# NPPR disproportionate interest - paying principal only for now and taking a case?



## =MAT= (19 Aug 2014)

Hi there. Last month I found out about NPPR for first time. I'm looking at a 3,000 euro NPPR interest on 1,000 NPPR charges I owe on my small property in Dublin which I manage myself remotely. I live in Belfast but spend a lot of time abroad with work. I pay tax on the rare profit I make on this rental income (and LPT etc.) and am fully compliant till now. I never received any notification of any kind re: NPPR until yesterday as I was thinking of starting this thread. My letter said they found me through Revenue property records (only took them 5 years?).
 I wish they told me in 2009 so I could have paid the 200 euro per year from 2009 to 2013 and be done with it and saved the stress this thing is. 
  My current plan was to write a bank draft to NPPR for the principal owed (1,000) so that is with them by end August (deadline for the period of so-called 'grace’) with a letter of appeal to my local Co. Council and fight this extortionate interest, having paid the principal? But now I am seriously considering legal avenue at the same time as paying principal along with letter of appeal. 
Anyone want to join together to fight this? All advice welcome. _Please refrain from telling me I am an idiot. I feel it! _Thanks.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Aug 2014)

Folks

MAT has asked others who are interested to join him in taking a case. 

Please do not discuss anything else in this thread so that it remains focused. Other  good threads were ruined by off-topic discussions e.g.  

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=180288

MAT

You have three options 

1) Appeal on the basis of Hardship
2) Lobby politicians to change the law 
3) Challenge it legally on the grounds that it is extortionate. As I suggested in the other thread, you will need counsel's opinion. You might get a pro-bono SC's opinion on this from Ross Maguire of [broken link removed]


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## Branz (19 Aug 2014)

I don't think it correct to say 1000 plus 3000 in interest.

Section 7 of the legislation here: http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2011/a3611.pdf
sets out the math for the calculations of late payment fees and interest

For non payment of 200 in 2009 it became 260  (30% late payment fees) plus interest at 1% per month or c 12.68% per annum for 4 years becoming 1260.
So on for 2010 though 2013
The 1260 if not paid by end August 2014 has 120 added on and then multiplied by 1.5 to become 2,070

The rest can be seen under the FAQ's here https://www.nppr.ie/

If you are going to pick a fight the proper breakdown of the charges is important


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## dub_nerd (20 Aug 2014)

Is there not another case against the NPPR that it was never notified in person to those liable for it? Many people living abroad seem to have been caught out by it, and in fairness, how were they supposed to know? (No MAT, you're not an idiot). I know this has been mentioned before, but worth asking again.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Aug 2014)

dub_nerd said:


> Is there not another case against the NPPR that it was never notified in person to those liable for it? Many people living abroad seem to have been caught out by it, and in fairness, how were they supposed to know? (No MAT, you're not an idiot). I know this has been mentioned before, but worth asking again.



I will answer this to prevent the case going off topic.

As has been pointed out on the other thread, if you own a property, you should make yourself fully familiar with the tax regime and laws in that country. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. 

MAT - you could add this to your case, but it's unlikely to succeed.


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Aug 2014)

Hi Ircoha


> For non payment of 200 in 2009 it became 260  (30% late payment fees)  plus interest at 1% per month or c 12.68% per annum for 4 years becoming  1260.



€260 @ 12.68% for 4 years, would be €391.87.  The €200 fee not paid in 2009, has additional fees of €20 per month or €240 per year applied. That is well over 100% per year in the initial years. 

What happens if I don't pay?                   

They will increase further from 1 September 

Table of Charges and Late Payment Fee

The €1,260 due now, rises to €2,070 from 1 September. In other words, after the fine of €60, interest is added at 50% compound each year.


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## =MAT= (20 Aug 2014)

So folks -  when I said 1,000 principal for 2009-2013 charges (200 per year) + 3,000 of late payment fees on that sum - the specifics are as follows: 

The Co. Council letter dates 15th August states: the total amount of NPPR charge for me and anyone like me who has paid nil till now is:
'*4,220 *in respect of each property.'
to be paid by 31 August.  
If unpaid - as mentioned on another thread - it becomes *7,230 *owing on 1 Sept 2014. Which is why I stated my firm intention to pay principal by bank draft before end this month - and enclose a letter of appeal.

so anyway - that was just to clarify detailed numbers involved.

Back to topic.

any other voices out there for taking a case as a group?

cheers.
MAT


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Aug 2014)

Billy Timmins of the Reform Alliance was on Morning Ireland calling for the date for the "amnesty" to be extended from 31 August to 31 October. 

He wasn't very convincing and the interviewer made him look like like an idiot. 

It's a misguided objective. The objective should be to make the penalties proportionate. 

I met a former barrister at the weekend, who reckoned that a legal challenge had a good chance of being successful on the grounds that it was grossly disproportionate.


