# Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years-Muldowney Group



## oldtimer

Would like to hear views on above which seems very attractive. Ad in Sunday Indo 3rd '' we are offering 15% gross return on investment per annum over a 3 year term. Thats a total of 45% gross over 3 years. And yes, its fully guaranteed. The minimum amount is €25,000 and its completely hands free, we do the investing, you take the money - simple.'' This sounds very attractive. The ad is by Muldowney Property Services. Have looked at their website www.muldowneygroup.com but cannot find any specifics on above. Any views or comments?


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## MugsGame

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Hopefully you know this is too good to be true, but want to work out what the catch is?

Is the product named in the ad? Who is the provider regulated by? Is the capital guaranteed along with the "return"? (I can guarantee you a 100% return this year if you are prepared to accept the "possibility" of a 100% capital loss!). The other thing that might be relevant is the tax treatment of any returns/gains/losses.


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## oldtimer

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Spot on, Mugsgame. Too good to be true - I want to know where is the catch. I have given the ad as it appeared, all positive, as it says ''you take the money - simple.'' No mention of a fund etc or who regulates it. Just other points mentioned in the ad '' Ideal for SSIA funds. High return-safe-secure.''  As you said, I want to know where is the catch?


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## MugsGame

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



> No mention of a fund etc or who regulates it.



I could be wrong, but I think its illegal to advertise investments in this way. Are you sure there was no small print giving regulatory information?


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## ClubMan

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Maybe somebody could scan and post the ad or summarise the text that it contained?


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## F. Kruger

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Saw the add and thought it was very similar to the Agusta product discussed on these pages before. They claimed an IIR of 14.7% pa.

It has to be a Syndicate Property Fund. 

I don't think it is illegal to advertise the product this way, as these funds are not regulated.


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## oldtimer

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

It is a coloured ad on page 14. Sorry not able to scan it.
(1) Heading is Muldowney Property Services alongside photo of multi story building
(2) Next is big print ''FINALLY AN INVESTMENT THAT GUARANTEES TOU WON'T LOSE'' (All in blue colour)
(3) Next line '' 15% ROI PER ANNUM GUARANTEED'' (All in red colour)
(4) Then in box in black print with green background - '' Have you considered investing in property but don't want the hassle of buying? They why not invest in our unique Property Fund? We are offering 15%* gross return on investment per annum over a 3 year term. Thats a total of 45%* gross over 3 years. And yes, its fully guaranteed. The minimum amount is €25,000 and its completely hands free, we do the investing, you take the money-simple.''

That is the full advertisement as on paper. Caught my eye immediately as it appears to be too good to be true. Tried website but could find no detail there. Am tempted to ring phone number but would like to hear views on AAM first.
(5) In small print ''*interest subject to deduction of tax at the standard prevailing rate (currently 20%)''
(6) Next line ''IDEAL FOR SSIA FUNDS'' (in big blue print)
(7) Next line ''HIGH RETURN-SAFE-SECURE
(8) Bottom lines '' Mon-Fri 9am-5pm 1890 350 450
www.muldowneygroup.com
     Head Office; 166 Lower Rathmines Road. Dublin 6.''


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Call them and ask for a detailed prospectus.


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## gonk

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

If you think about it logically, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

If they have devised a scheme that can produce a guaranteed 15% annual return, why are they raising funds from the public to invest in it? If they can show the return is certain, any bank would be happy to lend at 5% or 6%, leaving them with a handy 9% margin.

If you do ring them, ask them why they're not doing this instead of unnecessarily handing over money to individual investors.


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## woods

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



gonk said:


> If you think about it logically, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
> 
> If they have devised a scheme that can produce a guaranteed 15% annual return, why are they raising funds from the public to invest in it? If they can show the return is certain, any bank would be happy to lend at 5% or 6%, leaving them with a handy 9% margin.
> 
> If you do ring them, ask them why they're not doing this instead of unnecessarily handing over money to individual investors.


Because they are going to use the money that they collect from the investors as leaverage and for every 100K they get from you they will get a further 300K from the bank at the 5% which will mean that the average that they will pay out will be 7.5% even if they give you 15%.


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## MugsGame

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

That makes sense in terms of how the deal could be structured, but gonk's argument still holds. The bank aren't willing to put up all the money for the deal -- why? The investor must be taking more risk than the 'guarantee' suggests.


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## gonk

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

What I'm simply asking is why, if they can demonstrate a 100% cast-iron guarantee of 15% annual returns, with adequate security for the capital, any bank wouldn't give them all the money they want without any need to raise money from the public? They'd surely profit more by doing this. 

On the other hand, if they can't demonstrate these things, the claims in the advertisement would be somewhat dubious, to say the least.


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## Marianne

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

This illustrates a big gap in the Consumer Protection Code.  As F. Kruger states above, the so-called "guaranteed investment" is presumably some property transaction, which is not regulated by the Financial Regulator.  

The Consumer Protection Code [broken link removed] devotes an entire chapter (7) to advertising and the various warnings and caveats that must be included in an advertisement for an investment product.  Yet if it's a property deal, which may well involve substantial investments from consumers, there are no rules.  

