# British citizenship



## Peeete (28 Feb 2008)

If both parents of a child are Irish nationals and have always lived in the south, but give birth to a child in northern Ireland (Daisy Hill hospital in Newry), is the child entitled to both Irish and British citizenship?


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## ClubMan (28 Feb 2008)

Don't think so. Just like us I don't think that being born in the jurisdiction of itself automatically grants citizenship. See  for example:


> [FONT=Georgia, Times, Serif]*Birth in the UK*
> People who were born in the UK before 1983 were automatically British citizens by birth. The only exception to this was children whose parents were working here as diplomats at the time they were born.
> 
> Anybody born here after 1 January 1983 is automatically British if at the time of the birth:
> ...


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## Desert Fox (28 Feb 2008)

Peeete said:


> If both parents of a child are Irish nationals and have always lived in the south, but give birth to a child in northern Ireland (Daisy Hill hospital in Newry), is the child entitled to both Irish and British citizenship?



Being born in a country doesn't necessarily mean that the child will get citizenship of that country. Persons who were born in Ireland before 1949 may claim British citizenship and their children could then claim it on that basis. However, there have been some moves to tighten up eligibility for UK citizenship (and British passports!), especially since 1983. Re Irish citizenship, the child's eligibility may be subject to their parents' citizenship or citizenships. The person or people concerned would be better off contacting the British embassy in Dublin (I've found them to be extremely helpful and polite) as well as the Department of Foreign Affairs here (for the Irish citizenship element). Best of luck.


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## csirl (29 Feb 2008)

Given that both Ireland & UK are in the EU, I'm note sure that there are any advantages to be gained by having a UK passport if you already have an Irish one.

At the danger of starting a technical legal argument on this thread, technically speaking, due to citizenship being at the sovereignty level in Ireland whereas citizenship is at the subject level in UK, you are probably better off not taking UK citizenship.


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## gallon (29 Feb 2008)

Well when I (Irish passport holder and born in Ireland) was living in London, I needed to get a passport for my son (who was born in London_. I applied for for him to get an Irish one, as far as a passport was concerned all was required was for one parent to be born in Southern Ireland (admittedly there are some stipulations about north and south etc. but they had to be born in Ireland, a passport holder was not enough). 



However I believe citzenship is a slightly different issue, I could be wrong but here is what I remember. When I was living the UK I declared residency over there, then when I was a legal resident after 5 years I could claim citzenship. However as I was a legal resident my son could have gotten a British passport then, however  I believe as we live over in Ireland now, he can only do now get a British passport when he is 16.  

Honestly I don't know much about the Irish process but I would imagine it is similar. Also there have been a lot of changes to these laws in Ireland and the UK recently , I would contact relevant embassies, as I found them very helpful on matters like this in the past.


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## SarahMc (2 Mar 2008)

Goodness, ye all have short memories, do you not remember the referendum on the Good Friday Agreement, and Articles 2 and 3?


From Citizensinformation.ie

The Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2001 gives effect in Irish citizenship law to Article 1(vi) of the Agreement. In that provision, both the British and Irish Governments recognise *"the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose". *
In this context, the term "the people of Northern Ireland" means "*all persons born in Northern Ireland and having, at the time of their birth, at least one parent who is a British citizen, an Irish citizen* or is otherwise entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence".


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## GeneralZod (2 Mar 2008)

csirl said:


> Given that both Ireland & UK are in the EU, I'm note sure that there are any advantages to be gained by having a UK passport if you already have an Irish one.
> 
> At the danger of starting a technical legal argument on this thread, technically speaking, due to citizenship being at the sovereignty level in Ireland whereas citizenship is at the subject level in UK, you are probably better off not taking UK citizenship.



Being eligible for jobs that are only open to UK subjects is one advantage to having both passports or just the UK one as required.


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## stir crazy (3 Mar 2008)

what about things like student grants,loans and supports like that which might not be available to non uk citizens etc  ?


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## Peeete (4 Apr 2008)

As far as I am aware there is also the advantage of visas for certain non-EU countries where there are bilateral agreements - e.g. Australia.

Sarah I had looked at the Good Friday agreement - but wasn't sure if it applied in this case. If it does giving birth to a child could open up a number of loopholes such as the Visa issue, or UK jobs as mentioned below.


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## sparkeee (4 Apr 2008)

would that make the parents eligible for british national health,could be quicker than waiting for treatment here.


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## bond-007 (4 Apr 2008)

Peeete said:


> As far as I am aware there is also the advantage of visas for certain non-EU countries where there are bilateral agreements - e.g. Australia.



Also with the former colonies, Canada, New Zealand. The UAE does not require visas of UK citizens. There are numerous more countries that are visa free for UK citizens but not for IRL citizens. Also in many countries UK citizens are given an easier time with immigration procedures at airports on arrival, again these are usually commonwealth countries and the ex colonies.

Given the choice I would renounce and claim UK citizenship.


