# Waste of delivering 9,000,000 pages in Irish language



## rabbit (8 May 2008)

Just got a 18 page book delivered by the friendly postman as part of his junk mail delivery ....its called " Getting it sorted - Resolving your complaints".    The postie was presumably delivering them to every house / dwelling / business in the country ?    Anyway , half the full colour book is in Irish.  What a waste of scare resources and how environmentally unfriendly can you get.   If every postal address in the country gets these 9 pages in Irish think of the waste.


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## truthseeker (8 May 2008)

There has been a glossy 'Preparing for Major Emergencies' one recently that really didnt tell you anything you didnt already know that was half in Irish also.


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## Ceist Beag (8 May 2008)

So rabbit is your problem with the full colour 18 page book or just with the fact that 9 pages were in Irish. What if it was an 18 page book in English, would you still feel as annoyed? We've already had lengthy discussions on the merits of Irish tranlsations on here before, have a read if ye want.


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## ClubMan (8 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> What a waste of scare resources


I'm surprised that there were any scare resources left after this one:


truthseeker said:


> There has been a glossy 'Preparing for Major Emergencies' one recently that really didnt tell you anything you didnt already know that was half in Irish also.


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## rabbit (8 May 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> So rabbit is your problem with the full colour 18 page book or just with the fact that 9 pages were in Irish.


 
One is bad enough, the two together is breaking the posties back.

Do think that printing that 9,000,000 - or even 18,000,000 and delivering them needlessly around the country , at a cost to you , me and the environment - is necessary ?


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## Ceist Beag (8 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> Do think that printing that 9,000,000 - or even 18,000,000 and delivering them needlessly around the country , at a cost to you , me and the environment - is necessary ?



Nope, I agree completely it is a total waste of money (as I believe was that ridiculous preparing for emergencies booklet). I just don't think the fact that half of it is in Irish is in any way relevant - I think the English half is just as much a waste of money!


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## truthseeker (8 May 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> Nope, I agree completely it is a total waste of money (as I believe was that ridiculous preparing for emergencies booklet). I just don't think the fact that half of it is in Irish is in any way relevant - I think the English half is just as much a waste of money!


 
The thing about the information in these booklets (whether or not in English or Irish) is that is doesnt need to be presented in a glossy printed book, a plain white A4 sheet would have sufficed. I was particularly irked by the references made in the Emergencies one that told you in the event of certain emergencies (a flood for example) that there was ANOTHER booklet that gave you the details on what to do!


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## DrMoriarty (8 May 2008)

I haven't received this 'Preparing for Major Emergencies' booklet yet, but I remember Mary Harney announcing two years ago that overcrowding in Irish A&E departments constituted a 'national emergency'. Is there anything in the booklet about that?


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## Vanilla (8 May 2008)

DrMoriarty said:


> I haven't received this 'Preparing for Major Emergencies' booklet yet, but I remember Mary Harney announcing two years ago that overcrowding in Irish A&E departments constituted a 'national emergency'. Is there anything in the booklet about that?


 
No, it was more about what to do in the event of a nuclear emergency. Close the windows and doors... and other inane stuff.


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## truthseeker (8 May 2008)

DrMoriarty said:


> I haven't received this 'Preparing for Major Emergencies' booklet yet, but I remember Mary Harney announcing two years ago that overcrowding in Irish A&E departments constituted a 'national emergency'. Is there anything in the booklet about that?


 
You can browse the complete waste of print and paper here: 
http://www.emergencyplanning.ie/downloads/Emergency-Handbook-English.pdf


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## Purple (8 May 2008)

Vanilla said:


> No, it was more about what to do in the event of a nuclear emergency. Close the windows and doors... and other inane stuff.



I haven't got mine yet so thanks for the tip.


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## DrMoriarty (8 May 2008)

I use this one.


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## rabbit (8 May 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> I just don't think the fact that half of it is in Irish is in any way relevant - I think the English half is just as much a waste of money!


 
lol because you think nobody reads English....nobody may ever want any of the contact details etc in the booklet ?

Having all the govt publication duplicated in Irish is a scandalous waste of money, ink and trees...and energy distributing them.


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## truthseeker (8 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> lol because you think nobody reads English....nobody may ever want any of the contact details etc in the booklet ?
> 
> Having all the govt publication duplicated in Irish is a scandalous waste of money, ink and trees...and energy distributing them.


 
But the same amount of money/trees and energy went into distribution even if it was only in english.


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## Ceist Beag (8 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> lol because you think nobody reads English



... and I said that where now?