To rub salt in it, from their website, Muldowney Group do offer investment services and mortgage services that are regulated by the Financial Regulator.  So if they are advising their clients to invest in a Managed Property Fund (regulated), they must go through the whole process of fact-finding, Terms of Business, disclosure of commission, abide by advertising rules etc.  But if they advise a client to invest in a direct property investment (unregulated), none of this applies.

To be clear - I am not for a moment suggesting any impropriety on the part of the Muldowney Group - if the advert relates to an unregulated investment type, they are acting completely within the rules.


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## z108

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

This isnt 15% apr ? What APR is it ?
If I invest 25,000 euro am I guaranteed back 36250 (145%)  after 3 years into my hand and is that before or after tax ?
Whats the real guaranteeed return into my hand after tax after 3 years?


Like a lot of guarantees, unless a third party holds the money,  the strength of the guarantee is only as strong as the strength of the  Muldowney Group.


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## ClubMan

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

45% overall return over three years is c. 13% _CAR _(gross) according to this calculator.


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## oldtimer

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Rang Muldowney Property Services to-day - yep - was told I will get 45% interest on my investment in three years, no problem. Comparison was made with ''Augusta Fund'' as mentioned by F. Kruger above (of which I know nothing about). I suggested I would send €25,000 to-day but was told  somebody would talk me through it  ''we have a few people on the road.'' When I said the ad stated it was 'simple and guaranteed'' I was told if I wish to put the money in the post, fine. Comment made the investment was almost full. Prospectus in post to me - should have it to-morrow or Friday. If I was living in Dublin would have called for it. Cannot wait to get my hands on it.


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## ClubMan

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

These guys sound good - I think I'll give them my life savings too!


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## gonk

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



oldtimer said:


> Comparison was made with ''Augusta Fund'' as mentioned by F. Kruger above (of which I know nothing about).


 
I should point out in fairness to Augusta (with whom I have an investment) that while their advertisements and prospectuses contain "projected" returns, they make no claims that these are guaranteed. Their prospectuses also give detailed information on the assumptions used to make the projections, as well as the main investment risks.


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## gonk

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



Marianne said:


> To rub salt in it, from their website, Muldowney Group do offer investment services and mortgage services that are regulated by the Financial Regulator. So if they are advising their clients to invest in a Managed Property Fund (regulated), they must go through the whole process of fact-finding, Terms of Business, disclosure of commission, abide by advertising rules etc. But if they advise a client to invest in a direct property investment (unregulated), none of this applies.


 
As this article from the _Business Post_ last February explains, many property-based funds which are promoted by regulated institutions, such as life assurance companies, are effectively not covered by the Regulator either:

[broken link removed]

From the article:

"Colm Fagan, President of the Society of Actuaries, warned for the second time of the dangers of investing in unregulated property investments and suggested that such schemes be brought within the remit of the Financial Regulator.

In particular, he warned that it can be difficult for the consumer to spot that some investments are unregulated, given that they may be promoted by entities such as banks, life assurance companies or financial advisers that are regulated in respect of other activities. In other cases, he warned, the unregulated property fund may be ‘‘wrapped’’ inside a regulated product such as a life assurance policy or a pension.

‘‘While both the ‘wrapper’ and promoter may be regulated, the underlying property investment is often held in an unregulated vehicle such as exempt-unit trusts, shares in private companies or co-ownership arrangements. This can lead to risks that most investors are unaware of, including potential problems in realising the investment, transparency on costs and valuations,’’ Fagan said."


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## oldtimer

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Quote by Clubman ''these guys sound good - I think I'll give them my life savings too.''  Are you serious?


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## room305

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



gonk said:


> I should point out in fairness to Augusta (with whom I have an investment) that while their advertisements and prospectuses contain "projected" returns, they make no claims that these are guaranteed. Their prospectuses also give detailed information on the assumptions used to make the projections, as well as the main investment risks.



I don't have an investment with Augusta but they are well respected. It is unfair that they are getting tarnished by what looks like some fairly questionable claims on the part of Muldowney.


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## ClubMan

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



oldtimer said:


> Quote by Clubman ''these guys sound good - I think I'll give them my life savings too.''  Are you serious?


No - sarcastic.


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## Brendan Burgess

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Even their maths is wrong:

"We are offering 15% per annum over three years.

That's a total of 45% gross..."

15% per annum is 52% over three years. 

I will refer their ad and website to the Financial Regulator. 

Brendan


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## ClubMan

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



Brendan said:


> Even their maths is wrong:
> 
> "We are offering 15% per annum over three years.
> 
> That's a total of 45% gross..."
> 
> 15% per annum is 52% over three years.


Maybe the omission of the word "compounded" is deliberate and without it it's not incorrect to say that 15% p.a. is 45% gross?


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## Brendan Burgess

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

I reckon that they simply don't understand the difference. 

Maybe someone else would like to make a complaint to the ASAI and someone else again to the National Consumer Agency? 

Brendan


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## gonk

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



Brendan said:


> I reckon that they simply don't understand the difference.
> 
> Maybe someone else would like to make a complaint to the ASAI and someone else again to the National Consumer Agency?
> 
> Brendan


 
But what would the basis of the complaint be? Oldtimer says he spoke to their office and they stand over the claims made in the ad. I know they sound unlikely, and would be surprised if they are borne out in reality, but what could you say in your complaint?


