# My Boss is trying to get rid of me



## galaxyman (30 Mar 2008)

Hi everybody,any advice please!.have worked for same company 25 years three weeks ago my boss said he wanted me gone and offered 40k redundancy,I said I was shocked and asked him to put same in writing,when letter arrived he called it an ex gratia payment and said my employment can no longer continue!.I went into shock and went to doctor,when I came back to work he asked me to accept his offer.I declined and he sent me home,I went back to doctor who has me out on work related stress.My boss tried to make me go to his friend who is company doctor,I said I would eventually.
Whilst out on another cert he dismissed me saying it wasn't a valid excuse as he wanted me to come for a disciplinary hearing on a made up crap about not giving satisfactory work although he has been giving me work performance bonus for the last 4 years?.any advice???


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## agencydude (30 Mar 2008)

I think you need to talk to a solicitor that is an expert at employment law. Or if you're a member of a trade union , talk to someone in the trade union.

I think you also need to you look at your employment contract you signed 25yrs ago and see what it says about termination of employment.

If its a small company and you can't be redeployed to another department it might be ackward or stressful working with your boss if you tried to stay on.
So it might be worth your while trying to get as much money out of them and move on. 
Is your boss a director in the company?
Or does he have a boss above him? It might be worth checking out what other senior people in the company think of what he is doing. If he is a company director he probably thinks he can do whatever he wants.


You say he offered redundancy but then in the letter it said ex gratia payment. You only get redundancy if the company has no more work for you to do.

If he is now saying you're no good at your work then he has to follow a dismissal procedure. You should have an understanding of what the dismissal procedure is. It may be defined in your contract of employment.
  Typically it would be something like the following:  He has to go through a process where he warns you first and gives you the chance to improve.  This has to be documented. Then if this doesn't work he has to send you letters of warning that your job is on the line. If he hasn't followed any procedure like this, then this could be seen as an unfair dismissal  or wrongful dismissal . 


You'd want to be careful here about getting a lump sum for unfair dismissal or wrongful dismissal. You may have to pay tax on it. Check this out with  your solicitor.

For an unfair or wrongful dismissal you should be looking to get a min of 6 months salary.


Also when dealing with a solicitor you should try and make a deal so that the solicitor fees are added to your  compensation . ie your boss should pay your compensation PLUS your legal expenses. You should try and get this if its an unfair or wrongful dismissal.

Also if solicitors get involved the whole process could take ages to sort out, so you might as well type up your cv now and start looking around for work elsewhere.

Also if you do eventually agree to accept a lump sum payment and move on make sure you get a good written job reference from your boss as part of the agreement.

Hope this helps.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2008)

All very strange. 
He is not in a position to say if the cert is valid or not.
It sounds like you are being treated very badly.
As advised I would go to a solicitor and get some advice. Do not get your solicitor actively involved at this stage but do explain things. It might be a good idea to write it all out and send it via post or e-mail to the solicitor before the meeting. This gives a good linear view of what has happened.


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## shipibo (30 Mar 2008)

What was company doctors opinion, did it differ from original doctor ??

It is important you know the answer.

Are you looking for job back, or to get maximum severance possible ....


Go to http://www.flac.ie , they will put you in contact with good industrial relations solicitor in your area

Do not worry , you have lodged a complaint on your dismissal in writing to company (if not, do it),  registered letter would be advisable.

Keep all letters from company, check policies regarding warnings / dismissals in company ..


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## aidan119 (30 Mar 2008)

I'm guessing this is a small company with no sense of procedure, based on the way your boss has handled this.

A key issue is whether he making *you *redundant or your *position* redundant. If it is the *position *that is being made redundant then there is not much you can do unless there is some policy or general understanding about a "last in first out" for similar people in the position. He should give proper notice or pay in lieu of such notice. Legally he only has to give you statutory redundancy and 40k would more than cover this for 25 yrs service.

If he intends to hire a new person afterwards then he is making you redundant and you have a good case for either following unfair dismissal route or negotiating a better exit package.

Did he give you the official notice of redundancy, RP1 form i think it is. 
The fact that you went sick after being told about the redundancy is a bit of a red herring and is confusing the case. He had already said he was making you redundant.

If you follow an unfair dismissal case the max you can get under the act is 2 yrs salary. But this is very seldom awarded. I don't know what your current salary is but balance this ( say 1.5 times ) against the 40k offer.

