# Irresponsible Commentary on Overseas Property



## Ric (7 Mar 2006)

Once again in today's INDO there is blanket condemnation of investment in property overseas. Last week Brendan who occupies the important role as Chairman of the Consumer Panel at IFSRA described overseas property as "speculation" and "gambling". What does this tell us of the panel? It is the case that it is an unregulated market and that poorly researched investors can get had for large sums but as an overseas property investor, one of tens of thousands who has successfully invested and researched markets and opportunities abroad I find it extraordinary that Brendan and others should condemn the entire world!

Blanket comments about rip offs and bubbles displays plain ignorance of the subject. There are several overseas markets that are not in a bubble and there are ways to buy good value from reputable operators without being ripped off. I find it extraordinary that there is considered and well researched commentary on equity investment, deposits, mortgages etc but knowledge of investment property is limited to slogans like those used by Brendan who should know better. It was cringing to hear Brendan refer to a waterless wasteland land last week on the radio only to be corrected by one of its inhabitants on such a basic matter like desalinisation. Dubai is another example. There appears to be a lot of hot air being blown about presumably by non-investors ie have any of these critics themselves ever invested abroad, travelled abroad and researched opportunities?

A great number of Irish investors have successfully invested overseas for several years acquiring both capital gains and relatively higher rental yields than at home. Financial firms like, Quinlan Private, Warren, Davy's, Merrion, Irish Life, Hibernian, Friends First have collectivey raised billions for overseas investment and huge numbers of individuals have similarly invested. It is ludicrous for non-investors with little by way of research to dismiss these as gamblers and speculators in my view. More considered comment should be made to be credible but maybe it is too late.


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## ubiquitous (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*

Suggestion to readers: substitute the word "dotcom" for "overseas" and "shares" for "property" in the above and read it once more.


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## bocade (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*

Ric, what overseas countries/areas do you consider have scope for capital appreciation in the coming years?


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## gearoidmm (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*

Agree with you that there are of course opportunities to be had for well researched, well thought out investors abroad. The article, I would imagine, is aimed at those who maybe aren't as canny as you are.

There are a lot of unscrupulous people out there making money on gullible people. Just look at the property pages - a couple of months ago, Shanghai was being touted as a sure thing with huge capital appreciation 'guaranteed'. Now the market there is apparently going downhill. Similarly, there was a drive to recruit Irish investors into the New York apartment market in the last 6 months of last year and that seems to be going backwards also.

The best of all though was reading the account in one of the papers last week of a property expo in the US organised by an Irish Estate Agent to get Americans to invest in Irish property, telling them how great the returns are - sounds familiar?

Articles like the one you mention aren't going to cause property prices in Warsaw to fall but might have the benefit of getting Irish investors to look twice before they leap.


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## bearishbull (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*

advert on radio today ;
"prices in turkey rise 20-30 percent a year"
then it fails to say past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.
this is clearly misleading ,if these rates were to continue for a decade the houses would be worth nine times as much in ten years which is obviously nonsense,a 100k house in turkey worth nearly a million in a decade,brendan is right theres a lot of fools rushing in,obviously theres bargains and deals to be had all the time but the vast majority wont get these deals only the very savy will.


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## Humpback (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				Ric said:
			
		

> It is ludicrous for non-investors with little by way of research to dismiss these as gamblers and speculators in my view.


 
Are we a little bit touchy there Ric??? Have you a vested interest in foreign property investment, over and above purchasing one yourself maybe?

Describing the purchase of foreign property as speculation by speculators is in no way dismissive. See here for a definition of speculation. Isn't the whole thing known as "property speculation"????



			
				Ric said:
			
		

> More considered comment should be made to be credible but maybe it is too late.


 
I think that there is much considered comment here on AAM by many of the frequent posters. Property speculation in foreign and 3rd world countries as an investment is being examined on it's merits.

It's the over the top comments by the many new posters on AAM defending such speculation that is, in my opinion, ill-considered. 

As has been pointed out, reading advertising blurb from a company trying to take your money in exchange for an apartment in a country where you may not even have travelled to is the height of lack of consideration. There is no balance there. Just because something is said in the advertising blurb doesn't make something true.

Just because you don't like the comments made here by many posters doesn't mean it's not considered. You're entitled to your opinions, just as we're all entitled to ours.


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## Ric (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*

Yes I agree with you. The bull property market is at an end in many spots and yes there are sharks pushing stupid deals that prey on peoples ignorance and greed but you don't counter these with an equal amount of ignorance. When you do so you destroy your own credibility. You need to consider that a great many investors see these examples as transparently as you and probably even more so because of practical overseas experience. My point is that critics despite being well meaning show up their own ignorance of the subject and insult a great many investors by using slogans like Brendans.


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				Ric said:
			
		

> Once again in today's INDO there is blanket condemnation of investment in property overseas.


 If you mean this article (free registration required) then it does not contain any such blanket comdemnation. Rather it warns about possible scams in this area. Surely a prudent piece of advice?


> Last week Brendan who occupies the important role as Chairman of the Consumer Panel at IFSRA described overseas property as "speculation" and "gambling".


 Can quote *verbatim *what he said please? I would be very surprised if _Brendan _issued a blanket dismissal of any investment (other than really whacky stuff) as *always *being speculation or gambling. Perhaps there was some qualification of these comments?


> What does this tell us of the panel?


 Was _Brendan _speaking in an official _IFSRA Consumer Panel _or a personal capacity? This is important.


> I find it extraordinary that Brendan and others should condemn the entire world!


 I find it so extraordinary that I don't believe it. Convince me otherwise if possible.


> Blanket comments about rip offs and bubbles displays plain ignorance of the subject.


 From whom and in what context?


> I find it extraordinary that there is considered and well researched commentary on equity investment, deposits, mortgages etc but knowledge of investment property is limited to slogans like those used by Brendan who should know better.


 Perhaps you are confusing blanket dismissals/condemnations with people highlighting possible caveats, pitfalls, risks etc. with any investment (including property - domestic or foreign) in order to challenge people considering such investments to think for themselves about all of the issues - in particular the potential cons as well as the pros. Any investment involves weighing these up, analysing the costs/benefits, crunching the numbers and taking an objective rather than an extremely positive or negative approach. _AAM _and the many contributors who post challenging and informative comments on such matters helps individuals to reach this goal.


> It was cringing to hear Brendan refer to a waterless wasteland land last week on the radio only to be corrected by one of its inhabitants on such a basic matter like desalinisation.


