# Landlord claims that Tenant must pay Household Charge as its a lease condition?



## gerprem08 (22 Feb 2012)

Hi
My landlord is asking me to pay for a €100 "council tax".

I'm saying that this is the "household charge" & that this charge is his responsibility.

He is saying that in my lease agreement, there is a section stating that any future charges (water rates, levies, etc) are to be paid by me, the tenant.

Having had a look at the lease last night, there is a section saying just that, and that the charges can come from any "public authority".

Does this lease entitle him to ask me for the €100?

Thanks


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## Guns N Roses (22 Feb 2012)

I have never heard of a lease that has a section like this.

However you agreed to this by signing the lease.

I would tell your Landlord if he passes on the Household Charge that you will be leaving at the end of your lease period. 

Let him try to find another tenent in the current market!


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## elcato (22 Feb 2012)

Has he asked you to send the money to him directly or to pay it yourself ? He is ultimately responsible for this payment to revenue, not you.


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## Ann1 (22 Feb 2012)

The tenant cannot register to pay the household charge...it must be the owner of the property....


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## T McGibney (22 Feb 2012)

Guns N Roses said:


> I would tell your Landlord if he passes on the Household Charge that you will be leaving at the end of your lease period.



A dangerous course of action unless the tenant actually wants to leave.


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## Mavis (22 Feb 2012)

I have been down this road with different councils, i have properties let under the RAS scheme but an told that due to the household charge being a tax not a rate the clause in the agreement refered to by gerprem08 does not apply as water refuse etc are rates not taxes.


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## twofor1 (22 Feb 2012)

gerprem08 said:


> Does this lease entitle him to ask me for the €100?


 
Have a look at Thresholds response to the Household charge here;

http://www.threshold.ie/



> PRESS STATEMENT
> Thursday, 15th December 2011
> *Tenants Will Not be Liable for Household Charge – Threshold*
> – Housing charity outlines how landlords, rather than tenants, are liable for new charge –
> ...



and from citizens advice
Household Charge 



			
				citizensadvice said:
			
		

> *Who has to pay*
> 
> If you own a dwelling, you are liable for the Household Charge on it, subject to the waivers and exemptions listed below. If your house is rented out, you are liable for the charge – not your tenant. However, if it is let on a lease of more than 20 years, the person to whom it is leased is the owner for the purposes of the charge.
> If you have a second home or other property on which you have to pay the Non-Principal Private Residence (NPPR) charge, you will also have to pay the Household Charge on it.


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## Guns N Roses (22 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> A dangerous course of action unless the tenant actually wants to leave.


 
If I was the OP I would not let the Landlord bully me like this. There are plenty of good rental properties on the market. I would rather leave than put up with this.

Obviously the OP should not call the Landlord's bluff if they would rather stay. 

However if the tenent agrees to a rent increase to cover the Household Charge, what will happen when the Household Charge becomes a full blown Property Tax? 

It's likely that the Landlord will try to pass this on too!


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## T McGibney (22 Feb 2012)

Adhering to the explicit terms of a lease is hardly bullying!

Its utterly naive to expect in the long term that landlords will be shouldering the full property tax without passing this cost on to their tenants. 

Tenants pay council and property taxes as a matter of course in other jurisdictions.


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## gerprem08 (22 Feb 2012)

Thanks for the replies folks.


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## Guns N Roses (22 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Adhering to the explicit terms of a lease is hardly bullying!


 
Okay! Maybe bullying is a bit much. However it is obvious that the OP feels hard done by. And yes they have to adhere to the terms of the the lease that they signed. They are free however to walk away from this property at the end of the lease agreement to find another property with a lease that has more favourable terms. 



T McGibney said:


> Its utterly naive to expect in the long term that landlords will be shouldering the full property tax without passing this cost on to their tenants.


 
It's obvious that landlords will eventually increase their rents by stleath over a course of time to absorb the cost of the Household Charge. However blatantly passing it on in full is only going to antagonise tenents. 



T McGibney said:


> Tenants pay council and property taxes as a matter of course in other jurisdictions.


 
What goes on in other jurisdications is irrelevant in this country.


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## T McGibney (22 Feb 2012)

Glad we agree on most points so!


