# I feel like no-one can help me... PIPs not interested, MABS were useless. HELP!



## BrokeGuy (5 Aug 2015)

Hi all,,


First of all I must mention that I have posted a few times so forgive me for repeating myself. Circumstances have changed with my wife getting a job in civil service on a full-time basis and while that is good news it costs us money for the first few years because of additional childcare. However, because of other costs dropping off it nets out the same.


At the moment I have contacted two PIPs on my case, some 1 year ago when I was advised I didn’t have sufficient means to make an offer to the creditors under a PIA and that bankruptcy would mean the loss of the home as I didn’t have a concrete agreement with the lender long-term. I contacted PIPs again this month and the same advice was given which more or less says to pay the mortgage as much as we can and see what happens with the other debt. These financial struggles started in 2009 when my wife lost her job so we are at this 6 years. I am tolerant enough because I am a big boy but there seems to be no end to this at all.


Both of us will be working in the civil service in a financial position so bankruptcy could be a problem and we really don’t want to lose the home especially given that I think the mortgage can be maintained long-term (it is a tracker and my gross wages will increase almost 100% over the next 7 years and so too will my wife and at the same time our childcare costs will half).


*Income position*


I spoke to BDO and they agree that my ‘standard or acceptable’ living expenses are €3,300 per month.


Our salaries are €3,640 per month and child benefit is €405.


I am 37, my wife is 38 and we have three children under 10.


Based on these numbers we can pay €742 towards our home loan which is exactly what we are doing. The problem with any PIA is that they do not count child benefit as income so in their numbers we have only €337 towards our home loan which is unsustainable and isn’t enough also to enter a PIA and offer something for the creditors.


Therefore it seems that  we have enough money to pay our home mortgage (currently) but not enough to go into a PIA and sort out the residual debt etc. It seems like a bizarre set of circumstances.


*Debt position*


Home, value €175k, debt €275k (Joint mortgage, a tracker originally with BOS, now with Lone-Star with Start managing it). We pay reduced payments of €700 per month which is marginally chipping away at the capital. We have no arrears and I have personally written to Start seeking a partial write-off, partial split mortgage with the balance going on capital and interest payments. They rejected that and asked for us to maintain the €700 per month reduced payments.


Rental 1, value €120k, debt €195k (Wife mortgage, a tracker with AIB). We are paying nothing towards this and have partially agreed to voluntary sale on the basis that we pay €130 per month for 6 years against the residual debt subject to a certain price being met. AIB have been a dream to deal with and while it is rented we are not paying anything and merely using the rent to cover other costs for the moment (the income is not included in the above given it is only temporary). We are hoping to have a few grand together to pay to AIB on closure and then work on the reducing the €130 per month agreement down to take effect of the lump sum.


Rental 2, value €50k, debt €145k (My mortgage, two trackers with BOS). This place has been vacant for 8 months or so and the debt is high as it includes an equity release of €30k or so. It is a 3 bed apartment and I have made a proposal to BOS to sell it and pay €50 per month off the arrears for 6 years. They are having none of that and have written to me asking would I agree to a voluntary sale on the terms that if I pay them €25,000 they will put the balance aside and I can pay same down over the years. I have 1 month to get back to them on this but it doesn’t seem like a deal as such so it is likely I wont sign and they will appoint a receiver.


Rental 3, value €20k, debt €0 (This was purchased from the equity release mentioned above and is a place in Bulgaria). I actually have this up for sale for €26k but no takers because of the high management fees (apparently). Plan is for me to sell this and use the funds to cut a deal with BOS on the residual debt referred to above but it could be a long time before anything moves.


Other than the tale of woe above I owe €7,700 with AIB credit card and my wife owes €11,000 with them also. Mine went to Intrum Justitia who have been a nightmare to deal with and despite so many emails and letters they act like I haven’t co-operated at all and are extremely ignorant on the phone. I have asked Mabs to contact them and said I can no longer deal with them because of their manner and threatening a compliant to the Ombudsman over this. I can see why people really get depressed having to deal with the likes of them – it is actually very poor.  The wife’s debt is still with AIB and she is sending a statement of means today to them.


*Ambition*


I just want rid of the properties, other than the home, and move on. I have been dealing with debt issues since 2008 when my wife lost her job and it grates on you. Our income now is 50% of what it was then but we have two more children so do the maths! The debt on the home at €275k is high but given my salary scale and the fact that childcare costs will only drop I think it is sustainable and I want to keep the home… it is a mugs game losing it and then being maybe not being able to apply for a mortgage until I am 45 when that house is probably going to be worth €210k and the tracker rate will be gone.


