# Is there a future for Fianna Fail?



## horusd (18 Sep 2011)

A headline in today's _Sindo_ show FF at 10% and there were rumours of Eamon O'Cuiv starting a new party on the basis that FF are history. The quality of leadership under Martin seems dubious and he is tainted by past membership of historically probably the worst gov't ever. 

His talk of returning to core FF principles rings very hollow indeed as, apart from populism and winning elections, I don't know what he's talking about as core FF values. There are also no obvious leaders in waiting to take FF out of the mire and reinvent it. Yet against all this, the ability of the electorate to to forgive and forget is monumental. Can FF recover or is it time to say "Adios" and for a new centerist party to arise?


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## RMCF (18 Sep 2011)

Hopefully not.


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## tiger (18 Sep 2011)

Hard to see where they go from here, the presidential campaign has brought out alot of problems;
1) the brand is toxic, e.g. Sean Gallagher's attempts to distance himself in interviews.
2) there appears to be no leadership or discipline within the party.
3) talks of division I would guess are real, but would kill the party.  I can't see O'Cuiv leading a "comley maidens at the cross roads" (or what ever the core FF values are) party to becoming a national force.

No one has gone to jail for anything that lead to the current economic crisis, but if the PDs, FF & the greens are erased, it will be a lesson for future politicians.


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## micmclo (18 Sep 2011)

They had the most successful and widespread cumann system of any party.
Fair enough they were the largest party but FF were always at organizing these while others like Labour have little or no presence in many areas of Ireland.

Two years ago I'd have said maybe they'd recover and young people would move up and the current leadership would all go.
But it didn't realy happen at all and in the election they were not noted for putting forward more new candidates then any other party

They'll be back
And the next leader is someone few of us have even heard about yet

People will forget and even after the next budget people will start blasting the government.

_Jack Lynch removed local rates, Fine Gael introduce property tax. _There's a headline for a poster and press release right there to appeal to the masses



> (or what ever the core FF values are)



They have none, they sway like the grass in the wind.
Whatever is popular on the day they'll support


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## cork (18 Sep 2011)

Given the amount of flip flops that FG/Labour are doing FF will be back.

Most of the FG/Labour opposition to FF was opportunist.

Labours way or Franfurts Way?
Not a cent more to the banks?
No Water changes without metering?
Cutting TDs by 20?

The amount of broken promises by FG/Lab make it obvious FF will be back.


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## tiger (18 Sep 2011)

cork said:


> ...
> The amount of broken promises by FG/Lab make it obvious FF will be back.


What's obvious is that we're no longer in charge of our own affairs, the IMF & ECB hold the purse strings.


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## RMCF (18 Sep 2011)

cork said:


> Given the amount of flip flops that FG/Labour are doing FF will be back.
> 
> Most of the FG/Labour opposition to FF was opportunist.
> 
> ...



Can't keep the promises as FF messed up the country to such an extent!!!


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## Shawady (19 Sep 2011)

FF have made a mess of the presidential campaign. Martins' position has been seriously undermined.
I read one article yesterday where a FF TD reckons the party should back David Norris just to scupper Martin McGuiness chances.
Is this what it has come to for FF?


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## horusd (20 Sep 2011)

Watched Ursula Halligan's TV3 documentary last night. The level of anger in FF particularly against those that jumped ship with fat pensions , Dempsey, Ahern etc was striking.   As was the the self-serving tripe that came out of Bertie Ahern's "analysis".   And the similar tripe that came from O'Donoghue. who described himself as a "simple man" not an extravagant one. Is this simply dillusion or something worse like entitlement? It's hard to tell.  A combination of the likes of Ahern, Dempsey, O'Donoghue and Bertie, never mind Haughey were the undoing of FF in my view. 

I'm not a fan of FF, but there are and were some good people in the party. And maybe some very naive one's perhaps like Mary Hanafin, who I actually couldn't help feeling sorry for. Willie O'Dea also came across well. In fairness, he fought the fight and didn't hang up his boots, and you have to admire his bottle, even if that's all you can say for him.


