# Gaming the System



## Purple (20 Feb 2018)

Why is Welfare fraud such a hot topic when there is such a prevalence of fraud and tax evasion across all areas of society?
I bought a phone for my daughter on Sunday and the woman in the shop offered to put her phone on my business account. She was amazed when I said no, that would be fraud/ tax evasion. 
We make bogus insurance claims. I've been offered discounts for cash payments from tradespeople, solicitors, accountants, architects and doctors. That's all tax evasion/fraud.

We have TD's who have been found guilty of tax evasion on a massive scale. We have individuals in banks who engaged in massive and systematic fraud (the Tracker Mortgage scandal) who we all know will never be held personally accountable.
We live in a society where low level corruption, tax evasion and fraud are socially acceptable. Telling an American that you don't pay your taxes is like telling them you are a pedophile. If you are fully tax compliant here you are a fool. 

How do we change that?
Do we want to change it?


----------



## odyssey06 (20 Feb 2018)

If you don't trust your government to spend your money wisely, or think they are wasting it on frivolous things... then you will see it as ok to dodge the tax that they levy.

If you don't see a connection between the tax you contribute, and how it is manifested in your area in schools, hospitals, roads, police, infrastructure projects... then you will see it as acceptable to dodge tax.

Does the American Federal system, where different taxes are levied at different levels, help to form those connections?

If you feel that the tax levied is too high, and over and above what should be necessary, they you will see it as ok to dodge tax. Personally, if the government has to take more than 50% of what you have earned, unless there's a war on, that's immoral, and I see it as perfectly morally acceptable to dodge that.
The Federal system allows you to up and move to a different city, county, state if you don't like the taxes in your current location.
I am sure that if American tax rates rocketed under a socialist President, you would see an increase in evasion.

I guess the difference with welfare fraud v tax evasion is that with welfare fraud it's like shoplifting a CD off the shelf; versus downloading a CD for free online.


----------



## Leo (20 Feb 2018)

A large section of society see evading tax as legitimate and just 'sticking it to the man'. That's OK because they are all 'honest decent' people, all in it together. Someone getting a cash price on a building job is just seen as getting a good deal, not stealing from their neighbours or wider society. After all, it's those super rich who should be paying more anyway. When a bank does something similar, well, that's a different story, because they are seen as those super rich, they're not the self same honest decent people, so different rules apply. 

It reminds me of the story of the Greek downfall, how they all evaded tax on a massive scale, but it was only when they saw some monks do the same they all cried foul. Think I read the story from a link here a number of years ago, still makes interesting reading.


----------



## odyssey06 (20 Feb 2018)

Also in Ireland there seems to be a legacy of tax evasion and general evasion of 'misdemeanour' laws things like planning permission etc... this seems to have started as a general rebellion against British rule and it was never eradicated in Free State times as a 'sticking to the man' (to quote Leo) attitude.


----------



## dub_nerd (20 Feb 2018)

We were seen as an unruly lot even before the era of colonial excesses. Basically, as a nation, we've got a dishonest streak.

Then again, perhaps most countries do. We're certainly not the worst.


----------



## noproblem (20 Feb 2018)

Sweeping statements on supposedly tax evasion in the above comments but, are we talking about tax evasion or tax avoidance? One is legal and one is not and a lot of people don't seem to understand. Yes, we have tax evasion, i'm not disputing that. We also have specific branches of accountancy dealing with people who wish to avoid paying tax above and beyond what's legally expected and whither we like it or not this is above board even if it's frowned on by the moral police. 
Now, the above is just a thought to throw into the mix, it usually gets the snowflakes up and out to flex their little keyboard muscles.


----------



## odyssey06 (20 Feb 2018)

Because of our language and geographic location, we naturally compare ourselves to US, UK etc and our media reports on political goings on in those countries. 

But in our political culture, and I think the welfare \ tax attitude falls into that, we seem to have more in common with historically 'Catholic' countries. Are we any worse or better on these things than say, France?


