# Historical figures we should know about but don't



## Purple (1 Dec 2020)

I was talking to a friend from Cork at the weekend (I know, a friend from Cork!) and he'd never heard of Perkin Warbeck.
I was surprised because he is always going on about Cork being the Rebel County but had no idea what the name was given to it by King Henry VII of England after Cork's support of Perkin Warbeck in his failed attempt at a rebellion against Henry. link.
That got me thinking; are there any other such historical figures we should all know about?

One that I'm a fan of is Lady Ishbel Aberdeen , who did so much to help poor people, and particularly poor women, in Dublin and around Ireland t the turn of the last century but has been written out of our history because she was a "Brit".


----------



## odyssey06 (1 Dec 2020)

I've heard of Perkin Warbeck but where is this 'Cork' of which you speak?


So they should be waving the White Rose of York and not the stars and bars of the Confederate states of America at GAA matches then?


----------



## PMU (1 Dec 2020)

Purple said:


> That got me thinking; are there any other such historical figures we should all know about?"


Definitely Lambert Simnel who was crowned King Of England in Dublin in 1487.


----------



## Purple (2 Dec 2020)

PMU said:


> Definitely Lambert Simnel who was crowned King Of England in Dublin in 1487.


He was from Yorkshire though the coronation in Christchurch does give him an irish link.


----------



## joe sod (2 Dec 2020)

Domhnal Ua Buachalla    the last viceroy of Ireland, probably not historical in his own right but the last link to British crown in Ireland. Just interesting in that there are still viceroys in Australia ,New Zealand and Canada. He ended his term in 1936 when Ireland became a republic but if he had of still been in office in 1940 Ireland would have been in the second world war and he would have been a very significant and divisive figure


----------



## odyssey06 (2 Dec 2020)

Frederick III, son of Kaiser Wilhelm I and father of Kaiser Wilhelm II, he only reigned as German Emperor for less than a year in 1888 before dying at 56 from cancer.
He was married to a daughter of Queen Victoria, and had hoped to influence Germany towards a more liberal and less military focus.

I only became aware of him though an episode of a 1970s BBC drama-documentary series The Fall of Eagles, about the monarchies in the run up to WW1. Top series with an array of acting talent.

Frederick III, German Emperor - Wikipedia


----------



## mathepac (2 Dec 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> I've heard of Perkin Warbeck but where is this 'Cork' of which you speak?


Aha, take me to your Leeder.


----------



## Leper (3 Dec 2020)

I've thought at length of this post and must commend the originator [and I don't give him (OK! I should have said Purple) too many compliments] for originating  the subject. I wish to nominate the Mormon Elders from Utah USA who lived here during the 1970's seeking conversions by physically canvassing in two's every house in Ireland. Remember the 70's was prior to Fr Ted (circa 1992) when Ireland suddenly woke up and learned it could challenge anything that was said from the Sunday Pulpit. 

These Elders were well groomed, wore suits with shirt and tie, immaculate hirsuit appendage, name tags and were the most presentable looking people to call to your door. Doors were slammed in their faces, they suffered untold abuse and many a door failed to open to them. They had endurance the envy of any insurance salesman and they each had to live here for two years.

I wish to nominate all of them as unsung heroes in Ireland. They'll never receive the gratitude or notoriety they deserve.


----------



## odyssey06 (3 Dec 2020)

That story about the Mormons makes me think of Zoroaster \ Zarathustra.
An ancient Iranian prophet.
While his philosophy doesn't have many direct adherents today, it had huge influence on the development of other religions and Greek thought.

_The idea of a single god was not the only essentially Zoroastrian tenet to find its way into other major faiths, most notably the ‘big three’: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The concepts of Heaven and Hell, Judgment Day and the final revelation of the world, and angels and demons all originated in the teachings of Zarathustra, as well as the later canon of Zoroastrian literature they inspired. _









						The obscure religion that shaped the West
					

It has influenced Star Wars and Game of Thrones – and characters as diverse as Voltaire, Nietzsche and Freddie Mercury have cited it as an inspiration. So what is Zoroastrianism?




					www.bbc.com


----------



## Purple (3 Dec 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> That story about the Mormons makes me think of Zoroaster \ Zarathustra.
> An ancient Iranian prophet.
> While his philosophy doesn't have many direct adherents today, it had huge influence on the development of other religions and Greek thought.
> 
> ...


