# why is it so hard here for people to do the decent thing??



## NOAH (3 Aug 2010)

We seem to live in a country with no integrity in all disciplines, eg religious, legal,  accountancy,  political, medical, construction, etc etc.

Why is it so hard for people who should know better not to do the decent thing?  All the actions that are reported are scary but no one ever, ever, gets punished!!

 I find it depressing and ashamed that we could stand by and let the country develop as it has for what???  

And each day we are met with more and more revelations about how certain individiuals are reaping the financial benefits that they themselves must know they are in no way entitled to.  How can they live with themselves and see the majority of their compatriots suffer?  What an example to set for the youth!!

noah


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## RMCF (3 Aug 2010)

Because lets be honest, its all about money, money, money.

The likes of Ivor Callely and all the MPs/TDs we have heard about in recent times always come out with the "I wasnt breaking the rules, everything I applied for I was entitled to" line disguised the fact that they really shouldn't have been doign what they were doing if they had any morals at all. 

Sometimes you don't have to try to claim for everything you can, perhaps just what you need.

But as you hinted at, there are people like these at all levels of our society, and its often the incredibly wealthy who know how best to play the system.


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## shnaek (4 Aug 2010)

We live in a rights based "society" which has thrown responsibility out the window.


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## Purple (4 Aug 2010)

shnaek said:


> We live in a rights based "society" which has thrown responsibility out the window.



Excellent point. 

We don't have any real understanding that there is a contract between the state and the individual that confers rights and responsibilities, or duties, on both.
The state has failed the individual (corruption and incompetence on the part of politicians and public servants, massive waste of tax payers money, criminal justice system that doesn't punish the guilty etc) and many individuals have failed the state (corruption, tax evasion, general criminality etc).
We have no civic pride and regard those that do in other countries with derision.


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## mtk (4 Aug 2010)

There is no sense of personal morality or integrity  here . sad but true


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## Caveat (4 Aug 2010)

Purple said:


> We have no civic pride and regard those that do in other countries with derision.


 
Funny, OT I know, but I was reading a great book recently; _The Truth_ _About The Irish _and the author was making this very point. His theory was that the Irish sometimes behave as though the country isn't theirs simply because for a long time, it wasn't.

Reminds me of a difference someone once pointed out between the English and Irish: An Englishman will _say_ what he wants but always _do_ the right thing; an Irishman will _do_ what he wants but always _say_ the right thing.


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## Green (4 Aug 2010)

Purple said:


> The state has failed the individual (corruption and incompetence on the part of politicians and public servants, massive waste of tax payers money, criminal justice system that doesn't punish the guilty etc) and many individuals have failed the state (corruption, tax evasion, general criminality etc). We have no civic pride and regard those that do in other countries with derision.


 
I agree with this and for evidence look at paragraph 19 on page 70 of the McCracken Tribunal report on Michael Lowry, then look at the number of votes he got in the 97, 2002 and 2007 elections..hard to be outraged about Callely when Lowry never spent even one second behind bars...


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## Complainer (4 Aug 2010)

shnaek said:


> We live in a rights based "society" which has thrown responsibility out the window.


Tell that to the many people with disabilities in Ireland who have effectively no rights to decent medical treatment, education or access to general public services.


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## Purple (4 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> Tell that to the many people with disabilities in Ireland who have effectively no rights to decent medical treatment, education or access to general public services.


They have got rights but often the services just aren't up to scratch. That's due to incompetence and bad allocation of resources rather than lack of resources.


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## pinkyBear (4 Aug 2010)

What I can't understand about the callaly case, is why the reciepts were not checked? At work if we claim expenses, all of our reciepts must be supplied and they are checked...


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## Sunny (4 Aug 2010)

pinkyBear said:


> What I can't understand about the callaly case, is why the reciepts were not checked? At work if we claim expenses, all of our reciepts must be supplied and they are checked...


 
Ah but you see, you are making the mistake of comparing yourself to a politician. They can't be expected to worry about things like receipts and stuff. That's just crazy. They are busy doing important legislative work.


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## pinkyBear (4 Aug 2010)

Sunny said:


> Ah but you see, you are making the mistake of comparing yourself to a politician. They can't be expected to worry about things like receipts and stuff. That's just crazy. They are busy doing important legislative work.


 I know, I know... I'm sure though a public service worker is assigned to sign off on expences, where are their auditing procedures.

I work in the private sector, and lets be fair, our company had to address expenses, as there were issues with a section of the company putting in mad expenses.. So the reality is where people can get away with stuff, they will try, politician or not..

I just cant see why there were no controls, or checks. Now I am not for a second condoning what Callaly did, he knew he could get away with it...


