# "Irish prices among highest in EU"



## bugler (13 Sep 2011)

Article in the IT today: [broken link removed]



> Irish consumers are still paying almost 20 per cent more than the  European average for goods and services, despite a drop in inflation,  according to the latest figures from Central Statistics Office (CSO).
> 
> Consumer prices fell in 2010 but remained high by EU standards. Ireland  was the fifth most expensive EU state in 2010, after *Denmark, Finland,  Luxembourg and Sweden*, with prices 18 per cent above the EU average.


That is strange company for Ireland to be keeping on any table. Is it odd for a country with 14%+ unemployment to be so expensive? Or is it a case that there is a "lag" effect and prices will continue to fall?

What is the cause of goods and services being so expensive here? Wage demands, fuelled by a still too high cost of shelter?

The full CSO report can be found here: [broken link removed]


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## Purple (13 Sep 2011)

Costs are high so wages are high.
Those costs are; wages, rates and utilities etc.


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## DerKaiser (13 Sep 2011)

High costs and lack of competitiveness will continue as long as those on higher than average salaries (relative to other countries) continue to argue that these salaries are appropriate due to the higher costs.  The situation suits them.

There are plenty of cynical people who recognise that if general costs are 20% higher than OECD averages they will have less problem justifying their wage being 50% above average.  Others again are naive and don't actually understand such wages are the only real cause of our living costs.


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## Ryandd (13 Sep 2011)

It comes as no surprise that we have been shown as the 5th highest cost of living country, and I read an article not so long ago to say that under contract bankers will have their bonus payment resumed, I understood the government done away with this! Cost of living utilities fuel extra charges being introduced ie water, property tax, its never ending and for so many unemployed I hear media discuss how we have the highest social welfare payments, but realistically 180 pw in this country won't get you very far.  So anyone lucky enough to hold their jobs I understand you suffering increase in tax and reduction in credits and having to endure uncertainty every day.  I was there not so long ago until I was made redundant and it is the worst feeling for me.  Cost of living is extreamly high just covering bills and mortgages.


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## browtal (13 Sep 2011)

Until we line up with other countries and have comparative salaries we are going to experience job losses through our lack of competition.
Does our Taoiseach still earn more than the US President. 
It is time we got out on the streets and made our feelings known. The current round of offers of retirement pay offers are very disturbing. These conditions were laid down in different times, as percieved by the politicians.  They have reduced wages last year, we need another round of cuts to bring the public sector in line with the Private sector.  I suppose many of the public sector will be invited back, next year,  when there is no one to fill their positions.
Browtal


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## Sunny (13 Sep 2011)

Out of curioristy, how many people here are willing to admit they are overpaid compared to people doing the same job in other Countries? Why is all the attention on public sector? I work in the private sector by the way. Willing to bet that the vast majority of AAM contributors are overpaid compared to their European colleagues so we should stop the sanctimonious rubbish of pretending it is a public sector problem.


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## serotoninsid (14 Sep 2011)

Sunny said:


> Out of curioristy, how many people here are willing to admit they are overpaid compared to people doing the same job in other Countries? Why is all the attention on public sector? I work in the private sector by the way. Willing to bet that the vast majority of AAM contributors are overpaid compared to their European colleagues so we should stop the sanctimonious rubbish of pretending it is a public sector problem.


That's not an argument NOT to tackle this.  If public sector rates are higher than the euro equivalent, then nobody can justify this issue not being tackled.

I'm in the private sector - and I definitely am not above the euro average.  However, I appreciate that there are others who are - but nobody could possibly say that this is to the same extent as the public sector.  In general, the private sector reacts to market forces in every aspect of business (including pay rates).  The public sector does  not - and we all know it's the elephant in the room - that neither the previous administration or the present one are prepared to tackle.


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## PaddyW (14 Sep 2011)

I imagine I might be above the European average, but I work 55-59 hour weeks so this may balance it out.


