# Over 8 years of non payment and no repossession



## Delboy

Leo said:


> There's evidence of a significant increase in strategic default as it has become more clear that there is very little repercussions for falling behind on home loans. Go along to the repossession courts and see for yourself. There is not the same level of default for motor loans where repossession of the asset is easy and cheap. Even before I had my first job banks were trying to sell me loans and credit facilities, that was well before the tiger and credit was easy come by, so it's not like the banks just swung the doors open for a few years.






> Restaurateur Ronan Ryan and his wife, former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood, have vowed to leave their home after a 'vulture fund' moved to repossess it.
> Mr Ryan told the Irish Independent that they would be "out before the end of the spring".
> The Circuit Civil Court heard yesterday that Mr Ryan had not paid anything off his €1.1m mortgage for more than eight years...
> ...Mr Ryan said he had bought the house in 2005 for more than €900,000.
> He said the mortgage was combined with other borrowings from Bank of Scotland, leaving a total of some €1.1m on which the house was secured.
> The court heard yesterday that Bank of Scotland Ireland Ltd had granted Mr Ryan a 34-year mortgage of €1,105,000 to be paid back in monthly instalments of €4,434.
> The loan had fallen into arrears now amounting to €281,111 and the total debt outstanding to Tanager was stated to be €1,207,904....
> ...Mr Ryan told the Irish Independent he was concerned that if Tanager did not get back all the money it was owed by selling the house, it could continue to pursue him for the remainder.
> Mr Ryan used to own restaurants including Town Bar & Grill and South, but was hit financially by the 2008 recession. He currently runs a contract catering business.
> Ms Flood, a former host of 'Off The Rails' television series and several RTÉ shows, was to have presented a TV3 documentary series about older mothers, but this was shelved after Virgin Media took over the station.


8.5 yrs rent free in one of Dublin's nicest areas....nice work if you can get it!


----------



## Leo

Delboy said:


> 8.5 yrs rent free in one of Dublin's nicest areas....nice work if you can get it!



Yet they 'played ball' all the way!


----------



## Feemar5

It’s no wonder bank of Scotland left - let’s be honest people who pay their mortgage on time are subsidizing those who don’t pay.   We have to have repossessions to be fair to all.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

This case was adjourned so that both sides could make legal submissions. 

This adds insult to the injury 

"Mr Ryan(the borrower) told the Irish Independent he was concerned that if Tanager did not get back all the money it was owed by selling the house, it could continue to pursue him for the remainder." 

So he lives rent-free for over 8 years and expects not to be pursued for the shortfall. 

Brendan


----------



## Seagull

Option 1- he can repay his debts
Option 2 - he can declare bankruptcy


----------



## HollowKnight

It really is maddening when you think about it.


----------



## Delboy

And he's working so there's money coming into the house. And McGuinness/Hall/Honohan/Doherty want to stop evictions!


----------



## Steven Barrett

As with a lot of things in life, there are people who will abuse the system. While there are cases of people who are doing their best to pay their debts, there is a growing number of people who are playing the system.

The fact that 10 years after the recession, we still haven't sorted out the mortgage crises goes to show that the system is broken. From banks not being able to repossess, people living in properties rent free for 8 years to others who are trying to hang onto properties that they clearly can't afford. 

I can't see a politician making it easier for a bank to repossess a house, it would be political suicide, even if it lead to reduced interest rates for all. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


----------



## Purple

HollowKnight said:


> It really is maddening when you think about it.


What's maddening is that his case is by no means unusual.


----------



## RedOnion

Why would anyone actually pay their debts when you look at this case?

"...had given the American-owned Tanager bank an undertaking they and their children will have vacated the property by July 9 next.

In return *the bank would undertake to limit the couple’s indebtedness to whatever it could recover from the sale of the property* -- no legal costs, no repayment of €374,000 arrears they had built up since 2010 and no liability for the €1.25 million outstanding on the mortgage."


https://m.independent.ie/irish-news...any-of-1-2m-debt-on-dublin-home-37893072.html


----------



## cremeegg

SBarrett said:


> As with a lot of things in life, there are people who will abuse the system.



When the ways in which the system is open to abuse are exposed in the national newspapers, people take up the opportunities presented.

Rules to help people who get into difficulties with debt can be availed of by people who deliberately take on debt with no intention of repaying it.


----------



## noproblem

Agree that this particular case makes people very angry. The law abiding person working extremely hard and trying his/her best to pay their way and then you have the wise guy/woman who has learned how to beat or abuse the system. Yes, I've read about this case for quite a while, different financial houses have had the loan by buying and selling it on, then the person borrowing gets married and this adds further complications to the  loan, in between the Celtic tiger gets slaughtered and business's that were helping to pay the loan went belly up and the loan goes unpaid for almost 9 years and today we find out he'she get away Scot-Free. There's only so much one can say or write but it's as near to another scandal as you could get, but there was a situation created with vulture funds that has lead to all of this. Do I remember Brendan Burgess warning about it some time ago? But do the warnings get heeded?


----------



## cremeegg

noproblem said:


> but there was a situation created with vulture funds that has lead to all of this. Do I remember Brendan Burgess warning about it some time ago?



Wha ?

What makes you think they would have paid if the debt had stayed with the original lender


----------



## noproblem

Totally agree with you cremeegg, I never had a doubt at all, just made it easier for someone with that thought process to access escape routes.


----------



## Delboy

8 years mortgage/rent free folks. All you need is a brass neck and some good solicitors who are willing to play the long game on your behalf.

Ireland....the best little country in the world in which to do business


----------



## cremeegg

Delboy said:


> 8 years mortgage/rent free folks. All you need is a brass neck and some good solicitors who are willing to play the long game on your behalf.



You have to think big though, I doubt this would work as well if the amount involved was €125k rather than €1.25m.

I imagine it also helps to be good looking and telegenic. Judges cannot resist a pretty face. See Mary Archer.

And above all you have to be totally committed. No point in doing this if you have any equity in the property.


----------



## noproblem

Not to mention the wonderful education the young 'uns (their children) are getting.


----------



## Palerider

I have mediated between debtors and vultures, it is not pleasant, I have no interest in doing so ever again.

Some observations...

A. Where they have good security they hold out for full repayment.
B. They are very slow to engage with the legal process, it takes them years in most cases before they might go into Court.
C. Their business model is not working in Ireland, the legal system is cumbersome, slow and expensive, the protections for debtors in most cases such as this one allow procrastination.
D. The legal profession are the winners as are the Auctioneering houses especially those that specialise in distressed sales.

Still, this case surprised me and will frighten vultures away from this country, vultures are necessary to have a functioning banking system and this high profile case is counter productive to the needs of the country.


----------



## Tebbit

I feel like a fool to be paying my mortgage faithfully on a house that's not worth what I paid for it.


----------



## ClubMan

I was absolutely gobsmacked at the outcome of this case today but maybe I'm just naive.
This sort of arm chancing seems to go on a lot judging by a lot of the repossession court reports posted here in the past.
As others have mentioned it does make one feel like a mug for assiduously paying one's debts over the years.


