# Leaving passport applications until last minute



## Romulan (24 Mar 2010)

How many of the people queing for passports have left it to the last minute for no good reason?

I know many other countries will not entertain "emergency" applications that are clearly nothing of the sort.

You won't hear anyone on Liveline saying that they booked the holiday 6 months ago but never bothered to check their passport.

Now its someone else's fault.


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## Caveat (24 Mar 2010)

Romulan said:


> Now its someone else's fault.


 
It is. Employees of the passport office and their union. 

Look, of course it's foolish leaving it to the last minute but that's their business.  There will always be people like this.  

That the majority of these people are not getting satisfaction simply *is* the fault of the office. In less unusual times these people would have been provided with service and now many of them are not. 
No spokesperson or employee can pontificate or take the sensible high ground on this - it's none of their business.


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## Sunny (24 Mar 2010)

Especially when they offer a service called passport express where you are supposed to get your passport within 10 days.


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## sam h (24 Mar 2010)

But most of these people did not leave it to the last minute - they applied by Passport express and so expected it back within 10 working days.  They'd probably wan tto leave a few extra days to allow for a prblem with photos etc.

My passport (& the kids) expired last August, but I wasn't flying anywhere so I left it until the new year.  The main reason I left it was that I didn't want all the passports to be expiring mid summer & have some concern down the road.  

Had an inkling I might be going somewhere at the start of March, so applied at the start of Feb - luckily I got in before the rush & WTR (not that I needed it as it happened!!), but it still took 13/14 working days for them to come back.  Some people have now been waiting since mid Feb (about 25 working days)

There is also situations where people are using their passports & have to apply in a tight time frame between returning from one trip & going on another.  (luckily they are now allowing people to apply & just submit a copy of their current passport).

Also there were people who did not expect to be going anywhere (there was some young fella got a place on some Irish team, but had to fly out this week - no joy).  There are the real "last minute" applicants

I would say the number of real "last minute" applicant is on the low side - most are people who did not anticipate that the 10 working day turnaround would spin out so far.


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## huskerdu (24 Mar 2010)

I agree that I have no sympathy with people needing an passport in the hurry because they didn;t bother to check if their passport was out of date, but as has been said before, many people applied for passport express and are waiting a lot more than 10 days.


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## carpedeum (24 Mar 2010)

We are seeing the worst of people in their behaviour too. Look at this chancer who applied for a passport on 11th March for his brother's wedding! Not exactly an emergency or life threathening! His relatives are currently mouthing off on the PK Show!  

From the RTE.IE news site:

"A 34-year-old Co Wicklow man has chained himself to internal doors in the Passport Office in Dublin.
Colin Gillick said he starting queuing at 10.30pm last night hoping to get his passport to travel to Thailand next Monday morning.
He applied for the passport on the 11 March and was told this morning it had not yet been processed."


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## shnaek (24 Mar 2010)

huskerdu said:


> I agree that I have no sympathy with people needing an passport in the hurry because they didn;t bother to check if their passport was out of date, but as has been said before, many people applied for passport express and are waiting a lot more than 10 days.



What about someone who was told a couple days in advance that they must travel abroad for business?

Either way, we shouldn't be making excuses for people who aren't doing their job. We should only accept the best.


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## Staples (24 Mar 2010)

I have it on reasonably good authority that the problems in the passport office are to do with the suden rush of people who think that if they don't act now, they've no chance. Their actions are equivalent to a "run" on a bank that people fear is going out of business and taking their money with them.

What hasn't been made clear in the media is that the only service being withdrawn is the counter service. If people apply (or have applied) for their passports in the normal way, they will still be issued (perhaps a little later than might otherwise have been the case).

While people might be justified in worrying that they won't receive their passport in good time, it's the sudden and panic-driven rush on the office that's causing difficulties for those who may genuinely need last minute assistance.


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## Staples (24 Mar 2010)

shnaek said:


> What about someone who was told a couple days in advance that they must travel abroad for business?


 
Why should a lack of reasonable foresight on the part of an individual become the responsibilty of the passport office to resolve?