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## rabbit (8 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> But the same amount of money/trees and energy went into distribution even if it was only in english.


 
No.  half the trees and ink would be used if it was in English only.   The fist 9 pages of the book are in English.  The last 9 pages are in Irish.


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## rabbit (8 May 2008)

Ceist Beag said:


> ... and I said that where now?


 
You said you " think the English half is just as much a waste of money!".
I think everyone is agreed the Irish half is a total waste of money.  However, I would think it safe to assume *some* people *will *get *some *use out of the information in the English language part of the An Post book....therefore how can you argue  it is just as much a waste of money ?


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## ClubMan (8 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> Just got a 18 page book delivered by the friendly postman as part of his junk mail delivery ....its called " Getting it sorted - Resolving your complaints".


Did the booklet explain how to resolve your complaint in this instance?


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## truthseeker (8 May 2008)

oh I understand you - its not like English written with Irish translation directly underneath it. Come to think of the the Emergencies one is the same type of layout.

Printing it in English is a complete waste of time/money, in Irish also is just more of a waste of time/money. Most people put junk mail like that directly in the bin regardless of what language its in.


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## jmayo (8 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> The thing about the information in these booklets (whether or not in English or Irish) is that is doesnt need to be presented in a glossy printed book, a plain white A4 sheet would have sufficed. I was particularly irked by the references made in the Emergencies one that told you in the event of certain emergencies (a flood for example) that there was ANOTHER booklet that gave you the details on what to do!



No no they are only going to send out another booklet when something like a pantemic (bird flu etc) or maybe nuclear fallout is about to hit us.
Of course they also say that you should refrain from going out and being near people, so not sure what happens if the *transistion year student* that writes these things happens to have the flu that week and can't go in.

And then we wonder why other nations make Irish jokes


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## Teabag (8 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> One is bad enough, the two together is breaking the posties back.
> 
> Do think that printing that 9,000,000 - or even 18,000,000 and delivering them needlessly around the country , at a cost to you , me and the environment - is necessary ?



I completely agree with you rabbit. Total waste of money/trees.
But if the booklet had no Irish section in it, there would be war !


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## rabbit (8 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Most people put junk mail like that directly in the bin regardless of what language its in.


True, but as I said I would think it safe to assume *some* people - however few -  *will *get *some *use out of the information in the English language part of the An Post book....therefore how can anyone argue it is just as much a waste of money ? The point is, half the full colour book is in Irish. If every postal address in the country gets these extra 9 pages in Irish what a waste of trees and energy.


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## Ceist Beag (8 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> You said you " think the English half is just as much a waste of money!".
> I think everyone is agreed the Irish half is a total waste of money.  However, I would think it safe to assume *some* people *will *get *some *use out of the information in the English language part of the An Post book....therefore how can you argue  it is just as much a waste of money ?


Quite simple - as truthseeker put it they could have very easily put all this information into one A4 sheet in black and white (and in both English and Irish). I don't agree with you that it's ok to have it in English but scandalous to have it in Irish - so think you're wrong to speak on everyone's behalf there! As I said there has been a previous discussion on the merits of translations so I don't want to go over all that again.


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## rabbit (8 May 2008)

Teabag said:


> I completely agree with you rabbit. Total waste of money/trees.
> But if the booklet had no Irish section in it, there would be war !


 
Glad someone agrees with me.   However giving in to the threat of war is not great .......lets help the environment and halve govt printing costs instead


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## truthseeker (8 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> Glad someone agrees with me. However giving in to the threat of war is not great .......lets help the environment and halve govt printing costs instead


 
If it was in black and white on a plain A4 sheet the printing costs would be a fraction of the cost of the glossy colour version.


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## DrMoriarty (8 May 2008)

I see it's also available in Chinese, Russian, Polish and Braille — and in an 'easy to read' version.

I'm beginning to think there's some kind of sinister social engineering going on here...


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## MrMan (8 May 2008)

> I think everyone is agreed the Irish half is a total waste of money. However, I would think it safe to assume some people will get some use out of the information in the English language part of the An Post book....therefore how can you argue it is just as much a waste of money ?



By that logic, if only some people will read the english text, you can also assume that some people will read the Irish text. Overall its a waste of time, but to suggest that its only the Irish bit that is a waste is incorrect in my opinion.



> Glad someone agrees with me. However giving in to the threat of war is not great .......lets help the environment and halve govt printing costs instead


Funny how people suggest that this is a threat to the environment but probably turn a blind eye to the things that are of convenience to them.


