# Have to change roof - planning?



## CBGB (27 Oct 2010)

Hi 

I started to convert my garage with a flat roof into a living space. it is connected to our semi D house. I was told that if i didnt change the house then I didnt need planning. When we started into the job it turns out the flat roof is completelt rotten through. So have to do somethin with it. The idea of building as is seems like a waste of money as I dont like/thrust flat roofs so am thinking of going for a pitched roof. But now this brings it the realms of planning permission! As I have started the job can I go for normal planning or do I have to go for retention planning as the job has started?

Cheers for any advice!


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## CBGB (27 Oct 2010)

Sorry, I meant "if i didnt change the roof I didnt need planning"


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## RKQ (27 Oct 2010)

I assume the garage is on the front elevation as it is attached to the side of your Semi D. IMO any change to the front elevation requires full planning permission.

Changing from a flat roof to a pitched roof requires planning permission. (There are exemptions - overall roof height of 3m for flat roof or 4m for pitched roof but these exemptions have strict conditions. I am assuming your existing garage is over the floor area restriction. )

As you have started work, you can apply for Retention, the L.A will be €102 as opposed to €34 for permission. If a neighbour objects in writting during the construction then the Local Authority are obligated to investigate and stop all work on site if required. In this case, You risk being stopped by L.A prior to installing a water tight roof! (Worst case scenario)


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## empor2010 (28 Oct 2010)

hi cbgb
i was a roofer with over 16 years experience in flat roofing. 99% of people dont like flat roofs for the reason of leaks, this is down to the materials used and the cowboys using them. my avise to you is to reinstall all new timber for flat roof apply a vapour barrier then insulation 150mm (kingspan or similar) then cover with a pvc membrane and use a known company. using PVC membrane ders no maintence


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## onq (30 Oct 2010)

CBGB said:


> Hi
> 
> I started to convert my garage with a flat roof into a living space. it is connected to our semi D house. I was told that if i didnt change the house then I didnt need planning. When we started into the job it turns out the flat roof is completelt rotten through. So have to do somethin with it. The idea of building as is seems like a waste of money as I dont like/thrust flat roofs so am thinking of going for a pitched roof. But now this brings it the realms of planning permission! As I have started the job can I go for normal planning or do I have to go for retention planning as the job has started?
> 
> Cheers for any advice!



Hi CBGB,

Typo noted and I advise accordingly below.

Firstly, you could escape all this red tape if you simply renewed the flat roof and installed is to compliant standard, perhaps with a fibreglass finish.
This could be considered exempted development and fall under Section 4(1)(h) of the Planning Act.

Secondly f you intend to persist with the pitched roof you will need to either take it down and seek permission or complete it and seek retention.
Permission cannot strictly be granted for something that's already half built[although I have seen it happen] and retention permission can only be granted for something that's been completed.

Thirdly you could split the difference and seek retention for what's built and pernmisson for what's not yet built, but its three months with the roof half finished in the middle of winter - not a good idea.

I'd say your best bet is to weather what's there as best you can and seek permission for what you want - get a competent architect to advise you on the design and agree it with the planners.
Typically there are a host of other matters that should be considered by the archtiect including how the new space should flow from the existing house and structural, foundation and weathering issues.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                             as a defence or support - in and of itself -        should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                             Real Life with rights to inspect and issue      reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## mango7 (30 Oct 2010)

Why did you not put in a pitch roof when you built garage?

seems these flat roofs cause heaps of problems later on....


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## CBGB (6 Nov 2010)

Thanks for the responses. ONQ think will belt away with the pitched roof and finish and do the retention option. Weather has turned to muck and want it done ASAP. 
mango7 - the house was built in the 60's with the garage and flat roof.


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## ice (13 Jul 2012)

RKQ said:


> I assume the garage is on the front elevation as it is attached to the side of your Semi D. IMO any change to the front elevation requires full planning permission.
> 
> Changing from a flat roof to a pitched roof requires planning permission. (There are exemptions - overall roof height of 3m for flat roof or 4m for pitched roof but these exemptions have strict conditions. I am assuming your existing garage is over the floor area restriction. )
> 
> As you have started work, you can apply for Retention, the L.A will be €102 as opposed to €34 for permission. If a neighbour objects in writting during the construction then the Local Authority are obligated to investigate and stop all work on site if required. In this case, You risk being stopped by L.A prior to installing a water tight roof! (Worst case scenario)



Resurrecting this thread rather than start a new one as we are currently in a similar situation although at the early stages and haven't touched the roof yet.