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## micmclo (20 Sep 2011)

Surely there must be a few bright sparks in there somewhere

Who is the next Lemass?
I guess we'll find out in a few years now that a lot of the old guard have retired on their fat pensions


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## Complainer (20 Sep 2011)

They are in serious danger of going the way of the PDs. They've lost critical mass. They never had any ideology (except possibly on NI). The only thing they had to offer their supports was the benefits and trappings of power, with nice tax schemes etc. Now that they've lost power, they have nothing to offer, and their supporters are deserting them in droves.


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## Firefly (20 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> They are in serious danger of going the way of the PDs. They've lost critical mass. They never had any ideology (except possibly on NI). The only thing they had to offer their supports was the benefits and trappings of power, with nice tax schemes etc. Now that they've lost power, they have nothing to offer, and their supporters are deserting them in droves.



Not sure that they should be compared with the PDs. Afterall, wasn't it Bertie Ahern who declared himself 'one of the last socialists left in Irish politics'? Given the large increases in social welfare & old age pensions in the past decade coupled with the large expansion of public sector workers and rates of pay for same it's easy to see why he said this.


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## Sunny (20 Sep 2011)

They won't go the way of the PD's. They simply need to time to rebuild and rebrand. 10 years ago FG won 31 seats and had 22.5% of the vote. In 2011, despite everything that happened, FF won 20 seats and 17.5% of the vote. Big recovery job though!


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## StevieC (20 Sep 2011)

Fianna Fáil is a National Movement. Its aims are:-
(i) To secure in peace and agreement the unity of Ireland and its people.
(ii) To develop a distinctive national life in accordance with the diverse traditions and ideals of the Irish people as part of a broader European culture, and to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people.
(iii) To guarantee religious and civil liberty, and equal rights, equal treatment and equal opportunities for all the people of Ireland.
(iv) To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland, so as to provide the maximum sustainable employment, based on fostering a spirit of enterprise and self-reliance and on social partnership.
(v) To protect the natural environment and heritage of Ireland and to ensure a balance between town and country and between the regions, and to maintain as many families as practicable on the land.
(vi) To promote the family, and a wider sense of social responsibility, and to uphold the rule of law in the interest of the welfare and safety of the public.
(vii) To maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State, as a full member of the European Union and the United Nations, contributing to peace, disarmament and development on the basis of Ireland’s independent foreign policy tradition.
(viii) To reform the laws and institutions of State, to make them efficient, humane, caring and responsive to the needs of the citizen.


These are the ideals of Fianna Fáil. FF may not have lived up to these ideals in recent times but it doesnt make them any less relevant or worth striving for.

With all the media spin against FF, its easy to forget the following;

- Ireland has one of the best living standards in the world.
- Ireland until recently was praised as having one of the best educational standards in the world (compare university prices here to other countries and you will see that equality of opportunity is much higher here)
- Ireland is a relatively peaceful country, even more so since the good friday agreement (in which FF played an integral part).
- Ireland has one of the most generous social welfare systems in the world.

FF has helped shape this country into something we can be proud of even in our current difficulties.

Its all very well to knock FF for making mistakes but as a party they have done more for improve this country that any other party. No other party comes close to the impact that FF has had on our society and there were good reasons why the people of Ireland chose to re-elect FF so many times.

If FF can get back to its core ideals like Eamonn O'Cuiv states and clears out the carpetbaggers only in it for themselves, then FF could be a force for good in this country again.


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## Mpsox (20 Sep 2011)

I grew up in a FF household. We were small farmers and back then, FF were considered the party of the small farmer and the rural working man/family. FG were the party of "the big houses" or, as my father used to put it, the crowd who went hunting with horses, whereas the small farmer went hunting with just a dog. There was a strong nationalistic bent to the party, but then, the Civil War was still far more relevant in the 60s and 70s as people still recalled who was on what side and what happened in the locale. 

None of that applied to FF in the celtic tiger years, it's as if things got reversed and FF became the party of "the big men", the men with money, the chancers and charlatens. Problem the party now has is that it will become impossible for it to disasociate itself from that era for many a long day

Martin was wrong not to run a candidate. With 6 or 7 in the field, and the vote split, 15% of the vote could still have put them in with a shout. Now the remaining core FF voters are going to have to vote for someone else and that is not a good habit to get your core vote into.

