# Will the bank take back the keys?



## coleman (10 Jan 2013)

Hi all,

I'm just looking for some more advice please - I'm so so sorry if you are all sick of me and this - I am very sick and tired to the bone of it myself. (Earlier thread is here)

As mentioned above, and as Brendan has pointed out on his post about our situation, I said, by the end of this year (being 2012) I would hand back the keys (this is really getting crazy altogether now). I've been reading if I hand back the keys that before doing this I need to get a letter of unsustainability from the lender in order to get rent allowance/supplement (whatever it's called). 
The only real correspondence in the last few months has been for me to come up with a proposal to them. I have a couple:
Hand back the keys if they put in writing that they will write off the shortfall (at this stage we are talking 130-160k
Or I'll try to sell first (I have offered this numerous times) and their reply is to talk to their solicitor if/when I receive an offer (I then asked them following this - if I got a sale price less the mortgage balance would they agree to this being full and final settlement - I have never got a reply to that)
Last option is to ask them to write down the mortgage balance to approx 100k 

They seem now to be sending generic letters from the same girl in their legal dept asking me to come up with a proposal - these are my proposals - I don't know whether to write this back to her or to just literally ask her straight out - what instead are their proposals to sort this all out?

What would you guys suggest? Just ask her straight out - what are their proposals or what?

Sorry again - this is still going on and on, my life can't move on, we are stuck in limboland - the sad part is I really just don't care any more about it all....I used to - I used to have my principles, I used to have my morals, I used to have my integrity - but that has now all gone out the window - any advice, if I should reply with my proposals as outlined above or should I throw it back to them instead, and ask them, what the hell are their proposals??

Thank you all - again.

Coleman


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## Dr.Debt (10 Jan 2013)

First thing.....Remember, you're not alone. Theres lots of people in the same situation and worse.

The new Personal Insolvency Act was passed into law at the end of December. Its not operational yet but the good news is that this law will force banks to get their act together and come up with their own "workable" proposals and solutions.

In the meantime, Pay what you can and sit tight. If the bank want proposals, send them proposals.(and keep a copy of everything) Theres nothing more you can do.


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## Bronte (10 Jan 2013)

coleman said:


> I've been reading if I hand back the keys that before doing this I need to get a letter of unsustainability from the lender in order to get rent allowance/supplement (whatever it's called).


 
You need to be very careful on this, we discussed it on another thread recently. Maybe if you posted the specific question about rent supplement on the social welfare thread one of the experts in that area will clarify for you. There is a possibility if you hand back the keys/property that social welfare rules will then disallow you the supplement. 

I've been talking to some legal people recently and there is since November some movement by banks in letting people sell, but they won't do it in writing. They'll let you sell and they'll just ignore the shortfall apparently. So maybe your bank wants you to put it on the market and when you get an offer maybe they will agree to that and then they'll ignore the shortfall. You'd want to be very clear that out of the proceeds of sale the bank agrees that the auctioneer and your solicitor can be paid and any other costs associated with a sale as presumable you've no money, things like rates, NPPR etc.


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## coleman (13 Jan 2013)

Thanks Dr. Debt and Bronte.

I've checked up on the letter of unsustainability - it's not 100% clear on the housing authority website, whether one needs this in writing from the lender in order to get RA, but I decided to also check up the Code of Conduct, and it states that the borrower has the right to ask the lender for certain documentation and that the lender has to forward these requests to the borrower. I believe that there is also a day count mentioned, like 5 or 10 days or something similiar.

As the housing authority isn't very clear, I think the best bet in this case, or for anyone else who may end up down this route, is to ask the lender for this letter. No harm in having it anyway.

Thanks to both of you for your help/advice.


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## Dr.Debt (14 Jan 2013)

Coleman, Have a further think about the UK bankruptcy option.

If you were my sister, that's the direction I would be pointing you in.

Even looking at the dates on your posts, the years are slipping by and you are no closer to a resolution and the bank is still only looking for proposals !!
You'd have to ask yourself at this stage whether they are serious or not.

Don't devote any more of your life to that type of misery. I have a feeling that the banks will continue to grind you down and it will go on and on.

If you pack up and go to the UK, it will all be over inside a year and you start with a fresh sheet.

Dont worry too much about the bankruptcy stigma. I have a feeling that 10 years down the line people will just see it as part of the huge problem that the economy went through at that time. I doubt that there will be much of a blame game against individual debtors who went bankrupt. You're in good company. Lots of big names have taken the UK bankruptcy option already and you can be sure these same big names will be seeking concessions from future governments for Celtic Tiger bankrupts.

