# House freezing - how can I make best use of gas central heating system?



## AnnieC (6 Jan 2009)

Hi All,

Apologies if this comes across as the most clueless question ever but I'm freezing!

My 3-bed house has gas central heating which also provides the hot water and I can't seem to keep the house warm at all as soon as the heat is turned off and I need help as I've zero knowledge of how the system works!
I have the thermostat set to 30 degrees celsius, the heat is set to come on at 4am-7am in order for us to have hot water for showers first thing and also to heat the house before we get up. It then is set for 3pm-5pm again so that there is enough hot water to give my little girl a bath before bed (every second night) and that the house is warm for when I come home from work/daughter home from creche.  This works fine on the days that we're out of the house during the day but not on the days we're at home (I jobshare).

Basically my main question is, is it possible to have the heat on constantly at a lower setting on the thermostat so that the house is warm all day rather than freezing between 7am and 3pm without having massive gas bills?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks 

AnnieC


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## Caveat (6 Jan 2009)

AnnieC said:


> Basically my main question is, is it possible to have the heat on constantly at a lower setting on the thermostat so that the house is warm all day rather than freezing between 7am and 3pm without having massive gas bills?


 
Yes.

30C is very high. If you set the thermostat at 21 or even 22 you could leave the heating on much longer without a huge cost increase. The problem may the the long periods where there is no heat at all - from your post this looks like from 5pm until 7am and then from 7am until 3? 

I don't think many houses would have a chance to warm up properly with gaps like this. You might find that e.g. half an hour on, half an hour off over 6 hours can work better than 'constant' for 3 hours.


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## johnjoda (6 Jan 2009)

Hi, there should be a manual over-ride switch on the boiler timer, usually (1) off (2) timer (3) constant
set the switch to constant or 24 hr and switch back to timer mode as you please. If you find it too warm just turn the room thermostat down a little.
hope that helps


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## sydthebeat (6 Jan 2009)

how have you the stat set at 30? is the stat in a room or on the boiler??
If its a room thermostat it shouldnt be set above 21-22...

central heating pipes usually work in the range or 50-90... at the higher temps during colder weather.

Is your house a timber frame?? how old is it?

You need to do everything you can to keep heat in...
these measures span from free to high cost

free and low cost measures would include: 
1. checking all draught stripping around windows / doors to make sure they are working properly
2. draught strip the attic hatch, and put a hinge and put a bolt lock on it (an attic hatch is basically a huge hole in your insulation!! If possible stick some polystyrene over it
3. check all points at which pipes enter and exit your outer walls. If there are gaps around these pipes, fill them with filler.
4. check around windows and doors for draughts. especially check under window boards... fill all these gaps with caulk filler.
5. always draw curtains if any!

medium costing measures:
1. purchase more quilted insulation and lay it up in the attic
2. put heavier curtains on windows and always draw them at nighttime!


if you continue with the way things are, the ONLY way you can keep the house heated is to turn the heating on constant.


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## AnnieC (6 Jan 2009)

Thanks so much for all the prompt replies guys.  To answer your questions, Sydthebeat - 

The thermostat is in our hallway downstairs.  We found out (the hard way!) that if the thermostat is between 21-22 degrees, on a warmer morning the water wouldn't be hot enough if at all!  Doesn't apply at the moment though I know!  The house is about 10 years old, I honestly don't know if it's a timber frame but I doubt it. I'm in Lucan, Dublin a 3-bed semi-detached if that's any help.

Thanks for those suggestions, my weekend will be busy as will the DIY shops!! 

Caveat, I'll give your suggestion a go for now and see how I get on with the lower temps during the day for longer.  I just really am stuck as I genuinely can't afford an increase in gas bills (like most people nowadays) but on the other side looking after my little girl is more important to me.


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## davidoco (6 Jan 2009)

Get yourself a table mounted thermostat so that you get an idea how warm your house is, between 19 and 21 does most people but there are complete energy wasters out there with the house at 24 and 25.

