# Open two apartments into one



## Balou (22 Aug 2011)

Hi All,

Is it possible / legal in Ireland to purchase the apartment above you and one it up into another story effectivly creating one apartment out of two?? What problems would you encounter? Obviously management company permission and planning permission would be required. Has this been done before in Ireland?


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## onq (22 Aug 2011)

That sounds like a very interesting project.
You would probably require the following approvals.


 Management Company
 Planning Permission
 Fire Safety Certificate
 Disability Access Certificate.
  There would be services and structural issues to overcome if you wanted to do a lot of opening up works and creating double height spaces etc.
In principle I don't see why it couldn't be done, since as they stand each apartment should be compliant.
It could open up a whole new market in refurbishment and renovation work.

ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon             as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal     action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in             Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the     matters    at      hand.


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## hastalavista (22 Aug 2011)

would be interesting to see how the lawyers would 'extinguish' one apt to stop you being nailed for the second home tax


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## ericsson (22 Aug 2011)

Also I imagine the management company would do all they can to prevent it as they would be losing out on a management fee as supposedly if it was made into one apartment you would only be paying one fee...


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## onq (23 Aug 2011)

None of the statutory approvals - planning, fire cert, DAC - confer a right to carry out works - legal rights have to be negotiated with the management company.

Given the extensive nature of the work and the fact that if the apartment was above ground floor and below penthouse level it could directly affect -- four properties (faces of a rectangle)
- plus another four (corners of a rectangle)
- plus those on two levels (corridors access)
- plus those nearby on the facade (dust and noise)​- I'd say your Health and Safety file could be a big one plus the times of working could be very restricted, especially if there are children adjoining.

Given the potential noise, dust and nuisance to neighbours, you might consider a strategy whereby you pay for holidays for everyone for a long weekend to get the bulk of the heavy work done, the debris carried away, new building materials brought in and first fix (structural, mechanical, electrical) carried out.

It could pay you to price for round-the-clock working in shifts on that weekend to get the bulk of the deliveries, heavy work, dust generation and noise generating work done, then do a clean up.

Apart from minimizing disturbance and hazard, it will generate goodwill at the start of the project.
Without a measure like this, the management company could be unlikely to approve the work.
I wouldn't advise that this is offered initially, but that you come to it via discussion.

You will have to employ professionals before during and after the work to be in a position to give assurances about possible adverse effects on the adjoining properties and the block as a whole.

You would be very well advised to carry out photographic schedules of condition on every property likely to be affected and the block as a whole and your professionals can advise on this.

You may have to enter into a binding legal agreements- not to cause harm and
- to remedy any damage inadvertently caused immediately​with
- all the adjoining propertyholders and occupants (two separate parties) and/or
- the management company, either in its own capacity and/or on behalf of the adjoining propertholders​These agreements may need to be entered into jointly by you and your contractors and you should consider asking your professionals to sign a collateral warranty in relation to this work.

For you part, you should ensure your professionals have fully informed their professional indemnity cover insurers and confirmed they have cover in place.

You should also inquire from specialist insurers whether your contractors should have "Non-Negligence" cover.
This is in case, despite every precaution having been taken and competent work being done, something unfortunate occurs.
You should also take best advice on whether other specialist insurances require to be maintained going forward.

Finally it is likely that the Fire Detection and Alarm system for the apartment block will have to be re-commissioned to ensure that the work - noise, dust vibration and your amendments - did not adversely affect the system and thereby put everyone at risk.

This is off the top of my head this morning while I grab a cuppa in the middle of other work, so its not an exhaustive list, bit it gives you a good starting point for discussing the project with -- the management company
- the local authority
- prospective contractors
- prospective professionals​I would strongly suggest you appoint a separate Health and Safety professional for a project like this because of -- the close working conditions
- the complexity of the working arrangement
- the tight time frame in which most of the work must be carried out.​Take note that your professionals will have to be around that weekend to ensure everything is properly carried out according to the programme sequence, not corners are cut and a photographic record of the work is kept.


ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon              as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal      action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in              Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the      matters    at      hand.


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## markpb (23 Aug 2011)

ericsson said:


> Also I imagine the management company would do all they can to prevent it as they would be losing out on a management fee as supposedly if it was made into one apartment you would only be paying one fee...



The management company would have no problem at all - the OP would have purchased two properties, signed two leases and be liable for two sets of service charges.


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## Balou (25 Aug 2011)

Thanks for all the replies. It really seems like i'd be biting off more than I could chew so that idea may just be shelved.

In terms of adding some information. I have a ground floor own door and the apartment above is own door also. There are no other levels so no corridors etc to be taken into account.

Does anyone know if this has been done in Ireland before? I see it has been done in the US with condos but havent had any examples here.


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## onq (25 Aug 2011)

I don't know of any such instance.

To find precedent, you may have to -

- search each local authorities website
- seach the an Bórd Pleanála website or perhaps 
- ask planning a consultant

You could also look at precedent in planning law in the UK but check the supporting law.

Don't just abandon the concept because of difficulty - it it was easy, everyone would do it. 
It could set a precedent in Irish planning law and practice that might be something to remember. 

 At least talk to the planning officer and see if its possible in principle and you might post any news here.

ONQ.  

[broken link removed]  

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon               as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal       action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the       matters    at      hand.


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## Balou (26 Aug 2011)

Thanks for all you help. If we manage to bring this forward i'll update on how it goes.


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## onq (26 Aug 2011)

That's the spirit - I look forward to reading about your adventure.


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## so-crates (26 Aug 2011)

Please do, I have been having the same musings myself!


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