# Reclining seats on economy flights



## liaconn (3 Jun 2008)

I saw two arguments on an economy flight home from Brussels last week, over people in front reclining their seats back on already cramped passengers. Does anyone else think this behaviour is very unfair nowadays, when the space between seats has been greatly reduced.


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## mf1 (3 Jun 2008)

I suppose the only answers are 

a. Do not have reclining seats at all so everyone has the same space ?
or 
b. Everyone reclines so everyone has the same amount of space? 

I was driving in this morning and watched, fascinated, as an ambulance with sirens blaring came from the opposite direction - most cars indicated to pull in, to let the ambulance through,  apart from one young female driver who appeared oblivious to the sirens and flashing lights behind her and only moved afetr a very persistent ambulance driver flashed her repeatedly! 

I formed the, perhaps unfair, view, after reading the post,  that she would be the one reclining her seat in crowded economy class. 

mf


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## BOXtheFOX (3 Jun 2008)

Had it on a 6 hour flight from Boston. My seat was against a bulkhead so I couldn't recline mine even a bit to escape. Even when the food was being passed around I had to call an air hostess an ask her to tell the person in front to straighten her seat. As we were leaving the plane I saw that this person and her family had left piles of rubbish behind them scattered across their seating area. No consideration for anyone. If only I had a bit of chewed chewing gum at the time.......


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## ClubMan (3 Jun 2008)

People who recline their seats on airplanes also eat their young, read with their mouths gaping and buy _Westlife _albums too.


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## liaconn (3 Jun 2008)

Sometimes digging your knees into the back of the seat a couple of times gives them the hint (although people who recline their seats are usually prettythick skinned).


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## rmelly (3 Jun 2008)

A guy did this to me on a flight from US once, so I shoved my knee in the back of his seat for a while (an hour) and after looking around at me a few times he decided to un-recline his seat.


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## ClubMan (3 Jun 2008)

Have people never thought of just politely *asking *the person in front to "un-recline" their seat if it is causing them discomfort?


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## liaconn (3 Jun 2008)

A friend of mine did, and the guy just completely ignored her.  To be honest, I think the kind of people who do this with their seats are usually a bit ignorant and wouldn't be beyond making a rude or sarcastic response which I would find embarassing in front of other passengers.


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## Purple (3 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Have people never thought of just politely *asking *the person in front to "un-recline" their seat if it is causing them discomfort?



Is that really a good idea since



ClubMan said:


> People who recline their seats on airplanes also eat their young, read with their mouths gaping and buy _Westlife _albums too.


?


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## ClubMan (3 Jun 2008)

My facetious comment above is as puerile as running off telling tales to the cabin crew or sticking your knees into the seat in front instead of just politely talking to the person...


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## Purple (3 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> My facetious comment above is as puerile as running off telling tales to the cabin crew or sticking your knees into the seat in front instead of just politely talking to the person...



It's not that bad.

I do agree that simply asking usually does the trick. Most people apologise and feel embarrassed when asked to straighten their seat.



If that doesn't work just stick gum in their hair and knee them in the back. If that doesn’t work try asking an air marshal to shoot the offending party. This option should only by used as a last resort.


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## liaconn (3 Jun 2008)

_I do agree that simply asking usually does the trick. Most people apologise and feel embarrassed when asked to straighten their seat._



Not the people on the Brussels flight. They appeared to be highly indignant. I would have been very embarassed if I was the unfortunate girl who had asked one of the guys to move his seat forward.


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## z103 (3 Jun 2008)

A. There is now available a contraption that stops people from reclining aircraft seats. 

B. I believe the new Ryanair fleet doesn't have the option of reclining seats.



> Have people never thought of just politely *asking *the person in front to "un-recline" their seat if it is causing them discomfort?


What if you're not a 'people person'? It's not like these recliners do not know the ramifications for their actions. I would prefer the knee option myself (or the apparatus above)


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## Auntie (3 Jun 2008)

liaconn said:


> Does anyone else think this behaviour is very unfair nowadays, when the space between seats has been greatly reduced.


 
I was only thinking this last night on a flight from Heathrow when the girl next to me reclined her seat. The seat in front of me was soooo near (more than it has seemed before and definitely more than on the way over - is the A321 more tightly packed than the A320 on Aer Lingus??) and I thought - if he reclines that seat, it is actually going to touch my face!!

