# New Ireland Assurance fees commission charges



## Barbie doll (11 Jun 2010)

can anybody tell me if they have sucessfully worked out what New Ireland Assurance would have taken in fees etc over 10 years. I invested in the Everygreen fund/Elite Bond. *I have asked the Company to tell me what the fees were for the last year but they told me it was in the statement. It isnt *as they draw down their fees etc on a daily basis so in order for me to work out what they have taken I would need to know what the balance was each day. New Ireland will not assist me. These Companies needs to be held accountable just like the banks. We should all demand that these fees etc be shown in monitory value. Has anybody gone to the financial regulator on this issue and won or would I be wasting my time. New Ireland Customer Service isnt very good as they are messing me around. *HELP!*


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## tenchi-fan (11 Jun 2010)

I can understand why they won't help you with this query.

Their customer service staff can only give you the info in your policy schedule. To calculate the exact charges over the past 10 years would probably take an actuary a few hours. Do you know much actuaries earn? You can hardly expect life assurance company's to man their customer service team with actuaries on €65k+ a year.

The truth is, you agreed to the charges as laid out in the policy schedule. If you no longer wish to pay said charges you are free to cancel the policy. 

The information life assurance company's are obliged to provide you with, as well as the frequency, is set out by the financial regulator. Your query is unreasonable. Not only that, it's also pointless, as the value of €1 10 years ago in today's money is much higher than the value of €1 today. So there's no point in adding them together to get €2.

Why not do a quick calculation.. if you paid €100,000 in over the years and the entry charge is 5%, you paid €5000 in entry charges. If the current fund value is €120,000 and the management charge is 1%, you pay approx €1200 a year. What have you to gain from knowing the exact fund management charge you paid 10 years ago?


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## laughter189 (11 Jun 2010)

From our experience , you are definately NOT wasting your time by going to the Financial Regulator / Ombudsman .

Follow the correct procedures , keep everything in writing , do your own research and keep note of everything .

Remember before you can proceed , you will need a final response letter from New Ireland


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## mercman (11 Jun 2010)

If you are looking for help you ain't going to find it in the case of New Ireland Assurance. Probably the most unhelpful company that there is. The fees are deducted on a monthly basis. I had a very serious case against them involving a substantial investment in October 2006. Brought the case to the Financial Ombudsman in 2008, he offered his finding one year ago and the matter still goes on and on and on. I was seeking my Investment returned and I got all the M Fees refunded and never to be charged a M Fee again as long as I hold the Policies. But the Ombudsman declared in writing that the case and file was closed but then it was reopened for New Ireland. 

Am awaiting further clarification from the Ombudsman and depending on the outcome will trigger as to whether I go public with the entire case history. Have a Website ready to go with all the facts and figures which will hopefully deter all and sundry to make realistic decisions concerning their Investments.

I've seen it all -- from false figures to seeking fees simply to get a deal i was meant to be on. Unbelievable stuff. No wonder the BoI are been forced to sell the company. But hold off - unless I receive comfort up the site will go. Absolutely nothing libelous but pure facts as they presented it.

For a company with €12 billion under Management one would think that they would be more customer friendly.


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## mercman (11 Jun 2010)

laughter189 said:


> you will need a final response letter from New Ireland



In my case it took New Ireland close to six months to issue the Final Response letter.


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## Barbie doll (11 Jun 2010)

what is a final response letter. Mercman I am very interested in your web page as I had the same idea. Tenchi you have no idea of the kind of fees this company could have taken and your calculations are way off. Just your argument alone shows how little you understand about their method of charging, or do you work for an Investment Company. I dont mind paying fees and I expect to do so for a service but I didnt get any.  I have done my research and believe me it is frightening to say the least. Laughter 189 did you take a case on the same grounds. People need to remember that their Tied Agents who call themselves Qualified Finanacial Advisors is no more than sales men. Does anybody have any thought on the Goverment bond scheme over 5 or 10 years. I have a lot of ground to make up.


