# Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my system.



## widebody (5 Dec 2009)

Morning,

If a customer pays you in cash (including VAT) but tells you they don't want their name to appear in your system, is there any way around this? We're in a business where increasingly people are coming to us with cash as payment. We would always put it through the system (no choice in current climate), but a few times I'm being asked to remove the person's name. Nothing (too) underhand, just people who deal only in cash.

I take it I can't create dummy invoices? Thanks for the help.


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## mathepac (5 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing*

You could have an account named for example "Retail Cash Sales" for cash sales, if there is nothing in law that says a customer has to produce ID to buy your product (alcohol, drugs, fire-arms, etc)


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## widebody (5 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing*

Thanks for that mathepac, our business is household goods/interiors which would retail at between 2k to 5k.


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## mcaul (7 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*

isn't there some rule about taking details of people who pay you in cash of 2,000+ or is it just the financial institutions that have to do this?


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## Romulan (7 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*

Back in the day we had the 29999 account.

You get a vat invoice and it goes through the books just SUNDRY SALES on the address.


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## DBRAN (8 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*

Hi

I have come across this before where there was a "sundry sales" account in the debtors ledger for over the counter sales. It is probably the only real solution to the problem.

But such accounts always have a habit of degenerating into a sort of no-go-area when it comes to control. No one bothers to allocate the cash against the sale and reconcile it. It soon becomes a dumping ground for anything strange or unexplainable that arises in the debtors ledger and  therefore an invitation for fraud and theft. Just be careful how you implement it thats all.


Kind Regards

dbran


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## Graham_07 (8 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*



DBRAN said:


> But such accounts always have a habit of degenerating into a sort of no-go-area when it comes to control. No one bothers to allocate the cash against the sale and reconcile it. It soon becomes a dumping ground for anything strange or unexplainable that arises in the debtors ledger and therefore an invitation for fraud and theft.


 
This does happen al lot. Some staff are attracted to the "sundry" account like moths to a flame, if anything comes in that's out of the ordinary, they dump it there hoping never to  be found again.


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## Caveat (8 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*

A bit convoluted, but could you allocate individual cash sales accounts?

Sean= cash sales1, Jimmy = cash sales17 etc?  You could have their details filed if needed.  A bit of work but not much.


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## mathepac (8 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*



DBRAN said:


> ... But such accounts always have a habit of degenerating into a sort of no-go-area when it comes to control. No one bothers to allocate the cash against the sale and reconcile it. It soon becomes a dumping ground for anything strange or unexplainable that arises in the debtors ledger and  therefore an invitation for fraud and theft. Just be careful how you implement it thats all...


What you have high-lighted is a controls issue that has little if anything to do with the existence of a particular debtors ledger account. I've always believed that perception is half the problem with controls,  so something called "Sundry", Miscellaneous", is likely to attract unhealthy attention or haphazard control, so maybe an official title like the "Debtors Ledger Cash Sales Control Account" would be a move in the right direction.


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## Sconhome (8 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*



mathepac said:


> What you have high-lighted is a controls issue that has little if anything to do with the existence of a particular debtors ledger account. I've always believed that perception is half the problem with controls,  so something called "Sundry", Miscellaneous", is likely to attract unhealthy attention or haphazard control, so maybe an official title like the "Debtors Ledger Cash Sales Control Account" would be a move in the right direction.



Especially in this day and age where anything that looks odd could raise eyebrows and cause difficulty. 

Keep your accounts system nice and tidy and set your cash sales up as a customer account in the traditional manner on your system. You could name it "Annie Individual" and assign payments directly against this credit account. Maintaining a clear indication of cash in and where it is being allocated.


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## widebody (11 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*

Thanks very much for the replies. From the above info, the easiest thing seems to be to set up a specific debtors account and to put all cash invoices and payments through it, with a reference to date or something similar.

If we ever did have a revenue audit, could they ask us to provide names linked to the transactions?


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## onq (14 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*



widebody said:


> Thanks very much for the replies. From the above info, the easiest thing seems to be to set up a specific debtors account and to put all cash invoices and payments through it, with a reference to date or something similar.
> 
> If we ever did have a revenue audit, could they ask us to provide names linked to the transactions?



It looks like you could have your hands full there with the revenue "widebody".
Given the large sums of money involved, you're not selling sweets, despite your endearing nic.
The implication being that something isn't quite right when someone routinely deals in untraceable amounts of cash in the €1,000+ range.
There could possibly be a criminal implication for you if you suspected these sums were a means of evading tax or the proceeds of crime, didn't report them and this was found to be true.

Its important to be able to trace sources of income back to source and I would be very wary of facilitating cash laundering by someone who is either:
(i) looking to evade tax illegally on undeclared revenue from his cash-only business - a bar or nite club for example.
(ii) looking to launder cash based illegal income - smuggling drink, drugs, etc.

Looking at all the cars whizzing around these days you'd hardly think that Ireland is in a recession at all.
One comment I overheard suggests there is a massive black merket out there at the moment.
I'd certainly get any large amounts of "cash" sniffed by a police dog these days.

Especially if there are any yacht club connections.
The kind that have "floating assets".
If you know what I mean.

<ducks as hordes of angry commodores of the fleet rise up in denial...>

To sum up, I'd approach the revenue on a no-name basis and ask their advice.
After all, they're the ones who call shots, right?
Talk to them, they don't bite.

After that, its the Special Crimes Unit and the Customs, I'm afraid.



HTH

ONQ.


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## widebody (20 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*



onq said:


> It looks like you could have your hands full there with the revenue "widebody".
> Given the large sums of money involved, you're not selling sweets, despite your endearing nic.
> The implication being that something isn't quite right when someone routinely deals in untraceable amounts of cash in the €1,000+ range.
> There could possibly be a criminal implication for you if you suspected these sums were a means of evading tax or the proceeds of crime, didn't report them and this was found to be true.
> ...


 
Unfortunately the black economy has taken hold and there's no way of avoiding it for small businesses. Ordinary people are aware that if they take money from their accounts and pay in cash, they can save the VAT. Established businesses like ourselves have to compete with one man and his van down the road who only deals in notes. We have leases and loans that have to be paid, the money has to hit the bank. We have the take the notes and the pay the VAT off the + VAT price.

Only because Revenue aren't doing their bloody job. And i'll be damned if you think we're going to police it for them and start turning down offers of cash. We of course have to accept the VAT penalty even though we haven't received it, but the way things are now there's no way around it.


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## number7 (24 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*

Straightforward cash sales account on your till, if you want to go the extra mile ask for the name "Mr. Don Duck" not your issue if they dont provide accurate details.

I can go into any hardware store in the country and spend a couple of grand and not one of them will ask for my name if it has any potential to lose them the sale.


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## MandaC (31 Dec 2009)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*



Graham_07 said:


> This does happen al lot. Some staff are attracted to the "sundry" account like moths to a flame, if anything comes in that's out of the ordinary, they dump it there hoping never to  be found again.



Laughing at the above but that is exactly what I have seen happen.  I once had the pleasure in trying to reconcile one of these for a client.


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## John Conlon (6 Jan 2010)

*Re: Invoicing: Customer pays in cash but does not want his name appearing on my syste*

Do dummy invoices any of this and you go out on a limb. You can issue cash docket sales.

However, if you are dealing in large amounts of cash you could leave yourself open to money laundering issues. it may seem far fetched but is quite prevalent.

Any serious involvement in that and its not funny.
John Conlon


www.conlonosullivan.ie/tax-adviser.php


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