You should be able to keep the heating on with the thermostat at say 20 for the day without running up huge bills.

You may also wish to consider some of the draft proofing and attic insulation threads if your heating needs to come on at 4am for a 7 am start.

Also remember that this is a very cold snap and every householder has to adjust their heating to take account of that as in general we get mild even winters - of course those of us with programmable room stats with optimum start get the real benefits.


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## sydthebeat (6 Jan 2009)

annie, there should be another thermostat somewhere for the hot water.. im not a plumber so i dont know the standard, but my gas boiler at home has a thermostat at the boiler that spans between 40-80 (i think).. this is for hot water alone. I have no room thermostats, but i do have TRVs in the kitch and living room (these are controllable valves on the rads that allow 4 settings, off, low medium and high temp.)

Is there a thermostat on your hot water cylinder?


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## davidoco (6 Jan 2009)

a 10 year old estate house is  unlikely to have a stat on the cylinder.  Just a wheel valve to balance system. Stat in hall would still turn off heating


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## BillK (6 Jan 2009)

our hall stat is set at 17 which keeps the living areas comfortably warm; mind you, our house is *very* well insulated. We have a combi boiler so water heating is independent of space heating.


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## Jane Doe (6 Jan 2009)

davidoco said:


> You should be able to keep the heating on with the thermostat at say 20 for the day without running up huge bills.


do you mean the thermostat on the boiler at 20 and on all day? I have this problem too. My house is very cold and will warm up but when the heat is off it goes down to 10 degrees. It is a new house but does not have thermostat in hall so i would have to leave it on at boiler long periods


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## dub_nerd (6 Jan 2009)

Not having a separate pump/switch for your water is a real pain. Still, setting a room thermostat at 30C sounds excessive. Get an accurate thermometer so that you know when the thermostat needs to be turned up to keep the heating running for your water. Basically, use the thermostat as a switch when you need water. You do NOT need heating on from 4am-7am to heat water ... depends on size of hot water tank and wattage of boiler, but I doubt more than half an hour is required. If you are also turning on for space heating, 30C is too high. The rate of energy loss through your windows and walls is proportional to the difference between inside and outside temperature. Periods of high temperature interspersed with no heating are less efficient than maintaining a constant temp.


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## davidoco (6 Jan 2009)

Jane Doe said:


> do you mean the thermostat on the boiler at 20 and on all day? I have this problem too. My house is very cold and will warm up but when the heat is off it goes down to 10 degrees. It is a new house but does not have thermostat in hall so i would have to leave it on at boiler long periods



You will have to give the make and model of your boiler but most thermostats on a boiler would only give a reading of the temperature of the actual water in the pipes not the air temperature, although it could be connected to a remote stat somewhere.  In any event the temp at the boiler would be between 55 and 75 at least.

You need to consider how in the name of God a new house built to even the most basic standard with the worst craftmanship would drop to 10 degrees. Are you taking that from a reading on the boiler or a normal thermostat.


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## Jane Doe (7 Jan 2009)

> Are you taking that from a reading on the boiler or a normal thermostat.


no from a room thermometer


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## Caveat (7 Jan 2009)

Jane Doe said:


> room thermometer


 
Unless it's a reasonable spec. one, it could well be inaccurate to the tune of +/- 5 C or so.


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## jimbobman (7 Jan 2009)

just out of curiosity. what tempreature should your hot tank be at. i checked mine and it was at 70. i turned it down to 50 last nite


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## suzie (7 Jan 2009)

I'm no expert, but its all relative really. For example where is the stat attached to the tank? 2/3 down from the top or 1/2 etc. The hottest water will be at the top, so with a constant stat temp, the further you go down the hotter the water will be at the top, so its really just a case of adjusting the stat so that when theres no need to heat anymore, you have an adequate amount of you desired water temp coming out of the taps (i.e kitchen sink).

I've always been told to have the stat 2/3 of the way down...

S.


