# Defaulting on mortgage



## Palabra

I read with interest the previous posts re “defaulting on mortgage” (ecstatic) 

I’m in a somewhat similar frame of mind. 

I’m 54 now. I bought a house in 2007 for 310K. I got a mortgage of 280K. My thinking at the time was if the worst comes to the worst, I can always sell it and at least get my money back. Remember I’m in my 50s. All of my adult life the sensible thing to do was to buy property.

I now find myself in a position where a bank expects me to spend the next 16 years of my life (if I live that long) helping to clean up a mess that they created? Let’s be clear about it. These people are responsible for this mess. All I did was buy a house.

Why should I (and many more like me) have to pay for the reckless, irresponsible, greedy even criminal behaviour of the lending institutions? While at the same time the government (read taxpayer) bales them out.

I can just afford to pay my mortgage, but my thinking more and more is why the hell I should I? My belief is that it’s going to take a generation for this mess to sort itself out. I don’t have the time to wait for prices to come back. I’m never even going to break even on this house.

I’ve taken my hit on this house. Between the deposit, fees, furnishings, extra mortgage payments it’s already cost me 60/70k buying verses renting. I had to work bloody hard for that money. Now it’s the banks turn to take a hit.

My mortgage is about 2K a month; because I’m separated I get very little mortgage relief. I could rent for about 600/700 PM. and get tax relief on that. Renting would save me a minimum of 150k over the next 10 years.

I’m thinking its worth taking them on for 150k.


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## John Rambo

The bank isn't responsible for your situation...you are. They didn't force you to buy the property. That's the bottom line. If this was the US you could happily do what you're proposing. However in this country non recourse lending of this kind doesn't exist for home mortgages...there's no "jingle mail" although I'm sure many people wish there was.


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## scrivere

Let’s be clear about it. These people are responsible for this mess. All I did was buy a house.

[/quote]


Funny !!! It's comments like that, that make me very very cross.... No one made you buy the house.  Yes, there are alot of questions that need to be asked of the banks however it's got nothing to do with you buying a house and now deciding you don't/can't pay for it.


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## z107

What I understood from the OP's post was that they were aggrieved at having to pay for other people's mistakes


> I now find myself in a position where a bank expects me to spend the next 16 years of my life (if I live that long) helping to clean up a mess that they created?



I too am pretty angry at the way this country has been run during and after the bubble, and do not relish the thought of paying for others' mistakes.

Why aren't there new banks being set up?


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## scrivere

Maybe I am missing something here but how is paying our loans back cleaning up others mistakes. Now I can see why we would be annoyed about taxes etc... but loans... if we were happy to take the money now we have to pay.


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## Palabra

My point is we were conned. 

No normal sane person would have bought a property if they knew half of what these bozos were up to behind the scenes. 

I was led to believe to expect certain things from the banking institutions e.g. due diligence in their affairs, competency, even a certain amount of honesty?

How ironic these clowns now get to stand in judgement of my credit rating.

The really sad thing is it will happen again. They have gotten away with it(and in many cases have been richly rewarded) 

Human nature being what it is, if you get away with something why not try it again.


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## Quest

Who conned you into taking out this mortgage?  You borrowed knowing full well what had to  be paid back. I can apreciate you are angry at the situation that we have all found ourselves in. But get over yourself, if things were still on the up you would not be complaining...


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## haminka1

Palabra, what I really don't understand is yourself and others whinging about the bad times, bad banks and looking for the easy way out.
Let me tell you how I see it. I am a foreign national and when I came to Ireland some time ago, I was treated like a lesser being because I was not a part of the great Celtic tiger. I saw people rushing to shops and buying huge and overpriced plasma TVs without even looking at the price tag - the more expensive the better. And when the credit card was maxed, they got another one and then headed to the bank for a loan to buy another holiday in Spain, another plasma TV and smirked at me buying my groceries in Lidl because they could afford M&S and dine out and never cook anything in their life. When I asked them how they are going to pay their loans they smirked again and told me I can't understand the miracles of the booming economy because I'm too stupid.
There were enough warning signs in 2007 and enough people who said that an economy cannot function on consume, loans and construction industry permanently.
The same people who were spending like there was no tomorrow are now blaming everybody else but themselves for their decisions. Yes, the banks were handing out mortgages and loans but they were not forcing anybody to take them. I cannot remember anybody telling me, the bank was holding me hostage till I signed the car loan which was too expensive. 
It was your own decision to purchase the property - own up to it. Take responsibility for your own actions, you are a grown-up boy and should be able to do so. 
I pay my taxes in this country, my own private insurance, never used any social benefit in this country to finance my family abroad and in all honesty, people who do not own up to their own actions and blame everybody else plus always look for the easy way out thus adding to the burden of honest tax-payers simply make me sick.

P.S. Sorry for the rant but there comes a time when enough is enough.


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## Locke

Palabra said:


> All of my adult life the sensible thing to do was to buy property.


 
What rule book are you reading from? You're an Adult, you need to be take it into your own hands and not apply 'Everyone else was doing it...'



> I now find myself in a position where a bank expects me to spend the next 16 years of my life (if I live that long) helping to clean up a mess that they created?
> 
> Let’s be clear about it. These people are responsible for this mess. All I did was buy a house.


 
People buying at over inflated prices contributed to this too.




> Why should I (and many more like me) have to pay for the reckless, irresponsible, greedy even criminal behaviour of the lending institutions? While at the same time the government (read taxpayer) bales them out.


 
It's people like you defaulting on loans when you state you can pay them back that has the banks losing the money they lent out. Yes they were part of the cause, but doing this isn't part of the solution. Why the hell should I pay for you to throw responsibility out the window?




> I can just afford to pay my mortgage, but my thinking more and more is why the hell I should I?


 
Because your not 5, your 54.



> My belief is that it’s going to take a generation for this mess to sort itself out. I don’t have the time to wait for prices to come back. I’m never even going to break even on this house.
> 
> I've taken my hit on this house.


 
At your age, surely you were buying a home? It was a bad choice at your age buying something that you intended to sell.

We're all in this mess. Wasting time blaming people isn't going to get us out quicker.

It you want a better world, get busy in your own little corner.


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## Strathspey

John Rambo said:


> The bank isn't responsible for your situation...you are. They didn't force you to buy the property. That's the bottom line. If this was the US you could happily do what you're proposing. However in this country non recourse lending of this kind doesn't exist for home mortgages...there's no "jingle mail" although I'm sure many people wish there was.


 
You'de better start believing that there is "jingle mail". An Indian colleague of mine bought a house in Kinnegad, 6 years ago. Over the course of the next 4 years he applied for 3 mortgage top-ups on that same property and in the process bought 3 or 4 properties back in India. At the start of last year he sent his wife and two children back to India while he sat around waiting for a generous redundacy package. With 60K in his pocket he's now laughing somewhere in India at those thick Irish paddies.....and the chances of AIB finding him in India are about zero.


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## Chris

haminka1 said:


> Palabra, what I really don't understand is yourself and others whinging about the bad times, bad banks and looking for the easy way out......



I could not agree more with everything you say. It is extemely common human beahiour that we are seeing now. 
I can't count the amount of friends and colleagues I heard saying things like: "I made such a great decision 'investing' in these two houses, and my pension investment is doing so great as well, I got a new BMW from a re-mortgaged investment property, I'm an absolute genious at investing in the right things."
The same people are now blaming everyone but themselves for the debts they can no longer service. This is very common human behaviour, its your own good doing when things go well, but it couldn't possibly be your fault when things go wrong.

To the OP: pay back what you owe, if you don't the rest of us will have to, unless you convince the government to do the right thing and let these banks go bankrupt.


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## Mpsox

I'm confused by the OPs position. Let's suppose for a second (wishful thinking I know) that the crash never happened. He would still have paid 280k, still put another 60k into the house and would still have to pay back the loan. The crash had nothing to do with the fact that the loan still had to be paid back. Ok, so the property is in negative equity, that's actually irrelavant unless he is going to sell the house. 

