# Qs re. building by direct labour.



## Mr Ed (20 Oct 2007)

1. First - are we mad to consider it? (have a toddler and a baby)
2. We don't really have any contacts....
3. We don't know anything about building so wouldn't know what to be looking out for - are there any books or websites that could help? (obviously we would have an engineer, but I like to be on top of things myself too if at all possible)
4. Any other advice?

Thanks a mil, Mr Ed


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## sydthebeat (20 Oct 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

yes, Mr Ed....

if you have no construction background, then you would probably be mad...

building by direct labour means that you are taking on th erole of the building contractor... any mistakes will be on your head..

i often use the analogy of going into a car salesroom.... you would never say to the salesman, look just give me the parts and ill build it myself, would you????

there a distinct lack of respect for construction in this country.... especially with the current atmosphere of energy efficiency...

you should try to be on top of things yourself as the client, but do not expect to know how every bolt is supposed to be connected, or every detail is formed..... hire a good architect to 'supervise' the work if thats the route you want to go down......


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## Mr Ed (20 Oct 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

Thanks Syd, all feedback appreciated. Obviously it's the thought of saving a bit of dosh going direct that's tempting....


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## sydthebeat (20 Oct 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

i appreciate that the bottom line is most attractive, but you also have to remember that its the contractors job to ensure that the build runs somothly, the construction is correct and to the best workmanship, and that all regulations and requirements are met.....

percieved savings can quickly turn into over costs due to bador wrong workmanship.. and if you cannot recognise problems before they happen, then the costs to repair them comes from your pocket..... whereas if you hire a contractor it comes from his pocket....

if you really want to go down the 'direct labour' route, i would highly advise to get full working drawings for your dwelling done by your architect... remember that planning drawings are not construction drawings...... also get a full detailed specification, and if possible a full bill of quantites.... also hire an architect / engineer in a 'supervisory' capacity, not just the 'periodic inspections to draw down mortgages'...

i can only say that from my experience direct labour builds are not to a standard of workmanship than those of contractors.. generally because the client in most cases doesnt recognise poor workmanship....


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## sse (20 Oct 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

As a general rule, I would suggest that the "savings" you think are there going down the direct labour route would evaporate unless you have a) a well-stocked contact book b) a very deep knowledge of what you're getting yourself into c) limitless time for your build.

As a suggestion, why not aim for a "shell" build? This is a watertight shell, with services etc. ready for you to get second fix done. This allows you to do finishes etc. whilst the major dependencies are managed by your main contractor.

When all is said and done building a house is no different than any other project, and that requires a skilled and experienced PM. If you have no experience in that field, then you will fail and it will cost you more in the end.

SSE


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## z109 (20 Oct 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

I fail to see what the fuss is about. There are different aspects to direct labour. As sse suggests, you can get the groundworks done, get a shell built, then get a roofer to do the roof, plasterers to do the plastering, electrician and plumber, carpenter. etc. etc. (Not necessarily in that order!). There are many websites that go through the process (lots of good ones in the UK on "self-build").  I would stick to clump jobs and avoid having to specifically hire some trades (e.g. you don't want to be directly hiring brickies to do the footings, and then to do the walls and trying to co-ordinate them with the guy pouring the foundations).

What you do need to do is to bone up on what order things need to be done in, what time each job should take, how to order materials (although a good relationship with a local builder's provider is essential), how to make sure they get on site when there are people to unload them (if they need to be unloaded by hand!), what things need to be ordered very early (phone and electric in particular), what you need to provide for each job (e.g. the scaffolding for the internal/external plastering) etc. 

You will probably spend months planning for the build, only to be let down by various tradesmen at key moments, so keep in mind that your carefully worked out plan will fall to pieces as soon as it engages the enemy; however, if you have done your homework, you will know the impact of your roofer having fallen off the roof of his previous job, and a replacement not being available for two months!

Engage an engineer to not only do the drawings, but to do a supervision of each stage. It may be worth engaging someone (a retired builder?) to come and cast his beady eye over your plans and to keep an eye on how things are going. 

You can expect to spend all your time on site - if you are not there, work will sometimes not happen!


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## Sue Ellen (21 Oct 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

Hi Mr. Ed,

There are some previous threads on self-build if you run the search option in this forum or use this.

You could also have a look at www.iaosb.com or [broken link removed]


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## Mr Ed (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

Hi,

Just to update you (as a similar question was posed yesterday). We are now considering building by direct labour but getting a company to project manage it for us.

We were told we'd save approx 15% on the build (of 250Kish) so that's about 37K.

Their fee is 10K and we were told we'd have to pay 3K for insurance if we go down that route, so overall saving of 24K. However I reckon we could save even more than that again with a bit of haggling...