How did you get on in the end OP ? Did you get your retention permission ?

 Where can I find out more about the exemptions if the pitched roof is under 4 meters? Thanks


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## lowCO2design (14 Jul 2012)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.html#sched2


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## ice (19 Jul 2012)

Thanks for the link. I have read through it and am none the wiser ! It's all very vague. I was focussing on part one of schedule two that deals with excemptions and couldn't find anything to say that I can change it and nothing to say I can't . 
I have had discussions with a number of architects. One said definitely not needed, the other said probably needed and the last one was not sure.


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## lowCO2design (27 Jul 2012)

ice said:


> Thanks for the link. I have read through it and am none the wiser ! It's all very vague. I was focussing on part one of schedule two that deals with excemptions and couldn't find anything to say that I can change it and nothing to say I can't .
> I have had discussions with a number of architects. One said definitely not needed, the other said probably needed and the last one was not sure.


I have applied/ had discussions with planners on several similar projects, you need a site inspection and if your getting different professional viewpoints then take a few pictures and email your local planner form their opinion (this is what any decent arch should do on your behalf ( but sometime we get tired of doing this for free) the closest arch to the planners opinion wins


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## Gervan (1 Sep 2012)

Onq, can you point me to the legislation for this?





> retention permission can only be granted for something that's been completed.



Our neighbours are building across our boundary without plans; we got the enforcement section of the council involved and a warning letter was sent. However, building continues apace, which I assumed was to get it complete before the county engineer inspects it, and then they could apply for retention. 
Someone from the council was round yesterday (not the inspector) and says retention permission has been applied for, even though the construction is still under way.

I can't help thinking there are council connections and any complaint we have made will be swept under the carpet, but we have to try.


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## lowCO2design (1 Sep 2012)

regardless of planning/retention or exemption. NO ONE should be building on your site.
any retention application (which you can view and get a copy of)must reflect this.
you are entitled to formally object to the proposed works now that they are submitted for retention.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0030/index.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2010/en/act/pub/0030/sec0006.html


your neighbour must be very naive to build over your boundary? have your discussed this with him/her. (all structure and rainwater must be kept on your neighbours side of the boundary) 

best of luck


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## Docarch (2 Sep 2012)

Just bear in mind Gervan that there are two seperate issues here - planning (or the apparent lack of it) and then civil law (building on/over the boundary). 

The Local Authority will simply not get involved in the later (they have no remit to do this). 

From what you say, your neighbour is quite simply trespassing on your property - the Local Authority _will not_ deal with or address this issue (only the planning issues). Advise your neighbour of their trespass on your property and then go to your solicitor and seek further advice.  

Also, as LowC02 says above, make an observation/objection to any retention application, and if they are granted permission, appeal to An Bord Pleanala.


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## Gervan (2 Sep 2012)

Should a site notice have been erected if they were going to apply for retention? 
We would not have known the application had been made if we hadn't by chance seen the visitor from the council. We will of course get in an objection.

As to going to a solicitor about the stealing of our property, we cannot. I am pretty sure the trespassers would get legal assistance, but we wouldn't. Legal fees are an open-ended cost; we just can't afford that.


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## Docarch (2 Sep 2012)

Gervan said:


> Should a site notice have been erected if they were going to apply for retention?


 
Yes?  At what stage is this application - do you know? 

As for the trespass, the Council cannot prevent or stop this - it is a civil matter.


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## lowCO2design (2 Sep 2012)

Gervan said:


> Should a site notice have been erected if they were going to apply for retention?
> We would not have known the application had been made if we hadn't by chance seen the visitor from the council. We will of course get in an objection.



contact the council, or check the planning files generally availbe on the net for each council.


> As to going to a solicitor about the stealing of our property, we cannot. I am pretty sure the trespassers would get legal assistance, but we wouldn't. Legal fees are an open-ended cost; we just can't afford that.


? this makes no sense? trespassing is trespassing.

stop dreaming about it, and talk to your neighbours! if they are not forthcoming with an apology and solution that keeps all works to their side of the boundary, then you really should at least threaten legal proceedings. its either that or you threaten taking a sledge hammer to the structure on your side of the boundary, and that's really not an avenue you want to take at this stage.


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