# Tenants leaving well before 56-day legal notice period. Can I keep their deposit?



## Arnie Hammer (26 Sep 2020)

I have an apartment in Dublin that I held on to after I got married. I've had a couple in place as tenants since June 2017. They've paid the rent on time and have been good tenants.

They pay at the end of the month, but on the 14th of this month (September) I got a bolt from the blue. They gave me notice that they would be quitting on the 30th of the month. They've signed a lease on a new place and are already half moved out. They've told me they won't pay any rent for October and want their deposit back in full.

Turning the property round is difficult for me at the moment for few reasons, including work and a new-born baby. From what I can tell properties are sitting much longer on Daft than normal due to Covid.

Tenants have given me 16 days notice, but if I read the RTB website correctly they are actually obliged to give me 56 days' notice as their tenancy has lasted between two and four years. This would mean that they can leave no earlier than November 11 unless I agree otherwise.

I've inspected it a few times and I don't anticipate any damage needing expenditure. What I want to know if if I can keep their month's deposit in full due to them leaving inside the legal notice period?


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## Ravima (26 Sep 2020)

Forget about the rules. If tenant is leaving voluntarily, let them go. Get an agent to let from now on.


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## Arnie Hammer (26 Sep 2020)

Thanks. I am letting them go, I can't stop them leaving.

I want to know if (legally) I can keep their deposit.

I will likely be out of pocket as finding new tenants will take a while. If I'd had the 56 days I would have been able to line someone up to move in soon after they left.


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## Thirsty (26 Sep 2020)

From rtb website

"If a tenant provides insufficient notice of their termination of the tenancy, or they terminate a fixed term tenancy before the end of the agreed term."

Having said that I'm with Ravmina here; your former tenant can still attempt to recover their deposit via a complaint to the RTB. They may not ultimately suceed, but do you really need that hassle?


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## Pmc365 (27 Sep 2020)

I personally would overlook their lack of adequate notice and refund them their deposit based upon the fact they were hitherto good tenants who kept the property in a good state of repair. If you withhold their deposit they may well lodge a claim to the RTB.


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## Arnie Hammer (27 Sep 2020)

Pmc365 said:


> I personally would overlook their lack of adequate notice and refund them their deposit based upon the fact they were hitherto good tenants who kept the property in a good state of repair. If you withhold their deposit they may well lodge a claim to the RTB.



But if the RTB website says I can withhold deposit for inadequate notice then what grounds would they have to go to the RTB?

All I can withhold is the deposit which is 31 days rent. They've given me 14 days notice and 56-14=42. Shouldn't they be liable for the extra 11 days as well?


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## AndroidMan (27 Sep 2020)

Tell them that they have given inadequate notice and you are within your rights to withold the deposit but say you are willing to meet them half way. Less hassle for all I think.


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## Páid (27 Sep 2020)

You need to thoroughly inspect the property before you decide on the deposit. 

They owe you rent because they are not giving adequate notice. You also need to take meter readings for electricity and gas, etc.


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## AAAContributor (27 Sep 2020)

OP - you can enforce the terms and conditions and withhold the deposit for inadequate notice. 

The tenants should have factored this in to their move. In the current environment, they may be availing of a better deal elsewhere. Perhaps their finances have become more precarious and they need to make alternative arrangements? Are they paying a high proportion of their income in rent on your property do you know?

It is definitely annoying - I get that. If your tenants were letting from a REIT, I presume the REIT would be having none of it (though maybe I am doing the professional landlord sector down here and they would be beneficent if a tenant needs to leave at short notice and just accept it as a cost of doing business!). 

However, consider is it worth the time and hassle of bad blood between you and your soon to be ex-tenants and a possible drawn out process with the RTB. From the sounds of things, you have enough on your plate.

Are your margins so tight on the property that this event is going to put the squeeze on you? Will the deposit be included as taxable income and so the tax man may get a bite? (Or may not if there is not much to be taxed when all the calculations are done at tax time).

You got 3+ years of zero hassle, reasonable income, no property damage I am presuming, and importantly, no void periods. As a residential property landlord, you'd generally conservatively factor in 11 months of rental receipts in a year - allowing for one month void. Even if it takes you a month, or a month and a half to turn the property around, on a 3-yr view you are coming out ahead in my book. 

The statement about their move being a bolt out of the blue should not be a surprise. You are in the property letting business - people coming and going are par for the course. 

If your personal circumstances impinge on your ability to manage your property business, Ravima's suggestion to get an agent is a good one.


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## joe sod (27 Sep 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> Tenants have given me 16 days notice, but if I read the RTB website correctly they are actually obliged to give me 56 days' notice as their tenancy has lasted between two and four years. This would mean that they can leave no earlier than November 11 unless I agree otherwise.


 
Conventional wisdom is that you need to give a months notice when quitting a rental, they have given you half a month in notice period. Therefore the fairest thing is that you return half the deposit and keep the other half. Presumably the deposit is a months rent upfront that they paid, I think they would accept that as fair.


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## KOW (27 Sep 2020)

Landlord myself I,d go with joe sod for what its worth.


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## PebbleBeach2020 (27 Sep 2020)

Let them leave. Tell them you will inspect the apartment. Then a day later after they are gone and locks changed etc tell them Eatab advised you are entitled to keep deposit as they haven't honoured terms of lease. 

This works both ways. Both tenants and landlords are protected. Use it.


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## Jim2007 (27 Sep 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> But if the RTB website says I can withhold deposit for inadequate notice then what grounds would they have to go to the RTB?
> 
> All I can withhold is the deposit which is 31 days rent. They've given me 14 days notice and 56-14=42. Shouldn't they be liable for the extra 11 days as well?



But you have already accepted their shorter notice without objection.... so too late to change your mind now.


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## Arnie Hammer (27 Sep 2020)

Thanks for all the advice. I'm inclined to compromise and withhold half of their month's deposit. Even if 56 days is the legal requirement to give notice I think something like a month is reasonable, and the two weeks they've given me isn't.

If I find a tenant within less than two weeks (unlikely) I will refund them the difference.



Thirsty said:


> Having said that I'm with Ravmina here; your former tenant can still attempt to recover their deposit via a complaint to the RTB. They may not ultimately suceed, but do you really need that hassle?



A few people have mentioned this but I don't see what grounds they would have to go to the RTB. It seems clear that they didn't respect the notice period.




AAAContributor said:


> OP - you can enforce the terms and conditions and withhold the deposit for inadequate notice.
> 
> The tenants should have factored this in to their move. In the current environment, they may be availing of a better deal elsewhere.



Yes I think this is it as they are in steady employment. Something closer to work has come up (maybe cheaper too) and they've jumped at it.



AAAContributor said:


> However, consider is it worth the time and hassle of bad blood between you and your soon to be ex-tenants and a possible drawn out process with the RTB. From the sounds of things, you have enough on your plate.



I am not really worried about bad blood. It's a business relationship and I just want what is legally mine. I take your point that RTB is a hassle but I don't see that I have too much to lose.



