# Will filing bankrupcy in UK clear my Irish debt?



## OnTheHouse

I have lived in the UK with over a year. I own an apartment in Ireland with over 100k negative equity. I am current with my payments but can't keep this up. 

I have done some research into the the procedure of filing bankruptcy in the UK. I am told that it will take 12 - 36 months to complete. The reason I am considering this is to clear my Irish mortgage which I intend to stop paying once I file for bankruptcy in the UK. 

I need some GOOD legal advice to find out if this will solve my Irish problem? Will the Irish bank still pursue me and for how long and to what extent?

thank you...


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## Time

Once you are declared bankrupt in the Uk, you cannot be pursued by the Irish banks. Their debts will go into the UK bankruptcy and will be dealt with by the UK courts system. The banks in Ireland won't like it but there is very little that they can do about it. 

A good insolvency practitioner in the UK would be well able to advise you.


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## Jim2007

Time said:


> The banks in Ireland won't like it but there is very little that they can do about it.



That is something I've been wondering about for a while now, under EU rules for the free movement of people, one is only entitled to stay on in a country after the first 3 months allowed for job search, if one can show economic viability.  Declaring bankruptcy would suggest otherwise, so is there any way an Irish creditor could trigger a deportation of the person declaring bankruptcy???

Just a thought...

Jim


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## Time

LOL!

Not a chance. The rules are very different for the UK. Irish people are considered settled in the UK under UK law and cannot be deported.
In any event it is a civil matter and persons cannot be deported over civil matters. A debt owing is not a criminal matter actionable by law enforcement agencies.


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## OnTheHouse

The reason I am asking is that I am getting conflicting information. Some people are telling me that should I return to Ireland the bank can still be pursue me despite declaring bankruptcy in the UK??? ..... Has anyone actually done this? I would love to hear from you.... thanks!


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## Time

If the Irish debts has been dealt with by a UK bankruptcy and you have been discharged from the bankruptcy, the Irish banks can do nothing should you ever decide to return at some time in the future. The debt at that stage is dead and gone.


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## movingon77

HI

Im in a similiar situation, although mine is more complicated as i moved to the UK 2 years ago and rented out my 2 bed appartment i still received the Mortgage Interest relief for first time buyers and didnt pay tax on the rental income. 

If i file for bankruptcy in the UK could the Irish revenue come after me at some point in the future (if i ever return home) as my case is tax evasion rather than a case of tax liability??

Could i claim that all debt (i.e. any revenue bill) accrued before bankruptcy should have been included in the bankruptcy?

Would i be best to write to the revenue and come clean and then but all debt into the bankruptcy?

Any knowledge on this would be appreciated.


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## Tomorrow

Hi onthehouse

I was at a recent course run by insolvency practitioners in Derry.

According to them the Irish Banks cannot pursue you once bankruptcy is declared in the UK, they also stated that they have dealt with many individuals who have done this

All debts come under the bankruptcy umbrella.

I hope this helps - I am not sure but I think they may offer a free consultation, it was Ronan from Mc Cambridge Duffy

Tomorrow


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## movingon77

Tomorrow thanks for that answer it
may help me in my situation too.

i have been told though that ''The bankruptcy would only take care of your unsecured debts so you need to go for a voluntary repossession of the property in ROI so that the shortfall on the mortgage is then unsecured''

Are you aware if taxes (revenue bill) can be totally written of
in any bankruptcy?

Does anyone know any good insolvency practicianer in the UK?

or ideally an Irish person who has been through this process or is currently going through this process?

Thanks


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## Time

> i have been told though that ''The bankruptcy would only take care of  your unsecured debts so you need to go for a voluntary repossession of  the property in ROI so that the shortfall on the mortgage is then  unsecured''


Correct. You need them to be chasing you for the shortfall before declaring bankruptcy in the UK.


> Are you aware if taxes (revenue bill) can be totally written of
> in any bankruptcy?


They are.


> Does anyone know any good insolvency practicianer in the UK?


The phone book is full of them.


> or ideally an Irish person who has been through this process or is currently going through this process?


I doubt anyone is going to declare that on this site for fear of the backlash from bank shareholders and moral guardians.


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## Brendan Burgess

> Ronan from Mc Cambridge Duffy



is based in Derry and I have also found him very informed and very helpful. As he has a lot of experience of Irish people going to the UK for bankruptcy, he is well worth talking to.

Evading tax is a criminal offence. While the debt may disappear, the Revenue could subsequently pursue you for criminal evasion of taxes. Unlikely but worth pointing out. 



> i  have been told though that ''The bankruptcy would only take care of   your unsecured debts so you need to go for a voluntary repossession of   the property in ROI so that the shortfall on the mortgage is then   unsecured''





> Correct. You need them to be chasing you for the shortfall before declaring bankruptcy in the UK.



Getting rid of a mortgage is not that simple. I have not been able to get anything definitive on this. As Time points out, bankruptcy only covers unsecured debts. You would need to somehow convert the mortgage into an unsecured debt which is not easy.


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## Luternau

Brendan Burgess said:


> Getting rid of a mortgage is not that simple. I have not been able to get anything definitive on this. As Time points out, bankruptcy only covers unsecured debts. You would need to somehow convert the mortgage into an unsecured debt which is not easy.



Would it be an option for the poster to sell the property and then have bank demanding payment of the shortfall? Just a thought.

I have a question of my own on this.
With regards to meeting the required residency and economic interest requirements, would a person have to have give up this job before going the uk bankrupcy route?  

Brendan/Time
Given that debt problems reach the top of the spike after unemployment peaks, we are not even close to the summit of this debt problem.
Do you think there is merit in posting the options open to people on going the bankruptcy route in the UK and the requirements they must meet?  While not advocating people to go this route in mass, it might be invaluable to some with large debts they will never be ablel to meet.


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## Time

> Would it be an option for the poster to sell the property and then have bank demanding payment of the shortfall? Just a thought.


Not really. The sale of the house would not complete because of the shortfall. The bank would have to give permission for the sale to proceed. 


> With regards to meeting the required residency and economic interest  requirements, would a person have to have give up this job before going  the uk bankrupcy route?


Not necessarily. If the person had a job they would have to pay the official assignee an amount from the wages for the period of the bankruptcy which would be a year in the UK.


