# My Story: 2 Incomes, 2 Kids, Debt out of control



## Turtledove

First Time Poster. Long time reader of Posts. I'm hoping putting this down in black and white will make a difference to my situation.*

Age:*
  36

*Spouse’s/Partner's age:*
  37

*Annual gross income from employment or profession:*
  E45   (Net 2400)
*Annual gross income spouse:*
  E65     (Net 3000)

*Type of employment:*
  Public Sector
  Spouse Private sector 


*Expenditure pattern:*
  Poor Money Management.  Living beyond our means for a long time, that said have never defaulted on any payments.

*Rough estimate of value of home*
  E310,000 

*Mortgage on home*
  E425,000  100% mortgage over 35 years (commenced 2006)

  Owing E397,000 - we've been paying our mortgage for 5 years now.
  No missed payments to date.

*Mortgage provider:*
  BOI

*Type of mortgage: *
  Fixed rate

*Interest rate*
  5.39%

*Other borrowings – car loans/personal loans etc*
  Car Loan: 320pm over 5 years (6 months in)

  BOI Credit Card Visa: 9k 
  AIB Credit Card Visa: 2K
  BOI Credit Card MasterCard: 4k
  Credit Union 250pm over 5 years (This loan was to consolidate credit card debt.  It worked for year.  Now back at same scenario.)

*Do you pay off your full credit card balance each month?*
  No, pay off minimum

*Savings and investments:*
  3,000 in shares in Credit Union 

*Do you have a pension scheme?*
  Yes, I pay E230pm into pension
  Plus Partner pays 250 pm into pension and AVC of 250 pm

*Do you own any investment or other property?*
  No.

*Ages of children:*
  2 and 3 and a half


*Life insurance:*
  Yes.

*What specific question do you have or what issues are of concern to you?*

  We are almost three years into a five-year fixed rate at 5.39%.  Took out Mortgage 2006, fixed it in 2008 (interest rates were increasing at the time, fixed at level we thought we could at least pay if rate climbed higher). Going on the fixed rate proved to be a disastrous decision given the plummeting interest rates months later and as a result have been paying a significant proportion of our income in repayments ever since. 

  No matter what we do, at the start of each month all our money is swallowed up in debt repayments leaving us with nothing, hence we are using our credit cards for day to day expenses to get us through the month.  Obviously not a good situation. We are now at a point where we are now maxing out all our available credit cards.  

 We are aware that we are to blame for where we are now, but we are looking for a way to loosen the grip the mortgage (2250pm) and other debt has on us. 

Along with tackling the obvious such as cutting down on groceries, and lunches, what are our options here? Should we look to pay interest only on our mortgage?  Would the bank play ball given our situation? How would we go about doing this? Would interest only even make a difference?  Should we even look to sell the house and start renting to find some breathing space? 


  Any advice appreciated
  Thanks 

Turtledove


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## Turtledove

Some other detail:
  Net income: 2400 (me), 3000 (partner’s) = 5400
  Child allowance (2 kids) = 300
  Mortgage relief = 330
  Childcare = 1000pm
  Car lease = 320pm balance 17k approx
Mortgage = 2250pm
  BOI Credit Card Visa = owing 9k 
AIB Credit Card Visa = owing 2K 
BOI Credit Card MasterCard = owing 4k 
Credit Union Loan = 250pm over 5 years (5,500k remaining)
  Petrol = 150pm (two cars)
  Parking = 75pm (need car for work)
  Groceries = 700pm 
  Lunch = 100pm
  House insurance = 55pm
  Life assurance = 80pm
  Mobile = pay as you go 20 pm each
  ESB = 75pm 
  Gas = 90pm 
  Sky = Cancelled it
  Eircom Phone and Broad band = 95pm
  Waste Disposal = 30pm


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## Mpsox

Why is your partern paying 250pm into AVC, and why are you paying €100pm in lunches?, scrap those 2 and you'll have paid back the entire AIB card and over €2k of the BOI card in 12 months.


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## Bronte

I did a full answer on this and it's disappeared.

You have not said what the repayments on the credit cards are.  I make your outgoings at 5290 on an income of 5800.

You and your partner need to sit down and do a budget.  You should not be using your credit cards to pay for ordinary spending.  Are you both bad with money, it needs to be tackled and agreed upon.  

As you've consolidated once I do not think you should try for interest only.  Will only lead to more debt.  

How on earth is the 100 for lunch justified?  Also the spending of 17K on a car in the last six months despite all the debt?  Are two cars and all the costs associated with them absolutely needed, is there no public transport.  You need to turn off the lights and wear fleeces to get the utilities down.  Groceries, you need a meal plan, there are some great posts on this but in any case if you have to you do beans on toast and spag bol for a year to cut the bill and pay back the credit cards.  What is the interest rate on them?  Pay back the highest interest rate first.  Any possibility to move to an interest only deal?  Cards need to be cut up in any case.  

Either of you able to get a weekend of evening job for extra income.  

Life insurance looks high, smokers maybe?  Term insurance is the cheapest.  Have a look into that.  

It's not the debt that has it's grip on you, it's the spending.  A year or two of tough choices and it's doable.


