# New Commerical vehical tax



## npgallag (24 Aug 2010)

Any views on Gormelys new plan..surely this is un-enforceable...??


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## UFOman (24 Aug 2010)

if Gormely would understand the law in place already twould be of help

if you pay commercial tax, you aren't allow use your commercial vehicle after work hours anyways, maybe he should police this?


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

A ridiculous move.

I'm a teacher and I have a commercial jeep. I use it to carry stuff to and from my school all the time. I don't have back seats, I don't carry passengers, I DOE it every year (costs the bones of €90), I have commercial insurance on it and I pay the commercial road tax rate.

I will sign any declaration stating that I use it in the course of my work but what am I to do ... not go to the shop in it? not take a family member in the seat beside me?

I had a car too ... I got rid of it because it spent most of its time in the garage. I use the jeep both for work and for my own use to get from a to b.

I bought a do upper house and I pay the property tax on it. I usually have the jeep full of something ... cement, timber, chainsaw, tools etc. so that I can work on the house.

Am I to be penalised for having a commercial that I use both for work and private use?


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## NHG (24 Aug 2010)

Sure can't you just tax and insure it privately as you used to do with your car.


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## Mpsox (24 Aug 2010)

NHG said:


> Sure can't you just tax and insure it privately as you used to do with your car.


 
My thoughts as well, given that your private insurance will normally cover your commute to and from work


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## JoeB (24 Aug 2010)

UFOman said:


> if you pay commercial tax, you aren't allow use your commercial vehicle after work hours anyways, maybe he should police this?



I wasn't aware of this. Do you have a link to a source? What if you do your commercial work at night?

Is it permissible to drive your commercial vehicle to and from your home and your place of business?

I have always used my van for private uses, and my insurance is valid for such uses.


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

Yeah right .... €1k road tax for a commercial vehicle per year.

Let me bend over now ...


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## aonfocaleile (24 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> A ridiculous move.
> 
> I'm a teacher and I have a commercial jeep. I use it to carry stuff to and from my school all the time. I don't have back seats, I don't carry passengers, I DOE it every year (costs the bones of €90), I have commercial insurance on it and I pay the commercial road tax rate.
> 
> ...



Teachers claiming they need commercial vehicles? I've heard it all now. Sounds to me like this is tax evasion, plain and simple. I drive to work, often with work-related papers/laptop. Does that mean I can tax my car at the commercial rate? Somehow I doubt it.


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

Nobody complains when I bring shelving in the jeep to put up in the school.

Nobody complains when the football equipment goes in the back of the jeep.

Nobody complains when I take stuff to the recycling centre in the back of the jeep.

Nobody complains when I bring tables to the church in the back of it.

etc. etc. etc. etc.

Not a day goes by but something related to my work isn't transported in it.

I didn't tax a car at commercial rate. It's a properly converted jeep. No back seats, blackened out windows and it is DOE tested every year.

I don't care what it sounds like .... I didn't evade tax. I CAN justify the use of the jeep for my work.

And no .... you can't tax your car at a commercial rate .... even if you wanted to.


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## Joe Q Public (24 Aug 2010)

This is a non story. Many county councils already make you sign a goods vehicle declaration before they will allow you to tax commercially. This has been the case in Wicklow for the last 10 years at least.


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## aonfocaleile (24 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> Nobody complains when I bring shelving in the jeep to put up in the school.
> 
> Nobody complains when the football equipment goes in the back of the jeep.
> 
> ...



 That doesn't make it a commercial vehicle, no matter how much more effort you put into your job or how often you use it for work-related purposes. I would also question how often you need to bring shelving to work? Or how often you have to throw the football kit into the back? In any event, thats all part and parcel of training a team, be it a school team or otherwise. You can attempt to justify it to yourself all you want, but you've taxed your vehicle at the commercial rate even though you don't use it to run a business.  I'm sure no one complains and I'm doubtful that many people even say thanks. BUT, its still tax evasion, no matter how worthy your trips in it.


