# Engineering Salaries



## annfield (15 Jan 2007)

I know alot of people in the financial sectors read these posts but just wondering about salaries for those working for engineering consultants and whether the fact of being chartered should make any difference to your pay. Working in dublin over 5 yrs in the civil engineering sector so wondering what wage expectations should be.


----------



## Satanta (15 Jan 2007)

annfield said:


> .....salaries for those working for engineering consultants and whether the fact of being chartered should make any difference to your pay. Working in dublin over 5 yrs in the civil engineering sector so wondering what wage expectations should be.


Can't give a huge input to people with five years experience, but from my own class (18 months ago) graduates, in the majority, were receiving between €25'000 to €30'000 (obviously a few both above and below that mark). The average (from random knowledge of friends so far from a scientific figure) coming in closer to the €30'000 bracket. Personally, I was ~€30'000 basic and due to site work and associated tax free extras etc. this was brought up to ~€58'000 gross p/a.

Should Chartership make a difference? Of course. It's a difficult task to gain chartership so it should certainly be reflected in rewards. The company I'm currently with rewards both in terms of a one off payment and with greater rewards in pay reviews. Although this only applies to one chartership, gaining chartership with IEI, ICE, CIWEM etc are fine if you have the interest in doing it, but only one counts for the reward (also, it doesn't have to be a CEng title, the CEnv and CSci titles [available through CIWEM for example] carry the same rewards). Gaining the chartership status also means more work with graduates being assigned to chartered engineers (who act as mentors), but most would happily provide this role whether required to by work or not. 
_On the flip side it is also considered (but not said! obviously) that anyone not trying to achieve chartership is lacking in ambition and self motivation and may/will/does struggle to progress (this is my own opinion on the situation and not a company line on chartership)_

As for what the normal pay scale is.... you know as well as anyone the job varies hugely from office to office. How much (unpaid) overtime do you have to do? How big a workload have you? How much responsibility/stress/etc do you have to take on?
The basic question is, are you happy with your pay for the job you have to do?

In another 3 1/2 years I would also expect to be chartered. I also expect to be PM'ing quite large projects with quite a heavy workload, so will/would expect to be well rewarded for this. Having a knowledge of the company I work with and people who have similiar specialities and backgrounds, I would expect to be near €70'000 to €85'000. If I enjoy the work then as much as I do now (fair enough, I'm only 18/19 months into it) I'd still happily do it at €35'000 or €40'000, I couldn't think of anything else I'd prefer to do (but don't go telling my boss that  ). 

I know Engineers who have far heavier workloads and have far tougher jobs than I have, both with higher and lower salaries. I know of Engineers with far easier jobs than I have, both with higher and lower salaries. I wouldn't swap with either group. I enjoy the job I do, I enjoy the people I work with.... to me thats worth more than an extra €20k or €30k a year.

[You don't mention what sector of Engineering you're ub. The examples of pay mentioned above are across the board, with some from each element of Civil Eng, some Mech etc etc]


----------



## Dundhoone (15 Jan 2007)

I might be in a better position to advise.  Civil Engineer, working for consultancy (medium/large)  with 6 years experience  - on 45k .     I'd expect you'd probably earn 2 to 3k more for working in Dublin.   I'd love to hear what you are on yourself, Engineers are fierce cagey about earnings!   I'd always use the local authority payscales as roughly what to go by.  Santanta, I'd love to know who you think is going to pay a 27/28 year old eng with 5 yrs experience 70 to 85k.   I know you can get a decent boost to salary if you take a site job, and get a few quid on top in expenses and bonuses, but for consultancy work that doesnt happen too often.  Directors of consultancies would pull in 80-90k.  Project managers (typically 15-20yrs exp) make maybe 70-80k.


----------



## Satanta (16 Jan 2007)

Dundhoone said:


> Santanta, I'd love to know who you think is going to pay a 27/28 year old eng with 5 yrs experience 70 to 85k. I know you can get a decent boost to salary*** if you take a site job, and get a few quid on top in expenses and bonuses, but for consultancy work that doesnt happen too often.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming this is standard or what everyone expects/should expect. The only reason I stated those figures, which are far from guesstimates, was to make the point that enjoying your job/career is far more important than monitary gain. I'd also place job security as a higher priority than an extra few euro in a pay cheque, but each person will have personal opinions on each matter and must do what they believe is correct. 

