting senator who had been a TD (Jerry Buttimer), who has worked his butt off at the parish pump. He has two sets of posters one wearing a beard the other no beard. He gets my friendly tenner flutter this week.

For the record I am a keen supporter of the Rep of Ireland in football and Ireland in rugby. But, if I think whoever they are playing are a better bet. I bet on the opposition. Like I said "It's the money." Incidentally, betting against the Rep of Ireland and Ireland pays better dividends than backing them for a win. [Even Purple can see that].


----------



## cremeegg (25 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> By the way this is the first Election in a while I havent seen a prediction from you
> looking foward to cremeegg  calling the 2020 election results,
> Cheers



Well now I do like a challenge , so at a global level I think that FF are doing well in the campaign. Michéal Martin's refusal to go into coalition with FG was a wise move tactically. I have come to believe that campaigns are all about the strapline "Yes We Can" "Make America Great Again" and the best of all "Get Brexit Done"

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the public.

The strapline for this election is "time for a change" or better yet "get them out", while MM and Irish politics isn't quite that crude (yet) that is the underlying point and MM took the open goal he was presented.

As a second point it's depressing to see the Irish Times banging the drum for the Greens, again. At the Euro elections they were at it even after the polls closed. The greens no doubt have a positive image and a bit of momentum behind them, but they have only a few candidates with the profile to capitalise on that.

Ivan yates was first out of the traps with a bold prediction of 60 seats for FF, and while that seems high, things are moving in that direction.

So here is my call for what it is worth, out going seat numbers in brackets.

FF 58 (46)
FG 43 (47)
SF 20 (22)
Green 10 (3)
Lab 7 (7)
SD 2 (2)
Others 20 (31)


----------



## josh8267 (26 Jan 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Well now I do like a challenge , so at a global level I think that FF are doing well in the campaign. Michéal Martin's refusal to go into coalition with FG was a wise move tactically. I have come to believe that campaigns are all about the strapline "Yes We Can" "Make America Great Again" and the best of all "Get Brexit Done"
> 
> No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the public.
> 
> ...


You have FF are on the high side I would say 55 tops
FG about right I would say 42 seats on the nose
SF on low side I would say 28  expect FG  Die in the wool supporters to vote SF to keep FF down Sf could go over 30 seats from FG transfers,
FG/SF could finish up with over 70 seats between them , Even purple can see SF  are not seen as an extreme party any more,
Greens on high side I would say 5 or 6 at most ,seen as more extreme than SF
LAB on high side I would say around 5
SD on low side I would say around 6


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## Purple (27 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Even purple can see SF are not seen as an extreme party any more,


You're joking, right?
I'd vote for paul Murphy before I'd vote for that blood soaked quasi-marxist detritus.


----------



## josh8267 (27 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> You're joking, right?
> I'd vote for paul Murphy before I'd vote for that blood soaked quasi-marxist detritus.


Of course you would vote for Paul  Murphy ,lots of people who hold views like yourself are Paul Murphys  they never took a good look at themselves to notice,


----------



## Purple (27 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Of course you would vote for Paul  Murphy ,lots of people who hold views like yourself are Paul Murphys  they never took a good look at themselves to notice,


I don't understand your post.

I dislike Paul Murphy and everything he represents, his Trotskyite values are a threat to democracy and are an attack on natural justice. I'd have him in power any day of the week ahead of the fascist political front of a bunch of child killers.


----------



## TarfHead (27 Jan 2020)

I heard a brief section of MLMD being interviewed on RTE Radio yesterday.  The interviewer (David McCullagh ?) called out an allegation that a SF Stormont Minister said he could not make a decision about 'Cash for Ash' without running it past 3 named advisors.  MLMD waved it away saying all Ministers have advisors.  The interviewer let it slide.

2 comments;
Advisors advise, Ministers decide.  For a Minister to decline to decide indicates they are not up to the job, or that SF are 'different'.
One of the named advisors has quite a chequered history.  And not from being a political advisor.  Again, SF are 'different'.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (27 Jan 2020)

But what is more shocking is that even if the three mentioned were just advisors, that's not the main problem.  These advisors (or bosses, doesn't matter) were (are?) leading members of the Provisional IRA.


----------



## TarfHead (27 Jan 2020)

Some time after MLMD & MON took 'control' of Sinn Fein, there was a photo published on Twitter by Carál NíChuilín of the two women seated at a table with piles of documents.  In the background were two men whose histories are known.

The photo could have been taken from another angle, or staged differently to feature just the new leadership.

The message was clear.  There may be new faces in leadership positions but people in the background "haven't gone away, you know".


----------



## blueband (27 Jan 2020)

the real danger for this country is if the greens get into power...…..they will destroy everything in no time at all..


----------



## Purple (27 Jan 2020)

blueband said:


> the real danger for this country is if the greens get into power...…..they will destroy everything in no time at all..


How so? They were quite moderate the last time they were in power and they have murdered any children.


----------



## blueband (27 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> How so? They were quite moderate the last time they were in power and they have murdered any children.


have a listen at what they propose doing this time if they get into power and you might change your mind. i would the shinners in every time over the greens.


----------



## odyssey06 (27 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> How so? They were quite moderate the last time they were in power and they have murdered any children.



Arguably their pro-diesel stance when last in government has cost more lives than anything SF-IRA have done recently... not deliberate so that's more reckless endangerment maybe...


----------



## Purple (27 Jan 2020)

blueband said:


> have a listen at what they propose doing this time if they get into power and you might change your mind. i would the shinners in every time over the greens.


What, specifically, are you concerned about in their proposals?

I don't think we should ban oil and gas exploration and I don't think reducing the pupil-teacher ratio is a good use of public money as it is probably the most expensive thing you can do in education and has been shown to have limited positive outcomes but other than that I'm in favour of 8 of the 10 headline points in their manifesto. 
Paying farmers to protect the environment rather than our current policy of paying them to wreck it is, in my mind, a good idea. More public transport is a good idea. More renewable energy production is a good idea, although ignoring Nuclear is stupid and just bad science. 
Details here.
Of course they will only ever be a minority party in government so any crazy stull, and probably most of the good stuff, will be ignored.