Basically what he is saying here is that it would have been cheaper in the long term to have rented and not bought the house. That's not the banks fault, that's his own fault for not doing his maths in the first place. No one forced him to buy and at his age, you'd think he'd grow up and take responsibility for his own actions


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## marshmallow

haminka1 said:


> Palabra, what I really don't understand is yourself and others whinging about the bad times, bad banks and looking for the easy way out.
> Let me tell you how I see it. I am a foreign national and when I came to Ireland some time ago, I was treated like a lesser being because I was not a part of the great Celtic tiger. I saw people rushing to shops and buying huge and overpriced plasma TVs without even looking at the price tag - the more expensive the better. And when the credit card was maxed, they got another one and then headed to the bank for a loan to buy another holiday in Spain, another plasma TV and smirked at me buying my groceries in Lidl because they could afford M&S and dine out and never cook anything in their life. When I asked them how they are going to pay their loans they smirked again and told me I can't understand the miracles of the booming economy because I'm too stupid.
> There were enough warning signs in 2007 and enough people who said that an economy cannot function on consume, loans and construction industry permanently.
> The same people who were spending like there was no tomorrow are now blaming everybody else but themselves for their decisions. Yes, the banks were handing out mortgages and loans but they were not forcing anybody to take them. I cannot remember anybody telling me, the bank was holding me hostage till I signed the car loan which was too expensive.
> It was your own decision to purchase the property - own up to it. Take responsibility for your own actions, you are a grown-up boy and should be able to do so.
> I pay my taxes in this country, my own private insurance, never used any social benefit in this country to finance my family abroad and in all honesty, people who do not own up to their own actions and blame everybody else plus always look for the easy way out thus adding to the burden of honest tax-payers simply make me sick.
> 
> P.S. Sorry for the rant but there comes a time when enough is enough.


 
Excellent post


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## UFC

Palabra said:


> No normal sane person would have bought a property if they knew half of what these bozos were up to behind the scenes.


 
I thought it was blindingly obvious we were in a property bubble, hence I didn't buy a house.

If you had of done some basic research before making your purchase you would have come to the same conclusion.

It sounds like you only bought your home as an investment, otherwise you would have no problem paying your mortgage and living in your home as normal. 

I'm sorry, but you have no one to blame but yourself.


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## Ruam

This situation is not as clearcut as many people on this thread claim.  Some people have choices and decisions to make, e.g.  A friend of mine bought a house with her partner three years ago.  They have two children, they have since split up with the father contributing nothing.  He has lost his job and is seriously depressed and barely functioning.

My friend is left trying to pay a large mortgage and raise her children and it is really getting her down.  She is constantly behind in her bills, afraid answering the phone in case it is a debt collector.  The stress of it all is having a terrible effect on her mental health.  The children miss their father and she feels she is not giving the support and care that her children need and are suffering as a consequence.

At the moment she is paying much more in a mortgage that she would renting and she is seriously considering handing the keys back to the bank mostly for the sake of the children.  If she does she will have almost 1000 extra a month to live on and not be living with the constant stress of wondering where the money to pay the mortgage, phone bill etc. is coming from.   She has gone to Mabs and they have been a help but she is not coping well.

Who could blame her if she defaulted on her mortgage and told the bank they can have the house?  I know I wouldn't


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## Buddyg

You might feel conned but you were not. You were fully complicit in the whole affair, believing whatever bull you heard.

I didn't buy so why should I have to pay for your stupid mistake?



> At the moment she is paying much more in a mortgage that she would renting and she is seriously considering handing the keys back to the bank mostly for the sake of the children. If she does she will have almost 1000 extra a month to live on and not be living with the constant stress of wondering where the money to pay the mortgage, phone bill etc. is coming from. She has gone to Mabs and they have been a help but she is not coping well.


Your friend will end up paying for defaulting dearly. Could be 200K over her lifetime (legal fees, payments, clearing any neg equity after the bank firesales her house for 120K). There is no way out, she made the big decisions about partners and purchasing somethign massive like a house. She and her family now have to live with the consequences.


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## orionstar21

Has anyone got any sypmathy for Palabra? I like the way the media has conditioned you all, yes you heard me, conditioned you all. And an all out asault on one person in their 50s.  (foreign national, how do you know its a man?) He's expressing his views on the fact that the banks didn't give a toss about a)he/she was in their 50s and b)knew quite well that this was THE HIGHEST RISK client.  The banks were giving money out to people who THEY KNEW COULD NOT PAY IT BACK.  And where was the regulator? Catching a few zzzz's.  When peoples homes become comodities and investments then there is going to be a lot resentment when its taken from them.  Its is a basic necessity of life.  The banks CANNOT loose. If you dont pay the mortgage, they take your deosit, whatever payments, the contents and guess what.... they get the house back too, only to pass it onto some other sucker who they know will hope NEVER owns it either.  So now they have a house, money and stuff.  When you default on your payments say after 15 years of paying a morgage of 30 years then effectivly you have been working for the bank.  Not only have you sacrificed your work career but also your acedemic one too. You go to school to learn to do a job to pay for something that is taken away from you.  Its not each other we should be turning against.  The monetary system is corrupt, it always has been.  Money is debt, debt is money.  That system needs to fail.  Its only there as long as people have faith in that system.  I think you should reconsider this before you decide to laugh in the face of a 50 year old who might be thrown out onto the streets and blame him for wanting a home because thats the only crime I see him/her guilty of.
The bankers are the cause of all this, let there be no bones about it.  That was their game plan. To do everything in their power to make you never own an asset as valuable as your home becasue money is only a concept.  Its worthless paper and its only worth what the central banks tell you its worth so theres no even point withdrawing all your money as you could find yourself next year paying 30euros for a pint of milk.  Bankers are the problem not Palabra.


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## MiGs

What is the consequences of defaulting on your mortgage. 

You get a bad credit rating but really that won't matter and can not borrow for the rest of life. 

People say the rest of us have to pick up the tab..but we will for the rest of lives be picking up the tab of the current bad bank debts ... then our children will be still serving those debts. 

Is it time that we just said the country is bankrupt.. and start over again.


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## jhegarty

Mpsox said:


> I'm confused by the OPs position. Let's suppose for a second (wishful thinking I know) that the crash never happened.




The only different is that he would have been paying more because of the higher interest rates.


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## Buddyg

> The bankers are the cause of all this, let there be no bones about it. That was their game plan


Their motive was to make profit and the OP should have known this. Their motive certainly wasn't to have somebody default on their mortgage and lose money, requring a govt. bailout to survive. 

The people to blame in this are the bankers, estate agents and developers in their reckless pursuit of money. The government for supporting this and relying on the property taxes. And finally to every individual who bought property that was clearly overpriced thus making it impossible for sane people like myself to own my own home.


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## Buddyg

> What is the consequences of defaulting on your mortgage.
> 
> You get a bad credit rating but really that won't matter and can not borrow for the rest of life.


You have that debt over you for the rest of your life and will go to jail for non payment. You will be forced to emigrate to some far away place and never to return. Serious consequences, we're not just talking about your name in the Stubbs Gazette here.


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## lightswitch

MiGs said:


> What is the consequences of defaulting on your mortgage.
> 
> You get a bad credit rating but really that won't matter and can not borrow for the rest of life.
> 
> People say the rest of us have to pick up the tab..but we will for the rest of lives be picking up the tab of the current bad bank debts ... then our children will be still serving those debts.
> 
> Is it time that we just said the country is bankrupt.. and start over again.


 
+1, I have little debt myself but am capable of having some empathy towards those who are now in negitave equity, whatever age they are.

If I were Ruam's friend the keys would be going back to the bank.  Life is too short for that kind of stress.  What an unholy mess this is!


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## Ruam

Buddyg said:


> You have that debt over you for the rest of your life and will go to jail for non payment. You will be forced to emigrate to some far away place and never to return. Serious consequences, we're not just talking about your name in the Stubbs Gazette here.



If this is the case there are going to be an awful lot of people in jail.


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## MiGs

Have you ever heard of anybody go to jail for non payment of a mortgage. 

In the current climate the courts are looking favourable on people. 
Allowing them time to put together some sort of repayment plan. 

As been forced to emigrate to some far away. I think 2010 will be the year for a lot of people doing that.


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## Locke

If he hands back the keys he'll still be responsible for the debt.



> *From it's yourmoney.ie*
> _http://www.itsyourmoney.ie/index.jsp?pID=665&nID=773_
> 
> Handing back the keys does not mean that you can walk away from the debt. If the house is sold for less than you owe the lender, the lender can ask you to pay the difference and your credit rating will be damaged.


