# Taking a real stand,suggestions



## thedaras (12 Feb 2009)

Ok ,boys and girls ,we know the problems in our country.
we post daily on the issues,we talk we complain,we let off steam.
But what will you and I realisticly do? 
Not what we think should be done,but what will we do?
let us know what you will do to make a change..


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## Ron Burgundy (12 Feb 2009)

A national day of protest is needed, for me its the wastage and cancelation of essential services.

1. cervical cancer 

2. special needs teachers


feel free to add.


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## rabbit (12 Feb 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> A national day of protest is needed,


 
With all respect, probably a waste of energy and garda resources in the grand overall scheme of things.

I suggest a national campaign HAP   ( "halve our politicians" ).   Halve the pay, pensions and perks of the politicians. ...or else bring in a tax rate of say 70% for those above 100,000 per annum. The rot starts at the top.   Those in RTE as well as ESB also need a big pay cut.  The ordinary working people have had enough.


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## Ron Burgundy (12 Feb 2009)

rabbit said:


> With all respect, probably a waste of energy and garda resources in the grand overall scheme of things.
> 
> I suggest a national campaign HAP ( "halve our politicians" ). Halve the pay, pensions and perks of the politicians. ...or else bring in a tax rate of say 70% for those above 100,000 per annum. The rot starts at the top. Those in RTE as well as ESB also need a big pay cut. *The ordinary working people have had enough.*


 
But how do you make that happen. Posting on a website ??? oh lets i'll ring Joe Duffy

Those in power need to see the anget 1st hand, like the pensioners did.


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## Guest128 (12 Feb 2009)

The _must _read AAM in the Dáil, surely


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## rabbit (12 Feb 2009)

Well, a national day of protest ( over 1. cervical cancer 2. special needs teachers ) will not achieve very much, in the overall scheme of things .  It would be like a business going bust fighting over twopence.   As a country we are borrowing 23 billion.   When the IMF arrive ( lets hope there will still be an IMF then + they will care enough about us to come in ) they will not say we can afford even as much as we do to those involved in cancer care + special needs.  Thats the reality of it.


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## thedaras (12 Feb 2009)

Back to original post...Could we have suggestions as to what real action can/will be taken by us?


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## Ron Burgundy (12 Feb 2009)

rabbit said:


> Well, a national day of protest ( over 1. cervical cancer 2. special needs teachers ) will not achieve very much, in the overall scheme of things . It would be like a business going bust fighting over twopence. As a country we are borrowing 23 billion. When the IMF arrive ( lets hope there will still be an IMF then + they will care enough about us to come in ) they will not say we can afford even as much as we do to those involved in cancer care + special needs. Thats the reality of it.


 
As i said add to it. The two points i raised are the ones that have annoyed me most. 

Everyone has their own area, for some its the pension levy, for some its the banks, for some its cost per TD/Minister. 

Once again posting on a site will achive


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## Padraigb (12 Feb 2009)

Have I got it right? Call a demonstration, and then decide what people are protesting about?

Down with this sort of thing.


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## Ron Burgundy (12 Feb 2009)

Padraigb said:


> Have I got it right? Call a demonstration, and then decide what people are protesting about?
> 
> Down with this sort of thing.


 
careful now.............


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## Lex Foutish (12 Feb 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> A national day of protest is needed, for me its the wastage and cancelation of essential services.
> 
> 1. cervical cancer
> 
> ...


 
Did you hear Brian Goggin of BoI on the One o' Clock News today being interviewed about the bank recapitalisation being provided by the State at a time when special needs children's teacher numbers were being cut?

He said that, in his opinion, the special needs situation was "...a worthy cause."

Condescending pr**k!  In Cork he'd be known as a *L****r*!


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## cole (12 Feb 2009)

Lex Foutish said:


> Condescending pr**k!  In Cork he'd be known as a *L****r*!



C'mon Lex spit it out.. a langer boy!

And all the king's horses 
And all the kings men 
Couldn't put the banks 
Together again.


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## Lex Foutish (12 Feb 2009)

Thanks Cole. I could think of a few better Cork expressions to describe that ghoul!

Remember a few years ago? They reckoned that the reason the Irish currency was called the Punt was because it rhymed with Bank Manager.........................!


