# State as employer of last resort



## Firefly (19 Nov 2012)

Unbelievable stuff. The reds are certainly in the bed. 

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1117/teeu-portlaoise-conference.html


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## blueband (19 Nov 2012)

russia tried that once and we all know how that ended up!


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## Firefly (19 Nov 2012)

blueband said:


> russia tried that once and we all know how that ended up!


 
Exactly. What gets me is the mindset of someone so influential. The sooner we find the money tree at the end of the garden the better.


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## T McGibney (19 Nov 2012)

No need to talk about Russia, Ireland has been doing this since the 1970s with disastrous results.


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## celebtastic (19 Nov 2012)

Firefly said:


> The sooner we find the money tree at the end of the garden the better.



The "money tree" is the private sector worker - it has always been thus.

Who else has been paying for the Croke Park Agreement and giving young people €188 + rent allowance + this allowance and that allowance??


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## Time (21 Nov 2012)

T McGibney said:


> No need to talk about Russia, Ireland has been doing this since the 1970s with disastrous results.


True.

The state have been interfering with the real unemployment figures for years.
It would be interesting if they would finally publish what the real figures are taking into account all those on schemes, illness benefit etc etc.


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## Chris (22 Nov 2012)

The more often I hear these imbeciles prove their ignorance or stupidity in all economic matters, the more I hope that some country somewhere would actually follow their advice and pay half the unemployed to dig ditches and the other half to fill them in again.
Calling this man an idiot would be disingenuous to real idiots, so I'm open to suggestions on what to call him.


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## truthseeker (22 Nov 2012)

Time said:


> The state have been interfering with the real unemployment figures for years.
> It would be interesting if they would finally publish what the real figures are taking into account all those on schemes, illness benefit etc etc.



Schemes, illness benefit, slave labour (jobridge), people who do not qualify for a claim at all (self employed gone bust but fail means test for example), emigration figures, etc... The true figures are woefully under reported.


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## Purple (23 Nov 2012)

Chris said:


> The more often I hear these imbeciles prove their ignorance or stupidity in all economic matters, the more I hope that some country somewhere would actually follow their advice and pay half the unemployed to dig ditches and the other half to fill them in again.
> Calling this man an idiot would be disingenuous to real idiots, so I'm open to suggestions on what to call him.



Some country did, it's called North Korea.


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## Deiseblue (23 Nov 2012)

For more than a " sound bite " overview of ICTU's pre budget submissions I would refer posters to www.ictu.ie under the heading " shifting to growth & jobs " 

Mr Beggs specifically referenced the " great depression " & as such I would imagine that his views regarding state involvement were based more on FDR's New Deal than any other concept ?


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## Purple (23 Nov 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> For more than a " sound bite " overview of ICTU's pre budget submissions I would refer posters to www.ictu.ie under the heading " shifting to growth & jobs "
> 
> Mr Beggs specifically referenced the " great depression " & as such I would imagine that his views regarding state involvement were based more on FDR's New Deal than any other concept ?



That's the same New Deal that failed and kept the USA in recession for nearly 10 years longer that it should have been?


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## Deiseblue (23 Nov 2012)

Purple said:


> That's the same New Deal that failed and kept the USA in recession for nearly 10 years longer that it should have been?



No , that would be the New Deal that restored confidence in America's economy & dramatically reduced unemployment .

As I say www.ictu.ie details ICTU's pre budget submissions & perhaps people should reflect on same rather than on the one topic that Mr. Beggs states is a last resort ?


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## Purple (23 Nov 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> No , that would be the New Deal that restored confidence in America's economy & dramatically reduced unemployment .
> 
> As I say www.ictu.ie details ICTU's pre budget submissions & perhaps people should reflect on same rather than on the one topic that Mr. Beggs states is a last resort ?



That must be a different one to the FDR New Deal because that one did neither.
ICTU are a vested interest group who have a track record of being willing to damage the country in pursuit of their selfish agenda. They are proponents of a bankrupt ideology that undermines the freedom of the individual and are a destructive force both socially and economically. I give the same weight to their utterances on economic matters as I would to the race equality policies of the Klu Klux Klan.


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## Deiseblue (23 Nov 2012)

We have some of the most reasonable & responsible Trade Unions in the world , the Tallaght strategy being a case in point where Union involvement hastened the advent of the Celtic Tiger which unfortunately was thrown away by a combination of rapacious greed by our Bankers & developers with the collusion of FF.