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## Caveat (24 Mar 2010)

Staples said:


> What hasn't been made clear in the media is that the only service being withdrawn is the counter service. If people apply (or have applied) for their passports in the normal way, they will still be issued (perhaps a little later than might otherwise have been the case).


 
Yes, I agree that this is not always clear. 

However this may be irrelevant soon if an all out strike goes ahead.



> Why should a lack of reasonable foresight on the part of an individual become the responsibilty of the passport office to resolve?


 
Are you a politician? 

Nobody is expecting the office to assume responsibility - just to do their jobs in the manner to which the public have become accustomed.


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## dodo (24 Mar 2010)

Most people order new passport  in plenty of time ,even so if they leave it with 3 weeks to expire then that is also fine as the quick express option allows for that,and if those useless people had been doing their job they get paid to much for it the first place then this would not be on liveline,  
The fault is not with people leaving till late it is with the worker in the pass port department,
those civil service worker had no idea of the real world never had to do an honest days work in their lives,  most work about 36  hrs and week take away their breaks then they work less than 30 hours,  over paid great pension sick as long as you want,
any one says anything to upset them and the union is called in, My wife is a civil servant so I know what I am talking about, she was told to take sicks and when she refused saying she was not actually sick they could not believe why she would not go sick, think about the that madness for a minute,  she there over 12 yrs and sick once most however have missed at least 10 days a year, they are extra holidays to them, on top of that holidays is around 28-32 days a year, think about the madness for a minute


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## shnaek (25 Mar 2010)

Staples said:


> Why should a lack of reasonable foresight on the part of an individual become the responsibilty of the passport office to resolve?



Clearly you've never worked in a company which does business with foreign entities.

As for responsibilty in the passport office - is it not their responsibility to do their job to the best of their ability? Nobody is asking for wizardry here - just for people to do their job.


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## tiger (25 Mar 2010)

Change of topic slightly, but I do think there is a bit of a "bank run" mentatlity at the moment.
My passport expires in Oct.  While I have no travel plans I do want a valid passport.  For some countries you need at least 6mths left so I was thinking about changing it.  Now I'm not sure; do I send it off into a "passport express blackhole" and risk being without a passport for a couple of months, or do I wait for a couple of months for this & the backlog to clear, and hope no unexpected travel comes up...


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## Staples (25 Mar 2010)

shnaek said:


> Clearly you've never worked in a company which does business with foreign entities.


 
If I did, I'd take extra care to ensure my passport was up to date without the requirement to make an 11th hour run to Molesworth Street.


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## RonanC (25 Mar 2010)

dodo said:


> Most people order new passport in plenty of time ,even so if they leave it with 3 weeks to expire then that is also fine as the quick express option allows for that,and if those useless people had been doing their job they get paid to much for it the first place then this would not be on liveline,
> The fault is not with people leaving till late it is with the worker in the pass port department,
> those civil service worker had no idea of the real world never had to do an honest days work in their lives, most work about 36 hrs and week take away their breaks then they work less than 30 hours, over paid great pension sick as long as you want,
> any one says anything to upset them and the union is called in, My wife is a civil servant so I know what I am talking about, she was told to take sicks and when she refused saying she was not actually sick they could not believe why she would not go sick, think about the that madness for a minute, she there over 12 yrs and sick once most however have missed at least 10 days a year, they are extra holidays to them, on top of that holidays is around 28-32 days a year, think about the madness for a minute


 
Pure and utter rubbish


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## Staples (25 Mar 2010)

Caveat said:


> Nobody is expecting the office to assume responsibility - just to do their jobs in the manner to which the public have become accustomed.


 
This is at the hub of it.  The public, perhaps unreasonably, have become accustomed to a service that accomodates last minute applications and people therefore don't see a necessity to take personal responsibility for their own affairs.  That this accommodation, which in my opinion has always been unreasonably relied upon, has now been effectively challenged is what people are up in arms about.

The actions taken by the CPSU staff are no differnt from those taken by their counterparts in other government departments.  There's no rationale for docking passport office workers' pay without doing the same for all departments and if that happens, it's a declaration of war.


