# protecting my business idea.. patents?



## paperclip (27 Sep 2008)

Hi. I've come up with a pretty unique business idea... i've told a few people i trust, family and close friends, and they think it's a really great idea, so, i'd really like to make a go of it. 

The thing is, i'm currently half way through a world trip... i've been able to do research online, and am 99% sure that there's nothing like this on the market.

I've a friend back home who wants to go in on this with me, and she's already started the ball rolling and is waiting to hear back from enterprise ireland.

the thing is, i'd like to patent this.... can someone please answer the following...

1.) do i need to be back in ireland to do this?

2.) i've been reading on here that they're expensive... how expensive? 

3.) can you patent an idea, or do you need a working prototype.

4,) what are the different types, ireland, europe... the world? 

thanks, i don't have too much business acumen


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## BobbyFowler (27 Sep 2008)

www.patentsoffice.ie

The guys at the Patents Office are really helpful from my experience.  Maybe get your friend to go to the Local Enterprise Board as well checking with Enterprise Ireland.  If you get the patent & then someone copies or puts a slant on your idea before bringing it to market it could end up costing a lot of money to challenge it.
The patent is probably the last of your worries just now - see if you've a decent business model first.  Good luck!


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## Purple (28 Sep 2008)

I have been involved in getting international patents and Enterprise Ireland can offer both expert and financial support. There are lots of different types of patent but the real question you have to ask yourself is can you afford to defend it? Do you have the financial resources to take a case to the Chinese high court (or equivalent there of)?
If your product is a consumer good your best option is to patent it and then license it to a big company. 
While you are waiting for your patent application to be passed make sure that you have a standard nondisclosure agreement with any person or organisation that you speak to, otherwise showing them your idea puts it in the public domain and invalidates your patent application.


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## Complainer (28 Sep 2008)

1 suggestion - stop telling people your idea, unless/until you have your patents sorted.


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## paperclip (29 Sep 2008)

thanks for the input guys....

i've mailed the patent office some questions and am just waiting to hear back from them.

Complainer, i've only told my family, and the 2 people, close friends, who i'd like to go into business with.... thing is, one of em's told his sister...

i'm sure it'll be grand, but ye never know who she'll talk to, her husband.... i'm telling no one else, and would like to get it protected...


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## Irldigi (29 Sep 2008)

Paperclip,

If you need to talk to any other people, make sure you get them to sign a standard NDA - Non-Disclosure Agreement

D


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## mathepac (29 Sep 2008)

paperclip said:


> ... Complainer, i've only told my family, and the 2 people, close friends, who i'd like to go into business with.... thing is, one of em's told his sister...



If you proceed with your patent application one of the first things you'll be asked is if information about the product is in the public domain.

It sounds to me like it is.

Best of luck with the application and the product.


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## paperclip (1 Oct 2008)

mathepac said:


> If you proceed with your patent application one of the first things you'll be asked is if information about the product is in the public domain.
> 
> It sounds to me like it is.
> 
> Best of luck with the application and the product.



i pm'd purple, he said it's cool as long as they don't pursue it as a business themselves....

also, i had to tell the 2 friends who i want to do this with.

i think most people who have, what they consider a good business idea, run it by close family and friends before going for it... if it's an issue, i can just put down that no one knows on the application.

it's like a huge mountain to climb.... big respect to those who start their own business...


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## paperclip (1 Oct 2008)

update... just had a word with the patent office... and it all looks pretty straight forward...

i can print off an application form online... send it off with a description and some drawings of it, and then it's a patent pending... 

application is 125euro... 

they said the application would be reviewed and i'd be notified if it needs to be amended or anything clarified...

they did say something about a search fee... which can be paid further down the road, 250euro...

so, i guess i'll get the ball rolling...

i'm 99% sure this hasn't been done yet, so, time to get the finger out...


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## WaterSprite (1 Oct 2008)

Unless your idea is v simple, I'd recommend getting an IP lawyer to check out your patent application before you file.

I should disclose that I'm a lawyer (but not a patent lawyer)

Sprite


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## ClubMan (1 Oct 2008)

paperclip said:


> if it's an issue, i can just put down that no one knows on the application.


Yeah - sure it's only a legal document so who cares if you lie?


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## paperclip (1 Oct 2008)

it's pretty simple... as in it can be explained in 4 words.

would i need a specific patent lawyer.... how much do you guys charge?





WaterSprite said:


> Unless your idea is v simple, I'd recommend getting an IP lawyer to check out your patent application before you file.
> 
> I should disclose that I'm a lawyer (but not a patent lawyer)
> 
> Sprite


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## WaterSprite (1 Oct 2008)

paperclip said:


> it's pretty simple... as in it can be explained in 4 words.
> 
> would i need a specific patent lawyer.... how much do you guys charge?



