# Non Identification of Financial Advisor in court report



## dereko1969 (11 Nov 2014)

The Irish Times is reporting today on a case where a couple had their bankruptcy annulled due to poor or incomplete advice from a Financial Advisor.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...uptcy-after-claims-they-were-misled-1.1995689

Why isn't the Financial Advisor identified? Is there not an onus on the courts and/or media to identify the person who the court agrees misled or failed to fully inform the couple in question of other options?

Or is it just same-old same-old in this wonderful republic of ours?


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## T McGibney (11 Nov 2014)

Very simple:

1. two sides to every story: "after *claims* they were misled"
2. libel laws.


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## dereko1969 (11 Nov 2014)

The Court found that they weren't fully informed, that was a finding in law. The only other cases where the perpretrator isn't identified is in sex offences to protect the identity of the victim oh and also family law cases. I'm not saying they're equivalent at all but I thought the whole point of our justice system was that it was heard in public?


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## T McGibney (11 Nov 2014)

The reasons I gave stand up. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you. If you want to let off steam, there is a forum for that purpose.


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## dereko1969 (11 Nov 2014)

I didn't think I was letting off steam, I'm just curious. Or are we not allowed disagree anymore?


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## Padraigb (11 Nov 2014)

T McGibney said:


> 1. two sides to every story: "after *claims* they were misled"


Claims that the court seems to have accepted, so the headline might have been "after court finding that they were misled"


> 2. libel laws.


If the hearing was in open court and the judge made no order about publication, then the newspaper was free to report the names.


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## Steven Barrett (11 Nov 2014)

It sounds like they went to someone who was not qualified to give them advice. Then when they did go to someone who is qualified, they got the correct advice and got their bankruptcy annulled. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Jim2007 (11 Nov 2014)

dereko1969 said:


> Why isn't the Financial Advisor identified? Is there not an onus on the courts and/or media to identify the person who the court agrees misled or failed to fully inform the couple in question of other options?
> 
> Or is it just same-old same-old in this wonderful republic of ours?



Because that was not the question before the court and the judge made no findings as to the competence or otherwise of the adviser.


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## DebtCert (12 Nov 2014)

The Independent is carrying a story on this today.




> Paul Carroll of Neo Financial Solutions  is himself a bankrupt, but insists he gave good advice to the couple from Cavan.The couple were advised to file for bankruptcy over debts of just €12,000.
> 
> 
> In  court the couple claimed they were misled by their financial adviser.  The court was told they should never have been declared bankrupt in the  first place.
> In what was a first move of its type since the new  bankruptcy laws have come into being, Ms Justice Caroline Costello made  orders annulling the bankruptcy of the couple.


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## Steven Barrett (12 Nov 2014)

This is the crux of the matter



> But a gap in the law means that people can advise on bankruptcy without the need to be regulated by either the Central Bank or the Insolvency Service.



Anyone can open an office and call themselves a bankruptcy expert. 



Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Nov 2014)

Interesting background about him: 



> He said he is a qualified accountant - but admitted he was not on any  register of accountants. Mr Carroll said he had resigned from the  Association of Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA).
> 
> 
> But in a  statement the accountancy body said his membership had been removed a  number of times. "Mr Carroll was once more removed from membership on 19  May 2014, following ACCA being made aware of Mr Carroll's bankruptcy,"  the ACCA said.
> ...


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## Steve Thatcher (12 Nov 2014)

SBarrett said:


> This is the crux of the matter
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Therein is your whole problem. In Ireland you could do a two day course, pay an insurance premium and become an "insolvency expert" in a state which had no history of insolvency measures apart from the unending bankruptcy.

Is it any wonder when you have a regime where the lenders have no idea what they are doing coupled with a system which would let anyone who sat a two day course be "qualified" that people get ill advised.

The Jim Stafford's of the world must shake their heads at this. What's the point Jim, when the local mortgage advisor can be a "bankruptcy expert". At least we are here to clear up the crap when it hits the fan.

Steve Thatcher


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## Brendan Burgess (12 Nov 2014)

Steve Thatcher said:


> In Ireland you could do a two day course, pay an insurance premium and become an "insolvency expert" in a state which had no history of insolvency measures apart from the unending bankruptcy.



Where is the requirement to do a two day course? 

Why do you have to pay an insurance premium? 

It's odd that it's very difficult to become authorised as a debt advisor, but you can give bankruptcy advice without regulation. (Is this correct?) 

Come to think of it, he is probably limited to recommending bankruptcy as the Central Bank would prosecute him if he gave debt advice.

On reading the article, he claims that he is exempt from regulation as an accountant. I suspect that will be challenged by the Central Bank, although the whole area is very vague. 

