# Residents Association Fee: €30 pa for what?



## Jane Doe

a residents committee was set up to look after estate and problems. they say they will ask each house for membership fee of 30 euro and also running a raffle to fund it. its a good idea but....

I just wondered if anyone has experience of this . What if someone does not want to be a member? where do they get figure of 30 euro? If someone pays and joins are they getting into an agreement whereby they are obliged to pay if the fee increases? What if soemone does not want to be a member?

I have read of people not joining such associations and then having their names published in a newsletter I think as not having paid. Can they do that?

Feedback from anyone who has had similar experiences welcomed


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## AlbacoreA

Can you get them to agree those things before hand. Seems entirely reasonable.


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## Jane Doe

> Can you get them to agree those things before hand. *Seems entirely reasonable*.


thanks do you mean fee is reasonable or getting them to agree those things before hand is reasonable?

there was a meeting i did not go to but then got the letter re fee.


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## AlbacoreA

You can only influence things if you get involved. I don't see how they can publish a list of people who don't want to pay no.


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## WaterWater

If you don't want to join then don't. What are they going to offer for the €30 fee?


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## john martin

I have been paying into a residents association for many years and I do admit I used to moan about the fee. Looking back at the huge amount of voluntary work that the committees have carried out I actually feel ashamed to have have complained and must say that most of this type of civic  work goes unappreciated. When you look at the modern alternitive of management companies and the outrageous charges involved you should be very grateful to have unpaid volunteers looking after your interests for a paltry 30 euro per year.


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## Complainer

Jane Doe said:


> there was a meeting i did not go to but then got the letter re fee.


I'd guess that many of your questions were answered at the meeting. Maybe if you speak to some of those who went to the meeting and have taken on voluntary roles to improve your community, you might well get the rest of the answers.


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## mercman

If it is not a condition of ownership in your Title Documents regarding the Management Fee, then it cannot be enforced, And as for printing names of non payers, the Committee are leaving themselves wide open to a slander claim.


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## beldin

However they can publish a list of people who payed, with thanks.


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## dave28

If the estate / development is clean and tidy and has a nice community atmosphere i think its well worth €30 - especially when it comes to someone trying to sell a property !


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## JoeB

beldin said:


> However they can publish a list of people who payed, with thanks.



But can they?, if the list is written in such a way as to clearly identify those who haven't paid?

i.e

No 1- Paid
No 2- Paid
No 3- Paid

No 5- Paid

It might invite vigilante action against No 4.


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## salaried

Hi Jane Doe, 

Maybe you are getting private management fees and resident committees/associations mixed up. 

The latter do not have contracts, they work on a voluntary basis for the good of the estate you live in. We pay the same and I agree with John Martin 100%. I paid the 30 euro annually and left it to others to get on with it, moaning when i handed it over. In the past few years i realised how run down an estate can become without such a committee/association. 

I never thought I would be the type to give up my days off to get stuck in but I do and get great satisfaction from it.3 0 euro if affordable is worth it as you will benefit, also try to make it to the next meeting and you might get a better understanding of what your neighbours are trying to achieve. 

For what it is worth if you decide to pay the 30 euro it will be to members of the committee and they will thank you for it, not ask you to sign up to anything. As far as naming names as to who did not pay up,i ts nonsense. 

If anything dont let paying the 30 euro be the end of your contribution get involvled and you will appreciate your house/home, neighbours and estate a lot more.

best of luck Salaried.


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## RMCF

We have been collecting money since our estate opened approx 10yrs ago.

There are 36 houses and the money is to pay for mainly grass cutting and weeding of the area to keep it looking half decent.

We charge 50 each year, payable in 2 x 25 payments.

To be honest, most people see it as a fee worth paying. It pays to have a nice looking street. We had difficulties over the years and when your common area grass is 4ft high, most people can see that its best to join in and keep it under control. Also get the odd tree, plant or scrub planted out of excess money just to add to things.

As for non-payers, the worst I think we ever had was 7 about 2yrs ago. Even in the recession now we have only 3 or 4, but these are habitual non-payers, who have no interest in paying and never will. They have little care for their own gardens, driveways or house generally, so there's no changing people like this. 

Personally I think 50 is a small price to pay for the upkeep. And its good to see that most agree, even though payment is totally voluntary.


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## Grizzly

Is the €50 spent on upkeep of lawnmower, equipment, petrol etc  Where is the extra equipment stored?


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## PaddyBloggit

Grizzly ~ usually in these situations a contractor is hired to cut the grass etc. He'd have his own equipment so no equipment would be stored within the estate.

These contractors should have their own insurance. If they don't there are plenty out there who do and will take on the contract for a reasonable fee.


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## Jane Doe

> If it is not a condition of ownership in your Title Documents regarding the Management Fee


this is a local authority house so i do not have Title Documents


> usually in these situations a contractor is hired to cut the  grass etc. He'd have his own equipment so no equipment would be stored  within the estate


in this situation a mower is being purchased


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## PaddyBloggit

Make sure association has insurance/storage/petrol storage/who uses it/safety & hazzard training/servicing etc. sorted for the mower.


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## shesells

Beware the legalities of selling raffle tickets as a fundraiser. The gaming and lotteries act (1956?) is very specific. You would need a permit from the Gardai.


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## Jane Doe

The RA have now hired a grass cutter. They did not give me a newsletter this time - maybe cos i did not join - but i have seen the newsletter.

I just wondered if say they should include the names of the companies who gave quotes for the grass so people would know it was done openly. I also wondered if they should have a constitution* and if people should see it before joining so they know where their cash is going.

Also should member have input into safety features like speed reduction ramps or do the RA decide all this themselves without consultation with members.

