# What about men?



## Vanilla (1 Feb 2018)

A very well written article, worth a read, if, like me, sometimes you just despair:

https://victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/


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## Purple (1 Feb 2018)

Very interesting and well written, as well as being a valid perspective.
I do think the issue is more nuanced than the author presents. It is beyond question that women face more challenges than men in our society generally. I think some of the push-back is the perception that the overwhelming majority about gender issues is focused on the challenges faced by women and that focus is disproportionate to the levels of discrimination etc they face. The reason for that may be the fact that women are better organised due to the terrible sexism and disadvantage they faced until relatively recently, or it could be a combination of factors. It could also just be misogynistic men who think women should "know their place". In reality it's more complex than the author suggests though her frustration is understandable; she is perfectly entitled to talk about women and girls, just as someone else is perfectly entitled to talk about men and boys.


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## Vanilla (1 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> I think some of the push-back is the perception that the overwhelming majority about gender issues is focused on the challenges faced by women and that focus is disproportionate to the levels of discrimination etc they face.



Is that so. Because I was wondering why we would write an article concentrating on abuse of/discrimination against/sexism etc focused on women at all, after all, won't someone please think of the men, or some other group which have been discriminated against.

Thank goodness you were able to point out it is more complex.


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## dub_nerd (1 Feb 2018)

Interesting indeed, and well written. It did raise an  eyebrow for me when she suggested that male suicide is a symptom of patriarchy. I didn't understand what she was getting at. But that aside, and to her main point, maybe some people just like to complain. There are an awful lot of complainers out there in this internet age of armchair keyboard warriors. Also interesting that a significant minority of her complainants were women. As further evidence that it's not just a man or woman thing, Cassie Jay (look her up on youtube) has the opposite experience with her documentary "The Red Pill". She was continually harangued for ignoring women in a documentary about men's issues, to the extent of people trying to get it banned in some countries.


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## Purple (1 Feb 2018)

Vanilla said:


> Is that so. Because I was wondering why we would write an article concentrating on abuse of/discrimination against/sexism etc focused on women at all, after all, won't someone please think of the men, or some other group which have been discriminated against.
> 
> Thank goodness you were able to point out it is more complex.


I don't get your point.
The author correctly points out that it is reasonable to write about abuses and discrimination faced by women alone and that getting abuse for not talking about men at the same time is unreasonable. I am simply questioning her simplistic presentation of the reasons for that abuse.


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## Sunny (1 Feb 2018)

Reminds me of Tommy Gorman asking Roy Keane 'What about the kids?' during Saipan.......

Is this really a thing? Would any man here look at a breast cancer campaign and think 'Men get cancer too'....Or read a story from a female rape/sexual abuse victim and think men get abused too......

Is she talking about men in real life that she has come across or just people on twitter/facebook etc who comment on these things and who aren't exactly representative of the vast majority of human beings......


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## Purple (1 Feb 2018)

Sunny said:


> Is this really a thing? Would any man here look at a breast cancer campaign and think 'Men get cancer too'....Or read a story from a female rape/sexual abuse victim and think men get abused too......
> 
> Is she talking about men in real life that she has come across or just people on twitter/facebook etc who comment on these things and who aren't exactly representative of the vast majority of human beings......


There mightn't be any here but yes, there are plenty of men who see a campaign to highlight an issue facing women and their first port of call is to look for a reason why it is really an attack on men. There are women who do the same thing when issues facing men are highlighted.
There are occasions when it is legitimate to highlight that some issues are common to men and women but, for example, when domestic violence against women is highlighted, men shouldn't crib about the lack of support for male victims they should do something about it. On that issue the recent campaigns on TV and billboards has shown both men and women as victims. That shows that there isn't some grand feminist conspiracy against men. 
Sometimes men don't help themselves with the issues they highlight (violence doesn't have a colour, an ethnicity, or a religion but overwhelmingly it does have a gender) but then again either do women, the recent campaign about the gender pay gap being a good example as there is no factual evidence to support such a notion.


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## Firefly (1 Feb 2018)

dub_nerd said:


> There are an awful lot of _complainers_ out there in this internet age of armchair keyboard warriors.



There are a few in here too


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## Betsy Og (1 Feb 2018)

One by-product of all the good work (me too movement etc), is that men, as a species, are facing a relentless wall of negativity through the media. When Matt Damon said, basically, y'know there's lots of good guys too, he was nearly lynched for it. Do we want all young males to see themselves as 'predators in waiting'?, does it benefit anyone that all this tarring with the same brush is happening? I'd say in Ireland the ongoing high profile rape case should, in due course, give a very good airing to the issue of consent, which will be a benefit to everyone. Just like the #metoo things spells out (were it ever needed) that the casting couch culture is just not on.


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## Purple (1 Feb 2018)

I was talking to a friend of mine about gender issues recently. She said that before she was married both she and her wife were very focused on issues which are faced by the LGBT community. Now that they have a son she said that her views on that constitutes equality have broadened.


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## Purple (1 Feb 2018)

Matt Damon was the subject of vitriol because, during an interview he said "‘I do believe that there’s a spectrum of behavior, right? And we’re going to have to figure — you know, there’s a difference between, you know, patting someone on the butt and rape or child molestation. ‘Both of those behaviors need to be confronted and eradicated without question, but they shouldn’t be conflated, right?"

Sounds like a reasonable thing to say? Well no, it wasn't. He was roundly attacked former co-star Mini Driver as well as other actors. As long as we conflate the minor and the major we are running the risk of diminishing and devaluing the major. It is unacceptable for a man to pat a woman on the bum and if he does it in a work setting he should lose his job but it's not a prison offence. But should that be but in the same bracket as rape?


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## Sunny (1 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> Sounds like a reasonable thing to say?  It is unacceptable for a man to pat a woman on the bum and if he does it in a work setting he should lose his job but it's not a prison offence. But should that be but in the same bracket as rape?



Isn't that what Matt Damon was saying???


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## Firefly (1 Feb 2018)

I think somewhat related to this issue is the fear people have of saying anything at all about certain subjects. You simply cannot say what you feel on an ever increasing range of topics publicly, but a lot of people would hold the same or similar beliefs if they were honest with themselves. These things fester away and when there is an election, many are surprised with the outcome. I think in a lot of cases, there is just too much PC nonsense in the world. For this reason,  I like the frankness of the likes of Michael O'Leary and the GP who is on the Last Word on Wednesdays (whose accent sounds exactly like Michael O'Leary's!).


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## Betsy Og (1 Feb 2018)

Can't say I see a whole lot wrong with that Matt Damon quote.


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## Vanilla (1 Feb 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> One by-product of all the good work (me too movement etc), is that men, as a species, are facing a relentless wall of negativity through the media. When Matt Damon said, basically, y'know there's lots of good guys too, he was nearly lynched for it.



I actually do despair, whataboutery in practice.

Why do you need that validation? There are a lot of good guys who don't sexually harass women- well, I shouldn't have to tell you- that is what it should be, that is the norm, you don't need praise or validation for that. Why do you even need to say that? But you expect that praise, you expect every outcry of condemnation to be prefaced by- but not all guys are like that!

Ok, so, at the risk of great irony, what about the men?

There has been an increase in gang related crime- but not all men are involved in gangs, or in crime- aren't they great.

There has been an increase in domestic violence- but not all of it ( even if it is  the majority) is perpetrated by men. A significant minority of domestic violence is perpetrated by women. And not all men even attack their wives, aren't they great.

Men are great, men are great, men are great. There, is that enough, or should we talk more about men?


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## Vanilla (1 Feb 2018)

Sunny said:


> Reminds me of Tommy Gorman asking Roy Keane 'What about the kids?' during Saipan.......
> 
> Is this really a thing? Would any man here look at a breast cancer campaign and think 'Men get cancer too'....Or read a story from a female rape/sexual abuse victim and think men get abused too......
> 
> Is she talking about men in real life that she has come across or just people on twitter/facebook etc who comment on these things and who aren't exactly representative of the vast majority of human beings......


Sunny, did you read the entire post? Because she clearly spells out the amount of comments she receives from men/women on varying issues.


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## odyssey06 (1 Feb 2018)

Vanilla said:


> Because why do you need that validation? There are a lot of good guys who don't sexually harass women- well, I shouldn/t haveto tell you, that is what it should be, that is the norm, you don't need praise or validation for that. Why do you even need to say that? But you expect that praise, you expect every outcry of condemnation to be prefaced by- but not all guys are like that!



It's not about validation... it's about men standing up and showing that there are ways to be men that doesn't involve acting in despicable ways, whether that's in gangs, or to women.  That, in the specific case of Matt Damon, that there are ways of being a successful man in Hollywood other than the methods of a Harvey Weinstein. Maybe it shouldn't have to be said, but there's no harm and I find it very strange it would engender hostility and criticism... 