It may be hard to accept, but if he doesn't want you there then you need to get out. Life will be too stressful. After you accept this fact it is down to negotiation. He has already offered 40k, maybe you could negotiate it up to 60 or more. Depends on your current salary. He probably realises that he has made a bit of a mess of this already. This is to your favour. Then you make a clean start. 

Even after an unfair dissmisal case you will still have to make a clean start. Much easier to go into a job interview saying you were made redundant because of economy slowdown with a reference than trying to hide the fact that you took an unfair dismissal case. However right you feel you were to take the case a future employer may not see it that way.


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## galaxyman (1 Apr 2008)

guys and girls,thanks for all the replies.Just to clarify a few things.one,my position is not redundant,he just thinks he is paying me too much and he thinks that he can maintain my job by using cheaper staff that are already there.
He has been paying me,albeit it reluctantly a annual bonus based on increased sales,which have been going up year on year.
two.its a small company with maybe 15 staff,he is owner and director,no contract was ever signed and no terms and conditions were ever put in place,we have no safety statement,no greivance procedure,no payment of wages policy and so on.
in 5 yeras the whole staff have had an accumalated wage increase of no more than 6%?.I had asked that his redundancy offer be put in writing and after bullying and harrasssing me,I went to my doctor shocked and stressed,who told me to take a week off,he sent me a letter calling it an ex gratia payment which was confusing?,in the same letter he alluded to the fact that my employment could not continue for various made up reasons,which are blatant lies,when I returned to work after a week of severe stress,he asked me was I accepting the offer,I said I couldn't as I had too many financial commitments,he sent me home on full pay and in that week I received a series of emails,texts and letters which were designed to discredit me with colleauges,customers and suppliers.he said that he had launched an investigation with some of my customers and wanted me to appear to a disciplinary meeting where a decision would be made about my future,although he said it would be conducted under the IBEC code of practice,no copy of said practice was given to me and I didn't even know we were in IBEC.
my advisors have written to him asking for copies of all the relevant documentation,such as terms and conditions,safety statement,bullying and harrasment statement,saftey and welfare at work act,and so on but he just sent an email saying he wasn't obliged to do so and wouldn't be doing so.
finally,whilst still out on sick cert,he sent another email,demanding my presence at a reconvened disciplinary hearing and if I sent another sick cert in that this was not a valid reason and a decision would be made in my absence which was made last week saying,the company has decide  to dismiss you.
sorry for the long winded reply but this is really stressing me out!any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated?


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## Diziet (1 Apr 2008)

yes - take your solicitor with you at the next meeting. You need to have an end figure in mind and negotiate with that in mind. Make sure your solicitor is an expert in employment law.

Your solicitor needs to get aggressive I feel and make it crystal clear that this will go to tribunal unless amicably resolved.

Keep a detailed diary and copies of all emails, texts, correspondence etc.

Realistically, you will not be happy working there any longer (at least not if you want to preserve your health), so the objective is to get a good, tax efficient payout.


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## paddyodoors (1 Apr 2008)

Wow you have worked there for 25years? Is the boss who is trying to get rid of you the same one as when you started? 

Its all relative but 40K sounds like a good payout, what role is it? and what are your earnings per annum?

If he is saying that he can maintain your job using existing staff - then I assume that this would fall under the heading of your role being made redundant.

Either way I agree with other posters that is will be difficult to remain there now due to ill feeling, so get a good employment law solicitor and get the max payout and as mentioned by agencydude - a good reference

Do you think that you will have difficulty finding similar work elsewhere? have a look through some of the job website and see what similar roles are on offer and what experience they require - am sure you would have it covered.

Personally I'd love a 40k payoff, and just move onto a similar job down the road...


Paddy


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## rogeroleary (1 Apr 2008)

galaxyman said:


> Whilst out on another cert he dismissed me saying it wasn't a valid excuse


 - Straight away - that's unfair dismissal. Total breach of procedures and his legal people / IBEC will advise him of same. Max compensation is 2 years salary and you could get reinstated but that's probably not desireable as trust has completely broken down.

Regarding the 40k while it might sound like a lot to some people, if it were really a redundancy payment (and this does not sound like a redundancy situation) there would be tax benefits. If its just and ex-gratia payment the tax could be painful.

