# No kids allowed to play on common area,is this normal?



## thedaras

Hi all, a friend has just moved into a house which has no back garden.
She has a five year old child.
The letting agent said having no back garden isnt a problem as there is a big green area in front of her house.However when she was out playing with her kid yesterday, the maintenence man said they had recieved complaints ,saying children were not allowed on the green.
This was not brought to her attention at the time and theres nothing in her contract stating this nor are there any signs on the green .
Anyone have any experience of this type of thing happening?
Can she get out of her lease based on the fact that she was told she could let him play on the green?
thanks in advance


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## redo

I'd ignore the complaints to be honest.  I mean, com 'on!


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## Smashbox

I would go further than this maintanance man for advice. I don't think anyone can be banned from anywhere but private ground ie. someones garden etc.

Talk to the agent, talk to the people overseeing the estate, but I wouldnt stop any child from playing in a common area.


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## thedaras

thanks for your replys..
It seems strange to have such a rule,but I did wonder if it was correct.
Or even if it could be that it can actually be part of a management company law/rule ..looking like it cant be.I hope...


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## redo

It the law/rule would probably be discriminatory based on age.


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## sparkeee

let the kids play.


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## WHAT'SFREE?

Just my two cents worth... But what about children (not necesarily your friends') playing on common areas, but in the act are destroying expensive planting/landscaping, causing damage to cars by kicking balls and playing chasing with sticks in their hands, climbing railings (falling from which would presumably result in some sort of insurance claim - which would increase residents' management fees), running in & out of carparks slamming and damaging security doors in their wake...

Trying to discourage "playing" in common areas is not necessarily just based on crankiness!


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## Guest128

WHAT'SFREE? said:


> Trying to discourage "playing" in common areas is not necessarily just based on crankiness!



Interesting one, I was about to give out about your post but you do raise some good points. 
At the same time you must let kids be kids, I cant imagine being told back in the day to not play outside! 
What else are these common areas there for...old ladies tea parties with opera music??



WHAT'SFREE? said:


> playing chasing with sticks in their hands



LOL, God forbid!


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## thedaras

WHAT'SFREE? said:


> Just my two cents worth... But what about children (not necesarily your friends') playing on common areas, but in the act are destroying expensive planting/landscaping, causing damage to cars by kicking balls and playing chasing with sticks in their hands, climbing railings (falling from which would presumably result in some sort of insurance claim - which would increase residents' management fees), running in & out of carparks slamming and damaging security doors in their wake...
> 
> Trying to discourage "playing" in common areas is not necessarily just based on crankiness!


 Think you may have missed my point?
My question was,is it normal practice not to allow kids to play in common areas,regardless of the reasons..
Also should she have been told this before she moved in with a kid?
Also should there be notice of this in the contract or a sign on the green?
I will leave the debate of kids being allowed to play and damageing things to someone else..


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## cleverclogs7

oh yes i know how it feels.before i moved into this house i rented a house with no back yard,just a little back area to hang up the washing.the side area had grass and the maintance guy wasnt impressed when my girls played.they were not noisy.just the usual girls chatter.i paid no attention to the maintance guy and left a few months later.if the landlord owns the land then its up to him weather or  not its permitted.


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## Guest128

thedaras said:


> Think you may have missed my point?
> My question was,is it normal practice not to allow kids to play in common areas,regardless of the reasons..
> Also should she have been told this before she moved in with a kid?
> Also should there be notice of this in the contract or a sign on the green?
> I will leave the debate of kids being allowed to play and damageing things to someone else..



I would say its not normal. Take a look at [broken link removed] from Dublin City Council, especially the "Design Issues" section which begins with "Open space needs to be landscaped with a diverse range of households in mind...."


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## becky

I live in an estate with some common ground (including a small pnd) which we share with another development.

At the begining the mangment comapny kept the spaces separate but the fence was always being torn down (which looked awful).  Common sense prevailed and access is now allowed by foot.

These eveings there's a good few kids of various ages out on bikes, kicking a football, playing cricket etc.  A few adults are usually sitting on a bench keeping an eye on them, which I suppose helps keep some order.

Its so nice to see and neighbours are getting to know each other.


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## thedaras

cleverclogs7 said:


> oh yes i know how it feels.before i moved into this house i rented a house with no back yard,just a little back area to hang up the washing.the side area had grass and the maintance guy wasnt impressed when my girls played.they were not noisy.just the usual girls chatter.i paid no attention to the maintance guy and left a few months later.if the landlord owns the land then its up to him weather or not its permitted.