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## ajapale (22 Feb 2012)

Perhaps Landlords should consider passing on their income tax liability to tenants as well!

But seriously, I think Treshold's advice is worth considering.



			
				treshold said:
			
		

> “When the Department of the Environment introduced this charge in the  recent Budget, it stated very clearly that owners – not occupiers –  would be liable."
> 
> *Our advice to tenants is: under no circumstances should they pay either the new property charge or the NPPR.*
> 
> “If their refusal to pay leads to a dispute with their landlord, they  should refer the matter to the Private Residential Tenancies Board. And  Threshold is always here to help. If any tenants need advice or support  around this issue, they should contact us immediately.”


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## Spear (22 Feb 2012)

It would be interesting to check with a lawyer on whether the lease could be enforceable under Irish law given there was no explicit amount specified in the original lease.


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## Time (22 Feb 2012)

Just because there is a clause in a lease does not not make it legal.


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## jonocon (22 Feb 2012)

If you sign a lease you are agreeing to the terms of it surely?


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## pudds (22 Feb 2012)

jonocon said:


> If you sign a lease you are agreeing to the terms of it surely?




true but do the terms of a lease not have to be within the law of the land.


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## Time (22 Feb 2012)

Yes, they do. You cannot contract outside the law.


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## ajapale (22 Feb 2012)

for information from the ipoa website.



			
				ipoa said:
			
		

> *The following is an extract from a standard form Lease Agreement  *
> 
> The Tenant agrees with the Landlord as follows:-
> “To pay and discharge Rates  in respect of the Premises and to pay and discharge all applicable  charges in respect of any Services used or consumed on the Premises  without prejudice to the foregoing to pay and discharge charges for any  additional service whether specified in the definition of Services or  not which is or which may be rendered by a local authority in respect of  the premises and to indemnify the Landlord against any charges which  are or which may be payable by him in respect of the premises during the  period of the Lease.”


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## Time (22 Feb 2012)

Still may not be legal. Just because it is in every lease agreement don't make it a sure thing. It is open to challenge.


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## ajapale (22 Feb 2012)

Time said:


> Still may not be legal.


Agreed.
Will rural renters be liable for the septic tank charge or will the owner be liable?


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## twofor1 (22 Feb 2012)

It’s called a charge, then referred to as a tax, either way it is clearly stated it is payable by owners of residential property, and as such is not the tenant’s problem.

“The Household Charge 

The Household Charge is an annual charge introduced by the Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 which is payable by owners of residential property. It is a matter for owners of residential properties to register and pay the Household Charge on or after the 1st of January 2012.
The EU/IMF Programme of Financial Support for Ireland commits the Government to the introduction of a property tax for 2012. We are one of the last countries in Europe that does not fund local services through local property-based charges.”

https://www.householdcharge.ie/

I can see why a Landlord might expect his tenant to pay this charge.

Under Tenancy Obligations (Part 2) in A Quick Guide to the Residential Tenancy’s Act;

“Tenants must pay the rent and any specified charges.”

“These respective obligations must be adhered to whether or not there is a lease or written agreement - landlords and tenants cannot contract out of them. Additional obligations, however, can be included in a lease.”

http://public.prtb.ie/act.htm

If this charge is legally payable by the landlord, then my understanding is he cannot contract himself out of it.

I am a landlord and consider this my responsibility, not my tenants.

If I was a tenant I would follow Thresholds advice and not pay it.

These are just some thoughts for further debate.


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## T McGibney (23 Feb 2012)

Time said:


> You cannot contract outside the law.



So you're saying that it is actually illegal for a business to charge a customer for outlays incurred by them and legally payable by them to a third party? The household charge payable by a landlord is clearly a third-party outlay.


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## Time (23 Feb 2012)

Has the government said that tenants are liable?

The tax is on ownership. The owner pays. Passing on the charge is outside the law thus voiding the term.


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## T McGibney (23 Feb 2012)

Time said:


> Has the government said that tenants are liable?



What has that to do with anything? 

If I incur a cost in my business, I am clearly legally liable to pay it. If the cost relates to a client project, I am free to pass this cost on to my client, if my contract with the client provides for outlay charges. 

