# italian election results: will brussels finally listen to the people



## joe sod (5 Mar 2018)

The italian election results is another slap in the face to the unlistening bureacracy in Brussels. This result follows on from the austrian elections and german election results where right wing parties are in power or have gained large support. This cannot simply be dismissed as populism. There was a laughable quote by the defeated government party in italy, "The democratic parties have been defeated by populists", the democratic parties were defeated by democracy because they refuse to listen to the people. The main reason of course for the election results is unchecked immigration into italy which the mainstream parties throughout europe refuse to talk about or deal with honestly.


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## Purple (5 Mar 2018)

joe sod said:


> The italian election results is another slap in the face to the unlistening bureacracy in Brussels. This result follows on from the austrian elections and german election results where right wing parties are in power or have gained large support. This cannot simply be dismissed as populism. There was a laughable quote by the defeated government party in italy, "The democratic parties have been defeated by populists", the democratic parties were defeated by democracy because they refuse to listen to the people. The main reason of course for the election results is unchecked immigration into italy which the mainstream parties throughout europe refuse to talk about or deal with honestly.


Yea, inter-generational corruption, debt and incompetence; it's all the fault of those pesky immigrants.
It is laughable that those domestic issues are laid at the feet of the EU. Nigel and Boris and are in good company. Oh, and each country sets its own policy on emigration, not the EU. 

This is the same populist clap-trap trotted out by the little-englanders who voted for a return to the 1950's. 

This is the same mindset that elected the buffoon Trump, a man who doesn't understand that a president is not a king. 

We shouldn't take democracy for granted, it's not as robust as some seem to think.


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## TheBigShort (5 Mar 2018)

I like both comments above.

I think the term 'populism' is a term that tends to be used in a demeaning fashion - e.g "those people over there don't understand whats good for them".

Regardless of what I personally think of Brexiteers, Five Star Movement, Nigel Farage, Trump etc, they are simply conveying their own perspectives and social and economic matters and those perspectives are ringing true with a lot of the population.

So if we were to take a cold hard look at the social and economic ills of the day, then perhaps we could relate somewhat to what is happening. I personally believe that I would share a lot of the concerns of these groupings, but I would attempt to  resolve the problems in different ways than to what they are proposing.


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## Purple (5 Mar 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> I personally believe that I would share a lot of the concerns of these groupings, but I would attempt to resolve the problems in different ways than to what they are proposing.


We in Europe have a history of blaming minorities and/or marginalised groups for social ills , even when they have no real connection to them. It generally hasn't turned out well. 
That's the danger of populism; it offers simple, and usually incorrect, solutions for complex problems. It tells us that we are not to blame, rather is is some "other" and if only we deal with that other then everything will be fine. 
It is a lie and it is dangerous and to ignore it is to sacrifice reason and logic on the alter of bigotry, nationalism, racism and xenophobia.


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## joe sod (5 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> We in Europe have a history of blaming minorities and/or marginalised groups for social ills , even when they have no real connection to them. It generally hasn't turned out well.



That has been the prevailing wisdom in europe, we cannot talk about migration into europe or illegal migration because of what happened in the second world war. Therefore anything got to do with these topics must be met with silence, that is what the mainstream parties in europe have been doing for years now and the populations have had enough of it. Silence is not a solution, the only parties prepared to talk about and address these issues are the so called "populist" parties. When we look at other western countries like Canada, Australia, Japan and USA you cannot wander into these countries as an illegal migrant, only europe sends out ships to "rescue" migrants in the sea and drops them in italy. For example Canada is lauded for its liberalist policies yet it has tight controls on migration including on refugees, there are strict criteria and they talk about numbers. Only in Europe has a blind eye been turned to this topic, we cannot talk about numbers, we cannot talk about deportation of illegal migrants. Italy has borne the brunt of this dishonesty and it has had enough


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## TheBigShort (5 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> We in Europe have a history of blaming minorities and/or marginalised groups for social ills , even when they have no real connection to them. It generally hasn't turned out well.



I dont disagree.



Purple said:


> That's the danger of populism; it offers simple, and usually incorrect, solutions for complex problems. It tells us that we are not to blame, rather is is some "other" and if only we deal with that other then everything will be fine.
> It is a lie and it is dangerous and to ignore it is to sacrifice reason and logic on the alter of bigotry, nationalism, racism and xenophobia.



I disagree somewhat. I think the rise of bigotry, nationalism, racism etc does not happen in a vaccum. There are underlying causes, typically represented by a lowering oof living standards (perceived or real).
I find it interesting that immigration angst in UK tends to focus more on Eastern Europeans more so than any others, in a country that has had widespread immigration since the 1950's.
My theory on this is that, very much like Ireland, first generation Polish, Czech, Latvian etc immigrant workers have tend to compete directly with 'native' workers. This is fine when work is abundant, but when it is scarce it is a cause of rising tension. On the otherhand, immigrants from Africa, Middle East and Asia tend to congregate in new communities of their own, Chinatown as an example. Its only when the second generation of those immigrants, speaking with Irish accents, or Cockney accents emerge are they considered as 'one of us'.


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## odyssey06 (5 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> We in Europe have a history of blaming minorities and/or marginalised groups for social ills , even when they have no real connection to them. It generally hasn't turned out well.
> That's the danger of populism; it offers simple, and usually incorrect, solutions for complex problems. It tells us that we are not to blame, rather is is some "other" and if only we deal with that other then everything will be fine.
> It is a lie and it is dangerous and to ignore it is to sacrifice reason and logic on the alter of bigotry, nationalism, racism and xenophobia.



I don't know who this "we" is, but I am European and I'm not part of it.

Has Canada sacrificed reason and logic on the altar on its immigration policy?
Is Canada's immigration policy populist?
Why, if a European politician advocates for a similar immigration policy are they demonised as populist - or worse?


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## odyssey06 (5 Mar 2018)

"italian election results: will brussels finally listen to the people"

In short, no. I don't think Brussels could survive such an encounter with reality, and they know it.


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## Purple (6 Mar 2018)

joe sod said:


> That has been the prevailing wisdom in europe, we cannot talk about migration into europe or illegal migration because of what happened in the second world war. Therefore anything got to do with these topics must be met with silence, that is what the mainstream parties in europe have been doing for years now and the populations have had enough of it. Silence is not a solution, the only parties prepared to talk about and address these issues are the so called "populist" parties. When we look at other western countries like Canada, Australia, Japan and USA you cannot wander into these countries as an illegal migrant, only europe sends out ships to "rescue" migrants in the sea and drops them in italy. For example Canada is lauded for its liberalist policies yet it has tight controls on migration including on refugees, there are strict criteria and they talk about numbers. Only in Europe has a blind eye been turned to this topic, we cannot talk about numbers, we cannot talk about deportation of illegal migrants. Italy has borne the brunt of this dishonesty and it has had enough




There are just over 500 million people living in the EU. 20 million of them were born in one EU country and live in another. 35 million of them were born outside the EU. In the UK 13% of the population were born outside the UK, 5% are from within the EU and 8% are from outside the UK. Irish and Americans make up a large chunk of that UK immigrant population. The average age of immigrants in the EU is under 30 and most of them work. The idea that they are the cause of national economic ills is utter nonsense and it is that notion, propagated by the ignorant and the racist, that is more of a danger to our culture than the odd Mosque or dark face.


The “immigration crisis” as it is laughably called concerns about a million people, 2 million tops. The vast majority of whom are educated moderate middle class people from what was the only first world Arab country, before we in the West destroyed it in a proxy war with Russia to remove our dependence on Russian gas. Even if half of them end up on welfare, and they won’t, that’s still less than one in 1000 of our total population. If you want to see what an immigration crisis looks like then go to Lebanon or Jordan or Kenya or Tanzania.


Blaming immigrants for economic woes is like blaming the deckchair attendant on the Titanic for the iceberg.


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## Purple (6 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Why, if a European politician advocates for a similar immigration policy are they demonised as populist - or worse?


If a European politician conflates economic issues, like they are in Italy, with immigration then they are being dishonest and populist as well as racist.
If you don't want Muslims or blacks or Jews or Johnny foreigner in your country then just be honest about it.


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## cremeegg (6 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> If you don't want Muslims or blacks or Jews or Johnny foreigner in your country then just be honest about it.



I have several concerns about Muslims. 

Those concerns may be misguided or based on my misapprehension of Islam but nonetheless they are real concerns for me.

I am concerned that Muslims do not believe in equality for women in the public sphere.