Key thing for FF is the next council elections, they need a whole raft of new candidates out there, with no association with the old days. Problem they will have is getting them. FG/Lab will lose popularity with the next budget, no matter what spin they put on it. Danger for FF and for Labour is that desperate people will vote for SF on the basis they have nothing else to loose


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## Shawady (20 Sep 2011)

Mpsox said:


> Martin was wrong not to run a candidate. With 6 or 7 in the field, and the vote split, 15% of the vote could still have put them in with a shout. Now the remaining core FF voters are going to have to vote for someone else and that is not a good habit to get your core vote into.


 
I actually think Brian Crowley could have polled well.
Now they are giving SF a free run to have a pop at the Lab and FG candidates over the next 6 weeks in the run-up to the next budget.
Hard to see SF get the presidency but the campaign will certainly raise their profile as an opposition party.


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## Complainer (20 Sep 2011)

StevieC said:


> FNo other party comes close to the impact that FF has had on our society


While I disagree with just about everything else in your post, we can certainly agree on this point. No other party has sold out our sovreignty to international moneylenders. That's all down to FF. I'm sure my children will be very interested to know the history as they continue to pay off the FF debts.


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## Calico (20 Sep 2011)

Yes, but not as FF. They would have to call themselves something else. I have a few suggestions....


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## Firefly (20 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> While I disagree with just about everything else in your post, we can certainly agree on this point. No other party has sold out our sovreignty to international moneylenders. That's all down to FF. *I'm sure my children will be very interested to know the history as they continue to pay off the FF debts.*



Would that be for bailing out the banks (62.9BN according to http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=151115) or for the 18bn a year we are borrowing to balance the books? (I make it approx 54BN since Sept 2008)


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## StevieC (20 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> While I disagree with just about everything else in your post, we can certainly agree on this point. No other party has sold out our sovreignty to international moneylenders. That's all down to FF. I'm sure my children will be very interested to know the history as they continue to pay off the FF debts.


 
1) FF didnt bankrupt the country. The bankers did. FF made mistakes not having strong enough regulation but they didnt force the banks to go on a lending frenzy. They also didnt have control of all the county councils (FG did) that gave out planning permission wholesale for enough houses to meet demand for the next 50 years, or for planning for houses in Ballygobackwards that no one wanted to buy.

2) Its not all down to FF. Aside from the Bankers, the Central Bank/Financial Regulator fell asleep at the wheel. Mr Neary goes on Six One News saying we have the best capiltalised banks in Europe when obviously we didnt. 

3) Its not FF debts. Its the nations. The fact is the banks borrowed all this money and irresponsibly lent it to people who couldnt pay it back. The fact is that we borrow money every year to pay for our health/social welfare/education system. If we didnt agree to honour these debts then Europe wouldnt have lent us the money to keep the country's lights on. The choices were agree to IMF/ECB terms or immediately balance our budget by sacking 1/3 of our public service and letting our banks go bust impoverishing most of the country and I dont mean just the rich, I mean ordinary people too.

We would all love it if it was as simple to give a two fingered salute to Europe but the alternative was scarier if you look at the real consequences of that action.

Dont be fooled by the media, scratch the surface of our problems and you will see that while FF certainly made mistakes and were too long in government, they are not the sole cause of all our woes.


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## StevieC (20 Sep 2011)

+1 Firefly.


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## Complainer (20 Sep 2011)

StevieC said:


> 1) FF didnt bankrupt the country. The bankers did. FF made mistakes not having strong enough regulation but they didnt force the banks to go on a lending frenzy. They also didnt have control of all the county councils (FG did) that gave out planning permission wholesale for enough houses to meet demand for the next 50 years, or for planning for houses in Ballygobackwards that no one wanted to buy.



FF had DIRECT controls of the planning process via Dept Environment and  via the political appointees to An Bord Pleanala. Don't try to rewrite  history now.

FF bankrupted the country when they signed the unlimited bank guarantee on 28th September 2008. If they hadn't signed the guarantee, we wouldn't be in the hands of the international money lenders now.

That's their legacy.


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## Purple (20 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> FF bankrupted the country when they signed the unlimited bank guarantee on 28th September 2008. If they hadn't signed the guarantee, we wouldn't be in the hands of the international money lenders now.



eh, yes we would.
Why do you think they gave the guarantee in the first place?
I agree that it was a stupid socilaist thing to do but it was wasn't done in a vacuum.