 Perhaps you can explain the context here. Where was Brendan speaking and about what?


> Dubai is another example. There appears to be a lot of hot air being blown about presumably by non-investors ie have any of these critics themselves ever invested abroad, travelled abroad and researched opportunities?


 Critics or those posting about the possible risks, pitfalls, issues? 


> A great number of Irish investors have successfully invested overseas for several years acquiring both capital gains and relatively higher rental yields than at home. Financial firms like, Quinlan Private, Warren, Davy's, Merrion, Irish Life, Hibernian, Friends First have collectivey raised billions for overseas investment and huge numbers of individuals have similarly invested. It is ludicrous for non-investors with little by way of research to dismiss these as gamblers and speculators in my view. More considered comment should be made to be credible but maybe it is too late.


 Please point out where any _AAM _contributor has issued a blanket dismissal or condemnation of foreign property investment.

Isn't this arguably more of a _Letting Off Steam _rather than a _Great Financial Debate_ issue? It seems to be more of a rant than an argument based on facts such as specific examples and quotes supporting the points raised. Perhaps you can rectify that?


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## ivuernis (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> As has been pointed out, reading advertising blurb from a company trying to take your money in exchange for an apartment in a country where you may not even have travelled to is the height of lack of consideration. There is no balance there. Just because something is said in the advertising blurb doesn't make something true.


 
Very true. These companies are advertising a "product" they want to sell but label it as an "investment" to the consumer. If the word "investment" was taken out it wouldn't sound as catchy or appealing would it?

Investment property, its just another product at the end of the day... and most products decrease in value over time.


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## bearishbull (7 Mar 2006)

ric are you or any or your family or friends involved in selling foreign property in irish market? 
i have a feeling you are.


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## Ric (7 Mar 2006)

Clubman, there was an interview with Matt Cooper last week. Brendan needs to take greater care.


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

Let's stick to the topic in hand. If _Ric _has genuine and supportable concerns/criticisms in this context let's discuss/address those. However _Ric _really needs to provide some supporting evidence/quotations for his accusations/insinuations before they can be taken seriously. Over to you _Ric_...


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

Ric said:
			
		

> Clubman, there was an interview with Matt Cooper last week. Brendan needs to take greater care.


 Please provide a link to the content or *specific verbatim *quotes. I have asked _Brendan _if he would like to clarify/challenge any of the issues raised here. 

Please also address the issues that I raised in response to your first post above otherwise this thread might be dismissed by some as some sort of mindless rant rather than a reasoned critique supported by evidence.


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## Theo (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				ubiquitous said:
			
		

> Suggestion to readers: substitute the word "dotcom" for "overseas" and "shares" for "property" in the above and read it once more.


 
In fact,, many dotcom companies have done extraordinarily well.  (FTD.com, eBAY, yahoo.com, google.com, i could go to valuelines and list about 50 others but my point is made). The crowd only hears about the failures, and the crowd generally relies on the newspapers and rte for their information.  The crowd sit on the fence and the crowd make 5% p.a. on their so called managed fund investments because that's what the average crowd expects.
Meanwhile, real investors are researching the market for themselves and investing what the crowd would see as substantial sums of money in their education, but what the crowd doesn't see is the return on that education that is being made.
The OP is absolutely right.  The best way to weed out those with blanket opinions is to ask them how their investments have done.  If its 5-8% p.a., then don't listen to any of them. If anyone is happy making those returns when there is significnatly more to be had for a little effort, then stay working at your job and good luck to you.


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## Ric (7 Mar 2006)

Clubman I have made my point and provided the source. This thread isn't driven my your agenda set above. I have stated that blanket condemnation has been made. I have given examples. It is up to you, should you wish to refute them and I will be happy to listen. BTW I have invested successfully over several years in Britain, Holland, France, Hungary and the Baltics. I still largely favour equities and believe that we are probably half way through the current business cycle.


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				Theo said:
			
		

> The best way to weed out those with blanket opinions is to ask them how their investments have done.


Steady on! First things first. Let's see if the issue of people having blanket opinions is valid first off. *Then *see what needs to be done about it if it is an issue. I am of the opinion that _Ric _is misinterpreting valid analysis of the possible pitfalls, risks, issues involved (often as a counterbalance to some overenthusiastic recommendations of certain options)  as some sort of blanket condemnation/dismissal of certain investment strategies. Just because somebody has not invested in a particular asset class/gengraphic region/etc. does not preclude them from discussin the potential pros and cons. The floor is open to _Ric _to prove me wrong by posting relevant evidence to support his accusations/insinuations above.


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

Ric said:
			
		

> Clubman I have made my point and provided the source. This thread isn't driven my your agenda set above.


 No - but addressing some of the issues that I have raised would help to clarify if your arguments have merit. 


> I have stated that blanket condemnation has been made. I have given examples.


 You have attributed certain comments to certain people - most notably _Brendan_ - without providing the full context and verbatim comments (or links to same). 

The _Indo _article that you mentioned (assuming that I have identified the correct one) does not contain any blanket condemnation of foreign property investment as you have asserted. 

Basically you have not provided sufficient supporting evidence so far for your arguments to be taken as merited.


> It is up to you, should you wish to refute them


 No - *you *need to support *your *arguments with evidence before people can attempt to rebut/refute them if/where necessary. As it stands your posts seem like generalised rants I'm afraid.


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## Chamar (7 Mar 2006)

What are you so uppity about the words "gambling and speculating"? If you invest in something that is exactly what you are doing. I don't care how well researched etc it is. Nobody can see into the future.

I imagine the "waterless wasteland" comment is being used just to illustrate the pointt that these overseas investments are being sold as certain goldmines and it is fair to counter such beliefs with that, while desalinisation can be a(n expensive) solution, factually they have to effectively import water to survive. I would certainly want to know that if I were being pitched to.


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

Chamar said:
			
		

> I imagine the "waterless wasteland" comment ...


 This is part of the problem. I can imagine _Brendan _saying all sorts of things about all sorts of issues. However unless somebody can tell us *precisely what he actually said* then we are in the realm of speculation and possibly drawing conclusions from things that never happened. We already have one myth exposed above - that an article in today's _Indo _issuing a blanket condemnation of foreign property investment - which must undermine confindence in other stuff that _Ric _says. Note that the Indo article concludes:


> [FONT=Verdana, Arial] Property advisers say the best way to avoid being scammed and get good value is to source your own property, do plenty of homework, and seek independent advice.



