# Booster jabs v Global Roll out



## Paul O Mahoney (18 Sep 2021)

I didn't foresee the debate that has now begun on the issue of booster jabs which primarily will be given in western countries. 
I personally thought that manufacturing of vaccines would now be a lot more than it is now and the dual projects of rolling out vaccines to poorer countries  and booster jabs initially to those vulnerable people in western countries .

Most scientists Ive heard/read are totally against the booster jabs being rolled out now as there are vast swathes of the planet with little or no vaccines and with prospects of getting enough is not looking promising. 

42% of the global population has had a least one jab, the important one, with 1.9% in Africa. 
Israel, for example has mandated that all over 12s will get the booster and has began its administration. 

The head of the WHO thinks its immoral,  South Africa thinks its apartheid in a new form, and the African head of the WHO says the global economy has developed complex and robust distribution channels and if vaccines were sent to Africa the infrastructure in Africa would allow them to be used quickly,  unlike say 20/30 years ago .

The Lancet is a recent report said the there is no need for booster jabs as there is no evidence yet that they add anything more to immunity. 

The question is whether anyone here would be willing to forgo a booster in the coming months if it meant that those doses would be distributed to poorer countries.


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## Leper (18 Sep 2021)

I'm saying No. If a 3rd dose of any vaccine is made available to me, I'll take it on the following (no partular order):-
1. It'll make me feel safer.
2. It's free.
3. I believe lots of aid sent to 3rd World Countries never get to the intended destination or people.
4. Even articles in the Lancet informing us there is no need for the booster don't hold too much weight for me.
5. If I refuse 3rd dose, it does the rest of the Irish community no favours.
6. Since Covid I have an Ireland-First policy.
7. How much will be paid to Irish "charities" for eventual delivery etc. With many rip off stories in the Irish charity sector I've lost faith in the so called charity organisations.


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## Paul O Mahoney (18 Sep 2021)

My answer would be yes, I would forgo the booster, but when I think of my elderly parents my views change a little and would like to see them getting it.

This is a not an easy question or proposal to answer. There are certain sections of society that will need the booster,  vulnerable,  elderly and frontline staff.

And of course there are risks involved with having a population with weakened immunity,  perhaps an increase in virus circulation which could place us back at the base of the hill we just climbed. 

I watching the documentary on the 4 civilian astronauts last night and a comment stuck with me , " when they see the Earth from their vantage point they won't see borders that we go to war over, they won't see the poverty or inequality that we know exists, they'll see oceans, deserts and forests on a piece of rock in a vast universe,  a very vulnerable planet ".


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## Paul O Mahoney (18 Sep 2021)

Leper said:


> If a 3rd dose of any vaccine is made available to me, I'll take it on the following (no partular order):-
> 1. It'll make me feel safer.
> 2. It's free.
> 3. I believe lots of aid sent to 3rd World Countries never get to the intended destination or people.
> ...


Ok I'm a little taken aback by these reasons especially from knowing your other views and the work you have done during your life.

But I'm particularly taken back by 6 and "Ireland-First policy", we are only in the position we are in due to EU membership and perhaps to a lesser degree the fact that one of the main manufacturers has a large presence here and will be producing drug substance for their vaccine soon.

If we weren't in that position would we have the percentage of the population vaccinated that we have if we were say like another small country?

We are fortunate that the decision was made in the late 60s to persue EEC membership,  had we failed we probably wouldn't have the industry we have and would probably be in a similar situation to say Albania.

Additionally perusing a nationalist policy is something that only causes more harm to a country.

I get that in the past Aid to poorer countries get "diverted" but during the Ebola crisis recently the checks and balances put in by the WHO and international organisations did achieve a very large rollout of that vaccine to the population at large.

On the Lancet,  there probably is a need for more information on the length of time the vaccines protect but I wouldn't be throwing its present view out with the baby.

And finally if the vaccine was mixed with the flu vaccine would you still take it? and if the booster came a a pill, which is very possible would you still take it?


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## Leper (18 Sep 2021)

Fair comment, Paul. But, I'm turned off completely by the amount of gangsters there are involved in the "Charity" Industry. Many of them use the charities for their own well being. Living near me, there are two leading lights in the Charity Industry. It's their sole occupation and have recruited their families into the game. Very few looking in here could afford their lifestyle and the houses in which they live not to mention their extensive holiday homes abroad. Ask yourself who is paying for this?

