# Micheál Martin wants 250,000 Irish speakers by 2030



## DB74 (7 Feb 2011)

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...d-to-extinction-of-irish-language-492560.html

I would prefer to see useful languages taught in our primary schools

eg

French
German
Chinese

The Irish language is a waste of time and money in this country


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## Ceist Beag (7 Feb 2011)

I don't agree with your take on the Irish language DB74, I'm quite proud of it. But I do agree that this would be a very poor use of our limited funds. I think the state is spending far too much money on the language. If people are interested in learning the language they will do so off their own bat, the state should not need to be so heavily involved. I fully agree with the FG take on this - leave the language to those with an interest and a love for it and don't force it on anyone not interested.


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## horusd (7 Feb 2011)

Our language is an inate part of who we are, losing it would represent a huge cultural loss. We also speak "hiberno-English in Ireland, where English has been transformed by it's exposure to Irish, much to our benefit and to the world's, in the writings of various artists. It has also been shown that people who have more than one language more readily pick up another. The Israeli 's successfully re-launched Hebrew as a language, most Israeli's can speak it and  often a range of other languages.


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## Sunny (7 Feb 2011)

Yeah, I agree with the other posters. I have no problem with increasing the number of Irish speakers. I dont see it as a waste of time. I speak three languages but consider it a disgrace that I can't speak Irish but the love of the language was beaten out of me in school and can't face going back to it!


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## oldtimer (7 Feb 2011)

db74 said:


> http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...d-to-extinction-of-irish-language-492560.html
> 
> i would prefer to see useful languages taught in our primary schools
> 
> ...


+1


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## truthseeker (7 Feb 2011)

If people want to learn Irish let them do so by choosing it as an optional subject at secondary school level or outside of school entirely.

The way its taught in schools is clearly not working - how many people on this site were subjected to Irish in school and cannot speak a word of it now, and worse, as Sunny says, the love of it beaten out of her in school!! 

Teach kids stuff that might help them go on to do something useful in life. A dose of basic financial management would have been far better than any Irish class for the many people with massive amounts of personal debt and no clue how they find themselves in dire financial straits.


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## thedaras (7 Feb 2011)

Agree entirely that the way its being thought in school is not working!

I have sent my kids to the gaeltacht and it has had an amazing effect on them.
After those three weeks I would say their level of Irish had been improved a hundred fold.

One of my kids will be attending Irish secondary school.
It is interesting that this Irish school is one of the top preforming schools in Ireland!.And all through Irish..long may it live.

I have to admit I am dreadful at the cupla focal,but when I hear the local kids on the bus speaking in Irish,I feel very proud, especially when there are Spanish and French students around,in other words to be able to speak our own language is such a brilliant thing to have,we need to change how it is taught more than anything else.

Cant imagine making a suggestion to the French that they should get rid of their language!!


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## roker (8 Feb 2011)

How many of the big multi-national companies require Irish? it cetainly will not help them to get a job.
What will the French speak if they get rid of french?


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## horusd (8 Feb 2011)

There's a point being missed here . Language, or life for that matter, is not solely about getting a job. We are human, not worker bees. I accept the point that foreign languages would be useful, and this is best done quite young. I know kids who were educated thro French, and you can also be taught thro the medium of German or Japanese, this opens them to all the cultures of those countries. All this enrichs people, and Irish does the same, but it also introduces children to one of the most ancient and richest cultures of Europe.


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## truthseeker (8 Feb 2011)

horusd said:


> All this enrichs people, and Irish does the same, but it also introduces children to one of the most ancient and richest cultures of Europe.


 
I dont disagree with this - but currently they way Irish is being taught in schools is having the effect of turning children off the language altogether. There is nothing stopping parents enrolling children in extra curricular Irish in the same way they do for a child who loves music or dancing. At the moment it just seems to be wasting classroom time.


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## Sunny (8 Feb 2011)

truthseeker said:


> I dont disagree with this - but currently they way Irish is being taught in schools is having the effect of turning children off the language altogether. There is nothing stopping parents enrolling children in extra curricular Irish in the same way they do for a child who loves music or dancing. At the moment it just seems to be wasting classroom time.


 
Its not just Irish though. It't the teaching of all languages. I only learnt when I left school and worked abroad. Before that I hated languages. I don't know what happens in schools these days so can't really comment I suppose but I would like the teaching of languages (and science) to start earlier and get kids excited about it. No point waiting until they are 12-13 years old.


