# Teachers/Free classes



## Concert (14 Feb 2011)

My blood is at boiling point over the above issue.  I think it's a disgrace that teachers who live close to schools and have free classes can nip home and do whatever during their free time.  I live near a private school which my daughter attends and notice that two teachers who live in our estate come home regularly during free classes.  Just saw one of them a while ago taking sand out of a trailer, before anyone accuses me of being nosey I walk regularly so cant help but notice.  I work in the public service but during quiet times (rarely) I cannot go home to put out the washing etc.  I pay these private teachers wages and I'm sure there is plenty for them to do in the school, go knows their day is short enough.


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## DrMoriarty (14 Feb 2011)

Concert said:


> My blood is at boiling point...


Moved to _Letting Off Steam._



Concert said:


> ...a private school which my daughter attends


Why not complain to the Principal?


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

Concert said:


> My blood is at boiling point over the above issue.  I think it's a disgrace that teachers who live close to schools and have free classes can nip home and do whatever during their free time.  I live near a private school which my daughter attends and notice that two teachers who live in our estate come home regularly during free classes.  Just saw one of them a while ago taking sand out of a trailer, before anyone accuses me of being nosey I walk regularly so cant help but notice.  I work in the public service but during quiet times (rarely) I cannot go home to put out the washing etc.  I pay these private teachers wages and I'm sure there is plenty for them to do in the school, go knows their day is short enough.



Ireland is exceptional in this regard; in most developed countries teachers have to remain on site during the school day. Then again our teachers have shorter hours, longer holidays and get paid more than their counterparts in most of the developed world so I don't see why this should be a surprise to anyone.


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## thedaras (14 Feb 2011)

What does telling us its a "private" school have to do with anything? Would that not happen in a public school?

What does telling us you are a PS have to do with anything? Would the teacher be a PS also?
When you say you have free time do you mean many hours at a time?

I thought you guys were all broke? How come you can aford "private" schools ,I thought that was only for rich capitalists.
By the way if you are out walking and see them "regularly ",they probably are saying the same about you!


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## truthseeker (14 Feb 2011)

How do you know they come home during free classes? Maybe they work part time?

How are you seeing them at all in the daytime if you work yourself?


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

The OP's working hours have not been disclosed. What does it matter?


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## truthseeker (14 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> The OP's working hours have not been disclosed. What does it matter?


 
The teachers working hours have not been disclosed either.

Just think its a big assumption to make based on seeing someone around the place - they could be thinking the same of the OP.


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## thedaras (14 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> The OP's working hours have not been disclosed. What does it matter?


OP  said she sees them on a regular basis when out walking.
How else could she see them taking time at home unless she was at home her/himself, its a logical conclusion of what the OP said.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> OP  said she sees them on a regular basis when out walking.
> How else could she see them taking time at home unless she was at home her/himself, its a logical conclusion of what the OP said.



If the OP is contracted to work part-time and paid accordingly then what's the problem?
The OP's gripe is that people who are contracted to work semi-full time are at home during their working hours.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

truthseeker said:


> The teachers working hours have not been disclosed either.



Is anyone suggesting that secondary teachers do not leave their school when they have a non-classroom period during their working day?


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## truthseeker (14 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> The OP's gripe is that people who are contracted to work semi-full time are at home during their working hours.


 
How does the OP know the people are contracted to work semi-full time? They could be part timers too.


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## truthseeker (14 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> Is anyone suggesting that secondary teachers do not leave their school when they have a non-classroom period during their working day?


 
They could be part time teachers. Not all teaching posts are full time.


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## DrMoriarty (14 Feb 2011)

Hang on, let's keep this on-topic here, and not turn it into a teacher-bashing thread. Nobody minds teachers leaving school during school hours to sit on buses across the country accompanying students to sporting events/field trips, and returning home late at night.

The OP doesn't have to defend their walking habits, any more than the choice to send their child to a private school. My kids do not attend a fee-paying school, but if I saw what I knew to be _full-time_ teachers from the school regularly popping home during school hours, and visibly not to correct homework, prepare classes etc., then I would complain to the Principal. 

If I were concerned about my kids suffering because of this, I would do so anonymously via the parents committee.


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## rustbucket (14 Feb 2011)

Concert said:


> My blood is at boiling point over the above issue. I think it's a disgrace that teachers who live close to schools and have free classes can nip home and do whatever during their free time. I live near a private school which my daughter attends and notice that two teachers who live in our estate come home regularly during free classes. Just saw one of them a while ago taking sand out of a trailer, before anyone accuses me of being nosey I walk regularly so cant help but notice. I work in the public service but during quiet times (rarely) I cannot go home to put out the washing etc. I pay these private teachers wages and I'm sure there is plenty for them to do in the school, go knows their day is short enough.


 
There is nothing wrong with a teacher leaving school property and going home during their free classes.

A full time teacher is paid pro rata for 22 contact hours with students every week. This means they are paid for 22 hours of teaching a week and that is only if they are full time. They are not paid for anything else. Part Time teachers are again only paid for contact teaching hours.

When a teacher has a 'free' class that does not form part of their timetable why shouldnt they be allowed to go wherever they want? They are not being paid for it, it does not form part of their working hours. That aside most teachers who do have an occasional free class do class prep or corrections (which they are not paid for)

In a normal job, if you take an unpaid day or half day you can do what you like.

They are not paid or timetabled for that particular class so whats the problem.

The fact that you cannot go home during a quiet time is neither here nor there. You are paid to be there from Time A to Time B. Whether you are busy or not is immaterial. Are you saying you would be comfortable plodding off home when its quiet while you are being paid for it by the taxpayer?


