# Fire extinguisher maintenance



## R3alEstate (8 Dec 2018)

Hi,

I'm writing on behalf of a friend which lives in an apartment block where the fire extinguishers were due for maintenance in November.

They are still waiting and she is impatient now because she is worried that if something happens the insurance company won't cover in case of fire damage.

She is thinking to contact the fire fighters directly but I told her to wait because she could end up in trouble with her management company.

Do you think I gave her a good advice or is she right? I don't want to be cause of problems for her.
If you think I'm right what would be the right thing to do?

Thanks,

Katrina


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## SimplyWorried (9 Dec 2018)

Hi Katrina,
I would switch my thinking about "getting in trouble with the management company". The management company should be worried about being in trouble with your friend. If she is paying her management fee she is entitled to a correct service.

I gather she has engaged with the management company as much as possible and is getting nowhere. If so I would see no issues with her contacting the fire extinguisher company directly. 
As this is a health and safety issue it needs to be addressed, so I would even go as far to say she should contact the management company one last time and if they are not putting a satisfactory plan in place your friend should then contact her local fire station and inform them of the situation.


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## Leo (10 Dec 2018)

SimpleWorried said:


> If so I would see no issues with her contacting the fire extinguisher company directly.



Unless she's prepared to pay for the service herself, she's at nothing.


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## R3alEstate (10 Dec 2018)

While I understand that my advice wasn't really good and I'll tell my friend to go ahead with his idea, I don't understand what does it mean "Unless she's prepared to pay for the service herself".

Do you mean that if she calls the company they'll ask her the money?

In any case if calling the fire station is in her rights I'll tell her.

Thanks for all your help

Katrina


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## R3alEstate (10 Dec 2018)

I forgot to add that they argued that even if the year lapsed in November a small delay is not a big deal... what they consider as "small" nobody knows!


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## PaddyBloggit (10 Dec 2018)

R3alEstate said:


> Do you mean that if she calls the company they'll ask her the money?



If she takes it on herself to order a service of fire extinguishers, there's a good chance she'll be billed for it. Especially as she's not acting on behalf of the management company.


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## R3alEstate (10 Dec 2018)

ok it makes sense, so I think the only thing to do is to call the fire station.


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## PaddyBloggit (10 Dec 2018)

R3alEstate said:


> ok it makes sense, so I think the only thing to do is to call the fire station.



Have a read of this page: http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-...ncy-ambulance-service/fire-safety-legislation

and http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-...ulance-service-fire-safety-legislation/living

and


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## paper-folder (10 Dec 2018)

If your friend is worried about the fire extinguishers, get her to have a look at the pressure indicator on them: it will be in the green segment if there is sufficient pressure, but in the red if the pressure is too much or if it has been emptied.  The 'service' that fire extinguishers get is to check the pressure and to replace 33% of them with fresh ones on a rolling basis. 

I would be more concerned to check that the fire alarm system had been serviced.  A fire alarm will give people time to escape and is the first line of defence.   A fire extinguisher is only useful if someone is aware of the fire, decides to use the extinguisher and is able to use it correctly.  If the fire alarm control panel is visible, there should be a service cert. or label with it to check.  The panel itself should indicate if there are faults on the system; amber or red lights are usually a bad sign, while green ones indicate that everything is in order.  The panel will often have a text display as well.


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## R3alEstate (11 Dec 2018)

HI paper-folder thanks a lot.

I've just asked my friend, she says that there is no service cert on the alarm control panel but all the lights are green and she remember it being serviced 2 or 3 months ago.  The main reason she is worried about the fire extinguishers is that she thinks if something happens the insurance company would deny the claim on the basis that the fire extinguishers were not serviced.

Thanks again for all the explanations


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## Leo (11 Dec 2018)

Keep in mind as well that if she does report shortcomings in fire safety, one possible outcome is the development is declared unsafe and evacuated. Unlikely for fire extinguishers being a month behind on certification though.

You friend should go to the next AGM and raise these concerns and look for assurances all terms of the block insurance are being complied with.


