# Feedback from owners of foreign holiday property.



## vincentv (22 Mar 2018)

As knock on from discussion on other thread - would be interested in survey from owners of a foreign holiday properties.

NOT interested in an investment property, the "bought an apartment in CapeVerde but never saw it"....not for this thread. More of a lifestyle choice purchase/investment.

Looking for feedback from this type of profile, or a version of:
Bought a holiday home 5/10/20 years ago in France/Spain/Portugal/Italy - holidayed there with family for a few years - now near retirement planning to live there 6 months a year.

Would be interested to hear:

*Where/When did you buy property?

How much did it cost? What is property value now?

How did you finance purchase?

How did you choose property?

Did/Do you rent it out when not in use yourself?

Was managing the home through the years a big task?

Were local tax's/rates more expensive than you had predicted?

Did/Do you feel restricted going to same location year after year for holidays?

Did/Do you let family/friends stay in your property?



Overall positive or negative - are you glad looking back you bought the foreign property, would you recommend to someone who is interested in making this lifestyle choice decision/purchase?*



Thanks in advance for any feedback.


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## amtc (22 Mar 2018)

My aunt bought a three bedroom property in Nice some years ago. Her husband had lived for some years in Paris. I've no idea about the financials but we (close family) have all holidayed in it. They made an effort to learn French and go to local markets and shops. 

The one thing I would say is that the airline flight times and schedules greatly restricted when they could use it.


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## Leper (22 Mar 2018)

*Where/When did you buy property?                                                                       Spain, 2004

How much did it cost? What is property value now?                                              Too Much; Too Little. I ain't tellin'

How did you finance purchase?                                                                               Life Savings

How did you choose property?                                                                 Observed properties over several holiday years

Did/Do you rent it out when not in use yourself?                                                    Yes

Was managing the home through the years a big task?                                          No

Were local tax's/rates more expensive than you had predicted?                           Yes

Did/Do you feel restricted going to same location year after year for holidays?   No

Did/Do you let family/friends stay in your property?                                              Yes*


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## gnf_ireland (22 Mar 2018)

@Leper  can I follow up my asking what stage in your life you were at when you bought the property? How far from retirement and what ages were the kids if any?  I fully see this as a very good option when kids are in teens or a bit older and person starting to make plans towards retirement, but wondering does it make as much sense 10 or so years before then...


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## Leper (23 Mar 2018)

I retired this year. Our kids are all married or in relationships. If I may pry:- what are the reasons for your post? Are you thinking of investing abroad? The one question you did not ask:-

If you could turn back the clock would you now buy a holiday home abroad?
The Answer and Read my Lips:- Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


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## DeeKie (23 Mar 2018)

Leper said:


> I retired this year. Our kids are all married or in relationships. If I may pry:- what are the reasons for your post? Are you thinking of investing abroad? The one question you did not ask:-
> 
> If you could turn back the clock would you now buy a holiday home abroad?
> The Answer and Read my Lips:- Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


Why no?


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## Gordon Gekko (23 Mar 2018)

I don’t think I’d buy a home abroad. I already have an overseas property but it’s more of an investment that I’m in the process of exiting. My jaundiced view stems largely from observing my parents, their friends, and my clients. My parents spent quite a bit on their place. The service charges are material, as are the local taxes etc. The investment return that’s foregone on the capital cost of the property plus its carrying costs would buy you some serious long-term lets in nice properties all over the world.


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## vincentv (23 Mar 2018)

Leper - you missed the last question:
*Overall positive or negative - are you glad looking back you bought the foreign property, would you recommend to someone who is interested in making this lifestyle choice decision/purchase?*


Looks like a negative for you - can you expand with some details of why no.


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## Leo (23 Mar 2018)

vincentv said:


> Leper - you missed the last question:





Leper said:


> what are the reasons for your post?



You missed that question...want to expand?


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## vincentv (23 Mar 2018)

>Leper to OP
What are the reasons for your post? Are you thinking of investing abroad?

Yes I'm thinking about it. Not presently, not in a financial position to pursue it now anyway. 
I'm 45 years old, in about 6 years time kids will be finished collage - maybe look into it then, but I'm interested to hear from people who have gone down that road already. And now looking back are they glad or regret what they did.

Reason for starting this thread is follow on from a money makeover thread, on the side we were discussing foreign property and Alistair give an interesting positive summary:

*************
My wife and I purchased a holiday home about 12 years ago. While not particularly cheap to run, it has been the best lifestyle investment we have made. Thanks to Ryanair mainly, it has been possible to "nip" down for long weekends off season and to enjoy multiple visits over the hotter summer months. 

Very important to get to know the area before purchasing as you will probably retain the property for 5 years + at a minimum.
Kids and their needs are also a significant factor when purchasing. While adults may be happy to laze and potter about on a regular basis, kids / young adults will get bored and will want to be able to get to the beach or local entertainment area under their own steam.
If you plan to rent out the property in order to have it contribute towards its upkeep, then you will need a reliable English speaking locally based property manager as well as an accountant as you will have to perform a local tax return annually as well as an Irish one net of any locally paid taxes. A foreign property needs to be lived in and used for all kinds of maintenance reasons, so I would recommend you factor in part rental into any decision making. We have also considered rental income as a contribution to local tax obligations and maintenance fund which has worked out well for us. 