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## Brendan Burgess

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

I think a misleading as is against the code. They are offering a guarantee of 15%. They are not highlighting or noting any terms and conditions. 

It might not succeed, but it's well worth trying. I think that they will have to justify their claims. 

I also think that the National Consumer Agency has much stronger powers under European law. 

Brendan


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

I have the prospectus. I know nothing about these people but have seen their ads for sometime in various sunday papers. I have no idea who they are . It looks , however , a very good deal, and well worth investigating. I have had gaurantees before and when they dont come through all you can do is take them to court and hope to get your money back. As regards the calculations they are saying that a 100,000 investment will gross to 145000 in 3 years which is near enough 15% for me. however i want to know about these people , who regulates them, how reputable they are, where can i find out about them etc.  In reality they will probably earn a lot more than 15% of my money (if I give it to them) , as they say they will invest in emerging markets as 1st tier investors and wait for the 2nd tier investors to buy off plans etc. What do you think? (This is my first post)


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## ClubMan

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> What do you think?


Unless they can explain how they can guarantee 45% over three years then I for one remain skeptical.


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## z108

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> as they say they will invest in emerging markets as 1st tier investors and wait for the 2nd tier investors to buy off plans etc. What do you think? (This is my first post)



Pyramid scheme ?


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## woods

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> they say they will invest in emerging markets as 1st tier investors and wait for the 2nd tier investors to buy off plans etc. What do you think? (This is my first post)


This works well in a rising market but have they missed the boat.


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

the explanation of how they get their 45% is simple enough and not totally outrageous. my own company bought a site for x, we knew what could be put on it, how much the project was going to cost, and what we could sell each unit for, therefore giving us projected returns. They are doing this in the same way in markets that are developing eg russia , india. And i beleive this is not an unreal profit prediction. Maybe we might miss the boat if we don't invest .


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## RainyDay

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> the explanation of how they get their 45% is simple enough and not totally outrageous. my own company bought a site for x, we knew what could be put on it, how much the project was going to cost, and what we could sell each unit for, therefore giving us projected returns. They are doing this in the same way in markets that are developing eg russia , india. And i beleive this is not an unreal profit prediction. Maybe we might miss the boat if we don't invest .


How did you know what you could sell each unit for? Crystal ball?

Your calculation gave you a projected return. This company are claiming a guaranteed return - big difference.


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## ClubMan

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> I have the prospectus. I know nothing about these people but have seen their ads for sometime in various sunday papers. I have no idea who they are . It looks , however , a very good deal, and well worth investigating. I have had gaurantees before and when they dont come through all you can do is take them to court and hope to get your money back. As regards the calculations they are saying that a 100,000 investment will gross to 145000 in 3 years which is near enough 15% for me. however i want to know about these people , who regulates them, how reputable they are, where can i find out about them etc.  In reality they will probably earn a lot more than 15% of my money (if I give it to them) , as they say they will invest in emerging markets as 1st tier investors and wait for the 2nd tier investors to buy off plans etc. What do you think? (This is my first post)





kgbm said:


> the explanation of how they get their 45% is simple enough and not totally outrageous. my own company bought a site for x, we knew what could be put on it, how much the project was going to cost, and what we could sell each unit for, therefore giving us projected returns. They are doing this in the same way in markets that are developing eg russia , india. And i beleive this is not an unreal profit prediction. Maybe we might miss the boat if we don't invest .


If you understand how it all works then why were you asking for info above? No offence but your posts strike me as suspicious. Do you have some vested interest here?


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Clubman: I was waiting for that. No I don't. But I am trying to remain positive about it. everything about the deal is negative so far. I am just trying to point out that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that it can work. And according to them the fund is almost full so someone out there must have committed themselves thus far. regarding the crystal ball: you know what your house is worth don't you? same difference. As long as you can sell the units..............


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## MugsGame

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



> you know what your house is worth don't you? same difference.



Nobody is offering me a guarantee what my house is worth. Muldowney are offering a 'guaranteed' return.


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## LDFerguson

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

(1) If the 45% is a projection or conditional on property prices or other asset values going a certain way, the "guaranteed" claim is misleading.  

(2) If it's a guarantee, who's guaranteeing it?

(3) If they can guarantee 45% after three years, why would they be offering it to the public?  If I had access to an investment that would genuinely guarantee a return of 45% after three years, I'd mortgage everything I own to raise cash, then I'd get my family and friends to do likewise.  If it's an asset-backed deal we'd then get various banks to finance further investment, secured on the assets.  We'd borrow on a 3-year fixed rate of 4.69% on an interest-only basis.  After 3 years the cost of funds would be under 15%.  We'd get our 45% return and would be laughing.  

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.


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## gonk

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



LDFerguson said:


> If they can guarantee 45% after three years, why would they be offering it to the public? If I had access to an investment that would genuinely guarantee a return of 45% after three years, I'd mortgage everything I own to raise cash, then I'd get my family and friends to do likewise.


 
Me too! This is the single aspect of the advertisement that makes least sense to me. If the return on offer is genuinely certain, it would make absolutely no sense to be advertising to the public to raise funds. It would be like Paddy Power advertising for punters to bet on a one horse race.


