# Help needed: Preparing Books for non trading limited company.



## drop-d (13 Dec 2005)

Hi Guys, 

Im really stuck in a pickle, I run a non profit making website for unsigned musicians ( http://www.drop-d.ie ) and my second AR is due the 13th of January.

Thing is we havent spent a penny or earned a penny in the year. Its about promoting peolpe not really about earning.

I've been to a few of the formation agents and they will do it for me but on average the cost is about €350!

On top of that i need to prepare my own books! thing is HOW do i prepare books if there is nothing to go in to them??

Any help would be greatly appreciated as time is running out, and we can hardle afford to pay the filing fee's let alone a fine!

Thanks
Rob


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## ClubMan (13 Dec 2005)

*Re: Need Big Help*

On a more general issue why use a limited company for this operation rather than running it on some other (e.g. sole trader) basis and avoiding the cost and hassle of annual returns and other reporting?


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## drop-d (13 Dec 2005)

*Re: Need Big Help*

Well this is what was advised, dunno! its a music pulication open to liable issues etc! seperate entity etc.
Eventually we will, hopefully, make money by aligning ourselves with a media group, but for the moment + foreseable future we will continue to work on the quality of our publication.


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## ClubMan (13 Dec 2005)

*Re: Need Big Help*

If you haven't earned a penny and consequently don't have the money to cover the accounting/filing charges then it would look like the operation is simply not viable as a limited company. Do you not have any income at all from the artists that use the service or advertisers etc.? What was the original plan for covering reporting/filing and other incidental expenses that might arise during the business year?


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## ivorystraws (13 Dec 2005)

*Re: Need Big Help*

Hi Drop-d,

If you haven't spent a penny or earned a penny in the year, A friend of mine who registered a company for contracting reasons but subsequently became a permanent employee and never used the company has been in the same predicament so I'll try and get some information from him. As far as I can recall, the outcome was that he was fined for filing late but the ARD itself was relatively simple.


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## drop-d (13 Dec 2005)

*Re: Need Big Help*

clubman: the idea is to earn money! tho not just yet. My problem is more the exuberant rates being charged when i have not been earning (i.e. no books to cook! what exactly am i being charged €500) and secondly being asked to prepare my books regardless when i have no info to put into them? (any idea's here?)

ivorystraws: sounds great any  help you could get me would be greatly appreciated


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## ClubMan (13 Dec 2005)

*Re: Need Big Help*

Part of the clearly stated reporting requirements for limited companies is to file annual accounts so that's why you have to do that. As for the fee for preparing them you should shop around. The fact that a company has little or no financial activity in a particular financial year is neither here nor there in relation to the preparation of accounts and the requirement that they be filed. 

Presumably your business plan set aside a budget for running the company during the initial years until it was built up into a money generating operation?


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## drop-d (14 Dec 2005)

*Re: Need Big Help*

Clubman no offense....... but what exactly are you talking about! You have been going on about my business plan, the viability of the venture, corporate law, etc when all i asked is how i will complete my books with nothing to report! and stated i was kinda shocked at the varying prices being quoted.

Money is not an issue for me clubman, value for money however is!

For your ease i have highlight below the key points i need help with (not corporate governance or how to prepare a business plan you might note) please if you are going to reply further, focus on them huh!



			
				drop-d said:
			
		

> Hi Guys,
> 
> Im really stuck in a pickle, I run a non profit making website for unsigned musicians ( http://www.drop-d.ie ) and *my second AR is due the 13th* of January.
> 
> ...


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## ivorystraws (14 Dec 2005)

*Re: Need Big Help*

Hi Drop-d,

As far as creating the books is concerned. You need to create a balance sheet showing 0 in both columns accommpanied by a letter explaining that the company had not traded. This should be signed by the director\secretary and the other company director. This can be confirmed by simply emailing the CRO.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Ivorystraws.


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## ClubMan (14 Dec 2005)

*Re: Need Big Help*



			
				drop-d said:
			
		

> Clubman no offense....... but what exactly are you talking about! You have been going on about my business plan, the viability of the venture, corporate law, etc when all i asked is how i will complete my books with nothing to report! and stated i was kinda shocked at the varying prices being quoted.