If you depict this scenario accurately I think you could take this guy to the cleaners - after 25 years of service I reckon he deserves it. Make sure to get an expert in employment legislation to represent you.

Roger


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## wazee1974 (2 Apr 2008)

My God, that sort of treatment after 25 years service!!!!!!!! Exactly why did you stay for 25 years in that environment.

I think you should get organised and seriously get some legal advice.....
Since you are officially still an employee then you should have access to all the relevant procedures regarding greviance, bullying etc.

If hes putting you on "Garden" leave then you are still entitled to all the benefits of an employee until your notice period is over.

Personally 40k after 25 years is pretty paltry..


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## galaxyman (2 Apr 2008)

Hi guys and gals,My p45 arrived today and was told that its my perogative to appeal but they gave me no way of appealing?
they are still saying they are not obliged to respond to my representatives?.
I'm a bit lost here gys/gals!.feel really down!


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## NicolaM (2 Apr 2008)

Hi Galaxyman
They sound like a right bunch, it's a really unpleasant way to be treated.
Have you spoken to a solicitor yet? It looks like that might be the best way to go to get further advise and help?
Hope it works out ok for you,
Nicola


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## galaxyman (2 Apr 2008)

NicolaM said:


> Hi Galaxyman
> They sound like a right bunch, it's a really unpleasant way to be treated.
> Have you spoken to a solicitor yet? It looks like that might be the best way to go to get further advise and help?
> Hope it works out ok for you,
> Nicola


have been advised by two good guys who suggest civil court just have to sit tight until they come back


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## lightup (2 Apr 2008)

galaxyman said:


> have been advised by two good guys who suggest civil court just have to sit tight until they come back


 
In the meantime document everything.  Make sure you have copies of all correspondence. Write down times, dates and contents of all phonecalls, discussions and meetings since the problems began.


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## Diziet (2 Apr 2008)

galaxyman said:


> have been advised by two good guys who suggest civil court just have to sit tight until they come back



You only have a limited time to appeal unfair dismissal (6 months I think, but check). So you need to get this in motion as soon as possible.

I am surprised by the civil court suggestion. It has its place, but it is an expensive and slow option. Labour court of rights commissioner are alternatives. Mind you, court summons concentrate the mind!

Whatever you do, do not let the unfair dismissal timescale lapse.


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## becky (2 Apr 2008)

galaxyman said:


> have been advised by two good guys who suggest civil court just have to sit tight until they come back


 

The courts prefer that people use the labour court/Rights Commissioners first as these people are the experts.  They are also the cheaper option- that €40K would not last long using the civil courts.


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## galaxyman (2 Apr 2008)

becky said:


> The courts prefer that people use the labour court/Rights Commissioners first as these people are the experts.  They are also the cheaper option- that €40K would not last long using the civil courts.


Hi Becky, I don't even have the 40k as he pulled it!


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## Black Sheep (2 Apr 2008)

It appears to me that is a clear case for Redundancy. Your say he will be using cheaper staff that are already there so you are "surplus to requirements" and therefore your position no longer exists.

Therefore you are entitled to your Statutory Redundancy even if he has pulled  the earlier €40k which was an ex-gratia payment ie. above and beyond the Statutory payment.

As other posters have said get a good Employment Law solicitor and think carefully what outcome you are working towards. Working for that employer is never an option again.

Best of luck


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## michaelm (2 Apr 2008)

Black Sheep said:


> It appears to me that is a clear case for Redundancy. Your say he will be using cheaper staff that are already there so you are "surplus to requirements" and therefore your position no longer exists.


I have to disagree with this.  It's clearly unfair dismissal and you should be looking at up to two years wages in the Labour Court.  Sounds like you're better off (health-wise) out of that situation.


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## galaxyman (4 Apr 2008)

A little update on this people,they have sent me my p45 with my 8 weeks notice pay and says that I can to appeal which is my perogative but he won't still recognize my representatives and won't be answering any requests for documentation relating to my employment? he says I'm sure your legal reps can deal with issues raised by my representatives?
Does he have a right to do this???


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## sparkeee (4 Apr 2008)

time is of the essence,get a solicitor pronto.