> Brendan/Time
> Given that debt problems reach the top of the spike after unemployment  peaks, we are not even close to the summit of this debt problem.
> Do you think there is merit in posting the options open to people on  going the bankruptcy route in the UK and the requirements they must  meet?  While not advocating people to go this route in mass, it might be  invaluable to some with large debts they will never be ablel to meet.


Personally I agree. I doubt the Irish government will reform the bankruptcy laws any time soon.


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## Brendan Burgess

Luternau said:


> Do you think there is merit in posting the options open to people on going the bankruptcy route in the UK and the requirements they must meet?  While not advocating people to go this route in mass, it might be invaluable to some with large debts they will never be ablel to meet.



Luternau 

Great idea and thanks very much for volunteering to do  a Key Post. Let me know when you have it done.


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## maryb

From my research on this topic I found out the following.
You can only declare unsecured debt in your bankruptcy. You would need to hand back the keys of the property to the bank and agree to them selling it. The shortfall would then be included in your bankruptcy. You include all your creditors in the bankruptcy so you would include the amount owed to the Revenue as well.
Although you are free from bankruptcy after one year, you may have to pay a percentage of your income for 3 years.
There seems to be a huge industry in the UK for bankruptcy and not all advice is impartial.
bankruptcyhelp dot org dot uk seems to be a good site for information - I can't post URLs yet


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## movingon77

Thanks Maryb

This is pretty much what i have found out as well, i presume if one were to hand back the keys to the bank, the bank would agree to sell the house as they would not be receiving any income from the property so therefore it would be in there best interest to sell the property?

From what i have sussed out the bankruptcy would then stay on your record for 6 years in the UK.

But what im struggling to find out is would it appear on the Irish bankruptcy record, i presume it would.
How long would it appear on the Irish record for??

Anyone with any knowlege on this, it would be greatly appreciated.


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## Time

> How long would it appear on the Irish record for??


5 years.


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## OnTheHouse

So, do I need a full foreclosure judgement against me in the ROI before I start the bankruptcy procedure in the UK?
If I hand back the keys to the bank today, how long does it take before the bank will have a full foreclosure judgement against me? 

thanks!!


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## Bronte

If you hand back the keys and sign the necessary legal papers for the bank there is no reason for them to get a judgment against you is there if you tell them you are going bankrupt.  Not sure how this works though in practice.  Why don't you contact the bank and see what they say.  Mortgages department in Dublin not your local branch.


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## Time

You need to box clever here.

The bank still needs a judgement in the high court even where there is a voluntary surrender. If the bank get wind of a bankruptcy in the offing they will simply sit on their hands. You need them to convert the mortgage into an unsecured debt. They won't want to lose out. If you tip them off they will wait until your UK bankruptcy is over and then hit you with the shortfall.


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## Bronte

Why do the bank still need a judgment against you.  Can you not come to an arrangement with the bank to repay the negative equity back over time?

In any case for Onthehouse you are saying either he stops paying the mortgage or hands back the keys but do not tell the bank he is filing for bankruptcy and then the bank ends up selling the house at a loss plus costs which they will then get a judgment for against him.  But it is now unsecured which is what he needs for it to be taken care of by the bankruptcy.

In that scenario he is probably better off not even telling them he is in the UK.


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## Time

Correct. He is best not revealing his hand at all.

Even where a homeowner hands back the keys the bank legally must get a possession order.


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## dereko1969

With all this advice to declare bankruptcy in the UK I think people should point out the implications, if any, of doing so over there and here or in the rest of the EU? 

Does it make your life more difficult with regard to getting loans, costs of insurance etc? We seem to be only getting one side of the story here. I don't actually know if there is another side to the story but I would presume everyone would just go bankrupt if there were no consequences?


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## Time

Derek, of course there are consequences. Well getting credit will be out of the question for many years, but most people in this situation have damaged credit ratings already so that is of very little concern to them. You can't be a director of a limited company or run for public office. Again of little consequence to the average Joe escaping the tyranny of the banks here.

As for cost of insurance, nonsense. Why would being bankrupt make your insurance dearer?


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## Bronte

Time said:


> Even where a homeowner hands back the keys the bank legally must get a possession order.


 
Why us that? I had assumed in the scenario of handing back the keys that one could also sign documents to tranfer title.  

(I'm always asking you questions Time on this are area of law so I hope you don't mind but you are so knowledgeable on this area that I'm sure your advice is invaluable to people in dire straights financially).


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## dereko1969

Time said:


> Derek, of course there are consequences. Well getting credit will be out of the question for many years, but most people in this situation have damaged credit ratings already so that is of very little concern to them. You can't be a director of a limited company or run for public office. Again of little consequence to the average Joe escaping the tyranny of the banks here.
> 
> *As for cost of insurance, nonsense*. Why would being bankrupt make your insurance dearer?


 
Not sure why it's nonsense but if someone has no other source of potential credit could it make them more likely to inflate a claim? I don't know the dark arts of insurance rating but I think it was a valid question to ask.


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## Time

I have never ever seen such a question on an insurance form. It would insinuate that a bankrupt is nothing more than a criminal.


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## Luternau

dereko1969 said:


> Not sure why it's nonsense but if someone has no other source of potential credit could it make them more likely to inflate a claim? I don't know the dark arts of insurance rating but I think it was a valid question to ask.



Being bankrupt is not a crime, inflating an insurance claim is. There is also a big jump between the two. First, they would have to have an insurable loss, and then they must decide to inflate it. Both have nothing to do with being bankrupt!
I would also wonder if there is evidence of this being more likely to be perpetrated by a bankrupt? I doubt it.


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## Magpie

Question on converting the mortgage to an unsecured debt: What if there is little to no prospect of the bank selling the house? If you are so far into negative equity that the house is in effect worthless, the bank can not sell it either and pursue you for the shortfall. What procedure would happen then?


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## Time

It would hang over you like a dagger until such time as it could be sold. This is the reason there are very few actual repossessions yet.


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## Magpie

Nobody seems to be talking about this aspect of it though. Can the bank sell my home for some magic beans and a pint of plain and pursue me for 300k, or do we both just sit around twiddling our thumbs until the house is worth what we paid for it, which will be long after the bank manager and I will be cold in our graves?


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## dereko1969

Luternau said:


> Being bankrupt is not a crime, inflating an insurance claim is. There is also a big jump between the two. First, they would have to have an insurable loss, and then they must decide to inflate it. Both have nothing to do with being bankrupt!
> I would also wonder if there is evidence of this being more likely to be perpetrated by a bankrupt? I doubt it.


