# Leaving private sector choppy waters for Civil Service?



## SCurry (1 Mar 2016)

Hi there,

Just looking for some opinion on my current situation. I am currently working in IT/private sector west of the Shannon, 35 years old. Been 10 years in my current job and have only had one increase in 7 years (after I asked for it) due to a variety of factors so I'm stuck on 34k much longer than I thought I would be. As I have young family, mortgage etc and like where I live and my life in general I have muddled along without rocking the payrise boat. Also I have no pension options from my employer at all.

I'm currently well down the road towards a possible offer of an Executive Officer job in the Civil Service with a strong possibility of this being in the same town I currently work in. It would mean me leaving IT, which I do like, for something pretty much unknown to me but that said I am open to the change. I like working with people, am interested in plenty of things and so may well really like life in the CS. 

My query is though a financial one. I would take a 6k salary drop initially. As a family due to prudent borrowings over the years we can sustain it, my other half also works. My folks and now my wife are in agreement that long term between salary increases, job security and pension they think should the CS offer come I should take it. I think I pretty much agree with them but canvassing some random opinion! 

Feel free to chip in! Thanks


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## Jumpstartdublin (1 Mar 2016)

Go for it. And if u want to progress, it will be well within your capability. Plus cs will love your private sector experience. Pm me if you need more encouragement!


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## SCurry (1 Mar 2016)

Thanks for the encouragement! Yes that's what I am also factoring in, the chance hopefully soon enough to get prompted (2-5 years) to a higher grade as I have an hons degree in IT plus experience in private sector etc. That will put me on money I have no chance of getting if I stay in IT roles in the west.

With the demographic of the PS (aging due to lack of recruitment of late) do you think there will be good scope for promotion?


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## Jumpstartdublin (1 Mar 2016)

Yes lots of opps and also within quasi related organisations once you are 'in the system' - including secondment on projects. 

Biggest difference for you will be the 'work life balance' - you will be able to breath and have a life! 

Go for it and also try to chat to any relatives/ acquaintances they might know who already work within cs. 

I'd give you the job in an instant - the combination of a brain, outside private experience and your willingness to learn/ progress is the perfect candidate for the cs


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## SCurry (1 Mar 2016)

Yeah there is the work life balance also I find appealing. Possible CS office is 20 mins from me so I can have plenty of free time with the children etc, in IT there is always something new to learn and upskill in which I have found I normally have to do in the evenings and weekends just to keep up. This puts a strain on you especially when you have family commitments. The friends I have in the CS don't seem to have these concerns. Home at 4 or 5 and that is them done.

By the sounds of it you are saying they might look at me with experience in industry and IT and give more responsibility to sooner rather than later which is fine by me. I'm currently the sole IT person for a company with a €7 million turnover and almost 100 staff so I can't imagine it being more responsible than that. 

Please God now I get the offer I am hoping for as I think mentally I have decided to roll the dice and go for it!


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## LS400 (1 Mar 2016)

You sound very ambitious and energetic, My fear for you would be, that, it will soon get knocked out of you. Not going to get into Private sector Vs CS, it just is what it is.
 I have 2 young kids, One very ambitious and is destined for big things, the other, more laid back, too chilled. I can see a career in the CS looming. Thats just my opinion as someone who has dealing with the CS/Ps on a daily basis. As I say, not getting into it, so no point in the usual suspects having a go.


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## SCurry (1 Mar 2016)

My biggest ambition is to have a consistent income in the west of Ireland to put food on the table and pay the bills. Have time in the evening to go and watch my son play football and my daughter dancing etc. Those are my main ambitions. I'm thinking a steady 9-5 in the CS the long term solution over the more volatile environment I am in now. I'm aware of the people who will say you will get institutionalised in the CS/PS but I'll aim to avoid that, keep busy and try and get a promotion or two in the meantime. I can put extra energies into my family and hobbies after that all going to plan. I suppose I'm not  a gambler by nature hence my leaning towards leaving IT for the CS if I get the opportunity. I might do quite well in IT if I stay in it, I might also lose my job in a year and be forced to work a long distance away, that's the reality unfortunately.


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## Purple (1 Mar 2016)

I suggest you go for it.
It sounds like you have made up your mind but just want some reassurance. You don't have to stay there forever if it doesn't work out. You could also do some freelance work in IT at a later date if you want and the opportunities are there.

It sounds like you are institutionalised  in your current you, just about keeping up with work demands and not having any time to step back and look at your future. It is often the case in the SME sector that the sole IT guy or the sole QA guy or the sole whatever guy is not valued as you are considered an overhead, a necessary evil. That's not a good place to be.

At a minimum the new job should give you space and time to plan for your long term future.


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## Northie (1 Mar 2016)

Hi SCurry, I have a slightly similar background to yourself with a degree in Engineering, except I had been made redundant from my IT role and had opted to take a year or two with very small kids, and a husband that was working 80hr weeks also in IT before the EO offer came up.

I'm now 8 years in the Civil Service and there has been good and bad.

The Good 

I have flexible working arrangements which are a serious help with kids and hectic sporting schedules. I've also been lucky with the areas I have worked, in that I have been given the chance to work more to my ability then to my grade. Some areas of the civil service are still very old fashioned but thankfully what I've seen is that the senior people I've worked with are delighted to see intelligent, interested people working with them.
Promotion wise you are in a better position now, as the freeze in the civil service that came in just after I started is only recently relaxed and promotion opportunities are more wide spread. I've recently succeed at promotion to HEO (yeah)
On the money front you will quickly regain the drop in salary, whether you agree or not increments are set so you can clearly see where you might be in 2,3,4 years time (assuming new governments don't go nuts)

The bad

you are coming from an environment where you've probably had great scope to pursue improvements as you feel they have been required. My previous role in IT, I would have been a team lead and if I could show that a process needed improvement I would have been supported in changing it. In the CS its much more rigid, I'm not saying change doesn't happen but its a much less fluid work environment. My hubbie often comments that he would never be able to cut it.

