# What info can we get from a smart meter



## aamstudent (23 May 2022)

Hi,
we had a smart meter installed in the second week of April.
The installer told me that with the smart meter we could get detailed info on when and how we were using our electricity.
I looked up Energia's website and it says the same as does the CRU website.
here https://www.cru.ie/home/smart-meters/     and  here https://www.energia.ie/smart-meter-upgrade.

They did say that it could take up to 30 days for this information to flow through to our provider, Energia.

After almost 40 days, nothing was showing up so we rang Energia who told us that this info is only available to people on a smart meter.
This doesn't make sense to me. Its not what they said on their websites.

We should be getting information "allowing you to manage your electricity consumption and make more informed choices."
There seems to be very little benefit to use of having a smart meter other than eliminating estimated readings.
They told us that if we want info we can go out to the meter and record it manually.

Is this just Energia or are all providers doing the same.

Given the ESB Networks are a body that fall within the remit of FOI, surely we should have access to that information anyway.

TIA


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## Savvy (23 May 2022)

We have had ours for over 2 years now and the only thing it does is make the meter reading available to the electricity provider.
There website does say this the below:


> Each day, normally around midnight and via a secure 2G mobile network, your meter will send ESB Networks the total amount of electricity consumed over the previous 24 hour period. This reading will be used to provide information to support customer billing, customers switching suppliers and moving premises.
> 
> *The meter will also record a more detailed breakdown of the electricity consumed in up to 30 minute periods. However, this information will only leave your home if you request this Energia* or if you're not an Energia customer, through your own supplier.



So it would seem that a call to Energia should allow them to set this up for you.


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## mathepac (23 May 2022)

The reality is that smart meters help the energy providers improve their cash flow by not having to issue estimated bills.  As I've said many times it provides consumers with questionable if any benefits, with the so-called benefits being marketing hype.

More consumer deception and misinformation.


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## sharkattack (23 May 2022)

I think you also have to sign up to one of the smart meter plans...but be careful what you sign up for as you cannot come off a smart plan


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## aamstudent (23 May 2022)

@Savvy Thanks for the reply.
Where on the Energia website did you see that because they said to me that I only get that if I have a smart tariff.

Thanks to the other replies also.


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## Sue Ellen (23 May 2022)

aamstudent said:


> Where on the Energia website did you see that because they said to me that I only get that if I have a smart tariff.





We receive detailed info from Electric Ireland by e-mail on this type of stuff.


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## lff12 (7 Jun 2022)

mathepac said:


> The reality is that smart meters help the energy providers improve their cash flow by not having to issue estimated bills.  As I've said many times it provides consumers with questionable if any benefits, with the so-called benefits being marketing hype.
> 
> More consumer deception and misinformation.


To be fair having accurate bills is the antithesis of consumer deception. One of my biggest gripes with the industry is the infrequency of meter readings, esp where the meter isn't easily accessible and the consumer would have difficulty reading themselves


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## Savvy (8 Jun 2022)

I was delighted to move to Smart meter, expecting to be able to view information on an app or something (Perhaps I'm a bit simple).
But the installer told me that there was no new information available from it

Then I was looking forward to the Smart Tariffs expecting great rates at night for charging the EV or just for regular night rate electricity.
Then when I saw the rates and they seemed to be an absolute joke and the fact that you can't then revert to a non smart meter tariff later put me off them totally.
Now in fairness I've not looked in the last year so perhaps they are better these days but I'm not doing too bad on my 24 hour rate with the large reductions I get.


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## Sunnysoutheast (8 Jun 2022)

Bonkers.ie have a recent (26 Apr) podcast on smart meters:




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						Google Podcasts
					






					podcasts.google.com


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## mathepac (9 Jun 2022)

In fairness, bonkers.ie have a publicity stunt for the ESB/Electric Ireland about smart meters, which is the same old same old. It adds nothing to the knowledge base.  It's just the same waffle. If bonkers.ie genuinely wanted to inform consumers, why not pick a tech-head who has no dog in the fight, so to speak?

The bottom line is there is zero consumer benefit from smart meters.  There is zero environmental benefit from smart meters.  How long will it take to offset the carbon and other costs of manufacturing and installing the meters, devices which only benefit the manufacturers and the energy companies?


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## Frank (10 Jun 2022)

I asked our provider BGE and was told I can only see info if I move to a smart tarrif

I would like to just see the info first


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## marsaday (10 Jun 2022)

mathepac said:


> In fairness, bonkers.ie have a publicity stunt for the ESB/Electric Ireland about smart meters, which is the same old same old. It adds nothing to the knowledge base.  It's just the same waffle. If bonkers.ie genuinely wanted to inform consumers, why not pick a tech-head who has no dog in the fight, so to speak?
> 
> The bottom line is there is zero consumer benefit from smart meters.  There is zero environmental benefit from smart meters.  How long will it take to offset the carbon and other costs of manufacturing and installing the meters, devices which only benefit the manufacturers and the energy companies?


Totally agree. As for the bonkers.ie podcast on smart meters , that's 32 minutes of my life I want back . Smart meters give you NO information whatsoever and if you sign up blindly to a smart tariff , apparantly you can never go back. What a scam .


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## bstop (10 Jun 2022)

I got a smart meter installed recently so l had a look at the great new smart plans. You would need a computer program to calculate if you could make savings on any of these plans. The unit charges are increased for the peak periods and the standing charges are also increased. Any savings made during the off peak periods would have to be offset against the extra peak charges and extra standing charges. As for the free electricity on Saturday or Sunday you would not be able to go out on those days as you would need to spend the day doing the weeks baking, laundry and dishwashing to make use of the free electricity. If you went on holiday at a weekend you would end up paying for expensive electricity the next week to do the laundry and dishwashing.


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## peemac (2 Jul 2022)

every month I get an email from Electric Ireland called "Your Latest Energy Insights". It gives some information on current usage and trend and a link to my account.

On my account there's a tab called "insights" and I can see my exact usage by the hour combined with what the outside temperature was that hour and the cost per hour/day.

My average daily cost is €1.60, but last Monday it was €2.80 - I worked from home that day and did a little more housework than normal (herself was returning home the next day  - Ironing saw a jump to 30c of usage between 9pm & 10pm)

If I remember correctly I had to tick a box to get the insights, but it is very detailed and will also give you comparisons with similar homes.


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## mathepac (2 Jul 2022)

Would it be worthwhile making a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority on the grounds that the benefits being touted in the ads for having smart meters installed cannot accrue to the consumer unless s/he takes other unspecified steps?

In the show biz world, the equivalent of smart meter advertisements are the Diana Ross concert ads currently running on the wireless vs. her appearance at Glastonbury.  The years seem to have robbed her of her ability to sing in key, but the ads are based around old recordings which don't inform the consumer about what they'll hear on the night.


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Jul 2022)

Am I missing something here?

The smart meters seem to have advantages for the consumer over non-smart meters.

1) You get accurate bills which is much better for the consumer than estimated bills.
2) You can get detailed information if you apply for it.  This will help you to understand your use and optimise it.
3) The supplier has lower costs because they don't have people walking the streets reading old meters.  That should, in time, help bring down the cost of electricity.

So what is the problem?

That the billing system is hard to understand?  The ordinary billing system is hard to understand, so that is not a disadvantage of smart meters.