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## Mpsox (13 Feb 2009)

Protesting is easy, it's coming up with alternative policies that is the problem, and I mean alternative polices that will actually work, not the "why bail out the bankers" type rubbish that keeps getting trotted out without anyone thinking it through

Instead of protesting against withdrawal of special needs teachers, why not protest outside the INTO headquarters over the 31 days uncertifed sick leave a teacher can take in a year with no action taken against them.
Why not protest outside the INO headquarters about the 7 nurses I saw in Kilkenny hospital last weekend standing in a ward discussing their holidays for nearly an hour or the midwife which didn't know what was wrong with an epidural when all it had happened was it had run out or the medical staff who are too lazy to wash their hands and are spreading superbugs all over the place.
Why not protest outside IMPACT headquarters over the unvouched expenses policies in many public sector areas
Why not protest outside the car tax offices which close at lunchtime, the one time working members of the public might be able to go down there and avail of their "services"

I've no arguement that the politicians, bankers and property developers have a lot to answer for, that we could scrap the undemocratically elected Seanad tomorrow and no one would even notice and lots of other things. But there are a lot of other people who are responsible as well


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## Ron Burgundy (13 Feb 2009)

Mpsox said:


> Protesting is easy, it's coming up with alternative policies that is the problem, and I mean alternative polices that will actually work, not the "why bail out the bankers" type rubbish that keeps getting trotted out without anyone thinking it through
> 
> *Instead of protesting against withdrawal of special needs teachers, why not protest outside the INTO headquarters over the 31 days uncertifed sick leave a teacher can take in a year with no action taken against them.*
> *Why not protest outside the INO headquarters about the 7 nurses I saw in Kilkenny hospital last weekend standing in a ward discussing their holidays for nearly an hour or the midwife which didn't know what was wrong with an epidural when all it had happened was it had run out or the medical staff who are too lazy to wash their hands and are spreading superbugs all over the place.*
> ...


 
Because everyone has there own point of view and things that are really getting to them at the moment. The removal of special needs teachers really annoys me. Therefore if there was a march that is what i would be protesting about.


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## Shawady (13 Feb 2009)

It might only be a small savings in the grand scheme of things but I would like to see a total reform of numbers of TDs , number of junior ministers, politicians expenses and ministers pensions.
Now is the best opportunity to force the government to make changes to how much they are paid themselves.
Is it really true that a former minister is entitled to a pension even though he/she may be still a sitting TD and being paid for this? 
Surely politicians should earn one salary while they are working and be entitled to only one pension when they retire.


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## DeeFox (13 Feb 2009)

Shawady said:


> Is it really true that a former minister is entitled to a pension even though he/she may be still a sitting TD and being paid for this?


 
It was in the Independent yesterday that Bertie Ahern earns €100,000 per annum as a government salary plus €160,000 per year as a ministerial pension - why is he drawing a pension when he is not retired or of pensionable age??.  And he also still has a driver, expenses, etc.  Yes, the rot certainly does start from the top.


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## DublinTexas (13 Feb 2009)

I started moving away from the state monopol and waist of state run company as much as I can.

I switched to Airtricity (saving 10% over ESB)
I switched to Flogas (saving 60% on standing charges)
I switched to Greenstar (saving 50% over county council)
I switched from AIB to Halifax
I boycott my local Hospital and go directly to a private A&E

And while I usualy do my tax return in January I deceided that this year I am going to wait until late before the deadline, do not longer do it online but rather on paper and this time I make sure I claim everything I can (even if I know that most of it will be rejected) rather than just accept that I need to pay a fair share.

In this "democracy" we don't have very many options of what we can do and unless you are part of a special interest group who can mobilize enough people (like elderly, students, taxi drivers, unions) there is slim change that you can bring enough people onto the street to have the goverment do their trade mark 360 turn.

I really don't see the backbone of this country (the average joe, hardworking, paying his taxes) getting any trackion with the goverment.


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## Mpsox (13 Feb 2009)

DeeFox said:


> It was in the Independent yesterday that Bertie Ahern earns €100,000 per annum as a government salary plus €160,000 per year as a ministerial pension - why is he drawing a pension when he is not retired or of pensionable age??. And he also still has a driver, expenses, etc. Yes, the rot certainly does start from the top.


 
not only that, when he resigned he got a big pay off. Try walking into your boss and see if you can get away with that!!!!!!


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## liaconn (14 Feb 2009)

Brian Goggin was on the news last night saying his salary would be 'only' around 2 million this year, due to cutbacks. It is really important that everyone gets out and protests next Saturday. Government need to realise that oridinary workers are not prepared to suffer while the rich remain rich and we all get poorer. The purpose of next Saturday is to show the Govt the sheer numbers of people who are not prepared to be walked on anymore. Giving out on these boards but not bothering to add your voice to a national  show of outrage is pointless.


