# Brenda Power calls Drag Queen He not She: Politicial correctness gone mad?



## johnd (13 Jul 2009)

Yesterday in the Sunday Times there was reaction to Brenda Power's article of the previous week when she referred to gay activist Miss Panti's speech at a Gay Pride parade. The main complaint seemed to be that she referred to Miss Pandi as He rather than She.  Is this another example of politicial correctness gone mad?  Miss Pandi is a drag queen who male name is Rory ( I think)


----------



## mathepac (13 Jul 2009)

Presumably Rory's alter ego is a 'she' (Ms. Panti / Ms. Pandi) and should therefore be referred to in the feminine gender,  while Rory if he has not had a gender alteration operation, is still a 'he'.

This would be consistent with other artistes who have a counter-gender persona e.g. Lilly Savage / Paul O'Grady, Robin Williams / Mrs Doubtfire, Brendan O'Carroll / Mrs Brown, Barry Humphries / Dame Edna Everage, etc.


----------



## rmelly (18 Jul 2009)

mathepac said:


> Presumably Rory's alter ego is a 'she' (Ms. Panti / Ms. Pandi) and should therefore be referred to in the feminine gender, while Rory if he has not had a gender alteration operation, is still a 'he'.
> 
> This would be consistent with other artistes who have a counter-gender persona e.g. Lilly Savage / Paul O'Grady, Robin Williams / Mrs Doubtfire, Brendan O'Carroll / Mrs Brown, Barry Humphries / Dame Edna Everage, etc.


 
Why not stick with what his birth cert say?


----------



## bond-007 (19 Jul 2009)

rmelly said:


> Why not stick with what his birth cert say?


Why?


----------



## MrMan (19 Jul 2009)

jaybird said:


> I can assure you that was not the main complaint about Ms Powers article! The main complaint would be that it was offensive bigoted drivel from start to finish, as was the self-justifying follow up a week later.
> 
> And if you are referring to someone who is wearing a dress, high heels, full make up and is known as Ms or Miss, then the correct pronoun is she. Not rocket science.....


 
If they are known as ms or miss it still doesn't make them a she if in fact they are a he. What's the big deal in calling someone by their correct gender?


----------



## roland (19 Jul 2009)

MrMan said:


> If they are known as ms or miss it still doesn't make them a she if in fact they are a he. What's the big deal in calling someone by their correct gender?


 
There is no big deal.  The OP missed the point by a wide shot in saying that "the main complaint seemed to be that she referred to Miss Pandi as He rather than She".  This is simply not the case.  This is a pointless thread based on something that never happened.


----------



## Graham_07 (19 Jul 2009)

Dame Edna Everage is always referred to as "she". Barry Humphries as "he". They are one and the same. I would refer to each in the gender appropriate to that persona. Same here. Ends.


----------



## MrMan (20 Jul 2009)

jaybird said:


> Whats the big deal in having some manners and calling someone the title they prefer? No-one said he actually becomes a she, but going out of your way to do the opposite of what everyone else does is just rude. Which presumably is the point?


 It could be construed as bad manners but if the person addressing the other is uncomfortable using an incorrect term then it seems only right that they do what seems right for them. It is hardly going out of the way either tbh.


----------



## truthseeker (20 Jul 2009)

MrMan said:


> It could be construed as bad manners but if the person addressing the other is uncomfortable using an incorrect term then it seems only right that they do what seems right for them. It is hardly going out of the way either tbh.


 
I would construe this as bad manners. If I ask someone to refer to me using a particular title then I would expect them to use it. I do not understand why using the title I prefer to be addressed would make someone 'uncomfortable' unless it was profane - which in this case it is not.


----------



## wavejumper (20 Jul 2009)

if you google for the original article you'll find that the article was not about the gender of the speaker but a little rant about homosexuals in general, it seemed quite petty and bigoted.  

I then read another article from the same author and she seemed to be complaining that one of the most annoying thing of the scrapping of the state sponsored cervical screening was that now she would have to get it done privately for her teenage girls; she found this most annoying because now she had to explain to the girls about sex, thus ending their innocence.  

Had it been obligatory for everyone she assumes the girls would not have asked her about it.  Quite a dim woman judging by these two articles.