Well, I'm not one of "those guys" myself and patent lawyers are generally quite expensive unfortunately.  You can have one help you draft the application and then hold off and see if the patent office comes back with questions as part of the examination process.  If you involve one in Ireland for the entire process, you could be looking at 10-20k (it all depends on the level of complexity of the invention).  But if the idea is genuinely novel and you think it could make you a lot of money, then it will be worth it to protect it properly.  There are libraries full of legal cases about the interpretation of patents and, unfortunately, if your patent is really valuable, that just means that others will hire expensive lawyers to pick over it if/when it's granted to find a way around it - having a lawyer draft the application will help you apply for the maximum appropriate protection.  Not knowing anything about the invention, it's impossible to comment on its patentability and value.  I'd suggest at least going for an initial consultation with a patent agent here in Ireland and get quotes for each stage of the process and then decide.  I'd imagine they charge 200-300 per hour and they should be able to give you a fixed fee quote for the patent application process.

You also need to think about where you want to protect the invention - Ireland only?  Europe too?  The US, Japan?  Lawyers' fees can increase exponentially as a result unfort.

Sprite


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## Purple (1 Oct 2008)

WaterSprite said:


> You also need to think about where you want to protect the invention - Ireland only?  Europe too?  The US, Japan?  Lawyers' fees can increase exponentially as a result unfort.
> 
> Sprite


You also have to ask yourself if you have the resources to defend your patent in China etc.

Paperclip; have you or your representative contacted Enterprise Ireland or your local Enterprise Board? They can advise and offer financial advice.


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## ClubMan (1 Oct 2008)

paperclip said:


> it's pretty simple... as in it can be explained in 4 words.


A 4 word description is extremely unlikely to cut it for a patent application.


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## roro123 (1 Oct 2008)

I had a similar problem when I invented the Underwater Hairdryer - seems like some Kerryman stole my plans. 
Just kidding... it was actually the waterproof teabag, but theres one thing patenting a product ,theres a whole load of more important ground work, where to get funding, source manufacturers if its a product, market research, you can't patent an idea on its own, you need to back it up with drawings , possibly a prototype although this is not always necessary, if you discuss this with anyone especially potential business associates you should have them sign a confidentiality agreement.
Good Luck, and lets hope its not "A Perpetual Motion Machine"


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## paperclip (2 Oct 2008)

10-20k... that's very expensive, for a start up business... are those costs purely for lawyer fees?

i'm very confident with this, so i'd like to have it protected.



WaterSprite said:


> Well, I'm not one of "those guys" myself and patent lawyers are generally quite expensive unfortunately.  You can have one help you draft the application and then hold off and see if the patent office comes back with questions as part of the examination process.  If you involve one in Ireland for the entire process, you could be looking at 10-20k (it all depends on the level of complexity of the invention).  But if the idea is genuinely novel and you think it could make you a lot of money, then it will be worth it to protect it properly.  There are libraries full of legal cases about the interpretation of patents and, unfortunately, if your patent is really valuable, that just means that others will hire expensive lawyers to pick over it if/when it's granted to find a way around it - having a lawyer draft the application will help you apply for the maximum appropriate protection.  Not knowing anything about the invention, it's impossible to comment on its patentability and value.  I'd suggest at least going for an initial consultation with a patent agent here in Ireland and get quotes for each stage of the process and then decide.  I'd imagine they charge 200-300 per hour and they should be able to give you a fixed fee quote for the patent application process.
> 
> You also need to think about where you want to protect the invention - Ireland only?  Europe too?  The US, Japan?  Lawyers' fees can increase exponentially as a result unfort.
> 
> Sprite


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## paperclip (2 Oct 2008)

E.I have put us on to dublin city enterprise board... lets see if they can help.



Purple said:


> You also have to ask yourself if you have the resources to defend your patent in China etc.
> 
> Paperclip; have you or your representative contacted Enterprise Ireland or your local Enterprise Board? They can advise and offer financial advice.


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## paperclip (2 Oct 2008)

the people i've told i trust completly... i do understand where you're coming from though....





roro123 said:


> I had a similar problem when I invented the Underwater Hairdryer - seems like some Kerryman stole my plans.
> Just kidding... it was actually the waterproof teabag, but theres one thing patenting a product ,theres a whole load of more important ground work, where to get funding, source manufacturers if its a product, market research, you can't patent an idea on its own, you need to back it up with drawings , possibly a prototype although this is not always necessary, if you discuss this with anyone especially potential business associates you should have them sign a confidentiality agreement.
> Good Luck, and lets hope its not "A Perpetual Motion Machine"


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## DrMoriarty (4 Oct 2008)

paperclip said:


> it's pretty simple... as in it can be explained in 4 words.


