# BOI Smart Funds - What to do



## Hopeful10 (14 Jan 2010)

Hi 

I invested €30,000 in BoI Smart funds in Feb 08. The majority of the funds were invested in Evergreen funds and the rest was with in Innovator funds. To make a long story short the funds fell very quickly. The lowest rate that they dropped to was €19,000 in March 09 and they are currently at €24,000. I really want to make the most with this money and am wondering what to do. Should I leave the money there and wait for it to come back up or should I take the €24,000 now and try to recoup the losses elsewhere? 

Any advice would be most greatly appreciated. 
Thanks


----------



## mercman (14 Jan 2010)

Oh dear ! Welcome to my world. I invested heavily in these funds in 2006 and have had an ongoing battle with them ever since. Their customer service is probably the most pathetic outfit in the entire country. My debacle is well documented on AAM and will soon have its own web site showing and evidencing all and sundry the joys of investing with Bank of Ireland.

But to answer your query, it really is not for me or any other poster to advise you on an open forum as to what direction you should make or take. The recovery of your funds has not been that bad considering the meltdown as to what already occurred.

Moving forward, take a look around and see where you think your investments may be better serviced. Speak with an independent Broker or search the Web as it is your choice ultimately.  

Question, were you put on any special Allocation Bonus or reduced Management Charge ?? There are a heap of investment products on the market with one thing in common. They are all sold commission basis so whoever sells it to you will be creaming off the top no matter up or down. In the main they are investing in the same products and markets: equity investments, so its the charges that will count long term.

There is a chance in the near future that BoI and New Ireland products (SMART Funds), might be either sold or existing holdings transferred via a different regime but with the same Financial Provider on a drastically reduced Management Charge than what policyholders and / or new customers are on or being sold currently or in the future.


----------



## Hopeful10 (14 Jan 2010)

Many thanks for your reply Mercman. I am not sure about the management charges to be honest, would have to check my paperwork. I am sorry to hear that you have also had issues with this shower! Its a disaster. My gut is to cut my losses but then I feel that it has recovered well in the last year so maybe I should stick around. Anyhow, thanks for your help. It is good just to get other people's opinions and points of view.


----------



## mercman (14 Jan 2010)

Hopeful10 said:


> I am not sure about the management charges to be honest, would have to check my paperwork.



You are probably being charged 1.5% for the Evergreen Fund and 1.65% for the Innovator. The new offer if passed and approved by the Financial Regulator should operate at 0.4% approximately.


----------



## Hopeful10 (14 Jan 2010)

That sounds about right Mercman. Is that change expected this year? Do you think it will effect the value of the funds? Thanks so much for your help.


----------



## mercman (14 Jan 2010)

Hopeful10 said:


> Is that change expected this year? Do you think it will effect the value of the funds? Thanks so much for your help.



Yes I do think it will happen quite soon. Exact date cannot be confirmed at this moment in time. 

The only way if will effect the funds is to make them rise against a current price on the day that a valuation is requested. Management Fees are implicit within a fund. BoI Life and / or New Ireland will have to credit each fund holder with the difference that is implicit within the fund versus the charge that is on offer.


----------



## Hopeful10 (14 Jan 2010)

I have absolutely no experience in such matters as I am sure you have guessed by now. I am not in any rush to make a decision so I will probably wait and see what happens in the coming months! Thanks again for your help


----------



## Hopeful10 (14 Jan 2010)

BoI Life and / or New Ireland will have to credit each fund holder with the difference that is implicit within the fund versus the charge that is on offer.[/quote]

Would you mind explaining this a little further Mercman? I am unsure of how they will do this. Many thanks


----------



## mercman (14 Jan 2010)

Basically if a Policy holder is on a special deal from the Financial Provider or broker or both, in this case BoI or New Ireland Assurance.The normal Management Fee is implicit within the fund. Therefore in the case of a special deal, the Provider issues additional fund units to the value of the fund(s) to make and allow for the compensation of the deal offered.