 
Sorry I wasn't trying in any way to state that declaring bankruptcy was criminal or that those doing so were more likely to commit criminal acts, I was just asking a question about the possible implications of declaring bankruptcy on other financial transactions and insurance was one that came to mind. 

Looks like I may have disproved the theory that there's no such thing as a stupid question!


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## Time

Magpie said:


> Nobody seems to be talking about this aspect of it though. Can the bank sell my home for some magic beans and a pint of plain and pursue me for 300k, or do we both just sit around twiddling our thumbs until the house is worth what we paid for it, which will be long after the bank manager and I will be cold in our graves?


Unless the banks put the houses up for auction with no reserve price, they won't sell. I suppose they could be sold for a very small amount but then the bank would fail to get the best price. It is a difficult one.

You could buy a house for $100 during the great fire sales in the USA. Could it happen here?


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## Mrs Vimes

The US is a very different case.

They have non-recourse mortgages so the former owner/mortgagor has no interest in the sale price and could even buy it back themselves if they wished.

The real difference however is that there would be taxes due on the houses being sold for such incredibly low money - I read of houses for sale for $100 but with back-taxes of many thousands which the new owner would be liable for. Add in the neighbourhoods of Detroit in question, and it all adds up to a money-pit.

To answer magpie, banks do have a duty to their (ex) customers to get the best price for a repossessed house, although what that would be in current circumstances could be a matter for some arguement.


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## Magpie

There's no real answer is there? I'm not unique in having a house that is, to all intents and purposes, entirely worthless. It's in an area where there is a plethora of bigger, nicer, better properties sitting empty unable to sell. A neighbour has a house on the market which is similar but bigger and despite more than halving the price can't even get a viewing. 

It wasn't an issue until now, for various reasons we are struggling to pay the mortgage and looking at options, but no-one can tell us how reposessions etc work with a worthless house.


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## maryb

I suppose that nobody can tell you about the bank reposessing the house as there aren't that many reposessions in Ireland. In the UK there are a lot more.
I would assume that you'd go to the bank and tell them that you are unable to service the mortgage and are voluntarily handing back the keys. You are also giving them permission to sell the house. Of course they are entitled to pursue you for the shortfall and this is when you would declare yourself bankrupt.
Part of the terms of the IMF/EU bailout was that Ireland's bankruptcy laws be modernised by March 2012. Therefore remaining in Ireland and declaring yourself bankrupt is also an option. However, I don't know what the ins and outs of Irish bankruptcy will be. One of the points made in the law reform's recommendation was that the family home remains in the bankruptcy. Not sure what the position is if the family home is in negative equity. If this is the case in the UK then you can usually stay in the family home. If Irish bankruptcy becomes more accessible then I would predict that property will fall further in value.


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## JoeB

Of course, given that the banks are state owned it's not in the general publics interest to see bankruptcies increase.

So hopefully the government is telling the banks not to release the security on the loans for any reason. (and ideally the government will introduce a criminal law that results in a mandatory prison sentence for bank employees that ignore this)


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## chris20051

Hi Time,

Is it possible to declare personal bankrupcy in Northern Ireland(Belfast) and not travel to England,is there any difference in the proceedings from travelling North or accross the waters to Manchester or London? I have done some research myself and it looks to me like Belfast is a very possible option? 
I also believe I would need to set up home and work in the North for approx 6-7 months then declare im bankrupcy to clear my Irish deaths?


Thanks
Chris


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## Steve Thatcher

*bankruptcy in England*

Hello posters, I notice that a call has gone out for an insolvency expert fron the Uk to advice on whether you can go bankrupt here in England and write off your Irish debts.
The original poster is already in the UK and so he will have established his COMI here. Ie England is his centre of main interest. That is the case even if all his debt is in Ireland. Any member of any EU country can declare bankruptcy in any other EU state and the proceddings are recognised on their own country.
Via this rule I have helped Latvians, Lithuanians and Irish citizens goe bankrupt here in the last year.
Establishing your COMI is the key. You cannot simply fly in, fill in your bankruptcy forms andhave a hearing and fly out. As there are no Comi issues I will not address that in this posting.

Under English insolvency rules it actually doesn't matter if the house in this case has already been repossessed or their is not a monetary judgment for the shorfall on the mortgage.
The reason for this is that upon the making of the bankruptcy order, the beneficial ownership of the property vests by operation of law into the Official Receiver. He then decides if he wants the property. He will only decide to keep it if it has equity he can realise. Not a situation here. So he says to the bank, ok you have it back, realise hat you can for me and tell me what he shortfall is. That is the sum then written off in the bankruptcy.
Our poster could of course simply hand the keys back in to the bank and tell them he is going bankrupt, the effect is the same. 
Now some effects of bankrupcty. Your assets vest in  the official receiver, so any shares, cash, positive balances at credit union or bank, all belong to the OR for the benefit of the creditors. You may keep a vehicle for work and travel to interviews with a value up to £2000.
You keep your pensions absolutely unless they have been grossly overfunded or the scheme is not an approved one. I have yet to see that.
Your job here in the UK is unaffected.
Your bank account could be frozen but I know two banks which will open an account and keep it open.
You are bankrupt for just one year.
You cannot be a company director only during the time you are bankrupt.

If you have excess income the Official receiver can take the surplus for 36 months. I have some great allowances I use to keep any surplus down.

In short as a way to deal once and for all with your investment property and other property debt, it is the perfect solution.


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## JoeB

How does the Official Receiver gain access to bank accounts in different countries? What is the process?, does he write to irish banks, saying that the individuals assets are now  under his control? (What if an Irish Bank refuses to acknowledge UK court orders?..)

Can the bank sell the house for a pittance?, or do they have to realise a fair price?

Who values the car? (must be less than 2,000)

Can tradesmen keep their tools? (i.e plasterers etc)? Any limits on this?

Who decides if a pension if massively overfunded? (And why should a pension be keep away from creditors)

You can no longer hold your seat in the Dail once declared bankrupt.