It doesn't by any chance involve , does it?


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## paperclip (6 Oct 2008)

no 



DrMoriarty said:


> It doesn't by any chance involve , does it?


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## Pope John 11 (12 Dec 2008)

Any update on this one.....I just had a few ideas myself but they are merely thoughts & dreams at present.


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## fmc (13 Dec 2008)

Just a question how many peoples ideas have actually been stolen? and whats to stop someone slightly modifying your idea  but enough to get away with it legally. Unless you are replacing the wheel just get started is my opinion. tell everyone and get feed back as has been said patenenting an idea you think is great dont make for a business even if its a fantastic idea dont mean people will want to pay enough for it to make a profitable  business. 
My 2 cents get it out there asap with a proto type and actually sell some to see if people will buy it and buy it again/recommend it to their friends if its that type of product. 
China will copy anything I or anyone else ask them too and all that will do is tie you up in the courts trying to sue people paying lawyers etc. you will have competiton regardless but it should improve your business in the long term .
Dont waste time and money on trying to stop people copying your idea because they will, just be ready to prove your is the original and best.

I'm sure other will say otherwise but thats my view.


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## murphaph (13 Dec 2008)

I studied a little bit on patents and IP as part of my engineering degree and it's a black art-you don't want to accurately describe your product (because then it's easy to make one from the patent application!) but you do want your patent to adequately protect your product. If you read a few patents you'll see how cryptic some of them can be when describing quite simple products. That's why Patent Attorneys charge so much. 

As has been mentioned a few times-the patent is worthless unless you can defend it in court(s) but you still need to have it in place if you are going to licence it to a big manufacturer (who will presumably be able to defend it if it's infringed upon).


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## murphaph (13 Dec 2008)

I studied a little bit on patents and IP as part of my engineering degree and it's a black art-you don't want to accurately describe your product (because then it's easy to make one from the patent application!) but you do want your patent to adequately protect your product. If you read a few patents you'll see how cryptic some of them can be when describing quite simple products. That's why Patent Attorneys charge so much. 

As has been mentioned a few times-the patent is worthless unless you can defend it in court(s) but you still need to have it in place if you are going to licence it to a big manufacturer (who will presumably be able to defend it if it's infringed upon).


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## PaddyBloggit (13 Dec 2008)

Hope it works out for you!
Another thing you might consider is registering a dot com (and maybe a dot ie) address. 
Register your business name with cro.ie - it will cost you €20 but will protect the name you choose and it will also provide you with the certification to register the dot ie domain name.


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## oopsbuddy (17 Dec 2008)

PaddyBloggit said:


> Hope it works out for you!
> Another thing you might consider is registering a dot com (and maybe a dot ie) address.
> Register your business name with cro.ie - it will cost you €20 but will protect the name you choose and it will also provide you with the certification to register the dot ie domain name.



Registering a business name will NOT give that name any protection; registering a COMPANY name will protect the company's name - to a degree. Be careful...!


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## paperclip (19 Dec 2008)

hey guys, well heres the latest.

ive done alot of patent research online.... discussed it on a few forums, and have been in touch with a few enterprise boards.....

my conclusion.... patents are very very expensive and labourous.... 

if your like me, thinking of starting up a company, and dont have large amounts of cash... well, i cant really see them being an option.

yes, id love to have one...... but i cant really see it being feesable.

ive heard reports of patents costing hundreds of thousands of dollars.... 

im not in a position to make a go of this yet, fingers crossed in a couple of months... 

one bit of advice i did get is.... send your ideas/notes via registered mail, to your solicitor.... aparently this proves you own intelectual property... 

ive no idea if this amounts to anything, in the event of your idea being stolen..... maybe someone on here can shed some light?

i agree with fmc... just get your idea out there, and deliver the best service you can.....

Pope John 11..... i hope you put your ideas into practice... im sure i will, all the best.


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## hhhhhhhhhh (19 Dec 2008)

paperclip said:


> hey guys, well heres the latest.
> 
> ive done alot of patent research online.... discussed it on a few forums, and have been in touch with a few enterprise boards.....
> 
> ...


Check out the DIT Hothouse, they can help you out with patents ref costs.
They can also pay for the full patent and then give you a license to use it.
[broken link removed]


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## paperclip (19 Dec 2008)

hhhhhhhhhh said:


> Check out the DIT Hothouse, they can help you out with patents ref costs.
> They can also pay for the full patent and then give you a license to use it.
> [broken link removed]


 
cheers, yes, was on to hothouse... i plan to sit down and have a talk with them about this.