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## Mpsox (21 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> FF had DIRECT controls of the planning process via Dept Environment and via the political appointees to An Bord Pleanala. Don't try to rewrite history now.
> 
> FF bankrupted the country when they signed the unlimited bank guarantee on 28th September 2008. If they hadn't signed the guarantee, we wouldn't be in the hands of the international money lenders now.
> 
> That's their legacy.


 
True, but would the IMF have come in to bail us out and who would be paying the public sector wage bill right now if they hadn't?


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## Complainer (21 Sep 2011)

Mpsox said:


> True, but would the IMF have come in to bail us out and who would be paying the public sector wage bill right now if they hadn't?


The bank guarantee pushed us over the edge into the abyss. There was certainly a major issue with cost of providing public services, and the dependance on property taxes to support this. This could have been addressed through normal borrowing over time. It was our exposure to the bank debt that pushed our bond yields to unsustainable levels.

Thanks Brian and Brian.


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## Sunny (21 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> The bank guarantee pushed us over the edge into the abyss. There was certainly a major issue with cost of providing public services, and the dependance on property taxes to support this. This could have been addressed through normal borrowing over time. It was our exposure to the bank debt that pushed our bond yields to unsustainable levels.
> 
> Thanks Brian and Brian.


 
Actually it wasn't. Bond yields didn't fall off the cliff until the middle of 2010 which was nearly two years after the Guarantee. The state of the public finances (huge deficit) and the general European debt crisis was the reason. The broad nature of the Bond Guarantee scheme was a mistake but nothing would have been different without it. No senior bondholder would have been allowed to lose money anyway. FG and Labour despite all their noise from the opposition benches are still unable to impose losses on Anglo and Nationwide bondholders never mind the main banks.

In the meantime, we would still have had a day to day deficit of approx €20 billion and to think that we would have been able to fund through normal borrowings in the current environment is wishful thinking. 

FF made a lot of mistakes but they go far beyond the bond guarantee scheme and there are plenty of other people around that can share in the blame. Whatever you might think about Brian Lenihan, there has been no change in Government Policy with regards to the budget. It's easy for them to say they don't have a choice because of the IMF/EU/ECB but they knew that when they were mouthing off from the opposition benches and promising the moon and the stars.


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## dereko1969 (21 Sep 2011)

Only got around to watching part 3 of the FF show on TV3 last night.

They really don't get it, do they? John O'Donoghue was victimhood personified, had done nothing wrong in his own eyes. Bertie felt that the Galway Tent hadn't affected how people thought of FF, because it had been cancelled and they still did badly in the General Election, that's the sophisticated level of thinking in our former Taoiseach!

The main thing for me was that none of them seemed to know what FF stood for, they were only now going to think about that. Why were they in a party that they didn't know what it stood for?


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## Sunny (21 Sep 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> Only got around to watching part 3 of the FF show on TV3 last night.
> 
> They really don't get it, do they? John O'Donoghue was victimhood personified, had done nothing wrong in his own eyes. Bertie felt that the Galway Tent hadn't affected how people thought of FF, because it had been cancelled and they still did badly in the General Election, that's the sophisticated level of thinking in our former Taoiseach!
> 
> The main thing for me was that none of them seemed to know what FF stood for, they were only now going to think about that. Why were they in a party that they didn't know what it stood for?


 
Think that pretty much sums them up. O'Donoghue should be held up as an example of someone that should never ever be elected.


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## micmclo (21 Sep 2011)

What's that famous saying, people get the politicans they deserve

You can say JOD shouldn't be elected but he was what the people wanted
And there are plenty who see their politican as the man/women they send "up to Dublin" to bring home the bacon
Martin Cullen was the "Minister for the South East". Incompetent at everything but he was the most senior politician for the area

Them fancy Dubs have their Luas, Dart, IFSC and government jobs, what can we get 

And JOD was better then most
Here is his website with his achievements
[broken link removed]

Doesn't list anything like I negoitated in Northern Ireland or I worked on legislation or represented Ireland at the UN.
Every achievement there is money and resources he pulled for his area

For example the first line under Health isn't about being a cabinet minister with some great achievment like insurance reform or money for research, no no no,


> More than €79 million has been provided in capital funding for school building and modernisation projects in Kerry since 2002.