Coming from Edinburgh in March, three people around me reclined - including the person in front of me. It drives me mad, those short haul aircraft should not have reclining seats. No-one needs to recline for a 45 minute flight. 



rmelly said:


> A guy did this to me on a flight from US once, so I shoved my knee in the back of his seat for a while (an hour) and after looking around at me a few times he decided to un-recline his seat.


 
Although I have to disagree about the transatlantics, I think people should be allowed to recline on a long (especially overnight) flight. If the person behind doesn't like it, then they should recline too.


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## Sunny (3 Jun 2008)

Sign of things to come if you think reclining seats are a problem!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aJmRIapedEs0&refer=news


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## pc7 (3 Jun 2008)

I was on a 4 1/2 hour flight and the seat in front had their seat reclined, I'm above average height for a woman and was squashed and put my seat back. The woman behind me (who was very small) gave out to me and told me to put mine forward. I said I'd love too if the person in front of me did the same, the person in front wouldn't and so I didn't. The woman behind me got very angry and agressive with me, I told her to call the air hostess and once I'd some room from in front of me I'd oblige. She just mubled and moaned the whole way, in fairness if she had of asked me nicely I probably would have put up with the discomfort but the fact she was so rude I didn't bother! I advised her to fly first class next time if she'd such an issue.


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## shnaek (3 Jun 2008)

leghorn said:


> B. I believe the new Ryanair fleet doesn't have the option of reclining seats.



That's true, thankfully. I was on a flight to London last year and nearly lost my kneecap when the person in front of me undertook a particularly vigorous seat recline manoeuvre. You know the one where they sit forward, push the 'recline' button, and then slam back into the seat to make sure it goes as far back as possible. Right on my kneecap. Ouch.


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## ClubMan (3 Jun 2008)

leghorn said:


> What if you're not a 'people person'?


You mean unable to carry on the most basic of conversations with another human being? Sorry - I didn't realise that we were catering for complete morons here.


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## liaconn (3 Jun 2008)

pc7 said:


> I was on a 4 1/2 hour flight and the seat in front had their seat reclined, I'm above average height for a woman and was squashed and put my seat back. The woman behind me (who was very small) gave out to me and told me to put mine forward. I said I'd love too if the person in front of me did the same, the person in front wouldn't and so I didn't. The woman behind me got very angry and agressive with me, I told her to call the air hostess and once I'd some room from in front of me I'd oblige. She just mubled and moaned the whole way, in fairness if she had of asked me nicely I probably would have put up with the discomfort but the fact she was so rude I didn't bother! I advised her to fly first class next time if she'd such an issue.


 
I'll definitely be sticking to the knee in the back routine!


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## z103 (3 Jun 2008)

> You mean unable to carry on the most basic of conversations with another human being? Sorry - I didn't realise that we were catering for complete morons here.


We aren't 'catering for complete morons', that is simply your ill-founded assumption.

Many autistic people would not relish social interaction, or have the most basic of conversational skills, but I certainly wouldn't classify them as 'morons'.


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## Mel (3 Jun 2008)

I find this post unbelievable - I was once shouted at and had my seat pushed aggressively by the person sitting behind me who took exception to me reclining it at midnight on a transatlantic flight. Food service finished, lights dimmed... 

I just assumed she was unused to flying, and ignored her, I didn't call the attendants as I didn't want to make a bigger scene... 

Are we supposed to sit bolt upright for anywhere between 6 and 13 hours?


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## ClubMan (3 Jun 2008)

leghorn said:


> Many autistic people would not relish social interaction, or have the most basic of conversational skills, but I certainly wouldn't classify them as 'morons'.


Yeah - obviously I was talking about autistic people above...


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## liaconn (3 Jun 2008)

_I find this post unbelievable - I was once shouted at and had my seat pushed aggressively by the person sitting behind me who took exception to me reclining it at midnight on a transatlantic flight. Food service finished, lights dimmed... 

I just assumed she was unused to flying, and ignored her, I didn't call the attendants as I didn't want to make a bigger scene... 

