# Neighbour needs our fence moved to get P.P.



## stefg (16 Jan 2015)

Hi all,

Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on the following:

Our neighbour is looking to redevelop their house and the planning office have said their driveway doesn't meet the standards required due to visibility restrictions.  They have asked us to sign a letter for our permission to move a section of our fence and bushes back a few feet as that will overcome the planning issue.  

We have no major objections to fence being moved back as it's a part of the garden that won't have a big impact.  We get on well with the neighbours and have no objections to what they are planning but I'm just wondering if there is anything we need to wary of.  One thing I will be asking is that they agree to cover the cost of the work if / when the fence has to be moved, although I would imagine the neighbour and I could probably do this as we are good at DIY like this.

I have been told that this would just be a planning compliance issue and the fence wouldn't have to be moved unless the house was going to be sold.  However,  we plan to submit planning permission for a garage soon (the exempt permission was already used for an extension by the previous owners), and I imagine that will require us to be compliant before getting planning permission?

Again as I mentioned earlier we have no objections and would like to accommodate the neighbours request but are just wondering if there are other factors we should be aware of?

Thanks,
Stefg


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Jan 2015)

Hi stefg 



stefg said:


> I have been told that this would just be a planning compliance issue and the fence wouldn't have to be moved unless the house was going to be sold.



The planners don't impose such conditions just for fun. They obviously deem it an important safety issue. If you agree to do it, then you should simply do it. And, of course, you should facilitate your neighbours, especially as it is not going to cost you anything.


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## monagt (16 Jan 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi stefg, The planners don't impose such conditions just for fun. They obviously deem it an important safety issue. If you agree to do it, then you should simply do it. And, of course, you should facilitate your neighbours, especially as it is not going to cost you anything.



Is there Land Registry implications which may impact you when you sell as the site boundary has changed (Both site boundaries will have changed) Does this have to be updated on the Title Deeds of both sites (and who holds them, for example, a Building Society, etc., and what are the costs?

Also, a few feet, once a boundary is removed, it becomes very flexible and if there is a dispute, who adjudicates? Will a surveyor be involved who will know exactly where the original boundary is (down to centimetres or millimetres) and be able to set it out exactly where it was if needed?


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Jan 2015)

Hi monagt

There is no suggestion that the boundary is being changed? The hedge is being moved back from the boundary, that is all. 

Brendan


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## monagt (16 Jan 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi monagt There is no suggestion that the boundary is being changed? The hedge is being moved back from the boundary, that is all. Brendan



What delineates the current boundary is the question and is it being materially changed is probably my area of concern.


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## stefg (16 Jan 2015)

Hi monagt,

I don't think there is any change to land registry.  We already have a strip of grass by the road in front of the current fence / hedge so it's just moving the hedge back a couple of feet to give a better light of sight from the neighbours driveway.  As far as I'm aware that has no impact on the land registry but I'm not knowledgeable in this area.

I was thinking along the lines of what you suggested above Brendan, best to just sign it and get it done when the works are going on next door.

Thanks


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## stefg (16 Jan 2015)

monagt said:


> What delineates the current boundary is the question and is it being materially changed is probably my area of concern.



I'm not certain but I think I remember the land registry map showed the boundary as the centre of the road in front of the house.


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Jan 2015)

It's hard to visualise, but if there is any possible vagueness about the boundary, then clarify that beforehand.


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## stefg (16 Jan 2015)

Thanks monagt and Brendan, we will just update the letter of consent to confirm that the change is for the fence and hedge only and there is to be no change to the land registry boundary, I think that should resolve everything.


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## Leo (16 Jan 2015)

Take a look at this previous thread (there are others on the topic of boundaries also). What is set out on the ground will in time become the boundary.

Are they asking you to move the fence hedge on the side of your entrance that adjoins their property, or on the side opposite their property?


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## monagt (16 Jan 2015)

Leo said:


> What is set out on the ground will in time become the boundary.



This is fact, especially as the measurements in Ireland are a tad imprecise and I am not referring to Adverse Possession (squatters rights) which will also come into play. In countries like the USA where precise coordinates are used to set boundaries this is not a problem.

However, we may be complicating the whole scenario. Just look to the future and see how it affects you on the ground, now and in the future and maybe talk to you solicitor.


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## stefg (16 Jan 2015)

I have had a quick look on the landregistry.ie and the boundary does run to the centre of the road.

