# Crk City 1984 - 2009 - R.I.P. ?



## Deiseblue (27 Jul 2009)

Cork City to be wound up per today's High Court.
City have until Friday to appeal.


----------



## Holtend82 (27 Jul 2009)

They owe a hatful of money, it looks like the end of the line.


----------



## csirl (28 Jul 2009)

There seems to be an attitude with the LOI that money owed to Revenue should not be paid unless you are forced to. That tax money should essentially be risked on the transfer market in the hope that new signings will bring success and money. This attitude needs to change or we'll see a lot more clubs being wound up. Clubs need to ring fence the money they owe in taxes and not spend it.


----------



## Graham_07 (28 Jul 2009)

Any limited company (sporting or otherwise) which does not discharge it's obligations under the Taxes Acts risks a Revenue initiated winding up. Revenue cannot and should not treat this case any differently and the defendents should not expect to be treated any differently.


----------



## bren1916 (28 Jul 2009)

Awwghhh......thought for a minute that the city of Cork (as an entity)was being wound up!


----------



## csirl (28 Jul 2009)

bren1916 said:


> Awwghhh......thought for a minute that the city of Cork (as an entity)was being wound up!


 
Isnt this being proposed by Bord Snip - Cork City will be abolished and whole lot will be Cork County.


----------



## TarfHead (28 Jul 2009)

They're going on about it on Liveline at the moment.

I thought the '_best fans in the world_' came from Munster  ?


----------



## Mpsox (28 Jul 2009)

There's a tradition in Cork of LOI clubs going to the wall, Hibs, United, Athletic and now City. By LOI standards City are pretty well supported, but not enough to maintain full time soccer at the wages players look for nowadays. Doesn't help that they don't own the ground so they end up paying rent for Turners Cross but can't use it for other events to raise money. I always thought they'd be better off trying to develpe and share Musgrave park with Munster

And for all the mickey takers out there, as the saying goes, there are 2 types of people in the world, those that come from Cork and everyone else that wishes they did. In time, you will understand and accept that, boy !!!!


----------



## TarfHead (28 Jul 2009)

Mpsox said:


> as the saying goes, there are 2 types of people in the world, those that come from Cork and everyone else that wishes they did.


 
Those that come from Cork, and those that wish they'd stay there  !

Maybe NAMA could flog them a site for a ground of their own  ?


----------



## Mpsox (29 Jul 2009)

TarfHead said:


> Those that come from Cork, and those that wish they'd stay there  !
> 
> Maybe NAMA could flog them a site for a ground of their own  ?


 
You're just in denial !!!

Heard on the radio this morning that under the previous owners, players were getting paid €1000 for scoring a goal. No wonder they're gone bust, no LOI club can afford that on top of basic wages


----------



## Lex Foutish (29 Jul 2009)

I've been a City fan since they were founded and went to most of their home games up to about 5 or 6 years ago, when it became difficult for me to get to matches.

Csirl and Graham are right about running a club properly in a business like fashion. There's no hiding place from the tax man.

What saddens me most of all about the whole unfortunate affair though, is the way that this thread has been hijacked by Bren1916, Csirl and Tarfhead to have a go at our wonderful, independent Republic and its noble citizens!

Next time ye're coming to town, Mpsox and myself will be waiting for ye, with hurleys, at the tunnel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We might even welcome ye with a Mayfield hand shake!


----------



## bren1916 (29 Jul 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> I've been a City fan since they were founded and went to most of their home games up to about 5 or 6 years ago,
> 
> *You have my sympathy there Lex...*
> 
> ...


----------



## Lex Foutish (29 Jul 2009)

A cheap shot, Bren, and one that would be most hurtful, were it not for the fact that our hurlers felt that, in harsh economic times, our noble citizens should not be put to the expense of following 2 county teams in the final stages of the All Ireland series this year.

Now, when did you say you were coming to Cork..............?


----------



## Yorrick (29 Jul 2009)

Coincidentally I was in Cork City yesterday afternoon and heard part of the Joe Duffy show before parking in Grand Parade.
For the next two hours as I walked around I didn't see one Cork City jersey being worn by anyone.
The usual suspects, Man Utd Liverpool, Celtic, Bayern Munich, Sunderland ( no Ipswich yet) , Munster Rugby, Cork GAA but not one Cork City garment.

