# What Counts As An Electrical Point?



## Rashers (22 Jul 2016)

Hi all, going through a small extension at the moment and operating under deep suspicion of the builder. And why wouldn't I? They have developed a bad habit of randomly stating work is needed doing and trying to bill me for it it with neither instruction or authorisation from me at all.

The latest is a billing item for 36 electrical points when only 20 were agreed at the start of the extension.

I was onto the ETCI who put me onto Safe Electric Ireland who were incredibly poor on the phone (I use that term to be kind and polite...) and left me no wiser.

What is the industry and regulatory accepted definition of an electrical point? 

Does a double socket count as one or two? Does a light and switch count as one or two? Etc etc

Just trying to keep my wits about me and not get rinsed.


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## Leo (22 Jul 2016)

No one specifies X random points in a build. The number and location of each of the lights, sockets (single, double, etc.), switches, etc. should all be specified, and a price should have been agreed in advance with that level of detail.

A double socket would be considered a single point, a light and switch would be two points.


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## Rashers (22 Jul 2016)

Leo said:


> No one specifies X random points in a build. The number and location of each of the lights, sockets (single, double, etc.), switches, etc. should all be specified, and a price should have been agreed in advance with that level of detail.
> 
> A double socket would be considered a single point, a light and switch would be two points.



Thanks for that. We live and learn. You'd be surprised what people do on a build.

Is there somewhere that officially points to this? Like at a regulatory level?


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## T McGibney (22 Jul 2016)

I wouldn't skimp on electrical points. More than likely, you'll end up sometime needing far more than you would ever expect now. And in the scheme of things their cost is negligible.


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## Rashers (22 Jul 2016)

I agree alright, its not about me  scrimping and more about another 2100 jacked onto a bill of quantities out of no where. 

So is it down in regulations somewhere what constitutes an electrical point?


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## Leo (22 Jul 2016)

No, there's no regulatory definitions along these lines, just common nomenclature used across the industry. Whoever is specifying the details of your design and agreeing terms with the builder is responsible for working these details out in advance.

It sounds like you took this role on yourself for this one, so a lack of experience in this area may be hurting you now. You mention 20 points were agreed at the start, was there any more details agreed such as what those points were and the price for that work?


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## Rashers (22 Jul 2016)

Common nomenclature comes from somewhere, wheter peeps are aware of it or not.

According to the Electro Technical Council of Ireland a double socket counts as one point.   Its in their safety FAQ

So there is some codification of this along the lines somewhere else things would be in chaos, with meaning shifting and changing left right and centre. Sure what's a metre to you might be different to me!

Does anyone know if this is specificed in the National Wiring Rules? A copy of which I can't find online.


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## elcato (22 Jul 2016)

I talked to my builder who was getting a sparks in for me as he outsources the leccy and he mentioned that it was worth waiting on his buddy as an independent guy would charge x per point (I don't recall the actual price but was high enough) so it appears to be a standard of some sorts. The language and tone of how my builder said it to me is why I waited till his man was free.


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## Rashers (22 Jul 2016)

Yeh, well they are trying to bill me for 36 points.

Ive taking photos of all of them and totted them up.

If I use a definition more generous to their costs, ie treat double sockets as a single point and lights and switches as a single point too, I have just 14.

If I use a definition more generous to me, ie treat double sockets as 2 points and lights and switches as 2, then I have just 20. 

As agreed.

Chancers I think.


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## Leo (25 Jul 2016)

How do they justify the 36 points, have you asked for a list of what they consider these points are so you can check this off against? 

Points are generally where they have to strip/connect wires. So a double socket is a point, a light switch is a point, the light that goes with that is another point. Cooker switch is a point, connection to the cooker another point, etc..

What have they done versus what was specified in the contract?


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## mathepac (25 Jul 2016)

What about connections back to the consumer unit/fuse board/distribution panel where they all come together? What about phone-lines, TV cables, network access points?


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## kceire (26 Jul 2016)

Who prepared the drawings for the extension?
Who is supervising the construction and signing off in compliance with Building Regulations?


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## Rashers (26 Jul 2016)

No phone lines or cables or network access points.

He's basically counting double sockets as 2 electrical points which brings the total well up despite the plans.

Bit of a steep learning curve for me here. The extension is just 7m2 with an older part of the house getting refurbished. Rang the council about commencement notice and registration with the BCMS and they told me that because of the size I did not need to go down that route as it didn't need planning permission and that no certificate of compliance was needed on their end. A certificate of compliance is due to be issued by an certifier/engineer arranged by the builder (daft now I realise...) who has visited the site.  I've had a structural engineer out to check things myself as well.

If I was doing it again, I'd do it entirely differently.


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