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## ClubMan (8 May 2008)

DrMoriarty said:


> I see it's also available in Chinese, Russian, Polish and Braille — and in an 'easy to read' version.


_
See Peter run. Peter runs away from the nuclear fallout. Run, Peter, run. Faster, Peter, faster. No - not that way you fool!

New words on this page: "nuclear", "fallout"






_


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## rabbit (8 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> By that logic, if only some people will read the english text, you can also assume that some people will read the Irish text.


 
Far far less.   Ever go in to a newsagent and see the quantity of newspapers + magazines sold in the Irish language.


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## Green (8 May 2008)

Thinking about this in its broader context its how Government communicates with the people, perhaps we should stop advertising in news ppaers ans delivering leaflets into doors and just put everything (in any language you like) on a website, give those who dont have access to pc's, access to greater pc in local libraries, or other govt offices.


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## Teabag (8 May 2008)

This an issue of practicality and taxpayer value, not an Irishness competition.

All the money/paper spent on making the Irish portion of this booklet will have zero impact on the penetration of the Irish language in this country.


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## MrMan (8 May 2008)

> All the money/paper spent on making the Irish portion of this booklet will have zero impact on the penetration of the Irish language in this country



Yes and I would imagine that the english literature has little or no impact on its 'readership', so all in all we should have saved on the entire piece.



> Far far less. Ever go in to a newsagent and see the quantity of newspapers + magazines sold in the Irish language.



So maybe we should be encouraging the use of the language then and not diminishing it further. Our language isn't a hindrance its part of our culture and heritage, it would be nice to see it re-emerge as a widely spoken language on our island.


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## truthseeker (8 May 2008)

Yawn.....this thread is turning into the Great Irish Debate again..........zzzz......zzzzz.......zzz.......


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## MrMan (8 May 2008)

> Yawn.....this thread is turning into the Great Irish Debate again..........zzzz......zzzzz.......zzz.......



Maybe you should complain to the appropriate authority and have it removed!


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## truthseeker (8 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> Maybe you should complain to the appropriate authority and have it removed!


 
Ah - but this one doesnt offend me. It just bores me


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## MrMan (8 May 2008)

You're right it is boring, it just gets to me that some people find that spending money on using the language is more offensive than the actual waste of money in general. Like someone pointed out if it was 18 pages of english there would be no outcry, just seems silly.


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## truthseeker (8 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> You're right it is boring, it just gets to me that some people find that spending money on using the language is more offensive than the actual waste of money in general. Like someone pointed out if it was 18 pages of english there would be no outcry, just seems silly.


 
I couldnt care less if it was in Mandarin, at the end of the day the government dont need to print basic (pretty useless) info in high glossy booklets - its not like the high gloss makes people more likely to read it!


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## rabbit (8 May 2008)

Teabag said:


> This an issue of practicality and taxpayer value, not an Irishness competition.
> 
> All the money/paper spent on making the Irish portion of this booklet will have zero impact on the penetration of the Irish language in this country.


 
Exactly.    Printing and distributing 9,000,000 or more *extra* pages is simply a waste and is harmful to the environment.   Imagine calculating all the trees and ink used to print all the govt publications in duplicate.


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## z103 (8 May 2008)

> So maybe we should be encouraging the use of the language then and not diminishing it further. Our language isn't a hindrance its part of our culture and heritage, it would be nice to see it re-emerge as a widely spoken language on our island.


That would be a step backwards.
Not being able to understand someone is a hindrance.

Irish language should be treated like Irish music. If people want it they can have it. It shouldn't be forced onto everyone, and certainly not at taxpayers' expense.


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## Vanilla (8 May 2008)

Maybe we should focus on what _should _have been in the booklet. For example what to do with our spare time now that the national pastime of upsizing, downsizing, buying abroad, renovating, buying a holiday home or buying a buy to let is gone caput. Or a general piece on when it is acceptable to spit ( never) or indeed tut tut about the number of foreign nationals ( starting with 'I'm not a racist but...) ( again please never). Or even oral hygiene. All much more useful IMO.


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## Complainer (8 May 2008)

DrMoriarty said:


> I see it's also available in Chinese, Russian, Polish and Braille — and in an 'easy to read' version.
> 
> I'm beginning to think there's some kind of sinister social engineering going on here...


Do you consider meeting the needs of people with disabilities (blind people, people with learning disabilities) to be 'sinister social engineering'?