What does this say ??


----------



## Deiseblue (29 Jul 2009)

In light of the fact that so many cork teams have gone to the wall ;
Evergreen , Fordsons , Cork Hibs , Cork Celtic and Cork Alberts could I suggest that any new club be called Cork " Insert appropriate Title      here " Football Club - it would save a fortune on stationary , jerseys etc and perhaps a club crest of rodents leaping from a sinking ship ?


----------



## TarfHead (29 Jul 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> .. Tarfhead .. have a go at our wonderful, independent Republic and its noble citizens!


 
I wish ye would secede from the other 25 counties and go it alone. Ye're already detached from reality  !


----------



## The_Banker (29 Jul 2009)

As a big time supporter of CCFC I am gutted at the latest out come of the winding up order for the club. Don’t get me wrong, Justice Leffoy was more than patient with the chairman of CCFC with regard to paying taxes and even if all tax monies were paid on Friday by some miracle there are other creditors waiting in the wings.
Caterers
Programme publishers
Staff/players
Kit suppliers
Hotels
FAI
MFA
Ex staff unfairly dismissed who have won awards

The list is endless.

Someone made the point in an earlier post that CCFC don’t own the Turners Cross ground so they pay rent which is a further cost. To be honest it is just as well that CCFC doesn’t own Turners Cross because if they did it would be a housing estate by now. Since our current chairman was appointed there has been no rent paid to the MFA for Turners Cross and the MFA have been remarkably lenient.

Our problems began in 2005 just after we won the League. Our then chairman (and probably our best) Brian Lennox sold the club to an investment trust (Arkaga) as he had brought the club so far and needed someone to bring it further. Arkaga took over and we went from a club that financially struggled (but kept head above water due to budgeting) to one that seemed to have won the Lotto.
Arkaga were owned by a wealthy individual who assumed that with an All-Ireland League in the offing he could make a killing. He spent like there was no tomorrow.
When the FAI and IFA stated that there was no chance of an All-Ireland league Arkaga immediately turned off the tap. Overnight the club had no money and Arkaga walked away and the club entered Examinership.

Enter Tom Coughlan who purchased the club out of Examinership (rumoured for €1) and assumed the liabilities. CCFC have two major assets which he promised to use to pay revenue outstanding monies. He sold the sell on clause for Kevin Doyle for €200k and also had £150,000 for winning the Setanta cup. It was assumed that this money would be used to pay off revenue. It wasn’t. Since the present incumbent took over last October it seem no bills have been paid what so ever (not just Revenue). 

He was in front of the High Court previously and presented Revenue with cheques which subsequently bounced and he is now complaining that Revenue are being unreasonable. He is threatening to appeal the liquidation to The Supreme Court but on what grounds????? That soccer clubs don’t have to pay tax???


----------



## Mpsox (29 Jul 2009)

TarfHead said:


> I wish ye would secede from the other 25 counties and go it alone. Ye're already detached from reality  !


 
who's to say we aren't working on it

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/

to be honest, we only hang around to try and prevent all the jackeens and biffos making an even worse haims of things,.


----------



## csirl (29 Jul 2009)

> Maybe NAMA could flog them a site for a ground of their own  ?


 
Which do they prefer, Wembley or Craven Cottage? Would Cork fans be willing to travel to London to watch home games?


----------



## csirl (29 Jul 2009)

Seriously, says in some of the papers today that Cork City paid their players outstanding wages NET OF TAX and didnt think that this created any more liability to the taxman to take them out of examinership. This is madness. 

LOI needs to be cleaned up. It is seriously lacking in managerial and financial expertise. A lot of the clubs seem to come from the duck and dive dell boy school of running a business. Its a big shame, because it could be a great league if it was better run.


----------



## The_Banker (29 Jul 2009)

csirl said:


> Which do they prefer, Wembley or Craven Cottage? Would Cork fans be willing to travel to London to watch home games?


 

Cork fans (like the majority of Irish fans) have no problem heading to Anfield, Old Trafford or The Emerit Stadium. 
Lots of crocodile tears being shed at the minute here in Cork. The truth of the matter is the Irish people will not support Irish soccer.