That if you opt for a smart tariff, you cannot go  backwards to an old tariff.  Is there any advantage of an old tariff over a smart tariff? There doesn't appear to be, so it's not unreasonable to ask people to stay on the new tariff.

Are people associating the rise in electricity costs with the introduction of smart meters and getting cranky as a result?  But the costs are rising for people who don't have smart meters.

Brendan


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## FANTANA (2 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Am I missing something here?
> 
> The smart meters seem to have advantages for the consumer over non-smart meters.
> 
> ...


The main reason? Cost!! For people with an EV a good old fashioned day night meter is far superior. Half price electricity for 9 hours over night with an EV beats the smart plans hands down, a few smart plugs for dishwasher and tumble dryer and you are looking at 60% shift to night rate without much effort.

If you want insights get an owl monitor and keep the old D/N best of both worlds.

Want accurate bills? Set a reminder once every two months in the calendar and submit your readings.


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## mathepac (2 Jul 2022)

1) I can calculate accurate-up-to-the-second electricity consumption figures and invoices faster than my supplier can get them to me, even with a smart meter.  I'll correct that, faster and more accurately than anyone's supplier can do it.

Is this accuracy of which you speak due to the wear on an electro-mechanical device like the old meter?  If so, how does the accuracy change over time; by how much in percentage terms?  Does it over or under-read?  Who has published any data on the degree of alleged inaccuracy in electro-mechanical meters?

Me 1, So-called smart meter, Nil

2) That would not appear to be the case, based on comments in the thread.  Posters have applied but no extra information is forthcoming

Me 1, So-called smart meter, Nil

3) Suppliers have had in excess of 2 years with no meter-readers either walking the streets or reading meters.  (One may pay better than the other!) If they have laid off the meter-readers, they would seem to have pocketed the savings.  Again!

Me 1, So-called smart meter, Nil

3-Nil to Me.  That's a pretty comprehensive trouncing

The problem for me is I disliked being misled, played for a fool or lied to by any supplier who touts non-existant benefits for me when all they ever do is line their own pockets.

The billing system per se is not difficult to understand. You burn their product, you pay for it at the pre-published rate(s) which show on your invoices. 

One thing that is very, very difficult to understand is why I haven't had a bill since March 16th last. Another thing that's difficult to understand is why the so-called service charges have increased at such an alarming rate.  The services associated with invoicing a more expensive product are now higher.  Why and BTW, what's this PSO levy all about? Is this to pay the ridiculously inflated wages paid to public servants generally and EI/ESB in particular?


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## Groucho (2 Jul 2022)

Supplementary question:  I was recently informed that, if I want to sell surplus electricity to my supplier (I'm planning to install pv panels) then I must have a smart meter.    Reading the foregoing:  it looks as though getting one may cost me more than I will save?


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## peemac (2 Jul 2022)

Seems it's automatically on your electric Ireland account, no box tick required.

For energia it's via their energy online app 






						Energia launch new Energy Online App
					






					energiagroup.com


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## bstop (3 Jul 2022)

You might need to keep a check on your smart meter.





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						The Times & The Sunday Times
					

News and opinion from The Times & The Sunday Times




					www.thetimes.co.uk


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## Groucho (3 Jul 2022)

The report reads as though the smart meter was correct, but the Octopus display that came with it was completely misleading.  

Are Irish smart meters provided with an Octopus display does anyone know? 

Report should probably should be linked to this recent thread:-





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						What info can we get from a smart meter
					

Hi, we had a smart meter installed in the second week of April. The installer told me that with the smart meter we could get detailed info on when and how we were using our electricity. I looked up Energia's website and it says the same as does the CRU website. here...



					www.askaboutmoney.com


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## Paul O Mahoney (3 Jul 2022)

According to BGE and Electric Ireland on their current offerings they will monitor your usage over a 24hr/7 basis and suggest what other "tarriffs" might be applicable to you.

Which is fine but looking at the present offerings by way of "Smart Plans" from everyone I found it incredibly difficult to work out if we'd save anything. 

Went for Electricity Ireland dual , before the announcement of increases , @22% discount and allowed them to access my usage over the coming 12 months and allow them to "suggest " other tariffs in the future. 

Personally I think Smart Meters are great but I wonder if they will save you anything for example all tariffs are huge between 5 and 7 pm, but 60%  to 70% cheaper at 4am


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## Groucho (5 Jul 2022)

I hope that it's OK to post a link to this commercial website which provides lots of interesting information about Smart meters; but if not, apologies in advance.     (I'm reporting this post so the Mods can check it) 









						Smart Meters in Ireland: Everything You Need To Know
					

Need more information about smart meters in Ireland? Read out complete smart meter guide to the ESB smart meter problems and installations!




					selectra.ie


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## Leo (5 Jul 2022)

Groucho said:


> I hope that it's OK to post a link to this commercial website which provides lots of interesting information about Smart meters; but if not, apologies in advance.     (I'm reporting this post so the Mods can check it)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All good Groucho.


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## mathepac (5 Jul 2022)

I don't agree @Leo. Can we find some outfit that doesn't have a dog in the fight and that can provide -up-to-date information? Their LPG article is at least two years old and doesn't seem to reflect current installation costs or the recent, massive increases in LPG prices.

The bolding below is mine.

 From the website in question:

_"The services and products mentioned on this website may only represent a small selection of the options available to you. Selectra encourages you to carry out your own research and seek advice if necessary before making any decisions. *We may receive commission* from selected partner providers *on sales of some products and/or services mentioned within this website*. Our website is free to use, and the commission we receive does not affect our opinion or the information we provide."_


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## Leo (5 Jul 2022)

mathepac said:


> I don't agree @Leo. Can we find some outfit that doesn't have a dog in the fight and that can provide -up-to-date information?


You are free to suggest an alternative source, I was just confirming there was no issue with Groucho sharing that link.

Many websites use such affiliate links to provide a modest income to offset the running costs. The return is very small, and not in any way worth compromising the integrity of a site for.


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## mathepac (5 Jul 2022)

But there is a problem; it's a commercial.  That's my issue with it, it's advertising to encourage the use of the services listed in the web-site for potential gain.  Therefore it's a problem

If and it's a big if, I find a comparison site that isn't advertising, I'll certainly post a link, but so far none of the sites I've seen meet that criterion.


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## Leo (5 Jul 2022)

mathepac said:


> Therefore it's a problem


It may be for you, but it is not in contravention of the posting guidelines.


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## mathepac (5 Jul 2022)

How is it that some commercials, like the one linked to above are deemed within the posting guidelines and and others contravene them?  What are the differences? I'm asking so as to be enlightened about the issue and to avoid contravening the guidelines and posting stuff that needs moderator intervention.

Thanks.


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## Groucho (5 Jul 2022)

mathepac said:


> If and it's a big if, I find a comparison site that isn't advertising, I'll certainly post a link, but so far none of the sites I've seen meet that criterion.



So you'd prefer that those interested in the subject remained ignorant?  What a strange stance to adopt.

I'm in a situation where I may have to install a "smart" meter and I'm trying to find out as much as I can about them first.  I'm sure that there are others in the same situation.


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## elcato (5 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> That if you opt for a smart tariff, you cannot go backwards to an old tariff. Is there any advantage of an old tariff over a smart tariff? There doesn't appear to be, so it's not unreasonable to ask people to stay on the new tariff.


