# Help for All my Family



## HelpASAP (1 Oct 2006)

Ok guys this is a long one for thanks for your patience in advance.

Let me give you some background

I am 22, my sister is 24, my mother is 50 and my dad is 52

Five years ago my Dad took redundancy from a company he worked for 25 years. He decided to go into business and opened up a shop, it failed after a year and put both my mam and dad under sever presure. My dad then worked as an Sales Agent for Acorn Life, that also failed. To cut a long story short he basically scraped by working for civil service for last year but that ended 3 months ago and the man is in severe depression as he cant get a job. We asked him could he please do Hackney driving and I would provide the money to start up in terms of car loan. He said he cant do it, now folks I know that sounds amazing but he doesnt get out of bed,he has been assesd for several nurses and went to doctors and sought help but he goes once and never goes back again as he says they dont help.

Here is my problem.

My mam is working part time and earning around 220 a week. I myself am paying my dads credit cards along with covering some bills along with my sister. My mam has no money as everything she earns pays bills. We have no mortgage left Thank god but my mam is living a life of missery and has been since my dad took retirement as he really hasnt had any solid income for 5 years. It has reached breaking point and me and my sister stepped in the other night and said this cannot go on. We told my dad months ago that if he isnt willing to do the hackney and cannot find a job then we will have to consider selling the house to raise funds as at the moment my Mam has NOTHING to live on, she has been shouldering his repsonsiliby for years now. I have lent my mam 10k but I cant go on lending her money because its only a short term solution. My dad simply will not do ANYTHING about this. I have now come to the realisation that he is not mentally able to work and this could take years to get him better, And unfortuanely we do not have years. Folks, in plain plian English, we have been struggling the last few years and now my Mam has NO MONEY left and her husband is not going to provide.

What we suggested is as follows.

They have to sell the house. They would recieve I think around 380k (valuation ordered for Tuesday). Say after tax and selling % they would be left with 170k each (I dont know the exact taxed, I need to find this out).

With that 170k they would need to rent somewhere,My mam would be ok as her pay would pay the rent and then she could use the money to live off. Realistically she would spend around 9k per year living. I want her to put 65k of this money into a 5 year bond so that in 5 years when her money runs out hopefully she will have a return of around 75k to then live off for the follwing 8/9 years. Now I hear you ask well what happens then?

Well I have decided that it will be down to me. I am looking to buy a house next Summer to get on the property ladder asap. My aim being that in 10/15 years when this money runs out I will have to invest in another property which my Mam can then live in rent free and call her own. I know this will put strain on me but what else can I do. WE HAVE NO MONEY, MY MAM IS UNDER ENORMOUS FINANCIAL AND HEALTH PRESSURE, THIS CANNOT GO ON. HER RELATIONS CANNOT HELP. LOANS ONLY ARE A SHORT TERM SOLUTION.APART FROM SELLING THE HOUSE WHAT OTHER SOLUTION DO WE HAVE? MY DAD WILL NOT GET OUT OF BED!!!!! 

And folks I would appriciate the no one make suggesstions like "Well your dad will have to cop on and relaise what is going on" Trust me on this one it has been said not a million but a billion times. I really dont know what my dad will do. His Parents are still alive in Cork,He will have to go live with them. My mam and the rest of us are sick of him to a certain extent.although I do still love him but This post will be deleted if not edited immediately he makes it incredibly hard. I am a financial consultant myself but This post will be deleted if not edited immediately I have never came across this. I can advise my mam on various pension plans(well the house I buy in 10 years is her pension plan). and the bonds to invest in but Am i doing the right thing by saying we have to seel the house?

Cheers everyone,

I know selling the house is a massive massive step but it is that desperate!


----------



## liteweight (1 Oct 2006)

Firstly if they sell the family home there is no tax liability although there will be advertising and legal fees. I take it your mother is willing to split from your father? This is not a decision to be taken by you or your siblings.

Your father is obviously in the depths of depression. Has your mother spoken to his doctor and explained exactly what is going on with him? It's important for all of you to realise that it's not a case of him not bothering to drive a hackney....he's not capable by the sound of it. The worst thing that can be said to a depressive is 'pull yourself together'...they really can't!!

Does your father claim unemployment benefit or social welfare? I imagine he's entitled and there may be other reliefs that your mother can claim. Sorry I couldn't be more help. I'm truly sorry to hear of your predicament.


----------



## HelpASAP (1 Oct 2006)

Thanks for the reply,good to know about tax and the selling agents will charge .6% around 3k.


I agree my Dad in my opinion cannot work,he metanlly and physically now cannot so it is not a case of not bothering,but I have lived with the man for years and there was a time when we told him it would be very hard to get a good job at his age and that he should do taxying but he refused to,what he did instead was work for the civil service and hated it so much he rang in sick every week,I dont know how he didnt get sacked.

