# Dublin - Law ?? and Order??



## Marathon Man (21 Mar 2008)

Note: Moderator(s), please excuse the abbreviated 'F words', they are necessary to illustrate the points - Not intended to circumvent Forum policy.

It's been quite a while since I've been around Dublin on foot. Last Friday, March 24th, I was in and around Dublin city centre and I'm pretty peeved at my experience.

Around 5.45 my wife & I took the Dart from Blackrock to Tara St. 

Almost immediately after the the train left Blackrock a lone guy in his early to mid thirties and casually dressed started shouting "Talk <expletive deleted> English" "<expletive deleted> off back to (country)". On and on it went. Then he stood up and took of his jacket "Somebody is gonna get the <expletive deleted> kicked out dem" "I'm gonna kill someone".

Friday wasn't a good day for me, so rather than doing something about it, we got off at Booterstown and entered the next carriage, where I attempted to contact the driver via the intercom. It wasn't working! I thought about contacting the Gardai, but left it - as I said Friday wasn't a good day.

We got off at Tara St and crossed the river, coming out onto (Lower) Abbey Street. (About 6pm then) There we came across a group of about 50 or 60 people, m&f, in their early twenties. All apparently fairly drunk, "messing about" all across the wide pavement, so that all other passers-by had to give them a wide berth and go well into the roadway/luas lane. I'm not talking about a well behaved crowd outside a pub.

Next, at the Junction with O'Connell St, we came across a gathering distanced around a woman, in her thirties/early forties who was shouting "Garda". We think she was robbed, but didn't stop to ask. However, being the main st of our capital city, I reasoned that we'd come across a Garda by the time we reached the GPO. We didn't see a Garda during 30 minutes on O'Connell St.

At 6pm on a regular Friday evening, not to mention a Bank Holiday w/e, in any large city ANYWHERE, in my experience, I would expect to find at least one policeman. Moreover I would expect them to be proactive when a disturbance of any kind arises. I have NEVER come across a situation where police were not readily visible on the main street in ANY capital city.

Maybe our experience last Friday was unusual, but the law & order situation made my blood boil. I really don't know where to start to try to get REAL action initiated on L&O in this country but, while nobody died or was injured in the above, each incident, but if L&O on this scale can't be tackled, what hope do we have with the more serious incidents.

Remember....this was 6pm on the main street of our capital city!!


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## ajapale (21 Mar 2008)

I empathize with your position as I understand that  this was not a simple case of someone just shouting and swearing.  And that the the behavior was extremely menacing.

What can be done about it? I'm afraid I have no answers. Letting off steam here or on the pages of the Irish Mail  (or English Telegraph) might make one feel better but its hardly going to change anything.


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## Glenbhoy (21 Mar 2008)

I'm presuming you mean March 14th?
That aside, I have worked for much of the past ten years in the city centre and haven't come across any problems in that time (well, admittedly I've seen crowds miling around outside pubs, and heard people swear, never spotted an assault/mugging crime though) - there are normally guards around in my experience, especially in and around O'Connell St, but I suppose on occasion they'll be missing too.


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## Purple (22 Mar 2008)

The Garda have more powers than most police forces. The problem is that most of them are just not very good at their jobs. I base this view on every time I have needed them and from what I hear from friends and read in the paper.

A few years back I called my local station because a bin house at the back of the apartment block I lived in was on fire and the kids who lit it were still there (we were a 3-5 minute walk from Kevin street Garda station). There was a football international on and I could hear them all shouting at the TV in the background when I called. By the time they arrived the fire brigade had put out the fire, been stoned by the kids, hosed the kids in question, and an ambulance had arrived to deal with a fireman who had been hit in the face by a stone. It was perhaps 40 minutes after I, and many other residents, had called them.
The next time I needed them was a few years later when I heard people in my house in the middle of the night. I called my (different) local station and told them what was happening... two and a half hours later they arrived (it's a 5 minute drive). In the mean time I had scared the guys off who had broken in. 

My general experience of the Gardai is that they are rude, lazy and utterly unprofessional in how they deal with the general public. I think this is one of the major reasons why public order issues are not addressed.


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## truthseeker (22 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> My general experience of the Gardai is that they are rude, lazy and utterly unprofessional in how they deal with the general public. I think this is one of the major reasons why public order issues are not addressed.



Last summer I witnessed a mugging in the carpark of the apartments that I live in. The muggers were 3 children (12/13 years old) from a cul-de-sac around the corner. I recognised all 3 of them on sight because they had all been involved in booting footballs at my car on a couple of occasions in the past and the ringleader is quite well known (on sight) in the area.

Immediately I noted what the 3 were wearing and went to the guy who had been mugged and told him to phone the Guards immediately and I would provide a description of what the kids were wearing - and that I recognised them anyway so if the Guards wanted I could identify them.

He phoned and 7 days later the Guards still had not shown up. He called again and was told to come in and make a statement 'if he wanted to'.
Had the Guards shown up on the day the 3 could have been identified and dealt with. 

As for the 3 kids involved? Well they have continued to terrorise local people - and why wouldnt they - sure the Guards let them at it.


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## room305 (22 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> My general experience of the Gardai is that they are rude, lazy and utterly unprofessional in how they deal with the general public. I think this is one of the major reasons why public order issues are not addressed.


 
Personally anytime I've had to deal with the Gardai in relation to anti-social problems I've always been impressed by the speed of their response and their professionalism.

Although several years ago, a friend's wife was punched on O'Connell street just a few yards away from the Garda station. My friend rang emergency services and they put him through to the station where they were informed that the incident had been caught on camera and an ambulance was being dispatched. Yet they never bothered to go outside to check on the situation! No need, they informed my friend when he explained his disbelief that they saw this happen and didn't bother to attend, we have it all on camera. This was midweek around 4pm.

