# Has John O' Donoghue resigned yet



## z104 (10 Sep 2009)

If not, what is keeping him from resigning? Surely his neck is not that thick that he doesn't realise he has to resign after squandering so much of our income tax money.

Why should we pay from him to act like royalty.


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## The_Banker (10 Sep 2009)

He hasn't resigned because members of the opposition are not making enough waves.

I wonder why?


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## aonfocaleile (10 Sep 2009)

Name the last politician to resign in disgrace - I think it was Ivor Callely who resigned his junior ministry over getting his house painted. After all the scandals in recent years - free spending, drunk driving offences and god knows what else, I'd say you'll be waiting a long time if you're expecting him to resign.


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## liaconn (10 Sep 2009)

I would have thought a mass resignation would be appropriate. They're all a disgrace.


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## Graham_07 (10 Sep 2009)

liaconn said:


> I would have thought a mass resignation would be appropriate. They're all a disgrace.


 

But are they a


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## z104 (10 Sep 2009)

I was in Iceland when the people made their minister resign. They picketed government building for 7 days and 7 nights around the clock banging biscuit tins , whistles, drums e.t.c.and made alot of noise and held a vigil outside until they got their resignations. I think the probelm with Irish people is that we protest for an hour or two or maybe go on a march and then off to the pub for some Lunch or some shopping.

We're pathethic protestors and generally accept things way to easily.


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## Staples (10 Sep 2009)

Niallers said:


> Surely his neck is not that thick that he doesn't realise he has to resign after squandering so much of our income tax money.


 
It is. And don't call me Surely.


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## Lex Foutish (10 Sep 2009)

I know I posted it before but this was surely John O' Donoghue's finest moment................. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZYRDDukBMg


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## bamboozle (10 Sep 2009)

aonfocaleile said:


> Name the last politician to resign in disgrace - I think it was Ivor Callely who resigned his junior ministry over getting his house painted. After all the scandals in recent years - free spending, drunk driving offences and god knows what else, I'd say you'll be waiting a long time if you're expecting him to resign.


 

Callely went into hiding for a few days and even Bertie couldnt get in touch with him, still he's now a Senator (one of Bertie's appointments) and his son rang for the local elections last time out- thankfully failing

Irish politicians dont resign in disgrace, as their fellow TD's row in behind them and refuse to force the issue.
it is despicable how that Accountant resigned from his role of overseeing reform of political expenses as he received no help from the members of Dail Eireann.


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## cork (10 Sep 2009)

Why is O Donoghue being signaled out?

Are expenses not claimed by public servamts and other TDs?

A lot of media hoopla. A country borrowing 400 million a week focused in on this.

Pointless media witch hunt.

These expenses were approved. So why focus in on the claimant?


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## liaconn (10 Sep 2009)

Even when they are forced to go, they are welcomed back in to the fold within no time eg class act Bev.


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## TarfHead (10 Sep 2009)

cork said:


> Pointless media witch hunt.


 
+1

Without going into the specifics of each line item, I doubt that the Minister personally arranged each hotel and hired car. It is reasonable to expect that our Government Ministers don't say in hostels when they're abroad on official business. I accept there's a line between a hostel and the Four Seasons and that the Department strayed too many times towards the Four Seasons end of the line.

The bigger issue is the Oireachtas and oversight. They decide their own rules and checks and balances and that, in any walk of life, is a mistake.

There are bigger issues than rented hats or tribunal lawyers claiming for a bar of chocolate from the hotel minibar.


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## z104 (10 Sep 2009)

He is responsible for his departments expenditre so should have the appropriate checks and balances in place.

Yes, he is 100% resposnible becuase he should know better. If he doesn't know better then he should not be in his position.


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## cork (10 Sep 2009)

> Yes, he is 100% resposnible becuase he should know better. If he doesn't know better then he should not be in his position.


 
Should he have used price comparrison websites?

For pittance sake - the country is borrowing 400 million a week.

The IMF are at the door and the media are harping on about this stuff.

Why have one rule for him and another rule for other public servants and Tds?

The system of expenses should be over-hauled.

But finger pointing at the Ceann Comhairle is a witch hunt.


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## MrMan (10 Sep 2009)

Why not start at the top and work our way down? to say it is a witch hunt is to somehow make out poor ol John is some sort of victim.


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## z104 (10 Sep 2009)

MrMan said:


> Why not start at the top and work our way down? to say it is a witch hunt is to somehow make out poor ol John is some sort of victim.


 
+10000000000

And there is the crux of the matter, If People felt that they were accountable the abuse would not take place becuase they would know the consequences. Somebody has to be responsible and people heads should roll. 

If he is not responsible for his own expenditure then who is? Somebody's head should roll and I say start with the department head.


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## z104 (11 Sep 2009)

There is a smell of  " LET THEM EAT CAKE " about it alright.

These people are so out of touch with reality, They probably don't even realise how out of touch with reality they are.


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## bamboozle (11 Sep 2009)

cork said:


> Should he have used price comparrison websites?
> 
> For pittance sake - the country is borrowing 400 million a week.
> 
> ...


 
have you ever heard the expression look after your pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves

the very reason our country is borrowing 400m a week is because successive FF governments allowed a culture of extravagant expenditure to exist.plus the complete dependence on the government driven property boom which was bound to last forever. From the very top down we had our former Taoiseach handing out jobs to the boys (Celia being appointed to the board of the National Consumer Agency being the highlight)
We have had ridiculous pay increases for all members of Dail Eireann to such an extent that our inept leader is currently paid more than the heads of USA, Germany, UK, France, in fact our backbench TD’s earn considerably more than Russian PM Vladamir Putin.
This ineptness, greed and complete disregard for tax payers money has also been reflected in the outrageous pensions/golden handshakes given to disgraced former civil servants Roddy Molloy and Patrick Neary, believe it or not Neary’s state pension of over €140k per year is greater than the salary of Ben Bernanke the head of the US Fed Reserve

So perhaps the ourtrage directed at O’Donoghue can be considered a witchhunt, but this outrage is merely a reflection of the outrage of the broader public of this country who have in the last 12 months suffered unemployment, or are looking over their shoulders at work worrying if their position is safe or for those within the somewhat safer environs of the public service have had pension levy’s and pay freezes.

We’re borrowing 400m a week, yes the IMF are knocking at the door and these are the exact reasons why we need a root and branch overhaul of how this country is run and that should start at the very top.


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## michaelm (11 Sep 2009)

The laugh is that the Ceann Comhairle is chairman of the House of the Oireachtas Commission which oversees the review of expenses.


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## cork (11 Sep 2009)

> the very reason our country is borrowing 400m a week is because successive FF governments allowed a culture of extravagant expenditure to exist.plus the complete dependence on the government driven property boom which was bound to last forever.


 


Trade Unions also sat in partnership and all the social groups. Peopls went crazy buying houses not alone in Ireland but across the EU.

It was stupidity that caused the property frenzy.

People sleeping overnight in cars so they'd purchase a house.


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## peelaaa (11 Sep 2009)

Irish politicians are gutless, and have no morals


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## Tinker Bell (14 Sep 2009)

Niallers said:


> If not, what is keeping him from resigning? Surely his neck is not that thick that he doesn't realise he has to resign after squandering so much of our income tax money.
> 
> Why should we pay from him to act like royalty.


I know someone else with a thick neck. She once used an Air Corps chopper to go out west to open an off licence as a favour for a friend


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## annet (14 Sep 2009)

Minister responsible for the Drumm who coincidently didnt take any voluntary reduction in his overbloated salary????


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## Bronte (16 Sep 2009)

The_Banker said:


> He hasn't resigned because members of the opposition are not making enough waves.
> 
> I wonder why?


 
Yes what are they all hiding from?  Enda Kenny even didn't think he should resign as he does a good job.


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## Bronte (16 Sep 2009)

michaelm said:


> The laugh is that the Ceann Comhairle is chairman of the House of the Oireachtas Commission which oversees the review of expenses.


 
One person did resign of course, the only honourable one the accountant.  John O' Donoghue epitomises all that is wrong with the way Ireland is run.  Meanwhile they will have been slapping his back down at Listowel yesterday, and voting him in the next time he faces an election.  The Irish like the rogues.  Plus ca change....


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## bamboozle (16 Sep 2009)

Bronte said:


> One person did resign of course, the only honourable one the accountant. John O' Donoghue epitomises all that is wrong with the way Ireland is run. Meanwhile they will have been slapping his back down at Listowel yesterday, and voting him in the next time he faces an election. The Irish like the rogues. Plus ca change....


 

unfortunately the Ceann Comhairle gets automatically re-elected!


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## Sunny (16 Sep 2009)

Bronte said:


> One person did resign of course, the only honourable one the accountant. John O' Donoghue epitomises all that is wrong with the way Ireland is run. Meanwhile they will have been slapping his back down at Listowel yesterday, and voting him in the next time he faces an election. The Irish like the rogues. Plus ca change....


 
Might have something to do with how O'Donoghue bought their love. Look at how much they benefited from his time as minister


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## Tinker Bell (16 Sep 2009)

Just saw the front page of Herald AM and there he is. At the Listowel Races. Suited and booted with matching bandage on index finger. Now if he were Ronnie Barker (Open All Hours) one might give an educated guess that his finger got stuck in the till. The old joke about the sick barman being caught with his fingers in the till - he thought the change would do him good - springs to mind. [Any resemblance to living beings (human or otherwise) is purely coincidental].