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## horusd

Your house insurance at €660.00 per annum seems expensive on a house valued at 310K. Shop around for a better deal . You should also shop around for a better deal on life assurance which is costing you 960 pa. Have you shopped around for better deals on Gas & Electricity,combo offers from Bord Gais, or Airtricity? Could you reduce the heat settings by one or two degrees do you have energy saving bulbs etc? Your Eircom phone & BB is costing 1140 pa This is very expensive. Have you shopped around? Check out callcosts.ie. I have very adequate BB from vodafone and phone @ 45 pm. Your bin charges are 360 pa. Can you recycle and compost to avoid some of these? Can you walk to avoid some petrol costs? Could you set a budget for petrol with a reduction of 10-20% say? Could you reduce groceries by a similar amt by shopping in bulk in Aldi,Lidl ? Try to set a target of 630 (10%) and see if you can manage it. That would save you 840 pa.  Can you negotiate a reduction in childcare fees? Do you keep a spending diary to see where the money is going exactly?  Make  saving into a game so it doesnt seem like hard graft. Have you considered free to air TV so at least you can have something decent to watch with a fixed one off cost? Finally have you a financial plan? If not you need to do this rather than coasting along. Search AAM for financial planning tools/programs.


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## Guest105

The first thing that strikes me here is your mortgage, it's nearly 7 times your combined annual net income which is extremely high. It's a huge noose to have around your neck for the next 30 years.

You could try selling and moving down to a smaller more affordable sized home and in the meantime try and come to some sort of arrangement with the bank regarding the negative equity. i wouldn't recommend interest only, you are only prolonging the agony.

Other monthly spendign thaat could be drastically reduced include changing over to Bord Gais for your electricity and reducing your usage.

Do you really need to spend €95 a month on home phone and broadband? look at your mobile phone package and get one of those monthly deals for €20 which includes 100+ minutes to other networks and then get one of those mobile dongles for €20 for your broadband. You will instantly save €75.

Sell the expensive car and buy a cheaper one for 4 or 5 thousand.

Buy your shopping in Aldi/Lidl and do a shopping bill

Cut down on the cost of your waste disposal, recycle more and look at bringing the waste to your local waste disposal centre yourself, it will drastically cut down on the cost. 

Invest in lunchboxes and flasks, believe me you will recoup the cost in no time.

as another poster said...Stop paying AVC's

Can you get an interest only credit card and move all the others into it, then make a concrete efford to get rid of all credit card debt asap, then slice the card into two pieces!

Good luck OP, at least you are taking the first steps by posting here.


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## wbbs

Start a spending diary, it is essential in your situation, once you have addressed where the money is going and how much you can cut back, groceries is an obvious one here way too high, then you can see exactly what the minimum you need to live on per month is.   

Once this is under control then I would suggest asking bank for interest only for 6 mths or so to get on top of credit card debt, HOWEVER this is after you get a grip on spending.  As your mortgage bank is also the holder of two of your credit cards they might be open to giving you interest only providing the saving went straight to the credit card bills.  That combined with cut backs in spending would enable to clear these as soon as possible and needless to say not using them again.

Hindsight is great but that car loan that you only have for 6 mths was a dire decision, can it be sold or traded down to cheaper model?


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## goingforgold

Your petrol costs are 150PM, which is 35pw for two cars, ie 17.50 per week for each car. That would suggest that you both have an extremely small commute to work. Do you need two cars? Can one person not drop the other off at work first? Can public transport be used? You need to get your lifestyle in line with your spending asap, and look at the advice of the other posts. Also car tax and insurance for both cars are not included in your outgoings. Best of luck.


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## Turtledove

Thanks for the suggestions.  Just to reply to a couple of the comments:

Regarding the Life Insurance - we got this through BOI when buying the house.  It is basic enough I think, covers the mortgage in case of death. We are not smokers (or drinkers either, socializing is a rarity these days, we do eat out as a family once or twice a month, but shouldn't I guess)

Regarding the Cars - yes we could probably do without one of the cars, my partners trip to work is not that much.  Looking at the petrol costs again I would say it is currently more like 250 rather than 150.

I did my best with the detail, but I realise now that there are other expenses that I don't have listed, Car tax, car inusrance, clothing, childrens toys, medical costs, attending Weddings etc.  There are months where the Groceries go to 800/900 pm.  

The Phone bill does seem high. I will shop around.
Waste disposal is with M r B inman

The Mortgage is a noose around the neck alright, and feeling heavier every day.  It's a little demoralising that light at the end of the tunnel could be 30 years away. 7 times salary now, but we were only earning 40k each when we got it.  Our salaries have increased but so have our expenses with kids etc.  I appreciate that it is not as bad as many other posters on this site but we do need to get off this slippery slope.  I would be the saver in the relationship, my partner is an impulsive spender, but we do not have much wiggle room at the beginning of the month either way.  We both definitely want to change, reviewing our finances even for this post has been a wake up call.

Can we even sell the house with it in negative equity?


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## truthseeker

Turtledove said:


> .......we do eat out as a family once or twice a month, but shouldn't I guess)


 
Definitely not while youre trying to get control of your debt - the kids are too young to care about eating out - its an unnecessary luxury.



Turtledove said:


> .......Regarding the Cars - yes we could probably do without one of the cars, my partners trip to work is not that much. Looking at the petrol costs again I would say it is currently more like 250 rather than 150.


 
You need to downgrade the more expensive car - it was madness taking out that car loan only 6 months ago with the level of debt you both have, you should seriously consider getting rid of one car completely and having the remainin car as a much cheaper option than you currently have. 



Turtledove said:


> .......I did my best with the detail, but I realise now that there are other expenses that I don't have listed, Car tax, car inusrance, clothing, childrens toys, medical costs, attending Weddings etc.


 
You really need to start a spending diary to figure out what you are really spending on - there are loads of things we spend on without even realising.



Turtledove said:


> .......There are months where the Groceries go to 800/900 pm.


 
There is absolutely no way the grocery bill should be coming in this high. You should be able to keep it to around 500 a month if you budget, make a list of what you need and stick religiously to the list.

On top of this you say you spend 100 a month on lunches? Why? Why does the grocery shop not include bread/a chicken/cheese or something to make sandwiches with each day?

And the AVCs should definitely be cancelled. Other posters have made useful suggestions also. 

