# Tenant - 1day notice



## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

I sublet the house I live in and one of the people who moved in 2 months ago has told me yesterday that he is leaving. 

Today he told me it will be ASAP i.e. tonight. 

I have his deposit but as he is moving out on such short notice he will leave me with the shortfall of his rent which is due in 3 days. 

I am wondering can I keep his deposit for the rent and bills due?


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## jhegarty (13 May 2009)

What does the lease say on notice ?


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

It is one month notice.


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## Smashbox (13 May 2009)

veron01 said:


> It is one month notice.


 
Does it have any conditions on if the tenant doesnt give one months notice?


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

No.


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## Cayne (13 May 2009)

have you a rental agreement with him, ie a signed tenancy?

You cant hold back money for rent and bills from a security deposit.


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

I never had a signed agreement in place. So basically are you saying to me that he can walk out with his deposit and not pay bills due?


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## Smashbox (13 May 2009)

Tenants are entitled to a refund of the deposit amount paid at the commencement of the tenancy, where there is no rent outstanding and there is no damage to the dwelling beyond normal wear and tear at the end of the tenancy.  Landlords are required to refund the deposit promptly less any deductions in respect of outstanding rent and damage in excess of normal wear and tear.

If the landlord retains a deposit, the tenant must be provided with a written and itemised explanation of the reasons why.  It is important to keep receipts for repairs to damages or items replaced. These will be required if the tenant complains to the PRTB. 

http://www.irishlandlord.com/index.aspx?page=faq&answer=64#answer


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

Ok. He gets his deposit and I cover his rent. Marvellous.


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## dereko1969 (13 May 2009)

if he hasn't got a replacement tenant in place then i would not hand back the deposit, have you identified how much he owes in bills? i think the advice being given is based on you being the landlord but you're not from my reading of your post your name is on the lease and he is sub-letting from you, tell him you can't repay the deposit with such little notice, if he gets someone else in or you manage to get someone else in then he can have his deposit back minus any bills due.


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

I will take a meter reading when he goes for the ESB and Gas. Prob owes approx 50. Yes I am not the landlord, he sub-lets from me.


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## Smashbox (13 May 2009)

veron01 said:


> Ok. He gets his deposit and I cover his rent. Marvellous.


 
You didn't even read what I wrote, did you? Let me highlight it for you.



> Tenants are entitled to a refund of the deposit amount paid at the commencement of the tenancy, *where there is no rent outstanding*


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

Smashbox I'm stressed enough, dont be giving out to me.. 

Our rent is due on the 16th of every month. So he is paid up until then. So does that mean then he is free to leave and not pay his notice period?


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

Just saw this on Citizens Information. Would this be applicable to me?



*Deposits*


As a landlord, you may withhold a deposit (or part of a deposit) only if:

The tenant has not given you proper notice when leaving
You have been left with outstanding bills (i.e., public utilities) or rent
The tenant has caused damage beyond normal wear and tear.


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## sam h (13 May 2009)

Not sure about how this stands with the PRTB, maybe someone else can enlighten.

Should this sort of tenancy be registered with the PRTB?  
If so, (& I assume it would have to be registered) should it be the OP (as he is sub-letting) or the original tenant be the one to register with the PRTB?

As far as I know he should have given you 28 days notice, but if you are not registered with the PRTB you may find it hard to persue.  

Have you aksed him about serving his notice & paying his bills, is he refusing to or are you just assuming he will refuse.  You should not refund the deposit until you know where you stand - it is not reasonable to expect som eone to be able to get the money in 24hours with no prior notice.


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

He asked me for his deposit back. I dont expect a problem as such re the bills but I am concerned that I now have to pay his rent as he has only given me 1 day to find a replacement.


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## JoeB (13 May 2009)

In this case I wouldn't give him the money... let him chase you for it.

He may accept that he doesn't deserve it and just leave. What else is he going to do, bring you to court? 

You have most of the cards.. because you actually have the money. I wouldn't worry about the legal situation until it gets that far.. then just give him the money if he's entitled to it, otherwise don't bother..

Are you allowed to sub-let in your lease with the main landlord?


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

Yes I have the full permission of the LL to sublet. 

I am waiting for him to ask me again and I am going to explain that if I can get someone in before the 16th to replace him then I will return his deposit but if I cannot get someome in I will have to use it to pay for his rent that would be due.


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## Smashbox (13 May 2009)

veron01 said:


> I am waiting for him to ask me again and I am going to explain that if I can get someone in before the 16th to replace him then I will return his deposit but if I cannot get someome in I will have to use it to pay for his rent that would be due.


