# Carbon Tax ?



## ajapale (15 Oct 2003)

Does any one know what carbon tax is?

If it were to be introduced would it be by the Finance Mininster as part of the Finance Bill or by some other minister?

ajapale


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## Ishmael Whale (18 Oct 2003)

*Seems to be Finance*

Carbon Tax

It seems to be the Minister for Finance, but with others involved. Above is a consultation paper launched by Charlie McCreevy


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## Squirrel Baggins (21 Oct 2003)

*Abolish car tax too*

Reading the material suggests that this is really just a foregone conclusion. The origins of this tax come from our commitments under Kyoto to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. If nothing is done we will overshoot our commitment – apparently we produce more greenhouse gases per capita than rest of Europe. (Incidently, peat seems to be a dirtier fuel than oil, which surprised me.)

If we break our Kyoto limits we will be obliged to pay a fine, which could be as much as E240m. p.a. So another aspect of the tax is that the polluter pays principle would dictate that this cost be levied on fuel consumption. 

However the tax is primarily aimed at changing behaviour like the plastic bag tax. They estimate that 10% increase in the price of  carbon fuel will cause a 5% in greenhouse gas emissions over time. They therefore propose to phase a tax in from the next budget, and increase it over the next two to three years to what is deemed to be the right rate to promote behaviour that meets our Kyoto targets. In practical terms, the costs of fuel will increase by the amounts in the following table:

Fuel                        Retail Unit         Next Budget   Ultimately

Peat - Briquette          Bale          ˆ         0.195             0.520

Coal                        40kg Bag  ˆ        0.897             2.391

                               Tonne       ˆ         22.4               59.8

Oil – Heating             Litre          ˆ         0.029             0.077

Oil – Motor               Litre          ˆ         0.028             0.074

LPG                         Litre          ˆ         0.014             0.038

The only point we might think of is, given this will be in the budget anyway, suggest the simultaneous abolition of car tax and shifting of that burden onto motor fuel as well - meet the Kyoto targets and save on administration at the same time.

Natural Gas               kWh          ˆ        0.0014           0.0037


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## umberto (21 Oct 2003)

*Kyoto*

Another reason to hate the Americans.

According to the book 'Stupid White Men' the hole in the ozone is now two and a half times the size of Europe. 

The Americans, who are probably one of the worst offenders, will not sign the Agreement.


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## jem (22 Oct 2003)

*Re: Kyoto*



> 'Stupid White Men'



I read the book also. Didn't know whether to laugh or cry at Gbush etc.


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## darag (22 Oct 2003)

*Re: Kyoto*

actually moore is wrong.  the ozone hole has been getting
smaller over the last few years and is expect to show signs
of closing by 2005.  currently it is expected to completely
close by 2050.

kyoto has nothing to do with ozone; it concerns carbon
dioxide emissions.  the threat to the ozone layer was 
addressed by the montreal protocol which the americans
did sign up to.

the first chapter of "stupid white man" is great.  the rest
of it is This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language and full of inaccuracies or downright lies.  a 
great book for anyone who wants "a reason to hate 
americans" but a waste of time for anyone interested in
facts or reality.


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## shnaek (28 Jul 2008)

*Carbon tax - what form would it take?*

I see the greens are keen on introducing a carbon tax asap, and according to the Business Post they feel it could happen in the next budget. 
However, there is no detail on what form this carbon tax would take. 
Would it mean further increases in the cost of electricity, gas, and oil?
Is that a good idea, given our current economic climate?


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## badabing (28 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*

The easiest way to do it would be to put a tax add on on the price of polluting fuels for heating, processing and transport. But given that governments are under pressure to get the cost of food and fuel down this will be highly unpopular. People will say we have no alternative...and in many cases they don't.


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## dockingtrade (28 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*

the greens should concentrate on the energy/fuel companies using more alternative sources and tax or penalise them if they dont. Not tax the ordinary who has little choice.


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## room305 (28 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



dockingtrade said:


> the greens should concentrate on the energy/fuel companies using more alternative sources and tax or penalise them if they dont. Not tax the ordinary who has little choice.


 
Doesn't make a difference. If they force energy companies to use more expensive methods of energy generation the additional cost will be pushed onto the customer anyway.


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## diarmuidc (29 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*

A carbon tax makes sense if you believe that CO2 emissions are causing Global Warming (and obviously the contrary). Also this assumes that the tax revenues are then used to promote R&D into cleaner energy production (wind/solar/nuclear/etc...)

Good reading here if you are interested in sustainable energy.


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## leesider29 (29 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*

As regards transport I would go with the idea that car tax is scrapped altogether and that this charge instead goes onto the fuel so that those who travel the most and hence pollute the most pay the most.


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## jackswift (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



leesider29 said:


> As regards transport I would go with the idea that car tax is scrapped altogether and that this charge instead goes onto the fuel so that those who travel the most and hence pollute the most pay the most.


 You obviously don't have to drive very far.


