# Postgraduate for budding solicitor



## Oilean Beag (11 Jul 2006)

Are there any pracitioneers or other well informed people out there on AAM who could recommend a course of study for a recent law graduate, who has completed FE1 & Irish, has one year conveyancing, and currently working as paralegal with in house corporate counsel ? 

Basically seeking an apprenticeship, and thinking about further study anyway. There are diplomas on offer in UCD & Law Society or an LLM part time in Commercial Law in UCD. Any opinions on the usefulness or regard had for these ? Any other sugguestions ? 

PS Working fulltime in Dublin, so any possible options would need to be near by and later in the evening. 

Thanks


----------



## nelly (11 Jul 2006)

DCU Finance graduate dip would aid you in a career for one of the legal firm that deal with corp takeovers, mergers etc etc. Its not strictly legal but you would be more flexible and might learn from those you do the course with as I would have thought networking is important in the legal scene. just a thought


----------



## Oilean Beag (11 Jul 2006)

Thanks for your reply N. I guess I should have specified, but I did Business & Legal as my undergrad so got all your commercial angl es covered incl. finance.  I know what you mean though, diverse knowledge could give me an edge. 

Any more thoughts ?


----------



## nelly (11 Jul 2006)

there are environmental aspects to corp property purchases, prob not worth the effort though - and you might get labled a greenie...
I will keep thinkin !


----------



## Oilean Beag (11 Jul 2006)

There's nowt wrong with the green's ! I did environmental law in college with about 20 others! 

Ah, thanks. Its a tricky, I know. Was hoping some of the practising solicitors who visit this site might have some light to shed ?


----------



## Vanilla (11 Jul 2006)

I would think it would depend where you are looking for your apprenticeship. If its one of the big  to mid sized firms, post grad. may be valuable.If you were interested in a particular area of law- say criminal or very specialised such as patents, obviously you should look at any further training in that direction or even look for work experience in one of the specialised firms- un-paid if necessary. If its a small general practice firm, from my perspective, they won't really care about post graduate- only three things will matter- personality, experience and contacts. The first is probably pretty much formed at this stage! The second is a bit of a catch 22- you may have to take unpaid work to get some experience if you are having difficulty getting an apprenticeship. In relation to the third it helps if you are a member of local groups- whatever they be-  so that in time you will bring in work through your contacts.


----------



## Oilean Beag (11 Jul 2006)

thanks Vanilla. When people talk about having contacts I ( in my cynical, unconnected way ) assumed that it meant you getting in the door, not actually using them while you were there to bring in business ( which is fair to be honest).

Hmmm. What I really want  is a rounded apprenticeship,probably with a medium or large firm , European law being the area that interests me most. I have worked in a small firm for one year since finishing college so I got *really* hands on experience (conveyancing, probate, family)there. 

It hasn't gotten me anywhere yet so Ithought to complement I would look to academics. College grades decent.  Just looking to see where I can make the effort necessary to secure the apprenticeship that I want .


----------



## dats_right (12 Jul 2006)

wwwhttp://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/postgraduate/laws/index.shtml


----------



## Oilean Beag (24 Jul 2006)

Anyone any ideas about the *Attorney at Law  ( New York Bar)* programme offered by Friary Law through UCD ? Looks a bit costly, when you take into account flights & accomodation for exam in February. 

Aside fom the obvious benefits Stateside, is the addition to qualifications held in high regard in Ireland ? Looking at I suppose, medium to large firms.


----------



## miak (24 Jul 2006)

A friend of mine did that, she passed it first time but then found it very difficult to get work over there! She was only 22/3 at the time and had just finished her BCL. She was told that in order to really make use of it she would need to do a Masters in America! She is now back in Ireland studying for her FE1s, she is still planning on using the qualification at some point but I don't think it was as straightforward as she had presumed, so be careful!


----------



## Oilean Beag (24 Jul 2006)

Thanks Miak, I knew there had to be more to it than just the course etc, otherwise I would imagine more people would take it up.

Any other thoughts on  further training to get a good apprenticeship ?


----------



## mallow (24 Jul 2006)

Have a look at this site: rollonfriday.com, in the discussion forum people ask this question about New York Bar often.  It's mostly populated by English solicitors in big corporate firms.  Their general opinion seems to be it's not much help to them, so I'd imagine it's the same over here.  The AITI tax exams are something people in big firms seem to do, there would be a demand for solicitors who are also qualified tax advisors, but they're tough exams and you'd want to like tax...