The same commercial principles apply to landlord/tenants contracts.

If the government want to go off and amend the legislation to make it illegal for landlords to charge tenants for the cost of the Household Charge, this will change the situation, but until and unless they do, the above position stands.


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## ajapale (23 Feb 2012)

Treshold: *Our advice to tenants is: under no circumstances should they pay either the new property charge or the NPPR.

*Citizens Advice:*Who has to pay*?
*If you own a dwelling, you are liable for the Household Charge on it,  subject to the waivers and exemptions listed below. If your house is  rented out, you are liable for the charge – not your tenant. However, if  it is let on a lease of more than 20 years, the person to whom it is  leased is the owner for the purposes of the charge.

*and on the other side of the argument:
IPOA:_*The following is an extract from a standard form Lease Agreement  *

The Tenant agrees with the Landlord as follows:- 
“To pay and discharge Rates  in respect of the Premises  and to pay and discharge all applicable  charges in respect of any  Services used or consumed on the Premises  without prejudice to the  foregoing to pay and discharge charges for any  additional service  whether specified in the definition of Services or  not which is or  which may be rendered by a local authority in respect of  the premises  and to indemnify the Landlord against any charges which  are or which  may be payable by him in respect of the premises during the  period of  the Lease.”_


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## T McGibney (23 Feb 2012)

There is no argument. Threshold are a tenants' lobby group. In common with trade unions and other private bodies, their statements and policy positions may be persuasive but have no legal standing. It is the applicable legislation, as implemented by the courts, that counts.


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## Time (23 Feb 2012)

IPOA are a landlords lobby group.  In common with trade unions and other private bodies, their statements and policy positions may be persuasive but have no legal standing. It is the applicable legislation, as implemented by the courts, that counts.


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## T McGibney (23 Feb 2012)

Time said:


> IPOA are a landlords lobby group.  In common with trade unions and other private bodies, their statements and policy positions may be persuasive but have no legal standing. It is the applicable legislation, as implemented by the courts, that counts.



This is silly. I never mentioned, or cited, the IPOA anywhere. My argument relates solely to the legality or otherwise of outlays chargeable under contract.


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## Time (23 Feb 2012)

It needs to be tested in court. Then we will have an answer.


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## T McGibney (23 Feb 2012)

The concept of outlay chargeable under contract is an integral part of every court case. The legality of such outlays is clearly not in doubt.


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## Time (23 Feb 2012)

Is it legal to pass on the household charge? That is for a court to decide.


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## ajapale (23 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> There is no argument.





T McGibney said:


> My argument relates solely to to....




The discussion started by the OP relates to his   Landlord's assertion that his Tenant must pay Household Charge as its a condition of the lease.

Points have been by both sides made supporting and contending the assertion.


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## T McGibney (23 Feb 2012)

Sorry, I don't see the point of your input here. Why are you so selectively quoting me? My argument is that chargeable outlays are a common feature of consumer and commercial contracts. They are clearly not illegal. There is no argument here. Some others are maintaining that chargeable outlay clauses are somehow illegal in the context of landlord/tenant contracts/leases. There may be an arguable case here but no evidence has been presented here to support that case.

You have quoted statements above from Threshold and Citizens Advice but neither address this issue.


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## ajapale (23 Feb 2012)

From Wicklow People:
*Landlords pull fast one with Household Charge*
*TENANTS ADVISED NOT TO PAY €100*

By MARY FOGARTY
          Wednesday January 18 2012

                TENANTS IN rental properties have been advised not to pay the €100 Household Charge to their landlords if asked to do so.

Other than where tenants are on a lease of more than 20 years, the charge is to be paid only by the owner of the house.

 'It has been brought to the attention of Bray Citizens Information  Centre that some landlords are attempting to pass on the new annual  Household Charge to their tenants,' said a representative of the  Quinsboro Road centre. _*' We have confirmed with the Revenue  Commissioners that it is the responsibility of the landlord to pay this  charge and it cannot be recouped from the tenant.'*_

They added that The Private Residential Tenancies Board guidelines  set out specific criteria for rent increases, which must be in line with  market values. _*Rents can only be increased in accordance with these  guidelines.*_

For more information contact Bray Citizen Information Centre on 0171 076 780 or go to www.citizensinformation.ie .

