# wood pellet central heating



## thespecialon (28 Aug 2007)

Hi all,
after reading through some of the previous posts i am still undecided on the above.building a 2500sq foot house and installing central heating - radiators in every room. 


my options as far as i know are between wood bellet boiler + oil boiler?

anyone got any feedback on the wood bellet boiler - like ease of getting pellets now?also utility room is fairly small so anyone know what size wood pellet boilder would need to be for 2500 sq feet?

also any feedback on running costs versus oil welcome?
Thanks T


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## Skippy1 (29 Aug 2007)

Looked into the same option myself but didn't run with it as need a fair amount of pellet storage space (min delivery 1 tonne) to make it worthwhile, which I didn't have.  Would have went with it if had room for bulk storage as think running costs work out around half that of oil. Installation costs come to around 10k. The SEI Greener Homes grant covers €4,200 of this. Typical footprint required is 2m X 1.5m. They radiate some heat into the rooms they're located in so would probably need another sytem in the warmer months for heating water only, perhaps solar.


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## Duffman (29 Aug 2007)

Seeing as you are building a house could you allow for the extra space needed?  The previous poster is spot on in terms of space needed & grant etc.  I built this year and installed a wood pellet boiler but built an separate extra large garage to take the boiler & 3.5 tonne storage unit.  Only moved in in March so can't confirm how much cheaper than oil it is yet - I'll have a better idea after a full winter.  The official line is that its about 60% of the cost of oil & so far that looks about right.  I can say though that when it has been running it has been very efficient.

Regarding availability - I've only ordered once so far from Balcas.  They gave me a lead time of three weeks but delivered in less than 2 weeks.  As long as you time it right it shouldn't be a problem.  I believe there will be more suppliers soon in any case.


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## extopia (29 Aug 2007)

Some info here: http://www.tft.ie


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## Cyberbams (30 Aug 2007)

I hear it can be noisy - the pellets into the boiler and presumably you have to feed them in regularly?


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## sydthebeat (30 Aug 2007)

Cyberbams said:


> I hear it can be noisy - the pellets into the boiler and presumably you have to feed them in regularly?



no, they have a self feeding mechanism called a hopper for the bulk storage version, otherwise, if you get bags delevered you have to feed yoursel, but probably no mor ethan once a day.... AFAIK


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## Builder (4 Oct 2007)

Where did you purchase the storage unit for wood pellets.  I am waiting on Balcas to supply their storage unit which seems to be coming out every month but haven't received it yet.  

For any-one buying a wood pellet boiler be sure to have the correct heat measurement for wood pellet boiler and not an oil boiler.  I found out too late that there is a difference and the my boiler is too big for my requirements.  In order to cut down the boiler I would get a digital display on the boiler and get it adjusted.  This would cost at least 500euro.  Also when running UFH they are now suggesting that a buffer tank is also used.  Again I did not know this, more money needed again.

Has anyone else come across these problems.


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## rahman (5 Oct 2007)

I have researched the whole wood pellet heating option and I still believe that its not a viable option at the moment. The quality of the pellets is crucial to the efficiency of the burner and from what I hear the pellet quality here in Ireland is not up to the same standards as the rest of europe. You also have to factor in the initial capital cost of the boiler which is alot more than a traditional oil boiler. There is also the issue of ongoing maintanance of these boilers as there are a lot more things to go wrong compared to an oil boiler. there are a lot of cowboys out there installing these boilers without proper training.
I have decided to install a Grant condensing oil boiler and a large solar panel to assist the boiler in space heating and water heating. I plan to have the option down the road of installing a geothermal system to replace the oil boiler. As old saying there is always an irish solution to an irish problem and I am still of the opinion that in time a sustainable wood pellet industry will emerge here in Ireland but at the moment that industry is only in its infancy. My advice to you would be to install an oil boiler for the moment and spend your money on good insulation for the house


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## badabing (5 Oct 2007)

Rahman
I think caution is wise, however a good pellet boiler installed by people with the right experience and track record including a large pellet storage tank (I would double SEI's min requirements) is not much more expensive that the oil / solar option and cheaper over a period of 8-10 years.