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## thombom (24 Aug 2010)

It doesn't matter what occupation you have anyone can own a commercial vehicle.that Gormely fella is a fool and he needs a good kick up the backside, I think he lives in la la land half the time.I work days and nights so how is this new tax going to effect me.Gormely is a tool.....


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

Question away like mad ... I don't have to justify it for you.

Bottom line ... I use a commercial vehicle in the course of my work and  I'll sign the declaration when it comes my way and I'll be happy to take my chances with it and if I end up having my day in court I'll make my case there.

(and who says running a school isn't a business? It's certainly not a hobby.)


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## aonfocaleile (24 Aug 2010)

thombom said:


> that Gormely fella is a fool and he needs a good kick up the backside, I think he lives in la la land half the time.>



  I think we can all agree on that!


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## nediaaa (24 Aug 2010)

Running a school is the principal/headmasters job. Both him and you are employees in the public sector and as such are not running a business. you are not self employed or a director and in the course of your job do not need a commercial vehicle. they should ensure that only a self employed can have a commercial vehicle.


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

Who said I wasn't a Principal? and the Principal is in charge of 'the day to day running of the school' 

Teachers/Principals are employees of the Board of Management.

Perhaps I should get the BOM to pay the road tax!


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## aonfocaleile (24 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> Who said I wasn't a Principal? and the Principal is in charge of 'the day to day running of the school'
> 
> Teachers/Principals are employees of the Board of Management.
> 
> Perhaps I should get the BOM to pay the road tax!



 Perhaps you should if you're using the vehicle for that much work related stuff! Though if this were allowed/happened, there isn't a shred of doubt in my mind that all teachers would suddenly be running regular errands for their respective schools and that by consequence, in their own, self-righteous way of thinking, they would be "entitled" to have their motor tax paid for them.   Here's a better idea. Teachers can use the extra hour a week or month (whatever it is) that they have to work under the Croke Park agreement to run errands for the school using their cars. They could then legitimately seek to have their motor tax paid by their employer to offset the cost to them of the extra hour! Of course, teachers who don't drive couldn't avail of this and would have to be compensated in some way.  What a quandry.


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## DB74 (24 Aug 2010)

Whether you like it or not you don't need a commercial vehicle (or ANY vehicle for that matter) to be a teacher, no matter how much school stuff you use it for.

To claim otherwise is silly

On the issue of the motor tax, again I don't see why motor tax cannot be collected at the petrol pumps. The more you drive, the more you pay.

Simple!

+1 on the Gormley = fool comment as well!


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

Great suggestion ... aon focal eile agat?


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

DB74 ~ no you don't need any vehicle. Teachers can hitch a ride to work and carry everything on their backs.

Nowhere does it say that teachers are exluded from owning and taxing a commercial vehicle commercially.

And this is one teacher who'll sign the declaration that it's being used in the course of work.


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## DB74 (24 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> And this is one teacher who'll sign the declaration that it's being used in the course of work.


 
Illegally of course

Where does it say in your contract that you have to carry anything anywhere?

Fair play to you for doing all the lifting and carrying but if it's not part of your job then you are doing it voluntarily and if you are doing it voluntarily then you are not entitled to tax your vehicle as a commercial vehicle.

Don't get me wrong - I think it's a stupid law but being in breach of a stupid law is the same as being in breach of a good one.


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## nediaaa (24 Aug 2010)

you as you say are an employee and on your contract of employment it would state that you are employed to teach. all the other bits and pieces are your own efforts and you should be commended for that. i wouls say the main reason while you wont admit it is tax evasion.
 there must be alot of shelving at your school.
Can the football gear not fit in the boot of the car like every one else.
you did not state you were the principal but it still does not change any thing


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## aonfocaleile (24 Aug 2010)

DB74 said:


> On the issue of the motor tax, again I don't see why motor tax cannot be collected at the petrol pumps. The more you drive, the more you pay.


 I thought I heard something about this recently from Noel Dempsey....I'll look it up and post details if I can find them. The only danger is that the current Govt could well try and introduce it in addition to the existing motor tax system.


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

We'll agree to differ.