And the religion was moderate and dominated Central Asia when that region was the centre of the world and that moderation allowed science, mathematics, culture and medicine to flourish. Most of the classical Greek influence on Islamic philosophy comes that region when it was largely Zoroastrianism as the Arabs invaded and conquered the region and its vast cities and there was a kind of reverse cultural takeover of Arab Islam.  

Muḥammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī was from the region but spent his adult life in Baghdad. You mightn't know his name but you'll know two things that are named after him; algorithm and algebra which he introduced from India (the real birthplace of Mathematics, despite what the Greeks say) and developed.


----------



## odyssey06 (3 Dec 2020)

A while back I read a book called The 100 by Michael Hart about the most influential people in history.

I'll mention a couple of names which may not be that well known here.

The name of William Thomas Green Morton may not ring a bell in the minds of most readers. He was, however, a far more influential person than many more famous men, for Morton was the man principally responsible for the introduction of the use of anesthesia in surgery.
Gregory Pincus was the American biologist who played the principal role in the development of the oral contraceptive pill. Although he was never particularly well known, he had far more actual influence on the world than many people who are world-famous.
Prior to Ts'ai Lun, there was no convenient writing material available in China... He is traditionally regarded as the inventor of paper and the modern papermaking process, as he originated paper in its modern form. 
The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History - Wikipedia


----------



## mathepac (3 Dec 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> That story about the Mormons makes me think of Zoroaster \ Zarathustra.
> An ancient Iranian prophet.


Just to be accurate, ancient Persian, an astonishing race who left nothing that came into contact with them unaltered.

They invaded and ruled Northern India (roughly that area now known as Afghanistan) and left the seeds of at least two major Indian languages Gujarati and Devanagari I think.

The were never invaded or conquered by Arabs but were invaded by Muslims and as a consequence, Persians caused one of the great rifts in the Islamic faith, Shia vs.  Sunni. The ancient Persians also adapted Arab script, adding characters and handing it back to users, once again altered but richer.

The 1001 Arabian nights, Aladdin, lamps, flying carpets and so on have nothing to do with Arabs or Arabia, they are all Persian in origin, the work of an ancient Persian writer. Their native language, Farsi, has enriched English, as well as other languages, giving us words like divan, pyjama, paradise to name three. Pashtuns, roughly 40% of the population of modern Afghanistan, are direct descendants of the ancient Persians who conquered that part of the world. Their native language Pashto is a dialect / descendant of of Farsi.

I think Cyrus the Great, Darius, Xerxes and the others should be remembered and revered, apart from other achievements, in helping to establish and spread a culture that created and spread the first monotheistic religion, the first postal system and the roadways to support it, the world's first teaching hospital and an inherent cultural value of knowing and telling the truth.

[EDIT]I forgot to mention the Romans. They had at least three attempts at conquering the ancient Persians and all failed. Guess what they learned from the Persians? The importance of roads, a lesson they never forgot.


----------



## Purple (4 Dec 2020)

odyssey06 said:


> Prior to Ts'ai Lun, there was no convenient writing material available in China... He is traditionally regarded as the inventor of paper and the modern papermaking process, as he originated paper in its modern form.


Though it was the Central Asians, specifically the people of Samarkand  (present day Uzbekistan) who added cotton fibres to the brittle Chinese paper. It was that paper, and not Chinese paper, which was used in Europe for nearly a thousand years. Just about all of the silk in Europe can from the same region; for most purposes the Silk Road stopped well short of China.


----------



## Yorky (22 Dec 2020)

James Cecil Parke - all-round sportsman, olympian, chess player and solicitor from Clones, County Monaghan.

There's not one facility or place named after Mr Parke, not even a state of the art sports facility which opened in Clones in recent years with EU and cross border peace funding.






						James Cecil Parke - Monaghan County Museum
					

1881 – 1947 “One of the greatest sportsmen that County Monaghan or indeed Ireland has ever produced” James Cecil Parke was born at Clonboy, Clones, County Monaghan in pre-independence Ireland.…



					monaghan.ie
				












						Is James Cecil Parke Ireland’s greatest ever sportsman?
					

A career interrupted by World War One saw him captain Ireland and win at Wimbledon




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## Purple (4 Jan 2021)

Yorky said:


> James Cecil Parke - all-round sportsman, olympian, chess player and solicitor from Clones, County Monaghan.
> 
> There's not one facility or place named after Mr Parke, not even a state of the art sports facility which opened in Clones in recent years with EU and cross border peace funding.
> 
> ...