For me, it's a bit like, say, reclaiming the tricolour from Sinn Fein.

In your gang analogy, it would be like successful businessmen and sportsmen from the communities that have gangs standing up and showing you can make it in this world, there is another path than gangs to belong and to succeed.


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## Vanilla (1 Feb 2018)

No, it's not at all about that. It's actually about not being about men.


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## odyssey06 (1 Feb 2018)

Going back to the original article, I agree with some of the points made, where the author accepts that it is reasonable to talk about men sometimes and women sometimes.
But on the other hand, it is also reasonable to take a step back and ask "what about men", if there are a lot more specialists in studies of the female gender, than studies of the male gender... if there's a lot more research in the former than the latter.
Is that a fair question to ask someone who specialised in one gender than the other? As an individual and in relation to her specific work, perhaps no, but as a member of that academic community, yes.

If you read a history book of the American Civil War 50 years ago, it would have been legitimate to ask "what about the black experience"? Where are the books about that?


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## odyssey06 (1 Feb 2018)

Vanilla said:


> No, it's not at all about that. It's actually about not being about men.



It should be about men and women. If there are predators - in Hollywood, in business, on the streets - while women may be the victims, "good" men and women have a duty as witnesses and defenders and if those good people act in concert then we have a better chance of catching those predators, and creating environments in which they are shut out and shut down.


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## Vanilla (1 Feb 2018)

This is exactly the point, that no, it should not be about men and women. Here is a direct quote from her post:

"I launched a study last year, exploring the many different forms of victim blaming women and girls can experience. Over 700 people responded. My other recent studies have included interviewing women who have been blamed for rape and abuse, interviewing therapists and support workers who work with women who blame themselves for being abused or attacked and a complex study in which I developed and validated a new psychometric measure of victim blaming of women. 
I honestly cannot express how much whataboutery I get. "

In this instance, her study was about '*exploring the many different forms of victim blaming women and girls can experience*'. This study was not about men at all. But why do so many men want to make it about them?


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## Sunny (1 Feb 2018)

Vanilla said:


> This is exactly the point, that no, it should not be about men and women. Here is a direct quote from her post:
> 
> "I launched a study last year, exploring the many different forms of victim blaming women and girls can experience. Over 700 people responded. My other recent studies have included interviewing women who have been blamed for rape and abuse, interviewing therapists and support workers who work with women who blame themselves for being abused or attacked and a complex study in which I developed and validated a new psychometric measure of victim blaming of women.
> I honestly cannot express how much whataboutery I get. "
> ...



I must be thick because I still don’t get it. Is she saying that she got all that whataboutery from men she knew, colleagues, male friends, family. Or did she get it from people posting on the internet using fake names??? I don’t get it because as a man, I would never think like that. And I don’t expect validation or anything of the sort. And someone asking why do men as a specie need constant validation is as sexist as men asking women why they need constant reassurance about things. This is gone ridiculous.


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## odyssey06 (1 Feb 2018)

Vanilla said:


> This is exactly the point, that no, it should not be about men and women. Here is a direct quote from her post:
> 
> "I launched a study last year, exploring the many different forms of victim blaming women and girls can experience. Over 700 people responded. My other recent studies have included interviewing women who have been blamed for rape and abuse, interviewing therapists and support workers who work with women who blame themselves for being abused or attacked and a complex study in which I developed and validated a new psychometric measure of victim blaming of women.
> I honestly cannot express how much whataboutery I get. "
> ...



Can the same experience not occur to men and boys? Why can't we make it about human beings? Why is she excluding their experiences?
This isn't a medical professional who specialises in gynaecology which obviously is gender specific.
Maybe the men asking the questions feel they were victim blamed and that no one is interested in their experiences.

Or, from a different angle, surely one of the most powerful comparitive tools for evaluating any psychometric measure of victim blaming would be the different experiences of men, woman, boys, girls across cultures?

That's not to say it's unreasonable for someone to do a study like this, but it is reasonable to ask, if there is a pattern of these kind of studies that are just about one gender, then yes, what about the other? And that can work both ways - if someone is just writing about men, where is the balance, either in their work, or in the work of their faculty.

Maybe she should take a step back and ask herself why is she being asked this question? Is the vast majority of her published work about one gender and haven't male academics in the past been criticised for precisely such an imbalance?

I'll put the question another way that isn't a "what about men". Does she think that there is as much focus on men as women in gender studies and specialisations of this sort? Does she think it is balanced, and if it not, does she think that's an issue?


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## Sunny (1 Feb 2018)

Vanilla said:


> I actually do despair, whataboutery in practice.
> 
> Why do you need that validation? There are a lot of good guys who don't sexually harass women- well, I shouldn't have to tell you- that is what it should be, that is the norm, you don't need praise or validation for that. Why do you even need to say that? But you expect that praise, you expect every outcry of condemnation to be prefaced by- but not all guys are like that!
> 
> ...



Again, what men do you know that discuss a specific rape or sexual harassment case saying how horrible it is but then add, ‘but we are not all like that’.... seriously how many times have you heard that?


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## odyssey06 (1 Feb 2018)

Sunny said:


> Again, what men do you know that discuss a specific rape or sexual harassment case saying how horrible it is but then add, ‘but we are not all like that’.... seriously how many times have you heard that?



Actually the usual thing to say is "they should string the <bleep> up" or "they should cut the guys <bleep> off". I'm sure many a cop has used the line, "we're going to get the <bleep> who did this." It's implicit by using that phrase... what you are really trying to convey is... we're not all like that.


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## odyssey06 (1 Feb 2018)

Matt should have come to me for his speech that day. "What I want to say is, these sort of actions have no place in Hollywood. I say this to other men in Hollywood, we have a duty here and now to declare that these sort of predators have no place in our industry - or we all risk our reputations being tarnished. We must show by our actions that they are the a minority, that we are the 99% and that men and women together can make this a safe environment to work without fear. Transgressors must be punished, but the punishment must fit the crime..." And then segue into his "spectrum" bit.

Ok, so maybe I've seen too many West Wing episodes but yeah, reading it again, the "credit" line seems a bit crass. He should have gone down the "proud to be a man in Hollywood" angle...


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## odyssey06 (1 Feb 2018)

ps Matt was also remiss in not mentioning that men can be victims too... if we believe Anthony Rapp's allegations against Kevin Spacey.


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## Sunny (1 Feb 2018)

There is a big problem with all the current media but apparently we are not allowed to say it because we are men. Take the #me to campaign. Brilliant. Fully admire all those people now standing up against disgusting and abhorant behavior within an industry. But the fact remains that rose mc Gowan took 100,000 hush money and appeared smiling in photos with Harvey years later.  Harvey came to light because ONE woman stood up. ONE woman said enough was enough. Where were all the other women? Why wasn’t this shouted from the rooftops? And blaming men for the deafening silence is just ridiculous. I recently told a group of men and women that my wife would be working full time while I took parental leave while my kids were young. The reaction of the women compared to the men was striking. ‘It’s your job to provide for your family’ was thrown out by three of the women. Only one woman defended my choice. You want sexism???? Look at how society looks at parenting.....


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## dub_nerd (2 Feb 2018)

A couple of posters here need to read the comments on the OP's article and realise that the author got the same comments from men _and_ women. She said the split was maybe 60-40.

Also, whatever her anecdotal experience, this is not a women's-issues-only thing. Cassie Jay had the same sort of whataboutery from women and men when making a documentary about men's issues.

And Matt Damon got shtick not just for saying there were gradations of harrassment, but for speaking at all on the issue. (I could point you at Guardian articles requesting him to shut up because all discussion on the topic should be the exclusive domain of women).


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## Betsy Og (2 Feb 2018)

Vanilla said:


> I actually do despair, whataboutery in practice.



Whataboutery is classicly justification due to other wrongs, in particular wrongs on the other side prior to that wrong - a staple in the argument over who was to blame for the troubles - a kind of a weighing scales approach. 

I don't argue the merit of what you said, respect for women and all that. But sure whats there to talk about in that?  Its like lets discuss the merits of motherhood and apple pie, world peace, an end to hunger and other such topics where you'll go a long road to find anything worth talking about.

I posed another perspective on the impact of the current debate, maybe one not so obvious, and you think I'm looking for a pat on the head??!! Must we wave our torches and pitchforks with intense vigour lest we be accused of not being fully on board the hysteria train? Does using the word "hysteria" belie my misogny?, no, its just having being in the workforce for about 20 years I have never seen or heard of anyone getting "touched up" or anything like it. Hollywood is an extreme environment where a few scumbags ran amock, I really don't know what everyone else is getting into such a lather about?