Brendan


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## Steven Barrett (12 Nov 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Where is the requirement to do a two day course?
> 
> Why do you have to pay an insurance premium?
> 
> ...



A friend of mine is a debt advisor and it is incredibly difficult to get authorisation. There is a huge amount of paperwork to go through to get regulated.

If you go to someone for financial advise, make sure they are regulated by the Central Bank. They have to display their authorisation in their office/ boardroom. If they don't, ask to see a copy. To become authorised, there is a thorough vetting and you have to submit a cv along with a ton of other paperwork. If you aren't qualified to do the job, you won't get your authorisation.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Steve Thatcher (12 Nov 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Where is the requirement to do a two day course?
> 
> Why do you have to pay an insurance premium?
> 
> ...



That is you the whole problem isn't it. You had to get "qualified" to be a PIP, now it seems anyone is giving advice. My problem other than the idiots offering unqualified advice, is the two day qualified PIPs also giving advice.

In my opinion the only people really qualified to advise the insolvent in Ireland are those who have been doing it for years, not weeks, such is Jim Stafford.

In my opinion unless you have real experience going back years you are winging it. That is being borne out now.

despite 20 years experience of bankruptcy here and in Ireland I wasn't "qualified " to offer advice to irish debtors, yet anyone living in Ireland, who had paid for a two day course could.

I ask you, who is the real "expert"

Steve Thatcher


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## epicaricacy (12 Nov 2014)

Steve Thatcher said:


> In my opinion the only people really qualified to advise the insolvent in Ireland are those who have been doing it for years, not weeks, such is Jim Stafford.
> 
> If someone is qualified, then someone is qualified. It seems as if this guy was neither qualified nor registered. There are always going to be rogue elements in every industry / profession that look to exploit people that are in a vulnerable position. I.M.O. the tendency to exploit others has more to do with the person's character / personality as opposed to his / her relevant qualifications / experience.


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## dereko1969 (13 Nov 2014)

Well, why I might have jumped the gun in my initial post, and apologies Tommy I wasn't having a go at financial advisers, I'm glad that the media followed up on who supplied the advice. At least it should make people more aware of looking for experience in the field.


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## Steven Barrett (13 Nov 2014)

Steve

Why don't you go on the 2 day course and get the qualification? 

I have the QFA because, despite it being a low level qualification, it is what is required. 

No point in standing outside the tent and yelling that you should be allowed inside when all you have to do is buy a ticket. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Steve Thatcher (13 Nov 2014)

SBarrett said:


> Steve
> 
> Why don't you go on the 2 day course and get the qualification?
> 
> ...



I would have but was not allowed because I was not resident in Ireland.
Just seems to me that there are too many people who are providing advice, when they simply aren't experienced enough to do it. That has the knock on effect of diminishing the qualification for everyone, and the public can have little comfort that they are getting the right advice for their money.

Steve


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## T McGibney (13 Nov 2014)

Steve Thatcher said:


> I would have but was not allowed because I was not resident in Ireland.



That particular requirement must surely be a breach of EU law?


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## 2521CG (13 Nov 2014)

I've been receiving advice from the person mentioned in the news articles, to the point where we've completed a voluntary sale and the loss crystallised at approx. 120k (+@8% pa). I'm very alarmed at the story. Do I proceed based on their advice or do I try negotiate myself with the bank now?


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Nov 2014)

It might be no harm to get a second opinion. 

Did the lender agree to do a deal on the shortfall?


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## 2521CG (13 Nov 2014)

No deal agreed prior to voluntary sale of house (PTSB). Advice provided was to sell to crystallise the loss and then start negotiating with bank. The bank only offered up a voluntary sale option after the SFS was assessed.


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## 44brendan (13 Nov 2014)

Unfortunately as voluntary sale has completed you are now left with a poor negotiating position. You have a 120k residual debt and as you have provided no detail on your financial circumstances it is not possible to give any broad advice on how this can be addressed. 
2nd opinion is advisable as per commentary by BB.


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## Brendan Burgess (13 Nov 2014)

2521CG said:


> No deal agreed prior to voluntary sale of house (PTSB). Advice provided was to sell to crystallise the loss and then start negotiating with bank. The bank only offered up a voluntary sale option after the SFS was assessed.



ptsb is one of only two banks doing deals on how the shortfall will be treated after a voluntary sale of a person's home. 

I don't know the circumstances of this case, but my general advice is not to agree a sale until a deal is done on the shortfall. 

Brendan


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## robe (30 Jul 2015)

I too was told by ptsb to sell my btl. To crystallise the loss and that a deal could be done then. I realised a loss of €170,000 when the property changed hands in November,  I had to resubmit the sfs and supporting documentation.. but still I'm waiting on a decision from ptsb.
I expect that the next thing I will hear is that the information I submitted is out of date and I have to submit again.


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