# Tenants rights in house for sale



## yellowroses (10 Jan 2014)

Hello,

Looking for some advise please. I'm renting a house with my husband & 2 kids about 18 months now. We first signed 12 month contract. When that was due to be renewed I asked agent was the lease going to just roll with part 4 tenency & he said no that we would sign another 12 month lease so we agreed & signed. The house was put up for sale just after we moved in & in first year there were only a few viewings. The 2nd year has been very busy though with viewings every few weeks. My kids are very unsettled over strangers constantly walking around their bedroom etc. Its becoming wearing with the viewings & having house presentable. We are paying normal market rate but there is a hitch. My husband lost his job & for us to be able to receive rent allowance we had to put the rent down as a lower amount otherwise we wouldnt get it. The area we live in there are no properties that accept rent allowance. We have 2 contracts. One that was to qualify for rent allowance & other one with higher rent we pay (80 euro more)
At this point we would like to just move or at least have the option of keeping an eye out for something suitable over the next few months however we just cannot afford to lose our deposit. We have excellent previous landlord refs & have never been late with rent & keep house immaculate etc. I'm thinking of bringing it up to the agent but not sure what to say & what my rights are here. Thanks for reading


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## shesells (12 Jan 2014)

You are entitled to peaceful enjoyment of the property for the duration of your lease, I can't understand why you are facilitating viewings in the first place? Are you getting a reduced rate rent to compensate for these?

Is there a break clause in your lease that allows you to break it mid way through?


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## BudgetBrenda (12 Jan 2014)

I understand it is normal to get a rent reduction for the inconvenience and for you as tenant to stipulate a day(s) and time when you will facilitate viewing. The person who buys may well want vacant possession so I would imagine the owner would be happy to take less notice than the lease requires, because as it is you have the right to stay for the rest of the current lease and this could affect the sale. You should definitely discuss with the agent.


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## facetious (12 Jan 2014)

yellowroses said:


> Hello,
> 
> Looking for some advise please. I'm renting a house with my husband & 2 kids about 18 months now. We first signed 12 month contract. When that was due to be renewed I asked agent was the lease going to just roll with part 4 tenency & he said no that we would sign another 12 month lease so we agreed & signed. The house was put up for sale just after we moved in & in first year there were only a few viewings. The 2nd year has been very busy though with viewings every few weeks. My kids are very unsettled over strangers constantly walking around their bedroom etc. Its becoming wearing with the viewings & having house presentable. We are paying normal market rate but there is a hitch. *My husband lost his job & for us to be able to receive rent allowance we had to put the rent down as a lower amount otherwise we wouldnt get it.* The area we live in there are no properties that accept rent allowance. *We have 2 contracts. One that was to qualify for rent allowance & other one with higher rent we pay (80 euro more)*
> At this point we would like to just move or at least have the option of keeping an eye out for something suitable over the next few months however we just cannot afford to lose our deposit. We have excellent previous landlord refs & have never been late with rent & keep house immaculate etc. I'm thinking of bringing it up to the agent but not sure what to say & what my rights are here. Thanks for reading


Illegal by both parties - landlord and tenant.



> At this point we would like to just move or at least have the option of  keeping an eye out for something suitable over the next few months


There is a big difference between "we would like to just move" and "or at least keeping an eye out for something". The latter could take several months or more before you found somewhere.



> not sure what to say & what my rights are here.


As you have a fixed term agreement, the landlord/agent cannot evict you unless you are in breach of your obligations (getting into rent arrears would take about six weeks plus a few days at the least).

Also, you do not have to permit ANY viewings. This is a breach of of the landlord's obligations - to allow the tenant  peaceful enjoyment and exclusive use of the property. If you want to facilitate viewings you could specify a certain day of the week at a particular time - perhaps when the children are at school.

The agent should have known, the landlord also (but that may be why he is employing an agent) that they cannot evict a tenant during a fixed term lease contract (except for a well worded break clause or breach of obligations). Had they used their knowledge, they should have left it continue on as a Part 4 tenancy, thus giving them the right to evict as the house is for sale.

The only way they could get you to leave (excepting a suitable break clause) is to buy out the lease - giving you the upper hand and you could be looking for several months rent plus moving expenses (as an example).

You could make an agreement with the landlord/agent that you will vacate as soon as you find a suitable property, thus allowing them to have viewings at any time and that the property would be vacant for the new owners as soon as you have vacated - otherwise, they will have to wait until the end of the lease, unless they buy you out. Having to wait for 6 months may well put a potential purchaser off.


