# Low cost Legal Fees



## ninsaga (17 Feb 2006)

There have been a number of offerings emerging in relation to low cost legal fees associated with residential buying/selling ie....

- REA
- Homebuyhomesell.ie
- ezhome.ie

....just noticed another one y'day called [broken link removed] that are advertising in Cork & Limerick.

Guess it comes to show that the time for excessive legal fees associated with home buying & selling is becoming a thing of the past. All good for the consumer of course!

ninsaga

_Note: I am not associated in anyway with any of the above companies_


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2006)

ninsaga said:
			
		

> Guess it comes to show that the time for excessive legal fees associated with home buying & selling is becoming a thing of the past.


Some of the offers pitched as low cost services (e.g. €x + VAT + outlay) can actually work out more expensive than going to another independent solicitor whose professional conveyancing fee (€x) will actually be lower. Don't assume that the "discount" offers are necessarily the best. Shop around. And not just on price alone either.


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## LollyMc (17 Feb 2006)

I asked Homelawdirect for a quote as I will be selling and buying and it was in the region of 3k, which isnt overly expensive but I got a better deal by using a solicitor that we do business with thru my employer.  Some of the firms I asked were unbelievably expensive, one firm was 4.5k. I dont know if this is cheap in Dublin or whereever but in Limerick to me its expensive.   Def shop around -


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## LizardKing (17 Feb 2006)

I need to get a solicitor to do the legal conveyancing on a new apartment I have bought. Anyone got any recommenadations ??  ( cheap and reliable service wanted)

p.s I have my mortgage already so don't need the all - in - one offerings


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## CCOVICH (17 Feb 2006)

Have you searched the board for recommendations?  There are many threads on this issue and a key post as well. A lot will depend on where you are based, so you might want to edit your post to include this info.


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## irishpancake (17 Feb 2006)

i personally would not trust an outfit which publishes the following on their web-site:



> Interest only mortgages
> 
> This is sometimes called a tracker mortgage . You only pay interest instead of capital which makes for lower repayments. Not all lending institutions offer this option. We at homelawdirect can offer you strong financial advice in respect of the best option for you.
> 
> It may be worth considering taking an interest only mortgage for a specified period of time agreed with your lending institution & thereafter paying capital & interest.



see [broken link removed]


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## Sarah W (17 Feb 2006)

Wow!

Sarah


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## LizardKing (17 Feb 2006)

I'm based in dublin , sorry did not see the key posts ... as part of the package for the apt. complex theres an offer from solicitors for conveyance + vat + outlay of €1700 ... that seems quite reasonable , correct ?


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2006)

What is the €1,700 figure? Solicitor's conveyancing fee only? Or fee plus outlay? Or an all encompassing figure including _VAT_?

Normally the only a priori hard/known figure is the solicitor's conveyancing fee (which should be anywhere from €600 to €1,000 or even higher as far as I know). The outlay cannot normally be accurately estimated up front but only when the work is done. Or maybe here they know enough to be able to do this for a flat rate in this case? On the face of it I reckon that €1,700 in total would not be excessive but (a) I'm not clear if this is an all encompassing figure and (b) the fee alone says nothing about the quality of the service that you will get. €1,700 would be very expensive if it turned out that they got a rookie or incompetent solicitor to do the job and they missed some obvious or subtle problem!


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## CCOVICH (17 Feb 2006)

I can't recall exactly how much we paid-€1700 sounds roughly familiar.  For that we got an utterly incompetent trainee, and the solicitor they were dealing with was also a trainee.  I doubt that fully qualified and experienced solicitors get invloved in straightforward conveyancing cases (e.g. new apartments etc.).


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## LizardKing (17 Feb 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> What is the €1,700 figure? Solicitor's conveyancing fee only? Or fee plus outlay? Or an all encompassing figure including _VAT_?
> 
> Normally the only a priori hard/known figure is the solicitor's conveyancing fee (which should be anywhere from €600 to €1,000 or even higher as far as I know). The outlay cannot normally be accurately estimated up front but only when the work is done. Or maybe here they know enough to be able to do this for a flat rate in this case? On the face of it I reckon that €1,700 in total would not be excessive but (a) I'm not clear if this is an all encompassing figure and (b) the fee alone says nothing about the quality of the service that you will get. €1,700 would be very expensive if it turned out that they got a rookie or incompetent solicitor to do the job and they missed some obvious or subtle problem!



