# Kids driving lessons - leaving car in gear when at traffic lights.



## Ger1966 (20 Mar 2022)

My daughter is doing driving lessons and I'm also bringing her out between lessons.  One thing that she's doing - and is really annoying me - is that when she's stopped at traffic lights, she pulls the hand brake up and leaves the car in gear with the clutch down. 

We've had "discussions" (i.e. arguments) about this. My point is that if her foot slips off the clutch, then she'll rear end the car in front.  She's saying that her instructor told her to do this because she could be marked down if she's slow to take off.   

Is the driving instructor correct?


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## bstop (20 Mar 2022)

Holding the clutch down for extended periods is a bad idea as it causes excessive wear on the clutch release bearing.


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## Sue Ellen (20 Mar 2022)

3 things

From my days of learning (not today nor yesterday  ) I understood too that you were meant to take the car out of gear and put the handbrake on

Not sure if its called AutoSave but in newer cars aren't you meant to do all of these things and the engine cuts out to save fuel until you hit the pedal to move off again

But if the handbrake is on and in good working order surely it would stop her from hitting the car in front as it should stop the car from jerking/moving forward


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## Billo (20 Mar 2022)

The driving instructor is correct. It is the modern way.


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## Páid (20 Mar 2022)

I believe the modern way is that if you are first in line at the traffic light you should be in first gear with your foot on the clutch and the handbrake on.


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## bstop (20 Mar 2022)

So the modern way is to bypass the automatic engine stop and cause unnecessary air pollution in crowded cities and increased environmental damage. They should teach the learners faster foot and arm control. It should only take a fraction of a second to depress the clutch and engage 1st gear.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Mar 2022)

The solution is not to be slow to take off, by watching the light sequence and have turned on the engine, by creeping or whatever.

We have an auto with stop/start and its slow to start off, unless you turn it off, or by creeping. We have a manual in a similar car, same engine, but manual and no stop start and there's a huge different is how fast it moves off with the same driver.


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## MrEarl (20 Mar 2022)

Sounds wrong - I'll continue to put the hand break on, and the car in neutral.


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## Mick22 (20 Mar 2022)

I drive a Ford Kuga automatic and switch off the stop start as often as I think about it. The split second delay when leaving a stop is disconcerting. Also I have had to replace battery after 3 years ...The switch is on the right of the tailgate switch and the default position is On.


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## Clamball (20 Mar 2022)

My kids driving instructors told them to ignore the advice of their parents because things have moved on from their time.  So I would let it go.  Apparently you don’t need to have your hands at the 10 to 2 position anymore or not cross your hands over each other when turning the wheel as all cars now have power steering.  

Plus position on the road seems to be changed, I was always told to stay left in a lane but they are now told to stay closer to the centre line.  Driving in the day with lights is now recommended but it wasn’t mentioned back in my day.

There may be something in getting re-certified with a new driving test every few years given the new technologies in cars.


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## PMU (20 Mar 2022)

Ger1966 said:


> My point is that if her foot slips off the clutch, then she'll rear end the car in front.


You are correct.  But she is more likely to kill or seriously injure a pedestrian who is crossing the road.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Mar 2022)

Have to say I don't agree with some of this stuff. The 10 to 2 was never about strength it was about not crossing your arms and having to release your grip and shuffle mid turn.  Once you start rolling in a car without power steering it goes light enough to turn. if you need to strength to turn a wheel its generally stopped and you need both hands on the same side. Its like pushing or pulling a rope. This stuff was invented by someone who'd never done it. Then repeated Ad nauseam across the web. Eventually the trend sticks.

They say now its safer because if your hands are across the wheel or at the top then the airbag can launch your hand at your face. I don't get that either because at 10 to 2 your hands are not over the airbag. No one racing a car uses 8 and 4 and you don't shuffle your hand position. You use 9 and 3. That should say all you need know about that.

Not that it matters. you drive the way the test wants you, to past the test. Few people drive like they do in the test in the real world. You could argue which is right all day. But one doesn't represent the other.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Mar 2022)

I've been hit from behind and lifted forward more times than I've had an airbag go off.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Mar 2022)

PMU said:


> You are correct.  But she is more likely to kill or seriously injure a pedestrian who is crossing the road.