In terms of anti-social behaviour I think community policing is the solution. That and a lower tolerance of this kind of nonsense by all members of society.

Also, I think if the parents of children engaged in persistent anti-social behaviour are on benefits, those benefits should be revoked by the state.


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## The_Banker (23 Mar 2008)

There has been a lot of stuff written over the last few years about the decline in society from the decline in the Catholic Church to our love of affluence over family values etc...

I too have suffered as a victim of crime and have found the response of the Gardai less than adequate.

I have two friends who are members of the force and both are at uniform level. I have never discussed crime or law and order with them but I have noticed a few things from what they say when they are off duty.

I believe they are disenchanted, unmotivated and completely fed up and bored with their jobs. I think morale in the force is pretty low.

The laws are there to prosecute law breakers, however I don't believe the will is there to impliment there laws. People who act in an anti social manner will continue for as long as they get away with it. If no one stops them then they will continue.

These are just my observations from knowing two Gardai.


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## room305 (23 Mar 2008)

The_Banker said:


> There has been a lot of stuff written over the last few years about the decline in society from the decline in the Catholic Church to our love of affluence over family values etc...


 
Society hasn't "declined" due to the waning influence of the Catholic Church, more the opposite in fact, it has prospered. I don't buy that increases in anti-social behaviour can be ascribed to lessening church influence but if it later proves true, it was a price worth paying.

I wonder do Eastern Europeans have similar discussions post decline of communism?


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## Complainer (23 Mar 2008)

I'm not normally a fan of the Daily Mail shock tactics around crime/law/order. However, as a born & bred Dub, I was surprised to find that (for the first time) I was distinctly uneasy on a recent trip through central Dublin one evening. It wasn't any one particular incident, but just a general feeling of tension. When one looks at the series of drug-related serious crime along with large amounts of 'petty' violent crime (including the recent loss of a finger by a 17-year-old English rugby player who was accosted by some locals on O'Connell St on St Patrick's night), I find I just don't want to go out. This of course, means that the criminals have won, as they now have control.

The scenario of intruders in the house as described by Purple above is my nightmare scenario.  I posted in this boards.ie thread about some of the practical risks of taking the 'have a go hero' approach. 

I've no idea what the solution is. I don't subscribe to the idea that the Garda are mostly lazy or incompetent. I don't think new legislation is particularly relevant, as we really don't enforce current legislation. 

I'm worried.


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## z103 (23 Mar 2008)

> As for the 3 kids involved? Well they have continued to terrorise local people - and why wouldnt they - sure the Guards let them at it.



I've heard that the guards a pretty powerless when it comes to people under 18 years old. There are local criminals (under 18) where I live that do burglary jobs pretty much unhindered. Everyone seems to know who they are too.

Isn't there borstals, like in Scum?


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## The_Banker (24 Mar 2008)

room305 said:


> Society hasn't "declined" due to the waning influence of the Catholic Church, more the opposite in fact, it has prospered. I don't buy that increases in anti-social behaviour can be ascribed to lessening church influence but if it later proves true, it was a price worth paying.
> 
> I wonder do Eastern Europeans have similar discussions post decline of communism?


 
I may not have made my point correctly. I was trying to get the point across that some people believe that the decline of the churches power has led to the decline in society. I don't believe that.
Anyone who has read through my posting history will know I am no friend of the catholic church. I celebrate there demise every chance I get!!

My point is I believe that people get away with anti social behaviour because the police are not in anyway motivated to stop them. I believe the Gardai (at a uniform level) are completely unmotivated. Why exactly this is, I don't know.
There was a very good letter printed in the Sunday Independent yesterday written by an ex pat Irish person whose mother (an alzheimer patient) had gone missing and her experience when she went to the local Garda station to report her disappearance. Her whole experience summed up the standard of policing in Ireland.

Edit: Just found the letter online (Taken from Letters to the Editor on the Sunday Independent)


Sir -- While watching the St. Patrick's Day Parade here in New York, I commented to my teenagers that I would like to take them to Dublin one year for the festivities. After hearing the events of St. Patrick's Day, (teenagers rioting in Finglas) I'm staying in New York City where it's far safer.

But while the problem teens did initiate the terror, the riots should have been brought to a quick close by the Garda. However, it has been my experience that the Garda in Ireland, I am sorry to say, do not anticipate problems. 
Case in point: I was in Dublin two years ago during the last riots. My mother had just been diagnosed with Alzheimer's and I was taking her to visit her family before her disease became worse. As "luck" would have it, on the day of the riots, my mother slipped out of my cousin's home in the morning while I was taking a shower. After an exhaustive search of the neighbourhood turned up nothing, I went to the local Garda station for help. I announced my presence and waited, all to no avail. Finally, after almost ten minutes, one Garda remembered that she was there to work. 
But she clearly did not seem to know what to do. She took "notes" on a slip of paper about my mother, never entered any information into a computer, never asked for a photo to scan to provide it to other Garda for a search, never asked for my mother's passport, and never called the US consulate. 
Apparently this "Keystone Cops" behaviour from your police is accepted by the Irish citizens because when I became upset that the Garda was not doing anything to find my mother my relatives told me to be quiet and not act "like an American"! As if. My mother, an Alzheimer's victim, was wandering around a city that she no longer recognised, and the Orangemen were in town for a protest and already reports were streaming in of the violence. 
Fortunately, my cousin's husband works for Dublin Bus -- and he radioed the drivers and gave them a description. Within minutes the bus drivers located my mother on a bus near a suburban mall. Why did we have to do their job for them? What kind of "training" do they get if they can't handle something so basic as a missing Alzheimer's patient?
Catherine M. Wilson
Mt. Pleasant, NY


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## shnaek (25 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> The scenario of intruders in the house as described by Purple above is my nightmare scenario.  I posted in this boards.ie thread about some of the practical risks of taking the 'have a go hero' approach.



