# ESRI: 17% of people receiving rent support from taxpayer are in top half of earners!



## Brendan Burgess (26 May 2022)

More housing madness today. 






						More than half of renting households receive support for housing costs
					






					www.esri.ie
				




Almost 300,000 (293,673) households received support for their housing costs in 2020, up from 134,973 in 1994. This amounts to 16 per cent of households overall and 54 per cent of those renting. Over this time there has been a shift away from the direct provision of support – through local authority and approved housing body owned accommodation – towards indirect subsidisation of housing costs in the private rental sector, with Housing Assistance Payment (HAP), Rental Accommodation Scheme (RAS) and Rent Supplement (RS) combined assisting around one-in-three supported renters today, compared to just one-in-five in the early 1990s.

These are among the main findings of a new report published today by the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI) examining housing supports for low-income renters.

Other key findings of the report include:


*Both direct and indirect supports do a huge amount to improve affordability for the households receiving them*: Despite their lower levels of income, we estimate the median rent-to-income ratio – a key metric of housing affordability – is 0.147 for supported renters compared to 0.230 for unsupported renters. The greater affordability of housing for supported renters remains after controlling for dwelling type, location and quality.               
*There are questions about how well targeted these housing supports are: *many low-income renters receive no support for their housing costs and face high rent-to-income ratios, while almost one-in-five (16.7 per cent) of supported renters are in the top half of the income distribution.
*The qualification criteria for housing supports have become more restrictive in recent years: *we estimate that the share of households eligible to apply to their local authority for support with housing costs fell from 46.8 per cent to 33.9 per cent between 2011 and 2019, largely because of a freeze to most income limits.
*The rent limits for HAP cover a very small share of properties, particularly in cities for single adults*: across Dublin, only 6 per cent of one-bedroom tenancies registered in 2020 came under the maximum rent allowed for single adults claiming HAP, while only 7 out of 31 local authorities had at least a quarter of one-bedroom tenancies below these limits (see infographic). This is in part because rents for new tenancies increased by 24 per cent between 2017 – when these rent limits were last revised – and 2020, but it also reflects differences in coverage across counties when introduced.
*There is substantial variation across local authorities in the level of support provided to otherwise identical households*: more than 9-in-10 supported renters have their rent contributions– and so their level of support –determined by their local authority’s differential rent scheme. These vary hugely in their design across local authorities, leading otherwise identical households to receive different levels of support. For example, a lone parent with two children earning €25,000 per year would pay a contribution of just €226 per month in South Dublin County Council, €313 per month in Donegal but €450 per month in Meath (see infographic).


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## Brendan Burgess (26 May 2022)

I will study the report later.

I wonder does it point out that if the state supports 50% of renters, it's bound to push up rents?


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## TRS30 (26 May 2022)

I find that heading amazing!


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## Peanuts20 (26 May 2022)

And yet, if you are in the top half of earners, can you afford to rent property in Dublin without support? In a lot of cases, I doubt it.


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## TRS30 (26 May 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> And yet, if you are in the top half of earners, can you afford to rent property in Dublin without support? In a lot of cases, I doubt it.



What kind of supports would they qualify for?


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## Purple (27 May 2022)

The average household income in Ireland is around €44k. That's plenty if you don't have to pay rent or a mortgage but it's not a lot if you do. A take-home income of around €3000 a month won't rent a house in most urban areas in this country.
The main driver of rent price increases is the State subsidies on rent. In this scenario I've no problem with working people getting the same handouts as people who don't work or are grossly under employed. It does kind of blow up the myth of the squeezed middle getting nothing back for the taxes they pay. They might be squeezed but it isn't by the State.


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## Paul O Mahoney (27 May 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I will study the report later.
> 
> I wonder does it point out that if the state supports 50% of renters, it's bound to push up rents?


I think that's the implication I only read through it very quickly. Approximately 300,000 renters 54% getting help , in the appendix I thought I saw Cork Co. Councils max annual amount for HAP almost 24k or €2k a month. Even half that amount would be over 50% of average rents in Cork county.......

Landlords must be delighted with HAP


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## Purple (27 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I think that's the implication I only read through it very quickly. Approximately 300,000 renters 54% getting help , in the appendix I thought I saw Cork Co. Councils max annual amount for HAP almost 24k or €2k a month. Even half that amount would be over 50% of average rents in Cork county.......
> 
> Landlords must be delighted with HAP


€2k a month is the same as a €50k pay rise if it was earned income taxed at the marginal rate. . 
Social Housing tenants can avail of the Rent a Room scheme so that's another €12k net, or €24k gross if it was earned income taxed at the marginal rate. 
That means that someone on €36k a year on HAPS who is renting a room or two for a total of €1k a month has the same net income as someone fending for themselves on €100k a year.

'tis a great little country...


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## TRS30 (27 May 2022)

Purple said:


> €2k a month is the same as a €50k pay rise if it was earned income taxed at the marginal rate. .
> Social Housing tenants can avail of the Rent a Room scheme so that's another €12k net, or €24k gross if it was earned income taxed at the marginal rate.
> That means that someone on €36k a year on HAPS who is renting a room or two for a total of €1k a month has the same net income as someone fending for themselves on €100k a year.
> 
> 'tis a great little country...



I don't know whether to be angry or jealous!


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## Firefly (27 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Social Housing tenants can avail of the Rent a Room scheme


Another thing I'd get rid of. Someone not even paying the council for their almost free house can essentially sublet it tax free...


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## T McGibney (27 May 2022)

Firefly said:


> Another thing I'd get rid of. Someone not even paying the council for their almost free house can essentially sublet it tax free...


Do that though and you worsen the housing accommodation crisis. Total catch-22.


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## Purple (27 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Do that though and you worsen the housing accommodation crisis. Total catch-22.


If someone in a social housing unit has the space to rent a room then their social housing unit exceeds their needs and they should be moved to a smaller social housing unit.
Public assets should be used for the greatest public good. Assigning excess public capital to an individual for their personal use which they can then monetise is not a good use of that capital.