I am concerned that Muslims do not believe in Civil Rights for homosexuals.

I am concerned that Muslims do not wish their next generation especially women to integrate with broader society.

I would extend this concern about not wishing the next generation to integrate with broader society to other groups as well as Muslims.


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## odyssey06 (6 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Oh, and each country sets its own policy on emigration, not the EU.



No they don't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation

And this was a hot topic in the Italian election.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43209525


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## joe sod (6 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> The “immigration crisis” as it is laughably called concerns about a million people, 2 million tops. The vast majority of whom are educated moderate middle class people from what was the only first world Arab country, before we in the West destroyed it in a proxy war with Russia to remove our dependence on Russian gas.



With regard to syria yes i agree with you that they are refugees and have a valid claim on european asylum. However the vast majority of migrants arriving in italy from libya are not Syrians. The bulk of the migrants that entered germany since 2015 are not Syrians and are not skilled as they are still unemployed today. Should we be allowing big numbers of illegal unskilled migrants into europe that are not refugees, Canada does not do it , ditto for Japan and australia.


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

joe sod said:


> The bulk of the migrants that entered germany since 2015 are not Syrians


Agreed; the vast majority are European.



joe sod said:


> and are not skilled as they are still unemployed today.


 Have you anything to back that up?


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> No they don't.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation
Have you read your link?!
The Dublin Regulation enshrines in EU law that member states are responsible for determining the status of asylum seekers. It makes it clear that the country which the asylum seeker first entered is where they must make their application. 
Oh, and it deals with asylum seekers, not immigrants. 



odyssey06 said:


> And this was a hot topic in the Italian election..http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43209525


 It was a hot topic because, just like us, the Italians find it easier to blame someone else for their problems than accept their own culpability.


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## odyssey06 (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Have you read your link?!
> The Dublin Regulation enshrines in EU law that member states are responsible for determining the status of asylum seekers. It makes it clear that the country which the asylum seeker first entered is where they must make their application.
> Oh, and it deals with asylum seekers, not immigrants. It was a hot topic because, just like us, the Italians find it easier to blame someone else for their problems than accept their own culpability.



So all your earlier comments in this thread about immigration and the Italian election are thereby invalidated because in fact the topic in the Italian election was EU asylum law, of which you agree Italian law is subject to an EU law so they are not in total control of it?


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> So all your earlier comments in this thread about immigration and the Italian election are thereby invalidated because in fact the topic in the Italian election was EU asylum law, of which you agree Italian law is subject to an EU law so they are not in total control of it?


Again, have you read the link? Have you read my post?!
The EU convention states that the laws of the country where the immigrant entered the EU apply. Therefore immigrants who enter Italy are subject to Italian law and Italian law only. It is 100% up to the Italians whether they stay in Italy or not. It is a fabrication, a nonsense, a lie to suggest that EU immigration policy or law determines who or how many immigrants are allowed to stay in Italy or Ireland of Little-England.


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## odyssey06 (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Again, have you read the link? Have you read my post?!
> The EU convention states that the laws of the country where the immigrant entered the EU apply. Therefore immigrants who enter Italy are subject to Italian law and Italian law only. It is 100% up to the Italians whether they stay in Italy or not. It is a fabrication, a nonsense, a lie to suggest that EU immigration policy or law determines who or how many immigrants are allowed to stay in Italy or Ireland of Little-England.



Of course it does, at a minimum, it means asylum seekers reaching the EU whose first port of call is Italy, make their application to Italy.
That is EU law.
It is nonsensical to suggest this has no determining factor in how many immigrants\asylum seekers stay in a particular EU country.

All member state law in this area is subject to EU courts. To suggest that it is 100% up to Italians is untrue, when EU courts have several times overruled member state law.
"_The CEAS is composed of a number of directives and regulations that require action by the EU Member States or are directly applicable within their national legal systems.  The European Commission follows closely the full and correct implementation of CEAS and has adopted many decisions related to the application of asylum rules._.. _The ECHR has held against several Member States for violating the EU’s legal regime on refugees on issues of detention, status of reception facilities, and lack of legal remedies."_
[broken link removed]


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## Sunny (7 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Of course it does, at a minimum, it means asylum seekers reaching the EU whose first port of call is Italy, make their application to Italy.
> That is EU law.
> It is nonsensical to suggest this has no determining factor in how many immigrants\asylum seekers stay in a particular EU country.
> 
> ...



Is your issue with refugees or economic migrants? All the above covers is refugees who are protected by the Geneva convention. Even the link you posted above from the BBC talks about migrants so you seem to be talking about two different things. They are not the same.


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Of course it does, at a minimum, it means asylum seekers reaching the EU whose first port of call is Italy, make their application to Italy.
> That is EU law.
> It is nonsensical to suggest this has no determining factor in how many immigrants\asylum seekers stay in a particular EU country.


So you are saying that the EU law stating that the Italian government and Italian law is the sole determiner of who and how many asylum seekers stay in Italy somehow limits Italy's ability to determine who and how many asylum seekers stay in Italy. Grand so. 

The Dublin Conventions (1 and 2) deal with asylum seekers, not immigrants. 
The total number of asylum seekers in the EU in 2016 was 1.3 million. The number of first time applicants between 2014 and 2015 was 694 thousand. [broken link removed]


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

The core point in all of this is that populist and racist politicians across the EU are blaming a tiny minority of asylum seekers for broader social and economic problems. There is absolutely no basis for this in fact.


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## odyssey06 (7 Mar 2018)

Sunny said:


> Is your issue with refugees or economic migrants? All the above covers is refugees who are protected by the Geneva convention. Even the link you posted above from the BBC talks about migrants so you seem to be talking about two different things. They are not the same.



Everything I have said is in the context of the Italian elections. Are the hundreds of thousands of people arriving in Italy refugees or economic migrants? If an economic migrant arrives at an Italian port and claims asylum, Italy under EU law must treat them as a refugee. Which is why Italy is seeking changes to EU law governing refugee \ asylum.


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## odyssey06 (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> So you are saying that the EU law stating that the Italian government and Italian law is the sole determiner of who and how many asylum seekers stay in Italy somehow limits Italy's ability to determine who and how many asylum seekers stay in Italy. Grand so.



No, and anyone who thinks that doesn't know what they are talking about when Italian law is subject to EU law.


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

cremeegg said:


> I have several concerns about Muslims.
> 
> Those concerns may be misguided or based on my misapprehension of Islam but nonetheless they are real concerns for me.
> 
> ...


You have to distinguish between conservative and more secularised Muslims. 
I agree that many of the values of conservative Muslims are incompatible with our more liberal secular culture.


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## Sunny (7 Mar 2018)

cremeegg said:


> I have several concerns about Muslims.
> 
> Those concerns may be misguided or based on my misapprehension of Islam but nonetheless they are real concerns for me.
> 
> ...



I am not knocking concerns. But I think a key word is missing. 'SOME' muslims believe the above. Muslim women have risen to power in countries like Pakistan. (The US or Ireland still hasn't voted for a female leader). Some of the top scholars are muslim women.

I don't think anyone would argue that there isn't a lot of work to be done with regard to attitudes around homosexuality but even the liberal West non-muslims have struggled with this. Look at how divisive, the recent debate in Australia was. The Catholic church has barely changed their views so am not going to condemn another religion when my own is so behind the times.


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## odyssey06 (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> The core point in all of this is that populist and racist politicians across the EU are blaming a tiny minority of asylum seekers for broader social and economic problems. There is absolutely no basis for this in fact.



Please find me one major Italian party who lay the majority of the blame for Italy's social and economic problems at the hands of asylum seekers. 
If that was the case why was 'austerity' and the euro also a hot topic in the election?


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Everything I have said is in the context of the Italian elections. Are the hundreds of thousands of people arriving in Italy refugees or economic migrants?


 160,000 arrived in 2016, 116,000 arrived in 2017. That's a reduction of about one third. It's a problem but it has nothing to do with Italy's debt or stagnant economy.



odyssey06 said:


> If an economic migrant arrives at an Italian port and claims asylum, Italy under EU law must treat them as a refugee. Which is why Italy is seeking changes to EU law governing refugee \ asylum.


 No, under EU law Italy and Italian law determines if they are a refugee or an economic immigrant. Once that happens the Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees kicks in.


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

Sunny said:


> All the above covers is refugees who are protected by the Geneva convention.


Exactly. Italy, just like Ireland, have signed up to the 1951 Geneva Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and later protocols.


