# What is the absolute final "drop dead" date for paying this LPT?



## WizardDr (5 Nov 2013)

I have waded through a ton of rubbish and I cannot see a drop dead date for the payment of the LPT.

As in what date do you start accruing interest from for late payment?

Anyone?

[Lectures on the various payment options are not required - so RTFQ please]


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## Guns N Roses (5 Nov 2013)

LPT Key Dates 

1 November 2013: Liability (ownership) date for 2014
7 November 2013: Due date for submitting Payment Instruction in paper.
27 November 2013: Due date for submitting Payment Instruction on-line.
1 January 2014: Due date for payment of the 2014 liability. Full payment due if making a single payment through a Payment Service Provider.
1 January 2014 onwards: Phased payments by Deduction at Source and cash payments through a Payment Service Provider to start in January.
15 January 2014: Monthly Direct Debit payments commence and continue on 15th each month thereafter.
21 March 2014: Single Debit Authority payment deducted.


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## mandelbrot (5 Nov 2013)

1st January I would have thought, based on when full payment is due.

That's why the instruction submission dates are earlier, and the SDA / phased payment collection methods are effectively interest free means of (slightly) deferred payment.


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## Dermot (5 Nov 2013)

I see that it is 8% interest that revenue are charging.  I cannot see an exact date of when they are charging it from but I am just stating my opinion where you have not paid for 2013 that the clock will start ticking for Interest from 1st July 2013 and for 2014 the Interest clock will start ticking from 01 Jan 2014 notwithstanding all the payment options.


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## WizardDr (5 Nov 2013)

Folks

None of these tells me the 'drop dead date'.

For if you are paying by DD over the year without any additional charge (can that be right) then it could be December 31.

If the SDA is being taken on 21 March and the Revenue require X days to process (X being an integer between 1 and 271) then is 21 March + X the drop dead date?

And I notice that even Charlie Weston article had this:

"...Give your bank authority to make 12 monthly instalments

A direct debit gives authority to your bank to make a payment to a named company or government agency.

You are essentially instructing the bank to pay the tax in 12 monthly instalments. If you opt for this payment method then the first amount will come out of your bank account on January 15.

Taxpayers need to supply Revenue with the name and address of their bank, the account number and sort code.."

Is this 1/12 of the tax due or is there an additional charge?

Any answers?


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## WizardDr (5 Nov 2013)

The clock does NOT tick from 1/1/2014 thats clear as you can pay 21/3/2014.


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## DerKaiser (5 Nov 2013)

WizardDr said:


> Folks
> 
> None of these tells me the 'drop dead date'.


 
The drop dead final date is:

21st March if you want to pay it all in one go - Choose the SDA option.

Spread evenly over the year (Mid-month) if you want to pay by direct debit in 12 installments.


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## DerKaiser (5 Nov 2013)

WizardDr said:


> The clock does NOT tick from 1/1/2014 thats clear as you can pay 21/3/2014.


That's covered by the _notwithstanding all the payment options_ comment


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## WizardDr (5 Nov 2013)

@DerKaiser
@mandelbrot

Very useful - but is there a statutory reference to drop dead date - then adjusted by various payment methods?

For if that is the case then Revenue should have come out and clearly said so.


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## mandelbrot (5 Nov 2013)

Looks like my gut was right.

Tax payable date is 1st January, except salary deduction cases.
Interest accrues from the payment date, so from 1st January in all cases except salary deduction cases.

In cases where one of the phased or deferred payment options (DD, SDA) are chosen, then interest will not be charged - so clearly without that provision interest would be due on those payment options.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/act/pub/0052/sec0119.html#sec119

"(1) Subject to _subsection (2)_, local property tax contained in a self-assessment or a Revenue assessment or treated as contained in a Revenue assessment under _section 49_ shall be *payable on or before*—
(_a_) 1 July 2013, in respect of the liability date 1 May 2013, and
(_b_) *1 January, in respect of the liability date 1 November in any other year*.