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

I agree the gaurantee claim is misleading, it is conditional on how the market performs etc. If it doesn't perform then you take your slip of paper and them to court and hope they don't skip the country etc. They are saying that the fund is full ie closed and you and your friends will not be able to invest anything  in it. all i really wanted to know is who regulates these people and have you any comeback at all? BCP asset management have good products , dont gaurantee any return but at least they have a bank to ensure you get your money back if the investment fails. i am sure there are other companies with similar products etc.


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

to Gonk: How do you get funds without some sort of advertising?


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## MugsGame

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



> I agree the gaurantee claim is misleading, it is conditional on how the market performs etc.


kgbm, since you have the prospectus, can you quote the exact wording surrounding the guarantee? Is there a get out clause or other restriction in the small print?


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

mugsgame: It is a 2 page document entitled "deed  of undertaking". it describes the parties in the agreement,then the amount to be invested, and the general terms which are basically that the money shall be invested in local and international property with professional managers overseeing the investment, the term, the 15% gaurantee, description of a quaterly dividend paid into the fund,(which I presume builds up to the 15%) then a section saying that a full description of the properties invested in will be available within the first 3 months of investing, the tax implications. a get out clause is next for each party which is available every 12 months, a declaration that both parties agree that the document is law abiding and then a section for signatures.


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## gonk

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> to Gonk: How do you get funds without some sort of advertising?


 
You're missing the point. If Muldowney's can genuinely guarantee a  capital secure 45% return over 3 years, there would be absolutely no need to raise money from the public in the first place. They could get all the money they wanted from the banks and retain all the profits for themselves.

If, on the other hand, either the 45% return or the security of capital is not 100% certain, the advertisement is misleading.


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

True, Gonk. One could argue that they will get considerable profits anyway and are pushing themselves as an exceptional investment company, That however is perhaps being naive. i just dont know. have you had any experience or knowledge BCP asset management?


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Mugsgame I missed the point of your post,Quote" the company gaurantees a dividend of 15% per annum on funds invested over the entire term of the investment. For example , investors will receive E45000 on an investment of E100000 over the 36 month term" end quote


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## MugsGame

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Thanks kgbm for the feedback. 

Do they say anywhere that your original investment is also guaranteed?



> it describes the parties in the agreement



Does this mean the prospectus is personalised to each investor?


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Mugsgame: no it doesn't, the example there fore is flawed and the wording is such that it does not gaurantee your money back in the deed of undertaking. This is a separate document to the "prospectus" which does "say" you will get your money back. They are regarding the deed of undetaking as the legal end of the deal. And the prospectus is not personalised, the deed of under taking obviously has to be.


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

So they entice you with an (apparently) misleading advertisement and prospectus?

If the undertaking is the only legally binding document, then I would imagine (not being a solicitor) that this is all that really matters.

So taking them to Court if a 45% return doesn't materialise is probably not going to go in the investor's favour if the legally binding agreement contains enough in the way of terms and conditions.

I would also be interested what fees and charges (if any) apply, especially in the case of early encashment, even more so since the ‘guaranteed return’ is ‘gross’.
What is the tax situation with unregulated property funds? Are they subject to 23%? Or are they taxed at the individual’s marginal rate?

In short, given the fact that:

(a) there is a paucity of information in the public domain; 

(b)the contents of the prospectus are confidential; 

(c)there appear to be serious conflicts in the information contained in the advertisements/prospectus and the legally binding agreement;

(d)this is an unregulated product

I would urge anyone considering this product to take independent professional advice (which could encompass investment, taxation and legal aspects).

_Caveat emptor_.


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

ccovich: THE tax on the  45% is 20% and is stopped at source , i am not sure about the fees .


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



			
				kgbm said:
			
		

> THE tax on the  45% is 20% and is stopped at source



20% stopped at source-are such funds subject to CGT?



			
				kgbm said:
			
		

> i am not sure about the fees



So 45% gross could very well be 5% net?  Are fees and charges not mentioned anywhere?


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## RainyDay

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> ccovich: THE tax on the  45% is 20% and is stopped at source .


Says who? Seriously, who has confirmed that CGT applies and not (for example) income tax? Have they got verifiable opinion from a qualified tax expert on this?


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## Bronte

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

This offer is too good to be true - otherwise I'd be off now to remortgage the house.

I don't know about the financial regulations but based on the confusion here on AAM with experienced investors there has to be something misleading about the ad which should be reported to the relevant authorities and so prevent people getting duped.

Moderator note
Question on compunding moved to this thread-please keep this one on topic, i.e. the product being offered.


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## oldtimer

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

I will admit when I read the ad I was very impressed but this thread has really asked some very interesting questions. I am amazed (1) nobody has responded stating any past experience, good or bad. The website states ''over the years our clients have benefitted from an excellent service delivered by a combined team of professionals with several years experience.'' Any of these clients read AAM? (2) With over 2,500 hits on this thread surely somebody from the Company has seen it. Nobody has responded to any of the questions which are quite legimitate. Who wants to invest a minimum of €25,000 without all details spelt out? Guaranteed 45% over 3 years is a massive statement to make nowadays.


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## ClubMan

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> Clubman: I was waiting for that. No I don't. But I am trying to remain positive about it. everything about the deal is negative so far. I am just trying to point out that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that it can work. And according to them the fund is almost full so someone out there must have committed themselves thus far.


Another possible explanation might be that this claim (that the investment is almost fully subscribed) is not actually true but is part of a hard/pressure selling technique?