Can either yourself or your partner take a part time job to try and get the debt down in a shorter time?


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## alaskaonline

Turtledove said:


> *Rough estimate of value of home*
> E310,000
> 
> *Mortgage on home*
> E425,000  100% mortgage over 35 years (commenced 2006)
> 
> Owing E397,000 - we've been paying our mortgage for 5 years now.
> No missed payments to date.



There are a few things standing out reading your post. According to the above you have only paid off 28k within 5 years and yet you state further down that your monthly mortgage payment is € 2250. Did you remortgage or something? Numbers don't add up for me...



> Child allowance (2 kids) = 300


 - CB is 280 pm



> Credit Union Loan = 250pm over 5 years (5,500k remaining)
> 3,000 in shares in Credit Union


 € 2500 is owed. As Mpsox stated why are guys paying 250pm into AVC, and also paying €100pm  in lunches? If you scrap those 2 you can easily pay one of the loans off incl. the CU one. 	



> Parking = 75pm (need car for work)


 there is no free parking anywhere near your work? Even if it requires you to walk let's say ten minutes? I know many people in work who leave their cars in a free park zone and walk the rest of the way.



> Groceries = 700pm


 you stated in a further comment that it's up to 800/900pm. Where do you shop? This is a lot for two adults and two small kids especially as you put your lunch extra. Aldi & Lidl should cut these costs in half.



> Lunch = 100pm


 this is crazy money. Cook an extra portion in the evening at home, put it in a container and bring it to work with you. If you don't have a microwave there, bring sandwiches with you because you're eating warm in the evening anyway. Same goes for juices, water etc. You can buy pre-packed stuff cheap in Aldi & Lidl.



> House insurance = 55pm


 unless you claimed off your insurance before I also don't see why you pay over € 600. This is a lot. Shop around.



> ESB = 75pm
> Gas = 90pm


 in my opinion I think both can be cut as well. As someone else stated before, shop around, look at the competitor rates. I presume you've given us an average rate rather than just the winter bill? If it's the winter bill, it's ok but if you use a similar rate in the spring and summer, it can be decreased.



> Eircom Phone and Broad band = 95pm


 I pay € 50 pm with the competitor and it incl. Phone, TV & Broadband. Again, shop around.



> Waste Disposal = 30pm


 I presume you're getting billed quarterly? € 90 a quarter is a lot. You should at least be able to decrease it to € 60 a quarter, a tener less a month. Are you recycling? If not, start doing it. You'll be surprised how much longer it takes to fill up the black bin (I was when I started it).


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## Turtledove

Bronte said:


> I did a full answer on this and it's disappeared.
> 
> You have not said what the repayments on the credit cards are.  I make your outgoings at 5290 on an income of 5800.



Credit Card Payments are about 450. I'd have to check, but about that.


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## Turtledove

alaskaonline said:


> There are a few things standing out reading your post. According to the above you have only paid off 28k within 5 years and yet you state further down that your monthly mortgage payment is € 2250. Did you remortgage or something? Numbers don't add up for me...



Thanks for the comments.  Didn't remortgage, figures are correct as stated. Have been paying 2250 for almost 3 years. Previous to that we have been paying the mortgage at a lower % for 2 years (can't remember the % off hand, around 3.5%).  We are 3 years into a new fixed arrangement.  As it is fixed I guess I'm paying off less principal and more interest.  Overpayment not allowed.


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## pebbledash

Switich your life insurance from BOI's own product. We pay €28 a month to cover a mortgage of 260k. Pays off mortgage with remainder going to surviving spouse. I imagine you could get life insurance for about €55 if you go to a broker.

Grocery bills seem very high. Buying in bulk and freezing meat saves a lot. As 2 adults our monthly shop, including stuff for lunches is €200. We top up by about €15 a week for fresh fruit and vegetables and milk. So that's €260 a month. I reckon if we had two kids we could keep it to €500 pm. We split the shop between lidl and tesco. Check tesco prices online and go to lidl/aldi with your shopping list and just get what's cheaper there - tesco are cheaper for some things. We could save more money on groceries if we bought own brand food and toiletries but we don't.


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## shweeney

*Phone bills*: Vodafone do line rental, 8Mb broadband and all local and national landline calls for €45pm.  For PAYG mobiles I think Tesco are the best value as they double any credit you purchase.

*Groceries*: we (with 3 kids) aim for around 600pm, but thats with one of us at home and the kids eating lunches etc here - you should be able to get by for less.

*Cars*:  As others have said, if its at all practical, ditch one of them - it costs a minimum of €1000 per year in tax, insurance and servicing to keep a car on the road, before you even drive it 1 KM.

Good luck, your mortgage is a real weight its true, but there's plenty of scope for reducing the bills elsewhere.


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## Bronte

Turtledove said:


> The Mortgage is a noose around the neck alright, and feeling heavier every day. It's a little demoralising that light at the end of the tunnel could be 30 years away. ?


 
Your are incorrect in your assessment.  You can afford the mortgage, but through your choices of lifestyle spending you have consistently racked up other debt and it is the cost of servicing this combined with living beyond your means that has you where you are now.  If you bring yourself back into budget and do the necessary adjustments to mentally get to focusing on paying back the debt with every penny you have, and you have plenty, once the short term crippling debts are paid off you can then tackle paying down the mortgage with overpayments.  

The issue of why an expensive purchase was made in the light of other debts has to be tackled and other such choices such as going out for a meal once a month.  

You mentioned selling the house in the original post to get rid of the problem.  This will not solve the issue for you.  In any case your negative equity is likely to be a lot more than you stated as I would imagine a 2006 purchase of 425K would only be worth 200K but I'm open to correction on this.  A bank is not going to let you do this, not on your good income. 

