# I am not paying the Household Charge because...



## serotoninsid (26 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> Seems to me that they are using vast amounts of energy on problems and zero on solutions!


I don't have any issues with any of the things you mentioned.  I feel if I want to pay (which I dont right now), then it's not that difficult.

However, until such time as the local council stop passing the parcel with my correspondence re. taking my estate in charge, then I won't be paying.  I'm paying for services and they won't even answer my questions relating to this - before we even discuss the nuts and bolts of having the estate taken in charge!   This is being played out up and down the country - with the same approach.  This is a *service* charge - if you want to enforce a *service* charge, then you provide basic *services*.


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## Marion (26 Mar 2012)

I also live in an estate that has been taken over by the county council but we have to pay for grass cutting and maintenance ourselves. Costs approx €5000 per annum divided by 50 neighbours . 

There are unfortunately  some neighbours who piggy back on the rest of us.



Marion


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## serotoninsid (26 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> And where do you think they should get the money to provide you with this basic service?


As Marion pointed out, it covers very little but the very basics.  It doesn't cover grass cutting (and we have the same issue as Marion pointed out in this respect, i.e. 50% of people pay up.).

You think for one second that the moment we pay the household charge, our estate will be taken in charge?  Don't be so naive!!  Most of the problem that we are having doesn't necessarily involve cost.  It involves them getting their act together and accessing the bond the developer left (or did they take one from him at all? ....probably not seeing as they refuse to answer this question!).

The 'Basic Service' i'm talking about was well paid for in stamp duty - as you well know!


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## Marion (26 Mar 2012)

Actually, I have no problem paying for grass cutting and maintenance of the area where I live. I think people should be proud of where they live and be willing to contribute to maintain it. I don't see why the council should have a role in grass cutting and maintenance of communities. 

My sister who lives in Canada tells me that they were where we are now a number of years ago. 

Canadians now accept that to have proper services that they must pay property taxes. She pays approx 3000 on an equivalent size house to mine. 

She also tells me that the government can foreclose on property if the taxes are not paid.


We would all prefer not to pay taxes but, if we want services we have to pay for them. 

I actually don't use my local library but I am happy to pay for it and  I might start using it in the future. I also like the fact that I can choose to go to my recycling centre to dispose of toxic and other waste materials at a minimal cost. I also like having street lights in my housing estate.

Marion


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## thedaras (26 Mar 2012)

serotonised,So where do they get the money from?
I hear what you are saying'but there are no solutions being offered -If I and others pay this charge surely you would benefit from it-if I and others don't pay surely you will suffer even more? I can tell you that the footpaths where I live are in bits that we the residents pay to have the grass cut we pay a private company to collect our bins we plant and look after the green,so the services would be for libraries lighting the police etc?It seems that a change of name from household charge to "we need money to keep the show on the road" tax, plans ""would perhaps be more appropriate,, as a matter of interest, why do you think others are choosing to pay it?


serotonised:





> You think for one second that the moment we pay the household charge, our estate will be taken in charge? Don't be so naive!!


I didnt say that would happen,or elude to it..

serotonised:





> Most of the problem that we are having doesn't necessarily involve cost. It involves them getting their act together and accessing the bond the developer left (or did they take one from him at all? ....probably not seeing as they refuse to answer this question!).


When you say "them getting their act together". Who exactly are you talking about?

[/QUOTE]

serotonised: 





> The 'Basic Service' i'm talking about was well paid for in stamp duty - as you well know!


And I also paid 48 thousand euro in stamp duty..


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## serotoninsid (27 Mar 2012)

thedaras said:


> serotonised,So where do they get the money from


Did I say that I was against a property tax in principle? Speaking from a personal point of view, my estate needs to be taken in charge by the local authority before they will see one red cent from me.  Furthermore, (as already outlined) I've had civil servants fobbing me off - not answering very basic questions - with a chain of letters in response saying Mary has passed the matter on to Jim, Jim has passed it on to someone else - and I will guarantee you, If I email them today, I will get exactly the same response (following a basic query submitted 12 months ago).  And you think I should contribute to such "services".  Theres nothing wrong with a property tax - but the fundamentals are wrong in the Irish context as it will be pee'd up against a wall!

Furthermore, the government can fulfil the mandate that they were given by the electorate and renegotiate the banking element of the debt equation.  You might find people much more willing to contribute to our own national deficit if they didn't think their hard earned $ was in part going towards banks that should have been let go.



			
				thedaras said:
			
		

> as a matter of interest, why do you think others are choosing to pay it?


Varying reasons.  Fear for some.  And for others, the reasons you mentioned i.e. basic services.  However, having had the experience of living abroad in a couple of european countries, if the fundamentals are not right (and they very much are NOT), then peoples hard earned money is going to be squandered!



			
				thedaras said:
			
		

> I didnt say that would happen,or elude to it..


Fair enough - but I think 6 years after us all moving in here, it's a reasonable expectation - either before or after paying said charge.  In actual fact, it doesn't matter - as it shouldn't cost them anything IF they have taken an adequate bond from the developer (but they refuse to tell me this).



			
				thedaras said:
			
		

> When you say "them getting their act together". Who exactly are you talking about?


The local authority of course - who else?


			
				thedaras said:
			
		

> And I also paid 48 thousand euro in stamp duty..


Sure you did - everyone did.  However, you understand the context in which I referred to stamp duty i.e. specific issue of them NOT taking my estate in charge relative to a major tax on that property at point of sale.


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## serotoninsid (27 Mar 2012)

ajapale said:


> Is a _*precursor property tax*_ levied on property owners.


I'm fully aware of that.  It is nevertheless a *service* charge insofar as the revenue stream is _supposed_ to find its way into funding local services.

I will NOT be paying for reasons outlined above.


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## uptomyeyesin (27 Mar 2012)

Serotoninsid, your argument sounds a little like the argument people use not to pay their management fees in my estate. No services, not paying. How can you provide services, if people do not pay? Up until this year, the funds for local services came from another pot. If we don't fill this new pot, the cold hard fact is local services will suffer. I don't personally like paying another €100 out a year on top of the €1800 I pay to my management company but thems the breaks. 
DerK is correct - we all have our own opinion on where the money should come from, I would love to see savings other places (dont get me started on allowances and expenses) but this is the decision the government have made and the law of the land. If I don't like it, I will not vote for them again.


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## csirl (27 Mar 2012)

serotoninsid said:


> Did I say that I was against a property tax in principle? Speaking from a personal point of view, my estate needs to be taken in charge by the local authority before they will see one red cent from me. Furthermore, (as already outlined) I've had civil servants fobbing me off - not answering very basic questions - with a chain of letters in response saying Mary has passed the matter on to Jim, Jim has passed it on to someone else - and I will guarantee you, If I email them today, I will get exactly the same response (following a basic query submitted 12 months ago). And you think I should contribute to such "services". Theres nothing wrong with a property tax - but the fundamentals are wrong in the Irish context as it will be pee'd up against a wall!
> 
> .


 
This is because you are getting onto the wrong place. Taking estates into charge is something that is dealt with at local authority level, not by central government. You need to contact your council, not any of the civil service organisations.


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## Fiskar (27 Mar 2012)

serotoninsid said:


> I don't have any issues with any of the things you mentioned. I feel if I want to pay (which I dont right now), then it's not that difficult.
> 
> However, until such time as the local council stop passing the parcel with my correspondence re. taking my estate in charge, then I won't be paying. I'm paying for services and they won't even answer my questions relating to this - before we even discuss the nuts and bolts of having the estate taken in charge! This is being played out up and down the country - with the same approach. This is a *service* charge - if you want to enforce a *service* charge, then you provide basic *services*.


 

The legislation on the Household charge.ie website lists those estates not eligible to pay the household charge. You could safely take it that if your estate is not listed then it is liable for the charge and most likely taken into charge.
You can also find out on the county council website through the council meetings or even better still, ring your local councillor to find out.


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## ajapale (27 Mar 2012)

Why should the local authority take your estate in charge in advance of all the requirements being met? Does youir estate meet the standards set out by your local authority (water, sewers, drainage, roads, footpaths) etc? If not then it is the responsibility of the developer / current owners to rectify.


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## serotoninsid (27 Mar 2012)

uptomyeyesin said:


> Serotoninsid, your argument sounds a little like the argument people use not to pay their management fees in my estate. No services, not paying. How can you provide services, if people do not pay? Up until this year, the funds for local services came from another pot.


NO - it's not!  If you re-read what I have written, what I am asking for doesn't necessarily cost the Local Authority anything! They simply won't engage - that is to say, their existing staff WONT cooperate!  Now, as I said before - I've lived in 2 european countries and know what services get delivered for taxes.  When something is as fundamentally flawed as the example I've given, how could I (or the thousands of others affected by this same issue) have ANY confidence of their property tax converting effectively into services???


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## serotoninsid (27 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> This is because you are getting onto the wrong place. Taking estates into charge is something that is dealt with at local authority level, not by central government. You need to contact your council, not any of the civil service organisations.


symantics.  Ok, are local authority employees not public servants?  If not, my bad - but that's what I meant - and in that way, my point stands!


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## serotoninsid (27 Mar 2012)

Fiskar said:


> The legislation on the Household charge.ie website lists those estates not eligible to pay the household charge. You could safely take it that if your estate is not listed then it is liable for the charge and most likely taken into charge.


It would be totally RATIONAL to expect that Fiskar - but I've checked and our estate is NOT listed as exempt and NOT taken into charge.  There are literally thousands of estates in the same position up and down the country.


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## serotoninsid (27 Mar 2012)

ajapale said:


> Why should the local authority take your estate in charge in advance of all the requirements being met? Does youir estate meet the standards set out by your local authority (water, sewers, drainage, roads, footpaths) etc? If not then it is the responsibility of the developer / current owners to rectify.


