# M/ment Company's Additional Charges



## KAZZA (6 Nov 2009)

Dont know if anybody else is being charged by their management company for services that have not been carried out. I have being living in my duplex for the last 3 years and they are charging for cleaning of windows and gutters which has never been done in the 3 years. Am i within my rights to not pay until this has been rectified. I have got on to the company but they just keep telling me it will be done this week and doesnt respond when i ask about the last 3 years?


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## markpb (6 Nov 2009)

A lot of management companies have to cut back on less critical services because of lack of money. Normally it's caused by people (or the developer) not paying their service charges but it can also happen when there's a large unforeseen expenditure items (broken gates, fire repairs, etc). It's annoying but it's hard to avoid. 

AFAIK you're definitely not entitled to withhold payment, you'll be the cause of more services being cut back and they'll just end up bringing you to court over it.


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## KAZZA (6 Nov 2009)

I have always paid my charges but they have gotten away with charging for this service for 3 years and not providing it. Its the old irish thing of saying nothing and just paying up and not asking any questions. Surely the least they have to do is complete the services they are charging for? Nobody else would pay for a service they are not getting so why is this any different?


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## markpb (6 Nov 2009)

KAZZA said:


> Surely the least they have to do is complete the services they are charging for?



If there's no money to pay for those services, how do they provide them?


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## purpeller (6 Nov 2009)

It's the same old story.  They may be using a budget that wasn't calculated properly or possibly they've cut back on the non-essentials.  The only way to have a say is to get involved and ensure they are doing what they should.  Is there a residents committee to get involved with?


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## KAZZA (6 Nov 2009)

I have been told by the agent that there is a surplus of money which will be carried over to next year so if they had the money why wasnt the service provided?


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## markpb (6 Nov 2009)

That is odd. Like purpeller says, the best bet is to join the RA or the board of directors (if you can) and sort it out.


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## ontour (6 Nov 2009)

Have you asked this question at the AGM?  By comparing the budget for the year against the accounts for the year you should be able to see if the funds budgeted for window and gutter cleaning were spent elsewhere.


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## so-crates (6 Nov 2009)

KAZZA have you been asking the management *company* or the management *agent*? The company is the owner of the complex, all property leaseholders (owners) in the complex are part of the company. By the sounds of it, this includes you. The agent is an outside firm that may be contracted by the company to manage the day-to-day running of the complex. If it is the agent that you are talking about then I would suggest that your company looks into engaging a new agent or at least threatening to do so unless service improves.

The "money carried over" is that money in the sinking fund? In which case it is not carried over, it is for long term expenses.


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## shesells (9 Nov 2009)

Are you sure it's not being done? Most window cleaning companies won't do windows off balconies which means all your windows might not be done but that doesn't mean that window cleaning isn't going on in your development. 


We used to only get 2 windows of our 14 done but the management agent found a company that do balconies and now we get them all cleaned, only once a year though.


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## orionstar21 (10 Nov 2009)

Management Agents and Companies are the most ingenious scam ever to grace the property market.  Its a racket from start to finish and these guys done their homework.  The government dont regulate them becuase they put them there so that the local councils dont have to pay for them (out of your tax money) so you pay twice.  Its really impressive.  You are part of a company and if you dont fund your company your agent will take you to court.  Not sure if it is precidented but you could technically loose your property to pay the arrears on your fee.  The agent NEVER looses.  Depending on your contract, most apartment owners actually own sweet FA.  You dont own the land nore the building, you only own the air that travels between the excuses for walls.  You will have to pay this.  I stopped paying it for 4 years in an effort to get people to boycott this.  But instead the residence turned on me for not paying it.  I revoked payment for neglected services but it doesn't mean anything, you still have to pay. Worse mistake I ever done buying an apartment, they have you over a barrell.  When I sell this place I will get a solid house.  If someone were to offer me an apartment for free I'd cut my two arms off before even considering taking one.  Also, isnt' it amazing that anything that can go wrong does go wrong and for some mad reason you have to pay for it because its behind your front door...... If something goes wrong outside your fee increases to pay for whatever happened...  Your gonna have to pay it my dear friend, aint no way out.  The only advice I can give you about any situation that life throws at you, 3 options and 3 only, accept it, change it or remove yourself from it.  I know what I'm doing.


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## purpeller (10 Nov 2009)

That's not a helpful reply.  We all know that the management company structure is far from perfect.  Legislation has been passed to try and rectify the system.  It's all too easy to say "I'm witholding my fees in protest for bad service".  Don't forget, every apartment owner has signed a lease that says they must pay their fees.  It's hardly a surprise that a judge will find in favour of a management company when they can produce a document signed by the owner saying "I will pay my fees".  It's usually because people aren't paying that services are not what they should be - though I do admit there's a lot of bad agents out there.