If going for a pellet boiler, don't compromise on price, if you can't afford a good one, try Rahman's solution. Also ask yourself - are you willing to clean it as required? if not stay away (PS some models require cleaning only twice per year).


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## stevo (6 Oct 2007)

I was at a home improvement show recently and the Sales Rep advised me not to go with Woodpellets if I was going with UFH as Woodpellet boiler would heat the water too hot for UFH. He indicated the Woodpellet boilers more suited for radiators.
Any opinions ?


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## P.Ranks (7 Oct 2007)

I recently moved into my newly built gaff, where I have a wood pellet boiler and UFH (Roth piping etc.).  Researched the options quite extensively, and find that this set up is working just fine.  Also installed a dual coil hot tank, as I was considering solar panels for DHW, but am thinking again about this, as the WPB is supplying plenty of hot water, and is quite efficient in that respect.  
Also considered having a buffer tank, but didn't go with it in the end, but the UFH seems to be working out just fine without it. 
Can't remember off the top of my head what the boilers output was, but it was too high for my requirements, and so had it turned down by the installer after a couple of weeks, pretty easy as it is just a function of how quickly the delivery system sends pellets to the boiler.
One thing about the WPB is that it does require a bit of maintenance, which I am more than happy to do, though those who are less hands on may not appreciate this aspect of the system.  I need to fill the hopper about once a week, as I didn't go for the direct feed from my storage silo, and the combustion chamber needs to be cleaned and ash removed every so often, about every couple of weeks (could probably do it a lot less), takes ten minutes, tops, and is really simple.
The pellets for the system are stored in a self built silo in my garage, beside the boiler, fireproofed on the side facing the boiler (tis built from ply), and the pellets seem to be burning just fine, no problems with quality whatsoever. Very little ash, remove dust from pellets while filling by using a wire guaze bucket, couldn't be happier really.
Got the pellets within two weeks from Balcas, and I know there are others suppliers of pellets now available, though I'll probably stick with them as they're quite close to me (am in north west).
Net cost of installation was around 2K, got the grant of €4200 after installation, thoughy I know theres a second phase of grants which may be a little lower, though not as reduced as the grant for the heat pump systems.
All in all, I am happy with the choice of system, its working just fine, and I would recommend it to those who like to be hands on.


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## poppy1 (9 Nov 2007)

we are storing our wood pellets in a purpose built silo, got a delivery of pellets (4 tonne) last nite and the guy reckons with the level of insulation we have and type of wpb we wont see him again for another year and a half!! - wont be moving in till jan but the heating has been on for 2 wks now drying out the house and its nice and toasty there in the evenings at 19/20 degrees.


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## Duffman (9 Nov 2007)

Just on the subject of pellet quality - I got my one & only delivery so far from Balcas.  I have noticed that there is a lot of dust in the small hopper which was commented on by the Gerkros engineer recently.  Gerkros themselves recommend an Irish company called (I think) Firestixx - who apparently have higher quality pellets based on the fact that they have had no complaints from them as yet.  Has anyone used them yet?


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## apple1 (9 Nov 2007)

Hi poppy1,
Good luck with your imminent move-in.  Any chance you could post details of your wpb here, i.e. make, model, capacity, price?  Also, I'd be interested to hear what type of build you have (block or TF), what type of heating (rads or UFH) and house size.  Thanks, apple1


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## poppy1 (9 Nov 2007)

yep - we got firestixx, but as the only arrived yesterday i cant comment on what they are like yet.!! but the guy that owns them says they are the best on the market??
our house is 2200 sq ft, we drylined all the outside walls, and got regular rads except for 5 solo rads in the large areas like the halls etc


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## shergars (9 Nov 2007)

The best heat around and cheaper


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## Mrs Aol (9 Nov 2007)

our pellet stove was supplied and installed by our German builders and the only 'Irish' pellets they advise us to use are firestix (which we do). Apparently some other pellets can have higher moisture contents and would void out stove warranty.