Not a blanket condemnation in sight! 
[/FONT]


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## Humpback (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				Theo said:
			
		

> In fact,, many dotcom companies have done extraordinarily well. (FTD.com, eBAY, yahoo.com, google.com, i could go to valuelines and list about 50 others but my point is made).


 
And with an approximate 80% dotcom failure rate in the year 2002 alone, I don't think that your point is well made. "The crowd" as you put it, is only hearing the bumpf from those selling the properties, and those who have shelled out already claiming paper profits.

In the same way as we only actually hear the names of the successful dotcom companies. Give me the names of wellknown (on this side of the atlantic), high profile dotcom failures? 

Will we hear from people who took the plunge (BOO.COM anyone) and lost their money because they didn't do the full research on what they were buying into?

Given all the publicity these days, regarding looking before you leap, I don't think we will. What would people have to complain about? The were greedy and rushed in, and lost their money. They know they'll get no sympathy.


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## Duplex (7 Mar 2006)

I must say Ric that Brendan piece is fair comment.  Anyone considering buying an investment property abroad should surely undertake research into both the risks ad rewards offered?


If you were to consider legislative risk for, example just one of several primary criteria.


In China the Government has introduced anti speculation legislation which has caused prices to fall in parts of Shanghai by as much as 30%.  Now was this a foreseeable risk, well China is governed by a an unelected communist party, traditional communist ideology has a particular abhorrence of speculation, unelected governments are more likely to exercise executive powers with impunity.    

In some Eastern European countries foreigners are required to purchase property through a company. I consider this a risk as it allows the government to differentiate between domestic owners and foreign owners by simply altering company law in such a way as to place non domestic owners at a disadvantage.
 

However you cant eliminate risk, you can attempt to quantify it and compare risk/reward across several investment options though.  I get the impression that many Irish investors look no further than the asking price and the agents projection of rental income, do a quick tally and arrive at,  'It’s a no brainer’


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## bearishbull (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				Theo said:
			
		

> In fact,, many dotcom companies have done extraordinarily well. (FTD.com, eBAY, yahoo.com, google.com, i could go to valuelines and list about 50 others but my point is made). The crowd only hears about the failures, and the crowd generally relies on the newspapers and rte for their information. The crowd sit on the fence and the crowd make 5% p.a. on their so called managed fund investments because that's what the average crowd expects.
> Meanwhile, real investors are researching the market for themselves and investing what the crowd would see as substantial sums of money in their education, but what the crowd doesn't see is the return on that education that is being made.
> The OP is absolutely right. The best way to weed out those with blanket opinions is to ask them how their investments have done. If its 5-8% p.a., then don't listen to any of them. If anyone is happy making those returns when there is significnatly more to be had for a little effort, then stay working at your job and good luck to you.


yes a few dot.com companies didnt lose 90% of value but majority did and even the more diversified nasdaq is less than half what it was in 2001. 5-7% is not too bad for the average man as it has low risk ,you are talking about taking on higher risk with hope of higher return,but no matter how well you educate yourself theres no guanantees,you see many top investment professionals losing their shirts when high risk road is taken.anyone can make money in a bull market without any innate ability.


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

OK - here is a bullet pointed list of comments by _Ric _that need supporting evidence or else run the risk of being dismissed as groundless rants:
Once again in today's INDO there is blanket condemnation of investment in property overseas. [Already proven as incorrect above]
Last week Brendan who occupies the important role as Chairman of the Consumer Panel at IFSRA described overseas property as "speculation" and "gambling". [Specific quotations please?]
What does this tell us of the panel? [Was he speaking in a personal or official IFSRA CP capacity?]
I find it extraordinary that Brendan and others should condemn the entire world! [Quotes/evidence please?]
Blanket comments about rip offs and bubbles displays plain ignorance of the subject. [Context/quotes/evidence please?]
I find it extraordinary that ... knowledge of investment property is limited to slogans like those used by Brendan who should know better. [Quotes/evidence please?]
It was cringing to hear Brendan refer to a waterless wasteland land last week on the radio only to be corrected by one of its inhabitants on such a basic matter like desalinisation. [Context/quotes please?]
There appears to be a lot of hot air being blown about [Where?]
It is ludicrous for non-investors with little by way of research to dismiss these as gamblers and speculators in my view. [Quotes/evidence please?]
More considered comment should be made to be credible but maybe it is too late. [Clarification please?]


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## JohnnyBoy (7 Mar 2006)

Anybody got any thoughts about Quinlan investments in eastern Europe?,I'm thinking of getting involved


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

Please keep this thread . Create a new thread for off topic queries.


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## Ric (7 Mar 2006)

Clubman you asked for the link  see Tuesday about 6.40pm. "Generally speaking overseas holiday locations I would not consider them investments they are somewhere between speculation and gambling.............this is very close to gambling" These comments were made without even a basic understanding it appears about desalinisation and condemn investors in Dubai as well. This is precisely why I have made the comments above.


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## Humpback (7 Mar 2006)

Ric said:
			
		

> Clubman you asked for the link  see Tuesday about 6.40pm.


 
Is the "Carlos, representative of the Cape Verdean government" in that radio clip, the same Carlos that posts exclusively on Cape Verde here?


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## DrMoriarty (7 Mar 2006)

Ric said:
			
		

> Clubman, there was an interview with Matt Cooper last week. Brendan needs to take greater care.


Speaking of backing up claims/assertions — I heard that interview — extremely short, in comparison with the time allotted to the bould Eddie, the previous evening (I heard that one too, and posted a link here, at the time, although by now it's presumably gone).

On balance, Brendan's comments were largely to the effect that a potential investor 'needs to take greater care' than to take as gospel the hype coming from Liberty Assets and their roadshow. If he described overseas property investment as 'speculation' and 'gambling', it was in the context of someone signing over their €160K _without_ taking independent advice and checking things out for themselves...

So, Ric, unless you can adduce some specific, factual references to back up your own 'blanket' claims — not solely based on your own wealth of 'take-it-from-me' experience and purported, unspecified 'research' — I'm inclined to suspect that the balance of 'irresponsibility' lies elsewhere...


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

Ric said:
			
		

> Clubman you asked for the link  see Tuesday about 6.40pm. "Generally speaking overseas holiday locations I would not consider them investments they are somewhere between speculation and gambling.............this is very close to gambling" These comments were made without even a basic understanding it appears about desalinisation and condemn investors in Dubai as well. This is precisely why I have made the comments above.