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## T McGibney (27 May 2022)

Purple said:


> If someone in a social housing unit has the space to rent a room then their social housing unit exceeds their needs and they should be moved to a smaller social housing unit.
> Public assets should be used for the greatest public good. Assigning excess public capital to an individual for their personal use which they can then monetise is not a good use of that capital.


I agree but the fact remains that if you disincentivise people from using the rent a room scheme, you ultimately add to homelessness.

It's one of a myriad of examples where housing policy failure has led to led to further policy failures and anomalies throughout the system.


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## Purple (27 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> I agree but the fact remains that if you disincentivise people from using the rent a room scheme, you ultimately add to homelessness.
> 
> It's one of a myriad of examples where housing policy failure has led to led to further policy failures and anomalies throughout the system.


Yep, HAPS is the main reason for rent inflation and the State buying up private housing for use as social housing is one of the main reasons houses are so expensive and we need to provide social housing.


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## Paul O Mahoney (27 May 2022)

Purple said:


> €2k a month is the same as a €50k pay rise if it was earned income taxed at the marginal rate. .
> Social Housing tenants can avail of the Rent a Room scheme so that's another €12k net, or €24k gross if it was earned income taxed at the marginal rate.
> That means that someone on €36k a year on HAPS who is renting a room or two for a total of €1k a month has the same net income as someone fending for themselves on €100k a year.
> 
> 'tis a great little country...


Hap costs the taxpayer 460m , another scheme,  can't remember its name €133m other schemes , have a cost but I'd look in detail,  and some local authorities schemes didn't give or have cost of the service .

But you can be assured that the total is huge somewhere between €800- €1bn would be my guess.( that's annually)

I don't know if "charities " that also provide accommodation including newly built houses are included,  I suspect not but I haven't read the report in detail.

Edit the figures are from 2020, so I'd imagine 2021 might be higher given the pandemic and people not earning full wages


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## The Horseman (27 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Hap costs the taxpayer 460m , another scheme,  can't remember its name €133m other schemes , have a cost but I'd look in detail,  and some local authorities schemes didn't give or have cost of the service .
> 
> But you can be assured that the total is huge somewhere between €800- €1bn would be my guess.( that's annually)
> 
> ...


HAP doesn't cost the tax payer €460m it costs significantly less than that as every €1 of rent half of it (for small landlords in the higher tax bracket goes back to the State and by extension the Taxpayer). 

It never ceases to amaze me how the true costs are not quoted rather the higher figs as people accept these higher figs as actual figs.


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## The Horseman (27 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> I agree but the fact remains that if you disincentivise people from using the rent a room scheme, you ultimately add to homelessness.
> 
> It's one of a myriad of examples where housing policy failure has led to led to further policy failures and anomalies throughout the system.


Everyone is quick enough to go after the private owner and tax them, put vacant property tax on them etc. 

Why not introduce the bedroom tax on social housing and actually do away with the differential rent scheme and actually charge rent akin to the market rate or some association to it rather than to some calculation based on household income which the max rent contribution is capped even if the household is considered wealthy. 

The recent newspaper article highlights that (I think a % of people in receipt of State handouts for housing are actually in the higher income bracket). I will stand corrected on this as I am quoting this from memory.


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## Paul O Mahoney (27 May 2022)

The Horseman said:


> HAP doesn't cost the tax payer €460m it costs significantly less than that as every €1 of rent half of it (for small landlords in the higher tax bracket goes back to the State and by extension the Taxpayer).
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how the true costs are not quoted rather the higher figs as people accept these higher figs as actual figs.


The report from the ERSI quotes that figure as does the HAP report from 2020.

This is the cost, if you want to calculate the net by deducting tax paid by landlords off you go. 

Either way the taxpayer pays for it.


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## The Horseman (27 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The report from the ERSI quotes that figure as does the HAP report from 2020.
> 
> This is the cost, if you want to calculate the net by deducting tax paid by landlords off you go.
> 
> Either way the taxpayer pays for it.


The fig is misleading.


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## Paul O Mahoney (27 May 2022)

The Horseman said:


> The fig is misleading.


It's not ,I understand your point but tax is circular if 52% returns via taxes those taxes are again used to fund HAP.

I believe its called a "zero sum game "


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## The Horseman (27 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It's not ,I understand your point but tax is circular if 52% returns via taxes those taxes are again used to fund HAP.
> 
> I believe its called a "zero sum game "


If you take a simple calculation of 50% tax on €460m then it's only "costing" the State €230m. 

Even if the tax is used to fund HAP again its still only costing the State €230m.


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## Paul O Mahoney (28 May 2022)

The Horseman said:


> If you take a simple calculation of 50% tax on €460m then it's only "costing" the State €230m.
> 
> Even if the tax is used to fund HAP again its still only costing the State €230m.


Nonsensical argument the taxpayer still pays. 

And your are assuming that all landlords are paying tax and if they are its marginal tax . If you can't provide an link please do.

Now that you are down the rabbit hole ,does the RAS scheme have that same " net " benefit, that's costing €133m a year. 

The purchasing of private housing has no " reliable " costing,  but is funded by the taxpayer. 


Where does it start and stop ? Pedantic posts on this thread mean nothing. 

A modern European country should have a functional housing policy,  yet billions are spent and nothing changes.....riddle us that.


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## The Horseman (28 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Nonsensical argument the taxpayer still pays.
> 
> And your are assuming that all landlords are paying tax and if they are its marginal tax . If you can't provide an link please do.
> 
> ...


If you read my post you would see I said if you take a simple example but sure feel free to go on a rant.

The RAS scheme is between the landlord, the tenant and the council exactly the same as the HAP only difference is the State is liable for the non payment of rent.

Renting from a private landlord is a business trans nothing more nothing less. The purchaser is paying for a service. 

If you want to make comparisons don't cherry pick those points to further your argument without the other points. EG in other countries people pay their rent and if they don't they are evicted quickly. That does not happen in Ireland. 

Even some social housing tenants are behind in their heavily subsidised rent. Oh and the cherry on that cake is it is almost impossible to evict them because it's political suicide to even suggest changing the ruled. 