----------



## dereko1969 (27 Jan 2020)

blueband said:


> the real danger for this country is if the greens get into power...…..they will destroy everything in no time at all..





blueband said:


> have a listen at what they propose doing this time if they get into power and you might change your mind. i would the shinners in every time over the greens.





odyssey06 said:


> Arguably their pro-diesel stance when last in government has cost more lives than anything SF-IRA have done recently... not deliberate so that's more reckless endangerment maybe...


As purple says, be specific, otherwise it's just a pointless post.
In fairness to the Greens, was the prevailing information (which we now know to have been deliberately falsified) at the time not that Diesel was less polluting than petrol?
I won't be giving Eamon Ryan a #1 in my constituency as he's home and hosed I would think but he'll be getting a #3. His position on Metro really annoyed me, agreeing with the opposition to continuing Metro to Sandyford was illogical and suggesting it instead move towards Rathfarnham and Tallaght was just delaying the issue for a decade.


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## odyssey06 (27 Jan 2020)

dereko1969 said:


> In fairness to the Greens, was the prevailing information (which we now know to have been deliberately falsified) at the time not that Diesel was less polluting than petrol?



It was known to be less polluting in terms of carbon dioxide emissions. It was known its non carbon emissions were more dangerous to humans.


----------



## cremeegg (27 Jan 2020)

I don't generally engage with the closed minded anti Sinn Fein rhetoric around here, but I read Una Mullally just now and i just wanted to share.









						Una Mullally: Those attacking Sinn Féin have become cheerleaders in reverse
					

Irish young people are politicised not by old-fashioned tribalism but along issues




					www.irishtimes.com
				




For what its worth I think Una Mulally is an airhead, but if the above article shows what way the airheads are thinking, SF may be on the rise. The airhead vote is as good as any other.


----------



## josh8267 (27 Jan 2020)

To be honest It is the air heads in Sf who so far have not spotted the own goals FF/FG/LAB have left themselves open to, the pension fiasco is only a teddys bears compaired to the things they have not spotted,


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (27 Jan 2020)

Boyd Barret won that debate


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## josh8267 (27 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Boyd Barret won that debate


No 2 FG
no 3SF


----------



## cremeegg (28 Jan 2020)

Boyd Barrett got the crowd going.

I was impressed by Eamon Ryan, even though I usually find him condescending.

The crowd seemed up for any indignant lefty point. They were supposed to have been selected to be representative of the electorate. I doubt that.

Leo seemed low energy. Mary Lou had a good night. I think Micheál Martin probably did himself the most good.


----------



## josh8267 (28 Jan 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Boyd Barrett got the crowd going.
> 
> I was impressed by Eamon Ryan, even though I usually find him condescending.
> 
> ...


Michael was very very lucky if Mary Lou was a bit faster she would have buried him She had the Knock out punch when he said the pension age was 65 down hear it is 66 ,the game for FF was over if she was fast enough to pick up on what he actually said,


----------



## odyssey06 (28 Jan 2020)

_Sinn Féin TDs have "zero" influence over policy decisions despite being elected to the Dáil, according to a former party member. 
Aontú party leader Peadar Tóibín, who resigned from Sinn Féin over his views on abortion, said key policy decisions are made by a "very tight circle" of six or seven people and are then "handed down" to TDs.
_


----------



## Leper (28 Jan 2020)

The audience was selected independently of RTE and any political party. Boyd Barrett won the night hands down. Mary Lou ran in second, Leo probably gained ground while Michéal lost some. Brendan Howlin chipped away at the rock with a tooth-pick. Eamonn Ryan knew he was onto rising support and just ensured he didn't score any home goals. The rest were also rans and might as well have stayed at home.

The problem for Mary Lou is transferring her debating superiority into number one votes and transfers. Boyd Barrett is safe and said all the things to prick peoples ears even those not in his constituency. Michéal Martin did not perform well overall and suddenly Fianna Fáil looks vulnerable probably at the gain of Fine Gael. 

The applause during the debate was favourable to Boyd Barrett and even somewhat for Mary Lou. The applause at the end was fairly sterile for everybody except Boyd Barrett and Mary Lou. But if I were Leo Varadkar or Michéal Martin I'd have the grassroots banging on doors faster than they have been. The intelligent voter hasn't gone away, you know!


----------



## dereko1969 (28 Jan 2020)

RBB did his usual soundbite thing, plays well in a debate a bit like his friend Trump. No own goals like a Garda Station for everyone in the audience like the last time. Not enough alphabet spaghetti candidates in the country for it to make much difference though.
Mary Lou was similar, incredibly light on detail but people inclined to vote for her party aren't into detail.
I thought the "Green" question was a disgrace and the fact there wasn't a specific question about Health given how highly it scores in opinion polls was very odd.
Varadkar did better, fair play for saying he wouldn't reopen Garda stations. Micheal Martin didn't do as well I thought. Eamon Ryan did well when he popped in, possibly wiser not to jump in all the time. Howlin seemed a little irrelevant and being stuck on the edge didn't help. Shortall should have jumped in more, I felt but did well when she did speak.


----------



## Ceist Beag (28 Jan 2020)

The next Taoiseach should offer RBB the housing ministerial position just to give them a stick to beat him with when he turns it down! In fairness to him he's an effective speaker but God forbid that he would ever have to try and put into practice any of what he preaches.


----------



## josh8267 (28 Jan 2020)

Ceist Beag said:


> The next Taoiseach should offer RBB the housing ministerial position just to give them a stick to beat him with when he turns it down! In fairness to him he's an effective speaker but God forbid that he would ever have to try and put into practice any of what he preaches.


I would not vote for RBB
The above is a silly statement to make,  sure he would take it provided he Taoiseach let him put some of what he preaches into practice,


----------



## Conan (28 Jan 2020)

Typical RBB getting cheap applause accusing the FF Government of "bailing out the Banks". The reality is that it was Bank depositors who were bailed out, but those applauding RBB missed that. Imagine if the Banks were not "bailed out" and depositors were thus "bailed-in" (as in Cyprus). The demonstrations would have dwarfed the Water Charges protests. But RBB favours cheap populist rhetoric.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (28 Jan 2020)

Official Result from the _Indo_:
MM 7
MLMcD 6
Leo 5
BH,  RBB 4
ER 3
RS 2


----------



## josh8267 (28 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Official Result from the _Indo_:
> MM 7
> MLMcD 6
> Leo 5
> ...