 

cleverclogs,there is no area at all for hanging up washing or any type of yard.Its a terreced house,2 up 2 down with car park space outside ,with a big green area to the front.(funnily enough its in Bray)
So its a comunal area ,not owned be the landlord.
It just seems weird that so many kids live in the estate but apparently cant play on the green area,when they have no back gardens.
|Thanks for your response..


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## thedaras

FLANDERS` said:


> I would say its not normal. Take a look at [broken link removed] from Dublin City Council, especially the "Design Issues" section which begins with "Open space needs to be landscaped with a diverse range of households in mind...."


 
Thanks for that FLANDERS,very interesting..
Id say this estate is designed for childless couples or single people,however with the downturn it seems that people with kids are now moving in,as theres loads of kids there now,with no facilities,no back gardens and now not allowed play on the green.


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## thedaras

becky said:


> I live in an estate with some common ground (including a small pnd) which we share with another development.
> 
> At the begining the mangment comapny kept the spaces separate but the fence was always being torn down (which looked awful). Common sense prevailed and access is now allowed by foot.
> 
> These eveings there's a good few kids of various ages out on bikes, kicking a football, playing cricket etc. A few adults are usually sitting on a bench keeping an eye on them, which I suppose helps keep some order.
> 
> Its so nice to see and neighbours are getting to know each other.


 
Yes i agree ,there was a guy sunbathing there on sunday,but if the maintenance man tells her she is not to have the child on the green,it will mean hes no where to play.they have no back garden.


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## Smashbox

What rights does the mainanance man have to tell anyone what to do? I would ask the crowd that owns the estate/houses.


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## cleverclogs7

Thedaras .thats sad.poor little kids,we seldom get nice weather and kids should be able to play on the grass near there home.  Hope everything works out.maybe a trip to the council in bray.they may be of help.


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## shesells

As a director of a management company where we have had problems with children playing and damaging plants etc the thing that strikes me is the the OP was playing with the child. Unsupervised children at play is a big no-no for insurance, safety and preservation reasons but I don't see why a supervised child would be a problem.

Is there more to this story than we know? Is it a managed estate? Council estate? Private estate with active residents association? From what we know it just doesn't make sense.


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## onq

thedaras said:


> ... the maintenence man said they had recieved complaints ,saying children were not allowed on the green...



The maintenance man better check the planning permission and see what category the open space falls under.
If as I suspect it is Public Open Space, it seem entirely appropriate that children should play there.
However in these past ten or fifteen "monied" years, a certain amount of materialism and snobbery seems to have entered Irish society.
In some circles, having children seems to be like having a large German car - just something you accrete to increase your social standing.
Its the old "seen but not heard" attitude to the child, which is a shame - don't let the view of people like that limit your friend's child in his formative years.
I agree with the "supervised" play position because in shared surface parking and recreational areas it can be all too easy to miss a small child when a car is reversing for example.
Vehicular hazard is exacerbated by the fact that few if any Public Open Spaces are enclosed by railings or fences, things that used to be de rigeur in housing developments before the 20th century.
Mind you, the railings were originally intended to limit access by the poor and were not there increase a child's safety per se.


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## thedaras

shesells said:


> As a director of a management company where we have had problems with children playing and damaging plants etc the thing that strikes me is the the OP was playing with the child. Unsupervised children at play is a big no-no for insurance, safety and preservation reasons but I don't see why a supervised child would be a problem.
> 
> Is there more to this story than we know? Is it a managed estate? Council estate? Private estate with active residents association? From what we know it just doesn't make sense.


 
It wasnt the child that was the problem,and he was with his mother playing a game,it was, according to the maintenence man the fact that no children are allowed on the green.ie; I dont think it was a personal thing towards the mother or the child rather just a rule..for all.

She has rented the house through a letting agency,its not a council estate .
 I do know there is a management company who do the maintenence etc.its a big place with one two and three bedroomed houses some have back gardens.
The guy next door to her owns his house and also has a child and he has said he never heard anything about not allowing kids to play on the green.

She said the guy came up to her and said there were complaints and that she wasnt to be on the green with her child.
She is young and has only been living there a week,so unless as you say it doesnt make sense,maybe the maintenence guy is a bit strange? or bullying her?
She was in contact with the letting agency and they say to ignore him,but its a bit much having someone say you cant do something and then ignore it,shes not the type to challange authority.
BTW; could it happen that it is correct that kids are not allowed play on a green(with their parents)
Should she be told who complained? and the nature of the complaint\?