If anybody doubts what I am saying take a look at some of the websites and advertising these businesses (I'm refusing to call them Charities) do. You'll see the CEO photographed with some glamorous model brought especially in for the photo-shoot. Then there's the family back up with huge salaries for sealing envelopes and managing to walk to some post-box after dining in some expensive restaurant. The on-the-ground workers in these businesses must get a bit browned off too seeing the CEO and family living in unbelievable luxury while they give their time and efforts for free. 

There must be a better way and I'll admit I can't see it. And . . . . . . . . I wish I were wrong.


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## Paul O Mahoney (18 Sep 2021)

Leper said:


> Fair comment, Paul. But, I'm turned off completely by the amount of gangsters there are involved in the "Charity" Industry. Many of them use the charities for their own well being. Living near me, there are two leading lights in the Charity Industry. It's their sole occupation and have recruited their families into the game. Very few looking in here could afford their lifestyle and the houses in which they live not to mention their extensive holiday homes abroad. Ask yourself who is paying for this?
> 
> If anybody doubts what I am saying take a look at some of the websites and advertising these businesses (I'm refusing to call them Charities) do. You'll see the CEO photographed with some glamorous model brought especially in for the photo-shoot. Then there's the family back up with huge salaries for sealing envelopes and managing to walk to some post-box after dining in some expensive restaurant. The on-the-ground workers in these businesses must get a bit browned off too seeing the CEO and family living in unbelievable luxury while they give their time and efforts for free.
> 
> There must be a better way and I'll admit I can't see it. And . . . . . . . . I wish I were wrong.


Look at mine no payments to directors we aren't all gangsters and do believe in Altruism.  And I know what you were saying it's just that perhaps just perhaps the lessons of the past might be forgotten?

Jaysus, 54 and I'm still idealistic.


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## Kimmagegirl (19 Sep 2021)

Back in the year 2000 we were all given a Millennium tree. These must be a grand size by now.

I would be happy to donate my tree to fund a batch of vaccines to whoever needs them.


In fact, I also have some share certificates for Bula Mines, Atlantic Resources, Eircom, Waterford Wedgewood.......that could be sold to anyone interested......although I am not sure exactly how many shares I actually have, because of all the rights issues, share splits and consolidations, over the years.  Lots of money lying around in unsold shares and dormant accounts.  Even a few bus tickets, that I am owed money on.

The above kind of reminds me of the Irish Charities.....not actually knowing what is happening to my €1 donation or investment.

I would be happy to donate to fund vaccines for poorer countries, if I knew that the charity, dictator, warlord did not have their hand in the greasy till.


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## joer (19 Sep 2021)

I agree that there are too many hands in the greasy tills nowadays , unfortunately. I would be very choosey as to what charities I would donate to.


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## Paul O Mahoney (19 Sep 2021)

We've gotten off topic a bit,  any views on the OP ?


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## Kimmagegirl (19 Sep 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> We've gotten off topic a bit, any views on the OP ?


Yes. You are back....


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## Paul O Mahoney (19 Sep 2021)

Kimmagegirl said:


> Yes. You are back....


Thought OP meant opening post,  I'm but a mere novice with this interwebby yoke and all the abbreviations that ride with it.


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## SoylentGreen (20 Sep 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Thought OP meant opening post, I'm but a mere novice with this interwebby yoke and all the abbreviations that ride with it.


I think Kimmage Girl was alluding to the fact that you were trying to control the direction of "your" thread.



Kimmagegirl said:


> Lots of money lying around in unsold shares and dormant accounts


I know for a fact that I have a couple of dormant accounts in the EBS Building Society. Nobody from that organisation has ever tried to contact me in any way to remind me that these accounts are still there. Nearly 20 years now.

I would be happy to give a donation toward vaccines for poorer countries or donate the funds in my dormant account to a reputable organisation that will not waste one vaccine.

However, I want my booster. I have my two jabs but I am not as confident as I was when I was getting my first jab. My confidence has waned a bit. Mainly to the fact that we still continue to have high daily cases of Covid, despite 90% of the country being fully vaccinated. Something's not quite right. Are we not being told the full story about the efficacy of the vaccines?


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## Paul O Mahoney (20 Sep 2021)

I wasn't specifically talking about donations to NGOs or anyone I was more thinking about not taking up the booster jab if it meant more vaccines were sent to poorer countries.


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## Purple (22 Sep 2021)

I think the entire vaccination program has been immoral. The WHO called it immoral in March. I'm 48 and in good health. There's no way I should have been vaccinated before everyone over 75 everywhere was vaccinated. Now they are talking about booster shots? That's just crazy. 
If the people who were not vaccinated yet weren't poor and black and brown there'd be a whole different conversation right now. 

