# Irish Times: "Banning of bedsits set in train housing disaster"



## Brendan Burgess (31 Jan 2022)

Una Mullally: Banning of bedsits set in train housing disaster
					

Cheap form of city accommodation was replaced by pricey studios and one-beds




					www.irishtimes.com
				




​Cheap form of city accommodation was replaced by pricey studios and one-beds​
_On reflection, it would have been a good idea to instruct landlords to embark upon raising the quality and standard for bedsits while, and this is key, maintaining their cheaper rent. But that’s not what happened. Bedsits were banned, and then Eoghan Murphy introduced new design standards for planning authorities, which meant in real terms that flats could be smaller again, but the rent would keep going up._ 

Not sure that reflection is needed. I would guess that it was pointed out by economists  at the time. 

Brendan


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## T McGibney (31 Jan 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> _"it would have been a good idea to instruct landlords to embark upon raising the quality and standard for bedsits *while, and this is key*, maintaining their cheaper rent. "_


Someone skipped *way* too many economics classes in school.


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## Firefly (31 Jan 2022)

It was debated on these pages at the time too. I remember some posters arguing against bedsits, I wonder have they changed their mind?


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## cremeegg (31 Jan 2022)

Any government regulation which imposes costs on suppliers to an essential market leads in the medium term to higher profits for those suppliers. 

The need for housing is not going away. It the costs to supply housing are increased, suppliers will seek profits on the additional costs.

A sandwich costs €1 to make and sells for €2. When govt puts the cost up to €1.2 what price does the seller need to maintain margins? Not €2.20 but €2.40. And bear in mind that some sellers will fall away so competition will be reduced. Some sellers will be asking themselves, can I get €2.50


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## Brendan Burgess (31 Jan 2022)

Hi firefly 

I don't remember the debate on askaboutmoney.

In 2009, the national opinion was that we had ghost estates and that we needed to demolish houses rather than build them. 

Brendan


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## Baby boomer (31 Jan 2022)

1983: Annual Salary IR£9,000 approx.  Bedsit in Rathmines IR£19 pw.  A great little place.  Large high ceiling room with bed, two large ancient armchairs, small table and two chairs. It was described as "self-contained" which meant it had it's own bathroom!  And so it had - a tiny room partitioned off with toilet, shower and whb.  Kitchen was in an understairs space that had originally been a hallway to the back of the house.  By today's standards, it'd be called a kip.  But it was exactly what I wanted at a price that allowed me save for a house deposit.  

Explain to me again how increased regulation would have made me better off?


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## DazedInPontoon (1 Feb 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> ...But it was exactly what I wanted at a price that allowed me save for a house deposit.
> 
> Explain to me again how increased regulation would have made me better off?


The reasons I can see are:
1) It was a 'let them eat cake' kind of fallacy - "if we remove bedsits everyone will have their own studio apartment instead". As if removing a choice from someone helps them.
2) It was an intentional move to reduce supply to drive up property (well, non-bedsit property) prices and the construction industry.

Was it either of these or something else?


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## Protocol (1 Feb 2022)

Can somebody clarify for me the difference between a bedsit and a studio apartment?


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## ClubMan (1 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> Can somebody clarify for me the difference between a bedsit and a studio apartment?


One is Northside and the other is Southside?


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## Baby boomer (1 Feb 2022)

Protocol said:


> Can somebody clarify for me the difference between a bedsit and a studio apartment?


About €500 per month.


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## Mocame (1 Feb 2022)

A bedsit usually refers to a house converted into separate apartments of which bedsits had a single room.  They also commonly had shared bathrooms.  Studio apartments generally refers to a purpose built unit.

The ban on bedsits was introduced after years of campaigning by the housing charity Threshold.  It was introduced in 2008 before the level of house building was still high so I don't think the conspiracy theories about artificially depressing housing supply are correct.  It is a real example of the problems created by the government constantly caving in to all of the demands of housing campaigners.  

Unfortunately further problems of this type are coming down the line.  From 2025 all residential lettings must have a minimum of a BER B rating.  This means that no house or apartment built before the late 1990s can be let out without major improvement works.  The ideas of encouraging people to let out the house of someone who moves into a nursing home will come to nothing.  

Of course I understand that renters of low BER homes will have to may higher heating costs but surely this is better than having no home?  Throughout the housing crisis efforts to provide more housing have been undermined by demands to achieve the perfect, at the expense of the good.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (1 Feb 2022)

Mocame said:


> From 2025 all residential lettings must have a minimum of a BER B rating.


Can you find a source for this? This was mentioned in last years "Housing for All" document but the details were kicked to touch and there was no minimum BER provided.