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## thedaras (14 Feb 2011)

Concert said:


> My blood is at boiling point over the above issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

Rustbucket is of course correct; secondary teachers are required to work a maximum of 22 hours a week 167 days a year. That’s 33.4 weeks at 22 hours a week or a total of 735 hours a year. That’s 18.8 weeks a year based on a 39 hour week.
In other words for most people who work a normal week the working year would end on the 13th of may this year. The reality is, of course, quite different as teachers have correction and class preparation etc which could double their actual hours worked. The problem is that the teaching unions have done what unions do best and set the bar at the lowest level possible so that good teachers are judged by the standards of their most incompetent and lazy colleagues. If they were serious about being taken seriously as a profession then they’d insist themselves that their members spend their working day at work. 
Incidentally since the top of the teaching scale is over €75K it means that a teacher at that rate is getting over €100 per contracted hour. Not bad!


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## Staples (14 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> OP is a public servant, and those who send kids to private schools have been lambasted here,and public servants apparently dont earn enough to live never mind private schools for kids,....just saying.


 
What the OP does with his/her legitimately earned income is irrelevant and frankly none of your business.

You seem to think that those on the public payroll should be required to forage at the lower end of the food chain.


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

staples said:


> what the op does with his/her legitimately earned income is irrelevant and frankly none of your business.
> 
> You seem to think that those on the public payroll should be required to forage at the lower end of the food chain.



+1


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## Shawady (14 Feb 2011)

Private schools fees are chicken feed anyway compared to what a lot of parents have to pay in creche fees.


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## Yorrick (14 Feb 2011)

Would you prefer if they hit down town for a few pints and a kebab ?


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## Shawady (14 Feb 2011)

Yorrick said:


> Would you prefer if they hit down town for a few pints and a kebab ?


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## TarfHead (14 Feb 2011)

Concert said:


> .. I think it's a disgrace that teachers who live close to schools and have free classes can nip home and do whatever during their free time. .. I pay these private teachers wages and I'm sure there is plenty for them to do in the school, go knows their day is short enough.


 
Not strictly true. Private schools depend on State subsidies, so we all pay part of their wages. As we do yours. And, possibly, you do mine.

Teachers are an easy target for criticism based on what many perceive to be their working day and holiday time. I wouldn't do it for twice the money.


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## Mpsox (14 Feb 2011)

Personally speaking, I work from home once or twice a month, and I've been known to put the bins out whilst doing that, in one respect, it's no different from me taking 5 minutes a day at work and looking at AAM. To me, the issue is not that a teacher took some free time to move sand, but rather then length of the school year and the amount of days our kids do not actually spend at school, that it was needs to be changed.


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## Sunny (14 Feb 2011)

I have no idea what this thread is about.


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## DB74 (14 Feb 2011)

Sunny said:


> I have no idea what this thread is about.


 
It's about one lazy public sector employee bashing an even lazier one!


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## Purple (14 Feb 2011)

TarfHead said:


> Teachers are an easy target for criticism based on what many perceive to be their working day and holiday time. I wouldn't do it for twice the money.



Either would I but I wouldn’t clear drains for twice the money DynoRod pay. That doesn’t mean people who clear drains are underpaid/overpaid, underworked/overworked.
What can be said is that there are far more people looking to be teachers than there are teaching posts. That tells us that the pay offered is at least sufficient to attract qualified applicants.


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## rustbucket (14 Feb 2011)

Think this thread should now be closed.


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## thedaras (14 Feb 2011)

Staples said:


> What the OP does with his/her legitimately earned income is irrelevant and frankly none of your business.
> 
> You seem to think that those on the public payroll should be required to forage at the lower end of the food chain.


Evidence???

Where did you get that red herring from?
In fact if you would read what I posted you might learn that in fact what I said was;

One, what does the fact that it is a private school have to do with the post!
Two, what does being a public servant have to do with the post!

So lets be very clear here, I do not think that the fact that the OP is a public servant or that they send their child to private schools has anything whatsoever to do with the post!

And shock horror, some humour 


> I thought you guys were all broke? How come you can aford "private" schools ,I thought that was only for rich capitalists.


Its not my fault you dont have a sense of humour!

If you care to do a search you will see that those of us who send our children to private schools have been lambasted ..
One post comes to mind re those who send their kids to private schools;
Purple;


> There's a massive amount of inverted snobbery and small minded generalisation going on in this thread. Jealousy, insecurity and resentment are not attractive character traits.


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## Ruam (14 Feb 2011)

A little bit of hysteria in this thread.  The teacher in question if he/she is working full time would be contracted to teach 22 hours per week plus whatever preparation/correction that have to be done.  

Outside of these hours, the teacher can do what they want, go for a coffee, head home for a cup of tea.  It is nobody's business but the teacher in question.


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## Lex Foutish (14 Feb 2011)

Concert said:


> My blood is at boiling point over the above issue.  I think it's a disgrace that teachers who live close to schools and have free classes can nip home and do whatever during their free time.  I live near a private school which my daughter attends and notice that two teachers who live in our estate come home regularly during free classes. * Just saw one of them a while ago taking sand out of a trailer,* before anyone accuses me of being nosey I walk regularly so cant help but notice.  I work in the public service but during quiet times (rarely) I cannot go home to put out the washing etc.  I pay these private teachers wages and I'm sure there is plenty for them to do in the school, go knows their day is short enough.



Maybe the teacher in question teaches construction studies and needed half a trailer of sand for a practical lesson.

Or maybe he wanted the empty trailer to take some of his pupils to an after school match.......


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## Marion (14 Feb 2011)

... or maybe the trailer was going to be used for demonstration purposes for an Open Night or an Open Day - sometimes held on Saturday for prospective  pupils?