I'd love to know are they any stats on which is more likely. I would assume hitting a car in front is a lot more common than killing someone.


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## Páid (20 Mar 2022)

Won't the car conk out because the handbrake is on?


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## mathepac (20 Mar 2022)

AlbacoreA said:


> Then repeated *ad museum* across the web.


Things like "Growing up on Fry's" and "If you must sing a song, do sing an Irish song" and "Esso Bue Parrafin"? Any others in that ad museum?


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## Sue Ellen (20 Mar 2022)

Leper said:


> And I'm not slow on take-off.



I remember my son being told by his instructor not to rush off at traffic lights because far too many people go through red lights these days.  I always remember that now when I'm at lights because it is so true especially with Irish drivers/cyclists.


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## Gordon Gekko (20 Mar 2022)

Sue Ellen said:


> I remember my son being told by his instructor not to rush off at traffic lights because far too many people go through red lights these days.  I always remember that now when I'm at lights because it is so true especially with Irish drivers/cyclists.


Yes, you see quite a lot of cars breaking the lights even quite a bit after your lights have turned green.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Mar 2022)

mathepac said:


> Things like "Growing up on Fry's" and "If you must sing a song, sing an Irish song" and "Esso Bue Parrafin"? Any others in that ad museum?



The irony of auto correct  fails in a thread about new tech being better than the auld ways.


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## AlbacoreA (20 Mar 2022)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Yes, you see quite a lot of cars breaking the lights even quite a bit after your lights have turned green.


That's like the old joke...

A man hails a cab, gets in, gives directions and gets going.
Sitting in the back seat, he sees as the cabbie just blows the red light.
Maybe this was accidental” he thought.
Driver runs through another red light.
The man gets all worried and asks “Excuse me, didn’t you just blow 2 red lights in a row?!”.
Don’t worry, I’m a professional” cabbie replies.
There’s a green light at the next intersection and the driver just stops at the light.
The man get all confused and frustrated and yells out ” I don’t understand this! How come you blow red lights and you just stop on the green?!”
The taxi driver replies: “I stopped because there might be another professional crossing the intersection.”


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## Ceist Beag (21 Mar 2022)

Keeping the clutch depressed is bad practice and will result in burning out the clutch. Always put in neutral when stopped at lights and pay attention to the light sequence if you're first in the queue so that you can be ready to go before your lights turn green.


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## Purple (22 Mar 2022)

Clamball said:


> Plus position on the road seems to be changed, I was always told to stay left in a lane but they are now told to stay closer to the centre line.


Probably to protect cyclists as they are the most vulnerable road users.


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## Leo (22 Mar 2022)

Clamball said:


> Plus position on the road seems to be changed, I was always told to stay left in a lane but they are now told to stay closer to the centre line. Driving in the day with lights is now recommended but it wasn’t mentioned back in my day.


More than 30 years since I was learning, but at that stage it was stay to the left of the lane outside of built-up areas. In built-up areas you moved to the right of the lane to lower the risk of hitting pedestrians who might step off a footpath.


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## Peanuts (22 Mar 2022)

Páid said:


> I believe the modern way is that if you are first in line at the traffic light you should be in first gear with your foot on the clutch and the handbrake on.


That's my understanding too. If you're not the first in the queue then you're supposed to put the car into neutral.


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## Baby boomer (24 Mar 2022)

Ger1966 said:


> My daughter is doing driving lessons and I'm also bringing her out between lessons.  One thing that she's doing - and is really annoying me - is that when she's stopped at traffic lights, she pulls the hand brake up and leaves the car in gear with the clutch down.
> 
> We've had "discussions" (i.e. arguments) about this. My point is that if her foot slips off the clutch, then she'll rear end the car in front.  She's saying that her instructor told her to do this because she could be marked down if she's slow to take off.


I'm genuinely shocked and horrified by this advice. Two reasons:

1) Safety.  The obvious risk of foot slipping off clutch.  Ok, there's a backup in terms of handbrake but why erode a primary safety measure (selecting neutral) and rely on the handbrake operating flawlessly every time??  This would not be an acceptable approach in industrial safety and accident prevention.  And as we're talking about learner drivers, confusion and forgetting to engage handbrake can be a factor too.  