The fact that variants develop in unvaccinated populations should be reason enough to oppose this, even if you haven't a shred of empathy or morality. 

I find this utterly disgusting and reprehensible.


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## Graftgirl (22 Sep 2021)

you are all aware of the numbers right?......not the daily fear drilling numbers but the Vaccination deaths and injuries. for example the EUDRA Vigilance which is the European reporting system for the injured and deaths which is also known to be severely under reported as the reporting system is extremely laborious (9 page document and difficult to report neurological symptoms) over 24000 dead and 2, 190,500 injuries. the American system for reporting adverse reactions and deaths is called the VAERS, please look up its all public government data. I am amazed to hear so much discussion on figures and not much mention of these figures...


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## odyssey06 (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> you are all aware of the numbers right?......not the daily fear drilling numbers but the Vaccination deaths and injuries. for example the EUDRA Vigilance which is the European reporting system for the injured and deaths which is also known to be severely under reported as the reporting system is extremely laborious (9 page document and difficult to report neurological symptoms) over 24000 dead and 2, 190,500 injuries. the American system for reporting adverse reactions and deaths is called the VAERS, please look up its all public government data. I am amazed to hear so much discussion on figures and not much mention of these figures...


This is disinformation.

It does not mean 24000 people died *from *taking a vaccine. It means that 24000 people died after taking a vaccine.
Either you are not aware enough to know this and have been fooled by people spreading fake news, or you do know this and are deliberately spreading fake news. Either way it's fake news and you need to stop spreading it or increase your baloney detection skills.

This scurrilous nonsense as been completely debunked by multiple reputable news organistions.
_“Many suspected ADRs reported on a Yellow Card do not have any relation to the vaccine or medicine and it is often coincidental that they both occurred around the same time,” an MHRA representative told Reuters in a previous fact check_








						Fact Check-Video misinterprets data of possible adverse drug reactions reported to the Yellow Card scheme
					

A video on social media has spread misinformation about the numbers of possible adverse drug reactions reported to the UK’s Yellow Card scheme.




					www.reuters.com
				











						Fact Check-VAERS data does not prove COVID-19 vaccine deaths exceeded 12,000
					

Posts sharing incorrect incident numbers reported to the U.S. Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) are missing context.




					www.reuters.com
				











						Fact check: 3,150 people were not ‘paralyzed’ after receiving COVID-19 vaccine
					

An article circulating on social media says a report by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) indicated that “3,150 persons were paralyzed” after receiving the COVID-19 vaccine. The article is missing context.




					www.reuters.com


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## Purple (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> you are all aware of the numbers right?......not the daily fear drilling numbers but the Vaccination deaths and injuries. for example the EUDRA Vigilance which is the European reporting system for the injured and deaths which is also known to be severely under reported as the reporting system is extremely laborious (9 page document and difficult to report neurological symptoms) over 24000 dead and 2, 190,500 injuries. the American system for reporting adverse reactions and deaths is called the VAERS, please look up its all public government data. I am amazed to hear so much discussion on figures and not much mention of these figures...


Still tilting at Windmills I see.


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## Graftgirl (22 Sep 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> This is disinformation.
> 
> It does not mean 24000 people died *from *taking a vaccine. It means that 24000 people died after taking a vaccine.
> Either you are not aware enough to know this and have been fooled by people spreading fake news, or you do know this and are deliberately spreading fake news. Either way it's fake news and you need to stop spreading it or increase your baloney detection skills.
> ...


Why would you jump straight to make the point that I am someone trying to spread fake news? why would someone do that anyway I'm wondering....Im well able to decipher fake information from scaremongering and fear drilling.... the CDC have a new interesting rule.. if someone were to pass away within 14 days of the Vaccine, their death is recorded as being an unvaccinated death.. so not linked to the Vaccine.
Reuters is not a reliable source for anything, you dont think it possible for the media to be bought out at all, that there are financial incentives, follow the money back, they are linked to Pfizer, you know the company that had the biggest fine paid out in 2009 for 2.9Billion for bribing doctors and suppressing the results of medical trials...


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## Purple (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> the CDC have a new interesting rule.. if someone were to pass away within 14 days of the Vaccine, their death is recorded as being an unvaccinated death.. so not linked to the Vaccine.


Probably because it takes 14 days for the vaccine to become effective and offer protection.