 Thanks. So _Brendan _gave what was presumably his *personal *(not official _IFSFA Consumer Panel_ or _Askaboutmoney.com_) opinion on such investments and you disagree as is your prerogative? Nothing about the general attitude of the _IFSRA CP _or _AAM _generally can be inferred from these comments as you suggest. I don't see how that supports all of the other issues/claims that you raise above. In particular far from illustrating that there is a blanket condemnation or dismissal of foreign property investment at work here on _AAM_, on the part of the _IFSRA CP _or in the _Indo _those comments don't even prove that _Brendan _issues such blanket condemnations/dismissals himself!

Feel free to address some of the other bullet point issues highlighted above when you get a chance.


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## RainyDay (7 Mar 2006)

Hi Ric - 
Personally, I feel that the many skeptical views expressed on AAM in relation to overseas property have been just that - skeptical, not critical.

It is extremely important that you declare professional interest you have in this matter, given that you are criticising a named individual (in this case Brendan) while using an pseudonym. You claim to have a deep knowledge on this topic. Readers are entitled to understand if this knowledge arises from your profession. I'm not expecting you to breach any confidences or identify yourself - but you do need to explain where you are coming from.


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## Ric (7 Mar 2006)

If Brendan goes on radio espousing views that are based on annonymous comments that appear here then isn't it reasonable to expect annonymous criticism? (With very few exceptions such as Rainyday and Brendan and a tiny handful of others all other posters are annonymous including those posting about property). If that becomes the basis of public broadcast then it is reasonable to expect criticism. I respect any person who puts their head up and writes or contributes to public debate be it an economist, an accountant or opinionated people like Hobbs etc but in Brendans case in this instance he is drawing on his AAM platform which is open to annonymous ill-informed commentary including from vested interests.


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## casiopea (7 Mar 2006)

Ric,

You are entitled to disagree with Brendan but that doesnt make Brendans's comments "blanket comments" or generalisations.  He is also entitled to his opinion and just because he is the founder of AAM and a great contributer doesnt mean that he is drawing on his AAM platform everytime he speaks.  

Personally I think you need to answer Rainyday and ClubMans questions (for actual quotes/context) or else the thread should be closed.

cas.


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## Calina (7 Mar 2006)

Effectively, the sum of the Independent article to me is "do your homework before you buy or you will get burnt". I don't see what's so irresponsible about that. I'd have to question how such advice could adversely affect someone like Ric who claims to have done quite well out of international property investments over the course.

Personally, I have moral issues around the whole question of international property investment anyway, between holiday homes and investment complexes, so I'm hardly a balanced observer. I will say this though: I'm mesmerised by the number of people who, on realising the complexity of doing anything involving business or property here in Ireland, think it'll be easier somewhere else when they can't speak the local language.


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## Duplex (7 Mar 2006)

Ric

To be fair I think that the share of airtime given to the joys of buying property overseas on programmes broadcast on RTE, BBC, Channel 4 and UTV etc.  compared to the rather docile  ‘careful now’ remarks by Brendan will hardly cause an overseas property crash.    In fact Brendan might be doing existing owners of overseas investors a favour by encouraging a more rational considered approach to buying abroad, thus supporting existing valuations with sustainable long term demand.  I wonder if you would have complained as robustly if an agent peddling flats in far flung locations was given airtime, a much more frequent occurrence in my opinion.

The Spanish market’ which has slowed considerably, did so because of pricing pressure, poor returns and alternative investment competition, and certainly not because of adverse press coverage.


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## Sherman (7 Mar 2006)

I notice Ric that despite several invitations to do so, you have not stated whether you have any professional interest in overseas property.

You certainly seem to have an emotional (financial?) interest in the discussion.


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

_Ric _also continues to evade the issue of substantiating most of the claims that he has made in this thread and which I have summarised in bullet point form above for ease of reference. Of the two that have been addressed to any reasonable extent neither stands up to scrutiny as a valid accusation on the basis of the evidence provided (viz. the _Indo _article does not issue a "blanket condemnation" of foreign property investment and _Brendan's_ quoted comments above do not seem to purport to be anything other than his personal - rather than official _IFSRA CP/AAM _- opinions on the matter and don't necessarily represent a blanket dismissal/condemnation of foreign property investment either).


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## soma (7 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				Ric said:
			
		

> You need to consider that a great many investors see these examples as transparently as you and probably even more so because of practical overseas experience.


Again Ric, it's not people like that who are vulnerable in this situation, they'll do their own research & make decisions based on calculated analysis. There are *always* boom/bull markets in the world for someone who has the time & talent to find them - it's people who now seem to think that *all* property, *anywhere* just shoots up by definition.


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## Ric (7 Mar 2006)

No problem, you all reveal your names, professions and your investment property interests and I'll swap how about that? As for Clubman I have made my point quite precisely and proved where a blanket comment was made that lacked analysis. I didn't expect you to agree and you more or less rallied around your previous opinions as I thought you would but at least henceforth you might be more considered in your views and expect annonymous criticism much like yours when you screw up. End.


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## soma (7 Mar 2006)

While I'm sitting here reading this thread on overseas property, the following conversation has just occoured b/t two co-workers a few desks away.

CW1 (gets off phone) "eh.. it looks like I'm buying an apartment.. apparently"

CW2 "Great, where is it..?"

CW1 "It's in the caribean, on one of the islands"

CW2 "which one..?"

CW1 "emm... Saint.. Saint.. Saint something or other. I think the 2nd word has starts with an 'F'".

CW2 "Nice one man, you'll make a mint."


It's *case-closed* time people


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## Calina (7 Mar 2006)

Ric said:
			
		

> A great number of Irish investors have successfully invested overseas for several years acquiring both capital gains and relatively higher rental yields than at home. Financial firms like, Quinlan Private, Warren, Davy's, Merrion, Irish Life, Hibernian, Friends First have collectivey raised billions for overseas investment and huge numbers of individuals have similarly invested. It is ludicrous for non-investors with little by way of research to dismiss these as gamblers and speculators in my view. More considered comment should be made to be credible but maybe it is too late.


Ric,

just so as you know: stating that financial firms like X, Y and Z have raised billions for overseas investment is not proof that a great number of Irish investors have successfully invested overseas for several years, etc, etc, etc. 