It's what did Kerry get


This is what people wanted and this is what they got.
Tipp does the same with Lowry, Dublin had Tony Gregory who leveraged his vote to extract millions for his area. 

FF without power have little to offer, they'll be back but there is nothing outstanding or unique about them to attract people


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## Firefly (21 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> The bank guarantee pushed us over the edge into the abyss. T*here was certainly a major issue with cost of providing public services, and the dependance on property taxes to support this. This could have been addressed through normal borrowing over time.* It was our exposure to the bank debt that pushed our bond yields to unsustainable levels.
> 
> Thanks Brian and Brian.



Are you saying that we just keep borrowing 18-20bn a year indefinately? This IMO would be akin to the Ostrich burying its head in the sand..


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## Complainer (21 Sep 2011)

Firefly said:


> Are you saying that we just keep borrowing 18-20bn a year indefinately?


Where did I say anything remotely near that?


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## Firefly (21 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> Where did I say anything remotely near that?



Perhaps I have mis-unstood the piece I highlighted in bold, but to me it reads that ""There was certainly a major issue with cost of providing public services" (actually there IS as opposed to was).

"and the dependance on property taxes to support this." Agreed. Transactional property taxes should never have been used to fund annual payments

"This could have been addressed through normal borrowing over time". This is the main bit I am referring to. With the income from property taxes effectively gone you are suggesting that we borrow to meet our budget deficit - this has been between 18-20bn a year for the past 3 years with little sign of decreasing. So we just keep borrowing for this? If I have mis-understood then please clarify.


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## Complainer (21 Sep 2011)

Firefly said:


> "This could have been addressed through normal borrowing over time". This is the main bit I am referring to. With the income from property taxes effectively gone you are suggesting that we borrow to meet our budget deficit - this has been between 18-20bn a year for the past 3 years with little sign of decreasing. So we just keep borrowing for this? If I have mis-understood then please clarify.


Where you misunderstand is where you say 'keep borrowing'. I never said 'keep borrowing'. I said that we wouldn't be in the arms of the IMF if it wasn't for the banking debt. We would have been able to borrow through normal processes while we worked out how to address the gap between income and expenditure.


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## Purple (21 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> Where you misunderstand is where you say 'keep borrowing'. I never said 'keep borrowing'. I said that we wouldn't be in the arms of the IMF if it wasn't for the banking debt. We would have been able to borrow through normal processes while we worked out how to address the gap between income and expenditure.


 That's simply not true.


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## TarfHead (21 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> We would have been able to borrow through normal processes while we worked out how to address the gap between income and expenditure.


 
I doubt that the political will, to face up to the deficit, would have been forthcoming in the absence of the bailout.


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## Firefly (21 Sep 2011)

Complainer said:


> Where you misunderstand is where you say 'keep borrowing'. I never said 'keep borrowing'. I said that we wouldn't be in the arms of the IMF if it wasn't for the banking debt. We would have been able to borrow through normal processes while we worked out how to address the gap between income and expenditure.



The whole mess is interlinked. Without the building boom in the first place the public sector unions would not have demanded pay increases to keep their members pay inline with private sector workers (to be able to afford houses among other things which were rising in price - and you can't blame them). Likewise the resources would not have been there which allowed politicians hire so many additional staff in their departments or create so many quangos. 

The fact is that Fianna Fail were in charge for all of this period. Ultimately the financial regulator and the governor of the Central Bank reported to the Minister of Finance and he to Bertie. Bertie was ultimately in charge. However, we the people voted him in and we all benefited to some extent during the good times. It was a lot easier for Bertie to ignore any warnings he might have received...sure weren't we all doing well...did he really want to be the one who shouted stop and bring the whole thing down? All said and done, FF are the largest culprit IMO. Just because we voted  them in doesn't make us reponsible for all of their actions (a lot of  which are only coming out now anyway). They allowed this whole mess to  foster and brought in budget after budget to fuel the fire. 

Perhaps if the banks were regulated by a body *totally *independant of government influence they could restrict lending in the first place. This could be great in theory but on a small island I doubt if it would ever work as intended.