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## Welfarite (4 Apr 2008)

Have you not gone to EL solicitor yet? Who are your representatives? Are they qualified to represent you in an Unfair Dismissals hearing? Take the advice given here over and over again and go to a EL solicitor adn take a case against the company. Forget about the personality issues that seem to be clouding things and deal with your rights under Employment Law. Nobody here can tell you what are the correct steps that need to be taken without the full facts and details of both sides of the dispute.


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## gillarosa (4 Apr 2008)

If and when you take a case against him either to the Labour Court (preferably) or another court he will have to deal with your representatives. I imagine the only details you need are already to hand, you have dates you commenced employment and any paperwork you have received since this kicked off, plus I think you have taken notes of conversations he has had with you and other incidences so your Solicitor will not need to obtain fact finding details from them.  I imagine you are feeling stressed and nervous about the situation but don't allow the tone of his correspondance give you the impression that he has legal right on his side, it sounds like he is either mis-interpreting legal advise he may or may not have received in this matter or is unconcerned due to arrogance about the possible outcome of mistreating an Employee as he has. I'd advise that you ring the Labour Court as soon as possible, prior to cashing the cheque you received, to get immediate information on how to proceed as I am not sure but acceptance of pay in lieu of notice may be acceptance of the termination of employment.

Good Luck.


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## galaxyman (4 Apr 2008)

Yes he is mis-interpreting legal advise he may or may not have received and will only tell a one sided story,my reps are human resource guys and they are saying he has really shot himself in the foot with all his negative responses and he has absolutely no justification dismissing you because you turned down an offer of a made up redundancy,my position is not redundant,its just about personality issues which are in his head!


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## Edie75 (4 Apr 2008)

I dont like saying this but i am a solicitor and really feel u have a good case but u MUST go an see a solicitor to make that first step is essential.. Time is of the essence Make ur appointment first thing monday morning! They will need time to lodge youur papers gather info send letters to the other side will probably be the first step Go on -you owe it to yourself to stand up to these bullys


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## galaxyman (4 Apr 2008)

Edie75 said:


> I dont like saying this but i am a solicitor and really feel u have a good case but u MUST go an see a solicitor to make that first step is essential.. Time is of the essence Make ur appointment first thing monday morning! They will need time to lodge youur papers gather info send letters to the other side will probably be the first step Go on -you owe it to yourself to stand up to these bullys


thanks for all the kind words,its very comforting!.My advisors are still trying to get him to see sense and get a amicable outcome,but its pure arrogance on his behalf!.I need closure on this as its very distressing! there has been a series of steps e.g. asking to be heard under grievance procedure,asking for health and safety statements,right of appeal, asking for terms and conditions,but they just keep saying that they don't recognize my reps who I have said I want to represent me in this case and refuse to furnish any documentation sought?


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## rogeroleary (5 Apr 2008)

galaxyman said:


> I need closure on this as its very distressing!


 
Galaxyman, I really can understand ow you feelbut that is exactly what this ba$tard wants. You need to time of the big picture here - this guy has left himself seriously exposed and the LRC/EAT would take a very dim view of his approach. I'm not a solicitor but I do have plenty of experience of the EAT / LC and they hate employers who behave like this.

Get advice next week...... it doesn't have to be Monday, the important thing is to get the right representative.

Roger


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## NicolaM (5 Apr 2008)

Galaxyman,
I understand that you are upset, but you should not leave that hinder you in getting legal representation.
It would seem that you need to abandon the 'advisors' route (as it is_ not_ _working_) and get a solicitor.
It may well be that your employer is being completely obstructive: so be it. You do not have any way of changing what he does or how he is reacting to this situation.
But you DO have the ability to get a solicitor involved, and from what people have posted here, it seems that although your current position is dreadful, you have legal redress.
Talk to your friends about how bad you feel about how you are being treated, but engage a solicitor to do the necessary legal work, as the fact you're feeling bad and hard done by isn't progressing your case at all.  You are unable to be objective in this, as it's very personal. A solicitor would act as your advocate, and give objective advise, and could deal with your ex-employer on your behalf
Best of luck (and get a solicitor as soon as you can!!!!!!)
Nicola
PS what is making you not get a solicitor, given that you appear to have a good case? Are you concerned about how much is would cost, or that you might upset your old employer, or is it something else?


