# FAS chief defends executives' expenses (again!)



## z105 (24 Nov 2008)

Here we go again - this money pit needs to be sorted out - 



> The Chief Executive of FÁS, Roddy Molloy, has defended spending by the agency on travel and entertainment for top executives and their wives.
> The State training agency spent €643,000 in four years on transatlantic travel promoting it's Science Challenge programme.
> Speaking on RTÉ radio Mr Molloy said the money was spent developing relationships with the science community in Florida and that the programme was a very good one that had benefitted Irish students.
> 
> ...





> people only get what they are entitled to.


Doesn't mean that what they are entitled to is correct/good value for money


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## Purple (24 Nov 2008)

While I would never pay for business class or first class flights when travelling on business (and I sure as hell wouldn’t pay for them when going on holidays) I can see the justification for the head of an organisation such as FAS  using business class (but not first class). The state should not spend one cent for his wife to go anywhere; there is no circumstance when the spouse of an employee (or director or owner) of a company or state organisation should have their travel paid for unless they are also travelling in an official/business capacity.


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## Howitzer (24 Nov 2008)

I never realised Florida was such a hot bed for the science community, I'd always associated it with sun holidays and theme parks. My mistake.


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## z104 (24 Nov 2008)

If he was going on business then the missus should have been left behind unless she paid for it herself.


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## z105 (24 Nov 2008)

Oh and the $900 round of golf - all in the interests of science I guess 

And why do they have have credit card limits of 80,000 euro pray tell anyone?

And there is the one about the Glass Thermometer presented to Mary Hanafin by the science students FAS had been meeting, which was factually paid for by FAS for them to present to Ms.Hanafin and then it cost in the region of $400 to ship it back to Ireland !!!

I mean what the heck type of organisation or rather disorganisation are we dealing with here?

This is absolutely scandalous. Change the parameters in which expenses are doled out - NOW !


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## Kerak (24 Nov 2008)

I have attended Fas delivered course, arranged  and delivered by Baggot S/ SCR for all the Dublin participants, in Mullingar, the Fas administrators  travelled down on Tuesday for the preparation , we finished at 17:00 on the Weds, they travelled back to Dublin on Thursday
( and the few  course participants who went down on Tuesday night because of the 9am start , witnessed plenty of hospitality in the bar the night before.)


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## sam h (24 Nov 2008)

In relation to downgrading his 1st class flight, does anyone know if :

 a) He used his 1st class ticket to exchange for 2 Business class flight (which mean we paid for his wife to fly to america)

 b) Downgraded his ticket & used his own money to pay for her ticket (which would mean we actually saved money)

I have a feeling from the way he was saying it on the radio is was option "a".....if so, this is effective theft & he should be sacked.

His general attitude of "I'm intitled" and "sure a few movies is no big deal" and "that must have slipped in by accident" (an expensive beauty treatment) smacked of such arrogance & self righteousness it was incredible.


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## Mpsox (24 Nov 2008)

Mrs Sox has travelled with me a few times when I've been overseas but we've always paid her way ourselves. I'd be too embarassed to try and claim expenses for her travel, unless it was a work-related function/deal celebration with a partner invited. Does this guy have any shame?


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## Purple (24 Nov 2008)

Kerak said:


> and the few  course participants who went down on Tuesday night because of the 9am start


 What?!? It takes an hour to drive down, two at the most. There is zero justification for paying for anyone to stay overnight if they came from Dublin. No bar receipts should be accepted for expenses unless clients were being entertained (and this was not happening on a training course).


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## Sunny (24 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> What?!? It takes an hour to drive down, two at the most. There is zero justification for paying for anyone to stay overnight if they came from Dublin. No bar receipts should be accepted for expenses unless clients were being entertained (and this was not happening on a training course).


 
I have a relative who works for the civil service in a department that requires him to work outside Dublin alot of the time. He was telling me that they had a problem with people leaving the job early on Friday to get back to Dublin. How did they solve it? They decided to pay an overnight allowance for the Friday night even though no-one uses it. If he is back down in the same place on Monday morning, he gets the allowance for Saturday and Sunday night as well. Can't remember what the allowance was but it was something like €145 per night. On top of that he got living allowance of €44 a day. And then of course there was milage. The best part of it was that all of these expenses were *unreceipted and tax free*. He was staying in B&B's and living on a lot less that €44 a day but still got the full allowance. I won't tell you how much 'profit' he reckons he made last year. He had colleagues who stayed with family and friends and still got the allowance.

The whole system of expenses in the public sector (here we go again I know) is a disgrace.


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## gianni (24 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> He was staying in B&B's and living on a lot less that €44 a day but still got the full allowance. I won't tell you how much 'profit' he reckons he made last year. He had colleagues who stayed with family and friends and still got the allowance.
> 
> The whole system of expenses in the public sector (here we go again I know) is a disgrace.




In the interest of balance, I don't think this is confined to the public sector... in my organisation (non-public) this is common practice amongst reps on the road. They have a set overnight allowance/meal allowance etc.. and they are forever trying to make a saving on this. Rightly or wrongly a lot of people view this as an income supplement.

Thought the FAS CEO came across very badly - perhaps he's not the best person to be speaking to the media. Surely someone in his organisation might have suggested he leave the live interviews to someone a bit more media savvy. The only thing that will be remembered from the interview are the "I'm entitled to First Class travel" and "that's chicken feed in the grand scheme of things" statements.


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## Teabag (24 Nov 2008)

Howitzer said:


> I never realised Florida was such a hot bed for the science community, I'd always associated it with sun holidays and theme parks. My mistake.



Not condoning the FAS guy but Florida does have Cape Canaveral, Kennedy Space Center and Space Institute.


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## TarfHead (24 Nov 2008)

gianni said:


> Thought the FAS CEO came across very badly - perhaps he's not the best person to be speaking to the media.


 
I thought the role of the Chairman in an organisation was to set the 'climate' and ensure that those in operational roles act in accordance that 'climate'.

If Mr. Molloy was entitled to fly first-class, or to use business class with his wife, then who was signing off on his interpretation of what he could or could not do ? Who was signing off on his travel arrangements and expenses ?

I'm not defending him but, to me, the issue is more than just €10 pay-per-view movies. There is a whole corporate governance issue at play here.


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## z105 (24 Nov 2008)

> In the interest of balance, I don't think this is confined to the public sector... in my organisation (non-public) this is common practice amongst reps on the road.



That's a different matter as it's not public money being used.

The whole "deal" that any CEO of FARCE, sorry FAS, needs to looked at and looked at immediately.


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## Howitzer (24 Nov 2008)

Teabag said:


> Not condoning the FAS guy but Florida does have Cape Canaveral, Kennedy Space Center and Space Institute.


Sweet. Bring on the Irish space program. 

SHOTGUN!


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## NOAH (24 Nov 2008)

The way that I read it is that FAS is part of the Civil Service and the grades are linked to equivalent grades so a Senior Officer in the civil service who qualifies for 1st class travel the equivalent will also qualify.  In essence the travel and subsistence rules are set in stone.

