# Garda wife: 'There are weeks I can't put food on the table'



## plant43

Is there anyone else following this story in the IT

[broken link removed]

Something doesn't quite add up here. I ran the figures presented through one of the tax calculators and it indicates that even after pension, usc etc.. are taken out that the net pay is 3600 euro per month. Yes, the mortgage is on the high side but even after that is paid there is still 2200 euro left over which I would assume would allow a family to live comfortably.

I think there is some other debt that is not being disclosed.


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## Wishes

Too many of these stories pulling at the heart strings.  With a surplus of over 2k per month, there is something clearly not right.

Being the skeptic that I am are these stories on the level?


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## pc7

Have to agree that something doesn't seem right, is there other personal debt, why have health insurance if you can't feed yourself.  This coupled with the out of work 'actor' yesterday all over the radio and news doesn't sit right with me (he was talking of the gym etc).


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## orka

Yes, I agree that there's something else there as the figures don't look quite right. 

The other thing that hopped off the page at me was continuing to pay €75 a week (€4K pa) on health insurance when she says there are some days when the whole family eats nothing but cornflakes.  If they are down to €109 a week to pay for everything after mortgage and utilities, €75 would make a huge difference.  Our public health system is not THAT bad particularly for their 4 children.  As spending for the good of their health, the €75 would be better spent on food than health insurance which may or may not be needed.


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## Wishes

Also the manic anticipation of sending children to University.  In my mind, if you are living day to day you are not thinking of the days when your kids are heading to Uni.  Its one day at a time.

Agree, no need for the expensive health insurance.

Heard the actor speaking about stealing food.  Still trying to get my head around that one!

There was somebody on the radio yesterday from the SVP speaking about delivering dried food to a household.  He went onto explain a heartbreaking story of a child getting excited over a box of porridge.  Again its getting near to Christmas and we are barraged with these stories.    

On another note, seems to be quite a lot of these open letters appearing on the newspaper desks, politicians facebook pages and open forums etc.  Who's to say what's real and whats not?


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## vandriver

€109 per week after bills PLUS child benefit of over €500 a month PLUS €500 a month after tax not on his weekly pay slip.This along with cancelling the health insurance would amount way over €400 a week after bills and mortgage.
A touch of the poor mouth I think.


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## bugler

Funnily enough I earn very close to what that Garda earns. We are also a one income family. My rent is €300 less than what their mortgage costs, but for a smaller house.

I save €500-600 per month, we would have a take away or eat out regularly, we really don't watch our spending (I am not proud of that, we are trying to change), we own a 'nice enough' 2005 car (worth €4000 or so), we clear our credit card each month, and we are finanically secure and happy (long may it continue). 

Perhaps instead of MABS they could be referred to me, as clearly I possess the secrets to financial security (which is news to me!)

Presumably if a Garda *Sgt*'s family has these problems then a regular Garda's family must be utterly destitute.


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## Wishes

The Garda and the actor are living like Lords compared to me!  ~sob~

No wonder the banks are suspicious of debtors looking for loans to be rescheduled.

If most of these stories are a figment of somebody  or some groups imagination, well I must say they are making a pigs ear of the cause.


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## serotoninsid

This is nauseating!  He earns €65K a year?  I earn less than half that!



> The woman wrote that even though her eldest child got enough points to go to a prestigious college they couldn’t afford the fees


That's ridiculous!  The means is out there these days for people to do whatever they want to do.  'College' isn't necessarily such a great thing.  If I was to do it all over again, I would have worked and studied part time.  However, in the context of someone who says they have 'cornflakes days', this is utter nonsense!



> After tax, Universal Social Charge, pension, health insurance, mortgage and utility deductions, a typical weekly payslip shows a net payment of €109.


As someone has already pointed out - remove the health insurance - and that's it - problem solved.

In fairness, there are probably real cases of people in difficult circumstances - but this example is ridiculous!  Why would they even publish that?


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## DB74

Here's a more detailed article on the same couple

[broken link removed]

(This reproduces the original  article and Kathy Sheridan adds more detail afterwards) 

"How can this happen to a family with an annual income of about €75,000 gross (including overtime and allowances) last year?"

"They know that the €77.06 weekly rent allowance (designed to cover the cost of gardaí being obliged to live away from their home area), will probably be a target of the cuts." - I presume this is an extra payment on top of the €75K gross

"Not featured in the payslip is a payment of €500 a month, after tax, to cover unsocial hours. For Colm, this is compensation for six consecutive nights a month of 10-hour duty, plus Saturday and Sunday work."


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## Shivvers

On a serious note, the Irish Times says it has "established the facts to its satisfaction" in relation to this article. That just cannot be possible. No way.

If the wife is not working, then the husband would get her personal tax credit and he'd have an extended lower rate tax band, no?

He is on €75k. So with these extra credits, and taking into account the pension levy etc, he is on something like €3,700 a month.

The article doesn't mention how many kids they have, but they must have at least three including the older one who got into college and the unspecified "younger children". Let's assume she gets three childrens allowances a month. That's another €520.

so... their net income is about €4,200 a month. The mortgage is €1,400. Health insurance is a whopping €300. They have no other debts, allegedly.

That still leaves a very comfortable €2,500 a month to pay all bills, food etc. That's easy peasy stuff....... They must have huge debts they didn't tell the Irish Times about. There is no other way.

This article is an insult to the thousands of people who are genuinely suffering silently in demi-poverty.

The Irish Times has serious questions to answer over it....


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## terrysgirl33

It is a very odd article.  I don't doubt they are under pressure, but I don't think all the facts are there.  If they bought at the height of the boom, and her husband is over 50, did they not have a big deposit?  Because of this, I'm assuming they aren't in negative equity, so can they sell the house and move to a cheaper one?  An extra bedroom is nice, but if you can't afford it, you can't afford it.  

How many children and how old?  If the oldest has points for college, and wants to go, s/he can take a year out and work to raise the money for this (I'm assuming it is too late to get a job and raise the money now).  Ideally they wouldn't have to do this, but times have changed, and many people I know who have done something like this (for example, getting a job and studying at night) have ended up with a better education and a more realistic view of the world than people who sailed through school and college with no money worries.


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## DB74

Shivvers said:


> so... their net income is about €4,200 a month. The mortgage is €1,400. Health insurance is a whopping €300. They have no other debts, allegedly.
> 
> That still leaves a very comfortable €2,500 a month to pay all bills, food etc. That's easy peasy stuff....... They must have huge debts they didn't tell the Irish Times about. There is no other way.



Don't forget the extra €500 per month for unsociable hours which is "not featured in the payslip"


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## irishmoss

His utility bills are deducted at source by the CU budget scheme so that could mean all his bills (car tax everything) is paid before the net amount she gets.

I would also specualte that there is a CU payment deducted at source but if so this should have been disclosed


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## Nige

She can't afford to go to the doctor despite paying so much for health insurance? From my knowledge of the Garda health insurance is has excellent GP cover.


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## circle

It doesn't add up. School fees or hidden debts are the only other major costs I can think of that aren't covered.


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## dereko1969

Does Kathy Sheridan not have access to a calculator?

They're paying €4k a year on health insurance whilst having cornflake days? Utter madness.

They're spending €10k a year on "bills" paid through their Credit Union, do they have the heating on 24/7? Utter madness.

There's either something very pertinent not included here or the article is full of inaccuracies, or both. Perhaps school fees are included there but I can't think of what else.


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## Protocol

"Some years ago, they prudently joined the Garda credit union’s billpay scheme by which all their bills – including the mortgage – were calculated on a budget plan, and €528 a week deducted at source to pay them (identified as “St Raph BV” on the payslip)."

That's 2288 pm or 27,456 pa on all bills incl mortgage.

Taking off 1400 pm for the mortgage, leaves us with:

*So 888 pm on "all their bills", 10,656 pa, or 205 per week.*

My bills are:

Health ins = 143 pm
Car + house ins = 75 pm
Telecom + BB = 48 pm
Mobile = 40 pm
Elec = 45-50 pm

*That's 356 per month*

My other bills are 140 per month:
Oil = 800-900 pa
MPP = 100 pa
Life ins = 520 pa
TV licence = 160 pa

*I'm now at 496 pm.*

*How can they be paying 888 pm???*


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## Janet

There are also some issues of expectations vs. reality I think.  In the more detailed article linked she talks about needing €100 for a dishwasher repair.  While most people these days seem to think a dishwasher is a necessity, it's not really.  Wash the dishes by hand - isn't washing-up liquid cheaper than dishwasher tablets anyway (don't have a dishwasher so can't judge this one). It's only a small thing but there are presumably other similar aspects of life that could be looked at.  She should come on here and do the money makeover - I bet AAM could find ways to make her money go further.  

