# parked illegally in a loading area but with a wheelchair sticker?



## Paloma (22 Jun 2007)

Using my parent's wheelchair sign (they've no car - depend on family) stopped to collect cleaning on loading area as no parking of any type available.  Walked 10 metres, paid for cleaning, was approx 3 mins. Traffic warden was just finished writing summons.  Must have been waiting in shadows watching me leave car. I was definitely parked illegally in a loading area but with a wheelchair sticker? Was this justified?

Split from here: 	 	  	  		 		 			 			 			 			 			 			Failing to stop at stop sign. Wrong street mentioned on summons, can I weasel out?


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## Graham_07 (22 Jun 2007)

*Re: driving offence*



Paloma said:


> Using my parent's wheelchair sign (they've no car - depend on family) stopped to collect cleaning on loading area as no parking of any type available. Walked 10 metres, paid for cleaning, was approx 3 mins. Traffic warden was just finished writing summons. Must have been waiting in shadows watching me leave car. I was definitely parked illegally in a loading area but with a wheelchair sticker? Was this justified?


 
Unfortunately, unless a disabled driver or passenger was there at the time, think you're stumped there and warden would have been justified. Mind you, even with a sticker and disabled person on board, I'm not sure are you allowed park in a loading area? Open to correction tho.


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## Ravima (22 Jun 2007)

*Re: driving offence*

I think that it is a gross abuse of disabled driver pass to use car to collect cleaning. 

If you get a fine, pay up.

If you fight it, you could get a heavier fine. you cetainly will not have sympathy of judge.


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## jhegarty (22 Jun 2007)

*Re: driving offence*

Paloma:
Yes it was... and how dare you abuse that parking sticker....


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## z108 (23 Jun 2007)

*Re: driving offence*

was the ticket for the loading bay parking or the fact you had no disabled passenger with you ? I think the former ?


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## Caveat (24 Jun 2007)

*Re: Parking in Diabled Bay without permit*

Think sign has a point - leaving out the sticker misuse for the moment, in my experience, wardens are extremely vigilant re unauthorised use of loading bays. I think this may have been your offence on this occasion.


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## KalEl (24 Jun 2007)

Surely a disabled sticker allows the car to be parked in "disabled" spaces. It's not a licence to park anywhere and everywhere. The offence was parking in a loading bay. Having a disabled sticker or permit was irrelevant.


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## nad (24 Jun 2007)

Have to agree with Kalel on this one, and for paloma to think that having a disabled permit could or should make a difference in this case is unbelievable.


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## CCOVICH (24 Jun 2007)

Is there a requirement for a disabled person to be actually using the vehicle (even as a passenger) for the disabled parking permit to be valid, or does it apply regardless?


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## Caveat (24 Jun 2007)

This seems to imply that the card holder must at least be a passenger and that card 'transfer' between relatives or family members is not permitted:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...rking_facilities_for_people_with_disabilities

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...rking_facilities_for_people_with_disabilities


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## ClubMan (24 Jun 2007)

Paloma said:


> I was definitely parked illegally in a loading area but with a wheelchair sticker? Was this justified?


As above - no. You were illegally parked and the permit did not have any bearing on the situation.


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## Pee (24 Jun 2007)

This is one of my pet hates - drivers mis-using a disabled sticker. I always report misuse of this concession.

I don't wish you any more bother than you are already in but the traffic warden may also report the misuse if they ntoiced it.

Pay the fine your due and read the instructions issued with the sticer for correct use.


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## Graham_07 (25 Jun 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> Is there a requirement for a disabled person to be actually using the vehicle (even as a passenger) for the disabled parking permit to be valid, or does it apply regardless?


 
The disabled permit is for the PERSON not the VEHICLE. The permit carries the photograph of the person. Therefore a disabled driver or passenger has the benefit of the the permit in whatever vehicle they are currently travelling.


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## CCOVICH (25 Jun 2007)

Graham_07 said:


> The disabled permit is for the PERSON not the VEHICLE. The permit carries the photograph of the person. Therefore a disabled driver or passenger has the benefit of the the permit in whatever vehicle they are currently travelling.