We are left with two large issues. The banking capitalisation and the budget deficit. The requirement for the former will at some stage level-off. The latter is being addressed at the moment by cutting services (garda stations and A&E untis closing) more than pay (even though pay has been cut somewhat), so we the public are the ones losing out. IMO, it is really only a matter of time before the IMF focus their energy on public sector numbers and pay...unless of course our economy improves.

So, in summary I think your point about the bank debt being resposible for our woes is only part of the story...we are borrowing as much to meet our budget deficit.


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## Leper (21 Sep 2011)

Getting back to the original question - Is there a future for Fianna Fáil?

I heard the Fianna Fáil people being interviewed on Morning Ireland as they were leaving the Think Tank in Tallaght. They came up with the same boring rubbish I would expect from a gaggle of nitwits at the same event. They are not learning and still talking down to us. The Fianna Fáil support hasn't bottomed out yet, they have still more distance to fall.


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## onq (21 Sep 2011)

horusd said:


> A headline in today's _Sindo_ show FF at 10% and there were rumours of Eamon O'Cuiv starting a new party on the basis that FF are history. The quality of leadership under Martin seems dubious and he is tainted by past membership of historically probably the worst gov't ever.
> 
> His talk of returning to core FF principles rings very hollow indeed as, apart from populism and winning elections, I don't know what he's talking about as core FF values. There are also no obvious leaders in waiting to take FF out of the mire and reinvent it. Yet against all this, the ability of the electorate to to forgive and forget is monumental. Can FF recover or is it time to say "Adios" and for a new centerist party to arise?




They say opposition parties don't win elections, Governments lose them.
Its hard to see the current FG-L government situation ending any time soon.

FG-L are bound to follow the path set for them by the last government and the IMF.
They have a built-in "get out of jail" card - if anything goes wrong their choices were very limited.

I think it will take an exceptional leader to reinvent Fianna Fáil, but the scapegoating of the most popular party for three terms is hard to credit.
Without doubt, they represented the worst of the Celtic Tiger - the ignorance and arrogance of those new come to money, vinegar aspiring to wine.

I think the current low poll result is partly a reaction to their behaviour towards the presidential election, and not allowing their members a free vote.
Mícheál Martin has shown himself to be dismissive of the wishes of his party and of certain back-benchers, which is not good sign in a leader of Fianna Fáil.

Bertie Ahern's recent comments about the Grass Roots seem to be a cynical attempt to further undermine a leader and a party for which he has no further use.
This kind of back-stabbing from a former leader of Fianna Fáil would be calculated to further alienate the same grass roots and prevent any rejuvenation under Martin.

Will Fianna Fáil renew itself? Not under Mícheál Martin, by the looks of things.
Will it ever recover? Not with a vain and embittered ex Taoiseach lurking in the wings, smarting from having missed his shot at The Park.
Remove these two impediments and install an energetic, visionary leader focused on the economy and the Party might have a fighting chance.

But does Sean Gallagher want the job? 


ONQ.


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## Purple (22 Sep 2011)

Good post ONQ, well said.


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## Shawady (22 Sep 2011)

I seriously doubt whether FF will get back up to it's 2007 level of support any time soon. Between now and the next election I wouldn't be surprised to see the formation of another party. The appetitie is there from the voters to try something new.
I also think the steady rise of SF will eat into a lot of the tradtional working class FF support, leaving the field very crowded.

FF could end up going into a FG led government in 5 or 10 years time.


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## censuspro (22 Sep 2011)

StevieC said:


> Fianna Fáil is a National Movement. Its aims are:-
> (i) To secure in peace and agreement the unity of Ireland and its people.
> (ii) To develop a distinctive national life in accordance with the diverse traditions and ideals of the Irish people as part of a broader European culture, and to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people.
> (iii) To guarantee religious and civil liberty, and equal rights, equal treatment and equal opportunities for all the people of Ireland.
> ...



They've been in govt for 50 out of the last 80 years!!! 

Not to mention.
1. Not achieving any of its founding objectives.
2. Not stopping the Property Bubble.
3. Not regulating the banks.
4. Not introducing land reform.
5. A long list of poor negotiations eg road overspends, benchmarking, Thornton Hall, Port Tunnel, P-Pars, e-voting etc.
6. Not introducing structural reform of the health and other public service or sheltered professions, when the funds were there.
8. Blowing the best chance this Nation has ever had of building a sustainable, modern and truly Republican state.