----------



## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

noproblem said:


> Sweeping statements on supposedly tax evasion in the above comments but, are we talking about tax evasion or tax avoidance? One is legal and one is not and a lot of people don't seem to understand. Yes, we have tax evasion, i'm not disputing that. We also have specific branches of accountancy dealing with people who wish to avoid paying tax above and beyond what's legally expected and whither we like it or not this is above board even if it's frowned on by the moral police.
> Now, the above is just a thought to throw into the mix, it usually gets the snowflakes up and out to flex their little keyboard muscles.


  no problem once people don't mind paying high taxes to fund the above but I think they do have a problem up until now they blamed the wrong people for there high taxes,


----------



## Purple (20 Feb 2018)

odyssey06 said:


> f you don't trust your government to spend your money wisely, or think they are wasting it on frivolous things... then you will see it as ok to dodge the tax that they levy.
> 
> If you don't see a connection between the tax you contribute, and how it is manifested in your area in schools, hospitals, roads, police, infrastructure projects... then you will see it as acceptable to dodge tax.
> 
> Does the American Federal system, where different taxes are levied at different levels, help to form those connections?


Yes, the issue of legitimacy of authority. It applies in households, businesses, sports teams and countries. If you perceive that the State is wasting your money then you resent paying your taxes. If you see welfare fraud you resent that too and so we get to a "sure everyone else is at it, you'd be a fool not to" attitude. 
How do we change that?

In my opinion the media have a case to answer as they present most topics in emotive rather than empirical or factual terms.


----------



## odyssey06 (20 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> Yes, the issue of legitimacy of authority. It applies in households, businesses, sports teams and countries. If you perceive that the State is wasting your money then you resent paying your taxes. If you see welfare fraud you resent that too and so we get to a "sure everyone else is at it, you'd be a fool not to" attitude.
> How do we change that?
> In my opinion the media have a case to answer as they present most topics in emotive rather than empirical or factual terms.



I wouldn't entirely exonerate the political system. 
If the media are reporting frivolous political spending, the bucks stops with the politicians not the media.
I think real local government would help with the legitimacy of authority and the connection people see between tax and their local area. 

I don't think we are too hard on welfare fraud. Maybe we need to be harder on tax and other forms of evasion of laws. The government seems to find it easier to introduce new laws rather than looking at why current ones are actually enforced (e.g. how many motoring offences thrown out for technicalities). That does not generate respect for their authority.


----------



## noproblem (20 Feb 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> no problem once people don't mind paying high taxes to fund the above but I think they do have a problem up until now they blamed the wrong people for there high taxes,



I've genuinely no idea what you're trying to say.


----------



## Purple (20 Feb 2018)

I agree odyssey06 but it is very common to see so-called journalists write articles in which they conflate issues and mislead the reader about cause and effect.


----------



## odyssey06 (20 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> I agree odyssey06 but it is very common to see so-called journalists write articles in which they conflate issues and mislead the reader about cause and effect.



True, but you could say that in any discussion thread on any political subject 
I don't know if it is a specific factor here.
Far too many journalists need to be sent on a course on how to properly assess a statistical claim... how to ask the questions that the study\report etc hasn't even tried to answer. 
I exonerate the FactCheck person at The Journal from that list!


----------



## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

noproblem said:


> I've genuinely no idea what you're trying to say.


People who defend loopholes are the same people whinging about the amount of tax they pay if you look back on this site , We will still be paying for lots of the loopholes they are defending in thirty years time,


----------



## Leo (20 Feb 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> People who defend loopholes are the same people whinging about the amount of tax they pay if you look back on this site , We will still be paying for lots of the loopholes they are defending in thirty years time,



Can you clarify the relevant loopholes and who is defending them?


----------



## Jim2007 (20 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> Telling an American that you don't pay your taxes is like telling them you are a pedophile. If you are fully tax compliant here you are a fool.



Well given that between 45% and 53% of American households to not pay income taxes, there is every chance you will be telling to someone who does not pay income taxes either!



Purple said:


> How do we change that?



Stop crusading and start reporting, off you go!


----------



## Gordon Gekko (20 Feb 2018)

High earners are entitled to feel peeved when their taxes are squandered in the manner that they currently are.


----------



## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

Gordon Gekko said:


> High earners are entitled to feel peeved when their taxes are squandered in the manner that they currently are.