Every man and his dog knows that T&S is a good earner so no one is going to ask for change.  A fortune would be saved if it was all receipted and limits set but hey this is ... Ireland.

noah


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## Complainer (24 Nov 2008)

When I first heard the stuff about business class flights for the wives, my reaction was that somebody would have to be fired immediately. However, the story about downgrading from first to business has some validity. Many, many years ago, I got a very new employer to pay for weekend flights to Rome for my missus, on the grounds that the flights for two including the weekend were cheaper than the flights for one returning on the Friday. 

Perhaps the problem was with the first-class travel policy in the first place. This is a fairly outragous extravagance for anyone. I don't have a problem with business class, particularly of someone is expected to be at work on the day after a transatlantic flight, but first class is a bit much. As is the Merrion Hotel bill/tip, and the pay-per-view bills, and the unspecific 'merchandising' etc.

I'm on a fixed overnight subsistence rate for travel within Ireland of €145 approx. Some nights I make a few quid, and some nights I lose a few quid, depending on the cost of the hotel. I'm not going to share a loo in Mrs Murphy's B&B to make €30 - life's too short.


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## ashambles (24 Nov 2008)

Chap reminds me of Heather Mills, though that's unkind to her. First class is generally not paid for by anybody, except us it seems as taxpayers.

Anybody who flies reasonably frequently would realize that while the cost difference is huge the comfort difference between first and business is trivial. He comes across as someone naive to how airlines price seats or even how business works.

First class is there to bump up frequent fliers, and for the odd celebrity or heiress with more money than sense.

I'd doubt that any of the leading Irish companies would pay ~15k to fly the CEO (though the banks might have) to the US. Bill Gates traveled coach and did ok. Many of the US companies here have a coach policy for employees (often enforced from the Irish rather than US side).


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## Purple (24 Nov 2008)

I took over 100 business flights last year, most within the EU but a few to the USA and Central America. In every case I worked the next day (or the same day). Most of the flights within the EU were there and back the same day... I see no reason for anyone below ministerial/ Secretary of Dept (or CEO of FAS) to travel business class. There is no reason why the state should ever pay for a first class flight anywhere.

BTW, €145 for overnight sounds about right. Mileage rates should not exceed €.35 per Km.


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## Duke of Marmalade (24 Nov 2008)

TarfHead said:


> I'm not defending him but, to me, the issue is more than just €10 pay-per-view movies.


Public servants should not be watching those movies.


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## Purple (24 Nov 2008)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Public servants should not be watching those movies.



Why not? A public servant can do whever they like once they have done their days work. Just because they are away on business it doesn't mean that they have to work 24/7


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## extopia (24 Nov 2008)

The indo article suggested some of those movies cost >$30. Hmmmm....


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## Kerak (25 Nov 2008)

The Fas staffer who’s management style forced at least 5 companies to pursue legal avenues costing Fas in excess of 1.75m legal fees and theire own fee's.( Fas legal team is one of the big five, and never appeared with out at least a SC, JC and whole battalion of legal assistants) and when the staffer was moved side wards,( most if not all these legal issues could have been negotiated or compromised to a much less costly conclusion) he took a constructive dismissal action and won and was reinstated to old position and has since resumed the hmmm confrontational agenda again ( and these where the actions we where aware of, could be many more). The usual suspects from Fas were then sent on a court witness training course( approx 3k per head)so that they wouldn’t make a continuing hash of there “lets play at been a high court judge” game. Another couple of million down the drain( time period 2004-2007), then nearly one years leave with pay while the constructive dismissal action was dealt with. The staffers legal fee where of course paid by Fas.( Fas paying to sue themselves!!!!)


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## Sunny (25 Nov 2008)

And now we find out that parts of FAS internal audit is not being made available to the public accounts committee for legal reasons. It is time to sack the board and put new people in so we can find out exactly what has been going on in there. It is getting obvious that the current board and chairman is compromised. The whole thing is a farce.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

If FAS are just following general public service travel and expense guidelines then this has much wider implications.

The fact that FAS are blacking out sections of the accounts which they have submitted to the public accounts committee may or may not have legal implications, we will have to wait and see.
What this does do is show yet again that the government (and the so called managers within departments) are incapable of spending our money in anything approaching a judicious way. It also reinforces the perception that the public sector is run for the benefit of the people who work in it rather than the country as a whole. I am not suggesting that this is the attitude of most of the employees but it does seem to be the overarching culture as expressed in the actions of senior management and the Unions. I am sure that many of the staff working in FAS, and many other state and semi-state bodies feel the double frustration of seeing how the resources that they need are being wasted and being tarred with the same brush as the guys who see nothing wrong with spending around a quarter of a million Euro a year on travel and expenses.


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## St. Bernard (25 Nov 2008)

The whole Motor & Travel policy needs to be addressed. This is outrageous. It would never happen on my watch. I work for a multi billion euro company and i see everything that goes through expenses, company credit cards etc etc.


Never ever happen on my watch tut tut tut


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## Sunny (25 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> I am sure that many of the staff working in FAS, and many other state and semi-state bodies feel the double frustration of seeing how the resources that they need are being wasted and being tarred with the same brush as the guys who see nothing wrong with spending around a quarter of a million Euro a year on travel and expenses.


 
I agree. I would say it is very fustrating for employees on the front line to be hearing these stories and dealing with struggling unemployed members of the public at the same time. They must get some abuse. If the guy had any sort of decency, he would resign straight away and so would the rest of the board. Cowan could come to deeply regret supporting him like he did.


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## zag (25 Nov 2008)

I had to laugh when I heard about the blacked-out entries in the accounts.  It reminded me of something involving Jason Bourne, CIA, covert ops, 'the company', plausible deniability, etc . . .

You can see the scene now . . . senior people sitting in front of the public account committee, telling them that there are some things they can't discuss, some things that it's better nobody knew about, national security, etc . . .

You want the truth ?  You want the truth ?  You can't handle the truth . . .

This is FAS, what on earth could they be doing that would warrant blacking-out in the accounts ?  Maybe changing their training profile and moving into lego house construction or something that would really annoy one of their current interest groups.

z


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

zag said:


> I had to laugh when I heard about the blacked-out entries in the accounts.  It reminded me of something involving Jason Bourne, CIA, covert ops, 'the company', plausible deniability, etc . . .
> 
> You can see the scene now . . . senior people sitting in front of the public account committee, telling them that there are some things they can't discuss, some things that it's better nobody knew about, national security, etc . . .
> 
> ...


There are a number of police investigations under way. Maybe the blacked out sections relate to those?


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## cork (25 Nov 2008)

Maybe Fas Management could take advice from our County and City Councillors about international travel junkets?