I would prefer not to join but would like to pay a reasonable amount to keep the area nice. Could I give a donation as distinct from a fee and therefore not have any* obligation* next year. I could *donate *again next year if i was impressed

I read about someone doing that on another site but cannot find it now

**is that the right word*?


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## redfedora

Jane Doe said:


> I just wondered if say they should include the names of the companies who gave quotes for the grass so people would know it was done openly.


 
why do you care if you havent joined




Jane Doe said:


> I also wondered if they should have a constitution* and if people should see it before joining so they know where their cash is going.


 
yes they should have one, it should be provided to all members and made availible to all members. 




Jane Doe said:


> Also should member have input into safety features like speed reduction ramps or do the RA decide all this themselves without consultation with members.


do they have the authority to speak for everyone in the estate or are they just a bunck of goof offs and soap box politicans.

personally I would expect that all people living in the estate should be given a chance to voice their opinion for changes that will happen in their estate.  if you decide not to voice your opinion than thats your right but you also automactically lose the right to complain after the fact. kind of like those people that dont vote but think they can complain that FF messed up the country. 




Jane Doe said:


> I would prefer not to join but would like to pay a reasonable amount to keep the area nice. Could I give a donation as distinct from a fee and therefore not have any* obligation* next year. I could *donate *again next year if i was impressed


 
you're under no obligation to join a residents association.  like wise they actually have no legal authority to speak for you or anyone else in the estate.  Why do you need one is it not a council run estate? do the council not maintain the areas? is there a management company in place? 
I read about someone doing that on another site but cannot find it now

isnt giving a donation the same as joining?


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## T McGibney

JoeBallantin said:


> But can they?, if the list is written in such a way as to clearly identify those who haven't paid?
> 
> i.e
> 
> No 1- Paid
> No 2- Paid
> No 3- Paid
> 
> No 5- Paid
> 
> It might invite vigilante action against No 4.



It must be a fairly classy estate so.


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## Jane Doe

redfedora said:


> why do you care if you havent joined


 it is my business what i care about. And i care abou something being run properly if i am going to give it money



> yes they should have one, it should be provided to all members and made availible to all members.


maybe they have as i said i am not a member


> do they have the authority to speak for everyone in the estate or are they just a bunck of goof offs and soap box politicans.


 don't know


> you're under no obligation to join a residents association


. I know



> Like wise they actually have no legal authority to speak for you or anyone else in the estate.


they may have a right to speak on behalf of members, are members giving them that right by joining



> Why do you need one is it not a council run estate?


council do not cut grass etc



> do the council not maintain the areas?


no


> is there a management company in place?


in a council estate?



> isnt giving a donation the same as joining?


not sure legally


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## aristotle

You are thinking too much about this. Give them the 30 euro or whatever and after a few months you will likely see the estate looking neater and tidier, with the grass cut etc. You'll wonder why you flustered with the decision then.

I'm speaking from experience


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## redfedora

Jane Doe said:


> it is my business what i care about. And i care about something being run properly if i am going to give it money


 but I thought you havent given them money? if you havent then you shouldnt really care how they do things. 
I know i dont, there's a residents association in my estate, I'm not in it and couldnt care less what they do once they dont include me in their "we speak for the estate" any time they do I make sure that i write to the concerned body to say that I am not part of this group and offer my opinion seperate, they send me fliers every now and again and i think "yay free paper" and write my shopping lists on them. 




Jane Doe said:


> maybe they have as i said i am not a member


 well if you join make sure they do. it covers how the association is run, how people are appointed to the committee etc so that it doesnt become a tool for one persons agenda



Jane Doe said:


> don't know


 might be worth looking into that because they may be speaking on your behalf and the likes of the council will think thats the conscensus view in the estate. if you have an opposing view you have a right to be heard




Jane Doe said:


> they may have a right to speak on behalf of members, are members giving them that right by joining


 pretty much, normally they would ask all members for their view on things that need to be considered like speed bumps and go with the majority view. if they just do what they want without consultation then i'd be concerned. 



Jane Doe said:


> council do not cut grass etc


 they should do it, but they are probably using the "we've no money we're in a recession line while maintaining their salaries as some dublin councils have done. 





Jane Doe said:


> not sure legally


 what i mean was if you're going to donate would you not be as well off joining at least then you can offer your input and maybe ensure you see something for your money.


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## Jane Doe

redfedora said:


> but I thought you havent given them money?


 i haven't but would consider it for the good of the estate. 


> if you havent then you shouldnt really care how they do things.
> I know i dont, there's a residents association in my estate, I'm not in it and couldnt care less what they do once they dont include me in their "we speak for the estate" any time they do I make sure that i write to the concerned body to say that I am not part of this group and offer my opinion seperate,


good points but if you are not in it how would you know what they say


> they send me fliers every now and again and i think "yay free paper" and write my shopping lists on them.


lol



> well if you join make sure they do. it covers how the association is run, how people are appointed to the committee etc so that it doesnt become a tool for one persons agenda


good idea. Is there a law that says they must have a constitution though?



> might be worth looking into that because they may be speaking on your behalf and the likes of the council will think thats the conscensus view in the estate. if you have an opposing view you have a right to be heard


true



> they should do it, but they are probably using the "we've no money we're in a recession line while maintaining their salaries as some dublin councils have done.


councils no longer do this at least not around here. i think it was brought in before recession



> what i mean was if you're going to donate would you not be as well off joining at least then you can offer your input and maybe ensure you see something for your money.


oh i see what you meant now


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## dewdrop

All i would say is that for the sake of the money involved you will be well rewarded in the event of selling your home. A  well kept neat park will add thousands to the price.


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## redfedora

Jane Doe said:


> if you are not in it how would you know what they say


 

Very True, Know your enemy  



Jane Doe said:


> good idea. Is there a law that says they must have a constitution though?