I do accept the point that people are stuck in difficult situations but at some point people do need to start being more realistic about what a necessity and what a luxury is.

Mind you, I can also think of healthier things to serve up than cornflakes but for the same price.


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## serotoninsid

I can only imagine that this is being 'bigged up' in anticipation of the budget - and to try to drum up some noise to ward off any moves against public sector pay, allowances, etc.


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## itsallwrong

Of course there are details they have omitted.
If he can't survive on that money he is lying his rear off on some details of
his circumstances.
Pity the media latch onto people in good jobs that could never manage their finances.
What about the masses who DO live on a lot less?

You can bet if you really look very closely at his case, there is plenty he could do to make things better.


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## bugler

Let's not go off on any tangents. This family should have enough to get by, plenty of families are making do with far less. That is the concern here. Whatever way the figures are being represented and tortured it is masking the truth.


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## DerKaiser

bugler said:


> Let's not go off on any tangents. This family should have enough to get by, plenty of families are making do with far less. That is the concern here. Whatever way the figures are being represented and tortured it is masking the truth.


 
Spot on bugler. There is a real story here and that is the lost art of household budgeting - I have no doubt that many families on reasonable incomes do find themselves in unpleasant situations from time to time because of their inability to manage the purse strings. 

It's disappointing that neither MABS nor the Irish Times seem to have any grasp on what needs to be done.

€1400pm is not an outrageous mortgage by the way (must be a tracker), it probably wouldn't be hard to find a family in similar circumstances paying a much higher mortgage or one paying the same mortgage on a lower income with no possibility of managing.  Why do the media always seem to pick questionable cases???


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## Janet

I'm also asking myself if MABS don't point out to people that they really need to live within their means, including giving tips on how to do that?  This woman seems to also have the justification behind her that MABS agreed with her figures, which is sort of bothering me, too.


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## STEINER

I find this story laughable.  Their income is more than sufficient to sustain a comfortable life.  We are not being given the full story. 

I have no kids.  My wife and I have had greatly reduced income for over 2 years now due to illness.  Our annual net income is 28.5k.  We have the same bills as everyone else and the same bills as when we had income of 65k+.  I am being totally honest when I say we are financially ok.  Out of our income, we pay mortgage of 14k, health insurance 2.5k, car costs 2k, mgmt fee 1.6k etc.  Excluding food and clothing, about 23k is spent.  We are not in arrears to anyone and have no loans.  We don't smoke and drink little.  We eat like any normal people.  We are able to dine out the odd time and take the occasional hotel break.  We have enough savings to pay our mortgage for 6 years.

I just refuse to believe that it is a struggle for a garda sargeant and family to survive on their income.  They can't afford to eat some days??  Its not credible at all.


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## ClaireM

Janet said:


> I'm also asking myself if MABS don't point out to people that they really need to live within their means, including giving tips on how to do that? This woman seems to also have the justification behind her that MABS agreed with her figures, which is sort of bothering me, too.


 
MABS don't usually comment on individual cases. I would strongly suspect that the woman is telling the journalist her version of what MABS told her. It may not reflect the actual advice given.


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## terrysgirl33

Conor_28 said:


> Two things here:1) If they bought seven years ago, chances are they're in serious negative equity so can't sell. 2) They have four kids, you would be doing very well to get a house in Dublin for two adults and four kids for €1000 a month.
> 
> There does seem to be a gap in the figures somewhere but let's be realistic.



I presume they owned a house before they moved here, so chances are they aren't in negative equity.  It doesn't say either way in the article.


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## Importer

Clearly, this Garda Sergeant "case" has been given media time to demonstrate how hard up a "typica" Garda Sergeant is and how they couldnt possibly afford to lose any allowances at budget time.
The cynical side of me is wondering who is behind this media outbreak
and whose vested interests are being promoted here.

In reality this is nonsense. Any family of six can live well on 75000 euro per year. As others have pointed out , a 1400 euro mortgage payment is well within the means of any individual on this type of salary. It is also well within the means of a family earning 20,000 less.

If this was a teacher on 35000 a year, with five dependants, who had purchased a family home at the height of the boom, then they would have my attention and my sympathy. This is not the case here.

Clearly the Garda has a spending problem rather than an income problem


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## oldnick

Yes, Mugga, you are right that middle Ireland is feeling much pain and frustration.

But what a rotten example to pick - a guy in a secure well-paid job with monthly mortgage that is roughly equal to the average rent for a 4 bed in Dublin.

And how angry must members of middle Ireland be reading this article when they have lost their jobs or earn half what this guy is or who are paying far more every month.


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## SarahMc

i





terrysgirl33 said:


> I presume they owned a house before they moved here, so chances are they aren't in negative equity.  It doesn't say either way in the article.



My wild guess is they never sold the original house and are topping up a BTL. 

Also all this talk about him getting another job, if they are so hard up, and why doesn't the wife re/enter the workforce? 

It's bull!


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## Dermot

It is either vested interests making their pre budget submission or chronically bad money managers and there will always be those. Take your pick.


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## ClubMan

Shivvers said:


> On a serious note, the Irish Times says it has "established the facts to its satisfaction" in relation to this article. That just cannot be possible. No way.


I seem to recall the yarn a while ago about the civil/public servant bloke  (with a Ph.D in mathematics) out west who could not afford food never mind the mortgage and other expenses. If I recall correctly the _Irish Times _and other media organs gave this story quite a bit of coverage. Only problem was that absolutely nobody was able to vouch for this bloke's existence. Obviously hard cases exist and some people are indeed struggling but I would also be inclined to treat this latest story with similar skepticism. It's a pity that the _Irish Times_ doesn't stick to trying to be a newspaper of record and skip the middle class lobbying/agenda setting (e.g. [broken link removed]). Stories like these give the real hard cases a bad name!

Update: so did anybody ever find _MP MacDohmnaill _or was this another one where we were supposed to take the _IT _on trust... Hmmmm.

[broken link removed]
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Ke...tarve-due-to-mortgage-payments-128582613.html
http://www.*****************.com/mp-macdhomnaill-a-tall-story-from-tralee.html


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## ClubMan

mugga said:


> the dishwashers broken down


Minor point in the greater scheme of things and one that has been mentioned by some people who commented on the original _IT _article but ... if somebody is strapped for €100 to fix the dishwasher then they would surely consider washing the crockery by hand for a while rather than running to Mummy to bail them out...


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## serotoninsid

Dermot said:


> It is either vested interests making their pre budget submission or chronically bad money managers and there will always be those. Take your pick.


We can only speculate here but my money is on the former.  I agree - there are any amount of bad money managers out there.  However, the I.T. must know what it is they are printing - and I suspect they know exactly what it is they are printing in this instance.  

I think that this is *EXACTLY* where any cuts should be made in the upcoming budget!

I live on less than half of what this guy earns - and I can say that I do so quite comfortably.  Somebody mentioned that we all have to cut our cloth to suit our measure - and public servants with inflated salaries will have to do the very same!

Again, we are speculating - but someone mentioned that a second BTL property being topped up would be likely in this case - I think that's the most likely scenario here.  That's unfortunate - however, I don't think that this scenario (and lets face it, there are 1000's on such salaries with BTL baggage) should be used to justify preventing the Government from the reigning in of public sector salaries (at these higher grades) which are not only out of kilter with what we as a country can afford - they are also off the mark when like for like comparisons are made with our european counterparts.


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## Marion

There is much more to this story than has been revealed.

What is stopping the spouse from working to improve the financial situation? I'm not clear on this point.


Marion


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## croker

This is probably why the Government is slow to tackle the high earners in the public sector because they're being told these kinds of stories and then think - ok we can't touch those guys. Most of us on here would agree >€70k is a high earner..
Scratch below the surface and this country is really in a mess.. and we've no one to take charge of the situation and do something about it!


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## thedaras

I'm clutching at straws here-because the story doesn't add up .
So I reckon it's reverse psychology .in that if the idea was for us to feel sorry for this family .when it's had the completely opposite effect , them it's worked!
I vote to give the frontline public servants an increment on top of the other increment, so they don't have garda sargents kids been fed cornflakes! 
Release the hounds.
If we are to be fed story's like this one, then at least give us all the figures! 
As another poster mentioned there are many middle income families who are struggling .This did nothing for their case 
In my opinion the article is
kis like something from a transition year magazine, but less informative.