AAAContributor said:


> Are your margins so tight on the property that this event is going to put the squeeze on you?.......You got 3+ years of zero hassle, reasonable income, no property damage I am presuming, and importantly, no void periods. As a residential property landlord, you'd generally conservatively factor in 11 months of rental receipts in a year - allowing for one month void. Even if it takes you a month, or a month and a half to turn the property around, on a 3-yr view you are coming out ahead in my book.



The whole set-up makes sense financially for us at the moment (I'll spare the details) and there's no cash flow issue. I had just assumed that I would get more than 14 days notice to find new tenants, and when I looked up the legislation it seems that it is actually 56.




Jim2007 said:


> But you have already accepted their shorter notice without objection.... so too late to change your mind now.



I've actually told them my understanding is that they need to give 56 days notice. But they are leaving anyway. So I don't think I've "accepted". I can't really refuse if they insist on giving me the keys back and stop paying rent.



AndroidMan said:


> Tell them that they have given inadequate notice and you are within your rights to withold the deposit but say you are willing to meet them half way. Less hassle for all I think.



Thanks. I will most likely take this approach.


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## imalwayshappy (28 Sep 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> I have an apartment in Dublin that I held on to after I got married. I've had a couple in place as tenants since June 2017. They've paid the rent on time and have been good tenants.
> 
> They pay at the end of the month, but on the 14th of this month (September) I got a bolt from the blue. They gave me notice that they would be quitting on the 30th of the month. They've signed a lease on a new place and are already half moved out. They've told me they won't pay any rent for October and want their deposit back in full.
> 
> ...




Keep it. I am tired of hearing these stories and have experienced this type of situation myself. I explain at the outset of every tenancy that I am fair however I have to pay the mortgage of the property. If the tenant moves out before the agreed end date in the rental agreement I make it clear that I will keep the deposit and I get confirmation from them that they acknowledge this fact. 

I don't disagree with any of the above posts in regards to the hassle of the RTB but people need to be held accountable for breaking leases and fear of the RTB should not be a deciding factor when someone breaks the rules. If landlords don't keep deposits are we just further encouraging this type of behavior, breaking leases etc.


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## LS400 (28 Sep 2020)

imalwayshappy said:


> If the tenant moves out before the agreed end date in the rental agreement I make it clear that I will keep the deposit and I get confirmation from them that they acknowledge this fact.




What planet are you living on, that signed paperwork is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Model tenants for the last few years, and the OP wants to act the maggot with them. Ridiculous. Be thankful you dont have to chase arrears, do a makeover on the property, have to have any dealings whatsoever with the Rtb etc.

This nonsense equates to two weeks rent.

Try this with approach with a few of the more experienced undesirable tenants, and you will rue the day you tried to be smart with the few good ones out there.


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## Arnie Hammer (28 Sep 2020)

imalwayshappy said:


> If the tenant moves out before the agreed end date in the rental agreement I make it clear that I will keep the deposit and I get confirmation from them that they acknowledge this fact.



Thanks. I looked at the lease again and it says that rules around notice period are as per the law in force. I don't think you can vary this with the specific lease really.



LS400 said:


> Model tenants for the last few years, and the OP wants to act the maggot with them.



I chose tenants carefully and and did lots of repairs and other asks from them. To me the courtesy should run both ways. 

For the next set of tenants I will make it clear at the outset that I expect notice in line with the legal minimum.


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## LS400 (28 Sep 2020)

I dont think you fully understand how completely dysfunctional the rental market is.

You can sign up the sweetest individuals you have ever come across.. if they want to make your life hell, they have every tool available to them to do this, and then, having done so, move on to the next unsuspecting victim. 

Seriously, pick you battles.


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## imalwayshappy (28 Sep 2020)

LS400 said:


> What planet are you living on, that signed paperwork is about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
> 
> Model tenants for the last few years, and the OP wants to act the maggot with them. Ridiculous. Be thankful you don't have to chase arrears, do a makeover on the property, have to have any dealings whatsoever with the Rtb etc.
> 
> ...




Disagree. What is the OP meant to do with these "model tenants". Thank them refusley for not putting holes in the walls? not living in their own filth? Handing back a rental property the way they received it? Honoring a commitment? People need to take responsibility. Period.

I do agree that the market is dysfunctional but the fact that we are normalizing that its's ok to break a lease whenever you want and you should be thankful as a landlord that your property was returned to you in the condition you gave it is wrong.


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## Páid (28 Sep 2020)

The tenants should have moved out and the property inspected thoroughly before you even contemplate returning the deposit. They will also owe money for utilities so take meter readings.






						Security deposits and when they can be retained | Residential Tenancies Board
					

RTB operates Ireland's National Tenancy Register and resolving disputes between Landlords, tenants and third parties. Governed by residential Tenancies Act 2004. View more information on landlords and tenancies.




					www.rtb.ie
				




If the shoe was on the other foot and it was the the landlord not giving the correct notice there would be a public outcry.


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## Sarenco (28 Sep 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> I want to know if (legally) I can keep their deposit.


Yes.

You can legally retain monies from the security deposit to cover rent that should have been paid to you up to the end of the notice period that should have been given by your tenants.

Whether or not you _should_ do so is a separate question.  

Many landlords would simply return the security deposit in full in these circumstances and would focus their energy on re-letting the property as soon as possible, using a letting agent where appropriate.


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## Arnie Hammer (28 Sep 2020)

LS400 said:


> You can sign up the sweetest individuals you have ever come across.. if they want to make your life hell, they have every tool available to them to do this, and then, having done so, move on to the next unsuspecting victim.
> 
> Seriously, pick you battles.



I know the risks involved and my numbers add up. It's only about what's they're entitled to and what I am.



Sarenco said:


> Many landlords would simply return the security deposit in full in these circumstances and would focus their energy on re-letting the property as soon as possible, using a letting agent where appropriate.



Thanks. I've used an agent or letting in the past and will do again this time.


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## Gordon Gekko (28 Sep 2020)

Personally, I would look to get the property re-let as soon as possible. If it ended up not being vacant, I’d let it go. But if the property ended up being vacant during the notice period, I’d enforce by withholding the deposit. The landlord/tenant relationship is already tilted too far in favour of the tenant without landlords lying down like patsies when they’re entitled to claim something.


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## Arnie Hammer (28 Sep 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Personally, I would look to get the property re-let as soon as possible. If it ended up not being vacant, I’d let it go.



Indeed, almost certain that property will be vacant for some of the notice period.


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## Gordon Gekko (28 Sep 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> Indeed, almost certain that property will be vacant for some of the notice period.



The relevant protections work both ways. The OP is being left completely in the lurch by the tenants. Landlords aren’t operating charities. Tenants can’t just leg it and give two weeks’ notice. The OP should not feel guilty about enforcing the rules here.


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## Sarenco (28 Sep 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> Indeed, almost certain that property will be vacant for some of the notice period.


Bear in mind that your time has a cost.  

Is it worth your time having a fight over a couple of weeks rent?  After tax?