Graftgirl said:


> Reuters is not a reliable source for anything, you dont think it possible for the media to be bought out at all, that there are financial incentives, follow the money back, they are linked to Pfizer


Jim/James Smith, CEO of Reuters, is also on the board of Pfizer. What do you mean by 'follow the money'?
Do his dual roles mean that everyone working in Pfizer is compromised and every journalist in Reuters is dishonest? Between the two companies we're talking about over 100,000 people.


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## Graftgirl (22 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> Still tilting at Windmills I see.


Still? I dont think we have ever exchanged dialogue before have we?


Purple said:


> Probably because it takes 14 days for the vaccine to become effective and offer protection.
> 
> Jim/James Smith, CEO of Reuters, is also on the board of Pfizer. What do you mean by 'follow the money'?
> Do his dual roles mean that everyone working in Pfizer is compromised and every journalist in Reuters is dishonest? Between the two companies we're talking about over 100,000 people.


That means there is a conflict of interest in my opinion..no not everyone in an organisation is aware of what goes on at upper levels..Fact checkers is financed by Pfizer that is not independent or reliable.. what do you think the big fine was for in 2009, you dont think its at all possible that there could be any lies being told from anywhere.. I am not ignoring any information, that's just not intelligent to me at the moment, I can see and hear alot of propaganda too, you think the 24/7 promotion of the flu was normal, are you aware of the level of funding that went through our media, its massive and its fairly one-sided which I find unusual..


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## michaelm (22 Sep 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> It does not mean 24000 people died *from *taking a vaccine. It means that 24000 people died after taking a vaccine.


This is an important distinction.  I'd be interested to see the Covid hospital/ICU and death figures more finely tuned to reflect *from* Covid rather than *with* Covid figures. If there are to be any boosters it should be strictly for the vulnerable. Now that everyone has been offered a vaccine it's time to lift all restrictions (before people completely abandon them anyway).


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## odyssey06 (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> Why would you jump straight to make the point that I am someone trying to spread fake news? why would someone do that anyway I'm wondering....Im well able to decipher fake information from scaremongering and fear drilling.... the CDC have a new interesting rule.. if someone were to pass away within 14 days of the Vaccine, their death is recorded as being an unvaccinated death.. so not linked to the Vaccine.
> Reuters is not a reliable source for anything, you dont think it possible for the media to be bought out at all, that there are financial incentives, follow the money back, they are linked to Pfizer, you know the company that had the biggest fine paid out in 2009 for 2.9Billion for bribing doctors and suppressing the results of medical trials...


The Reuters fact checks completely discredit the fake news story you are peddling about how this data is tracked.
Your response isn't to challenge this discrediting of your original point.
But move on to conspiracy theory shady rumours about the big companies and the "media".
As if that undermines in any way the article which shows up your fake news for what it is, and is a classic tactic of those spreading misinformation. Keep changing the goalposts.

The CDC rule is about tracking deaths of covid for vaccinated v unvaccinated individuals.
Within 14 days the vaccine has not become effective in your system so if you pass away from covid you are counted as unvaccinated.
You'll have to explain what this has to do with "so not linked to the Vaccine."
Because you know, otherwise that's another piece of fake news your are spreading.


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## Graftgirl (22 Sep 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> The Reuters fact checks completely discredit the fake news story you are peddling about how this data is tracked.
> Your response isn't to challenge this discrediting of your original point.
> But move on to conspiracy theory shady rumours about the big companies and the "media".
> As if that undermines in any way the article which shows up your fake news for what it is, and is a classic tactic of those spreading misinformation. Keep changing the goalposts.
> ...


So imagine how difficult it is for someone to prove a loved one passed away directly from the Jab if the system makes it difficult to identify by saying the person is unvaccinated if it happens directly after or within a few days. I am aware of people in that situation. I'm trying to makes sense of things by discussion, I don't appreciate being called or filed away in the Conspiracy Theorist box... That is just ignorance if someone jumps to discredit when there is obviously other sides to discussion. I can't ignore the information that I am now are of and I am absolutely open to all sides of a discussion..


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## Purple (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> That means there is a conflict of interest in my opinion..


Does that extend to the entire management of the company and to the FDA, ECB, MCC, PMDA and all other international and national regulatory bodies?


Graftgirl said:


> no not everyone in an organisation is aware of what goes on at upper levels..


True but there are thousands of people involved in the gathering and processing of data.



Graftgirl said:


> Fact checkers is financed by Pfizer that is not independent or reliable..


Who are Fact Checkers?


Graftgirl said:


> what do you think the big fine was for in 2009, you dont think its at all possible that there could be any lies being told from anywhere..


