# Hired 3y ago as sen mgr in large co. Demotion & constructive dismissal?



## Chiggles (10 Dec 2010)

I was hired as a senior manager in a large company 3 years ago and was recently promoted.  

Shortly after being promoted things started to fall apart in the Irish economy. The powers that be decided that a re structure was needed. I ended up with a new supervisor from overseas who decided that he wanted to appoint his own staff.

This in itself was not a major issue as my salary and benefits were not being touched. However, the way he went about this was. 

Without talking to me first, he issued an organisation wide memo from head office stating that Mr X (who formerly reported to me) was now the 'senior manager' and that I had been demoted 2 grades (below the level I was initially appointed at). This is despite me repeatedly receiving the top possible rating on the company performance evaluation system, positive feedback from my team, other managers and customers. The first I heard of my replacement was a phone call from a colleague advising me to check my emails. Since the mail went out I have been the topic of discussion and ridicule.

The nature of the demotion, the breach of initial appointment conditions and potential long term reputation and career damage has made staying with the company impossible. 

Unfortunately, with the state of the economy I dont think finding a similar job at a similar salary level is possible. I plan on leaving as soon as possible but feel I should not be out of pocket because of it.

Would this win a constructive dismissal case?


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## Deiseblue (10 Dec 2010)

I would suggest that you contact a solicitor conversant with employment legislation .

Have you recourse to a Union ?


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## Chiggles (10 Dec 2010)

Thanks Deise

not a unionised environment. I plan on talking to a solicitor but was hoping to get some general advice / opinions.


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## rescue16 (11 Dec 2010)

Have you a signed contract which states the position you were promoted too if you do, Then they are breaking that contract but and i say but !! If you leave the company there is no case there i would go to a solictor with any written documents you have and proof of your contract if you have one if you dont you have no hope.


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## Sue Ellen (11 Dec 2010)

Hi,

Sorry to hear about this dreadful treatment that you are receiving from your employers.

In these type of situations it can be hard to keep a clear head but one thought that occurs straight away is to make sure you keep both soft and hard copies of any of the e-mails that were sent.  Have heard of these disappearing mysteriously in cases like this in the past.

You may get some advice from previous threads on AAM on 

These people might give some advice [broken link removed]

In the meantime a read of your rights on Citizens Information might help.

A read through  people's posts might give some advice also or their website http://www.hr-sos.ie/   I don't know anything about this company so can't make any recommendation other than to say a read of their site might help.

Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction.

S.E.


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## Complainer (11 Dec 2010)

Sounds like very poor treatment, but there may be a better alternative to a legal battle. There might be an opportunity for you to negotiate an exit package. Would you prefer to fight a long drawn out legal battle, or to walk away with a good reference and a tidy package in your pocket.

If this is of interest, work out who is the best person to approach to make this happen.


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## Chiggles (12 Dec 2010)

Thanks for all the helpful advice. 

Can anyone recommend a good employment legislation solicitor?


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## becky (13 Dec 2010)

We use to use Hanby wallace for our HR cases.


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## PyritePete (13 Dec 2010)

William Fry's Dublin. Solicitor price was about 300 EUR per hour, 3 years ago.


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## Lomond (13 Dec 2010)

Before going down the constructive dismissal route its really important that you have availed of the company's grievance procedure.... in effect let them know there is an issue and give them the opportunity to justify, explain or make amends. I've read a few consructive dismissal claims which have failed for this reason, the tribunal dont like situations where an employee has walked out and not made use of the grievance procedure (if there is one in place).  In constructive dismisal the burden of proof is on you to substantiate the claim - much higher bar then would ordinary be found in unfair dismissal claims.


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## greenfield (13 Dec 2010)

+ 1 for lomonds advice - if you make no effort to put your employer on notice of your grievance, and give them an opportunity to address same, it could be very hard to win a constructive dismissal case.


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## Nutso (13 Dec 2010)

I would really recommend Craig at www.hr-sos.ie (no affiliation, just a happy customer).  If you have a chat with him, he will go through everything with you and he will let you know if he can help you.  I think he is a better bet than a solicitor as he specialises in HR issues and he doesn't charge over the top for his services.

Nutso


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## Purple (22 Dec 2010)

PyritePete said:


> William Fry's Dublin. Solicitor price was about 300 EUR per hour, 3 years ago.



I have found that with large firms you end up getting a very junior solicitor dealing with your case and someone who knows what they are doing will only get involved when things start to go wrong. By that point they will have clocked up lots of hours to charge you.


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## PyritePete (22 Dec 2010)

not my experience at all I have to say. Lady I was dealing with was prompt, professsional etc. Kept in regular contact with me by phone and mostly email.

It was money well spent. This lady specialised in employment law.


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## onekeano (22 Dec 2010)

very sorry to hear about this situation - it's very difficult to get caught up in this. I have some experience from a few perspectives on this (not as a solicitor).

Lomonds advice is spot on.  I would strongly advise that any meetings you have with mgt. you should make contemporaneous notes - you might need them later. Also any mails that are relative to the subject you should keep (maybe mail them to your personal GMAIL account or the like). Photocopy any hard copies of org charts or other memos for your own file and make sure you print off review ratings in case they disappear.

Ask for a meeting with HR and your manager - you should be allowed to bring a "friend" this might be a colleague but it could be your partner, a solicitor or anybody. You should have a list of questions prepared ie. has my position been changed? why was this done? how come I wasn't consulted? what are the plans for my career etc etc? Your "friend" should not get involved in the questioning here but should write down EVERYTHING that is said - I mean EVERYTHING. You would be surprised how this would focus their minds if you plan this properly and they may come to the conclusion that a) they have overstepped the mark and are seriously exposed or b) ask if you would be interested in an offer.