Ring the Gardai and tell them you have just shot someone who was breaking into your house. They'll be there in 5 mins and catch the burglers red-handed!

One thing is for certain - if the forces of the state do not preserve law and order like we have contracted and voted them to, then some form of 'community' policing will eventually come into being. I know almost all of us here would prefer if the Gardai, government and courts just did their job and took all criminals and thugs off the streets. But when people are backed into a corner - as will eventually happen - they won't stand by and allow themselves to be terrorised. We don't have to look too far away for examples of this.


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## Complainer (26 Mar 2008)

shnaek said:


> One thing is for certain - if the forces of the state do not preserve law and order like we have contracted and voted them to, then some form of 'community' policing will eventually come into being. I know almost all of us here would prefer if the Gardai, government and courts just did their job and took all criminals and thugs off the streets. But when people are backed into a corner - as will eventually happen - they won't stand by and allow themselves to be terrorised. We don't have to look too far away for examples of this.


What would you recommend? The South African approach whereby the remaining rich white people have armed security guards patrolling their gardens? Or the California approach whereby the privatised fire services choose which house fires to put out, depending on your insurance policy?


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## shnaek (27 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> What would you recommend? The South African approach whereby the remaining rich white people have armed security guards patrolling their gardens? Or the California approach whereby the privatised fire services choose which house fires to put out, depending on your insurance policy?



What I would recommend is that the Gardai do their job. 

I would like to see them walking the streets. Their presence is often enough to deter unlawful behaviour. 
I would like to see them respond promptly to calls for help.
I would like to see the courts back them up instead of having a revolving door system.
I would like to see the government back them up with solid legislation.

All of these steps would lead to a safer and more content society. Would you not agree?


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## z103 (27 Mar 2008)

> What would you recommend? The South African approach whereby the remaining rich white people have armed security guards patrolling their gardens? Or the California approach whereby the privatised fire services choose which house fires to put out, depending on your insurance policy?


If we have an environment where everyone has a fair, equal chance to make money, then both of these systems would be fine.


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## Pique318 (27 Mar 2008)

leghorn said:


> If we have an environment where everyone has a fair, equal chance to make money, then both of these systems would be fine.




Excuse me ? You are drunk aren't you !


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## csirl (27 Mar 2008)

I think that Dublin is much safer than it was 20 years ago. Many former no-go areas in the city centre have been redeveloped and are now pleasant and safe. Same goes for some formerly notorious Dublin suburbs that have settled down as more people are working and earning good money - many of these are now nice places to live.

People seem to have forgotten the bad old days of dirty old Dublin in the 80s when much of the city centre was a dangerous ghost town after dark.


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## TheBlock (27 Mar 2008)

csirl said:


> I think that Dublin is much safer than it was 20 years ago. Many former no-go areas in the city centre have been redeveloped and are now pleasant and safe. Same goes for some formerly notorious Dublin suburbs that have settled down as more people are working and earning good money - many of these are now nice places to live.
> 
> People seem to have forgotten the bad old days of dirty old Dublin in the 80s when much of the city centre was a dangerous ghost town after dark.


 

Completeley agree with this....It's actually a lot safer getting around dublin now than it was in the 80's.


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## z103 (27 Mar 2008)

> Excuse me ? You are drunk aren't you !


Instead of the personal attacks, why don't you explain what you, presumably, disagree with?


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## gianni (27 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> When one looks at the series of drug-related serious crime along with large amounts of 'petty' violent crime (including the recent loss of a finger by a 17-year-old English rugby player who was accosted by some locals on O'Connell St on St Patrick's night), I find I just don't want to go out.


 
It's safe to go out again! 

Just avoid areas with spikey fences....


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## Marathon Man (27 Mar 2008)

TheBlock said:


> Completeley agree with this....It's actually a lot safer getting around dublin now than it was in the 80's.


 


csirl said:


> People seem to have forgotten the bad old days of dirty old Dublin in the 80s when much of the city centre was a dangerous ghost town after dark.


 
The incidents I referred to in the initial post happened, in the city centre, on a Friday evening between 5.45pm and 6.15pm. I lived in Dublin in the mid 70's and never felt unsafe. On the 14th, I was VERY alarmed by the incident on the Dart. I was shocked by the incident on O'Connell St., that at rush hour, on the main street in our capital city, an incident occurred and there wasn't a Garda to be seen.

In my experience, the main street of ANY large town abroad, would have a visible police presence at such a time AND, if ANY disturbance arises, the police are on the spot immediately.

For the past few years, we have had a lot of "noise"/waffle/PR/spin - call it what you want - from our politicians, but very little real action. 

I understand that the much heralded ASBO's have yet to be implemented (Anyone to comment on a case/report where one has been imposed?). 

If O'Connell Street cannot be policed adequately during times of high public presence (like Friday 14th March, 6pm), then what hope have we for the rest of the country?


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## Rovers1901 (27 Mar 2008)

No offence, but your original post refers to coming across an aggressive racist on the train and the fact that you didn't see a Garda on O'Connell St. And that a group of people were being messy and people crossed the road to avoid them.

That's hardly a tale of urban terror. Admittedly headcases on public transport are both intimidating and annoying.