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## Purple (16 Sep 2009)

There’s far more to it with O’Donoghue; he used his position as a government minister to have extravagant paid holidays for himself and his wife. Just look at the number of events and race meetings he was “invited” to around Europe. He was the bane of embassy staff throughout his tenure as minister.
 IMO he’s a buffoon, a bully and the quintessential parish-pump politician.


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## Caveat (16 Sep 2009)

Purple said:


> He’s a buffoon, a bully and the quintessential parish-pump politician.


 
Nice summation.


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## Sunny (16 Sep 2009)

Purple said:


> There’s far more to it with O’Donoghue; he used his position as a government minister to have extravagant paid holidays for himself and his wife. Just look at the number of events and race meetings he was “invited” to around Europe. He was the bane of embassy staff throughout his tenure as minister.
> He’s a buffoon, a bully and the quintessential parish-pump politician.


 
Well said. 

The fact that not one member of the opposition has come out and openly asked for his resignation says it all about the standard of Irish politics.


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## Shawady (16 Sep 2009)

Sunny said:


> Well said.
> 
> The fact that not one member of the opposition has come out and openly asked for his resignation says it all about the standard of Irish politics.


 

Agreed. Richard Bruton was on the radio this morning and basically said all JOD had to do was say sorry and we could move on.


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## Pique318 (16 Sep 2009)

Sunny said:


> Well said.
> 
> The fact that not one member of the opposition has come out and openly asked for his resignation says it all about the standard of Irish politics.



Well people in glasshouses and all that.

They're all probably as guilty of it as him, that's why they don't want to rock the boat.
Any decent investigation by the C&AG would probably result in the lot of them being forced to resign.....hhmmm, now there's a point !


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## D8Lady (16 Sep 2009)

I was on a business trip recently with a colleague. For expenses I had to list and produce receipts for everything, right down to the convertor plug for my laptop costing €4.50. 
On the way back we each got a taxi back from the airport. We were asked why we didn't share. 

With every business and every person looking very closely at their finances, the only people who are exempt from this are TDs. Revenue do not accept unvouched expences. 

There is one standard (a term I'd use loosely) for TDs and then there is everyone else. 

I find it galling when I hear cliches about shoulders to the wheel, sharing the pain etc when not one of them will adhere to the basic practice of listing their expenses. 

In business, what gets measured, gets done.


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## Complainer (17 Sep 2009)

D8Lady said:


> On the way back we each got a taxi back from the airport. We were asked why we didn't share.


If you were in the public sector, you'd be sharing with the great unwashed. You'd only be reimbursed for the cost of public transport, i.e. the 747 bus into town.



D8Lady said:


> With every business and every person looking very closely at their finances, the only people who are exempt from this are TDs. Revenue do not accept unvouched expences.
> 
> There is one standard (a term I'd use loosely) for TDs and then there is everyone else.
> 
> ...



Many private business will have fixed-price unvouched expenses for reps or other staff who are continuously on the road. There is nothing unusual about having somebody on a fixed, unvouched allowance for lunch or dinner or overnight. Revenue have no problem with this unvouched approach, up to Civil Service limits - see http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/paye/guide/employers-guide-paye-expenses.html#section5


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## Bronte (18 Sep 2009)

Complainer said:


> If you were in the public sector, you'd be sharing with the great unwashed. You'd only be reimbursed for the cost of public transport, i.e. the 747 bus into town.


 
And what is wrong with that?  I do not believe the no civil servant uses a taxi ever, I'm sure there is a rule that creates a reason for exceptions?  I wonder what the annual civil service bill is for taxis?


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## Complainer (19 Sep 2009)

Bronte said:


> And what is wrong with that?  I do not believe the no civil servant uses a taxi ever, I'm sure there is a rule that creates a reason for exceptions?  I wonder what the annual civil service bill is for taxis?



I never suggested there was anything wrong with it. I was merely playing a bit of Monty Python 'luxury' game, whereby D8Lady seemed to think that the idea of sharing a taxi would be difficult, whereas in fact it is quite luxurious.

FYI, the rule (in my organisation) states that taxis can only be used where no public transport is available. This is fairly short-sighted, as in many cases, the cost of the individual's time exceeds the saving on the taxi fare, but there you go.

Several public bodies (including Dept Finance) have cancelled their corporate taxi accounts. If staff need a taxi, they need to cough up for the fee themselves, and claim it back on expenses.


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## Bronte (22 Sep 2009)

You are contradicting yourself, first you say public servants have to use public transport and then you mention corporate taxi accounts for public bodies?  And that old chestnut, when public transport is not available you can use a taxi.  Rules are great aren't they.  Still no figure from anyone on how much the public service spend on taxis? Naturally it will be a pittance, an inconsequential figure that we the public won't be told about.


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## Complainer (22 Sep 2009)

Bronte said:


> You are contradicting yourself, first you say public servants have to use public transport and then you mention corporate taxi accounts for public bodies?


Perhaps you might like to go back and read what I actually said, rather that putting your words in my mount. I did not say that 'public servants have to use public transport'. Check it out.



Bronte said:


> And that old chestnut, when public transport is not available you can use a taxi. Rules are great aren't they.



Perhaps you can suggest an alternative approach? How would you suggest that I travel to the airport at 5am for a 7am flight, given that I'm about 45 minutes walk away from the Aircoach. Or how would you suggest that I travel to a conference at a Dublin hotel with 4 boxes of materials and 2 pop-up stands - try bringing that on Dublin Bus? The policy is sensible, and is applied in a sensible manner by staff.



Bronte said:


> Still no figure from anyone on how much the public service spend on taxis? Naturally it will be a pittance, an inconsequential figure that we the public won't be told about.


There is no conspiracy. Taxi figures from several public bodies have been widely reported on (HSE & RTE spring to mind). If you want the others, go digging through the annual reports, or submit FOI requests or parlimentary questions. All the info is available. Meanwhile, as you focus on this minor issue, our country is being bankrupted by bankers and property developers.


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## Towger (22 Sep 2009)

Complainer said:


> Perhaps you can suggest an alternative approach? How would you suggest that I travel to the airport at 5am for a 7am flight, given that I'm about 45 minutes walk away from the Aircoach. Or how would you suggest that I travel to a conference at a Dublin hotel with 4 boxes of materials and 2 pop-up stands.



What happened to your car, get rid of it?


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## Sunny (22 Sep 2009)

Towger said:


> What happened to your car, get rid of it?


 
Come on people. Almost every business in the private sector uses taxis. As long as the system is not abused, there is no problem with it. Its a legitimate expense. 
Lets not be childish about these things when the debate is about to move on to much bigger things.


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## Purple (22 Sep 2009)

Sunny said:


> Come on people. Almost every business in the private sector uses taxis. As long as the system is not abused, there is no problem with it. Its a legitimate expense.
> Lets not be childish about these things when the debate is about to move on to much bigger things.


 Agreed.


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## Complainer (22 Sep 2009)

Towger said:


> What happened to your car, get rid of it?


I don't have a car (though my wife does). I normally cycle to work. If I did have a car, I wouldn't get paid for parking at the airport, which makes it impractical to use my car for travel.

But do feel free to keep nit-picking and falling for the Indo's trap of creating division between public and private sector, if that's what floats your boat.


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## Purple (22 Sep 2009)

Complainer said:


> I don't have a car (though my wife does). I normally cycle to work. If I did have a car, I wouldn't get paid for parking at the airport, which makes it impractical to use my car for travel.


How did we get from John O'Donoghue from Complainers car ownership details?


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## sydthebeat (22 Sep 2009)

so, has he resigned or not?


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## Sunny (22 Sep 2009)

sydthebeat said:


> so, has he resigned or not?


 
Don't be silly. He said sorry so we are all supposed to forgive and forget.


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## liaconn (23 Sep 2009)

Bronte said:


> And what is wrong with that? I do not believe the no civil servant uses a taxi ever, I'm sure there is a rule that creates a reason for exceptions? I wonder what the annual civil service bill is for taxis?


 
Of course civil servants have to use taxis sometimes. For instance, if I travel to Brussels I often don't get back to Dublin until 10.30 or 11 at night and have to get way over to the other side of the city where I lilve. Are you suggesting a female on her own should be expected to get a bus or aircoach into o'connell street and then stand around there at that hour of the night waiting on her own for a bus?

Likewise if my flight to Brussels is at 6.30 and I get delayed leaving the office until, say, 5.00 then obviously I have to get a taxi.

If I'm going to a meeting in Dublin I'm expected to walk or get the bus unless it's miles away and not on a bus route in which case I can take a taxi.

Obviously there has to be a bit of flexibility and reason about this. Implying that civil servants having to take taxis now and again in the course of business is on a par with John O Donoghue's behaviour is ridiculous.


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## Bronte (6 Oct 2009)

liaconn said:


> Of course civil servants have to use taxis sometimes. For instance, if I travel to Brussels I often don't get back to Dublin until 10.30 or 11 at night and have to get way over to the other side of the city where I lilve. Are you suggesting a female on her own should be expected to get a bus or aircoach into o'connell street and then stand around there at that hour of the night waiting on her own for a bus?
> 
> .


