# Leaving Cert - English Paper changed to Saturday



## DeeFox (4 Jun 2009)

I'm surprised no one has posted on this issue yet.  Am I the only one who feels a bit sorry for the person who made the mistake by giving out the wrong paper??  I've been listening to people on the radio all day giving out yards about him.  Everyone makes a mistakes; but what a horrible mistake to make knowing that it has upset so many people.


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## Mpsox (4 Jun 2009)

Heard a wee bit on the whine line this afternoon on RTE Radio 1. They had a girl on from the school affected and she was basically saying the school wasn't to be blamed and that there was no point in pointing fingers at the person concerned, it was one of those things. Have to say she was the most sensible person I heard today on this


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## Phibbleberry (4 Jun 2009)

Agreed, but what I can't understand is how it managed to happen seeing as its checked by the invigilator and then two random students, all three of whom have to sign to the effect that its the correct paper for the correct exam.

Feel sorry for the students though - as much as you're not supposed to 'only study for the predictions', it must be a killer to realise that it would've been your ideal paper...aswell as how thrown out of sync your head must be to have things rearranged in something that was to be so structured...


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## DerKaiser (4 Jun 2009)

The first mistake of handing out the wrong paper is forgiveable.

The second mistake of not immediately reporting it meant that there was no chance of avoiding disruption.

The lesson for anyone here is to own up to your mistakes early and often.

I personally believe that this type of thing must have happened somewhere before and the only reason we're hearing it this time is because kids have no concept of keeping their mouths shut these days!!!!


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## Sunny (4 Jun 2009)

DerKaiser said:


> I personally believe that this type of thing must have happened somewhere before and the only reason we're hearing it this time is because kids have no concept of keeping their mouths shut anymore!!!!


 
That and bebo and twitter and facebook and boards.ie....

Can't believe nobody posted the details on askaboutmoney. Suddenly feel old on this site!


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## papervalue (4 Jun 2009)

This issue was posted on this forum earlier this morning but was locked due to wrong forum

I dont think their is any excuse for the person to give out the wrong paper. As the person in the room with sole responsibility for exam i assume you would read the day and time on front of paper before giving it out.

In regard to the two students also signing for it- My recollection from years ago is the student signing form may have seem the person open package but would not have even looked at front of exam paper to check whether right date and subject(weak checking system).

I feel etremely sorry for any one seating Leaving certificate now. I think this could have more of an affect on a students performance them people realise. I think it is totally unfair for them to be sitting a paper on Saturday which could be totally different or obscure. Everyone when doing revision cuts part of course out and gets away with it. Now would you have to cover every area to cover yourself.

Regardless what happens a bad taste will be left from this exam. Maybe they should have cancelled it and calulated average mark based on paper one only with small input from teacher to say it reflects their yearly performance.


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## Ash 22 (4 Jun 2009)

Seemingly according to some guy on today he said both the actual paper and standby paper are set by 2 different groups who do not consult with each other so the same poets etc, could still come up on Saturday. One way or other its something could have been done without.


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## Lex Foutish (4 Jun 2009)

DerKaiser said:


> The first mistake of handing out the wrong paper is forgiveable.
> 
> The second mistake of not immediately reporting it meant that there was no chance of avoiding disruption.
> 
> ...


 
Something similar did happen in a school in West Cork -in Schull, I think- a few years ago but from what I remember, the papers were gathered up again immediately and they didn't have to revert to a Plan B.


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## papervalue (4 Jun 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> Something similar did happen in a school in West Cork -in Schull, I think- a few years ago but from what I remember, the papers were gathered up again immediately and they didn't have to revert to a Plan B.


 

Back them the 2 papers were on the same day i think and they kept them in room between the two exams to prevent a outside leak of what was on paper, bascially a shutdown


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## Lex Foutish (4 Jun 2009)

papervalue said:


> Back them the 2 papers were on the same day i think and they kept them in room between the two exams to prevent a outside leak of what was on paper, bascially a shutdown


 
That would make sense alright.


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## zag (4 Jun 2009)

This whole thing about having to "study all the other poets now" because all the ones that the teachers/psychics/students predicted were going to come up have been in some way used-up is rubbish.

