# Reviewing my employer's Maternity Leave Policy:



## LM26 (18 Aug 2009)

Hi, just wondering what your opinions are of the following.

I have worked in a company for 5 years. In the near future I want to start trying for a baby and have been reviewing their maternity package. Basically, I dont really like my job (but very grateful to have it) and if I was still here when I fell pregnant then I would want to leave early on and not return to work. Regardless of job, I want to be a stay at home mother for first few years anyway and see how it goes.

These are the stipulations of the policy:-

*    26 weeks entitlement
    min 2 weeks before the birth
    min 4 weeks after the end of the expected week of confinement
    remaining 20 weeks can be taken before or after the birth as you require
    5 + years = full monthly pay minus social welfare payments*

From the above, is it correct to assume I can leave as early as 4 months pregnant?
And if I do, they will obviously wonder why and my main query is that if I tell them outright at beginning that I do not intend to come back to work is there any way that could effect the 26 weeks paid leave? They have a one liner in the policy about not returning to work and it says to give as much notice as possible.

In summary, can I leave at 4 mths pregnant and still get 26 paid weeks leave? 

Probably a silly query as I cant imagine them getting out of it but wouldn't mind a second opinion. 

Thanks for any replies.


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## Mpsox (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*

I think you should do some more research. Firstly does your company allow for unpaid maternity leave on top of paid leave. Many do and if you find that for financial or other reasons that being a stay at home mum doesn't work for you, at least you'd have the option of returning to your job

For similer reasons, is a career break an option, again many employers allow that (my wife is on one at the minute)

In terms of when to take your leave, bear in mind you are going to have some high costs after the baby is born, nappies aren't cheap. Therefore from a financial perspective I'd recommend staying at work as long as possibles.


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## Black Sheep (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*

Are there any conditions in the contract that suggest you must work for a specified period following Mat. leave. It would be very unusual to have paid Mat. leave and then walk away without ever returning to work. I would check that out or what is the custom and practise in your work place.

As this something you are thinking about for the future it seems very early to make definite decisions about not returning to work. Perhaps there may be a part-time option by then and the job may not seem so awful on a part-time basis when you have so many other things to focus on at home


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## micheller (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*

As another poster said, you may be able to afford some unpaid leave. You are entitled to 26wks leave +16wks unpaid and also 14 weeks parental leave(at employers discretion). On top of that add all your holidays and bank holidays and see what it comes to.

At the end of all that, you could then make a decision having had at least a year at home to see how you feel? Just a suggestion, best of luck


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## Purple (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*

You may want to return to work with a different employer at a future date. If you leave at the end of your maternity leave it may affect your reference. Even if it does not if your future prospective employer will most likely want to call your last employer for an off the record conversation about you. This may cause you problems, even if you don’t hear about it.
In short if I was your prospective employer and I found out that you had quit after getting 26 weeks paid maternity leave I would definitely not give you a job.


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## Diziet (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



Purple said:


> You may want to return to work with a different employer at a future date. If you leave at the end of your maternity leave it may affect your reference. Even if it does not if your future prospective employer will most likely want to call your last employer for an off the record conversation about you. This may cause you problems, even if you don’t hear about it.
> In short if I was your prospective employer and I found out that you had quit after getting 26 weeks paid maternity leave I would definitely not give you a job.



Not sure at what point the clock stops ticking though? I mean, if a woman returns to work and then finds for whatever reason that she cannot cope and decides to leave, is she then precluded from taking another job? Even when her circumstances change? Even is she is a good fit for the next job? That would be treading on very thin ice in employment law terms.

To the OP, I really think that you need to wait and see how you feel once baby is born and a few months have passed. As this is your first child, you have absolutely no idea how you will feel afterwards - different people react very differently. I found that I was saner and a better person altogether when I worked, other women find they like the full time mammy thing better and are happier. And a lot get surprised about best laid plans not working out and having to change them.


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## Purple (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



Diziet said:


> Not sure at what point the clock stops ticking though? I mean, if a woman returns to work and then finds for whatever reason that she cannot cope and decides to leave, is she then precluded from taking another job? Even when her circumstances change? Even if she is a good fit for the next job?


 That's different to cynically taking advantage of an employer.



Diziet said:


> That would be treading on very thin ice in employment law terms.


 I agree, that's why the damage would be done during a phone call. It may not be fair but it still might happen.


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## Jewel (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



Purple said:


> In short if I was your prospective employer and I found out that you had quit after getting 26 weeks paid maternity leave I would definitely not give you a job.