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## thedaras (8 Feb 2011)

truthseeker said:


> I dont disagree with this - but currently they way Irish is being taught in schools is having the effect of turning children off the language altogether. There is nothing stopping parents enrolling children in extra curricular Irish in the same way they do for a child who loves music or dancing. At the moment it just seems to be wasting classroom time.



Or we could change the way it is taught??

Because the logic will become that all subjects not directly relevant to aquiring a job should be extra circular.

Here is something that could work
;[broken link removed]


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## truthseeker (8 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Because the logic will become that all subjects not directly relevant to aquiring a job should be extra circular.


 
Do kids not do a variety of subjects (at leaving cert level), some of which have no impact on getting a job? For example, if you did Physics and Home Economics you could end up in a science lab and never use the Home Ec for the job - or end up in a restaurant and never use the Physics for the job?

Why couldnt Irish be optional at Leaving Cert level - such as the above examples? That way if a kid has shown interest in it they can continue to do it - also an overhaul to how it is taught is needed.


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## Staples (8 Feb 2011)

The Irish language has a value but it comes at a significant cost. IMHO, the devotion of significant state resources towards its life support has never been justfiable but in the current circumstances it's become nonsensical. In the public service, for example, the cost of producing publications is more than doubled because of the legal requirement to print an Irish language version. And for whom? The scattering of die-hards who insist on them as a right, even though they never get read.

Forcing anything on people, particularly kids, only serves to cause resentment. Those interested in the language's development need to go back to basics and adopt some innovative approach that doesn't involve force-feeding.

The time kids spend at school is limited.  As a priority, you need to teach them the skills that will be actually be useful to them in later life.  The Irish language is a luxury we can't necessarily absorb.


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## Teatime (8 Feb 2011)

I think there is too much money spent on Irish (e.g. European law translations that nobody reads) and it should be completely optional at school. Irish became 'cool' during the Celtic Tiger but I think people will steer their kids towards more useful languages from now on.


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## Mpsox (8 Feb 2011)

roker said:


> How many of the big multi-national companies require Irish? it cetainly will not help them to get a job.
> What will the French speak if they get rid of french?


 
Interestingly I work for one of those companies, we were recently asked to design a public sector website and it had to be in Irish and English. We dodn't have someone who could do it, ended up hiring a friend of mine who is an Irish teacher to translate it over a weekend.


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## Staples (8 Feb 2011)

Mpsox said:


> We dodn't have someone who could do it, ended up hiring a friend of mine who is an Irish teacher to translate it over a weekend.


 
And the same person could have put in a letter to Santa in Irish and nobody would know the difference.


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## Yorrick (8 Feb 2011)

The fact that Martin wants 250000 Irish speakers by 2030 is a complete indictment of the educational system seeing as most people study the language for 14 years already.

I am not against Irish and am in favour of it being taught.
However our highly qualified young people have to emigrate to Australia etc to engage in basis agricultural work while Intel, Dell Hewlett Packard are bring in graduates from France, Spain etc to service their international clients. High paid jobs the Irish could do if they had proper contintal langauage teaching


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## liaconn (8 Feb 2011)

Staples said:


> And the same person could have put in a letter to Santa in Irish and nobody would know the difference.


 
I agree. Govt Depts now have to get certain documents and reports translated into Irish. They send them to a translator, get it back, no one in the area is able to check it or proof read it so God knows what it says.


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## Staples (8 Feb 2011)

Any Government overseeing an educational system that imposes the teaching of Irish over say French, German or Chinese is failing its citizens.


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## csirl (8 Feb 2011)

If you ask most people if they think that teaching children to speak Irish (or any other language) is a good idea, most will say yes.

But the question that should be asked is if people think that teaching children to speak Irish, instead of teaching them science, is a good idea, how many would say yes? 

But this is exactly the situation we are currently in. The teaching of Irish in primary school IS at the expense of teaching science, which gets very little time in the primary school timetable in comparison with most developed countries. 

And people wonder why multinationals complain about poor standards in science and mathematics.


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## redbhoy (8 Feb 2011)

DB74 said:


> http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...d-to-extinction-of-irish-language-492560.html
> 
> I would prefer to see useful languages taught in our primary schools
> 
> ...


