# Ownership of car after breakup



## fangs (15 Jun 2020)

Just looking for an opinion here on best way to go about this.  Facts below

1. I sourced and bought the car and have receipts proving this etc. - worth 14-16k
2. Car is registered in ex-partners name.  Not registered in my name as I drive a company vehicle and my no claims bonus is tied up with company.  She has main insurance on car and I'm a named driver. (reason why car is registered in her name)
3. She is in possession of car.  
3. We have split up recently and she is intimating that she won't give the car back (she considers it a gift)
4. I have told her I expect car back etc. but willing to give her a loan to buy a cheaper car she can afford.
5. We don't have any written agreements as to what would happen in event of splitting up
6. Understanding between us was that car was for dual purpose, she uses it for commuting to work and we both used it then for evenings and weekends

What's the legal position with regard to ownership (registered owner or person who paid for it?) and what is best way of getting possession of car if reasoning doesn't work?
Appreciate your help folks


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## BoscoTalking (15 Jun 2020)

Can you prove it’s yours? As in payments on a loan? *o*otherwise I’m afraid she can prove it’s hers and you can forget about it / put it down to experience.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (15 Jun 2020)

Whose receipt is the name in?

Did you pay the garage by transfer from your account?

How long ago since car was bought?

Who paid has paid for repairs?


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## mathepac (15 Jun 2020)

fangs said:


> 1. I sourced and bought the car and have receipts proving this etc. - worth 14-16k


Proof of beneficial ownership of the vehicle right there, no ifs, ands or buts. Name on registration document proves nothing in terms of ownership and insurance details don't either. The log-book/registration document states specifically that possession of it is not proof of ownership of the vehicle.

It's yours, get it back. BTW your partner may have made an erroneous mis-leading declaration on the insurance proposal document. "Is the vehicle yours and registered in your name?" from memory is a question that arises.

Solicitor's letter with copies of invoices/receipts is the way to proceed I think, with 7 days to act, otherwise report it stolen.


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## BoscoTalking (15 Jun 2020)

Standing corrected.


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## fangs (15 Jun 2020)

Thanks for your response guys.  Yes, I can prove I paid for it (cash by bank transfer) and arranged for the purchase and transport in from UK.  The receipt is in my name.  The car was bought last September, so no maintenance / repairs etc yet.  As I say, the car was registered in her name originally for insurance reasons only.  I live and learn.  Thanks for the clarification anyway, if she doesn't play ball, solicitors letter it is.  

If she ignores the solicitors letter, whats the next step after that?  Courts or as you say report it stolen?  As she is the name on the registration document, does that not confer ownership?


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## losttheplot (15 Jun 2020)

mathepac said:


> ...The log-book/registration document states specifically that possession of it it not proof of ownership of the vehicle.


I thought that just means possession of the log book doesn't prove ownership. If I stole a log book it doesn't mean I own the car, I need to register a change of ownership.



mathepac said:


> It's yours, get it back. BTW your partner may have made an erroneous mis-leading declaration on the insurance proposal document. "Is the vehicle yours and registered in your name?" from memory is a question that arises.


It is registered in their name and I'm sure they will claim they own it. They could claim it was a gift.

Not sure you can report it stolen if you're not the registered owner and Gardai probably wouldn't be impressed chasing up on a stolen car that's in the possession of its registered owner.

Finance companies would have a loan agreement in place to claim ownership.


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## mathepac (15 Jun 2020)

fangs said:


> As she is the name on the registration document, does that not confer ownership?


Read my post again or read a registration document


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## mathepac (15 Jun 2020)

losttheplot said:


> I thought that just means possession of the log book doesn't prove ownership. If I stole a log book it doesn't mean I own the car, I need to register a change of ownership.
> 
> 
> It is registered in their name and I'm sure they will claim they own it. They could claim it was a gift.
> ...


Read my post again and read a registration document. The OP has an invoice from the seller as well as receipts for transport from the UK. VRT receipt on credit card or cheque statement?