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote

A prolonged non-payment period can be combined with accumulating savings in cash, especially if you are in a cash business.

Not that this happened in this case of course.


----------



## Bronte

Strategic default works if you owe enough.

Of note also is that people are ripping houses of everything and destroying them. But you won’t find articles about that. I’ve heard about it though.  A relation of mine led two banks a long messy merry dance and pocketed rent for a couple of years.

Soon I’m visiting a property the bank took back which they didn’t not know was bought by the old owner.

And I negotiated a write down for half, with interest thrown off with a credit union for another relation.  I’ve yet another tied into a personal guarantee who can’t getbout of it and is tied to a sibling for it must be 10 years now with no end in sight.

I was staying in Adare about 15 years ago and a man invited us out to his mansion on which he wasn’t paying a penny and owed millions.

This latest story doesn’t surprise me in the latest. ‘‘Twas all madness really the Celtic Tiger.


----------



## cremeegg

Bronte said:


> Of note also is that people are ripping houses of everything and destroying them. But you won’t find articles about that. I’ve heard about it though.



We were woken about 6am one morning by the noise of a truck in the house opposite. Two men were putting the outside boiler and the gates into the back of the truck.

I called the guards.

The guards sent a squad car, they called me back later to say that it wasn't a robbery it was the owners brother.

The house had been repossessed two months by then.


----------



## RETIRED2017

Bronte said:


> Strategic default works if you owe enough.
> 
> Of note also is that people are ripping houses of everything and destroying them. But you won’t find articles about that. I’ve heard about it though.  A relation of mine led two banks a long messy merry dance and pocketed rent for a couple of years.
> 
> Soon I’m visiting a property the bank took back which they didn’t not know was bought by the old owner.
> 
> And I negotiated a write down for half, with interest thrown off with a credit union for another relation.  I’ve yet another tied into a personal guarantee who can’t getbout of it and is tied to a sibling for it must be 10 years now with no end in sight.
> 
> I was staying in Adare about 15 years ago and a man invited us out to his mansion on which he wasn’t paying a penny and owed millions.
> 
> This latest story doesn’t surprise me in the latest. ‘‘Twas all madness really the Celtic Tiger.



That would be 2003/4 It did not stop the Banks Giving out large amount of money known there was already repayments problems Building up,
The Madness is back when you see the likes of KBC giving over 6 times income on joint Mortgages, if one stops working for any reason it could be 12 times income to loan,

If they mortgage holders break up or one stops paying for  hundreds of reasons the people who pay there mortgages will be picking up the tab,

 When banks lend large amount of money to  Joint mortgages holders for large family homes  ,is it fair to allow maybe one person to keep living in home, they should  down size if the cannot pay ,
all this needs to be tidied up by the Government  then we might get different result from the courts ,

The courts hands are tied because of failure to close loopholes and over lending ,

,Banks lending large amounts of money in joint names to people on homes away bigger than there needs,of up to 12 times one income ,Under the present system  are looking for trouble,


----------



## Delboy

Ronan wants to give his side of the story but there's not a lot to it by the look of things

https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...having-to-pay-1-2m-debt-on-home-37900137.html


> Speaking to Independent.ie, Mr Ryan said the story "looks horrific" when you only have one side of it.
> "It's just one side [you hear in court], it looks horrific... it looks like we sat in a house for nine years looking for a free place to live, but we were paying interest all along until we were told not to," he said...
> ...
> "Different people have had the loan over a different period of time. We would have been gone in 2011, 2013 and 2016 only for they wanted the asset to appreciate, which it has massively. Now they walk off into the sunset with the money. I have no animosity towards them but this is the fourth time we've tried to sell the house.
> "We had to pack our bags and take my pregnant wife out of the house every Saturday so people could view it the first time around but they weren't happy and wanted the asset to appreciate and we were told to remain in the house."...
> ....
> "We're looking around elsewhere. As soon as we have something else, we'll be out," he said.
> The businessman was critical of how they didn't get to give their version of events in the Circuit Civil Court.
> _When asked to give his side today, he said: "That's a bit like knocking someone down and saying afterwards I could have blown the horn."_


Sounds like they had a really tough time of it. Trying to escape from the house but each time the Vulture funds pulled them back in


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Delboy said:


> Trying to escape from the house but each time the Vulture funds pulled them back in



Brilliant. 

The vulture funds are indeed hard to resist. 

Brendan


----------



## Delboy




----------



## noproblem

Ah now lads, we have to give him some credit. He did beat the system whether he knew it or not and i'd imagine a trend might have been set. Listening to the entitled on the Ask Joe show today just makes me fairly certain of that.


----------



## ClubMan

> "It's just one side [you hear in court], it looks horrific... it looks like we sat in a house for nine years looking for a free place to live, but we were paying interest all along until we were told not to," he said.


He doesn't say who told them to stop paying the interest.



> Mr Ryan said the "real story is how a vulture fund buys a loan at a discount and sells it for three times the amount".


Yeah, right!



> "Different people have had the loan over a different period of time. We would have been gone in 2011, 2013 and 2016 only for they wanted the asset to appreciate, which it has massively. Now they walk off into the sunset with the money. I have no animosity towards them but this is the fourth time we've tried to sell the house.


Er - the same report says that there's still €1.25M outstanding, €374K in arrears and the legal costs which the lender is footing while the property is worth about €800K at the moment!

The mind boggles...


----------



## RedOnion

This gets better.

"Judge Linnane was told today that not only was the couple still in the house but Mr Ryan (48) only days ago had sought and obtained a Protective Certificate under personal insolvency legislation which meant they could not be interfered with by anyone for 70 days."

This is after the fund agreeing to wipe out their debt entirely!









						Former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood and restaurateur Ronan Ryan may face jail over failing to quit €900k home
					

Former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood and her restaurateur husband Ronan Ryan may go to prison for failing to quit their €900,000 home after having agreed to hand it back to a bank which they owed €1.2million.




					m.independent.ie


----------



## AlbacoreA

RedOnion said:


> ...
> 
> This is after the fund agreeing to wipe out their debt entirely!
> ...



Does this mean their debts are back ?


----------



## RedOnion

AlbacoreA said:


> Does this mean their debts are back ?


Sounds like jail might be next step!


----------



## Delboy

Wow...the absolute bare faced cheek of them. The deal they got, after 9 years of zero payments, including not being chased for legal fees and then they pull a stunt like this.
I shouldn't be surprised as this is Ireland but it's really hard not to be on this one


----------



## Bronte

Ryan is mad the vulture fund bought his loan low and will make a profit on selling it.

Totally omitting to say that Bank of Scotland took the hit there. Which ultimately means other borrowers, ie taxpayers take the hit in higher mortgage rates. He tries the argument that because BofS sold to a vulture there is no impact on taxpayers. Wrong Mr. Ryan, that the kind of talk we hear from the likes of Ben Gilroy and assorted others.