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## MiGs

Can anybody dispassionately spell out exactly what happens when you default on your mortgage. 

I understand it as 

1 . Default on a mortgage
2 . Bank send out arrears letters. 
3. Further arrears Bank take legal proceedings to take possession of house. 
4. Court Judgement . 
5. Bank take ownership and sell property
6. The shortfall from the sale the bank then demands repyment from former owner. 
7. ....................failure to pay that shortfall ....? what happens.....


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## Locke

Code Of Conduct On Mortgage Arrears might shed a little light on that for you MIGs:

[broken link removed]

All banks have to abide by this in how they manage their arrears.


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## Firefly

This looks like a wind-up/troll to me.


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## Mpsox

jhegarty said:


> The only different is that he would have been paying more because of the higher interest rates.


 
That's actually a very good point which many people overlook, if the crash hadn't happened, it is a reasonable assumption to make that we would be paying more back to the banks because interest rates would be higher


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## so-crates

Palabra, you contracted for a loan and promised to pay it off. If you do not then you become part of that bad debt portfolio. This means that you make the banks investments appear even more risky, even those that should not. Ultimately this destroys confidence in the bank and pushes up the rates banks can borrow at. Ultimately such a spiral simply impoverishes everyone in an economy. 

From the sound of it you weren't (as orionstar21 seems to think) a particularly high risk candidate for a mortgage. You are able to afford it. To me you seem to be just aggrieved that we appear to be bank-rolling past profligacy on the part of a virtual oligarch.

You aren't the only one who feels aggrieved. Who hasn't been appalled by the evidence that has emerged of a culture of indulgent speculation and general foolishness. Not all of us though assume that our actions are so isolated as you and orionstar21 seem to think. Not all of us play the part of the 2007 ingenue that you wish to paint yourself as and cry "I didn't know", "Nobody told me", "No fair". Not all of us think that like children we can throw our toy out of the pram and get someone else to pick it up.

There are two aspects to look at in my opinion. Firstly (since it seems to be the part you are open to considering) is the mé féin (myself) aspect. You chose a property you liked. You went looking for a way to finance the purchase of that property. You contracted with a bank to lend you that money that you then agreed to repay. Now you don't fancy repaying it. Now you want to walk away from the agreement that you as a fully functional adult made. The reason you want to do this is pretty much so "cos you feel like it". The personal penalties for such a move are already documented. As another poster pointed out, you could run away and hide in another country and try to avoid it that way but there is little guarantee that this problem will simply disappear if you do. And contrary to the implication that his acquaintance has got away scot-free, it is still a not a non-recourse loan. He still owes the bank. "Handing back the keys" in certain parts of the US actually formally cancels the debt at the lenders expense, the lender CANNOT chase the borrower for any outstanding amount on the loan.

Secondly is the sinn féin (ourselves) aspect. Over the long term this sort of behaviour damages confidence in people who take out mortgages and as has been globally and dramatically demonstrated tends to freeze credit generally. Do you have children? Nephews? Nieces? Family? Do you wish it to become progressively more difficult for them to access credit? Do you wish banks to re-assess the conditions for mortgages and make them inaccessible to all but the wealthy few (as it once was)? How about business loans? Personal loans? All of these are used by people as tools to generate wealth and welfare. All these provide people with a flexibility and liquidity that otherwise they cannot enjoy. What would you have? Interest rates set at punitive levels? Limitations on personal movement and control in exchange for credit? It may seem unbelievable but there are people in this world who can only access credit on such terms and while I do not believe that it would happen here, to the major banks at least, it is not beyond the realms of the possible. Indeed there is evidence that it is currently thriving and expanding in certain areas of Ireland where access to reasonable credit so curtailed that people are borrowing from lenders who not only charge exhorbitant rates but may also engage in practices that ensure they get paid first at the expense of the borrowers rights.

It is disingenuous of you to suggest you are stupid. It is disingenuous of you to deprecate your own capabilities. By insisting that you didn't notice that property prices were soaring out of all proportion to the rest of the economy or to their intrinsic value you are implying that you were/are stupid and incapable of interpreting basic data. Don't be so hard on yourself.


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## Palabra

Let me clear up a few things.

First I can afford to pay this mortgage at the moment. ( Who knows about the future) 

I'm not one of these people who went crazy during the "good times" I didn't max my credit cards or buy a new Merc or any of that stuff. My only "crime " was to buy a modest three bed townhouse for my partner and her two kids and me to live in.

The reason I can afford to pay is because I run a small successful business. I pay my taxes (most) I pay my suppliers including my bank, I pay my car loan I pay my staff etc. and when everybody is paid I pay myself. I have no problem paying what I consider lawful debts.

My problem with my mortgage is that I believe I was the victim of a fraud, and as far as I'm concerned all bets are off.

Let me explain how the scam operated. When I took out the loan to buy the house, I had no idea that behind the scenes the lending institutions in conjunction with others ( developers, builders, other banks, the government and others ) were conspiring to artificially drive up the price of property. 

They had been at this for years. The reason for them doing this was so that the fat cats at the top of this pyramid could gorge themselves on huge bonus payments.

In order for the banks to achieve this the first thing they had to do was dump the book of basic rules on how to run a bank. This mess we find ourselves in now 
( and I'm not talking about the recession which I believe is a separate issue) is not an act of God. This was caused primarily by the lending institutions. 

They were the one group involved in all of this who had the power to call a halt to the madness. All they had to do was to go back to the basic rules for running a bank. Most everybody else involved in this was to some extent or another caught up in the merry go round with no way to get off.

In places like Australia, Canada, South Africa and many other countries they simply don't have this problem. Why ? Because their banks operated in a normal businesslike way. When the manure hit the fan in the property market in the UK in the late eighties, we were completely unaffected. Why ? because our banks at the time were run properly.

　
Maybe if enough of us threw the keys back at them it would force the Government to do something other than wiping their arses and setting them on their merry way again.


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## Buddyg

> First I can afford to pay this mortgage at the moment.


Are you for real?

If you deemed the price of the house reasonable when you bought then nothing has changed. You are just ****ed off because you've wasted a hundred K by not doing your research. You are the cause of the problem. 

Were you shouting about mortgage lending practices years back like I was? When banks were giving people 9-10 times their icome, driving prices up and everybody was complicit in it.


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## UFC

Palabra said:


> My problem with my mortgage is that I believe I was the victim of a fraud, and as far as I'm concerned all bets are off.


 
You are wrong.

The problem is you didn't bother doing any research before you bought. A blind man could see we were in a property bubble. The only reason you couldn't see that was because you either naively believed everything the sales people were telling you, or you simply didn't bother having a little think about things. 

For example, does it make sense that a small house in the middle of no where, where there are no jobs, should sell for 10 - 15 times the average industrial wage? Of course not, it makes no sense. 

I'm sorry you couldn't see that. 

You are an adult. You are not a child. Take personal responsibility for your decisions.

Blaming others for your own mistakes is a terrible trait. You are in your 50s - you should know this by now.


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## queenlex

Lets be honest and I know some are no matter how much money the bank were willing to give anyone they didnt have to apply for the loan and get themselves in all that debt I am particularly sorry for people who are like the OP or people with kids but people were very naive to think banks are not trying to make a profit for their shareholders like any other business.  I believe if you should be annoyed with anyone (other than yourselves for your greed/recklessness) it should be the politicians for creating a situation where the banks were effectively encouraged to do this and if that article in the sunday tribune I was reading at the wkd is accurate they are still trying to keep house prices articificially high...for whose benefit?  The Government obviously to keep the stamp duty and other associated taxes coming in and of course to generate as much profit as possible like any business...

Come on some people really have to take some responsibility for their own actions and we have to make sure all this greed on everyone's behalf doesnt happen again for social reasons.


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## queenlex

ufc said:


> you are wrong.
> 
> The problem is you didn't bother doing any research before you bought. A blind man could see we were in a property bubble.
> 
> Blaming others for your own mistakes is a terrible trait. You are in your 50s - you should know this by now.