Why does nothing change? It's because screwing the system is a badge of honour in Ireland and those who don't get screwed over and over again and no one in power is willing to call them out on it.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (28 May 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> *There is substantial variation across local authorities in the level of support provided to otherwise identical households*: more than 9-in-10 supported renters have their rent contributions– and so their level of support –determined by their local authority’s differential rent scheme. These vary hugely in their design across local authorities, leading otherwise identical households to receive different levels of support. For example, a lone parent with two children earning €25,000 per year would pay a contribution of just €226 per month in South Dublin County Council, €313 per month in Donegal but €450 per month in Meath (see infographic).


The Dublin local authorities are particularly low when it comes to differential rents charged.

You have to kind of peer through the analysis but the biggest issue seems to be is the "tenure-for-life" model of social housing.

If you qualify for social housing at a certain point in your life it's assumed that you will have that same need forever. Take for example a couple aged 25 where the wife is on minimum wage and the husband looks after the two kids. But the kids won't be young forever and if by 50 their household income is €100k they are still paying a 10% of income based rent.

Many (but not all) social tenants life in areas with good social cohesion and amenities - why would they leave and buy their own house?!

On the flipside there are lots of people who later in life are in need of social housing due to addiction, family issues, business collapse, etc, and they are generally stuck in the private rental market paying a large % of income.


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## Silversurfer (28 May 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> The Dublin local authorities are particularly low when it comes to differential rents charged.
> 
> You have to kind of peer through the analysis but the biggest issue seems to be is the "tenure-for-life" model of social housing.
> 
> ...


These are some very good points. However what shocked me most was why the parents of nearly 3,000 children had them when they could not provide the basics? Perhaps we need to highlight this issue more. Social housing should be built on council owned or acquired land. Traditionally housing estates that were built by the council cost less to buy when sold. This might solve the affordability problem for future owners. Another area for discussion could be why do we have 26 homeless organisations in Ireland? All with CEO’s, staff and substantial offices? One particular organisation comes to mind whenever I am near Christchurch.


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## Paul O Mahoney (28 May 2022)

Silversurfer said:


> Another area for discussion could be why do we have 26 homeless organisations in Ireland? All with CEO’s, staff and substantial offices? One particular organisation comes to mind whenever I am near Christchurch.


Wow I didn't think there was so many. How could any coherent strategy every be developed to solve this problem with this many, they would have their own agendas and of course be very slow to change anything that might affect their lives.


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## Silversurfer (28 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Wow I didn't think there was so many. How could any coherent strategy every be developed to solve this problem with this many, they would have their own agendas and of course be very slow to change anything that might affect their lives.


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## Silversurfer (28 May 2022)

The Peter McVerry Trust most recent statement showed that 44 million was spent on operational costs with 12.5 million on the acquisition of houses.  Figures for 2020.


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## Paul O Mahoney (28 May 2022)

Silversurfer said:


> The Peter McVerry Trust most recent statement showed that 44 million was spent on operational costs with 12.5 million on the acquisition of houses.  Figures for 2020.


And I suppose they are getting Grant's from all sorts of Government agencies, the Government has essentially outsourced the issue and it's now an industry. Mc Verry trust has a €100m balance sheet with staff costs of €30.

It says on its 2020 accounts it helped 10,000 find accommodation and 1250 into new homes a quick read seems to suggest that they received €30m in Grant's, ok they are restricted so would be used in the future, the county councils that they operate in seem to be the main funders.

Housing has been outsourced and people are profiting from it.


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## Purple (29 May 2022)

It should come as no surprise to anyone that we have a thriving homelessness industry in Ireland or that a substantial proportion of its income comes from the State.


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## Paul O Mahoney (29 May 2022)

Purple said:


> It should come as no surprise to anyone that we have a thriving homelessness industry in Ireland or that a substantial proportion of its income comes from the State.


And now there are calls to increase HAP with a report due to be released next month. 

If there are funds of this magnitude available for housing and nothing improves surly it's not difficult to conclude that something else needs to be done. 

And I doubt a change of government will change anything.


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## bipped (29 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And I suppose they are getting Grant's from all sorts of Government agencies, the Government has essentially outsourced the issue and it's now an industry. Mc Verry trust has a €100m balance sheet with staff costs of €30.
> 
> It says on its 2020 accounts it helped 10,000 find accommodation and 1250 into new homes a quick read seems to suggest that they received €30m in Grant's, ok they are restricted so would be used in the future, the county councils that they operate in seem to be the main funders.
> 
> Housing has been outsourced and people are profiting from it.



It would be interesting to see how much exactly the state is spending every year between hap, ras, direct leasing properties for 10/15/25 year terms, grants to threshold, simon, focus, mcverry trust, & the rest of the 26 homeless charities, plus the funding or grants given to the 520 ahb's like cluid, tuath, respond etc. Then add in the new developers subsidy. Plus the amounts being spent on buying units under part5 and councils buying additional housing in private developments, and one-off's properties being sold on the open market.
Sounds like a lot but maybe it's typical of how social housing is managed everywhere now. Comparisons with other EU countries and our nearest neighbour, and how they do things, would also be interesting. Maybe they have a better handle on it, ours seems completely messed up.


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## Paul O Mahoney (29 May 2022)

bipped said:


> It would be interesting to see how much exactly the state is spending every year between hap, ras, direct leasing properties for 10/15/25 year terms, grants to threshold, simon, focus, mcverry trust, & the rest of the 26 homeless charities, plus the funding or grants given to the 520 ahb's like cluid, tuath, respond etc. Then add in the new developers subsidy. Plus the amounts being spent on buying units under part5 and councils buying additional housing in private developments, and one-off's properties being sold on the open market.
> Sounds like a lot but maybe it's typical of how social housing is managed everywhere now. Comparisons with other EU countries and our nearest neighbour, and how they do things, would also be interesting. Maybe they have a better handle on it, ours seems completely messed up.


I'm going have a go but first I need to get the historical data start in 2010 so I'll have 10 years data but reading the ESRI report there isn't cost for all services.

