# Bord na Mona pay rises and union threats



## Bronte (16 May 2011)

Given the perilious status of the public finances what do people think of the unions in this semi state body threatening strike action if they don't get a pay rise?


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## ajapale (16 May 2011)

Can you provide a link to the case?


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## Sunny (16 May 2011)

http://www.independent.ie/national-...spot-in-row-over-euro5m-pay-rise-2647944.html


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## Deiseblue (16 May 2011)

The Union and the employer appeared before the Labour Court  ( an independent arbitration body ) & presented their cases.

The Labour Court found in favour of the Union & now the Union , correctly in my view , are strongly pursuing their claim.

Can you imagine the furore if a Union rejected a Labour Court recommendation ?


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## Latrade (16 May 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> Can you imagine the furore if a Union rejected a Labour Court recommendation ?


 
just the first three of over 8000 results from a google search for Union rejects Labour Court recommendation.

[broken link removed]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...ejects-lrc-pay-cut-recommendation-474258.html


 [broken link removed]


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## Deiseblue (16 May 2011)

Two of the links above refer to one particular case & the TEEU didn't even ballot on same as they knew their members would roundly reject a putative 7.5 % pay cut .

The Unions  in the last link put the issue to ballot & the members rejected it.

Labour Court recommendations are not binding but in general both sides do abide by same ,  the vast majority of Labour Court recommendations are abided by given the  deserved reputation for impartiality that the LC has.

I went on google myself & found very few instances of parties rejecting LC recommendations , if you key in " Union rejects Labour Court recommendations " the permutations are huge - but to suggest that there are 8000 separate instances of Union rejection of recommendations is pushing it a bit


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## Latrade (16 May 2011)

I never said there was over 8000 instances of it, just that there are a number of cases of where this happens. As it is just a recommendation, it can be a common occurrence that both sides, as they have, reject the findings.

So depending on you view of the Labour Court, either they do occasionally come up with unreasonable recommendations that either party are right to reject or both sides abuse the system and act the maggot occaisonally.


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## Deiseblue (16 May 2011)

Latrade said:


> I never said there was over 8000 instances of it, just that there are a number of cases of where this happens. As it is just a recommendation, it can be a common occurrence that both sides, as they have, reject the findings.
> 
> So depending on you view of the Labour Court, either they do occasionally come up with unreasonable recommendations that either party are right to reject or both sides abuse the system and act the maggot occaisonally.



I would disagree that rejection of LC recommendations is a common occurrence , such rejections are a rarity.

The obvious answer in this case is for both parties to agree to binding arbitration .


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## Latrade (16 May 2011)

Deiseblue said:


> I would disagree that rejection of LC recommendations is a common occurrence , such rejections are a rarity.


 
More common than you'd think. However, all moot as the point was that rejection of LC recommendations is not the sole preserve of employers who wish to trample on all employees. You suggested there'd be an outcry if employees rejected the recommendations, they do reject them and there's about the same level of outcry.


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## Deiseblue (16 May 2011)

Latrade said:


> More common than you'd think. However, all moot as the point was that rejection of LC recommendations is not the sole preserve of employers who wish to trample on all employees. You suggested there'd be an outcry if employees rejected the recommendations, they do reject them and there's about the same level of outcry.



More uncommon than you'd think - a rarity in fact.

Any  proposed rejection by Bord na Mona in this case will not cause any public/media furore , an acceptance of the recommendation I would strongly suggest would meet with an opposite reaction .

I would further suggest that if the LC came down on the side of the employer in this instance & the Union rejected any subsequent recommendation then the media would have a field day.

No wonder the Union are pursuing this case with all means at their disposal.

There is , of course , a simpler solution - let the matter go to binding arbitration.


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## zztop (17 May 2011)

Eh,Bna M are making profits...are they not.Ye all spout about
how great the private sector is(sic).If bank staff etc get pay
rises why not a company thats making profits by rewarding
the staff.


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## Delboy (18 May 2011)

I don't know why any employer ever agrees to go to the LRC or the Labour Court. In my experience of working with semi-states...the unions win every time. There's no point in contesting any claims
Even the most proposterous of claims that I know of, which to any decent and sensible minded person would be laughed at, have been ruled on in the favour or unions or individual workers


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## Complainer (19 May 2011)

Delboy said:


> Even the most proposterous of claims that I know of, which to any decent and sensible minded person would be laughed at, have been ruled on in the favour or unions or individual workers


Given that all the Labour Court judgements are online and many are reported in the media, is there any chance that you'd give us a few examples of these 'most proposterous of claims' that you've come across?


