# My sister-in-law had moved out the country, with her kids and not coming back.



## smc66 (22 Sep 2009)

Hi

My sister in law moved to uk for 12 months with my bro s kids. she had a n agreement that she and the kids would move to uk and return after 12 months.  My brother would travel every other weekend and 5 weeks at christmas and all summer to be with them.

Since she has moved to uk,
Has got British passports without his consent
applied for legal separation for his unreasonable behaviour.....
has cleared his account up tp recently when he ask her to stop spending money
she applied for benefits WHILE still taking money from the joint account to keep a high standard of living over

Is this right, can he get the kids back to this country with/without her consent.  Could she be made bring them back

Can she refuse him access

He trusted her to be back after 12 months, he took her word at every oppurtunity.  

help me advise him correctly


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## j26 (22 Sep 2009)

Tell him to get to a good family law solicitor.

There's potentially child abduction proceedings that could be taken under the Hague (or Brussels) Convention, but really expert advice is needed here.

He may be able to get the UK Passports rescinded as he never gave consent as guardian (you need to check with HM Government on that one).

The rest, I beleive would be best dealt with in comprehensive separation proceedings.


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## mathepac (22 Sep 2009)

If OP's sister-in-law is a UK citizen (her children are then entitled to UK citizenship) there may be nothing that can be done.


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## smc66 (22 Sep 2009)

i just believe that she has been planning this for a while. 
my brother 'allowed ' her to move to uk for 12 months to be near her family and i suppose after applying later on for a career break from his job that they might move over all together.  However when she got to the other side with him and the kids fr a 'holiday' she had already a house got from the social services in uk. when he fly home for a family emergency here and fly back again to uk, she basically told him it was over and would not be returning with the kids.  when he found the receipt for passports he quizzed her and she got very defensive as he feels that his famil went to uk under false pretences and are not returning to the family home here. with legel separation proceedings pending he can no longer speak to her only thru her free legal aid, which she started when he decided to move to uk with them after finding out that hey werent coming back.  Did she abduct the kids, can she be made come back here and face any charges, obvioulsy he is in a bit if a state as he does not want the kids affected by this,. ages 7,5 3.
?????


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## Bronte (22 Sep 2009)

What is the nationality of the mother and the father and the kids?  If she is a UK citizen then I assume her children are entitled to UK passports, is there something wrong with them having UK passports that your brother objects to?  She has separated from your brother and wishes to be near her family in the UK.  Does she have family in Ireland?  

If he wants to have her charged with child abduction does he not think this would have an impact on the children?  Why do you think she took money from the joint account?  Is your brother financially supporting his children?  What does your brother want exactly?  What does he think would be the best solution for everybody?


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## smc66 (22 Sep 2009)

Mother is English and father is irish,
What he wants plain and simple is his family back

She has lied about everything over passed 12 months.

The issue about the passports is, that we believe that she required them illegally.
and that she is claiming benefits  since june when they were still together. everything changed when he decided to move over full time.


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## holly (22 Sep 2009)

You don't need the father's consent to get UK passports, which is why I was able to get them for my children after father refused to sign passport Irish forms.

Has he actually moved yet?


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## mf1 (22 Sep 2009)

Your brother needs to deal with things as they are now. 

As j26 said, he needs a good family law solicitor - in the UK. 

There are two ways of dealing with it: kick, scream and gouge and refuse to engage in the separation proceedings. Or engage in the separation proceedings and try to resolve issues as much as possible. 

Can he seek custody? Is he in a position to offer a stable, secure family life to them? In Ireland ? Or in the UK? 

Because if he can't and even if the Court finds that the children were abducted ( unlikely, since he consented to them moving - even if he now feels there was more going on in the background), a Court may or may not decide to return the children if there is no support structure.

mf


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## Bronte (22 Sep 2009)

smc66 said:


> She has lied about everything over passed 12 months.
> 
> .


 
How do you know what is truth or fiction when you can only rely on your brother for information.  The mother may have very good reasons indeed for moving home, family support being an obvious one.  It would be better for all concerned to calm down and progress as amicable as possible from here if for nothing else then for the sake of the children.


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## smc66 (22 Sep 2009)

Bronte said:


> How do you know what is truth or fiction when you can only rely on your brother for information.
> 
> we are a close family, i suppose she might have been home sick.  i fund myself that she was not as'friendly' as she usaed to be.  i will give her one thing she had thed whole thing planned down to a 't'.
> 
> ...


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## smc66 (22 Sep 2009)

Holly,

She is in uk since july

I thought you would have to get a document signed at least by me brother.


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## smc66 (22 Sep 2009)

can someone advise me, could he go to uk, pick up kids and bring them home.  He feels now that they are abducted without his knowledge and she played a game with him til she got them in uk.