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## huskerdu (7 Jan 2009)

The fact that you aee heating the whole hpuse from 4am to 7am when you are all in bed in order to have a hot shower is an complete waste of money. 

does it really take 3 hours to heat the tank ?
I assume you have a well lagged tank. If not, solve this immediately. 

Have you considered getting an immersion heater installed. 
If the central heating is not heating the water hot enough, it only takes about 15 minutes for the immersion to finish the job. This would be much more cost effective. 

Then you could turn the termostat down to a reasonable 21 and leave it on for longer and when you are in the house.


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## mrsmonypenny (7 Jan 2009)

I have exactly the same problem with my house...its a nightmare, and the bill do be sky high! I've started just leaving the gas on for an hour or so just to heat the water, and then light the fire, and put a small heater into my sons room for half an hour before he goes to bed just to heat the room up. No matter what way i run the gas, the bills are astronomical!


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## sydthebeat (7 Jan 2009)

what do you mean astronomical?

i live in a 1000 sq ft 3 bed semi.... built around 2004.

the house has 6 persons, 4 kids 2 adults.....

my gas bills are in the range on 60-80 bi monthly during warmer periods, and around 100-120 during winter period.....


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## Jane Doe (7 Jan 2009)

Caveat said:


> Unless it's a reasonable spec. one, it could well be inaccurate to the tune of +/- 5 C or so.


costv 6 euro? Could you recommend a good one? Thanks


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## AnnieC (7 Jan 2009)

davidoco said:


> Get yourself a table mounted thermostat so that you get an idea how warm your house is, between 19 and 21 does most people but there are complete energy wasters out there with the house at 24 and 25.
> 
> You should be able to keep the heating on with the thermostat at say 20 for the day without running up huge bills.
> 
> ...


 

Hi again everyone,

Seems like I'm not the only one with a cold house!  I did as advised and had the heating on from 8am this morning with the thermostat at 20 degrees and there definitely is an improvement without a doubt so as long as the bill isn't astronomical then this will be the way to go for us!

I have a room thermometer in my little girl's room and what shocked me this morning (after 3 hours of heating) was that it read 14.5 degrees!  



sydthebeat said:


> annie, there should be another thermostat somewhere for the hot water.. im not a plumber so i dont know the standard, but my gas boiler at home has a thermostat at the boiler that spans between 40-80 (i think).. this is for hot water alone. I have no room thermostats, but i do have TRVs in the kitch and living room (these are controllable valves on the rads that allow 4 settings, off, low medium and high temp.)
> 
> Is there a thermostat on your hot water cylinder?


 
I don't have a thermostat on the hot water cylinder no.



dub_nerd said:


> Not having a separate pump/switch for your water is a real pain. Still, setting a room thermostat at 30C sounds excessive. Get an accurate thermometer so that you know when the thermostat needs to be turned up to keep the heating running for your water. Basically, use the thermostat as a switch when you need water. You do NOT need heating on from 4am-7am to heat water ... depends on size of hot water tank and wattage of boiler, but I doubt more than half an hour is required. If you are also turning on for space heating, 30C is too high. The rate of energy loss through your windows and walls is proportional to the difference between inside and outside temperature. Periods of high temperature interspersed with no heating are less efficient than maintaining a constant temp.


 
Dubnerd, there's no way a half hour would heat the water enough for two showers.  Even if I need to have a shower during the day or wash my hair I need to put the water on for at least 2 hours.  Of course this is during the weather we have a moment which is doing nothing to help!  



huskerdu said:


> The fact that you aee heating the whole hpuse from 4am to 7am when you are all in bed in order to have a hot shower is an complete waste of money.
> 
> does it really take 3 hours to heat the tank ?
> I assume you have a well lagged tank. If not, solve this immediately.
> ...


 

Huskerdu,
I completely agree that we are essentially wasting both money and energy by having the water on for three hours in the morning but unfortunately our water tank is linked to our heating and there's no other way around this as our situation is at the moment.  In the summer we simply switch off the heaters and the water heats up when the boiler comes on which is so handy and cheaper!!  Our tank is very well lagged as we got it done when we first moved in about 3 years ago.  