Are we supposed to sit bolt upright for anywhere between 6 and 13 hours?_

I was talking about a short haul, economy flight.One and a half hours, to be precise. If you were on a bus or a train for an hour and a half you'd have to just sit up straight. I agree that, on transatlantic flights, there should be the facility to put your seat back, but there should also be enough space between rows to allow for this. 

In general, I don't think it should be left up to paying customers to have to confront each other over this issue. There should be a policy on short flights that seats must be kept upright, and sufficient space on long haul crafts to allow for seats to be reclined.


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## MrMan (3 Jun 2008)

> You mean unable to carry on the most basic of conversations with another human being? Sorry - I didn't realise that we were catering for complete morons here.



Some people are uncomfortable when it comes to confronting others even for the most trivial of matters, and then of course there are those that would take umbrage from being asked to move their seat. Everyone is different, some people are socially inept some are less than comfortable on forums, neither could be classed as morons imo.


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## z103 (3 Jun 2008)

> Yeah - obviously I was talking about autistic people above.


I wouldn't classify all austistic people as morons. Strange that you were only referring to them. Why do you think that all autistic people are morons?

As well as many autistic people, many introverted people would also not want to verbally confront 'seat recliners'. I wouldn't say that all introverted people were morons either.

In fact, I would suggest that morons only make up quite a small percentage of people unwilling to verbally confront 'seat recliners'.


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## Sunny (3 Jun 2008)

leghorn said:


> I wouldn't classify *all* austistic people as morons.


 

So you would consider some to be? Far be it for me to fight to Clubman's battles but why is he being accused of calling austisic people morons when he said nothing of the sort??


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## MrMan (3 Jun 2008)

> So you would consider some to be? Far be it for me to fight to Clubman's battles but why is he being accused of calling austisic people morons when he said nothing of the sort??



I think leghorn decided to take clubman at his word because when he has been brought to task on a topic he sometimes uses the sarcastic tone in his earlier reply, 





> Yeah - obviously I was talking about autistic people above...



I would have thought that clubmans previous comment was more offensive than leghorns interpretation.



> You mean unable to carry on the most basic of conversations with another human being? Sorry - I didn't realise that we were catering for complete morons here.


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## shnaek (3 Jun 2008)

liaconn said:


> In general, I don't think it should be left up to paying customers to have to confront each other over this issue. There should be a policy on short flights that seats must be kept upright, and sufficient space on long haul crafts to allow for seats to be reclined.


This is the solution. We should bring it to world government and have it implemented immediately.


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## Sunny (3 Jun 2008)

shnaek said:


> This is the solution. We should bring it to world government and have it implemented immediately.


 
I think the European Court of Human Rights are due to make a ruling on the whole issue in the next few weeks so we should probably hang on till then.


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## liaconn (3 Jun 2008)

Sunny said:


> I think the European Court of Human Rights are due to make a ruling on the whole issue in the next few weeks so we should probably hang on till then.


 

Eh, I said a 'policy' , as in something Aer Lingus should introduce and implement themselves, not 'a European Directive to be transposed into national legislation' so not sure where the sarcasm is coming from.


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## Teabag (3 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Yeah - obviously I was talking about autistic people above...



Hee Hee. Clubman, do you ever PM yourself telling yourself that you broke 'posting guidelines' ? Can I call people 'morons' now ?


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## so-crates (3 Jun 2008)

liaconn said:


> Eh, I said a 'policy' , as in something Aer Lingus should introduce and implement themselves, not 'a European Directive to be transposed into national legislation' so not sure where the sarcasm is coming from.


What might be more useful to us long suffering passengers but certainly not welcome to the airlines would be an increase in the minimum seat pitch and seat width. For short-haul the minimum distance is a pretty miserly 26 inches I believe in the UK (I don't know what it is here). It is just too little, irrespective of whether someone reclines or not. I don't think that there is an EU-wide norm for this, I think it is set by individual regulatory bodies but an extra few inches would certainly be a blessing for anyone who automatically aims for the emergency exits on a RyanAir flight because they know they get a tiny bit more room. Also  bulkhead seats on long distance flights should explicitly in the regulations have additional room as it is patently unfair when they cannot recline.

I would disagree on whether or not reclining should be available on short-haul, it is just manners that need mending not seats. Generally if I want to recline (short or long-haul), I will check behind, if the person behind is asleep or lying back I will recline, otherwise I won't.


