# North Korea - how lucky are we...



## Firefly (7 Mar 2016)

This made me sad. Even the guards (who you would believe have some of the better jobs going in a socialist regime) looked malnourished.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/photos-from-inside-north-korea-2016-3


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## Gerry Canning (8 Mar 2016)

Not good .

Not socialism , its a gangster type dictatorship.
With any luck it will implode without harming too many.

And yup we have little nuff to whinge about (as per our great leader)


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## thedaddyman (9 Mar 2016)

It's not just a dictatorship, it's almost like a cult

Fascinating article I have to say


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## Purple (15 Mar 2016)

Very interesting Firefly, thanks.


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## thedaddyman (16 Mar 2016)

I see some poor sod of an American tourist has got 15 years in a labour camp for trying to steal a flag in NK


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## Purple (18 Mar 2016)

He got 15 years for stealing a poster.


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## Firefly (29 Mar 2016)

More here - why do so many want to move to the left?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/photos-of-life-in-north-korea-2016-3


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## Purple (29 Mar 2016)

Firefly said:


> More here - why do so many want to move to the left?
> 
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/photos-of-life-in-north-korea-2016-3


In fairness to those on the Left I don't think they are advocating an isolationist police state.
With the Exception of the AAA/PBP and a few lone nutters very few of them are communists.


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## Sunny (29 Mar 2016)

Firefly said:


> More here - why do so many want to move to the left?
> 
> http://uk.businessinsider.com/photos-of-life-in-north-korea-2016-3



Might as well ask why so many wants to move to the right where refugees, immigrants or any other minority group should be exterminated. 

The extremes on both sides are ridiculous.


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## Firefly (29 Mar 2016)

Both fair points. I guess reading Cormac Lucey in the Sunday Times influenced me on how even with good intentions, government intervention usually results in a mess. The post is now on his blog and a very interesting read. http://cormaclucey.blogspot.ie/2016/03/time-we-weeded-out-our-coddled-economy.html


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## Firefly (21 Sep 2016)

28 websites in North Korea. I would love to see the one about recipes!

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...vealed-to-have-just-28-websites-35067680.html


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## Purple (21 Sep 2016)

Firefly said:


> Both fair points. I guess reading Cormac Lucey in the Sunday Times influenced me on how even with good intentions, government intervention usually results in a mess. The post is now on his blog and a very interesting read. http://cormaclucey.blogspot.ie/2016/03/time-we-weeded-out-our-coddled-economy.html


There's about 10 recent threads that could do with that link posted in them.


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## Firefly (8 Feb 2018)

Interesting article here by the New York Times :

_"..the Olympics in Seoul in 1988 ended up being a turning point. Over the past 30 years, the two countries have diverged sharply — economically, politically and culturally.
South Korea rapidly industrialized, growing at one of the fastest rates in the world. The North stagnated.
The South shed its military dictatorship and opened up to the world. The North remained isolated and authoritarian, and endured a devastating famine that killed an estimated 2 million people, according to some estimates."_

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...y.html?rref=collection/timestopic/North Korea


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## odyssey06 (8 Feb 2018)

China has done a great job sorting out its crazy neighbour... they prevented anyone else from sorting North Korea out and now seem content to sit on their hands. They don't seem to feel any responsibility to the citizens of North Korea.


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## Firefly (8 Feb 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> China has done a great job sorting out its crazy neighbour... they prevented anyone else from sorting North Korea out and now seem content to sit on their hands. They don't seem to feel any responsibility to the citizens of North Korea.



I just feel sorry for the people in NK. Rocket Man's sister is going to the Winter Olympics. Surely, somewhere in her heart, when she sees the gulf of a difference between NK & SK, she must say something when she gets home. It's just sad.


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## Purple (8 Feb 2018)

Firefly said:


> I just feel sorry for the people in NK. Rocket Man's sister is going to the Winter Olympics. Surely, somewhere in her heart, when she sees the gulf of a difference between NK & SK, she must say something when she gets home. It's just sad.


Not unless she wants to be executed with a flamethrower or some such thing.


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## Firefly (8 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> Not unless she wants to be executed with a flamethrower or some such thing.



Ah he wouldn't do that would he?