How much would an immersion heater cost to buy and have installed does anyone know?  We don't have the money for it at the moment but it could be something we could do in the future as I'm very conscious of the energy wastage.  

Thanks again to everyone for replying, it's very reassuring to know I'm not just a freak who's cold all the time!


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## Caveat (7 Jan 2009)

Jane Doe said:


> costv 6 euro? Could you recommend a good one? Thanks


 
Just try googling - there are hundreds out there.

Accuracy should be stated - something with around +/- 0.5C tolerance should cost from €50 - €80. Something with +/- 1C (which might be adequate) you could probably get for about €20.


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## Jane Doe (7 Jan 2009)

Caveat said:


> there are hundreds out there.


 i know but what is reasonable spec is what i did not know



> Accuracy should be stated - something with around +/- 0.5C tolerance should cost from €50 - €80. Something with +/- 1C (which might be adequate) you could probably get for about €20.


that is good thanks


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## Jane Doe (7 Jan 2009)

AnnieC said:


> I did as advised and had the heating on from 8am this morning with the thermostat at 20 degrees


 do you mean the thermostat on the boiler?


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## AnnieC (7 Jan 2009)

Jane Doe said:


> do you mean the thermostat on the boiler?


 
Hi JaneDoe,
No, the thermostat in the hallway downstairs.


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## Jane Doe (7 Jan 2009)

Hi AnnieC





AnnieC said:


> Hi JaneDoe,
> No, the thermostat in the hallway downstairs.


oh i see i do not have a stat in the hall. Does that mean the boiler is on all the time or the stat turns on boiler when needed to keep the heat constant

Thanks


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## AnnieC (7 Jan 2009)

As far as I can tell (I really should check this out!) once the boiler reaches the temp on the thermostat it clicks off until it drops below 20 degrees and then comes on again but I'm not 100%.  Sounds like it's clicking on and off though if you get me?

Sorry I'm not being very clear, I need a degree in plumberage!!


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## Jane Doe (7 Jan 2009)

AnnieC said:


> As far as I can tell (I really should check this out!) once the boiler reaches the temp on the thermostat it clicks off until it drops below 20 degrees and then comes on again but I'm not 100%.


Thanks AnnieC that is what I mean. That is what i want .


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## Jane Doe (7 Jan 2009)

Maybe I should start a new thread? Mod move if need.

I want someone to fit a thermostat in my house to keep the heat constant. I have a thermostat on the boiler but not on the wall. I presume the one on the boiler is called a thermostat

The rads can be turned up or down manually.

What i want is a stat  that i can program to keep the house at a pre determined temp OK? So it will turn on the boiler heat as needed to top up and then turn off. My electric cooker does this. How much would it cost? is it electrician or plumber or both?Is there any company i could call

I apologise if I have not given enough detail. I have not a clue.Please ask if more needed


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## davidoco (7 Jan 2009)

AnnieC said:


> as long as the bill isn't astronomical then this will be the way to go for us!


 
If you know where your meter is take a reading tonight off ALL the numbers before you go to bed.  Take another reading just before 9 in the morning, and if you are there all day take another reading at 5, then again at the end of the night.  Do this for a couple of days, including the weekend and post the results and I'll describe how to interpret them.



AnnieC said:


> I have a room thermometer in my little girl's room and what shocked me this morning (after 3 hours of heating) was that it read 14.5 degrees!


 
Is she in what you might call the box room with two outside walls and a large window.  These rooms which are usually over a hallway do suffer the most and they get very little gain during the evening from a room underneath.  But 14.5 this morning after 3 hours really is not on, you might consider getting a small oil filled radiator which you can set at a very low setting to keep that room at least up around 17 or 18 during the night.