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## horusd (22 Sep 2011)

Another one of FF's most dangerous omissions was to fail to bring in anti-trafficking legislation. Women trafficked here for the purposes of sham marriages which aren't illegal are sometimes being raped or held captive. Asked about why they didn't Dara Colleary could only say he didn't know.

Most of these women are from poor and desperate Latvian backgrounds. The Latvians are furious with us, anf FF's omission has led us to being one of the criminal world's backdoors into Europe. So much for FF "values". What on earth can they be if they can't be bothered to care for very vulnerable women?


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## StevieC (22 Sep 2011)

censuspro said:


> They've been in govt for 50 out of the last 80 years!!!
> 
> Not to mention.
> 1. Not achieving any of its founding objectives.
> ...


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## Shawady (22 Sep 2011)

Stevie, I'm sure the other 2 big parties would share the objectives you mentoned in your post so I do not think that would make FF unique.
FF has traditonally had a lot of support in working class areas in Dublin and SF/Ind/Social party have stolen their thunder.


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## StevieC (22 Sep 2011)

Shawady said:


> Stevie, I'm sure the other 2 big parties would share the objectives you mentoned in your post so I do not think that would make FF unique.
> FF has traditonally had a lot of support in working class areas in Dublin and SF/Ind/Social party have stolen their thunder.


 
FF always traditionally looked after the working man and delievered locally in the community. When they moved away from that ethic and started Galway tents etc. they got out of touch with their own ordinary members and the members of the public that got them elected.

I was sickened by the comments made on the TV3 show by ex-FF TDs, I know it was edited to make FF look bad but there was no excuse for the arrogance shown in some instances. However I dont think this accurately reflects the FF party as a whole, there are many people in FF who work hard for their communities and believe in trying to make Ireland better as a country. Until FF however show real relevance to the people, then they wont get back in power. Its not good enough to just not be FG/Labour, people have to have a real belief that FF going forward will be different in order for them to be relevant. If they go back to their core ideals and produce policy/legislative bills reflecting these beliefs then I do think the public can forgive them. Perhaps I am being naive, but I genuinely think that the Irish people can get over the current hate for FF if FF show they have really changed.


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## dereko1969 (22 Sep 2011)

StevieC said:


> FF always traditionally looked after the working man and delievered locally in the community. When they moved away from that ethic and started Galway tents etc. they got out of touch with their own ordinary members and the members of the public that got them elected.
> 
> I was sickened by the comments made on the TV3 show by ex-FF TDs, I know it was edited to make FF look bad but there was no excuse for the arrogance shown in some instances. However I dont think this accurately reflects the FF party as a whole, there are many people in FF who work hard for their communities and believe in trying to make Ireland better as a country. Until FF however show real relevance to the people, then they wont get back in power. Its not good enough to just not be FG/Labour, people have to have a real belief that FF going forward will be different in order for them to be relevant. If they go back to their core ideals and produce policy/legislative bills reflecting these beliefs then I do think the public can forgive them. *Perhaps I am being naive, but I genuinely think that the Irish people can get over the current hate for FF if FF show they have really changed*.


 
Yes you are being naive.

They had the guts of 20 years growth to fund *all* their core beliefs and they didn't bother. 

There may be good people in FF but none of them stood up and shouted stop - they didn't shout stop to Haughey, they didn't shout stop to Ray Burke, they didn't shout stop to Liam Lawlor and they certainly didn't shout stop to Bertie Ahern, including the current leader who voted in Cabinet for all these decisions.


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## StevieC (22 Sep 2011)

dereko1969 said:


> Yes you are being naive.
> 
> They had the guts of 20 years growth to fund *all* their core beliefs and they didn't bother.
> 
> There may be good people in FF but none of them stood up and shouted stop - they didn't shout stop to Haughey, they didn't shout stop to Ray Burke, they didn't shout stop to Liam Lawlor and they certainly didn't shout stop to Bertie Ahern, including the current leader who voted in Cabinet for all these decisions.