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## laughter189 (12 Jun 2010)

I had a successful case against a financial instution due to the intervention of the Financial Ombudsman ....Was to do with excessive interest though


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## mercman (12 Jun 2010)

A Final Response letter is a letter which the Financial Provider must issue before a case can be handled by the Financial Ombudsman.

FYI, the fees are deducted on a monthly basis. In my case the only bit of good news is that the Tied Agent got the boot last week (I think), and after near 15 years of service. But in this crazy country he will, no doubt, be up and selling for another co very soon.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Hi mercman The fees that are applicable to the policy are calculated on a daily basis and result in the daily unit price including a deduction in respect of the Fund Management Fee, which equates to the noted policy fees stated in the policy conditions/  Taken from an email received from New Ireland Assurance.


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## mercman (12 Jun 2010)

I'm not doubting the content of your e-mails, but according to my own Actuary who has had to reconcile the figures for me on a substantial Investment, the fees are deducted Monthly. 

In most of NI funds the M Fees are 1.5% per year which means that the charges deducted are 1.5% divided by 12 equating to a per month deduction.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

How does one get hold of an actuary.  Did you happen to have an element of life assurance added to your investment.  This was added to mine and I dont know if they had the same investment without this .  I am wondering if they deducted a fee for this as well.  I told the QFA that I didnt want any form of life assurance and for good measure he now note that he put me down as a non smoker.  He knows very well that I smoke.  I never looked as this paperwork until recently.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

management charge is 1.65% on both investments which appears to be higher than yours.


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## mercman (12 Jun 2010)

Actuaries are expensive. It is a very specialist profession and they charge accordingly. Most of the NI policies include Life Cover -- something to do with overall corporate Tax. The most important thing that all new and existing Policy Holders must make certain is the need to get everything in writing.

Barbie Doll if you want the name of my Actuary, PM me and I will forward the details to you.


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## mercman (12 Jun 2010)

Barbie doll said:


> management charge is 1.65% on both investments which appears to be higher than yours.



Depends on which funds you are in. Check their web site and you should get the answer.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Will do and I have PM you.  Thanks for your assistance. I will Keep an eye on this page for additional updates as I have a keen interest in what New Ireland is doing.  They need to be shaken in the same way as the Banks.


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## mercman (12 Jun 2010)

PM sent to you. The best of luck to you.


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## tenchi-fan (12 Jun 2010)

Barbie doll said:


> Will do and I have PM you.  Thanks for your assistance. I will Keep an eye on this page for additional updates as I have a keen interest in what New Ireland is doing.  They need to be shaken in the same way as the Banks.



You'll get better bang for your buck by using a solicitor rather than an actuary to deal with New Ireland.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

What makes you think I need a solicitor. Why would I get a better bang for my money. An actuary is required. New Ireland wouldnt want me publishing that report. It wouldnt be in their interest. People would then start to take a look at their own investment charges and question New Ireland. That's what needs to happen here. If their charges are not over the top then why wont they issue statements showing € amounts instead of shrouding eveything in mystery. You shouldnt need to higher an Actuary to see what the bottom line is. These statements should be transparent and their not.  How do you know that they havent over charged?  *When I put this to New Ireland I was told they had reveiwed my record and were satisfied that everything was in order*.  So, if they have these figures why not allow me the oportunity to view them as well.


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## mercman (12 Jun 2010)

Barbie doll said:


> What makes you think I need a solicitor. Why would I get a better bang for my money. An actuary is required. New Ireland wouldnt want me publishing that report. It wouldnt be in their interest.



Take it from me, New Ireland couldn't give a damn what you say, print or shout. An Actuary is the requirement as all you are dealing with are figures. Solicitors are there to work on legal issues -- nothing else.

My case was different than most. Received an offer of Investment terms from the top of NI, handed over my cheques and you guessed it got absolutely nothing as to what I had been promised or signed up for. Near to four years of deceit, false figures, lies requests in writing not to cash in as it would effect the Commissions -- the list goes on and on. So I have bided my time and with no movement from NI, which I do not expect at this stage, up the site will go, as soon as my Web designer returns from holidays to get my passwords.


