# Poor old Liam Lawlor...



## Dr Moriarty (8 Feb 2005)

Lawlor blow as €2.5m land windfall goes down drain (_Irish Independent_, free subscription required)

Frankly, I was rather surprised to see he was trying to force the developers to use his sewage and drainage system.

I'd have thought it would be stretched far beyond capacity at this stage! :rollin


----------



## ajapale (8 Feb 2005)

> "Castlethorn has no requirement to use any adjacent landowner's services at all," a spokesman for the company said. "There are plenty of other opportunities on offer."



Who decides where the drainage goes? I think in this case LL is correct its not the developer who decides but the local authority engineers.

ajapale


----------



## onekeano (23 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

Poor old Liamo, it never rains but it pours...... now we're going to be hearing all about what a great guy he was!



LIAM LAWLOR, the controversial former Fianna Fail politician, was killed yesterday in a high-speed crash in Moscow in the company of a teenage girl described by police as "likely to be a prostitute", the Sunday Independent can reveal. 

The 61-year-old was travelling from a red-light district towards Moscow with a Ukrainian girl when his hired Mercedes spun out of control at 1am Moscow time. 

A spokesman for the Moscow police department told the Sunday Independent that no other vehicle was involved and that it appeared excessive speed was the main factor in the crash. 

The vehicle, driven by a chauffeur, struck a concrete bollard on the Leningradskoye highway in the suburb of Khimki, which Moscow police said was a well-known pick-up point for prostitutes. 

Mr Lawlor, always a colourful character and regularly described as a "likeable rogue", was in the passenger seat when the collision occurred. 

He and his chauffeur, named as a Mr Sulemann, were killed instantly, while the girl, who was in the back seat of the car, escaped with minor injuries. 

Moscow police yesterday said: "The woman had no passport and said she was not a close friend of the Irish man. She is a girl and it seems they met on the street and it is therefore likely she was a prostitute." 

That the former TD, from Lucan, Dublin, died in the company of a woman likely to be a prostitute will only serve to add to the sense of danger and controversy which always accompanied his entwined political and business careers. 

News of his death caused deep shock in political and business circles throughout Ireland when it emerged at around noon yesterday.At Fianna Fail's Ard Fheis in Killarney, the Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern said he was "shocked" to learn of the untimely death and extended his heartfelt sympathy to Mr Lawlor's wife Hazel, his children, family and friends. 

The Taoiseach said: "Liam was an engaging, witty and a larger-than-life character. He 

ANALYSIS 


was also a man with a keen intellect and strong views that he was never afraid to articulate trenchantly. Outside the rough and tumble of political activity, he was extremely popular with his parliamentary colleagues across thepolitical boards." 

There was no immediate comment from Mr Lawlor's old adversary, Feargus Flood. 

But the Mahon tribunal, of which Mr Justice Flood is a former chairman, is now deprived of one of its most crucial witnesses. Indeed, his death may hasten the end of the tribunal, something which Mr Lawlor's friends were last night wistfully speculating would have amused the former politician. 

In 1999 and 2001, Mr Lawlor served two separate one-week terms of three-month sentences for contempt of court arising out of his dealings with the tribunal. In 2002, he served a month for failure to comply with a tribunal and respond to its requests to disclose documents and information. 

Khimki, from where Mr Lawlor was travelling, is a well-known haunt of prostitutes. Mr Lawlor died on the Leningradskoye highway, which has recently seen mass demonstrations by local residents, students and pensioners to banish the prostitutes who traditionally gather along it at night. 

A police spokesman in Moscow told the Sunday Independent last night: "There was no luggage in the car so it is not the case that the car was coming from the airport. It was coming form the area of Khimki which is known as an area where businessmen pick up women." 

Russia has become a mecca for Irish business figures who have flocked to the former Soviet state to develop multi-million euro property and business ventures. 

Mr Lawlor himself was engaged in various business activities in Prague, in the Czech Republic, and was involved in plans to develop a shopping complex in the city. 

