# How much monthly income do I need if I retire now?



## DaveD (21 Feb 2019)

I know its a very general question but on average:
"How much monthly income do I need if I retire now?"

Based on the following:

2 adults age 55 and 50
Living in Dublin
No mortgage
Savings of €100k
3 children (2 in 3rd level, 1 in 2nd level)

I'd like to live "comfortably", a few trips abroad each year (Nothing too fancy) and would need to run a car (maybe 2 for a while)

I know I to sit down and work out current expenses for a best guess but  whats the easy answer? Would €3000 per month after tax cover it?


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## Cervelo (21 Feb 2019)

Some people could do it on less, some would need more It all depends on what your basic cost of living is and what type of holidays your thinking of
Is a 100k all you have ?? if so I'd think its not a runner. Any other savings/pensions or income sources ??


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## huskerdu (21 Feb 2019)

As well as your current expenses, don't forget to add in an appropriate amount to replace and repair cars and do maintanance on your house for the next 37 years.  ( Boiler service and replacement, white goods, furniture, carpets and flooring, painting).


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## TrundleAlong (21 Feb 2019)

Just myself and my wife. No debts. We reckon we get by on €25k a year. Lots of good holidays included in that. Eat well etc. Two cars.

I do have a bigger income and about €600k in savings/investments but I never seem to touch these. However last year we had a couple of family weddings, one overseas, so we dipped in to the funds for those. It was nice to have it there. But the money spent last year will come back over the next few years.


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## RedOnion (21 Feb 2019)

DaveD said:


> No mortgage
> Savings of €100k
> 3 children (2 in 3rd level, 1 in 2nd level)


If you're mortgage free, and enough funds to see the kids through college, there's no reason you can't live comfortably on 3k per month. Lots of people do that - it's all about balancing lifestyle expectations. I'd suggest reducing to 1 car though. 
But what are you going to do with your time? There's a danger with so much free time that you pick up expensive hobbies.


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## Saavy99 (21 Feb 2019)

TrundleAlong said:


> I do have a bigger income and about €600k in savings/investments but I never seem to touch these. However last year we had a couple of family weddings, one overseas, so we dipped in to the funds for those. It was nice to have it there. But the money spent last year will come back over the next few years.



Why do you want it to come back?  You can't take it with you, might as well enjoy it.


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## Steven Barrett (21 Feb 2019)

DaveD said:


> I know its a very general question but on average:
> "How much monthly income do I need if I retire now?"
> 
> Based on the following:
> ...



€36,000/€100,000 = 2.7 years


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## RedOnion (21 Feb 2019)

I'm assuming OP is thinking of accessing pension early, rather than trying to survive off 100k savings.


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## Gordon Gekko (21 Feb 2019)

I always think that €5,000 a month / €60,000 a year gross is pretty good once you’ve no debt or accommodation costs.

Probably nets out at €3,500 odd per month.


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## Palerider (21 Feb 2019)

I’m not far off your situation, your projections work, we kept both our cars, it is very doable especially with reserves.

Currently in the Canaries, as I said we are almost the same, go for it with confidence


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## Sarenco (21 Feb 2019)

€3 a month (€36k per annum) is an interesting figure.

It roughly equates to average earnings (per the CSO) and the tax-free threshold for a married couple, once one spouse hits 65.  Much beyond that and you're getting into diminishing returns.

With no mortgage payments or rent to worry about, I suspect the vast majority of couples could live very comfortably on €3k (net) a month.


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## Steven Barrett (22 Feb 2019)

Sarenco said:


> €3 a month (€36k per annum) is an interesting figure.
> 
> It roughly equates to average earnings (per the CSO) and the tax-free threshold for a married couple, once one spouse hits 65.  Much beyond that and you're getting into diminishing returns.
> 
> *With no mortgage payments or rent to worry about, I suspect the vast majority of couples could live very comfortably on €3k (net) a month.*



You most certainly could. But do you want to? Are there other things that you want to do in life that will cost more? The adults in this scenario are pretty young still, so you'd need to plan for c. 40 years income. 

