# Social Distancing - debate on 1m v 2m



## odyssey06 (25 May 2020)

Interesting article on the RTE site on whether 2 metres is needed for social distancing, and whether 1 metre would suffice.
This has implications for capacity in the health service and return to work for businesses.

_The World Health Organization's Special Envoy on Covid-19, Dr David Nabarro, has said two-metre distance guidance "keeps you safe 99% of the time", but you can "greatly reduce your risk by maintaining a one-metre distance". Speaking on RTÉ's Today with Sarah McInerney, Dr Nabarro said that 70% of droplets from a person's cough will travel within one metre, and that "very few of them travel further than two metres". "The WHO and others have said the best distance to keep away from people if you want to avoid inhaling a droplet is two metres.  That's because that will keep you safe 99% of the time but you can greatly reduce risk even at one metre because 70% of the droplets will stick within one metre." _









						2m space 'keeps you safe 99% of the time' - WHO expert
					

The World Health Organization's Special Envoy on Covid-19, Dr David Nabarro, has said two-metre distance guidance "keeps you safe 99% of the time", but you can "greatly reduce your risk by maintaining a one-metre distance".




					www.rte.ie


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## Mouldy (25 May 2020)

Given that no one is actually social distancing (one or two metres) outside of monitored environments, the Government may as well reduce it to one and increase capacity where its needed.


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## Duke of Marmalade (25 May 2020)

Will the concept of a household or family unit be developed?  I would say that the majority of diners sharing tables in restaurants are part of the same unit.  Will we see people issued with Unit Cards whereby people from the same unit don't have to socially distance at all.


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## Mouldy (25 May 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Will the concept of a household or family unit be developed?  I would say that the majority of diners sharing tables in restaurants are part of the same unit.  Will we see people issued with Unit Cards whereby people from the same unit don't have to socially distance at all.



I really don't see that happening. And I'm not going anywhere where I have to sit two meters away from my friends/wife/mistress.


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## Sunny (25 May 2020)

Mouldy said:


> I really don't see that happening. And I'm not going anywhere where I have to sit two meters away from my friends/wife/mistress.



If that is a regular night out, it is probably a different type of virus you should be worried about!


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## Mouldy (25 May 2020)

Sunny said:


> If that is a regular night out, it is probably a different type of virus you should be worried about!



Of course I'm just kidding. I don't have any friends.


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## Mouldy (25 May 2020)

An effective level of social distancing can only be maintained by lockdown - forcing whole family units to stay at home. Since an eternal lockdown is not likely to happen, certain realities need to be faced from a socio-economic perspective.

Human beings do not social distance. The SD zealots who walk on the road to maintain two meters where the footpaths are narrow aren't really making any difference other that exponentially increasing their risk of death by car or bike.

The new data coming from European countries showing increased in cases is reflective of the realities of ending a lockdown and keeping families apart from other families. Given the low death rate and the staggering cost, both economically and socially, I don't think that the lockdowns will ever be reintroduced in the form that we have seen. A new data set will emerge showing the deathrate as it pertains to a functioning society. What that contains remains to be seen (models are not good predictors, despite that narratives floating around about Armageddon style death numbers if ABC isn't done.)

It is entirely likely that social distancing as a requirement for education centers, workplaces and retail will be eventually abandoned due to massive non compliance outside of enforced settings.

Children cannot and will not (ever) social distance. Nor should we make them; the idea that we should raise our families to eschew closeness to or  physical contact with their friends because of a virus that cannot hurt them would result in a seriously dysfunctional generation emerging - lets just say empathy would not be their strong point. This reality needs to inform the opening of schools and put an end to any half baked plans to social distance students. These same children will be playing in the park afterwards and will be all over each other.

Similarly for adults, there is now plenty of data about this virus for adults to use to determine whether or not they are at risk and certainly for their doctor or carer to help them decide. If someone is at risk, they should be entitled to extra supports from their employer and from the state to cope with this new threat. This may also result in a grim new reality for the affected group and their families, far from the nonsensical Utopian narratives being generated on social media about "the new normal". 