It was for mis selling pain killers. It is important to note that the drug was approved for particular applications and there was no accusation that clinical data or trials or regulatory oversight was compromised. You understand that, right?


Graftgirl said:


> I am not ignoring any information, that's just not intelligent to me at the moment,


Good, but try to understand it too. 


Graftgirl said:


> I can see and hear alot of propaganda too, you think the 24/7 promotion of the flu was normal,


What are you talking about?


Graftgirl said:


> are you aware of the level of funding that went through our media, its massive and its fairly one-sided which I find unusual..


What do you mean by one sided?


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## Purple (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> . I'm trying to makes sense of things by discussion, I don't appreciate being called or filed away in the Conspiracy Theorist box...


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...


Graftgirl said:


> That is just ignorance if someone jumps to discredit when there is obviously other sides to discussion.


I agree. It's just that there isn't any obvious other side to the discussion.


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## Purple (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> So imagine how difficult it is for someone to prove a loved one passed away directly from the Jab if the system makes it difficult to identify by saying the person is unvaccinated if it happens directly after or within a few days. I am aware of people in that situation.


I take it that you are aware that there are autopsies on people who die under suspicious circumstances, or are the doctors in on it too?


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## odyssey06 (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> So imagine how difficult it is for someone to prove a loved one passed away directly from the Jab if the system makes it difficult to identify by saying the person is unvaccinated if it happens directly after or within a few days. I am aware of people in that situation. I'm trying to makes sense of things by discussion, I don't appreciate being called or filed away in the Conspiracy Theorist box... That is just ignorance if someone jumps to discredit when there is obviously other sides to discussion. I can't ignore the information that I am now are of and I am absolutely open to all sides of a discussion..


You are sowing deliberate confusion between two systems and two statistics.

Reporting of adverse vaccine reactions.
Can you find us a source for your claim that how the CDC records statistics of vaccinated v unvaccinated within 14 days now means that an adverse reaction to a vaccine can't be reported on VAERS etc if it occurred within 14 days of receiving vaccine.
An actual source. I don't mean being "aware of people in that situation" because most likely they are lying to you and you have fallen for it.

There's no other side to a discussion when you make a claim that is false. It's either true or false and if I think it's false of course I will to discredit it. If what you are saying was true you would provide supporting information, but you can't, so you resort to words like "other sides to the discussion" and "am aware of people in that situation".


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## odyssey06 (22 Sep 2021)

michaelm said:


> This is an important distinction.  I'd be interested to see the Covid hospital/ICU and death figures more finely tuned to reflect *from* Covid rather than *with* Covid figures. If there are to be any boosters it should be strictly for the vulnerable. Now that everyone has been offered a vaccine it's time to lift all restrictions (before people completely abandon them anyway).


I'd like to see if too but it is in some cases rather difficult... covid can cause heart attacks, stroke. Someone might have a heart attack and survive - were it not for also having covid. 
That's why I haven't, and I don't think to be honest the authorities are using that as the key figure. It's all about hospital and ICU capacity and they can see the surges happening there.
This is just my opinion, but I don't think a disease which killed more people, quickly, but didn't have the same capacity to flood the hospitals, would have lead to such a reaction from governments.


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## Paul O Mahoney (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> you are all aware of the numbers right?......not the daily fear drilling numbers but the Vaccination deaths and injuries. for example the EUDRA Vigilance which is the European reporting system for the injured and deaths which is also known to be severely under reported as the reporting system is extremely laborious (9 page document and difficult to report neurological symptoms) over 24000 dead and 2, 190,500 injuries. the American system for reporting adverse reactions and deaths is called the VAERS, please look up its all public government data. I am amazed to hear so much discussion on figures and not much mention of these figures...


My God ye are still talking rubbish despite the truth being at your fingertips. Ye seem to running out places to post too.


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## Paul O Mahoney (22 Sep 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> I'd like to see if too but it is in some cases rather difficult... covid can cause heart attacks, stroke. Someone might have a heart attack and survive - were it not for also having covid.
> That's why I haven't, and I don't think to be honest the authorities are using that as the key figure. It's all about hospital and ICU capacity and they can see the surges happening there.
> This is just my opinion, but I don't think a disease which killed more people, quickly, but didn't have the same capacity to flood the hospitals, would have lead to such a reaction from governments.


When the mother in law passed the autopsy was so thorough it clearly states that she passed due to heart attack without any evidence of covid being the cause or her having covid,  and she was 91 and vaccinated. 

But these posters aren't going to accept those facts either.