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## valparaiso (26 Aug 2014)

You could argue that but what are you waiting for? you now know that the thing is increasing exponentially so why not pay now before it's double trouble?

The disproportionate argument isn't going to convince a judge. Isn't €90 fine for clamping disproportionate for the 20 cent you didn't put in for those last 20 mins. I haven't heard anyone arguing disproportionality on that one!


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## dermotneary (26 Aug 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Billy Timmins of the Reform Alliance was on Morning Ireland calling for the date for the "amnesty" to be extended from 31 August to 31 October.




The deadline does need to be extended to allow time to agree phased payment arrangements.

The local authorities aren't able to cope with the number of enquries they are receiving this week.


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## T McGibney (26 Aug 2014)

valparaiso said:


> The disproportionate argument isn't going to convince a judge.



Don't bet on it. Laws are often struck down on such principles.


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## =MAT= (27 Aug 2014)

I agree. As the OP, my objective continues to be - to see if there are any other folks out there who would come together to take a legal challenge - about the disproportionate penalties. 
(Principal amount has been paid by me for 31 August deadline along with my letter of appeal)


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## dereko1969 (27 Aug 2014)

What is your appeal based on?


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## =MAT= (27 Aug 2014)

If you don't mind - I am not sure there is much point getting into that here. I have taken advice about the content of that communication to the Council and I am content with that. 
For this thread - my only question for now is if there are people out there - willing to take a case... based purely on the extortionate penalties. Sorry I don't want to get off-point.


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## shoegal (27 Aug 2014)

I'm obviously missing something here but if you have paid the amounts owing - in Mat's case the €1000- by then end of August, then surely the penalities don't apply? I thought that was the idea of putting the August dealine in place. I know a relative of mine owed about €400 in missed payments but cleared that last month and was told by the Co Council that was the end of it - and not to worry about any interest/penalty amounts. Is that incorrect or not?


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## rob oyle (27 Aug 2014)

shoegal said:


> I'm obviously missing something here but if you have paid the amounts owing - in Mat's case the €1000- by then end of August, then surely the penalities don't apply?


 
If you didn't pay previously, then there are penalties already applying (on top of the annual €200 charges). There are going to be further penalties if outstanding sums aren't paid by the end of the month.


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## =MAT= (27 Aug 2014)

The penalties apply to me and anyone who did not pay the 200 euro each year over the five years (on time per annum in 2009 to 2013). With every month that passed since 2009 - the penalties accumulate until 31 August 2014. The period of grace is a period that ends 31 August (this weekend).  After this time my principal amount owing (1000 euro had I paid it on time) becomes 7,230.  If I pay this week - I would pay 4,220 in order for the Council to deem me as paid up.  Hope that clarifies...


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## Brendan Burgess (28 Aug 2014)

Hi MAT

I too hope you get an appeal going.  I think you have a good chance of winning it.  

I am amazed that you have not got more response and support.  

From a practical point of view, you should try to pay it by tomorrow's deadline and then appeal it afterwards. 

Brendan


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## dermotneary (28 Aug 2014)

Finally some common sense…


Check out Paul McSweeney from the Local Government Management Agency speaking on Highland Radio today


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## wbbs (28 Aug 2014)

Let the Joe Duffy public know you are planning an appeal, lots of people on there all week who would be interested I imagine.  

Some very unusual stories like the woman who swapped house with her parents as father was ill and couldn't manage stairs and she had a ground floor bedroom/bathroom.  As the houses are not within 2 km of each other they are now both caught for the tax and penalties, that definitely is an unfair one.


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## pilotsnipes (29 Aug 2014)

I'd be interested Mat


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## moneybox (29 Aug 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi MAT
> 
> I too hope you get an appeal going. I think you have a good chance of winning it.
> 
> ...


 
I just posted a comment on this tax on this thread http//www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=188893 and especially the consequences it has on emigrants living abroad. I want to wish Mat the best of luck in his appeal, please keep us posted.


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## ang1170 (29 Aug 2014)

wbbs said:


> Let the Joe Duffy public know you are planning an appeal, lots of people on there all week who would be interested I imagine.
> .


 
Covered in the program today (though thankfully Joe himself was away).

I didn't hear all of it, but what was striking was that (a) everyone was saying they had no issue with paying the original charge and (b) how disproportionate the penalty is.

To those who say: it's up to you to make yourself aware of charges and taxes, there was a couple of examples of people who emigrated. They didn't know about the charge, not being aware of the radio and newspaper ads which were apparently the only way that it was signalled (and apparently many of these misleadingly referred to second homes). 

It all seems grossly unfair: as someone pointed out we've had two amnesties on the past where penalties were waived for people who knowingly evaded tax, so why insist on them for people who are willing to pay once made aware they had to? I'm sure some proportionate residual penalty would be accepted by those affected, but the existing penalty is way over the top given the circumstances, much less the increased one from next month.