There usually is a Garda outside the GPO, as indicated by yourself, maybe they were off dealing with something?? I'm not defending the Gardai, or the alarmingly poor attitude to policing that they frequently display, but what would have changed if a Garda had been on O'Connell St? 

The nutjob would have still been on the train, the group of lads/lassies would still have been walking around and you would have continued your journey, as you did, reaching your destination with all limbs intact and wallets in your pocket.

The fear of being assaulted is out of all porportion to the chances of it happening, in my opinion anyway. This sort of attitude isn't restricted to Dublin or even Ireland either.


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## Marathon Man (27 Mar 2008)

Rovers1901 said:


> No offence, but your original post refers to coming across an aggressive racist on the train and the fact that you didn't see a Garda on O'Connell St. And that a group of people were being messy and people crossed the road to avoid them.


.....that was sanitised nicely......Why?  To justify the last line of your post?



> That's hardly a tale of urban terror. Admittedly headcases on public transport are both intimidating and annoying.


One comes across "headcases" all the time, public transport or elsewhere.  This individual was NOT your regular "headcase".   What happened on the Dart went FAR beyond intimidation and annoyance. You may water it down all you like, but that's what occurred.



> There usually is a Garda outside the GPO, as indicated by yourself, maybe they were off dealing with something?? I'm not defending the Gardai, or the alarmingly poor attitude to policing that they frequently display, but what would have changed if a Garda had been on O'Connell St?


He/she might actually have assisted someone who'd been robbed...maybe even take witness details.... What do you think they might do? 



> The nutjob would have still been on the train, the group of lads/lassies would still have been walking around and you would have continued your journey, as you did, reaching your destination with all limbs intact and wallets in your pocket.
> 
> The fear of being assaulted is out of all porportion to the chances of it happening, in my opinion anyway. This sort of attitude isn't restricted to Dublin or even Ireland either.


I don't follow your line of arguement at all.  You seem to feel that we should accept the type of behaviour referred to by me, and others in this thread, as being "normal" and acceptable...and, sure, it happens everywhere else too.

The fundamental point I am making throughout is that I do NOT find it acceptable.  Nor do I accept that the authorities, including the politicians and Garda are doing an adequate job.  I won't even award marks for effort.


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## Complainer (28 Mar 2008)

shnaek said:


> What I would recommend is that the Gardai do their job.
> 
> I would like to see them walking the streets. Their presence is often enough to deter unlawful behaviour.
> I would like to see them respond promptly to calls for help.
> ...


I would agree with most of this, though I'm not convinced on the need for more legislation. This seems to be used as a knee-jerk response to take attention away from implementing the legislation that we currently have.


leghorn said:


> If we have an environment where everyone has a fair, equal chance to make money, then both of these systems would be fine.


Mmmm, now there's an interesting theory. Let me know when you think we have a fair, equal society. [Did you spot the recent press articles noting that kids from rougher areas of Dublin are 30 times more likely to end up before the courts than those from 'nice' areas?]

But even if we did have a fair, equal society, I really don't think that private, armed security guards are the answer. That's not the kind of environment I want to bring up my kids in.


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## Purple (28 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> I would agree with most of this, though I'm not convinced on the need for more legislation. This seems to be used as a knee-jerk response to take attention away from implementing the legislation that we currently have.


 I agree with you there but more because the Judges choose to ignore the laws that the people, through their government, put in place. One example of this is the mandatory 10 year prison term for possession of large amounts of drugs, judges seem to think that most of the cases that go before them are exceptional and ignore this legislation. They may or may not be correct that such a law is a blunt instrument but it is not up to them to decide to ignore the will of the people in a democracy.



Complainer said:


> Mmmm, now there's an interesting theory. Let me know when you think we have a fair, equal society. [Did you spot the recent press articles noting that kids from rougher areas of Dublin are 30 times more likely to end up before the courts than those from 'nice' areas?


 I'm from one of those rougher areas and I don't accept for a minute that it excuses in any way the behaviour of those who break the law or engage in antisocial behaviour. The biggest single reason that these kids are 30 times more likely to end up before the courts is that their parents did not do their job properly. The problem is social, not economic.



Complainer said:


> But even if we did have a fair, equal society, I really don't think that private, armed security guards are the answer. That's not the kind of environment I want to bring up my kids in.


I agree that this is not desirable but I don't think it is what was being suggested. The structures of this country are fair and equal. The rest is up to the individual. If a 10 year old kid is on the street at 11pm it is not the fault of the government, the police, the teachers or "social deprivation", it is 100% the fault of their parents.


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## stir crazy (28 Mar 2008)

I think no police force can eliminate crime. It happens. Drawing on one or a few incidents doesnt prove a thing. 
The police need the support of the people as long as they are the only means we have in place of holding civilisation together. I've been in and around the city centre for most of my life and experienced very little crime. Of course when it happens and you didnt expect it, you feel powerless and shocked and upset and vulnerable and angry and a whole range of emotions but I think the good cops who do their jobs should be supported. Try putting yourself in their shoes with gougers everywhere with broken bottles who would love to stick one into a cop.
Whether the bad stories about cops are urban legends or not I dont know. I've heard rumors about fraudulent behaviour by cops in Kerry that still goes on among other things. It's disappointing to hear about it but crime is a part of human nature. The Guards by and large didnt create the crime. They merely are tasked with cleaning up after it. And when they go home to their families they are a part of ordinary society too. Thats what I see.


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## shnaek (28 Mar 2008)

stir crazy said:


> I think no police force can eliminate crime. It happens. Drawing on one or a few incidents doesnt prove a thing.