 
Because money is the be all and end all?? Maybe some people are proud of their heritage and think it should be given as much resources as possible?


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## DB74 (8 Feb 2011)

redbhoy said:


> Because money is the be all and end all?? Maybe some people are proud of their heritage and think it should be given as much resources as possible?


 
Money IS the be-all-and-end-all in this country at the moment


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## redbhoy (8 Feb 2011)

DB74 said:


> Money IS the be-all-and-end-all in this country at the moment


 
I wish you well in Life so.


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## DB74 (8 Feb 2011)

redbhoy said:


> I wish you well in Life so.


 
Thanks and go n'éirí an t-ádh leat (I think!)


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## redbhoy (8 Feb 2011)

DB74 said:


> Thanks and go n'éirí an t-ádh leat (I think!)


 
Cheap tú go maith 
I have a little Irish and Id rather see more resources pouring into the Irish Language than it going into a banking black hole.


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## Staples (8 Feb 2011)

redbhoy said:


> Maybe some people are proud of their heritage and think it should be given as much resources as possible?


 
It's the "as possible" bit that's critical.  It's harder to justify spending money on protecting the language when other more critical services are being neglected for want of funding.


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## thedaras (8 Feb 2011)

truthseeker said:


> Do kids not do a variety of subjects (at leaving cert level), some of which have no impact on getting a job? For example, if you did Physics and Home Economics you could end up in a science lab and never use the Home Ec for the job - or end up in a restaurant and never use the Physics for the job?
> 
> Why couldnt Irish be optional at Leaving Cert level - such as the above examples? That way if a kid has shown interest in it they can continue to do it - also an overhaul to how it is taught is needed.



Yes , they have to make choices for their subjects and can do extra ones if they choose to do so at the moment thats the way it is.

You could also do history and never use it,geography,home ec,religion,in fact almost all subjects you may never use,but this as you know is not the reason for doing them..

I agree that if a kid shows an interest they should have a choice of continuing in it.But this is not necessarily a choice.

For example my niece is brilliant at Art, the school she goes to gives them options and they pick say three of those,she wasn't picked to do art!!

I understand that in Italy a kid who is about 13/14 can decide what type of higher school to go to,ie one that leans a particular way,say towards the arts or business or sports,which is probably a good idea.

Also I know in Scotland that having finished our junior cert equivalent the kids there have to concentrate only on maybe four subjects,of their choosing.

So I agree based on how badly its being taught that it should not be compulsory, but that is a teaching issue,and what happens if we drop Irish,what subject is next??


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## Lex Foutish (8 Feb 2011)

thedaras said:


> Yes , they have to make choices for their subjects and can do extra ones if they choose to do so at the moment thats the way it is.
> 
> You could also do history and never use it,geography,home ec,religion,in fact almost all subjects you may never use,but this as you know is not the reason for doing them..
> 
> ...



Can I assume so, that most Italian children go to school in Pisa?


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## Lex Foutish (8 Feb 2011)

Staples said:


> Any Government overseeing an educational system that imposes the teaching of Irish over say French, German or Chinese is failing its citizens.



I'm always amazed that the Irish education system doesn't see fit to promote Spanish much more in schools. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why French and German seem to be the most commonly taught languages in schools. It seems daft to me.

Spanish is the 3rd most widely spoken language in the world. German is 10th and French is 14th!


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## Lex Foutish (9 Feb 2011)

Sunny said:


> Yeah, I agree with the other posters. I have no problem with increasing the number of Irish speakers. I dont see it as a waste of time. I speak three languages but consider it a disgrace that I can't speak Irish but the love of t*he language was beaten out of me in school* and can't face going back to it!



On the flip side of that, Sunny, it was beaten *into* us in secondary school. I always loved the language but my worst secondary school memories are of what happened during Irish classes!


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## Lex Foutish (9 Feb 2011)

csirl said:


> If you ask most people if they think that teaching children to speak Irish (or any other language) is a good idea, most will say yes.
> 
> But the question that should be asked is if people think that teaching children to speak Irish, instead of teaching them science, is a good idea, how many would say yes?
> 
> ...



There's speculation at present that there will be a move away from the current, wide primary school curriculum, in favour of spending more time at maths, English and science.