> In support of the Government’s Climate
> Action Plan objectives and targets, energy
> efficiency in private rental housing needs
> to increase. *The Government will develop
> ...


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## Peanuts20 (1 Feb 2022)

Lived in a bedsit when I was 21 and first started working and it was grand. Only real issue was the bathroom sharing but only 3 bedsits in the house so not the end of the world and I was on my own. 

The new "shared living" appartment complexes were really just a reinvention of them. Bedsits are not homes, they really should exist for short term/starting out renters but not anything more.


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## T McGibney (1 Feb 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> In 2009, the national opinion was that we had ghost estates and that we needed to demolish houses rather than build them.


Hi Brendan,

Whatever about 'the national opinion', it was certainly the opinion of David McWilliams and other media talking heads who kept bringing up stories of unwanted apartment blocks in Texas being bulldozed. By 2011 it was obvious to even a casual visitor to the city that Dublin was experiencing a housing squeeze. 11 years later they still haven't worked out how to solve it.


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## Firefly (1 Feb 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi firefly
> 
> I don't remember the debate on askaboutmoney.
> 
> Brendan


Hi Brendan,






						Why there is so little house building in Ireland
					

Why the automatic assumption that houses must be built???  There is a need to provide social accommodation, but that does not automatically mean that we should built more houses...  Hi Jim   Not sure I follow you.  How can we provide accommodation without building it?   Maybe shift those on...



					www.askaboutmoney.com
				




I think it was mainly "RainyDay" arguing for the removal of bedsits

Firefly


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## T McGibney (1 Feb 2022)

Firefly said:


> I think it was mainly "RainyDay" arguing for the removal of bedsits



It was too. And when I disagreed with him on housing, he accused me explicitly of being in the pocket of the construction industry as I (like every other accountant in the country) had clients in the sector.

A wrong 'un.


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## Purple (3 Feb 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Someone skipped *way* too many economics classes in school.


She's a Shinner proxy, what do you expect?


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## odyssey06 (3 Feb 2022)

Instruct landlords? Key word there.
_On reflection, it would have been a good idea to *instruct landlords* to embark upon raising the quality and standard for bedsits while, and this is key, maintaining their cheaper rent. _

Meanwhile, in the real world, agencies under government instruction such as Dublin City Council were trying to get away from social housing provision due to the cost, rental collection difficulties, maintenance etc etc

I wouldn't be surprised to find the irish times leading the charge back in the day calling for bedsits to be banned, or at least welcoming it.


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## AlbacoreA (3 Feb 2022)

Its really about affordable housing. 

By raising standards, (and accepting no compromises) and indeed by favoring new landlords, you remove all the older cheaper stock from the market. 

The BER system is flawed in a similar way.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (3 Feb 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> By raising standards, (and accepting no compromises) and indeed by favoring new landlords, you remove all the older cheaper stock from the market.


Holding floor area and location constant, a new house today is just a much, much nicer product than the house I grew up in which was built in 1972.


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## odyssey06 (3 Feb 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> Holding floor area and location constant, a new house today is just a much, much nicer product than the house I grew up in which was built in 1972.


Not going to get many new houses in the places bedsits were concentrated... and what new properties there are more expensive to build and rent correspondingly higher.


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## AlbacoreA (3 Feb 2022)

It's also costs vastly more relatively to wages. 

It's also uneconomical to bring older properties to a rental standard which reduces supply. 

Co living is a flawed attempt to address that.


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## Leper (4 Feb 2022)

I stayed in a few bedsits in my day. Back in the 70's you played Bedsit Roulette i.e. got one looked continuously for a better one. Back then you could afford a house by the time you were 24 and most married by 26th birthday. Bedsits were never meant to be permanent from the start of your working days until you died. They were a temporary sort of accommodation most could afford. Some could be death traps with little exit and flammable materials throughout and no fire extinguishers (even if you knew how to use them).

With Ireland's housing crisis worsening, something needs to be done. A sort of decent bedsit availability could be a short term solution. We need solutions, not problems - this week on radio I heard a lady screaming for a sort of annual NCT for rented accommodation. We continue making things worse for tenants and landlords. Until we come to terms with this the problem will continue.


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## Purple (4 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> I stayed in a few bedsits in my day. Back in the 70's you played Bedsit Roulette i.e. got one looked continuously for a better one. Back then you could afford a house by the time you were 24 and most married by 26th birthday.


The good old days. Even when I started out (and that was decades after Leper as he's VERY old) properties were affordable on modest enough incomes. Thanks to money printing that's no longer the case.


Leper said:


> Bedsits were never meant to be permanent from the start of your working days until you died. They were a temporary sort of accommodation most could afford. Some could be death traps with little exit and flammable materials throughout and no fire extinguishers (even if you knew how to use them).


