# I minded my mother; her home left to my brother. Can I challenge it?



## rachel.1

Hello, I'm looking for a good inheritance solicitor and you people seem to know what you are talking about! I just joined to ask this question so I hope I'm posting in the right place...

My mother died recently and my father died a good few years ago. I've been living with my mam for a few years now because she wasn't well and we didn't want to put her in a home. I'm after finding out that she's left the house and land to my brother. She did give me some money in the will but I've rented out my house so I won't have anywhere to live now...I dread the thought of a family fight but a friend told me I might be able to challenge the will in court and I do think I'm entitled to more.

I googled "inheritance solicitor ireland" just there and wondered if anybody had experience of these solicitors? Has anybody used the contact law service (the last one)? Does anybody how much this thing will cost me? 

It won't let me post urls but the names are:

njbutler - wills
pjf - children's inheritance
probate - inheritance
taylorbuchalter - wills/probate
andersongallagher - estate planning etc 
contact law - inheritance 



Thanks very much I really appreciate the help!

Rachel


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## mf1

Most solicitors offices would be able to handle that query. 

Big issue is when was the will made? Before or after you moved home? And have you discussed this with your brother? What are his views? 

Is there a suggestion that he somehow compelled your mother to provide for him? 

I suggest you find yourself a good, local, recommended general practice  solicitor(s) and seek their advice. 

mf


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## Brendan Burgess

mf1 said:


> Big issue is when was the will made? Before or after you moved home?



Hi mf

What are the implications of this?   

If a daughter moves in with her mother to mind her, do they need to have some written agreement on the house or the will?


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## STEINER

rachel.1 said:


> Hello, I'm looking for a good inheritance solicitor and you people seem to know what you are talking about! I just joined to ask this question so I hope I'm posting in the right place...
> 
> My mother died recently and my father died a good few years ago. I've been living with my mam for a few years now because she wasn't well and we didn't want to put her in a home. I'm after finding out that she's left the house and land to my brother. She did give me some money in the will but I've rented out my house so I won't have anywhere to live now...I dread the thought of a family fight but a friend told me I might be able to challenge the will in court and I do think I'm entitled to more.
> 
> I googled "inheritance solicitor ireland" just there and wondered if anybody had experience of these solicitors? Has anybody used the contact law service (the last one)? Does anybody how much this thing will cost me?
> 
> It won't let me post urls but the names are:
> 
> njbutler - wills
> pjf - children's inheritance
> probate - inheritance
> taylorbuchalter - wills/probate
> andersongallagher - estate planning etc
> contact law - inheritance
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks very much I really appreciate the help!
> 
> Rachel



Sorry about your recent bereavement.  By all means seek legal advice.

Wills can be unfair, but ultimately your mother willed her house and property to your brother, that is what she wanted.


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## wbbs

You can give your tenants notice if you need to move back into the house yourself (I think!).   Your brother is hardly likely to need you to move out immediately, is he likely to sell it or is he moving in?


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## mf1

"If a daughter moves in with her mother to mind her, do they need to have some written agreement on the house or the will? "

All depends on the family! If daughter is being "enticed" back or has some expectation (as seems to be the case here) you'd expect some form of agreement or provision. 

My point was : was there an understanding or a pre-existing will which provided for the daughter? And is there an allegation that the brother somehow exerted influence  on the mother to provide for him after daughter had moved home? 

It is all down to the specifics of the individual case. There is no automatic entitlement for offspring to be provided for by their  parents. Even if they do move back home.

mf


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## Brendan Burgess

> There is no  automatic entitlement for offspring to be provided for by their   parents. Even if they do move back home.



That is the key point which I thought needed clarifying.


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## hastalavista

Op, just to add to what has been said already
re your comments
1: a friend told me I might be able to challenge the will in court 
and
2: I do think I'm entitled to more. { already made clear that there is no entitlement.]

Re 1 yes you can if you have the money to fund the case because you must assume you will have to pay the costs.