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## Chris (14 Sep 2011)

Sunny said:


> Out of curioristy, how many people here are willing to admit they are overpaid compared to people doing the same job in other Countries? Why is all the attention on public sector? I work in the private sector by the way. Willing to bet that the vast majority of AAM contributors are overpaid compared to their European colleagues so we should stop the sanctimonious rubbish of pretending it is a public sector problem.


Very good point Sunny, wages in Ireland in both the public and private sector are too high in many areas. But there are certain areas where I think wages are quite competitive. I work in the IT industry and have been since '98, which means I have seen the huge effects of volatility of salaries and availability of work twice in 13 years. I know for certain that I would earn more if I moved to Dublin or London, and on average most IT work in Germany, Austria and Switzerland would be higher paid (not considering taxation here). 
The very accessible competition from India, China, and now Indonesia and the Philippines has also had an effect on IT wage rates in Europe and the US. Basically I am in competition with people around the world which means I have to constantly improve my work and provide better quality, so that I don't justify my job going to someone lower paid in the far east.



PaddyW said:


> I imagine I might be above the European average, but I work 55-59 hour weeks so this may balance it out.



Just out of interest, do your European counterparts put in less hours? You make a good point though, higher income is only warranted by higher productivity.


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## Firefly (14 Sep 2011)

Chris said:


> I work in the IT industry and have been since '98, which means I have seen the huge effects of volatility of salaries and availability of work twice in 13 years. I know for certain that I would earn more if I moved to Dublin or London, and on average most IT work in Germany, Austria and Switzerland would be higher paid (not considering taxation here).



As someone who also works in IT (for a year longer that you newbie!) I can confirm that contract rates in the UK in my line of  work are a little bit higher than what I earn here. I don't have the data for the rest of Europe but from conversations with other contractors over the years the rates in the countries you mention plus The Netherlands would be higher IMO.


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## onq (14 Sep 2011)

We've discussed this point recently in relation to Architects and found general agreement that you can only so low based on your personal income needs.
The assumption that market forces and price are the only factors involved in a cost is incorrect - value added factors are important and may outweigh cost.
In particular accessibility and quality of service seems to be holding up prices in countries where the cost of living - and therefore prices generally - are higher.

On of the professional costs, third level education, seems to have gone from a vocation to an industry and now we see monetarist arguments against adequate remuneration for those who have invested time and money in achieving their qualifications and experience.

It seems logical that if professionals like me were to take the cost-cutting issue to heart  we'd be sending our kids to Indian universities to study instead of  paying the fees that are likely to be introduced here or the  extortionate ones that are already introduced in Britain.

We've already seen anecdotal TV Reports that India solicitors offer legal services into Britain at a fraction of the cost of British lawyers.

And the benefit of being thought in places like India, Russia, China or Brazil is that these are emerging economies with huge potential for the growth of new enterprises and new middle income earners in the next ten to twenty years, both sectors which seek professional services.

ONQ.


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## csirl (14 Sep 2011)

Annual salary comparisons are irrelevent red herrings. Irish workers work longer hours and have less holidays that the majority of EU workers. So you would expect their annual salaries to be higher. Employee cost per hour of productive work i.e. including costs associated with holidays/benefits, would be a fairer comparison - I'm sure that we're not that much higher than the EU average when compared this way.


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## Chris (14 Sep 2011)

onq said:


> We've discussed this point recently in relation to Architects and found general agreement that you can only so low based on your personal income needs.
> The assumption that market forces and price are the only factors involved in a cost is incorrect - value added factors are important and may outweigh cost.


You may personally only accept offers above a certain amount for whatever reasons, but that does not mean that those buying your services would or should pay an amount above that. Prices are purely the result of supply and demand, nothing else. Prices may differ for certain more or less identical things, but then the subjective valuation of the demand side decides what has higher value.
You are correct though that costs are not directly set by market forces of supply and demand for the actual product. But if you cannot bring costs down to offer a price that is closer to the market equilibrium price, then you are unfortunately out of business.



onq said:


> In particular accessibility and quality of service seems to be holding up prices in countries where the cost of living - and therefore prices generally - are higher.