There are still plenty if utter kips out there. I looked at a good few with my son when he was moving out and there were "Apartments" with glorified ladders to converted attics with mattresses on the floors. One place that was advertised as a one bed could sleep 9. 


Leper said:


> With Ireland's housing crisis worsening, *something needs to be done*. A sort of decent bedsit availability could be a short term solution. We need solutions, not problems - this week on radio I heard a lady screaming for a sort of annual NCT for rented accommodation. We continue making things worse for tenants and landlords. Until we come to terms with this the problem will continue.


"Something needs to be done", sure, but what? Blaming the government for the housing crisis is like blaming them for climate change. This is an international problem and we are ill suited to tackle it. 
I worry that the narrative seems to be that we should provide more social housing when what's really needed is a construction sector that can provide houses at a rate average people can buy based on their wages and not existing equity.


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## Leper (4 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> "Something needs to be done", sure, but what? Blaming the government for the housing crisis is like blaming them for climate change. This is an international problem and we are ill suited to tackle it.
> I worry that the narrative seems to be that we should provide more social housing when what's really needed is a construction sector that can provide houses at a rate average people can buy based on their wages and not existing equity.


I am not blaming the government and neither is anybody else other than some SF supporters. However, the Housing Crisis is not going into "un-crisis" by itself. I don't have all the answers and it appears nobody else does either. But, we have to start somewhere or at least start. Stand still and we'll get run over which is what appears to be happening. And not a bad place to start would be the re-introduction of some sort of bedsit accommodation. I say this with landlords exiting the once lucrative market and with the possibility of all rental accommodation being subject to a B Ber rating along with the possibility of such homes having to undergo a kind of NCT test yearly. 

Please don't ask for links or references; I'm only quoting what I heard in the past week on RTE1 news radio programmes.


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## AlbacoreA (5 Feb 2022)

Successive govts on many countries followed  the same economic plan to privatize social housing. They also commoditised housing in general to fuel economic growth.

Not all governments and countries did this. So it's entirely valid to criticize any who did. In Irelands specific case they actually poured fuel on the fire when it was beyond obvious there was a problem.

In recent years govt policy and inaction has directly impacted supply problems. Not least as it effects landlords. Even the rent pressure zones are implemented here in such a way to favour new landlords and thus large landlords and REITs which has further distorted supply very uniquely.

Bedsits were one of a litany of events that brought us to this point. As such recreating them won't put the genie back in the bottle.


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## Purple (5 Feb 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> Successive govts on many countries followed  the same economic plan to privatize social housing. They also commoditised housing in general to fuel economic growth.
> 
> Not all governments and countries did this. So it's entirely valid to criticize any who did. In Irelands specific case they actually poured fuel on the fire when it was beyond obvious there was a problem.


What exactly do you mean that? In what country is housing not a commodity?
The reason the State moved away from council housing was the cost of upkeep and the inability to collect rent since it’s just about impossible to evict anyone in this country.


AlbacoreA said:


> In recent years govt policy and inaction has directly impacted supply problems. Not least as it effects landlords. Even the rent pressure zones are implemented here in such a way to favour new landlords and thus large landlords and REITs which has further distorted supply very uniquely.


REITs make up a tiny proportion of the rental sector so they have no material impact on rental costs or property prices. How do large landlords distort the market other than increasing supply?



AlbacoreA said:


> Bedsits were one of a litany of events that brought us to this point. As such recreating them won't put the genie back in the bottle.


What other events, decisions by the State, brought us to this state?


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## AlbacoreA (5 Feb 2022)

I said new and large landlords. If it's new rental they can set any rent they like. (Not bound by RPZ) So small landlords stuck on low rent leave. New landlords with new properties raise the average rent. 

It's an interesting way to have implemented that particular policy. 

Public owned housing isn't a commodity. Or built in partnership with limits on rents, but funding and loans provided etc. 

There are other approaches...


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## Purple (7 Feb 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> I said new and large landlords. If it's new rental they can set any rent they like. (Not bound by RPZ) So small landlords stuck on low rent leave. New landlords with new properties raise the average rent.
> 
> It's an interesting way to have implemented that particular policy.


Do the same rules not apply to all Landlords?



AlbacoreA said:


> There are other approaches...


Such as?


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## Purple (8 Feb 2022)

In the context of this discussion this article by Ronan Lyons is interesting.


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## AlbacoreA (8 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> Do the same rules not apply to all Landlords?
> 
> 
> Such as?



The same rule, but not all LLs are effected the same no.


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## AlbacoreA (8 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> In the context of this discussion this article by Ronan Lyons is interesting.



I would agree in broad terms. There's nothing in there about population growth, or  or any of the regulation changes and Govt interference, and lack of public building of housing, or even lack of action by the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank, and the Govt role in all that.


