# Local authorities are giving out houses too easily



## Brendan Burgess (8 May 2004)

_Originally posted by "The Problem is..." in another forum:_

The problem is that now that the country has become so wealthy, councils are building houses at taxpayers exp and a pair of teenagers (really teenagers, no kids) who have just starting holding hands in public can now get a council house. This is happening in rural Ireland. In small town in Cavan, council has built 50+ houses in last three years and 32 are empty. They are giving them out to anyone who applies and has a family history of having a council house provided. 

This is starting to make even me, someone who works hard, saves for the future, feels can't afford another child (got one), why bother? Give up the two jobs my husband and I have, get a council house, go on a course, have some more kids. Couldn't do it but there is the real issue.


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## monk (9 May 2004)

*Giving up houses too easily*

Yes, they are & they're also giving free food & shelter to the homeless, the cheek!! Think about it FF are in power, only builders, horse trainers & their other mates get something for nothing.. 
I'm happy you have a house but many don't & cannot afford it in modern Ireland, Bottom line...


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## MOB (9 May 2004)

I don't think there is a general oversupply of local authority houses.  However, as we get close (finally) to being able to meet housing needs (and I believe we are getting very close to this point) there are going to be occasional local oversupply issues.  I am personally aware of 6 "affordable" houses no more than 50 miles from Dublin, where the local authority have had to advertise continuously to find anybody to take them - including advertising in towns 15 miles away (which would suggest they had abandoned hope of finding enough locals).  Undoubtedly as officials struggle to save face, rather than admit that they got it wrong in projecting housing needs in any given area, some people will get local authority houses or affordable houses in circumstances where it does't seem that they really should.  I expect things will even out after a while.


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## rainyday (10 May 2004)

It would clearly make sense to review the statistics for the country as a whole before taking any drastic action. Oversupply in one county is not a good reason for cancelling the public housing scheme as a whole. I understand that there are still very lengthy waiting lists in Dublin, and you are likely to need > 1 child before you would qualify.

Of course, it is dangerous to have any scheme which appears to incentivise people to have more children than they can provide for. But if you were to cancel the public housing scheme, who would you be punishing - the parent or the child? And does anyone working on minimum wage have a hope in hell of being able to get accomodation without turning to their local authority?


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## Delboy (12 May 2004)

*Local Authority Housing*

Totally agree with you Brendan.

Lately, a new development was built in a village not far from me in the west of Ireland. Over 50 odd houses which doubled the size of the village!!!!!!

I know of some local girls who were barely 20, still living at home, and just managed to get pregnant while the houses were being built. They applied for the houses and got them immediately. I'm not saying they planned to get pregnant, but none of them are in long term relationships, or have regular employment. They even seemed to take great joy in the local telling all and sundry about their new houses and inviting all over for parties when they were built. Not nice to hear when you've just taken out a colossal mortgage yourself.

A mate of mine who is married with 1 kid, also got a house, plus 3 grand towards furnishing it. He pays back something like 20 euro a month, as both himself and the wife are on the dole but still can afford a fairly new car. They're well capable of working but don't see the need to do so as they claim they would'nt have got the house if they did work. His mother owns an average sized farm that she leases and 1 day this will be his.

It's a great little country......who's the fool in all of this!!!!


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## Brendan Burgess (12 May 2004)

*Re: Local Authority Housing*

Hi Delboy

Just to make it clear I have not expressed a view on this subject.  I have simply transferred the above views from another thread.

Brendan


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## Delboy (12 May 2004)

*Local authroity housing*

Fair enough Brendan. my apologies for alluding to you.


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## The problem is (12 May 2004)

*.*

Monk, I was not talking about the poor and homeless.  I am pointing about oversupply, councils unable to fill houses and, in one case I know, resorting to giving a house to two teenagers who moved out of their family homes and have no kids.

I cannot see the justification for that.

I am not even talking about the young single parents because accidents can happen.

Rainyday, the only drastic action on the matter I might have alluded to was that some measurment of need for social housing in a particular area should happen before the houses are built at tax payers expense.


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## CM (13 May 2004)

*Great little country*



> They're well capable of working but don't see the need to do so as they claim they would'nt have got the house if they did work. His mother owns an average sized farm that she leases and 1 day this will be his.
> 
> It's a great little country......who's the fool in all of this!!!!



With virtually full employment in this country, we should be really clamping down on cheats / spongers like this, and telling them to get on their bike to Dublin / Cork and start paying income tax like everyone else.