ClubMan said:


> _
> See Peter run. Peter runs away from the nuclear fallout. Run, Peter, run. Faster, Peter, faster. No - not that way you fool!
> 
> New words on this page: "nuclear", "fallout"
> _


I'm guessing that you don't really mean to cause offence to people with learning disabilities who would be using easy to read versions with this comment. Perhaps you'd like to research easy-to-read versions a bit more before you slag them off?


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## DrMoriarty (8 May 2008)

Complainer said:


> Do you consider meeting the needs of people with disabilities (blind people, people with learning disabilities) to be 'sinister social engineering'?


 Of course not, no more (nor less) than the provision of information to Chinese, Russian and Polish speakers. 
My remark was intended as a flippant aside in a _Letting Off Steam_ thread about the waste of public resources.

I wish that our government departments and other publicly funded services would do more to address meaningfully the needs of people with disabilities, instead of indulging in costly and ineffectual PR exercises of the kind represented by these brochures.


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## Green (9 May 2008)

DrMoriarty said:


> I wish that our government departments and other publicly funded services would do more to address meaningfully the needs of people with disabilities, instead of indulging in costly and ineffectual PR exercises of the kind represented by these brochures.


 
Yes, I wish they would too, but you must remember that Govt. Depts and agencies do what Govt want, and who put the Govt where it is? oh yes, I get it now.............................


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## MrMan (9 May 2008)

> Not being able to understand someone is a hindrance.



thats why you learn the language.



> Irish language should be treated like Irish music. If people want it they can have it. It shouldn't be forced onto everyone, and certainly not at taxpayers' expense.


Nothing should be forced upon people and nothing should be forced to stop either. I don't agree with such publications but i do agree that the language should be encouraged to be used again.


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

If all the govt. publications in Irish language - which nobody really reads - were stacked on top of each other, they would reach from here to the moon and back seventeen times.   

Great use of  resources / wood / ink / energy distributing them etc.

Shame on everyone involved.


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## z103 (9 May 2008)

> Nothing should be forced upon people and nothing should be forced to stop either.


Well there is a contradiction there. Should something that is being forced upon people be 'forced to stop'.



> If all the govt. publications in Irish language - which nobody really reads - were stacked on top of each other, they would reach from here to the moon and back seventeen times.


Maybe we should have done that instead. Ireland would have had a space programme.


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

At least the US space programme had spin offs for technology etc 


Wasting money on Irish language publications which nobody reads only wastes money and harms the environment.

I am sure more time was wasted in Ireland over the  decades trying to force Irish in to kids than was ever spend on any space programme anywhere.


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## Jock04 (9 May 2008)

Maybe I'll understand one day, but I just don't get the hatred of your native tongue here.
It maybe wasn't taught very well in the past, and maybe - God help us- there's no profit in it, but it's part of what you are. 
I haven't heard the French, Germans et al saying they should do away with their native tongue, just because international business and supporting foreign soccer teams is mainly done in English.


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> I am sure more time was wasted in Ireland over the  decades trying to force Irish in to kids than was ever spend on any space programme anywhere.


Really? Care to substantiate that - e.g. money spent on teaching _Irish _versus, say, the _US _or _USSR _space programmes?


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## MrMan (9 May 2008)

> Well there is a contradiction there. Should something that is being forced upon people be 'forced to stop'.



My point was 'force' should not be used.



> Wasting money on Irish language publications which nobody reads only wastes money and harms the environment.



I wouldn't have thought that the space programmes were exactly environmentally friendly. Plus the billions that are spent annually to fund very little progress would tend to go against your argument. If the main point of your argument is environmentally based, I think there are far worse offenders for you to concentrate your energy on.



> but I just don't get the hatred of your native tongue here.


Either do I , sometimes i just think its lazy and ignorant for people to so casually disregard their culture.


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> I wouldn't have thought that the space programmes were exactly environmentally friendly. .


 
No, but at least there were spin off benefits.  I remember having a calculator when I was youing , and if it were not for the r+d spent in the 60's I do not think we would have had calculators in the late seventies.
Likewise satellites etc.    

Anyway I do not want the argument to go off on a tangent in to space !  My point was "If all the govt. publications in Irish language - which nobody really reads - were stacked on top of each other, they would reach from here to the moon and back seventeen times. Great use of resources / wood / ink / energy distributing them etc."


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Really? Care to substantiate that - e.g. money spent on teaching _Irish _versus, say, the _US _or _USSR _space programmes?