Its da bu he is so bad now that he is bedridden, and he would of been entitled to Social Welfare but he never bother to chase it up and never registered himself as being unemployed so . We have asked the nurse to chase this up which she is doing but we cant wait for him and cant live with him just claiming welfare,its not fair on my mam,for years she has carried him and is she be expected to do so for another 10 years and waste her life????

It is very bad, I have to admit selling the house for anyone is a bad idea but ultimately its the best option we have.

We have 2 choices

1) Stay as it is and live in missery in the hope my dad will regain his life an dget better,we have asked him to do this plenty of times and offered our support in helping him get help so there is nothing to suggest this man will ever change


2) Sell the house so my mam will have a sound/happy life financially until 65 when then I will be able to help her financially and she can retire without money worries,If she left things as they are she would have these money problems till the day she dies,she told me the other night she has high blood pressure and gets pains in her chest with the stress of it all so if things stay as they are anything could happen to her.


The main advice I was seeking was what to do with the 170k she gets from the sale as unfortunaelty it looks like we have to sell


----------



## gailey (1 Oct 2006)

Do your parents have to split up after the sale of the house? Why rent after the sale of the house? Why dont they sell the house and relocate to somewhere smaller or somewhere else in Ireland. I moved from Dublin to the midlands. Bought a bigger house and still made a good profit. Why don't they retire to a smaller house in the country. It might do wonders for your father's health and clear any on outstanding debt. A new start is maybe what they need and you can get on with your own life.


----------



## HelpASAP (1 Oct 2006)

Could be an idea,but I think my Mam has had enough,and ultimately its not a house they need its money and my dad looks like he never will provide,if they move down the country then my mam wont have her job anymore and whatever chance my dad has of getting a job will reduce as obviously down the country there are less opputrtunitys,MY Mam and Dad may aswlel be split up and besides my dad is causing my Mam huge stress problems which are effecting her health


----------



## gailey (1 Oct 2006)

Do some  research.There are more jobs down the country than you think. Both your parents could find work. There are plenty of jobs. They could make a good profit selling the house and live off proceeds for a while. Look at main towns like Athlone or Mullingar.Think about it.Would be a better option than renting or splitting up.


----------



## liteweight (1 Oct 2006)

You know (I mean this kindly) none of these decisions are yours to make. Does your mother WANT to leave your father? Is she just so down at the moment that she can't think straight? In those circumstances I understand her need to turn to one of her children, but the hard decisions remain hers and not yours. You seem to assume that your Dad will agree to a sale...he might not!! Your whole family needs help from a professional.

Mr. Liteweight has done his best for his family all his life. He is the same age as your Dad. If, for some reason, he could no longer do it, I hope I'd step in. I know that's easy to say but if your father AND mothr get some help, they may be able to regain what they once had. Perhaps this is what your mother would prefer........she just can't see how to get it at the moment.


----------



## HelpASAP (1 Oct 2006)

My mam has been living through this hell for years now and enough is enough,we sat down the other night as a family and asked and pleaded with my Dad to get help or then we will have to seel the house, he said he cant get help,Im not being selfish for my Mam here but this Man has had a million chances and he has been so selfish over the last few years,now he has made himself ill,and make no mistake about it,it is his fault he is ill. My Mam has no money,she keeps saying she is leaving him and has done for the last few years but didnt cause of guilt. Now I am stepping in,If I dont my Dad has threatened to kill himself plenty of times and If I dont step in now it could kill my Mam with stress. Your right in saying it isnt my decision but I am not willing to stand by and watch my Dad kill himself and ultimately end up killing my Mam with stress and worry. Like at the moment pure and simple my Mams life is a misery and has been for years because of him.


----------



## HelpASAP (1 Oct 2006)

Mate I dont mean o be rude but I did mention earlier I didnt want any suggesstion about my Dad getting help. We have asked him do to this a BILLION times and he wont, he plain and simply wont so Please everyone do not suggesst this again. IT IS NOT AN OPTION


----------



## ajapale (1 Oct 2006)

Please do not use all caps in your post(s). . And please make the title of your post relevant. posting guideline 2.


----------



## sherib (1 Oct 2006)

Hi there Helpasap

I'm very sorry to read of the situation of your family. It's a pity your Father refuses the help he obviously needs but I can understand it. Apart from depression his self esteem must be at rock bottom. It seems to me an increase in the household income might provide some breathing space even temporarily. Whether or not he might be eligible for a Social Welfare Allowance depends on a number of factors (I'm not an expert).

