# Dail Bar



## Sunny (12 Jul 2013)

Turns out that this lapgate politician was drinking before his inappropriate actions. The Dail must be one of the few places where people are allowed to drink while in work. Given the importance of the legislation, you would think they stay out of the bar for one night. Time to close it. Ridiculous. If that incident was part of the Anglo tapes, there would be uproar over the macho banking culture.


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## Latrade (12 Jul 2013)

Add to the drinking, groping a female colleague and we can further narrow down the workplaces where this behaviour would be permitted and laughed off.


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## delgirl (12 Jul 2013)

That's the problem with all the state employees, it doesn't matter what they do, they appear to be untouchable.

We've just had an incident in Wicklow where a circus with wild animals, including majestic, endangered Tigers, was allowed to set up on council land!

Although the Town Clerk took full responsibility, her excuse was:-

"She said she hadn’t yet had an opportunity to get to work on the bye-laws. In 2006, the Council had 10 staff members but that figure is now down to seven. 
One staff member has also been out on sick leave for the past three months and the council no longer get any cover. 
‘We are struggling to meet our regulatory requirements, never mind anything else.’ 
However, Ms Purcell said she took full responsibility for failing to check whether the circus contained animals or not. 
‘I put my hands up. I didn’t ask if they had wild animals. When I found out they did it was too late. I will ensure this doesn’t happen again with any circus.’ 

Not good enough, where is the accountability and diciplinary action.


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## Betsy Og (12 Jul 2013)

delgirl said:


> Not good enough, where is the accountability and diciplinary action.


 
In fairness isnt there accountability, she has accepted the blame, she is accountable (as compared to where the entire council gives a gallic shrug and no-one as such takes responsibility). 

As to whether disciplinary action is warranted, you'd have to investigate how reasonable her excuses are. I'd also draw a distinction that she didnt knowingly do something wrong, there's a difference between incompetence and malice (there was a maxim posted here about it recently, attributed to some guy, which said "always assume incompetence before malice"). Plus she made no personal gain from it.

So while it was a screw up, I would put it at the lighter end of the scale. I'm in the private sector btw, not in a union and zero time for them, in case anyone thinks this is "unionised" type thinking. I just think you're gone a bit OTT in this particular case. Screw ups happen in the private sector too .... just ask Anglo .... and I'm not giving them any fools pardon or assumed lack of malice!!!


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## Betsy Og (12 Jul 2013)

Just watched "lapgate" on youtube. I dont think its fair to say he groped her - not that I speak from experience .... your honour.... but I would have thought that groping focussed on particular areas of the anatomy.

That said it was definitely inappropriate, she didnt seem impressed - nor did she throw a wobbler either - I think its speculation whether drink played a role. In fairness to him it was clearly affectionate/playful rather than aggressive.

Overall I'd say its well down our list of problems and the public embarassment for him is probably punishment enough. (whereas if it had been unseen and she complained him then a fine, a stern warning etc would be in order).


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## Sunny (12 Jul 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> Just watched "lapgate" on youtube. I dont think its fair to say he groped her - not that I speak from experience .... your honour.... but I would have thought that groping focussed on particular areas of the anatomy.
> 
> That said it was definitely inappropriate, she didnt seem impressed - nor did she throw a wobbler either - I think its speculation whether drink played a role. In fairness to him it was clearly affectionate/playful rather than aggressive.
> 
> Overall I'd say its well down our list of problems and the public embarassment for him is probably punishment enough. (whereas if it had been unseen and she complained him then a fine, a stern warning etc would be in order).



It's not speculation. He admitted he had been drinking. I hate when things happen and people say things like it is well down our list of problems. Are we supposed be grateful every time something happens and say well at least it didn't bankrupt the Country. 

This wasn't normal run of the mill legislation. This was one of the most serious, sensitive and contentious pieces of law that this Dail will ever see. This elected official couldn't even stay out of the bar for one night and do his job. 

As for the lap thing. I think the pictures speak for themselves. Must try it on my colleague this afternoon. As long as I am laughing and not aggressive, she won't mind. It will be great craic.


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## Latrade (12 Jul 2013)

Sunny said:


> As for the lap thing. I think the pictures speak for themselves. Must try it on my colleague this afternoon. As long as I am laughing and not aggressive, she won't mind. It will be great craic.


