# 'Discretionary' service charge in restaurants



## bogwarrior

I've been to a few restaurants recently and have seen the following on the menu 'your bill will include a discretionary 10% service charge'. A lot of places do this if you're dining with a large group, but recently i've noticed it applying when you're dining as a couple.

Is this considered to be a tip though? I assume it is and never bother leaving a tip afterwards (for me, tipping is purely optional - with 10% my upper limit for outstanding service). Does anyone know if the staff get this 'discretionary service charge' or does the restaurant owner just pocket it?


----------



## ClubMan

I think you need to ask to know for sure if the service charge goes directly to the staff. Strictly if it's discretionary then you can refuse to pay it.


----------



## CCOVICH

I have to say I don't think I have ever seen the word 'discretionary' mentioned when the 10% is stated on the menu-which restaurants/where have you seen it?


----------



## nt00deep

I don't pay tip/service-charge as part of the bill when paying by credit card.  I give cash to the waiter/waitress.  If (s)he decides to pool it afterwards, it is their choice.


----------



## Sherman

I have to say the expectation of service staff in Dublin/Ireland that they are automatically entitled to a tip of _at least _10% really annoys me - not that I bother paying it if not satisfied with the service.

Tipping originated in the US as a means of a) rewarding exceptional service, and b) supplementing the very meagre earnings of wait staff. With our generous minimum wage, wait staff here do not need to supplement their earnings by means of a (what is fast becoming a socially mandatory) tip, for often incredibly shoddy service.


----------



## bogwarrior

I've come across it a few times in the UK - Scotland in particular.
I'm also pretty sure the I saw it in l'Ecrvian in Dublin last year - there was a service charge, I can't be 100% sure if it stated 'discretionary'.

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1083792003

like some previous posters , I also like to tip with cash and not with my credit card.  And that is if I tip at all, it all depends on the service.


----------



## Amygdala

I have noticed that 10% service charge varies with table size, some restaurants stating for parties of >6 and others >8. I wonder if this is will be abused by not actually charging the customers and at the end of the trading day deducting 10% of their sales registered?


----------



## secondtime

I'm never confident that the waiting staff get the tip if it's paid on the credit card, so I never pay it there either.  I also think that restaurants have a cheek adding the service charge. I mean that is the point of going to a restaurant to eat - that the meal is served up to you!!!  I give a tip when I feel that the service was good and not just the least you'd expect


----------



## Sol28

Cafe Rouge (UK Branches not sure aboutthe ex-dublin one - I never went to the chain again) had it on their receipt - After payment of a bill for 2 coffees/cakes and having the money ready to pay what i expected it to be. I went up - they charged me more at the till and as I walked away inspecting the recipt i noticed the words "A 10% discretionary service charge _has_ been included in your bill". 

I felt like going back and asking for it back. But didn't and never went near the chain again.

I dont believe you should be rewarded *extra* for doing your job. I believe in rewarding those that have done *extra* over their job (efficient/pleasant service)


----------



## ClubMan

Sol28 said:
			
		

> I felt like going back and asking for it back. But didn't


Whyever not!?


----------



## Amygdala

With regard to tipping on cc, the standard practice for the waiter to go back to the cc machine and reenter card number and transaction number. From this point they can then re-enter the new amount, place the reciept in the till and remove the cash as a tip. I am not sure if this will inspire confidence, but most floor staff should be aware of this.
I also agree that tipping should not be automatic (and I have worked as both waiter and barman during college years).


----------



## secondtime

Hi Amygdala,  do you mean that the cc transaction can be altered without a new signature or the cc owner re-entering their PIN??? I really hope that's not the case, or I will become a totally cash person


----------



## Amygdala

Yes,defintely without a new signature. Every cc machine has this function. To access the "tipping out" function you need to known a merchant pin no., cc no. and transaction no. The latter two are on the receipt. I am not sure about chip and pin, but I do not see why not, as this is usually done when then establishment is closing up, which means even if the customer is diligent enough to keep their cc receipt, it will not be the correct one.