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## Baby boomer (8 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> In the context of this discussion this article by Ronan Lyons is interesting.


Good spot.  The thing about the ghost estates had always puzzled me.  I was wondering where they'd gone!


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## AlbacoreA (8 Feb 2022)

There still appear in the media. 









						Ghost estates: Thousands of homeowners in fight to get ghost estates completed
					

Horses picking their way over discarded breeze blocks, sheep grazing where gardens where meant to be, roads to nowhere with only faded drawings on dilapidated billboards to show what was supposed to lie ahead.




					www.independent.ie


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## Delboy (8 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> REITs make up a tiny proportion of the rental sector so they have no material impact on rental costs or property prices. How do large landlords distort the market other than increasing supply?


REIT's are a relatively new introduction to the Irish housing market and while as a whole, they make up a small percentage of the market, over the past 10 years they have been the dominant player in the rental market and are pace setting the record levels of rental price increases. IMO.

They are also affecting house prices on a local level. There's a road not far from me here in Dublin, red brick 1930's houses. 3 houses have gone for sale in the past 15 months and all 3 were bought by a REIT. The houses are being done up slowly and converted into apartments for rent.  Homeowners on the road are being canvassed discreetly for more sales to the REIT.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2022)

Delboy said:


> REIT's are a relatively new introduction to the Irish housing market and while as a whole, they make up a small percentage of the market, over the past 10 years they have been the dominant player in the rental market and are pace setting the record levels of rental price increases. IMO.


The State is the dominant player in the  rental market. The State is pricing private renters out, just as they are pricing private buyers out of the market. 


Delboy said:


> They are also affecting house prices on a local level. There's a road not far from me here in Dublin, red brick 1930's houses. 3 houses have gone for sale in the past 15 months and all 3 were bought by a REIT. The houses are being done up slowly and converted into apartments for rent.  Homeowners on the road are being canvassed discreetly for more sales to the REIT.


the net result is more housing units. How is that a bad thing?


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## Leper (9 Feb 2022)

The Rental Crisis and Housing Crisis is more serious the nearer you get to Dublin from it's bordering counties. Dublin has got too big and nearly every day (never mind the weekends) is an event day. With Covid on the back foot and many working-from-home the country now has an ideal opportunity to decentralize more government departments etc. Ireland may never get this chance again. 

Now is the time to act otherwise your Dublin commuting children/grandchildren will be hoping for their forever home within two miles of Limerick Junction, Ballybrophy or somewhere in Co Longford/Roscommon.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> The State is the dominant player in the  rental market. The State is pricing private renters out, just as they are pricing private buyers out of the market.
> 
> the net result is more housing units. How is that a bad thing?



Thus far they've been primarily focused at the top end of the market, where there is the most profit. Though they are spreading out from that now.
Net result is new housing units, but not where their is most demand. 
Hence why you see articles in the media about high end developments sitting empty or with high vacancy rates. 

The supply/demand is very specific.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> Hence why you see articles in the media about high end developments sitting empty or with high vacancy rates.


Are they empty because they haven't been put on the market of because people don't want them at their current price point?


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## AlbacoreA (9 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> The Rental Crisis and Housing Crisis is more serious the nearer you get to Dublin from it's bordering counties. Dublin has got too big and nearly every day (never mind the weekends) is an event day. With Covid on the back foot and many working-from-home the country now has an ideal opportunity to decentralize more government departments etc. Ireland may never get this chance again.
> 
> Now is the time to act otherwise your Dublin commuting children/grandchildren will be hoping for their forever home within two miles of Limerick Junction, Ballybrophy or somewhere in Co Longford/Roscommon.



I think the opportunity is going to slip away. There's very little being done to encourage flexible working, and decentralization.


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## AlbacoreA (9 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> Are they empty because they haven't been put on the market of because people don't want them at their current price point?



I'm sure there's a variety of reasons. 

But where do we want new builds. Where there's an existing surplus or a shortage.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> I'm sure there's a variety of reasons.
> 
> But where do we want new builds. Where there's an existing surplus or a shortage.


That was the problem during the boom, as pointed out by Ronan Lyons in the article I linked to, building was driven by tax breaks, not market demand.
We need building where there is demand but what's really needed is new residential units. The grants being given out for home retrofits are great but a similar scheme to convert the semi-used over the shop type units would could be very good value for money. That would also create supply at the lower end of the market, in areas with existing population density and near public transport links.
Edit: Apparently there are plans afoot for that very thing.


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## Delboy (9 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> The State is the dominant player in the  rental market. The State is pricing private renters out, just as they are pricing private buyers out of the market.
> 
> the net result is more housing units. How is that a bad thing?