+1


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## queenlex

PS you should rent it out asap while you can find someone stupid/desperate to give you anything near the mortgage payments for it.  THats my charitable act for the day...and I am not joking.  Good luck with it seriously you will just have to be more frugal with your spending it could be a lot lot worse believe me.


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## lightswitch

"Were you shouting about mortgage lending practices years back like I was? When banks were giving people 9-10 times their icome, driving prices up and everybody was complicit in it. "

Where exactly were you shouting about it BuddyG? Cos with 17 posts it certainly wasn't around here!


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## Buddyg

lightswitch said:


> "Were you shouting about mortgage lending practices years back like I was? When banks were giving people 9-10 times their icome, driving prices up and everybody was complicit in it. "
> 
> Where exactly were you shouting about it BuddyG? Cos with 17 posts it certainly wasn't around here!


Politicians, friends, the million or so other forums on the web.


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## Locke

lightswitch said:


> "Were you shouting about mortgage lending practices years back like I was? When banks were giving people 9-10 times their icome, driving prices up and everybody was complicit in it. "
> 
> Where exactly were you shouting about it BuddyG? Cos with 17 posts it certainly wasn't around here!


 
So the fact that he wasn't here meant he was silent? 

His comment was in relation to the OP.


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## orionstar21

SO-CRATES.  

So,not only are people to foot the bill for the banks and government cartel scheme, not only are people loosing their homes, not only are people loosing their jobs with the white and blue collars packing their bags but we are to be told over and over again by people like you that we are blind, ignorant and stupid of what was clearly our own problem brought on by our own greed.  I would agree if it was people with more than one house, but not with one they want to call home.  I knew for one that there was a property bubble and wasnt dumb enough to buy something overpriced like some, but at the end of the day, I did need somewhere to live and as there was no regulation in the rental market or the buying market...... I decided well why pay rent if its the same price as a mortgage?  

My point is, regardless of how clear the signs are or were you still need a home.  People knew the bubble was false.  I would have opted to rent NO PROBLEM if rent was actually rent rates and not mortgage rates.  We are slaves to the monetary system.  Economists dont predict booms and boosts, International bankers create them.  No one questions the origins of money.  No one is stupid here.  If a guy in stood in front of me with a gun and told me swans were black, I'd have to just say yes swans are black.  Why, because he has a gun.  But I know swans are white but I'd have to deal with it.  Just like the government telling us theres a water shortage, THE PLANNET IS SURROUNDED BY THE STUFF!  I then hear people say but its too hard to pureify salt water.. ....  But its somehow easier to purify crude oil but no one questions that.

Again, my point is, yes everyone knew the bubble was false but you have to deal with it.  You still need to survive.  You still need a home.


----------



## so-crates

You make some very interesting arguments orionstar21, unfortunately I can't quite address them right now as I am a bit busy. In the interim, just so you don't feel like you have to lie when that putative gun is to your head, swans do indeed come in black.


----------



## Locke

orionstar21 said:


> If a guy in stood in front of me with a gun and told me swans were black, I'd have to just say yes swans are black. Why, because he has a gun. But I know swans are white but I'd have to deal with it.
> 
> Again, my point is, yes everyone knew the bubble was false but you have to deal with it. You still need to survive. You still need a home.


 
I strongly suggest you report that to the Gardai. I was lucky, I managed to avoid having a gun put to my head. As did eveybody I knew.

Instead, I looked at how much I could afford. Muttered under my breath that houses were to expensive, waited, and bought when I could afford. 

Yes, everyone needs to survive. I totally agree with you there, but taking a risk when you are bordering on what you can afford is not a risk worth taking.

At the end of the day, we make our own choices. It's very easy to absolve yourself of any blame when things turn bad.

I'll take a quote from a successful comedy made in the ninties, which rings true when the mass decide it wasn't their fault, when it's easier to blame others than admit that each one of us made choices that were not the best:

_"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."_


----------



## Palabra

Let’s summarise then shall we?

•	I was stupid and greedy for wanting to buy a house and put a roof over my family’s head in the first place. I deserve everything that’s coming to me.

•	The people gave me the loan, who *deliberately conspired to bring about a scenario whereby I ended up paying nearly twice what the property is worth, they should take no hit whatsoever on this deal. 

•	No! Better yet! Now that their scam has blown up in their faces, the government should come in and wipe their arses and let them off to do the same thing again in the future. 

Makes sense to me!!!!!!*


----------



## Locke

Don't be harsh on yourself, you were not being stupid and greedy for wanting to put a roof over your families heads.

But getting back to your original post, you _are_ being stupid for stating that now that you have the mortgage and can afford to pay it, why the hell should you?




> I can just afford to pay my mortgage, but my thinking more and more is why the hell I should I?


----------



## Chris

orionstar21 said:


> He's expressing his views on the fact that the banks didn't give a toss about a)he/she was in their 50s and b)knew quite well that this was THE HIGHEST RISK client.


Complete and utter nonsense; someone in their 50s with stable income, deposit saved, money to furnish the house and the ability to service a 280k mortgage is NOT the highest risk client.




orionstar21 said:


> The monetary system is corrupt, it always has been.  Money is debt, debt is money.  That system needs to fail.  Its only there as long as people have faith in that system.  I think you should reconsider this before you decide to laugh in the face of a 50 year old who might be thrown out onto the streets and blame him for wanting a home because thats the only crime I see him/her guilty of.
> 
> The bankers are the cause of all this, let there be no bones about it.  That was their game plan. To do everything in their power to make you never own an asset as valuable as your home becasue money is only a concept.  Its worthless paper and its only worth what the central banks tell you its worth so theres no even point withdrawing all your money as you could find yourself next year paying 30euros for a pint of milk.  Bankers are the problem not Palabra.


I only partially agree with this. Bankers took on too high risks. But the problem is not that they did it, the problem is that they are not being punished for it. A free-market economy should be based on a profit AND (here is the important part) loss system, where success is rewarded and failure is punished. What we have lived with for decades is a profit system. It's like being offered to gamble on the toss of a coin: heads you win a € tails you break even. In a system like this it is not surprising that bankers tossed the coin too much, but that was what was offered by our banking system.
However, there was no game plan for you to never own an asset; for this to be true you would have to attribute bankers with competences and intellect that are too high and give them the power to coerce you into decisions and force you to take on more debt.. 
Ultimately, the problem is not bankers but a central banking, fractional reserve system with fiat currency that is not redeemable for anything. So long as there is a 'lender of last resort' we will continue to see financial crises, because there is no incentive to avoid risk.




orionstar21 said:


> Again, my point is, yes everyone knew the bubble was false but you have to deal with it.  You still need to survive.  You still need a home.


Yes, you need shelter, in the form of a home, to survive, but you do NOT need to own a home. Owning a home should be a reward for successfully managing your finances to be able to afford to buy it. The 'afford' part is open to individual interpretations, but if you decide you can afford a house and it turns out that when things go sour, you can't actually afford it, then that is your own doing. And no lack of regulation or rules should be blamed for this, it was your own decision.


----------



## Chris

Palabra said:


> •	I was stupid and greedy for wanting to buy a house and put a roof over my family’s head in the first place. I deserve everything that’s coming to me.


Not stupid, maybe greedy for wanting to OWN, rather than rent. If all you wanted was a roof over your family's head, then the current value of your home should be completely irrelevant to you now and any time in the future.



Palabra said:


> •	The people gave me the loan, who *deliberately conspired to bring about a scenario whereby I ended up paying nearly twice what the property is worth, they should take no hit whatsoever on this deal.
> 
> *


*
There was no grand conspiracy, nobody was ever forced to buy anything. People chose to buy into the hype fed by banks, politicians, media, friends, colleagues, etc!!!



Palabra said:



			•	No! Better yet! Now that their scam has blown up in their faces, the government should come in and wipe their arses and let them off to do the same thing again in the future.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, the banks should be allowed go bankrupt and liquidated. It's the only thing that will discourage this behaviour in the future.*


----------



## Grace80

Right, I have to post. Can't resist any longer - 

OP - get a grip. You bought during the boom, are now in negative equity and are feeling sorry for yourself. If the complete failure of the property market didn't occur you would be sitting pretty on your couple of hundred grand of equity and there would not be a peep out of you. The fact that you have admitted that you are well able to meet your repayments completely emphasises your spoilt brat mentality. Things haven't gone your way so let’s look for a get out clause.

