# IBRC(Shoreline)  mortgage written down as part of a Personal Insolvency Arrangement



## Bronte (12 Aug 2015)

Good news story today that Shoreline have written down nearly half the mortgage - to a sustainable level.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...e-moon-after-mortgage-writedown-31445691.html

I think this is great news altogether.  A sign of things to come, a new reality.

Well done Shoreline and Pepper (their agent).  This kind of deal should have been the norm about 10 years ago.  Property written down to it's worth, which is all the couple could afford to service.


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## Mrs Vimes (12 Aug 2015)

Well done, Judge, you mean!


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Aug 2015)

No, the Judge had very little say in it.  If Shoreline had vetoed it, it wouldn't have gone any further. 

Brendan


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## Mrs Vimes (12 Aug 2015)

Great to hear they are being realistic then, this Examiner article gives more detail - apparently Shoreline wanted voluntary surrender but the PIP and the borrowers held firm and persuaded them that keeping the house would get them a higher repayment in the long run.


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## Bronte (12 Aug 2015)

From the article:

_Shoreline Residential Ltd bought the loan from IBRC. It employs Pepper to administer its IBRC portfolio._

And a nod to the excellent PIP who got the bank to agree (no connection to me)

_Mr Lenihan of Moore Stephens Debt Solutions said that “to say that the couple are now over the moon is an understatement — it is a massive relief. This is life changing for them.”_

I hope we hear more of these types of soluctions that brings closure to a lot of people instead of the years of misery many of them have had (and not strategic defaulters )


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## Redone (12 Aug 2015)

This is good to see, however, probably reflects the different position Shoreline are in compared to the other banks. The amount agreed with this couple is still likely to be well in excess of what Shoreline paid for it.


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## DaisyD2 (12 Aug 2015)

It truly is good news but its still only an option if you are in deep trouble, in arrears & cannot afford your mortgage.

Also it took a court appearance to come to resolution.

Those Irish Nationwide Mortgage holders sold to these funds, managed by others who hide behind PO Boxes & call centres but can afford repayments on negative equity mortgages get nothing but runaround from these entities.

Who is cheerleading for them?


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## ClubMan (12 Aug 2015)

DaisyD2 said:


> Those Irish Nationwide Mortgage holders sold to these funds, managed by others who hide behind PO Boxes & call centres but can afford repayments on negative equity mortgages no Bank will touch can get nothing but runaround from these entities.


I've tried to parse/understand this sentence several times now but have to admit defeat...


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## epicaricacy (12 Aug 2015)

ClubMan said:


> I've tried to parse/understand this sentence several times now but have to admit defeat...



I believe what Daisy is writing is that no one is cheering / standing up for the people who can afford to pay the full mortgage repayments on negative equity Irish Nationwide mortgages which were sold to opaque organisations such as vulture funds. In effect - why can't everyone get a write down to current market price?


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## Gerry Canning (12 Aug 2015)

Good to see a sensible agreement.

1. Lender sold mortgage to Shoreline at a discount.
2. Forced sale in this negative equity situation means new mortgage owner would lose more by forcing customers out and taking todays poor price and attendant costs versus  keeping a reduced mortgage going.
3. Customers keep home at a market value ,affordable for them.
4. If property values increase and customer defaults again , new lender is in a better position.

In short Mr Shoreline does ok ish and customers do well.
The alternative was/is in none of our interests.

(Maybe epicaricacy those on vulture funds should just pay market value and /or interest only,since I am sure Mr Vulture didn,t buy mortgages @  market value.)?


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## epicaricacy (12 Aug 2015)

[QUOTE="Gerry Canning, post: 1441271, member: 76807")

(Maybe epicaricacy those on vulture funds should just pay market value and /or interest only,since I am sure Mr Vulture didn,t buy mortgages @  market value.)?[/QUOTE]

Sounds fair to me!!!


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## DaisyD2 (12 Aug 2015)

ClubMan said:


> I've tried to parse/understand this sentence several times now but have to admit defeat...



Alologies Clubman, I was distracted in work & the edit didn't  post. 



epicaricacy said:


> I believe what Daisy is writing is that no one is cheering / standing up for the people who can afford to pay the full mortgage repayments on negative equity Irish Nationwide mortgages which were sold to opaque organisations such as vulture funds. In effect - why can't everyone get a write down to current market price?



Not quite epicaricacy, want I would like to see is transparency & meaningful regulation for the industry I now find myself dealing with.