 

Yes, that is pretty clear from _Caveat's_ link above.


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## tosullivan (25 Jun 2007)

who own's the loading bay?
any thing to do with the cleaning shop?


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## CCOVICH (25 Jun 2007)

Do individual traders own loading bays? I thought they were owned by the local authority?


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## TDON (25 Jun 2007)

Paloma, if your parents have one of these cards and you are one of their drivers, then at some stage, when you have been struggling with one of your parents, you've probably come across some other clown that has parked in such a way to make it impossible to  bring a wheelchair alongside the passenger side  of the car and had to improvise by using a loading bay. Or even worse found a car parked in a wheelchair parking spot without a card. However, your parent(s) were not with you, from reading you post. I know it can be frustrating, time consuming and pressurising looking after an invalid, but unless you have that person with you in the car, you don't have a leg to stand on here. You may pay the fine.


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## z108 (25 Jun 2007)

But what if god forbid the wheelchair passenger fell ill, was taken away via ambulance and the driver was merely returning to collect the car ?

Or if the driver was merely returning to drive the car closer to the wheelchair bound passenger who might be around the corner ? A traffic warden has no way of knowing the exact circumstances.

I'm interested in the thought processes of the warden vs the law here.


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## CCOVICH (25 Jun 2007)

sign said:


> But what if god forbid the wheelchair passenger fell ill, was taken away via ambulance and the driver was merely returning to collect the car ?


 
Presumably the hospital could verify this was the case.



			
				sign said:
			
		

> Or if the driver was merely returning to drive the car closer to the wheelchair bound passenger who might be around the corner ? A traffic warden has no way of knowing the exact circumstances.


 
Then either (a) bring the warden to the permit holder, or (b) bring the permit holder to the warden.


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## RainyDay (27 Jun 2007)

Pee said:


> This is one of my pet hates - drivers mis-using a disabled sticker. I always report misuse of this concession.


Just curious - Who do you report it to?


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## Pee (28 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Just curious - Who do you report it to?


 
I write to the Irish Wheelchair Association (they manage the distribution of the permits on behalf of whichever department has the responsibility of same) giving the vehicle registration and location of misuse and a permit number if available.


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## z108 (28 Jun 2007)

CCOVICH said:


> Presumably the hospital could verify this was the case.
> 
> 
> 
> Then either (a) bring the warden to the permit holder, or (b) bring the permit holder to the warden.



That wouldnt help someone who was reported to the wheelchair association as below... how could you defend yourself against being unfairly reported by someone with a grudge ?




Pee said:


> I write to the Irish Wheelchair Association (they manage the distribution of the permits on behalf of whichever department has the responsibility of same) giving the vehicle registration and location of misuse and a permit number if available.


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## KalEl (28 Jun 2007)

sign said:


> That wouldnt help someone who was reported to the wheelchair association as below... how could you defend yourself against being unfairly reported by someone with a grudge ?


 
Do you really think there's anyone nasty enough to falsely report a disabled person?


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## SOM42 (28 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Just curious - Who do you report it to?


 
I would also be interested.  There's a perfectly able bodied woman paking her car in the disabled spaces at the local train station. (It has a sticker)  this is surely gross misuse given that she travels alone.


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## ClubMan (28 Jun 2007)

SOM42 said:


> I would also be interested.


Already answered here.


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## RainyDay (28 Jun 2007)

SOM42 said:


> There's a perfectly able bodied woman paking her car in the disabled spaces at the local train station. (It has a sticker)  this is surely gross misuse given that she travels alone.


Not all disabilities are obvious or visible. However, the IWA have spoken out in the past about abuses of the system, including abuses by relatives such as the OP.


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## SOM42 (28 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Not all disabilities are obvious or visible.


 
Well if she one she keeps it pretty concealed given the way she strides up and down the ramp to the platform, but I take your point.


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## z108 (29 Jun 2007)

KalEl said:


> Do you really think there's anyone nasty enough to falsely report a disabled person?