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## jdpl28 (1 Sep 2014)

I'm Interested Mat - I'm the OP on a previous post below, got stung for 2+k while living overseas. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to round up a few more to add to your case. Personally I'm aware of one other couple in the same boat - a bit of googling will uncover hundreds. 

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=180288

PM me if theres anything I can help with.

Cheers,
Justin


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## =MAT= (2 Sep 2014)

Many thanks for all the goodwill and advice out there from posters like Dermot, Sahd and Brendan and others... 

Just to say I will now move forward with the case, once the legal advice stays on my side to do so. As mentioned at the start of this thread, I did pay the principal last week along with a letter of appeal regarding the extortionate penalties for late payment.

One has to feel a bit sorry for the local Councils dealing with this, it can't be easy. The Joe Duffy show outlined the fact they were simply overwhelmed by the NPPR issue.

Cheers folks!


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## =MAT= (2 Sep 2014)

P.S.  I will contact pilotsnipes and Justin once I get my act together - re: appeal.


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## stumpymonkey (2 Sep 2014)

I'm writing from the UK on behalf of my elderly parents. They're both Irish but living in England. They bought a small cottage in Co Offaly some years ago and all of the family use it for occasionally for holidays to Eire.
They, nor any of us, knew anything about this tax until a family member living in Eire was also 'caught' as they have a second home on the coast.
Like Mat they've been hit with a bill for €4200 for something they knew nothing about.
They have owned the house for over 20 years and pay all their local taxes and bills. The first actual written bill they had was for the figure mentioned above which was posted to the Offaly address a few weeks ago.
I find the whole thing appalling. It would never, ever happen like this in the UK. How can they be expected to know of a tax imposed in another country having never had any correspondence from the Irish Government.
To me this is a mean, unpleasant and underhanded way to raise revenue. 
My parents are law abiding citizens who love the land of their birth. They are both in their 70's and really could do without this upset.
Had they known about this years ago, they would have paid as they do with all the other charges relating to the cottage. 
Personally, this has left a bad taste in my mouth.


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## RainyDay (3 Sep 2014)

stumpymonkey said:


> I'm writing from the UK on behalf of my elderly parents. They're both Irish but living in England. They bought a small cottage in Co Offaly some years ago and all of the family use it for occasionally for holidays to Eire.
> They, nor any of us, knew anything about this tax until a family member living in Eire was also 'caught' as they have a second home on the coast.
> Like Mat they've been hit with a bill for €4200 for something they knew nothing about.
> They have owned the house for over 20 years and pay all their local taxes and bills. The first actual written bill they had was for the figure mentioned above which was posted to the Offaly address a few weeks ago.
> ...



So who collects post from the Offaly address? Is there a possibility that the initial letters were sent but ignored, or got lost in junk mail? In fairness, if you have a house in a country, you need some way of managing your affairs there.  How do you expect the Govt to deal with the property owner?


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## Dermot (3 Sep 2014)

RainyDay said:


> So who collects post from the Offaly address? Is there a possibility that the initial letters were sent but ignored, or got lost in junk mail? In fairness, if you have a house in a country, you need some way of managing your affairs there.  How do you expect the Govt to deal with the property owner?



The main point at issue here.  There was no postal communication Good Bad or otherwise about the NPPR for anybody until about August of this year and that was to notify people that if they did not settle the bill etc there would be an extra large penalty coming into force on the 01/09/2014. 
I have a lot of sympathy for ex Pats in this particular scenario.
BTW. I did not suffer from this extortion as I was fully compliant.


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## =MAT= (4 Sep 2014)

On a (totally unrelated but potential amusing) follow-up note to Dermot about ex-pats (near and far) getting absolutely zero correspondence regarding NPPR liability until the recent 15 August 2014 letter they sent me and stumpymonkey's unfortunate & needlessly upset elderly parents in England ...

I was a little amused to see that Irish Water found me here in the wilds of Northern Ireland... their letter about water charges for the Dublin house arrived promptly yesterday! They must have their Revenue records straight at least. Fair play to them.

But back to the topic - should anyone else want to add themselves to my list for appeal - please do so today/tmoro - as I get the act together this week to proceed.


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## stumpymonkey (4 Sep 2014)

Hi, my fathers brother-in-law collects thee post on a regular basis and forwards it on. The ONLY correspondence on this matter was the bill for €4200 with the threat to claim and extra €3000 if the demand wasn't settled by 1 Sept. 
You'll never meet a more law abiding couple than my parents. They visit Eire at least 4 times a year and knew absolutely nothing of this charge until the final demand! 
As I said, all taxes etc are paid to Offaly Council and have been since they bought the house some 30 years ago. The Council know exactly who owns the place and sent no communication whatsoever about this tax. They should be ashamed of themselves.