I am happy to sign a declaration and I'll deal with whatever (if any) fallout occurs because of it.


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## dudedude (24 Aug 2010)

i dont think it is possible to enforce this new idea, i constantly have work gear in the back of my jeep 24 hours a day 7 days a week, if stopped and asked by a Garda i would simply say im working!


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## jmrc (24 Aug 2010)

Can anyone let me know is there any truth in the rumor that in future in order to tax a commercial vehicle that one would need a VAT number...?


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## aonfocaleile (24 Aug 2010)

Its completely unenforceable and will go the same way as the ban on using mobile phones while driving or the law that says provisional drivers cannot drive unaccompanied. It will be largely ignored and only an unlucky few will be caught out.


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## Joe Q Public (24 Aug 2010)

Some places may ask for a VAT number but there is no need as many businesses do not have to register for VAT.


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## aonfocaleile (24 Aug 2010)

jmrc said:


> Can anyone let me know is there any truth in the rumor that in future in order to tax a commercial vehicle that one would need a VAT number...?



 That would mean massive changes to the VAT regieme which would be complicated and probably expensive to implement, so I doubt there's much truth in it.


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## demoivre (24 Aug 2010)

aonfocaleile said:


> Its completely unenforceable



+1. Not a hope of it being enforced.


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## JoeB (24 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> Question away like mad ... I don't have to justify it for you.
> 
> Bottom line ... I use a commercial vehicle in the course of my work and  I'll sign the declaration when it comes my way and I'll be happy to take my chances with it and if I end up having my day in court I'll make my case there.
> 
> (and who says running a school isn't a business? It's certainly not a hobby.)



The problem here is that your tax is commercial, apparently for commercial use only. Yet your insurance is likely for a private vehicle. So if you are stopped or crash what will you say?.. would you be using the vehicle for commercial or private use? If private then you are in breach of the commercial tax regime. If commercial then they might ask does your employer pay for the car, tax and insurance? It'd be strange to claim that it's a 'company car' if it's paid for privately.


What case will you make in court? That you consider yourself to be a commercial user?, even if you don't satisfy any of the tests for commercial use? How will you even be able to sign the declaration if you don't own or run a business? I doubt the police will allow you to sign the declaration without there being any evidence of you being a commercial user.


Overall all though I am a commercial driver, with commercial tax and insurance. I will likely continue to use the van for private use as it's my only vehicle, and my insurance is valid for private use. It's just the tax that'd be a problem. But I've never seen or being told that I'm only supposed to use the van for commercial reasons...


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

My insurance is commercial but it also covers me for S&P use.


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## Megan (24 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> Question away like mad ... I don't have to justify it for you.
> 
> Bottom line ... I use a commercial vehicle in the course of my work and  I'll sign the declaration when it comes my way and I'll be happy to take my chances with it and if I end up having my day in court I'll make my case there.
> 
> (and who says running a school isn't a business? It's certainly not a hobby.)



I would agree that running a school is a business but the point is it isn't your business. My understanding is this is getting at self employed people which you are not one off.
I think Gormley has missed the boat on this. Hasn't most self employed builders gone out of business.


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## DB74 (24 Aug 2010)

Megan said:


> I think Gormley has missed the boat on this. Hasn't most self employed builders gone out of business.


 
I would think this is entirely his point.

Previously self-employed builders are still driving commercial vehicles and availing of the low commercial motor tax rate but they are not using the vehicles for any work at all. So therefore they should have to pay normal motor tax rates like the rest of us.

Just add it to the list of virtually unenforceable laws that we have.


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## Ethan 1 (24 Aug 2010)

Where I work, at least 20% of the vehicles in the car park are small commercial, used 100% of the time as private, child seats and all , these are the people that Minister Gormley / the revenue are after, not some business owner getting a loaf of bread on the way home etc. AFAIK this is the norm in UK and rest of Europe, so it can and should be enforced. 

PS. JohnOB, you are evading not avoiding tax as you are not a business owner, which is against the law (in my opinion your some role model ).


