# Opinion: People who do nixers and don’t pay tax on the income?



## Purple (14 May 2010)

What is the opinion of posters about people who do nixers and don’t pay tax on the income?

These could be plumbers or electricians or they could be teachers doing grinds or solicitors or doctors pocketing cash payments or farmers/growers selling product for cash or at farmers markets and not declaring the income.

Morally I see no difference between this activity and the property developers who evaded millions, the only difference is the developers were better at it, better thief’s as it were.

Do others agree?


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## callybags (14 May 2010)

I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that property developers have evaded tax.

I do agree that the scale of tax evasion, whether it be €1 or €1 million is immaterial. They are equally wrong.


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## Caveat (14 May 2010)

I don't know about this.

Morally yes, there is no difference - it is tax evasion - but there always has been and always will be a black or cash market and I think some degree of tolerance and common sense should apply. Almost impossible to properly police anyway.

I would have far more of a problem with people claiming SW and doing nixers than those simply topping up their income.


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## Mpsox (14 May 2010)

If a tradesman said to you, that'll be €3000 or €2500 in cash, let's be honest about it, how many people here would pay the €3k?


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## Purple (14 May 2010)

I agree; most people will facilitate tax evasion if iy saved them money as well.


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## Shawady (14 May 2010)

We are getting some renovation work done to our house and have signed contracts with a builder. The VAT is going to come to 7k so I can see why it would be tempting for people to just get things done for cash.
The guy that drew up our plans reckons a lot of extensions he sees now, the clients are just getting the builder to do the shell and they are then getting it kitted out by tradesmen cash in hand to save money. It is probably something that is going to beocme more common.


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## z107 (14 May 2010)

> If a tradesman said to you, that'll be €3000 or €2500 in cash, let's be honest about it, how many people here would pay the €3k?


I have enough to worry about making sure my own tax affairs are correct, paid and up to date. Why should I have to worry about other people's tax affairs? I pay them the money in whatever form they like. Then it's out of my hands. It's up to them to declare it.

I'm not 'facilitating tax evasion' - just paying the trades person the amount they want, in the manner they want.

Why, also, do people assume that cash payments must be to evade tax? Maybe the trades person doesn't want a cheque that will bounce, or maybe doesn't have a bank account (like some politicians)

I would be far, far more concerned about where our taxes are ending up, and how much money is being wasted on the banks.


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## csirl (14 May 2010)

I would advocate a hard line approach. Every citizen of this country has a responsibility to pay their fair share of tax. 

However, due to the complexities of our tax system, it is very difficult for people with occasional extra income to determine their tax liability. Our tax system is way too complex. If we had a simple flat rate tax, this problem would go away. Everyone would know that they have to pay X% of all their income full stop, so would be easy to be tax compliant.


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## Purple (14 May 2010)

I agree csirl


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## annR (14 May 2010)

I usually never think about it but when I hear about friends of friends bragging about how much money they are making on nixers it makes my blood boil.  This guy (architect) is making about E20k a year tax free.  and BRAGS about it to people who were just made redundant.  I don't really know enough about them to report them.


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## johnd (14 May 2010)

annR said:


> I usually never think about it but when I hear about friends of friends bragging about how much money they are making on nixers it makes my blood boil.  This guy (architect) is making about E20k a year tax free.  and BRAGS about it to people who were just made redundant.  I don't really know enough about them to report them.



I imagine Revenue would just need a name and address and they will find their own method of investigation


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## UptheDeise (14 May 2010)

annR said:


> I usually never think about it but when I hear about friends of friends bragging about how much money they are making on nixers it makes my blood boil. This guy (architect) is making about E20k a year tax free. and BRAGS about it to people who were just made redundant. I don't really know enough about them to report them.


 

What annoys me the most, is the same people who don't pay their taxes still demand excellent public services.


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## Latrade (14 May 2010)

Like anyone who's added a few extra KM onto their expenses and then complained at TD's fiddling expenses, there is no difference on paper. But I suppose like theft there are different extremes and caveats and are classified differently or have different punishments.

As an aside on nixers, a long time ago I when putting forward a quote for work, I was asked by the individual (when looking at the proposed fee) with a straight face whether there is anyway I could do the work as a nixer and keep costs down. That's not too unusal a request, it's just particular individual was emploed at a state agency. I can't say which agency exactly, it rhymes with Hevenue Hommissioners, but that's all you're getting out of me.


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## Leo (14 May 2010)

Mpsox said:


> If a tradesman said to you, that'll be €3000 or €2500 in cash, let's be honest about it, how many people here would pay the €3k?


 
One problem with that approach is if there are issues with the work down the line, you have no come back, as no legally enforcable contract exists.


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## truthseeker (14 May 2010)

Mpsox said:


> If a tradesman said to you, that'll be €3000 or €2500 in cash, let's be honest about it, how many people here would pay the €3k?


 
Its not my business to enforce a tradesman to legally comply with his tax returns. If he told me the job could be done for 2500 Id assume he was using cheaper materials or something and not give a thought to his tax affairs - why should I?


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## Mpsox (14 May 2010)

Leo said:


> One problem with that approach is if there are issues with the work down the line, you have no come back, as no legally enforcable contract exists.


 
Why not?, you've bought a service and paid for it, if the suppliers tax affairs are not in order, that's not your problem. As other posters on here have said, requests to pay in cash may not necessarily be a tax dodge.


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## Firefly (14 May 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Its not my business to enforce a tradesman to legally comply with his tax returns. If he told me the job could be done for 2500 Id assume he was using cheaper materials or something and not give a thought to his tax affairs - why should I?


 
Unless both parties are somehow both required to register the deal then yes you can use that defence. In this country though a "cash price" obviously infers and under-the-counter arrangement.


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## z107 (14 May 2010)

> What annoys me the most, is the same people who don't pay their taxes still demand excellent public services.


That annoys you the most does it? 

How much money could we be talking about here? - does it even come close to the billions that we are losing because of the government? Out of Nama, Bank bailouts, bank guarantees, tax breaks for property investment, TD pensions and 'expenses' etc, etc, etc... this probably annoys me the least.


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## Caveat (14 May 2010)

Just as an aside, to be perfectly honest, every single job that has ever been carried out on our house by tradesmen I have paid for in cash -without receipt. AFAIK, the experiences of my friends have been the same.

VAT, invoices etc was never even raised by either party,  but neither was the phrase "cash price" with nods etc.

Just the way it has always gone.  How much? €x - there you go.

Whilst it's safe enough to assume that at least some of these were undeclared income, I'm not passing judgement either way, just saying how utterly casual and commonplace this seems to be.


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## Purple (14 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> That annoys you the most does it?
> 
> How much money could we be talking about here? - does it even come close to the billions that we are losing because of the government? Out of Nama, Bank bailouts, bank guarantees, tax breaks for property investment, TD pensions and 'expenses' etc, etc, etc... this probably annoys me the least.



So stealing is ok as long as you aren't very good at it?


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## z107 (14 May 2010)

> So stealing is ok as long as you aren't very good at it?


Does that comment have any relevance to what I posted? Just wondering, because you quoted me.


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## Purple (14 May 2010)

Caveat said:


> I'm not passing judgement either way, just saying how utterly casual and commonplace this seems to be.