I'll use the Esri report from last week as the starting point but I already know that what they reported is different for example in HAP their figures are slightly less for 2020 than what HAP reported. And I believe the Qtr4 figure for 2021 has grown again.p

Forecasting might need a bit of science from other posters but it might start a debate that we can actually see the figures rather than having to trawl through multiple reports from multiple agencies and charities.


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## T McGibney (30 May 2022)

The Horseman said:


> HAP doesn't cost the tax payer €460m it costs significantly less than that as every €1 of rent half of it (for small landlords in the higher tax bracket goes back to the State and by extension the Taxpayer).


Not true. 52% of rental profits, not total rents, go back to the State in taxes.





The Horseman said:


> If you take a simple calculation of 50% tax on €460m then it's only "costing" the State €230m.
> 
> Even if the tax is used to fund HAP again its still only costing the State €230m.


Off the scale levels of untrue.


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## The Horseman (30 May 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Not true. 52% of rental profits, not total rents, go back to the State in taxes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed it is rental profits and not rent. There is so little left to "write off" in expenses. 

What is "off the scale levels of untrue"


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## T McGibney (30 May 2022)

The Horseman said:


> There is so little left to "write off" in expenses.


Really?
Mortgage Interest, repairs & maintenance expenses, insurance, mortgage protection, Letting Agency fees, Property Management fees, advertising costs, legal fees in relation to letting, other once-off or recurring expenses, capital allowances on furniture fittings & contents.



The Horseman said:


> What is "off the scale levels of untrue"


Your claim that 52% of rents go back to the State in tax and that HAP only costs the State half of what is spent on it.


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## Sophrosyne (30 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Forecasting might need a bit of science from other posters but it might start a debate that we can actually see the figures rather than having to trawl through multiple reports from multiple agencies and charities.


Good for you!

However, it's worth bearing in mind that people who need housing are not an homogenous group.

The McVerry Trust, for instance, is mainly concerned housing those with long-term addiction and mental health issues who _also _require long-term support.

I suppose the question is value for money as much as cost.

It is possible that a charity, with State support, might achieve better outcomes.


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## Purple (30 May 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> Good for you!
> 
> However, it's worth bearing in mind that people who need housing are not an homogenous group.





Sophrosyne said:


> The McVerry Trust, for instance, is mainly concerned housing those with long-term addiction and mental health issues who _also _require long-term support.


I find Charities operating within the Homelessness Industry are mainly concerned with making political points.


Sophrosyne said:


> I suppose the question is value for money as much as cost.


It is indeed.


Sophrosyne said:


> It is possible that a charity, with State support, might achieve better outcomes.


There is a proliferation of Charities within the Homelessness Industry. I very much doubt that they are offering value for money. I suspect there is massive duplication, inefficiency and waste.

Edit: according to the London Times (Paddy edition) there are 27 charities providing food to homeless people in Dublin.
The Dublin Regional Homeless Executive said that Dublin's 4 Councils spend €159 million in 2020 feeding homeless people. That's €30 a week per person for 10,000 people. There are under 100 rough sleepers in Dublin. Where'd everyone else come from?


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> Good for you!
> 
> However, it's worth bearing in mind that people who need housing are not an homogenous group.
> 
> ...


Absolutely I started just trying to find who's who , it's like whack a mole they keep popping up......but one thing I gleaned the spend for 2022 is €4bn where that disappears to will be fun to find.


Had to come out and buy ink reports are 80 pages with a lot of smiles but the details are in the accounts,  so print those and tie back to the 4 bn .........ha.


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

Purple said:


> I find Charities operating within the Homelessness Industry are mainly concerned with making political points.
> 
> It is indeed.
> 
> ...


Well its huge money,  the one with the  Irish name cluid? is another 100m balance sheet but it has 650m in debt it very complex,  some of the funding I noticed was at 3.25% AIB and other banks I never heard of.....of course this is all underwritten by the Government. Assets are €1.2 bn but they use an amortisation calculation that will need a bit of understanding.

That one had 60m turnover with 45m ish expenses.

All are clgs too but I understand that as I set up the charity a few years back and the accounts must follow Frs2 and the Sorp, and the regulators requirements 

The garden is done a few hours from 5am to 11/12 will kill the morning


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

One observation I'll make theres a lot of money in this and I doubt that anyone will want to hear or even coordinate a holistic approach........

Theres going to be more money thrown at this in the coming months , I believe a HAP review is due and recipients are already 6% more than 2020.


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## Purple (30 May 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well its huge money, the one with the Irish name cluid? is another 100m balance sheet but it has 650m in debt it very complex, some of the funding I noticed was at 3.25% AIB and other banks I never heard of.....of course this is all underwritten by the Government. Assets are €1.2 bn but they use an amortisation calculation that will need a bit of understanding.


In effect is this just off the books borrowing by the State?


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

Purple said:


> I find Charities operating within the Homelessness Industry are mainly concerned with making political points.
> 
> It is indeed.
> 
> ...


I don't want to sound cruel here but having spent 2 years officially in the charity industry,  "once if free ,everyone wants it".


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## Sophrosyne (30 May 2022)

I think we should let @Paul O Mahoney do his work first.


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> I think we should let @Paul O Mahoney do his work first.


No pressure now...


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

Purple said:


> In effect is this just off the books borrowing by the State?


Yep clgs are legal entities covered by company law. Its easy for Government to outsource this and keep the taxpayer ignorant of the facts.

One report today said,  and I paraphrase,  " we are delighted to receive €175m to provide 4350 housing units,  my sums aren't great but that's just over 40k a unit....take away "expenses" and its probably €10k , that's the Housing Agency report.

And this is just one of 27 large ones, theres probably hundreds local schemes, clgs, partnerships??????

Money for old rope springs to mind


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## Sophrosyne (30 May 2022)

Paul, I assume you are going to take account of total costs, land acquisition, site development, legal costs, etc


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## Purple (30 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Edit: according to the London Times (Paddy edition) there are 27 charities providing food to homeless people in Dublin.
> The Dublin Regional Homeless Executive said that Dublin's 4 Councils spend €159 million in 2020 feeding homeless people. That's €30 a week per person for 10,000 people. There are under 100 rough sleepers in Dublin. Where'd everyone else come from?