 
I had to travel up to Dublin from the country late on a Sunday night many times and I didn't have the money for a taxi so I got a bus from O' Connell street on my own late at night so I don't see the issue.  Lots of male and females do this all the time.  Is O' Connell street a no go area nowadays?  

I wouldn't have a problem with civil servants getting a taxi late at night but with this exception and your other ones it's quite obvious civil servants use taxis all the time.


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## Purple (6 Oct 2009)

liaconn said:


> Are you suggesting a female on her own should be expected to get a bus or aircoach into o'connell street and then stand around there at that hour of the night waiting on her own for a bus?



That's sexist; women are far less likely to be attacked than men. The Equality Authority has found against employers who provide taxis for female members of staff but not male ones.


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## Mpsox (6 Oct 2009)

I had to laugh when I saw Sinn Fein calling for O'Dohoghue's head for abuse of expenses, given that they were claiming expenses for the House of Parliment in London. At least O'Donoghue turns up every day

Some of what he did was OTT(and very OTT). He could have got a taxi between the Heathrow airports for €15 for example, but some of it was legitmate. Reality is that if you travel on business, you will rack up expenses, problem to me is that his expenses were exhorbitant and the reason behind some of his travel was very questionable

I'd have to wonder what Enda Kenny's expenses were like when he was a minister


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## Sunny (6 Oct 2009)

Mpsox said:


> I had to laugh when I saw Sinn Fein calling for O'Dohoghue's head for abuse of expenses, given that they were claiming expenses for the House of Parliment in London. At least O'Donoghue turns up every day
> 
> Some of what he did was OTT(and very OTT). He could have got a taxi between the Heathrow airports for €15 for example, but some of it was legitmate. Reality is that if you travel on business, you will rack up expenses, problem to me is that his expenses were exhorbitant and the reason behind some of his travel was very questionable
> 
> I'd have to wonder what Enda Kenny's expenses were like when he was a minister


 
I don't think anyone is giving out about general travel expenses. I don't expect him to get the ferry. However you don't run up an expenses bill of close to €1 million euro over 5-7 years unless you are taking the absolute ****.


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## Caveat (6 Oct 2009)

Mpsox said:


> I'd have to wonder what Enda Kenny's expenses were like when he was a minister


 
I dunno. Personally I wouldn't be too confident that he was that extravagant. He exudes caution and frugality to me.

All just hunch/opinion of course.


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## Mpsox (6 Oct 2009)

Sunny said:


> I don't think anyone is giving out about general travel expenses. I don't expect him to get the ferry. However you don't run up an expenses bill of close to €1 million euro over 5-7 years unless you are taking the absolute ****.


 

Absolutely agree, the guy went racing for Ireland when he was minister. And why did he take the wife everywhere?


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## Staples (6 Oct 2009)

Bronte said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with civil servants getting a taxi late at night but with this exception and your other ones it's quite obvious civil servants use taxis all the time.


 
There seems to a belief that civil servants may do what they like when it comes to travel. There are guidelines in place for the use of public transport which indicate the circumstances in which the use of taxies is permitted. Without going into the detail, it's generally confined to circumstances where no alternative bus or train service is available or where it would be more cost-effective to use a taxi (e.g. if rushing to catch a plane home where the alternative would be to incur the expense of another night's accommodation).  All government departments are subject to audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General who is free to examine the extent to which the relevant guidelines have been adhered to. 

And by the way, fffor those who may be operating under a misconception, foreign (and indeed any) travel on behalf of the state does not equate to having a good time. Typically, the destination is Brussels, not Copacabana Beach (or even Cheltenham). It's far from glamourous as anyone who regularly takes the evening flight from Brussels will attest to. Arriving home tired after midnight (without overtime or time in lieu, by the way) with the prospect of another early start the next day is not something most civil servants would actually choose to do. They'd far rather be at home in the company of their families. The notion that they're on some sort of gravy train is laughable.


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## Sunny (6 Oct 2009)

Mpsox said:


> Absolutely agree, the guy went racing for Ireland when he was minister. And why did he take the wife everywhere?


 
I know. Most executives I know use business trips as an excuse to get away!! 

The guy is a disgrace but the worst part is that I am sure they are worst examples out there. 

The thing that really disgusts me is that when he was Minister Of Sport, he was spending thousands on hotel rooms and flights. He mightn't have thought of it as a lot of money but I bet one of our underfunded athletes would have been grateful for it. Martin Cullen is the same flying first class to the olympics. The priorities are just all wrong. 

He has to go and the oppostion need to show what they are made of. Apologies and procedures to make sure it won't happen again won't do this time. It's a good test of the political system in this Country. The UK got rid of their Speaker (and numerous MP's). Now its time for us to do the same.


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## Staples (6 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> I dunno. Personally I wouldn't be too confident that he was that extravagant. He exudes caution and frugality to me.


 
You're right.  He's extremely frugal with his own money and cautious in making sure he doesn't get stuck with the bill.


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## dewdrop (6 Oct 2009)

The end is near


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## D8Lady (6 Oct 2009)

Any minute now...


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## Complainer (6 Oct 2009)

Bronte said:


> I had to travel up to Dublin from the country late on a Sunday night many times and I didn't have the money for a taxi so I got a bus from O' Connell street on my own late at night so I don't see the issue.  Lots of male and females do this all the time.  Is O' Connell street a no go area nowadays?
> 
> I wouldn't have a problem with civil servants getting a taxi late at night but with this exception and your other ones it's quite obvious civil servants use taxis all the time.


An employer has a legal duty to ensure a safe working for all employees. There is nothing unreasonable about an employer cover the cost of late night or early morning taxis in these circumstances. 

I'll be getting a taxi to Hueston tomorrow morning at about 7.30 am. To get there by public transport in time for my train, I'd need to leave the house at about 6.30 am. On the return trip, I'll be on the Luas, followed by a lift from a family member. It is just common sense.


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## z107 (6 Oct 2009)

I hope John O'Donoghue is forced to pay back our money, with interest and penalties, and doesn't just get off with resigning.


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## NOAH (6 Oct 2009)

when he goes the good thing is he will take quite a few with him and that should be the start in saving a good few bob.

Of course he will get a lucrative pension so will have loads of time for the races.

A great man.

To take a flight to Kerry and have the car go as well takes the biscuit in a very big way.

noah


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## Crunchie (6 Oct 2009)

RTE just reported he's to resign next week


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## D8Lady (6 Oct 2009)

From RTE
[broken link removed]

Looks like its official - he will resign as CC next week (still a TD though).
One down, quite a few to go. 

No doubt will get a hero's welcome down home


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## shanegl (6 Oct 2009)

Of course, nothing to do with the possibility of a general election being called at the weekend.


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## z104 (6 Oct 2009)

It only took a month from the op, Not bad going..


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## D8Lady (6 Oct 2009)

A month? FF had to look up how to do political resignations, its not something they are used to!


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## Rois (6 Oct 2009)

Oh dear, hope he can still afford to pay the bill for all the floodlights that light up his house every night in the hills of south kerry as he looks down on everyone else


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## Caveat (7 Oct 2009)

Contrast the behaviour of this arrogant, pompous gombeen with that of Ian Clement, former advisor to Boris Johnston - he was recently prosecuted, yes, *prosecuted* for misuse of expenses.  He used the corporate CC to pay for lunch for him and his girlfriend on 3 occasions to the total of £156.

Received a 12 month suspended sentence.


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## Pique318 (7 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> Contrast the behaviour of this arrogant, pompous gombeen with that of Ian Clement, former advisor to Boris Johnston - he was recently prosecuted, yes, *prosecuted* for misuse of expenses.  He used the corporate CC to pay for lunch for him and his girlfriend on 3 occasions to the total of £156.
> 
> Received a 12 month suspended sentence.



Jebus !

On that basis, J O'D should expect to be hung, drawn and quartered by Hallowe'en !


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## Shawady (7 Oct 2009)

He must be hard up for money if he had to claim back a £1 charity donation........
http://www.independent.ie/national-...aimed-pound1-donation-to-charity-1905969.html

Ciaran Cuffe mentioned on Morning Ireland that Brian Cowen had asked John Gormley to back JOD but it was not a runner for the green party leader. When he was pressed on this issue by the interviewer he seemed to back track a bit saying he was not sure exactly what was said between the two leaders.
It sounded to me that Cowen wanted to stick by John O Donohoe if at all possible.


----------



## Purple (7 Oct 2009)

I'll give 3:1 odds that he'll get re-elected next time, just like Lowery in Tipp.
The problem is the electorate; the politicians are just a symptom.


----------



## Shawady (7 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> I'll give 3:1 odds that he'll get re-elected next time, just like Lowery in Tipp.
> The problem is the electorate; the politicians are just a symptom.


 
The suggestion on the radio this morning was that as he is not resigning until next week there is an outside chance he will be automatically re-elected if the greens pull out of government this weekend. 
I think it is an unlikely scenerio myself, but what is funny is that Labour who initially called for his resignation are happy enough to wait until next week, yet Fine Gael who have kept quiet on the whole resignation issue now want him to go immediately. As if they want to show some urgencey on the issue now.


----------



## micmclo (7 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> I'll give 3:1 odds that he'll get re-elected next time, just like Lowery in Tipp.
> The problem is the electorate; the politicians are just a symptom.