Also Ryan paid nothing in 9 years. Who stopped him paying. That was adding further costs to the banks, and ultimately other borrowers. He says he’s made five payments this year. And has proof. I’ll laugh if he’s paid say 300 a month for 5 months.

Then we get to the woe is me with the big bad vulture eviction on my wife and four young children. Nothing stopped him leaving and going renting like normal people who both have good incomes.


----------



## BilliamD75

He has made 5 payments in the last 5 months, I have made 5 payments in the last 5 months. He has made 5 payments in the last 108 months I have made 108 payment's in the last 108 months. He got a deal of a life time. No mortgage for 9 years, just leave the house and no additional costs incurred. He is playing the long game by starting to pay his mortgage and have the arrears recapitalised so tanager will sell the debt to a pillar bank at half the nominal value. I am no fan of tanager but I am a big fan of all the silent voices of all the men, women and children who have suffered in our country over the last 9 years making sure their debts are paid when falling due. Send in the sheriff I say.


----------



## Andrew365

Trying to play the big bad vulture fund making us homeless card........ I see in an article they say they have new lawyers and have been given new advice and aren't going anywhere. So what is their ideal outcome? My guess is they want the arrears wiped and will agree to restart payments against the amount the vulture fund paid or something similar. 

What I can't understand is that they seem to have some misguided belief that the house is rightfully theirs? Things went wrong, they stretched themselves, got caught up in the boom, its terrible but it happens.


----------



## outsomnia

They appear to have plenty of cash for the best legal advice (for them) though and there must be a lot of fees involved there. I wonder if they are getting Free Legal Aid if they have no income or something.

It is difficult not to feel angry and bitter at the way some people can or choose to play the system like this, whilst others have lost their homes for  much smaller debts. Anyway there will be more to come on this I suppose.


----------



## bleary

Poor Ronan, badly advised when taking out the mortgage, badly advised when not making any mortgage payments for 9 years, owes more than the house is worth and than the original mortgage , secured an extra 4 months by agreeing to leave and then an extra 70 days just as that was coming to an end.  That’s about 20,000 in rent he has managed to save himself.
And handily timed just as holiday season kicks in ,are civil courts open after the end of July? If it doesn’t get dealt with in the next few days does this mean he is clear until October?
Can the courts protection for 70 days be maintained considering they were extended under what appears to be  a mis representation


----------



## cremeegg

I have been reading about this with some bemusement for a while, but today I saw a photo of the house in the Indo. I thought these were formerly wealthy people, prominent restauranteur, TV personality what have you. Duh ! Its a 3/4 bed end of terrace, hardly worth all the grief.


----------



## HollowKnight

Independent.ie: 'It's like being put in the village stocks' - Pamela Flood breaks her silence on debt, critics and fighting back.








						'It's like being put in the village stocks' - Pamela Flood breaks her silence on debt, critics and fighting back
					

Pamela Flood is in fighting spirits. Facing losing the home she shares with her husband Ronan Ryan and their four young children, one thing she is certain of is that she will pay no heed to public opinion.




					www.independent.ie


----------



## Bronte

When you’re down the hole keep digging. When you go to Niamh Horan in the Sindo you’ve lost the plot completely. Such self entitlement. It’s barely believable. And the deal they got. So utterly utterly stupid not to walk away. I loved the angle that she and Ryan are fighting for the ‘little’people. For all the people ‘struggling’ like them. What struggle is it to live in a property for free for 9 years while most of the ‘little’ people struggle every month to pay their bills including their mortgage. Unbelievable cheek really. 

Any poster know are that couple earning much?


----------



## Tintagel

Seems that they are unable to cut their grass in their garden either.........oh hang on........we will probably have an article about her leaving her grass long ........for the poor bees......


----------



## Gordon Gekko

At home with Pamela Flood: ‘I am a total hoarder’
					

For the TV presenter, it’s all about the cosy – dark floors and light walls with throws and soft fabrics




					www.irishtimes.com
				




The above article should be read in conjunction with the previous ones.

- A Lacanche cooker (which Ronan “insisted on”); these appear to be hand-made in France and vary in price from €5k to €27k.
- An Anne Madden painting (Louis Le Brocquy’s wife).
- Patrick O’Reilly sculptures.

In terms of lack of self-awareness, what’s going on here is far worse than “Swing-gate” and the ill-fated Sean O’Rourke interview.

Frankly, it’s laughable, pathetic, and disgusting in equal measure.


----------



## Bronte

Tintagel said:


> Seems that they are unable to cut their grass in their garden either.........oh hang on........we will probably have an article about her leaving her grass long ........for the poor bees......


How on earth do you know about their garden? Maybe they’ve no time what with running two food restaurants and kitting out their house with top stuff.  I wonder how they juggle that with four young children. 

If I rocked up to one of their food joints and refused to pay my bill because the interest on my mortgage is higher because fighting people like them don’t bother to pay a penny on their mortgage for 9 years do you think they’d call the police to have me jailed.


----------



## noproblem

They probably would call the police but in what they're doing mortgage wise? Tells us something about them and their principals, doesn't it?


----------



## Blackrock1

they were offered a brilliant deal, i cannot understand why they didnt take it, whoever is advising them has a lot to answer for also.


----------



## cremeegg

Bronte said:


> And the deal they got. So utterly utterly stupid not to walk away.



So far brass neck has served them well. People tend to keep doing what works.

It will be interesting to see if they have gone too far or if their brass neck has earned them another two months, at least, rent free.

My guess is the latter.


----------



## Delboy

Blackrock1 said:


> they were offered a brilliant deal, i cannot understand why they didnt take it, whoever is advising them has a lot to answer for also.


Ross Maguire has recently got involved with them according to the report in the papers last week


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Gordon Gekko said:


> At home with Pamela Flood: ‘I am a total hoarder’
> The above article should be read in conjunction with the previous ones.
> 
> - A Lacanche cooker (which Ronan “insisted on”); these appear to be hand-made in France and vary in price from €5k to €27k.
> - An Anne Madden painting (Louis Le Brocquy’s wife).
> - Patrick O’Reilly sculptures.



That is just astonishing! 

If a lender had told me that he had customers refusing to pay their mortgage but buying top of the range cookers and art, I wouldn't have believed him.

Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess

cremeegg said:


> It will be interesting to see if they have gone too far or if their brass neck has earned them another two months, at least, rent free.



With any luck, they will get a long spell of rent-free accommodation.









						Former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood and her husband may face jail for failing to leave €900k home
					

Former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood and her restaurateur husband Ronan Ryan may go to prison for failing to quit their €900,000 home after having agreed to hand it back to a bank to which they owed €1.2m.




					www.irishexaminer.com
				




_The judge granted barrister Rudi Neuman, counsel for Tanager Bank, leave to seek short service of an application to attach and commit both of them to jail for breaching a personal undertaking and court order under which they would be out of the house by last Tuesday, July 9._


----------



## Bronte

Gordon Gekko said:


> - A Lacanche cooker (which Ronan “insisted on”); these appear to be hand-made in France and vary in price from €5k to €27k.
> -



It must be the top end cooker because the article states it's the same one as is in the restaurant.