I said time ( " I am sure more time was wasted in Ireland over the decades trying to force Irish in to kids than was ever spend on any space programme anywhere."), not money.    At a guesstimate, say an hour a day by say 600,000 people ( who are engaged in teaching or being taught ) is a hell of a lot of time.  600,000 hours a day is equivalent to 75,000 people working an eight hour day....I doubt if either the US or USSR space programme absorbed that much time but I am open to correction.


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> I said time, not money.  Say an hour a day by say 600,000 people is a hell of a lot of time.


Even measured in man/person days of work I would be very surprised if a space programme did not come out on top. But if you have some evidence that this is not the case feel free to cite it.


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Even measured in man/person days of work I would be very surprised if a space programme did not come out on top.


 
You think more than 75,000 people a day worked 8 hour days on the space programme ?

To get back to the point, my point was "If all the govt. publications in Irish language - which nobody really reads - were stacked on top of each other, they would reach from here to the moon and back seventeen times. Great use of resources / wood / ink / energy distributing them etc."


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## truthseeker (9 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> You think more than 75,000 people a day worked 8 hour days on the space programme ?


 
Yes - when you take into account the teams designing, building, testing the spacecrafts themselves, government dapartments involved, media, R&D teams, astronauts plus training, mission control, building the facilities from which the space crafts themselves were launched, scientists involved from start to finish, the fact that many people involved would have worked far longer than 8 hour days etc.... I would think its quite possible that more man hours were spent on it. 
And each of the above would have commanded a higher salary than someone teaching Irish so its also quite possible that it cost a lot more - you dont get whole teams of world class scientists and engineers working cheap.


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> "If all the govt. publications in Irish language - which nobody really reads - were stacked on top of each other, they would reach from here to the moon and back seventeen times. "


How did you work this out? Maybe that *IS *the _Irish _space programme? No need for dem new fangled carbon nanotubes begob! We'll build our space elevator from books!


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## bullbars (9 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> I wouldn't have thought that the space programmes were exactly environmentally friendly. Plus the billions that are spent annually to fund very little progress would tend to go against your argument. If the main point of your argument is environmentally based, I think there are far worse offenders for you to concentrate your energy on.
> 
> Either do I , sometimes i just think its lazy and ignorant for people to so casually disregard their culture.


 
I think you've hit the nail on the head Mr Man. Our economy has come so far that people quickly forget the past and what it took to get us where we are today. Many european children are bi-lingual from an early age and have no problem with it. 

I note there was no protest against the other 5 or 6 useless leaflets, in english/polish/chinese or any language for that matter, that are constantly shoved through the post box. 

The majority of those advances for the space program and indeed the majority of the appliances we use each day stemmed from the second world war so should we give that another crack of the whip and see what handy appliances it yields.


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## bullbars (9 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> How did you work this out? Maybe that *IS *the _Irish _space programme? No need for dem new fangled carbon nanotubes begob! We'll build our space elevator from books!


 
The secrets out now!


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## Purple (9 May 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Yes - when you take into account the teams designing, building, testing the spacecrafts themselves, government dapartments involved, media, R&D teams, astronauts plus training, mission control, building the facilities from which the space crafts themselves were launched, scientists involved from start to finish, the fact that many people involved would have worked far longer than 8 hour days etc.... I would think its quite possible that more man hours were spent on it.
> And each of the above would have commanded a higher salary than someone teaching Irish so its also quite possible that it cost a lot more - you dont get whole teams of world class scientists and engineers working cheap.



I think it's more than quite possible. For example over 40'000 people worked on the Manhatten Project (to produce the first H-Bomb). 
NASA spent over $18.5 billion in 2007. I don't think we spend quite that much teaching Irish (or printing Irish literature).


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## bullbars (9 May 2008)

Purple said:


> I think it's more than quite possible. For example over 40'000 people worked on the Manhatten Project (to produce the first H-Bomb).
> NASA spent over $18.5 billion in 2007. I don't think we spend quite that much teaching Irish (or printing Irish literature).


 
Agreed, its nothing more an anti-Irish language attitude masquerading as an environmentally friendly front.


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

So you do not think it a "Waste  delivering the 9,000,000 pages in Irish language " , along with all the other govt publications printed twice ?    What about all the trees / paper / ink / enegy / fuel used delivering them ?   If people wanted to read Irish lasnguage, they could buy Irish language newspapers or magazines ....and I have never seen anyone do that.


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## ClubMan (9 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> Irish lasnguage


Sounds nice - do you have the recipe?


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## Jock04 (9 May 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Sounds nice - do you have the recipe?


