# Institute of Investing and Financial Trading



## New Guy (12 Mar 2015)

I was thinking of doing the 8 week diploma with IIFT in trading. I am a complete beginner. Does anyone know anything about them or have any advice? Its a considerable amount of money to sign up €995


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## galway_blow_in (12 Mar 2015)

New Guy said:


> I was thinking of doing the 8 week diploma with IIFT in trading. I am a complete beginner. Does anyone know anything about them or have any advice? Its a considerable amount of money to sign up €995




seems extremely expensive


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## tvman (12 Mar 2015)

If the course promises to show you how to generate superior returns from trading (i.e. better than a passive buy and hold investment strategy adjusted for how risky your portfolio is) then I would say €1 is too much to pay.


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## Jim2007 (12 Mar 2015)

tvman said:


> If the course promises to show you how to generate superior returns from trading (i.e. better than a passive buy and hold investment strategy adjusted for how risky your portfolio is) then I would say €1 is too much to pay.



Agreed, it they were capable of doing it, they would not need to sell the course now would they???


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## New Guy (13 Mar 2015)

Anyone know what the best option is to learn the trade? The course makes no promises other than to teach you the skills over 8 weeks. They also state that they will provide live trading days with coaching and mentoring. The syllabus teaches risk mgmt, technical analysis etc. The website states that one could achieve a return of 2 - 3%


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## Jim2007 (13 Mar 2015)

New Guy said:


> Anyone know what the best option is to learn the trade? The course makes no promises other than to teach you the skills over 8 weeks. They also state that they will provide live trading days with coaching and mentoring. The syllabus teaches risk mgmt, technical analysis etc. The website states that one could achieve a return of 2 - 3%



Lets put 2% or 3%  into perspective:  The general conciseness is that a solid equity portfolio should generate a return of between 6% and 8% and if you had invested in a STOXX 600 Reit you have achieved a return of a little over 12% pa.  All of these options produce a higher return at a lower risk....

There are only two groups who consistently make money out of trading, those selling training courses and those selling software to traders (including myself in a past life).  Everyone else eventually looses, despite the few killer trades they make.  As an exercise you should take a look at the trading activities of UBS and in particular the lead up to the decision to no longer trade on their own account.

Believe what I said before, if they were able to make good money out of trading in the long run, they would not need to sell training courses!


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## New Guy (13 Mar 2015)

Great, thanks for the advice


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## tvman (13 Mar 2015)

As a matter of interest was the 2/3% the expected annual return? Or was it 2/3% above some benchmark return? Was there any mention of fees/transaction costs (the type of portfolio churning that active trading entails means massive transaction costs)? 

Sorry for the questions but I'm interested to know how these guys sell this course.  The amount of free publicity this institute gets from RTE's use of one of its directors as a market analyst is immense.


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## New Guy (13 Mar 2015)

2/3% per month is what they were mentioning. There was no mention of fees that I could see


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## Atract04 (13 Mar 2015)

To tell you the truth... I was also intrigued by this course, probably if I have so much dividend from my stocks then the money involve will not matter... learning about money is never a lost cost... but at the moment if you ask me...  is be defensive with your investments... I know a lot of people who engaged in market analysis that got exponentially rich... but sadly I also knew people that lost everything... Learning about market analysis and what day traders do is good thing... But unless you work in the bank or in the Department of finance it is not necessary to do it... the internet is your friend.


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## Steven Barrett (13 Mar 2015)

Warren Buffett is the world's most successful investor. Does he day trade? No, he does the opposite. I think I'll stick with the strategy of the man with a 50 year proven track record.

From Buffett's latest shareholder letter which was issued last month



> I know of no way to reliably predict market movements




Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## MrEarl (13 Mar 2015)

SBarrett said:


> Warren Buffett ....



One of my all time heros....

We'll see who has been swimming naked, when the tide goes out


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## Jim2007 (13 Mar 2015)

Atract04 said:


> I know a lot of people who engaged in market analysis that got exponentially rich... but sadly I also knew people that lost everything... Learning about market analysis and what day traders do is good thing... But unless you work in the bank or in the Department of finance it is not necessary to do it... the internet is your friend.



And after over 25 years in the industry I know absolutely no one who got rich or even close to it for the long term!  I know an awful lot of people that got rich on paper and saw it wiped out and I know some people that were rich in real terms for a few years but they eventually traded it a way.  On the other hand I know a lot of who in their 20s set out with the objective of retiring at 50 and made it in their early 50s by living within their means and investing in good stocks when they were cheap.

If you are going to put your time into anything in this area then put it into learning about investing - is not nearly as difficult to accumulate enough capital to retire early if something like that is your objective.


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## demoivre (16 Mar 2015)

SBarrett said:


> Warren Buffett is the world's most successful investor. Does he day trade? No, he does the opposite. I think I'll stick with the strategy of the man with a 50 year proven track record.
> 
> From Buffett's latest shareholder letter which was issued last month
> 
> ...