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## bamboozle (25 Nov 2008)

What I find even more outrageous & comical is the fact that they’re blowing all this money on that science program over in Florida while at the same time so many apprentices in Ireland cannot even get a spot in the class room aspect of their respective courses in their own region, I know of 2 friends electrician & carpenter, both from Dublin but have had courses delayed by 6 months plus as there were no spaces available for them, and when a space arises they’re shunted off to Letterkenny, Carlow, Enniskillen for 10-12 weeks.  Both guys took over 5 years to complete their apprentices as they had been delayed time and again by FAS.


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## bamboozle (25 Nov 2008)

Also, the most sickening part of the report I thought was the executive who’s travel expense was signed off by the Director General, his travel consisted of Taking a Volvo on the Ferry to France in June for 4 weeks.....hmmmm does that really sound work related!!!!!! $410 for getting the nails done also takes the p1ss big time


These guys think they’re untouchable...sad thing is they probably are
Well done Shane Ross for raising this FAS issue time and time again


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> Cowan could come to deeply regret supporting him like he did.


I agree. He’s from Birr, down the road from Brian. This sort of “I know him well, he’s a descent skin” attitude is sickening.


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## Teabag (25 Nov 2008)

Howitzer said:


> Sweet. Bring on the Irish space program.
> 
> SHOTGUN!



Is that an apology to the good people of Florida ?


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

From today’s Irish Times _“the Fás Science Challenge project, which spent over €600,000 on transatlantic travel for the director general of Fás, Rody Molloy, his wife *and senior Fás executives *in a four-year period.” _If this is the case then it’s €600’000 for Mr Molloy and an unknown number of other executives. This changes everything; it may not be that big a deal after all. Until we know how many people this €600’000 applies to, specifically what projects they were working on and what the returns were in jobs, investment etc over the four years I don’t feel I can stay on the bandwagon. (Not that Rody Molloy cares but) I reserve my judgement on this specific story ‘till I have more of the facts. 

It does seem clear that there needs to be a much greater level of oversight in the public sector.
I suggest that the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General needs to be expanded.


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## extopia (25 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> From today’s Irish Times _“the Fás Science Challenge project, which spent over €600,000 on transatlantic travel for the director general of Fás, Rody Molloy, his wife *and senior Fás executives *in a four-year period.” _If this is the case then it’s €600’000 for Mr Molloy and an unknown number of other executives. This changes everything; it may not be that big a deal after all....



I don't think anyone ever claimed that Molloy ran up the 600k alone. It's plain when you look at the line items (nail bars, rounds of golf, ppv movies, ministerial gifts, first class flights and car ferry bills, etc. etc.) that the expense account could have some questionable transactions.

I'd like to know much more about this supposed "science project" and see some cost-benefit analysis on same.


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## Duke of Marmalade (25 Nov 2008)

We are told that our heroes need first class cross Atlantic travel so as to be fresh and fit for the job. Fair enough. What annoys me is when they trade down to business class so as to bring the wife. Now the taxpayer has a double whammy - we are out the dosh yet our man arrives unfit for task.


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## Purple (25 Nov 2008)

BTW, what airline flies first class from Dublin to Florida?


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## orka (25 Nov 2008)

There isn't even a business class flight direct to Florida (Aer Lingus is economy only to Orlando) so it would have to be via the UK to get first class.  And as I think has already been mentioned, there is really NO justification for any public employees travelling first class - there is a marginal difference in comfort but the price can be a 2-3 times multiple.  Once you've got a flat bed, power for your laptop and enough space to spread out some papers and stick your elbows out while you work on your laptop (and you get all this in business class), anything extra is an unnecessary extravagance.  I'm really shocked that senior civil servants (how senior/how many?) are 'entitled' to this.


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## Towger (25 Nov 2008)

Kerak said:


> then nearly one years leave with pay while the constructive dismissal action was dealt with.


 
Sure, it is only one year. The HSE has had people suspended on full pay for years. It is such a mess they just seem to have been forgotten about...


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## AgathaC (25 Nov 2008)

Apparently he has just announced his resignation...I just wonder though is this carry-on typical of all government departments. I do not mean by the 'ordinary workers' but by the 'top brass'? It is a sickening waste of public money.


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## NorthDrum (26 Nov 2008)

AgathaC said:


> Apparently he has just announced his resignation...I just wonder though is this carry-on typical of all government departments. I do not mean by the 'ordinary workers' but by the 'top brass'? It is a sickening waste of public money.


 
More then likely he has been "ecnouraged" to sacrifice himself for the good of FAS (or for the "family" , aka the have mores as Bush put it). 

That way the press will have their pound of flesh and the rest of this debacle can be swept under the carpet.

Sickening, most of the points I agree with are in these posts but is it any surprise that a FF govt that has absolutely no grasp on reality has a civil service that appears to be run (higher up the ladders) by complete humpty dumptys that have little grasp of the reality of the situation. To justify anything by saying "well I am entitled to it" is to sidestep the issue. Thats pretty much saying to me that he flushes the first class toilets in the plane just as hes flying over the taxpayers house. Yes he is entitled to flush the toilet, doesnt mean he has to.

I wish some of these idiots would just come out and admit that while they were entitled to it, its probobley not really morally right!.

That aside, there is a bigger issue and its not limited to FAS. Semi State bodies or any agency in the state should be run like a Privately owned business. At the very least they should be in some way accountable to the public.

There is a cloak and dagger feel to most of these "dodgy" situations that the govt or the govt run associations seem to end up in, more so because of their reactions ( " It wasnt me " "Its my right" . . ) then what they actually did.

One word sums up probobley the biggest problem in all these govt departments. Accountability. In all spectrums of the word. Accountability for poor decisions made , accountability for poor performances and ultimately accountability in terms of justifying expenses.


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## Complainer (26 Nov 2008)

Kerak said:


> then nearly one years leave with pay while the constructive dismissal action was dealt with. The staffers legal fee where of course paid by Fas.( Fas paying to sue themselves!!!!)


Nothing unusual about the loser paying the other side's costs as part of a settlement.


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## ninsaga (26 Nov 2008)

AgathaC said:


> Apparently he has just announced his resignation...I just wonder though is this carry-on typical of all government departments. I do not mean by the 'ordinary workers' but by the 'top brass'? It is a sickening waste of public money.



..all the signs of being caught with his hand in the cookie jar.


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## bamboozle (26 Nov 2008)

Brian Cowen - From Offally
Rody Molloy - From Birr Co. Offally
Proposed decentralisation of Fas to.......(cue drumroll) you guessed it Birr Co. Offally!!!

sickening, but no doubt Molloy will find another cushty job with the civil service


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## Sunny (26 Nov 2008)

While I think he deserves credit for resigning (Hopefully he will have started a trend!), I will hold off until I see what sort of parachute payment including pension that he gets. Apparently it is in line with public sector norms. Anyone know what that means??

Anyway time to move on to Brian Cowan and his ringing endorsement on Monday. How many messes can one guy find himself in over such a short period of time. He is fast going down as the worst (or unluckiest) Taoiseach of all time.