How many people do you think have the same problem as you? I'll tell you my story. I am a single woman in my twenties i.e. - half your age. I have been working in banking since I graduated University (*please don't shoot!*). During the "bubble" I was afforded a 100% mortgage at a very favourable interest rate. I saw this as a very good opportunity to get on the ladder and jumped at the chance. Fast forward 2 years and I am living in, what I affectionately call a "shoe box" with at least €200k negative equity chained around my neck. Of course I knew the price of the property I bought was overinflated, but I took the gamble against my better judgement (and my degree in economics!). The Banks are not totally blameless, but – like everyone else, jumped on this bandwagon and made credit more easily available to cope with the demand. I know it is not as simple as that – there are many other forces involved but further detail would require a whole new thread. 

In layman’s terms, hindsight is a wonderful thing and I wish everyone here who had their crystal ball back in 2006/2007 spoke up. My point is, in essence, that not once since the property market collapse and my negative equity has spiralled, have I contemplated this "hand back the keys" sh*t.

I, as an educated adult, signed the letter of offer, without the gun to my head. Now I have to face the consequences. My home is worthless to the bank. So, if I can meet my repayments, that is what I will do. If I start to struggle with repayments for some reason, I will talk to my bank and come to some sort of arrangement.


----------



## UFC

Grace80 said:


> I wish everyone here who had their crystal ball back in 2006/2007 spoke up.


 
We did. Unfortunately we were not allowed mention it on askaboutmoney.com. Anyone who said the bubble was going to burst got banned. 

As a result of this we migrated over to thepropertypin.com. If you go have a look there now you will see we've been shouting about the bubble bursting for years. Everything we have said has come true.


----------



## Shelleyb

Friday November 06 2009
THE report from the OECD (Irish Independent, November 5) is the first true indicator of who is now pulling our budgetary purse strings.
I said a long time ago that the EU was now running this country. You do not bail out a country to the tune of €100bn and not take control.
Everything the OECD said is the same as that being advocated by the Government. 
In fact, Charlie McCreevy once said the EU did not understand the Irish economy.
Although I agree with the recommendations in the report, I am fearful they have not addressed the core of the problem.
*Successive **Fianna Fail** governments created a situation whereby workers' wages became nothing more than leverage to borrow money.*
*The banks and the money they lent became the driving force of our economy. Everything we purchased and the majority of taxes we paid was with borrowed money. Our wages were used to make repayments*. 
We now have a situation where wages are being driven down but the debt accrued as a multiple of previous earnings is not. You will not get meek acceptance of wage cuts if you do not apply them fairly.

I am sick and tired of the "it was your choice" argument.  Read above, we had no choice, never did, we had two directions to go in, NOT CHOICES, pay a property developer huge money to live in their space or take out a huge mortgage for a grossly inflated property.  In other words, we really didn't have a choice.  My other gripe is not all of us overspent on 4X4s, plasmas, 3 holidays a year, some were modestly living and struggling all through the "celtic tiger" - I'm sick of the envy.  It is not this man's fault he ended up with a weight around his neck at 54 years of age.  It's a disgrace in fact.  Get over the envy and drop the 'choice' argument, have some kindness, respect and consideration.  Take it out on the bullies in charge!


----------



## UFC

Shelleyb said:


> I am sick and tired of the "it was your choice" argument. Read above, we had no choice, never did, we had two directions to go in, NOT CHOICES, pay a property developer huge money to live in their space or take out a huge mortgage for a grossly inflated property. In other words, we really didn't have a choice. My other gripe is not all of us overspent on 4X4s, plasmas, 3 holidays a year, some were modestly living and struggling all through the "celtic tiger" - I'm sick of the envy. It is not this man's fault he ended up with a weight around his neck at 54 years of age. It's a disgrace in fact. Get over the envy and drop the 'choice' argument, have some kindness, respect and consideration. Take it out on the bullies in charge!


 
Of course we had a choice. I chose not to buy an overpriced property because I knew our prices were unsustainable. 

As an adult you are free to do whatever you want. No one can force us to do anything. 

And I don't understand your envy comment.

Seriously now, if I was able to make a decision to avoid buying, then anyone could.


----------



## Grace80

Shelleyb said:


> IMy other gripe is not all of us overspent on 4X4s, plasmas, 3 holidays a year, some were modestly living and struggling all through the "celtic tiger" - I'm sick of the envy. It is not this man's fault he ended up with a weight around his neck at 54 years of age. It's a disgrace in fact. Get over the envy and drop the 'choice' argument, have some kindness, respect and consideration. Take it out on the bullies in charge!


 
I don't unerstand your post tbh. What do you mean by envy?? What are we meant to have kindness, respect and consderation for? Is this man unemployed with no income or ability to repay his mortgage? No. He admitted himself that he is well able to make repayments. He is just angry because the property has not made him any money. Thousands of people are in the same boat - as am I. 

You're contradicting yourself by complaining about those who indulged during the celtic tiger and borrowed money, then defending a man who is having a tantrum about borrowing money for a property during that time in the hope it would earn him a return and the opposite has transpired.


----------



## SteveW9

Shelleyb said:


> Friday November 06 2009
> I am sick and tired of the "it was your choice" argument. Read above, we had no choice, never did, we had two directions to go in, NOT CHOICES, pay a property developer huge money to live in their space or take out a huge mortgage for a grossly inflated property. In other words, we really didn't have a choice. !


 
We did have a CHOICE which was not to buy at crazy prices ....you could have CHOSEN to rent somewhere modest for a resonable price(yes there was suck a thing in the bubble) which is what sensible people did....utter rubbish Shelley


----------



## Locke

Of course we had a choice, we always have a choice. 

Maybe envy refers to buying what we could not afford because we saw what the next person had and felt that was a lifestyle we wnated too even though we couldn't afford it. That was a choice too. And it was the choice of the person who took out the original debt.

Granted hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it's also a powerful lesson.


----------



## Chris

Shelleyb said:


> Although I agree with the recommendations in the report, I am fearful they have not addressed the core of the problem.
> *Successive **Fianna Fail** governments created a situation whereby workers' wages became nothing more than leverage to borrow money.*


The problem is not just an FF government, the problem is that ANY government would have introduced similar interventions instead of leaving the free market alone. I have yet to hear a politician in this country say that government should stay away from any form of economic intervention.



Shelleyb said:


> *The banks and the money they lent became the driving force of our economy. Everything we purchased and the majority of taxes we paid was with borrowed money. Our wages were used to make repayments*.
> We now have a situation where wages are being driven down but the debt accrued as a multiple of previous earnings is not. You will not get meek acceptance of wage cuts if you do not apply them fairly.


Let me play devil's advocate here: all the banks did was offer what people wanted, loans. The fact that a vast majority of people wanted to own the big house, fancy car, 3 holidays a year, etc, on borrowed money is not the banks' fault. What is the banks' fault is the losses they are now seeing due to too high risks and they should not get a penny for it.
You are painting a picture here as if it wasn't possible to have a basic standard of living in this country without taking out loans and mortgages, which is complete and utter nonsense.




Shelleyb said:


> I am sick and tired of the "it was your choice" argument.  Read above, we had no choice, never did, we had two directions to go in, NOT CHOICES, pay a property developer huge money to live in their space or take out a huge mortgage for a grossly inflated property.  In other words, we really didn't have a choice.  My other gripe is not all of us overspent on 4X4s, plasmas, 3 holidays a year, some were modestly living and struggling all through the "celtic tiger" - I'm sick of the envy.  It is not this man's fault he ended up with a weight around his neck at 54 years of age.  It's a disgrace in fact.  Get over the envy and drop the 'choice' argument, have some kindness, respect and consideration.  Take it out on the bullies in charge!



