# Doctors practice closing down - wants €300 for our medical file



## noproblem (2 Jan 2019)

Have just been contacted by my GP who tells my wife and myself that due to a personal decision she is closing her practice at the end of March 2019. If we would like our medical files we can have same by paying a fee of €300-00. I have since found out she has serious medical issues.  Thankfully my wife has always kept records and has copies of every medical concern/report over the past no of years that might have any concern. for us. My question is if this is the norm and what might happen if she became very ill and passed away before people got around to getting their medical records?


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## Slim (2 Jan 2019)

Firstly, you are entitled to your medical records for free under the GDPR. If you are a medical card holder, you can also seek them for free under Freedom of Information legislation. If the GP holds a GMS contract, she is obliged to arrange handover of records to another GP.


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## noproblem (2 Jan 2019)

Yes, but can she charge that fee for doing so?


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## dub_nerd (3 Jan 2019)

There was an item on the radio just tonight about one of the cervical smear test scandals. They replayed an interview with an affected journalist who has since passed away, in which she was emphatic that _you own your own medical records_. Nobody is allowed to withhold them from you, and the idea of charging a substantial fee sounds highly dubious imho.


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Jan 2019)

I switched doctors last year and I presume the former doctor sent on my file to my new doctor. 

Come to think of it, he might not have done. 

Some charge is probably reasonable if one chooses to switch doctor.  But probably not unreasonable if a practice closes. Having said that I presume that the old doctor would have to make copies of what is a very large file. 

Brendan


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## Leo (3 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> Yes, but can she charge that fee for doing so?



No, the introduction of [broken link removed] legislation removed the option to charge a fee for processing such requests with the exception of cases where gathering the requested data involved significant administrative overhead. 

See here for advice given to the medical profession, older guidance (p27) predating GDPR indicated they could charge up to the previously standard max €6.35 processing fee for such data requests. 

€300 is a ludicrous amount for someone who was well paid for their service.


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## Buddyboy (3 Jan 2019)

And presumably there isn't a "significant administrative overhead" as they have no reason to take and keep a copy of your file/records after she has transferred them.


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## Leo (3 Jan 2019)

Buddyboy said:


> And presumably there isn't a "significant administrative overhead" as they have no reason to take and keep a copy of your file/records after she has transferred them.



No, the case for significant overhead would not apply here, it's more to cover large organisations that might store data in multiple locations & formats. A doctor's surgery should maintain all data on a patient in a single folder, or within a software package.


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## elcato (3 Jan 2019)

Leo said:


> A doctor's surgery should maintain all data on a patient in a single folder, or within a software package.


I know some people here where that clearly would not be the case


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## noproblem (3 Jan 2019)

I'll let you know the outcome of this in due course. Thanks for feedback.


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## DirectDevil (8 Jan 2019)

We had the experience a few years ago where our GP died and the practice was closed down i.e. nobody new continued it.
We were offered the option of transferring our charts to a new GP of our nomination.
We subsequently realised that what was transferred was not the entirety of our charts.
Therefore, we had to reconstruct elements of the charts by getting copies of reports from consultants and the like - it was a proper pain.

In short, if you can get physical possession of your *entire* chart from the practice that is the very best option to save a load of trouble.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jan 2019)

Buddyboy said:


> they have no reason to take and keep a copy of your file/records after she has transferred them.



They would have a very good reason to keep the originals - this very litigious society. A new doctor reviews the files and says "I wouldn't have done that...". 

Brendan


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## noproblem (8 Jan 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> They would have a very good reason to keep the originals - this very litigious society. A new doctor reviews the files and says "I wouldn't have done that...".
> 
> Brendan



Keeping the originals will hardly help the Dr though, unless of course they "add" to them if needs be?


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jan 2019)

Of course it will help the doctor. 

Let's say I claim that I told the doctor about a pain my back and the doctor dismissed it.  If the doctor has the file, she can say that she listed out the various possible causes and told me to come back to her in a week if it had not improved. That she gave me the option of an x-ray to rule out anything serious but I rejected that because I was afraid of technology. 

Brendan


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## elcato (8 Jan 2019)

lads, does it really matter to most normal folk ? I have been to numerous different doctors all my life and anytime I go I try and remember any relevant information which may help the doc diagnose what's wrong. Brendan's post above gives the impression that we all need to call our lawyers if you go to the doctor now and they didn't diagnose something which may or may not have contributed to your current problem but someone is to blame.


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## Brendan Burgess (8 Jan 2019)

elcato said:


> Brendan's post above gives the impression that we all need to call our lawyers if you go to the doctor now and they didn't diagnose something



Hi Elcato 

No, but some will call their lawyers to try to blame their doctor which is why the doctor needs to keep the files.

Brendan


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## noproblem (8 Jan 2019)

Yes I see your point, people will sue for damp toilet paper now in a pub toilet (I kid you not) but I've still not got a definite factual answer to my original query. Is a Dr allowed to charge a patient €300 for their files and is it the norm?  I'd have thought they charge enough for their few minutes visit to have this well covered through a lifetime of patients visits.