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## Gordon Gekko (16 Jun 2020)

But surely that’s all noise if the car is registered in the other person’s name?

If I register a car in your name and you’re driving around in it, does it really matter if I can demonstrate that I paid for it? You can just claim that it was a gift from me and to any outsider, that’s what it looks like.


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## EmmDee (16 Jun 2020)

mathepac said:


> Read my post again and read a registration document. The OP has an invoice from the seller as well as receipts for thransport from the UK. VRT receipt on credit card or cheque statement?



I have a receipt for the bracelet I gave my wife last Christmas.

If I pay for a car but then register it in my wife's name, it won't be trivial to prove I still own it.


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## mathepac (16 Jun 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> But surely that’s all noise if the car is registered in the other person’s name?
> 
> If I register a car in your name and you’re driving around in it, does it really matter if I can demonstrate that I paid for it? You can just claim that it was a gift from me and to any outsider, that’s what it looks like.


There's a lot of irrelevant noise in here but I'm not the person making it.


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## mathepac (16 Jun 2020)

EmmDee said:


> I have a receipt for the bracelet I gave my wife last Christmas.
> 
> If I pay for a car but then register it in my wife's name, it won't be trivial to prove I still own it.


A bracelet is not a car and a car is not a bracelet, I'd have thought that was obvious, but by all means try showing up at your LA motor-tax office and asking to register and pay motor tax on a bracelet. Also OP did not say he and his partner are married.

In the UK, they make it a little easier to understand by specifically referring to the person/company whose name appears on the registration document as the "registered keeper". Maybe we need to make that distinction here as well instead of using the terms "registered owner" and "beneficial owner".

If the OP's partner has no beneficial interest in the car, then it cannot be validly insured in her name as she has no beneficial interest in the car.


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## Gordon Gekko (16 Jun 2020)

mathepac, why is this so difficult for you to understand? I go out to Joe Duffy Motors today and buy a car. Except I register it in your name and you drive around in it for months. In my view, I own the car. We fall out and there’s a dispute over the ownership of the car. I claim it’s mine and have a convoluted story about my company car. You just say that it was a gift, that you’ve been using it almost exclusively for months, and that it’s registered in your name. Yours is the more likely story. Yours is the one that the available evidence points to.


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## EmmDee (16 Jun 2020)

mathepac said:


> A bracelet is not a car and a car is not a bracelet, I'd have thought that was obvious, but by all means try showing up at your LA motor-tax office and asking to register and pay motor tax on a bracelet. Also OP did not say he and his partner are married.
> 
> In the UK, they make it a little easier to understand by specifically referring to the person/company whose name appears on the registration document as the "registered keeper". Maybe we need to make that distinction here as well instead of using the terms "registered owner" and "beneficial owner".
> 
> If the OP's partner has no beneficial interest in the car, then it cannot be validly insured in her name as she has no beneficial interest in the car.



You do realise I wasn't suggesting you pay for anything with a bracelet - the point was that paying for something doesn't give an automatic entitlement to ownership. Likewise the married question is another straw man - it's irrelevant

By being the registered owner, the partner has the default ownership. The OP would have to prove the reality is different. Having receipts isn't an open and shut case. Anything can be purchased and gifted. And it is validly insured as the question is whether you are the owner - not the purchaser. And the standard record of ownership is the registration.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (16 Jun 2020)

What is not in dispute is:


OP has paid for the car
It is registered in ex-girlfriend's name, insured also for the best part of a year
Ex-girlfriend is in possession of the car

Therefore can claim it was a gift. The burden of proof is on the OP to prove that it wasn't, and with no written agreement in place that will be very difficult.


