# KBC 2006



## ReimCait (6 Feb 2020)

Hi, I am hoping someone can help shed some light on this for me. My husband & I took out a mortgage with IIB Homeloans in late 2006 via One Life Brokers ( no longer in existence). The contract was fixed for 36 months and the product was ‘ Flexi Annuity’. It states on the loan that after the end of the fixed term ‘ the prevailing variable rate’ will apply. First off I can’t find any policy booklet for this year outlining the product ‘ flexi annuity’ and no where can I find the definition of a ‘prevailing rate’ at this time. In addition it states ’loans at variable rates will experience fluctuation reflecting interest rate changes’ , to me this quote reads as a tracker.
There is also a point in the agreement stating ‘if during the fixed rate period the applicant fully or partially redeem the advance or convert it to variable interest rate or another fixed rate loan, a break funding fee will apply’
This also reads to me that the prevailing rate is deemed a tracker,

Do you think I have any case here?


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## Dpdp01050842 (6 Feb 2020)

“loans at variable rates will experience fluctuation reflecting interest rate changes”

To me this reads as variable rates can change reflecting the banks cost of funds and does not indicate a tracker.

Second point just related to a fixed break cost, noting to do with a tracker.


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## ReimCait (7 Feb 2020)

Dpdp01050842 said:


> “loans at variable rates will experience fluctuation reflecting interest rate changes”
> 
> To me this reads as variable rates can change reflecting the banks cost of funds and does not indicate a tracker.
> 
> Second point just related to a fixed break cost, noting to do with a tracker.


Many thanks. It’s more the timeframe being 2006. They only had 2 options which were fixed or prevailing variable rate which I have read was referring to ‘tracker ‘. Also it is the responsibility of the bank to be clear and concise which I believe the contract isn’t based on the above.  Would KBC provide copy of a policy document for that timeframe?


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## unfortunate (7 Feb 2020)

I have asked for them to clarify their policies at that time but not forthcoming. They only just clarified that prevailing variable rate was variable.


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## demoivre (7 Feb 2020)

ReimCait said:


> Hi, I am hoping someone can help shed some light on this for me. My husband & I took out a mortgage with IIB Homeloans in late 2006 via One Life Brokers ( no longer in existence). The contract was fixed for 36 months and the product was ‘ Flexi Annuity’. It states on the loan that after the end of the fixed term ‘ the prevailing variable rate’ will apply. First off I can’t find any policy booklet for this year outlining the product ‘ flexi annuity’ and no where can I find the definition of a ‘prevailing rate’ at this time. In addition it states ’loans at variable rates will experience fluctuation reflecting interest rate changes’ , to me this quote reads as a tracker.
> There is also a point in the agreement stating ‘if during the fixed rate period the applicant fully or partially redeem the advance or convert it to variable interest rate or another fixed rate loan, a break funding fee will apply’
> This also reads to me that the prevailing rate is deemed a tracker,
> 
> Do you think I have any case here?



I know of several people who have appealed based on that scenario.


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## demoivre (7 Feb 2020)

Dpdp01050842 said:


> “loans at variable rates will experience fluctuation reflecting interest rate changes”
> 
> To me this reads as variable rates can change reflecting the banks cost of funds and does not indicate a tracker.



A tracker is a type of variable rate, and it too fluctuates.


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## Johnc6 (7 Feb 2020)

Hi
First request all your documentation from the Bank and review what returns. From that, you can see when exactly the application was made and proceed from there.



ReimCait said:


> Hi, I am hoping someone can help shed some light on this for me. My husband & I took out a mortgage with IIB Homeloans in late 2006 via One Life Brokers ( no longer in existence). The contract was fixed for 36 months and the product was ‘ Flexi Annuity’. It states on the loan that after the end of the fixed term ‘ the prevailing variable rate’ will apply. First off I can’t find any policy booklet for this year outlining the product ‘ flexi annuity’ and no where can I find the definition of a ‘prevailing rate’ at this time. In addition it states ’loans at variable rates will experience fluctuation reflecting interest rate changes’ , to me this quote reads as a tracker.
> There is also a point in the agreement stating ‘if during the fixed rate period the applicant fully or partially redeem the advance or convert it to variable interest rate or another fixed rate loan, a break funding fee will apply’
> This also reads to me that the prevailing rate is deemed a tracker,
> 
> Do you think I have any case here?