Where someone deems that they are not vulnerable, they should be allowed to go about their business insofar as they do not pose a threat to others. This should include going to a restaurant, going to get their haircut, having a pint at the counter of their favorite pub, flying on a plane.

In short, social distancing is not a long , or even short term measure that the state should be relying on to control the spread of the coronavirus. Targeted protection of the vulnerable is possible and would be a drop in the ocean of financial, psychological and developmental capital that we have, albeit with the best of intentions, squandered on the current crisis. The state should stop trying to protect me (I neither need nor want their protection) and work harder at protecting people like my 80 year old mother, who I may never see or hug again.

M


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## PaddyBloggit (25 May 2020)

I was in Lidl this morning and very little effort was made to social distance. It looked like business as usual from a customer point of view.

I used the sanitiser but the person before and after me didn't. Aisles were clogged with goods' trolleys and people were side by side around them in sauntering mode. As I was browsing the cooked meats' area, people stopped on both sides of me to do the same as me.

The cashier had a lovely perspex screen in front of her but I paid by card at the end of the conveyor where there was no perspex screen and we communicated quite freely without it.

If the 2m rule goes down to 1m, people will end up side by side.


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## Duke of Marmalade (25 May 2020)

There's talk now of a 1.5 metre compromise.  This is getting silly.  Will a radar app be developed for measuring distance from those evil humans?


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## Sunny (25 May 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> There's talk now of a 1.5 metre compromise.  This is getting silly.  Will a radar app be developed for measuring distance from those evil humans?



Yeah it is just playing political games now. Make it one metre to give businesses a chance. If people don't want to risk it, they can stay away like they are now....


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## Leo (26 May 2020)

Mouldy said:


> Where someone deems that they are not vulnerable...



I know high blood pressure is a significant risk factor, but I assume there is a scale to that I risk. Marginally above the threshold is low risk, very high pressure and COVID-19 contagion will be terminal?

It's estimated that over 50% of the Irish population over 45 suffer from high blood pressure, but the vast majority are undiagnosed / untreated. So a challenge we'll have is how many should be considered in the at-risk group, and how do people who don't go to a GP know they are high risk?


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## Purple (26 May 2020)

Leo said:


> I know high blood pressure is a significant risk factor, but I assume there is a scale to that I risk. Marginally above the threshold is low risk, very high pressure and COVID-19 contagion will be terminal?
> 
> It's estimated that over 50% of the Irish population over 45 suffer from high blood pressure, but the vast majority are undiagnosed / untreated. So a challenge we'll have is how many should be considered in the at-risk group, and how do people who don't go to a GP know they are high risk?


You can get your blood pressure checked for free in most Pharmacies.


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## Leo (26 May 2020)

Purple said:


> You can get your blood pressure checked for free in most Pharmacies.



Yep, and you can buy monitors for €20, the challenge is a lot of people don't want to know they have high blood pressure.


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## Purple (26 May 2020)

Leo said:


> Yep, and you can buy monitors for €20, the challenge is a lot of people don't want to know they have high blood pressure.


That's their problem and not a reason to keep kids locked up.


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## Leo (26 May 2020)

Purple said:


> That's their problem and not a reason to keep kids locked up.



I didn't suggest it was, just that mane people tend to be poor judges of their own vulnerability.


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## Purple (26 May 2020)

Leo said:


> I didn't suggest it was, just that mane people tend to be poor judges of their own vulnerability.


Sure, but the lesson of this whole thing is that people need to get some exercise, not get fat and generally look after themselves. The healthcare system is a kind of moral hazard for people who choose to live unhealthy lives. This disease has shown people that there is still a risk, albeit a small one in real terms.


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## Leo (26 May 2020)

Purple said:


> Sure, but the lesson of this whole thing is that people need to get some exercise, not get fat and generally look after themselves.