Currently what an understatement lots of the commitments and squandering if the were to stop tomorrow it will take forty years for the squandering to work its way out of the system the biggest cheerleaders for no change are High earners the think FF/FG are looking out for them there are in for a shock .They have done more long term damage to high wage earners than any left wing government could ever imagine getting away with, The Trioka are badly missed by high earners,

The first that needs to happen is we need to get rid of FF or FG we only need one of them replacing a FG  Government by FF will not work one or the other needs to be got rid off seeing they will not share power and give us what we voted for,

We need to use our vote to merge fg and ff into the same party we need an open  a debate on which should go ,


----------



## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

Gordon Gekko said:


> High earners are entitled to feel peeved when their taxes are squandered in the manner that they currently are.



What about low and middle income earners? Or is it just a privilege for high-earners?
The irony is, the laws, decisions, rules, are by and large drawn up and set by high-earners. Isnt that why they are paid a pretty penny? To take the 'hard' decisions?


----------



## RETIRED2017 (20 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> What about low and middle income earners? Or is it just a privilege for high-earners?
> The irony is, the laws, decisions, rules, are by and large drawn up and set by high-earners. Isnt that why they paid a pretty penny? To take the 'hard' decisions?


Lots of high earners  think like you  they are in for a shock they are already starting to pick up the tab .They are not looking closely at where the tax is being spent ,


----------



## gnf_ireland (20 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> I've been offered discounts for cash payments from tradespeople, solicitors, accountants, architects and doctors. That's all tax evasion/fraud.


To be honest I have had the opposite problem, especially with tradespeople. I have found it impossible to get people to do work as I refuse to pay cash to people. The amount of times I needed someone to do a small job and I mention payment by bank transfer, they are all too busy. And don't get me started on the HRI scheme - failed miserably to get people to do 1-2k jobs within this scheme.

Never had the solicitor, accountant, architect or doctor experience, but I am not saying it does not happen.

I have had a number of taxi drivers refuse to give me receipts for trips, to the point where I have asked to be driven to the local garda station before a till receipt magically appears from no where.

And my favourite one - paying cash for childcare, despite the fact most would not be paying much tax anyway and the only save the 8.6% employer PRSI. Its either because people are too lazy, the person is illegal or drawing social welfare at the same time.




odyssey06 said:


> If you don't see a connection between the tax you contribute, and how it is manifested in your area in schools, hospitals, roads, police, infrastructure projects... then you will see it as acceptable to dodge tax.


This is exactly the issue. People need to feel the money is being used correctly and not wasted and this lack of trust is simply not there with the irish public



Purple said:


> Telling an American that you don't pay your taxes is like telling them you are a pedophile. If you are fully tax compliant here you are a fool.


In the Nordics, tax evasion is the only crime where there is no 'excuse for'. Murder can be justified to a point; tax evasion not


I am not sure if anyone has ever been to Chile, but it is the consumers responsibility to ensure they have a receipt for the goods they purchase before the leave the story, or for any services they buy. If they cannot provide a receipt on inspection, they are liable to a large fine - without exception. In my month in Chile (~2003/04) I was stopped and inspected around 20 times - always had my receipts as I was warned about this.

Maybe we have to reverse the mindset on this and in the event someone is caught paying cash without a proper receipt, the payer is liable for a large fine.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (20 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> What about low and middle income earners? Or is it just a privilege for high-earners?
> The irony is, the laws, decisions, rules, are by and large drawn up and set by high-earners. Isnt that why they are paid a pretty penny? To take the 'hard' decisions?



Low and middle earners contribute very little to the system so have less right to interrogate it.

High earners pay an insane proportion of the tax in this country.


----------



## elacsaplau (20 Feb 2018)

Gordon Gekko said:


> High earners pay an insane proportion of the tax in this country.



So the haves should have more and the have-nots less?


----------



## TheBigShort (20 Feb 2018)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Low and middle earners contribute very little to the system so have less right to interrogate it.
> 
> High earners pay an insane proportion of the tax in this country.



Its the tax system. We ALL have a stake in the society that we live in. Which is generally shaped and influenced by decisions made at leadership levels in politics, civil service, health, education, industry and commerce, IT etc.
Those in leadership roles tend more often than not to be high earners.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (20 Feb 2018)

What exactly is your point Big Short?