And then there's the kids. All still in education and one still in school. They have to be funded. And we seem to be regressing when it comes to adult children becoming financially independent of their parents. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## DaveD (22 Feb 2019)

Thanks for all the replies, I'll add a little more info to clarify:

I'm actually looking 6 years into the future here and considering early "retirement", which in reality means leaving my current job and doing something different. Hopefully this will bring in some income but I've no idea how that will work out so I'm basing my rough calculations on known income streams. Time slips by quickly so 6 years is not that far away. My €3000 per month figure is based on current expenses (ex mortgage and savings), with 2 secondary school children and 1 primary, who will then be 2 college and 1 secondary (non fee paying). The monthly figure is averaged over the year and includes annual costs such as car/house insurance, modest holiday etc.

I have the option to leave my current employment and take a pension payment then or defer it for a number of years. My preferred option is to defer pension payments so that whatever income I might earn from my new career is not all taxed at the higher rate. At any stage I can opt to start taking pension payments in case new career income is insufficient. If I don't earn anything after retirement and defer pension payments our monthly income would be €2250. Pension payments would be €2275 if taken immediately but increasing the longer I defer. I'd also forgotten about an investment plan due to mature in 6 years with a guestimate of €25k. 

So, some revised figures:

2 adults age 55 and 50
Living in Dublin
No mortgage
Savings of €125k
3 children (2 in 3rd level, 1 in 2nd level)
Monthly income €4500 (me (€2275, wife €825, other €1400, plan to save €1500 per month) hence €3000.
Savings after another 5 years €215k total.

We'll then be 60 and 55, and 1 specific income stream will stop, reducing monthly income to €3100, hence the plan to allow for this by saving €1500 per month all along. So, in 10 years time we will need to live on the original €3000 per month without any option to significantly increase savings, but should already have €215k. I'm not entitled to the State pension at 65, but my wife will be, but that will just replace her current salary. So, we'll be a little old couple with an income of €3000 per month, savings of €215k, and 3 adult children (1 still in college). I don't to ever be dependant on my children 

Or that's the plan!


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## mtk (22 Feb 2019)

TBH 3k seems kind of low to me. 

Have you included car replacement cost (2k?) a year perhaps, service, nct, tax,  tv licence, property tax,  mobiles  etc., servicing of bolier if applicable, costs at college ( travel, lunches, books, student contribution(3k) , socialising, sports , driving lessons etc.), bin costs, replacing windows, bathrooms or floors or other fixes/repairs over long term and finally ever more expensive health insurance and unreimbursed health expenses ?

Being pretty careful but not stingy we come in around 4k, no mortgage or debt, no smoking & little alcohol. ( 2 A plus 1 )


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## Leper (22 Feb 2019)

My tuppenceworth - You have one child in 2nd Level and two in 3rd Level. Obviously, they are not working in their true careers yet. Your and theirs near future is unpredictable and could change from good to bad within hours (don't underestimate; perhaps I'm a prophet of doom?). Don't concede any home goals. 

You've saved €125K. This doesn't mean you're financially independent and will yield €20K to you yearly for  just over 6 years only if you wish. A problem with any one of your offspring could whittle this amount away pretty fast - I'm only putting you on alert and nearly sorry I'm posting.

You're on hold for six years more - Good; this gives you time to think and will whittle away 6 years of some concern.

After Retirement:- Few trips abroad - excellent idea (we do it) - Spend extended time in the south of Spain for €650 per month rental in a good location and live cheaper while renewing your body's well being with some winter sunshine. Gets us out walking, thinking, reading, cycling, exploring and generally good every way in our silver years.


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## michaelm (22 Feb 2019)

€3k/month sounds decent to me for 2 adults with no bills.  Your two older should either be gone or contributing.  I'm mulling something similar, albeit further out, taking early retirement and using my lump sum to supplement my supplemental pension until the state pension kicks in.


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## elacsaplau (22 Feb 2019)

mtk said:


> TBH 3k seems kind of low to me.



Dear Mtk,

I'm still mightily appreciative of your help yesterday so I'll go easy on ya!

Elac's specific theory of relativity

Isn't the truth that once you go beyond a certain level of income, what one needs is in part a function of what you've been used to? Say, for example, that you were a successful medic or _solicitor_, then compared with what you have been earning €3k per month might seem very small indeed. OTOH, for a couple who have been earning a combined gross income of, say, €60k p.a. (whilst paying off a mortgage and raising kids), wouldn't a debt/child free €3k net a month feel like the good times were about to roll?




Oh, personally, I'd find €4k a month a little light


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## Palerider (22 Feb 2019)

The planning is the critical piece, my early retirement came a little sooner than expected but we were over ten years with it in the pipeline and there was University costs in there as well.

The key is to plan and continue to make steps towards your goal.


