# cost of renovating 1970s house?



## Bolter (14 Aug 2011)

we are currently looking at buying a semi-detached house with existing side extension  built in 1970s with 165m2 plus attic conversion(bath and two bedrooms) 40m2.

we want to
1. change internal layout downstairs (involves knocking wall of extension built in 1980s)
2. new windows (triple or double glazed) throughout
3. rewire
4. refloor
5. replaster
6. insulate (to include external insulation)
7. pitch the roof of existing flat roof extension (25m2)

Can anyone advise on cost of 1-6 and separately on 7?
 in relation to 7 do we need planning permission? the extension is approx 20 years old.
all advices appreciated.


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## Jazz01 (15 Aug 2011)

Hi,

I can't advise on costs, but "costing" something like this is best done by the professionals. If you give you general area, then maybe someone on AAM can advise reputable builders / contractors that you could talk to. Also, if you are changing internal walls, might need more than just a builder to advise you.

I would recommend at least 3 quotations for the work... Seems like a big job... 

Best of luck with it...


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## onq (15 Aug 2011)

Hi aaa,

Someone on AAM who has just done a similar refurbishment may read this and comment.

However, for best results costings are best sought from a selection of contractors experienced in this kind of work using drawings and specifications prepared by professionals.

At the very least you'll need a survey of the house to get accurate costings and someone who understands the "breathability" and "sealing" issues implied by Part L of the Building Regulations.

Going down the external insulation route could address most of these, but you will need to pay careful attention to the details at - 

- Rising Wall
- Thesholds
- Window Sills
- Services, including downpipes 

The latter may need to be moved "out" to avoid cold bridging.

If you're looking to do a "full" upgrade, you will need to consider alternative energy sources including wind, solar, geothermal and air heat pumps.

If you're looking to properly seal your dwelling you should have a blower test done to properly assess the existing structure - wet plaster is quite well sealed in some cases.

If you replace your windows in the same location, re-sealing may be easier.

However relocation of the windows may be required if you're going with an external insulation company or competent person whose details (re)place them towards the outside of the dweling envelope.

At that point you may also need to invest in specialist sealing membranes and your architect/ specialist supplier can advise.

Item 7 needs a talk to your local authority, because they are the ones who make the call on how the Planning and Development legislation is interpreted.

You can argue it under Section 4 (1)(h) of the Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended and under the Exempted Development Schedule of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 as amended.

ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon        as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action   be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in        Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters   at      hand.


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## Bolter (15 Aug 2011)

thanks for that comprehensive response. We are getting a survey tomorrow and subject to that (his advices re; insulating particularly) we will go ahead and start getting quotes.
If no planning issues arise, do I need an architect? If I do, will an architect agree a fixed fee ( as opposed to percentage of renovation costs)?
Are there any questions I should be asking from a surveyor? 
Thanks in advance


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## onq (15 Aug 2011)

If you don't employ a designer you may spend more than you can afford building or change more than you actually need.
If you're doing a comprehensive redesign a good designer will help make the most of what you do and will help you realize your intentions.
A competent architect is trained to survey and inspect buildings, to perform basic structural calculations, detail materials, insulation and weathering issues and co-ordinate it all in a design package relating to both the building and its interior.

The different professions in a building industry arose from specialization as time went by and projects became more complex.
Surveyors, Engineers, BER specialists, Interior Designers all bring specialist skills to the table, and in my experience the proper co-ordination of a team always improves the work, but they should not be brought in until they are required.
Some will argue that a surveyor needs to be brought in from the get-go, but I tend to disagree in this case where a lot of work is intended - see my last point below

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I would strongly suggest you retain an architect for the initial review and design phase, and take his or her advice on what other specialists may be needed.
When the design is looked at in sketch form an engineer may be needed to  assess the building to maintain structural integrity

The architect will organize a visual survey of condition and taped survey of the house sufficient to proceed to design and then take your instruction and prepare final design and tender drawings which can go our for costing.
For the record Quantity Surveyors are a further specialization in the  industry and relate to the drawing up of the Bill of Quantities and it  use in procuring the works for an accurate cost.

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Architects fees have been the subject of several threads on AAM.
Percentage fees, fixed fee package of services and time charges are all available for use in calculating the architect's fees.
It really depends on whether you want a bespoke package, a competent but limited service or an ad hoc arrangement - each have their merits, but in every case you will get what you may for.
In your case I would expect to agree a fixed fee for the survey, with perhaps an hourly rate for the design phase, which can drag on depending on client decisions and instructions.

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Cost of tender advice can vary depending on the quality of the tender drawings and the number of tenderers, but since its the basis for the work, you could be well advised to allow your architect advise you and then to undertake negotiations.
On the other hand, if you have the necessary competence you may take this on board yourself, but by competence I do not mean "if you think you can do it".
I mean that you have discussed tender prices before and procured a good deal.
If not you could be fleeced by the builder.