Again, you could have had a very good standard of living in this country without taking on any or too much debt. Here is my story:
In late 2003 I made the CHOICE to buy a house; I CHOSE an 85% mortgage (not 92% as offered by the bank) based on 3 times our combined earnings (not 6 times as offered by the bank); I CHOSE to save hard in order to furnish the house; I CHOSE to drive a 5 year old car (not remortgage the house after 6 months to buy a luxury car as offered by the bank); I CHOSE to reduce the mortgage to 75% based on the original price; in late 2007 I CHOSE to sell the house (because I didn't believe the soft landing BS) by putting it on the market for 15% less than other sellers in the neighbourhood were asking; I then CHOSE to rent and have been doing since; I also CHOSE to have one credit card and pay the bill every month when CC debts were skyrocketing;
Every step of the way I had a choice, I could have taken the choices offered, and often encouraged, by the banks, and also recommended by friends and colleagues, but here is the point: I didn't because nobody anywhere forced me to. Along the way I had people laugh at me for the choices I made. As the saying goes, 'it's not until the tide goes out that you know who's not wearing shorts'; I'm one of the few with the shorts because of the choices I made.


----------



## orionstar21

SO-CRATES

swans do indeed come in black. 

ILMAO  LOL.   Stunned, speachless.  vgud.


----------



## Grace80

Chris said:


> Let me play devil's advocate here: all the banks did was offer what people wanted, loans. The fact that a vast majority of people wanted to own the big house, fancy car, 3 holidays a year, etc, on borrowed money is not the banks' fault. What is the banks' fault is the losses they are now seeing due to too high risks and they should not get a penny for it.
> You are painting a picture here as if it wasn't possible to have a basic standard of living in this country without taking out loans and mortgages, which is complete and utter nonsense.


 
I agree with this - the Bank's responded to demand. At times perhaps policy and regulation took a back seat to this. However, during that time, wages were increasing along with people's purchasing and buying power.  The influx of foreign nationals further added to this demand. The country as a whole got more confident and wrapped up in our economic prosperity and yes, greed did play a part. Many threw away the notion that property is a long term investment with peaks and troughs and were buying with the view that in the short term they could make a quick buck. I am not saying the Banks are blameless, but if they had reacted the opposite direction - i.e. tightened credit policy and virtually closed for business as they have done of late, people would've complained about that.


----------



## Chris

Grace80 said:


> I am not saying the Banks are blameless, but if they had reacted the opposite direction - i.e. tightened credit policy and virtually closed for business as they have done of late, people would've complained about that.



This is an excellent point. Banks are currently under fire for having tightened their lending rules and lending less, while this tightening is exactly what politicians are saying should have been regulated more strictly in the past years. Either you want strict lending policies or you want easy credit to fuel a consumption based economy, you can't have both.


----------



## dodo

I know a Irish guy who is married to a french lady,He bought investment house in 2006 with 100% mortgage of 360K house now 230K .He had already paid of his own house a few years back.
He bought a new house in France mid of 2008 after selling his own family home and posted back the key's of the investment house to the lender,he left no forwarding address and has no plan's to move to back to Ireland.The house in France is in his children's name.
Also worked with a Romanian guy who had a loan to build house back in his native land,lost job here and says he will never pay back loan.
These people never seem to have an issue after.
Know of a English guy who moved to Ireland in early 90,s after housing collapse in England.He was the first guy to mention jingle mail to me.Again never any follow up 15 or so years later.  Banks allow for a certain amount of loss maybe have some sort of insurance.
 If you feel that things are getting you down and maybe as some people do think of suicide due to your financial problems.Then maybe best thing to do is start all over again somewhere new and learn from your mistakes.  
Suicides are up something like 40 % this year and this is due to the downturn in the Country. So before people start having a go at people who feel hard done by think about what some people are doing to escape.
I prefer to to think that these people had escaped to a foreign Country rather than took their own lives .
I know these people took out the loans and now know it was a mistake .  
Of course people are there to pick up the tab  but that will sort itself out in time.There are already some of those people who got us into this mess have flown the nest and set up new lives in Switzerland for eg.And these people just get on with it so why can't the normal guy do the same thing.


----------



## fast eddie

orionstar21 said:


> SO-CRATES.
> 
> So,not only are people to foot the bill for the banks and government cartel scheme, not only are people loosing their homes, not only are people loosing their jobs with the white and blue collars packing their bags but we are to be told over and over again by people like you that we are blind, ignorant and stupid of what was clearly our own problem brought on by our own greed. I would agree if it was people with more than one house, but not with one they want to call home. I knew for one that there was a property bubble and wasnt dumb enough to buy something overpriced like some, but at the end of the day, I did need somewhere to live and as there was no regulation in the rental market or the buying market...... I decided well why pay rent if its the same price as a mortgage?
> 
> My point is, regardless of how clear the signs are or were you still need a home. People knew the bubble was false. I would have opted to rent NO PROBLEM if rent was actually rent rates and not mortgage rates. We are slaves to the monetary system. Economists dont predict booms and boosts, International bankers create them. No one questions the origins of money. No one is stupid here. If a guy in stood in front of me with a gun and told me swans were black, I'd have to just say yes swans are black. Why, because he has a gun. But I know swans are white but I'd have to deal with it. Just like the government telling us theres a water shortage, THE PLANNET IS SURROUNDED BY THE STUFF! I then hear people say but its too hard to pureify salt water.. .... But its somehow easier to purify crude oil but no one questions that.
> 
> Again, my point is, yes everyone knew the bubble was false but you have to deal with it. You still need to survive. You still need a home.


 

Great post . Indeed their was criminal behaviour in the banks and as a result we are in for the long haul of bailing out banks .


----------



## fast eddie

dodo said:


> I know a Irish guy who is married to a french lady,He bought investment house in 2006 with 100% mortgage of 360K house now 230K .He had already paid of his own house a few years back.
> He bought a new house in France mid of 2008 after selling his own family home and posted back the key's of the investment house to the lender,he left no forwarding address and has no plan's to move to back to Ireland.The house in France is in his children's name.
> Also worked with a Romanian guy who had a loan to build house back in his native land,lost job here and says he will never pay back loan.
> These people never seem to have an issue after.
> Know of a English guy who moved to Ireland in early 90,s after housing collapse in England.He was the first guy to mention jingle mail to me.Again never any follow up 15 or so years later. Banks allow for a certain amount of loss maybe have some sort of insurance.
> If you feel that things are getting you down and maybe as some people do think of suicide due to your financial problems.Then maybe best thing to do is start all over again somewhere new and learn from your mistakes.
> Suicides are up something like 40 % this year and this is due to the downturn in the Country. So before people start having a go at people who feel hard done by think about what some people are doing to escape.
> I prefer to to think that these people had escaped to a foreign Country rather than took their own lives .
> I know these people took out the loans and now know it was a mistake .
> Of course people are there to pick up the tab but that will sort itself out in time.There are already some of those people who got us into this mess have flown the nest and set up new lives in Switzerland for eg.And these people just get on with it so why can't the normal guy do the same thing.


 
Thats what I did . Although I did not put the keys in the post I just emigrated . I have a new passport and I am untraceable . Let the bank put my property into NAMA .


----------



## dodo

fast eddie said:


> Thats what I did . Although I did not put the keys in the post I just emigrated . I have a new passport and I am untraceable . Let the bank put my property into NAMA .


What's good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander, When all this is sorted out people wont care,  remember we have not a WW 3 or anything, it is just money no 6 million people dying  just because they believe in a certain religion.
I understand why people do this, why spend the next 20 years worrying  about paying back something when you can just walk away, many a rich man made himself bankrupt just to start a new business and this is accepted.
Best of luck to you fast eddie


----------



## bluemac

[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]I understand both sides here. 
But there is a good point in all of this we were all (most of us) conned.
I'm not saying you shouldn't pay back dept you need to take responsibility for your own actions.

Having said that the banks were conning each other selling packages of investments with dodgy properties from the US in them, They were selling on all the dept then buying it back and selling it on again just to get more money to lend to us all... which they were not doing responsible (not sure they have to?)    It all goes bust because of what they have done to inflate the market. hence all the properties fall I think to what is now a realistic level for today (with no recession) 50% off.

(again you took the loan so you should feel like you have to repay it.)

But id say with a good lawyer.. we all could have a case to sue the banks... and reduce our outstanding mortgages to a level had the banks acted responsible would have actually been the price of we would have paid for the property at the time... 

not sure this would help us all in the end though.

[/FONT]


----------



## callybags

fast eddie said:


> Thats what I did . Although I did not put the keys in the post I just emigrated . I have a new passport and I am untraceable . Let the bank put my property into NAMA .