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## shnaek (4 Aug 2010)

Purple said:


> We don't have any real understanding that there is a contract between the state and the individual that confers rights and responsibilities, or duties, on both.
> The state has failed the individual (corruption and incompetence on the part of politicians and public servants, massive waste of tax payers money, criminal justice system that doesn't punish the guilty etc) and many individuals have failed the state (corruption, tax evasion, general criminality etc).
> We have no civic pride and regard those that do in other countries with derision.



That sums it up in one. And in those rare pockets where you do see civic pride it really shines through - by virtue of the fact it is so rare here. 

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country - though we live in different times now, and as you pointed out neither side does much for the other these days.


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## shnaek (4 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> Tell that to the many people with disabilities in Ireland who have effectively no rights to decent medical treatment, education or access to general public services.


They have every right to decent medical treatment etc. just as we all have the right to decent services, but those with responsibility to provide it have left us down.


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## boris (4 Aug 2010)

YOBR said:


> I agree with this and for evidence look at paragraph 19 on page 70 of the McCracken Tribunal report on Michael Lowry, then look at the number of votes he got in the 97, 2002 and 2007 elections..hard to be outraged about Callely when Lowry never spent even one second behind bars...


 
Have to say that I used to live in that constituency. While I never voted for the man, he and his cohorts (i.e. councilllors loyal to him) were streets ahead of his fellow politicians for getting things done on a community and personal basis. 

If there was any event that had a gang of politicians jumping on the bandwagon, most of the time he genuinely deserved to be there. The other thing was (from what I heard) he kept in touch with matters whereas the rest of the politicians around that area would deal with things in the first instance and then bugger off. 

Like I said I never voted for him but from all accounts he got things done! (Not that anything he done wrong should be forgiven because of his constituency work!!!!!)


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## Complainer (4 Aug 2010)

shnaek said:


> They have every right to decent medical treatment etc. just as we all have the right to decent services, but those with responsibility to provide it have left us down.



They don't even have the right to get in the door of the hospital. Their rights for access to services only stretch to 'reasonable accommodation at nominal cost' under the Equal Status Acts. Many older buildings (including lots of schools, hospitals, public offices) are not accessible to disabled people, and they have no right of access. Public bodies are supposed to ensure that all buildings are accessible by 2015, but just wait for the 'we've no money' excuses to start coming out as we hit that deadline. Disabled students are frequently ghettoised to the nearest VEC/community school, as other schools come up with all kinds of creative excuses as to why they can't accept them.  Disabled children 6-18 years don't even have a right to have their needs assessed, as the needs assessment process under the Disability Act has only been applied to 0-5 years so far (5 years after implementation).

Disabled people have little or no rights in Ireland today.


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## RMCF (4 Aug 2010)

To be honest, I think most people are so fed up to the back teeth with politicians and their ways.

Just take that Healy Ray character that was on The Last Word tonight.

Typically, like 99.9% of them, he tried to defend his expenses simply on the basis that "the system allows it". And of course he did the usual thing of not being able to give a YES or NO answer. They are masters at it. They stretch out the interview and answer things they aren't asked, so that the time will run out and they can escape answering the big one.

I think these Healy Ray guys are held in fairly high esteem for politicians. yet even they stand by the system, as it is in their benefit. 

Again its a case of people taking what they can, even if its not needed.

_And on the subject of politicians, I would love to see the day when politicians are told "If you don't give me an answer to the specific question I asked then I'm cutting you off", and then actually do it. How sweet would that be?_


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## RMCF (5 Aug 2010)

An interesting article

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...e-this-rotting-republic-of-greed-2284658.html


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## lightswitch (5 Aug 2010)

Most progressive laws that have come in to place in Ireland in the last 20 years have stemmed from the EU.  Lets fact it our Politicans are doing very little legislative work!

I would also propose a 10 year gap before a TD's family member can run for public office.  This would reduce the amount of Healy- Ray, Aherne, Flynn so called political dynasties emerging or should I say enduring.  Any family member who is genuinely interested in a political position could earn valuable experience in the real world before entering politics.

Are there many other countries where seats would be in effect passed on to sons/ daughters / brothers etc?  

Not sure I would agree with the above Irish / English statement, they have had their fair share of expenses scandles over the past year too!  We are both nations populated by very docile people though!


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## Betsy Og (5 Aug 2010)

On the civic pride thing, lets not be too down on ourselves. There are loads of people who keep their property well, dont litter, participate in Tidy Towns and community activities (sport or otherwise).

I think many people are acutely aware that their best chance of having a good lifestyle is by lookin after No. 1, as opposed to relying on social welfare or any communist type philiosophy. This mostly manifests itself in people working hard and being careful with money.