I think its €1700 and this includes the outlay and vat .... (have the leaflet @ home )


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2006)

On a related note I saw a solicitor going through a property deed in the local coffee shop the other day and she seemed to be scanning it (I can't believe that she was actually reading it) at a rate of about 12 pages per minute. Assuming that this was a conveyancing job (admittedly a big, but not necessarily outlandish, assumption) would this be normal? Is it really just a case of looking for exceptions from the norm by scanning the doc rather than reading it in detail?


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2006)

LizardKing said:
			
		

> I think its €1700 and this includes the outlay and vat .... (have the leaflet @ home )


Whatever the price it would be prudent to shop around anyway and try to get good recommendations from trusted family, friends and colleagues. I personally would prioritise reliability over price but would obviously try to keep price low too.


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## Molly (17 Feb 2006)

> Interest only mortgages
> 
> This is sometimes called a tracker mortgage . You only pay interest instead of capital which makes for lower repayments. Not all lending institutions offer this option. We at homelawdirect can offer you strong financial advice in respect of the best option for you.
> 
> It may be worth considering taking an interest only mortgage for a specified period of time agreed with your lending institution & thereafter paying capital & interest.


   ..... strong financial advice hey???


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2006)

Maybe I'm dumb but I don't see what the fundamental problem is with that extract other than the fact that they are confusing trackers and interest only mortgages? Or is that the point?


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## CCOVICH (17 Feb 2006)

I reckon so, and that's bad enough if you ask me.


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2006)

Fair enough.


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## LizardKing (17 Feb 2006)

Heres the listing from the leaflet I got ... 

Professional Fees including VAT - €1,374

Compulsory outlay (not subject to VAT)
Land Registry Fee on deed - €85
Land Registry Fee for folio and plan - €25
Certificate of charge - €6
Searches - €170
Swearing on affidavits - €40

Total : - €1700

Price Excludes stamp duty 
(not relevant to me , 1st time buyer of new property less than 125 sqm)


My Sister works in a solicitors office and has said this is a good offer , as you could pay anything up to €2500 for conveyancing ...


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## ninsaga (17 Feb 2006)

I would have understood that their profession fee was €950 + VAT = €1149 as opposed to the €1374 they quoted you.

ninsaga


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## ClubMan (17 Feb 2006)

LizardKing said:
			
		

> Price Excludes stamp duty
> (not relevant to me , 1st time buyer of new property less than 125 sqm)


 Not necessarily - stamp duty at 0.1% subject to a cap of €630 is charged on mortgages in excess of €254K unless the rules or rates/amounts have changed this [broken link removed] was published. This is separate from _SD _on the property itself which is 0% for _FTBs _of new properties under 125sqm.


> My Sister works in a solicitors office and has said this is a good offer , as you could pay anything up to €2500 for conveyancing ...


 Once again - price alone should not be the main or only arbiter here.


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## LizardKing (20 Feb 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Not necessarily - stamp duty at 0.1% subject to a cap of €630 is charged on mortgages in excess of €254K unless the rules or rates/amounts have changed this [broken link removed] was published. This is separate from _SD _on the property itself which is 0% for _FTBs _of new properties under 125sqm.
> Once again - price alone should not be the main or only arbiter here.



Cheers was not aware of the 0.1% stamp duty  ... also I understand the cheapest may not be the best ...


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## boskonay (24 Feb 2006)

Anyone recommend a cost effective solicitor for conveyancy?

We've just been quoted over 12 grand in legal fees (excluding stamps and outlays) for a conveyancy


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## ClubMan (24 Feb 2006)

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=23142


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## collieb (9 Mar 2006)

I just got an offer from solicitors of €850 plus VAT plus outlay.