----------



## The_Banker (29 Jul 2009)

csirl said:


> Seriously, says in some of the papers today that Cork City paid their players outstanding wages NET OF TAX and didnt think that this created any more liability to the taxman to take them out of examinership. This is madness.
> 
> LOI needs to be cleaned up. It is seriously lacking in managerial and financial expertise. A lot of the clubs seem to come from the duck and dive dell boy school of running a business. Its a big shame, because it could be a great league if it was better run.


 
Players historically are paid net and then the club pays the PAYE and PRSI except in CCFCs case the chairman didn't pay it. He has paid nothing since he took over.
However, for each club to receive a licence to operate from the FAI they need to be tax compliant and have there books in order.
The FAI are the regulaters in the same way that the Financial Regulator looked after the banks. The FAI were asleep on the job. 

Other clubs are rumoured to be in the same position with cases pending with Revenue.


----------



## Graham_07 (29 Jul 2009)

The_Banker said:


> The FAI are the regulaters in the same way that the Financial Regulator looked after the banks. The FAI were asleep on the job.


 
They must have learned how to do that from the Fin.Regulator


----------



## The_Banker (30 Jul 2009)

Big rumours down here in Cork that we could have a big investor on board for tomorrow mornings meeting with Revenue before the appearance before Justice Laffoy. 
Fingers crossed!!


----------



## csirl (31 Jul 2009)

The_Banker said:


> Big rumours down here in Cork that we could have a big investor on board for tomorrow mornings meeting with Revenue before the appearance before Justice Laffoy.
> Fingers crossed!!


 
Is this a genuine investor or a stalling tactic i.e. telling the Judge/Revenue that the club is "sale agreed" to someone with the cash to pay the tax bill, but the buyer pulls out at some stage in the future before contracts are signed, but this buys time for the club management. Today's the last day of legal term, so if Cork City get the hearing delayed, it wont happen until October at the earliest.


----------



## The_Banker (31 Jul 2009)

csirl said:


> Is this a genuine investor or a stalling tactic i.e. telling the Judge/Revenue that the club is "sale agreed" to someone with the cash to pay the tax bill, but the buyer pulls out at some stage in the future before contracts are signed, but this buys time for the club management. Today's the last day of legal term, so if Cork City get the hearing delayed, it wont happen until October at the earliest.


 

Yes, that point was discussed amoung supporters but the new company that have come on board (Quintas Wealth Management) have issued a statement saying they are on board and are taking over the day to day running of the club. 
The perception in Cork is that Revenue have there claws out for our chairman due to past indiscretions with revenue (and rightly so) and they therefore being harsh on him and as I said, rightly so. No supporter in Cork of the club have anytime for his non payment tactics.
However, it now seems that this company have presented Revenue with a business plan and it is up to Revenue whether this proceed with the winding up order or not. If Revenue tell Justice Leffoy that they are happy, we survive. If Revenue are unhappy then we are gone. The judges hands are tied really and in the past she has been more than lienient with a chairman who only paid the whole process lip service.
I am not sure if all this is enough to satisfy Revenue but it is a hope that we have today that we didn't have yesterday. However, it may still be too little to late.


----------



## The_Banker (31 Jul 2009)

Okay,
I have just heard that the evidence has been presented and the judge has sent the Revenue lawyers away to make a verdict on whether they are happy or not and to report back to her by 1:00 PM.


----------



## Mpsox (31 Jul 2009)

seemingly they've raised half the money and have a friendly match lined up with Celtic in October which the FAI have said they'll take responsibility for and will pay the funds from that game direct to the revenue


----------



## The_Banker (31 Jul 2009)

Mpsox said:


> seemingly they've raised half the money and have a friendly match lined up with Celtic in October which the FAI have said they'll take responsibility for and will pay the funds from that game direct to the revenue


 

Its about time the FAI got involved..


----------



## The_Banker (31 Jul 2009)

Cork supporters have a guy in the court room who is updating the supporters website from his Ipod (surely illegal ;-) ) but the supporters website has crashed..