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## liaconn (4 Jun 2008)

so-crates said:


> I would disagree on whether or not reclining should be available on short-haul, it is just manners that need mending not seats. Generally if I want to recline (short or long-haul), I will check behind, if the person behind is asleep or lying back I will recline, otherwise I won't.


 

The problem is that a lot of people don't have your good manners and its very difficult to change this. A friend of mine asked an air hostess recently if she could ask the guy behind her to stop repeatedly kicking her seat. The air hostess said they're not allowed intervene in situations like this. If its considered risky for cabin crew to confront ignorant passengers, then its equally risky for other passengers to do it. That's why I think there should be clear policies and guidelines that everyone understands - or, as socrates says, realistic minimum space requirements between seat rows.


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## Mel (4 Jun 2008)

so-crates said:


> it is just manners that need mending not seats. Generally if I want to recline (short or long-haul), I will check behind, if the person behind is asleep or lying back I will recline, otherwise I won't.


 
So whoever is sitting at the back of the plane must recline first and then that dictates when everyone else is allowed to relax? 
On shorthaul I agree there is no need to recline. 
On longhaul I would generally wait until food service is finished, lights are dimmed and then, forgive my manners, but if I need sleep then I'm going to do what I can to get it. If someone is rude enough to stick their knees in my back it just reinforces my resolve.


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## shnaek (4 Jun 2008)

Mel said:


> ... if I need sleep then I'm going to do what I can to get it. If someone is rude enough to stick their knees in my back it just reinforces my resolve.


Your resolve to sleep? Kinda hard to sleep though when someone keeps jabbing you in the back with their knees!


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## shnaek (4 Jun 2008)

liaconn said:


> Eh, I said a 'policy' , as in something Aer Lingus should introduce and implement themselves, not 'a European Directive to be transposed into national legislation' so not sure where the sarcasm is coming from.



No sarcasm intended from me anyways. I think you had the right solution, but I think it needs more than a 'policy' myself. Alas you can't depend on good manners. I agree with most of the posters above - recline on long haul, and no recline on short haul.


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## Mel (4 Jun 2008)

shnaek said:


> Your resolve to sleep? Kinda hard to sleep though when someone keeps jabbing you in the back with their knees!


 
You'd be surprised - a couple of G&T's, headphones in, nice blanket or pashmina, cushion in small of back, in front of their knobbly knees,  bob's your uncle. 

Sure it works both ways - on my last flight I was travelling alone and the lady to my left had the same problem even though there was a child of about 6 sitting behind her. She hardly upset the child's legroom! The father had his knees stuck in my back, even though he had an aisle seat therefore some extra leg room. The child kept kicking both seats, despite glares from both of us. I suspect she was encouraged. Plenty of no notice and they soon realised it's harder to keep your knees jammed into the seat than to jsut try to relax!

Editing to add, it doesn't really bother me when someone in front reclines, I'm still a bit baffled by the thread.


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## ClubMan (4 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Yeah - obviously I was talking about autistic people above...





leghorn said:


> I wouldn't classify all austistic people as morons. Strange that you were only referring to them. Why do you think that all autistic people are morons?
> 
> As well as many autistic people, many introverted people would also not want to verbally confront 'seat recliners'. I wouldn't say that all introverted people were morons either.
> 
> In fact, I would suggest that morons only make up quite a small percentage of people unwilling to verbally confront 'seat recliners'.


Er - the emoticon was a clue but since you seem to still be a bit lost try here.


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## ClubMan (4 Jun 2008)

Teabag said:


> Hee Hee. Clubman, do you ever PM yourself telling yourself that you broke 'posting guidelines' ? Can I call people 'morons' now ?


Er - I didn't...


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## Mel (4 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Er - I didn't...


 
Is this saracastic and means that really you did?


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## liaconn (4 Jun 2008)

Mel said:


> it doesn't really bother me when someone in front reclines, I'm still a bit baffled by the thread.


 
You've recounted a couple of episodes you experienced yourself where people were annoyed with you when you reclined, so why are you baffled by the thread?


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## Squire (4 Jun 2008)

Mel said:


> Is this saracastic and means that really you did?


 
Ha, someone give him a shovel.