An interesting exercise for both of you would be to look at the credit card bills for the last year and see how much you are actually paying in interest/penalties.  If you actually added up that plus the credit union loan and the car repayments imagine how much money you would have to live on each month if you didn't have those payments.  Imagine then how quickly you could start to get down the mortgage and save.


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## amtc

This thread and some of the other Money Makeover ones are really annoying me. 

How can someone say that €100 a month for lunch is crazy. That’s a fiver a day! 

We have to have some pleasures in life. For four days a week I spend that, but on Friday normally have a nice lunch. That saves my sanity. 

Also many of the makeovers forget the realities of life – this week alone I have had a €55 doctor fee, €88 prescription, taxi home from doctor as couldn’t see to get bus/drive, had to get my hair cut at €37, new glasses at €155, dry cleaning cause someone poured a pint over me at €20, broken dishwasher to be fixed at €100, new cooker switch at €50….what am I supposed to do, live in squalor…!


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## horusd

amtc said:


> *This thread and some of the other Money Makeover ones are really annoying me. *
> 
> How can someone say that €100 a month for lunch is crazy. That’s a fiver a day!
> 
> We have to have some pleasures in life. For four days a week I spend that, but on Friday normally have a nice lunch. That saves my sanity.
> 
> Also many of the makeovers forget the realities of life – this week alone I have had a €55 doctor fee, €88 prescription, taxi home from doctor as couldn’t see to get bus/drive, had to get my hair cut at €37, new glasses at €155, dry cleaning cause someone poured a pint over me at €20, broken dishwasher to be fixed at €100, new cooker switch at €50….what am I supposed to do, live in squalor…!


 
No one I think is suggesting squalor as an option. But financial security is arguably more important for sanity. So the focus here is on reducing this stress, or *financial distress*. The realities of life happen, and because of this everyone should have a *contingency fund* to meet the unexpected such as you outline. But you cannot build a fund if you don't plan for it, and save for it. And part of planning is about having a few bob to enjoy the odd luxury. OP's ask what they can do to get out of distress, and people respond to that. Attitude is really important here, if you view it as an impostion, then you don't have to take the advice, but like everything there is a cost to doing this.


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## horusd

Turtledove, you might find this spreadsheet useful for planning. http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=145557&highlight=budget+spreadsheet

This will help you get a handle on your finances. 

You might also consider getting rid of homephone and using SKYPE, it's free or you can buy credit for calls to landlines. For the BB you might consider a mobile plug in. I think they start at around 20pm. Straight off that would save you 75 pm or 900 pa.


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## sam h

> How can someone say that €100 a month for lunch is crazy. That’s a fiver a day!


 
I always find rounding thing up makes it easier to get a prespective on things....so your €5 per day is €1200 pa.....which would pay for all you "emergency spending" & still have €695 left over.  It is generally these small things like papers, daily coffees etc that can add up to a huge amount, with nothing to show for it.  



> Also many of the makeovers forget the realities of life – this week alone I have had a €55 doctor fee, €88 prescription, taxi home from doctor as couldn’t see to get bus/drive, had to get my hair cut at €37, new glasses at €155, dry cleaning cause someone poured a pint over me at €20, broken dishwasher to be fixed at €100, new cooker switch at €50….what am I supposed to do, live in squalor…!


 
Many of your expenses are not essentials & if you are stuggling to make end meet you would have begged a lift from someone, only replace glasses if the othere were completely usless/broken, dry cleaning??, wash the dishes by hand.  

The OP has posted on here looking for advice as they are overspending & people are taking the time to contribute some possible solutions - you offered none.

OP, I definately think you food bill is way to high, you need to cut back by planning what meals you will cook & budget accordingly.  You mention about €800 on groceries, €100 on lunches & a meal out a couple of times a year - this could be halved with proper planning & shopping for bargains.

AVC's should wait until you have surplus cash - no point in saving for retirement when you are struggling day to day.

Sell the expensive car if possible 

Definately fo a daily track of exactly what you spending as the little things can add up

Not much you can do about the house at the moment due to negative equity & fixed rate.  But start to do your homework for when the fixed rate ends so you can be ready to do whatever is best for you at the time.

Have you cut up the credit cards?

HTH's


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## Ceist Beag

Lots of good suggestions here. As others have said your food bill is too high. It should be comfortable enough to get by on €100-€120 per week. Make your lunch at home to bring to work. That should save you around €300 per month on your current spending.
I think if you break down your spending as suggested (use the excellent spreadsheet link provided above) and just set some goals for yourself, you'll find over the course of the rest of this year that it becomes easier to see where you can cut costs further to make things a bit easier.


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## TRipley

the mortgage is not the issue here - since when did people start measuring in multiples of net income? in multiples of gross income its x3.6. This is not excessive at the beginning of a mortgage. The issue if anything is the long term and the immediate high interest rate (which might improve in 2 years anyway as you come off that fixed rate).

The focus point as others have pointed out is the lifestyle debt which you have identified as being an issue anyway so behaviourly you're on the right track which is the first thing......


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## pebbledash

It's important to say well done on taking the step to tackle the spending.
Anxiety around finances can often cause people to bury their head in the sand and make things worse. It can become hard to even look at a bank balance. Well done on writing everything down and looking for advice. Best of luck with the budgeting.


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## Mpsox

amtc said:


> This thread and some of the other Money Makeover ones are really annoying me.
> 
> How can someone say that €100 a month for lunch is crazy. That’s a fiver a day!
> 
> We have to have some pleasures in life. For four days a week I spend that, but on Friday normally have a nice lunch. That saves my sanity.
> 
> Also many of the makeovers forget the realities of life – this week alone I have had a €55 doctor fee, €88 prescription, taxi home from doctor as couldn’t see to get bus/drive, had to get my hair cut at €37, new glasses at €155, dry cleaning cause someone poured a pint over me at €20, broken dishwasher to be fixed at €100, new cooker switch at €50….what am I supposed to do, live in squalor…!