Between 15 and 20% of primary school time is taken up with the teaching of Irish. I'm not sure that this time will have been well spent on those who will spend their lives living and working in Australia and Canada.......... 

They'll be like the lads abroad in the Carlsberg ad, talking about Sharon Ní Bheoláin and cáca milis!


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## Bronte (9 Feb 2011)

If Irish were optional no one would do it.  That's the truth and all those gaelscolanna would disappear.  I wasted 14 years learning Irish and I can't even speak a sentence of it never mind write it.  And the same goes for nearly everyone on AAM.  Despite this I have passed it in my leaving certificate and also for a qualification.  

The 'false' percentages given of Irish speakers is a lie to keep money flowing to vested interest.  I have no problem with those who can and do speak Irish in the gaeltaecht and have no problem with the financial support, if wisely spent on them.  I know people on the Udaras and I know the waste it is.  

If anyone were serious about Irish it should be made compulsory, from day one at school.  My other half learnt English when he went to school and that's the day he started to lose his Irish.  How we Irish learnt English is because it was compulsory.  It has been thanks to English that I and my husband have jobs.  That is also why the Irish had an advantage in the UK and America.    They will never make it compulsory as there would be riots and we'd soon see how many people actually support it.  

We're even going to have the unedifying spectacle of a leaders debate in Irish and I'm in no doubt that there will not be any proper debate, only rote learnt replies and the level will not be in any way equal to the standard of English.  As far as I'm aware none of the leaders is a native speaker, does not live in an Irish speaking household, does not conduct any business in Irish, doesn't have contact with Irish speakers, doesn't write in Irish nor watch TV in Irish.  Watching TG4 with subtitles doesn't count.  No doubt the debate will be translated into English on the spot.  And we can all then debate the translation.  What a merry-go-round.


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## truthseeker (9 Feb 2011)

Bronte said:


> If Irish were optional no one would do it. That's the truth and all those gaelscolanna would disappear.


 
I dunno Bronte - there are enough people who post on here about the importance of preserving our heritage and culture through Irish being taught - surely in the wider population there would be enough people who feel like this to warrant some children being encouraged to do Irish? 

Would it not be like other optional subjects - some are more or less popular in some schools, some are more or less popular by dint of being more or less interesting etc....


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## Ceist Beag (9 Feb 2011)

Have to disagree with some of that Bronte. I don't believe that no one would learn Irish if it were optional - I believe the opposite, that it would be those who want to learn it that would take it, thus resulting in a better appreciation for the language in those that do take it. Obviously the teaching methods would need to be improved as well. All of this will be gradual rather than any quick change but I think long term making it optional will increase the appetite to learn it.


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## horusd (9 Feb 2011)

> If Irish were optional no one would do it. That's the truth and all those gaelscolanna would disappear


 

Quite a claim Bronte! Extrapolating from your opinion & experience to such an absolute statement is a bit OTT. Although I have to say" Peig" damaged me in ways I haven't ever come to terms with.


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## csirl (9 Feb 2011)

> If Irish were optional no one would do it. That's the truth and all those gaelscolanna would disappear.


 
If Irish speakers didnt get bonus marks in State exams and didnt get an easier entry route into some professions e.g. teaching, we would also have a dramatic reduction in the no. of gaelscolanna.

While it's not politically correct to say it, the other factor in the gaelscolanna revolution is parents in areas with high numbers of non-national not wanting their kids to go to english speaking schools which are full of kids who can't actually speak english. It's no coincidence that the biggest growth in the gaelscolanna movement has been in suburbs with very high % of non-nationals.


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## Bronte (9 Feb 2011)

horusd said:


> Quite a claim Bronte! Extrapolating from your opinion & experience to such an absolute statement is a bit OTT. Although I have to say" Peig" damaged me in ways I haven't ever come to terms with.


 
I read Peig in English so I could know what it was about and so that I could pass Irish. Irish is a requirement for entry to University and is compulsory too so that's the reason people 'study' it along with it being a requirment for certain positions/jobs. Maybe I'm OTT but never fear the Gaelgoir's will come to the rescue and we are in letting off steam territory. 

My culture and heritage is in no way diminished by not being able to speak Irish. 

If Irish were taken seriously, which it is not nor never will be then I might have a different viewpoint.

Wonder how many of you would tell your children not to do Irish if it was not compulsory and not necessary for university. Would you encourage them to do a different language or subject.


