# UK and Irish driving licences held simultaneously



## ATC110 (5 Oct 2022)

Is it legal to hold an Irish driving licence and separately/independently apply for a UK licence, which would involve sitting the driving test et al? 

I understand it was not legal under EU law but what about now the UK has left the EU?

Thanks in advance for any details on this also if you could provide any relevant links.


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## Leo (5 Oct 2022)

You must be a UK resident to apply for or renew a UK license. 

If you do get one, some countries will not consider it valid if you are not a UK resident.


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## ATC110 (5 Oct 2022)

Leo said:


> You must be a UK resident to apply for or renew a UK license.
> 
> If you do get one, some countries will not consider it valid if you are not a UK resident.


It's for someone who has a residence in NI, spends significant time there and drives a UK registered vehicle when there.

They are tax resident in ROI.


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## ClubMan (6 Oct 2022)

Leo said:


> You must be a UK resident to apply for or renew a UK license.


Are you sure about that?
I can't find anything that stipulates that as a requirement.








						Apply for your full driving licence
					

How to get your full driving licence once you've passed your driving test - driving test certificate, photocard, provisional, paper licences




					www.gov.uk
				











						Identity documents needed for a driving licence application
					

If you do not have a UK passport there are other identity documents you can use for your driving licence application




					www.gov.uk


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## mct1 (6 Oct 2022)

This:  https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit/


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## Leo (6 Oct 2022)

ClubMan said:


> Are you sure about that?


Unlike here where it's voluntary, there's a requirement in the UK that you must change your license when you change address. The process in NI is slightly different to the rest of the UK, their guide is here. They only accesp UK/ NI addresses.


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## ATC110 (6 Oct 2022)

Leo said:


> Unlike here where it's voluntary, there's a requirement in the UK that you must change your license when you change address. The process in NI is slightly different to the rest of the UK, their guide is here. They only accesp UK/ NI addresses.


If you have a NI residential address is it possible to apply for a NI/UK driving test and hold a NI/UK driving licence and retain a ROI/EU driving licence?


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## Towger (7 Oct 2022)

My understanding is you can have driving licences for two or more countries once you have passed the test in those countries.  The issue with only being 'allowed one license' is when you transfer you license to another country.  Ie You cannot have an Irish license, hand it in to get a UK license, go back to Ireland and get a new Irish license while keeping the UK license.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (7 Oct 2022)

You can't hold two EU licences simultaneously. There is slow but effective automatic data sharing on this within the EU.

Since Brexit that automatic data sharing has stopped. I don't know what (if any) bilateral arrangements are in place.


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## Leo (7 Oct 2022)

ATC110 said:


> If you have a NI residential address is it possible to apply for a NI/UK driving test and hold a NI/UK driving licence and retain a ROI/EU driving licence?


Having a residential address and being a resident are two different things.


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## TLO (7 Oct 2022)

ATC110 said:


> If you have a NI residential address is it possible to apply for a NI/UK driving test and hold a NI/UK driving licence and retain a ROI/EU driving licence?



No.  You must be permanently resident in NI, which you aren't.

Also, there is no apparent need.  EU licenses continue to be valid in NI/GB.  Permanent residents of NI/GB can exchange EU licenses for NI/GB licenses, but are not obliged to.


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## Leo (7 Oct 2022)

TLO said:


> Also, there is no apparent need.


The only reason I can think of someone going down this route is a misguided attempt to avoid penalty points.


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## ATC110 (7 Oct 2022)

Leo said:


> Having a residential address and being a resident are two different things.


I realise this and it wasn't my question


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## lomber (7 Oct 2022)

TLO said:


> No.  You must be permanently resident in NI, which you aren't.
> 
> Also, there is no apparent need.  EU licenses continue to be valid in NI/GB.  Permanent residents of NI/GB can exchange EU licenses for NI/GB licenses, but are not obliged to.


If you show up with a plan to be permanently resident on day 1 that would satisfy the test. Being tax resident and being permanently resident for something civil like insurance or driving licenses are two different things.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (7 Oct 2022)

Assume you are NI resident and don't and have never had a UK license. From what I can tell you can apply to sit a test and qualify for a UK license the normal way.

There is no process anymore for the UK to check whether an applicant already holds an EU license.

It seems like a lot of effort and as @Leo says the only benefit would be to avoid penalty points.


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## Leo (7 Oct 2022)

ATC110 said:


> I realise this and it wasn't my question


True, so if you are a full time resident in the UK you can of course apply for a UK license.

There is no requirement to update an address on an Irish license, but you must be resident to renew one.

You'd need to ensure your insurance company are clear on which you are considering current.