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## Caveat (25 Mar 2010)

But c'mon - this is Ireland not Germany or Japan. Many, many things are done in this manner. Nods, winks, accepted behaviour/attitudes etc - everything from doctors waiving certain charges to friends of friends putting a word in so that your phone gets connected more expediently etc etc

Are you telling me that most of the posters on this site and staff at the passport office don't regularly avail of services (be they private or public) in this country that operate in an unconventional manner?


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## Staples (25 Mar 2010)

Caveat said:


> But c'mon - this is Ireland not Germany or Japan. Many, many things are done in this manner. Nods, winks, accepted behaviour/attitudes etc - everything from doctors waiving certain charges to friends of friends putting a word in so that your phone gets connected more expediently etc etc
> 
> Are you telling me that most of the posters on this site and staff at the passport office don't regularly avail of services (be they private or public) in this country that operate in an unconventional manner?


 
Perhaps they do.  My point is that the Passport Office provided a fairly high standard of service relative to that which might have reasonably expected.  That it's now being stepped back is discomforting for many but it doesn't necessarily mean they're not providing a (still) reasonable of service. As I mentioned earlier, demand has peaked out of panic and this is making a bad situation worse.


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## Phibbleberry (25 Mar 2010)

tiger said:


> Now I'm not sure; do I send it off into a "passport express blackhole" and risk being without a passport for a couple of months, or do I wait for a couple of months for this & the backlog to clear, and hope no unexpected travel comes up...


 

Hi Tiger, 

Apparently if you send in a photocopy of the required page of your passport, this will suffice. It means that you can keep your passport, should you need it, but also have a renewal on order.  I'd probably wait until the panic dies down, but at least when it does, you don't send off your current passport when you don't need to.  I'd imagine there'll be a backlog for quite a few months beyond the industrial action, with anyone who has less than twelve mths left on their passport applying early 'just in case'.

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=253 

I heard a passport representitive mention this on the radio last night, but haven't checked the website myself.

HTH


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## DB74 (25 Mar 2010)

If a service is offered (ie express passport etc etc) then it is wrong to blame people who want to use the service, irrespective of their reasons for doing so and/or their reasons for leaving it so late.


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## Sunny (25 Mar 2010)

Staples said:


> Perhaps they do. My point is that the Passport Office provided a fairly high standard of service relative to that which might have reasonably expected. That it's now being stepped back is discomforting for many but it doesn't necessarily mean they're not providing a (still) reasonable of service. As I mentioned earlier, demand has peaked out of panic and this is making a bad situation worse.


 
They charge for passport express where you are supposed to have your passport within 10 working days. They weren't doing it from the goodness of their heart. They are not providing the service that they promised. 

You speak like we should applaud them for providing a 'fairly high standard of service' to their customers.


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## RonanC (25 Mar 2010)

Sunny said:


> They charge for passport express where you are supposed to have your passport within 10 working days. They weren't doing it from the goodness of their heart. They are not providing the service that they promised.
> 
> You speak like we should applaud them for providing a 'fairly high standard of service' to their customers.


 
from www.dfa.ie



> The 10 day guarantee for receipt of applications submitted through the Passport Express service provided by An Post and the Royal Mail is *suspended until further notice*


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## Sunny (25 Mar 2010)

RonanC said:


> from www.dfa.ie


 
So? Now people know that but they weren't honouring the 10 day turnaround before the suspension.


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## Howitzer (25 Mar 2010)

tiger said:


> Change of topic slightly, but I do think there is a bit of a "bank run" mentatlity at the moment.


It's just like the water shortage during the snow. As soon as it was announced that there might be a shortage you had oul wons filling their bath tubs and instantly crippling the system.

As a nation we really do have a massive herd mentality.

I look forward to the day when it's announced that the women of Ireland are running out of unattractive nerds, then, POW, they'll be all over me.


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## RonanC (25 Mar 2010)

Sunny said:


> They are not providing the service that they promised.


 
Because the service has been suspended as per my last post.

If you have an issue with the turnaround time, foward your issue to Joe Nugent, Head of the Passport Office - He and his colleagues in the DFA promised this service, not the clerical officers at the counters.


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## shnaek (25 Mar 2010)

Staples said:


> If I did, I'd take extra care to ensure my passport was up to date without the requirement to make an 11th hour run to Molesworth Street.