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## Graham_07 (26 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> He is fast going down as the worst (or unluckiest) Taoiseach of all time.


 
Well since Bertie had, I think, title of the "Teflon Taoiseach" could BC's be...the "Velcro Taoiseach"


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## ubiquitous (26 Nov 2008)

bamboozle said:


> Rody Molloy - From Birr Co. Offaly
> Proposed decentralisation of Fas to.......(cue drumroll) you guessed it Birr Co. Offaly!!!



Says it all, really.


(in fairness to Cowen, he was Minister for Foreign Affairs at the time that McCreevy announced the decentralisation plans and he was unlikely to have had a role in deciding which state agency should be landed in Birr)


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## Sunny (26 Nov 2008)

Graham_07 said:


> Well since Bertie had, I think, title of the "Teflon Taoiseach" could BC's be...the "Velcro Taoiseach"


 

That nickname could stick!


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## Lollix (26 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Says it all, really.
> 
> 
> (in fairness to Cowen, he was Minister for Foreign Affairs at the time that McCreevy announced the decentralisation plans and he was unlikely to have had a role in deciding which state agency should be landed in Birr)


 
You're giving credit where none is due. It can be assumed that the decentralisation pot was divvied up at cabinet table. It's unlikely that one minister would be given all the spoils from that particular raid on the taxpayers' money.


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## ubiquitous (26 Nov 2008)

Lollix said:


> You're giving credit where none is due. It can be assumed that the decentralisation pot was divvied up at cabinet table. It's unlikely that one minister would be given all the spoils from that particular raid on the taxpayers' money.



I thought that was my point? Its unlikely that Cowen had responsibility for divvying up the spoils. I assume he was happy when Birr and the other towns in Offaly got their shares of the pot.


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## Kerak (26 Nov 2008)

Complainer, 
I don’t disagree, however the easy with which this case was driven to legal recourse path is indicative of the poor management within fas , not just at Director level.

The others cases some of which where "won" by fas where actually settled by the means" if you don’t accept the findings and punishments, we will pursue you for costs, incidentally our costs are €xxx,xxx.”  The fear of such cost been a pretty strong incentive to accept.

At least two things wrong with this 

1. if the parties where guilty of something then they should have been pursued for costs, not subsidized by the taxpayer.

2. Fas using there huge clout and vastly deep pockets to overwhelm the smaller private firm or individual.

The constructive dismissal case, cost in excess of 250,000 euro to deal with, the individual involved had already cost 1.75million in legal costs to fas for his poor management, judgment– 2million he cost Fas or us the tax payer!!!, makes a few 1st class flights and a round of golf seem harmless!!!!      
(and I add these are the cases we are aware of)

(Regarding freedom of information and Fas, we received 11 pages following a FOI request, there where 9 words that could be read, the rest was blacked out.  I hope the PAC has better luck)


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## dereko1969 (26 Nov 2008)

I think it's important to note that this issue went to the PAC due to the workings of public servants in FAS, the internal audit committee there weren't happy with the fact that their proposals for a review were being ignored. So yet again, it's unfair to tar all public servants with the Rody Molloy brush. 
I hope the PAC don't let this go, and that the C&AG's office start doing a trawl of all Govt Departments and Agencies to check on unvouched or excessive expenses - no public or civil servant should travel first class ever and business class is stretching it a lot. Then, they should start looking at TD/Senator expenses.


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## Sunny (26 Nov 2008)

dereko1969 said:


> So yet again, it's unfair to tar all public servants with the Rody Molloy brush.
> .


 
To be fair I don't think anyone is. People have already pointed out that they feel sorry for the ordinary employees of FAS during this mess. I do hope that this whole mess leads to a complete overview of the whole area of expenses in the civil service and State Agencies. 

I once worked for a large multi-national company and when we had to travel for business, all our flights and hotels were booked through a central office based in London. There was no way I could swap my business class seat for two economy tickets for myself and my girlfriend or stay in unapproved hotel! Does such a system operate in the civil service or is it each to own with regard to travel arrangements


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## bamboozle (26 Nov 2008)

from reading Ross's article most of the expenses had been signed off by Molloy.....


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## Complainer (26 Nov 2008)

Kerak said:


> Complainer,
> The others cases some of which where "won" by fas where actually settled by the means" if you don’t accept the findings and punishments, we will pursue you for costs, incidentally our costs are €xxx,xxx.”  The fear of such cost been a pretty strong incentive to accept.
> 
> At least two things wrong with this
> ...


This practice (whether you like it or not) is by no means unique to FAS. Isn't the Dept Education currently pursuing the family of the autistic boy who took a case for ABA services for hundreds of thousands in costs? Just as they did for the lady in Cork who took a case for damages arising from abuse as a child.


Kerak said:


> The constructive dismissal case, cost in excess of 250,000 euro to deal with, the individual involved had already cost 1.75million in legal costs to fas for his poor management, judgment– 2million he cost Fas or us the tax payer!!!, makes a few 1st class flights and a round of golf seem harmless!!!!


I don't think it is fair to state that 'he cost FAS or us'. He took a case, and won in court, so clearly the fault lies with FAS rather than with him.


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## Kerak (26 Nov 2008)

The five cases he caused, that we know about cost 1.75 million, no costs where pursued in these cases, Fas had partial success in causing the parties to amend or correct the percieved errors. The same and better results could have been achived in a less costly manner. None of the 5 parties effected took the first legal steps as far as we are  aware. Fas did.


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## AgathaC (26 Nov 2008)

dereko1969 said:


> I hope the PAC don't let this go, and that the C&AG's office start doing a trawl of all Govt Departments and Agencies to check on unvouched or excessive expenses - no public or civil servant should travel first class ever and business class is stretching it a lot. Then, they should start looking at TD/Senator expenses.


I absolutely agree. I also dont think he should just be allowed to walk away...thereby not having to trouble himself to appear in front of the PAC at all. Also am I right in thinking that he will get a very good financial settlement in the process?


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## Purple (26 Nov 2008)

AgathaC said:


> I absolutely agree. I also dont think he should just be allowed to walk away...thereby not having to trouble himself to appear in front of the PAC at all. Also am I right in thinking that he will get a very good financial settlement in the process?


 Maybe we need another tribunal?


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## Towger (26 Nov 2008)

What I found most interesting about the whole debacial was learning that the board of FAS consists mainly of the heads of the various unions. It is as if they have their own little club at tax payers expense.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2008)

Now the $400 it for a group of people, Mary Harney being one (getting her hair done for an official engagement). There may well be massive waste in FAS but this is not it.


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## Complainer (26 Nov 2008)

Towger said:


> What I found most interesting about the whole debacial was learning that the board of FAS consists mainly of the heads of the various unions. It is as if they have their own little club at tax payers expense.