----------



## Sol28

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Whyever not!?


 
It was two coffee's and two muffins - the 10% service charge was something like 90 pence. I thought the hassle wasnt worth it and overall they lost my business. If it had been dinner I would have been demanded it back. Sometimes its not worth fighting the little battles but look towards the war!


----------



## Sunnyboy

Sol28 said:
			
		

> Cafe Rouge (UK Branches not sure aboutthe ex-dublin one - I never went to the chain again) had it on their receipt - After payment of a bill for 2 coffees/cakes and having the money ready to pay what i expected it to be. I went up - they charged me more at the till and as I walked away inspecting the recipt i noticed the words "A 10% discretionary service charge _has_ been included in your bill".


 
I would be on to the ODCA like a shot. It shouldn't be up to look for your money back.  they  displayed a price and then charged you more.  They should be prosecuted for theft. 

Have a look at the attached. 


[broken link removed]



*Restaurants* 
The Retail Prices (Food in Catering Establishments) Display Order, 1984 requires every person who sells by retail, food intended for consumption on the premises, to display a comprehensive price list in the manner specified in the order. 
*What Prices must be displayed?* 

The price charged for each food on sale at the premises, which is covered by the Order, must be displayed.
Where there is a range of certain foods on sale, only the highest and lowest prices charged need be displayed. The foods in question are: Soups, ice creams, cakes, pastry, sandwiches or sandwich rolls or similar foods made mainly from flour, carbonated or aerated waters, whether coloured or not and whether flavoured or not, or fruit juices or similar beverages (Article 3(3)).
Where different prices are charged at different times or days, these different prices must be specified, together with the items to which they relate.
*What about Charges ?* 
If there is a; 

minimum charge,
a service charge*,
a cover charge,
a charge for entertainment or
any similar charge, the amount of such charge must be specified, and what the charge relates to must be indicated. * If the service charge is included in the price of the food, the fact that it is included must be indicated.


----------



## CCOVICH

Sunnyboy said:
			
		

> I would be on to the ODCA like a shot. It shouldn't be up to look for your money back. they displayed a price and then charged you more. They should be prosecuted for theft.


The incident occured in the UK, as did those which prompted the OP to post, so the ODCA isn't going to have any interest.


----------



## dam099

Amygdala said:
			
		

> Yes,defintely without a new signature. Every cc machine has this function. To access the "tipping out" function you need to known a merchant pin no., cc no. and transaction no.


 
I don't see why a new signature would be needed anyway. Normally when you pay a tip by credit card isn't there a space to write the tip on the receipt and sign it? Surely going back into the system afterwards to change the transaction is just matching up the amount in the system with what has been signed for as the customer has already manually amended the orginally printed receipt to include the tip they want to leave.


----------



## Marion

I know that in Milano Galway that the staff can take the tip if it is given via credit card - because I asked if they actually received it.

Marion


----------



## orka

Lemongrass in Howth is the same - the guy I asked told me that the computer tots up what should have been paid for menu items etc. and any balance is shared among the staff as tips which seems fair to me. I don't mind a service charge being added on as I would tip anyway but what really bugs me is when a service charge is added on but the cc signature slip still leaves the 'gratuity' line blank as if thy expect more.  I was in a restaurant (unsurprisingly not in Ireland) recently where the server had already written 'included' in the blank gratuity space before giving it to me - v v unusual - I almost left more in cash I was so surprised!


----------



## HelloJed

Yes, that's my experience too - I always assumed that the waiting staff did not get the tip when added to my credit card bill, but a waitress friend recently informed me that she can "cash out" this tip later.

But just to be sure - I always ask the waiting staff.