 
I'm pretty sure that any legally formed body must have a constitution. its called the Memo & Arts of Association. they are the rules that govern how the group are run, how it elects officials, what its primary purpose is etc. that applies to companies and i'm 90% it applies to charities and again 90% to sports clubs/ assiciations and Residents associations may fall under that.  your local council will have someone that is involved with all local community grops and they can inform you better. 



Jane Doe said:


> councils no longer do this at least not around here.


 same out my way the local council think its ok for nettles to grow on the edge of playgrounds, they brought in this hippy policy as a cover for not cutting the grass. for my sins i'm lucky to be in a managed estate so at least teh grass is cut once a month. 

but your council are still responsible for cutting it, they just may not bother. if a number of individuals came together and applied pressure say thorgh your TDs, elected officials, actual local councilers and not the environmental department or parks department in the council and possible local media they'd find the money some how.


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## Complainer

redfedora said:


> I'm pretty sure that any legally formed body must have a constitution. its called the Memo & Arts of Association. they are the rules that govern how the group are run, how it elects officials, what its primary purpose is etc. that applies to companies and i'm 90% it applies to charities and again 90% to sports clubs/ assiciations and Residents associations may fall under that.  your local council will have someone that is involved with all local community grops and they can inform you better.


As other posters have said, you are over-thinking this. It sounds like the residents association consists of a few people who have got up off their asses and are doing some work to improve the area. Decide if you want these folk working on Articles of Association and constitutions, or do you want them working on getting the grass cut. The amount of money involved is tiny. Why not show a bit of trust in the people prepared to do the work, and give them a bit of support, and the €30, instead of nitpicking about formalities.


redfedora said:


> but your council are still responsible for cutting it, they just may not bother. if a number of individuals came together and applied pressure say thorgh your TDs, elected officials, actual local councilers and not the environmental department or parks department in the council and possible local media they'd find the money some how.


There is no general obligation on the council to cut grass on housing estates.


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## monagt

"There is no general obligation on the council to cut grass on housing estates." - I think there is once the estate is taken in charge by the council. If its run by a Management Company then its their responsibility.

On the €30, is this the first ever collection, if NO then ask for a copy of last years expenditure. If Yes, then find out specifically what they are going to do?, are they an elected committee, all residents invited to a meeting and a committee elected, if not, then it should be.
Are they going to have a Clean Up day?, provide signage, lobby the council & elected reps?

You could JOIN them...........


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## redfedora

Complainer said:


> As other posters have said, you are over-thinking this.


 actually i'm not people think RAs are easy to set up, you get a group of like minded people together and away you go. its not that simple. it should be legally formed, be registered with the local council at the very least, i've also heard of some that are registered with the CRO under charitable organisations so they have no tax implications as they are non profit. but they do require a Memo & Arts.




Complainer said:


> It sounds like the residents association consists of a few people who have got up off their asses and are doing some work to improve the area.[/QUOTE
> 
> all aplaudable stuff
> 
> 
> 
> Complainer said:
> 
> 
> 
> The amount of money involved is tiny. Why not show a bit of trust in the people prepared to do the work, and give them a bit of support, and the €30, instead of nitpicking about formalities..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because if you dont think of the formalities like registration, liability insurance etc and something happens then ever person involvied has can be held liable for an unlimited amount. what happens if they decide to hire a lawn mower and someone losses a finger? it happens, who's going to compensate the person? extreme example? .
> 
> or another one, they keep going the grass cutting was a great success and the place looks lovely, and decide to start community events, great idea, lets have a street party. great idea, bouncey castle, deadly the kids will love it. you all chip in then on teh day little baby david does a tripple back flip out of it and splits himself on the concrete, who pays his medical bills and compo? every person involded is equally liable, it the association is properly formd and has a memo and arts it covers what their liability is (probably €1.27), and they should have liability insurance in place for these events
> 
> i'm not saying theres anything wrong with these groups but you caution anyone who jumps in head first without testing the water.  make sure it is set up correctly and is run professionally not just by some group of people that want to use it as a stepping stone to a career in politics as i have seen happen, their over all agenda is to make it look like they are doing stuff but nothing actually gets done, the blame is placed elsewhere and the association gets all the praise for their "hard work"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Complainer said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is no general obligation on the council to cut grass on housing estates.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i would have though that all local councel are responsible for the general upkeep of the area they are responsible for this includes waste dumping, drainage, lighting and grass cutting etc, they may only do it once a year but they are responsible for it
Click to expand...


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## RonanC

redfedora said:


> I'm pretty sure that any legally formed body must have a constitution. its called the Memo & Arts of Association. they are the rules that govern how the group are run, how it elects officials, what its primary purpose is etc.


 
Memo & Arts only applies to Companies. An Association can be formed and a constitution of rules put in place so that the group or association will have aims, rules and objectives. An association can have public liability insurance without being legally formed (company) and this covers for any possible situation. 

Very good handbook on residents associations here.


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## RonanC

redfedora said:


> i've also heard of some that are registered with the CRO under charitable organisations so they have no tax implications as they are non profit. but they do require a Memo & Arts.


 
If registered with the CRO, they are more than likely registered as a Guarantee Company without share capital, taking the form of a "non profit organisation". They are not charitable organisations.

A huge drawback of registering with the CRO as a Guarantee Company is, accounts must be fully audited every year and submitted to the CRO which can cost a significant amount of money, especially if not filed on time. 

The simple as easiest way is to form the association with the help and supervision of the Local Council or Authority and make the likes of local TD's, Councillors and An Garda Siochana aware of the proposal or existance of the association. Put a constitution of rules in place and also put public liability insurance in place, cost of which is very little and can easily be paid from annual subs from residents.