The usual basis for this is section 117 of the succession act 1965
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie:80/1965/en/act/pub/0027/sec0117.html#sec117

The fact that you have been left some money in the will means that the more usual basis for a successful challenge is that a child has been left nothing and the others got something is not available here.

Have just closed a case where the challenge was successful, because the child was left nothing and the others got something.

The costs can be prohibitive in such work: the executors of the will will pay their legal costs out of the estate so the estate is diminished by these costs. The case I referred to above the rate was charged at 450 euro an hour plus VAT

In relation to your own costs, you will see that even if u win under a 117 action, getting your costs is at the discretion of the courts.

Engaging a solicitor without having some recommendations/prior knowledge can be fraught at best.

I would think long and hard about it: look at what you got and look at value of estate and budget maybe 20-30k in legals for the action and see where it leave you.

Is there CASH to pay these fees or will the land/house need to be sold to fund such work

The duress route will be difficult to prove, however this will not stop someone running up a sizable legal bill just to tick your box that you tried to address your feeling of being aggrieved.

Don't get me wrong here: I was 100% disinherited so I know all about it.

I explored the options and I just walked away and got on with living: this stuff can eat you away and they can run for years.

If there is cash, try mediation with your brother.

Hope this helps


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## Brendan Burgess

> the executors of the will will pay their legal costs out of the estate so the estate is diminished by these costs.



Say that the mother left everything to the son and the daughter felt aggrieved and takes legal action. 

The daughter wins the case and her costs and the court orders that the estate is split 50/50. 

The estate was €300k.  The costs are €200k.  The executors pay the €200k and the brother and sister get €50k each. 

If the daughter loses her case and costs are awarded against her, she has to pay €200k. 

So she is risking €200k to gain €50k, a very poor trade-off. 

So unless the amounts are huge, the case is fairly certain and the challenger is wealthy, there is little point in challenging a will? 

What is the alternative?  The daughter can threaten to challenge the will?  Presumably the executor has to follow the actual will. He can't vary it to avoid the legal challenge? Can the executor vary it with the agreement of the son? 

Brendan


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## hastalavista

+1 on the above.
The other angle is that the some of the beneficiaries may sue the executors if they think some of their work, including the sort of legal stuff referred to above, is 'offside' in some way.

This requires even a bigger pot which diminishes even quicker....


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## Vanilla

It is scaremongering to even suggest probate costs would be 200k in anything but the most unusual case.

OP- get some legal advice pertinant to your situation. An initial consultation with a solicitor will cost very little.

Of the solicitors you have mentioned, I know njbutler- he is Neil Butler in Thurles and is an excellent solicitor. I would highly recommend him.


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## Brendan Burgess

> It is scaremongering to even suggest probate costs would be 200k in anything but the most unusual case.



Hi Vanilla. I wasn't talking about probate costs. I was talking about the cost of challenging a will in the High Court. Around €100k for each side. I may have the estimate wrong, but I was not scaremongering. 

I know of only one direct case where it happened. It went on for ages. There were all sorts of court hearings, investigations and Senior Counsel involved. The estate was probably around €5m and I remember that the beneficiary was very frustrated because he felt that "his" money was being run down by the legal action. I think that it was eventually settled and the legal costs were a lot more than €200k.  But maybe a more straightforward challenge would  not cost that much?

I think that he may have had separate legal representation from the Executor, so there were three sets of legal teams to be paid.

brendan


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## beffers

OP, 2 questions,  

1. Did your mother make a verbal commitment to leave the house to you, or provide for you in any way due to your living with her and taking care of her? Can you prove this?

2. Was the Will written recently? Was your mother not of sound mind and body when she wrote it? Do you have reason to believe that undue pressure was put on your mother when she was old and senile to write a Will that favoured your brother over you? Can you prove this?

If the answers to the above are Yes and Yes, go for it. As others have said, be aware that you may incur significant legal fees in doing so. The burden of proof will be on you to prove that skullduggery took place. This could significantly eat into any further inheiritance you may get.

