# New House - Vents



## bertson (2 Nov 2005)

Hi,
We recently moved into our new bungalow


Each room has an air vent. The problem being is that the house doesn't have trees around it yet, so no shelter. The draft from the air vents is quite strong, so there is a constant breeze.

Should there be anything between the exterior vent cover and the internal vent cover.??

Its so breezy that I am contimplating sealing the bedroom and sitting room vents

Any suggestions welcome

B


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## RainyDay (2 Nov 2005)

bertson said:
			
		

> Its so breezy that I am contimplating sealing the bedroom and sitting room vents
> 
> Any suggestions welcome


Be very, very careful. Watch the ads with tall, blonde Duncan on RTE pointing out the importance of ventilation. People have died from carbon poisoning as a result of blocking up vents.


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## Round Tuit (2 Nov 2005)

I'm in a 3 year old own door apartment with air vents only from 2 landlocked bathroom extractor fans and in the gas cupboard. None in bedrooms (except one bedroom has those vent thingies in the windows) or living area/kitchen. Count yourself lucky.


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## bertson (2 Nov 2005)

I know thye vents are a must, but the feckin things make heating pointless


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## stobear (2 Nov 2005)

Can you replace them with the ones that slide open and shut? I had them before but did notice on a very wind night they tended to rattle a little bit, maybe they are not available anymore?


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## terrysgirl33 (2 Nov 2005)

We got the ones that slide about a month ago in a diy shop in Dublin (one of the big ones, but I can't remember name...).


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## ClubMan (2 Nov 2005)

Vents are there for a reason and should not really be closed off even temporarily!


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## z102 (2 Nov 2005)

If you install a propper boiler-one that has it's own independent air supply- and if you close the fire places for good than you won't need air vents.


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## Pollock (3 Nov 2005)

I put trickle vents on the windows and abandoned the idea of wall vents. Changing the covers to ones with a sliding open/close control that works should sort your problem though.


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## Carpenter (3 Nov 2005)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> you won't need air vents.


 
Contrary to Irish Building Regulations, Part F of the Second Schedule to the Building Regulations 2002?


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## BraveInca (3 Nov 2005)

Our house has no vents in the bedrooms. Built in the 80's - we bought last year. Looking at the neighbours, none of them appear to have vents either. 

Should we be getting them installed? We have a fireplace in occasional use and an external oil boiler. 

Has anyone paid a builder to install vents only? Any idea of costs?


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## Carpenter (3 Nov 2005)

Your house was built pre Irish building Regulations and whether vents were fitted to houses built during that time was largely a matter of personal preference on the part of the builder and cost also of course.  If you have double glazing, weather sealed doors etc you would benefit from having vents fitted, esecially if you notice problems with condensation within the dwelling or poor draw on the chimney flue.  Retro-fitting vents is quite straightforward nowadays with the advent of core drilling.  A core drill can be used to drill a 100mm or 150mm diameter hole in the external wall, this is then sleeeved with a short length of uPVC pipe, grilles are then fitted to each face of the wall, internally and externally.  The worst aspect of the job is the dust created, but if the cores are drilled from the outside face in this is minimised especially if done with care.  You could probably ask a tradesperson to core the holes alone for about €75 per hole (dependant on wall construction and thickness) and do the remainder of the work yourself.  Thousands of dwellings were built pre Regulations without permanent background ventilation, so weigh up the cost and the perceived benefit.  Personally I'd prefer to have proper background ventilation, in addition to improving the draw on a solid fule open fire it would also impact on the effectiveness of any extract fans fitted in the house (kitchen, bathroom etc.).


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## Sherman (3 Nov 2005)

Carpenter, what's a core drill? Can you hire them, and if so are they easy for the amateur to use?

I have 9inch solid block walls in my 1940's house and want to install vents in the bedrooms - I was just going to drill several holes through the wall with a long drill bit, knock out the waste, and put in airbricks. Is the core drill better/easier?

Thanks in advance.


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## Carpenter (3 Nov 2005)

Hi Sherman,

A core drill is like a hole saw, basically a drill bit with a cylinder attached.  On the end of the steel cylinder are a series of tungsten carbide teeth which act like a saw and cut the masonry.  You could do the job as you describe with a long drill bit but you'll probably burn out your drill with the number of holes you'll have to drill, it's labour intensive (very) and is messy.  If you have more than 1 vent hole to drill you'd be better off hiring a core drill.


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## BraveInca (3 Nov 2005)

Thanks for the info carpenter. Are there any possible structural implications for drilling holes in load-bearing external walls though?


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## Vanilla (3 Nov 2005)

If you're worried about not having vents, perhaps you could buy one of those special detectors- we have them at home ( we do have vents, but its a precaution) and in my office( very old building, no vents as such, plenty of drafts though, especially on a day like today!). I suppose they detect carbon monoxide?


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## Carpenter (3 Nov 2005)

Braveinca

I'm not an engineer but for conventioanl brick/ blockwork construction coring up to 150mm diameter should not pose a problem, it's not normal practice to incorporate a structural lintol over such a small ope in any case.  A neatly executed circular core would not significantly affect the structural fabric of the wall- but care must be taken in relation to their location relative to windows/ opes lintols etc.  If in doubt consult any experienced tradesperson.


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## z102 (4 Nov 2005)

Hi Carpenter ! 
The building regulations demand adequate ventilation, but certainly no holes in the walls. No home would stand a blower door test if punctured. Any energy rating pass for a home where the wind blows through -as explained by the original poster- would be useless. Adequate ventilation could be arranged in many ways, for example by windows....The holes in the wall are a cheap solution used by builders who want to cut corners without breaking the rules.


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## ClubMan (5 Nov 2005)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> The holes in the wall are a cheap solution used by builders who want to cut corners without breaking the rules.


Can you explain this please? Our house (1995 build) has holes in the top corner of the walls in each room covered with plastic vents. My mother's house (1950s build) is the same. Is this really a cheap way to implement ventilation and, if so, what are the alternatives either (a) at build time or (b) after the fact? Thanks.


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## Carpenter (5 Nov 2005)

Heinbloed, I feel you are being somewhat pedantic with your last point.  Building Regs demand (passive) background ventilation equivalent to 6500mm2 per habitable room (kitchens and utilities/ shower rooms and bathrooms have different requirements- mechanical and rapid ventilation required also).  This is most easily and effectively obtained by use of "hole in wall" ventilators.  Irish homes are certainly not constructed as airtight and would have some passive air infiltration through the building fabric of itself, but unlikely to amount to 6500mm2 per room.  No builder/ developer in Ireland would contemplate building a house first, testing for passive air infiltration and then deciding whether the requirements for passive ventilation were being met by infiltration through the building fabric alone.  However the Technical Guidance Docs. in the Build. Regs. are a guide only and not the sole and exclusive means by which to satisfy the requirements of the Regulations.  Most dwellings are not constructed in factory like assembly conditions where things like air infiltration can be monitored so for the moment the TGDs offer the best minimum requirements.