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## Megan (24 Aug 2010)

DB74 said:


> I would think this is entirely his point.
> 
> Previously self-employed builders are still driving commercial vehicles and availing of the low commercial motor tax rate but they are not using the vehicles for any work at all. So therefore they should have to pay normal motor tax rates like the rest of us.
> 
> Just add it to the list of virtually unenforceable laws that we have.



A number of them that I knew don't have their jeeps anymore because they have been repossessed. Have to agree with you on the unenforceable law.


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## aonfocaleile (24 Aug 2010)

aonfocaleile said:


> I thought I heard something about this recently from Noel Dempsey....I'll look it up and post details if I can find them. The only danger is that the current Govt could well try and introduce it in addition to the existing motor tax system.



  [broken link removed]  Here's the link to the story re adding the motor tax to petrol charges.


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## JohnOB (24 Aug 2010)

Ethan 1 said:


> PS. JohnOB, you are evading not avoiding tax as you are not a business owner, which is against the law (in my opinion your some role model ).




Yeah ... I'm a great role model, I'm on par with the rest - bankers, politicians, criminals etc.


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## gocall01 (24 Aug 2010)

This is unenforceable, period.

I run a business, I have a commerical 4x4, twin cab.
It is insuranced and taxed through the company as a commerical.
It is used exclusively as a commerical bar 3 mornings per week.
On my way to work on these 3 morning I drop my to toddlers to the creche.
If someone came after me on this I think I might cry!

Anyway, unenforceable and it will not be IMO.


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## Guest125 (24 Aug 2010)

An easier way out for Gormley is to abolish commercial road tax altogether. Why should the private motorist always have to pay the highest rate? Tax all vehicles equally ie by weight or through the fuel.


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## number7 (25 Aug 2010)

It would appear to me that any efforts to increase the tax burden on business particularly the small and sole trader level would be extremley unadvisable in the current economic climate.

Most small businesses that I know of are really struggling to keep the doors open and keep their staff employed I would think that a move in the other direction would make more sense, free road tax for exclusive business use and a half full rate for duel commercial and private use. This would have to coincide with an adjustment in the insurance offered by insurance companies so that your insurance was invalid if you had the incorrect tax category.

I would also be in favour of all road tax being levied at the pump.


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## PaddyBloggit (25 Aug 2010)

*Free road tax for exclusive business use and a half full rate for duel commercial and private use.*==> sounds fair and reasonable but can you see it happening

*I would also be in favour of all road tax being levied at the pump.*  		==> totally agree and it would go with the adage the Greens are always throwing at us that the polluter pays. Again, I can't see it happening.


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## dereko1969 (25 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> Yeah ... I'm a great role model, I'm on par with the rest - bankers, politicians, criminals etc.


 
I presume during your long summer holidays that you change your motor tax from commercial to private?

Also whilst paying motor tax through the pump is a perfect example of 'polluter pays' and would be an ideal solution, the problem is that it would send our inflation rate through the roof, it's really an area where either an EU wide solution is required or a change to the rules on inflation.


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## JohnOB (25 Aug 2010)

Good presumption.

I race to the tax office, change over and then race back again at the end of the long summer holidays to change back again.

And, of course, don't forget the other breaks - Mid Term, Christmas, Easter, Holy Days of Obligation, half days, quarter days, three quarter days, snow bound days etc.

It's great for keeping the fitness up!


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## dereko1969 (25 Aug 2010)

Good to see a proper moral authority being passed on to the youth of today.

I've no problem with teachers holidays, I know they do a very hard job and like you many of them do unpaid work but that doesn't excuse flouting the law which is what you are doing, the fact that you are trying to fool yourself into thinking that you're compliant because you have a couple of shelves in the back of your jeep once in a blue moon is worrying.


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## JohnOB (25 Aug 2010)

and the drill, the screwdriver, the level and the rawl plugs

Regardless .... I have to head off to school now .... shelving and such to put up.


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## spreadsheet (25 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> and the drill, the screwdriver, the level and the rawl plugs
> 
> Regardless .... I have to head off to school now .... shelving and such to put up.