 
I think that this would be the best course of action. Tell him that you have sought advice and that this was what you've been told you are within your rights to do. Explain that you are leaving him short both a tenant and rent, and so this money will be used to cover the 28 days rent.

If the deposit was more than a months rent, you will owe this to him though.


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

Thanks Smashbox.


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## Smashbox (13 May 2009)

Good look with it, and don't make me scold you the next time!


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## Speedwell (13 May 2009)

smashbox said:


> :d good look with it, and don't make me scold you the next time!


 
:d


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## Speedwell (20 May 2009)

Tenant has now come back saying that he was on to Threshold and that a months notice is not forceable as there was no written agreement so he is entitled to his deposit back.

How can someone give 2 days notice and leave the main tenant to pick up the rent?


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## JoeB (20 May 2009)

because you didn't have any written agreement in place. 

You have options.. you could deny that you have any money of his at all... he most likely doesn't have a receipt. You could give him half the money back and tell him to go whistle for the rest, deny you have it or ever had it etc etc. 

Did you have a verbal agreement about notice period?, if so then he has broken that.. however if he is now denying the verbal aggreement exists then that it is difficult for you.. unless you also start to lie, as per the above. Honest people can always be taken for a ride by liars. I'd consider lying if he started it.

But in the end you'll probably just have to give the money back to him.. 

Subletting has problems.. what will you do if you cannot get a new tenant? Will you have to move out? Your landlord must be very happy with the arrangement, after all, he probably has himself sorted with a written contract and is guaranteed his rent.


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## Speedwell (21 May 2009)

Well I am not starting to lie anyway. That would just make me as bad as some people I have met a long the way. 

Yes we had a verbal agreement that it would be a months notice. He doesn't seem to be denying this but said that Threshold told him that it is not enforceable as there was no written agreement. I always thought verbal had legal rights too?? It looks like I will have to part with more money now as I have already used his deposit to make up the difference in his rent. 

Sub letting I am beginning to think def has its disadvantages.


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## Havana (21 May 2009)

..


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## JQ2002 (21 May 2009)

Do you think tenant will go through the legal process for the sake of the deposit? say it's 500eur. His legal costs will exceed that. My opinion is that you hold onto and put it against the rent, if u find a tenant in the meantime, you can refund the difference. 

I find it hard to believe that the tenant themself did not know sooner of their change in living arrangements. Might the tenant be pulling a fast one?

I sublet to 2 tenants,i.e me and another are the primary leaseholders. I have a deposit and both subtenants are fully aware of the conditions, i.e notice period etc.


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## JoeB (21 May 2009)

JQ2002 said:


> I sublet to 2 tenants,i.e me and another are the primary leaseholders. I have a deposit and both subtenants are fully aware of the conditions, i.e notice period etc.



Yes, but is your agreement in writing? If not then you may actually have no real agreement, certainly not an enforcable one which makes it pretty worthless.. after all, Veron1 is saying that even though everybody acknowledges that there was a verbal agreement and that that has been broken that he still has no rights, and he must refund the money despite not receiving his notice period.



I think Threshold may give a different opinion if they heard from both parties that there was a verbal agreement which has been broken... but they may not.. it may be all about written agreements. 


As far as sub-letting go what advantages does it have?, ok, in some cases it may be possible to rent a house for 1,300 say, and rent out the three bedrooms for 1,300.. in which case the main tenant could effectively live for free in the fourth bedroom.. that'd be a clear advantage.. but if the main tenant is paying quite a bit towards the rent I don't see the point. There are most definitely some disadvantages.


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## Speedwell (21 May 2009)

Yes Joe that is the only advantage that I can see. I will def write up a written agreement for the next subtenant that comes along. Makes things easier and a lot clearer for all.


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## Speedwell (21 May 2009)

I was going to attach an agreement that I have done up but I am unable to do it. Does anyone know how to?


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## cleverclogs7 (21 May 2009)

i went through simular.i gave 1 months notice,lost deposit.i would tell him to find a replacment in order to get the deposit back.hold deposit to pay outstanding bills.
call threshold 016786096 .they can help you out.But i wouldnt give him the deposit back just yet.


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## cleverclogs7 (21 May 2009)

i hope you registared him with the prtb or you could find youself in hot water.


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## Speedwell (21 May 2009)

Cleverclogs it is the landlords responsibility to register tenants I was told and my landlord is registered. 

I am going to call them as you say and see what they say.


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## Speedwell (21 May 2009)

Anyone any comments on the agreement laid out here?