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Oldtimer: Agreed. I originally posted to look for information. I have had plenty of advice but no one seems to have dealt with them. If no one has, can anyone advise where to check these people out? Is what they are advertising legal ?


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## KalEl

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

I know this individual personally and have made him aware of the thread.
Beyond that it's not appropriate for me to comment on the merits of this offer.


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## RS2K

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

15% p.a. "Guaranteed". Anyone would be a complete mug not to have a large slice of that


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

RS2K: Are you going for it then?


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> They will email everything to you . let us know


 
But aren't those details confidential?


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

As confidential as RS2K?


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

What's your point?  RS2K has nothing to do with my question.


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## kgbm

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Who were you replying to ? To clarify the tax position 23% of the profits are returned to the revenue by muldowneys.


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



kgbm said:


> Who were you replying to ? To clarify the tax position 23% of the profits are returned to the revenue by muldowneys.


 

I was asking whether or not the details of the prospectus could be discussed in public.


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## oldtimer

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

CCOVICH has asked the burning question ''whether the details of the prospectus could be discussed in public.'' For this very reason I started this thread. The ad impressed me and I hoped a constructive discussion could be started and from it people could find out the details, hear from previous investors, comments from the Company etc. At face value it looked the investment of the year. However there has been a lack of detail on the thread and one wonders (1) Is it the investment of the year? (2) If not, why not?


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



oldtimer said:


> However there has been a lack of detail on the thread and one wonders (1) Is it the investment of the year? (2) If not, why not?


 

1.  No.
2.  There would be much more publicity if 15% p.a. returns were truly 'guaranteed'.


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## z106

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

So did we ever get to the bottom of this one?
Did anyone go for it in the end?


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## gonk

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



oldtimer said:


> I hoped a constructive discussion could be started and from it people could find out the details, hear from previous investors, comments from the Company etc.


 
As noted here, Muldowneys have been aware of this discussion for at least two days:



KalEl said:


> I know this individual personally and have made him aware of the thread.


 
They have not seen fit to respond to any of the questions raised or make any comment at all. Draw your own conclusions.

_As Muldowney's have responded since I made the above comment, I am now happy to withdraw it. I note, however, no specific information has been provided, so I would advise anyone considering this investment to bear in mind the questions raised in this thread and ensure they get satisfactory answers to them from Muldowneys before investing._


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## muldowneys

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

We fully stand over all information stated through both advertising and documentation provided to clients. All questions raised here are valid and have very concise answers which we are happy to provide to any individual. 

We will not be drawn into debate on public forums as we always deal with all business with investors on a confidential one to one basis. We would also consider it bad practice to attempt to canvas for business on a public forum such as this. Our phone lines are always open during business hours and any individual wishing to clarify any issues raised on this thread is always very welcome to do so via phone or email.

-Muldowney Property Services


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## CCOVICH

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*

Stating the facts of the offer here would be most welcome-you would not need to engage in debate if you didn't want to-if someone replies and they are wrong, you are free to 

(a) refute their claim; or
(b) ask the moderators that the post is removed

As an example, check out the posts made by Rabodirect, who have registered and provide factual responses to questions posed by AAM members. Nobody is accusing them of advertising.

Your post above doesn't address any of the issues raised, and doesn't allay any of my scepticism of the 'guaranteed' returns Muldowney are purporting to offer.

Further factual information would be most welcome-the post above is actually more of an attempt to canvass for business than would be the case if you had posted more information on the product in question.

CCOVICH
AAM Moderator


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## RainyDay

*Re: Guaranteed - 45% Gross Over 3 Years*



muldowneys said:


> We will not be drawn into debate on public forums as we always deal with all business with investors on a confidential one to one basis.


It is hard to see how this approach is to the benefit of your potential customers. The answers to general questions like those asked in this thread do not vary from customer to customer. Why would you not want clarity in public forums like this?


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## kgbm

I cannot understand how or why people dont contact muldowneys themselves, get the prospectus, ask questions to their sales people and then come on to the forum and give their opinion , or are they posting because they have nothing else to do? I for one are relatively happy with the information that i have received from them and have yet to make up my mind whether I go for it or not. I was hoping for more constructive discussion on this forum not uninformed scepticism. Yes there are several reasons to be sceptical but several reasons to not to be so. Nobody seems to know anyone who has had any dealings with them etc which was my original question


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## gonk

kgbm said:


> I cannot understand how or why people dont contact muldowneys themselves . . . . I was hoping for more constructive discussion on this forum not uninformed scepticism.


 
Muldowney's themselves have posted on this thread but have declined to answer perfectly reasonable questions as to the certainty of returns in the investment and the security of capital.

That's the reason the "scepticism" is "uninformed" - Muldowney's won't provide the information. As for contacting Muldowney's directly, you're the one who's interested in the investment - why don't you do it yourself, instead of expecting other forum members to do your research for you? You now have the benefit of a reasonable consensus view of what the issues are that need to be addressed by Muldowney's before committing to an investment.