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## WhiteCoat (22 Feb 2019)

elacsaplau said:


> Elac's specific theory of relativity



This is true. If you can somehow combine your theory with Micawber's observations regarding income levels, then you may, indeed, be on to something!


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Feb 2019)

Let's build the budget from the ground up.

The State Non-contributory pension for a couple is €20k
Let's assume this is a fair assessment of the "safety net" costs of living.  So let's add on for those little "luxuries" which presumably this is not meant to pay for.
(1)  2 cars.  Easily the most expensive "luxury" for OP.  Fuel, maintenance, tax, insurance, depreciation.  Again we have official guidance.  Once upon a time the duke enjoyed an all expenses paid company car.  The BIK was 30% of market value and I thought it was worth it so I put the cost/value of 2 cars at about €20k.
(2)  2 trips a year  €5k
(3)  Reasonably fancy meal for 2 once a week €5k
(4)  VHI €4k
(5)  Day to day living expenses a tad higher (shop for clothes in M&S etc.) than what informed the basic safety net €3k
(6)  Cigies (optional)  €5k
(7)  Alcohol (optional)  €3k
(8)  SKY sports (not optional) €1k
(9)  Pressies for the kids (grand kids) €1k
(10)  Golf or other hobby €6k
Total: *€73k p.a. or c. €6,000 per month
*
_* error spotted by eagle eye elac corrected_


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## elacsaplau (23 Feb 2019)

Nice one, WhiteCoat, I'm on it.

Presumably, the Duke is being, atypically, provocative? It is just a bit disappointing that his counting skills are letting him down!  [I guess some people just find sums hard ]

[At least, the Duke invariably has the good grace to acknowledge the occasional error......unlike some I could mention who surreptitiously correct errors leaving my apparent subsequent correction (in a later post) swinging to all put the most attentive of observers. Cryptic or what?!]


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## Duke of Marmalade (23 Feb 2019)

elacsaplau said:


> Nice one, WhiteCoat, I'm on it.
> 
> Presumably, the Duke is being, atypically, provocative? It is just a bit disappointing that his counting skills are letting him down!  [I guess some people just find sums hard ]
> 
> [At least, the Duke invariably has the good grace to acknowledge the occasional error......unlike some I could mention who surreptitiously correct errors leaving my apparent subsequent correction (in a later post) swinging to all put the most attentive of observers. Cryptic or what?!]


Don't get this!

Ahhh!  get it now


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## RETIRED2017 (23 Feb 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Don't get this!


I know sure the Duke is one of a kind,


Duke of Marmalade said:


> Don't get this!


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## elacsaplau (23 Feb 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _* error spotted by eagle eye elac corrected_


*
*
If only others were so gracious about my fastidiousness....


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## Cervelo (24 Feb 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Let's build the budget from the ground up.



I think for me your budget is on the high side, I appreciate everybody's spending and budgeting is going to be slightly different but I still think €73k pa is excessive and I presume that's a net figure 
I'm 52 now and have been retired now for 8 years, there's just the two of us and a cat and have a basic living budget of about €20K p.a which includes a lot of your "luxuries" 
Grocery shopping €4000, Gas €1100, Elec €800, BB €420, Waste €170, Sky+ Tv licence €600, Mobile x2 €360, House expenditure including LPT and insurance €1500
Medical insurance x 2 €2380, Medical other €600, Cars x 2 (tax, insurance, servicing) €2000, Petrol €1000, Social spending (meals out takeaways etc etc) €2800, Personal spending €2500

What's not included in above 20K budget is large or optional "luxury" expenditure like replacing a car, major repairs to the house, new bicycles for me and holidays for one or both of us etc etc
This extra spending is and imo should be funded from your "retirement fund or emergency fund" and is not really factored in to the yearly budget per se but rather the long term budget
A perfect example of this is my car which is a 131, I wont start thinking about changing it for at least five years and then I'll review the finances overall, make a few changes if needed and buy
I don't factor in depreciation because I don't think of it as an expense per se but rather as a once off purchase that serves a useful and valuable function, like buying a television

For us a annual budget of about €35k net is ample for our needs, some years its going to be more than enough to cover all our expenditure and other years its not which is when the overall fund kicks in


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## Duke of Marmalade (24 Feb 2019)

Cervelo said:


> I think for me your budget is on the high side, I appreciate everybody's spending and budgeting is going to be slightly different but I still think €73k pa is excessive and I presume that's a net figure.