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## z102 (5 Nov 2005)

Builders know well about the rules that an adequate ventilation is required. Back in the old times people heated their houses with the aid of uncontrolled combustion, usually here in Ireland that was the open fire. An uncontrolled combustion can release carbon monoxyde.To avoid the silent death of the ocupiers by suffication-or at least to give them a chance of survival- these vents made fully sense.
But nowadays we have central heating and either good boilers running independantly from an air supply via the house/room or we use separate boiler rooms in place. So there is absolutely no use for vents/holes inthe walls with the aim to avoid carbonmonoxide poisening. Of course if there is some other source of uncontrolled combustion present-like open fires as back in the old times-a hole in the wall is a must.
But nowadays? No open fire is necessary to heat the room/house....
So why still building walls with holes in them ? Builders are aware of the minimum requirements for ventilation. To achive these minimum requirements one could build in large windows that can be opened. Opened either fully to ventilate the room rapidly or opened a little bit for trickle ventilation.To stay in tunes with the building regulations the windows would have to be large with "swing open" frames (6500mm2/m2 floor space). These cost more money as small picture windows with a little flap at the top.That is the simple reason why these holes in the wall are still used, combined with the reason of course that cheap heating systems from the beginning of industrialisation are still used. 
For the bricklayer's wages it won't make much difference if he puts a metall frame in place or a brick, it costs as much time i.e.money.
I lived myself for a while in a house build in the late 80s . Some rooms had such a little window opening that air vents where necessarry, several fillings of the oiltank per year where necessarry to keep that house (and all the others in the street) warm. Just because the builder saved a few bobs on proper windows and heating systems.                                                                                        And to Carpenter:When I said to the original poster bertson that holes in the wall ("air vents") can be filled for good as long as there is no carbon monoxyde source you answered that this was against the building regulations.Now as long as there is adequat ventilation via the windows on demand this step of closing the vents is by no means against building regulations.
As far as I remember the building regulations demand a draft free house to conserve energy and to make the occupier happy ,so the existing arrangement of bertson's "air vents" are actually against the building regulations, esp.since bertson has stated that heating doesn't make much sense since the heat is faster blown out than created ("....making heating pointless"). 
But thanks for the post about the minimum requirements for passive ventilation (which could be any kind of openings,not necessarrily windows) :6500mm2/m2 of room surface. No air vent ( the holes in the wall with an anti mice/bird grit) is that big anyhow.


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## ClubMan (5 Nov 2005)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> As far as I remember the building regulations demand a draft free house to conserve energy and to make the occupier happy ,so the existing arrangement of bertson's "air vents" are actually against the building regulations


I find it hard to believe that but would welcome some authoritative information on the subject.


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## ludermor (6 Nov 2005)

As far i know you have to provide ventilation to every room. This may be through wall vents, or other methods ( window/door vents) To say a builder in putting in wall vents because it is the cheap way out is just wrong.If as you say ''the existing arrangement of bertson's "air vents" are actually against the building regulations'' then why would the builder put them in, in the first place. Its not just a case of putting a pipe in the wall and buyin a cover. It disrupts work for the blocklayer, the plasterer, the painter, and the outside finish. Surely if the evil builder didnt have to put these in he wouldnt.


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## Carpenter (7 Nov 2005)

Heinbloed is misinformed when it comes to these air vents, I'm not going to quote from TGD F of the Building Regulations, 2002 they can be reviewed online at www.environ.ie.
However I will clarify some points- background ventilation is not intended purely as a defence against CO2 poisining, it's incorporated in modern buildings to make "adequate provision for the removal of water vapour from kitchens, bathrooms and other areas where water vapour is generated".  The requirements for air supply to appliances (stoves, boilers, open fires and the like) are covered under TGD Part J, 1997.  If anyone is in any doubt regarding ventilation could I suggest they consult these two documents online.  Irish Building regulations make no provisions as regards the air tightness of a structure at present, however this is likely to be introduced in the future for certain types of buildings.  There are some provisions made in TGD Part L for air infiltration through some structural elements at present.


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## z102 (7 Nov 2005)

The building regulations from 1991,part L, "consrevation of fuel and energy" ,page 6, state in the first paragragh , L1, enhanced in grey, the following:                                                                                                      "A building shall be so designed and constructed as to secure,insofar as is reasonably practicable,the conservation of fuel and energy."
So my advice to the original poster bertson (to close the holes unless there are appliances in the room causing uncontrolled combustion ) was and is right. And certainly not against the building regulations , Carpenter.
Unless the newer building regulations have watered down this old first ever building regulation of Ireland. The grey enhanced parts of the building regulations ARE binding.
My question to ludermore: 
If these holes in the walls are not necessary by the building regulations - we all here would like to see the proof why they are necessary - why else would builders put them in ? Sure to safe money on a proper ventilation/heating system?! These holes are not used on the continent unless there is a source of uncontrolled combustion (an outdated heating system for example).....and the medical problems arising from CO poisoning are the same with all people on this globe, nothing unique the the Irish ? 
Water vapour is no excuse to have holes in the wall, think about a submarine (smiley). Or just visit a public swimming pool , the guest would sue the managers if there was a cold draft blowing through the hall . Using technical systems -if we may call the holes as such- that are from a preindustrial age in a modern home means cheating the unaware buyer. He/she thinks they have bought something modern and it is just a shed style building (holes in the wall !!) equipped with " central heating " ( a water pipe above a fire, though pumped). No insult from me, just facing the facts of common building methods.
If you go to various builders home pages, especially the timber frame manufacturers , they simply don't have this feature : holes in the walls. 
And to keep up this booting way of making money in the building bussiness this Irish gouvernment is all likely the last in the EU to arrange for a mandatory energy passs for homes ......Who has donated to them , who has voted them ? Guess the builders, the mortgage providers who would see their "assets" loosing in value due to the dreaded burst of the bubble. 10 or 20 percent it could cost to retrofit a building with the necessarry improvements just to keep up the value in a competing market-to keep the value, not to increase it. The same building could have been build using 1-2 % more money but building it according to modern technic/design....But the poor buyers would not be able to afford this tremendous sum, equivalent to the energy bill of one or two years , wouldn't they ?! So they got what they want I guess. 
P.S. I put it to the moderators to place this/my post into the rant and chant corner , LOS.


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## Sue Ellen (7 Nov 2005)

Hi Heinbloed,

I think it is best to leave your post in this thread as it is more relevant here.

Sueellen.