And that’s the crux of it really; the double standards that most of us apply. We get up on our high horses about others abusing the tax system, some of us even give out about very wealthy Irish people who don’t live here not paying tax here, but we are happy enough to get a discount on what we pay even though we know that the recipient of our cash will evade tax.


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## Purple (14 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Does that comment have any relevance to what I posted? Just wondering, because you quoted me.



Yes, tens (if not hundreds) of millions of Euro is stolen from the Irish people every year by people evading their taxes. That bothers you less than the comparatively miniscule amount of money that TD’s get in expenses. On a purely emotional level I can understand this but if you look at in a rational way the plumbers, sparks, chippies and teachers doing nixers and not making a tax return are a far bigger problem. 

They are thiefs, the only difference is individually it's on a small scale.


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## Protocol (14 May 2010)

One solution is to *abolish cash* as a form of money.

Greece has recently restricted cash transactions above 1500, as part of efforts to reduce tax evasion.

Abolishing cash would reduce prostutition, illegal drug sales, bank robberies, untaxed income, etc.

It's a win-win all round:

no cash handling costs for shops, banks, etc.
drop in crime
reduced tax evasion
more tax revenue allows lower tax rates
etc. that I can't think of at the moment
There are difficulties, e.g. tourism, elderly people, etc.


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## Shawady (14 May 2010)

Just on a tangent, what about tips in the catering trade?

Chefs and waiting staff rely on tips to make up their weekly wage. Should this be put in same category as nixers?
I assume this is not declared as income. Should this money be put through the restaurant's books and subject to tax or is it seen as a 'gift' between customer and staff?


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## Caveat (14 May 2010)

Good point.

Selling stuff on ebay is another one.


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## Caveat (14 May 2010)

Purple said:


> And that’s the crux of it really; the double standards that most of us apply. We get up on our high horses about others abusing the tax system, some of us even give out about very wealthy Irish people who don’t live here not paying tax here, but we are happy enough to get a discount on what we pay even though we know that the recipient of our cash will evade tax.


 
Yes fair enough, but in my examples a discount or cash price etc was never sought or discussed - it was just the price I was given. Would any private individual seriously then turn around and demand a VAT invoice instead?

I suppose the logical, moral solution is to request this in advance but if the job isn't critical (where the option of comeback would be desirable and could be assured via VAT invoice etc), why would anyone willingly pay more and what's more, volunteer to do so?

I know it's what they *should* do but there is more of an onus on the tradesman to talk in terms of price + VAT in the first place IMO.


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## csirl (14 May 2010)

Shawady said:


> Just on a tangent, what about tips in the catering trade?
> 
> Chefs and waiting staff rely on tips to make up their weekly wage. Should this be put in same category as nixers?
> I assume this is not declared as income. Should this money be put through the restaurant's books and subject to tax or is it seen as a 'gift' between customer and staff?


 
Tips are taxable and should be recorded as bonuses on payslips.



> Good point.
> 
> Selling stuff on ebay is another one.


 
The occasional selling of second hand items on ebay is not taxable. However, selling new goods or high volumes of second hand good is - the majority of such eBay sellers are actually small businesses and file tax returns/accounts etc.


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## Caveat (14 May 2010)

csirl said:


> Tips are taxable and should be recorded as bonuses on payslips.


 
But is this ever the case?

I'm guessing it's rare enough.


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## z107 (14 May 2010)

> Yes, tens (if not hundreds) of millions of Euro is stolen from the Irish people every year by people evading their taxes. That bothers you less than the comparatively miniscule amount of money that TD’s get in expenses. On a purely emotional level I can understand this but if you look at in a rational way the plumbers, sparks, chippies and teachers doing nixers and not making a tax return are a far bigger problem.


TD's expenses was just one of the things I posted. More important by far is Nama and bank bailouts. How do these compare to tax evasion by trades people? - this is measured in billions, rather than millions.

Yes, TD expenses annoy me more because these are the people that supposedly make the rules.



> And that’s the crux of it really; the double standards that most of us apply. We get up on our high horses about others abusing the tax system, some of us even give out about very wealthy Irish people who don’t live here not paying tax here, but we are happy enough to get a discount on what we pay even though we know that the recipient of our cash will evade tax.


It's been pointed out already on this thread that:
1. It's up to the trades person to declare their income and pay their taxes.
2. Cash payments do not automatically mean tax evasion.

Did you not read this points?


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## Shawady (14 May 2010)

csirl said:


> Tips are taxable and should be recorded as bonuses on payslips.


 
In my experience tips are put into a jar and shared out at the end of the night.
Does this mean there is potentially a lot of undeclared income in the catering sector?


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## csirl (14 May 2010)

> Yes fair enough, but in my examples a discount or cash price etc was never sought or discussed - it was just the price I was given. Would any private individual seriously then turn around and demand a VAT invoice instead?


 
The only people who require a VAT invoice are those who are eligible to claim the VAT back. This would not apply to the vast majority situations where a private individual hires a tradesman. (A lot put the VAT amount on the invoice, but there is no requirement to do so). Ordinary individuals do not get VAT invoices for purchasing other services e.g. hairdressing, GP fees, dentist fees etc. etc. It is assumed that the price on the receipt is inclusive of VAT if it is not specifically stated. 

Paying in cash is nothing to do with whether or not a trademan is doing a nixer. Who among us would be comfortable giving a credit card number/details to a self employed person you've never met? I wouldnt. How many tradesmen even have the facility to take credit cards? The reality is that the vast majority of such jobs are paid in cash for pure practical reasons. If a customer asks a price for a job, it is assumed that the price is inclusive of everything - it is not the customers responsibility to sort out the tradesmans tax affairs. If I pay in cash, I expect the tradesman to record it in his accounts and pay the appropriate taxation. Just because you pay in cash, it doesnt mean that no tax applies.


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## csirl (14 May 2010)

Shawady said:


> In my experience tips are put into a jar and shared out at the end of the night.
> Does this mean there is potentially a lot of undeclared income in the catering sector?


 
Possibly.

Some restaurants lodge them with the nights takings and do pay them net of tax to their employees.


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## MrMan (14 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> It's been pointed out already on this thread that:
> 1. It's up to the trades person to declare their income and pay their taxes.
> 2. Cash payments do not automatically mean tax evasion.
> 
> Did you not read this points?


 
It hasn't been pointed out, it's just your opinion.

Your opinon follows this scenario right? A tradesman offers you a great price, so great in fact you wonder how its worth his while, well then its great for you and its his business to comply with the law not yours. If you follow that logic then if you go down to your electrical store to buy a TV that retails at €500, but the guy working there says you can have it for €200 just pay him cash when he drops it into your car (no receipt needed).
To me it smells like something dodgy is going on, but to you it seems you are happy to turn a blind eye on the basis that you paid your money and its up to the guy to put it in the till.

There is a massive cash culture and most of us will admit to partaking in it, I just don't get why people feel the need to absolve themselves from any wrong doing on the defence of ignorance.


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## z107 (14 May 2010)

MrMan - does that mean that all cash payments mean that the recipient will definitely be evading tax? 

Hint: It's a 'yes' or 'no' answer.


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## Complainer (14 May 2010)

Caveat said:


> Selling stuff on ebay is another one.