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## Complainer

redfedora said:


> Because if you dont think of the formalities like registration, liability insurance etc and something happens then ever person involvied has can be held liable for an unlimited amount. what happens if they decide to hire a lawn mower and someone losses a finger? it happens, who's going to compensate the person? extreme example? .
> 
> or another one, they keep going the grass cutting was a great success and the place looks lovely, and decide to start community events, great idea, lets have a street party. great idea, bouncey castle, deadly the kids will love it. you all chip in then on teh day little baby david does a tripple back flip out of it and splits himself on the concrete, who pays his medical bills and compo? every person involded is equally liable, it the association is properly formd and has a memo and arts it covers what their liability is (probably €1.27), and they should have liability insurance in place for these events
> 
> i'm not saying theres anything wrong with these groups but you caution anyone who jumps in head first without testing the water.  make sure it is set up correctly and is run professionally not just by some group of people that want to use it as a stepping stone to a career in politics as i have seen happen, their over all agenda is to make it look like they are doing stuff but nothing actually gets done, the blame is placed elsewhere and the association gets all the praise for their "hard work"


What if baby David trips on the uncut grass and breaks a leg while you're fretting about the paper work? Who's going to pay his compo then?

There are risks involved in every aspect of life, but you're getting into analysis paralysis. 

If you want get off your ass and help them out by sorting out the Article of Association etc, then fair play to you. If you're using it as an excuse to nitpick at those who are actually getting something done, then this is fairly dispicable.


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## redfedora

RonanC said:


> Very good handbook on residents associations here.


read something similiar before by the local council in my area, But I was told that it should be registered with the CRO as a non profit type organisation. hence the memo and arts and I fully understand the obligation to file ARs

though the above booklet is good, Fingal need to get their facts straight because they are providing authority to individuals that do not have that authority:



			
				Fingal said:
			
		

> your local Residents Association represents all members of your estate/area,


 

that's a falacy, legally they cant represent *all *people living in an estate unless *all* people living in that estate actually give them the authority to do so. all they can do is represent *their members* and there's a world of difference. ​ 


another important fact about the constitution is ​




> Outsiders, especially potential funders, will want to see that your group is democratic and accountable. This involves having a clear procedure by which decisions are made


​ 




or in the OPs case potential members, ​



hence why i said the OP should ensure there is one in place to make sure it is properly run and governed. ​ 




			
				Complainer said:
			
		

> What if baby David trips on the uncut grass and breaks a leg while you're fretting about the paper work? Who's going to pay his compo then?


 


its a public place, Sooo I'm going to go out on a limb her and say who ever has responsibility for that would be liable, and that would be the local council.​ 


BTW thrust me i do a lot for my area, if you check my posts you can probably gather what i do in the estate where i live.​ 


I'm not getting paralysis, i'm pragmatic all the things i mentioned are because 20 years ago baby david would have been told to suck it up, today the slightest little scratch and his mommy and poppy is picking up the phone and calling their solicitor coz they have them on speed dial.​ 


if you want to create a group like this you have an obligation to protect the liability of your members, to do otherwise would be a fup up of epic proportion IMO​


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## Jane Doe

Update

They came to me for the fee!! and i asked if they had a constitution. They said _"no we're just interested in grass cutting and keeping the area tidy_." I raised concerns about certain problems here, small enough to be fair and was given the fob off/_"we have no money_". said i would think about it.

I agree with a lot of what redfedora says about getting it right

Thans for the feedback everyone


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## Yorrick

Don't pay and sponge off your neighbours.


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## col

I agree with Yorrick. Let other residents pay for the upkeep. Its people like you that make this country great.


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## Jane Doe

col said:


> I agree with Yorrick. Let other residents pay for the upkeep. Its people like you that make this country great.


why don't you and yorrick keep out of it


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## fraggle

jane doe said:


> why don't you and yorrick keep out of it


 
lol!


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## mercman

Jane Doe said:


> why don't you and yorrick keep out of it



Is this thread a rant or a way of Letting off Steam. OP asked a question and when others reply and they do not like the replies off they go blowing those that offer opinions out of it. IMO this should be moved to 'Letting off Steam' or better still this thread should be closed.


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## redfedora

why? the OPs question was a valid on.  yoricks last comment was about as useful as a tits on a bull coz it added lots to the discussion.

@jane Doe my personal opinion is run a mile, when you raised legit concerns they had no interest.  they want money to cut the grass because all they are interested in is the visual aspect of the estate and not actually working as a residents group and tackle all problems in the estate. just my two cent


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## aristotle

redfedora said:


> @jane Doe my personal opinion is run a mile, when you raised legit concerns they had no interest. they want money to cut the grass because all they are interested in is the visual aspect of the estate and not actually working as a residents group and tackle all problems in the estate. just my two cent


 
If you are so concerned about "they" and "them" why don't you join the residents committee and comit your own free time to try to make the estate that YOU live in a better place.


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## monagt

*everybody's interest*



Jane Doe said:


> Update
> 
> They came to me for the fee!! and i asked if they had a constitution. They said _"no we're just interested in grass cutting and keeping the area tidy_." I raised concerns about certain problems here, small enough to be fair and was given the fob off/_"we have no money_". said i would think about it.
> 
> I agree with a lot of what redfedora says about getting it right
> 
> Thans for the feedback everyone



Its in everyones interest to keep the estate clean & tidy, it encourages people to look after their own gardens, not throw litter, etc.

The committee should have elected members and produce accounts showing how they spent the last collection and balance.

Also, they should listen to residents concerns and invite interested people to join the committee.


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## redfedora

aristotle said:


> If you are so concerned about "they" and "them" why don't you join the residents committee and comit your own free time to try to make the estate that YOU live in a better place.