Thanks for all the replies,

Mr Ed


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## mickeyg (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

MrEd, will the company you are getting to project manage your build also be repsonsible for sourcing the various trades or are you doing that??


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## Mr Ed (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

Yes. Although knowing me I'll do a bit of it myself


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## yop (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

First off, you dont need a degree in Construction to do a self build, you don't need limitless time and you don't need limitless contacts.

From my own selfbuild I don't have a degree or anything in construction, I never was involved in building before this, I just had a willingness to learn and get stuck in. 
Time wise, unless you are intending to do the jobs yourself you could be talking average about 3-4 hours a day to get organised on the build and follow tradesmen. this will vary up and down depending on the stages.

As regards contacts, I had 1, the blocklayer, the rest I sourced and got references of their work.

As for the builder and "the construction is correct and to the best workmanship, and that all regulations and requirements are met....." your having a laugh, have ye actually been into many houses lately, just read threads on here and other boards to see how good the workmanship is.  Not getting at your statement, but go to any new house and I guarantee you will loads and load of issues with the build.

Mr Ed, I would be causious about the PM crowd, if you are going to have to source the trademen, you will also need an engineer to sign off the drawdowns and the planning, so what exactly is the PM company doing?? It seems a lot for what exactly?
I dont want to sound condesending but make sure they are not ripping you off.


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## Mr Ed (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

Yop I see what you're saying. Time is a huge issue to us as we both work full time and have 2 children under 2 and that is why we are considering a PM. I had no intention of paying the 10K - but it was just worst case scenario figures. For us I think it's definitely a viable option.


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## yop (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

Mr Ed, time thn really is not something you have, but in saying that I have a friend who was in a very similar situation as yourself, family wise, who undertook a self build, took him 18 months to complete.

Also the distance from your current home/work to the new build is important, if you have to travel an hour to get to the build then an hour  home, then a self build will again be difficult.

IF the PM company will undertake the getting of quotes, supervision and planning of the trades, organising of material for the trades, organising of services etc then your 10k is well worth it.

For your self build as I said you will need a least 1 hour per day to organise the trades or check the work, this as I said could be 3 or 4 hours some days, but its nearer the 1 hour.
You need be on the end of the phone to receive calls, you really need to be able to be at your site within 30-40 minutes, in case, again rare, you are needed to over see a work, your advice is needed, you need to sign for a delivery.
You need to be able to organise trades, ring them and meet them to get quotes, see their work.
You need to be able to go to trade suppliers to organise materials.
You need to be able to willing to help out if needed. It does happen, rare again.

The question also you need to ask yourself, do you have the interest in the build, the willingness for the hassle and the couple of hours per day to spare, if you dont then defo get a PM or a builder.


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## Mr Ed (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

The build is only 6 miles from we currently live. Before I had children I would definitely have done it by myself but it's just not feasible now. I hope to get a few bob off the 10K, and do a small bit of pricing myself, so hopefully will get the best deal possible (oh and get plenty of info here!). It's good to know it can be done anyway. 

One thing that bothers me is that we're in a small town where everyone knows everyone else, and the engineer knows all the builders etc. and they're all in A BIG CONSPIRACY TO RIP ME OFF!! Well, maybe not, but I'm sure they'll be in touch with each other about local builds....


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## yop (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

uum, hard to call that 1 lad, all you can do is price around, you are not limited to inside your own town, plenty of trades willing to travel.


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## sydthebeat (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

There seems to be a confusion as to a definition of a self build in this thread.

If you hire a PM service or Architect or Engineer to project manage a build, then its not a self build \  direct labour job........
A building contractor is basically a project manager.... all your doing is replacing him with another professional.
I would always recommend hiring an architect as a project manager.

A direct labour build is one where the client takes on the responsibilities of the project manager. Its in this case where i would not recommend anyone without indepth construction knowledge to take the job on. if your hiring a project manager then your not self building.


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## yop (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*



sydthebeat said:


> There seems to be a confusion as to a definition of a self build in this thread.
> 
> If you hire a PM service or Architect or Engineer to project manage a build, then its not a self build \  direct labour job........
> A building contractor is basically a project manager.... all your doing is replacing him with another professional.
> ...




Out of interest are you an engineer or builder?

I know you would not recommend it but there are 100's of direct labour builds going on where the person has little indept construction knowledge.


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## sse (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

Eh?

Surely the definition of "self-build" is where you _don't _buy a prebuilt or secondhand house - irrespective of how it's actually delivered?

Just FYI - the engineer who signed off our build stages wouldn't even take the job on if it was direct labour. Not sure if that's common but I can see his point.