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## Carpenter (8 Nov 2005)

Heinbloed-  I did say the TGDs were not the only way of satisfying the regulations but they represent the (probably) easiest solution to meeting the regulations using standard, conventional construction methods and materials.  Part F "Ventilation" states "Adequate means of ventilation shall be provided for people in buildings, including adequate provision for the removal of water vapour from kitchens, bathrooms and other areas where water vapour is generated".  This could be achieved by opening windows alone but this would lead to huge heat losses, draughts etc.  It can be achieved by mechanical extractaction  but a supply of replacement air is also required (via wall vents).  Unless air handling equipment is used extensively in the home (perhaps with heat recovering/ air tempering provision) some form of permanent, passive fresh air intake is required thus wall vents.  You talk about feature loaded homes which are beyond the scope (read budget) of most people, the original queries related to the provision of wall vents- are they necessary?  In short yes- unless you have a mechanical/ passive system in place, designed to handle the production of water vapour in the home and capable of meeting our requirements for fresh air.  For the vast majority of homes built in Ireland (rightly or wrongly) the Building Regulations TGDs represent a  practical, conventional way to achieve compliance with the Second Schedule of the Regulations.  Other systems which incorporate technology and improved construction methods to achieve compliance are available but at a significant cost.  My responses are based on conventioanl building methods, current good practice and solutions widely available "off the shelf".  
In the ideal world I'd love to live in a home built with SIPs, incorporating solar panels to provide DHW, a ground source heat pump for CH, Passive Stack Ventilation with Heat Recovery, all constructed using materials with Zero OD potential and ultimately recyclable.  If I did live in such a home I'd probably be on Duncan's TV show (which I love) but unfortunately I couldn't afford such a home- and this hurts because I am aware of my energy consumption and I like to believe I have some green credentials- but that's a discussion for another day.


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## ribena (9 Nov 2005)

I live in a house built in the late 80's with no ventilation.  Friends of mine have just built a new house and didn't put vents in their house but opted for vents in the windows instead.  I was going to see about getting vents put in to my windows as I don't like the thoughts of getting holes bored in the walls.  Can anyone advise as to which would be the best option, I don't want to waste money on window vents if I would be better off to get the vents put in to the wall.


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## Carpenter (9 Nov 2005)

Hi Ribena,

I thought you lived in an old house?  No matter, it won't be easy (maybe even impossible) to retrofit permavents in existing windows.   They are not attractive in anycase.  Cheapest option (and can be done neatly and cleanly with careful planning) is to core drill the walls and fit hit/miss grilles internally and fixed louvred grilles externally.


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## ribena (9 Nov 2005)

Nope, I live in an 80's time-warp!  I think MissRibena might live in an old house alright.  I took it from my friend that it was easy to get the vents in the windows, even mentioned it in passing to a window friend of mine and he said it would be easy.  I'd rather spend the money on the right job no matter how much it costs.  Who would you recommend to get to assess the job??  I know my parents had insulation blasted in to their house a few years ago.  Is it insulation people you contact or builders who would do it for me??  Thanks in advance Carpenter.


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## Carpenter (9 Nov 2005)

Sorry Ribena, I had confused you with Miss Ribena!  Go to a window supplier and see if the windows in your house can be fitted with permavents.  But look at a sample of the vent before you give the go ahead, I don't think they'e pretty (I know wall vents aren't pretty either).  If you opt for the wall vents this is a job for a handyman and it should be possible to do a 4 bed house in a 1- 2 days.


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## ribena (9 Nov 2005)

Okay, thanks for that Carpenter.  I'll give my window friend a call and see what he has to offer vent-wise first before I go down they handyman route.  If I got my hands on a handyman right now, I'd never let him go!!


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## breener (9 Nov 2005)

I Bought in September (2nd House in Clonsilla, Built 05/2003). We moved into the house and discovered the Gas Fire was Gone, Couple obviously never had 1. Pipes are there and the Grate is literally a copper Pipe and some Pot Pourie :-(
There is No Vent in the Wall, only slight slits in the Window... Which I have been told isnt sufficent to get a Gas Fire.  Ive now to go a find someone to Drill out the whole and rent the Equipment!   Im bulling as I thought all new houses wud have to have Vent holes!


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## olddog (10 Nov 2005)

Crikey !

There I was, gone for months.

First place I drop into on AAM & you are all debating if a hole in a wall is a good way to ventilate a house.

Very Retro, Very 1950s

The rest of the world gave up on this decades ago ( IIRC some of the council houses / flats in London were fitted with heat exchanging controlled ventilation systems in the 70's )

Google pulls up thousands of pages in this topic

Here is the first one that I got :

http://oikos.com/esb/39/VentOpt.html

The introduction :

"In the old days, buildings were ventilated by the wind and other uncontrolled forms of air leakage. However, most people no longer accept the cold, drafty houses of the old days."

LOL!

Irish building regs : An Irish solution to an Irish problem ?  ( fine if you can afford the heating bill )

Have to go now....I'm in the middle of a crisis

Will drop in again in a few months...Brendan permitting



Olddog


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## z102 (11 Nov 2005)

Welcome back!


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## serotoninsid (7 Dec 2005)

I am about to sign off on a house which has windows with vents.  There are no permavents. On this basis, is the builder complying with the building regs?


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## owenm (7 Dec 2005)

I just put up a new vent cover in the master bedroom, vent hole is ~280mm, their was no way I considered a non-closable vent. Even with it shut I can still detect air movement as the wall is not fully flat. 

I think their is a balance between meeting the regs/saftey and comfort, a given vent will allow more air through depending on building aspect and the weather? 

My amateur opinion is that a perceivable draught other than in the immediate proximity of the vent is not the intention and if it is the reality I would maybe cover 30% of the vent and see it the results are acceptable.


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## NiallA (7 Dec 2005)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Is this really a cheap way to implement ventilation


 
This is the only cost effective method.

All people breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide and water vapour (Avg person exhales ~0.5l of water per day, this is why your breath steams up a cold window or mirror).

The purpose of the ventilation is to allow for the exhaled air to be replaced with fresh air and to allow the water vapour to escape from the house.
No ventilation leads to problems with dampness (condensation) mildew, sick building syndrome, as well as the risk of carbon monoxide posioning from fires and boilers.

If the vent is causing a draught, you can try to turn louvre vents upside down so draft blows against the ceiling instead of down into the room, 
or fit a hit and miss vent (the sliding type) and close them on particularly windy days.

The house also needs rapid ventilation in addition to the trickle ventilation provided by vents, so open you windows and air the house regularly.


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## z102 (7 Dec 2005)

Rapid ventilation is legal and most recommended. Just open the doors and windows for a minute on a windy day or a few minutes on a silent day. Repeat this two or three times a day , depending on usage and occupation even more frequently. That would make any perma vent surplus, unless of course there is an open source of combustion.
A builder that does away with perma vents is complying with the building regulations if there are no open sources of combustion like stoves,boilers, open fires. And the window openings (for the rapid ventilation) should have a minimum size, depending on the size of the room. See the building regulations.


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## Lucret (9 Dec 2005)

You could install single room heat recovery ventilation systems from the likes of www.allvent.com
Or you could get one of there whole house heat recovery units but that would be hard to retrofit.
Other suppliers are www.villavent.co.uk
If anyone had installed an independent air supply for their fire I'd like to hear how it is working / done.


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## askew70 (9 Dec 2005)

Does anyone have any idea of the ballpark install cost you'd be looking at for a heat exchanger system such as that offered by www.allvent.com? I presume that the overall cost would depend on how easy/difficult it would be to run the pipework in any particular house, but even if you went just for a single top floor room directly accessible from the attic would you likely be looking at over or under 5,000euro for example?