Michael did not win the long game up to 8 february poll and beyond
I agree the pension age should be brought back to 66, where it was before it got changed,
You went on the transition pension between 65 and 66 so the effective pension age if you were working was 66 for a long Number of years back
Michael and all the main parties were saying we could not afford to lower the state retirement pension because the state could not afford to do so ;

FF/FG Must be after finding a Magic money tree to be in a position to lower  state pension age one year below NI and UK,

People are not fools the people who moved to SF are not moving back seeing moving is having the correct affect from there point of view on FF/FG I would say Michael will cause more to move to SF before 8 February,
SF did not put up enough  Candidates to take advantage of FF/FG dancing to SF tune,


----------



## Delboy (28 Jan 2020)

Looks to me that SF have found that same magic money tree based on their manifesto launch today!


----------



## Purple (29 Jan 2020)

Delboy said:


> Looks to me that SF have found that same magic money tree based on their manifesto launch today!


They'll have to rob a Northern Bank a day to pay for all they are promising!


----------



## Leper (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> They'll have to rob a Northern Bank a day to pay for all they are promising!



I wonder when will the banks stop robbing us?


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

Leper said:


> I think an election manifesto or two were issued late or are about to be issued. I have no doubt the newspapers will print easy to read tables with summaries shortly.





Purple said:


> They'll have to rob a Northern Bank a day to pay for all they are promising!


You are so Wrong ,
The Purples of this world Don't Know they are the real Magic Money Tree please Keep it up,
FF/FG/LAB Have a magic Money Tree,The just Rob  95% of there own supporters to look after the other 5% by the way I and you are not part of the 5% 
99.9% of the people knocking on Doors for FF/FG/LAB up until election Day will be robbed without Known By people the knew and support,
I know I am not Part of the 5% The expected me to work an extra year to the could leave loopholes they Built into the system for

Purple You are in middle age and a Supporter of Parties who are already telling you have to work until you are 68 I am sure when you come closer to the pension at  68 they will have to push it out again like they did with me,


----------



## dereko1969 (29 Jan 2020)

Josh, any chance you could start using punctuation? I'm really struggling to figure out what exactly you're saying on here.


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

dereko1969 said:


> Josh, any chance you could start using punctuation? I'm really struggling to figure out what exactly you're saying on here.


I take your point ,Just google Pensions 370000 and you will get my drift,


GOOGLE 
Pensions 370000,


----------



## TarfHead (29 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Or the could start close loopholes  like foregoing tax on the likes of this,
> Google pensions 370000



Can you explain what point you trying to make ?  A Pension payment is subject to tax.  A Pension contribution can lower your tax bill.


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

On the leaders' debate
The one leader who stood out if you took the time to listen and did not get  bored with his rambling style was Eamon Ryan
Leaving Green issues to one side go back an listen to what he had to say on most other Issues ,
Not great at getting his point across, What he said on pensions in time will come to pass,


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

TarfHead said:


> Can you explain what point you trying to make ?  A Pension payment is subject to tax.  A Pension contribution can lower your tax bill.


and so said all of us who know no better,


----------



## Firefly (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> They'll have to rob a Northern Bank a day to pay for all they are promising!



Maybe they just speculated on Bitcoin?


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> They'll have to rob a Northern Bank a day to pay for all they are promising!





Leper said:


> I wonder when will the banks stop robbinFirefly, post: 1643329, member: 10514"]
> Maybe they just speculated on Bitcoin?


Maybe they will do what the existing main parties do and Brainwash the people into thinking they Don't do extremist type policies, ,
Just add SF to the list of parties who rob you the same as FF/FG/LAB,[/QUOTE]


----------



## TarfHead (29 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> and so said all of us who know no better,


So you .. can't (?) .. explain your point ?


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

Of course I can ,
Just think about it for a little longer ,
A hint
There must be a legal loophole tax wise why some was paid out that way , 
Loopholes only for the few Means extra taxes for the many,


----------



## Purple (29 Jan 2020)

Leper said:


> I wonder when will the banks stop robbing us?


Is that you Richard?


----------



## Purple (29 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Of course I can ,
> Just think about it for a little longer ,
> A hint
> There must be a legal loophole tax wise why some was paid out that way ,
> Loopholes only for the few Means extra taxes for the many,


Okay, so you can't explain you post.


----------



## Sunny (29 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Of course I can ,
> Just think about it for a little longer ,
> A hint
> There must be a legal loophole tax wise why some was paid out that way ,
> Loopholes only for the few Means extra taxes for the many,



No offence but if you have a point to make, then make it. No amount of emojis will make me spend time trying to figure out what you are saying....


----------



## Leper (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Is that you Richard?



No! - Just a cynical leper who years ago got fed up with the banks robbing honest people.


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

Leper said:


> No! - Just a cynical leper who years ago got fed up with the banks robbing honest people.


You can see from above There are a lot of very honest people around  keeping an eye on Richard while his work Colleagues get there friends to rob them,

Just to be clear I am  not talking about Work Time Theft in case anyone gets there wires crossed,


----------



## Purple (29 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> You can see from above There are a lot of very honest people around  keeping an eye on Richard while his work Colleagues get there friends to rob them,
> 
> Just to be clear I am  not talking about Work Time Theft in case anyone gets there wires crossed,


Richard Boyd Barrett... Lep got it


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Richard Boyd Barrett... Lep got it


The pennies are falling slowly this weather,
Of course I got it
I am on about Richard Boyd Barrett work Colleagues also known as FF/FG/LAB  and other TDs,


----------



## Purple (29 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> The pennies are falling slowly this weather,
> Of course I got it
> I am on about Richard Boyd Barrett work Colleagues also known as FF/FG/LAB  and other TDs,


Of course you are.


----------



## Purple (29 Jan 2020)

Leper said:


> No! - Just a cynical leper who years ago got fed up with the banks robbing honest people.


How are the banks robbing people?