Fascinating post _Cervelo_.  I was not, as suggested elsewhere, being deliberately provocative in my post.  I would say that many of the items in that post are not a million miles away from our personal circumstance so I was interested to do comparisons.
First of all myself and the Duchess are in our retirement and are empty nesters.  Also we don't even keep a goldfish never mind a cat or a dog.  Despite my aristocratic lineage I do do not believe we have a particularly extravagant lifestyle.  So these are some comparisons.

Electricity and Gas:  Cerv €1,900,  The Duke €3,000.  I don't go round turning lights off and things like that but I didn't think we were particularly extravagant in energy usage.
BB:  ?
Sky & TV licence (phone and Internet):  Cerv €600  The Duke €1,900
Medical Insurance:  Cerv €2,380  The Duke: €6,000.  okay maybe I could drop down a level but I am by no means near the top level
Car fuel:  (I drive a diesel, the Duchess is petrol) Cerv €1,000 The Duke: €4,500, I reckon that you are only doing 5k kms per car per annum.  Do you need two cars? any cars?
Ciggies and booze:  Cerv €0;  The Duke ahhh! that would be telling
I note that neither you nor your other half have expensive hobbies and you haven't evaluated  costs of holidays.

I take your point on depreciation.  I think keeping a car for 10 years is reasonable for modern cars.  So maybe depreciation is only about €6k p.a. for 2 cars unlike the BIK which would be based on 3 years depreciation and would maybe be €10k p.a.  But it is a "running cost" albeit in cashflow terms it is not incurred every year.

However, I accept your point that with a little bit of belt tightening one could live reasonably comfortably on somewhat less than €6k per month.  It also underpins the point oft made in this parish that our social protection nets are very generous.


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## Monbretia (24 Feb 2019)

This is fascinating, I haven't the exact breakdown figures for my budget although I could easily go find them but know that 15k p.a is my living expenses.  I am on my own and of course the cat!   That is a very basic lifestyle in my opinion and I like the odd coffee/scone out and maybe lunch but would only do dinner out maybe once or twice a year, don't drink/smoke or have any expensive hobbies.    I would manage a holiday every second year maybe, I have a newish car bought 2 yrs ago from savings so it is cheaper to run that the old one in every respect and hopefully it will last for a long time.   I consider I run a very tight ship and only this week switched between utility providers again for best value.  Unfortunately whether there is one or two in the house the broadband costs the same, pretty much ditto with gas/electricity so there are savings for couples obviously.


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## Cervelo (24 Feb 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Electricity and Gas:  Cerv €1,900,  The Duke €3,000.  I don't go round turning lights off and things like that but I didn't think we were particularly extravagant in energy usage.
> BB:  ?
> Sky & TV licence (and Internet):  Cerv €600  The Duke €1,900
> Medical Insurance:  Cerv €2,380  The Duke: €6,000.  okay maybe I could drop down a level but I am by no means near the top level
> ...



Our Gas heating is on 24/7 from November to end of April but is controlled by a nest thermostat set to 18'c our boiler is a 10 year old Viessmann condensing boiler and gas supplied by Airtricity
I'm not sure if that's expensive probably depends more on the size of the property but for us its an acceptable cost 
BB is Fibre Broadband from Vodafone @ 35pm no landline as we use the mobiles 
Medical insurance is Laya Simplicity, which for us at this stage is more than enough cover
Re the cars we don't do big mileage, her car is 12 years old now and only has 51k on it, mine has 60K but I bought it in 2014 with 22kon the clock and have done two big road trips to southern Spain in the last two years
We could for the most part do with one car and it might be something to think about at a later date but again at the moment its an acceptable cost
We don't really drink anymore, maybe a bottle or two of wine when eating out, we get our kicks elsewhere
I don't smoke anymore but herself smokes about 20 a day but this costs her less the €2k per year as we generally buy in cheaper countries like Spain and sneak them back in 

Now for the good bit re the holidays and hobbies
I love to ride (stop it) and it has been an expensive hobby for me but at this stage I have all the equipment and clothes and accessories that I need, so its just servicing parts at the moment most of which I can install or repair myself, probably costs me 500 to 1K a year in parts but if I was to buy two new bikes today and kit them out the way I like and desire there would be little change from 15K might even be more
Travel/holidays is something the two of us love to do and at the moment we're on a USA road trip buzz which costs about €8 to10k per 21/25 day trip, we fly economy and don't stay in expensive hotels mainly Days Inns and Comfort Inn type places and drive a medium range car like a Nissan Altima, the basic package costs about €5 to 6K and the rest is food, petrol, attraction fees and a bit of shopping 