----------



## Winnie

I remember hearing about a case taken to the European Court whereby it was determind that legally a tip given on credit card did not have to be given to staff (or mayb i imagined that?)  In reality I expect that there are some places where staff do get tips & some where management take them.  It would be worth asking staff if they get the tips perhaps.
I understood that the automatic service charge on the bill was discretionary - ie. if you do not think the service was good you can refuse to pay it. 
Obviously though it is more awkward to ask someone to take something off the bill than it is to just not leave a tip in the first place.
Personally I have no problem asking for a service charge to be taken off but I know many people who get embarrassed if I do such a thing......

In Itsa4 in Sandymount they don't let you give tip on cc - they state that all tips go to staff and that they don't want people to feel awkward giving tip on cc etc etc.
Personally I think adding a service charge is nonsence - as someone early said ...that is part of why you are in the restaurant.
If service is bad I do not leave a tip - I have seen so many people give out about the service & then leave a tip.....like hello!  What incentive do the staff have then to give you good service if they get tips regardless!
If service is very good then yes I do leave a tip & I don't have a problem with that.

It seems though that tipping is not just confined to restaurants anymore - taxis/hairdressers etc.......when will it end.  I remember one taxi driver in London asking me if I wanted my change & he got into a huff when I replied that yes I did want it & he asked did I not want to leave a tip.....!!


----------



## hanorac

We got charged 10% in our local chinese, it wasn't mentioned on their menus so we didn't pay it so out of principle i wasn't paying.


----------



## Havana

Was  in Condotti on the Quays last weeks. The back of the menu said an 'optional' 10% was added to bills for parties of 6 or more. It also pointed out that this goes directly to staff.


----------



## ragazza

The 'discretionary' service charge really annoys me too.

A while ago, my family (8 adults) went for dinner to Eden. The bill came to 400E, and they gave themselves 40E service charge tip! I think that's scandalous - service would want to be really exceptional to warrant 40E!!

If I were paying I would have asked to have it removed from the bill, and tip the amount I felt they deserved, but my dad was paying, so I couldnt interfere. (He didnt want to query it, since it was a special ocasion and he didnt want to cause hassle for his guests).

Also I went to the spa in Powerscourt, and without mentioning it to me, they gave themselves 18E tip on my bill!! Luckily I noticed and queried it, and got it removed from the bill.
I feel sorry for people who are in a rush or hassled or not used to paying bills, who might not notice these things.


----------



## CCOVICH

Note that not all 10% service charges are discretionary.  Most places clearly state that 'for parties of 6 or over a 10% service charge will be added to the bill' on the menu.  I don't see any element of discretion there.


----------



## liteweight

It seems from this thread that restaurants are beginning to behave in the same manner as other institutions who say 'tick the box if you do not wish other material to be sent to you'. Forget to tick the box and you're inundated with junk mail.

I think it's a bit rich that a so called discretionary fee is already added on, leaving the onus on the consumer to have it removed.


----------



## jdwex

ragazza said:
			
		

> The 'discretionary' service charge really annoys me too.
> 
> A while ago, my family (8 adults) went for dinner to Eden. The bill came to 400E, and they gave themselves 40E service charge tip! I think that's scandalous - service would want to be really exceptional to warrant 40E!!
> 
> .


Actually I hate service charges, but anything less than a 40 euro tip for this table of 8 is a bit scabby!


----------



## ragazza

Jdwex - I dont think it's scabby to not want to pay 40E tip! That amount could buy a whole other dinner. As I said, service would want to be exceptional to deserve that, in my opinion. It should be down to the customer to decide what they want to pay, rather than the restaurant generously deciding for themselves.


----------



## cork

Nobody likes to make a fuss after a meal - but it is warranted if levys are added to a bill.

It customers kicked up a fuss - such practices would end.


----------



## macnas

Vat is added to a bill in a restaurant. The rate is very high 22% (?) If a tip is added to your bill is the total then used to calculate the vat? If you buy drinks at the bar and these are added to your bill then you will pay the extra 22% vat for these alos. Does this happen?


----------



## liteweight

I would have thought that bills from most restaurants were vat inclusive. If not they should state it on their menu. If this is the case, then, yes the tip is calculated on the vat. Never thought of that one.