----------



## MrMan (20 Jul 2009)

jaybird said:


> I disagree. If my title is Ms but that makes you feel uncomfortable you would still be rude in referring to me as Mrs or Ms. Same if my title is Dr and you don't like that, its sort of tough.
> If it makes you uncomfortable to call someone by the title they use and prefer, best action probably would be to not talk to them or about them, thereby solving yourself the problem.


I wouldn't call you Dr unless in fact you were it doesn't make sense. If I wanted to be referred to as Lord would it be rude for people to say otherwise? of course it wouldn't it is just petty to even get worked up slightly by it.


----------



## MrMan (20 Jul 2009)

truthseeker said:


> I would construe this as bad manners. If I ask someone to refer to me using a particular title then I would expect them to use it. I do not understand why using the title I prefer to be addressed would make someone 'uncomfortable' unless it was profane - which in this case it is not.


I don't think I would like anyone expecting me to refer to them in a title of their choosing, they may expect it of their inner circle but for the wider community expectations should be lowered.


----------



## roland (21 Jul 2009)

MrMan said:


> I don't think I would like anyone expecting me to refer to them in a title of their choosing, they may expect it of their inner circle but for the wider community expectations should be lowered.


 
Fair enough Mrs Man.


----------



## truthseeker (21 Jul 2009)

MrMan said:


> I don't think I would like anyone expecting me to refer to them in a title of their choosing, they may expect it of their inner circle but for the wider community expectations should be lowered.


 
I suppose I should have said 'an appropriate title of my choosing' because I assume if I ask you to refer to me as Professor Truthseeker it might be a little strange considering I am not actually a professor.


----------



## MrMan (22 Jul 2009)

roland said:


> Fair enough Mrs Man.


 I see you've failed to grasp my point, but you get points for amusement.


----------



## MrMan (22 Jul 2009)

truthseeker said:


> I suppose I should have said 'an appropriate title of my choosing' because I assume if I ask you to refer to me as Professor Truthseeker it might be a little strange considering I am not actually a professor.


 
Well if you dressed as a professor and pretended to be one it would still be strange to some is my point.


----------



## MrMan (22 Jul 2009)

jaybird said:


> *"I wouldn't call you Dr unless in fact you were it doesn't make sense. If I wanted to be referred to as Lord would it be rude for people to say otherwise? of course it wouldn't it is just petty to even get worked up slightly by it.* " MrsMan.
> 
> But what if I have a doctorate in Philosophy but you are uncomfortable using the term for anyone but a medical doctor? Your discomfort does not negate my referring to myself as Dr Jaybird. If you wanted to create a persona for yourself with the clothes and rigmarole and so on and call yourself Lord, I'll call you the same, its good manners as far as I am concerned. I might privately think you are barking mad, but my manners would preclude me from saying so! And I don't think it is petty. Transgender politics are not petty when you are a campaigner for same, so I don't believe this issue is petty at all.
> 
> ...


 
The fact that anyone could get worked up about having their gender correctly referred to is just a little bit sad imo. I have no problem with a guy dressing up in ladies gear and calling himself Dolly or whatever but i also have no problem with others referring to Dolly as 'Brian' if thats his/her real name. Its just a name. We are all different even those rude people who are happy to say things as they see them rather than how others expect them to see things. You can even change my name to Missman when your done using Mrsman, I wont be offended.


----------



## truthseeker (22 Jul 2009)

MrMan said:


> The fact that anyone could get worked up about having their gender correctly referred to is just a little bit sad imo. I have no problem with a guy dressing up in ladies gear and calling himself Dolly or whatever but i also have no problem with others referring to Dolly as 'Brian' if thats his/her real name. Its just a name. We are all different even those rude people who are happy to say things as they see them rather than how others expect them to see things. You can even change my name to Missman when your done using Mrsman, I wont be offended.


 
You may not mind incorrect gender reference, but the point is that Dolly does mind it. So while you feel no offence is caused by Mrsman, Dolly feels that offence is caused by Brian (while dressed as Dolly). 

How would you feel if co workers repeatedly got your name wrong and even when corrected used the wrong name - would you just accept it and start answering to the wrong name? (A bit like Trigger calling Rodney Dave in Only Fools and Horses). And worse, how would you feel if they started calling you a female name, in front of everyone else, all the time. So suddenly in your normal environment you are no longer MrMan, but are now Mary. Its one thing to do it on a website, but quite another in real life.

Its a matter of self identification when Dolly is dressed as Dolly, if people refer to her as Brian then they are not identifing her as Dolly when she wishes to use that persona. And added into the wrong name, they are addressing her in wrong gender.