They are pushing up house prices, which you said wasn't the case. They are pushing up rents at pace in the main urban centres.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2022)

Delboy said:


> They are pushing up house prices, which you said wasn't the case. They are pushing up rents at pace in the main urban centres.


They are buying higher priced units. There's no evidence that they are pushing up prices.
From your link_ "Mr McCartney said those properties might not have been developed if those arrangements had not been in place."_

The issue is lack of supply. I don't understand the hostility towards capital in-flows that fund extra supply.


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## jpd (9 Feb 2022)

because it is easier to throw bricks at landlords than use them to build new housing


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## AlbacoreA (9 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> They are buying higher priced units. There's no evidence that they are pushing up prices.
> From your link_ "Mr McCartney said those properties might not have been developed if those arrangements had not been in place."_
> 
> The issue is lack of supply. I don't understand the hostility towards capital in-flows that fund extra supply.



Pointing out what's happening is not hostility. 

Supply without context is meaningless

Prices are rising. What other proof is needed? 
The causes are multifaceted. But in the context of rent controls, they haven't worked. Partly because they favor the new rental over an existing one. They favor a large landlord over a small one. Thus ultimately don't stop price rises in fact they encourage. 

If I'm a landlord with a property on a low rent. I makes sense for me to sell up, no one else can raise the rent on that property. I can then create a new rental somewhere else and raise the rent. There are costs to change. But in a constantly rising market. All I'm doing is adding value on my investment. I will get more rent and the property will be worth more. 

If I think the risk of the price falling or a problem tenant is too high. I can simply leave the market. I would prefer to be in market with modest income for modest risk. Is that the market that exists. Its debatable. 

That's the landlords perspective. Is it aligned with what renters want. Is it aligned with solving the rental crisis. I suggest it isn't. 

For me it's someone else's problem. It's just interesting watching it play out. 



.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> Pointing out what's happening is not hostility.


Sorry, I meant the general hostility, not from you. 


AlbacoreA said:


> Supply without context is meaningless
> 
> Prices are rising. What other proof is needed?


None; supply and demand drive everything.


AlbacoreA said:


> The causes are multifaceted. But in the context of rent controls, they haven't worked. Partly because they favor the new rental over an existing one. They favor a large landlord over a small one. Thus ultimately don't stop price rises in fact they encourage.


Rent controls never work.


AlbacoreA said:


> If I'm a landlord with a property on a low rent. I makes sense for me to sell up, no one else can raise the rent on that property. I can then create a new rental somewhere else and raise the rent. There are costs to change. But in a constantly rising market. All I'm doing is adding value on my investment. I will get more rent and the property will be worth more.


True, but as you say there are costs involved and it's a large amount of capital.  


AlbacoreA said:


> If I think the risk of the price falling or a problem tenant is too high. I can simply leave the market. I would prefer to be in market with modest income for modest risk. Is that the market that exists. Its debatable.
> 
> That's the landlords perspective. Is it aligned with what renters want. Is it aligned with solving the rental crisis. I suggest it isn't.


Renters want more for less, landlords want the opposite. The interests of the seller and buyer are rarely aligned in any one-off transaction. 


AlbacoreA said:


> For me it's someone else's problem. It's just interesting watching it play out.


It is indeed. Viewing economic basics through the prisms of ideology or political populism is never a good idea and that's what's happening here.


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## Leper (9 Feb 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> I think the opportunity is going to slip away. There's very little being done to encourage flexible working, and decentralization.


Opportunity Declined! - Next Generation Visiting Sunday Drives from The Pale should be very interesting (and long).


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## AlbacoreA (9 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> It is indeed. Viewing economic basics through the prisms of ideology or political populism is never a good idea and that's what's happening here.



Its hard to avoid though if that what successive Govts have been doing. 

You would assume it would be wise to take some heat out of the market instead of continuing to pump it. Slow and steady rather than boom and bust. 

If I was financially savvy I should be able to take advantage. But I'm not.


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## Purple (9 Feb 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> Its hard to avoid though if that what successive Govts have been doing.


I think that governments since the boom have behaved quite responsibly. They faced massive pressure to try to raise the Central Bank borrowing limits and have resisted it. They have mostly resisted demand-side stimulus. I do have a big problem with the State buying and renting from the existing private housing stock in order to provide public housing. In effect they are pricing private buyers and renters out of the market with their own money. That's a result of a very populist opposition and their "useful idiots" in the media. 


AlbacoreA said:


> You would assume it would be wise to take some heat out of the market instead of continuing to pump it. Slow and steady rather than boom and bust.