You're exposing your own bias here. The board does not consist 'mainly' of the heads of various unions. On the offchance that you're interested in the facts of who is on the board, see http://www.fas.ie/en/About+Us/Corporate+Structure/FAS+Management/Board+Members.htm


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## Towger (26 Nov 2008)

Complainer said:


> You're exposing your own bias here. The board does not consist 'mainly' of the heads of various unions. On the offchance that you're interested in the facts of who is on the board, see http://www.fas.ie/en/About+Us/Corporate+Structure/FAS+Management/Board+Members.htm


 

Peter McLoone, General Secretary, IMPACT
Des Geraghty – Former senior official in SIPTU 
Sally Anne Kinahan – Assistant General Secretary, ICTU
Alice Prendergast – former President, TUI 
Owen Wills – General Secretary, TEEU

Is IBEC not the employers Union?


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## Complainer (26 Nov 2008)

Towger said:


> Peter McLoone, General Secretary, IMPACT
> Des Geraghty – Former senior official in SIPTU
> Sally Anne Kinahan – Assistant General Secretary, ICTU
> Alice Prendergast – former President, TUI
> ...



You're exposing your own bias here again. The board does not consist 'mainly' of the heads of various unions. On the offchance that you're interested in the facts of who is on the board,

*Chairman*



Peter McLoone
 *Representatives of Minister for Enterprise, Trade & Employment *



Caroline Casey
Dermot Mulligan
 *Representative of Minister for Education and Science *



Ruth Carmody
 *Representative of Minister for Finance *



Tim Duggan
 *Representative of Minister for Social & Family Affairs*



Brian O'Raghallaigh
 *Representatives from Trade Union Sector*



Des Geraghty
Sally Anne Kinahan
Alice Prendergast
Owen Wills
 *Representatives from Employer Sector *



Jenny Hayes
Brian Keogh
Danny McCoy
Niall Saul
 *Employee Members of FÁS *



Margaret Mernagh
Frank Walsh
 *Youth Interests *



James O'Leary


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## z106 (26 Nov 2008)

Can't belive that guy loe vadrick from FG is on vincent browne now calling for mary harneys resignation.

WHat rubbish !!

Surely mary harney was over there at the time representing FAs and acting as a face to the country.

Spending tax payers money on non-extravagant grooming is more than acceptable in my book in that scenario.


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## Purple (26 Nov 2008)

qwertyuiop said:


> Can't belive that guy loe vadrick from FG is on vincent browne now calling for mary harneys resignation.
> 
> WHat rubbish !!
> 
> ...


That's the point I was making.


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## bamboozle (27 Nov 2008)

its the lad who had a €700 'expense' for taking his car on the ferry to France for a month signed off by Molloy that takes the biscuit.
taking the state jet while at the same time booking flights in case the jet wasnt running is another extravagence which is inexcusable.


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## Towger (27 Nov 2008)

Complainer said:


> You're exposing your own bias here again. The board does not consist 'mainly' of the heads of various unions. On the offchance that you're interested in the facts of who is on the board,




Why did you feel the need to post the same message twice?


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## Sunny (27 Nov 2008)

qwertyuiop said:


> Can't belive that guy loe vadrick from FG is on vincent browne now calling for mary harneys resignation.
> 
> WHat rubbish !!
> 
> ...


 
I kind of do agree but is the point not that she earns a basic salary of over €200,000 per annum. Can she not pay for her own wash and blowdry? I work with plenty of women who represent my company in much more important meetings than some FAS science mission and none of them have ever charged their personal grooming to the company. For me its the principle of the thing. Do these guys use their own money for anything?


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## Duke of Marmalade (27 Nov 2008)

Cowan is totally weakened. His initial reaction was to stand by his man. If he believed that he should have refused the resignation. The fact is Cowan has completely run out of runway and has no b*lls for doing anything which might be unpopular.


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## DublinTexas (27 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> I kind of do agree but is the point not that she earns a basic salary of over €200,000 per annum. Can she not pay for her own wash and blowdry? I work with plenty of women who represent my company in much more important meetings than some FAS science mission and none of them have ever charged their personal grooming to the company. For me its the principle of the thing. Do these guys use their own money for anything?


 
It is amazing what we as tax payers have to pay for so that they can do their offical duty for which they are already paid very well.

If I have to go onto a business trip I can't invoice my boss for wash and blowdry, there are limits to how much money I am allowed to spend on food, hotel and laundy and it's regulated what I can do and not do.

And the company I work for is larger than the irish goverment.

So why do we simply accept that these people are allowed to invoice everything they do on trips because it was "offical business". 

Incredible what we let these people do with our money.


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## sidzer (27 Nov 2008)

Apart from the apparent massive abuse of state monies - from my perspective we get a very poor service from an organisation that spends 1billion a year.

As a career adviser I regularly ring FAS to find out about courses on offer on my locality on behalf of students who don't fit easily into the traditional third level college groove. I am amazed by the lack of information and the difficulty and digging that must be done to get a sense of what's on offer - and invariably the range of options are very poor and in most cases not relevant to the needs of the average school leaver in the current employment market.

So when they are fininshed with the nail bills I think there are bigger questions about what is or is not happening in FAS and how relevant it is to the current pool of school leavers and unemployed people in need of retraining.

S


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## Kerak (27 Nov 2008)

Well said Sidzer.

The apprentices 6 months waiting for phase 2, taking up to five years to do a 4 year apprenticeship.

And there’s changes been made to how the on the job phases are signed off.( A 1st year out of his time trade/craftsman could now sign off the records of an apprentice for his on the job training)

In the south east it took 9 fas officials to relay this point to employers representatives in a 1 hour briefing after lunch for everyone in a major hotel..

The total farce that is CSCS, particularly the 3 new ones delayed till 2009 due to lack of trainers!( despite there been internationally accepted equivalents available fas is insisting on re-inventing the wheel)

Its not just the top management, its the middle level and the project managers. The poor admins and clerks must be totally demoralized.

Used be a saying in construction " hes to thick to work in Fas", but it looks like they where the ones coining it in.

Also good to see Niall Saul , from McNamaras is the one on the board that has brought so much to the fore, the main builders have always lived in fear of fas and its great that they are now been brough to book. The petty power mad middle managers and project managers need to learn a lesson as well. 

Fas needs to be dis- assembled , return the apprentices to the colleges, the training standards to FETAC/HETAC etc, Safety to the HSA and commercial providers, CE schemes to some body who understands there major significant role in a % of the community who are unlikely to get main stream employment and who used find fulfillment and purpose in having 18 hours on a CE scheme. I’m sure others could make better suggestions

And Molloy to get ½ a MILLION pay off for been arrogant and out of touch!!!


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## Mpsox (27 Nov 2008)

Kerak said:


> And Molloy to get ½ a MILLION pay off for been arrogant and out of touch!!!


 
If I resigned from my job in the morning, I can't see my employer saying, "sorry to see you go, here's 2 years salary"


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## Purple (27 Nov 2008)

Mpsox said:


> If I resigned from my job in the morning, I can't see my employer saying, "sorry to see you go, here's 2 years salary"



That’s because you aren’t the director of FAS


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## Dreamerb (27 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> If FAS are just following general public service travel and expense guidelines then this has much wider implications.