----------



## wavejumper (22 Jul 2009)

jaybird said:


> Do you ever stop to think about what other people think or feel about it, and how important it might be to them? Or do you just not care?



I'm betting you a tenner is no on both accounts.


----------



## Purple (22 Jul 2009)

There’s a world of a difference between a transgender and a transvestite. A transgender person is struggling with their gender, a transvestite is a man who wears women’s clothing to create a flamboyant female identity. A cross dresser is different again. What the sexual preference of any of the above may be I do not know but if someone is presenting themselves in a particular persona on a particular day I see no reason not to play along. It’s no big deal to me and it might be a big deal to them. Why cause offence for no good reason?


----------



## lightswitch (22 Jul 2009)

truthseeker said:


> You may not mind incorrect gender reference, but the point is that Dolly does mind it. So while you feel no offence is caused by Mrsman, Dolly feels that offence is caused by Brian (while dressed as Dolly).
> 
> How would you feel if co workers repeatedly got your name wrong and even when corrected used the wrong name - would you just accept it and start answering to the wrong name? (A bit like Trigger calling Rodney Dave in Only Fools and Horses). And worse, how would you feel if they started calling you a female name, in front of everyone else, all the time. So suddenly in your normal environment you are no longer MrMan, but are now Mary. Its one thing to do it on a website, but quite another in real life.
> 
> Its a matter of self identification when Dolly is dressed as Dolly, if people refer to her as Brian then they are not identifing her as Dolly when she wishes to use that persona. And added into the wrong name, they are addressing her in wrong gender.


 
I may be getting your post wrong but are you actually suggesting that if I go into work tomorrow dressed as "Brian" my co-workers should just go along with it?  At best I would be told to cop on.  

Why should we all go along with his little game?  If he wants to dress like a woman that is his choice but he cant expect everyone to just join in and play along.  If he decides next week he wants to be a dog and bark should we all just bark back?


----------



## truthseeker (22 Jul 2009)

lightswitch said:


> I may be getting your post wrong but are you actually suggesting that if I go into work tomorrow dressed as "Brian" my co-workers should just go along with it?  At best I would be told to cop on.



If you had a genuine need to become 'Brian' and you asked people to address you as such, while dressed and living as a man, I would expect people to go along. 



lightswitch said:


> Why should we all go along with his little game?  If he wants to dress like a woman that is his choice but he cant expect everyone to just join in and play along.



Why not?



lightswitch said:


> If he decides next week he wants to be a dog and bark should we all just bark back?



Dont be silly, he isnt asking you to be a dog, just him, if he does that tell him to SIT and STAY - then throw him a treat for being a Good Boy


----------



## roland (22 Jul 2009)

Firstly, the main complaint against Brenda Power's article was NOT that she referred to a drag queen as 'he' rather than 'she'.  It was her righteous soapbox on why homosexuals should, again, be excluded from what she enjoys and her shock and annoyance that these homosexuals had the nerve to be actually offended by that.  That is the issue.  That is the complaint.  This nonsense about the complaint centering on what to call a drag queen is complete red herring and frankly pretty trite.  

As regards how this thread has developed, I suspect people's opposition to being told what title to call someone has more to do with a lack of respect for any man who chooses to wear a dress rather than anything else.  God knows, you don't want to encourage that stuff.


----------



## Purple (22 Jul 2009)

roland said:


> Firstly, the main complaint against Brenda Power's article was NOT that she referred to a drag queen as 'he' rather than 'she'.  It was her righteous soapbox on why homosexuals should, again, be excluded from what she enjoys and her shock and annoyance that these homosexuals had the nerve to be actually offended by that.  That is the issue.  That is the complaint.


 I agree completely.



roland said:


> As regards how this thread has developed, I suspect people's opposition to being told what title to call someone has more to do with a lack of respect for any man who chooses to wear a dress rather than anything else.  God knows, you don't want to encourage that stuff.


Indeed, showing some respect for such people may in some way diminish the manliness of any heterosexual male exposing him as a closet cross-dresser and/or queer. Down with that sort of thing! After all look at all the suffering cross dressers and transvestites have caused; for example...er...


----------



## lightswitch (22 Jul 2009)

So should we take from that Purple that you would be happy to employ a cross dresser, refer to him as he or she depending on what they chose to be on a particular day?  Would you also be happy for them to deal face to face with key clients dressed as a member of the opposite sex............somehow I doubt it.