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## thedaras

onq said:


> The maintenance man better check the planning permission and see what category the open space falls under.
> If as I suspect it is Public Open Space, it seem entirely appropriate that children should play there.
> However in these past ten or fifteen "monied" years, a certain amount of materialism and snobbery seems to have entered Irish society.
> In some circles, having children seems to be like having a large German car - just something you accrete to increase your social standing.
> Its the old "seen but not heard" attitude to the child, which is a shame - don't let the view of people like that limit your friend's child in his formative years.
> I agree with the "supervised" play position because in shared surface parking and recreational areas it can be all too easy to miss a small child when a car is reversing for example.
> Vehicular hazard is exacerbated by the fact that few if any Public Open Spaces are enclosed by railings or fences, things that used to be de rigeur in housing developments before the 20th century.
> Mind you, the railings were originally intended to limit access by the poor and were not there increase a child's safety per se.


 
You know what ,,I really enjoyed reading that post.very well put and very interesting...
I just feel so sorry for her,esp now with the sun shining and no back garden and the kid looking out at the green today .she wouldnt bring him onto the green today as shes a compliant type.its sad to think that this kind of rule can( but im not sure if its a real rule at all),be enforced.Thats why Im on here trying to get a definitive answer or see has anyone had a similar issue.
Thanks


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## extopia

The "maintenance man" probably has no authority. And in fact, he has a vested interest in keeping common areas used as little as possible, keeping maintenance to a minimum. Just ignore him.


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## shesells

thedaras said:


> It wasnt the child that was the problem,and he was with his mother playing a game,it was, according to the maintenence man the fact that no children are allowed on the green.ie; I dont think it was a personal thing towards the mother or the child rather just a rule..for all.
> 
> She has rented the house through a letting agency,its not a council estate .
> I do know there is a management company who do the maintenence etc.its a big place with one two and three bedroomed houses some have back gardens.
> The guy next door to her owns his house and also has a child and he has said he never heard anything about not allowing kids to play on the green.
> 
> She said the guy came up to her and said there were complaints and that she wasnt to be on the green with her child.
> She is young and has only been living there a week,so unless as you say it doesnt make sense,maybe the maintenence guy is a bit strange? or bullying her?
> She was in contact with the letting agency and they say to ignore him,but its a bit much having someone say you cant do something and then ignore it,shes not the type to challange authority.
> BTW; could it happen that it is correct that kids are not allowed play on a green(with their parents)
> Should she be told who complained? and the nature of the complaint\?



First thing I would do is get in contact with the management agents for the development to suss out what the definitive position is. Only then can she know whether this is a rule or not.

As for the basis of a rule, like I say we have rules about supervision, not about where kids can play. The only time I can see us changing that is if we had to lay fresh grass/seed and leave it time to establish.


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## Bronte

shesells said:


> Unsupervised children at play is a big no-no for insurance, safety and preservation reasons but I don't see why a supervised child would be a problem.
> 
> .


 Is this where we are at as a society? We should wrap them up in cotton wool, insure them for every eventuality and not allow them to play in case they damage a plant.


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## shesells

I said safety and insurance before preservation! I've seen kids fall out of trees, had a huge dent in my car door from kids pushing bikes through parked cars and leaning against the car door, had several near misses with little kids running out into the road between cars, and over €1000 of damage was done to plants here last year. Not to mention the grass dug up by bikes being ridden across wet grass! Problem is these kids are usually tenants so their parents don't have to worry about increased management fees to fix it all!

And so we ask parents to supervise their children at play. What's so wrong in that!


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## mro

thedaras said:


> the maintenence man said they had recieved complaints ,saying children were not allowed on the green.



Just a thought, but if she has just moved in, maybe the complaints were because people didnt recognise her and know she lived in the estate and the maintenance man may have just said that to her to discourage her from being there......Personally i think it is awful if kids cant play outside their own house with their parents (and i have no kids) .


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## Yorrick

In every complex there are people who were never children. When they were born they were 45.
Don't pay any attention to these whingers and let the kid play


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## Bronte

shesells said:


> I said safety and insurance before preservation! I've seen kids fall out of trees, had a huge dent in my car door from kids pushing bikes through parked cars and leaning against the car door, had several near misses with little kids running out into the road between cars, and over €1000 of damage was done to plants here last year. !


