# After Northern Ireland Bankruptcy and back in Ireland but with problems



## fliptzer (12 Apr 2014)

Hi all, 

Went to Northern Ireland and was declared bankrupt over a 16 months ago. One Irish bank in particular, wouldn’t accept the Northern Ireland bankruptcy order as I had mortgaged property with my ex in Dublin (who has since disappeared to somewhere in Australia). The bank hounded me for over a year.

I got my order of discharge from the Northern Ireland High Court and have since moved back to Dublin but the Irish bank is still sending letters saying I owe them money, etc. (now months after I’ve been discharged). 

I know that in the past, a UK bankrupt, who moved back to Ireland, would have had to apply to the Master of the High Court in Ireland (under SI No. 334/2002 European Communities (Personal Insolvency) Regulations 2012) to get the UK bankruptcy order and the UK discharge order accepted. Does anyone know if this is still the case? Or what I can do now to stop the bank hounding me?

I thought that UK bankruptcy orders automatically applied in Ireland due to Council Regulation (EC) No 1346/2000 but I’m confused as to how I can enforce a UK bankruptcy order and UK order of discharge in Ireland to stop the bank.

Any help/ideas would really help.


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## Time (12 Apr 2014)

Was the mortgage not dealt with by the official receiver in NI? I assume he knew about it and would have contacted the ROI bank?


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## fliptzer (13 Apr 2014)

The mortgage was included (I even told the bank in question I was going bankrupt) and the official receiver wrote to the Irish bank, informed them of the bankruptcy and appointment of receiver but the bank never wrote back to the receiver to state the amount outstanding (or the estimated shortfall if the property was sold). 

 Instead, the bank continued to write and phone me (instead of the receiver) for months to the stage that the official receiver's office told me to make a complaint to the police.   I threatened the bank with a criminal complaint and the phone calls stopped but not the written demands for payments as they claim that an NI bankruptcy doesn't apply to Irish property. 

 The official receiver in NI issued a notice of disclaimer of the property through the NI High Court, with the Irish bank, the Irish Property Registration Authority and the Irish Chief State Solicitors Officer on notice (and copied to all of them) but the Irish bank doesn't care and is still sending me bills, statements, demands, etc. Now that I'm discharged they're stressing me out.

I've recently checked the Irish Registry of Deeds (as the property is unregistered land) and the last entry is the deed of assignment with a mortgage. In other words, I'm still considered the 'legal owner' of the property despite the NI High Court issuing an order that effectively hands my share (as tenants in common) back to the bank and then subsequently been discharged (by the NI High Court) but the Irish bank is still insisting that I owe them money and they won't write off my 'share' of the mortgage. 

 The Irish bank has repeatedly, on record, stated that the NI bankruptcy doesn't apply to Irish property. Both the NI High Court and the official receiver say the opposite, that a NI bankruptcy does in fact apply to Irish property. 

 Now that I'm discharged, they're really, really, really doing my head in. I'm half tempted to phone up Joe Duffy lol

 Does any one know if there's a mechanism for enforcing an NI bankruptcy order and order of discharge in the Republic of Ireland? Or should it just automatically apply? 

 Any particular statutes, SI or Rules of the Superior Courts would really help.


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## Time (13 Apr 2014)

Time to see a solicitor I would think.


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## conceptual (13 Apr 2014)

Have you read the messages here re problems with 'Southerners' having their bankruptcies put on hold in 
the Belfast  court and did you have any such experience? 
Best of luck with the IIrish bank.


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## dub_nerd (13 Apr 2014)

Try Googling: 

Have a read of the first few matches. Looks to me like there is an EU Insolvency Regulation from 2000 which says that your bankruptcy must be automatically recognised across all member states. From the first Google hit:

"_All decisions taken by a court in a Member State that has jurisdiction in the main proceedings is basically recognised automatically in the other Member States without further review._"

From second Google hit:

"_The Regulation is based on the principle of 
universality, whereby only one main 
insolvency proceeding is opened against one 
debtor. The jurisdiction and applicable law 
depends on where the debtor has their ‘centre 
of main interests’. Court decisions rendered in 
the main proceedings are automatically 
recognised across the EU._"

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Apr 2014)

I would guess that the Irish bank does not have the systems to deal with it yet.