(2) Local property tax which is deductible by an employer under _section 74_ shall be payable within the period specified in Regulation 28(1) and (1A) or Regulation 29(1) and (1A), as the case may be, of the PAYE Regulations (within the meaning of _section 64_ ).

(3) Local property tax which is deductible—
(_a_) by the Minister for Social Protection under _Chapter 2_ of _Part 10_ , and
(_b_) by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine under _Chapter 3_ of that Part,
shall be payable within the period specified in _section 93 (3)_ and _section 111 (3)_, respectively."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/act/pub/0052/sec0149.html#sec149

"(1) Subject to _subsection (4)_, any local property tax payable by—
(_a_) a liable person, or
(_b_) a person who is directed by the Revenue Commissioners to deduct local property tax under _Chapter 1_ , _2_ or _3_ , as the case may be, of _Part 10_ ,
*shall carry interest from—*
*(i) the date on which the tax is payable*, or
(ii) the last day of the period within which the tax is payable,
until payment and the amount of that interest shall be determined in accordance with _subsection (2)_.

(2) The interest referred to in _subsection (1)_ shall be determined by using the following formula:
T x D x R
where—
T is the local property tax payable which remains unpaid,
D is the number of days (including part of a day) in the period during which the local property tax remains unpaid, and
R is the rate of 0.0219 per cent."

(3) The interest payable under this section—
(_a_) shall not be allowed as a deduction in computing any income, profits or losses for any of the purposes of the Tax Acts,
(_b_) may be collected and recovered in like manner as an amount of local property tax,
(_c_) shall be payable to the Collector-General, and
(_d_) shall be deemed to be a debt due to the Minister for the benefit of the Central Fund.

(4) *Where a liable person—*
*(a) elects for a method of payment in a return, and*
*(b) pays the amount of local property tax in the self-assessment in the return in accordance with that method,*
*interest shall not be charged"*


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## roker (5 Nov 2013)

Through a "Payment Service Provider"; I assume this is the Post Office.
But what is a "Single Debit Authority" ?


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## Eithneangela (5 Nov 2013)

I  think it's a one-off Direct Debit - so instead of regular payments via your bank account, you're paying once!


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## theresa1 (6 Nov 2013)

Currently three Payment Service Providers:-

An Post at any Post Office
Omnivend at self service kiosks in various locations
Payzone at shops and outlets displaying the logo

Single Debit Authority is a once off bank transfer (like an electronic cheque)


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## WizardDr (6 Nov 2013)

Folks:

What Revenue have done here according to @mandelbrot is they have made the DUE DATE for 2014 January 1 2014. Whilst I could say this is outrageous, bear in mind that all your elected TDs and Senators passed this legislation. They clearly did not understand that the DUE DATE is 1/1/2014. This is what needs to be changed the eliminate the heat from this.

There are a number of reflections:

1. Revenue clearly did not articulate very clearly that in effect the tax for 2014 is really a tax for 2013 if you consider the payment dates i.e. if it were 31.12.2013 every fool would know that it is  really 2013. 24 hours is a clever trick.
2. The deduction from pay seems a vastly complicated exercise that needs a reconciliation process inside Revenue - which they obviously decided to do.
3. All they have to do is allow 'single debits' to be allocated in the same way and to be fully paid in line with 2 above and I believe that is straight forward.
4. I assume some hugely expensive consultants like Accenture designed this but obviously did not query the absurdity of the date.
5. The lack of Revenue spokeperson to simply say that the actual due date is 1 January (which would have come as a surprise to many and obviously the TDs) and that they have cobbled together a deduction from pay as a concession and the single debit authority as another concession would have focused the debate exactly where it should have been - the Due Date.

That is where the debate should be. 


@mandelbrot - thanks for the clarification.


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## DerKaiser (6 Nov 2013)

WizardDr said:


> That is where the debate should be



What's the point of all this? It's blatantly obvious that salary deduction, direct debit or single debit authority are the best options.