Additionally, your analysis of the article concerned is totally flawed. What it boils down to is "if you are not careful, you may well get screwed over". That's not the picture you paint. As such, I don't know if I can take your complaints with any credibility at all. 

And although I don't personally care whether you cough up vested interest info or not, the impression I have is that it does not benefit you to have people actually taking care when they are coughing up vast numbers of euros to buy property abroad. 

So, the question I would like an answer to is this: Does it hurt you directly either financially or professionally if people who have money to spend actually take a little bit of care in how they spend it? I don't care what your name is or who you work for, but I am interested in an answer to that question.

You seem to be reticent on this type of information however...


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## ClubMan (7 Mar 2006)

Ric said:
			
		

> As for Clubman I have made my point quite precisely and proved where a blanket comment was made that lacked analysis.


 OK - I take it as read that you withdraw all of the other unsubstantiated accusations/insinuations that went before so (e.g. the incorrect claim that the _Indo _article carried in your exact words _"a blanket condemnation of investment in property overseas"_, that _Brendan's _personal opinions in no way reflect the views of the _IFSRA CP _or _AAM _as a whole, that these or any other critical/skeptical views on foreign property (or other) investments are necessarily "irresponsible" and so on)?


> you more or less rallied around your previous opinions as I thought you would


 I don't understand what this means. Please clarify.


> but at least henceforth you might be more considered in your views


 Please point out where I was not considered in my views in relation to this matter?


> and expect annonymous criticism much like yours when you screw up. End.


 What criticism? It seems to me that _Brendan _(and by mistaken extension the _IFSRA CP _and _AAM _as a whole) and the _Indo _are the main targets of your criticism - not me in particular. However I am quite prepared to take on board constructive and substantiated criticism if you have any that is relevant to me in particular. Just please provide some supporting evidence this time. For example - maybe you would like to explain precisely where you believe that I personally have _"screwed up"_ (presumably in relation to the issue of foreign property investment)? For what it's worth and in case of any confusion as has arisen before - I am not _Brendan _and _Brendan _is not _ClubMan_.

By the way - also for what it's worth, while I agree that contributors should declare any relevant vested interests as outlined in the posting guidelines, I don't agree with others here who believe that you should not remain anonymous or that you (or anybody else) needs to get into a pissing contest in relation to how their property or other investments have done in order to comment on such matters. On the other I do strongly believe that for a discussion such as this to qualify for _The Great Financial Debates _rather than _Letting Off Steam _there should be some basis and evidence underpinning serious accusations and insinuations. Other than the one quote from _Brendan _above you have failed to provide this sort of supporting information. As such, in the continuing absence of such evidence I will continue to treat your comments as mindless rants rather than reasoned criticism and would urge others to treat them likewise.


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## paddlepuss (7 Mar 2006)

Sorry I missed that spat. Not enough people are warning about the dangers of investing overseas. A craze has taken hold and there is definitely a new type of investor who is breaking all the rules in the rush into the market. I haven't heard enough people raise their voice. Brendan Burgess is one, David Mc Williams (who has been wrong every year for years but is now probably right), Damien Kiberd, Eddie Hobbs etc have all written on the subject with hardly a dent in the issue. Against are the combined voice of banks, auctioneers, selling agents and some economists who continue to pooh pooh the notion of falling property prices at home.


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## tyoung (7 Mar 2006)

*Dja vue all over again*

I remember Brendan making very negative remarks about tech stocks on The Motley Fool in late 1999 and getting critised for them. By contrast his remarks this time are relatively mild.


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## paddlepuss (7 Mar 2006)

It would make an interesting study to ask each of these how much flak they have already drawn.


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## hmmm (7 Mar 2006)

paddlepuss said:
			
		

> David Mc Williams (who has been wrong every year for years but is now probably right),


Just a side point - economists have been saying houses are overvalued, not that they will fall in price. They may or may not be wrong, if the market choses to pay over the fair value then you can hardly accuse economists of being "wrong".


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Mar 2006)

Folks, I have been on the go all day and hadn't realised that such an interesting debate was going on in my absence. Thank you all for defending me but you are wasting your time and energy dealing with guys like Ric. They pop up from time to time making wild allegations and I suspect that some of them are just trying to stir up controversy for the sake of it. Some others are earning a living through selling overseas property and don't want  anyone calling for caution.

If people listen to the comments I have made over the years, some will miss out on good opportunities, but a hell of a lot more will save themselves from being ripped off. 

And just to clarify, I have never made any public comment in my role as Chair of the Consumer Panel of the Financial Regulator. All such comments are made in my personal capacity. 

I will not be contributing further to this thread. 

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (7 Mar 2006)

Hi Ric

I hadn't realised that you had such a sense of humour or irony when you posted this one under your other user name: Covenant. 

Speaking with my moderator's hat on, we don't really like people posting the same views under two different user names. It gives the impression that lots of people think that investing in Cape Verde is a no brainer [sic]. 

Can you choose one or other name and I will delete the other. Ric is more entertaining, but Covenant is a bit more balanced. But it's up to you. 

If you are posting as Ric in your professional capacity, we might make an exception, if you  state your professional affiliations. 

Brendan
Administrator


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## soma (8 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				bearishbull said:
			
		

> advert on radio today ;
> "prices in turkey rise 20-30 percent a year"
> then it fails to say past performance is not a guarantee of future performance.


I heard that for the 1st time on the radio this morning and I was stunned!! 

If that isn't "Irresponsible Comment on Overseas Property" I don't know what is..


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## ClubMan (8 Mar 2006)

> "prices in turkey rise 20-30 percent a year"


 Maybe they're referring to general consumer price inflation? Although to be fair to _Turkey _I think that they managed to gain more control over their economy since the not too distant days of hyper-inflation over there. According to [broken link removed] it's around 8% (a 30 year low) these days. Obviously general consumer price inflation is another relevant factor to research when considering a foreign property investment since it's going to hit your property management/maintenance and other costs going forward.


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## bearishbull (8 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				soma said:
			
		

> I heard that for the 1st time on the radio this morning and I was stunned!!
> 
> If that isn't "Irresponsible Comment on Overseas Property" I don't know what is..


 
do you think we should contact advertising standards  or ifsra(probably not relevant as foreign property investment not regulated as far as i can see)


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## soma (8 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				bearishbull said:
			
		

> do you think we should contact advertising standards  or ifsra(probably not relevant as foreign property investment not regulated as far as i can see)


Well I did think it was a bit of a sign from God that very next radio ad was from BCI asking for opinions on the standards of radio & TV advertising!