That high earners shouldn’t feel more annoyed when they see their greater contribution squandered?


----------



## joe sod (20 Feb 2018)

gnf_ireland said:


> In the Nordics, tax evasion is the only crime where there is no 'excuse for'. Murder can be justified to a point; tax evasion not



I think the nordic model is under extreme strain now due to the migration issue. The only way it can survive is with australian and canadian style border controls.


----------



## dub_nerd (21 Feb 2018)

Jim2007 said:


> Stop crusading and start reporting, off you go!



Nailed it, Jim2007. Have seen several examples on these very pages of people complaining about a tax cheat and then slinking off when it is suggested they should be reported. If you are too squeamish to do the right thing, too scared of being a "rat", then don't be surprised when your complaints are ineffectual.


----------



## gnf_ireland (21 Feb 2018)

joe sod said:


> I think the nordic model is under extreme strain now due to the migration issue. The only way it can survive is with australian and canadian style border controls.


Absolutely - it was under massive pressure when I lived there a decade ago, and was projected to get a lot worse
Cradle to Grave social support only works for people born into the system, and where the numbers requiring welfare are controlled.


----------



## odyssey06 (21 Feb 2018)

joe sod said:


> I think the nordic model is under extreme strain now due to the migration issue. The only way it can survive is with australian and canadian style border controls.



Then the Nordic model is incompatible with EU membership...


----------



## Purple (21 Feb 2018)

Jim2007 said:


> Well given that between 45% and 53% of American households to not pay income taxes, there is every chance you will be telling to someone who does not pay income taxes either!


 Are they still tax compliant?



Jim2007 said:


> Stop crusading and start reporting, off you go!


How do you know what I do?
I have reported people for tax evasion. I've also reported them for insurance fraud.




Gordon Gekko said:


> High earners are entitled to feel peeved when their taxes are squandered in the manner that they currently are.


We live in a republic where your democratic rights are not determined by your income. They used to have that in Northern Ireland and some of the Southern States of the USA. I'm not a fan of the idea.


----------



## Purple (21 Feb 2018)

gnf_ireland said:


> To be honest I have had the opposite problem, especially with tradespeople. I have found it impossible to get people to do work as I refuse to pay cash to people. The amount of times I needed someone to do a small job and I mention payment by bank transfer, they are all too busy. And don't get me started on the HRI scheme - failed miserably to get people to do 1-2k jobs within this scheme.


That's the same problem.


----------



## DeclanDublin (21 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> Why is Welfare fraud such a hot topic when there is such a prevalence of fraud and tax evasion across all areas of society?
> I bought a phone for my daughter on Sunday and the woman in the shop offered to put her phone on my business account. She was amazed when I said no, that would be fraud/ tax evasion.
> We make bogus insurance claims. I've been offered discounts for cash payments from tradespeople, solicitors, accountants, architects and doctors. That's all tax evasion/fraud.
> 
> ...





Gordon Gekko said:


> What exactly is your point Big Short?
> 
> That high earners shouldn’t feel more annoyed when they see their greater contribution squandered?



This sound remarkably like a justification for an aristocracy. More wealth = more clout or more entitlement to clout.


----------



## Purple (21 Feb 2018)

gnf_ireland said:


> Never had the solicitor, accountant, architect or doctor experience, but I am not saying it does not happen.


I've been told my a consultant's secretary that he only takes cash. There is only one reason why someone only takes cash. I received a hand written receipt with no serial number.


----------



## TheBigShort (21 Feb 2018)

Gordon Gekko said:


> What exactly is your point Big Short?
> 
> That high earners shouldn’t feel more annoyed when they see their greater contribution squandered?




Thats exactly the point. Its a fallacious viewpoint to hold. 'Squandered' is subjective. There is no unison collective voice of 'high' earners bemoaning the squandering of their taxes.
How taxes are spent in this country is ultimately the decision of government ministers. They generally tend to be intelligent and educated people who are high-earners themselves, or at least capable of attaining higher earning positions in the private sector. They take advice from high earning civil servants and they listen to the views of lobby groups, who more often than not, pay high wages to a person they believe is best placed to represent their views.