Ajapale - they won't even engage with us on the subject - this (or efforts simply to get answers to questions) has been ongoing for 12 months now.  We are in the estate for 6 years!  They won't even confirm the bond (I know there are other ways of obtaining that info - but why can't they just confirm if there is or no and if so, what is it?).

On the back of that, you think anyone in my estate has any faith that the revenue stream raised will be utilised in the same way as it is in the UK, Germany, etc??


<EDIT>  I forgot to add the following point.  You ask why they should take the estate on when its not completed?  Ask yourself this.  Who took a bond from the developer?  Who granted them planning permission?  Who ensured that the developer adhered to planning consent?  Who is supposed to issue enforcement notices and act if there are instances of non-compliance?  Whose responsibility is it to access the bond so as to bring about completion in instances where it's as clear as night and day that the developer isn't going to complete?  That be the Co.Co. Planning Office, right? </EDIT>


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## monagt (27 Mar 2012)

> On the back of that, you think anyone in my estate has any faith that the revenue stream raised will be utilised in the same way as it is in the UK, Germany, etc??



Short Answer is NO, it will be like giving an alcoholic access to an open bar.


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## ajapale (27 Mar 2012)

serotoninsid said:


> Ajapale - they won't even engage with us on the subject



I understand your frustration, Im in a very similar situation and we (through citizens advice) got in touch with an excellent FLAC lawyer who explained the process in detail. It transpired (in our case) that most of the "blame"/"procrastination" lies with the developer and the current owners of the estate (the management company set up by him) and not the home owners or the local authority.

My advice get in touch with FLAC and engage you own solicitor if necessary to progress the matter. 

Spare a thought for rural house owners many of whom who pay for water, sewer, refuse, lighting, litter and even roads (where the road/laneway up to their house is privately owned). They still must pay the €100 property tax and the local authority will never-ever take over these services.


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## serotoninsid (27 Mar 2012)

ajapale said:


> I understand your frustration, Im in a very similar situation and we (through citizens advice) got in touch with an excellent FLAC lawyer who explained the process in detail. It transpired (in our case) that most of the "blame"/"procrastination" lies with the developer and the current owners of the estate (the management company set up by him) and not the home owners or the local authority.


Of course, blame lies with the developer - but the developer worked within the 'system' that was there.  The remarkable thing is that the 'system' hasn't changed!  There is no legislation in place for this - or if there is, it's not being enforced.  We didn't have a management company in place - meaning that we had to get together as a group and organise grass cutting and the like - once the developer told us ..tough, I'm not doing it anymore.  That means that we only get 50% of residents paying up - and there is no way we can make the rest pay!!  That's just plain wrong!  However, legislative change could easily address this!  Likewise, I got an enforcement notice against the developer - but all it was was vapourware - they never followed through and enforced!

So...if a local authority can't get basic things like this right (and there is NO cost involved here! - then you think I have any faith in how they will spend my (and your) €100? (not to mention the additional €200 the year after, and additional €200 the year after that?).

The big elephant in the room is public service and this government (just like the last one) doesn't have what it takes to tackle them head on.  I'm not saying thats an easy job - but it is a necessary job.  If we did that, we might find that we don't need to raise half as much additional $$ to balance the national books. And by the way - this is not news - EVERYONE knows this!



ajapale said:


> Spare a thought for rural house owners many of whom who pay for water, sewer, refuse, lighting, litter and even roads (where the road/laneway up to their house is privately owned). They still must pay the €100 property tax and the local authority will never-ever take over these services.


Well, IF they were to get value for money, then they too would see a return on their €100. Many things that could be improved eg. broadband for rural dwellers ..and that's just the start of a whole list of things that could be addressed had we any confidence that half the revenue won't end up pee'd up against a wall - or used for the purposes of filling in the banking fiscal 'hole'.


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## serotoninsid (27 Mar 2012)

monagt said:


> Short Answer is NO, it will be like giving an alcoholic access to an open bar.


Thank you!  Lets get the fundamentals right FIRST before we start handing over (even) more of our hard earned €€ to what is (at least right now) an incompetent administration.


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## Binomial (27 Mar 2012)

Im not paying the HC because....*Bertie Ahern says he is not paying the Household Charge*


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## reddanmm (27 Mar 2012)

My problem with the charge is why are council owned houses exempt from the household charge . Do the occupants  differ from homeowners  will they not be getting the same services as homeowners

people that have worked hard to buy there own homes are being penalised , many occupants of council houses work for a living so why are they exempt.


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## truthseeker (27 Mar 2012)

My problem is that I already pay management fees and my estate will never be taken in charge by the council.


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## widescreen (27 Mar 2012)

..


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## ajapale (27 Mar 2012)

Council tenant just like all other tenants are not liable to pay this property tax because they dont own the property they live in.

I agree that it is not fair that the Council as landlord is exempt while competing* private sector landlords have to pay the property tax.

I imagine that this exemption will be challenged in the same way as the VAT  exemption was for public car parks competing with private car parks.


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## headache (27 Mar 2012)

I have re-written this post several times so far because I am trying really hard not to rant. I am so frustrated with politicians and their inability to be truthful on any subject or even to use the words 'yes' or 'no'. I am sickened by the poor management and waste of public finances in this country. Any dealings I have with state or local authorities often results in setting my teeth on edge. I'll not bother with specific examples but I am quite sure that each and everyone of you could quote some horror story of recent dealings with your local council, hospital, Revenue, etc. 

Yes I know they are our democratically elected government, but realistically, choices are limited. Parish pump politics and political dynasties are the mainstay of the Irish system. I hate election time but I do vote as I know there are women all over the world who don't have my rights.

My dissatisfaction, no, revulsion, at the waste and cronyism in our society is why I am not paying the charge. It is my means of protest.

Brendan suggested a campaign to encourage payment of the charge on another thread. Brendan, your post suggests that those who do not intend to pay the charge fall into the same category as cheaters and spongers.....

...."Most people I know agree that they should pay their taxes. I do know a few who understate their income and cheat on their taxes, while happy to claim all the state benefits they can."....

I find your comment extremely insulting. Taxation is my job and I take a very strict line on submitting accurate returns. I believe in the necessity of taxes. If you collect VAT and PAYE, etc, not passing it to Revenue is theft In my book. If you make profits, you pay your tax. To suggest that people who take issue with this charge are the type of people who regularly evade taxes and make false welfare claims is a jump to far.

We already pay commercial rates, water rates, bin charges, etc. We need to register our septic tank and who knows, might need to change it even though the council only approved it three years ago.

Despite this, I do not disagree with the concept of a property tax. But that's not what the government will do. Ultimately, the government will still squander money on ridiculous projects, Bertie & Pee will still draw their big pensions, everyone who took retirement on Feb29th will be back on contract and nothing will have changed. For anyone struggling to manage a big mortgage and raise a small family, there is a real fear of what next year's rate could do to their household budget. 

Aw......now I do have a headache!


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## DoctorEvil (28 Mar 2012)

headache said:


> My dissatisfaction, no, revulsion, at the waste and cronyism in our society is why I am not paying the charge. It is my means of protest.



Well said headache. We keep pouring good money after bad in this country.
In my area the local authourity are in such "dire" need of money that they spent the last 3 months of 2011 building a bicycle lane on the old N8 between Abbeyleix and Durrow.
And they have the nerve to say they are underfunded!!!


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## csirl (28 Mar 2012)

> I find your comment extremely insulting. Taxation is my job and I take a very strict line on submitting accurate returns. I believe in the necessity of taxes. If you collect VAT and PAYE, etc, not passing it to Revenue is theft In my book. If you make profits, you pay your tax. To suggest that people who take issue with this charge are the type of people who regularly evade taxes and make false welfare claims is a jump to far.


 
Why is this tax any different to any other tax when it comes to evasion? Its all money which people are obliged by law to pay? I dont see how not paying this is any different to defrauding Revenue of an equivalent amount of income tax or VAT. 

Isnt it more likely that income tax and vat paid into the general taxation pool has a much greater chance of being 'squandered' than a tax that is ring fenced for a particular purpose? Using this logic, you would think dissenters would pay the household charge and not pay other types of taxation.


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## bazermc (28 Mar 2012)

Sounds like we need a thread entitled:

*I am  paying the Household Charge because... *

I would then start with the following points:

-It is the law and non payment is breaking the law, why not pay other forms of taxation if people are so opposed to it, where does the evasion end?
-Despite what people say it is easy to pay, people citing difficulties are using this as an excuse
-Self employed people dont get a "bill" before they pay their taxes it is self assessment system which works well and is used in other countries including the US.
-The money is badly needed to run the country and this system has been agreed with Europe who at the end of the day with Europe we would be completely broke
-Other countries have a lot higher property tax i.e. in the UK, how is this any different.   The UK VAT rate is nearly as high as Ireland but they also have much higher council tax, however the effective tax rate for a PAYE employeee is roughly the same!


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## truthseeker (28 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> Isnt it more likely that income tax and vat paid into the general taxation pool has a much greater chance of being 'squandered' than a tax that is ring fenced for a particular purpose? Using this logic, you would think dissenters would pay the household charge and not pay other types of taxation.



Most people have no input around paying income tax, they cant not pay it, its gone out of their wages when they get them. Similar with VAT, you cant really refuse to pay it at the supermarket till otherwise you just wont be sold your goods.

I dont know if the campaign for payment people are being deliberately obtuse about this but its perfectly obvious to me that the way this tax has been set up allows an opportunity for protest that other taxes do not, on a far grander scale. Its simple really.


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## allie12 (28 Mar 2012)

I am not paying the household charge for a number of reasons:

1) The main one is that I live in a totally privately maintained estate, I already pay over €2k annually for bins/landscaping etc- our management company even maintain the small bit at the entrance that does belong to the council as they never have in 7 years!

2) How do they intend to calculate the charge going forward? What plan do they have-will €100 turn into €1k next year?

3) I had a big pay cut 4 yrs ago, have not seen a penny of it back, while my mortgage (PTSB- now SVR!!), & all other living costs keep going up! After the extra levys and taxes etc I am just about getting by- so I feel that I contribute enough!