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## galaxyman (5 Apr 2008)

NicolaM said:


> Galaxyman,
> I understand that you are upset, but you should not leave that hinder you in getting legal representation.
> It would seem that you need to abandon the 'advisors' route (as it is_ not_ _working_) and get a solicitor.
> It may well be that your employer is being completely obstructive: so be it. You do not have any way of changing what he does or how he is reacting to this situation.
> ...



yes firstly it was the cost,secondly my advisors are telling me that I will need a legal representative at some stage but that we had to go down every path that was fair and practiable before we took a legal route and it looks like we have reached that point.Thirdly this person is related to me and 25 years ,even if they don't feel the same way,loyalty means something to me.This person is ill and I am trying my best to see past that and move on,but the illness won't let them


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## gnubbit (5 Apr 2008)

Hi Galaxyman,

Sorry to hear you're in this horrible situation - don't lose heart, it can and will get sorted.

I was in a similar situation and everyone (friends, family, co-workers) all wanted to advise me but in the end, only a solicitor with plenty of experience in employment law was able to help me.  Finding someone suitable wasn't easy - I used the Golden Pages and spoke to many before finding someone.  I had researched my case a lot myself and after a while, got a feel for who understood the issues.  Ask what kinds of similar cases they have worked on and what the outcome was.

What your legal rep cannot help with is figuring out what outcome you want.  In my case, it would have been unbearable to go back so reinstatement was not an option.  I looked for compensation to allow a fresh start, which thankfully it did and I have never looked back!  In fact it's the best thing that ever happened to me.

Please feel free to PM me if I can be any help.

Best of luck,
g


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## gnubbit (5 Apr 2008)

Another thing, I used one solicitor to get the initial paperwork in before the deadline  which he actually did for free.  That solicitor didn't have confidence in the case so I looked for another (had plenty of time before the court date).  I only paid about 400 (ended up only having one or two consulations) and the case was settled out of court.


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## gnubbit (5 Apr 2008)

Just one more thing  ...

As part of my settlement I insisted on a glowing written reference (which I wrote myself based on my performance reviews and input from co-workers).  As it turns out, I never needed it but it gave me peace of mind as I had no reason to trust that I would be given a fair reference.  

Document everything.  Write down everything that is done and said, when it happened, who was there, how it made you feel, what the outcome was.  Get anything you can from work - emails, diaries, copies performance reviews.  My co-workers were a great help to me in this regard.


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## Flax (5 Apr 2008)

Whether the guy is a family member or is ill, he clearly does not give a damn about you.

I work with human resources people on a daily basis and they are useless. I really think you need to dump your human resources advisors and get talking to a solicitor.

I can't see a fair outcome unless you get a solicitor involved.


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## galaxyman (5 Apr 2008)

gnubbit said:


> Just one more thing  ...
> 
> As part of my settlement I insisted on a glowing written reference (which I wrote myself based on my performance reviews and input from co-workers).  As it turns out, I never needed it but it gave me peace of mind as I had no reason to trust that I would be given a fair reference.
> 
> Document everything.  Write down everything that is done and said, when it happened, who was there, how it made you feel, what the outcome was.  Get anything you can from work - emails, diaries, copies performance reviews.  My co-workers were a great help to me in this regard.



Gnubbit,Thanks I have sent two pm messages to you!


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## galaxyman (5 Apr 2008)

anybody out there recommend a really good employment solicitor?


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## Teabag (6 Apr 2008)

galaxyman said:


> A little update on this people,they have sent me my p45 with my 8 weeks notice pay and says that I can to appeal which is my perogative but he won't still recognize my representatives and won't be answering any requests for documentation relating to my employment? he says I'm sure your legal reps can deal with issues raised by my representatives?
> Does he have a right to do this???



He could have joined IBEC recently and they could be advising him. They know all the tricks so you need to get your own legal advice straight away and document everything that has happened since the trouble began. Keep all emails, texts, letters etc.


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## NicolaM (11 Apr 2008)

Hi Galaxyman
Have things moved on any bit for you yet? Hopefully they have,
Best of luck
Nicola


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## galaxyman (23 Apr 2008)

Hi all, Have an appointment with employment solicitor this week with a view to taking unfair dismissal case and a bullying case.I will let you know how it goes.don't know wether its a high court issue to make it speedier?