Marion


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## thedaras (14 Feb 2011)

Concert said:


> My blood is at boiling point over the above issue.  I think it's a disgrace that teachers who live close to schools and have free classes can nip home and do whatever during their free time.  I live near a private school which my daughter attends and notice that two teachers who live in our estate come home regularly during free classes.  Just saw one of them a while ago taking sand out of a trailer, before anyone accuses me of being nosey I walk regularly so cant help but notice.  I work in the public service but during quiet times (rarely) I cannot go home to put out the washing etc.  I pay these private teachers wages and I'm sure there is plenty for them to do in the school, go knows their day is short enough.



Here are the issues I have with this post;
Where are the laws/rules that says Teachers should stay in the school when they have a free period?
Surely  the OP should contact the school to ask if this is "allowed".

It appears OP has no idea what hours the teachers work,they could work part-time,they could be subs for example and only in for a certain amount of hours.

If I had a job where I was required to be there from say 10 till 11 and not there again till two,why would I stay at the job,why wouldn't I get home if I could.?

What in the name of God has taking sand out of a trailer anything to do with OP? Who cares what they do,when and if they are not in work.

Op says she/he works in the PS and  cant go home during quiet times,two things come to mind, where in the PS are there people who have quiet times?
When we are consistently told they are run off their feet? And it sounds like begrudgery , that just because the OP cant do it why should the teachers?

Op says there is plenty for them to do in the school,which may well be the case ,there are teachers who work a certain amount of hours etc,so it comes across like the OP wants the teachers to stay in the school to attend to other things happening in the school,possibly without payment,which will not happen.They may not be insured to be on the premises.

Op says their days are short enough already,well yes we all know this but the post was about them coming home during free time.
My sister was a teacher and she often dropped into my mothers house when she had a couple of free classes..I would have thought this was the norm?


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## johnd (15 Feb 2011)

DrMoriarty said:


> If I were concerned about my kids suffering because of this, I would do so anonymously via the parents committee.



It's a good few years since I had children in school but what I found of the parents committee is that they are useless! Most parents wouldn't even know who was on that committee since elections seem to be every three or four years. Schools ought to give this imformation to parents whose children are starting school but for some reason seen reluctant to do so. 

Some committees see their only role in fund raising and have no real interest in speaking out for parents, some are very close friends to the Principle and staff and are more interested in looking out for their own child's interests.


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## liaconn (15 Feb 2011)

I don't really see the problem. Homework has to be corrected and classes have to be prepared. If the teacher lives close to the school and chooses to pop home during a free class to let the electrician in, hang out a wash or whatever and correct homework and prepare classes at another time, so what? Unless you have proof that these teachers are slacking and coming to class unprepared and hanging onto homework for days, you really have no case. Also, how do you know some of them don't go home to do a bit of work in peace and quiet instead of in a noisy staff room.

Also, I don't understand your point about there being 'plenty of other things' to do in the school. Teachers are paid to teach, not to clean the toilets, paint the assembly hall, or whatever else you had in mind.


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## villa 1 (15 Feb 2011)

liaconn said:


> I don't really see the problem. Homework has to be corrected and classes have to be prepared. If the teacher lives close to the school and chooses to pop home during a free class to let the electrician in, hang out a wash or whatever and correct homework and prepare classes at another time, so what? Unless you have proof that these teachers are slacking and coming to class unprepared and hanging onto homework for days, you really have no case. Also, how do you know some of them don't go home to do a bit of work in peace and quiet instead of in a noisy staff room.
> 
> Also, I don't understand your point about there being 'plenty of other things' to do in the school. Teachers are paid to teach, not to clean the toilets, paint the assembly hall, or whatever else you had in mind.


 
+1 and i'd love to speak to a teacher at the top of the salary scale who takes home 75k. Err, what about all the cuts in the last two years?


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## rustbucket (19 Feb 2011)

villa 1 said:


> +1 and i'd love to speak to a teacher at the top of the salary scale who takes home 75k. Err, what about all the cuts in the last two years?


 
I also very much doubt that a teacher at the top of the salary scale earns €75K.

In fact according to the ASTI website, the top scale (level 25) is €59,359. An that was from the 1st Jan 2010. This will have been reduced with the cuts.

There are qualifications allowances and others that might bring this up a bit but would imagine you would find it difficult to find any second level teacher earning anywhere near this.


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## Purple (19 Feb 2011)

rustbucket said:


> I also very much doubt that a teacher at the top of the salary scale earns €75K.
> 
> In fact according to the ASTI website, the top scale (level 25) is €59,359. An that was from the 1st Jan 2010. This will have been reduced with the cuts.
> 
> There are qualifications allowances and others that might bring this up a bit but would imagine you would find it difficult to find any second level teacher earning anywhere near this.



€59,359 plus €5'469 for having a Masters plus up to €8'520 special functions allowance or up to €22'645 for having a post of responsibility (55% of secondary teachers have special function posts or posts of responsibility).
Details [broken link removed]


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## rustbucket (19 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> €59,359 plus €5'469 for having a Masters plus up to €8'520 special functions allowance or up to €22'645 for having a post of responsibility (55% of secondary teachers have special function posts or posts of responsibility).
> Details [broken link removed]


 
Anyone know how long it takes to get to level 25 on the salary scale?


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## Purple (19 Feb 2011)

rustbucket said:


> Anyone know how long it takes to get to level 25 on the salary scale?



AFAIK it takes 25 years.


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## rustbucket (19 Feb 2011)

So, reading correctly. Anyone who is earning €75K would have been working 25 years or more as a teacher. Not entirely unreasonable to expect that kind of money if you were working in the same company/industry with 25 years experience?