The in between:

I'll be totally honest and admit that I've probably had a couple of years within that 8 where I have drifted along in work, sometimes due to outside family pressure, and sometimes from a lack of motivation within work. But on the whole I've had more years where I've had great opportunities, good challenges and feel I've accomplished something. There certainly isn't the same pressure to perform as in the private sector. I've always accomplished what has been assigned to me but there isn't the same ongoing push to constantly improve performance quarter on quarter that you get in IT particularly in the private sector.
The other thing to be aware of is the "generalist" approach to career development in the Civil Service. The idea being that you can end up in some very diverse roles. I'm currently 4 years in my current role and considering professional certification (paid for by work) but I could potentially be changed position in a couple of years and no longer directly using the certification, it will obviously still stand to me but....
I have to say on the whole I'm happy with where I am. Every now and again I look at the high flying careers of some of my college class mates and wonder. But my current life situation wouldn't mix with mad hours and travel. So for me it was the right decision, just don't tell my Mam, who told me when I was doing my leaving cert to apply straight to the civil service


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## LS400 (1 Mar 2016)

Thats quite a responsibility you have at the moment, I some how think your really going to have the mother of all head wrecking moments if the Company make you an offer you cant refuse to keep your skills with them..


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## SCurry (1 Mar 2016)

Some great replies and insight from you all thanks very much. 

Purple - very perceptive! You are right I am undervalued here, I'm not paid much more than the receptionist yet the responsibilities are worlds apart, I keep well on top of things and thank God have never had any downtime in all my days here managing the systems but this is taken totally for granted. There's a well known mantra in IT than you're only noticed when things go wrong and when you have everything humming along nicely people wonder what you're doing. I'm one of those. By and large it doesn't bother me and I have alot of autonomy but I don't want to be 45 with college looming for my children trying to scrape the fees together because the overlooked IT guy can't get a decent raise. Also I am currently doing some freelance IT work evenings and weekends with some local places I have made contacts with so I will likely keep those up should I leave for the CS.

Northie thank you very much for all those pros and cons. I agree with pretty much all of it especially about fluid work environment, I'll miss that part of here should I leave  but you can't have everything

LS400 yep part of my reason for brainstorming like this with you folks is that I expect that may happen in the mild panic that might ensue. I want to be 100% decided so that if that head wrecking offer comes I can bat it away! One thing I have found out is that if/when they look for my second reference it has to come from my current employer so I will have to break it to them at that point making for an awkward conversation, be no going back at that point.


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## Deiseblue (1 Mar 2016)

A good work/life balance , incremental salary increases , paid                   overtime , a pensionable job & partial pay restoration agreed & more on the way hopefully , allied to the protection of being part of a hugely Unionised workforce as opposed to a job where you appear to be undervalued & underpaid.

I think your mind is already made up.


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## thedaddyman (1 Mar 2016)

You will get all the security the comes with being in a CS role but there are some-things that you will need to deal with

Firstly, it's unlikely that the CS role will be as flexible as a role in a private sector IT company can be. It's likely to be very defined, rigid and don't rock the boat.

Secondly, the public sector is outsourcing more and more of its IT, especially anything new. Probably a way of getting around hiring restrictions. I'm not aware of jobs being outsourced but certainly I've been involved in many tenders (as an IT provider) where we take on the creation and running of systems. It maybe that what will be left in the long term is the managing of suppliers rather then the management of IT

Personally, I think you run the risk of being very bored but there is nothing to stop you perhaps doing other things outside of work, either consultancy or volunteering for organisations where your skills can be well used


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## Leper (1 Mar 2016)

I work in the Public Service with IT guys who graduated from the Private Sector. They have made the transition without apparent problems.  Most of them are monuments to boredom and are the "senior boys" who continue to wear jeans+teeshirt instead of the requisite shirt, tie + slacks. It took some time for them to settle and get away from their previous lingo of using "awesome" and "amazing" in nearly every sentence. When they arrived they were world-changers as far as they themselves were concerned.  They have found their level at this stage and have integrated like they were always there. 

One piece of advice I would give to SCurry is to keep his part-time work to himself and not seen to be doing some of it during the working day under any circumstances. Furthermore, keep eyes and ears open and think before he speaks.  The PS is a good place to be, but tread carefully until he knows his audience better than he knows himself. Take nothing for granted and beware what might happen.  I say the foregoing in good faith.


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## mammyof2 (1 Mar 2016)

Hi SCurry

My tuppence (as a civil servant)

I would look into the Department and the office you are likely to be employed in in a bit more detail. You are clearly an intelligent person and ambitious person. If you were in Dublin or Cork, I would tell you to go for it, as even if you ended up in a job and an office that you weren't happy in, you could maximise the positive bits for a few years (time with kids, perhaps opportunities to study for further or different qualifications that would be financially covered by your Department) and hopefully get a promotion a few years down the line into another Department or office. However, it sounds as though you are in or near a small town with one particular office and not really in a position to move. I would be very careful in that circumstance. Most of the civil service is fine - fewer and fewer dead end jobs and old fashioned attitudes to work. But its not uniformly positive and offices outside the main cities can be sometimes end up being backwaters with very little innovation and a very negative work ethic. I'm saying this as a civil servant who really likes their job and feels there is a lot of scope for pursuing improvements, inputting into policy, making a positive difference and progressing my career, so I am as far from 'civil servants are all lazy and do nothing and I wouldn't work there if you paid me double' as it gets (ironically, given your reasons for wanting to accept a CS job, the only thing I don't like is that things are so busy that I am rarely home before 7, so don't get as much time with my children as I would like!). I would think hard about whether you are willing to move from where you are over time as promotion opportunities come up. If you are going into a small office, promotion opportunities may be rare so you'd realistically be looking at open or inter-departmental competitions, either generalist or specialist, if you want to move reasonably fast and that does require mobility.


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## Jumpstartdublin (1 Mar 2016)

Delighted to see your excellent feedback. Hope it helps 

Unsure regarding the turnover/ staff ratio. Know a public sector org with over 250 million turnover incl capital exp and circa 850 staff - with 7 staff in IT...


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## Leper (2 Mar 2016)

I notice you're stuck on 34K for years per your post. I would have thought people working in IT would be on a much higher rate. You might be entitled to join the CS with credit from your degree and experience. This is something you can take up with HR if you take up your new job. I have seen several first-timers to the CS start several increments up.

