# Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Map?



## blobert (2 Jun 2009)

Hello Folks,

Not sure if this is the correct forum but I thought I'd try here.

There is an apartment complex and offices building opposite where I live. 

There is a very wide path in front of this development.

As far as I am aware the area in front of the complex is private property (it is tarmac covered), there are signs up to this effect while the path is grey stone and DCC owned.

Part of this (the space in front of the apartments) has spaces marked out and is patrolled by a private parking company. This would seem to confirm my belief.

The larger area, in front of the offices, is not marked, though it has signs up denoting private property.

I, along with many other residents of the street, have been parking in this area.

This morning DCC clamped all the cars. Now as far as I am aware DCC do not have jurisdiction to clamp cars parked on private land, only a privately appointed firm by the land owner could do so?

What I want to know is how I can prove the land is privately owned? Ideally I'd like to find a map of the street that shows the boundaries of the various properties. I believe the Land Registry service have a LandDirect.ie service which seems to probably be what I am looking for but it costs €125 to access and seems to be available to solicitors only.

Is there a way I can access such information for free, I'd imagine in pre-internet days there was probably an office one could go to to look at maps?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance


----------



## ontour (2 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

The owner of the area would have a site map.  They would probably have one easily available for their own requirements around health and safety, fire evacuation etc.  You could ask them for a copy and a letter stating that the land is private and that you have permission to park there.


----------



## Smashbox (2 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

Try the local libraries.


----------



## blobert (2 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

Thanks for the replies folks. Not sure who the land owner is, I know a speculator bought the offices and some of the apartments with the intention of building a new complex but that has been put on hold so the offices lie empty.

I don't think anybody has the land owners permission to be parked there, but as I believe it is private land I don't think DCC are allowed to clamp me on it. As is my knowledge of this, if it is private land the owner is allowed to employ a private clamping firm and put signs up to this effect. 

There are signs up saying "Private Property, No Parking" that look like they have been there for many years, but no mention of a private clamping firm in the part where everybody parks. I'd imagine whoever clamped all the vehicles just assumed that as they seem to be on the path it is legitimate for them (DCC) to do so.

Will try the libraries in the area, is there a central office that would have such maps?


----------



## Padraigb (2 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

I have this odd belief that bodies like DCC are basically honest (albeit with a few unreasonable people on their payroll). So why not ask them to account for the clampers' decision, and see if you can advance along that route?


----------



## csirl (2 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

DCC planning files, most of which are online, may show the site boundary.


----------



## blobert (2 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

Thanks a lot for that, I had a look here 

[broken link removed]

Hard to tell what the boundaries of the buildings are but it seems as though the areas marked as roads probably include the footpath.

There seems to be a strip of land in front of the buildings themselves that is included in the development so I'm guessing it is private property. Certainly the bit of path that is marked out by the private parking company and designated as private property seems to be classified the same as the area other people have been parking which is what I thought would be the case.

I wonder will a print out of this, coupled with some photos to illustrate it be enough to appeal the decision.

My concern is not as much with overturning this clamping incident but rather with preventing them from clamping myself and other residents of the street again in the immediate future.

Any further advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## ontour (2 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

It is worth using some photos and talking to the clampers to see why you were clamped.  The strip of land may have been part of the site but handed over to the council from the developer based on planning conditions, CPO or other agreements.  It could actually be the developer that rang the clampers reporting cars parked on the path outside his offices.

A conversation with the clampers should assist you in determining how much effort to expend in putting your case forward.

If the land was private, I think it is likely that any developer in this country is currently exhausting every possible revenue stream and clamping you themselves!!


----------



## blobert (3 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

Thanks for the replies guys. I emailed the land registry office there, will call in at lunch to view the maps if available.

Spoke to the clampers when they were unclamping me, they agreed it looked very much as though the place everyone was parked looked like private property, they said they had been told to start clamping on the street in question. They were not sure of the reason, thought that maybe someone on the street had complained about it. They suggested I appeal it.

Any further advice would be much appreciated. Thanks


----------



## blobert (3 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

DCC emailed me to say "We checked this area out and found that it was ceded to Dublin Corporation (as it was then) some time ago. "

I’m not entirely sure what they mean by this? Is it that the owner of the land gave them permission to patrol and clamp on it? 

I took a trip at lunch to the Land Registry Office, there are several stips of land adjacent to the path, owned by several different companies.

The property that I was parked on was bought in 2007, I think it unlikely that the new owner they give permission for them to patrol their property since then?

I've asked DCC to tell me which pieces of private property they believe they have the right to clamp people upon and which they don’t for they are all private property and thus, I would have thought, not under DCC Parking’s jurisdiction.

I'll let you know what they say. The people in the Land Registry office were very helpful incidentally. They printed me up a map for free (the official ones cost €25). It's hard to make out boundaries but I'm confident that the land I was parked on is private, I even know the name of the chap who owns it now


----------



## Sunny (3 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

If the area was ceded to Dublin Corporation, it means the land isn't private. Whoever owned it assigned it over to DCC. Has nothing to do with giving permission to clamp.