It's a little like saying that the numbers 3, 14, 16, etc . . . can't come up on Saturdays lotto because they came up on Wednesdays one.  Rubbish, of course they can still come up.  They are just as likely to come up again, especially if the fall-back paper has been drafted the way it was supposed to be and there was no link with the people drawing up the main paper.

Reminds me of that scene from The Princess Bride where Fezzick tries to over-think the poisoned glass trick . . . www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUee1WvtQZU

z


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## DeeFox (5 Jun 2009)

I'm listening to the radio and it is being said that rescheduling the exam to Saturday is being estimated to cost in the region of one million euro. Part of the cost comes down to the supervisors - it is being said that the exam supervisors (of which there is approximately 2000) will earn €117 per day plus expenses for food and mileage. Nice work if you can get it! Why on earth aren't the teachers at the schools required to do this work as part of their job?


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## greenfield (5 Jun 2009)

It would appear that todays kids are not unique in being unable to stop themselves spreading the word... In 1969 seemingly it only took a day..
From todays IT
Madam, – Lest anyone get too carried away by the evils of modern communications or the falling ethics of students in relation to the Leaving Cert English paper drama, can I recall the old Intermediate and Leaving Certificate in 1969, when exam papers were stolen from the Department of Education?
Using the limited facilities that we had in those days – carrier pigeons, Morse code, semaphore, etc –  the contents of those exam papers were transmitted across the country, accurately, within about a day. I remember the 49A bus being a particularly powerful communications hub in this regard.
As will happen in the current case, we sat newly prepared papers, but not before we had also sat the original ones with which we were then quite  familiar. It was a long summer.  – Yours, etc,
Prof BAIRBRE REDMOND,
Rathdown Villas,
Terenure,
Dublin 6W.


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## Mpsox (5 Jun 2009)

greenfield said:


> It would appear that todays kids are not unique in being unable to stop themselves spreading the word... In 1969 seemingly it only took a day..
> From todays IT
> Madam, – Lest anyone get too carried away by the evils of modern communications or the falling ethics of students in relation to the Leaving Cert English paper drama, can I recall the old Intermediate and Leaving Certificate in 1969, when exam papers were stolen from the Department of Education?
> Using the limited facilities that we had in those days – carrier pigeons, Morse code, semaphore, etc – the contents of those exam papers were transmitted across the country, accurately, within about a day. I remember the 49A bus being a particularly powerful communications hub in this regard.
> ...


 
Heard Bertie Ahern on the radio on Thursday evening, he did the leaving cert that year. He said that the stolen papers only came to light after the 2 exams(Maths and English) had been sat so everyone had to do a new paper on both subjects on a Saturday


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## Mpsox (5 Jun 2009)

DeeFox said:


> I'm listening to the radio and it is being said that rescheduling the exam to Saturday is being estimated to cost in the region of one million euro. Part of the cost comes down to the supervisors - it is being said that the exam supervisors (of which there is approximately 2000) will earn €117 per day plus expenses for food and mileage. Nice work if you can get it! Why on earth aren't the teachers at the schools required to do this work as part of their job?


 
I would imagine there would be concerns that some teachers would/could help their pupils if they had unsupervised access to them during an exam


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## Bubbly Scot (5 Jun 2009)

Mpsox said:


> They had a girl on from the school affected and she was basically saying the school wasn't to be blamed and that there was no point in pointing fingers at the person concerned, it was one of those things. Have to say she was the most sensible person I heard today on this



I wonder if this was the same girl I heard saying it was no big deal as anyone who had studied properly wouldn't be too fazzed. Have to admit, while I feel sorry for the people taking exams I do agree with that girl. Exams ARE stressful but welcome to the grown up world where things are not always going to go as planned. Life throws stuff at you and part of being a grown up is dealing with it (or not).


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## QED (5 Jun 2009)

Bubbly Scot said:


> I wonder if this was the same girl I heard saying it was no big deal as anyone who had studied properly wouldn't be too fazzed. Have to admit, while I feel sorry for the people taking exams I do agree with that girl. Exams ARE stressful but welcome to the grown up world where things are not always going to go as planned. Life throws stuff at you and part of being a grown up is dealing with it (or not).



I also agree. Things change and the ability to adapt and deal with unexpected situations is very important in everyday life and work. 

If a student cannot deal with this and they get upset and overwhelmed with stress then I don't think they deserve high marks.


