# Secondary School Teaching/Substitute?



## youngman (1 Feb 2008)

I wonder if anyone preferably working as a secondary school teacher could give me some advice on the following:

I have been considering doing the Hdip and joining the teaching profession. Im a bit in the dark about multiple issues. 
To provide some background. I have a degree in business from U.L. Major in Economics and finance with minor in Agribusiness. I love sport and am involved with county team,hurling & football clubs & soccer club. I am a people person and am good with children ( have helped out in montessori, with coaching underage teams etc).
I am a not happy with my career at present in the private sector and would like to add some stability in the coming years. I wanted to do teaching when i finished my degree but was advised otherwise by family and friends and told i would earn more,advance quicker and be better suited to private sector. I am hard working and ambitious and believe these attributes are just as relevant to teaching. 

My main concerns are:

Where/how could i gain some experience to ensure i would be cut out for it?
Does my degree qualify me to teach many subjects?
Are there many permanent positions in secondary schools in Ireland at the moment and what are the prospects in terms of demand for teachers?
Where is the best college to do the HDip?
Can I send out my CV for subbing to schools etc in my area and have even a chance of being offered any part time teaching hours?
How could i improve my chances of getting hours/sub work?
I know a secondary school teacher who left because he said that he couldnt put up with the behaviour and this threw me off. I think i could deal with it but is there a problem with job satisfation/turnover/stress in this career?

I have missed the application date for 2008 so is this a good time to be looking for relevant experience or when is the best time.

Thank you for taking the time to read this really long post! I would welcome advice/answers to help me deceide on my next move.


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## Black Sheep (1 Feb 2008)

From one who spent half a lifetime in the wrong career and returned to college as a very mature student it can be life changing. A whole new world opened up. Never ignore a gut feeling. You say you wanted to go the teaching route after college but were advised otherwise, so why not now do your own thing.  While I agree teaching is not for everyone you will never know until you try. 

You still have your current career to fall back on if you ever suffer burnout.


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## Mar123 (1 Feb 2008)

Where/how could i gain some experience to ensure i would be cut out for it?
Go around to secondary schools in your area in person with a CV and let them know your available and looking for sub work. You could also register with your local education centre for sub work.

Does my degree qualify me to teach many subjects? Probably business, economics and maybe accountancy. I would check with the Teaching Council to make sure, as their very strict in relation to qualifications.
Are there many permanent positions in secondary schools in Ireland at the moment and what are the prospects in terms of demand for teachers?
Very few, and hard to come by. You coud be working a number of years as a sub, before getting a permanent position if your lucky.

Can I send out my CV for subbing to schools etc in my area and have even a chance of being offered any part time teaching hours?
Do, and call in person, so they can suss you out, and remember you.
How could i improve my chances of getting hours/sub work?
As above

I know a secondary school teacher who left because he said that he couldnt put up with the behaviour and this threw me off. I think i could deal with it but is there a problem with job satisfation/turnover/stress in this career?
All schools vary. Once you are confident with your teaching subjects , and deal with behaviour issues promptly and fairly, it can be a rewarding career. It's what you make of it.

Hope this helps. I'm afraid the main issue is lack of job security, and there a large number of teachers with business subjects looking for work.


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## beautfan (1 Feb 2008)

My house mate qualified as a teacher 2 years ago at the age of 40. He was made redundant and used the money to fund this. He only has got sub teaching so far but no interviews for perm posts. 

He wants to stay in the Kerry area but has said if he was willing to move to dublin he might have a better chance. He has been working almost every week this year and hopes this will get him some interviews for the next teaching year.


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## youngman (1 Feb 2008)

Thank you for your careful and helpful comments thus far. I will keep up the research.


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## cole (1 Feb 2008)

Regarding the HDip you can do it part-time over 2 years in [broken link removed] a well as full-time in other colleges. NUI Maynooth has a very good name. The HDip is now called the Grad Dip in Education.

Getting some experience will enhance your chances of getting onto the HDip as well as giving you a flavour of the work. So do send your CV to the local schools. They're always looking for good subs..remember though you could be any number of classes not just economics.

I wouldn't worry about people leaving the profession... that'll always happen in every walk of life. I know of loads of teachers who love their jobs.

Getting a permanent job is difficult but doable as long as your flexible about location etc.

If you've enthusiasm and genuinely like young people it's a great job!