Correction; According to this article there are around 4000 homeless people in Dublin at we are spending €40,000 a year or around €800 a week on each of them.


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## Sophrosyne (30 May 2022)

This is the Appropriation Account 2020 for Vote 34 (Housing, Local Government and Heritage) which may be useful.
It is the latest I could find.


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> This is the Appropriation Account 2020 for Vote 34 (Housing, Local Government and Heritage) which may be useful.
> It is the latest I could find.


2020 is the latest for all of them as the are clgs, so they have an extended reporting cycle


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> Paul, I assume you are going to take account of total costs, land acquisition, site development, legal costs, etc


Yes in fairness those who are acquiring land and all auxiliary costs are giving detailed notes on each spend. But I've only looked at a few in summary.

Should have added that under CLG status if the company was to cease the assets would transfer in full to a " similar " charity " and failing that the relevant ministry can take control of the assets.

So at least the taxpayer is getting good assets that will be held.


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 May 2022)

Purple said:


> Correction; According to this article there are around 4000 homeless people in Dublin at we are spending €40,000 a year or around €800 a week on each of them.


I think homeless is higher but the actual has never been agreed as many only count their clique. 

I saw that but I think that 40k is fully loaded with costs etc.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

Just when you think you know something you find something else pops up.

On Feb 1st 2021 saw the birth of AHBRA, Associated Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority with a budget of €1.2m for 2021 and has 21 staff.

I will allow anyone interested to search them and understand its remit to me it's just another layer of bureaucracy but I'll allow others form there own view.

All AHBs must register with this body and further up this thread someone posted that there were 27 AHBs well based on the register,  which is downloadable as an excel spreadsheet , has 450 organisations that must be regarded as AHBs and registration appears to be still open.

Some of this are local AHBs and include single buildings such as refuge buildings.

I'm not going to speculate on what if any the smaller organisations get by way of funding but I think its reasonable to assume that some funding would be forwarded probably via Local Authorities or Local HSE offices.

Since this was only set up in Feb 21 they probably won't be reporting anything of substance until later this year.

Finally it's safe to say that most AHBs are CLGs and would be regulated by the Charity Regulator but now are additionally Regulated by this Authority.

The AHBRA also mentions in its Strategic Report that it will also be assisting Landlords and Tenants alike, and yet we have the RTB .

Then there is the Housing Agency which seems to be very similar to this new Authority. One thing I did find from its publications is that apparently to apply for housing assistance the family/ household income must be under €54k.

Well the only good thing is that I don't need to find out who many AHBs there are. And we now know that 4bn is the figure Central Governments budget for this part of housing, Ill have more detailed look at the larger charities over the next few days,of course HAP and other direct payments will need to be looked at too.

I find it incredible that for a country of 5m we have 450 AHBs but have at multiple Government agencies involved in administration of social housing really begins to shine a light on the amount of paper pushing that is happening.  

While it's not exactly ideal to have over 10,000 people deemed homeless it's far from ideal to have hundreds of organisations assisting and billions being spent on a problem that isn't getting better..

During my search I came across an article from 2017 in the Irish Times and while it covers all charities,  it was amazing to see that in some larger charities Government funding was less that costs, including salaries


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> This is the Appropriation Account 2020 for Vote 34 (Housing, Local Government and Heritage) which may be useful.
> It is the latest I could find.


Thanks for this


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## Purple (1 Jun 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I think homeless is higher but the actual has never been agreed as many only count their clique.
> 
> I saw that but I think that 40k is fully loaded with costs etc.


The national figure I saw was 10,000. 4,000 was the figure for Dublin where the €159 million was spent.


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## Sophrosyne (1 Jun 2022)

When your herculean task is completed, perhaps it should be sent to the Expenditure and Law Reform department whose brief is to oversee public spending.

Or perhaps we need to revive An Bord Snip to cut out obvious duplication of effort in housing.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> When your herculean task is completed, perhaps it should be sent to the Expenditure and Law Reform department whose brief is to oversee public spending.
> 
> Or perhaps we need to revive An Bord Snip to cut out obvious duplication of effort in housing.


I still own the rights and name of " Profit before People " my sketch political party. 

Our slogans are a bit rude but resonate with many hardworking people


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> The national figure I saw was 10,000. 4,000 was the figure for Dublin where the €159 million was spent.


I might be confusing this with the Housing Agency who spent €175m on assisting 4302 which works out at roughly the same. 

This is something else that's driving me a bit mad as there are multiple agencies reporting figures that are very similar in both amounts and people helped. 

I'll try and get clarity but as each report is invariably 60-80 pages with the usual amount of guff its difficult to get actual facts.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (1 Jun 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> This is something else that's driving me a bit mad as there are multiple agencies reporting figures that are very similar in both amounts and people helped.


This Oireachtas publication from March 2022 is the best I've seen at pulling together the info from various sources. It puts spend on social housing delivery and supports at a bit under €3bn in 2021, more than tripled from 2014.

See Figure 2.


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## Sophrosyne (1 Jun 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> All AHBs must register with this body and further up this thread someone posted that there were 27 AHBs well based on the register, which is downloadable as an excel spreadsheet , has 450 organisations that must be regarded as AHBs and registration appears to be still open.


That’s correct. The Housing, Local Government and Heritage Dept. distributes the funds to the LA’s and Approved Housing Bodies.

The Social Protection Department also provides a rent supplement.

This is the Appropriation Account 2020 for Vote 37 (Social Protection)

See pages 23 and 29 for Rent Supplement figures.

