# The forgotten Irish -- should we make them a priority



## mercman (1 Oct 2009)

To those who saw The forgotten Irish on TV3 tonight, it should have been a real wake up call. In the main most of these old Irish call for is to be buried in Ireland. There has been a campaign for years to the Government to provide for these men to afford their final trip home. What you saw on the box tonight was luxury to what it really is. I have done the stint of helping in and around London and believe me it is so so pitiful.

I say that these men who worked drank and sent money home, deserve to be placed on top of the list of worthwhile charities and to be allowed every Irish man's finbal wishes -- to be buried at home.


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## Lex Foutish (1 Oct 2009)

I think they're going to explore the issue further on Tonight With Vincent Browne, at 11:05 tonight.


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## Pique318 (1 Oct 2009)

Think I saw this before (or something like it). Is this the show about the elderly Irish men & women who emigrated to England and worked to support their parents/siblings back home in the 50s-80s and then fell onto hard times due to alcoholism etc. ?

I did feel bad for them as they(and others who hadn't fallen by the wayside) had made a major contribution to those who they had left behind.

I think that considering the pitiful amount of money it would cost to repatriate them (or their remains) would be money well spent.


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## mercman (1 Oct 2009)

Pique318 said:


> I think that considering the pitiful amount of money it would cost to repatriate them (or their remains) would be money well spent.



Exactly. I have been campaigning for this for years. But and with every respect there are those who feel we are better serving charities that have no connection, affiliation or relationship with this country.


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## Pique318 (1 Oct 2009)

True, like half a million to Sumatra for, what exactly, the massive Irish community there ?

Charity does begin at home (or at least those who still would call Ireland their 'home'), IMO.


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## mercman (1 Oct 2009)

Well if I could persuade the Mods to have this thread come under NEW POSTS, we might get a proper campaign going.  And shame to those who dismiss this.


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## z107 (1 Oct 2009)

> I say that these men who worked drank and sent money home, deserve to be placed on top of the list of worthwhile charities and to be allowed every Irish man's finbal wishes -- to be buried at home.



"Are you going across to Ireland? Will you take me in your car?"
Do these people really want to come back to Ireland? Few, who had the choice, actually did. Even in the boom/bubble years.


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## mercman (1 Oct 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Few, who had the choice, actually did. Even in the boom/bubble years.



That is pure crap at its best. The one thing the old Irish in London, where I have met, spoken and visited them, is to be buried in Ireland. There was no boom/bubble for these people - existence was/is difficult enough. But the Minister for Rural & Community Affairs has another view.


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## Rois (1 Oct 2009)

mercman said:


> Well if I could persuade the Mods to have this thread come under NEW POSTS, we might get a proper campaign going. And shame to those who dismiss this.


 
+1

I didn't see the programme tonight, but lived in London for 15 years and knew many of the emigrants from 50's & 60's.  The hardship and racial discrimination they suffered was unimaginable in today's world.  

Many changed their accents and names in an attempt to blend in with the english. But a very large percentage of the people I met have serious problems with alcoholism, broken marriages, gambling etc.  

On speaking to them however, they all long to be back in Ireland or at least to be buried here.  They have never lost their culture/roots despite the hardship many of them suffered at the hands of the religious orders here also.

Gotta stop here or I'll get more penalty points from mods.


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## Staples (2 Oct 2009)

This subject was a particular interest of the former Mayo TD, Dr Jerry Cowley.

As far as I can remember, he set up a retirement community in Mayo specifically for Irish emmigrants that allowed them to return home to comfort and with dignity.

I think efforts like these should be extended and supported whereever possible.


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## Protocol (2 Oct 2009)

These people would like to be buried in Ireland?

Ring the Co. Co., book a plot, same as me or you.


600 euro in Galway city, for example.

[broken link removed]

Feel free, let them work away and book the burial spots.


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## mercman (2 Oct 2009)

Staples said:


> This subject was a particular interest of the former Mayo TD, Dr Jerry Cowley.



Staples, thanks for that info. I will follow that up. Is it any wonder An Bord Snip is trying to close up O'Cuivs show ??


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## mercman (2 Oct 2009)

Protocol said:


> Ring the Co. Co., book a plot, same as me or you.



So you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth. Fair play to you. So they had to go away in many cases. Sent the money home to help rear the family. You obviously don't remenber or never heard what rural Ireland was like in the 60s,70s and 80s


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## Rois (2 Oct 2009)

Protocol said:


> These people would like to be buried in Ireland?
> 
> Ring the Co. Co., book a plot, same as me or you.
> 
> ...


 
Many of them will already have family buriel plots in their homeplace (my uncle was buried in his parents plot). 

Secondly, many of them are desitute and can't afford to start buying plots - they are living in homeless hostels or sleeping rough on the streets in london - just take a walk under Waterloo Bridge and see for yourself.


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## z107 (2 Oct 2009)

> I didn't see the programme tonight, but lived in London for 15 years and knew many of the emigrants from 50's & 60's. The hardship and racial discrimination they suffered was unimaginable in today's world.
> 
> Many changed their accents and names in an attempt to blend in with the english. But a very large percentage of the people I met have serious problems with alcoholism, broken marriages, gambling etc.
> 
> On speaking to them however, they all long to be back in Ireland or at least to be buried here. They have never lost their culture/roots despite the hardship many of them suffered at the hands of the religious orders here also.


That's the dream alright, it's in all the songs. The reality is different though.
I feel sorry for alcoholics etc, but it wasn't London that made them that way. England enabled them to buy the drink. They knew what side their bread was buttered when they moved to England, and stayed there. Plenty more of them made a great success of their lives because England gave them far more opportunities than they could ever get in Ireland. 