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## Lex Foutish (14 Feb 2009)

DeeFox said:


> It was in the Independent yesterday that Bertie Ahern earns €100,000 per annum as a government salary plus €160,000 per year as a ministerial pension - why is he drawing a pension when he is not retired or of pensionable age??. And he also still has a driver, expenses, etc. Yes, the rot certainly does start from the top.


 
Very simply, Dee, because he's a politician and they make the laws to suit themselves.

Let's all wait in the long grass for them to knock on our doors when the next General Election is called.................................

A Shower of Langers! And in saying this, I'm doing a disservice to real langers!!


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## liaconn (14 Feb 2009)

I think we need to do a bit more than wait in the long grass. People need to act now and next Saturday is a good starting point. The politicians got a wake up  call last Oct when the pensioners came out in droves. They need another good shock now.


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## rabbit (14 Feb 2009)

Mpsox said:


> Protesting is easy, it's coming up with alternative policies that is the problem, and I mean alternative polices that will actually work, not the "why bail out the bankers" type rubbish that keeps getting trotted out without anyone thinking it through
> 
> Instead of protesting against withdrawal of special needs teachers, why not protest outside the INTO headquarters over the 31 days uncertifed sick leave a teacher can take in a year with no action taken against them.
> Why not protest outside the INO headquarters about the 7 nurses I saw in Kilkenny hospital last weekend standing in a ward discussing their holidays for nearly an hour or the midwife which didn't know what was wrong with an epidural when all it had happened was it had run out or the medical staff who are too lazy to wash their hands and are spreading superbugs all over the place.
> ...


 

Excellent post. Your point about the nurses reminds me of the ones I often see chatting for ages while on duty, among themselves, about their holidays etc. Maybe some nurses do work hard, but the ones I know certainly do not, even though they are very well paid.

I think the private sector has had enough.  It is our taxes that pay for the public service, the politicians etc.  How about us all having a one day demonstration ?


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## Complainer (15 Feb 2009)

Mpsox said:


> Instead of protesting against withdrawal of special needs teachers, why not protest outside the INTO headquarters over the 31 days uncertifed sick leave a teacher can take in a year with no action taken against them.


Don't forget to note on your placard that the average sick leave taken is actually one day per year. You might be better off staging this protest at the Dept Education, given that they control teachers contracts, but whatever floats your boat.


Mpsox said:


> Why not protest outside the INO headquarters about the 7 nurses I saw in Kilkenny hospital last weekend standing in a ward discussing their holidays for nearly an hour


I'm not sure why you'd want to go with the INO with this. The more obvious answer would be to say something to the nurses themselves, or to a local duty manager. Why didn't you take some action at the time?



Mpsox said:


> or the medical staff who are too lazy to wash their hands and are spreading superbugs all over the place.


I'm sorry to hear that you've fallen for Harney's spin that handwashing is the major cause of MRSA, when in fact, overcrowding of wards and outsourcing of cleaning services are the real issues.


Mpsox said:


> Why not protest outside IMPACT headquarters over the unvouched expenses policies in many public sector areas


Because you would be exposing your ignorance of how this works. Unvouched expense policies are a double-edged sword. Some trips I make a few quid, some trips I lose a few quid. There is no doubt that sign-off of expenses is far, far tighter in the public sector than I ever experienced in the private sector. 


Mpsox said:


> Why not protest outside the car tax offices which close at lunchtime, the one time working members of the public might be able to go down there and avail of their "services"


Which motor tax offices did you have in mind? The only one that I can find that still closes for lunch is in Donegal? Were you planning on heading up to Letterkenny for this protest?


Mpsox said:


> I've no arguement that the politicians, bankers and property developers have a lot to answer for, that we could scrap the undemocratically elected Seanad tomorrow and no one would even notice and lots of other things. But there are a lot of other people who are responsible as well


Very true, perhaps those that exaggerate and rant about non-existant problems might bear some responsibility?


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## liaconn (15 Feb 2009)

rabbit said:


> Excellent post. Your point about the nurses reminds me of the ones I often see chatting for ages while on duty, among themselves, about their holidays etc. Maybe some nurses do work hard, but the ones I know certainly do not, even though they are very well paid.
> 
> I think the private sector has had enough. It is our taxes that pay for the public service, the politicians etc. How about us all having a one day demonstration ?


 

Rabbit

The one day demonstration has been organised by Congress, it is not confined to the public service and is not simply about the levy.