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## tenchi-fan (12 Jun 2010)

Barbie doll, it really depends on what you want to achieve.

Do you want a settlement from New Ireland, or do you want to try to expose them and bring your story to the newspapers?

Do you feel you were misled over charges and something came to light recently that you were paying more than you were told when you were sold the policy? i.e. you were "mis-sold the policy" and now you want the charges refunded?

Are you unhappy they charged for life cover even though you explicitly said you didn't want life cover?

Or are you just unhappy at a large fall in drop in the value of the policy over the past 3 years, you think it's a disgrace, and when you phoned New Ireland you decided to ask them the exact fees and charges that were deducted over the past 10 years because you feel that's where the money went? 

Also, were you sold the policy by New Ireland directly, or through BOI, or through another broker? 

If you know what you want you're more likely to get it - have you ever written a letter of complaint before? You start with the facts and end with the resolution you want. I honestly can't see what point you're trying to make. 

If you are just unhappy they didn't tell you the charges and take the case to the financial services ombudsman, chances are he will make them tell you the charges and give you compensation of a few hundred for the poor customer service you received.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

mercman I know, I'm just wondering why he would suggest it.  I too am wondering about NI accounting skills in New Ireland so why would i need a solicitor.  Horses for courses..


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## laughter189 (12 Jun 2010)

My suggestion would be to go the route of Regulator / Ombudsman first .You have stated above that New Ireland have admitted that they are happy with their figures .

So a final response letter should be a formality .

You will find that the Regulator/ Ombudsman have access to Actuaries , and if it was me , I would prefer to allow the proper authorities to use this service .

Actuaries are expensive , and at the end of the day  you may still not be satisfied with their outcome alone .


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Jun 2010)

tenchi-fan said:


> Your query is unreasonable. Not only that, it's also pointless, as the value of €1 10 years ago in today's money is much higher than the value of €1 today. So there's no point in adding them together to get €2.
> 
> Why not do a quick calculation.. if you paid €100,000 in over the years and the entry charge is 5%, you paid €5000 in entry charges. If the current fund value is €120,000 and the management charge is 1%, you pay approx €1200 a year. What have you to gain from knowing the exact fund management charge you paid 10 years ago?



In reality, it's almost impossible to calculate the actual charges being applied on such investments. It's possible that an actualy could do it, but it would be a hugely expensive exercize and would have to make many assumptions. I think that they could only estimate the figure. 

It's not like a bank account where you have a balance of €600 and they charge you €5 so you have €595 left. 

When I was on the Consumer Panel of the Financial Regulator, we brought up this issue - in general, not just for life companies. We had to rely on the FR checking that the correct charges were being applied. I can't remember the detail, but the FR was happy that charges were being applied correctly. 

I agree that there would be little point in looking back at ten years. 

Brendan


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## tenchi-fan (12 Jun 2010)

Brendan, while policy charges have simplified a lot in recent years, I understand old policies had some pretty bizarre charging structures.

I just don't know what the op is trying to prove. She is obviously not happy with something about the policy. I imagine the value is less than she expects it should be so she's complaining about the policy charges. If the case is taken to the ombudsman they'll just tell the op "everything looks fine."

On the other hand, if she is claiming she was not made aware of the management charges and she explicitly said she didn't want life cover yet life cover ended up on the policy, she has a mis-selling case against the broker who sold her the policy.

i suggest the op should deal directly with the life co, or if a large amount of money is involved she may choose to ask a solicitor to deal with the life co on her behalf to add weight to the letters. 

The actuary route is just a waste of money. If a management charge is calculated on a daily basis, just where is the actuary going to get the daily fund values over 10 years? 

Also, what was ok about the policy for the first 8 years that suddenly the op has a major issue with? The banking crisis? 

I think the op needs to recognise what outcome she's looking for, rather than the satisfaction of saying "so I WAS paying high management fees!"


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Jun 2010)

I agree with you. But I have seen it before, that people want to check that the charges applied were the charges agreed. It's just not possible to do that without an expensive actuarial exercize. 



> On the other hand, if she is claiming she ...explicitly said she didn't want life cover  yet life cover ended up on the policy, she has a mis-selling case  against the broker who sold her the policy.