----------



## Bronte

cremeegg said:


> So far brass neck has served them well. People tend to keep doing what works.
> 
> It will be interesting to see if they have gone too far or if their brass neck has earned them another two months, at least, rent free.
> 
> My guess is the latter.



Did Pamela ever wonder was it 'illegal or immoral' to not pay her suppliers similar to her belief in not paying the mortgage.


----------



## Bronte

Brendan Burgess said:


> That is just astonishing!
> 
> If a lender had told me that he had customers refusing to pay their mortgage but buying top of the range cookers and art, I wouldn't have believed him.
> 
> Brendan


Of course the art and cooker will have been paid for by Pamela, who does not pay rent, or anything towards the mortgage - she acquiring property rights as a spouse, but not being liable for her husband's mortgage.  So all 'assets' will be her's.  And that cooker and art will be leaving the property you can be sure when they eventually vacate it.


----------



## Baby boomer

Ironic that the Anne Madden painting is titled "Icarus" - wasn't he the one who flew too close to the sun and his wings melted causing him to fall to Earth?  

Perfect Celtic Tiger allegory!


----------



## noproblem

Baby boomer said:


> Ironic that the Anne Madden painting is titled "Icarus" - wasn't he the one who flew too close to the sun and his wings melted causing him to fall to Earth?
> 
> Perfect Celtic Tiger allegory!



Very good, also a bit ironic that the wings were artificial.


----------



## HollowKnight

'Pamela was being rushed to surgery while they were setting up viewings' - restaurateur Ronan Ryan on battle to keep €900k home
					

Ronan Ryan has opened up about the struggle he and his wife, former RTE presenter Pamela Flood, faced over nine years as vulture funds attempted to sell their family home.




					www.independent.ie
				




Woe is me


----------



## Delboy

HollowKnight said:


> 'Pamela was being rushed to surgery while they were setting up viewings' - restaurateur Ronan Ryan on battle to keep €900k home
> 
> 
> Ronan Ryan has opened up about the struggle he and his wife, former RTE presenter Pamela Flood, faced over nine years as vulture funds attempted to sell their family home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.ie
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Woe is me


Is Maguire effectively advocating strategic default?



> On advice from New Beginning, whose founder Ross Maguire is advising the couple, Ross and Pamela have vowed to stay in their €900,000 home, insisting they intend to fight back against the vulture fund seeking to repossess it.
> Mr Ryan recently obtained a protective certificate under personal insolvency legislation which means they can not be interfered with by anyone for 70 days."..
> 
> "Meanwhile Ross Maguire, adviser to Mr Ryan, said any anger levelled at the couple has been misdirected.
> "I understand people being angry when it looks as though people are deliberately not paying their mortgage. I think that creates a justifiable anger," he said.
> "But when you look at the actual situation - and this would apply in many cases where the person believes 'I am goosed, I am going to lose this house' - if that is the case, if you believe you have lost your house then, leave out the morality of it, it doesn't make any commercial sense to make payments because you are losing the house anyway.
> "So in the case of Ronan and Pamela - where the bank or the funds say 'listen, give us back the house and we will write off the debt', then it doesn't make any sense to make payments because why would you make payments against a debt that has been effectively written off? You might as well take your cash and throw it into the river Liffey. It's gone. You'd be wasting it."


----------



## HollowKnight

It certainly reads that way to me!


----------



## MrEarl

Hello,

Right or wrong, it seems like the press and media are supporting this pair of fraudsters.

If there's any justice in the world, they should be evicted and forced to sell a significant part of their household assets etc with proceeds put against the debt.

I know the house where they live, it's probably worth €800k - €1m due to the road that its on etc. There is no need for them to live there whatsoever.

Long past time that the politicians also criticised the legal system for how this is handled.


----------



## noproblem

The media and certain so called journalistic friends in it might think they're helping this pair but the Irish public aren't so gullible anymore. There are lots of unfortunate house buyers in this country, some have been hit extremely hard but this particular couple are an example of poor me, help, help, help, i'm sooo different, you don't understand, do you know who we awr? but paying back debt is not in their vocabulary. This is the very thing that gets everyone so angry here in Ireland, I hope an example is made of them and all within the full enforcement of legal protocols. For once it will set the right and proper example.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Delboy said:


> Is Maguire effectively advocating strategic default?



I wondered about that myself.

Forget about the current case for the moment.   You have a family. Your lender has got an order for possession of your family home with a stay of 6 months and you are in deep negative equity.  Do you pay your mortgage in the meantime, or do you save up your money to pay the deposit required when you are renting?

I certainly would not criticise anyone for not paying their mortgage in this situation. 

Likewise, if you are planning on applying for a PIA, you should probably build up a fund to pay for it. 

You are in mortgage arrears and facing legal action for possession. I would strongly advise anyone facing this situation that they should pay what they can.  The more you pay, the longer you will get to stay in your home.

The problem is the legal system we have which does not allow lenders to repossess a home when the borrower pays nothing at all for 8 years. The lenders could not get an order for possession in this case, for whatever reason. Then they got an order and the guy agreed to move out and then applied for a PIA and did not move out.

People will naturally exploit any weaknesses in the system.  The government, Central Bank and the Courts Service should look at the system and fix it so that people who pay nothing are out within about 6 to 12 months.

Brendan


----------



## Delboy

To be honest, if I was about to lose my house in a few months I'd probably stop paying too (I would presume my credit record was shot to pieces at that stage so it wouldn't be a concern not paying the mortgage for a while).
But I'd not be expecting to still be in the house 8 years later having paid nothing in the meantime. I'd not expect to be there in even 8 months time!


----------



## LS400

noproblem said:


> I hope an example is made of them and all within the full enforcement of legal protocols. For once it will set the right and proper example.



What ever they have managed to get away with, so far, they done deserve this blood thirsty ripping apart from key board warriors. They are exploiting the legal system in this country, because its there to be exploited.

It sickens me too, that this goes on day in day out in court, and no one seem to be able to call a halt to this absolute pathetic abuse of a dysfunctional system, and the more you frustrate it, the better it seems for you .

Dont have a go at the people, have a go at the system.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

LS400 said:


> Dont have a go at the people, have a go at the system.




If someone lodges money into my bank account by mistake, it's ok for me to tell my bank not to return it and to not tell them who I am?

That is the system. I should profit by it? 

Brendan


----------



## LS400

Apples and oranges there Brendan,

You are mixing up a genuine mistake with a system that promotes legal abuse.

No one likes to see the abuse of the system, but, If my family were in such limbo, and while I would consider myself to have a pretty good moral compass, I too would look to protect what I can for as long as I can, given that the ridiculous legal profession allows for such shenanigans to play out in our courts every day.

Hence, I dont like to see people persecuted for playing with a dysfunctional legal system. Its been set up to be abused, yet most are not aware unless you have the money to hire a skill set to abuse it.  Change the flamin system by all means, and you can be sure you  wont see these charades taking place, and there is no other word than charades, although, you wont get many votes from the legal profession to do this, they are absolutely loving this the longer it goes on.


