# Mgmt company preventing short term lets



## SomeRandomer (11 Nov 2017)

I have a 2 bed apartment in Dublin 8 that I've been renting out on a short term basis on Airbnb. I recently received a letter from the management company saying that short term lets are in breach of the lease and are prohibited.

They highlighted this clause in the lease:

"The Demised premises being an apartment the Lessee shall not use the premises or any part thereof for any illegal or immoral purpose nor allow any trade or business to be carried on there nor any boarders or lodgers to be taken but shall use the premises for the purpose of a single, private or private and professional residence only".

They go on to say

"This clause specifically prohibits us of the apartments for business purposes. It further prohibits any boarders or lodgers. The plain meaning of this would prevent owners from renting out a room whether through Airbnb or otherwise. Anyone renting a property under Airbnb is not using it as their private residence."

They then say anyone renting their property for short term lets would be issued with a warning letter regarding breaches of the Lease, and if necessary they would bring court proceedings to force compliance with the Lease. They would also make a complaint to the local authority so that enforcement action can be taken in relation to the breach of planning. 

So are they 100% correct in this, and I have to stop short term rentals? I read that Dublin city council haven't taken a position on short term rentals and were reluctant to get involved in policing this whole area.


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## DeeKie (11 Nov 2017)

Interesting wording. What’s a professional residence?


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## SomeRandomer (11 Nov 2017)

Good question


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## noproblem (11 Nov 2017)

Not really answering your question but is it worth messing around with the management co?


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## llgon (11 Nov 2017)

DeeKie said:


> Interesting wording. What’s a professional residence?



I think it's "private and professional residence" rather than professional residence. Presumably to cover those who work from home.


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## Palerider (11 Nov 2017)

Continue doing as you are, there was discussion that planning might be required but I don't think that is in place yet if ever it will be.

You own the unit, you can use it as you like as far as I would be concerned, once your lodgers are not causing a nuisance to other occupiers of course, no noise or parking issues.

All that said is it worth the hassle.


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## Sarenco (11 Nov 2017)

SomeRandomer said:


> I read that Dublin city council haven't taken a position on short term rentals and were reluctant to get involved in policing this whole area.


I don't know where you read that - it's not true:-
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/con...action-over-25-airbnb-style-rentals-1.3143378


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## newtothis (11 Nov 2017)

Palerider said:


> You own the unit, you can use it as you like as far as I would be concerned, once your lodgers are not causing a nuisance to other occupiers of course, no noise or parking issues.



Not true, if the apartment is subject to a lease agreement, which seems to be the case here.


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## uptomyeyesin (12 Nov 2017)

It might be worth asking what the difference is between air BnB lodger and renting a room out for example? That would be a lodger so are they banned too? Are you advertising the full property for short let's, when you live there most of the time or do you live somewhere else and want to short let it most of the time? 

I have heard of another mgt co that banned air BnB let's, there was a story in the paper of a family who were renting out their apartment in Dublin this way and management company clamped down on it. 

Another point to consider, they threaten you with legal action. You are a member of the management company and the budget each year is approved by the members. You could raise it at AGM and see if members want to spend significant amount of company funds pursuing this action.  If members and directors don't approve the spend, the management's agent representing the company cannot go ahead with it.

Finally as yet I don't believe there is a planning requirement for air BnB short let's but a call to your local council should confirm this.


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## mathepac (12 Nov 2017)

@uptomyeyesin did you read the OP?


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## Vanessa (12 Nov 2017)

While Airbnb could fairly be said to be taking properties away from the long term rental sector it is providing reasonably priced accommodation for tourists in cities where there is a shortage of hotel rooms.
There is also a terrible begrudging attitude to anyone who makes a profit in this country. I would also believe that the majority of Airbnb earnings are not declared for tax purposes. There is a bill going through the Senate which proposes restricting short term rentals to a total of six weeks in a year.


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## lff12 (12 Nov 2017)

Generally where there is a management company clampdown on AirBnB its for antisocial behaviour.  If your lets went to quiet visitors nobody would have noticed, but I think much of the issue with AirBnB is its popularity with those who come to party, which almost certainly will result in a barrage of complaints to management companies.  Chances are you've either had such complaints or ignored them, or another AirBnB owner has failed to act, so the management company rules have been used to come back at whatever owner was not responding.  AirBnB isn't itself the problem, the problem is that with many other accommodation services likely to reject hen/stag style groups in a city where this makes up a huge proportion of visitors, such forms of long term accommodation will be a strong option.
I'd suggest talking to the management company as you do have a voice as an owner, and trying to find out if a compromise can be reached.  Not sure how readily they can enforce their "rules" but would suspect they probably can do a lot to make your business difficult to operate.


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## cremeegg (12 Nov 2017)

Vanessa said:


> I would also believe that the majority of Airbnb earnings are not declared for tax purposes.



Every penny of Airbnb income is declared by Airbnb directly to Revenue.

Airbnb files a Form 46G with Revenue each year showing details of every host and their exact income from Airbnb.

