# Public Service Promotion



## Wardy7 (15 Mar 2017)

Why is the system for promotion in the Public Service how it is?

Competency based interviews which require you to fit into defined "boxes".

No input from your manager on your strengths, abilities, experience etc. Based completely on 30 minute interview with 3 strangers where you have to hope that the questions go your way and you manage to work in all of your information (which can't always be done).

Lots of good people succeed but unfortunately lots of gonkers do to! People who can talk the talk but can't (or couldn't be bothered) to walk the walk.

So unbelievably frustrating.  Sucks the life, enthusiasm and ambition from you.

Quote of the day from my OH "_This place is designed to break you"


_


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## Purple (15 Mar 2017)

A friend of mine sets on interview panels for PS posts and promotions. He said that in most cases they are trying to find/promote the best person but it is still often the case that they already have the person or the local Councillor, who will be on the next panel when the other people on the current panel are seeking promotion, is looking to appoint a friend. If he pushed to have the right person promoted/hired he just doesn't get asked back the next time.


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## Wardy7 (15 Mar 2017)

Yeah, I have heard that many times too. In many cases they know exactly who's getting promoted before they interview.

The corruption is sickening and just serves to ruin the good people!


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## cremeegg (15 Mar 2017)

Wardy7 said:


> Yeah, I have heard that many times too. In many cases they know exactly who's getting promoted before they interview.
> 
> The corruption is sickening and just serves to ruin the good people!



I have no sympathy for this.

If that is how you see it have some self respect and leave.


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## Purple (15 Mar 2017)

Wardy7 said:


> Yeah, I have heard that many times too. In many cases they know exactly who's getting promoted before they interview.
> 
> The corruption is sickening and just serves to ruin the good people!


I don't think it's endemic though and probably not nearly as bad as in large private companies. It's the bar is set at the lowest common denominator that would get me.


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## Purple (15 Mar 2017)

cremeegg said:


> I have no sympathy for this.
> 
> If that is how you see it have some self respect and leave.


That's unfair. If someone is dedicated and wants to do a particular role which is only available in the Public Sector then leaving isn't really an option. From a corruption point of view our Public services score very well internationally. It's in quality and efficiency that we fall down.


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## Wardy7 (15 Mar 2017)

cremeegg said:


> I have no sympathy for this.
> 
> If that is how you see it have some self respect and leave.



Yeah, that's the answer.


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## jjm (15 Mar 2017)

Purple From a corruption point of View our Public services score well internationally .Tell me how you can compare your own post no2  Internationally when there is no paper trail .


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## cremeegg (15 Mar 2017)

If the corruption is sickening, that is the OPs comment not mine, and the good people are ruined. Then leave.

Of course people don't leave, they stay and collect their wages and pension entitlements and moan.

Life is short, why waste yours in an atmosphere of sickening corruption.


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## Purple (15 Mar 2017)

jjm2016 said:


> Purple From a corruption point of View our Public services score well internationally .Tell me how you can compare your own post no2  Internationally when there is no paper trail .


Sorry jjm, I don't understand your question. I base my views on this matter on the reports from Transparency International.


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## thedaddyman (15 Mar 2017)

I listened to a business podcast earlier recently which said that if you are recruiting or hiring and get it right 6 times out of 10, you're doing really well. The reality is that any kind of recruitment or promotion process is, to one degree or another, a subjective process. I've been passed over for roles in the past and bitched about it afterwards but I've also hired and promoted people in the past and made the wrong decision. I've learnt for example that the most experienced operator does not make the best supervisor or that the person with most operational knowledge does not make the best trainer. 

Having said all of that, the use of Councilors in any PS interview process is questionable. At the very least, they should be expected to state any conflict of interest or contact from candidates at the door before an interview


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## Leper (15 Mar 2017)

Other than performance at work I don't know any accurate way of assessing candidates for promotion. Some have the knack of performing and looking well at interviews but when it comes to walking the talk they are found wanting. And will it ever change? From my observances  in the public sector no chance whatsoever.