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## bearishbull (8 Mar 2006)

just heard this ad again it says "prices in turkey rise between 20 and 30 per cent *and more*" how can prices rise by between 20 and 30 % but then by more than that!


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## Murt10 (8 Mar 2006)

*Re: Irresponsible Comment Overseas Property*



			
				bearishbull said:
			
		

> advert on radio today ;
> "prices in turkey rise 20-30 percent a year".




Didn't you know, its not like all the other bubbles. THIS TIME IT'S DIFFERENT (honest!)


Murt


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## Glenbhoy (8 Mar 2006)

> Posted by Callina:
> Personally, I have moral issues around the whole question of international property investment anyway, between holiday homes and investment complexes, so I'm hardly a balanced observer. I will say this though: I'm mesmerised by the number of people who, on realising the complexity of doing anything involving business or property here in Ireland, think it'll be easier somewhere else when they can't speak the local language


Is it an indictment of our society that so few people mention the moral implications of overseas investments.  It has long been a pet subject of mine, that so few overseas property investors see that there may be long term implications for that economy which they are buying into.  I know that this is an investment forum, but it's heartening to hear someone else mention this.
In addition, the lack of regard many investors hold for the local language and legalities can be stunning - like most contributors on here, I have the usual anecdotal story of someone I know heading off to Bulgaria and coming home with 2 apartments (but he got a free flight), now I may be a little sceptical, but this does remind me somewhat of the end of the dotcom boom.  I can't help but be reminded of Joe Kennedy and the shoeshine boy.


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## markowitzman (8 Mar 2006)

I think Ric/Covenant has a vested interest in plugging the foreign investment stuff from reading the thread thus far. His silence reinforces the point.
Pity really........
I hope he is selling overseas stuff so we could quiz him on returns yields etc.
Lets call a spade a spade........
if you buy an oversea property by looking at a set of plans in a Dublin hotel without going to see the area and not getting independent tax and legal advice you are a plonker and a gambler......period.
Sadly selling overseas property to the Irish is as easy as selling muck.
The vested interest (possibly Ric and co) do not like adverse publicity.
In this regard Brendan is to be lauded in raising these concerns about the glib way overseas property is being purchased and I support him fully in this regard.


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## ClubMan (8 Mar 2006)

If my net worth was several million and I already owned my own house, had a well diversified portfolio comprising investments in different asset classes, geographic regions, risk/reward profiles (well - two out of three ain't bad ) then I could probably afford to risk buying a foreign property based on no more than a bit of casual research (at best) and a chat with an agent with a vested interest in buttering me up and selling me something. But many people who do this are not in that comfortable position and so are most likely being less prudent than their situation requires. This does not mean that foreign property investment is intrinsically bad/wrong. Rather that for a variety of reasons it is not necessarily suited to most people who get involved, and many of the people who are engaging in it (especially those who have not first of all weighed up all of the other possibly more suitable investment options - equities, debt reduction, pension savings etc.).


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## CCOVICH (8 Mar 2006)

markowitzman said:
			
		

> Pity really........



Why?  Given that Covenant attempted to cast doubt on your motivations for posting in this thread, I wouldn't have any pity for him/them.  And mocking anonymous recommendations?  An anonymous recomendation is not as suspicious as someone regsitering under multiple usernames........

I for one would be glad if we heard no more crap from him/her.  The Property Investment thread is extremely popular and is full of plenty frequent posters who are enthuasiastic on overseas (and Irish property).  What Brendan and any of the other moderators think is largely irrelevant, we only express our personal (not collective) opinions, that are there to be refuted or ignored by those that don't agree.


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## markowitzman (8 Mar 2006)

Clubman invariably the high net worth person sees straight through these scam artists as they have the advisors to do the scouting for them.
CCOVICH I would love to ask detailed questions of Ric on foreign property investments.
I am just so sceptical on these "costa del local hotel" property exhibitions and high pressure "viewing trips"!!
Quizing Ric would hopefully get to the bottom of this.
Re him casting doubt on my motivations on the thread I pm'd him with a crystal clear explanation of my chosen career (not financial advisor!) and the fact that I had no link with company I recommended. I finally asked Covenant for an apology to me in this regard on the thread.
Sadly Covenant (sorry Ric!) never did so and instead changed his username........


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## Calina (8 Mar 2006)

Glenbhoy said:
			
		

> Is it an indictment of our society that so few people mention the moral implications of overseas investments.  It has long been a pet subject of mine, that so few overseas property investors see that there may be long term implications for that economy which they are buying into.  I know that this is an investment forum, but it's heartening to hear someone else mention this.



Hmmm....is it fair to expect overseas property investors who might not even be considering their own economic future in too much detail to worry about the possible implications for the economy they may be investing in?

I don't know if an indepth discussion of the moral issues of international property investment is really on topic here...my view has always been that property should house the locals first and foremost and property should be framed with their needs in mind first and foremost.

But that's by way of an aside to this thread.


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## markowitzman (8 Mar 2006)

Please dont tell this to the multitude of american multinationals that have invested in our little country!
They invested to get a return on their equity just like overseas property investors in places like spain baltic states etc..
Using the argument of "housing the locals first"........we would be still be dancing at the crossroads here!!
Don't worry......the overseas governments are no fools.......they like us can tweak their tax laws to bring in the investors money and then tax it to the hilt as time goes on.


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## CCOVICH (9 Mar 2006)

Guys-on topic please.  The moral issues can be discussed elsewhere.


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## Glenbhoy (10 Mar 2006)

> Don't worry......the overseas governments are no fools.......they like us can tweak their tax laws to bring in the investors money and then tax it to the hilt as time goes on


I know what you mean - the problem may lie with who exactly that particular government's paymasters are as it may be the payer who sets the agenda.
Anyway, I know this aint the place for this discussion so I'll leave it there (that place will be after my 5th pint tomorrow night (and as for the moral implications of binge drinking and worse during the lenten season )- it's been a mad week!!).


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## almo (13 Mar 2006)

I've watched this thread with interest and there has been a lot of sense spoken and the most recent comments, on the local governments stepping in, is an issue that is beginning to come to the fore in a number of markets, especially here in Croatia.  There are simple rules of how and when to buy, not before seeing the property, not before getting a feel for the place, not before seeing the ups and downs of buying the place - this especially goes for those wishing to relocate or spend more than a 2 week holiday each year.