 

you obviously havent read the part where i said *i was already involved in my community* AND more importantly the fact that i dont know the OP from adam but can be pretty sure based on the info given *i dont live in their estate* so it would be a practicale impossibility for me to be involved in their estate and residents association now wouldnt it 

the fact that this group are only interested in grass being cut and no other legit concers would for me at least cause alarm bells to go off, I offered advice based upon experience, you can like it or not i couldnt give a damn to be honest. the OP asked for advice on something, it was something i had knowledge and experience of so i gave my 2 cent
the fact that your only contribution apart from the above is 



> You are thinking too much about this. Give them the 30 euro or whatever and after a few months you will likely see the estate looking neater and tidier, with the grass cut etc. You'll wonder why you flustered with the decision then.


 
this would make me think that you, like the RA mentioned above are only interested in the visual astetics of the estate and how it apprears to the eye and not in actually improving the community. grass doesnt make a community, also its not about us and them, your sadly mistaken to think otherwise, its about ensuring that if you allow *them* to represent *your* interests then you better make sure that *they* are actually doing it. as was posted above 


monagt said:


> they should listen to residents concerns and invite interested people to join the committee.


from the info posted above by the OP, to me at least it would appear that *they* are only interested in what *they* want and not what *owners* want which is what an RA should be about.


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## Lei86

My street collects €2 a week but not from rented houses which make up about 50% of the street. We don't see anything for this.


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## aristotle

redfedora said:


> this would make me think that you, like the RA mentioned above are only interested in the visual astetics of the estate and how it apprears to the eye and not in actually improving the community. .


 
Suppose you are free to make any assumptions you want.


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## redfedora

aristotle said:


> Suppose you are free to make any assumptions you want.


 
bit like the  assumption you made about me not being involved in my community or the fact that i was concerned about *me* and *them*. i guess you just forgot to actually read my posts. I dont suppose you're in this RA that the OP is talking about or in a similiar one? 

like i said *I* would be concerned that if a group proposing to represent my interests at the first instance ignored my interests whilst looking for money. I'd personaly tell them where to stick their request. see to me actions speak volumes, the act of ignoring the OPs concerns when they knock on the door looking to represent them and wanting the OP to hand over his/her hard earned money speaks volumes.


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## redfedora

Lei86 said:


> My street collects €2 a week but not from rented houses which make up about 50% of the street. We don't see anything for this.


 

so you pay an association €104 per house a year. can i ask how many houses contribute? lets for the sake of arguement say there are 100 properties. that means this group collects €10,400 per year and accorging to Lei86 nothing is done. where's teh 10K gone? stationary? 

do they cut the grass, plant flowers, maintain any part of the estate?


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## serotoninsid

redfedora said:


> so you pay an association €104 per house a year. can i ask how many houses contribute? lets for the sake of arguement say there are 100 properties. that means this group collects €10,400 per year and accorging to Lei86 nothing is done. where's teh 10K gone? stationary?
> 
> do they cut the grass, plant flowers, maintain any part of the estate?


There has to be transparency.  We only started this last year but it was demonstrated where the € was going.  I would say this is a very basic requirement ie. a breakdown of costs.  If I was you, I would ask for this - or withhold.

One other thing while i'm on the subject. Very frustrating in that some people will pay and some wont - although I originally thought myself lucky not to have moved into an estate with a 'management complany' - now that many of these have cut back and charge something reasonable, I feel that it would be best if there was one in place in hindsight.  It means people must pay (at least thats my understanding???) and keeping an estate that little bit more in check will make so much more difference in both the short and longer term.

As regards the points raised about folks not being happy with the focus of the RA, they are after all your neighbours - and they are entitled to their opinion - and surely only the overall (majority) approach can be adopted?
Is it not better then to influence from within?  Ours came about as a result of 'aesthetics' - but if the 'aesthetics' don't get looked after, the social problems will certainly follow!

Just my 2 cents.


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## csirl

I live in Dublin and the City Council regularly cuts the grass in our common areas, prunes the trees (and replaces them when required), does weeding, sweeps the street etc. etc. - as would be expected in any suburban area. 

It seems strange to have people talking about RAs having to collect money to cut grass. Do councils in some parts of the country not cut grass etc. on council owned green areas? Or are we talking about managed estates where the management company has gone awol?

Years ago there used to be a guy going around our estate (and some others in the area) once a month collecting money for the residents association. A good proportion of the neighbourhood used to pay him - until they coped on that there was no active RA. Nobody knows where the money was going, but it is assumed it was a scam.


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## fobs

As far as I know the Cork county council does not cut the grass in any estate. We used to get a grant towards our grass cutting but did not this year. We have 35 houses and we pay 150 each this year to maintain the greens. Our contractor charges €200 per cut. 

Out of the 35 houses 10 have yet to pay this year. Different houses take over the collection each year and it has been various amounts (when we got a grant it was as low as €75 one year).

Some houses have paid every year,some paid for first time this year (never having paid in past) and others not paying for first time this year due to others not paying for previous years!

 It is a thankless job trying to collect to maintain the greens. We are lucky to have a lot of green areas but some residents are turining it into a tit-for-tat on paying. If everyone paid next years fee would be reduced!


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## shesells

Most county councils have now got the the point where they will only take new developments in charge where the development remains responsible for grounds maintenance - they do not maintain grass or green areas in new estates, with so many new estates they can't afford to.

The difference is that most developments being taken in charge now have to retain a management company even after being taken in charge so the legally binding contracts signed at purchase means people have to pay.


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## Le_Dieux

beldin said:


> However they can publish a list of people who payed, with thanks.