Hmm.... This worries me. So I'm on the old traditional nightsaver e.g. 1/2 price between 11pm and 8am. With the new tarriffs there could be all sorts of different prices at any time of the day and I can't go back to my original ? I wouldn't be trusting a company that sells me stuff for profit to tell me which is my cheapest deal to be honest.


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## mathepac (5 Jul 2022)

Groucho said:


> So you'd prefer that those interested in the subject remained ignorant? What a strange stance to adopt.



No, I'd prefer that straightforward advertising didn't appear as information-giving sources with no commercial slant. If viewers of that site missed the commercial slant it's hardly my fault. People generally don't like when sacred cows turn out to be simply low quality burger meat. Shudda gone to Specsavers maybe.


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## Groucho (5 Jul 2022)

mathepac said:


> No, I'd prefer that straightforward advertising didn't appear as information-giving sources with no commercial slant. If viewers of that site missed the commercial slant it's hardly my fault. People generally don't like when sacred cows turn out to be simply low quality burger meat. Shudda gone to Specsavers maybe.



The information regarding smart meters at the link that I provided is both objective and factual.   Hence your argument seems somewhat spurious.


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## mathepac (5 Jul 2022)

On what basis do you claim it is objective? Where there may be a benefit accruing to the publisher from carrying information about or reviewing a product or service, objectivity is gone.  All commentary must then be viewed as subjective.  That web-site in fairness makes this clear by stating clearly they may get paid for products or services they write about. You cannot claim objectivity on their behalf when they themselves say the polar opposite.

Some car reviewers in newspapers, websites and magazines put  this subjectivity to bed by saying, in precis, "Maker X provided us with a car for our reviewer's use.  This formed the basis of this review. We paid for our own fuel, travel  and other out of pocket expenses."


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## fidelcastro (5 Jul 2022)

Groucho said:


> The report reads as though the smart meter was correct, but the Octopus display that came with it was completely misleading.
> 
> Are Irish smart meters provided with an Octopus display does anyone know?
> 
> ...


Not the smart meter I have. It's pretty dull piece of kit, black led display with kwh displayed, that is it. Seems cheap!


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## Groucho (5 Jul 2022)

mathepac said:


> On what basis do you claim it is objective? Where there may be a benefit accruing to the publisher from carrying information about or reviewing a product or service, objectivity is gone.  All commentary must then be viewed as subjective.  That web-site in fairness makes this clear by stating clearly they may get paid for products or services they write about. You cannot claim objectivity on their behalf when they themselves say the polar opposite.
> 
> Some car reviewers in newspapers, websites and magazines put  this subjectivity to bed by saying, in precis, "Maker X provided us with a car for our reviewer's use.  This formed the basis of this review. We paid for our own fuel, travel  and other out of pocket expenses."



You're just posting nonsensical whataboutery now.    I'm out.


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## Leo (6 Jul 2022)

mathepac said:


> How is it that some commercials, like the one linked to above are deemed within the posting guidelines and and others contravene them? What are the differences? I'm asking so as to be enlightened about the issue and to avoid contravening the guidelines and posting stuff that needs moderator intervention.


It's really very simple, with a small number of exceptions, we do not allow people to advertise their own services or products. 

We do allow people to post links to commercial websites, you have posted many such links yourself. All commercial websites contain advertising, that is their primary purpose. Just because they do so does not mean that they do not contain any information of value here.


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## Leo (6 Jul 2022)

mathepac said:


> Some car reviewers in newspapers, websites and magazines put this subjectivity to bed by saying, in precis, "Maker X provided us with a car for our reviewer's use. This formed the basis of this review. We paid for our own fuel, travel and other out of pocket expenses."


Welcome to the '90s. The vast majority of reviews in print or online media are supported by the loaning or gifting of products to the reviewers. AAM is in a small minority of sites that do not seek advertising or referral income.


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## mathepac (6 Jul 2022)

Leo said:


> AAM is in a small minority of sites that do not seek advertising or referral income.


This post is missing the point entirely of course as my complaint is not about AAM, but the self-confessed money-making website linked to in this thread  being promoted as a so-called objective review site. The post misses the point of my issue with the promotion of the site as objective.  Posts like the one quoted above are beginning to verge on repeated, unacceptable behaviour.


Leo said:


> We do allow people to post links to commercial websites,


Another post missing the point by referring to my posting of links in threads unrelated to this one to clearly identified commercial sites that have never been promoted by me as being  anything other than exactly what they are.


Leo said:


> The vast majority of reviews in print or online media are supported by the loaning or gifting of products to the reviewers.



That's a ridiculous argument as it's kinda difficult to review a product of which the reviewer has no hands-on experience. My point was about reviewers who don't accept gratuities or gifts from manufacturers and who pay their own way to gain first-hand product experience and who publish that fact. In this context the point of the immediately preceding quote escapes me

To misquote Mr Shakespeare, "The poster-moderator doth protest too much, methinks".  Maybe it's time to move on and enjoy the beautiful sunny weather.  I've made my point about the lack of objectivity of the site in question, as is openly admitted to by the owners.  The "reasonable person" beloved of the Rumpoles of this world could or would accept that matter of fact and let it lie, akin to the much-maligned and perhaps even mythical sleeping dog.

[EDIT] a couple of typos corrected, no additions or other alterations.


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## bstop (6 Jul 2022)

*Not fail-proof* - Some smart meter customers in the UK have also reported issues with faulty meters contributing to an increase in their bills.
This is the most interesting line in the disputed link as far as I am concerned.
Electronics are great when they work but are subject to software glitches and errors caused by electrical fields or radio interference. 

How reliable will a ten or twenty year old smart meter be?

I would have more confidence in a twenty year old spinning disc meter than an electronic meter of similar age. 

What is the plan to update and replace these smart meters in the future. 
Will it be every five, ten, twenty years.......


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## Leo (6 Jul 2022)

mathepac said:


> This post is missing the point entirely of course as my complaint is not about AAM,


Hold on, I said that Groucho's post was fine here because it didn't break any rules. Your objection seems to be that a commercial website is run on a commercial basis. If you have issues with that site or the advice they offer, perhaps you should take it up with them. 



mathepac said:


> The post misses the point of my issue with the promotion of the site as objective. Posts like the one quoted above are beginning to verge on repeated, unacceptable behaviour.


If you find them unacceptable, you should perhaps give AAM a miss.


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## sadie (6 Aug 2022)

It seems to be the case that if you are an Electric Ireland customer you can get detailed information on usage across appliances etc via a smart meter plan.
But if you are with Energia or another provider, you cannot get this information. Have I got that right?


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## Leo (8 Aug 2022)

sadie said:


> you can get detailed information on usage across appliances


No supplier can tell you what appliances are using, they will just see total usage. 

You can buy small energy monitors that you can monitor individual appliances with of that is really of interest.


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## tinymouse (17 Aug 2022)

Why does all the smart meter advertising show a charts with "Television", "Washing machine" etc? I don't see how on earth that's even possible. As far as I'm aware there's not even the option for the meter to communicate via wifi, bluetooth or anything. Literally the only thing smart about it, is that it sends a one way signal via SMS to tell your current meter reading. 
Here's an example: https://www.electricireland.ie/smart-meters/home-electric-plus


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## mathepac (17 Aug 2022)

I've been beating this drum for ages and I've noticed the ads have changed to include what you can get  "with an appropriate smart meter plan". That wording never featured in the original ads and now that I have my own smart meter installed, I can state categorically that both @Leo and @tinymouse are correct. These so-called smart meters are pretty dumb apart from sending a few numbers to the mother-ship periodically.