 
As Gaeilge?         

(by the way, Irish language newspapers seem to sell pretty well in my local shop............)


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## Ceist Beag (9 May 2008)

Jock04 said:


> (by the way, Irish language newspapers seem to sell pretty well in my local shop............)



Surely not Jock04 - imagine that - the fact that certain posters have never seen anyone buy these should be enough to be able to draw the conclusion that the language is a waste of time and effort (not to mention a shameful waste of money) ... shouldn't it?


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## bullbars (9 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> So you do not think it a "Waste delivering the 9,000,000 pages in Irish language " , along with all the other govt publications printed twice ? What about all the trees / paper / ink / enegy / fuel used delivering them ? If people wanted to read Irish lasnguage, they could buy Irish language newspapers or magazines ....and I have never seen anyone do that.


 
Not at all. Its our language and heritage and should be protected & preserved. Its an anti-Irish language issue you have and nothing more. Why not decrease the font size on the English pages to save paper ink etc.... That argument could be thrashed out to no end, whatever language and what ever the content of the document. If people wanted to read English they could buy newspapers or magazines but this isnt about wanting to read Irish or English. Its a government publication in both our official languages. Just because people were too lazy to learn their native language or have any sense of national pride in who we are doesnt mean we should bury it.


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

Jock04 said:


> by the way, Irish language newspapers seem to sell pretty well in my local shop............


 
Really? I have been in every county in Ireland over many decades and never saw anyone at a newsagents buying one. I never heard anyone speaking Irish either, except the odd phrase in the middle of a sentence like "cupla focall". Let those who want to speak it do so. I think, like most people I know, that spending so much money on govt publications in Irish is scandalous, when people are on hospital trolleys etc


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

bullbars said:


> Just because people were too lazy to learn their native language or have any sense of national pride in who we are doesnt mean we should bury it.


 
so you think people like me are / were lazy, or do not have national pride.  Next you will say we are not really Irish !


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## Ceist Beag (9 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> Really? I have been in every county in Ireland over many decades and never saw anyone at a newsagents buying one. I never heard anyone speaking Irish either, except the odd phrase in the middle of a sentence like "cupla focall".



Maith thú coinín, you've just proven the point Jock04, bullbars and myself have been trying to point out - your issue is a problem with the Irish language, nothing to do with waste of taxpayers money agus anois tá sé cruthaigh agat fhéin.


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

Not at all.  I merely pointed out how little Irish is actually used ...to show the absurdity of wasting so much money and energy on printing everything twice....not to mention the cost to the environment.


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## MrMan (9 May 2008)

> Not at all. I merely pointed out how little Irish is actually used ...to show the absurdity of wasting so much money and energy on printing everything twice....not to mention the cost to the environment



So to summarise, spending money on the publication of government literature in Ireland is a threat to the environment and is also partly responsible for the lack of hospital beds.



> so you think people like me are / were lazy, or do not have national pride. Next you will say we are not really Irish !



I don't know where your from, but half the planet seems to be Irish, its only the actual occupants that seem to have a problem which lies close to embarrassment when it comes to our rich heritage. If you have indeed national pride, you would look at all elements that are fundamentally Irish with pride and our native language is definitely that.


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## rabbit (9 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> So to summarise, spending money on the publication of government literature in Ireland is a threat to the environment and is also partly responsible for the lack of hospital beds.


 
lol who said that ?     Doubling the quantity of printed paper adds up to a hell of a lot of  trees, ink and energy / distribution costs.   That is my point.  I am a taxpayer the same as you.   Like most people in this country, I never read Irish.   Certainly not Irish junk mail.  If there was a demand for same do you not think someone other than the govt would be doing it too ?    Or is it just taxpayers money you like to see wasted ?


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## MrMan (9 May 2008)

> lol who said that ? Doubling the quantity of printed paper adds up to a hell of a lot of trees, ink and energy / distribution costs.



Yes so you are saying printing these irish publications is environmentally unfriendly. 



> Certainly not Irish junk mail


What you should have said was 'like most people I never read junk mail' what has irish got to do with it.



> Or is it just taxpayers money you like to see wasted ?



I've said already that I feel the entire publication is a waste and i would rather they spend the money on teaching the language properly so that hopefully in 20 years the next generation can have their arguments in both languages!


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## cork (10 May 2008)

> I am a taxpayer the same as you. Like most people in this country, I never read Irish. Certainly not Irish junk mail. If there was a demand for same do you not think someone other than the govt would be doing it too ? Or is it just taxpayers money you like to see wasted ?