But none of the politicians in this country have the neck to stand up and say this.


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## rainyday (13 May 2004)

*Re: Great little country*



> Rainyday, the only drastic action on the matter I might have alluded to was that some measurment of need for social housing in a particular area should happen before the houses are built at tax payers expense.



Couldn't disagree with that. However, I could disagree with the begrudging post from Delboy above where he takes offence at the hosting of a house-warming party. What do you expect - sackcloth and ashes?

Either we accept the need for local authority housing, or we don't? Assuming that most of us do, we need sensible enforcement (and tracking down of any fraudsters). But we don't really need to expect council recipients to tug their forelock and bow down in gratitude and never have a party.


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## littlegubby (8 Jun 2004)

*Re: Great little country*

here here! rainyday.. this discussion can go on and on..like the other big decision we must make on June 11th. but I can only see if from where I am standing. In my house at the moment there are 6 adults and one child... my lovely granddaughter. my daughter with her child has been told that she has little or no hope of getting housed in the forseeable future. Her ex (father of child) is constantly harrassing her (after a year of seperation) so much that we fear for her safety if she had to move very far from her home. We live in county cork and there doesnt seem to be any surplus of houses here. I met a girl the other day who  had just got a 2bedroom flat after SEVEN years liveing with parents in overcrowed conditions. I can only speak for here... maybe we should move!!!


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## darag (9 Jun 2004)

*Re: Great little country*

actually i don't agree with the government or local authorities building social houses.  for one thing it often results in creating ghettos of social deprivation much more so than privately built housing.  misguided social housing schemes have caused untold misery and social isolation in this country.

secondly it ties up welfare resources in a completely inflexible way.  peoples' situations change (both improve and get worse) and it is difficult or impossible for the welfare system to respond in a timely manner as this thread demonstrates.  this inflexibility also causes great inequity in the way welfare resources are allocated.

i'd prefer to offer proper rent allowance (linked to average rent levels) as the form of housing welfare as well as some reform of tenancy laws in favour of tenants.  i know such a system operates reasonably successfully in germany.  such a system addresses both of the problems;  the recipients of the welfare are distributed among the non-welfare receiving population and if a person's situation improves the welfare can be reduced or eliminated.  likewise, welfare resources can be very quickly allocated to those that need it.


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## mary (10 Jun 2004)

*rent*

What about security of tenancy you do not get with private accommodation.


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## mollser (10 Jun 2004)

*while on the topic...*

slightly off topic, but similar, the Irish times had a story yesterday about the new luxurious 4 bed approx e340k houses in Co. Clare (?) to move travellers into. e4m has been spent on these houses. And one family refused to move in because of a dispute with another family who got a house. 

Whatever about spending money on building houses for poor unfortunates, this above scenario goes beyond disgraceful. I object to my tax money being used in this way. I don't think we can blame FF either - it was local council who funded this project.


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## Protocol (11 Jun 2004)

*typical*

If travellers want houses, let them buy them like anybody else.  They have businesses, and incomes, so let them buy a house if they want one.

The taxpapers shouldn't be paying for them.


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## rainyday (11 Jun 2004)

*Re: typical*

So we should as a society, specifically discriminate against one ethnic group, based on anecdotal evidence of other income/jobs? Charming eh?

Certainly, if travellers do have income, this should be taxed and should be taken into consideration when allocating council housing.

Mollser, just [broken link removed], Fianna Fail have monopolised Clare County Council for nearly 70 years.


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## Protocol (11 Jun 2004)

*bit of a rant*



> Certainly, if travellers do have income, this should be taxed and should be taken into consideration when allocating council housing.



Except I strongly doubt that this happens. Do you really think they will have a P60 or certified accounts to show their income??

Clearly not.

So they have a good income, *and get a free house*. Positive discrimination in favour of a small group in society.

By the by, one could argue that they contribute very little to society, but take a lot from society.  I doubt they are paying €100 tax per week like many other people.

And while I'm on this point, it often seems that "society" is to blame for their poor health and shorter lives.

Obviously, it's not. If I lived on the side of the road for years, with poor sanitation, my life expectancy would be less.

*My own fault for choosing to live like that*.

*Not society's fault*.

Same goes for AIDS. The impression is often given that it is somehow society's fault, and that these people are "victims".

Not the case. Most AIDS cases are entirely preventable. You own fault for sleeping around or using risky needles.

*Not society's fault*.