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## Firefly (26 Mar 2018)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...-korean-defectors-who-never-made-it-1.3440596

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/25/world/asia/north-korea-defectors.html


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## TheBigShort (28 Mar 2018)

Trumps proposed meeting with Kim jong could be interesting. Certainly I think in the sphere of international diplomacy, NK has been leading the US a merry dance. First, I did think Jongs comebacks against Trump were much better 'dotard' And although the mud-slinging obviously raised tensions, NK participation in the Winter Olympics coupled with renewed Chinese backing on foot of a commitment to denuclearize is staying one step ahead of the war hawks in the US military.
However, I dont think Trump is interested in NK at all, or the living conditions of its people but rather to use NK as a pawn to cut a trade deal with China.
Interestingly, I had cause to look up a list of countries electricity use per capita as part of the bitcoin discussions

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption

I expected NK to be near rock bottom, surprisingly it is listed 80th in the world for electricity usage with 157 kw on avr per person (Ireland is 65th, with a third of population and 574kw per person).

The most shocking stat was the Gaza Strip - 0.01kw per person on average, the West Bank is 220 kw per person, Israel 835 kw per person.

How can it be permitted or accepted that the population of the Gaza Strip can endure a life without electricity at all?
What sort of regime imposes this primitive standard on anyone - hardly one that has the best interests of the North Koreans at heart?


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## Purple (28 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> The most shocking stat was the Gaza Strip - 0.01kw per person on average, the West Bank is 220 kw per person, Israel 835 kw per person.
> 
> How can it be permitted or accepted that the population of the Gaza Strip can endure a life without electricity at all?
> What sort of regime imposes this primitive standard on anyone - hardly one that has the best interests of the North Koreans at heart?


The crisis is a result of a row between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. See here for details. The data you looked at shows usage from the grid whereas many under developed countries have a high reliance on generators and, increasingly, solar power. 
The reliance on locally generated power (mostly diesel generators) is one of the factors which stymies the economic development of the poorest countries on the planet but I'll stay off that hobby horse and keep this post on topic to your off topic post.


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## TheBigShort (28 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> I'll stay off that hobby horse and keep this post on topic to your off topic post.



Damn! You saw through my not-so subtle deployment of 'whaddaboutery'

Back to NK so, does anyone really think that deploying nuclear warships off the coast of NK is about bringing 'freedom and democracy' to its troubled people?

Or would a military conflict, bringing instability to the region, including mass refugee movements into China and possibly a permanent US military base on the border of China give the US more leverage in future trade discussions, like the oil market for instance?
How would Russia re-act with a US military base on its border? 

I dont think ordinary Koreans, North or South, feature heavily in US military expansionist plans.


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## Purple (29 Mar 2018)

South Korea is a major trading partner of the US as well as a military ally. 
From speaking to a few Korean people over the years they are happy with the US military presence there as they live under the shadow of totalitarian Russia and China as well as their Northern neighbours. The USA is far from perfect but given the other players in the region I'd pick them to have on my side any day of the week. 

The solution, in my opinion, is for China to deploy nuclear weapons in North Korea, offering it the same sort of protection that Germany received from the USA during the Cold War. The result is a secure North Korea with less nuclear proliferation.


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## Firefly (29 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Interestingly, I had cause to look up a list of countries electricity use per capita as part of the bitcoin discussions
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_consumption
> 
> I expected NK to be near rock bottom, surprisingly it is listed 80th in the world for electricity usage with 157 kw on avr per person



Then how do we explain images like this?

NK may be 80th as a country but I am betting the ordinary folk are not real users.....the military is probably using the lion's share....


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## Purple (29 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Back to NK so, does anyone really think that deploying nuclear warships off the coast of NK is about bringing 'freedom and democracy' to its troubled people?


On that specific point; the purpose of the warships is to protect free and democratic people from a totalitarian lunatic whose family have enslaved their own people. I am often critical of US foreign policy but in this case there is a clear distinction between the protagonists.


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## TheBigShort (29 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> South Korea is a major trading partner of the US as well as a military ally.
> From speaking to a few Korean people over the years they are happy with the US military presence there as they live under the shadow of totalitarian Russia and China as well as their Northern neighbours. The USA is far from perfect but given the other players in the region I'd pick them to have on my side any day of the week.
> 
> The solution, in my opinion, is for China to deploy nuclear weapons in North Korea, offering it the same sort of protection that Germany received from the USA during the Cold War. The result is a secure North Korea with less nuclear proliferation.



I agree with all of that (except deployment of chinese weapons) and I think you hit the nail on the head. SK in a major trading partner with US. If it wasnt a major trading partner I dont there would be as much interest in the plight of Koreans, north or south.


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## TheBigShort (29 Mar 2018)

Firefly said:


> Then how do we explain images like this?
> 
> NK may be 80th as a country but I am betting the ordinary folk are not real users.....the military is probably using the lion's share....