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## Jim2007 (7 Oct 2022)

People should also be aware that there a customs penalties for the illegal importation of a car from a third country as well.  A resident of the EU cannot drive a car registered in an third country across an EU border without importing it...  A resident of the Republic can drive their own car across the border and use it no problem,  you can drive a car registered in a NI, in NI provided you meet the legal requirements. But not across a border...


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## ATC110 (16 Oct 2022)

Jim2007 said:


> People should also be aware that there a customs penalties for the illegal importation of a car from a third country as well.  A resident of the EU cannot drive a car registered in an third country across an EU border without importing it...  A resident of the Republic can drive their own car across the border and use it no problem,  you can drive a car registered in a NI, in NI provided you meet the legal requirements. But not across a border...


Does this mean that someone who is tax resident in ROI, but owns and keeps a vehicle in NI, cannot drive the NI registered vehicle in ROI?

If so, I'm not aware of this and think it would be difficult to enforce.


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## ATC110 (16 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> If you show up with a plan to be permanently resident on day 1 that would satisfy the test. Being tax resident and being permanently resident for something civil like insurance or driving licenses are two different things.


Could you elaborate on this @lomber? Thanks in advance


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## Eireann (16 Oct 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> You can't hold two EU licences simultaneously. There is slow but effective automatic data sharing on this within the EU.
> 
> Since Brexit that automatic data sharing has stopped. I don't know what (if any) bilateral arrangements are in place.


Hi, I may be wrong, but I think I read an article only last week (it had to be in The Independent or Irish Times online) which talked about further co-operation between the UK and Ireland on data sharing regarding points, driving, etc.  I looked for the article but couldn't find it now.
While you may be right, why would Brexit have any relevance to data sharing between Ireland and the UK, why would they not continue on as before?  I think the UK (all of UK, not just NI) and Ireland still have a huge amount of co-operation, especially on legal / policing matters.  The only major obvious change is in relation to customs / good movement, while I'm sure they're are more, my point is, why should things like, points, data sharing, etc. change because of Brexit?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (17 Oct 2022)

Eireann said:


> While you may be right, why would Brexit have any relevance to data sharing between Ireland and the UK, why would they not continue on as before?


It's a good question so I looked it up. There is an EU directive on driving licenses



> 5.
> (a)
> No person may hold more than one driving licence;
> (b)
> ...



As you can see no one is allowed to hold two EU licenses at the same time, and EU member states have to share information to ensure that someone applying for a license in one member sate cannot hold one in another already. There is no legal basis for this automatic cooperation anymore now that the UK is not an EU member. I cannot see any reference to this in the EU-UK withdrawal agreement.

This FAQ from the NDLS has some details. It simply says that UK licenses can be (and should be) exchanged for an Irish one of the holder moves to the Republic.

Post Brexit, as an Irish license holder I can't see a reason why you *can't *apply for a UK license (including sitting a test) once you are UK resident.


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## TLO (17 Oct 2022)

ATC110 said:


> Does this mean that someone who is tax resident in ROI, but owns and keeps a vehicle in NI, cannot drive the NI registered vehicle in ROI?
> 
> If so, I'm not aware of this and think it would be difficult to enforce.



Correct.  Someone who is tax resident in ROI, but owns and keeps a vehicle in NI, cannot drive the NI registered vehicle in ROI.

If someone does, they risk being challenged by an Officer of the Revenue Commissioners or An Garda Síochána.

The correct approach is to "re-register" the NI vehicle in ROI and pay the VRT on it.


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## lomber (17 Oct 2022)

TLO said:


> Correct.  Someone who is tax resident in ROI, but owns and keeps a vehicle in NI, cannot drive the NI registered vehicle in ROI.
> 
> If someone does, they risk being challenged by an Officer of the Revenue Commissioners or An Garda Síochána.
> 
> The correct approach is to "re-register" the NI vehicle in ROI and pay the VRT on it.


Although if one has a NI licence then likely unless its a high level /high profile car with alot of VRT eg Porsche/ Range Rover etc then likely the effort involved means that you should get away with it. The car can also be reexported if impounded. One always has the option of that I believe.
I dont recommend it as its quite possible the insurance would be invalid unless they agree to insure you while non resident.


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## TLO (17 Oct 2022)

Yes, you'll get away with it a lot of the time.  But it's always at the most inconvenient time, when you're least expecting it, that you'll be stopped, and the vehicle impounded on the spot.


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## T McGibney (17 Oct 2022)

TLO said:


> Correct.  Someone who is tax resident in ROI, but owns and keeps a vehicle in NI, cannot drive the NI registered vehicle in ROI.
> 
> If someone does, they risk being challenged by an Officer of the Revenue Commissioners or An Garda Síochána.
> 
> The correct approach is to "re-register" the NI vehicle in ROI and pay the VRT on it.