----------



## The_Banker (31 Jul 2009)

Further update... Revenue appear to be playing hardball and not accepting the offer.

Cork have €220k in court (owe €439K) and have said they will pay the remainder over 4 months with the Celtic game being run by the FAI in 2 weeks to ensure the Revenue get the (estimate) €150k from that game.
Revenue won't agree and the judge has adjourned until 4:00PM to see if CCFC can raise the further cash. In fairness Justice Leffoy is bending over backwards for the club but I am not confident that they will have the money by 4PM.


----------



## Deiseblue (31 Jul 2009)

According to RTE news the High Court has issued an order winding up Cork City.
The judge has granted an extension until 4 to see if CCFC can bring an appeal to the Supreme Court !


----------



## The_Banker (31 Jul 2009)

I am getting updates by the minute... each contradictory.

If they are granted the appeal to the Supreme Court then they will have bought time to raise the remainder of the money. With the new company on board the money will be raised. With the former chairmen it wouldn't as the people of Cork saw any money given with him in charge as money down a bottomless black hole.


----------



## csirl (31 Jul 2009)

I assume that one way or another, a team representing Cork will play in the LOI - probably with new holding company or owner or whatever solution they find - this incarnation is not the first to play as "Cork City" and probably wont be the last.

What has always puzzled me is why do they play in green and white? Surely it would make more sense to play in the local colours - red. Gives the team more of a local identity.

I'm guessing that the green and white is something to do with one of the previous LOI representatives being Cork Hibernians? But just because a team in the city played in green and white for the relatively short time it was in existance, it doesnt mean that every team from that point on must play in these colours?


----------



## The_Banker (31 Jul 2009)

csirl said:


> I assume that one way or another, a team representing Cork will play in the LOI - probably with new holding company or owner or whatever solution they find - this incarnation is not the first to play as "Cork City" and probably wont be the last.
> 
> *What has always puzzled me is why do they play in green and white? Surely it would make more sense to play in the local colours - red. Gives the team more of a local identity.*
> 
> *I'm guessing that the green and white is something to do with one of the previous LOI representatives being Cork Hibernians? But just because a team in the city played in green and white for the relatively short time it was in existance, it doesnt mean that every team from that point on must play in these colours*?


 
There was an experiment in the early 90s to change the club colours to Red & White. It did not take off and after 3 seasons we reverted back to green and white. All the fans want green and white, that is our identity. 

I can't get onto the cork supporters website for the latest update as it has crashed. It looks like we have a short term reprieve due to the appeal to the Supreme Court. The appeal will obviously fail but it will give the club more time to gather cash. 
However, the Gods are being unkind. We would be due our biggest gate of the season tonight and a wad of money but there has been biblical rain here in Cork today and the match could be called off due to flooding. Traffic in Cork is at a standstill due to flooding on roads.


----------



## The_Banker (31 Jul 2009)

NEWS FLASH
Cork City have reached an agreement with Revenue. We are saved... Heres to another 25 years!!!!!!!!

Now lets hope the people running the club pay tax from now on! I can't go throught another week like this again.


----------



## RMCF (1 Aug 2009)

Well you have to find plenty of money for next Wed/Thur, but listening to your chairman it sounds like he is very confident.

I really hope you do survive. I am a season ticket holder in the League of Ireland and it would not be the same without Cork City. The league is struggling to attract paying spectators these days but its tough times and things will get better. All teams are struggling but hopefully we won't have any more failures this season.

Good luck for next weeks Court appearance.


----------



## The_Banker (2 Aug 2009)

Good article in todays Sunday Independent. INM don't give much coverage to the LOI unless its bad news but journalist Sean Ryan is a big LOI fan and has written some pretty good books on soccer in Ireland.
The article below hits the nail on the head as to why CCFC finds itself in the financial predictament its in....

Last October, Tom Coughlan rode into Cork City's history as a white knight, a saviour, a messiah, rescuing the club from oblivion on the eve of its silver jubilee. Almost a year on, and Coughlan was seen as a chancer and incompetent, as he built up a trail of debt and destruction and the club spiralled towards extinction again.

On Friday last, after a stay of execution had been granted to the club by the High Court until Wednesday afternoon, a chink of light appeared and Coughlan's redemption beckoned.