If you are looking for advice go and get yourself an interview coach and conduct several sessions over weeks until you are completely comfortable on how you look, act, do etc. Believe me, I hear you.


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## Sophrosyne (15 Mar 2017)

I think that promotion should be based chiefly on job knowledge and productivity on the basis that if a person is neither knowledgeable nor productive, then any other competencies or skills they may have are irrelevant.

Knowledge should be demonstrated by written examinations, which are set and checked by competent assessors.

Candidates should be known to the assessors only by number in order to eliminate favouritism.


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## Purple (15 Mar 2017)

Sophrosyne said:


> I think that promotion should be based chiefly on job knowledge and productivity on the basis that if a person is neither knowledgeable nor productive, then any other competencies or skills they may have are irrelevant.
> 
> Knowledge should be demonstrated by written examinations, which are set and checked by competent assessors.
> 
> Candidates should be known to the assessors only by number in order to eliminate favouritism.


What about management positions? The most difficult part of any job is managing people.


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## Sophrosyne (15 Mar 2017)

I did not say that competencies, such as communication, leadership and people skills, etc., are not important, but rather that they are irrelevant in the case of an individual who is neither knowledgeable nor productive, manager or otherwise.


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## Leper (16 Mar 2017)

Purple said:


> What about management positions? The most difficult part of any job is managing people.



You can probably hear my guffaws . . . first let's look at the competition for promotion process.

1. Assessment by Line Manager:- Usually done quarterly in arrears and you are advised that no matter how good or bad you are, you are getting a "down-the-middle" assessment.  This exonerates the manager if after promotion you are seen in a good or bad light. If he gives you excellent marks on an assessment and you fail to perform he is seen in a bad light.

2. The Interview:- Board made up with some regulars who are there for the mileage, subsistence and handy fee.  No member of the board will disagree with the already decided winner ensuring their participation on future interview boards.

3. The Result:- Form FU2 is sent to all unsuccessful candidates, but advising " the standard was high" and "you were not successful on this occasion" and "best of luck in your future career." That is if they are capable of forming a decent letter, which usually they cannot.

4. The Fallout:- You've made your mediocre line-manager look good for years. You've taken his flak every hour of every day. He has used you (and calls it delegation) and you are now tired of being flogged to death. You made allowances for such unperforming management in the past and you decide to stay working, clocking in the hours, but making life as easy as possible for yourself. Well they asked for it! You turn your hobby into a good business idea and you make a few bob on the side proving you're better than most.  

. . . anybody looking in and feeling the hurt, read my last sentence.


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## Purple (16 Mar 2017)

Leper said:


> You can probably hear my guffaws . . . first let's look at the competition for promotion process.
> 
> 1. Assessment by Line Manager:- Usually done quarterly in arrears and you are advised that no matter how good or bad you are, you are getting a "down-the-middle" assessment.  This exonerates the manager if after promotion you are seen in a good or bad light. If he gives you excellent marks on an assessment and you fail to perform he is seen in a bad light.
> 
> ...


...at least it hasn't made you cynical. 
If that's how the Public Sector really works then what hope is there for us as a country?


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## torblednam (16 Mar 2017)

Leper said:


> Other than performance at work I don't know any accurate way of assessing candidates for promotion. Some have the knack of performing and looking well at interviews but when it comes to walking the talk they are found wanting. And will it ever change? From my observances  in the public sector no chance whatsoever.



As an ardent union man, were you not part of a movement that rigidly resisted the move from promotion on seniority to competitive promotions...??


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## Deiseblue (16 Mar 2017)

Never a truer word Leper , the same system applied in Bank of Ireland .
It was common knowledge that assessing managers were allocated rankings which were to be applied regardless of any excellent performance of the individual being assessed.
Regardless to say the inability of managers to correctly rank performance caused mass discontent which was only halted when staff with Union backing simply refused to engage with appraisals .
This course of action was hugely beneficial to staff as many who were on incremental Union negotiated salaries never had to participate in such appraisals again - it was of course different for those on pay for performance.


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## torblednam (16 Mar 2017)

Actually, seeing Deiseblue's post, I think I may have gotten Leper and Deiseblue mixed up...  unless ye are both ardent union men...!


