# dispute over house belonging to grandmother with dementia



## amq12 (25 Apr 2011)

Hello, this is my first post here  -- I hope this is the correct forum for it. I'll try to keep it to the point but if you need more details I'll supply as many as I can.

My grandparent, A, has been in a nursing home for four years now as they suffer from dementia. My parent initially agreed with the other three siblings that they would not have A made a ward of the court, but would manage A's finances jointly. 

Unfortunately one of them, my aunt, has A's ATM card and has been withdrawing money and depositing it in a post office savings accout which my parent has no access to. The other two siblings have no problem with my aunt doing this, but my parent is very unhappy and would like to see bank statements and the post office savings account on a regular basis, which my aunt is refusing.

My aunt is now having A's house renovated with a view to renting it out. My parent is against this, but my aunt has had the builders in already. Is having A made a ward of the court the only option my parent has if she wants to stop this and stop my aunt making further withdrawals from A's account?

TIA for any advice or opinions.


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## Billo (25 Apr 2011)

What do the other siblings think ?


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Apr 2011)

If the other two siblings agree that your Aunt is doing the right thing, it probably is the right thing. 

Why does your mother disagree? 

In many families, one daughter does all the work in minding the parent, and one or more of the others want to have a say in what happens but won't do much of the work. 

Brendan


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## Bronte (26 Apr 2011)

amq12 said:


> My aunt is now having A's house renovated with a view to renting it out. My parent is against this, but my aunt has had the builders in already.


 
Why is your parent against this?  Surely something needs to be done to the house.  Who is paying for the renovations?


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## truthseeker (26 Apr 2011)

Bronte said:


> Why is your parent against this? Surely something needs to be done to the house. Who is paying for the renovations?


 
Agree - presumably the point here is to get an income off the property - possibly to continue to pay for the nursing home (how is this currently being paid for?).

How does the Aunt have the ATM card in the first place - did A give it to them before the dementia set in?

If A has been in a nursing home for 4 years with dementia it would seem unlikely that they are going to come out again and need use of the house themselves.

What issues does you parent have with the house being renovated to produce an income? Does your parent think that the Aunt will pocket the income or something?


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## amq12 (26 Apr 2011)

Thanks for the responses. 

My parent actually does most of the visiting -- all of the caring is done by nursing home staff. The cost of the nursing home is not an issue, A is looked after well and there is no question of running out of money to provide for her care.

There are definitely a lot of pros and cons to renting the house out, which I don't particularly want to get into. 

Aunt has the ATM card because she took possession of all of A's things when A went into the nursing home. We all (children and grandchildren) knew the PIN because A often asked us to withdraw money. 

Aunt now refuses to give my parent information on either of the accounts (my parent wants to be able to see records, not actually access or manage the money).

The other siblings are uninvolved/not interested. 

I'm not really interested in whether or not what aunt is doing with the money and house is _right_, that's a bit difficult to figure at this stage because we don't really know what exactly she _is_ doing. I want to know what the legal situation is.

Maybe it's more useful if I ask a specific question: what would happen if I were to inform A's bank that she is no longer compos mentis? Would they be forced to freeze her account and investigate, would they be under no obligation to take any action at all, etc?

Oh and we don't know how the renovations are being paid for, as aunt  refuses to discuss this. We assume the money is coming out of the post  office savings account aunt created in her name (the money in this  account is, in turn, coming out of A's bank account).


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## Spear (27 Apr 2011)

ATM cards usually can only be used by the person to whom issued. Has your aunt been given authorization by the bank to use the card?


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## irishmoss (27 Apr 2011)

Your mother can go to the bank and explain that your grandmother has dementia and ask that your mother's name be added to the account. This is not a joint account but it allows your mother to access funds on your grandmothers behalf.

We have this set up with Permanent TSB

You will then be able to see the accounts and see what's happening.


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## amq12 (27 Apr 2011)

Thanks again for the responses, I will definitely pass that info on.

And no, the aunt does not have authorization to use the card. Several of us family members often withdrew money for A because she got flustered using the ATM and didn't want to go into the bank every time she needed money. Obviously we were only ever 'authorized' (verbally) to use it on a once-off basis to withdraw money for A as and when she needed it. She certainly never gave anyone carte blanche.