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## Brendan Burgess

Charlie Weston wrote a very good opinion piece in the Irish Independent 

A Garda earning €75,000 and living on cornflakes? I doesn't add up

Well done to all you finance experts!


> Finance experts calculated yesterday that earnings as high as that should leave a lot more to live on than €100 a week.
> ....The monthly mortgage payments are indeed high but even  after that is paid there should still be €2,200 left over which would  allow a family to live comfortably, according to figures put together by  accountants on the www.askaboutmoney.com website.



Would anyone like to do a comprehensive piece  debunking the story?  You should take into account Kathy Sheridan's update on the figures.


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## bugler

I found the MABS budget troubling.

€336 pcm "Other Expenditure".
€240 pcm on "clothing/footwear".
€172 pcm "Telephone/Other utilities".

It doesn't do much to dissaude me that even though the incomings seem to be much less than €75k (this was a figure quoted for the previous year, not for this one) there is a huge budgeting problem here.

And worse, MABS did not seem interested or capable of addressing it.


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## Janet

Somebody pointed out above that MABS don't comment on individual cases and that it is most likely that it is this woman's interpratation of what she was told that is being used.  

I do think that a large part of many people's issues with money is the mis-match between the reality of their income and their expectations of the kind of life that is "normal".


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## Brendan Burgess

I would leave MABS out of this unless they comment themselves, which they would not. 

I think that MABS is realistic and would have sorted her expectations out fairly quickly.

There are many MABS advisors and she may have got a poor one, but it's much more likely that she is misquoting MABS.

Brendan


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## DB74

Unless a cut in Gross Pay has been applied (and AFAIK there have been no cuts to Gross Pay in the public service from 2011 to 2012) then the figure of €75,000 still stands as the Gross Pay for 2012


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## orka

DB74 said:


> Unless a cut in Gross Pay has been applied (and AFAIK there have been no cuts to Gross Pay in the public service from 2011 to 2012) then the figure of €75,000 still stands as the Gross Pay for 2012


His gross pay this year as a year 6 sergeant is 51,034. The rest is made up of allowances (which probably haven't changed since last year - yet) and overtime (which could have changed quite a bit).

..

I do have a lot of sympathy for the family - it is very easy for spending to increase to match increasing income but it is very difficult to go back the other way, especially when you have children.


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## bugler

Brendan Burgess said:


> I would leave MABS out of this unless they comment themselves, which they would not.
> 
> I think that MABS is realistic and would have sorted her expectations out fairly quickly.
> 
> There are many MABS advisors and she may have got a poor one, but it's much more likely that she is misquoting MABS.
> 
> Brendan



The IT article goes to the trouble of laying a lengthy schedule out, which it directly claims is that of MABS. While this story generally would not inspire much confidence in the journalistic standards of the IT, I find it hard to believe the IT would be looking at a generic piece of paper and taking it for granted that it came from MABS. That would also involve considerable deceit on behalf of whoever was claiming it was from MABS.



> Now, the family’s total weekly income, including child benefit, is €807  net, according to Mabs. The following is its projected weekly  expenditure, according to a schedule prepared by the same agency :



It doesn't state if this is a statement of what they are currently spending, or what they might reasonably be expected to spend.


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## wbbs

MABS will document what they are taking in and what they are spending, they will advise where cutbacks can and should be made but cannot compel anyone to make them, the client is responsible for what they choose to spend their disposable income on.   It's fascinating what some people consider essentials!


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## dereko1969

orka said:


> In fairness to KS, that was mentioned. That was the only mention of 75K.


 
Yes but today she's implying that there has been a reduction in the €75k that was not implied in the original piece.


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## orka

Brendan Burgess said:


> Would anyone like to do a comprehensive piece debunking the story?


This isn't a debunking as such but I've had a good look at the income side as this is where the problem has arisen.

Looking at the income side, the MABS income figure of 807 net looks about right if they are just looking at his basic salary (51K) plus children’s allowance (I can’t get it to match exactly but it looks like they either have 3 or 4 children getting children’s allowance – there is mention of a ‘large’ family which I suppose is at least 4 children). 

A couple of things worth commenting on:


Increments have cushioned the impact of levies and paycuts a bit – year 6 on the sergeant’s scale is 10% higher than the starting pay.
The family has probably lost one child benefit in the past year if they have a child who has finished his leaving certificate.
The marginal tax rate for public sector workers at these levels of pay is about 62% - ie he only keeps 38% of his gross additional income (compared to 48% for a private sector worker). [As an aside, this is something the government should bear in mind when looking at the savings to be gained from removing allowances – they may only achieve a net 40%-ish of their topline number...]
Yes, he gets a good pension but that doesn’t help his family today – I’m sure he would sacrifice some comfort in retirement to provide for his family today (and this is a choice a lot of private sector workers are making – short-sightedly perhaps but often out of desperation but at least they have the choice).
I looked back at previous sergeant pay scales (as they went up in 2006-2008 and then down...) and put them into taxcalc’s prior years calculator. Obviously a lot depends on how much overtime he did but I reckon the family has gone from a peak (2008-2009) monthly income of 4.6K-5.1K down to 3.5K-3.9K. That’s a big drop. 
Yes, there are money management issues that need to be addressed and in the grand scheme of things they are not badly off and if they had always had nothing but this level of income, they would probably be fine. But if you take away fixed expenses like the mortgage, utilities, house insurance – their ‘living’ income has probably almost halved – that is a lot to have to cope with, particularly with school-going children involved. 

I think the article was poorly approached and structured – there are some valid points to be made about how/why people will struggle (hopefully just for a short time while they adjust to the lower income) but this has been completely and utterly lost in the controversy surrounding the article.


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## DerKaiser

Brendan Burgess said:


> Would anyone like to do a comprehensive piece  debunking the story?  You should take into account Kathy Sheridan's update on the figures.



I think we can argue on the income side all we like, it's the annual expenditure side that really interests me (I've multiplied the weekly figures by 52):

_Mortgage (interest only): €14,560 
Food/Housekeeping: €10,400 
Transports costs: €6,630 
Other Expenditure: €4,368 
Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms): €3900 
Medical costs (insurance): €3,808 
Clothing/Footwear: €3,120 
Credit Union: €2,600 
Telephone/Other utilities: €2,236 
Electricity Usage: €1,300 
Heat/Fuel Usage: €1,300 
Repairs & Maintenance: €1,040 
Mortgage Protection Insurance: €780
Buildings/Contents Insurance: €364 
Waste Charges: €260 
TV licence: €200 

Total: €56,874_

First off, I don't think their spending is outrageous by any standards - it's middle class spending. I fail to see, however, why they could not comfortably live on less.  

A number of issues need to be answered:
1. They listed €4,000 p.a. under additional pension - why not stop this?
2. 'Other expenditure' of €4,368 - This really needs to be broken down
3. Transport costs at €6,630 look high - car maintenance including insurance for 2, tax and 10,000 miles petrol should cost no more than €3,500
4. Having medical insurance costing €4k would surely be seen as a luxury a family living on cornflakes could do without - Quotes of less than €1.5k are available for 2 adults and 3 kids
5. Clothing and footwear of €3,120 is possible if you buy brands, but on the high side for a family looking to economise
6. There's no explanation of whether the Credit union is savings or loan repayment - if it's a loan, what was it for?
7. How is the telephone €2236? Broadband, phone & TV bundles are available for just over €800 p.a. Smart bill phones for each family member could bring the cost up to over €2k - but that seems again like excessive luxury if you are on the breadline.

Finally, and most importantly, €10,400 managed correctly should feed a family of 5 without any skimping.

Don't get me wrong, I do not object to their lifestyle and can see how they would spend €1,000pw, but there's plenty of areas you'd tighten up on if the money was a bit tighter, you certainly wouldn't be rushing to SVdeP.


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## itsallwrong

Tell you what.
Let Mr. Guard live on what I do.
Me and my family would be very happy to live on €75k a year.
He shold be given a smack and shown what tens of thousands of people live on.
Time wasting reporting.
€240 spent on clothes and footwear a month !
Give me a break....