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## Delboy (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Have you anything to back that up?


*Most refugees to be jobless for years, German minister warns*
Prediction of long-term unemployment as hopes fade of boost to workforce skills
https://www.ft.com/content/022de0a4-54f4-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f


> Up to three quarters of Germany’s refugees will still be unemployed in five years’ time, according to a government minister, in a stark admission of the challenges the country faces in integrating its huge migrant population. Aydan Özoğuz, commissioner for immigration, refugees and integration, told the Financial Times that only a quarter to a third of the newcomers would enter the labour market over the next five years, and “for many others we will need up to 10”.



I think it's deliberately misinterpreting the OP to say that Italians are laying all the blame for their country's problems on immigration. And I don't think it's fair to say that all populist parties are working solely off that mantra either.
Be that in Italy or other European countries that have moved to the right.

Immigration is a real concern for many and it's a valid concern. Dismissing it as populist, possibly racist or just being overly fearful is exactly what Brussels and Govt's throughout Western Europe have being doing for the past 20 years. And where are we now?
I don't want to see extreme right wing parties getting closer to power but if the Eu continues on it's current path, they are playing directly into the hands of those parties.

What has being going on in the Med for the past few years is nothing short of a ferry service. 'Build it' and they will come.
What Merkel did a few years ago in opening Germany's border and therefore the EU's, was high reckless and has created a political crisis throughout the EU. It was an open invitation to one and all to walk on into Europe unopposed and visa free. Syrians barely made up half of those that came in that 1.5m exodus in 2015/16.

Immigration is a problem for many whether the more liberal want to admit it or not. We either deal with it now and in a coherent manner that most people will agree with or we continue to allow the far right to grow.


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

Delboy said:


> *Most refugees to be jobless for years, German minister warns*
> Prediction of long-term unemployment as hopes fade of boost to workforce skills
> https://www.ft.com/content/022de0a4-54f4-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f



It's behind a pay-wall so i can't read it but does it distinguish between working age refugees and children? Does it clarify if the 5 years will be due to delays in processing their applications?




Delboy said:


> I think it's deliberately misinterpreting the OP to say that Italians are laying all the blame for their country's problems on immigration. And I don't think it's fair to say that all populist parties are working solely off that mantra either.
> Be that in Italy or other European countries that have moved to the right.


The populist parties in Italy, and elsewhere, are conflating numerous issues, including immigration, and offering them up as the cause of their countries ills. Immigration has nothing to do with the economic problems facing Italy. It has nothing to do with the problems facing Greece. I haven't suggested that they are working solely off the mantra that immigrants are the source of their countries economic ills.



Delboy said:


> Immigration is a real concern for many and it's a valid concern. Dismissing it as populist, possibly racist or just being overly fearful is exactly what Brussels and Govt's throughout Western Europe have being doing for the past 20 years. And where are we now?


 The Dublin accord gave power to individual countries to set their own immigration policies. The agreement with Turkey to warehouse the refugees from Syria etc has greatly reduced the flow. What else do you suggest should be done? We could stick a few 50mm machine guns ion the ships we send to the Med and just sink the boats and dinghies coming from Libya etc. Would that help? What, exactly, should the EU do to stop the flow of refugees ending up in Italy and Greece?
The reason they do end up in Italy is because Italy, rightly in my opinion, lets them in rather than let them die. Their neighbours, also in the EU, don't let any of them in. That is because each EU country can and does set its own immigration policy. Having said that the flow of refugees to Italy in the second half of 2017 was down by 70% on the same period in 2016.



Delboy said:


> I don't want to see extreme right wing parties getting closer to power but if the Eu continues on it's current path, they are playing directly into the hands of those parties.


 What path? What, specifically, is the EU doing that it should do differently?



Delboy said:


> What has being going on in the Med for the past few years is nothing short of a ferry service. 'Build it' and they will come.


 I think it was more a case of blow up their country and they'll leave.



Delboy said:


> What Merkel did a few years ago in opening Germany's border and therefore the EU's, was high reckless and has created a political crisis throughout the EU. It was an open invitation to one and all to walk on into Europe unopposed and visa free. Syrians barely made up half of those that came in that 1.5m exodus in 2015/16.


1.5 million into a population of 500 million. You're right, Jordan got away lightly; 750,000 out of a population of 10 million. 90% of them are Syrian. The per capita income of Jordan is just under $10,000. In the EU it's $35,000. So, we have 45 times fewer refugees per capita than them but three and a half times the income... but we have the crisis, right?




Delboy said:


> Immigration is a problem for many whether the more liberal want to admit it or not. We either deal with it now and in a coherent manner that most people will agree with or we continue to allow the far right to grow.


Are you talking about refugees or immigrants?

What we need is a real and factual conversation about our place in the world. That should include starting wars about gas pipelines and broader geo-politics as well as just how rich and insulated we are from what goes on in large parts of the rest of the world.

The real problem is that for once a little bit of the mess we helped to create landed on out doorstep.


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## Delboy (7 Mar 2018)

Exactly the type of post that is part of the problem around the debate on immigration...."50mm machine guns" , talk of a Dublin accord which effectively died the day Merkle opened the borders and then practically imposed quotas on other EU state, downplaying of the numbers coming in in any 1 year.

Like abortion, immigration debates quickly get down and dirty.


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## cremeegg (7 Mar 2018)

Sunny said:


> I don't think anyone would argue that there isn't a lot of work to be done with regard to attitudes around *homosexuality*



and in my opinion also with regard to attitudes around *women*, your points are well made but not imo comprehensive, and with regards to *integration*.

The issue is that little or nothing is being done about starting this work. Indeed many commentators suggest that such work should not be done.


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

Delboy said:


> Exactly the type of post that is part of the problem around the debate on immigration...."50mm machine guns" , talk of a Dublin accord which effectively died the day Merkle opened the borders and then practically imposed quotas on other EU state, downplaying of the numbers coming in in any 1 year.


That's just selective nit-picking devoid of any facts or policies. 
The Dublin Accord is the EU law, the repeal of which the 5Star movement have made a central part of their campaign. Merkle didn't open the borders, that's just emotive nonsense. She didn't impose quotas on other EU states, literally or practically. She asked and most countries said no.

Can you answer any of the questions I asked?


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## cremeegg (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> The core point in all of this is that populist and racist politicians across the EU are blaming a tiny minority of asylum seekers for broader social and economic problems. There is absolutely no basis for this in fact.



The core point is that Europe is circumscribed by countries for whose inhabitants our standard of living is unimaginably high. The opportunities available to our children are far beyond anything available to theirs.

People see our level of material achievement and understandably they want that for themselves. Unfortunately their education systems and culture prevent them for the most part from being able to contribute significantly to building that material achievement. It is no coincidence that attitudes toward women in public life changed as we built our current prosperity.

Many Europeans worry that the difference in living standards across the Mediterranean will cause problems for a long time to come. They do not see the political system as having anything meaningful to say in response to this situation. EU support for industrialisation in Morocco is perhaps the one positive initiate in this situation. But that is more an exception than a norm.


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## Sunny (7 Mar 2018)

Delboy said:


> Exactly the type of post that is part of the problem around the debate on immigration...."50mm machine guns" , talk of a Dublin accord which effectively died the day Merkle opened the borders and then practically imposed quotas on other EU state, downplaying of the numbers coming in in any 1 year.
> 
> Like abortion, immigration debates quickly get down and dirty.



You called the rescue missions a Ferry Service.

Someone else said _'only europe sends out ships to "rescue" migrants in the sea and drops them in italy' _

Amazing how quickly everyone forgets about the picture of the young boy in the red shirt. Do you think his parents valued his life less than we value our childrens that they would risk him travelling by sea like this simply to earn a few euro. Are we really going to just let bodies get washed up on our coastlines and not care? Are we really saying we would rather let them drown or return them a place to Syria that they were so desperate to escape that they risked their childrens lives to escape?

Nobody is saying there should be an open door policy to immigration but look at what happened when the new states all got access to the EU. All these scare stories. How we would be taken over by the Poles and Romanians. Its the same now.


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## Sunny (7 Mar 2018)

Delboy said:


> Exactly the type of post that is part of the problem around the debate on immigration...."50mm machine guns" , talk of a Dublin accord which effectively died the day Merkle opened the borders and then practically imposed quotas on other EU state, downplaying of the numbers coming in in any 1 year.
> 
> Like abortion, immigration debates quickly get down and dirty.