If anyone is interested in doing a bit of experimentation with dumb meter readings, have a look at this little spreadsheet
https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threa...ulating-electricity-bills.168218/post-1783683

mathepac


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## vandriver (18 Aug 2022)

I got my new electric bill today with my shiny new smart meter.
IT WAS ESTIMATED!!!


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## SPC100 (18 Aug 2022)

I suspect they will use AI and maybe a questionaire to help them predict which appliances are being used. E.g. a 300w power increase that regularly starts between 3-9pm and dissapears between 10pm and 3am is most likely a television.

A 2-10kwh load that runs regularly at night for hours and steps down before it finishes, and occasionally is seen at day time is probably an ev.

A solid 8 or 9 kWh for y minutes regularly coming on but for a short time is probably an electric shower.

A 3kw for 30mins coming on at the same time every day is probably your immersion.

3kw coming on regularly but only lasting a few minutes is probably your kettle.

Using the electrical consumption signature of devices and their usuage over time can probably get you good results towards identifying devices.


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## Leo (19 Aug 2022)

vandriver said:


> I got my new electric bill today with my shiny new smart meter.
> IT WAS ESTIMATED!!!


Are you on a smart plan?


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## User1970 (19 Aug 2022)

I think it takes a period of testing before the SMART meter reading submitted by the meter becomes operational. I seem to recall getting a text or e-mail about 40 days after installation saying the meter was not live. 

Non-Smart plan so the reading should be utilised irrespective of plan


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## Groucho (31 Aug 2022)

vandriver said:


> I got my new electric bill today with my shiny new smart meter.
> IT WAS ESTIMATED!!!



Same happened to my (90 year old) Mother-in-law today.    

The ONLY reason that she agreed to having a Smart meter installed is so she would stop receiving estimated bills as she was incapable of reading her old meter which was in a high, inaccessible location.     And now it turns out that - from a customer perspective - the squeaky new "smart" meter is every bit as dumb as the old one was.     Someone somewhere (probably in the CER's Office) needs a good kicking for this nonsense.


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## Paul F (4 Sep 2022)

sharkattack said:


> I think you also have to sign up to one of the smart meter plans...but be careful what you sign up for as you cannot come off a smart plan


Does this mean that you can _never_ come off a smart plan?

Or if you are on a smart plan and you switch to another provider, can you pick a non-smart plan again at that point?


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## Sue Ellen (4 Sep 2022)

Paul F said:


> Does this mean that you can _never_ come off a smart plan?
> 
> Or if you are on a smart plan and you switch to another provider, can you pick a non-smart plan again at that point?




@Paul F

Yes you can never come off a smart plan.

Thought the same as you and when I was speaking to Bord Gais about moving from El Irl.   They confirmed that even if I did move I would have to stay on a Smart plan i.e. no going back!  I think they confirm it through the MPRN.


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## Paul F (4 Sep 2022)

Sue Ellen said:


> Yes you can never come off a smart plan.


Thanks. That's a pretty stupid policy. It narrows the customer's choices.


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## Sue Ellen (4 Sep 2022)

Paul F said:


> Thanks. That's a pretty stupid policy. It narrows the customer's choices.



Definitely a stupid policy especially when the Smart plans appear to be dearer.  Talk about getting people's backs up especially at a time when bills are out of control.  I often wonder if before this winter is over people will be out protesting like they were for water meters.  There's nearly a fear element to it rather than annoyance.

I can see where they are coming from in trying to get people to watch their usage on a timed basis but I'm not a fan of running machines at night especially if people set them for when they are asleep.  I feel it is a fire risk.


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## Paul F (4 Sep 2022)

Sue Ellen said:


> Definitely a stupid policy especially when the Smart plans appear to be dearer. I can see where they are coming from in trying to get people to watch their usage on a timed basis


A lot of people will essentially be tricked into switching to smart plans with no way to go back. And the people who realise that smart plans are (currently) dearer will stay away from them, and so the benefits in terms of reduced emissions and lower strain on the grid won't accrue.

The uptake is very low and it seems to be very difficult to quantify the potential savings.








						Just 10% of 750,000 smart meters in use, says consumer watchdog
					

Devices record switch from day to night time electricity, triggering possible savings on bills




					www.irishtimes.com


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## marsaday (5 Sep 2022)

Sue Ellen said:


> Definitely a stupid policy especially when the Smart plans appear to be dearer.  Talk about getting people's backs up especially at a time when bills are out of control.  I often wonder if before this winter is over people will be out protesting like they were for water meters.  There's nearly a fear element to it rather than annoyance.
> 
> I can see where they are coming from in trying to get people to watch their usage on a timed basis but I'm not a fan of running machines at night especially if people set them for when they are asleep.  I feel it is a fire risk.


I agree with your comparison with the water meters , this is far worse actually in my opinion. People must be absolutely burnt out with anger at this stage if they are not protesting  because  this “ smart electricity meter  “  no turning back “ policy is an absolute disgrace and an insult to the average person’s intelligence.


----------



## Groucho (5 Sep 2022)

Laramie said:


> I got my Gas bill today from Electric Ireland.....total for 50 days €30.    This is an estimated bill.   This amount is nowhere near the amounts of any of my previous bills, so where did they get the "estimated" figure from?
> 
> Hang on a sec.  Didn't they announce a large price increase recently.  So, the cost of the gas that I have been really using over the last 50 days will be charged at the higher rate when it is included in my next bill.
> 
> In the current climate has anyone out there had a gas bill for 50 days that cost €30?  (We cook on gas).



But why on earth don't you send in your own readings?       Your meter, your money - so take ownership of it!  






						How to read your gas meter | Electric Ireland Help
					

Click here and find out the best way to read your gas meter




					www.electricireland.ie


----------



## mathepac (5 Sep 2022)

I have to agree. It's the old "I got no reminder for my TV/dog licence, my motor-tax/ car/house insurance, etc" syndrome.


----------



## MrEarl (5 Sep 2022)

Frank said:


> I asked our provider BGE and was told I can only see info if I move to a smart tarrif
> 
> I would like to just see the info first



That seems fundamentally wrong, as it implies that you consent to the installation of the smart meter, the energy supplier gets the info. from it, but won't share it with you, unless you agree to a certain price plan.

Perhaps everyone should be refusing to allow smart meters be installed?

I also think that people should be complaining to Minister Eamon Ryan about this carry on.


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (6 Sep 2022)

If your provider won't supply consumption with you just send them a data access request under GDPR. It is personal data so they can't deny you. It will probably come in CSV format and you would have to analyse in Excel. It's better than nothing.

Otherwise *smart meters are mainly for the benefit of industry and not the consumer*! It gives the retailer (like Electric Ireland) insights into your consumption patterns so they can better tailor their price plans to how you consume, and not for the customers' benefit. For the network operator smart meters are probably a bit less useful as they focus on aggregates rather than households and businesses but I am sure there is useful information in there all the same. The other major benefit is that they don't have to send physical meter readers around to your house or even nearby any more.