2.  Depressing the clutch needlessly causes excessive wear.  Again not so much as perhaps 40 years ago but it's still bad for the clutch.  

So, it may well be the advice currently given by driving schools, but I just find it wrong on so many levels.  At best, it's a technique that might have merit for advanced driving courses only.  I occasionally employ it myself, but even still, if pedestrians approach towards the front of the car, my immediate instinct is to select neutral.  
Primary safety first, always.  Only then do you rely on secondary safety measures like the handbrake.


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## Leper (25 Mar 2022)

The main message I'm getting from this thread is that the average Irish Motorist knows the rules- of-the-road if front windscreen collides with a low flying Algerian turkey which escaped from some zoo. But, only few know the correct procedures when stopped at traffic lights.  And they are only the two mark questions. It gets more interesting on the six mark questions on rules entering, driving on and exiting roundabouts. 

Today is Friday and I am willing to concede that the average Dublin driver pays more attention to the rules of the road than most Cork drivers.


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## gianni (25 Mar 2022)

mathepac said:


> Things like "Growing up on Fry's" and "If you must sing a song, do sing an Irish song" and "Esso Bue Parrafin"? Any others in that ad museum?


Free a nipper....ROIGhT!


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## RetirementPlan (25 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> I2.  Depressing the clutch needlessly causes excessive wear.  Again not so much as perhaps 40 years ago but it's still bad for the clutch.
> 
> So, it may well be the advice currently given by driving schools, but I just find it wrong on so many levels.  At best, it's a technique that might have merit for advanced driving courses only.  I occasionally employ it myself, but even still, if pedestrians approach towards the front of the car, my immediate instinct is to select neutral.
> Primary safety first, always.  Only then do you rely on secondary safety measures like the handbrake.


Does clutch wear relate to the depression movement, or to the holding-it-depressed position? I didn't think any wear would arise from holding it depressed, but I'm far from expert on such things.


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## bstop (25 Mar 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> Does clutch wear relate to the depression movement, or to the holding-it-depressed position? I didn't think any wear would arise from holding it depressed, but I'm far from expert on such things.


When the clutch is held fully depressed the release bearing is spinning and this is causing bearing wear. The release bearing is not designed for continuous operation.
Regular periods of long clutch depression will cause premature failure of the release bearing and a costly repair bill.


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## Baby boomer (25 Mar 2022)

RetirementPlan said:


> Does clutch wear relate to the depression movement, or to the holding-it-depressed position? I didn't think any wear would arise from holding it depressed, but I'm far from expert on such things.


Very good question.  It's actually both, but in different ways.  "Slipping" the clutch is the worst thing you can do and the friction will quickly wear out the clutch plates.  Remember the clutch mediates the force being transmitted from engine to gearbox.  Ideally you want both to be spinning at as similar a speed as possible to minimize friction and wear.   "Holding-it-depressed" means the plates are not in contact so, yes, you can say there's no frictional wear.  BUT holding the clutch down is placing huge pressure on the springy fingers of the pressure plate which will eventually deform and fail.

Either way, it's going to be an entire new clutch!


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## Alkers86 (25 Mar 2022)

If you're first at the lights, for your driving test you should be in gear with the clutch depressed and handbrake on. If you just see the lights turn red, you might stay in neutral for a while before going into gear. If you're not first in the queue, you should be in neutral and handbrake on. If you arrive at a queue of traffic and have to stop but see the light turn green, you might still stay in gear also.

Bascially neutral and handbrake is the standard when waiting but should be in gear when it's nearing your time to move off.

The amount of clutch wear we are talking about here is miniscule.


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## Baby boomer (25 Mar 2022)

The time saved depressing the clutch on green strikes me as the most miniscule part of this equation.  Particularly as the green can be often anticipated if you've got a clear view of the signals and/or pedestrian lights in the perpendicular direction.

Set this miniscule time saving against the possibility of a footslip (especially for a learner) and - on safety grounds alone - it's a no brainer.


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## Leo (25 Mar 2022)

Baby boomer said:


> The time saved depressing the clutch on green strikes me as the most miniscule part of this equation.


The topic here though is what examiners have been told to assess. Legitimate concerns about wear and tear can be used to inform post-test behaviour.