The main thing is that as soon as you have gone bankrupt, you are then on the road to recovery building up your credit rating from there. Whats the point in hanging around and haggling with the banks. There's absolutely nothing in that scenario for you.From what you've told us you both did your best to sort this out. You wrote to them, You spoke with them and You met them. All to no avail. The banks have their own agenda, their own good reasons why they haven't acted against you before now. Don't become part of their agenda. Make your own plan. Do whats best for you and the family.

Hopefully you will both pick up a job and then you're on your way.....Best of luck.


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## coleman (14 Jan 2013)

Thanks Dr. Debt - I agree with you.

I would go the UK bankruptcy route - I even said to my husband about how we could as such stay in Ireland, but move North. He still won't do it - it has come up in conversation on and off, but he is so against it, I'm at the stage where I have given up fighting him on the pro's and con's of it - not that there are many cons.

I'm not worried anymore about the stigma of it all or even the repercussions of it - I've gone beyond that. I actually feel at times that this is happening to someone else and not us - maybe that's the way my mind needs to work in order to get through this. And yes, you are right - the years are slipping by and we are not getting any younger.

I thought of moving myself up North, so I could travel down South at the w/ends to see the kids - to try and get a job up there and set up a COMI for myself so at least I could declare myself bankrupt, but problem with that is, as someone pointed out to me - is that no judge would believe that a mother had left her children with her husband and was living and working on a full time basis in the North, so there is not much room for me to maneouver that one either.

Unless you think otherwise??

I know I'm saying this to everyone all the time on this website, but thank you for any help.


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## Dr.Debt (14 Jan 2013)

The other option is The new Insolvency Act

This should be up and running in the 2nd Quarter. If you go this route you will be on the hook for six years and its hard to see how it would trump a UK bankruptcy apart from being able to stay put in "Noddy land"

I don't know if this helps but in my own case if I sometimes suggest to my wife to do "X", she will say no, she wants to do "Y" If I don't mention "X" for a while she invariably comes back later and says "what about "X". Give him a bit of space. he might come round.


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## SarahMc (14 Jan 2013)

Has your husband worked at all since the gift post. I'd imagine the grind of unemployment has taken it's toll. As a family have you considered emigrating, not just to declare bankruptcy, but to start a new life? Also has he considered working in the UK and travelling home regularly. Perhaps if you focussed not just on the debt, but on the employment situation he might be more amenable?


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## Kev (14 Jan 2013)

SarahMc said:


> Has your husband worked at all since the gift post. I'd imagine the grind of unemployment has taken it's toll. As a family have you considered emigrating, not just to declare bankruptcy, but to start a new life? Also has he considered working in the UK and travelling home regularly. Perhaps if you focussed not just on the debt, but on the employment situation he might be more amenable?



UK is has as much problems as Ireland regarding unemployment.  It is not easy now anywhere.  They are cutting housing benefit and also making people that are disabled go for assessment for work but there is no work available for them or anyone else. Apparently there is about half million jobs available and over 2 million unemployed.  Even shop jobs are now been classed as apprenticeship taking people on at that rate of pay.

If I were you,  when the band sends out computer generated letters to you I would just reply back referring them to your letters and meeting with them and your proposals how to pay back.  Also, tell them there has been no further changes in your circumstances.  Repeat this every time you get the computer bank letters. Also send your replies by recorded deliver and if you taken it to the bank get a receipt for it also.  You have to be very strong with the computer at banks and remember they have no feelings.


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## coleman (14 Jan 2013)

Thanks all.

Yes, the new insolvency act will be there - but as you say it's over 6 years and the bankruptcy route is so much easier, less painful and a lot quicker. I have given the space already I think - it's been definitely 3 years when it first came up, so I don't think he is going to budge, or maybe it's a case of that I'm too easy on him? But I don't think so. 

SarahMc - thanks for your advice, but I feel if he is not willing to even go to the North, that he is hardly willing to emigrate - however this has also come up previous, and as I said above - there is no budging this man.

Thanks Kev for your help/advice also.


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## 44brendan (14 Jan 2013)

UK Bankruptcy - No real benefit for those in mortgage difficulties. The cost of re-locating to the UK would not be wothwhile, unless liabilities and assets were reasonably substantial.
Mortgage problem ; - Currently being encountered by thousands of others. Unfortunately many banks are unprepared to address a solution such as "what will happen to the residual balance if you voluntarly sell the PDH". They appear to be waiting the introduction of the new Insolvency Law before addressing issues such as this.
Debt burden; - As previously said its a problem shared with many thousands of others. If you can't pay, then you can't pay. The Bank will ultimately be forced to write off a significant portion or all of residual loans where a property sale can be agreed. There is no real benefit to be had by the Bank taking legal action for residual balances of loans, unless there is a big uplift in the financial circumstances of the debtors. Having made the offer to the Bank, it's up to them to respond to it. Once you have made a reasonable response, ignore any correspondence not directly related to this offer. Response from Kev above is good advice.