The houses are beside each other and both our driveways face out onto the road.  Our garden has a strip of grass about 1m wide along the road in front of our hedge and fence.   Our neighbours driveway is perpendicular to the road and is beside the boundary between the houses and ours is an about 5 or 6 metres away from theirs.  It is our hedge and fence facing the road beside their driveway that the neighbours want to have moved for P.P.  As far as I can see this would just make the strip of grass outside the house larger and should have no impact on the boundary as it goes to the middle of the road.  Is that correct?

The reason that visibility is restricted is that there is a very slight bend in the road so the neighbours visibility line is not as far as it is from our driveway.

We will talk to the neighbours this weekend and discuss it a bit further just make sure there is no issue.  We are flexible regarding the move of the fence as it's only a small move, but we would be reluctant if it mean cutting down trees in garden etc but this doesn't apply in this scenario.


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## monagt (16 Jan 2015)

No harm in facilitating you neighbour if at all possible.


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## Sue Ellen (16 Jan 2015)

To cover all angles (your future planning matter also) I would be inclined to pay a visit to the Planning Department and have a word with them to ensure that you understand all the issues relating to this change.


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## PaddyBloggit (16 Jan 2015)

Also ... this is going to cost you legally as you need to get your solicitor involved to make sure all is 100% ... to cover come back/fall outs later. Your neighbour should carry the cost of your solicitor as you are facilitating them. Also, make sure that drains etc. aren't interfered with as they may be a problem later.

By all means, facilitate your neighbour, but cover yourself properly.


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## flowerman (16 Jan 2015)

stefg said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on the following:
> 
> ...



Sounds to me like an emotional blackmail by your neighbours.

If I were in your shoes I wouldnt give over any of my land or move back my boundary wall,fence or hedge to facilitate anyone.

Your neighbours should scale down their project to suit their land and garden size.

Your neighbours arent thinking of you or your family or your own privacy,they are only thinking of themselves so tell them NO and to scale down their project to suit the actual land and garden that they have.



You should go to the planning department and a solicitor to speak to them,as this could quite possibly have implications for you and your plans for the future.



PS-Why dont your neighbours ask the CC to take the bend out of the road?
Because the CC would tell them where to go,so they will emotionally blackmail you instead as they know you are a soft touch.


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## Vanilla (16 Jan 2015)

If I understand you correctly, then what your neighbours are asking you to do is to stop your fence earlier- ie not to bring the fence as close to the road so that it doesnt impact on their sightline of the road. This wouldnt give them any possession of your property, just the ability to see through a fence that is no longer there? 

Really, all this stuff about land grab etc is a bit OTT. You cannot put a price on being on good terms with your neighbour.


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## flowerman (16 Jan 2015)

Sue Ellen said:


> To cover all angles (your future planning matter also) I would be inclined to pay a visit to the Planning Department and have a word with them to ensure that you understand all the issues relating to this change.



+1.


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## stefg (16 Jan 2015)

flowerman said:


> Sounds to me like an emotional blackmail by your neighbours.
> 
> If I were in your shoes I wouldnt give over any of my land or move back my boundary wall,fence or hedge to facilitate anyone.
> 
> ...



flowerman, I think your post is way off the mark.  Sure the neighbours are keen to get us to agree but there is no blackmail going on and how you gathered that from the thread I don't know.

Maybe I wasn't clear earlier but as Vanilla commented the neighbours do not gain any land as the fence would just retreat from the road so there is no suggestion of a land grab.

We'll chat to the neighbours over the weekend and come to an agreement.


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## odyssey06 (16 Jan 2015)

Is there no other alternative to shortening your fence? What about a french style mirror at the end of the driveway?


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## stefg (16 Jan 2015)

Hi odyssey06,

That's a good suggestion and I'll discuss it with them and see what their engineer says.  However I have seen the response from the planning office and it does suggest that the fence needs to be moved with our permission.


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## flowerman (16 Jan 2015)

stefg said:


> flowerman, I think your post is way off the mark.  Sure the neighbours are keen to get us to agree but there is no blackmail going on and how you gathered that from the thread I don't know.
> 
> Maybe I wasn't clear earlier but as Vanilla commented the neighbours do not gain any land as the fence would just retreat from the road so there is no suggestion of a land grab.
> 
> We'll chat to the neighbours over the weekend and come to an agreement.