----------



## Hopeful10 (14 Jan 2010)

Thats great, thanks for being so helpful.


----------



## johnny1234 (17 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> There is a chance in the near future that BoI and New Ireland products (SMART Funds), might be either sold or existing holdings transferred via a different regime but with the same Financial Provider on a drastically reduced Management Charge.



Mercman, is this a real possibility ? Haven't seen or read anything about it in the media. Will all fund holdings of these institutions be eligible into this scheme ?


----------



## mercman (17 Jan 2010)

johnny1234 said:


> Mercman, is this a real possibility ?



After checking, I can advise that it is a definite possibility. Just having Insurance and legals sorted before its all systems go.


----------



## bor (26 Jan 2010)

Hi,

I am about ot look into investing in lump sum and was going to speak to the BoI rep...are ye saying I can get the same products from an Independent broker for less management fees??

On a side note, anyone any advice on what SMART fund they think will be the best performer - thinking 3-5 yr investment.


----------



## mercman (26 Jan 2010)

bor said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am about ot look into investing in lump sum and was going to speak to the BoI rep...are ye saying I can get the same products from an Independent broker for less management fees??
> 
> On a side note, anyone any advice on what SMART fund they think will be the best performer - thinking 3-5 yr investment.



I have enough files to give reason as to why not to invest with SMART Funds. After 40 months of pure hell, spoof, lies lies and more lies, then the Financial Ombudsman, The High Court and still not fixed up yet I would well advise choosing another Investment Provider.

It is impossible to say which fund would be the best to invest in. Nobody can look into the future. There will be a provider/broker very soon that will be able to offer these funds at a vastly reduced Management Fee if you still haven't lost interest.


----------



## bor (26 Jan 2010)

mercman said:


> I have enough files to give reason as to why not to invest with SMART Funds. After 40 months of pure hell, spoof, lies lies and more lies, then the Financial Ombudsman, The High Court and still not fixed up yet I would well advise choosing another Investment Provider.
> 
> It is impossible to say which fund would be the best to invest in. Nobody can look into the future. There will be a provider/broker very soon that will be able to offer these funds at a vastly reduced Management Fee if you still haven't lost interest.


 
Thanks Mercman....you have convinced me, think I will call into an independent advisor - even though i often wonder if such a thing exists...maybe he will advise me to wait for the resuced fee as well...thanks again.


----------



## mercman (26 Jan 2010)

bor, please ensure that no matter what you are offered get it in writing. It was this that made me have a case in the first instance -- oh promises promises, I could literally write a book on it.


----------



## mercman (26 Jan 2010)

I was just thinking, an Independent adviser will not be able to help you in the case of a problem. They get treated like muck as well  by the Financial Providers. Do your own research first, of everything available in the market.


----------



## bor (26 Jan 2010)

Will do....cant be too careful these days, too many horror stories out there...hope you get yours sorted soon - 

Might end up playing safe and just lumping it in a 3% fixed term deposit a/c for 6 mts...market doesnt seem to be ready for any big jumps quiet yet..


----------



## stevie (21 Feb 2010)

Hopeful10 said:


> Should I leave the money there and wait for it to come back up or should I take the €24,000 now and try to recoup the losses elsewhere?
> 
> Any advice would be most greatly appreciated.
> Thanks



Just to point out also Hopeful10 you need to consider also that you will not be liable for DIRT tax on the BOI Smart funds up to the point where you would at least be re-couping your initial investment of 30k. On the other hand if you were to encash now and realize a 6k loss you cannot roll over this loss against any gains made in a new investment Fund for DIRT tax purposes. You will immediately be liable to DIRT tax for any gains made in the new investment Fund upon encashement. Hence I would advise that it is anticipated that the new Funds are expected to significantly outperform the Smart Funds before you make any move.


