# Parking Fine Dilemma



## quarterfloun (10 Apr 2007)

First of all let me state my absolute guilt to this offence. I completely forgot to buy a ticket from the machine as I normally avoid going into town.

Now the last time I was in town I had one of those scratch off disk thingys however there are now some of these solar powered devices that you put money in and out pops a wee square ticket.

I have been charged with "12 Parking a vehicle in a disc parking place without displaying a valid parking disc.;"

Here is my question....As parking discs are no longer available (you used to buy them in the shops in a book of 10) is this still a valid charge?

You see I am so cheesed off with all the complicated rules that one has to live by to just exist I feel like Don Quixote chasing windmills but I will not let the rulemakes off the hook if they have not got it right - after all I pay my taxes for these muppets to get it right first time.


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## RedStix (10 Apr 2007)

As far as i know, Disk parking is still valid in some areas

Disc parking operates outside the central zone and in some suburbs in cities and large towns. Many urban areas are divided into zones for traffic management purposes. The central zone will take in the city or town centre where the demand for parking is highest and the parking fees will be more expensive. *There will be signs erected in areas where disc parking is in operation giving details of the hours the scheme is in operation, the maximum parking time and the parking fees*. Books of parking discs can be purchased in newsagents or in shops displaying a "parking discs sold here" sign.  Discs are valid for one hour and you can only park in a disc parking area for 2 hours. Discs are usually sold in books of ten and will cost around 4 euro (again, charges for disc parking can vary greatly, depending on the area). 

I just took this off the Citizens Information website. You should look at the rest of the content on the following link http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...nd-parking/parking_fines_and_vehicle_clamping


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## ClubMan (10 Apr 2007)

Why not ask a solicitor for a professional opinion on your chances of beating this rap? Even though I'm not one I would imagine that they are slim. Especially since you have admitted to _"absolute guilt" _in your own words.


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## bond-007 (10 Apr 2007)

Is there an offence listed on the ticket similar to "Parking without paying a fee"? If so you may be in the clear. I have a feeling that 12 may be a catch all offence. Let me know excatly what is on it.


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## bond-007 (10 Apr 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Why not ask a solicitor for a professional opinion on your chances of beating this rap? Even though I'm not one I would imagine that they are slim. Especially since you have admitted to _"absolute guilt" _in your own words.


That don't mean your guilty in the eyes of the law.


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## quarterfloun (11 Apr 2007)

A disc is round so irrespective of whether I paid or surely the charge is incorrect. 

Were I charged with "drunk in charge" but actually off my face on drugs surely a solicitor would say "M'Lud, my client was off 'is face on drugs not drink" and M'Lud would chuck it out for incorrect charge brought. I might have a different charge brought but would you convict a man for murder if he robbed a sweet shop?

The car had no disc on it but then no discs are available - only squares!

The charge is "12 Parking a vehicle in a disc parking place without displaying a valid parking disc.;"


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## Dreamerb (11 Apr 2007)

Let me get this straight: you didn't pay for your parking, you were caught, and you're trying to evade the charge because the parking token you would have obtained had you properly done so would have had more corners than is implied by the noted offence? 

Murder versus sweetshop robbery doesn't appear the most apt analogy here.

But if we're going in for pedantry, it's _tilting_ at windmills, not chasing.


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## ubiquitous (12 Apr 2007)

How much is the fine? Will you get advice from your solicitor for this price? If so you're doing well...


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## Thrifty1 (12 Apr 2007)

Am i understanding this correctly are you querying the wording of the offense - as in a "disc" is something round and the ticket was square.

If so a disc for the purposes of this section, means a document which displays the time, date, etc and can be of any shape, round, square, etc.

So, no just pay the fine and buy the ticket next time.


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## quarterfloun (13 Apr 2007)

I know I've done wrong, I know I've got to pay. None of that is an issue. I want to know why a disc can be a square in the eyes of the law and also why the law does not relect the offence?

I don't need moralistic guidance or anything along those grounds just pure simple observation as to how the law can be so definitive in some areas and criminals are set free on technicalites but our legislators cannot tell the difference between a disc and a square.

So as a legal & financial issue I'm asking the question "Should I challenge the validity of the charge based on the inaccuracy of the charge and sloppiness of legislation".


