# The Banks



## purple (30 Jun 2004)

I don't know if this is the right forum to post this on but I am interested in people's comments on why the banks, and AIB in particular, can;

Advise people to break the law by not declaring tax and setting up bogus non resident accounts and have no sanctions imposed on them. 

Evade tax themselves by withholding dirt tax and have a sweetheart deal worked out with revenue.

Retype peoples statements to overcharge them and have no sanctions imposed on them. They can't claim that it was a mistake or that it was the actions of individuals, it happened in more than one branch.

Overcharge in so many areas that it now seems to be the norm.

I am sure that the list goes on but that's all I can think of at the moment. 
The question is why has nothing been done to the banks about this? 
Why have no officials been arrested?
Why is there not a tribunal set up to investigate any of this?
Is it because the banks are just too big and the government and relevant civil servants scared to go near them?


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Jun 2004)

> Advise people to break the law by not declaring tax and setting up bogus non resident accounts and have no sanctions imposed on them.
> 
> Evade tax themselves by withholding dirt tax and have a sweetheart deal worked out with revenue.



Probably because the Credit Unions and An Post also heavily advertised "confidential" deposits during this period. The banks were not alone. 



> Retype peoples statements to overcharge them and have no sanctions imposed on them. They can't claim that it was a mistake or that it was the actions of individuals, it happened in more than one branch.



Was this the National Irish Bank case you are referring to? If this was systematic in any bank, the person responsible should go to jail



> Overcharge in so many areas that it now seems to be the norm.


I corrected an invoice today in my own business, where we had inadvertently charged a client €3,000 too much.
My phone supplier sent me an invoice today for €1,600 which should have been for €400
I think o2 and Vodafone have discovered that they have overcharged. 

It is not the norm, but people make mistakes regularly and if they are large mistakes, they are picked up very quickly. 



> The question is why has nothing been done to the banks about this?
> Why have no officials been arrested?


In NIB's case I don't know, as I suspect it was a criminal offence. But it may just have been a civil offence.
I don't think that there is any evidence of a criminal offence in any of the other banks. Tax evasion is a criminal offence, but it has not been the norm in Ireland to arrest people for it. If it was the norm, we would need an extra 500,000 Gardai.



> Is it because the banks are just too big and the government and relevant civil servants scared to go near them?



No, it's because people don't think for themselves about these issues. They jump to conclusions based on newspaper headlines. 

Brendan


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## Tall Chapy (30 Jun 2004)

*Sorry Brendan, I must disagree..*

Knowingly advising people to open bogus non resident account is against the law, and those responsible for facilitating the commiting of these offences should be prosecuted. 
 The question should be why have none of the banks been 'raided'. Have the relevant authorities not got the power to raid the banks, credit unions..etc.If they have not got the power to raid the banks, why have they not got the power to raid the banks.etc..Why have the so-called elected representatives of the people not given these powers to the relevant authorities. The nearest we ever got to the truth was the DIRT inquiry (and this now seems to be blocked as the Dail committees cannot give verdict)and correct me if I am wrong Brendan, but was it no until Mary Harney appointed inspectors to go in, before anything was brought into the public domain via the DIRT inquiry.

So which meant at the time that there was no independent (of government)authority to go in and inspect what was happening. All the power was held by Government who could decide when or how to act or when the public outcry got too loud.
How many millions were collect from the DIRT, yet nobody went to jail..how bad must it get before someone is held responsibile or accountable.

and finally..


> In NIB's case I don't know, as I suspect it was a criminal offence. But it may just have been a civil offence.I don't think that there is any evidence of a criminal offence in any of the other banks. Tax evasion is a criminal offence, but it has not been the norm in Ireland to arrest people for it. If it was the norm, we would need an extra 500,000 Gardai.


Why question would be 
Why is it a civil offence, when it should be a criminal offence.
Why has it not been the norm to arrest people for tax evasion.
If we need an extra 500,000 Gardai how come our elected representatives have not chased this more vigourously. Tax Evasion runs into the billions in this country. If a bank is robbed every day for the next year. There will be teams of Gardai co-ordinated to catch the criminals, yet when it comes to tax evasion where are the gardai, surely they should play a more integrated role with revenue.


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## purple (30 Jun 2004)

*Re.Re the banks*

Brendan,


> Probably because the Credit Unions and An Post also heavily advertised "confidential" deposits during this period. The banks were not alone.


 I agree with you there, the credit unions have campaigned vigorously for years to keep their customers accounts confidential. This seems to be a kind of nod and wink to say it's all right for the little guy to evade tax. There is no other reason for them to take such a strong stance on this. The issue is, does that make the dirt tax settlements that have been made OK?


> Was this the National Irish Bank case you are referring to? If this was systematic in any bank, the person responsible should go to jail


 Yes it was the NIB case, thanks, I couldn't remember what bank it was. I don't know if it was policy in NIB to forge statements but from recollection it happened in more than one branch. 


> It is not the norm, but people make mistakes regularly and if they are large mistakes, they are picked up very quickly.


 The banks are not just any business, they are licensed by the state because of the importance of the function they carry out and a high level of integrity is implicitly required from them in their dealings with those in society who are not equipped to check that their bank does.


> No, it's because people don't think for themselves about these issues. They jump to conclusions based on newspaper headlines.


 I agree that there is a bit of a media frenzy on this issue. I think the AIB currency overcharging affair was a nothing story. It's the sloppy was in which they carry out their business. In my company we overcharge the odd time but we also undercharge as well. I havn't heard of any cases where the bank has systematically undercharged it's customers. 