It really isn't nice to slag off a large group of people, who are working hard to earn some money, developing the capacity of the tourist industry, to the benefit of many other service providers and paying tax, when you have no idea what you are talking about.


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## cremeegg (12 Nov 2017)

Vanessa said:


> There is a bill going through the Senate which proposes restricting short term rentals to a total of six weeks in a year.



I dont believe that this is correct either. My local TD tells me that 

_"the Government has set up a working group on the matter which consists of representatives from the Department of Housing, Community and Local Government, the Departments of Finance and of Jobs and the Department of Enterprise and Innovation, An Bord Pleanála, Fáilte Ireland, the Residential Tenancies Board, and Dublin City Council.

And the Working Group will produce a report on the appropriate regulatory approach for short-term tourism-related lettings and will identify the necessary amendments to legislation required to effect such regulation; that report will be finalised shortly."_


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## Leo (13 Nov 2017)

uptomyeyesin said:


> Another point to consider, they threaten you with legal action. You are a member of the management company and the budget each year is approved by the members. You could raise it at AGM and see if members want to spend significant amount of company funds pursuing this action. If members and directors don't approve the spend, the management's agent representing the company cannot go ahead with it.



Based on history of such cases to date (example), the management company are almost certain to win the case. Planning permission is required to change use from residential to short term let.

Having units that are let short term may cause issues with the block insurance.


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## T McGibney (13 Nov 2017)

Vanessa said:


> There is also a terrible begrudging attitude to anyone who makes a profit in this country. I would also believe that the majority of Airbnb earnings are not declared for tax purposes.



Irony deficit here.


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## NicolaM (13 Nov 2017)

lff12 said:


> Generally where there is a management company clampdown on AirBnB its for antisocial behaviour. If your lets went to quiet visitors nobody would have noticed, but I think much of the issue with AirBnB is its popularity with those who come to party, which almost certainly will result in a barrage of complaints to management companies. Chances are you've either had such complaints or ignored them, or another AirBnB owner has failed to act, so the management company rules have been used to come back at whatever owner was not resp



I  completely agree with this. 
Funnily enough I also own an apartment in D8.
One of the units was being used for Airbnb for a   number of years with absolutely no issues.
Subsequent to thus,  another owner started the same.  Unfortunately his Tennants were involved in vomiting in the lift, repeated  noise disturbance, using owners designated parking spaces, .multiple drunken strangers wandering around the apartment complex, multiple people with access to the apartment entry codes. Etc etc.
Completely awful for the residents. 
I suspect there would be no management company involvement without anti-social behaviour being an issue. Has the OP had any interaction with the management company detailing issues with the people he has rented to?


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## newtothis (13 Nov 2017)

Vanessa said:


> There is also a terrible begrudging attitude to anyone who makes a profit in this country.



That may or may not be the case, but how is it relevant to this situation?

Most business activity is in general a positive thing. However, some business activities have significant drawbacks, and this is one of them. I think it entirely reasonable to restrict a business activity where it impinges on neighbouring people's homes. If I bought or rented an apartment to live in I'd have an expectation I'd be surrounded by people in similar circumstances, not that I'd checked myself into a reception-free hotel.

My objection would have nothing to do to an antipathy to business or the profit motive.


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## SomeRandomer (13 Nov 2017)

NicolaM said:


> I  completely agree with this.
> Funnily enough I also own an apartment in D8.
> One of the units was being used for Airbnb for a   number of years with absolutely no issues.
> Subsequent to thus,  another owner started the same.  Unfortunately his Tennants were involved in vomiting in the lift, repeated  noise disturbance, using owners designated parking spaces, .multiple drunken strangers wandering around the apartment complex, multiple people with access to the apartment entry codes. Etc etc.
> ...



I hadn't a single problem with Airbnb guests while doing the short term lets. No complaints from neighbours as both sides have my contact details and would have been in touch if there were issues.

My apartment is less than 15 minutes walk from Temple Bar but I never got requests from stag or hen parties, just couple and families that were always nice and very respectful

In contrast to this I had problems with long term tenants that the apartment was rented to before I put it on Airbnb.


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## lantus (13 Nov 2017)

A boarder or lodger is person that occupies the property with and buys a room. Like a b&b. If you rent out the entire property they are not that.

Either way the omc would need to take an expensive civil case.


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## Sarenco (14 Nov 2017)

lantus said:


> Either way the omc would need to take an expensive civil case.


To lodge a complaint with the planning authority?


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## llgon (14 Nov 2017)

Sarenco said:


> To lodge a complaint with the planning authority?



Does planning not apply to the development as a whole rather than each individual apartment?  Would the OMC not effectively be making a complaint against itself and be still left in a position where it would need to take action against the apartment owner?


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## Sarenco (14 Nov 2017)

llgon said:


> Does planning not apply to the development as a whole rather than each individual apartment?  Would the OMC not effectively be making a complaint against itself and be still left in a position where it would need to take action against the apartment owner?