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## Peanuts20 (25 Mar 2022)

Purpose of having the handbrake on is that if you are rear ended, you are likely not to be pushed forward as much as if the handbrake was off. If the handbrake isn't working, then the car isn't fit to be on the road

Purpose of clutch/first gear is to enable the driver to make a smooth and speedy get away at the junction, not fiddling with gears and delaying traffic behind them. 

You should never be anticipating the lights changing, too many idiots in this country see a light changing to Red as being a reason to put the boot down. 

Of course, with more and more automatics on the road, all of this will, in time, go the same way as starting handles


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## Cervelo (25 Mar 2022)

As far as I remember in the Eighties we were told when stopped at traffic lights was to keep the car in neutral and the handbrake on
I don't really remember my self ever really doing that after I passed my test, never saw the need and never burnt out a clutch either
I drive an automatic these days so it's not an issue but I still don't apply the handbrake when stopped at lights
But one thing I do remember from company insurance driving course that I attended in the late nineties was a green light is not an automatic right of way for a driver but rather a proceed with caution if the way is clear and from that day I have always taken an extra second or two to make sure the way is clear to move on. I don't get beeped and nobody seems to mind!!


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## RetirementPlan (25 Mar 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> You should never be anticipating the lights changing, too many idiots in this country see a light changing to Red as being a reason to put the boot down.


The danger is real, though I don't think anticipation is the problem. Even when you've got a solid green, you need to be watching to both sides, just in case.


Peanuts20 said:


> Of course, with more and more automatics on the road, all of this will, in time, go the same way as starting handles


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## Ceist Beag (25 Mar 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> Of course, with more and more automatics on the road, all of this will, in time, go the same way as starting handles


And the choke!


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## Paul O Mahoney (25 Mar 2022)

Same with our 2 mind you they both passed first time. But driving seems more aggressive nowadays.
I'm glad I am unable, my stress levels would be worse.

Being from Cork we were told to leave the car in gear with the handbrake up ,just for parking.  Cork is a hilly place and my first car was a 1977 fiesta with dubious breaks, clutch, no heater, automatic windows always down, but a sunroof........

£450 ........ what a car.


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## losttheplot (25 Mar 2022)

Taking off at traffic lights with a queue behind you is probably one of the most stressful things when learning to drive. The car cuts out, cars start beeping and more panic sets in and then mistakes happen. So it probably removes that aspect.


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## Paul O Mahoney (25 Mar 2022)

losttheplot said:


> Taking off at traffic lights with a queue behind you is probably one of the most stressful things when learning to drive. The car cuts out, cars start beeping and more panic sets in and then mistakes happen. So it probably removes that aspect.


Or a hill start, remember those. Power steering has also helped with the 3 point turn I'd say.


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## losttheplot (25 Mar 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Or a hill start, remember those. Power steering has also helped with the 3 point turn I'd say.


Reversing around the corner was my difficulty, haven't had to do it much


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## Paul O Mahoney (25 Mar 2022)

losttheplot said:


> Reversing around the corner was my difficulty, haven't had to do it much


Forgot that that was one silly requirement, I  don't think I ever did it


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## aristotle (25 Mar 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> Forgot that that was one silly requirement, I  don't think I ever did it


Would help a lot people reversing into car spaces.


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## Paul O Mahoney (26 Mar 2022)

aristotle said:


> Would help a lot people reversing into car spaces.


True. I simply cannot understand why people do this though.


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## Cervelo (26 Mar 2022)

aristotle said:


> Would help a lot people reversing into car spaces.


I remember years ago when I had friends with cars and they were trying to reverse into to spaces more than a few times I had to say 
"Stop what you're doing, Get out of the car and let me do the parking"
There is nothing more annoying when sitting in a car behind somebody who takes forever to reverse into a space especially the ones where the car doesn't fit but their going to do their damndest to make it fit


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## AlbacoreA (26 Mar 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> True. I simply cannot understand why people do this though.


Because putting the rear wheels in first gives you superior manoeuvrability. But also better situational awareness. Unless the space is angled to be forwards only. 

Reversing around a corner is useful training  in any situation where your way forward is blocked. Not just parking.


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## Ceist Beag (26 Mar 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> True. I simply cannot understand why people do this though.


It's obvious, it's so much better to move forward out of a parking space than reversing out.


