# forestry



## PGD1 (24 Jan 2008)

Hi,

I am looking to buy a parcel of land, some of which is in forestry (spruce).
I'm sure that this forest was planted 15 years ago under various grants schemes.

I don't really have any interest in a spruce forest.. but would be willing to maintain it for a number of years in order to make some money out of it, IF it wasn't too much hassle but I have a few questions.

1) if the land has been developed with grant aid, and I buy it, am I obliged to keep maintaining it until it's ready for felling?

2) If the trees are 15 years old when is the soonest they can be felled?

3) If you can't fell until they are approx 30... I'm not a famer so I assume that the non farmer premium ends at year 15, so I guess I need to maintain it for 10-15 years. What costs are involved in this second half of their life?

4) Does anybody know the current average price for an acre of spruce, when being sold to a mill?

Thanks!


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## mask (24 Jan 2008)

Hi;
I can answer some of your questions as  I have some forestry .
1 Yes . You must maintain it until it is felled and then replant the land in question.
2 Depends on the growth rate but unless very exceptional this would take another 15 to 20 years.
3. The plantation may need to be thinned , this might give a small preofit as the price and demand for thinnings is increasing.  It could end up costing though as the area involved is small
Insurance is another cost.It is not a must but if the plantation was to be destroyed you could be liable to replant at your own expense. 
4 Dont have a figure .


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Jan 2008)

> 1 Yes . You must maintain it until it is felled and *then replant the land in question*.



This really is the key. Once you have got grant aid for forestry, you are obliged to replant it as forestry. 

Forestry devalues land, so you should not really be looking at it as an investment, especially if you know nothing about it. 

Brendan


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## Gaz (24 Jan 2008)

Hello, If replanting the land is an issue for you. I would like to make you aware that the Irish Government are at present presenting a new forestry Bill that will in effect remove your 'obligation' to replant your land at clearfell stage. 
Check out the following link for further information.
[broken link removed]


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## PGD1 (24 Jan 2008)

Thanks for the info.

I don't mind replanting, as long as it doesn't have to be sitka spruce! and as long as you could leave a border around the site for privacy etc.

What happens if you just don't maintain it etc... do they just stop your premia and leave you alone???

I just want to buy a forest (preferably native woodland) but it's difficult to find the right patch. This site has other advantages but I'm worried I would be burdened with running a forest... and more importantly... it costing me money to maintain until it's 30. I'm non-farmer so I assume I get no premia on it as it is 17 years old... therefore the premia have run out???

It needs to be thinned but I have to assume I would break even on it or just make a small amount.

I suppose my questions are:

1) if I have to keep it for 15 years.... is there a way this won't cost me money?
2) how do I bail out of things ASAP so that I'm not obliged to manage it?


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## PGD1 (24 Jan 2008)

Are there any forestry companies that I can talk to about all this without having to pay? Just to get my head around it all. If they impressed me of course they could get the business!


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## Gaz (24 Jan 2008)

Your local Teagasc forestry development officer will be able to provide you with free, independent and objective advice on any technical or financial aspect you may have regarding forestry.

You can enter a partnership with companies such as Coillte or Greenbelt- who offer to manage the forestry, handle grant applications,etc- at a cost of course. If it is a broadleaf woodland it may require thinning/formative pruning at 17 years- this is beneficial to the woodland as it helps to open up canopy, encouraging more light and improve overall form of trees. 

My advice would be to seek professional advice from those companies listed above, grants are available for the management of woodland in addition to those for planting, but overall Forestry should not be looked as a short term investment. Hope this helps.


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## Woodsman (25 Jan 2008)

Hi

Depending on what you paid for the woodland, in general it is a good investment, contrary to what Brendan feels. Unplanted land is usually worth more than planted land because of the generous grants and premiums available, especially to farmers. However, all income from forestry, regardless of your status, is tax free. A normal plantation at 15 years will require thinning and this should not cost you as the trees felled should cover the costs. Subsequent thinnings should show an iincreasing profit as the trees increase in size. All this work can be overseen and carried out for you by a reputable forestery consultant and I can recommend one if you wish or you could contact either the Irish Timber Growers Association or the Society of Irish Foresters for advice. You are obliged to replant but you can do so with broadleaves if the land is good enough to support them. Or you can selectively fell and introduce broadleaves over a period of years so your woodland gradually moves from a conifer wood to a broadleaf one. You should get the area assessed by a forester who will tell you exactly the value of your trees. A good plantation at year 35 might be worth app six to eight thousand an acre and this lump sum will be tax free but you do need a proper professional assessment. So much depends on the growth rates of the trees, site access and proximity to other woodland. We have a national defecit of timber and this looks likely to continue with increasing demands for wood energy. So prices for timber are not expected to fall but rather increase.


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## PGD1 (25 Jan 2008)

Thanks again for all the info. I will definately contact Teagasc as a start.

Another Q....

My goal is to have land and native woodland for general use, not investment or building.

If this forest is 16 years old spruce and requires thinning and is suitable for other types of tress... when is the ealiest that I could start gradually replacing them? Do I need to wait until it's 2-3 years away from felling?

I'm not concerned with making a profit for the felled timber (but I wouldn't complain if I did!)... so I would be quite happy to sell off thinings before they are fully mature.

One final question!... at the final clearfell.... are you allowed to leave a border of some meters around the edge so as to retain site privacy or are there rules about clearing the whole let etc?