1. *Date and Parties*
This agreement, dated , 2009, is between ..........., hereafter called Tenant, 
and ............................, hereafter called Subtenant.
2. *Rent*
The Subtenant agrees to pay rent........ totaling for this sublease. This amount should be paid in equal monthly installments of to be paid on or before the day of each month.
3. *Notice Period*
The Subtenant will give 1 months notice to tenant. If notice period is not fulfilled the tenant has the right to use the subtenants deposit to pay for the remainder of rent and any outstanding bills due. 
*4. **Deposit*
The subtenant has the right to return of deposit providing all rent and bills are paid todate and the property / room is returned in the same condition when first moved in. 
5. *Property of Tenant*
The following furniture, appliances, or other items belonging to the Tenant are permitted for use by the Subtenant. Subtenant is expected to return these at the end of the sublease term in essentially the same condition as they were in the beginning, taking into account normal wear and tear. If the Subtenant or his guests are responsible for damages to any or these, or if they are not returned, the tenant has the right to take compensation for such damages from the security deposit, and to take any further legal actions necessary. 
*6. **Signatures *
The following undersigned have agreed to be legally bound by this agreement.


*TENANT(S):*
*SUBTENANT(S):*


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## Smashbox (22 May 2009)

Sounds good.


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## Bronte (25 May 2009)

I wouldn't rely on anything the tenant tells you he was told by Threshold.  Why don't you contact Threshold yourself.  In any case if he's within his rights to the deposit back, you tell him to take a case against you.   If you got someone to replace him immediately then I would give him the deposit back but not otherwise.  I'm not up to speed with subtenants rights but you could also ask the PRTB.  In any case I recommend you don't sublet in future but have the tenant put on the lease with the landlord and that way it's the landlords problem from now on.


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## Complainer (25 May 2009)

veron01 said:


> Anyone any comments on the agreement laid out here?
> 
> 
> 1. *Date and Parties*
> ...


Why not cut out the flowery stuff, i.e. the hereinafter and the undersigned. Keep it simple. Replace 'right of return of deposit' with 'will get the deposit back'  etc.


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## Speedwell (25 May 2009)

Bronte: It is not an option for me not to sublet as this was the understanding I have had with my LL since I moved in and apart from the odd hiccup like this one it was going fine. Thanks for the advise. I am going to phone Threshold in the morning and check this once and for all. 

Complainer: Yes a bit flowery alright. Thanks for the input. Will make it more simple.


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## cleverclogs7 (26 May 2009)

veron01 said:


> Cleverclogs it is the landlords responsibility to register tenants I was told and my landlord is registered.
> 
> I am going to call them as you say and see what they say.


 
sorry i misread,thought you were the landlord.But even so,1 day notice is just not on.under 6months then its 28 days as far as i remember and 6-12 months is42 days notice?  hold off till you talk to threshold or better still ask you LL for advise


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## Speedwell (26 May 2009)

I asked the LL for advise and TBH he wasn't very helpful. I think as it is my problem he handed it back to me to deal with. However, I can understand why as essentially it really has nothing to do with him as I took on this guy, not him and I have his deposit. 

I'd be very surprised if Threshold tell me today that he can get away with 1 days notice even if it was just a verbal agreement.


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## Howitzer (26 May 2009)

veron01 said:


> I asked the LL for advise and TBH he wasn't very helpful. I think as it is my problem he handed it back to me to deal with. However, I can understand why as essentially it really has nothing to do with him as I took on this guy, not him and I have his deposit.
> 
> I'd be very surprised if Threshold tell me today that he can get away with 1 days notice even if it was just a verbal agreement.


Does the tenant have a receipt for the deposit? 

If you've no lease agreement and he's no receipt I don't see how anythings inforceable. 1 days notice is not right - there may be no legal agreement but it's not right. Hold the deposit and the explain the situation clearly and concisely to Threshold, or whoever, contacts you. Don't be bullied by legal mumbo jumbo into giving it back. Make him prove his case if needs be.

The PRTB has no jurisdiction on sublets, in fact I'd be surprised if anyone does. The tenants rights are virtually zero in cases like this. Threshold has no jurisdiction over anything.


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## Speedwell (26 May 2009)

Howitzer said:


> Does the tenant have a receipt for the deposit?
> 
> If you've no lease agreement and he's no receipt I don't see how anythings inforceable. 1 days notice is not right - there may be no legal agreement but it's not right. Hold the deposit and the explain the situation clearly and concisely to Threshold, or whoever, contacts you. Don't be bullied by legal mumbo jumbo into giving it back. Make him prove his case if needs be.
> 
> The PRTB has no jurisdiction on sublets, in fact I'd be surprised if anyone does. The tenants rights are virtually zero in cases like this. Threshold has no jurisdiction over anything.