Rental returns are never certain and only a 3-card trick merchant will try sell guaranteed yields - esp. in the cases of Dubai, Croatia and Turkey (witnessed 1st hand).  

Also learning a bit about the country in advance helps immensely, as well as asking "tricky" questions about the place when you're planning to go or are there.  How else would you be able to read between the lines when you hear somebody tell you, with complete sincerity - mostly - that the government will no longer allow foreigners to buy, only to hold their property as concessions.  Or when "professional" agents tell you that you cannot buy as an individual but only as a Limited company.  It happens all the time and unfortunately it's not going to be helped unless more people are open and frank in forums like this and not embarassed by needing to learn.

I know my colleagues have found it a problem when folks from away land in and are totally misinformed and end up in a daze not knowing who or what to believe.

If you want to buy abroad, do so by doing your homework, not only on the property market, but on culture, politics etc and ask all the questions before you head out!


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## stuart (13 Mar 2006)

I also have followed this thread with interest
I must state I have some conflict of interest as I do provide proeprty investment advice
But I do not provide investment advice on properties outside of Ireland

I think there should be a distinction between investing in property in an overseas location and the popular "keep up with the Jones' " concept of "overseas investment"

You must have done all the relevant and irrelevant research before investing in property, whether it is down the road or around the world

I believe, but don't want to speak for him, that Brendan was referring to the idea that people asssume that all small economies are going to perform like Ireland's has for the past 12 years and that there are 20 property booms in the offing all over Europe
And that if you are not in you will lose out

This probably is speculation and/or gambling

On the other hand there is nothing wrong, I believe, in investing in a country that is not not your country of residence
Providing that all, as I stated above, relevant and irrelevant research is done to the correct level

Simply, if you were to buy and investment property 2 miles from your home
a) Would you go and look at it?
b) Would you get a structural survey?
c) Would you get quotes for any work required?
d) Would you research (yourself) what rental income you can *expect*?
e) How will any income be taxed?
f)  What other taxes are going to be due?
g) What otehr obligations will I have as a landlord?
h) ......

If you would do all this for that property, why would you do any less for a property that is going to be even more difficult to look after is there are any problems?

When people purchase proprety without following these steps then they are speculating/gambling on a property whether it is here or abroad?

stuart@buyingtolet.ie


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## almo (13 Mar 2006)

Thank you for putting what I was tryign to say in a structured manner Stuart   Doing homework, and reading through/past the propaganda is essential.

So many people land in a place with a certain concept in mind and anything else seems alien.  So many end up disappointed as they find that the local levels of workmanship is "not what we expected", well guess what, this stone house was built in 1901, survived 4 major wars and the reason it's so cheap is because it needs to be completely overhauled!  Okay, I know my colleagues wouldn't snap in that manner, but sometimes it might not hurt!

One of the sweetest places that should be the real pearl of the Adriatic is.....Albania.  Beautiful countryside, golden sandy beaches, plenty of skilled, cheap and willing labour, but it's not even advisable to go for holidays (there are military curfews in place in a number of cities and towns).  Then go up the road to Montenegro where there is a civil war bubbling, problems with ownership and a massively discontented populace, ditto with Bosnia, but yet there are those willing to speculate, even buy off plans, with the view to cashing in on some expected boom.  My only hope is that boom doesn't come from artillery in the hills above!!


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## redo (13 Mar 2006)

almo said:
			
		

> T  My only hope is that boom doesn't come from artillery in the hills above!!



LOL


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## almo (13 Mar 2006)

It's very funny, unless you've sunk your savings into a place in Dubrovnik! Apart from being an immensely boring place, it's still a bone of contention for all those former residents who were "cleansed" by Croatians, plus it's cut off by a little strip of Bosnia from the rest of us.

But I suppose it's human nature, I can't remember from 2nd Year Geography in UCD the exact numbers as I was too busy trying to figure out why of the world's population living in danger zones (natural or human made). I think it's well over 60%!

Although one place of interest, Jordan, has seen the price of land on the borders with Iraq and Israel leap in the past 3 years, I wonder why?


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## Qawra (17 Mar 2006)

I have investede in Malta. They are English speaking, friendly and the Maltese people are a nation who cannot do enough for you. It is only a 3.5 hour flight. They have just joined the EU and have a huge tourist industry. At the moment there is some quite cheap proerty. The gamble is that the capital gains tax rate is 35%. I think the EU will make them bring this down but maybe I am being too optimistic.


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## askalot (17 Mar 2006)

Qawra said:
			
		

> I have investede in Malta. They are English speaking, friendly and the Maltese people are a nation who cannot do enough for you. It is only a 3.5 hour flight. They have just joined the EU and have a huge tourist industry. At the moment there is some quite cheap proerty. The gamble is that the capital gains tax rate is 35%. I think the EU will make them bring this down but maybe I am being too optimistic.



Lets hope the EU never gets to setting taxes or else we'll see much higher tax rates in Ireland. So I hope for your sake that the lowering of CGT in Malta is not solely reliant on the EU but then 35% is not that high anyway.

After some consideration I stayed out of foreign property investment because I just couldn't help wondering how we in Ireland would have felt if, in the pre-boom 80s, a swarm of Japanese investors had pushed up Irish property prices and become our landlords.

Speaking to friends who have invested it seems their decision is based on ''what happened here will happen there''. But the EU is a very different place, Germany and France are very different economies and the social background to the new member states is vastly different to that of Ireland in the 70s and 80s. There is very little willingness fom the governments of 'old Europe' to hand money over to the 'new Europe' who is perceived as a threat to investment and jobs.

I think the gamble is more that just the 35% CGT.


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## casiopea (17 Mar 2006)

askalot said:
			
		

> Speaking to friends who have invested it seems their decision is based on ''what happened here will happen there''. But the EU is a very different place, Germany and France are very different economies and the social background to the new member states is vastly different to that of Ireland in the 70s and 80s.



I very much agree with askalot, countries like germany, france, austria, denmark, luxemburg and to lesser extent italy have had stable wealthy economies for many decades and are very very different to ireland in 70s/80s.  There is also a substantial between them and ireland now in that theyve had many decades (even centuries in some cases) to invest their wealth in their infrastructure.

Investing in properties abroad, based on the irish model ''what happened here will happen there'' or "property is the only way to make a good profit" (which is what I hear at home) is in my opinion a dangerous game.


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## almo (18 Mar 2006)

35% is the same as here in Croatia, but it's avoided once the 3 year ownership window closes.

