# Judicial separation- experiences & likely outcome?



## Stuart101 (18 Aug 2019)

Hi,
Just trying to get some hard answers on the likely financial Court outcome of my wife & my Judicial Separation. 
I will get straight to the points, so this is not a too wordy and easy to read.

We have 2 houses: Family home €500k valuation, mortgage €200k = +€300k wealth. 
Other property, was a Celtic Tiger. Valuation €400k, mortgage still €600k unfortunately= -€200k negative wealth (rents out ok though).
I chose not to go on family home title deed or mortgage when we married, as I was worried my negative equity home may give us family problems for the family house, if I got underwater with it.
Wife now stating in Court documents I’m not on the family home deeds and it is hers. 
During 10yr marriage I also invested €120k in the family home for an extension, drive, etc over years which I can prove. 
However, she will argue that whist its our biggest asset, is in her name and she has no money if Im looking a buy-out for one and does not owe me one. 
( We both still live in the family home, separate rooms).
Cash savings: I have significant cash & pension, whilst my wife has maybe €10k. 
She is now also trying to put a court freeze on all my savings circa €100k.
*/*
*Likely Court outcome:*
I understand it is likely she keeps the family home and I do want this for the kids too is my preference. 
However, it is a 5 bed/ 4 bath 3000 sq. Palace, and I do expect her to buy me out a small bit.  She could easily do this with a mortgage increase – I am only looking about €50/€75k (my pension and other cash is now considerable). If it were a 50/50 asset split this seems like the maths of it and Im trying to make minimal for her. About €50k I would settle for and she keeps house.  She wants no buyout payment and likely chasing my cash savings too.
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*Worst case scenario in court & best case for me?*
Worst case- Is there a possibility she gets the 5 bed house to herself, no buyout for me & she even gets some of my cash savings?
This worst-case risk is clearly a big concern for me, so I am considering now at putting some of my monies beyond reach or outside of my affidavit of means.
My family lent me considerable funds in cash when I had no money 10+ years ago after the Celtic bust and are happy to swear an affidavit in court that it was a long term loan. My wife clearly does not believe there were any loans.
Q. What Court outcome can I expect from a family loan like this is it was in cash? 
Surely it is hard to prove one way or the other if it is sworn by both parties to the cash loan?
Q. If there are other assets that are undeclared, I don’t see any evidence from internet searching of Perjury in family law. I cant find any cases where during asset discovery assets came to light and the guilty party was convicted of perjury? (Not that Im doing this, but I don’t see any examples here or on the net of it & actual outcomes).
*Any legal view or experience with;*

Q1) Likely outcome when family home is worth a lot, but wife cash poor, husband cash rich/asset poor.
Q2) Court view on sizeable cash family loans, sworn by affidavits.
Q3) Any actual instances of perjury for undeclared or under declared assets in family law- not the ethics of it please. I cant find and have not heard of any..
Q4) Expenditures in bank statements- has the court/wife’s solicitor any right to query past excessive money spent? 
Surely its my own business if from my own savings account what I spent it on- its gone too?
Q5) Legal cost of it all- My wife pushing for court, I wanted mediation and settlement. Who is bank-rolling it all or likely to fund it all?
/
*You can see my concern that "cash-is-king", all assets are not treated equal and I will end up paying for her court case out of my cash reserves to enable her to retain the main asset, with zero buy out for me- the family palace herself- maybe with a new man living there within a yr too. 
Myself, told to reside back in the negative equity, bedsit 2nd house that is not same spec or size*.
/
Hope this is clear. Tried to keep the complexities as brief as possible.
Please be as clear as possible on any answers if ok. Actual experience, examples please to back up any statements or general views etc.  
Appreciated, thank you.


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## noproblem (18 Aug 2019)

I'm no lawyer but you my friend need to see one. I cannot guide you except to say the loans you say you got from family and friends, that your wife doesn't believe you got, will have to be backed up with evidence of where the money came from to give to you.


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## Feemar5 (18 Aug 2019)

What ages are your children and who pays the current bills ?     Does she get any income from the rented property and is everything above board with Revenue?   The court will most likely give her the family home especially if your children are still young.   Can you prove that your family lent you money - i.e bank transfers etc.,  You should get some recognition for the money you put into the family home - who paid the deposit when you bought the property?   Can you produce documentation to prove all your expenses.    I would advise mediation and the future provision for your children should be utmost in both your minds.


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## Stuart101 (19 Aug 2019)

Q. What ages are your children and who pays the current bills ?
A. 8yrs & 5yrs. All bills currently 50:50 on family home (just one payment I pay wife monthly at moment- Im still living in family home)

Q. Does she get any income from the rented property and is everything above board with Revenue?
A. Wife no income from it- there is little, given size of mortgage still on it.
All above board with Revenue and let tenancy agreement.
A-Q. My Separation argument here, is when we separate surely this property negative equity must be factored into our combined assets at JS?
Especially, if she is expecting rental income from it in future years, she must wear part of negative equity valuation at JS in combined asset equation?

Q. The court will most likely give her the family home especially if your children are still young.
A. Agree, however will the court not acknowledge that it is a 5 bed large family house with low mortgage. If she retains, she has most of our overall wealth.
A-Q. Will the court not expect a buy-out figure to be made to me for this?
(She could easily increase mortgage, given the equity in it by say €50k/75k to buy me out of it now.