4) Frustration at council propertys being excluded- why? Any people I know in council properties work ? 

5) Frustration at OAP's who have contributed all their lives and now regardless of their means have to pay it!!


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## Codogly (28 Mar 2012)

*I'm not paying because ...*

...we would be setting ourselves up for and accepting the future property tax which we have no idea how its going to be calculated ... guaranteed it wont be designed in a fair way , it cant be because to do so would be to grant relief to : Neg equity property owners , Stamp Duty Payers , Unemployed, pensioners, low incomers ... net result = little to no tax payable... they wont do that.

Simply ; Property tax is wrong , its a case of moving the goalpost after the ball has been kicked ..."Not Fair"  You buy your house in the belief that once you'd paid you mortgage its yours ...not if property tax is allowed in ... Dont pay and remember they politicians who tried to impose it on you at the next election, better still e-mail them now and let them know they wont be getting your vote ever again if the presist with implementing a property tax.


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## mcloving (28 Mar 2012)

ajapale said:


> Council tenant just like all other tenants are not liable to pay this property tax because they dont own the property they live in.
> 
> I agree that it is not fair that the Council as landlord is exempt while competing* private sector landlords have to pay the property tax.
> 
> I imagine that this exemption will be challenged in the same way as the VAT  exemption was for public car parks competing with private car parks.



I agree with some type of property tax and not one where everyone pays the same. But I would like to see evidence that the money is being used in the areas it is paid. 

I live in an 8 year old small estate, we have no street lights, council haven't 'taken over' estate, we pay an accountant fee as we had to take over the management of the estate. Was told on phone by council that if the access road to estate was damaged that we as residents would have to pay the repair. 
Why should I pay a household tax?

I will pay it when  bin collection are included, the council 'take over' the estate, and I have to stop paying accountancy fees.

The politicians should stop comparing this to the UK council tax, there most services are included in the charge.
Here we still have private companies charging for bins, recycling etc.

Also it should be payed by the occupant and not the owner. 
Its too  black and white.

The system was a mess then and is a mess now. 
The payment of 100 euros isn't going to change that.

Its all too similar to paying yearly NCT for over 10 year old cars( therefore twice the charge as for newer cars), motor tax on older cars (based on engine size) generally more expensive then newer cars. 

Its another tax on the regular joe.


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## swauna78 (28 Mar 2012)

bazermc said:


> Sounds like we need a thread entitled:
> 
> *I am paying the Household Charge because... *
> 
> -Other countries have a lot higher property tax i.e. in the UK, how is this any different. The UK VAT rate is nearly as high as Ireland but they also have much higher council tax, however the effective tax rate for a PAYE employeee is roughly the same!


 
It makes me furious when this is brought up.  
Yes, other countries pay council taxes (or whatever you want to call them).  However, in exchange for those taxes they receive excellent infrastructure (good roads, public transport network etc.), public lighting, their refuse is collected etc.
Also, most other countries have a car registration tax (my uncle in wales pays £30 per year for this currently) instead of motor tax like we have here.
They don't have to fork out €60 every time they need to visit a Doctor and then get charged exorbitant prices in a pharmacy for a prescription!

My car tax alone is €630 per year.  My refuse collection costs in excess of €400 per year.  Yet when they introduce said property tax/council tax I will still have to pay those other taxes.
I live outside of Dublin and the public transport is non-existent and there are so many poorly maintained roads it is a joke.

I am not against a property/council tax per se.....I would just like it to be fair on regular people like us.  Also, I would like to see that they do indeed ring-fence this money for its intended use.  We all know it's going into the big black hole which is another big problem I have with this charge.


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## csirl (28 Mar 2012)

Questions for those who cite living in an estate that is not taken into charge:

Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay because some developer left a private housing estate without proper infrastructure? Why should I pay for this mistake? If the estate has been handed over to a 'management company', why should I pay because a private management company is ineffective at doing its job or is underfunded? Surely it goes without saying that all housing estates should be finished before they are handed over to a council? Its not for the council to do the developers job. If they are not finished, then surely this is something between the occupiers and the developer/management company? I as a citizen who's always paid my way do not want to pay for those who have not fulfilled their obligations. I've already bailed out enough dodgy property via my tax contributions/NAMA.


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## truthseeker (28 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> Questions for those who cite living in an estate that is not taken into charge:
> 
> Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay because some developer left a private housing estate without proper infrastructure? Why should I pay for this mistake? If the estate has been handed over to a 'management company', why should I pay because a private management company is ineffective at doing its job or is underfunded? Surely it goes without saying that all housing estates should be finished before they are handed over to a council? Its not for the council to do the developers job. If they are not finished, then surely this is something between the occupiers and the developer/management company? I as a citizen who's always paid my way do not want to pay for those who have not fulfilled their obligations. I've already bailed out enough dodgy property via my tax contributions/NAMA.



The issue (for me) is not that a private estate has been left without proper infrastructure - my estate is privately managed, has properly finished infrastructure and it was never intended to be handed over to the council. The issue is that I do not want to pay for services twice. I already pay management fees that cover road maintenance, pavement maintenance, landscaping, grass cutting, bins, street lighting, etc.


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## Marion (28 Mar 2012)

I don't see why people who live in  housing estates have an issue with paying for services that are "paid for "twice".

I pay for my bins ( I share mine with my immediate neighbor to cut costs by 50 % - €160.

I pay my annual residents' fee  - €100

The lighting  (street lighting) is definitely covered by the county council. I know this because the light outside my house was not working and I rang and it was fixed within 2 days.

I pay my house insurance.


I pay for my house maintenance - house painting and maintenance when required.


I service my boiler at an annual cost of €80.

These are the costs of owning property or a home.

What do they have to do with the local authority?

I still say that I would prefer not to pay any of the above and the additional household charge but who will pay for these services that I am obliged  to pay for of if nobody does?


Marion


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## truthseeker (28 Mar 2012)

Marion said:


> I don't see why people who live in  housing estates have an issue with paying for services that are "paid for "twice".



I dont see your point, I pay for everything you have mentioned as well, and on top of all of that I pay a management fee because my estate is privately managed. So I have already paid for the management of my estate, and the council do not have and never will have any involvement. So why would I pay twice for services I receive once?


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## Marion (28 Mar 2012)

My point is that services outside of where we actually live  are provided  or should be provided by the Local Authority and should be paid for by those who live in the broader  community.


Parks
Libraries
Playgrounds
Street lighting
Road maintenance
Salting  roads in icy weather
Clean up weeks
Organized art week
Bycicle lanes


I'm sure to have not included a pile of stuff.

Marion


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## truthseeker (28 Mar 2012)

Marion said:


> My point is that services outside of where we actually live  are provided  or should be provided by the Local Authority and should be paid for by those who live in the broader  community.
> 
> 
> Parks
> ...



What was paying for all of this before the household charge? Oh yes, the 170 million budget cut to the local authorities, which is going to plug some black hole of debt.

How is it fair that I pay for all of the above - some of which do and some of which dont exist in my broader community, and the street of council tenants around the corner do not?

Our bike lanes are so full of holes, weeds, glass and abrupt stops that they are unusable. We got no salting in the area when it was icy and many residents were trapped in estates where I live. Ive never heard of an organised art week locally, certainly not one paid for by the council. I dont have a playground or library locally, although I could drive to one, but if you work normal hours its impossible to use the library. Street lighting is not maintained well in the area either. And I live in Dublin.

Rural dwellers get none of the above.


----------



## Marion (28 Mar 2012)

Rural dwellers get 

Libraries in their local towns

Lighting on main roads

Playgrounds in local towns

Salted main roads to towns

If people choose to live outside of main urban areas that  is their choice and there is a cost to having the privilege to doing this.


Marion


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## Marion (28 Mar 2012)

I referred to community in an earlier post.

By this I mean the immediate estate of 50 people where I live.

The broader community would relate to the town where I live.

Marion


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## truthseeker (28 Mar 2012)

Marion said:


> Rural dwellers get
> 
> Libraries in their local towns
> 
> ...



They do, and if they wish to pay the household charge to pay for these things then they are welcome to do so. I, on the other hand, already pay a substantial management fee and they dont, so I feel I am being asked to pay twice.


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## Marion (28 Mar 2012)

But they might pay for other services like water and sewerage.

We all pay for something.

Marion


----------



## truthseeker (28 Mar 2012)

Marion said:


> But they might pay for other services like water and sewerage.
> 
> We all pay for something.
> 
> Marion



I already do pay plenty for services. Its not my fault that the government decided to cut the LA budgets and then expected me, you and the rest of the public to stump up the difference. You cannot continue to squeeze blood out of a stone. The government could address bloat in the public sector, or over generosity/fraud in the social welfare system. Instead they have decided to impose a regressive tax on a home that I cannot sell due to negative equity. Enough is enough. And it appears to be enough for many other people as well.


----------



## Marion (28 Mar 2012)

Look I would love not to pay more more from my absolutely pillaged public sector salary for services.

I don' t have children so I could say that I don't want to pay for parks or playgrounds or swimming pools or  art programmes or other cultural exhibitions provided by local authorities but I believe they are for the greater benefit of society so I am happy to pay for them.

There are lots of expenses provided for society that I pay for and get no direct benefit but I suck them up.

Marion


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## truthseeker (28 Mar 2012)

Marion said:


> There are lots of expenses provided for society that I pay for and get no direct benefit but I suck them up.



I normally suck it up, but Ive had enough this time.

Ive mentioned it before but the bully boy tactics on this by the government have disgusted me.

We will throw data protection in the bin and go to the ESB.
We will send staff knocking on your door.
There will be death by footpath because you didnt pay.
We will look bad in Europe (on the contrary all international coverage I have seen has been saying fair play to the Irish for making a stand).
You will be a criminal (along with the million other people).
We will go straight to your social welfare payment or bank account.

Are we in North Korea? Are we to have public registrations in the town square overseen by men with guns?