I'm a manager myself in a large multinational (obviously the same fate awaits us all at some stage ;-) ) so I does empathise with you. However, if this gets serious and they go for their legal advice I can tell you their legal guys will tell them to settle rather than go to court so they can either backtrack or look for a financial settlement. My experience with Bruce Hanby Wallace is that this would be their advice to the employer in this kind of situation.

I hope it works out for you, please keep us posted.

Roy


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## onq (31 Dec 2010)

Lots of good advice above, to which I'll add the following comments; -

Do not rush into this - get competent professional advice - employment law can be a minefield.
Be seen to be reasonable in your approach at all times - you do not want to give the impression of being vengeful.
Become aware of the terms of your contract - even if you're not a solicitor, get a copy because your solicitor will need it.

Establish what human resources procedures are in place to facilitate annual staff review meetings, return to work meetings etc and obtain copies of any and all that pertain to you.
Obtain copies of any and all ratings and rewards and seek minutes of the meetings of the directors where the decision was taken to appoint this supervisor. Try to discover the chain of contact - it sounds as though this genius didn't land out of the blue.

Typically the promises made by such creatures or the brief they accept will be to reduce costs in a recession.
Find out if the management intends to do this by creating conditions that amount to constructive dismissal and establish a forum to inform workers of their rights, because after he deals with you, he may move on to them.

Just on an instinct, and following on from cost-reduction measures.

Find out about possible outsourcing of core areas of the company's business and whether this genius has prompted this.
This may involve protection afforded by TUPE but this can be got around.

Finally find out about this guy's past form from companies he worked for previously.
That way you may develop an idea of what to expect.

If he's from Britain he will be well-versed in TUPE regulations and they are more weighted towards the employee over there.

Also it may be useful for you to get a wider understanding of the law in this matter - even if its just to put your solicitor under pressure.

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]

Also be aware of the offence of victimisation - you may win a case on this which could result in a remedy of being reinstated with full benefits.

Follow on problems can occur with "constructive dismissal" type behaviour occurring effectively amounting to victimisation.
Unless this genius has the full backing of management for what he's doing you may find out that exposing him loses him support.
If it can be shown that he is acting - or has a history of acting unfairly towards employed - valued employees in your case - it might be him who ends up leaving.

ONQ.

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                    as a defence or support - in and of      itself  -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and business professionals/consultants should be asked to advise in                                    Real Life with rights to inspect and     issue         reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## onq (31 Dec 2010)

Purple said:


> I have found that with large firms you end up getting a very junior solicitor dealing with your case and someone who knows what they are doing will only get involved when things start to go wrong. By that point they will have clocked up lots of hours to charge you.



At a junior solicitors rates however.



But I take your point about dealing with juniors who can lead you towards disaster.

ONQ.


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## ajapale (31 Dec 2010)

Chiggles said:


> Would this win a constructive dismissal case?



As you embark on this course of action you should consider "What would be the best possible outcome?" and "What would be the worst possible outcome?".

I have come across cases where the constructive dismassal case was won and the remedy was simply reinstatement or a dissapointingly small monetary sum.


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## onq (31 Dec 2010)

That very point was the reason I suggested broadening the knowledge base for the OP.

If there is a wider downsourcing agenda that the directors support the OP may decide his career interests may be better served elsewhere, for example seeking a redundancy payment with compensation and either re-training or taking a career break with the proceeds.

The latter could include a self-improvement/CPD course to improve his skillset and or open more opportunities for employment.

Otherwise if he elects to stay with the company he may be able to negotiate a more secure appointment, perhaps taking over this genius supervisor's job and better securing his income an career into the future.

Options.

ONQ.


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## Purple (31 Dec 2010)

onq said:


> At a junior solicitors rates however.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Junior solicitor rates in large firms are still significant. It's quite possible to have some numb-skull who knows less than their client clock up ten thousand euro in hours with nothing to show for it. I know all about it, I have a family member who was part of a larger group seeking a basic clarification of their employment position and a large Dublin firm that was advising them was utterly useless. They admitted they made a mess of it but still wanted €18’000 odd of a few hours’ worth of bad advice.  Only when they were threatened with a report to the law society did they suddenly drop their bill to €4’500.


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## Chiggles (3 Jan 2011)

Thanks Roy, ONQ and others.

All good advice. I have initiated a grevience procedure and have still not had any direct contact from the supervisor involved. However, they did reinstate my initial contract title (back up 1 grade) stating that it was an error / oversight on their part. 

This is part of a downsizing effort as work has already been moved overseas & I wasnt the only one impacted. Its also a blatent case of nepotism i.e. appointment of a friend / colleague without any formal interview process etc. The funny thing is that the new supervisor was also appointed in a similar manner so will have the backing of the regional CEO. I have since found out that this type of thing has happened in this org a number of times over the past 10 years and not just from this individual. Some of the longer term employees were not surprised at all by this behaviour from senior management.

I have all my doccumentation in order and have spoken to a solicitor who thinks it would be a good case but has asked me to think about how far I'm prepared to go and what is the end goal. Its a small industry and the payoff / satisfaction might not be worth the potential reputation damage as a 'trouble maker'. The flip side is that it as it is a small industry I certainly dont want the reputation of a pushover or having the reputation of being demoted from a position that I was recently promoted to (implying to people that didnt know the situation that there were performance issues).

As I stated in my opening post, I'm not with the company all that long, so it might be best to sit it out, wait for someting else to materialise elsewhere and then cut my losses. On a positive note I'm glad I found out their cultural / values relatively early.


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## Complainer (3 Jan 2011)

Chiggles said:


> so it might be best to sit it out, wait for someting else to materialise elsewhere and then cut my losses.


Or maybe, after something else comes along, negotiate your exit with a package.


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