Still a hell of a lot less than a lot of people in the public sector (HSE, OPW etc), and significantly less than any of our TD's/Ministers. In fact, its significantly less than most of their expenses and or pension/golden handshake payments.


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## villa 1 (19 Feb 2011)

folks its 75K gross, factor in 2 yrs of cuts, income levy, pension levy, and the social charge, 75K my


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## thedaras (20 Feb 2011)

How much per hour do they get paid?
This would be a better way of looking at things.


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## Lex Foutish (20 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> How much per hour do they get paid?
> *This would be a better way of looking at things.*


 
Would it?

Are you including the hours the poor man in the original post spent using the trailer to ferry the kids to the match, the time he spent at the match and the time he spent dropping the kids home afterwards? 

Or would you calculate just for the hours he works in school, and quote that as his hourly rate, thus freeing him from the expectation of having to spend time planning, doing corrections, using the trailer taking the children to matches, meeting parents after school, coaching after school, spending nights in the church at first confessions and Saturdays at First Communions and Confirmations, going on school tours and arriving home at 7 or 8 o' clock, etc?


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## Purple (20 Feb 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> Would it?
> 
> Are you including the hours the poor man in the original post spent using the trailer to ferry the kids to the match, the time he spent at the match and the time he spent dropping the kids home afterwards?
> 
> Or would you calculate just for the hours he works in school, and quote that as his hourly rate, thus freeing him from the expectation of having to spend time planning, doing corrections, using the trailer taking the children to matches, meeting parents after school, coaching after school, spending nights in the church at first confessions and Saturdays at First Communions and Confirmations, going on school tours and arriving home at 7 or 8 o' clock, etc?



That's always the dilemma; there are teachers who spend many hours a week correcting, preparing for classes, doing extracurricular activities etc. It is those teachers that are held up as justification for pay rates that are high by European and OECD standards. Then there are other teachers that do the bare minimum, just enough to get through their week. They are the teachers who are used to attach the whole sector by those who think that 22 hours a week 33 weeks a year is too little to justify the salary.
The truth, as usual is somewhere in between. My gripe is that teachers so strongly oppose any attempts to root out the wasters from within their midst and increase standards generally. I don’t understand why any teacher would want to be judged by the very lowest standard.  The answer is always some nonsensical guff along the lines of “but how do you measure what a teacher does?” as if there isn’t a whole industry that does just that very thing.


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## thedaras (20 Feb 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> Would it?
> 
> Are you including the hours the poor man in the original post spent using the trailer to ferry the kids to the match, the time he spent at the match and the time he spent dropping the kids home afterwards?
> 
> ...


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## Purple (20 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Lex Foutish said:
> 
> 
> > Would it?
> ...


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## Lex Foutish (20 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> Purple said:
> 
> 
> > 22 hours a week x 33 weeks a year = 726.
> ...


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## Purple (20 Feb 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> I met the principal of one of the schools in our parish earlier. They open at 8:50 and finish at 2:30. All primary schools have the same length of school day and the school year is 183 days. That's 5.66 hours x 183 which equals 1035 hours, a bit more than the 726 you used in your calculation.
> 
> According to the INTO website, the starting salary, plus primary degree allowance, is €32,746. This divided by 1035 equals about *€31.60* *per hour*. It's a crude way of calculating an hourly rate as every teacher has to plan, correct, etc., including those who don't involve themselves in the voluntary activities that Thedaras referred to.
> 
> ...



I agree re primary school teachers. They have to work a full day (if a very short one) and "only" get 15 weeks holidays and, in most cases, they made a conscious decision to train as teachers in college (rather than, like many secondary teachers, doing an arts degree and then a H-Dip because they didn't know what else to do).

The figures I quoted for secondary teachers must also be reduced by 10% for new applicants from the start of this year.

I also agree that the overall yearly pay isn’t great but when the short hours, long holidays and good pension are factored into the overall package then it’s not at all bad.


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## liaconn (21 Feb 2011)

I do think teachers' hours and holidays are very very attractive. _But _they have a responsible job and a lot  of them spend time outside of the schoolday correcting homework, tidying up the classroom after the kids are gone, setting exams, meeting parents, and so on.

It's not a tough number by any means, but neither is it a cushy job. I think they earn a fair salary for the work they do and there's an awful lot of begrudgers out there.

I'm not a teacher and not related to any teachers, just my objective view.


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## csirl (21 Feb 2011)

Some posters have mentioned that a teachers starting salary is 32k and that most teachers with 25 years experience get c.75k.

There is too big a difference between the 2 figures. I do not believe that where 2 people are doing the same job, one should be paid twice the others salary. I can understand the more experienced person maybe getting 20-30% more, but thats all. This type of salary scale needs reform - top getting paid too much, bottom getting paid too little.


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## Deiseblue (21 Feb 2011)

csirl said:


> Some posters have mentioned that a teachers starting salary is 32k and that most teachers with 25 years experience get c.75k.
> 
> There is too big a difference between the 2 figures. I do not believe that where 2 people are doing the same job, one should be paid twice the others salary. I can understand the more experienced person maybe getting 20-30% more, but thats all. This type of salary scale needs reform - top getting paid too much, bottom getting paid too little.



The basic salary scale runs from approx. € 31,000 to approx.€ 59,400.

Any further payments are based on enhanced further responsibility and achieving further academic qualifications.


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## Purple (21 Feb 2011)

It should also be noted that allowances for qualifications are non-cumulative (unlike Dail pensions). The revised pension arrangements, i.e. based on average earnings, make their pensions considerably less attractive. 
I have a number of teachers in my family. I have the height of respect for all of them. The general consensus I get is that the school day is long enough but the school year is too short for all of the extras that have been added to the curriculum over the last few years. They all agree that parent-teacher meetings should take place in the evening.