I don't know why more people aren't willing to get involved.  I did.  It doesn't take up a lot of time and I have the satisfaction of knowing that I'm contributing to my community, helping to make it a better place and if something does go wrong, the fact that I've paid my fees means dealing with the agent is much more pleasant.


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## orionstar21 (10 Nov 2009)

I understand its not a helpful reply but its honest, direct and completly true.  Im not a non-payer as I have a job but I feel for those who dont have a job, they will be chased by all sorts, debt collectors, banks and mangement agents. I always say, when will we stand up to this corrupt system, when your fees are 5k per year? 10K?,,.... you get the picture, I was trying to make a stance before then.  People will need to get used to seeing additional charges added to the mix alongside the list of services they are not gettting.  Also, when a management company doesn't have the funds to pay for the services surely there must be a reduction? I mean they are obviously not paying them but yet the bills are still there, makes no sense.


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## ontour (10 Nov 2009)

Orionstar21, you are portraying the scenario as a 'them and us' where you have no control over the service provided or the costs which in most cases is completely untrue.  A management agent is providing a service to the apartment owners, if you don't like the job they are doing fire them, get a better agent or manage the development yourselves.

If you owned a house and decided that you did not want to take out the bins, cut the grass, light the outside of the house, clean the hall & stairs, replace the front gate when broken etc., you would pay a lot of money every year to employ service providers to do these jobs.  If you then decided that you couldn't be bothered dealing with all of these people and wanted one person to manage everything, you could employ a management agent and pay them.  If someone who owned a house did this we would think that they were mad and were throwing money away by not doing some of these things themselves but when it comes to a managed development no one wants to do anything.  I think there is a fear that others will get the benefit for your efforts and they do nothing.

There is a scale of ensuring that something, such as window cleaning, is done.  It ranges from actively communicating with the managing agent to cleaning them yourself.  You will always get good and bad service providers, including managing agents and window cleaners.  Having good service providers is usually the result of research, a willingness to change, careful monitoring and a bit of luck !


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## orionstar21 (11 Nov 2009)

Ontour, it IS a them and us?! and it goes further than that.  I understand everyone has different points of view about this subject.  Its not as easy as switching a light switch to get a new management agent.  Esp in complex with over 500 residents.  

Your point on owning a house; "didnt want to do" the services listed above may be misleading.  I dont think its a case of people dont want to do this.  Its more about not being able to afford to do it .  It doesn't cost anything to keep your place clean and you can control and manage the costs yourself and you most certainly would pay someone to do it if you had financial problems if it was your house.  Agents dont look for the best quotes as they get commission, so the higher the quote for say block insurance the higher their commission.  I dont think the fear is about others getting more benifit, the fear is not being able to pay an unregulated industry to provide what is normally as poor service at a premium rate and if you dont pay it, well, your pretty much done for. Without straying too far from the thread topic, KAZZA was saying that he is still being charged for services that he/she is not getting.  And its true.  If the agent says there is not sufficient funds to do x then sure to god x must be removed from the bill!!!!  I have, and always will have a problem with this industry but I'm lucky as I still have a job and can pay my fees.  My only regret is for those who cant.  Other resdients who can pay turn on those who cant without knowing what goes on behind closed doors because they know that their investment/home will become compromised as a result of someone defaulting on their fees.  Regulation is the the key, regulation is what is needed with more protection for people who cant pay with added security for those who do and measures for those who blatantly wont!  The can, cants and wonts are three different breeds  but if your not getting something why should you pay for it?


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## round1 (11 Nov 2009)

Have you attended any AGM in the past three years?. I presume other residents must share your complaints.


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## purpeller (11 Nov 2009)

orionstar21 said:


> Im not a non-payer as I have a job but I feel for those who dont have a job, they will be chased by all sorts, debt collectors, banks and mangement agents



I don't understand this statement.  Regardless of your employment status, a management company should pursue non-payment of fees.  In my development, this year, court proceedings were issued against every owner who had arrears and not made arrangements to pay them.



orionstar21 said:


> I always say, when will we stand up to this corrupt system, when your fees are 5k per year? 10K?,,.... you get the picture, I was trying to make a stance before then. People will need to get used to seeing additional charges added to the mix alongside the list of services they are not gettting. Also, when a management company doesn't have the funds to pay for the services surely there must be a reduction? I mean they are obviously not paying them but yet the bills are still there, makes no sense.



You're missing the point - they don't have funds to pay for services because people are not paying their charges, which they agreed to pay in a legal document.

A reduction in charges can only happen if there surplus cash.  How could there ever be extra money if people withhold their service charge?