 
Don't forget to have a few drinks first and wait for an very important meeting.


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## Betsy Og (12 Jul 2013)

Yes, now that you mention it, he should have been ritually disembowelled on the plinth of the dail that instant. On the plus side I might get to attend in person and throw rotten fruit at the gallows along with the baying mob.


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## Sunny (12 Jul 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> Yes, now that you mention it, he should have been ritually disembowelled on the plinth of the dail that instant. On the plus side I might get to attend in person and throw rotten fruit at the gallows along with the baying mob.



Thanks for once again proving that people get the politicians they deserve. Makes me laugh. We have a Government that is trying to ban alcohol sponsorship of sport and lecture us on alcohol abuse  and yet they allow their own private bar to serve alcohol all night during one of the most important debates this Country has had in years. Forgive me for expecting more. I obviously need to find a sense of humour.


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## Betsy Og (12 Jul 2013)

I actually agree with you on the bar point, drinking on the job is never wise. A reform of dail hours would be wise as well - I'd be wary of decisions made at 4 & 5 in the morning. What it does show is that most of the politicians know they are mere voting fodder. Its probably safe to conclude he realised he wasnt going to contribute to the legislation, his sole purpose for that 12 hour period was to press the button he was told to press when he was told to press it (a challenge, it seems, for some). If all these guys pre-registered their vote with the party line it would cut a lot of the pretence.

My point was more that there's a bit of an overreaction on the lap issue, I'm agreeing it wasnt appropriate but I dont think it warrants hysteria .. or much beyond a "you big eejit" reaction that apparently he got from his wife.


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## dave28 (13 Jul 2013)

He shouldnt have alcohol in his system while he was at work


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## Black Sheep (13 Jul 2013)

Is it necessary to make such important decisions in the middle of the night, with the Bar still open and people drifting in and out of there. Has this any affect on the very important discussions/ decisions apart altogether from lapgate.


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## Betsy Og (14 Jul 2013)

Black Sheep said:


> Has this any affect on the very important discussions/ decisions apart altogether from lapgate.



Due to the whip system I dont think so. I'm sure the few with  real input we're drinking much or at all.


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## delgirl (14 Jul 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> I'm sure the few with real input we're drinking ....


Yes, they probably were!  

... and do they even pay for their drinks or is it the taxpayer again?

Does anyone know of any other workplace that has a bar?

There's a poll here on whether it should be closed, restricted or left as is.


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## Brendan Burgess (14 Jul 2013)

I don't think that there is any evidence that the key speakers had been drinking. 

I can't remember any incidents of people making speeches in the Dáil while under the influence. 

The Dáil was very rowdy during the late night  IBRC debate and that seemed to be due to some drunken TDs. Gerry Adams claimed subsequently that at least 4 of them were very drunk.

The vast majority of TDs were just lobby fodder for the abortion votes.  Sure it was an important event. Sure they should have behaved with a bit of decorum. But if I was forced to stay up until 5 am just to say "Tá", I should be allowed to have a drink or two. 

The stupid behaviour of one TD should not affect the Dáil Bar. 

Those who have been drinking should be under strict instructions not to barrack the speakers.


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## Sunny (14 Jul 2013)

It doesn't really matter if they were drinking or not. Why is alcohol on sale in the middle of the night when they are working? Leave the Dail Bar but at least don't serve alcohol outside normal pub hours or while the house is sitting. I have often worked late at night and touching alcohol wasn't even a thought that crossed my mind. Even if I was on call, I wouldn't touch it. I enjoy a pint as much as anyone but there is a time and place. The majority of college students don't drink alcohol in college bars during the day while classes are on. Our politicians seem unable to the same. 

Asking the TD's to work until 5am was ridiculous but that's their own fault. They could have voted against the Government motion to do it.What were FG going to do? Expel all their TD's from the party? 

If saying that the majority of TD's serve no useful purpose in the Dail other than to vote Ta, then maybe it's time to ask why we have them there in the first place? I agree the whip system is almost undemocratic though.


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## Betsy Og (16 Jul 2013)

p.s. I think David Norris is misunderstood .......................... ah no, I'm only messing   I was about to say we dodged a bullet re that fella (& the presidency), but then I recall listening when Michael D called Cal Thomas something nautical.