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## mainasia (25 Dec 2008)

I know a businessman who spent over 1 million dollars on various patents, took him years to even start getting a return, his main patents were useless in the end as the product versus cost didn't add up even though the idea was great and potentially a blockbuster. His main revenue came in the end from Japan.... 
Start developing the prototype biz model/product now and you this will allow you to see the strong and weak points, then you can focus the patent on the revenue generating parts. Generally you must apply for patents within 1 year of making your idea publicly known (that could be as simple as a few lines in an e-mail or online forum). You must apply for US patents and other overseas patents within 1 year of local country patent, as far as I know. The big patents to get- EU, US, Japan, China... depends on your biz of course.
To fund the patent application you should find a business partner and offer to put his name on the patent (50:50 with you) in return for the funding which is fair as it's a very risky business. IMPORTANT: PUT THE PATENT IN YOUR NAME, NOT IN COMPANY NAME, THAT WAY IT CAN NEVER BE TAKEN AWAY FROM YOU.

It costs a fortune to defend a patent so it's only as valuable as the amount of money you are able to defend it for unless you can find a buyer to take it from you (read James Dyson's book about the invention of his unique vacuum cleaner for an interesting overview of patents and business).
To be honest you need to start first to get a real world view of the biz you intend to participate in....


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## paperclip (7 Jan 2009)

agree.. looks like a very costly road to go down....

do you know anything about sending your notes, to yourself, or your solicitor via *registered post?*

i´m sure i read on here somewhere, that this can give you some sort of intelectual property protection?


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## Purple (7 Jan 2009)

paperclip said:


> agree.. looks like a very costly road to go down....
> 
> do you know anything about sending your notes, to yourself, or your solicitor via *registered post?*
> 
> i´m sure i read on here somewhere, that this can give you some sort of intelectual property protection?



That will stop someone else who tries to say they came up with the idea. It may prove it's your idea but it won't stop others copying it.


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## WaterSprite (7 Jan 2009)

The only thing posting it to yourself does is provide some manner of proof of prior creation.  This doesn't help always with patents (see wikipedia blurb).  It also doesn't really help with copyright, except that the fact that you independently created it before a certain date may be useful to defend infringement proceedings brought against you (as opposed to being helpful for you to bring proceedings against someone else).  It may be useful if someone rips off your work but it's only persuasive, not dispositive.

It's certainly no harm to post it to yourself and keep the sealed envelope somewhere safe.

Unless you have filed a patent, you have no protection for your idea (outside of trade secret protection) so could only sue someone if they deliberately stole YOUR idea (rather than them coming up with it independently themselves).

Also note that you do NOT have a year from first disclosure to file a patent application in the EU - the only permitted disclosures are at certain approved exhibitions, which are unlikely to apply to your case.

If I was you, I'd do a consultation with a patent attorney (if your patent would be applicable in the US, I'd go to a US attorney rather than an Irish patent agent) and have a chat with them.  They'll often do it for free or little money as an initial consult, banking on you going ahead with the patent - you'd have to bear in mind that they would have a vested interest in your applying for a patent, but you will definitely get some good information.

If you talk to DIT, make sure you have a signed NDA before you disclose the patent.  I'd also contact Enterprise Ireland for advice (it may be useful) - ditto for the NDA if you go to EI.

If you are prepared to do a lot of the work in drafting the patent application yourself, you can cut down the costs of patent attorneys significantly.  But, as you and others have mentioned, it's costly to even sue someone for infringement, even if you have a patent...


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## Pope John 11 (6 Feb 2009)

Just curious, where can you check up on all previous patents for EU, US, ASIA, AUSTRALIA etc?

Is there a common list that one can check...or is it impossble to do this check without forking out a lot of cash.

Any thoughts


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## WaterSprite (6 Feb 2009)

I don't believe there's any free list you can search for all jurisdictions but you can search individually in the US [broken link removed] and Australia here (for example).  It's difficult to do a comprehensive search yourself.  Google, it ain't...


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## Pope John 11 (11 Oct 2009)

Everyone, always dreaming of a business idea, has anyone here been successful with a patent design


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## Complainer (11 Oct 2009)

I had a patent registered in the 90s, not to protect a business idea, but to facilitate tax avoidance by my client.


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## Pope John 11 (11 Oct 2009)

I have three very simple questions:

1. How long does it take to have an irish patent filed & for that matter how long does it take to get a european or US patent filed

2. Has anyone from experience, a list of steps one could take to achieve & protect their patent correctly

3. I would not have the appropiate funds to manufacture my idea, its currently been manufactured world wide at present, but my patent idea alters whats been manufactured. Is it possible for me to negotiate with these manufacturing companies, not one but many, to make my business a success, ie. gain a % of their profits etc


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