# Forged Irish Passports (Again)



## DublinTexas (29 Jun 2010)

So citizen wishing to get a passport can’t get a passport because of strikes, work to rule or broken machines which were introduced to make the passports me secure.

Now the 2nd time in a couple of month another allegation of forged Irish passports comes to light. First the allegation that the "Institute for Intelligence and Special Operations" used them when they terminated a wanted criminal/terrorist in Dubai, now the Russian KGB sorry FSB is alleged to have used them for their spies in the USA.

When will our Mister of Foreign affairs get his department under control and get things sorted?


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## micmclo (29 Jun 2010)

Have you a link to this story?


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## Towger (29 Jun 2010)

It's on RTE's site: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0629/spy.html

His 'real' name Richard Murphy sounds more Irish than Eunan Gerard Doherty


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## Shawady (29 Jun 2010)

And Irish Times
[broken link removed]


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## Sunny (29 Jun 2010)

Not sure why you are looking to blame the Department of Foreign Affairs though. Am sure we are no the only Country that has forged passports hanging around.


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## Towger (29 Jun 2010)

No need to forge them when passing a few bob a politician would get you a real one.


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## Moral Ethos (29 Jun 2010)

How do we know this particular passport is not the real deal?


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## Sunny (29 Jun 2010)

Moral Ethos said:


> How do we know this particular passport is not the real deal?


 
Because they said it was fake?


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## DublinTexas (29 Jun 2010)

Sunny said:


> Not sure why you are looking to blame the Department of Foreign Affairs though. Am sure we are no the only Country that has forged passports hanging around.


Because they are responsible for the mess!

What do we care that other countries have fake passports out there, we should start changing our passport system from verification over to electronic passports (including pictures/fingerprints) which are way harder to forge and also give greater security. Not to mention that soon if you pass does not have fingerprint you can’t go to the US without Visa.




Towger said:


> No need to forge them when passing a few bob a politician would get you a real one.


So True.


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## Sunny (29 Jun 2010)

Sorry, I still don't get how some Russian spies decide to use a fake Irish passport and it is the department of foreign affairs fault. It like saying that the central bank is to blame for people trying to use fake money.


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## haminka1 (29 Jun 2010)

looks like all you have to do is to be pals with comrade medvedev and you get an irish passport pronto  for the rest there's queues


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## ajapale (29 Jun 2010)

The FBI were Looking For Murphy The Spy.


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## DublinTexas (29 Jun 2010)

Sunny said:


> Sorry, I still don't get how some Russian spies decide to use a fake Irish passport and it is the department of foreign affairs fault. It like saying that the central bank is to blame for people trying to use fake money.


 
Well if the Central Bank would give out money notes that are easy to forge I most certainly would blame them if I get one of those.

The fault of the Department is that the passports still have not the same security standard as other countries and the system we use to give out passports is very easy to manipulate as the recent example of Dubai has shown.

But I guess one fake passport more or less does not worry anybody.


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## Latrade (30 Jun 2010)

Expel the Russian Ambassador. Surely the precedent has been set?


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## Towger (30 Jun 2010)

Latrade said:


> Expel the Russian Ambassador. Surely the precedent has been set?


 
Not again... We already got rid of one on the QT a few years back, as he had too many accidents while driving his car drunk.


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## Sunny (30 Jun 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> Well if the Central Bank would give out money notes that are easy to forge I most certainly would blame them if I get one of those.
> 
> The fault of the Department is that the passports still have not the same security standard as other countries and the system we use to give out passports is very easy to manipulate as the recent example of Dubai has shown.
> 
> But I guess one fake passport more or less does not worry anybody.


 
Of course it is a problem and the Irish Government should take the same steps as they did with Israel by expelling a Russian diplomat/spy. I just don't get why you are blaming the Department of Foreign Affairs. It's taking civil service bashing too far. From what I gather the passport involved is pre 2005. The passports currently issued by the Department are the same standard and contain the same security features as the US or other European passports. 

Every passport or document can be faked to some extent.

To be honest, the whole thing sounds like a bad spy novel. They were hardly handing over State secrets considering the FBI let them loose for years.


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## DublinTexas (30 Jun 2010)

Sunny said:


> Of course it is a problem and the Irish Government should take the same steps as they did with Israel by expelling a Russian diplomat/spy. I just don't get why you are blaming the Department of Foreign Affairs. It's taking civil service bashing too far. From what I gather the passport involved is pre 2005. The passports currently issued by the Department are the same standard and contain the same security features as the US or other European passports.
> 
> Every passport or document can be faked to some extent.
> 
> To be honest, the whole thing sounds like a bad spy novel. They were hardly handing over State secrets considering the FBI let them loose for years.