You could be right. But the link to the report you attached, with photos, suggest otherwise. Notwithstanding is the probability that limited opportunities are offered to take photos.
Im not for a second suggesting or advocating for the NK regime, merely concious that propaganda works on both sides of the fence.


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## TheBigShort (29 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> On that specific point; the purpose of the warships is to protect free and democratic people from a totalitarian lunatic whose family have enslaved their own people. I am often critical of US foreign policy but in this case there is a clear distinction between the protagonists.



Case in point. In my view, lunatics and their families, are generally incapable of enslaving entire populations over sustained periods of time.


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## Firefly (29 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> You could be right. But the link to the report you attached, with photos, suggest otherwise. Notwithstanding is the probability that limited opportunities are offered to take photos.



Because it's so dark!!!


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## Firefly (29 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Case in point. In my view, lunatics and their families, are generally incapable of enslaving entire populations over sustained periods of time.



I hope you're right. Kim is in Beijing at the moment. Surely he must see the transformation of the Chinese economy and wonder, just wonder, if he's doing the right thing by his people...


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## Conan (29 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Case in point. In my view, lunatics and their families, are generally incapable of enslaving entire populations over sustained periods of time.


Maybe, but there lots of examples of regimes/families who have enslaved/controlled populations for long periods- Mugabe, Saddam, Stalin, Ceaucescu, certain African countries etc. NK is perhaps a stellar example of how bad it can get.


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## TheBigShort (29 Mar 2018)

Firefly said:


> I hope you're right. Kim is in Beijing at the moment. Surely he must see the transformation of the Chinese economy and wonder, just wonder, if he's doing the right thing by his people...



I dont it is as simple as that (or maybe it is?). 
I think S&N Korea harbour intentions of re-unification. But technically they are still at war. Im no expert on the Korean war, but figures of 30% of the population being killed leaves a lasting legacy. 
Economic sanctions dont help either. Kim will rightly point to China as an example of increasing prosperity, all under the centralised command regime of the Chinese Communist Party. In other words, prosperity is attainable with _and_ without direct US interference. 
Also in order to sustain support for the regime, a significant level of support from the population is required to maintain it. To do that, a certain quality of living needs to be attained, otherwise the regime will collapse upon itself, same as everywhere else.


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## TheBigShort (29 Mar 2018)

Conan said:


> Maybe, but there lots of examples of regimes/families who have enslaved/controlled populations for long periods- Mugabe, Saddam, Stalin, Ceaucescu, certain African countries etc. NK is perhaps a stellar example of how bad it can get.



Yes, the 'family' is the focal point, but in order to achieve a monopoly on political power, a significant portion of popular support from the population is required. All those you mentioned above had significant support from the population. Only when did that support wane, did the regimes collapse (except maybe Iraq - I do wonder if given the chance would Iraqis prefer Saddam or the chaos they endure today?)


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## Conan (29 Mar 2018)

I often believe that a “benign dictatorship “ works better in certain countries than “democracy”. The fact is that certain countries just cannot handle democracy. We have seen the US trying to impose “democracy” on certain countries (eg Afghanistan, Iraq etc) and not always successfully. Whether it is tribal or ethnic differences, the reality is that certain countries were artificially created (in Africa and the Middle East) and just don’t fit into a democratic structure (with the limitations that such entails).


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## TheBigShort (29 Mar 2018)

All countries are artifically created as too is democracy. I dont subscribe to the notion that 'certain countries' cannot handle it. 
Either the people want it or they dont. If they want it and havent got it, typically they need to fight for it.
NK population, to the best of my knowledge, has shown little by way of fighting for democracy. 
That said, when things change, as they do, they tend to change quite quickly.


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## Leo (29 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> NK population, to the best of my knowledge, has shown little by way of fighting for democracy.



When even speaking out is enough to have your entire family (and the following two generations under three generation punishments) interred in prison camps for life, there will never be a revolt.


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## TheBigShort (29 Mar 2018)

Leo said:


> When even speaking out is enough to have your entire family (and the following two generations under three generation punishments) interred in prison camps for life, there will never be a revolt.



I disagree. 
If you are aware of the unjust nature of such a system, then it stands to reason most NK's can understand the unjust nature of such system. 
In such circumstances, it stands to reason that amongst the population of some 11m some are prepared to organise and sacrifice  - its human nature. 
However, it is also not beyond reason that the regime is successful in rounding up and brutally quashing any dissent as you have suggested. But to do that, organisational structures go far beyond the 'family'. Such an organistion requires layers upon layers of subservient and loyal subjects amongst the population. Such loyalty and subservience is sustained through, in no insignificant part, the provision of a minimum standard of living. 
Without it, as Yeats would say, "the centre cannot hold".