I said in my earlier post that we budget around €35k per year which is normal about right but if I'm honest last year we spent close to €50k but we packed a lot in, I spent 4 months riding in Spain, both of us spent nearly 2 months together on road trips in the USA and Europe and a cigarette holiday for herself and then there were a few unforeseen expenses like new tv (€2k), laptop(€1.4k) and I had to get my eyes tested which resulted a couple of pairs of varifocals and some new sports glasses (€2k)

This year to balance out the overspend, I didn't go to Spain to cycle and we're both not planning any big holidays at the moment except for a maybe cigarette run for herself so this should result in this years budget been closer to the €20 to 25K mark


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## Duke of Marmalade (24 Feb 2019)

Some interesting talking points there _Cervelo_.  The Duchess also smokes ciggies and I like a cigar, we try to source all our purchases in France/Italy - my cigars are 3 times dearer in Ireland than in France.  Once I run out of my French supplies I do not on principle buy any in Ireland, just give them up till my next visit.  I didn't think there was anything sneaky in sourcing our tobacco needs in France/Italy.

I happen to be in the market to buy a new TV and was looking at the Power City/DID/Harvey Norman websites.  About €600 would seem to cover my needs (49in Smart TV).  Why did you spend €2k on a TV?  Any tips on what to look out for?

And €2k on sports glasses  I needed a pair of glasses recently.  I used an old prescription from SpecSavers and ordered online from Goggles4U.  €20 including postage and they're absolutely fine


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## Saavy99 (24 Feb 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> And €2k on sports glasses  I needed a pair of glasses recently.  I used an old prescription from SpecSavers and ordered online from Goggles4U.  €20 including postage and they're absolutely fine



Thanks for the tip Duke


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## elacsaplau (25 Feb 2019)

Cervelo said:


> I think for me your budget is on the high side, I appreciate everybody's spending and budgeting is going to be slightly different but I still think €73k p.a. is excessive and I presume that's a net figure



Cervelo - see Elac's Specific theory of relativity. Seriously. If you've been highly paid (or, for example, you were an only child and your folks lived in a _pad_ in D4, or pretty much anywhere in The Naul these days, etc., etc.), chances are that €6k a month net may not seem, at all, excessive. You, for example, retired at 45 (help me out with the sums here, Duke, 52 minus 8) and have €35k a year to spend. I could imagine the math being pretty simple to show that had you had delayed your retirement by X years, you'd be looking at a much more substantial income (i.e. the virtuous triumvirate of more "pension contributions" in one form or another, greater investment time and reduced drawdown time).

[The dynamics of delaying retirement and its consequent _probable_ impact on retirement income is so well appreciated by certain of our US cousins that it's readily understood by its acronym, OMY (One more year). Bottom line, if €35k is your annual budget, then ordinarily it could have been higher, potentially a lot higher, if you had done some/many more OMYs!]

All that said, there is certainly a balance (individual balance?) to be struck between how long to work and how much income you need. Haven't dwelt on this too much personally because, I'm lucky - I love my job and get paid good. I probably could retire now but why should I stop if I love what I do? Could I be one of those weird lads who, when the time arrives to slip away, gives one last pathetic croak of remorse....that I hadn't spent...………….a little more time at de office!!??


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## WhiteCoat (25 Feb 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Once I run out of my French supplies I do not on principle buy any in Ireland, just give them up till my next visit.



Good man - you'll only damage your health when it doesn't cost too much!


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## Cervelo (25 Feb 2019)

Duke,
AFAIK the limit on importing tobacco products from other European countries is around 400 per person, I could be wrong as I haven't checked the limits in a long time
Re the TV, I watch a lot of television and DVDs and have always had a big screen and when my last one broke I decided to take the opportunity to move up to a 65" one and I have a fondness for Sony products
Can't say it is any better then the TV you are looking at but at the time the reviews for my TV were good, it ticked all the boxes in terms of picture quality (UHD) and HDMI ports and functionality and would fit in the space where I have my TV and takes me another step closer to the home cinema that I dream of
Re the glasses, I didn't spend 2k on just sport glasses, the sport element of that 2k was €900 which was 3 pairs of Rudy Project Tralyx with an extra 3 lenses and 2 prescription inserts
Unfortunately I couldn't find an Irish retailer or optician that could do the package as cheap as I was prepared to pay so I used Vision3k in the UK who did my last batch of sport glasses 10+ years ago