----------



## Sunny (29 Jan 2020)

I am completely lost here...….


----------



## Purple (29 Jan 2020)

Sunny said:


> I am completely lost here...….


I genuinely have no idea what josh8267 is talking about. It sounds a bit like those people who go on about the illuminati or the lizard people or the international jewish conspiracy. Too much time watching nutters on YouTube.


----------



## Leper (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> How are the banks robbing people?



Now Mr Purpletrator you're once again on the ran-tan. How are the banks robbing people?
1. During my mortgage period (20 years) with AIB Home Loans the mortgage rate rose to 19.75%, I kid you not. I remember when the rate was reduced to 15% I felt quite relieved. If the mortgage rate was at even 15% today there'd be a revolution probably led by many on this forum.

2. On another thread currently alive on this forum, the founder (yep Mr Burgess himself) is asking for the interest rate of mortgages to be made an election issue. The interest rate is a lot lower now than it ever was during my 20 year stint with AIB Home Loans.

3. Some illegal moneylenders don't charge as much as 19.75%; I know many charge more. In my book there ain't too much difference between the banks and illegal moneylenders. When the banks get robbed, do you think I care a whit? They've been robbing me for years.


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Of course you are.


Just to get back To the Subject of  your first post,
I fear Reckless policies from the likes of FF/FG/LAB will bring this Country to its knees again,
When the TROIKA arrived in Ireland in Dec 2010 with 86bn to bail us out from FF/FG/LAB reckless policies over many years ,
The fairest government in my lifetime was the Unelected TROIKA,
The only thing that will turn people in the direction of Extreme policies is reckless promises made by the main  parties ,
Having watched the leaders debate
FF are reckless
FG are reckless
Lab are reckless
SF are reckless
Greens I got the feeling I could trust them even though there is lots I don't agree with them on,
PBP or whatever they were called now extreme policies no vote from me only reason the exist is because FF/FG/LAB and FG in Government no change
Social Democrats suspect they are not reckless I would trust them as the official left opposition party ,


----------



## Purple (29 Jan 2020)

Leper said:


> 1. During my mortgage period (20 years) with AIB Home Loans the mortgage rate rose to 19.75%, I kid you not. I remember when the rate was reduced to 15% I felt quite relieved. If the mortgage rate was at even 15% today there'd be a revolution probably led by many on this forum.


Was that back in the 80's when inflation was running at over 20% and the real cost of your mortgage was going down at historic rates?



Leper said:


> 2. On another thread currently alive on this forum, the founder (yep Mr Burgess himself) is asking for the interest rate of mortgages to be made an election issue. The interest rate is a lot lower now than it ever was during my 20 year stint with AIB Home Loans.


 I haven't read that thread but I'm sure you are aware that the fact that it is virtually impossible to repossess a house is a large part of the reason interest rates are higher than the EU average. Are you advocating a higher rate of repossessions in order to reduce interest rates? If so I agree.


Leper said:


> 3. Some illegal moneylenders don't charge as much as 19.75%; I know many charge more. In my book there ain't too much difference between the banks and illegal moneylenders. When the banks get robbed, do you think I care a whit? They've been robbing me for years.


No they haven't. That's just hyperbole.


----------



## Sophrosyne (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Was that back in the 80's when inflation was running at over 20% and the real cost of your mortgage was going down at historic rates?



That's an exaggeration.

The only year that inflation exceeded 20% was 1981, when it was 20.34%.


InflationAverage Mortgage Interest Rates198018.13%14.15%198120.34%16.25%198217.30%16.25%198310.48%13.00%198408.69%11.75%198505.40%13.00%198603.84%12.50%198703.16%12.50%198802.13%09.25%198904.09%​11.40%​


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> I genuinely have no idea what josh8267 is talking about. It sounds a bit like those people who go on about the illuminati or the lizard people or the international jewish conspiracy. Too much time watching nutters on YouTube.


I am not going to even open the your link, ,I worked in costings before I retired , I suspect there is big cost saving to be had by restricting access to the nutters watchers on YouTube in a lot of places,
So you think highlighting the 86bn bailout including the rainy day fund was all a dream,
There is another nightmare building up from the extreme policies of FF/FG/LAB/SF;

Extreme politics are you  trusting the wrong people,
I bet in a few months you will be on about why the top 20% pay most income taxes in Ireland,

Well enjoy paying more income tax because a lot of the people backing you up will have a loophole ,
If you want to know why the top 20% pay most income tax in IRELAND google
PENSION 370000 and enjoy your tax break,

By the way FF/FG/LAB have restricted access to the Dairymaster , 
You know about the FG supporter who walked up to the FG leader with jug of milk and says I milked your cow  FG leader say we dont have any cows we only keep bulls,


----------



## Sunny (29 Jan 2020)

Seriously, I cant read your posts. Can you just take a breath and post coherent sentences. Like what the hell is the dairy master and why have they blocked it? I feel like this is all one big P$%% take...


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

Sunny said:


> Seriously, I cant read your posts. Can you just take a breath and post coherent sentences. Like what the hell is the dairy master and why have they blocked it? I feel like this is all one big P$%% take...


very good
There is a message there, All those positive words they speak to supporters are only truthful when there actions in the past back them up
Trust me the are like the man milking the bull they are only taking the PI$$,


----------



## Leper (29 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Was that back in the 80's when inflation was running at over 20% and the real cost of your mortgage was going down at historic rates?
> 
> (a) The mortgage was taken out in 1980 for 20 years. The interest rates charged mainly by the banks and building societies were crippling. You could plan nothing fearing at any time the interest rate could increase several times even in a short period. In work you got your yearly increment which was eaten up easily by the financial institutions on their solo runs just increasing rates. Nobody could say boo.
> 
> ...


----------



## Leper (29 Jan 2020)

Hi Purple and anybody else looking in

(a) The mortgage was taken out in 1980 for 20 years. The interest rates charged mainly by the banks and building societies were crippling. You could plan nothing fearing at any time the interest rate could increase several times even in a short period. In work you got your yearly increment which was eaten up easily by the financial institutions on their solo runs just increasing rates. Nobody could say boo to the banks. They had carte blanche to do whatever they wished.