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## odyssey06 (29 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Also in order to sustain support for the regime, a significant level of support from the population is required to maintain it. To do that, a certain quality of living needs to be attained, otherwise the regime will collapse upon itself, same as everywhere else.



The nazi regime didnt collapse from within... even in 1945 under total blockade and air bombardment. It took the death of hitler and invasion from two fronts.


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## TheBigShort (29 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> The nazi regime didnt collapse from within... even in 1945 under total blockade and air bombardment. It took the death of hitler and invasion from two fronts.



I never said it did.


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## odyssey06 (30 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> I never said it did.



Let's hear your scenario for internal collapse then. How many people will have died from starvation before the pyramid starts to crumble? Will there be a civil war?
Because the Nazis didn't collapse, nor did the Japanese, from within... and they were under a massive amount of external pressure and daily bombardment and total blockade.


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## TheBigShort (30 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Let's hear your scenario for internal collapse then. How many people will have died from starvation before the pyramid starts to crumble? Will there be a civil war?
> Because the Nazis didn't collapse, nor did the Japanese, from within... and they were under a massive amount of external pressure and daily bombardment and total blockade.



Are you advocating full-scale bombardment of NK then? It would appear so.

I dont have a 'scenario' for internal collapse. Im merely pointing out that the NK must, to some significant extent, enjoy the loyalty and support of its people in order for it to sustain over any significant length of time.
Both Nazis and Japanese had the support of people and military and thats why they didnt collapse from within - exactly my point.


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## odyssey06 (30 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Are you advocating full-scale bombardment of NK then? It would appear so.
> I dont have a 'scenario' for internal collapse. Im merely pointing out that the NK must, to some significant extent, enjoy the loyalty and support of its people in order for it to sustain over any significant length of time.
> Both Nazis and Japanese had the support of people and military and thats why they didnt collapse from within - exactly my point.



Did the Nazis? In 1945? How do we know? Was there a democratic vote?
Anyone who dissented was shot or sent to a concentration camp along with their loved ones.
Is not revolting = support? Or is it just self-preservation?
Obviously, they had some support, but if that support is the SS \ military \ most of those with access to guns, then it doesn't seem to be a safe assumption to me that that translates = the support of "the people".

I'm not advocating total bombardment, I'm pointing out that the level of internal collapse in a society in the absence of such external pressure would have to be in excess of what Germany and Japan were enduring in 1945. And that level would have to be extreme - mass starvation and civil war. 
Some sort of externally backed coup would be much more preferable. If North Korea does descend into such a scenario, China would be culpable.


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## TheBigShort (30 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> The nazi regime didnt collapse from within... even in 1945 under total blockade and air bombardment. It took the death of hitler and invasion from two fronts.





odyssey06 said:


> Did the Nazis? In 1945? How do we know? Was there a democratic vote?
> Anyone who dissented was shot or sent to a concentration camp along with their loved ones.
> Is not revolting = support? Or is it just self-preservation?



I never said majority support. I said significant support. Sufficient to perpetuate the regime. Typically, this includes support of the military - who are also citizens of the state, with their own families and communities offering support. 
In order to sustain a military and police state as big as apparently NKs is, a certain standard of living must be provided, otherwise the centre will start to collapse.


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## Leo (30 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> In such circumstances, it stands to reason that amongst the population of some 11m some are prepared to organise and sacrifice - its human nature.
> However, it is also not beyond reason that the regime is successful in rounding up and brutally quashing any dissent as you have suggested. But to do that, organisational structures go far beyond the 'family'.



It does so with complete control of the media, education, strict limitations on travel (permits needed to travel outside your assigned work area) and brutal punishment enforced by a large military and police force that are treated better than the rest of the population, but also brutally punished if they dare question the leadership. 

I can't imagine it's easy to stand up to a corrupt regime where even speaking of your discontent is enough to land you in a work camp, and going further will have you publicly executed and three generations of your entire family interred.


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## TheBigShort (30 Mar 2018)

Leo said:


> brutal punishment enforced by a large military and police force that are treated better than the rest of the population, but also brutally punished if they dare question the leadership.




You are absolutely right, it most certainly is not easy. But again I revert to the large military and police force. This needs to be sustained in order to perpetuate the regime. 
If there is 1m+ serving in the military, this is not sustained solely by dictats from the top. It requires layers, upon layers of subservient and loyal subjects to keep the whole thing together, including some significant support from the population, even if that support is based on self-preservation.