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## Steve Thatcher

JoeBallantin said:


> How does the Official Receiver gain access to bank accounts in different countries? What is the process?, does he write to irish banks, saying that the individuals assets are now under his control? (What if an Irish Bank refuses to acknowledge UK court orders?..)
> 
> Can the bank sell the house for a pittance?, or do they have to realise a fair price?
> 
> Who values the car? (must be less than 2,000)
> 
> Can tradesmen keep their tools? (i.e plasterers etc)? Any limits on this?
> 
> Who decides if a pension if massively overfunded? (And why should a pension be keep away from creditors)
> 
> You can no longer hold your seat in the Dail once declared bankrupt.


 
Hi Joe
When you present your petition for bankruptcy you also have to fill in and file a statement of affairs. This is a 28 page document in which you set out your contact details and a list of your assets, liabilities (both secured and unsecured), your income and your expenditure and also details such as your savings and bank accounts.
It is the information which is put on these forms which helps the Official Receiver decide who to write to.
So for instance you put the names and addresses of your creditors down so the OR can tell them he is now dealing with your affairs and that thye are to write to him from hence forth.
All creditors have to accept his authority as it flows from EU law which has been ratified by convention in each country.

As for selling thr property it is in the banks interest to get the best price. Remember the property has no equity and therefore the OR is not expecting a return. Any shortfall is written off in the bankruptcy and so the only entity with an interest in what the property goes for is the bank. If it sells short it suffers the loss.

The car is vlaued using a Glasses guide or similar. If there seems to be more value than allowable the OR can ask you to make him an offer. If there is a lot of equity he will ask for it to be delivered up so he can sell it at auction and he will give you £2000 in return for a new vehicle.

A tradesman can keep their tools. Also anything in the house used for normal living including plasma tv's are left. There is a section on the form to state if there are any antiques of value. Nobody has ever admitted to me that they have them, and the OR has never investigated this. He very much takes the answers given at face value. This is because the form has a statement of truth attached which he relys on.

The rules about pensions changed about 10 years ago. The problem was that  people were being discharged from bankruptcy and 20 years later on retirement way after discharge, they were getting letters claiming their pensions. It was seen as wholly unfair and hence the law was changed to make the whole issue of bankruptcy finalised in just three years. (and this only where there is an income payments agreement, or a property with equity)

No you can't be an MP. In all honesty not something I expect to be advising on.

Hope this helps


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## Time

> You can no longer hold your seat in the Dail once declared bankrupt.


Hardly an issue for most.


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## JoeB

No, but it should have been an issue for Beverly Cooper Flynn, who lost her court case against the RTE, and costs or whatever, about 2 million or thereabouts was awarded against her.

She was bankrupted (or claimed immense difficulty in paying) , and should have lost her seat,.. but RTE kindly waived the costs. What was that about?.. why take a case if when you win you kindly walk away. That seems like corruption to me.


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## time2

I just came upon this post and it is very helpful.
Just a question regarding the rules for bankruptcy in UK.... do you have to be actually residing in the UK before the judgement for unsecured debt occurs or can you move to UK after a bank secures a judgement against you? And what if the bank gets an IRISH court order declaring you bankrupt first (before you get a chance to move to UK)
Just another note.. is it just the UK that has the best bankruptcy laws? What about if one were to emigrate to another EU country such as Spain or even outside EU such as Canada?


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## Time

> And what if the bank gets an IRISH court order declaring you bankrupt first (before you get a chance to move to UK)


It would never happen. Banks here do not do this. 


> Just another note.. is it just the UK that has the best bankruptcy laws?  What about if one were to emigrate to another EU country such as Spain  or even outside EU such as Canada?


You would need to speak to a bankruptcy expert.


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## Steve Thatcher

time2 said:


> I just came upon this post and it is very helpful.
> Just a question regarding the rules for bankruptcy in UK.... do you have to be actually residing in the UK before the judgement for unsecured debt occurs or can you move to UK after a bank secures a judgement against you? And what if the bank gets an IRISH court order declaring you bankrupt first (before you get a chance to move to UK)
> Just another note.. is it just the UK that has the best bankruptcy laws? What about if one were to emigrate to another EU country such as Spain or even outside EU such as Canada?


 
Hello it doesn't matter whether your debt is unsecured, or secured but not yet repossesed, or that you have a judgement against you. All of these debts can and will be written off. The Judgement and unsecured is self explanitory. The secured will be written off as your interest in the property will vest in the Official Receiver.
It seems that it is widely acknowledged that England and Wales are the most favorable places to go bankrupt in the EU


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## Time

Agreed Steve.


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## time2

Steve Thatcher said:


> Hello it doesn't matter whether your debt is unsecured, or secured but not yet repossesed, or that you have a judgement against you. All of these debts can and will be written off. The Judgement and unsecured is self explanitory. The secured will be written off as your interest in the property will vest in the Official Receiver.
> It seems that it is widely acknowledged that England and Wales are the most favorable places to go bankrupt in the EU


 


Thanks Steve, 
Just another question please,
If one decides to file for bankruptcy in UK do the courts INCLUDE ALL your assets and liabilities in the mix whether you like it or not? Can one decide to continue to service certain debts such as a manageable mortgage (thereby holding onto this asset) but just include the debt from another investment mortgage (the one that is unmanageable) in the bankruptcy application?


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## Wipetheslate

Hi Time,
Can you clarify if you need your mortgages to be converted to 
Unsecured debt ,by either a repossesion or voluntary means ,in order to proced to declaring bankruptcy in the UK ,from an earlier post I thought you stated that it was necessary to wait until this was the case before proceding. Thanks .


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## Time

It now seems you don't have to wait. It is all taken care of by the OR.


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## Steve Thatcher

Time said:


> It now seems you don't have to wait. It is all taken care of by the OR.


 
Hi Time, if you have sole property, that as I said vests in the OR and he can decide what he does with it. If that is a matrimonial home, then it would be possible for the spouse to by it off the official receiver for £1 plus costs. She would need to get a mortgage in her own name, tio replace the existing mortgage. Not really viable. 
Better here to let the house go back to bank. Wife approach bank and say we want to stay in house. House is valued at say €200,000 , mortgage is €360,000. There will be a massive loss on sale at auction if it sells, even below the €200,000, so wife will take on mortgage for that amount. That way family gets to stay in home. Husband wipes off mortgage debt in bankruptcy, Official receiver has dealt with the case and the bank yes has suffered a loss, but at least capped its losses by not having to put it in auction.