Very true, unfortunately coming out of this I don't see a majority taking real ownership for their own health, too many take too little care and expect the government or health service to pay the price.


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## Baby boomer (26 May 2020)

Purple said:


> Sure, but the lesson of this whole thing is that people need to get some exercise, not get fat and generally look after themselves. The healthcare system is a kind of moral hazard for people who choose to live unhealthy lives.


On the other hand, the fit and healthy will live long and expensive lives! Pensions, over-70s medical cards, knee and hip ops, cataracts, stents, a valve or two perhaps.


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## joe sod (27 May 2020)

While the risk increases by reducing distance to 1m we still need to get real and reduce it, at this stage the economy is becoming the more important issue, imposing 2m means many businesses won't bother opening, many more people left on government payments and a government financial crisis a year down the road. The bond markets might punish Ireland for its overly cautious stance on opening up.


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## Purple (27 May 2020)

Baby boomer said:


> On the other hand, the fit and healthy will live long and expensive lives! Pensions, over-70s medical cards, knee and hip ops, cataracts, stents, a valve or two perhaps.


Yep, and fat old people are the worst. At least smokers die more quickly!


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## Sunny (27 May 2020)

I think there has to be a certain amount of realism here. If you look at supermarkets at the moment, yes there is social distancing in the queues but I have yet to see a queue with 2 metres between people. Same when you get in store. There are less people in it but I have been less than 2 metres of people and staff on numerous occasions. And we haven't all come out of the store with the virus. All I hear at the moment is fear fear fear. Then I hear about how we can't keep borrowing. How we can't afford social welfare. Other Countries like Spain, France and Italy and now 2 weeks and more into their opening up and none of the Countries has seen a spike in infections. We are going to be living with this for a long time but we need to start living. 

They have completely lost the balance between public health and the economy which I can understand. Nobody wants to be accused of putting lives in danger but at this stage, they seem to be afraid to do anything unless the Chief Medical Officer says it is ok.


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## IsleOfMan (27 May 2020)

Was it Simon Harris who said that you have a 99% safety margin at two metres and 70+% at one metre.


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## EmmDee (27 May 2020)

Listen - they know that if they say 2m, people will keep 1.5m apart. If they say travel 5 km, people will probably go 10km. If they move to 1m it will effectively mean 0.5m. 

I'm sure they are letting the general activity push at those boundaries knowing it's a soft relaxation which will then be officially changed to 1m shortly. There is already a natural easing as mentioned - shops, beaches, parks are all slowly easing naturally


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## IsleOfMan (27 May 2020)

Leo said:


> I know high blood pressure is a significant risk factor, but I assume there is a scale to that I risk. Marginally above the threshold is low risk, very high pressure and COVID-19 contagion will be terminal?
> 
> It's estimated that over 50% of the Irish population over 45 suffer from high blood pressure, but the vast majority are undiagnosed / untreated. So a challenge we'll have is how many should be considered in the at-risk group, and how do people who don't go to a GP know they are high risk?



I bought one of the blood pressure testing kits. Tested myself over a few weeks at different times during the day. Also four or five times at the one sitting.  Lots of different readings but overall I had mild to moderate hypertension.

Having your blood pressure tested by your doctor can cause "white coat" results so having your own machine might eliminate this false reading.

I haven't used the machine in a while but I must dig it out and do another test.


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## Sunny (27 May 2020)

EmmDee said:


> Listen - they know that if they say 2m, people will keep 1.5m apart. If they say travel 5 km, people will probably go 10km. If they move to 1m it will effectively mean 0.5m.
> 
> I'm sure they are letting the general activity push at those boundaries knowing it's a soft relaxation which will then be officially changed to 1m shortly. There is already a natural easing as mentioned - shops, beaches, parks are all slowly easing naturally



I agree but the problem is that they are forcing the 2m restrictions on businesses like restaurants and bars as they plan to open up. They have already said the difference between opening and staying closed could be that 1m. The HSE itself has admitted that a 1m restriction would allow to carry out more day to day activities than they are currently restricted to with 2m social distance. There is no point carrying on with this 2m distance and making businesses plan around that only to announce in a couple of weeks, hey guys we have good news. It is only 1m. Make the decision now and save struggling businesses from wasting time and money


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## Leo (27 May 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> Having your blood pressure tested by your doctor can cause "white coat" results so having your own machine might eliminate this false reading.



