# Current landlord refusing HAP



## Niamh12345 (2 Oct 2019)

Hi all,

I've been living at this address for 7 years, on rent supplement for 5. I've been asked by the council to apply for HAP (as they are phasing out RS). I filled in my part of the application, sent the landlord his part to fill in, and last night received a text in reply saying:

"If you wish to take on another fixed term lease we would expect the same payment terms and conditions as per the previous lease."

Which I have interpreted as no hap or pack your bags. I've done my research, and as far as I can tell, he cannot refuse HAP. I have contacted the council, Threshold and the PRTB and am awaiting response, but after an entirely sleepless night worrying about the possibility of having to house hunt in this current climate, I would appreciate hugely if anyone could give me some peace of mind.

TIA


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## Páid (2 Oct 2019)

HAP have a contract that covers the current tenancy only. Maybe your landlord would feel better about HAP if s/he knew that once your tenancy ended, so would the HAP contract.


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## Luternau (2 Oct 2019)

I hope it works out for you. Plenty of HAP properties out there if you have to move.

As far as I am aware, HAP is opt in for a property owner. They agree a rent with the council which is (slightly) below market for a private let in lieu of guaranteed payments. I don't see how somebody should be compelled to accept to do that. They have expenses etc. I know someone that is in the scheme and wants to get out of it. There are two sides to HAP.


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## Niamh12345 (2 Oct 2019)

Luternau said:


> I hope it works out for you. Plenty of HAP properties out there if you have to move.
> 
> As far as I am aware, HAP is opt in for a property owner. They agree a rent with the council which is (slightly) below market for a private let in lieu of guaranteed payments. I don't see how somebody should be compelled to accept to do that. They have expenses etc. I know someone that is in the scheme and wants to get out of it. There are two sides to HAP.



Thanks for your reply. The amount of rent paid won't change as the rent is already below market value due to the property being shared with a montessori school downstairs, so the landlord won't be out of pocket. 

As I understand it, there can be a delay in payment due to the HAP being paid on a back month, but I have assured the landlord that I will ensure he gets the rent on time, even if it means I have to take out a loan to do so, as I don't want to see him out of pocket.


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## Leo (2 Oct 2019)

HAP can be a bit of a pain for landlords, but one they must accept. It is illegal for a landlord to refuse HAP or to discriminate based on the receipt of HAP payments.

Landlords have been fined significant sums for refusing to cooperate.


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## Niamh12345 (2 Oct 2019)

Leo said:


> HAP can be a bit of a pain for landlords, but one they must accept. It is illegal for a landlord to refuse HAP or to discriminate based on the receipt of HAP payments.
> 
> Landlords have been fined significant sums for refusing to cooperate.



Why is it such a pain for landlords? Other than the initial paperwork and the inspection, is there other hassle that I'm not aware of? I'm interested to know the other side of it, as it may help me to ease his concerns if I know what they are first. TIA


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## Leo (2 Oct 2019)

I'd imagine most cases are straight forward enough. The paperwork is an extra burden, and the rent payment switches to the month in arrears, so you effectively lose a month's rent on the switch-over. If the rent doesn't arrive in your account at any stage, it can take quite some time and effort to chase the council for an answer.

The inspections can be a challenge for some in that they demand a higher standard than applies to a lot of buildings. Some apartment owners for example can find it very difficult and expensive to meet the ventilation requirements.


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## Seagull (2 Oct 2019)

It might be as simple as the landlord knowing that while the property is perfectly good for the regular rental market, it will not meet the higher standards required by HAP, and he is not prepared to spend the money to bring it to that level.


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## Bronte (2 Oct 2019)

Niamh12345 said:


> Why is it such a pain for landlords? Other than the initial paperwork and the inspection, is there other hassle that I'm not aware of? I'm interested to know the other side of it, as it may help me to ease his concerns if I know what they are first. TIA


I'm a HAP landlord. Like you some of my tenant's were moved from the council paying them, and them paying me to the HAP.   Where the payment is directly to the landlord. And the tenant pays the council a contribution.   I think the tenant can pay it directly at the post office where they get their social welfare or they can pay a direct debit.  

It was a nightmare at the beginning to set it up paper wise.  They were terrible to deal with.  But I had another tenant join HAP this month, previously not a social welfare tenant and it was a breeze as I already exist in the HAP system and I knew exactly what they needed.  