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## R3alEstate (11 Dec 2018)

That's why I told her to not say anything to the fire fighters... it's a tricky situation. Apparently it's a mistery when the AGM will be held! I'm looking myself to understand how she could find out but couldn't find an answer online.


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## R3alEstate (10 Jan 2019)

Hi,

when the management agent and directors ignore a member of an OMC, what's the formal way to communicate with them?

I'm asking this because my friend is scared that in case of fire the insurance would deny her claim considering the fire extinguishers are not serviced. She thinks that if she complains officially about it then she can sue the directors in case of issues with the insurance company.

Thank you for your help,

Katrina


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## elcato (10 Jan 2019)

Hi Katrina - I see you are as optimistic as ever. Unlikely that being out a month or two will make anything null and void. I presume your friend is a member an d not renting and she means the block insurance and not actual apartment insurance ? As Leo stated your friend needs to go the the AGM and raise concerns there.


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## SimplyWorried (10 Jan 2019)

Hi Katrina,
I would advise that your friend write a letter to the management company and get it delivered by registered post. I would ask them to clarify what 'small delay" in servicing is acceptable and ask for confirmation from the insurance company that they agree to this small delay.
I would forget about ever suing the directors, that wouldn't  get you anywhere. A better approach would be to get elected as a director and work on fixing the issues raised; "Be part of the solution, not part of the problem."


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## R3alEstate (10 Jan 2019)

Hi SimpleWorried, with sending a registered post to the management company, do you mean to send it to the OMC official address? What to do if they, as always, don't reply?

My friend is not comfortable in becoming a director because she doesn't know how to do it. It's also interesting that when the agent sends out the AGM invite there is a form to nominate a director but that has to be returned a week in advance of the meeting: how can she know who to nominate! It's just a fraud, always the same people (the developers) remain in there as directors.

Why suing directors is not an option? If something happens nobody pays? Just my friend?


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## Leo (10 Jan 2019)

R3alEstate said:


> It's also interesting that when the agent sends out the AGM invite there is a form to nominate a director but that has to be returned a week in advance of the meeting: how can she know who to nominate!



You can nominate yourself, or anyone else you know who is a member. This isn't a restricted ballot, the vote will take place during the AGM.


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## elcato (10 Jan 2019)

I'm pretty sure the form is a proxy nomination. To let them know that you are sending someone else to the meeting to act on your behalf.


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## R3alEstate (10 Jan 2019)

Hi elcato, no she showed me 2, one is the one you are saying and the other one has to be returned a week in advance


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## Threadser (10 Jan 2019)

It is true that by law Director Nomination forms have to be sent in advance of an AGM. If the Developers are still the Directors then residents need to organise themselves. Most people (myself included) know very little about being a Director of a Management Company. However myself and my some of my neighbours organised a residents committee, read up about taking the company in charge and were elected at the AGM. It is an unpaid and thankless job but it has ensured that the company is being run according to the needs of residents. Your friend needs to get to know her neighbours and work together to sort this. No one can do it for them but themselves.


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## R3alEstate (10 Jan 2019)

it's so true but also so difficult in some cases


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## R3alEstate (11 Jan 2019)

I've some clarification regarding this situation. I didn't have all the information but after what my friend told me I think there is definitely something shady here.

Apparently there is an OMC and the developer's sons are the directors: they are not technically the developer. It's also interesting that this situation is going on for years now and they keep apartments in the estate just to be able to be the OMC directors. They don't sell or rent these apartments!

The only reason I can think of could be that they have an economic advantage in doing so!

The question is: is my friend entitled to see the receipts for the services that they say have been paid? If yes how to do it and what to do if them don't collaborate?

Thanks again.


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## elcato (11 Jan 2019)

Your friend should get the annual budget once a year before the AGM which gives all this information. Btw how do you know about this information regarding the builder and his sons. Either way your friend needs to turn up to the AGM and ask these questions anyway AND lobby the person/people who told him/her this story to be there as well.


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## R3alEstate (11 Jan 2019)

She told me, it's not a secret in the estate, they have the same name! The document they send is a list of expenses, no receipts.


