# No will, no probate, many years have passed...



## Qwerty22 (4 Sep 2020)

Hi,
My father-in-law comes from a very large family, and both his parents died 20 years ago without either having made a will. Three of his siblings still live in the large family house and are themselves now elderly. No attempt was ever made to sell the house or divide it in any way after his parents died, and the deeds would still probably be in my father-in-law's father's name. No probate that I know of - nothing.

All the other siblings still have keys to come and go as they please, and some stay from time-to-time (sometimes for months on end). It is a situation where nobody ever seems to have wanted to resolve anything legally or financially. 

I would imagine under intestacy rules, that each sibling still owns a share in the house, or the children of any now-dead siblings would in turn have inherited their share?

Some of the family are not well off and would be delighted to have some money from the proceeds of a sale if it ever happened. Others are not that bothered as they have their own houses and savings. And then there are the siblings still living in the old family house who obviously wouldn't want a sale as that's their only home.

As the elderly siblings still living in the old family home will inevitably pass away in the coming years, what is the best way to deal with the house  when they are gone? (Assuming some other family member doesn't just decide to start living there in "their home".) Have any laws been broken by not splitting the house or re-registering the deeds? Are any inheritance or capital acquisition taxes been due? Does the fact that some siblings are still living in the house for many years affect anything? Is a solicitor required to sort out what seems to me like a potentially very messy situation with many interested parties?

Of course bringing up any of this with any of his family is a totally toxic topic of conversation, and I'm a relatively disinterested party in this, but I was just wondering what, if anything, could or should be done.


----------



## mathepac (4 Sep 2020)

A mine-field, but not for any member of the legal profession initially as negotiations between family must take place first. Who wants to take on the issue of sorting out your father-in-law's parents' intestacy first? Who and how many will be the representatives for sorting out the intestacy? AFAIK nothing can happen until this is resolved but IANAL. Someone has to take the reins for the first step, getting agreement first as to who pays how much for "their"  portion of that work - siblings only or deceased siblings' children?  Once spending money on legal fees etc rears its ugly head, you'll (or the misfortune who broaches the topic en famille) get "the isn't it grand the way it is", "wasting good money for nothing" and "sure isn't it ours anyway" responses.


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote (4 Sep 2020)

Who pays bills and in general contributes to the upkeep of the house?


----------



## Saavy99 (4 Sep 2020)

How much is house worth? Is it in need of substantial renovations at this stage. If the value is low I reckon the legal fees would be alot more.


----------



## Feemar5 (4 Sep 2020)

Unless the house is very valuable it is unlikely that any inheritance tax is due - the current threshold is €335K from parents to children and in the year 2000 it was €234K but there may be rates and local property tax due.    There used to be a Non Private Residence tax on second homes and  this was scrapped some time ago but there were severe penalties for non payment.   However, if there was no will it may not apply.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (4 Sep 2020)

How much is the house worth? 
How many children are there to get a share? 

How many grandchildren are there to get a share? 

It's your husband's father and his uncles.  

You probably should not get involved at all.  

If I were in your shoes, I would be very irritated by the untidiness of it but I would keep well away from it. 

Brendan


----------



## Saavy99 (4 Sep 2020)

Feemar5 said:


> There used to be a Non Private Residence tax on second homes and  this was scrapped some time ago but there were severe penalties for non payment.   However, if there was no will it may not apply.


 This tax will be null and void in another couple years.