Your electricity retailer doesn't have a huge incentive to give you access to your consumption data, as it will only cause you to consume less. There is probably adverse selection here - consumers who are most interested in their consumption patterns are most likely to switch. Personally I think the regulator should mandate some kind of "open access" approach to customer data. Some other provider could - via app - give you real-time access to consumption and you could set it to give you alerts when your usage had gone over a certain threshold for a day or the like. There is no real incentive for your retailer to do this as it stands.

Otherwise it would be nice to get to a point where spot electricity prices are better integrated into price plans. Most household consumption like lighting, cooking, refrigeration, etc, is pretty inflexible. But there is scope to consume when demand is low. I tend to time the dishwasher and tumbledryer to work at about 3am when I know that demand at grid level is lowest. There is some social benefit in doing so as demand is spread more evenly across the day but it would be nice to be able to get a private return on this too. 

When EVs are in every driveway I think at grid level there will have to be some kind of central demand management system too. You plug your EV in at 6pm and your supplier will guarantee it will be charged by 7am the following day, but the sequencing of this across tens of thousands of EV charging points will need to be controlled centrally to smooth demand.


----------



## ThatNewGuy (6 Sep 2022)

Personally I have a smart meter but will be staying away from smart tariffs as long as possible - the industry showed their hand in the last week by suggesting those on smart tariffs would have penalties for electricity use during peak times!! So i.e., "incentives" to change electricity use / demand is easier and more profitable to do so by ratcheting up the cost, rather than applying deep discounts at other times. 

And they'd need to be deep - a measly 10% reduction during the day, or reduction over night isn't going to change anybody's behaviour. I certainly wont be cooking at midnight, nor running my washing machine as a fire risk while we sleep.


----------



## Groucho (6 Sep 2022)

MrEarl said:


> I also think that people should be complaining to Minister Eamon Ryan about this carry on.



I suspect that he'll just forward the complaints to the CRU, who, it should be remembered, are the overpaid, incompetent muppets who allowed this situation to occur in the first place.


----------



## TrundleAlong (6 Sep 2022)

New ESB Meters being installed by KN Group.
					

The ESB are upgrading their meters in my area. They are using a company called KN Group to install these new meters.  I received a couple of letters from them and then a phone call to say that they would like to call to my home and replace meter. They would need to turn off our electricity for...



					www.askaboutmoney.com
				




It would be nice to hear from the various people who were looking forward to having their smart meters installed think about the situation now.

From Protocol.  

"In contrast to you, I am looking forward to smart meters, which are being installed nationwide into every house.

They will allow more sophisticated pricing, e.g. cheaper off-peak rates."

From Zenith63. 

"Also looking forward to getting a smart meter in, to be able to see live usage, get away from the estimated bill nonsense, ability to access new tariffs, pushing people to use some of the wind energy the country wastes many nights etc."


----------



## fidelcastro (6 Sep 2022)

I have a smart meter, but I'm not changing to a per-hour billing scheme unless its financially advantageous for me.

A smart meter is a precision semiconductor integrated circuit measurement instrument of electrical energy,  whereas a spinning magnetic disk from 1970's is not.   Electric vehicles use these circuits, rather than spinning disks to monitor the batteries charge and health for same reason.

I also want my meter read, rather than estimated, in the area I live in the ESB Networks 2G signal works reliably.

So, its the usual , buyer beware; Utility companies or any other companies viz: Oil companies, Telco's are profit making entities, answerable to shareholders, not to the consumer.

And switch provider every 365days, for same reason. Reading that c. 500,000 customers forgo up to 40% discounts on their Elecl & Gas just means more profits for the same corporations, and no amount of hand-wringing or moaning will change this.

F.


----------



## Paul F (6 Sep 2022)

fidelcastro said:


> A smart meter is a precision semiconductor integrated circuit measurement instrument of electrical energy, whereas a spinning magnetic disk from 1970's is not. Electric vehicles use these circuits, rather than spinning disks to monitor the batteries charge and health for same reason.


On the subject of accuracy, has anybody else noticed that their usage (in kWh) decreased quite a lot since having a smart meter installed?

I don't think I changed much else around the same time, so I'm wondering if the smart meter is measuring lower usage than my old meter.


----------



## Frank (9 Sep 2022)

Paul F said:


> On the subject of accuracy, has anybody else noticed that their usage (in kWh) decreased quite a lot since having a smart meter installed?
> 
> I don't think I changed much else around the same time, so I'm wondering if the smart meter is measuring lower usage than my old meter.


probably down to the actual reads. biggest adv of smart meters is there is no estimates, the numbers are transferred automatically to ESB, then to your provider.


----------



## Paul F (9 Sep 2022)

Frank said:


> probably down to the actual reads. biggest adv of smart meters is there is no estimates, the numbers are transferred automatically to ESB, then to your provider.


But I'm talking about long-term averages of usage according to the old meter that are based on an _actual_ reads at the start and the end of the period. That rules out the possibility of estimates skewing the numbers.


----------



## losttheplot (9 Sep 2022)

Paul F said:


> But I'm talking about long-term averages of usage according to the old meter that are based on an _actual_ reads at the start and the end of the period. That rules out the possibility of estimates skewing the numbers.


Old meters were mechanical so I'd imagine they'd lose accuracy over time as parts wear. Unless your old meter was a digital one.


----------



## fme (9 Sep 2022)

I used to have one of these:








						SSE AIRTRICITY USER MANUAL Pdf Download
					

View and Download SSE AIRTRICITY user manual online. SSE AIRTRICITY SMART ENERGY MONITOR. AIRTRICITY microphone pdf manual download. Also for: Airtricity envi.




					www.manualslib.com
				



for monitoring electricity usage real time:
Found it very handy to check for eg when going to bed to make sure all unnecessary stuff was turned off.
This is discontinued, as is the owl/eco-eye monitor and am struggling to find something similar on amazon or elsewhere.
I noticed that in UK all households are given a monitor, and in fact according to several sites such as








						Smart Meters in Ireland: Everything You Need To Know
					

Need more information about smart meters in Ireland? Read out complete smart meter guide to the ESB smart meter problems and installations!




					selectra.ie
				








						Technical Guidelines for in Home Displays | Centre for Excellence in Universal Design
					






					universaldesign.ie
				



everyone here should receive an 'In-Home Display monitor' with their smart meter.
I checked with Electric Ireland and their chat said this is only available for pay as you go:





						Your In Home Monitor | Electric Ireland Help
					

Find out how to monitor your electricity consumption with the In Home Monitor




					www.electricireland.ie
				



Am I the only one to not get one of these monitors ?


----------



## mathepac (13 Sep 2022)

I got my latest ebill from Electric Ireland today, the first since I had my "smart meter" installed. The bill was ESTIMATED and only up to 2-Sept-2022!!  "Real-time billing" is only 11 days late now!! But "the system" is never wrong of course.

Even worse, the bill was for €654.43 for 44 days, the single biggest bill I've ever received for this address since I moved here.

This estimated bill of €654.43 is AFTER they have correctly applied outstanding credits of €263.13 due to me.