I don't mean to pick hairs but I don't think tax residence per se has anything to do with it. "Currently tax resident" does not automatically mean the same as "currently resident."


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## Leo (17 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> Although if one has a NI licence then likely


If they're resident in ROI then the NI license is invalid potentially attracting a £1,000 fine.


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## lomber (17 Oct 2022)

Exactly , tax residence and residence are two different things. For example for insurance you need to be currently resident and thats the thing Id be most worried about rather than a few k in vrt.


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## lomber (17 Oct 2022)

I dont think a Ni license is invalid at any point if you dont live there. For example if a Ni resident goes on holiday are they resident or not ? Tax residence is much more defined to protect revenue streams.


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## Leo (17 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> I dont think a Ni license is invalid at any point if you dont live there. For example if a Ni resident goes on holiday are they resident or not ? Tax residence is much more defined to protect revenue streams.


If you go on a 2 week holiday to Spain, do you really tell people you are living in Spain? 

As I've said, it is law in the UK that you must update your address if you move with the exception of students temporarily living away from home. This comes up in the media from time to time after people who were unaware get hit with hefty fines.


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## lomber (17 Oct 2022)

Leo said:


> If you go on a 2 week holiday to Spain, do you really tell people you are living in Spain?
> 
> As I've said, it is law in the UK that you must update your address if you move with the exception of students temporarily living away from home. This comes up in the media from time to time after people who were unaware get hit with hefty fines.


A 1000 fine isnt a big deal though. Lets say one has a third party claim of say 60k and the legal fees are another 60 so thats 120 and if the insurers pay and come after you for 120 Id be more worried than a nominal 1k fine.
Ditto with car being impounded, one could just pay a shipping broker to remove it from Ireland. No big deal.
Also I had a UK license and lived in Ireland for something like 9 years. Ive swapped it now as technically I couldnt renew as not resident there. Theres a whole thing around renewal as technically a UK license is valid until 75 but one needs to update the dvla with a picture and confirm address .The dvla cant accept an Irish address. They only want you to update if its a UK address. I was drving totally legally and my insurers were fine with a UK license for years. I could have just carried on though and it would be fine. Obviously Brexit may or may not have changed that. I swapped back in 2019 and originally traded my Irish for a UK years ago.


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## Leo (18 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> A 1000 fine isnt a big deal though. Lets say one has a third party claim of say 60k and the legal fees are another 60 so thats 120 and if the insurers pay and come after you for 120 Id be more worried than a nominal 1k fine.


Yes, in the event of someone chasing you for £120k, £1k isn't all that significant, but why choose an extremely rare scenario? How about assume you're not being chased for 120k, would you consider a £1k fine nominal?



lomber said:


> Ditto with car being impounded, one could just pay a shipping broker to remove it from Ireland. No big deal.


Are you suggesting they would steal it from the impound lot? Once it's impounded you have to resolve all outstanding issues before a broker is allowed to remove it. Saying it is to be exported does not resolve that, though you could later officially export it and seek refund of the residual VRT. 



lomber said:


> The dvla cant accept an Irish address. They only want you to update if its a UK address.


It's nothing to do with what they want, it's what the law says they must do. 


lomber said:


> They only want you to update if its a UK address. I was drving totally legally and my insurers were fine with a UK license for years. I could have just carried on though and it would be fine. Obviously Brexit may or may not have changed that.


Brexit clearly changed that, the UK are no longer an EU member, so the benefit of being able to retain and legitimately use a license from another member state no longer applies.


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## lomber (18 Oct 2022)

Leo said:


> Yes, in the event of someone chasing you for £120k, £1k isn't all that significant, but why choose an extremely rare scenario? How about assume you're not being chased for 120k, would you consider a £1k fine nominal?
> 
> 
> Are you suggesting they would steal it from the impound lot? Once it's impounded you have to resolve all outstanding issues before a broker is allowed to remove it. Saying it is to be exported does not resolve that, though you could later officially export it and seek refund of the residual VRT.
> ...


Technically if a car is presented for Vrt one can decline and export the car within x period from the state, so it could be presented,and then declined
The 1000 fine is nominal and has little chance of being applied imho. In any case monthly mortgages and rents are around 2k a month for life(Mort-death age)
When I looked at it you can send the DVLA a foreign address but they have no way to apply that, thats their problem not mine per se.


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## Leo (18 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> Technically if a car is presented for Vrt one can decline and export the car within x period from the state, so it could be presented,and then declined
> The 1000 fine is nominal and has little chance of being applied imho. In any case monthly mortgages and rents are around 2k a month for life(Mort-death age)


Hold on, you were talking about a car being impounded, what has bringing it for an VRT appointment have to do with it being impounded?

