# succession in case of intestacy



## 3littlefish (14 Dec 2007)

who succeeds an unmarried person who dies intestate

a) their siblings
OR
b) biological child (given up for adoption) assuming the natural patrents both went back in later life and put their names on the child's birth cert.


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## Flymask (14 Dec 2007)

3littlefish said:


> the natural patrents both went back in later life and put their names on the child's birth cert.



Can natural parents do that? Was the adoption post-1952 in Ireland?


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## ClubMan (14 Dec 2007)

According to the GRO


> *Section 5. Re-registration of Births: *
> 
> The re-registration of a birth may be effected *only in either of the following two circumstances: *
> 
> ...


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## 3littlefish (14 Dec 2007)

5.1 APPLIES -  

any thoughts on succession


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## ClubMan (14 Dec 2007)

Does the inforamtion on _Citizen Information _about wills, intestacy etc. not clarify? I would have assumed that the child would take precedence.


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## Flymask (14 Dec 2007)

This actually begs a very interesting question. Could natural parents amend an entry in the register of births relating to a child who was subsequently the subject of an Adoption Order? While, even if they could, it would not affect the legal status of the adoptee in relation to inheritance rights etc (certainly post-1952), it would be interesting to know if they could actually amend the original entry or would alarm bells start ringing in the GRO?


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## Flymask (14 Dec 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I would have assumed that the child would take precedence.



I'm pretty sure that the 1952 Adoption Act removes any legal inheritance rights between natural parents and children, once an Adoption Order has been granted. However, I'm not sure of the situation had the adoption occurred before 1952.


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## 3littlefish (14 Dec 2007)

this adoption was in the 1970's.

does the natural child have any right to succession as next of kin in this case or does the fact that they were legally adopted cancel out any claim?


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## Flymask (14 Dec 2007)

1952 Adoption Act

 Property rights.     *26.*—(1) Where, at any time after the making of an adoption order, an adopter or the adopted person or any other person dies intestate in respect of any real or personal property (other than property subject to an entailed interest under a disposition made before the date of the adoption order), that property shall devolve in all respects as if the adopted person were the child of the adopter born in lawful wedlock and were not the child of any other person.



I'm 99% certain that you have absolutely no legal rights to any property of a natural parent once legally adopted. (Otherwise I'd be high-tailing it to Galway to lay claim to a large tract of land!! LOL!!)


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## ClubMan (14 Dec 2007)

Thanks _Flymask_.


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## Flymask (14 Dec 2007)

3littlefish said:


> t
> the natural parents, with their child's consent put the father's name on the BC only in the last 10 yrs.



Very interesting! Is 'with their child's consent' important here, do you happen to know?


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## 3littlefish (14 Dec 2007)

thanks for the info. 

Is that paragraph not from the perspective of the adopted childs succession rights in respect of thier adoptive parents. It refers to the property of the adopter.

i read that to say that IN RESPECT OF THE PROPERTY OF THE ADOPTER the adopted child is considered their child and not anyone elses.

Does that imply that if their natural parent dies intestate that that are not considered their child?????. They are for CAT purposes.


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## Flymask (14 Dec 2007)

Flymask said:


> 1952 Adoption Act
> 
> Property rights.     *26.*—(1) Where.... any other person dies intestate ... that property shall devolve in all respects *as if the adopted person were the child of the adopter born in lawful wedlock and were not the child of any other person *(to include the natural parent(s))



One of the over-riding goals of the 1952 Adoption Act was to ensure that an adopted child had the same legal rights as a natural child when it came to things such as succession. Therefore, the main legal link is to the adoptive parents.

I would be very surprised if it is true that a liability to CAT on a gift or inheritance from a natural parent to a legally adopted child would be assessed on the basis of a parent/child relationship. I'd be very interested to know if you are right.


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## 3littlefish (14 Dec 2007)

absolutely positive. 

An adopted child can inherit from their birth parents and their adopted parents under Category A. It is still cumulative.


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## Flymask (15 Dec 2007)

Capital Acquisitions Tax Consolidation Act 2003

(5) For the purposes of this Act, the relationship between a child,
adopted in the manner referred to in paragraph (b) of the definition
of ‘‘child’’ contained in subsection (1), and any other person, or
between other persons, that would exist if such child had been born
to the adoptor or adoptors in lawful wedlock, is deemed to exist
between such child and that other person or between those other
persons, and *the relationship of any such child and any person that
existed prior to that child being so adopted is deemed to have ceased. *(my emphasis)

Now you've really got me wondering!!


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## Flymask (15 Dec 2007)

*A Guide to completing the Inland Revenue Affidavit (Form C.A.24)*

*An adopted child taking an inheritance from a natural parent is entitled to the Group A threshold.
He/she is also entitled to the Group A threshold from his/her adoptive parents.

*You learn something new every day! Thanks for making me aware of that!! Even if it does seem to contradict other aspects of various Acts.


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## 3littlefish (15 Dec 2007)

no prob,


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## Flymask (15 Dec 2007)

This:*

...the relationship of any such child and any person that
existed prior to that child being so adopted is deemed to have ceased.

*would seem to be a contradiction of this:

*An adopted child taking an inheritance from a natural parent is entitled to the Group A threshold.

*Makes you wonder about the legal aspect of things.


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## z104 (15 Dec 2007)

If


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## Flymask (15 Dec 2007)

*1952 Adoption Act - Property Rights

(2) In any disposition of real or personal property made, whether by instrument inter vivos or by will (including codicil), after the date of an adoption order—

( b ) any reference (whether express or implied) to the child or children of the adopted person's natural parents or either of them shall, unless the contrary intention appears, be construed as not being, or as not including, a reference to the adopted person;
*

Scroll up to post #9 above, which is the section from the 1952 Adoption Act referring to property rights in the case of intestacy.

It is clear that, once the subject of an Adoption Order under the 1952 Act, there is no legal entitlement to anything from a natural parent's estate.

However, as _3littlefish_ pointed out, should you inherit from a natural parent's estate, your liability to CAT is calculated on the basis of a Group A relationship in terms of thresholds etc.


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## Madangan (18 Dec 2007)

An adopted child loses rights to the natural parents estate(logic being,presumably, that having obtained rights to the adopted parents estate, he/she cannot have it both ways).

However if an adopted child receives a gift or inheritance from natural parent the child is given the benefit of the higher tax thresholds.i.e those of a parent. I think this is as a result of changes to the CAT legilation say 10 years ago or so.

Its an anomaly but I think a fair one!


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