Difficult to do this in cash - by definition, there is a record of each transaction.


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## RMCF (14 May 2010)

I assume the listing and final fees (if my item sells) I pay to eBay are taxable? 
So they generate some money to the Gov's.


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## Purple (15 May 2010)

MrMan said:


> There is a massive cash culture and most of us will admit to partaking in it, I just don't get why people feel the need to absolve themselves from any wrong doing on the defence of ignorance.



Better put than I could. I'm not saying I'm not part of it either but I find many peoples attitude to those that evade tax on a large scale hypocritical.


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## MrMan (15 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> MrMan - does that mean that all cash payments mean that the recipient will definitely be evading tax?
> 
> Hint: It's a 'yes' or 'no' answer.




I was aiming more towards point no.1, but well done on avoiding the point that actually shows a huge hole in your argument.


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## thedaras (15 May 2010)

Its really simple,if someone gives you a price of say 5.000e to do a particular job,and then say they will do it for 3.000e cash,what exactly do you think they are cutting back on?

To say,its none of my buissness,to say ,its not up to me to enforce them paying tax etc..is another way of saying I know they are evading tax,but Im choosing to ignore that..because Im saving money.

If you recieve stolen goods ,its not just the thief that is guilty,its the reciever also..


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## starlite68 (15 May 2010)

what about those on the dole who have to do nixers just to keep their head above water!


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## z107 (15 May 2010)

> I was aiming more towards point no.1, but well done on avoiding the point that actually shows a huge hole in your argument.



To be very clear:
Point 1.
_It's up to the trades person to declare their income and pay their taxes._

You disagree with this? So you are suggesting that it's not up to the trades person to declare their income and pay their taxes? So whose responsibility is it then?


Point 2.
_Cash payments do not automatically mean tax evasion._

Or is it this you disagree with? So, you are suggesting that people who get paid in cash are going to always evade tax?


Where is the 'hole' in my argument? Which of the above two points are incorrect and why do you think they are?


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## MrMan (16 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> To be very clear:
> (insert by moderator)


 
Point 2 is a statement of fact, that is a simple enough concept that we can all agree upon.

Point 1 however is multi faceted. In any transaction there are a min of 2 parties involved, therefore there are 2 parties that have a responsibility. The vendor who offers a cash price should take care of his tax affairs according to the law. The customer who accepts that this cash price is indeed a very good price should ask for a vat receipt as their responsibilty to the greater good. Like my earlier analogy about bying out of a shop at well below retail and paying outside of the shop, it smacks of breaking the law whilst pleading ignorance.

I am not for a minute taking any holier than thou approach, i'm merely stating that people should stop kidding themselves and accept that a cash price that undercuts all other quotes by some way is generally a sign that the state coffers will not benefit from the transaction. You say 'not my problem' I say your view is skewed.


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## starlite68 (16 May 2010)

why would you ask for a vat receipt unless you can claim vat back...most people can not!


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## Purple (16 May 2010)

starlite68 said:


> why would you ask for a vat receipt unless you can claim vat back...most people can not!



Don't ask for a VAT receipt. Just get an invoice and pay by cheque.


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## z107 (16 May 2010)

I don't have a cheque book. (Cheques are also soon to be phased out)



> The customer who accepts that this cash price is indeed a very good price should ask for a vat receipt as their responsibilty to the greater good.


Not all tradespeople are registered for VAT.
I pay taxes not for the 'greater good' but because I'm legally obliged to. I will only fulfil my legal obligations. (I do not believe that our taxes are wisely spent)


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## circle (16 May 2010)

csirl said:


> Possibly.
> 
> Some restaurants lodge them with the nights takings and do pay them net of tax to their employees.


 
I think most restaurants route credit card tips through payroll, where they would be taxed, but leave the cash tips to the staff.

Here are the revenue guidelines on tips:
[broken link removed]


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## Ancutza (16 May 2010)

Firstly I'd like to say that I am enormously happy that I no-longer live in Ireland, with all it's current woes, or conduct my business there.

I'm not quite sure where to start with this but I'd give you all two examples from my immediate experience.

(1)  I know of a sole trader who had his bank account blocked for non-payment of VAT.  This happened, I believe, some 12 -18 months ago.  since then the individual in question has reached an agreement with the Revenue to pay small amounts regularly to clear the debt and have their account reinstated.  In the meantime this same individual appears to have been able to feed the family (several kids) and keep a roof over their head without resort to social welfare.  I'm not sure how they've done this but I'd expect that the food on the table has come from nixers since they have/had no other way of accessing money through the business.  I understand they are in substantial arrears on their mortgage though.

The person in question is a trades-person so they have a skill that can be sold for cash to the public.  

Having known the person in question for a number of years and knowing that they are, essentially, moral I'd say that if they have been doing nixers then it wouldn't particularly sit well with them but good people can do bad things when there is a wolf at the door.

Are they, by nature, a thief?  No, but the down-turn hit them hard and needs must.  Can't have a homeless tribe of starving kids hanging out of you can you?

(2)  A few years ago (around 2006) another individual in my ken was pursued , prosecuted and bankrupted by the revenue for supposedly selling goods out the back door in the 70's and 80's.  There was no proof  that they had done it (although they probably had such was the culture of the time).  They were simply presented with an estimated bill by the Revenue and told to disprove it. In doing so the Revenue won a hollow victory indeed.  They succeeded in putting more than 60 people out of a job and onto the dole.  Some of these people have not worked since.  The settlement amounted, with penalties, to a tad over 2 million Euro, money which was most likely squandered by the government. If they didn't squander it then then they have since (probably) on bailing out Anglo and establishing NAMA.

This individual, whilst by no means a 'Robin Hood', did work all his adult life to build a business, employ people and lay the ground work for what was to become the 'Celtic Tiger'.   They did also seek in the late nineties to normalise things with the result that they found himself burnt at the stake!

Would it not have been better to seek some kind of arrangement with the person in question rather than to go for the jugular?

It's easy to moralise about their actions now but there is another side to it all, indifferent of how unpalatable some may find it.


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## MrMan (17 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> I don't have a cheque book. (Cheques are also soon to be phased out)
> 
> 
> Not all tradespeople are registered for VAT.
> I pay taxes not for the 'greater good' but because I'm legally obliged to. I will only fulfil my legal obligations. (I do not believe that our taxes are wisely spent)


 
Ok a receipt then, an invoice, a proof of payment, an official document of sorts to proof a transaction has taken place. If you facilitate the non payment of taxes, then you are part of the problem. Again I don't have any great issue with it, but it just goes to show how easily we can give the ok to 'bending the rules' when it suits ourselves and is a victimless crime of sorts.


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## csirl (17 May 2010)

I dont think the situation with tradespeople is any different to any other business. If you go into a local shop and buy something, you have no proof that the retailer is passing on the VAT to Revenue or paying taxes in respect of their employees or is not underdeclaring their own income. 

The solution to this is in enforcement. People who are caught should go to jail. There should be no differentiation between e.g robbing 500k from the exchequer and robbing 500k from anyone else. My big criticism of the Revenue is that they appear to be more concerned about recoving payments than actually punishing the offence. They need to have more of a balanced approach because without real punishment, there is no incentive to comply.



> what about those on the dole who have to do nixers just to keep their head above water!