In the end decisions are made, some people disagree with the decisions and some others agree.
But where there is disagreement and a belief that taxes are being squandered, high earners rarely, if ever, hold a monopoly on that belief.
A €5 increase JSA is as likely to annoy somehow on low-middle income who thinks bus fares and VAT are too high, as it is someone earning €150,000 a year. And they are as equally entitled to feel that is squandering taxes, if they are inclined to think that way in the first instance.


----------



## Purple (21 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Thats exactly the point. Its a fallacious viewpoint to hold. 'Squandered' is subjective. There is no unison collective voice of 'high' earners bemoaning the squandering of their taxes.
> How taxes are spent in this country is ultimately the decision of government ministers. They generally tend to be intelligent and educated people who are high-earners themselves, or at least capable of attaining higher earning positions in the private sector. They take advice from high earning civil servants and they listen to the views of lobby groups, who more often than not, pay high wages to a person they believe is best placed to represent their views.
> 
> In the end decisions are made, some people disagree with the decisions and some others agree.
> ...


I think it's fair to say that it is very frustrating for someone seeing over half their marginal earning being taken in taxes looking at (for example) waiting lists and chaos in a health service which is one of the best funded in the world. That frustration is exacerbated when those running and working in that health system just keep asking for more and more money without any discernible improvement in services.
Someone who is a net recipient of income from the State (most people) might feel less aggrieved since it's not their money that is being wasted as they don't actually contribute any net taxes.


----------



## Gordon Gekko (21 Feb 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> ...government ministers. They generally tend to be intelligent and educated people who are high-earners themselves, or at least capable of attaining higher earning positions in the private sector. They take advice from high earning civil servants



Firstly, they are not high-earners. Secondly, they tend to be school teachers and the like on long-term secondments and full of glee at earning €100,000 a year. As for the civil servants, with some exceptions, they tend to be utter dross who wouldn’t last 10 minutes in the private sector. Many of this country’s financial woes would be solved by sending half of its public servants to the firing squad.


----------



## RETIRED2017 (21 Feb 2018)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Firstly, they are not high-earners. Secondly, they tend to be school teachers and the like on long-term secondments and full of glee at earning €100,000 a year. As for the civil servants, with some exceptions, they tend to be utter dross who wouldn’t last 10 minutes in the private sector. Many of this country’s financial woes would be solved by sending half of its public servants to the firing squad.


I  have met lots and lots of very good public servants if fact i met more in the private doing a very poor job and getting well paid for it, for the record both my wife and myself worked in the private sector all of out life I don't think it is fair to pick out people because of where they work full stop,

We had a good few Private sector ministers who were very poor at there job,


----------



## mccoypat94 (21 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> I've been told my a consultant's secretary that he only takes cash. There is only one reason why someone only takes cash. I received a hand written receipt with no serial number.



Absolutley. Ive had that experience with the medical profession also.

What galls me is when tradesmen just expect its a cash payment, and if you ask for a reciept or dont pay cash they say, ah well we'll have to charge the vat so!
I run a small retail shop, every price tag includes vat!!!!


----------



## RETIRED2017 (21 Feb 2018)

mccoypat94 said:


> Absolutley. Ive had that experience with the medical profession also.
> 
> What galls me is when tradesmen just expect its a cash payment, and if you ask for a reciept or dont pay cash they say, ah well we'll have to charge the vat so!
> I run a small retail shop, every price tag includes vat!!!!


Gaming the system is the main reason why we pay pay high taxes in this Country ,


----------



## odyssey06 (21 Feb 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Gaming the system is the main reason why we pay pay high taxes in this Country ,



Is it? I'm not sure if it's the main reason... if we have a health sector that needs twice as much money to deliver the same (or worse) service as other EU countries (or worse)... or does that count as gaming the system too \ feather bedding?

According to the Examinder, the size of Ireland's Black market in 2013 was €1.2 billion:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/sex-and-drugs-help-add-euro12bn-to-gdp-274271.html

According to this: _"Black market trading is estimated to have cost the economy close to €2.5bn last year. Almost €800m of that is a direct loss to the Exchequer, according to a report by consultants Grant Thornton."_
https://www.independent.ie/business...ing-cost-economy-25bn-last-year-34703091.html

But I wonder if those figures include tax evasion \ welfare fraud? And that's a pretty big discrepancy between a "size" of €1.2 billion and a "cost" of €2.5 billion.

