# Gross missconduct



## Lizzieb (2 Jan 2019)

Hi 
I have just been dismissed for gross misconduct, my employer says that over  300 transactions have been processing as vouchers when it was actually cash and they believe that it was me as it was my number. However i believe it was someone using my number, they have records, the say rotas put me there. How ever in the investigation they only looked into some of the transactions and with held 1/3 of them. They allege this was going on for 9 months, the vouchers that were processed never arrived in head office. I am going to appeal it, as they failed to provide me with all the evidence and the till records so i can defend myself. Can anyone offer any advice ?


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## noproblem (2 Jan 2019)

I'm assuming you're working in the retail trade but after that it's difficult to understand the issue. Are you saying people who paid cash at the till were entered as if the bill was paid in vouchers and the money or vouchers have gone awol, or was cash paid and a voucher written in lieu but the cash went missing?


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## cmalone (2 Jan 2019)

Sorry to hear about this serious issue in your life ... however, unclear context as to exactly what’s going on. Can you provide more detail of background (without revealing identify of employer etc ). What is main area of work? What are ‘vouchers’ ordinarily processed? Could you have made any errors in processing ?


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## Lizzieb (3 Jan 2019)

Its in retail store, the vouchers are paper gift vouchers. Basically on the till.you can select paper vouchers as a tender, the claim that cash from customers were getting rung through the till as paper vouchers and the actual cash was being stolen. I believe someone did this using my ID number


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## Leper (3 Jan 2019)

What has happened to Lizzie is not unusual in the retail business. You need to talk to your union. Your union might even pay your legal fees and you could get an exit package that you only dreamed of. 

There are many unthinkables on Lizzie's post e.g. did management just want to dismiss Lizzie and used this illegal method to achieve their aims? Is there another member of staff/management on the take?

The consequences of the treatment meted out to Lizzie are far reaching. For a start your honesty is in question and talk is cheap. You might never work in retail again and bring unfair summaries of your alleged performance to a new employer. I am beating about the bush, but the bottom line is Lizzie's good/honest reputation is at stake. 

Talk to your union and fast.


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## noproblem (3 Jan 2019)

As I suspected but am not putting blame on anyone. How much money is involved and how many people apart from the supervisor knew your ID? Would someone not have to enter your ID every time they transacted a sale and then go back to their own ID and continue? This would be spotted a mile off in my opinion, by security, cctv, by management and by customers too, many of whom work in retail and know how these systems work.


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## Lizzieb (3 Jan 2019)

Everyone in store knows my number, it has been 9 months since this started. They failed to give me all the evidence, they never looked into any other staff member. There is no cctv in store. They havent looked at any other avenues, this is 21k. We dont have a union as i suspect other staff i could ask them to be a witness


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## losttheplot (3 Jan 2019)

For a theft of 21k, I'd expect the Gardai to be involved. If they haven't contacted the Gardai, I'd be suspicious they're just making it up.


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## Lizzieb (3 Jan 2019)

They haven't  contacted the gardai they threatened to do so but havent, the fact that they wont show me over 100 of the transactions is also suspicious to. I think they thought it was me and i would own u, but as i didnt do it i couldnt own up, the have no real prove if they do they havent shown me. For many of the transactions i believe i was on lunch or off the shop floor but they never looked into that


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

Regardless of the details, it sounds like they have not followed any sort of due or fair process. They are in deep trouble if this is the case. Even if you are not a member you could try contacting a union relevent to your business to see of they can help. Either that or contact a HR specialist company to advise. Either way, if you haven't already done so, you should write down in as much detail as you can the timeline of events that brought you to be dismissed as soon as you can, and revise it as and when you recall further detail.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (3 Jan 2019)

If they have not followed due process then you probably have a case for the WRC.

The WRC does not really care as to whether the employee was right or wrong in their actions. It's all about whether management had procedures, and followed them, in dismissing the staff member.


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## Feemar5 (3 Jan 2019)

When you balanced your till did you not have to record so much in cash and so much in vouchers to match the total take.    Somebody should have contacted you about the discrepancy and give  you a chance to explain.   There should be a company policy on disciplinary action outlining verbal warnings etc.,   You should put your concerns in writing to the management and let them know that you intend to take this matter up with the WRC .


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## newtothis (3 Jan 2019)

Feemar5 said:


> You should put your concerns in writing to the management and let them know that you intend to take this matter up with the WRC .



I would not do this unless and until advised to do so my someone expert who has been briefed on the details of your case as it seems to serve little purpose and other than to warn them, giving them the opportunity to rewrite history and try and recover their position before they've been challanged on it.