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2020)

You broke up with your partner. Move on with your life. You have a company car. You were offering her a loan to buy another car. Why not use that money to buy yourself a car if you want a car that badly? I remember paying off a girlfriends credit card bill of thousands when I was in my 20's and she was stressed out. We broke up six months later. I never expected her to repay the money to me. It was my decision at the time to help her out and I was glad to be in a position to do so. Life is too short. Move on instead of looking for legal battles against someone you used to care about.

Even though now that I think of it, I could do with the money now....... Wonder is she on facebook....


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## Early Riser (16 Jun 2020)

Sunny said:


> Even though now that I think of it, I could do with the money now....... Wonder is she on facebook....



Compound interest?


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## Sunny (16 Jun 2020)

Early Riser said:


> Compound interest?



Never thought of that. This is could be great. Need to go on the other thread floating around about how to hide money from my wife though!


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## lughildanach (16 Jun 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> What is not in dispute is:
> 
> 
> OP has paid for the car
> ...


If she claimed it was a gift, would CAT apply?


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## Leo (16 Jun 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Yours is the one that the available evidence points to.



Exactly, the earlier point is quite valid, a car is not a bracelet. There is no legal requirement to register a change in ownership of a bracelet whereas there is for a car. If the partner hasn't complied with their obligations under the act, can they really claim ownership?


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## shweeney (16 Jun 2020)

you can't jointly register a car, it has to go in one name or the other. But most family cars would be considered "jointly" owned. Even if the couple in question aren't married, it wouldn't be an unusual arrangement to have one car between them. Someone mentioned insurance earlier - usually they ask if the car is owned by you or your spouse, but by spouse they generally also mean co-habiting partner.

If she's refusing to offer anything then you probably need a solicitor OP, with a reasonable possibility that you will lose.


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## Gordon Gekko (16 Jun 2020)

lughildanach said:


> If she claimed it was a gift, would CAT apply?



No, the first €3k would be disregarded and then some of the Group C threshold of circa €16k would cover the rest.


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## losttheplot (16 Jun 2020)

Even in the UK the registered owner seems to be recognised as the owner.





__





						Angry wife sells DJ's £25,000 car for 50p
					





					www.business-live.co.uk


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## Bronte (17 Jun 2020)

fangs said:


> Thanks for your response guys.  Yes, I can prove I paid for it (cash by bank transfer) and arranged for the purchase and transport in from UK.  The receipt is in my name.  The car was bought last September, so no maintenance / repairs etc yet.  As I say, the car was registered in her name originally for insurance reasons only.  I live and learn.  Thanks for the clarification anyway, if she doesn't play ball, solicitors letter it is.
> 
> If she ignores the solicitors letter, whats the next step after that?  Courts or as you say report it stolen?  As she is the name on the registration document, does that not confer ownership?


There’s a famous song from the movies Frozen









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But by all means start a war. 

- How do you get around to things like shops on the weekends now?
- Why is she so mad at you she’s refusing to give you back, your, car. 
- solicitors will love you
- the ex will hate you, and just wait until she gets a solicitors letter, never mind the Gardai showing up when you lie and report the car stolen, that fact you’ve even considered that latter point is revealing. 
- one good lesson you’ve learnt, don’t buy expensive items when you’re madly in love but not married, 
- finally, you need to watch Judge Judy, the amount of couples having arguments over cars is only beaten by arguments over engagement ring ownership


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## Bronte (17 Jun 2020)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> What is not in dispute is:
> 
> 
> OP has paid for the car
> ...


Who paid for the tax, insurance and petrol. Would help in the ownership game.  However before we go down that rocky road there’s  an old expression, possession is nine tenths of the law....


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## fangs (18 Jun 2020)

Bronte said:


> There’s a famous song from the movies Frozen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for effort in responding Bronte but I’m Not looking for life advice, just a straight forward legal opinion if anyone on this site has had a similar experience. I’m not motivated by revenge or pettiness, for me it’s just a matter of right and wrong and settling our affairs before we permanently part ways. If the advice is I have no legal standing then so be it, but as I suspect, the person that paid for the car is the owner then I will pursue that.  I’m in process of getting legal advice, but just wanted to try the amicable approach first.