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## Leo (9 Dec 2005)

I was given a guidance figure of €2 per square foot for a fully installed system from Proair. They mentioned that they'd need more information to give a more precise quote, such as size, type, new build/existing, etc.
Leo


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## Lucret (9 Dec 2005)

While you are at it do a test for radon gas in your house.  Adequate ventilation can keep its level low as a last line of defense.


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## askew70 (9 Dec 2005)

Leo said:
			
		

> I was given a guidance figure of €2 per square foot for a fully installed system from Proair. They mentioned that they'd need more information to give a more precise quote, such as size, type, new build/existing, etc.
> Leo



Thanks Leo. That sounds like better value than I had expected.  

We have not been in any great rush to move away from the vents in our rooms (mainly because we weren't aware of feasible alternatives and, as it turns out, we had underestimated the amount of heat lost via the vents) , but we have noticed surprisingly significant benefits, in terms of the heat retained in the house, since we slid closed some of the plastic vent covers in the last couple of weeks. If the marketing blurb is to be believed, the heat exchanger system addresses the two issues, of proper ventilation and heat retention, very neatly and very well. It certainly encourages me enough to explore it further.


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## Geegee (8 Jan 2006)

I've got electric extractor fans in the utility,wc,bathroom and ensuite with fixed louvres on the external wall and the fan itself. Result: Cold air flowing freely through. I have made enquiries and apparently extractor fans with an electronically closable vent are available (when on in opens and when off it closes) but they are €50 each. Are they worth it?

I also have a fixed open vent for a wood burning stove which has a manual open/close internal cover but even when closed this is a major source of draughts.


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## OCD (9 Jan 2006)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> The building regulations from 1991,part L, "consrevation of fuel and energy" ,page 6, state in the first paragragh , L1, enhanced in grey, the following: "A building shall be so designed and constructed as to secure,insofar as is reasonably practicable,the conservation of fuel and energy."
> So my advice to the original poster bertson (to close the holes unless there are appliances in the room causing uncontrolled combustion ) was and is right. And certainly not against the building regulations , Carpenter.
> Unless the newer building regulations have watered down this old first ever building regulation of Ireland. The grey enhanced parts of the building regulations ARE binding.
> My question to ludermore:
> ...


 
heinbloed, i'm afraid you are misleading people in many parts of your post.
firstly the regulations of 1991 have been superceded and therefore are not applicable to any change you make in 2006.
secondly, ventilation is not a quick way out for builders, in fact, it takes them longer to stop blocklaying to accommodate holes, windows, vents, etc.  VENTILATION IS REQUIRED for many reasons, Carbon monoxide being one of them.  It also stops radon building up in the home (radon barriers can fail!).  It also helps with condensation problems because of modern day double and triple glazing and the fact that houses are now very warm compared to 10, 20, 30 years ago.  I own a timber frame house and sometimes we don't have to turn on the heat.  Timber frame houses DO have ventilation holes in the walls.  Ventilation is also just common sense to stop musty smells and stale air building up in your house.

to the original poster: i am a structural engineer so i know what i'm talking about and i would urge you not to block or seal the vents.  Carpenter is correct in his advice.  you will be putting yourself and your family at risk if you do seal them as modern houses are built with materials will not let air in where it's not designed to come in.  if it is really bothering you, the best thing you can do is to move the vents to high level (if they are not up there).  are the vents near windows? if so, heavy curtains would prevent the breeze across the room but also allow fresh air to trickle in. you may also be able to install trickle vents in your windows.  you say there are no trees around your house - could you put up a temporary fence while the trees are being planted?


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## clarecelt (9 Jan 2006)

Actually looking at the retrofit of vents on old house..

Like many others I find the regualar vents quite disturbing and often creating too much ventilation.

My plan is to install vent cover on the ceiling and have 4inch flexi pipe going out to the soffit.. Hopefully this will help.. Any comments  ?


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## Carpenter (9 Jan 2006)

I don't think your solution will work- unless you add a mechanical fan.  The regular ducting is ribbed and this increases the internal surface area and the friction of the duct.  This coupled with the potential length of a duct will not produce any significant ventilation.  A standard wall vent will be sleeved with a circular smooth pipe and it's maximum length will only be about 300mm.


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## clarecelt (9 Jan 2006)

Was actually thinking of putting vent on ceiling say in bedroom close to wall say 2-3 inches from corner of wall using 90 degree wavin bend 8 to 12 inch wavin and 90 degree bend again to turn it down onto soffit...

Do you not think this will work ?? I was hoping by doing this that I would still have ventilation and avoid the noise of wall vent


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## Lucret (9 Jan 2006)

Sounds like passive stack ventilation


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## Carpenter (9 Jan 2006)

clarecelt said:
			
		

> Was actually thinking of putting vent on ceiling say in bedroom close to wall say 2-3 inches from corner of wall using 90 degree wavin bend 8 to 12 inch wavin and 90 degree bend again to turn it down onto soffit...
> 
> Do you not think this will work ?? I was hoping by doing this that I would still have ventilation and avoid the noise of wall vent


 
An inverted U?  That's a lot of obstructions for air to go around.  Also a vent in the ceiling like that might attract dust around the ceiling area where it's fitted.  Just my opinion, I'd be very interested to hear any others.  I'd imagine for a "passive stack" to be effective that the stack should be as straight as possible, no?


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## z102 (13 Jan 2006)

To OCD : only technically outdated houses have holes in the wall. Any permanent opening causes discomfort and exaggerates fuel bills. As a engineer you should be able to give us a figure how fast ( km/h) the wind has to blow through the perma vent to achieve the desired ventilation.Lets say for the average sized  livingroom/bedroom.   As well you should be able to figure out for us (and for the builders) how much it costs ( in kw/h )  to have these holes. And what it costs to get a proper ventilation system instead, with heat recovery. Heat recovery is necessary to get rid of the house when the new energy passport comes (2007) and the new would- be -owner feels incompetent to use rapid ventilation. Namely the doors and windows.
No house with permavents would survive a blower door test.
And radon as well as CO can be detected, measured and protected against.
One doesn't wear a life vest in Amsterdam just in case the barriers break, nor do we wear gas masks in the metro just in case..... 
Make sure your house is up to date ! 
Timber frame houses had been build in the past to bad standards because neither the engineers nor the buyers were aware of the technical advantages available to such a structure. Or to buildings in general.
Saying it is necessarry to have holes in the walls expresses ignorance of the issue.                                                                                   How would Irelands largest building ( County council hall in Cork,13 storeys) be ventilated? Sure the papers would be blown from the desks at that height/windspeed ? How would a cabin  on a ship/ferryboat be ventilated? A house with the comfort level of a caravan/sweatbox is in need of renovation . But saying that all new buildings should be made according to the old standards is protectionism of those who did put their money into the wrong property.Was that your intention?