HAP payments are paid from a Limerick office, separate to the councils.  Into my bank account.  

That is not the main problem, it's the fact they pay one month in arrears.  Easily solved by you paying that to your landlord and agreeing now to do so.  (with my tenants we just got them to pay extra over a period of time as it's hard for some to get a month's rent all of a sudden.  

As regards inspections and standards.  There have been zero HAP inspections and zero inspections ever by two city councils in my more than two decades of being a landlord.  

Last year one tenant didn't pay the council, after a few weeks the council sent me a pink letter about this, it all got sorted (tenant paid up) but I figured out that a landlord could be a long time out of pocket if the council don't notify the landlords immediately.  

One advantage for me as an non resident landlord the HAP deducts 20% tax and that means I've already paid the taxman when I do my tax returns.


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## Bronte (2 Oct 2019)

Luternau said:


> I hope it works out for you. Plenty of HAP properties out there if you have to move.
> 
> As far as I am aware, HAP is opt in for a property owner. They agree a rent with the council which is (slightly) below market for a private let in lieu of guaranteed payments. I don't see how somebody should be compelled to accept to do that. They have expenses etc. I know someone that is in the scheme and wants to get out of it. There are two sides to HAP.


No it is not that scheme.  It's market rent.  Landlord has a contract with HAP. But the tenant is still contractually bound with the landlord. Normal landlord tenancy agreement.     If tenant stops paying his share to HAP, than HAP stops paying the landlord.


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## Páid (2 Oct 2019)

HAP pay 92% of the market rent which could be above the current rent.


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## MangoJoe (2 Oct 2019)

Niamh12345 said:


> Why is it such a pain for landlords? Other than the initial paperwork and the inspection, is there other hassle that I'm not aware of? I'm interested to know the other side of it, as it may help me to ease his concerns if I know what they are first. TIA



Admirable attitude Niamh - Sorry you're going through the worry of this, I hope it all works out well, including this Landlord finding a manner or means deep within his or herself to communicate respectfully and efficiently with you.

I'm sure you'll get great advice on here, wishing you the best of luck.


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## Susie2017 (2 Oct 2019)

In relation to HAP paying above market rate - I presume they will not break the rules set by rent pressure zones ?


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## Leo (2 Oct 2019)

Susie2017 said:


> In relation to HAP paying above market rate - I presume they will not break the rules set by rent pressure zones ?



Correct. Moving to HAP payments in no way allows the landlord to bypass that legislation.


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## Leo (2 Oct 2019)

Páid said:


> HAP pay 92% of the market rent which could be above the current rent.



The RAS scheme pays 92% of market rent to landlords. HAP can pay above market rates in certain [broken link removed].


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## Feemar5 (2 Oct 2019)

We have had a HAP inspection recently and the house was fine which I knew it was before the inspection.   The only thing I had to improve was to provide two smoke detectors with a 10 year battery to replace the 5 year ones I had in the house already.    I am aware of another house where the landlord had to bore the walls to put in ventilation and when the inspection was over the tenant covered it over as she felt the house was cold !!


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## landlord (3 Oct 2019)

Bronte said:


> No it is not that scheme.  It's market rent.  Landlord has a contract with HAP. But the tenant is still contractually bound with the landlord. Normal landlord tenancy agreement.     If tenant stops paying his share to HAP, than HAP stops paying the land



I have several HAP tenants who pay over and above what the HAP are paying. They pay me directly and if they miss a payment or are late, then their is no way HAP would know, so I see no reason why HAP would stop paying.


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## Bronte (3 Oct 2019)

landlord said:


> I have several HAP tenants who pay over and above what the HAP are paying. They pay me directly and if they miss a payment or are late, then their is no way HAP would know, so I see no reason why HAP would stop paying.


I don't understand this. Doesn't HAP pay your directly? Why would the tenant's be paying you? That's not how HAP works.  In my HAP case the tenants stopped paying HAP their portion and then HAP informed me that HAP would stop paying me, but I sorted it out before that happened.


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## cremeegg (3 Oct 2019)

Unlike the previous RAS scheme it is permissible under HAP for the tenant to top up the HAP payment. 

Say the rent is €1,000 HAP pays the landlord €900, the tenant contributes say €50 to HAP for that, and the tenant pays the landlord €100 directly. 

