# Domestic Wind turbines - Viaible option yet?



## hanorac (8 Jan 2009)

Hi,

When we started building 2 years ago we would have loved to put one in, came home from uk and they were more advanced there what with buying/selling to the grid.
Where are we today in Ireland? When do  you think it will become an option to homeowners to install one?


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## joker538 (8 Jan 2009)

Hi,
I am looking into this at the moment. In order for it to be viable smart metering will have to be intorduced. The Commission on Energy Regulation has approved Smart Metering but its roll out is not expected to be until April of this year.
Other factors also influence whether this will be economic such as site location and wind speeds, etc.


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## living:room (15 Jan 2009)

Attended a domestic energy course at the Cultivate Centre in Temple Bar before Xmas where they touched on this - said the turbine needs to be at a height of about 12m to be effective and also that you need clean air (ie. above disturbances in air stream like buildings, trees etc.)

There is another course coming up dealing specifically with domestic energy production including wind energy, if you are interested:

http://www.cultivate.ie/learning/green_building/intro_wind_energy_microhydro_solarpv.html


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## quentingargan (19 Jan 2009)

Hi, I'll be giving that course at Cultivate. Basically it depends on your site as to whether or not wind energy is for you. If you live in a housing estate, it probably isn't. You need clean wind, and the idea of sticking a turbine on your chimney isn't the business...

To answer your question about selling electricity to the grid, the ESB has just agreed that it will buy electricity at 9c per KwHr from microgenerators. Your equipment has to meet certain standards. The Commissioner for Energy Regulation held a consultation process which ended last Friday. We hope that as a result they may raise that price from 9c. 

More to the point, we hope they conclude the decision making process soon so that at least we have some sort of power purchase agreement. 

Quentin.


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## PaddyBloggit (19 Jan 2009)

Quentin,

Where is the best place online to find out about these microgenerators?

What are the costs involved?


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## Clarelassie (20 Jan 2009)

Hi Quentin,

I would also be very interested. Thanks for your info so far!
N.


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## Askar (20 Jan 2009)

I suspect that for most house locations wind turbines are not suitable.


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## sfag (20 Jan 2009)

Nah


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## picassoman (20 Jan 2009)

Got this from   [FONT=&quot]NETA Renewable Training recently..

[/FONT]    [FONT=&quot]Dear Reader,[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]A new dawn approaches with new ESB export tariffs for domestic homes shortly. A new business opportunity[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]With exploding sales, installations of domestic wind turbines, solar photovoltaic systems, hydro and CHP.[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]The National Energy Training Academy is announcing the first installer courses in Ireland and booking has started.[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Go to [broken link removed] for details. Call the Call centre on 1850 778 778 and register your interest. [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]The NETA installer training is mandatory for the Greenloan micro-generation scheme, the SERVE micro-generation [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Grant scheme and you also get a manufacturers certificate for the SEI grant scheme.[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]The courses are subsidized if you are a member of the Irish Wind Energy Association, its first come, first served.[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Who should do the course, Installers, Electricians, Sales, Engineers, Farmers, Advisors, BER assessors, etc.[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Learn about, foundations, tower installation, turbine assembly, electrical installations, grid connection, licensing,[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]SMART metering, Tariff applications, site surveys, etc, etc, etc.[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Read the documents attached or go to the website for more details. [broken link removed][/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]Regards,[/FONT]
  [FONT=&quot]The Team at NETA.[/FONT]


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## picassoman (20 Jan 2009)