 
No arguement that you have to have some pleasure in life, but if you were bringing your own lunch to work, you'd probably have saved enough money in a month to pay for the hair cut and dry cleaning. It's not necessarily about cutting out pleasure, it's about spending more cleverly


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## Turtledove

Thanks again everyone for all the feedback.  Bit the bullet and just cut up the credit cards! No going back.

Some more thoughts, I know some of these questions are probably basic, but any tips on:
Managing the cost of social commitments, e.g. Kids Birthdays, going to Weddings, entertaining Friends.  Are these luxuries we can no longer afford?
Whats the most cost effective way to Grocery shop? One bulk buy per month or week, or a few disciplined trips when needed?
A few posters have mentioned an interest only credit card?
We also have monitored E ircom Phone Watch (25pm)  so is this also a waste, does it mean I can't drop the Eircom landline?


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## horusd

Cutting up the cards is just part of the plan Turtledove, a good start tho, and well done on beginning to tackle the problems. But I suggest you take some time and plan what you are going to do. Use the earlier posts as a rough "to Do List" and the planner to get on top of what you are spending. Set targets to tackle each one, ie deal with phone, electricity and Gas etc by Fri, start spending diary tomorrow,complete budget by Sat and so on. Tackle them one by one and prioritize them based on importance and impact. BTW make sure you bring the other half on board. 

On the groceries,you need to budget. Try a 10% reduction to 630 or so and see how that works. You won't starve. Buy in bulk and take up offers if available. Do a food menu for a week, use leftovers for sambos etc. If you have a freezer use it for items you can make in bulk like bolognese, stews, soups etc. There are some fantastic recipes online from Jamie Oliver and the like. Set a meals budget and stick to it. Buy treats in bulk for kids etc. Set up an entertainment/presents budget, and fund it from some of the savings. You can enterain friends without being extravagent, use your imagination to come up with nice dinners, home baked breads etc. Above all, make this budgetting exercise fun! Believe me it can be either seen as a dreary hairshirt imposition or an exciting challenge. As soon as you start to succeed you are going to be so pleased with your progress it will make you want to do more. Budgetting is a learning experience, you've started to tackle it so well done and best of luck. 

PS Yep, ditch the phonewatch if this is not needed. 25 pm = 300 pa.


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## niceoneted

Well done on cutting up the cards. The 0% interest cards are where companies take on your existing balance and there is 0% interest on that balance for a period of time be it 6/8/12 months. Its a matter of finding out who is still offering them and applying. 
If you get one it will just make it easier to pay off what you owe as there will be no interest adding onto the balance but I would suggest if you get one the minute you get it cut it up to. 

In relation to kids parties, your are young yet but as they get older, bake buns, make sandwiches, cocktail sausages rice krispie buns cake, biscuits etc. Receipes readily available. Make parcels for games such as pass the parcel, pin the tail on the donkey etc. So many go to the cinema and play centres that can cost a fortune the kids will be delighted with the traditional one as it will be different. Put on invites no presents please just your presence. Know of someone who did this recently and they were the one to start the trend. 
If you know of a wedding or other special occassion coming up start putting a few bob by for it. I never give cash gives but buy luxury items in the sales as gifts. 
Same for kids presents nearly always half price after xmas. 

Do a weekly manu plan and work out your shopping form this. Select dishes that are cheaper to make like, bolognese, shepards pie, stew, home made soups etc. If you see special offer on breads buy few loaves and freeze them. 
Check the special offers each week and buy them in bulk but only if they are things that you buy ordinarily. 
ALWAYS bring a list.

Phone watch a waste, having the alarm is a deterent in itself, remember to always set it and use it whether you are there or not. 

Utilities like ESB and GAS can well be reduced esp given you are not in the house during the day. Look at when you put the heat on and off. Can you shorten the time. If I think its going to be chilly  in the mornings I set it to come on for 15 mins before I rise. Thus the chill has gone out of the house and your usually moving around getting sorted so keeping warm. turn down the settings slightly. Don't have it just coming on because it is such a time of year judge by the weather. Invest in good duvets. I did got all duck down. 
ESB don't leave lights on, invest in CFL's there are lots of offers on these. If you have a lot of those down lights that use halogen bulbs switch to LED's. Less usage and better lighting. If you use dish washer use only when full or perhaps restrict use and wash the dishes a couple of the days. don't leave appliances on standby plug them out. Perhaps invest in sockets that you can turn off if you don't have them. 
I use vodafone for BBand land line, I pay about €40 a month.


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## Bronte

pebbledash said:


> It's important to say well done on taking the step to tackle the spending.
> Anxiety around finances can often cause people to bury their head in the sand and make things worse. It can become hard to even look at a bank balance. Well done on writing everything down and looking for advice. Best of luck with the budgeting.


 
That's a very good point pebbledash.  Already Turtledove is making progress, one is coming on here recognising there is a problem and two cutting up the credit cards.  Three should be to have a family conference with spouse on finance.  Nothing like a team effort.  

Further to the other advice, when you have the extra money for the savings you are going to make you must decide which debt you will tackle first.  This will give you a sense of achievement.  You can decide on say the 2K credit card first, you'll have that quickly cleared and it will give you impetus to tackle the other ones (if you prefer tackle the highest interest rate card first).  Goals are important.