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## thedaras (21 Feb 2011)

As I have posted before, there are members of my family who are teachers, they are all off this week,in fact they are not back until the 28th..


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## liaconn (21 Feb 2011)

Yes, thedaras they do have nice hours and holidays, But that's to facilitate the children not the teachers. Are you saying that we should only pay teachers a part time salary and expect them to live and support their families on that, while also wanting the best available for our children???


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## thedaras (21 Feb 2011)

How does this facilitate the children?
Where did I say I expect them to be paid a part time salary?
My only point is that the parents of those children who are off until the 28th are in work..


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## Purple (21 Feb 2011)

liaconn said:


> Yes, thedaras they do have nice hours and holidays, But that's to facilitate the children not the teachers.


I would question that, given that most children are no longer needed for planting or the harvest.


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## liaconn (21 Feb 2011)

What I'm saying is that school hours and holidays aren't set from instructions by the teacher. They are set by the Dept of Education with the education of the children in mind. They are a nice perk for the teachers, yes, but it's not 'their fault'. If the Dept decided to reduce school holidays (which I think they certainly should in the case of Secondary schools. 3 months every Summer is ridiculous) of course teachers would be raging, but they wouldn't have any right to be.


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## liaconn (21 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> How does this facilitate the children?
> Where did I say I expect them to be paid a part time salary?
> My only point is that the parents of those children who are off until the 28th are in work..


  Yes, because they're not teachers. You seem to be saying that schools should be open for the same amount of time as normal businesses, but they're a completely different entity. The fact that the parents of the children are still at work is not really relelvant.


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## thedaras (21 Feb 2011)

liaconn said:


> What I'm saying is that school hours and holidays aren't set from instructions by the teacher. They are set by the Dept of Education with the education of the children in mind. They are a nice perk for the teachers, yes, but it's not 'their fault'. If the Dept decided to reduce school holidays (which I think they certainly should in the case of Secondary schools. 3 months every Summer is ridiculous) of course teachers would be raging, but they wouldn't have any right to be.


I agree ,it is not their fault..


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## Lex Foutish (21 Feb 2011)

liaconn said:


> I do think teachers' hours and holidays are very very attractive. _But _they have a responsible job and a lot of them spend time outside of the schoolday correcting homework, tidying up the classroom after the kids are gone, setting exams, meeting parents, and so on.
> 
> It's not a tough number by any means, but neither is it a cushy job. I think they earn a fair salary for the work they do and *there's an awful lot of begrudgers out there.*
> 
> I'm not a teacher and not related to any teachers, just my objective view.


 


thedaras said:


> As I have posted before, there are members of my family who are teachers, they are all off this week,in fact they are not back until the 28th..


 

Y'know, I think you might be onto something there, Liaconn....


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## thedaras (21 Feb 2011)

Oh dear, any argument can be concluded by saying its just a case of begrudgery..but luckily those who want a sensible argument would see this as a very childish position to take.


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## Deiseblue (21 Feb 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> Y'know, I think you might be onto something there, Liaconn....



Only too true Lex & Liaconn - the amount of begrudery particularly surrounding the issue of teacher's holidays never fails to surprise me particularly as the school year is set by the Dept. Of Education.


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## Lex Foutish (21 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Oh dear, any argument can be concluded by saying its just a case of begrudgery..but luckily those who want a sensible argument would see this as a very childish position to take.


 
I think people can make their own minds up on that, from reading some of your posts.

A large number of them are very lacking in balance, IMHO.


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## liaconn (21 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Oh dear, any argument can be concluded by saying its just a case of begrudgery..but luckily those who want a sensible argument would see this as a very childish position to take.


 

Nothing childish about it. There _are_ a lot of people who just seem to resent the fact that teachers have long holidays and shorter hours than them, regardless of the reason.


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## villa 1 (21 Feb 2011)

liaconn said:


> Nothing childish about it. There _are_ a lot of people who just seem to resent the fact that teachers have long holidays and shorter hours than them, regardless of the reason.


 +1 to that.

Where was all the begrudgery when the tiger was in full roar and those in the private sector were earning a mint. Short memories i'm afraid
Teachers have taken enough of a cut, at least 20%, and more to come if the right wingers get their chance!!


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## Purple (21 Feb 2011)

villa 1 said:


> Where was all the begrudgery when the tiger was in full roar and those in the private sector were earning a mint. Short memories i'm afraid
> Teachers have taken enough of a cut, at least 20%, and more to come if the right wingers get their chance!!



I’ve been giving out about them for years 

The issue isn’t whether teachers are overpaid, the issue is whether we as a state can afford the total wage bill and if the total fund available for wages would be better spent paying more teachers less in order to reduce class sizes. The other question is whether a smaller proportion of the overall education budget should be spent on pay and more should be spent on infrastructure. I know it’s really obvious but some people still don’t see that spending more on pay means there is less for infrastructure (capital spending). 

I do have a problem with people who fail to see that link; those who agitate for increases in pay and then complain about school conditions, classroom sizes and bad school environments.


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## liaconn (21 Feb 2011)

That's a fair enough argument Purple. What irritates me is people coming on here saying 'oh the teacher down the road is on _*another*_ holiday, bloody teachers, rant, rant' with no sound basis to their argument, just that teachers shouldn't have so many holidays or finish up at 3 o clock or some such, when that is actually part and parcel of the job.


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## Protocol (21 Feb 2011)

The teachers scale is very long.

Yes, it is common for teachers in their 60s to be on 70k.