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## pilotsnipes (5 Sep 2014)

=MAT= said:


> But back to the topic - should anyone else want to add themselves to my list for appeal - please do so today/tmoro - as I get the act together this week to proceed.




@Mat - out of interest, do you recommend sending a letter of appeal as well. 

I like yourself, have paid the penalties last week - but I haven't sent in a separate letter about this issue and i'm beginning to think it might be a good idea to at least have some record of objection to the fees.


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## =MAT= (8 Sep 2014)

Sorry for belated reply. I would personally advise you to lodge a letter to appeal the disprportionate penalties paid by you and explain your grounds for making an appeal.

As regards the appeal discussed in this thread: 
the AAM administrator has kindly agreed to email a note from me about the upcoming NPPR-appeal meeting planned to interested parties.


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## Gman (24 Sep 2014)

Mat, I am an emigrant living in the USA and just became aware of this ridiculous charge in the last few days. I am also in the process of selling the Property and it looks like I will have to pay the Euro 7.2k charge on a property worth about 200k. It seems like extortion and grossly unfair on people living in a different country who were unaware of this. It makes Ireland look like a banana republic. I would like to join the legal challenge also , although I will probably have to pay the charge to be able to sell the place. Please keep us posted and let me know if you need contact details to join this legal challenge. Whoever the idiots are that decided these grossly unfair penalties, should be held accountable.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2014)

RainyDay said:


> Is there a possibility that the initial letters were sent but ignored, or got lost in junk mail? In fairness, if you have a house in a country, you need some way of managing your affairs there. How do you expect the Govt to deal with the property owner?


 
I too wish to point out RainyDay that I as a non resident did not receive correspondance, *until after*, I registered in the first year of this. And this notification did not come from all county councils to me or others that I know in my family who are landlords. 

Advertising in the national media is useless to foreign residents, even if you read online news you are not going to notice an ad.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2014)

Gman said:


> , although I will probably have to pay the charge to be able to sell the place. .


 
Yes you will have to pay the charge to sell.  But you ought to separately object to your local council council.  

In addition the solicitor for the purchaser will require proof that you have paid the household charge, and the LPT (local property tax).


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## =MAT= (25 Sep 2014)

Gman - I send my sympathies to you! It is a bit of a bad dream for most of us - but I am by now over it and want to take action and try to fight this if we have a quorum of people with energy to do so. Bronte is right that the three different taxes to be paid before you can sell, but the local propoerty taxes are reasonable amounts so I imagine you will be happy to pay them and they do not carry any disproportionate penalties like NPPR.

The NPPR appeal group has not gathered yet, so you are in time to join us. Since you and I and quite a few of the people who want to appeal this matter are away, we would need to skype perhaps? I am currently looking to options for a face-face meeting in Dublin or M50 in October and/or a virtual meeting and am very open to ideas.

MAT


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## dublinjan (3 Oct 2014)

*Collective challenge to the NPPR*

Mat I am interested.  I live in New Zealand and knew nothing of the tax.  My Council is Dublin City Council

There is at least one individual posting on the thread below, whom you might want to contact (scroll right down to the bottom)
mcgibney.ie/2012/06/14/nppr-deadline-only-2-weeks-away

I would be interested to see what can be acheived collaboratively

I can receive emails from other Askaboutmoney users, if you'd like to email me directly

Dublinjan


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## =MAT= (5 Oct 2014)

Helpful to know that.

Be in touch.

MAT


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## =MAT= (12 Oct 2014)

Re: NPPR open meeting:

For those interested in meeting up about penalties for late NPPR payments - we are considering a hotel just off the M50 on a weekday evening 8pm. (If you have thoughts about better location/time, do mention it asap. The date is in 2-3 weeks.)

We will be in touch later this week by private email through the AAM administrator.

cheers
MAT


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## dublinjan (28 Oct 2014)

MAT I received your message from Brendan and will respond.  

An anther note I heard today from an individual who paid his NPPR dues and subsequently appealed.  He said 'leitrim cc yesterday awarded me a 50% refund from the late payment fine part of the tax.'


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## =MAT= (29 Oct 2014)

wonderful 
that is good news
hope to see you on 3rd
cheers 
MAT


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## dublinjan (17 Nov 2014)

Dear MAT
It would be good to hear back, following the 3rd November, and to know what the outccome was.  
You also mentioned a Skype meeting, for overseas people, and it would be good to know whether this is stil planned
It would be helpful if you could communicate, so that I can decide whether to pay or whether to challenge my own bill.  As you know, I'm interested to collaborate
Thanks - my phone number is in my email.  I've sent several follow-up emails 
Jan


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## =MAT= (19 Nov 2014)

Thanks Jan - I had some obstacles to contact last week. Back in touch now, Cheers.


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