HBowever, under Land registry Fees is €500 for Transfer, plus another €280 down as 'estimated fees payable to professional law searches'. All in all works out at just over 2,000!! Seems a bit expensive when basic fee given as 845 plus VAT!!


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## ClubMan (9 Mar 2006)

That's more or less what I and others have been saying all along! Don't be mislead by headline figures that quote only the solicitor's professional conveyancing fee. The total (fee plus _VAT _plus outlay) needs to be considered. Certain charges are fixed and not negotiable or under the solicitor's control (e.g. the ones that you mention).


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## Sarah W (9 Mar 2006)

For house purchases with a mortgage over €250,000 REA charge a fee for the conveyancing of €499 + VAT and outlays irrespective of the purchase price of the property.

Sarah

www.rea.ie


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## Vanilla (9 Mar 2006)

Firstly I thought AAM had a strict no-advertising policy?

Secondly, out of interest and just to elaborate on the fee of €499, can I ask a few questions? Do you have a panel of solicitors throughout the country? Are they actually paid €499 or is there an element of commission splitting to make up a higher fee?


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## Sarah W (9 Mar 2006)

I wasn't advertising - just advising the OP of our low cost legal fee package.

REA has a panel of solicitors in the areas where we have offices (Dublin, Swords, Newbridge,Bray, Gorey and Waterford) and that the level of communication/cooperation between REA and these solicitors is excellent as - unlike other firms linking to a panel of solicitors - all of these solicitors are connected real time to REA's IT systems so the integration of services from solicitor and broker are more streamlined.* Since 1996 REA has been using the mortgage commission paid by the banks to lower solicitors fees for our clients - so yes we use part of our commission to pay a market rate to the solicitors on our panel.

Sarah

www.rea.ie


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## Vanilla (9 Mar 2006)

Re the advertising, that is not a matter for me to decide obviously, nor would I want to, although certainly my opinion would be that you are indeed advertising. 

It's good to have the actual offer clarified for those who do not know that such low fees are available because of the large commissions involved and the splitting of same.  Are such commissions are around 1% of the mortgage amount?  So therefore It is therefore similar to that offered by other companies in the past, where there is a package offered between tied solicitors and brokers who can afford to advertise a 'lower legal fee' because in actual fact the commission is split between the broker and solicitor. Although I hasten to add, it may still be very attractive to people who cannot get all or portion of the commission back from their broker independantly.


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## Petal (9 Mar 2006)

I think Primafinance do something similar to REA, I think they charge 600 Euros and I've also come across "easymortgages" who give you back 800 Euros if you arrange your mortgage through them. Not sure about all the exact ins and outs though. I've read here before that someone went to their bank and said they would try and get their mortgage through a broker because of the reduced legal fees and the bank then subsidised it (this way they're saving obviously) so that's another route to explore...


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## Sarah W (9 Mar 2006)

Petal said:
			
		

> ......and the bank then subsidised it (this way they're saving obviously) so that's another route to explore...



It's a fallacy that banks save if you go to them directly rather than through a broker - to process a direct application a bank has to rent or buy retail premises, hire and train staff, etc, etc, etc. When an application goes via a broker it goes directly into an underwriter/broker centre so all those initial costs are bypassed which is why lenders are able to pay brokers. 

Sarah

www.rea.ie


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## MOB (9 Mar 2006)

Hi Sara, Hi Vanilla;

I am confused.  

As a solicitor, I dislike offers of "low cost legal fees" in circumstances where it is not made clear to Joe Public that what is actually involved is a subsidy from the broker to the solicitor.  I have always felt that cross-subsidisation arrangements such as this lack transparency, and that transparency is always a good thing for the consumer. Of course, it also puts a falsely low price on the solicitor's work, so in this particular context, I have a self interested reason for disliking it.

I like (well I thought I liked) the REA business model because my understanding was that it involved hard, up-front disclosure of mortgage broker commissions, in that they were fully refunded to the client.  My understanding was that the REA fee was, therefore, the genuine full cost of the service (including broker and solicitor).  