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## peemac (16 Feb 2020)

I think you are really pulling at strings.

Standard variable rate mortgages until 2010 always moved with interest rate changes.

An annuity mortgage is a standard repayment mortgage. It's a standard term as well. Flexi just means that you make extra payments or redeem it without penalty. 

If a bank didn't move the rates within a reasonable time frame, then the media would have been writing stories and new business would dry up. 


There is nothing in your post that suggests a "tracker".

Broker gave bad advice. 

Unless there is something written that gives a specific margin over ecb or says the word tracker, there is no case.


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## Wonder (16 Feb 2020)

I think unless you have the words standard variable rate in your contract you have a case.
If you do have the word standard variable rate with an explanation of rate in your contract you don't have a case.
Variable rate moves with ecb +1.25 for private home buyers, and ecb +1.4 for buy to let  i.e tracker
Standard variable rate moves at the discretion of the bank ...We as kbc customer do not know the rates of svr from 2005 to 2008 and kbc to date have not shown or proved what these rate were.
So in my opinion you have case with the prevailing rate.
As for blaming brokers...that's a no go it was the banks that paid the brokers in commission 90% of kbc mortgages were sold by brokers at this time.
Kbc can go after the brokers if they feel that the brokers that sold their product did so incorrectly which they did not as all contracts with prevailing variable rate came from kbc,brokers did not draw up contracts. 

Still around  trying to discourage people PEEMAC.


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## demoivre (17 Feb 2020)

peemac said:


> I think you are really pulling at strings.
> 
> Standard variable rate mortgages until 2010 always moved with interest rate changes.
> 
> ...



You can just as easily say unless there is specific mention of a "standard variable rate" the bank has no case. Using non specific terms such as "prevailing rate" or "prevailing variable rate" breaches the guidelines in The Framework document, The Consumer Protection Code and the EU Directive on unfair terms in contracts. 

If the banks had intended for customers to roll to a standard variable rate after a fixed rate why didn't they just state that clearly in the contract, which they are supposed to do  ?


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## peemac (17 Feb 2020)

Wonder said:


> Still around  trying to discourage people PEEMAC.


I'm being pragmatic. 

I suffered from kbc's tracker scandal and fought them since 2009 and one of the original posters on the tracker scandal here.

I've gone through contracts word for word, had extensive legal advice including counsel and fought every angle. 

Unless the original poster has something to indicate in black and white that a tracker forms part of the agreement, they are clutching at straws. 

Of course, no one wants to hear this, but reality is not always pleasant.

There's nothing in the op that suggests that they expected a tracker rate.

Only angle is if the mortgage was drawn down after Nov 6th 2006. Then they can look at the infamous flyer angle.


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## joe351980 (17 Feb 2020)

Demoivre, this is hands down one of the best statements on this site. 

"If the banks had intended for customers to roll to a standard variable rate after a fixed rate why didn't they just state that clearly in the contract, which they are supposed to do ?"


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## demoivre (18 Feb 2020)

peemac said:


> Unless the original poster has something to indicate in black and white that a tracker forms part of the agreement, they are clutching at straws.



Unless the bank has something in black and white that a standard variable rate forms part of the agreement , they are clutching at straws.

The notion that a tracker must be specifically mentioned in a contract for a borrower to be entitled to it, but a standard variable rate doesn't have to be, but instead a selection of loose terms can be used to describe a standard variable rate, is in direct contravention of The Framework document and the EU directive on Unfair Terms in contracts. And of course Section 2.2 of the Consumer Protection Code requires that banks:

"acts with due skill, care and diligence in the best interests of its customers; "


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## demoivre (18 Feb 2020)

peemac said:


> I suffered from kbc's tracker scandal and fought them since 2009 and one of the original posters on the tracker scandal here.
> 
> I've gone through contracts word for word, had extensive legal advice including counsel and fought every angle.



Who did you appeal your case to ?


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## peemac (18 Feb 2020)

demoivre said:


> Who did you appeal your case to ?


Ombudsman 2012. Rejected.


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