Our experience of the French property market is that prices are extremely stable and do not tend to fluctuate. Therefore it would be extremely unwise to consider capital growth in the future based on foreign property prices today. While there are many cheap properties to purchase (in France at least), if choosing to rent out a property to short term holiday makers, then you will need to ensure you purchase in a reasonably well known town or beach resort. Holiday homes purchase for little money that are based in remote hamlets or small villages will be far more difficult to rent.

While the affordability of a foreign holiday home was most definitely a factor for us, the economics fade into the background when you are heading for the ferry or arrive at the car rental desk. The freedom and flexibility offered as well as "knowing" the area you are going to (restaurants / bars etc) without having to spend the 1st week or 2 acquainting yourself with a new resort is very rewarding. 

Additionally, we find that we can use house swap websites to exchange 2 weeks in our holiday home for two weeks elsewhere and although we've only done this a couple of times, it has worked out great.
*********




Would good to get a few more opinions and see if overall positive or negative wins.....


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## Gordon Gekko (23 Mar 2018)

I think that Air BnB / long-term lets are transformational.

My own approach (hopefully) will be to undertake long-term lets in different places around the world, but buy somewhere once I get to a point where comfort and ease become the priorities. But, and this will be an important point, sizing/scale are key. Under no circumstances will I tie too much resources into an overseas property.


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## Leper (23 Mar 2018)

Surprisingly, quite a bit of interest in this thread. I don't know anybody who would not like to own a holiday home in sunnier climes. I bought two, sold one and still have the other. In some of my previous posts regarding purchase of holiday homes abroad, I put down truthful markers as to why not to buy. I based these on the recession period where many like me had large amounts of money tied up in foreign investment seeking to live the dream in future retirement and perhaps make a few bob along the way. Anybody who bought say since 2004 to 2012 is probably still working at a loss from what was the purchase price then to what might be the selling price now. Even foreign real estate agents have been unable to hide the losses their patrons still have on hands. Let's face it, property in Spain will never reach the dizzy heights of price it did back in 2006. I've made up some of the loss through renting out the holiday home, but I never envisaged chasing losses fourteen years ago.

Things have changed a bit, but I never feel quite secure that I could sell anytime or even regain to any great extent the losses. So do you hold on to the property and hope that there will some kind of property boom again in Spain? There is so much coastal property for sale in Spain that that only remains a small hope (probably no hope) in the greater scheme of things. 

OK, cut out the facts Lep and put forward the reasons to purchase a holiday home say in Spain.
1. Coastal property prices bottomed out about two years ago with perhaps 5% increase since in property that could be sold. So, if you are buying, now is a good time.
2. Somebody wants to invest in something that probably will never decrease in value, then I reckon a holiday home in Spain is something good to invest in now.
3. We would all like a place to bring the family to where sunshine is guaranteed and the cost of living is cheaper. Coastal Spain is good in this respect.
4. The family that holidays together will stay together - Right? Hmmmmmmmm!

Now for the reasons against:-
1. Brexit.
2. Brexit.
3. Brexit
4. It is not easy maintaining a holiday home abroad. You are at the mercy of Spanish banks. Local Taxes just keep getting dearer and dearer. Maintenance is a problem. Holiday homes must be cleaned, updated. Furniture must be replaced. Airconditioning must be serviced. Utility charges are ongoing. Break ins can be a nightmare. Squatters inhabit Spain too. At the end of five years you are beginning to show some small income. If the Spanish Revenue Commissioners don't get you, the Irish Revenue Commissioners will. That's their job and both are good at what they do. Write down all you spend against income and you will see you are at a bigger loss than you thought you ever would. Just when you thought you could lose no more, you must do a recce trip. Airfares, car rental, transfers cost more now than ever. Suddenly, living the dream can become a living nightmare.

I am only trying to be truthful and prevent some innocent dreamer from gambling at dangerous higher stakes than a compulsive gambler. I should point out that I am one of the lucky ones inasmuch as I have kind of made the whole idea work. The word "lucky" is important here. It could have all gone so wrong.

Gordon Gekko (above) has given some shrewd advice. Why purchase at high stakes when you can rent longterm off season at low stakes? (You can rent a 2 bedroom low-rise apartment centrally located for around €700.00 per month off season). So you spend €700 + Electricity Charge and you are still living a whole month in the off season sun while the landlord pays substantially more on his/her monthly mortgage. Renting you don't have the pain and you can have most of the gain.

Apologies for being so long-winded; I could keep writing on the subject forever.


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## Alistair (23 Mar 2018)

*Where/When did you buy property?
2007 / France

How much did it cost? What is property value now?
EUR 200K + Agents Fee + Taxes

How did you finance purchase?
Remortgaged against property Ireland

How did you choose property?
5+ previous trips to France to various areas of interest always with a view to purchase. Discounted southern France as overpriced, too populous, dependency on air travel routes which change seasonally, higher level of crime and not particularly child friendly.
Eventually discounted Brittany & Normandy due to short sunny season.
Settled on southern Loire on west coast due to microclimate (avg 2,660 sun shine hours per year), clean and extensive beaches, reasonable property prices, < 5 hours from 3 x ferry ports, serviced by multiple airports from Ireland.
Engaged a sales agent, viewed multiple properties.  Old and characterful = cold/damp/high maintenance.  Chose renovated property with pool.

Did/Do you rent it out when not in use yourself?
No for the first number of years as we used it for significant amounts of time ourselves compliments of parental leave.  Having exhausted parental leave allowances, and after 8 or 9 years of our property maintenance person "encouraging" us to rent it out, we have done so for the past 2 years very successfully.

