# Wits end Mgt Co -€1.5k pa but no cleaning, no bins being collected, no grass cutting!



## Little Miss! (18 Aug 2010)

Morning all,

I'm really at my wits end at this stage and really need some help regarding this matter.

I've been living in my apartment now for 4 years, paying my management fees on time every year, this year I paid €1500. 

However seems like i'm one of only a few paying the fees and all services at our development have stopped - no cleaning, no bins being collected, no grass cutting and all the rest. The last time i spoke to the agent regarding this i was told we were lucky to have insurance! 

The development has suffered badly, grass as high as your waist, rubbish littered all over the car parks (even saw a toaster in the car park this morning!), cigarette butts outside all doors - hundreds, the bins are over flowing with bags of rubbish left on the ground - it won't be long before we're over run with rats as i'm sure the poison traps around the place are not being seen to.

I could go on and on but it makes my blood boil to think i've paid so much money first of all for the apartment and secondly that i've paid thousands towards the upkeep of the development and it looks like a rubbish tip.

Please can anyone help me out as i'm at the point where i don't even want to live there any more but can't sell till things pick up, please please help


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## mf1 (18 Aug 2010)

Do something about it. 

Get involved. 

Get in touch with your neighbours and organise a meeting. Organise a clean up. 

There is no point waiting for someone else to do it. 

mf


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## Little Miss! (18 Aug 2010)

thanks mf1 for the reply

i see what you're saying about meeting with neighbours but to be quiet honest i don't have the time to organise meetings or to take part in any clean up -  i'm not saying i wouldn't be prepared to take part if i had some free time as i'd be more than willing but at the moment there are not enough hours in the day to do what needs to be done as it is.

would you be happy paying that amount of money and then having to head out and do the work yourself?!


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## dereko1969 (18 Aug 2010)

You are a member of the management company, have you not been attending AGMs bringing your point of view up at meetings, submitting motions, looking at the accounts?

When is your next AGM? If you get in touch with other owners you may be able to force an EGM and get something done about it.


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## Little Miss! (18 Aug 2010)

dereko1969 - i've never been notified of any agm's since i moved in, i spoke to the agent about this about 5 wks ago and was told that they are waiting for last years accounts to be returned for the accountants and they will call an agm then, said it would take about 3 wks - haven't heard anything since 

sorry i should add, the agent claims we've no money to make any improvements or even to pay for services so can't see what i can do


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## dereko1969 (18 Aug 2010)

well then you might be in a position to have the current agent sacked, if they haven't been following correct procedures.


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## Little Miss! (18 Aug 2010)

it's a pure disaster to be honest - even if we did sack the agent we're still no further along - we'll still have no money to make improvements or to pay for services. i just can't see a way to sort this


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## purpeller (18 Aug 2010)

LittleMiss,

It's great that you have paid your fees - most don't, but quite simply, these things don't run themselves and even the best managing agent needs overseeing by directors.  If there's never been an AGM, then it's up to you and like-minded people to get involved and start making sure these things happen correctly.  Have you tried contacting the directors, who from the sounds of it, are not doing their job correctly?  It does take up some time but not as much as you'd think.  A meeting once a month at most, a couple of phonecalls or emails during the week, I find it's worth my while being involved.  If something isn't working in my development, I know why it hasn't been fixed yet.

P


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## alaskaonline (18 Aug 2010)

I used to live in an apartment complex with exactly the same problems. I used to live on the 3rd floor with a newborn baby and they even stopped the lifts eventually which meant, I had to walk the stairs with the baby and a pram. My luck was, I only rented and as soon as after signing my house, I moved out (caring about 30 boxes and furniture down the stairs!).

However I do feel for you and no AGM meeting or phone calls to directors really do make you feel better. When it comes to the stage where everything's being neglected - you - as the only person won't be able to make a difference. 
I do remember though that the neighbors who did pay got together and involved a solicitor because the director kept changing his phone number to avoid the angry calls, and there was just not getting anywhere with that management company. The solicitor than (on behalf of the residents) sued the management company. I haven't heard anything since then i.e. what the outcome was etc. because as said, I had moved but I do know that the residents themselves (at the time) organized a bin pick up company and cleaned up the area themselves. They included that in the case against the management company because they had paid for a service that wasn't done i.e. they (management company) were in breach of contract. I know that the management company itself would have to go down the legal route with those refusing to pay so there is no justification for breaching the contract with those that have paid.

I wish you lot's of luck and hope this problem gets sorted.


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## Seagull (18 Aug 2010)

If you've never received notification of an AGM, it sounds like the management company could be in breach of the companies acts. Ask the management agent what address notification of previous AGMs was sent to for you?

How many of the apartments in the development have been sold?