(b) Even before the mortgage was "made available" to you, you paid up to one year's interest on a bridging loan. The reality of this is that effectively your mortgage was extended by up to one year while the bank dilly dallied with the delay in providing the mortgage. It was in their own interest to delay your start to paying the mortgage. On the bridging loan you paid zero off the mortgage during that year.

(d) If these were not ploys to rob the mortgagee, I don't know what is. Incidentally, the last recession was a doddle to the like of me because of the way the banks behaved. And whatever way you look at it, the banks took the best years of my life while we paid that mortgage. For that I will never forgive them.

(e) Virtually Impossible to Repossess a House:- Newsflash Purple, Tell that to people who had their mortgages sold to Vulture Funds.

(f) "That's just Hyperbole":- Try and convince the lucky ones (i.e. those who came out the right end of the mortgages robbery with their full health).

(g) I still have correspondence with the bank over my situation. Their replies to the questions I raised and even my begging for an extension to the repayment period were nothing short of unchristian. I could say more, but before my emotions take off, I'll try to remain calm.

. . . . and if a bank gets robbed, I'm supposed to feel sorry for them. Pass the bucket, please.


----------



## Sunny (29 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> very good
> There is a message there, All those positive words they speak to supporters are only truthful when there actions in the past back them up
> Trust me the are like the man milking the bull they are only taking the PI$$,



Sorry I still have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe just me so will leave to others....


----------



## josh8267 (29 Jan 2020)

Leper said:


> Hi Purple and anybody else looking in
> 
> (a) The mortgage was taken out in 1980 for 20 years. The interest rates charged mainly by the banks and building societies were crippling. You could plan nothing fearing at any time the interest rate could increase several times even in a short period. In work you got your yearly increment which was eaten up easily by the financial institutions on their solo runs just increasing rates. Nobody could say boo to the banks. They had carte blanche to do whatever they wished.
> 
> ...


I was in the same boat as you, I suspect others will need that expression explained to them also,

There are lots of middle aged smug people posting who haven't a clue sad to say
Those who fail to learn from they mistakes of there predecessors are destined  to repeat them,
Whats worse there Predecessors are still alive ,
This tread is about Extreme Politics There is an extreme dangerous Right wing undercurrent  bubbling under the surface that will take us under if left unchecked,


----------



## cremeegg (29 Jan 2020)

It's Life Josh, but not as we know it.


----------



## Purple (30 Jan 2020)

Sunny said:


> Sorry I still have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe just me so will leave to others....


No, it's not just you. You must be as stupid as me...


----------



## Firefly (30 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> FF are reckless
> FG are reckless
> Lab are reckless
> SF are reckless
> ...



Sounds like you need to start your own party fella.


----------



## Purple (30 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> I suspect you know I am retired , life is good cremeegg  seen purple posting  resented his own mother driving his father in to have coffee in town and worried about extreme Politics ,
> My generation seen what FF/FG/LAB got up to when there was no other choice ,
> There spots haven't changed you know just look at the way purple Generaton  are Brainwashed into working until 68,
> Our Generation are made out of better stuff no soft belly hear, We have them on the run the Gray vote have copped on to  FF/FG/LAB know it,
> ...


Paying your pension and the pension of other retirees is the biggest problem the State faces in the future.
Leper may think that freely entering into an agreement with a bank is them robbing him but it is pensioners who are now robbing the best years of those now entering adulthood  by sucking up so much of the State's money. Now the greedy selfish generation who caused the last recession won't even work for an extra year!


----------



## Purple (30 Jan 2020)

Firefly said:


> Sounds like you need to start your own party fella.


Maybe he could just start the Irish branch of this one.


----------



## Leper (30 Jan 2020)

Now guys, we are all entitled to our opinions. We may differ on any subject, but if we change the rules for even one we are doing a disservice to the forum.


----------



## Sophrosyne (30 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Now the greedy selfish generation who caused the last recession won't even work for an extra year!



Are you including your own generation in this?


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (30 Jan 2020)

Sophrosyne said:


> That's an exaggeration.
> 
> The only year that inflation exceeded 20% was 1981, when it was 20.34%.
> 
> ...


That's a fascinating table.  To complete the picture we would need deposit rates and the official bank rate. And I think there was mortgage interest tax relief.
Very surprised that _Leper _was ever paying over 19% to AIB, given the above table.  
The later '80s do smack of lack of competition.
That was certainly reversed in the early 2000's with banks, domestic and foreign, falling over themselves to attract mortgages, sometimes as low as 0.25% over their own cost of funds.  And we all know how that ended up.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (30 Jan 2020)

Sunny said:


> Sorry I still have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe just me so will leave to others....


_Sunny _I gave _josh _the benefit of the doubt that he was using a sort of Joycean style.  Unfortunately James always went over my head.


----------



## Purple (30 Jan 2020)

Sophrosyne said:


> Are you including your own generation in this?


Yes, of course.


----------



## Purple (30 Jan 2020)

Sophrosyne said:


> That's an exaggeration.
> 
> The only year that inflation exceeded 20% was 1981, when it was 20.34%.
> 
> ...


This graph shows inflation at 23% in the early 80's


----------



## Firefly (30 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> Maybe he could just start the Irish branch of this one.



_Policies and electoral strategy_
_Other suggestions so far unadopted included minting a 99p coin and forbidding greyhound racing in order to "stop the country going to the dogs"_


_Membership_
_It currently costs £12.00 per year for membership, which includes a party rosette, a certificate of insanity, a 'Loony Badge,' your personal party I.D card, and a letter from the party's current leader; Alan ‘Howlin Laud’ Hope.[23] It is also noted that a £14.50 membership is available for those overseas.
_
Honestly, for 20 quid I'd be tempted myself for the craic!


----------



## odyssey06 (30 Jan 2020)

Firefly said:


> _Policies and electoral strategy_
> _Other suggestions so far unadopted included minting a 99p coin and forbidding greyhound racing in order to "stop the country going to the dogs"_



Needs to think bigger... this country has already gone to the dogs!


----------



## Sophrosyne (30 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> This graph shows inflation at 23% in the early 80's



The statistics in the table in my previous post displays the average inflation rates and average mortgage rates for a year in accordance with the CSO.