Many would retire on 70k-75k, and get 35-37k pensions.

Am I off-topic again?


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## Purple (21 Feb 2011)

liaconn said:


> That's a fair enough argument Purple. What irritates me is people coming on here saying 'oh the teacher down the road is on _*another*_ holiday, bloody teachers, rant, rant' with no sound basis to their argument, just that teachers shouldn't have so many holidays or finish up at 3 o clock or some such, when that is actually part and parcel of the job.



I agree. If it was that good we'd all be teachers.


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## thedaras (21 Feb 2011)

liaconn said:


> That's a fair enough argument Purple. What irritates me is people coming on here saying 'oh the teacher down the road is on _*another*_ holiday, bloody teachers, rant, rant' with no sound basis to their argument, just that teachers shouldn't have so many holidays or finish up at 3 o clock or some such, when that is actually part and parcel of the job.



Oh well if it irritates you ,we had better not right any perceived wrong..

In my opinion ,just because its part of the job ,that does not make it right..

If it irritated you that people complained about TDs salarys and hours etc,do you think that we should not voice this as well,/is reason enough for it to be justified?

If the teachers were in the private sector,I would have the exact same issue with them.

Though as usual, some posters try to turn it into a PS v private,in the hope that it will be viewed as bashing and closed..and in fairness ,usually succeed.

However anytime anyone of you who consider tackling teachers hours/pay/conditions to be unfair,bear in mind that these things are changing..WHY?


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## liaconn (22 Feb 2011)

No one's turning it into a Private v Public sector debate Thedaras. You seem to be irate at teachers' hours for no particular reason except that they are better than your's. Schools are open between nine am and mid afternoon and close for the Summer and for Mid Term breaks. This was not a deal negotiated by teachers, it is the agreed schedule for school opening hours. If you would like your children to be in school from 9 - 5.30 and to get 4 weeks holiday a year then fine, come on here and say that. Otherwise you are not being logical.

Also, people who say teachers pay should be reduced because of their shorter hours would no doubt be the first people coming on here complaining that their kids' teachers are coming into work exhausted because they're working in pubs and supermarkets at night time to pay their mortgages and bills.


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## Purple (22 Feb 2011)

liaconn said:


> No one's turning it into a Private v Public sector debate Thedaras. You seem to be irate at teachers' hours for no particular reason except that they are better than your's. Schools are open between nine am and mid afternoon and close for the Summer and for Mid Term breaks. This was not a deal negotiated by teachers, it is the agreed schedule for school opening hours. If you would like your children to be in school from 9 - 5.30 and to get 4 weeks holiday a year then fine, come on here and say that. Otherwise you are not being logical.
> 
> Also, people who say teachers pay should be reduced because of their shorter hours would no doubt be the first people coming on here complaining that their kids' teachers are coming into work exhausted because they're working in pubs and supermarkets at night time to pay their mortgages and bills.



My sister in law is a teacher. She said that 20 years ago she worked a longer year but isn't sure how much longer. Does anyone have any info on this?


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## liaconn (22 Feb 2011)

When I was in primary school  we didn't get mid term breaks, but otherwise the school year was the same. We got off at 2.45 and had a half hour for lunch.


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## thedaras (22 Feb 2011)

liaconn said:


> > No one's turning it into a Private v Public sector debate Thedaras. You seem to be irate at teachers' hours for no particular reason except that they are better than your's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## liaconn (22 Feb 2011)

Well that's fine. You have a problem with the school year as set by the Dept of Education. But that's not the teachers' decision so giving out about 'their' holidays, 'short days' etc as if they've pulled a fast one, instead of saying you think children should spend more time in school, is skewing your argument and making it sound a bit childish and begruding.

For what it's worth, I agree that Summer holidays at secondary level should be shortened to 6-8 weeks because I don't think it's particularly productive for teenagers to be hanging around for 3 months at a time. But if the schools currently close for June July and August (don't know where you got May from) you can't blame the teachers for being happy with that. Wouldn't you be in their position? Where there would be a valid argument would be where they took to the streets protesting if a longer school year was introduced by Dept of Education.


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## Deiseblue (22 Feb 2011)

At least now most people here are singing from the same hymn sheet.

People may indeed have difficulties with the standardised school year and hours but as Thedaras has pointed out teachers are blameless in this regard as the terms and conditions of teachers are set out by the Department of Education.

The standardised school was introduced in 2004 under "sustaining progress " in consultation between the Dept. , School representatives , teachers unions and parent organisations  with periodic reviews , the next of which is to take place at Easter.

It appears however that their is no desire amongst the above parties to extend either the school year or hours ( the Croke Park Agreement does include an extra hour weekly " on site " , however it appears that this additional hour will be spent outside the classroom as there is no demand for further class facing time )


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## thedaras (22 Feb 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> At least now most people here are singing from the same hymn sheet.
> 
> People may indeed have difficulties with the standardised school year and hours but as Thedaras has pointed out teachers are blameless in this regard as the terms and conditions of teachers are set out by the Department of Education.
> 
> ...



Blameless and not their fault are two different things.

 The teachers and the unions, themselves are the very ones who complain the loudest when it comes to changing ANY of the terms set down by the department.
So in my opinion they are not blameless!


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## Purple (22 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> blameless and not their fault are two different things.
> 
> The teachers and the unions, themselves are the very ones who complain the loudest when it comes to changing any of the terms set down by the department.
> So in my opinion they are not blameless!


+1


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## liaconn (22 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Blameless and not their fault are two different things.
> 
> The teachers and the unions, themselves are the very ones who complain the loudest when it comes to changing ANY of the terms set down by the department.
> So in my opinion they are not blameless!