It is this attitude that shows you haven't worked for such a company, because companies can, at the drop of a hat, require that you go abroad for a time. This would never happen in the public service, but it does happen in the private. Literally, the drop of a hat. You could be in in the morning, and suddenly be requested to go abroad in a day or two, even though you may never have worked abroad for the company before. This is the nature of flexibility, something certain sectors of society are unfamiliar with  And as a small open economy, flexibility is something we need.


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## Sunny (25 Mar 2010)

RonanC said:


> If you have an issue with the turnaround time, foward your issue to Joe Nugent, Head of the Passport Office - He and his colleagues in the DFA promised this service, not the clerical officers at the counters.


 
Ha ha

I must go into my boss today and say 'you promised the customer that we would have it done, I didn't so it's your problem'...


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## Caveat (25 Mar 2010)

RonanC said:


> Because the service has been suspended as per my last post.


 
Can you be specific? Do you mean the 10 day turnaround guarantee has been suspended (which has been the case for a while now) or that the service itself, passport express, has been suspended? because 2 people have actually told me this, that the entire service is suspended. 

I don't trust web announcements as they are rarely up to date.


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## RonanC (25 Mar 2010)

Sunny said:


> Ha ha
> 
> I must go into my boss today and say 'you promised the customer that we would have it done, I didn't so it's your problem'...


 
It is his problem if the system put in place by management is not working. If printers are broken and not replaced, if the building has been flooded and staff are asked to work around builders, if An Post themselves cannot deliver post ontime. You cannot put the blame on someone who is working on a public counter, in lets be honest here, a very stressful environment.

But typical, blame the lazy civil servnants on the counter for taking their lunch break, or taking a days annual leave or god fobid being out sick.


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## Sunny (25 Mar 2010)

RonanC said:


> But typical, blame the lazy civil servnants on the counter for taking their lunch break, or taking a days annual leave or god fobid being out sick.



And that is typical public sector trade union hysteria...Who is blaming them for any of those things?

Why are they blocking the employment of 50 temporary staff to deal with normal seasonal demand?


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## thedaras (25 Mar 2010)

Staples said:


> Why should a lack of reasonable foresight on the part of an individual become the responsibilty of the passport office to resolve?



It is incredible,this attitude.
Lack of reasonable foresight??

Where does in say I must have a passport,an up to date one at all times just in case?

Quote from the passport express website;

How does it work?
*Call into any one of our automated post offices and complete your application which we will deliver to the passport office for priority handling. Within 10 working days your new passport will be sent to you.
*

Since when where the employees given the power to say we must leave a certain amount of time to apply for a ten day passport?

Are you telling us that it is a condition of travel and/or it is a condition of applying for a passport that we must take into account the fact that the employees may at anytime go on a WTR and/or on strike?

Are you forgetting that this is a service supposed to be provided by the passport office? Including late applications?

Should we rename the passport office,to ;

Passport  for those only who apply way in advance,know when they will travel, haven't lost, had stolen, going on business urgently, booking a holiday when a bargain or a present may arise,and when we tell you when you should apply office?

It is not up to the employees there to say when we must apply for a passport,get on with the job you are supposed to be doing ,rather than blaming those who require a passport which is your job.

*If everyone had an up to date passport for the next ten ,twenty years, then there would be no jobs at the passport office!!*


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## RonanC (25 Mar 2010)

Caveat said:


> Can you be specific? Do you mean the 10 day turnaround guarantee has been suspended (which has been the case for a while now) or that the service itself, passport express, has been suspended? because 2 people have actually told me this, that the entire service is suspended.
> 
> I don't trust web announcements as they are rarely up to date.


 
Caveat, 

I think my post is quiet clear, 

The 10 Day Guarantee has been suspended. Passport express is still in operation and I have it on good authority that it is currently taking about 15-20 days to process an application received through this system.


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## RonanC (25 Mar 2010)

Sunny said:


> Who is blaming them for any of those things?



Read post 11 and countless others on this website


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## Caveat (25 Mar 2010)

RonanC said:


> Passport express is still in operation and I have it on good authority that it is currently taking about 15-20 days to process an application received through this system.


 
Thanks - good to know that you appear to have insider knowledge.