The Pope in Rome has no sway over Catholics without the support of layers and layers of clergy, from Bishops, Nuns, Priests etc, supported in turn by subservient congregation manifesting itself in school teachings etc. This is how it is sustained. 

Saudi Arabia is another example of a brutal regime beheading its citizens as a means to control population and demand loyalty to the regime. It rewards those loyal to the regime.

But the fundamental point is, that the recent US/NK tensions have little, if nothing to do with the US having concern for the plight of NK citizens. 
It all has everything to do with trade, in particular Chinas interference in the South China Sea, building artificial islands for military bases to control trade along the region.


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## odyssey06 (30 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> I never said majority support. I said significant support. Sufficient to perpetuate the regime. Typically, this includes support of the military - who are also citizens of the state, with their own families and communities offering support.
> In order to sustain a military and police state as big as apparently NKs is, a certain standard of living must be provided, otherwise the centre will start to collapse.



China is North Korea's main source of food and energy.


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## TheBigShort (30 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> China is North Korea's main source of food and energy.



Yes I know. What is your point? Are you suggesting the US instead point its nuclear warheads at China for supporting the NK regime?


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## odyssey06 (30 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Yes I know. What is your point? Are you suggesting the US instead point its nuclear warheads at China for supporting the NK regime?



No, but you seem to be describing North Korea in a vacuum. They are sustained and shielded by China. 
Unless that external support dries up, I don't see internal collapse as a realistic scenario.

And China is culpable in the heinous crimes the regime carries out against its own citizens.
By its actions, China is an enemy of the North Korean people in a way that the US is not.


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## TheBigShort (30 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> No, but you seem to be describing North Korea in a vacuum. They are sustained and shielded by China.
> Unless that external support dries up, I don't see internal collapse as a realistic scenario.
> 
> And China is culpable in the heinous crimes the regime carries out against its own citizens.
> By its actions, China is an enemy of the North Korean people in a way that the US is not.



I dont consider NK to operate in a vaccum. 
Im simply sceptical that the US interest in NK has much to do about the plight of its people.
NK is a pawn for the US in dealing with the big fish - China.


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## odyssey06 (30 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> I dont consider NK to operate in a vaccum.
> Im simply sceptical that the US interest in NK has much to do about the plight of its people.
> NK is a pawn for the US in dealing with the big fish - China.



This might be one of those rare occasions when US self interest and the cause of human rights align. 
Like liberating western europe. Or defending the right of south eastern nations to trade unhindered.

Ireland taking a stance on North Korean human rights abuses is Skibbereen Eagle territory. Genuine but ineffectual. So what if in terms of the US interest, human rights is secondary concern, if it's effectual?


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## TheBigShort (30 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> This might be one of those rare occasions when US self interest and the cause of human rights align.



It may be, but I seriously doubt it. The US military engages in conflicts around the globe on a perpetual basis to sustain its self-interest. 
Human rights are always secondary.



odyssey06 said:


> Like liberating western europe. Or defending the right of south eastern nations to trade unhindered.



There will be no defending of 'right' to trade unless it is in their self-interest. Arguably, that is no different from any other nation state, but it means human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Gaza etc continue unabated. 

Dont get me wrong, im not saying the US is the big bad wolf in all of this. Its the economic system that prevails that leads to conflict and instability through the world.


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## Purple (3 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> It may be, but I seriously doubt it. The US military engages in conflicts around the globe on a perpetual basis to sustain its self-interest.
> Human rights are always secondary.


The US military is a tool of the US government and does nothing of its own volition. 



TheBigShort said:


> There will be no defending of 'right' to trade unless it is in their self-interest. Arguably, that is no different from any other nation state, but it means human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Gaza etc continue unabated.


 What's the alternative? 



TheBigShort said:


> Dont get me wrong, im not saying the US is the big bad wolf in all of this. Its the economic system that prevails that leads to conflict and instability through the world.


 What economic system? The countries where we see most conflict are nominally socialist. The alternative to trade is war. Trade is a good thing. The freer that trade the better. The problem with the USA and the EU is they want it both ways; we sell you our goods and services, often with our companies owning and running your resources, but we won't buy your goods and services without imposing hefty tariffs. The Common Agriculture Policy being the most glaring example of an unjust economic and trading model which causes suffering and hunger and stymies economic development. Beside that the US military is only in the ha-penny place.


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## Firefly (3 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Kim will rightly point to China as an example of increasing prosperity, all under the centralised command regime of the Chinese Communist Party.