----------



## noproblem

LS400,
you do whatever it is you want to do but there's right and wrong, regardless of "the system". Don't for one minute tell me those guys are the good guys and NO, I don't consider myself a keyboard warrior. Very easy for some to make assumptions, but when you go mortgage free for 8 years and get called to order you don't go calling your mates in the media to raise sympathy for your new born and the circumstances you find yourself in because of a choice you made. You might like to blame it on the system, I don't and for very good and obvious reasons.


----------



## Delboy

*Restaurateur wins first round in battle to retain Dublin home*
*Judge rules against fund’s court bid to set aside cert protecting Ronan Ryan from debts*









						Restaurateur wins first round in battle to retain Dublin home
					

Judge rules against fund’s court bid to set aside cert protecting Ronan Ryan from debts




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## HollowKnight

So if his debt doesn't accrue any further interest (it will), then he can pay off in full his debts in 27 years at his current rate of pay (he would be 75 by then). I imagine there's somewhere to rent if he can afford €3700 a month.


----------



## LS400

@ Noproblem,
That's exactly it. We have a system that allows you not to pay you mortgage for 8 years and counting, and yet still you frustrate the system. 

What your doing is blaming the kid for toddling out of the open crèche instead of the keepers of the crèche. Much easier target.

This will be like Groundhog Day where folk will blame the kids for years to come. Channel your energy into changing an utterly broken system, for it suits legislators when they can be absolved of any wrong doing here.


----------



## noproblem

Oh dear, whatever happened to trust and decent people. There's no system totally foolproof if you have people like that and it doesn't make any difference what walk of life that it's in.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

LS400 said:


> We have a system that allows you not to pay you mortgage for 8 years and counting, and yet still you frustrate the system.





LS400 said:


> What your doing is blaming the kid for toddling out of the open crèche instead of the keepers of the crèche. Much easier target.





LS400 said:


> Apples and oranges there Brendan,


----------



## MrEarl

Delboy said:


> *Restaurateur wins first round in battle to retain Dublin home*
> *Judge rules against fund’s court bid to set aside cert protecting Ronan Ryan from debts*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Restaurateur wins first round in battle to retain Dublin home
> 
> 
> Judge rules against fund’s court bid to set aside cert protecting Ronan Ryan from debts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.irishtimes.com





> He described the Clontarf house as “very modest and normal” and that its value was only high “due to the location as distinct to the property being a trophy home.”



That's not entirely true. It's a bit more than a modest and normal house, although the location does play a notable part in its value.

He could accomodate his family in a somewhat smaller house, in another area, no problem. 

So, why not downsize and then make regular repayments - the downsizing would generate some cash to reduce the debt, then his €3,700pm would make a greater impact on his overdue debt?


----------



## cremeegg

MrEarl said:


> So, why not downsize and then make regular repayments - the downsizing would generate some cash to reduce the debt, then his €3,700pm would make a greater impact on his overdue debt?



Why should he move to a smaller, less well located house when he doesn't have to.

I agree with previous posters, the failing here is in the legislation and its enforcement.

The question is why hasn't he been evicted.


----------



## elcato

MrEarl said:


> So, why not downsize and then make regular repayments - the downsizing would generate some cash to reduce the debt, then his €3,700pm would make a greater impact on his overdue debt?


The sale of the house will go towards paying down the 1.2 million owed so there's no equity left for the poor chap.


----------



## LS400

cremeegg said:


> The question is why hasn't he been evicted




And that simple 8 word line is the Nub of the issue.  Why would you vacate when you dont really have to. Would anyone really want to downsize when you can drag this episode out for years to come, and take advantage of a weak "system", and then downsize.


----------



## noproblem

LS400 said:


> And that simple 8 word line is the Nub of the issue.  Why would you vacate when you dont really have to. Would anyone really want to downsize when you can drag this episode out for years to come, and take advantage of a weak "system", and then downsize.


One could also call them squatters, wouldn't like them beside me.  With their record i'm guessing they might find it difficult to avail of social housing. Be interesting though to find out what will happen next


----------



## LS400

noproblem said:


> With their record i'm guessing they might find it difficult to avail of social housing. Be interesting though to find out what will happen next



Hmmm,
A certain individual may rock on up to the door with some iCare leaflets..


----------



## Brendan Burgess

They would not qualify for social housing, so they would not qualify for MTR.

But they both have good jobs so they can easily afford to rent a modest house somewhere.

They will not be homeless.

Brendan


----------



## iamaspinner

I cannot imagine living with that level of stress for years, going to bed and waking up every day waiting for the postman to deliver registered letters, summonses, etc., or getting a fright every time the phone rings thinking it could be your solicitor or worse. That added to the normal pressures of life itself like starting and raising a family? No, thanks!!

But I suppose some people can compartmentalise better and grow thicker skin than others...


----------



## Andrew365

I think a key item is when would they have been able to start repaying 3,700 as I assume it is not just this month out of the blue. Setting aside difficulty in getting a mortgage due to the current situation, that their current levels of income and the deposit they have would not allow them to buy a similar property. Evident in comments from the article about rent is that they fear that if they have to rent they won't be able to save more of a deposit to buy a similar house. 

In general my assessment of the current strategy is
1. Vulture fund wants to sell house and get the cash upfront and move on. It won't have the infrastructure or part of their business plan to accept a monthly repayment and small lumpsum. 
2. Ronans strategy is to now show he can start repayments monthly and is willing to resolve the issue. They will then try and through the courts(?) force vulture fund to accept the proposal? 

Thoughts?

I have to admit I would fight tooth and nail as well to keep it.


----------



## Clamball

I suppose Andrew365 my question is why you think they need to buy a similar property, surely all they need and hopefully can afford is to rent a small house/apartment.  I think they have demonstrated they cannot afford to purchase a property at all.


----------



## MrEarl

Lots of families (of six people, incl. four children) manage just fine living in a house that isn't in Clontarf.

If there's any justice in this world, these guys need to be put out of the house, and prosecuted for the full amount due.  

They've enjoyed a great life in a fine house rent free for over eight years, while many other struggled to pay their mortgage, or being unable to pay, had to sell or surrender their homes.  That's just wrong ..... I'm not saying that people shouldn't be given time to resolve issues, or help when it's needed, but _Ronan has extracted the michael big time_.


----------



## Gordon Gekko

Spot on Mr Earl. The pitchfork wielding morons will target their ire at the so-called “vulture fund” but in reality the true villains are the borrowers. The behaviour of people like them is a key input into the high mortgage rates suffered by the rest of us.


----------



## Andrew365

Clamball said:


> I suppose Andrew365 my question is why you think they need to buy a similar property, surely all they need and hopefully can afford is to rent a small house/apartment.  I think they have demonstrated they cannot afford to purchase a property at all.



I don't but I believe they do think that. They offered to pay 3,700 a month and a lump sum of 80k, so I think that shows they can afford property not just in the area. I think more so that they would struggle to find a bank that would give them another mortgage. 