At a point in time during 1981 inflation may have reached 23%, as Lep's mortgage may have been 19%.

However, since Lep's entire mortgage was not paid off at a point in time when inflation was at its highest, the rates for other years in the 80s matter in your original contention.


----------



## Purple (30 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Ahh Firfly Appears as Purples Shadow hear from time to time No matter how Swift is he will not outstrip his shadow smarter man by far,
> 
> I don't think firfly would resent seen his mother leaving his father to station to go into town to have coffee with his retired friends,
> 
> ...


Yea, no idea what that's about either.


----------



## Purple (30 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> How would you bet firefly knows ,Did you ever hear the saying Rob Peter to pay Paul
> you are peter,


It's like overhearing parts of a conversation...


----------



## Ceist Beag (30 Jan 2020)

It's like standing at a bar at 11:30pm while two beside you are having an animated conversation - well one of them is, the other is looking towards the exit or trying to catch your eye to help him out of there!


----------



## Firefly (30 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> Ahh Firfly Appears as Purples Shadow hear from time to time No matter how Swift is he will not outstrip his shadow smarter man by far,
> 
> I don't think firfly would resent seen his mother leaving his father to station to go into town to have coffee with his retired friends,
> 
> ...



ThisIsMe


----------



## Purple (30 Jan 2020)

josh8267 said:


> The young working people most middle age people are happy to see the older generation enjoying there retirement


Sure they are.


josh8267 said:


> and understand they paid high taxes to make Ireland a better place for then to live in,


Oh, so it was the young working people, then in primary school, who ran the government, ran the banks, ran the departments and ran the construction companies in the years leading up to the boom? I did not know that. I was under the impression that those people are now in their 60's, 70's and 80's.
It must have been those same children who turned a blind eye to all that child abuse, the disgusting treatment of unmarried women who were pregnant, LGBT people and other minorities.

You are retired. You are part of the most incompetent, corrupt, morally bankrupt and selfish generation this country has ever produced. I'm in my 40's. My generation is better, mainly because they travelled more and so shed some of our bigotry, but the generation now in their 20's and 30's (the people paying your pension but who won't have one of their own) are far better again.
As a generation you should be ashamed of yourselves but instead when you bankrupted the country  you guaranteed your own deposits, bailed out your own pension funds and didn't take a cent of a cut in your pensions. Given your track record that didn't come as a surprise. You even protested when the medical car was taken from pensioners earning over €1300 a week (though you still got health insurance which is massively subsidised by younger people). Just have the good grace to be contrite.  That would be a nice start.


----------



## Sophrosyne (30 Jan 2020)

Purple said:


> You are part of the most incompetent, corrupt, morally bankrupt and selfish generation this country has ever produced.




Corruption, indifference, bigotry, greed, incompetence, ignorance or their opposites are characteristics that are not exclusive to one generation.

To repeatedly suggest that they are is a failure to understand the human condition.

It is not everyone in a generation that has the moral courage or enlightenment to advance their generation. It is usually a handful and the rest, including the next generation, benefit.

Each generation strives for better and that’s how it should be.

This generation has challenges. Will it handle those challenges better than previous generations handled theirs? Who knows?


----------



## cremeegg (30 Jan 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Sunny _I gave _josh _the benefit of the doubt that he was using a sort of Joycean style.  Unfortunately James always went over my head.







cremeegg said:


> It's Life Josh, but not as we know it.



Was this too subtle for you.


----------



## Purple (31 Jan 2020)

Sophrosyne said:


> Corruption, indifference, bigotry, greed, incompetence, ignorance or their opposites are characteristics that are not exclusive to one generation.
> 
> To repeatedly suggest that they are is a failure to understand the human condition.
> 
> ...


My problem is with the sense of entitlement of pensioners and their utter lack of insight into how they have screwed up the lives of their grandchildren. They should be apologetic, not entitled. They certainly have no business criticising that generation for anything.


----------



## Sophrosyne (31 Jan 2020)

Yes, but _every_ pensioner is not responsible for events that took place during their working life no more than you are individually responsible for those that take place during yours.

I don’t feel responsible or the need to be apologetic for the unfortunate actions of specific individuals or specific groups of individuals nor would I take gratuitous credit for putting a man on the moon or inventing the internet.

You are promoting a singular and rather unwise view of collective responsibility while repudiating individual accountability.


----------



## Purple (1 Feb 2020)

Sophrosyne said:


> Yes, but _every_ pensioner is not responsible for events that took place during their working life no more than you are individually responsible for those that take place during yours.
> 
> I don’t feel responsible or the need to be apologetic for the unfortunate actions of specific individuals or specific groups of individuals nor would I take gratuitous credit for putting a man on the moon or inventing the internet.
> 
> You are promoting a singular and rather unwise view of collective responsibility while repudiating individual accountability.


I am responding to the trope that "Pensioners, they worked hard all their lives, they built the country". Collectively that just isn't the case. There has never been a better time to be a pensioner and there will never be a better time to be a pensioner. 

We joined the EU and they gave us a shed load of money and in the last 20 years or so we stopped turning a blind eye to child rape, gross misogyny, endemic corruption and terrorism. 

I'm very lucky in life. I know that the ability to acquire capital assets from earned income will be much harder for my children. I know that because their future was mortgaged to pay the pensions and protect the assets of those who are currently retired they will have to work longer with less security and pay more for their housing than I did. I have a problem with that. I think it is unjust.


----------



## Leper (1 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> I am responding to the trope that "Pensioners, they worked hard all their lives, they built the country". Collectively that just isn't the case. There has never been a better time to be a pensioner and there will never be a better time to be a pensioner.
> 
> We joined the EU and they gave us a shed load of money and in the last 20 years or so we stopped turning a blind eye to child rape, gross misogyny, endemic corruption and terrorism.
> 
> I'm very lucky in life. I know that the ability to acquire capital assets from earned income will be much harder for my children. I know that because their future was mortgaged to pay the pensions and protect the assets of those who are currently retired they will have to work longer with less security and pay more for their housing than I did. I have a problem with that. I think it is unjust.