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## niceoneted (1 Feb 2008)

I applied last year to do the HDip in Maynooth as it suited me best location wise and also I know a principle who did his teaching masters there and he rates it highly. I like you had a business degree. I was informed I would be eligible to teach business studies to junior cert and economics and business studies to leaving cert. You could also say you'd be happy to teach CSPE as this is an examinable subject on the junior cert now and all teachers teach it. 
The way the selection process was done for Maynooth was that you got points for any courses completed ( diplomas, Degress etc) and then points for any hours taught, say 1-100 hrs 1 point, 101 - 200 hrs 2 points and so on. The entry points were I think 22 but 24 for people with business degrees as there were so many applicants from that area. I got 22 points so was not selected. 
I have subsequently started a part time masters in quantity surveying and am very pleased with that. Both were job areas I had been exploring for a while. I am 14 yrs in my current career and like you needed a change. 
Was the closing date for entry this year not some date in Feb?? 
Good luck with it.


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## csirl (4 Feb 2008)

> Are there many permanent positions in secondary schools in Ireland at the moment and what are the prospects in terms of demand for teachers?
> Very few, and hard to come by. You coud be working a number of years as a sub, before getting a permanent position if your lucky.


 
You need a H Dip to be eligible for a permanent position.

Good news is that the days of teachers being on endless non-permanent contracts is over. The max that a qualified teacher can be non-permanent is 4 years and even within the 4 years, there are restrictions on replacing them with other non-permanent staff during these 4 years. New EU rules on fixed term contracts totally changed the contract landscape for teachers. 

Not all teachers are aware of these rules and even the teachers unions are not 100% familiar. And many Principals are not broadcasting this because they want to keep their staff on their toes, though D/Education seems to be pushing the changes.

My OH, who is a secondary teacher in a school where the Principal fits into the not broadcast category has some amusing stories of teachers in her school being very grateful to the Principal for telling them they would get permanent positions, which, legally speaking, they already had & D/Education were just forcing the Principal to regularise the paperwork.


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## manninjj (8 Jun 2009)

Hi CSIRL,

I just had a few questions as regards your comment: "The max that a qualified teacher can be non-permanent is 4 years".

I was looking for this information subsequent to reading your post and couldn't find anything else alluding to this.

So if you knew the answers I'd be much obliged:

1. Does this regulation only apply to teachers teaching in ONE school continuously for four years as a non-permanent teacher? Or is it a case whereby, if you are a non-permanent teacher (teaching in various schools) for four years - you have the same right to be made permanent?

2. Are PGDE (UK) qualified teachers subject to the same regulation? Or does it only apply to fully qualified teachers trained in Ireland?


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## Jano (8 Jun 2009)

I think CSIRL is referring to Contracts of Indefinite Duration (CID contracts). These apply if you stay in one school for at least 4 years, the hours you had during your 4th year will be your contract. Schools sometimes use this fact to reduce the hours in the 4th year and then limit the hours in your CID which they are committed to paying you. They are NOT permanent jobs, as long as the subject is being taught and the numbers in the school justify the existence of these hours, the CID holder gets them. However, I know a school this year that will no longer run LC German for example and the relevant teacher in the case finds herself jobless as the duration of her CID has now ended. 5 CID holders are leaving the same school. It is hard to get a permanent job, but you will get sub work in the interim. 

Economics is a minority subject, be prepared to teach LCVP as well as Business. See LCVP.ie


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## ulysses32 (18 Jun 2009)

This is not the case. A CID contract is a permanent contract. The same rights are conferred upon a CID holder as what was known as a permanent teacher. The case outlined above might refer to fixed-term teachers whose contracts are renewed annually.

For further clarification refer to circular 0055/2008 where the interchangeability and equality of PWT and CID are made explicit.


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## dubinamerica (16 Jul 2009)

If you want to sub in a secondary school, do you have to have a teaching qualification and a number from the teacher's council ? I have a maths degree and have checked online that this is recognized, and am considering applying for the hdip in education. The additional points received for hours of teaching experience would really help with ensuring I have the point, but I'm not sure whether a secondary school can take you on to sub without the hdip?
Also, are there any other areas where you can gain valid teaching hours - say adult education courses etc? If you were willing to do this voluntarily, any other options open?  
Any info would be appreciated !