elacsaplau,
I never said I have "35k a year to spend" but rather that we try to live within a 35k a year budget, its a choice that we make and for the most part it covers our lifestyle
re the retiring at 45, To put it as simple as I can, I came to a point in my life where I had to make a decision or a choice if you like based on what was going on with me and around me and it came down to this 
Do I want to work until I hit retirement age and hope that a. I get there and b. I get to enjoy it or do I retire now and get to enjoy it now for however long it lasts ??
Well you don't have to guess which way I went


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## elacsaplau (25 Feb 2019)

Cervelo said:


> I never said I have "35k a year to spend" but rather that we try to live within a 35k a year budget, its a choice that we make and for the most part it covers our lifestyle



Absolutely true and I apologise for missing that detail in your post. Of course, my specific theory still holds, as do my OMY observations.



Cervelo said:


> re the retiring at 45, To put it as simple as I can, I came to a point in my life where I had to make a decision or a choice if you like based on what was going on with me and around me and it came down to this





elacsaplau said:


> All that said, there is certainly a balance (individual balance?) to be struck between how long to work and how much income you need.



I think we are saying essentially the same thing. _What divides is not as great as what unites us_ - other than to say that I'm a bit confused about the math in relation to your retirement age...…..my calcs were late night humour!


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## Duke of Marmalade (25 Feb 2019)

Cervelo said:


> Duke,
> AFAIK the limit on importing tobacco products from other European countries is around 400 per person, I could be wrong as I haven't checked the limits in a long time


There are technically no limits provided they are for personal use.  They give an indication that 800 cigs and 200 cigars would be acceptable for personal use.  The implication is that anything more would not be, but this is bluff IMHO.  They do not state categorically that you would be done if in excess of that and it is not against the law.  Nor could it be as we are good EU members aren't we?  

The onus to declare is if they are not for personal use, even if it is only one packet that you have for resale.  If your other half is bringing in 7,000 for next year's personal use, no need to declare, nothing sneaky about it.  Of course if the customs folk see them and query the personal use aspect you might say that you too are a smoker, though that would be sneaky   My guess is they wouldn't bother run the risk of a high profile EU ruling even though you were considerably in excess of that guideline. _ (caveat, this is my read, get legal advice if unsure)_

I think the smaller TV will do me, I have seen a recommendation to get at least 3 HDMI ports.


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## Cervelo (25 Feb 2019)

elacsaplau, much that I'm enjoying my "retirement there is one down side that constantly amazes me and if I'm honest worries me a little is that my brain is not as sharp as it used to be 
this is down to the simple fact I'm not taxing it like I used to, you of course are right 52-8 is not 45  and I deserve to be punished for such a school boy error

Thanks Duke, good to know re the allowances, I did check after I posted this morning on Citizens info and realised I was wrong, not quite sure where I got the 400 from
In the 20 years I've been traveling with Mrs Cervelo we have never been stopped coming back into the country but oddly enough we were stopped in 2017 entering America with too many but he let us go eventually 

Anyhow I think we've taken this thread off topic enough, anybody else want to suggest a retirement budget or more advise for the op ??


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## WhiteCoat (25 Feb 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Of course if the customs folk see them and query the personal use aspect you might......



…...simply show them recent blood test or certified spirometry results (and other first order indicators) and tell them that there's a whole pile more substantial evidence that can be compiled (or, unfortunately but not unsurprisingly, has already been compiled??) attesting to the addiction.

The other point that I'd make here is that there is an inverse correlation between income levels and/or educational attainment with smoking. I leave this last point for the smokers out there to reflect on!

[Apologies for staying off topic above but I have strong feelings on the subject and with reason! Apologies, well qualified apologies, for the tough love also. Sometimes a spade is a spade.]

Back on topic, I'm not sure if there is much point in giving a total budget figure for the reasons outlined by Elacs. However, I do see a lot of merit in doing a spreadsheet where expenditure is analysed so comparisons can be made to highlight variances, etc.


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## The Pool Boy (25 Feb 2019)

Here's a link to a thread on the UK money saving expert forum that asks a very similar question and now has nearly 70 pages of discussion. Different currency and cost of living will affect the calculations but the ideas are still the same.