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## LS400 (29 Sep 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> The relevant protections work both way



No it doesn't, not in the real world.
Real world experience comes with knowing when to enforce your rights, and when, to pull in your horns. If protection did work both ways, it would be an even playing field for both parties. Its not, and I think you know that.

I've been lucky over here with tenants, and it is down to pure luck. The longer I stay in this game though, the greater the chance, of hooking up with the nightmare tenants. They are out there, and they're not afraid of the Rtb.

This has happened to me before, leaving earlier than the agreed contract after a number of great years with them, Ive wished them well and dropped them up a bottle of wine.


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## Gordon Gekko (29 Sep 2020)

LS400 said:


> No it doesn't, not in the real world.
> Real world experience comes with knowing when to enforce your rights, and when, to pull in your horns. If protection did work both ways, it would be an even playing field for both parties. Its not, and I think you know that.
> 
> I've been lucky over here with tenants, and it is down to pure luck. The longer I stay in this game though, the greater the chance, of hooking up with the nightmare tenants. They are out there, and they're not afraid of the Rtb.
> ...



I’ve never read anything as naive or patronising in my life.

I’m delighted to hear about your beautiful relationship with your tenants where bottles of wine are routinely exchanged.

I have always had a good relationship with my tenants; a good, friendly relationship, but it is a business, where rules are rules, and they operate each way.

If you read the OP, the tenants have bailed and gone somewhere else giving the OP 15 days’ notice. They are refusing to pay October’s rent and demanding their deposit back. I’m all for being more flexible in marginal cases (e.g. “it’s 56 days but can we leave after 30 days?”). But this is an affront.

I would not suggest having a row with them or turning nasty; I’d simply apply the rules as they apply on the basis that I have been seriously discommoded by the tenants’ behaviour. It’s not a charity, it’s a business.

And the rules DO exist to protect everyone. Otherwise we’re living in a parallel universe where landlords have to give massive notice whereas for tenants it’s a free-for-all.


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## LS400 (29 Sep 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Otherwise we’re living in a parallel universe where landlords have to give massive notice whereas for tenants it’s a free-for-all.




And finally, the penny has dropped.  It is exactly how it is. Wake up to reality. 
Hence, pick your battles.


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## Arnie Hammer (29 Sep 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I would not suggest having a row with them or turning nasty; I’d simply apply the rules as they apply on the basis that I have been seriously discommoded by the tenants’ behaviour. It’s not a charity, it’s a business.



Thanks. Several posters have made it clear that it is my legal right to retain the deposit in lieu of unpaid rent for the remainder of the notice period.

I plan to retain two weeks and if I get the place let sooner I will refund the difference.

I don't see what grounds the tenants would have to go to the RTB.


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## Gordon Gekko (29 Sep 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> Thanks. Several posters have made it clear that it is my legal right to retain the deposit in lieu of unpaid rent for the remainder of the notice period.
> 
> I plan to retain two weeks and if I get the place let sooner I will refund the difference.
> 
> I don't see what grounds the tenants would have to go to the RTB.



That sounds very reasonable


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## Gordon Gekko (29 Sep 2020)

LS400 said:


> And finally, the penny has dropped.  It is exactly how it is. Wake up to reality.
> Hence, pick your battles.



I have no idea what point you’re making.

A tenant has to give notice. They then give a small fraction of that notice, leaving the landlord high and dry.

And your grand plan is to lie down and just give them their money back, even when the law entitles the landlord to keep it.

Bizarre.


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## Sarenco (29 Sep 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> I don't see what grounds the tenants would have to go to the RTB.


They may not have good grounds for complaint but that doesn't mean they won't complain to the RTB.

Would you have the time to respond to any such complaint and attend an RTB hearing?

Strictly speaking you can only withhold monies for unpaid rent (including unpaid rent that arose during the notice period your tenants should have given you).  As such, you should wait for the relevant time to elapse before notifying your tenants that you are withholding their deposit for unpaid rent.


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## Arnie Hammer (29 Sep 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Would you have the time to respond to any such complaint and attend an RTB hearing?



It's a four-figure sum so, yes, probably worth a day of my time if it comes to it.



Sarenco said:


> Strictly speaking you can only withhold monies for unpaid rent (including unpaid rent that arose during the notice period your tenants should have given you). As such, you should wait for the relevant time to elapse before notifying your tenants that you are withholding their deposit for unpaid rent.



This is useful advice. Thank you.


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## Gordon Gekko (29 Sep 2020)

Flipping this around, why would the tenants waste their time writing to the RTB and attending a hearing for a case they’re destined to lose?

It would seem to me that landlords being loose and naively benign around these issues probably encourages bad tenant behaviour.


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## Sarenco (29 Sep 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Flipping this around, why would the tenants waste their time writing to the RTB and attending a hearing for a case they’re destined to lose?


They're only destined to lose if the (busy) OP actually responds to any complaint they may make.

Bear in mind that it's essentially free to make a complaint to the RTB and there's no question of the tenants having to cover the OP's time costs of dealing with the complaint.


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## imalwayshappy (29 Sep 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Flipping this around, why would the tenants waste their time writing to the RTB and attending a hearing for a case they’re destined to lose?
> 
> It would seem to me that landlords being loose and naively benign around these issues probably encourages bad tenant behaviour.




Agree completely. Hence my previous post. If Landlords continue to roll over we are normalizing this type of tenant behaviour.


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## Arnie Hammer (29 Sep 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Bear in mind that it's essentially free to make a complaint to the RTB and there's no question of the tenants having to cover the OP's time costs of dealing with the complaint.



Dealing with the RTB is a hassle for both sides. Who knows what they will do in this case.



Sarenco said:


> Strictly speaking you can only withhold monies for unpaid rent (including unpaid rent that arose during the notice period your tenants should have given you). *As such, you should wait for the relevant time to elapse* before notifying your tenants that you are withholding their deposit for unpaid rent.



It's a bit unclear about the sequence of events you suggest here:
1) They stop paying rent
2) They give me the keys
3) Next day I issue them with a 14-day notice for non-payment of rent
4) After 14 days I tell them I am withholding part of deposit for non-payment of rent


I am just a bit sure about point 3 here. Wouldn't a demand for rent imply that a tenancy is still in place? Once the keys are back I don't want them claiming that they still have any right to access the place. I've looked at RTB.ie and there isn't much guidance here.


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## AAAContributor (29 Sep 2020)

It's interesting to read what different AAM posters would do in the OP's situation.

What could have been done is that the quid pro quo could have been that the tenants in-situ would cooperate fully with the OP in re-letting the accommodation. The property would be marketed immediately on Sep 15 with viewings to be accommodated flexibly by the current tenants.

The issue here is that the OP is an amateur landlord, does not have an agent, had their hands full with a nipper, and time has been wasted between Sep 14 and now contemplating the situation and the rules. The response on Sep 15 should have been to crack on with marketing and re-letting stat.