You said your Father worked for 25 years. Did he pay PRSI? Hopefully the answer is yes. I was glad to read that in the past year he was employed in the civil service and again, hopefully, had PRSI deducted. In that case there are a number of Allowances/Benefits for which he might be eligible - Disability Benefit/Allowance. Here is the Oasis link:-


You might also consider the idea of talking to your local Community Welfare Officer for advice. I agree that moving elsewhere might not be a good idea. I presume that releasing equity in the house or an interest only loan would not be a solution in the circumstances?

This is too big a problem for someone so young to try to solve alone so I do think talking to someone familiar with situations like this might help you, e.g. a CWO. I can well understand how you see your Father as responsible but a step as great as selling the family home is a decision for your parents to make - your Father might not agree or even your Mother. 

Your greatest concern is for your Mother - understandably. However it is often a fact that couples prefer to live with less than ideal circumstances rather than separate. Only they can be the judge of that. It might be that you are too close to the situation to assess it objectively, which is why I suggest talking to your local Community Welfare Officer. You must talk to someone outside of the immediate family - that's my opinion anyway. When people are too close to a problem and have been weighed down for years a solution may seem impossible when that is not always the case. Take advice and see what happens - Good luck.

PS I hope your Father has torn up the Credit Cards and is not incurring further debt. It could be that in five years time he might regain his health and be able to take charge of his life. Don't forget he probably did his best for his family for 25 years.


----------



## HelpASAP (1 Oct 2006)

All my dad ever says when asked a question is "I dont know what to do" and no he isnt running up debt because he wouldnt get up out of bed to do so,instead I have to get 10k loan out and I have been paying his credit card bills the last year now.9k on them.

His self esteem is low but he never ever ever ever does anything about the situation. He wont go for help,he cant get a job,he wont get out of bed. Simple as this he wont do anything about it an never will EVER!!!

We have to sell the house as hopefully by getting money for 10/15 years it will allow him to get up without the worries of money and get help and ultimately get a job although a think his marriage is over and I do feel sorry for him but lads it is 100% his fault. In fairness he was unluck with the business he set up but the way he has acted and responded to it is discusting. My mam continued to go to work with the exact same money problems as him and what did he choose to do do, he said he said he cudnt face work and sat in bed eating crisps watching TV while his wife went out to work to earn money to pay the bills. At times he really is a discusting excuse of a man


----------



## gotsomenow (1 Oct 2006)

Your Dad is very sick from the sounds of what you have told us. If he is depressed, then he will be acting out of character and he physically will not be able to listen/care/respond to anything you ask.  I think you are underestimating his illness, and you should all sit down as a family and tackle this issue first and foremost!  There are some great medications out there now, and if your father was to attend a GP, and if needs be you should all make him go.  He could get his life back on track very quickly.

I really don't think it's a fact or he won't more he can't.


----------



## CharlieMcC (1 Oct 2006)

Hi HelpASAP,

Your family situation sounds desperately painful, I can only imagine it occupies your every waking moment, life must be impossible at the moment.

You *will* get excellent financial advice here, as I have done, but your family's problems seem a whole lot more than financial, so maybe you should also look to other sources for advice and help? I'm not sure this forum is the best place. 

All I want to say is that I hugely admire your concern for your mother, there are a depressing number of households in this country (and I have personal experience of a couple) where the mother is viewed as the father's 'supporting cast', as if she was only put on this earth to prop him up, and her own needs are secondary. This isn't a Germaine Greer type rant rolleyes: ), this is fact. 

There *is* only so much you can do for your father, again from personal experience I know that it can reach a point where troubled people like him simply drag everyone else down with him. Of course you continue trying to help, but I can completely understand why you want to free your mother from a situation where her life is simply being destroyed by someone who has given up.

It *must* be her decision whether or not she leaves him, but she *must* also be supported - and *not* to be made feel guilty - if she decides she has had enough. She has one life, she must be encouraged to live it, and not to be made felt her duty is to prop up a husband who has given up. 

I might be wrong but I would guess that the majority of people (including some on this board) who offer advice suggest that she shouldn't leave him, that she's somehow morally obliged to continue supporting him, in practical and emotional terms. She's *not*. I'd like to think marriage/partnership is about give and take, it sounds like your mother is doing all the giving, in every way.

So if, in your heart, you believe her only hope is to leave him then talk to her about it, see how she feels. Allow her to make the decision, but if she hints that she *wants* to leave him but feels she shouldn't, then encourage her to make the break.

Your father clearly needs help, but, ultimately, only he can seek and accept it. His family can make all the appointments in the world for him, but you can't drag him there. He deserves sympathy, depression of that depth is a living hell, but in these situations I have as much sympathy for the family of the sufferer as I do the sufferer, they are _victims_ too. 