If the house is jointly owned, it is always possible for wife to buy out Husbands share if he is going bankrupt for other debts. so the family home can be saved. If it is in neg equity the Or will probably do that transfer straight way. He can tho take up to three years to see if the market comes back and he has equity in the property. If the property is transferred back, the wife would then have sole responsibility for the mortgage and the shortfall.

Hope this helps

Steve


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## peelaaa

If you declare bankruptcy in UK with your irish property, then what happens if you happen to have a property in the UK too that isn't in negative equity?


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## Steve Thatcher

peelaaa said:


> If you declare bankruptcy in UK with your irish property, then what happens if you happen to have a property in the UK too that isn't in negative equity?


 
In that situation if you hold it in your sole name, it vests in the OR. You would need to take steps to buy it off of him for the equity value if you wanted to keep it. If it is jointly owned only half of the equity would be available to the OR and an agreement can be struck to have this transferred to the spouse for a sum close to but probably slightly less than half the equity value.


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## Bronte

Time said:


> It now seems you don't have to wait. It is all taken care of by the OR.


 
This is very confusing, your earlier advice was that the Irish mortgage had to be changed to an unsecured debt before you could go ahead with UK bankruptcy.  Are you now saying that in fact you just go to the UK following Steve's advice above and everything will be taken care of by the official receiver?


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## Irishbuk

Most houses in Ireland are in serious negative equity so if you declare Bankruptcy in the UK the Official Receiver will take no further interest in this property if he sees that no equity is likely to come back into the property within 3 years. Do a search on the net for articles on Irish citizens seeking bankruptcy in the UK and you will see quite a few relevant articles to help you


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## LauraG

interesting topic and great info here, 

If the couple are seperated with a house in 250K negative equity in joint names, can one partner head of to the UK and declare bankrupt as you describe? what happens the one that stays in Ireland (they don't work either)? will things be more complicated because it's a joint mortgage?

many thanks


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## Irishbuk

If one party to a mortgage declares bankruptcy in the UK the remaining party is fully responsible for the mortgage because it is joint and several. If the remaining party can manage the mortgage on their own they can buy the bankrupts half of the house for £1 plus fees of £200. However they then must pay the full mortgage.


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## Irishbuk

I would like to point out that if you declare Bankruptcy in the UK all your debts and judgements are wiped out and the bank cannot, under any circumstances, come after the shortfall after you are discharged in 12 months. This is European law and not just Irish or UK law.
It would be very interesting to see how a bank would react here to the threat of you declaring bankruptcy if they dont do a write down on your mortgage. You mudt first do everything to establish the UK as your centre of main interest (just google Irish Bankruptcy) and then go into negotiations with your bank. Tell them if you dont get the discount you require you will declare bankruptcy and they will have to take the house back anyway and sell it for what they can get. They cannot come after you then for any shortfall. If they threaten to take serious action against  you will be able to delay them long enough to give you the time to declare bankruptcy in the UK. You will be able to do this because we are blessed in this country with a dreadfully inefficient legal system. You can delay them with lots of correspondence, meetings and false promises and that gives you time to establish your COMI in the UK. You can easily get the drop on them.


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## Time

Very good!


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## Jim2007

Irishbuk said:


> I would like to point out that if you declare Bankruptcy in the UK all your debts and judgements are wiped out and the bank cannot, under any circumstances, come after the shortfall after you are discharged in 12 months. This is European law and not just Irish or UK law.



I have very serious doubts about this statement as the EU directive clearly places the jurisdiction for immovable property and so called entries in a public register in the hands of Irish courts not UK courts.  Here is a quote from the EU documentation: "But secondary proceedings can be opened later to liquidate assets in another Member State. The law of the Member State in which such insolvency proceedings are opened determines their effects."

I have yet to see an EU case law which indicates either way as to who has the power to absolve a debt in the case of immovable property and furthermore how would the Irish courts react, if the bank were to show that the whole purpose of the UK actions were to frustrate their rights to recover debts due to them in Ireland, in other words a sham....

I would be very interested in seeing actual case law on this topic rather than legal opinions from parties with a vested interest in the process.

Jim.


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## Steve Thatcher

Jim2007 said:


> I have very serious doubts about this statement as the EU directive clearly places the jurisdiction for immovable property and so called entries in a public register in the hands of Irish courts not UK courts. Here is a quote from the EU documentation: "But secondary proceedings can be opened later to liquidate assets in another Member State. The law of the Member State in which such insolvency proceedings are opened determines their effects."
> 
> I have yet to see an EU case law which indicates either way as to who has the power to absolve a debt in the case of immovable property and furthermore how would the Irish courts react, if the bank were to show that the whole purpose of the UK actions were to frustrate their rights to recover debts due to them in Ireland, in other words a sham....
> 
> I would be very interested in seeing actual case law on this topic rather than legal opinions from parties with a vested interest in the process.
> 
> Jim.


 
Hi Jim I covered this before. The secondary proceedings are just that, they are proceedings issued under the auspices of teh primary proceedings (ie bankruptcy of Liquidation) which enable the Trustee or Liquidator to free assets, by using an order for sale or such. They are not so someone else can come in and say this bankruptcy isn't fair.

The top bankruptcy Judges here have made it very clear that it actually doesn't matter if you choose to come to the UK simply for the purposes of going bankrupt. as long as you properly establsih your COMI (see my postings on this) you are entitled to your bankruptcy order. It is the fact of the COMi and not why you came that is important.

I hope this has cleared up some misunderstandings.

Steve


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## JoeB

And what forces the Irish courts to observe the bankruptcy?


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## JoeB

Steve Thatcher said:


> ....
> The top bankruptcy Judges here have made it very clear that it actually doesn't matter if you choose to come to the UK simply for the purposes of going bankrupt. as long as you properly establsih your COMI (see my postings on this) you are entitled to your bankruptcy order. It is the fact of the COMi and not why you came that is important.
> 
> ....



Can you provide more info on that, for example case law from a court of record?

edited to add: Just to be clear, I am asking where have these top judges made it clear that it doesn't matter to your bankruptcy case if your only reason to be in the UK is for bankruptcy?