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## Leo (22 Sep 2021)

Graftgirl said:


> So imagine how difficult it is for someone to prove a loved one passed away directly from the Jab if the system makes it difficult to identify by saying the person is unvaccinated if it happens directly after or within a few days. I am aware of people in that situation.


Hold on, why would someone in that situation be relying on data publishing some time later in that system to establish a link with vaccine?

If you really are aware of people in that situation I'd suggest you talk to them to establish some basic facts. What ends up recorded there will have no bearing whatsoever on the establishment of cause, or any subsequent investigation. It's not clinical evidence, won't come into the equation. 

Or are you suggesting that the next of kin of the deceased don't bother reading the actual medical files available to them to establish full details of the interventions made but instead rely on data publicly available on the internet to form their opinions?


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## Purple (22 Sep 2021)

My very elderly grandmother died earlier this year. I know it wasn't Covid related because of the last thing she said to me; "What are you going with that pillow!"



I'll get my coat...


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## demoivre (22 Sep 2021)

The Fake news that is spread the most , and continues to this day, is the MSM classifying positive PCR cases as cases of COVD19. 

A close second is saying we have had about 5,000 deaths from COVID19.

Gives me the lols.


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## Purple (22 Sep 2021)

demoivre said:


> A close second is saying we have had about 5,000 deaths from COVID19.


Most people (anyone who's bothered to think about it for more than a few seconds) know that the total deaths number is people who have died while having Covid. They know it includes the 'of Covid' and  'with Covid' numbers and that it's very hard to separate them out.


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## Leo (22 Sep 2021)

demoivre said:


> The Fake news that is spread the most , and continues to this day, is the MSM classifying positive PCR cases as cases of COVD19.


Indeed, PCR tests are only 98-99% accurate at detecting the presence of covid.



demoivre said:


> A close second is saying we have had about 5,000 deaths from COVID19.


Like the winter flu that is linked to ~200 deaths here in an average year, those people aren't recorded as 'dying of the flu', they die as a result of failure of critical organs with the flu a contributory factor. Same goes for Covid, no one dies 'from covid'.


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## EmmDee (22 Sep 2021)

This reminds me of the religious right in the US pointing out "nobody dies from AIDS" - correct on a technicality but fundamentally bypasses the nature of the condition that it causes the immune system to malfunction causing death from various other causes


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## demoivre (27 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> Most people (anyone who's bothered to think about it for more than a few seconds) know that the total deaths number is people who have died while having Covid. They know it includes the 'of Covid' and  'with Covid' numbers and that it's very hard to separate them out.


All the more reason to talk about the death rate in Ireland over the last number of years which has varied between 0.63% to 0.66% over the last 10 years. It was 0.63% in 2020 which is a lower rate than the previous 5 years. !

The overriding message sent out by the MSM from the off has been one of fear. Rarely, if ever , do they remind us of the tiny CFR, minuscule IFR and the fact that the vast majority of people who contract sars cov2 won't even have to get out a box of tissues !
Sars cov 2 is harmless to most people and many of the most vulnerable people, who should have been looked after, were dumped in to care homes with not an FFP3 mask or antigen test in sight ! The reaction to those whose advice resulted in this debacle  will be a six figure pension instead of a court room.


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## demoivre (27 Sep 2021)

Leo said:


> Indeed, PCR tests are only 98-99% accurate at detecting the presence of covid.



A PCR test doesn't detect or diagnose Covid 19 which is a disease but rather it detects, with varying degrees of accuracy, the presence of sars cov2 in a sample. Covid needs to be diagnosed by a medical professional and would also take in to account clinical observations, patient history , status of any contacts etc.

I'm aware of at least two WHO advisories which emphasized this point .

Yet to this day a positive PCR result is regarded as a case of Covid 19, which in most cases won't be true as the virus is harmless to most people.


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## Purple (27 Sep 2021)

demoivre said:


> A PCR test doesn't detect or diagnose Covid 19 which is a disease but rather it detects, with varying degrees of accuracy, the presence of sars cov2 in a sample. Covid needs to be diagnosed by a medical professional and would also take in to account clinical observations, patient history , status of any contacts etc.
> 
> I'm aware of at least two WHO advisories which emphasized this point .
> 
> Yet to this day a positive PCR result is regarded as a case of Covid 19, which in most cases won't be true as the virus is harmless to most people.


A positive PCR tests tells us that someone can pass on the disease.

How ill someone is is determined by a doctor (for some reason increasingly referred to as a 'Medical Professional'). They will take the patient history, symptoms, and other indicators into account. But that's not the function of a PCR test, or any other test that is designed to detect the virus.