This stuff is not normal. I'm astonished by some of what's been cited as expenses (pay-per-view films?! - I've no problem with people watching whatever they want, but they certainly shouldn't get to claim for it).

In any Department I've worked for, travel and hotel expenses must be vouched, and there are various subsistence rates in addition. Domestic subsistence is not vouched, but is moderate (you certainly won't get rich on it); overseas is highly variable but is linked to the cost of eating out, etc. If you're also entertaining clients / colleagues, all those costs must be fully vouched, and generally pre-approved.



Sunny said:


> I do hope that this whole mess leads to a complete overview of the whole area of expenses in the civil service and State Agencies.


I don't think a full review is actually necessary - but any state agencies which are not already operating to the standard government departments demand should immediately adopt standards no less rigorous than that. A Department of Finance circular, maybe...



Sunny said:


> I once worked for a large multi-national company and when we had to travel for business, all our flights and hotels were booked through a central office based in London. There was no way I could swap my business class seat for two economy tickets for myself and my girlfriend or stay in unapproved hotel! Does such a system operate in the civil service or is it each to own with regard to travel arrangements


Depends. Flights are just about always booked by a section in the Department which has responsibility for travel. I can't imagine you could swap without being detected - and flights must be booked as economy anyway if the journey is under 4 hours. I think Departmental policies may vary a bit over that threshold. 

Regarding hotels, you usually have the option of booking your own, but it must be vouched. And you are not expected to book 5* accommodation, either.


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## Firefly (27 Nov 2008)

Have to laugh - look at today's front page for what has to be the worst haircut ever - I hope she got a refund!!

http://www.independent.ie


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## Sunny (27 Nov 2008)

I take your points but I was listening to the news on one station and it was pointed out that Molloy and other senior civil servants are entitled to travel first class so he actually didn't do anything wrong in that regard. Now I can understand business class for long distance flights but first class is just taking the pi**.


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## NOAH (27 Nov 2008)

Its called taking the p.... and has gone on and will go on.  The head honcho abuses his position, gets found out, resigns, get big compensation and does not have to appear at the PAC.  Nice very nice.

And come election time FF will STILL be the biggest party or after this maybe not.

Mind you if all the jobs that are non jobs in the Public Service were removed the unemployemnt register would rocket so we are in a bad situation.


naoh


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## Dreamerb (27 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> [...] but first class is just taking the pi**.


I agree. 
Likewise on mileage rates - especially if going somewhere readily accessible by public transport. 
Same for not shopping around for the best rate on your chosen hotel. 
Same for getting taxis from Brussels airport at "normal" times of day (particular bugbear of mine, given that the trains are so reliable, fast and cheap).

Something not being technically against the rules doesn't necessarily justify it; perhaps public sector organisations should now review what's permitted, as well as improving evidential standards and procedures anywhere that's required.


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## viztopia (27 Nov 2008)

what about the auditors of FAS? Surelay as a company, FAS would have had to have an audit every year. should they not have come accross this whole expense fiasco before now? you wouldnt expect to see a heading in teh accounts of FAS for "travel to Florida" of €640,000 but a review of the expense woudl have revealed this. Also i woudl be surprised if there was not an internal audit committee in FAS. If so what was there role in all of this?


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## viztopia (27 Nov 2008)

http://www.fas.ie/en/PubDocs/AnnualReports/ANNUAL_REPORT07/accounts.htm

found teh accounts on the fas website. Fas had audit fees of €87,000 in 2007 and €79,000 in 2006. Value for money or what!!


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## Complainer (27 Nov 2008)

Towger said:


> Why did you feel the need to post the same message twice?


I reckoned that you didn't seem to get the point first time, as you repeated your misleading and incorrect claim about the board membership.



Mpsox said:


> If I resigned from my job in the morning, I can't see my employer saying, "sorry to see you go, here's 2 years salary"


While I don't agree with the payment and I'm not defending it in anyway, such payments would by no means be unusual at top levels in the private sector.


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## LMNOP (27 Nov 2008)

bamboozle said:


> Brian Cowen - From Offally
> Rody Molloy - From Birr Co. Offally
> Proposed decentralisation of Fas to.......(cue drumroll) you guessed it Birr Co. Offally!!!
> 
> sickening, but no doubt Molloy will find another cushty job with the civil service


 
According to Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Cowen

Cowen is married to Mary Molloy and has two daughters

Must be a very popular name in Birr..


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## room305 (28 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> And then of course there was milage. The best part of it was that all of these expenses were *unreceipted and tax free*. He was staying in B&B's and living on a lot less that €44 a day but still got the full allowance. I won't tell you how much 'profit' he reckons he made last year. He had colleagues who stayed with family and friends and still got the allowance.



Of course expenses are "tax free". They're tax free in the private sector as well. I know a senior level auditor in the C&AG and her daily expenses excluding mileage are about €160 for three meals and board. Definitely not excessive.



Purple said:


> If FAS are just following general public service travel and expense guidelines then this has much wider implications.



Believe me this is not the norm by any means. I know people working at fairly senior levels in the civil service and they were all appalled.



Purple said:


> I agree. He’s from Birr, down the road from Brian. This sort of “I know him well, he’s a descent skin” attitude is sickening.



When I heard this the first thing that popped into my head was "Isn't FAS supposed to decentralise to Birr?". The second thought was to chastise myself for even being so naive as to imagine anything else would be the case.



Purple said:


> From today’s Irish Times _“the Fás Science Challenge project, which spent over €600,000 on transatlantic travel for the director general of Fás, Rody Molloy, his wife *and senior Fás executives *in a four-year period.” _If this is the case then it’s €600’000 for Mr Molloy and an unknown number of other executives. This changes everything; it may not be that big a deal after all. Until we know how many people this €600’000 applies to, specifically what projects they were working on and what the returns were in jobs, investment etc over the four years I don’t feel I can stay on the bandwagon. (Not that Rody Molloy cares but) I reserve my judgement on this specific story ‘till I have more of the facts.



It's still an awful lot of money to spend on air travel on this one project. What the hell was it? I've lectured in science for two years and I've never heard of it. Was it pitched at third level or secondary or primary? To hear Hot Rod on the radio I thought we'd launched a second IDA with a mandate to pursue a space programme or something but the papers seemed to be billing it as a secondary level project. In which case it was a jolly boys outing for the senior level people and a great experience for the students involved but hardly the foundation stone for building an aerospace research industry.



Purple said:


> I suggest that the office of the Comptroller and Auditor General needs to be expanded.