However others, a small minority I should think, take it to extremes by trying to milk the system, either by what they take (expenses, SW fraud etc) or what they refuse to give (tax evasion).

And then theres the grey areas, e.g. non means tested SW. So we as a family are entitled to childrens allowance, we'd manage without it, but we pay plenty of tax so its one of they few "free" benefits we get back. We claim it because we are entitled to it, after all we're lookin after No 1 (i.e. not expecting the state to look after us overall). So would it be civic minded/patriotic to not claim it? Maybe, but should the proverbial hit the fan in a financial sense (always a possibility), will any personal kudos we felt for not claiming what we were entitled to then help us - No.


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## daithi (7 Aug 2010)

I remember driving from Portadown to Derry a few years ago, and driving through towns and villages on the way,it was an eye-opener to observe the Union Jack-festooned villages being immaculate, and the Tricoloured villages being dumps-It speaks volumes for the Irish mentality...

daithi


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## Caveat (7 Aug 2010)

Er..what?!

If you are saying what I think you are saying, believe me, I've seen plenty of immaculate, snotty republican villages and loads of shabby, lawless loyalist villages too - as weli as vice versa.


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## notagardener (8 Aug 2010)

I think it's all our fault, modern generation, myself included . As posted, we generally don't really care what our politicians do, once they look after the town/area they represent. Local politics and all that. These days, we just moan and complain but never really do anything. I was so proud of my mum , over 70 and outside the dail with thousands of her fellow pensioners protesting about the proposed changes to the medical card scheme back in 2008...Think we've really let them down to be honest


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## Purple (8 Aug 2010)

notagardener said:


> I was so proud of my mum , over 70 and outside the dail with thousands of her fellow pensioners protesting about the proposed changes to the medical card scheme back in 2008...Think we've really let them down to be honest



Was that the one where the pensioners on €1400 a week wouldn't pay twenty quid VHI?


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## RMCF (9 Aug 2010)

Fair play to her, but I know a few pensioners who are incredibly wealthy and could probably do without the massive pension, free medical card, free electricity, free phone calls etc that they are given by default. And they admit this themselves.


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## Complainer (9 Aug 2010)

RMCF said:


> Fair play to her, but I know a few pensioners who are incredibly wealthy and could probably do without the massive pension, free medical card, free electricity, free phone calls etc that they are given by default. And they admit this themselves.


If they are incredibly wealthy, then they are paying significant amount of tax. You don't need to cut universal services to catch the few 'incredibly wealthy' - just tax them.


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## Purple (9 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> If they are incredibly wealthy, then they are paying significant amount of tax. You don't need to cut universal services to catch the few 'incredibly wealthy' - just tax them.



So employ civil servants to collect the taxes and then employ more to give them back. Sounds like good sound socialist logic to me alright ... jobs for the boys (and girls) eh?


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## Black Sheep (9 Aug 2010)

Not sure what your point is Purple.  Pensioners pay tax at the same rates as everybody else.


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## Purple (9 Aug 2010)

Black Sheep said:


> Not sure what your point is Purple.  Pensioners pay tax at the same rates as everybody else.



My point is that in many areas we have social welfare payments that are universal (non means tested). For higher earners that involves the state taking their money, paying a clerk to process it and then giving back what’s left. Why not just take less money in taxes and don’t give out universal welfare payments.
Children’s allowance is a better example of the same thing since it isn’t taxable. Get rid of it and introduce a refundable tax credit instead.


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## browtal (10 Aug 2010)

I wonder if Judge Judy would come over here and shout at our politicians about what is right and what is wrong.
She puts it fairly bluntly.

Are we heading for a rebellion? Do our politicians really represent us - they say we get what we deserve. Every day there is another revelation about irregularities.

I recently requested to rent a house for 2 weeks from a German couple, while they are on holidays. I was surprised when they said 'it would mess up their tax'. They dont pay an accountant every year and paying to have the extra money added in would be too messy?

Browtal


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## Protocol (11 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> If they are incredibly wealthy, then they are paying significant amount of tax. You don't need to cut universal services to catch the few 'incredibly wealthy' - just tax them.


 
Complainer,

I know of pensioners on 700-1000pw gross who pay 2-5% tax.

Some are under 65, and get medical card, free travel, free VEC courses.

They pay zero income levy and zero health levy.

They are not "vulnerable", as the media suggests many of them are.

They can't believe how generous the State is.

They feel the Govt is too soft.


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## Protocol (11 Aug 2010)

Black Sheep said:


> Not sure what your point is Purple. Pensioners pay tax at the same rates as everybody else.


 
No, you pay less tax if over 65.

This is due to the Age tax credit, and also much higher tax exemption limits.