If being offered to walk away from the debt and the house and with jail time and option as they've turned it down they must believe that they are going to win and keep the house.

My opinion is they will try and get a judge to rule that the fund has to accept their offer of monthly repayments.


----------



## Sarenco

Jerry Beades (remember him?) loses Supreme Court appeal against €9.6m High Court judgement.

The judgement relates to loans that have been in default for over a decade.  Even by Irish standards that must be some kind of record.









						Supreme Court dismisses appeal by Jerry Beades against €9.6m judgment
					

High Court was correct to find in 2012 that businessman had no arguable defence to summary judgment




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Delboy

Lets see how immediate 'immediate possession' really is...








						'Deliberate attempt to obstruct court order' - Judge rules vulture fund can 'immediately' take Ronan Ryan and Pamela Flood's home
					

There was a deliberate move by former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood’s husband Ronan Ryan to frustrate and obstruct the implementation of a court order handing their home back to a vulture fund, a judge stated today.




					www.independent.ie
				





> There was a deliberate move by former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood’s husband Ronan Ryan to frustrate and obstruct the implementation of a court order handing their home back to a vulture fund, a judge stated today.
> Judge Jacqueline Linnane added that there was also a conscious decision by him not to disclose in separate insolvency proceedings the existence of a consent court order granting Tanager fund possession of the couple’s home.
> She granted Tanager leave to execute the consent order for possession made on March 8 last against Ryan.  The insolvency proceedings did not involve Ms Flood who remains under an obligation to immediately vacate her family home at 136 Mount Prospect Avenue, Clontarf, Dublin 3 with Ryan and their four children.
> Judge Linnane’s judgment means that Tanager, through the Sheriff, can, should it wish to do so, take immediate possession of the property and put the family on the street.


----------



## noproblem

Be interesting to see what happens now, or is it too late for  a Genei to suddenly jump out of a magic lamp?


----------



## Seagull

Given that all costs were awarded against them, I'd guess quite possibly another visit to bankruptcy court.


----------



## Steven Barrett

Seagull said:


> Given that all costs were awarded against them, I'd guess quite possibly another visit to bankruptcy court.






> Tanager had agreed to limit the debt to the net proceeds of sale of the house, effectively writing off more than €300,000 with no order as to costs.



Can't see how they were ever going to repay the amount owed anyway. They owe Tanger €1.25. Ryan is 49 in September, so the longest he has to pay off the debt is 21 years. Taking off the €80,000 lump sum he said he would pay, that's €6,250 at 3% per annum. Given they haven't made any repayments, have 4 kids and a new business, I find it very unlikely that they are going to meet their obligations. 

Not making any payments for so long while thousands more struggled through the lean times means they will get very little sympathy from the public. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


----------



## Luternau

Was it not that the house was being repossessed with approximate value of 900k, and Tanninger was not going to seek the shortfall of some 300k? No liability for the €1.25m?
Having lived mortgage free for so long while seeming to enjoy the trappings of a good lifestyle, they decided they could get a better deal through the insolvency system. It looks to have backfired in a very public way.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Has he lost anything by trying the insolvency route? 

There is a good chance that they will appeal the Circuit Court's decision and the High Court might decide that he is protected by the legislation.

Of course, they might also uphold the Circuit Court's decision that he was abusing the system.  

But he hasn't lost anything.  

Brendan


----------



## ClubMan

SBarrett said:


> Not making any payments for so long while thousands more struggled through the lean times means they will get very little sympathy from the public.


You'd think - but you might be surprised with the stupidity of some people when it comes to the banks...
What the hell are Ross Maguire/New Beginnings doing getting involved in a pathological case like this?
And (how) are they being paid?


----------



## Dazzler123

Brendan Burgess said:


> Has he lost anything by trying the insolvency route?
> 
> There is a good chance that they will appeal the Circuit Court's decision and the High Court might decide that he is protected by the legislation.
> 
> Of course, they might also uphold the Circuit Court's decision that he was abusing the system.
> 
> But he hasn't lost anything.
> 
> Brendan


Theres no real cost to them appealingto the high court and they will get another year without payments.  Then they can go to the court of appeal for another year or two. Bit of a joke


----------



## Dazzler123

ClubMan said:


> You'd think - but you might be surprised with the stupidity of some people when it comes to the banks...
> What the hell are Ross Maguire/New Beginnings doing getting involved in a pathological case like this?
> And (how) are they being paid?



Well if you dont pay your mortgage that frees up some income to pay the lawyers....


----------



## Trisha

So where is all this money coming from for these appeals? - in my opinion they should be put out on the street. Sorry, I've no sympathy for them when I think of all the folk struggling to pay their mortgages. They're left to their own devices now.
Correction: They have three kids, not four - Zach, Ronan's eldest is from a previous relationship - spends half the time with them apparently. 
On eviction...he could go back to his mother's place.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

ClubMan said:


> What the hell are Ross Maguire/New Beginnings doing getting involved in a pathological case like this?



It's a good question but I think that barristers are supposed to put their clients' cases forward as best they can.   They don't have to believe in their client's case and they don't have to like the client. 

I would have thought that this issue of whether or not a Protective Certificate trumps a Circuit Court order for possession is worth airing in the High Court. 

The High Court judge "reluctantly" granted a stay so that it could be appealed to the High Court. 

The Barrister is doing his job. 

The guy has lived rent-free for 9 years. He probably has plenty of money to pay legal fees. 

If we as a Society allow a system where someone can live in their home for years without paying and without being repossessed, don't blame the barristers who advocate on behalf of their clients. 

Brendan


----------



## Bronte

Ronan Ryan and Pamela Flood granted short service to seek stay against repossession order
					

The couple will next Thursday renew their application in front of another judge.




					www.thejournal.ie
				




Fantastic legal shenanigans going on:

Judge Linnane said that the granting of the Protective Certificate had resulted in the implementation of the consent order made by the court being frustrated and undermined.

She said there had been a deliberate move by Ryan to frustrate and obstruct the implementation of the order and a conscious decision by him not to disclose to the insolvency judge the existence of the consent order.

Ryan, in an affidavit, told Judge Stewart today that Judge Linnane had based her determination on a finding that the insolvency legislation had not been enacted to afford protection to a debtor who had made no mortgage for almost nine years and who had made a complete turn-around without disclosing relevant material facts.


----------



## Bronte

Dazzler123 said:


> Theres no real cost to them appealingto the high court and they will get another year without payments.  Then they can go to the court of appeal for another year or two. Bit of a joke


At that rate if he's saving money away he'll have enough to buy a house in cash eventually.


----------



## Conan

We regularly hear complaints about the mortgage interest rates in Ireland and how much higher they are compared to the rest of the EU. However the two recent high profile cases demonstrate the difficult of enforcing mortgage contracts even when a client pays nothing for 9 years. Re-possessions seem like an alien concept to the Courts even in clear cut cases. The concept that borrowers are expected to repay borrowings seems now to be questionable. How much more cost does that impose on compliant mortgage payers if rates are inflated to cover those who are non-compliant?