I got my letter, setup the single debit for 21st March 2014 in two minutes and moved on.

This tax is a reality, there's no point in continuing with petty arguments about why one payment method is less fair than another.


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## Bronte (7 Nov 2013)

DerKaiser said:


> This tax is a reality, there's no point in continuing with petty arguments about why one payment method is less fair than another.


 
Absolutly DerKaiser, and it's all a nonsense really as people don't have to go with what they perceive to be a method of payment that they don't like. 

Mandelbrot, excellent research there, as always.  Can you tell me this, is Revenue allowed to bypass the due date in the legislation of Jan 1 by allowing us to pay in 2014 over 12 months by DD or in one payment in March. 

Basically Revenue are making up their own rules?


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## DerKaiser (7 Nov 2013)

Bronte said:


> Can you tell me this, is Revenue allowed to bypass the due date in the legislation of Jan 1 by allowing us to pay in 2014 over 12 months by DD or in one payment in March.
> 
> Basically Revenue are making up their own rules?


 
Probably the best way to look at it is that the tax is due on 1st Jan, but flexible interest free payment options exist in the form of single debit, regular direct debit and regular salary deduction.

Revenue should just come out and say this to shut people up!!!


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## orka (7 Nov 2013)

WizardDr said:


> What Revenue have done here according to @mandelbrot is they have made the DUE DATE for 2014 January 1 2014. Whilst I could say this is outrageous,


Why is it outrageous to have the due date of 1 January? Lots of services have to be paid for in advance of the 'benefit' - if your insurance runs from 1 January, you have to pay by 31 December or you don't have cover from midnight. The LPT is (in theory at least...) supposed to cover local services - how are the local services to be paid for in January if people don't pay their LPT until the following December?



DerKaiser said:


> Probably the best way to look at it is that the tax is due on 1st Jan, but flexible interest free payment options exist in the form of single debit, regular direct debit and regular salary deduction.
> 
> Revenue should just come out and say this to shut people up!!!


+1


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## mandelbrot (7 Nov 2013)

Bronte said:


> Absolutly DerKaiser, and it's all a nonsense really as people don't have to go with what they perceive to be a method of payment that they don't like.
> 
> Mandelbrot, excellent research there, as always.  Can you tell me this, is Revenue allowed to bypass the due date in the legislation of Jan 1 by allowing us to pay in 2014 over 12 months by DD or in one payment in March.
> 
> Basically Revenue are making up their own rules?



No, of course they're not making up their own rules! It's enshrined in the final bit of the legislation that I made bold, in my previous post, subsection 4 of the relevant section of the Act:
(4) *Where a liable person—*
*(a) elects for a method of payment in a return, and*
*(b) pays the amount of local property tax in the self-assessment in the return in accordance with that method,*
*interest shall not be charged"*

So again as I said previously, people who simply HAVE TO pay by laser/debit card/credit card can simply file their return, select the option to pay during the year through a service provider, and then pay it whenever it suits them at the post office or whatever other outlets suit... it may cost them an extra euro or 2 to do it that way, but that's the cost of having the flexibility to pay it interest free whenever it suits them...


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## ang1170 (7 Nov 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> So again as I said previously, people who simply HAVE TO pay by laser/debit card/credit card can simply file their return, select the option to pay during the year through a service provider, and then pay it whenever it suits them at the post office or whatever other outlets suit... it may cost them an extra euro or 2 to do it that way, but that's the cost of having the flexibility to pay it interest free whenever it suits them...


 
Would anyone care to speculate on what might happen if one selected "pay through service provider" at this stage, and come January actually paid online by debit card?

Would that option still be available for those who "accidently missed" the deadline? It would seem extraordinary if it wasn't.


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## Time (7 Nov 2013)

What happens if you fail to log on before the 27th but go to the post office and pay anyways?


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## mandelbrot (7 Nov 2013)

Time said:


> What happens if you fail to log on before the 27th but go to the post office and pay anyways?