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## elcato (18 Aug 2010)

Are you sure that the management co. is not still in the hands of the builder and he is basically not doing anything about it. I believe this has been the case for some estates that the builder is responsible for a few years at the start as a kind of sweetener to buy. It's strange that you didn't get an AGM letter unless this is the case.


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## Seagull (19 Aug 2010)

Even if the managament company is under control of the developer, they still have to advertise and hold AGMs.


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## Little Miss! (19 Aug 2010)

thanks everyone for the replies

at the moment there are 2 directors of the management company, 1 lives in the development the other lives elsewhere in the city.

i've never been notified of agms and i'm living there since the start of 07, however yesterday i received notification of an egm being held at the end of this months regarding failure to pay fees by some owners. 

the development and grounds are seriously suffering, the place is a mess. what really worries me is the fact rubbish is being left outside of bins which in time is going to attract foxes and rats. 

does anyone know if there's anyone i can complain to regarding the rubbish as it really is a health issue at present, again any help is really appreciated


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## purpeller (19 Aug 2010)

Time to educate yourself and go along to that EGM - read the Robert Gogan book and send a list of points for discussion to the agent.  You should also talk to your neighbours and see if they will come along too.  You can't be the only one bothered by all of this.  I don't know if the local council will be any help on the rubbish issue, but it may be worth a phonecall to check.


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## Complainer (19 Aug 2010)

Little Miss! said:


> does anyone know if there's anyone i can complain to regarding the rubbish as it really is a health issue at present, again any help is really appreciated


I think HSE look after environmental health issues. There is a list of EHO offices on the HSE website.


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## Little Miss! (20 Aug 2010)

Guys thanks again for the advice

However i'm still stuck, i've contacted the local council, the hsa and the hse in relation to the over flowing bins but none of them can help us as it's a private development. 

It's disgraceful really that no one can help us out with this matter, there really is no where to turn, it's a case of putting up with it. Only a matter of time before i can't even open my windows for fear of rats crawling in . 

That was the greatest waste of €1500 ever, i know it's adding to the problem but i for one will not be paying fees next year, i think i've wasted enough money already.

The only thing i can think of is to maybe try get the council to take over the development, does anyone have any idea how we would go about that, again any help would be appreciated


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## DianeC401 (20 Aug 2010)

Little Miss, if you look at previous threads on AAM you will see that non-payment of fees is not the answer - you will be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

There is a solution to your problems but that solution will have to involve YOU. You (and any neighbours you can rustle up) must become personally involved in the running of your management company. There are no short cuts. No magic wands. And this isn't a problem you can simply report to someone else to sort.  

When you signed the lease to buy your apartment you in effect joined the management company.  You will also have agreed to pay any maintenance fees associated with the development. So you will not have a leg to stand on legally if you refuse to pay them in the future. All you will be doing is adding even more debt to your own development. And that is only going to harm you in the end.

I do have sympathy for you. This is an awful situation, and it sounds like your development has been run appallingly. But try and turn your anger and energies down a more productive path.

Read previous threads on AAM about this. Check out the Apartment Owners Network ([broken link removed]). The NCA also have an informative site ([broken link removed]) and the book previously mentioned is full of good advice as well.  

And as previous posters have said - make sure you attend the EGM.  But please try and get yourself savvy on how management companies work before you do so.

The council may agree to take over the development but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. Also it's a protracted process and you still need a functioning management company to run the actual apartments. So even if you did get them to take over the road/grounds you would still have problems with lighting in corridors, lift maintenance etc. And everyone has to pay for waste removal one way or another. The council aren't going to come in and sort all that out for you.  Because those areas don't belong to them - they belong to you and the rest of your neighbours.

Good luck!  And remember you don't have to 'just put up with it'.  You CAN do something about it.


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## Little Miss! (20 Aug 2010)

Thanks DianeC401 for the information, the problem is many of the apartments are rented and landlords aren't interested in the development and correct me if i'm wrong but renting tenants have no say in the management company. 

I see what you're saying about not paying fees but to be honest, i've paid approx €1500 per year since Feb 07 and i'm not getting the service i'm paying for or anything even close. At the moment we don't even have insurance!

I guess my only other option is to rent out the apartment and go back renting myself


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## pbcup (20 Aug 2010)

*Sounds terrible...*

Hi Little Miss,

It's sounds really dreadful.  The place I live used to be like this, but it's really improving since we kicked out our directors and hired decent agents.

The first thing that has to happen is that your directors have to clean up their act.  Your agents are a disaster.  Their number one duty is to collect the management fee.  If people are not paying then the directors should direct the agents to issue legal proceedings against them.