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## fangs (18 Jun 2020)

fangs said:


> Thanks for effort in responding Bronte but I’m Not looking for life advice, just a straight forward legal opinion if anyone on this site has had a similar experience. I’m not motivated by revenge or pettiness, for me it’s just a matter of right and wrong and settling our affairs before we permanently part ways. If the advice is I have no legal standing then so be it, but as I suspect, the person that paid for the car is the owner then I will pursue that.  I’m in process of getting legal advice, but just wanted to try the amicable approach first.





Bronte said:


> Who paid for the tax, insurance and petrol. Would help in the ownership game.  However before we go down that rocky road there’s  an old expression, possession is nine tenths of the law....


Tax, insurance by parther, petrol was shared depending on who drove. But all of the above would not impact car value, there was no maintenance on car which would be the only exception. I take your point on possession, but that’s what court orders are for.


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## fangs (18 Jun 2020)

To everyone that responded constructively, a serious thank you.  This site is a great resource. Whenthis all plays out I will update thread on the facts of the matter so others may benefit going forward. Please continue to add to the thread if you have some experience or knowledge in this area.


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## Leper (18 Jun 2020)

Hi Fangs, I know you're not looking for life advice and you are interested merely in legal advice. The car is depreciating in value every day just like your relationship but if you are willing to pay more (as for legal advice) your costs will appreciate. 

The whole thing is costing you, but you've earned some huge lessons and at less cost than you now think. I'd advise:- Quit while you're a little behind because if you don't you could find yourself much behind.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (18 Jun 2020)

I don't know how lines of communication are, and how spiteful you are both feeling.

But the cheapest way of settling this would be for one to buy the other out.

This needs both of you to negotiate, but will probably be cheaper than going to court.


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## fangs (21 Jul 2020)

Just to bring this thread to a conclusion and to offer advise for those in future who may find themselves in my situation....Today I successfully received my car back .  Some advice below on how I think this was achieved, there was a mixture of carrot and stick as you'll see.

1. First mistake was not necessarily registering car in partners name, it was not agreeing in writing up front what to do in the event of a breakup.  All couples think they will last forever so often this step is ignored.  Another alternative, is to sign the logbook transfer of ownership form and retain ownership of the logbook along with payment receipts.  
2. There is no definitive legal status on the 'legal owner' between the person who bought the car and the registered owner - according to my solicitor.  If it went to the district court (only applicable for claims <15k), then it pretty much is a Judge Judy situation.  Worse case if you lose here and have to pay partners legal costs would be €2-4k.  Factors like who paid for maintenance, who drove the car, can it be demonstrated the car was or was not a gift come to bear.
3. The advise provided by *lughildanach (thank you) on CAT *was very useful. It was a cost not considered by my ex, and helped to tip the balance in my favour I think.
4. I maintained a very civil discourse, one email / text a week so its not badgering but you're letting her know that this wont go away and can't be ignored.  I stuck to moral and rational arguments (I paid for it, we shared the car, I never said it was a gift, this isn't like you etc...) and avoided any derogatory or threatening language (it does help to think along lines of anything you write could be used in evidence).  It obviously did help that the break-up was not overly fractuous, this is the variable which will depend on individual circumstances.
5. I did finally threaten that I would reluctantly go to the district court and would do whatever it took to seek the return of the car.  This was in the knowledge my partner wouldn't have the will power or means to cover legal costs...I could gamble she could not.  This was only mentioned after I felt we had exhausted all other options.  It was only after I mentioned this that she finally agreed to return the car.
6. From start to end it was about 7 weeks.  So maybe allowing some time to pass and emotions to settle allows reason to surface also.

Thanks to all for you help and hopefully someone else will find this useful.