 
No he has no receipt, nothing to say that he was there at all. My only concern is that as he has the key still and does not seem to be handing it back in a hurry, (suppose as leverage for his deposit) that he may do damage to the house to get his money's worth so to speak. Is it definite that PRTB have no jurisdiction over sublets?


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## sam h (26 May 2009)

There is a box under "details of Tenancy" for subletting, but you've never indicated that you registered the sub let with PRTB.  If you are not registered, I doubt they will give you any hlep (they don't tend to help LL's who are registered!!!).  I'm not even sure if it would down to you or the LL to register.  I hope you get some financial benefit out of arranging the sublet or is the LL using you as an easy touch??


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## round1 (26 May 2009)

When you sublet are you actually acting as a landlord with a landlord's rights and obligations?  By subletting do you mean you took on lease with landlord and then looked for fellow tenants yourself ? Some interesting points here with regard to legal status of subletting.


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## Howitzer (26 May 2009)

1. What is a landlord?



> A landlord is the owner of a
> property who leases or rents it to
> another person. The person who
> rents the property is a tenant. The
> ...


 
[broken link removed]

You're not the Owner, ergo you're not the Landlord.


2. Termination of Tenancy by the Tenant.

IF you were deemed to be the landlord AND the ex-tenant was deemed to be a tenant.



> Valid notice
> 
> 
> A valid notice of termination must:
> ...


 
[broken link removed]

You did not receive a valid period, as such you are out of pocket and can withhold the deposit.


All these points are moot however as the tenant ultimately has no rights under subletting agreements unless explicitly entered into.


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## homeowner (26 May 2009)

veron01 said:


> No he has no receipt, nothing to say that he was there at all. My only concern is that as he has the key still and does not seem to be handing it back in a hurry, (suppose as leverage for his deposit) that he may do damage to the house to get his money's worth so to speak. Is it definite that PRTB have no jurisdiction over sublets?



Does the landlord know you were subletting?  Some rental contracts have "no-subletting" clauses in them.

If landlord is in the loop, can you explain situation to him and ask him to change the locks?

You will need to hold back some deposit to pay for his share of the bills and these wont arrive for another month or two so explain to him that you will send him on the remainder of the deposit once the bills are settled.


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## Speedwell (26 May 2009)

homeowner said:


> Does the landlord know you were subletting? Some rental contracts have "no-subletting" clauses in them.
> 
> If landlord is in the loop, can you explain situation to him and ask him to change the locks?
> 
> You will need to hold back some deposit to pay for his share of the bills and these wont arrive for another month or two so explain to him that you will send him on the remainder of the deposit once the bills are settled.


 
Yes I have full permission from LL. Myself and my ex took on the house initially and the LL told us we can rent to whoever we like so long as he got his rent. LL told me I could keep on the house when ex and I split up. 

It was worked well enough apart from the odd person. 

The original arrangement always stood with LL. He was happy I was looking after the place and I was happy I was there rent free. He lives next door so he knows how well I keep the place and it has suited us both for obvious reasons.


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## Bronte (27 May 2009)

You are paying no rent?  Looks like you are the landlords agent?


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## Speedwell (27 May 2009)

Bronte said:


> You are paying no rent? Looks like you are the landlords agent?


 
Sometimes I pay no rent if there are enough people in the house. Other times I might have to pay it all if I cannot get anyone in. It is my responsibility to have the rent paid each month as I am the original tenant.


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## Speedwell (29 May 2009)

*Update - Tenant - 1day notice*

I just spoke with Threshold and apparently I have no rights whatsover. It still all stems from the LL.

I was told that I have to give back the deposit. In fact, if another person does the same thing and leaves with no notice and pays no bills or rent then I would have to go through the small claims to get money back.

So if I meet unscrupulous people they can do what they like and walk out with no consequences and I face paying their bills and rent. This is disgraceful.


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## JoeB (29 May 2009)

*Re: Update - Tenant - 1day notice*

I don't completely agree. Your tenant also has few rights, if any at all.

Threshold say you have to give back the deposit.. but if you don't will threshold offer any help to your tenant? It doesn't sound like it.  So how exactly are you oblidged to give the deposit back?

I'm not sure you can chase a private individual through the small claims court.. is that not for private individuals to chase companies? So you may not be able to chase sub-tenants through the small claims court.