You called the rescue missions a Ferry Service.

Someone else said _'only europe sends out ships to "rescue" migrants in the sea and drops them in italy' _like it is a Sunday sail in Dublin Bay that has gone wrong.

They are equally as bad.

Amazing how quickly everyone forgets about the picture of the young boy in the red shirt. Do you think his parents valued his life less than we value our childrens that they would risk him travelling by sea like this. Are we really going to just let bodies get washed up on our coastlines and not care? Are we really saying we would rather let them drown or return them a place to Syria that they were so desperate to escape that they risked their childrens lives to escape?

Nobody is saying there should be an open door policy to immigration but look at what happened when the new states all got access to the EU. All these scare stories. How we would be taken over by the Poles and Romanians. Has our society


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

cremeegg said:


> The core point is that Europe is circumscribed by countries for whose inhabitants our standard of living is unimaginably high. The opportunities available to our children are far beyond anything available to theirs.


That's part of the problem alright but it isn't the core problem. I don't think there is one core problem. 



cremeegg said:


> People see our level of material achievement and understandably they want that for themselves. Unfortunately their education systems and culture prevent them for the most part from being able to contribute significantly to building that material achievement. It is no coincidence that attitudes toward women in public life changed as we built our current prosperity.


 Do you really think that the main reason we are richer is that "their education systems and culture prevent them for the most part from being able to contribute significantly to building that material achievement". Do you think that our protectionist economic policies, historical and current political and military interference in their countries and regions have nothing to do with it? Read, well, any book on the history of the Middle East in the last 100 years, but particularly the period between 1918 and the 1960's and come back to me. The suppression of Arab nationalism, the undermining of the Hashemites in Arabia and the support for a savage, barbaric fundamentalist tribe in order to create a client state of the British (and later the Americans) etc etc. To put it all down to their religion, culture and nature is to ignore history.  



cremeegg said:


> Many Europeans worry that the difference in living standards across the Mediterranean will cause problems for a long time to come.


 And rightly so. Why don't we start with not starting wars there? That should help. 



cremeegg said:


> They do not see the political system as having anything meaningful to say in response to this situation.


 They do not see the political system offering easy answers. The reason for that is that there are no easy answers. The populists always trade on simplistic easy answers, just like the anti-reality alliance here (or whatever they call themselves now). 



cremeegg said:


> EU support for industrialisation in Morocco is perhaps the one positive initiate in this situation. But that is more an exception than a norm.


 There are plenty of good things being done but there are plenty of bad things as well. Supporting relatively moderate countries such as Iran and opposing extremist countries which support terrorism and spend vast sums of money funding extremism in Europe (Saudi Arabia) would be a good start.


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## Delboy (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> That's just selective nit-picking devoid of any facts or policies.
> The Dublin Accord is the EU law, the repeal of which the 5Star movement have made a central part of their campaign. Merkle didn't open the borders, that's just emotive nonsense. She didn't impose quotas on other EU states, literally or practically. She asked and most countries said no.
> 
> Can you answer any of the questions I asked?


Nit picking and devoid of facts ...exactly what I was thinking reading your contributions thus far.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41172638


> The EU's top court has rejected a challenge by Hungary and Slovakia to a migrant relocation deal drawn up at the height of the crisis in 2015.
> The European Court of Justice overruled their objections to the *compulsory fixed-quota scheme*.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis


> Late on 4 September 2015, Chancellor Werner Faymann of Austria, in conjunction with Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany, announced that migrants would be allowed to cross the border from Hungary into Austria and onward to Germany



And with regards to your earlier post and the FT article I posed...if you really wanted, you could find that article.
But your a smart guy Purple...do you honestly believe that 1 of the reasons for high unemployment is because of delays in process applications? Or if you actually thought about it, is it more likely to do with lack of skills and educational qualifications. Or do you believe the myth that it was mostly Doctors and Engineers who arrived into Europe???

You reference Jordan and the number of people having to go there. It's a neighbour of Syria, thats what happens in war. It costs a fraction in euro terms to educate/house/provide health care to displaced persons in Jordan/Lebanon v's what it does in Europe. Norway produced a very good study on this.
Foreign aid should have been pumped into those camps to provide the basic needs though I don't think that would have stopped the flows once word got out that Europe was open.
The people coming to Europe through the Balkans had crossed through at last 2 safe countries before heading into Greece.

All the ferries in the Med have done is encourage migration, first into Libya and then on to Europe. This has then contributed massively to the result we have just seen in Italy just like migration through the Balkan route has done the same in Austria and to a lesser but still significant degree in Germany. It will lead to right wing parties getting stronger in Sweden and other countries will follow. It has made Hungary, Cezh and Poland near pariah states within the EU.

And all this talk (note, there has been no debate) of Ireland 2040 and another 1m in the state, around 50% of whom will be new migrants (and Govt figures on migrants are always hopelessly under estimated )....well, don't be surprised if there is a far right party here by then also.

Europe has in part created this crisis and even encouraged aspects of it at the elite levels. Don't be surprised when the voters bite back whether you believe their views to be a correct interpretation or not.


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## Delboy (7 Mar 2018)

Sunny said:


> Amazing how quickly everyone forgets about the picture of the young boy in the red shirt. Do you think his parents valued his life less than we value our childrens that they would risk him travelling by sea like this. Are we really going to just let bodies get washed up on our coastlines and not care? Are we really saying we would rather let them drown or return them a place to Syria that they were so desperate to escape that they risked their childrens lives to escape?
> 
> *Nobody is saying there should be an open door policy to immigration* but look at what happened when the new states all got access to the EU. All these scare stories. How we would be taken over by the Poles and Romanians. Has our society


You are saying exactly that!
That poor boy who drowned (along with most of his family) was making a very dangerous crossing from a safe country (Turkey) into the EU illegally. They were doing this because they knew they would never get a VISA and because once in the EU by any means, you are there forever. 
There are reports that it was his father who drove the boat and he was questioned by authorities about that!


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

Delboy said:


> Nit picking and devoid of facts ...exactly what I was thinking reading your contributions thus far.


 I've gone into considerable detail and asked you specific questions, none of which you have even attempted to answer. 



Delboy said:


> And with regards to your earlier post and the FT article I posed...if you really wanted, you could find that article.


 Ok, so I should illegally view content that's behind a pay-wall? No, just like I don't steal TV content and Movies through illegal downloads. 



Delboy said:


> But your a smart guy Purple...do you honestly believe that 1 of the reasons for high unemployment is because of delays in process applications? Or if you actually thought about it, is it more likely to do with lack of skills and educational qualifications. Or do you believe the myth that it was mostly Doctors and Engineers who arrived into Europe???


 Total strawman argument. Who here, or anywhere, suggested that it was mostly Doctors and Engineers who arrived into Europe?



Delboy said:


> You reference Jordan and the number of people having to go there. It's a neighbour of Syria, thats what happens in war. It costs a fraction in euro terms to educate/house/provide health care to displaced persons in Jordan/Lebanon v's what it does in Europe. Norway produced a very good study on this.
> Foreign aid should have been pumped into those camps to provide the basic needs though I don't think that would have stopped the flows once word got out that Europe was open.


Okay, so pay someone else to deal with it but don't let the darkies into our back yard. 



Delboy said:


> The people coming to Europe through the Balkans had crossed through at last 2 safe countries before heading into Greece.


 Yes, and the Dublin Protocols mean that those people should be returned to their post of first entry. The EU is trying to prevent that happening but individual EU countries, in this case Greece, Bulgaria, Croatia and Slovenia, are ignoring EU law. 



Delboy said:


> All the ferries in the Med have done is encourage migration, first into Libya and then on to Europe. This has then contributed massively to the result we have just seen in Italy just like migration through the Balkan route has done the same in Austria and to a lesser but still significant degree in Germany. It will lead to right wing parties getting stronger in Sweden and other countries will follow. It has made Hungary, Cezh and Poland near pariah states within the EU.


 There you go again with the ferries. We are talking about a tiny minority of people. They may be used as an excuse as a justification for the rise of far right parties but history shows us that they are good at picking on minorities. 



Delboy said:


> And all this talk (note, there has been no debate) of Ireland 2040 and another 1m in the state, around 50% of whom will be new migrants (and Govt figures on migrants are always hopelessly under estimated )....well, don't be surprised if there is a far right party here by then also.


 People born in the EU, UK, USA, Australia and Canada make up around 90% of our immigrants. The rest of the world make up the balance. That includes China, India etc. Which of those places should we ban? 