----------



## bond-007 (3 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

And DCC would have no control over private property. If order to clamp DCC would need to own the land.

DCC cannot act as a private parking company for the owner.


----------



## Padraigb (3 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

If it has been ceded to DCC, then they have the right to control its use. That includes its use for parking. Concomitant with that is the right to clamp vehicles parked there without authorisation.

I presume that parking on the land is not obstructive. It might be worth while trying to establish with DCC some deal to allow residents' parking there.


----------



## bond-007 (3 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

Ceded would mean they own it. They can't have it both ways. They either own it or they don't. The land registry will show who is telling the truth.


----------



## Padraigb (3 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*



bond-007 said:


> Ceded would mean they own it. They can't have it both ways. They either own it or they don't. The land registry will show who is telling the truth.



Ceded means that the original owners have granted to DCC rights that they once had. There are no two ways about that. DCC can act as the owners.

The site map of our site shows it as being ours out to the middle of the road. The bit where the road runs has long been ceded to the local authority. Herself and I have no right to dictate who might use the road, and who might not. If the local authority decide to restrict parking along the road, we have no say in the matter.


----------



## blobert (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

Hello again, so what your saying is that the owner could previously have ceded their rights for this strip of land to DCC so that DCC could do with it as they wish? Seems strange that someone would want to do that as opposed to keep it for themselves.

Once those rights are ceded does that mean DCC have them forever? What I'm getting at is that would the new owner of the land have to agree to this again or when one cedes the rights do they stay ceded forever?

The strip of land in question runs all the way along the street. According to my map from the Land Registry it is broken into 3 parts with 3 different owners. One part, outside an apartment block has parking spaces marked on it and is privately controled. DCC did not clamp anyone there. The second part is outside an actively used office. Cars have been parked there for the last few days and none have been clamped. The final (largest part is outside disused offices). This is the area that has been clamped on since a few days ago.

Am waiting for DCC to get back to me about what areas they think they can clamp and what they can't

Any further info/opinions would be much appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## blobert (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

I received another reply from DCC, they say:

"The area in question was taken in charge by Dublin Corporation by Managers Order dated 9th November 1995. Therefore we can enforce on the area in question."

They don't seem to like giving detailed replies.

Can anyone interpret this for me?


----------



## dereko1969 (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

if it has been taken in charge then it's theirs to manage, seems straightforward enough.

by the way why don't people park on their own land rather than across the street?


----------



## csirl (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*



> Once those rights are ceded does that mean DCC have them forever? What I'm getting at is that would the new owner of the land have to agree to this again or when one cedes the rights do they stay ceded forever?


 
Yes, DCC has them forever - it owns them. Usually done as part of the planning process - local authority gives planning permission for a development with the condition that certain public areas are finished by the developer and ownership of them transfered to the council. Standard stuff in most areas.


----------



## blobert (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

Thanks for the reply.

There are a few houses that look like they might have been built in 1995, so it could well be that the land outside them was ceded at this date.

But the unused office block where the majority of the cars are parked outside dates from the early 80's so it's unlikely that such an agreement would have come into place in 1995.

Perhaps they have rights to the land outside the houses, but have mistakenly thought this extends to the adjacent site?

I've written back to ask for clarification as to what areas exactly they believe they have rights to but the chap I've been exchanging emails with has not been too helpful thus far.

Thanks again.


----------



## mf1 (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

Growing up in Dublin city centre, I can very distinctly remember the way that parking became a huge issue if you lived on a main road and had no private parking facilities. 

From what OP  posted, I gather that people choose to park in an area that they know they don't own but which does not seem to have any parking  restrictions - yellow lines, pay and display parking areas. 

It may be that DCC have or have'nt the authority to clamp cars parked in land that they own and which is clearly  marked as private property but I suggest that perhaps at this stage the residents need to find somewhere else to park!

mf


----------



## blobert (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

I got a call from DCC and spoke to the person I had been emailing, he was very helpful. He's going to send my out a copy of the order from 1995, seemingly DCC have the rights to a stretch of 70 metres of the road.

Some residents (presumably the ones with private parking) had complained about the cars on the street, this was the only reason they looked into it, and then found the order.

The guy said the same situation occurred in a few other parts of the city also, he said I could certainly appeal my clamping.

So in theory there is still a patch of the street that is private property and can be parked on but I'd imagine competition would be fierce for the few spaces.

I'll let you know if the order from 1995 reveals anything, and thanks again for all your help with this.


----------



## Sunny (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*

Wow, I think Mf1 has given the best advice so far. Find somewhere else to park! Too complicated and messy for me.


----------



## rmelly (4 Jun 2009)

*Re: Clamped on Private Property by DCC Parking Services, How to Get Land Boundries Ma*



Sunny said:


> Wow, I think Mf1 has given the best advice so far. Find somewhere else to park! Too complicated and messy for me.


 
I think it's a crusade at this stage, I have a feeling the OP won't give up so easily. I admire that.


----------