 
With the level of social welfare in this country, there is no person on the dole who has to do nixers to keep their head above water.


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## z107 (17 May 2010)

Point 2.
Cash payments do not automatically mean tax evasion.



MrMan said:


> Point 2 is a statement of fact, that is a simple enough concept that we can all agree upon.





MrMan said:


> If you facilitate the non payment of taxes, then you are part of the problem.



So how do you know that the trades person is going to evade tax, just from the method of payment used? How can you be facilitating the non payment of taxes?

As Cirl as pointed out, if you go into a local shop and buy something, you have no proof that the retailer is passing on the VAT to Revenue or paying taxes in respect of their employees or is not under-declaring their own income.


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## Mpsox (17 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> I don't have a cheque book. (Cheques are also soon to be phased out)


 
There are no plans to phase cheques out before 2016 and then it is only if an alternative payment mechanism is in place, in the UK it is scheduled for October 2018


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## starlite68 (17 May 2010)

csirl said:


> With the level of social welfare in this country, there is no person on the dole who has to do nixers to keep their head above water.


 what a totally rubbish statement.....most likely comming from someone lucky enough to be employed!


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## Ancutza (17 May 2010)

> what a totally rubbish statement.....most likely comming from someone  lucky enough to be employed!



Indeed! Unless, of course, they previously also lived in a tent on the side of the road.


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## csirl (17 May 2010)

Dole rates here are much higher than in most developed countries. Compare them with the UK. All of the essentials i.e. rent, food etc are covered by our dole. Holidays, cars and plasma TVs are not essentials.


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## Purple (17 May 2010)

csirl said:


> I dont think the situation with tradespeople is any different to any other business. If you go into a local shop and buy something, you have no proof that the retailer is passing on the VAT to Revenue or paying taxes in respect of their employees or is not underdeclaring their own income.


I agree with the rest of your point but I don't agree that this analogy fits.

If you go into DID electrical (for example) and look at a freezer for €500 and the sales person says "If you go around to the back door and wait for me I'll let you have it for €350 cash" you will have no proof that you are getting the product ex-VAT/TAX but unless you are very naive you will suspect that the transaction is not above board.


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## z107 (17 May 2010)

> If you go into DID electrical (for example) and look at a freezer for €500 and the sales person says "If you go around to the back door and wait for me I'll let you have it for €350 cash" you will have no proof that you are getting the product ex-VAT/TAX but unless you are very naive you will suspect that the transaction is not above board.


There is no evidence one way or another that the transaction is not above board. In some cases, I've known traders that give the impression that goods are knocked off as a sales technique.

The Revenue has a defaulters list. Many customers of these companies would never think that the company wasn't paying tax.

Wasn't Dunnes stores caught out recently with the plastic bag tax? An extreme case, but does this make Dunnes stores customers complicit in tax evasion?


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## starlite68 (17 May 2010)

csirl said:


> Dole rates here are much higher than in most developed countries. .


 as is the cost of living.


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## Purple (17 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> There is no evidence one way or another that the transaction is not above board.



I'm looking at this from a moral perspective. You are looking at it from a legal one. My overall point is that people are happy to near no evil and see no evil when it's them getting the discount but they get up on their high horse when developers and rich business people are doing it. In some cases they give out about the Tony O'Reilly's of this world for not paying tax here even though he had lived and paid tax in another country for years.


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## z107 (17 May 2010)

Well from a purely ethical perspective, I honestly don't care about other people's tax affairs. It really doesn't bother me. I feel indifferent towards them. I feel this way about everyone from the social welfare fraudster to the tax dodging millionaire.

There is one exception to this however, and that is for people, such as TDs, who make the rules. When these people evade tax or make or change laws for their own enrichment or benefit, that makes my blood boil. In this case it doesn't even have to be 'illegal' to enrage me.

When I hear about TDs' multiple pensions or extravagant expenses, I feel angry.


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## MrMan (18 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Well from a purely ethical perspective, I honestly don't care about other people's tax affairs. It really doesn't bother me. I feel indifferent towards them. I feel this way about everyone from the social welfare fraudster to the tax dodging millionaire.
> 
> There is one exception to this however, and that is for people, such as TDs, who make the rules. When these people evade tax or make or change laws for their own enrichment or benefit, that makes my blood boil. In this case it doesn't even have to be 'illegal' to enrage me.
> 
> When I hear about TDs' multiple pensions or extravagant expenses, I feel angry.



Well thats as close to an admission as we are goin to get, but its a start. Everything is fair game as long as your not a rule maker, I've heard it all now.


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## michaelm (18 May 2010)

There have always been, and always will be people who do nixers for cash on which they don't pay tax.  Many, I suspect, do a small percentage of jobs as cash jobs - to supplement their income - while putting the majority of their jobs through their books.  While I would agree that it is not legal to 'bury the VAT' I'd baulk at the suggestion that it is morally wrong.  Legality/illegality does not directly equate to moral/immoral, right/wrong.


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## Purple (18 May 2010)

michaelm said:


> There have always been, and always will be people who do nixers for cash on which they don't pay tax.  Most, I suspect, do a small percentage of jobs as cash jobs - to supplement their income - while putting the majority of their jobs through their books.  While I would agree that it is not legal to 'bury the VAT' I'd baulk at the suggestion that it is morally wrong.  Legality/illegality does not directly equate to moral/immoral, right/wrong.


 So tax evasion is only wrong if you are good at it?


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## z107 (18 May 2010)

The government certainly does not have a monopoly in ethics.
Tax evasion is only legally wrong, not necessarily ethically wrong.


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## callybags (18 May 2010)

Tax evasion is a form of robbery from those who do fulfill their legal obligations and pay taxes that are due.

How can you say this is not necessarily ethically wrong?


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## Sunny (18 May 2010)

Anyone who evades tax but avails themselves of any sort of public services is robbing other citizens. 

It's like saying insurance fraud is legally wrong but not ethically wrong.


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## starlite68 (18 May 2010)

its hard for people to be enthusiastic about paying tax when they see the huge waste of tax payers money that emerge  on nearly a weekly basis in this country.


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## z107 (18 May 2010)

A group of people have acquired power, and they dictate how much tax people should pay. They are not gods or deities, neither are they infallible, they are politicians. In addition, people do not have any choice (legally) but to pay. How they spend our money certainly is questionable.

People who evade tax are not 'robbing other citizens'. Far worse are the politicians that waste, or misappropriate the money that is paid. They are the real thieves.

As a side point, what services am I getting for my taxes anyway? I seem to pay for everything separately, such as health care, roads, bin charges etc, etc...


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## Sunny (18 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> A group of people have acquired power, and they dictate how much tax people should pay. They are not gods or deities, neither are they infallible, they are politicians. In addition, people do not have any choice (legally) but to pay. How they spend our money certainly is questionable.
> 
> People who evade tax are not 'robbing other citizens'. Far worse are the politicians that waste, or misappropriate the money that is paid. They are the real thieves.
> 
> As a side point, what services am I getting for my taxes anyway? I seem to pay for everything separately, such as health care, roads, bin charges etc, etc...


 
Did I miss the coup? How did anyone 'acquire' power? Last time I checked they were elected in democratic elections.