On 34K, I would have no problem informing current employer of your new job (once offered).  You might be able to get a redundancy deal (I've seen it done).  If you do get a few bob, keep it to yourself.  You're joining as an Executive Officer and parachuting into an area where many would not have been successful in internal promotion competitions. Like I said in my previous post (and speaking from hard experience) there will be some green eyes looking towards you. Also, remember your new colleagues working as EO probably were promoted internally on their experience only.  You could be eyed as a threat to their future careers. 

I'm not trying to frighten you off, but I've seen all of above and I even came across cast iron cases for dismissal of bullying staff where more senior management would not press the "sack" button.


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## SCurry (2 Mar 2016)

This thread gets better as it goes thanks all. Fortunately some of my private sector experience before my current job was with large multinationals so I have seen how some of the politics of promotion works and causes friction etc. I am a pretty inoffensive type and pretty sure will make friends easily in there (if I get the offer) although I know there are bound to be some put out especially if I parachute into a position they wanted, you can't control that. 

It will be an office outside of the main cities mammyof2 with a bit of luck, appreciate that info regarding the possible environment, it's just something I'll have to deal with should it arise and perhaps promotion might not be too easy but I've not got a crystal ball so just doing as much due diligence as I can. Where I am now there definitely aint any promotion of that I am sure. I have been studying on and off with IT related courses since I left college and if I thought doing something else would help me once I was in the CS I would certainly give it a shot, especially if they fund some of it.

Leper yes 34k, people think when you tell them you work in IT that you are on big bucks, not in the west bar a small number of jobs. I'm pulling in maybe an extra 3k in side jobs which helps certainly but can sometimes mean a 12 hour day. That said if my company had been giving even modest increases since I have been here I would be on 40k but its been the opposite "you're lucky to have a job" type stuff since the downturn and still prevails. Lots have left, some for the Public Sector.


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## tommygirl (2 Mar 2016)

Oh to be back again... I am going to go against the trend here. I joined the public sector over 10 years ago. Also a former IT graduate. I am on the same grade for the last 10 years. I had no incentive to move up grades as I was going to get my increment every year anyway and whilst kids were young etc. I became complacent. Now I'm in the position that there are no more increments to be had so if I stay here for another 20 years I will not get an extra penny other than what is agreed nationally. Any promotional opportunities (few and far between) seem to be 'closed shops' and often underhand. Any innovative ideas are not encouraged. Or worse, taken and claimed by someone else. I have come to accept a certain level of inefficiencies but the frustration that I still feel 10 years later is very real. I could go on and on about all the issues.

On the plus side I did receive my increments every year so the frustration of not progressing only kicked-in 2 years ago. The hours are good. I have managed to be off 6 weeks every summer between parental and shorter working year. Take parental leave whenever I want. Flexi time. 30 days holidays. My department is relaxed. Work 15 minutes from home. I learnt to come to work every day and walk out the door every evening and accept that I am well paid for what I do. If they do not want to use my skills or knowledge or experience that's their loss! I would love to leave but have no-where to go with my IT skills not kept up to date and would find it impossible to get the same terms and conditions. I have heard mention of 'Golden handcuffs' which describes my situation exactly. Will keep trying to get promoted but in the meantime will take all the perks that are going.

Sorry for the long reply. If you do take the job keep your IT work going if at all possible to ensure your skills are kept up to date. Go for any and every promotional opportunity. You have a chance if you climb the ladder quickly but I think now I am on the long and leisurely route upwards as it appears if you are too long at one grade it is hard to get the opportunity to take the next step. Not sure what I need to do to get to the next step though. Join the Union (although kills me to give that advice but I know what they are like if you are out). Take a deep breath and hope that you are not sitting there in 10 years time feeling like me!

Good luck with whatever you decide...


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## Leo (2 Mar 2016)

Without knowing the details of your current role, with 10 years experience in IT, to me it looks like you're getting way below the market rate where you are. Graduates joining here will all be on more than that within the first year.


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## SCurry (2 Mar 2016)

Thanks Tommygirl all opinions welcomed. I think that appears to be a commonly flagged downsize you have to be aware of, you could become stagnant etc. I suppose not something I'll really know unless I am in there for a while and see the lie of the land.

I agree Leo I am (I should be paid 40k, Id consider that fair in the west for what I do) but the only offers I have had for better jobs over the years have been in Galway and Dublin and those aren't reachable for me unless I stay away from home during the week which would evaporate any salary gains. There are lots of advantages living along the Wild Atlantic Way but a glut of well paid IT jobs there ain't. Friends of mine in IT have left Dublin to move home or close to it and taken big cuts in salary but is a lifestyle choice. Hence the lure of the CS, same pay on both coasts with much lower cost of living on the coast I'm on. 

Are the graduates you refer to Dublin based?

Anyway, I have to wait and see first if the concrete offer comes through from the CS. At the moment I only have an indication from chapter house of the likely department destination, nothing concrete.


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## Leo (2 Mar 2016)

SCurry said:


> Are the graduates you refer to Dublin based?



Dublin and Galway. If you could do the working away from home for a while, more and more of the bigger IT companies are becoming more flexible where they will accommodate staff working from home once they've proven themselves, perhaps only working in the office 1 or 2 days a week.


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## Jumpstartdublin (2 Mar 2016)

A clerical officer with some experience- but not a lot of responsibility - can earn 38000 euro in cs! Well paid to answer the phone...


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## Leper (2 Mar 2016)

Jumpstartdublin said:


> A clerical officer with some experience- but not a lot of responsibility - can earn 38000 euro in cs! Well paid to answer the phone...



Jumpstartdublin, Long before you joined the forum we had civil service bashing here which abated occasionally.  Your post is naive and well you know it. Cop On!
You are a better poster than this.

Love
Lep


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## Jumpstartdublin (2 Mar 2016)

Sorry Lep wasn't looking to state anything exceptional- except a basic fact. 38000 in cs is good money, compared to what the original poster is getting in private. Nothing more than a fact. Apologies if anyone feels offended.