To put some frame around this, you could start with the different forms of housing assistance:


 *Nature of Assistance**Funded By*1Rented tenancy in property owned & managed by LAHLGH2Rented tenancy leased (long term leasing) for 10-20 years by LA or approved housing bodyHLGH3Housing Assistance Payment (HAP) where LA makes monthly payments to a private landlord, subject to t&cs including rent limits, on HAP tenant’s behalfHLGH4Rental Accommodation Scheme (RAS) tenancy where the LA arranges leases with private landlords for homesHLGH5Rented tenancy in homes owned and managed by an approved housing bodyHLGH6Specific accommodation for homeless people, older people and TravellersHLGH7Adapting existing local authority homes to meet specific household needsHLGH8Grants to increase accessibility in private homes for people with disabilities and special needsHLGH9Rent Supplement - means-tested payment for people living in private rented accommodation who cannot afford the cost from their own resourcesDSP

The confusion in the figure of those receiving assistance (not just the homeless) is likely caused by people receiving temporary assistance in the same year from different sources and so there might be multiple counting of the same people.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> That’s correct. The Housing, Local Government and Heritage Dept. distributes the funds to the LA’s and Approved Housing Bodies.
> 
> The Social Protection Department also provides a rent supplement.
> 
> ...


From that list we know that HAP cost in gross terms €465m in 2020 for around 60,000 renters and the average was €7800 per rental, I read that there are now closer to 62,000 and a report is due on this in the coming weeks and its likely that the amounts will increase.

From the ESRI report that started this thread RAS was €133m there was a similar amount mentioned for another scheme but I'll need to re-read the report in more detail . I beleve the ESRI report also mentioned that €350m was received by County Councils in rent , dont know if thats a year, and I'll verify this , the cost of supplying council houses wasnt given.


I was thinking that if we were to ascertain the cost of each of these, the number of households assisted and then who feeds into the 9 catergories above be it AHB or a charity it might clarify things further. Most AHBs are charitys anyway.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> This Oireachtas publication from March 2022 is the best I've seen at pulling together the info from various sources. It puts spend on social housing delivery and supports at a bit under €3bn in 2021, more than tripled from 2014.
> 
> See Figure 2.


Excellent thanks for the link. and its only 50 odd pages. This might save some time


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## Mocame (1 Jun 2022)

Just to point out the appropriation account and also the Oireachtas publication someone mentioned don't capture all public spending on housing, the only include 'voted expenditure' ie direct pubic spending voted as part of the national budget.  

In addition to this the government provides approx 3/4 bn in loans to approved housing bodies pa through the its housing lending arm - the Housing Finance Agency.  The Housing Finance Agency also lend for land purchase for local authority housing and for local authority mortgages. 

Approved housing bodies are treated as public bodies from the perspective of the national accounts, so all their borrowing is part of the national debt.  So between Housing Finance Agency loans and loans from banks and other sources they have probably adding around a billion pa to the national debt in recent years.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> The national figure I saw was 10,000. 4,000 was the figure for Dublin where the €159 million was spent.


The Figure in 2020 was 270m for the entire country.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

Mocame said:


> Just to point out the appropriation account and also the Oireachtas publication someone mentioned don't capture all public spending on housing, the only include 'voted expenditure' ie direct pubic spending voted as part of the national budget.
> 
> In addition to this the government provides approx 3/4 bn in loans to approved housing bodies pa through the its housing lending arm - the Housing Finance Agency.  The Housing Finance Agency also lend for land purchase for local authority housing and for local authority mortgages.
> 
> Approved housing bodies are treated as public bodies from the perspective of the national accounts, so all their borrowing is part of the national debt.  So between Housing Finance Agency loans and loans from banks and other sources they have probably adding around a billion pa to the national debt in recent years.


And do the Housing Finance Agency farm out some of this financing to the main banks? the reason I ask is that I saw in some report Cluid? that some of its finance was from AIB at 3.25%, or are AHBs allowed to raise finance themselves?

And thanks for adding another Agency to trawl through.


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## Sophrosyne (1 Jun 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I was thinking that if we were to ascertain the cost of each of these, the number of households assisted and then who feeds into the 9 catergories above be it AHB or a charity it might clarify things further. Most AHBs are charitys anyway.


Therein lies the problem - and not _just _with housing assistance.

It is possible, eventually, to cost the amount of each form of assistance.

The difficulty is ascertaining the number of individuals or family units that have received assistance. You can see from the list that it is possible to receive more than one type of housing payment, sometimes in the same year.

As far as I am aware there is no State database, nor is there one envisaged, that is person centred.

For instance, say you wanted to know how much assistance 5 individuals receive _in total _from State sources. Since the assistance might consist of several different types from the same entity and/or from several different entities. You might be forgiven for thinking that 55 _different _people were receiving assistance.


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> Therein lies the problem - and not _just _with housing assistance.
> 
> It is possible, eventually, to cost the amount of each form of assistance.
> 
> ...


The report that @NoRegretsCoyote linked to might help us with this, for example

_*"At end-2020, the number of households eligible for social housing support but with an unmet need was 61,880 (containing minimum of 112,000 people). In addition, a further 59,821 households were in receipt of HAP at the same point (containing an estimated minimum of 157,000 people). These cohorts are analysed and assessed, and a cost estimation of housing the approximately 260,000 eligible people (including children) via capital funded, long-term measures is presented." p.3*_

Further down p.5

_*"Taking account of the Departmental housing build cost estimates in 2020 for various property types, the PBO estimates that the cost of delivery for all currently eligible households with an unmet need would be at least €14.3 billion. Similarly, an estimated cost of over €15 billion would be required to provide a unit of housing for all HAP tenancies through capital means. Both estimates are based on 2020 build costs."*_

So, it would cost €29.14bn to build houses to allow all the above which is only 2 cohorts "have a home" at 2020 prices. so lets call it €35bn today 

Again HAP cost €465m


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## Mocame (1 Jun 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> And do the Housing Finance Agency farm out some of this financing to the main banks? the reason I ask is that I saw in some report Cluid? that some of its finance was from AIB at 3.25%, or are AHBs allowed to raise finance themselves?
> 
> And thanks for adding another Agency to trawl through.


Approved housing bodies can borrow from whatever lender they like to provide social housing, most of borrowing is from the Housing Finance Agency because this is generally lower interest and also fixed rate.  However even if they borrow from AIB this still counts as national debt because they are public bodies (in accounting terms).