Back to topic, as a 6'4" frequent short haul flyer, I find the reclining of seats even more offensive than quiet a few of ClubMans posts.

Have a bit of respect for other passengers and have the decency to ask the person behind if they would mind before you recline your seat.


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## Mel (4 Jun 2008)

liaconn said:


> You've recounted a couple of episodes you experienced yourself where people were annoyed with you when you reclined, so why are you baffled by the thread?


 
Fair enough. 
But bottom line for me  - on long haul I need to sleep - I will be ill if I don't, it's related to a medical condition. The flights I described above were 5 and 13 hours respectively, both overnight, and with subsequent connections via LHR of a further 3 to 4 hours. 
If the person behind expects me to sit upright for that long they can think again. I'm sure when they want to sleep they will also recline.


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## truthseeker (4 Jun 2008)

Long haul flights are totally different, bigger aircraft, more realistic space between the rows of seats. i couldnt care less if people in front of me recline on long haul.

on short flights when people recline and you are upright your nose practically touches their seat, not to mention your kneecaps getting a battering if they decide to smash the seat back at full force - its just inconsiderate for people to recline on flights where the space is so limited.


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## Jack The Lad (4 Jun 2008)

truthseeker said:


> Long haul flights are totally different, bigger aircraft, more realistic space between the rows of seats.


 
Not always. A couple of years ago I spent most of a United Airways flight from Heathrow to San Francisco with my knees around my ears (nothing to do with the Kama Sutra!)

Normaly on longer flights, if I feel the need to recline my seat, I'll check to see if the passenger behind me has done the same.


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## so-crates (4 Jun 2008)

Mel said:


> So whoever is sitting at the back of the plane must recline first and then that dictates when everyone else is allowed to relax?
> On shorthaul I agree there is no need to recline.
> On longhaul I would generally wait until food service is finished, lights are dimmed and then, forgive my manners, but if I need sleep then I'm going to do what I can to get it. If someone is rude enough to stick their knees in my back it just reinforces my resolve.


 
 given that those at the back of a plane are generally not in a position to recline their seats they can then impose their discomfort on everyone else 

For long haul flights there is an additional few inches on the minimum seat pitch which makes this less problematic and as they generally dim the lights to allow people to sleep you won't find my knees in your back if you recline. What I am saying is that I always look behind and check first. 

The simple issue is space, there isn't enough of it and only regulatory control is likely to make it ample for most of the population. For reference RyanAir have a seat pitch of 30" and Aer Lingus 32" (I think) but don't forget, that is measured from the back of one seat to the back of the next so the more cushioned a seat is the less of that seat pitch is in front of you.

Just googling and it seems I was slightly astray in my earlier post the 26" refers to the seat depth and equates to a seat pitch of about 28".


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## dodo (4 Jun 2008)

If your seat can recline then surely you have the right to do so simple as that.If they don't want you to relax on your flight then they should remove the reclining facility. By the way I always take my rubbish with me  even though I do like to use the recline feature, I do however take it back up when food is been served.Am I doing something wrong I don't think so.


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## Purple (4 Jun 2008)

dodo said:


> Am I doing something wrong I don't think so.


Yes, your punctuation is deplorable.


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## Mel (4 Jun 2008)

dodo said:


> If your seat can recline then surely you have the right to do so simple as that.If they don't want you to relax on your flight then they should remove the reclining facility. By the way I always take my rubbish with me even though I do like to use the recline feature, I do however take it back up when food is been served.Am I doing something wrong I don't think so.


 
I like your logic; I queue politely to get on board, bring my rubbish or hand to attendant, pack up my tray for the attendant, don't recline until after meals are finished, share the arm rests, try to reserve a seat on longhaul that means I don't have to disturb anyone to get out of my seat, oh and I also try to use the toilets before the "20 minutes to landing" rush... On the grand scale of things I think I'm a reasonably pleasant passenger


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## Squire (5 Jun 2008)

dodo said:


> Am I doing something wrong I don't think so.


 
Just ask the 6Ft guy sitting behind you. You sound like a nice person but it is just simple manners to take other peoples comfort in consideration when you are in such a confined space.

It's like farting in a lift, sure you are allowed to do it but it is just not polite.


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## Teabag (5 Jun 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Er - I didn't...