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## truthseeker (27 Apr 2011)

OP - when the Aunt who came into possession of the ATM card, she did so because she took possession of all A's things when A went into the nursing home - was this ever agreed, how did the Aunt come to be the one who took possession of all A's things? Was there any agreement at that time between any of the siblings that the Aunt would be allowed to use the ATM card?
Was the Aunt the one who cared more for A when she was at home?

How does anyone know that A did not actually give permission for the Aunt to use the ATM card at will?

Was the Aunt close to A when she still lived at home and is it possible that A gave her permission to the Aunt to handle her financial affairs?

Also - how do you know about the Aunt setting up a post office account in her name and transferring A's money into it by using an ATM card to do so - Im asking this because on the one hand you are saying the Aunt is refusing to give information/show statements, on the other hand this seems like quite a bit of detail to know about what the Aunt is doing.

Irishmoss suggested your parent go to the bank and ask to be put on the account so they can see what is happening - first of all - is that not really your parent doing what the Aunt is doing if no permission of the other siblings are asked (Ie - just taking over)? Also, could the Aunt have already done this and this is how she has access to the finances without question (i mean without question from the bank)?


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## Ann1 (27 Apr 2011)

irishmoss said:


> Your mother can go to the bank and explain that your grandmother has dementia and ask that your mother's name be added to the account. This is not a joint account but it allows your mother to access funds on your grandmothers behalf.
> 
> We have this set up with Permanent TSB
> 
> You will then be able to see the accounts and see what's happening.



Irismoss...I doubt if any bank will give a third party access to a clients account without the permission of the account holder. I take it you had permission from the account holder and that she/he gave signed permission to the bank to allow you have access her/his account.


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## irishmoss (27 Apr 2011)

Ann1 yes you are correct, sorry we did get a simple note signed by parent allowing a nominated person to access the account


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## Ann1 (27 Apr 2011)

irishmoss said:


> Ann1 yes you are correct, sorry we did get a simple note signed by parent allowing a nominated person to access the account



Yes I thought so.....unfortunately the OP's grandparent would not be in a position to give that permission now.


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## Ann1 (27 Apr 2011)

amq12.....Is there a possibility that your grandparent had a Power of Attorney drawn up in the early stages of her illness to facilitate her financial affairs being safeguarded in the event her condition deteriorated. She may have named your aunt in that Power of Attorney.


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## Threadser (27 Apr 2011)

If your grandmother's house is rented out then the income received must be declared as  additional income for her unless she has already signed over the house. This has implications for the type of support she is receiving for her nursing home care. If she is in receipt of subvention or support under the Fair Deal scheme then this could be reduced or stopped.


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## amq12 (28 Apr 2011)

Hi truthseeker, here the answers to your questions:

A was admitted to hospital after having a seizure. Everything she had on her at that point was handed over to the aunt. The aunt also had keys to A's house (all her children did and do), so she went in and took all of A's paperwork and valuables (for safekeeping). At the time this was fine by everyone as it was safer not to leave them in the then-unoccupied house, we all felt.

A couldn't agree to this as her mental condition deteriorated very quickly and quite dramatically once she was admitted to hospital. I had actually lived with her on and off in the year before this happened, and my parent and my aunt did about an equal share of the caring. I think aunt would agree that that's a fair description of it.
My mother offered to move into A's house with her and care for her there because A was so desperate to go home and not into a nursing home. She would have needed professional support though, which she couldn't afford and the others couldn't either. When A begged to at least be let home for Christmas my mother (against the other sibling's wishes but with the approval of doctors) brought her home. I think it would be fair to say my mother had as close and good a relationship with A as my aunt did, and that they both did the best they could for her, in their own ways.

The original agreement between all the siblings was that a small sum of money would be withdrawn from A's account and deposited in this post office savings account (which would have _two_ names on it) so it would be available for A's funeral when she passes. Aunt was very concerned that A's money would be unavailabe for some time after her death. I don't know if that would be the case? I suppose accounts are frozen until the will is read and in the meantime arrangements have to be made for the funeral anyway? I hadn't really thought that far ahead, but everyone agreed that this was a good idea.

My parent only found out how much money had been withdrawn when she was at A's house and found a bank statement. In the three months it had records for, several thousand euro had been withdrawn. When she asked aunt what this money had been spent on, aunt said it was all spent on A or put in the post office account. She refused to give any more details, and when my mother asked to see the post office book aunt became aggressive and ended the conversation.