So, do what you think is right, don't make decisions *for* your mother, but encourage her to think about herself and her own future. She is incredibly fortunate to have a son like you who cares for her so much.

I wish you all the very best.


----------



## Diziet (2 Oct 2006)

Depression is an illness, and your dad is entitled to financial assistance (I believe it is €165 per week incapacity benefit and hopefully he will have enough PRSI).

I have some experience of this, as my partner suffers from depression. Your dad will genuinely be unable to work. He will also probably be unable to cope with form filling etc, so you will have to do this for him.

Go talk to the Social Security people on his behalf, having talked to his GP first. Then fill in the forms, get him and his GP to file them and send them in. In my experience the social security staff are very helpful and sympathetic. This will at least remove the immediate financial pressure.

If you can have your dad assessed by a psychiatrist (through your GP) and accessing outpatient services this would be good. They go group meetings, art therapy etc and it really helps to get out of the house and talk to people who are in the same boat.

The thing is, someone with depression literally loses the will to live, and any motivation goes out of the window. So you or your mum may have to do the legwork and accompany him to appointments etc. It is no use hoping he will be able to do these things himself when he is so low. He won't, until he starts to feel better.

take care,
Diziet


----------



## HelpASAP (2 Oct 2006)

Listen thanks for the help but as I have said I dont want advice on what to do with my dad.


We have sat down as a family 20/30 times trying to help him. We have got our GP to call to the house 6 times in 4 months. We have had a nurse here 3 times in 6 months. He will not do anything about it.


----------



## Megan (2 Oct 2006)

Have you thought about how you are going to go about selling the house with you Dad in bed all the time. People viewing etc.
I know you have given up on him but please dont - I would get another doctor's opinion and hopefully get him some help and then take it from there because I am sure your Dad has some rights (no matter how bad he has being to you Mum) as to what happens to his home.


----------



## ClubMan (2 Oct 2006)

Megan said:


> I am sure your Dad has some rights (no matter how bad he has being to you Mum) as to what happens to his home.


Yes. Assuming that the couple are married then the  would normally prevent the family home from being sold without the express consent of both spouses.


----------



## HelpASAP (2 Oct 2006)

My Dad has agreed to sell the house. One thing he does recognise is that the situation is desperate so no problem selling the house 50/50. His problem is he cannot do anything. We have been to different doctors. I just dont know what to do????????


----------



## ClubMan (2 Oct 2006)

HelpASAP said:


> My Dad has agreed to sell the house.


Would an independent adjudicator agree that he has the capacity to make such a decision at this point in time?


----------



## liteweight (2 Oct 2006)

Have you had a look at the Oasis site? Have you checked with Social Welfare to see if he's entitled to anything? See what your mother might be entitled to alone. With all the will/heart in the world, you may not be able to help your mother out on an ongoing basis. It's not fair to you and any future partner you might have.


----------



## dontaskme (3 Oct 2006)

HelpASAP said:


> His Parents are still alive in Cork,He will have to go live with them. My mam and the rest of us are sick of him to a certain extent.although I do still love him but This post will be deleted if not edited immediately he makes it incredibly hard. I am a financial consultant myself but This post will be deleted if not edited immediately I have never came across this. I can advise my mam on various pension plans(well the house I buy in 10 years is her pension plan). and the bonds to invest in but Am i doing the right thing by saying we have to seel the house?


 
Yes, that's fine.

You should also advise them to divorce because, otherwise, if, Heaven forbid, anything happened your mam, and she had no will, your father could inherit her share of the proceeds from the house sale.


----------



## triplex (3 Oct 2006)

I'm really sorry to hear of this situation - i feel desparately sorry for your mum and admire your dedication to helping her. I know someone who behaves like your dad, and it gets to the stage where they just become a leech on everyone else - sometimes you just have to cut them loose for you own sanity and protection, even though it hurts to do so very much. 

Re Social Welfare - you can write to your local office and someone will call out to your house and speak with your dad and your family directly regarding what he is entitled to. Your mum should write to revenue outlining the same information to see his prsi entitlements etc - they will deal with her as she is his spouse, though probably not with you. 

I think it's a good idea for your dad to live with someone else - it might give him the shake up he needs as your mum won't be there to pander to his every (probably) self indulgent need. 

Also, you are very young to shoulder this alone. Do try and talk it over with someone older. 

good luck!


----------



## nelly (3 Oct 2006)

Hang on here why do you you feel that you have a moral obligation to your mother but not your grandparents who you want to lumber wiht a chronic depressive in your twilight years? Just because they are alive does not mean they will be any more able to cope. Sorry to block the "only way out" but i feel you are trying to find a fix, talking your mother into seperation and posting your father off to Cork. 
Also, he has been actually out of work for just 3 months. That is not long.