Making money from trading ( as opposed to investing ) is more about money management than predicting market movements.


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## tvman (16 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> Making money from trading ( as opposed to investing ) is more about money management than predicting market movements.



But if you can't predict market movements how can you hope to exceed the (risk adjusted) market return?


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## Jim2007 (16 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> Making money from trading ( as opposed to investing ) is more about money management than predicting market movements.



Go enlighten us, I've not heard this one in a while....


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## galway_blow_in (16 Mar 2015)

Jim2007 said:


> Lets put 2% or 3%  into perspective:  The general conciseness is that a solid equity portfolio should generate a return of between 6% and 8% and if you had invested in a STOXX 600 Reit you have achieved a return of a little over 12% pa.  All of these options produce a higher return at a lower risk....
> 
> There are only two groups who consistently make money out of trading, those selling training courses and those selling software to traders (including myself in a past life).  Everyone else eventually looses, despite the few killer trades they make.  As an exercise you should take a look at the trading activities of UBS and in particular the lead up to the decision to no longer trade on their own account.
> 
> Believe what I said before, if they were able to make good money out of trading in the long run, they would not need to sell training courses!




completely agree , ive owned stocks since 2010 and while ive made nice money and have enjoyed it , had i simply bought a global etf via vanguard or ishares , i would be better off and my broker would be less well off

ive learned that im simply not smart enough to beat the market which makes me as smart as four out of five fund managers


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## Steven Barrett (17 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> Making money from trading ( as opposed to investing ) is more about money management than predicting market movements.



I can be a little bit dumb at times so could you explain that to me because I have no idea what that means. 

Thanks

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## RobFer (17 Mar 2015)

galway_blow_in said:


> completely agree , ive owned stocks since 2010 and while ive made nice money and have enjoyed it , had i simply bought a global etf via vanguard or ishares , i would be better off and my broker would be less well off
> 
> ive learned that im simply not smart enough to beat the market which makes me as smart as four out of five fund managers


Thus it is sad that it is not so straightforward due to the complicated tax regime that favours holding shares over funds and ETFs. This complication combined with ETF's expense ratios do undermine the argument for passive investing in Ireland.


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## Fella (17 Mar 2015)

I'd go to a course that showed me legal loopholes to avoid paying excessive taxes on ETF's , a friend of mine suggested there was ways around paying exit taxes on ETF's but he may be talking bull. 

It may be almost worth my while buying a house up the north and moving my address up there I dunno , seems criminal that in uk they get 10k cgt allowance and we get none on same products.

I'll probably pay a tax advisor soon , see can I find any ways around it , then post them here is I do , must be some legal loopholes left maybe spending x amount of months a year in uk


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## Brendan Burgess (17 Mar 2015)

RobFer said:


> This complication combined with ETF's expense ratios do undermine the argument for passive investing in Ireland.



Eh, no it doesn't.  I am a passive investor. I hold a diversified portfolio of around 10 shares directly. I do not try to pick winners. When things go wrong, I don't cut my losses. When things go well, I don't "take profits".


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## RobFer (17 Mar 2015)

Sure. I meant passive investing by tracking an index. Usually that is what is meant by passive investing. I am trying to do what you are doing but I wonder are the handful of stocks I pick likely to capture the market.


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## demoivre (18 Mar 2015)

SBarrett said:


> I can be a little bit dumb at times so could you explain that to me because I have no idea what that means.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...



My pleasure. Looking back over the last few days... My last 10 futures trades resulted in 4 winners 5  losers and a 0 (neutral ), so my ability to predict the market  is not great !. The 4 winners netted 36 points, the 5 losers netted -16 points. Points equal money so it's money management  that yielded good results more than my ability to predict market movements. Cutting losses and running profits is mainly what it's all about. Other important factors imo include suitable market avoid cfd's, spread betting and forex . Use a direct access trading platform with low execution costs. I pay £ 20 for my round ( open/close) futures trade - plenty of brokers out there would charge £50 to £70 for the same thing !


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## Jim2007 (18 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> The 4 winners netted 36 points, the 5 losers netted -16 points. Points equal money so it's money management  that yielded good results more than my ability to predict market movements. Cutting losses and running profits is mainly what it's all about.



You make money if your winners yield more points than your losers.... in short all it is hoping/predicting... call it what you will, that you will win more than you loose.  There is not money management in that.


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## Steven Barrett (18 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> My pleasure. Looking back over the last few days... My last 10 futures trades resulted in 4 winners 5  losers and a 0 (neutral ), so my ability to predict the market  is not great !. The 4 winners netted 36 points, the 5 losers netted -16 points. Points equal money so it's money management  that yielded good results more than my ability to predict market movements. Cutting losses and running profits is mainly what it's all about. Other important factors imo include suitable market avoid cfd's, spread betting and forex . Use a direct access trading platform with low execution costs. I pay £ 20 for my round ( open/close) futures trade - plenty of brokers out there would charge £50 to £70 for the same thing !



Thanks for the reply. 