 

Has the Department proposed cutting short school holidays or lengthening the school day? I think personally that the school day is long enough for kids, considering most of them also have to do homework and study in the evenings. I also think primary school holidays are appropriate for young children and they shouldn't be cooped up in school for 48 weeks of the year. The only change I think would be appropriate would be to shorten secondary school summer holidays which are ridiculously long (although that may be because the schools are needed for junior and leaving cert exams).

I don't think teachers should be obliged to provide after school care for working parents, or anything like that. That is not their job and not what they trained to do. 

As far as I know, primary teachers do have to work extra hours under the croke park agreement. I'm not sure what they will be doing though that won't involve keeping kids in school longer as well.


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## MrMan (22 Feb 2011)

Slightly OT, but I think that the 3 month holidays are a good thing, if there was a change then maybe an extra project could be incorporated into the summer holiday period, like a light social study just to keep brains ticking over, but either way I think it is better for kids to be free from uniforms and a regular 9-4 mon-fri environment as much as possible.


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## Deiseblue (22 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Blameless and not their fault are two different things.
> 
> The teachers and the unions, themselves are the very ones who complain the loudest when it comes to changing ANY of the terms set down by the department.
> So in my opinion they are not blameless!



The standardised school year and school hours have been agreed by the employer , the employees trade unions , school representatives and parents organisations since 2004 and as such all have an input - if you personally have a problem with what was was agreed then I suggest that you target all the responsible parties.

Furthermore it appears that the standardised year and hours are unlikely to be changed in the forthcoming review at Easter as none of the negotiating parties are seeking an extension either of the standardised years or hours nor does it seem to be a case of concern for the majority of the public.

To the best of my knowledge the Unions have never challenged ANY aspect of the original 2004 agreement - if however you have facts to prove the contrary please don't hesitate to post same.

I would contend therefore that the teachers and their unions are indeed blameless as the standardised year and hours was mutually agreed by all interested parties and indeed adhered to by such parties.


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## DonDub (22 Feb 2011)

Some of the above comments remind me of the goings on in the Soviet Union, where everything in society was dictated by the state e.g. where people worked, what they did, how they did it. 
Apparently, we are not living in a totalitarian state (yet). Although, teachers (like many others in the PS) will blame 'the department' when it suits e.g. hours etc are laid down by the department . Of course, they will attack the department at the merest hint of any real change.

Teachers should work significantly longer hours, for in-service training, and increased contact time with pupils e.g. through shorter holidays. Perish the thought that teachers might become tired through such exertions. I mean, most of us in the real world (lucky enough to have a job) know what tiredness is all about - it's a fact of life.

But wait, I'm forgetting - part of our society is indeed Soviet in nature - just like the communist party apparatchiks, who ran the USSR to serve their own narrow interests. This approach worked wonderfully for decades, until......they 'ran' the country into the ground.......sound familiar?


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## Deiseblue (22 Feb 2011)

I prefer to see it as democracy and the workings of industrial relations at their best.

The Dept. Of Education felt that the implementation of a standardised working week was an imperative , to achieve this end the Dept. as employer sat down with their employees representative body , the schools representatives and the parents organisations and arrived at a mutually agreed , mutually suitable solution.

A solution , incidentally , arrived at in 2004 and which has stood the test of time since and probably will do for the foreseeable future .


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## DonDub (22 Feb 2011)

I prefer to see it for what it is...a well organised and powerful vested interest group (the teachers unions) aligning with another powerful vested interest group (FF) to stitch up Joe & Josephine public. Warren Buffett said 'it is only when the tide goes out, that you can see who is swimming naked'. FF are starkers....so to are their friends in ICTU........and both are trying to cover up their modesty with
tired and washed up rhetoric...


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## Lex Foutish (22 Feb 2011)

DonDub said:


> Some of the above comments remind me of the goings on in the Soviet Union, where everything in society was dictated by the state e.g. where people worked, what they did, how they did it.
> Apparently, we are not living in a totalitarian state (yet). Although, teachers (like many others in the PS) will blame 'the department' when it suits e.g. hours etc are laid down by the department . Of course, they will attack the department at the merest hint of any real change.
> 
> Teachers should work significantly longer hours, for in-service training, and increased contact time with pupils e.g. through shorter holidays. Perish the thought that teachers might become tired through such exertions. *I mean, most of us in the real world (lucky enough to have a job) know what tiredness is all about - it's a fact of life.*
> ...


 

Very strange comment. What kind of "real world" do you live in, exactly?  

Forgive me but, you sound like you work in a forced-labour camp.


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## DonDub (22 Feb 2011)

Your 'forced labour camp' comment is I suspect, how most PS employees view the experience of employees in the private sector i.e. compulsory redundancy, restructuring, emigration.....are for the 'others', and not for the 'elite' insiders......


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## Lex Foutish (22 Feb 2011)

DonDub said:


> Your 'forced labour camp' comment is I suspect, *how most PS employees view the experience of employees in the private sector* i.e. compulsory redundancy, restructuring, emigration.....are for the 'others', and not for the 'elite' insiders......


 
Maybe I was thinkinking of Soviet labour camps. 

How do you know *"how most PS employees view the experience of employees in the private sector?"* 

You seem very biased against them. Can you read their minds as well?


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## Deiseblue (22 Feb 2011)

DonDub said:


> I prefer to see it for what it is...a well organised and powerful vested interest group (the teachers unions) aligning with another powerful vested interest group (FF) to stitch up Joe & Josephine public. Warren Buffett said 'it is only when the tide goes out, that you can see who is swimming naked'. FF are starkers....so to are their friends in ICTU........and both are trying to cover up their modesty with
> tired and washed up rhetoric...