 
We live in Ireland. Irish is this countrys first official language.

Of course - publications have to be available in Irish.

I would have a personal preference for services being available in Irish over publications. 

But - as a method of saving money - we could utilise public libaries more so people can go and get information. Mailing out stuff is a bit old fashioned.


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## rabbit (10 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> Yes so you are saying printing these irish publications is environmentally unfriendly.
> 
> 
> What you should have said was 'like most people I never read junk mail' what has irish got to do with it.


 

You did not read what I wrote
"Doubling the quantity of printed paper adds up to a hell of a lot of trees, ink and energy / distribution costs. That is my point. I am a taxpayer the same as you. Like most people in this country, I never read Irish. Certainly not Irish junk mail. If there was a demand for same do you not think someone other than the govt would be doing it too ? Or is it just taxpayers money you like to see wasted ?"   The US govt could print all its literature and publications and everything it prints in  native American as well as English, and double its quantity of print as well, and that would be a waste too. 

If there was a demand for junk mail in the Irish language there would be more than the Irish govt - paid by you and me - doing it.


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## cork (11 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> Or is it just taxpayers money you like to see wasted ?"


 
By not printing material in the first language of this state - this does not eliminate the massive inefficency in our public sector.

Surveys carried out indicate that there is massive support for the language.

One of Brian Cowens aims is the Irish Language. 

We should expect a world class bi-lingual public sector.

By not printing material in our first language would be a slur on us as a nation.

English is this country's 2nd official language.

What political support have any moves not to print material in Irish?

Zero?


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## z103 (11 May 2008)

> By not printing material in the first language of this state - this does not eliminate the massive inefficency in our public sector.


Who decided that Irish is the 'first language' of the State? It should be English, because more people speak it.



> Surveys carried out indicate that there is massive support for the language.


Source?


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## Purple (11 May 2008)

leghorn said:


> Source?



They are in Irish; you wouldn't understand them (and either would I).


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## Vanilla (11 May 2008)

Purple said:


> They are in Irish; you wouldn't understand them (and either would I).


 
Try getting your english straight first... ( either or, neither nor).


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## Purple (11 May 2008)

Vanilla said:


> Try getting your english straight first... ( either or, neither nor).



Doh!


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## Vanilla (11 May 2008)

And now I'm waiting for someone to dissect my posts and correct my english...it's really not worthwhile making a grammatical correction on AAM 'cause it generally comes back to bite you on the...


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## Purple (11 May 2008)

Vanilla said:


> And now I'm waiting for someone to dissect my posts and correct my english...it's really not worthwhile making a grammatical correction on AAM 'cause it generally comes back to bite you on the...



Don't wate on me cause I dunno whats right nor rong half the time so I dont.


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## MrMan (12 May 2008)

> If there was a demand for junk mail in the Irish language there would be more than the Irish govt - paid by you and me - doing it.



I think you'll find the demand for junk mail is zero in all languages.


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## Simeon (12 May 2008)

Could some brave soul not sue this particular government department for littering, wasting a government employee's time and in general causing irritation to 99.5% of the population?


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## rabbit (12 May 2008)

Simeon said:


> Could some brave soul not sue this particular government department for littering, wasting a government employee's time and in general causing irritation to 99.5% of the population?


 
Unfortunately the manpower involved in translating, printing + distributing those 9 million pages in Irish alone is more than "a government employee"


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## MrMan (12 May 2008)

> Unfortunately the manpower involved in translating, printing + distributing those 9 million pages in Irish alone is more than "a government employee"



I think the extra manpower is only needed for the translation(s), as they will be handled by the same printer and distributed at the same time.


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## ubiquitous (12 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> I think the extra manpower is only needed for the translation(s), as they will be handled by the same printer and distributed at the same time.



So you mean to say that if I want to print and distribute a circular, the printing and distribution costs will not increase even if I decide I want to double the number of pages in the circular?


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## bullbars (12 May 2008)

I dont think that is what was stated at all by MrMan, the only increase he mentioned was manpower. Costs would obviously be increased to include the Irish section.


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## rabbit (12 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> I think the extra manpower is only needed for the translation(s), as they will be handled by the same printer and distributed at the same time.