Approved housing bodies sign a lease agreement with government which requires them to let the homes to people on the social housing waiting list.  In return they receive a subsidy from government of up to 92% of the rent the dwelling would have received if it was let at a market rate.  In addition they charge their tenants an income related rent like local authorities do.  So they could get close to 100% or perhaps 100+ of market rent when both sources of revenue are added together


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

Mocame said:


> Approved housing bodies can borrow from whatever lender they like to provide social housing, most of borrowing is from the Housing Finance Agency because this is generally lower interest and also fixed rate.  However even if they borrow from AIB this still counts as national debt because they are public bodies (in accounting terms).
> 
> Approved housing bodies sign a lease agreement with government which requires them to let the homes to people on the social housing waiting list.  In return they receive a subsidy from government of up to 92% of the rent the dwelling would have received if it was let at a market rate.  In addition they charge their tenants an income related rent like local authorities do.  So they could get close to 100% or perhaps 100+ of market rent when both sources of revenue are added together


Thank you that was my impression but thought I'd get a second view


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## Paul O Mahoney (1 Jun 2022)

So, after @Mocame  provided another link and after my afternoon nap, CT/ MRI scans yesterday,  I had a look at the Housing Finance Agency,  again another report to be read, but it proudly states on its first page the it lent €1.04bn to AHBs to provide 4526 properties across the country.

Of course as Mocame said this is added National Debt and the question now is how much has been borrowed from the commercial banks .

Is it me or is this thing a beast of many tentacles and when we cut off one another batch appears.

From what I've read so far €4bn might be the tip of the iceberg but as more comes out by way of links the picture is getting clearer, but its becoming more difficult to understand why we are spending so much and the problem is no where being solved.

And why has the Government carried on this. Who's making skin in this ? For certain the taxpayer isn't.

The loan book is €5.2bn with finance available of €7.8bn (EIB CBE and loan notes )


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## jpd (1 Jun 2022)

Al subsidies go to the provider of the goods and services subsidised - in this case to the house and appartment builders and ultimately to the landowners


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## bipped (2 Jun 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Well its huge money,  the one with the  Irish name cluid? is another 100m balance sheet but it has 650m in debt it very complex,  some of the funding I noticed was at 3.25% AIB and other banks I never heard of.....of course this is all underwritten by the Government. Assets are €1.2 bn but they use an amortisation calculation that will need a bit of understanding.
> 
> That one had 60m turnover with 45m ish expenses.
> 
> ...



Great to see so much information and data on this 
Difficult enough to get some figures, for example the new AHB register has 450 AHB's listed as at April this year, citizens information says there are over 500, RTB says 520 and the Social and Affordable Housing Alliance says over 540 are currently operating in ireland. The iCSH (Irish Council for Social Housing) a body thats around since 1982 has 270+ AHB member organisations. 

Purple is right in earlier posts - there is a thriving industry around homelessness and provision of social housing, and there must be a lot of duplication between all the various agencies and charities funded by the state. Maybe it's the best way but its hard to see why the problem seems to gets worse year on year when so many are involved with fixing it.


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## Paul O Mahoney (2 Jun 2022)

I think this is the nub of the issue there is a huge amount of data but nothing correlates even if one had all the lists and cross checked to identify the difference and then investigate why there was differences , for example some AHBs might no longer be active but assets are still held by it.

But more likely its rubbish data entry with nothing cleaned up when it changed.

However the PBO report on housing that was issued in March of this year is probably the best report I've seen as it consolidates all aspects of social housing and the costs of providing it and there seems to be only 3 channels of delivery which are HAP, RAS and via AHBs and " "voluntary organisations " ie charities. 

From my reading all this changed after the 2009 act was passed,  Councils were the main provider of social housing but from 2010 it essentially became a market with many participants and is still growing. 

The report is very detailed and I assume has been audited to maximum level possible so, I'm going to use that and get the core data of number of people/households receipt of direct assistance via HAP and RAS two biggest ones and then try and see the increase in houses , either leased or built by AHBS. 

It's the only way to start,  today is Thursday and I've ran out of ink and paper twice.....ha

But there is absolutely no doubt theres a lot of money being made and the problem isn't being solved, in fact its getting worse


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## Paul O Mahoney (2 Jun 2022)

Just looking at my notes , and the list of questions I've posed myself and the biggest/main one is has the financial crisis caused this or has it been used by the Government to push this through despite the fact that it isn't working or workable.

The second question is are wages and salaries so low now that all these interventions are the only way of housing people, over 200000 people in this country are in receipt of either HAP, as per OP and RAS, yes there is a tax benefit from private landlords. ( families with children are counted here).

The third question why isn't this centrally controlled? having multiple agencies including charities being the main distributors of these benefits seems to allow the muddying of the waters and as pointed out data is inconsistent so how can you budget or forecast when you dont have accurate data, even 95% accurate would suffice.

There is no political will to fix this issue and I doubt that any future Government will change it either,  the rental market is collapsing, building costs soaring even outside the present blip, and a culture of " I'll get some of my rent from the Local Authority,I'll be grand" has embedded itself.

5m people and we can't provide housing at an economic level as we did upto 2010.

The PBO report says " provision of social housing in Ireland is a highly complex issue " but we seem to have numnuts implementing it.

Whew......head wrecking stuff I'm off to paint the window sills


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## Purple (2 Jun 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> The second question is are wages and salaries so low now that all these interventions are the only way of housing people, over 200000 people in this country are in receipt of either HAP, as per OP and RAS, yes there is a tax benefit from private landlords.


The driver of all of this is Quantitative Easing.
According to this article only 8% of the money created through QE in the UK went into the real economy with the other 92% going into stock markets and property investments. 
Increasing the money supply is an expansionary monitory policy. If there's no inflation as measured in the CPI then that growth is taking place in areas which are not included in the CPI, in other words asset price inflation. If there's twice as much money in the world but wages haven't increased then their real value relative to Capital (stocks and property) has been halved. 
QE since 2008 has in effect nationalised the private losses incurred in the crash. My pension and my house have more than doubled in value since 2008 but real wage growth in around 7% and inflation, as measured in the CPI, has been negligible. That means the State is spending more and more money helping people to bridge that increasing gap between earnings and the cost of accessing ever inflating assets, in this case housing. 