It wasn't that he had saved Cork City again - Friday's stay may be only a temporary reprieve - rather it was the mea culpa which he uttered to the waiting media that hints at a turning point in Coughlan's style of management.

"I made a balls of it in the first six months here," he admitted. "We've got to learn from that and get a truly sustainable model."

They say it takes a big man to admit he made a mistake, but Coughlan made plenty of them before Friday - and never held up his hand. Maybe his mea culpa on Friday is only a temporary reprieve in that regard also?

There is certainly plenty of evidence to indicate how much of a "balls" he made of directing Cork City's fortunes up to now. The failure to pay tax liabilities is only the tip of an iceberg that threatens to put a damper on what should have been the silver jubilee celebrations of possibly the most successful League of Ireland club in the past 25 years.

Bent on putting his own mark on the club, Coughlan's regime was marked by a hire-and-fire syndrome, which lacked common sense and also displayed his lack of football nous.

As a result, the club has to find €36,000 to compensate Gareth Farrelly for unfair dismissal, and faces legal action and the possibility of a six-figure sum for the summary dismissal of former manager Alan Mathews.

Further down the chain there are disputes to be settled with former club worker Noelle Feeney, and the owners of the lease of the club shop on Grand Parade, which Coughlan moved to other premises. His actions give every indication of someone who is used to riding roughshod over people and they were compounded by his own admission that football wasn't his number one sport and his unwillingness or inability to take advice from football people.

For instance, had Coughlan consulted the Professional Footballers Association of Ireland (PFAI), he could have saved himself a lot of money. The players' willingness to play without pay to save the club is more akin to the action of a GAA team than a team of professionals, yet Coughlan never tapped into that reservoir of goodwill.

The Cork City he inherited had just come out of examinership, with the Revenue having to settle for less than 10 cent from every euro it was owed. Keeping them onside should have been a priority for the new regime, but they were treated with contempt, in one case being offered cheques that bounced. In addition, Cork City players who had retired were now claiming sporting tax back - on tax, which had not found its way to the Revenue. No wonder Revenue's attitude to the club's owner hardened.

With the biggest support base in the League, Coughlan could have steadied the ship, but instead his ambition got in the way of common sense, and he decided to go for broke and challenge for the title.

The comparison with Drogheda United is telling. The Louth club, given a similar deal by the Revenue when they got into difficulty last year, cut their cloth accordingly and operate with a weekly wage bill of €6,500. Cork's is still €30,000, second only to League champions Bohemians.

Cork's position vis-a-vis Sligo Rovers is also interesting. Because the FAI had issues with the budget which the Westerners presented to the licensing department in February, a transfer embargo was imposed. It left Sligo so short of players that, at times, they only had two substitutes on the bench. However, having stabilised their finances, they were able to make a number of signings during the recent transfer window. Cork's budget presentation was considered in order last February, and the club were able to make seven new signings. Subsequently they went over budget, but the only sanction the FAI could impose was a transfer embargo, which didn't come into force until July.

An FAI source explained that, as the Gareth Farrelly and Alan Mathews cases were legal issues at the time, they were precluded from being considered in relation to the issuing of the licence. Perhaps the Cork City saga will force a re-think in this area by the Association.

Another requirement on licence applicants is a tax clearance certificate or an agreement with the Revenue. In Cork's case, whatever agreement was in place was broken soon after the licence was granted.

The FAI licensing department have been working with Cork and the Revenue since May, when a petition was filed in the High Court to wind up Cork City Investment FC Ltd, the club's holding company.

Having gone out on a limb to retain a club, whose loss to the League would be catastrophic, the FAI will now take more control, starting with the running of the Celtic friendly at Turner's Cross.

If they pay the outstanding debt to the Revenue on Wednesday, the club then have to make regular payments. If, at the end of the season, the deal has come apart, then the FAI can revoke the licence.

In the meantime, there are a lot of issues for a chastened Coughlan to face: players' wages, Gareth Farrelly, etc. It shouldn't take long to find out if his mea culpa has substance - or was just another good soundbite.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/oth...citys-saviour-is-truly-chastened-1849371.html


----------