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## Gordon Gekko (21 Jul 2020)

There is no worthwhile guidance in there at all. There wouldn’t have been any CAT. Your solicitor doesn’t seem to know the difference between “legal ownership” and “beneficial ownership”, which is very odd. You essentially bullied and threatened this person into submission, behaviour I don’t think should be condoned.


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## mathepac (21 Jul 2020)

@Gordon Gekko the differentiation is between "registered ownership"  and "beneficial ownership". I congratulate OP on resolving the issue simply by resorting to law, every citizen's right.

Well done @fangs, I'm delighted with the outcome for you.


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## Gordon Gekko (21 Jul 2020)

mathepac said:


> @Gordon Gekko the differentiation is between "registered ownership"  and "beneficial ownership". I congratulate OP on resolving the issue simply by resorting to law, every citizen's right.
> 
> Well done @fangs, I'm delighted with the outcome for you.



Yes, registered owner being “legal owner” and beneficial owner being “owner owner”. And the OP didn’t “resort to law”; do people read posts or threads at all?


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## fangs (21 Jul 2020)

mathepac said:


> @Gordon Gekko the differentiation is between "registered ownership"  and "beneficial ownership". I congratulate OP on resolving the issue simply by resorting to law, every citizen's right.
> 
> Well done @fangs, I'm delighted with the outcome for you.


Thanks Mathepac, I suppose another key bit of advice is to keep things civil despite any provacation and try and avoid this scenario in the first place!


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## Gordon Gekko (21 Jul 2020)

fangs said:


> Surprised at this trolling TBH, I wont be responding to your posts.



How is it trolling? You said there’d be CAT implications when there would clearly be none, a fact that was pointed out to you previously (by me).

You have essentially harrassed and threatened the poor woman into submission using your deeper pockets as leverage.

Reprehensible behaviour in my view.


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## fangs (21 Jul 2020)

Gordon Gekko said:


> How is it trolling? You said there’d be CAT implications when there would clearly be none, a fact that was pointed out to you previously (by me).
> 
> You have essentially harrassed and threatened the poor woman into submission using your deeper pockets as leverage.
> 
> Reprehensible behaviour in my view.


Only responding on the matter of CAT, which you are entitled to respond on and is a valid challenge.  However, your judgement on harrassment is ill informed and unnecessary- you do not know the context or who did what to whom.  Keep these opinions to yourself please.  

From the Revenue website.

*What do you pay CAT on?*

Some items regarded as a gift or inheritance include:

cash
jewellery or a car
house or lands
stocks and shares
the use of a property for free, or for less than it is
worth
an interest free loan
a life interest or a right of residence in a property.

My ex partners claim on the car was that it was a gift from me to her (I paid for the car).  She was not my spouse or civil partner. Hence CAT applies no?


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## Gordon Gekko (21 Jul 2020)

fangs said:


> Only responding on the matter of CAT, which you are entitled to respond on and is a valid challenge.  However, your judgement on harrassment is ill informed and unnecessary- you do not know the context or who did what to whom.  Keep these opinions to yourself please.
> 
> From the Revenue website.
> 
> ...



The first €3k of value is exempt.

A stranger can receive a further €16,250 tax free from another stranger.

It’s called the “Group C Threshold”.

I posted that earlier in the thread.


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## Gordon Gekko (21 Jul 2020)

fangs said:


> The advise provided by *lughildanach (thank you) on CAT *was very useful. It was a cost not considered by my ex, and helped to tip the balance in my favour I think.
> 
> I did finally threaten that I would reluctantly go to the district court and would do whatever it took to seek the return of the car. This was in the knowledge my partner wouldn't have the will power or means to cover legal costs...I could gamble she could not. This was only mentioned after I felt we had exhausted all other options. It was only after I mentioned this that she finally agreed to return the car



- The narrative that you presented to her in relation to CAT was bogus
- You threatened her and took advantage of your superior financial means

It’s just my view, but I don’t think you have covered yourself in glory here.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Jul 2020)

This thread has clearly reached its conclusion


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