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## ClubMan (13 Apr 2007)

quarterfloun said:


> So as a legal & financial issue I'm asking the question "Should I challenge the validity of the charge based on the inaccuracy of the charge and sloppiness of legislation".


From a purely financial standpoint I would say no for the reasons mentioned by _ubiquitous _and others above. By challenging it you stand to lose more than you will gain in purely financial terms.


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## quarterfloun (13 Apr 2007)

But this is not about the money..........


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## ClubMan (13 Apr 2007)

quarterfloun said:


> But this is not about the money..........


Eh? 


quarterfloun said:


> So as a legal *& financial issue *...


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## Dreamerb (13 Apr 2007)

quarterfloun said:


> I know I've done wrong, I know I've got to pay. None of that is an issue.


Huh? Then why, if you don't mind my asking, are you talking about having the charge struck out? 



quarterfloun said:


> I want to know why a disc can be a square in the eyes of the law and also why the law does not relect the offence?


You're making several assumptions here which might or might not be borne out by a little research, but I think you'll probably find that the issue is covered by bye-laws passed by your local authority. 



quarterfloun said:


> I don't need moralistic guidance or anything along those grounds just pure simple observation as to how the law can be so definitive in some areas and criminals are set free on technicalites but our legislators cannot tell the difference between a disc and a square.


Oh, so loaded with assumptions. As I said, it's probably local authority bye-laws and therefore not a matter for the legislature, _and _it's a civil rather than a criminal offence (which is an important distinction). If illegal parking were an arrestable offence for which you could be imprisoned, the procedural and evidential standards would very properly be much higher. 

I'm not trying to be moralistic: I simply think it would be the height of absurdity to seek to have an offence struck out on the basis of the number of corners the relevant parking token would have had, when there is absolutely no issue as to whether you have parked illegally. 



quarterfloun said:


> So as a legal & financial issue I'm asking the question "Should I challenge the validity of the charge based on the inaccuracy of the charge and sloppiness of legislation".


As a financial issue, certainly not: it would cost you a great deal in time and stress (which have economically quantifiable values) as well as money. As a legal issue, are you asking if you'd be successful? Don't know, but you might not be.

I don't think this entire issue is worth getting worked up about, but if it really bugs you that much, I'd suggest checking whether it's a bye-law issue. If so, you could send a letter to your local councillor(s) providing a polite critique of their corner-counting abilities...


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## Thrifty1 (13 Apr 2007)

> I know I've done wrong, I know I've got to pay. None of that is an issue. *I want to know why a disc can be a square in the eyes of the law* and also why the law does not relect the offence?


 
Because a disc does not mean "round" in the eyes of the law it mean a doucment, and can be any shape.


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## Allen (16 Apr 2007)

When my computer had floppy disks they were not round.


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## ClubMan (16 Apr 2007)

Actually they were but the casing around them was square! 

[broken link removed]


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## Dreamerb (16 Apr 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Actually they were but the casing around them was square!


Mmhm, I'd had a thought in that direction before recalling that of course the readable bit - the "disc" itself - was round. 

Perhaps in this case, however, we could conclude that correct parking "disc" in this case is simply dispensed with extra paper surrounding it making it appear rectangular?


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## ubiquitous (16 Apr 2007)

Not much chance of proper e-government and/or paperless regulation in this country is people are to challenge laws on the basis of technicalities as absurd as that described above. Myles na gCopaleen would have been proud...


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## bond-007 (16 Apr 2007)

People have gotten off for murder on smaller ones!


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## ClubMan (16 Apr 2007)

bond-007 said:


> People have gotten off for murder on smaller ones!


When?


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## bond-007 (16 Apr 2007)

I can't quote examples but serious crime cases have been dismissed for minor technicalities. You only have to look at drink driving cases. 

Back on topic. If a clever enough person can expose a defect in the law fair play to them. I once lost a case because someone was smart enough to point out that if a double yellow line is broken at all it invalidates the whole section. Lesson learned and defect was fixed the next week.


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## ClubMan (16 Apr 2007)

bond-007 said:


> I can't quote examples but serious crime cases have been dismissed for minor technicalities. You only have to look at drink driving cases.


But you said that people have gotten away with murder for smaller technicalities than the equivalent of disputing a parking fine penalty on the basis of the shape of the parking token. I guess you just made this up so?


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