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## Deiseblue (2 Mar 2016)

It is of course a fact that top of the scale for a Clerical Officer is approx 38k , starting at 23/24 k what I didn't realise was that all such employees sole function was to answer phones  - you learn something every day !


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## mammyof2 (2 Mar 2016)

It isn't.

COs do a wide variety of stuff - processing applications, a lot of front-facing roles (the people behind the counter in social welfare offices would mainly be COs, admin, accounts, HR etc. I don't know of any who 'just answer the phone' ....


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## Leper (3 Mar 2016)

Jumpstartdublin said:


> Sorry Lep wasn't looking to state anything exceptional- except a basic fact. 38000 in cs is good money, compared to what the original poster is getting in private. Nothing more than a fact. Apologies if anyone feels offended.



Just to add a little:- A guy who becomes a Medical Consultant can do his Leaving Cert final two years in secondary school, go through his years in Medical School 3rd Level, serve as a hospital doctor (NCHD), become a hospital consultant in less than half the time a clerical officer attains a salary of €38,000. This is a fact.

Jumpstartindublin's post:-"A clerical officer with some experience- but not a lot of responsibility - can earn 38000 euro in cs! Well paid to answer the phone..." Irrespective of what you said this is not a basic fact. That post would be at home in forums like People's Republic of Cork, even Boards.ie or on radio shows like that shock jock guy on local FM radio in Cork who alegedly entertained himself on an Aer Lingus flight from London some time ago.

A quip on my calendar last year advised:- Never taint an apology with a reason. Good advice as most of us Oldies, but Goldies know only too well.


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## SCurry (3 Mar 2016)

Leo said:


> Dublin and Galway. If you could do the working away from home for a while, more and more of the bigger IT companies are becoming more flexible where they will accommodate staff working from home once they've proven themselves, perhaps only working in the office 1 or 2 days a week.



Yeah I have been down this route to a point, got an offer in Galway last year, starting at 38k. Would involve 3.5 hours in a car round trip with Galway traffic factored in. There was to be 6/9 months kind of probation in the office full-time and then there was the possibility (but no guarantees) of 2/3 days from home. I thought long and hard about it but couldn't do it in the end. Also Mrs SCurry was against it. I turned down 3 jobs in the last year in my general location as none of them were offering anything much better and sometimes nothing better. If I was within 1 hour of Galway or Dublin I would be thinking totally differently about this but I'm not.

I'll be honest I am questioning my ambition at times kind of settling for the possibility of the EO role in CS and taking a pay-cut, leaving my IT knowledge behind to a point but its the longer, bigger picture I am thinking of. For someone who did pretty well in school (450pts), an hons degree plus extra certs over the years I know my career hasn't work out like it should have but I have many blessings in life much more important than money or career so I shake off those thoughts when they creep in. 

I'll post again if/when I get an offer from the CS and let you all now what I decide! Great replies and feedback all


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## Jumpstartdublin (3 Mar 2016)

Obviously some internal spat underway. I would prefer not to engage. I expect the poster would like helpful advice


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## Deiseblue (3 Mar 2016)

Jumpstartdublin said:


> Obviously some internal spat underway. I would prefer not to engage. I expect the poster would like helpful advice



Which we all endeavoured to do before your ill judged comment about being paid 38k to answer phones prompted contrary replies.


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## Jon Snow (3 Mar 2016)

SCurry, if you haven't already I'd suggest you check out the threads on Boards.ie in relation to the current CS EO competitions, you might get more encouragement or insight there.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057251168


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## Jumpstartdublin (3 Mar 2016)

Deiseblue said:


> Which we all endeavoured to do before your ill judged comment about being paid 38k to answer phones prompted contrary replies.


Unsure what issue is - statement is one of fact. Appropriate to compare the original poster's salary for IT role compared with the cs clerical role   End of- no further required


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## Páid (3 Mar 2016)

Jumpstartdublin said:


> Unsure what issue is - statement is one of fact. Appropriate to compare the original poster's salary for IT role compared with the cs clerical role   End of- no further required


You should be comparing the average wage for someone with ten years experience in IT, not someone who is earning significantly less than that average if you are trying to make a salary for salary comparison.


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## Deiseblue (3 Mar 2016)

No , the facts are that the starting salary is 24k rising to the top of the scale figure of 38k & of course it is is a total misrepresentation to state that all such employees are " well paid to answer the phone " - as if that was their only function !


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## Jumpstartdublin (3 Mar 2016)

Well fortunately I speak from reality - staff who answer phones in cs for 38000- I know them personally. 

 No comparison with the work of an IT professional- except to state that the original poster was underpaid in current role.


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## Páid (3 Mar 2016)

Jumpstartdublin said:


> Well fortunately I speak from reality - staff who answer phones in cs for 38000- I know them personally.



They couldn't be. The max of the scale is actually €33,735 with two further long service increments after 3 & 6 years at the max of the scale. The maximum salary they could be on is €35,515 after 18 years service.

Reference - http://per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/circ282009.pdf


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## Jumpstartdublin (3 Mar 2016)

What's the issue now ? 35500 or 38000 for answering phones. It's good money either way


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## Jon Snow (3 Mar 2016)

Jumpstartdublin said:


> What's the issue now ? 35500 or 38000 for answering phones. It's good money either way



I think the issue is your glib attitude towards a cohort of one third of the civil servants in the State...!


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## Páid (3 Mar 2016)

The issue is that your claims are neither fair nor accurate. You seem to be suggesting that about 13,000 clerical staff in the civil service get paid 38k annually just for answering phones. The truth is that the absolute max is 35k (with the average being considerably lower) and that the work is varied across 15 Departments and consists of a lot more than answering phones.


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## Sophrosyne (3 Mar 2016)

Hi SCURRY,

Have you checked out publicjobs.ie.

I entered the category Information Technology and subcategory ICT other.

 page was returned.

It might be worthwhile to keep an eye on this as something may come up that suits you.