----------



## Fiskar (28 Mar 2012)

Marion said:


> Look I would love not to pay more more from my absolutely pillaged public sector salary for services.
> 
> I don' t have children so I could say that I don't want to pay for parks or art programmes or other cultural exhibitions provided by local authorities but I believe they are for the greater benefit of society so I am happy to pay for them.
> 
> ...


 

Nice that you can afford to suck them up. Most of us cannot, most of us are being sucked up by PTSB and have nothing left to give.
I disagree that we are getting services from our local authorities, when I was chairman of our residents association their favorite hobby was not answering phone calss and changing staff around like a monopoly board. Planning enforcement powers existed, they were never used. I never see a council worker in our estate, conviently it was taken in charge last year with the road in bits after 2 bad winters. council will not and never will repair it.


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## Marion (28 Mar 2012)

Data protection is not  an issue this has been confirmed by Billy Hawkes our data commissioner.

Tv license inspectors call - what' s new?
Death by footpaths ?
 Ask the Greeks
Criminal Not sure
Absolutely. Agree totally.

No. In a totally democratic society where people were asked to pay for charges and it was understood that we were responsible for our own actions. Pay up on time or pay up later with a penalty

Seems straight forward to me.

By the way I only own my own house - paying a mortgage. How many houses do you own? 

I obviously have to cut down expenses elsewhere.

We all have our expense priorities. My car is 10 years old. How old is yours?


I don't expect you to answer the questions they are posed so that people can reflect on what their expense priorities are.

I can "afford" expenses because I forgoe other expenses.

We all have our priorities.



Marion


----------



## serotoninsid (29 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay because some developer left a private housing estate without proper infrastructure?


Join the dots.  Your being asked to pay a *service* charge.  For the most part, this involves *services* provided by your local council (with some exceptions).  Guess who has overseen the developments that have popped up everywhere?  - your local councils planning office.  Who was it that took bonds (or were supposed to) from developers to ensure completion?  Who is it that serves enforcement notices for non-compliance (...only NOT to follow up and enforce at a later stage in many instances).




csirl said:


> If the estate has been handed over to a 'management company', why should I pay because a private management company is ineffective at doing its job or is underfunded?


See my initial point above.  Also, be mindful that management companies don't come into the equation for lots of developments.




csirl said:


> Its not for the council to do the developers job


Again, see above.  It's not for the council to DO the developers job - but it IS for the council to enforce adherence to planning.  Many will say, 'but the developers are long gone'.  That may be - but the co.co. planners took a bond (or insurance against non-completion) right?



csirl said:


> I as a citizen who's always paid my way do not want to pay for those who have not fulfilled their obligations.


If you decide to pay this *service* charge, YOU - as a citizen - will be paying your *service* provider (your co.co.) - the very same *service* provider that is culpable in the hundreds of developments that are left in limbo.  Not only that but they have been very happy to leave them in a state whereby they can turn around and say, 'they're not finished so we can't take them in-charge'.

So...there needs to be a seismic shift in understanding that these authorities are expected to deliver tangible services with public money before they are given more of it!  Monagt called it right earlier in this thread when he said it's akin to giving an alcoholic access to an open bar.  Hasn't enough money been squandered over the last few years without adding fuel to the fire?  
From a personal point of view, they must take my estate in-charge before I will pay that ruddy charge.  I advise all others in the same situation (of which there are countless thousands) to take the same approach.  If an estate is not taken in charge, it's not complete - so the waiver should apply.




			
				Marion said:
			
		

> No. In a totally democratic society where people were asked to pay for charges and it was understood that we were responsible for our own actions. Pay up on time or pay up later with a penalty.  Seems straight forward to me.


And in a totally democratic society, the expectation would be that when a government (who unashamedly campaigned on the back of renegotiation) is elected with a clear mandate to renegotiate, they would do exactly that....but I guess the irish application of democracy needs a bit of refining before it becomes the finished article....(only teetering off topic to cover the 'democracy' angle discussed above - and within the context of this discussion)


----------



## serotoninsid (29 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> Why should I, as a taxpayer, pay because some developer left a private housing estate without proper infrastructure?


Join the dots.  Your being asked to pay a *service* charge.  For the most part, this involves services provided by your local council (with some exceptions).  Guess who has overseen the developments that have popped up everywhere?  - your local councils planning office.  Who was it that took bonds (or were supposed to) from developers to ensure completion?  Who is it that serves enforcement notices for non-compliance (...only NOT to follow up and enforce at a later stage in many instances).




csirl said:


> If the estate has been handed over to a 'management company', why should I pay because a private management company is ineffective at doing its job or is underfunded?


See my initial point above.  Also, be mindful that management companies don't come into the equation for lots of developments.




csirl said:


> Its not for the council to do the developers job


Again, see above.  It's not for the council to DO the developers job - but it IS for the council to enforce adherence to planning.  Many will say, 'but the developers are long gone'.  That may be - but the co.co. planners took a bond (or insurance against non-completion) right?



csirl said:


> I as a citizen who's always paid my way do not want to pay for those who have not fulfilled their obligations.


If you decide to pay this *service* charge, YOU - as a citizen - will be paying your *service* provider (your co.co.) - the very same *service* provider that is culpable in the hundreds of developments that are left in limbo.  Not only that but they have been very happy to leave them in a state whereby they can turn around and say, 'there not finished so we can't take them in-charge'.

So...there needs to be a seismic shift in understanding that these authorities are expected to deliver tangible services with public money before they are given more of it!  Monagt called it right earlier in this thread when he said it's akin to giving an alcoholic access to an open bar.
From a personal point of view, they must take my estate in-charge before I will pay that ruddy charge.  I advise all others in the same situation (of which there are countless thousands) to take the same approach.


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## swauna78 (29 Mar 2012)

Marion said:


> Rural dwellers get
> 
> Libraries in their local towns
> 
> ...


 
We don't have a library in our local town.
We have no playground in our local town, this is something we are trying to fundraise for privately at the moment.
There are many roads around here into town and only 1 of them gets salted sporadically during bad weather.


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## Bronte (29 Mar 2012)

swauna78 said:


> There are many roads around here into town and only 1 of them gets salted sporadically during bad weather.


 
And all the people in your local town only use local roads.  They never travel anywhere else?  Most of the money for this charge is going to come from Dublin, so I guess they are subsidising the rare salting of your roads in the winter and the repair and upkeep of those roads.


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## swauna78 (29 Mar 2012)

Marion said:


> By the way I only own my own house - paying a mortgage. How many houses do you own?
> 
> I obviously have to cut down expenses elsewhere.
> 
> ...


 
I (well, actually PTSB) own 1 house which is our family home also.
I also have cut down expenses everywhere I can...
We don't go out.  We don't go on holidays.  We are careful where and when we grocery shop.  My DD gets hand-me-down clothes and toys from her cousins. We don't have Sky Television.  We have a basic broadband package which we need because I work from home 3 days a week.  We changed to a cheaper electricity provider and refuse provider.  I shop around for house and car insurance when the time comes.  I don't buy clothes for myself.  I get my hair cut once per year.  I colour it myself.
My car is 9 years old.

I am paying PTSB an SVR of 5.19% on my mortgage which is crippling me because my mortgage is over €400 PER MONTH more expensive than someone with the same amount of home loan with AIB.
I pay nearly €800 per month to have my child minded while I go out to earn the average industrial wage.

Before you tar everyone with the same brush or try to get them to 'think' about the priority of their expenses did you not think that in these challenging times they might have already given a LOT of thought to each expense they incur and about the fact that this new expense might be the straw that broke the camel's back!


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## swauna78 (29 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> And all the people in your local town only use local roads. They never travel anywhere else? Most of the money for this charge is going to come from Dublin, so I guess they are subsidising the rare salting of your roads in the winter and the repair and upkeep of those roads.


 
No, that was only one small example of how us people who are 'privileged' according to some do not enjoy the same level of services as others.  That is all.
Look, the LA budgets were slashed by over €100 million by central govt. this year.  Now, they are looking to plug that gap which I totally understand.

However, I also understand when there is simply no more money left in the pot!  That's it.  Simple really.

Why don't they redesign the whole motor taxation farce and include refuse and other such things in an overall property taxation?  That would be fairer in my opinion.  And it would bring it into line with other countries.


----------



## csirl (29 Mar 2012)

serotoninsid said:


> Join the dots. Your being asked to pay a *service* charge. For the most part, this involves services provided by your local council (with some exceptions). Guess who has overseen the developments that have popped up everywhere? - your local councils planning office. Who was it that took bonds (or were supposed to) from developers to ensure completion? Who is it that serves enforcement notices for non-compliance (...only NOT to follow up and enforce at a later stage in many instances).
> 
> 
> See my initial point above. Also, be mindful that management companies don't come into the equation for lots of developments.
> ...


 
Its always the council/Gardai/Financial Regulator/whatever regulator's [insert as appropriate] fault rather than those who actually did wrong. I hate the way people in this country totally dispense with personal responsibility and blame 'the authorities' for all wrongs. 

Saying that you wont pay the Household Charge because your estate is unfinished is no different to someone who bought a dodgy car from a used car salesman refusing to pay motor tax. There is absolutely no moral justification for it other than the individual who has been conned taking out their anger on 'the authorities' rather than going after those who committed the wrong or taking responsibility for their own poor judgement in buying the house/car etc. from the dodgy salesmans/developer etc.


----------



## truthseeker (29 Mar 2012)

Marion said:


> Data protection is not  an issue this has been confirmed by Billy Hawkes our data commissioner.



Wonder how they plan on getting round EU directive 95 46 EC. 
Clearly there is some issue as they wouldnt be threatening to knock on your door if they could just get the info they need from the ESB bill.



Marion said:


> Tv license inspectors call - what' s new?



Considering this is supposedly about providing for under funded LAs, do you not think its a bit Irish to announce that these under funded LAs will have staff door knocking to *remind* people about the Household Charge? 