Delboy said:


> Europe has in part created this crisis and even encouraged aspects of it at the elite levels. Don't be surprised when the voters bite back whether you believe their views to be a correct interpretation or not.


 Can you back that up with anything?


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

Delboy said:


> That poor boy who drowned (along with most of his family) was making a very dangerous crossing from a safe country (Turkey) into the EU illegally. They were doing this because they knew they would never get a VISA and because once in the EU by any means, you are there forever.


 Why were people from one of the richest, freest and most secular countries in the middle east trying to get to Europe?  



Delboy said:


> There are reports that it was his father who drove the boat and he was questioned by authorities about that!


 What reports?


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

Just to bring this back to the Original Post;


joe sod said:


> The main reason of course for the election results is unchecked immigration into italy which the mainstream parties throughout europe refuse to talk about or deal with honestly.



I'll ask again; what, specifically, should the EU do which it is currently not doing and not do which it is currently doing to stop people trying to get to Europe from war-torn parts of the world?


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## Delboy (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Why were people from one of the richest, freest and most secular countries in the middle east trying to get to Europe?
> 
> What reports?


People who claim to have been in the boat when it overturned. Turkish police took him in for questioning. 
It's not exactly a secret or an item that wasn't covered in the media


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

Delboy said:


> People who claim to have been in the boat when it overturned. Turkish police took him in for questioning.
> It's not exactly a secret or an item that wasn't covered in the media


Can you post a link please?

Oh, and _Why were people from one of the richest, freest and most secular countries in the middle east trying to get to Europe? _

Oh, and _I'll ask again; what, specifically, should the EU do which it is currently not doing and not do which it is currently doing to stop people trying to get to Europe from war-torn parts of the world?_


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## Delboy (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> I've gone into considerable detail and asked you specific questions, none of which you have even attempted to answer.
> 
> Ok, so I should illegally view content that's behind a pay-wall? No, just like I don't steal TV content and Movies through illegal downloads.
> 
> ...


Absolutely impossible to debate a subject like this with someone who takes it very personally and ignores anything that doesn't suit their agenda.

I mean, talk of 'stealing content' . I googled the subject earlier, found the FT link at the top of the page and went in and read the article. No black magic involved. But if that's where this is at, enjoy the rest of the discussion with yourself.


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## Sunny (7 Mar 2018)

Delboy said:


> You are saying exactly that!
> That poor boy who drowned (along with most of his family) was making a very dangerous crossing from a safe country (Turkey) into the EU illegally. They were doing this because they knew they would never get a VISA and because once in the EU by any means, you are there forever.
> There are reports that it was his father who drove the boat and he was questioned by authorities about that!



No I am not. Where I am saying that? I am sorry but hundreds of people have lost their lives crossing the sea and you seem to think that the EU should just risk them drowning rather than provide 'Ferries'. What was the phrase you used? Build it and they will come??? Do you think the parents of children taking that journey value the life of their child less than you do that they would undertake that journey to chase a few euro? Would you do it unless you were completely desperate? Just because I have sympathy and understanding for the plight doesn't mean I believe that we should allow everyone in. I wish there was zero refugees and zero economic migration. 

But the problem is not going to be solved by letting people kill themselves trying to get in. Why not try and get rid of the reasons why so many people want to leave their homes and risk their children's lives in the first place? How about we talk about EU and western foreign policy? The role of Russia and China. The supply of weapons by our Governments to poor countries and countries run by dubious regimes. The restrictive trade policies of western world that keep developing countries down. The inadequacy and in some cases corruption of organistions like the UN and so called aid agencies. The implicit support of corrupt regimes by large western corporations. Child Labour. Sweat shops producing our goods as cheaply as possibly.


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## Purple (7 Mar 2018)

Delboy said:


> Absolutely impossible to debate a subject like this with someone who takes it very personally and ignores anything that doesn't suit their agenda.


Okay, so I take it from that you can't/won't answer any specific questions. 
If so at least admit it. A debate involves answering questions. 

By the way, this in the internet. Nothing said here is personal.


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## odyssey06 (7 Mar 2018)

Sunny said:


> But the problem is not going to be solved by letting people kill themselves trying to get in. Why not try and get rid of the reasons why so many people want to leave their homes and risk their children's lives in the first place? How about we talk about EU and western foreign policy? The role of Russia and China. The supply of weapons by our Governments to poor countries and countries run by dubious regimes. The restrictive trade policies of western world that keep developing countries down. The inadequacy and in some cases corruption of organistions like the UN and so called aid agencies. The implicit support of corrupt regimes by large western corporations. Child Labour. Sweat shops producing our goods as cheaply as possibly.



The thing is, even if we assume the problem can only really be solved by tackling the deeper issues you touch upon, do you think that the mainstream Italian parties were talking about any of those things?
Do you think any of your suggestions would be advanced by the 'status quo' non populist Italian parties... whose mantra seems to be, ignore any complaints about immigration, continue the same failing economic policies...

So, for the average Italian voter, I can completely understand why, given the alternatives presented to them in 2018, they turned away from the busted mainstream and moved towards 'populism', and I utterly reject the notion being circulated around the Western World that populism = racism. If it is, Europe & America may as well give up now trying to hold back its tide because given the number of people voting for populist parties and propositions it would imply a critical mass of racism has been reached in US, UK, Australia, Germany, France, Austria, Italy, Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary, Slovakia... and Ireland, given that 80% of Irish voters, in a populist referendum, voted in favour of narrowing citizenship rights.


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## joe sod (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> The core point in all of this is that populist and racist politicians across the EU are blaming a tiny minority of asylum seekers for broader social and economic problems. There is absolutely no basis for this in fact.



It is comments like this that have been used to shut down debates on immigration for years now. Just because you highlight the valid issues got to do with immigration into europe does not make you a racist. It is a valid issue that is affecting people and it should be voiced by politicians if they are doing their jobs properly. The reason why this issue has been met with silence especially in countries like ireland is fear of being branded racist or right wing. Italy has had its economic problems and the popular misrepresentation is that they are blaming their economic problems on migrants, this is false. The UK has had a very strong economy albeit before the brexit vote but they still voted for brexit with  immigration being the key issue. I think immigration is healthy but must be controlled and numbers must be discussed . Again using Canada as an example it is regarded as an open and welcoming country and their is little racism. Why is this because they have strict controls on immigrants with yearly quotas on how many migrants can enter per year. Therefore the canadian people do not feel threatened by immigration.


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## cremeegg (7 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Do you really think that the main reason we are richer is that "their education systems and culture prevent them for the most part from being able to contribute significantly to building that material achievement".



Yes I really think that.

While I don't think that there can be any evidence produced either way I do have an anecdote which I think supports my view. The father of a school friend was the HR manager in one of the first FDI factories in Ireland. The factory employed over a thousand people in a production environment. It was notorious for strikes. There were newspaper articles about future investment being endangered because of this. The HR manager had the opinion that Irish workers from a farming background were culturally unsuited to factory work. They had no culture of accepting direction from a boss. So I think it is reasonable to believe that culture has a huge role in economic progress.





Purple said:


> Do you think that our protectionist economic policies, historical and current political and military interference in their countries and regions have nothing to do with it?



Not "nothing" but very little. Although I believe that protectionism is wrong, it hinders their economies and ours.

The people of the Middle East are responsible for their own destiny, they are not children to be protected from their own choices. (as an aside neither are the Brits, and boy are they going to find out about that).

The Ottoman Empire kept the Middle East in the Middle ages up until the early 20th century. It is not anyone else's fault that their societies did not develop politically. Nor is it any outsiders fault that the people of the middle east were unable to make any political progress from the Arab Spring.


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## odyssey06 (8 Mar 2018)

cremeegg said:


> The Ottoman Empire kept the Middle East in the Middle ages up until the early 20th century. It is not anyone else's fault that their societies did not develop politically. Nor is it any outsiders fault that the people of the middle east were unable to make any political progress from the Arab Spring.



The corollary of this is that if Middle Eastern & North African countries are not ready for 21st century liberal democracy at home, it is is entirely valid to have concerns about how large numbers of individuals from those countries might be integrated successfully into Western countries - an entirely different scenario to migrations between say Ireland - UK - Australia.