Doing business in Russia can be difficult for outsiders who rely on a network of contacts to make introductions and it is likely that Lawlor had already made contacts there. 

The death of Mr Lawlor, who celebrated his 61st birthday last Wednesday, stunned the world of Irish politics last night and brings to a tragic end the life a man scarred by scandal and disgrace. 

The former TD's three sons, Niall, Shane and Gerald, were on their way home from the United States last night to join Liam Lawlor's wife Hazel and daughter Ciara at the family home in Lucan, west Dublin. 

In a statement last night, the Lawlor family said they were "overwhelmed" by the kind sympathy they have received from home and abroad. 

Friends and neighbours in Lucan expressed disbelief that the former TD had died in Russia in such bizarre circumstances. 

Police in Moscow believe Lawlor's car had travelled to the Moscow suburb of Khimki and was returning to the centre of the Russian capital when the crash happened. 

Mr Lawlor was sitting in the passenger seat of the car while the girl sat alone in the back. "The driver lost control of the car and struck a concrete baton on the right hand side of the road. As a result the driver was killed as was Lawlor, Liam, born 1944." 

Yesterday, Frank Dunlop, the former lobbyist who delivered damning testimony against his erstwhile friend, Mr Lawlor, at the Flood tribunal, was shocked to learn of the TD's death yesterday afternoon. 

He told the Sunday Independent: "I am just totally shocked, absolutely shocked by the news. That life should end so tragically, so far away. I can't imagine what Hazel and the family are going through. I am absolutely tremendously shocked. I don't want to say any more." 

The Taoiseach, Mr Ahern added: "I have known Liam Lawlor since we were both first elected to Dail Eireann in the General Election of 1977. 

"In his youth, Liam was well known as a hurler of some renown and he represented Dublin and Leinster with distinction. He followed the route travelled by a number of many prominent GAA stars and swapped the playing pitches for political life. 

"Liam was elected as a TD for the constituency of Dublin West and during a 25-year career in politics, he was an assiduous worker on behalf of his constituents. In volatile political times in the Eighties, Liam lost his seat on two occasions but each time regained it in the following election. Liam announced his retirement from politics prior to the General Election in 2002. 

"At this difficult time, my thoughts are with Hazel and all Liam's family especially his daughter, Ciara, who worked with me during my time as leader of the Opposition." 

The Fine Gael leader, Enda Kenny, expressed his "deepest sympathy" to the family of the former TD. 

"On behalf of the Fine Gael Party, I extend my deepest sympathy to Liam Lawlor's wife Hazel and their children," Mr Kenny said. 

The Tanaiste, Mary Harney said it was with "great regret" that she had learned today of the sudden death. 

"To lose his life in an accident so far from home, represents a terrible tragedy for his family and friends," Ms Harney said. She also expressed her sincere sympathy to Mr Lawlor's widow Hazel and to their four children.


----------



## daltonr (23 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

In fairness, it should be pointed out that RTE is reporting that the family claim the woman was an interpreter who travelled to Russia with him.

I don't know what the truth is, but I wouldn't bet much on the Independant to be the best place to look for it.

I'm sure there will be pleanty who will privately or publically take great delight in this.   I don't take any pleasure in it, but I don't particularly feel saddened in the way you do when some public figures die.

I guess it's hard to have sympathy for any of the people who had a hand in the Mess that was made of Dublin as it expanded.

-Rd


----------



## RainyDay (23 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

Can I suggest we all show some respect for the man's family. Let's leave this discussion for a couple of weeks. If it's really important, it can wait until he's been buried.


----------



## onekeano (23 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

Fair enough Rainy

Roy


----------



## DrMoriarty (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *



			
				daltonr said:
			
		

> I don't know what the truth is, but I wouldn't bet much on the Independant to be the best place to look for it.


Looks like the Sindo fairly jumped the gun on this count - and not for the first time! 