This is list of selected countries by Shadow economy:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallm...-firmly-established-infographic/#e37b70c742cc

In January 2015, Ireland's shadow economy was 11% of GDP, versus an EU average of 18% - the shadow economy also includes activities such as illegal gambling, drugs, prostitution etc as well as nixers.
[broken link removed]

Even if we increase the percentage to account for Ireland's abnornal GDP v GNP ratio, €255m versus €200m in 2015 ... we would still be average or just below at 14%.
Or maybe, our figures are just bogus and we are missing out on some leprechauns somewhere with their stashed pots of gold :0


----------



## TheBigShort (21 Feb 2018)

Gordon Gekko said:


> Firstly, they are not high-earners. Secondly, they tend to be school teachers and the like on long-term secondments and full of glee at earning €100,000 a year. As for the civil servants, with some exceptions, they tend to be utter dross who wouldn’t last 10 minutes in the private sector. Many of this country’s financial woes would be solved by sending half of its public servants to the firing squad.



It doesnt really matter what you think of anyone, anymore than what they think of you. My point is, _everyone _can feel aggrieved if they want to. Simply having contributed more money in taxes doesnt give any additional entitlement over anyone else.

You may feel they should have that additional entitlement, I feel they dont have that additional entitlement and there is nothing that actually gives them that additional entitlement.


----------



## gnf_ireland (21 Feb 2018)

Purple said:


> I've been told my a consultant's secretary that he only takes cash. There is only one reason why someone only takes cash. I received a hand written receipt with no serial number.



Now that you mention it, I had a similar issue with a consultant by daughter went to in that they only accepted cash or cheque and not card payments. They did not have a card machine, which I find strange given you can effectively run one over your phone at the moment. I did get a proper receipt generated from a computer system with invoice number etc listed. I submitted it for health insurance return without an issue.

Surely after the national contractor project, hospital consultants would be slow to engage in such blatant 'questionable' activities as non-serialised handwritten receipts?

I am aware of other countries which have legal requirements on all companies and sole traders to provide explanations around gaps in invoice numbers. Its a proper pain for IT system development I can assure you


----------



## TheBigShort (21 Jun 2018)

Just to take at the concept of 'Gaming the System' from a different perspective.

In the week that we saw justice being served for the biggest financial fraud in this country, it struck me that it was preceded by the tax settlement of some €18m by one of worlds iconic sports stars.
It wasn't that long ago that his fellow professional, Messi, was found guilty of €4.5m fraud.
Other footballers such as Alexis Sanchez, Ramadal Falcao and Luka Modric have also ended up with substantial fines/settlements in the €millions for tax evasion.
And while it may be a culture amongst some professional footballers, it is somewhat irksome to know as they continue to perform on the big stage of the World Cup, that the tournament organisers FIFA are under investigation for all sorts of financial irregularities too.

To top it off, the tournament is being hosted by a country that some would say, is synonymous with financial and political corruption.

Over the last decade or two we have had the Apple Tax judgement, Goldman Sachs and Greek Euro entry debacle, Panama Papers, Lehman collapse and literally dozens of global financial institutions involved in bare-faced criminality involving €bns.

In the meantime, im dug into the trenches in another topic to do with the housing crisis trying to point out that the poorest in our society are not all gaming the system. Of those that are, it pales into _near absolute insignificance_ to white collar financial and tax fraud that is occurring globally.
I note that when I commented on the housing crisis highlighting that it is a problem occuring across Western societies, the focus was immediately deflected back onto social and local authority tenants of this country!

So when it comes to 'gaming the system' why is so much more attention and energy focused on those who actually game the system least, and relatively little attention in comparison, is focused on those who game the system most?

Im minded of a line from the movie of my username when Wall St was plummeted in 2008

- " I _have a feeling in a few years people are going to be doing what they always do when the economy tanks. They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."
_
Since then;

Brexit (immigration) , Trump (immigration), European refugee crisis, unemployed, social and local authority tenants, low-income earners (they dont pay their fair share of tax! ) etc are all disproportionately on the receiving end of invective exaggerations of the problems they cause to our societies and economies.