I don't know if anyone is trying to 'prove' anything here. I think people are suggesting that 
we need more active Garda involvement, and more support from Judges and from the community in making our society a safer and more pleasant environment for everyone to live in.




stir crazy said:


> The police need the support of the people as long as they are the only means we have in place of holding civilisation together.


Dramatically put, but they do need our support alright, and we need theirs.



stir crazy said:


> I've been in and around the city centre for most of my life and experienced very little crime.


Good for you. Many friends of mine have been mugged in Dublin. Just because you have been lucky enough not to experience it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This is an 'I'm okay, Jack' attitude that won't serve you well if you are eventually a victim of a serious crime which could have been prevented in the first place with competent law enforcement.



stir crazy said:


> It's disappointing to hear about it but crime is a part of human nature. The Guards by and large didnt create the crime. They merely are tasked with cleaning up after it. And when they go home to their families they are a part of ordinary society too. Thats what I see.


Crime is a part of society, and law enforcement is a part of civilised society. The 'sh*t happens' attitude isn't of any use to society however, in terms of law enforcement. Yes the Gardai have to deal with scumbags. That is part of their job! If they didn't want that job they should have chosen a different profession! One chief role of the Gardai is to preserve law and order, and a 'crime happens' attitude is not one I would like to see in the ones I trust to preserve law and order on our streets.



Purple said:


> The biggest single reason that these kids are 30 times more likely to end up before the courts is that their parents did not do their job properly. The problem is social, not economic.
> ...
> If a 10 year old kid is on the street at 11pm it is not the fault of the government, the police, the teachers or "social deprivation, it is 100% the fault of their parents.



I agree with this 100%, and it is another issue that we as a society have to tackle. I see more articles and letters relating to this issue in the papers recently - so I think it is something we are becoming more aware of.


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## Complainer (29 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> I agree with you there but more because the Judges choose to ignore the laws that the people, through their government, put in place. One example of this is the mandatory 10 year prison term for possession of large amounts of drugs, judges seem to think that most of the cases that go before them are exceptional and ignore this legislation. They may or may not be correct that such a law is a blunt instrument but it is not up to them to decide to ignore the will of the people in a democracy.


I'd generally agree here.



Purple said:


> I'm from one of those rougher areas


Me too. Wanna play the Monty Python 'luxury' sketch game to see who had the rougher area? 



Purple said:


> I'm from one of those rougher areas and I don't accept for a minute that it excuses in any way the behaviour of those who break the law or engage in antisocial behaviour. The biggest single reason that these kids are 30 times more likely to end up before the courts is that their parents did not do their job properly. The problem is social, not economic.


I agree that parenting is a huge issue, but I don't share your certainty that it is the 'biggest single reason'. If you stick people in badly planned communities, with crap housing, crap facilities, crap transport links and crap employment prospects, then this environment is surely going to have an impact on the kids who are brought up there. I'm not stating this by way of excuse, and it is not about letting parents off the hook. 

Even if you do just look at parenting, you have to go beneath the surface. Why is parenting so weak in this communities? It is not genetic or sheer laziness. Again, the poor economic status is the key underlying link between
these communities. It's not coincidence.



Purple said:


> I agree that this is not desirable but I don't think it is what was being suggested. The structures of this country are fair and equal. The rest is up to the individual. If a 10 year old kid is on the street at 11pm it is not the fault of the government, the police, the teachers or "social deprivation", it is 100% the fault of their parents.


We are an awful long way from a fair and equal society. People die in the public health system that would have lived if they had private health insurance (Ref. Suzie Long). Children with disabilities are being excluded from some secondary schools (typically the 'better' schools). Children whose first language is not English can't get assessments for Dyslexia or ADHD because all the assessment materials and all the assessors are English-based.

I agree that parents are responsible for not having 10-year-old kids on the streets, but Daily Mail-type 'blame the parents' editorials fail to look at the root causes.


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## stir crazy (29 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> If you stick people in badly planned communities, with crap housing, crap facilities, crap transport links and crap employment prospects, then this environment is surely going to have an impact on the kids who are brought up there. I'm not stating this by way of excuse, and it is not about letting parents off the hook.
> 
> Even if you do just look at parenting, you have to go beneath the surface. Why is parenting so weak in this communities? It is not genetic or sheer laziness. Again, the poor economic status is the key underlying link between
> these communities. It's not coincidence.



I'd have to say in one case, inner city Dublin was always close to most city jobs with the best transport and facilities available. It's up to the individual to exploit this as a responsible citizen. Therefore what is the root cause of crime in this case ?



Complainer said:


> Children with disabilities are being excluded from some secondary schools (typically the 'better' schools). Children whose first language is not English can't get assessments for Dyslexia or ADHD because all the assessment materials and all the assessors are English-based.



Wrong though that may be, I see a negligible effect on crime as a result as those cases appear small compared to people who in my opinion have no excuse.




Purple said:


> If a 10 year old kid is on the street at 11pm it is not the fault of the government, the police, the teachers or "social deprivation", it is 100% the fault of their parents.



I agree with this 100%. I think parents should be made responsible for the effect of their children upon wider society. When dealing with the parents, the kid gloves need to be taken off.


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## Complainer (29 Mar 2008)

stir crazy said:


> I'd have to say in one case, inner city Dublin was always close to most city jobs with the best transport and facilities available. It's up to the individual to exploit this as a responsible citizen. Therefore what is the root cause of crime in this case ?


First of all, while inner-city Dublin was indeed close to transport links, I had absolutely nothing else. Housing conditions in the traditional inner city Dublin in areas like Sherrif St, Summerhill, Cathal Bruga St, Constitution Hill, City Quay, Pearse House were pretty appaling.