Marion said:


> Death by footpaths ?



You mustnt have heard the radio interview where Leo Varadkar told some woman that if she didnt pay up the footpaths wouldnt be repaired and would be dangerous.



Marion said:


> Ask the Greeks



Id like to ask an individual Greek, just an ordinary joe public like me.



Marion said:


> Criminal Not sure



Well according to Leo Varadkar people will be criminals. On Ireland AM yesterday morning they had a lady who wrote to him and he wrote back telling her she would be a criminal if she didnt pay.



Marion said:


> By the way I only own my own house - paying a mortgage. How many houses do you own?
> 
> I obviously have to cut down expenses elsewhere.
> 
> ...



I dont even have a house Marion, I have a small apartment. I married since I bought it and if I wanted to have children Id be rightly up the creek now because there simply isnt room. Luckily I dont. 

My apartment is worth less than 60% of its value than when I bought it, and I didnt buy at the height of the boom.

My car is 7 years old. There is only one car in the family.

Both my husband and I have been made redundant, going from combined salaries of over 100k a year to social welfare. My husband has recently, after almost 2 years, been able to find a full time job in his area of expertise, the salary is close to minimum wage. Before you suggest he should have retrained he is educated to masters level with 15 years experience at the top of his field which is specialised, it would be impossible for him to begin again and reach the same levels of education and experience without winning the lotto or turning back the clock. 

Im in a similar position, highly specialised, huge amount of training and education to get to where I am. No real way to retrain unless I had the money for new degree and masters.

Dont talk to me about prioritising, its patronising. 

You are lucky if you can afford another tax, I cant.


----------



## truthseeker (29 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> Its always the council/Gardai/Financial Regulator/whatever regulator's [insert as appropriate] fault rather than those who actually did wrong. I hate the way people in this country totally dispense with personal responsibility and blame 'the authorities' for all wrongs.



So who should be taking responsibility for unfinished estates, places like Priory Hall etc? Its hardly the homeowners fault - are you insinuating that its peoples own fault that their estates are unfinished now?


----------



## serotoninsid (29 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> Its always the council/Gardai/Financial Regulator/whatever regulator's [insert as appropriate] fault rather than those who actually did wrong. I hate the way people in this country totally dispense with personal responsibility and blame 'the authorities' for all wrongs.


Did you READ any of what I posted?  The Planning Office are responsible for Planning consent and planning enforcement.  They are the ones that hold the bond from the developer to ensure the development is completed.  The Planning Office comes under the wing of the County Council. 



csirl said:


> Saying that you wont pay the Household Charge because your estate is unfinished is no different to someone who bought a dodgy car from a used car salesman refusing to pay motor tax.


Your totally and unequivocally wrong in what you say! (is this a troll?)



csirl said:


> There is absolutely no moral justification for it other than the individual who has been conned taking out their anger on 'the authorities' rather than going after those who committed the wrong or taking responsibility for their own poor judgement in buying the house/car etc. from the dodgy salesmans/developer etc.


I didn't show 'poor judgement' as you put it (other than buying in the bubble - and in that, I made the same mistake as countless thousands).  Despite the book valuation, I'm otherwise happy with the house itself.  

And to answer your other point, there is EVERY justification in refusing to pay a *service* charge when the *service* provider (i.e. the county council) who will get that money won't even take our development in charge (despite it being their remit) and won't enforce completion (again, despite it being their remit by way of their Planning Office).




			
				truthseeker said:
			
		

> So who should be taking responsibility for unfinished estates, places like Priory Hall etc? Its hardly the homeowners fault - are you insinuating that its peoples own fault that their estates are unfinished now?


Thank you!  Some sane *rational* reasoning in a world of 'crazy'!


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## mcloving (29 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> And all the people in your local town only use local roads.  They never travel anywhere else?  Most of the money for this charge is going to come from Dublin, so I guess they are subsidising the rare salting of your roads in the winter and the repair and upkeep of those roads.



If  you compare with UK for instance, most taxes come form London, yet all the country is looked after by government.
In Ireland its seems to be only dublin, especially the south that gets services.

Ireland is a very unfair country.


----------



## Bronte (29 Mar 2012)

Serotoninsid, what do you think of the 50% of people in your estate who don't pay for the grass cutting? I'd really like an honest answer to that. 

In relation to your problem with the council. I think you should start a thread on that and see if it can be sorted rather than complaining about it and getting nowher. We had threads on here before and people did manage to get it sorted out, but it took a lot of work and stress and hassle. 

It is very unclear to me what exactly is the issue. Your estate has not been finished properly by the builder, and the council may or may not have a bond to finish it, and they won't tell you if they do or don't have a bond. Is that it?

To anyone else who can pay and won't. Do you not realise that someone is going to have to sit down and say what can we not afford. They are actually going to have to make decisions on whether to close swimming pools or liabries or to buy enough salt in the winter. These hard decisions are on the horizon. In an ideal world we would have wonderful services. We are currently where we are and services are not great, but do you won't won't pay really want to be like Greece. Do you not see what is already happening today in Limerick hospital A&E not able to cope (just one example). 

If people are going to protest, and I think they should, then do it on the treaty changes. Then object to bank bailouts, to lack of reform, but in the mean time we should be writing a list of all the things that are wrong with the running of the country, and sending it to the politicians.


----------



## truthseeker (29 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> ......in the mean time we should be writing a list of all the things that are wrong with the running of the country, and sending it to the politicians.



Good idea. 

I do think that some people see not paying as a way of alerting the politicians that they are not happy, in a stronger form than just sending a letter. I could be wrong.


----------



## allie12 (29 Mar 2012)

truthseeker said:


> Good idea.
> 
> I do think that some people see not paying as a way of alerting the politicians that they are not happy, in a stronger form than just sending a letter. I could be wrong.


 
No, the politicans (the ones we elected on the basis of their campaigns-part of which I am sure included not introducing a property tax!!) only understand money- letters and email are water off a ducks back.

As one of the "coping class" , I cannot and will not give any more-coz right now we are barely getting by!!


----------



## Bronte (29 Mar 2012)

truthseeker said:


> Good idea.
> 
> I do think that some people see not paying as a way of alerting the politicians that they are not happy, in a stronger form than just sending a letter. I could be wrong.


 
Truthseeker I do not envy you with your financial troubles. Hopefully with your other half getting a job things will work out. You both didn't think of going to the UK and going bankrupt when you'd both lost your job. You've mentioned children a few times (if I recall a good while back you had a very touching post). Don't let the small apartment hold you back. You will regret it forever. 

Since I moved abroad I had to rethink my whole attitude. Before I left it was a culture of not paying for anything, bins, rubbish being left illegally, water being wasted, dodging stamp duty, CGT and all that sort of stuff. And then you learn to like things being ordered, that the charges are high but you get proper services. Recently there was a water leak on a bank holiday and the guys here were out on the eve of it at 11 to cut of the water and a leaflet for all the street and they came at 8 next morning of the bank holiday and I remember thinking thank goodness I live here now as if I was at home it would have been the Monday before there was any water and it would have been left to flow down the street for the weekend. I like having a local library which my kids use, fantastic swimming pools and for half nothing, great roads. The council replanted the all the trees on my street last year, they look after everything like that. It's my obligation to see that if there is ice no pedestrian falls etc. But people here can't abide waste. You wouldn't dream of not picking up litter around your own house etc.  And there is shocking waste in Ireland. 

Maybe on AAM we could debate item by item what is wrong, starting with the local councils and suggesting improvements and really a name and shame policy and enforcement for those who can but won't pay.


----------



## dereko1969 (29 Mar 2012)

allie12 said:


> No, the politicans (the ones we elected on the basis of their campaigns-part of which I am sure included not introducing a property tax!!) only understand money- letters and email are water off a ducks back.
> 
> As one of the "coping class" , I cannot and will not give any more-coz right now we are barely getting by!!


 
The property tax was agreed to by the previous Government with the troika and the new Government had no choice but to introduce it. But why let facts get in the way of your argument.


----------



## Firefly (29 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> Since I moved abroad I had to rethink my whole attitude. Before I left it was a culture of not paying for anything, bins, rubbish being left illegally, water being wasted, dodging stamp duty, CGT and all that sort of stuff. And then you learn to like things being ordered, that the charges are high but you get proper services. Recently there was a water leak on a bank holiday and the guys here were out on the eve of it at 11 to cut of the water and a leaflet for all the street and they came at 8 next morning of the bank holiday and I remember thinking thank goodness I live here now as if I was at home it would have been the Monday before there was any water and it would have been left to flow down the street for the weekend. I like having a local library which my kids use, fantastic swimming pools and for half nothing, great roads. The council replanted the all the trees on my street last year, they look after everything like that. It's my obligation to see that if there is ice no pedestrian falls etc. But people here can't abide waste. You wouldn't dream of not picking up litter around your own house etc. And there is shocking waste in Ireland.


 
Hi Bronte,

Sounds like a nice place where you are living. Sadly, even with higher taxes I don't think we'd ever get to that level here. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, I don't know. Nobody seems responsible....perhaps when people do pay this tax they will become more vocal at a local level and demand (better) services. But again, it's a cultural thing...we seem to like to moan but very rarely do anything about it. I bet where you are living people would be out on the street for issues that we wouldn't bother about. 

Firefly.