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## sinzer (9 Nov 2007)

got my boiler and pellets from Kedco . gave me guarantee for future requirements of pellets. got 24k boiler for 2800 foot house . more than meeting my heating needs. rep called to house to make sure got right size boiler . now getting solar from them. wpb definitely working out cheaper than oil especially now


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## ninsaga (9 Nov 2007)

I see wood pellet (bulk) prices are up...
- Balcas - €220/ton incl VAT
- Leinster pellets €235/ton incl VAT

how much are Firestix? - are they on the web (can't find them anywhere)


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## Optimistic (10 Nov 2007)

Hi. We have a WPB installed. We don't have exact figures but I agree that it is about 60% the cost of oil. 

We are running UFH directly from the boiler without any problems.  What I suggest is as one poster said, is not to compromise on boiler quality.  Our one modulates to the heat demand that is required at a given time.  Also the better models (usually more expensive) have self cleaning that requires emptying the ash once or twice a year.  They are not noisy in my opinion.

We got a fill of pellets (brother's house and our house) last winter and found them ok.  Got pellets from Firestix also, but before he had the lorry.  They are more expensive than Balcas at 235 euro per ton. Kedco sell for 185  euro per ton and our boiler supplier said that they do seem a good pellet.  We didn't have any issue with dust in our load from Balcas, but I guess loads differ.

I also agree re solar in conjunction with wood pellets. We installed a solar system and can never see it paying for itself.  

Would we install a WPB again. YES as we are happy with the system we have, efficent and same as having an oil boiler, just cheaper.  I think especially in a new build it should be considered. One has to install a heating system anyway. Add the grant to what this will cost and the difference is not that much.  

I do not supply WPB.


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## ninsaga (10 Nov 2007)

Optimistic-  would you mind advising which boiler you bought & how much it + all the ancillary equipment cost. What helped you decide on the brand. There are some good boilers at the high end of the market ie, Thermocomfort, SolarFocus, ETA, KWB, Okefen, Windhager, BioTech and there is not much between them pricewise.

ninsaga


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## Optimistic (11 Nov 2007)

Hi.  
We installed a Windhager. The reasons we went for it are:

It is modulating and will adjust to the heat requirement at a given time.
Completely automatic.
The company/manutacturer has a good history of being on the cutting edge of developing technology, though, I do accept that there are others now in the upper end of the market.
There is a 5 year guarantee on it and parts availability is guaranteed for 15 years (from memory, but I can check this)
The guy who is importing and distributing them is 30 mins drive from where we live, but this is not an issue now as he has fitters/installers in other parts of the country now.  
For my peace of mind, I had begun talking with him about installing a WPB way (like 18 months+) before the grants were announced, so in my opinion he is committed to staying with them long term. One concern I would have with many WPB suppliers that have appeared since the grants were announced, is willl they be there for the long haul!!

It cost just under 11K euros (minus the grant of 4200 euros), for the completely automatic version but I know I got a good price at that. That excl the flue as that is a variable and I think there were some bits and pieces on to that. I can try to find the receipts and let you know the total.

Hope this helps.  It does operate like a dream and I think the savings are about 60% of oil. If any other questions please ask. By the way I do not sell for the company, just a satisfied customer.  Optimistic


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## stevo (12 Nov 2007)

Optimistic

You mentioned in a previous mail you had issues with Solar panels. Were they flat or Tubular and why would you not recommend them.
I am at the building stage and had given the WPB and solar panel option serious consideration


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## Optimistic (13 Nov 2007)

stevo said:


> Optimistic
> 
> You mentioned in a previous mail you had issues with Solar panels. Were they flat or Tubular and why would you not recommend them.
> I am at the building stage and had given the WPB and solar panel option serious consideration



Hi. We have 8 sq mtrs of flat plate installed on a south facing roof at 40 degree pitch, for two of us in the house and we are hot high DHW users. It is heating a 800 ltr buffer tank.  We obviously did not have the heating on for the summer, so solar was contributing to DHW needs only. 

I am told and the research that is done says that tubes are about 15% more efficient that flat.  They cost more and need maintenance when they loose vacum etc, can break if hit.  Though I think there are systems coming out now that are better.

We were going with oil and solar to begin with, and thus installed solar. We decided to go with WPB (I had researched it all at least 12 mths before the grants came on) and drop the oil, when the grants came in.  A couple of people advised/recommended that we make provision for solar and install later if not happy with WPB. But with what we heard about how good solar was we decided to go ahead with it anyway. A decision we now regret.  