Why are politicians who waste money any worse than the people who don't pay the money in the first place? Both are equally to blame for screwing taxpayers.

As for your third point, it is a ridiculous argument. If you are not happy with where your taxes go, then protest and make your feelings known at the next election. If everyone felt the same as you and decided not to pay tax, where would we be? No hospitals, schools, social welfare, guards. No public transport. No prisions to hold the criminals. No social services. No help for the vunerable. No rubbish collection on the streets. Do you really need me to go on?


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## michaelm (18 May 2010)

Purple said:


> So tax evasion is only wrong if you are good at it?


I don't think it's necessarily wrong, just illegal.  If one does it and is caught then there are legal consequences, fair enough.  

If one of my kids puts a ball through a window and I can't afford to have it replaced bar getting it done as a nixer, I accept that that may be illegal and I may be complicit in tax evasion.  I don't necessarily accept that that it is morally wrong and that I am a thief and should face court.

If someone of means, on the advise of their tax accountant, becomes domicil in another jurisdiction ahead of a multi million euro windfall, that would be tax avoidance.  Entirely legal but not, IMHO, necessarily right.


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## z107 (18 May 2010)

> Did I miss the coup? How did anyone 'acquire' power? Last time I checked they were elected in democratic elections.



Irish elections are a farce.

They are nothing more than a popularity contest designed to give people the impression they have a choice. Ireland is always going to be governed by some combination of fianna fail, labour or fine gael. The politicians are chosen by one of the following criteria:
- Outcome of the civil war and who the voter's family traditionally votes for
- The TD that is perceived to get the most locally (parish pump politics aka 'buying' votes)
- Who people think will win. People like to back a winner.
- Whoever spent the most on their campaign and has the nicest posters.
(Probably in that order)

In addition a huge proportion of people do not vote at all. 



> Why are politicians who waste money any worse than the people who don't pay the money in the first place? Both are equally to blame for screwing taxpayers.


The politicians are the ones that make the rules. They are far more to blame for screwing the taxpayer.


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## z107 (18 May 2010)

> If everyone felt the same as you and decided not to pay tax, where would we be? No hospitals, schools, social welfare, guards. No public transport. No prisions to hold the criminals. No social services. No help for the vunerable. No rubbish collection on the streets.


We're probably going to end up with that anyway, once the government has finished bailing out the banks.


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## Purple (18 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> A group of people have acquired power, and they dictate how much tax people should pay. They are not gods or deities, neither are they infallible, they are politicians. In addition, people do not have any choice (legally) but to pay. How they spend our money certainly is questionable.


 Democracy is not perfect but any system of government would require taxation so the above argument is specious.



umop3p!sdn said:


> People who evade tax are not 'robbing other citizens'.


 Yes they are, that’s exactly what they are doing. 


umop3p!sdn said:


> Far worse are the politicians that waste, or misappropriate the money that is paid.


 I agree but the latter does not excuse the former.



umop3p!sdn said:


> As a side point, what services am I getting for my taxes anyway? I seem to pay for everything separately, such as health care, roads, bin charges etc, etc...


 Roads, infrastructure, police, defence forces, fire service, street lighting, traffic management, parks, hospitals, schools, universities, judicial system, museums, art galleries, the Civil Service, etc etc


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## z107 (18 May 2010)

> Democracy is not perfect but any system of government would require taxation so the above argument is specious.


A dictatorship isn't perfect either.
If I'm being forced to pay taxes, I want to do it in a fair system, not a corrupt banana republic style system.



> Yes they are, that’s exactly what they are doing.


No they're not.



> Roads, infrastructure, police, defence forces, fire service, street lighting, traffic management, parks, hospitals, schools, universities, judicial system, museums, art galleries, the Civil Service, etc etc


I'd like to point out that successive Irish governments have gradually eroded our infrastucture. We started off a hundred years ago with an extensive national rail network, and a tram system for Dublin.

Much of what you have posted I would have to pay for separately. If I go to hospital, I pay, if I call a fire engine, I pay, I pay my phone bill and internet bill, I paid for water connection and sewage and rubbish collection. I pay road tax, and if I want to go to university, well that's not 'free' either. I'm not bothered if we have an army or not, I'd rather we didn't. Are art galaries 'free' to enter? I can't remember the last time I've been to an Irish one. I certainly paid when I was in ones abroad. So the police and civil service I pay for?
How about I just get my own private security guard? It could be cheaper than paying taxes.


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## Purple (18 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> A dictatorship isn't perfect either.
> If I'm being forced to pay taxes, I want to do it in a fair system, not a corrupt banana republic style system.


 Then get involved and try to change things.





umop3p!sdn said:


> I'd like to point out that successive Irish governments have gradually eroded our infrastucture. We started off a hundred years ago with an extensive national rail network, and a tram system for Dublin.
> 
> Much of what you have posted I would have to pay for separately. If I go to hospital, I pay, if I call a fire engine, I pay, I pay my phone bill and internet bill, I paid for water connection and sewage and rubbish collection. I pay road tax, and if I want to go to university, well that's not 'free' either. I'm not bothered if we have an army or not, I'd rather we didn't. Are art galaries 'free' to enter? I can't remember the last time I've been to an Irish one. I certainly paid when I was in ones abroad. So the police and civil service I pay for?
> How about I just get my own private security guard? It could be cheaper than paying taxes.


  You don’t cover anywhere near the full cost of any of the things above that you say you pay for. I agree with most of your posts but to be honest I think the ones on this thread are complete nonsense.


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## liaconn (18 May 2010)

If people work full time and pay full tax on their earnings and then, at weekends or in the evening do a couple of extra jobs eg dj-ing at weddings or entertaining at kids' parties because they could do with a bit of extra cash, I am not going to get hot under the collar as to whether they pay tax on it. I would be far more concerned about the people who pay little or no tax at all.


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## orka (18 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> People who evade tax are not 'robbing other citizens'.


 


Purple said:


> Yes they are, that’s exactly what they are doing.


 


umop3p!sdn said:


> No they're not.


Oh yes they are! If you underpay tax by, say, €1,000, that shortfall has to be picked up by other citizens who DO pay their full taxes - maybe not this year, but maybe next year in tax increases. 



umop3p!sdn said:


> Much of what you have posted I would have to pay for separately. If I go to hospital, I pay, if I call a fire engine, I pay, I pay my phone bill and internet bill, I paid for water connection and sewage and rubbish collection. I pay road tax, and if I want to go to university, well that's not 'free' either. I'm not bothered if we have an army or not, I'd rather we didn't. Are art galaries 'free' to enter? I can't remember the last time I've been to an Irish one. I certainly paid when I was in ones abroad. So the police and civil service I pay for?
> How about I just get my own private security guard? It could be cheaper than paying taxes.


As Purple has said, this is absurd in the extreme - you pay nowhere near full cost for these services at point of use.


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## csirl (18 May 2010)

Tax evasion is one of the most unpatriotic things a person can do.

It is the ultimate expression of hatred for your country and your fellow citizens.


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## z107 (18 May 2010)

This thread is asking for people's opinion on people who do nixers and don't pay tax on the income.
Well my opinion is that this pales into insignificance when you look at what is going on with this country right now. 



> Tax evasion is one of the most unpatriotic things a person can do.
> 
> It is the ultimate expression of hatred for your country and your fellow citizens.