I seriously would look into them moving down the country to a cheaper house and not looking into renting in their latter years.


----------



## PMU (3 Oct 2006)

You should not rush into selling the house. I don’t think your maths work out and you haven’t allowed for inflation. Also you assume that your mum will live for about another 14 years. Life expectancy today for women is in the lower 80s, so you need to budget for at least 30 years. The 170k won’t last that long. Also if your mother, e.g. became incapacitated, needed home care or you yourself became unable to look after her, her situation would be rather bleak. I suggest you consider selling the house only as a last resort. Also, it’s your inheritance so you shouldn’t dispose of it unless absolutely necessary. 
You need to sort out your father’s social welfare entitlements. You say: “_We have asked the nurse to chase this up which she is doing but we cant wait for him and cant live with him just claiming welfare_”. There are two issues her. First of all it is not the nurse’s responsibility to sort out your dad’s welfare entitlements. You need to do this, e.g. by speaking the community welfare officer, or social welfare. You should also tear up his credit cards. If you cannot face the task of confirming your father’s entitlements is there an uncle or aunt or some other family member who can do this for you? As to: ‘_cant live with him just claiming welfare’_, I suggest you leave all value judgements and decisions such as this out of the equation until the finances are sorted out. If your dad is entitled to socail welfare the situation may not be that desperate (financially). 
You should discuss with his parents the possibility of them giving you a short term loan to tide your family over this immediate crisis. It would be better if they did this rather than have your father dumped on them (which I don’t think would be a good idea). 
You really need advice from an older person you know and trust, ideally 
a relative, as you are too young to carry this problem yourself.


----------



## HelpASAP (3 Oct 2006)

In responce,

I dont really care where my Dad goes at this stage,if he goes to his parents well then fine but they have known about his condition for years now and not helped in 1 little way so he can live in a ditch but he isnt living with us anymore. He has had countless chances,time is up,goodluck to him.He has ruined all our lives for years,no more,he can ruin his own but aint ruinin mine or my mams.

Oh I forgot to mention sat down again last night with the family,My dad wants to go into Hospital,lads trust me they wont admit him because he wont co operate with whatever they ask him to do,this is a man who thinks he is always right and that it is always someone elses fault


----------



## ClubMan (3 Oct 2006)

Is it possibly that a section order committing your father to psychiatric care might be an option in this situation? Of course this being a medical matter it should be discussed with the medical experts. I say this not as an option to get him out of the way but in case it might be the most beneficial alternative for all concerned.


----------



## Diziet (4 Oct 2006)

HelpASAP said:


> In responce,
> 
> Oh I forgot to mention sat down again last night with the family,My dad wants to go into Hospital,lads trust me they wont admit him because he wont co operate with whatever they ask him to do,this is a man who thinks he is always right and that it is always someone elses fault


 
If his GP refers him to hospital they will admit him. Psychatric hospitals have a lot more experience in dealing with mental health issues than you give them credit for. They will also provide help in sorting out welfare entitlements, if you ask the hospital social worker to be involved. 

I appreciate your feelings of frustration, but depression is an illness. Selling the house and dumping him on his elderly parents probably won't solve your problem, but getting help in place for him (both financial from benefit entitlements and medical) will help. Then if your parents go their separate ways, so be it.

Also, you will not be able to fix this all by yourself. Do ask for help, but do not expect your dad to do anything. Until he recovers from the mire he is in, you will always be disappointed.

The thing is, it is impossible to offer financial advice in this situation as it is so tied in with mental health issues. Mental health care in Ireland is not of a high standard, but some services do exist, so try to get your dad access to them. Then let the professionals help.


----------



## Gordanus (5 Oct 2006)

1. Get social welfare to help you with the forms.  Bring them home for your dad to sign, and take them back in yourself.
2 Go see the psychiatric social worker once your da is under the care of a psychiatrist.  They can sort a lot of things out, including residential care if he neeeds it when he is discharged from hospital.
3 Look after yourself and your sister.  You do sound awfully stressed.
I wish you the best of luck with this awful situation.


----------



## ClubMan (5 Oct 2006)

HelpASAP said:


> what he did instead was work for the civil service and hated it so much he rang in sick every week,I dont know how he didnt get sacked.


So what did happen? Did he quit or something?