 
Wow - that's a heck of a statement. 
That's not very fair (not to mention illegally discriminatory) . There are many women who fully intended to go back to work after their mat leave, or at least to keep that option open to them, but then for any number of reasons they may have changed their mind e.g. financial situation changed, couldn't get appropriate childcare, simply fell in love with their child and couldn't leave them, maybe the child had special needs and needed their parent more than other kids, discovered that with cost of childcare that it didn't make financial sense to work etc etc. 

I think it would be seriously shortsighted (and unethical and illegal) of any prospective manager to rule out serious candidates for a job simply for availing of an employee benefit that they were entitled to. 

To the OP - yes, you are reading it right, you are entitled to take the leave and the company top up in whichever manner it is written in the company handbook.


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## Purple (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



Jewel said:


> There are many women who fully intended to go back to work after their mat leave, or at least to keep that option open to them, but then for any number of reasons they may have changed their mind e.g. financial situation changed, couldn't get appropriate childcare, simply fell in love with their child and couldn't leave them, maybe the child had special needs and needed their parent more than other kids, discovered that with cost of childcare that it didn't make financial sense to work etc etc.



I agree, its the deliberate deception that's the problem.


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## Jewel (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



Purple said:


> I agree, its the deliberate deception that's the problem.


 Okay - but that's not clear from your post. What you said was that "_In short if I was your prospective employer and I found out that you had quit after getting 26 weeks paid maternity leave I would definitely not give you a job._ "

If you were taking up references on a good candidate, how would you know whether she had planned all that time ago not to return to her employer after mat leave, or whether she had changed her mind during mat leave??  Absolutely impossible for you, or any other prospective employer to know. Even if the old employer stated this (and it would still be wrong of them to do so, and wrong for it to be held against the candidate), how could you know for 100%?


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## John Rambo (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



Jewel said:


> Okay - but that's not clear from your post. What you said was that "_In short if I was your prospective employer and I found out that you had quit after getting 26 weeks paid maternity leave I would definitely not give you a job._ "
> 
> If you were taking up references on a good candidate, how would you know whether she had planned all that time ago not to return to her employer after mat leave, or whether she had changed her mind during mat leave?? Absolutely impossible for you, or any other prospective employer to know. Even if the old employer stated this (and it would still be wrong of them to do so, and wrong for it to be held against the candidate), how could you know for 100%?


 
Which is why you wouldn't get the job "because there were other more qualified and superior candidates". Dublin is a small place (and the rest of Ireland is even smaller). One "off the record" telephone call to your former employer and your name is mud if you pull a stunt like this (and rightly so in my view).


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## Jewel (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



John Rambo said:


> Which is why you wouldn't get the job "because there were other more qualified and superior candidates". Dublin is a small place (and the rest of Ireland is even smaller). One "off the record" telephone call to your former employer and your name is mud if you pull a stunt like this (and rightly so in my view).


 
But, (and maybe I'm not stating it clearly), how would you, or Purple, or any other prospective employer know whether the candidate you are reference checking was a "genuine" candidate who really meant to go back to work after mat leave and then changed her mind or had to change it due to circumstances beyond her control? or whether she was one of the (as you guys would have it) devious women who "pulled a stunt" and decided in advance that she wasn't returning to work? 

As there is NO WAY that any prospective employer can know for sure which of the two categories above the lady falls into, what you guys are effectively saying is that you just would not employ any woman who went on maternity leave and did not come back even though they had received salary top-up. 

That's quite astonishing an attitude to hold in this day and age. 

Some companies have a clause in their mat leave providing for claw back of salary top in this situation. Thankfully, there are enlightened companies out there (my own, and the last two I worked for) who do not have such claw back clauses.  They put the salary top-up in place as an attractive employee benefit, put there to attract and retain high-calibre candidates. They also recognise that 10 months is a long time, and it's very VERY hard for a woman to know for 100% sure what she will be doing at the end of mat leave. They may be 90% sure that they know what will happen, but sometimes life throws a curve ball and you have to deal with , and that may involve not being able to go back to work after mat leave.


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## Purple (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



Jewel said:


> But, (and maybe I'm not stating it clearly), how would you, or Purple, or any other prospective employer know whether the candidate you are reference checking was a "genuine" candidate who really meant to go back to work after mat leave and then changed her mind or had to change it due to circumstances beyond her control? or whether she was one of the (as you guys would have it) devious women who "pulled a stunt" and decided in advance that she wasn't returning to work?
> 
> As there is NO WAY that any prospective employer can know for sure which of the two categories above the lady falls into, what you guys are effectively saying is that you just would not employ any woman who went on maternity leave and did not come back even though they had received salary top-up.
> 
> ...