Yes the contractor is the PM but it's HIS project until it's delivered to the required standard. If you have your own PM the financial risk is all yours.

Don't be afraid of asking tradespeople for recommendations either. We have got several good workmen that way.

SSE


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## sydthebeat (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*



yop said:


> 1. Out of interest are you an engineer or builder?
> 
> 2. I know you would not recommend it but there are 100's of direct labour builds going on where the person has little indept construction knowledge.



1. Im an Architectural Technician

2. I know, thats why im so against direct labour,.. i see errors and mistakes every day because the client doesnt know a thing about construction and they end up having to pay out of their own pocket to remedy them. 

There seems to be a disrespect for house building in ireland. If some one can project manage to necessary standards fine, but in my experience they are nearly always a disaster. You wouldnt walk into a car showroom and tell the salesman to send you out the parts, you will put it torgether yourself and save 15% in the process.... why do people think they can do it for houses??

Building standards are increasing all the time, so fast actually that some professionals out there whose job it is to certify them dont actually know what the proper requirements are. People are loosing money left right and centre on direct labour jobs.... then they complain they they didnt get the end product they wanted.
point of fact.... anyone installing geothermal with underfloor heating into a direct labour standard 310 cavity wall with passive vents are absolutely mad...... ive seen this done so often, then they complain that the system doesnt heat the dwelling adequately, and that it takes ages to heat etc (youve heard it all before), when in fact its the standard and choice of construction thats the main problem.....
If someone planning on manageing their own build and they dont know what a DPC or 'soap bar' is they shouldnt be doing it....
rant over.....


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## yop (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*



sydthebeat said:


> 1. Im an Architectural Technician
> 
> 2. I know, thats why im so against direct labour,.. i see errors and mistakes every day because the client doesnt know a thing about construction and they end up having to pay out of their own pocket to remedy them.
> 
> ...



And thats why they have an engineer who will check each stage of the build and sign the stage off before the next drawdown is due.

Its your opinion which is fair enough, my opinion and experience of maybe 20 odd selfbuild/direct labour houses is that the standard of work is much higher and the finish whether it be insulation levels, standard of tiling, painting, carpentary are well above that of those which are build by builders, the difference is the self builder is in charge of something they do care about, while builders are only interested in getting the job done as quickly as possible, getting their money and moving on.

Out of pure interest, most of the work you do, is it for builders or people who mange their own build, because from my view is that if the number of people who undertake the PM of the job themselves then there is less chance of them requiring the service of professions like yours?? 

Again I am not having a go at your opionions or anything, I know we can agree to disagree but I think you maybe OTT on some points.


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## Meathman99 (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*



yop said:


> that the standard of work is much higher and the finish whether it be insulation levels, standard of tiling, painting, carpentary are well above that of those which are build by builders, the difference is the self builder is in charge of something they do care about, while builders are only interested in getting the job done as quickly as possible, getting their money and moving on.



The builder prices and builds according to the drawing and specification provided by the client.  He enters a contract to do a certain parcel of work to  an acceptable level.  If the builder increases the insulation level or provides a skimmed finish instead of a "taped and jointed" finish they will be deviating from the spec.


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## SectionA-A (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

I was asked to comment on this thread.

I agree with The *Architectural Technician* (Syd the beat) in one regard.
Some clients do not spot the problems coming.  
------------------------------------------------
A simple example I've seen lately: if the clients are not managing their trades correctly, the 2nd Fix Carpentry Starts before the 2nd Fix Plumbing.  
            "So what" some people say, "the house is plastered, painted, wired and looking good, we just want to get in". However while the house is still drying out the heads are swelling on the engineered doors and the lovely new timber floors are lifting.  This is simple to see when I put it like this, believe me, some people do not listen and have no common sense.
----------------------------------------------
However, on the other hand,
I do agree with the *self builder (yop) *in another regard.

While the project is not managed by a builder, and in fact this person is not in the construction industry, so long as common sense in used, and your not afraid to take advice from your engineer (who you will have to employ regardless) organising the build yourself can be rewarding and cost effective.
-----------------------------------------------


I would say that getting the engineer on board from the planning stage is the key.  Build up a good working relation ship with him/her and dont be afraid to ask silly questions, often times are that these are not silly questions at all.


So in summary, the self build will be supervised by your engineer anyway, and while it is the cheaper build option, just use common sence and dont be afraid to take advice.  Your engineer will usually be helpful enough to start you off with a few good contacts and then each trade can usually identify good trades that have worked with them on other jobs.