----------



## lff12 (6 Oct 2006)

HelpASAP said:


> My mam has been living through this hell for years now and enough is enough,we sat down the other night as a family and asked and pleaded with my Dad to get help or then we will have to seel the house, he said he cant get help,Im not being selfish for my Mam here but this Man has had a million chances and he has been so selfish over the last few years,now he has made himself ill,and make no mistake about it,it is his fault he is ill. My Mam has no money,she keeps saying she is leaving him and has done for the last few years but didnt cause of guilt. Now I am stepping in,If I dont my Dad has threatened to kill himself plenty of times and If I dont step in now it could kill my Mam with stress. Your right in saying it isnt my decision but I am not willing to stand by and watch my Dad kill himself and ultimately end up killing my Mam with stress and worry. Like at the moment pure and simple my Mams life is a misery and has been for years because of him.


 
I really have to sympathise with you here as my parents have been through a similar position, except when my Dad's business failed he had 14k of debts outstanding on top of his mortgage (he had remortgaged to the hilt) not even counting a 5k VAT bill from 5 years ago thats still outstanding, but he naively believes that because the Revenue haven't come back to him since they came out to him about a year ago they've "forgotten" it (wrong wrong and wrong!).  Like your mum, my own mother has been through the mill with his not paying bills on time and then finding out that the phone was cut off.

Men of that age grew up in an age where it was considered au fair to be totally selfish and to expect the women in their lives to kneel down and pray to them, and fulfill their every need.  I think you guys have to be very clear with your Dad that this situation is unacceptable, regardless of his health.  My Dad has just had a mild attack (basically as a direct result of years of overeating and zero exercise, plus starting to drink again a couple of years ago), so he's not in a totally different situation except that he loves working and we nearly have to physically stop him going back to work!

What I would suggest is that you consider putting your Dad on disability benefit - if you Mum wasn't working they'd get about 280 a week between them and could get medical card etc.

They shouldn't sell their house - remember its your Mum's home too, unless you really all are set on throwing him out.

I can understand your reluctance to give more money up, I am guessing that your siblings are like my own, and as a result of having to hand up such a lot of money over many years couldn't afford to save enough to buy yourselves.

Would consider putting your Dad on disability for a while and seeing if it helps, however wouldn't be inclined to sell the house since its everybody else's home too.


----------



## RainyDay (6 Oct 2006)

It sounds like your father is suffering from a mental illness such as depression, though of course it is not possible to do any kind of definitive diagnosis via an internet bulletin board. I do hope that if you are ever suffering from a self-destructive mental illness, your nearest & dearest will not turn their back on you. Get him to his GP, and have a good chat with the GP yourself.

I would also suggest that the primary decision maker on decisions about terminating the relationship and/or selling the home needs to be your mother, not you.


----------



## ClubMan (6 Oct 2006)

RainyDay said:


> It sounds like your father is suffering from a mental illness such as depression


Yes - see the original post.


----------



## jessie2 (12 Nov 2006)

Hi there
I'm not going to read all replies......
What you are suggesting here is that you parents seperate.
Do You think your father is severely depressed. If so you should do your best to get him care - have you tried getting him into hospital again for
proper evalaution. This, in my opinion is the 'Help for All my Family' that you may need. I know you have tried, sectioning is not nice, but may be an option
Does your father not claim social welfare?? If he is in hospital he could be on Social welfare sick pay - and then perhaps move to disability. That would be some extra income, albeit small.
Perhaps the money you gave to your mum would be better spent on this.
Sorry - what does your mother want from all this - you seem to be talking the rein, but these should be her decisions. This talk of an investment property, seems more for you.
Are you still living in the family home? You cannot just think that somebody else should be lumped with him.

If the whole situation is a tolerable as you say then get your mum to file for divorce - who know she may get more of a share to the home etc.  
Has he racked up many debts??
Sorry, you can't make these decisions, & if you don't like the answers is because you don't really say whether you mum wants to really go or not.
Don't 'advise' her into something she may not be 100% on - sure then you are just as bad as your father's generation that you talk about.

You say your father wants to go into hospital but they won't admit him. What does this mean, is he drunk, will he not sign himself in?? He would need to something awful for a Physichiatric hopital not to take him.

With a proper assesment you will have a better standing. I will have to co-sign agreements etc I would imagine. Solicitor may not allow this unless his state of health improves. 
(P.S.) Try & get support of older relative etc. aunts/uncle. I know by your post that you blame him for your mum's situation, you also need to deal with this to clear yourhead & make better decisions.
Hope you have made progress in past month. You can't make any financial decisions till you deal with these issues.


----------



## pat127 (12 Nov 2006)

I'm very sorry to hear about your circumstances, HelpASAP. It's good to see that you are receiving so many helpful suggestions from the Forum.
Your Father, specifically his condition, is the basic problem here and resolving it is IMO the only solution that will take care of everyone's needs long-term.

