# an MBA -  is it worth it ?



## billydoyle (25 Apr 2003)

Hello there,
I am toying with the idea of doing an MBA. Part-time, while I'm (hopefully) working. Open University, in fact.

I reckon I have the energy to do it, no kids yet etc, so it's probably a good time.
Does anyone have views on whether if it really pays off ?

My motivation -
I currently do short-term work in IT. Going grand for now, though I guess the day will come when I have trouble getting work. I will want other options ready. 
And then (being that bit older) I would need to be a manager of some kind, because purely technical permanent jobs have quite a salary ceiling. The more hands-on technical work tends to be done by 'younger folk', more grown up people are the managers.

any thoughts ?


----------



## ClubMan (25 Apr 2003)

Whatever about the pros and cons of doing the MBA ...

*And then (being that bit older) I would need to be a manager of some kind, because purely technical permanent jobs have quite a salary ceiling. The more hands-on technical work tends to be done by 'younger folk', more grown up people are the managers.*

Not necessarily so - as a software engineer (probably effectively "principal engineer" at this stage but I don't place too much stock in job titles to be honest) I've worked with people of all ages, levels of experience and rates of remuneration. In spite of what many people generally assume, there are no hard and fast rules to career progression and, in this day and age, it's simplistic to assume that the longer one works the "higher up the hierarchy" one must travel either for one's own personal development or, more to the point, for better remuneration. 

Anyway, pursuing a particular career path because that is supposedly the done thing as opposed to doing what you enjoy and do best is hardly conducive to a balanced approach to work/life?


----------



## harza (25 Apr 2003)

*MBA*



> I currently do short-term work in IT. Going grand for now, though I guess the day will come when I have trouble getting work. I will want other options ready.



I'm not sure that an MBA will provide you with many more options if/when you start having trouble getting work in IT.


----------



## CM (25 Apr 2003)

*..*

Why the Open University MBA ? Would you not chose a better distant learning option such as Durham University Business School ?


----------



## XXXAnother PersonXXX (26 Apr 2003)

*Re: ..*



> And then (being that bit older) I would need to be a manager of some kind, because purely technical permanent jobs have quite a salary ceiling.



You would 'need' to be a manager? - why? Do you actually like management?

I know that I hate it.

I do IT technical work and haven't reached a 'ceiling' yet.


----------



## billydoyle (28 Apr 2003)

Hello Folks,
Thanks for the replies. Sorry for this long and meandering response...

*salary ceiling -* In my own experience, as someone moves away from hands-on work, they can progess up the hirerarchy, getting progressively higher salary, so no ceiling there. (software engineer to team leader to project manager or development manger) Anyone I have known writing code (as part of a permanent job, maybe software engineer) at more than 35 years old, is not doing well out of it. That is the ceiling I am thinking of. "Principal Engineer" kinda thing is just about where I am at now also. My principal concern is mobility, and transferable skills. Architect or Principal Engineer type work is very enjoyable for me, though it is appears to be generally done by people with great knowledge of particular industry or sector. More importantly, it seems like a slow-turnover area, so I might be longer looking for work. On the plus side of 'slow turn-over', I might not get laid off so fast. My impression is that smaller companies have one or two such people, and they stay forever. If that company expands, it hires a couple of junior engineers and an operations manager. The main point of my thinking is that I would like to also be a good candidate for a more senior management role (operations manager/director or such) in a few years. 

*open university -* no better reason than a pal is currently doing one with them. His circumstances are quite different, not purely copy-cat.
Some of the course material really interests me, I imagine the rest of it could be tedious.

*the balanced approcahed to work and life * - so far I have enjoyed most the better paid jobs I have done, there's a happy co-incidence. So my policy is simply to chase the remuneration, job satistaction seems to follow. 

*do I like management - * some previous jobs (product manager, service manager) drove me nuts, so I'm not even sure of that yet !   If I was sure I could keep doing my current main job forever (technical architect), I would do that. 

cheers,
JM


----------



## Sean (28 Apr 2003)

*an MBA - is it worth it ?*

QUOTE:
"Anyone I have known writing code (as part of a permanent job, maybe software engineer) at more than 35 years old, is not doing well out of it."


May I ask, how much do the (not doing well out of it) software engineers make - approximately.....


----------



## MAC (29 Apr 2003)

*Value of the MBA*

Billy,

I survived the OU MBA and graduated about 2 years ago. It demands a LOT of time - in Ireland most of teh guys doing it had full time (to say the least jobs) so it was a struggle to keep up with the schedule. 

The materials were excellent, the lecturers were a mixed bag (like elsewhere). Som eof the graduates changed job for a variety of reasons and picked the extra cash, other stayed where they were.

The real value of the MBA is that it broadens your experience. So if you work in Production and you get Sales heads telling you that you wouldn't understand Marketing and Finance lads look at you as if you have 2 heads cos you don't understand NPV etc. well now you can look 'em in the eye!

Same applies if you are a Finance head and the production lads are waffling on about JIT and so on, you should have a better handle on their areas of expertise.

So, in summary - it's well wrth doing. The networking is great, and not just for getting jobs. As the younger kids get more confident you commmand more respect if you have the MBA..... and by the way the residentials in te UK / Holland / Paris etc can be greta crack!