----------



## truthseeker (29 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> Truthseeker I do not envy you with your financial troubles. Hopefully with your other half getting a job things will work out. You both didn't think of going to the UK and going bankrupt when you'd both lost your job. You've mentioned children a few times (if I recall a good while back you had a very touching post). Don't let the small apartment hold you back. You will regret it forever.
> 
> Since I moved abroad I had to rethink my whole attitude. Before I left it was a culture of not paying for anything, bins, rubbish being left illegally, water being wasted, dodging stamp duty, CGT and all that sort of stuff. And then you learn to like things being ordered, that the charges are high but you get proper services. Recently there was a water leak on a bank holiday and the guys here were out on the eve of it at 11 to cut of the water and a leaflet for all the street and they came at 8 next morning of the bank holiday and I remember thinking thank goodness I live here now as if I was at home it would have been the Monday before there was any water and it would have been left to flow down the street for the weekend. I like having a local library which my kids use, fantastic swimming pools and for half nothing, great roads. The council replanted the all the trees on my street last year, they look after everything like that. It's my obligation to see that if there is ice no pedestrian falls etc. But people here can't abide waste. You wouldn't dream of not picking up litter around your own house etc.  And there is shocking waste in Ireland.
> 
> Maybe on AAM we could debate item by item what is wrong, starting with the local councils and suggesting improvements and really a name and shame policy and enforcement for those who can but won't pay.



Lovely post Bronte - thank you.

Where are you now? Myself and himself have given until summer 2013 to decide on moving elsewhere. Its really his father in law and the negative equity that has us holding back, his father in law is not doing great either financially or healthwise and we like to help him out where we can. The NE means that we cant sell, to rent we would still have to cover some of it ourselves - but that alone could be do-able. 

We may yet go, its where is really the issue - Im very interested in the positive vibes from you on your location.


----------



## csirl (29 Mar 2012)

allie12 said:


> No, the politicans (the ones we elected on the basis of their campaigns-part of which I am sure included not introducing a property tax!!) only understand money- letters and email are water off a ducks back.


 
I disagree. Not paying this charge will have absolutely no impact on any individual politicians save that the Minister for the Environment may get the boot. The only currency politicians understand is votes. If you disagree with the charge, vote for someone else next time. 

I think the most likely impact of a low payment rate is that central Government will interpret it as dissatisfaction with local government rather than themselves. Due to this dissatisfaction, and lack of funds, they'll start closing down/merging local authorities and associated organisations. My guess is that the very same people who are objecting to this charge will be out protesting that their county no longer has its own local authority due to be merged with a couple of others nearby with consequential job losses and reduction in services.


----------



## Firefly (29 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> My guess is that the very same people who are objecting to this charge will be out protesting that their county no longer has its own local authority due to be merged with a couple of others nearby with *consequential job losses* and reduction in services.


 
I don't get this part. Under the Croke Park Agreement there is no involuntary redundancies in the public service....so why should services suffer?


----------



## allie12 (29 Mar 2012)

csirl said:


> I disagree. Not paying this charge will have absolutely no impact on any individual politicians save that the Minister for the Environment may get the boot. The only currency politicians understand is votes. If you disagree with the charge, vote for someone else next time.
> 
> I think the most likely impact of a low payment rate is that central Government will interpret it as dissatisfaction with local government rather than themselves. Due to this dissatisfaction, and lack of funds, they'll start closing down/merging local authorities and associated organisations. My guess is that the very same people who are objecting to this charge will be out protesting that their county no longer has its own local authority due to be merged with a couple of others nearby with consequential job losses and reduction in services.


 
I didn't vote for this crowd the first time around!! 

Merging of LA is something that should have been done prior to this, as they are the biggest waste of money! It is crazy how much money they waste, on a daily basis! 

If they are forced to merge some of many many LA we have, we may get a more efficent entity!


----------



## csirl (29 Mar 2012)

Firefly said:


> I don't get this part. Under the Croke Park Agreement there is no involuntary redundancies in the public service....so why should services suffer?


 
PS is still shedding people thru natural wastage. But the biggest area of job losses will probably be for local companies who provide various contracted services.


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## csirl (29 Mar 2012)

allie12 said:


> I didn't vote for this crowd the first time around!!
> 
> Merging of LA is something that should have been done prior to this, as they are the biggest waste of money! It is crazy how much money they waste, on a daily basis!
> 
> If they are forced to merge some of many many LA we have, we may get a more efficent entity!


 
I agree with you re: the merging. There is no reason why Ireland needs dozens of local authority when 4 or 5 would suffice.


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## serotoninsid (29 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> Serotoninsid, what do you think of the 50% of people in your estate who don't pay for the grass cutting? I'd really like an honest answer to that.


I know what point your trying to score here but it won't stand up as I will go on to clarify.

In the case of those who cannot pay due to not being able to keep their heads above board, I think that's fair enough.  In the case of those that can afford to pay but won't, I think they're scumbags!  I might add that there is total transparency in how the fee collected by our residents association is spent - and that information is broken down and supplied to all stakeholders....no room for funds being siphoned off or wasted.

The answer you were looking for?  You think you can make direct comparison between this and the household/*service* charge?  Sorry - they're not comparable in the context that I originally presented the issue at the start of this thread - please go back and read it.



Bronte said:


> In relation to your problem with the council. I think you should start a thread on that and see if it can be sorted rather than complaining about it and getting nowhere. We had threads on here before and people did manage to get it sorted out, but it took a lot of work and stress and hassle.


Please run a check on my previous posts.  I have accessed the collective pool of knowledge on AAM in relation to various aspects of getting an estate taken in charge.
N.B.  You mentioned that there was a lot of 'stress' and 'hassle' involved?  Why so?  The stress and hassle caused by belligerent council staff and general council policy (to avoid taking estates in-charge)??.  And these are the people you expect me (and the thousands of others with estates in limbo) to pay our *service* charge to?
Furthermore, from you post, it seems that the insinuation is that all I have done is spent my time complaining?  That's not the case.  I have pursued all avenues to get this sorted.  I have gotten them to issue an enforcement notice.  However, it was rather naive of me to think they would follow up on this. I know now that was only issued to palm me off.  Others in my estate have taken exactly the same steps and had our efforts thwarted in the very same way as mine.


Bronte said:


> It is very unclear to me what exactly is the issue. Your estate has not been finished properly by the builder, and the council may or may not have a bond to finish it, and they won't tell you if they do or don't have a bond. Is that it?


I think I have articulated it quite clearly if you read the posts that i've written.  However, let me clarify it for you further.  A council that has acted _competently_ would be holding either a bond to be used by them in the event that the estate isn't completed - or an insurance policy against this outcome.  They may well have a bond but they refuse to answer my question on this - that's not incompetence, that's not negligence - it's pure and utter failure as a service provider at the most fundamentally basic of levels. Now...on that basis, you think I should pay a service charge to a council that won't even oblige at such a fundamentally basic level?



Bronte said:


> To anyone else who can pay and won't. Do you not realise that someone is going to have to sit down and say what can we not afford. They are actually going to have to make decisions on whether to close swimming pools or liabries or to buy enough salt in the winter. These hard decisions are on the horizon.


To those very same people - stand your ground!  If things have to get worse before we fix them, then so be it.  Again, monagt's turn of phrase is so apt - it's (paying this charge) like offering a free bar to an alcoholic!



Bronte said:


> If people are going to protest, and I think they should, then do it on the treaty changes. Then object to bank bailouts


No, you don't!  This money is going in part towards a banking bailout - as they have reallocated local authority funding away from LA's to fill the banking fiscal hole!  Again, I draw peoples attention to the fact that this administration was elected on the back of a clear policy to renegotiate - and a mandate from the people to renegotiate.  The moment they took power, they blatantly disregarded the peoples wishes on this. _Democracy_ irish style...


Bronte said:


> To lack of reform


I've already demonstrated one clear example (that one example affecting countless thousands of home owners) of service providers (county councils) that are in need of total reform.  Otherwise, we give them our hard earned cash and they will pee it up against a wall.


----------



## Bronte (30 Mar 2012)

It is actually not at all clear to me what exactly your issue was. I think my suggestion of you posting a thread on just your problems in your estate with an outline of the history, just the exact problems and maybe you would get some solutions. I notice that a poster called 'One' gave you excellent advice. At least the advice seemed excellent to me. 

The advice for others was:

Give up on the council and finish the estate by everyone in the estate coming together, finding out the costs of finishing the estate and each house paying their share. He even mentioned that it was the best money they ever spent. 

If there is no bond, if there is no willingness by the council to engage, if they don't have any money (most likely, and I wonder why), and if the builder is bust (most likely) and if not bust and forced to act he will go bust anyway then you and your neighbours need to do something to sort it out.

I have a sibling who purchased one of those lovely new builds in Dublin. Naturally management fees were paid at the beginning by the builder until last house was sold. Then low and behold whopping bill, sibling in shock, (I didn't sign up for this etc etc) did not pay and 3 years later complained to me that the services were bad in her estate and when told by me that what do you expect if everyone is like you and doesn't pay, well sibling did not want to hear etc etc. And now as each year goes by estate, along with plenty of others I've witnessed throughout the country are deteriorating and losing even more value than others.

And that's exactly what will happen to your estate unless you do something about it. And wasting time with the council is pointless. And if you want reform of how the council works then complain to your TD and don't vote for him next election unless changes are made, but make sure he knows that. And get a campaign going in your estate to that TD.  It works, in an estate where I lived the residents managed to get traffic lights, and bumps in the road etc it took a couple of years but they got there.


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## seantheman (30 Mar 2012)

Firstly,I've been out of action for a while so apologies if a post with similar content is already out there.
I decided quite a while ago,not to pay the household charge on time.I have my own reasons for doing this some of which are already brought to the fore by other posters on this thread.I can afford it,so am not part of the cant pay,wont pay brigade.Neither am i alligned to the ULA,SF,or Éirigi.what i detest,is that these groups will take credit for me not paying and this certainly is not the case.I'm sure there are thousands of non-payers that feel the same way as me,but it makes me sick to think that Daly,Doherty,Higgins and the likes of the pipsqueak padre from Donegal Ferry will be crowing when a large percentage wont pay.


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## serotoninsid (30 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> Give up on the council and finish the estate by everyone in the estate coming together, finding out the costs of finishing the estate and each house paying their share. He even mentioned that it was the best money they ever spent.


Hi Bronte.  We are further on than many other developments around us - and have come together as a group, formed a residents association and have got on with things ourselves.  However, there are a couple of items that are simply beyond what we can achieve.  Added to this is the fact that as this is an optional thing for people, only 50% of folks contribute.  This is inherently wrong.  However, it can be legislated for.