I have met several people that have solar installed and they are not to impressed with it's contribution. Of course it does not make me happy to admit that we spent money on something that is not operating. I also met a plumber at a trade counter and happend to get talking with him. He says that solar will never pay for itself. Heatpumps and WPB are ok in his opinion. I tend to agree.  

We get most solar gain in summer time (well bar the summer of 2007!!) How much does it cost to heat DHW for our summer months?  Heating is the higher bill and not DHW requirements, in my opinion. So we spend, in my situation, as I missed the grant, 5500 euros plus the solar tank to save what is the smaller bill. 

The hotest water we got from solar was 51 degrees C. Unless there is something wrong with our system and I have contacted our supplier/fitter without much success so far to check to see if there is something wrong with our system, but he will not return or accept my call. 

Compare this with wood pellets.  I cannot give exact figures for what our DHW heating bill would be with pellets, but I do think it would be small. 

In hind sight (wonderful thing to have) what would we do?  We would install WPB no doubt as I see the savings to be made there. In a new build especially, one has to install a heating system anyway. oil will cost 1500 plus, incl tank and base conservatively, add this to the grant which I think had been decreased now and I think that a good pellet boiler becomes more attractive again. One cannot incl the cost of controls as they are also needed for oil.   We have had no problem in getting pellets bulk, though it was a bit tight last winter. This year is ok.

I hope the above makes sense as I don't think I explain myself great writing, but if there are any questions, please ask.  I do not sell WPB by the way. Optimistic


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## ninsaga (13 Nov 2007)

Hi Optimistic - I think over time, as more of these systems are installed, people will start to relay their experiences - such as you have - so thanks for that as there are not to many people publishing their findings right now.

One observation though is that 8sqmtrs should be sufficient - but an 800ltr tank is quite big so its going to struggle there I think. A typical solar tank would be 300ltrs. That 'may' be a contributor. Did your installer say that 8sqm would heat that tank easily enough?

Also another major contributor of course is the efficiency of the collectors themselves - does the solar controller provide readings of the temp at the collectors? Are the pipes from the collectors well insulated & is the travel distance to the tank very far. Might be worth looking at those.
What's done is done of course & I would not expect you to add much more money to enhance the solar water heating - but at least it is preheating your water anyway - which is still a help.

ninsaga


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## eire1977 (13 Nov 2007)

Optimistic,
Can you tell me who you got your solar panels from and did they install them.  If not, did you get your plumber to install.  Did he have any experience in installing solar panels (just wondering how difficult it really is)


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## Optimistic (13 Nov 2007)

Hi.
 The digital readings and solar pump readings match, to within a degree or two the clock readings on the station.  The distance from the panels to the pumping station/tank is the height of the house, 25-30 feet approx.  The are well insualted with high grade armour flex insulation, what the supplier recommended.  The panels were fitted by the supplier, reason being.  He quoted 1100 euro for fitting and the VAT was charged at 13.5 % VAT for fitting and materials. If I fitted myself I would have paid 21% VAT on the materials. I figured that the difference between did not justify me fitting them myself. 

Yes, I agree that it is a big tank to heat, BUT if there are only two people in the house, that are not high DHW users, surely over a few days it will keep heating the water to higher temperatures, IN summer time, when the space heating is off. I understand that winter is a different story and do not expect it to be capable of heating the tank then.

There is nothing to fitting the system oneself, put the panels on the roof, connect the pipes  and insulate and fill and bleed the system with antifreeze in it, connect the temp sensors. To re-inforce this. When we were at the building show in Milstreet two weeks ago, one supplier said that they can supply the panels and fit them yourself and they can arrange to have you registered for fitting to get the grant  

Our supplier was Solaris in Co. Cork (hope it is ok to name) and with what we have expereinced in service from them we would not recommend them to anyone. The reason we went with this company in the first place was they have been selling solar systems the longest. 

I will keep people posted.   Optimistic


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## EOC07 (29 Nov 2007)

Hi 

I am considering going with a wood pellet boiler in new build. Can anyone clear up a couple of queries for me.

During the Summer months can space heating be switched of, and the WPB only used for heating water?

Will the WPB work well with radiators, instead of UFH?