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## OCD (15 Jan 2006)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> To OCD : only technically outdated houses have holes in the wall. Any permanent opening causes discomfort and exaggerates fuel bills. As a engineer you should be able to give us a figure how fast ( km/h) the wind has to blow through the perma vent to achieve the desired ventilation.Lets say for the average sized livingroom/bedroom. As well you should be able to figure out for us (and for the builders) how much it costs ( in kw/h ) to have these holes. And what it costs to get a proper ventilation system instead, with heat recovery. Heat recovery is necessary to get rid of the house when the new energy passport comes (2007) and the new would- be -owner feels incompetent to use rapid ventilation. Namely the doors and windows.
> No house with permavents would survive a blower door test.
> And radon as well as CO can be detected, measured and protected against.
> One doesn't wear a life vest in Amsterdam just in case the barriers break, nor do we wear gas masks in the metro just in case.....
> ...


 
i feel you are making very vague points to try to illustrate your own views but you are ignornant to many facts.  firstly, i never stated i was a building services engineer, i am a chartered structural engineer and therefore have achieved  a standard which entitles me to give my professional view.  if you can tell me what your experience is it may help your argument.  secondly, offices/ships and whatever else you concocted do not need to be insulated and protected in the same way as houses do.  yes there are measurements and detectors for radon, CO etc but most people do not have these nor use them on a daily basis.  "holes in walls" are techinically what they are but they are a little more sophisticated that just that.  people do not sleep in offices and therefore are not exposed to constant levels of CO and radon that they may be in their house.  thirdly, the most important point you are missing is that is that ventilation in a house is *good building practice*, for instance, you may test your radon and CO levels in year 1 and assume the the levels are fine in year 3....in year 2 your house may have settled, cracked the radon membrane and built up dangerous levels of radon in the ground floor...having proper ventilation will negate this problem.

i am neither pro or against timber frame, in fact i have designed houses, offices and every other building imaginable in all types of material. they all have the good and bad.  you are making it out that "holes in walls" are unnecessary and that they are a quick way out for builders.  yes, there are other ways to vent a house but they are costly and will eventually be passed on to the selling price.

please, get your facts straight, state where your experience comes from and don't throw out things just because you think they are true.  they may have happened to you but i have seen more houses in my career than you will see in your lifetime so i feel i am a little more qualified to speak about this than you.  i mean no disrespect but i have seen a lot of misinformation on these boards and i would hate to see someone fall ill after blocking up ventilation to their house because of various posts telling them "what's best".


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## z102 (15 Jan 2006)

Please, again, figure out for us what it costs in kwh/year to have these holes in the walls replacing a proper ventilation. If you can't come up with this number than you should not compare the cost of a proper ventilation regime, you have to compare like with like, money with money. "Ask about money" is the name of this forum after all.
Facts please!
Btw: Ships need a very good ventilation since steel decks at/below water level with steel hulls have nearly no insulation/k-value at all. Neither sound nor temperature insulation is available in a pure steel hull, so all cabins are fitted with non-breathable insulation . And fully ventilated. For cheap. 
O.k. , some passangers died in the 80s because of bad ventilation, but that was
 -alas- on Irish ferrys, fully inspected and passed by structural engineers.....(smiley).


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## OCD (16 Jan 2006)

> some passangers died in the 80s because of bad ventilation, but that was
> -alas- on Irish ferrys, fully inspected and passed by structural engineers.....(smiley).


you have just proven my point and misled readers again.
bad ventilation kills - would you prefer to save a few cent for the sake of ventilation.  i wouldn't and therefore your post is ill-informed.
insulation is neither inspected nor passed by structural engineers.

again, i would ask for your qualifications and your reasoning behind blocking up vents.  yes this is a money forum but i do not think money should come before a life.  my initial reason (and still the reason I question you) is that you are telling someone to contravene good building practice and at the same time put lives at risk and as an representative of sound engineering views i do not condone this.

yes, there are other ways to vent a house and you will have to get a building services engineer to compare costs but believe it or not, these vent holes are a pain for the builder to put in and are not the easy way around things.  i think your reasoning against the trade is deeper than you are letting on. maybe you've been burned by a contractor, i don't know, but please do not put people's lives at risk because of your views.


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## quinno (16 Jan 2006)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> If you install a proper boiler-one that has it's own independent air supply- and if you close the fire places for good than you won't need air vents.


 
You should be very careful when giving advice of this nature. As a fellow building professional, I would reiterate OCD's points when it comes to ventilation. Ventilation is a Building Regulation requirement and its specific requirements are set out in the Technical Guidance Documents that accompany the Regulations. It is the current regulatory framework that controls and regulates building in Ireland as is based upon a wealth of experience both here is the UK, backed up with years of research from respected bodies like the British Research Establishment and the British Standards. Eliminating ventilation would be fool hardy, even negligent. Where a boiler is involved, it could even prove fatal. Boilers by their nature draw oxygen and combust this with a fuel source (oil / gas etc), this produces carbon monoxide which, if inhaled, can prove fatal in sufficient quantities. As this gas is also colourless and odourless, you will not even know if you’re inhaling this. If you’re asleep, you will definitely not know and the consequences are often tragic. All boilers should be situated in an adequately uninhabited & ventilated room (i.e. garage, utility room). For piece of mind, it may be prudent to install a carbon monoxide detector – this is a similar device to a smoke alarm and wil lalarm when CO reaches dangerous levels. This also applies to rooms where a 'heat producing appliance' (fireplace) is installed, this can be a gas or solid fuel fire. Some modern gas fires being installed in apartments and duplexes have no chimney, they are therefore self venting and rely on air supply from external wall vents. These, unlike bedroom vents, are permanently left open and cannot be closed. 

If one wants to undertake the calculations to assess a ‘KW / hr / year’ value, they are set down in Part L of the TGD’s. Both appendix D & E give worked examples how one could work out the energy rating of a dwelling taking into account the various technical merits of the building fabric, U-values, including ventilation. If you're after a kW / h / year figure, Appendix E will give you such data.

However, the first posts on this thread related to wall vents, their requirements and potential downfalls (noise / draughts). A few simple pointers:

·         If wall vents are installed, never block them, particularly ones in a living room where a gas fire is installed. Duncan Stewart regularly reminds us of this on RTE. He’s doing this for a reason.

·         Vents were required to be fitted to houses after 1992, this was when the current building regulations came into effect. Some houses built prior to this would have wall vents fitted, this would have been based upon requirements and good practice observed in the UK. Vents can easily be retro fitted as Carpenter has pointed out. vents also come in wall / trickle vents.

·         The issues high lighted (noise, draughts and heating) can be resolved easily by installing acoustically treated vents (in the case of noise), these are more expensive than the standard (and probably cheapest) ones installed by contractors, particularly where a mass build development is underway. Draughts can be minimised by fitting closable vents in *rooms where no gas fires / boilers are fitted.* I don’t have any info on these, but an internet search should source these.

·         The ‘trickle vents’ above windows commonly seen in new developments satisfy the requirements for ventilating habitable rooms (typically 1/20th of the room area), they are in my opinion a better solution as they are generally quieter than the walls vents. 