Was managing the home through the years a big task?
In our experience it was important to engage the right maintenance person who also provides a key holder facility.  Piece of mind to check the property during winter if it gets a bit blowy.  With the right maintenance person there was complete piece of mind for us.

Were local tax's/rates more expensive than you had predicted?
Less than expected to be honest.  A pleasant surprise was that our refuse collection (2 x times per week) is included in our local tax payment and in addition we receive a complete breakdown of where the taxes are spent locally which all goes into improving our direct locale.

Did/Do you feel restricted going to same location year after year for holidays?
Nope.  We have gone elsewhere just by doing a property exchange.  Quick, easy, hassle free.

Did/Do you let family/friends stay in your property?
Yes, we encourage our friends and family to use... prefer to have the property "breathe" when used.

*


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## noproblem (23 Mar 2018)

My strong advice to anyone buying a holiday home abroad would be threefold.
1). Ease, certainty and duration of flights.
2). Legal title deeds.
3). Good management of the place.

While the 1st 2 speak for themselves, No 3 is very important and without it you'll have no idea what's happening. On top of all that, you will need pounds shillings and pence. Enjoy and good luck, call that No 4 if you want, you'll need it.


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## Alistair (23 Mar 2018)

Based on our experience, I think a holiday home is a lifestyle investment, not a speculative financial investment.  
Its possible to break even on the mortgage/ maintenance costs if you are prepared to (a) spend enough to purchase the correct property i.e. not cheap and cheerful, buy desirability in the right location (b) engage the right property maintenance person (c) engage the right key holder (d) engage the right holiday letting agency (avoid the "bigger" ones, go independent) (e) advertise wisely (f) meet and establish relationships with local trades people (g) engage a local accountant.

You need to really get to know the area in advance, both on and off season.  Research the history of the area i.e. past floodings, intended developments etc.  Anything that may adversely impact the value of your property in the future.  Also there are cost effective ways to purchase to minimise additional costs.  Research is very important.  Also, the real estate agent works for you, not the seller so that dynamic is very different to Ireland.  You need to get your agent to work for you.

The main difference between long term lets and owning a property is that a holiday home that is owned, becomes a home away from home and allows you the freedom to make it yours rather than stumping up 3 months deposits, scheduling agent inspections periodically, and not having the freedom to make any adjustments to the property (painting etc.).  But, to each their own i suppose.


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## gnf_ireland (24 Mar 2018)

Leper said:


> The Answer and Read my Lips:- Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo





Leper said:


> I don't know anybody who would not like to own a holiday home in sunnier climes. I





Leper said:


> It is not easy maintaining a holiday home abroad. You are at the mercy of Spanish banks. Local Taxes just keep getting dearer and dearer. Maintenance is a problem. Holiday homes must be cleaned, updated. Furniture must be replaced. Airconditioning must be serviced. Utility charges are ongoing. Break ins can be a nightmare. Squatters inhabit Spain too. At the end of five years you are beginning to show some small income. If the Spanish Revenue Commissioners don't get you, the Irish Revenue Commissioners will. That's their job and both are good at what they do. Write down all you spend against income and you will see you are at a bigger loss than you thought you ever would. Just when you thought you could lose no more, you must do a recce trip. Airfares, car rental, transfers cost more now than ever. Suddenly, living the dream can become a living nightmare.


@Leper I understand the comments above, but was any of the items you listed above really a surprise when you purchased the place? I would be very surprised if you had not researched things like the local taxes, maintenance fees etc, and also understand things needs to be serviced and replaced, the houses need to be cleaned etc. Break In's and squatters are a problem everywhere, and any holiday home has a risk of this as it has a higher level of  unoccupancy.

From reading your post, I think the root cause for the negativity towards them is the fall in price rather than anything else. Maybe I am wrong here, but this is what I am reading into it. The other stuff, I would imagine, would have been considered to a reasonable degree before the place was purchased - although may have been higher than expected.





Gordon Gekko said:


> The investment return that’s foregone on the capital cost of the property plus its carrying costs would buy you some serious long-term lets in nice properties all over the world.





Gordon Gekko said:


> My own approach (hopefully) will be to undertake long-term lets in different places around the world, but buy somewhere once I get to a point where comfort and ease become the priorities. But, and this will be an important point, sizing/scale are key.


From a lifestyle point of view, I fully understand the long term lets (during off peak periods) in different places around the world. Of course this makes perfect sense if someone is really into travelling and wants to experience the world. I also fully understand that things change when comfort & ease become a priority - again makes perfect sense.

What I am [personally] interested in is whether it makes any sense to considered one for school going families. My eldest is in Junior Infants and my youngest is starting in September. During the primary school years, the kids have simple enough requirements for holidays - other kids to play with, a pool, access to a beach and as they get a bit older access to water parks etc. The teenage years may be a little bit trickier, but once we get out of those few years, the place could be used by the kids themselves (and their friends), as well as ourselves - who will be in our late 50's at that stage and hopefully able to pop down for long weekends etc, as we gear up to towards retirement.

With school going kids, the discussion on off-peak is not as relevant as we are constrained to school holidays by enlarge (with very few exceptions). All use (and rental) would predominantly be peak usage, where rental would probably be around 1200-1500 a week.