The prospective employer would call the last employer and ask their manager what the lady in question was like. If the last employer was a small business and struggled to pay top up salary to an employer who then jumped ship they'd probably be p'd off enough to say so.

BTW, my company tops-up maternity pay. I agree that it’s the right thing to do but people should appreciate that for many small businesses it’s a struggle to do so. Taking advantage of that, in effect taking advantage of someone else’s generosity, is not cool.


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## Jewel (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



Purple said:


> I agree that it’s the right thing to do but people should appreciate that for many small businesses it’s a struggle to do so. Taking advantage of that, in effect taking advantage of someone else’s generosity, is not cool.


 
Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that if a small company pays it, then they may struggle to do so these days. Especially these days. 
And, personally, if I were leaving my job, I would do so in advance.

But, I was just debating the issue of discriminating against women who did not return to work. I know that a lot of reference checks are done on a "nod and a wink" basis (I'm a HR manager) as well as more formally , but even if the previous employer was ****ed off that the woman didn't come back after they apid salary top up, we would have to take that with a pinch of salt. Even if the employer was cross, they cannot know for sure what the lady's intentions were prior to going on mat leave. 

That's all I'm saying....


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## John Rambo (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



Jewel said:


> That's quite astonishing an attitude to hold in this day and age.
> 
> Some companies have a clause in their mat leave providing for claw back of salary top in this situation. Thankfully, there are enlightened companies out there (my own, and the last two I worked for) who do not have such claw back clauses.


 
I don't agree. Given the present climate, businesses (especially smaller businesses) cannot afford to be taken for a ride. The clawback makes absolute sense. And a quick call to the employee's former boss works wonders if you want to flush out the spoofers and the chancers. An astute potential employer would give any woman who had behaved in the manner alluded to in this thread an extremely wide berth (dressed up with a "sorry, we got a better candidate" whitewash of course).

And if you work in HR you obviously know that people are routinely "discriminated against" but it's dressed up as something else. Pregnant women who take their employers for a ride, perpetually "sick" employees, and people who leave because of some type of "conflict" are usually given a wide berth (especially nowadays).


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## Jewel (18 Aug 2009)

*Re: Maternity Leave*



John Rambo said:


> I don't agree. Given the present climate, businesses (especially smaller businesses) cannot afford to be taken for a ride. The clawback makes absolute sense.* And a quick call to the employee's former boss works wonders if you want to flush out the spoofers and the chancers.* An astute potential employer would give any woman who had behaved in the manner alluded to in this thread an extremely wide berth (dressed up with a "sorry, we got a better candidate" whitewash of course).


 
Just goes back to my point that the previous employer himself/herself may not know what the lady's intentions were. They might be ****ed off that she dind't come back, but unless she said straight out to someone beforehand that she had no intention of coming back (which would be pretty stupid of her to do if that was her intention) , then how can the employer know for 100% if she is a spoofer/chancer or not? 

Spoofers and chancers are normally weeded out during ref checks , with questions about work history, attitude etc - (I know all about it from my work) - but to just rule out a good candidate for a job because she got salary top up and then didn't or couldn't return to work, then that's just wrong and mean. 
You won't agree obviously , but it is.



John Rambo said:


> And if you work in HR you obviously know that people are routinely "discriminated against" but it's dressed up as something else. Pregnant women who take their employers for a ride, perpetually "sick" employees, and people who leave because of some type of "conflict" are usually given a wide berth (especially nowadays).


 
And, just to come back on your last point - no I absolutely *don't* know that people are routinely discriminated against. Certainly not where I work, and I wouldn't and never have discriminated against anyone. We would regularly not hire someone because of previous work history or consistently poor attendance records etc, but that is perfectly legit to do so. That is not in anyway discriminatory (9 grounds).


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## BONDGIRL (19 Aug 2009)

Just reading this discussion, very interesting debate and well I want to add something. I work for a big company and I am here years. I had my first baby last yr and since I have returned to work I am being treated completely different.  I am getting asked left right and centre, "when am I having noumber two", "are you finished with your education now you have a child", "are you pregnant yet". These questions are all from men in my dept. Can I add, I am a professional and I work with mostly men.   My own boss asked me a few weeks before I came back to work was I pregnant. I was horrified by this question.  I also have tried my best not to take any leave or sick days since I got back but this is unavoidable.  My child has been sick so many times in the last 4 months from catching illnesses from other kids. My partner and I have shared the load of days off, but still I get evil looks and sly comments thrown my way.  I have to say I must of been very niave, but now I am treated completely different because now I am a Mother.......
Its not a nice feeling people, not nice at all.


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## LM26 (19 Aug 2009)

Only checking this post again now, looks like a bit of a debate has been happening.