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## rainyday (12 Jun 2004)

*Re: bit of a rant*

I'm not quite sure I understand, Protocol. Are you saying that you know personally and for sure yourself that ALL travellers 'have a good income'? If so, I'd be interested to hear your supporting data?

And your comment about AIDS could be logically extended to almost everyone in hospital. They should all have eaten less, exercised more, given up smoking, driven slower, managed stress better, drank less etc etc. All their own fault. Perhaps we should just shut down the hospitals and let people look after themselves?


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## Protocol (12 Jun 2004)

*no data*

I have no data.

They do not ALL have a good income.

What I do have is eyes, and a small bit of cop-on. New Isuzu Troopers aren't cheap, I will never be able to afford one. So these travellers who own such vehicles must have access to strong incomes to afford them.

Fair play to them. If they work hard, and earn a good income, they buy a new jeep.  Grand.

But have they paid income tax along the way??  I wonder.

Your point about AIDS is taken.  What I am getting at is the type of media reports: "World Health Conference says we should be doing more for AIDS crisis in Africa", that sort of thing.  If male Africans are promiscious and sleeping around, it's not my fault, or the west's fault. But that's the impression that the media give.


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## rainyday (13 Jun 2004)

*Re: no data*



> But have they paid income tax along the way?? I wonder.


Absolutely agree - and I'd love to see Revenue hitting any tax fraudsters (travellers, AIB exec directors, dodgy landlords etc etc) hard. But I don't see the relevance to the housing issue, once a sensible assessment of income is done.


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## S (13 Jun 2004)

*Re: no data*

If local authorities can build houses relatively cheaply it just shows the enormous profits developers are making on similar size properties.


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## MissRibena (16 Jun 2004)

*AIDS and houses*

Protocol

I am astounded by the things you've said about the African AIDS crisis, such as "If male Africans are promiscious and sleeping around, it's not my fault, or the west's fault." 

It's certainly not the fault of the AIDS-infected babies who are born as a result of such a coupling either.  And women's rights in many African countries don't have a good track record either - how many women become infected as a result of non-consensual contraceptive-free sex?  For example, The "west" stood by for far too long in Rwanda while many of the women that were lucky enough to escape slaughter by machete were gang-raped and infected with AIDS.  How many African people don't have access to basic education to understand the issues involved in the first place, nevermind that access to proper contraception?

Contraception is not always widely available and/or affordable in Africa at the best of times.  I don't have any data (but neither do you!) but I'd be willing to bet that the Western pharmaceutical giants producing condoms are not dropping them down in bales from aeroplanes.  God knows, plenty of people in Ireland seem to have a hard time sorting themselves out contraception-wise - we're just lucky that AIDS is not so widespread here.

To make matters worse, AIDS treatments (such as they are) have been priced exhorbitantly by the Western pharmaceutical giants that developed them and only recently have generic alternatives become available and even then they are not cheap enough.

I find it particularly galling that the trials and research necessary in the hunt for an AIDS cure are carried out on the people of Uganda and for many people infected their only chance of prolonging their life by getting hold of the drugs, is to risk their (already shortened) lives in trials.  And all so the companies can develop better drugs (or hopefully a cure) that they can sell to rich Western hospitals and then deny to the neighbours of very human guinea-pigs that had such an important role in their development.

Obviously none of this is directly anyone's fault, especially not the people who have been infected but trade structures and agreements in the developed world certainly don't help or give a fair shot at people from less well-off parts of the world.  If we accept a responsbility for any human being beyond "us and ours", then surely each human being is as important as the next.  I am an atheist but I do wonder if the decline in so-called Christian charity with all it's flaws just basically leaves a selfish void.

On the house front .. I live right beside a brand new Council estate of 36 houses in a small town.  There are the usual rumours that 2 or 3 of the households could well afford their own but this is just the usual annecdotal stuff.  I'm sure there are people that are good at "working the system" and that the line between those that deserve houses and those that don't is a fine one but I don't think it is bad system overall.  What I do object to though is that the houses are built beside an old council estate and I thought that this kind of thing was going to stop to prevent "ghetto-isation".  The quality of the build looks really good (private contractor) but the sites themselves are very small and there is no green area - I doubt planning permission would have been granted to a private residential complex in the same spot.  It still feels like the Council are flinging them any old where because they are "only" council houses.  Mind you, the "planning" dept in my local authority area is so bad it's practically an oxymoron.