At present Mabs have done very little, BDO have said they can’t help and Cambridge McDuffy didn’t respond to my last emails to them (we have originally spoke about 18 months ago when they then also said they couldn’t help). I am thinking of meeting Phoenix Solutions in Portlaoise soon but forgive me for losing the appetite to do so here given that someone can only have so much motivation to deal with the aforementioned etc.


I should say we don’t have access to any money, no rich parents etc.




*L*


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## elcato (5 Aug 2015)

So to summarise

Rental 1 and 3 are not a problem as such.
Rental 2 cannot be rented out ?
As regards the CC and the personal loan with AIB why not write to them stating you have not got the money right now but would be willing to make payments as soon as you can. They will get a court order and you will be summonsed. Simply turn up and explain your situation with the judge and all will be sorted. Worst case scenario they will get a judgement on your home which on the sale of it they will have to get paid. Seeing as you are probebly not selling soon then this should not be a problem either. The debt collectors may sound threatening but that is all it is, just threats. So don't worry about any letters and always, always deal with them in writing only. If they appear at your door or ring you don't engage.


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## BrokeGuy (5 Aug 2015)

Hi, thanks for the response.

I have done that with the CC and they are not really listening... they literally don't get it. Hopefully the correspondence from Mabs will ensure they get the point.

You mention judgements but can they appoint someone to take my assets, like my car for example (2002 focus so not worth anything but you get the point)


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## elcato (5 Aug 2015)

BrokeGuy said:


> You mention judgements but can they appoint someone to take my assets, like my car for example (2002 focus so not worth anything but you get the point)


Only if you don't turm up in court and they go through a long winded process. It won't come anywhere near that. As I said, they will state that in a (threatening) letter at some point and you need to ignore it. Just make sure you appear in court and bring all correspondance with you to show the judge you tried to reason up to now.


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## epicaricacy (5 Aug 2015)

Hi Brokeguy

I think your PIP's advice is sound - keep paying whatever you're paying on your PPR and see what happens. You're not in a position to seek a formal solution to your financial distress at this juncture (besides bankruptcy - which you have stated is not an option).

The reality is that you don't have the funds for a PIA. It's not going to make a difference which insolvency company or organisation you choose, the answer from your creditors will be the same. Expecting BOS to accept 50 euros per month (3600 in total) as part of a 6 year PIA - on a likely shortfall of 100K on the BTL, when both you and your wife are in public sector employment is wishful thinking.

Friends of ours are currently dealing with Grant Thornton - via the IMHO - and they were told that EBS would only accept a lump sum PIA that made financial sense to them - namely 25K lump sum on a shortfall of 120K. Our friends are fortunate in that a family friend is paying the lump sum on their behalf in full and final settlement. 50 per month wouldn't make sense from a financial perspective for BOS on the BTL shortfall.

I - having gone through bankruptcy myself - understand your desire for closure via a formal solution. However, the reality of your financial circumstances and the figures you're suggesting mean that a PIA will never be accepted by your creditors.


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## BrokeGuy (5 Aug 2015)

Thanks for this.

Would it make sense then to just plough ahead with the home loan and then in a few years look for a PIA when there is some surplus available to deal with same? Surplus being the amount free to us after  we pay full capital and interest on the home? (that has to be paid because if it is put off any longer we wont be able to afford it given it will be squeezed into a shorted period of time).


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## epicaricacy (5 Aug 2015)

My own instinct would be to continue paying whatever you're paying for as long as Start allow it - just in case you require the protection of - or are forced into - bankruptcy in the future. As soon as their tune changes, you can up your repayments. IMO there's little point in unnecessarily paying full whack for something (in substantial neg. equity) you may end up losing - especially if you're going to feel the pinch throughout.

I believe you're correct re. playing the long game. One caveat to playing the long game involves potential inheritances.


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## Bronte (6 Aug 2015)

It is indeed wearing having to deal with this all the time but it does seem you are getting there.  Firstly both you and your wife work and it's civil service jobs.  Not only that you've three lovely children.  And your salary is going to increase.

*Credit card debt*

For the CC debt I would just not pay them anything and let them go to court, it's a complete waste of time for them, but if they waste money on it let them off.  As another poster said you just show up, explain the situation to the judge and I'd be amazed if he orders them to get anything.  You're on the 'minimum' level as per the insolvency service.  And no they are not going to get your old car as you need that for work and it's not worth anything.  They do not go to houses to take another other than Picasso's.  Your TV is just junk to them and a hassle to take or sell.