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## CCOVICH

kgbm said:


> I cannot understand how or why people dont contact muldowneys themselves, get the prospectus, ask questions to their sales people and then come on to the forum and give their opinion , or are they posting because they have nothing else to do? I for one are relatively happy with the information that i have received from them and have yet to make up my mind whether I go for it or not. I was hoping for more constructive discussion on this forum not uninformed scepticism. Yes there are several reasons to be sceptical but several reasons to not to be so. Nobody seems to know anyone who has had any dealings with them etc which was my original question



Nonsense.  Muldowney won't answer questions on AAM, or over the phone-the only thing that is relevent is the prospectus/contract/whatever which is confidential and can't be discussed in public.  This is something that is alien to me-what's to hide?

Maybe their are good reasons why no-one on AAM has dealt with Muldowney or knows anyone who has dealt with Muldowney?

If you aren't getting the answers/opinions you want here, and if you don't believe that this discussion has been constructive, I suggest you ask your questions elsewhere.


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## z108

Surely if a newspaper is to have any credibility at all especially in its financial sections,  it should be investigating  why it carries such unregulated adverts 

It's hypocritical to print rants about politicians and conflicts of interest about political donations while at the same time printing without scrutiny something like these adverts. They piously preach responsibility therefore should not point the finger but should regulate their own behaviour and journalism without waiting for the government to legislate. They should do this because it is within their own power to do so and doesnt depend on any canvassing.
If it all erupts into a scandal with many people borrowing and sinking their life savings into unregulated property then I hope the newspapers will have the maturity to highlight their own role in this.

*Maybe the finance editors of the newspapers which support these adverts should be asked why they are not looking into this ?*


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## ClubMan

kgbm said:


> I cannot understand how or why people dont contact muldowneys themselves, get the prospectus, ask questions to their sales people and then come on to the forum and give their opinion , or are they posting because they have nothing else to do? I for one are relatively happy with the information that i have received from them and have yet to make up my mind whether I go for it or not. I was hoping for more constructive discussion on this forum not uninformed scepticism. Yes there are several reasons to be sceptical but several reasons to not to be so. Nobody seems to know anyone who has had any dealings with them etc which was my original question


All 17 posts by _kgbm _to date have been in this thread and are all fairly positive about _Muldowney_. I have drawn my own personal conclusions from this pattern.


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## Brendan Burgess

They have an ad in today's Sunday Business Post offering "assured capital growth". Is "assured" stronger or weaker than "guaranteed"? 

Brendan


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## kgbm

gonk: if you read back through my posts you will see that i have been in touch with muldowneys, have got my prospectus and just prior to my last post have spoken to them face to face. I dont think anyone else has done the same. People are making comments that are uninformed, and they are sceptical about the investment before gettin all the facts 
CCOVICH: I agree they could be more informative on AAM. Maybe they dont see it as a customer puller. But do you see my point about people being uninformed. IF ANYONE wants to see the prospectus I would be happy to email it to them via PM . 
I agree with SIGN: and would love to see such an article appear in the next sunday business post or whatever. And  NO clubman I am not a plant from muldowneys, just trying to get and share information like everyone else.


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## gonk

kgbm said:


> gonk: if you read back through my posts you will see that i have been in touch with muldowneys, have got my prospectus and just prior to my last post have spoken to them face to face.


 
OK then, you have the information - why don't you tell the rest of us what you think of the investment, bearing in mind the questions raised in this thread? This is exactly what you suggested others should do in your post yesterday afternoon.


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## kgbm

From what I know about these people, from what information I have gathered about the product and from what I have been told by their sales manager as we discussed it face to face for about 30 mins., i think it is a good product, they are genuine and at the moment i may go for it, investing the minimum amount.I think it is acheivable,and you may ask why are they not keeping it all for themselves without having to bring in the general public? The answer is i dont know...I was told that the money they will make will be far in excess of 15% and remember they wont have to pay any interest to a loaning institution by getting the money up front so i presume that is why.
  I did however, tongue in cheek, ask him for a post dated cheque  which he found amusing. Does anyone have any reason why I shouldnt? Does it always have to be too good to be true? We invest money with banks, and other financial institutions albeit small amounts without reading small print sometimes(deposits); we are sometimes more willing to invest where our capital  is not  gauranteed (eg shares).


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## gonk

kgbm said:


> Does it always have to be too good to be true?


 
Yes.



kgbm said:


> We invest money with banks, and other financial institutions albeit small amounts without reading small print sometimes(deposits); we are sometimes more willing to invest where our capital is not gauranteed (eg shares).


 
You are not comparing like with like. Once again, if Muldowney's can genuinely guarantee a 45% return over three years with complete capital security, you should not put in the minimum investment. You should re-mortgage your house, your car and your first-born child and put in everything you can. After all you can't lose, can you?


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## z108

Brendan said:


> They have an ad in today's Sunday Business Post offering "assured capital growth". Is "assured" stronger or weaker than "guaranteed"?
> 
> Brendan



My eyes have been opened thanks to this thread.  I can see in todays copy of the Sunday Business Post that Muldowneys arent the only ones making these kinds of promises.


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## CCOVICH

kgbm said:


> CCOVICH: I agree they could be more informative on AAM. Maybe they dont see it as a customer puller.



Well by NOT posting here, and by NOT providing terms and conditions in public, they are doing themselves no favours......





			
				kgbm said:
			
		

> But do you see my point about people being uninformed.