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## Bronte

amtc said:


> This thread and some of the other Money Makeover ones are really annoying me.
> 
> How can someone say that €100 a month for lunch is crazy. That’s a fiver a day!
> 
> We have to have some pleasures in life. For four days a week I spend that, but on Friday normally have a nice lunch. That saves my sanity.
> 
> Also many of the makeovers forget the realities of life – this week alone I have had a €55 doctor fee, €88 prescription, taxi home from doctor as couldn’t see to get bus/drive, had to get my hair cut at €37, new glasses at €155, dry cleaning cause someone poured a pint over me at €20, broken dishwasher to be fixed at €100, new cooker switch at €50….what am I supposed to do, live in squalor…!


 
Not sure what your point is.  If people have money problems then they have to bring their spending down to their income, they have to learn to save and they have to repay debts.  To do this one has to make cuts.  In the context of that 100 Euro a month on something that is discretionary is a no no.  Don't think anyone was making the point that buying a sandwich or going out to lunch is wrong per say.   

In your particular week presumable you had savings to pay for all the expenses you listed.  You hardly put those expenses on credit.  The OP has no savings so things like this can really throw a spanner in the works.

In relation to your squalor point.  Not cutting your hair, not fixing the dishwasher and not doing the dry cleaning would not lead to one living in squalor.  That's far from squalor.


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## truthseeker

Turtledove said:


> Managing the cost of social commitments, e.g. Kids Birthdays, going to Weddings, entertaining Friends. Are these luxuries we can no longer afford?


 
I think you can still afford these things but you have to think smart about it. Usually a wedding has the following costs associated with it:
An outfit
A present
A day drinking
Travel 
A night in the hotel

So from the above, dont buy new outfits, buy an actual present - as someone mentioned get something in a sale, or be creative and make something - when I got married a friend brought her camera, took lots of pics and made me a beautiful photo album as a present - it was a wonderful present. One of you drive to it, and that way only one person is drinking, and dont stay in the hotel, let the driver drive you both home - you really can go to a wedding cheaply if you do this.

As for kids parties - same applies, cheap thoughtful present, same clothes, if you are throwing the party yourself arrange it in such a way that you are not feeding a meal to hordes of children, just snacks.

Entertaining friends, dont do it with a meal, ask them round, tell them to bring their own booze, and provide cheap snacks (chips and dips, or LIDL frozen party snacks).



Turtledove said:


> Whats the most cost effective way to Grocery shop? One bulk buy per month or week, or a few disciplined trips when needed?


 
We tend to do one large shop a month where we buy tinned goods, dried goods (like rice, sugar etc..) and then most weeks we buy fresh fruit/veg/staples (like milk/bread) in LIDL, and fresh meat (I buy in a butchers and avail of his deals). Generally there is a weekend a month where we dont shop at all and just live on the stuff in the freezer and whatever bits of fruit and veg are left over.

For lunches I buy an oyster of ham in the butchers (it costs a fiver if I buy it with a chicken - a tenner for both) and cut it in half, freeze half and boil the other half and slice it and use it for sandwiches for the week. I also cut the chicken in half, freeze half, roast the other half and use it for same - there is 2 weeks worth of lunches in a chicken and a ham - for a tenner. You may also get a dinner out of them as well.

I write a list before going grocery shopping and stick to the list. I used to find myself binning jars of stuff that Id bought to try or binning meat that had been sitting in the freezer for months waiting for me to make some particular meal with it - now I just buy what we actually like to eat and thats it. 

LIDL/ALDI are cheap for the cleaning and personal hygiene products as well.

I also shop on ebay for bargains. Just last week I bought 2 pairs of summer sandals for 3 pound sterling each, the postage was 4 pounds - so net cost was less than a tenner per pair - and Ive already worn one pair to a wedding and been complimented on them.


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## laobhise

Agree with other posts about making a shopping list and sticking to it. We do a weekly shop from supermarket for tinned food and jars, cleaning products etc but then I go to local wholesale butchers once a fortnight and stock up on meats and freeze bits. I buy fruit and veg every week with weekly shop or from local shop depending on if I have time. We set a budget of €120 a week for all groceries for 2 adults and 1 child. We often dont spend all this and anything left I put in a money box we have for treats/savings etc.

There is a great excel sheet that someone posted on here before which has a pie chart at the end and you can see how much of your disposable income goes on different categories and how much surplus/deficit you have at the end of each month-definitely use some tool like this. 

Also my husband and I give ourselves a weekly allowance of €120 per week each which we lift from the bank each Friday. We use this for weekly petrol, lunches, credit, lotto etc. Any money that we have left over come the following Fri we put in the money box. We find this works for us- just work out what you can afford each month. This way if you can save on your weekly allowance then you can have a treat and means you are more likely to bring in lunches etc. You could compete with each other to see who will have more left at the end of a week- ha ha!! 

With the money box then every time if goes over €150 we lodge the money in the post office for holidays/rainy day etc but we have €150 handy for a take away as a treat or family day out, emergencies with house etc. However, you might want to clear your debts first. 

Also make sure you claim back all medical expenses, bin tag tax etc and pay debts or save it etc.


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## Guest105

laobhise said:


> Also my husband and I give ourselves a weekly allowance of €120 per week each which we lift from the bank each Friday. We use this for weekly petrol, lunches, credit, lotto etc.


 

That's €240 a week for treats apart from petrol, few families can afford such a luxury.

I think the aim here is to steer the OP away from treats such as lunches and lotto until such time his finances are in order.


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## txirimiri

Hi Turtledove, well done for making a start on financial controls! You've had loads of good advice on the thread, but I thought I would also reply as we have almost exactly the same household net income per month (5400) and are also a family of 2 adults and 2 smallies, so thought it might be helpful to let you know how we structure things. Our mortage is similar to yours but our childcare bill is a good bit higher - between the 2, we are paying out 3600 per month which is probably equivalent to what you pay out in mortage, childcare and debt repayments. We manage very well on the remaining balance. 