Well is your neighbour thinking of you when they are wanting you to shorten or move back your boundary fence or hedge??
I wonder will they be nice neighbours to you if you say No??

I replied to what you posted.You asked what peoples thoughts were on the matter.I gave you mine.If you dont like that then ok fair enough,but thats what free speech and free thought is all about.

There is no way in hell that I would move back my boundary fence or hedge just to please a neighbour and their building project.I would not like to loose my own privacy or have my garden perimeter shortened just to please a neighbour and what they want to build.

If you want to,then arrange for a meeting in the CC planning department with a planning officer,a solicitor,yourself and your neighbour all sat down at a table together and get the planning and legal facts sorted 1st and also know what you are letting yourself in for with regards to the future.
Thats what you should do before you agree to anything that your neighbour wants.

From what you have posted,I think your neighbour is taking complete advantage of your good nature and they want to use you to their own favour by making you sacrifice your fence,hedge and your privacy.


Please also remember that with regards building and renovation work,what looks nice on paper and a planning application can turn into an eyesore in the real world.And you then have to live with it for the rest of your life.

Also be mindfull of how any new shadows or blocking of sunlight from this development work will affect your right to light,your own garden and plants in the future.Because once its done it cant be reversed.

Good luck with it anyway.


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## Vanilla (17 Jan 2015)

I honestly don't see any need to consult a solicitor here- there is no new occupation or possession of your property by a neighbour. I do think it is worthwhile having a chat with whatever engineer is going to do the planning application for your garage just to see if there will be some quid pro quo needed for your own application or if the shortening of the fence could possibly make some difference. But after that, why not look after your neighbours.


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## peno (17 Jan 2015)

You could always move it so the neighbours get their planning person. Then move it back after averything has been completed - or would there be a rule that would you be prevented from doing that?? Is there any planning permission needed at your end to do whatever you like with the fence after the neighbours complete the build??


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## stefg (18 Jan 2015)

All sorted now, we had a friendly discussion about what's involved and have an agreement.  The move of the fence is just that, no change to boundaries and the letter was updated to note that, and when the fence is to be moved the neighbour will take responsibility for it.  Thanks to everyone for them comments, I'm happy this has come to an acceptable conclusion without any unnecessary complications.


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## stefg (19 Jan 2015)

flowerman said:


> Well is your neighbour thinking of you when they are wanting you to shorten or move back your boundary fence or hedge??
> I wonder will they be nice neighbours to you if you say No??
> 
> I replied to what you posted.You asked what peoples thoughts were on the matter.I gave you mine.If you dont like that then ok fair enough,but thats what free speech and free thought is all about.



The neighbours have been friendly to us even before this planning was ever submitted so there are no ulterior motives by being nice to us.

You are correct I asked for peoples' opinions about the matter and you gave yours which is appreciated, however, I am also entitled to express that I think your opinion was inaccurate and unnecessarily confrontational.  Your posts talked about emotional blackmail and a land grab being involved but nowhere in my explanation of the situation was this suggested.  So it's not a matter of me not liking your opinion, it's just that I think it was not relevant to the situation presented.


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## Leo (19 Jan 2015)

flowerman said:


> Also be mindfull of how any new shadows or blocking of sunlight from this development work will affect your right to light,your own garden and plants in the future.



There is no right to light in Ireland.


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## flowerman (19 Jan 2015)

stefg said:


> The neighbours have been friendly to us even before this planning was ever submitted so there are no ulterior motives by being nice to us.
> 
> You are correct I asked for peoples' opinions about the matter and you gave yours which is appreciated, however, I am also entitled to express that I think your opinion was inaccurate and unnecessarily confrontational.  Your posts talked about emotional blackmail and a land grab being involved but nowhere in my explanation of the situation was this suggested.  So it's not a matter of me not liking your opinion, it's just that I think it was not relevant to the situation presented.



You had to move "your fence" for a neighbour to do their buidling project.You are at a loss when it comes to privacy.Maybe you are happy with that but I know wouldnt be.

I wonder when you are doing your own building work,would your neighbour be so quick move his wall or fence to accomadate you,if needs be??


Anyway you have it sorted and you are happy for now,so thats all that matters.

Best of luck and keep a close eye on your neighbours build and make sure that he/she doesnt do anything outside his/her planning permission.


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## flowerman (19 Jan 2015)

Leo said:


> There is no right to light in Ireland.