So forgive me if I'm concerned more about the plague of suicide in our own land, predominantly among young men, while the hysteria pushes the message that men are just the lowest form..... than the actions of the very few in a place 5,000 miles away that has no direct relevance to anyone reading this forum. But I'll be doubly sure not to pat anyone on the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language as I pass the photocopier tomorrow


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## Vanilla (2 Feb 2018)

Here's another direct quote especially for you, Betsy Og, since you neatly encapsulate everything the author is saying:

_'Second perfect example: Male suicide rates. 

We know that the leading cause of death in young men aged 18-35 is suicide. This is the strongest symptom of a patriarchal society where emotionless males struggle to cope with trauma and feelings, can’t open up, don’t feel safe to talk and become completely overwhelmed by emotions they are taught are ‘feminine’, which further induces shame and stigma. 
In all my years I have never seen women jump on those campaigns yelling ‘women commit suicide too, you know!!’ Or ‘what about women?’ 

Switch it over. Women’s marches. Pussy hats. IWD. Counting dead women. VAWG strategies. Women’s health screening. Women’s reproductive health. Women’s mental health. Rape campaigns. #metoo. 

There is ALWAYS someone saying ‘what about men though?’ under all of those issues. It’s as sure as taxes and death. '_


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## Betsy Og (2 Feb 2018)

The author is saying she gets spurious complaints that her work focuses solely on women, wow, newsflash, theres eejits in the world. I personally don't begrudge breast cancer campaigns etc. So I dont think this author is the amazing visionary you've latched onto.

If you don't want to discuss anything more interesting then grand, I'll let you have a clear run at the echo chamber.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

Vanilla said:


> We know that the leading cause of death in young men aged 18-35 is suicide. This is the strongest symptom of a patriarchal society where emotionless males struggle to cope with trauma and feelings, can’t open up, don’t feel safe to talk and become completely overwhelmed by emotions they are taught are ‘feminine’, which further induces shame and stigma.


Can she back that up or is it just her opinion that the "patriarchal society" is to blame for suicide rates among young men? Does she understand irony when she says that in the same article as she talks about victim blaming?


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## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

Sunny said:


> You want sexism???? Look at how society looks at parenting.....


As a single parent I agree.
The way in which domestic violence is treated is also striking. A friend of mine was attached by his partner. She's much smaller than him but still attacked him, managing to dig her nails into his neck so badly that he needed stitches. He went to the Gardai, still covered in blood (the bleeding was so bad his shirt was drenched and his jeans were also soaked) his with facial scratches and his clothes torn.
The response he got was "Sure you're a big lad, you can defend yourself and why don't you just leave her?"


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## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

One more thing;
It is fairly common to see Universities offer courses in Woman's studies. How many offer courses in Men's studies? Why is asking that question so threatening to some women?


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2018)

I think Whataboutery is always going to happen in situations like this. When you have articles/campaigns or whatever regarding the rape/attack conducted by a small minority of half of the population, I think it's inevitable that some from the majority of this half of the population are going to say "we're not all like that" and "it happens the other way round too".


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## Betsy Og (2 Feb 2018)

I think the context of my frustration is the media message which is generally;

Women - wholesome mothers, smiling carers, glamourous socialites

Men - domestically useless, socially awkward, drink drivers, 'bates the wife'.

How many times do we have to wince as the babysitter listens, over the baby monitor, to yer man beating the wife, are we to believe this has no impact on the broad population of men? When is the last time a woman was portrayed as doing something disgraceful in an ad campaign that you'll watch over and over? I don't want women equally blackened, I want less general blackening of men.

Maybe my perception is off, but that's what advertisers are using. So much so that one sacharine exception has warmed my heart (guilty pleasure moment), its the one where the new fella spends loads of time with his partners child, and the little boys ends up calling him Daddy, ahhhs all round. Sure at least it was a positive message for once......


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## Delboy (2 Feb 2018)

I'll just throw Peppa Pig in at this stage!


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## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

I can say that when I was married I did 90% of the cooking and cleaning, all of the washing and ironing and put the kids to bed most nights. When they were babies I did all of the night feeds but didn't get any paternity leave.
I bake with the kids. I do arts and crafts. I sew on buttons and fix hems of skirts and trousers. When they were small I blow dried  my daughters hair. I also do the DIY (at the moment I'm dry-lining and plastering a wall). I'm the one who talks to my older daughter about how her makeup looks etc. I'm the one who taught them to cook. All of my male friends can cook. All of them are hands-on dads. None of us feel our masculinity is threatened by any of that sort of thing.
My father can cook and do housework (though he's bugger all use at DIY). His father was a tailor so he can sew etc too.
Why is it okay to continue to perpetuate an outdated and negative stereotype of men in the media and particularly in advertising? Why is the father an idiot in just about every set-com and other TV show aimed at kids? Why is questioning these things dismissed as "whataboutism"? Why can the suicide rate among young men and teenage boys be unquestioningly linked to some sort of "Patriarchy" and not to any of the other factors raised above?


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## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

Delboy said:


> I'll just throw Peppa Pig in at this stage!


Daddy Pig is filing for divorce


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## michaelm (2 Feb 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> Just like the #metoo things spells out (were it ever needed) that the casting couch culture is just not on.


While I wouldn't be the biggest fan of Germaine Greer I thought this #metoo related article was interesting https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement


Betsy Og said:


> So much so that one sacharine exception has warmed my heart (guilty pleasure moment), its the one where the new fella spends loads of time with his partners child, and the little boys ends up calling him Daddy, ahhhs all round. Sure at least it was a positive message for once......


I hate that ad, although I hate (and mute) pretty much all ads (except drum playing gorillas).


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## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

The misuse of statistics in this debate generally is annoying.
The gender pay gap issue is a good example but so is the assertion by some men's groups that spending on Breast Cancer far outstrips the spend on Prostate Cancer. While that is true and while more men die of Prostate Cancer than women die of Breast Cancer the big difference is the age profile of those who die; breast cancer kills women of all ages whereas the vast majority of men who die from prostate cancer are over the age of 85. Therefore it is reasonable to spend much more on awareness and research relating to breast cancer. 
So, all the facts are required before anybody starts throwing statistics around.


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## odyssey06 (2 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> So, all the facts are required before anybody starts throwing statistics around.



A football manager once said that ... "Statistics are like miniskirts: they give you good ideas but hide the important things."

He'd probably get in trouble for saying it in these times though.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

michaelm said:


> While I wouldn't be the biggest fan of Germaine Greer I thought this #metoo related article was interesting https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movement



I agree with some of that but the line that stood out was "Greer also spoke of her regret that the movement was failing to address the abuse of minority women in ordinary jobs". 
If you really want to see powerless women who are in very vulnerable positions then look at the waitresses who effectively work for tips in restaurants in most States in the USA. They get groped by customers but can't say anything because they won't get a tip and tips make up most of their income. They are casual employees with little protection so they are at the mercy of their employers are well. "Metoo" would be better directed at seeking to protect hundreds of thousands of women and minorities who have to keep quiet to keep a roof over their head rather than a tiny minority who are already relatively rich and powerful.


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## odyssey06 (2 Feb 2018)

michaelm said:


> While I wouldn't be the biggest fan of Germaine Greer I thought this #metoo related article was interesting https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/23/germaine-greer-criticises-whingeing-metoo-movementI hate that ad, although I hate (and mute) pretty much all ads (except drum playing gorillas).



I wouldn't say I am a fan of Germaine Greer, in that I don't agree with a lot of what she says. But I react to what she says, she makes a point, her position is clear, she doesn't sit on the fence and it's up to you to agree or disagree, accept or reject what she has said. She can dish out verbal volleys and doesn't turn into a snowflake when verbal volleys are hurled at her. I guess that means respect?

Modern ads... it's got to the stage where I'm starting to hate the people who make ads, they are now a source of misery, or at least 99%.
And they wonder where everybody who can skips through them with their remote.
The only ones that are tolerable are short, snappy and to the point, rather than these indirect mini-movies that could be for anything.


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## michaelm (2 Feb 2018)

That's my view of Greer in a nutshell.





odyssey06 said:


> indirect mini-movies that could be for anything.


This exemplifies that perfectly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YBtspm8j8M


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## Betsy Og (2 Feb 2018)

Great youtube video.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

Sunny said:


> Take the #me to campaign. Brilliant. Fully admire all those people now standing up against disgusting and abhorant behavior within an industry. But the fact remains that rose mc Gowan took 100,000 hush money and appeared smiling in photos with Harvey years later. Harvey came to light because ONE woman stood up. ONE woman said enough was enough. Where were all the other women? Why wasn’t this shouted from the rooftops? And blaming men for the deafening silence is just ridiculous


I did wonder why none of the powerful Hollywood A-list female actors who command tens of millions per movie stayed silent, thereby condemning the next generation of young female actors to the same disgusting and criminal behaviour.