I will look at a hypothetical scenario in the next post and people can crucify it as they see fit


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## gnf_ireland (24 Mar 2018)

**Numbers are fictional so if unrealistic, please let me know**

Buy a place for around 250,000 on coastal Spain _(no clue on costs either I will add)_ - 75k deposit and mortgage of 175,000 @ 3% [either in Spain or remortgage house here]. Assume opportunity cost of 75k is 1%. Lets say cost of maintaining the property per year is 3k (no idea, so just a guess). That works out at the annual cost associated to the place is 9,000 per year [750+5250+3000]

Lets say you could take in 6k in lettings (after fees) => between June, 4 weeks of the summer (mid July to mid-August), cheap 3 month Sept to Nov and between Christmas and February midterm. Assume this would not incur taxes as costs are higher than this.

This leaves the place free from January (excluding Feb midterm) to start June (over Easter, May mid-term and June BH weekend), and also free for 1st 2 weeks in July and last 2 weeks in August before going back to school.
If we were to use it say - 1 week at Easter, 1 week in May, 2 weeks at start of July and 1 week at the end of August => 5 weeks of peak usage.
The place is then free for use by friends/family not under the school holiday calendar during the non-peak times from January to June - so plenty of time for them to use it and not complain  

This would work out at roughly 600 a week in costs for the 5 weeks of usage (9k-6k rental). This would not be bad for peak usage

If we wanted a change of location for a bit, we could always consider a house swap to somewhere else in one of the peak periods. In general kids are happy to go to the same place on the assumption their needs are met there. We keep getting asked when are we going back to Portugal (went to the same place for the last 3 years there)

I appreciate this does not cover the payments made against the capital of the mortgage, but the higher assumption would be this would be an investment into an asset and as @Leper says above, now is not a bad time to purchase in the general cycle of things. Over a longer term, this would be treated as a second home rather than an investment asset. We are lucky enough to have purchased our primary residence in 2011 (at the bottom of the cycle) so have had fantastic capital appreciation in that.


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## Grizzly (24 Mar 2018)

I have the funds to purchase a property home abroad but decided not to.

This year we will holiday in Portugal, China, Spain, France, Holland, Spain. Leaving out China we will spend about €500 per week on rentals as we will be travelling in the shoulder months. So about €2500 spent on rentals so far.

We are considering two other locations, one for a week and one for two weeks that might increase the spend by about another €1500. Bringing our total spend to €4000. We will stay in rental apartments and hotels. 

We fund these holidays from dividend income and interest received.

We have been doing this for about 12 years now visiting different locations/countries in Europe.

Of all the places we have visited there are three locations where we were tempted to purchase. Two locations one in Majorca and one in Ibiza are not serviced by flights during the winter. The other in the Valencia/Alicante region is easier to access. We may take a month in this region this November/December. A front line apartment will cost €1100 for the month.

We have already started planning our 2019 destinations also. These include Austria, Italy, Portugal, Spain.

If we purchased a holiday home I would still have the need to travel to other places. We have thought of purchasing near a Spanish airport and using it as a hub to travel from.  If we did purchase it would be in the names of one of our adult children.

We took early retirement. Best thing we ever did. We have seen lots of places. We are at the age where we are hopeful of having another 10 years of similar travel left in us. Maybe as we get older we will need a base to spend the winter and let our children deal with all the maintenance and other issues associated with an overseas property. We will just turn up and relax.

It is still on the cards.


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## dishwasher (24 Mar 2018)

My dad bought in the first wave of holiday home ownership in the costa Del sol in the early 80s. Not villa but small town house in development of a golf course, 15 mins drive inland from the coast. 5 kids at that stage aged under 12.  

Sounds good in theory but every single holiday in this place without air con, in what was effectively an English retirement village, 5 kids squashed into a tiny white fiat rental car to go anywhere.  All the kids ended up hating in and Would far rather have spent teenage summers at home.

Also dad felt we'd to stay extra long to get use of the place. I remember one year we were there for 6 weeks in a heatwave 40 degreeswith just our Mum and he went home after 3 weeks to go back to work. 

Also very strong memories of dad arguing with complex managers, who were supposedly renting it but money didn't materialise. 

Have the fun adventure of going to the Spanish DIY shop in the rental car and then painting the balcony in the searing heat or dad trying to do maintance with no tools with associated cursing and swearing. 

Also seeing my mother spending the first 2 days of her holidays sweeping, getting rid of the dust, dealing with laundry and then cooking dinners in a tiny kitchen in the baking heat. 

As adults and even with our own families - parents offering us use of the place for free and nobody ever went, so sick of it we were.

As years go on and dad's health deteriorated and then Mum taking him there to try to deal with whatever issues that kept coming up (rent/maintence) and ultimately then them staying in a hotel as just too much work to stay in the place themselves and he couldn't manage the steps.

He died at the end of 2015 and we've had the hell of trying to sell the place and dealing with solicitor, electricity company, estate agent and god know how many other bits of Spanish bureaucracy. Eventually sold about 2 months ago with - get this - 25% in estate agency and solicitors fees.


I'm now 45 and hell would freeze over before I'd buy a holiday home. It's just bliss to have a genuine holiday in somewhere different every year.


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## gnf_ireland (24 Mar 2018)

Grizzly said:


> We took early retirement. Best thing we ever did. We have seen lots of places. We are at the age where we are hopeful of having another 10 years of similar travel left in us. Maybe as we get older we will need a base to spend the winter and let our children deal with all the maintenance and other issues associated with an overseas property. We will just turn up and relax.