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## Brianne (15 Feb 2009)

Rabbit, if you have a genuine complaint about nurses, maybe your time would be better spent on complaining to their local manager. Without doubt there are lazy nurses as well as lazy teachers , guards ,doctors and others. However, the best stand to take is to complain locally.
 Incidentally all nurses in this country are answerable to An Bord Altranais and every month , there are fitness to practice hearings in the High Court in which nurses are struck off. In fact it, as a profession in Ireland, is well regulated. 
If you really believe that MRSA is caused by lack of hand washing you are just another victim of the Harney propaganda to detract from the fact that hospitals in Ireland don't have enough isolation beds, and are cauldrons that allow MRSA to spread. But in the meantime, pay the minimum wage to cleaners who are the most important people in the fight against infection and blame the dirty nurses!!!!


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## grahamo (16 Feb 2009)

rabbit said:


> Excellent post. *Your point about the nurses reminds me of the ones I often see chatting for ages while on duty, among themselves, about their holidays etc.* Maybe some nurses do work hard, but the ones I know certainly do not, even though they are very well paid.
> 
> I think the private sector has had enough. It is our taxes that pay for the public service, the politicians etc. How about us all having a one day demonstration ?


 
What exactly is your problem with nurses Rabbit? Have you been dumped by a nurse recently?
You must spend a lot of time in hospitals to follow nurses around all day checking to see if they are working hard enough.
In my opinion Nurses, A&E Doctors, Paramedics etc. don't get paid enough! I certainly wouldn't do their job and I doubt many others would!


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## Mpsox (16 Feb 2009)

Complainer said:


> Don't forget to note on your placard that the average sick leave taken is actually one day per year. You might be better off staging this protest at the Dept Education, given that they control teachers contracts, but whatever floats your boat.
> 
> I'm not sure why you'd want to go with the INO with this. The more obvious answer would be to say something to the nurses themselves, or to a local duty manager. Why didn't you take some action at the time?
> 
> ...


 
re teachers, 4022 had more then 5 days uncertified sick leave last year. The fact that teachers have an automatic entitlement to any uncertified sick leave is a disgrace, not to mention that it is up to 31 days.Bear in mind as well that teachers only work for 9 months of the year, if they actually worked the same number of days as workers elsewhere, the figures would be higher. What really disappoints me is the failure to sack teachers who have high levels of uncertified sickness.
Incidentally I see that teachers are balloting for strike action, I suppose there's no chance that they'll decide to do the decent thing and go on strike over half-term or the Easter holidays instead of causing major inconveniences to parents


re handwashing, see attached which might suggest otherwise. I'm not saying it is the sole reason why MRSA occurs and that other actions are not needed but a simple, cost effective process seems to work in other countries, is Irish MRSA unique????
[broken link removed]

re expenses, I'm glad that some areas have tight expense policies, but let's be honest, FAS??? Plenty examples where that is not the case

Incidentally, re the one day demonstration, why not have it outside the local dole office and see what the reaction is?


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## Complainer (16 Feb 2009)

Mpsox said:


> re teachers, 4022 had more then 5 days uncertified sick leave last year. The fact that teachers have an automatic entitlement to any uncertified sick leave is a disgrace, not to mention that it is up to 31 days.Bear in mind as well that teachers only work for 9 months of the year, if they actually worked the same number of days as workers elsewhere, the figures would be higher. What really disappoints me is the failure to sack teachers who have high levels of uncertified sickness.
> Incidentally I see that teachers are balloting for strike action, I suppose there's no chance that they'll decide to do the decent thing and go on strike over half-term or the Easter holidays instead of causing major inconveniences to parents


I'm sure there a few teachers who abuse sick leave, just like there are few bank managers who abuse sick leave, and a few architects who abuse sick leave, and a few nurses who abuse sick leave. I haven't seen any evidence that abuse is a major problem, or that abuse is not managed. I reallt think this is much ado about nothing. There are lot bigger issues to be addressed.



Mpsox said:


> re handwashing, see attached which might suggest otherwise. I'm not saying it is the sole reason why MRSA occurs and that other actions are not needed but a simple, cost effective process seems to work in other countries, is Irish MRSA unique????
> [broken link removed]


Interesting to note that the media company behind that newspaper have been behind a campaign in those hospitals, so I'm not sure that they could be accepted as an unbiased source. Maybe Irish overcrowding is uniquely bad?



Mpsox said:


> re expenses, I'm glad that some areas have tight expense policies, but let's be honest, FAS??? Plenty examples where that is not the case


None of the FAS issues had anything to do with the unvouched problem that you raised. You might want to stop moving the goalposts if you want to have a sensible discussion on this.