If the answers are No, and you want to challenge the Will purely because you think it is unfair or are "entitled" to more, let it go. A parent can leave their property to whomever they choose. (They have a duty of care to provide for minor or handicapped children, but presumably you do no meet those criteria.) You do not have any special legal entitlement to more of your mothers estate just because you took care of her before she died. That may seem very unfair, but that's just how it is. 

Your mothers property was hers to dispose of as she saw fit. Just as yours is when you pass on. If every sibling/child in the land contested every single Will that their parents wrote, just because they felt hard done by, or because one sibling(s) was favoured over another, the law courts would be backed up for years. I don't mean to come across as being cruel. It may seem very unfair especially as you gave up your own home to take care of your mother, but that's the reality.


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## rachel.1

Wow thanks for all this... this area is so complicated, Steiner I take your point about the legal advice, I think I really need to talk to a solicitor. 

Vanilla thanks for that recommendation. I booked an appointment with Patrick Farrells before looking at this this morning, they were the only ones with a page dedicated to my type of case on their website. They seemed on the ball, I've an appointment tomorrow and it costs 100 + Vat, nothing like the 400 + Vat mentioned above. And they said if my case goes ahead they'll take that amount off my final bill. 

I'll let you know how I get on with them, if I'm not impressed I'll try NJ Butler. 

I haven't discussed any of this with my brother, we do get on but it wouldn't take much to cause a fight, that's the last thing I want if I end up abandoning the case anyway. We'll see what this solicitor says but I'm horrified by the costs outlined above, nobody has that much money these days!!

I don't think my brother forced my mother to write anything in her will, she had made it a good few years ago with my dad before he passed away. 

I'll let you all know how I get on, thank you so much for the time you put into those replies!

Rachel


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## irishmoss

If the will was amde out before your father died would that not be void? Hopefully someone here will clarify


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## Vanilla

Brendan Burgess said:


> I know of only one direct case where it happened.
> 
> brendan



Then you should have said that in your post where you referred to costs of 200k- in only one, unusual, lengthy, complicated case. Otherwise, in my opinion, that is scaremongering.

As you can see, the OP will have an initial consultation for €100 plus VAT. It's a long way from there to 200k high court costs.


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## hastalavista

irishmoss said:


> If the will was amde out before your father died would that not be void? Hopefully someone here will clarify



Normally the situation outlined above is the  H and W  ie: parents make wills at the same time and they look like:
H's will say: 
If I die first W gets the lot, however if I die second then the following applies.

W's will say:
If I die first H gets the lot, however if I die second then the following applies.

What is interesting in this case is that _it seems_ daughter's legacy was determined years before.
Is/was daughter married and son not: does son farm land: does son live in what was mothers house?

OP, IMHO you really cant buy legal services based on a web-page.
If as you say, the case goes ahead then you lose all control of the game and they will control the communication with your brother etc.

What you need here is legal advice but not someone to act for you. There is a big big difference.

In the former you pay for advice as you need it, in the latter you have the potential for hugh fees, most of which you wont even know what they are for.


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## Brendan Burgess

Vanilla said:


> Then you should have said that in your post where you referred to costs of 200k- in only one, unusual, lengthy, complicated case. Otherwise, in my opinion, that is scaremongering.
> 
> As you can see, the OP will have an initial consultation for €100 plus VAT. It's a long way from there to 200k high court costs.



Hi Vanilla

What would you think a fair estimate of fees for such a case would be? 

Brendan


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## Vanilla

Cost of an initial consultation- as above- 100 plus VAT.

Cost of a barristers opinion- this depends on the amount of research the barrister must do but anything from 450 plus VAT up to 1200 or so plus VAT for junior counsel, specialising in probate.

Cost of issuing proceedings- a few hundred.

Cost of pleadings at each stage- will be estimated in writing in advance.

The vast majority of cases settle before court, the majority cost no more than a few thousand euro- probably anywhere from 2000 to 6000 right up to the court doors. Naturally SOME cases will cost more, with motions, applications, adjournments etc. Once you get into court, the big fees start. But you will be well warned, and will be many months of correspondence, negotiations, pleadings and advice before you get to this stage. At any stage it is possible to settle/withdraw.