National Energy training Academy – Consumer Guide – Microgeneration 2009.
Microgeneration is the small electricity generation although it can mean up to 500kw
generators which would be significant from a consumers point of view.
What can I use to generate my own electricity?
You can use wind power, solar electric panels, CHP (combined heat & power) from
Gas, Oil, Biomass, Diesel generator, - there are some other options which are not
commercially available (if ever).
Will I get paid for my electricity?
Yes, in early 2009, an interim tariff payment will be in place. You will need a new
meter, either Interval or SMART to calculate the payment and it will be paid annually.
The current draft price is 9c per kw/h. It will be an offset process so you will only be
paid for excess, i.e. you will consume your own energy first and export the excess.
This is good because you will pay approx 21c kw/h for purchasing your electricity. In
effect you will be paid 21c kw/h for your own electricity that you consume on site and
9c kw/h for excess that you export.
Can I install a DIY micro-generation system?
In simple terms, from 2009, No. To get a SMART meter to calculate your exports and
to get approval to connect to the grid, you have to submit much documentation. Most
DIY equipment does not meet this standard and equipment that does is only supplied
through recognised and trained supplier installers. If you do not meet the many
requirements, you will not get any payment and your house may be disconnected from
the grid if you don’t remove the offending equipment.
I know somebody who has connected to the grid but it was a DIY installation?
As the DSO (ESBN) has only a handful of licensed installations registered as legal, 15
domestic wind turbines in the whole of the ROI. These will get SMART meters and
tariffs in 2009. An installation which is grid connected and is not legal is called a
rogue installation and will not receive a tariff or SMART meter.
Is there a size limit for getting metering and tariffs?
Yes, EN50438 is the European standard which applies. Before you purchase, you
should ask your supplier for the manufacturers EN50438 conformity certificate. On a
single phase connection (normal house), you are limited to 25 amps maximum plate
rating. This is 230 VAC x 25 Amps = 5.75 kw maximum rating. If you install larger
than this, you will not receive a meter or tariff at this stage.
If it is 3 phase connection, you can install up to 16 Amps per phase or 11kw
maximum rating.
Is there a lot of bureaucracy and risk associated with getting the installation
correct so that I get a meter and a tariff?
© Copyright – National Energy Training Academy 2009
Yes, and it is even risky for suppliers and installers as the rules are unique to the ROI
and are always changing/evolving. Only use a professionally trained installer and one
who is a member of the trade association, in ROI’s case, the Irish Wind Energy
Association as their membership in that association will keep them informed after
there training.
Training covers many things from legal, insurance, technical, liability, indemnity,
support, customer care, maintenance plus all the grid connection, metering and other
system processes.
Am I guaranteed a SMART meter?
No, but anyone who has a legal licensed installation will get priority for a SMART
meter. This however WILL NOT mean that you won’t get a tariff. You installer will
apply for an interval meter for you and this will calculate your export. As regards
getting a free SMART meter now, you should install some micro generation and get
on the list as a current micro generator.
What size system should I install?
Simple, for wind, you should install the maximum size under the rating, at least above
5kw plate rating on single phase. If you don’t have the space for it, install solar
electric panels from 1kw upwards. These can be expanded as modules over time. 3kw
solar PV is approx the same price as a 5.5 kw wind turbine installed. (please note, we
assume legal and professional systems, with wind turbine on a tower)
I have already installed a 10 kw wind turbine at my house, can I get a meter and
the tariff?
No, the turbine exceeds the EN50438 standard on sizing if you have a single phase
electricity supply (every normal house) but you would also have to comply with all
the other product standards issues if you have a three phase system, i.e. not three
phases from the turbine but 3 separate grid-connect inverters.
Why has it taken so long to get a micro-generation tariff?
The public rarely see the quantum of work which had to be undertaken to be in a
position to offer a professional tariff to a professional industry. The process started in
2005 with work on the legal licensing process by the Commission for Energy
Regulation. The Micro-generation rules were published in late 2006. At the same
time, the DSO was working on simplifying the application process which is on place
since 2006 also. The metering options had to be addressed and a SMART metering
program was developed and the pilots are currently underway. Now the installer
training and product standards rules are being implemented. The tariff offer in Ireland
is a sustainable tariff value, it is has a long term future. 2009 will be the year of
micro-generation. There are currently (Jan 2009) only a handful of legal wind and
solar installations in the country.


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## Jister (24 Jan 2009)

Can anybody put some sort of ballpark numbers on this, IE the cost of a middle range turbine and what the payback is likely to be?