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## Leper (4 Mar 2016)

I must applaud SCurry for his contributions here. I know he hasn't jumped to the Civil Service yet.  He appears to be a forward looking  person too. He might have been led into some kind of sense of security.  I bet his transition will not be as smooth as he might think.  Sixteen years ago I  made the transition from the Private to the Public sector.  It was bloody difficult over the first six months and lots of blood was spilt, especially my blood.

I have spoken to others who made the same journey and none of them had a soft ride and lost some blood too.  You do not know where you are going.  You don't know the habits of your new work colleagues.  You might think you do, but you do not know the work either.  In all jobs cliques are built up over the years.  Cliques can be good or bad (don't forget).  A new broom needs time to settle before it is capable of sweeping clean.

I advise SCurry to tread carefully because the minefields around Stalingrad in WW2 were small compared to what is ahead for him. I hope he keeps in touch here.


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## Jon Snow (4 Mar 2016)

Leper said:


> I must applaud SCurry for his contributions here. I know he hasn't jumped to the Civil Service yet.  He appears to be a forward looking  person too. He might have been led into some kind of sense of security.  I bet his transition will not be as smooth as he might think.  Sixteen years ago I  made the transition from the Private to the Public sector.  It was bloody difficult over the first six months and lots of blood was spilt, especially my blood.
> 
> I have spoken to others who made the same journey and none of them had a soft ride and lost some blood too.  You do not know where you are going.  You don't know the habits of your new work colleagues.  You might think you do, but you do not know the work either.  In all jobs cliques are built up over the years.  Cliques can be good or bad (don't forget).  A new broom needs time to settle before it is capable of sweeping clean.
> 
> I advise SCurry to tread carefully because the minefields around Stalingrad in WW2 were small compared to what is ahead for him. I hope he keeps in touch here.



Ah steady on Leper would you, you're laying it on a bit thick there!

I ran out of my last job in the private sector, practically cried with joy the day I got offered my position in the CS, and I've had a hugely positive experience in the years since. A bloodless coup, to borrow your analogy...

A bit of humility, respect for the experience of colleagues who've been around the block, and a good work ethic, will go a long way - no different than anywhere else.


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## SCurry (4 Mar 2016)

Sophrosyne said:


> Hi SCURRY,
> 
> Have you checked out publicjobs.
> 
> It might be worthwhile to keep an eye on this as something may come up that suits you.



Thanks yes I am signed up to the alerts. I keep a good eye on them. Nothing doing ICT wise in my area for the last 18 months, I did do interview with an IT for an ICT role and came first on the panel thinking it would lead to an offer only to find out the role was being given to a guy who had already been in there on a 2 year rolling contract, fair enough but pretty frustrating when you hear it after all the prep I did!

Anyway, I digress.


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## SCurry (4 Mar 2016)

Leper said:


> I must applaud SCurry for his contributions here. I know he hasn't jumped to the Civil Service yet.  He appears to be a forward looking  person too. He might have been led into some kind of sense of security.  I bet his transition will not be as smooth as he might think.  Sixteen years ago I  made the transition from the Private to the Public sector.  It was bloody difficult over the first six months and lots of blood was spilt, especially my blood.
> 
> I have spoken to others who made the same journey and none of them had a soft ride and lost some blood too.  You do not know where you are going.  You don't know the habits of your new work colleagues.  You might think you do, but you do not know the work either.  In all jobs cliques are built up over the years.  Cliques can be good or bad (don't forget).  A new broom needs time to settle before it is capable of sweeping clean.
> 
> I advise SCurry to tread carefully because the minefields around Stalingrad in WW2 were small compared to what is ahead for him. I hope he keeps in touch here.



Sounds like that might be going a bit OTT Leper?! I'm not the blood spilling type by nature I have to say 

My ability to get on with people is one of my best qualities so I'm not anticipating any blood-loss for anybody! I'm world wise at my age and know how large orgs work (in the private sector anyway) and I have found people in the very large part to be helpful, friendly and welcoming if you make the effort to be the same with them, life is easier that way.


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## Leper (5 Mar 2016)

SCurry said:


> Sounds like that might be going a bit OTT Leper?! I'm not the blood spilling type by nature I have to say
> 
> My ability to get on with people is one of my best qualities so I'm not anticipating any blood-loss for anybody! I'm world wise at my age and know how large orgs work (in the private sector anyway) and I have found people in the very large part to be helpful, friendly and welcoming if you make the effort to be the same with them, life is easier that way.



You know SCurry, you're as near a clone of somebody I know who made the transition from the Private to the Public Service as a Clerical Officer.  She was outgoing, friendly, she could have made friends with even Hitler and Stalin, in a nutshell she is probably the most inoffensive person in the country. She did not know it for quite some time but she was systematically marginalized by her new female colleagues. This went on over several months.  Eventually, nobody would speak to her.  Her life was turned upside down.  They refused every co-operation with her.  Let's call her Mary (not her real name) a hardened trade unionist who could weed out any argument and seperate wrong from right.  Her work rate was good and her stamina would equal anyone's. 

Mary approached each of her colleagues who smiled back sarcastically and would not engage on what was happening.  She approached her Line Manager and asked that an especial watch would be kept on happenings. She herself recorded everything on emails which she sent home immediately thereby having a time and date of what was going on. She knew of no reason why was was happening, was happening. Neither did her Line Manager.

The bullies were approached by management and again only silence was the answer.  One "spokesperson" advised that Mary's treatment would cease and a line was drawn in the sand.  Mary arrived in work after and the silence continued and continued.

I know what you are thinking.  Would somebody be sacked? Mary was moved to another location and although a fighter felt that the move would be the best result for a  quiet life. The bully gang was left intact.  

The foregoing is an accurate synopsis of a longer story.


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## Jon Snow (5 Mar 2016)

Leper said:


> You know SCurry, you're as near a clone of somebody I know who made the transition from the Private to the Public Service as a Clerical Officer.  She was outgoing, friendly, she could have made friends with even Hitler and Stalin, in a nutshell she is probably the most inoffensive person in the country. She did not know it for quite some time but she was systematically marginalized by her new female colleagues. This went on over several months.  Eventually, nobody would speak to her.  Her life was turned upside down.  They refused every co-operation with her.  Let's call her Mary (not her real name) a hardened trade unionist who could weed out any argument and seperate wrong from right.  Her work rate was good and her stamina would equal anyone's.
> 
> Mary approached each of her colleagues who smiled back sarcastically and would not engage on what was happening.  She approached her Line Manager and asked that an especial watch would be kept on happenings. She herself recorded everything on emails which she sent home immediately thereby having a time and date of what was going on. She knew of no reason why was was happening, was happening. Neither did her Line Manager.
> 
> ...



