# Gas heating not working downstairs



## Lane7 (18 Feb 2011)

We live in a semi-d with gas heating.  Upstairs the heating is very good but it is freezing downstairs.  The boiler is about 20 years old and is working fine apart from the noise it makes.  We have bled the rads but no change.  Should I get an engineer to look at the boiler or do I need a plumber for the radiators or can I do anything myself?


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## Trilogy 1982 (18 Feb 2011)

Get a plumber who is RGI registered. He can look at both.

However if your heating is working upstairs then the boiler is obviously pumping out hot water ok.

Sometimes sludge due to corrosion in the pipes/radiators can build up, blocking radiators. Your plumber will be able to check this. There are special desludging solutions available to flush out the pipes if this is the case.


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## DGOBS (18 Feb 2011)

Do you have thermostats upstairs and downstairs? if so a motorized valve may have failed

I would seriously think twice about power flushing a system of 20+ years


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## Shane007 (18 Feb 2011)

It sounds like a typical example of sludge in your system. Sludge will more so gather in downstairs rads than in upstairs ones. If you have bled all the radiators, feel the bottoms of the rads. If they are cold at the bottom and hot at the top, then you will need to powerflush. Sludge can also cause excessive boiler noise.

Good practice before powerflushing is to test the system for the level of sludge within the system. Ask the company who will be carrying out the works if they have a Central Heating Water Test Kit, such as from Fernox. This will be another good indication of whether a powerflush is required and the level of expertise of that company.

If you do carry out a powerflush, ensure that a good quality inhibitor, such as Fernox, is added to the system upon completion for further protection of the system.

*WARNING:* If you have gunbarrel (GB) pipework within your heating system, *DO NOT* powerflush with an agressive cleanser. It may be better to use a magnet unit, such as the new "MagnaCleanse RapidFlush Filter". This will not use cleansers, but circulate the debris into a magnet to remove. It also has a special drill operated Radiator Agitator to loosen sludge from rads. If you have just copper, then full powerflush.

I have copied and pasted some useful info from my website regarding powerflushing:

*PowerFlushing** is the process by which the **central heating system of a house is flushed clean of rust, sludge and any other debris that may have accumulated. *

*A high flow/low pressure pumping unit is attached to the heating system circulation pump and a series of strong cleansing chemicals are flushed through the entire system.*

Unfortunately PowerFlushing is quite an expensive process and you should only have one if you really need it. So how do you know when your heating system needs to be flushed? There are a few common signs that indicate PowerFlushing is needed and these include:

· Cold spots on the radiators or radiators that don't heat up at all
· Excessively discoloured water when you bleed the radiators
· Excessive noise from the boiler unit or the circulation pump
· Poor or non-existent hot water even when the system has been running for a while

These problems on their own may be able to be rectified without PowerFlushing, however, if you notice more than one sign then it is probably worth considering a PowerFlush.

*The Benefits of PowerFlushing*

The result of PowerFlushing is that the boiler and the rest of the central heating system become more efficient. This occurs because there is better circulation through the pipe work and the radiators and in turn the boiler doesn't have to work as hard to warm the house and water. Therefore the overall result is that you save money on your heating bills.

*The Cost of PowerFlushing*

As mentioned above PowerFlushing can be quite an expensive process. The price you pay will depend on a number of factors, such as the size of the heating system and the quantity of cleansing chemicals needed to flush the system clean. On average you will be looking to pay between €300 and €600 for a PowerFlushing and so you need to make sure your system will benefit from the process.

*Consequences of Not PowerFlushing*

If your heating system does need to be PowerFlushed and you decide not to do it then the problems will almost certainly get worse. The circulation through the pipes and the radiators will slow until very little hot water gets through. This means that the house won't heat up and the boiler will be working for no real reason. The result of this is that energy will be wasted and in the long run money will be wasted as well.

*Conclusion*

So is PowerFlushing worth it? The answer to this depends on how affected your heating system is. If the entire system is showing signs of bad circulation or you notice more than two of the signs mentioned above then a PowerFlush will probably be worth the money you pay. If, however, only a few radiators are suffering from cold spots then it will probably be much quicker and easier to take the radiators off the wall and flush them separately.


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## DGOBS (18 Feb 2011)

wow Shane, I am impressed, 3 shreddies today!!  +1 on all the above

Hvae you tried the new magnaclean 'flush' unit yet yourself, was a bit dubious about the
ability to remove the heavy stuff (especially in drop fed rads) as to me it's only ever gonna get the dissolved/suspended magnatite out, would love to hear some positive feed back about it (will make me decide to but yet another piece of 600/700 kit, she'll kill me!)


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## villa 1 (18 Feb 2011)

I have come across a couple of open vented systems that were so badly sludged up that the only option was for a complete new system of pipework and boiler. In some cases manual radiator flushing resulted in complete collapse of radiator panels. Very costly and disruptive for the customer.