My point being that a building or development can and will create long shadows accross other properties or land if its not designed properly or mindfully of neighbouring land.It will block out sunlight too.And people can object to planning permission (20 euro fee) on this basis if they see that their light and sunlight will be blocked out.

Our architect was very mindfull of this when he was designing our new build and with regards our neighbours land and gardens.A survey was done to see where the sunlight was at various times during the day and how any possible shadows would affect the neighbouring land in the morning time and in the evening times.

We sat down with our neighbour and showed all the information and the actual plans to them,they were happy with it all.Our planning application was passed 1st time with in 7 weeks.
But when we built our house and walls then the neighbour started complaining that our build was too big and too high.Even though we were that mindfull of her and her family from the word go.There is no shadowing of our property onto her land at all yet our neighbour complained alot and still does too.


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## daithi28 (19 Jan 2015)

In essence, you are giving consent for a portion of your fence/hedge etc to be relocated to improve the sightline for your neighbour, for traffic safety purposes. This sightline must be maintained in perpetuity. 

Please check with the Planning Office whether they are looking for a 'letter of consent' from you to your neighbour to relocate the fence or whether a legal agreement is being sought. Planning Authorities differ in this matter. Some are happy with a letter of consent, but it ain't worth the paper it's written on if the sightline isn't maintained.

Here for an example is a portion of a Additional Information request for a development which is in the same situation as your neighbour. In this case it was a legal agreement being sought;

(First bit is requesting revised sightlines to comply with Council policy). _"If revised drawings should indicate that works are required to lands adjacent to the proposed entrance to provide the minimum sightline requirements, evidence of a legal right to carry out such works should be sought from the applicant. The applicant should be requested to submit a formal legal agreement together with a map showing the extent of the lands so affected outside the site boundary and detailing the works required to comply with the visibility splay and drainage provision together with an undertaking from the landowner’s solicitor that the agreement will be entered as a burden against the title of the land"._


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## flowerman (19 Jan 2015)

daithi28 said:


> In essence, you are giving consent for a portion of your fence/hedge etc to be relocated to improve the sightline for your neighbour, for traffic safety purposes. This sightline must be maintained in perpetuity.
> 
> Please check with the Planning Office whether they are looking for a 'letter of consent' from you to your neighbour to relocate the fence or whether a legal agreement is being sought. Planning Authorities differ in this matter. Some are happy with a letter of consent, but it ain't worth the paper it's written on if the sightline isn't maintained.
> 
> ...



Great post.
Hense the need for a meeting with all parties involved,a planning officer and a solictior as mentioned by myself and others.Yet other people seem ignore the idea of a solicitor/legal advice.


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## Leo (19 Jan 2015)

flowerman said:


> My point being that a building or development can and will create long shadows accross other properties or land if its not designed properly or mindfully of neighbouring land.It will block out sunlight too.And people can object to planning permission (20 euro fee) on this basis if they see that their light and sunlight will be blocked out.



That's different than advising someone to guard a non-existent right. This thread is about the boundary and entrance sight lines. Let's stick to that and not complicate things further.


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## monagt (19 Jan 2015)

flowerman said:


> Great post.
> Hense the need for a meeting with all parties involved,a planning officer and a solictior as mentioned by myself and others.Yet other people seem ignore the idea of a solicitor/legal advice.



Don't see a right as non existent, you must be careful, would agree with Flowerman.
+ 1


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## stefg (19 Jan 2015)

daithi28 said:


> In essence, you are giving consent for a portion of your fence/hedge etc to be relocated to improve the sightline for your neighbour, for traffic safety purposes. This sightline must be maintained in perpetuity.
> 
> Please check with the Planning Office whether they are looking for a 'letter of consent' from you to your neighbour to relocate the fence or whether a legal agreement is being sought. Planning Authorities differ in this matter. Some are happy with a letter of consent, but it ain't worth the paper it's written on if the sightline isn't maintained.



The planners have requested a letter of agreement for the fence to be moved, no mention of legal agreement.


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## Seagull (20 Jan 2015)

You could always leave a low hedge or fence in place that would still show the boundary line, but would not be a visual obstruction.


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## stefg (20 Jan 2015)

Seagull said:


> You could always leave a low hedge or fence in place that would still show the boundary line, but would not be a visual obstruction.



This is something we are looking i.e. lower the existing hedge at the front and put a higher one behind the fence to keep the same level of shelter from the road.


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