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## Protocol

DerKaiser said:


> A number of issues need to be answered:
> 1. They listed €4,000 p.a. under additional pension - why not stop this?
> 4. Having medical insurance costing €4k would surely be seen as a luxury a family living on cornflakes could do without - Quotes of less than €1.5k are available for 2 adults and 3 kids


 
The pension levy is compulsory.

Unless they are referring to AVCs???

The Gardai have their own health insurer, maybe it's compulsory for Guards to join it?


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## ajapale

Protocol said:


> The Gardai have their own health insurer, maybe it's compulsory for Guards to join it?



Its not compulsory to join *St. Paul's Garda Medical Aid Society*




> SUBSCRIPTION RATES FROM 1ST JANUARY 2012.
> 1. Comprehensive Scheme: Subscription before Deduction from pay/pension
> .......................................................Tax Relief....................                         After Tax Relief
> Single Adult....................................... €32.21 p.w.................. €25.77 p.w.
> Couple...............................................€64.42 p.w...................€51.54 p.w.
> Couple with children under 18..................€77.98 p.w. ................€62.38 p.w.
> Widow/er with children under 18..............€45.77 p.w.................. €36.62 p.w.
> 
> 2. Over 18 Scheme: .............................                €13.56 p.w per dependent..... €10.85 p.w.
> To a maximum of ...................................                     €27.12..............................                          €21.70 p.w. per family
> 
> 3. Over 23 up to 27yrs Scheme............... €32.21 p.w ...........................                     €25.77 p.w.
> The Society claims the Income Tax Relief element of the Subscription direct from the Revenue Commissioners.


----------



## Dermot

The AVC's is probably the answer and as the name suggests they are voluntary but attract tax relief so is the €4000 p.a gross or after tax. There is 41% tax relief plus a PRSI relief on the contributions  The health insurance indicates that one of the children is over 18 otherwise if the child was not over 18 it would be €550 less. I just researched this on the internet.  Health insurance is completely optional as it is for everyone else.


----------



## Clamball

I think this Garda's spouse is suffering from an inability to budget. 

It would appear that with the deductions from her husband's salary at source of €528 she is looking at her budget as being what is left over plus children's allowance.  "Her" income has been severely cut to €109.22 plus the children's allowance and she now cannot budget.

She has rightly gone to MABS but perhaps she has not sat down fully and looked at every element of her expenditure and looked at the expenditure for savings.  She just sees that the government has cut "her" portion of the wages and she is suffering badly.  

I would recommend that she and her husband look at this jointly.

1 *Stop the deductions at source so they can feel more in-control of their expenditure.*  Her husband should look at his pay-slip and stop every "optional" deduction.  Social club, charity, AVC, Gym, etc. if they are there and stop them straight away.  If the Garda’s wife sees €800 on wages slip she may feel a lot better.

2.  Then *look at net income and decide how to spend it.*  Many of the fixed expenditures are listed above, mortgage, Mortgage, Food, Transport, Education, Clothing/footwear, Telephone, Television, Waste, Broadband, Heat, Electricity, Insurance, Car Tax, Household Charge, Car Insurance, House Insurance, Life Insurance (Mortgage).

3.  Each of these *fixed expenditures should be evaluated* and re-costed and reduced where possible. Mortgage has gone interest only so they are making a start.  And for each of these they need to be really realistic, do they need a second car, where is cheaper to shop for clothes, shoes, household goods, telephone.  Do they need smart phones, mobiles, etc.  Can the health insurance be reduced to the minimum; they need to eat healthily to keep healthy.  Eating should take priority over future potential health issues.

4  Now they should *look at discretionary spending* and determine where it is important for them as a family to spend and where they can make savings; this is Credit Union, Repairs, Maintenance, and Other as listed above.  Are these GP visits, medicine, dentists (orthodontic work) charity contributions, school payments, sport, gifts, parties?  I think with kids especially as they become teens it is a constant list of hand-outs, needs, requirements etc.

5 From the savings in 3 & 4 above they should *start their rainy day funds*, emergency pot of money, exceptional spends, car replacement, etc.

6 Then *the future*, reduction of income plans, more tax plans, water charge, house tax etc etc.  They now have another adult in the house and he/she will need to be able to help by either reduction in expenditure or by earning to add to the available pool of money.

If this lady considers it her job and responsibility to save money for her family, make lunches, grow vegetables, walk rather than drive, look for bargains, barter, etc etc then she will feel more in charge of her families future and current costs and will know instantly what can be cut and saved and how to have fun and live a life on less.  

With 18 years+ left on the mortgage and her husband over 50 and perhaps approaching retirement they both need to start planning for the future and living for the present.  If they can make savings can they go back to paying their mortgage and eventually be debt free.  The two negatives they have at the moment is that they have a large mortgage and large outputs with the size of their family of 6.  So it is not going to be easy and it is going to cause them pain as they move from a middle class status to frugal living but it is possible.  

There is a lot she can do and with her husbands and children’s help she is in a position to make great savings and still live well and put lots of healthy nutritious meals on the table and have an enjoyable family life.   The solution will lie with her not the government.  She needs to consider it her full time job to manage the money they have and manage it well.


----------



## DerKaiser

Here are my suggestions for the family to cut out not only the €300pw shortfall to get back in the black, but over €400pw!:
1) Move to a basic health insurance plan and save €35pw
2) Cut out the €80pw AVC to save €50pw net of tax
3) Get rid of one of the cars, save €60pw
4) Everyone makes do with a prepay mobile, save €25pw 
5) If the kids want to buy expensive clothing/shoe brands let them do it out of a part time job, save €30pw
6) Switch to porridge instead of cornflakes, switch to Aldi/Lidl for groceries, save €30pw
7) Be ruthless about the €80pw "other" expenditure - save €40pw
8) If the credit union payment is savings stop it, if loan repayments it should be paid off within a couple of years anyway - save €50pw


----------



## Brendan Burgess

John Burns has a full page article on the issue in today's Sunday Times entitled *A Cereal Mystery.*

He quotes extensively from this thread.



> The reported details of her budget were dissected on Askaboutmoney.com and derided.
> Why were they spending €75 a week on health insurance?
> Why wasn't the wife working part-time?
> No money to buy meat, yet they could spend €127.50 per week on transport and €60 on clothes and footwear.
> ...
> As one contributor put it, "Presumably is a sergeant's family has these problems, then a regular garda's family must be destitute."
> ...
> The suspicion that [we were not being told the full story] caused a great deal of online anger.
> 
> ...
> "on a salary of €75,000, this family is in the top 20% of incomes in the country "according to Brendan Burgesss, founder of Askaboutmoney "The Nevin Institute is proposing to raise taxes on people like these. The story looks like nonsense to me. And as such it damages genuine cases. It screws it up for people who are genuinely in trouble"
> 
> ...
> 
> The sergeant's wife rung her hands over a €100 repair bill for the diswasher. There was no shortage of internet wags to point out that a bottle of Fairly liquid costs less than €2, and the "large" family could be pressed inot wash or dry service at the sink.


----------



## Marion

I agree with this statement in the final paragraph of the ST article. 

"_It is a concern to ensure accurate information is being given, because we don't want borrowers fighting with borrowers."
_
Nor do we want to see public-sector bashing to the fore again in the media. 



"_Meanwhile the private sector and the media were baying for blood."
_
Says a lot.

Marion


----------



## ajapale

This is what the IT journalist *Kathy Sheridan* has to say in her defence on the IT site