 
So you expect me and the rest of the posters here to pay for your recklesness, because you are not man (or woman) enough to face up to your responsibilities.

Wonderful.


----------



## Bronte

callybags said:


> So you expect me and the rest of the posters here to pay for your recklesness, because you are not man (or woman) enough to face up to your responsibilities.
> 
> Wonderful.


 
Well it's preferable for Fast Eddy to do that then to say commit suicide.  

I've often wondered recently if some of those up to their neck in debt wouldn't be better off posting the keys to the bank and going to rent a home especially if they've lost their job.  It might be financially better for people with a lot of debt, in massive negative equity with property falling further, interest rates rising to just throw in the towel.  Start with a clean plate.  There will be a lot of it coming soon in Ireland (personal belief)

OP did make one good point about who colluding in making  property prices artifically high - and those who still are be warned.


----------



## lightswitch

Bronte said:


> Well it's preferable for Fast Eddy to do that then to say commit suicide.
> 
> I've often wondered recently if some of those up to their neck in debt wouldn't be better off posting the keys to the bank and going to rent a home especially if they've lost their job. It might be financially better for people with a lot of debt, in massive negative equity with property falling further, interest rates rising to just throw in the towel. Start with a clean plate. There will be a lot of it coming soon in Ireland (personal belief)
> 
> OP did make one good point about who colluding in making property prices artifically high - and those who still are be warned.


 

I can understand where you're coming from Bronte, you being a landlord and all


----------



## Bronte

lightswitch said:


> I can understand where you're coming from Bronte, you being a landlord and all


 
Well believe it or not I was priced out of the market with everyone else rushing in !    It just made no sense there in the middle of the boom.  But I was there before the boom, in the middle of it and hopefully at the end of it when I may buy again when NAMA starts selling off property at knock down prices.  

On a serious note I have a lot of sympathy for couples who bought a home at the height of the market without understanding what negative equity was.  There were a lot of people deluded into thinking that property could only go up.  I've met loads of them.  But I've never understood the mentality that Haminkas's excellent post described.  On AAM it's hard to figure out who got into debt for a home and who went mad with cars/loans/holidays and houses.


----------



## lightswitch

This part of your post,

"I've met loads of them. But *I've never understood the mentality that Haminkas's excellent post described*. On AAM it's hard to figure out who got into debt for a home and who went mad with cars/loans/holidays and houses."

Is answered by this other part of your post.

"There were a lot of people deluded into thinking that property could only go up."

I myself was offered top up mortgages for "anything at all, wink wink"  as I had soooo much equity in my house "just sitting there".  I didn't take it, I didn't need it, but many others did.

My bank are still calling me in for financial reviews.  In the past, including last year this has always translated in to they wanting to sell me something.  In the past it was always a loan, possibly with the cash shortage it is some sort of insurance this time.


----------



## fast eddie

This happens all the time in business . My accountant will contact the bank after a certain period of time and I will offer to settle for say 30 cents in the Euro . A deal will be done and everybody will be happy .

However I have the means to settle but what about all those unemployed people with 100 % mortgages , credit cards , credit union loans , personal loans , car loans etc etc etc ? 
They simply will be never be able to repay . If they are forced to spend the rest of their lives repaying these debts they will be dead to the economy and the state will be forced to house them in social housing .
There will have to be a NAMA for them or debt forgivness on a massive scale or Ireland will simply grind to a halt for the next 20 years .

We can blame the ECB for cheap credit or Greensspan , pure greed , stupidity but at the end of the day the government failed in one very simply duty . To regulate the banks and reign in their lending practices .


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## UFC

lightswitch said:


> My bank are still calling me in for financial reviews. In the past, including last year this has always translated in to they wanting to sell me something.


 
Why would it be anything else? If the used car sales man rang you for a "review", it's because he wants to sell you a car.

I don't understand why so many people can't/won't accept that banks are ruthless money lenders; they aren't independent financial advisors who care about you.


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## dodo

At this stage it does not matter who's fault it was damaged is done, people are looking for advice on what to do now.No point saying you did this and that so hard luck pay up.
The fact is alot of people  have now lost their jobs and simply can't repay,so what are they meant to do now. The I told you so remarks are not what people need to hear .
They know that now so what do you do if you now find yourself with a mortgage of 400K and house value now 200K and  you are now on 204E a week.
To me as I said before is your health is more important than anything else.You can't spring money from a hat or anywhere else for that matter.
I think if it was me I would simply just leave Ireland and set up somewhere else. Banks don't follow people for money to places thousand's of miles away and even if they did the person still does not have the money to pay.

Can someone please tell me what they would honestly do if they had mortgage of 400K house value 200K and had no job and no sign of one for a few years. and had a wife and say 2 children.Bank will force you out of house as you can't pay then what?


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## haminka1

dodo - before we start singing The Internationale and raise the clenched fist, let's make a clear cut between what this thread is about and what you describe : 

First story : 

I bought a house in the time of property boom because it seemed like a good idea at that time. Now I lost my job, I am desperately trying to pay my mortgage but I just can't do anymore. I can't sell the house and even if I could I still owe the bank the difference between the original and the current value of the house.

Now, these people deserve any kind of advice and help they can get. They are doing their best to keep the roof above their heads for themselves and their families, they know that they are obliged to pay because at the end of the day it was their decision to buy the house.

Now, Palabra and others are a different story - they bought the property, they still have the money to pay they just don't feel like doing this. They don't feel responsible for their own decisions because it was somebody else forcing them to buy the house. Now, this kind of people really makes me see red. What are those people, some brainless puppets? And if they say that they were manipulated before, how are we to know they are capable of thinking on their own right now? 
People must be able to take responsibility for their own actions, right or wrong. 
Just like others, I'm also angry at the irresponsibility of the financial sector, at the developers who built houses from paper and sand and sold them for overblown prices - this doesn't mean I'm expecting the bank to lower my mortgage. I bought the house, it is my obligation to pay for it.

If we are blaming the banks for not thinking in advance, for spending money they didn't have to give us loans and mortgages and then looking for the easy way out by asking the state to save them - what makes us different from them if we say we didn't expect the crash, we borrowed heavily and now refuse to pay?


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## dodo

haminka1 said:


> dodo - before we start singing The Internationale and raise the clenched fist, let's make a clear cut between what this thread is about and what you describe :
> 
> First story :
> 
> I bought a house in the time of property boom because it seemed like a good idea at that time. Now I lost my job, I am desperately trying to pay my mortgage but I just can't do anymore. I can't sell the house and even if I could I still owe the bank the difference between the original and the current value of the house.
> 
> Now, these people deserve any kind of advice and help they can get. They are doing their best to keep the roof above their heads for themselves and their families, they know that they are obliged to pay because at the end of the day it was their decision to buy the house.
> 
> Now, Palabra and others are a different story - they bought the property, they still have the money to pay they just don't feel like doing this. They don't feel responsible for their own decisions because it was somebody else forcing them to buy the house. Now, this kind of people really makes me see red. What are those people, some brainless puppets? And if they say that they were manipulated before, how are we to know they are capable of thinking on their own right now?
> People must be able to take responsibility for their own actions, right or wrong.
> Just like others, I'm also angry at the irresponsibility of the financial sector, at the developers who built houses from paper and sand and sold them for overblown prices - this doesn't mean I'm expecting the bank to lower my mortgage. I bought the house, it is my obligation to pay for it.
> 
> If we are blaming the banks for not thinking in advance, for spending money they didn't have to give us loans and mortgages and then looking for the easy way out by asking the state to save them - what makes us different from them if we say we didn't expect the crash, we borrowed heavily and now refuse to pay?



Point taken with the two different case's, those who can pay but refuse to those who just can't.
But would  like your opinion on the guy who can't pay and is in the negative by 200K even if house was sold and he now has no house to boot.
He will never get a fair break here after defaulting so what should he do?


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## haminka1

dodo, the only thing I'd suggest to a person like that is to get in touch with social services and mabs to get some advice on how to solve such a situation. 
sorry, but social blackmail doesn't work with me - i know these things happen and i know, yes, it could also happen to me. bad things happen, that's life. doesn't mean i'm going to blame others for my own decisions.


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## MandaC

Close friend of mine committed suicide because he could not pay his mortgage.  This person would never dream of putting the keys back through the letterbox and heading off into the sunset.  Would never owe anyone anything or shirk his responsibilities.  That's why what happened happened.   I wish it were different.