One way or the other there was going to be a vacant period and the landlord out-of-pocket. The tenants could have stayed up until Nov 11 (or whenever the statutory date was to be) and enforced their rights to peaceful and exclusive occupation of the dwelling with very minimal allowance of the landlord to set up viewings. Unless the landlord had someone to let the property sight unseen, there was going to be a gap.

The rules weren't necessarily the the first thing to resort to here - getting the property re-let was.


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## Páid (29 Sep 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Strictly speaking you can only withhold monies for unpaid rent (including unpaid rent that arose during the notice period your tenants should have given you).  As such, you should wait for the relevant time to elapse before notifying your tenants that you are withholding their deposit for unpaid rent.


This is incorrect. You may hold the deposit for unpaid utilities, damage to the property, missing items, rubbish removal, cleaning, etc. 

I posted a link to the RTB website earlier that lists all the allowed deductions.


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## Sarenco (29 Sep 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> Wouldn't a demand for rent imply that a tenancy is still in place?


You don't need to make a demand for rent.

Rent remains due until the end of the statutory notice period.  Whether the tenants have vacated the property or not is irrelevant.

So the sequence I would recommend, if you are intent on retaining the security deposit, is as follows:

1.  Carry out your final inspection of the property and receive the keys.
2.  Wait until the end of October and then notify your tenants in writing that you will be retaining their security deposit to cover the unpaid rent.
3.  Ready yourself to respond to a complaint to the RTB (if it hasn't already been made at that point)!


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## DeeKie (29 Sep 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Personally, I would look to get the property re-let as soon as possible. If it ended up not being vacant, I’d let it go. But if the property ended up being vacant during the notice period, I’d enforce by withholding the deposit. The landlord/tenant relationship is already tilted too far in favour of the tenant without landlords lying down like patsies when they’re entitled to claim something.


This is a very reasonable approach.


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## Sarenco (29 Sep 2020)

Páid said:


> You may hold the deposit for unpaid utilities, damage to the property, missing items, rubbish removal, cleaning, etc.


You can indeed but that's all irrelevant in the context of this thread.


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## Sarenco (29 Sep 2020)

AAAContributor said:


> The rules weren't necessarily the the first thing to resort to here - getting the property re-let was.


Agree 100%.


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## Arnie Hammer (29 Sep 2020)

AAAContributor said:


> The issue here is that the OP is an amateur landlord, does not have an agenT



Yes I'm an amateur but so are most landlords. I plan to use an agent for the letting and have one lined up. The problem is that taking pictures and viewings aren't feasible for the last week as tenants are packing up and moving out. The week before that I had work commitments. 



AAAContributor said:


> What could have been done is that the quid pro quo could have been that the tenants in-situ would cooperate fully with the OP in re-letting the accommodation. The property would be marketed immediately on Sep 15 with viewings to be accommodated flexibly by the current tenants.



This is right. I would have worked with this. I am not trying to screw anyone over. I will be out of pocket because they haven't done what they were legally supposed to.


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## SCA911 (30 Sep 2020)

Similar position a few years ago. This might be of help: https://askaboutmoney.com/threads/tenant-leaving-without-giving-much-notice.203887/


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## Sarenco (30 Sep 2020)

Hi @wab0607

As a matter of curiosity, do you think the substantial time and effort that you spent on successfully defending your position with the RTB was worth it in the end?

Would you do it again?


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## Arnie Hammer (1 Oct 2020)

wab0607 said:


> Similar position a few years ago. This might be of help: https://askaboutmoney.com/threads/tenant-leaving-without-giving-much-notice.203887/



Thanks for the link. I was surprised at the RTB staff encouraging people to settle to keep their names off the website.

Personally I am not bothered by this. I can imagine my tenants might be though.


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## Leo (1 Oct 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> I was surprised at the RTB staff encouraging people to settle to keep their names off the website.



Every landlord should check that register prior to accepting new tenants!


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## SCA911 (1 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Hi @wab0607
> 
> As a matter of curiosity, do you think the substantial time and effort that you spent on successfully defending your position with the RTB was worth it in the end?
> 
> Would you do it again?



Yes and yes.

I'm sick of all landlords being painted as greedy and lacking integrity.  I take my responsibilities as a landlord seriously and ensure the property is in good condition, repairs made in a timely manner, etc. However I am not looking for a pat on the back for this.  This is the path I chose and do not expect credit for doing what I am supposed to do.  That approach has to go both ways though and these tenants were taking the mick.  It annoyed me that they attempted to portray me and our relationship as anything but fair and professional.  In their complaint they stated we had treated them like "animals" once they told us they were leaving and while I do not let emotion get involved in transactions with a tenant, this got my back up.  At the end of the day our response to their complaint involved a bit of photocopying and typing and a morning at the hearing but as I keep records of everything relating to the property this was not a big deal.  I was just glad that my approach to being a landlord paid off because if it had not I think I would have just thrown in the towel and sold it.


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## imalwayshappy (2 Oct 2020)

Leo said:


> Every landlord should check that register prior to accepting new tenants!



How can you search the RTB register by name? I thought you can only search by address?


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## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Can we please debunk the myth of the “substantial time and effort” required to defend a baseless RTB claim?

I’d happily write a letter and show up at a hearing for a couple of grand.

And the flipside applies; why would a tenant bother wasting his or her time on a frivolous claim that’s doomed to fail based on the pretty clear rules?


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## Arnie Hammer (2 Oct 2020)

Update: tenants have left and there isn't really anything by way of damage.

I have an agent in and the place should be advertised next week. Probably won't have tenants before middle of month.

At end-October I'll write to them to say I am keeping two weeks' deposit in lieu of unpaid rent for their notice period. Although they'll probably be in touch before then.....

I will write an update when all of this is resolved. Advice all really useful




imalwayshappy said:


> How can you search the RTB register by name? I thought you can only search by address?



I looked and you can search by name.


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I’d happily write a letter and show up at a hearing for a couple of grand.


That's fair enough Gordon but plenty of folks might logically conclude that it's not worth their while to take a morning off work to secure a month's, taxable, rent.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> That's fair enough Gordon but plenty of folks might logically conclude that it's not worth their while to take a morning off work to secure a month's, taxable, rent.



“logically conclude”?

Who exactly would logically conclude that a it’s not worth a half a day of annual leave to collect €2,000 gross/€1,000 net?

(average rent in Dublin, for example, is €2k a month)

I’m not aware of many roles where one can earn €1,000 in a morning, net of tax; €4,000 a day gross is over €1,000,000 a year.

Hedge-fund manager pay for a morning sitting around, assuming the tenants are stupid enough to waste their own precious time on a case which they’ve no hope of winning; I’ll take that, thanks!


----------



## Arnie Hammer (2 Oct 2020)

Someone told me that RTB are doing remote hearings as well due to Covid.

If this is the case I can probably balance it with work/home life.

After tax it's not four figures but I think it's worth my time.


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

The national standardised average rent is currently €1,226 (per the RTB).  

Would I take a morning off work to secure €1,226, which would be worth less than €600 to me after tax?

Probably not.  