Brian Lenihan memorably stated that if he had introduced the pension levy/pay cut in France than there would have been riots on French streets , the Unions here however hung fire knowing that although they could have brought the country to it's knees it was not the correct thing to do even allowing for the fact that our union density is 4 times that of France - hence we have the Croke Park Agreement & given the progress made it seems likely that " The Son of Croke Park " is on it's way.

Of course ICTU are a vested interest group given the fact that they are an umbrella group for Trade Unions representing 600,000 members - all such Unions main aim is to protect & if possible enhance terms & conditions - not a hard concept to understand surely ?

Needless to say I stand by my assertion that the New Deal restored confidence in America's economy & dramatically reduced unemployment.


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## Purple (23 Nov 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> We have some of the most reasonable & responsible Trade Unions in the world , the Tallaght strategy being a case in point where Union involvement hastened the advent of the Celtic Tiger which unfortunately was thrown away by a combination of rapacious greed by our Bankers & developers with the collusion of FF.


 The Tallaght Strategy was when Alan Dukes, as leader of FG, supported a minority FF government as long as they implemented economic policies they his party agreed with. It was a far sighted and selfless act so obviously the Trade Unions had nothing to do with it 
Your synopsis of evens is... heavily edited and rather selective.



Deiseblue said:


> Brian Lenihan memorably stated that if he had introduced the pension levy/pay cut in France than there would have been riots on French streets , the Unions here however hung fire knowing that although they could have brought the country to it's knees it was not the correct thing to do even allowing for the fact that our union density is 4 times that of France - hence we have the Croke Park Agreement & given the progress made it seems likely that " The Son of Croke Park " is on it's way.


 That’s like saying that a shop owner should be happy to pay protection money to one racket because the shop owners in the next street have to pay more to the other racket.  



Deiseblue said:


> Of course ICTU are a vested interest group given the fact that they are an umbrella group for Trade Unions representing 600,000 members - all such Unions main aim is to protect & if possible enhance terms & conditions - not a hard concept to understand surely ?


 No, we’re in agreement on that. They’ve done a great job of it over the last 20 years; massive increases in public sector wages, registered trade agreements, resisting change and modernisation etc. And none of that had any negative impact on the rest of the country at all!



Deiseblue said:


> Needless to say I stand by my assertion that the New Deal restored confidence in America's economy & dramatically reduced unemployment.


 I’m sure David Begg agrees with you.


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## Firefly (23 Nov 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> As I say www.ictu.ie details ICTU's pre budget submissions & perhaps people should reflect on same rather than on the one topic that Mr. Beggs states is a last resort ?


 
Hi Deise,

Thanks for the link. Took a stab at critiquing it here http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=174709


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## T McGibney (24 Nov 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> We have some of the most reasonable & responsible Trade Unions in the world , the Tallaght strategy being a case in point where Union involvement hastened the advent of the Celtic Tiger which unfortunately was thrown away by a combination of *rapacious greed by our Bankers & developers with the collusion of FF. *
> 
> .



You do realise the irony that this thread is about comments by David Begg, Director of the Irish Central Bank during the Ahern/Cowen era?


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## Deiseblue (24 Nov 2012)

Purple said:


> The Tallaght Strategy was when Alan Dukes, as leader of FG, supported a minority FF government as long as they implemented economic policies they his party agreed with. It was a far sighted and selfless act so obviously the Trade Unions had nothing to do with it
> Your synopsis of evens is... heavily edited and rather selective.
> 
> That’s like saying that a shop owner should be happy to pay protection money to one racket because the shop owners in the next street have to pay more to the other racket.
> ...



Mr. Shatter was indeed the architect of the Tallaght strategy & was aware that for the strategy to work the Unions had to buy into same , to their immense credit the Unions did so & accepted modest wage increases & delivered industrial peace in exchange for beneficial changes to the tax system.

Such tax changes benefited all PAYE workers , the wages increases benefited all Unionised workers & the majority of non Unionised workers as employers paid the increases negotiated under the various national wage agreements as they found same to be reasonable.

It amuses me that when people have a difficulty with national wage agreements , benchmarking & the CPA it is always the Unions that catch the flak - Such agreements are negotiated by both parties to such agreements - the employers & the Unions representing employees.

Benchmarking was of course a different matter - the reports were delivered by independent bodies.

I'm sure that Mr. Beggs does agree with me re the benefits of the New Deal , that makes 2 of us to your one


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## Deiseblue (24 Nov 2012)

T McGibney said:


> You do realise the irony that this thread is about comments by David Begg, Director of the Irish Central Bank during the Ahern/Cowen era?



Mr. Begg's role in the Central Bank has never been forensically dissected by the Irish media - not even by the Indo.