I was never a fan of "Bad Boy" Lawlor's, but I agree that his family deserve a little better. Hope they sue the pants off the newspapers who ran with the teenage prostitute "scoop"...


----------



## ubiquitous (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

On RTE this morning, Charlie Bird (not a friend of the Sindo) blamed what he termed as the "confusion" among the Irish media covering this story on Saturday on unnamed "diplomatic sources" in Moscow for refusing to provide any information regarding the identity of the Ukranian woman in the car, in response to their requests.

It would be impossible for the Lawlor family to sue anyone over this story as there is no such thing as libel of the dead. This is why the Phoenix were able in the 1980s to print a barely credible story that a well-known & recently deceased (at the time) Irish historical/political figure had "had a mistress in every capital city in Europe".


----------



## MOB (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

It would be perfectly possible for the Ukrainian woman to sue for libel;  if she is an interpreter, and if her livelihood depends on getting commissions from foreign business people, then it is obviously the case that the newspaper coverage may well have destroyed her business prospects.    I hope she really is an interpreter, and I hope she sues.   I hope an Irish jury awards mucho moolah to her.  I thought I was hardened to the low standards of our print media, but the Sunday Independent front page was quite shocking.  I didn't read the paper itself - I would never ever buy it - but the front page was quite bad enough of itself .


----------



## CCOVICH (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *



			
				DrMoriarty said:
			
		

> Hope they sue the pants off the newspapers who ran with the teenage prostitute "scoop"...


 
The latest I've read (according to LL's son) is that she is a 32 year old mother of 2.  Pathetic (on the part of the media).


----------



## stobear (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

According to Unison I  just checked now, they seem to have double backed on their initial story and are now carrying the interpretor version.


----------



## ubiquitous (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

The Ukranian woman could only sue successfully for libel if she could show that her reputation had been damaged in the areas within which the newspaper circulated. Given that the lady was not named in the article, that in any event she is hardly well-known here and that the Indo headline referred to a "teenage girl", I doubt if she would have much of a case.


----------



## RainyDay (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

Can I repeat my request to show some respect. If we are unable to discuss this matter with dragging the debate down to the depths, I will close the thread.


----------



## Gabriel (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *



			
				RainyDay said:
			
		

> Can I repeat my request to show some respect. If we are unable to discuss this matter with dragging the debate down to the depths, I will close the thread.




How exactly is this debate being dragged down to the depths? I haven't seen any comment that isn't relevant to what's already been said in the media.

Given that this story is currently running in every major Irish newspaper and on RTE I fail to see why you want to extinguish debate on it here?


----------



## CCOVICH (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *



			
				RainyDay said:
			
		

> Can I repeat my request to show some respect. If we are unable to discuss this matter with dragging the debate down to the depths, I will close the thread.


 
Has anyone dragged it to the depths?  The point that has been made is the media's shameful treatment of the matter.  No-one has said anything disparaging about Mr. Lawlor.


----------



## Magoo (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *



			
				RainyDay said:
			
		

> Can I repeat my request to show some respect. If we are unable to discuss this matter with dragging the debate down to the depths, I will close the thread.


 
Would this be the same respect for which he was famous all his life?

Death doesn't confer sainthood, even temporarily.  Stop trying to impose your own values onto those of us who are less touched by his passing.


----------



## RainyDay (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *

Hi CCOVICH & Gabriel - My ire was directed at Magoo, who posted a comment in pretty bad taste. The rest of the debate is absolutely fine.


----------



## Gabriel (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *



			
				RainyDay said:
			
		

> Hi CCOVICH & Gabriel - My ire was directed at Magoo, who posted a comment in pretty bad taste. The rest of the debate is absolutely fine.



While I didn't see the post you're referring to (so can't really comment on it) I'd happen to agree with Magoo's last posting.


----------



## onekeano (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *



			
				Magoo said:
			
		

> Would this be the same respect for which he was famous all his life?
> 
> Death doesn't confer sainthood, even temporarily.  Stop trying to impose your own values onto those of us who are less touched by his passing.




