# Ombudsman to adjudicate on prevailing rate cases "shortly"



## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

Pearse  at Oireachtas Finance Committee 

Have you adjudicated on the prevailing rate issue yet.  Either by mediation or by adjudication. 

Ger Deering
Not yet. But we will be reaching decisions on these shortly. 

Pearse
These are cohorts. What do you mean by "shortly"? Before Xmas? 

Deering.
It should be only a matter of weeks. 

Pearse
What about publication? 

How quickly will you be publishing? 

Deering
They will see the full decision. Hopefully January. 

We have to wait 35 days for them to appeal.

We will put out the decisions quarterly after that.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

That is great news and fair play to Pearse for raising the issue. 

Brendan


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## zxcvbnm (19 Nov 2019)

Wow - so does that mean for any one in the prevailing rate cohort, even if they have not appealed to the ombudsman themselves on this issue, the decision  will apply to them (based on the fact the ombudsman recently said as much as far as I understood?)


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

It's not as simple as that. 

The Ombudsman said today that he would expect the lenders to apply the principles of any decisions to other cases, but he has no power to direct them to do so.

He also said that he brings them to the attention of the Central Bank.

The Central Bank said something similar.

So, I would expect that if the Ombudsman upholds a case e.g. the ptsb prevailing rate issue 

1) ptsb may argue that the finding was due to the specific circumstances of that case and had no wider application
2) The Central Bank might well back up ptsb in this 

So we would have to publicise the decision widely to get everyone to make a complaint on the issue. 

Or ptsb might bite the bullet and just reopen their tracker review. 

or the Central Bank might tell them to do so.

No one knows. 

Brendan


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## zxcvbnm (19 Nov 2019)

Ok. Thanks Brendan. Although surely the ombudsman will try to initially resolve a case  where no unique circumstance apply and has as wide an application as possible.

And I’d like to think that if the ombudsman rules against the banks that the central bank  would feel morally obliged  quick smart to instruct banks to pay on the basis of ombudsman’s decision. But maybe I’m being overly optimistic.

By the way - does he mean all prevailing rate cohorts will be decided by January ?

EDIT Presumabky the central bank does have the authority to make banks pay up should the ombudsman  side with  the cohorts?


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## Johnc6 (19 Nov 2019)

I missed the call unfortunately, was Pearse Doherty more specific or was he talking about all Banks? For example, do you think it includes the KBC customers who started on fixed reverting to Prevailing Variable Rate?


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

I can only repeat what was actually said.

_Pearse at Oireachtas Finance Committee

Have you adjudicated on the prevailing rate issue yet. Either by mediation or by adjudication.

Ger Deering
Not yet. But we will be reaching decisions on these shortly._

And I was taking it down as they spoke.   He did not name any lenders.   So I have no idea whether it is some or all.

I know that at least one AIB case is at the adjudication stage. 

I don't know the status of the others.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

zxcvbnm said:


> Presumabky the central bank does have the authority to make banks pay up should the ombudsman side with the cohorts?



No, it does not have that authority. 

It can encourage and it can threaten, but it can't legally force the banks to redress any customers.

Brendan


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## B26354 (19 Nov 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I can only repeat what was actually said.
> 
> _Pearse at Oireachtas Finance Committee
> 
> ...


Decisions on EBS variable base cases are about to be made in coming weeks too


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## Johnc6 (19 Nov 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> I can only repeat what was actually said.
> 
> _Pearse at Oireachtas Finance Committee
> 
> ...


 Thanks Brendan


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## zxcvbnm (19 Nov 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> No, it does not have that authority.
> 
> It can encourage and it can threaten, but it can't legally force the banks to redress any customers.
> 
> Brendan



Ok. In that case what power does the ombudsman have? I lost an appeal for additional compensation just this week with the tracker panel in relation to properties not involving prevailing rate. I was planning on going to the ombudsman next. Can he make the bank pay out more to me if he sides with me? Or is he equally powerless in that scenario  ?


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

The role of the Ombudsman is to hear individual cases and make adjudications - so that is where you should go.

Alternatively the court could hear your case. 

The Central Bank has no role in individual complaints.  Nor should it have. It pushed its powers to the limit in encouraging the lenders to give trackers or compensation to 40,000 customers but they could all have refused and forced the customers to take them to the Ombudsman or court.

Brendan


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## coolaboola12 (20 Nov 2019)

well i presume if the ombudsman votes in favour of the mortgage holders in the prevailing rate cases that it has and if AIB dont voluntarily resolve the issue for ALL the cohort then its simple a matter of everyone opening a case with the ombudsman and waiting for the same decision again .....