I believe what cowan has done, and is in the process of doing, is far, far more unpatriotic. He must really detest the people of this country, in my opinion.

I just read this over on the property pin:
http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=30588
(Links to this article: )
How patriotic is that? - Still think people doing nixers is so important?


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## MrMan (18 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> This thread is asking for people's opinion on people who do nixers and don't pay tax on the income.
> Well my opinion is that this pales into insignificance when you look at what is going on with this country right now.
> 
> 
> ...



Like you said, this thread is about nixers and non tax compliance, so what Brian Cowen does doesn't come into it unless he is doing cash jobs on the side.
Two wrongs don't make a right and an argument of I'm doin less wrong than them doesn't stack up.
There are plenty of other threads and arguments about the govt and their ability to govern.


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## z107 (18 May 2010)

> Like you said, this thread is about nixers and non tax compliance, so what Brian Cowen does doesn't come into it unless he is doing cash jobs on the side.
> Two wrongs don't make a right and an argument of I'm doin less wrong than them doesn't stack up.


What happens to our tax money is intrinsically important. Especially when you are concerned more about ethics than the legal situation.

As for the two wrongs argument, tax non-compliance is legally wrong. I don't regard it as ethically wrong when the whole picture is taken into consideration, but you may think otherwise.

What Brian and Bertie do is of the utmost importance.


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## starlite68 (18 May 2010)

there is really no point looking at this from a moral perspective,that only works if  we lived in a perfect ideal world...we dont and never will, people will always do a few nixers on the quite,or not declare all there cash jobs to the revenue,we are no different to anyone else the world over.....human nature is what it is!


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## MrMan (18 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> What happens to our tax money is intrinsically important. Especially when you are concerned more about ethics than the legal situation.
> 
> As for the two wrongs argument, tax non-compliance is legally wrong. I don't regard it as ethically wrong when the whole picture is taken into consideration, but you may think otherwise.
> 
> What Brian and Bertie do is of the utmost importance.


What happens with our taxes is without a doubt very important, but the issue here is whether or not we at heart cry foul about crime, but accept crimes that suit us. A bit like a white lie is only a small one but it's still a lie.
As regards ethics and legality, thats easy cause it is illegal, but the ethics side of things goes to show in my mind anyway that some people are uncomfortable in accepting that they at times operate outside of the law because it suits them to.


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## MrMan (18 May 2010)

starlite68 said:


> there is really no point looking at this from a moral perspective,that only works if we lived in a perfect ideal world...we dont and never will, people will always do a few nixers on the quite,or not declare all there cash jobs to the revenue,we are no different to anyone else the world over.....human nature is what it is!


 
So if your car door is open and your wallet is inside and seeing as i'm broke my human nature allows me to grab it. It's not an ideal world you're right but goin back to the op, is it a failing in our own society that allows us to accept nixers as the norm? I'm not preaching just teasing out the question.


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## z107 (18 May 2010)

> As regards ethics and legality, thats easy cause it is illegal, but the ethics side of things goes to show in my mind anyway that some people are uncomfortable in accepting that they at times operate outside of the law because it suits them to.


Do you understand the difference between ethics and law? Some things are legal, but not ethical (in some people's view). It's pointless continuing this if you can not make that distinction.


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## Caveat (19 May 2010)

From my POV there is a difference between asking "what's your best prices, cash ?" and simply paying the amount requested - even though the figure may often be eyebrow raisingly 'round'.

The former is actively encouraging non-compliance. I'm not sure excactly what to call the second but as mentioned, it's what I experience all the time. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as such.


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## csirl (19 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Do you understand the difference between ethics and law? Some things are legal, but not ethical (in some people's view). It's pointless continuing this if you can not make that distinction.


 
Can you explain how not paying your way is ethical? How defrauding your fellow citizens is ethical? Regardless of what the law says, there is no doubt that refusing to pay income tax is unethical.

If you really hate this country, then leave.


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## z107 (19 May 2010)

Why not paying taxes isn't stealing from your fellow countrymen, at least under the current leadership.

Let's pretend that €5billion is collected in tax. All this is used to run the country. No money is borrowed.

The government discovers that 10% of taxes are not collected because of people evading tax. They put a new system in place that ensures 100% compliance.

The following year €5.5billion is collected. Guess what happens to the extra money? The government decides to give themselves all pay rises and large pensions.

This is a very simple example, but it illustrates that tax collected has no bearing on how much is needed to actually run the country. A real life example would be to consider what happened during the bubble, and how much public sector pay and costs went up. Consider that our tax money was effectively used not for the benefit of the country, but to keep the current government in power. When this power is forcing people with menaces, to pay taxes - for their own gain, then no, in these circumstances I do not believe that not paying is theft from fellow countrymen.

(Please use you mind to think this through before posting knee-jerk 'no it's not' responses)


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## Complainer (19 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> The following year €5.5billion is collected. Guess what happens to the extra money? The government decides to give themselves all pay rises and large pensions.


That's one possibility. The other possibility is that the extra money goes to provide extra services, e.g. the 200 extra social workers being recruited for childcare services, the extra nurses being recruited for mental health services, the extra inspectors being hired by the EPA etc etc etc.


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## z107 (19 May 2010)

It's not just a possibility - it's what happened during the celtic tiger and bubble.


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## Sunny (19 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> It's not just a possibility - it's what happened during the celtic tiger and bubble.


 
So we didn't get one extra guard, nurse, teacher, special needs assistants, social worker, huge investment in motorway network, investment in public transport, the vunerable in our society didn't see their standard of living increase, people didn't see any cuts in taxation and on and on and on....

I am against people like Brian Cowan rewriting history to suit themselves but I am also against people pretending that Ireland is not better off now than it was before the so called celtic tiger...


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## z107 (19 May 2010)

> I am against people like Brian Cowan rewriting history to suit themselves but I am also against people pretending that Ireland is not better off now than it was before the so called celtic tiger.


This deserves its own thread - Is Ireland better off now than before the Celtic Tiger.
Were we in a better position in 1996? 

Consider what the government _could_ have done with the extra money. Look what Norway does with it's oil money for example. What have we ended up with?
- Huge negative equity
- Massive debt
- Thousand of empty houses and ghost estates
- People emigrating again and unemployment
- Bust banks

We might have had nothing before, now were at minus.
We have motorways and luas. (We had a more extensive tram system 100 years ago, and a rail network).


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## Firefly (19 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> We have motorways and luas.


 
Whatever we have borrowed thus far, we could build a new Luas every 2 weeks with the amount of money we are currently borrowing. i.e. not only are we in a hole, we're still digging away.


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## MrMan (19 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Do you understand the difference between ethics and law? Some things are legal, but not ethical (in some people's view). It's pointless continuing this if you can not make that distinction.


 
Ok for my benefit then lets keep things simple, we both agree that not paying your tax when by law you should be is unlawful right? now we can move to ethics which is the core of this thread. Why do people use arguments like the one you have been using ( govt would only waste the tax) to justify what is basically an unlawful act. 
The law element is to do with the act, the ethics is the justification.


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## Mpsox (19 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> This deserves its own thread - Is Ireland better off now than before the Celtic Tiger.
> Were we in a better position in 1996?
> 
> Consider what the government _could_ have done with the extra money. Look what Norway does with it's oil money for example. What have we ended up with?
> ...