I think it is wise what people are saying about opting for the 16 weeks unpaid leave so that I can make a much clearer decision about whether returning to work or not. Personally I think this is unlikely as I want to stay at home for the first few years if I am lucky enough to have a child of course, but as ppl say you never know. Also, In terms of part time work, that is not an option in my profession. 

In terms of deception ....I don't understand how anyone could think that. The terms are clear in the maternity policy about timelines for leaving work so once I adhere to this I dont see how this would be deceptive. I am reading the policy and seeing when is the earliest I could theoretically leave work. These are my rights. I have been here over 5 years and am entitled to them- the company have set these parameters. If I fall pregnant in this job, I dont think I should have to hand my notice in just because Im almost certain I wont return. 

They clearly state that if I plan not to return to work then to give them as much notice as possible. So if I opt for the 16 weeks unpaid leave and decide to stay at home early on in this, I could give them the notice then. I assume some women still do this and dont all return to work. I'm sorry if this comes across as deceitful, suppose I am just thinking things out and honestly believing that returning to work after a baby is not going to happen right away so was putting it out there.

This is a hypothetical situation. I just wanted to more clearly understand the reprecussion of a certain action in this job. I mightnt even be in this job when it happens...whether through my choice or theirs


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## LM26 (19 Aug 2009)

Bondgirl, I am sorry to hear about your treatment since returning to work and your babys ill health.


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## Diziet (19 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> Just reading this discussion, very interesting debate and well I want to add something. I work for a big company and I am here years. I had my first baby last yr and since I have returned to work I am being treated completely different.  I am getting asked left right and centre, "when am I having noumber two", "are you finished with your education now you have a child", "are you pregnant yet". These questions are all from men in my dept. Can I add, I am a professional and I work with mostly men.   My own boss asked me a few weeks before I came back to work was I pregnant. I was horrified by this question.  I also have tried my best not to take any leave or sick days since I got back but this is unavoidable.  My child has been sick so many times in the last 4 months from catching illnesses from other kids. My partner and I have shared the load of days off, but still I get evil looks and sly comments thrown my way.  I have to say I must of been very niave, but now I am treated completely different because now I am a Mother.......
> Its not a nice feeling people, not nice at all.



Not nice at all. But - you are a professional, so deal with it professionally. Prepare a response when someone makes a comment and respond, making it clear it is unacceptable. It will soon stop if you make it clear you don't find the comments professional.

Your male colleagues probably have no idea their behaviour is not acceptable; you have to spell it out.


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## BONDGIRL (19 Aug 2009)

Diziet - I did bring it all up. On the first instance I said to my boss, "eh I don't think its right to ask me that sort of question". but his answer was ah it was off the record, between friends... he knew he shouldnt of asked it.
I also have said several times to many of them in my job, that just because you have a child doesnt mean your career should go out with window. I mean I went to Uni like you did, worked my ass off but now I want a family too..

I suppose these people are not worth bothering with but it's really hard to get a happy medium between home life and work life when you are a Mother. I am constantly feeling guilty for nothing being with my Son all day and then I feel guilty when I am home nursing him and work is falling behind... I suppose thats life, chin up and all that.................


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## becky (19 Aug 2009)

LM26 said:


> Only checking this post again now, looks like a bit of a debate has been happening.
> 
> I think it is wise what people are saying about opting for the 16 weeks unpaid leave so that I can make a much clearer decision about whether returning to work or not. Personally I think this is unlikely as I want to stay at home for the first few years if I am lucky enough to have a child of course, but as ppl say you never know. Also, In terms of part time work, that is not an option in my profession.
> 
> ...


 
Topping up a salary is a perk as far as I'm concerned and not an entitlement like the maternity leave itself.

We had a sisuation of someone taking the full mat leave (paid and unpaid), outstanding holidays and bk holidays. She then applied for a career break which was granted. She applied to return from career break early and this too was granted.

When she returned to work she handed in her next mat leave application and went off 5 or 6 weeks later. 

Legally and according to our policies she did nothing wrong but I don't want her working in my section.


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## LM26 (19 Aug 2009)

Becky, I suppose it is a perk really but why should I not be able to claim it just because I'm 99% sure I wont return. I have been here 5 years, been a loyal and hardworking employee. Due to recently getting married my husband and I have begun considering starting a family and therefore I read the policy as its now relevant to me, and am trying to understand how it applies.

I do appreciate the other point of view though and will take it onboard. As I said before this is very hypothetical at this stage. Renting, looking to buy at moment so nowhere near ready yet!


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## Purple (19 Aug 2009)

LM26, in my opinion (and it's only my opinion) your proposed course of action would be legal but unethical.