They billed me for 1,310 units on the old analogue meter, but the installer and I both took photos of the wheel stopped at 67,946.  Apparently,  while not connected to my electricity supply, it managed to record an extra 900 units in the back of your man's van.  The "smart meter" clocked up an estimated 537 units since installation. This morning the meter reads 200 units used.

I've just done a meter reading and done my sums using our little spreadsheet and "at de enda da day", my actual up-to-the-minute bill is *€99.09CR*.  I'll tell them I'll take a cheque once they report for work!!

I wonder how many poor consumers have been taken for an expensive ride by these incompetents.

In closing, I'll leave you with quotes from their website and my bill:

*"*_*Good news,*_
*Your smart electricity meter with MPRN 99999999999 is now online and working correctly. You can now get free access to electricity insights, detailed usage graphs, monthly billing and lots more*."

*“Your bill is estimated.*
_*To ensure accuracy, 
please supply us with *_
_*a meter reading. “*_


----------



## shweeney (14 Sep 2022)

Paul F said:


> But I'm talking about long-term averages of usage according to the old meter that are based on an _actual_ reads at the start and the end of the period. That rules out the possibility of estimates skewing the numbers.



I had the same issue and there was discussion of it on Boards - consensus seems to be that the old meters are inaccurate and under-read the usage over time. Between that and the poor value offered by the Smart Tariffs, there's not much incentive to switch to a smart meter.


----------



## Paul F (14 Sep 2022)

shweeney said:


> I had the same issue and there was discussion of it on Boards - consensus seems to be that the old meters are inaccurate and under-read the usage over time. Between that and the poor value offered by the Smart Tariffs, there's not much incentive to switch to a smart meter.


But what I'm seeing is a _reduction_ in usage since I got my smart meter. What I can't be of sure of is to what extent that is due to a change in behaviour by me and to what extent it is due to the smart meter (possibly) recording lower usage than the old meter.


----------



## mathepac (14 Sep 2022)

email to Electric Ireland Services today, issued at the request of a Customer Services Supervisor

"I enclose a photograph of my new "smart-meter" showing the current reading of 9999 units consumed as of today's date and time 14/09/2022 @ 16:40 hrs.  The MR [Meter Registration or ID] is clearly visible as is the label showing the date of installation 10/08/2022 and the name of the installer Mx. S. Citizen of TLI, the installation sub-contractors

Also in the photograph is an appointment letter addressed to me from University Hospital Waterford, dated 12/09/2022. This letter includes my date of birth dd/mm/yyyy in the heading as proof of date, time, and identity.

I also enclose a photograph of the old analogue meter immediately prior to being uninstalled by   Mx. S. Citizen of TLI who advised me to take the photo in case of confusion about the works, the meter readings, and follow-up bills. Thank you Mx. S,. Citizen. This shows a reading of 12345 and [it] hasn't turned a wheel since.

Why am I sending you this information? A supervisor in Electric Ireland named O’Citizen advised me to do so because they issued me with an estimated bill, invoice number 123456789, dated dd/mm/yyyy, copy attached.  This bill is wildly out of line with my actual consumption, apparently because the closing reading for the analogue meter was entered into the reading for the "smart meter" in error by someone in Electric Ireland.

Before speaking with O’Citizen, an escalation at my request, a customer contact person named  MacCitizen, told me my new meter was malfunctioning and it needed the attention of a technician.  He went on to say that if no problem was established with the meter I would receive a bill.  The meter is working as far as I am concerned and I don't want anyone calling here.  Maybe MacCitizen might need some training with paying attention and attitude. Oh and as a customer-facing staff member additional training in the key skill of listening.

I attach my own spreadsheet showing to within a few cents that my account should show approximately €99 CREDIT instead of the €654.43 DEBIT caused by the keyboard problems in Electric Ireland.

I want a new bill issued ASAP,  using the readings given above,  I want an apology and I want a substantial donation made to [a children’s charity].

As a consumer, maybe change that to customer, all I want is fair treatment and an accurate bill.  I haven't had an accurate bill since 16/03/2022.  That's 182 days ago, three billing cycles or almost six months ago.  Please refer to your customer charter and measure your organisation's performance against it.

If you have any questions about this email or my requirements, please call me at the number below.

Yours, mathepac

+353 99 123 4567

p.s. It'd also be very useful if the "smart meters" could display some simple useful information; the current day's date, for example."


----------



## mathepac (21 Sep 2022)

I spent 1 hour and 47 minutes on the phone yesterday to Electric Ireland having received another estimated bill, this time showing a balance owing of €725.71 !!! I was told it would take at least another two weeks before processing my letter referred to above.  That struck me as strangely accurate forecast given EI's inability to deal with issues in the here and now.  Then it struck me.

On October 1st the VAT rate will change back to 13.5% meaning I will be billed an additional 4.5%  VAT on electricity consumed during the 9% reprieve period we were granted. A conspiracy theory too far maybe, but still odd.

I asked the supervisor I was speaking to to stop shouting down the phone at me and to stop speaking over me. She shouted down the phone  over my request that she was not shouting at me!

Irony of ironies, this morning I got an email from EI telling me my new "smart meter" was now live! Partial quote

"_With our new smart meter products and services, you’ll be able to:_


_Choose accurate *monthly* *billing* on a date of your choice; no more bill shock or estimated meter readings._
_Monitor your electricity usage daily, weekly or monthly with *personalised energy insights* and graphs available on your online account._
_Enjoy the choice (based on your usage patterns over time) to move to a *time-of-use price plan* and use cheaper, greener electricity at night when demand is lower._
_Get *tips* on how to make better choices to reduce your bills and carbon footprint; e.g. washing your clothes in cold water can reduce energy use by as much as 75%, and it’s better for your clothes._"

News to EI, manufacturers have been producing coldwater-only washing machines and dish washers for at least 20 years.  Please try to keep up.

I'll repeat my oft-cited reality - technological change is non-deterministic; unless you cahnge the behaviours, attitudes, culture and performance of the organisation it may prove disastrous.

From the bottom of my latest work of fiction from EI, author unknown of course:

"_This invoice replaces inv no 001908036299 issued on the 11 Jul 22.
This invoice replaces inv no 001908044457 issued on the 18 Jul 22.
This invoice replaces inv no 000007728988 issued on the 21 Jul 22.
This invoice replaces inv no 000007730085 issued on the 22 Jul 22.
This invoice replaces inv no 001908116251 issued on the 13 Sep 22.
Energy consumption on this bill amounts to approx. 796 kg of carbon emissions.
*Your consumption is 196 kWh for this period compared to 44 kWh for the same period last year*._"


----------



## ryaner (23 Sep 2022)

Most smart-meter customers not using key feature
					

Only 4% of the more than 900,000 smart meter customers are availing of the "time of use" feature, according to the ESB.




					www.rte.ie
				





			
				ESB said:
			
		

> Only 4% of the more than 900,000 smart meter customers are availing of the "time of use" feature



I wonder if this is them admitting the smart meter plans aren't good value for customers?


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## Leo (23 Sep 2022)

ryaner said:


> Most smart-meter customers not using key feature
> 
> 
> Only 4% of the more than 900,000 smart meter customers are availing of the "time of use" feature, according to the ESB.
> ...


See the article linked here. In many cases the smart plans are offering better value, there is just a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering going on.