Q. Can you prove that your family lent you money - i.e bank transfers etc.,
A. Over 10yrs ago. Hard to get bank statements from pre-2005 now. Some was cash loans. They are happy to write affidavit & I also have promissory note for the bigger family loan.
A-Q. Will court dismiss these loans, as unprovable?

Q. You should get some recognition for the money you put into the family home - who paid the deposit when you bought the property?
A. My wife paid most of initial deposit. I paid small one 3%.

Q. Can you produce documentation to prove all your expenses.
A. Yes. I injected my savings into family home over circa 10yrs , garden, extension, drive, gates & can prove this.

Q. Have documents I would advise mediation and the future provision for your children should be utmost in both your minds.
A. Agree, without question on the kids. I want them to stay in family home status quo.
I just want a fair buy-out payoff to leave, given the investments I made in the house and the asset mix. We tried mediation & my wife quit it. I also wanted to exchange documents via solicitors, but she is pushing it straight to court.
A-Q. Will Court look at this unfavourably for her that she quit mediation early on & refused to engage solicitor v solicitor negotiations?
A-Q. Who will wear the expensive cost of going to Court? I clearly perceive it unnecessary and could have been resolved via mediation.


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## Bronte (19 Aug 2019)

I'm not seeing why the wife should get the family home.  It's clear both parties were paying for it.  Her sole name on the title deeds doesn't change that.  

OP should outline his ideal situation.  And must make that outline based on the needs of wife and children as well as himself.  The best for everybody.  

A judge is going to look at this based on everything.  Particularly the needs of the young children.  Is there any reason why it would be the wife to stay in the family home rather than the husband.  If you're happy for it to be that way where are you going to live.  My understanding of court cases nowadays is that if the wife stays in the home she must sell it when the children are older and divide the proceeds.  

Is there any way you both could reach an amicable arrangement as you are both going to lose out big time in legal costs.


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## Sunny (19 Aug 2019)

You are not going to get the answers here. There is never one answer fits all in these circumstances. You have considerable assets and already reading through the lines, it doesn't sound like it is an amicable separation if she is trying to freeze your savings. Mediation is always the ideal solution but you really do need to invest in proper legal advice.


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## Stuart101 (19 Aug 2019)

I agree it is a complex mix.
Im trying to get good legal advice at moment.
Just with the summer holiday season, the timing of it all has not been ideal, for a legal and Court period.
I agree on the family house- not a given it goes to my wife. Albeit we both acknowledge, the kids will be residing in the main with my wife post JS.
*My wife's ideal goal is likely* : She retains the family home, and my cash saving pay for the Court case...
She will argue, she has little direct savings of her own. She knows I have a well paid job, considerable savings and likely does not believe my total savings & wants discovery via Court.
*My ideal goal & the reality*: Yes, I have savings, but the actual numbers are not as high as my wife believes.
I do want her to keep family home for the kids now, but as our largest asset, I expect a fair buy-out now via a mortgage increase/equity release.
To me this seems the most optimal for everyone.
Kids and wife maintain status quo in family home, I get a deposit for a house elsewhere from the buyout.
- The difficulty Bronte, in if the family home is retained and only sold  & split 15yrs+ later, who knows where were are then logistically, financially etc..
Eg. another partner may move into the family home as soon as I leave within a year- just gets even more complex then...
I can see why as a County Ireland  is now moving toward 2 year Divorce, as it brings a conclusion to all the complexity within a reasonable time period for all...


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## Bronte (19 Aug 2019)

Stuart how is your wife going to pay you a lump sum?  You want her to take on more debt to do this?  Can you run the numbers on this.  Including how all bills will be paid in a situation you are no longer in the house.  

You say it's a big house, is it possible to divide it?


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## Stuart101 (19 Aug 2019)

Hi Bronte,
The cleanest way would be my wife buys me out of the house that I see it with a lump some. I estimate €50k mortgage increase is €250 a month more. Whist more monthly money for her to find now, it gets over all the complexities of if she meets another partner who moves in to the family home, etc, as I see it. Keen on a view if this is done much or realistic?

- The house could be sub-divided quite cleanly. However, anyone who seems to have gone down this road, says it is not a clean break really for either person and can be still stressful/ messy v kids access and the partner is really still in close proximity. 
-The other option is divide it and rent out my side of the house. Me rent then elsewhere. 
My wife unlikely to agree this, possible planning issues, I have not heard of anyone doing this option?.. 
Would bring in some income for either of us family maintenance.


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## Steven Barrett (19 Aug 2019)

How much is your cash and savings? Everything seems to be focused on you getting something from the house. You state you have significant cash and pension savings but haven't disclosed the value.


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## Feemar5 (19 Aug 2019)

As you have contributed to the family home - see





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						Property rights and the breakdown of a relationship
					

This page explains whether spouses and cohabiting partners have any property rights following the breakdown of their relationship.




					www.citizensinformation.ie


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## Thirsty (19 Aug 2019)

" Ireland is now moving toward 2 year Divorce, as it brings a conclusion to all the complexity.."

Doesn't make a whit of difference.

The only additional value Divorce brings is the right to re-marry.

I'd strongly recommend you both to discuss a collaborative process with your respective solicitors.

You have significant assets, which is good as it means your children can be properly looked after. Which is the only real important factor here.

You also have to both accept that neither of you will be as well off as before; you can't run two households for the same cost as one.


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