# School enrolment forms asking for Religion of Child (split from sec 29 Q)



## Complainer (4 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> Giving a preference to a child of a particular religious background is against the equality law is it not?


There are specific exemptions to allow schools to discriminate by selecting children based on their religion. Crazy I know, but there ya go.


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## AlbacoreA (4 May 2011)

You can select based on your ethos, and enrollment policy.



> There is a widespread misunderstanding in Ireland as to the religious  nature of national schools - for instance, there is no such thing as a  Catholic national school (and none is so named) - people of all  religions being taught together in the same school is at the core of  what national schooling in Ireland means, and all of the national  schools have "no religious discrimination at entry" as part of their  ethos.[_citation needed_]  However, Section 7(3)(c) of the Equal Status Acts 2000 to 2004 provides  that a school does not violate anti-discrimination legislation where  "it admits persons of a particular religious denomination in preference  to others or it refuses to admit as a student a person who is not of  that denomination and, in the case of a refusal, it is proved that the  refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school". Although  recently introduced religious discrimination, primarily by the Catholic  Church, is incompatible with the Equal Status Act, the Equality  Authority has thus far failed to react against it.[_citation needed_]
> Ethos, or characteristic spirit, is an important concept in the any  legal understanding of education in Ireland. It is best defined  (legally) in the 1998 Education Act. "the characteristic spirit of the  school as determined by the cultural, educational, moral, religious,  social, linguistic and spiritual values and traditions which inform and  are characteristic of the objectives and conduct of the school"



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_(Ireland)


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## JoeB (4 May 2011)

Hi complainer, thanks for your info.

I was aware of the State tolerated religious discrimination practiced in Ireland. One's constitutional rights to an education are put at risk by that policy. I wouldn't imagine that there's many places available in the catholic schools for athiests, and catholic ethos schools still make up perhaps 90% of all schools? Perhaps the number is lower now with the increasing hatred of Catholicism.

I have always been unhappy at the States outsourcing of education to organisations with vested interests.


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## AlbacoreA (4 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> ...I wouldn't imagine that there's many places available in the catholic schools for athiests,...



In our local schools, AFAIK being a RC is not checked. Indeed they have a quota for non RC kids. So you've actually more likely to get a place if not RC in those RC school. Slightly different, but Our local VEC secondary only guarantees places for the one local faith school (Not RC). All the RC primary schools, take their chance in based on enrollment criteria and a lottery. So if you were a RC, you'd be better off pretending not to be, and attending the other non RC faith school, if you want to be guaranteed a place. I expect this will be more common, with positive discrimination for minority groups. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_school_%28Ireland%29#Current_status


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## PaddyBloggit (4 May 2011)

AlbacoreA said:


> In our local schools, AFAIK being a RC is not checked.




The vast majority of Primary Schools I've been associated with have a section on their enrolment forms asking for the Religion of the child.


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## dereko1969 (5 May 2011)

PaddyBloggit said:


> The vast majority of Primary Schools I've been associated with have a section on their enrolment forms asking for the Religion of the child.


 
What a wonderful secular Republic we live in.


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## csirl (5 May 2011)

PaddyBloggit said:


> The vast majority of Primary Schools I've been associated with have a section on their enrolment forms asking for the Religion of the child.


 
I recently applied for a primary school place for my daughter and had to include a copy of the christening certificate.


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## AlbacoreA (5 May 2011)

PaddyBloggit said:


> The vast majority of Primary Schools I've been associated with have a section on their enrolment forms asking for the Religion of the child.



Asking for the information and discriminating based on it are two different things. It should be in their enrollment policy if they do indeed. They are required to adhere to their enrollment policy.


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## JoeB (5 May 2011)

Well, what percentage of students are non Catholic in over subscribed Catholic schools? I'd suggest very few, if any.

If that's the case then religious discrimination is rife. I'm reading a book now called the God Virus.. it's all about the children., that's what religious people want, that's when children are impressionable, and when they can be best infected with the religious virus.

I genuinely believe that peoples constitutional rights are being trampled upon by the religious discrimination policy.


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## AlbacoreA (5 May 2011)

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, I'm just making the point that assumptions, or sweeping generalizations may not be correct. Perhaps my area is unique. its useful to find out the facts rather than assuming.


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## huskerdu (5 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> Well, what percentage of students are non Catholic in over subscribed Catholic schools? I'd suggest very few, if any.
> 
> If that's the case then religious discrimination is rife. I'm reading a book now called the God Virus.. it's all about the children., that's what religious people want, that's when children are impressionable, and when they can be best infected with the religious virus.
> 
> I genuinely believe that peoples constitutional rights are being trampled upon by the religious discrimination policy.




I agree entirely with your view point and it makes me angry too. 

But, on a point of information, lots of Catholic schools have non-Catholics. 

I am an athiest and my children attend the local catholic school. 

The school is seriously over-subscribed, but we live in the local catchment area, so got a place and Catholics from outside the catchment area were turned down.

To reiterate what has been said before. 