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## Diziet (19 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> I suppose these people are not worth bothering with but it's really hard to get a happy medium between home life and work life when you are a Mother. I am constantly feeling guilty for nothing being with my Son all day and then I feel guilty when I am home nursing him and work is falling behind... I suppose thats life, chin up and all that.................



Why is is that difficult? I know life gets a lot busier, but really, work is work and home is home. Why on earth would you feel guilty about work in your home time? Do they pay you for 24 hours a day? Equally, you have chosen to work, and presumably your son gets good care in your absence. Forget the guilt and get on with enjoying your life and your family!

BTW, I have kids, so I am not making the above up. There is no point creating problems with misplaced guilt, there are enough real ones to be getting on with


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## LM26 (20 Aug 2009)

Purple, what do you think the solution is then? If I told them outright at the beginning that I had little intention of returning would that be ok in your opinion?


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## Purple (20 Aug 2009)

LM26 said:


> Purple, what do you think the solution is then? If I told them outright at the beginning that I had little intention of returning would that be ok in your opinion?



Yes, talk to them and see what they say.


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## BONDGIRL (20 Aug 2009)

diziet - I am only a new mother and I am trying to juggle life. So its not as easy as you make out.  You say you have kids, did it not take you a while to adjust?  
Maybe in your job, they are more child friendly etc.  when I have to leave a meeting because I get a call to collect my baby I get looks from everyone there... Its a case of "here we go again". Like I am making it up.. I see this with SO MANY women in his company and outside of here too.  Can I say its mostly coming from Men or from Women who dont have kids..  The men do have kids therefore I really dont understand why they make you feel like this..
You are right I shouldnt feel guilty but I do sometimes, its not that easy to shut off sometiimes.


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## LM26 (20 Aug 2009)

When the time comes, thats what I'll do. It is the most honest approach, and I am a very honest person even if original post didnt sound like it 

Am closing this thread now, thanks for all the replies. 

Edit: reopening thread as another reply came in after I posted the above. Will close at a later time.


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## BONDGIRL (20 Aug 2009)

BTW Ditiet.. I really dont feel like I have a choice NOT to work at the moment either (financial reasons)


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## Purple (20 Aug 2009)

Bondgirl, I've replied to your post in a new thread in LOS (you're nearly at 50 posts).
I'm not attacking your post but I think your post asks some interesting but off topic questions.


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## becky (20 Aug 2009)

LM26 said:


> Purple, what do you think the solution is then? If I told them outright at the beginning that I had little intention of returning would that be ok in your opinion?


 
From what I can see you are asking if you can take full paid mat leave and then resign and the answer is yes.

If it was me I'd just take the SW - hope I don't fall off my pedestal.

I think other posters saying that you won't know until the time comes is worth noting.

There is a girl just back from mat leave here (8 months) and is looking for a career break.  She never thought she's like to a a stay at home mum.


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## maybelline (20 Aug 2009)

LM26 said:


> In summary, can I leave at 4 mths pregnant and still get 26 paid weeks leave?


To answer this question directly (and leaving out all the other arguments!), no you can't leave at 4 months. Social Welfare payments only begin at the earliest after 24 weeks and your employer would only top this up with the difference to make it up to your full salary from then on. 

Also you also don't pay tax on the SW so end up with a little bit more again!


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## terrysgirl33 (20 Aug 2009)

becky said:


> From what I can see you are asking if you can take full paid mat leave and then resign and the answer is yes.
> 
> If it was me I'd just take the SW - hope I don't fall off my pedestal.



You can't just take SW, it's paid on the basis that you are working when you take maternity leave, if you resign then you are not working.


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## MandaC (20 Aug 2009)

Agree with Terry's girl, if its not your intention of returning to work, then you are a leaver and will get a P45.

Maternity leave is paid when you are on leave, so I dont think SW would pay you.


My company I work for does not pay maternity leave because of the amount of abuse the policy got.  People can only blame themselves.


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

PURPLE - I CANT REPLY IN THE LOS SECTION? Maybe I have not posted enough but I really want to post to this as I  have a Lot to say to those who have replied. Can you fix this for me?


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## Purple (21 Aug 2009)

BONDGIRL said:


> PURPLE - I CANT REPLY IN THE LOS SECTION? Maybe I have not posted enough but I really want to post to this as I  have a Lot to say to those who have replied. Can you fix this for me?


Just post 4 more replies in the proper part of AAM, they don’t have to be particularly good or informative (take it from me ) and you’re in.


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

cool thanks for heads up


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## BONDGIRL (21 Aug 2009)

how many posts do I need?


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