Exactly why I bought one


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## michaelm (27 May 2020)

Sunny said:


> Make the decision now and save struggling businesses from wasting time and money


It's high time that the Minister came out from behind the CMO's skirt and made a sensible big picture decision.


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## odyssey06 (27 May 2020)

Sunny said:


> I agree but the problem is that they are forcing the 2m restrictions on businesses like restaurants and bars as they plan to open up. They have already said the difference between opening and staying closed could be that 1m. The HSE itself has admitted that a 1m restriction would allow to carry out more day to day activities than they are currently restricted to with 2m social distance. There is no point carrying on with this 2m distance and making businesses plan around that only to announce in a couple of weeks, hey guys we have good news. It is only 1m. Make the decision now and save struggling businesses from wasting time and money



I hope the HSE aren't trying to get rid of it for all activities though, 1m \ 70% effective might be ok for non patient facing activities.


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## Duke of Marmalade (27 May 2020)

IsleOfMan said:


> Having your blood pressure tested by your doctor can cause "white coat" results so having your own machine might eliminate this false reading.


It's not a false reading unless the machine is defective.  But it may not be an indicator of hypertension but rather of a pathological fear of men and women in white coats.  In which case a psychiatrist may be the required medical attention.


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## Purple (27 May 2020)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> In which case a psychiatrist may be the required medical attention.


...and get them to wear their white coat in order to see the symptoms.


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## The_Banker (27 May 2020)

The Chief Medical Officer has come out and said the 2 metre rules stays in place.

Meanwhile in the real world..

Kids are all playing with each other in the street but can’t go to school or play with their sports clubs.
Adult teams are training on open green areas as they can’t train on their own pitches.
Walking in my local greenway council workers with hi-viz jackets are employed to keep people apart although they are too embarrassed to approach anyone except teens who laugh at them, gardai are still stopping me driving to the shop asking me the purpose of my journey although they do look embarrassed to be asking.
meanwhile if I wanted to have a picnic and swill beer in a park with 3 of my bestest friends that’s ok.. but Easons cant open for me to buy a book.

if I own a cafe or pub I can spend a fortune to ensure customers stay 2 metres apart and then the CMO May announce it is to change to 1 metre..

as usual this country can never seen to get anything right but at least Boris is making us look half competent but to be honest it’s a low bar.


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## Sunny (27 May 2020)

I think the CMO is starting to forget that his job is to advise. His press briefings are beginning to sound like he is the one who will decide what happens. Also not sure about his attempts to rewrite history on nursing homes. He has been impressive during this but needs to be careful.


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## Drakon (2 Jun 2020)

10m is safer than 5m, is safer than 2m, is safer than 1m. 
But you have to be realistic.And if the WHO recommends an SD of 1m, then that would be the case. And I think we’ll set it to 1m by the time Phase 5 comes in. 
You can fit up to four times as many people is a given space where the SD is 1m rather than 2m. This will have an enormous difference on pubs, restaurants, etc.

I was in a supermarket recently and they had the usual C19 posters up, SD 2m, cough etiquette, etc.
But one of their aisles was particularly narrow and the posters had SD of 1m. 
I applaud their common sense approach.


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## Drakon (2 Jun 2020)

As a matter of interest, if you were to be technical about it, from where is the SD measurement taken?
Is it from a vertices line going up through a persons body, a few cm in front of the spine?
Or is it taken from a persons own circumference?
With the former a beanpole teenager and a super-size linebacker would have the same SD personal space. 
But with the latter the SD personal spaces could differ radically from one person to the next.