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## DeeFox (5 Jun 2009)

Mpsox said:


> I would imagine there would be concerns that some teachers would/could help their pupils if they had unsupervised access to them during an exam


 
It could be rostered so that no teacher is allowed to supervise a class they taught or arrangements are made between neighbouring schools - it just seems like a ridiculous waste of money.


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## Firefly (5 Jun 2009)

They should have moved the exam back to the end to keep tonight's and tomo morning's time free as normal. Feel sorry for the crammers!!


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## Protocol (5 Jun 2009)

DeeFox said:


> I'm listening to the radio and it is being said that rescheduling the exam to Saturday is being estimated to cost in the region of one million euro. Part of the cost comes down to the supervisors - it is being said that the exam supervisors (of which there is approximately 2000) will earn €117 per day plus expenses for food and mileage. Nice work if you can get it! Why on earth aren't the teachers at the schools required to do this work as part of their job?


 

The supervisors are teachers, just from different schools.

So if you teach in Naas, you might supervise in Dundrum, etc.


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## DeeFox (5 Jun 2009)

Protocol said:


> The supervisors are teachers, just from different schools.
> 
> So if you teach in Naas, you might supervise in Dundrum, etc.


 
My point is that these teachers are being paid an additional €117 plus expenses when they are already being paid a teachers salary (assuming they are in permanent positions).  I don't agree that they should be paid extra for carrying out duties that I would see as being directly related to their job.


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## Bubbly Scot (5 Jun 2009)

Protocol said:


> The supervisors are teachers, just from different schools.
> 
> So if you teach in Naas, you might supervise in Dundrum, etc.



If this is the case, is it these teachers who are getting paid as DeeFox said?? on top of their regular salary?



DeeFox said:


> it is being said that the exam supervisors (of which there is approximately 2000) will earn €117 per day plus expenses for food and mileage.


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## Protocol (5 Jun 2009)

Yes, thousands of secondary teachers either supervise or mark the State exams each year.

I assume this is common knowledge.

I'm not 100% sure of the daily rate, but 117 wouldn't be far off.

They also get mileage and subsistence at normal public service rates.

In many cases 2, 3 or even 4 might travel in the same car, but make 4 claims!!!!!

I've heard stories of them discussing is it 40km or 42km to the school.  They would discuss the 2km worth of expenses.


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## Homer (5 Jun 2009)

QED said:


> I also agree. Things change and the ability to adapt and deal with unexpected situations is very important in everyday life and work.
> 
> If a student cannot deal with this and they get upset and overwhelmed with stress then I don't think they deserve high marks.


 
Cop onto yourself! It's easy to be judgemental and make sweeping statements about people not deserving high marks.

But the fact is that many students are in a highly emotional and stressed state during the leaving cert, due in part to the hype surrounding the exams and the pressure put on them by parents with unreallistic expectations.

So give the kids a break! Maybe *you* could have handled it, but it doesn't give you the right to pass judgement on others for whom this could be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Regards
Homer


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## ninsaga (5 Jun 2009)

Did I hear this correctly today - that even with the exam going ahead on Saturday, that the Jewish community do not need to sit it due to Sabbath - therefore they get to sit it on Sunday........and that it will be same paper that is being handed out on Saturday!


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## Vanilla (5 Jun 2009)

Heard they were going to be under house arrest with no internet, phone access etc. Not sure how this is going to be policed though.

I remember when I was doing my mocks getting phone calls from cousins, friends of cousins, friends of friends, cousins of friends etc etc all over the country in the vain hope our papers would be the same as they were about to sit in order to get tips. And that was pre-internet.


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## Marion (5 Jun 2009)

Vanilla said:
			
		

> Heard they were going to be under house arrest with no internet, phone access etc. Not sure how this is going to be policed though.



[broken link removed]

Jewish Representative Council of Ireland spokesman Carl Nelkin, said 
“They will remain in quarantine under supervision in an Orthodox household in Dublin.

“fewer than 10” Jewish students will take the examination this Sunday morning instead ... “It’ll be a typical Sabbath day which means, among other things, that they won’t have access to TV, internet, mobile phones or any other electronic media,” he said. “While words like quarantine might sound harsh, this will be a typical Sabbath environment, which is very enjoyable.”