I hate to have to use a term that for many people is highly emotive but naming a problem is often a pre-requisite to solving it. Have you faced the fact that he may have a mental illness and if unable to help himself as is often the case in such circumstances, the family, your Mother in particular, may have to consider taking more drastic action? Nothing along these lines can be done without the involvement of his GP so my suggestion is that you meet with that person and consider all the options that are available. To learn more I would like to refer you to [broken link removed] and its Information section. Speaking to them might also be a good idea.

Please accept my best wishes for a swift resolution to your problems.


----------



## mo3art (12 Nov 2006)

I have to say that I agree with Clubman, HelpASAP your father is incapable of making a rational decision with regards to selling the house.  If he can't decide to get out of bed, then he cannot decide to sell a house and understand the consequences.
Going on what you're saying and the manner in which you are putting your argument across I feel that you, your sibling, and your mother are bullying your severely ill father and it is possible that you are contributing to his condition.  By paying all his bills and taking responsibility for his CC bills you taking away any control he would have over the situation.
If you are all sick of him, cannot stand living with him and feel that he has copped out altogether, why don't the 3 of you move out and rent elsewhere?  That may give him the momentum to take control of his own life and situation.  He cannot live on nothing so he will have to get out of bed and help himself.  When he is seeing things a bit clearer, then let your mother arrange to meet him at a mediation and they can then discuss the issue of the family home.
If you want to help him, contact www.aware.ie and get to a family meeting where you can understand the impact of depression and how it effects people on a day to day basis, how to help him etc.


----------



## Henny Penny (18 Nov 2006)

I was so sad to read this post HelpASAP. At 22 you should be living your own life ... not burdened by the overwhelming responsibility of your parents! 

I think they probably expect too much of you and by providing money to cover credit cards etc. you are probably only making a bad situation seem better ... instead of forcing them to face up to the situation themselves.

I would suggest you take a step back. You must recognise that your parents are a separate unit within the family ... they are both adults with more life experience than you and they should be treated as such. They need to make hard decisions about their lives, but if I were in your situation I would make sure that it was them who did the deciding. By all means offer support ... but don't talk them into anything they don't want to do. 

Have you considered leaving home? Perhaps you and your sister could get a place together? It might be just the wake up call your parents need. I think perhaps you are too close to the issue to see the whole picture. 

I would never even dream of suggesting that you encourage your mother to separate from your father ... how would you feel if he recovered and they got back together ... would you be blamed for causing the spit in the first place. I would say that you don't give your mother enough credit for being a competant adult ... she should be making her own decisions ... there are plenty of qualified support agencies out there that will assist her.  You should not be burdening this responsibility yourself. 
Good luck, I hope tomorrow will be a brighter day for you all.


----------



## carolspinney (18 Nov 2006)

Dear HelpASAP, several people have given some very sound advice to you, I am however not certain that you yourself are likley to listen to any of it.

For what it's worth.

1. Your Father is clearly suffering from severe depression.
2. Your Father is in need of caring and professional help.
3. The last thing your Father needs is you taking control of anything unless you want to propel him into suicide.
4. Your Father looked after you when you were unable to look after yourself, your Father is unable to look after himself because he is suffering from depression.
5. You are approaching this situation from a purely financial perspective, you, your Mother and anyone else truly interested in your Father's welfare need to take a serious look in the mirror, when you've done that go and find out something about the symptoms of depression before your Father dies from it.

Please start here [broken link removed]


----------



## carolspinney (18 Nov 2006)

HelpASAP said:


> In responce,
> 
> I dont really care where my Dad goes at this stage,if he goes to his parents well then fine but they have known about his condition for years now and not helped in 1 little way so he can live in a ditch but he isnt living with us anymore. He has had countless chances,time is up,goodluck to him.He has ruined all our lives for years,no more,he can ruin his own but aint ruinin mine or my mams.
> 
> Oh I forgot to mention sat down again last night with the family,My dad wants to go into Hospital,lads trust me they wont admit him because he wont co operate with whatever they ask him to do,this is a man who thinks he is always right and that it is always someone elses fault


----------



## levelpar (18 Nov 2006)

To helpasap,  The way you have written about your father is, frankly, shocking. Cant you see how the man has reached bottom. Your posts are very one-sided. Its mam,mam,mam. Your father and mother once loved each other and this you would not know about. Both of them reared you and your sister ,cared for and educated, clothed, did Santa at Christmas and all the little things that parents do for their children.  Now that the man has lost hope , has no self esteem, has to endure you and probably your sister ( his children) finally tear him asunder ,you are ready to dispose of him.  



> so he can live in a ditch but he isnt living with us anymore. He has had countless chances,time is up,goodluck to him.He has ruined all our lives for years,no more,he can ruin his own but aint ruinin mine or my mams.