_*The charge will be replaced in the future by a valuation-based property tax.*_

The Household Charge Customer Service Centre can be contacted on 1890 357 357.

- MARY FOGARTY


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## T McGibney (23 Feb 2012)

ajapale said:


> _*' *We have confirmed with the Revenue  Commissioners that it is the responsibility of the landlord to pay this  charge and *it cannot be recouped from the tenant.'*_



I would love to see the Revenue statement confirming this.

The article is otherwise correct in that landlords cannot unilaterally jack up rents to cover their own cost increases. However if an existing lease includes provision for chargeable outlays, such outlays may be charged to the tenant.


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## facetious (23 Feb 2012)

It is the landlord's responsibility to pay the household charge. There is nothing in law to stop the landlord from recovering the cost of that charge from the tenant either directly or indirectly, especially if the lease contains such a clause.


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## roker (24 Feb 2012)

If you leave the property, the landlord will just deduct it from the deposit refund. The PTRB is not much use, we have just been through that course about deposits and it was 18 months before we got 25% of the deposit back, but that is another story.


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## csirl (1 Mar 2012)

Landlords are liable for paying the charge, save for those long term lease situations referred to by some posters. If the charge is not paid, the Landlord will suffer the penalties.

However, a landlord is fully entitled to include in the terms of the lease that the tenant will reimburse him/her for the costs. I would expect that a lot of landlords will include specific reference to this reimbursement in leases from this point forward. There are no legal obstacles to this - its a simple matter of contract law. In these circumstances, if the tenant does not pay, then they are in breach of the terms of their lease.

While the Landlord is legally liable for ensuring its paid, I think it is out of line for Threshold to publically say it is unfair for tenants to pay the charge. Remember that this is a local authority charge to pay for local services used by the tenant. As the Landlord does not get the benefit of these services, there is a very strong moral argument if favour of the tenant reimbursing.


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## jman0war (16 Mar 2012)

Just tell the Landlord that you'll reimburse him after he gives you a copy of the receipt that shows he actually paid it.

Odds are he hasn't.


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## Time (17 Mar 2012)

Agreed.


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## Ildánach (26 Mar 2012)

The charge is levied against the owner of the property, and only in certain circumstances.

It could arguably be viewed as oppressive or arbitrary to subject a tenant to a charge over which he has no control.  The very least that a landlord would have to do would be to set out in the lease that the property itself is subject to the household charge (rather than a vague catch-all term as given by way of example earlier in the thread), and then include a term that the tentant must indemnify against this specific charge.  

In the absence of such clarity, it is unlikely that courts would allow a landlord to enforce the term, or eject a tenant for non-compliance, as the tenant has not specifically agreed to it, and cannot be expected to agree to things outside of his control.


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## Bronte (27 Mar 2012)

In other jurisdictions property taxes are paid by the owners and landlords.  This is a tax on landlords.  In the future it may become something else such as a water bill, in that circumstance the tenant's would have to pay.  

In any case there is no need for landlords to do anything, next time they have a new tenant they add the NPPR, household charge etc into an increased rent (if they could get an increased rent, highly unlikely currently).  But any landlord right now saying a tenant has to pay is incorrect, the liability is the landlords as are the penalties.  

In this specific case the tenant apparently has a lease that specifically allows the landlord to bill him for the charge.  Until the legality of that is tested in court we cannot know whether that clause is valid.  No doubt at some stage it will come up with the PRTB which will mean further clarification.


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## muchmore (27 Mar 2012)

When the 100Euro charge goes up to, let's say 1000, in a few years- will we still be asked to pay this much larger amount too?

Aren't we thinking that it's a tax on property- to prevent other booms- so passing the charge onto the guy renting it misses the target- you want to target the property owner. Not the poor unfortunate renting it.


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## Boyd (27 Mar 2012)

muchmore said:


> Aren't we thinking that it's a tax on property- to prevent other booms- so passing the charge onto the guy renting it misses the target- you want to target the property owner. Not the poor unfortunate renting it.



Thanks for that, didnt realise I was a poor unfortunate


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