You end up paying their bills and rent if they walk out because you have an agreement with your landlord. That is completely seperate from your sub-tenancy agreement. If you refuse to return the money to your sub-tenant what can he do?, nothing probably.. other than taking you to court.. (unless of course if Threshold are prepared to act on his behalf, but it's not clear that they would.)

Based on Howitzers post you are not a landlord as you don't own the property.. so it's unclear whether your sub-tenant is in fact a tenant at all.. and if not he may have no rights at all either...

If I were you I wouldn't return the deposit.. well, I would return the deposit minus whatever expenses you are out of pocket due to him not fulfilling his side of the verbal agreement, i.e the lost rent from the notice period., and the bills.


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## Speedwell (29 May 2009)

I'm so annoyed by it all. I have the money for him ready to go but TBH it galls me that I have to hand it over and still pay his rent.

I am not really a confrontational person and he prob knows this but part of me really wants to deduct his rent due.

I don’t want to end up in court over this?!


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## JoeB (29 May 2009)

Yes, then don't give him back the deposit. Tell him he broke the verbal agreement you had and that you are holding back the deposit until you get someone else in.

Ring the PRTB and Threshold yourself and say that you are subletting.. that you only have a verbal agreement with the main tenant, and that you broke the verbal agreement, gave no notice period, and are you still entitled to get your deposit back? If they say 'Yes' then repeat the question.. 'but I broke the verbal agreement and didn't give a notice period, am I still entitled to my full deposit back? If they say 'definitely yes' again then you may have to give it back.. my point is to ring them and pretend to be in his position and see what they say. Stress that you have broken the verbal agreement and that you are a sub-tenant, and that your deposit is not held by the owner of the property, it is held by the main tenant.


Regardless of what they say I'd be prepared to hold back his money.. after all he has broken the verbal agreement, and it's unlikely he will take you to court even if that option is open to him, which it may not be. You have to hold some money back for bills unless you estimate the usage, which is ok as the usage is likely to be less at this time of year, so it benefits you.


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## round1 (29 May 2009)

Strictly speaking, your arrangements are not really subletting as you have not vacated the premises. You should check the PRTB website for the document entitled "Licensees in Private Rented Accomodation" as this seems more relevant to your housing arrangement. You will find it in the link "Residential Tenancies Act and Information" on the right hand side of the homepage. There is reference to deposits in this.


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## Speedwell (30 May 2009)

round1 said:


> Strictly speaking, your arrangements are not really subletting as you have not vacated the premises. You should check the PRTB website for the document entitled "Licensees in Private Rented Accomodation" as this seems more relevant to your housing arrangement. You will find it in the link "Residential Tenancies Act and Information" on the right hand side of the homepage. There is reference to deposits in this.


 
Thank you so much. That has been so helpful. Basically as Howitzer said previously PRTB have no jurisdiction over a licensee and that is exactly what my ex housemate was. 

Here is what the article says re deposits:
"Any money that a licensee pays to the tenant as a deposit is a personal payment to the tenant and is not a deposit with the meaning of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, as that meaning is confined to deposits paid by tenants to landlords."

So I think I am safe enough to keep back some of the money from "deposit/personal payment" for his rent and bills and to know that legally I am doing nothing wrong?


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## Speedwell (2 Jun 2009)

JoeBallantin said:


> Ring the PRTB and Threshold yourself and say that you are subletting.. that you only have a verbal agreement with the main tenant, and that you broke the verbal agreement, gave no notice period, and are you still entitled to get your deposit back? If they say 'Yes' then repeat the question.. 'but I broke the verbal agreement and didn't give a notice period, am I still entitled to my full deposit back? If they say 'definitely yes' again then you may have to give it back.. my point is to ring them and pretend to be in his position and see what they say. Stress that you have broken the verbal agreement and that you are a sub-tenant, and that your deposit is not held by the owner of the property, it is held by the main tenant.


 
Just rang Threshold again and spoke to another girl there. I told her that I was the licensee as you suggested Joe and she told me that regardless of verbal or written I should give the full months notice and the head tenant is in the right to keep rent owed. That the only route is the small claims but as I am not giving the full notice that I would prop not succeed.


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## S.L.F (11 Aug 2009)

Is it possible for you to say this person was under the rent-a-room scheme?


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## Speedwell (11 Aug 2009)

I am not the owner of the house, so rent a room would not apply to me afaik. I got it sorted in the end. As per advise from Threshold I could keep bills and rent due out of deposit, due to him not giving me proper notice.


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