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## diarmuidc (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



leesider29 said:


> As regards transport I would go with the idea that car tax is scrapped altogether and that this charge instead goes onto the fuel so that those who travel the most and hence pollute the most pay the most.


Of course that's the most sensible idea (like France does, no car tax, just fuel tax) but try and get the government to agree to that.



> You obviously don't have to drive very far.


Well the point is that if you do drive a lot you are using the roads the most and so should pay the most. Seems pretty fair and obvious

It's analogous to having a car park that costs €10/day to park your car or having a car park that charges €1/hour. The people who park for longer pay more.


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## leesider29 (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



jackswift said:


> You obviously don't have to drive very far.


 
Just to add I also think there should be some sort of tax breaks for those that it is a necessary for them to drive a part of their job......not for those you have to drive because they bought out in the comuter belt but for instance sales reps.


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## jhegarty (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



leesider29 said:


> .not for those you have to drive because they bought out in the comuter belt but for instance sales reps.




I don't think anyone chose to not be able to afford prices of houses nearer the city...


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## shnaek (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



diarmuidc said:


> Of course that's the most sensible idea (like France does, no car tax, just fuel tax) but try and get the government to agree to that.



Is that true about France? Funny how we constantly hear about more expensive fuel in places like France, but nobody mentions the absence of a car tax!
Knowing here of course we'll have VRT, car tax, fuel tax and a carbon levy too for good measure!


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## diarmuidc (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



shnaek said:


> Is that true about France?


Sure. I live in France and own a car. Petrol is around €1.53/l (I think) and  diesel is €1.39/l (that's what I use)



jhegarty said:


> I don't think anyone chose to not be able to afford prices of houses nearer the city...


I'm sure they don't. What's you solution? If people can't afford certain things others should subsidise them?


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## shnaek (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



diarmuidc said:


> Sure. I live in France and own a car. Petrol is around €1.53/l (I think) and  diesel is €1.39/l (that's what I use)


So how come Diesel is 10c a litre more expensive than petrol here in Ireland? We're paying above 1.40 here, and we pay car tax and VRT. To think they are thinking of bringing in another tax - maybe I'll move to France! What's it like over there, diarmuidc? Would you recommend the lifestyle?


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## diarmuidc (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



shnaek said:


> So how come Diesel is 10c a litre more expensive than petrol here in Ireland? We're paying above 1.40 here, and we pay car tax and VRT. To think they are thinking of bringing in another tax - maybe I'll move to France! What's it like over there, diarmuidc? Would you recommend the lifestyle?


I think the taxes applied to fuel is different between the countries. I wouldn't move to France to avoid tax (the opposite in fact)! Nice lifestyle though.


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## Protocol (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*

Here is an ESRI working paper on a carbon tax 

[broken link removed]


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## soy (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



leesider29 said:


> As regards transport I would go with the idea that car tax is scrapped altogether and that this charge instead goes onto the fuel so that those who travel the most and hence pollute the most pay the most.



I would almost guarantee that within 5yrs of the car tax being abolished we would see the introduction of a 'car levy' of some sort and that within another 5yrs we would be back to where we started with car tax, but also have higher fuel taxes. Similar stuff has happened before in Ireland.

I do think we will see some sort of carbon tax pretty soon. It will have nothing to do with the environment but instead will serve to make up the hole in the govt coffers due to the construction collapse. Cowan will pin it on the greens, and the combination of higher taxes and a worse economy will have bad electoral consequences for the greens.
(my predictions only and nothing to substantiate them)


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## diarmuidc (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



soy said:


> Similar stuff has happened before in Ireland.


In a democracy you get the government you deserve.


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## shnaek (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



diarmuidc said:


> In a democracy you get the government you deserve.



I'd argue that we get the government a majority deserve!


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## diarmuidc (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



shnaek said:


> I'd argue that we get the government a majority deserve!


Sure. I didn't specifically mean you, shnaek but you ,the Irish people.


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## room305 (30 Jul 2008)

*Re: Carbon tax - what form would it take?*



jhegarty said:


> I don't think anyone chose to not be able to afford prices of houses nearer the city...


 
Come now, they are plenty of (relatively) affordable houses in the city. I've lost count of the number of people who told me they had "no choice" but to purchase a €400k house in the commuter belt because houses in Dublin had become too expensive.

A quick trawl on Daft reveals nearly one and a half thousand 3 bed houses in Dublin in this price range.

Apologies for dragging things OT. Suffice to say, I agree with soy - we'll get nailed with a carbon tax to bail out the profligacies of the present administration.


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## shnaek (3 Mar 2009)

They will no doubt be as inventive as they can with this. And by inventive, I don't mean genius. I mean they'll have bits of it here and there so we won't 'notice' it too much. 

Thing is, any form of carbon tax is going to push up inflation. A carbon tax on diesel and petrol pushes up the cost of delivery of goods and thus pushes up prices here yet again. Our country is already expensive by European standards. Our tourism industry would be badly hit.

They may well add more tax to flights, thus making it harder for us to get the heck out of here!

Any way you look at it, it's hard to escape the fact that we are going back to the 80's.


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