While I understand that people like to know what the going rate is for the level they currently stand (could try flicking through the job advertisments related to your own field [though many have no salary mentioned and definatly won't give the full picture with pensions, employee stock purchase etc. etc.] or using the IEI survey to give an indication) to know if they are achieving near it, too much emphasis is put on wage and people forget about issues such as job satisfaction and enjoyment. The question shouldn't be "what is everyone else getting paid", it should be "am I happy with the salary I get for the work I do". 

*The site boost in salary is usually in or around 10% to 15%, but the potential tax free "assistance" for site work (and usually only when it's for temperory periods [6 to 8 months], technically, to cover increased costs, but moving away from Dublin only ever lowered costs for me) can provide a far higher gain.


----------



## Dundhoone (16 Jan 2007)

Job satisfaction is of course important - its actually something that hit me after I had gone through the first 3 or 4 years taking every opportunity to travel/site work (basically anything for a few quid extra) 
Now im more concerned with my own quality of life than taking up every chance to make a few quid extra.  Doesnt mean im not still dedicated to my work, just that I dont want to be travelling or away a lot anymore. It does mean sacrificing site money as you outlined. Careful with those expenses Satanta, as you said, six months in the one spot only, anything more and the tax man will be after you! [broken link removed]  

I've seen those ads for crazy money jobs , looking for engineers with 5+ yrs.  Half are just agencies looking for your cv, and any that are legit you'll be selling yourself into slavery!  The only place to make big money in civ eng is onsite, but you work extra hours to do that.

Chartership, imo doesnt mean more money.  The IEI is an organisation run by senior engineering figures, with lots of lofty goals never delivered.  They do nothing to improve the pay/working conditions for junior engineers, as it is not in their interest.  They have done nothing to raise the profile of engineers in Ireland in the 6 years I've been a member. They have hired lots of new staff, refurbished their offices and increase subs. good on them.  They do organise good golf outing in all fairness.


----------



## Satanta (16 Jan 2007)

Dundhoone said:


> Chartership, imo doesnt mean more money.


I can't speak for every office, but personally I know in ours gaining your Chartered status provides a healthy % increase in the following salary review (between 10% and 20% - a fair amount given it's an Engineer with at least four years experience), a one off bonus (not huge but definatly some compensation for the hours put in - and it does take a fair effort just to keep the paperwork up to date) and is viewed in a positive light. 

Does it make them any better at the job? No. I don't even know if it's something which gives clients more confidence in people (I seriously doubt if it does). That said, it is part of my contract that I continually work towards Chartered status, so I for one will be going for it when the time comes (ask me again when I've your experience and I may very well have lost the enthusiasm and turned cynic).

Re the tax. I know all about it, it's nasty (and overly complicated in my opinion). You really have to go into the in's and out's of it in detail. Had some serious headaches getting it all sorted. Requests for info from Revenue, the tax guides don't really give enough detail to be sure you're compliant (or at least didn't for me), always got answered with "Just do xxxxxxxxxxx and you'll be fine". When asked for documented proof of this, I was usually passed to another contact - who again tried to advise rather than provide information.


----------



## Dundhoone (16 Jan 2007)

Can I ask, does your company have structured positions?  As in you start at grad, and after a couple of years move up to assistant and after that promotion is based on capability, with a similarily structured payscale?

Ours doesnt and its something of a shame. Pay is by years of service, not capability. Which is very annoying when you are doing nearly all your bosses work, for half his salary!!!

cynical!!! me??? 

 yes. very.


----------



## Satanta (16 Jan 2007)

Dundhoone said:


> Can I ask, does your company have structured positions? As in you start at grad, and after a couple of years move up to assistant and after that promotion is based on capability, with a similarily structured payscale?


Yes, you can ask away.
Yes. It has a structure, based along those lines. Titles etc are different to those mentioned, but each company has different names for basically the exact some positions (associate/assistant etc.). 

As you say, certain grades will take a certain amount of time to move from (e.g. a grad won't jump into a higher position without being there a while and gaining experience [which I have to say I fully agree with]), but the promotion isn't guaranteed after a certain time and does have to be earned (this goes all the way up along the chain). Once the initial couple of steps are done, and good project/PM/technical/logistical experience has been gained, promotions can come pretty fast if the work is put in (not speaking from personal experience here, but I have lost some very good seniors to management positions within the company following multiple promotions in a (relativly) short timescale). 