----------



## Seagull

ragazza said:
			
		

> Jdwex - I dont think it's scabby to not want to pay 40E tip! That amount could buy a whole other dinner. As I said, service would want to be exceptional to deserve that, in my opinion. It should be down to the customer to decide what they want to pay, rather than the restaurant generously deciding for themselves.


Would you be happy to pay €10 on a bill of €100 for two of you eating out? There's the same amount of work for the staff in serving your table of 8 as there would be for 4 tables of 2.


----------



## jem

Seagull said:
			
		

> Would you be happy to pay €10 on a bill of €100 for two of you eating out? There's the same amount of work for the staff in serving your table of 8 as there would be for 4 tables of 2.


no i would not leave a tip of €10 for a table of 2 or indeed 8.
When I go out for a meal i am paying as part of the price of the meal the cost of selling me the goods (meal) and then supplying me with these goods (geting the food from the kitchen to my table)
its like buying a new car, the salesman asks what u want ,and supplies it ofr you, you dont agree to pay 15k for your car and then find service charge for salesman 1500 added to the cost.
If the service is good I may leave a few quid under the plate but it wouldn't be 10%.


----------



## Seagull

Are there any restaurants you eat in regularly? If so, you might notice that you're not getting the best possible service at them. Word gets around the staff as to who among the regulars are good and bad tippers, and the service varies accordingly.


----------



## jem

No. I do leave some money when I get great service otherwise why should I pay double for average service?


----------



## jdwex

As I said I disagree with service charges, but generally tip about 10 to 15 %.
That said I can see why restaurants add SC to large tables. I have seen obnoxious tables run staff ragged and then stiff them.


----------



## 1stepatatime

i work in the restuarant business, and although i dont receive tips, on the bottom of our menus it states that service charge is at your disccretion...but a lot of people do tip even if service is terrible, i think its important to remember that the waiting staff rely on their tips as they are only paid minnimum wage


----------



## Sol28

1stepatatime said:


> i work in the restuarant business, and although i dont receive tips, on the bottom of our menus it states that service charge is at your disccretion...but a lot of people do tip even if service is terrible, i think its important to remember that the waiting staff rely on their tips as they are only paid minnimum wage


 
Do you not think that if tipping wasnt standard practice then the restaurant would have to pay a decent wage to keep their staff. 

I hear this comment wheeled out all the time by people in that industry. I know I wouldn't work in a place where I rely on people's goodwill. Very few people get tips for doing their job, I never have nor received bonuses. I work for my wage - and thats all i get. I dont want sympathy for that.

I have said before - I will happily tip where the Staff are going above and beyond their role - not for grumpy staff plopping a plate down in front of me.


----------



## gauloise

1stepatatime said:


> i work in the restuarant business, and although i dont receive tips, on the bottom of our menus it states that service charge is at your disccretion...but a lot of people do tip even if service is terrible, i think its important to remember that the waiting staff rely on their tips as they are only paid minnimum wage


 

There are many other jobs where the minimum wage is paid and tipping is not practiced. Many years ago when waitressing in Paris tips were seen as a bonus and went straight into your pocket but were never expected and certainly I never relied on them. Today I will tip a good waiter/waitress according to service given and will not pay the discretionary service charge and have had to openly argue with a restaurant owner to have this removed.


----------



## Sherman

1stepatatime said:


> i think its important to remember that the waiting staff rely on their tips as they are only paid minnimum wage


 
As stated by gauloise, I really take exception to this weak argument. Many, many other jobs pay minimum wage, and yet the people who work in them have no hope nor expectation of getting generous, and usually tax-free, tips.

As Jem stated, why on earth should I pay double for service, out of fear caused by a veiled threat that I might not get the service for which I am entitled as a paying customer the next time I happen to visit their establishment?

Other service providers don't get tips - when was the last time you tipped your doctor, your solicitor, your plumber, the bus driver etc - I similarly disagree with tipping hairdressers and taxi drivers.