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## Jane Doe (7 Jan 2009)

> you might consider getting a small oil filled radiator


Annie C there is one in Lidl next monday


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## AnnieC (7 Jan 2009)

davidoco said:


> If you know where your meter is take a reading tonight off ALL the numbers before you go to bed. Take another reading just before 9 in the morning, and if you are there all day take another reading at 5, then again at the end of the night. Do this for a couple of days, including the weekend and post the results and I'll describe how to interpret them.
> 
> Is she in what you might call the box room with two outside walls and a large window. These rooms which are usually over a hallway do suffer the most and they get very little gain during the evening from a room underneath. But 14.5 this morning after 3 hours really is not on, you might consider getting a small oil filled radiator which you can set at a very low setting to keep that room at least up around 17 or 18 during the night.


 
Hiya David,

I'm working tomorrow and Friday but will be off all weekend so I will take meter readings as you suggest and if you're sure you don't mind I will post the readings here.  It might be next week sometime before I get to post them if that's ok.  

She's in the front bedroom.  It is quite a large room with big windows but isn't over the hallway but you make a lot of sense in what you say regarding heat loss.  I'll look into getting a heater although I would be nervous leaving it on all night.



Jane Doe said:


> Annie C there is one in Lidl next monday


 
I know where I'll be headed on Monday so!  Thanks for the heads up Jane!


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## dundalkman (7 Jan 2009)

I know it's basic things but
1. You need to get rid of draughts.
2. Have you checked that your radiators heat fully if they don't heat all the way to the top you need to bleed them. Pretty easy job and all it requires is a bleeding key available in any hardware shop, or depending on type of radiator sometimes a flat head screwdriver will do the trick . 
It's possible that although your heating is running your not getting the most out of it if this is the case. 
3. Has your boiler been serviced annually if not I would recommend getting this done as it will improve efficiency and safety of the system not to mention the risk of being left cold when you need it most.

As regards the settings of thermostats which there seems to be confusion and conflicting settings.
1. The boiler should be set around 65-75 deg (mine is set at 70 deg) this setting will dictate the amount of time the rooms/hot water cylinder take to come up to temperature.
2. The room/wall thermostat should be set at 20-21 deg this will cut off the boiler when the rooms come up to temperature. (this setting will be individual to your house depending on where it is fitted hall/living room, close to a door/window, and height also plays a part in this) 
I changed my controls last year and can feel a real difference. Instead of the normal time clock I fitted a time control thermostat this is set to 20 degrees for day time and 18 for night and can also be easily over ridden if required.
As it takes more energy to heat from colder by not letting your house cool down you could in fact be more efficient. Look at it like pushing a full wheelbarrow or shopping trolley hard to get started but once your moving it drifts along.
Depending on occupancy habits of course these will be individual to your lifestyle. With controllable thermostats you have a few time settings to set as you require depending on needs. 
These are available in almost every DIY store, electrical or plumbing suppliers even e-bay but a bit pricey at €70 to €100 simple to fit (but as always make sure power removed before starting any work) they replace any thermostat with no extra wiring required and are even available as wireless (bit more expensive though) for those hard to get at places or where no thermostat has ever been fitted and you don't want surface wiring.


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## davidoco (8 Jan 2009)

For those people without a thermostat on their hot water cylinder (especially AnnieC) consider the following.

This is for people who feel that it takes forever to heat a cylinder of hot water and have no thermostat on the cylinder or seperate control at a clock for hot water.

Your boiler sends water out through one pipe.  Water in that pipe gets *diverted in two near the cylinder with one going to the radiators and one going through the hot water cylinder.  They both join up again after being through the cylinder and radiators respectively and go back to the boiler.  This is the heating/hot water circuit - one big loop.

The speed of flow of the water in this circuit needs to be balanced because if there is less resistance on either side after the diversion (at the cylinder) you will find cold rads and plenty of hot water or hot rads and no or little hot water.  This what I think is happening in your case, all the hot water in the circuit is going to your rads, hence having to turn up the thermostat to keep the water flowing so eventually you get heat in your cylinder.