----------



## ClubMan

*Ronan Ryan and Pamela Flood get three weeks longer in their home after judge's order*


----------



## ClubMan

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's a good question but I think that barristers are supposed to put their clients' cases forward as best they can.   They don't have to believe in their client's case and they don't have to like the client.
> 
> I would have thought that this issue of whether or not a Protective Certificate trumps a Circuit Court order for possession is worth airing in the High Court.
> 
> The High Court judge "reluctantly" granted a stay so that it could be appealed to the High Court.
> 
> The Barrister is doing his job.
> 
> The guy has lived rent-free for 9 years. He probably has plenty of money to pay legal fees.
> 
> If we as a Society allow a system where someone can live in their home for years without paying and without being repossessed, don't blame the barristers who advocate on behalf of their clients.
> 
> Brendan


Fair points but I would imagine that it taints New Beginning's reputation in the eyes of some people whether that's fair or not.
On the other hand there's probably a significant cohort that thinks that this is *exactly* what organisations such as NB should be doing...


----------



## Delboy

Conan said:


> We regularly hear complaints about the mortgage interest rates in Ireland and how much higher they are compared to the rest of the EU. However the two recent high profile cases demonstrate the difficult of enforcing mortgage contracts even when a client pays nothing for 9 years. Re-possessions seem like an alien concept to the Courts even in clear cut cases. The concept that borrowers are expected to repay borrowings seems now to be questionable. How much more cost does that impose on compliant mortgage payers if rates are inflated to cover those who are non-compliant?


Brendan was making this very point on the radio yesterday while discussing the McNamara case with Michael Dowling, a mortgage broker AND a PIP! 
Michael had very weak comebacks to the points being made


----------



## Bronte

Delboy which show was that?

I love the judge ordering them to make the mortgage payment.  I wonder will they, like what would be the point.  Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.


----------



## cremeegg

ClubMan said:


> *Ronan Ryan and Pamela Flood get three weeks longer in their home after judge's order*



It would appear that the three weeks referred to is until the next court hearing. Not three weeks until they must leave the house. So on it goes.


----------



## cremeegg

Bronte said:


> Delboy which show was that?
> 
> I love the judge ordering them to make the mortgage payment.  I wonder will they, like what would be the point.  Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.



Well failing to obey a judge's order can have you jailed for contempt.

Ignoring your responsibilities under a contract seems to be penalty free, but judges look on your obligations to the court in a very different light, maybe.


----------



## Delboy

Bronte said:


> Delboy which show was that?
> 
> I love the judge ordering them to make the mortgage payment.  I wonder will they, like what would be the point.  Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.


The Last Word if I recall correctly. Around 5.30pm


----------



## Bronte

cremeegg said:


> Well failing to obey a judge's order can have you jailed for contempt.
> 
> Ignoring your responsibilities under a contract seems to be penalty free, but judges look on your obligations to the court in a very different light, maybe.


You think he’ll be jailed if he doesn’t make the repayment. LOL I think that’s highly unlikely. Me, I’ve the popcorn in for the 2nd Sept. because I can’t even begin to imagine what new level of insanity in our courts will prevail.

Maybe one of them will be sick and there will be a further extension. Watch this space.


----------



## cremeegg

Bronte said:


> Maybe one if them will be sick and there will be a further extension.


----------



## Bronte

cremeegg said:


>


Well you wanna bet me a fiver!


----------



## cremeegg

Your on !


----------



## MrEarl

This thread should be made a sticky and re-named "How to live in a nice house for a decade, for free"

Simply following the steps taken by Ronan and his good lady has to be the best money saving advice on this website !

I'm furious to see this nonsense continuing through the courts.  Ronan should be in prison (cooking for his fellow inmates)


----------



## Bronte

cremeegg said:


> Your on !


Didn't see your reply till now.  It's three weeks tomorrow. LOL.


----------



## Bronte

Well now Creme Egg an extension yesterday until 7th October.  What will happen then  !









						Restaurateur Ronan Ryan: ‘I had agreement not to repay €1.2m mortgage debt to bank’
					

High-profile restaurateur Ronan Ryan has said the reason he did not make repayments for several years on his €1.2m mortgage debt was that none were required under an agreement he entered into to sell the home that he shares with his wife, former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood.




					www.independent.ie
				




_After hearing from both sides, Mr Justice Garrett Simons said he would give judgment on the appeal on October 7. He continued a stay on Tanager executing the possession order until then.

“This is a difficult case. I need time to consider the submissions of both parties,” he said._


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Ronan Ryan appears to be a victim of the professions 

_He also said Mr Ryan had never heard of the personal insolvency regime when he consented to the possession order. “He had never heard of personal insolvency. His accountant hadn’t told him. His [then] solicitors, his legal advisors, hadn’t told him. And he didn’t know it was an option,” said Mr Farry._ 

And his Personal Insolvency Practitioner who applied for the Protective Cert did not know that this client had consented to an order for possession. 

It's a mad world out there. 

Brendan


----------



## luckystar

Brendan Burgess said:


> Ronan Ryan appears to be a victim of the professions
> 
> _He also said Mr Ryan had never heard of the personal insolvency regime when he consented to the possession order. “He had never heard of personal insolvency. His accountant hadn’t told him. His [then] solicitors, his legal advisors, hadn’t told him. And he didn’t know it was an option,” said Mr Farry._
> 
> And his Personal Insolvency Practitioner who applied for the Protective Cert did not know that this client had consented to an order for possession.
> 
> It's a mad world out there.
> 
> Brendan




I presume you're not believing this rouse for a second?! He's a smart man. And has played every card in the deck so far. Why not this one


----------



## luckystar

Furthermore he should sue the 'professionals'....


----------



## Bronte

Brendan Burgess said:


> It's a mad world out there.



None of this was before March of this year, when he suddently started repaying the mortgage monthly.  AFTER Tanager said in court he had not paid anything in 9 years in order to justify them getting a possession order.   

Personally I don't understand why the judge wants to know what Tanager paid for Ryan's loan.  Why is that in any way relevant.  And I'd have thought it was commercially sensitive. That Tanager do not want to reveal how much they are willing to pay.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

luckystar said:


> I presume you're not believing this rouse for a second?!



Hi lucky

It's actually plausible.  I discussed this case with a PIP some time ago and he said that Ryan had been very badly advised. 

A good PIP would have applied for a PIA as soon as the legislation which gave the courts the power to impose them on people came in. 

He would have had his mortgage written down to the value of the property just as the Macnamaras had. 






						The McNamara/Lowe case shows that the courts are imposing too lenient PIAs on lenders
					

Warning: This is a very long thread.   I have long argued that we have the best protected borrowers in the World.  And I have also argued that we should protect genuine borrowers who are in arrears. I have found some of the reports on the PIAs imposed by the court disturbing in that they seem...



					www.askaboutmoney.com
				




I am not excusing the Ryan's behaviour.  I think it's disgraceful that the lender can't get the property and I think it's disgraceful that the courts can write down the value of a mortgage and leave the person in a very valuable home.  But I live in a democracy and the government we elected passed this legislation.