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## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> I wouldn't say I am a fan of Germaine Greer, in that I don't agree with a lot of what she says. But I react to what she says, she makes a point, her position is clear, she doesn't sit on the fence and it's up to you to agree or disagree, accept or reject what she has said. She can dish out verbal volleys and doesn't turn into a snowflake when verbal volleys are hurled at her. I guess that means respect?


Agreed. I like her though i don't always agree with her.


----------



## joe sod (2 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> I agree with some of that but the line that stood out was "Greer also spoke of her regret that the movement was failing to address the abuse of minority women in ordinary jobs".
> If you really want to see powerless women who are in very vulnerable positions then look at the waitresses who effectively work for tips in restaurants in most States in the USA.



What about the unseen men that work in anti social jobs at night , laying tar on roads at night to reduce traffic disruption, with high vis jackets but nobody ever thinks about them or looks at them. The guys up to their knees in mud in this awful weather doing the groundworks for house building, nobody gives them a second thought.


----------



## Purple (2 Feb 2018)

joe sod said:


> What about the unseen men that work in anti social jobs at night , laying tar on roads at night to reduce traffic disruption, with high vis jackets but nobody ever thinks about them or looks at them. The guys up to their knees in mud in this awful weather doing the groundworks for house building, nobody gives them a second thought.


They are getting paid by the hour and generally have better terms and conditions. They certainly aren’t being sexually harassed by their employer or customers.


----------



## joe sod (3 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> They are getting paid by the hour and generally have better terms and conditions. They certainly aren’t being sexually harassed by their employer or customers.



Better terms and conditions !!, have you ever worked on a building site in winter, guys covered in mud, despite all the equipment there is still a lot of dirty unpleasant work, also you have foreman pushing the guys to get the job done under pressure from the financiers. When your toilet is blocked a someone has to fix that but nobody ever thinks about these guys, that's the point.


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## odyssey06 (3 Feb 2018)

To followon from joe sod's point ... that if we have a male patriarchy it doesnt extend down to the lads with the dirty and dangerous lowpaid jobs.

ps I dont think we have one, I think we have an elite. And there are women in that elite.


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## Purple (5 Feb 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> I think we have an elite. And there are women in that elite.


I agree.


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## Purple (12 Feb 2018)

It's very hard to find an equivalent case to this one where a woman inflicted that sort of damage to a man. It's also incredible to believe that he only got 4 years in prison. 
No "whataboutism" about this and it is far from an isolated case.


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## odyssey06 (12 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> It's very hard to find an equivalent case to this one where a woman inflicted that sort of damage to a man. It's also incredible to believe that he only got 4 years in prison.
> No "whataboutism" about this and it is far from an isolated case.



Is the article just written badly... it's not clear to me what sentence was for what offence.
"In March 2017, he was sentenced to four years — with two suspended —  for *threatening to kill another *ex girlfriend and her partner in 2013. "
What was the sentence for the actual assault?
Actually, the sentence for the assault is in a photo byline... "three and a half years with 12 months suspended for assaulting her..."

I'm not trying to go down the whataboutism route, just that in general the sentences handed out by the courts for assault are pathetic. I think this more reflects that than any gender bias.
The relevant comparison is if a man convicted of similar assault of another man of youth would get a different sentence.

I think that the fact that it wasn't a once off incident and a protection order was violated should have led to a longer sentence too i.e. there should have been multiple convictions, and they should have run consecutively. But the courts don't seem to think that way.

It's the same if a member of the emergency services is assaulted and you hear their unions saying they want new laws just for them... well if a citizen, regardless of uniform, is assaulted and they think the law isn't strong enough then they should call for protection for all citizens.

Ps I wonder if a US style plea bargain of copping a guilty plea to common assault v trial for higher charge could be a factor also.


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## Purple (13 Feb 2018)

odyssey06, In my opinion when the assailant is a partner or former partner the sentence should be increased.


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## Vanessa (19 Feb 2018)

If the feminists think they are getting a raw deal perhaps they should look at a few of their feminist colleagues. I am aware of many situations where au pairs, cleaners, housekeepers are being exploited by professional women who expect them to work long hours for less than minimum wage, treat them like dirt and then go off to their own workplace and whinge about howmentreat women


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## Purple (21 Feb 2018)

Is every man a potential rapist?
Well according to this author yes, they are.
Why is this sort of bigotry, masquerading as pseudo-science, still acceptable?
It's not that long ago the same sort of thing was being written about black people.


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## Purple (25 Apr 2018)

Interesting perspective about abuse of men, written by a woman, here. 

The problem is that, very understandably, while [broken link removed] that sort of abuse of men can and does go under the radar.


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## Purple (17 May 2018)

I thought this, from 16 year old Joshua Walsh, in the Irish Times, was fantastic;

“Manliness”– the characteristics of being a man

Since when do we live our lives based on a definition

Everything’s also based on our reputation

To be a shoulder to cry on yet we have no shoulders to cry on

Our shoulders carry the weight of a family, both emotionally and financially

While we hide our feelings so casually

Behind a false personality

Of objectifying women

To impress our fellow men

While being told by these men to man up instead of open up

This leads to many giving up

As 70 per cent of suicide victims

Are men

Let that sink in

A man at the edge of his life being told to man up

And not to fess up

That he’s not okay

He’s not alright

That he needs help

Help that would be on offer to a woman before the first tear

While many people steer clear

Of an emotional man looking for affection

To be told it’s alright, I’m here for you

It would mean the world to a man

Yet to the world it would mean

He’s not a man


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## Betsy Og (18 May 2018)

Wow, that's excellent. To nitpick I'd say Mams probably bear the emotional weight of a family more, re financially one might be accused of adhering to stereotypes - but I guess I just have re Mams and emotions.....

One very sage young fella there!! Bravo


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## Purple (21 May 2018)

Betsy Og said:


> To nitpick I'd say Mams probably bear the emotional weight of a family more, re financially one might be accused of adhering to stereotypes - but I guess I just have re Mams and emotions.....


Yep, and when a man bears the emotional weight of a family more he's a softie. When a woman bears the financial weight of the family more the man is not being a real man. Either way when a man doesn't conform to the stereotype, when he veers into what is traditionally female territory, it is seen as weakness.


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## Purple (8 Mar 2019)

It is International women's day today.
Does Patricia Casey?
_"International Women's Day is ultimately an excuse for virtue signalling, as every 'woke' celebrity and social commentator steps out to decry misogyny, gender bias, and the rape culture on campuses, while demanding trigger warnings, safe spaces, and insisting on deplatforming those whose opinions they do not agree with.

Of course, some will also and rightly call out female genital mutilation, domestic violence, homelessness and poverty.

But these social problems and many others also assail men and to appropriate them as female only is both incorrect and narrow. It also locates women as victims in the overall social landscape."
_
Personally I think she does but she seriously over-eggs things and, while rightly points out that many "women's issues" are also faced by men, she doesn't mention that they usually disproportionately affect women. 
The line "men worry about women laughing at them, women worry about men killing them" springs to mind and while it also massively overstates things there is some truth in it.


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## odyssey06 (8 Mar 2019)

I'm a man, so there's an element of theorising here, but a lot of International Women's Day is very patronising to women.
And I think bundling something like FGM under the same umbrella as issues like gender pay gap (if there even is one), does a disservice to it. 

So International Women's Day... I'm against it and agree with Patricia Casey.


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## Sunny (8 Mar 2019)

I think it is ridiculous. I have worked for a couple of large financial institutions and the money and effort that is spent trying to convince people that they value women and the gender bias doesn't exist beggers belief. Even today, the lobby is lit up in purple lighting. Its tokenism. If companies want to get rid of the gender bias, then actions speak louder than words. Bank Of New York Mellon recently announced that they were banning people from working home unless it was for exceptional circumstances. They had to back down when it was pointed out that this would dissaportionately affect women in the workplace. Again, I bet there was announcements every week in that company telling people how serious they took the issue of women in the workplace prior to that.

I think these things are patronising. Its like the Pride Day stuff as well. But then again, I am a man who cares what I think!


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Mar 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> I'm a man...





Sunny said:


> But then again, I am a man...


I 'fess that the duke is also a man.  Methinks AAM is dominated by the male of the species.  I think the _Boss_ needs a root and branch review to flush out this gender bias, if necessary by affirmative action like banning the likes of myself, _Sunny_ and _odyssey_.