 
Ah here now, Michael Lowery does good work in Tipp North. Or at least gives the impression that he does! 

Certainly a lot more then our FG backbencher and we had a FF junior minister but she isn't a junior minister anymore

And if you had an effective TD for your area you might well vote for them too. For a lot of people who can get something for their constituency is the most important part of voting for something.
Tipperary North certainly isn't alone in this.

As you say, voters get the politicans they deserve


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## Howitzer (7 Oct 2009)

My bet is that he won't run at the next election. As was mentioned on Vincent Brown last night, he would earn more on his ministerial pension than as a TD following the next election when he won't be able to collect both anymore. He doesn't currently collect a ministerial pension but if he was to go to the backbenches during this administration he would but only for the term of this administration.


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## VOR (7 Oct 2009)

micmclo said:


> For a lot of people who can get something for their constituency is the most important part of voting for something.


 
As minister for Arts, Tourism, Sports & Expenses, O'Donoghue looked after Kerry very well indeed.
Just like McDaid looked after Donegal and Charlie looked after the horses in Kildare.
All politics is local. Any one who ever drove the roads of P Flynn country in Mayo will tell you that.


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## dereko1969 (7 Oct 2009)

The manner of his going doth become him.....

He's decided to chance his arm on the Government collapsing at the weekend to give him a way out, i'm only surprised he didn't try and brazen it out until after the Budget.

While at the beginning of all this, himself and Conor Lenihan were busy blaming civil servants for booking the hotels and flights, no civil servant forced him to spend extravagant funds in VIP lounges, no civil servant forced him to tip his driver €500 which was then claimed back and no civil servant forced him to claim a euro back from Unicef.

The fact that he was allowed by all the parties to employ a political advisor and quadruple the staff of his office which had been sufficient for years shows his imperial ambitions, a thundering disgrace!


----------



## cork (7 Oct 2009)

dereko1969 said:


> While at the beginning of all this, himself and Conor Lenihan were busy blaming civil servants for booking the hotels and flights, no civil servant forced him to spend extravagant funds in VIP lounges, no civil servant forced him to tip his driver €500 which was then claimed back and no civil servant forced him to claim a euro back from Unicef.


 
Was there not a former Labour leader who stayed at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel when staying in New York as Foreign Minister, instead of staying in the then Irish-owned Fitzpatrick Hotel?

The Labour party are being hypocritical on this one.

What statements did Joan Burton or Eamonn Gilmore issue about the Waldorf Astoria?


----------



## Staples (7 Oct 2009)

cork said:


> Was there not a former Labour leader who stayed at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel when staying in New York as Foreign Minister, instead of staying in the then Irish-owned Fitzpatrick Hotel?


 
It's owned by an Irish person which is not quite the same thing.  It's not as though the profits are re-patriated to benefit society here and that it's in the national interest to support it.

BTW, went into Fitzpatricks for a look when I was in New York two years ago.  It was wall-to-wall blarney.  If I was Spring I'd have gone elsewhere too although opting for the Waldorf when someone else is paying is just taking the mick.


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## Purple (7 Oct 2009)

Spring, I heard, used to send the driver down to the airport in Kerry and then fly down in the evening. I have no problem with that as he was (an excellent) minister for foreign affairs and Tánaiste at the time and his time was important.


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## dereko1969 (7 Oct 2009)

cork said:


> Was there not a former Labour leader who stayed at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel when staying in New York as Foreign Minister, instead of staying in the then Irish-owned Fitzpatrick Hotel?
> 
> The Labour party are being hypocritical on this one.
> 
> What statements did Joan Burton or Eamonn Gilmore issue about the Waldorf Astoria?


 
i'm struggling to figure out why you quoted me then went on a ramble about Labour leaders?


----------



## Sunny (7 Oct 2009)

Every party is being hypocritical. However Eamon Gilmore read the public mood and played it well. To see Enda Kenny and FG scamble afterwards to try and take some credit was proof of that. I can't understand how FG and FF continue to misread the public mood. Even today, do we really need Brian Cowan coming out accusing the opposition of jumping on O'Donoghue's grave? You would swear he has been the victim of a great injustice. He is resigning from a post, goes back to being a well paid TD and can look forward to a ministerial pension. Hard to feel sorry for him.
There is nothing to stop O'Donoghue coming out with a Statement explaining his actions. Why does he need a week to prepare one? 
Politicians need to stop hiding behind guidelines and procedures when things like this happen. They are public officials and are accountable to the public, not some closed door commission. I say fair play to Labour and Eamon Gilmore.


----------



## Ceist Beag (7 Oct 2009)

Sunny said:


> Even today, do we really need Brian Cowan coming out accusing the opposition of jumping on O'Donoghue's grave? You would swear he has been the victim of a great injustice.



Absolutely, happens every time with this lot, not only did he not leave with dignity but then he will have his back slapped by all around, even by those who were applying the pressure to remove him in the first place. Follow this with a series of media articles outlining just what a great job he did in the first place and you'd swear we should feel sorry for him. Meanwhile he will swan off on a nice fat pension and never have anything more said about the money he should rightly be asked to pay back. Pathetic.


----------



## Complainer (7 Oct 2009)

cork said:


> Was there not a former Labour leader who stayed at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel when staying in New York as Foreign Minister, instead of staying in the then Irish-owned Fitzpatrick Hotel?
> 
> The Labour party are being hypocritical on this one.
> 
> What statements did Joan Burton or Eamonn Gilmore issue about the Waldorf Astoria?


Fairly poor attempt at diversion here. You can put Dick Spring's record up against Johnny Cash's record any day, and we know who's going to come out best.

Did Dick Spring spend €400 to change terminals at Heathrow? Did Dick Spring get the State to pay for his wife's hat? Did Dick Spring have an unending series of junkets?

And that's before you even mention their relative achievements.


----------



## dewdrop (7 Oct 2009)

In fairness i think the £1 claim was an automatic charge on the bill...who is next?


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## DonDub (7 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> Fairly poor attempt at diversion here. You can put Dick Spring's record up against Johnny Cash's record any day, and we know who's going to come out best.
> 
> Did Dick Spring spend €400 to change terminals at Heathrow? Did Dick Spring get the State to pay for his wife's hat? Did Dick Spring have an unending series of junkets?
> 
> And that's before you even mention their relative achievements.


 

 Its absolutely clear that the Fianna Failers are the prime culprits when it comes to snouts in the trough, and should rightly be booted out of office at the first opportunity. However, it is equally clear the the Fine Gael and Labour have some hidden skeletons when it comes to having their cake, and eating ours. How many FG and Lab TDs could stand over their expenses if they were subject to close scrutiny? Also, over several decades of dodgy land rezonings, I bet a fair few FG heads (and even some sainted Lab folks) took the odd brown envelope.
Interestingly, the Labour lot are publicly wedded to the union movement - financially and ideologically, and have been very quiet about the brothers involvement in the FAS debacle.
I say a curse on all their houses - especially on the F.Failers. I hope that FG can muster enough moral courage to make a break from its play it safe strategy, to take some bold (if painful) steps, starting by leading the way on cleaning up the expenses mess. By doing this they can begin to establish the credibility required to run the country.
Failing this, we could seek to become the 51st state, or a westerly satellite of Sweden..........things could only get better......


----------



## Complainer (7 Oct 2009)

DonDub said:


> Its absolutely clear that the Fianna Failers are the prime culprits when it comes to snouts in the trough, and should rightly be booted out of office at the first opportunity. However, it is equally clear the the Fine Gael and Labour have some hidden skeletons when it comes to having their cake, and eating ours. How many FG and Lab TDs could stand over their expenses if they were subject to close scrutiny? Also, over several decades of dodgy land rezonings, I bet a fair few FG heads (and even some sainted Lab folks) took the odd brown envelope.


Any specifics behind your suspicions?


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## ninsaga (7 Oct 2009)

Well lets resign ourselves to the fact that he rifled the tax payer & he will continue to do so until he draws his last breath. In typical Irish fashion, he'll get a golden handshake & a nice pension. Ah 'tis good to be the king!


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## monascribe18 (8 Oct 2009)

had it been USA he would and should be jailed


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## Pique318 (8 Oct 2009)

Ah shure he's done nothing wrong


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## ninsaga (8 Oct 2009)

Where here are the full details of his [broken link removed]. Thats just criminal - and I don;t care what anyone says about his 'entitlements'!

So that's it for me! I'm not voting Fianna Fail next election as they have failed to implement recommendations on vouched expenses. See here.


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## Ham Slicer (8 Oct 2009)

From the breakingnews story linked by Ninsaga - Reports this morning say Tom O'Higgins submitted a letter of resignation during the summer because of the refusal of politicians to reform their expenses and allowances.

I'd love to know how this refusal was made.  A show of hands, a committe and who exactly refused?

Bloody hell I didn't realise he was getting his CC salary on top of his TD salary.  No wonder he didn't want to go.


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## ninsaga (8 Oct 2009)

As I say, this is just criminal. Any worthwhile leader would have had the balls to stand up & stop all these benefits to begin with. I think this is only the tip of the iceberg though.

These are our represented leaders! We voted for them to run the country - not to get on the gravy train line their own pockets. This damages the credibility of all politicians who have been coining it for so long in my opinion.