Do you think the increasing prosperity in China is more attributable to their centralised command regime or to the opening up of their economy?


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## TheBigShort (3 Apr 2018)

Firefly said:


> Do you think the increasing prosperity in China is more attributable to their centralised command regime or to the opening up of their economy?



Its hard to tell, certainly they have opened up their economy for foreign investment, but there are still highly restrictive practices with regard to capital transfers and immigration etc.
Also, from what I understand foreign ownership of Chinese entities can still be restrictive, entry into particular markets is also determined at a central level despite the establishment of 'Free Trade Zones' such as Shanghai.
But despite this, as you have mentioned, they have increased their prosperity.


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## TheBigShort (3 Apr 2018)

Purple said:


> What economic system?



The economic system that values increasing wealth through the narrow scope of increasing GDP/GNP.
I'm not saying they are not important indicators, but they are limited in scope to measuring the well-being of a society. As such, the name of the game is for to increase value through GDP growth regardless of understanding if the economic activity inducing the economic growth is good for the overall economic well-being or not.


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## Purple (3 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> The economic system that values increasing wealth through the narrow scope of increasing GDP/GNP.
> I'm not saying they are not important indicators, but they are limited in scope to measuring the well-being of a society. As such, the name of the game is for to increase value through GDP growth regardless of understanding if the economic activity inducing the economic growth is good for the overall economic well-being or not.


Society is bigger than the economy so while we shouldn't use GNP/GDP or GNI to measure societal success what's wrong with using them to measure economic growth?


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## Firefly (3 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Its hard to tell.



It's not really. It's all here (if you read with an open mind) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_economic_reform, essentially it's made up of less state control, privatisation and more opening up of trade, trading conditions and exports.

The Central Command bit:

"
_The economy was heavily disrupted by the war against Japan and the Chinese Civil War from 1937 to 1949, *after which the victorious communists installed a planned economy*.[4][not in citation given] *Afterwards, the economy largely stagnated[citation needed] and was disrupted by the Great Leap Forward famine which killed between 30 and 40 million people*,_
"

The Opening up bit:

"
In the 1990s, Deng forced many of the conservative elders such as Chen Yun into retirement, allowing radical reforms to be carried out.
Despite Deng's death in 1997, reforms continued under his handpicked successors, Jiang Zemin and Zhu Rongji, who were ardent reformers
..
Also in 2005, China was able to surpass Japan as the largest economy in Asia
..

and there's plenty more.

From your earlier post I took it to mean that you attribute the improvements in the Chinese economy were due to it being a centrally commanded economy but anyone half an iota of common sense would disagree with that.


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## Firefly (3 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> The economic system that values increasing wealth through the narrow scope of increasing GDP/GNP.
> I'm not saying they are not important indicators, but they are limited in scope to measuring the well-being of a society.


That's why we have other measures such as global happiness measures and cost of living comparisons and the like. I think you'll find though that, on average, countries with high GDP/GNP ratios are usually the better places to live....


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## TheBigShort (3 Apr 2018)

Firefly said:


> From your earlier post I took it to mean that you attribute the improvements in the Chinese economy were due to it being a centrally commanded economy but anyone half an iota of common sense would disagree with that.



No I don't attribute it all to a central command economy at all. Perhaps we have crossed wires here. My interpretation of a free-trade open economy is that it limits government interference in my business to a greatest extent possible. In other words, if I am trading freely with pre-arranged agreements I am protected by those agreements that are supported by laws that protect me from undue influence from government, and that I have the ability to sue that government through court of law if I believe government has unduly encroached on my rights to engage in that trade.

I'm not so sure that such privilege, to such extent, is afforded to foreign business within China? I may be wrong, perhaps there is in the Free Trade Zones like Shanghai, but my understanding is that if the Chinese government wants to close a FTZ, it can do so at its own discretion. In Europe, looking at Brexit, it takes a referendum, negotiation, legislation etc to close a free trade agreement.

That is what I mean by central command economy - that all authority ultimately lies with the government, which I would fundamentally oppose.
My understanding is that such authority still extends to the Chinese government.


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## TheBigShort (3 Apr 2018)

Firefly said:


> That's why we have other measures such as global happiness measures and cost of living comparisons and the like. I think you'll find though that, on average, countries with high GDP/GNP ratios are usually the better places to live....



Not necessarily so.


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## TheBigShort (3 Apr 2018)

@Firefly I think you are mixing up political doctrines with economic doctrines. A central command economy is a political doctrine, free or open trade is an economic doctrine.