 
Hi

Are You CERTAIN about this? The reason for me asking is this: I am a member of a Resident's Association (RA) and we are also wondering if we can publish those who have or not paid.

I am aware that we cannot publish those who haven't paid, but wasn't aware that we can publish those who have.  Please can someone issue us with the legal standing on this?


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## Jane Doe

Le_Dieux said:


> Hi
> 
> Are You CERTAIN about this? The reason for me asking is this: I am a member of a Resident's Association (RA) and we are also wondering if we can publish those who have or not paid.
> 
> I am aware that we cannot publish those who haven't paid, but wasn't aware that we can publish those who have.  Please can someone issue us with the legal standing on this?


i am justcurious as to why you want to publish a list of payees? Is it to ackknowledge those who have or to show up those who haven't. i do not known the law but wonder would publising the 'have paids' infer the identity of the 'have not paids' and if that would be a problem. Out of interest does you RA have a constitution?


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## Le_Dieux

Yes we do have a constitution. We have been in operation for 4 years now. Our local CC has taken in charge of the Estate, but they have yet to cut the grass. 

Why do we want to publish? To show who cares for their Estate. Sure there is NO OBLIGATION on any to pay, and many don't through various reasons eg rentals. We also have 2 clean ups a year. But on both counts its the same faces always, and the ones who do the moaning on our website contribute nothing - thats a fact. I just feel the law was in favour of those who wanted to not pay, but when I read above that we can publish those who have paid, I was just wondering if thats legally ok to do so. Also, as You mention, to acknowledge those who do pay.


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## Jane Doe

Le_Dieux said:


> Yes we do have a constitution. We have been in operation for 4 years now. Our local CC has taken in charge of the Estate, but they have yet to cut the grass.


good for you re constitution. CC will not cut grass anymore to my knowledge



> Why do we want to publish? To show who cares for their Estate. Sure there is NO OBLIGATION on any to pay, and many don't through various reasons eg rentals. We also have 2 clean ups a year. But on both counts its the same faces always, and the ones who do the moaning on our website contribute nothing - thats a fact. I just feel the law was in favour of those who wanted to not pay, but when I read above that we can publish those who have paid, I was just wondering if thats legally ok to do so.


afraid i cannot tell you the legal situ. The only problem i can see is it is possibly inferring something negative about the people who are not on the list? I don't know though. Let us know when you find out PS if you use the search there are many threads on RA's and on Boards too I think


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## Le_Dieux

Jane Doe said:


> good for you re constitution. CC wull not cut gras anytmore to my knowledge
> 
> We fought to get handed over to the CC. We had a management company for a year, renewal time came along, and they wanted to up the fee by FIFTY THREE%. A group of us met with them to fight to bring this increase down, which we eventually did to 29% - still a crazy increase in our opinion. We then approached our TD's etc, and eventually got the local CC to take in charge the Estate. Before we started our RA, we surveyed other Estates the CC had in charge, and discovered they cut the grass and left the much there to be dragged all over the Estate and into houses etc. We decided to go the 'do our own landscaping route'.
> 
> And TBH...NO REGRETS since.


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## serotoninsid

@ Le_Dieux:  Out of curiosity, what % of residents pay the fee?


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## Marconi2012

*30 euro a lot cheaper than a management fee of €1000 plus!*

Just 30 euro- I would pay up without any questions- beats having to pay 1000 + management fees in some areas...


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## Le_Dieux

serotoninsid said:


> @ Le_Dieux: Out of curiosity, what % of residents pay the fee?


 
Serotoninsid, about 40-45% paid. The sad part was it was nearly always the same people paying every year. Thats why I was wondering could I print the house numbers as I do feel they should be praised. We also got a grant from our CC this year to assist with the upkeep - nothing to be sneezed at either


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## shesells

BrianDublin said:


> Just 30 euro- I would pay up without any questions- beats having to pay 1000 + management fees in some areas...



In general residents association money goes towards basic upkeep of green areas. Management fees cover block insurance, refuse, landscaping, common area maintenance...totally different responsibilities


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## redfedora

shesells said:


> . Management fees cover block insurance, refuse, landscaping, common area maintenance...totally different responsibilities


 

exactly also as the estate is now in the hands of the CC, who covers insurance, block maintenance and everything else that is usally covered by the service charge? Also as the estate is now in CC hands there is no legal reason for the other 55% of owners to pay, they are no longer in a managed estate, there is no lease/management agreement in place. also publishing a list of those that have paid would infer those that had not and though not a direct breach of the data protection act would most possibly be still a breach through that inference, i.e. you publish data that can be used to identify those that had not paid


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## serotoninsid

redfedora said:


> Also publishing a list of those that have paid would infer those that had not and though not a direct breach of the data protection act would most possibly be still a breach through that inference, i.e. you publish data that can be used to identify those that had not paid


It will be interesting to see if someone has a definitive answer on this.  However, it would be unfortunate (in my opinion) if data protection wins out in this instance.  All too often, a sizable minority sit back and benefit from something that others have to take the hit on.  I appreciate that this thread started out on the track that some object to a RA on the basis of the objective of the RA.  However, isn't it best to influence from within (seeing as you otherwise benefit from the activities of the RA ...whether you see it that way or not)?

i have often thought about how much more could be achieved and how much less a financial burden there would be if everyone chipped in (but that will never happen).


