# Own and rent a Property, Rent a Property



## dubkildare (25 Jun 2021)

Hi 

I own a house and currently have this house rented out as I am working in another county. I rent another house in this county. The rent received and paid are the almost identical ( The rent I pay is slightly more) so is maneageble. My question is what or am I obliged to make a tax return on income from my own property.


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## cremeegg (25 Jun 2021)

Yes you are.

The rent you receive is taxable income, the rent you pay is not a deductible expense.


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## dubkildare (25 Jun 2021)

cremeegg said:


> Yes you are.
> 
> The rent you receive is taxable income, the rent you pay is not a deductible expense.


Thanks, my sister is renting my house. I often return and stay at this address and have a room in the house that's not used by anyone bar me. Would it be possible to declare my sister as a rent a room.


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## PaddyBloggit (25 Jun 2021)

dubkildare said:


> ... my sister is renting my house.





dubkildare said:


> Would it be possible to declare my sister as a rent a room.



em.... 

What do you think yourself?


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## NoRegretsCoyote (25 Jun 2021)

If the house you own remains your main residence (basically the place where your friends and family would expect to find you) then you can rent a room to anyone up to a ceiling of €14k per year without incurring a tax liability.

From Revenue:



> Sole or main residence​Your main residence is your home for most of the year and where friends would expect to find you. You do not have to own the property to claim relief.



But if your main residence is a rental property and you let your own house then you are liable to income tax on the rental profits.

So I think your issue comes down to how much time you spend in your rental house and how much in the house you own.


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## Thirsty (25 Jun 2021)

Keep a room for your own use in the house you own.
Keep the bills in your name.
Ensure all post goes to the property you own.
You live elsewhere temporarily due to work demands & stay in the house you own to socialise / meet friends.

I am not a tax expert, but it would be my view that the above would be sufficent to meet the rent-a-room requirements.


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## Sarenco (25 Jun 2021)

Thirsty said:


> I am not a tax expert, but it would be my view that the above would be sufficent to meet the rent-a-room requirements


I would be stunned if Revenue agreed with you.

The OP works in another country - the house being rented to his sister is pretty clearly not his home for most of the year, where friends would expect to find him.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (25 Jun 2021)

Sarenco said:


> The OP works in another country


He said "county" 



Thirsty said:


> I am not a tax expert, but it would be my view that the above would be sufficent to meet the rent-a-room requirements.


An actual tax expert might disagree with you.


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## Sarenco (25 Jun 2021)

NoRegretsCoyote said:


> He said "county"


Ooops!  It probably doesn't change the substantive point though - the house is pretty clearly not his sole or main residence.


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## Thirsty (25 Jun 2021)

OP is temporarily accomodated elsewhere for work.

The home he owns is still his primary residence.  Property is occupied on a sharing arrangement.  Sister has legal status of guest not tenant.

No point in making things more complicated than they need to be.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (25 Jun 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Sister has legal status of guest not tenant.


Except she's paying him rent.

You can't stretch the definition of "guest" to someone who lives in your house full time and pays you money for it.


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## Thirsty (25 Jun 2021)

It's not "stretching" anything. 

If you rent a room in your home, the person to whom you are renting has the legal status of a guest, they have no right of occupancy; they can be asked to leave at any time. Payment of rent doesn't come into it.

A tenant with sole use of the property on the other hand does have rights of occupancy.


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## Sarenco (25 Jun 2021)

Thirsty said:


> The home he owns is still his primary residence.  Property is occupied on a sharing arrangement.  Sister has legal status of guest not tenant


The test is whether the house is the person’s sole or main residence for most of the year and where his friends would expect to find him.

The OP has told us that he is renting in another county and there is no mention of this being a temporary arrangement.

To be frank, your advice is reckless and based on facts that you have just invented.


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## Thirsty (25 Jun 2021)

a. This is the internet

b. I am not being paid; I am not 'advising' in a professional capacity.

c. There is zero risk here to life or limb; the charge of "recklessness" is more than a little overstrained.

d. Be careful of high horses; serious accidents can occur.


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## Brendan Burgess (25 Jun 2021)

Thirsty said:


> a. This is the internet



Hi Thirsty

This is askaboutmoney.com

We do try to get stuff right and where it's wrong or misleading, to correct it as quickly as possible, as Sarenco has done.

Brendan


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## Thirsty (25 Jun 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi Thirsty
> 
> This is askaboutmoney.com
> 
> ...


Differing opinions were already expressed; transposing that opinion to a charge of "recklessness" is what I object to.


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## Sarenco (25 Jun 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Differing opinions were already expressed; transposing that opinion to a charge of "recklessness" is what I object to.


You are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Offering advice based on invented facts, without any heed for the consequences of that advice, is the very definition of recklessness.


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## ArthurMcB (26 Jun 2021)

Isnt thirsty broadly correct though:

-IF sister is lodging and 
-IF she states that her owned house is her primary residence and 
-if her post goes there and 
-if bills are in her name?

Two big IFs but if and only if thoses IFs are facts then i would say Thirsty is right. 

Keep er simples as my great granny used to say


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## Sarenco (26 Jun 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> Isnt thirsty broadly correct though:


No.