 
Irish passports by the way don’t have the latest security standards like some of other EU countries.

Irish passports only have a chip that has the picture not finger prints , Irish passport while printed on a plastic card don’t have the special coating like other countries passports, Irish passports can be applied via mail with minimal documents while other countries require in person applications with strict controls.

This has nothing to do with civil servant bashing. 

So let’s say a large software company called M is producing a digital certificate that you use as your online passport and it is not using the latest technology and gets compromised, you would not go so far as to complain about company M?

There is no difference, the minister must take responsibility for the problems in his department (where fake passports are just another symptom) , just like the responsible manager in M would have to take the responsibility.


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## Towger (30 Jun 2010)

Just like the responsible managers in D are taking the responsibility for millions of PCs produced with faulty capacitors?


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## Latrade (30 Jun 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> There is no difference, the minister must take responsibility for the problems in his department (where fake passports are just another symptom) , just like the responsible manager in M would have to take the responsibility.


 
Before we call for a general election, there does need to be some context. First, an Irish passport was among numerous other passports, it appears that even countries with the latest technology are still vulnerable to fakes.

It was a fake passport, we've no idea how good it was or whether it was ever used. It seems that exactly like those good spy thrillers, these guys had a box each with numerous identities in them. Was the passport ever used for travel? Was it used to get into the country? Hardly considering they were still using Russian identities, had mortgages in Russian names, etc. 

Passports last for 10 years, the latest "secure" passports have only been around in any state for a couple of years. In theory this passport could have been ifaked in 2000 and still be "valid". So could a US passport and any other EU passport, you can't compare the faking of a passport now to one made perhaps 10 years ago.

And as Sunny says, it is still possible to make a fake of even the most current secure passports. Yes I'd say more could be done with Irish Passports, but I don't think one passport among many other fake passports is such an issue that we need to be knocking on the minister's door just yet.


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## Sunny (30 Jun 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> Irish passports by the way don’t have the latest security standards like some of other EU countries.
> 
> Irish passports only have a chip that has the picture not finger prints , Irish passport while printed on a plastic card don’t have the special coating like other countries passports, Irish passports can be applied via mail with minimal documents while other countries require in person applications with strict controls.


 
The use of fingerprint data in passports in European Countries has only come in around 2009 . The new Irish passports since 2006 are biometric passports and carry the same technology as any other Countries. Irish passports are capable of holding fingerprint data. 

How do the Irish only require minimal documentation compared to other Countries? I can only speak for the UK where I could get my friend to countersign my application instead of having to present myself at a Police Station and I could apply on-line.


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## csirl (30 Jun 2010)

Fake passport can mean any of the following:

1. Fake passport booklet i.e. forger prints/binds a replica of an Irish passport.

2. Real passport obtained using fake details i.e. the passport is a genuine one issued by D/Foreign Affairs, however, it was obtained using fraudulent application details.

3. Real passport booklet, fake details i.e. someone obtained genuine blank passport booklets (robbery or bribery) and added the personal details themselves. 

While all of the above are big concerns, if it is 2 or 3, then it is a very very serious issue and heads need to role.

In my opinion, Irish passports are too easy to obtain. There is no real verification of details. The principal documents used to obtain one are birth certificates. You cannot identify someone using a birth certificate and all birth certs are openly available for purchase by any member of the public.


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## Towger (30 Jun 2010)

csirl said:


> 3. Real passport booklet, fake details i.e. someone obtained genuine blank passport booklets (robbery or bribery) and added the personal details themselves.


 
Or they just buy the same printers and role their own...


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## sunrock (30 Jun 2010)

Stolen or sold passports can be used to give new identities . Passports can have the details changed.Criminals will always find ways to do this even though it is more difficult now.
It is or at least was too easy for people of differing nationalities to get irish passports. It never ceased to amaze me how many travellers with very little links to Ireland have irish passports.


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## D8Lady (30 Jun 2010)

DublinTexas said:


> Irish passports by the way don’t have the latest security standards like some of other EU countries.
> 
> Irish passports only have a chip that has the picture not finger prints , Irish passport while printed on a plastic card don’t have the special coating like other countries passports, Irish passports can be applied via mail with minimal documents while other countries require in person applications with strict controls.



I disagree. I got a passport recently. In order to get a photo signed the Gardai at a station near where I work sent me to my local Garda station. And there they thouroughly checked out my name address etc. 