The heat in the market is driven by a doubling of the global money supply since 2012. When capital is flowing into the market (because there's been no returns on bonds) and supply isn't increasing at the same pace then prices go up. That capital isn't just institutional investors, it's bloated private pensions and capital appreciation in private property creating large inheritances and "Bank of Mum and Dad" scenarios. Around 1% of the residential property stock changes hands each year so very small changes in supply and demand and very small changes in capital availability cause massive changes in overall values. 


AlbacoreA said:


> If I was financially savvy I should be able to take advantage. But I'm not.


Same here!


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## AlbacoreA (9 Feb 2022)

I think there is scope for a profit risk sharing relation ship between Govt and the market. I think Austria had something like that in place. But obviously the market and demand can out pace that.


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## joe sod (9 Feb 2022)

Ronan Lyons talked about the huge volume of houses built in the likes of Leitrim  and fields in the countryside rather than in the cities. He said this was largely driven by tax breaks.
Therefore most of the building output during the boom was a waste of resources. In the UK and most of Europe its almost impossible to get permission to build on greenfield sites in the country .Almost all their building activities are focused on urban areas. In Ireland it's almost the opposite we are still too fond of building on greenfield sites in the country. Our construction industry does not have the expertise to do high density construction in the cities


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## Leo (9 Feb 2022)

joe sod said:


> In Ireland it's almost the opposite we are still too fond of building on greenfield sites in the country. Our construction industry does not have the expertise to do high density construction in the cities


It's very difficult to get permission to build on greenfield here unless the LA has specifically zoned the area for residential development, and that doesn't happen quickly with how long it takes to go through the public consultation process. 

I don't think the issues with high-rise here are down to lack of expertise, it's more that planning regulations don't allow it and locals don't want it.


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## joe sod (9 Feb 2022)

But look at the St James hospital build and the massive Intel construction site  ,the only contractor that was able to do it was BAM the big Dutch company.  When Leo had a row with them over the escalating price he had to back down because BAM threatened to walk away and nobody else was in a position to take it on (also the fact that the state itself was largely culpable in the escalating costs)
We don't have a construction industry capable of doing large urban developments on brown field sites. Its still mostly small scale builders building one off houses or housing estates on the edge of towns.


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## RetirementPlan (10 Feb 2022)

joe sod said:


> But look at the St James hospital build and the massive Intel construction site  ,the only contractor that was able to do it was BAM the big Dutch company.  When Leo had a row with them over the escalating price he had to back down because BAM threatened to walk away and nobody else was in a position to take it on (also the fact that the state itself was largely culpable in the escalating costs)
> We don't have a construction industry capable of doing large urban developments on brown field sites. Its still mostly small scale builders building one off houses or housing estates on the edge of towns.


Is that really true? What about builders like Paul, Sisk, Rhatigans, Walls doing very large developments, hotels, apartment blocks and more?


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## Leo (10 Feb 2022)

joe sod said:


> But look at the St James hospital build and the massive Intel construction site ,the only contractor that was able to do it was BAM the big Dutch company.


Building a hospital or a semi-conductor fab are very specialised jobs. Housing is simple by comparison.

When you say we can't do high-density. What exactly is it you mean by high density?


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## joe sod (10 Feb 2022)

Leo said:


> Building a hospital or a semi-conductor fab are very specialised jobs. Housing is simple by comparison.
> 
> When you say we can't do high-density. What exactly is it you mean by high density?


I mean 6 story streets throughout all the main business districts like you see in every other European city. The only genuine high density building was done by the Georgians and victorians in Dublin.  They built most of the city centre in Dublin,  we built all the low density suburban areas in cabra, drimnagh  ,coolock  , tallaght  ,blanchardstown etc


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## Leo (10 Feb 2022)

joe sod said:


> I mean 6 story streets throughout all the main business districts like you see in every other European city.


That's nothing whatsoever got to do with the capability of builders here, we have plenty of buildings here taller than than, but the development plans in most areas prohibit that scale of development.


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## Brian McD (10 Feb 2022)

Undertook a DCC Living Over the Shop construction project in Dublin 8 around 2005/2006, where a 3 story over retail that contained 5 bedsits was converted into 3 large large apartments. Took a lot of work, time and chasing people , but all worked out fine in the end. You could effectively write off c.40% of the construction price against future rental income so this was the primary driver. Asked around the area at the time, but very few others were interested in doing it at the time fire to hassle of getting construction team involved / architects / bank debt / potentially dealing with bad tenants / older people owing the buildings and not bothered. So you can have all the incentives you want to economically incentivise people to undertake the refurbishment of the space over shops in cities / towns but the vast majority of owners will not get involved due to the amount of work it takes


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## Leper (11 Feb 2022)

Looking at this and other threads recently on AAM I get the feeling there is no hope whatsoever on the housing front for the next generation and many in the current generation. There will be no revival of bed-sits, landlords are exiting the business and it appears this will get worse if anything,o decrease. With a housing "NCT" on the horizon and particular Ber ratings along with all the other hoops a landlord has to negotiate. Rental prices are now dearer than mortgage outgoings. 