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## Sue Ellen (23 Apr 2008)

galaxyman said:


> Hi all, Have an appointment with employment solicitor this week with a view to taking unfair dismissal case and a bullying case.I will let you know how it goes.don't know wether its a high court issue to make it speedier?



Best of luck with.  Make sure you tie down costs as soon as you enter talks with the solicitor.


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## Soldier (23 Apr 2008)

Totally take him to court. he sounds so mean. youll prob get more than 40 grand if you take him to court.


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## NicolaM (23 Apr 2008)

I second Suellen, gets costs in writing first, and you won't be worried about a surprise bill at the end.
Well done on taking things in hand, and the best of luck.

Nicola


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## galaxyman (27 Apr 2008)

Hi all have seen an employment solicitor who is 100% confident I will win my case,lodged a complaint into EATand reckons it could be sept/oct before anything comes of same.doesn't know how mush compo will be awarded but says two years salary is very very rare.Should i let this run or fold?


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## NicolaM (27 Apr 2008)

Hi Galaxyman
I'm not sure what you mean by 'run or fold'? Do you mean not go ahead with the case?
Your solicitor seems very confident that you will win.
Even if you did not get two years compensation, you will still in all likelihood get compensated.
I think you have made the right decisions so far, stick with it would be my advise.
You have nothing to win by 'folding', but you may end up with a bit of a nest egg by going ahead. You are also in a position where you will need to get another job: have you managed this yet? If not you are currently without a wage.
This is not 'compo' culture (which I despise!): you have been treated very badly and are stuck without a job as a result of this. You are also protected in law from being treated like this.
Please take the advise of your solicitor,
The best of luck 

Regards
Nicola


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## Purple (27 Apr 2008)

Good advice on costs. A (true) little story;
A friend of mine took a case against her employer, engaged a solicitor from a major Dublin firm. Said solicitor who told her that she was 100% sure my friend would win. 10 months, a few letters and a bill for €24'000 later she lost. She complained that the advice she got was incorrect in law and the bill was dropped to €9'500. As far as I am concerned she should have paid nothing.


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## galaxyman (27 Apr 2008)

NicolaM said:


> Hi Galaxyman
> I'm not sure what you mean by 'run or fold'? Do you mean not go ahead with the case?
> Your solicitor seems very confident that you will win.
> Even if you did not get two years compensation, you will still in all likelihood get compensated.
> ...


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## galaxyman (27 Apr 2008)

Sorry Nicola,What I meant by run or fold was just run with just a case of unfair dismissal which solicitor is confident about and fold on a seperate bullying case which is harder to prove,maybe would involve a high court and all expense that can bring.No I haven't secured another job as he has given me a really crap reference and thats another thing I will be fighting for.25 years in the same place does your head in!


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## NicolaM (27 Apr 2008)

That's grim, Galaxyman.
Does anyone here know the legal position for references in situations like this? (any solicitors able to help here?).
I do not know if you would have work appraisals/performance reviews from over the past few years to refer to (I'm guessing not, if a family business), or testimonials from your colleagues maybe?
I am aware that someone can decline to give a reference, but giving an unmerited  'bad' reference is something else entirely, (you could refer to your performance related pay increases over the last few years, for example, in defence of your work.)
Has your solicitor given you any advise re your reference?
What do other AAM-ers think about a bullying case?
At the very least, things are moving forward for you though, which is positive

Nicola


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## Diziet (27 Apr 2008)

Bullying cases are notoriously difficult in a court setting, however strong they may appear. It may be worth doing a search for cases in the courts database and making an assessment for yourself. There are people whose lives have been destroyed by bullying and the court either found in the employer's favor or watered down the result so much it was hardly worth bringing. Take careful legal advice on whether the aggravation is worth it. High Court is very expensive to bring a case to. Unfair dismissal is far more clear cut.

Mediation is even better - there are professional mediators (usually solicitors) and your solicitor may want to suggest this as an alternative to court proceedings.


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## NickyK (27 Apr 2008)

Maybe now that you're unemployed you could go down the route of legal aid? At least you wouldn't get stung with a nasty legal fee. Best of Luck


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## ShaneF (29 Apr 2008)

Hiya
Is your company a big one? Are they still hiring other people at the moment?


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## galaxyman (2 May 2008)

ShaneF said:


> Hiya
> Is your company a big one? Are they still hiring other people at the moment?


No its a small company,16 people but yes they are still employing people.


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