Then they'll be liable for interest - that's how I read it anyway, since they haven't elected that payment method in a return.


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## Bronte (7 Nov 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> No, of course they're not making up their own rules! It's enshrined in the final bit of the legislation that I made bold, in my previous post, subsection 4 of the relevant section of the Act:
> (4) *Where a liable person—*
> *(a) elects for a method of payment in a return, and*
> *(b) pays the amount of local property tax in the self-assessment in the return in accordance with that method,*
> *interest shall not be charged"*


 
So the method of payment is made up by Revenue, and they plucked the 21st March for SDA out of thin air?

On another point, I hadn't realised until you said it that those who want to pay by credit card next year can do it if they a) fill out the option now and b) go to the post office later and pay it that way.

Wizard, what does RTFQ mean?


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## mandelbrot (7 Nov 2013)

Bronte said:


> Wizard, what does RTFQ mean?



RTFQ means "Read The Effing Question" - something students are repeatedly told in prepping for exams...


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## Bronte (7 Nov 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> RTFQ means "Read The Effing Question" - something students are repeatedly told in prepping for exams...


 
Thanks M, I got as far as reply to ? question


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## mandelbrot (7 Nov 2013)

Bronte said:


> So the method of payment is made up by Revenue, and they plucked the 27th March for SDA out of thin air?



Some authority to make Regulations for the collection is delegated to Revenue, and it appears that they picked the date of 27th March as the SDA date.



Bronte said:


> On another point, I hadn't realised until you said it that those who want to pay by credit card next year can do it if they a) fill out the option now and b) go to the post office later and pay it that way.



I'm baffled at the fact that the thing is such a big deal, because this method exists, and means that no-one need necessarily pay a dime until next December if they don't want to.


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## Bronte (7 Nov 2013)

Well I must say I'm baffled too about all the fuss, but it wasn't until your post that I knew about the option for everybody to pay next year. I at least have an excuse, revenue did not send me the letter, so I didn't know the options, they apparently, they think, sent the letter to the property address.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/lpt-obligations-2014.html

The above is very clear on what one has to do, (it's the first time I've seen that page)

and equally clear is the fact that even with a credit card or debit card, you don't have to pay anything in 2013

_Commencing in January, you can make regular payments by cash/debit card through An Post; by cash and credit/debit card through Payzone outlets (depends on the individual outlet) or by cash through Omnivend. These methods will incur transaction handling charges by service providers._
_On or before 1 January 2014, you can opt to pay in full by cash/debit card through An Post; by cash and credit/debit card through Payzone outlets (depends on the individual outlet) or by cash through Omnivend. These methods will incur transaction handling charges by service providers_


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## ang1170 (7 Nov 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> Then they'll be liable for interest - that's how I read it anyway, since they haven't elected that payment method in a return.


 
If that's the case, further proof of the utter idiocy of the whole setup.


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## Time (7 Nov 2013)

But surely if he pays before 1-1-2014 there is no interest?


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## mandelbrot (7 Nov 2013)

Time said:


> But surely if he pays before 1-1-2014 there is no interest?



Sorry I misunderstood what you were asking, thought you meant a payment after 1/1/2014.

They can't be liable for interest if they've paid before the due date.


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## Time (7 Nov 2013)

So there would be no sanction for ignoring the letter?


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## Bronte (8 Nov 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> I'm baffled at the fact that the thing is such a big deal, because this method exists, and means that no-one need necessarily pay a dime until next December if they don't want to.


 
I'm was on the revenue site trying to pay by SDA, but just to see what the options were I hit debit/credit card and get this message:

_Note that the payment will be charged to your card today._

I do not see an option to pay in An Post next year with this?


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## mandelbrot (8 Nov 2013)

Bronte said:


> I'm was on the revenue site trying to pay by SDA, but just to see what the options were I hit debit/credit card and get this message:
> 
> _Note that the payment will be charged to your card today._
> 
> I do not see an option to pay in An Post next year with this?