Each owner is of course entitled to see where and how this money is spent, both in a budget and then an annual report.  If you don't get these things, get involved, change the agent, make things better.  Don't presume someone else will do it, or worse, that no one will do and that you have some sort of moral right to ignore it.


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## orionstar21 (12 Nov 2009)

Purpeller



purpeller said:


> I don't understand this statement. Regardless of your employment status, a management company should pursue non-payment of fees. In my development, this year, court proceedings were issued against every owner who had arrears and not made arrangements to pay them.
> .


 
Lets try keep this as diplomatic as possible 

Do you mean your the developer/agent or are you speaking from a member of the management company (resident). In our place (I'm a resident), draft court procedings were issued to the district court but I suppose your right. It doesnt matter about your employment status. I think its best to reposess the house and fling a family onto the streets in order for the management company to survive. Lets call a spade a spade here people are not paying for three main reasons and 3 reasons only 
1-they are being legally robbed. I dont care who you are or what you say, how you bend and shape it, people are being robbed. End of Story, FULL STOP. You even feel robbed when you pay it.
2-The Agent is not doing their job. As they are untouchable they dont really care, they'll get paid anyway.
3-they dont have it, why because of their employment status which 
influences the financial abiltiy to pay. How can you write down regardless of anyones employment status? How do you expect them to pay?



purpeller said:


> You're missing the point - they don't have funds to pay for services because people are not paying their charges, which they agreed to pay in a legal document.
> .


 
I dont believe I am missing any point. The legal document that you refer to is as comprehensible as the old testament written by a left handed two year old in Hebrew. I couldn't understand a word of it. Why? Because they dont want you to, simple. Were not idiots, we are being exploited. 
Kazzaa wasnt saying they dont have funds to pay for services, he's saying that he is paying for services that are not being done.



purpeller said:


> A reduction in charges can only happen if there surplus cash. How could there ever be extra money if people withhold their service charge?
> .


 
I disagree, ther are plenty of reductions that can be made to CREATE a surplus of cash in the sinking fund. Energy saving light bulbs, lights that only come on with sensors, Solar, shop around for cheaper block insurance, shop around for a cheaper window cleaner,gardner, security lift repair service, gates maintenance contracts, switch from ESB to AirTricity etc.. Apartment blocks have devalued so the insurance must reflect that I think. But this is only if the agent is bothered but I suppose its just easier to harrass the residence and put their feet up.



purpeller said:


> Each owner is of course entitled to see where and how this money is spent, both in a budget and then an annual report. If you don't get these things, get involved, change the agent, make things better. Don't presume someone else will do it, or worse, that no one will do and that you have some sort of moral right to ignore it.


 
Keeping this conversation smooth I will have to say that this part really grinds my gears. People are to pay a fee then get involved and clean their own windows, cut their own grass. In our complex our fees are up to 1700 p.a and the residents are going around fitting light bulbs supplied by the agent. Call me old fashioned but I know when someone is taking the complete proverbial.

I think the only solution problem is either for the entire country to bycott this reacket or for the government to step in and help regulate it. Because if nothing happens the laws of the universe will kick in, something will snap. You will have many serious confrontations with the; can, cants and wont payers.....

Apartments/management companies and agents are all ticking timb bombs, but why should I even care, I have a job, I can pay my fees. Because I do care about my fellow cititzens who cant and to some extent, those who wont as they know there is a saddle being thrown on them.

I'd like to conclude that these are my views and opinions and I mean no direct attack on you or your opinion.


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## mf1 (12 Nov 2009)

"Keeping this conversation smooth I will have to say that this part really grinds my gears. People are to pay a fee then get involved and clean their own windows, cut their own grass. In our complex our fees are up to 1700 p.a and the residents are going around fitting light bulbs supplied by the agent. Call me old fashioned but I know when someone is taking the complete proverbial.

I think the only solution problem is either for the entire country to bycott this reacket or for the government to step in and help regulate it. Because if nothing happens the laws of the universe will kick in, something will snap. You will have many serious confrontations with the; can, cants and wont payers.....

Apartments/management companies and agents are all ticking timb bombs, but why should I even care, I have a job, I can pay my fees. Because I do care about my fellow cititzens who cant and to some extent, those who wont as they know there is a saddle being thrown on them.

I'd like to conclude that these are my views and opinions and I mean no direct attack on you or your opinion."

You are being selective in your response. purpeller made this excellent suggestion:

"Each owner is of course entitled to see where and how this money is spent, both in a budget and then an annual report. If you don't get these things, get involved, change the agent, make things better."