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## Purple (27 Sep 2021)

demoivre said:


> All the more reason to talk about the death rate in Ireland over the last number of years which has varied between 0.63% to 0.66% over the last 10 years. It was 0.63% in 2020 which is a lower rate than the previous 5 years. !
> 
> The overriding message sent out by the MSM from the off has been one of fear. Rarely, if ever , do they remind us of the tiny CFR, minuscule IFR and the fact that the vast majority of people who contract sars cov2 won't even have to get out a box of tissues !


Yep, this is a disease of the old, usually the fat and old. Massive sacrifices were made by the young, who were at almost no serious risk, to protect the old. That's nothing new in this country, we are always defecating on the young for the benefit of the old. That's the way we've chosen to run the country. Actually that's the way the old have chosen to run the country. Old people are rich and entitled. Why would anyone expect them to behave any differently during this pandemic?


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## Sophrosyne (27 Sep 2021)

demoivre said:


> All the more reason to talk about the death rate in Ireland over the last number of years which has varied between 0.63% to 0.66% over the last 10 years. It was 0.63% in 2020 which is a lower rate than the previous 5 years. !



Could you provide a link to the source of the above percentages?


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## Paul O Mahoney (29 Sep 2021)

Purple said:


> Yep, this is a disease of the old, usually the fat and old. Massive sacrifices were made by the young, who were at almost no serious risk, to protect the old. That's nothing new in this country, we are always defecating on the young for the benefit of the old. That's the way we've chosen to run the country. Actually that's the way the old have chosen to run the country. Old people are rich and entitled. Why would anyone expect them to behave any differently during this pandemic?


That's the truth, the older members of our community are in general cherished but it always seems to be a one way street,  they never seem grateful for the contribution of the younger generations.

Ok the argument that they served their time and they should enjoy retirement etc, has merit its  when the country needs to make savings or distribute tax money more equitably then are first on the radio or other media and fighting for "their money ".
But, we should protect them too, and civil society demands that and them getting the vaccine first was part of that responsibility, while most are grateful it's not going be heard by those who waited or had to wait.


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## Sophrosyne (29 Sep 2021)

At the onset Ireland and the rest of the world was in uncharted waters.

Nobody knew how the virus would progress and/or mutate. The previous MERS-CoV had mainly affected 41–60-year-old males.

The health protection measures were mainly to slow the progress of the virus so not to overwhelm the health service and to allow time to set up necessary tracing and treatments and also in the hope of an ameliorating vaccine.

The measures were not just to shield the elderly but also the thousands of younger people on the lengthy vulnerable list.

In the absence of those measures, who can say what the fatality rates or the hospital and ICU admittance rates might have been.

The CSO Vital Statistics release for deaths in the 4 quarters of 2020 suggests that the measures introduced in March 2020 prevented many deaths:


*Quarter**1990*​*2020*​1​Jan-Mar8,618​8,674​+56​2​Apr-Jun7,519​8,582​+1,063​3​Jul-Sep7,358​7,111​-247​4​Oct-Dec7,639​7,398​-241​


Global research is ongoing concerning, inter alia, the short and long-term effect of Covid-19 on the immune system.

It is too soon to be conclusive about health protection measures.


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 Sep 2021)

Sophrosyne said:


> At the onset Ireland and the rest of the world was in uncharted waters.
> 
> Nobody knew how the virus would progress and/or mutate. The previous MERS-CoV had mainly affected 41–60-year-old males.
> 
> ...


Excellent post and while we do concentrate on Ireland and our small population and the ease of which people compiled with the orders to stay at home the entire effort cannot and should not be looked at using one metric ie deaths.

Other countries were not so lucky for example Italy where we saw daily trucks carrying bodies to essentially mass graves in a country that is 2.5 hrs away by plane.The UK deaths in the last 20 months is now double what died in WW2. 

This argument that deaths are only marginally larger is nonsense as its not taking into account the normal deaths that would occur in the country that essentially were reduced when we were locked down .
Only when the analysis is done will we see the true effect of this pandemic not only here but globally and I fear that will not be pleasant reading.

People who continue to push additional death narrative really need to educate themselves as to what exactly happened in the context of the total of society,  hospital admissions for example with covid 19 lead to all other medical care abandoned and saving lives became the primary work and those figures will tell anyone who really wants to understand this virus was/is a  serious risk to people's lives and all the restrictions and laws introduced were necessary.