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## Bronte (13 Jan 2014)

facetious said:


> Illegal by both parties - landlord and tenant.
> 
> .


 
The tenant is probably stressed enough as it is without worrying her any more.  The landlord falsified the form for social welfare, that's my take on this situation.  And it's going to become a lot more common as social welfare tenants beg landlords, particularly in the rising Dublin rental market to put down a lower rent.  

OP has kindly allowed viewing of the house, and this is her thrump card here.  I would also suggest that a tenant facilitating viewings is a good thing as long as it's at a convenient time.  The tenant does not have to clean the house especially for the viewings.  Nice if they do, but it's not necessary.  The owner quite clearly wants the house sold, he cannot do this if the OP makes viewings difficult.  

So I suggest the OP goes to the agent, and states that the viewings are creating a stressful situation for her, and that she wishes to amicable end the lease.  Any decent landlord would understand and agree to this.  If the agent says no, then OP says no to all viewings, and you can be sure you'll see your request being acceded to.


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## facetious (15 Jan 2014)

Bronte said:


> The tenant is probably stressed enough as it is without worrying her any more.  T*he landlord falsified the form for social welfare, that's my take on this situation*.  And it's going to become a lot more common as social welfare tenants beg landlords, particularly in the rising Dublin rental market to put down a lower rent.
> 
> OP has kindly allowed viewing of the house, and this is her thrump card here.  I would also suggest that a tenant facilitating viewings is a good thing as long as it's at a convenient time.  The tenant does not have to clean the house especially for the viewings.  Nice if they do, but it's not necessary.  The owner quite clearly wants the house sold, he cannot do this if the OP makes viewings difficult.
> 
> So I suggest the OP goes to the agent, and states that the viewings are creating a stressful situation for her, and that she wishes to amicable end the lease.  Any decent landlord would understand and agree to this.  If the agent says no, then OP says no to all viewings, and you can be sure you'll see your request being acceded to.



This is not a post about the OP but a reply (or rant) to Bronte's remark.

The landlord is not going to say to a potential tenant "if you need rent allowance, then I can let you have a lease stating a lower rent" so that the potential tenant gets the allowance and the landlord gets a tenant. 

The first step would be the potential tenant saying that the rent is above the allowance given by the SW - can the landlord and tenant come to an arrangement.

I know, I have been there. I have also had my house repossessed and had to find accommodation that I did not like nor was it in a location that I would have preferred. 

When a person falls on bad times, the belt must be tightened extremely tight in order to come out the other side and carry on in life. Someone who is "down and nearly out" needs to understand the difference between what they need and not what they want - there is a big difference. The wants go out the window and the needs have to be satisfied It is a hard struggle and a struggle it will be if one sticks to the needs without the wants.

I eventually got a job and I worked from before 8 am to usually after 6 pm if there was work available in the company. Often I didn't get home till 7, 8,9 or later. I worked extremely hard, when others were happy to finish as 5 or 6 pm. I scrimped and saved as much as I could. Within six months of starting work, I was one of the top earners in the company and because i was willing to work all the hours God sent, I was usually chosen to do the good paying jobs as it was a commission type based payment. 

Happily, I eventually got back on my feet and vowed that I would never again get a mortgage to buy a property. I can say that I am now retired being of that age and on a state pension only, plus some meagre savings. 
The current property which I bought for cash (less than 30k) is not the most ideal nor the location that I would prefer, but beggars can't be choosers. At least it is my own home and I will live out my days here - unless I win the lotto, which won't happen as I don't waste my money on the slight chance of winning a big sum. I have had two prize bonds for over 50 years and never won anything.

I do voluntary work in another part of the country and last Monday I left home at 2.30 in the morning to get to a meeting for 11 am. Then I had to travel back home again. A long day!

When dealing with landlord tenant law, I try to put the legal side of  things and, if you look through any of my posts, I refrain from getting  personally involved - a cold way of doing things, perhaps, but the legalities are usually correct, I hope and believe.


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## Brendan Burgess (15 Jan 2014)

OK guys. Please stay on topic. It is entirely appropriate for facetious to point out the legalities of the situation as this may well have implications for the OP. But now that it is done, please deal only with the issue at hand.


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## facetious (15 Jan 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> OK guys. Please stay on topic. It is entirely appropriate for facetious to point out the legalities of the situation as this may well have implications for the OP. But now that it is done, please deal only with the issue at hand.