Secondly, I don't claim to have all the answers. So why don't you tell me what you think is the root cause of crime in this case.



stir crazy said:


> Wrong though that may be, I see a negligible effect on crime as a result as those cases appear small compared to people who in my opinion have no excuse.


Maybe those cases aren't so small. People with disabilities make up about 10% of the population. And the examples I gave above are just that, some quick top-of-the-head examples. They do not by any means give a full picture of the inequalities that exist today. I've worked in the past in the disability sector, so it's an area I have some understanding of.  If you want to start getting a fuller picture of the inequalities facility people with disabilities, look at the lack of access to decent theraputic services (e.g. speech therapy for children with learning disabilities, ABA education for children with autism, physiotherapy for children with physical disabilities), look at the lack of access to all levels of education for children with all kinds of disabilities, look at the lack of access to public transport, look at the lack of access to employment, and for those who do manage to get into employment, look at the lack of access to promotional and development opportunities, look at the lack of access to housing, look at the lack of access to cultural activities and entertainment etc etc etc. 

Look at the big picture.


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## Purple (29 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> Me too. Wanna play the Monty Python 'luxury' sketch game to see who had the rougher area?


 When I were a lad... 



Complainer said:


> I agree that parenting is a huge issue, but I don't share your certainty that it is the 'biggest single reason'. If you stick people in badly planned communities, with crap housing, crap facilities, crap transport links and crap employment prospects, then this environment is surely going to have an impact on the kids who are brought up there. I'm not stating this by way of excuse, and it is not about letting parents off the hook.


 I agree that these are factors, major factors, but they make it harder for parents; not impossible.



Complainer said:


> Even if you do just look at parenting, you have to go beneath the surface. Why is parenting so weak in this communities? It is not genetic or sheer laziness. Again, the poor economic status is the key underlying link between
> these communities. It's not coincidence.


 Agreed that it’s a link but I don’t think it’s that simple. I think that the social attitude and the economic status are linked and feed each other. There are plenty of people (that I know) in these areas with more disposable income than I have.  They just choose to spend it differently and have different priorities. 




Complainer said:


> We are an awful long way from a fair and equal society. People die in the public health system that would have lived if they had private health insurance (Ref. Suzie Long). Children with disabilities are being excluded from some secondary schools (typically the 'better' schools). Children whose first language is not English can't get assessments for Dyslexia or ADHD because all the assessment materials and all the assessors are English-based.


 No society is perfect and usually attempts at social engineering beyond a certain point are counterproductive.



Complainer said:


> I agree that parents are responsible for not having 10-year-old kids on the streets, but Daily Mail-type 'blame the parents' editorials fail to look at the root causes.


 I don’t read English newspapers but I take your point. I would add that editorials that excuse such bad parenting and discount it as a (if not thee) root cause are even more damaging.

Everything needs to be seen in context but ultimately we are responsible for our own actions and have the same duty and responsibility to our children, our neighbours and society in general as everyone else.


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## stir crazy (29 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> First of all, while inner-city Dublin was indeed close to transport links, I had absolutely nothing else. Housing conditions in the traditional inner city Dublin in areas like Sherrif St, Summerhill, Cathal Bruga St, Constitution Hill, City Quay, Pearse House were pretty appaling.
> 
> Secondly, I don't claim to have all the answers. So why don't you tell me what you think is the root cause of crime in this case.



A roof over your head, a tv set, food, a school and a library plus easy transport into the city centre with parks and swimming pools etc was always available for most of these cases.
The most culpable people are in my opinion the parents. No matter what section of society you grow up in, your parents can make a huge difference to your life. This and wider society who might judge you for having a non middle class  accent if you tried to leave the social box you grew up in. In that sense it begins with the parents but ends elsewhere.




Complainer said:


> Maybe those cases aren't so small. People with disabilities make up about 10% of the population.



Disability does not equal criminal and not all disabilities are the same.
When was the last time you were mugged by somebody in a wheelchair for example ? And what percentage of the criminal population have no such excuses ?


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## Complainer (30 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> .
> No society is perfect and usually attempts at social engineering beyond a certain point are counterproductive.


Do you consider equal access to schools for children with disabilities, and equal access to medical treatments for children from different nationalities to be 'social engineering'?


Purple said:


> .
> Everything needs to be seen in context but ultimately we are responsible for our own actions and have the same duty and responsibility to our children, our neighbours and society in general as everyone else.



I fully agree, but again I'd point to the big picture. Our responsibilities to society in general extend beyond making sure our kids aren't causing trouble. Our responsibilities include creating of a fair and equitable society. And yet, when we enter the ballot box, we will almost certainly vote on a 'what's in it for me' basis.



stir crazy said:


> A roof over your head, a tv set, food, a school and a library plus easy transport into the city centre with parks and swimming pools etc was always available for most of these cases.
> The most culpable people are in my opinion the parents. No matter what section of society you grow up in, your parents can make a huge difference to your life. This and wider society who might judge you for having a non middle class accent if you tried to leave the social box you grew up in. In that sense it begins with the parents but ends elsewhere.


A 'roof over your head' doesn't quite adequately describe the housing situation in inner-city council housing or flats. 'food' doesn't quite describe the situation where kids are hungry by 11 am in school. It's kinda hard to give full attention to leaving cert maths when you're hungry. 



stir crazy said:


> Disability does not equal criminal and not all disabilities are the same.


Assuming that you're not being deliberately obtuse, let me clarify that I wasn't trying to link Disability with criminality. I was simply answering the claim that we have a 'fair and equal society'. We don't.


stir crazy said:


> When was the last time you were mugged by somebody in a wheelchair for example ?