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## gearoid (4 Apr 2008)

Not wishing to be a pedant or constitutional bore here, and correct me if I'm wrong.

Aren't you a British subject, or an Irish citizen? I must say I prefer the Irish terminology.

Other Irish advantages...

1) If you get in trouble in Iran or the Middle East in general.

2) While travelling in Zimbabwe , and hopefully only for the next few weeks.

3) When ordering beers in Spain ...


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## bond-007 (4 Apr 2008)

The term British subject is now largely defunct. There is still a British Subjects passport available to Irish Citizens born before 1949, which is almost useless as a passport. It is no good for visa free travel to Canada or the USA. 

A full UK passport holder is a British Citizen. Actually my partner is designated as a UK overseas citizen.


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## ClubMan (4 Apr 2008)

bond-007 said:


> Actually my partner is designated as a UK overseas citizen.


Do they ever use an acronym for that and if so how is it (_UKOC_) pronounced?


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## Peeete (4 Apr 2008)

I think the advantage to being born in the north - while living/residing in the south is that you can get dual citizenship - the best of both worlds (depending on opinion)



gearoid said:


> Not wishing to be a pedant or constitutional bore here, and correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Aren't you a British subject, or an Irish citizen? I must say I prefer the Irish terminology.
> 
> ...


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## sparkeee (4 Apr 2008)

would an irish citizen be (icit) pronounced.


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## bond-007 (4 Apr 2008)

I certainly have never heard of such acronym.


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## Peeete (4 Apr 2008)

sparkeee said:


> would an irish citizen be (icit) pronounced.



whats the icit for?


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## z103 (4 Apr 2008)

> 1) If you get in trouble in Iran or the Middle East in general.
> 2) ...<snip>...
> 3) When ordering beers in Spain ...



Do you need a passport to order beers in Spain?

I wonder would you fair better with a British or Irish passport if you were taken hostage in the Middle East? Ireland can't really claim to be neutral any more (Shannon).


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## VanHeusen (8 Apr 2008)

bond-007 said:


> There are numerous more countries that are visa free for UK citizens but not for IRL citizens.


 
Not true. Per Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_passport

According to a study done by Henley & Partners, Ireland has a Henley Visa Restrictions Index of 129, which means that Irish citizens enjoy visa-free access to 129 countries and territories for short-term tourism visits. *Ireland is ranked 2nd in the study in terms of international travel freedom.*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_passport

According to a study done by Henley & Partners, the UK has a Henley Visa Restrictions Index of 128, which means that British citizens enjoy visa-free access to 128 countries and territories for short-term tourism visits. *The UK is ranked 3rd in the study in terms of international travel freedom.* However this survey did not address British National (Overseas) and other British passports.


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## Berlin (8 Apr 2008)

Because a man is born in a stable that does not make him a horse. The Duke of Wellington's thought on his being born in Ireland.


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## Peeete (9 Apr 2008)

VanHeusen said:


> Not true. Per Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_passport
> 
> According to a study done by Henley & Partners, Ireland has a Henley Visa Restrictions Index of 129, which means that Irish citizens enjoy visa-free access to 129 countries and territories for short-term tourism visits. *Ireland is ranked 2nd in the study in terms of international travel freedom.*
> ...



However, with respect to work visas, I think the UK passport gives more options


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## bond-007 (9 Apr 2008)

Peeete said:


> However, with respect to work visas, I think the UK passport gives more options


Correct. It is easier to get work visas for certain commonwealth countries.

As I said earlier the UK passport holder is often treated better in visa free situations, i.e. less questioning at immigration counters, longer stays granted etc.


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## VanHeusen (9 Apr 2008)

bond-007 said:


> Correct. It is easier to get work visas for certain commonwealth countries.



Could you give some examples, please?




bond-007 said:


> As I said earlier the UK passport holder is often treated better in visa free situations, i.e. less questioning at immigration counters



I beg to differ. Definitely not the case in the US or Canada.




bond-007 said:


> longer stays granted etc.



I agree. 180 days instead of usual 90 for tourist visits in some countries.


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## bond-007 (9 Apr 2008)

VanHeusen said:


> Could you give some examples, please?


Most of the African former colonies, not that anyone would want to work there. 



VanHeusen said:


> I beg to differ. Definitely not the case in the US or Canada.


My partner is a UK passport holder and I have certainly noticed that there is less questioning on entering the USA and Canada. 



VanHeusen said:


> I agree. 180 days instead of usual 90 for tourist visits in some countries.


New Zealand, Canada and many others offer this privilege.


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## BillK (9 Apr 2008)

I was born in the UK to Irish born parents and have both Irish and British passports; is it no longer possible for the child to follow this route?


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## bond-007 (9 Apr 2008)

When and where was the child born?

You might be in luck.


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## Peeete (9 Apr 2008)

bond-007 said:


> When and where was the child born?
> 
> You might be in luck.



Is this question to me? - if so in the north


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## bond-007 (9 Apr 2008)

Yep. 

Your child can be a dual passport holder.


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