Cash/service provider payment option?


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## Bronte (8 Nov 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> Cash/service provider payment option?


 
No it was not an option. I'm trying to remember, there were 4 options I think, credit/debit card, SDA, monthly something (salary I think) and the fourth I cannot now remember, would it be direct debit.

If it had the button you mentioned I would have checked that to see what it said.  

Has anyone actually managed to go with the credit card option that is not now, but later I wonder?  Was it an option last year?


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## putsch (8 Nov 2013)

I'm just getting around to this now and spent an hour or so on revenue.ie trying to figure it out. Last year I got no letter but paid by single debit authority (I sent them a  letter with the necessary details) - received no receipt or acknowledgment. No letter received this time either (despite the confident assertion to the contrary by Revenue - see below). In some places the site implies that I would be able to select online by using pps number only but actually couldn't find a way to do that.............any know if there is such a way? Can't afford the time or money to be holding on the line for ages - is there a form I can print off?

The site says this  _Those who paid their 2013 LPT in one lump sum (i.e. by single debit authority, debit/credit card, cheque/postal order/cash) or by regular cash payments *received a letter* (no I didn't). Letters included a Property ID, PIN and confirmed the amount due for 2014. Letters to owners of multiple properties confirmed the total amount of LPT due for 2014 on all of their properties._


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## Bronte (8 Nov 2013)

putsch said:


> ? Can't afford the time or money to be holding on the line for ages - is there a form I can print off?
> 
> _._


 
You absolutely have to have a property ID and PIn number, the only way to get this is to ring the 'first' helpdesk, who cannot help you, but they can transfer you to the 'second' helpdesk, called Head Office and they can give you the info over the phone.  

Apparently the Chairman of revenue stated the wait time as 6 minutes and she was completely incorrect.


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## mandelbrot (8 Nov 2013)

Bronte said:


> No it was not an option. I'm trying to remember, there were 4 options I think, credit/debit card, SDA, monthly something (salary I think) and the fourth I cannot now remember, would it be direct debit.
> 
> If it had the button you mentioned I would have checked that to see what it said.
> 
> Has anyone actually managed to go with the credit card option that is not now, but later I wonder?  Was it an option last year?



Well I don't know, because I'm not a property owner. But the Revenue website says, in the section where it lists the options:

"Commencing in January, you can make regular payments by cash/debit card through An Post; by cash and credit/debit card through Payzone outlets (depends on the individual outlet) or by cash through Omnivend. These methods will incur transaction handling charges by service providers."

So i may have been wrong in suggesting you could avoid paying until December 2014 with that method, since it says "commencing in January" and "regular payments"...


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## orka (8 Nov 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> So i may have been wrong in suggesting you could avoid paying until December 2014 with that method, since it says "commencing in January" and "regular payments"...


Yes, from the Revenue FAQs, it does appear that with the cash payments options, you either pay in one lump by 1 January 2014 or else you select a frequency (weekly/monthly) which it is then your responsibility to keep track of and up to date.

*7. When should I start making my phased payments through a Payment Service Provider?*
You should start making your payments through a Payment Service Provider from 1 Janurary 2014. You should ensure that you pay your total LPT due for 2014 by the end of 2014. The payments should be equal amounts and should be paid according to the payment frequency that you selected. See also Question 8. 
*8. How will I know how much to pay each week/month?*
You should ensure that you take note of the total amount of LPT due for 2014 and the frequency of payment that you chose. You should calculate the amount of LPT that you will need to pay for each phased payment by dividing the total amount of LPT due by the number of weeks/months left from the date you start your payments to the end of the year.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/lpt/payment-options/cash-payments.html


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## Bronte (8 Nov 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> So i may have been wrong in suggesting you could avoid paying until December 2014 with that method, since it says "commencing in January" and "regular payments"...


 
Sahd, who posted above, posted in the other PT thread that this method of payment was not available to owners of multiple properties.  So maybe that's why I didn't see this option button.


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