I certainly wouldn't if I had pressing work or childcare commitments elsewhere.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> The national standardised average rent is currently €1,226 (per the RTB).
> 
> Would I take a morning off work to secure €1,226, which would be worth less than €600 to me after tax?
> 
> ...



You wouldn’t take a morning off work to collect €600?

Wow.

But here’s the thing, we’re not talking about you. We’re talking about the OP.


----------



## Leo (2 Oct 2020)

imalwayshappy said:


> How can you search the RTB register by name? I thought you can only search by address?



They publish the outcome of all cases they adjudicate on, you can search that by name.


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> You wouldn’t take a morning off work to collect €600?


I probably wouldn't use up my valuable free time to have a row over €600.


----------



## Thirsty (2 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> I probably wouldn't use up my valuable free time to have a row over €600.


Am I the only one giggling at the irony here?


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> But here’s the thing, we’re not talking about you. We’re talking about the OP.


Absolutely.

The OP has told us that turning the property around is difficult at the moment due to work and having a new born.

In those circumstances, I simply asked whether it was worth the OP's time having a fight over a couple of weeks rent, after tax? 

The OP has concluded that it is - which is obviously fair enough.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> I probably wouldn't use up my valuable free time to have a row over €600.



A row implies some sort of two sidedness.

This isn’t a row; it’s a slam-dunk.

It’s like someone saying to me “hey Gordon, there’s €600-1,000 in an envelope in town waiting for you. You just have to write a letter and take a half day from work to collect it.

I’d do that. That’s an efficient use of my time. And I suspect most people would.


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I’d do that


Fair enough Gordon but this thread isn't about you.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> Fair enough Gordon but this thread isn't about you.



No, it’s about the OP who doesn’t seem to be swimming against the tide thankfully.


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> No, it’s about the OP who doesn’t seem to be swimming against the tide thankfully.


I really don't know what "tide" you are talking about.

The OP asked for feedback and appears to have found the responses helpful.

You seem to be intent on picking a fight for reasons that are beyond me.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> I really don't know what "tide" you are talking about.
> 
> The OP asked for feedback and appears to have found the responses helpful.
> 
> You seem to be intent on picking a fight for reasons that are beyond me.



Not really Sarenco; I just find it tiresome when posters continue to double-down on patently ridiculous viewpoints. Exhibit A, your most recent “contributions” to this thread and your “let them eat cake” attitude to free money. I don’t believe that you really think that; sadly, you just seem unwilling to admit that you’re wrong. A common theme across your posts. Hard to see the point really, considering that your contributions are generally really good and positive.


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I don’t believe you for a second; sadly, you just seem unwilling to admit that you’re wrong.


Wrong about what?

I set out the legal position and then I asked the OP whether it was worth his time having a fight over a couple of weeks rent, after tax.  That seemed like a reasonable question in circumstances where the OP is busy with work and a new born.

I said that I probably wouldn't take a morning off work to try to secure €600, particularly if I had pressing work or childcare commitments elsewhere.  That's just a statement of fact.

I am happy to admit that I am wrong when I make a mistake about something.  You haven't pointed to any such mistake and at this stage your posts are getting increasingly abusive.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Right. So if the rent was very low and your marginal tax rate was as high as possible and you had pressing work or childcare requirements, you personally wouldn’t be bothered taking a half day’s annual leave to collect the guaranteed €600. I think we have that.

As for your accusation of abuse, I don’t see where I’m playing the man rather than the ball; it’s your point and your position that I’m having a go at, not you personally.

At this point, I fear that you’re simply trolling.


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

Please don't put words in my mouth Gordon.

I simply asked whether it was worth the OP's time having a fight over a couple of weeks rent, after tax?  That was a question - not a position.

The OP concluded that it was, which is obviously fair enough.

In response to your later post, I subsequently said that I probably wouldn't take a morning off work to try to secure €600, particularly if I had pressing work or childcare commitments elsewhere.  Spending time in the RTB on a day off would not be my idea of fun.

I note you still haven't specified what I said that was wrong and yet you are now accusing me of trolling!


----------



## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Where’s the fight? There is no fight!

It’s a slamdunk.


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

The OP's tenants have said they want their deposit back.  The OP wants to retain the deposit.

That's the dispute.

I advised that the OP can legally retain monies from the security deposit to cover rent that should have been paid up to the end of the notice period that should have been given by the tenants.

But that doesn't mean the tenants won't refer the dispute to the RTB.  After all, it's essentially a free shot.

The OP has constraints on his time and therefore it seemed reasonable to ask whether the OP would have the time to respond to any such complaint and attend an RTB hearing or whether it would be worth his while.

Now, can you point out what element of that response is wrong?


----------



## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> The OP's tenants have said they want their deposit back.  The OP wants to retain the deposit.
> 
> That's the dispute.
> 
> ...



Sarenco,

I cannot believe you’re still flogging this dead horse.

You should organise a meeting for people who don’t have the time to write a letter and take a morning’s annual leave in order to collect a guaranteed €600-1,000.

If phoneboxes still existed, one might be the perfect venue.

Enjoy your weekend.

Gordon


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I cannot believe you’re still flogging this dead horse.


What dead horse?

I asked you on three separate occasions to specify exactly what I said that was wrong - which was your original accusation.  You have conspicuously failed to do so.

Plenty of accidental landlords would struggle to find the time to adequately respond to an RTB complaint and attend an RTB hearing. Particularly if they had a demanding job and a new born child.

Even if they did find the time, it's entirely reasonable to ask whether it's worth the grief over a relatively modest sum.


----------



## SparkRite (2 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> You should organise a meeting for people who don’t have the time to write a letter and take a morning’s annual leave in order to collect a guaranteed €600-1,000.



Personally if it were me:-
Is it worth it ?


----------



## Gordon Gekko (2 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> What dead horse?
> 
> I asked you on three separate occasions to specify exactly what I said that was wrong - which was your original accusation.  You have conspicuously failed to do so.
> 
> ...



What “grief”?

You’re implying that it’s a fair fight.

It’s a slamdunk!


----------



## Sarenco (2 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> You’re implying that it’s a fair fight.


No, I'm saying it's a hassle to prepare an adequate response to a complaint and to attend an RTB hearing.

Not most people's idea of a good time.


----------



## losttheplot (2 Oct 2020)

There's could be a risk tenants start listing other trivial issues to RTB to make the landlord look bad. Then the hassle may not be worth it.


----------



## Leo (3 Oct 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> You should organise a meeting for people who don’t have the time to write a letter and take a morning’s annual leave in order to collect a guaranteed €600-1,000.



In fairness, how many people fail to shop around for a better mortgage deal that would save them considerably more money for less disturbance? 

I've been to an RTB adjudication to support a friend as she didn't feel safe going in alone against someone who had threatened her and her family with harm. I thought that was a slam dunk case too, but even though the tenant had no response to photos that showed significant damage during their tenancy, and even denied that furniture the landlord said was removed from the property had ever been present before going on to show pictures supporting their claims that clearly showed some of the items. RTB ordered the deposit returned in full with no account for unpaid rent.


