# Rental relief-landlord not paying tax



## cathald (7 Mar 2006)

Hi all,

Just a quick query? There are three of us renting a house for last year. We filled out the rental relief forms and sent them into the agency. The agency came back to us and said the landlord wasn't paying tax and he offered us €500 cash between the three of us!

Is this price fair or is he screwing us? what is the best thing to do? We all paid over 1650 in rent for the year

Thanks


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## Janet (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Rental Relief*

What agency?  These forms should be sent to the Revenue Commissioners.


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## CCOVICH (7 Mar 2006)

You are still entitled to cliam relief, and you should do so.

It's hard to believe that the landlord/agent was stupid enough to come back with that reponse.

I'm pretty sure that the agent is committing an offence in this instance, never mind that the landlord is guilty of tax evasion.

Janet is correct in that the forms should have been sent to the Revenue.  They would have got the landlord's details if you had not supplied them.  This is what you should do now.

*Please do not name the agency here.*


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## cathald (7 Mar 2006)

The letting agency wouldn't give out the landlords PPS number to us for the rental relief form and asked us to send them into them.


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## ACCK01 (7 Mar 2006)

You can send in the form to revenue without the landlords PPN number. Just give his name and address or the agents name and address. You should still get the rent relief then. What the agent and landlord are doing is tax evasion. If there are three of you there each paying over 1650 for the year for rent then you should each get 330 in relief (990 in total). The landlord is completely ripping you off!


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## delgirl (7 Mar 2006)

CCOVICH said:
			
		

> You are still entitled to cliam relief, and you should do so.


Absolutely agree!  There are a lot of landlords out there who are not paying tax and are reluctant to give their details when tenants request them for rent relief.

In January I downloaded rent relief forms for my tenants and helped them complete them.  They then told their friends about the rent relief and their landlords are hopping mad as they are obviously not paying tax and don't want to give their PPS no's.

I'm open to correction, but I think if you don't have the PPS number, you can give the landlord's name and address instead.


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## casiopea (7 Mar 2006)

delgirl said:
			
		

> I'm open to correction, but I think if you don't have the PPS number, you can give the landlord's name and address instead.



Delgirl is right, your landlords name and address is enough.  You could also let your landlord know you are doing this and then he/she might volunteer the PPS number. Either way, you'll get your rent relief.


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## Ham Slicer (7 Mar 2006)

This whole system is going to change very shortly.  

The recent Finance Bill obliges landlords to register their properties with the residential tenancies board.  Failure to do so will mean they are not entitled to claim interest relief against their rents.  Non registration will also mean that tenants will not be able to claim rent relief.

This may not impact many landlords who don't pay tax, but the new system will not allow landlords to register retrospectively.  

Normally, when someone is caught not declaring their rental income, they will go back and calculate their rental profit using all the usual expenses.  In future, the look back will not allow the landlord to use his main expense (mortgage interest).  Thus, when he is assessed his liability will be much higher than it might otherwise have been without even mentioning interest and penalties.

As Revenue starts to intergrate their systems it will also be harder for landlords to hide as Revenue will know who has two properties/two mortgages etc.  Social welfare tenant lists will also be available to Revenue.

So while the OP's landlord is getting away with it now, it won't be for much longer.


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## Janet (7 Mar 2006)

Ham Slicer said:
			
		

> Non registration will also mean that tenants will not be able to claim rent relief.



Really?  I hadn't realised that.  Seems very unfair to me (as a tenant and likely to remain a tenant for a good while yet) - wasn't the main reason for introducing rent relief to get people to apply for it regardless of whether the landlord was registered for tax or not thus leading to more non-compliant landlords being caught?


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## muesli (8 Mar 2006)

Hi Ham Slicer,

Do you know when these changes are to take place ?

I am moving out of my flat at the end of the month and I don't want to 'rock the boat' until I'm safely out of the place before I claim back my rent relief - like similar posters, I don't have my landlord's PPS number.

Thank you have any info you have,
rgds
M.


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## casiopea (8 Mar 2006)

Ham Slicer said:
			
		

> The recent Finance Bill obliges landlords to register their properties with the residential tenancies board.




Hasnt this already come into effect? Are you talking about PRTB which I think came into effect in 2004/2005.  Recording:

• The address of the dwelling
• The name, address and PPS number of the landlord and any authorised agents of the landlord
• The number of occupants of the dwelling
• The name and Personal Public Service Number (PPSN) of the tenant(s) of the dwelling 
• A description of the dwelling including the number of bed spaces
• The date the tenancy commenced
• The amount of rent payable and payment intervalsthe disclosure of the identity of the landlord or tenant(s) or the rent payable.