I think in Malta the market is pretty good as there are 400,000 people living there and a real pressure on land.  I don't know if this was true, I was told it at the St. Patrick's Day do here yesterday afternoon, that peope can only own 1 house in Malta.  Sounds a bit draconian, and I'm sure there's ways around it, but that could be a model that if adopted in Ireland would shock a heck of a lot of folks!  What would happen to ranelagh, Rathmines and Phibsborough?


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## soma (22 Mar 2006)

A timely comment from the IAIM. (This was also on the RTE News @9 last night altho I didnt see it).

I also find something else about this article very interesting. The article (quite correctly & responsibly) asks the IAIM to concede that they have a vested interest in Irish People investing their money elsewhere. 

However when have you *ever* seen the Irish Media, when e.g. interviewing an "economist" with an Estate Agent or a Mortgage Bank, ask them to concede that *they* have a vested interest in talking up the property market..? Double standards indeed.



			
				The Irish Times said:
			
		

> Investment managers warn of overseas property mania
> *Laura Slattery
> *
> Vulnerable Irish consumers are being swept up in a mania of overseas property buying despite a complete lack of regulation or advertising standards in the industry, the Irish Association of Investment Managers (IAIM) warned yesterday.              The IAIM says the advertising of exorbitant and supposedly guaranteed rates of return without qualification or disclosure is becoming a regular feature of advertisements by overseas property vendors.
> ...


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## bearishbull (22 Mar 2006)

soma said:
			
		

> A timely comment from the IAIM. (This was also on the RTE News @9 last night altho I didnt see it).
> 
> I also find something else about this article very interesting. The article (quite correctly & responsibly) asks the IAIM to concede that they have a vested interest in Irish People investing their money elsewhere.
> 
> However when have you *ever* seen the Irish Media, when e.g. interviewing an "economist" with an Estate Agent or a Mortgage Bank, ask them to concede that *they* have a vested interest in talking up the property market..? Double standards indeed.


exactly.
most newspapers are making a fortune from property adverts/supplements. why dont you write a letter to the paper for its letters page outlining this hypocrisy.


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## ubiquitous (22 Mar 2006)

I reckon you would be wasting your time, unless of course you are placing 40+ pages of ads each week with them. They know better than to bite the hand that feeds.


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## almo (22 Mar 2006)

What a load of tosh, sorry for the language, but the so-called "spokesperson" for FOPDAC, their own company get local agents (I know for here) to find property for them and their clients, and the done thing is to stick on mid to high 4 figures for the local agent on top of the commission they're getting anyway!  This supposed association of agents and developers are so minimal it's not funny.  The price for paddies is very disingenuous and anywhere you go there is a local price and a "western" price normally in operation when the local agents are unlicenced or registered, yet a fopdac member allowed it's clients to put down a deposit and sign contracts for an obviously fradulent construction only last May....hmm, rigorously vetted indeed.

When something like this appears in a newspaper it is usually because the folks mentioned in it are going to be on an earner and have paid for the publicity, soma and bearishbull yu've hit the nail on the head!


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## Humpback (22 Mar 2006)

soma said:
			
		

> However when have you *ever* seen the Irish Media, when e.g. interviewing an "economist" with an Estate Agent or a Mortgage Bank, ask them to concede that *they* have a vested interest in talking up the property market..? Double standards indeed.


 
Because as dumb as many people think the Irish public may be, most people will associate property related comments from an estate agent or a mortgage provider as being something to do with their own companys business.

However, comments from an organisation called IAIM (whom most people probably would never have heard of) about anything would probably have had to be qualified.

The touchiness of the coverage of foreign property purchasing from those new posters on this site who advocate such a practice si most amusing to me.

Just a question to those people. Would you welcome such regulation of such an activity as suggested by the IAIM? (Leaving aside the how's and the wherefore's as these can always be looked at later).

Regulation of Irish people taking their money out of the country to purchase foreign property? Yes or No?


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## bearishbull (22 Mar 2006)

ronan_d_john said:
			
		

> Because as dumb as many people think the Irish public may be, most people will associate property related comments from an estate agent or a mortgage provider as being something to do with their own companys business.
> 
> However, comments from an organisation called IAIM (whom most people probably would never have heard of) about anything would probably have had to be qualified.
> 
> ...


regulation of advertisements and the agencies selling in irish market yes,obviously no one wants to stop free movement of an individauls capital.


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## dam099 (22 Mar 2006)

bearishbull said:
			
		

> regulation of advertisements and the agencies selling in irish market yes,obviously no one wants to stop free movement of an individauls capital.


 
Agreed, as there is no reliable way to distinguish money leaving for foreign property purchases this could not be done other than by re-introducing some form of exchange controls which is probably not possible even if we wanted now we are in the Euro.


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## almo (23 Mar 2006)

While it's probably not possible as stated in the above post to put restrictions of money out of the country for foreign purchases, some responsibility on behalf of the agencies/companies selling in Ireland would be a massive start.  Very very few of the companies selling in Ireland (from Turkey to USA to Croatia) have actual offices on the ground in their destinations and fewer still have more than limited actual knowledge of the markets in which they are selling.  Many of the places on offer have zero (if any) regulation on property agent operations and this is a huge danger.  I've seen it happen 1st hand where non-nationals were in the process of buying here and all of a sudden the "agent" no longer returns calls or emails and their deposit (best case) or property (worst) is simply paper in the wind.


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## SLAPPY (25 Mar 2006)

Irish set to spend 80 billion on foreign property in 2006.   Do you think anyone actually visited Panama and Montenegro to view their investment?  What difference does it make,  property only goes up, up and up.   They should be snatching rental properyt in Iraq,  I hear it's dirt cheap there.  

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1588590&issue_id=13859


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## almo (26 Mar 2006)

Montenegro is a seriously worrying place to buy yet it is still marketed as THE place to buy, in 2 months time the public there go to the polls and over a 1/4 of the electorate will refuse to turn out, why?  Because the country wishes to exit the Serbia-Montenegro mess and go it's own way, but almost 30% of the country is......ethnic-Serb.  Now just a few years back it was the same situation in Croatia and Bosnia, and war erupted.  It might not be the same again, but that region is bubbling with discontent and very volatile.  So why don't journo's, like the one who wrote the article yesterday, do their homework instead of plugging what they're paid for, then again, I guess it's only the Indo, how more tabloid can you get?


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