 
Well if the planners allowed estates that were only planned properly there wouldn't be half the problems.  I can understand parents supervising younger children but older children need to be able to run free and fall out of a few trees too.  I have a tall climbing frame instead of a tree specifically so my kids can climb.  They need to learn this skill and one day one of them is going to fall but that's life.


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## onq

thedaras said:


> <snip>
> The guy next door to her owns his house and also has a child and he has said he never heard anything about not allowing kids to play on the green.
> <snip>
> She was in contact with the letting agency and they say to ignore him
> <snip>
> Should she be told who complained? and the nature of the complaint\?



She may have spoken with the wrong people.
Maintenance men may be simply trying to prevent "damage" to the planted area - some of them take pride in their work, some of them simply don't want to do any more than they have to.
Letting agents will not become involved unless they absolutely have to.
The planner can confirm the status of the open space in the scheme.
The management company can confirm if they have put in place a "no kids playing policy".
Your friend should also look around and see if there is a designated kids play area in the plans for the scheme and check and see if its been installed.

HTH



onq


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## shesells

Again I say, check with the management *agent* - they can clarify the official position.


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## John Rambo

ONQ is probably correct...there's little point in speaking to "the help" in respect of an issue such as this. Speak to the management company. And if you don't get an answer your happy with, raise the matter at the AGM. As someone who lives in a gated community (and doesn't have kids) I prefer not to see kids playing in among cars etc. But if they want to play on the communal green then they should be allowed to do so. In this era of Playstation 3's and clinically obese kids we should be encouraging them to play outside. In fact, without meaning to sound like an oul fella, I remember the good old days when older guys living in the neighbourhood used to join in with our rugby/football games as the sun went down and my Mum demanded I come back in! Good times...


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## shesells

John Rambo you make two errors in your post.

1 - she needs to check with the management *agent*. These are the people responsible for the day to day running of the dvelopment.

2 - as a tenant she has no right to attend the AGM. Only owners are entitled to do so. She can request her landlord raises it but she herself is not entitled to attend as a resident.


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## John Rambo

shesells said:


> John Rambo you make two errors in your post.
> 
> 1 - she needs to check with the management *agent*. These are the people responsible for the day to day running of the dvelopment.
> 
> 2 - as a tenant she has no right to attend the AGM. Only owners are entitled to do so. She can request her landlord raises it but she herself is not entitled to attend as a resident.


 
I think you're being a tad pedantic. As Treasurer on our Residents Committee I work closely with the management agent so I'm familiar with the distinction. If someone wants to "speak to the management company", they speak to the management agent.

Similarly, I can't speak for other developments but nobody is asked to produce the deeds to their property at our AGM...I doubt there's anything stopping the OP from attending the AGM and raising a query in respect of this issue.


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## MandaC

John Rambo said:


> ONQ is probably correct...there's little point in speaking to "the help" in respect of an issue such as this. Speak to the management company. And if you don't get an answer your happy with, raise the matter at the AGM. As someone who lives in a gated community (and doesn't have kids) I prefer not to see kids playing in among cars etc. But if they want to play on the communal green then they should be allowed to do so. In this era of Playstation 3's and clinically obese kids we should be encouraging them to play outside. In fact, without meaning to sound like an oul fella, I remember the good old days when older guys living in the neighbourhood used to join in with our rugby/football games as the sun went down and my Mum demanded I come back in! Good times...



Agree that I hate seeing kids running about through car parks.

Ironically I saw this yesterday in my mams.  Went there about 9.30 and saw two of the older ex-residents (now visiting their parents) play football with their children and the new children within the Estate.  It was like a kid fest, I think they even came from the estate across the road because the "big boys" were out and they were running their hearts out trying to impress the adults, who were in goal and coaching the kids.  My mam said they had been running around  out there for 3 hours. I'd say they slept like logs.  Memories indeed......reminded me what a great area I grew up in.


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## shesells

John Rambo said:


> I think you're being a tad pedantic. As Treasurer on our Residents Committee I work closely with the management agent so I'm familiar with the distinction. If someone wants to "speak to the management company", they speak to the management agent.
> 
> Similarly, I can't speak for other developments but nobody is asked to produce the deeds to their property at our AGM...I doubt there's anything stopping the OP from attending the AGM and raising a query in respect of this issue.


 
It's not about being pedantic it's about being accurate. One of the biggest problems with managed developments is that so many people don't understand the difference between the company and the agent. 