----------



## mercman (21 Feb 2010)

stevie said:


> liable for DIRT tax on the BOI Smart funds up to the point where you would at least be re-couping your initial investment of 30k. On the other hand if you were to encash now and realize a 6k loss you cannot roll over this loss against any gains made in a new investment Fund for DIRT tax purposes. You will immediately be liable to DIRT tax for any gains made in the new investment Fund upon encashement. Hence I would advise that it is anticipated that the new Funds are expected to significantly outperform the Smart Funds before you make any move.



Stevie, you have your taxes mixed up. You mean CGT not DIRT tax. CGT is applicable to Capital Gains. DIRT is applicable to monies on deposit. Nobody can say which funds will outperform others, so you are wrong to advise on these matters.


----------



## stevie (1 Mar 2010)

mercman said:


> Stevie, you have your taxes mixed up. You mean CGT not DIRT tax. CGT is applicable to Capital Gains. DIRT is applicable to monies on deposit.



Thanks for spotting that error on my part mercman.




mercman said:


> Nobody can say which funds will outperform others, so you are wrong to advise on these matters.



Granted, at best we can only make a prediction on how a particular investment fund is going to perform and even so such a prediction could be viewed as a pointless exercise given the way Funds and markets have behaved and performed over the past 18 months or so for example. I did not advise the OP to invest or not invest in a particular Fund, I merely pointed out a potential pitfall of moving from a Fund where they would realize a capital loss to another Fund. It may well be worth the OP's while moving in their current situation regardless of this pitfall but the reason for my post was to ensure they were fully aware of this pitfall first.


----------



## mercman (2 Mar 2010)

Stevie, my post was to warn those that choose to invest in BoI Smart funds that whilst their funds maybe Ok, the problems that could exist far will supersede any gains you might make. A nightmare of a company, and after being to the Ombudsman and the High Court, winning on each occasion, it just does not get any easier. The easiest and best approach for those wishing to invest is to go with a Financial Provider that won't cause you grief especially when it is of their making. We have all seen the greed of the FPs in this country. It is not just banking; it remains in every aspect of their business.


----------



## galley (2 Mar 2010)

I have 2 of the BoI smart funds. I got a letter saying that they come under the 1% Gov levy regarding Life Assurance products. I made a few phonecalls. Although I took the product understanding it was for 7 years (loyality bonus), according to BoI its open ended for 67 years- hence considered as a life assurance policy. Meeting with an advisor next week. I asked for a review of my management fees (thanks to the above thread) but another other things I should put on the agenda? Thanks


----------



## mercman (2 Mar 2010)

Galley, if you are meeting with an official from BoI ensure that you have everything mentioned in at your meeting placed in writing and signed before the meeting ends. As for the Management Fee, there will be a product on the market, quite soon, offering Investors a Management Fee with a fraction of the normal M Fee. Just be careful because their antics are disgusting at its best.


----------



## Hopeful10 (20 Nov 2010)

Hi guys
I am the OP on this thread: am back in a state of confusion re my money, as is the whole country I am sure! At the moment I still have money invested in BOI Smart Funds ; Evergreen and Innovator funds. Since my original post I decided to leave the funds in the hope that they would come back up and they rose marginally to €25,000. Considering the impending bailout I am just wondering now are these funds going to be affected? If I leave them there is there any guarantee for my money? I'm really sorry for the questions but am just concerned about my hard saved dosh! If I were to pull them out and stick them in a UK based bank with branches in Ireland, is that any safer? 
Many thanks for all your help


----------



## mercman (21 Nov 2010)

There are simply no funds that will beat the market. It is impossible. As for what others have pointed out the operators of the fund are simply money hungry and in essence the fees appropriated are huge. Have a read at this thread which is based on an independent report from the UK, http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=144230. The fees that these companies take are completely out of order. Your best bet is to start investing in ETFs which are specific funds and have minimal expenses.


----------



## Thargor (22 Nov 2010)

Any other opinions on what the recent bailout will do to these funds does anyone know?


----------