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## Jim2007

Steve Thatcher said:


> Hi Jim I covered this before. The secondary proceedings are just that, they are proceedings issued under the auspices of teh primary proceedings (ie bankruptcy of Liquidation) which enable the Trustee or Liquidator to free assets, by using an order for sale or such. They are not so someone else can come in and say this bankruptcy isn't fair.
> 
> The top bankruptcy Judges here have made it very clear that it actually doesn't matter if you choose to come to the UK simply for the purposes of going bankrupt. as long as you properly establsih your COMI (see my postings on this) you are entitled to your bankruptcy order. It is the fact of the COMi and not why you came that is important.
> 
> I hope this has cleared up some misunderstandings.
> 
> Steve



Hi Steve,

Can you provide case law on this, show a foreign court simply rubber stamping a decision of UK court, because I don't see anything in the EU legislation to suggest that they have to do as you suggest.

Jim.


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## Steve Thatcher

Jim2007 said:


> Hi Steve,
> 
> Can you provide case law on this, show a foreign court simply rubber stamping a decision of UK court, because I don't see anything in the EU legislation to suggest that they have to do as you suggest.
> 
> Jim.


 
Jim have a look at the link. This is the official Official Receiver's own hand book. See 41.66

http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov...nual/Ch37-48/chapter41/part5/part 5.htm#41.69

I will try and find the original Stephen Baister quote for you.

I am completely satisfied with my advice here.


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## Bronte

To look at it another way, what bank/institution has sought to undo an Irish person going solely to the UK to declare bankruptcy in Irish courts.  None so far.  There is a very high profile developer who has gone to the UK precisely for UK bankruptcy, it's mentioned from time to time in the papers, and with his level of debt if there were any doubt about his rights to go 'forum shopping' then his Irish creditors would presumably either objected to his bankruptcy proceedings in the UK or taken proceedings against him in the Irish courts.


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## billybound

Steve Thatcher said:


> In that situation if you hold it in your sole name, it vests in the OR. You would need to take steps to buy it off of him for the equity value if you wanted to keep it. If it is jointly owned only half of the equity would be available to the OR and an agreement can be struck to have this transferred to the spouse for a sum close to but probably slightly less than half the equity value.


 
If the irish property is jointly owned and mortgaged by a  married couple and the uk property is solely owned/mortgaged  by the wife only, can the irish property and mortgage be transferred to the name of the husband only so when husband declares bankruptcy in UK then the UK property cannot be touched. 
Is this correct?


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## RMCF

Re: original question.

Seems to work for Mr Quinn, so it should in theory work for the OP.


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## wicklamucker

I moved to Scotland almost three years ago. Due to my separation from my wife i became financially unstable and eventually entered into a Scottish Trust Deed (a far better option than bankruptcy - new slate after 3 years). I have been assured by the Deed holder (a very reputable firm) that any mortgage shortfall is included in the Deed and that all of my Irish creditors are bound by the Deed.
Ive just completed the first year of the deed and still receive letters from the mortgage company seeking monies. My former 'rogue' solicitor emailed me the other day actually stating that he (and the banks) were not bound by it as they are in a different jurisdiction! (He is a creditor). Regardless of what they say, as a UK resident my Trust Deed stands and they are bound to it.


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## Stressed1

Time:
"Not really. The sale of the house would not complete because of the shortfall. The bank would have to give permission for the sale to proceed. "

Technically correct, however you could inform the bank I'm selling my property for say 100k even thought I owe you 250k they may disagree to it but if they don't allow you to sell it for 100k and in a years time it's only worth 50k you are entitled to sue them for the balance, and the reverse applies should they force you to Sell it for 100k and  in a years time your property is worth 200k then You are entitled to sue them For 100k


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## stressedlady

Hi Steve.. your information is brilliant... 
I live in Ireland.. My husband who is a british citizen and myself, are looking to return to the UK as I am a recent Graduate with a degree and cannot get a job here... We also have 2 small children.. We are in negative equity.. Would you recommend, us to hand the keys in, come to a agreement for a loan for the shortfall, then when we are resident in the UK, declare bankrupcy....


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## cormirl

Time said:


> You need to box clever here.
> 
> The bank still needs a judgement in the high court even where there is a voluntary surrender. If the bank get wind of a bankruptcy in the offing they will simply sit on their hands. You need them to convert the mortgage into an unsecured debt. They won't want to lose out. If you tip them off they will wait until your UK bankruptcy is over and then hit you with the shortfall.



What do you mean they will wait till your uk bankruptcy is over
and then chase for the shortfall. I thought you can't be chased after going bankrupt ?
Also, I didn't realize that there has to be a high court process to voluntarily surrender the property.


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## callaghanj

You can surrender possession of the property without converting the shortfall to an unscured loan. In bky a secured creditor is entitled to value their security and claim in the bky without selling the asset. If an asset is sold at a loss to the secured creditor post bky the secured creditor cannot pursue the debt against you. In summary all debts are included and discharged in the bky bar a few exceptions eg fines and matrimonial bebts.


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## stressedlady

it is all very confusing...


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## stressedlady

How do you establish the UK as your COMI????


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## stressedlady

How do you establish the UK as your COMI


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## callaghanj

By moving  you and your family to the Uk you will establish your COMI and after 3 months you will be able  to petition for bankruptcy.


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## Bronte

Stressedlady, there is a bit more to it than Callaghan suggests which is the basics.  Have a look at all the threads by the poster called Steve Thatcher.


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## stressedlady

have been having a look, do you inform your mortgage company you intend to file for bankrupcy and then hand the keys in... or do you just (And I don't mean JUST as I know it is a big step) hand the key in and then the shortfall after the house is sold is the unsecured loan....?


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## Bronte

Make sure you do your own research but I would pack up and go, move in somewhere in the UK to establish your residency there, send the key back to the bank, inform them of your new address and that you intend to make a new life there. Notify Irish revenue and all your banks that you have left by registered post. In the Uk it will be important to have rent in your name, utility bill and open a bank account and do all your banking via that account and try for a job. Make sure you have enough money for 3 to 6 months. Be careful with letting agencies, some of them have scams going, one of them is I think 400 Euro for a credit check. It is pointless them doing a credit check in the UK on you as there is no record. When you apply for bankruptcy there is a procedure to follow. I think it's the bankruptcy trustee over there, you need to contract this office and they no doubt will tell you what to do, but it will be them that deals with the bank and your other creditors. 

It is important that you notify everybody of your change of address by registered post (keep the proof) document everything. Also de register to vote in Ireland and register in the UK. You can hire the services of an agency to help you with the legwork if you can afford it and are not capable of handling it yourself. Make sure you find a reputable agency. No doubt the Irish center in London/big cities have a lot of advice, and indeed maybe the one's in Ireland for those leaving.