Just when we thought it couldn't get worse - are trailer parks coming?


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## Purple (11 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> Looking at this and other threads recently on AAM I get the feeling there is no hope whatsoever on the housing front for the next generation and many in the current generation. There will be no revival of bed-sits, landlords are exiting the business and it appears this will get worse if anything,o decrease. With a housing "NCT" on the horizon and particular Ber ratings along with all the other hoops a landlord has to negotiate. Rental prices are now dearer than mortgage outgoings.
> 
> Just when we thought it couldn't get worse - are trailer parks coming?


The market will correct itself eventually. Money printing has broken the link between labour (wealth creation) and capital values. That can't last forever. If money printing is rocket fuel then the relationship between real wealth creation and long term capital values is gravity.


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## T McGibney (11 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> Looking at this and other threads recently on AAM I get the feeling there is no hope whatsoever on the housing front for the next generation and many in the current generation.


It will end whenever there is willpower to end it. First, both society and the political class that represent it have to get over their collective loathing of residential property developers and builders.


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## ClubMan (11 Feb 2022)

T McGibney said:


> It will end whenever there is willpower to end it. First, both society and the political class that represent it have to get over their collective loathing of residential property developers and builders.


And landlords and investment funds...?


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## T McGibney (11 Feb 2022)

ClubMan said:


> And landlords and investment funds...?


Yes, of those too.


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## Leper (11 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> The market will correct itself eventually. Money printing has broken the link between labour (wealth creation) and capital values. That can't last forever. If money printing is rocket fuel then the relationship between real wealth creation and long term capital values is gravity.


The market will not correct itself no more than my house will hoover itself. People must act on the matter. What people? When? How? Where?
I reckon it is not a case of are the trailer parks coming; now it's when.


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## Purple (11 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> The market will not correct itself no more than my house will hoover itself. People must act on the matter. What people? When? How? Where?
> I reckon it is not a case of are the trailer parks coming; now it's when.


Booms and busts. That's the market correcting itself.


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## Leper (11 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> Booms and busts. That's the market correcting itself.


. . . . and our kids/grandchildren can watch it from their trailers.


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## Purple (11 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> . . . . and our kids/grandchildren can watch it from their trailers.


Possibly. We've stolen from their future to fund our present. We've nobody to blame but ourselves.


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## odyssey06 (11 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> . . . . and our kids/grandchildren can watch it from their trailers.


Will they be looking across at empty houses and apartments?
If an entire generation can't afford it... something would have to give.


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## The Horseman (11 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> The market will not correct itself no more than my house will hoover itself. People must act on the matter. What people? When? How? Where?
> I reckon it is not a case of are the trailer parks coming; now it's when.


the market will correct itself if its allowed to. All markets are living organisms that evolve in line with changing environments. They don't when their environment is altered by outside forces.


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## Leper (11 Feb 2022)

The Horseman said:


> the market will correct itself if its allowed to. All markets are living organisms that evolve in line with changing environments. They don't when their environment is altered by outside forces.


. . . . and will this happen sometime soon? Time is running out fast.


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## T McGibney (11 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> . . . . and will this happen sometime soon? Time is running out fast.





The Horseman said:


> ...if its allowed to...


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## The Horseman (11 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> . . . . and will this happen sometime soon? Time is running out fast.


Remove rpz, speed up evictions and remove govt supports and the market will adjust. 

Question that must be answered "is there political will" to do this?

The property sector would be in a more realistic position in 3 yrs or so. Not everyone would be happy but it would be fairer to the majority involved.


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## Leo (11 Feb 2022)

The Horseman said:


> Question that must be answered "is there political will" to do this?


The political will is heavily invested in getting re-elected. Unfortunately the dominating public voices are calling for more of all the things you rightly suggest need to be reversed.


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## The Horseman (11 Feb 2022)

Leo said:


> The political will is heavily invested in getting re-elected. Unfortunately the dominating public voices are calling for more of all the things you rightly suggest need to be reversed.


Looking at this in a wider context there is growing anger amongst the squeezed middle which has come to the fore as a result of the govt €200 esb credit etc. 

We can't just keep giving all the time. There are stories in the media where a dual income family needs to go to food banks. 

I suspect social welfare cuts are coming. Middle income have no more to give, Social housing, housing supports are going to change. If the State expect the private sector landlord to foot the bill they are in for a shock. 

Even Threshold acknowledge this fact which I am totally shocked they are openly admitting this in public.