I would welcome any information that would be provided on AAM-I don't trust sales people, so don't intend to call anyone.



			
				kgbm said:
			
		

> IF ANYONE wants to see the prospectus I would be happy to email it to them via PM .



Is this allowed?


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## room305

CCOVICH said:


> Is this allowed?



I think only an employee of Muldowney's would be allowed to pass on such information. Makes you think ...


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## woods

room305 said:


> I think only an employee of Muldowney's would be allowed to pass on such information. Makes you think ...


I am pretty sure that there is no small print saying that the information can not be passed on.
They would probably be delighted if it was. It is free advertising.


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## CCOVICH

woods said:


> I am pretty sure that there is no small print saying that the information can not be passed on.
> They would probably be delighted if it was. It is free advertising.



If this is the case, and you have the prospectus, could you provide a summary of the key points here?


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## ClubMan

kgbm said:


> what I have been told by their sales manager
> 
> ...
> 
> I was told that the money they will make will be far in excess of 15%


So - a salesman told you that the guaranteed returns were in excess of 15% p.a. and that they would pay out 15% to punters and you're impressed to the extent of considering investing? 





> We invest money with banks, and other financial institutions albeit small amounts without reading small print sometimes(deposits)


 Speak for yourself.


> we are sometimes more willing to invest where our capital  is not  gauranteed (eg shares).


 Yes - the risk/reward profile of certain investments usually means no guaranteed capital or investment growth in exchange for the potential to earn better than deposit (for example) returns over the long term. An investment that guarantees capital *and *15% p.a. returns sounds extraordinary and, as ever, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We don't have *any *evidence at all that these returns are achievable and there is no reasonable explanation for how they could be in the current economic climate.


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## Humpback

A very interesting thread. Just finished reading through it now. Found this comment from kgbm a bit weird, given all the talk so far about guarantees etc.



kgbm said:


> I think it is acheivable


 
Why would there be any doubt over a guaranteed return?

Is it my reading (though this doesn't seem to have been focused on, and I might therefore have it wrong) that you're guaranteed your return, but not your initial capital invested?

Also, if there is a €15k dividend per year on a €100k investment, this would be taxed at the top rate (most likely) of income tax rather than any CGT being withheld?


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## ClubMan

Interesting points _rdj_!


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## oldtimer

I received the prospectus and read it. Having read it still wasn't happy (1) like Ccovich, I do not trust salespersons (2) didn't like first page which stated ''the Client agrees not to discuss, copy or distribute this document or its contents to any third party without express authority of Muldowny property Services Ltd and hereby also agrees that contravening this agreement may result in legal proceedings being instigated.'' I asked imyself the question, why cannot I discuss this on AAM? I depend on this forum for financial advice from people who are  knowledgeable, honest and open. It is a fair forum and very well supervised. In my opinion Muldowney have nothing to fear. They have made a massive statement guaranteeing 45% over 3 years - I think they should show openly here how that can be done


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## CCOVICH

So _kgbm_, it would appear that you CANNOT pass the prospectus on to third parties worth permission from Muldowney.


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## z108

oldtimer said:


> ''the Client agrees not to discuss, copy or distribute this document or its contents to any third party without express authority of Muldowny property Services Ltd and hereby also agrees that contravening this agreement may result in legal proceedings being instigated.''




I dont get it. I live in a free country.. apparently. Nobody should be allowed subvert honest journalism and reporting of facts .


But if pedantic points have to be made : You are not a client therefore "the Client agrees" does not apply to you the reader of the prospectus.

How could reading the prospectus engage the reader into a contract of secrecy against his will ?


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## Sarsfield

oldtimer said:


> ''the Client agrees not to discuss, copy or distribute this document or its contents to any third party without express authority of Muldowny property Services Ltd and hereby also agrees that contravening this agreement may result in legal proceedings being instigated.''


 
tbh, that reads like the warning in a Nigerian 419 scam letter.  "For security reasons, do not discuss this offer with anyone".  In other words, "if anyone smarter than you reads this we're snookered".


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## room305

I think the "agrees not to discuss" rider is a bit much. Is this an investment opportunity or inducement into the membership of some shadowy cult?

I find it very difficult to believe that Muldowney could successfully take a civil case against someone for posting a synopsis of their prospectus (it's just a prospectus for god sake - what commerically sensitive information can a prospectus contain?). As sign points out, how can you be a client if you are only seeking information about their investment opportunities?

That said, I would certainly discourage people from doing so just in case.


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## muldowneys

Our position from our last post still stands, however we would like to point out that the confidentiality clause that seems to be causing confusion was reviewed recently and subsequently removed from the documentation concerned.


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## ClubMan

Grand so - I haven't seen the documentation but somebody who has tells me that (a) it does not claim that capital is guaranteed and (b) it does claim that the 15% p.a. dividend is guaranteed and is paid net of 20% (witholding I presume) tax (and presumably a 41% taxpayer is still liable for the additional 21% and possibly also _PRSI _depending on the level of income received).


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## shipibo

Muldowneys,

This thread has received over 5,000 hits, obviously this issue is interesting a lot of people.

Am wondering why ...

MULDOWNEYS STATEMENT: We will not be drawn into debate on public forums as we always deal with all business with investors on a confidential one to one basis.

Interested Parties (maybe customers) have asked some questions, I cannot see what confidentiality would be broken by answering at least some of the questions to allay fears, maybe clear up some misconceptions about your product.