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## redfedora

serotoninsid said:


> However, it would be unfortunate (in my opinion) if data protection wins out in this instance.


thats as close to definitive as you'll get, firstly by circulating teh list of who has paid you've breached the DPA secondly the inferance is most probably a breach because it clearly identifies an individual who hasnt paid. all people have to do is add 2+2



serotoninsid said:


> All too often, a sizable minority sit back and benefit from something that others have to take the hit on.


 this is true, the same can be said about those that withhold service charges in managed estates
but as the estate is now in the hands of the council then there is no obligation, legal or otherwise to pay, the counter arguement is "i pay my taxes, its now a council estate so the council can do it FOC coz its paid for in my taxes"



serotoninsid said:


> i have often thought about how much more could be achieved and how much less a financial burden there would be if everyone chipped in (but that will never happen).


owner managed estates can also be less of a financial burden if everyone chipped in and paid up, if the directors could negotiate the agent fee and the agent actually looked for the best price instead of giving work to the same old contractors. 2 years ago my SC went up by €220 to cover a sklight increase in some costs and teh rest so insurance could be paid because a large group of pewople refused to pay. if the MC recovered this outstanding money it would equal about 50% of one years full fee its outstanding that long. so this could be used to reduce costs while still maintaing full services.  

the problem is three fold
1) people cant pay coz they dont have it
2) people wont pay coz they are bottom feeders and expect everything for free
2) people wont pay as they see no real point, why should i when paddy up the road isnt and enjoys the same benifits


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## serotoninsid

redfedora said:


> thats as close to definitive as you'll get, firstly by circulating the list of who has paid you've breached the DPA secondly the inferance is most probably a breach because it clearly identifies an individual who hasnt paid. all people have to do is add 2+2


I see your point - but is that the way it will be seen in the eyes of the law (and the DPA)?  That was the question.



redfedora said:


> this is true, the same can be said about those that withhold service charges in managed estates
> owner managed estates can also be less of a financial burden if everyone chipped in and paid up


Sure - agreed - 100%


redfedora said:


> but as the estate is now in the hands of the council then there is no obligation, legal or otherwise to pay, the counter arguement is "i pay my taxes, its now a council estate so the council can do it FOC coz its paid for in my taxes"


A valid point. However the reality of the situation is that the Council (and particularly now in this current environment) will not be bothered either way....in which case, your estate will go to sh1t.  I know many folks mentioned at the beginning of this thread that they had issues with their respective RA's as they were focused on aesthetics.  However, it's very naive to underestimate the aesthetics - as thats where the downfall of the area begins.  Long grass and god knows what else - and those that are seeking to rent properties will only be able to do so via a deal with Council Housing - which will lead to all types (no disrespect to the many respectable people that happen to fall into this category ...alongside the anti-social types) moving in.  And the wrecking ball gathers momentum from there on in - all the other problems follow - and its next to impossible to reverse this once it's happened.  



redfedora said:


> 1) people cant pay coz they dont have it
> 2) people wont pay coz they are bottom feeders and expect everything for free
> 3) people wont pay as they see no real point, why should i when paddy up the road isnt and enjoys the same benifits


Of course, I empathise with those who fall into category 1 - but not to the extent that I wouldn't be motivated to do all I can to insure that my estate (and by inferrence - my own property) gets dragged down as a consequence.  No matter what angle people approach this from (ie. the investor properties, the real home owners or those that might aspire to trading up at some stage) - they will all be affected if things go downhill.  Either they won't be able to achieve quality rental, dropping standards within the estate could well have implications for those who plan to stay (for their kids in the long run - and the likelihood of theft, etc) and those who aspire to sell up at some stage (I'm sure you can see how this could affect final sales price).
Category 2 & 3 - don't have my sympathises - their short-sightedness is far from intelligent.


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## Butter

In Meath the CC won't cut the grass or do any landscape maintenance.  Private estates have to fund it themselves whether through a voluntary RA collecting fees or a management company collecting fees.  The difference is that one is voluntary and one is a legal contract.  Imo RAs should have a constitution and should publish accounts and must have insurance.
I am well familiar with the job of a director of a management company in an estate where the responsibility is only for grass cutting & landscaping. I can tell you that it a thankless, stressful job.  Neighbours that you thought were friends will fall out with you over a small amount of money, people will refuse to pay for spurious reasons despite signing a legal contract, and people who turn up at meetings mostly do nothing but bitch and moan but won't give up their free time to get involved.
The only reason I keep doing it is to protect my investment in my house as I genuinely feel that without proper landscaping a large housing estate will quickly get run-down and will be treated by the locale as the sink estate of the area.  I don't want that to happen to the place that I live so I put up with all the sh!t.

I'm sure that not everyone will agree with my opinion - but I think that you owe it to the area that you live in and your neighbours to pay your share.  If you think that the RA/management company is not being run properly - then get involved!!!


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## 13_monkeys

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but this one interests me as I had a knock on the door this evening from someone from the estate's residents association asking for €80 for this year. I played temporarily broke to give myself some time to think about it.

I'm renting the property, moved in 6 weeks ago, and no one told me anything before I moved in about any extra charges. Last week my landlady tells me she's putting the house on the market, so chances are I'll have to start looking for a new house in a couple of months - maybe longer if it takes time to sell.

It's a well maintained estate of about 150 houses with a lot of green areas that need trimming. After thinking about it for some time, I'm left with a few conclusions that haven't really been raised on this thread.



 From my time living here, it seems to me that families with young kids benefit most from well maintained grass areas, as it's always the kids who use it. I have no kids or family, and never use the grass areas. The only way I benefit is in the aesthetic - isn't that a pretty garden? kind of thing, and the truth is, that just doesn't interest me.
 A well maintained estate adds or at least helps maintain property values. But I'm renting. I don't care about the value of the house I live in. I can see that the owner/landlord would benefit in that regard, but not me.
 With the house now on the market, chances are I'm a short term tenant. The livelihood and harmony of the estate are therefore not of any importance to me.
 
Basically, I have no intention of paying - for the reasons outlined above. If I owned the property, I probably would. If I thought I'd be here for the year, I probably would - though begrudgingly (reasons 1 and 2). And if I had young kids out playing football with the other kids, then I probably would.