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## 24601 (2 Jun 2020)

Thousands of people marched through Dublin yesterday in solidarity with those protesting the killing of George Floyd in the US. This has predictably avoided what should have been universal condemnation by the Irish media. An Taoiseach even seems to have tweeted his support. There was very little social distancing possible given the size of the crowd. Why was this allowed to happen? The authority of the Government to keep businesses closed while the economy sails towards a cliff edge is totally undermined. Contact tracing is rendered impossible in Dublin should there be a spike in infections arising from this march. It's barely even being mentioned on the news this morning. 

Gemma O'Doherty and John Waters had about 20 people breaking the rules outside the Supreme Court and people were (rightfully) annoyed at the lack of enforcement by An Gardaí. Why do these people get a free pass? Why do they get to decide to put public health at risk in this country to march in solidarity with grievances experienced in another country? Who decides what is a good enough reason to completely disregard the law? Am I allowed organise a march in protest of the Yemeni Civil War or the dilution of democracy in Hungary?

It's a total slap in the face for all of us who have been obediently following the rules at great personal sacrifice. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1267460515225272322


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## Drakon (2 Jun 2020)

24601 said:


> Why was this allowed to happen?



There were about 100 at the protest on Saturday, and they were SD’ed.

The crowd yesterday was much bigger than expected, in the thousands. The organisers weren’t prepared for, or expecting, such an increase in numbers. By the time the organisers realised, it was too late and SD was not possible.

That’s why!


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## Drakon (2 Jun 2020)

Anyway, I’ve noticed that if it’s “cool”, or for charity, or “click-bait worthy”, violation the rules is acceptable.

Back in April, ever before Phase 0 and the easing of lockdown, a bunch of residents of a flat complex had a “socially distanced dance party” outside on the paths/routes/car parks.

RTÉ broadcast footage of it as their “feel good” story. What happened to #StayAtHome there?
Same with some ban Garda in Kerry, singing and dancing down a boreen with locals, sing Armadillo.


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## EmmDee (2 Jun 2020)

Drakon said:


> ... Armadillo.



I'm not sure if that was intentional or not - but it made me smile. Am now singing that instead. Thanks


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## llgon (2 Jun 2020)

Drakon said:


> Anyway, I’ve noticed that if it’s “cool”, or for charity, or “click-bait worthy”, violation the rules is acceptable.
> 
> Back in April, ever before Phase 0 and the easing of lockdown, a bunch of residents of a flat complex had a “socially distanced dance party” outside on the paths/routes/car parks.
> 
> ...



Agreed, I've posted before about the almost daily feel good stories on RTE News since the start of the restrictions which celebrate people breaking the restrictions. From what I saw locally over the past weekend, anybody who is currently obeying the restrictions is in a minority.


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## Sunny (2 Jun 2020)

llgon said:


> Agreed, I've posted before about the almost daily feel good stories on RTE News since the start of the restrictions which celebrate people breaking the restrictions. From what I saw locally over the past weekend, anybody who is currently obeying the restrictions is in a minority.



Well I would like to consider myself an average person who has adhered to the restrictions to as much as possible but I have to admit that even now, I am not observing 2m social distance. And neither is anyone else it seems. There is a distance and physical contact is still not happening but it is not 2 metres. I think the majority of people are now moving at a different speed to the Government. I think the vast majority are still being sensible and using their heads but I think people are also realistic as well.

That march in Dublin will be a good test case. It was pretty crazy but the thing that really annoyed me was the lack of political comment on it. If those crowds had gathered on a beach, you would have had every minister coming out but not here. Was it because it was a different social class gathering? The Guards hassled Debenham workers from protesting outside the shop on an empty street and yet there is nothing here. I think we are fast approaching the point where the Government will lose the majority of the population. And either we will escape with what they are warning us about or we won't and will have to live with the consequences.


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## Drakon (2 Jun 2020)

The Debenhams protests were before Phase 1 though, weren’t they?