This is in many ways correct. The more that laws and regulations dictate who and how many people can practice certain professions, the higher the cost of those services and products are going to be. I work in IT, there is absolutely no rule or regulation that says you have to have a certain qualification to be a programmer. I know many people that are extremely good and successful programmers who never set foot inside a university. There is no reason that this cannot be applied to other professions, including your own.



onq said:


> On of the professional costs, third level education, seems to have gone from a vocation to an industry and now we see monetarist arguments against adequate remuneration for those who have invested time and money in achieving their qualifications and experience.
> 
> It seems logical that if professionals like me were to take the cost-cutting issue to heart  we'd be sending our kids to Indian universities to study instead of  paying the fees that are likely to be introduced here or the  extortionate ones that are already introduced in Britain.
> 
> ...


Some very good points in there. My daughter is not even two yet, but if she were of university going age now I would encourage her to go to university in the far east. Global competition is a good thing, as it drives prices down, freeing up capital and resources to do other things.


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## Chris (14 Sep 2011)

csirl said:


> Annual salary comparisons are irrelevent red herrings. Irish workers work longer hours and have less holidays that the majority of EU workers. So you would expect their annual salaries to be higher. Employee cost per hour of productive work i.e. including costs associated with holidays/benefits, would be a fairer comparison - I'm sure that we're not that much higher than the EU average when compared this way.



I agree that hourly rates are a more accurate measure, but I do not believe that people in Ireland work longer hours in general. Certainly when compared to France's 35 hour work week, but the normal working day in Germany and Austria for example is 8 to 5, not 9 to 5, and in most professions overtime is just something you do.


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## PaddyW (14 Sep 2011)

Chris said:


> Just out of interest, do your European counterparts put in less hours? You make a good point though, higher income is only warranted by higher productivity.


 
Hi Chris, yes they would do a 37.5 hour week as far as I'm aware.


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## Firefly (14 Sep 2011)

onq said:


> On of the professional costs, third level education, seems to have gone from a vocation to an industry and now we see monetarist arguments against adequate remuneration for those who have invested time and money in achieving their qualifications and experience.
> ONQ.



Hi ONQ, 
As has been pointed out before it all comes down to supply & demand. If the demand isn't there or is very low then the price will fall. Some can operate at the lower price, others can't and will either close or seek other work. Professional institutes are pretty good at restricting the supply in the first place so that even when demand is low prices can still be high. GPs would be a good example here. I suspect that's what's behind the recent moves by your own governing body the RIAI to restrict the use of the term "Architect". I doubt it is to protect the consumer rather than to limit the supply in the first place whereby those "architects" can command a higher fee.


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## onq (14 Sep 2011)

The RIAI are not my governing body Firefly - following my impending Registration application but not yet.
Many of us who weren't Members of the Institute know the restriction on use of the title position that the BCA 2007 brought in.
If you want to discover more on this issue read my contributions to the debates over on http://www.archiseek.com - I post as ONQ other there also.

ONQ.


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## onq (14 Sep 2011)

As for the market, it does not all come down to supply and demand.
If that were the case all the people in one jurisdiction would be driving Ladas or suchlike.

The truth is far more complex.
Different people supply different goods at different prices.
There is not just one market for even one good or service, but several.

And sometimes these differences are perceived and not actual and prices can go higher!
That's good marketing and product differentiation - think of the Müller yoghurt ads with Joanna Lumley.

Most business customers understand that others have to live and to make enough today to continue in business.
And most layperson consumers aren't so bloody minded as to expect people to beggar themselves.
Their own children may be seeking employment in such businesses so there is a balance struck.
Thinking about economics in some idealized impersonal way is where monetarists fail.