Don't forget to write off the petrol for tax. Actually your accountant should sort that out for you


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## Staples (25 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> and the drill, the screwdriver, the level and the rawl plugs
> 
> Regardless .... I have to head off to school now .... shelving and such to put up.


 

Is there any _teaching _at all in that school or is it just a cover for a builders providers?


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## Yachtie (25 Aug 2010)

Oh brilliant!!!! /sarcastic

As if it wasn't enough that my car ('07 hatchback) is worth nothing because:

1. the same model now sells for 6k less (new) due to the changed VRT
2. nobody will take it off me because my annual road tax is €456 vs. €156 for an '08 or newer one

all thanks to Mr. Gormley BUT now we (my husband, a struggling, small business owner and I) should buy another car to use instead of his commercial 4x4 in case he needs to run down to the shop for a pint of milk when I am out. Or God forbid our baby getting sick or having to be taken to A&E by his dad while I am out on my own. 

Do you think that Mr. Gormley ever took into consideration the carbon footprint of manufacturing yet another (unnecessary) car which he seems to want thousands of people to buy?


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## csirl (25 Aug 2010)

JohnOB said:


> and the drill, the screwdriver, the level and the rawl plugs
> 
> Regardless .... I have to head off to school now .... shelving and such to put up.


 
Is tax compliance one of your conditions of employment? Maybe you should check.


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## Shawady (25 Aug 2010)

Does anyone know if this applies to taxis?
I know taxi drivers pay less motor tax, presumably because it is a commercial vehicle.
Does this mean taxi drives would need a second car to do their non-work related driving. Sounds crazy.


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## callybags (25 Aug 2010)

A lot of posters seem to think that if this (existing) regulation is enforced, then it will involve buying a second car for private use.

Why would anyone consider this, when all that needs to be done is to tax the existing vehicle privately, as this is partly what it is being used for?


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## cork (25 Aug 2010)

Shawady said:


> Does anyone know if this applies to taxis?
> I know taxi drivers pay less motor tax, presumably because it is a commercial vehicle.




There is a special taxi tax class. 

It is less than €90pa

A declaration is only needed once.

The "declarations of non use" will probably be the next to go.


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## Staples (25 Aug 2010)

Yachtie said:


> now we (my husband, a struggling, small business owner and I) should buy another car to use instead of his commercial 4x4.


 
No. if the vehicle is to be used for non-commercial purposes, all you need to do is pay road tax at the appropriate rate. 



Yachtie said:


> in case he needs to run down to the shop for a pint of milk when I am out. Or God forbid our baby getting sick or having to be taken to A&E by his dad while I am out on my own.


 
My wife and I have one car between us. If, God forbid, I had to bring our child to the hospital while she was out, I'd have to get a taxi. If you're not prepared to pay road tax at the higher rate, couldn't you do that too?  As for the pint of milk, I'd do without till she got back.


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## cork (25 Aug 2010)

Checked out: www.corkcoco.ie

It only costs 82 to tax a taxi for the year.

It is about time a levy was added on to fuel to get rid of this tax.


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## micmclo (25 Aug 2010)

No road tax in Ireland, hurray.Where do posters get that from?

The hint is in the name www.motortax.ie 
And the motor tax you pay isn't even guranteed that it'll be spent on roads. It's all combined with other taxation

For certain there are families out there who have expensive 4x4's taxed as commerical. And the only use they'll ever see is the wife driving to the shops and soccer practice.
That is what this rule is supposed to crack down on.

But it seems to have caught everyone else in it too.
It's not going to be enforced anyway


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## Yachtie (25 Aug 2010)

Staples said:


> No. if the vehicle is to be used for non-commercial purposes, all you need to do is pay road tax at the appropriate rate.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife and I have one car between us. If, God forbid, I had to bring our child to the hospital while she was out, I'd have to get a taxi. If you're not prepared to pay road tax at the higher rate, couldn't you do that too? As for the pint of milk, I'd do without till she got back.