£1,000 being one of the largest motoring related fines is clearly not nominal. It is 10 times the standard speeding fine. Why persist with the straw men? Houses cost hundreds of thousands, are you saying your car cost that? 


lomber said:


> When I looked at it you can send the DVLA a foreign address but they have no way to apply that, thats their problem not mine per se.


They have no way of applying a foreign address because the legislation does not allow them to. Funny how you see their not being able to circumvent the law as their problem!


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## lomber (18 Oct 2022)

Leo said:


> Hold on, you were talking about a car being impounded, what has bringing it for an VRT appointment have to do with it being impounded?
> 
> £1,000 being one of the largest motoring related fines is clearly not nominal. It is 10 times the standard speeding fine. Why persist with the straw men? Houses cost hundreds of thousands, are you saying your car cost that?
> 
> They have no way of applying a foreign address because the legislation does not allow them to. Funny how you see their not being able to circumvent the law as their problem!


I did it for 9 years. My friend has done it for 25 (mum lives in NI and he a ROI resident) Hes never even updated photograph so who knows if license even valid ( I believe it is  not like a Irish license , the license is valid until somomething like 70 or 75)
No idea post Brexit if he swapped it. Im not advocating doing anything as long as you tell the insurer the truth.
I was in the States and how is it Ive never passed any test there and my license is valid?
Re Vrt, its like road tax, if you havent got any they can impound your car but they cant make you pay your allowed to tow the car out of there. With vrt likely ditto the car must be mechanically propelled to vrt it. Unless theres legislation forbidding you then you could either tow it out or present it,then decline the vrt and remove it from the State or as you suggested vrt it and then claim residual vrt on export.
I actually remember a case and the individuals car was impouded and to remove it he had to give a legal undertaking to vrt it in order to release it. So that means, present it for vrt, decline it and remove it from the State.


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## Leo (19 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> I did it for 9 years. My friend has done it for 25 (mum lives in NI and he a ROI resident) Hes never even updated photograph so who knows if license even valid ( I believe it is not like a Irish license , the license is valid until somomething like 70 or 75)


UK law says the details must be correct for the license to be valid. Like most things motoring. there's no problem until you come to the authorities attention for something else.



lomber said:


> No idea post Brexit if he swapped it. Im not advocating doing anything as long as you tell the insurer the truth.


That really is key, as in the event of an accident, they will check all the details and may deny you any cover, and that could be horrendously expensive if there are 3rd party injuries claims.



lomber said:


> I actually remember a case and the individuals car was impouded and to remove it he had to give a legal undertaking to vrt it in order to release it. So that means, present it for vrt, decline it and remove it from the State.


Are you suggesting breaching a legal undertaking is a good course of action?


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## Leo (19 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> UK law may say what it does but if they cant accept a foreign address that is their problem.The details are correct,that is the last UK known address(according to UK legislation) therefore the license is valid.


I presume you are deliberately being obtuse now. Read the legislation. Where does it say that the last known UK address is sufficient for a license to be valid?



lomber said:


> Im suggesting that Irish law entitles someone to remove the car from the country and decline Vrt thats just exercising their right.


I'm suggesting it appears you don't really know the law here.


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## Leo (19 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> I actually do know the law and it has to be defined and agreed in advance. As it isnt defined then its out of the 'net'


If you know the law, why were you ignorant of the requirements for addresses to be maintained current?



lomber said:


> Ive Vrted several cars and one does have the option of removing the car from the State per their own law.


The scenario you spoke of was after a car was impounded. Do you understand this is a very different scenario than presenting a car for VRT shortly after importing it?


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## Leo (24 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> If I sent them my Irish address and they couldnt update that how is that my problem?


It's quite simple really, the fact that you supplied an invalid address for a UK license is quite clearly your problem. 


lomber said:


> Honestly I am unsure of what happens on impound, there are some cases on tax appeals commission on vrt if your very interested.


You seemed pretty sure that you could simply export the car a earlier!


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## Leo (25 Oct 2022)

lomber said:


> You didnt answer if a homeless persons license in the UK is invalid? I


I provided a link to the legislation, read it for yourself.



lomber said:


> I am sure you can export the car without payment after impounding. The car can simply not be mechanically propelled on the States roads . It can be freely towed out of there unless theres legislation to the opposite which Im unaware of. If there isnt then a court order may be needed or a solicitors letter.


You may be sure, but you are wrong. Go take a look at a release form, they require evidence that all outstanding issues have been resolved before they will release the car. 



lomber said:


> Im guessing that they want you to sign an undertaking to present it(per my reading of vrt cases a while ago on tac),


Again, you're just guessing and conflating two separate processes. The option to decline to register a vehicle is not the same as releasing an impounded car.


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