In terms of the professions, apart from familial issues, most are mobile and their professional competences are transferable.
Sometimes prices don't even fall to near to the break even level - its easier to supply a different product or service or relocate.
The aftermath of driving professionals to relocate or to  supply other products is that when the market recovers there are shortages.
And this sends the cost of professional services skyward again - so  there is a benefit in not pile-driving professional fees through the  floor.

The same thing occurs in a recovering retail market, where accumulated  profits can help weather the lean times, but then sales prices rise with  the market to recoup losses.
This is part of the drivers of rapidly rising prices that can follow a  recessionary period - retailers and the like trying to claw back their  missing profits from the lean years.

ONQ.


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## Firefly (14 Sep 2011)

onq said:


> The RIAI are not my governing body Firefly - following my impending Registration application but not yet.
> Many of us who weren't Members of the Institute know the restriction on use of the title position that the BCA 2007 brought in.
> If you want to discover more on this issue read my contributions to the debates over on http://www.archiseek.com - I post as ONQ other there also.
> 
> ONQ.



Hi ONQ,
I know you have raised issues in the past regarding the term "Architect" and I didn't intend to bring any attention to the use of this by qualified and experienced architects like your goodself. My point is that the reason I suspect that the RIAI are bringing this in at all is to restrict the supply of what it deems as "architects" to protect their pay. It was just an example like so many others such as GPs, accountants, solicitors...even taxi drivers want the number of licenses reduced...all to reduce competition and keep/raise prices. Of course the official lines from all these bodies is that quality for the customer can be assured, but would they and at what cost?


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## Firefly (14 Sep 2011)

onq said:


> As for the market, it does not all come down to supply and demand.
> If that were the case all the people in one jurisdiction would be driving Ladas or suchlike.
> 
> The truth is far more complex.
> ...



I totally agree. The fact though, in the case of architects (as we are discussing this now) at the moment, is that the majority of work out there (and I could be wrong) is for _relatively _minor projects such as a house extension. As most architects could provide this service and there's little other work, then the consumer can expect to get a good deal by pricing around. I'm sure there are some fantastic architectural projects out there at the moment, perhaps not in Ireland but abroad where architects can demand huge fees. Again though, you would expect there to be fierce competition where *the best architect for the best price *gets the job. If the best architect comes in too high then they won't get the work.



onq said:


> And sometimes these differences are perceived and not actual and prices can go higher!
> That's good marketing and product differentiation - think of the Müller yoghurt ads with Joanna Lumley.



Absolutely agree. Marketing is a phenominal tool. All you have to do is look at Apple. The iPhone, the iPad, the iPod all sell for a premium over other equally good  rivals. The thing is though, Apple can still only charge so much. If the iPad was 2,000 euro for example they would still sell some but they would lose money due to reduced sales. To further complicate this, Apple could actually drop the price of the iPad by a lot and sell perhaps 5 times as many units. This would probably increase profits now, but they would lose their core customer who wants something relatively exclusive. The same would apply to Rolex....they could I'm sure knock a third off their watches and make a fortune this year. The problem is that all those who were happy to buy into the exclusivity of having a Rolex next year and the years after will start buying something else. 



onq said:


> Most business customers understand that others have to live and to make enough today to continue in business.
> And most layperson consumers aren't so bloody minded as to expect people to beggar themselves.
> Their own children may be seeking employment in such businesses so there is a balance struck.
> Thinking about economics in some idealized impersonal way is where monetarists fail.



I agree with this. No-one expects something for nothing. However, if I can buy the same product somewhere else for cheaper then I would be mad not to at least consider it. Again, it's back to the best product/service for the best price (or what I can afford).




onq said:


> In terms of the professions, apart from familial issues, most are mobile and their professional competences are transferable.
> Sometimes prices don't even fall to near to the break even level - its easier to supply a different product or service or relocate.
> The aftermath of driving professionals to relocate or to  supply other products is that when the market recovers there are shortages.
> And this sends the cost of professional services skyward again - so  there is a benefit in not pile-driving professional fees through the  floor.