·         In Ireland, we have a very damp climate with high levels of RH All year round. This is one reason why ventilation is installed, as well as generally improving the air within a room. Some counties also suffer excess radon – the treatment of radon is also compulsory under the current building regulations. If in doubt, you can have a survey done by contacting www.rpii.ie. They will send out a small sensor that can be installed in a room and sent back after a few weeks for analysis of radon quantities. It is a known fact that Radon build up can be minimised by adequate ventilation.

I think the comment on the ferry deaths is inappropriate and insensitive to this discussion. I am not a marine engineer, therefore cannot comment on the requirements for shipping vessels.


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## z102 (16 Jan 2006)

I give it up, I can show you the water but I can't teach you how to drink it. Airtight buildings are beeing build around the globe since decades. Condensing boiler for ecxample need no airsuply from the room, they can't emit CO2 to the room. British and Irish building regulations are set for grandad's house , not for modern buildings. Concerning the holes in the wall. No sane engeneer builds open fires into houses that should pass an enery rating. And it's the open fire-one that doesn't get the oxigene from outside but from the room- that causes CO emissions , nothing else.
We have to figure out the costs to the owner and to the world to eliminate these bad building practices. So my question still hasn't been answered : What do these holes in the walls cost?
The origal poster of this thread was in danger to catch a cold or worse because of holes in the wall, don't forget that.


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## quinno (17 Jan 2006)

Heinbloed,

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with your airtight building theory, and omission of ventilation, it sounds like your amateur interest is not backed up with any professional rationale or training in the field of engineering or construction, especially when I see statements such as ..'British and Irish building regulations are set for grandad's house , not for modern buildings'. It is unlikely the building regulations are going to be re-written to suit your thoughts, these are currently enabled by statute to govern and control building development in Ireland. However if you feel so strongly, Dick Roche (http://www.dickroche.com/) is the current Minister for the Environment. His department will take submissions, you'd never know they might see the err in their ways and re-write the next edition of the regulations based on your knowledge.

I can see merit in some of your posts, green building is the way forward and it's in all our mutual interests to ensure reductions in heating and associated CO2 & adherence to EU directives & to treaties such as Kyoto. This will make the planet a cleaner place for us all to live in and pass on to future generations. The energy directive currently in the Dáil in the form of the Bulding Control Bill 2005 should help implement tighter controls and implementation of current European directives. The impact will become evident when it applies to new housing in 2007.

Anyone still with me, Vent Axia do acoustically treated and thermostatically controlled wall vents, details can be found at [broken link removed]


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## Max Hopper (17 Jan 2006)

Dunno here. Seems that I have never seen (anyone else?) 'holes-through-walls' in any other northern Europe nations, excepting our idol for mimicry, the UK.

And this will see off the 'protectors of Ireland against CO' in short order.


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## z102 (17 Jan 2006)

Maybe those who are insisting on holes in the walls , thinking these are a must, thinking that these holes are a legal requirement have not had the chance to get over the 2. level of literacy?
The third level of literacy demands understanding of a complex text. 
To show what I mean in our context here I use the sample of the "Technical Guidance Document F , Ventilation"
I start, to stay basic and simple , with the first chapter, containing the first three sentences of the refered text:
"This document has been published by the Minister for the Environment and Social Gouvernment under the article 7 of the Building Regulations 1997. It provides guidance in relation to part F of the Second Schedule to the Regulations (Amendment)(No2) Regulations 2002.The document should be read in conjunction with the Building regulations ,1997 and other documents published under these Regulations."
Here we are. Those oposing the true and valid statement of mine -namely that holes in the wall are no legal requirement- simply do not under stand the second sentence (see above) where it says :"....provides guidance...".
Do we have to explain to our engeneers what a guidance is ? Do we have to explain to our builders, solicitors, to our academics what the legal binding effect of a " guidance" is?
That would be very complicated and time consuming, I'm not an english teacher nor a social worker provided with the means to train literates category 2 to understand a simple textbook made for literates category 3, so let me try this simple picturesque sample:
Imagine you are travelling on a road and come to a signpost that says "Dublin,10km". What does it mean ? That you have to travel 10 km ? To Dublin ? 
This signpost would be a guidance. Not an order. Nor a demand. Just a guidance in the original meaning of the word. 
You are not legally required to take this road to get to Dublin. In fact you are not required to travel to Dublin at all when spotting this signpost. When planning to travel to Dublin you can take any legal route.
No matter how long or short. As long as you get there you'll be in Dublin. 
I hope that clears a bit the situation concerning the "Technical Guidance Document F Ventilation " 
Check also Carpenter's post in this thread. 
Technical Guidance Ducuments are not legally binding. Only the Building Regulations are. 
My point -that there is no need for holes in the walls for adequate ventilation- is right, based on facts.


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## ClubMan (18 Jan 2006)

heinbloed said:
			
		

> Imagine you are travelling on a road and come to a signpost that says "Dublin,10km". What does it mean ? That you have to travel 10 km ? To Dublin ?


It could mean that there is a fun run ahead.


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## z102 (18 Jan 2006)

Fun run ?! 1780 views and no end in sight ( smiley ) .....Some feel seriously attacked by logic and reality, no fun at all for those it seems.
It seems I've kicked another few torwards the road to progress.


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## extopia (19 Jan 2006)

I think heinbloed is right to point out that Technical Guidance Documents are, by definition, just a guide.

No one is arguing that buildings need adequate ventilation. The argument is about how one goes about installing a ventilation system.

To the original poster, it's a simple answer: do not block up your air vents unless there is an alternative source of adequate ventilation available. And while I like the thought, I don't think opening the windows regularly is the answer, because an awful lot of people (e.g. the kind of people who remove or block up wall vents) do not like drafts and are not going to bring them on voluntarily, except on a nice day.


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## OCD (19 Jan 2006)

Max Hopper said:
			
		

> Dunno here. Seems that I have never seen (anyone else?) 'holes-through-walls' in any other northern Europe nations, excepting our idol for mimicry, the UK.


 
You must remember that Ireland and the UK have different climates to the rest of Europe and what works in Spain or Finland etc. might not necessarily work for our climate.  It is the reason we have the Irish Agrement Board.

Also the phrase "our idol of mimicry" shows a lack of respect to the knowledge base in the UK.  Yes, these are Guidance Documents and while legally they may be unbinding I doubt you will find an engineer that designs against them.  Similarly British and Irish Standards are best practice standards and you don't have to design to them if you can prove your theory another way but again, engineers will design to these standards.