----------



## Sarenco (3 Oct 2020)

You can never be 100% certain of the outcome of any RTB adjudication.

For example, the OP's tenants could argue that the OP failed to mitigate his losses by not promptly advertising the property to alternative tenants.

I'm not saying that argument would necessarily succeed but there is always a possibility that an adjudicator would take it into account in any determination.


----------



## Arnie Hammer (5 Oct 2020)

Sarenco said:


> For example, the OP's tenants could argue that the OP failed to mitigate his losses by not promptly advertising the property to alternative tenants.



The agent has been in, pictures have been taken and it'll be on the market some time this week.

As I said it wasn't possible to do this sooner as I was busy with work one week and after that the place was full of boxes as they were gradually moving out.


----------



## Sarenco (5 Oct 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> As I said it wasn't possible to do this sooner as I was busy with work


Playing devil's advocate, your tenants could argue that they shouldn't be penalised by the fact that you were busy elsewhere.

Again, I'm not saying that argument would necessarily succeed but there is always an element of uncertainty with any RTB adjudication.


----------



## Nutso (5 Oct 2020)

Playing devil's advocate, the landlord could argue that had the tenants given the correct 56 day notice, they would have been in a position to advertise in a reasonable timeframe.


----------



## RentingD (6 Oct 2020)

Personally I would return the deposit and send them on their way, especially as they've been good tenants. You'll fill their spot no bother - rental accommodation is in demand from what I've heard.

I am waiting for a problematic tenant to move on at the moment. They caused untold problems, causing fear to neighbours being the reason  I'm returning deposit and smiling sweetly to get them out. No more sleepless night will mean it's money well spent. 

It's a real pity RTB aren't more supportive of landlords but from what I've read here I'd rather not have dealings with them either.


----------



## imalwayshappy (6 Oct 2020)

RentingD said:


> Personally I would return the deposit and send them on their way, especially as they've been good tenants. You'll fill their spot no bother - rental accommodation is in demand from what I've heard.
> 
> I am waiting for a problematic tenant to move on at the moment. They caused untold problems, causing fear to neighbours being the reason  I'm returning deposit and smiling sweetly to get them out. No more sleepless night will mean it's money well spent.
> 
> It's a real pity RTB aren't more supportive of landlords but from what I've read here I'd rather not have dealings with them either.



I think this is half the issue on this thread. From an easy life perspective give back the deposit and move on but its fundamentally wrong to do so as they breached their contract and the Landlord is entitled to keep the deposit in full.  By always returning deposits landlords are effectively giving the thumbs up to this type of behavior. I am not disagreeing with your strategy above, I know its hard dealing with troublesome tenants and you will do what you have to. It's a shame that landlords are always over a barrel.

If I take out life insurance and lie about an illness and fundamentally die of that illness the life company will not pay out as I broke the contract.


----------



## Arnie Hammer (2 Dec 2020)

*Update*: I managed to get new tenants in (same rent) at the end of October.

I wrote to the previous tenants advising them that I was keeping two weeks rent for lack of legal notice (and that I could have kept more). I didn't retain anything for damage as there was nothing material, and I returned the rest.

They were not happy about this at all but I didn't budge. I got an email from the RTB saying that previous tenants have taken a case, going straight to adjudication. I've registered on the RTB website (it's a bit confusing) but their claim doesn't seem to be there yet. The good news is that due to Covid they are doing no hearings so it is all written submissions.


----------



## DublinHead54 (2 Dec 2020)

Arnie Hammer said:


> *Update*: I managed to get new tenants in (same rent) at the end of October.
> 
> I wrote to the previous tenants advising them that I was keeping two weeks rent for lack of legal notice (and that I could have kept more). I didn't retain anything for damage as there was nothing material, and I returned the rest.
> 
> They were not happy about this at all but I didn't budge. I got an email from the RTB saying that previous tenants have taken a case, going straight to adjudication. I've registered on the RTB website (it's a bit confusing) but their claim doesn't seem to be there yet. The good news is that due to Covid they are doing no hearings so it is all written submissions.



Is there a risk that you will have additional costs if the ruling goes against you?

My two cents is that you were right in keeping some of the deposit. I am all for being a fair and understanding landlord, but in this case in my opinion the tenants could have given more notice. At the end of the day being a landlord is a business and the regulation and tax has reduced the ability for small private landlords to be more considerate.


----------



## Lockup (2 Dec 2020)

Lets see if the kangaroo court of the rtb sides with you or the tenant.


----------



## Sarenco (2 Dec 2020)

Best of luck @Arnie Hammer - do let us know how you get on.


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## Arnie Hammer (3 Dec 2020)

Dublinbay12 said:


> Is there a risk that you will have additional costs if the ruling goes against you?



Maybe.

But I read some judgements on the RTB website where landlords have to basically pay a few hundred euros damage. But this is for cases with really bad landlord behaviour like giving 3 days notice by whatsapp.

I have everything in writing and explained my reasons by letter to the tenants very quickly and returned half the deposit. So I don't think I can be accused of acting unreasonably.



Sarenco said:


> Best of luck @Arnie Hammer - do let us know how you get on.



I will.


----------



## elcato (3 Dec 2020)

Sorry for being too lazy to re-read the whole thread but did you notify the tenants of this originally so that they could have had time to re-think the notice period ?


----------



## Arnie Hammer (3 Dec 2020)

elcato said:


> Sorry for being too lazy to re-read the whole thread but did you notify the tenants of this originally so that they could have had time to re-think the notice period ?



I said it over the phone at the time but when they gave notice they had already signed a lease on new place and were packing up.

Anyway I can't see how it is my job to inform the other party of what the law says they have to do.


----------



## bipped (3 Apr 2021)

Sarenco said:


> Best of luck @Arnie Hammer - do let us know how you get on.


Any update, what happened at rtb?


----------



## Arnie Hammer (3 Apr 2021)

bipped said:


> Any update, what happened at rtb?


Not yet. The adjudication date was two weeks ago and it was all done via email. I don't know how long it is before I'll hear from the RTB about the result.


----------



## Leo (6 Apr 2021)

Arnie Hammer said:


> Not yet. The adjudication date was two weeks ago and it was all done via email. I don't know how long it is before I'll hear from the RTB about the result.



You may not even hear from them directly, run an occasional search on the RTB site.


----------



## Arnie Hammer (8 Apr 2021)

I'm in shock.

I got the adjudication report from the RTB this morning and it's gone against me. Basically I had some emails with the tenants agreeing to show up and inspect the property, collect keys, etc when they were moving out. The RTB says that this is evidence that I agreed a shorter period of notice than is legally required. Apparently this is allowed under Section 69 of the Act. So I have to refund the tenants the two weeks rent I retained after they moved out. So they've got away with 16 days notice even though legally its 56.

I have ten days to decide whether to appeal.


----------



## Leo (8 Apr 2021)

No surprise there unfortunately, they usually side with the tenants.


----------



## Sarenco (8 Apr 2021)

Arnie Hammer said:


> I got the adjudication report from the RTB this morning and it's gone against me.