A rival disabled person ?   lol 


Ok back to the issue. The motive doesnt matter, its the fact it can happen unfairly regardless of the motives of the tell-tale person which I am pointing out.


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## RainyDay (29 Jun 2007)

sign said:


> Ok back to the issue. The motive doesnt matter, its the fact it can happen unfairly regardless of the motives of the tell-tale person which I am pointing out.


What's your point? Once you have any authority (e.g. Gardai, ComReg, Competition Authority or IWA), you allow the risk of unfair reporting. There is generally a process at the other end to ensure natural justice. No action is taken simply on foot of a report.


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## z108 (29 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> What's your point? Once you have any authority (e.g. Gardai, ComReg, Competition Authority or IWA), you allow the risk of unfair reporting....



My point is clear regarding civilians taking it upon themselves to police other civilians. 
You appeared to have gone on a rant about authority in general but I was very specific about distinguishing between legitimate and illegitimate authority. How is the wheelchair authority supposed to act upon the complaint/word of a civilian without proof ? And what constitutes proof considering the possibility of someone reporting based upon mere perception which can be misleading? I'd worry it could be wasting everyones valuable time. Now if a traffic official informs the wheelchair authority after an on site investigation thats a different matter. 
If I had a wheelchair sticker  on my car and went to bring my grandmother out shopping I'd find it very cheeky for some busybody with absolutely no credentials to walk up to me and begin an interrogation. I could well find myself leaving granny with mom and going back to the car for my mobile phone (among many possible reasons). What do you advocate happening in such a case ? If you happened to arrive  in the car park at the same time as this and spotted me alone at the car what would you do ?


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## Pee (29 Jun 2007)

sign said:


> A rival disabled person ?  lol
> 
> 
> Ok back to the issue. The motive doesnt matter, its the fact it can happen unfairly regardless of the motives of the tell-tale person which I am pointing out.


 
So what's the solution for misuse? There is a responsibility on the permit user not to abuse the privilage, so when joe public notices a misuse what should s/he do? Turn a blind eye?

Anytime I report a misuse I give my contact details and home address, I've nothing to hide.


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## z108 (29 Jun 2007)

Pee said:


> So what's the solution for misuse? There is a responsibility on the permit user not to abuse the privilage, so when joe public notices a misuse what should s/he do? Turn a blind eye?
> 
> Anytime I report a misuse I give my contact details and home address, I've nothing to hide.



Yes and when you report a 'misuse' , have you interrogated the driver of the car and investigated this fully ? I think thats  a bit too close to a definition of 'stalking' for my comfort.  I would think most people who  have disabled parking tickets  spend a lot of time driving around for their elderly parents  or disabled friends/relatives and probably dont deserve the additional grief.
Even if you are prepared to go to 'court' as a witness over a parking ticket its still your word against theirs. What can you achieve ?
The only idea I can offer you is, if you have the energy and commitment to pursuing this then go find a traffic warden or a guard and get them to investigate it.
I personally get far more upset about ignorant people littering in public because theres no ambiguity about their behaviour.Once they do it they cant cover it up. I would suggest anyone who is public spirited to tackle this one.


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## RainyDay (29 Jun 2007)

sign said:


> I would suggest anyone who is public spirited to tackle this one.


How?


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## z108 (29 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> How?



I'd broadly agree with your view expressed below except I have to admit I wouldnt be as polite as yourself when faced with shameless littering.



RainyDay said:


> I think it is important to 'call' this behaviour, i.e. speak directly to the persons concerned (not in an aggressive manner) making it clear that this behaviour is not acceptable, that they are putting the health of other children at risk and that you are taking down their car reg number for reporting to the local litter warden.
> 
> We need to make sure that it is not socially acceptable.




I dont want anyone to think I dont believe in the importance of disabled people having access to the spaces they are entitled to but if someone litters and you are present, the chances are you can see it with your own two eyes. This is much more black and white than writing letters about someone just because you dont like the look of them.




sign said:


> If I had a wheelchair sticker  on my car and went to bring my grandmother out shopping I'd find it very cheeky for some busybody with absolutely no credentials to walk up to me and begin an interrogation. I could well find myself leaving granny with mom and going back to the car for my mobile phone (among many possible reasons). What do you advocate happening in such a case ? If you happened to arrive  in the car park at the same time as this and spotted me alone at the car what would you do ?