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## Leo (2 Jun 2020)

Sunny said:


> If those crowds had gathered on a beach, you would have had every minister coming out but not here.



There were larger crowds on several beaches over the weekend and previous weekends. I didn't see every minister commenting on those...


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## Sunny (2 Jun 2020)

Leo said:


> There were larger crowds on several beaches over the weekend and previous weekends. I didn't see every minister commenting on those...



Not like the crowd that gathered on that march. I live near one of the popular beaches and there was a Gardai presence turning away cars and walking the beach telling people to social distance. We have heard the Heath Minister and the CMO talking about incidents that cause concern in the past. Leo came out last night on twitter basically supporting that march yesterday without commenting on the social distancing aspect. If that had been a bunch on inner city families having a street party, it would have been all over social media and they would have been much stronger reaction. Instead we have people on social media condemning the protest but silence from political leaders. I have no issue with the protest but we are either doing this or we are not. We have an economy that is still basically closed down. If no political leader can come out and condemn the people that took part in the march yesterday, well then it is obviously safe for large groups to gather outside. So if they can protest, my kids can play in the playground. Sports can start up again. We can attend outdoor concerts etc etc etc....

But of course it isn't politically smart for them to condemn it.


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## odyssey06 (2 Jun 2020)

Let's hope this might deter any more such nonsense from people more interested in irrelevant virtue signalling than actions in their own country to protect the vulnerable in this society...

GARDAÍ HAVE SAID they will be investigating all the circumstances surrounding the Black Lives Matter demonstration which took place in Dublin at the weekend in relation to potential breaches of Covid-19 regulations.








						Gardaí to investigate potential breaches of Covid regulations at Black Lives Matter demonstration in Dublin
					

Thousands of people took to the streets yesterday afternoon.




					www.thejournal.ie


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## Leo (2 Jun 2020)

Sunny said:


> If that had been a bunch on inner city families having a street party, it would have been all over social media and they would have been much stronger reaction.



There was a big one of those near where I live on Sunday, big generator running the PA system, the lot!!


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## odyssey06 (3 Jun 2020)

Followup march has been cancelled following correspondence from Gardai:








						Black Lives Matter protest planned for Dublin cancelled by organisers
					

Organisers have asked the public not to attend the event




					www.dublinlive.ie


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## Drakon (6 Jun 2020)

Heard Richard Corrigan on the radio this morning. He said he won’t be re-opening any of his restaurants if the SD is 2m. 
Said he needs 70% occupancy to break even and that is achievable with a 1m SD, in most of his premises.


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## Drakon (10 Jun 2020)

I’d be very slow to criticise Leo on his handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, but I think he badly needs to make a definitive final call on the Social Distancing debate. 

We’re all aware that an SD of 2m may result in many bars/restaurants/etc. never reopening. But a lot of bars/restaurants/etc. owners will not reopen until they know if SD will remain at 2m or if it will be set to the WHO SD of 1m. 

No owner wants to spend considerable amounts of money rearranging his/her premises, installing sneeze guards, screens, etc., to optimise the space for an SD of 2m, and then in a few weeks time be informed that an SD of 1m is now applicable. Then rip out everything and start again to optimise the space for the new SD.

Many of them will not reopen on Monday 29th June, and will wait and see.  They might reopen if Leo just came out and said it’ll be SD of 2m for the foreseeable future. But this grey area really isn’t helping things and though Leo has done a great job throughout the pandemic, he needs to call it ASAP: 2m or 1m!


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## Drakon (11 Jun 2020)

Fire Steakhouse & Bar in Dublin are reopening on 29th June with an SD of 1m.









						New restaurant rules: ‘It doesn’t make any sense to reopen’
					

Social-distancing rules could keep many restaurants closed. Others are hiking prices




					www.irishtimes.com


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## Purple (11 Jun 2020)

Interesting article from The Spectator in the UK today about the virus there being in decline due to social distancing before the lockdown.


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