 
My poor postmans back was nearly broken because he had to distribute a pile of 18 page books instead of 9 page books.   There are bound to be extra manpower costs along the chain involved beside translation along the chain when the govt wanted 18 page books instead of 9 page books


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## bullbars (12 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> My poor postmans back was nearly broken because he had to distribute a pile of 18 page books instead of 9 page books. There are bound to be extra manpower costs along the chain involved beside translation along the chain when the govt wanted 18 page books instead of 9 page books


 
This argument gets more ridiculous as you go on. You now have concerns for your poor postman. Does the load he has to carry correspond to the amount of pages in each book or by the weight he could carry? If the booklets were printed in English only would he have been handed twice the amount to deliver.
It started as an environmental issue,now your worried about your poor postman? Its an anti Irish language quible you have and nothing more.


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## rabbit (12 May 2008)

bullbars said:


> You now have concerns for your poor postman.


 
I sure do. He was the one who complained most about having to deliver the duplicate junk mail pages in a language virtually nobody was going to read... and as he correctly said it not only was literally a pain for him to deliver all that unecessary weight , but it has environmental and cost implications as well.  Its not an anti-langauage quible he or I has - people are welcome to speak Chinese if they want in Ireland - oopps in fact, more do than speak Irish. lol


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## bullbars (12 May 2008)

rabbit said:


> I sure do. He was the one who complained most about having to deliver the duplicate junk mail pages in a language virtually nobody was going to read...


 
I'd say very few read the english section.

I'm sure he singled out the extra pages of the Irish section of this particular booklet for critiscism but is only too happy to deliver the rest of the useless ads/leaflets/junk that is sent out each day.


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## rabbit (12 May 2008)

bullbars said:


> I'd say very few read the english section.
> 
> I'm sure he singled out the extra pages of the Irish section of this particular booklet for critiscism but is only too happy to deliver the rest of the useless ads/leaflets/junk that is sent out each day.


 

I am sure far less would glance through or read the Irish language section than the English language section.    Its his job to deliver what his bosses give him to deliver, but obviously having to deliver 18 pages instead of 9 does add up ....not just in  handling / distribution / printing / environmental costs etc.


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## MrMan (13 May 2008)

> I dont think that is what was stated at all by MrMan, the only increase he mentioned was manpower. Costs would obviously be increased to include the Irish section.


Thats it thanks, as for the postman remark, i'm starting to think that rabbit might be trolling.


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## rabbit (13 May 2008)

MrMan, if you think a postman is not entitled to an opinion on anything, that is your problem, not his.  Anyway, I have made my point, and have more to do than this , so I am not going to debate this thread any more.  Thank you.


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## amtc (13 May 2008)

check the requirements of the Official Languages Act, 2005!


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## MrMan (14 May 2008)

> MrMan, if you think a postman is not entitled to an opinion on anything, that is your problem, not his.



Ya thats exactly what I said, and I think you are proving my last point.


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## ClubMan (14 May 2008)

_rabbit _is no longer able to post here for the moment.


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## cork (14 May 2008)

leghorn said:


> Who decided that Irish is the 'first language' of the State? It should be English, because more people speak it.


 
The Irish public voted in out constitution in 1937- a document that served this country well.


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## Teabag (14 May 2008)

cork said:


> The Irish public voted in out constitution in 1937- a document that served this country well.



Maybe we should change the constitution to reflect the reality of how people choose to live in the state, and officially promote English to the first national language of the state. I dont think that Irish and EU taxpayers should pay for people to feel an enhanced level of self esteem by proving to others that they are not English. Its nationalism gone mad.

As for culture, almost everyones points of cultural reference are through the English language. It would more akin to losing an identity than 'gaining' one at this stage to promote Irish as a prime language now.


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## MrMan (14 May 2008)

> Maybe we should change the constitution to reflect the reality of how people choose to live in the state, and officially promote English to the first national language of the state.



And maybe we should just change our name while we're at it.


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## Teabag (14 May 2008)

MrMan said:


> And maybe we should just change our name while we're at it.



Naw, I am quite happy with Teabag thanks !


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## cork (14 May 2008)

Teabag said:


> Maybe we should change the constitution to reflect the reality of how people choose to live in the state, and officially promote English to the first national language of the state. I dont think that Irish and EU taxpayers should pay for people to feel an enhanced level of self esteem by proving to others that they are not English. Its nationalism gone mad..


 
No - Its democracy.

We live in Ireland and have our own culture.

Why cannot we have many languages. Why accept being mono-lingual?

Are we just too bone lazy to learn other languages?

Fair play to Des Bishop to learn the language.

Hopefully our public sector and people will take note.


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## amtc (15 May 2008)

did no-one get what i said.
it's a requirement of the Official Languages Act 2005


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