# HEO vs AO in Civil Service



## Rovers1901 (2 Jan 2008)

While I know it's hard to say as Departments differ from each other, would anyone be able to point out the advantages/disadvantages/differences of these grades over each other?

I am currently in a position where I have the option of taking either. The HEO would be in my current Dept (probably in my current section) and the AO would involve a move to a different Dept (which I have no problem with). We don't have any AO's so I have no real idea what the difference or perceived difference between the two is.

In terms of further career development in the broader civil service which grade would be said to be more advantageous to take, in people's opinions/experiences?


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## Green (2 Jan 2008)

IMHO it boils down to the type of work you will be doing not to the grade which will define the type of experience you will get. Also, relevant is the question of where you want to go in your career, and what type of work are you currently doing. What Department are you currently in?


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## Rovers1901 (2 Jan 2008)

I'd like to get involved in more policy orientated areas which wouldn't be applicable in my current position or indeed in the HEO role within my own section which would be a fairly specialist sort of role with a very defined function. So I'm more than likely going to take the AO. Was just wondering what the differences between the two are perceived to be as we don't have AO's in our Dept so I've nothing to compare the two to.


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## dereko1969 (2 Jan 2008)

well the AO would be more policy driven though it does depend which department and which section you end up in and even who your boss is. i found that depending on the department AOs would generally do a lot better in inter-departmental competitions than in internal competitions for promotion thereafter. i think there was an ageist/lack of experience bias with the internal competitions that wasn't evident in the external ones. this was due to AOs being generally younger than HEOs. 
increments for AOs are double that of HEOs and you would usually expect to be promoted quicker than a HEO in general. 
if i were you i'd try to avoid Finance/Revenue if you can help it. Finance have too many AOs and you could get poxy work, Revenue generally don't know what to do with AOs. Taoiseach's would be your best bet if you can swing it.


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## Staples (3 Jan 2008)

Rovers1901 said:


> I'd like to get involved in more policy orientated areas which wouldn't be applicable in my current position or indeed in the HEO role within my own section which would be a fairly specialist sort of role with a very defined function. So I'm more than likely going to take the AO. Was just wondering what the differences between the two are perceived to be as we don't have AO's in our Dept so I've nothing to compare the two to.


 
AOs enter the CS at a reasonably advanced level and with third level qualifications already in their pocket.  The perception, therfore, is that they are competent professionals who are likely to go far.  HEO jobs, on the other hand, are often occupied by people who have worked their way through the junior grades and the perception is often that they owe their position to loyalty and perseverance.  For many (but not all) this represents the pinnacle of their career rather than a platform for further advancement.  The jobs into which HEOs and AOs are placed generally reflect this.  HEOs may often be supervisors of large teams of staff and would generally command some respect among those in more junior grades.  

AOs, on the other hand, are generally placed in more policy oriented  positions and are not generally required to perform the team supervisor/manager role that would be required of a HEO.  In one sense, they're at the bottom of the senior managment pecking order and may often be treated as such by their more senior colleagues.  Depending on where you are, you may find that you have to "serve your time" before being moving to more senior positions.  

I would agree with the earlier post about mainstrem departments not knowing what to do with AOs in particular to the extent that they assign them to regular HEO work. This might be reasonably rewarding if the job to which you are assigned meets but your ambitions.  It may be difficult to establish this in advance, however.


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## xeresod (4 Jan 2008)

There's a big difference at the bottom of the payscales, HEO starts at €46,464 and AO at €33,439 and it takes several years to catch up (full payscales [broken link removed]), so you should look at what your circumstances are along with the type of work and your future ambitions.

The level of income has been been the deciding factor for a lot of staff in my current and previous departments both when making the decision of which to apply for and which to take when they had a choice.


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## Rovers1901 (4 Jan 2008)

Thanks for the replies. The salary difference between the two is something I was aware of but i wouldn't be starting at the bottom of the AO scale anyway, so while there would still be a difference it wouldn't be as great as 33k vs 47k


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## spinmaster (4 Jan 2008)

Also bear in mind AOs start off with less holidays than HEOs (23 versus 27 I think).  Furthermore AOs are expected to do a "year out" in another Department, generally Finance or Taoiseachs.


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## collieb (4 Jan 2008)

I think there ar advantages and disadvantages to both. As pointed out above, the AO grade is policy orientated but would generally get little experience in managerial roles, and this is often reflected in competitions - HEOs oftend do better in internal competitions in 'line' depts, while Aos often do better in inter-departmental comps. 