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## Mpsox (17 Feb 2009)

Complainer said:


> I'm sure there a few teachers who abuse sick leave, just like there are few bank managers who abuse sick leave, and a few architects who abuse sick leave, and a few nurses who abuse sick leave. I haven't seen any evidence that abuse is a major problem, or that abuse is not managed. I reallt think this is much ado about nothing. There are lot bigger issues to be addressed.
> Only difference is that any company I've ever worked in, staff with that kind of sick rates would be sacked.  When I see 4000+ employees with at least one uncertifed sick day every 8 weeks (allowing for the amount of holidays a teacher has), that to me is clear evidence that the problem is not being managed at all
> 
> 
> ...


You're absolutely correct that FAS at nothing to do with unvouched expenses. That was just incredible arrogance from one area of the public sector. However, can you honestly justify an unvouched expense policy. I don't know anyone for example in the private sector who get's a lunch allowance if they are off site. Many private sector companies won't even allow lunch as a vouched expense on the grounds that you'd be eating your lunch if you were in the office anyway


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## Purple (17 Feb 2009)

liaconn said:


> Rabbit
> 
> The one day demonstration has been organised by Congress, it is not confined to the public service and is not simply about the levy.




Congress? Which congress? 
Do you mean the Catholic Congress of religious in Ireland?


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## Purple (17 Feb 2009)

Ron Burgundy said:


> The removal of special needs teachers really annoys me. Therefore if there was a march that is what i would be protesting about.


 It really annoys me too but you need to be clear as to where the blame lies. There is only a certain amount of money available to pay teachers. Knowing this the teachers unions have agitated for and received massive pay increases over the last few years. This means that the same money pays fewer teachers. So, massive pay increases for teachers in general over the last few years have now resulted in us running out of money for extra services such as special needs.


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## rabbit (17 Feb 2009)

grahamo said:


> What exactly is your problem with nurses Rabbit? Have you been dumped by a nurse recently?
> You must spend a lot of time in hospitals to follow nurses around all day checking to see if they are working hard enough.
> In my opinion Nurses, A&E Doctors, Paramedics etc. don't get paid enough! I certainly wouldn't do their job and I doubt many others would!


I do not have a problem with nurses, I do not follow them around and I have not been dumped by one, so no need to be personal.   I was merely agreeing with the previous poster who wrote "  about the 7 nurses (he) saw in Kilkenny hospital last weekend standing in a ward discussing their holidays for nearly an hour or the midwife which didn't know what was wrong with an epidural when all it had happened was it had run out or the medical staff who are too lazy to wash their hands and are spreading superbugs all over the place.".    I unfortunately have spent far longer under the roof of a hospital than I would have liked to and I observed what was going on , on many many occassions.    Yes, there are some great staff there, but there are many who are way overpaid for what they do, and many who do not work that hard at all.


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## grahamo (17 Feb 2009)

rabbit said:


> I do not have a problem with nurses, I do not follow them around and I have not been dumped by one, so no need to be personal. I was merely agreeing with the previous poster who wrote " about the 7 nurses (he) saw in Kilkenny hospital last weekend standing in a ward discussing their holidays for nearly an hour or the midwife which didn't know what was wrong with an epidural when all it had happened was it had run out or the medical staff who are too lazy to wash their hands and are spreading superbugs all over the place.". I unfortunately have spent far longer under the roof of a hospital than I would have liked to and I observed what was going on , on many many occassions. Yes, there are some great staff there, but there are many who are way overpaid for what they do, and many who do not work that hard at all.


 
Apologies, Rabbit, I certainly didn't intend to be personal
However, I am getting a bit peed off with the likes of nurses etc. being rubbished on here.
In my opinion Nurses,Doctors and health care workers put up with a lot of grief/stress during their working day and I honestly believe each one of them are worth 100 bankers or property developers or stock market speculators.


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## BoscoTalking (17 Feb 2009)

grahamo said:


> A
> In my opinion Nurses,Doctors and health care workers put up with a lot of grief/stress during their working day and I honestly believe each one of them are worth 100 bankers or property developers or stock market speculators.


Sorry now but this attitude sends me into orbit (or else i have been on Mars too long) The whole "they don't get paid half enough..." these professions are well paid on their own and by comparison with many countries - there are queues to get into them and people go abroad to train and return to work here - not all of them for the love of sick people more for the green. 
its just tosh and reminds me of all the Liam Doran " professional degree qualified nurses deserve x y and z ..." - fact is not all have degrees and most without degrees are far more professional..