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## Purple (8 Mar 2018)

cremeegg said:


> Yes I really think that.
> 
> While I don't think that there can be any evidence produced either way I do have an anecdote which I think supports my view. The father of a school friend was the HR manager in one of the first FDI factories in Ireland. The factory employed over a thousand people in a production environment. It was notorious for strikes. There were newspaper articles about future investment being endangered because of this. The HR manager had the opinion that Irish workers from a farming background were culturally unsuited to factory work. They had no culture of accepting direction from a boss. So I think it is reasonable to believe that culture has a huge role in economic progress.


 I work in a manufacturing environment and we always like getting guys from a farming background because we find that they generally have a good work ethic. Maybe your friends father just wasn't very good at his job.







cremeegg said:


> Not "nothing" but very little. Although I believe that protectionism is wrong, it hinders their economies and ours.
> 
> The people of the Middle East are responsible for their own destiny, they are not children to be protected from their own choices. (as an aside neither are the Brits, and boy are they going to find out about that).
> 
> The Ottoman Empire kept the Middle East in the Middle ages up until the early 20th century. It is not anyone else's fault that their societies did not develop politically. Nor is it any outsiders fault that the people of the middle east were unable to make any political progress from the Arab Spring.


 That shows a complete ignorance of the history of the region. Did you know that the first independent Kingdom in Arabia as the Ottoman Empire declined was a moderate Hashimite one? They had a representative parliament and gave women the same sort of rights they had in Europe at the time. Their women went to school and college. The problem was that the Hashimites, who are descendants of the Profit Mohammed and had the strongest political, historic and cultural claim over the region, were also political and were interested in Pan-Arab Nationalism. That means they would not be easy to control. Therefore the extremist Wahhabi Tribe was armed and trained and supported in an incredibly bloody conquest of the region in which hundreds of thousands of people were killed and maimed. They were then put in charge by the British and kept in place by the Americans, plunging the region back into the Middle Ages. Now, tell me again how it's nothing to do with us and they have always been backward.

Syria was a relatively moderate, wealthy and free country by the standards of the region.  In order to remove the reliance by Europe on Russian gas, the main source of hard cash income Russia has, we (the West) tried to force a pipeline from the Gulf through Syria. Syria was supported by Russia and so was between a rock and a hard place so said no. We then started a war to change the government and get the pipeline built. That war has killed up to a half a million people and plunged the country into anarchy. It also caused the refugee crisis in the region and the refugee inconvenience in Europe as well as allowing ISIS etc to flourish. Now, tell me again how it's nothing to do with us and they have always been backward.

I could go on but I won't both, though I suggest you google a bit on Yemen and what's happened to it since the British decided they wanted a coaling depot in the region to get to India and how British weapons are being used to murder children there by the Saudis, all that while the Saudi Crown Prince is in the UK having his ring kissed by Teresa and Lizzie.


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## Purple (8 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> The corollary of this is that if Middle Eastern & North African countries are not ready for 21st century liberal democracy at home, it is is entirely valid to have concerns about how large numbers of individuals from those countries might be integrated successfully into Western countries - an entirely different scenario to migrations between say Ireland - UK - Australia.


We could start by not trying to overthrow their democratically elected governments.
We could also try not starting wars in their countries.
We did it when they were colonies, we did it when they stopped being colonies and we haven't stopped since.

The idea that they are free agents with every chance to be free and democratic, if only they could just be like the white man (I'm paraphrasing), is, at best, incredibly ignorant.


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## odyssey06 (8 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> We could start by not trying to overthrow their democratically elected governments.
> We could also try not starting wars in their countries.
> We did it when they were colonies, we did it when they stopped being colonies and we haven't stopped since.



If anything, populist parties seem less keen on foreign misadventures than the alternatives...
I don't think the Western intervention in Syria can be laid at the door of populists? Though I think the Russian one could be, in the sense that Putin is a populist.

I could be wrong on this, but Western populist parties seem more keen on fortress Europe \ fortress America \ fortress Australia idea than going out into the world, whether for 'noble' or material motives. Maybe this comes across as them as being less 'caring' towards the rest of the world than mainstream parties, but I would also interpret it to mean, less likely to screw up another country. I can see a populist party cutting all foreign aid, for example. 

If you want the West to 'stop' doing the things you have mentioned, vote Populist!


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## Purple (8 Mar 2018)

The reason that the Arab Spring failed is that the region is religious and conservative and so it was inevitable that the well organised and popular Islamist movements such as the Muslim Brotherhood won popular elections. We in the West don't want to accept political Islam and so did everything we could to undermine it, and in doing so the democratic will of the people.


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## Purple (8 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> If anything, populist parties seem less keen on foreign misadventures than the alternatives...
> I don't think the Western intervention in Syria can be laid at the door of populists? Though I think the Russian one could be, in the sense that Putin is a populist.
> 
> I could be wrong on this, but Western populist parties seem more keen on fortress Europe \ fortress America \ fortress Australia idea than going out into the world, whether for 'noble' or material motives. Maybe this comes across as them as being less 'caring' towards the rest of the world than mainstream parties, but I would also interpret it to mean, less likely to screw up another country. I can see a populist party cutting all foreign aid, for example.
> ...


I agree that the populist parties are generally isolationist. My point is that it is nonsense to suggest that we in the West have not been instrumental in the creation of the current situation in the Middle East, Persia and North Africa.  
I won't vote populist because they conflate issues in order to lie to their supporters. In this country they are Solidarity and the Shinners and, to some extent, FF, who want more money spent but no taxes levied on their supporters. In Italy it's 5Star and other extremists who ignore unsustainable debt and welfare rates, cronyism and corruption, but blame "the Elite" who are only part of the problem and immigrants who are irrelevant in a national economic context. In the UK they are UKIP and the Tory Brexiteers who harken back to days of empire and would rather throw their lot in with the Saudis than the French.


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## odyssey06 (8 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> The reason that the Arab Spring failed is that the region is religious and conservative and so it was inevitable that the well organised and popular Islamist movements such as the Muslim Brotherhood won popular elections. We in the West don't want to accept political Islam and so did everything we could to undermine it, and in doing so the democratic will of the people.



Not entirely serious here... but that prompted a similar thought in me about the EU, the euro,  austerity and the Irish and southern european economies. The democratic will of the people would be to have the option to devalue rather than knuckle down to the euro & austerity.


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## joe sod (8 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> The reason that the Arab Spring failed is that the region is religious and conservative and so it was inevitable that the well organised and popular Islamist movements such as the Muslim Brotherhood won popular elections. We in the West don't want to accept political Islam and so did everything we could to undermine it, and in doing so the democratic will of the people.


 
Therefore by this you accept that the problems now mostly lie within the region itself, the failure of the Arab spring is not the fault of Europe. With regard to European colonialism that is over effectively a century ago. I think we are doing these countries a disservice by telling them that everything is the fault of colonialism and stopping them from looking at what is wrong internally in their own countries. After all China was colonized to an extent and Japan was destroyed in the second world war, yet these countries still went on to become the Asian tiger economies. So there is something different going on in middle east that is not got to do with colonial history and that's where they need to focus. Bill gates has said that it is a mistake for Europe to continue to take in economic migrants from Africa as it basically stops these people looking to change their own countries, their main focus now is how do I get to Europe


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## Purple (8 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Not entirely serious here... but that prompted a similar thought in me about the EU, the euro,  austerity and the Irish and southern european economies. The democratic will of the people would be to have the option to devalue rather than knuckle down to the euro & austerity.


All the talk of austerity while we continued to borrow far more than we earned in order to sustain a lifestyle we couldn't really afford. Some knuckling down that was!


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## Purple (8 Mar 2018)

joe sod said:


> Therefore by this you accept that the problems now mostly lie within the region itself, the failure of the Arab spring is not the fault of Europe. With regard to European colonialism that is over effectively a century ago. I think we are doing these countries a disservice by telling them that everything is the fault of colonialism and stopping them from looking at what is wrong internally in their own countries. After all China was colonized to an extent and Japan was destroyed in the second world war, yet these countries still went on to become the Asian tiger economies. So there is something different going on in middle east that is not got to do with colonial history and that's where they need to focus. Bill gates has said that it is a mistake for Europe to continue to take in economic migrants from Africa as it basically stops these people looking to change their own countries, their main focus now is how do I get to Europe


Read post #52


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## odyssey06 (8 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> All the talk of austerity while we continued to borrow far more than we earned in order to sustain a lifestyle we couldn't really afford. Some knuckling down that was!