Has this business model changed?  I would be sorry if it had.  A lower headline figure might sell better, but I have always admired the idealism of the REA business model (as I understood it).

rgds.


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## Petal (9 Mar 2006)

Sorry Sarah, I'm definitely not the expert on any of these issues, I am just looking at all the different options and whatever works out the cheapest in the end for me suits me. I'll explore all the different options once I've gone sale agreed on a property (might well end up with REA)  I'll keep you all posted!


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## ClubMan (9 Mar 2006)

Sarah W said:
			
		

> It's a fallacy that banks save if you go to them directly rather than through a broker


Surely it's *potentially *a fallacy? Surely some institutions can manage this so that it is not a loss maker?


> to process a direct application a bank has to rent or buy retail premises


Not necessarily - they may not have a retail branch presence and they could always outsource the activity or operate it part time at arm's length?


> When an application goes via a broker it goes directly into an underwriter/broker centre so all those initial costs are bypassed which is why lenders are able to pay brokers.


Again surely this is one possible model but not necessarily the rule. I don't see how this all necessarily means that a financial institution can't potentially manage/arrange things so that they can deal directly with applications and yet make money.


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## Sarah W (10 Mar 2006)

MOB said:
			
		

> Hi Sara, Hi Vanilla;
> 
> I am confused.
> 
> ...



Hi MOB,

I understand your sentiments but the bottom line is what's best for the client and the new package saves on both cash and cashflow. I'll give you an example.

Lets assume a mortgage of €350,000. Under the old package the REA fee would be €3495 + VAT (€4228.95) to include the solicitor's fee but excluding outlay. This would have been paid on completion and within 90 days the client would have received the commission refund of €3500 meaning a net cost of €728.95. Pretty good but the delay in receiving the commission was a problem, especially for first time buyers. 

Now they pay €499 + VAT or €603.79 on completion which saves €125.16 but more importantly they don't have to wait for the refund. Clients can of course opt for the old package if they prefer but when we introduced it we offered it to all existing clients who had signed up on the old terms and everyone decided to switch!

Sarah

www.rea.ie


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## Vanilla (10 Mar 2006)

In the interests of complete clarity, then, assuming the mortgage amount of €350,000.00 and taking it that the client pays €499 plus VAT towards legal fees, what commission or fee does REA get ( I assume there is a range depending on the financial institution) and what fee does the solicitor actually get?


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## MOB (10 Mar 2006)

hi Sarah,

If I understand you correctly, there is a V.A.T. cost of €733.95 under the old arrrangement, but a V.A.T. cost of only €104.79 under the new.  The V.A.T. saving of €629.16 is certainly a compelling argument in favour of the newer business model (if I understand it correctly);  A win-win scenario in fact.

However, you can understand why a practising solicitor might feel miffed that the legal fees are advertised as being as low as €500.   

It creates a false impression that this work can be viably done for this kind of money.

An advertisment which stated "you pay x toward legal fees, we pay the rest" would be more accurate, though I accept it is not as "soundbitey" and appealing to the consumer.

I share Vanilla's curiousity as to what your panel solicitors actually get paid, but I respect that there may be an element of commercial confidentiality to this.  
rgds


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## ubiquitous (10 Mar 2006)

There is no VAT saving arising from the above proposal. If there is, it is almost certainly illusory and would be highly likely to be deemed invalid by the Revenue if/when it comes to their attention. The VAT code prohibits taxpayers from making VAT savings by cross-subsidising VAT-exempt receipts or activities (in this case commission receipts) with VATable receipts (eg legal fees). To get around this, it is necessary for the provider of the legal service to account for VAT on the full commercial value of their service. Presumably the panel solicitors do this when billing REA for their services?


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## MOB (10 Mar 2006)

I hadn't thought of that.   However, that would reduce - but not abolish - the V.A.T. benefit.  Remember, it is only the legal fee which is liable to V.A.T., so if you assume a "full value" legal fee of €1,000, the V.A.T. cost under the new business model would still only be €210.00.


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## ubiquitous (10 Mar 2006)

True.