Every school has to have an enrollment policy which must be publically available and they must stick to it.

They can stipulate that Catholics take precedence over non-Catholics but not all do. 

A typical enrolment policy looks like this

1) siblings of  current pupils
2) Catholics in the catchment area
3) non-Catholics in the catchment area
4) Catholics from outside the catchment area
5) non-Catholics from outside the catchment area

or this

1) siblings of  current pupils
2) Catholics in the catchment area
 3) Catholics from outside the catchment area
4) non-Catholics in the catchment area
5) non-Catholics from outside the catchment area


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## AlbacoreA (5 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> Well, what percentage of students are non Catholic in over subscribed Catholic schools? I'd suggest very few, if any....



How about this one?



> *St. Mochta’s N.S. and St. Patrick’s N.S. will offer  places to children in the following order:*
> *Category 1 *
> At  least two thirds (140) of the Parish places will be offered to  Roman Catholic  children. Up to one third (70) of the Parish places will  be offered to children  of other faiths and none. Category 1 applicants  must fulfil one of the  following criteria;
> (a) Have a sibling(s) in one of the parish schools.
> ...



[broken link removed]


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## Shawady (5 May 2011)

My son attends a Church of Ireland school and he had to get a 'release form' from our local catholic church where he was christened before he was offered a place.


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## ali (5 May 2011)

Shawady said:


> My son attends a Church of Ireland school and he had to get a 'release form' from our local catholic church where he was christened before he was offered a place.


 
My local Church of Ireland school has a clause in their enrollment policy which states that they reserve the right to leave a place empty rather than offer that place to a child of another religion. In my experience they will never accept a child of catholic background unless at least one parent is of protestant (not necessarily Church of Ireland) religion.


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## AlbacoreA (5 May 2011)

I think this demonstrates that policies vary a lot. You need to check the specifics.


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## Shawady (5 May 2011)

ali said:


> My local Church of Ireland school has a clause in their enrollment policy which states that they reserve the right to leave a place empty rather than offer that place to a child of another religion. In my experience they will never accept a child of catholic background unless at least one parent is of protestant (not necessarily Church of Ireland) religion.


 
That sounds extreme.
In my school, they obviously give preference to COI children but will give any extra places to children from other religions. In any given year that could vary from none ot 5 or 6, from what I've been told.


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## Mpsox (5 May 2011)

I can look at this from a couple of perspectives. Growing up in a rural area, everyone in the parish went to the local NS, whether they were RC. COI, CE or whatever and I was never aware of any issues. I enrolled my 4 yr old in the local school where I now live a few weeks ago and had to hand in baptismal cert, fill in forms, supply a photo etc. Telling my mother that, she told me that when I started, she basically turned up with me on day 1, no forms, no nothing to be filled in (back in the 70s), so strangely, in a more secular Ireland nowadays, schools seem to have become fussier about who they enrole.

I don't know if the school my little un is going to go to rejected people on grounds of religon but I do know they rejected people who applied later then others. The other thing I know is that the Church does give a lot of support to the school, one nun for example acts as a teaching assistant and another does a lot of admin and support work. They're paid for by the parish, not for by the school and would probably be lost as resources if the school had to give up it's RC ethos


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## huskerdu (5 May 2011)

Mpsox said:


> I don't know if the school my little un is going to go to rejected people on grounds of religon but I do know they rejected people who applied later then others.



You can find out very quickly by checking the enrollment policy. 
Is date of application more important than religion. These are exactly yh issues that have to be in an enrolment policy



Mpsox said:


> The other thing I know is that the Church does give a lot of support to the school, one nun for example acts as a teaching assistant and another does a lot of admin and support work. They're paid for by the parish, not for by the school and would probably be lost as resources if the school had to give up it's RC ethos



Given the scarcity of nuns, I doubt if this is normal. 
I have not seen a nun helping in a school in a long time. 

My local school gets zero financial help or support from the parish it is attatched to. Most parishs  to not have enough money to pay two salaries for the local school.  If they do, they get it from the parish funds which they collect, so the money is really coming from the parents anyway. 

Schools cant survive on the state fund alone. In most schools, the shortfall is made up by parents volunteering and fundraising.  This would continue whether the patron of the school was the local Catholic bishop or not.


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## csirl (5 May 2011)

Mpsox said:


> The other thing I know is that the Church does give a lot of support to the school, one nun for example acts as a teaching assistant and another does a lot of admin and support work. They're paid for by the parish, not for by the school


 
Are you sure? I would guess that they are on the payroll and paid out of State funds as with all the other employees of the school.


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## Jim2007 (5 May 2011)

JoeBallantin said:


> I genuinely believe that peoples constitutional rights are being trampled upon by the religious discrimination policy.



Exactly what constitutional rights are be trampled upon and exactly how are they, the people, being prevented from getting relief - are they being denied access to the courts, legal aid or what???

Jim.


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## Mpsox (6 May 2011)

csirl said:


> Are you sure? I would guess that they are on the payroll and paid out of State funds as with all the other employees of the school.


 
yes, 100% sure


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