I did suggest that you shop around. If you don't want to take my suggestions on board but want to moan about my posts then so be it.



> For your ease i have highlight below the key points i need help with (not corporate governance or how to prepare a business plan you might note) please if you are going to reply further, focus on them huh!


Thanks - I was able to read them the first time around. Good luck with your business. Sounds like you'll need it.


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## ajapale (14 Dec 2005)

Hi drop-d,

Ive expanded the title. Let me know if it does not reflect your question.

aj


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## ubiquitous (14 Dec 2005)

drop-d

You were very badly advised to set up a limited company. You should now get rid of it IMMEDIATELY. You can, in theory, do so by following the relevant steps on the cro.ie website [broken link removed] However this will cost you money (including the cost of an advertisement in a daily national newspaper) and you may have to spend additional money on professional advice unless you are sure what you are doing.

By the way, 350 euro is not at all exhorbitant for the service you describe above. If you miss the 13 January deadline (now less than a month away) you will face costs many times in excess of that figure plus possible hassle from the ODCE www.odce.ie


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## ivorystraws (14 Dec 2005)

Hi Drop-d,

I can obtain a copy of an ARD for you for a company which has not traded. I can have it faxed to you if you require, absolutely no problems. 

Hope this is of some use.

Cheers,
Ivorystraws.


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## drop-d (14 Dec 2005)

hey all,

thanks for the replies, 
ubi: that was an option but i need a ltd for down the line, when i do begin trading.
ivory: that sounds solid to me, any chance you could email it (i sent you my address in pm) tbh i dont use fax.


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## ivorystraws (14 Dec 2005)

Hi Dro-d,

Totally understand your situation and that's no problems, I'll scan it in and send it on along with some CRO recommendations on submission of an ARD for a non-trading company. 

Hope it all works out for you, best of luck.

Cheers,
Ivorystraws.


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## drop-d (14 Dec 2005)

thanks again


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## ubiquitous (15 Dec 2005)

> ubi: that was an option but i need a ltd for down the line, when i do begin trading.



Strange as it seems, it would probably be cheaper and much less hassle for you to get rid of the company now and pay for a new one later than to keep your company 'alive' while inactive.


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## drop-d (15 Dec 2005)

gotcha, but we should see money by march so we'll hold tough.

But ya, bout 600 to wind up, and bout 100 to setup,


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2005)

drop-d said:
			
		

> gotcha, but we should see money by march so we'll hold tough.


If you are expecting income (profits?) imminently then presumably you could get a loan on the basis of this to cover your current running costs?


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## drop-d (15 Dec 2005)

Well thats the thing really,

We have 12 on the ezine team and they all are working for free. (for their own interests...PR student or journalism etc.)

No running costs really, we get all the gig tickets and albums we want, we just write about it.

Current running costs are only a business 2003 hosted site, (i did all the DB's, design, +software my self) + the LTD company associated fees (ARD included) 

Less than a grand for 18 months id say.

Thing is we had plans but we found issues with them at implementation, so we are completely changing our approach + business + primary activity.... it was either that or dissolve.

We started in bricks and mortar - 9 months ago changed to online presense - now we are refocusing to primarily go down a third route whilst still keeping the ezine.

Initial plan was to charge for advertising on our site, charge for listing in our directory, and run promotional events throughout ireland.

We did "earn" in terms of accepting checks, but this was more market research to determine the best approach to earning revenue. (none of the checks were cashed as it was not feasible to continue to put in the associated effort... ROI was in negative relative to time invested)

So the main focus we decided was to focus on the quality of the publication, and look to another source of revenue.

not sure i answered your question? Was there a question?
Am sure i rambled!


oh ya, sorry, no no need for a loan, i would only need 150 to file including the books completed by myself..ala ivorystraws (  )


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2005)

Does the fact that you have now posted about your business strategy/plan, funding etc. mean that your earlier post berating me for discussing same is now redundant?



			
				drop-d said:
			
		

> oh ya, sorry, no no need for a loan, i would only need 150 to file including the books completed by myself..ala ivorystraws (  )


 That sort of contradicts your original comments (my underlining)


> Any help would be greatly appreciated as time is running out, and we can hardle afford to pay the filing fee's let alone a fine!