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## Sunny (9 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> Yes I see your point, people will sue for damp toilet paper now in a pub toilet (I kid you not) but I've still not got a definite factual answer to my original query. Is a Dr allowed to charge a patient €300 for their files and is it the norm?  I'd have thought they charge enough for their few minutes visit to have this well covered through a lifetime of patients visits.



The short answer is no. You can either join a new GP and ask them to contact your current GP and ask for the medical records. She won't dare ask for €300. Your other option is to make a request under Data Protection legislation. She is obliged to provide you with the records but can charge a small fee (under €10 I think). If you are a medical card patient, you can also make a request under the Freedom of Information legislation.

Are you sure the €300 is accurate and not just a mis-type?? She is basically holding your records to ransom and could find herself in serious trouble.


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## culabula (9 Jan 2019)

My mum was a doctor who ran her own practice for several years in the 1970s and 80s. She was obliged under the terms of her insurance to keep all paper records for a specified number of years (think it was 20?) against potential claims, even long after her retirement. Our garage was full of box upon box of moth eaten paper files for quite some time. 

Along with a human skeleton she had used at university. Gave me quite a fright when I was looking for my teenage record collection, opened up a box and saw him staring up at me...


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## Leo (9 Jan 2019)

noproblem said:


> I've still not got a definite factual answer to my original query. Is a Dr allowed to charge a patient €300 for their files and is it the norm?





Leo said:


> No, the introduction of [broken link removed] legislation removed the option to charge a fee for processing such requests with the exception of cases where gathering the requested data involved significant administrative overhead.
> 
> See here for advice given to the medical profession, older guidance (p27) predating GDPR indicated they could charge up to the previously standard max €6.35 processing fee for such data requests.
> 
> €300 is a ludicrous amount for someone who was well paid for their service.


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## noproblem (9 Jan 2019)

Thanks Leo and others, I know your post says they're not entitled to charge for the service but it also gives them a type of get out clause in allowing to charge for significant overheads. Whatever, i've booked to meet her this afternoon and will have my facts with me, although I don't want to get confrontational with an unwell person who has seen me through tough times and good times. Then again she's been well paid over the years. I don't mind paying €10/20 for them but the €300 is not only excessive it actually hurt my wife and I as we have great respect for the Dr and never expected a charge like this at the end of her days practicing. I'll wait and see.


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## Sunny (9 Jan 2019)

You don't have to be confrontational but remember the records belong to you. The legislation is 100% on your side and sick or not, she doesn't have the legal or the ethical right to charge 300 euro for your records. I still think it must be some sort of mis-understanding...


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## Leo (9 Jan 2019)

The significant overheads argument won't hold up in a single office environment, they're just to cover the likes of multi-nationals who have distributed record-keeping systems where extensive time will be required to pull the data together.


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## Marsha25 (9 Jan 2019)

At a push it will be just over €6 per file.  Don't offer anything above that.  I have received gp files, hospital files from 2 separate hospitals I have attended and have only paid €10 to the gp receptionist, which I now realise was an overcharge due to a new staff member.  Do not let this woman fob you off.


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## Leo (9 Jan 2019)

Marsha25 said:


> At a push it will be just over €6 per file.



Again, for the majority of data protection requests, it is no longer permissible to charge a fee.


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## noproblem (9 Jan 2019)

Mission sort of accomplished. The Dr was not available today as she herself had an appointment and I would be seen by a locum if that suited, this was declined. I explained our problem to the secretary and found we were not the first patients to do so. The practice was just following protocol in the profession was the response, but they were exercising discretion in some cases and, lordy lordy, I am now one of those cases. "Who was my new Dr"  I was asked  and given some time all my files/records will be transferred/forwarded to same. Charge for same? Zero, and an apology if it caused any distress. I was going to say a few words, etc, but have learned over the years that a win is a win and saying anything to a secretary was not the right way to go in any case. Asked how the Dr was and forgetfulness, alzheimer's, etc, is part of her diagnosis. I wish her well.


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## huskerdu (9 Jan 2019)

Interesting. 

I would agree with you that there is nothing to be gained from saying anything to admin staff in these circumstances, but someone in authority in the practice made this decision and some patients may have paid without realising that they didn't have to and that's really unfair. 

As for "following protocol in the profession", that is rubbish. I would be inclined to write to the Medical Council to state that this protocol , if it exists is illegal and unfair and ask if the Medical Council think that it should be acceptable.


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## noproblem (9 Jan 2019)

huskerdu,
I do understand what you're saying but she has enough problems.  Lots of professions have this understanding that you go with the flow regarding charges like this, etc. No, i've no intention of reporting this Dr or her practice even though i've no doubt there's people who paid up. Changes are happening where once customers never queried costs, might be slow in getting there but as people get confidence they'll question everything, as they should and the professions, etc, are becoming very aware of this. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Thanks again to people who helped me with good advice and data. I'm finished commenting on it now but hope it has made people aware.


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