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## Directly (26 Jan 2019)

Hello, I recommend what the other posters mentioned previously. Your friend seriously needs to get informed of rules, regulations and owners rights re management company law of the developement she is a member of as she owns a property there.
Im assuming she has a mortgage on her property? She then knows the hoops she had to jump through to get the mortgage. Then the exact same responsibility rests with her in relation to this management Company she is a shareholder/member of. 
Thats right- she is an equal "shareholder" of the Owners Management Company that collectively "own" the developement they all live and own properties in. 
She has the law on her side, she needs to use it to her advantage and band together with her neighbours/other property owners and get the better of developers and sons who are walking all over her through her ignorance and timidity of the situation.

I can ussure you, when your friend- or maybe is it you?- whose in this situation, get informed and band together, then start asking the right questions etc, the developer and sons wont know what hit them! Then developer/sons will be very surprised that they are no longer dealing with sleeping sheep-which your friend and other property owners are- and are dealing with on the ball people, the rug will be pulled out from under then!

THE most important note to take from all this is.... your friend and other owners/neighbours have EQUAL right under Management company law as the developer and sons!!! Your friend should get herself OUT of the Victim mentality this situation and get in the frame of mind that she has every Right to DEMAND ANSWERS to her questions over the way the developement is run!!

First advice is she contacts her solicitor-if she has one- phone solicitor on Monday morning to ask them do they familiar with Property Law relating to Multi Occupancy Develeopements, basically the developement she lives in. If they do/dont kniw, ask them to recommend to her a solicitor that does, cos she wants to get informed of her rights and responsibilities under the law AND she wants Advice in HOW to get information from the Management Company that developer controls.
Btw ALL solicitors have basic understand of law of these developements, however obviously there are some solicitors who'd be more up to date in this stuff.

Also itd good idea to eventually get a "bulldog" type of solicitor on your friends side to act as advisor to her and her neighbours/other owners in this developement rather than a timid type if solicitor! 
I know cos I was in Exact same situation as your friend! When you get informed legally about something and confront the bullys, and take power back to yourself, the sense of personal empowerment is huge!! 

Your friend needs to get with the programme and get answers, no more victim blaming/moaning for herself! As the other posters said earlier, she Needs to get Organised with the other owners, get out there, knock on doors, talk to the others.

Then again if this course of action that I'm suggesting is too much for her, she at least needs to get talking to her neighbours, identify the peoperty owners apart from renting tenants and then she will get others to join her and collectively together they can and will get ontop of this situation.


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## Dermot (26 Jan 2019)

Directly.  I am not in disagreement with your post at all in the scenario that is being discussed.  I have written before on an issue about a Management Co. that were originally set up to run a small estate comprising 3 blocks of 10 apartments and 20 houses.  All buildings were finished and water and sewerage were connected and the landscaping finished.  Roadways were not finished (Final surface not put on).  Lighting not done and the appropriate certification of quality of roadway, sewerage certification and water piping have not been certified to the Co.Co. (came under heading of unfinished estate.
Problems.  Developers company went burst (no assets).  Then Developer died suddenly.  Developer had dragged his heels handing over common areas to the "management company" for about 6 years before he died.  Common areas would appear to be in the name of the burst development company.  Common areas would appear in hindsight to need a lot of sorting legally also.  
Directors of management co were also directors of development co.  The directors illegally tried to collect Management fees and for a few years succeded in doing so.  Son replaced father as Dr of Management co (illegally) after father's death.  Wife of developer stayed on the Management Co. but showed no interest  They intimidated people enough not to get involved in the "OMC".  There were too many owners not prepared to do anything as well.  
Current situation.  Co. Co. not interested in finishing and taking over the estate ( less than €100,00 would finish it ) as well as the reasons given before as there was at all times and up to now no co-operation whatsoever with the devlopers even in hading over the common areas.  Management Co. has been struck off by revenue. ( not filing returns). It luckily is a low maintenance estate.  No common areas within the apartments.  Of course there is no insurance.  An absolute mess.  There should be some legal safeguards for purchasers in an above type scenario.


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