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## DB74 (19 May 2011)

zztop said:


> Eh,Bna M are making profits...are they not.Ye all spout about
> how great the private sector is(sic).If bank staff etc get pay
> rises why not a company thats making profits by rewarding
> the staff.



The banks are defacto semi-state bodies


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## z107 (19 May 2011)

If it's not my money being used to give them the pay rise, then I don't really care what happens.

However, if it is my money, then we should be looking at importing peat or coal and finding alternatives to bord na moaner.


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## ajapale (19 May 2011)

Bord na Mona makes a modest profit each year and pays dividend to the government. It has never got a subsidy or subvention from the government.

If the government as shareholder is considering selling the company it would be better to continue to run the company on a commercial profitable basis prior to sell off in order to maximise shareholder value.

Numbers of employees in BnM have reduced from a peak of well over 5k to over 1,000 today.

Senior management at the company is largely drawn for the private sector.

The company competes in an aggressive market place in the home heating , horticultural products and environmental services markets.

What surprises me is that this commercially run company should run to the government in what is a fairly minor IR dispute dating back a number of years.


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## Delboy (20 May 2011)

Complainer said:


> Given that all the Labour Court judgements are online and many are reported in the media, is there any chance that you'd give us a few examples of these 'most proposterous of claims' that you've come across?



nope, I won't. I referred to Labour Court and LRC. Other decisions are reached through mediators and they won't be published. Not everything makes the media


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## Complainer (20 May 2011)

Delboy said:


> nope, I won't. I referred to Labour Court and LRC. Other decisions are reached through mediators and they won't be published. Not everything makes the media



Now there's a surprise.

Don't got blaming the Labour Court or LRC for anything reached through a mediator.


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## Delboy (20 May 2011)

i'm not going into detail on any cases i've encountered over the years online, no matter how mental the result. I've a family to feed and a mortgage to pay.
It would be to easy to indentify the company/section/individuals for anyone on here with some knowledge of the particular cases

I'll meet you and a few more AAM'ers for a pint some time and shock you...then bore you to death as there so many of them!... with some of the more outlandish cases/results, which as I stated always go the way of the employee/union


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## Complainer (20 May 2011)

Delboy said:


> i'm not going into detail on any cases i've encountered over the years online, no matter how mental the result. I've a family to feed and a mortgage to pay.
> It would be to easy to indentify the company/section/individuals for anyone on here with some knowledge of the particular cases



Anything that you want to blame the Labour Court or the LRC for is in the public domain. Those decisions are made publicly. 

If your gripe is with decisions that are privately negotiated, then lay off the Labour Court and LRC.


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## Deiseblue (21 May 2011)

Delboy said:


> i'm not going into detail on any cases i've encountered over the years online, no matter how mental the result. I've a family to feed and a mortgage to pay.
> It would be to easy to indentify the company/section/individuals for anyone on here with some knowledge of the particular cases
> 
> I'll meet you and a few more AAM'ers for a pint some time and shock you...then bore you to death as there so many of them!... with some of the more outlandish cases/results, which as I stated always go the way of the employee/union



You made particular reference to semi state bodies being the victims of preposterous findings by the Labour Court/LRC.

As such rulings are in the public domain & given the large number of people employed by such semi state bodies it surely must be possible to outline a number of such findings without the slightest possibility of having your identity discovered.


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## dam099 (26 May 2011)

Anyone know if Bord na Mona would be making a profit were the PSO levy subsidising the obligation of the electrical companies to buy peat not in place?

It looks to me like they made 10m in 2010 and 15m in 2009 but in one article last year it was suggested the ESB get subsidies of 70m related to purchasing overpriced peat produced power which would mean that Bord na Mona's profit is not commercially based at all?


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## RoyRover (27 May 2011)

This dinosaur should have been privatised long ago. See how well these union demands are handled in the private sector. 

Not withstanding that - there is another debate altogether about why the State should have commercial involvement in the pillaging of our boglands to create such a polluting form of fuel.


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## Bronte (31 May 2011)

ajapale said:


> Bord na Mona makes a modest profit each year and pays dividend to the government. It has never got a subsidy or subvention from the government.
> 
> .


 
The dividend it pays would be larger if the employees were not given the pay rises.    Who set up Bord na Mona, was there no money from Government involved in this?


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## csirl (31 May 2011)

royrover said:


> not withstanding that - there is another debate altogether about why the state should have commercial involvement in the pillaging of our boglands to create such a polluting form of fuel.


 
+1


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