As an INBS mortgagee in minor arrears & massive equity the only way I could buy out my loan from Vultures & return to a regulated functioning bank would be with a write down. Its not going to happen.

They hold all the power. Every letter written, every submission made is returned asking for something else. 

I have legitimate questions on my INBS Mortgage but there has been nobody "there" to answer.

These Vultures are registered to brass plate offices. They want me to send personal financial papers to a PO Box. As a result I can't get receipts to registered post anymore. 

There is no "office" for me to walk into or protest outside of. They have not replied directly to my letters. Never addressed my requests for face to face meetings.

They have changed phone number (& I believe call centres employed to take my calls) a number of times in last 6mths. 

Just who now owns my mortgage? Who is employed by them to "service" loan? (Its not Shoreline/Pepper).

I am judged as affordable & sustainable yet outside all Consumer Protections. 

Who is interested? Nobody. 

Most people think "shes just looking for a write down" "why shouldn't I get one" etc,.

I totally understand the wish to get on with ones life & put the stress behind this couple. Fair play to the PIP who has managed to get this deal done and I wish them all the best .....

...... but who is looking after the rights of the Affordable & Sustainable?


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## Bronte (13 Aug 2015)

What are your issue Daisy? 

Instead of registered post there is a facility at the post office to get a proof of postage.  Which is free I believe.


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## Bronte (13 Aug 2015)

DaisyD2 said:


> It truly is good news but its still only an option if you are in deep trouble, in arrears & cannot afford your mortgage.
> 
> Also it took a court appearance to come to resolution.


 
But if you're not in deep trouble, arrears and can afford your mortgage why would you get a writedown?

It may have had to go to court for the bank to be able to get the couple to engage.  A lot of these bank cases seem to be because of customers ignoring and refusing to engage.


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## Gerry Canning (13 Aug 2015)

Bronte.

I hear a lot of (noise) that customers won,t engage.
From experience I think quite a lot did , at least initially.
Then at a certain stage customers gave up.

From what Daisy writes it looks like Daisy has done all the running.
If someone had (stopped) engaging because they cannot get through the wall of getting nowhere ,would they be classed as non -engaging?
They probably are now classed as non-engaging.
If Daisy sends in by Reg/REcorded mail, a SUBJECT ACCESS REPORT (sar) Daisy should get most of the info ,or at least enough to work with.
Since SAR must be complied with; it is up to lender to do this.but

Daisy,
When you look at this deal it appears it was only done because Mr Vulture was forced into realizing that this was Mr Vultures best way of maximizing his return.Fair dues to PIP but why did it go as far as court? remember Mr Vulture squeezed as hard as Mr Vulture could and Mr PIP stayed with his customer.
This was not a success , though it ended up as satisfactory for customer.


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## Bronte (13 Aug 2015)

I do agree Gerry that for some customers the banks were atrocious in their handeling of customers.  But if you receive a letter threatening court it is beholden on one to not ignore it as they mean business.


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## Gerry Canning (13 Aug 2015)

Bronte,
With you on that ,and indeed maybe the only thing that shifts some customers.
I suppose I was wondering is the % of real non-engagers as high as is spun by the lenders?


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## DaisyD2 (13 Aug 2015)

Bronte said:


> But if you're not in deep trouble, arrears and can afford your mortgage why would you get a writedown?
> 
> It may have had to go to court for the bank to be able to get the couple to engage.  A lot of these bank cases seem to be because of customers ignoring and refusing to engage.



That's not what I said Bronte. I said the only way I could Return to Regulated Bank would be IF they gave me a write down which is not going to happen.

I did offer to buy out the loan from liquidator at approximately 65% of outstanding mortgage at the time (pre arrears this was max Banks would give me due solely to negative equity but nobody would touch me now with arrears on record).

How much to you reckon Mr. Vulture bought for? Oh but that's because I am part of a toxic loan book where getting the max out of me balances somebody who is not paying isn't that how it works?

My issue is whilst Irish Nationwide were a Bank I noticed they put my fixed interest rate up twice. I rang and was returned to my fixed rate. When I came off fixed rate to a SVR I appealed with screen shots of their advertised rates and got a reduction on rates.

INBS was then combined with Anglo, renamed IBRC and subsequently liquidated. I was repeatedly told the interest rates were frozen and yet my rates went up between moratoriums which I can not get answers too. 

Subsequently I believe I am being over charged but who do I appeal to? IBRC and their liquidators ignored me. I have ended up in a Vulture fund who are also ignoring me but can get away with it as they are unregulated and not subject, its seems from my point of view of endlessly asking questions, to be under anyone's Consumer Protection remit.