I think this is key and aligns to what @Gordon Gekko  is talking about - which as I said makes perfect sense at this stage in life. And I 100% support everything you say above on the 'wandering' lifestyle approach in the early retirement/early years of retirement scenario. The later retirement years are a different story

As I said, I am particularly (and selfishly) interested in people with school going kids who have their needs in mind and are travelling at peak times for the next decade or so


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## Grizzly (24 Mar 2018)

We owned a mobile home in Brittas Bay in the 90's. It was costly. At the time, €2k a year in fees.

At weekends we felt we had to go there to get our value from it. Our teenage children did not want to be there. The action was back in Dublin.

The weather was unpredictable. We ended up using it less and less. In the end we sold it.

I sometimes miss it. My then teenage children are now adults with their own kids and would probably love it now.

Ownership is the problem. It is easier just to book a hotel for a few nights away, costing less than €200 whenever we get the urge for a break in Ireland.


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## Gordon Gekko (24 Mar 2018)

With the advent of better domestic hotels and cheap overseas flights, the flexibility to go to different places cannot be underestimated.


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## Leper (24 Mar 2018)

gnf_ireland said:


> @Leper sk of this as it has a higher level of  unoccupancy.
> 
> From reading your post, I think the root cause for the negativity towards them is the fall in price rather than anything else. Maybe I am wrong here, but this is what I am reading into it. The other stuff, I would imagine, would have been considered to a reasonable degree before the place was purchased - although may have been higher than expected.



Hi Gnf, you can bet your rootin' tootin' bottom dollar that you are 100% correct.

I invested, I did not gain what I thought I would and lost more than I ever thought possible. **it happens, Lepers are not exempt. And unlike our banks I don't expect anybody to bail me out.

Anybody who knows me from my posts here are aware that I post as truthfully as possible. There are those who for some reason or other couldn't tell the truth if they had taken truth **************************.

If I were having a pint with you and discussing the subject whether your kids are school-going or not or not matter how far forward you were planning your retirement, I would not recommend buying a holiday home abroad. But, if you have the reddies to spend, then off you go . . . . . Spain will soak them all up.

Somebody mentioned getting €1200 per week rental in peak times. A centrally located 2 bedroom low rise apartment on the Costas should cost you no more than €650.00 per week during peak season. And that's for a top-of-the-range apartment two minutes walk from the beach, restaurants, and a real supermarket.


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## gnf_ireland (25 Mar 2018)

Leper said:


> I invested, I did not gain what I thought I would and lost more than I ever thought possible. **it happens, Lepers are not exempt. And unlike our banks I don't expect anybody to bail me out.


I guess that is key and the expectation around investment versus lifestyle decision. That said, its very hard to leave an asset unused at times which you could have people renting it, offsetting the costs associated to it



Leper said:


> If I were having a pint with you and discussing the subject whether your kids are school-going or not or not matter how far forward you were planning your retirement, I would not recommend buying a holiday home abroad.


Might take you up on that at some stage in the future - but for now we have kind of agreed that its not really for us at the moment. We don't want an 'investment per se' and we would not use it enough in the early years not to try rent it out. But if we go down that route, we feel its neither an investment or a holiday home - so best not to bother. 

We also have done some sort of projection on use, and it would be poor enough in general. We are 'travellers' by nature and love going to new and different places, and want the kids to experience this to a degree especially as they get older. We think in ~15 years would be when we would start to get some proper use out of a place like this, but who knows  the best location at that stage. Spain may be over-developed and might be better suited to head to Croatia or where ever. Since my crystal ball is broken - we decided its best leave it for now.


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## Leper (2 Apr 2018)

I can see by the tone of some of the posts here that investing in property abroad is a viable alternative to using the money here. I don't have any qualifications in the field of investment, commerce, accountancy etc. But, if you are seriously looking  at purchasing a foreign property here is my advice (and at no charge whatsoever):- Find an online real estate agent selling property where you wish to buy. Follow the agent's ad online and see (a) How long the property is on the market (b) What the asking price is. Reduce the asking price by around 5% and you have an idea of what price people are willing to pay.


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## DeclanDublin (2 Apr 2018)

I'm actively looking at a fairly cheap two-bed townhouse in the Costas. I have a house in Dublin which I intend to let as a house share, and I plan to live in Spain for lengthy periods. It's cheap at around 70K, I guesstimate that the end costs will be in the order of just under 80 K and most of my time will be spent in fairly decent weather. The house share at home will cover the small mortgage, as well as allowing for maintenance, and I don't intend to let the Spanish property.  For me, it is a personal decision. I don't have strong connections in  Ireland, a friend already has a place there and we plan to move around the same time, so it is a lifestyle choice more than anything.


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## Leper (2 Apr 2018)

Hi Declan, I wish you the best of luck with your decision. I am not an expert though and you are paying €80K for a property + €10K on expenses. You will probably never get your money back if you re-sell. I know that is not an issue with you at the moment. But, as long as you are happy with your decision is all that matters.


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## monagt (2 Apr 2018)

DeclanDublin said:


> I'm actively looking at a fairly cheap two-bed townhouse in the Costas. I have a house in Dublin which I intend to let as a house share, and I plan to live in Spain for lengthy periods. It's cheap at around 70K, I guesstimate that the end costs will be in the order of just under 80 K and most of my time will be spent in fairly decent weather. The house share at home will cover the small mortgage, as well as allowing for maintenance, and I don't intend to let the Spanish property.  For me, it is a personal decision. I don't have strong connections in  Ireland, a friend already has a place there and we plan to move around the same time, so it is a lifestyle choice more than anything.