Sorry for the rent, BB.


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## Bronte (16 Jan 2014)

I thought it was a wonderful post Facetious, very interesting and informative and puts a whole new light on you. I had a notion that you were in your twenties. 

In relation to legalities, as you know I'm a landlord, I know the law in this area, but the realities must also be considered when we have an actual real situation. 99% percent of intereaction between landlords and tenant's is not about law, it's about coming to a mutually agreeable solution.


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## facetious (19 Jan 2014)

Bronte said:


> I thought it was a wonderful post Facetious, very interesting and informative and puts a whole new light on you. I had a notion that you were in your twenties.
> 
> In relation to legalities, as you know I'm a landlord, I know the law in this area, but the realities must also be considered when we have an actual real situation. *99% percent of intereaction between landlords and tenant's is not about law, it's about coming to a mutually agreeable solution.*



Bronte, I have a very high regard to your knowledge of the law relating to Rented accommodation. 

But surely, it is about the law and coming to a mutually amicable agreement within the confines of the law. At all, it is the law that shows where there is an error of the part of the landlord or tenant.

In my old age (!!!), I am getting more and more like "Victor Meldrew". And I know it.

Therefore, I try to refrain from getting personally emotional in regards to people's problems and I stick give any advice as per the law (as far as I understand it.

I am sure you will agree, that I have given the OP her options as regards the law - it is for the OP to decide what to do, especially as we do not know all her circumstances. There are too many people willing give advice without knowing all the facts involved in the issue. After all. what can we really glean from less than 300 words?


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## yellowroses (20 Feb 2014)

facetious said:


> Bronte, I have a very high regard to your knowledge of the law relating to Rented accommodation.
> 
> But surely, it is about the law and coming to a mutually amicable agreement within the confines of the law. At all, it is the law that shows where there is an error of the part of the landlord or tenant.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for the responses. I know the legalities regarding topping up the rent allowance. We were already tenants over a year when we applied for rent allowance so the agent agreed the LL would accept rent allowance but wouldnt reduce the rent to the correct limit. If we didnt top it up we wouldve had no where to live.
 There are no properties in my area or neighbouring areas that fall within the limits set by cwo so we had to chose topping up the rent or being on the streets with 2 small children. We are also on the council house waiting list 4 years now so we have to stay in the area we put on the form. 
Our sons school is a major reason why we must stay in this town too, we are not catholic so its only one of 5 Educate Together schools in this county & as he has some issues (awaiting psychological assessment) too moving schools would have a serious negative impact on him.
The house will likely sell before our contract is up in the summer so the stress now of trying to find somewhere to live is already keeping me awake at night. At the moment on daft there is a 1 bed apartment in our price limit in our town. My husband has been looking for work all over the world & cannot even get work with jobsbridge!


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## Bronte (21 Feb 2014)

yellowroses said:


> At the moment on daft there is a 1 bed apartment in our price limit in our town.


 
That's not a good situation to be in, very stressful, have rents gone up?  I agree that the social welfare rates are crazy in some areas.  Don't worry about the top up, the council aren't interested.  Maybe the house won't sell for ages.  How slow is the council list?


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## facetious (21 Feb 2014)

Even if the house goes "sale agreed" it will take a minimum of 6 weeks (and probably more like  2-3 months) before the contracts are signed. If the purchaser is looking for a mortgage then the mortgage company will probably insist that there  is vacant possession on completion.

I haven't understood from your posts as to whether you have signed a new fixed term lease or if you have opted for a Part 4 tenancy.

If you have signed a new fixed term agreement then you do not have to move out until the expiry date (assuming there is no break clause).

If you have opted for a Part 4 tenancy then the landlord must give you 56 days notice which he may not do until he is fairly certain that the house is sold - many purchasers will pull out of a sale for various reasons, some for problems with the property and others because they simply decide against it for one reason or another.

Unless you have made  other arrangements with the landlord/EA, you should restrict viewings to certain times in the week - say, Wednesday between 3-4 pm and an evening or weekend time. This must be agreed and confirmed with you at least 48 hours before the viewing.

Unfortunately, the landlord wants his cake and eat it. IMHO, if he was serious about selling his house, he would not have had tenants in it. While I was house-hunting 1012-2013, if there was a tenant in occupation, with a fixed term lease, I wasn't interested even viewing. I really turned down quite a few properties on this one principle.