Bronte said:


> If there is no bond


No - sorry - and this is key.  If there is no bond, then we are talking about gross negligence.


Bronte said:


> If there is no willingness by the council to engage


Again - this is fundamental in the overall context of why NOT to pay this *service* charge. They currently have the overhead of staff in place right now anyways.  It is not going to cost them any extra to simply answer our questions rather than palm us off, is it?  On that basis alone, how could there be an expectation of the general public in paying a service charge when the alleged *service* provider fails at such a basic and fundamental level? 


Bronte said:


> if they don't have any money (most likely, and I wonder why)


The developer paid them a bond (most likely - and if he didn't then its gross negligence on the part of the council as outlined above).  This bond should be held for the very purpose of bringing about completion of the estate.  If they have blown it, that is not acceptable.


Bronte said:


> and if the builder is bust (most likely) and if not bust and forced to act he will go bust anyway


Still filing accounts.  And so that means that the enforcement notice that was issued was never followed up on and enforced!


Bronte said:


> You and your neighbours need to do something to sort it out.


Yes, and it would help enormously if there can be legislative change to place an obligation on property owners within an estate to contribute towards estate maintenance fees.  This is not something that will cost anything to enact - but something that has implications for developments all over the country.



Bronte said:


> I have a sibling who purchased one of those lovely new builds in Dublin. Naturally management fees were paid at the beginning by the builder until last house was sold. Then low and behold whopping bill, sibling in shock, (I didn't sign up for this etc etc) did not pay and 3 years later complained to me that the services were bad in her estate and when told by me that what do you expect if everyone is like you and doesn't pay, well sibling did not want to hear etc etc. And now as each year goes by estate, along with plenty of others I've witnessed throughout the country are deteriorating and losing even more value than others.  And that's exactly what will happen to your estate unless you do something about it.



Point very well made - and it is something that we are collectively acutely aware and mindful of.  This reason alone has motivated us in getting organised and the 50% of us who contribute know that despite it being distasteful knowing that 50% are not, it's still very much worthwhile biting our tongues on that - and contributing towards maintenance - which we do.  Furthermore, this has been very much a positive development that has come about due to a negative - and it touches on a point Marion made earlier in this thread i.e. that people have to have some pride in where they live and a direct input into the upkeep of their own estates.

However, bringing this back to the overall theme to this thread, we are all the while doing our best to keep our estate in a good state. However, for the reasons outlined in this and other posts, don't expect us to pay a *service* charge when the *service* provider sticks their finger up at us!



			
				Bronte said:
			
		

> And if you want reform of how the council works then complain to your TD and don't vote for him next election unless changes are made, but make sure he knows that. And get a campaign going in your estate to that TD. It works, in an estate where I lived the residents managed to get traffic lights, and bumps in the road etc it took a couple of years but they got there.


We have done exactly that.  Local representative has been contacted on a number of occasions. We have met with him and made our position clear.  We have - as an estate - handed in letters from all home owners - declaring that we will not pay any household charge until such time as the estate is taken in charge by the council.


----------



## Firefly (30 Mar 2012)

serotoninsid said:


> We have - as an estate - handed in letters from all home owners - declaring that we will not pay any household charge until such time as the estate is taken in charge by the council.


 

The other approach that you could consider is that by explicitely paying a service charge you should be in a stronger position to argue that the LA take over your estate. You mentioned you have engaged the services of a solicitor...perhaps something to ask him/her about...


----------



## Bronte (30 Mar 2012)

At least after the last post I can see where you are at. There are a few issues here:

You see how hopping mad you are at those who don't pay in your estate, well I feel like that about you. Yes you are right to be annoyed at the council, but they are not a somebody, they don't have feelings and don't care if you pay or not. You are biting off your nose to spit your fact by not paying the charge, no matter what you do you will eventually have to pay it and heftly, you and the others in your estate should be sure that you are aware of the implications.

The council

Yes they are incompetant and wasteful, all over the country. They don't reply to your letters etc. Well how do you make them reply. Have you tried hiring a solicitor. Do they ignore your letters altogether? Have you tried meeting with them. Would bombarding them with letters work? What works with councils, does anyone know?

The bond

Are councils legally obliged to use a bond paid for x estate for that estate or does it go into the kitty and is at the discretion of the council? Maybe someone who has done this before might clarify. Wasn't there a thread on this a long time ago?

The builder

If he files accounts, he's still in business, but does he have assets, is he a 'mark' would he go bust if pursued, is he liable for completing, does your contract with the builder have anything on that, these are questions you might want to ask the solicitor who did the purchase for you

Council's negligence

You say that the council is negligent if they didn't get a bond. How would you prove negligence, has anyone ever successfully sued a council for not getting a bond, don't think so. And if they have no legal duties to do so you cannot sue them.

Enforcement notice

What exactly is this. The council issues a document with this title to the builder telling him to complete the estate? And when he doesn't what is the next legal step and how do you get them to bring the builder to court. Presumably this document has some legal weight, does it have to be the council to bring the case, and how does one force them. More questions for your solicitor.

Residents forced to pay maintenance charges

Do you see the irony of the fact you wish it were the law that your neighbours pay these charges in your estate but you don't want to pay the household charge. I do agree with you though, I think there should be a mechanism to force everybody to pay up. It works on the continent.

Local representative

What exactly is he doing to help? Does he bring it up at council meetings. Can you go to a higher level. Have you thought about writing letters to your local newspaper complaining about the council.

Well done

And you are to be admired for your efforts on behalf of the people in your estate. It is no easy thing to be involved, to take the time, to take the flak, to fight the council, to put up with those who won't pay, it is a very stressful thankless job. 

On another positive note, from my Greek friends who I was discussing this with, as you do. Apparently services have actually improved there, because.... the civil servants are being more productive as they are afraid of losing their jobs. But trust me we don't want to go anywhere near the pain the Greeks have.


----------



## Bronte (30 Mar 2012)

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=125712

That's a very interesting thread just on this topic, I knew we had covered it before but didn't realise I'd started it.


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## Firefly (30 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> On another positive note, from my Greek friends who I was discussing this with, as you do. Apparently services have actually improved there, because.... *the civil servants are being more productive as they are afraid of losing their jobs*. But trust me we don't want to go anywhere near the pain the Greeks have.


 
If this were a reality here I have no doubt that things would improve, but sadly it's not. Until the local authorities face consequences things won't change. In fact, if they get money from this new tax from people voluntarliy* then there is little incentive for them to cut costs/imrove services.

* voluntarliy as in you will have to pay eventually, but you can avoid paying it until then.


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## dereko1969 (30 Mar 2012)

mcloving said:


> If you compare with UK for instance, most taxes come form London, yet all the country is looked after by government.
> In Ireland its seems to be only dublin, especially the south that gets services.
> 
> Ireland is a very unfair country.


 
Any chance of some examples of the services you're missing out on?


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## roytheboyo (30 Mar 2012)

The reason i am not paying is that my local authority could not manage a waterfight.
They have wasted millions over the years, a good example being when they decided to eject a construction company from the eyre square job (Galway), they got legal advice at every stage to say they were wrong in doing that, but their arrogance meant that they appealled it all teh way and ended up paying €1.5m in legal costs, as well as the additional cost of getting the work done and loss of profit to the company they threw out.  Thats a lot of €100 charges. Muppets.


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## oldnick (30 Mar 2012)

To a certain extent everyone on this thread is right. But Firefly hits the spot with the point that local authorities will do little until they face consequences.

It's good to hear that the lazy,spoilt Greek civil servants are now waking up because they are seeing jobs and wages cut. That's great. Back in zombie land here we've tens of thousands of useless pen pushers who believe that they'll earn good wages and pensions for ever.

Whenever a council officIal talks about the need for this property tax they mention the fire service or other vital services - just like the civil service unions who bleat on about the front line services.

We know that we need essential services. It's insulting for them to go on about them as if this is where all our taxes ansd charges are going.
We know full well that there is a vast middle section of civil servants ,including local authority workers, who do very little productive work and barely respond to the needs of the people they supposedly serve..

My shame is that I've paid all my taxes, charges,fees . I'm an old middleclass guy who cowardly does everything "properly". But I can't blame those who are taking a stand and refusing to pay. 
 However, as Bronte points out, just not paying is not the answer -or,at least,the only answer. More active action, preferably legal, is required of those who are angry enough not to pay. 
 And ,I suppose, more active action from lazy cowards like me.


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## serotoninsid (30 Mar 2012)

Firefly said:


> The other approach that you could consider is that by explicitely paying a service charge you should be in a stronger position to argue that the LA take over your estate.


It's another approach firefly - no doubt.  However, call me a cynic but given our experience in this instance - and the manner in which public sector bodies are run (and this has NOT changed in any meaningful way despite these times of 'austerity' and crisis), I think we would find ourselves in very much a weaker position rather than stronger as a direct consequence.



Firefly said:


> You mentioned you have engaged the services of a solicitor...perhaps something to ask him/her about...


No - never mentioned that.  From the little I know, going down a direct legal route is not a decision to be taken lightly.  Just being right isn't enough - these things can clock up quite a lot of billing hours and are not likely to get resolved any faster.



			
				Firefly said:
			
		

> Quote:Originally Posted by Bronte
> _On another positive note, from my Greek friends who I was discussing this with, as you do. Apparently services have actually improved there, because.... the civil servants are being more productive as they are afraid of losing their jobs. But trust me we don't want to go anywhere near the pain the Greeks have._
> If this were a reality here I have no doubt that things would improve, but sadly it's not. Until the local authorities face consequences things won't change. In fact, if they get money from this new tax from people voluntarliy* then there is little incentive for them to cut costs/improve services.





			
				roytheboyo said:
			
		

> The reason i am not paying is that my local authority could not manage a waterfight.





			
				oldnick said:
			
		

> Back in zombie land here we've tens of thousands of useless pen pushers who believe that they'll earn good wages and pensions for ever.