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## J_P_C (20 Mar 2010)

Hi everyone.. 
I am currently in the middle of completing my honours degree in business studies (accountancy).. my degree is registered on the teachers council for teaching.
My question is I am looking to do a HDIP after my degree but everyone seems to say they look for some teaching sub hours. 
I am just wonder how can I go about getting Sub Hours with out my degree finished??.. is that possible??


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## lionstour (20 Mar 2010)

csirl said:


> New EU rules on fixed term contracts totally changed the contract landscape for teachers.
> 
> Not all teachers are aware of these rules and even the teachers unions are not 100% familiar. And many Principals are not broadcasting this because they want to keep their staff on their toes, though D/Education seems to be pushing the changes.
> .


 
There are many ways where this can be got around. If you are talking about cids then your contract after 4 years is based on the hours you have in the 4th year. So technically you may be on a 11 hour contract which is what your permanent contract is based on. An 11 hour contract is basically half salary. the rest on the hours can be made up with substitute hours but this is not paid during summer etc.


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## lionstour (20 Mar 2010)

J_P_C said:


> Hi everyone..
> I am currently in the middle of completing my honours degree in business studies (accountancy).. my degree is registered on the teachers council for teaching.
> My question is I am looking to do a HDIP after my degree but everyone seems to say they look for some teaching sub hours.
> I am just wonder how can I go about getting Sub Hours with out my degree finished??.. is that possible??


 
Thats not really possible without out at least a degree. You could ask to observe classes in schools and then get your foot in the door that way,


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## timbobalula (13 Sep 2010)

Dear Sir/Madame,

I have an honours degree in business studies and event management from Limerick Institute of Technology. I graduated in October 2008 and I have travelled and lived in the UK and America for a good while. I just came back to Ireland and I am thinking of doing a higher diploma to teach business. one of my mates went and did her h dip in swansea in wales as they funded her education over there. I am thinking of applying to places in the UK but also could you advise me of the best places to do it in Ireland. With my degree is it just business I could teach? Also if I did a masters in Marketing does that qualify me to lecture in Institutes and Universities? Cheers

Tim


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## lionstour (15 Sep 2010)

timbobalula said:


> Dear Sir/Madame,
> 
> I have an honours degree in business studies and event management from Limerick Institute of Technology. I graduated in October 2008 and I have travelled and lived in the UK and America for a good while. I just came back to Ireland and I am thinking of doing a higher diploma to teach business. one of my mates went and did her h dip in swansea in wales as they funded her education over there. I am thinking of applying to places in the UK but also could you advise me of the best places to do it in Ireland. With my degree is it just business I could teach? Also if I did a masters in Marketing does that qualify me to lecture in Institutes and Universities? Cheers
> 
> Tim


 
Check with the teaching council that your degree is recognised for the purpose of teaching business in ireland.


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## mimmi (16 Sep 2010)

Is it really still possible to get subbing work as a non-qualified? There are loads of newly qualified teachers looking for work and schools are making cut backs. I think the Teaching Council who works on behalf of the Dept of Ed would really rather there were no unqualifed teachers in our schools, hence the whole Registration process. Today in the IrishTimes there is a headline about poor maths JC results, which is yet more armory for the arguement that teachers should be qualifed to teach their subject.

Business studies graduates are subject to a quota for PGDEs. I think being able to teach two subjects is a must these days and at the moment there seems to be a great deal of interest in maths judging by posts I have seen on other boards.


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## Bigbird (21 Sep 2010)

www.educationposts.ie 

The above site will give you a good idea for the demand of Secondary school teachers in your choosen area.

While I admire your ethusiastic nature it is also important to say that you may run into problems securing full-time work unless a principal has promised you otherwise.  

In other words you may have to sub for a few years and eventually you may fall into it. It goes without saying that there are financial implications to this kind of work. 

Educationposts.ie has good chat forums.  Post your idea on there and qualified secondary school teachers who are seeking work at the moment will no doubt respond together with those who were fortunate enough to obtain full-time contract work.

Good luck.

BB


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## Chello (21 Sep 2011)

I'm really curious as to how the original poster "youngman" got on with his/her plans. It looks like the username is not valid any more, but if you're still out there, I'd love to hear from you. I'm applying to do a H-Dip next year. Anyone else out there who did it recently and how are you getting on with jobs? Thanks.


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