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## Leo (30 Sep 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> People who continue to push additional death narrative really need to educate themselves as to what exactly happened in the context of the total of society, hospital admissions for example with covid 19 lead to all other medical care abandoned and saving lives became the primary work and those figures will tell anyone who really wants to understand this virus was/is a serious risk to people's lives and all the restrictions and laws introduced were necessary.


I agree the affects of the restrictions were overwhelmingly positive, you just need to look at other countries. In hindsight perhaps they'd tweak a number of the measures, but you'd need a super computer to model the impact of bahavioural and environmental changes that people chose or were forced to adapt to through the course of this. Elderly restricting their movements meant fewer falls with life-shortening injuries, the drop in traffic meant better air quality and fewer people getting stressed in traffic, more people getting out walking and exercising with all the benefits that brings...

It's often suggested the restrictions have had a significant affect on mental health, and it's difficult to measure the impact of that on peoples' lives but suicide was down 20% last year.  However the deferral of of non-critical care will have a quality of life impact on a lot of peoples lives that can't accurately be measured by death statistics.


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 Sep 2021)

Leo said:


> I agree the affects of the restrictions were overwhelmingly positive, you just need to look at other countries. In hindsight perhaps they'd tweak a number of the measures, but you'd need a super computer to model the impact of bahavioural and environmental changes that people chose or were forced to adapt to through the course of this. Elderly restricting their movements meant fewer falls with life-shortening injuries, the drop in traffic meant better air quality and fewer people getting stressed in traffic, more people getting out walking and exercising with all the benefits that brings...
> 
> It's often suggested the restrictions have had a significant affect on mental health, and it's difficult to measure the impact of that on peoples' lives but suicide was down 20% last year.  However the deferral of of non-critical care will have a quality of life impact on a lot of peoples lives that can't accurately be measured by death statistics.


I think the mental health issues will surface but again how do we correlate this with lockdown and restrictions will be interesting to see.

I have noticed too, just observational that people seem to be a little bit more polite and are willing to have a chat.

Of course my negative Nelly side says that we are going to see a lot of societal problems prop up, and we are entering our first winter vaccinated but how the cases, hospitalisation numbers look post Christmas will be an important indicator,  add in the other services that need to restart, it's going to be the cause of much debate.


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## Leo (30 Sep 2021)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> I think the mental health issues will surface but again how do we correlate this with lockdown and restrictions will be interesting to see.


True, and I think sometimes we tend to focus on the negative impacts of things like this where the impacts to mental health will not all be negative. Delayed treatment in non-critical healthcare might be a negative factor for years to come, but a lot of positives came as well. More people are exercising which we know improves wellbeing, some people now have a greater appreciation for the really important things in life, more remote work giving some a better work-life balance. etc.


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## odyssey06 (30 Sep 2021)

Leo said:


> True, and I think sometimes we tend to focus on the negative impacts of things like this where the impacts to mental health will not all be negative. Delayed treatment in non-critical healthcare might be a negative factor for years to come, but a lot of positives came as well. More people are exercising which we know improves wellbeing, some people now have a greater appreciation for the really important things in life, more remote work giving some a better work-life balance. etc.


And the mental health impacts on loved ones could have been devastating had the death toll been higher, and especially say in those 50+ with complicating conditions for whom ICU capacity was so important in pulling them through if they got severe covid.

Also, crimes against the person dropped dramatically, albeit offset by a small increase in domestic abuse cases.


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## Paul O Mahoney (30 Sep 2021)

Personally I think that we should really concentrate on the positives of all this and that might sound oxymoronic.

However I firmly believe that we learnt something out of this and it's now for the population to embrace it.

There's not one of who have some gripe about our governments,  but it should show all our political parties that the people will do their bit once they feel it's for the best for the people and policies are open and transparent.( not socialism btw)

We as a people should also take pride in our contribution to this and sometimes sacrifice is needed to do what's needed for the betterment of the whole of society and if the political parties don't listen we will let them know.

Of course any idealistic views will not be heard by MSM or politicians we have now reverted to sound bites , even today the vintners once again complaining that they have to pay for late licences for bars, where a pint goes up 50c every half hour,  if they don't want it don't do it.

And another thing that really gets me is the use of the pandemic to further any claim of not paying for something. We have an economy now like 2006 cant get a plumber, or any trade person to even quote you .

The choice is ours and we have enough to feed, house and take care of ones that really need it not the "pour" but the real poor.

PS another positive the civil war commemoration were also restricted,  I mean why commemorate something that has caused so much division in this little country of ours?


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