Perhaps because Mr. Beggs was on the Internal Audit committee & was not privy to the info on the Banks ?


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## T McGibney (24 Nov 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> Mr. Begg's role in the Central Bank has never been forensically dissected by the Irish media - not even by the Indo.
> 
> Perhaps because *Mr. Beggs was on the Internal Audit committee* & was not privy to the info on the Banks ?



Internal audit? Its getting worse.

What did David Begg have to say when SIPTU chiefs purposely failed to comply with Accounting Standard FRS17 in preparing their accounts, thus necessitating a qualified audit report?

 [broken link removed]


And are you telling me that as a Central Bank director, David Begg did not attend board meetings nor exercise the statutory duty of care responsibilities that attach to directors.


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## Deiseblue (24 Nov 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Internal audit? Its getting worse.
> 
> What did David Begg have to say when SIPTU chiefs purposely failed to comply with Accounting Standard FRS17 in preparing their accounts, thus necessitating a qualified audit report?
> 
> ...



As far as I am aware Mr. Beggs remit was involved with the internal audit procedures of the Central Bank itself not the Banks falling under it's bailiwick.

I have no idea what Mr. Beggs had to say about SIPTU's stance on completing their accounts , do you ? - were SIPTU within their rights to take the course of action they did ?

To be honest I doubt if Mr. Beggs expressed any opinion - after all SIPTU are an autonomous body & are quite capable of defending their position.

Has there ever been any suggestion that Mr. Beggs behaved inappropriately in his role as a director of the Central Bank ?


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## Delboy (25 Nov 2012)

whats with all this 'Mr Beggs'....i did'nt think the comrades referred to each other like that!


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## Deiseblue (25 Nov 2012)

Delboy said:


> whats with all this 'Mr Beggs'....i did'nt think the comrades referred to each other like that!



I do not know him personally - so Mr. Beggs is the correct form of address.

Awight Delboy  , cushty !


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## Delboy (25 Nov 2012)

you don't know me either...so its Mr Delboy, si'l vous plait!


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## Deiseblue (25 Nov 2012)

Fromage frais , bonnet de douche , excusez moi  - Monsieur Delboy it is !


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## Purple (26 Nov 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> It amuses me that when people have a difficulty with national wage agreements , benchmarking & the CPA it is always the Unions that catch the flak - Such agreements are negotiated by both parties to such agreements - the employers & the Unions representing employees.


The first national wage agreement was a success but the agreements morphed into grand plans to cover all aspects of economic and social policy and were not costed and undemocratic as they constrained the function of the Dail. I have been very critical of Comrade Ahern, one of only two socialists on the Dail, for his role in these Chinese style grand plans so I hope you don’t include me in that group. 
The agreements may have been negotiated between the unionised managers of unionised companies/ state bodies/ “commercial” semi-states etc and the unionised employees of those bodies. Then there were the unionised civil servants in the middle who had would derive a direct benefit from large pay increases. 
Unfortunately the people who had to pay for the whole jamboree weren’t at the table. 



Deiseblue said:


> Benchmarking was of course a different matter - the reports were delivered by independent bodies.


Yes, open, clear and transparent it was too. That’s why it was published along with the criteria used to decide who got what from the Benchmarking ATM. Oh no, hang on.... 



Deiseblue said:


> I'm sure that Mr. Beggs does agree with me re the benefits of the New Deal , that makes 2 of us to your one


 Yep, a man who supports North Korean style job creation practices. There’s a guy to lean your economic arguments against!  (is it allowed to use the same one twice?)


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## Deiseblue (26 Nov 2012)

I think you will find that Mr. Beggs referred to the state as employers of last resort - he specifically referenced FDR's New Deal ( the success or lack of same is obviously something we differ on ) - any parallels with North Korea are a bit extreme I would have thought.

The electorate mandated Governments , successive Governments then decided that our economy was best sustained by entering into National Wage Agreements which guaranteed industrial harmony & thus benefited employers & provided employees with modest increases allied to beneficial tax changes.

The Government involved the social partners as being the most representative organised bodies - what other option was feasible if they felt that NWA's were the right option ?

As I said the Benchmarking bodies who delivered the various reports were independent  , perhaps the criteria you seek is available via an FOI request ?

The Benchmarking reports are available online - a plethora of info is contained therein - be warned though the individual reports run to over 200 pages


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## Firefly (26 Nov 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> The electorate mandated Governments , successive Governments then decided that our economy was best sustained by entering into National Wage Agreements


 
Governments were elected to govern, but I think it's a stretch to say that their raison d'etre was to carry out National Wage Agreements.