I don't disrespect them, but I do think they need help rather than pandering to.


----------



## Purple (22 Jul 2009)

lightswitch said:


> So should we take from that Purple that you would be happy to employ a cross dresser, refer to him as he or she depending on what they chose to be on a particular day?  Would you also be happy for them to deal face to face with key clients dressed as a member of the opposite sex............somehow I doubt it.
> 
> I don't disrespect them, but I do think they need help rather than pandering to.



A dress code (no pun intended) is common in many work places so that’s a bit of a red herring.
If I was at a social event or in the local and was introduced to someone who was cross dressing by their female name I would have no problem using it. 
I don’t pretend to understand why some men want to wear women’s clothes but what harm does it do? BTW I also don’t understand why people want to have piercings or tattoos  all over their body but as long as they are not forcing others to do the same thing then it’s none of my business. Tolerance is a wonderful thing.


----------



## Complainer (22 Jul 2009)

lightswitch said:


> Why should we all go along with his little game?


Because for some people, it's not a 'little game'.


lightswitch said:


> but I do think they need help rather than pandering to.


Maybe the help they need is just a little respect, regardless of what outfit they wear?


----------



## johnd (22 Jul 2009)

As I am the person who posed the original question re political correctness my point was that I did not expect the Gay Community to be concerned with political correctness. After Brenda Power's first article was published, in the letters page the following week, the main complaint seems to be that she had refered to Miss Pandi as "he" and not "she". This was considered to be a grevious insult not only to Miss Panti but to the wider Gay Community. Her main arguments were accepted as her opinions and she was judged to be entitled to hold those opinions but she did not have the right to call Miss Pandi "he" That was the point of my question.


----------



## MrMan (23 Jul 2009)

truthseeker said:


> You may not mind incorrect gender reference, but the point is that Dolly does mind it. So while you feel no offence is caused by Mrsman, Dolly feels that offence is caused by Brian (while dressed as Dolly).
> 
> How would you feel if co workers repeatedly got your name wrong and even when corrected used the wrong name - would you just accept it and start answering to the wrong name? (A bit like Trigger calling Rodney Dave in Only Fools and Horses). And worse, how would you feel if they started calling you a female name, in front of everyone else, all the time. So suddenly in your normal environment you are no longer MrMan, but are now Mary. Its one thing to do it on a website, but quite another in real life.
> 
> Its a matter of self identification when Dolly is dressed as Dolly, if people refer to her as Brian then they are not identifing her as Dolly when she wishes to use that persona. And added into the wrong name, they are addressing her in wrong gender.


 
Except it is not incorrect gender reference on the part of the 'rude person', they are in fact telling the truth which seems to create a problem.


----------



## MrMan (23 Jul 2009)

jaybird said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you are not in fact a pre or post op trans-sexual, or transgender, or in any way struggling with your gender identity? You can though presumably appreciate that there is a wider issue for those that are? Its not about "being a bit sad", its about the fact that sex and gender are not the same thing, gender can be argued to be a social construct determined by a lot more that genitalia.
> *I sure people with issues regarding their identity do have struggles with being accepted etc, and I'm sure that they would also therefore not wish to be refered to as a drag queen which is what the person we are talking about apparently is, so it is quite a different matter.*
> 
> Are you deliberately missing the point that the person referred to in the OP is an activist, campaigner, and host of the Pride march? You know full well its about more than a title.
> ...


----------



## MrMan (23 Jul 2009)

wavejumper said:


> I'm betting you a tenner is no on both accounts.


 
Gambling should not be promoted, do you feel threatened by a differing view?


----------



## MrMan (23 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> There’s a world of a difference between a transgender and a transvestite. A transgender person is struggling with their gender, a transvestite is a man who wears women’s clothing to create a flamboyant female identity. A cross dresser is different again. What the sexual preference of any of the above may be I do not know but if someone is presenting themselves in a particular persona on a particular day I see no reason not to play along. It’s no big deal to me and it might be a big deal to them. Why cause offence for no good reason?


 
You see no reason not to play along where as others see no reason to play along. Different viewpoints is all that it is. if people take offence then maybe it is up to them to either ignore what they don't want to hear or accept that not everyone is the same and open their own minds.