Section A-A


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## sydthebeat (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*



Meathman99 said:


> *The builder prices and builds according to the drawing and specification provided by the client*.  He enters a contract to do a certain parcel of work to  an acceptable level.  If the builder increases the insulation level or provides a skimmed finish instead of a "taped and jointed" finish they will be deviating from the spec.



more often than not these plans and specifications are inadequate... planning drawings are used in many cases as construction drawings. 




sectionA-A said:


> *the self build will be supervised by your engineer anyway*, and while it is the cheaper build option, just use common sence and dont be afraid to take advice. Your engineer will usually be helpful enough to start you off with a few good contacts and then each trade can usually identify good trades that have worked with them on other jobs.



the terms and conditions of this arrangement need to be clearly agreed beforehand... as responsibility always becomes an issue when mistakes arise......
the vast majority of one-off builds are not 'supervised'... they are simply 'inspected' from the pint of view of building regulations and planning permissions. This engagement does not take best practise into account, nor does it take responsibility for errors........


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## yop (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*



SectionA-A said:


> I would say that getting the engineer on board from the planning stage is the key.  Build up a good working relation ship with him/her and dont be afraid to ask silly questions, often times are that these are not silly questions at all.
> 
> Your engineer will usually be helpful enough to start you off with a few good contacts and then each trade can usually identify good trades that have worked with them on other jobs.




2 good points, the engineer definately has to have a the patience to put up with daft questions and give advice, that is also true about the contacts part of it though.

Meathman, sorry what I meant to say was that if you compare a house finish of a self builder involved in the whole process with that which a builder did on an estate or even a 1 off, then the finish you will find will be higher and of better standard.
I should not really have mentioned material in that statement, I mean as regards pure workmanship


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## yop (15 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*



sydthebeat said:


> the vast majority of one-off builds are not 'supervised'... they are simply 'inspected' from the pint of view of building regulations and planning permissions. This engagement does not take best practise into account, nor does it take responsibility for errors........



I see where you are coming from as regards this, it does come down to the engineer and what is specified, that is a point I took for granted (fatal mistake, take nothing for granted )


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## Demps (21 Nov 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

Mr Ed.

Can You give some details on the company thats going to do the Project Management for You - or PM me if You dont want to post it

Thanks


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## Pookie (28 Dec 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*

Hello Mr Ed
Yes you are mad. We were in a similar situation last spring, and didnt know what to do. I was 6 months pregnant with first child. Both myself and husband have stressful jobs. 
At first we were attracted by all the stories of being able to save tonnes of money going direct labour. However after discussing with our architect we decided it is a false economy - especially if you have no experience in building.
After looking for a few quotes we went with a self build construction management firm. Signed the contract a few days before jnr was born, and it was all systems go, and we could relax and enjoy the new addition.
It was probably the best decision we ever made - although we are paying for the privelige. Our Project Manager is great, we are thinking of adopting him after we finish the build. I would have no hesiation in recommending them.


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## Quasiff (29 Dec 2007)

*Re: Qs re. building by direct labour - please help!*



Pookie said:


> Hello Mr Ed
> After looking for a few quotes we went with a self build construction management firm. Signed the contract a few days before jnr was born, and it was all systems go, and we could relax and enjoy the new addition.
> It was probably the best decision we ever made - although we are paying for the privelige. Our Project Manager is great, we are thinking of adopting him after we finish the build. I would have no hesiation in recommending them.


 
Can you say who this company is? PM is fine if you don't want to post here.

Did you select a qualified architect, or a draftsperson to do the house design? If an architect, why not use him/her to do it?

I'm looking to start building very soon, so any first hand experiences are interesting.


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## Demps (4 Feb 2008)

Pookie/Mr Ed

I am interested in looking into the Project Management route (especially if the company comes with recommendations) - Can You PM me with details of who is involved with Yere projects

Thanks


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## Duffman (4 Feb 2008)

Just thought I should add my two cents worth into the discussion. I built by direct labour without any previous experience. Went well, very stressful but well worth it in my opinion. The main difference is I didn't have to pay an intermediary builder a fee to do what I did myself. As long as you only employ reputable builders with recommendations I can't see a major problem. I could ensure that everything that went into the house such as insulation etc was of the highest spec as I bought it all myself.
To compare, someone else I know also went direct but used a 'project manager' at a fee of €25,000. Result:
My build - 12 months to completion, living in the house 1 year now & no problems have surfaced - €25000 saved.
Their build - 18 months to construct
i found that the most time-consuming part was the end stages of fitting out the house & this is something that you would usually be heavily involved in anyway whether you went self-build or through a builder.


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## mickeyg (4 Feb 2008)

Duffman, how much did your build work out at per sq ft. and where are you located?