I suspect that the Elite fund is a life policy. She is not getting any life insurance other than the refund of her investments on death. So she is not being charged for it. 

Brendan


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Thank you Brendan for your insight.  Tenchi first of all I never said I was paying a high management fee unless you are a QFA and have reconised this fact.  The only thing I would say is: In my humble opinion I should be able to take a look at my statement and see what charges have been applied.  I shouldnt have to higher and Actuary or Solicitor and I shouldnt have to accept from NI that the charges are correct, instead I should be able to view this for myself.  The fact that I have to, implies that these statements are missing important information.  Furthermore, If New Ireland has said that they are happy with the figures, what's wrong in allowing me an oportunity to view these.  Why are you so annoyed at me asking these questions?  The other point I will make is simply this; they chose to deduct the charges on a daily basis and if this presents a problem then its a problem they have made for themselves.  Why is the insurance industry allowed to operate in this fashion.    I am not a wiz kid in the financial world and so I went to New Ireland to be guided by a QFA.  In order to make a decision on where I need to be and in order to instruct a QFA I need to have a full picture of what their charges amount to.  I dont think I am committing a crime.  Perhaps its about time that everybody was able to view these charges in €'s.  The other thing is I never said I lost money.   Discussion is a healthy thing and it might just switch a light on in many a clients head.  Perhaps other people will check their statement and see for themselves that I have merely brought their attention to the obvious.  The subject matter might be a little too close to reality but like it or not everybody should be entitled to know what has been deducted from their investment.  Perhaps, the charges levied against my investment might well be an eye opener for the public.  I expect to pay these charges, I really dont have a problem with being charged but I expect to know what they amount to in the € sense.


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## tenchi-fan (12 Jun 2010)

I worked in a life assurance company and during my time there dealt with plenty of customers requesting "statements"! That's why I know you're wasting your time. If really is that difficult, when you take into account policy fees, management charges, entry charges, exit charges, life cover costs, initial and premium units, conversion of units, taxation, and of course the time value of money! 

I'm not getting annoyed. I just don't see your point. To say "I shouldnt have to accept from NI that the charges are correct, instead I should be able to view this for myself" is ridiculous. 

You clearly agreed to the charging structure even though you didn't understand it. On a yearly basis they tell you how much you've paid in, the current value, and any other information they are legally required to. If you don't like the way they do business simply take your business elsewhere.

If I bought a car I wouldn't expect the salesman to know how the engine worked, and I wouldn't expect the car's manufacturer to explain it to me. I'd just be happy the car was doing what I paid for!


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Ridiculous or not if charges were taken then what were they.  Why do they want to shroud it in secrecy   From what your saying it cant be quantified and if that's the case then how was it charged.  Would the true cost be that shocking.  Perhaps, you can explain why it is rediculous for New Ireland to show these charges in a statement.  

In regards to the car analogy that's rediculous as it doesnt relate to what I want to know.   

Why should I take my business elsewhere for asking a question?  If people don't speak up then changes will never happen.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

*difficulty in Quantify charges*

Hi why can't they quantify charges if they had deducted them they should be able to show what they were.  Can you explain this?


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Why are people not questioning this policy.  There are millions invested with New Ireland and yet not one of its clients knows exactly what they are being charged.  Trenchi Fan has not even asnwered my question and he used to work for one of these Companies.  He clearly understands the system in place.  Has no one even asked the question before.  If you have, then share what information you recieved.  If there is a logical explanation then please explain it and I will be happy to acept it.


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Jun 2010)

Hi Barbie

The charging process is discussed in this thread. if you read it and follow it, you will see that it's not possible to give a customer a breakdown of their actual charges as they are charged on a fund wide basis.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=117205

Brendan


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Hello Brendan I have read the threads you referred me to and I appreciate your help.  Perhaps I am stupid and clearly dont get the picture.  I am simply asking what was deducted in monitory terms based on historical fact.  In order to deduct a figure from my investment they had to have a figure amount.

If you could explain what I am missing that would be helpful.