Deiseblue said:


> As I said the Benchmarking bodies who delivered the various reports were independent , perhaps the criteria you seek is available via an FOI request ?
> 
> The Benchmarking reports are available online - a plethora of info is contained therein - be warned though the individual reports run to over 200 pages


 
Now that we have 400k people on the dole would it not make sense to conduct another round of benchmarking or is it that benchmarking is like upard-only rent reviews?


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## Deiseblue (26 Nov 2012)

Firefly said:


> Governments were elected to govern, but I think it's a stretch to say that their raison d'etre was to carry out National Wage Agreements.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that we have 400k people on the dole would it not make sense to conduct another round of benchmarking or is it that benchmarking is like upard-only rent reviews?



That's a bit of a stretch - I never suggested that the Government's raison d'être ( quite a bit of French emerging in this thread  ) was to implement NWA'S , I simply stated that as they felt that such Agreements were the correct option then they had the mandate to do so.

I don't think a further benchmarking exercise is a runner at the moment as currently the CPA is the only game in town.

Perhaps the fact that the last benchmarking report allowed for the benefit that is the PS pension & the fact that previous benchmarking increase have been effectively nullified by the average 15% pay cuts may be further reasons why we not see a further exercise in the short term.


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## Firefly (26 Nov 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> I don't think a further benchmarking exercise is a runner at the moment as currently the CPA is the only game in town.


 
That's kinda handy isn't it? Ah well, sure I suppose we'll just have to continue borrowing so.



Deiseblue said:


> Perhaps the fact that the last benchmarking report allowed for the benefit that is the PS pension & the fact that previous benchmarking increase have been effectively nullified by the average 15% pay cuts may be further reasons why we not see a further exercise in the short term.


 
Sorry for being pedantic, but I think the relatively small contribution to such a fantastic pension scheme (compared to what most in the private sector wil get) is a deduction from pay rather than a "pay-cut". A pay cut IMO is when your salary is reduced by your employer by means of getting a letter from HR stating that your new salary will be X.


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## Deiseblue (26 Nov 2012)

Firefly said:


> That's kinda handy isn't it? Ah well, sure I suppose we'll just have to continue borrowing so.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for being pedantic, but I think the relatively small contribution to such a fantastic pension scheme (compared to what most in the private sector wil get) is a deduction from pay rather than a "pay-cut". A pay cut IMO is when your salary is reduced by your employer by means of getting a letter from HR stating that your new salary will be X.



I would consider it a reality rather than "kinda handy " - the Croke Park Agreement guarantees no reduction in core pay & a continuing pay freeze is being imposed , a benchmarking exercise currently therefore would be an exercise in futility.

Brian Lenihan referred to the levy as a pay cut & he was the one who introduced it !


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## Complainer (1 Dec 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> Mr. Begg's role in the Central Bank has never been forensically dissected by the Irish media - not even by the Indo.
> 
> Perhaps because Mr. Beggs was on the Internal Audit committee & was not privy to the info on the Banks ?



Or perhaps because a Board member in a minority of one has little chance of getting his way at a Board meeting?


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## celebtastic (1 Dec 2012)

Firefly said:


> Now that we have 400k people on the dole would it not make sense to conduct another round of benchmarking or is it that benchmarking is like upard-only rent reviews?



Long overdue - but the government dont have the spine to stand up to the public sector unions


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## T McGibney (2 Dec 2012)

Complainer said:


> Or perhaps because a Board member in a minority of one has little chance of getting his way at a Board meeting?



If any director finds himself or herself in such a position, remaining silent is NOT an option. Otherwise they become complicit in any wrongdoings. David Begg is no novice or idiot, and, as a veteran union leader and company director, should be acutely aware of this. (So, I expect, should you.)


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## Complainer (2 Dec 2012)

T McGibney said:


> If any director finds himself or herself in such a position, remaining silent is NOT an option. Otherwise they become complicit in any wrongdoings. David Begg is no novice or idiot, and, as a veteran union leader and company director, should be acutely aware of this. (So, I expect, should you.)



There is a difference between 'wrongdoings' and disagreements of policy. To me, wrongdoings are fraud etc, and I agree that a Director either fixes it or resigns in such cases. In disagreements of policy, a minority director is in an invidious position. If they resign, they allow the others to continue on without them, and probably make things even worse. If they remain in place, they may well be able to take some actions to minimise the effects of the decisions. Neither you nor I have any real idea of what Begg said or did in his time as a Director of the bank.

It's the same arguement about being the minority party in a coalition Govt. Do you remain in place and get some bits of your policy programme implemented, or walk out and get none of your policy programme implemented?