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## yellowroses (21 Feb 2014)

facetious said:


> Even if the house goes "sale agreed" it will take a minimum of 6 weeks (and probably more like 2-3 months) before the contracts are signed. If the purchaser is looking for a mortgage then the mortgage company will probably insist that there is vacant possession on completion.
> 
> I haven't understood from your posts as to whether you have signed a new fixed term lease or if you have opted for a Part 4 tenancy.
> 
> ...


 
We are on a fixed term lease. When our last lease was due for renewal i asked agent about part 4 & he said no that we'd sign a new 12 month lease which we went ahead with. I didnt know at the time we had a choice. The lease is up at the end of July. There have been a big increase in viewings. We think its not selling because of our next door neighbour. The back garden is a disgrace, full of over flowing wheelies bins & at least 15 black bags of rubbish etc. The dept of environment have been out too. So there is no way of knowing if a sale will materialize even though interest has picked up. 

Regarding when our lease is due for renewal, the agent must give us 56 days notice for a new lease is it? If we want part 4 when do we tell the agent & as its already for sale would that come into it?


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## facetious (22 Feb 2014)

yellowroses said:


> We are on a fixed term lease. When our last lease was due for renewal i asked agent about part 4 & he said no that we'd sign a new 12 month lease which we went ahead with. I didnt know at the time we had a choice. The lease is up at the end of July. There have been a big increase in viewings. We think its not selling because of our next door neighbour. The back garden is a disgrace, full of over flowing wheelies bins & at least 15 black bags of rubbish etc. The dept of environment have been out too. So there is no way of knowing if a sale will materialize even though interest has picked up.
> 
> Regarding when our lease is due for renewal, the agent must give us 56 days notice for a new lease is it? If we want part 4 when do we tell the agent & as its already for sale would that come into it?


The landlord/EA can do nothing to evict you before the end of the fixed term lease - it would be illegal eviction for which you could claim damages by bringing a claim to the PRTB. Stay calm you have plenty of time still, until the lease expires.

Advise the landlord/EA, in writing (keep a dated copy), that you will only permit viewings (if you want to allow them) at specific times in any one week and with prior agreement with yourself. You are entitled to your peaceful and exclusive enjoyment of the property and any insistence for viewings outside those times would constitute a breach of the landlord's obligations (and cause for a claim with the PRTB). 

As regards the lease renewal, it is entirely the tenant's choice, although the landlord/EA may try to insist on a fixed term agreement. IMHO, if a landlord wants to sell his property, he is stupid to insist on a fixed term lease as he has no legal means of insisting on viewings and must wait until the fixed term expires. Again, he must usually wait until the term expires before the sale can be completed.

The landlord does not have to give any notice period for the renewal of a lease (fixed term or Part4). In principle, when a fixed term lease expires, the tenancy ends. However, there are two principles for the tenant. 

Firstly, once a tenant has been living in a property for six months, they are entitled to remain for a total of 4 years without signing a new lease (the tenancy continues, after the fixed term, as a Part 4 tenancy). 

Secondly, if a tenant wishes to remain in a property on the expiration of a fixed term lease (thus invoking their Part 4 rights) a tenant should advise the landlord between 3 months an one month prior to the expiry of the fixed term, that they intend to remain in the property. Failing to advise the landlord that he wishes to remain, does not affect the tenant's rights to remain but means that he may incur any expenses that a landlord may have had as regards getting a  new tenant - however, this rarely happens as most landlords will check  to see if the tenant is going to stay before they start advertizing.

If a landlord intends to sell a property, he should, in the interests of good landlord-tenant relationships, advise the tenant accordingly. He should also advise that, with the intention of selling, he would not be able to accept a fixed term lease (as he has no means of getting the tenant to leave though he may now have a suitable break clause in the lease to overcome this).

So the tenancy becomes a Part 4 tenancy and now the landlord may evict a tenant (with the appropriate notice period) any time during the Part 4 tenancy. However, likewise, a tenant may also vacate at any time (with the appropriate notice period) without losing their deposit (except for damage in excess of fair wear and tear.

A tenant is entitled to his peaceful and exclusive enjoyment of the property whether it is a fixed term or a Part 4 tenancy. That is, he does not have to allow the landlord/agent into the property other than for periodic inspections (at a time agreed by both parties) or repairs. However, tenants often agree to facilitate viewings (either for the sale of the property or for new tenants). In this respect, a landlord has a few strings to pull - he will not supply the vacating tenant with a reference if viewings are not allowed by the tenant who may need one for his next landlord. Thus, viewings are often permitted but only on specific days and times.