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## Mpsox (17 Feb 2009)

grahamo said:


> Apologies, Rabbit, I certainly didn't intend to be personal
> However, I am getting a bit peed off with the likes of nurses etc. being rubbished on here.
> In my opinion Nurses,Doctors and health care workers put up with a lot of grief/stress during their working day and I honestly believe each one of them are worth 100 bankers or property developers or stock market speculators.


 
I'd doubt if all the patients of Dr Neary in Drogheda would agree with you on this

I agree that the majority of doctors and nurses do a good job in often difficult circumstances and I'm not sure I could do their job. However, you can't say that is the case for all.


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## rabbit (17 Feb 2009)

grahamo said:


> Apologies, Rabbit, I certainly didn't intend to be personal.


No problem




grahamo said:


> However, I am getting a bit peed off with the likes of nurses etc. being rubbished on here.
> In my opinion Nurses,Doctors and health care workers put up with a lot of grief/stress during their working day and I honestly believe each one of them are worth 100 bankers or property developers or stock market speculators.


I ( or probably anyone else on this thread as far as I can see )  do not "rubbish" all nurses.   However, Nurses,Doctors and health care workers are , as others have pointed out, well paid with job security and other perks.  As someone else wrote "these professions are well paid on their own and by comparison with many countries - there are queues to get into them and people go abroad to train and return to work here".
Sure some nurses + doctors put up with some stress sometimes - but not everone all the time eg  the 7 nurses another poster saw in Kilkenny hospital last weekend standing in a ward discussing their holidays for nearly an hour.  I have witnessed a lot of this type of carry on by hospital staff too, but often for just 15 or 30 minutes... presumably when they want to chat for longer they do it out of earshot of patients + visitors ? 
If you want to know what real stress is, consider those in negative equity for example who wonder how they are going to pay the mortgage at the end of the month, educate their kids, pay for the doctor for the kids etc.

The funniest thing of all you say is you honestly believe each one of them ( health care workers ) are worth 100 bankers or property developers or stock market speculators.  I know some " Health care workers " who are property developers ( albeit in a small way, or with section 23 apartment investments etc ) and "stock market speculators", in that they invested some of their savings in shares.   Half the country were "stock market speculators" in Eircom for example - and more than a few people had / have shares in B of I, AIB, etc.   I think its a bit sweeping to claim  health care workers  ( which by definition includes those earnings hundreds of thousands in the health care system eg consultants ) are worth 100 bankers or property developers or stock market speculators !  Not all bankers ( people who work in banks ) done something wrong you know.   If there were no "bankers or property developers or stock market speculators" its unlikely the health care sector would be as well paid as it is.   Public service pensions in Ireland are the highest in the world y'know...but obviously that is unsustainable given our increasing massive foreign borrowings.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2009)

grahamo said:


> In my opinion Nurses,Doctors and health care workers put up with a lot of grief/stress during their working day and I honestly believe each one of them are worth 100 bankers or property developers or stock market speculators.


Don't you think that the doctors earning €1'000'000+ a year have done some share buying/ property specualation in their time?


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## liaconn (17 Feb 2009)

Purple said:


> Congress? Which congress?
> Do you mean the Catholic Congress of religious in Ireland?


 
I don't see the point of this rather silly post. In case you're serious, 'congress' is short for Irish Congress of Trade Unions.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2009)

liaconn said:


> In case you're serious, 'congress' is short for Irish Congress of Trade Unions.



No it's not; ICTU is short for the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. "Congress" referrs to the house of Congress, part of the legislature of the United States of America. 
Some of the self important bearded Brethren in the ICTU started to refer to the ICTU as "Congress" a while back as if they were a branch of government (which, in many ways they were). It is important that citizens who are not part of this vested interest do not buy into their insidious attempt to usurp the democratic process.


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## Padraigb (18 Feb 2009)

Jaysus, Purple, that's pushing it a bit!

I will continue to refer to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions as "Congress" in informal usage, and I am convinced that democracy will not be endangered by that.


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## rabbit (18 Feb 2009)

Padraigb said:


> Jaysus, Purple, that's pushing it a bit!
> 
> I will continue to refer to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions as "Congress" in informal usage, and I am convinced that democracy will not be endangered by that.


 
People may not know which Congress ( from wherever ! ) you mean....far better to refer to this vested interest group as the ICTU.


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## Purple (18 Feb 2009)

There’s an ad in one of the free rags (Herald AM, I think) this morning with a stupid, nonsensical, populist and economically illiterate propaganda ad from the ICTU. In the bottom right hand corner, below the drivel, it says “Congress” in large letters with “Irish congress of trade unions” underneath in much smaller print. Make no mistake; the ICTU is engaged in an aggressive and insidious campaign to brand themselves as “Congress” and blur the line between them and the government and legislature of this country.