No, a material change of use of an individual apartment would require planning permission.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/con...apartment-needs-planning-permission-1.2672246


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## newtothis (14 Nov 2017)

Interesting piece in today's Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...bnb-dublin-s-most-lucrative-rentals-1.3290592

No doubt they quote the extremes, but the general point is clear enough: this is increasingly a full-scale business. Again, I'd have no objections to this as a business in an appropriate location in the same way I'd have no objections to someone building a hotel down the road from me: the more visitors to an area, the more vitality and overall business for everyone. However, I'd have a big issue if the building in which my apartment was located was transformed from residences to what is effectively a hotel, minus the on-site staff to manage it.

I thinki it entirely reasonable for apartment leases to have the kinds of restrictions mentioned by the OP.


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## uptomyeyesin (15 Nov 2017)

Leo said:


> Based on history of such cases to date (example), the management company are almost certain to win the case. Planning permission is required to change use from residential to short term let.
> 
> Having units that are let short term may cause issues with the block insurance.



They might win but the company might not have the funds to pay the legal fees to take the case in the first place. It could just be a practical blocker to this. The letter they have sent so far is free, anymore spend would have to be director approved. Doesn't really address the issue but by default could stop this going any further. Just a thought.


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## Sarenco (15 Nov 2017)

uptomyeyesin said:


> They might win but the company might not have the funds to pay the legal fees to take the case in the first place.


What legal fees?  Anybody can make a planning enforcement complaint to their local authority - it's cost free.


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## DB74 (15 Nov 2017)

At what point do you go "I'm breaking the rules of my lease so instead of trying to wrangle a way out of it I'm just going to stop" or does that attitude just not apply in this country any more.


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## Leo (15 Nov 2017)

uptomyeyesin said:


> They might win but the company might not have the funds to pay the legal fees to take the case in the first place.



Sarenco is spot on. Any legal fees the result would be initially borne by the local authority, and they would ultimately seek these be paid by the apartment owner.


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## cremeegg (15 Nov 2017)

DB74 said:


> At what point do you go "I'm breaking the rules of my lease so instead of trying to wrangle a way out of it I'm just going to stop" or does that attitude just not apply in this country any more.



There is a perception that when you buy a property it is yours to do with as you please. This is partially true for a freehold property and totally untrue for a leasehold.

If you buy a freehold property, there are many limitations on what you may do with it. These are generally well known and people do not resent them as they are so well established.

If you buy a leasehold property, you can effectively do nothing with it except what is permitted under the lease. As this type of property has become more common in recent years with the rise of apartment living people are only beginning to come to terms with the restrictions on how you can use your leasehold property.

Buying an apartment is just buying the right to use the property for a limited set of purposes, you do not actually own much.


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## odyssey06 (15 Nov 2017)

Timely article on Council enforcement:
https://www.dublininquirer.com/2017...-council-in-tackling-illegal-short-term-lets/


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## SomeRandomer (18 Nov 2017)

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like the only option is to put it back on the market and rent long term. However this makes me pretty nervous considering what tenants can get away with, for example if they just stop paying the rent, change the locks etc.

I know most tenants are probably fine but something like this could happen. What protection do LLs have if a tenant stops paying the rent? From what I've read the LL has to chase them through the courts which could potentially take several months.

Does anyone have any experience of this, and is there any way to protect against something like this happening?


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## vincentgav (21 Aug 2018)

Just rent the apartment to someone: there’s a housing crisis.

The mgmt company is dead right to stop AirBnB. The noise, random people coming day and night.

Let the property, there’s people who need it.

Get a good tenant and they won’t do that. I changed locks once when a LL kept entering the property. I gave him the new keys when I moved out. He didn’t realise he was breaking an entry by walking in off his own bat.

Get good, professional tenants. Treat them fairly, as in; leave them alone, get things fixed and you’ll be fine.

I’d say in a lot of horror stories the LL’s conduct was partly to blame. That’s if the stories are even true.


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## Leo (21 Aug 2018)

Hope they haven't taken 9 months to make their minds up...


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## vincentgav (21 Aug 2018)

Haha, just saw after posting!


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## SomeRandomer (24 Aug 2018)

vincentgav said:


> Just rent the apartment to someone: there’s a housing crisis.



I prefer to rent short term as there's more income which allows me pay off my mortgage quicker, and also covers the thousands I spent renovating the place over the years. Plus I need to stay there a few times a year for work, couldn't do this if it was rented long term.



vincentgav said:


> Get good, professional tenants.



How exactly do I do that? I had what I thought were good tenants in the past.. one night they ripped the fire extinguishers off the walls and started spraying each other with them. Another set of tenants left without paying the final 2 months rent and left the place in a state, including holes punched in doors and a broken window. Like I said previously, in four years of short term rental I never had a minute's trouble and my neighbours never had any reason to complain.



vincentgav said:


> I’d say in a lot of horror stories the LL’s conduct was partly to blame. That’s if the stories are even true.



I know people that had nightmare tenants including friends that rented to a couple that were both members of the gardai. They didn't pay rent for several months and my friend eventually had to go to the tenant's supervisor to recover the lost rent. An example of your "good professional tenants".


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