EG would €5K put the equipment in place and 3 years later my investment will be largely recouped with reduced ESB bills and money paid from electricity sold to the ESB?


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## hanorac (16 Mar 2009)

Anyone know or approx the costs involved?


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## PaddyBloggit (16 Mar 2009)

I got a price for a 5KW Grid-Tied Micro Wind Generator of €17,500 plus VAT.

On the size of house I'd be linking into my saving would be roughly €1100 on electricity running costs per annum and the ESB would be paying me €900 approx per annum for the excess I'd generate.

On those prices it would take me roughly 10 years to break even on investment (not including maintenance costs here so time frame is probably longer than that).


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## sam h (16 Mar 2009)

Paddy, do you know if the ESB will pay you directly if the amount generated exceeded usage - we have a holiday home in the west & it gets PLENTY of wind.  It is used for about 3 months a year in total so I would imagine that the amount generated would well exceed the amount used.  Could we end up making a profit (which could be used to pay for the 2nd home tax that will most likily be introduced next month!!)?


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## PaddyBloggit (16 Mar 2009)

The info I got is that the ESB will pay for excess available so I'm hoping that I'd be earning when not at home!


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## adder1 (17 Mar 2009)

What is life span of turbine. After 10 years you may also have to replace it also would you be taxed on the electricty sold to esb?
and as was said maintenance cost need to be factored .

It sounds like it might never pay off


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## Centaur (8 Nov 2009)

Is anybody in a position to update this thread?

I'm looking at putting in a 2.5kv plant at a cost of €13,500.  I've a good site but still think I may be chasing windmills?!

I've got solar panels for hot water and geothermal heating. Night rate electricity is not bad value.  I'm very pleased with the solar panels and the geothermal.

I'd love to talk to somebody who has done it (put up a wind generator) that has no connection to the industry.


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## mercman (8 Nov 2009)

The matter of the Domestic Wind Turbines offers so many degrees of variances and unanswered questions.  I have done some research in this from a number of different companies. The prices quoted vary from mediocre to very expensive which IMO seems like the same thing from all. The maintenance of such an installation requires to be addressed as does the matter of Taxation for the excess of supply 'sold' to the ESB.

There is no cheap way in doing this and the cheapest might not be the best option. But as a real alternative one might have thought that the Questions could be answered by the 'Greens' before a person spends thousands on an installation of a project that sounds good but raises many questions.


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## PaddyBloggit (5 Nov 2010)

Any update on domestic wind turbines?


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## bluemac (5 Nov 2010)

I looked at putting one in perfect site but needed to go up 14m so I was above the treeline for a proven 6KW system it was working out at about €30k  and would have took 20 years to pay back at least.

The main cost was the tower, I did hear that the company in Meath that put up the motorway lights can make a tower to any spec for about 7k... I never looked into it because you could sell the excess back to the grid.


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## quentingargan (6 Nov 2010)

The viability of a wind turbine depends entirely on your site, and there is a certain amount of guesswork in estimating the output, even if you use an anemometer. A site with a mean windspeed of 7 m/sec will have double the output of a site at 5 m/sec.

A while back I drew up instructions for estimating wind speed at your site based on SEAI windspeed maps, and then estimating annual energy production based on the power curve from the turbine manufacturer and an online calculator. PM me with an email address if you want a copy of those. 

The other intangible aspect is the cost of energy over the lifetime of the turbine. The tower and foundation (if well made) will last 60 years or so, while the turbine should be good for twenty, and repairable at that age as well. Anybody want to hazard a guess at the price of electricity in 2030?

My guess is that we have already passed global peak oil production, and that if world demand for energy returns, we will see energy prices rising at a rate much higher than general inflation. 

We will also see increases in the cost of copper, steel, and other ingredients of most renewable energy systems. The price of a wind turbine or solar panel may be at an all time low, and the digger drivers, electricians etc., are all answering their mobile phones these days, which wasn't happening two years ago!


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