Both the Soviet Union and China are have central command authorities. One failed to implement free and open trade, stifling economic growth that collapsed the political doctrine. The other opened up to free trade to improve economic conditions, which to date has preserved the central command.

In Europe, with its principles of free trade and movement, the British believe that this is stifling their ability to prosper. Some believe that Brussels acts as a de facto central command - an unelected authority with undue influence on the affairs of the British people. 
Which is it? Is the EU an unelected authority imposing its will from a central command, or is it a free open democratic economic and political entity?


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## Purple (3 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Which is it? Is the EU an unelected authority imposing its will from a central command, or is it a free open democratic economic and political entity?


What’s got to do with North Korea?


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## TheBigShort (3 Apr 2018)

Purple said:


> What’s got to do with North Korea?



Not much, why?


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## TheBigShort (3 Apr 2018)

Purple said:


> Society is bigger than the economy so while we shouldn't use GNP/GDP or GNI to measure societal success what's wrong with using them to measure economic growth?



Nothing wrong with them, they are simply insufficient. Economic growth is generally accepted as good, but if that economic growth is based on the construction of 50,000 apartments in rural towns and villages, then it is somewhat a fools gold. By concentrating on the monetary value of GDP alone, and its increase in value over the inflation rate, it is masking other inefficiencies or other costs that are not factored into economic development.


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## Purple (4 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> By concentrating on the monetary value of GDP alone, and its increase in value over the inflation rate, it is masking other inefficiencies or other costs that are not factored into economic development.


I agree, that's why GNI is a better measure.


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## TheBigShort (4 Apr 2018)

Purple said:


> I agree, that's why GNI is a better measure.



It is still an insufficient measurement. It masks inefficiencies building up in that 'growth'.
Given the universal acceptance of the Paris Climate Change accord, I would think that carbon emissions would now be an integral part of calculating GDP?
Its fine if employment rises and economic activity creates extra $$$ and 'growth' but if it is dependent on burning extra fossil fuels then some form of calculation to take that into account, reducing the level of GDP, should be considered.
I also think calculations derived from a broad spectrum of activities should be factored into measuring growth - education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc...
The way I see it, all that apparently matters is trade. How much it costs to produce consumable goods and how how they can sell for. That is a very narrow and limited way to measuring economic growth in my opinion.


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## Firefly (4 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Its fine if employment rises and economic activity creates extra $$$ and 'growth' but if it is dependent on burning extra fossil fuels then some form of calculation to take that into account, reducing the level of GDP, should be considered.


Better to maintain or improve growth with greener energy sources, more like.



TheBigShort said:


> I also think calculations derived from a broad spectrum of activities should be factored into measuring growth - education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc...



You'll find that richer countries have better "education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc..."


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## Purple (4 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> It is still an insufficient measurement. It masks inefficiencies building up in that 'growth'.
> Given the universal acceptance of the Paris Climate Change accord, I would think that carbon emissions would now be an integral part of calculating GDP?
> Its fine if employment rises and economic activity creates extra $$$ and 'growth' but if it is dependent on burning extra fossil fuels then some form of calculation to take that into account, reducing the level of GDP, should be considered.
> I also think calculations derived from a broad spectrum of activities should be factored into measuring growth - education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc...
> The way I see it, all that apparently matters is trade. How much it costs to produce consumable goods and how how they can sell for. That is a very narrow and limited way to measuring economic growth in my opinion.


Is it not more a case of measuring economic growth being a very narrow and limited way to measure the growth, development and success of a country and/or society?


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## TheBigShort (4 Apr 2018)

Purple said:


> Is it not more a case of measuring economic growth being a very narrow and limited way to measure the growth, development and success of a country and/or society?



Perhaps yes. I dont distinguish much between society and the economy. The two are too interwoven to plausibly seperate from each other.
The GDP measurements, to which governments place too much store in, relate only to the monetary value attributable to economic activity in commercial trade.
Its obviously highly significant, but economic activity is everywhere and is not always measured in €€€.


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## TheBigShort (4 Apr 2018)

Firefly said:


> Better to maintain or improve growth with greener energy sources, more like.
> 
> 
> 
> You'll find that richer countries have better "education, crime, health, voluntary sector, arts & culture, etc...etc..."



I agree, in general. Not sure what your point is, although admittedly NK is not getting much of a look in now


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## cremeegg (7 Apr 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Did the Nazis? In 1945? How do we know? Was there a democratic vote?





TheBigShort said:


> I never said majority support. I said significant support.



Please guys buy a history book.


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## odyssey06 (7 Apr 2018)

cremeegg said:


> Please guys buy a history book.