And the Lease you signed, while long is a standard lease, and perfectly comprehensible if you take the trouble to read it,  which sets out your obligations and the obligations of the Management Company. You can become an active ( rather than a passive) member of the Management Company and take an active role   in the running of your own Management Company and that includes employing the managing agent and taking an active interest in the services that are provided.

mf


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## orionstar21 (12 Nov 2009)

MF1/Purpellor

We'll see what happens then over the next year maybe two.....  Both of you are in denial that this is a ticking timebomb and it does not need to be addressed at government levels.  I agree if the residents were organised they could achieve great things but in complexes that have over 500 people ..... they have the populations of small towns unto themselves.

Just to point out this is not my thread, I'm adding to it whilst trying not to stray off what the topic that the agent is adding additional charges or charging for services that have not been provided.  Indeed if the residents were organised they might be able to do something but I dont think all are.  Our complex is getting there after 4 years with two members on the board and a very much active residents committee.  My thoughts are with those who are struggling with mortgages and now management fees.


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## purpeller (12 Nov 2009)

You say there's no direct attack, yet you dissect my opinions?!  I'm speaking as the director of a management company, who became a director after setting up a committee and engaging a new managing agent because my building was not in good shape and vastly in debt because people wouldn't pay their fees as well as a legacy of bad managing agents.

"I disagree, ther are plenty of reductions that can be made to CREATE a surplus of cash in the sinking fund. Energy saving light bulbs, lights that only come on with sensors, Solar, shop around for cheaper block insurance, shop around for a cheaper window cleaner,gardner, security lift repair service, gates maintenance contracts, switch from ESB to AirTricity etc.. Apartment blocks have devalued so the insurance must reflect that I think. But this is only if the agent is bothered but I suppose its just easier to harrass the residence and put their feet up."

As you say, these things will only be done if you have a decent management agent in place.  But even a good agent needs to be managed themselves.  Hence the essential involvement of owners and active directors.


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## orionstar21 (12 Nov 2009)

My apologies Purpeller, I ment only to respond to certain parts of your previous post.  If you were a resident and became THE director then fair play.  My point is not all complexes have people like yourself.  You might make a few quid and a lot of people happy if you set up a workshop and offer people guidence in this area as I dont think there is a course out there to learn this type of thing,,... now theres an idea, iIts an area which could be tapped.  I agree you need to keep the agents on their toes and be more involved.


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## Manage - ClC (18 Nov 2009)

It may have been budgeted for but the money probably went to something more important...remember the money you pay goes directly into your own management company account and not the agents account. Any money you pay goes towards something under the budget, does your block have neighbours with a history of non payment? are their unsold units? i ask this as budgets are drafted every year on the basis of full occupancy and everyone paying their service charge if this is not happening there will be a shortfall in income and more important contractors must be paid with the income received.


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## orionstar21 (19 Nov 2009)

Mamage - CIC
Not true, the management agent takes their cut first.  Whats left goes to the management company.  They then pay the creditors/contractors which are shelf companies of the agent.  They will pay their own shelf companies first too.  Its a complete sham.


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## mf1 (19 Nov 2009)

orionstar21 said:


> Mamage - CIC
> Not true, the management agent takes their cut first.  Whats left goes to the management company.  They then pay the creditors/contractors which are shelf companies of the agent.  They will pay their own shelf companies first too.  Its a complete sham.



This is a nonsense post. 

mf


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## orionstar21 (19 Nov 2009)

mf1

Can you backup that lame coment? I can guarantee that its not nonsense.  Our agent is our cleaners, is our grass cutter and more....  Perhaps your a mangement agent or rep?


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## mf1 (19 Nov 2009)

orionstar21 said:


> mf1
> 
> Can you backup that lame coment? I can guarantee that its not nonsense.  Our agent is our cleaners, is our grass cutter and more....  Perhaps your a mangement agent or rep?



See post Number 19 above. 

Get involved and change things. Your particular situation is not wholly representative of Management Companies. 

mf


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## orionstar21 (19 Nov 2009)

Are you an agent mf1

The reason I ask is causing me to raise an eyebrow.  Every time I take a bus/train walk the streets, listen to people in public places, words of mouth, radio broadcasts, passing strangers, EVERYONE says that this system is a rip off.  HOWEVER, everytime I post something on askaboutmoney nearly everyone replies advocating their existance.  Time will tell.


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## mf1 (19 Nov 2009)

"Are you an agent mf1"

The expression "oh, for goodness sake!" springs to mind. You are simply trolling at this stage as you patently will not read or respond to any of the posts that make sensible suggestions as to how to deal with your own particular situation. 

mf


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## orionstar21 (20 Nov 2009)

time will tell


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## markpb (20 Nov 2009)

orionstar21 said:


> time will tell



There have been apartments and management companies in Ireland for almost 40 years.


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