 A more interesting question might be when was the last time you were mugged by somebody with a mental illness or a learning disability?


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## stir crazy (30 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> A 'roof over your head' doesn't quite adequately describe the housing situation in inner-city council housing or flats.



I know exactly what is provided. Immense resources are thrown into housing council tenants who for example pay rent of 50 euro a week or much less where their neighbours in the private sector on the same road might pay 500  a week. They then often do not exercise their responsibility to stop their children from vandalising common areas. As a result common areas are left with minimum facilities (trees not being replanted for example) because the council has learned from experience that those facilities get vandalised again and again and more investment is simply throwing good money after bad.  Unlike the private sector the council takes its responsibility to repair its dwellings very seriously and will repair the plumbing etc free of charge if  a problem emerges. Double glazing, draught proofing and central heating systems are installed as a matter of course nowadays. Compare this to a damp and cramped bedsit, often with no shower or toilet for which a private sector landlord will often charge way more than a council tenant is paying for a 3 bedroom house with bath and garden and at the same time this private sector landlord will often refuse to make good any necessary repairs. Basically, anyone who has council housing has it made.



Complainer said:


> It's kinda hard to give full attention to leaving cert maths when you're hungry.



Again the fault of the parents. However I think at the leaving cert stage that the child is a young adult and will be capable enough to find food somewhere if there really exists a food problem. There is an abundance of food and supports in this country. A three course meal can be had in a Temple Bar homeless shelter for 1.60 euro for example.




Complainer said:


> Assuming that you're not being deliberately obtuse, let me clarify that I wasn't trying to link Disability with criminality.



Why thank you for your good faith. If you are not attempting to create such a link then why raise the issue of disability within the context of criminality at all ?




Complainer said:


> A more interesting question might be when was the last time you were mugged by somebody with a mental illness or a learning disability?



I have written explaining my experience of crime earlier in this thread.
However how am I supposed to know if someone who is a criminal also has a mental illness or learning disability ? And if, as you claim, you are not attempting to establish a link between this group and criminality then why ask such a question ?


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## Purple (30 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> Do you consider equal access to schools for children with disabilities, and equal access to medical treatments for children from different nationalities to be 'social engineering'?


 Yes, what else is it? I think it is desirable social engineering.
Communism is the intimate form of social engineering which attempts to create an equal society. It has been shown that this does not achieve the desired result. Any system which ignores human selfishness, the desire to protect and advantage your family and the fact that some people just work harder and/or are smarter than others is doomed to failure. That’s what I mean by too much social engineering. At the stage when parents can choose to sit on their asses because the state will provide a good life for them and their children we have passed the point where the damage to society outweighs the benefit to the individual. People should be helped to help themselves but they should not have things done for them in the long term which they should be doing for themselves.  




Complainer said:


> I fully agree, but again I'd point to the big picture. Our responsibilities to society in general extend beyond making sure our kids aren't causing trouble. Our responsibilities include creating of a fair and equitable society. And yet, when we enter the ballot box, we will almost certainly vote on a 'what's in it for me' basis.


That's why we have TD's from all over the country, if some people choose not to use their vote that's not my problem. When I vote I look at what’s best for me in an economic context but also from the point of view of the society I live in. A degree of wealth redistribution is necessary for a cohesive society but too much stifles ambition and rewards laziness.  Where the balance should be struck is the question.


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## Complainer (30 Mar 2008)

stir crazy said:


> I know exactly what is provided. Immense resources are thrown into housing council tenants who for example pay rent of 50 euro a week or much less where their neighbours in the private sector on the same road might pay 500  a week. They then often do not exercise their responsibility to stop their children from vandalising common areas. As a result common areas are left with minimum facilities (trees not being replanted for example) because the council has learned from experience that those facilities get vandalised again and again and more investment is simply throwing good money after bad.  Unlike the private sector the council takes its responsibility to repair its dwellings very seriously and will repair the plumbing etc free of charge if  a problem emerges. Double glazing, draught proofing and central heating systems are installed as a matter of course nowadays. Compare this to a damp and cramped bedsit, often with no shower or toilet for which a private sector landlord will often charge way more than a council tenant is paying for a 3 bedroom house with bath and garden and at the same time this private sector landlord will often refuse to make good any necessary repairs. Basically, anyone who has council housing has it made.


It is interesting to note that you assume that vandalism is caused by council tenants and not anyone else. What is your basis for this assumption?

Your assumption of double-glazing/draught-proofing/central heating is not the case for many, many council tenants. Come out and see the flats in Rosemount in Dundrum or St Nathi's in Churchtown, and you won't find much double-glazing/draught-proofing/central heating. I don't think the tenants in these developments would quite feel that they have it made.






stir crazy said:


> Again the fault of the parents. However I think at the leaving cert stage that the child is a young adult and will be capable enough to find food somewhere if there really exists a food problem. There is an abundance of food and supports in this country. A three course meal can be had in a Temple Bar homeless shelter for 1.60 euro for example.


Are you suggesting that Leaving Cert students should be expected to go to homeless sheters to get fed? And what about the primary school students? Do you want them to head into the city centre homeless shelter as well?

But lets just go with your 'fault of the parents' line. Why do you reckon that many parents in socially deprived areas are sending kids to school hungry? Were these parents born as 'bad people'?0




stir crazy said:


> Why thank you for your good faith. If you are not attempting to create such a link then why raise the issue of disability within the context of criminality at all ?