I totally agree with Haminkas post. Big difference to cant pay vs. wont pay.  The original poster needs to grow a pair and take responsibility for his own actions.


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## Bronte

Another good post there Haminka but in your first scenario the person with the negative equity will be in debt forever and a day and in the 2nd scenario they will swan off into the sunset with not a care in the world.

There is going to be a big issue that needs to be looked at by government.  Those that bought a house and are now in massive negative equity with no means to get it down, the state will be paying those mortgages (for the banks) if they are on the dole until they get a job and they will spend maybe the rest of their lives repaying the mortgage and never getting anywhere.  No NAMA for them.  If I were in that situation I do wonder what I would do.  I think I'd weight up the figures and say, have the house, here are the keys screw the ICB report, wait 12 years and start again with a clean slate and I'd be better off financially.


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## haminka1

Bronte said:


> Another good post there Haminka but in your first scenario the person with the negative equity will be in debt forever and a day and in the 2nd scenario they will swan off into the sunset with not a care in the world.



Bronte - that's right - that's why I find the attitude of Palabra et co. so gross and immoral ..


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## Chris

fast eddie said:


> We can blame the ECB for cheap credit or Greensspan , pure greed , stupidity but at the end of the day the government failed in one very simply duty . To regulate the banks and reign in their lending practices.



The high risk lending and greed on behalf of the banks is merely a symptom of the problem. The only reason banks are able to behave in the way they did (without breaking rules, laws or regulations and without going bankrupt) is because of the combination of:
1) the central banking system (lender of last resort will not let you go bankrupt) and 
2) the fractional reserve banking system and
3) fiat currencies redeemable for nothing, which are all enforced by governments.
Throwing money at the regulator in order to patch up the symptons with more nonsense 'band-aid' regulations will not solve the underlying problem/disease.


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## dodo

MandaC said:


> Close friend of mine committed suicide because he could not pay his mortgage.
> Sorry to hear about your friend but as I said before life is more important than money,he felt no other way out for him but I know of people who instead of taking the option of suicide took a flight from here and set up new elsewhere owing money.
> I know I would prefer to hear of someone leaving the Country to start a new Rather than leave by suicide.
> Suicide is up by 40% this year and this downturn is the cause of it.


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## fast eddie

Chris said:


> The high risk lending and greed on behalf of the banks is merely a symptom of the problem. The only reason banks are able to behave in the way they did (without breaking rules, laws or regulations and without going bankrupt) is because of the combination of:
> 1) the central banking system (lender of last resort will not let you go bankrupt) and
> 2) the fractional reserve banking system and
> 3) fiat currencies redeemable for nothing, which are all enforced by governments.
> Throwing money at the regulator in order to patch up the symptons with more nonsense 'band-aid' regulations will not solve the underlying problem/disease.


 

Both Canada and Australia have healthy banks because of tight regulation and a long history of both governments saying No to the banks in the face of strong lobbying by the banks .


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## Palabra

I went to the bank before I posted the original thread and offered them several options, as a solution to *our *(i.e. the bank and me) problem.

I would service the loan as an interest only mortgage, and take my chances that in 10 years time the market would have recovered enough for us all to get out alive.
I asked them if they would give me a break with the level of interest I'm currently paying. ( I'm locked into 5 1/2 % for the next three years)
They dismissed both suggestions out of hand. 

People have said that I need to take responsibility for my actions and they are right ,I have to a certain extent been blinded by my anger.
But so do the banks need to take responsibility for their actions.

How can it be right that I and thousands like me should carry *all* the responsibility and burden of this problem, when you consider the lunatic, irresponsible behavior of the banks in all of this.

Should I just lie down and accept what the bank says, or should I "grow a pair" as one OP suggested and make some kind of stand.


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## Afuera

MandaC said:


> Close friend of mine committed suicide because he could not pay his mortgage.  This person would never dream of putting the keys back through the letterbox and heading off into the sunset.  Would never owe anyone anything or shirk his responsibilities.  That's why what happened happened.   I wish it were different.


Sorry to hear about your friend MandaC. I think stories like these serve as a perfect example of why Ireland needs to change it's antiquated bankruptcy laws.

The biggest asset the country has is it's young educated workforce and we are about to send them all packing. Crazy stuff!


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## Chris

fast eddie said:


> Both Canada and Australia have healthy banks because of tight regulation and a long history of both governments saying No to the banks in the face of strong lobbying by the banks .



Canadian and Australian banks are NOT healthy, they are just not as diseased as the US, UK and Ireland. And the reason for this is that both the Australian and Canadian economies are heavily based on natural resource production which has helped them stay afloat and providing very stable income.
Canada has had to bail out banks, albeit not to the same extent as the US. Australia and NZ have had to guarantee its banks' deposits.
That said, their banks didn't expose themselves to as much risk as was common elsewhere. I would attribute this to shrewd practices on the behalf of their banks  and not some "don't take that risk" style regulation set up by some genius regulator.


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## so-crates

Chris said:


> The high risk lending and greed on behalf of the banks is merely a symptom of the problem. The only reason banks are able to behave in the way they did (without breaking rules, laws or regulations and without going bankrupt) is because of the combination of:
> 1) the central banking system (lender of last resort will not let you go bankrupt) and
> 2) the fractional reserve banking system and
> 3) fiat currencies redeemable for nothing, which are all enforced by governments.
> Throwing money at the regulator in order to patch up the symptons with more nonsense 'band-aid' regulations will not solve the underlying problem/disease.



So what exactly do you suggest as a solution? A return to the "gold-standard"?



Palabra said:


> I went to the bank before I posted the original thread and offered them several options, as a solution to *our *(i.e. the bank and me) problem.
> 
> I would service the loan as an interest only mortgage, and take my chances that in 10 years time the market would have recovered enough for us all to get out alive.
> I asked them if they would give me a break with the level of interest I'm currently paying. ( I'm locked into 5 1/2 % for the next three years)
> They dismissed both suggestions out of hand.
> 
> People have said that I need to take responsibility for my actions and they are right ,I have to a certain extent been blinded by my anger.
> But so do the banks need to take responsibility for their actions.
> 
> How can it be right that I and thousands like me should carry *all* the responsibility and burden of this problem, when you consider the lunatic, irresponsible behavior of the banks in all of this.
> 
> Should I just lie down and accept what the bank says, or should I "grow a pair" as one OP suggested and make some kind of stand.



So basically you took a punt on how the interest rates would go and were peeved that your gamble didn't pay off? And now you want to be let off the hook of your interest rates (to which you knowingly agreed) because you feel hard done by that you didn't come out the winner on your gamble? You want to blame others for the choice you made because the reality isn't palatable to you? It isn't because the interest rates are punitive or unreasonable. It isn't because they forced your hand to agree to those rates. It isn't because you can't afford it. It isn't because you are stressed to make the repayments. 5.5 percent is certainly higher than possible now but it is hardly a high point for interest rates in recent history.

Isn't it about time as an adult of 54 that you stopped throwing hissy fits? There are so many people in genuine distress. There so many people who genuinely cannot afford their debt. There are so many people ashamed that they are not able to meet their obligations. Depression, suicide, poverty and hardship are engulfing people who truly and genuinely are trapped. And here you are, solvent but peeved demanding that you get soft treatment because you want it not because you need it.


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## Chris

so-crates said:


> So what exactly do you suggest as a solution? A return to the "gold-standard"?



Preferably, but pretty much any precious metal will do. The important thing is that paper currency be fully redeemable for its underlying backing at any time. This is the only thing that will keep commercial and central banks at bay.
That, however is just one thing that has to happen. In conjunction with this we have to let the market decide what interest rates should be, based on demand for and supply of credit(not some higher powers at central banks), AND the fractional reserve system has to be replaced by a 100% reserve system where banking is split into deposit banking and loan banking.
If this doesn't happen we will continuously see extreme business cycles of bubble manias and total collapses, all leading to financial crises of some scale. People have to wake up to the fact that monetary inflation always leads to price inflation, and that central banks are basically lying when they say they are there to keep price inflation at bay. If they really wanted to do that they would never increase the money supply, which they do in the good times and the bad times.


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