Based on our technical knowledge, climate, etc. venting air in houses is important and you should take that from people in the industry who are dealing with this every day.  I have yet to see heinbloed state his qualifications and therefore do not agree with his point.  Blocking vents will lead to lives being at risk and there is no other way I can say that.  You do not go to a doctor and tell them their diagnosis is wrong and similarly you should accept the opinion of engineers and others in the construction industry when we give our professional views.  This is not a personal attack but I feel you should drop the view that venting is unnecessary. Reading a Technical Guidance Document doesn't make you an expert in the field so please leave it to those with the experience.  To dismiss the Document as legally unbinding effectively means you are ignoring the research work, practical knowledge and feedback from thousands of engineers/tradesmen/fire servicemen etc. and millions of man-hours of these people that have gone into writing, re-writing and continuous update of these documents.  Please don't wave your pen and dismiss this just because you have a little bit of knowledge about the subject and of what they do in other countries.


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## extopia (20 Jan 2006)

I don't believe that heinbloed has ever said that venting is unnecessary. His point is that there is a case to be made for passive versus active ventilation, and that advocates of active (i.e. "hole in the wall") ventilation might illustrate the cost/benefit analysis of their case. That is to say, how does the cheaper cost of installation of hole vents stack up against a more expensive ventilation system in terms of payback time by way of heating costs saved, etc. This is standard analysis that  any qualified advocate should be able to do off the top of their head.


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## Max Hopper (20 Jan 2006)

> You must remember that Ireland and the UK have different climates to the rest of Europe and what works in Spain or Finland etc. might not necessarily work for our climate. It is the reason we have the Irish Agrement Board.


You are winding us up, yeah? The UK and Ireland have a micro-climate unparallelled in northen Europe? Even your choice of the weasel phrase, 'not necessarily work', demonstrates a lack of confidence in the subject. 

Step back a moment and look at all the nonsensical laws and statues there are. Now you would agree that many of the more whimsical were enacted to deal with a single issue, problem, personal gain, or as a vendetta.

Building codes and guidances accumulate in a similar fashion. I submit that if the origin of the 'hole-in-the-wall' guidance could be traced to it's origin, it would probably be about the era when to paraphrase an earlier poster, the locals were living in mud huts with open heat sources (turf fires). Indeed, the image of the plains dwellers of north America in teepees with smoke curling from the tops of their conical dwellings springs to mind.

And what with the swell of publicity concerning the boundless errors in the medical profession and Health Service, you would be foolish to accept a diagnosis for anything more than external injuries and the common cold (and there, with the increasing number of avian flu cases, most GPs in all likelihood would mis-diagnosis).

Get over yourself and ask for a second opinion.


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## OCD (20 Jan 2006)

Max Hopper / Heinbloed,

It feels like you're trying to turn this into a slanging match and that's not what it should be about. The original post said that they had moved into a new bungalow and were considering seaking the vents up. From my point of view, which is technical, I totally disagree with blocking vents but maybe from your point of view, money, vents are an unnecessary waste.

I am not here to tell you what they cost in terms of heat loss but I have designed and lived in many types of house and vents are not just for rooms with a combustible fuel source. Whether the vents are in the windows or in the walls it doesn't matter. As I said before, in disputing this you are effectively negating thousands of professional views on the subject and if you are adamant that they are not needed then please give everyone your qualifications and background so that other readers can make up their own minds. 

Venting not only reduces the risk of CO poisoning from fuel sources, it also reduces the risk of Radon poisioning from the ground, dampness from condensation and the general airing of the house. If you go into your attic and notice the slight breeze, check the colour and moisture level of the timbers and they will be ok....seal the attic from this airing and you will get dried out timber, cracked slates and water ingress, i.e. the vents in your roof are important in doing a job. Similarly, the vents in the walls or windows or doors on the other floors are doing a job - a very important job.

I'd rather not write again in this post so you can have the last word if you so wish but if you do choose to respond, at least give the readers a professional technical reason for views that vents can be blocked. I think everyone would be interested to see them along with your qualifications behind your reasoning. I fear that you have a little knowledge of engineering and that can be a dangerous thing when you are dealing with people's lives.


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## Max Hopper (20 Jan 2006)

> ...effectively negating thousands of professional views


Substantiation?





> ...seal the attic from this airing


From 'holes-in-the-walls' to holes in the soffitting. There is a stretch!





> ...a little knowledge of engineering and that can be a dangerous thing when you are dealing with people's lives.


Are you referring to the fact that anyone can operate as an architect in Ireland?

The vagueness of statements akin to 'health and safety reasons' and 'dampness and stale air' (Google throws up hundreds of links with the CO issue, BTW) leaves me sceptical. And if a handful of idiots annually die from 'misadventures', so be it. The gene pool does need occasional doses of chlorine. I maintain that the 'holes-in-the-walls' solution is an antiquated device as are damperless fireplaces.


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## z102 (20 Jan 2006)

From a structural engineer – which OCD (unnecessarily) claims to be – one would expect a.) knowledge of the building regulations, b.) competence to use a calculator and presenting the results ( 2 exchanges of 20degrees warm air in the average sized living room exchanged with out side air in winter time is how much in kilowatts blown into the wind ? ) and c.) ability to present an opinion using references.
How the original poster should tackle his/her problem was not even once spoken about by OCD.
He is taking us for a ride. Some need to act like that, psychology .
There where many more questions, I take a few:
Clarecelt was thinking about using ducting through the house , taking the stale air out.
Yes, that can be done. But when not employing a heat recovery unit than 
think about how the expelled air has to be replaced. And when running 
air ducts through rooms that are occupied by different persons (different
owners/appartments) then you should equip the ducting system with fire flaps. This is 
also the case when going through several storeys. Fire flaps automatically
close when there is a fire, fires love to spread via air ducts. I don’t know if
these are required by any legislation in the private single family house but 
they are worth it.
Serontosid wanted to know if air vents in the window frames are legal. Yes, they are.
But they are no replacement for a properly sized window opening (tilt and
turn or simply turn) nor can they alone provide a room with adequate
ventilation on their own. And they are not energy wise, a punctured 
window frame insulates badly.
Gegee wanted to use flaps on ventilation pipes. No problem, as long as the pipes are
horizontally leaving the wall to the outside. If they stick vertically into the air 
then hoods can be put on top , they look somewhat like cowls. That would at 
least break the wind somehow, many sewer pipes –going up outside the wall- 
are not fitted with those , they should be so, watch the water level in the toilet pan moving when the wind blows strongly (smiley).


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## quinno (21 Jan 2006)

As a building surveyor and corporate building engineer, I have observed some of the posts aimed at OCD and they appear to becoming personal. I am not here to judge qualifications, or to back up my own to a bunch of strangers, but as a structural engineer he has reached the prescribed level of education and experience to offer such advice. I am also not going to get into a debate or slagging match about my own qualifications and experience (12 years in total). These are currently in front of the Dail in the form of the Building Control Bill 2005 and it is they (not you) that will be eneacting this in legislation. This Bill will, once enacted, protect ‘Building Surveyor’ as a registered title (incidentally, Max Hopper, this will also include ‘architect’ and ‘quantity surveyor’). In short, I know what I’m talking about. 