Ah well obviously if that happened to Mary then that is typical of the civil service as a whole then isn't it...  

Let's forget about all the people who get along just fine with each other and focus on the exceptions to scare the bejesus out of SCurry. 

You should change your username to HyperboLeper...!!


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## AlbacoreA (5 Mar 2016)

Leper said:


> ....She did not know it for quite some time but she was systematically marginalized by her new female colleagues....



That could happen anywhere public or private.


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## AlbacoreA (5 Mar 2016)

SCurry said:


> ...My query is though a financial one. I would take a 6k salary drop initially. As a family due to prudent borrowings over the years we can sustain it, my other half also works. My folks and now my wife are in agreement that long term between salary increases, job security and pension they think should the CS offer come I should take it. I think I pretty much agree with them but canvassing some random opinion!...



I did it to public not CS and it worked out well for all the above reasons. But for some they got stuck somewhere with no salary increases, no increments and promotions due to austerity and also embargo. Which meant no recruitment, which meant no promotions. Depending where you are working there maybe people in their roles for a long time. Someone starting might be at the bottom of the list. I've seen this also and people have had to move laterally to move upwards. Move to other dept etc. I would say movement between jobs is a lot less than in private sector. Depend where you are working though. One office can be different to the next. You can hit a ceiling pretty fast. Whereas in the private sector you can move around a lot more easily. In my opinion anyway.

The public sector can often feel like 10 people trying to decide what movie to go see in the cinema, and bringing granny along was a bad idea. She'll pick "Daniel in Convert Live" every time. That can get tiring. If you get into somewhere that's more progressive it will be closer to a private sector experience. 

That said your experience in the private sector is very static. Mainly due to location, but perhaps due to your own choice. So it might suit you. I've done both moved around, contracting but also stayed in one spot too long, because it suited. Both have the pros and cons.


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## Leper (5 Mar 2016)

Jon Snow said:


> Ah well obviously if that happened to Mary then that is typical of the civil service as a whole then isn't it...
> 
> Let's forget about all the people who get along just fine with each other and focus on the exceptions to scare the bejesus out of SCurry.
> 
> You should change your username to HyperboLeper...!!



Come on Jon, you're a better poster than this. I never said everybody in the civil service is a bully or anything like it.  I merely posted to ensure SCurry would not have to endure what Mary did.  Incidentally, what I posted is a mere fraction of the experiences endured by Mary. . . .and if I change my username I'll decide, not you.


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## Jon Snow (5 Mar 2016)

Leper said:


> Come on Jon, you're a better poster than this. I never said everybody in the civil service is a bully or anything like it.  I merely posted to ensure SCurry would not have to endure what Mary did.  Incidentally, what I posted is a mere fraction of the experiences endured by Mary. . . .and if I change my username I'll decide, not you.



My point was quite simply that you're scaremongering, one is no more likely to run afoul of a clique or be bullied in the public sector than in a similar sized private sector office.


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## moneybox (6 Mar 2016)

SCurry said:


> YFor someone who did pretty well in school (450pts), an hons degree plus extra certs over the years I know my career hasn't work out like it should have but I have many blessings in life much more important than money or career so I shake off those thoughts when they creep in.



Lovely sentiments, lovely to read, wishing you continued happiness and success!


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## AlbacoreA (6 Mar 2016)

Agreed. Always look to the positives.


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## SCurry (7 Mar 2016)

Leper said:


> You know SCurry, you're as near a clone of somebody I know who made the transition from the Private to the Public Service as a Clerical Officer.  She was outgoing, friendly, she could have made friends with even Hitler and Stalin, in a nutshell she is probably the most inoffensive person in the country. She did not know it for quite some time but she was systematically marginalized by her new female colleagues. This went on over several months.  Eventually, nobody would speak to her.  Her life was turned upside down.  They refused every co-operation with her.  Let's call her Mary (not her real name) a hardened trade unionist who could weed out any argument and seperate wrong from right.  Her work rate was good and her stamina would equal anyone's.
> 
> Mary approached each of her colleagues who smiled back sarcastically and would not engage on what was happening.  She approached her Line Manager and asked that an especial watch would be kept on happenings. She herself recorded everything on emails which she sent home immediately thereby having a time and date of what was going on. She knew of no reason why was was happening, was happening. Neither did her Line Manager.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure why we are down this route Leper? I can't recall making any statements that the CS will be a glorious land of milk and honey without any sort of issues, I'm not that naive. Are you venting some kind of personal issues as a proxy in this thread? 16 years on the bloody beginning hasn't faded a little? Everywhere has its problems I'm sure, the problem where I am now is no pay increases (no other benefits including pension provision) and being undervalued for what I do with no sign of change on the horizon hence I posted here to gather opinion on the merits of changing to the PS should the offer I am hoping to get materialise. 

Most people I know in the CS seem pretty content and I don't see any of them leaving. They seem to have a much better work life balance than many I know in the private sector who by and large do longer hours for sometimes less money. As the General Election seemed to show, most people outside of Dublin have not seen this fabled 'recovery' that the capital has so people are worried about their jobs (those that have one) still. 

If I was 18 years old I might be susceptible to a clique of bitter little female bullies but I have broad shoulder and thicker skin now and in short would not give a crap.

My aim with this thread was to figure out the financial and career pros and cons of moving and I have got lots of good feedback. Yours is just a horror story that could happen in nearly any office on the globe and has nothing to do with the CS really. I've been in 5 or 6 private sector jobs and seen bullying occur in some of them, it ain't confined to the CS believe me.


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## moneybox (7 Mar 2016)

Scurry - very true, plenty threads on here to do with workplace bullying. It can indeed happen anywhere.