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## Firefly (3 Dec 2012)

Complainer said:


> Or perhaps because a Board member in a minority of one has little chance of getting his way at a Board meeting?


 
Lame and not true because...



Complainer said:


> It's the same arguement about being the minority party in a coalition Govt. Do you remain in place and get some bits of your policy programme implemented, or walk out and get none of your policy programme implemented?


 
...You've repeatedly lambasted the PDs for the policies they implemented whilst a minority party.


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## Purple (6 Dec 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> The Benchmarking reports are available online - a plethora of info is contained therein - be warned though the individual reports run to over 200 pages


 But the criteria used to come up with it's findings are not given. That's always been the problem.


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## Chris (6 Dec 2012)

Deiseblue said:


> No , that would be the New Deal that restored confidence in America's economy & dramatically reduced unemployment .




Hoover's and FDR's actions turned a regular depression into the Great Depression, they did not end it. No historic facts can back up a claim that the New Deal actually made things better for the US economy and its citizens:
- Hoover introduced massive spending programs, that FDR criticized during his election campaign
- Once in power FDR expanded the policies of Hoover increasing state spending even more
- An example of the idiocy of the New Deal: it paid farmers to destroy crops and livestock in order to boost prices, while at the same time people were starving because they couldn't afford higher food prices
- From 1933 to 1940 average unemployment was 18.5%, while for the years of 1930 to 1940 the average was 17.8%
- after the first year of depression unemployment was 8.7%
- unemployment rates did not return to normal levels until 1946
- after the first year of depression GDP was down 11%
- pre depression GDP was not achieved until 1940 and then only because of a massive increase in state spending on the war
- the depression did not end until 1946 when spending was finally cut

Contrast this to the depression of 1920/21:
- after the first year of depression GDP was down 17%
- after the first year of depression unemployment was 8.7% and heading up
- unemployment rates returned to normal levels by 1923
- pre depression GDP was achieved within 3 years
- the depression was over within 18 months

So what was the difference between two depressions that started their life in very similar fashion, i.e. same employment and GDP decrease? While Hoover and FDR massively increased spending and taxation over 16 years Harding cut spending and taxation by 50% in 18 months.

What is now being advocated is exactly what caused the great Depression to last 16 years, not what solved it.

What facts do you base your opinion about FDR and the New Deal on?

Sources:
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1528.html
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com...011mcn__US_Gross_Domestic_Product_GDP_History
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_of_1920–21#cite_note-Vernon-2
[broken link removed]


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## T McGibney (7 Dec 2012)

Complainer said:


> There is a difference between 'wrongdoings' and disagreements of policy. To me, wrongdoings are fraud etc, and I agree that a Director either fixes it or resigns in such cases. In disagreements of policy, a minority director is in an invidious position.



But what went wrong in the Central Bank during Begg's time as director was not a mere "disagreement of policy".  The Bank presided over a state of affairs that caused the utter collapse of the financial system and the  wholesale impoverishment of its citizens. 

It is clear to me that this involved a massive dereliction of duty, for which the directors must be accountable at least to some extent.


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## Delboy (14 Jan 2016)

It looks like Begg did such a good job at the Central Bank that the Labour Party has broken the rules on appointments to State Agencies to get up his latest cushty role
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...id-begg-to-chair-pensions-authority-1.2495726


> [broken link removed], the former general secretary of the [broken link removed], is to chair the [broken link removed] for a five-year term, the Tánaiste [broken link removed] has announced.
> Mr Begg will succeed [broken link removed], who has been chair of the authority since June 2010.
> Ms Burton, who is also Minister for Social Protection, said that as as former union leader, Mr Begg’s “demonstrated ability to work with different perspectives will prove invaluable” to the pensions body, which is responsible for the reform and simplification of the Irish pensions system.
> He has also spent periods as chief executive of Concern Worldwide, a director of the Central Bank and a member of the National Economic and Social Council. He is a director of the economic thinktank TASC and a former governor of the Irish Times Trust.


The whole Pensions problem in this country will be sorted out in rapid to note. 
They forgot to mention his time on the Aerlingus board...maybe they ran out of space


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## Purple (19 Jan 2016)

Delboy said:


> It looks like Begg did such a good job at the Central Bank that the Labour Party has broken the rules on appointments to State Agencies to get up his latest cushty role
> http://www.irishtimes.com/business/...id-begg-to-chair-pensions-authority-1.2495726
> 
> The whole Pensions problem in this country will be sorted out in rapid to note.
> They forgot to mention his time on the Aerlingus board...maybe they ran out of space


We can all relax; it'll be sorted in no time.


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