MAC


----------



## Observer (30 Apr 2003)

*Re: Value of the MBA*

I think MAC has just about hit the nail on the head.  Its definitely hard work so better do it before the pitter-patter comes along!

I think it was Churchill who said something like "the sole purpose of education is to enable one to tell when a man is talking rot".  There's a lot of truth in that and an MBA will certainly stop anybody intimidating you with dubious management jargon.

It also gives you a tremendously broad view of the business (and-non business!) world.  Even if you don't directly change your career as a result, you will still learn much that will turn out useful to you, perhaps in quite unexpected areas.  

Surprisingly, it is also good fun and there is a good interaction of different disciplines, typically you will get engineers, accountants, marketing types, general managers and so on.

I have to say I don't know much about the Open University program, but I would advise you to research all options open to you.  The UCD/Smurfit school one is particularly well regrded, IMHO.


----------



## James B (30 Apr 2003)

*Value of the MBA*

I don't think the salary ceiling point on it's own is a valid point for doing an MBA or moving into management. If one feels that they will have difficulty adapting to new tech as age progresses, then management may be an option if the door opens. But I wouldn't say that management will automatically offer a greater salary. I'm currenly 28 and earn in the 70K region. I hope to stay in a technical role for some time to come.

Rgds.
James


----------



## Earnalotless (30 Apr 2003)

*70k!!*

James B,

Just curious - where do you work (I'd like a job there!!).  Or are you contractor perhaps?  I am the same age as you working in a technical role and I earn half your salary!  Probably spent too long in college....


----------



## James B (30 Apr 2003)

*70k!!*

Yes Im contracting. I've been contracting in the same company for the last 3 years and see myself as having the same if mot better security as a time employee. Sure I dont get paid for holidays or sick days, hence I charge highly for the time Im on site. They are happy with the situation and so am I.

Rgds


----------



## ClubMan (30 Apr 2003)

*Re: 70k!!*

_Earnalotless_, don't worry - you're not alone! :\


----------



## Earnalotless (30 Apr 2003)

*70k!!*

Clubman,

But we're probably happier!!!!!! :rolleyes


----------



## ClubMan (30 Apr 2003)

*Re: 70k!!*

Well, now that you mention it.... I've mainly worked as a full time employee (as opposed to contractor) for small Dublin based startups since graduation in 1988 :eek  and originally started on the princely sum of IR£8K. However I was fortunate in that (a) I was able to work continuously in my area of choice (i.e. the nitty gritty of software engineering and specifically design/implementation mostly using state of the art technologies of the time) and by and large with people I liked/trusted, even through the relatively lean and definitely pre "dot com" late 80s and early 90s and (b) I received a fairly progressive and relatively generous salary reviews/increments over the years without needing to be pushy (as if!      ). In recent years, as, I guess, a de-facto principal engineer (even if, as I mentioned, I don't place much value on job titles) in my early/mid 30s I reached my remuneration peak when I was earning an overall package (salary, pension, health insurance etc.) of c. €60-€70K. Unfortunately I was made redundant early last year and spent about six months on the dole for the first time in my life. Although this was a bit of a shock, in some ways this was indeed a case of a change being as good as a rest. At the end of last year I was able to return to work but on a much reduced salary with no benefits, and things are still a little precarious given the general state of the tech industry. Over the years I have managed to buy my own house (fortuituously a mid 90s purchase when prices were still relatively low) and save/invest a not insignificant amount (although not enough to retire just yet I'm afraid) so I'm fairly comfortably off. Because of this I guess it's easy to be sanguine but other life events (including the death of my father a couple of years ago, some other issues the year before that and my marriage last year in particular) have made me realise that money, although obviously necessary, is definitely not the be all and end all and there are many other issues and factors which are just as, if not more, important.

As such, all things considered I am indeed happier than I was a few years ago when I was earning significantly more than I am now - so there  

Apologies for waffling on but just thought I'd post that. Oh, don't be fooled if you get the impression that I have discovered the secret of true happiness or something like that - I haven't and certainly still have my bad days... :\


----------



## M3 (30 Apr 2003)

*Re: 70k!!*

Earnalotless,

I wouldn't have thought 70K excessive money for contracting , I don't know how many days James B works  but if he does 200 days/year thats €350 a day, a fairly standard charge (depending on the area).

Do you mind me asking what technical area you work in?

M3


----------



## M3 (30 Apr 2003)

*Re: 70k!!*

Clubman,

Sounds like you've had a rough time of it over the last couple of years.... 

Are things really that bad in the irish sw industry that a guy with your level of experience could be out of a job for 6 months??  

I haven't been in the jobs market for about 10 years but I didn't think it was that bad...

M3


----------



## ClubMan (1 May 2003)

*Re: 70k!!*

*Sounds like you've had a rough time of it over the last couple of years....*

That's life - others have it a lot worse...

*Are things really that bad in the irish sw industry that a guy with your level of experience could be out of a job for 6 months?? *

Well, to be honest, for various reasons I didn't try very hard to find work at the time, so I wouldn't extrapolate from my experience (or other isolated anecdotes) to the state of the (IT) job market in general.


----------