Hard to know what to do. Try taking a case to the Ombudsman here. Usually that wakes up the systems in the lenders to resolve the matter.


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## Bronte (14 Apr 2014)

Can you not just return the letters to the bank, don't open them and mark them return to sender.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Apr 2014)

Bronte said:


> Can you not just return the letters to the bank, don't open them and mark them return to sender.



I don't agree.

It's better to resolve these matters.  The OP wants to bring complete closure to this matter.

Brendan


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## TLO (14 Apr 2014)

First of all, it will be very difficult if not impossible for the Bank to take legal action against you.  If they were to try, you would have a very strong defence.  

A suggestion would be to write to the firm of accountants that audit the Bank's accounts.  You can pull their details from the Bank's filings in the Companies Office.  Write to the "Partner in Charge of the Audit" and advise that the audited accounts do not relect a "true and fair" description of their clients books as their client is refusing to charge off the amounts as per the bankruptcy orders of the NI High Court.


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## fliptzer (15 Apr 2014)

I'm thinking about the Irish Credit Bureau as my credit rating will never 'reset' unless the bank writes off the debt. This, in turn, causes ongoing credit problems as ICB checks go back 5 yrs. so despite bankruptcy, according to ICB, my debt is still there and will continue until its written off. 

I've been on to the OR's office in NI and this happens a lot to Irish people... So now I'm thinking of charging them with harassment, make a criminal complaint as well as a civil one, then seeking injunctive relief after giving them one last chance to accept it. If that doesn't work, then they've got a long fight on their hands.


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## fliptzer (15 Apr 2014)

Oh by the way, they were on notice of the bankruptcy, had ample opportunity to issue secondary proceedings in the Republic yet chose not to.


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## Jim2007 (15 Apr 2014)

TLO said:


> First of all, it will be very difficult if not impossible for the Bank to take legal action against you.  If they were to try, you would have a very strong defence.



Well we do not know the full facts, but it could be that the bank may feel that they are in a position to argue that the insolvency is a sham because the OP only went up North for a few months and then returned....


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## Time (15 Apr 2014)

They had their chance to oppose and they failed to do so. Hard cheese.


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## Jim Stafford (15 Apr 2014)

Unfortunately there is a wide disparity between the various banks as to how they deal with such cases. The disparity is caused by a combination of the tsunami of bad debts that has hit the banks combined with the fact that some banks have not adequately invested enough in training their staff.

 By law, every financial institution is required to maintain accurate records about their customers.  I would suggest that the best way to deal with this is to write to the Data Protection Unit for the bank and request them to properly amend their records to show that your debt with them is now being handled by the Official Receiver, and that all future correspondence should be sent to the Official Receiver. You should copy your letter to the relationship manager that you are currently receiving the letters from.  You should set a reasonable deadline, say 28 days, for them to confirm that they have amended their records, failing which you will make  a formal complaint to the Data Protection Commissioner.

 Jim Stafford


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## fliptzer (15 Apr 2014)

Long story short, went up north and set up my COMI. Gave notice to the bank I was going bankrupt, was adjudicated bankrupt, OR appointed, met with OR and was 100% upfront, OR took over my interest in the mortgaged property (joint mortgage), OR contacted everyone, OR disclaimed my interest in the mortgaged property (bank was notified but didn't do anything - didn't engage with OR).

 I stayed in NI until the end of bankruptcy (100% legit was living there, on welfare there, etc.), contacted OR before being discharged, everything was fine apart from one bank not recognising it but that was nothing to do with the OR. Got discharged with approval of the OR and a few months later moved back down to the Republic (and even notified OR of the move). 