This is the nature of any business. In my own area, I have worked with various different programming languages / operating systems / database vendors over the years based on the demand from my clients...it's ever changing. If IT went down the tubes tomorrow I would happily re-train and do something else (sometimes I wish it did!). 

If and when prices go skyward again as you mention, this will have the effect of attracting more entrants...all you have to do it look at the changes in CAO points as students chase what they perceive to be where the jobs will be. It's all very natural. I appreciate the time and effort put into something like architecture, but unless the work is out there your options are grim (for now). It's a call each and every architect needs to make - do they ride it out or do something else. The answer will vary depending on personal  circumstances (age, health, wealth etc). However, back to my earlier point, by defining the term "architect" the RIAI will end up protecting rates of pay to what they deem to be "architects" as they will now be branding them as a higher quality product. The increase in rates will depend on what higher quality the public will put on this

Phew!


The same thing occurs in a recovering retail market, where accumulated  profits can help weather the lean times, but then sales prices rise with  the market to recoup losses.
This is part of the drivers of rapidly rising prices that can follow a  recessionary period - retailers and the like trying to claw back their  missing profits from the lean years.

ONQ.[/QUOTE]


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## T McGibney (14 Sep 2011)

Firefly said:


> . It was just an example like so many others such as GPs, *accountants*, solicitors...even taxi drivers want the number of licenses reduced...all to reduce competition and keep/raise prices. Of course the official lines from all these bodies is that quality for the customer can be assured, but would they and at what cost?



You don't need a licence to operate as an accountant. You don't even need a qualification. You don't even need to be literate. Bertie Ahern called himself an accountant because he had worked for a while in the Mater Hospital accounts dept.


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## Mpsox (14 Sep 2011)

There are other reasons for high prices in Ireland which often get forgotton

Firstly, the fact that we are an island nation means that the cost of importing goods can be more expensive. It's not like on the continent where something can be driven down a few hundred miles down the autobahn

Secondly, VAT is quite high and higher then the UK. Also there is a plethero of stealth taxes that drive up costs

There is also the fact that our main trading partner is outside the € zone. Any company in the UK exporting to Ireland will factor in a charge for currency risk. That drvies up the price of many branded foodstuffs, magazines etc etc

Also our main retailers are UK companies(Tescos, Marks etc), indeed it is becoming harder to differentiate between a British high street and an Irish one. Again, many of these retailers will have factored in a currency risk

Lastly, prices are high because during the Celtic Tiger years, as a nation we were stupid enough to accept high prices, we didn't shop around and didn't try to bargain prices down. It's been documented for example, that some UK retailers in Ireland operate at a higher margin then they do in the UK. Why? because for years, we were dumb enough to pay the prices


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## Firefly (14 Sep 2011)

T McGibney said:


> You don't need a licence to operate as an accountant. You don't even need a qualification. You don't even need to be literate. Bertie Ahern called himself an accountant because he had worked for a while in the Mater Hospital accounts dept.



I agree for most things, but surely you need to be an "accountant" to sign off on company accounts for PLCs and the like? The  term "accountant" is also now protected if I am correct. You can't call yourself an accountant unless you are qualified.


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## Firefly (14 Sep 2011)

More on this here

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]
https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/General/News-and-Events/News1

/2007/April/ICAI-welcomes-IAASA-determination-on-use-of-term-accountant-/


Perhaps someone in the industry could confirm the current status re: calling yourself an accountant?