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## drop-d (15 Dec 2005)

Clubman, i give up!

What do you expect from me? I initiated the thread seeking particular information. Interpert the following posts as you will.

*I *can pay the filing of 150 (I as in myself)
*We* (as in the company) cannot afford the fee's as it has not earned.

What exactly would you have me say now?


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## ClubMan (15 Dec 2005)

drop-d said:
			
		

> Clubman, i give up!


Why? I'm just trying to clarify what you are saying particlularly where what you are saying seems to be contradictory. Feel free to ignore my comments or only read those that suit you but by posting on a public bulletin board you must expect some level of dissection of your comments.



> *I *can pay the filing of 150 (I as in myself)
> *We* (as in the company) cannot afford the fee's as it has not earned.


If an individual foots the bill in this way then presumably it would need to be accounted for in the books?



> What exactly would you have me say now?


Not sure what you mean.


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## drop-d (15 Dec 2005)

Have it your way!
By your way i do in fact mean the useless out of context quotes!



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Why? I'm just trying to clarify what you are saying particlularly where what you are saying seems to be contradictory.


 well the other 3 people seem to get what im saying from the start so i guess that lays the problem of incomprehension on your shoulders not mine!


			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Feel free to ignore my comments or only read those that suit you but by posting on a public bulletin board you must expect some level of dissection of your comments.


im here to get help, others are here to help...your here to dissect, point noted, maybe i should ignore your comments as you suggest. and focus on the people posting that have no issue understanding this thread 



			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> If an individual foots the bill in this way then presumably it would need to be accounted for in the books?


quite concieveably, feel free to bring this issue and my company up with the CRO.


			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> Not sure what you mean.


that seems to have been the issue from the outset.


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## ivorystraws (16 Dec 2005)

Hi Drop-d,

There are many ways of attracting revenue from your online business presence. I have approximately 10 different seperate categories on generating online eBusiness revenue if you'd like me to discuss them with you further. These would help cover your annual costs.

Also, keeping overheads to a minimum is a must for any startup so costs such as Company Formation (€66), .com domain name registration (€5 annually), .ie domin name registration (€39 ex VAT annually), outsourcing Website design etc are a must for any startup so be sure to always get the best deal.


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## drop-d (16 Dec 2005)

That would be something i would very much like to discuss with you also.

Sounds like you have a bit of similar experience?


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2005)

drop-d said:
			
		

> Have it your way!
> By your way i do in fact mean the useless out of context quotes!
> 
> well the other 3 people seem to get what im saying from the start so i guess that lays the problem of incomprehension on your shoulders not mine!
> ...


Ho hum....


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## drop-d (16 Dec 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Ho hum....


 
twiddle-de...


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## ivorystraws (16 Dec 2005)

Well, since it's my own cash being thrown into the business from the ouset, I try to keep a tight rein on the finances so I do a lot of reserch before I make a (recurring) purchase. I try to keep my eBusinesses current, using Web 2.0 services and concepts with maybe some added mashups from other sources.
As far as individual costs are cocerned, I formed my own company so that was €60 + €5 Commissioner of Oaths signature + €1 stamp duty on issued share capital. I sourced the cheapest domain name reseller from the listings on iedr.ie and did a lot of scrummaging for the €5 .com doain name registration (which I use a lot). I used various sites to outsource my web development, graphic design, various architectural engineering designs, supplying vendors etc. There are approximately 110 freelance outsourcing websites on the web, all of them offering ways to reduce costs plus they open up markets for service providers.


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## drop-d (16 Dec 2005)

well im with you on the low cost aspect, but i find the whole web 2.0 concept a bit odd.
Seems, yet again, in order to make any decent money on the web you need a good product from the outset! regardless of web1 or web2.
i just found that that really transpired in terms of page views!
Other "apparant" ways of generating revenue by distributing free "intellectual" services involved heavy investment upfront! how did you get around this? (any chance of having a link to your setup?)


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## ivorystraws (16 Dec 2005)

Well when I'm speaking of online revenue streams, I take it for granted that;
1. The service or product being addressed is a difficult one to solve.
2. The market addressed is large enough.
3. Prospective customers must be interested in the solution.
4. It's a young idea, with few others in the space.
5. There's large entry barriers.