European law in Ireland is mostly about competition law and regulatory stuff.  Competition work is connected to Mergers and Acquisitions which can be insanely long hours when there is a deal on.  The regulatory/compliance stuff could be pretty dry.  If you want to find out what it's like to work in, try finding someone doing it who'll give you a few minutes to talk to you about it.  

Only the bigger firms do European law and if you've applied to them and not gotten through, they would have your application on file and whether or not a subsequent application would succeed would depend I think on the reason they didn't give an interview etc in the first place and also what you did in the meantime.  If you're committed to getting into that area, try doing paralegal type work in Luxembourg or Brussels firms, although you might need French...

The Comm LLM in UCD is pretty popular, but whether or not it will get you into the big firms is debatable.  Do bear in mind that if you then want to get into a smaller/medium firm that doesn't do commercial work, they often have an attitude that they're wary of "academic" applicants as they're worried they aren't motivated to do the general practice job and/or could be know-it-alls.


----------



## Oilean Beag (16 Aug 2006)

Hey, 

Just a final thought on the masters question, Im nearing the final decision on whether to enroll on part time LLM in UCD, approx 4 hours a week, plus continuous assessment & exams, plus dissertation. 

If you were an employer seeking an apprentice, would you think that someone who has the commitment for part time study is a good person to hire or would you think 'Ah she will be looking for special treatment or flexibility to study'. 

Im going to start this year and hope to start apprenticeship when Im one year into the 2 year part time.


----------



## ramble (16 Aug 2006)

If I were taking on an apprentice someone with the AITI exams would streak ahead of other applicants, particularly if their results were impressive.  Being a solicitor is a pretty practical job, lots of problem solving.  Although an academic qualification shows a commitment to the law it's not really much use in practical terms.  I think part of the difficulty with apprentices is that you don't know how good they're going to be until you get them in the office, then if they're not up to much you have to keep them for the 2 years and they don't get paid peanuts like they used to.  I would say good work experience with good references are much more important than a post grad.  And please don't put on your cv that you worked at the lancome counter/in a clothes shop etc etc going back to every job since your junior cert, it's just not relevant and is an immediate turn off.

As to the special treatment because your studying, you will be asked about this at  an interview.  The biggest problem is getting the interview!


----------



## Oilean Beag (17 Aug 2006)

Ramble, 

Thanks for your input. I had considered the AITI aswell, as you said very practical & useful.

Getting the interview is in indeed the hard part. Would you interview someone who was really just in the middle of part time study, where they have similar experience , grades to another candidate ? Or would you look at the outside commitment as possibly getting in the way of them giving 100% to the job ? 

I guess I want to know not only will doing LLM bulk up my CV to get interviews , but also will it act as a hindrance on my CV turning employers off because I wouldn't be finished it yet ?


----------



## headwrecked (21 Aug 2006)

Has anyone heard anything about the Dip. in Arbitration and whether it is worth doing, its ran in UCD


----------



## Mininv (21 Aug 2006)

The New York Bar exam is a complete rip-off IMO. Sure its an extra qualification but its one you're never going to use, and it doesnt provide you with any extra skills or knowledge. You should spend the money on something more concrete.

The Arbitration qualification isnt a bad option in that it does actually qualify you to do something extra but it doesnt really provide any upskills.

To be honest, Masters courses are your best bet. Primarily determined by the areas of specialised practice you think you'd like to have. I know several people who got offers from big five firms after doing well in their LL.Ms who had been turned down on the basis of their undergraduate degrees alone.

Your primary options are probably UCD and Trinity. Bear in mind that Trinity has some very specialised courses which, if they coincide with areas of interest for you (telecommunications, insolvency, cross-border litigation, mergers etc) are excellent. As part of the LL.M, they also have an option in Corporate Governance which, as its in a growth area with a good lecturer, seems to be getting a good rep with the firms.


----------



## Oilean Beag (22 Aug 2006)

Miniv, 

Do you know were the people who had LLM qualification finished their studies when they secured their apprenticeship ? 

What I am concerned about is whether as part time student I would be putting them off hiring as I would have to continue studies while starting apprenticeship. 

Im afraid not an option to give up work and go back as a  full time student .


----------