Well eh that kinda proves my point. It's as unrealistic to expect Egyptians to vote like the French, as it is to expect all of Europe to act like Germans... and the Italian vote for populism should be seen in that light. I think the limits of EU integration were pushed too far, and this vote in part is a reaction against that. As is Brexit and the Visregad group.


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## joe sod (8 Mar 2018)

I did read your post and you do know the history of this region better than I do. But with regard to colonialism , it works both ways, after all the ottomans did colonize the Balkans and southern Europe. Anyway I think colonialism is a distraction because how long do we continue with this excuse, another century. I think there needs to be change within the region and I think it is actually starting. I think Saudi Arabia is moving away from religious fundamentalism now, I think they see the writing on the wall , they cannot continue as a modern country and harbour fundamentalists.


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## Ceist Beag (8 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Syria was a relatively moderate, wealthy and free country by the standards of the region. In order to remove the reliance by Europe on Russian gas, the main source of hard cash income Russia has, we (the West) tried to force a pipeline from the Gulf through Syria. Syria was supported by Russia and so was between a rock and a hard place so said no. We then started a war to change the government and get the pipeline built.



Purple you're clearly well read on the history in this area so I completely defer to your knowledge here, and I completely accept your point that the west has a large hand in the many wars around the world, but it looks this particular point isn't quite true - at least according to truth-out which seems to make a logical and coherent argument as to why they believe it is not true. That's not saying the US had any legitimate reason to get involved, it's just that their reason for get involved may not be related to the gas line as you suggested.


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## Purple (8 Mar 2018)

joe sod said:


> I did read your post and you do know the history of this region better than I do. But with regard to colonialism , it works both ways, after all the ottomans did colonize the Balkans and southern Europe.


 They did indeed. The Russians took Crimea from them around the same time America fought it's war of independence, hence their legitimate claim that it is Russian and not part of Ukraine.



joe sod said:


> Anyway I think colonialism is a distraction because how long do we continue with this excuse, another century. I think there needs to be change within the region and I think it is actually starting. I think Saudi Arabia is moving away from religious fundamentalism now, I think they see the writing on the wall , they cannot continue as a modern country and harbour fundamentalists.


 I hope you are right but I doubt it. Colonialism was about economic control and gain. You don't need to have the same level of direct control in the modern world, you just need client government. Client governments may be of the people but they cannot be by the people or for the people.


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## Purple (8 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Well eh that kinda proves my point. It's as unrealistic to expect Egyptians to vote like the French, as it is to expect all of Europe to act like Germans... and the Italian vote for populism should be seen in that light. I think the limits of EU integration were pushed too far, and this vote in part is a reaction against that. As is Brexit and the Visregad group.


I don't see the connection and nobody in the EU or Germany is looking for us all to be like Germany.


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## TheBigShort (8 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> That shows a complete ignorance of the history of the region.



I'm in complete agreement here.



Delboy said:


> They were doing this because they knew they would never get a VISA and because once in the EU by any means, you are there forever.



No they weren't, they were fleeing a worn torn region. It may have escape your notice but the immigration 'crisis' started not long after the war in Syria.
If what you say is correct, why wasn't there a immigrant crisis before the war? Why have there not been mass boat crossings before the outbreak of war if what they wanted was simply to get into Europe without a visa?



cremeegg said:


> The people of the Middle East are responsible for their own destiny, they are not children to be protected from their own choices



But would it be ok to protect their children from warfare?



cremeegg said:


> Nor is it any outsiders fault that the people of the middle east were unable to make any political progress from the Arab Spring.



The Arab 'Spring' was a mixed bag of affiliates protesting state corruption and mistreatment, labour conditions, food prices, unemployment and other social and economic conditions.
Western media likened to laud over the protests as a genuine, holistic move by the people for democracy and freedom. It wasn't - in the main, food prices were inflating way over what wages were paying.



odyssey06 said:


> The corollary of this is that if Middle Eastern & North African countries are not ready for 21st century liberal democracy at home, it is is entirely valid to have concerns about how large numbers of individuals from those countries might be *integrated successfully into Western countries* - an entirely different scenario to migrations between say Ireland - UK - Australia.



This is lazy commentary. It is repeatedly bandied about but I have never heard anyone describe exactly what it is supposed to mean.
The word 'integrate' itself means to combine or join two or more things together. Meaning as much as immigrants have to 'integrate' with western cultures, it is only really possible if we integrate with their cultures.


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## Superman (18 Mar 2018)

Sunny said:


> Someone else said _'only europe sends out ships to "rescue" migrants in the sea and drops them in italy' _
> 
> Amazing how quickly everyone forgets about the picture of the young boy in the red shirt.


 Although not as quickly as this one:





- one of severals children mown down in  Nice ( or one could pick several truck attack / other forms of attack from around Europe).


Sunny said:


> All these scare stories. How we would be taken over by the Poles and Romanians. Its the same now.


I recall government politicians suggesting it was racist scaremongering to suggest that as many as [10-15,000 - or so] Poles would come to Ireland. Not only  incorrect by an order of magnitude, but also attempting to smear any questioning of the competence with which it was being handled.


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## cremeegg (19 Mar 2018)

Superman said:


> I recall government politicians suggesting it was racist scaremongering to suggest that as many as [10-15,000 - or so] Poles would come to Ireland. Not only  incorrect by an order of magnitude, but also attempting to smear any questioning of the competence with which it was being handled.



I fully agree that the political class had no clue how many Poles would come to Ireland after 2002. 

However to conflate the arrival of Poles and other Eastern Europeans in Ireland with truck attacks and dead babies is outrageous, you should be ashamed of yourself.


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## Sunny (22 Mar 2018)

Superman said:


> - one of severals children mown down in  Nice ( or one could pick several truck attack / other forms of attack from around Europe).
> I recall government politicians suggesting it was racist scaremongering to suggest that as many as [10-15,000 - or so] Poles would come to Ireland. Not only  incorrect by an order of magnitude, but also attempting to smear any questioning of the competence with which it was being handled.



And the winner of the most racist and bigoted post is.............

For a start, the Nice truck attack was not done by a refugee (actually vast vast majority of them weren't) but I guess your problem is that was done by someone who isn't white.

But that can't be it either because apparently you have an issue with white Polish people as well.....

So I will give you the benefit of doubt and presume you are just an idiot rather than racist......


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## Purple (23 Mar 2018)

Superman said:


> I recall government politicians suggesting it was racist scaremongering to suggest that as many as [10-15,000 - or so] Poles would come to Ireland. Not only incorrect by an order of magnitude, but also attempting to smear any questioning of the competence with which it was being handled.


Thankfully far more came than we expected. We got a massive increase in skilled workers, a reduction in the dependency ratio, people who generally had a superior work ethic, people willing to do the jobs we weren't willing to do and specifically in the Trades sector (construction and particularly engineering) tradesmen who were far better trained and more skilled than their Irish counterparts. 
There is absolutely no downside to Polish emigration into Ireland. On top of all the economic benefits they also broadened the gene pool.


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## odyssey06 (23 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Thankfully far more came than we expected. We got a massive increase in skilled workers, a reduction in the dependency ratio, people who generally had a superior work ethic, people willing to do the jobs we weren't willing to do and specifically in the Trades sector (construction and particularly engineering) tradesmen who were far better trained and more skilled than their Irish counterparts.
> There is absolutely no downside to Polish emigration into Ireland. On top of all the economic benefits they also broadened the gene pool.



This is just racist nonsense. Should we start deporting natives who have been on welfare for more than a year or who have the gene for cystic fibrosis?


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## joe sod (23 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Thankfully far more came than we expected. We got a massive increase in skilled workers, a reduction in the dependency ratio, people who generally had a superior work ethic, people willing to do the jobs we weren't willing to do and specifically in the Trades sector (construction and particularly engineering) tradesmen who were far better trained and more skilled than their Irish counterparts.
> There is absolutely no downside to Polish emigration into Ireland. On top of all the economic benefits they also broadened the gene pool.



So it was a good thing because they did not directly compete in your profession. It was probably the case that many polish immigrants were far more skilled than Irish professionals but were kept out of these by dubious rules especially relating to Irish language . This was definitely used as an obstacle to keep polish graduates out of the professions. In reality a one year conversion and English language proficiency course would have been more than adequate to get highly qualified polish professionals into similar jobs in Ireland. In reality most of these ended up working in spar.