----------



## Purple (8 Mar 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> I'm a man, so there's an element of theorising here, but a lot of International Women's Day is very patronising to women.
> And I think bundling something like FGM under the same umbrella as issues like gender pay gap (if there even is one), does a disservice to it.
> 
> So International Women's Day... I'm against it and agree with Patricia Casey.


I'm not against it; there are real and massive issues facing women. Those women just aren't in Ireland or even in most of the developed world. FGM, forces marriage, rape culture (the real ones, like what's happening in South Africa and India and elsewhere), property rights, equality under the law etc. even the right to have a birth cert and death cert, let alone vote. These are the issues facing women in much of the world.

Not liking the fact that men generally tend to work longer and generally focus more than women do on work rather than family and calling those choices biases and inequality is, in the context of the real inequalities women face around the world, appalling.
It reminds me of the lunchtime protest by Google employees about general gap equality there which completely ignored the fact that half of the people working in Google are contractors on vastly inferior wages who are treated disgracefully.

So, International Women's Day is fine but why not shine a light on the real issues faced by women.


----------



## Purple (8 Mar 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I think the _Boss_ needs a root and branch review to flush out this gender bias, if necessary by affirmative action like banning the likes of myself, _Sunny_ and _odyssey_.


I agree. My Metrosexual credentials (I cook, bake, have fixed my daughters makeup and have recently had to learn how to use a sewing machine because my youngest daughter got one last Christmas) means I can comment unfettered by any restrictions imposed by the Patriarchy.


----------



## Futurelookin (8 Mar 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> I think bundling something like FGM under the same umbrella as issues like gender pay gap (if there even is one), does a disservice to it.



They both come from the same place - the notion that women / girls are:
A)"Other" &
B) Less

Change has to be structural. International Womens' Day is a platform to highlight issues affecting women whether great or small. 
International Mens' Day *(19th November) serves as the same.

That people you don't rate or you don't agree with post nonsense on the subject doesn't mean the day / platform is any less useful. It just makes it another day at the office - the world is full of idiots. Especially on social media.


----------



## Duke of Marmalade (8 Mar 2019)

What came as a real shocker to me was when _Betsy Og_ 'fessed to being in possession of cojones


----------



## Purple (8 Mar 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> What came as a real shocker to me was when _Betsy Og_ 'fessed to being in possession of cojones


But you already knew he was a man, right?


----------



## odyssey06 (8 Mar 2019)

Futurelookin said:


> They both come from the same place - the notion that women / girls are:
> A)"Other" &
> B) Less
> Change has to be structural. International Womens' Day is a platform to highlight issues affecting women whether great or small.
> International Mens' Day *(19th November) serves as the same.



By definition though, with an International X Day, you emphasise the distinction of the "Other".
If you talk to me about an issue, I can agree or disagree or support a particular policy initiative.


----------



## Ceist Beag (8 Mar 2019)

At least it's not International Womxn Day .... yet!


----------



## Sunny (8 Mar 2019)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> What came as a real shocker to me was when _Betsy Og_ 'fessed to being in possession of cojones



To be fair, maybe he (Sorry, they) doesn't/don't anymore.......


----------



## Purple (8 Mar 2019)

Sunny said:


> To be fair, maybe he (Sorry, they) doesn't/don't anymore.......


I thought I was a bit harsh but that... ah jasus...


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## odyssey06 (8 Mar 2019)

New Yorker Cartoon from my day by day calendar for today:






_“No, we’re good. This gentleman accidentally touched my breast and I accidentally broke his nose.”_


----------



## Purple (8 Mar 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> New Yorker Cartoon from my day by day calendar for today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've had my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language felt by women in the past (when I was younger, before I had gone to seed). Would it have been okay for me to break their nose?


----------



## odyssey06 (8 Mar 2019)

Purple said:


> I've had my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language felt by women in the past (when I was younger, before I had gone to seed). Would it have been okay for me to break their nose?



You should really stop keeping your wallet in your back pocket like that. You're encouraging the wrong sort of attention...


----------



## RETIRED2017 (8 Mar 2019)

Purple said:


> I've had my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language felt by women in the past (when I was younger, before I had gone to seed). Would it have been okay for me to break their nose?


Why would you,
Don't you know equal amounts of red and blue makes a Rich Purple,


----------



## Vanilla (8 Mar 2019)

When is international men's day?

For those of you who don't know ( and didn't bother to read the entire thread), it's November 19th.

Amazingly, and at this stage, wearily, twitter, facebook and social media in general is full of the usual whataboutery, but when is international men's day...

Let's see how many of you post about that next november. Quite amazing how many men feel the need to post about the necessity for International Women's day though.


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## odyssey06 (8 Mar 2019)

Vanilla said:


> When is international men's day?
> For those of you who don't know, it's November 19th.
> Let's see how many of you post about that. Quite amazing how many men feel the need to post about the necessity for International Women's day though.



Hmm, that's a Tuesday night in November. Fair chance of a Champion's League game or international qualifier.  
Number of posts about soccer v International makeyuppy Men's Day will be about 1000-1.


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## Sunny (8 Mar 2019)

Vanilla said:


> When is international men's day?
> 
> For those of you who don't know ( and didn't bother to read the entire thread), it's November 19th.
> 
> ...



I will post about it now. Why wait. International men’s day is as pathetic as international woman’s day. Might as well just be created by hallmark. Friends were travelling today with Aer Lingus abd they boarded women first. Wow. That will change your the world. Why not offer more family friendly rosters to your majority female cabin crew? No we will board women first for one day a year. Look at us. It’s pathetic and most women I have talked to agree. It’s not dealing with the issue. Let’s have international homeless day next. That should really make a difference.


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## Purple (9 Mar 2019)

Vanilla said:


> Quite amazing how many men feel the need to post about the necessity for International Women's day though.


Why shouldn’t men post about it?
My point is that there are massive issues facing women around the world but the myopic whining by comfortable middle class women in rich countries who face no institutional or legal discrimination is distasteful, at the very least. 
It’s like someone complaining about missing lunch when outside people are starving.


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## Leper (9 Mar 2019)

Women are good at womens issues. They are well capable operators. Let those issues to them. Men in grass skirts in womens mini marathons, keep away, please. Women can do without you.


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## Thirsty (16 Mar 2019)

"comfortable middle class women in rich countries who face no institutional or legal discrimination"

Really? Even after the Cork rape trial, you still believe this?

Decades of research into gender pay gap and you still believe this?

Documented cases of women fired for being pregnant, and you still believe this?

I suppose we have no racial or religious discrimination either?


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## odyssey06 (16 Mar 2019)

What's the rate of occupational deaths for men versus women in Ireland?
Seems like a far more serious case of discrimination than the alleged gender pay gap which probably doesn't exist for people who joined the work force this century.


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## Thirsty (16 Mar 2019)

Not quite following you. You want more people to die at work?

".. gender pay gap which probably doesn't exist for people who joined the work force this century"

Can you cite the relevant research to support this claim?


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## odyssey06 (16 Mar 2019)

Thirsty said:


> Not quite following you. You want more people to die at work?
> 
> ".. gender pay gap which probably doesn't exist for people who joined the work force this century"
> 
> Can you cite the relevant research to support this claim?



Not quite following you. I'll just remind you that you are the one saying things like "You want more people to die."

If women are being discriminated against so badly, how is it that men are ending up in the most dangerous jobs ? And paying for it with their lives, rather than say,  smaller pay cheques? Seems like workplace discrmination against men is far worse than against women then?


There is no real gender pay gap, except in (a) impact of historical discrimination \ lack of education, and (b) in the different occupations that men and women freely choose to work in.
_One of the biggest studies on gender pay gaps by the US Labour department considered data and 50 peer-reviewed papers and concluded that the pay gap "may almost entirely be the result of individual choices being made by male and female workers"._
https://fee.org/articles/harvard-st...ed-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women/

And...
"Women aged under 40 earn almost as much as their male counterparts."
https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-pay-gap-ireland-statistics-facts-3133536-Dec2016/

It is an offence under Ireland's legislation to discriminate against women in the workplace. Whatever differences in occupations, salaries, job risk encountered by men and women in 21st century Ireland is not as a result of gender discrimination by employers. And any individual breaches of the law by employers is not impacting those statistics, and if you follow WRC findings, is being dealt with by the law.
Look at the number of WRC cases adjudicated in favour of pregnant women!


----------



## Thirsty (16 Mar 2019)

@odyssey06 - you suggested that more men than women die in work related incidents, and that was a serious case of discrimination.

It's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises? You can't really wish for the rate of fatal work related incidents for women to rise to that of men?

I agree that work places need to be as safe as they can possibly be, but I believe you are conflating two different things.

It is indeed an offence to discriminate which is why judgements are frequently made against employers who do so.  Regrettably, it does not prevent the discrimination from happening; and not all women will even bring a case.