Also if you do go please post back how you get on and each step of the way.  There are many people in your situation and your actual experience would be of great help.  It's not an easy step.  Don't be stressed anymore.


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## 44brendan

> have been having a look, do you inform your mortgage company you intend to file for bankrupcy and then hand the keys in... or do you just (And I don't mean JUST as I know it is a big step) hand the key in and then the shortfall after the house is sold is the unsecured loan....?


Please ensure that you make no decision without obtaining full information from a UK Insolvency expert. This is a serious step and should not be taken until you have a clear understanding of what is involved and whether UK bankruptcy is suitable to your circumstances.


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## stressedlady

Thanks a million Bronte... We decided last night that this is what we are going to do, if Politicians and Sean Quinn can do, what can't ordinary people as well..  and Feck people who say it is unpatriotic...

We have 2 small children who's future we have to secure, and what hope is there for them over here.. 

as soon as we save the money we need to keep us for a few months we are gone... will keep you posted of our developments as we get ready to move, started to sort through stuff this morning, going to do a car boot sale and start selling stuff, all towards the 'New Life Fund'...


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## stressedlady

Have just been talking to a solvency expert in the UK...


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## Jim2007

stressedlady said:


> Hi Steve.. your information is brilliant...
> I live in Ireland.. My husband who is a british citizen and myself, are looking to return to the UK as I am a recent Graduate with a degree and cannot get a job here... We also have 2 small children.. We are in negative equity.. Would you recommend, us to hand the keys in, come to a agreement for a loan for the shortfall, then when we are resident in the UK, declare bankrupcy....



I think the first point you need to understand is that you do not declare yourself bankrupt - you are judged to be bankrupt, there is a very big difference, in that the decision is not up to you!  and furthermore simply having negative equity does not mean that you are bankrupt....

I would also point out that not one of the UK advisors so far has been able to show case law where by the Irish or other EU courts for that matter, have accept the jurisdiction of a UK court over property located in their country... we have seen lots of opinions but not decisions.

And the end of the day you should seek proper legal advice before you act.


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## apple

*uk*

Hi Streeedlady

Sorry to here about your problems, we are in the same mess and had decided a couple of months ago to go to the uk and file for bankrupcy.

But yet we are still here, one day were going and the next day were staying. Like most people we were brought up to pay our way and pay our bills but having lost my job, my ex cant get a job and both our health taking a turn for the worse lately were still struggling to make a decision we are still undecided, the banks wont let us sell the house unless the mortgage is cleared in full and our other creditors want there money, every day its the same letters and calls. It should be an easy decision to make but for some reason the moral hazard keeps getting in the way.  

We sat done one night and said right were going to the uk and then we starting getting stuff ready for a car boot sale that it really hit home, how things have become so messed up.

I had a point but its gone out of my head sorry, cant think straight these days.

Do you have to go to the UK, as I have looked into it and also asked Steve who posts here often and you can go to the north as the process is still the same. To rent a place in the north isnt as expensive as london and you can still see family and friends. Our plan as of today is to look for a place in the north and try and scrape some money together and move there as soon as possible, but that could change tomorrow.

If you are claiming the social make sure that when you go to the UK that you transfer your money over with you as you can keep your dole for 12 weeks when your looking for a job in an other eu country once you notify the social. I think its 12 weeks but how ever long it is, it will help.

Keep the chin up and best of luck as Im sure you have been through absolute hell and back to come to this decision.


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## stressedlady

Hi Apple, 

Just had a great chat with a solicitor up the north who deals with this Issue and she has totally put my mind at ease... We are going to get the money together and just go.... the situation as it is is totally stressing us both out and impacting on our family life, which is not a good thing to be honest...


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## apple

*uk*

Hi stressed

thats good to hear did she tell you anything that might be of interest to the rest of us that are going that route. 

Glad to hear that she put your mind at rest.

keep us updated.


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## apple

Hi Stressed

I tried to send you a pm but unfortunaly i cant. would you have any idea of the cost of the process as I seen some sites asking crazy money to help go bankrupt.


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## stressedlady

she gave me a quote of starting at £300 + vat......... 

you have to reside in the UK for 6 months...


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## apple

hi stressed 

thanks for that, did you ask about moving to the north?. I was told that you have to be living there for 3mths and a day or 3 mths and 2 weeks to be sure of comi.

Can anyone here confirm the length of time you need to be living in UK/NI for COMI.


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## stressedlady

don't know about the north but it is definetly 6 months in England... NO definetly heading for the UK, have family over there.. If I learn anymore, will let you know.. keep the posts coming, find them great.. I was starting to feel Like I was the only one going through this stress


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## apple

thanks stressedlady. Thats good you have family in the uk. We're not alone alot of people seem to be taking this route. 

best of luck with it all


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## Bronte

stressedlady said:


> she gave me a quote of starting at £300 + vat.........


 
Starting at 300?  What does that include.  It's good you've talked to a professional.  How did you find her?  Also be careful, make sure you get a quote for the full price.  

My questions are not personal, but to make sure you are not being scammed and to help others who will follow your course of action.


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## Bronte

apple said:


> I had a point but its gone out of my head sorry, cant think straight these days.
> 
> .


 
Hi Apple, like a lot of people caught in this stressful situation it is only normal that you are unable to think straight. But for the sake of your family you need to. Don't worry about moral hazard, if you cannot pay your debts then you cannot, and what you need to focus on is getting out of the mess and getting on with your life. You are doing nobody any good living day to day with the worry of the creditors at you. Far better for you and your family to end this legally, and start afresh.

Courts are not interested in moral hazard, nor morals in general and neither are banks, legalities are what matters.


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## alphatucana

Hi Stressed!

Did the solicitor confirm that UK bankruptcy would clear the Irish debts? It sounds highly unlikely to me - the Irish bankruptcy rules are extremely punitive and unfair, and quite different from the UK system. Or are you thinking along different lines now?

I know I did some research on different bankruptcy systems in different countries some time ago. I put them in a free e-book which you can get from my website should you be interested. It is on the Debt Management page on the Money menu.  The website is the same as my user name in co uk though.

Certainly moving to a different country seems like a sensible move anyway, if you really thing things are out of control and there are no jobs available where you are. Not sure what jobs are like in the North though...