IMHO it is unacceptable to expect a tip other than for exceptional service - prompt, polite, and attentive service is their job - why should they get paid twice for it?!

Oh, and vis the point about not getting great service if you are a regular in a place and don't tip - a) service by and large in Ireland is dreadful even with tips being lashed about the place and b) I wouldn't go back to a place if they gave bad service even once.


----------



## 1stepatatime

i totally agree with you, tipping is up to the individual person but i have noticed again and again people who have a right to complain about terrible service leave 20 euros to the waiting staff


----------



## Mumha

Sol28 said:


> Do you not think that if tipping wasnt standard practice then the restaurant would have to pay a decent wage to keep their staff.


 
Very very good point. I tend to give the 10% and I get killed by an American friend of mine (which is funny really as they can give 15-20% in the US).


----------



## Sherman

Mumha said:


> Very very good point. I tend to give the 10% and I get killed by an American friend of mine (which is funny really as they can give 15-20% in the US).


 
No, it's not. Restaurant workers in Ireland are protected by the exact same minimum wage legislation as every other kind of worker.

Why should they be treated any differently than anyone else in the workforce?


----------



## Carol1963

oh please trust me on this one!  I am a Waitress part time and on New Year our restaurant did a big meal for £45 per head PLUS 10% service charge.  Did us waitresses and waiters see a penny of it???  No ....straight in the restaurant owner's pockets so anybody out there going to eat out for a meal DONT add the 10% on ....deduct it and leave it IN CASH on the table ....then it will go to the waiting staff otherwise it goes nowhere.  So we worked 9 hours New Years Eve on MINIMUM WAGE running around after drunken people for not much!


----------



## CCOVICH

Carol1963 said:


> I am a Waitress part time and on New Year our restaurant did a big meal for £45 per head PLUS 10% service charge. Did us waitresses and waiters see a penny of it??? No ....straight in the restaurant owner's pockets


 
Hi Carol

Did the staff raise this with management?  Is there any chance that there is a Xmas bonus forthcoming?  Just curious.


----------



## tiger

A couple of points;At least some states in the US have 2 different minimum wages, for "service" and "non-service" jobs, hence the "need" for 15% tips.  We have a single minimum wage.I find people's attitude to tipping often depends on whether they themselves have ever worked in a service job in the past.


----------



## HotdogsFolks

1stepatatime said:
			
		

> i think its important to remember that the waiting staff rely on their tips as they are only paid minnimum wage


 


Carol1963 said:


> So we worked 9 hours New Years Eve on MINIMUM WAGE running around after drunken people for not much!


 
I know people believe what they see on TV (example: man gets arrested and asks for the phone call he's entitled to) so Waiters feel they are entitled to tips, and oh-my-god-we-earn-terrible-money, but hey, time to join the real world: lots of people earn terrible money, you are choosing to work in your terrible money job, and no one owes you anything nor are you entitled to get tips.

Waiters who feel they deserve tips are living in Hollywood fantasy land.


----------



## Carol1963

No we have no Xmas bonus but I am going to take it up with the manager this evening when I go into work and as for the "dont expect tips" quote from that kind sensitive soul.............obviously never worked in service....of course we expect tips....we bend over backwards to look after and smile at annoying, picky, customers!  Yeah its a rubbish job!  But I do it and smile through adversity and it gets you nowhere!  Yet the person behind the bar gets all the tips for just serving drinks....so how is that fair?


----------



## ClubMan

Carol1963 said:


> we bend over backwards to look after and smile at annoying, picky, customers!  Yeah its a rubbish job!  But I do it and smile through adversity and it gets you nowhere!


Well, if that's your attitude to your work and customers then you probably should be in a different job. I disagree fundamentally with the earlier poster who asserted that some people don't have choices. In an economy where demand for labour largely outstrips supply this is patently not true.


----------



## Bob_tg

The best rip-off is the Mongolian BBQ where they add on 10% service charge BUT you actually go up and do all the food prep and serving yourself!!