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## liaconn (18 Feb 2009)

Purple said:


> There’s an ad in one of the free rags (Herald AM, I think) this morning with a stupid, nonsensical, populist and economically illiterate propaganda ad from the ICTU. In the bottom right hand corner, below the drivel, it says “Congress” in large letters with “Irish congress of trade unions” underneath in much smaller print. Make no mistake; the ICTU is engaged in an aggressive and insidious campaign to brand themselves as “Congress” and blur the line between them and the government and legislature of this country.


 

Purple, I know you're anti union but that is really going too far. ICTU are an umbrella group for all trade unions in Ireland and the last thing they're trying to do is blur the line between themselves and Govt. 'Congress' is just short cut speak, its not part of some conspiracy theory.


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## Purple (18 Feb 2009)

liaconn said:


> Purple, I know you're anti union but that is really going too far. ICTU are an umbrella group for all trade unions in Ireland and the last thing they're trying to do is blur the line between themselves and Govt. 'Congress' is just short cut speak, its not part of some conspiracy theory.



I'm not anti union per say; if IBEC or any other vested interest group were doing the same thing I would be just as opposed to it.


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## DublinTexas (18 Feb 2009)

liaconn said:


> Purple, I know you're anti union but that is really going too far. ICTU are an umbrella group for all trade unions in Ireland and the last thing they're trying to do is blur the line between themselves and Govt. 'Congress' is just short cut speak, its not part of some conspiracy theory.


 
Well ever since the Polit Bureau (aka social partners) failed "congress" must somehow show that they are still a viable part of the political process and represent the people (all people not just the public sector workers) and making sure that "congress" is used over and over again gives them more legit point that they represent all people (and not just public service workers).

I'm all for unions (it's a workers right to organise) but right now I think this is actualy france with all the strikes going on.


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## Complainer (19 Feb 2009)

Mpsox said:


> You're absolutely correct that FAS at nothing to do with unvouched expenses. That was just incredible arrogance from one area of the public sector. However, can you honestly justify an unvouched expense policy. I don't know anyone for example in the private sector who get's a lunch allowance if they are off site. Many private sector companies won't even allow lunch as a vouched expense on the grounds that you'd be eating your lunch if you were in the office anyway


To be frank, I really don't think you know what you're talking about here. I've been on both sides of the fence, and unvouched fixed rate expenses are a double-edged sword. I've been in situations where I've travelled on a 7 am train, returning at 4.30 pm and I get the princely 5-hour allowance of about €16 for subsistence for the day. I have no real choice other than to take Iarnrod Eireann's pricey €12 brekkie, so I'm left €4 to spend on the trolley service on the return journey without being out of pocket. I have certainly found myself staying in downmarket hotels or B&Bs (which would never have been the case in my private sector days) to stay under the 24-hour allowance of €145 for 24 hours (accomodation and all meals). Indeed, I've lost money on some trips where I've opted to stay in the same hotel as the private sector consultants on the job (being paid out of my budget), as they aren't operating in the same restrictive environment. Some days I make a few quid on the €40 10-hour allowance, so it all comes out in the wash. However, the unvouched fixed rate allowance eliminates any issues about what is covered, and what is not covered. There is no arguements about the bottle of wine or the glass of beer - it's a fixed rate.


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## Purple (19 Feb 2009)

Complainer said:


> unvouched fixed rate expenses are a double-edged sword. I've been in situations where I've travelled on a 7 am train, returning at 4.30 pm and I get the princely 5-hour allowance of about €16 for subsistence for the day. I have no real choice other than to take Iarnrod Eireann's pricey €12 brekkie, so I'm left €4 to spend on the trolley service on the return journey without being out of pocket. I have certainly found myself staying in downmarket hotels or B&Bs (which would never have been the case in my private sector days) to stay under the 24-hour allowance of €145 for 24 hours (accomodation and all meals). Indeed, I've lost money on some trips where I've opted to stay in the same hotel as the private sector consultants on the job (being paid out of my budget), as they aren't operating in the same restrictive environment. Some days I make a few quid on the €40 10-hour allowance, so it all comes out in the wash. However, the unvouched fixed rate allowance eliminates any issues about what is covered, and what is not covered. There is no arguements about the bottle of wine or the glass of beer - it's a fixed rate.


I agree with that. It's the large sums of "walking around money" that I object to.