Although I'm a little cyncial about their reasons, diversity and equality being very much of the moment, many large corporates have themselves identified a gender pay gap in their organisations and have set targets to reduce it.

Finally to point out that the phrase pay gap does not encompass just rates of pay; look at the pensions issue back in 2017 as an example.

I always wonder why people argue against equality, or insist that discrimation doesn't really exist.

In truth the only reason we have made any progress is this area is thanks to legislation. Such as the right to vote, the removal of the marriage bar, the equal pay act, equality legislation, and even the right to contraception.

Each one of those Acts was fought over (figuratively, not literally!).

In my view change will only be effective when it's backed by legislation.


----------



## odyssey06 (16 Mar 2019)

Thirsty said:


> @odyssey06 - you suggested that more men than women die in work related incidents, and that was a serious case of discrimination.
> 
> It's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises? You can't really wish for the rate of fatal work related incidents for women to rise to that of men?



If you don't think I wish for it, and surely no reasonable genuine person in a debate could, why on earth would you write it?
I have absolutely no idea how anyone could connect up a comment on the differences in fatalities with a wish for the rate of fatal incidents to rise. You are deliberately misunderstanding the arguments.

Do you want men's wages to fall to that of women's? Would that make you happier?


----------



## Thirsty (16 Mar 2019)

Again, it's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises in regards to workplace safety.

I believe you are conflating two different things.


----------



## odyssey06 (16 Mar 2019)

Thirsty said:


> Again, it's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises in regards to workplace safety.
> I believe you are conflating two different things.



Well, if discrimination has nothing to do with workplace safety and there is a difference in the safety statistics between men and women why does discrimination have to be involved with workplace remuneration even if there is a difference in pay between men and women - and it's not clear if there even is a significant difference for those who entered the workplace in the 21st century, as cited above.

We don't have a time machine for those who entered the workforce in the 20th century to turn secretaries, who may have been discriminated against before the setup of institutions such as the WRC, into say highly paid managers. Though I think we should, being cognisant of the legacy debt of such discrmination (not just gender based) ban current employers from seeking details of previous remuneration. 

The minister for social protection in 2017 was Regina Doherty. A woman. I don't think what happened with the pensions reflected some anti-woman agenda it was the kind of unfair treatment people can encounter versus a faceless penny pinching uncaring bureaucracy. 

I echo Purple's comments, women in 2019 Ireland face no institutional or legal discrmination on account of their gender. 
They are positively protected against such discrimination, in fact.


----------



## Purple (18 Mar 2019)

Thirsty said:


> Again, it's unclear where you believe the discrimination arises in regards to workplace safety.
> 
> I believe you are conflating two different things.


It is unclear how the gender pay gap constitutes discrimination rather than choices freely made.
Women under the age of 35 earn more than men. Two thirds of law graduates are women, same in medicine. There are campaigns to get more women into STEM subjects, and rightly so. Where are the campaigns to get more men into medicine and law?
Where are the calls for gender quotas in teaching and nursing? Where is the campaign to make them more male friendly professions?
Maybe free will and free choice must be considered. Maybe equality doesn’t mean we are all the same, just that we are all equal.

If you want to see “discrimination” ask men in small businesses if they feel under pressure not to take paternity leave. It’s hard to legislate for that. I’m sure women find themselves under implied pressure to put work ahead of family too but that’s not discrimination, that’s just work.


The Cork rape trial, is that the one where barrister Elizabeth O'Connell cited the underwear the alleged victim was wearing? It was a disgusting comment to make but how is that discrimination? Disgusting comments are made about women and men all the time.

Of course women are discriminated against but that’s usually because they are poor or vulnerable, not because they are women.


----------



## cremeegg (18 Mar 2019)

Purple said:


> There are campaigns to get more women into STEM subjects, and rightly so.



Awful, heavy handed, nanny knows best, and possibly counterproductive campaigns.

I brought my 12 year old son to the Young Scientist a few years ago. The constant announcements over the PA about how well girls were doing was very intrusive. I wanted to try to interpret this for him, but could not think of a useful way to do so.

My 17 year old daughter says that she will scream the next time she hears that girls can do stem too. She knows that she is one of the 4 or 5 best maths students out of 120 in her year, being told that "girls can too" is demeaning, and answers a question that was never asked.


----------



## Purple (19 Mar 2019)

cremeegg said:


> Awful, heavy handed, nanny knows best, and possibly counterproductive campaigns.
> 
> I brought my 12 year old son to the Young Scientist a few years ago. The constant announcements over the PA about how well girls were doing was very intrusive. I wanted to try to interpret this for him, but could not think of a useful way to do so.
> 
> My 17 year old daughter says that she will scream the next time she hears that girls can do stem too. She knows that she is one of the 4 or 5 best maths students out of 120 in her year, being told that "girls can too" is demeaning, and answers a question that was never asked.


I see nothing wrong with challenging gender stereotypes but, as with a worthy advert by a razor company challenging men on the nature of what masculinity it while telling women they are goddess, it is important to retain a balance in these things. 
I find most adverts both sexist towards men and patronising towards women. It is understandable that women are targeted as they make most purchasing decisions but why should the narrative of an advert be one person being thick and another educating them in a deeply condescending manner? The same goes for your experience at the young scientist exhibition, it must be possible to encourage without patronising one party while denigrating another.


----------



## Betsy Og (21 Mar 2019)

Chrisssht above, what have I missed here.

For the record I have always been in possession of cojones, though Vanilla had a go at removing them on this very thread !!!   They have been disconnected in recent years but I'm not sure that's relevant to this discussion, or maybe I've lost something but havent realised it yet 

For the zillionth time, it was the name of a backpacker car in Australia, about 16 years ago at this stage - ...... if I had my time back........


----------



## michaelm (21 Mar 2019)

odyssey06 said:


> I echo Purple's comments, women in 2019 Ireland face no institutional or legal discrmination on account of their gender.


Yes, but unfortunately we have gone down the rabbit hole that is equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity.  I expect that there will be no escape.


----------



## Purple (22 Mar 2019)

Thirsty said:


> Really? Even after the Cork rape trial, you still believe this?


 I’ve answered that one, but to reiterate; it was a woman who made that comment and she was castigated for it.



Thirsty said:


> Decades of research into gender pay gap and you still believe this?


 Have you actually read any of the research? If so you must agree that it is not based on discrimination but rather choices freely made.



Thirsty said:


> Documented cases of women fired for being pregnant, and you still believe this?


 Again, this is against the law and any employer who does it will be penalised.



Thirsty said:


> I suppose we have no racial or religious discrimination either?


 Of course we do, we also have discrimination against LGBT people, members of the Travelling community and against people with the wrong accent in the wrong place (strong Dublin accent in many jobs, any Dublin accent in Cork etc). People have biases and there is such thing as male privilege but there is also such thing as female privilege. This woman writes very well on the subjust and as a lesbian and a feminist who lived as a man for a year and a half she is qualified from both sides.

The grass isn’t always greener and it is harder to see where we have privilege than to see where we are disadvantaged.

How many times have you heard a woman say that she doesn’t allow her husband to do something, be it going to the pub or play golf or whatever? When a woman does that she is exerting an inappropriate level of control and is the abuser in an abusive relationship. No person should have that level or control over their partner and anyone who thinks that’s okay should take a long hard look at themselves. If your friend or family member talks about their partner like that you have a duty to call them out on it, no matter what the gender mix in their relationship is. I think most men would call out their peers if they treated a woman like that. Can the same be said for women?


----------



## Betsy Og (26 Mar 2019)

Some professional analysis of the sit-ye-ation.....and it might surprise you...(I'm picking up clickbait lingo, - You'll be shocked at what Male Crisis looks like now!! ) 

https://www.independent.ie/life/modern-man-is-irish-masculinity-really-in-crisis-37948555.html


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## Purple (26 Mar 2019)

Betsy Og said:


> Some professional analysis of the sit-ye-ation.....and it might surprise you...(I'm picking up clickbait lingo, - You'll be shocked at what Male Crisis looks like now!! )
> 
> https://www.independent.ie/life/modern-man-is-irish-masculinity-really-in-crisis-37948555.html



His final lines are particularly good;
"if we can stop analysing everything through the flawed prism of gender, we will see that the common humanity binding men and women together is far greater than anything that divides us. Failing to understand this would, perhaps, be the greatest crisis of all."

I don't like identity politics and an assumption that all men are one thing and all women are another.


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## Betsy Og (26 Mar 2019)

Purple said:


> I don't like identity politics and an assumption that all men are one thing and all women are another.