Any other revenue streams are in addition to the core product/service. Relevant Web 2.0 concepts are relatively simple to understand and implement. They also generate recurring site visits from your target market. The following is list of typical Web 2.0 services and concepts which have evolved from Web 1.0;

Web 1.0                             Web 2.0
DoubleClick                     -->     Google AdSense
Ofoto                             -->     Flickr
Akamai                             -->     BitTorrent
mp3.com                     -->     Napster
Britannica Online             -->     Wikipedia
personal websites             -->     blogging
evite                             -->     upcoming.org and EVDB
domain name speculation     -->     search engine optimization
page views                     -->     cost per click
screen scraping             -->     web services
publishing                     -->     participation
content management systems     -->     wikis
directories (taxonomy)             -->     tagging ("folksonomy")
stickiness                     -->     syndication

I'm not sure what exactly you mean when youstate that "generating revenue by distributing free "intellectual" services involved heavy investment upfront!"? For instance, the following few simple ideas require absolutely no investment upfront... only a little know how which may mean doing a little research.
Examples include;
1. Sell advertising space (using opt-in newsletters, search advertising etc)
2. Joint venture/partnership with other websites or newsletter publishers (affiliate programmes)
3. Selling website related merchandise via Cafe Press etc which allows
customers to personalize various items, such as clothing, stationary,
stickers, posters, books, etc.

Sorry, I'm not currently in a position to provide details of my current ebusiness ventures but I will provide as much help and information as needed so feel free to contact me.


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2005)

Web 2.0 just the latest in a long line of [broken link removed] FUD factor dot com buzzwords/catch phrases in my humble opinion.


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## ivorystraws (16 Dec 2005)

Yea but thats only your humble opinion.


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2005)

Thanks for echoing what I had already said in case people missed it.


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## ivorystraws (16 Dec 2005)

Thanks for adding yet another unhelpful post to this thread.


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2005)

ivorystraws said:
			
		

> Thanks for adding yet another unhelpful post to this thread.


Ditto.....


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## ivorystraws (16 Dec 2005)

Don't knock the technology that you definitely don't understand and try to be a little more helpful to new users of this forum. Stick to what you do best i.e. screen scraping the regulatory bodies websites. I'm sure drop-d will echo my sentiments here.


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## drop-d (16 Dec 2005)

ivorystraws said:
			
		

> I'm sure drop-d will echo my sentiments here.


 
Pretty much,

I used to post a lot here a few years ago unedr a different name, it was the best place for advise.

So i need advice and come back and, pretty much get ridiculed......by an admin no less!

But thankfully other people here do in fact "answer about money".

back to web 2.0, dunno if u got it from the same spot but i am fairly familiar with oriellys site http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/news/2005/09/30/what-is-web-20.html same progression as you showed.

My take on w2 is that the information on the site may be the same but the orientation of the site owners have changed....

(in very crude terms)
i consider hotpress web1.0 they have a product (music articles) and charge users for that. they generate about 1 million visits per month
Their orientation is mainly getting visitors to buy their product/service (music articles)
If hot press were to embrace web2.0 they would distribute their articles + article database freely, and presumably get about 10 million visits per month. with web 2.0 their orientation would change in that NOW thier product service is the traffic that comes to their site (a generated market) and this product/service would be sold, not to the visitors, but to third party companies seeking to tap into hotpress's unique market of 10 million visitors... 
like web 1.0 looked at visits web 2.0 looks at pay per click (advertising and product placement.

Those this make sense??

My point is that the rules of supply and demand are both there in terms of sell product to consumer but instead of the readers being the consumer buying "intellectual property" (written articles) the consumer is now a third party company buying advertising to a specific market.  

Sorry, but thats what i meant by intellectual services. i.e. generating revenue by distributing those services means generating decent content people like to come to your site to see, and in terms charging other companies to advertise, in whatever shape to your created market!
a big one for me is ..heinekin or the like, and the bigger the market i create the bigger amount i can charge.

but considering i dont have much time to chase up these third party companies, most ad placement services require you to "buy in" to their product~investment up front.