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There are reasons to employ a surveyor and these can overlap with the employment of an architect.
I don't think you should retain a surveyor at this initial stage if you are intending significant re-design of the dwelling.
I think you should ask an architect to inspect and advise you on your intended work as well as assess the building.

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As to questions you should ask a surveyor, its more what you should expect, over and above a competent architect.
Where extensive work is not anticipated a surveyor will perform adequately, giving you a professional assessment of the existing building and noting any apparent defects.
A good surveyor may also include comments about the generic house type and known faults, or specific problems associated with the general type of construction and house type, flat roof failures, etc.
A professional who knows the area and possibly even the work of the particular the builder may even have some particular knowledge to impart about hidden faults.

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You should also demand to see the BER Certificate for the dwelling as this must be provided for any building for sale or letting.
Any comments provided by the BER Assessor may inform your future course of action in relation to works to the house.

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To get the most out of your agents, you must define what you really want from the house and ensure that the professional you appoint are competent in what they are trained to do to provide the answers you need.
This is why the appointment of an architect is best even before you decide on which house you want, because drawing out your true desires, especially if you are a couple, may direct you to a different property.
I mention the couple aspect because often its only when the architect is appointed that the hard talking starts and the couples finally face the conflicts between where they want to spend their money.
It would be better if this was thrashed out in briefing meetings even before the house was purchased to ensure that the eventual home had what they and they family actually needed.
This is particularly so in the case of older or period properties, where addressing damp and mould problems needs to be part of the initial budget to avoid health problems later on.

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I trust this has been of some use.
Best of luck with it.


ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon         as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in         Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters    at      hand.


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## Shawady (19 Aug 2011)

aaa said:


> If no planning issues arise, do I need an architect? If I do, will an architect agree a fixed fee ( as opposed to percentage of renovation costs)?
> Are there any questions I should be asking from a surveyor?
> Thanks in advance


 
We got an extension done to our 1970's house last year. We also got some insulation work and plumbing work in the existing house.
Our architect charged a set fee.
If you want his details let me know.


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## LouisCribben (19 Aug 2011)

aaa said:


> we are currently looking at buying a semi-detached house with existing side extension built in 1970s with 165m2 plus attic conversion(bath and two bedrooms) 40m2.
> 
> we want to
> 1. change internal layout downstairs (involves knocking wall of extension built in 1980s)
> ...


 

Ok, so you have to buy the house first (at market value presumably)

The scope of the changes you want to make are big and costly......
Nearly as much as building a new house from scratch......(maybe more than building a new house from scratch). And when you are finished, it wont be as good as a new house built to building regs.

Reflooring, replastering, External wall insulation, internal insulation, part new roof, re-wireing , knocking and moving walls, windows. That's nearly everything. (All expensive bespoke work).

You'd want to do your maths, will the market value of your house when you are finished be as much as the money spent buying and renovating it...

(I suspect it wont be, unless you buy the house cheap, or do some of the work yourself)


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## Bolter (19 Aug 2011)

just to update. we were advised it would cost at least 100,000 euro (that's before even considering extending it) It needs a new roof as well as everything else. We did our figures and unfortunately we have to pass. I naively thought a 1970s house would require less renovation work than an edwardian. just have to keep looking. Thanks for all the advice. Will no doubt be coming back to this forum when I can find something else.


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## onq (20 Aug 2011)

I'm surprised to hear a 1970's house needs a new roof, never mind €100,000 spent on it to bring it up to habitable condition (I'm presuming this is what you meant, since it isn't clear)

We bought a in 60's house and the roof and felt are in good condition (touch wood).

You will find several four bed houses in south county Dublin in the €400-500K range and the moment.

Original houses will need work doing to them to bring them up to speed with windows, insulation and heating systems.


ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon          as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal  action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in          Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the  matters    at      hand.


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## hastalavista (20 Aug 2011)

Not surprised with the 100k, 
Windows were going to be 20 and the external insulation another 25..

I think the spec was going to go beyond bringing up to habitable condition.

The OP did not mention heating system upgrade or redoing the bathrooms....


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## onq (21 Aug 2011)

I'm drawing a distinction between _habitable_ as opposed to _compliant_. 

_Habitable_ in this context means -

- weatherproof, roof, floors and walls imperforate, windows and doors in place, (whether double or single glazed) with working (not leaking) sanitation, heating system, water supply, no significant water ingress or incidence of damp, working kitchen etc. - i.e. fit for human habitation.

In other words, its not a ruin that needs 100K spent on it just to make it habitable as defined above.

 In the case of an already habitable house 100K would be to bring it close to _compliant_ standard.

ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon           as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal   action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in           Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the   matters    at      hand.


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