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## Bronte (20 Feb 2009)

Complainer said:


> . Some days I make a few quid on the €40 10-hour allowance,


Sorry I'm confused what do you get the €40 for?  Is this in addition to your hotel and meals or am I missing something?


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## Purple (20 Feb 2009)

Bronte said:


> Sorry I'm confused what do you get the €40 for?  Is this in addition to your hotel and meals or am I missing something?



For 5 hours or more away the allowance is €16, for over 10 hours away the allowance is €40, for an overnight it’s €145. I think that these are fair and reasonable rates and considering that with the alternative there would be a massive administrative cost to validating every little expense I think it’s a smart way of doing things that offers very good value for money.


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## DublinTexas (20 Feb 2009)

What has the country come too, now the Pdforra (Permanent Defence Forces Other Ranks Representative Association) is joining the protest tommorrow and sought assurances from Mr O’Dea that soldiers would not be used, as they have been in the past, to fill jobs vacated by striking ambulance staff and bus workers. 

Why the heck do we have Defence Forces if not to guarantee our security and wellbeing in case of major problems.

Isn't it that the case that if nationwide public service strikes were to take place, soldiers should be used to provide security in the country’s prisons and other institutions? 

Why have defence forces otherwise? The Money transports can be protected by gardai, propping up a real coast guard could be used for protecting the sea border and sending troups to foreign country's is not realy something I see fit for us either. So we keep expensive Defence Forces and when we need them to keep security in prisons they deceide they don't like it and protest.


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## Green (20 Feb 2009)

DublinTexas said:


> Why have defence forces otherwise?


 
Is it not a requirement of UN membership that we have a defence force?


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## DublinTexas (20 Feb 2009)

YOBR said:


> Is it not a requirement of UN membership that we have a defence force?


 
Giving that the UN is an organisation of "peace-loving states" that might be absurd, in fact [broken link removed]does not outline such a requirement.


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## Purple (20 Feb 2009)

YOBR said:


> Is it not a requirement of UN membership that we have a defence force?



No, Costa Rica is in the UN and it has no army (abolished in 1948).


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## Complainer (21 Feb 2009)

Bronte said:


> Sorry I'm confused what do you get the €40 for?  Is this in addition to your hotel and meals or am I missing something?


No - €40 to cover all meals for any absence more than 10 hours and less than 24 hours. If I don't have to buy dinner away, I'll make a few quid on this. If I find myself buying breakfast, lunch and dinner on the road, I'll lose a few quid.


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## DublinTexas (21 Feb 2009)

Complainer said:


> No - €40 to cover all meals for any absence more than 10 hours and less than 24 hours. If I don't have to buy dinner away, I'll make a few quid on this. If I find myself buying breakfast, lunch and dinner on the road, I'll lose a few quid.


 
Now someone needs to explain to me if this is the rule how the FAS spending happens than.

Are we saying there are one rule for the poor real workers and one rule for the others?


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## liaconn (21 Feb 2009)

I don't know about FAS, but complainer is quite right re the civil service. When I go away, I can't afford to have breakfast as they will then take 19 euro away leaving me with twenty euro for lunch, dinner and any teas or coffees. I usually bring a banana or a cereal bar and have it in my room. Hardly high living at the taxpayers' expense.


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## z103 (21 Feb 2009)

> Purple, I know you're anti union but that is really going too far. ICTU are an umbrella group for all trade unions in Ireland and the last thing they're trying to do is blur the line between themselves and Govt. 'Congress' is just short cut speak, its not part of some conspiracy theory.


Why are they calling themselves 'Congress' then? - when I first read that term on this thread, I thought it was some government group and was very confused by it.
ICTU is shorter, and not ambiguous.

I certainly would not join any such demonstration arranged by Unions, when they are partly responsible for the dire state the country is in right now. A pity it's them organising the protests.


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## Padraigb (22 Feb 2009)

leghorn said:


> Why are they calling themselves 'Congress' then? - when I first read that term on this thread, I thought it was some government group and was very confused by it.
> ICTU is shorter, and not ambiguous.



Why should they not call themselves "Congress"? People in the TU movement have referred to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions as "Congress" for donkey's years (at least 30, to my personal knowledge).

"ICTU" might require fewer keystrokes, but it's not a word: it's an initialism (despite the house style of the Irish times, which renders it as "Ictu").

You might as well say that "Nbru" is a word.


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## shanegl (22 Feb 2009)

Yeah, imagine people saying "SIPTU". It would never work.


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## Ancutza (22 Feb 2009)

If you really want to take a stand you have to form a new political party and I ain't joking.  

The current political parties in Ireland couldn't manage their way out of the proverbial paper bag.


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