# School doors locked



## belinda45 (11 Dec 2009)

Im probably not on the proper page here but I was horrified this morning to find that all doors bar one in my childs school locked just after 9.30am. I left her to her classroom when she found the door to her corridor locked. I asked the Head why was the door locked and she told me she locks all doors bar one every morning. I understand how they wouldnt want any person just walking into the school but in the event of a fire and if there was thick smoke as can be the case depending on what is on fire there is no way 240 under 12's and their teachers would get out of the doors that the Head told me could be opened by turning the fixed mechanism on the inside of the door. Is this the case with all National Schools in Ireland? By the way my daughter is in 2nd class and has never done a fire drill yet..


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## Bluebells (11 Dec 2009)

You'd be even more horrified if one of the kids just walked out of the school, or if somebody just walked in. 

Are the children left unsupervised in locked rooms?


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## onq (11 Dec 2009)

belinda45 said:


> Im probably not on the proper page here but I was horrified this morning to find that all doors bar one in my childs school locked just after 9.30am. I left her to her classroom when she found the door to her corridor locked. I asked the Head why was the door locked and she told me she locks all doors bar one every morning. I understand how they wouldnt want any person just walking into the school but in the event of a fire and if there was thick smoke as can be the case depending on what is on fire there is no way 240 under 12's and their teachers would get out of the doors that the Head told me could be opened by turning the fixed mechanism on the inside of the door. Is this the case with all National Schools in Ireland? By the way my daughter is in 2nd class and has never done a fire drill yet..



There is always a balance to be struck between fire safety and security.

If the head is describing tumbler locking mechanisms these may be considered acceptable in certain circumstances as they override the key activated locks - you just twist the tumbler and the door opens.
If these are some other mechanism without tumblers [i.e. there is no keyless opening] I would advise reporting the matter to the local Fire Station immediately as the children may well be at serious risk.
In addition, the building [if built within the last 18 years or so] may not be in compliance with its Fire Cert if it has locks fitted to doors on escape routes, which cannot be opened without a key from the room side.
Finally if the children are left unsupervised - i.e. alone in the room - and cannot themselves open the doors regardless of whether there are tumblers fitted or not, they would appear to be at serious risk if a fire emergency occurred.

But stand back from this yourself and call in the professionals/statutory fire officer to deal with it - sort of like having Gardaí for buildings 

HTH

ONQ.

[broken link removed]


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## brigade (11 Dec 2009)

I agree with ONQ. Contact fire prevention in your local authority.


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## belinda45 (11 Dec 2009)

I think i may have worded this post wrongly. I never for a moment suggested that the childrens classroom doors were locked. The external doors leading into the link corridors to classrooms are locked every day except for one. And yes while I would also be horrified if some stranger just walked into the school, and I know there is a balance between safety and security, just to think of approx 240 children running amok (even if they had been trained to move quietly and quickly in single file, I would seriously doubt a large number of adults overcome by smoke would do any such thing never mind children) in panic if a fire started worries me. I did today get in touch with the Chief Fire Officer in our area and he told me that any door without a push down bar should not be locked. Ill leave them to take care of the Safety aspect of this whole thing and leave the Security to the professionals also!!!! Ta very much all


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## tommysmith (11 Dec 2009)

Hi.
Is this a primary school?
The board of management are responsible for all safety issues,(whether they like it or not).
They must have fire drills at least 2 times per year,(1981 fire regulations).
It is recommended they run a drill every term.

Ask to see the safety statement for the school.
What does it say about fire safety.
Write to the board of management and express your concerns.
The principal may be the secetary of the board, and may even get an allowance for this.

The health and safety authority are unlikely to be concerned, however the school is a workplace for some eg the other teachers and need to ensure a safe workplace.

Fire doors are often locked ibn schools, the board of management never seem to relaise if there is a fire they are responsible as employers for it. The board while just volunteers have a big responsiblities.

I refused to go on the board of my school as they thought i would be useful.

Think of the stardust , lots died there!
look at toyshops this xmas, many will have blocked fire doors, blocked with deliveries of toys. No one cares about it.

You are 100% correct to be concerned.


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## belinda45 (11 Dec 2009)

hi tommysmith
thank you very much for that post it was very informative. Sometimes while this is a brilliant way to get some answers to questions one would feel that people may pick up what you try to express in a different way. One thread said immediately that I would be more horrified if some stranger walked into the school or some child walked out of the school. I would be equally horrified at that but neither one is more important than the other. People who undertake Health and Safety training or Occupational First Aid are shown the horrors of fires starting and how disorientating thick smoke is and most schools have a large amount of combustibles at all times. Do you know its a hard one to call but Board of Management members feel they are privilaged to be on these Boards but I dont think in a lifetime I would like to have that responsibility on my shoulders. Thanks again


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## onq (12 Dec 2009)

belinda45 said:


> I think i may have worded this post wrongly. I never for a moment suggested that the childrens classroom doors were locked. <snip>



From the first line of the post with which you started this thread.

_"Im probably not on the proper page here but I was horrified this morning to find that all doors bar one in my childs school locked just after 9.30am."_

That seemed very clear-cut to me at the time.

FWIW

ONQ.


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## Bluebells (12 Dec 2009)

tommysmith said:


> Hi.
> Is this a primary school?
> The board of management are responsible for all safety issues,(whether they like it or not).
> They must have fire drills at least 2 times per year,(1981 fire regulations).
> ...



As matter of interest, why _did_ you refuse and why did they think you would be useful ?


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## tommysmith (12 Dec 2009)

I work in health and safety, and they though I would be useful. I have given advice where I saw problems. 
I refused in a nice way, one reason was when I heard the priest told them they had no responsiblities. I would of course be willing to offer them help free of charge, but at present have concerns with the responsiblities.

I cant remember the case but the Minister ( possibly Ms Hannifin) & court judgement  confirmed where the responsiblities where. 

I really think the members of BOM need protection, they are great to do the work. They are put into a difficult situation by the State.

I might be wrong in my understanding, but that is how_ I see it. Having said that it is lovely to be asked_


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## Complainer (13 Dec 2009)

I've seen some organisations using mag-locks to hold open fire doors. These locks release automatically when the fire alarm goes off.

Could they have something like these in place?


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## tommysmith (13 Dec 2009)

Those mag locks are sometimes used in hotels on internals doors etc, but for the school they may not be suitable. Inside doors would be ok, I think they need the standard type emergency doors, cant be opened from the outside, but easily opened from the inside. Besause it is a school, and security is also an issue an alarm can be installed to operate when the doors are opened.

It really is important doors can be easily opened. last year I remember hearing on the news a young person died while trying to get out of a school, I think he was locked in by mistake and tried to get home by going out a window, and unfortunately died. I dont have the details of the death here but it could have been avoidable.

The main problem i guess it the school does not have money for this work.  Many schools are finding it tough at present.


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