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## worksop7 (12 Jun 2010)

tenchi-fan said:


> If I bought a car I wouldn't expect the salesman to know how the engine worked, and I wouldn't expect the car's manufacturer to explain it to me. I'd just be happy the car was doing what I paid for!



Yup, personally I am always inclined to unquestioningly trust salesmen in general and financial salesmen in particular. In fact, I absolutely trust all financial services companies. Notoriously honest and upright bunch, never ever ever known to put their interests above those of their clients, eh? 

If they won't explain their fee-charging structure in terms a layman can understand, it couldn't _possibly_ have anything to do with them concealing a particularly fat percentage behind a load of smoke and mirrors? It could _only _mean that its simply too complex for mortals to understand.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Hello Brendon I have read the article you refer to and I can see the various problems that would play a part in giving me an answer but only as it relates to next years charges.  I am seeking the bottom line on fees, commission and charges taken in the historical sense and therefore all events have taken place and the effects of those events are known along with the charges associated with them.  Therefore, I cannot see how it relates to my situation.  

If they took their fees etc that they applied a value and deducted that amount from the balance of my Investment.  So simply what are the charges etc applied.  Worksop7 is right when he states the only reason a company would hide the true extent of these figures is to protect the fact that they are fat.


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## tenchi-fan (12 Jun 2010)

In recent years there has been a move towards simpler charging structures. e.g. a management charge of 1.5% and a bid offer spread of 5%. It's only really on policies older than 10 years that things are a bit murkier. 

Here's a pretty good article
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/4472312/How-to-crack-the-insurance-codes.html


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## tenchi-fan (12 Jun 2010)

Barbie doll said:


> I am seeking the bottom line on fees, commission and charges taken in the historical sense and therefore all events have taken place and the effects of those events are known along with the charges associated with them.  Therefore, I cannot see how it relates to my situation.
> 
> If they took their fees etc that they applied a value and deducted that amount from the balance of my Investment.  So simply what are the charges etc applied.



Brendan basically told you* it isn't possible *to provide you with this information. At least, not practically possible.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

"at least not practically possible". tells me that on some level it is. Something that happens in the past is "known". I am not asking what these charges apply to but what they are. That is based on the balance before taking these fees etc. followed by the balance after. If my statement is able to list my balance then it should be able to tell me what the historical fees were. The events have happened. The historical events allow a customer to see where they need to go next. If it is in their best interest to stay with the current fund or to opt out. I except other factors will play a part in your decision but none the less, costs are important.

Tell me why you think it isnt practically possible to tell clients the historical charges etc

This article from Neil Faulkner might explain why I decided to ask New Ireland about the charges etc... I hope the link can be followed as I think it is relevant to my enquiry
 [broken link removed]


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Jun 2010)

Hi Barbie

That article refers to a completely separate issue. If you read the link I posted, you will see that it is practically impossible to give the charges for individuals as they are applied mostly at fund level. 

Brendan


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

If I keep getting it wrong then why didnt New Ireland clearly state that I would never be told exactly what the charges etc where and why bother telling you what they charge.  This is misleading everybody and the only people benefiting from this, is New Ireland Assurance.  What does everybody else think?

If I have it so wrong then explain the article I was reading if it wasnt about charging and the manor in which the industry operates.


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## tenchi-fan (12 Jun 2010)

Barbie, you just don't get it!

If you tell us how much you paid into the policy and the current value we could estimate how much you were probably charged over the years. The point is, doing so is rather pointless. 

Judge your investment by it's merit as it stands today. If it's performing well and you know the management charge is 1.65% and you are no longer making contributions it doesn't take a rocket scientist to calculate the management charge. Stop obsessing over money you spent 10 years ago! And in future, just maintain your own records a bit better if you really want a detailed historical record.

Now another point. If you invest €100 the management charge is only €1.65.
However, if the value of your investment doubles your management charge doubles to €3.30. 
So isn't it a bit silly that you want to know the charge in monetary terms, when in fact when you're seeking out the best interest rate you go by the percentage return!!