A plot !

Engineered by the Dept. Of Education , the employees union , the parent's organisation and the schools , all with the connivance of the Evil Empire of FF - all determined to hoodwink the public !

Are you Jim Corr ?


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## Lex Foutish (22 Feb 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> *A plot !*
> 
> Engineered by the Dept. Of Education , the employees union , the parent's organisation and the schools , all with the connivance of the Evil Empire of FF - all determined to hoodwink the public !
> 
> *Are you Jim Corr ?*


 
Lol!


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## thedaras (22 Feb 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> A plot !
> 
> Engineered by the Dept. Of Education , the employees union , the parent's organisation and the schools , all with the connivance of the Evil Empire of FF - all determined to hoodwink the public !
> 
> Are you Jim Corr ?



What a red herring!!, I could have asked on several occasions,,,,Are you Jack O Connor..
Anyhow DonDUB as Purple mentioned in an earlier post,dont get distracted ..
Vested interests are alive and kicking..and throwing red herrings around left right and centre...ùsually from the left at the right and centre!

You have made excellent posts,but childish responses asking if you are Jim Corr, just show how some have no sense of mature debate..Its a real sense of desperation..which is good..they are not the only ones sensing what is coming down the tracks ,change is coming, regardless..


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## Lex Foutish (22 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> What a red herring!!, I could have asked on several occasions,,,,*Are you Jack O Connor*..
> Anyhow DonDUB as Purple mentioned in an earlier post,dont get distracted ..
> Vested interests are alive and kicking..and throwing red herrings around left right and centre...ùsually from the left at the right and centre!
> 
> You have made excellent posts,but childish responses asking if you are Jim Corr, just show how some have no sense of mature debate..Its a real sense of desperation..which is good..they are not the only ones sensing what is coming down the tracks ,change is coming, regardless..


 
Ah-ha, Deise, you've been outed and exposed as a fraud!!!!! 

You're not DeiseBLUE at all. You're really Deise*RED*!


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## Deiseblue (23 Feb 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> Ah-ha, Deise, you've been outed and exposed as a fraud!!!!!
> 
> You're not DeiseBLUE at all. You're really Deise*RED*!



Damn , found out by a combination of  Don Dub and Thedaras !


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## Lex Foutish (23 Feb 2011)

Lex Foutish said:


> Ah-ha, Deise, you've been outed and exposed as a fraud!!!!!
> 
> You're not DeiseBLUE at all. You're really Deise*RED*!


 


Deiseblue said:


> *Damn , found out by a combination of Don Dub and Thedaras* !


 

Amazing what you get with a combination of like minded people! 



And just you wait till Purple gets his hands on the above information about you.....  Your beard will have to go, for starters!!!!!!


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## liaconn (23 Feb 2011)

DonDub said:


> Your 'forced labour camp' comment is I suspect, how most PS employees view the experience of employees in the private sector i.e. compulsory redundancy, restructuring, emigration.....are for the 'others', and not for the 'elite' insiders......


 
That's right DonDub. We live in fear of ever having to become like 'private sector people' and spend our days looking down on them.


Seriously, get over yourself!!!


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## liaconn (23 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> What a red herring!!, I could have asked on several occasions,,,,Are you Jack O Connor..
> Anyhow DonDUB as Purple mentioned in an earlier post,dont get distracted ..
> Vested interests are alive and kicking..and throwing red herrings around left right and centre...ùsually from the left at the right and centre!
> 
> You have made excellent posts,but childish responses asking if you are Jim Corr, just show how some have no sense of mature debate..Its a real sense of desperation..which is good..they are not the only ones sensing what is coming down the tracks ,change is coming, regardless..


 
Thedaras, how come when anyone disagrees with you or points out a flaw in your arguments, you dismiss them as childish? It's becoming a bit repetitive.


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## thedaras (23 Feb 2011)

Ahh you guys... I'm feeling rather bullied by your last EIGHT posts! Are you trying desperately to say something,but cant quite find the words..bless..

Whenever you two decide to leave the playground and come back to the adult world of debate and discussion on a mature level.. perhaps we can have a reasonable debate.


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## liaconn (23 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Ahh you guys... I'm feeling rather bullied by your last EIGHT posts! Are you trying desperately to say something,but cant quite find the words..bless..
> 
> Whenever you two decide to leave the playground and come back to the adult world of debate and discussion on a mature level.. perhaps we can have a reasonable debate.


 
Everyone being childish again except Thedaras


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## csirl (23 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Vested interests are alive and kicking..and throwing red herrings around left right and centre...ùsually from the left at the right and centre!
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Deiseblue (23 Feb 2011)

csirl said:


> thedaras said:
> 
> 
> > Vested interests are alive and kicking..and throwing red herrings around left right and centre...ùsually from the left at the right and centre!
> ...


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## Purple (23 Feb 2011)

If people start throwing red herrings just stand behind the elephant in the room.

BTW, Deisered knows I know he's a pinko.


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## Deiseblue (23 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> If people start throwing red herrings just stand behind the elephant in the room.
> 
> BTW, Deisered knows I know he's a pinko.



I do indeed , Purple.

Unfortunately " We'll keep the pink flag flying high " doesn't have a good ring about it , does it ?


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## Purple (23 Feb 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> I do indeed , Purple.
> 
> Unfortunately " We'll keep the pink flag flying high " doesn't have a good ring about it , does it ?



Lol, no, not quite.
Not unless you have a copy of The Petshop Boys singing "The Internationale"


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## Deiseblue (23 Feb 2011)

Purple said:


> Lol, no, not quite.
> Not unless you have a copy of The Petshop Boys singing "The Internationale"


 LoL


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