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## Sophrosyne (16 Mar 2017)

What does Leper and Deiseblue being “ardent union men” - if indeed they are - have to do with Wardy’s original post, which concerns the current promotional system?


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## Leper (16 Mar 2017)

torblednam said:


> As an ardent union man, were you not part of a movement that rigidly resisted the move from promotion on seniority to competitive promotions...??



No.


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## Leper (16 Mar 2017)

torblednam said:


> Actually, seeing Deiseblue's post, I think I may have gotten Leper and Deiseblue mixed up...  unless ye are both ardent union men...!



You didn't get Déise and me confused.  We need each other when Purple is around.


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## jjm (16 Mar 2017)

I can see purple becoming more leper than leper hinself.


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## Leper (18 Mar 2017)

jjm2016 said:


> I can see purple becoming more leper than leper hinself.



 . . . . perish the thought!!!!!!


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## Vanessa (20 Mar 2017)

Assessments and references in the Public Service are not worth the paper they are written on. Awkward incompetent people are recommended for promotion and transfer in order to get rid of them. Interviewers are more liable to contact someone they know in a department to get the true story about an indivdual rather than believe glowing reports. Also it is necessary to have a geogaphical spread of successful candidates. This means a thicko in Mayo will get promoted rather than two deserving candidates from the one section elsewhere


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## Páid (20 Mar 2017)

Vanessa said:


> Also it is necessary to have a geogaphical spread of successful candidates. This means a thicko in Mayo will get promoted rather than two deserving candidates from the one section elsewhere


If they are as productive as two candidates elsewhere then maybe they deserve the job.


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## Purple (20 Mar 2017)

jjm2016 said:


> I can see purple becoming more leper than leper hinself.


I do have strong socialist tendencies alright. That's the main reason I dislike vested interest groups like Unions who prey on the weak and vulnerable.


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## Purple (20 Mar 2017)

Leper said:


> . . . . perish the thought!!!!!!


You have caused me to regress. Proud of yourself??


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## Vanessa (21 Mar 2017)

Páid said:


> If they are as productive as two candidates elsewhere then maybe they deserve the job.


They are not as productive. What happens is a candidate is selected on a geographical basis to keep every region happy. This results in a dodo being selected and a deserving candidate elsewhere being not selected.


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## Leper (22 Mar 2017)

Thank you Vanessa for that.  It's one thing I never took into consideration, but now you have opened my eyes more. Just another line in the chapter of how not to give the promotion to the right person. Well Done Vanessa - perhaps you are not as innocent as I thought on a previous issue? I love the word "dodo."


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## Páid (22 Mar 2017)

Vanessa said:


> They are not as productive. What happens is a candidate is selected on a geographical basis to keep every region happy. This results in a dodo being selected and a deserving candidate elsewhere being not selected.


That "deserving" candidate elsewhere can apply for the post in any geographical area they wish, including the county where the most "thickos" congregate. It should then be a walk in the park for them to get promoted.


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## Vanessa (22 Mar 2017)

Páid said:


> That "deserving" candidate elsewhere can apply for the post in any geographical area they wish, including the county where the most "thickos" congregate. It should then be a walk in the park for them to get promoted.


That is my point. The management are more interested in keeping the union happy by spreading promotions throughout the country rather than promoting the best candidates and allocating them to wherever the vacancies arise.


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## Páid (22 Mar 2017)

Your argument is self defeating. 

1. Anyone may apply for any post in any county once they reach the eligibility requirements.
2. There is more competition in counties such as Dublin, Galway, Cork, Limerick, etc. but there are usually more posts. Smaller counties may have less competition but there are usually less posts.


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## Vanessa (22 Mar 2017)

Páid said:


> Your argument is self defeating.
> 
> 1. Anyone may apply for any post in any county once they reach the eligibility requirements.
> 2. There is more competition in counties such as Dublin, Galway, Cork, Limerick, etc. but there are usually more posts. Smaller counties may have less competition but there are usually less posts.