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## mathepac (24 Sep 2022)

From the Indo article linked to above:

"*But electricity suppliers have failed to explain the smart meter plan to customers, give them enough information to make informed decisions or offer deals attractive enough to make switching to smart tariffs worthwhile.*"

No mention of "a lot of misinformation" or evidence in support of the "fear-mongering going on" allegations, just the same ongoing failures on the part of the suppliers.

In better news I received another amended Electric Ireland bill by email earlier.  It shows "*Total due €77.72cr" *much to my relief and vindication.

The bottom of my new invoice now reads:

"This invoice replaces inv no 001908036299 issued on the 11 Jul 22.
This invoice replaces inv no 001908044457 issued on the 18 Jul 22.
This invoice replaces inv no 000007728988 issued on the 21 Jul 22.
This invoice replaces inv no 000007730085 issued on the 22 Jul 22.
This invoice replaces inv no 001908116251 issued on the 13 Sep 22.
This invoice replaces inv no 000007781639 issued on the 19 Sep 22.

Energy consumption on this bill amounts to approx. 293 kg of carbon emissions.

*Your consumption is 66 kWh for this period compared to 44 kWh for the same period last year."*

7 attempts to get primary school maths correct. Staggering incompetence and inefficiency on the part of Electric Ireland and their over-paid staff.  No apology of course


----------



## nest egg (24 Sep 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> ...*smart meters are mainly for the benefit of industry and not the consumer!*..


This is the elephant in the room, and based on the debate this week, the media seemed to have missed this point too.


----------



## AJAM (25 Sep 2022)

If they are so confident in their smart tariffs being better for consumers, why not allow consumers to switch back if they don't like them??????


----------



## Leo (26 Sep 2022)

nest egg said:


> This is the elephant in the room, and based on the debate this week, the media seemed to have missed this point too.


Well, the primary industry hoping to benefit is the national grid, which is state owned and consumer & tax payer funded.


----------



## Groucho (26 Sep 2022)

Leo said:


> See the article linked here. In many cases the smart plans are offering better value, there is just a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering going on.



That's over simplistic.  They offer better value only if someone is prepared to adapt their lifestyle to the dictate of the supplier; i.e. to eat one's dinner before 5.00 pm or after 7.00 or only have a shower between midnight and 7 in the morning on alternate Saturdays when there's an "r" in the month.


----------



## Leo (26 Sep 2022)

Groucho said:


> That's over simplistic.  They offer better value only if someone is prepared to adapt their lifestyle to the dictate of the supplier; i.e. to eat one's dinner before 5.00 pm or after 7.00 or only have a shower between midnight and 7 in the morning on alternate Saturdays when there's an "r" in the month.


If you think that's the case then you should complain to the regulator that the standard usage patterns they have approved for use in the accredited comparison sites are not accurate. They are specified to be representative of average user patterns prior to any behaviour changes.

As it stands, they offer marginally better value for the typical user who consumes 34% at night (11pm to 8am). The more you can shift usage to night, the cheaper they get. Of course the contrary applies in that if you use more during the day than average, they are more expensive and so not suitable.



Groucho said:


> or only have a shower between midnight and 7 in the morning on alternate Saturdays when there's an "r" in the month.



I'm sure you know that is nonsense. You also seem to be assuming that everyone is using on-demand electric showers which is far from the truth.


----------



## AJAM (26 Sep 2022)

Leo said:


> As it stands, they offer marginally better value for the typical user who consumes 34% at night (11pm to 8am). The more you can shift usage to night, the cheaper they get.


That may be true for 24 hour tariff, but I'm pretty sure that you are better off on a day/night tariff vs a smart tariff.


----------



## ryaner (26 Sep 2022)

If the smart meters were better for consumers, providers would be supplying information to say so. Instead they say you *could* save money *if* you get a plan *and* change your behaviour.

The fact that you can't access your own usage data until you have converted to a smart meter plan, a decision that is irreversible, says a whole lot and is why the CRU are investigating the plans and their value. Sadly this being Ireland the likely outcome is the legacy 24 hour plans increase in price more than the smart plans.

Also I can't find any basis that "34% at night" usage figure. The only common thing among providers is the 4200 kWh yearly figure. In fact different providers use different values for the night percentage depending on where you are located. Everything from 22% to 39%. If you are at the high end, yes a 24hour to smart meter switch can save you money once you don't use much in peak, but if you closer to the low end, the 24 hour plan saves money.

Really as others have mentioned, if the smart plans were better value, people would be switching to them. Instead people aren't.


----------



## Leo (27 Sep 2022)

Groucho said:


> Of course I do ........... but you started it with your nonsensical assertion that "in many cases Smart meters offer better value".


If you have issues with the comparison sites calculations, you should take it up with the regulator.


----------



## Leo (27 Sep 2022)

ryaner said:


> If the smart meters were better for consumers, providers would be supplying information to say so. Instead they say you *could* save money *if* you get a plan *and* change your behaviour.


The problem there is that they can';t guarantee that as the ultimate price depends on consumer behaviour either not changing or changing to move more use to the night time rate. The providers don't have individuals' information to be able to stand over such a claim. Stating that would leave them open to being sued by anyone who switched and upped their daytime use.


----------



## ryaner (27 Sep 2022)

Leo said:


> The problem there is that they can';t guarantee that as the ultimate price depends on consumer behaviour either not changing or changing to move more use to the night time rate. The providers don't have individuals' information to be able to stand over such a claim. Stating that would leave them open to being sued by anyone who switched and upped their daytime use.


Except that they do have the information once the meter is installed and could state that the smart meter plan would cost X based on your previous usage over the last billing period sort of thing.
While I do agree that a smart meter could help people change behaviour if the information was actually exposed better, the plans can't be stated as better value only if people have to change behaviour to achieve that better value.


----------



## Groucho (27 Sep 2022)

Leo said:


> If you have issues with the comparison sites calculations, you should take it up with the regulator.



I'm happy to fall in with the 96% of smart meter owners who have elected to remain on non-smart tariffs. They can't all be wrong!


----------



## nephster (27 Sep 2022)

ryaner said:


> Except that they do have the information once the meter is installed and could state that the smart meter plan would cost X based on your previous usage over the last billing period sort of thing.
> While I do agree that a smart meter could help people change behaviour if the information was actually exposed better, the plans can't be stated as better value only if people have to change behaviour to achieve that better value.


I suspect that, as implied in some of the articles, the issue is that rather than _rewarding _off-peak use, many of these plans heavily _penalise _on-peak use. So unless you change your behaviour they will never be cheaper than the non-smart rate, which ain't a great promotional tool. And even *then* they might not be.
The suggestion was to "shop around" to find one that did provide "better value" but without making the irrevocable jump to a smart plan, how can you tell if you can't see your data over time? Does such a plan actually exist?
I see it was mentioned that the ESB are planning to start exposing some of the data from the smart meters to allow you to actually make these decisions. That this is only being considered *now* is ludicrous.


----------



## Leo (27 Sep 2022)

ryaner said:


> Except that they do have the information once the meter is installed and could state that the smart meter plan would cost X based on your previous usage over the last billing period sort of thing.


They only get some of that information, and only if you are already a customer of theirs. ESB Networks don't share all data with all providers.



ryaner said:


> While I do agree that a smart meter could help people change behaviour if the information was actually exposed better, the plans can't be stated as better value only if people have to change behaviour to achieve that better value.