I am building in the midlands, anyone have good experiences with a boiler/installer they would recommend.

Many Thanks


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## bamboozle (29 Nov 2007)

Family member installed one, it does a great job and is about 50-60% the cost of oil, 
Major headache for him was finding somebody who was actually able to properly install it.
Will certainly add value to house.


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## Optimistic (29 Nov 2007)

EOC07 said:


> Hi
> 
> I am considering going with a wood pellet boiler in new build. Can anyone clear up a couple of queries for me.
> 
> ...


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## sfag (29 Nov 2007)

Lads,

after reading thru the posts I still see no proof that pellet burners are economical. The only real proof is reporting the total cost for a complete year. Given that and the size of the house you'll be able to estimate. If you dont go thru a winter then you just cannot say.

On solar panels - avoid - they dont work.

On wind turbines - avoid - they dont work.

South facing windows - they do work and they're cheap.

Avoid any heating source that supplments or pre heats the water - pointless -  either it does the job 100%  or not.

Fact - Cost of heating the hot water needs for my house with 4 clean people and a daily clothes wash and dishwash = one euro. GET THAT!. Conslcusion - never consider the saving to be made on providing hot water - its just not worth making.

Undefloor heating - fantastic. However the system and esp. the boiler must be installed properly - I've found that many plumers and electricians that install under floor heating systems do them wrong. Mine did 6 UHF systems a year and still did them wrong. UHF systems get a bad press because of wrong plumber installation. 

Wood pellet burners. 
Two of my neighbours have them. Have yet to go thru one winter so I cant say how they are getting on. You'll have to add a high rise silo - expensive and ugly.

Geothermal - a guy in a heating boiler wholesalers said surface piping systems dont work and the drill down pipe method does - take from that what you will.

btw one of the neighbours wood pellet burners was wired wrong and as a result was running 4 times more expensive than my gas boiler.


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## Optimistic (30 Nov 2007)

sfag said:


> Lads,
> 
> after reading thru the posts I still see no proof that pellet burners are economical. The only real proof is reporting the total cost for a complete year. Given that and the size of the house you'll be able to estimate. If you dont go thru a winter then you just cannot say.
> 
> ...



Hi, What heating system do you use?  I agree that with a lot of installers, they do not know what they are doing, just charging huge money for work they are learning about.  With storing wood pellets, you do not need a high rise silo as you state, an area2 mtrs cubed is the max for pellet storage. We are building ours out of 3/4 inch ply wood incsaed in 3 inch angle iron, total cost about somewhere about 300-400 euros. I don't have an exact figure are waiting for the iron still.


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## sfag (30 Nov 2007)

I use gas. Two years ago when I did a new build there were no incentives to go alternative. Will swap systems when I see one that genuinely works. There will be more in the future and they will get cheaper and smaller. The 'real' cost of going alternative is still pretty huge. 
The thing is those who do try something new are very relucant to admit if it is not performing as well as the hoped. 
It was a neighbour that built the large silo - I guess to economise on refils.

My experience of plumbers unfortunately is that few are actually good at their jobs. Luckily for them there is always demand.


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## Optimistic (1 Dec 2007)

sfag said:


> I use gas. Two years ago when I did a new build there were no incentives to go alternative. Will swap systems when I see one that genuinely works. There will be more in the future and they will get cheaper and smaller. The 'real' cost of going alternative is still pretty huge.
> The thing is those who do try something new are very relucant to admit if it is not performing as well as the hoped.
> It was a neighbour that built the large silo - I guess to economise on refils.
> 
> My experience of plumbers unfortunately is that few are actually good at their jobs. Luckily for them there is always demand.



demand will change now, I think.  If something is not working I will admit it.  Read previous postings re solar.  I spent 5.5 k euro on them and it is a waste of money. Would have been better to have ahd the satisfaction of burning it.  I can never see it paying for itself. UNLESS there is something serioulsy wrong with mine   I am happy with the WPB.  Thanks for confirming the heating system you use.


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## lastbuilders (1 Dec 2007)

I have a WPB in use for the last year and am pretty happy with it. It requires more maintenance than an oil boiler but this is about 10 mins every week or two to empty the boiler and clean ash off the inside. You can get one that does not require this maintenance but they cost about 4 thousand euro more so we decided that 10 mins maintenance every week or so would be better option. 