As for the AGM. Only registered members or their proxies are permitted to attend, That's basic company law. We do check at our AGM that the attendees are the registered owners. Everything has to be above board.


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## mathepac

John Rambo said:


> I think you're being a tad pedantic. As Treasurer on our Residents Committee I work closely with the management agent so I'm familiar with the distinction. If someone wants to "speak to the management company", they speak to the management agent.
> 
> Similarly, I can't speak for other developments but nobody is asked to produce the deeds to their property at our AGM...I doubt there's anything stopping the OP from attending the AGM and raising a query in respect of this issue.


I wonder is there some confusion here.

A Residents' Committee / Association will have their own set of rules about who may attend and vote, whereas a management company must comply with company law, as pointed out by shesells above.

Any issues OP's friend has relating to common areas or the property itself need to be addressed directly with the  landlord, or in a dispute between landlord and tenant, with the PRTB, not with the "maintenance man", the managing agent or the management company.


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## JoeB

A rule about 'no kids playing' would be very difficult to implement.. how would it be worded? Who would decide what was play and what wasn't? I suppose you could ban children below a certain age from being in the area at all.. but would this be legal?, and again how would it be implemented in practice?, children often don't have IDs... and what about babies?, they'd be under any age you choose.. so maybe you'd be banning children over three but under fourteen?.. sounds quite tricky to be honest.

Are open spaces in managed developments public land or not?, if they are open to the public then I'd say children must be allowed play, unless there are rules banning everybody from the space.. i.e 'no walking on the grass'

Some posters say they do have rules that ban children or playing.. how are the rules worded?


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## onq

If the planning permission specified the open space as requiring high leves of planting to give additional amenity to residents there may be an implication that in such a case, you could not reasonably allow children to play amongst planted bed and so forth, "ruining" the visualt amenity.

However, in many councils amenity spaces for children have received high priority to allow for the "densification" required of new developments (by the Council) and so you can make an argument that play areas may be assumed to exist in every open space unless some other accommodation has been required by or reacehd with the Council.

If the OP has checekd it out and feels the current practice does not reflect the permission, then she can call in the planning enforcement section to investigate.

If the planning inspector upholds her complaint then the management company/agent/pet dog can go hump. They cannot re-write the planning permission.


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## skerriesbear

I agree kids here play football all the time.  It does not matter to their parents that they damage plants and landscaping nor that they are here from school finishing till dark which is now at 9 and will be later as the Summer approaches.  Also, most of the kids are neighborhood kids who do not even live here!!! So much for peace and quiet and enjoying your space.


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## fobs

skerriesbear said:


> I agree kids here play football all the time.  It does not matter to their parents that they damage plants and landscaping nor that they are here from school finishing till dark which is now at 9 and will be later as the Summer approaches.  Also, most of the kids are neighborhood kids who do not even live here!!! So much for peace and quiet and enjoying your space.



If you want peace and quiet you live in your own gated property! People who choose to live in a development with families can't expect peace and quiet all the time. Victor Mildrew springs to mind!


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## Rois

+1 fobs 

I live in an estate with lots of green areas.  And, while I dont have any children myself, I love seeing all the local kids out playing on the green areas.  Don't know why any Body (housing association, council, management company) would want to deprive children of that pleasure.


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## sustanon

I read these posts to remind myself why I left Ireland. Management companies, Management Agents, Car Parking spaces, "Common Areas" no back yards, 2 up 2 down, maintenance men, pesky children, AGMs, tennants Vs owners, mind the landscaping now...

sounds like a scene from a Monty Python sketch. The country has lost the run of itself. 

Children playing is a gift. If you can't handle families then don't live near them. Money spent on a good quality swing set is better than box hedging any day.


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## liaconn

fobs said:


> If you want peace and quiet you live in your own gated property! People who choose to live in a development with families can't expect peace and quiet all the time. Victor Mildrew springs to mind!


 
I agree to an extent, and love seeing children playing on the Green in front of my apartment. However, the parents on my estate are considerate and you don't see kids out there beyond 8.30 - 9.00 or before about 10.00 am on a Sat or Sun morning. 
I think if you 'choose to live in a development' (unfair comment, most people have no choice) there has to be give and take on both sides - people without children have to be reasonably tolerant of a certain amount of noise and intrustion, people with children have to be reasonably considerate re ensuring their kids aren't bothering the neighbours.


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## ajapale

Similar question posted today.
Can Mgt Co rule that children are not allowed play in gated apartment complex.


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## Yorrick

What about neighbours bothering the kids ?


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