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## Sunny (8 Oct 2009)

As Brian Lenihan says we all need to get a bit of 'perspective' about the whole expenses saga. 

What planet do these politicians operate on? They all hire expensive political advisors and yet still come out with statements like this. No-one is claiming that solving the expenses controversary will fix our economic problems but are they really so thick that they don't understand how angry people are and that they won't just lie down and take massive cuts in living standards and public services while this sort of stuff is going on.


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## z107 (8 Oct 2009)

> are they really so thick that they don't understand how angry people are


They don't care how angry people are. All they care about is trousering as much of our money as they can.

When the elections come around, the thick public will vote them in again anyway. FG/FF/labour etc - they're all cut from the same cloth.


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## bamboozle (8 Oct 2009)

monascribe18 said:


> had it been USA he would and should be jailed


 

+1


all us little people do is email/write/phone our local TD's and let them know it is not good enough.
i certainly hope the sunday tribune keep up this and target the expenses of Michael martin next.


----------



## bamboozle (8 Oct 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> They don't care how angry people are. All they care about is trousering as much of our money as they can.
> 
> When the elections come around, the thick public will vote them in again anyway. FG/FF/labour etc - they're all cut from the same cloth.


 

for what its worth, Finian McGrath details his expenses on his website.


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## ninsaga (8 Oct 2009)

whats the link to that site bamboozle?


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## D8Lady (8 Oct 2009)

Sunny said:


> As Brian Lenihan says we all need to get a bit of 'perspective' about the whole expenses saga.
> 
> What planet do these politicians operate on? They all hire expensive political advisors and yet still come out with statements like this. No-one is claiming that solving the expenses controversary will fix our economic problems but are they really so thick that they don't understand how angry people are and that they won't just lie down and take massive cuts in living standards and public services while this sort of stuff is going on.



Hear, hear!

We know that the budget is going to be painful - and the pain should be felt first and severly in FF. It is galling to listen to Lenihan's patronisng comments. 
Solving their attitude to our money IS part of the solution.


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## bamboozle (9 Oct 2009)

ninsaga said:


> whats the link to that site bamboozle?


 
www.*finianmcgrath*.ie
wouldnt be a fan of his but its refreshing to see TD's choosing to publish their expenses, think Leo Veradker does also.


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## lightswitch (9 Oct 2009)

_




_

_Link to TD's expenses over the last 2 years._


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## z104 (9 Oct 2009)

bamboozle said:


> www.*finianmcgrath*.ie
> wouldnt be a fan of his but its refreshing to see TD's choosing to publish their expenses, think Leo Veradker does also.


 

How can he have relatively low expenses to do his job when others need 3 times as much,
I think Willie O Dea has the lowest expense claims in the Dail. Willie has the highest votes of any Politician in the country yet he has the lowest expenses. So why do other TD's have such high expenses?

If you take Willie as an example then it shows that you do not need high expenses to stay elected.

Willie is in the south west and clims 17k per year, John O' Donoghue is in the south west and claims 329k

It is legal theft in my opinion.

Expenses need to be put on the internet for all to see. If they're legitimate then no TD has anything to fear.


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## z104 (9 Oct 2009)

lightswitch said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Looking at this list it's now quiet obvious why FG are keeping relatively quiet.

Ahh Bisto, Choo Choo


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## VOR (9 Oct 2009)

Niallers said:


> Looking at this list it's now quiet obvious why FG are keeping relatively quiet.
> 
> Ahh Bisto, Choo Choo


 
Very true. I think the top 3 are FF, Lab, FG. O'Donoghue, Howlin, Perry.


----------



## Sunny (9 Oct 2009)

This website is also worth a look

http://thestory.ie/2009/09/06/minister-martin-cullen-goes-to-new-york/

This is a link to Martin "I don't do junkets" Cullen but there are others there including a lovely 5 day trip to India by Mary Hanafin that cost €26,000 despite the Indian hosts picking up some of the hotel costs.


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## csirl (9 Oct 2009)

Niallers said:


> How can he have relatively low expenses to do his job when others need 3 times as much,
> I think Willie O Dea has the lowest expense claims in the Dail. Willie has the highest votes of any Politician in the country yet he has the lowest expenses. So why do other TD's have such high expenses?
> 
> If you take Willie as an example then it shows that you do not need high expenses to stay elected.
> ...


 
Ministers, such as Willie O'Dea, always have lower expenses claims than ordinary TDs - they are not in the same expenses regime due to Departments, rather than constituencies, being regarded as a Minister's HQ and because a Minister has access to a lot of resources that are paid for directly by the Department for which they do not need to claim.


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## z104 (9 Oct 2009)

They should be given credit cards to pay for everyting and the credit card statement published monthly.


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## z104 (9 Oct 2009)

csirl said:


> Ministers, such as Willie O'Dea, always have lower expenses claims than ordinary TDs - they are not in the same expenses regime due to Departments, rather than constituencies, being regarded as a Minister's HQ and because a Minister has access to a lot of resources that are paid for directly by the Department for which they do not need to claim.


 
So does this mean that John O' Donoghues expenses are even worse if some were hidden away by the department?

Willie is in the south west and clims 17k per year, John O' Donoghue is in the south west and claims 329k


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## Purple (9 Oct 2009)

As Kevin Myers pointed out today "O'Donoghue didn't kill anyone or bomb any pubs . . . so lighten up on the moral indignation'.
In other words it's deeply hypocritical for the Labour leadership and the Shinners to take the moral high-ground on, well, anything.


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## lightswitch (9 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> As Kevin Myers pointed out today "O'Donoghue didn't kill anyone or bomb any pubs . . . so lighten up on the moral indignation'.
> In other words it's deeply hypocritical for the Labour leadership and the Shinners to take the moral high-ground on, well, anything.


 

Its attitudes like this that feeds the monster and allows our banana republic to carry on corruptly.  This is exactly the way the politicans want you to think.  Its comparing one thing with something totally different.


----------



## Sunny (9 Oct 2009)

What about John Waters who says our outrage is because of self loathing over our excesses during the good times.


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## z107 (9 Oct 2009)

> As Kevin Myers pointed out today "O'Donoghue didn't kill anyone or bomb any pubs . . . so lighten up on the moral indignation'.
> In other words it's deeply hypocritical for the Labour leadership and the Shinners to take the moral high-ground on, well, anything.


There were a fair number killed in the Irish Civil war of 1922-23, including many civilians. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are the direct descendants of the opposing sides of this war.


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## DrMoriarty (13 Oct 2009)

http://vimeo.com/7045341

Warning: may induce nausea, vomiting and/or severe cramps.


> Speaking to the press - "the men and women of the fourth estate" - Mr O'Donoghue added: "It has been the best of times and it has been the worst of times."
> He said he had never taken anything from any man. "I never could, I never would. To do otherwise would be to deny who I am and where I came from.”


What dignity. What magnanimity. What a crock.


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## Butter (13 Oct 2009)

I heard the speech today on the radio.  I just can't believe that this man is so far removed from how people in this country really feel about him and his expenses.  
The politicians in this country have lived the high life for so long that they just don't see the reality of what is facing us.  
John O'Donoghue has a hard neck.  I reckon he went back to Kerry and got told by his supporters that he had done nothing wrong, and wrote that speech feeling very hard done by.


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## z104 (13 Oct 2009)

Kerry man jokes will be deserved if he's voted back in at the next election by the people of South Kerry.


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## Birroc (13 Oct 2009)

Marg said:


> I just can't believe that this man is so far removed from how people in this country really feel about him and his expenses.


 
Not condoning JO'D but I've worked in both public and private sector and misuse/milking of expenses is commonplace. I have seen it all and I'll admit I have done it myself when the occasion arose. In the public service a common one was mileage - I would see guys claiming mileage for 3 separate onsite visits on 3 different days whereas they actually did all 3 visits in one day and one round trip. In the private sector forged taxi receipts was a common one and in the good times extravagance (hotels/meals) was the norm when the customer was paying. Its fraud I know but we Irish, well some of us, are good at cheating the system...root and branch


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## Staples (14 Oct 2009)

Birroc said:


> I would see guys claiming mileage for 3 separate onsite visits on 3 different days whereas they actually did all 3 visits in one day and one round trip. In the private sector forged taxi receipts was a common one


 
Yes. This is fraud and anyone caught deserves to be punished. The it seems to be an intrinsic part of our culture is depressing but this isn't a reasonable defence when cornered.


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## csirl (14 Oct 2009)

I think its very sad that JOD doesnt seem to understand that he's done anything wrong. Talk about being out of touch with reality.


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## Guest116 (14 Oct 2009)

This is a laugh...

A FULL investigation may be launched into revelations that a Galway City Councillor who doesn’t own a car or driving licence claimed more than €4,000 in mileage expenses for driving to conferences.
Cllr Michael Crowe (FF) has demanded that the local authority probes the expenses of Labour’s Cllr Billy Cameron, who claimed mileage for travelling to conferences all over Ireland in 2007 and 2008 despite being unable to drive – reopening a controversy that flared during the local elections in June.
Cllr Cameron did not own a car or driving licence when he claimed the mileage money – he cited a Hyundai car on his expenses’ claim forms. The car was owned by his brother Jerome, who had driven him to the conferences. It later emerged that the car in question did not have an up-to-date road tax disc or a current NCT. 
Cllr Cameron, who topped the poll in the City Central Ward in the local election despite the potentially damaging expenses allegations emerging during the campaign, had claimed €4,028 in total for mileage for conferences. 
When contacted by this newspaper yesterday, Cllr Cameron declined to comment other than to say, “if it comes up in the (Council) Chamber, or any other forum, I will address it”.
In June Cllr Cameron said instead of using public transport, he paid his brother to drive him to the conferences, which he had been told was “totally legal”.