> Tax evasion is a criminal offense, but it has not been the norm in Ireland to arrest people for it


 I agree but why is the revenue going after the little guys now and not looking at the banks? I am not talking about arresting them I am talking about applying the same standards and penalties to the banks that are being applied, rightly, to private business.


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Jun 2004)

*Re: Re.Re the banks*

Back in the eighties,everyone knew about the extent of bogus non resident accounts.  It wasn't just one maverick branch of a bank which did it. The government of the time knew. The Revenue knew. The Central Bank knew. They felt that if they clamped down on it, the money would simply leave the country.

The climate hasn't changed that much. 

Everyone knows that the An Post and Credit Union savings are not being declared for tax purposes. Are people suggesting that we should have a public enquiry in 20 years time and jail the staff of An Post and the Credit Unions who highlight the confidentiality of these accounts? 

Brendan


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## purple (30 Jun 2004)

*They knew then*



> Back in the eighties,everyone knew about the extent of bogus non resident accounts. It wasn't just one maverick branch of a bank which did it. The government of the time knew. The Revenue knew. The Central Bank knew. They felt that if they clamped down on it, the money would simply leave the country.


 I agree completely, so why are the revenue and the media now going after the people who had the money in the banks, who would have taken it out of the country, and not going after the banks. 


> Everyone knows that the An Post and Credit Union savings are not being declared for tax purposes. Are people suggesting that we should have a public inquiry in 20 years time and jail the staff of An Post and the Credit Unions who highlight the confidentiality of these accounts?


 No, I am suggesting that it should be stopped now. I don't believe that you should be gone after for tax evasion in the past that got a tacit nod from that powers that be at the time. Which is what is happening now.

Why is it that the person who evaded the tax is penalised but the institution and it's employees who advised that person to evade tax are not?


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## rainyday (30 Jun 2004)

The banks simply reflected societies attitudes of the time. Let's not pillory the banks when the majority of us are very happy to get a 'price for cash' discount from our house painter.

If we expect the banks & revenue to start taking tax evasion seriously, let's lead by example ourselves.


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## purple (30 Jun 2004)

*Re. rainyday*



> The banks simply reflected societies attitudes of the time.


I agree,  but again I have to ask why we pillory the tax evaders of that time and not the banks. Surly what is good for one is good for the other.


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## Spacer (30 Jun 2004)

*..*

The Revenue are all about, well, .....revenue.  If they can come to a settlement with the banks they may consider this more efficient than painstakingly identifying their true liability and pursuing them through the courts for payment. 

They make these compromises on a daily basis with individuals and other businesses, but with the banks it's just more newsworthy.


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## Tall Chapy (1 Jul 2004)

*Slippery slope......*

So using the same comparison,
Pubs selling under age people drink/cigarettes is ok, once it reflects societies attitudes of the time !!.
I could go on as it is only the thin end of the wedge.

I do agree that there was a case of having one hand over the eye, not wanting to see what was going on. But we votes in public representatives and Gardai/revenue to ensure that someone is keeping an eye on the ball.The question I ask why was nothing put in place ie a grown up watchdog version of IFSRA in the 1980's or 90's. IFSRA on 1st may 2003 with hardly any teeth. You would think after 20/30 years of tax evasion that the first thing you would do is give it teeth to deter tax evasion.
Brendan, it is true there was some fear that the money would leave the country. But 20 years on, and the public purse bulging.Still little has been done.

Today, I could not believe Seamus Brennan's cavalier attitude towards the public pursue...I maybe stretching it here as I do not have his script in front of me, but it went something like, "ahhh..it took the NRA a few years to get it's act together and come up with an exact costing policy...They implement this about 2/3 years ago." So for the previous 10 years they were making a balls of it !!! At the public purses expense !!. I am well sure if it was coming out of their own pocket their costings would have been correct 15 years ago !!


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## rainyday (1 Jul 2004)

*Re: Slippery slope......*

Hi TC - I didn't say it was OK [I thought everyone on AAM knew my views on tax evasion by now] I'm just saying that it is the height of hypocracy to set a different standard for banks & politicians to that which we set for ourselves. I really don't think there is much of a public appetite to truly address tax evasion. Sure - we all moan at the 'fat cats' who get listed in the Revenue quarterly list, but most of us are still delighted to get a 'price for cash' knowing well that this means we are complicit in tax evasion.

I did read an interview with the Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners where he stated the reason why they are only starting to catch these tax dogders now is that they had no real powers to go into the banks and gather the relevant information until the legislation changed in 1999.


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## purple (7 Jul 2004)

*Re: Slippery slope......*

rainyday;





> I really don't think there is much of a public appetite to truly address tax evasion. Sure - we all moan at the 'fat cats' who get listed in the Revenue quarterly list, but most of us are still delighted to get a 'price for cash' knowing well that this means we are complicit in tax evasion.


 I agree, we have had that discussion before and yes you have made your views on tax evasion clear on AAM. For the most part I agree with you. My issue here is that it seems to be OK to go after the "fat cats", be they business people, big farmers or politicians and yet the organisations that facilitated most of it and profited from all of it are virtually untouched.
Spacer; I hadn't thought of it that way but now that I do you are right, I am focusing my criticism on the wrong people; it is the media and political parties (not just FF, ALL major parties) that have negated their duties to the public. It is easier for Fintan O'Toole and Gene Kerrigan to have a go at high profile individuals and be sensationalist than to really explore the attitudes of the Irish people as a whole to tax evasion and corruption.
I would contend that the richer people are, in general, the less likely they are to evade tax or break the law.


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