There are all sorts of security features built into the coating (ok, saddo here held it up to the light & got a magnifying glass at it!). The older type passport was a doddle to fake in comparison to the new type.


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## csirl (1 Jul 2010)

> I disagree. I got a passport recently. In order to get a photo signed the Gardai at a station near where I work sent me to my local Garda station. And there they thouroughly checked out my name address etc.


 
But, the reality is that the Gardai have no way of verifying your identity. An identity thief could present with someone elses genuine details (name/address/birth cert) and his/her own photo. In urban areas, the Gardai in the local station do not personally know the vast majority of local people - they just sign the photos and record the fact that they have done so. The whole system is based on the old fashion rural notion that the local Garda knows everyone in the village. Not good enough in modern times.


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## Moral Ethos (1 Jul 2010)

Agreed.

If I walked into my local station I can guarantee you that no one on duty would know me from Adam.


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## Purple (9 Jul 2010)

Where are all the protesters? I haven't heard about any of them shouting outside the Russian embassy about their spies using Irish passports in America.


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## DB74 (9 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> Where are all the protesters? I haven't heard about any of them shouting outside the Russian embassy about their spies using Irish passports in America.


 
AFAIK, the fake Irish passports used by Russians weren't used to facilitate an assassination.

Not that that's an excuse for forging a passport but the distinction should be made I think.


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## Purple (9 Jul 2010)

DB74 said:


> AFAIK, the fake Irish passports used by Russians weren't used to facilitate an assassination.
> 
> Not that that's an excuse for forging a passport but the distinction should be made I think.



OK, so it's ok for a police state to forge passports in order to spy on a friendly democracy but it's not OK for a friendly democracy to forge Irish passports in order to kill a terrorist. 
It that why there’s no protests or is it because of the anti-Israeli feelings of the protestors?


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## Latrade (9 Jul 2010)

DB74 said:


> AFAIK, the fake Irish passports used by Russians weren't used to facilitate an assassination.
> 
> Not that that's an excuse for forging a passport but the distinction should be made I think.


 
I think ultimately that's the point, but I would suspect if if did involve Israeli spying rather than assassination, we'd still see an outcry. That might just be paranoia.

Mind from my own shallow view, my lack of vexation in the Russian case is simple. Compare a Russian suspect to an . I rest my case.


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## Sunny (9 Jul 2010)

Purple is right but I always think the idiots who protest outside embassies haven't got a clue what they are protesting against. It's reminds me of the time I was in Sydney during an anti-globalisation march. I worked in a bank and was locked inside while people were smashing up local businesses etc. After they vented for awhile, we saw a few of them withdraw money from an ATM and head over to McDonalds for a bite to eat. I don't think they saw the irony.

As an aside, I can't believe the US and Russia are exchanging spies in Vienna. Sounds like a really bad movie!


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## DB74 (9 Jul 2010)

Purple said:


> OK, so it's ok for a police state to forge passports in order to spy on a friendly democracy but it's not OK for a friendly democracy to forge Irish passports in order to kill a terrorist.
> It that why there’s no protests or is it because of the anti-Israeli feelings of the protestors?


 
I never said it was OK for anybody to forge anybody's passport.

Maybe the protests in Ireland were because the forged passports were used to kill somebody.


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## Mpsox (9 Jul 2010)

D8Lady said:


> I disagree. I got a passport recently. In order to get a photo signed the Gardai at a station near where I work sent me to my local Garda station. And there they thouroughly checked out my name address etc.


 
I lost my passport on a business trip to the UK recently (thank you City jet for letting me on with my driving licence). I reported it at my local Garda station next day and got the form for the new one signed there as well. For the form, I had a photocopy of my passport but other then that, the Guard didn't ask for anything else. He recorded my missing passport in a battered book and filed it away again. I presume that it was input into something more high tech afterwards, curious if anyone knows what happens after it's reported at the station?


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## Moral Ethos (9 Jul 2010)

Nothing normally.

It is only when a new passport is applied for does the passport office become aware of the loss.


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## censuspro (13 Jul 2010)

Interesting how all those who were calling for the expulsion of Israeli ambassador and cutting diplomatic ties with Israel over the forged Irish passports are not calling for expulsion of the Russian ambassador and cutting diplomatic ties with Russia.


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## Purple (13 Jul 2010)

censuspro said:


> Interesting how all those who were calling for the expulsion of Israeli ambassador and cutting diplomatic ties with Israel over the forged Irish passports are not calling for expulsion of the Russian ambassador and cutting diplomatic ties with Russia.



That's because they are morons.


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