Might take time but if precedent was set then i presume everyone who goes to ombudsman will get same verdict as long as the circumstances are the same


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## Suz2015 (20 Nov 2019)

Hi All, just wondering if anyone has submitted a PTSB Prevailing Rate Case to the Ombudsman?


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Nov 2019)

Good report by Joe Brennan in the Irish Times









						Surge in tracker mortgage decisions expected by ombudsman
					

Ger Deering’s office was dealing with 1,174 tracker complaints at the end of last month




					www.irishtimes.com
				




And Charlie here: 









						Ombudsman told to teach banks who unjustly took tracker mortgages off customers a lesson
					

BANKS that took trackers off their customers unjustly should be taught a lesson by the financial services ombudsman.




					www.independent.ie


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## Suz2015 (30 Dec 2019)

Any update


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## Brendan Burgess (30 Dec 2019)

No. I thought we would have heard before Christmas.

Brendan


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## zxcvbnm (31 Dec 2019)

My take from the ombudsman’s comment was that it would be released in January.


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## Brendan Burgess (31 Dec 2019)

There are a few stages 
1) Issuing the provisional decision to the borrower and the bank - this is private. 
2) Confirming that decision 30 days later 
3) Waiting 35 days for either side to appeal to the High Court 
4) Publishing that decision so that everyone can see it.

I thought that Stage 4) would be in January, so the other stages would have had to be much earlier. 

I have not heard of any provisional decisions being made yet.  If they have not, then publication is, at the very minimum, two months away.

Brendan


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## zxcvbnm (2 Jan 2020)

Ah. Ok. Well surely / hopefully it won’t be too far away given he stated as much last month. 

So is the expectation the bank would  appeal to the high court as per your step 3 should the  decision go against them? Or can we expect them to fall in line with the ombudsman’s decision?


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Jan 2020)

Hi ZX 

I do not know.

It was ptsb's appeal to the Supreme Court which prompted the Central Bank to wake up and take action.  So if AIB loses, they would be very unwise to appeal to the High Court. But banks often act unwisely.

Brendan


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## Magsodf (3 Jan 2020)

If you’re part of the EBS cohort do you just sit tight and hope for the best ?


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Jan 2020)

I would not be sitting back quietly if I were in any group.

I would make contact with others to see if anyone has submitted a well argued case to the Ombudsman or High Court. 

Brendan


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## RealDeal (17 Jan 2020)

What is the likely date for the ombudsman's decision - will he wait until after the election so as not to make it a political election issue? my Appeal decision was from August 15th so can't wait until after election to make appeal top Ombudsman
Are there any suggestions as to what the Ombudsman will decide - any educated guesses based on the delay ?


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## Dpdp01050842 (17 Jan 2020)

The 2019 decisions will be published this month so my guess would be next week. It was Jan 24th last year. From his comments in November the prevailing rate cohort will not be in this group.

At best they will be in q1 and if they are it will likely be mid to end if this year (at best) when they are published. He mentioned updates may be 6 monthly and not quarterly so I’d take that as they won’t be quarterly.

There is no rational link with an election


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## zxcvbnm (17 Jan 2020)

Why did you conclude the aib cohort will not be in the next announcement? My understanding from his comments was they would be included.


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## Dpdp01050842 (17 Jan 2020)

He said in the coming weeks. I have been told coming weeks or coming months by the ombudsman a few times and it’s their way of not committing to a short timeline.


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## Milkof (20 Jan 2020)

I have received an updated letter from the Ombudsman stating that our case has now been assigned a manager..we submitted our complaint in April/May last year so I'm not expecting this to be decided anytime soon....


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## Magsodf (20 Jan 2020)

Milkof said:


> I have received an updated letter from the Ombudsman stating that our case has now been assigned a manager..we submitted our complaint in April/May last year so I'm not expecting this to be decided anytime soon....


Milkof .. do you mind me asking what cohort are you with ? Cheers


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## lally227 (21 Jan 2020)

I was told yesterday by the FSPO office that there would be 15-20 decisions by the end of the month. We are appealing the AIB prevailing rate


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## Milkof (21 Jan 2020)

We're the Prevailing rate. They said they're carrying out the investigation and will put their findings to AIB, said they've no idea how long the process will take.


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## zxcvbnm (21 Jan 2020)

Crikey. That seems completely at odds with what the ombudsman said to the oireachtas before Christmas when he said he expected to have the results out by January.
 I really don’t understand how it takes so long to come to a single decision re the prevailing rate. Surely it’s just one decision - but would get rid of 4,0000 customers in one fell swoop. It’s very frustrating waiting forever - particularly when give public assurances it would be resolved very quickly.


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## Dpdp01050842 (21 Jan 2020)

15 - 20 decisions for just Jan? Or 20 including the 13 flagged in November 2019?