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## Complainer (11 Aug 2010)

Protocol said:


> Complainer,
> 
> I know of pensioners on 700-1000pw gross who pay 2-5% tax.
> 
> ...





Protocol said:


> No, you pay less tax if over 65.
> 
> This is due to the Age tax credit, and also much higher tax exemption limits.


Just to be clear, I'm suggesting that our current situation is perfect. I wasn't aware of the higher tax exemption limits for older people, and I've no idea what the rationale for these is. I was out for a family dinner on Sunday, and noticed how the restaurant that was full to the brim with young families and kids two years ago is now half-empty, and most of the customers there were over 55. Draw what conclusion you like from that. However, let's keep it in context. 

I  know many entrapreneurs and investors who can't believe how generous the State is, giving them patent royalties tax free (for not very innovative patents). very low corporation tax  and allowing them to shelter income by renting their own properties to their businesses. They feel the Govt is too soft.

So perhaps lots of changes are required to our tax system. But my main point was that tax system is the best vehicle for addressing anomolies. If there are lots of older people with considerable income, then they should be paying considerable tax. The cost of introducing a means-test system for the medical card would be considerable. All the infrastructure is already in place to collect this tax. The cost of adjusting tax rates and allowances would be neglible, and there may even be cost savings if the current systems can be simplified.


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## shnaek (11 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> If there are lots of older people with considerable income, then they should be paying considerable tax.



Why?


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## Protocol (11 Aug 2010)

Complainer, I agree with you.

A single person over 65 has a tax exemption limit of 20k, married couple = 40k.

Note: only one spouse must be >65.

So a married couple can earn 750pw free of tax, if one of them is over 65.

Take a typical retired teacher / guard / higher civil servant / bank official or manager, who retired on 70k (one-earner couple).

Their pension is 700pw, tax free.  They will also both get medical cards, even if one spouse is aged 25 (unlikely, I agree).  They also both get free travel, as a spouse under 65 is classed as a "companion".  Plus, once they get the medical card, they no longer pay the income levy or the health levy (I'm nearly 100% sure of this).

Great country, where else would you get it??!!


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## Complainer (11 Aug 2010)

shnaek said:


> Why?


To pay their fair share of the costs of the public services.


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## Shawady (11 Aug 2010)

Protocol, are you saying that a retired person with a pension of say 50K will pay less tax than someone currently working on 50K?


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## Shawady (11 Aug 2010)

double post


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## shnaek (11 Aug 2010)

Complainer said:


> To pay their fair share of the costs of the public services.



Fair according to who?


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## Complainer (11 Aug 2010)

shnaek said:


> Fair according to who?


Fair according to me.

If you have further questions, maybe you could post them all in a single bunch, so we can move the arguement forward rather than playing tennis.


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## Protocol (11 Aug 2010)

Shawady said:


> Protocol, are you saying that a retired person with a pension of say 50K will pay less tax than someone currently working on 50K?


 
Yes, firstly, as they will get the Age tax credit, assuming one of the couple is >65.

Perhaps 40k is a better example.

Under 65 on 40k wages = approx 5k tax.

Over 65 on 40k pension = NIL tax


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## Purple (11 Aug 2010)

I see the logic in Complainers thinking on this one. I don’t fully agree with it but it does make sense. I don’t think anyone over 70 should get the medical card unless they qualify based on income levels. Maybe there should be no medical cards at all but rather compulsory health insurance for everyone and a refundable tax credit system. That way there’s no two-tier health system and all welfare payments are run through the taxation system.


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## Firefly (11 Aug 2010)

Purple said:


> I see the logic in Complainers thinking on this one. I don’t fully agree with it but it does make sense. I don’t think anyone over 70 should get the medical card unless they qualify based on income levels. Maybe there should be no medical cards at all but rather compulsory health insurance for everyone and a refundable tax credit system. That way there’s no two-tier health system and all welfare payments are run through the taxation system.


 
How about banning private health care altogether? IMO it wouldn't take long for the quality of the health service to improve if the great & the good had to get in line for services with everyone else. Can yo imagine if Bertie and the like had to queue in a trolley..


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## Complainer (11 Aug 2010)

Firefly said:


> How about banning private health care altogether? IMO it wouldn't take long for the quality of the health service to improve if the great & the good had to get in line for services with everyone else. Can yo imagine if Bertie and the like had to queue in a trolley..


I probably wouldn't even go that far myself, but we should certainly cut the state subsidies to private healthcare, i.e. tax relief on insurance, tax relief to developers of clinics. We should also be charging full economic cost for private beds in public hospitals.

Let the private healthcare industry continue, but it has to stand on its own two feet without state subsidy (pretty much like the UK).


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