Thanks


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## eire1977 (4 Feb 2008)

Pookie/Mr Ed,
Can you PM me the details for those Project Management companies.  At the moment I'm 50/50 but don't mind spending a few extra bob if we get exactly what we want WITHOUT the hair loss!!!!


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## Duffman (5 Feb 2008)

mickeyg said:


> Duffman, how much did your build work out at per sq ft. and where are you located?
> 
> Thanks


 
Well there are many different versions of 'per sq ft' - I think the usual one is only to a 'builders finish' which doesn't include fitting out the house.  I could only give you the final cost including everything including kitchen, decorating, attic insulation (expensive sheeps wool), wood pellet boiler (more expensive than oil) & even some furniture.  Basically a house ready to live in.  The overall cost came to €109 per sq ft and I'm in Co. Waterford.  One more thing - I finished last March (07) when there was still a housing boom & some builders were hard to come by - which probably pushed up prices as well.  You might find them easier to come by at the moment & mayber cheaper as well.


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## Mr Ed (5 Feb 2008)

Hi everyone,

Just to update those of you who asked..... As it stands I won't be recommending my 'Architectural Technologist/Project Manager/Engineer' (what the hell is an architectural technologist anyway)...

We are STILL waiting for him to complete the house plans!! We're supposed to get them tomorrow, after weeks of him putting us off.

The percolation test was done on the site on Saturday and initial results indicate a very high water table and that we might need a biocycle unit??? I guess it'll end up costing way more than a normal septic tank...

I'm already almost wishing we hadn't bothered. This website is fantastic for information, but the more reading I do, the more confused and/or put-off I am about getting ourselves into this!

:-(


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## *rose (6 Feb 2008)

Hi Mr Ed

didn't read all the posts above but just wanted to let you know our experience of building by direct labour.

we knocked our ditch st patricks day last year. we started our roof last monday.

we have had a lot of problems along the way ... def be prepared for a LOT of phoning people - we didn't keep on top of this enough.

this resulted in 3 of our upstairs gables coming down during bad weather before christmas ... and took almost 2 months to catch up on where we had been.

just our experience ... you definately save money going by direct labour and have so much freedom as regards altering internal plans etc, but for us has been a MAJOR headache!!!


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## gally74 (24 Apr 2008)

well,

firslty you need some experience in project management,

were building direct for 66 euro a sq foot and its a lot easier than i thought!


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## Silvergirl (24 Apr 2008)

I didn't know what a soap bar was or the price of a 'bin of muck' was when I started but I do now and I wasn't long learning!

We are half way through our build 2800 sq ft house, had a problem with original block layer and had to get a new one which cost us a 1 week delay - the 2nd tradesman was excellent.

You are builing at a great time. There are loads of trades available at relatively short notice, if your roofer has an accident as Syd mentioned (heaven forbid) he will most likely recommend another. A builder / architect will encounter the same difficulty.  We've had recommendations for one trade from the other tradesmens / work colleagues etc and checked into their work and got prices and it's worked out for the most part really well, 

It does take time, you need to order materials etc, but not so much that it's impossible. Far from it, you'd be surprised  what you get done in a half hour with the golden pages!

We have a one year old and work full time, although my husbands hours are flexible so he does get to catch up with his day job in the evening and call to the site during the day to meet the tradesmen and give them instructions when needed.

Example: our neighbour is using a builder, they started building same time as us, we are slightly ahead of them. His stone mason has now gone awol and ours is finished. It's the luck of the draw.

10K is a lot of money, you are a long time paying it off. 

If you have it to spare then go the supervised route. Your builder will be asking you the same questions that the tradesmen would ask you directly, at the end of the day it's your house, and only you can make decisions. Trades will sometimes make recommendations for the best and sometimes to try to take the easy route out, but that's what AAM is for - to verify things!!

Best of luck with it, it's work but so rewarding when you see it flying up out of the ground.

S


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## Silvergirl (25 Apr 2008)

Sorry forgot to add, we started ours beg Nov 07, and it's finished outside now, house and garage, plastering inside half way complete (upstairs & 2nd floor done), first fixes on plumbing and electrical complete. Hope to be in for Aug, may be a little ambitious but we'll get there. We've entered the slowest phase I believe.
Our engineer is casting an eye over it and we call him the odd time to bounce things off him such as insulation levels, but to be honest AAM has been great too.
If you are in Cork and need any trades contacts PM me.


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## heyjude (29 Apr 2008)

hi silvergirl, i am also in the early planning stage of building a 2800 square ft house in the cork area and I was just wondering what kind of budget have you set for this build. I am financing this on my own so just wondering what i'm letting myself into!


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