The portal that's 'coming soon' should be a real game changer here, allowing consumers way more access to their own usage data over time. Hopefully the data will be presented in such a manner as to make it easy to input the relevant elements into the comparison sites to get a really accurate view on your options across all providers.


----------



## Leo (27 Sep 2022)

Groucho said:


> I'm happy to fall in with the 96% of smart meter owners who have elected to remain on non-smart tariffs. They can't all be wrong!


Absolutely not, but a lot of them will be wrong. If you spend some time looking at your own usage, it's not that difficult to work out a good enough approximation of your own usage pattern. 

I'd far rather spend a little time on that than believe most of the public commentary on this which is dominated by the usual voices who just moan about everything.


----------



## Groucho (27 Sep 2022)

Leo said:


> Absolutely not, but a lot of them will be wrong. If you spend some time looking at your own usage, it's not that difficult to work out a good enough approximation of your own usage pattern.



I've been tracking my day and night consumption monthly for the past 38 years!    Believe me, if there was a Smart meter package worth signing up to, then I'd already be on it!     But there isn't.

And Bonkers.ie agrees with me!   



> Using the information provided, there are no savings available for your electricity supply We calculate that you would spend €1,739 over the next year with your current plan. See calculations


----------



## Leo (28 Sep 2022)

Groucho said:


> I've been tracking my day and night consumption monthly for the past 38 years! Believe me, if there was a Smart meter package worth signing up to, then I'd already be on it! But there isn't.


Great, so you now know you don't fall into the average consumer bracket and smart plans don't suit your current usage patterns, That of course does not take away from the fact that many people would save by moving to such a plan.


----------



## ryaner (28 Sep 2022)

Leo if you have a source for the Consumption Split I'd really appreciate it. I've contacted the CRU who only have the 4200kWh figure and directed me back to the individual providers for the rest of the split. I've not found any details in the CSO and even plugging in grid wide stats I can't get to the 30%+ figure show for nighttime.


----------



## Leo (28 Sep 2022)

ryaner said:


> Leo if you have a source for the Consumption Split I'd really appreciate it.


Sure, details are:

Consumption of 4,200 kWh split as follows:
52 % Day Rate
39 % Night Rate
9 % Peak Rate

Bonkers and Switcher both publish that same split, Powertoswitch don't detail it, but comes up with the same results.


----------



## ryaner (28 Sep 2022)

Leo said:


> Sure, details are:
> 
> Consumption of 4,200 kWh split as follows:
> 52 % Day Rate
> ...


Those are just the published figures, not the source of them. The CRU have said they aren't their figures. Other providers are using a different break down between the day and night rates.


----------



## Leo (29 Sep 2022)

ryaner said:


> Other providers are using a different break down between the day and night rates.


What regulated comparison site is using different figures?


----------



## ryaner (29 Sep 2022)

Leo said:


> What regulated comparison site is using different figures?


Here is https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/our-tariffs themselves which list different figures for urban and rural, again with no source for where the breakdown is coming from. 
Here is another with different figures https://communitypower.ie/tariffs/

Also both switcher and bonkers are "accredited" not regulated. I have emails in to both with no response yet querying where they got their figures.


----------



## nephster (29 Sep 2022)

ryaner said:


> Here is https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/our-tariffs themselves which list different figures for urban and rural, again with no source for where the breakdown is coming from.
> Here is another with different figures https://communitypower.ie/tariffs/
> 
> Also both switcher and bonkers are "accredited" not regulated. I have emails in to both with no response yet querying where they got their figures.



The CRU certainly mandate the standard _times _for the split. When it comes to a pure day/night split and consumption, in the CRU Electricity and Gas Suppliers' Handbook 2021 it states:
_The Estimated Annual Bill for Day/Night tariffs should be calculated as a 62%/38% Day/Night split.
...
This apportionment is informed by recent Smart Metering ESBN profiling for the Standard Smart Tariff which apportions consumption into Day, Night and Peak rates._

So, the ESB have crunched some data, then. The smart meters do send this info to the ESB, but according to their statement on data only if you have signed up for a plan which splits usage into those D/N/P bands, and the supplier has asked for it. Which, as we now know, is only 4% of those with a smart meter. For the other 96%, the ESB should only know how much is consumed every 24 hours, so they can only give data on a tiny fraction who, by definition, have changed to a plan which sees they are rewarded for night use/penalised for peak use and hence might be expected to have changed their behaviour.

But... the BG site goes beyond this and states the CRU mandates the day/peak/night _consumption _split, with
_All suppliers are required by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities to use the average annual consumption figure in electricity of 4200 kWh to calculate Estimated Annual Bill figures. The way the consumption is allocated into Day Night and Peak prices is required by the CRU for all electricity Suppliers’ Standard Smart Tariffs. The way consumption is required to be allocated is set out below: (blah)_

I can't see anything publicly available that backs that assertion up. As you say, Community Power have a completely different split for their standard smart tariff which I would say is far more representative of reality, and indeed may reflect the reality of *their* customers.


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## ryaner (29 Sep 2022)

Shout out to bonkers who just replied with the information. I'm still trying to crush the ESB data, there is a lot of it in the spreadsheets, however ignoring the highlighted inconsistencies around sample size, sample target, and age of the original profile, it does appear the original 52/39/9 split came from real measured data.

CRU publication on smart meters. Covers multiple responses from suppliers at the time, especially around the load profile. Some really good information in there and I wish the CRU themselves had provided this when asked.

ESB load profiles. Lots and lots of spreadsheets and code numbers. Taking a random entry I get a split of 64/22/13, but with so many numbers, that is kind of meaningless.


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## Leo (29 Sep 2022)

ryaner said:


> Here is https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/home/our-tariffs themselves which list different figures for urban and rural, again with no source for where the breakdown is coming from.


Bord Gais are an independent comparison site??


nephster said:


> The CRU certainly mandate the standard _times _for the split. When it comes to a pure day/night split and consumption, in the CRU Electricity and Gas Suppliers' Handbook 2021 it states:
> _The Estimated Annual Bill for Day/Night tariffs should be calculated as a 62%/38% Day/Night split._


Yeah, that all came from the 2017 consultation exercise that revised overall usage down from 5,300 kWh to the current 4,200. Based on the data it would actually have been better if they had published separate guides for rural and urban use, but more particularly for users who already had day/night meters installed. The rural average for those with day/night meters was actually 12,000kWh!


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## Groucho (30 Sep 2022)

Leo said:


> The rural average for those with day/night meters was actually 12,000kWh!



Would rural users include dairy farmers whose electricity usage would be significantly higher than that of 'normal' domestic consumers?


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## Leo (30 Sep 2022)

Groucho said:


> Would rural users include dairy farmers whose electricity usage would be significantly higher than that of 'normal' domestic consumers?


That was mentioned in the notes as one element alright. Rural homes tend to be larger with a greater prevalence of outdoor lighting for security purposes.


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## fidelcastro (30 Sep 2022)

Leo said:


> That was mentioned in the notes as one element alright. Rural homes tend to be larger with a greater prevalence of outdoor lighting for security purposes.


They should invest in LED lights then!


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## Leo (3 Oct 2022)

fidelcastro said:


> They should invest in LED lights then!


Agreed, but assuming they are doing so at the same rate as the general population, their greater need for lighting will still see them consuming more.


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