What was Norris thinking??, there's no heading under which I could offer a defence for him, he doesnt even qualify for the cringey "sure it was only a bit of craic" defence.


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## TarfHead (16 Jul 2013)

Betsy Og said:


> .. but then I recall listening when Michael D called Cal Thomas something nautical.


 
It was Michael Graham who was called something that sounded like '_anchor_' by MDH.



Betsy Og said:


> What was Norris thinking??


 
The Senator never passes up an opportunity for a bit of self 'promotion'. Maybe John Waters is onto something when he claims that the liberals are the most intolerant of others ?

But Deputy Doherty really took the prize for '<_insert unflattering epithet here_> of the day'. Claiming that she was unaware of the Seanad before being asked about it in 2007 ? If true, it's an indictment of her education and of her understanding of her role as a public representative. If it's something she's spoofing about, to help the campaign for the abolition of the Seanad, then she deserves the prize for '<_insert unflattering epithet here_> of the year'.


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## Betsy Og (16 Jul 2013)

TarfHead said:


> It was Michael Graham who was called something that sounded like '_anchor_' by MDH.


 
Tis true for you. Mea culpa. Two similar guys performing the same role on two "parallel" programmes on two stations owned by the same people. Still, it seems to work.

'Careful now' on criticism of female politicians, they're an endangered species, in the current climate I'd say even the bould Mary Coughlan, were she to reappear, would be untouchable (pardon the pun) for the few weeks that are in it .


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## demoivre (16 Jul 2013)

Don't think you'd have the Troika heads having a few beers as they mull over our books . Wouldn't have a drink during work if it was free and it's the last thing I'd want if I had to stay awake until five in the morning work or no work!


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## Purple (16 Jul 2013)

TarfHead said:


> Maybe John Waters is onto something when he claims that the liberals are the most intolerant of others ?



Intolerance is not the preserve of the right or left, so-called liberal or conservative.
I don't think of Senator Norris as a liberal, he's way too intolerant of people who hold views he disagrees with to be called liberal.


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## T McGibney (16 Jul 2013)

Purple said:


> I don't think of Senator Norris as a liberal



He certainly labels himself as one.

On another level, I can't help fearing that his behaviour yesterday is related in some way to his recent disclosure that he is undergoing treatment for cancer. Very sad.


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## Sunny (16 Jul 2013)

Ah yes it has been another of couple of fine weeks for our esteemed politicians. It's surely time to look at the standard of the two houses when a so called debate ends up with someone being told that they are speaking through their fanny...... We really are lucky to have them. 

Although having seen Regina Doherty on Vincent Browne last night, I can see why poor David was riled up. Even though I can't believe he talked about offering an intellectual argument for his comments. Brought me back to the presidential campaign and his other so called intellectual arguments about young gay men.


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## Latrade (17 Jul 2013)

TarfHead said:


> ItMaybe John Waters is onto something when he claims that the liberals are the most intolerant of others?


 
Nah, tis just the tolerance paradox which is common enough on any area of the political scale. You simply cannot be 100% tolerant otherwise we would have to tolerate homophobes, racists, and all other forms of sub human behaviour. So when anyone preaches tolerance it is always with the caveat that they only tolerate those who agree with them. As I say, features within an political or social grouping.

It is an interesting reaction to these incidents though from those involved and the media. If they were to happen in any other workplace I wonder which would be seen as the greater wrong. I personally would feel the pulling a female colleague onto my lap as being far more demeaning and offensive than Norris' outburst. But then Doherty has taken much greater offence than lapgate.


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## DB74 (17 Jul 2013)

Latrade said:


> I personally would feel the pulling a female colleague onto my lap as being far more demeaning and offensive than Norris' outburst. But then Doherty has taken much greater offence than lapgate.



Both of which are in the ha'penny place when compared to something as serious as voting against the party line

It's a terrible pity the Seanad can't abolish the Dail at the same time as the Dail abolishes the Seanad and we can all start from scratch


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## TarfHead (17 Jul 2013)

Do you have to eligible to vote in Seanad elections, to be able to vote in for it's abolition / retention  ?


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## Sunny (17 Jul 2013)

TarfHead said:


> Do you have to eligible to vote in Seanad elections, to be able to vote in for it's abolition / retention  ?



Very good question!


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