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## truthseeker (9 Feb 2011)

Bronte said:


> Irish is a requirement for entry to University and is compulsory too so that's the reason people 'study' it.


 
I dont believe Irish is a requirement for University (well for some courses perhaps - but not all).


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## Bronte (9 Feb 2011)

I modified my last post.  

Don't know why but I thought Irish, English and Maths had to be passed for uni?


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## DB74 (9 Feb 2011)

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...cation_procedures_and_entry_requirements.html

*National University of Ireland:* The minimum entry requirement for the universities that are part of the National University of Ireland (NUI) is 6 subjects, including English, Irish and a third language. In 2 of these subjects, students must have achieved grade C at Higher Level. 

*University of Limerick: *The minimum entry requirement is 6 subjects, including English, Irish and a third language. In 2 of these subjects, students must have achieved grade C at Higher Level. 

*Trinity College Dublin: *students need a minimum of 6 subjects, with grade C on 3 Higher-Level papers and a pass in English, maths and another language.

*Dublin City University:* all students applying for courses in Dublin City University must have 6 Leaving Certificate subjects, with a grade C on 2 Higher-Level papers and a pass in maths and either English or Irish. 


*Institutes of technology*

*Level 8 (Honours Degree) courses:* students generally require a minimum of grade C in 2 subjects at Higher Level and grade D in 4 other subjects, including maths and Irish/English.

*Levels 6 and 7 (Higher Certificate and Ordinary Degree):* students require 5 grade Ds, including maths and Irish/English. 


*Colleges of education*

Colleges of education require a minimum of 3 grade Cs on Higher-Level papers, including Irish, and three grade Ds, including maths and English.


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## Rovers1901 (9 Feb 2011)

Veering slightly offtopic but how many people felt they were fluent in a foreign language on leaving secondary? The constant refrain in these discussions is "I spent XX years learning irish and I can't speak a word". 

After 6 years (or whatever) learning german or French are our schoolkids fluent? 

Or are those who are reasonable at German/French etc after 6 years  also reasonable at Irish?


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## truthseeker (9 Feb 2011)

Apologies Bronte - I had checked TCDs entry requirements and assumed it was similar for other Universities (silly me!!).

It does seem to be a requirement for many of them.

And I totally agree with you - if it wasnt a University requirement and it wasnt compulsory no doubt a lot of people wouldnt study it. Some still would though I believe.

Surely its not right to force study of a subject that many people wouldnt want to study by using the entry requirements to Universities as a barrier if you havent studied it?

It doesnt make any sense to me. Mind you Id apply that over all subjects - why would someone who studies languages at University level need a pass in lc maths? The entire system should be overhauled and people allowed to study things that interest them, with no compulsary subjects (at secondary level).

Give people a good all round grounding at primary level and then let them make their own minds up on all subject choices later.


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## truthseeker (9 Feb 2011)

Rovers1901 said:


> Veering slightly offtopic but how many people felt they were fluent in a foreign language on leaving secondary?


 
I was not good at either Irish or French - and not interested in either of them. I veer more along the maths/science subjects path of interest and ability.

Had I been allowed to drop both languages and take up a couple more science subjects I probably would have had a better leaving cert.


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## DB74 (9 Feb 2011)

truthseeker said:


> I was not good at either Irish or French - and not interested in either of them. I veer more along the maths/science subjects path of interest and ability.
> 
> Had I been allowed to drop both languages and take up a couple more science subjects I probably would have had a better leaving cert.


 
Same as me there

I was quite good at Irish in primary but when I went to secondary there were about 8 pupils who had attended a Gaelscoil for primary so the teacher insisted on running the class at their speed and conducted every single lesson through Irish. Not one word of English was allowed in the class. Really turned me off the language and I grew to hate Irish class. Eventually I took pass-level Irish for the Leaving (changed on the day) and the teacher was disgusted.

I regret not making more of an effort in French or German class, for example when I travelled to those countries or met people from those countries.

Especially the French people!


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## cork (10 Feb 2011)

I went back to it a few years ago.

They are so many conversational circles around.

I am not great with either verbs or grammer - but speaking it is more important.

Many non - nationals are now learning the language.

Michael Martin is 100% right on this one.


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## Sunny (10 Feb 2011)

The problem with all languages are that they are taught badly and they start too late. Much the same as science.


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