I am aware that anyone can apply but it is the approach of management that is in issue. Certain sections of the Public Sector allocate places on a geographical basis so that every county is represented on the promotion list rather than allocating the places to the most deserving candidate regardless of their geographical location


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## Leper (22 Mar 2017)

Vanessa said:


> That is my point. The management are more interested in keeping the union happy by spreading promotions throughout the country rather than promoting the best candidates and allocating them to wherever the vacancies arise.



Unions are not interested in the promotion prospects of any one person. The unions are interested in fair play in the selection process though.  Us public service lifers know that in most cases fair play and promotions seldom seem to meet. There was a time when the next suitable senior member was nearly automatically the choice for promotion.  This went by the board back in the 1980's when the interview process was installed as the cheaper, faster and mostly promotion-controlled environment imaginable.  Let's face it the majority of promotions was to unimportant lower management positions i.e. one or two grades up from clerical officer.  So it was not too important if the wrong person got chosen. It did make a difference however to the clerical officer who was busting his/her butt to improve performance in the hope that somebody who could do the promotion job would be successful.  There were many cases where somebody who didn't have a clue whatsoever in lower management got the job and suddenly found himself/herself supervising people who knew the promotional job inside out. This never led to any kind of good feeling other than to turn good people into cynical punchers of time and making the new manager look stupid, at least, initially.


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## cremeegg (23 Mar 2017)

Leper, I dont accept the suggestion made by an earlier poster in this thread that the public service is "totally corrupt" but your post does seem a more balanced reflection. Can you understand why the general public are disgusted with the public service. The antics you describe waste tax payers money and affect the services delivered to the public.


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## Deiseblue (23 Mar 2017)

If I'm reading Leper''s post correctly this antiquated promotion system ended in the 80's. 
The same system applied in the major Banks at the time , to achieve the rank of senior bank official you simply had to serve 5 years , promotions to officer grade & assistant manager grade were simply made in the majority of cases on the nod & without interviews - length of service & gender being the main factors. 
Thankfully things changed.


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## Purple (23 Mar 2017)

Leper said:


> Unions are not interested in the promotion prospects of any one person. The unions are interested in fair play in the selection process though.


 Does that mean they are happy when someone who is only in a job a short time is promoted ahead of a far more experienced person because the new guy is just much better at the job?


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## thedaddyman (23 Mar 2017)

Leper said:


> Unions are not interested in the promotion prospects of any one person. The unions are interested in fair play in the selection process though.  .



Yeah, right. I know 2 people in my own family who were told by the union rep if they did not join the union they would never be promoted. Unions have their own cronies and favourites as well


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## Vanessa (23 Mar 2017)

Most Public Service Union bosses are only interested in their six figure salaries and getting soft interviews from their lefty cronies in the media. Thats why they were so angry with the Dublin Firemen Teachers and Guards who stood up to the government and wouldnt accept Haddington rd and Landsdowne rd agreements. Those groups showed the power of collective action and the Government folded


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## Leper (23 Mar 2017)

Purple said:


> Does that mean they are happy when someone who is only in a job a short time is promoted ahead of a far more experienced person because the new guy is just much better at the job?





thedaddyman said:


> Yeah, right. I know 2 people in my own family who were told by the union rep if they did not join the union they would never be promoted. Unions have their own cronies and favourites as well



Just to answer your questions:- Although I have been involved in union representation at local level, I have never come across either situation. I am not saying neither happened, I am saying categorically that I never came across such situations and if I did I would not condone or support the situations. 

I have always been in favour that the most suitable person for the job in competition should be the successful candidate.


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## Leper (23 Mar 2017)

cremeegg said:


> Leper, I dont accept the suggestion made by an earlier poster in this thread that the public service is "totally corrupt" but your post does seem a more balanced reflection. Can you understand why the general public are disgusted with the public service. The antics you describe waste tax payers money and affect the services delivered to the public.



Like yourself Cremeegg, I don't believe that the public service is "totally corrupt" but neither is it totally honest in promotions.

If I failed to answer any question please feel free to inform me and I will.


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