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## Birroc (14 Oct 2009)

Trust me, expense misuse is everywhere - public and private. Public has more scope & scale because nobody monitors it (in the past that is).


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## Purple (14 Oct 2009)

Birroc said:


> Trust me, expense misuse is everywhere - public and private. Public has more scope & scale because nobody monitors it (in the past that is).



We had an audit from Revenue last week. She looked at all expenses. We allow the lowest rate for mileage and have no fixed rate allowances (no fixed amount for overnight stays etc). There is little of no scope for expenses abuse in the private sector. I’m not saying people don’t try it but if they do it will catch up with them.


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## Caveat (14 Oct 2009)

Here's a good one on expenses.

A couple of years ago I visited a (public sector) client.  A bit of initial banter etc - turns out that the biggest gripe for him at that time was that his mileage expenses had been reduced.  His assessment?

I quote: "Now it's down to only X per mile - sure how are you supposed to *make anything* on that?"

As he was a customer I thought it best not to point out that expenses were generally a non-profit making exercise, but he was genuinely annoyed and TBH I couldn't believe he said it with a straight face.


----------



## lightswitch (14 Oct 2009)

A neighbour of mine (public service) always put in mileage claims of between €300 and €500 per month regardless of whether she has used her car or not.

To be honest it doesn't actually bother me at all after all the TD's and Ministers etc have spent.  Would prefer she had it to them.  LS.


----------



## Purple (14 Oct 2009)

lightswitch said:


> A neighbour of mine (public service) always put in mileage claims of between €300 and €500 per month regardless of whether she has used her car or not.
> 
> To be honest it doesn't actually bother me at all after all the TD's and Ministers etc have spent.  Would prefer she had it to them.  LS.



So what you are saying is that you don't mind your neighbour being a thief because other steal more? Charming!


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## Staples (14 Oct 2009)

lightswitch said:


> A neighbour of mine (public service) always put in mileage claims of between €300 and €500 per month regardless of whether she has used her car or not.


 
I don't get the ambivalent attitude towards this practice.  It's not okay just because one might know the individual.  It's FRAUD - punishable by a custodial sentence as well as the loss of one's job.

And I can't believe that anyone would be so stupid as to boast about it to their neighbour.


----------



## Birroc (14 Oct 2009)

Caveat said:


> I quote: "Now it's down to only X per mile - sure how are you supposed to *make anything* on that?"


 
I have ex colleagues (public sector) who were furious when mileage rate was reduced. But as I said, they 'compensated' by putting in for more miles, whether or not they did those miles. They were openly admitting this to be until recently when the whole public v private debate erupted...


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## Complainer (14 Oct 2009)

Birroc said:


> I have ex colleagues (public sector) who were furious when mileage rate was reduced. But as I said, they 'compensated' by putting in for more miles, whether or not they did those miles. They were openly admitting this to be until recently when the whole public v private debate erupted...





lightswitch said:


> A neighbour of mine (public service) always put in mileage claims of between €300 and €500 per month regardless of whether she has used her car or not.



Either there is some parallel universe in existence out there, or somebody is telling stories. It is time to shut up or put up.

If this is happen, report it. To the fraud squad, or your local opposition TD, or Joe Duffy or the C&AG or Shane Ross. Take your pick, but report it at 9am tomorrow giving their names and your name. 

The public sector that I work in bears no relationship to the one that your friends seem to work in.


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## z107 (14 Oct 2009)

Why do people even care any more about such fraud?
When the whole system seems to be corrupt, and now verging on failure? It's like switching the taps of a sink off on board the Titanic, while it's half submerged.

I noticed today that someone called drumm just got another bunch load of money. €70k of our money.

Meanwhile, normal people are probably going to get hammered in the budget. Maybe we should all start bartering instead, and forget about using money.


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## D8Lady (15 Oct 2009)

I had to share this - it's from the Irish beauty blog www.beaut.ie ordinarily concerned with new beauty products, sales deals and swap siopa (look it up!)
But this new fragrance should be known:

"It’s the new fragrance from J.O.D - Expense. Formulated exclusively to bring out his dark side it inventively uses the tagline: For the grasping black caricature of the man that I am
 The very atmosphere of Irish Politics today evoked in its alluring fragrance. Top notes of corruption settle down with lingering traces of greed and leaves a strong scent of entitlement hanging in the air
 It’s what every splutteringly indignant red faced minister will be wearing this season to cope with trial by soundbite.
 Leave your office with your head held high. Do it with Expense.
_Reasonably priced at €100k. Just charge it to the taxpayer."_


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## gebbel (15 Oct 2009)

lightswitch said:


> A neighbour of mine (public service) always put in mileage claims of between €300 and €500 per month regardless of whether she has used her car or not.
> 
> To be honest it doesn't actually bother me at all after all the TD's and Ministers etc have spent. Would prefer she had it to them. LS.


 
The most ridiculous, absurd post I have ever read. Report this individual for christ's sake.


----------



## D8Lady (15 Oct 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Why do people even care any more about such fraud?
> When the whole system seems to be corrupt, and now verging on failure?
> 
> Meanwhile, normal people are probably going to get hammered in the budget.



What is wrong with us that we just accept all of this? The Icelanders banged pots for 8 days and drummed their government out. In the UK, locals held rowdy meetings with their MPs, many of whom will stand down at next election, and will pay back the money they used in expenses.

Here, we call Joe Duffy, Liveline and post late night on AAM...

We should have every drum, bongo, bodhran, lamberg and timpani drum outside the Dail and drum the FFers out.


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## Bronte (15 Oct 2009)

Purple said:


> We had an audit from Revenue last week. She looked at all expenses. We allow the lowest rate for mileage and have no fixed rate allowances (no fixed amount for overnight stays etc). There is little of no scope for expenses abuse in the private sector. I’m not saying people don’t try it but if they do it will catch up with them.


 
They don't catch anyone or very few as they only audit the honest, it's easier.  Those they could have caught are generally long gone.


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## Bronte (15 Oct 2009)

D8Lady said:


> We should have every drum, bongo, bodhran, lamberg and timpani drum outside the Dail and drum the FFers out.


I'll fly over for this march - when will someone organise it - never. All those who voted for FF will do so again as FF are us and they look after their own. Even as they s----w everybody they will be voted in again. No matter that they have brought the country to it's knees they will stay in power. 
When I hear that Beverly Cooper Flynn alone stood up to give O' Donoghue a standing ovation I despair. But she'll be re elected and so will he. 
They are all pigs at the trough. We get what we vote for. Think about that when you're paying for Nama, when no banker or developer goes to jail, while normal people are jailed for miniscule debts, when people are hounded for diddling a few pence from social welfare, and spied upon to see how many times they sleep with their partner, when politicians receive salaries beyond the dreams of many, beyond what the country can afford, when your bank fines you for missing a payment and then slaps another charge just to show you whose boss, when they take your house from you because they should never had loaned you the money in the first place, when you live in an unfinished housing estate in the middle of nowhere, while the planners who have nothing to do refuse to change job, when your child goes to a school where the class size increases and is housed in a prefab with holes and cold and draughts and you have to supply toilet roll and make a contribution from your dwindling salary to pay for the heating, but the teachers refuse to see you outside of school hours so you have to take the afternoon off work unpaid, when the heads of state bodies retire into the sunset on ludicrous pensions and cars and extra payments thrown in for free, when your credit card supplier rings you day and night till you can't sleep with the worry, when your child is on a waiting list for an operation and as each day goes by her condition detoriates, when you have to sell your home to pay for your medical bills in retirement, when the doctor that sees you is paid by the state a salary of stratospheric proportions who will only deign to see you at hours that suit him and does a nice sideline in private patients that miraculously get seen before you, where your car gets damaged by pot holes on the main national route that is not a motorway yet, where your child allowance will decrease along with the pension even as your salary is taxed and levied beyond recognition and woe betide you should you make an innocent mistake on your tax return 20 years ago for the levies and penalties will eat all your savings, meanwhile those that pay no tax will still be living in a mansion and driving a BMW while their girlfriend will have 4 kids and make more money on the dole than working could ever justify and will be renting out the council house kindly supplied by you, a country where if you commit a sexual crime of vilest proportions you won't go to jail but your victim will be treated as a leper and outcast and live a life of shame, where if you report it the state will fight against you and do everything to obstruct you and protect the perpetuators and those that fiddle their tax return will have an amnesty and diddle some more of even that and wait for the next amnesty, but if you had your small savings innocently in an offshore account, kindly suggested to you by the local bank manager, you will pay more than saved in back tax so that you are left with nothing and can't afford to turn on the heating when your bones are cold and old, where if you take a smear test you cannot rely on it and could even die and the man in charge of that gets a bonus of 70K for magnificent performance.
Think about that when next you vote.