Anyone see a theme forming here? i.e. the shameless mismanagement of public money.  Everyone knows it - it's no secret.  This is where the heavy lifting needs to be done.  I know it really is heavy lifting - but that's what this government need to tackle.  Maybe we might actually find that we don't have a shortfall/deficit in national spending if this was tackled?  And thereafter, maybe people would be far more inclined to pay a *service* charge...


----------



## serotoninsid (30 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> You see how hopping mad you are at those who don't pay in your estate, well I feel like that about you.


I knew that was where you were heading.  However, I beg to differ on your rationale here given my account of my situation.  As previously stated, I am in favour - in principal - of a property tax.  Notwithdstanding that, how could it be reasonable to expect me (and there are thousands of others in exactly the same situation in respect of their own estates)to pay an _alleged_ *service* provider who has treated me with utter contempt and failed miserably to provide the most basic, fundamental *service* i.e. taking my estate in-charge.


Bronte said:


> Yes you are right to be annoyed at the council, but they are not a somebody, they don't have feelings and don't care if you pay or not.


I'm not sure where your going with that?  This is not personal - but it is situational and the points I raised stand.  As regards them not caring whether we pay or not, you think it doesn't mean anything if 70% don't pay?  At a more local level, you think that it doesn't mean anything when we have made it clear to our local representative that we don't intend to pay?



Bronte said:


> You are biting off your nose to spit your fact by not paying the charge, no matter what you do you will eventually have to pay it and heftly, you and the others in your estate should be sure that you are aware of the implications.


Ah yes, instilling fear is a great motivator!  We had that with the 2nd democratic referendum - you know the one..where the people said 'no' so the democratic thing to do was vote again.
We shouldn't have been put in this position - but here we are.  Is there any point at which you would have the fortitude to take a stand - or would you simply accept anything that was decreed by our _democratically_ elected peers?


Bronte said:


> The council
> 
> Yes they are incompetant and wasteful, all over the country. They don't reply to your letters etc. Well how do you make them reply. Have you tried hiring a solicitor. Do they ignore your letters altogether? Have you tried meeting with them. Would bombarding them with letters work? What works with councils, does anyone know?


Ok, so you have identified that there is something fundamentally wrong with these public authorities - yet you will add more fuel to the fire by throwing more hard earned money at them? Again, I have to call on monagts analogy  - it's akin to offering a free bar to an alcoholic.



Bronte said:


> If he files accounts, he's still in business, but does he have assets, is he a 'mark' would he go bust if pursued, is he liable for completing, does your contract with the builder have anything on that, these are questions you might want to ask the solicitor who did the purchase for you


This really doesn't matter.  Either the developer finishes it or the council accesses the bond and does it.  Where is the grey area?  Where is the need for further discussion?  It really IS that simple.  But of course, this is all dependent upon what way the council would prefer this to play out....and we know exactly what that is.


Bronte said:


> Enforcement notice
> What exactly is this. The council issues a document with this title to the builder telling him to complete the estate? And when he doesn't what is the next legal step and how do you get them to bring the builder to court. Presumably this document has some legal weight, does it have to be the council to bring the case, and how does one force them. More questions for your solicitor.


He was issued with a notice of non-compliance with one aspect of his planning consent.  He ignored it.  You talk about legal avenues - you must be worldly enough to know that this is a route that requires a lot of thought before taking such an option.  We are a development of less than 30 dwellings - where just 50% are actively contributing to efforts with this.  All in negative equity - and like the rest of society, dealing with their own financial woes to varying extents.  



Bronte said:


> Residents forced to pay maintenance charges
> Do you see the irony of the fact you wish it were the law that your neighbours pay these charges in your estate but you don't want to pay the household charge. I do agree with you though, I think there should be a mechanism to force everybody to pay up. It works on the continent.


No - I don't see the irony at all.  See the first point I made at the beginning of this very post.  They are NOT comparable.  To refresh your memory, I AM in favour of a property tax in principal - and WILL pay this *SERVICE* charge the moment our estate is taken in charge by the *SERVICE* provider i.e. the Co.Co.


Bronte said:


> Local representative
> What exactly is he doing to help? Does he bring it up at council meetings. Can you go to a higher level. Have you thought about writing letters to your local newspaper complaining about the council.


What is he doing?  Well, when all is said and done - nothing tangible insofar as I can see.  It was discussed on local radio as recently as last Sunday - not specifically regarding our estate - but again, this reinforces the point of just how many people are affected by this.


Bronte said:


> On another positive note, from my Greek friends who I was discussing this with, as you do. Apparently services have actually improved there, because.... the civil servants are being more productive as they are afraid of losing their jobs. But trust me we don't want to go anywhere near the pain the Greeks have.


I truly do see your viewpoint - as I think you now see mine - but I think it's a case that we nevertheless will have to agree to disagree as regards my stance on non-payment of the household charge.


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## mcloving (30 Mar 2012)

dereko1969 said:


> Any chance of some examples of the services you're missing out on?



Amenities that decent societies have such as,  street lights, paths, road markings, play ground, public transport, post office, public areas, parks


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## PaddyBloggit (31 Mar 2012)

*Household charge protestors should 'get a life' according to Alan Shatter!*

from [broken link removed]:

The Justice Minister has said that people planning to protest against the household charge today should "get a life".

The deadline to pay the €100 tax takes affect at midnight tonight, after which penalty fees will apply.

So far, just over 528,000 of the 1.6 million homeowners who are liable for the charge, have actually paid it. 

A  demonstration will be staged outside the Fine Gael Ard Fheis at the  Convention Centre in Dublin this afternoon, to oppose this tax.

Alan Shatter says people who don't pay the fee can be brought before the courts and fined for their non-compliance.

Minister Shatter also says a "mountain is being made out of a molehill" given that the tax is only €100:

"This is the lowest property charge you will find anywhere in Europe"

"...I think Sinn Fein and the promise protestors should just get a life'


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## Deiseblue (31 Mar 2012)

In terms of the comparisons with Greece I would say that I too have friends there who tell me that a range of public services have been slashed with the Health Service in particular teetering on the brink of collapse - facts that the International media have confirmed.

It is apparent to my friends that vast numbers of the entire workforce are angry , disenchanted & morale is at rock bottom - a recipe for disaster & continuing industrial relations mayhem.

I would suggest that the current Government by sticking to the Croke Park Agreement are pursuing a better framework for stabilising PS finances.


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## seantheman (31 Mar 2012)

Although i'm not paying this charge before tonights deadline,I feel that the cant pay wont pay brigade were wrong to picket the Council Offices in Dungloe today.What were they trying to achieve? To try and pressurise the staff who were asked to work? or the public who may want to pay?
Surely if they want to protest it should be to the local FG/Lab or even FF representatives


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## monagt (31 Mar 2012)

Frank Fitzgibbon ‏ @FrankSunTimes
Sindo says Phil Hogan hasn't paid €4,320 management charge on apartment in Portugal. He says he's in a dispute over services provided


----------



## pudds (31 Mar 2012)

monagt said:


> Frank Fitzgibbon ‏ @FrankSunTimes
> Sindo says Phil Hogan hasn't paid €4,320 management charge on apartment in Portugal. He says he's in a dispute over services provided





Paddy da Irishman always regarded himself as the Master of cute hoorism
and I doubt that will ever change, I've seen it going on over 6Oyrs. 

And for the plebs at the bottom of society............

"_Don't do as I do, *do as I say*"_


----------



## Bronte (2 Apr 2012)

serotoninsid said:


> I  Ok, so you have identified that there is something fundamentally wrong with these public authorities - yet you will add more fuel to the fire by throwing more hard earned money at them? .


 
Do you not think spending some of your hard earned money on proper legal advice would be well worth it?  You see the link to that other thread I posted up, there was a really great post by MOB who is a solicitor I believe, he no longer posts, but if I were you I'd be hiring him, he knows his stuff and has dealt with this area of the law.  I'm sure an initial consulation would be free and then he will quote you a fee and what is wrong with that.  How is that a waste of money.  

Public authorities seem to sit up and take notice when they receive a solicitors letter.  Maybe that's what you need to get the stick of dynamite under your council.  Or at the very least you would find out if you are wasting your time.


----------



## mandelbrot (2 Apr 2012)

monagt said:


> Frank Fitzgibbon ‏ @FrankSunTimes
> Sindo says Phil Hogan hasn't paid €4,320 management charge on apartment in Portugal. He says he's in a dispute over services provided


 
Apples. Oranges.


----------



## monagt (2 Apr 2012)

> http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...harge-is-likely-to-go-down-drain-3067930.html



An example of how the tax will be spent by CoCos..........


----------



## Bronte (2 Apr 2012)

monagt said:


> Frank Fitzgibbon ‏ @FrankSunTimes
> Sindo says Phil Hogan hasn't paid €4,320 management charge on apartment in Portugal. He says he's in a dispute over services provided


 
Is this an April fools joke?


----------



## monagt (2 Apr 2012)

No Joke and Phil is upset at the exposure of his private biz


----------



## mandelbrot (2 Apr 2012)

monagt said:


> No Joke and Phil is upset at the exposure of his private biz


 
Seriously, I'm struggling to see how anyone can equate the two. He is in a commercial dispute, arising out of a private contractual arrangement.

There is AFAIK a property tax in Portugal, of c. 1% p.a. - now if he wasn't paying this I could understand the article, but apart from that it's just a load of twaddle really.


----------



## monagt (2 Apr 2012)

> just a load of twaddle really.



Yeah it is.............buts it funny given the situation...........


----------



## G-Money (2 Apr 2012)

Make no mistake - If you just hand over the money without making the LA work for it, account for it and mind it as if its their own money - It will be pi33ed down a drain. They will come back year after year for more and more and you will get less and less for your money - because like benchmarking - you paid before you got it. Get the service - I will pay the charge..


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