I presume you have cut the cards up !

*Your home*

This seems sorted, you are in an arrangment, can afford it, are paying some capital, and later you will be able to get back on track when your salary rises.

I would not pay any extra on your home until all the other debt is sorted, JUST in case things don't work out.

*Bulgaria.*

Why not reduce to 20K to get rid of it.  Why i s it priced at 26K if it's worth 20K.

*Rental 1 - AIB*

Well done on the deal with AIB, you do not state if their minimum price is possible ?  They will let you out of this and you've to pay for 6 years, presumably you can afford the 130 Euro?  How long is it for sale and have you had many offers?

Have you got the AIB offer in writing?

I'm amazed AIB don't want the rent, looks like they just want you off their books asap.

*Rental 2 - BofS*

This is the one that is the real problem, as they won't let you sell without you paying 25K, which you do not have.  I suggest you continue your negotiations, and tell them you're putting it on the market.   (are they pulling out of Ireland, I think they ran into big problems and were way overexposed.  Get an offer for it and put it to them.

Looks like their bottom line is 50%.  50 + 25 = 75. Debt 145K.

Why is this not rented?

*Costs*

Be very careful that whatever you sell, that you are able to use some of the sale proceeds to pay the auctioneer and solicitor.  Good news is that generally the deposit is paid to auctioneer and he takes his fee from that so bank cannot get it back !

Otherwise you might need a reserve fund.  Use the rental income to build one.

*Phoenix.*

I have no proof but on my reading of these down the last couple of years I'd avoid clutching at straws.  If I'm wrong another poster can clarify.

You hired a PIP a professional and that is who you should rely on.

*Mental health*

I've been following you down thru the years on here and I think I responded before.  There is no doubt about it but a lot of people have had an enormous amount of stress and strain due to the catestrophic nature of the downturn.  It is important that you recognise the toll it takes on you and your family.  But at the end of the day all that matters is you and your family and you do seem to be getting there.  It is important that you do fun things with them.  It doesn't have to cost a lot.  A day trip to the sea side, a walk in the countryside.  A short weekend break away with the family (I got a great deal in Ireland myself this month as hotels are dying for business).  Get you and yours away from things - out of the rent.  Best of luck brokeguy.


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## demoivre (6 Aug 2015)

epicaricacy said:


> However, the reality of your financial circumstances and the figures you're suggesting mean that a PIA will never be accepted by your creditors.



Isn't that precisely why the Personal Insolvency Amendment Bill 2014 was introduced, and passed by both houses of the Oireachtas only last month ?


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## epicaricacy (6 Aug 2015)

I'm not sure it was intended to force banks into 97 percent right offs of BTLs as would be the case here re. just one creditor (BOS)  -  especially when it appears that the same creditor is allowing the couple (both in Public Sectoral employment) to make interest only payments to remain in their PPR.  Of course, the PIP, MABS and I could be wide of the mark.


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## BrokeGuy (6 Aug 2015)

Hi there all....

To Epicaricacy above... yes we are in Public Sector jobs but I lost €23k per annum when I took it and it will take 10 years to get back to my wages before I left private sector so hardly a great catch for the banks.

I spoke to a PIP today, a reputable firm, and they were more creative than anyone I spoke to before. Look at least it gives me hope.

Bronte; thanks for your nice post and I do agree with your sentiments.


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## epicaricacy (6 Aug 2015)

Hi BrokeGuy

I wish you well in your endeavours - I'm well aware of the psycho-emotional distress that living on the bread line with creditors at the door can cause. My wife and I have lived (existed) through it and are just crawling out the other side where we're facing the absurdity of not being allowed open a bank account etc. in this regressive country.  

I was just pointing out the reality of your situation to demoivre and the way that creditors / courts look at PIA deals. I mentioned your public sectoral employment as I believe it will be a determining factor in how the banks will look at your case when deciding whether to accept a deal ( e.g. your offer of 50 euro per month on a shortfall of 100K) or not. I'm not some anti-public sector zealot. In fact, I worked in the public sector for 7 years myself. I'm also aware - from one of your earlier posts - that you consciously traded down financially from the private sector. 

Once again, good luck with your efforts in seeking a formal solution.