Brendan


----------



## noproblem

Is this happening with lesser known people and far cheaper properties as well?


----------



## Brendan Burgess

noproblem said:


> Is this happening with lesser known people and far cheaper properties as well?



Absolutely. 

There has been some suggestion that people are getting deals because they are well known.   The only reason we hear about these particular deals is because the people are "celebrities".  Most people are not interested in Joe Bloggs getting a write down from €500k to €300k. 

Brendan


----------



## Steven Barrett

Brendan Burgess said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> There has been some suggestion that people are getting deals because they are well known.   The only reason we hear about these particular deals is because the people are "celebrities".  Most people are not interested in Joe Bloggs getting a write down from €500k to €300k.
> 
> Brendan




I went to a talk 5/6 years ago hosted by a number of PIPS. They said back then that the amount written down by the banks was never an issue. But, you had to give them something, which was honestly filling out the cost of living questionnaire and having your disposable income cut back to the bone for 6 years. 

The problem is, there's too many people who want to continue to live in a house they can't afford AND live the life they want. Not going on a holiday, no Sky Sports, no luxuries etc for 6 years will be hard but you'll have hundreds of thousands in debt wiped out and can start living your life again. 

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


----------



## noproblem

A great country we live in, long may it continue. I am joking but not laughing.


----------



## Delboy

Power to the People 









						Court rules in favour of Ronan Ryan in ongoing battle over home with vulture fund
					

High-profile restaurateur Ronan Ryan has won a significant legal victory in his ongoing battle to hold on to the house he shares with his wife, former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood.




					www.independent.ie
				





> High-profile restaurateur Ronan Ryan has won a significant legal victory in his ongoing battle to hold on to the house he shares with his wife, former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood.
> A High Court ruling on Monday means a vulture fund cannot enforce an order for possession of their home in Clontarf, Dublin over a €1.2m mortgage debt.
> While the Tanager fund has a further court appeal - which is due to be heard later this year - the ruling by Mr Justice Garrett Simons provides the celebrity couple with some breathing space and means they no longer face an immediate threat of repossession.
> It will also remove an obstacle to Mr Ryan seeking court approval for a personal insolvency arrangement, under which it is proposed that some €634,000 of his overall debts of €1.6m be written off.


----------



## Conan

Power to the people who don’t pay their debts


----------



## noproblem

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs in this I'd love to know what will happen if they do get a huge amount written off and somehow pay off the debt in a shortish time. Can they sell the property and pocket the gain?


----------



## cremeegg

Bronte said:


> Well you wanna bet me a fiver!



Bronte, I owe you a fiver.

Unbelievable stuff.


----------



## Seagull

Today's piece in the indo is incredibly biased. Reading it, you'd swear Ryan was a saint, who was being harshly treated by Tanager.


----------



## Delboy

Seagull, you better not read the Irish Times today so!

Vinny paints the Flood's as heroes in this saga who have done wider society a great good. He gives himself a clap on the back, has a dig at his mortgage bailout rival (David Hall) and also puts in a good word for the current Govt....it reads as a job application for the Greens to go in as FG's coalition partners next year!









						Ronan Ryan and Pamela Flood’s legal win shows strength of insolvency system
					

High Court ruling on family home a milestone in Irish insolvency legislation




					www.irishtimes.com
				




The comments on the article aren't nice reading for Vinny though. I hope it doesn't ruin his vegan salad lunch


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote

That article should come with a blood pressure warning.


----------



## Delboy

Tanager have to pay the legal fees for both sides from the recent cases








						Vulture fund Tanager must pay legal bill of up to €100k in battle over Ronan Ryan's Clontarf house
					

High-profile restaurateur Ronan Ryan, husband of television presenter and former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood, has secured a further victory over a vulture fund in his battle to hold on to their family home.




					www.independent.ie
				





> A High Court ruling means Tanager DAC must pay all of the legal costs arising from recent Circuit and High Court proceedings connected to its efforts to repossess their Dublin home. The costs have yet to be quantified, but could reach €100,000 following a series of hearings during the court’s summer holiday period. ...
> ....
> Usually when a party loses a case, it must cover its own costs and those of the winning side. However, Tanager’s counsel Rudi Neuman argued on four grounds there should be no costs order, which would mean each side would have to pick up their own legal bill.
> He claimed the appeal represented a “test case” and that special costs rules should be applied. He also argued it would be unjust to make a costs order in favour of Mr Ryan when he owed a substantial sum in mortgage arrears to Tanager, and that the court should have cognisance of the fact he breached his duty of disclosure.
> In response, Mr Ryan’s counsel Keith Farry submitted that the ordinary rules on costs should apply.
> In a written ruling Mr Justice Simons rejected the points raised by Tanager.
> He also criticised the fund’s refusal to agree to a stay on the repossession order, which meant an application for a stay had to be brought to the High Court in August, a month when generally only urgent matters are heard.


----------



## Metatron

Delboy said:


> Tanager hav to pay the legal fees for both sides from the recent cases
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vulture fund Tanager must pay legal bill of up to €100k in battle over Ronan Ryan's Clontarf house
> 
> 
> High-profile restaurateur Ronan Ryan, husband of television presenter and former Miss Ireland Pamela Flood, has secured a further victory over a vulture fund in his battle to hold on to their family home.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.ie



Maybe that’s why Tanager DAC have just agreed to sell their Mortgages to Pepper.


----------



## Amber's

Where did you here that?


----------



## Metatron

Amber's said:


> Where did you here that?


My friend got a letter from Tanager


----------



## Lockup

'Sale agreed' for €735,000 on Pamela Flood and Ronan Ryan's family home after long legal dispute
					

The end is finally in sight for the long-running legal saga involving Pamela Flood and Ronan Ryan's family home in Dublin's Clontarf.




					www.independent.ie


----------



## Sadim

Lockup said:


> 'Sale agreed' for €735,000 on Pamela Flood and Ronan Ryan's family home after long legal dispute



Can we really be surprised there is no competition in the Irish mortgage market? Like, you enter a legal contract promising to repay. You then don't repay and there are zero consequences. I am not a huge fan of the banks (in fact, I despise them) but there is a moral hazard in these sort of cases. I have paid my mortgage for the last 20 years and now thankfully I have about 18 months to go before it is finished. It is tough this year with my daughter going to college but that case, and others like it, make me out to be a mug.


----------



## MrEarl

That case makes me mad, every time I think about it, or see it mentioned.

Our legal system makes fools of those who work hard, to repay their loans...

What odds that the sale doesn't complete, and they drag this out for another 12-18 months, without paying a bean?


----------



## NoRegretsCoyote

You can make and lose lots of money very quickly in the restaurant business, which is why bank finance (if you can even get it) is expensive.

But if you can stop and start paying your mortgage whenever you like it's very handy when you have start-up costs like with a new restaurant.

A large mortgage in Ireland is a very cheap overdraft.


----------



## MrEarl

It's that, plus more, in this instance - it's living rent and mortgage free!!!


----------