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## Baby boomer (26 Mar 2022)

If parking spaces are perpendicular to the road, you should reverse in if possible.  Simply because you will be driving forwards when you're leaving the space and that's a lot safer than reversing into traffic. 
So I was taught 45 years ago and it remains true today.  

If the parking spaces are parallel to the road, then you reverse parallel park.  It never ceases to amaze me that there are fully licensed drivers who haven't mastered this simple skill.


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## AlbacoreA (26 Mar 2022)

Most of the parking ease comes from positioning the non steering axle first. It's not subjective its physics or such.


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## PMU (26 Mar 2022)

Ger1966 said:


> My daughter is doing driving lessons and I'm also bringing her out between lessons.  One thing that she's doing - and is really annoying me - is that when she's stopped at traffic lights, she pulls the hand brake up and leaves the car in gear with the clutch down.


Another issue here is if the instructor has told your kid to cover the break pedal and the quickest way to do this is to already have your right foot just over the break. But if the instructor is focusing on speed of moving off, your kid is probably covering the accelerator.  And in an emergency, e.g.  a hit from behind, it just takes longer to move your foot from the accelerator to the break and depress it, than to depress the break when you are already covering it.  Of course, your kid may have a super fast reaction time, but not everybody does.  That's why the car should be in neutral, the handbreak on, and the driver's foot covering the break.


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## Leo (28 Mar 2022)

Paul O Mahoney said:


> True. I simply cannot understand why people do this though.


As above, when approaching a space you have the opportunity to observe all around to ensure it's safe to reverse in. and facing out means you don't have to contend with little visibility as to what's approaching from the sides. 

Remember, if you're reversing out of a space and another driver who isn't paying attention hits you, it is you who will be deemed to be at fault.


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## Peanuts20 (28 Mar 2022)

Cervelo said:


> I remember years ago when I had friends with cars and they were trying to reverse into to spaces more than a few times I had to say
> "Stop what you're doing, Get out of the car and let me do the parking"
> There is nothing more annoying when sitting in a car behind somebody who takes forever to reverse into a space especially the ones where the car doesn't fit but their going to do their damndest to make it fit


 What's really annoying is when they reverse in and park so close to your drivers door that you can't open it. I had to get in my passenger seat a couple of weeks back, clamber over the gear stick to get into the drivers seat and I'm not a small guy. Plonker who'd parked next to me had plenty of room to tidy up how he had parked


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## T McGibney (28 Mar 2022)

Leo said:


> Remember, if you're reversing out of a space and another driver who isn't paying attention hits you, it is you who will be deemed to be at fault.


Is this actually true though? My instinct tells me it couldn't be?


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## RetirementPlan (28 Mar 2022)

Peanuts20 said:


> What's really annoying is when they reverse in and park so close to your drivers door that you can't open it. I had to get in my passenger seat a couple of weeks back, clamber over the gear stick to get into the drivers seat and I'm not a small guy. Plonker who'd parked next to me had plenty of room to tidy up how he had parked


True, but you don't know who or what was parked in the next space when he was parking.


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## Leo (28 Mar 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Is this actually true though? My instinct tells me it couldn't be?


Yeah, I once offered to be witness after seeing a similar incident. Lady had started reversing out of a space, about 1/3 of the way out before noticing an approaching car and stopped. I could see the driver of the other car was looking at an unfolded map spread across the steering wheel, he didn't even see her car and drove into it. He was quite apologetic on the scene admitting he was reading a map, and everyone assumed it was an open-shut situation and his insurance would cover everything. Lady rang me a couple of weeks later thanking me for offering to help but saying her insurance company informed her that they would be settling against her and this was standard practice as he had right-of-way. She said she had spoken to a friendly Garda who confirmed as much too.


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## Leper (28 Mar 2022)

White lines in a carpark don't mean much to some motorists. Fortunately, the majority of motorists observe common sense and the obvious rules. But, there is an element who think they can park anywhere, any time they feel. Largely, they go unchallenged mainly because they know nobody is going to challenge them. That is the kind of people we are. We put up with the shortcomings of other drivers without as much as raising an eyebrow. We put up with people treble parked at schools in case their offspring will have to walk 20 metres more.