 

95% of the time, my husband uses his car for work so how do you pay appropriate rate of tax in that case? 95% commercial and 5% private? Not everyone is evading tax and it would be very unfair to tax a tradesman for a small private usage the same amount as a poser who simply had to have a 4x4 but doesn't really need it. We have a friend who has a commercial 4x4 (was substantially cheaper to buy than the non-commercial one) and the most he'd transport for work is his laptop bag and a mobile phone. By the same token, should any vehicle provided by the business be treated as a commercial? Or is that why those who have a company car have to pay BIK on their personal mileage?


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## cork (26 Aug 2010)

Best solution: just to add it on to the cost of fuel.


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## Staples (26 Aug 2010)

Yachtie said:


> 95% of the time, my husband uses his car for work so how do you pay appropriate rate of tax in that case? 95% commercial and 5% private? Not everyone is evading tax and it would be very unfair to tax a tradesman for a small private usage the same amount as a poser who simply had to have a 4x4 but doesn't really need it. We have a friend who has a commercial 4x4 (was substantially cheaper to buy than the non-commercial one) and the most he'd transport for work is his laptop bag and a mobile phone. By the same token, should any vehicle provided by the business be treated as a commercial? Or is that why those who have a company car have to pay BIK on their personal mileage?


 
The vehicle is either being used for social, domestic and personal purposes or it's not.  It's difficult enough to police this straightforward option without getting into the muddy area of proportional use.


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## Howitzer (26 Aug 2010)

Lol. Great windup JohnOB. Best laugh I've had in a long time.


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## Firefly (26 Aug 2010)

cork said:


> Best solution: just to add it on to the cost of fuel.


 
Agreed, but political suicide to introduce - lots of people commuting from the neighbouring counties into Dublin who would not be happy (1) the extra cost they would pay to commute and (2) the likely effect on the price of their home.


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## DB74 (26 Aug 2010)

Firefly said:


> Agreed, but political suicide to introduce - lots of people commuting from the neighbouring counties into Dublin who would not be happy (1) the extra cost they would pay to commute and (2) the likely effect on the price of their home.


 
I don't understand what you are saying here. Why would it be political suicide. Drive more = pay more. Plenty of people who live in these counties and use public transport to get to work would be delighted. Why should they subsidise those who want to drive to Dublin, which is the most accessible via public transport anyway? Who could have an issue with that?

And why would an increase in the cost of motor fuel (offset by the abolition of flat rate motor tax) affect the cost of houses in the suburbs.


Anyway, Minister Gormley himself has effectively said that it won't be enforced by using the magic term "gardaí will use their discretion"

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0826/motor_tax.html


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## bb12 (26 Aug 2010)

Staples said:


> No. if the vehicle is to be used for non-commercial purposes, all you need to do is pay road tax at the appropriate rate.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife and I have one car between us. If, God forbid, I had to bring our child to the hospital while she was out, I'd have to get a taxi. If you're not prepared to pay road tax at the higher rate, couldn't you do that too?  As for the pint of milk, I'd do without till she got back.



oh please!!!!!! so if you had a commerical you'd rather get a taxi than drive your sick child to the hospital? ha! 

i agree with the rest that this is totally unenforcable, but as will all new directives when first introduced, some stupid mugs out there are gonna get caught over the next few weeks and then it'll all be forgotten about and we'll all go back to normal. 

Surely the country has a lot more to worry about than stupid matters like this?


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## Firefly (26 Aug 2010)

DB74 said:


> I don't understand what you are saying here. Why would it be political suicide. Drive more = pay more. Plenty of people who live in these counties and use public transport to get to work would be delighted. Why should they subsidise those who want to drive to Dublin, which is the most accessible via public transport anyway? Who could have an issue with that?
> 
> And why would an increase in the cost of motor fuel (offset by the abolition of flat rate motor tax) affect the cost of houses in the suburbs.
> 
> ...


 
I should have qualified my view by adding that those areas not served by (adequate) public transport will suffer disproportionally, i.e. they may have no alternative but to drive to work. This will add to their already high fuel bills. In addition, it would make where they live less desirable. Don't get me wrong..personally I'm all for the idea. It would be a very efficient way to collect tax and the polluter would pay. The cynic in me would believe that if this was introduced then a few years down the line a "motor levy" might be also introduced.