I am the very definition of engaged yet one of the first letters I got from them was you are outside protections of MARP as you are more than three months in arrears and your home liable to repossession. My total arrears to date are less than 2mths payments and I have never failed to pay at least the interest portion so where are they getting that from? Questions ignored.

In addition, my ICB report states I am in arrears with INBS? How can I be paying my mortgage to an entity that no longer exists?

I have made previous Data Access Requests and will be making another. I believe I have been sold to this entity as my papers are not in order and yet the legal advice I can get tells me there is Nothing I can do to force answers from them! I can stop paying the mortgage and let them take me to court where I can ask questions and present Judge with draft for outstanding monies and still end up losing my home!

I thoroughly agree, where appropriate, with repossessions but how can it be right that I am paying my way, at great personal cost, but have no avenues open to me to simply address concerns I have about how my account has been handled by IBRC under control of KPMG and subsequently Mr. Vulture?

Gerry, I have asked Mr. Vulture what is their end game? They bought my home at such a massive discount if they were to repossess or force sale they will make money so it is nothing to them to simply wear me down and bide their time.

I was assured, by phone, when I returned to full Capital and Interest Repayments for 3mths the arrears (which I dispute but that's another story) would be recapitalised - 7mths later they propose to spread it out over 2yrs while another letter says they are charging me daily compound interest. Also, the amount the want over 2 years would be over a thousand euro more than the arrears.

Who cares "I can afford it"


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## demoivre (14 Aug 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> No, the Judge had very little say in it.  If Shoreline had vetoed it, it wouldn't have gone any further.
> 
> Brendan



Why would this necessarily be the case with the recent Personal Insolvency Amendment Bill 2014 being passed where, essentially, the banks veto has been removed ?


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## Gerry Canning (17 Aug 2015)

Daisy.

Not only are you entitled to ask for SAR , (subject access request) the lenders must provide it within 40 days.
Suggest do an SAR on any lender that your account passed through.
I know it is a bit messy but it appears to be the only way you will have vision on your account.
After 40 days you can (if not delivered) report said entities and take further advice . 

It may be that twix and between some of them have {flawed} which will give you a better negotiating hand.
INBS were anecdotally notorious in just changing rates without proper advice etc.
IBRC just inherited and Vulture just bought your mortgage.

Would your solicitor who acted for you hold any papers?


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## DaisyD2 (20 Aug 2015)

Gerry Canning said:


> Daisy.
> 
> Suggest do an SAR on any lender that your account passed through.
> 
> ...



Hi Gerry,

Sorry for delay in replying but I was awaiting bank statements to complete mortgage calculator and just needed a few days "switched off" from thinking about the mess I find myself in (through no fault of my own!).

I did a Data Access Request through IBRC and intend to do one with purchaser of my mortgage but "any lender my account passed through" is where it gets tricky! My ICB report says my loan never left INBS - where does that leave me?

I have spoken to Solicitor who handled the transaction and he doesn't think he has anything relevant. We agreed that the course I am on is best one for moment and when I have all my spreadsheets verified and the DAR done I should bring it all to him but I am really financially struggling at the moment. I can pay the amount they are demanding of me but I literally have nothing spare to save to pay for legal advice especially as all the free legal advice I am getting is that there is nothing I can do to protect myself from funds that bought my mortgage.


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## 44brendan (20 Aug 2015)

DaisyD2 said:


> I did offer to buy out the loan from liquidator at approximately 65% of outstanding mortgage at the time (pre arrears this was max Banks would give me due solely to negative equity but nobody would touch me now with arrears on record).
> 
> How much to you reckon Mr. Vulture bought for? Oh but that's because I am part of a toxic loan book where getting the max out of me balances somebody who is not paying isn't that how it works?


This is a somewhat simplistic idea of loan packages sold to these funds. I.e. "You sold my loan at 60% of amount owed and if approached I would have bought it for 70/80%".
These loans are not sold individually but as packages with an overall mark-down/discount to take account of bad debts/ongoing management costs/ low tracker rates etc. In line with any portfolio of loans there will be a mixture of high losses/no losses and full recovery loans in such a package. To the original borrower the fact that the loan package was sold as a discount makes no difference to their own obligation/liability to repay the full amount due. Obviously the sale of the loan does not mean that the new company can ignore any request for information or not provide Data as outlined above by Gerry!


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## DaisyD2 (20 Aug 2015)

I was being sarcastic


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