All the while the Anglo chiefs, Sepp Blatters, Sam Alderdyces, Ronaldos etc are caught and held out for a finger pointing and shaming to various degrees.
But no-one it appears to me, stops to challenge the collective system that allows white collar crime prevail, as it does, at such gargantuan levels.


----------



## RETIRED2017 (22 Jun 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> Just to take at the concept of 'Gaming the System' from a different perspective.
> 
> In the week that we saw justice being served for the biggest financial fraud in this country, it struck me that it was preceded by the tax settlement of some €18m by one of worlds iconic sports stars.
> It wasn't that long ago that his fellow professional, Messi, was found guilty of €4.5m fraud.
> ...



the fear they  gravy train will come off the rails,Others fear there will be no more crums falling off the table,
Most fear they will have to pay there fair share and a few others smart but not  smart enough to notice the people close to them who do not pay there fair share meaning there will be nothing left for them when there time comes who follow the people who are doing everything the possibly can not to pay there fair share

 So the smart  but not so smart d'ont notice why they will have to pay more because of the special treatment given to vested and well connected lobby groups before the chickens started to  come home to roost,


----------



## cremeegg (22 Jun 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> the big stage of the World Cup, that the tournament organisers FIFA are under investigation for all sorts of financial irregularities too.



Without FIFA there would be no world cup. While that wouldn't bother me much, you seem to be enjoying it. What would we loose if Joe Bloggs stopped fraudulently claiming the dole.

Without Anglo my house and approximately 15% of all the houses in the country would never have been built.



TheBigShort said:


> Over the last decade or two we have had the Apple Tax judgement, Goldman Sachs and Greek Euro entry debacle, Panama Papers, Lehman collapse and literally dozens of global financial institutions involved in bare-faced criminality involving €bns.



Equating the Apple tax issue with the Panama Papers issue suggests that you understand neither.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Jun 2018)

cremeegg said:


> Without FIFA there would be no world cup. While that wouldn't bother me much, you seem to be enjoying it.



Ok, so before I get accused of diversion and deflection, or 'rabbit holes' 
Here is my definition of 'gaming the system'

"Fixing, setting or using the rules and procedures to manipulate or extract an unfair, undue or unintended outcome or reward in favour of one or more parties over others".
- im sure this can be amended, adjusted etc and that others have different definitions, but I would consider that they wouldn't be a million miles from the above? 

So in the context of 'gaming the system', it is clear to me that the Panama Papers revealed some apparent systems of tax evasion for certain parties (typically very rich parties) that would not, in the ordinary course of affairs be available to most other parties (typically, not rich parties).

Apple Tax - the EU Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13bn to Apple.

I think both affairs would plausibly fall under the definition above of 'Gaming the System' , notwithstanding of course the Irish governments on-going appeal against that decision.

I am of course open to discuss any apparent flaw in what I have posted.


----------



## cremeegg (22 Jun 2018)

Apple makes its money by selling shiny technology to the public. It is not involved in selling drugs, or people trafficking or any such activity. I am not sure the same can be said for the clients of Mossack Fonseca.

_Offshore companies are legal, said Panamanian lawyer and former controller of the republic Alvin Weeden; illegality arises when they are used for money laundering, arms smuggling, terrorism, or tax evasion._

Apple conducted it tax affairs with the full knowledge of the tax authorities in Spain, Ireland and the US. I am not sure the same can be said for the clients of Mossack Fonseca.

To equate the two seems unreasonable to me.


----------



## TheBigShort (22 Jun 2018)

cremeegg said:


> To equate the two seems unreasonable to me



Absolutely, in terms of their respective activities to game the system, they are worlds apart. 
And just to be clear, my previous comment is not about the World Cup and whether I enjoy it or not, its not about Irish housing stock, Apple iphones  and iPads, nor is it about drug-dealing, human trafficking etc

The point being made is that at all walks of life, from those on welfare benefits, working with cash, those auditing, accounting, policing, administrating, policy making etc etc, there are elements of people within all systems who will try to manipulate or extract unfair advantage or reward, by way of using or fixing the system to suit their own ends. 

To me, (and this is just opinion) there is a tendency for society, law makers, commentators to focus disproportionately on those who are extracting least advantage from the respective systems that they are gaming , over those who are extracting the most advantage from their respective systems.