No offense, but simply quoting whatever they put up on the website doesn't particularly assure me.


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## RonanC (25 Mar 2010)

Caveat said:


> Thanks - good to know that you appear to have insider knowledge.
> 
> No offense, but simply quoting whatever they put up on the website doesn't particularly assure me.


 
Im honestly not quoting any website on that time frame. And those updates posted on the DFA and passport.ie websites are generally put up by senior management or with authorisation from senior management.


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## Caveat (25 Mar 2010)

Howitzer said:


> As a nation we really do have a massive herd mentality.
> 
> I look forward to the day when it's announced that the women of Ireland are running out of unattractive nerds, then, POW, they'll be all over me.


 
Lol


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## thedaras (25 Mar 2010)

Howitzer said:


> It's just like the water shortage during the snow. As soon as it was announced that there might be a shortage *you had oul wons filling their bath tubs and instantly crippling the system.*
> 
> As a nation we really do have a massive herd mentality.
> 
> I look forward to the day when it's announced that the women of Ireland are running out of unattractive nerds, then, POW, they'll be all over me.



Who are the "oul wons" you speak of?

Would they be Mothers who have young babies who maybe NEED to have water?

Where did you get the stats from that it was" oul wons" filling their bath tubs they caused a crippling of the system?

Perhaps some Fathers ( not oul fellas) may have done the same thing? or was it just the women or "oul wons" as you like to call them.


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## Howitzer (25 Mar 2010)

It's a Shooting the Breeze thread so I'm sticking with my assertion. Lighten up.


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## shnaek (25 Mar 2010)

A good piece on this in the indo:

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/c...-they-got-us-into-join-the-queue-2110680.html


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## Staples (25 Mar 2010)

thedaras said:


> It is incredible,this attitude.
> Lack of reasonable foresight??
> 
> Where does in say I must have a passport,an up to date one at all times just in case?


 
Whether you want to have an up-to-date passport "just in case" is clearly your own business. However, if you choose not to, it's unreasonable to assume that State services primary function should be to respond as necessary to your last minute panic. In my earlier posts, I was referring to people who look for a last minute accommodation and not those who may have applied in good faith through the post, allocating the required time.



shnaek said:


> It is this attitude that shows you haven't worked for such a company, because companies can, at the drop of a hat, require that you go abroad for a time.


 
My earlier response refers. If you work for one such company, why not just make sure you have a passport?



shnaek said:


> This would never happen in the public service, but it does happen in the private. Literally, the drop of a hat. You could be in in the morning, and suddenly be requested to go abroad in a day or two, even though you may never have worked abroad for the company before.


 
Notwithstanding the challenge to the laws of physics presented by the two-day drop of a hat, there is often a requirement in the public service to travel at short notice. For the same reasons, those for whom this may be a possibility take it upon themselves to have a valid passport. 



shnaek said:


> This is the nature of flexibility, something certain sectors of society are unfamiliar with  And as a small open economy, flexibility is something we need.


 
No, this the consequence of poor planning on the part of the individual who didn't consider it necessary to have a passport.


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## DB74 (25 Mar 2010)

Staples said:


> Whether you want to have an up-to-date passport "just in case" is clearly your own business. However, if you choose not to, it's unreasonable to assume that State services primary fucntion is to your respond as necessary to you last minute panic.


 
It's not unreasonable to expect a particular service if the State actually offer this service.


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## Staples (25 Mar 2010)

DB74 said:


> It's not unreasonable to expect a particular service if the State actually offer this service.


 
This is the point.  They don't "offer" a 24 hour or even two-day turnaround service but they have always done their best to respond to last minutes "emergencies" as required.

That people may have since come to regard this as something of an entitlement is the reason for the current queues.


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## thedaras (25 Mar 2010)

Firstly why is this thread on shooting the breeze?

No where does it say that passports are at the compliment of those who issue them.

That includes  emergency ones.

This is  a right to each and every citizen, and you are very wrong to say we have come to regard this as an entitlement,IT IS AN ENTITLEMENT!

Unless you tell me that it is not part of the passport offices remit to supply emergency passports?

The logical conclusion to draw from your post above is to say that every one of the hundreds of people on the queues for the past week all want emergency passports.