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## Jumpstartdublin (7 Mar 2016)

Unsure how the cs is reduced to a significant discussion on workplace 'bullying'. Surely this accounts for a % of grievances in both public and private sector. Also, a job in cs presumably have much positivity and opportunity for would-be future employee.


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## Firefly (8 Mar 2016)

Hi SCurry,

Big decision! As you are currently working in IT it may be advisable to think long and hard about your skills. If these skills are technical and more importantly marketable, you may well do yourself a disservice in the medium / long term by moving into the role you mentioned as you will become more & more dependant on one employer and your skills will, over time become stale / obsolete. However, if the role is a match for what you are currently doing / where you want to go, then I think you could do a lot worse, particularly if there are not many employment opportunities where you live.

HTH

Firefly.


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## SCurry (9 Mar 2016)

Firefly said:


> Hi SCurry,
> 
> Big decision! As you are currently working in IT it may be advisable to think long and hard about your skills. If these skills are technical and more importantly marketable, you may well do yourself a disservice in the medium / long term by moving into the role you mentioned as you will become more & more dependant on one employer and your skills will, over time become stale / obsolete. However, if the role is a match for what you are currently doing / where you want to go, then I think you could do a lot worse, *particularly if there are not many employment opportunities where you live.*
> 
> ...



This is the crux of it for me Firefly. There ain't many opportunities where I live in IT. Its demoralising at times looking at jobs advertised and 95% of them are in Dublin. I get that's where almost all of the industry is (and its only getting worse) but not all of us can/want to live in Dublin for reasons well known. That said I don't feel as if I can only do IT or would be unhappy with a career change hence I went and did the EO competition. I also did the EO ICT comp and came 2nd on panel but I have been offered (wait for it, a role in Dublin). I'm top of the list of a role comes up in my region in this but I'm told the chances are pretty small as most of the CS IT is centralised to Dublin.  Thanks for the input.


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## Firefly (9 Mar 2016)

SCurry said:


> This is the crux of it for me Firefly. There ain't many opportunities where I live in IT. Its demoralising at times looking at jobs advertised and 95% of them are in Dublin. I get that's where almost all of the industry is (and its only getting worse) but not all of us can/want to live in Dublin for reasons well known. That said I don't feel as if I can only do IT or would be unhappy with a career change hence I went and did the EO competition. I also did the EO ICT comp and came 2nd on panel but I have been offered (wait for it, a role in Dublin). I'm top of the list of a role comes up in my region in this but I'm told the chances are pretty small as most of the CS IT is centralised to Dublin.  Thanks for the input.



You know best yourself by the sounds of it. All things considered it sounds like a good option to be fair. And don't mind Dublin, sure they know nothing up there!!!


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## SCurry (16 Mar 2016)

Have received call from PAS for final clearance stage (current employer reference) and once checked there is a vacancy for me in the Dept of Social Protection in Sligo, my local town. Assuming my current boss doesn't shaft me with the reference I have decided to make the change and keep my IT side work going for the time being anyway. Thanks to all who contributed to the thread


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## Páid (16 Mar 2016)

Best if luck with it. I hope it goes well for you.


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## Firefly (16 Mar 2016)

SCurry said:


> Have received call from PAS for final clearance stage (current employer reference) and once checked there is a vacancy for me in the Dept of Social Protection in Sligo, my local town. Assuming my current boss doesn't shaft me with the reference I have decided to make the change and keep my IT side work going for the time being anyway. Thanks to all who contributed to the thread




Congrats SCurry, really hope it works out well for you. Sligo is such a nice part of the country too, been there loads and actually heading up next week to watch some of the West of Ireland golf.


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## Jumpstartdublin (17 Mar 2016)

Delighted to hear your good news. Every good wish with the job.


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## cremeegg (17 Mar 2016)

Congratulations and good luck. Be sure to come back here and let us know how it goes.


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## Deiseblue (17 Mar 2016)

Best of luck , hope it all goes well


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## AlbacoreA (18 Mar 2016)

SCurry said:


> ...keep my IT side work going for the time being anyway. Thanks to all who contributed to the thread



You might want to test the water with side work. As some places might not allow it. At least not officially. Of course they can't refuse what you don't ask. Can be a conflict of interest. Public/Private.


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## Jon Snow (18 Mar 2016)

AlbacoreA said:


> You might want to test the water with side work. As some places might not allow it. At least not officially. Of course they can't refuse what you don't ask. Can be a conflict of interest. Public/Private.



How could having a small IT business on the side be a conflict of interest with working in a social welfare office?!

People who work in Revenue can't do accounts / tax returns. People who work in planning departments can't do planning applications. These are all common sense. But there is no general prohibition on having other sources of income.


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## AlbacoreA (18 Mar 2016)

Most places I have worked public or private have a clause in the contract either of prohibition or requiring permission, to do other work. Permission might not be given, and/or it can cause conflict in the minds of some people, even where none exists. I should have phrased it differently. Other income is different to other jobs. If you are in IT, contracting, or freelancing in some other area, its normal to do lots of different jobs often concurrently. That mindset isn't always common in other sectors. 

I simply meant be mindful.


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## Páid (21 Mar 2016)

AlbacoreA said:


> You might want to test the water with side work. As some places might not allow it. At least not officially. Of course they can't refuse what you don't ask. Can be a conflict of interest. Public/Private.



You just need to declare it to your HR unit - http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/Codes-of-Conduct/Civil-Servants/Civil-Service-Code-of-Standards.pdf


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## Purple (21 Mar 2016)

Páid said:


> You just need to declare it to your HR unit - http://www.sipo.gov.ie/en/Codes-of-Conduct/Civil-Servants/Civil-Service-Code-of-Standards.pdf


Nothing about competence in there though!


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## SCurry (21 Mar 2016)

Thanks folks. I spoke to a few people over the weekend who had a mix of opinions between say nothing and tell them it'll be grand. In my current job I told them  as I'd rather have everything out in the open. There's obviously no conflict and even less so if I go to the CS (its just a few local small businesses and schools, PC maintenance and web design etc). Think I'll go with the open and honest route again as it's not worth the hassle for a few grand otherwise. I've been declaring it and paying income tax on it also so there's no clandestine about it.