      However there is a huge difference between migrants from Poland for example who are in the EU and those from outside the EU. Our taxes pay for infrastructure in poland , the same as we benefited from EEC spending in Ireland in the 70s. Its a two way street, however  the same onus is not on us to take in migrants from outside EU as there is no two street. We cannot exert control on countries in North africa like we can within the EU, they are simply not in the club therefore they cannot expect the benefits that EU migrants receive and they cannot expect to be admitted to the EU simply by turning up at the border.


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## cremeegg (24 Mar 2018)

joe sod said:


> It was probably the case that many polish immigrants were far more skilled than Irish professionals but were kept out of these by dubious rules especially relating to Irish language.



Other than primary school teaching, what other occupation has an Irish language requirement ?


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## Purple (26 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> This is just racist nonsense. Should we start deporting natives who have been on welfare for more than a year or who have the gene for cystic fibrosis?


Why do you think it is racist?


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## Purple (26 Mar 2018)

joe sod said:


> So it was a good thing because they did not directly compete in your profession.


I don't work in a profession, I'm a tradesman. 
There is a huge shortage of skilled people in engineering trades (I don't care about qualifications as there is often very little link between qualification and skill) so getting people in from Eastern Europe was very important for my sector. In general I find that the people who go into engineering trades in Poland are more intelligent than their Irish counterparts. I still see Irish people who think they need "a food pair of hands" rather than a reasonably good mind to do well in the sector and so can't cope with the mathematics and programming requirements. Of course that is a general comment and there are many exceptions.


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## Purple (26 Mar 2018)

joe sod said:


> However there is a huge difference between migrants from Poland for example who are in the EU and those from outside the EU. Our taxes pay for infrastructure in poland , the same as we benefited from EEC spending in Ireland in the 70s. Its a two way street, however the same onus is not on us to take in migrants from outside EU as there is no two street. We cannot exert control on countries in North africa like we can within the EU, they are simply not in the club therefore they cannot expect the benefits that EU migrants receive and they cannot expect to be admitted to the EU simply by turning up at the border.


I agree. We should only let them in if they have skills we need or if they are refugees fleeing war or oppression somewhere, Syria for example.

...oh, and it was the 70's, 80's, 90's and 00's.
It wasn't until 2016 that we became a (small) net contributor to the EU.


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## odyssey06 (26 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> Why do you think it is racist?



Let's put it this way, if an Italian politician from say Five Star gave a speech where he said that North Africans had to be kept out because they don't have a work ethic, and to protect the Italian gene pool... for some reason such as they carry sickle cell anemia - well, would you call that a racist speech? 
I don't see any difference between saying that and what you said, one is a mirror of the other... if you're going to use phrases like "gene pool" I think you need to tread carefully.


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## Purple (26 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Let's put it this way, if an Italian politician from say Five Star gave a speech where he said that North Africans had to be kept out because they don't have a work ethic, and to protect the Italian gene pool... for some reason such as they carry sickle cell anemia - well, would you call that a racist speech?
> I don't see any difference between saying that and what you said, one is a mirror of the other... if you're going to use phrases like "gene pool" I think you need to tread carefully.



The fact that emigration broadens the gene pool is a positive byproduct. It should not be used as grounds to allow or prevent that emigration. A positive work ethic is a much more subjective thing but in my experience over the last 10-15 years I have found that employees from Eastern Europe have a good work ethic and they certainly miss fewer days work than their Irish born counterparts. But, again, that's just my experience. The gene pool thing is just a fact, as is the fact that the broader your genetic material the less likely you are to suffer from inherited genetic diseases. That's the irony for all the white supremacists; not only are black people more genetically advanced that people of white European origin as we share some DNA with Neanderthals, but the more "mongrel" you are the better it is.


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## odyssey06 (26 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> The fact that emigration broadens the gene pool is a positive byproduct. It should not be used as grounds to allow or prevent that emigration. A positive work ethic is a much more subjective thing but in my experience over the last 10-15 years I have found that employees from Eastern Europe have a good work ethic and they certainly miss fewer days work than their Irish born counterparts. But, again, that's just my experience.



Maybe Italians have experienced encounters with these immigrants and that experience has led them to say enough? You seem to value your own experience and devalue that of Italians.



> The gene pool thing is just a fact, as is the fact that the broader your genetic material the less likely you are to suffer from inherited genetic diseases. That's the irony for all the white supremacists; not only are black people more genetically advanced that people of white European origin as we share some DNA with Neanderthals, but the more "mongrel" you are the better it is.



And was it a fact that Ireland's gene pool circa 2000 was in need of improvement?
Is a population of 4 million people insufficient to maintain a healthy gene pool?
Is a population of 60 million people, in Italy's case, insufficient?


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## Purple (26 Mar 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> Maybe Italians have experienced encounters with these immigrants and that experience has led them to say enough? You seem to value your own experience and devalue that of Italians.


The Italians have a problem with refugees, not immigrants. They are two different things. 
I do agree that the rest of the EU should be helping out. I wonder if we'd all be so happy with the Irish Navy pulling people out of the Med if we have to take them in here.





odyssey06 said:


> And was it a fact that Ireland's gene pool circa 2000 was in need of improvement?
> Is a population of 4 million people insufficient to maintain a healthy gene pool?


We have a higher rate of genetic illnesses than the rest of Europe. The population size isn't the issue, rather the genetic diversity of that population. 


odyssey06 said:


> Is a population of 60 million people, in Italy's case, insufficient?


 Italy has seen large influxes of people from Africa in the past (that's why the southern Italians are darker skinned) as well as tribes from central Europe. They are far more genetically diverse than us.


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## joe sod (26 Mar 2018)

Purple said:


> The fact that emigration broadens the gene pool is a positive byproduct. It should not be used as grounds to allow or prevent that emigration. A positive work ethic is a much more subjective thing but in my experience over the last 10-15 years I have found that employees from Eastern Europe have a good work ethic and they certainly miss fewer days work than their Irish born counterparts. But, again, that's just my experience. The gene pool thing is just a fact, as is the fact that the broader your genetic material the less likely you are to suffer from inherited genetic diseases. That's the irony for all the white supremacists; not only are black people more genetically advanced that people of white European origin as we share some DNA with Neanderthals, but the more "mongrel" you are the better it is.


 
I think you are entering into dangerous territory here, afterall the nazis used pseudo science to justify their aryan racial theories, now you are doing it from the other extreme. We need africans because we are not diverse enough in our dna is bogus rubbish, europe has a population of circa 400 million surely there is huge diversity already within that population. Some animal species only have a few thousand individuals and conservationists are happy that they have enough diversity to sustain the species. You could also use your very same argument to justify colonisation, africans are not diverse enough therefore they need europeans to invade in order to increase the dna diversity for the african population. Also farming and breeding of livestock where most of our livestock are descended from a relatively small number of individual bulls refutes the theory about having too small a gene pool. Of course it is true in agriculture that some pure bred animals are too highly bred , but most of our farm animals are perfectly healthy.


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## Purple (26 Mar 2018)

joe sod said:


> I think you are entering into dangerous territory here, afterall the nazis used pseudo science to justify their aryan racial theories, now you are doing it from the other extreme. We need africans because we are not diverse enough in our dna is bogus rubbish, europe has a population of circa 400 million surely there is huge diversity already within that population. Some animal species only have a few thousand individuals and conservationists are happy that they have enough diversity to sustain the species. You could also use your very same argument to justify colonisation, africans are not diverse enough therefore they need europeans to invade in order to increase the dna diversity for the african population. Also farming and breeding of livestock where most of our livestock are descended from a relatively small number of individual bulls refutes the theory about having too small a gene pool. Of course it is true in agriculture that some pure bred animals are too highly bred , but most of our farm animals are perfectly healthy.


Hold your horses there, I'm not suggesting that we need Africans because we are not diverse enough. I'm just pointing out that genetic diversity is good an in-breeding is bad. That's not an argument for allowing immigrants into the EU, it's just a positive by-product. There are lots of negatives too but the issue in Italy isn't immigration it's refugees (there are lots of negatives there too). My problem with the populist parties, and I see no difference between Trump and UKIP and 5 Star and Paul Murphy/PBP/AAA/Solidarity or whatever they call themselves now; populism is populism and it seeks to blame someone else for broader societal problems. Trump blamed the Mexicans, the Italian populists blame the refugees, UKIP blame immigrants and the Anti Reality Alliance here blame "the Rich". They are all populist and dangerous and encourage people to abdicate personal responsibility for their problems. That makes people feel powerless and angry and undermines democracy and the rule of law. It's not just intellectually lazy, it is very dangerous.


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