The advice Hienbloed has given shows a keen interest in green building, what one would call amateur interest, without being backed up with a sound education and knowledge of building construction and regulation, particularly in Ireland. Not all of this advice is bad, he certainly is passionate about the subject, and I for one am as interested in green issues as the next. Simply dismissing and criticising the system we have in place here is useless – there are laws of the land protected by statute that we have to all abide by. Further comments by Max Hopper appear to be just plain inflammatory and show a complete ignorance of what we are trying to achieve by ventilating space. Incidentally, wall vents are used in other countries, including the US, Australia and throughout the EU to achieve passive natural ventilation in houses. Timber roofs particularly need ventilation – they will simply rot otherwise. The dry rot fungus (Serpula lacrymans) is everywhere, in the air, in and on timber, everywhere. It loves warm, tranquil, humid spaces to breed and reproduce. It can also grow invisibly through wood fibre, akin to ivy growing up a tree, so an out break at one end of the house can infest the entire property very quickly. It is very difficult to treat and eradicate (never mind the expense) once it gets a hold. Only one spore germinating causes an outbreak, which can lead to potential structural failure and a nasty repair bill. To the people reading posts, I would say take from it what you want, but seek sound professional advice from a recognised professional (with professional indemnity insurance) before pursuing these ideas further.

The need for adequate ventilation has been recognized in buildings for years. From the middle ages, it was recognised that ventilation was required to prevent transmission of diseases, as well as preventing poisoning from open fires. Scientists such as John Mayow conducted experiments in the 17th century to elaborate on his observations regarding ‘igneo-aerial particles’ (subsequently discovered to be carbon dioxide) that caused asphyxiation in mice. The science behind the need for ventilation is well recognized. I am not going to go into what is already well known and documented and researched subject, far beyond some of the ‘pub advice’ offered here. What people have confused here is ‘Regulation’ (in the form if the Building Regulations themselves) and Guidance (in the form of the Technical Guidance Documents oft referred to here). In the requirements for ventilation, the Building Regulations are specific and simply state (under Regulation F1) … ‘Adequate means of ventilation shall be provided for people in buildings.’ The Technical Guidance Documents indicate how this can be achieved. Not following the TGD’s to the letter is not a breach of the Regulations per se, however you need to satisfy the Building Control Authority (not me) that you have satisfied the Regulations if you are coming up  with alternatives. This will generally require a good sound understanding in the principles of what is involved, as well as some detailed calculations. Compliance with the TGD’s is _prima facia_ compliance with the Regulations. How you do that is up to you, you can invent or innovate whatever means necessary, it is not me you will have to convince. Also, if you undertake alterations to your house that you subsequently decide to sell on, you may be obliged to change these back in order to comply with the Regulations. You might lose the sale as a result.

The basic requirements, in terms of human comfort, are to provide:

Adequate air changes in the space being ventilated. A rate of 16 l/s per person was recognized as early at the beginning of the 19th century as being adequate to achieve comfort. This can be achieved by an air change rate of 0.5 – 1.5 times in the ventilated space. Further details can be found from recognised bodies such as the Chartered Institute of Service Engineers (CIBSE), they also appear in some of the appendices that accompany the Technical Guidance Documents. If any one wants to maybe advice them how they’ve being erring in their ways all this time, feel free to email them your ideas.

Lowering of CO2 (carbon dioxide) concentrations – a concentration of 1000 p / pm generally leads to the ‘stuffiness’ and ‘drowsiness’ experienced in a poorly ventilated space. Increased CO2 in an environment leads to the body hyper ventilating, that is breathing deeper to increase the intake of oxygen (you might notice how you tend to yawn in such an environment – this is the body trying to absorb more O2 from the air into your blood stream). This exacerbates the cycle in that the free oxygen in the air is used up and converted to CO2, further increasing CO2 concentrations. In the extreme, CO2 poisoning can lead to unconsciousness.

Lowering of concentrations of other gases – as well as CO2, CO (carbon Monoxide) is one of the main gases created by open fires and combustion sources (gas cookers, oil boilers, etc). CO is a particularly nasty gas in that it is colourless and odourless, you do not know that you are breathing it usually until it is too late. The CO molecules attach to the blood haemoglobin in your body, this prevents the uptake of O2 (oxygen) that you need to live. This is why so many people that survive house fires subsequently succumb to its effects – their haemoglobin is so saturated with CO that they cannot absorb O2 into the blood stream. CO Concentrations above 70 ppm will generally cause feelings of being unwell, with 150 – 200 ppm are fatal. If in doubt, buy and CO detector.

In addition to CO, radon is a radioactive colourless and odourless gas that is present in Ireland (details of your area can be found at www.rpii.ie). Radon is a gas formed by the break down of minute deposits of uranium in the soil. It is particularly prevalent in semi-porous sub-strata (such as limestone) where the gas can percolate freely upwards. Protection from radon is legislated for within the TGD’s, there are there for a reason. Lack of ventilation can lead to unacceptable levels of radon building up (above 200 bq / m3 is considered dangerous to health, and increases the risk of lung cancer). 

Lowering humidity in the air – humidity is one of the contributory causes for breeding of fungal (dry rot) and bacterial (Legionella, amongst others) agents. We suffer from almost year round high humidity in Ireland (quite different to Finland and Spain, as OCD pointed out) and resultant high levels of dry rot. Nearly all buildings in Ireland act as a potential incubator for the dry rot fungus.  We also breath out moisture in our breath. This leads to condensation, if not ventilated properly.

Posts on this forum have seen the need for ventilation as being almost heinous, and have confused the need for airtight buildings with the need to ventilate adequately. Natural passive ventilation is compatible with ‘green building’. It is after all free, and if installed correctly, the heat loss from ventilation can be less than the capital costs of installing and running alternatives. Better solutions than the bare minimum bog-standard ones found en-mass here can offer adequate ventilation, as well as offering satisfactory levels of temperature control, acoustic damping and minimal heat loss.  The EPBD Directive, currently under consideration by the Dail in the form of the Building Control Bill 2005, recognises this and orders EU member states to implement the directive and adopt it under their own legislative framework. Article 3 recognises the need for ventilation and specifically states implementation of the directive (where ventilation is concerned) should be undertaken in such a way as to ...’avoid possible negative effects such as inadequate ventilation’. Some posts have suggested here bthat we should eleminate ventialtion altogether an live in an air tight box.

And, Heinbloed, if you want to work out your ‘..2 exchanges of 20degrees warm air in the average sized living room exchanged with out side air in winter time is how much in kilowatts blown into the wind ?’, I refer you to appendix E1 of Part L of the Building Regulations 2002 – Technical Guidance Documents which demonstrates how to calculate elemental heat loss from a dwelling, including an allowance for ventilation. These calculations are based upon EU directives, absorbed into our legislation and enacted by this Regulation. They are also used EU wide under this directive. If you are struggling with this, seek the advice of a building professional.


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## Sue Ellen (21 Jan 2006)

Hi Quinno,

Thank you for taking the time to post your obviously well thought out/informative reply.

As all views/arguments on this subject appear to have been expressed at this stage and Bertson's query has been dealt with IMHO it is best if we close off this thread now.

Thanks to all who have contribued.

Sueellen.


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