That's not for me, too short term and too risky. 

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## RobFer (18 Mar 2015)

Jim2007 said:


> You make money if your winners yield more points than your losers.... in short all it is hoping/predicting... call it what you will, that you will win more than you loose.  There is not money management in that.


I don't think it can be put down to fluke but the question is whether performance above the market return is more than fluke. In a bull market its not hard to make some money.


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## Jim2007 (18 Mar 2015)

RobFer said:


> I don't think it can be put down to fluke but the question is whether performance above the market return is more than fluke.



Oh there is no doubt that it is a fluke!  But there are periods when the trader gets it right and of course we can add some lovely math and graphs to it.... but in the long run the house always wins.  That is why the best way to make money out of trading is to be a picks & shovels merchant!


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## demoivre (18 Mar 2015)

Jim2007 said:


> You make money if your winners yield more points than your losers.... in short all it is hoping/predicting... call it what you will, that you will win more than you loose.  There is not money management in that.



Applying a stop loss to a trade, which  limits the extent of a losing trade, is not money management? Moving a stop loss to lock in profits in a winning trade is not money management? Ok .


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## RichInSpirit (18 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> avoid cfd's, spread betting and forex .



Spread betting does have tax advantages and isn't that dangerous if you use money management. You don't have to use all (or any) of the available leverage.


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## tvman (19 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> Applying a stop loss to a trade, which  limits the extent of a losing trade, is not money management? Moving a stop loss to lock in profits in a winning trade is not money management? Ok .



Would you say you have far better market prediction skills than professional fund managers (I say far better because the transaction costs you pay are many times greater than they pay). The best fund managers in the world cannot consistently beat the (risk adjusted) market returns consistently.  Any investors who do (Buffet etc) appear to share one characteristic - they buy and hold for very long periods, minimising transaction costs (its also possible they are just lucky).

When you make a profitable trade ask yourself - is it likely I saw this mispricing but other traders/investors did not? If you can't plausibly answer yes - there is no possibility that what happened was not down to luck or general market movements.


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## Jim2007 (19 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> Applying a stop loss to a trade, which  limits the extent of a losing trade, is not money management? Moving a stop loss to lock in profits in a winning trade is not money management? Ok .



It might be risk management, but then again stop loss orders very often fire at the wrong moment resulting lost opportunity...


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## demoivre (23 Mar 2015)

tvman said:


> Would you say you have far better market prediction skills than professional fund managers (I say far better because the transaction costs you pay are many times greater than they pay). The best fund managers in the world cannot consistently beat the (risk adjusted) market returns consistently.  Any investors who do (Buffet etc) appear to share one characteristic - they buy and hold for very long periods, minimising transaction costs (its also possible they are just lucky).
> 
> When you make a profitable trade ask yourself - is it likely I saw this mispricing but other traders/investors did not? If you can't plausibly answer yes - there is no possibility that what happened was not down to luck or general market movements.



It's got very little to do with predicting or identifying mispricing - I've already explained what it's about. This is a pointless discussion. Lets compare traders to traders and investors to investors. I don't know what Buffet's typical returns are but I doubt they're 200 to 300 % per annum which is what mine would be.


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## demoivre (23 Mar 2015)

Jim2007 said:


> It might be risk management, but then again stop loss orders very often fire at the wrong moment resulting lost opportunity...



 You execute the trade and then place the stop !!


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## Jim2007 (23 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> I don't know what Buffet's typical returns are but I doubt they're 200 to 300 % per annum which is what mine would be.



And you have been doing that now consistently for what 10 years, 15 years.... because I can tell that in my 27 years in the industry the best over the long run that I've seen just about come out even.


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## demoivre (24 Mar 2015)

Jim2007 said:


> And you have been doing that now consistently for what 10 years, 15 years.... because I can tell that in my 27 years in the industry the best over the long run that I've seen just about come out even.



16 years, highly leveraged product so returns not that spectacular. Plenty of people would love to work in your industry Jim....make no net contribution to the business over the long term and get paid for it !! Never heard the likes of it  Why on earth would you want to do something long term that didn't work  FWIW  I have always found my background in Mathematics much more useful than my background in Economics re trading. In particular a decent knowledge of probability is very useful. Over and out.


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## Gordon Gekko (24 Mar 2015)

The idea of being told how to make millions by a fella with holes in his shoes doesn't really float my boat. I've heard that such carry on is not uncommon at financial trading seminars.

demoivre, the last person who did what you purport to do was Walter Mitty Esquire. Are you posting live from your Sunseeker?


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## Sunny (25 Mar 2015)

demoivre said:


> 16 years, highly leveraged product so returns not that spectacular. Plenty of people would love to work in your industry Jim....make no net contribution to the business over the long term and get paid for it !! Never heard the likes of it  Why on earth would you want to do something long term that didn't work  FWIW  I have always found my background in Mathematics much more useful than my background in Economics re trading. In particular a decent knowledge of probability is very useful. Over and out.



That's funny.


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