It's not a bad way to approach saving for retirement if you can get a good handle on your expected costs in retirement. By knowing what you may need income wise, you are better able to target your savings to ensure a pension fund total amount that may be able to generate that income.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=2146737


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## elacsaplau (25 Feb 2019)

WhiteCoat…….I still can't manage to make my specific theory and Micawber rhyme. They're both wolves that work better alone. Obviously, mine is more famous but the other could catch on and believe that its creator will be heard of in years to come. I think you're getting too, well, whitecoaty, about the tests for recognising a smoker  - are there not more immediate visual clues?


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## Gordon Gekko (25 Feb 2019)

Before he gave up, my Dad would bring thousands of cigarettes back; he was stopped once and the customs guy was fine with it.


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## elacsaplau (26 Feb 2019)

Any idea where I can source self-flagellation whips for a good deal? I heard that the Iberian Peninsula is worth checking out which kinda makes sense as they usually have excellent prices and quality on leather. Just wondering if there is a limit in how many I can bring in? Strictly, personal use - absolutely no "funny" stuff, whatsoever.

The discussion on how much cancer sticks (where cancer here _includes_ heart and other diseases) one can bring in is akin to my search for whips. It seems that people have worked out that to damage themselves in one country costs x but that the same damage in Ireland costs 2x. And so there's too much of the "what's the financially savvy way to mess up me health" about all this. As WhiteCoat has inferred, smoking is just a very, very silly practice.


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## michaelm (26 Feb 2019)

elacsaplau said:


> . . smoking is just a very, very silly practice.


But it is cool, and it will keep you thin.


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## michaelm (26 Feb 2019)

My back-of-the-envelope calculation suggest I'd need €3k/month to comfortably retire (based on: 2 people, mortgage & debt free, empty nest).


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## Decision Tree (26 Feb 2019)

Did this calc last year as part of a general review, similar to Michaelm above - 2 people, nest now empty, mortgage paid / no debts, make do with one car.  We estimated 40K p.a. would keep us going, allowing the usual household expenses.


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## Cervelo (26 Feb 2019)

michaelm said:


> My back-of-the-envelope calculation suggest I'd need €3k/month to comfortably retire (based on: 2 people, mortgage & debt free, empty nest).



Funny I always seem to do mine on the back of a cigarette box , I would agree that the €3k (net) should be more than enough for most people but as Duke and Elacsapau (and me somewhat) have pointed out that it really does depend on what you have been used to and what you expect the quality of your lifestyle to be in retirement, kind of a horses for courses situation or elacs theory or relativity
But what I find interesting about these type conversations is the "relative value" we all put on our spending/purchases or more the thought process behind these decisions
where I would spend a lot on eyewear and Duke would not but on the other hand Duke would (I presume) spend more on the purchase of a car then I would now


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## Sarenco (26 Feb 2019)

michaelm said:


> My back-of-the-envelope calculation suggest I'd need €3k/month to comfortably retire (based on: 2 people, mortgage & debt free, empty nest).


That seems reasonable to me.

I guess the next question is what level of retirement savings would you need to be confident that you would be in a position to meet that level of expenditure?

I would have thought that a combined pension pot of around €1million should do it if retiring at 60.


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## David1234 (26 Feb 2019)

3k p/m with a pot of 1 million in today's money retiring at 60 will be our goal. It is a long way away for us but nice to dream.

The above could potentially be subsidised by downsizing, inheritance, state pension or taking in students but none of these feature in my calculations as a whole lot can change between now and when we turn 60.

V rough break down of potential expenses

*Monthly*
Phones €80.00
ESB/GAS €150.00
Car Tax 1 €25.00
Car Tax 2 €15.00
Phonewatch €40.00
Car Insurance 1 €40.00
Car Insurance 2 €40.00
TV €30.00
Broadband €35.00
Bins €40.00
TV Licence €15.00
Petrol & TRAVEL €130.00
Dinners/shopping €300.00
VHI €200.00
Social €750.00
car & house maintenance €300.00
Property Tax  €100.00
life & home insurance €100.00
Hair and Makeup €60.00
Miscellaneous €200.00
Clothes €150.00
Christmas/Hols €200.00
Total €3,000.00

I have read a good bit of "the number" thread on money saving expert and it seems to be heavily weighted towards an extremely frugal lifestyle in retirement. Whilst this may suit some it wouldn't be my cup of tea.