Where in Torrevieja (I hope NOT near the Lakes) ?

You have read the previous posts on holiday homes (where I advised "don't do it") and going ahead so good luck with your decision.


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## DeclanDublin (2 Apr 2018)

monagt said:


> Where in Torrevieja (I hope NOT near the Lakes) ?
> 
> You have read the previous posts on holiday homes (where I advised "don't do it") and going ahead so good luck with your decision.


 
Near the town and the Habenares  (probably misspelled!) . I didn't see you previous post Monagt, can you link to it?


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## Laramie (3 Apr 2018)

monagt said:


> Where in Torrevieja (I hope NOT near the Lakes) ?



What's wrong with the lakes?........Mosquitoes or.......


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## Slim (3 Apr 2018)

The problem with the lakes area is not mozzies as the lakes are salty but rather the general overdevelopment in the Torrevieja area generally, much of which is concentrated at the lakes. DeclanIndublin has made up his mind but would do well to pay heed to Leper and others who caution against purchasing in that area.

My 2c worth would be to advise renting long term first for a couple of years so you get to know the area and become familiar with the true prices in the area. Overall, it's a nice idea and one we might all share from time to time.


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## monagt (3 Apr 2018)

Del


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## DeclanDublin (3 Apr 2018)

Thanks Monagt & Slim, I'll bear all that in mind. The place I'm looking at is in Torreta II. It is an old white house


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## Sophrosyne (3 Apr 2018)

Just to add, if Spain is your choice then factor in the lower cost of living.

How much you will save will depend on how long you stay there each year.

I also think that, wherever you decide to buy, you need to like the country.

Try to learn the language and appreciate the culture.


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## Leper (4 Apr 2018)

Some nice advice there from Sophrosyne regarding Spain. But, be mindful that many Spaniards regard foreign owners of Spanish property as those responsible for the higher cost of homes for them. I can confirm that some Spaniards  look on Los Blancos (that's the Brits and us) with some form of contempt who won't learn some Spanish and adapt to their ways. 

I love off season Spain when Los Blancos are screaming "Oi, wuy are yew closing this supermarket now?" "Don't yew fink it's time to end this siesta crap?" One thing (from living in Spain) is that you must realize quickly that the Spaniards do what they've done for thousands of years and they won't change. Incidentally, I love the purchasers of property there (i.e. most of us) looking for the Real Spain and then complaining at the unavailability of anything during siesta. Like what happened here we expect the Spaniards in Spain to become more Irish than the Irish themselves.


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## Alistair (12 Apr 2018)

As advised in a previous posting, we've owned a holiday home in France for the past number of years which has worked out very well for us.  I've read with interest the various views and in particular the benefits of a hotel holiday where one has the luxury of leaving after 2 weeks care free.

Recently, we took ourselves and our two kids on holiday and stayed in hotels for about 16 days.  While we have on occasion, previously used property-exchange sites in the past to travel beyond France, this was our first significant stay in hotel accommodation in many years.  It was interesting to compare holidaying in our holiday home versus the hotel holiday experience. 

My observation of the main differences are as follows:
Other people: 
My intention is not to offend or in any way come across as pretentious, however, the 4* hotel we stayed in was busy.  I know it is an obvious point, but the main difference in this hotel holiday experience was having to become used to sharing one's space with lots of other folks when using hotel amenities.  Boy does this take getting used to again.  The freedom and benefit offered by having one's own space in a private holiday home quickly became apparent and was not something I had actively expected.  I now have far more awareness and appreciation for this factor.

Schedules - Your time is not your own
We opted for a half-board type of package.  Quite early on, we found this very restrictive and in hindsight it was a poor decision on our part.  Breakfast and evening meals were at a set time and was an ugly feeding frenzy, almost trough-like.   We found the evening meal time slots very restrictive as we were clock watching a bit early on to ensure we were back at the hotel at the correct times.  Additionally, the menu was unappealing and we ended up eating out every pretty much every evening which was expensive and a quite frankly a nuisance having to make reservations for specific times etc.  Comparatively, a holiday home allows the freedom to eat when you want and to eat outside enjoying the evening sunshine or to have an impromptu BBQ.  Again, not something we had considered until we missed it. 

Pool times were restrictive.  The hotel also had a public gym which facilitated lane swimming each evening for members.  The times were awkward as kids only want to go and play in the pool when it suits them.  By comparison, there is a pool with our holiday home so the kids (and friends) are in and out as they please all day and evening.  Please note that almost every holiday home worth its salt has a pool in France so its considered standard. 

Sleep:
In a word, disturbed.  We had requested a "quiet" room located in a quiet part of the hotel when booking and this was confirmed during check-in.  With kids we retired early most nights and were woken regularly by one or more of the following:   Inadvertent banging of hotel room doors by other guests late and early, phone rechargers being plugged/plugged out/ plugged back in again by guests next door ,sockets being switched on and off at 4am, flushing toilets at all hours.  Guest TVs being turned on in the early hours, or at 6am.  Guests with too much alcohol consumed arguing (and fighting... I kid you not) which upset our own kids for a few days.  Room service banging their room cleaning carts off door saddles, walls and anything else they could find religiously at 7:30 each morning in the hope guests would get up and allow them start their cleaning duties.  Having to vacate the rooms to allow cleaning, which for whatever reason could start anywhere from 8am and not finish until 2pm... become annoying very quickly as you effectively had to be out of your hotel room for the entire morning each day... not good when the weather was raining... the amount of noise generated in a shared space took some getting used to.  When holidaying in a hotel, you are simply not in control of your environment in any shape or form and your night's slumber is at the mercy of everyone else and their habits.  Not a relaxing experience at all.