Sorry to hear that - obviously not the slam dunk suggested by some.

Are you thinking of appealing the adjudication?


----------



## Bronte (8 Apr 2021)

I would definitely appeal it.  But get your ducks in a row.  No harm dragging this out and pissing off both the tenant and the RTB.  At least you'll get some satisfaction from that.


----------



## noproblem (8 Apr 2021)

Arnie Hammer said:


> I'm in shock.
> 
> I got the adjudication report from the RTB this morning and it's gone against me. Basically I had some emails with the tenants agreeing to show up and inspect the property, collect keys, etc when they were moving out. The RTB says that this is evidence that I agreed a shorter period of notice than is legally required. Apparently this is allowed under Section 69 of the Act. So I have to refund the tenants the two weeks rent I retained after they moved out. So they've got away with 16 days notice even though legally its 56.
> 
> I have ten days to decide whether to appeal.


Sorry to hear this Arnie but not "really" surprised.  It pays to remember that there's no sympathy in business and showing tenants sympathy will more times than not come back to haunt you. That's my opinion. Too many sob stories doing the rounds and no wonder there's owners running away from the renting business. The big boys are taking over the letting now, so let's see how tenants get on with their sad tales with those boys. For the vast majority of people thinking of buying property to let and thinking they'll make a few soft quid out of it? Keep your money and look elsewhere for investments, this isn't the trade for individuals anymore.


----------



## SPC100 (8 Apr 2021)

Seems very unfair.

Do you have any evidence that you could have presented were you warned the tenants they would owe you money if they left early?

How can we learn from this?

How could you have prevented your communication being used against you as evidence of agreement?

Would it have been ok if you  had disagreed with the termination and them moving out in every email/sms/letter, while coordinating the handing back of  the property?


----------



## Bronte (8 Apr 2021)

Arnie Hammer said:


> I'm in shock.
> 
> I got the adjudication report from the RTB this morning and it's gone against me. Basically I had some emails with the tenants agreeing to show up and inspect the property, collect keys, etc when they were moving out. The RTB says that this is evidence that I agreed a shorter period of notice than is legally required. Apparently this is allowed under Section 69 of the Act. So I have to refund the tenants the two weeks rent I retained after they moved out. So they've got away with 16 days notice even though legally its 56.
> 
> I have ten days to decide whether to appeal.


Also appealing helps other landlords.  Can you tell us what the wording on the RTB decision was and also the content of your emails to the tenants.  You've already helped landlords because we now know that somehow it can be implied we landlords are agreeing to a shorter period of notice by certain actions and I'd like to know which specific actions 'imply' that - sounds crazy to me - but we don't know what's in the decision nor what is in your emails.  

So my emails will be:

Dear Tenant, I'm really upset you're leaving without proper notice and I will be holding the deposit in lieu of rent. .....


----------



## SPC100 (8 Apr 2021)

Jim2007 said:


> But you have already accepted their shorter notice without objection.... so too late to change your mind now.


Reading back on the thread it looks like Jim called it early on!


----------



## Bronte (8 Apr 2021)

SPC100 said:


> Reading back on the thread it looks like Jim called it early on!


Tenant's played him too

- withheld October's rent
- left early
- went to RTB

They knew exactly how to game the system.


----------



## Arnie Hammer (8 Apr 2021)

SPC100 said:


> Do you have any evidence that you could have presented were you warned the tenants they would owe you money if they left early?



I told them on the phone that the legal period was 56 days. Nothing in writing. But as I said before, I don't think it's my job to remind the tenants of their legal responsibilities.



SPC100 said:


> Would it have been ok if you had disagreed with the termination and them moving out in every email/sms/letter, while coordinating the handing back of the property?



I don't know. This is Section 69 of the Act:

_the landlord or tenant may agree to a lesser period of notice being given than that required by a preceding provision of this Chapter and such lesser period of notice may be given accordingly.

(2) Such an agreement to a lesser period of notice being given may only be entered into at, or after, the time it is indicated to the tenant or landlord (as appropriate) by the other party that he or she intends to terminate the tenancy._

The next time this happens I will make sure never to put in an email anything that looks like an agreement.



Bronte said:


> Can you tell us what the wording on the RTB decision was and also the content of your emails to the tenants.


I don't want to post anything too identifiable. Basically the emails were something like: tenants: "we will be moving out on 27th, can you inspect the property on 30th?"; me: "okay, I'll meet you at 7pm". The RTB ruled that this was me agreeing to shorten the notice period in line with Section 69 of the Act.



SPC100 said:


> Reading back on the thread it looks like Jim called it early on!


That's right. I thought about refusing at the time. But then you would have had a situation where the tenants weren't paying rent but were still tenants against their will, and me not able to re-let the property. I think this could've gone pear-shaped too.



Bronte said:


> I would definitely appeal it. But get your ducks in a row. No harm dragging this out and pissing off both the tenant and the RTB. At least you'll get some satisfaction from that.



It's €85 and more paperwork. At this point unless someone points out some big legal error by the RTB I don't think it's worth it.



Bronte said:


> Tenant's played him too


I don't think it was all planned out. They told me on the phone that something had just come up that they wanted to jump at. They weren't aware of the 56-days notice thing until I looked them up and told them. The RTB claim is free I think for tenants so they had nothing to lose once I held back the two weeks deposit.


----------



## Bronte (8 Apr 2021)

Well I can well see how it's implied there that you agreed.  And nowhere in your email did you state you would be withholding the deposit in lieu of rent?  Or in another email or text? Anything anywhere?

Do you know what the tenant's claim to the RTB stated?

Thank goodness I'm not a one for bothering with notice.  I couldn't be doing with looking up dates.  And no point having a lease. I just give the deposits back whenever it has arisen.  I'm thinking of selling a property but I'm going to do it by the book and take the advice of the IPOA before I so much as let the tenant's have a whiff of what I'm at.


----------



## Sarenco (8 Apr 2021)

Arnie Hammer said:


> Basically the emails were something like: tenants: "we will be moving out on 27th, can you inspect the property on 30th?"; me: "okay, I'll meet you at 7pm".


To be fair, I can see why the adjudicator interpreted that exchange as an agreement to a lesser notice period. 



Arnie Hammer said:


> The RTB claim is free I think for tenants so they had nothing to lose once I held back the two weeks deposit.


It costs a tenant €15 to lodge a case for adjudication.


----------



## SPC100 (8 Apr 2021)

What did rtb expect you to do. Refuse to meet them until after day 56? Leave the house idle and risk further loss of income?

That sounds to me like comms coordinating things as opposed to agreeing early termination of lease.

I guess if you have no evidence supporting your lack of agreement to early termination or intention to bill them regardless then it's hard for rtb to reach another conclusion.


----------



## SPC100 (8 Apr 2021)

"Moving out" (quote from your paraphrased email) is not the same thing as terminating a tenancy. The lease had start and finish dates. You choose your own moving in and out dates.