Absolutely. One of the major problems is that many semi-states and local authorities are audited by private sector auditors rather than the C&AG. Private sector auditors have quite different requirements when it comes to auditing and might not see €400 haircuts as a problem once they are properly accounted for.



orka said:


> There isn't even a business class flight direct to Florida (Aer Lingus is economy only to Orlando) so it would have to be via the UK to get first class.  And as I think has already been mentioned, there is really NO justification for any public employees travelling first class - there is a marginal difference in comfort but the price can be a 2-3 times multiple.  Once you've got a flat bed, power for your laptop and enough space to spread out some papers and stick your elbows out while you work on your laptop (and you get all this in business class), anything extra is an unnecessary extravagance.  I'm really shocked that senior civil servants (how senior/how many?) are 'entitled' to this.



This sticks out for me too. Is he saying that he booked a flight for first class direct with one airline then redeemed it for two business class flights with another airline (fraud)? Or is he pointing to some imaginary accounting in his head where he was intending to buy one first class ticket with one airline but then at the last minute decided to bring the wife (and clearly feeling first class is only worth paying for with someone else's money) decided to book two business class tickets instead?



Sunny said:


> Does such a system operate in the civil service or is it each to own with regard to travel arrangements



This might have been answered elsewhere but it's fairly tightly controlled. In my own case as a public sector employee I get an allowance specific to the country I'm travelling to and the number of hours I'm staying. The hotel must be booked by the travel department but comes directly out of my allowance. Airline flights are economy only.

Perhaps the only extravagances allowed are airport taxis but only outside of the hours of work.



Purple said:


> Now the $400 it for a group of people, Mary Harney being one (getting her hair done for an official engagement). There may well be massive waste in FAS but this is not it.



I wouldn't consider haircuts in any way a reasonable expense.



sidzer said:


> Apart from the apparent massive abuse of state monies - from my perspective we get a very poor service from an organisation that spends 1billion a year.
> 
> As a career adviser I regularly ring FAS to find out about courses on offer on my locality on behalf of students who don't fit easily into the traditional third level college groove. I am amazed by the lack of information and the difficulty and digging that must be done to get a sense of what's on offer - and invariably the range of options are very poor and in most cases not relevant to the needs of the average school leaver in the current employment market.
> 
> ...



Excellent post, I couldn't agree more. I have been routinely shocked by the incompetence of FAS. Shane Ross and others seemed to tripping over themselves recently to mention the "good work performed by people on the ground" but personally I haven't seen it.



Sunny said:


> I take your points but I was listening to the news on one station and it was pointed out that Molloy and other *senior civil servants* are entitled to travel first class so he actually didn't do anything wrong in that regard. Now I can understand business class for long distance flights but first class is just taking the pi**.



There is absolutely no way this is standard even for very senior civil servants. Business class maybe but not first class. It should also be pointed out that the senior executives travelling on the FAS ticket were public sector employees not civil servants. It's an important distinction often glossed over and I say this as a public sector employee myself, the major waste is in the public sector not the civil service, by virtue of size alone if nothing else.


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## ubiquitous (28 Nov 2008)

viztopia said:


> what about the auditors of FAS? Surelay as a company, FAS would have had to have an audit every year. should they not have come accross this whole expense fiasco before now? you wouldnt expect to see a heading in teh accounts of FAS for "travel to Florida" of €640,000 but a review of the expense woudl have revealed this. Also i woudl be surprised if there was not an internal audit committee in FAS. If so what was there role in all of this?



UCD Professor Niamh Brennan, [broken link removed] who is one of Ireland's leading Corporate Governance experts was quoted in the Irish Indo yesterday as saying that the $400 nail bar bill and most of the other controversial expenditure items would be too small to attract the attention of auditors, due to the constraints imposed by  materiality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materiality_(auditing)


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## Purple (28 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> UCD Professor Niamh Brennan, [broken link removed] who is one of Ireland's leading Corporate Governance experts was quoted in the Irish Indo yesterday as saying that the $400 nail bar bill and most of the other controversial expenditure items would be too small to attract the attention of auditors, due to the constraints imposed by  materiality.
> 
> [broken link removed])



Very interesting. It seems that “Death by a thousand cuts” is not a diagnosable ailment in the public sector.


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## ubiquitous (28 Nov 2008)

LMNOP said:


> According to Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Cowen
> 
> Cowen is married to Mary Molloy and has two daughters
> 
> Must be a very popular name in Birr..



There are 68 Molloys in Offaly in the eircom phone book. http://www.eircomphonebook.ie/search/offaly/molloy.html


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## Sunny (28 Nov 2008)

room305 said:


> Of course expenses are "tax free". They're tax free in the private sector as well. I know a senior level auditor in the C&AG and her daily expenses excluding mileage are about €160 for three meals and board. Definitely not excessive.


 
Yes but in the vast majority of companies in the private sector, expenses are vouched for. They don't just get a supplement whether they spend it or not. I have an ex auditor from the C&AG sitting two desks away from me. He got €150 for accomadation and around €50 for meals. He said they very rarely spent over €100 per night on accomadtion. Breakfast more often than not included in with the B&B or Hotel so the €50 was really only for two meals and as he said lunch was often a sandwich. If he was away for more than a week in the same place, he got the allowance for the weekend even though he more often than not came back to Dublin for weekend. He knows people who claimed the milage even though they took turns car pooling to assignments if there was more than one person travelling. He said it was not uncommon to make a "profit" of around €500 on a week long assignment depending on where it was. 

Why on earth can expenses not be vouched for?


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## ubiquitous (28 Nov 2008)

Purple said:


> Very interesting. It seems that “Death by a thousand cuts” is not a diagnosable ailment in the public sector.



Fwiw, materiality applies in all audits, not just public sector audits.


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## Purple (28 Nov 2008)

I know a HSE employee, front line staff and all that, who was employed in Meath but mover to Dublin. She requested a transfer but could only be temporarily seconded (for three years so far). She gets a travel allowance from Meath to Dublin even though she lives in Dublin. She asked that this be stopped (as she lives in Dublin) and was told off by her manager for “causing trouble”. She was then rounded on by her union rep for the same thing.


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## Complainer (28 Nov 2008)

Sunny said:


> Yes but in the vast majority of companies in the private sector, expenses are vouched for. They don't just get a supplement whether they spend it or not. I have an ex auditor from the C&AG sitting two desks away from me. He got €150 for accomadation and around €50 for meals. He said they very rarely spent over €100 per night on accomadtion. Breakfast more often than not included in with the B&B or Hotel so the €50 was really only for two meals and as he said lunch was often a sandwich. If he was away for more than a week in the same place, he got the allowance for the weekend even though he more often than not came back to Dublin for weekend. He knows people who claimed the milage even though they took turns car pooling to assignments if there was more than one person travelling. He said it was not uncommon to make a "profit" of around €500 on a week long assignment depending on where it was.


Someone is pulling your leg, or has a poor memory. The public service travel and subsistence rates are public knowledge - see http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=5327&CatID=28&StartDate=1+January+2008&m= for the current ones. The 24 allowance (currently €145) includes accommodation AND all meals. There is no extra €50 for meals. My experience is that some nights you make a few quid on the allowance, particularly if you choose a B&B, and some nights you lose a few quid. I stayed in Jury's Inn Cork (not exactly the lap of luxury) on business earlier in the year at about €90 per night, plus €12 breakfast. We had dinner with a 1/2 bottle of wine, and a pub lunch, and I was over my allowance.