----------



## santiago

There's an article in today's Indo *"**Tip my staff more and I'll cut drink prices, says publican"* (free registration required) where Louis Fitzgerald (Stag's Head, Kehoe's, Grand Central, Quays) says he'll reduce his prices by 20% if there was a switch to a tip-based system in bars. 


> Louis Fitzgerald, who owns a string of high-profile pubs in Dublin and elsewhere, said he believed it was only a matter of time before tips, coupled with a small wage, became an accepted way of paying bar staff. He admitted his group would reduce its wage bill under a tipping-based payment system but said this would be matched by a reduction drink prices. The customer might pay "a bit more" overall.
> "If there was a serious tipping culture, and bar staff were to accept the tips and the wages, I would gladly take 20pc off the price of a pint."


 Mandate weren't in favour...


----------



## fobs

Woudn't be in favour of this myself as hate the way the tipping culture is in America where you have to tip for everything. Prefer to pay the price of the drink as advertised and let the bar owner pay his/her own staff.


----------



## jem

fobs said:


> Woudn't be in favour of this myself as hate the way the tipping culture is in America where you have to tip for everything. Prefer to pay the price of the drink as advertised and let the bar owner pay his/her own staff.


I agree.
J


----------



## lynncornwall

I have been reading this thread with interest as I have worked in catering for many years and now own a restaurant. I googled this topic because nearly all my competitors are now making this charge. When I have worked at places with this policy, the staff were told the charge formed part of the wages. I know a place where the staff are paid £2 per hour above minimum wage no extra is paid regardless of how many people come in and pay the charge.
At our place we have never added a service charge, or used a credit card machine that leaves space for tips. We believe that if you are not happy with the service you should not leave a tip, but if you are happy then a tip is greatly appreciated, it really does mean a lot to the staff, it's not just the money, it is a sign of appreciation. I worked for the government for 9 years on much better money, now I earn less than £2 per hour plus tips, but find running a restaurant far more rewarding, because of the instant feedback.
A couple of points, money left on a credit card as a tip should go through the payroll and be taxed. 
I think restaurants are adding service charges, to keep meal prices down, by charging for vegetables/ chips and service separately, the headline price looks cheaper and after all , that is what most of us want, a good deal and not pay much for it.


----------



## fobs

I wonder have people's attitudes changed from when this thread was first written in the "tiger era". I have found both the service levels and the available value to have improved in the recession and there are great deals to be had in eating out now.

If the pub business lowered their prices to the same degree as the restaurant sector has I believe they would see greater numbers coming back. My local eaterie in a small town is always booked out even in jan/feb as it offers good value,good food and great service.


----------



## tick tock

Tips should be earned not expected..


----------



## bond-007

Agreed.

I would not tip unless I got exceptional service and I mean exceptional service.


----------



## runner

There is an increasing trend generally now to offer special good priced - say 3 course dinner menus, but with the caveat that they are adding on a 10 -12.5% service charge to claw back the reduction in prices. Have experienced this recently in a couple of places.


----------



## Joey99

If a charge was described as "discretionary" in that way I'd nearly feel duty-bound to exercise my discretion and not pay it! (though I'm almost always happy to tip 5-15% of the bill and, like many others above, prefer to do so in cash wherever possible).

If it is the restaurateur on the make, it seems only right to try and redirect the money into the pockets of the frontline staff who have helped you to have an enjoyable meal.


----------



## ludo

*discretionary service charge in restaurant*

I have been in catering for 15 years in London, out of 10% of service charge 40% goes to the head office, 45% goes to the manager and head chef and whatever is left is shared among the staff. Service charge should be banned because most of the smallest restaurant do not share the service charge at all but rather keep it for themselves. Dated back years ago most of the large companies were paying their staff with the tips left on the credit cards meaning they were having the staff for free...Please remember that you have the choice to ask for a bill with or without the service charge....my opinion don't pay the service charge.


----------