From: http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/0/b90ddfd0a73dbfdc80256f0f003bc7eb/$FILE/Registration%20Leaflet%20PDF.pdf

I know all landlords should be registered on this.


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## Ham Slicer (8 Mar 2006)

casiopea said:
			
		

> Hasnt this already come into effect? Are you talking about PRTB which I think came into effect in 2004/2005.



Yes it was introduced in the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, but Finance Bill 2006 now gives landlords a reason to register.

Previously you were paying €70 for nothing.


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## asdfg (8 Mar 2006)

Not all landlords register unfortunately. The penalties are not severe enough. When necessary laws are passed the landlord will not be able to claim expenses (mainly mortgage interest) against rental income until they register with PRTB. This will hit them hard as all rental income (not profit) will be taxed at 42%.


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## tiroileain (8 Mar 2006)

> I am moving out of my flat at the end of the month and I don't want to 'rock the boat' until I'm safely out of the place before I claim back my rent relief - like similar posters, I don't have my landlord's PPS number.


 
It will take a while for the revenue to process your claims anyway. I made claim about a year ago for rent relief going back over 2 1/2 years. It took about 2 months in total, but they were quite helpful. Told me I could go back up to a max of 3 years. I was claiming on 4 properties, and only had 1 (the most recent) PPS number. I'm not sure why you're concerned about rocking the boat, if your landlord evades taxes then it's not really your problem?


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## casiopea (8 Mar 2006)

tiroileain said:
			
		

> I'm not sure why you're concerned about rocking the boat, if your landlord evades taxes then it's not really your problem?



They're probably worried about getting their deposit back.


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## Helen (8 Mar 2006)

You don't always need the PPS number. Once you have the names and addresses, revenue will process your claim.


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## muesli (8 Mar 2006)

Spot on Casiopea, I want my deposit back.

Thanks again to the people posting here, very illuminating !
M.


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## ClubMan (8 Mar 2006)

jaybird said:
			
		

> But will they contact the landlord and shop them for not being registered/ not paying tax.


 If they are evading their tax or other responsibilities then I certainly hope so. Why should I and other tax compliant citizens carry the can for others who engage in tax evasion (i.e. a genuine rip-off in _Ireland _in contrast to the so-called rip-offs that many people moan about)?


> Can I claim from the Revenue without getting them in trouble?


 If they are evading tax then they *should *get into trouble - or at least settle their liabilities. This is not your problem. Of course if you want to facilitate possible tax evasion then that's a matter for yourself but nobody here would recommend it.


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## delgirl (8 Mar 2006)

muesli said:
			
		

> I am moving out of my flat at the end of the month and I don't want to 'rock the boat' until I'm safely out of the place before I claim back my rent relief - like similar posters, I don't have my landlord's PPS number.


You shouldn't have to worry about 'rocking the boat' - if you leave the property in clean and good order, you are entitled to get your deposit back and, as a tenant, are protected by the 2004 residential tenancies act.  

You can contact the PRTB who will mediate should you be unable to get your deposit back.


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## Ham Slicer (8 Mar 2006)

asdfg said:
			
		

> When necessary laws are passed the landlord will not be able to claim expenses (mainly mortgage interest) against rental income until they register with PRTB. This will hit them hard as all rental income (not profit) will be taxed at 42%.



Not true.  Non-registration will only restrict interest, not other expenses.  It will always be profit taxed at the marginal rate (not necessarily at 42%).


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## colc1 (8 Mar 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> If they are evading their tax or other responsibilities then I certainly hope so. Why should I and other tax compliant citizens carry the can for others who engage in tax evasion (i.e. a genuine rip-off in _Ireland _in contrast to the so-called rip-offs that many people moan about)?
> If they are evading tax then they *should *get into trouble - or at least settle their liabilities. This is not your problem. Of course if you want to facilitate possible tax evasion then that's a matter for yourself but nobody here would recommend it.


 
Well said clubman!  I think a lot of the rip-off thing is exaggerated, but tax evasion is certainly costing us tax compliant people a lot.  The country just wouldnt function without taxes (debatable if it does anyway I know ) they are a necessary evil.


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## cian8 (8 Mar 2006)

Does anyone know why agents are loath to provide landlords PPS number? Is it a privacy issue? I wouldn't have thought your PPS number is much use to anyone else.


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## colc1 (8 Mar 2006)

cian8 said:
			
		

> Does anyone know why agents are loath to provide landlords PPS number? Is it a privacy issue? I wouldn't have thought your PPS number is much use to anyone else.


 
Well I sure wouldnt give mine out!


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