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## demoivre (7 Aug 2015)

epicaricacy said:


> I'm not sure it was intended to force banks into 97 percent right offs of BTLs as would be the case here re. just one creditor (BOS)  -  especially when it appears that the same creditor is allowing the couple (both in Public Sectoral employment) to make interest only payments to remain in their PPR.  Of course, the PIP, MABS and I could be wide of the mark.



 Unsecured debt write offs of up to 99% have occurred under PIAs according to the ISI stats. 



epicaricacy said:


> I was just pointing out the reality of your situation to demoivre and the way that creditors / courts look at PIA deals



Since the Personal Insolvency Amendment Bill 2014 was introduced in July how do you know how courts look at PIAs?


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## epicaricacy (7 Aug 2015)

Ok demoivre. 

It seems as if you're an expert in this field. It seems as if all anyone has to do is offer a miniscule sum and, as the bank veto has been eliminated - the debtor will walk free of his / her debts - whilst, holding onto to his / her home (even if it's the same creditor). Sounds great - if irrational - in theory. I wonder how it will work in pratice. I'm sure all will be revealed in the coming months.

I remember being advised about a similar perception re. the UK IVA by an Irish PIP in 2013. He was of the opinion that minor creditors - e.g. 2 credit card companies - could force an IVA on a larger creditor e.g. shortfall on a mortgage. When we went to the UK and spoke with the insolvency company that dealt with the courts on a daily basis - we were informed that this was highly unlikely to happen in practice.


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## Bronte (7 Aug 2015)

demoivre said:


> Unsecured debt write offs of up to 99% have occurred under PIAs according to the ISI stats.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the Personal Insolvency Amendment Bill 2014 was introduced in July how do you know how courts look at PIAs?


 
I've no idea how this will work, but if it's a solution for Brokeguy why didn't the PIP's he dealt with follow up on it.

Edit: he did mention yesterday he was talking to a new PIP.


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## ClubMan (9 Aug 2015)

Bronte said:


> *Phoenix.*
> 
> I have no proof but on my reading of these down the last couple of years I'd avoid clutching at straws.  If I'm wrong another poster can clarify.
> 
> You hired a PIP a professional and that is who you should rely on.


Just saw this now - for what it's worth...
I have met with Phoenix with/on behalf of a friend.
I found them very good, pragmatic and not promising anything that was not realistically achievable (e.g. no Freeman nonsense, conspiracy theories, unnecessary bank bashing or anything close to that).
However I agree with Bronte - you have engaged a professional PIP so should continue with them assuming they are doing their job properly.
Bear in mind that just because somebody doesn't tell you what might want to hear doesn't mean that they're not doing their job properly - in fact it might show that they ARE!


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## demoivre (10 Aug 2015)

epicaricacy said:


> Ok demoivre.
> 
> It seems as if you're an expert in this field. It seems as if all anyone has to do is offer a miniscule sum and, as the bank veto has been eliminated - the debtor will walk free of his / her debts - whilst, holding onto to his / her home (even if it's the same creditor). Sounds great - if irrational - in theory. I wonder how it will work in pratice. I'm sure all will be revealed in the coming months.



Rationality is a subjective view. The undeniable fact is that debt write downs of up to 99% have occurred in PIAs in the past, and that's before the removal of the banks veto under the personal insolvency amendment bill 2014.



epicaricacy said:


> I remember being advised about a similar perception re. the UK IVA by an Irish PIP in 2013. He was of the opinion that minor creditors - e.g. 2 credit card companies - could force an IVA on a larger creditor e.g. shortfall on a mortgage. When we went to the UK and spoke with the insolvency company that dealt with the courts on a daily basis - we were informed that this was highly unlikely to happen in practice.



In the UK is it not the creditors who decide whether an IVA goes through?


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## epicaricacy (10 Aug 2015)

demoivre said:


> Rationality is a subjective view. The undeniable fact is that debt write downs of up to 99% have occurred in PIAs in the past, and that's before the removal of the banks veto under the personal insolvency amendment bill 2014.
> 
> In the UK is it not the creditors who decide whether an IVA goes through?



Yes. It's the creditors - I meant to write 'creditors' as opposed to 'courts'.

99% write offs were obviously the exception rather than the rule - otherwise, the recent amendment wouldn't have been necessary.

Upon re-reading Brokeguy's initial post it would make sense for them to include AIB as a creditor in the PIA (shortfall + wife's CC debt) in addition to Intrum Justitia. In effect, they may be able to force Start / Lonestar's hand into accepting  whatever they can afford.


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