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## tenchi-fan (12 Jun 2010)

Barbie doll said:


> If I keep getting it wrong then why didnt New Ireland clearly state that I would never be told exactly what the charges etc where and why bother telling you what they charge.  This is misleading everybody and the only people benefiting from this, is New Ireland Assurance.  What does everybody else think?.



They didn't mislead you. 

Your policy document clearly states the charges as a percentage. You were happy to accept this. New Ireland serviced your policy in line with their terms of service. And now you're moaning that no one will work out the charges in monetary terms.

Yes, life companies used to make their charges unnecessarily complex. But your policy seems to be pretty straightforward. In future, keep better records of unit holdings and policy values when they are sent to you (usually on a yearly basis), and hire an accountant calculate any additional information you require e.g. exact monetary charges.

The really annoying thing about you, Barbie, is you are just complaining for the sake of it. You don't seem to be looking for advice, you don't seem to think you were overcharged, you have no complaints about your policy value, yet 10 years later and out of the blue here you are complaining over nothing!

And what if they told you , Barbie, your total policy charges were €4,381.56. What can you do with this useless piece of information? It's just irrelevant. It's not going to change the current value of your policy, it won't affect its future value, it probably won't have any correlation to the current year's charges or fund performance. I just don't understand what the issue is!


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Tenchi do not speak to me in that manor it is abusive in nature.  Furthermore, no one is forcing you to make comments.  If I am entitled to a statement of account then it is up to New Ireland Assurance to provide it.  

The financial services firm takes these charges direct from your investment or pension contribution or from your fund.  This reduces the amount of your money that is invested or reduces the value of your fund> Hence what is the value of this deduction.  Its quiet simple and no, if I chose to know its amount in € that's the way I prefer and I am not afraid to stand up and say so.  So your attempt to laugh at me doesnt worry me at all.  Futhermore, if what I am asking makes the industry uncomfortable then so be it.

If the financial Regulator found errors in the manor of charging in the past then I am right to question the deducted amount.  

I pay New Ireland Assurance to provide me with these deductions and therefore I dont require your services.  If New Ireland states they are satisfied that the charges are correct then I presume they should be able to provide me with a copy.  Now are you saying that cant be true!


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## tenchi-fan (12 Jun 2010)

They will just say their systems are tried and tested, and they have no reason to believe you may have been overcharged. It sounds like you already got this response.

You ARE entitled to information on your policy. The type of information is set out by the financial regulator and probably the pensions board in the case of pension policies. I'd bet money that you receive an annual benefit statement every year which contains all the info you're entitled to.


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Actually that's not what they said.    You appear to attack anybody who challenges the way they operate.  If you read any of the above then you would know that my enquiry stemmed from the fact that they deducted their fee on a daily basis.  So telling me their fee was 1.65% left me asking myself 1.65% of what?

I can definitley see from the use of your laugage and the constant reference to the minium Legal Requirement is definitley telling me you are still employed in the industry.

In order to know what the fees etc are I would have to know the daily balance at the time these deductions were made.  Futhermore, if their statment even said at the time our fees were drawn your investment stood at....would definitely help to clarify these charges.  You are wrong if all these fees amounted to €4,381.56 then why not state it the fact that they wont is what has me wondering.


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## Marc (12 Jun 2010)

Guys,

Important issues are getting raised here. Let's keep on topic....

OK, let's assume that Barbie is able to obtain a line by line breakdown on a daily basis of the annual management charges in Euros. Would this equate to the total actual charges on a policy. The answer is sadly not and that is the real reason why paying an Actuary a couple of grand would be a waste of time.

Permit me to elaborate slightly.

The annual management charge is simply the cost that an Insurance company is required by legislation to disclose but significantly this charge does not include other costs such as custodian and administration fees (in other jurisdictions such as the UK there is a legal requirement for these additional costs to be shown in a Total Expense ratio or TER).

Now, let's assume for sake of argument that all Irish Insurance Companies somehow manage to offer all their investments without paying a cent for administration or custody.

Would the annual management charge represent all the costs?