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## DeeKie (4 Jan 2019)

How awful to be wrongfully accused. Spend the time writing out what happened to you in terms of process. See if you can pick holes in what was given to you. Then go to an employment law expert/ solicitor/ union without delay. For now, with management, write to them with a very short note to say that you reject completely the dismissal and the reason for it, and you reserve your rights.


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## Leper (4 Jan 2019)

We don't know if you failed to join a union or if your employer would not recognize your union to represent you. Lots of good advice is being given here, please heed it. Your work colleagues probably know that you were suspended/sacked. It's not unthinkable they believe you are in the wrong.  If you do nothing on your own behalf, it's tantamount to guilt in the eyes of many. Your reputation has been tarnished greater than you think and there may be repercussions for your future. The gardaí become involved, there is a court case, you're found guilty or not guilty, newspapers print news and anything of human interest stories (like yours) sell papers. 

You must have financial resources to fight the allegations against you. If you haven't resources, you are facing an uphill battle. Word-of-mouth is a dangerous weapon when used against you. At this moment your employer holds all the aces and you are shuffling deuces and trays. Look at it this way:- Would you employ somebody who robbed his employer? Through your inaction and naivité, this is where you stand.

In your favour it's widely known that passwords are usually commonly known by other work colleagues. In the absence of cctv your case is more difficult to assess. We have your word. Your employer will be well aware of what must be done and can offset his/her legal fees against profits.

Anybody looking in on this thread might like to consider their vulnerability if they are not members of a trade union.


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## Sophrosyne (4 Jan 2019)

Can you set out the sequence of events prior to your dismissal, e.g., when and how were you first notified that you were under investigation, were you suspended first and if so was this with or without pay.

Is it common practice that individual employee’s ID numbers are known to others?


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## Lizzieb (4 Jan 2019)

When we balance the till it only looks for cash and credit cards


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## Bronte (4 Jan 2019)

The scam was a customer paying for an item in cash but the shop assistant put into the till that it was a voucher.  Then stole the cash.

- why would the other staff know your ID
- very odd nobody was checking the tills added up every day if they weren't counting vouchers
- the thief is still there
- did anyone new join the staff nine months ago
- which member of staff suddenly seemed to have more spending money


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## noproblem (4 Jan 2019)

Lizzieb said:


> When we balance the till it only looks for cash and credit cards



Lizzie,
At this stage you've been given plenty of advice on what to do and not to do,  I would suggest you don't give any more info here as you just might be identified. You've enough to work on from here now but come back and tell us what happened. Just my opinion and good luck.


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## Sunny (4 Jan 2019)

There is no case for dismissal. If everyone knows your ID and you know everyone elses work ID, then that is the work practice that matters. It would be different if it was in the rules and was strictly enforced that people should not share Till ID's. As it is, it seems like you all share ID's on a day to day basis so can't be used against you.

You should record everything in writing. You should request the reasons for your dismissal in writing from your employer if they haven't already provided it. They must provide this within 14 days. I presume you have more than 12 months service so the Unfair Dismissal Legislation applies to you. You should lodge an appeal to the WRC. This must be done within 6 months of the date of your dismissal.

Any business that loses 21k in this manner should be sacking the management.......


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## newtothis (4 Jan 2019)

Bronte said:


> The scam was a customer paying for an item in cash but the shop assistant put into the till that it was a voucher.  Then stole the cash.
> 
> - why would the other staff know your ID
> - very odd nobody was checking the tills added up every day if they weren't counting vouchers
> ...



That may well be the case and of passing interest, but it's of no particular relevance to the OP. It’s irrelevant to them what may or may not have been going onm who was involved or how they operated. What they’re concerned about is they’ve been dismissed, and what is relevant to that is whether the dismissal was “fair” or not. That is, it is the disciplinary process and procedures that led up to that action being taken that is relevant; the original actions or lack of actions that led to it that is not important. Dismissing someone from their livelihood when an employer cannot show that a fair process was used is (rightly) viewed as a very serious matter by the WRC. A fair process would include sharing all the evidence the employer had and providing an opportunity to the employee to state their case adequately prior to any action being taken.


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## Leo (4 Jan 2019)

newtothis said:


> Dismissing someone from their livelihood when an employer cannot show that a fair process was used is (rightly) viewed as a very serious matter by the WRC.



Exactly, this recent case and others like it should serve notice to employers how important it is to have well defined & documented disciplinary procedures in place and follow them through to the letter in such cases.


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## cremeegg (4 Jan 2019)

Leper said:


> You must have financial resources to fight the allegations against you. If you haven't resources, you are facing an uphill battle.



I don't think that there are any resources required to take a case for unfair dismissal.




Leper said:


> At this moment your employer holds all the aces .



Hardly, the employer has made their decision in this matter and acted on that. They have no cards to play at this stage. The OP can take a case or not as s/he wishes.