But, then there's me; fed up with turning the other cheek. Take up two parking spaces or park with no recognition of others and I'll park immediately next to you even if it means you cannot open your car door or leave the spot without hitting something. I have become merciless. You're stuck in that space until I feel like moving my humble car. I don't care who you are, where you're from, where you're going or if it's a BMW or a Panda you'll have to deal with me first.

. . . . and it makes me feel good!


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## Cervelo (28 Mar 2022)

Leper said:


> But, then there's me...


I'm seeing another side of you, Dark Leper


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## T McGibney (28 Mar 2022)

Leo said:


> Yeah, I once offered to be witness after seeing a similar incident. Lady had started reversing out of a space, about 1/3 of the way out before noticing an approaching car and stopped. I could see the driver of the other car was looking at an unfolded map spread across the steering wheel, he didn't even see her car and drove into it. He was quite apologetic on the scene admitting he was reading a map, and everyone assumed it was an open-shut situation and his insurance would cover everything. Lady rang me a couple of weeks later thanking me for offering to help but saying her insurance company informed her that they would be settling against her and this was standard practice as he had right-of-way. She said she had spoken to a friendly Garda who confirmed as much too.


Not doubting you for a second, but if I were her, I'd have sought legal advice on the insurance company's decision here.


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## Leper (28 Mar 2022)

Cervelo said:


> I'm seeing another side of you, Dark Leper


Was it Willie O'Dea said "It's never the wrong time to do the right thing"? - I've spent years putting up with motorists parked and blocking our front gate which prevents every member of our family driving in or out. Signs like "No Parking Please -, Gate in Use 24 hours" mean nothing to some. We live in a cul-de-sac and it is handy parking for anybody taking one of three bus routes leading to Cork's City Centre. Only last Friday morning a guy ran off when I asked him to move his car. He pretended he didn't hear me and vanished. Later our daughter couldn't enter the driveway so I parked her car within an inch of his front bumper. Mrs Lep returned later and couldn't enter the driveway either so I parked her car within an inch of the silly boy's back bumper. I went for my daily walk at circa 5.10pm and left a note on "aul stock's" windscreen for him to ring me which he did. 

He rang and swore at me from a height - I had walked at least a mile and a half by then. When I sardonically said "I haven't heard an apology from you yet" he became more verbally aggressive. I asked him to cool down and ring me in another hour and if he were more civil he could be on his way after I returned. He had no choice and the cards were stacked in my favour. I don't think he'll block our driveway again.


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## Leo (28 Mar 2022)

T McGibney said:


> Not doubting you for a second, but if I were her, I'd have sought legal advice on the insurance company's decision here.


She may well have, but once you start the claim process, the insurance companies are entitled to settle as they chose. Looking at the legislation, you must yield to a car already travelling on a road, so reversing or driving into the path of another vehicle still puts you in the wrong.


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## LS400 (28 Mar 2022)

There was an actual well performing scam a a few years ago; where a driver would prowl the shopping centre car park’s looking for a car reversing out of a space; while the prowler would slow to a stop and becon you out, as normally happens, prowler would then mover forward hitting your car.. Insurers were paying out as the reversing car stands no chance in court.

As was said earlier, you can be responsible for an accident, but not a fault, crazy.


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## Ger1966 (14 Apr 2022)

So the good news is that my daughter passed her test (on the second attempt!).  Insurance is due for renewal in October, so hopefully the premium will come down.  Do I need to update my policy details now to show that she's no longer a learner driver or wait until renewal?


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## Leo (14 Apr 2022)

Ger1966 said:


> Do I need to update my policy details now to show that she's no longer a learner driver or wait until renewal?


Update them now, they may offer a rebate due to the lower risk profile.


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## Billo (14 Apr 2022)

Well Ger.
During the test did she follow the instructors advice or not ?


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## Ger1966 (15 Apr 2022)

Billo said:


> Well Ger.
> During the test did she follow the instructors advice or not ?


I didn't ask @Billo , but I know I'm right


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## Ger1966 (21 Apr 2022)

Leo said:


> Update them now, they may offer a rebate due to the lower risk profile.


Thanks @Leo I submitted her updated licence and got notification this morning that I'll be getting a refund of €29.88 (not sure how they calculate this), but still nice to get something back.


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