 
In those 20 years, they increased social welfare, increased the old age pension, invested in new hospitals, tried to balance public pay with the private sector (admittedly this hasnt worked out well as now everyone is afraid to negatively benchmark), maintained free 3rd level education for equality of opportunity and at the same time tried to put some money away for a rainy day (Pensions Reserve Fund).

Seriously you cant say they didnt do good things over those 20 years. Most FF members didnt know what Lawlor and Burke were up to and heaves did take place against Haughey and Aherne when it came to light there may have been dodginess going on (forgive my use of word may here as we await still conclusions of Mahon Tribuneral).

They werent perfect but they didnt get re-elected 3 times in a row for no reason.


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## T McGibney (22 Sep 2011)

StevieC said:


> Most FF members didnt know what Lawlor and Burke were up to



This most certainly is not true. Lawlor had a very iffy reputation as far back as the 1980s. Similarly, there were serious question marks hanging over Burke in the 1980s arising from his alleged involvement in some 1970s North Dublin planning matters. 

At the time, these issues were common knowledge amongst FF followers at all levels. Anyone with a keen interest in politics would also have been aware of them.


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## Firefly (22 Sep 2011)

StevieC said:


> FF always traditionally looked after the working man and delievered locally in the community.



Whilst this worked well for FF in the past, I think we need a political system where the country comes first rather than parish pump politics.


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## censuspro (25 Sep 2011)

> Exactly my point. If FF is to be a political force in Ireland going forward it has to get back to its founding objectives. The party is too far removed from what it should be, a force for good which for many years they tried to be but in recent years they failed terribly at.
> 
> To simply blame FF for everything that is wrong in the country is being too simplistic though in my opinion. No countries government is perfect but political parties should try their best to get as much right as they can. The original objectives of FF are admirable, if they could get back to them then they would be a party worth getting back in government.


FF founding objectives have no relevance anymore! Is a United Ireland really of relevance to the majority of people these days? I was watching Vincent Browne during the last election, he read out a poll that showed Fianna Fail's support was derived mainly from people over the age of 65 and that only 8% of people under the age of 30 said they would vote FF in the next election.


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## Delboy (25 Sep 2011)

StevieC said:


> In those 20 years, they increased social welfare, increased the old age pension, invested in new hospitals, tried to balance public pay with the private sector (admittedly this hasnt worked out well as now everyone is afraid to negatively benchmark), maintained free 3rd level education for equality of opportunity and at the same time tried to put some money away for a rainy day (Pensions Reserve Fund).



they did all this on the back of increasing transactional taxes, a terrible mistake and they surely knew they could'nt last forever. But they stuck their heads in the sand and now our grandchildren will end up paying for these mistakes.
They threw out even more 'gravy' in the lead up to each election, again without giving thought to long term planning/funding. I know all parties try to time budget cycles to be favourable before elections, but FF really let rip in the early-mid noughties


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## micmclo (26 Sep 2011)

Used to be the party of the small farmer and the working man

I think one of their greatest achievement was slum clearance and council housing, many of those houses are still around today and in better shape then the slapped up Celtic Tiger era buildings
The country didn't have a lot of money to spare but they went straight into this in the thirties so well done.
At the same time bankrupted many farmers and destroyed the cattle industry with the economic war

Even their leader Séan Lemass wasn't above appointing friends to State boards and getting protectionism and licenses for cronies and their businesses


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## Purple (26 Sep 2011)

micmclo said:


> Used to be the party of the small farmer and the working man
> 
> I think one of their greatest achievement was slum clearance and council housing, many of those houses are still around today and in better shape then the slapped up Celtic Tiger era buildings
> The country didn't have a lot of money to spare but they went straight into this in the thirties so well done.
> ...



I used to be very quick to criticise the land war. Then I read up on it.


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## The_Banker (26 Sep 2011)

Purple said:


> I used to be very quick to criticise the land war. Then I read up on it.


 

I remember our history teacher all those years ago summing up the Economic War for us in a little story.

A farmer was out moving cattle from one area to another when passing a church he asked a passer by if he would look after the cattle while he ran in and got confession.
The passer by replied, grand but please dont run off and leave them with me!


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## micmclo (26 Sep 2011)

I don't understand that story


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## T McGibney (26 Sep 2011)

micmclo said:


> I don't understand that story



In those days, livestock were a liability, not an asset.


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