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## onq (14 Sep 2011)

Firefly said:


> Hi ONQ,
> I know you have raised issues in the past regarding the term "Architect" and I didn't intend to bring any attention to the use of this by qualified and experienced architects like your goodself. My point is that the reason I suspect that the RIAI are bringing this in at all is to restrict the supply of what it deems as "architects" to protect their pay. It was just an example like so many others such as GPs, accountants, solicitors...even taxi drivers want the number of licenses reduced...all to reduce competition and keep/raise prices. Of course the official lines from all these bodies is that quality for the customer can be assured, but would they and at what cost?



No problem - I know what you meant Firefly and I happen to agree.
I was just directing you - and anyone who was interested in reading a commentary - to Archiseek, as opposed to rehashing it here.

Suffice it to say that Registration was seen by non-members as a land-grab by the RIAI, a means of restricting competition by non-members.
They countered by suggesting that registration offered assurance to members of the public by showing that recently qualified architects had reached a certain standard of competence.
Non-members of more than 10 years standing pointed out that they didn't need to be members of an institute to offer assurance - their ten years and more of work was the proof of their competence.

ONQ


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## onq (14 Sep 2011)

T McGibney said:


> You don't need a licence to operate as an accountant. You don't even need a qualification. You don't even need to be literate. Bertie Ahern called himself an accountant because he had worked for a while in the Mater Hospital accounts dept.




LOL! I didn't know that about Bertie!

I think you need to be a chartered accountant to sign off on accounts.

ONQ.


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## onq (14 Sep 2011)

An awful lot of titles in that link Firefly.

1. Association of Chartered Certified Accountants (ACCA)
2. Institute of Chartered Accountants in England & Wales (ICAEW)
3. Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland (ICAI)
4. Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland (ICAS)
5. Institute of Certified Public Accountants in Ireland (ICPAI)
6. Institute of Incorporated Public Accountants (IIPA)

I think the two basic ones are

Certified Public Accountant - USA

Chartered Accountant - UK


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## blackgold (14 Sep 2011)

*highest prices*

Did we need the CSO to tell us that we have some of the highest prices for goods in Europe? No ..just try doing the grocery shopping


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## bugler (15 Sep 2011)

blackgold said:


> Did we need the CSO to tell us that we have some of the highest prices for goods in Europe? No ..just try doing the grocery shopping



Unless you also do grocery shopping elsewhere in the EU that won't tell you much. 

I was mostly curious about the relationship, if any, between unemployment and prices. Among the countries above us in unemployment levels are Latvia and Lithuania. I have never been to either, but I assume both countries are pretty cheap to live in (by our standards). Again, without making commentary on the varying levels of earnings between the countries. 

A top 5 of Denmark, Finland,  Luxembourg, Sweden, and Ireland struck me as bizarre.


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## Chris (15 Sep 2011)

onq said:


> As for the market, it does not all come down to supply and demand.
> If that were the case all the people in one jurisdiction would be driving Ladas or suchlike.
> 
> The truth is far more complex.
> ...


You are both right and wrong here.
First of all, prices are the result of supply and demand and nothing else. On the supply side a producer puts a certain subjective value on a product. On the demand side a buyer does the same and both try and meet at an agreeable point. Some people may be quite happy to pay more for a product produced in a certain location or a certain way while others just want the cheapest product. It is all entirely subjective.
You are right though about the whole thing being extremely complex, with even similar products essentially being very different. Prices differ from location to location based on the subjective valuations of individuals. The average, which we often see quoted in market prices of raw materials or share prices, is just that, an average of millions or even billions of subjective individual decisions. This is precisely why an economy and the prices of its products cannot be managed by a central organisation, it is simply too complex.



onq said:


> And sometimes these differences are perceived and not actual and prices can go higher!
> That's good marketing and product differentiation - think of the Müller yoghurt ads with Joanna Lumley.