 
Prior to the Celtic Tiger, I was an emigrant in London, with little prospect of a job in Ireland.
As a result of the Celtic Tiger, I got a job at home and have developed my career accordingly. Same goes for a lot of people I know who lived abroad pre the boom years.

All I know is that when I look at my life as a whole, I personally benifited from the Celtic Tiger, regardless of what has happened in the last 2 years


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## Mpsox (19 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Why not paying taxes isn't stealing from your fellow countrymen, at least under the current leadership.
> 
> Let's pretend that €5billion is collected in tax. All this is used to run the country. No money is borrowed.
> 
> ...


 
So the Govt gives them selves a €500m increase in pay and pensions if tax went up that much???. Your arguements would make more sense if you stopped exaggerating.


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## txirimiri (26 May 2010)

I'm late to this discussion but I can not see how anyone can argue that not paying tax or fraudulently claiming social welfare or other state benefits to which you are entitled is anything other than stealing, and stealing from your fellow citizens at that. 

The use that tax money is put to is a different issue. One of the few benefits of the economic crisis is that the public and the media is putting far more pressure on government and public service to be fully accountable in relation to what they are spending and why and to cut out out wasteful and excessive expenditure. As a taxpayer and civil servant, I am delighted about this. Lets hope that this culture of demanding accountability remains if and when the economy ever gets up off its feet again.

Its a pretty simple equation - being a citizen entails rights and responsibilities. Rights to basic services, an efficient public service, decent health care and education, democratic accountability. A responsibility to obey the law (including paying tax) and register protest through democratic means (i,e, if the government is crap, get involved, use the media and the democratic process to get rid of them, don't just sit around whinging about TDs expenses and use their supposed venality as an excuse for undermining and avoiding your responsibilities as a citizen)

Having said that, I believe the govt needs to think again about making it easier to stay within the law in relation to tax. An example: I was recently looking into hiring a childminder. Everyone I know who has a childminder pays cash in hand. Having done some research, I can see why - it is a pretty complex process to have to register as an employer, work out PRSI and tax deductions and pay same over to Revenue if you are not a business person. By way of contrast, I employed a childminder in Spain. It took me half an hour to call into the social security office, register myself as an employer of domestically based staff, formally employ my childminder and set up a direct debit for her PRSI, which was calculated there and then by the social security office staff. Tax liability was not an issue as the market rate for childminding is below the tax threshold, so the Sp govt just assume the person is not liable for tax and leave it at that. Second example: in my research I undercovered the fact that if I pay more than 40 a month to someone for childminding, I am formally their employer and so have the same liability for PRSI, tax calcuation et al as any other employer. This means that the girl who comes on average twice a month to babysit for us for a few hours is avoiding tax and I am acting illegally by not paying PRSI, signing a contract with her et al. That's just silly


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## bogle (26 May 2010)

txirimiri said:


> I'm late to this discussion but I can not see how anyone can argue that not paying tax or fraudulently claiming social welfare or other state benefits to which you are entitled is anything other than stealing, and stealing from your fellow citizens at that.
> 
> The use that tax money is put to is a different issue. One of the few benefits of the economic crisis is that the public and the media is putting far more pressure on government and public service to be fully accountable in relation to what they are spending and why and to cut out out wasteful and excessive expenditure. As a taxpayer and civil servant, I am delighted about this. Lets hope that this culture of demanding accountability remains if and when the economy ever gets up off its feet again.
> 
> ...



Really couldn't argue with any of that. 
Another example of the complexity of the tax system is the tax due on ETFs - on there disposal, on ETF distributions and if the famous eight year rule applies. AAM has loads of threads on this but I'm not sure if anyone has come up with the definitive answer yet!


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## lightswitch (27 May 2010)

umop3p!sdn said:


> This deserves its own thread - Is Ireland better off now than before the Celtic Tiger.
> Were we in a better position in 1996?
> 
> Consider what the government _could_ have done with the extra money. Look what Norway does with it's oil money for example. What have we ended up with?
> ...


 
I agree with all your posts on this so far., would just like to add the following. 

I am a full time paye worker in the private sector so have no option except to let them take what they want from my pay packet and use it as they please!! 

I left school in the mid eighties. There were jobs, shop work, bar work etc if you were stuck for extra income. Now there are no part time jobs available for students in this country compared to then. If anyone knows otherwise please send on details as I know several students looking for work!

The homeless situation has gone bananas, I'm practically tripping over them on the streets of Dublin 2 at this point. Hospital standards have dropped considerably, although the front line staff in my opinion are doing a fantastic job. As for education dont even get me started.

If people want to or have to supplement their income by doing nixers more power to them in my book.   This is nothing compared to NAMA, Anglo, Government pensions / expenses etc.   Its importaint to look at the big picture here.  Where is most of our money going!!


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## Sunny (27 May 2010)

lightswitch said:


> Hospital standards have dropped considerably, although the front line staff in my opinion are doing a fantastic job.


 
Off topic but why do people always say this? Our hospitals are rubbish but our doctors and nurses are the best in the world.....


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## Leo (27 May 2010)

lightswitch said:


> The homeless situation has gone bananas, I'm practically tripping over them on the streets of Dublin 2 at this point.


 
While the homless situation is indeed getting worse, quite a few of those you will see in and around D2 regularly are not actually homeless, there's just good money to be made.


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## csirl (27 May 2010)

Here's another way of looking at it:

If you own a business, and a significant proportion of people dont pay what they owe, then these people are threatening the very existance of your business. If people dont pay, you go bust.

A country is no different. If a significant proportion of the people dont pay what they own in taxes, then the the country is in danger of going bust. Not paying taxes threatens the existance of our country. 

When you consider the above, tax cheats are essentially economic terrorists.


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## Purple (27 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> Off topic but why do people always say this? Our hospitals are rubbish but our doctors and nurses are the best in the world.....



+1. off topic indeed but you are spot on. If they were that good they'd by running things better.


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## lightswitch (27 May 2010)

Purple said:


> +1. off topic indeed but you are spot on. If they were that good they'd by running things better.


 
I said front line staff, they don't actually "run" the hospitals.  And, I am speaking from personal recent experience, otherwise it wouldn't have occured to me to mention it.


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## lightswitch (27 May 2010)

Leo said:


> While the homless situation is indeed getting worse, quite a few of those you will see in and around D2 regularly are not actually homeless, there's just good money to be made.


 
While I dont doubt that there is some of that I do believe that it is the exception.  I base this belief from having regularly taken the time to have conversations with some of these people.  If we were to look at it your way then we have a substantial amount of people on the streets with Oscar winning abilities that are going to waste.  Fair play to the strung out ones who have missing teeth, that takes true dedication


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## Sunny (27 May 2010)

lightswitch said:


> I said front line staff, they don't actually "run" the hospitals. And, I am speaking from personal recent experience, otherwise it wouldn't have occured to me to mention it.


 
It's just funny how everyone says it and yet all the admin and support staff get told that they are money wasting lazy gits. It's almost blasphemy to criticise frontline medical staff. 

My mother recently retired as a nurse and by the end was completely disillusioned with most of her colleagues...