To the likes of me on pension, the golden age started for people born after circa 1980. Their parents (like our parents) were caught up in recession after recession, rampant inflation, unbelieveable high interest rates. Recession was the norm. You can laugh at this, but we had no year out in Australia or anything like it. We had the cattle boat to England if we couldn't find work. That's what many of us did as there was nothing else available unless you were a silver-spooner like many around these days.

Get one thing straight - I am not the conscience of the state. I earned my pension and so did most others. Things came tougher for us. We were not the cause of our economy being screwed up. Therefore, many of us treated our children with kid gloves ensuring they got nearly everything they wanted and had not to do what we did. They got university education and almost a free ride into relatively good employment in Ireland. And now they want to make us the conscience of the state?


----------



## Purple (1 Feb 2020)

Leper said:


> To the likes of me on pension, the golden age started for people born after circa 1980. Their parents (like our parents) were caught up in recession after recession, rampant inflation, unbelieveable high interest rates. Recession was the norm. You can laugh at this, but we had no year out in Australia or anything like it. We had the cattle boat to England if we couldn't find work. That's what many of us did as there was nothing else available unless you were a silver-spooner like many around these days.
> 
> Get one thing straight - I am not the conscience of the state. I earned my pension and so did most others. Things came tougher for us. We were not the cause of our economy being screwed up. Therefore, many of us treated our children with kid gloves ensuring they got nearly everything they wanted and had not to do what we did. They got university education and almost a free ride into relatively good employment in Ireland. And now they want to make us the conscience of the state?


Most people earn what they have.
Most people work hard.
I was born well before 1980. I started working summers, easter, Christmas etc when I was 14. I started working full time at 17. I worked 7 days a week, 70-80 hours a week in a factory machining metal. It wasn't that hard and I was well paid for it. We can all put a hardship spin on most things (like the "cattle boat" to england like you were being shipped to Auschwitz) but both you and I started work with the realistic expectation that we could buy a home. I bought my first home when I was 23. It was an apartment in Dublin in a great location. I bought it because I read that with EMU interest rates would drop significantly so it was obvious that prices would go up. I got in ahead of the property boom. I was lucky to enter the market when interest rates were high and so asset costs were depressed. You were even luckier to get in when interest rates were even higher and prices depressed even more. 

You didn't get a year out in Australia but you are getting a retirement in Spain and wherever else you feel like going. You may have contributed to a pension all your life but if it is a State pension then you certainly didn't come anywhere close to paying for it. The parents who funded the three months in Australia or the USA? Their kids are now paying for their retirement, and will be paying for it long after those parents are dead, so it turns out it was a good investment.  

That free ride into relatively good employment in Ireland, that doesn't include the ability to buy a home and probably won't include a State pension. Maybe it's not as good as you think.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (1 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> I'm very lucky in life. I know that the ability to acquire capital assets from earned income will be much harder for my children. I know that because their future was mortgaged to pay the pensions and protect the assets of those who are currently retired they will have to work longer with less security and pay more for their housing than I did. I have a problem with that. I think it is unjust.


_Purple_, when I think of the two earls I share your sentiment that they will not have it as good as my generation on the housing and pensions front. 

However, I do not accept that this is because I was morally corrupt and greedy, without denying that I might indeed possess those personal qualities.  Nor has it anything to do with the "crash" (the crash actually helped housing affordability for a while and still is dong so with ridiculously low interest rates).

The housing "crisis" is a problem of success.  Our population is much higher than it was in the '80s and we have full employment with better paid jobs.  The IMF rates us 5th (World Bank 4th) in the World in terms of GDP per capita*, only behind such beauts as Brunei and Qatar.  Housing supply in Dublin in particular did not keep pace with this surge on the demand side.  Should I apologise for Ireland rising from being the poorest in the EU to being 5th in the World?

On pensions the main concern is increased longevity.  Brought about by medical advances and public health initiatives (like anti smoking measures).  Should I apologise for increased longevity?

_* possibly leprechaun statistics_


----------



## Purple (1 Feb 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Should I apologise for Ireland rising from being the poorest in the EU to being 5th in the World?


 Absolutely not but you, and me, should accept that circumstances have given us a big advantage in that we owned capital assets while they inflated greatly in real terms relative to the value of earned income and look to our government to act to level the playing field for those now starting out in life. That means that the richest demographic in the country, retired people, should not keep sucking up the future of those who are coming behind us.


Duke of Marmalade said:


> On pensions the main concern is increased longevity. Brought about by medical advances and public health initiatives (like anti smoking measures). Should I apologise for increased longevity?


 Again, absolutely not but you should acknowledge that those without the savings or capital or state funded incomes are paying for your State pension and not whinge about being asked to retire at 67 or 68. And say thank you to those young people for subsidising your lifestyle the odd time.


----------



## Sophrosyne (1 Feb 2020)

At the time, crippling taxation and mortgage interest rates applied to _every_ taxpayer and _every_ mortgage holder as did inflationary prices, regardless of their moral makeup.

Morality or lack of it is an intergenerational constant.

The former was a generational variable, which thankfully does not apply today.

Ask yourself what if it did.


----------



## Leper (2 Feb 2020)

Purple said:


> We can all put a hardship spin on most things (like the "cattle boat" to england like you were being shipped to Auschwitz) but both you and I started work with the realistic expectation that we could buy a home.
> 
> You didn't get a year out in Australia but you are getting a retirement in Spain and wherever else you feel like going. You may have contributed to a pension all your life but if it is a State pension then you certainly didn't come anywhere close to paying for it. The parents who funded the three months in Australia or the USA? Their kids are now paying for their retirement, and will be paying for it long after those parents are dead, so it turns out it was a good investment.
> 
> That free ride into relatively good employment in Ireland, that doesn't include the ability to buy a home and probably won't include a State pension. Maybe it's not as good as you think.



I took the above from a longer post by Purple.

1.(a)  I presume you never boarded a train to catch the "cattle" boat in Rosslare in the 1960's. Both were an experience. Neither was the experience of 1st Class on a UAE Airbus. I'd love to see a modern day teenager being able to time-travel back and experience travel from Ireland to the UK which is nothing like travel today.