Yes, marketing is designed to distinguish your product from others and make it stand out in some way or another. But all that results in, is that initially very similar products, like yoghourt, are essentially being devided into different products altogether. The people that buy Müller yoghurt probably don't care too much about Tesco's own brand and vice versa. But this is the beauty of an open and free market where peope are totally free to decide what they perceive as good and bad value, and then vote on this by either buying or not buying.



onq said:


> Most business customers understand that others have to live and to make enough today to continue in business.
> And most layperson consumers aren't so bloody minded as to expect people to beggar themselves.
> Their own children may be seeking employment in such businesses so there is a balance struck.


People decide on what they are willing to pay for a product based on what they can afford. Some may feel generous, compassionate or charitable to pay more, but that does not generally come into the decision making process. Look at LCD TVs for example. The price of these has been driven down ever more in recent years (a 40" TV cost €10,000 just ten years ago, and can be bought now for about €500), but this has been a good thing for producers of TVs and has made many many more jobs available for the workers who make them. It has also been tremendously good for the general public especially poorer people who never were able to afford such things. This is the power of supply and demand in a competitive market.
Using your argumentation we would be better off paying more for these items to ensure that workers possibly get a higher wage in the future, when the exact opposite is true. The price of a product in isolation does not dictate the wage of the worker. What dictates the wage of the worker is the profitability of the employer, and employers generally are more profitable the more products they sell.
Your argument of "overpaying" for a certain product then also ignores that some other business will lose out. For example, let's say I need a table and rather than pay €100 I pay €150 for the reasons you outline. This means that I have €50 less to spend on something else, like a lamp to put on the table. The action has essentially reduced the need for lamp makers. Overpaying for goods drives up the average price which has the most detrimental effect to the poorer people in society who cannot match those prices.



onq said:


> Thinking about economics in some idealized impersonal way is where monetarists fail.


You are using the term monetarists wrong here. Monetarism is a monetary theory and not one of price or supply and demand.



onq said:


> In terms of the professions, apart from familial issues, most are mobile and their professional competences are transferable.
> Sometimes prices don't even fall to near to the break even level - its easier to supply a different product or service or relocate.
> The aftermath of driving professionals to relocate or to  supply other products is that when the market recovers there are shortages.
> And this sends the cost of professional services skyward again - so  there is a benefit in not pile-driving professional fees through the  floor.
> ...


Very good points here, but you have to bear in mind that it is mostly government intervention that massively drives up needs for certain professions. An obvious example in this country would be engineers, architect, bricklayers, etc. In my own profession IT, it was the Y2K and easy money policy in the late 90s that drove the "need" for IT professionals through the roof. It was a good thing that this was corrected, and it was a good thing that no artificial demand was created in the IT industry after the bust; the industry very quickly recovered and lots of people retooled.
Essentially the problem is not the now low demand, the problem is the artificially increased demand.


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## Firefly (16 Sep 2011)

Chris said:


> In my own profession IT, it was the Y2K and easy money policy in the late 90s that drove the "need" for IT professionals through the roof. It was a good thing that this was corrected, and it was a good thing that no artificial demand was created in the IT industry after the bust; the industry very quickly recovered and lots of people retooled.
> Essentially the problem is not the now low demand, the problem is the artificially increased demand.



I think there's a valuable lesson here. After Y2K a lot of people who were never really that good at IT lost their job and as you say went into different lines of work. College courses were also dropped as fewer students wanted to study computer science. This I believe had the effect of keeping the better IT professionals in the industry and attracting those students who really wanted to study computer science at 3rd level rather than those just chasing a decent salary. I expect the same will happen to architecture and engineering. You can see the CAO points for these courses has dropped already.


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## onq (17 Sep 2011)

Well this is it.

Although I have argued in support of reasonable returns for work done the fact is that only people with a vocation-like dedication to architecture will stay in it.
I expect a fallout rate of at least 50% from last year's population of 2,750 - some of those who leave the profession some will leave Ireland.

Of those who remain in the profession, many will leave for the Middle East, Oz or New Zealand.
Most of the rest who remain here will do so because of family commitments.

The most dedicated of those will survive and some will prosper.


ONQ.


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