If the tenant does not pay his/her €50 to HAP, then HAP stops paying €900 to the landlord. They do not stop immediately but after, from memory 6 weeks, of non receipt by HAP of the tenants contribution, HAP stops paying the landlord.


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## landlord (3 Oct 2019)

Bronte said:


> . If tenant stops paying his share to HAP, than HAP stops paying the landlord.





Bronte said:


> I don't understand this. Doesn't HAP pay your directly? Why would the tenant's be paying you? That's not how HAP works.  In my HAP case the tenants stopped paying HAP their portion and then HAP informed me that HAP would stop paying me, but I sorted it out before that happened.



HAP do pay me directly. In all cases my tenants were originally paying all the rent on their own however due to some financial difficulties, I guess HAP have agreed to pay a portion/most of their rent. 
The extra they have been paying themselves directly to me (including the 4% extra each year). My tenants who are all still actually working are delighted with this situation.


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## RentingD (5 Oct 2019)

I have a HAP tenant and find the HAP scheme fine. Rent is paid the last Wed of the month and tenant pays a small amount to top up. They are lovely to deal with in the office, my tenant regularly pays rent late and I get the pink letter so they know her well as she goes in to sort it out before the payment date.

 I had an inspection alright and there were a few niggly things that needed to be sorted out. I found that an expensive nuisance at the time! But I wouldnt see the HAP as a negative thing at all.


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## candyman (9 Oct 2019)

Bronte said:


> I'm a HAP landlord. Like you some of my tenant's were moved from the council paying them, and them paying me to the HAP.   Where the payment is directly to the landlord. And the tenant pays the council a contribution.   I think the tenant can pay it directly at the post office where they get their social welfare or they can pay a direct debit.
> 
> It was a nightmare at the beginning to set it up paper wise.  They were terrible to deal with.  But I had another tenant join HAP this month, previously not a social welfare tenant and it was a breeze as I already exist in the HAP system and I knew exactly what they needed.
> 
> ...


What happens if the tenant stops paying the council their contribution?


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## candyman (9 Oct 2019)

cremeegg said:


> Unlike the previous RAS scheme it is permissible under HAP for the tenant to top up the HAP payment.
> 
> Say the rent is €1,000 HAP pays the landlord €900, the tenant contributes say €50 to HAP for that, and the tenant pays the landlord €100 directly.
> 
> If the tenant does not pay his/her €50 to HAP, then HAP stops paying €900 to the landlord. They do not stop immediately but after, from memory 6 weeks, of non receipt by HAP of the tenants contribution, HAP stops paying the landlord.


So HAP payments are not guaranteed then as I've seen some people say, all that has to happen is the tenant to stop paying the council their contribution and the landlord is left high and dry with no rent coming in. Is that correct?


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## Leo (10 Oct 2019)

candyman said:


> What happens if the tenant stops paying the council their contribution?



The council will stop paying the landlord.


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## candyman (10 Oct 2019)

Leo said:


> The council will stop paying the landlord.


Has this actually happened to anyone on here? 
Interested to hear how this plays out for both sides....


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## cremeegg (10 Oct 2019)

candyman said:


> So HAP payments are not guaranteed then as I've seen some people say, all that has to happen is the tenant to stop paying the council their contribution and the landlord is left high and dry with no rent coming in. Is that correct?



That is correct, to the best of my knowledge.


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## Leo (11 Oct 2019)

candyman said:


> Has this actually happened to anyone on here?



Maybe not anyone on here, but it happens.


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## candyman (11 Oct 2019)

Leo said:


> Maybe not anyone on here, but it happens.


Thanks for the link. As a landlord, this is the kind of scenario that would keep me awake at night, and it is the reason I would prefer not to accept HAP based tenants. 
I'd imagine it is a very long and difficult process for the the landlord to get his property back and he would be lucky claw back any lost rent owed to him.


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## cremeegg (11 Oct 2019)

candyman said:


> Thanks for the link. As a landlord, this is the kind of scenario that would keep me awake at night, and it is the reason I would prefer not to accept HAP based tenants.



You do realise that to refuse to accept HAP tenants is illegal and there are severe penalties



Leo said:


> Maybe not anyone on here, but it happens.



Great link Leo. 655 Stopped out of 54,000, that is over 1.2%


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