A lot will depend on the type of work you want to to do and where you want to go in the future. In general I would think an AO would have a better chance of promotion to AP in a shorter period of time than a HEO, but this is not a given. Also, you could end up with a crap AO job where you have little chance to expand your experience and skills, or a HEO job which gives you great career opportunities!!


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## JohnnyMaher (5 Jan 2008)

Hiya, 
I might have been in a similar position, I got HEO from an internal competition, was in the position for 5 weeks and then got the AO from the open. I took the AO. Partly for the kudos (open v internal - the internal competition from which my replacement was selected had 6 applicants for 2 posts whereas the open, as you know, has a cast of thousands) and partly because the HEO post was decentralised and also because, god knows, a change is a good as a rest!
The basic advice was that it depends of the work you are asked/expected to do. At the same time most of the people whom I told I got the AO congratulated me (although they knew I was a HEO).  Even when I gave "notice" I was congratulated by the very people I was leaving in the sh*t!!! 
Of course I will carry over my HEO salary . I will try to carry over the HEO annual leave too. The AO increment is double that of the HEO as you probably know. 
I've wound up in a position (in terms of work) where it may make no odds what the grade is, in fact my APs didn't even know I was an AO and presumed I was a HEO (as that was the grade I was replacing). It will be interesting to see if they will make a difference...
In fact I have the best of both worlds, AO cachet and HEO street cred, not to mention HEO working conditions.... 
I hope to get the "year out" but as you may know, word on the gripevine (sic) is that they are doing away with that. I hope I get to be one of the last. 
My overall impression is that the difference is dead. AOs used to be the cream of the crop, the fast track, the "groomed for management", some made AP in 2 years. But that was in the days when the majority of COs didn't have PhDs! It is true that to want to be an AO is to have ambition, and some HEOs are at the pinnacle of their career. Between some HEOs and (god knows) some AOs there will be no difference, you have to make the difference yourself these days. Some AOs god love them fu*k up madly, esp. in staff management but you sound like an experienced EO+ so you should be able to handle that, so be an AO but act like a HEO towards staff, if you have them. 
My advice, take the HEO and THEN the AO if you can!  
Good luck!


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## JohnnyMaher (5 Jan 2008)

PS
you know my main worry? I'm thirty bloody nine!!!! Eek! AOs are supposed to be young and sexy!


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## triplex (8 Jan 2008)

JohnnyMaher, 

wouldn't worry, in most government departments you'll be considered a nipper! 


Agree with you regarding difference being 'dead'. The main difference was that AO used to get promoted to Assistant Principal automatically after 2 years, but that no longer happens. HEOs & AO's are pretty much the same now, but HEO's tend to have better management experience, and considering the emphasis placed on PMDS and staff management questions in interviews for Assistant Principals, AO's can often lag behind.


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## collieb (8 Jan 2008)

triplex said:


> JohnnyMaher,
> 
> The main difference was that AO used to get promoted to Assistant Principal automatically after 2 years, but that no longer happens.


 

Not so sure about this - up until 3 or 4 years ago you had to serve 3 years in a grade before you were eligible for promotion - it was reduced to 2 years as part of Sustaining Progress I think. But it is true that there is no longer a fast track to promotion - there are a good few AOs there for 4 - 5 years, but you could consider yourself unluck to have to wait any longer than that.


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## triplex (8 Jan 2008)

collieb, we are talking about two different things - you are correct re length of service in order to be considered ''eligible'' for promotion, my point is that the AO grade used to carry automatic promotion, and that this is no longer the case. There is no 'automatic' promotion for AO's anymore..


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## collieb (9 Jan 2008)

Ok, see what you mean - didn't rrealise there used to be automatic promotion.


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## liaconn (19 Jan 2008)

The AO grade was originally introduced at a time when very few people had access to 3rd level education, and it was a way of attracting graduates into the Civil Service. However, this is no longer a problem as large numbers of people joining the Civil Service are graduates in various disciplines. Many more are studying for degrees at night. Therefore, in practice there's little or no difference between the HEO and AO grades.

I'm a HEO in a large Gov Department. A few years ago I was moved into a post which had previously always been occupied by AOs, but there was no AO available at the time.The work was mundane, unchallenging and extremely boring. I was also left twiddling my thumbs a lot of the time despite repeated requests for more work. Eventually, I kicked up and was moved back into a HEO post. The job is 100% policy orientated, involves a high degree of responsibility and plenty of travel to Brussels to take part in meetings/discussions at EU level. I would, therefore, agree that the quality of work you get is not based on whether you are an AO or a HEO but on the area you are working in, and also on how well managed you are by your boss, and  your own initiative and self motivation.


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