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## Teatime (15 Oct 2009)

D8Lady said:


> We should have every drum, bongo, bodhran, lamberg and timpani drum outside the Dail and drum the FFers out.


 
Thats 3 drums. Perhaps include Prof Drumm from HSE too.


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## z104 (15 Oct 2009)

I think Beverly Cooper Flynn should from this day be call Beverly Cheesy Grin.

She really sums up the power hungry thrash that are unfortunetly voted into to the Dail. Shame on certain counties for voting in the obviously dodgy "politicians"


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## Pique318 (15 Oct 2009)

An ex-colleague of mine who now works for the HSE told me recently that it's routine to drive a letter/package 120 miles to the destination, rather than post it.

Obviously, the drive of 240 miles means a nice €150+ profit !!


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## Birroc (15 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> The public sector that I work in bears no relationship to the one that your friends seem to work in.


 
I would say it depends on which dept or council you work in and whether you use your car for work etc.


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## liaconn (15 Oct 2009)

lightswitch said:


> A neighbour of mine (public service) always put in mileage claims of between €300 and €500 per month regardless of whether she has used her car or not.
> 
> To be honest it doesn't actually bother me at all after all the TD's and Ministers etc have spent. Would prefer she had it to them. LS.


 
Sounds extremely odd. You can't just 'put in' a claim. It has to be signed off by someone at senior management level and the purpose of the trip has to be submitted to Finance Unit before they will pay any mileage. Also, each Department has an Internal Audit Unit who I am sure would have spotted something like this.
I'm talking about the Civil Service. I'm not sure if your neighbour works for a semi-state??


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## Complainer (15 Oct 2009)

Pique318 said:


> An ex-colleague of mine who now works for the HSE told me recently that it's routine to drive a letter/package 120 miles to the destination, rather than post it.
> 
> Obviously, the drive of 240 miles means a nice €150+ profit !!


I really don't believe that this happens. But if you believe it is happen, put a stop to it. Report it and get it sorted.




Birroc said:


> I would say it depends on which dept or council you work in and whether you use your car for work etc.


I deal with a lot of agencies, and councils, and depts, and I have never, ever come across any situations like this.

This would need sign off by line manager, head of dept, senior finance manager and 2 x cheque/EFT signatories. This kind of abuse is not happening on a wide scale, if at all.


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## Pique318 (15 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> I really don't believe that this happens. But if you believe it is happen, put a stop to it. Report it and get it sorted.


I couldn't believe it either but he was adamant that it was happening. I don't know the person or dept responsible but I encouraged him to report it too. 

It seems the expenses culture of making a tidy profit is widespread and that we all know of it happening but how is it stopped apart from a severe clampdown on the rules governing it.


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## Sunny (15 Oct 2009)

Mileage was always one of those expenses that was open to abuse in both the public and private sector as it was almost impossible to police.

The whole system stinks and has for years. Imagine being paid almost €140 per day if you live 15.1 miles from your office and you come into work. Anyone within 15 miles gets €61. Doesn't exactly reflect real life does it?


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## Pique318 (15 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> This would need sign off by line manager, head of dept, senior finance manager and 2 x cheque/EFT signatories. This kind of abuse is not happening on a wide scale, if at all.



Regarding my previous post (and not lightswitch's one)
I would hazard a guess that the line manager is a serious problem. If they know that the person is doing the journey, then the trip is signed off. The Head of dept more than likely trusts his direct reports and relies on them to keep expenses in line. The rest of the sign-offs just get the signed approval and pass no remarks.


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## liaconn (15 Oct 2009)

Sunny said:


> The whole system stinks and has for years. Imagine being paid almost €140 per day if you live 15.1 miles from your office and you come into work. Anyone within 15 miles gets €61. Doesn't exactly reflect real life does it?


 
Where is this happening?


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## Sunny (15 Oct 2009)

liaconn said:


> Where is this happening?


 
TD's


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## Birroc (15 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> I deal with a lot of agencies, and councils, and depts, and I have never, ever come across any situations like this.


 
Right so because you didn't see it, it doesn't happen?


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## liaconn (15 Oct 2009)

Sunny said:


> TD's


 
Thanks. I thought we were still talking about the Public Service and was wondering what Agency would sanction that. 
Nothing about TDs would surprise me!


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## Complainer (15 Oct 2009)

Birroc said:


> Right so because you didn't see it, it doesn't happen?


No - because you are not prepared to go 'on record' and get it stopped, it doesn't happen. If you are certain that this is happening, why are you not making it stop?


Pique318 said:


> The Head of dept more than likely trusts his direct reports and relies on them to keep expenses in line. The rest of the sign-offs just get the signed approval and pass no remarks.


That's not how it works in any organisation I've seen. The Head of Dept doesn't sign off blindly - they will have a good understanding of the level of travel being carried out by individuals in their organisation and will be querying unusual claims. Same applies for cheque signatories.



Pique318 said:


> I couldn't believe it either but he was adamant that it was happening. I don't know the person or dept responsible but I encouraged him to report it too.


AH I see - so it wasn't him doing it, but he knows a fella who is doing it. Just like all those taximen know 'de blacks' who get free taxis/free haircuts/free buggies etc?


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## liaconn (15 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> AH I see - so it wasn't him doing it, but he knows a fella who is doing it. Just like all those taximen know 'de blacks' who get free taxis/free haircuts/free buggies etc?


 
Agreed. These vague stories about the Public Service, with no real details included, doing the rounds on these boards is getting a bit tiresome. Everybody has heard these stories from their next door neighbour, or their ex girlfriend or a guy they used to work with who now works in the Public Service yet those of us who _do_ actually work in the PS have never encountered these incidents.
I was thinking of starting a rumour that all Civil Servants get two hours special leave every Friday to do their weekly grocery shop and seeing how long it was before I read it on here as an *actual fact* that someone heard from their cousin's boyfriend who works in the PS and knows *for definite* that it's true.


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## Birroc (15 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> No - because you are not prepared to go 'on record' and get it stopped, it doesn't happen. If you are certain that this is happening, why are you not making it stop?


 
As I already said, I am no longer in public sector although right now I wish I was. And I already said, I also cheated on expenses myself. So you want me to 'talk to Joe' about that?


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## Pique318 (15 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> AH I see - so it wasn't him doing it, but he knows a fella who is doing it. Just like all those taximen know 'de blacks' who get free taxis/free haircuts/free buggies etc?


Yep, that's exactly it. 1st hand information is useless because I didn't see it happen myself! Jeez. Complainer, you would disagree with a dead man.

I believe it to be true. Someone whom I worked closely alongside and knew socially told me this on the next occasion I met them after they had joined the HSE. They were stunned to see how people worked and the rules they played by in the world he moved into.

At least I'm being honest and telling the truth, as I am sure that they were. Denying it with a harrumph and a "that could never happen. I don't believe it. You didn't see it so therefore it's rubbish' is really a quite weak reaction.


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## liaconn (16 Oct 2009)

Pique318 said:


> At least I'm being honest and telling the truth, as I am sure that they were. Denying it with a harrumph and a "that could never happen. I don't believe it. You didn't see it so therefore it's rubbish' is really a quite weak reaction.


 
Pique

Complainer outlined the procedures that are normally in place in the Public Sector to ensure that this kind of thing shouldn't go on. If a small number of individuals are getting around it that is very, very wrong and should be investigated. However, implying that this kind of thing is endemic in the Public Service, on the basis of something someone told you in the pub about their individual area, is very unfair.


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## Complainer (16 Oct 2009)

Pique318 said:


> I believe it to be true. Someone whom I worked closely alongside and knew socially told me this on the next occasion I met them after they had joined the HSE. They were stunned to see how people worked and the rules they played by in the world he moved into.
> 
> At least I'm being honest and telling the truth, as I am sure that they were. Denying it with a harrumph and a "that could never happen. I don't believe it. You didn't see it so therefore it's rubbish' is really a quite weak reaction.


You are of course entitled to believe that it is true, just as you are entitled to believe that the sun went blue and danced around the sky in Knock last week. There is no evidence to support either claim.

Why is it that there is never quite enough detail in these stories to facilitate reporting, but just enough to convince those who want to be convinced?


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## Caveat (16 Oct 2009)

To imply that something cannot happen simply because procedures/codes of practice or whatever do not allow it is to be naive or in denial.

The HSE, local authorities and government depts for example ( like many private sector companies, I should add) have no problem whatsover circumventing 'procedures' when it suits them.  I have been dealing with them every day for a decade.


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## Pique318 (16 Oct 2009)

sticking your fingers in your ears and singing 'la la la' because you don't want to hear something doesn't mean it's not being said.

Denial is the first stage on the path to enlightenment.


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## liaconn (16 Oct 2009)

We're not sticking our fingers in our ears. We're saying that you're using one piece of anecdotal evidence to imply that there are no procedures or safeguards in place and that basically anyone in the Public Service can claim what they want with no questions asked. No doubt there are some lax areas and the people in them should be severely disciplined, but in my Government Department they query everything down to whether or not your hotel cost in Brussels included breakfast as well as a bed for the night (in order that they can knock the cost of a breakfast off your subsistence) before they will pay you any expenses incurred. If you have to get a taxi because you're travelling late at night our Finance Unit rings and queries this before you can recoup the cost (even if your Senior Manager has already cleared it). If we want to order coffee for a meeting you have to confirm that there will be people attending from outside the Department and not just internal staff. The list goes on. It would be very, very difficult to abuse procedures here because they are very strictly applied and it annoys me when I read stories implying that we're all sailing around in taxis, claiming for trips we never took etc etc.