Cost:
15 nights for Two adults, two kids 4* hotel and pretty much 3 x meals out a day... the cost was eyewatering equating to approximately half the mortgage interest cost (mortgage of €180K @ 3.89%) for the entire year for our holiday home... and this was just for one holiday !!  We would simply not considering doing this type of holiday on cost grounds.  Its far cheaper to finance and run a holiday home (in France at least) if you are taking 2+ holidays a year using decent hotels.  Eating out was very expensive.  When staying in a hotel you lose the freedom to supermarket shop and prepare your own meals.

In conclusion, personally, I was surprised by the things we take for granted having a holiday home which we have become accustomed to.  This recent hotel experience made me realise that on holiday we value our independence and being able to do what we want, when we want is of real value and importance to us.  Ultimately, in our circumstances we could simply not justify the cost of hotel holidays for 2-4 weeks against the freedom offered by our holiday home.


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## noproblem (12 Apr 2018)

Each to their own Alastair but in some warm countries having/owning a swimming pool does not come cheap and its proper upkeep has now quite a lot of legal requirements that were once not needed at all. Pools in (some) countries that are shared on a complex need supervision for certain hours and who do you think pays for that? Filters and pumps need constant monitoring and upkeep, ie, costly, where water is scarce a pool can be very expensive and sometimes are not allowed to be filled at all. These may be of no concern in France, YET, but like elsewhere, it may become the norm. Now, i'm only talking about one item,ie a swimming pool!!!!! There's plenty of other things and all cost little bits and pieces of ones money. These little bits and pieces have a habit of adding up.


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## Alistair (12 Apr 2018)

Noproblem, France is highly regulated in terms of swimming pool access.   There are not many legal requirements beyond an approved cover when not in use and a walled garden/enclosed grounds surrounding the pool area. 

The costs of running a pool largely depend on whether it is heated or not.  For us (and most modern home swimming pools) they are heated using an atmospheric heat exchanger unit (i.e. Titan heat exchanger).  For our location in France we open the pool in June and close it in October.  During this 6 month period, we are able to heat it to 26C for free effectively.  Filtration systems and pumps are extremely reliable (ours have been running without issue or maintenance for 11+ years).   It costs €220 to purchase a good brand replacement pump and ~€80 to have fitted professionally.  We test the water quality once every 10 days or so with a kit that costs ~€10 and lasts a full year.  We pay for water on a quarterly basis for the house and pool which on average costs < €400 per year in total... and that is with running showers for kids.   We purchase Bromine tablets to clean / sanitise the pool which are fed in through the filtration system automatically.  This costs max €100 for 6 months with the pool in daily use for 4 of those months.  The cleaning of the pool is done with a little robot thing automatically at night so no cost there. We pay a professional service to clean and open the pool at the start of the year and to close it and to winterize it at end of the year which costs €80 each time, so €160 in total.

We have not experienced any notable costs or maintenance issue with running an average size swimming pool.  Same issue for our friend who have a similar set up about an hour's drive from our location. As such I don't agree with your view on the costs of running a pool as that does not align to our experience.


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## noproblem (12 Apr 2018)

As I said Alastair, it may not be the case in France and as you say, it's not.
Lots of Irish people purchased in France over the years and hopefully they are enjoying their investment. What's the situation in that country with regard to inheritance? If for example the owner died, does his Irish will suffice for inheritance purposes?


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## Leo (12 Apr 2018)

Alistair said:


> Recently, we took ourselves and our two kids on holiday and stayed in hotels for about 16 days.



This analysis isn't really relevant to the topic at hand though, it's an apples and oranges comparison. You need to compare experiences of owning a property versus renting a similar one in the same or different locations.

A poor hotel experience is not a good justification for foreign property investment, just as a good hotel experience isn't a valid reason to sell the family home and move into one.


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## Ceist Beag (12 Apr 2018)

gnf_ireland said:


> Buy a place for around 250,000 on coastal Spain _(no clue on costs either I will add)_ - 75k deposit and mortgage of 175,000 @ 3% [either in Spain or remortgage house here]. Assume opportunity cost of 75k is 1%. Lets say cost of maintaining the property per year is 3k (no idea, so just a guess). That works out at the annual cost associated to the place is 9,000 per year [750+5250+3000]
> 
> Lets say you could take in 6k in lettings (after fees) => between June, 4 weeks of the summer (mid July to mid-August), cheap 3 month Sept to Nov and between Christmas and February midterm. Assume this would not incur taxes as costs are higher than this.
> 
> ...


I think your calculations are a missing a bit here gnf. If you're looking at travelling over for 4 different times during the year this would cost quite a bit in airfare (assuming a family of 5 this could be in the region of 4K in total). So that would mean a cost of 1400 a week, not 600. 
If I compare that with a holiday in a rented apartment it's not much different tbh. I can get a 2 week holiday in the peak of the summer period for a family of 5, including flights, for around 2500 (so 1250 a week). 
As others on this thread have shown, having your own place abroad would make you feel that you have to keep going back as often as possible to make it all feel justified - which for children will most likely lead to them feeling negative towards the place.