Rebecca


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## shoegirl (21 Jun 2004)

*Depopulation*

I think a lot of the problem is that much of rural Ireland is rapidly being depopulated.  Also the housing system as it stands practically invites fraud.  The assessment of housing need is not backed up by a thorough investigation of the individuals circumstances.  I know a single woman in her 30s who was housed by a housing association in one of our cities, who has a mother living in a 2 or 3 bed house 1 mile away, and who is working in the black economy which nearly triples what she gets on disability.  She is basically a practiced social welfare cheat and gets away with it because she comes from a family of welfare cheats who know the system and teach each other to do the same.  Most people wouldn't have the gall to fail to mention the fact that they were renting a house on rent allowance despite the fact that they could have lived rent free with their mother.  Fair play to the government for limiting access to rent allowance last year as this was widely abused by people who had no need of housing.  Once they get rent allowance its easier to get on the housing list.

By the way when I was growing up in Dublin in the 1980s almost everybody living in social housing seemed to actually work for the council . . .


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## MOB (22 Jun 2004)

*Learning to work the system*

Short anecdote.  Sorry if this is feeding prejudices.

A good friend of mine used to work as a teacher in a fairly rough secondary school in Dublin.  She had some children out one day on some sort of excursion, and she was taking the opportunity to try to get them to "open up".   She asked one of the kids what he wanted to do when he finished school, and he replied that he wanted to go to some or other Nordic state (Sweden I think, but not sure).  Intrigued and delighted to see some little bit of aspiration where none was expected, she asked why he wanted to go there

"Because they have a great dole system Miss - my brother is already up there"


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## rainyday (22 Jun 2004)

*Re: Learning to work the system*



> "Because they have a great dole system Miss - my brother is already up there"


This reflects more on the teacher than on the school-kid.


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## Protocol (22 Jun 2004)

*How?*

How does it reflect more on the teacher?

One might have thought that it shows that poverty and low-incomes are often "inherited".

Or that if the parents or older siblings are on unemployment payments then the younger children might get the imprssion that it's OK to be on unemployment payments long-term.

Which of course it isn't.


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## rainyday (22 Jun 2004)

*Re: How?*

Because the teacher (or the entire educational system) has failed that child. [And yes, fault lies with the brother/family too]


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## mollser (22 Jun 2004)

> So we should as a society, specifically discriminate against one ethnic group, based on anecdotal evidence of other income/jobs? Charming eh?



As protocol says, its positive discrimination - these guys are being rewarded for being a drain on society. I do not know of any other group of people who are simply handed houses worth e340k - i'd be quite sure normal councile houses don't cost that much - and any i've seen (from the outside!) sure don't look too luxurious! Sure some of the tenants keep theirs well, but they are all usually very small.

Why should travellers be treated any differently than any other group??


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## rainyday (22 Jun 2004)

> Why should travellers be treated any differently than any other group??



Please provide evidence that travellers ARE treated differently.


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## Protocol (22 Jun 2004)

*a short list*

Being given houses worth 330k by Clare County Council.

Not having to pay *income tax*, or not be chased after for income tax.  I can understand why not, I would be very scared of them if I was an Inspector of Taxes.

I love the way the left-wing/Irish Times/RTE section of society always defends the travellers.  Yet I bet they wouldn't like 20 caravans and associated scrap outside their front door.

Show me their P60s with their tax paid to society, and then I would be all for them getting extra help, etc.


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## Protocol (22 Jun 2004)

*here I go again*

By the way, the teacher in that short description didn't do anything wrong.

Though the kid was badly reared.

I will get into trouble for saying that.


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## mollser (22 Jun 2004)

*Re: here I go again*



> Please provide evidence that travellers ARE treated differently.



Did the council provide you with a nice 4 bed house worth €340k - down the country - prob €500k worth in Dublin?? Not me  

(am trying to find a link to that story, but was on page 3 of the Irish times a couple of weeks ago)


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## rainyday (23 Jun 2004)

*Re: here I go again*



> Being given houses worth 330k by Clare County Council.


This (on its own) does not show positive discrimination. You need to also show that similar houses are not given to others on the housing list in Clare.

Given that the Revenue have gone after Lawlor, Haughey and whole pile of serious heavyweight criminals in recent years, I really don't think they are running scared of travellers.


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## Protocol (23 Jun 2004)

*give, not take*

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

*Show me a travellers P60, their contribution to society*.

I suspect you'll be a long time trying to find one.

But maybe I'm wrong.


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## rainyday (23 Jun 2004)

*Re: give, not take*

And I've said before that I absolutely agree that travellers incomes should be taxed like the rest of us. I've no idea whether this happens in reality.


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