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## stressedlady

yes it would


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## Bronte

alphatucana said:


> Did the solicitor confirm that UK bankruptcy would clear the Irish debts? It sounds highly unlikely to me


 
Of course you can do this, many many high profile cases in the media and plenty more not high profile.   I'm sure that the likes of Deloitte, PwC and others have plenty new business in dealing with well heeled broke clients beating a path to their door on how to go about this.  I haven't looked up those company websites but I'm sure it's mentioned there somewhere under insolvency practioners and not just accountants, the top law firms in Dublin etc.


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## Jim2007

Bronte said:


> Of course you can do this, many many high profile cases in the media and plenty more not high profile.



Do not mistake the media or legal opinion for an actual judgement!  To the best of my knowledge we have yet to see a case where an Irish or other EU court for that matter, has accepted the jurisdiction of a UK court in respect of property - the EU directive makes a distinction here, so it could turn out not to be so clear cut as people assume.


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## drrkpd

*Isn't this the major problem??*



Time said:


> You need to box clever here.
> 
> The bank still needs a judgement in the high court even where there is a voluntary surrender. If the bank get wind of a bankruptcy in the offing they will simply sit on their hands. You need them to convert the mortgage into an unsecured debt. They won't want to lose out. If you tip them off they will wait until your UK bankruptcy is over and then hit you with the shortfall.



So the banks still have all the power because they have the secured debt!!
So if I have this right you have to stop paying the mortgage and offer voluntary surrender and then wait and hope the banks issue a judgement against you- and THEN go to UK- not simple is it??!!


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## callaghanj

You dont need a high court judgement to surrender possession of a property to a bank. Also the bank cannot pursue you for any shortfall post bky even if the property is sold after the bky order is made. The bank wont care if you intend to go to the Uk for the purpose of filing for bky. All they will be interested in will getting the proceeds of sale of the property.


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## Bronte

drrkpd said:


> So the banks still have all the power because they have the secured debt!!
> So if I have this right you have to stop paying the mortgage and offer voluntary surrender and then wait and hope the banks issue a judgement against you- and THEN go to UK- not simple is it??!!


 
Actually is is very simple.  You just have to go to the UK and let the UK insolvency system/administrator deal with the bank.  

But taking the step of going to the UK is a very difficult decision for a lot of people.


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## drrkpd

Thanks for clearing that up and yes it is a big decision for anyone but so is staying with huge debt!!!


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## Bronte

drrkpd said:


> Thanks for clearing that up and yes it is a big decision for anyone but so is staying with huge debt!!!


 

You haven't posted up your actual details drrkpd but there are signs of a new reality out there with the banks etc.  It may now be possible to come to an arrangement with them for voluntary surrender.  There is one person on AAM doing it with EBS and another case of BofI in the Irish Times today.


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## Steve Thatcher

alphatucana said:


> Hi Stressed!
> 
> Did the solicitor confirm that UK bankruptcy would clear the Irish debts? It sounds highly unlikely to me - the Irish bankruptcy rules are extremely punitive and unfair, and quite different from the UK system. Or are you thinking along different lines now?
> 
> I know I did some research on different bankruptcy systems in different countries some time ago. I put them in a free e-book which you can get from my website should you be interested. It is on the Debt Management page on the Money menu.  The website is the same as my user name in co uk though.
> 
> Certainly moving to a different country seems like a sensible move anyway, if you really thing things are out of control and there are no jobs available where you are. Not sure what jobs are like in the North though...


 
Hi if you really did some research on different bankruptcy systems and put them in an e-book how on earth did you now know or understand that Irish debts will be written off in the UK. not an e-book i would recommend to anyone.


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## Steve Thatcher

Jim2007 said:


> I think the first point you need to understand is that you do not declare yourself bankrupt - you are judged to be bankrupt, there is a very big difference, in that the decision is not up to you! and furthermore simply having negative equity does not mean that you are bankrupt....
> 
> I would also point out that not one of the UK advisors so far has been able to show case law where by the Irish or other EU courts for that matter, have accept the jurisdiction of a UK court over property located in their country... we have seen lots of opinions but not decisions.
> 
> And the end of the day you should seek proper legal advice before you act.


 
Jim you keep on banging on about no court has ruled on whether or not Irish courts have to accept the Official receiver's jurisdiction over property in theor country. The reason is it is set out in EU law and it would be a pointless action.
More to the point and as I keep asking you, can you cite a case where anyone has said the OR does not have a right to deal with foreign property. If not stop throwing up red herrings


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## Steve Thatcher

apple said:


> hi stressed
> 
> thanks for that, did you ask about moving to the north?. I was told that you have to be living there for 3mths and a day or 3 mths and 2 weeks to be sure of comi.
> 
> Can anyone here confirm the length of time you need to be living in UK/NI for COMI.


 

You have to be in the jurisdiction of the court for the greater part of six months. That could be as little as three months and a day. It is best practice to psuh that out as far as you can. I encourage those I taek through to leave it six months


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## Steve Thatcher

stressedlady said:


> she gave me a quote of starting at £300 + vat.........
> 
> you have to reside in the UK for 6 months...


 
Good luck if some one has quoted you £300 to go bankrupt. It is £700 per person just for the fee! You may just be getting what you pay for at £300. Always best to shop around and find out wxactly what you get for your money.


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## NEOInsolvenc

Hi, Your UK bankruptcy will sort out your Irish and world wide debts. If you are bankrupt you are bankrupt no matter which country you declare it in.


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## cavanmanny

*Bankruptcy in ireland from America*

I owned a house in ireland in 2008 but moved to the U.S. In hopes a better life. Unfortunately I could not afford to keep my house and it was repossessed a few years ago. I had asked could I make minimum payment until we could sell it or if could do interest only but the bank refused. My parents and former work place has been contacted by debt collectors and this really bothers me. I never intend to live in ireland again and have a wife and family in USA and good credit. So my question is really can debt collectors come after me in America and can I still visit ireland if I need to. I was hoping to go bankrupt in ireland and resolve it that way but I'm worried it would effect my standing over here. Thank for any help.


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## Time

> So my question is really can debt collectors come after me in America


Highly unlikely. Make sure that no one tells them where you are. 


> can I still visit ireland if I need to.


Of course you can. It is a civil matter nothing to do with the Gardaí.


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## cavanmanny

Thank you. I was worried they could garnish my pay or come after my wife's house.


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