Alistair, in terms of your post, as pointed out by Leo, you're not comparing like with like at all. You should be comparing an apartment/holiday home rental with owning one.

As some have pointed out on this thread, with AirBnB and other similar websites, it has never been easier to search for accommodation abroad and compare prices, amenties, location, etc. Personally I would see no good reason for wanting to buy and tie yourself to one spot (not to mention the huge financial commitment that would involve).


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## gnf_ireland (12 Apr 2018)

Ceist Beag said:


> I think your calculations are a missing a bit here gnf. If you're looking at travelling over for 4 different times during the year this would cost quite a bit in airfare (assuming a family of 5 this could be in the region of 4K in total).


@Ceist Beag  The reason I left the airfares out was because I was looking at the cost of the property rather than the holiday in total. If I decided to go to Spain at Easter, I can book the flights and then debate what type of accommodation I want- hotel, aparthotel, airBnB or holiday home. The price of the flights is independent of this decision. The only time that comes into play is if I feel obliged to go to Spain just because I have a holiday home there.

As I said in a later post, we have decided against it at this stage in our lives - for a lot of the reasons suggested here. However, it was a useful exercise to see if it was something we wanted or not !


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## Ceist Beag (13 Apr 2018)

gnf_ireland said:


> The only time that comes into play is if I feel obliged to go to Spain just because I have a holiday home there.


Yeah that's the only reason I mentioned it gnf. The consensus appears to be that you would feel obliged to travel more often and possibly for shorter periods (such as your example of 3 different 1 week trips) so I think that would result in you taking more flights than you otherwise would so it would result in an additional cost. If you don't own one I would think most people would travel once for a longer period rather than lots of shorter trips.
Anyway, fwiw I think you made the right decision!


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## Firefly (13 Apr 2018)

Alistair said:


> Recently, we took ourselves and our two kids on holiday and stayed in hotels for about 16 days.



What in God's name persuaded you to do that? 

I'm guessing cabin fever kicked in on the 3rd day!


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## huskerdu (13 Apr 2018)

Alistairs post is a comparison of a holiday in a hotel and a holiday in a holiday home. Its not relevant to this discussion. 

I agree with the points but its not a very strong argument for buying a holiday home when I can rent one in any location any time I want to go on holiday


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## rob oyle (13 Apr 2018)

I think I've mentioned this before here but I’m surprised it never seems to come up in conversation when discussing the purchase of a foreign property.

At some stage in the future, national governments or international organisations will HAVE TO start tackling GHG emissions and our contribution to climate change. This would include the damage that air travel does and I think such a form of travel would be low-hanging fruit for most countries. This would mean making such travel more difficult or, more likely, much more expensive. If this is the case, owning an asset that is too expensive to visit probably won’t make much sense. And the demand for such properties to rent or acquire, would also be hit, so getting rid of them wouldn’t be easy. I don’t know how long that will take but it should at least be a consideration when deciding to make such a big financial commitment. Maybe I’m being optimistic about our motivation to address bad habits or to plan leaving something for future generations!


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## DaveyWavey (13 Apr 2018)

*Where/When did you buy property? – *2007, Southern Spain*

How much did it cost? What is property value now? *- €170000 then, €150000 now*

How did you finance purchase?* – re-mortgage on PPR 
*
How did you choose property? *– Had been to the area a few times and liked it. Planned a 2 week trip to view multiple properties.*

Did/Do you rent it out when not in use yourself? *– No, never rented. Get stick from my friends but that’s the choice we made.*

Was managing the home through the years a big task? *– Not at all.*

Were local tax's/rates more expensive than you had predicted? *– No, not that expensive in reality.
*
Did/Do you feel restricted going to same location year after year for holidays? *Absolutely not. We have made many friends there and feels like home from home when we go.*

Did/Do you let family/friends stay in your property? *– Yes mostly family but some friends have used it.*



Overall positive or negative - are you glad looking back you bought the foreign property, would you recommend to someone who is interested in making this lifestyle choice decision/purchase?*

To me, it has been a positive experience. I did not get into it as an investment, it is more a lifestyle choice. I am still working but get there 3-4 times a year. I don’t ever see myself spending more than 6-8 weeks at a time so no plans to retire there. The recurring costs are (excluding any Taxes)

·  Annual Community Fees €1100

·  IBI (like Property Tax) €500

·  Water & Electricity every 2 months when not there about €80

·  Water, Electricity incl Air Conditioning during Summer €200

·  Bank Fees approx. €150 per year

I live 10 minutes from Cork Airport so it couldn’t be easier to get there. Leave early am flight, pickup car rental and at the apartment by 11am.

It is not for everyone and there will be some unpredictable costs e.g. Air Conditioning breakdown, appliance breakdown, additional community cost of painting the exterior of the entire block etc.

The memories we have had (and hope to yet have) are priceless so I am happy with the decision. We still go on Weekend breaks to European cities and am off on a cruise to the Norwegian Fjords in a few weeks so don't feel tied to Spain in any way.


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## PaxmanK (17 Apr 2018)

I know several families with holiday homes in the family.
From what I can gather the people paying for it find it expensive but nice to have a holiday home.
But their friends and relatives use them more and have hit the jackpot.
My advice.  Find a relative to persuade to buy a holiday home


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## cremeegg (17 Apr 2018)

PaxmanK said:


> I know several families with holiday homes in the family.



That’s not a great place to have a holiday home. Ther weather is often stormy and the neighbours can be a little too close.


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