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## L_earner (18 Sep 2006)

ClubMan said:


> €1,700 would be very expensive if it turned out that they got a rookie or incompetent solicitor to do the job and they missed some obvious or subtle problem!


Spot on there. There are some solicitors in Cork offering a flat rate less than €1000 plus VAT for their professional fees. This is excellent value only if they have experience and know what they are doing.


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## annie1 (26 Sep 2006)

hi all

I bought my apartment this year and paid €895 plus vat and outlays....it came to €1280 *TOTAL*. My solicitors were Cunningham McCormack on Leeson St (01 6699030) and I had no problems with them at all....professional and efficient.


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## ClubMan (26 Sep 2006)

No offence but first time posters recommending product/service providers need to be treated with a certain amount of caution.


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## annie1 (26 Sep 2006)

I appreciate that. However, I have absolutely no connection with the solicitors I mentioned, just a satisfied customer!


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## Oracle24 (1 Oct 2006)

Should the value of the property being sold have any bearing the convayancing/legal fees?I know someone about to see for about €4-5M and they've been quoted from 15K to 30K for fees depending on the solicitor. Seems like a major rip off.


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## liteweight (1 Oct 2006)

I don't think the value of the property should have any bearing whatsoever. Conveyancing is conveyancing is conveyancing!!


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## Oracle24 (1 Oct 2006)

Thanks for that. I took a look at that websie lowcostlegal.ie but it was throwing out some made calculation for the cost off selling the house - 450K! I put selling price in of €5M - what is 'stamp duty on purchase deed'?

Legal Fee€900VAT @ 21%€189Subtotal€1089Outlays not chargeble to VATStamp Duty on Purchase Deed€450000Stamp Duty on Mortgage€0Stamp Duty on Counterpart Mortgage€12.5Stamp Duty on Assignment of Life Policy€12.5   Land Registry Fees on Purchase Deed€625Land Registry Fees on Mortgage€0Land Registry Fees on Certificate of Charge€0Land Registry Fees on Copy Folio€25Land Registry Fees for New Folio€0   Commissioners for Oaths€20   Search Fees€70   Subtotal€450765   *GRAND TOTAL**€**451854*


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## Askar (1 Oct 2006)

Baz 2005,

What is your point? If stamp duty i.e. government tax on a €5 million gaff is 9%? The point is the legal fee, the outlay are primarily government taxes/charges. How is this a 'made calculation' for the 'cost off' selling the house??????


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## Oracle24 (1 Oct 2006)

huh? how did the calculation come up with 450K?


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## Askar (1 Oct 2006)

It's the 9% of €5 million! However, this tax is paid by the purchaser, not the seller, which may be your point, since you are talking about the cost of selling the house???


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## Oracle24 (2 Oct 2006)

Aha... thanks. So that crowd are saying that they will complete ALL the legal work on the sale of €4M property for €1854? Sounds too good to be true but I'll have to check it out!


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## Askar (4 May 2007)

cheap looking website as well!!

I tried lowcostlegal but the terms and conditions put me off (€300 p/h if reminders etc required)- the fixed price was not as fixed as indicated. Another €300 (33%) was added on to the advertised fixed price when I mentioned that I was selling an apartment (the cost of getting a letter from the management company), and this was not mentioned on website or when I gave my details originally. Also, I was told that the file tracker system which they claim to have on their website was not operational.  So no access to a file tracker system to check out what is going on (which is quite a common service in the UK).

At the end of the day you get what you pay for.


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## Oracle24 (17 May 2007)

Am about to put my house on market and should get approx 900K (8yr old house). House I'm looking to buy is about €1M (30yr old house). Realistically, how much approx should total legal costs come to?


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## Gav2 (18 May 2007)

I worry about low cost solicitors suggest people look at post re dealing numbers. I know a solicitor who will do purchase for €400 but you have to get him off the bar stool every day to deal with it. What people dont realise is the amount of work done after the closing. If your solicitor holds on to the deeds and doesnt registrar them your sale could fall through in future, even years later. If you shop around you should get fee €1000 for sale and same for purschse plus VAT and OUTLAY.


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