If the OP does take a case the onus will be on the employer to show that they acted fairly. I have only slight knowledge of these things, but I suspect a dismissal for gross misconduct would require a high burden of proof from the employer


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## Tintagel (5 Jan 2019)

Have you been on holiday during the last nine months. Ask to see if any vouchers were used during that time. 
However it is always possible that the real thief only stole while you were about in order to put the blame on you.
What about your day off work?
Start writing everything down while it is still fresh in your mind.


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## newtothis (5 Jan 2019)

Tintagel said:


> Have you been on holiday during the last nine months. Ask to see if any vouchers were used during that time.
> However it is always possible that the real thief only stole while you were about in order to put the blame on you.
> What about your day off work?


It's not down to the OP to prove her innocence; it’s up to her employer to (a) prove her guilt and, more importantly (b) do so as part of a fair and transparent process. In fact, her guilt isn’t even that important (I'm not suggesting for a moment she is guilty of anything), as the recent Tesco case highlighted by someone here showed. In that case, there was no dispute the property was taken without payment (theft by another name); it was all about the process that led the dismissal.


Tintagel said:


> Start writing everything down while it is still fresh in your mind.


 This is good advice.


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## MangoJoe (9 Jan 2019)

You say that everyone in the Store knows your ID number - Assuming you didn't decide to bring about this eventuality yourself personally then why is this?

Please clarify why and how this information became commonly known across the shop.

Are staff members asked to share/swap/use these IDs interchangeably with Managements approval/direction/knowledge?

- If this ID number was to be, for example, printed on a sheet of paper or otherwise made available on a computer system or similar that everyone has access to then I'd be going straight for these peoples throats for not safeguarding this implement they've subsequently chosen to use as a weapon against you.

If the thief had used the Owner/Managers Till ID in this manner would they have rang the Gardaí and demanded a prosecution upon themselves?

I'd be very happy to see the WRC award heavily against the Kangaroos who ran this court.

Sorry for the stress and worry brought upon you - Hope you're ok.


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## DeeKie (10 Jan 2019)

Any update OP?


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## Purple (14 Jan 2019)

cremeegg said:


> Hardly, the employer has made their decision in this matter and acted on that. They have no cards to play at this stage. The OP can take a case or not as s/he wishes.
> 
> If the OP does take a case the onus will be on the employer to show that they acted fairly. I have only slight knowledge of these things, but I suspect a dismissal for gross misconduct would require a high burden of proof from the employer



I find it remarkable that any business would sack someone for the theft of €21,000 and not involve the Gardai.

I also find it remarkable that the OP was not given all of the evidence and an opportunity to respond.


From what’s been posted here the OP is in a  very strong position to win any case taken through the WRC.

I suggest the OP reads the WRC's [broken link removed]


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## Lizzieb (20 Jan 2019)

I have went through all stages of appeal within the companies policy and procedures. My ID was on a number of documents available to the whole team,in my appeal I showed that I wasn’t within the till area for transactions they Claimed this happened, they said that they can’t prove it, i was in a different part of the city and even a different country I can prove this. They said they didn’t feel the full evidence was needed as they had enough to prove a pattern. They also claim I should have pointed my concerns out in my 30day review which I never had ? The claim to use rota’s then when I quried this they said they used time sheets to place where I was rota’s state the working time timesheets don’t they also didn’t match. Then some ‘rota’s’ went missing ? They only investigated one line of enquiry


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## DeeKie (21 Jan 2019)

Lizzieb said:


> I have went through all stages of appeal within the companies policy and procedures. My ID was on a number of documents available to the whole team,in my appeal I showed that I wasn’t within the till area for over 150 of the 300 transactions they Claimed this happened, they said that they can’t prove it, i was in a different part of the city and even a different country I can prove this. They said they didn’t feel the full evidence was needed as they had enough to prove a pattern. They also claim I should have pointed my concerns out in my 30day review which I never had ? The claim to use rota’s then when I quried this they said they used time sheets to place where I was rota’s state the working time timesheets don’t they also didn’t match. Then some ‘rota’s’ went missing ? They only investigated one line of enquiry


Oh no. Have they issued you with a letter with the appeal decision? Ask for it in writing if not, then find a solicitor who knows employment law.


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## Lizzieb (21 Jan 2019)

They have issued a letter with the out come the up hold their original decision however there reasoning doesn’t add up seeing a lawyer on Wednesday


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## RETIRED2017 (21 Jan 2019)

Lizzieb said:


> They have issued a letter with the out come the up hold their original decision however there reasoning doesn’t add up seeing a lawyer on Wednesday


Hope you are seeing a solicitor/firm who specialises  in employment law,
I think it would be a good idea to remove any mention  of 300/150 transactions This is an open forum  if the information you have provided is correct it may be possible to make a link to an actual miss conduct case,


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