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## Pique318 (16 Oct 2009)

liaconn, I'm not implying anything about the Civil/Public sector at all. You are the one claiming that I am. I am relating information which apparently does not happen in your office/dept, but it IS happening. 
I'm glad to hear about the checks & balances where you work. The problem is that you and Complainer extend your experiences to the entire sector and thereby exclude the possibility of what I say to be true. That's denial and it's exactly like sticking your fingers in your ears. You say it can't be true, I say it not only CAN be true, it IS true.


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## Staples (16 Oct 2009)

Pique318 said:


> You say it can't be true, I say it not only CAN be true, it IS true.


 
That you believe it's true doesn't mean it actually is. That's not to say that it hasn't happened - just that you're relying on second-hand evidence that can't be substantiated. If it can, you (or your friend) should report it. Even if you're only relying on a very strong rumour, you should at least report it to your TD who would only love to follow up on it. 

From my own experience, I can't think of or recall any circumstances where the hand delivery of letters (other than to places within walking distance) was either warranted or justified but if you honestly believe that this practice is commonplace you have a civic duty to follow up on it by all means at your disposable.


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## liaconn (16 Oct 2009)

I never said it wasn't happening. I said using odd bits of anecdotal evidence to make major assumptions about the Public Service was unfair. You did say 'It seems the expenses culture of making a tidy profit is widespread'.

I'm not just getting at you. But so many people come on here with one story they've heard about the Public Service and go on as if this proves something. I hear stories of people in the private sector who steal stock from their bosses, invoice for work they haven't done, fiddle their tax etc but I just see these people as dishonest _individuals_ not 'typical of all private sector workers'.


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## lightswitch (16 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> I really don't believe that this happens. But if you believe it is happen, put a stop to it. Report it and get it sorted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I must say complainer, I am surprised at your surprise.  Expenses abuse is common place both in the public and private sector.  Have you read the title of the thread and I take it you know why people were calling for his resignaiton?  Are you familar with the FAS situation?  Do you not believe any of this to be true?

Haven't time to respond to those who believe I should complain about my neighbour except to say there are far bigger fish to fry.


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## csirl (16 Oct 2009)

Having worked in both sectors, I have seen expenses abuse in both.

Several years ago, while working in the public sector, I remember going to a conference abroad where everything was included in the conference costs i.e. food, accommodation etc. and where the flights were booked and paid for in advance. I never submitted a claim as I didnt incurr any extra expenditure, but I remember a number of colleagues did. 

But I would have to say that its more systemic in the private sector & you see it all the time. This is mainly because there are limits to claim amounts in the PS, so even if someone makes up a claim, there is only so much they can get back. Private sector companies tend to use straight pass thru - will pay whatever costs they believe were incurred without recourse to limits. Not the same in every company - many do have good controls, but many are lax.

Private sector companies also put a lot into corporate entertainment - when I first came across it after having working for a while in the public sector, I was surprised. At executive level, people routinely expect what I would consider to be their personal entertainment to be paid by the company - and companies have no problem doing this and are aware - employees are not breaking rules. Parties, dinners routinely paid for. Always stay in most expensive hotels. Clients wined and dined etc. etc. 

Another reason is that company credit cards are common in the private sector and almost non-existant in the public sector (except for Ministers, CEOs etc.). I dont know how many times I've been out for purely social dinner with a group of people and when it comes to paying, someone produces a company credit card and makes a joke about their company picking up the tab. Even more systemic with self employed people or small business owners - "I'll write it off as a business expense" seems to be their mantra - I dont think they genuinely pay for anything themselves.


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## Birroc (16 Oct 2009)

Yes expense abuse happens in both private & public and we Irish are good at it.

One last example Complainer will love.

Govt dept employee, friend of mine - his primary duty is to answer a 'hotline' for members of the public and deal with the query. Problem is that the phone very rarely rings (average twice a month). Not my friend's fault. So what does he do? Fair play to him, he set up his own business/company and ran it from his office. Spent 2 years running his own business from within his public sector job. Then he left and concentrated solely on the new business. Better than sitting there bored reading the paper which others would do.


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## Deiseblue (16 Oct 2009)

Birroc said:


> Yes expense abuse happens in both private & public and we Irish are good at it.
> 
> One last example Complainer will love.
> 
> Govt dept employee, friend of mine - his primary duty is to answer a 'hotline' for members of the public and deal with the query. Problem is that the phone very rarely rings (average twice a month). Not my friend's fault. So what does he do? Fair play to him, he set up his own business/company and ran it from his office. Spent 2 years running his own business from within his public sector job. Then he left and concentrated solely on the new business. Better than sitting there bored reading the paper which others would do.


Can happen anywhere , I knew 2 guys in the Bank one of whom was persona non grata but they could'nt fire him , he turned up for work every day and ran his antique business from his desk for years until they paid him off !
The other chap ran a bookies from from the branch - you probably remember the court case !!


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## Complainer (17 Oct 2009)

Birroc said:


> One last example Complainer will love.
> 
> Govt dept employee, friend of mine - his primary duty is to answer a 'hotline' for members of the public and deal with the query. Problem is that the phone very rarely rings (average twice a month). Not my friend's fault. So what does he do? Fair play to him, he set up his own business/company and ran it from his office. Spent 2 years running his own business from within his public sector job. Then he left and concentrated solely on the new business. Better than sitting there bored reading the paper which others would do.


Actually, that's a lot more believable than the expense fraud stories. I do believe that these kind of things have happened in the past, and even the not so distant past. There were people 'white-walled' (left staring at the wall) as a result of decentralisation. 

The 'mileage to deliver a letter' story sounds like one of those urban myths. I'm sure that once, somebody did get some mileage to deliver one letter, and maybe there was a good reason for it being delivered by hand. But this kind of stuff is just not happening on a systemic basis today.


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## lightswitch (17 Oct 2009)

Complainer said:


> Actually, that's a lot more believable than the expense fraud stories. I do believe that these kind of things have happened in the past, and even the not so distant past. There were people 'white-walled' (left staring at the wall) as a result of decentralisation.
> 
> The 'mileage to deliver a letter' story sounds like one of those urban myths. I'm sure that once, somebody did get some mileage to deliver one letter, and maybe there was a good reason for it being delivered by hand. But this kind of stuff is just not happening on a systemic basis today.


 

It doesn't matter to me at all whether or not you believe what has been posted here.  I can only speak with regard to my own post which I know to be true.  I could also go through many stories worse than the Mileage to deliver letter story but not without leaving a trail that might identify people.  So I guess I for one will be leaving you with your denial, your probably better off that way


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## Birroc (17 Oct 2009)

The most wasteful practices I have ever seen were in county councils. Especially in the road maintenance works. I've seen things that were so wasteful and inefficient, you would not believe it. All those jobs should be outsourced to private contractors for half the cost and a quarter of the time.


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## Complainer (17 Oct 2009)

lightswitch said:


> It doesn't matter to me at all whether or not you believe what has been posted here.  I can only speak with regard to my own post which I know to be true.


If you know it to be true, why are you not reporting it (and your other 'worse' stories) to the relevant authorities?


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## liaconn (18 Oct 2009)

I agree. Coming on here alluding to all sorts of carry on in the Public Service but saying you can't give us any information and you haven't seen it directly yourself but anyone who's dubious about what you're telling us is just in denial. ..... Please!!

Of course there's some dishonest individuals in the PS as there are everywhere, but hinting that it's rife is very unfair.


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## Birroc (18 Oct 2009)

Liaconn, Complainer, out of curiousity, where in public sector do you work?


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## liaconn (19 Oct 2009)

I work in the Civil Service.


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## Birroc (20 Oct 2009)

liaconn said:


> I work in the Civil Service.


 
 Information overload liaconn!!! - and you wanted all the juicy details from me!


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## liaconn (20 Oct 2009)

Birroc said:


> Information overload liaconn!!! - and you wanted all the juicy details from me!


 
Don't be stupid. What exactly is your point?

I'm hardly going to tell you the exact Department I work in and risk people being able to identify me on here. What earthly difference does it make which exact Department I'm in? There's no comparison between you making vague allegations about the entire Public Service, on third party evidence and then saying you can't supply details and me telling you what area of the Public Service I work in but not the exact location which has nothing whatsover to do with the arguments I'm making.


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## Birroc (20 Oct 2009)

liaconn said:


> Don't be stupid. What exactly is your point?
> 
> I'm hardly going to tell you the exact Department I work in and risk people being able to identify me on here. What earthly difference does it make which exact Department I'm in? There's no comparison between you making vague allegations about the entire Public Service, on third party evidence and then saying you can't supply details and me telling you what area of the Public Service I work in but not the exact location which has nothing whatsover to do with the arguments I'm making.


 
You obviously haven't read my posts. I was in the public service and I was stupid enough to leave. Its not third party evidence and you did look for detail. Anyway, this is my last post on this thread.


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## liaconn (20 Oct 2009)

Apologies. Should have said 'posters making vague allegations'.

I still have absolutely no idea of what point you're trying to make re what Department I work in????


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