If you have no experience of plumbing get someone out to look at that issue or if your up for it and want to start turning knobs and valves post a picture of your cylinder (there are hosting sites out there to which you can link a photo)


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## picassoman (12 Jan 2009)

Hi 

Got a smoke pen and found draughts under the window boards - is standard off the shelf caulk OK or is there a particular one I should use ?

- pm


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## sydthebeat (12 Jan 2009)

off the shelf is fine...

did you check all the junctions of ceilings and walls... and floors and walls???
usually around openings at where pipes enter the walls are the worst points...


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## picassoman (12 Jan 2009)

Thanks

Only checked a few spots so far - where waste pipe in en-suite exits there is also a draught. Too big of a hole for caulk - is expanding foam OK to close it up ?

Did notice one small black dot in corner of bedroom - did not think it was even a hole but when I checked could not believe the draught.

Also aorund the vents added to window after installation.

- pm


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## sydthebeat (12 Jan 2009)

expanding foam is actually air permeable... it will reduce the draught but it wont fix it. If the hole is too big for a caulk gun, try using fillers.. .these can be gotten in any merchants....


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## Effie (22 Jan 2009)

Hi Picassoman, can you let us know where you bought your smoke pen please? 

I have tried a few diy and builders providers for something like which you appear to have got your hands on, which will show me where the drafts are in my house but to no avail so far.


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## picassoman (23 Jan 2009)

[broken link removed]


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## Tiffy (23 Jan 2009)

Sydthebeat...just saw your post from earlier about your house sq footage, number of people in it and average bills. Yours are so so much lower than mine.  We have a 3 bed semi d also. probably around the same as yours. 2 adults, 2 cats, the odd spider and soon enough a baby living there and our latest bill was a staggering 230 Euro for 16 Oct to 23 Dec. We are by no means living in a sauna and the temp in the living room rarely exceeds 19 degrees.

We usually have the heating come in for half an hour in the mornings, and then between 3/4 to 6/7 in the evening. depends on the weather and such. We tried having the heating come on for half an hour ever so often during the day in an effort to keep the house somewhat warm.

Is it better to have the boiler dial turned lowish and leave the heating on for longer so? How do you have you settings? 

FYI - we do not have a room thermostate. Just the dial at the boiler so we have no idea what temp range that reflects either.

Having a service person calling tomorrow to help with figuring out our problem as I am not willing to put up with high bills but neither am I willing to be sitting in the freezing cold with a newborn.


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## Effie (23 Jan 2009)

Thanks for the link Picassoman, will see how I get on with getting a smoke pen for myself.


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## Jane Doe (6 Feb 2009)

I am waiting to hear about a stat.

My house is still cold unless i leave the heating on all day and set it low at the boiler so that it turns on and off. Even then it is only 19 degress but better than leaving it cool completeley. I am worried about cost though and yet do not want house to get damp   or me to get cold... hate the cold. Does anyone do this and does it cost a fortune? Thanks


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## cleverclogs7 (6 Feb 2009)

im on R/A and try to keep bills as low as possible.I was living in a 3 bed with gas,i set timmer from 6-9 am and 2.30-6pm but kept rads off in bedroom untill 4pm.door closed at all times.gas bill every 2 months 90-98e max.temp set to 22 degrees.im now in oil heating house got 300lts oil in november set timer for same times as above and checked oil leval only yesterday.i have used about half the oil.i think that if you keep the temp down to 15-18 degrees you could keep it on most of the day without have a huge gas bill.trial and error.


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## BillK (6 Feb 2009)

Given that the rough conversion from Celcius to Fahrenheit is to double and add 30, a temp of 22C is about 74 F. Surely that is far too hot a temp to be wearing clothes?


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## Jane Doe (6 Feb 2009)

cleverclogs7 said:


> .i think that if you keep the temp down to 15-18 degrees you could keep it on most of the day without have a huge gas bill.trial and error.


that is what i was hoping ,thanks


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## cleverclogs7 (7 Feb 2009)

keep warm jane


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