There are four things your agents/management company directors need to do to be at a basic threshold of competence:
1. Collect fees and pursue those who don't pay
2. Provide block insurance
3. Ensure waste collection
4. Ensure the electric supply to common areas

Failure on any of these points is inexcusable.

The AGM has to be called at least once every 15 months.  If this is refused, you can call an EGM yourself, and if that is refused you can hold it anyway.  This is not difficult even if it appears daunting.  It is only a matter of sending a few letters and getting some signatures.  Read your lease and your management company's Memorandum and Articles of Association.

You need to form a residents' committee.  Make sure your general meeting is held.  First order of business - new directors, second - new management agents.

I can recommend Anderson Property Consultants and Core Estate Management, both based in Dun Laoghaire as property agents.  They are both very professional and reputable.  Be warned, they will be unlikely to take on a development which does not have a reasonably involved residents' committee.

Good luck.


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## DianeC401 (20 Aug 2010)

LittleMiss, don't give up hope. 5 years ago when I moved into my development the management company had a judgement against it, it was €500k in debt, the communal areas were shabby, we had loads of structural/building problems, no house rules were enforced and as a result it was becoming a noisy and chaotic place to live. 

We were lucky in that we had one very committed and able resident who took over the Board but with the help of other neighbours we gradually turned the place round.  We are now completely solvent, we sorted the judgement issue, we are tackling the building problems, and it's a well maintained and peaceful place to live.  I love it now and wouldn't live anywhere else! 

All this was achieved with approx 80% of the apartments having been bought by investor landlords.  Not all of them will be unwilling to help (although I take your point - many of them won't care as they're not living there themselves). But any decent businessman or woman will want to make the most out of their 'investment' such as it is in the current market. 

It's a renters market out there and landlords are going to find it very hard to rent their apartment when the development is in such a state.  They will have a higher turn over of tenants and won't be able to charge top rate rents. They are also less likely to get 'good' tenants.  So they may be persuaded that it is in their interest to get involved.

As you say, tenants can't get involved with the running of the company. But they can put pressure on their landlords to do something. And we find that although 'officially' tenants in our building can't help, a good proportion of them are very obliging and do their bit to help keep our complex clean and tidy. They have at times given services for free etc because after all they are living there as well and it is their home too.

Unfortunately if you are finding it difficult to live there at the moment you're not going to find it easy to get anyone to pay to live there either. So renting the apartment out may not be an option.

You are entitled to see details of who else is in your management company so perhaps if you can get even a handful of owner occupiers together you could write to the rest of the members to explain how badly the development has deteriorated.

I know this all sounds like huge hassle for you but it must be awful to be living there at the moment so surely it's worth doing something. Even by posting a few notes through people's doors you can gauge the level of interest with your neighbours.  If there are 3 or 4 of you even - who are willing to give a little time to it - you can reap huge benefits. And it's not all resting on your shoulders.

Once other owners know that something is happening and people are getting together to sort the problems, you may find they will be more likely to pay their fees next year.  And if they aren't - well hopefully you will have a good management agency in place by then who can chase them through legal routes to pay up.  Once members know you mean business you may be pleasantly surprised how quickly you can get money in and start making improvements.

It will be very interesting to hear what comes up at the EGM. 

Remember if you are in Dublin the Apartment Owners Network meet up once a month so it might be worth your while to contact them - at least you will know you are not alone!


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## Inca (11 Oct 2010)

Little Miss - feel so sorry for you in this situation as you are paying your service charges and subsidising other owners who have not bothered to pay their charges.

The Directors of the Management Company are ultimately responsible for putting things right as they are supposed to be running the Company on behalf of the members. They employ a Managing Agent to run the development on a day to day basis but as Directors they are ultimately responsible.

From their point of view, I guess it is difficult to turn things around without funding so they need to pursue non paying members through legal means.

If service charges are not collected then the Management Company will not be able to pay for even the most basic of services e.g paying the electricity bill for lighting.

I think you need to ask the Directors to call an Extraordinary General Meeting and come up with a plan of action to turn things around before it is too late.

It is in everyone's interest to pay the service charges - property prices are maximised, rents are maximised and people who live there will have their quality of life improved.

Best of luck and I hope that you can pull a group together who will turn this around.


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## ajapale (6 Nov 2010)

Bubbly Scot said:


> I suggest you attend your next AGM and  question each and every expense listed including the agents fees which  will have been approved by your Directors but as an owner you are  entitled to know what you are being charged for.
> 
> Added bit: I'm a Management Agent



How come you didnt follow up on Bubblys excellent advice when you posted back in 2008?

Management Fees Cork


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## Little Miss! (23 Nov 2010)

ajapale said:


> How come you didnt follow up on Bubblys excellent advice when you posted back in 2008?


 

Unfortunately there has never been an AGM for the management company since I moved in


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