----------



## Vanessa (6 Sep 2020)

I understand fully Brendans advice not to get involved as it certainly seems to be a complicated estate. However someone has to do it and the sooner the estate is normalised ( is that a word?) the better. I have some experience of this type situation and it can lead to unpleasantness.+
As there are a number of siblings and the parents dies without wills it would seem that the property should be owned by all of them with equal share. In the event of one or more of the siblings having died it gets a little bit more complicated if they have children.
I would check with the Land Registry first of all to establish the current ownership of the property. ( You would be surprised what happens to properties without families knowing!)
The next step would be to get the property registered in the names of the various owners with the Land Registry. However before even doing that  I would draw up a general letter for the attention of all the siblings. I would outline the current situation and expain what needs to be done. The very positive aspect for each owner is that they would have their share registered and it is their choice then to decide what they want to do with it. They could sell it on or they could bequeath it to someone in their will. In any case as long as they are part owner they have equal access to the property. It may be advisable to brief a solicitor first and get this letter. I would also seek an estimate of the costs of the entire transaction from the solicitor and attempt to get equal contribution from each owner towards same.
On the taxation side as there are a number of owners there probably would not be an inheritance tax issue. The NPPR fee was not excessive and any charge for non payment could be resolved.  Who pays the Local Property Tax? This would indicate in whose name it is registered? If it is not being paid sooner or later Revenue will be calling.
Having posted all that this issue will need to be resolved eventually but from your point of view you need to ask "Whats in it for me?"  How big is the estate? Your husbands grandparents were the owners of 100%. They died without wills so their large family including your husbands father, say 10 for example, inherited 10% each.
Your husband still has no share. In the event of your father in law dying his wife if still alive would be entitled to all or a share depending on whether or not a will was made. The percentage share is getting smaller all the time.
If the matter could be resolved with the goodwill and cooperation of all that would be fine but unless your husband actually has some percentage ownership why get involved? If your father in law is still alive he will have a share registed in his name. This does not mean your husband will be an eventual beneficiary


----------



## Peanuts20 (7 Sep 2020)

Dealt with a similar situation a few years ago, 1st cousin of my Dad died, he was the last of the immediate family, all his brothers had died by then, none had married and there was no nephews or nieces. Solicitor approached my Dad at the funeral and I ended up being one of the executors as a result. It was an utter mess, the farm and everything else ended up being sold and divided between 27 cousins. Solicitor was finding bank accounts 2 years after the mans death. It got sorted but was not easy.

Hence if you can regulate it before hand it would help but there are 2 keys issues to consider. Firstly, the wellbeing of those still in the house and secondly, the cost of doing so. At least in my case the estate covered the costs and it was quite transparent but who pays here. ?


----------



## Saavy99 (7 Sep 2020)

I don't think the NPPR is of concern here as the house appears to have its fair share of occupants both past and present.


----------



## Orla Cosgrave (22 Jan 2021)

Saavy99 said:


> This tax will be null and void in another couple years.


There is still local property tax on second homes this hasn't been done away with


----------



## RedOnion (22 Jan 2021)

Orla Cosgrave said:


> There is still local property tax on second homes this hasn't been done away with


The comment was about NPPR, not LPT.


----------



## tallpaul (22 Jan 2021)

Why register and then give erroneous information in the first post!


----------



## Saavy99 (22 Jan 2021)

Orla Cosgrave said:


> There is still local property tax on second homes this hasn't been done away with



I'm talking about NPPR, a historic tax that that had excruciating penalties for non payment.


----------



## Qwerty22 (8 Mar 2021)

Thanks for the replies.


----------



## Jim Stafford (8 Mar 2021)

Qwerty22 said:


> Does the fact that some siblings are still living in the house for many years affect anything?


I would have thought that the remaining siblings living in the house, uninterrupted, for 12 years would entitle them to adverse possession?

Jim Stafford


----------



## Qwerty22 (9 Mar 2021)

Interesting point - from what I've read, they'd need to have shown "intent" to take possession, and that the other owners would need to have been unable to exercise rights associated with ownership. I'd imagine the fact that they all have keys to the house, and can walk in any time and make a cup of tea, watch the television, and stay in any empty bedroom for as long as they like would be an indicator. The PRAI website mentions the case of a farmer occasionally parking his car at the edge of his field and looking in on it was enough to keep him in possession of his land. I don't think anyone's trying to dispossess anyone of anything, there's just a lack of any action to address the issue.
Anyway, as others have suggested, it's not my problem and I'm not getting involved, although in the unlikely event anyone asks my advice I might be able to help them. It just seemed like a very unresolved situation compared to the probate process someone in my family had to go through with deeds, solicitors, registry etc.


----------



## noproblem (9 Mar 2021)

Qwerty22 said:


> Anyway, as others have suggested, it's not my problem and I'm not getting involved, although in the unlikely event anyone asks my advice I might be able to help them


A solicitor would help them, what advice you give is what you've been told here i'd imagine.


----------



## Qwerty22 (9 Mar 2021)

noproblem said:


> A solicitor would help them, what advice you give is what you've been told here i'd imagine.


Yes - "I advise you to call a solicitor."


----------