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## lightswitch (27 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> It's just funny how everyone says it and yet all the admin and support staff get told that they are money wasting lazy gits. It's almost blasphemy to criticise frontline medical staff.
> 
> My mother recently retired as a nurse and by the end was completely disillusioned with most of her colleagues...


 
I can only comment on the experience I have had, which has been excellent!
I would not hesitate to criticise them if I had in any way a negitive experience.


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## Latrade (27 May 2010)

Sunny said:


> It's just funny how everyone says it and yet all the admin and support staff get told that they are money wasting lazy gits. It's almost blasphemy to criticise frontline medical staff.
> 
> My mother recently retired as a nurse and by the end was completely disillusioned with most of her colleagues...


 
+1, a large portion of my family are in health care, many have since left not due to the job, but in some cases they couldn't deal with some of the arcane union practices. My sister had the example of a ward being rostered for 4 staff, but 6 turned up for duty. A separate ward was down 2 staff due to "sickness". However, the manager couldn't send the two off the surplus ward to the short ward due to a union agreement and had to go to an agency for two temporary nurses for the short ward. 

So she spent an entire shift with two people who actually did nothing, while fees were paid for two agency nurses who weren't needed. It wasn't a one off.


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## Deiseblue (27 May 2010)

Latrade said:


> +1, a large portion of my family are in health care, many have since left not due to the job, but in some cases they couldn't deal with some of the arcane union practices. My sister had the example of a ward being rostered for 4 staff, but 6 turned up for duty. A separate ward was down 2 staff due to "sickness". However, the manager couldn't send the two off the surplus ward to the short ward due to a union agreement and had to go to an agency for two temporary nurses for the short ward.
> 
> So she spent an entire shift with two people who actually did nothing, while fees were paid for two agency nurses who weren't needed. It wasn't a one off.


 
Surely you mean due to a management/union agreement ?

I do agree that it's a scandalous waste of money , what I can't understand is how if 4 staff were rostered on how come 6 turned up ?

Surely the 2 who were'nt rostered on should simply have been sent home ?


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## Latrade (27 May 2010)

Deiseblue said:


> Surely you mean due to a management/union agreement ?
> 
> I do agree that it's a scandalous waste of money , what I can't understand is how if 4 staff were rostered on how come 6 turned up ?
> 
> Surely the 2 who were'nt rostered on should simply have been sent home ?


 
Well yes, naturally between the two.

I can only state what my sister (and other relatives) have said in that it was sometimes deliberate in order that the hospital had to use the agency nurses. I.e. the agency nurses were also union members and this arrangement was put together to ensure they were used and the system was abused to ensure they were used.


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## Deiseblue (27 May 2010)

Latrade said:


> Well yes, naturally between the two.
> 
> I can only state what my sister (and other relatives) have said in that it was sometimes deliberate in order that the hospital had to use the agency nurses. I.e. the agency nurses were also union members and this arrangement was put together to ensure they were used and the system was abused to ensure they were used.


 
The question still remains unanswered though.

If 4 nurses were rostered to be on and 6 turned up why were the non rostered pair not simply told to leave ?

Particularly as the level of demarcation you describe meant that they would be totally surplus to demand.

If the pair in question were not on the roster I cannot see the basis on which they would be paid , 6 staff on a 4 rostered ward , it would appear to demand connivance on a large scale involving management ,nurses and payroll.


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## Sunny (27 May 2010)

Doubt it was a case that 2 people turned up unrostered. From what I hear, there is often a case that one ward may be short staffed on a particular day and instead of taking staff from other wards that may have excess staff for whatever reason, management was forced to go to outside agencies to bring in staff.


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## Purple (27 May 2010)

lightswitch said:


> I said front line staff, they don't actually "run" the hospitals.  And, I am speaking from personal recent experience, otherwise it wouldn't have occured to me to mention it.



Mrs. Purple worked in Hospitals for a few years and the stories she tells of doctors screwing up and changing the patient notes to cover it up, nurses being rude and/or lazy or more commonly just plain incompetent would make your hair stand on end. It should also be remembered that many of the senior managers are former “front-line” staff themselves. The clerical staff don’t have much input into structural change. I think a large part of the problem is that the people running the health service are doctors and nurses. What the hell do they know about managing a large organisation?


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## csirl (27 May 2010)

> Mrs. Purple worked in Hospitals for a few years and the stories she tells of doctors screwing up and changing the patient notes to cover it up, nurses being rude and/or lazy or more commonly just plain incompetent would make your hair stand on end.


 
I'd a relative in hospital recently. A nurse made quite a significant mistake, though thankfully one with no long term consequences. Relative asked me to check the notes to see what was said (folder kept beside the bed). Incident was recorded incorrectly so as to hide the mistake, so the relative made a point of telling the doctor next time he came around. If notes werent checked by me and relative never spoke up, or assumed that the doctor would find out from the notes, then the doctor would never have known.


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## Purple (27 May 2010)

csirl said:


> I'd a relative in hospital recently. A nurse made quite a significant mistake, though thankfully one with no long term consequences. Relative asked me to check the notes to see what was said (folder kept beside the bed). Incident was recorded incorrectly so as to hide the mistake, so the relative made a point of telling the doctor next time he came around. If notes werent checked by me and relative never spoke up, or assumed that the doctor would find out from the notes, then the doctor would never have known.



The doctor is as likely to change the notes (or doctor them ) as a nurse. There's just as many greedy/ dishonest/ incompetent doctors and nurses are there are bankers, pulmbers, lawyers, teachers or Gardai. People are people, their job doesn't change that.


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## ali (31 May 2010)

I spent most of a week recently in Tallaght Hospital after my mother was admitted as an emergency and I found the staff to be almost universally lacking. 

From the triage nurse who admitted us following a traumatic seizure, without at any stage addressing us, just taking a history from the paramedic crew. To the professor who swept into the room with his minions, prescribed a course of medicine and refused to tell us the side effects (in case my mother started to imagine she had them!) and then told us we were a terrible family ha ha for asking so many questions. And almost everyone in between. 

We had to fight for every grain of information. Some of which was contradictory or incorrect and we had to battle to have diagnostic tests brought forward and prioritised and only when we threatened to transfer her to the Beacon where the tests would have been done on the day of admission.We were discharged without the final test being done and we were told that this could be done as an outpatient. Our appointment: two years hence.

The whole thing was an ordeal and this was a woman with plan E on VHI and 6 adult children fighting her cause. What happens if you are alone, unsupported, elderly and broke?


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## johnd (31 May 2010)

ali said:


> I spent most of a week recently in Tallaght Hospital after my mother was admitted as an emergency and I found the staff to be almost universally lacking.
> 
> From the triage nurse who admitted us following a traumatic seizure, without at any stage addressing us, just taking a history from the paramedic crew. To the professor who swept into the room with his minions, prescribed a course of medicine and refused to tell us the side effects (in case my mother started to imagine she had them!) and then told us we were a terrible family ha ha for asking so many questions. And almost everyone in between.
> 
> ...



You Die!
I agree with your letter. I have never bought into that idea that all nurses are angels and all doctors are saints which seems to be the general view even among the professions themselves.


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## z107 (1 Jun 2010)

The last medical care that I needed, I went abroad for and paid a fraction of the Irish price.


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