Sometimes you have to generalise to describe a pattern, but everyone is also slightly different in their own way, so generalisations dont hold to the Nth degree - and that's ok. Its more the 'Zero Sum Game' stuff - which in fairness Vanilla expresses when men launch into 'whataboutery' (of which I may have been guilty in the past.....) but basically if its a plus for women it must be a minus for men. So the genders are pitted against each other unnecessarily. Womens Lib was about helping women, not putting men down - I don't have a problem with it. Job done to a fair extent I think, legislatively at least, so maybe everyone could lower their weapons at this stage??


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## Purple (26 Mar 2019)

Betsy Og said:


> Sometimes you have to generalise to describe a pattern, but everyone is also slightly different in their own way, so generalisations dont hold to the Nth degree - and that's ok. Its more the 'Zero Sum Game' stuff - which in fairness Vanilla expresses when men launch into 'whataboutery' (of which I may have been guilty in the past.....) but basically if its a plus for women it must be a minus for men. So the genders are pitted against each other unnecessarily. Womens Lib was about helping women, not putting men down - I don't have a problem with it. Job done to a fair extent I think, legislatively at least, so maybe everyone could lower their weapons at this stage??


Back to your article;
"The figure of the hapless, incapable man rescued by the savvy, capable woman, is now an inevitable feature of advertising, television and movies. Not only are we men socially inept, biologically redundant and soon to be replaced by robots, but now we cannot even find our socks."
If you take gender out of it and say that you don't like sexism then both men and women should have a problem with the way men are portrayed in advertising and the media at the moment. 
I just watched The Handmaid's Tale. It was brilliant. It did strike me that the only men who were decent were either not white or gay.


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## Purple (12 Apr 2019)

I don't want to start another thread on a  similar topic. 
[broken link removed]excellent report on the Gender Pay gap allows for factors such as personal choices, working hours etc and finds that there is still an unexplained pay gap of 7% between male and female graduates.


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## michaelm (12 Apr 2019)

I suspect that they are barking up the right tree when they suggest that a possible explanation for the unexplained portion of the pay gap is . . "a gender difference in willingness and ability to negotiate salary. Negotiating a salary can make a difference in earnings, and men are more likely than women to negotiate their salaries."

I'm dubious about their explanation . . "In part, this difference may reflect women’s awareness that employers are likely to view negotiations by men more favorably than negotiations by women."

Rather than "women's awareness" of some imagined bias, I suspect that the difference is that women are, on average, more agreeable and less assertive - not ideal for salary negotiations.

They say the unexplained gap is 6.6% after one year . . it would be interesting if they did a follow up study to see how that varies in subsequent years.


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## Purple (24 Apr 2019)

This is an issue that women face in many parts of the world that men just don't face; a girl burned to death by her classmates for reporting sexual harassment. It is appalling but what is so appalling is that it is not unique.


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## Betsy Og (25 Apr 2019)

I agree Purple it is shocking. What is more shocking is when family members kill their own. Whether its religion or whatever but these people are not on the same spectrum as the West, and I don't think we can draw much parallels or learn much, just sympathise with the poor women forced to live under such conditions & at the UN level or wherever (now that FG has us off leading the world) we can fight hard for womens rights.


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## Purple (16 Sep 2019)

Women are getting angrier but it is all men's fault (obviously).


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## dub_nerd (10 Oct 2019)

Purple said:


> Women are getting angrier but it is all men's fault (obviously).


I looked at Chemaly's TED talk. God be with the days when TED was about interesting factual stuff and not everyone's personal pop psychology. Anyway, good to know that it's empowering when women do it, but it's toxic masculinity when men do it. Joking aside, _everybody's_ getting angrier, me included. My latest fantasy is water cannoning climate activists off the streets. Or maybe eating them.


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## Purple (18 Mar 2021)

Old thread but serious issue.
Less than 1% of funding for domestic abuse supports goes to organisations supporting men, even though they make up about 35% of the victims. There are few Irish stat's on the subject.  What is interesting from the second link is that men are three times less likely to tell anyone about domestic abuse and more likely to contemplate suicide because of it. If those statistics hold true for Ireland then the fact that only one in five calls to the Men's Aid helpline is answered is even more concerning.


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## Leper (19 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> Old thread but serious issue.
> Less than 1% of funding for domestic abuse supports goes to organisations supporting men, even though they make up about 35% of the victims. There are few Irish stat's on the subject.  What is interesting from the second link is that men are three times less likely to tell anyone about domestic abuse and more likely to contemplate suicide because of it. If those statistics hold true for Ireland then the fact that only one in five calls to the Men's Aid helpline is answered is even more concerning.


Cork's Lord Mayor went onto some US television programme recently carrying an oral banner of All Lives Matter. He was set upon by many in the US and the Lord Mayor had to apologise that he hadn't said Black Lives Matter. 

This thread is probably being extended because of the non safety of women travelling in non daylight hours on Dublin transport. In fact, I don't feel safe travelling on Dublin's public transport after dark. It's not just women on this bandwagon, but try telling them that.


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## Purple (19 Mar 2021)

Leper said:


> Cork's Lord Mayor went onto some US television programme recently carrying an oral banner of All Lives Matter. He was set upon by many in the US and the Lord Mayor had to apologise that he hadn't said Black Lives Matter.
> 
> This thread is probably being extended because of the non safety of women travelling in non daylight hours on Dublin transport. In fact, I don't feel safe travelling on Dublin's public transport after dark. It's not just women on this bandwagon, but try telling them that.


In my opinion the problem with framing the dreadful attacks that men perpetrate on women as a women’s rights issue or a gender identity issue is that it creates an atmosphere of fear in half the population and bad decisions are made by people who are frightened. While extremely violent attacks by men on women do happen, they are statistically very rare. While people in general, and women in particular, should be cautious they should not live in fear. The gender politics aspect of this is very damaging to both men and women. It weakens women and it vilifies men. Women become victims and men become monsters. We head down the road of limiting freedoms to protect women from the possibility of attack and, bizarrely, women willingly adopt a role of inequality in which they have to be protected from men.

I don’t want my daughters to grow up in a world where their gender is framed in a Victorian notion of women being these frail creatures who faint when exposed to raw masculinity. I want them to know that they are qual and strong and can handle the vulgarities of the world. I hope they never need “Safe Spaces” or feel that voices they disagree with should be silenced, even when those voices are expressing obnoxious opinions. The reality is that a young man walking down the street is far more likely to be the victim of crime, including violent crime. We all need to be cautious and considerate and men do need to be educated on issues of consent and generally not being creepy and overbearing. All that is true, but framing women as the innocent victims and men as the coercive aggressor in every incident of abuse is not just damaging to both genders it is factually incorrect.


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## Betsy Og (19 Mar 2021)

The main issue I have with it is that there's no great message other that YOU ARE A POTENTIAL RAPIST AND MURDERER - so what am I meant to do with that??

I did like the story shared by the writer about how a gang of lads having a laugh still made her uncomfortable - the message was that just because you know its a laugh doesn't mean everyone will interpret it that way. So be extra careful with...."banter".

Apart from that I guess the message is - don't follow close behind a woman, cross the street instead - it's not about you, its about what she might be thinking. And then for those in the going out zone there's the whole consent issue and being v v careful in that regard.

But yes, I agree there's a bit of hysteria about the level of risk involved in general.


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## mathepac (20 Mar 2021)

Betsy Og said:


> don't follow close behind a woman, cross the street instead - it's not about you, its about what she might be thinking.


Bizarre suggestion. I walk faster than most women and many men.  I do so to move between starting points and destinations as quickly as possible. I have no intention of crossing streets because of what I think someone else might think. Where does the second-guessing stop? Could I suggest that if my perfectly innocent behaviour causes discomfort for someone I approach from behind, then they can cross the street, enter a shop or take whatever proactive defensive measures they feel are appropriate, short of shooting me or screaming for the Guards?


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## Betsy Og (20 Mar 2021)

mathepac said:


> I walk faster than most women and many men.


I hope you're fit, fast walking up behind and heavy breathing.......

Look, I'm not talking about when you're popping out to Spar for a roll at lunchtime on a crowded street, but would it not even cross your mind if you get off a train at night, a lady is off the platform well up ahead of you, you'd catch up with her in the dark night after a quarter of a mile and think nothing of it?


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## michaelm (22 Mar 2021)

Betsy Og said:


> don't follow close behind a woman, cross the street instead


I do this if it's dark and it's a quiet road, as I tip along when walking.


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## odyssey06 (22 Mar 2021)

If a man is passing a woman on same footpath, I think I heard something to the effect that men should go on the inside and woman closer to the road... the other way could make a woman nervous (i.e. gives opportunity to a criminal to pin the woman on the inside).
* This is probably good advice for a man passing another man he doesn't like the look of

Whereas before the man was supposed to go 'streetside' to protect the women from road splashes?