Er - yes you did...


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## shnaek (5 Jun 2008)

dodo said:


> If your seat can recline then surely you have the right to do so simple as that.If they don't want you to relax on your flight then they should remove the reclining facility. By the way I always take my rubbish with me  even though I do like to use the recline feature, I do however take it back up when food is been served.Am I doing something wrong I don't think so.



And if someone books an airline seat they have the right not to have their knees shoved in their face. Sure, there's no law against reclining. And if it comes down to rights then we have lots of them, but we have a responsibility to be courteous also. The only solution is the one Ryanair implement on new planes- no reclining facility on seats on short haul flights - unless of course they increase the distance between seats so everyone can enjoy their rights without infringing on others! Imagine all the people, living life in peace...


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## liaconn (5 Jun 2008)

dodo said:


> If your seat can recline then surely you have the right to do so simple as that.If they don't want you to relax on your flight then they should remove the reclining facility. By the way I always take my rubbish with me even though I do like to use the recline feature, I do however take it back up when food is been served.Am I doing something wrong I don't think so.


 
The point is, when you recline you're taking away space from the passenger behind you. Therefore, while you're relaxing they're being squashed. I just don't think this is fair unless you're on a long haul flight (where there's more space available) or are feeling ill and need to lie back.


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## Mel (5 Jun 2008)

If you base your decision on whether to recline or not on the person _behind_ you, why not just do the same if the person _in front_ reclines? Follow their lead and recline also? Everyone happy.


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## BOXtheFOX (5 Jun 2008)

I think it is more comfortable to sit in a chair that doesn't recline.....


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## shnaek (5 Jun 2008)

Mel said:


> If you base your decision on whether to recline or not on the person _behind_ you, why not just do the same if the person _in front_ reclines? Follow their lead and recline also? Everyone happy.



Except the person at the back of the plane!


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## gearoidmm (11 Jun 2008)

So, there's a tall person behind me so I can't recline and there's a fat person next to me and I have to respect their inability to stay out of my space... bugger that, on a long-haul flight I'll recline.  It's uncomfortable enough without having to sit bolt upright for 6 hours.  The seats are designed like that for a reason.  Oh, and any one who sticks their knees in my back will find me adjusting my seat back repeatedly until they cop on.  You're not breaking any rules and the seats are designed to go back/  I don't see what the problem is.


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## orka (11 Jun 2008)

gearoidmm said:


> there's a fat person next to me and I have to respect their inability to stay out of my space...


Why do you have to respect their inability to stay out of your space?? If they can't fit in a single seat they should buy two - or a business class seat.  My sister-in-law was next to a woman she described as a '350-pound gorilla' (sis-in-law is american) on a long-haul flight - the flight was totally full so there was nowhere else to move to - the woman was so large that the armrests could not be lowered while she was sitting down so the airhostesses lifted the armrest between SIL and woman so that woman could spill into half SIL's seat!!  Luckily SIL in thin.  Totally unacceptable in my view.


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## truthseeker (11 Jun 2008)

orka said:


> Why do you have to respect their inability to stay out of your space?? If they can't fit in a single seat they should buy two - or a business class seat. My sister-in-law was next to a woman she described as a '350-pound gorilla' (sis-in-law is american) on a long-haul flight - the flight was totally full so there was nowhere else to move to - the woman was so large that the armrests could not be lowered while she was sitting down so the airhostesses lifted the armrest between SIL and woman so that woman could spill into half SIL's seat!! Luckily SIL in thin. Totally unacceptable in my view.


 
Well I would be more inclined to be annoyed at the airline for selling a woman that size a one seat ticket if she couldnt fit into one seat. That should have been picked up at check in.


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## Squire (12 Jun 2008)

gearoidmm said:


> The seats are designed like that for a reason.


 
On short haul flights, the seats are pushed tighter together to accomadate more passengers and thus bring the unit cost of the seat down. Even though the seat will still have the facility to recline, quiet often it is impossible to do so without causing pain or discomfort to the person behind. In this situation, most people with decent manners would not recline their seats. You will always have the odd inconsiderate passenger who is only concerned with their own comfort and thus we have threads like this in letting off steam. QED.

Long haul flights are a different matter as has been stated previously in this thread.


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