This statement only serves to raise suspicion.

MULDOWNEYS STATEMENT: We would also consider it bad practice to attempt to canvas for business on a public forum such as this. 

Do not believe anybody could accuse you of canvassing, and you are the only people who can clear up outstanding issues that have been raised in this thread.

Hoping you can answer at least some of the questions asked.


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## Humpback

crumdub12 said:


> MULDOWNEYS STATEMENT: We would also consider it bad practice to attempt to canvas for business on a public forum such as this.


 
But paying for advertising in a national newspaper isn't canvassing


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## kgbm

CCOVICH: When do I become a client? all I Have is the prospectus


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## kgbm

all getting very interesting. just to repeat to clubman they stop the tax at 23% (similar to DIRT tax). And i agree that the deed of assignment does not state that the original investment is gauranteed just the 15%


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## RainyDay

kgbm said:


> just to repeat to clubman they stop the tax at 23% (similar to DIRT tax).


WHat they stop or don't stop is pretty irrelevant. What really matters is the Revenue view on the investment. Do they have agreement from Revenue on the tax treatment? Do they have any opinion from a qualified tax advisor on the tax treatment?


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## gonk

kgbm said:


> And i agree that the deed of assignment does not state that the original investment is gauranteed just the 15%


 
Saying the return is guaranteed but the capital isn't is pretty meaningless. I can guarantee you a 100% "return" on your money if I don't have to guarantee to give you your capital back.

Sounds suspiciously like the "guaranteed rentals" offered with many overseas investment properties.


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## ClubMan

kgbm said:


> all getting very interesting. just to repeat to clubman they stop the tax at 23% (similar to DIRT tax). And i agree that the deed of assignment does not state that the original investment is gauranteed just the 15%


I was told that they stop 20% which sounds like a standard rate income tax dividend witholding tax. If so then investors who normally pay 41% on any of their income are still liable for the additional 21% and in some cases may also be liable for _PRSI_. I doubt that the tax witheld is _DIRT _tax or that it is necessarily the full extent of high rate taxpayers' liabilities.


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## ClubMan

KalEl said:


> less CGT or DIRT but not income tax?


I still wonder if it's _DWT_ with a futher 21% liability on high rate taxpayers.


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## KalEl

ClubMan said:


> I still wonder if it's _DWT_ with a futher 21% liability on high rate taxpayers.


 
It's hard to see how it can be just CGT or DIRT...the salient point is that the return is guaranteed but the capital is not. I would suggest a return is only a return when your capital is reasonably safe.


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## samfarrell

Surely if the Capital cannot be guaranteed , then any return guarantee is pointless. If your capital is zero, so will your return be


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## Humpback

samfarrell said:


> Surely if the Capital cannot be guaranteed , then any return guarantee is pointless. If your capital is zero, so will your return be


 
Well, technically, if you invest €100k with me, I can guarantee you a 45% (€45k) return (on your investment). I give you back your €45k and keep the €55k for myself. I don't even need to invest it anywhere to guarantee you that return (on investment) if I don't guarantee original capital guarantee.


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## Brendan Burgess

I think anyone reading this thread will understand the pitfalls of the product.

The mods have had to delete too many posts, so I am closing the thread.

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess

It turned out to be too good to be true...

[broken link removed]


      [broken link removed]
Sunday, May 16, 2010 - By Ian Kehoe

 More than 50 Irish investors are facing  significant losses after the collapse of MPS Global, a Clare-based  investment and development company.

MPS Global , which is headed  by businessman Jal Kalsi, invested millions of euro on behalf of Irish  clients in overseas property deals, including condominium developments  in New York and Chicago.

The company last week went into  liquidation, following a High Court petition by one investor.

About  50 people invested through the company, and most will now lose their  investments, which ranged between €25,000 and €250,000.

The  liquidator, Myles Kirby, a partner in accountancy firm Ferris &  Associates, confirmed that he was investigating the circumstances  surrounding the company’s collapse and its dealings with investors.

It  remains unclear if the company has security over any of its overseas  investments. Kalsi, a former president of Ennis Chamber of Commerce, was  out of the country last week and could not be contacted. He is expected  to return to Ireland in the coming days.
http://adserver.adtech.de/adlink|3....H;loc=300;key=key1+key2+key3+key4;grp=[group]

Originally called Muldowney Property Services, the company changed  its name in December 2007 to MPS Global.

According to the  company’s literature, it claimed to offer a guaranteed 15 per cent  annual return on a minimum investment of €25,000 over three years.

In  2007, the company said it had signed an exclusive property investment  with Dubai company Avanti Holding for $14.7 million-worth of planned  acquisitions.

The company also offered investors the chance to  back a proposed 42-storey condominium development in New York at 75 Wall  Street and another development in Chicago.

The company also  claimed to have joint ventures with partners in the United Arab  Emirates, Bulgaria and the US. According to its most recent accounts,  MPS Global said it had property investments valued at €4.3 million.  Kalsi held 20 per cent of the company’s shares, while the rest of the  shares are owned by Suejeet Kalsi.


[broken link removed]


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## Tentman

Well, Blow me down !!!! Just read right though this thread and yesterdays post from Brendan has confirmed everyones suspicions. As always, Caveat Emptor.


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