20 new ones in Jan would be great and would mean we would be on target for all to be completed in circa 4 years.

If it was the run rate of 13 in 11 months as mentioned in November it would be really far into the future.


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## Mayoress (21 Jan 2020)

Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate - Tuesday, 19 Nov 2019
					

Tracker Mortgages and Differential Pricing in Insurance: Discussion Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate - Tuesday, 19 Nov 2019



					www.oireachtas.ie
				




This is the link to what the FSPO said back in November.

I’m a little confused as to why their carrying out a investigation, I thought that was for the Central Bank & the FSPO was to adjudicate on each individual case before him.


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## zxcvbnm (21 Jan 2020)

Mayoress said:


> Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate - Tuesday, 19 Nov 2019
> 
> 
> Tracker Mortgages and Differential Pricing in Insurance: Discussion Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach debate - Tuesday, 19 Nov 2019
> ...



I also believe prior to November  the ombudsman said he would  make a call on the prevailing rate and it would apply to all people in that cohort (rather than having to adjudicate in each case individually)


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## TrackerThieves (22 Jan 2020)

Mayoress said:


> I’m a little confused as to why their carrying out a investigation, I thought that was for the Central Bank & the FSPO was to adjudicate on each individual case before him.


misinterpreted this at first, original response edited. agree this is confusing as I thought the central bank decided on the different cohorts and the FSPO was to decide on the individual cases as the central bank does not get involved in individual cases.


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## B26354 (22 Jan 2020)

TrackerThieves said:


> misinterpreted this at first, original response edited. agree this is confusing as I thought the central bank decided on the different cohorts and the FSPO was to decide on the individual cases as the central bank does not get involved in individual cases.


FSPO have power to investigate systemic issues related to individual cases as far as I know.


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## Brendan Burgess (22 Jan 2020)

B26354 said:


> FSPO have power to investigate systemic issues related to individual cases as far as I know.



Not sure what you mean by that. 

If the FSPO sees a number of cases with the same issue, they refer that issue to the Central Bank. 

But the FSPO cannot turn around and say "We find against you in the case of B26354 and please apply this to all other customers affected by the same issue." 

Lightbulb moment:  Maybe we should call on the candidates to change the legislation to give the Ombudsman this power? 

Brendan


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## PFS7979 (30 Jan 2020)

Hi;
May I ask whether "the prevailing rate cases" are one and the same as the "PTSB Discounted Tracker" cohort?

 To recap; PTSB issued mortgages with a 12 month discount margin with "the then current PTSB tracker rate" to apply thereafter.  PTSB proceeded to issue confusing and inaccurate rate options letters, rather than applying a reasonable "undiscounted" rate automatically from year 2 (as was suggested by the Letter of Offer).

I am keen to hear if Ombudsman made adjudication on this or is expected to?

Thanks folks.


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## Mayoress (31 Jan 2020)

@ Brendan, do you think that we will have news today, given that the ombudsman Ger Deering said at the Oireachtas meeting in Nov, that his decisions would be published no later that Jan 2020?


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## Brendan Burgess (31 Jan 2020)

I don't know, but I doubt it. 

Given that no one on Askaboutmoney has reported getting a decision, I doubt that he has issued many decisions.

It seems that it's taking him much longer to finalise the cases than the had thought when he was in front of the Oireachtas Committee. 



Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (31 Jan 2020)

PFS7979 said:


> May I ask whether "the prevailing rate cases" are one and the same as the "PTSB Discounted Tracker" cohort?



Two lenders had prevailing rate issues but they are all different.

1) AIB said that at the end of the fixed rate, the customer will be offered the then prevailing tracker rate. But when the fixed rate ended, AIB did not offer them a tracker rate as "they had withdrawn them."  They have admitted that they should have done and have given €1,000 compensation to 6,000 customers.  Some of these cases have been through the Appeals Process and are now at the Adjudication stage with the Ombudsman. 

There might be a decision on these AIB cases at any time. 

2) PTSB had roughly the same wording in the contract, but they did offer everyone who came off a fixed rate the prevailing rate, which was higher than the SVR. To the best of my knowledge these customers have been deemed by ptsb to be not impacted. They were offered a tracker and they declined it.

2A) Some of the ptsb customers broke out of the fixed rate early and ptsb did not offer them the prevailing tracker rate.  They have now accepted that they should have done, and have given these customers compensation based on the then current tracker rates.  Padraic Kissane has been representing these but I have no idea what stage they are at.  There was talk three years ago of going to the High Court, but I don't think that has happened. I don't know if a complaint has been made to the Ombudsman. 

3) ptsb have the discounted tracker cases as you describe. I understand that at least one of these has been submitted to the Ombudsman but I don't know what stage it is at.

Brendan


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