We also got a DIY pellet store built in our garage using plywood and blocks which came to about 450. 

I would say the cost of heating the house over the year will come in at about 650 euros which includes hot water and radiators for the year. We haven't used the immersion once so far and have used the electric shower very rarely. The house is about 2700 sq feet timberframe. During building we did put in LOTS of insulation (hemp) and made the house as airtight as possible and have a HRV system which I think all help. 

Lastbuilders


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## allaboutheat (23 Oct 2009)

Wood pellet boilers should not be noicy, you have options of a feeder system or feed them manually.  Bulk storage or bags, The choices are there only be carefull that the pellets are to the standard that your boiler manufacturer has in its manual.  As the wrong quality pellets can cause problems.

I am going to install a pellet boiler in my house, we also sell them, this also gives options do I want a boiler as the oil or gas boiler (outside the house) or do I want a stove with a hot water option or without.  

There are so many options and so many boilers out there, if you do decide to buy one, make sure it gets commissioned by a manufacturer trained engineer, as all boiler are basically the same they al cary different software.

The prices of the pellets Vary, but so dooes the quality, consistancy is great, Ask your commissioning servicing engineer wich ones he or she likes best.  Get the best quality pellet you can afford.  This will ensure your boiler works without trouble, wrong fuel can be costly (ie. to hard a pellet, to long a pellet to soft powdery can cause a real problem witht he feeder system)

Do remember, a pellet or log or a combination of both boilers are a life choice as you do have to do some maintenance yourself, also the servicing cost is higher as a wood boiler stove takes a lot longer to service than a gas or oil.  On the day of service they can not be used as they need to be cold when serviced.  Also the biomass boilers tend to be more expensive than a top of the range oil or gas boiler.

If you do not mind the above, go for it.  You will help the environment, and you will have no carbon taxes to pay when this kicks in after the budget.


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## galwaytt (24 Oct 2009)

sfag said:


> Lads,
> 
> after reading thru the posts I still see no proof that pellet burners are economical. The only real proof is reporting the total cost for a complete year. Given that and the size of the house you'll be able to estimate. If you dont go thru a winter then you just cannot say.


 quite possibly true.



> On solar panels - avoid - they dont work.


 Nonsense.



> On wind turbines - avoid - they dont work.


 A lot of rubbish out there, I agree. Big commercial ones do, but there again that explains the price.........



> South facing windows - they do work and they're cheap.


...so long as your planners agree great. If not, tough, you'll have to go with what they say - energy efficiency won't come into and we don't all have the ability to rotate our houses......



> Avoid any heating source that supplments or pre heats the water - pointless - either it does the job 100% or not.


 Again, nonsense. It's physics. Water that's 40 deg only needs a 20 deg lift to 60. 10 degree water needs a 50 degree lift. The bigger the lift, the more energy it'll take to heat it. Sounds to me like you have control system issues..........I know I do with mine, btw.......



> Fact - Cost of heating the hot water needs for my house with 4 clean people and a daily clothes wash and dishwash = one euro. GET THAT!. Conslcusion - never consider the saving to be made on providing hot water - its just not worth making.


....can't say, my solar heats most of mine........so how to cost ?



> Undefloor heating - fantastic. However the system and esp. the boiler must be installed properly - I've found that many plumers and electricians that install under floor heating systems do them wrong. Mine did 6 UHF systems a year and still did them wrong. UHF systems get a bad press because of wrong plumber installation.


 Yes. Damhik......



> Wood pellet burners.
> Two of my neighbours have them. Have yet to go thru one winter so I cant say how they are getting on. You'll have to add a high rise silo - expensive and ugly.


 Big, yes. Ugly, indeed. Expensive. Yep.



> Geothermal - a guy in a heating boiler wholesalers said surface piping systems dont work and the drill down pipe method does - take from that what you will.


 Maybe so, but the glaciers determine whether your deep drill works or not, and unless you've a movable site, you won't know 'til you drill. Expensive guesswork.



> btw one of the neighbours wood pellet burners was wired wrong and as a result was running 4 times more expensive than my gas boiler.


 ...can happen to any system....damhik.........


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