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## Purple (12 Feb 2022)

The Horseman said:


> Looking at this in a wider context there is growing anger amongst the squeezed middle which has come to the fore as a result of the govt €200 esb credit etc.
> 
> We can't just keep giving all the time. There are stories in the media where a dual income family needs to go to food banks.


I'm always sceptical about those stories, we have one of the most generous welfare systems in the world and income inequality has reduced considerably in this country in recent decades. 
If they do actually need to go to a food bank it's because of high housing costs, not taxes. If not that then they need to talk to their bank about restructuring their mortgage. If not that then they are just rubbish at general life stuff and need a grown-up to show them how to budget. 


The Horseman said:


> I suspect social welfare cuts are coming. Middle income have no more to give, Social housing, housing supports are going to change. If the State expect the private sector landlord to foot the bill they are in for a shock.


Most middle income households are net recipients from the State. They have a net gain when the taxes they pay are deducted from the services they receive. 
With the Child Killers not the biggest Party in the State there's no chance of a welfare cut. The Pensioners will get their pound of flesh in the next budget. 


The Horseman said:


> Even Threshold acknowledge this fact which I am totally shocked they are openly admitting this in public.


Threshold are a bunch of ideologically driven muppets. They are part of the problem, not the solution.


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## Purple (12 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> . . . . and will this happen sometime soon? Time is running out fast.


It would have happened already if we hadn't kept inflating it with made-up money. That same money that resurrected all the pension funds and doubled the price of houses.


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## Leper (12 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> It would have happened already if . . .


"if" being the important word . . . and as I pick out my horses before I visit the bookies later this morning I have more confidence on my Saturday Yankee showing a profit than I have in the "market correcting itself" ever, never mind in 3 years like suggested above.

In a short few years time we'll all be enduring the noise of sites being cleared for trailer parks. That's the only "certainty" running today, I regret to say.


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## The Horseman (12 Feb 2022)

Purple said:


> I'm always sceptical about those stories, we have one of the most generous welfare systems in the world and income inequality has reduced considerably in this country in recent decades.
> If they do actually need to go to a food bank it's because of high housing costs, not taxes. If not that then they need to talk to their bank about restructuring their mortgage. If not that then they are just rubbish at general life stuff and need a grown-up to show them how to budget.
> 
> Most middle income households are net recipients from the State. They have a net gain when the taxes they pay are deducted from the services they receive.
> ...


I completely agree we do indeed have one of the most generous welfare system. "Generous" being the perfect word to describe our welfare system. 

You are missing the point regarding middle income. During the pandemic income tax receipts did not fall. This suggests those who were not working as a result of the shut downs do not pay or pay little income tax. Ie they are not contributing income tax.

This suggests middle income are not net receiptents when they have taxes removed as those who were not working during the pandemic  availed of the same services as those who were not paying income tax. 

No matter what you think the squeezed middle are not net receiptents (or at a min others are gaining more than the squeezed middle). If what you suggest where true then our income revenue should have fallen and it didn't. 

I still believe state benefits will be reduced. No party will risk this effecting the pensioner group. This group to their credit are the most vocal and willing to protest to protect themselves. But I believe all other receiptents will be impacted.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2022)

The Horseman said:


> I completely agree we do indeed have one of the most generous welfare system. "Generous" being the perfect word to describe our welfare system.
> 
> You are missing the point regarding middle income. During the pandemic income tax receipts did not fall. This suggests those who were not working as a result of the shut downs do not pay or pay little income tax. Ie they are not contributing income tax.
> 
> ...


It's not my opinion. Taking each 10% of earners as a cohort only the top 30% of earners are net contributors and the 70-80% cohort only barely make the cut.



It costs €7k- €8k a year to send a child to school. Along with medical cards for children and children's allowance that means a family with 2 children is getting around €20k a year in social transfers for their children alone.


The Horseman said:


> I still believe state benefits will be reduced. No party will risk this effecting the pensioner group. This group to their credit are the most vocal and willing to protest to protect themselves. But I believe all other receiptents will be impacted.


So the wealthiest cohort at the lowest risk of living in poverty will be protected but the poor and vulnerable will be hit. That because the wealthiest cohort are vocal and vote.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2022)

Leper said:


> "if" being the important word . . . and as I pick out my horses before I visit the bookies later this morning I have more confidence on my Saturday Yankee showing a profit than I have in the "market correcting itself" ever, never mind in 3 years like suggested above.
> 
> In a short few years time we'll all be enduring the noise of sites being cleared for trailer parks. That's the only "certainty" running today, I regret to say.


I hope you pick the horses with more care than you use to form your opinions on housing. If governments had stayed out of the market (not printed lots of money) then your house and mine would be worth a lot less.


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