The one thing I do like is that people who aren't putting in the work (and they exist in every office) aren't getting/don't get the rewards (not sure about the pay they may be receiving but certainly not gaining the promotions [each role does have a cap on pay, though I think it is a fairly wide bracket to reward hard working staff not yet eligible for the next step], staff who joined as juniors to them have overtaken them in the structure. This is a nice change from any other Eng company I've worked for (fair enough, I could count those on one hand [with three fingers], but I think my point stands  ).


----------



## Imperator (17 Jan 2007)

A good site to get access to salary surveys for engineers is www.iei.ie, the website of the Institute of Engineers of Ireland, who operate under the title 'Engineers Ireland'. You have to be a member of the organisation to log in to the section dealing with salary surveys.

In Ireland, becoming chartered in and of itself, doesn't get you a pay rise in many consultanices or firms (although it may in some manufacturing companies).  However, what does get you the pay rise is the things you have had to do to get chartered i.e. taking responsibility, acting at a senior level etc.

Regarding the comment on which body to become chartered with, as long as its recognised by Engineers Ireland and you get the paperwork sorted, you should be able to use the legally protected title 'Chartered Engineer'.

Imperator (Chartered Engineer)


----------



## Dundhoone (17 Jan 2007)

I dont suppose you'd care to share your number of years experience and salary by any chance imperator? For the greater good, and all?


----------



## annfield (18 Jan 2007)

i agree with dundhoone, one think to note is the agencies and stay well clear of them, a good idea is to check out http://www.acei.ie/memberdirectory.asp which must have a list of every consultant in the country if you know where you want to live and work it narrows things down for you and you can sometimes guess the consultant from their job descriptions on pages such as irish jobs.ie saving your prospective company a few grand that could be going your way.

wages are a touchy subject, the IEI certainly dont do enough to promote the profession, engineers fees are shocking compared to architects, quantity surveyors, planners and 'project managers'. Dont get me started on accountancy and other high brow professions...


----------



## suzy61 (18 Jan 2007)

Hi I'm a civil engineer who's been working on site for a big company for about 18 months.From comparing between myself and friends, I think about 30 - 35000 seems to be standard.The problem is how much it increases by.Engineers are terrible for not "standing up for themselves" when it comes to that kind of thing.I also know for a fact that all benefits aside, guys who are labouring and laying blocks on site are frequently earning more than us.This is regardless of the fact that they have nowhere near the amount of responsibility, or the workload.
Also, it seems to me that engineers are having to hop companies a lot as a result, to get any kind of decent wage increase.From what I hear from friends working in consultancies, and from what I see on site, there is a large turnover in staff (engineers), simply to keep the money going up.

I do have one question though.I'm a fully qualified civil engineer and I'm very interested in getting my chartership.Is it possible to get it while working for a contractor, or is it easier to do it through a consultancy?As in, is the work in a consultancy not more relevant,than what we do on site,to what is required for your chartership?Also, is it any benefit at all to you to be chartered while in a contractor?It seems to me like a lot of people wouldn't even understand what chartership means in that line of work...I don't mean that to be running anyone down, but that's how it appears to me.

As it is at the moment I love my job, but I feel that I'm not being given chances to do things that I should be.It seems that I'm wasting my time a bit, especially lately,but I don't want to go looking for another job as i know i won't get better than this in terms of contractors pay, and I'm pretty sure it'll be a lot less in a consultancy.I'm a bit stuck.
One final thing....could people offer an opinion on what exactly a senior engineer is supposed to do ona site?And if you've been working a couple of years,so you're past the setting out only stage, what are you supposed to do while working underneath a senior engineer?How much freedom should you have?

My final word on the subject...a lot of people don't really understand what engineers do, so they can't possibly understand wage issues, if you went very public about it.It's easy to see what the architect, doctor,lawyer,planner,accountant etc does..if I had a euro for every time I was asked "so what exactly DO you do?".........


----------



## john m (19 Jan 2007)

I am a Chemical Engineer working contract in the pharmaceutical industry with about 7-8 years experience. As a guide most of my college mates are doing the same as me and the hourly rate ranges from €45-€55/hour wich equates to a minimum of €80-90k/year but as we tend to work very long hours this will normally be quiet a bit higher. As contractors (must set up your own Ltd company to get in the door of these companies) you have to deal with your own taxes and pay to have your accounts done by an accountant on a yearly basis so that eats into the total. And as we are self employed so we dont get holiday/sick/bank holiday pay. My figures are very representative of my qualification and sector but I cant comment on others.