This issue should not be keeping you awake at night. You (like all others in your position) will get over it and should be in a position to start over again with a clean slate in the medium term. The Banks have no direct interest in pursuing you and try not to worry about this. If you find that correspondence from the Bank is affecting your mental well-being, advise the Bank of that and they will back-off!!


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## Dr.Debt (14 Jan 2013)

The intangible benefits of UK bankruptcy alone are huge

1) You get the matter dealt with NOW
2) You are free to start your life again in 12 months
3) You start to sleep at night

One of the hardest things for debtors in this sorry mess is not knowing when the next phone call is coming from the bank, not knowing when the next bank letter comes through the front door and not knowing whats going to happen to them ultimately. The banks are very guilty of refusing to engage with debtors when it suits them. This is not acceptable especially where you leave people hanging on for years on end.

I don't really understand Brendan's comment that there is "no real benefit" for those in mortgage difficulties in opting for UK bankruptcy. 

UK Bankruptcy is a valid response to the way that the banks are mishandling the "workout". In this particular case the OPs husband will be able to write off 150K of negative equity and move on with his life.

The cost of this terrible situation is not just the cost in billions of euro (the bank measurement) but also the cost of what is being paid in human misery (ignored by the banks)

Brendan, Dont you work for a bank ?


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## Kev (14 Jan 2013)

Dr.Debt said:


> The intangible benefits of UK bankruptcy alone are huge
> 
> 1) You get the matter dealt with NOW
> 2) You are free to start your life again in 12 months
> ...



You can stop the phone calls by writing to the banks stating that you only want to communication in writing from now on and they should not to phone you anymore. If they continue to phone you, after they have received your letter, I am sure it would be classed as harassment and there must be something that you can do about harassment regardless of who is doing.

Make sure you get a receipt of all letters/correspondence to the banks and other lenders that you communicate with by letters. 
Best of Luck.


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## Time (14 Jan 2013)

A change of phone number does wonders.


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## Kev (14 Jan 2013)

Time said:


> A change of phone number does wonders.



No need to change your phone number as it will be another expense that is not needed.  Just tell your lender in writing not to phone you any more and for all communications to be in writing.  You want to be seen to be co-operating with the lenders. 

Hope you are not still paying interest on the loans, if you are then writ to lender asking them to stop the interest on the loans, it is pointless putting interest on top of interest, when cannot pay the original loan.  

I am sure someone knows the law about getting phone calls when the company has been told not to phone, this is called harassment.


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## coleman (14 Jan 2013)

Thanks all.

Re phone calls - I asked them a number of months ago in writing to not call me anymore and to write with their requests instead. They have complied with this from the minute I asked it.

Dr Debt - I 100% absolutely agree with you re the bankruptcy route.

Kev - thanks, I do keep copies and proof of everything I have sent and keep what they have sent me - it's all literally in date order in a lever arch file.

Unfortunately, this issue does keep me awake at night - I notice I go particularly bad, nearly insomnia like the day I receive any type of letter and I practically have zero sleep for a couple of days after.

I was put on anti-depressants by my doctor a few months ago (for a 4 month period) - I am now off them, and I have never told the bank this as I think they would think that this is a 'ploy'. It's I suppose one of these kinds of situations that one just has to try and get through.

I hope I don't sound flippant about my husband. He is a good man. The reason he is so against emigrating for any reason what so ever, is towards the end of the last recession Ireland had, he was forced into the position that he had to emigrate to get work for years. When he finally made it home, he swore blind, and still does, that he would never do it again. I hope this gives his side of things some clarity.


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## drs (15 Jan 2013)

coleman said:


> if I should reply with my proposals as outlined above or should I throw it back to them instead, and ask them, what the hell are their proposals??



I am not a solicitor, but as far as I recall there is some law that basically effectively prevents them from giving you a proposal.

They cannot tell you what you can pay, they can only keep telling you if your proposals are unacceptable/rejected until you magically hit on the proposal that they would like to tell you... 

If they were to tell you a proposal that you cannot meet, then they are screwed... if they tell you a proposal that you can easily meet, then they are screwed from the other side... the risk of telling you a proposal that is just on that fine line is too high (i.e. that they will fall over into the you cannot meet zone) so they will just keep on asking until your proposal rises to the absolute maximum that you can pay, then they will look for a few €€€ more and agree to that!

Fun times!


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## coleman (15 Jan 2013)

Fun times indeed Drs - thank you for your help.


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