On another occasion my mother found A's new ATM card at A's house (she stays at the house regularly, and this was okayed by all other siblings) and told my aunt she wanted to see the post office booklet before she would hand the new ATM card to my aunt. This was followed by a series of very aggressive phone calls and confrontations between my mother and my aunt and her daughter. Eventually, my mother was given two photocopied pages of the booklet. My aunt absolutely refused to let her see the whole thing. 

When my mother asked why there was so much money in the post office, and why nobody else's name could be put on the account, another confrontation -- but no answers -- followed.

We know that A never gave the aunt permission (or an EPA) because she herself often told us that she didn't trust this aunt. She asked us to 'keep an eye on her' and not let her 'get rid of me (A)' -- in the sense of putting her in a nursing home.  

As for the question of my mother taking over, that's certainly not what she wants to do, so going to the bank to be put on the account isn't really a great idea, you're right. She also _can't_ be put on the account as A can't really speak very well anymore, let alone write. 

What my mother wants is to make _joint_ decisions, and to be informed of any decisions my aunt makes (if they're not important enough to warrant debate or discussion). This was the original agreement, and she is simply refusing to stick to it. The other two siblings live abroad and in another city and just aren't that interested.

As for the last comment about rent being an additional income, that hadn't even occurred to me. I'm not sure if they will be declaring this income or not though ... The house was rented out before (similar but more complicated situation that ended disastrously) and the rent was paid in cash and went into the post office savings account.

Sorry for the longwinded response, but I wanted to answer everything. I hope that's clearer now.

This is really helping me see (or try to see!) things from a different perspective.


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## Bronte (29 Apr 2011)

What is done is done and cannot be undone. Your mother's initial inaction on the post office account not being made joint, and transparent to all has now resulted in this mess. It is understandable. If your post is a true reflection of what has happened than greed has undertaken your aunt. Not uncommon. Now what to do going forward. 

Personally I would notifiy the bank and have the card cancelled. Your aunt has no authority to withdraw money. Are we talking a lot of money, you mentioned thousands, but is this 5K or more serious amounts. Is there is a lot of money left in your grandmothers account. Your mother could actually use the new cards to figure out the balance if necessary. That's probably illegal but not uncommon either. 

The reason I ask this is to see if it's worthwhile to consult a solicitor. Cancelling the card immediately prevents the monies being disapated. But does your grandmother need financial help at this stage?

Also the house situation will have to be tackled. A decision needs to be made on what is to be done with it. Are you sure your aunt didn't intend to renovate the house with the monies she withdrew with the intention of keeping it sorted until your grandmothers death? A consultation to put this on a professional basis would be well advised and help to steer everybody on the right course of action. Don't forget even though it is your mother, your aunt might have a completely different point of view to your version. Your grandmother is to all intents and purposes now not interested nor it seems are two of her children. So does it matter?


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## truthseeker (29 Apr 2011)

Agree with Bronte - by the sounds of things there is a cause for concern.

Your mother should speak to a solicitor, I would also consider notifying the guards about theft of monies.

Your mother should certainly speak to the bank and explain the situation to them re the account being accessed with no authorisation.


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## csirl (29 Apr 2011)

Couple of questions - apologies if have been answered elsewhere:

1. Who's name is on the PO account? Is it A? Is it the aunt?

2. If it is A, is the aunt a signatory and how did she obtain this status?


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## Neg Covenant (29 Apr 2011)

My experience is that people get flustered and aggressive when they are up to no good and have been caught out.

Go to a solr a.s.a.p.

Probably need to give aunt short deadline to hand over all bank statements and to account for money.   Presumably some of it was spent on A.


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## amq12 (29 Apr 2011)

Yes, my mother has decided to take legal advice. She will be asking aunt not to take any further action whatsoever until she gets back to her after having spoken to a solicitor. I suppose the next step will be to go to the bank and ask them to freeze A's account until a third party can be entrusted with her financial affairs. 

I really appreciated all of the responses as they've made me try to see the other side. I can see how the aunt might feel that my mother is trying to do the same thing -- take control and make unilateral decisions.

We would like to do something that doesn't completely ruin the family and personal relationships involved, but a huge amount of damage has unfortunately already been done. We'll see what we can salvage. Thanks again for reading and for the feedback.


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