> In a post on Thursday evening,  *Kathy Sheridan* added the following:
> 
> 
> A few points are worth repeating about the article and the  background to its publication. My first duty was to protect the family’s  anonymity, so significant details such as the number of children were  withheld.
> 
> Verification of the garda’s weekly income was available in the  form of his payslip and we had permission to publish it in its original  form, with name and identifying details redacted. A view was taken by  senior editors, however, that certain other details might have  identified the payee so this too was withheld.
> 
> The family has been characterised by some as foolishly clinging to  “middle-class” fixations, such as private health insurance. The wife has  explained that her husband is over 50 and in stressful work. They do  not smoke or socialise. She is acutely aware that buying a house at the  height of the property boom was a poor decision in hindsight. As other  have argued here, they are hardly exceptional in that.
> 
> The payslip and the Mabs analysis of weekly expenditure confirm that  there is no financial “black hole”. There have been efforts to  supplement their income.
> 
> The point of the article was not to defend the past or present  choices of any individual but to provide an insight into how the timing  of that decision to buy a home and the cuts in public service pay and  overtime have affected one middle-income public servant’s family.  Contrary to some of the comment here, I have often written in the past  about the difficulty of persuading such people to give interviews. The  harshness of some of the criticism directed at this family explains why  perhaps.
> 
> I accept that the figures could have been better explained in the original article.
> 
> To clarify : the garda sergeant earned €75,000 gross LAST year,  including allowances and considerable overtime. That was clearly an  exceptional year.
> 
> Now, the family’s total weekly income, including child benefit, is  €807 net, according to Mabs. The following is its projected weekly  expenditure, according to a schedule prepared by the same agency :
> 
> Mortgage (interest only): €280.00
> Mortgage Protection Insurance €15,00
> Buildings/Contents Insurance €7.00
> Food/Housekeeping €200,00
> Electricity Usage €25.00
> Heat/Fuel Usage €25.00
> TV licence €4.00
> Waste Charges €5.00
> Telephone/Other utilities €43.00
> Transports costs €127.50
> Educational costs (college registration fees, children’s uniforms) €75.00
> Clothing/Footwear €60.00
> Medical costs (insurance) €73.23
> Repairs & Maintenance €20.00
> Other Expenditure €84.00
> Credit Union €50.00
> 
> Total €1,093.73
> 
> Not included are weekly pension-related contributions of around €80


----------



## ajapale

There are a lot of cheap nasty shots being made surrounding the story. But I think the cheapest nastiest shot has to be the Sindos attack on the Mabs Advisor/Mabs. The indo oped takes 4th hand information attributed to the maps advisor and proceeds to bash the service with statements like "_*What exactly are these people  being paid for if they cannot even do that?*_"



> If nothing else, the Irish Times story was a terrible advertisement  for the financial advice service being offered by Mabs, whose  representative, as quoted in the original article, "saw no way of  getting their outgoings below €1,100 a week".Say what? So  spending €3,120 a year on clothes and shoes and €4,368 a year on  unidentified "other expenditure" simply cannot be reduced?
> This is  a financial service which is run by the Citizens Information Board  under the remit of the Department of Social Protection to help  struggling families manage their debts, and it does not know how to help  a family manage with a food budget of €200 a week when thousands of  families do so on much smaller budgets? What exactly are these people  being paid for if they cannot even do that? In many ways it was the most  shocking part of the whole story. It may sound harsh to rake over a  family's finances with a fine toothcomb in this way, but when you put  your story out there -- like the garda wife or Joe Purcell, the actor  who told Liveline last week of being arrested for shoplifting for food  for his children -- then of course your words will be scrutinised.  Especially when it involves such an emotive subject as children. That  was the thing. The garda's wife didn't say she couldn't feed her  children because she was spending €240 a month on clothes. That wouldn't  have elicited so much sympathy. She told us her children went hungry  because she  didn't have money for food.  As parents, that stirs the  strongest possible emotions. Nothing could be worse than not having food  for your children. The narrative would generate the most powerful  visceral response from readers, and when it became apparent that there  was more to the situation than met the eye, then naturally that sympathy  would evaporate.


----------



## ajapale

Is medical insurance at €73.23/ week in line with other schemes? (semi private/all hospitals in state)

Couple with children under 18................€62.38 p.w.
Over 18 Scheme per dependent..   ........€10.85 p.w.
I reckon the family have several children under 18 and one dependant (child ?) over 18.

When advising the family to drop or reduce the level of health insurance we must consider whether there are any health problems in the family or pre existing conditions such as heart disease, diabetes etc.

Is there an element of day to day expenses in the St Pauls scheme? If so is the family claiming this?

Is the family claiming its med1 expenses?


----------



## ajapale

cashier said:


> ... pity the the lady in question didn't come on here in the first place to do a post in the money make over section, she would have been sorted in no time.



I would hope that if the lady (and people like her) posted here she would get a civilised helpful response.


----------



## ajapale

_Transports costs: €6,630
_
Do we know what the family's transport arrangements are?

Perhaps the Gda Sergeant commutes big miles to work?


----------



## ajapale

ajapale said:


> Is there an element of day to day expenses in the St Pauls scheme? If so is the family claiming this?



It appears there are very generous "day to day" expenses on the St Paul's scheme.

But note: _Serving members are excluded as they are provided for by the State
who pays the Doctor directly for treating the member._ Do serving members of AGS get free GP visits??



> 3 OUTPATIENT BENEFITS
> 3.1 Drugs/Medicines/Sleep Apnea
> ♦ Drugs and medicines obtained on prescription and having a drugs code and the hire of a sleep Apnea machine may be
> claimed. We will refund a maximum of €70 per month per family under this benefit. You pay the first €20 per month
> and any amount over €90 per month. This benefit is treated as a family benefit. Discuss with your G.P. the possibility
> of prescribing Generic Drugs which are much cheaper on you and also compare drug prices with other pharmacies in
> your area as some of them are much dearer than others.
> 3.2 Visits to Doctor
> ♦ Visits to or from recognised registered medical practitioners are paid to a maximum of €35 per visit and a maximum of
> 50 visits per family per annum. Itemised receipts from the doctor showing the name of the patient, date of visits and
> the cost of each visit must accompany claims. Serving members are excluded as they are provided for by the State
> who pays the Doctor directly for treating the member. You should encourage your G.P. to register to provide this
> service to avoid having to pay him upfront and having to pay income tax on the refund from your Superintendant.
> 3.3 Dental Benefit
> ♦ Claims must be supported by receipts and completed dental chart giving details of work carried out, the date and cost
> of each item and the name of the patient. The following cover is provided:
> Veneers/Etch/Rembrandt Fillings - paid to a maximum of €36.00. Extractions incl wisdom - paid to a max of €40
> Fissure sealing paid to a maximum of €20.00 per tooth
> Periodontal Treatment 65% of the cost to a maximum of €180 per annum in respect of any one person.
> Root Treatment 65% of the cost to a maximum payment of €300 per patient per annum
> Note: Periodontal & Root Treatment must be carried out by a Periodontist or Endodontist for payment to be made.
> Crowns 65% of the cost to a maximum of €220.00 per crown
> Orthodontic incl. x-rays 65% of the cost paid to a maximum of €1700 as a once off payment in respect of
> any one person
> Bridging 65% of the cost to a maximum of €170.00 per unit
> Dental Examinations/Cleaning and Scaling are not covered.
> In Patient Dental Treatment. The Society will cover the cost of surgical dental procedures requiring
> hospitalisation where it is certified that it was medically necessary such as the removal of wisdom teeth under
> general anesthetic etc and at the “participating professional fee rate” that applies in such cases.
> 3.4 Optical Eye Laser Benefit.
> ♦ The Society pays 65% of the cost to a maximum of €400 per eye towards the cost of eye laser treatment if deemed
> medically necessary, once in a lifetime against paid receipts
> ♦ Surgical procedures and treatment for eye diseases are covered.
> ♦ A grant of €150 towards spectacles/contact lenses is payable once every two years only when medically prescribed.
> Eye Examinations are not covered. Members who joined after 06/04/95 and their spouses have class A PRSI
> and may be entitled to some optical benefit. Consult your optician who will advise and claim your entitlements.
> 3.5 Fees for Out-Patient Consultations
> ♦ The Society will pay 65% of the cost of a Consultant visit including Psychiatric Consultants to a maximum of €80.
> ♦ The Society will pay a maximum of 65% of the cost of out-patient treatment including x-rays to a max of €50, blood
> tests to a max of €30 and pathological tests when ordered by a Consultant. This provision does not apply to treatment
> provided in Private A&E’s as outlined at 3.8 below where a maximum payment for all services provided of €75
> applies.
> ♦ The Society will pay 65% of the cost of Physio/Physical Therapy treatments – to a maximum of €35 per treatment and
> subject to a maximum of 12 visits in a calendar year. The Society will pay 65% of the cost of artificial limbs.
> 3.6 Hearing Aids
> The Society will pay 65% of the cost of Hearing Aids after deduction of your PRSI entitlement which your supplier
> will claim for you subject to a maximum payment of €1,000 per ear once every three years. Members and their
> spouses have class A PRSI are entitled to some benefit towards hearing aid costs. Consult your audiologist who
> will advise and claim your entitlements.
> 3.7 Restricted Cover
> ♦ The following are covered and are restricted to 65% of the cost and subject to a maximum payment of €30 per visit
> and subject to a maximum of 10 visits in a calendar year.
> (a) Counselors/Psychologists (b) Acupuncture (c) Speech Therapy (d) Osteopathy (e) Chiropractic’s (f) Chiropody.
> 3.8 General Benefits
> ♦ The Society provides 65% of the cost of ordinary or motorised wheelchairs to a maximum payment of €750.
> ♦ The Society provides 65% of the cost of orthotics to a maximum of €250 per annum.
> ♦ The Society provides 65% of the cost of consultations/investigation/harvesting/storing/thawing and any other
> treatment/advice/consultation re male/female infertility (IVF and/or IUI) to a maximum payment of €2300 per couple
> (€1150 if only one of the couple on cover). It is not available for the first year of membership and is confined to a
> maximum of three payments totaling €6900 and is confined to the member together with his/her spouse/partner on
> cover with the Society for at least 12 months. (Receipts must clearly state if it is the 1st 2nd or 3rd treatment.)
> ♦ The Society pays €75 towards the cost of attendance at Public and Private A&E type facilities such as Swiftcare,
> Beacon Clinic, Galway Clinic, Blackrock Clinic, Whitfield Clinic, Hermitage Clinic and Sports Injury Clinic
> including the cost of all tests, X rays etc carried out. You will incur major expense in attending a Private A&E as
> compared to attending at a Public Hospital A&E.
> 3.9 Convalescent and Post Operative Care
> ♦ The Society contributes to the cost of post operative care in a nursing home for a maximum period of two weeks in a
> 12 month period immediately following hospitalisation for acute medical conditions or major surgery against paid
> receipts, if the need is medically certified by your treating Consultant and approved by the Society before admission
> and subject to a maximum payment of €700 per week which covers all costs incurred during your stay such as
> Physiotherapy, Drugs etc.
> 3.10 Out Patient Scans – MRI and CT Scans.
> ♦ The Society has a direct payment arrangement with providers of these scans and pays them on your behalf when the
> scan is ordered by a Consultant or a G.P. The maximum level of cover applying where the provider of the service
> does not have an agreement with the Society; MRI Scan – Cost covered to maximum of €250 per scan. CT Scan
> – Cost covered to maximum of €200 per scan. See circular of 8th December 2011 on Notice Board Section of the
> website www.medicalaid.ie for contact details/phone numbers of the various suppliers.
> 3.11 Ambulance Cover – Maximum Allowable €1200.
> ♦ The Society will cover the cost of an ambulance where a doctor certifies that it is medically necessary because the
> patient is seriously ill or disabled and where the ambulance is used to transfer a patient between hospitals. Journeys
> from Home to Hospital or from A&E Departments in Private Hospitals are not covered.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