If there are multiple people claiming mileage while car pooling, this is fraud and weak management. If this is happening, report it today and make it stop. If he gets the allowance for staying the weekend, he doesn't get the travel costs for returning to Dublin.

The only way anyone is making any money through T&S is 
a) fraud
b) stay in crappy accommodation



Sunny said:


> Why on earth can expenses not be vouched for?


This is a double-edged sword. By sticking to the fixed allowance (as commonly happens in the private sector for sales staff out on the road), it is up to the employee to manage the costs. The exposure to the employer is fixed. If you want vouched expenses, then you have to be prepared to pay the extra when the accomodation costs pushes you over the fixed cost per day.


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## Caveat (28 Nov 2008)

Complainer said:


> such payments would by no means be unusual at top levels in the private sector.


 
Like?


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## Complainer (29 Nov 2008)

Caveat said:


> Like?


Mike Soden http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0530/presswatch.html


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## ubiquitous (29 Nov 2008)

room305 said:


> One of the major problems is that many semi-states and local authorities are audited by private sector auditors rather than the C&AG. Private sector auditors have quite different requirements when it comes to auditing and might not see €400 haircuts as a problem once they are properly accounted for.



Er, Fás is audited by the Comptroller & Auditor General


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## room305 (29 Nov 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> Er, Fás is audited by the Comptroller & Auditor General



Indeed and weren't the problems flagged in their report?


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## ubiquitous (29 Nov 2008)

I can't see much evidence of this by reading their accounts.

http://www.fas.ie/en/PubDocs/AnnualReports/ANNUAL_REPORT07/accounts.htm

1. The Audit Report is "clean" ie no qualifications or other matters highlighted for readers' attention.

2. The Statement on the System of Internal Financial Control states this: (particularly relevant passages highlighted by me)


> On behalf of the Board of An Foras Áiseanna Saothair (FÁS) I acknowledge our responsibility for ensuring that an effective system of internal financial control is maintained and operated.
> 
> The system can only provide reasonable and not absolute assurance that assets are safeguarded, transactions authorised and properly recorded, and that material errors or irregularities are either prevented or would be detected in a timely period.
> 
> ...





3. There are no disclosures in the Accounts of internal control weaknesses or other problems.


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## room305 (30 Nov 2008)

Strange, I thought what sparked the Garda investigation was the C&AG audit. I could be mistaken though.

I know auditors working in the public and private sector, this was a difference in audit procedures pointed out to me on both sides. Maybe it's not as big an issue as I thought.


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## ubiquitous (30 Nov 2008)

room305 said:


> I know auditors working in the public and private sector, this was a difference in audit procedures pointed out to me on both sides. Maybe it's not as big an issue as I thought.



I am an auditor myself (private sector) and I am damn glad it was not me who signed the last Fás audit report. Had any private-sector auditor done so, they would now be facing serious questions on their knowledge of the transactions highlighted last week, leading probably to a rigorous investigation into their compliance in this case with professional standards, and the possibility of significant professional sanction at its conclusion. Its interesting that the C&AG are spared this discomfort. Another case of 4 legs good,... ?


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## Caveat (1 Dec 2008)

Complainer said:


> Mike Soden http://www.rte.ie/business/2005/0530/presswatch.html


 
OK, that's one example from three and a half years ago.

It hardly supports your claim that "such payments would by no means be unusual at top levels in the private sector" does it?

I'm not saying these payments never happen, but I doubt they could be described as "by no means unusual"


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## Purple (1 Dec 2008)

It should also be remembered that banks are not typical of the private sector since there are massive barriers to entry into the market for start-ups and they must be licensed to operate... not exactly a typical open market.


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## Bronte (1 Dec 2008)

What I'd like to know........
1. Where is it written that the FAS chief is entitled to first class travel
2. Is one allowed to change first class to two business class tickets
3. Are business class tickets half the price of first class
4. Where is the proof of this
5. Is there not a duty/obligation to take the most cost effective option
6. Who paid for the spouses accommocation 
7. Who paid for the spouses transfers costs (taxi etc)
8. Who paid for the spouses meals
9. Were there other spouses on these trips
10. What benefit was the spouse on the trip to FAS/Ireland plc, what was their role
11. What has FAS, a job creation agency got to do with NASA, a space travel programe
12.  When Ireland had full employment (last 10 years) why did we need FAS
13. Who signs off the expenses of the head of FAS


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## quarterfloun (1 Dec 2008)

We don't need any more of this. We should get the Garda and the revenue on the job and they should apply the rules that were signed up and either allow, tax or prosecute.

Can we get access to their expense claims under the FOI?


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## Complainer (1 Dec 2008)

ubiquitous said:


> I am an auditor myself (private sector) and I am damn glad it was not me who signed the last Fás audit report. Had any private-sector auditor done so, they would now be facing serious questions on their knowledge of the transactions highlighted last week, leading probably to a rigorous investigation into their compliance in this case with professional standards, and the possibility of significant professional sanction at its conclusion. Its interesting that the C&AG are spared this discomfort. Another case of 4 legs good,... ?


Just curious as to why the C&AG are spared this discomfort. Wouldn't their staff be subject to the same professional standards from ICAI?



Caveat said:


> OK, that's one example from three and a half years ago.
> 
> It hardly supports your claim that "such payments would by no means be unusual at top levels in the private sector" does it?
> 
> I'm not saying these payments never happen, but I doubt they could be described as "by no means unusual"


http://www.independent.ie/business/...way-with-83642m-golden-handshake-1276326.html
[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
http://www.rte.ie/business//2002/1216/eircom.html
and even
[broken link removed]
I can keep googling if you like?


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## ubiquitous (1 Dec 2008)

Complainer said:


> Just curious as to why the C&AG are spared this discomfort. Wouldn't their staff be subject to the same professional standards from ICAI?


I'm curious about this myself. Perhaps someone in the know can comment.


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## Caveat (2 Dec 2008)

Complainer said:


> http://www.independent.ie/business/...way-with-83642m-golden-handshake-1276326.html
> [broken link removed]
> [broken link removed]
> http://www.rte.ie/business//2002/1216/eircom.html
> ...


 
I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that we were talking about people who resigned under controverisal circumstances, not just standard golden handshakes like the above. 

Including Maria Carey is stretching it a bit too if you ask me.


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## Purple (2 Dec 2008)

Caveat said:


> I has assumed (perhaps wrongly) that we were talking about people who resigned under controverisal circumstances, not just standard golden handshakes like the above.
> 
> Including Maria Carey is stretching it a bit too if you ask me.


Only 2 of the examples were Irish, one from a former semi-state and one real one. Neither resigned under controverisal circumstances


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