First thing that is crucial - after using the planning spreadsheet to work out your monthly outgoings, set up a day to day spreadsheet into which you put EVERYTHING you spend. It is an excellent way to identify where you are overspending and get an exact picture of whether your costs are within your budget and where you need to cut down. If you want to PM me your email I can send you the one that we use. 

Some other thoughts (might be repeating what other posters have said)

Elec/Gas - we have changed to Airtricity and have got a 16% reduction in unit cost (incl direct debit and paperless billing). Thermostat is set at 19 degrees max instead of 21. We use chimney balloons in winter to keep draughts out and I manically go around closing doors, switching lights off etc

Phone/Tv/Broadband - have basic package wiht UPC, 70 a month. Has plenty of kids channels and all the mainstream ones. 

Waste - we have a compost bin and also make the most of the green bin - usually get away with 1 or 2 black bags a week at 3 euro per bag

Car/house/life/health insurance - shop around. Worth taking the time to ring loads of brokers and fill in lots of online forms. Work out the minimum you need - we have just cut our VHI bill in half by changing to a different plan without loosing any essential cover. Likeswise, up your excess and drop accidental damage from your house insurance and you should save a package. Depending on the age of your car, think about getting third party instead of comprehensive.

Kids - most activites we do with the kids are free, park, picnics, exhibitions, walks, visit to friends and relatives. Yours are young still, so no need to after school activites yet which are beginning to cost us a fair whack! For their birthdays, I have their cousins and one or two friends around for sandwiches, cocktail sausages, fruit, homemade cakes and scones, football in the garden, balloons etc, at very little cost. For their clothes, I go to Dunnes or M & S in the sales for the older one and the younger one weas hand me downs. They don't need elaborate birthday presents at this age. For other kids parties, I stock up on good value children's books or toys when I am shopping in Tesco or whatever to give as presents. 

Having friends arounnd - I like cooking, so make everythjing from scratch. Homemade smoked fish pate wite homemade brown bread, chicken and chorizo stew and homemade madeira cake - stuff like that is delicious and not particularly expensive.

Groceries - we spend approx 550 - 600 a month and our kids are minded at home with a childminder so that is effectively for 3 adults and 2 kids. We could prob spend 100 less a month with careful planning. Also do up menu plans before you shop, use Aldi and Lidl, if you in Dunnes or Tesco buy only or mainly offers (3 veggies for 4 euro, 3 meat for 10 euro etc). That cuts down on shopping bills by about 1/3. Always bring lunch and what you need for coffee and tea to work

But main thing is to USE SPREAD SHEETS TO TRACK SPENDING!! Has helped us live within our means without even being particularly frugal and having extra money most months for treats or activities or holiday savings. 

Good luck, let us know how you get on!!


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## yram

Am I reading this right? (please correct me if I am).
You have a brand new car, with a 17k loan?

If this is correct, can you justify why you are swimming in debt, yet just bought/financed a 17k car loan?

The e350 per month on this is ludacris. 350 X 12 = e4200 per year. You could have alot of your debt paid off, and not worrying as much........all for a car?

Like, why cancel the sky, which you could get for, what, a basic package e25pm, yet pay hundreds for a car you cannot afford. I cannot see your logic, and dare I say, if this is the way you live/logic to paying bills/managing finance, it is easy to see how ye have initally gotton into this mess in the first place.


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## Neadyk

Some great suggestions here and well done on acknowledging and tackling your money problems.  It is completely doable and once you get into it you and your OH will be addicted and will really think about what and where you spend your hard earned cash.  A few suggestions:
Portion control:  This is important both financially and from a health point of view.  Freeze leftovers or use them the following day for lunches.  When doing your shopping plan your meals for the week and only buy what you need.  
Learn to HATE waste.  Once you do this with the above it’ll become second nature.  Feed your green bin as much as possible and if you don’t have a brown bin maybe consider composting.  Shop around for best priced waste providers.
Start baking at home.  It’s good for treats, homemade bread and if you can get the kids involved it’s a great skill for them to learn.
Kids parties.  I know a lot of mums that “recycle” their childrens toys.  A lot of kids get too much on their birthdays and Christmas so some of the toys are “put away” and used again.  They key is to keep a note of who gave you what.  Kids never miss things as they get too much anyway.  I also go in “pound” shops and buy a bundle of cards at the start of the year for all birthdays, anniversary’s, communions etc.  They are usually €1 each as opposed to €2.50+ in some branded shops.  “Pound” shops can also do toys and a selection of items in a goody bag will often keep a child more interested than one big thing eg crayons, colouring books, plastic jewellery, books, bubble guns etc.   Lidl/Aldi often do toys (colouring books, CD’s etc) that are much cheaper than toy shops so, if you can, stockpile these and use them again. 
Weddings etc – the same rule applies here.  If you see a sale in big department stores or jewellers and you know what weddings you have for the year ahead go in and buy at a discounted rate.  I know somebody who does all their wedding shopping for the year in the January sales and it’s a great trick.  Why pay full price for crystal etc when you can pay half or more?
Entertaining friends.  Have them over to your place.  Bake your own bread (they’ll love it) and make a big pot of something.  Most people bring their own bottle so you can utilise that.  Better still make your own cocktails.  EG cheaper brand Prosecco’s and own brand OJ for Bucks Fizz.  Nobody will know the difference and they’ll love it.  
Eating out with kids.  Get juice boxes or beakers & make your own juice and bring them together with fruit, homemade sambos etc and bring the kids out for a picnic.  The weather is getting better (!) and you can make a day of it.
Renegotiate all insurance – health, car, house etc.  As others have mentioned there are deals to be done.  Just be sure that you are getting the same cover.
Electricity.  We got an energy monitor about 1.5 years ago and it’s really made a difference.  There is an initial outlay (€50 or so) but it’ll teach you to turn off lights etc when not needed obviously keeping safety in mind especially with kids.  Change to energy saver lightbulbs too.
Sit down regularly with your OH and see where you’re making a difference.  Decide where the money you’ve saved can be best used.  As others have said probably your credit cards which are costing you the most.  As I’ve said this process is addictive and you’ll gain a real sense of control once you see results.
Best of luck.