The house would, as a matter of fact, have to be the OP’s sole or main residence for most of the year and where his friends would expect to find him.

Simply “stating” that the house is the OP’s sole or main residence or that the sister is merely a lodger isn’t enough.


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## ArthurMcB (26 Jun 2021)

But if she is a lodger and if it is their main residence then thirsty is correct. The OP obviously will know this and will need to decide her course of action based on knowing this. I have no idea what the actual facts are which is why i inserted a few ifs here and there. Keep er simple boys


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## Gordon Gekko (26 Jun 2021)

I thought I’d add my tuppence to this trainwreck.

In my view, Sarenco is 100% correct.

The OP lives in the other county.

‘Rent a Room’ doesn’t apply, and to contend otherwise is tax evasion.


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## NoRegretsCoyote (26 Jun 2021)

ArthurMcB said:


> But if she is a lodger and if it is their main residence then thirsty is correct.


But not likely on the basis of the facts presented which are:

1) OP works in another county and rents a house there. People generally live where they work.
2) OP's sister pays rent to him to live there, almost as much as the house the OP rents


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## PaddyBloggit (26 Jun 2021)

dubkildare said:


> ... my sister is renting my house.





dubkildare said:


> Would it be possible to declare my sister as a rent a room.





ArthurMcB said:


> Keep er simple boys



It is.


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## Cervelo (26 Jun 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Be careful of high horses; serious accidents can occur.


Without getting on my high horse about tax evasion, there is to me a very simple work around for this problem
It's not perfect and there might be something that I'm not thinking about or am aware of.
Let the sister rent the the property that the OP needs for work ??


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## Brendan Burgess (26 Jun 2021)

That is very clever. 

Is it tax planning or tax evasion? 

If I own a house in Dublin and you own a house in Galway, and we house swap, while retaining ownership. 

Am I supposed to declare the notional rent? 

Brendan


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## Thirsty (26 Jun 2021)

OP needs to clarify, but my understanding from the post is:

OP owns property in BallyGoBackwards.  Sibling is paying rent to OP on a house sharing arrangement, sibling does not have sole occupancy.

OP is paying rent in BallyGoForwards for accomodation for work reasons. OP does not own a second property in BallyGoForwards.

I took it from the OP that this was a temporary arrangement; though OP did not use that expression.

It would be my belief if OP meets the conditions I outlined, rent a room can be applied.

Note: if the revenue condition was that to avail of rent a room you must own or occupy or have access to only one roof over your head, why add the explanation that the qualifying home is where your friends & family expect to find you?

Perhaps the OP can clarify.


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## Sarenco (26 Jun 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Note: if the revenue condition was that to avail of rent a room you must own or occupy or have access to only one roof over your head, why add the explanation that the qualifying home is where your friends & family expect to find you?


Eh, because that’s not the Revenue condition.  

Again, to avail of the relief the property must be the OP’s sole or main residence for most of the year, where his friends would expect to find him.  There is nothing in the rules about owning, occupying or having access to only one property.

So, in addition to inventing facts, you are now inventing rules!


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## Thirsty (26 Jun 2021)

Sarenco said:


> Eh, because that’s not the Revenue condition.
> 
> Again, to avail of the relief the property must be the OP’s sole or main residence for most of the year, where his friends would expect to find him.  There is nothing in the rules about owning, occupying or having access to only one property.


I agree, there is nothing in the rules about an owner having access to more than one property. 

So the OP making use of temporary accomodation for work reasons is not, I believe, contrary to the spirit of the rent-a-room relief.


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## Sarenco (26 Jun 2021)

Thirsty said:


> So the OP making use of temporary accomodation for work reasons is not, I believe, contrary to the spirit of the rent-a-room relief.


And we’re back to inventing facts.

How do you know the OP is “making use of temporary accommodation”?

Once again, all that matters is whether the rented house is the OP’s sole or main residence for most of the year, where his friends would expect to find him.


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## Thirsty (26 Jun 2021)

Read my post #26 @Sarenco


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## Sarenco (26 Jun 2021)

Thirsty said:


> Read my post #26 @Sarenco


Have done.  And?


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## Cervelo (29 Jun 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> If I own a house in Dublin and you own a house in Galway, and we house swap, while retaining ownership.
> 
> Am I supposed to declare the notional rent?


I wouldn't have a clue Brendan, and I hazard a guess that even Revenue wouldn't have a simple answer to it either.

But in relation to the OPs first question, Yes they most definitely are required to make a tax return for the rental income
This is basic tax knowledge and the OP should know this!!
The second question regarding the rent a room scheme also I believe needs a yearly tax return to declare this non taxable income
and this is where they might get a nasty surprise if revenue have cause to investigate the declarations on the tax return,
in my opinion and I feel the majority of people would agree that the current setup the OP has with his sister would not pass the requirements that are needed to avail of the "rent a room scheme".
My work around on the other hand removes the taxable income (rent) from the equation if the sister rents a property for her brother
Is this taxable, yes I think it is through gift tax between siblings but I would think/hope (maybe naively) revenue would turn a blind eye to it in the short term but It's a long time since I've dealt with revenue so not in any way sure how they would view this arrangement
Another option is the sister rents a room in the OPs rented property and between them they occupy OPs house to satisfy insurance requirements


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