The above wasnt a rhetorical question by the way. There is no way I could accuse someone of doing something wrong unless I was 100% sure they did it. 90% sure isnt good enough. Unlike littering which would be self evident. And I dont consider it to be my right to interrogate other citizens about their comings and goings either.


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## RainyDay (30 Jun 2007)

Perhaps the litter got blown out of their hand by the wind? Perhaps they have arthritis and they are unable to grip properly?


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## z108 (30 Jun 2007)

I wish to remind you for the 2nd time it wasnt a rhetorical question by the way in my last post and I would like an answer since I answered every single one of your questions. Is everyone with a wheelchair sticker now guilty until proven innocent ?



RainyDay said:


> Perhaps the litter got blown out of their hand by the wind? Perhaps they have arthritis and they are unable to grip properly?



You can  choose to complain about my opinion  instead of real issues if you like.  You only end up criticising yourself in your own post regarding litter.
My view is if litter falls  then you pick it up. I have always picked up after myself in such situations and policing other peoples lives doesnt keep me awake at night either.


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## RainyDay (30 Jun 2007)

WHat happens if you get unfairly reported for littering by a disabled person with a grudge?


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## z108 (30 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> WHat happens if you get unfairly reported for littering by a disabled person with a grudge?



In this scenario why is someone having a disability relevant  at all ?


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## RainyDay (30 Jun 2007)

Who said that it was relevant?


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## z108 (30 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> Who said that it was relevant?



It's fairly obvious to a reader you deem it relevant enough to use as an example.
*With respect *to you Rainyday, you seem to be subsequently admitting you have no point whether you realise it or not.

Unless we get back to real issues this is my last response on the matter as I have no interest in playing word games

The thread has been hijacked from the issue of wheelchair parking. There are other threads dealing with litter and as a moderator you are expected to know this in my humble opinion.

Regards and much respect to the moderator crew ,


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## RainyDay (30 Jun 2007)

Yes, of course, I've been playing silly buggers - in an attempt to expose the inanity of your arguements. You come up with obscure and unlikely scenarios ('the wheelchair passenger fell ill, was taken away via ambulance and the driver was merely returning to collect the car ...the driver was merely returning to drive the car closer to the wheelchair bound passenger who might be around the corner'), so I come up with equally obscure and unlikely scenarios. You come up with concerns about reporting abuses of disabled parking, so I come with up with equally valid concerns about reporting littering. You have rightly exposed the weaknesses in my points about littering, and in doing so, you have exposed the weaknesses in your own concerns about disabled parking.

Reporting abuses (whether of disabled parking, or littering, or speeding or whatever) is not a panacea and is not a perfect process. Reporting of abuse does not automatically find anyone guilty of anything. It is the first step in a process - no more and no less.


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## z108 (30 Jun 2007)

RainyDay said:


> You have rightly exposed the weaknesses in my points about littering, and in doing so, you have exposed the weaknesses in your own concerns about disabled parking.



The situation outlined is one I have actually been in .e.g collecting granny (recovering from broken hip at 96), leaving her with mom , going back to car to retrieve mobile etc. The only difference  with us is we never bothered to apply for a disabled parking sticker. We couldnt be bothered and we park the same as everyone else.

I'm glad I at least have an argument. I resent and find it very cheeky of you to equate your self acknowledged weak litter comments with my valid observations. There is no weakness in what you like to term my arguments. I asked questions which you have refused to answer despite having the time to inject all sorts of nonsense into the thread. 


And you talk about 'inanity' of arguments ? If you are trying to convince someone of your point of view you should start not by attacking someone personally but by actually addressing the raised issues previously outlined if you actually bothered to read.... 



RainyDay said:


> Yes, of course, I've been playing silly buggers.



Thats the only thing I agree  about.


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