ajapale said:


> There are a lot of cheap nasty shots being made surrounding the story. But I think the cheapest nastiest shot has to be the Sindos attack on the Mabs Advisor/Mabs. The indo oped takes 4th hand information attributed to the maps advisor and proceeds to bash the service with statements like "_*What exactly are these people  being paid for if they cannot even do that?*_"



Hi AJ

I agree that this attack is not justified. However, the piece overall is well written.

Brendan


----------



## AgathaC

ajapale said:


> I would hope that if the lady (and people like her) posted here she would get a civilised helpful response.


I have read fantastic, constructive advice here on AAM, over the years, especially where people have sought help in the Money Makeover section. I see no reason to believe that she would have got anything but a civilised helpful response had she sought advice on AAM, instead of having this article published. The articlle has backfired, in its intent, in my opinion. However that is a separate issue.


----------



## AgathaC

brendan burgess said:


> hi aj
> 
> i agree that this attack is not justified. However, the piece overall is well written.
> 
> Brendan


 +1.


----------



## Dermot

I agree with AgathaC but to get a constructive response here you need to put all your financial details truthfully on the table and there appears to be some detail lacking in this particular case. It has been pretty well examined here but the facts and figures do not equate to all the "cornflake days" described in the IT article/letter.


----------



## SarahMc

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi AJ
> 
> I agree that this attack is not justified. However, the piece overall is well written.
> 
> Brendan



Mabs are in a tough situation here, they cannot come out without predjucing client confidentiality, but I suspect they have been misrepresented in this case.


----------



## DB74

SarahMc said:


> Mabs are in a tough situation here, they cannot come out without predjucing client confidentiality, but I suspect they have been misrepresented in this case.



They don't have to name names but they can certainly come out with a statement such as

"we have no record of any client with a Gross Income of €XYZ with a negative weekly income of €100 per week"

or something similar without prejudicing anyone's confidentiality

They have been badly hurt here IMO


----------



## Bronte

cashier said:


> At least AAM is getting great publicity out of it, pity the the lady in question didn't come on here in the first place to do a post in the money make over section, she would have been sorted in no time and by now would be shopping in ALDI, buying the family clothes in Penny's and Dunnes and packing home made lunches for all the family!


 
Actually it would be an interesting exercise to do exactly that. For someone to post up in the money makeover section and we could respond. If someone wants to do that then I'll gladly go through the figures. Some have already made a stab at it on this thread.

I'm particularly interested in the fact that they are only paying interest only on the mortgage, which is not a good idea. Wonder what the actual repayment mortgage was. Would also like to know how much they were earning when they purchased the house to see if it ever made sense financially. Also interested in the fact that the mortgage was to run until he was 70. Don't most garda retire early, would his pension be more or less equal to his salary, I presume not so how were they to pay the mortgage?

A few points to note about the Kathy Sheridan piece. She has now changed the actually income. Also she says there is a 200 Euro weekly amount for groceries so how could you have a cornflake day based on that? Which was the main point of the acticle. 

There is a very important theme that maybe the Irish Times combined with the respresentative body of the Gardai (and what difference does it make what they are called?) are on a mission to influence the budget cuts. Maybe the situation of this couple, and I'm sure many others are in similar plights, was brought to the attention of the reporter. 

Thinking about the garda wife. I certainly would not like to live without my dishwasher. It must be very difficult to go all of a sudden from a certain lifestyle to a tightly budgeted one. Plenty of people have had to do that in the last few years.

I am amazed that someone who until recently was on a high salary had absolutely nothing saved for college fees etc. Surely there must be some savings somewhere, unless it all went into the new house.  Would anyone know how much he sould have been making when times were good?


----------



## Luternau

I am curious about the revised net weekly income, which it states also includes childrens allowance. Have GS really suffered such a reduction in pay?


----------



## orka

cashier said:


> yes she would have got very constructive advice here. I also think this story has backfired massively.
> 
> We have many hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their jobs in recent years and a family and two children are having to survive on circa €20,000 a year on Jobseekers Allowance not inluding what they getting on mortgage interest relief or rent allowance.
> They have to feed cloth and educate their families in the same way as the above mentioned family who have a income of €65,000, in addition they would have had to give up their health insurance and rely on an already overstretch public health care system, one can only imagine how the unemployed are feeling reading this thread.


You make it sound like there is a huge difference between the two families.  

The unemployed family receives 20K net plus rent allowance - so essentially 20K to live on excluding accommodation costs.  

The 65K family gets 41,058 net after tax, levies, USC.  They pay 1,400 interest only on their mortgage, leaving them 24,258 to live on excluding accommodation costs.

The difference doesn't look so huge now does it?

And the unemployed family get a medical card so free GP etc., back to school allowances, fuel allowances etc.

If all allowances, overtime etc. are removed from the garda, his gross would be the basic 51,034 which would be a net of 35,728.  After the interest only mortgage, that leaves them with a non-accommodation living income of 18,928 - worse off than your example of an unemployed family with 2 children (and I think the garda in the story has at least 4 children which would give an unemployed family an extra 3K a year bringing them to 23K).





cashier said:


> one can only imagine how the unemployed are feeling reading this thread.


one can only imagine how the employed feel reading your post and mine.

I've found myself in the weird position of being vaguely public-sector defending on this thread; I think without the mention of cornflake days this story would barely have warranted a small part of a bigger story - the cornflakes days angles propelled it to two articles, including one on the front page.  The only part of the story I would like verified is if the family genuinely all eat only cornflakes on some days.  I can certainly imagine a mother thinking to herself that she would eat cornflakes to save a bit of money rather than making a meal for herself - but inflicting that on the whole family, including growing teenagers? I really can't see that happening.


----------



## bugler

It's pretty clear they over-reached with the cornflake tale. There are huge amounts being spent on undefined items (Other expenditure, telephones) as well as €200 per week on food. 

There is no excuse for them to be eating cereal of any sort all day. In the very unlikely event that it is true, it is a worry because it shows the parents are not prioritising the family's nutrition over other non-essential items.