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## Staples (26 Aug 2010)

bb12 said:


> oh please!!!!!! so if you had a commerical you'd rather get a taxi than drive your sick child to the hospital? ha!


 
My point is that if I felt there sufficient need for a back up car that I might need for emergencies, I'd ensure that it was appropriately taxed.

On the other hand, if I had the option to tax a second car at commercial rates, it would make it easier for me to acquire one. 

As it is, someone who drives a commercially-taxed vehicle for social/domestic purposes enjoys a benefit that I can't avail of. 



bb12 said:


> Surely the country has a lot more to worry about than stupid matters like this?


 
It's a form of tax evasion that seems to be on the increase. Whether you regard that as stupid is your own business.


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## thedaras (26 Aug 2010)

Firefly said:


> I should have qualified my view by adding
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is the problem..where in Ireland do we have adequate public transport?

If the government want us to use public transport they should really join up the dots..The problem is we need a reliable, adequate,transport system that actually serves the public,,it is just too unreliable.

One example ,is my brother who lives in blackrock, the nearest luas stop is sandyford,it is a half hour walk away.If they had a little bus running around the area,going from the luas to blackrock and surrounding areas, a lot more people would use the luas,this would mean that businesses along the luas line would have more customers.win win situation..but instead they have a double decker bus,which comes I think about every hour and hardly has any one on it..


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## roker (26 Aug 2010)

Self employed people, not only have lower road tax, but can claim VAT on diesel and fuel against income tax. Do they also claim this on private use?


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## DB74 (26 Aug 2010)

In theory self-employed taxpayers are not supposed to claim tax or reclaim VAT on personal use of the vehicle.

In practice ...


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## galleyslave (26 Aug 2010)

I've heard no mention yet of how the tax on large engined vehicles is totally outrageous - no wonder people try to fiddle it


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## npgallag (27 Aug 2010)

What i dont understand is how you would enforce this law....ok you sign a declaration when taxing the vehical but you dont need to produce a Vat no.. as far as i know.
And as below how would the gardai prove this...unless follow you round the place..if ya goin to shop and stopped you could say just goin to office....etc..I dont think there is one commerical vehical in the country that could claim not to be used for some private use.?

""This means parents taking their children to school, or people using their work vehicle for shopping or going to the pub or Mass, face the prospect of prosecution and a hefty increase in their motor tax bill if caught."
http://www.independent.ie/national-...spite-gormleys-claims-say-gardai-2313730.html


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## csirl (27 Aug 2010)

Can understand why these vehicles are taxed any differently? Businesses and self employed can write off the cost as an expense in their accounts, so in theory, it doesnt matter how much road tax they are charged, because it will be written off against tax anyway.


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## demoivre (27 Aug 2010)

It's unenforceable and therefore pointless. However it may well be the catalyst that ensures that after the next election the Greens are history. Fingers crossed.


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## dereko1969 (27 Aug 2010)

thedaras said:


> One example ,is *my brother who lives in blackrock*, the nearest luas stop is sandyford,it is a half hour walk away.If they had a little bus running around the area,going from the luas to blackrock and surrounding areas, a lot more people would use the luas,this would mean that businesses along the luas line would have more customers.win win situation..but instead they have a double decker bus,which comes I think about every hour and hardly has any one on it..


why does he have to use the luas? he has the DART, he has a very regular bus service in the 4/4a/7/45, and rather than walking to sandyford if he walked to the N11 he has the most frequent bus service in the city the 46a. The 114 isn't the greatest service, granted, but there are services in the morning when most people would want them.


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## demoivre (27 Aug 2010)

csirl said:


> Can understand why these vehicles are taxed any differently? Businesses and self employed can write off the cost as an expense in their accounts, so in theory, it doesnt matter how much road tax they are charged, because it will be written off against tax anyway.



If car tax is lower rather than higher a self employed person will have,  ceteris paribus, more disposable income.