(b) You eventually arrived in the UK and travelled  onto your destination. Mostly the Irish arrived in London, hoped to find accommodation after spending some time with relations. If you hadn't a drink problem before you left Ireland the chances were you'd have drink problems in the UK. Believe me the publicity pertaining to No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish was true.

(c) Many Irish worked on the "lump" system. You got paid on completion of the job which usually ran into weeks. There was a good chance that you'd  would be ripped off too and got much less than you thought you would. It wasn't only the dishonest Brits that ripped us off, it was dishonest Irish.

You're right, we weren't headed to Auschwitz, I never said we were. But, I would advise that if you ever thank God or whoever or whatever you believe  in be grateful that you were on none of those cattle trains or cattle boats many of us endured before we arrived where we were largely not wanted.

2. We spend several months per year in Spain. We bought our own apartment there. We are entitled to travel there as much as we wish. We worked for what we bought and paid honest earned money. We rent it out (and before you ask, we are 100% tax complicit). You might remember for years the government advertised that the pension funds would come under pressure eventually and to make plans for a good retirement, Ours was to buy in Spain. I stated on another thread on this forum the folly of our investment - it did not work out, unfortunately. But, I didn't go cap-in-hand to anybody asking for a bail-out. We took it on the chin. And if we feel like spending a few week in Spain next month,, we bloody well will.

3. A good investment paying for our kids to spend a year out in Australia - No bloody way; it fostered silver-spooning into their future. (My opinion, and I'm sticking by it).


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## WolfeTone (2 Feb 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Nor has it anything to do with the "crash" (the crash actually helped housing affordability for a while and still is dong so with ridiculously low interest rates).



I would recommend David McWilliams latest podcast "The Giant Global Housing Swindle". 
Rather than the crash making housing more affordable, it just saddled a generation with life-long debt. The only beneficiaries were those who were already out of reach of unsustainable debt and were able to buy more property at low prices, resulting in greater centralisation of wealth. 
The pension debate wont be resolved by politicians dictating what age a person should, could or will have to retire. It will be resolved by necessity. The necessity of large swathes of working people having to work into their 70's to pay off the crippling debt. 
It remains to be seen if the generation entering the workforce today will continue to tolerate this bankrupt and bogus ideology of 'trickle-down free-market' economics.


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## cremeegg (2 Feb 2020)

Leper said:


> 1.(a)  I presume you never boarded a train to catch the "cattle" boat in Rosslare in the 1960's. Both were an experience. Neither was the experience of 1st Class on a UAE Airbus. I'd love to see a modern day teenager being able to time-travel back and experience travel from Ireland to the UK which is nothing like travel today.
> 
> (b) You eventually arrived in the UK and travelled  onto your destination. Mostly the Irish arrived in London, hoped to find accommodation after spending some time with relations. If you hadn't a drink problem before you left Ireland the chances were you'd have drink problems in the UK. Believe me the publicity pertaining to No Dogs, No Blacks, No Irish was true.
> 
> (c) Many Irish worked on the "lump" system. You got paid on completion of the job which usually ran into weeks. There was a good chance that you'd  would be ripped off too and got much less than you thought you would. It wasn't only the dishonest Brits that ripped us off, it was dishonest Irish.



Young people in the 1960s struggled to overcome the obstacles in their way and took the opportunities that were offered to them. Young people today face their own obstacles and opportunities.

Todays youth would probably find the issues of the 1960s more challenging than you did, because they were not reared in that time.

I have no doubt that a person who was young in the 1960s would be very challenged by the world of todays young.

To my mind the biggest shift is that education is now more widely available, and that is a challenge for individuals as well as an opportunity.


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## Leper (2 Feb 2020)

cremeegg said:


> Young people in the 1960s struggled to overcome the obstacles in their way and took the opportunities that were offered to them. Young people today face their own obstacles and opportunities.
> 
> Todays youth would probably find the issues of the 1960s more challenging than you did, because they were not reared in that time.
> 
> ...



I'm fully acquainted with what you are trying to say. But, I can inform anybody looking in the youth of today would have capitulated when faced with a fraction of the problems of the 1960's.

As for education today I reckon it is wasted on most.;


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## Sophrosyne (2 Feb 2020)

Leper said:


> I'm fully acquainted with what you are trying to say. But, I can inform anybody looking in the youth of today would have capitulated when faced with a fraction of the problems of the 1960's.
> 
> As for education today I reckon it is wasted on most.;



I disagree.

I think you and also Purple are underestimating the next generation.

I don't think they will waste their working lives feeling hard done by or that their lives have been "screwed up".

The ability to overcome adversity is perennial.

Like previous generations, they will find ways. A lot of the career paths they will follow probably cannot be imagined right now.

It is not or should not be about which generation is morally better or more hardworking , that is Purple's slant.

It's about exchequer in/exchequer out.

It is a fact that current pensioners contributed more to the exchequer for most of their working lives than the current workforce, not because they wanted to but because they had no choice.

Regarding the post title, I don't see any party as being particularly extremist.

At all events, whatever party(parties) form a government they will have to comply with the rules of the Stability and Growth Pact.


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## Duke of Marmalade (4 Feb 2020)

cremeegg said:


> I really don’t think Fintan is advocating a vote for Sinn Fein


FOT sorta makes himself clear today.  He wants SF in Government but wouldn't himself vote for them because of their past and because they are controlled by leading IRA figures.


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## TarfHead (4 Feb 2020)

Copy/paste from www.irishtimes.com.

"_This is not an invitation to amnesia. All the victims of violence during the Troubles have a right to justice. All the perpetrators must be held to account. The blood on Sinn Féin’s hands cannot be washed away without a much more honest and less hypocritical acceptance of responsibility for its part in a moral and political disaster._"

"_But there is also an equal and opposite threat to democracy. If about 20 per cent of voters choose Sinn Féin, there is a real problem in telling them that their votes cannot count in the formation of a government. The Irish political system has evolved into one in which the election merely determines who has a seat at the bargaining table. Excluding Sinn Féin didn’t really matter when the party was effectively excluding itself in advance – its voters knew what they were getting. But this has now changed – people vote for Sinn Féin in the expectation that their vote counts as much as everyone else’s. To tell them otherwise is not just disrespectful – it is dangerous._"


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