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## yellowroses (26 Feb 2014)

facetious said:


> The landlord/EA can do nothing to evict you before the end of the fixed term lease - it would be illegal eviction for which you could claim damages by bringing a claim to the PRTB. Stay calm you have plenty of time still, until the lease expires.
> 
> Advise the landlord/EA, in writing (keep a dated copy), that you will only permit viewings (if you want to allow them) at specific times in any one week and with prior agreement with yourself. You are entitled to your peaceful and exclusive enjoyment of the property and any insistence for viewings outside those times would constitute a breach of the landlord's obligations (and cause for a claim with the PRTB).
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for the informative post. The EA has some strings to pull with us really because of the rent allowance top up so we feel we are obligated with the viewings as he may decide not to accept rent allowance anymore.
We will most likely opt for part 4 tenancy if the house doesnt sell. 
So we would write to agent 3 months before lease expires & inform him that we are continuing lease on part 4??? Can he at that stage tell us that he wants us to move out at end of lease?


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## facetious (27 Feb 2014)

Legally, a tenant is required to inform the landlord between 3 months and 1 month before the expiry of the fixed term lease that they wish to remain in the property under Part 4 rights. However, if the tenant does not do this, it does not exempt them from their rights to remain, the consequence is that if the landlord has incurred any expense in advertising or agents fees (in anticipation of the tenant leaving) then the tenant is liable for these costs. 

In an exceptional case, if the landlord had organized a new tenant to move in and the original tenant was still in the property, the tenant could become liable for the new tenant's accommodation until he had vacated.

In my honest opinion, a landlord may  serve a notice of termination during a fixed term lease on the grounds that he intends to sell a property but that notice must not expire until a Part 4 tenancy exists. That is, if the notice period was 56 days, the landlord may serve the notice at, say, 50 days prior to the expiry of the fixed term, thus, on day 56 the tenancy would have already become a Part 4 tenancy and the notice would be valid.

I would be interested in Bronte's point of view on this matter as some people say that the Notice of Termination may only be served once a Part 4 tenancy is already in place. However, it would be rare for a landlord not to make inquiries as to what the tenant wanted to remain before he started advertising.


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## yellowroses (28 Feb 2014)

In our case though the house is already up for sale ... so if we say we are staying as per part 4 tenancy can the EA then say to us that we must leave at end of lease (and then let house to someone else?)


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## facetious (1 Mar 2014)

yellowroses said:


> In our case though the house is already up for sale ... so if we say we are staying as per part 4 tenancy can the EA then say to us that we must leave at end of lease (and then let house to someone else?)


The notice of Termination served by the landlord must state the reason for the termination of the lease. 

If he does not adhere to the information in the NoT, he is liable. He may not re-let to another for 6 months. 

At the end of the fixed term lease, it would be prudent for the landlord to only have a Part 4 tenancy so that should the house be sold, then the landlord may serve you with a valid NoT with the correct notice period.

Anthough a tenant has the right to remain in the property for a total of 4 years, if he advises the tenant that the house is for sale / sold, then the tenant could not insist on a new fixed term agreement which would secure the property for another year.

If you say you are staying under a Part 4 tenancy, the landlord/EA may serve you with a Notice of Termination at any time but it must give the correct notice period and the reason for the eviction. However, as I mentioned before, the date of the eviction must be after the fixed term has expired. 

Thus, you may expect a NoT at any time - depending on various factors which may include your willingnes to allow viewings (which you do not have to allow) and so that would force the landlord to serve a NoT sooner rather than later. Another factor would be if the landlord would rather a tenant living in the house while it remains unsold - a tenant acting as a caretaker, if you will - and still receiving an income from the property.

Furthermore, a clause in a lease allowing viewings would be illegall and unforceable as it would take away your rights to peaceful and exclusive enjoyment of thr house.


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## yellowroses (3 Mar 2014)

facetious said:


> The notice of Termination served by the landlord must state the reason for the termination of the lease.
> 
> If he does not adhere to the information in the NoT, he is liable. He may not re-let to another for 6 months.
> 
> ...


 

Thank you for the very informative post


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## amethyst (28 Mar 2014)

>> Furthermore, a clause in a lease allowing viewings would be illegall and unforceable as it would take away your rights to peaceful and exclusive enjoyment of thr house.

Is this strictly true?  This seems to imply that the landlord and tenant actually *cannot* get into an enforceable agreement in which the tenant allows viewing of the house,  for the price of a reduction in rent.


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