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## chlipps

Turtledove said:


> .......
> I would be the saver in the relationship, my partner is an impulsive spender, ....QUOTE]
> 
> 
> time to get the reins on the other half and get the spending under control. Once this is under control and you spend within your means... then you should be able to get the debts under control.. You have considerable earnings and shame to be wasting so much if it.. with your earnings, you have no problem to clear your debts..
> 
> best of luck


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## Turtledove

Again thanks to everyone who replied to my post. Really good ideas and lots of food for thought.  I thought I would give an update on our progress.   


We've      stopped eating out, not as hard as I thought it would be actually.  We were using it for convenience      more than entertainment.  It’s      made no difference to our quality of life.  We are both taking lunches to work.  Amazing the knock on effect it has      on our spending.  Besides the      actual saving on lunch spend, you don’t find yourself in shops, which has      helped my impulsive spending hubby a lot, he’s stopped bringing the paper      home 
We      now shop in Ldl, didn’t have everything we usually buy in Tsco, so after a      disastrous double shopping trip (saving in Ldl shop, but then spending a      fortune on ‘needed’ luxuries in Tsco) we just changed our tastes and now      only shop in Ldl.  Working out      at about 120pw.  
We      to switched to Airtrcity.  We      also bought an Energy Monitor (thx Neady K), wow, never had a clue what      uses the most electricity, and what we spend our money on.  Makes you think twice about using      the dryer and dishwasher.  We also used to      leave Bathroom spotlights on all night to light the landing for the      kids.  These lights were      draining power.  Energy      savings light bulbs in all rooms cut the usage by half.  We’ve ordered more efficient LED’s      for the existing spots, which just eat electricity. We also checked the      timer for the heating.  It      wasn’t set properly and was coming on during the day when we were at work.
We      left Eircm for Vdafone (45pm broadband and call plan)
We      are now on a cheaper waste service
Renegotiating      our House Insurance – Currently have 45pm instead or 55pm, reduced the      building value, what’s the thinking around not going with accidental      damage? Worth doing? A risk?       We’ve never claimed on this to date. Found that our 79pm life      insurance was only 20yr term which wouldn’t cover our mortgage, now      looking at getting a 30yr instead for the same price.
My      hubby had been resisting canceling the AVC, he reckons no matter what, we      are going to need something for retirement and even though we put in 250      that this is before tax, so the real saving is half that.  Does he have a point? That said,      we are going to stop paying it anyway. We are considering selling the car.
  Over all I’d say that we have made a real change to pretty much everything we do. Of course it is early days. The excellent spreadsheet from this forum shows we will have gone from about a e250pw overspend to a e40pw week under spend. The only disappointing aspect is that even with all these changes and with the decent income, it is still so tight a margin, with no room for error until we get on top of the debt.

  One question on the credit card debt (they are cut up).  As most of the debt is with one lender we could ask the bank to roll it into a term loan. Would this effect our credit rating impact us in the future?  The other option is to get an interest free credit card, but could we consolidate the three other cards into the one new one? Do they allow you to consolidate more than one existing card?


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## homebird

Just a little theory of mine... It is worth buying a few nice things in the supermarket. Getting fed up with poor/boring fare on offer at home can result in an expensive trip to a restaurant which will blow at least €50.


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## niceoneted

Well done on all the changes. You will notice the difference over time as all the €40's  build up. 
Yes the LED's are great  - have them instead of halogens - I prefer the light from them too. 

Not well up on AVC's myself so cannot advice there. 

Credit rating should not be affected by asking to role CC debt into term loan. Remember though that you did this before and it only worked short term. 

I would seriously consider selling car. 

Use snowball method to clear cc's. Pay min on two larger ones, and lump all of the 2k one then when that clear lump that money of next lowest balance and so on.


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## irishmoss

I agree with homebird, maybe having one special cooked meal a week with a cheep bottle of wine. Aldi do lovely strip loin steaks for arounf 12 euros for two. Or buy chicken fillets, stuff with cream cheese and wrap with Lidl Black Forest Ham

It's important to have something to look forward to keep you on track and have a little downtime to enjoy something.


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## Bronte

Turtledove said:


> . The excellent spreadsheet from this forum shows we will have gone from about a e250pw overspend to a e40pw week under spend. The only disappointing aspect is that even with all these changes and with the decent income, it is still so tight a margin, with no room for error until we get on top of the debt.


 
This is great progress indeed.  Not sure why you're disappointed.  You can't expect miracles in the space of less than a month.  If you continued to overspend you'd end up maybe losing your home. 

What debt have you decided to tackle first?  Make that yours next goal.  Selling the car would release a lot of money to pay down debt?

In relation to your credit card problem, if you can go interest only that would be another saving.


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## maryb

For having friends round, why not do a course each? Someone brings the starter, you do the main, and someone brings dessert? And do a pasta or rice main, or something which is cheap. Your friends aren't going to expect filet steak - I'm sure that they're more than happy to just have a night out.
Use the library rather than buying books.
Check Aldi and Lidl in advance to see what they have on special offer and plan meals around this.
Sell the car and clear the cc debt. 
Other posters are right about having one nice meal per week. Myself and the other half try out a new recipe - again, you can get recipe books from the library.
Sign up to Groupon - you could buy someone a meal voucher as a birthday, wedding present (ensuring that they know the time limitation). 
Well done on trying to get on top of your debt.


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