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## SCurry (21 Mar 2016)

Firefly said:


> Congrats SCurry, really hope it works out well for you. Sligo is such a nice part of the country too, been there loads and actually heading up next week to watch some of the West of Ireland golf.


Yes beautiful part of the world for sure, even more so these past few days with the weather!


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## Páid (21 Mar 2016)

Purple said:


> Nothing about competence in there though!



The OP was asking about conflicts of interest.

Or are you just having a feeble attempt at bashing the civil service?


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## Purple (21 Mar 2016)

Páid said:


> The OP was asking about conflicts of interest.
> 
> Or are you just having a feeble attempt at bashing the civil service?


It was a joke. Did you miss the  ?


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## SCurry (3 May 2016)

Update: In the CS now a few weeks. Initial impressions are I have probably made a mistake so I'm struggling. Pretty unhappy. It's grand but dull. Thought it through as much as I could but just cannot get adjusted. Maybe it'll change, certainly hope so.


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## Leo (3 May 2016)

I'd certainly give it more time before deciding. It can often take time for others to recognise what you're capable of so that you can take on more challenging or engaging work. Talk to your manager.


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## cremeegg (3 May 2016)

Come on, you made a big decision, don't review it so quickly. Wait at least 6 months before asking yourself if it was the right decision.


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## SCurry (3 May 2016)

I will be yes, no choice! Just finding the transition more difficult than I anticipated.


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## Jumpstartdublin (3 May 2016)

Stick with it. What particular issues are you finding difficult. Granted it's a totally different work environment and all that to survive


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## SCurry (4 May 2016)

Think it's just been more different than I thought it would be. Granted I'm only in over a month. I'm going to give it enough time and not press panic but I have possibly spent too long in IT private sector to be adjusted. In the past few years I have given lots of thought to doing what I think I would really love which is teaching (late vocation in mid 30s granted but it's been on my mind for years now). I'm now in a place where I could possibly take a career break to pursue it via Hibernia. My head has been turned that way now and I might just go for it. Have to repeat hons Irish first but I could pull it off I think. If IT and the CS ain't for me then I might have to follow the dream. Love working with kids but I didn't realise it until I was into my working life. It's nagging me ever since. Sorry I'm just thinking out loud!


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## Deiseblue (4 May 2016)

Something else to contemplate , the Irish Times is reporting that the salary cuts for entrants to the Public Service post 2012 are set to be reversed.
Hopefully you will see a salary increase


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## Jazz01 (4 May 2016)

SCurry said:


> If IT and the CS ain't for me then I might have to follow the dream. Love working with kids


Working as a teacher might not all be what it's cracked up to be BUT don't give up on the dream.

As you are in IT, have a look at the "coderdojo" program that is being run across Ireland, you could start one up or help out at one. There are also a lot of other programs you can get involved in that helps kids at primary / secondary school level, "STEPS" is the name of another one and I'm sure there are loads more. I used to do a program called Junior Achievement - found it fantastic, did it for a number of years in many different primary schools. Not too sure if that is run still, or if it's developed into something else now.

Just to say "Junior Achievement" is still being run.


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## SCurry (4 May 2016)

Yea when I was in a previous job there was a request for staff to participate in Junior Achievement. I was the only one in IT to have any interest and jumped at it. Did it for a few years in a row. Loved it. That's 10 years ago now but it wasn't until the last few years that the notion to go back and actually become a teacher started getting stronger but I tried ignoring it because of my circumstances, young family etc. Part of the problem I suppose was that I would have to leave my (old) job to go on the teaching practice part of the course. There might be a door open for me now in the CS to take unpaid leave or a career break and have a go at this. If I failed at least I'd have a decent job to go back to. I know teaching is no bed of roses either and jobs aren't plentiful at the moment. That said apparently male NS teachers (allied to a sporting and IT background) are getting very rare and that might give me an advantage. I was told before my a teaching friend it would but it would but I'm getting ahead of myself there a bit.

God I'm a restless soul but better to light a candle than curse the dark.


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## tallpaul (6 May 2016)

A career break will not be an option for you for a while unfortunately. First of all you will have your probation to complete. Then as a new Civil Servant you will only be able to take a career break equal in duration to your length of service e.g. two years' service will enable a two year career break. This stops people joining and one day later taking a five-year career break!!!

Unpaid leave will also be tricky if you are only in a place a wet week...


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## SCurry (7 May 2016)

Right. Pretty devastating news to be honest. I'm screwed.


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## SCurry (19 May 2016)

Probably an over-reaction my last post. Have settled into the CS since a bit better and going to give it a right go. Was just a bit down and panicked a few weeks in as felt I had made a mistake but my mindset has changed thankfully


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## Purple (23 May 2016)

SCurry said:


> Probably an over-reaction my last post. Have settled into the CS since a bit better and going to give it a right go. Was just a bit down and panicked a few weeks in as felt I had made a mistake but my mindset has changed thankfully


Institutionalised already, eh?


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## SCurry (24 May 2016)

Purple said:


> Institutionalised already, eh?



Nah more a case of becoming a realist and seeing the glass as half full. I would be gambling an awful lot. Sometimes you have to count your blessings.


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## Leper (25 May 2016)

Some here might remember that some time ago I pointed out some of the possible pitfalls of joining the Public Sector.  Changing jobs is hardly ever an easy process unless you had been previously looking at immediate redundancy blankly in the face. It is only normal that SCurry would face some hurdles on his journey.  

SCurry appears to be quite an achiever and I am sure he will be a good addition to his Department. He brings some experience and business know-how to his new job.  Will he be allowed to use all his hard earned skills though? Probably not, but he didn't come to the table empty-handed and I have no doubt he will make his new job his own.

On another level, he appears to have his priorities right with family commitments, location, job security etc.  Will he become institutionalised? Probably, but this does not have to be a bad thing.

I'm glad SCurry made the move and it is working for him.  Perhaps he can keep us informed of some of his experiences since the move? It would go a long way to assembling or disassembling the pertained reality of working in the Public Service.


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## Cervelo (25 May 2016)

That's a Dr Phil type summary


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