Then there's Mabel Cahill who won the US Tennis Open singe twice, the doubles twice and the mixed doubles once.
She is Ireland's greatest ever tennis player. More on her here.


----------



## Purple (4 Jan 2021)

Then there's Thomas Midgley Jr., the man who probably did more to damage the environment than anyone else who ever lived. He put Lead in Petrol and CFC's in Fridges.


----------



## Deiseblue (4 Jan 2021)

Vere St. Leger  Goold of the Waterford St. Leger Goold’s - beaten Wimbledon singles finalist 1879.
Rather sadly blotted his copybook in later life when murdering a Danish heiress in Monaco before being caught in Marseilles with the dismembered body in his trunk .
Banished to Devil’s island for life where the opportunities to play tennis were somewhat limited.


----------



## The_Banker (4 Jan 2021)

joe Domhnal Ua Buachalla said:


> Domhnal Ua Buachalla    the last viceroy of Ireland, probably not historical in his own right but the last link to British crown in Ireland. Just interesting in that there are still viceroys in Australia ,New Zealand and Canada. He ended his term in 1936 when Ireland became a republic but if he had of still been in office in 1940 Ireland would have been in the second world war and he would have been a very significant and divisive figure



Didn’t Ireland become a republic in 1948 (act passed in 1948, becoming law at Easter 1949)?

The present Irish constitution was passed by referendum in 36 becoming law in 1937. The countries name changed from The Irish Free State to Eire. While we got a President (Douglas Hyde) and were probably a republic in everything but name, Dev didn’t want to fully declare a republic as he felt the U.K. would come out and copper fasten the position of Northern Ireland within the U.K.
Which they did after Costello declared a republic in 48.

In fact Domhnal Ua Buachalla was the Governor General and not the Viceroy.
He was a republican and an ally of Dev and he got the gig after Dev continued to insult and embarrass (diplomatically) the previous incumbent
so that Dev was able give the job to Domhnal Ua Buachalla who under Dev’s instruction never fulfilled the duties of the office, reducing it to an insignificance.

(special thanks to my history teacher John Brosnan in the 1980s at Scoil Stiofain Naofa).


----------



## Purple (5 Jan 2021)

The_Banker said:


> The countries name changed from The Irish Free State to Eire.


Great post but the name of the country is Éire or, in the English language, Ireland. It should never be called Éire when speaking in English. The Brit's and the Nordies call it Eire because they are unwilling to allow us the name Ireland but that's the name of this country. The Republic of Ireland is the name of a football team.


----------



## mathepac (5 Jan 2021)

Purple said:


> The Republic of Ireland is the name of a football team.


Or it was pre-Delaney and €76m worth of debt. Tayto United in future maybe or The Teneo Titans.


----------



## Peanuts20 (8 Jan 2021)

For the week that is in it, James Hoban, Kilkenny man (from Callan) who designed the White House and was the supervising architect on the building of the Capital building in DC. 

Chaim Herzog, from Portobello in Dublin who became President of Israel. His father spoke fluent Irish and was known as the "Sinn Fein Rabbi"

and lastly, Margaret Eager from Limerick, governess to the children of Tsar Nicholas the second who were all executed by the Communists (she was back in Ireland at that stage)


----------



## Purple (8 Jan 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> For the week that is in it, James Hoban, Kilkenny man (from Callan) who designed the White House and was the supervising architect on the building of the Capital building in DC.
> 
> Chaim Herzog, from Portobello in Dublin who became President of Israel. His father spoke fluent Irish and was known as the "Sinn Fein Rabbi"
> 
> and lastly, Margaret Eager from Limerick, governess to the children of Tsar Nicholas the second who were all executed by the Communists (she was back in Ireland at that stage)


Excellent Peanuts. I hadn't heard of Margaret Eager.


----------



## Baby boomer (20 Jan 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> For the week that is in it, James Hoban, Kilkenny man (from Callan) who designed the White House and was the supervising architect on the building of the Capital building in DC.



And for a nice bit of symmetry on the day that's in it, I nominate Robert Ross.  Major-General in the British Army in the 1812 war against the United States, native of Rostrevor, County Down, he was the second last man to lead an invasion of Capitol Hill in Washington.  Ross commanded the forces that captured Washington DC, and burned both the White House and the Capitol Building.  

Later in the same war, he kept Francis Scott Key as an overnight hostage/prisoner/guest on board HMS Tonnant during the bombardment of Fort McHenry by the crown forces.  "By the dawn's early light," Key saw the stars and stripes still flying over the fort, put pen to paper and, well, the rest is history.