----------



## Satanta (19 Jan 2007)

suzy61 said:


> I do have one question though.
> 
> ...is it possible to get it while working for a contractor?
> ...is it easier to do it through a consultancy?
> ...


Looks like four questions to me  

I don't work for a contractor so not in the best position to advise. I presume it would be possible, as long as you can meet the requirements of the institution you wish to gain CEng with (Check out IEI's [or any other body you may have an interest in] website for specific details of what development etc. you need to show [and prove]).

I would certainly suggest it would be easier to gain the status when working in a consultancy with a recognised training programme (again, with whatever body) as you are continually working towards Chartership while undergoing the normal development training. Even in a consultancy without a recognised training programme you are exposed to a few more levels of the process (bidding, contract etc.) than if you were a site engineer, so this may also be of benefit. 

Again, probably yes. The variety of work available to people in a large consultancy would help gain all the required skills (as above), but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be possible to do with a contractor. Again, go through the requirements in detail and identify areas where you may lack in (or lack in opportunities to develop) as you progress through your career given your current path... if you identify them now you may be able to find other ways to fill the (possible) gap in your skills during the coming couple of years through non work methods (evening classes, volunteer work, CPD training, etc etc) 

This one you should certainly have answers/be able to get answers to from those around you. A quick chat with one/a few of the experienced Engineers should give you an answer straight from the horses mouth. (You never know what additional information you might be able to pick up from them if you raise the topic with them)


----------



## powernap (19 Jan 2007)

i concur with John-m on the rates. i'm from the same chemical background and work under the same cirumstances. i project managed as a staff person for a few years and found it demoralising signing off triple time timesheets for tradesmen on bank holidays when i was in there for the good of the company on my yearly salary. most chem/mech engineers with greater than four years experience are heading the contracting routes to try and earn a paypacket which reflects the responsibility they carry. there seems to be an excess of jobs at the moment around the pharma industry which is good for everyone in terms of demanding a higher rate or salary..long may it continue.


----------



## Satanta (19 Jan 2007)

Even within a certain sector of Engineering the pay scale can vary wildly. 

If a Civil Engineer works on general Civils (at a low(ish) level) with a broad range of duties the pay/salary can be fairly poor (relative) compared to someone within the same company/team (with the same level of responsibility/workload/conditions) who has a specialist area and key technical skills required by the company (be it training in specialist software, experience in specific specialist tasks etc.).


----------



## Dundhoone (22 Jan 2007)

suzy61 said:


> I do have one question though.I'm a fully qualified civil engineer and I'm very interested in getting my chartership.Is it possible to get it while working for a contractor, or is it easier to do it through a consultancy?As in, is the work in a consultancy not more relevant,than what we do on site,to what is required for your chartership?Also, is it any benefit at all to you to be chartered while in a contractor?It seems to me like a lot of people wouldn't even understand what chartership means in that line of work...I don't mean that to be running anyone down, but that's how it appears to me.
> 
> And if you've been working a couple of years,so you're past the setting out only stage, what are you supposed to do while working underneath a senior engineer?How much freedom should you have?


 
As Setanta said, consultancies may have a better laid out system towards chartership, but site work is no less valid with regards experience, I'd say you might well have better chance to get "responsible" experience.
At 18 months into the job, I think you will just have to knuckle down and do whatever donkeywork you are given.  A senior eng on site is not going to risk putting you on something important until he/she is satisfied they can trust you.  2+ yrs and I think you should be asking to be made responsible for a particular area of work (with some supervision from the boss)  say the construction of a pumping station or a particular part of a building, something you could call your own on a cv.  If that went well, look for more responsibilty. Its that sort of stuff that will get you chartered.


Chartership is a catch 22.  The senior figures in the EI are directors/managers/owners of consultancies/contractors or LA.  They have no interest in giving pay increases for people becoming chartered. The title really hasnt the same significance as chartership for accountants, and the equivalent for other professionals.  People do not look for a chartered engineer over one without chartership.  In fairness, all it is is an essay and an interview. If its not hard to get, its not worth getting.


----------