All of our policies are simply reflecting that reality. 
That doesn't explain why the State has chosen to outsource so much of the delivery of that support to private organisations. If in fact it is the most efficient method of delivery it is a sad reflection on the structure of our Civil Service and/or the calibre of the individuals involved.


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## Paul O Mahoney (2 Jun 2022)

Purple said:


> The driver of all of this is Quantitative Easing.
> According to this article only 8% of the money created through QE in the UK went into the real economy with the other 92% going into stock markets and property investments.
> Increasing the money supply is an expansionary monitory policy. If there's no inflation as measured in the CPI then that growth is taking place in areas which are not included in the CPI, in other words asset price inflation. If there's twice as much money in the world but wages haven't increased then their real value relative to Capital (stocks and property) has been halved.
> QE since 2008 has in effect nationalised the private losses incurred in the crash. My pension and my house have more than doubled in value since 2008 but real wage growth in around 7% and inflation, as measured in the CPI, has been negligible. That means the State is spending more and more money helping people to bridge that increasing gap between earnings and the cost of accessing ever inflating assets, in this case housing.
> ...


I'm not the sceptical type but I'm thinking that they made it this problem so that certain people could stay employed and Nama make a profit from all the crap that they " bought " of developers.

Then setup quangos who will issue multiple reports all the same length with the same claptrap but in a different colour and then push the narrative " look at all the people who are helping with the housing crisis "

Perfect machiavellian strategy and get the sops to pay for it.


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## Purple (2 Jun 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I'm not the sceptical type but I'm thinking that they made it this problem so that certain people could stay employed and Nama make a profit from all the crap that they " bought " of developers.


The US Fed and the ECB made the decisions. We were just along for the ride. It certainly helped that NAMA could make a profit with portfolios that were fattened in the QE trough. 



Paul O Mahoney said:


> Then setup quangos who will issue multiple reports all the same length with the same claptrap but in a different colour and then push the narrative " look at all the people who are helping with the housing crisis "
> Perfect machiavellian strategy and get the sops to pay for it.


Yep, being seen to be doing something is more important that doing something. It's hard to blame politicians for that since that's what the media and the electorate actually want. 
There's usually no simple short term answers to complex problems but a good proportion of us vote for the people who say there are.


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## Sophrosyne (2 Jun 2022)

I understand your frustration Paul, when you try to analyze anything in Ireland you are up against non-existent/ insufficient data and poor record keeping.

However, I think you should persist in your efforts.

When completed, any informational gaps could be addressed to the Oireacthas Housing Committee.


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## Paul O Mahoney (2 Jun 2022)

Sophrosyne said:


> I understand your frustration Paul, when you try to analyze anything in Ireland you are up against non-existent/ insufficient data and poor record keeping.
> 
> However, I think you should persist in your efforts.
> 
> When completed, any informational gaps could be addressed to the Oireacthas Housing Committee.


I'll keep going and have devised a plan HAP and RAS are straight forward it's the proliferation of 3rd parties in charities and Housing associations is where the difficulties arise,  but once I find a reasonable starting point, that I can stand over I'll dig and dig and hopefully be able to see all the people involved,  and then we can expose the utter nonsense this strategy is.

But as we all know putting ones head above the parapet in this country leads to all sort of consequences,  but it needs exposure.


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## lff12 (1 Jul 2022)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I will study the report later.
> 
> I wonder does it point out that if the state supports 50% of renters, it's bound to push up rents?


Its a long time ago but government of the day did apply significant restrictions to SWA rent allowance eligibility in 2003, and rents slightly fell that year.


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## lff12 (1 Jul 2022)

The Horseman said:


> Even some social housing tenants are behind in their heavily subsidised rent. Oh and the cherry on that cake is it is almost impossible to evict them because it's political suicide to even suggest changing the ruled.
> 
> Why does nothing change? It's because screwing the system is a badge of honour in Ireland and those who don't get screwed over and over again and no one in power is willing to call them out on it.


64% or the majority of Dublin city council tenants are in arrears, more than half owe more than €500, which would represent in most case more than 2 months rent.


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## Purple (1 Jul 2022)

lff12 said:


> 64% or the majority of Dublin city council tenants are in arrears, more than half owe more than €500, which would represent in most case more than 2 months rent.


Why would you pay for something that you can get for free by, well, just not paying for it?


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## lff12 (7 Jul 2022)

Purple said:


> Why would you pay for something that you can get for free by, well, just not paying for it?


Because they are taking legal action against the worst arrears cases now? It seems council did not in recent years, but if that changes, then there will be more of a "stick". It is possible to lose your eligibility to social housing entirely in this way and its not where anybody wants to be.


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## Purple (7 Jul 2022)

lff12 said:


> Because they are taking legal action against the worst arrears cases now? It seems council did not in recent years, but if that changes, then there will be more of a "stick". It is possible to lose your eligibility to social housing entirely in this way and its not where anybody wants to be.


I wouldn't hold my breath. If the mob protests to help bankrupt developers keep their homes they'll be up in arms  when "the vulnerable" are being turfed out.


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## Paul O Mahoney (7 Jul 2022)

lff12 said:


> Because they are taking legal action against the worst arrears cases now? It seems council did not in recent years, but if that changes, then there will be more of a "stick". It is possible to lose your eligibility to social housing entirely in this way and its not where anybody wants to be.


It'll never happen,  I could write the headlines now, and it would just add more ,nonsense in an Ireland that still thinks landlords,  including governments are there to be abused.


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## Paul O Mahoney (7 Jul 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> It'll never happen,  I could write the headlines now, and it would just add more ,nonsense in an Ireland that still thinks landlords,  including governments are there to be abused.


Sorry Dublin Bus are intent on driving into every pothole available


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