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## fayf (26 Feb 2019)

“have pointed out that it really does depend on what you have been used to and what you expect the quality of your lifestyle to be in retirement, kind of a horses for courses situation or elacs theory or relativity
But what I find interesting about these type conversations is the "relative value" we all put on our spending/purchases or more the thought process behind these decisions”

Its very much an individuals attitude to lifestyle costs. People have way different attitudes. Example: We have 4 mobile phones in our house, and we pay €40
in total per month, i know people who pay €250 for the same 4 phones. Of xourse we bought them and are on pre-pay.


Assuming totally debt free, and kids are gone, and have gone through college.

I have worked out that, all our household bills, excluding food, is about5k per annum, thats all bills coming into the house: ultra basic health insurance, phone, broadband, tv, mobile phones(2) gas, electricity, tv licence, annual LPT , car tax(2)car insurance(2), car annual servicing(2), car NCT(2), Bins, and house insurance. Thats my rough baseline amount, and electricity gas are quite low due to previous investment in the house, insulation, solar panels etc.

So, i came up with a total requirement of about 36k nett income annually, less 5k for all household bills, leaving 15.5k each for our own spending/groceries or €3,000 nett income per month for the both of us. That covers everything,  except, big holidays, car replacement, and big household purchases, or work on the house. 15.5k each gives €300 weekly each to cover groceries and going out, hobbies etc. At this stage all household bills are paid, and groceries should come in around €100 ish per week, so that leaves about €250 each, totally disposable income.

Of course, that implies that we have a good bit of savings, say 150k, as well as a pension pot of close to 1 million between us, which we should have when the time comes.[/QUOTE]


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## Sarenco (26 Feb 2019)

Playing around with some numbers -

Let's take a couple retiring today; both have just turned 60 with a pension pot of €500k each.

They both take €125k as a tax-free lump sum (25% of €500k) and transfer the balance of their respective pension pots to A(M)RFs, from which they will initially draw down 4% (€30k in aggregate) per annum.

Let's assume the A(M)RFs are invested to perfectly keep up with inflation, net of fees, but no more than that.

So €30k per annum drawdown, keeping pace with inflation, plus a €250k lump sum.

Tax/USC/PRSI of ~€3k per annum as things stand (at least until they hit 66). So €9k annual "subsidy" from the €250k to bring them up to €36k per annum.  With (hopefully) the State pension still to come...

Lots of assumptions, obviously, but it seems to add up.


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## elacsaplau (27 Feb 2019)

michaelm said:


> But it is cool, and it will keep you thin.



…...plus, you are doing everything you can to manage the longevity risk (in terms of not using up your complete "retirement pot/savings" whilst still alive)

Serious question and on topic: Is it possible for some kind soul to tabulate the spending breakdowns submitted? I think it will help to illustrate required v. discretionary spending and to highlight variances (i.e. if your payment in respect of a specific item/category is out of line with the normal range, the "overspend" will be highlighted and you will be able to consider whether this makes sense for you [e.g. see Cervelo's example about specs] or whether you are paying over the odds.)


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## Cervelo (27 Feb 2019)

elacsaplau are you forgetting your own theory of relativity 

I'm not sure if tabulating or breaking it down to monthly figures would make my base spending (20K) any clearer to understand, just divide by 12 or 52 and you will get the monthly/weekly figures
In relation to the other spending what would I presume would be discretionary, you would have to be comparing like for like to get a proper feel for what would be normal
My late father once said to me "never put much faith in what people tell you what they paid for something because it will nearly always be cheaper than you've paid"

re my fibre bb last year I got a deal with Vodafone for €10 off €45 for 12 months, today their offering me 12 months €0 for 6 months and €45 for the next 6 bringing my bb down from €35 to €22.50 pm


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## mtk (27 Feb 2019)

David1234 said:


> V rough break down of potential expenses
> 
> *Monthly*
> Phones €80.00
> ...



David Glad you have looked at your expenses in detail which is the most important point in my view.
I previously posted along the lines of" have you included?"  . Most items are now there  so here is only what i  still don't see explicitedly covered.
"Have you included car replacement cost (2k?) a year perhaps,
costs at college ( travel, lunches, books, student contribution(3k) , socialising, sports , driving lessons etc.),
unreimbursed health expenses ?"

Among the numbers _ Dinners/shopping €300.00 _seems v low as someone who actually does all the weekly shopping !


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