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## mf1 (22 Sep 2009)

smc66 said:


> can someone advise me, could he go to uk, pick up kids and bring them home.  He feels now that they are abducted without his knowledge and she played a game with him til she got them in uk.



Did you read the posts above? 

How helpful is the idea that he would go and,yes, "abduct" his own kids because he feels she  "abducted" them even though he agreed to them all going in the first place? Who is going to end up wrong footed here, do you think? 

He can (theoretically but not legally) do anything he likes but he should first carefully consider the effect his actions will have on his children and their long term welfare. 

mf


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## holly (22 Sep 2009)

"I thought you would have to get a document signed at least by me brother."

Certainly as of April this year - which is when I got my sons UK passports renewed - no, the UK only requires the signature of one parent. If it changed after April, I don't know but I doubt it, they have never needed two signatures as far as I am aware.

Does it really matter? Do you think she is going to leave the UK and move abroad... by your account she seems to be settled there now?


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## csirl (22 Sep 2009)

> at the moment she is on benefits and he has since agreed to give her 400euro a month for the children and the option to make a phone call for neccessities that the children might need.


 
There is no incentive for her to engage with him so long as he is paying her money. He needs to cut the funding and insist that the separation agreement is done in Ireland as both he and the kids are Irish citizens and Irish residents. His home in Ireland would be considered the "family home".

I understand the points mf is making over the impact on the kids, but it appears that she is attempting to cut them off from him permanently, which may have a more detrimental impact on the kids long term. While its not nice to rock the boat, sometimes you have to on a short term basis.

Children raised by a single parent on welfare in social housing statistically speaking dont do well. Parent with secure well paid job and own home living in the childrens country of origin and who isnt preventing the other partner from having access will always have an advantage in a custody battle over the former.


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## Bronte (23 Sep 2009)

Advising that the maintenance payments (5K on a salary of 75K ! and it is well known that UK benefits are paltry)  be stopped is absolutely atrocious advice. No right thinking parent would blackmail the other parent using the upkeep of their children as a bargaining tool.

It is not at all clear that the children are Irish residents or Irish citizens.  They are probably entitled to dual citizenship and also have the right to live in either country.  They are residing in the UK with their English mother with the consent of the father.  

I would hope that the fact that the mother is properly taking care of her children and not the fact she is poor would be the decisive factor in a custody battle.  It is more likely also that the mother of young children will be granted custody unless the father can show a reason why not.  The judge is going to make the decision based on what is best for the children.

The marriage has broken down and unless the father is able to somehow rectify this, and it doesn't seem likely, they will never become a family unit again.  

There are no winners in this type of situation, I have great sympathy for the father as it is another country and obviously something underhand went on.   However the mother must have had her reasons for doing what she did but this has not been outlined in the posts.  He should get the best family lawyer he can in the UK and try to get as much access and maybe custody.  If he were able to force the mother back to Ireland when her family is in the UK it is just going to end up in grief, even if a court ordered it.  Please think of the children and not the rights and wrongs of what occured.


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## smc66 (26 Sep 2009)

thanking you all for advise.  He went to see a family law solicitor.  We were all up in the air about what happened.  Having since calmed down and stepped back and looked at the situation we came up with the following

1.  she was missing her family and he agreed to let her go for a period of time
2. for what ever her reasons she decided that she wanted a separation when she was over after keeping him in the dark for months
3uNDER LEGAL ADVISE HE WILL SEE THE KIDS ONCE A MONTH
4 he has requested thru his solicitor that he will see them at christmas easter and the summer for a week at a time
5/ he has proposed that he will pay her 500euro a month towARDS THE FAMILY IN THE UK, ALL MONIES WILL HAVE A PAPER TRIAL.
WHIKE HE IS IN UK ON VISITS HE WILL BUT WHAT EVER HIS KIDS NEED.
6 HE REALISED THAT THE KIDS ARE SETTLED IN SCHOOL ETC IN THE UK AND NOT TO BRING THEM BACK 
7 IF SHE AT ANY STAGE CAUSES MAJOR ISSUES HE HAS SAID THAT HE WILL EXPLAIN TO EACH CHILD WHEN THEY ARE 18, WHAT HAPPENED.  HARD FOR HIM TO DO, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY THE KIDS WILL MAKE THEIR OWN CHOICES
HE HAS ARRANGED NOW TO USE THE INTERNET TO SEE HIS KIDS DURING THE WEEK TO TALK TO THEM SO AT LEAST THEY WONT FORGET HIM.

oBVIOUSLY WHEN HE GOT THE MESSAGE TWAS OVER HE WAS SHOCKED TO SAY THE LEAST.  DIVORCE NOW IS NEXT AND YOU KNOW WHAT HE IS OK WITH THAT, HE WILL MOVE ON WITH HIS LIFE


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