Bottom line is, you can't expect the same regard for the open areas from the occupants of each property. People on this thread are assuming, incorrectly, that everyone should love and have the same regard for the grassy knolls as they do.


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## onq

You didn't resurrect this thread, it only went quiet a month ago.

You come across as more of an apartment dweller and so estates aren't for you.

Having said that, €80 seems a high price to pay and I would question what benefits you would accrue, not being a house owner.

ONQ.


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## RonanC

We've recently formed a rather large residents association, which is made up of several different estates and roads, but all sharing common ground and for the moment we wont be charging any fee, but this could easily change depending on the direction we take. At present, we havnt had any need to collect any money. The council maintain the roads, parks, green areas and so on. 

However, there has been a large planning application made in the area and the association knocked on doors, made residents aware of the situation, and asked for their input and opinion on the proposed development. We had a petition signed against the planning application and we may need to object to An Bord Pleanala, which will take a considerable amount of money. This is when the residents association fee will be required, but thats only if the residents want to fight on. I would also see the fee being used to go beyond the good work the council do in the area, by planting more shrubs, trees & flowers, doing weekly or monthly clean ups, and maybe even having a street party and bringing the community together.


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## Jane Doe

13_monkeys said:


> Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but this one interests me as I had a knock on the door this evening from someone from the estate's residents association asking for €80 for this year. I played temporarily broke to give myself some time to think about it.
> 
> I'm renting the property, moved in 6 weeks ago, and no one told me anything before I moved in about any extra charges. Last week my landlady tells me she's putting the house on the market, so chances are I'll have to start looking for a new house in a couple of months - maybe longer if it takes time to sell.
> 
> It's a well maintained estate of about 150 houses with a lot of green areas that need trimming. After thinking about it for some time, I'm left with a few conclusions that haven't really been raised on this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> From my time living here, it seems to me that families with young kids benefit most from well maintained grass areas, as it's always the kids who use it. I have no kids or family, and never use the grass areas. The only way I benefit is in the aesthetic - isn't that a pretty garden? kind of thing, and the truth is, that just doesn't interest me.
> A well maintained estate adds or at least helps maintain property values. But I'm renting. I don't care about the value of the house I live in. I can see that the owner/landlord would benefit in that regard, but not me.
> With the house now on the market, chances are I'm a short term tenant. The livelihood and harmony of the estate are therefore not of any importance to me.
> 
> Basically, I have no intention of paying - for the reasons outlined above. If I owned the property, I probably would. If I thought I'd be here for the year, I probably would - though begrudgingly (reasons 1 and 2). And if I had young kids out playing football with the other kids, then I probably would.
> 
> Bottom line is, you can't expect the same regard for the open areas from the occupants of each property. People on this thread are assuming, incorrectly, *that everyone should love and have the same regard for the grassy knolls as they do*.


it is nice to have the grassy knolls tidy though. I did not join yet as no constitution/accountability. And  people they got to do the grass did it very bad . also members do not seem to have much input and there does not seem to be much transparency. if there was i would pay to have the grassy knolls tidy/neat even though i do not use them either


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## serotoninsid

Jane Doe said:


> members do not seem to have much input and there does not seem to be much transparency.


Surely you as a member would have just as much 'input' as all the other members?  If not, then your right not to participate.



Jane Doe said:


> i would pay to have the grassy knolls tidy/neat even though i do not use them either


Everybody 'uses' them by default.  If they're long and uncared for - you  will see (within a fairly rapid timespan) that this will be the start of the 'rot' setting in - leading on to other issues.  Having said that, I don't think anybody who is renting should have to pay.



Jane Doe said:


> And  people they got to do the grass did it very bad.


Same in our case - albeit that we changed fairly quickly to someone who could do it properly.  Then again, you can only influence from the inside...


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## Jane Doe

serotoninsid said:


> Surely you as a member would have just as *much 'input' as all the other members?*  If not, then your right not to participate.


which is very little so i am told


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## onq

john martin said:


> When you look at the modern alternitive of management companies and the outrageous charges involved you should be very grateful to have unpaid volunteers looking after your interests for a paltry 30 euro per year.



I have to say this is the most sensible post I have heard in this subject in a long time, John.

I gave of my time unstintingly for seven years on a residents association and wouldn't take back or begrudge a minute of it, but it all came to a head at one meeting where I was the subject of attack because a solicitor - whom we had all agreed to retain - billed us for a few thousand Euro.

He had accounted for the work and it was entirely in line with two other quotations for this work which we had received prior to appointing him.

At that point I confess I did get a little annoyed, listed out the work I had done _gratis_ for the previous six years and gave them a bare-bones estimate of what it _should_ have cost them if I had been retained privately by them as a planning consultant.

It was a significant multiple of the solicitors fees.
After that the meeting progressed speedily to the desired conclusion.

But it is a sign that people are only to ready to complain with people do things for them for a fee and happy to take for granted people who do things for them for nothing.

€30 a year residents association fee is very reasonable, but with the caveat that members concerns should be listened to and addressed and the accounts should be presented at each AGM and value sought on review.

ONQ.


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## serotoninsid

Jane Doe said:


> which is very little so i am told


Ok - but nevertheless, each and every member has an equal say, correct?


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## One

I can't understand this thread at all. The residents association wnat to collect €30 to get the grass cut every year. That seems very reasonable. I don't know why on earth a constitution is needed for a residents association. What happens in residents associations when people won't pay is that the volunteers will get annoyed and walk away. And those that complain won't bother getting involved. Honest to God, if somebody asked me for a constitution if I was trying to get grass in a housing estate cut I would think it bizarre in the extreme.


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