Marion


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## papervalue (6 Jun 2009)

Good luck to all leaving certs doing english paper later this morning-

I hope the people who drew up alternatively paper picked the same topics as orginal paper- touch wood.


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## extopia (6 Jun 2009)

DeeFox said:


> Am I the only one who feels a bit sorry for the person who made the mistake by giving out the wrong paper?



The guy tried to cover his ass by not telling anyone. That's not very admirable behaviour. He deserved his suspension.


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## liaconn (6 Jun 2009)

I know we all make mistakes, but this was the very first exam of the entire process. You would imagine the supervisors would be extremely alert and careful at this stage. If it had happened towards the end of the exams you might be able to put it down to tiredness, familiarity breeding carelessnes whatever. I don't really think there's much excuse to be honest. If you take on the responsibility of supervising then surely checking you've opened the right exam paper is a very basic thing to do.


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## papervalue (6 Jun 2009)

The person was named in one of to-days papers as a retired teacher with an extremely good past record.

From what I see he bascially tried to cover it up himself- Per news paper a inspector called at school that morning as well and was never informed by him and I dont think he told principal either.

The individual has a lot to anwser for, between cost and no one can really estimate what damage this has done as for a student the worry could spread from this incident to the rest of the persons exams.

Off the point, when the results could out, I wonder will some parents consider legal action in regard to this, (people have taken legal action for a lot less) such as hair colour, uniform etc


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## MandaC (6 Jun 2009)

I see one of the Red Tops decided to publish a photo of this man (like their usual name and shame campaigns)

I think that is disgraceful - he made a mistake, big deal, no one died.

Whilst I feel sorry for the students having their timetables botched up etc- it is going to be one of those stories in years to come "when I did my leaving, we had to sit the paper on a saturday" and not much more than that.


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## shanegl (6 Jun 2009)

They shouldn't have published his details.

However, he didn't just make a mistake, he deiberately tried to cover it up and ended up costing the taxpayer an estimated million euro.


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## DublinTexas (6 Jun 2009)

shanegl said:


> They shouldn't have published his details.
> 
> However, he didn't just make a mistake, he deiberately tried to cover it up and ended up costing the taxpayer an estimated million euro.


 
I'm sorry but if he would have come forward immediatly saying that he made a mistake they could have done something there and than. In that case, everybody would have been "gee.. these teachers.." but nothing major would have happend.

But instead he went ahead and tried to cover it up, ending up costing us millions of Euro (we could spend on more usefull stuff). 

The press is right in naming and shaming him, in fact, the state should go after him for this behavior. His inability to owe up to the problem he created is shamefull and for sure must also have broken some law.

It's not that mistake that is outrages, it's the attempted cover up.


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## DeeFox (8 Jun 2009)

DublinTexas said:


> The press is right in naming and shaming him, in fact, the state should go after him for this behavior. His inability to owe up to the problem he created is shamefull and for sure must also have broken some law.
> 
> It's not that mistake that is outrages, it's the attempted cover up.


 
He made a mistake by handing out the wrong paper - he had them taken back within a minute. The students then got the right one and got stuck straight into it.  I heard one student on Joe Duffy say she was in the class and that she and those around her didn't see it at all - she reckoned it must have been a few down the back who had it for marginally longer than she did. This man genuinely probably didn't think any real harm had been done. He should have informed the inspector but hindsight is 20/20.  I think it is completely wrong of the media to name and picture him - what good does that achieve?


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## AgathaC (9 Jun 2009)

DeeFox said:


> He made a mistake by handing out the wrong paper - he had them taken back within a minute. The students then got the right one and got stuck straight into it. I heard one student on Joe Duffy say she was in the class and that she and those around her didn't see it at all - she reckoned it must have been a few down the back who had it for marginally longer than she did. This man genuinely probably didn't think any real harm had been done. He should have informed the inspector but hindsight is 20/20. I think it is completely wrong of the media to name and picture him - what good does that achieve?


 +1. Well said, I agree that exam time is a stressful time for students BUT it was a mistake and as another poster said earlier-'nobody died'. Let's keep a sense of perspective here. What might have any of us done under the circumstances? I have read a couple of letters in the papers from what I would describe as 'self righteous' students. Let's hope that this is the worst that ever happens to any of them.


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