----------



## SPC100 (8 Apr 2021)

Did they serve you with correct formal notice of termination. I believe landlords get done by RTB  regularly for not doing it correctly. Not sure if it would help you though.

From threshold:

For a notice of termination to be valid it must:
- Be in writing (Email, text, verbal notice are not valid)
- Specify the date of service
- State that any issue as to the validity of the notice must be referred to the Residential Tenancies Board(RTB) within 28 days of receipt of it.

The RTB have a sample notice on their website that you can use click here to access them.

Your written notice can be served on your landlord/agent in a number of ways including:

Leaving it at the address provided by the landlord/agent for you to reasonably contact them

Personally handing it  to the landlord/agent

Sending through the normal post (There is no need for registered post) and the presumption is that it is received through the normal course of delivery (usually this is the next day)



A deposit cannot be used in lieu of rent and you are liable for paying the rent up to the end of the notice period unless otherwise agreed with your landlord/agent. It is recommended to give notice in  such a way that it ends with the end of a rental period.


----------



## Arnie Hammer (8 Apr 2021)

Bronte said:


> And nowhere in your email did you state you would be withholding the deposit in lieu of rent?


The sequence was as follows. They rang me to give notice, then give notice in the post. I rang them back to say that I had looked it up and that 56 days was the legal period. They said we've signed a lease on a new place and would be out at the end of the month and weren't paying for the next month. I had a few email exchanges then to set up an inspection, which was cordial. After that I wrote to them that I would be withholding two weeks rent from deposit, and soon after they went to the RTB.

As I said I thought about refusing to accept their notice but they could have left anyway and gone incommunicado with the keys and this would have left me with no rent and no access either.



Sarenco said:


> To be fair, I can see why the adjudicator interpreted that exchange as an agreement to a lesser notice period.


To me it's a stretch, but yeah, I can see that too.



Sarenco said:


> It costs a tenant €15 to lodge a case for adjudication.


Sorry I didn't realise that. €15 isn't not going to put anyone off though.



SPC100 said:


> The lease had start and finish dates.


It was a Part IV tenancy so as I understand it ends 56 days after the notice is given. Or if a landlord agrees it can be less (which I know now). 



SPC100 said:


> Did they serve you with correct formal notice of termination.


The RTB actually said that they the tenants' notice wasn't correct on one of the grounds, but that Section 69 still applied to my emails to them!


----------



## Bronte (8 Apr 2021)

Sorry now I've changed my mind:

_After that I wrote to them that I would be withholding two weeks rent from deposit, and soon after they went to the RTB._

You did agree on two weeks.


----------



## Arnie Hammer (9 Apr 2021)

Bronte said:


> You did agree on two weeks.


Just to summarise again.

After the tenants left I wrote to them saying that 56 days was the legal minimum for notice, and that they had given only 16 days. I then said I was entitled to 40 days further rent, but was only retaining half of their month's deposit, the "two weeks".

The RTB ruled that I had agreed to their 16-day notice period by agreeing to inspect the property when they moved out, and that I should refund the full month's deposit.

I think that's what I'm going to do. I don't see the point of drawing it out any longer.


----------



## SPC100 (9 Apr 2021)

If you are looking for another opinion on the fairness of their finding, I think you would need to share actual wording of those emails.

It seems unfair to construe coordinating for inspection and returning of a key to be agreeing to shorter notice period.

It would not make business sense to refuse the inspection and key return, after a tenant said they were going to pay no more, as you are putting more income at risk if you refused.

But without reading the actual emails is hard to make an impartial decision.


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## Lockup (9 Apr 2021)

Seems to me the RTB is a kangaroo court paid for by LL's for the benefit of tenants. This is just an example of that


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## Thirsty (9 Apr 2021)

As I believe I said back in September, who needs the hassle?

Too many hours wasted, too much emotional investment for two weeks of a deposit.

Lesson learned; cut 'em loose & get the property rented out again  & make sure you've no voids.

RTB used to name landlords when they published  results of cases - do they still do that?


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## SPC100 (9 Apr 2021)

Landlords and tenants are named in the findings on the rtb site. But there are no real details given about the cases, just the outcome e.g. ms A will pay  ms B x euro of deposit incorrectly withheld.

I would be less likely to rent from a landlord who has a rtb finding against them.


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## SPC100 (9 Apr 2021)

Lockup said:


> Seems to me the RTB is a kangaroo court paid for by LL's for the benefit of tenants. This is just an example of that


Without seeing the evidence the rtb had it is hard to draw that conclusion from this case, although I accept it is a commonly held view.

There are two sides to every story....we only hear Arnie's side E.g. The tenants may have strongly believe that Arnie had accepted early termination. And been shocked at the withheld deposit.

There may have been words in emails like. 'i don't like this one bit, but I agree to you moving out before the full legally required notice.'


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## Leo (9 Apr 2021)

SPC100 said:


> I would be less likely to rent from a landlord who has a rtb finding against them.



And I always advise landlords to avoid any tenants who's name appears on that site also.


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## noproblem (9 Apr 2021)

Is there an online site for people who have property let out to publish stats on tenants who have a bad history, or would that be against some law or anti-someone's feelings?


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## Arnie Hammer (12 Apr 2021)

Thanks for all of the replies. I think I am going to learn a lesson and move on. At the outset of the new tenancy I told the tenants to make themselves familiar with the law when giving notice. And next time I won't hang myself the same way.




SPC100 said:


> If you are looking for another opinion on the fairness of their finding, I think you would need to share actual wording of those emails.



I have dropped enough breadcrumbs already. The emails were only about the set-up of an appointment to collect keys and inspect property. I can see why they could be read why they were by the RTB. Next time I will be more careful.



Thirsty said:


> As I believe I said back in September, who needs the hassle?
> 
> Too many hours wasted, too much emotional investment for two weeks of a deposit.



It wasn't that much hassle and no emotions were involved, on my side anyway. I had to send some evidence and explain myself in writing to the RTB. I don't think I wasted my time on this.



SPC100 said:


> I would be less likely to rent from a landlord who has a rtb finding against them.



I thought about this and am not really concerned. If a future tenant finds it off-putting then it's not a tenant I want. The RTB hasn't ordered damages which it seems to do when landlords really act the maggot.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Apr 2021)

Other posters were correct.

My God, a landlord going to the RTB seems to be like a Christian heading to the Colosseum.

What a perverse interpretation of the situation.

I remember being in Court years ago and our expert witnesses had a particular basis for analysing something. A witness for the other side had a different basis which our guys viewed as fundamentally flawed. But in Court they said, “look, we’ve tried using it anyway and it doesn’t come to that conclusion either”. The judge then said in his judgement that by using the flawed methodology at all, they validated it, and therefore that argument about it being fundamentally flawed fell away. It was an affront to commonsense.


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## SPC100 (12 Apr 2021)

Systems are sometimes Very frustrating. Hopefully most of the time the outcomes are mostly ok


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## Lockup (13 Apr 2021)

I think what is frustrating is a system that is unfair to start with and RTB is a very loaded dice


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