----------



## MrMan (23 Jul 2009)

roland said:


> As regards how this thread has developed, I suspect people's opposition to being told what title to call someone has more to do with a lack of respect for any man who chooses to wear a dress rather than anything else. God knows, you don't want to encourage that stuff.


 
That is an attitude that is often taken and smart remarks such as your last line tend to be a crude way of making one argument seem archaic while the enlightened fight on against stiff social stigmas. I beleive the whole topic is a non-issue in that if a man in a dress wants to be referred to as 'she' she/he should realise that not everyone is going to play along (no matter how good they look). I don't see it as people being narrow minded I see it as people taking a completely different mind set.


----------



## MandaC (23 Jul 2009)

In my last workplace, we dealt with a person who had a full transgender operation.  The women in our office were fine with it, but the guys could not deal with it, not by rudeness, but more from embarrassment, I think.


----------



## truthseeker (23 Jul 2009)

MandaC said:


> In my last workplace, we dealt with a person who had a full transgender operation. The women in our office were fine with it, but the guys could not deal with it, not by rudeness, but more from embarrassment, I think.


 
Just out of curiosity, would you have known intuitively (if you werent told) that the person had changed gender?
So if you met them for the first time as Mr (after op) - would you have been any the wiser?

A lot of posts on this thread seem to be 'but the person is really a man dressed as a woman so I want to call him he', but in the case of a full operation you are now in fact physically dealing with a she, so would the same posters feel the same way?


----------



## lightswitch (23 Jul 2009)

Purple said:


> A dress code (no pun intended) is common in many work places so that’s a bit of a red herring.
> If I was at a social event or in the local and was introduced to someone who was cross dressing by their female name I would have no problem using it.
> I don’t pretend to understand why some men want to wear women’s clothes but what harm does it do? BTW I also don’t understand why people want to have piercings or tattoos all over their body but as long as they are not forcing others to do the same thing then it’s none of my business. Tolerance is a wonderful thing.


 
Its not a red herring at all.  There is a dress code but it applies to both sexes so he would have that choice.  Maybe you could confirm if you would be happy to let a client know that either Brian or Molly will be out to see them.  Mind you I think I already know the answer to that one.


----------



## roland (23 Jul 2009)

MandaC said:


> In my last workplace, we dealt with a person who had a full transgender operation. The women in our office were fine with it, but the guys could not deal with it, not by rudeness, but more from embarrassment, I think.


 
It seems to be the case that many men, and indeed many societies led by men, tend to see a blurring of gender identity as a threat.  Unfortunately their reaction to this often manifests itself in ugly ways.  I could never understand what they consider the threat to be, particularly as the person/people they have an issue with are at the same time considered to be weak and vulnerable i.e. non-threatening.


----------



## MandaC (23 Jul 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Just out of curiosity, would you have known intuitively (if you werent told) that the person had changed gender?
> So if you met them for the first time as Mr (after op) - would you have been any the wiser?
> 
> A lot of posts on this thread seem to be 'but the person is really a man dressed as a woman so I want to call him he', but in the case of a full operation you are now in fact physically dealing with a she, so would the same posters feel the same way?



It was a Mr. who became a Ms.   

No, I would not have known she had been born male.


----------



## MrMan (24 Jul 2009)

truthseeker said:


> Just out of curiosity, would you have known intuitively (if you werent told) that the person had changed gender?
> So if you met them for the first time as Mr (after op) - would you have been any the wiser?
> 
> A lot of posts on this thread seem to be 'but the person is really a man dressed as a woman so I want to call him he', but in the case of a full operation you are now in fact physically dealing with a she, so would the same posters feel the same way?


 
If you go through the trouble of an op then you have changed completely, if you simply dress differently it is a different thing altogether. If I dress up as a horse I am still a man. I don't deny that we all have a right to dress as we please, but our own decisions will not influence how others interact with us.


----------



## MrMan (24 Jul 2009)

roland said:


> It seems to be the case that many men, and indeed many societies led by men, tend to see a blurring of gender identity as a threat. Unfortunately their reaction to this often manifests itself in ugly ways. I could never understand what they consider the threat to be, particularly as the person/people they have an issue with are at the same time considered to be weak and vulnerable i.e. non-threatening.


I agree that people often find it difficult to accept that not everyone conforms to the social norms, but the 'threat' is usually that people are outside of their comfort zones. I disagree that it is a male issue as this issue is quite similar to how society can react to goths, punks, hoodies, krusties etc.


----------