At the moment i get about 30,000 views p/m, i will need to see that break 200,000 to be really intresting to the main players..i think

but on your point, i have a cafe press account, it didnt prove very effective, and i have a few partner site, and more in negotiation.
selling advertising space, proved not too successful for me however, again i think i need to improve the quality of my articles on my site and increase the traffic first b4 retrying.

hope this clears my earlier post a bit!


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2005)

ivorystraws said:
			
		

> Don't knock the technology that you definitely don't understand and try to be a little more helpful to new users of this forum. Stick to what you do best i.e. screen scraping the regulatory bodies websites. I'm sure drop-d will echo my sentiments here.


 If you read my post carefully you'll see that I didn't knock the technologies - just the buzzword. What makes you so certain that I don't understand the so called _"Web 2.0"_ technologies? All the more ironic an accusation coming from somebody who obviously can't differentiate between manual collation and posting of links and computer driven screen/web scraping. 


			
				drop-d said:
			
		

> So i need advice and come back and, pretty much get ridiculed......by an admin no less!


 Care to point out where exactly I ridiculed you? The only possible example that I can find is this comment prompted by *your *undiplomatic reaction to my attempts to assist with your queries:


			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> drop_d said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 In contrast it seems to me that *you *(oh - and the guy who doesn't understand what screen scraping is) are actually the one doing the ridiculing around here but thankfully I'm not that sensitive to that sort of stuff these days.

It's a pity the 100 character signature limit prevents me from expanding mine to issue a warning/disclaimer to cover the many classes of sensitive _AAM _user that seem to exist.


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## drop-d (16 Dec 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Care to point out where exactly I ridiculed you? The only possible example that I can find is this comment prompted by *your *undiplomatic reaction to my attempts to assist with your queries:....


well you did point out where u ridiculed me, so, that answers that!


			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> In contrast it seems to me that *you *(oh - and the guy who doesn't understand what screen scraping is) are actually the one doing the ridiculing around here but thankfully I'm not that sensitive to that sort of stuff these days.


not ridiculing you, just stating facts as are clearly displayed in this thread!
i would never make assumptions on your personal life based on the sparse information you have provided me on this forum. You on the other hand appear to make many assumptions, to the detriment of others (as you your self ponted out).


			
				ClubMan said:
			
		

> It's a pity the 100 character signature limit prevents me from expanding mine to issue a warning/disclaimer to cover the many classes of sensitive _AAM _user that seem to exist.


the really really weird part is, if you didnt *try *to partake in this thread there would be 2 less *sensitive* individuals here.
So is that us sensitive or you callous?

Look bottom line, i am looking for help and ivory straws is providing it? 
Where is the agro coming from! Certainly not from me? i started this thread with an agenda, seeking help, not to get into an arguement with another user, if i had i would have directed the topic of this thread against "Clubman"


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## ClubMan (16 Dec 2005)

drop-d said:
			
		

> i would never make assumptions on your personal life based on the sparse information you have provided me on this forum. You on the other hand appear to make many assumptions


Where?


> to the detriment of others (as you your self ponted out).


I never pointed out anything of the sort.



> the really really weird part is, if you didnt *try *to partake in this thread there would be 2 less *sensitive* individuals here.
> So is that us sensitive or you callous?





> if i had i would have directed the topic of this thread against "Clubman"


 Eh? What the hell are you on (about)?


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## RainyDay (17 Dec 2005)

I think we've had enough of this. Take it up with each other by private message if you want to continue the discussion.


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## ClubMan (17 Dec 2005)

ivorystraws said:
			
		

> Don't knock the technology that you definitely don't understand


 I'm not alone in treating the term "Web 2.0" with some criticism/skepticism judging by the _Wikipedia _article that I linked to earlier:


> The term *"Web 2.0"* refers to what some people see as a second phase of development of the World Wide Web...
> 
> ...
> 
> However, a consensus upon its exact meaning has not yet been reached. Skeptics argue that the term is essentially meaningless, or that it means whatever its proponents decide that they want it to mean in order to convince the media and investors that they are creating something fundamentally new, rather than continuing to develop and use well-established technologies.


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