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## cork (27 Aug 2010)

The Cork website now states:
For first time taxing of a  goods vehicle by an applicant
Goods vehicles that have a Gross Vehicle Weight of 3500kgs or less require a completed Form RF 111A - Goods Declaration Form.  It  requires an applicant who is applying for a vehicle to be taxed at the goods rate to provide a Revenue registration identity number to confirm that he or she has a business registered for tax purposes. All applicants should be asked to complete this form and be made aware that if the vehicle is used in any private capacity it must be taxed at the private rate. Proof of commercial insurance shall also be required with each application.


It looks as if existing goods vehicles now don't need the declaration.


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## galleyslave (27 Aug 2010)

there goes the sale of 4x4 commercials down the toilet! The motor trade will love this!


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## Deas (27 Aug 2010)

Staples said:


> My point is that if I felt there sufficient need for a back up car that I might need for emergencies, I'd ensure that it was appropriately taxed.
> 
> On the other hand, if I had the option to tax a second car at commercial rates, it would make it easier for me to acquire one.
> 
> ...


 
What you are advocating would appear to eliminate the use of commercial vehicles full-stop. The husband in this case is a business owner and has a legitmate reason the have a commercial vehicle. Are you saying that because they might use it less that 5% of the time (example) that they should tax it as private just to get milk and or take a child to hospital?

I think a bit of realism is required here.


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## Staples (27 Aug 2010)

Deas said:


> What you are advocating would appear to eliminate the use of commercial vehicles full-stop. The husband in this case is a business owner and has a legitmate reason the have a commercial vehicle. Are you saying that because they might use it less that 5% of the time (example) that they should tax it as private just to get milk and or take a child to hospital?
> 
> I think a bit of realism is required here.


 
My point is that if said husband gets stopped and questioned en route to his local Spar for the milk, how can it be established EITHER WAY that his journry is the exception rather than the rule.  How can it be established either way that he only uses his car 5% of the time for personal use.  it's hard enough to police as it is.

A more realistic system would be to have a single rate applicable to all categories of user.  As someone has already pointed out, business owners have the capacity to write this expense off against tax anyway.


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## galleyslave (27 Aug 2010)

not sure if they can write off personal motor tax against business tax bills, perhaps get an allowance for the commercial amount however, but thats it


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## Yachtie (27 Aug 2010)

Staples said:


> As it is, someone who drives a commercially-taxed vehicle for social/domestic purposes enjoys a benefit that I can't avail of.


 
In cases where individuals purchase a vehicle which is classed as commercial (by the relevant STATE body) for entirely private use, you are absolutely right and I agree with you! BUT I don't understand why you have such a huge problem with examples I have given earlier (minor private use of a legitimate commercial vehicle) especially given that a lot of people like my husband and I pay thousands in other types of tax, have done everything we possibly could to keep as many of his pre-recession employees employed, even at the cost of living on less than a minimum wage ourselves. Before you start, no we don't want a medal or anything because you wouldn't have enough for all the small business owners who are doing exactly the same but that's a completely different thread. Like everything in life, nothing is either black or white but there are many, many shades of grey.  



Yorky said:


> This is a sensible policy as there is wholescale abuse of this 'loophole'; soemone wants a 4x4 but don't want to pay the tax so they get a crewcab version and tax it as a commercial vehicle.
> 
> I know of plenty who are doing this. Come to think of it I don't know one owner of one of these vehicles who isn't.


 
IMHO, this is the bit that is very wrong and in *SUCH* cases, I agree that people should be made pay private rate of motor tax.



Staples said:


> My point is that if said husband gets stopped and questioned en route to his local Spar for the milk, how can it be established EITHER WAY that his journry is the exception rather than the rule. How can it be established either way that he only uses his car 5% of the time for personal use. it's hard enough to police as it is.


 
Ahem, all you or the garda would need to do is to look at the state of it - the back is jammers with business related stuff and the passenger seat is burried under piles and piles of business related paper and small bits and bobs. 

Plus, if you have a small child, a two-seater is useless for social and pleasurable purposes. The only 'private' purpose it can possibly serve is running a minor errand.


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