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## Shane007 (19 Feb 2011)

Hi DGOBS,

Yes I have it. I also have the Fernox PowerFlusher. The Fernox one is by far the best but the Magna has its uses. I also use them together. It really speeds up the cleanse. The Magna uses the system circulating pump so you have to be careful where you connect in. Best place is between the last rad and the boiler return before the circulating pump. You also do not need to blank the F & E pipe nor the OSVP when used on its own. The Radiator Agitator is excellent.

Price wise, it is €400 + VAT but it comes with a MagnaClean unit to leave in a system worth €120. I done a deal with one of the lads in Chadwicks, he bought the chemicals, gave me the €120 and I cleansed his system for free, so it only cost me €280 + VAT plus a bit of labour, but it was worth using his system as the guinea pig! He got a better deal, but I'm a nice guy, really.....

Fernox do a brilliant Powerflush course in UK for £50.

For information, it is a requirement/recommendation of oil boiler manufacturers to powerflush every system when installing a new oil boiler. 
If there is a warranty issue and it is found to be caused due to sludge, then you guessed it, no warranty. I am also a Service Engineer for Grant and this is becoming more of an issue.


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## DGOBS (19 Feb 2011)

I some work for Grant myself too, you must know Mr Sculley so....

Yeah, have a flusher too, the magnaclean would certainly be great inline with it, see alot of the higher quality flushers are not including heating element for a hot flush to reduce flushing time even further.


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## Shane007 (19 Feb 2011)

Yes, indeed, Keith Sculley. Top bloke. Pity there are not more warranty calls. Nearly all calls are from ill-fitting. 

Re: Powerflush, boiler should be run during the flush to heat system whilst flushing. This would be a given and very normal practice. Just don't allow too high temperatures in open vented systems as F & E is blanked.

BTW, heading upto to Belfast on 9th - 10th March for OFTEC 102. Will let you know how I get on with it.


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## DGOBS (20 Feb 2011)

Yeah I know, but then alot of flushing where I am is due to scale so the heatexchanger sometimes would not allow the boiler to be left running (I mean really hard water, like you wouldn't believe!) 

The Gerry and Ricky I said hi! (assuming its in CCTS)

RE Grant warranties, just shows a good quality appliance, bring back the reillo pump issue eh!! lots of warranties then!!


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## Shane007 (20 Feb 2011)

DGOBS said:


> Yeah I know, but then alot of flushing where I am is due to scale so the heatexchanger sometimes would not allow the boiler to be left running (I mean really hard water, like you wouldn't believe!)


 
I presume your are talking about gas boilers here or oil combi-boilers. If so, could you not remove the exchanger and cleanse separately and/or put in a second temporary one for the flush.



DGOBS said:


> The Gerry and Ricky I said hi! (assuming its in CCTS)


 
Yes, it's with CCTS. Will do.



DGOBS said:


> RE Grant warranties, just shows a good quality appliance, bring back the reillo pump issue eh!! lots of warranties then!!


 
I must have a word with Riello!


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## DGOBS (20 Feb 2011)

Yes, was referring to gas boilers, most low water content heatexchangers don't successfully flush, could put in a temporary one for the flush, but wouldn't put in 
the new one until flush was complete.


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## Shane007 (20 Feb 2011)

DGOBS said:


> The Gerry and Ricky I said hi! (assuming its in CCTS)


 
Will they know you by DGOBS?


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## DGOBS (20 Feb 2011)

haha, not at all, will pm u


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## joeythelips (21 Feb 2011)

Coming in late on this. For my money its the boiler pump. Sludge would not effect all the rads at once...

However an rgii plumber will advise.

ps i cannot post the link until i have made 15 posts.....


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## Shane007 (21 Feb 2011)

Lane7 said:


> We live in a semi-d with gas heating. Upstairs the heating is very good but it is freezing downstairs. The boiler is about 20 years old and is working fine apart from the noise it makes. We have bled the rads but no change. Should I get an engineer to look at the boiler or do I need a plumber for the radiators or can I do anything myself?


 
Hi Joeythelips,

If you read the OP, upstairs heating is no problem. If it was a faulty circulating pump, upstairs rads would not heat sufficiently, even on gravity (The boiler would also be stating out as the heat will not be pumped away from the boiler quick enough). 

The other alarm bell, is the boiler noise. This is a typical symptom of sludge circulating through the boiler. 

Sludge will also moreso gather in the downstairs circuit, rather than the upstairs circuit and sludge can block all rads, some rads, few rads at the same time depending on how much sludge is within the sytem.

The above along with the system age will more like have the cause of the issue being sludge.


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## joeythelips (21 Feb 2011)

Not true... First sympton of rads heating upstairs and not down is a faulty pump.... But i am sure in time a plumber will confirm


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## Lane7 (21 Feb 2011)

Thanks to everybody for your replies.  I'm off so to find a RGI plumber - will post on the tradesmen forum for recommendations.

DGOBS - no, there is no seperate thermostat upstairs


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## DGOBS (21 Feb 2011)

Then as suggested by Shane, it's a circulation issue as sludge or scale, pump failure is always a possibility but you would normally see
some hi-limit tripping at the boiler too with it.

Sorry Shane and myself got a bit engrossed in our own world in this thread for a while....


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