# Trackers other lenders



## rodger (29 Jul 2015)

The news of ptsb redress scheme hasn't been greeted yet on this forum.

So I wanted to mention it and also ask if people think other lenders are culpable?

I know I think they are.

They are fighting consumers one by one.

And consumers are faced with looking to the ombudsman for justice.

But the lack of transparency allows lots of cases to go unfairly dismissed by lender and unsupported by the ombudsman.

If one consumer gets justice by using the ombudsman process is there any reason to believe other victims of the lender are reinstated?

The two big injustices being perpetrated on borrowers are the rip off variable rates and the refusal to reinstate trackers.


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## Brendan Burgess (29 Jul 2015)

Hi rodger 

The ptsb issue was a systemic issue. People who broke out of fixed were not properly advised that they would lose their trackers. When they asked if there was a penalty, they were told that there was not.

If the Ombudsman upholds a recurring complaint with a lender, he is supposed to refer it to the Central Bank. The Central Bank may investigate it or not as it sees fit.

If you have evidence of a systemic complaint against a particular lender, then make a complaint to the Central Bank.

Brendan


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## rodger (8 Aug 2015)

Brendan

Here is an example of my own please see attached offer from AIB

I was offered a tracker with an option to fix which I did and subsequently lost my tracker !!

The complaint is with the Ombudsman for a number of years,  still no resolution.

There must be others affected similarly.


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## Joe_90 (8 Aug 2015)

Is this a question of when is a tracker not a tracker?

It says "Tracker Home Mortgage" but says


> A variable interest rate moves in line with general moves in interest rates



Best of luck with it.


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## rodger (8 Aug 2015)

Interesting you should notice about variable interest rate.

It was a tracker mortgage but that is how Aib described it.

In other words I started out on tracker as above.  

Tracker can be described as a form of variable.

What I don't understand is how the Aib can renege on the agreement clearly says 1.1% above ecb


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## rodger (9 Aug 2015)

Brendan,

When you say: make a complaint to the Central Bank: what are the contact details?

This is different to the Ombudsman ?

If the Ombudsman does not rule in my favour then it's Systemic ?

Regards,


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## ClubMan (9 Aug 2015)

How come the complaint is with the FSO for a number of years?
I thought that they generally made a ruling one way or another quicker than that?


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## Brendan Burgess (9 Aug 2015)

Hi Rodger 

There is nothing in that letter which suggests that you have a right to a tracker mortgage after the fixed period ends. 

The initial interest rate was a tracker rate. 

What will decide whether you get the tracker back or not will be the full loan offer and any documentation you signed when you fixed the rate. If that document said, you will be put on a standard variable rate after the fixed rate ends, then your case is very weak.

If the document did not make it clear what rate you would be put on, then you might have a chance. 

If you win the case with the Ombudsman, then you might want to bring it to the attention of the CB.  The Central Bank regulates financial institutions - The Ombudsman adjudicates on individual complaints.  If you bring it to the attention of the CB, they may investigate it, but they will not give you any feedback. 

Brendan


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## rodger (10 Aug 2015)

Excellent response Brendan.

I understand the documentation signed when doing the fix is also important.

Thankfully that makes no mention of "standard variable rate".

So I believe I have a solid case.


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## rodger (14 Aug 2015)

If and when I win my case that will mean the problem was Systemic.

What surprises me is how little activity on this forum in light of the ptsb revelations.

Maybe everyone who got there tracker back has put it behind them. What diu they care.

Anyone who didn't get it back at this stage has just given up.


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## corktim (15 Aug 2015)

Hi Roger

Plenty of us out there but until the central bank decide to back us up its us against the banks and they have the money to fight this.

What the banks have done is underhanded and totally wrong.


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## rodger (1 Sep 2015)

Finally it seems the tide has turned for tracker holders of Aib.

Starting to wonder now what compensation I will be getting?

I see figures of 25k and 50k mentioned in the media.

Next up BOI. They need to be next.


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## rodger (1 Sep 2015)

Brendan

The Aib situation:  would that be "systemic?

Looks like it.

I'm affected.

I'm also affected by Bank of Ireland.

Brendan, big thanks to yourself for putting me in touch with financial adviser almost 2 years ago.

Bank of Ireland: that's presumably systemic also.

I think I will write to central bank.

Regards
Paul


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## rodger (1 Sep 2015)

When I see EU response to Standard variable rates in Ireland,
I'm glad I'm in with a chance to get my tracker back


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## Gerry Canning (1 Sep 2015)

rodger.

Maybe I am 100% wrong , but if documemtation says you can have a Tracker Rate but the documentation does not specify that the Rate is ECB + say 1% ie a good rate .
Then AIB can give you a tracker of ECB + 3% = same as Variable rate.

Just because {Tracker} is used doesn,t necessarily mean a lower rate than variable, does it ?


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## rodger (1 Sep 2015)

The original loan conditions should apply.
The terms were:
Here is a tracker loan. You can fix at any time for the lifetime of the loan.

Let's wait and see. I have a good feeling about this.


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## rodger (1 Sep 2015)

Next I just need to get my BOI tracker back


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## rodger (6 Sep 2015)

Excellent article in todays Indo by Charlie Weston 

http://www.independent.ie/business/...e-tracker-trickery-of-the-banks-31505182.html

Central bank should probe tracker trickery.