The lack of food and eating cornflakes were brought in to make the story eye-catching, but they have sunk the whole sorry lot instead.


----------



## truthseeker

orka said:


> The unemployed family receives 20K net plus rent allowance - so essentially 20K to live on excluding accommodation costs.
> 
> The 65K family gets 41,058 net after tax, levies, USC.  They pay 1,400 interest only on their mortgage, leaving them 24,258 to live on excluding accommodation costs.
> 
> The difference doesn't look so huge now does it?
> 
> And the unemployed family get a medical card so free GP etc., back to school allowances, fuel allowances etc.



This depends on the comparison being made. If we are talking about victims of the recession (which is effectively the issue of the Gardas family), then they probably arent on rent allowance but are paying a mortgage - at least to make a fair comparison to the Gardas family it would be better to take two parents recently made unemployed and dependant on the state for support.

A large number of unemployed families would be receiving non means tested JSB and due to redundancy payments or savings would be ineligible for means tested assistances like mortgage interest relief, medical card, etc..

In this case they are still faced with paying their mortgage (or some form of it) out of the circa 20k JSB payments - leaving them with probably under 10k to manage on (plus savings, which dont last too long under that kind of pressure).

If you are going to compare the Garda family with people on rent allowance with medical cards, back to school allowances etc then its more likely that the comparison is being made with people who are long term unemployed, which is a less relevant comparison.


----------



## Mrs Cornflakes

You are doing my head in with all your cross-talk and your advice, some of which, I will consider.

I have done a money makeover in the Money Makeover forum as Emily suggested in an earlier post and I would appreciate your help.


----------



## orka

truthseeker said:


> This depends on the comparison being made. If we are talking about victims of the recession (which is effectively the issue of the Gardas family),


Why do you think we are talking only about victims of the recession?  Do the feelings of other unemployed people not count?  I was responding to cashier’s post which had 





cashier said:


> one can only imagine how the unemployed are feeling reading this thread.


 and 





cashier said:


> We have many hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their jobs in recent years and a family and two children are having to survive on circa €20,000 a year on Jobseekers Allowance not inluding what they getting on mortgage interest relief or rent allowance.


 – that’s what I was responding to.  My point is that cashier’s unemployed person on 20K plus accommodation who feels so aggrieved about the rich garda on 65K should compare net situations.


----------



## truthseeker

orka said:


> Why do you think we are talking only about victims of the recession?  Do the feelings of other unemployed people not count?  I was responding to cashier’s post which had  and  – that’s what I was responding to.  My point is that cashier’s unemployed person on 20K plus accommodation who feels so aggrieved about the rich garda on 65K should compare net situations.



I thought we were talking about victims of the recession because the first paragraph of the IT piece on this story says 





> THE FINANCIAL difficulties of middle-income families who bought their home during the property boom have been highlighted by the wife of a Garda sergeant in a letter to a number of Government ministers.



so I felt a comparison with someone unemployed on rent allowance wasnt really a valid comparison.


----------



## orka

truthseeker said:


> I thought we were talking about victims of the recession because the first paragraph of the IT piece on this story says





truthseeker said:


> so I felt a comparison with someone unemployed on rent allowance wasnt really a valid comparison.


Why should a comparison only be with a recently unemployed person? And why two people recently unemployed with no mortgage interest help? Compare away if you think it adds to the debate.



I’m not trying to see if the garda would be better off giving up work but responding to the many comments along the lines of ‘I earn half that working down’t pit and I still manage to eat caviar on a Friday night’ – and no-one has tried to look at a net situation – comparing 65K gross with 20K net makes it look like, wow, a big difference but it’s often not, particularly for a public sector worker. Some examples just from this thread:

“Funnily enough I earn very close to what that Garda earns...I save €500-600 per month, we would have a take away or eat out regularly, we really don't watch our spending”
“The Garda and the actor are living like Lords compared to me! ~sob~”
“This is nauseating! He earns €65K a year? I earn less than half that!”
“I am a lone working parent of 2 small children earning a lot less than this Garda, ...and I am able to manage”
“I have no kids. My wife and I have had greatly reduced income for over 2 years now due to illness. Our annual net income is 28.5k.”
“If this was a teacher on 35000 a year, with five dependants,”
“how angry must members of middle Ireland be reading this article when they have lost their jobs or earn half what this guy is”
“I live on less than half of what this guy earns - and I can say that I do so quite comfortably”
“Tell you what. Let Mr. Guard live on what I do. Me and my family would be very happy to live on €75k a year”
And the one I finally responded to:

“We have many hundreds of thousands of people who have lost their jobs in recent years and a family and two children are having to survive on circa €20,000 a year on Jobseekers Allowance not inluding what they getting on mortgage interest relief or rent allowance. ...one can only imagine how the unemployed are feeling reading this thread.”
A 65K public sector salary has the same take-home as a private sector 55K salary. A 51K public sector salary has the same take-home as a private sector 44K salary. To the ‘I earn half what this guy does’ people – is that half gross or net? A 32.5K private salary (50% of 65K) takes home 28.3K net (87% of the 65K take-home) – so if it’s gross, you might think you earn half but you actually earn almost 90% of what the garda does. If someone genuinely takes home half the 65K take-home (so taking home 20.5K), they would earn less than 24K gross so would be entitled to other state supports, particularly with 4/5 kids. 
I would just like to see some non-emotive discussion – it’s very easy to see ‘65K salary’ and think you would do so much better if you had their life. But mixing up grosses and nets dooms the comparisons from the start – although I think many posters on this thread are happy enough to keep talking blindly amongst themselves. 

I need a lie-down now after all this public sector defense... 

For the record, I think public sector salaries and allowances need to be cut more. Salaries are too big a part of national spending to escape cuts given how much we need to cut overall to balance the books. It’s rough on the garda’s family but they will have to adapt their spending and there are undoubtedly ways for them to do this. [A big problem is that they seem to have a lot of children but there was a large element of choice in that – if college is an important thing, you should probably only have the number of children you can afford to put through college. On the plus side, they will have the large number of children to help them in their old age when they are trying to sort out their mortgage mess having been interest-only for many years.]
So they will have to adjust but it will be painful in the short term and I don’t think recognition of that is misplaced.


And despite being a very rightwing capitalist, this really can't go unanswered:


cashier said:


> Sorry I didn't make it clear, I was referring to unemployed people who have been recent victims of the recession not the unemployed who have been on the dole all their lives with never any intention of doing a day's work.


Wow that's quite a stereotype - we have the 'virtuous' unemployed and the dregs of humanity? What about the inbetweens? If you work one year and then not for 25, does your one year drag you off the bottom of the pile? Will the 'victims of the recession' eventually transition to being worthless layabouts undeserving of a voice in commenting on national finances? Is there a ratio of years worked to years unemployed at which point you flip from 'victim of recession' to unworthy kicking-boy and butt of dismissive comments? I really need a lie-down after all this left-wing defense.


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## truthseeker

orka you are becoming too emotive and beginning to personalise so I have no interest in continuing to debate. There are a myriad of different comparisons that could be made. I simply wished to point out that I felt a more valid comparison was what I used - you are of course free to disagree.


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## DB74

orka said:


> A 65K public sector salary has the same take-home as a private sector 55K salary.



A public-sector one-income family with a gross salary of €65K takes home €43,866 per year

The comparative salary for a private sector employee would be ~ €59,000 (take home of €43,803)

[broken link removed]

A private sector employee earning half the gross salary of the guard would take home €29,130 which is 66.4% of the guard's take-home pay and not 90% as you claim


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## serotoninsid

orka said:


> I’m not trying to see if the garda would be better off giving up work but responding to the many comments along the lines of ‘I earn half that working down’t pit and I still manage to eat caviar on a Friday night’ – and no-one has tried to look at a net situation


Well, the 'net situation' is currently being dissected over on the 'money makeover' thread that the individual concerned has started.  I think this represents a good opportunity for the O.P. on that thread to 'crowd source' possible solutions to their financial bind through the collective contribution of AAM'ers.  Furthermore - provided the O.P. fleshes out the detail, it will become clearer specifically what their net situation is.  I am one of those that you indicated in relation to outlining that I was perplexed by this case study in that I do earn less than half of this individuals earnings.  As the facts are teased out, I guess we will see if money is being wasted here - or whether 'cornflakes days' are justified/unavoidable.


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## Janet

serotoninsid said:


> Well, the 'net situation' is currently being dissected over on the 'money makeover' thread that the individual concerned has started.