 Bank now says I still owe them money. OR and NI High Court says I don't. 

 As main proceedings were opened in NI, the bank could have issued secondary proceedings in the Republic under the EU Bankruptcy Regulations but they chose not to. Upon discharge, main proceedings in the NI were closed and completed, it's a bit late to open secondary proceedings now in the Republic as they had their chance. 

 My understanding is that a NI bankruptcy automatically applies in the ROI due to EC bankruptcy regulations. Up to 2012, one had to apply to the Master of the High Court (in Ireland) for recognition of a foreign bankruptcy but from all the advice I've been given so far, is that this no longer applies - that a UK bankruptcy automatically applies in the ROI. But I don't know a way of enforcing it against the bank (ironically, there is a mechanism for the bank, or creditor, for enforcing a foreign order under Order 42A of the Rules of the Superior Court but that appears to only apply to appointed receivers and or creditors and not the bankrupt person - it also reads like the phone book)

 My advice to anyone going bankrupt is to be completely honest with everything, the OR will look for hidden accounts, properties, etc. so it'll only work against you if you don't play ball. Plus stay in the jurisdiction for the full year/until discharge. I had to get written permission from the OR to go to England for holidays (which wasn't a problem as I was upfront with them) and they were really nice to me.


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## stephnyc (15 Apr 2014)

fliptzer said:


> ..wouldn’t accept the Northern Ireland bankruptcy order as I had mortgaged property with my ex in Dublin (who has since disappeared to somewhere in Australia).


 
Apologies if I am repeating, but can the bank actually write off this mortgage if it is held jointly with another person who is not bankrupt? 

@Fliptzer - are the letters addressed to you or you AND your ex?

Just wondering if this is why it hasnt been finalised, and agree with Brendan that maybe the bank just doesnt have the systems to handle it. No help to the OP though!


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## fliptzer (15 Apr 2014)

stephnyc said:


> Apologies if I am repeating, but can the bank actually write off this mortgage if it is held jointly with another person who is not bankrupt?
> 
> @Fliptzer - are the letters addressed to you or you AND your ex?
> 
> Just wondering if this is why it hasnt been finalised, and agree with Brendan that maybe the bank just doesnt have the systems to handle it. No help to the OP though!



Yes, letters still address to both of us at my address.

 The whole writing off of a joint and several loan is a bit of weird. Bankruptcy severs joint and several liability, as well as, properties held as joint tenants into tenants in common. Therefore, the OR disclaims the bankrupts interest in the property (i.e.. disclaims the bankrupt's share of the property [tenants in common] and the bank follows up with the other joint owner [other tenant in common]). 

Therefore, by extension, one should, in theory (lol) write off the bankrupt's 'share' of the loan.

The difficulty is finding a mechanism under the EC Regulations on bankruptcy, and Irish law, rules of court, etc. for enforcing a foreign bankruptcy by another member state in the secondary member state (within which the property was held), i.e. NI bankruptcy order enforced in Republic, concerning property held in the Republic. This is a legal minefield as, from my reading of the EC regulation 1346/2000 [sorry I can't paste link] is that its supposed to be automatic and if the bank wants to issue secondary proceedings in Irleand they are fully entitled to do so. BUT, arguably, once the matter is closed in the first member state (NI) then it's too late for them to come back and have a second bite of the cheery so to speak.

There used to be a process in which a UK bankrupt would apply to the Master of the High Court in the Republic for recognition of the bankruptcy order and discharge, etc. but that seems to have been replaced with Order 42A of the Rules of the Superior Court which are unbelievably difficult to understand as they relate to Brussels 1 & 2, 1346/2000, 1998 Irish Act of enforcing foreign judgments/orders (for temporary relief), etc. etc. etc. 

The NI OR has told me that there are a huge number of Irish people who return back to the Republic only to be still hounded by the banks after their discharge.


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