Here is a piece taken from the DFA website;

Public Counter Urgent Fee

*Payable, upon proof of urgent travel, for passports required to be issued on the same or next day following application.  This fee is in addition to the appropriate passport fee as set out above.

Please note that this is not an 'on demand' service and is only available for same/next day genuine urgent travel*

€55 -Adult

€30 -Child

Out of Hours Emergency Service Administration Fee

This is for the issue of a temporary passport of limited validity by the Department's out of hours emergency service. 

Subsequently a fresh application must be made for a regular passport along with payment of the appropriate fee as set out.".

It looks to me like ,we can in fact be issued and in fact are entitled to an emergency service if required and not at the whim of the employees of the passport office.

Therefore :
It's not unreasonable to expect a particular service if the State actually offer this service,whether that be an emergency passport or a passport within ten days or one month.

I detect so much resentment towards the public who avail of the service of any of the above that its almost palpable.It is the same in many areas of the public service .

Of course it must be said that the ones who are resentful and militant and jobsworths are the ones who cause the PS to get such a bad name and spoil the atmosphere for the others who have to work among them.

I know this as I was that soldier.

The bully boy tactics employed by the militants among us, frustrate and halt any initiative by the great workers in the PS.

I hope their time is now up and those who want to do a decent days work without this hassle will be the ones who remain.


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## thedaras (25 Mar 2010)

Staples; It is a great pity that you dont apply the same logic to customers of the passport office!


 You responded to :Re: Do banks actutally WANT to lend money these days?


"What would I do? They're retail banks for God's sake! It's their core business. Have they learned nothing from the last few years in terms of the value of protecting their longer term viability and reputation for the sake of short-term opportunism. Do they feel any responsibility or obligation to meet their core customers' needs? For my part, I'm closing my UB accounts and will source future funding elsewhere (I'm not daft enough though to give up my tracker mortgage).


Then why can't they just say so without leading customers on like fools? Perhaps it's because they haven't the guts to say so straight out and that they'd rather the application died of exhaustion before a decision was actually required. What a bunch of spineless, mealy-mouthed muppets."[/QUOTE]

If you change the word Bank to passport office you may get the picture!

The only problem is,we the customers have no choice in where we get our passports,for now anyway...


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## Staples (25 Mar 2010)

Of course everyone is entitled to a passport, but they're not entitled to one on demand.

As you've alluded to, there are certain circumstances in which emergency passports may be issued and I note that the passport office is now applying an additional charge for any such circumstance (presumably to reduce the incidence). 

As has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum, postal applications are still being processed within about four working weeks. 

As for my comments on the retail banks, I'm not sure the two situations are analagous. At least the passport office will _eventually_ process your application. The experience with banks and loan applications is a lot more open-ended.


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## thedaras (25 Mar 2010)

So is the consistent threats from the unions and workers of go slows and strikes.

I don't see and have never seen anyone going in to the passport office and looking for a passport on demand!


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## thedaras (26 Mar 2010)

See what I mean, confrontational , aggressive and bullying behavior.

Notice the word " I" in my post..


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## Ron Burgundy (26 Mar 2010)

thedaras said:


> So is the consistent threats from the unions and workers of go slows and strikes.
> 
> *I don't see and have never seen anyone going in to the passport office and looking for a passport on demand*!


 
Provide back up for this statement................


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## DB74 (26 Mar 2010)

Where's the rest of this thread?

Somebody has been out with the scissors methinks!


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## thedaras (26 Mar 2010)

Ron Burgundy said:


> Provide back up for this statement................


 
Once again,* I* ,thats *"I"* ,as in* ME* as in *,I* have never seen  anyone,going into the passport office and demanding a passport on the spot!

*I* ,that would be *ME*, would  have been to the office on many occasions and *I* have never seen it happening.

What part of this do you not understand?


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## dodo (26 Mar 2010)

No it is not, they are spoiled and dont know what the real world is about, they make  me sick they really do and if you choose to be different ie do your work then you stand out and side benched, fact


RonanC said:


> Pure and utter rubbish


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## Complainer (27 Mar 2010)

shnaek said:


> A good piece on this in the indo:


Contradiction?


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