Quite a serendipitous turn of events.  In a further twist, Ross is commemorated with a portrait in the Capitol Rotunda.  I'm sure few, if any, of the insurgents would have recognized him or known that the man looking down on them made a rather better fist of attacking the place than they did and also played a Key (see what I did there) part in giving them their national anthem.


----------



## Cricketer (20 Jan 2021)

Wasn't there a Roy Keane from Cork? Started a war or some such.


----------



## odyssey06 (20 Jan 2021)

Baby boomer said:


> And for a nice bit of symmetry on the day that's in it, I nominate Robert Ross.  Major-General in the British Army in the 1812 war against the United States, native of Rostrevor, County Down, he was the second last man to lead an invasion of Capitol Hill in Washington.  Ross commanded the forces that captured Washington DC, and burned both the White House and the Capitol Building.
> Later in the same war, he kept Francis Scott Key as an overnight hostage/prisoner/guest on board HMS Tonnant during the bombardment of Fort McHenry by the crown forces.  "By the dawn's early light," Key saw the stars and stripes still flying over the fort, put pen to paper and, well, the rest is history.
> Quite a serendipitous turn of events.  In a further twist, Ross is commemorated with a portrait in the Capitol Rotunda.  I'm sure few, if any, of the insurgents would have recognized him or known that the man looking down on them made a rather better fist of attacking the place than they did and also played a Key (see what I did there) part in giving them their national anthem.



I'd never heard of him but was passing through Rostrevor last summer and there's a fine obelisk dedicated to the General.
The plaque made for fascinating reading... and the view from the look out point out towards Carlingford Lough is beautiful.


----------



## Baby boomer (20 Jan 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> I'd never heard of him but was passing through Rostrevor last summer and there's a fine obelisk dedicated to the General.
> The plaque made for fascinating reading... and the view from the look out point out towards Carlingford Lough is beautiful.


Yes, gorgeous views alright.  According to this website Ross had planned to build his retirement home on that spot.  http://themanwhocapturedwashington.com/ross-monuments/


----------



## odyssey06 (19 Jun 2021)

A 98-year-old woman living in Co Mayo, has been given a special US House of Representatives honour in Belmullet this evening, for the role she played in changing the course of world history with her weather reports. *Maureen Sweeney*, who is originally from Co Kerry, forecast an impending storm from Blacksod station in 1944 which changed the timing of the D-Day landings and ultimately secured victory for the Allies.









						Mayo's D-Day heroine receives special US honour
					

A 98-year-old woman living in Co Mayo, has been given a special US House of Representatives honour in Belmullet this evening, for the role she played in changing the course of world history with her weather reports.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## WolfeTone (19 Jun 2021)

odyssey06 said:


> 98-year-old woman living in Co Mayo



Biden certainly takes his Irish roots seriously.


----------



## odyssey06 (9 Jul 2021)

Brigadier General James Wolfe Ripley - the Union Army’s chief of the Ordnance Bureau in the American Civil War.

_"It was largely due to his efforts that the over 2 million Union soldiers who served during the war were consistently well armed with standard muzzle-loading rifle-muskets and supplied with plenty of ammunition. Yet Ripley’s failure to ride the wave of new technology meant that the war dragged on longer than it should have, thereby producing a higher cost in lives."_

This is one story about him:
_President Lincoln had to go to Ripley’s office and give his ordnance chief direct orders to buy the new weapons. Although Ripley grudgingly complied, he then did his best to sabotage the purchase contracts by inserting an egregious “fine print” clause that would cancel any order that was even one day late in delivery.This proved to be especially effective obstructionism considering the inevitable delays the new companies experienced as they wrestled with unfamiliar technologies. Ripley’s correspondence reveals his continual effort to cancel all orders for repeating weapons by unfairly exaggerating a few delivery failures or development problems. Yet field commanders were so desperate for the new rapid-fire weapons that some of them armed their units with repeaters personally purchased by their troops or officers. _





__





						Civil War Firepower Denied!
					

The Union Army’s chief of ordnance sabotaged the introduction of repeating weapons. The Civil War has been called the first “modern war” and is credited




					www.historynet.com


----------



## mathepac (12 Jul 2021)

Was he the originator of "Believe it, or not!"


----------



## odyssey06 (12 Jul 2021)

mathepac said:


> Was he the originator of "Believe it, or not!"


Believe it or not...

Turns out to be a not 









						Robert Ripley - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------