Thanks all for your insight!


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## Gaz (25 Jan 2008)

You can thin at any time, but normally is advised just before the trees are closing canopy, i.e. 15-20 years for Spruce depending on yield class. Thinning at this stage provides timber for pulp and stake markets to name but a few. As Woodsman suggested the best approach is to to selectively thin out woodland and gradually introduce broadleaves if that is your goal.

Yes, you are allowed to retain a border treeline. This is advisable particularly for broadleaf trees where they provide partial screenage of felled area. However consideration should be given to the possible removal of conifer trees on peripheral boundaries, as they are prone to windblow once canopy is opened.

But as already recommended, seek professional advice before considering any of the above.


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Jan 2008)

> Forestry devalues land, so you should not really be looking at it as an investment, especially if you know nothing about it.



Let me clarify what I meant by this. 

As Woodsman says:



> Unplanted land is usually worth more than planted land because of the generous grants and premiums available, especially to farmers.



So it's not a good idea to buy planted land. That does not imply that it is a bad investment to buy land and plant it. Unplanted land + grants might be a good investment. 

I don't think that you should get involved with forestry generally, or this site in particular, as an investment if you know very little about it. 

Forestry as an investment is discussed in this  thread although it mainly refers to the forestry funds. 

I have set out my views in The Guide and I don't think they have changed much since then. But Woodsman, I would welcome further discussion of the subject:


> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*FORESTRY*[/FONT]
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Forestry          is an attractive investment to many people. There are generous grants          available to plant trees commercially. The profits from forestry are tax          free. The BIG disadvantage is that forestry is a very long term investment          and the returns are just so uncertain. The best way to invest is through          a forestry fund , such as the Seventh Irish Forestry Fund. This is like          a unit linked fund in that you can invest as little as £500 in such          a fund. In 30 years time, when the forest matures, you will get your money          and profits back.[/FONT]
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The problem          is that most of us don't have a 30 year horizon for investing. If you          want your money in 10 years time, there is very little you can do about          it. The promoters will try to find a buyer for you, but you have no way          of knowing whether or not there will be a demand for your shares.[/FONT]
> ...


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## PGD1 (25 Jan 2008)

Thanks all.

To clarify, I have no interest in any investment... I just want to get my hands on some land. In this case the land is suitable for a number of reasons... it just happens to also have some 16yo Spruce on it.

So I'm just trying to figure out what I have to do to maintain it, how much that will cost, and how much income I can get..... with the overriding goal being to convert it away from Spruce to native woodland as quickly as possible.

It seems to me that I can get 3 thinnings from it and perhaps make some money in the process which will cover the cost (maybe) of planting some natives... and the the final felling will give another boost to finish the job off.

Hopefully then I can get out of the grant/replanting obligations. I would have no intentions of selling it at any stage.


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## mercman (25 Jan 2008)

This is not as easy as you think. Think about Insurance Costs, others using it as a Dumping Ground, Fertilising in the case of irregular growth. Also if you don't look after it, you as the owner if damaged could be liable for  a refund of the premiums and the original planting grant. 

Try contacting Woodland in Galway 091-562016 who are experts and the longest in the business, or send me a message if you are somewhere else in the country.


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## PGD1 (25 Jan 2008)

I have been quoted insurance costs of max €300/year as a rough guide. That's OK.

Dumping.... well people can dump anywhere I'll have to take a chance they do it somewhere else!!!

Fertilising.... I was wondering about that... I was hoping that the 16yo Spruce would not need anything... and anything I planted after thinning wouldn't get fertiliser and that wouldn't matter as I would not be obliged to replant after felling. More research needed here!


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## PaulPower (7 Jul 2008)

My dad owns a 40 year old sitka spruce forest of about 20 acres and it needs to be harvested - what is the best way of going about selling it to a harvester or maybe coillte? Its located in north Mayo.
I wonder what he can expect to sell it for? Its something that he has sat on for some time now but he really needs to harvest it soon - it was never thinned so the tree quality might be poor.


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## JohnJoe (14 Jul 2008)

PaulPower said:


> My dad owns a 40 year old sitka spruce forest of about 20 acres and it needs to be harvested - what is the best way of going about selling it to a harvester or maybe coillte? Its located in north Mayo.
> I wonder what he can expect to sell it for? Its something that he has sat on for some time now but he really needs to harvest it soon - it was never thinned so the tree quality might be poor.


 
Get in contact with your local Teagasc forestry officer and they will advise you what to do. I believe there are approx 6 harverters in business in the North Mayo area - maybe collite can get a contact to these people - is profit from forestry not tax free?


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## ubiquitous (14 Jul 2008)

JohnJoe said:


> Get in contact with your local Teagasc forestry officer and they will advise you what to do. I believe there are approx 6 harverters in business in the North Mayo area - maybe collite can get a contact to these people - is profit from forestry not tax free?



Why do people on AAM always assume that Coillte are the only forestry company in the country. They are to forestry what eircom is to telecoms. Shop around...


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## PaulPower (14 Jul 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Why do people on AAM always assume that Coillte are the only forestry company in the country. They are to forestry what eircom is to telecoms. Shop around...


 
Forestry is very hard to get information on so I don't know where to look for more information on selling forestry - I would shop around if I could - where can I get this information?


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