Have to say I fully agree with this. The hypocrisy of his former political colleagues and even some of the journalists is sickening - "larger than life, gregarious, etc. etc." stinks. Gene Kerrigan seems to be the only only to provide any sort of rational review of Lawlors contributions.

Roy


----------



## Magoo (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *



			
				RainyDay said:
			
		

> The rest of the debate is absolutely fine.


 
Glad it lives up to your exacting standards.


----------



## CCOVICH (24 Oct 2005)

*Re: Poor old Liam Lawlor... *



			
				RainyDay said:
			
		

> Hi CCOVICH & Gabriel - My ire was directed at Magoo, who posted a comment in pretty bad taste. The rest of the debate is absolutely fine.


 
Fair enough, that comment didn't show up when I posted mine.


----------



## ubiquitous (24 Oct 2005)

I thought Gene Kerrigan's article yesterday was an excellent, and not unsympathetic, assessment of Lawlor's career in public life.

Lawlor himself would never have claimed to be a saint, nor was he. On the other hand, for all his many faults, he was never the ogre that some people made him out to be. He was certainly a long way from being the worst politician of our era, and even at his worst, his shenanigans pale into comparision against those of his peers who were (or are??) involved in and/or supported organised campaigns of murder, extortion, gun-running & racketeering on this island.


----------



## extopia (24 Oct 2005)

>>He was certainly a long way from being the worst politician of our era... (etc.)

Talk about damned by faint praise! Many of us had to leave the country to find work while the country was being "run" by politicians like Mr. Lawlor.


----------



## Magoo (24 Oct 2005)

ubiquitous said:
			
		

> even at his worst, his shenanigans pale into comparision against those of his peers who were (or are??) involved in and/or supported organised campaigns of murder, extortion, gun-running & racketeering on this island.


 
And for this we should be grateful? 

The man was a bad, bad egg, whose lack of ethics and regard for the community he was elected to serve impacted on the lives of thousands. My only pity is that by dying, he will never be held accountable for his hideous and corrupt actions.  

If the upside of his existence is that he wasn't as bad as some others, it speaks volumes for the type of person he was.


----------



## RainyDay (24 Oct 2005)

I'm closing this discussion now, & I'll re-open it in a week's time out of simple respect for a grieving family. Please don't try to get round this by opening new threads or adding Lawlor related comments in other threads.


----------



## RainyDay (2 Nov 2005)

Thread re-opened for fair comment


----------



## daltonr (2 Nov 2005)

I don't want to open a discussion about Moderating Decisions, but it really was a bit silly locking this thread. It was balanced and respectful and it's not like the rest of the country wasn't discussing the issue.

We're all adults here. AAM had criticism of Independant Newspapers long before the rest of the Media started hammering them. AAM basically ended up having no discussion on what was a hugely serious issue for the country, The Need for a A Press Council, The right's wrongs of publishing unchecked facts. The rights of family members in cases of posthumus reporting.

Not to mention the right of people who live daily in the reality of bad planning in Dublin to discuss one of the Architects of the Dublin Landscape as we know it.

I'm sure the thread could have been moderated better than your average Sunday Independant Column and could only have helped raise the standard of public discussion about Mr Lawlor.

I suspect the moment is gone now, so I'm not sure if any of these issues will get the discussion they might have gotten last week.

Just my 2c

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan (2 Nov 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> I don't want to open a discussion about Moderating Decisions, but


Why do it yet again so?



> it really was a bit silly locking this thread. It was balanced and respectful and it's not like the rest of the country wasn't discussing the issue.


At least one post that was deleted by a moderator was not and they took the view that the risk of further comments in bad taste was too great to leave the thread open at the time.


----------



## RainyDay (2 Nov 2005)

With all due respect, you didn't see the comment that was deleted & led to my decision to close the thread. In the week that a family was burying a husband/father, I'm just not going to let such comments sit in the public domain, or risk further such comments arising.