The most recent one I read was Humanity - A Moral History of the 20th Century by Jonathan Glover. Seems pretty apt to this thread.
Sadly the moral horrors of WWI trenches, Nazism, Stalinism and the gulags, Pol Pot and Yugoslavia are being continued in the 21st century by North Korea.

Contributions from your recent readings are welcome...


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## TheBigShort (21 Apr 2018)

NK is playing a diplomatic blinder in my opinion.
After months of antagonism with the US and rocket launches and at least one nuclear test, they are now apparently offering a shutdown of nuclear sites and freeze on further testing.
The participation in the Winter Olympics and the approval of SK pop bands performing in the north signals a willingness for change imo.
From my armchair the NK play is this - we are open for business and open for reform and willing to move toward reunification.
The flip side is that the security of the regime leaders will be gauranteed by China and guaranteed some ambassador role (so no repeat of Saddam or Gaddaffi) and that US forces will retreat off Korean soil in return for a US embassy in the North to negotiate long-term diplomatic, security and trade agreements.
All just a hunch of course.


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## Purple (23 Apr 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> NK is playing a diplomatic blinder in my opinion.
> After months of antagonism with the US and rocket launches and at least one nuclear test, they are now apparently offering a shutdown of nuclear sites and freeze on further testing.
> The participation in the Winter Olympics and the approval of SK pop bands performing in the north signals a willingness for change imo.
> From my armchair the NK play is this - we are open for business and open for reform and willing to move toward reunification.
> ...


It could also be said that The Donald has played a blinder, calling the bluff of Rocket man, loath that I am to give Trump any praise for anything.


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## TheBigShort (23 Apr 2018)

Purple said:


> It could also be said that The Donald has played a blinder, calling the bluff of Rocket man, loath that I am to give Trump any praise for anything.



I agree, if he gets a result here it will be a large feather in the cap for the 2020 elections.


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## Firefly (26 Apr 2018)

So Rocket Man has nowhere to launch his rockets!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...test-site-collapse-may-be-out-of-action-china

Is it any wonder he's saying he'll denuclearize! Not a fan of Trump by any means, but hope he puts Kimbo back in his box!!


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## odyssey06 (26 Apr 2018)

Purple said:


> It could also be said that The Donald has played a blinder, calling the bluff of Rocket man, loath that I am to give Trump any praise for anything.



I would say yes, his approach seems to be producing results. I'm not a Trump-basher but my concern is that while this approach may have worked here, I get the feeling that it is Trump's default position rather than something he has done based on assessing the particular situation.


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## Firefly (11 Jun 2018)

I do hope the meeting between Trump and Rocket Man goes well, however, based on the disgraceful human rights abuses in NK, I hold my breadth:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/06/05/human-rights-north-korea


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## odyssey06 (11 Jun 2018)

Let's hope discussions don't go down this route... some genuine fake news here:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...es-reach-canada-trump-asks-kim-20180611174114


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## cremeegg (13 Jun 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> some genuine fake news here:


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## Firefly (31 May 2019)

More madness from North Korea









						US checking reports North Korea executed envoy, says Pompeo
					

South Korean paper claims Kim Hyok-chol has been killed and a negotiator put in forced labour




					www.theguardian.com
				




If only they had oil...


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## odyssey06 (31 May 2019)

Firefly said:


> More madness from North Korea
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, the generals could burn Kim Jong Il to death in it. I like your thinking.


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## Conan (31 May 2019)

I bet Trump is envious of Kim’s power. He loves dictators...Kim, Putin, Xi etc etc


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## Purple (4 Jun 2019)

Firefly said:


> More madness from North Korea
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If only they didn't have Nukes, then Trump could bomb some freedom into them.


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## odyssey06 (4 Jun 2019)

If only the Chinese gave a damn.


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## joe sod (4 Jun 2019)

its a pity kim does not get the treatment ceacescu got it in bucharest in 1989, when the crowd unexpectantly rose up and he was shot dead by his bodyguards, even hitler had assasination attempts.


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## Firefly (23 Oct 2019)

_Kim Jong-un orders razing of South's 'unpleasant' Mount Kumgang buildings
North Korean ruler demands makeover of joint resort, saying South Korean facilities are like ‘temporary buildings at construction sites’_









						Kim Jong-un orders razing of South's 'unpleasant' Mount Kumgang buildings
					

North Korean ruler demands makeover of joint resort, saying South Korean facilities are like ‘temporary buildings at construction sites’




					www.theguardian.com
				




Much better ones in NK!!


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