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## Leper (22 Mar 2021)

At local trade union level I spent much time in trying to have unwanted attention towards women outlawed. Believe me, back in the 1970's it was difficult enough to get support from some female colleagues on the matter, never mind management and work colleagues. To be fair to the complainants (not all female) I received much support, but it took years to get a result, I kid you not. 

On this forum we are now talking about passing members of the opposite sex on the outside or the inside of footpaths. The whole issue, while serious is becoming facile as a result of such minor opinions. Common Sense must prevail, a smile is not a threat, good manners are not a threat, doing the right thing is not a threat. I am all for supporting women in the circumstances, but let's be sensible at all times.


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## Purple (22 Mar 2021)

My teenage daughter told me recently that over 90% of women have been sexal_y assaulted. I found that hard to believe and asked her that qualified as a sexual assault. She said that it was unwanted touching in away that could be taken as being of a sexual nature, e.g. someone brushing off the backside, breast etc. I told her that by that standard 90% of men have been sexua_ly assaulted as well and using such emotive language to describe such innocuous acts diminished the very serious impact of real sexual assaults and undermines the victims.


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## mathepac (22 Mar 2021)

Let's make it the law.

Where footpaths exist, men can only walk on one footpath and women must only use the other;  LAs to decide which is which and mark them with signs like the Jacks and Jacquilines.

On roadways where footpaths are not fitted, genders will be assigned specific days and hours where walking on roadways is permitted.  LAs to mark roads appropriately.  Non-gender specific people must cycle, but not after dark.


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## Betsy Og (22 Mar 2021)

Could be a lot of self-identifying going on, depending on which side is sheltered......


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## Purple (22 Mar 2021)

Betsy Og said:


> Could be a lot of self-identifying going on, depending on which side is sheltered......


I told my daughter that I want my pronoun to be “it”.
I’ll have to walk down the middle of the road


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## mathepac (22 Mar 2021)

Well holy god Biddie, who'da thunk?


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## dereko1969 (26 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> In my opinion the problem with framing the dreadful attacks that men perpetrate on women as a women’s rights issue or a gender identity issue is that it creates an atmosphere of fear in half the population and bad decisions are made by people who are frightened. While extremely violent attacks by men on women do happen, they are statistically very rare. While people in general, and women in particular, should be cautious they should not live in fear. The gender politics aspect of this is very damaging to both men and women. It weakens women and it vilifies men. Women become victims and men become monsters. We head down the road of limiting freedoms to protect women from the possibility of attack and, bizarrely, women willingly adopt a role of inequality in which they have to be protected from men.
> 
> I don’t want my daughters to grow up in a world where their gender is framed in a Victorian notion of women being these frail creatures who faint when exposed to raw masculinity. I want them to know that they are qual and strong and can handle the vulgarities of the world. I hope they never need “Safe Spaces” or feel that voices they disagree with should be silenced, even when those voices are expressing obnoxious opinions. *The reality is that a young man walking down the street is far more likely to be the victim of crime, including violent crime.* We all need to be cautious and considerate and men do need to be educated on issues of consent and generally not being creepy and overbearing. All that is true, but framing women as the innocent victims and men as the coercive aggressor in every incident of abuse is not just damaging to both genders it is factually incorrect.


Victim of other men.


mathepac said:


> Bizarre suggestion. I walk faster than most women and many men.  I do so to move between starting points and destinations as quickly as possible. I have no intention of crossing streets because of what I think someone else might think. Where does the second-guessing stop? Could I suggest that if my perfectly innocent behaviour causes discomfort for someone I approach from behind, then they can cross the street, enter a shop or take whatever proactive defensive measures they feel are appropriate, short of shooting me or screaming for the Guards?


It's about consideration of other people's needs, when you're on a bus and an older person is standing you would presumably offer them your seat. Crossing the road to make another person feel more comfortable and safe is in the same ballpark.


mathepac said:


> Let's make it the law.
> 
> Where footpaths exist, men can only walk on one footpath and women must only use the other;  LAs to decide which is which and mark them with signs like the Jacks and Jacquilines.
> 
> On roadways where footpaths are not fitted, genders will be assigned specific days and hours where walking on roadways is permitted.  LAs to mark roads appropriately.  Non-gender specific people must cycle, but not after dark.


Do you have any females in your life? Ask them about the attitude you've displayed here.


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## mathepac (26 Mar 2021)

dereko1969 said:


> It's about consideration of other people's needs, when you're on a bus and an older person is standing you would presumably offer them your seat. Crossing the road to make another person feel more comfortable and safe is in the same ballpark.


I can see the fraility and potential vulnerability of an older person on a bus, I don't have to try mind-reading techniques. As for women walking ahead of me on the street do you mean their actual needs or my imagining of their needs? Or your perception of my imagining of their needs?  Is this the new version of gender equality where men must do women's thinking for them and act accordingly?

I'm sorry if my attempt at a jocose remark passed you by, such is life.


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## Purple (27 Mar 2021)

dereko1969 said:


> Victim of other men.


How does that matter?
Is that all you took from my post?


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## mathepac (27 Mar 2021)

Some experts in the report linked to below strongly suggest that part of the answer to helping women not to feel fearful is to stop normalising their apparent feelings of fear.









						What can society do to make women feel safer?
					

Girls grow up in a world where they are told that public spaces are dangerous for women - and that they must take steps of their own to stay safe.




					www.rte.ie
				




"girls grow up in a world where they are told that public spaces are dangerous for women - and that they must take steps of their own to stay safe."

"But Ms Saidlear said a woman’s fear of some places, as well as public transport, can also come from being told from a young age about risk, about the clothes women wear and how women need to mind themselves.

"Women's fear is a social construct," she said."

"Director of the National Women’s Council of Ireland, Orla O'Connor, said that while messages for women to "keep safe" may seem practical, they can become ingrained and instill a sense of fear."

"She said the fear experienced by women is not always related to what is actually happening on the ground; it is linked to the way people are socialised. In other words, what we learn about the world as we grow up."

"Being told from a young age to be careful when outside the home normalises women being afraid of public places, Ms Edwards explained.

She added that the messaging women receive is not helpful - and only reinforces a cycle of fear. "There's a certain hopelessness about it," she said.

Ms Saidlear said these messages also tell women they are responsible for the perpetrator's behaviour, when in reality they have no control over this."


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## dereko1969 (29 Mar 2021)

Purple said:


> How does that matter?
> Is that all you took from my post?


No, sorry that wasn't all I took from your post. I think I was still processing elements of it and hadn't fully made up my mind on it. 
I did feel that it is important for us, as men, to reflect on who is committing the violence and why that might be, so that's why I quoted that specific part. There aren't generally gangs of girls going around beating up strangers (it does happen of course, but is very infrequent).


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## Purple (29 Mar 2021)

dereko1969 said:


> No, sorry that wasn't all I took from your post. I think I was still processing elements of it and hadn't fully made up my mind on it.
> I did feel that it is important for us, as men, to reflect on who is committing the violence and why that might be, so that's why I quoted that specific part. There aren't generally gangs of girls going around beating up strangers (it does happen of course, but is very infrequent).


Yes, men are the perpetrators of the vast majority of physical violence in the world. They are also the victims of most of the physical violence in the world.
Where is becomes less clear is when it comes to phycological violence.


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## Betsy Og (29 Mar 2021)

Fear, of itself, it not so much the problem, it's when it becomes reality. Fear makes us check carefully before crossing the street, if it turns out there's nothing to fear then fine.

Sensible precautions, which they might introduce/reinforce a sense of fear, might keep you safe. This is where the victim blaming rabbithole comes into play. I walk blind drunk through a dodgy part of town with my wallet in my back pocket - I get mugged. You tell me I was stupid, I say you're victim blaming, should I not be allowed to walk through dodgy areas blind drunk, and on and on it goes.

I'm inclined to think killers gonna kill, but for the 99.9% who mean no harm, I don't see the problem with us taking simple steps to make the more vulnerable feel safe.

If I see a biker behind me when I'm driving, I move a little to the left* to let him/her pass without crossing the white line, it enhances safety, maybe they didn't need me to do it, but it cost me nothing so why not. (*I'd recommend checking mirror/shoulder check first - those bleedin' cyclists get everywhere)


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## Purple (29 Mar 2021)

Betsy Og said:


> This is where the victim blaming rabbithole comes into play. I walk blind drunk through a dodgy part of town with my wallet in my back pocket - I get mugged. You tell me I was stupid, I say you're victim blaming, should I not be allowed to walk through dodgy areas blind drunk, and on and on it goes.


And it is a rabbithole and very loaded with preconceptions of what people's real agendas are.


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