I'll explain it a second time then, seeing as you seemed to miss my explaination above. I wasn't trying to link Disability with criminality. I was simply answering the claim that we have a 'fair and equal society'. We don't.




stir crazy said:


> I have written explaining my experience of crime earlier in this thread.
> However how am I supposed to know if someone who is a criminal also has a mental illness or learning disability ? And if, as you claim, you are not attempting to establish a link between this group and criminality then why ask such a question ?


I ask such a question to highlight the narrow-mindedness of your question where you seem to equate wheelchairs with disability. The fact that mental health and learning disabilities are often not visible to the passer-by does not reduce their impact, and in some ways, it increases the impact.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> But lets just go with your 'fault of the parents' line. Why do you reckon that many parents in socially deprived areas are sending kids to school hungry? Were these parents born as 'bad people'?


 Good question. I think they are inadequate people who cannot cope with life and don’t have the skills to make sure that their children are fed. If either parent smokes even one packet of cigarettes a week then there is no excuse for one or two children to go to school hungry. Whatever way you look at it the problem is not financial, it’s social. Unless the parents are in some way mentally deficient then it’s 100% their fault. There is no reason why any child should go to school hungry, there are all sorts of services, both governmental and charitable, which are in place to stop this happening.

Who do you think is at fault?


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## stir crazy (31 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> It is interesting to note that you assume that vandalism is caused by council tenants and not anyone
> else. What is your basis for this assumption?



Its' not an assumption. I have years of first hand experience both living in such areas and also in working with the council. 
My solution is name and shame. An area should be given a fixed budget and if trees are vandalised for example. It should be made clear something like the following :' because the playground was destroyed therefore we have no money for 'insert worthy cause.'




Complainer said:


> Your assumption of double-glazing/draught-proofing/central heating is not the case for many, many council tenants. Come out and see the flats in Rosemount in Dundrum or St Nathi's in Churchtown, and you won't find much double-glazing/draught-proofing/central heating. I don't think
> the tenants in these developments would quite feel that they have it
> made.



Where in inner city dublin will you find unrefurbished flats or flats where no plan for refurbishment are in place ? As for having it made, try asking them to exchange their subsidised housing for a private sector bedsit landlord and see what kind of response you get. 




Complainer said:


> Are you suggesting that Leaving Cert students should be expected to go to homeless sheters to get fed? And what about the primary school students? Do you want them to head into the city centre homeless shelter as well?



I think you'll agree its better than starving to death. If you dont think such a scenario is 100% the fault and responsibility of the parents then you are 100%  wrong. The teachers, neighbours and health board will spot any signs of malnourishment. In fact anyone in wider society will spot this. Even a childs GP can prescribe health shakes which have enough calories and vitamins to get an elephant up mount Everest.




Complainer said:


> Why do you reckon that many parents in socially deprived areas are sending kids to school hungry? Were
> these parents born as 'bad people' ?0




I think these people would buy and sell you such is your apparent naivety. Theres no excuse for any child going to school hungry.
Existance of such an excuse is a complete red herring. There is no excuse. Of course when it happens there is possibly a myriad 
of reasons but the ultimate reason is negligence by the parent. Try walking into most of the 'council estates' in inner city Dublin and observe how many post 2002 or 06/07 cars there are parked in these places. I know. These places are no longer deprived and are close to facilities, jobs and transport even with everything within walking distance. It's my observation they spend their money and don't save it but money they most certainly have. The biggest problem this society had in the past was unemployment. Now the residents of formerly deprived areas have access to good employment and while getting paid a good wage they also have very little rent to pay. Thats what I call 'having it made.' 
I would call any parent who does not feed his child  a bad person. But it's not my observation that children in these areas are not well fed. It's my observation 
that especially given our recent economic success that children in these areas get  a lot of what they want and are well loved and taken care of in the majority.




Complainer said:


> I'll explain it a second time then, seeing as you
> seemed to miss my explaination above. I wasn't trying to link Disability with criminality. I was simply answering the claim that we have a 'fair and equal
> society'. We don't.



Who claimed we have a fair and equal society ? Isnt' it obvious that until everyone is born with 2 arms and 2 legs and with the same amount of money, health 
emotional stability and IQ that nothing will be equal ? Social enginering has limitations. Mother nature has seen to that. We are not empowered to play God.




Complainer said:


> I ask such a question to highlight the narrow-mindedness of your question where you seem to equate
> wheelchairs with disability. The fact that mental health and learning disabilities are often not visible to the passer-by does not reduce their impact, and in
> some ways, it increases the impact.



I was'nt aware that a question had a mind. A person who uses a wheelchair is at minimum physically disabled therefore it is correct to equate a wheelchair user with having some kind of long or short term physical disability. Are you narrow minded enough to state that personal responsibility isnt an issue in any of these cases? Only a moron would think there is only one type of disability.  You should be careful about unfounded assumptions causing jumping to erroneous conclusions especially since  the style you're apparently comfortable with is in the asking of questions rather than the answering of them.

While the causes of crime are complex, the best practice is in my view all about the more efficient use of resources and not the communist approach of throwing an infinite amount of good money after bad because money is scarce and should be put to best use for maximum effect.
This is why the council stopped replacing vandalised street furniture and trees in many of even their best areas after the same vandalised benches and shubbery were destroyed about 20 times in a  row. Whats the point of paying over big bucks to replace these items if  these items are not appreciated and also if for example  a mammogram machine can instead be purchased by the state with the accumulated savings ?


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## room305 (31 Mar 2008)

stir crazy said:


> Its' not an assumption. ..etc ......


 
Excellent post.


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## Purple (1 Apr 2008)

Complainer, do you accept that while there are often environmental factors which contribute to behavioural patterns ultimately adults are responsible for their own actions?


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