----------



## carolspinney (18 Nov 2006)

Well said Levelpar, I hope his Father can find a way to a hospital or some form of sanctuary, it's pretty obvious he's not going to find it with his own flesh and blood, this is not unusual in situations such as this.


----------



## lizabeth (18 Nov 2006)

My thoughts exactly Clubman - if he is unable emotionally, physically, mentally or otherwise to earn a living, or claim his soc welfare entitlements and consequently putting family and family home at risk - is this a "cant" type behaviour through illness? If so, then if he is agreeing to sell family home, how can he be able to make this decision? 

To me, this doesnt seem to be a "wont" type of behaviour but rather "cant" through some form of depressive illness, which unfortunately, I dont believe can be properly diagnosed by either GP or nurse.

I am speaking here, as the eldest sibling in my family where my dad was severely injured -brain injury- 2 yrs ago, young parents like you, and because my dad had a recognised and diagnosed disability/illness, I am at the minute talking to my dad ( difficult as he now has communication disorder) about giving me power of attorney, in the event that he has accident again. This alone is tricky as it is imperative that he is legally able to give instruction. What I am saying is - if your dad is ill, he may legally not be able to give instruction/consent? And who is saying he is ill or not ill - "cant" or "wont"? Be very careful here, is my guidance, in relation to sale of house. Check this legally, in the event that your dad, in 5 yrs time, your dad is well, and comes back to family, bulling that ye sold family residence, when he was ill! Could he sue? Legally, maybe?

Am wondering why bonds for your mum with the 65K. Again, in same boat, in relation to dad ensuring that has enough money to see him out (59yrs old - will never work again, sold business, separated from mum). My opinion is this - in relation to my dad - he is not in a position to gamble his money on stocks, shares, property as is no guarantee! Some bonds included as only capital guranteed! No good if only get back cap in 6 yrs, as then have lost money effectively. So only other option is cash deposit at max rate which is 4% Northern Rock. Is your mum gambling the valuable money she has??? this is just a thought really, your the financial person, Im a joe-soap really. Bottom line for me is - what risk am I willing to take on someone else's money - none. Also, for you, what if you make wrong decision, on bonds - will your mum accept it. Afterall, there are NO guarantees. 

If you feel your dad is "ill", like my dad, I think you can apply for soc welf like dis ben/all on his behalf - get the forms, apply and write a note accompanying. I did so and then on assessment had to sign document saying that I was acting on his behalf and all correspondence went through me. But, his illness had to be certified. No prob. there.

I wish you the best, really do, such a load on your shoulders, at 22. I was in v.similar spot with parents too at 22. I learned a hard lesson:

1. you cant protect your parents, you can only support them. they are grown ups. one of my parents, the victim parent, used me as a "football" and until I saw it - 5 yrs later- that parent couldnt help themselves. Not until I stepped back, then it left room for that parent to sort out prob. (note prob was impossible, something like yours).

2. I got stuck in middle of problems, thought Id fixed it, but didnt (coz only parents could as they owned the problem, not me) - did think Id sorted it at the time - when things went belly up - i was to blame. Feck that!!!

Good luck, helpasap.


----------



## annR (20 Nov 2006)

carolspinney said:


> Well said Levelpar, I hope his Father can find a way to a hospital or some form of sanctuary, it's pretty obvious he's not going to find it with his own flesh and blood, this is not unusual in situations such as this.


 
I'm going to stick up for the OP here and say, well you and Levelpar obviously haven't found yourself in the situation where, ill or not, someone is destroying your life and your family's life.  Sometimes the live or die instinct kicks in.
I do however agree that the man should be committed to a home or something.  He's ill and his family aren't in a position to look after him by the sounds of it.  Calling them heartless etc is completely heartless IMO.


----------



## liteweight (20 Nov 2006)

annR said:


> I'm going to stick up for the OP here and say, well you and Levelpar obviously haven't found yourself in the situation where, ill or not, someone is destroying your life and your family's life.  Sometimes the live or die instinct kicks in.
> I do however agree that the man should be committed to a home or something.  He's ill and his family aren't in a position to look after him by the sounds of it.  Calling them heartless etc is completely heartless IMO.



Absolutely agree. Any update HelpAsAp??


----------



## bearishbull (24 Nov 2006)

I think your being too hard on your father. Why doesnt your mother work full time? You seem to be blaming your father for the effects his illness is having. He has worked for 30 years to support his family , he deserves more. You may think he is making your lives hard but his life is infinetely harder/more painfull at present. How does him being at home in bed all the time make your life miserable?? Leave him in bed untill he will go to hospital or get him sectioned. I have experience of a similar situation.


----------