Again, sadly not. There are additional costs associated with running an investment fund such as stamp duty, brokerage commissions, bid ask spreads, and the more a fund changes it's holdings, the greater these costs are. Remember that stamp duty in Ireland is 1% so that each and everytime a fund buys an Irish Stock there is a 1% cost taken from the fund. The Irish stock market only represents about 0.2% of the world so for everyone else on the planet this really isn't a big problem. A market weighted portfolio will only have a tiny holding in Irish Stocks (if anything at all). But in Ireland this is a massive handicap since nearly all the Irish Insurance Companies funds are stuffed full of Irish Stocks. 

Who bears these additional costs? The investors in the fund of course- i.e. you! These costs only show up in the final returns the investor receives - there is no requirement in Ireland for the Insurance companies to provide audited report and accounts showing these trading costs or the turnover of the holdings in their funds, or if they profit from stock lending etc etc.

Consequently, even if you were to raise merry hell until you obtained a detailed breakdown of the annual management charges on a daily basis, you would still simply be wasting your time and money.

To my mind the issue that should be raised is to require all investment companies operating in Ireland to provide independently audited report and accounts clearly showing all the fees and expenses of a fund. 

For our clients we only recommend funds where we are able to obtain a prospectus, audited accounts and daily pricing. Anything less than this and you simply have no idea what you are really paying in fees.

For a brief analysis of international studies in this complex area please see [broken link removed] 

Marc


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## Barbie doll (12 Jun 2010)

Hello Marc
Thank God someone is listening. I have been trying in my limited way to explain that New Ireland Assurance as in my case have failed to tell me what I am paying. So perhaps tenchi would like to argue this with you. I may not be the rocket scientist as he put it but you grasped what I was trying to get at. So to make myself clear I believe the amount I have had deducted is larger than the amount refered to by Tenchi (tenchi figure might be what one can expect to cough up on a yearly basis depending on the balance of your fund at that given time)  if I'm wrong then defend your position happy to listen to what you have to say.

This was taken from the international studies as stated above by Marc

Conclusion
Fund managers in Ireland do not benefit from the economies of scale seen in the USA or even the UK. We estimate that the possible cost of investment for the average Irish retail investor is of the following order of magnitude:
Quoted Fund Management Charge:                          1.00%pa 
Additional administration and Custody charges:     0.91%pa
Hidden trading costs:                                                     1.44%pa
*Total:                                                                                 3.35%pa*

In my case they are deducting charges on a daily basis.   If England can work these additional charges out but Ireland states is not possible then, theres something wrong and we need to change the Law in this country.  

So my article wasnt wrong the only difference was that Ireland doesnt require Insurance Companies to give this information to their clients but more importantly they should be made.


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## Barbie doll (13 Jun 2010)

Because my management cost is higher does this mean I could be paying a yearly fee of 4% on my investment. What chance do I have with these sorts of fees. Does anybody have any advice?  In so far as is there any investment with reasonable return but has lower fees or are all investments the same.


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## Domino (13 Jun 2010)

Very good questions being asked here. there seems to be a further murkerness in the finance sector


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## Barbie doll (14 Jun 2010)

My Investment return might not even achieve 4% this year and if that's the case my investment will drop with these fees being deducted. If the return is only 4% then my Investment doesnt grow. The return might be 5% then my return is no better than a savings account in a bank.

I have also asked for an update on how this Investment is doing and although I requested that about 2 weeks ago I still havent received it. When I questioned this I was told it was being sent out.

So Tenchi that's why its important to know what THESE FEES are. It could turn out that my money would earn more just sitting in a bank for the time being.

This affects everyone with an Investment and so everybody should be demanding better transparancy from the Insurance Companies, Agents and Tied Agents. It's like giving them a blank Cheque. The next time you invest ask them this question and see what they tell you "is the only charges applied the 1% and the 1.65%" and see what your told!


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## Barbie doll (14 Jun 2010)

Is this something the financial regulator deals with? Is this a valid complaint? or is there nothing that can be done about this?


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## Barbie doll (10 Jul 2010)

Can anybody tell me what the tax implications are for cashing out of this mutal fund.


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