Forgive me if I have misunderstood but I didn't think the garda's wife in question has actually come on to AAM and posted but rather that "someone" started the money makeover thread to allow the more in-depth analysis of figures and questions to be posed.


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## shigllgetcha

DB74 said:


> A public-sector one-income family with a gross salary of €65K takes home €43,866 per year
> 
> The comparative salary for a private sector employee would be ~ €59,000 (take home of €43,803)
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> A private sector employee earning half the gross salary of the guard would take home €29,130 which is 66.4% of the guard's take-home pay and not 90% as you claim


 
take away €4,775 in the pension levy and c.€3,250 in pension contributions aswell though for the public sector employee


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## orka

DB74 said:


> A public-sector one-income family with a gross salary of €65K takes home €43,866 per year
> 
> The comparative salary for a private sector employee would be ~ €59,000 (take home of €43,803)
> 
> [broken link removed]
> 
> A private sector employee earning half the gross salary of the guard would take home €29,130 which is 66.4% of the guard's take-home pay and not 90% as you claim


Have a look at taxcalc.eu which I have always found to be the most accurate calculator.


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## DB74

orka said:


> Have a look at taxcalc.eu which I have always found to be the most accurate calculator.



The difference seems to be related to a pension contribution of €3,387 on the .EU site which isn't on the .IE site.

It can't be changed on the .EU site either

What is this figure made up of

The Pension Levy is €4,775


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## Bronte

Janet said:


> but rather that "someone" started the money makeover thread to allow the more in-depth analysis of figures and questions to be posed.


 
and in line with that it would be great if one of the posters on this thread who know what tax a man would pay on an income of 50K we might progress on that discussion. So far I cannot even figure out the income.  

Thanks to whoever posted that other thread. It's a much better way of figuring out if 75K or indeed 65K is a lot to live on.

(Not sure who Emily is though).


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## orka

DB74 said:


> The difference seems to be related to a pension contribution of €3,387 on the .EU site which isn't on the .IE site.
> 
> It can't be changed on the .EU site either
> 
> What is this figure made up of
> 
> The Pension Levy is €4,775


Public sector workers (full class A prsi) recruited after 1995 have had to pay pension contributions even before the pension levy (see the FAQ on cspensions.gov.ie). I'm not sure if the garda scheme is the same but I think they have some contribution to make.


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## serotoninsid

Janet said:


> Forgive me if I have misunderstood but I didn't think the garda's wife in question has actually come on to AAM and posted but rather that "someone" started the money makeover thread to allow the more in-depth analysis of figures and questions to be posed.


Ok, if that's the case - thanks for clarifying.  It would be far better if it was the person concerned - as further clarification is needed in order to determine with a little bit more precision - the situation of that individual and possible solutions to their financial predicament...


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## DerKaiser

I think Orka has raised a brilliant point.

A couple of questions stand out:
1) Should public servants be allowed opt out of future pension accruals in return for no pension levy or pension contribution?
2) If debt forgiveness comes in, will there will be very little to incentivise someone with a fairly average mortgage and a salary of €65k continuing to work versus just throwing in the towel and having their debt written off?

Could we do a Mrs Cornflakes scenario where the family are not working, have had their mortgage written off, etc and see how they compare?


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## serotoninsid

DerKaiser said:


> Could we do a Mrs Cornflakes scenario where the family are not working, have had their mortgage written off, etc and see how they compare?


I'm sure we could if all the details were provided - but as yet, that doesn't seem to be the case over on the money makeover thread.


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## Bronte

serotoninsid said:


> I'm sure we could if all the details were provided - but as yet, that doesn't seem to be the case over on the money makeover thread.


 
Indeed we do not have all the details.  The pension contribution in particular is very hard to pin down.


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## drs

orka said:


> You make it sound like there is a huge difference between the two families.
> 
> The unemployed family receives 20K net plus rent allowance - so essentially 20K to live on excluding accommodation costs.
> 
> The 65K family gets 41,058 net after tax, levies, USC.  They pay 1,400 interest only on their mortgage, leaving them 24,258 to live on excluding accommodation costs.
> 
> The difference doesn't look so huge now does it?



At last somebody is talking some sense


orka said:


> And the unemployed family get a medical card so free GP etc., back to school allowances, fuel allowances etc.
> 
> If all allowances, overtime etc. are removed from the garda, his gross would be the basic 51,034 which would be a net of 35,728.  After the interest only mortgage, that leaves them with a non-accommodation living income of 18,928 - worse off than your example of an unemployed family with 2 children (and I think the garda in the story has at least 4 children which would give an unemployed family an extra 3K a year bringing them to 23K).one can only imagine how the employed feel reading your post and mine.


I had been tempted to do those sums myself


orka said:


> I've found myself in the weird position of being vaguely public-sector defending on this thread; I think without the mention of cornflake days this story would barely have warranted a small part of a bigger story - the cornflakes days angles propelled it to two articles, including one on the front page.  The only part of the story I would like verified is if the family genuinely all eat only cornflakes on some days.  I can certainly imagine a mother thinking to herself that she would eat cornflakes to save a bit of money rather than making a meal for herself - but inflicting that on the whole family, including growing teenagers? I really can't see that happening.


I think the real issue is that people compare Gross salaries and think: "Oh he's earning twice what I'm earning... lucky __insert_derogatory_term__" 

If people were all just dealing in NET salaries that would be a fair comparison, but the reality is we all talk in Gross... €60k/pa gross is not twice €30k/pa by the time you get to the Net line on the payslip


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## DerKaiser

drs said:


> I think the real issue is that people compare Gross salaries and think: "Oh he's earning twice what I'm earning... lucky __insert_derogatory_term__"
> 
> If people were all just dealing in NET salaries that would be a fair comparison, but the reality is we all talk in Gross... €60k/pa gross is not twice €30k/pa by the time you get to the Net line on the payslip


 
Another excellent point. 

It's really interesting to look at this level of salary pre and post retirement.

As stated above €51k delivers €35.7k net to someone in the public service under 65.

If that person has a 66% pension of €34k on retiring at the age of 65, their take home will be €31.2k.

I find this astounding. I know this particular person will need plenty of money in retirement as they will still be paying the mortgage, but in normal cases where the kids get jobs and the mortgage is paid off and there are no commute costs, the level of expenditure would probably fall by €15k+ meaning disposable income actually rises significantly on retirement!


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## terrysgirl33

DerKaiser said:


> Another excellent point.
> 
> It's really interesting to look at this level of salary pre and post retirement.
> 
> As stated above €51k delivers €35.7k net to someone in the public service under 65.
> 
> If that person has a 66% pension of €34k on retiring at the age of 65, their take home will be €31.2k.
> 
> I find this astounding. I know this particular person will need plenty of money in retirement as they will still be paying the mortgage, but in normal cases where the kids get jobs and the mortgage is paid off and there are no commute costs, the level of expenditure would probably fall by €15k+ meaning disposable income actually rises significantly on retirement!



Saying that the kids will have jobs is a bit of a crystal ball job (talking in general, not about this case).  There are many cases where the kids are only in their early 20s, which can mean unemployed or still in college.  You can also have a situation where grandkids have come along but the kids are not able to manage financially just yet, particularly with couples having their kids later this is quite common (as in, the grandparents in this case, if they have their children in their 30s, then their children will only be in their early 20s when the grandparents retire).

My parents are retired and finding that they have more disposable income than they ever had.  As they get older, may need more care I am very relieved that financially things are easy for them now.  They struggled to make ends meet for years, it's nice to see them relax now.


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## Protocol

DerKaiser said:


> Another excellent point.
> 
> It's really interesting to look at this level of salary pre and post retirement.
> 
> As stated above €51k delivers €35.7k net to someone in the public service under 65.
> 
> If that person has a 66% pension of €34k on retiring at the age of 65, their take home will be €31.2k.
> 
> I find this astounding. I know this particular person will need plenty of money in retirement as they will still be paying the mortgage, but in normal cases where the kids get jobs and the mortgage is paid off and there are no commute costs, the level of expenditure would probably fall by €15k+ meaning disposable income actually rises significantly on retirement!


 
Note that PS pensions are 50% of wages, assuming full service.

But yes, there are retired teachers on 700 pw pension, more than new teachers make.


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## Bronte

The original reporter on this must read blogs etc as she came back on the radio with Marian Finucane about this.  Did anyone hear what she said?


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