----------



## Purple (25 Jun 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> The point being made is that at all walks of life, from those on welfare benefits, working with cash, those auditing, accounting, policing, administrating, policy making etc etc, there are elements of people within all systems who will try to manipulate or extract unfair advantage or reward, by way of using or fixing the system to suit their own ends.


 True. It is all wrong and shopuld all be challenged. I think you'll find I have been critical of all vested interest groups and have previously made the same general points you make above. 


TheBigShort said:


> To me, (and this is just opinion) there is a tendency for society, law makers, commentators to focus disproportionately on those who are extracting least advantage from the respective systems that they are gaming , over those who are extracting the most advantage from their respective systems.


 You have to ask yourself what "most Advantage" means. Someone working in the black economy who is paying no income tax and getting dole is evading 100% of their tax liability and stealing. A Medical Consultant who demands cash only is paying lots of tax but evading lots more. A billionaire who funnels their income through an offshore business in a fraudulent manner is evading lots of tax but paying lots more. It's the same crime but some have a greater opportunity to "sin". I wouldn't be trying to devise a scale of moral fecklessness just because some people are better at being corrupt than others. 

As for FIFA... they are a disgrace.


----------



## Purple (25 Jun 2018)

RETIRED2017 said:


> Gaming the system is the main reason why we pay pay high taxes in this Country ,


I disagree with that. Waste, a very narrow tax base and unrealistic expectations of what the State can and should do is, in my opinion, the main reason a small cohort of people pay high taxes.
We hire Public Servants as administrators, and they are good at that, and then we promote them to be managers without training them properly or ensuring their have the correct attributes to be managers. And then we are surprised that those massive organisations are badly structured and badly organised.


----------



## TheBigShort (25 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> True. It is all wrong and shopuld all be challenged. I think you'll find I have been critical of all vested interest groups and have previously made the same general points you make above



Without wanting to diverge from the point, as long as what dealings a vested interest group has with government is above-board and transparent, then there shouldn't be an issue. 
The issue I think with Apple and Ireland is that the rules and procedures were found by the EU Commission to be used in a manner that gave undue favour to Apple ie all was not above aboard and transparent (notwithstanding the government position denying any favourable treatment).



Purple said:


> You have to ask yourself what "most Advantage" means



I would suggest most advantage could be measured in monetary terms. 
To my understanding, a lot more resources are input into welfare and tax fraud by ordinary working people and business operators, than there is into international corporate and banking practices. 
It took the EU to expose the Apple Tax. It took nine years to for the Drumm/Anglo case to conclude. The Panama off-shore accounts date back to the 1970's.
And since the crash in 2008 there is a litany of global financial scandals exposed involving amounts that dwarf amounts detected in the ordinary course of affairs.
I suppose what im getting at is, more resources at international level to combat what to me is widespread tax evasion and false accounting amounting to overall sums of €bn's and tens of €bns.


----------



## TheBigShort (26 Jun 2018)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...laundering-shock-denmark-wants-bigger-eu-role

This is kind of what I have in mind.

I do reckon that if a greater focus and impetus is placed on the type and scale of fraud that occurs in the banking industry then governments would stand to reap substantial windfalls through taxes owed. 
Alot of social ills plus national debts could be significantly addressed.


----------



## Purple (26 Jun 2018)

TheBigShort said:


> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...laundering-shock-denmark-wants-bigger-eu-role
> 
> This is kind of what I have in mind.
> 
> ...


I agree completely BS but it's not an either/or situation. There's no reason not to tackle all forms of fraud and criminality.


----------



## TheBigShort (26 Jun 2018)

Purple said:


> I agree completely BS but it's not an either/or situation. There's no reason not to tackle all forms of fraud and criminality.



Absolutely. I do however think that whatever resources are available to tackle financial crime that they are overly weighted towards catching the little guy relative to the resources used to tackling major financial fraud. 
Albeit that is just my impression, I did note that the lead Detective in the Drumm case has called for more resources to tackle white collar crime. One of the reasons the investigation took so long was because the Gardai had to establish first that a crime had taken place. In effect, there was no crime scene, presumably because the actual paper trail is all legal and above board.


----------