The cost depends on the time involved which therefore depends on each individual case. It is not possible to do a 'one size fits all'. But to even suggest that a normal probate litigation would involve costs of 200k is so daft as to be laughable.


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## rachel.1

Hello all, thanks so much for all your advice. I had my appointment with Patrick J Farrell's yesterday and feel much better about the whole thing. They were lovely and seem to have a lot of experience with my type of case. 

They said it's probably best not to tell people about the whole thing where I can avoid it so I'll wait until everything is over to tell you all the details. A big thanks for all your comments, I felt so much more comfortable going in having an idea what I was dealing with. 

I'm going to try to avoid court if I can, so hopefully I'll never have to think about the huge costs you mentioned above. They did say though that if you win your case, your legal costs are usually paid for out of the estate (although in fairness, that might use up the inheritance in legal fees). I think they don't advise people to go to court if there's not a good chance of success so I'd say the amount of people that pay those huge fees out of their own pockets is probably small. 

Anyway thanks again, you people know so much!!

Rachel


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## hastalavista

Glad you seem happy with the meeting.

Some observations based on what I see on their website and my own experience in this area.
Assuming this is the website for the people you met
http://www.pjf.ie/

I see the following:

[Value For Money
We charge based on the value of our work to you.

Many firms charge based only on the amount of time they spend on your work. 
In this way, the slower they are, the more they charge! ]

The first line suggested their fees are % based on what they 'get for you'

The second  sentence is the norm

The third sentence is not necessarily true.


In relation to the vow of silence implied by 


> They said it's probably best not to tell people about the whole thing where I can avoid it



I add the following from my own experience:

(Son) A feels aggrieved by the distribution of his late mothers assets via her last will and testament. He is left something but he is aggrieved.

He engages solicitor A, on a % fee basis, who tells him not to speak to anyone about the process, especially not his sisters and brother.

Son A tells Solicitor A, in writing, that 25k extra will do the job.

The process goes on for years when by accident he meets the brother in the Aviva at a rugby match and they go for a few scoops during which the brother asks why is A looking for 100K...

The case is now with the law society and the estate has been distributed with Son A getting his 25k from the others.


My last point is re 





> They did say though that if you win your case, your legal costs are usually paid for out of the estate



The act says here
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1965/en/act/pub/0027/sec0117.html#sec117

5) The costs in the proceedings shall be at the discretion of the court.

Best of luck with the project


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## Bronte

rachel.1 said:


> They said it's probably best not to tell people about the whole thing where I can avoid it so I'll wait until everything is over to tell you all the details.
> 
> I'm going to try to avoid court if I can, so hopefully I'll never have to think about the huge costs you mentioned above. They did say though that if you win your case, your legal costs are usually paid for out of the estate (although in fairness, that might use up the inheritance in legal fees).


 
I find the first sentence strange, nothing wrong with posting on here with basic details. 

 Hope you have an absolutely clear idea of the costs, in writing,  that you are aware that while costs are 'normally' taken from the estate that you are nevertheless fully liable.  And that all this will cause bad blood and could eventually cost the estate dearly.  

In relation to your mother basically disinheriting you despite the fact you moved in with her and took care of her, that should serve as a warning to others.  If you are going to take care of elderly relations in the expectation of an inheritance get it in writing,  and make sure all the family know.  And don't trust your siblings nor parents and what they might be up too.


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## rachel.1

Thanks again for the advice guys. I see completely what you're saying hastalavista, although they're not being paid by a percentage of what I get so I don't think that would happen? Also I'm going to try to come to an agreement with my brother so that situation shouldn't happen.. did that happen to you? That's awful! 

It's not a vow of silence so much, just advice to be discreet I suppose... I mean I wouldn't like if my brother was telling everyone about the case, I wouldn't want everyone knowing my business, I probably wouldn't like to see the full details of my story on the internet either told from his point of view...I think it was more about preventing any anger or fights...

Bronte I think you're right about getting things in writing, although I suppose I wouldn't have hated to do that at the time, I didn't really realise I expected the house until I was in the situation where I didn't have it...


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