If these issues really were important 7 days ago, they are still important now. Let the debate on LL roll on...


----------



## daltonr (2 Nov 2005)

>you didn't see the comment that was deleted

Isn't that the point of moderator's?    Sounds to me like you moderated the thread perfectly before closing it.

Anyway.  Forget it,   As I said I'm not going to argue about it.   I thought it was overkill to lock it.   What's done is done.   I only posted in the hope that in future you might be more reluctant to lock threads like this.  End of Issue.

-Rd


----------



## ClubMan (2 Nov 2005)

daltonr said:
			
		

> As I said I'm not going to argue about it.


Actually you said you didn't want to open a discussion about it but did anyway.


----------



## car (3 Nov 2005)

Rainy was right to lock the thread.
The family were burying their father.  Nothing else needs to be said.


----------



## Magoo (3 Nov 2005)

As the person who made the offending comment, I accept the moderators right to remove it. While I wasn't overcome with grief at Lawlor's passing, I accept that it could have upset those who were.

That said, the thread had resumed and was proceding along the lines of discussing the man's legacy. While not exactly flattering, it represpented the views of those who chose to contribute. To suggest thatthe thread was closed because of the offending comment, therefore, is simply untrue. I suspect their are other factors at play as to why the thread was dropped. 

A question for the moderators - do you regard this site as so important and high profile that the it's something the Lawlor family would have been drawn to in the week they were having? 

And why shouldn't DaltonR (and others) continue to challenge the moderators' actions where they're regarded as being excessive. Surely a right of reply is a fundamental right of any civilised society. DaltonR and others should be entitled to make their feelings known without being shouted down each time with a curt referemnce to the rules. I accept that rules exit for a reason, but it doesn't mean they're always right.


----------



## daltonr (3 Nov 2005)

Magoo,

Just to be fair to Rainyday in this instance, there is no problem with me passing comment on a Moderator's decision. AAM is very good in terms of right to reply. 

All the Mods ask is that they be allowed to moderate the site without having to explain their decision, and I agree with that. Otherwise the site would be nothing but arguments over Mod Decisions.

As I said above I didn't want to get into a discussion of the rights and wrongs of this particular decision, I didn't want Rainyday to explain himself. I just wanted to make the comment so that in future we could possibly leave threads like this open.  It was feedback more than argument,  if that makes sense.

-Rd


----------



## RainyDay (3 Nov 2005)

Hi Magoo - Are you telepathic? Unless you are able to read my mind, I don't see how you can state that "To suggest thatthe thread was closed because of the offending comment, therefore, is simply untrue". Why don't you get your suspicions of other factors up on the table for all to see? 

I accept that it is fairly unlikely, though not impossible that the Lawlor family would have seen the comments on the site. However, that small risk is not worth taking. I had seen other threads about Lawlor over on boards.ie descend into scurrilous abuse with no supporting evidence. 

Let me turn your 'so important & high profile' question around the other direction. Do you regard your ability to post nasty comment on the recently deceased on this little site so important as to be worth the small risk of offending a grieving family?

And if you want a good reason for the general rule as to why we don't discuss moderation decisions, have a look at the Feedback forum over at boards.ie where they get involved in interminable bouts of whinging & moaning about the why's and the wherefore's. We all have better things to do with our time.


----------



## daltonr (3 Nov 2005)

Rainyday, you could have just left it, why did you have to go posting that last post?



> Are you telepathic? Unless you are able to read my mind, I don't see how you can state that "To suggest thatthe thread was closed because of the offending comment, therefore, is simply untrue".


 

Remarks about people being telepathic is just provocative and doesn't help.

-Rd


----------



## RainyDay (3 Nov 2005)

Hi RD - Thanks for proving exactly why we don't get into discussion of moderator decisions. It inevitably descends into this kind of farce. Maybe my response was intemperate, but I take some offence at being told (incorrectly) what is going on inside my own head. 

So before it goes any further, I'm closing the thread (again).


----------