The way I see it it's understandable the banks would try to trick and cheat customers off their trackers.

But there should be protections in place for customers.

Is it the FSO Ombudsman to blame? The central bank? The politicians?

Because when these issues were raised about 5 or 6 years ago the Ombudsman failed to act. Or gave the wrong decision.

Had the Ombudsman been more on-the-ball we wouldn't be where we are today.

The awful situation the PTSB customers find themselves in. The awful situation AIB customers are in.

And this is only going to cost the banks more in the long run with legal action, compensation etc. 

And Bank of Ireland they are still cheating some customers.


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## oysterman (10 Sep 2015)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Rodger
> 
> There is nothing in that letter which suggests that you have a right to a tracker mortgage after the fixed period ends.
> 
> ...


I don't have a dog in this fight but I think the OP may have a stronger case in equity than you think.

Clearly this is only the summary sheet of the mortgage offer and there was presumably supporting documentation furnished with it which might strengthen the bank's case.

However, the OP was offered a tracker rate mortgage with an offer to fix the rate at any time. Any such fix by definition expires at the end of the fixed period. But the OP and the bank still have a mortgage contract at the end of that period. Unless it is made absolutely clear in the documentation executing a fixed rate period that the original mortgage contract is being amended by the signing of the fixed rate offer to alter the nature of the rate following the fixed period, then it seems to me that the tracker is still in play.

But even if it is made clear in a fixed rate offer that the tracker rate is being withdrawn, I think there's still an argument. Banks can't offer mortgages to people and execute them without the customer receiving legal advice, can they? How then can they amend the fundamental nature of this mortgage (i.e. that it is a tracker rate mortgage) without insisting the customer take legal advice? I recall fixing a mortgage rate many years ago but have no recollection of my solicitor being involved.

Am I missing something?


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## rodger (13 Sep 2015)

Thanks Oysterman for your contribution

To help clarify matter I will now quote the "Particulars of Offer of Mortgage Loan"

My summary of how the rates were applied: 
I started out on 3.5 below: variable rate

I opted to fix for three years (thus moved 3.4)

At the end of the three year period the natural course was to return to 3.5 unless I was to fix again.
There was no other option stated in the legal terms and conditions.

So I started out on 3.5 and then returned to 3.5 

By the way the reason the media is full of stories such as Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation
and Ross Maguire is for the simple reason: there is a legal basis for the return of the tracker.

Original terms:


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## rodger (14 Sep 2015)

Gosh

I provided exact wording of original terms

And not one person has commented good bad or indifferent.

I thought at least someone would have a similar tale


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## peteb (15 Sep 2015)

What exactly are we looking at? Your letter of offer where it makes no mention of any return to a tracker rate?


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## rodger (15 Sep 2015)

You're not looking at it then because what it says is after the fix I will return to same rate as before


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## peteb (15 Sep 2015)

Can't say I see that.  I must be losing it so.


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## rodger (15 Sep 2015)

To try to explain 

I started on 3.5 which as we all know from the introduction is a tracker

Then in 3.2 it says at the end of any fixed rate period the loan will revert to a variable rate interest rate mortgage loan.

(Which is defined in 3.5)


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## Gerry Canning (15 Sep 2015)

rodger.

What I see from your quote  is 1.10% over tracker rate.
So if AIB,s tracker rate is  for example 2% 
Then yours should be ...................................2% cost of funds + 1.10% over tracker  = 3.1%

................
So am I right in saying that if AIB have charged you more than the above , you have been mistreated.?and AIB have not honoured the contract?


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## rodger (15 Sep 2015)

Hey Ger

At the time in 2005 the ecb was 2%

And I was tied to that but at a margin of 1.1%

So it's a regular tracker.

Yes I have been mistreated because they reneged on the terms by putting me in standard variable rate in 2010


I'm surprised more similar Aib customers are not joining in with support.

Regards


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## oysterman (16 Sep 2015)

rodger said:


> ...So it's a regular tracker.
> 
> Yes I have been mistreated because they reneged on the terms by putting me in standard variable rate in 2010
> 
> ...



I'm not entirely clear how a chorus of AIB customers will help your situation.

You say that you've had a complaint with the Ombudsman for a number of years. You really need to put pressure on the Ombudsman. I like your case (on the evidence you've shared here) but I don't think sitting back and waiting for years (while, as you say, speculating on the compensation you might receive) is your best course of action.

I would certainly be inclined to take legal advice at this point to try to speed up the Ombudsman's determination of your complaint.


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## rodger (16 Sep 2015)

I am awaiting the ombudsman judgement with some trepidation

I would like to hear how others fared.

Will I then need to go to the high court if ombudsman ruling not favourable


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## rodger (16 Sep 2015)

You're correct I'm looking for a chorus of support.

I am trying to raise more awareness because I firmly believe PTSB caved in due to public pressure.

The same should happen at Aib.

And I'm also affected by BOI.

I'm looking for the Aib and BOI redress schemes

Same as PTSB.

And I am looking for compensation


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## bmkearney (16 Sep 2015)

Rodger how did you get on with your BOI tracker mortgage???
Regards,
Brian.


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## rodger (16 Sep 2015)

Brian

The BOI case is still in the pipeline.
It is with the ombudsman.

Regards


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