You speak to the unfortunate ones, and what do you expect to hear? They _say_ they'd like to be back. What else do they have to lay the blame on? Did that documentary interview the rich ones?

I know this from direct experience.


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## mercman (2 Oct 2009)

Most of the rich ones don't want to come back or even be interviewed. Nothing here for them apart from a load of Upstarts. When and if you had of endured the hardship that some of these blokes went through you might have a different view. Like having the stuffing kicked out of you weekly by the Mets only because you were Irish. Or trying to show your face after a bomb and you're irish etc.etc.


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## Protocol (2 Oct 2009)

mercman said:


> So you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth.
> 
> *No.*
> 
> You obviously don't remenber or never heard what rural Ireland was like in the 0s,70s and 80s


 
*I know well that the during the 50s there was very high emigration out of Irl. Indeed, up to 500,000 people left, causing the pop to fall to an all-time low in 1961 of 2.8m. Very high emigration (has any other country ever experienced such high rates??)*

During the 60s, emigration slowed, until it turned into immigration in the early 70s.

*But, as you say, emigration returned during 1980-1990, as the 80s were as bleak as the 50s. Plus the associated brain drain. *


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## Protocol (2 Oct 2009)

They key question is:

Are we as taxpayers responsible for other Irish people not being responsible enough to prepare for their own deaths?

Are you as a taxpayer prepared to pay more tax to pay the funeral and burial costs for Irish emigrants?

Plenty of my family emigrated, but they covered their own funeral costs.


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## Rois (2 Oct 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> That's the dream alright, it's in all the songs. The reality is different though.
> I feel sorry for alcoholics etc, but it wasn't London that made them that way. England enabled them to buy the drink. They knew what side their bread was buttered when they moved to England, and stayed there. Plenty more of them made a great success of their lives because England gave them far more opportunities than they could ever get in Ireland.
> 
> You speak to the unfortunate ones, and what do you expect to hear? They _say_ they'd like to be back. What else do they have to lay the blame on? Did that documentary interview the rich ones?
> ...


 
They all left either in search of work or to escape the penal abuse they suffered here in the likes of industrial schools/magdalen launderies.  Many girls left because they were un-married and pregnant and would have been outcasts here. 

The men used to queue up every morning in places in kilburn/cricklewood waiting for someone to come along and offer them a job even just for that day.  

Many of the women had illegal abortions and died as a result or were left with permanent damage. All studies on alcoholism, promiscuity, gambling etc show a very high correlation with childhood sexual abuse.  In many cases drinking was the main form of socialisation for them in UK, apart from the fact that it might numb the pain of what they had suffered in Ireland - and I do know what I'm talking about here. 

And yes of course there are the success stories, but that's not what this discussion is about.


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## MOB (2 Oct 2009)

Oh gosh Protocol, that is a little bit too black and white for my liking.  Perhaps the key questions are:

1.  Are charitable donations something the Government should be making with our tax revenue?

2. If the answer is 'yes' or ' maybe', is the repatriation of down-on-their-luck Irish people a worthy object of charity.

I think I am in the yes camp on this one.  Just about, mind you.


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## mercman (2 Oct 2009)

Protocol said:


> Are we as taxpayers responsible for other Irish people not being responsible enough to prepare for their own deaths?
> 
> Are you as a taxpayer prepared to pay more tax to pay the funeral and burial costs for Irish emigrants?



So why do we feel responsible for other nationalities and not our own. There was a thread on AAM a number of months concerning the €900 million handed over to overseas charities.

As a Taxpayer I have no problem with helping the emigrant Irish. I have paid for the dead Irish to come home when I lived in the UK and have done in the recent past to bring them home. 

As soon as people realise that respect has to be given to the dead and stop living in denial and cloud cookoo land. A small bit of genuine charity never hurt anybody and yes, it does give one a feeling of contentment.


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## Pique318 (2 Oct 2009)

Protocol said:


> *I know well that the during the 50s there was very high emigration out of Irl. Indeed, up to 500,000 people left, causing the pop to fall to an all-time low in 1961 of 2.8m. Very high emigration (has any other country ever experienced such high rates??)*
> 
> During the 60s, emigration slowed, until it turned into immigration in the early 70s.
> 
> *But, as you say, emigration returned during 1980-1990, as the 80s were as bleak as the 50s. Plus the associated brain drain. *



Oh well done. Did Google answer that for you ? 



Protocol said:


> Are you as a taxpayer prepared to pay more tax to pay the funeral and burial costs for Irish emigrants?


I'm prepared for my tax to pay for their costs over that of flying bogus 'asylum seekers' 5000 miles to Africa somewhere, that's for sure. 
One contributed to keeping Ireland ticking over and eventually finding it's feet, the other is a parasite trying to take advantage of our benefits.


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## Mpsox (2 Oct 2009)

Protocol said:


> They key question is:
> 
> Are we as taxpayers responsible for other Irish people not being responsible enough to prepare for their own deaths?
> 
> ...


 
There is a social welfare grant available to people living in Ireland who cannot afford the costs of a funeral. I can't remember the exact figure but so far this year it has cost the state around €5m in payments. It would not cost a huge amount to extend that to emigrants who have fallen on hard times. Frankly, I'd sooner see the money spent on that then paying it into Roddy Molloys pension, or storing e voting machines that will never be used.

Many of the people who got into difficulty in the UK got little or no education from the state, may have been sexually and physically abused in state run homes or at home themselves.  In effect, we as a nation crapped on them and then booted them out. It's not that long ago that landlords in London used to have signs "saying no blacks, no dogs, no Irish".

I lived in London for 10 years, I was fortunate in that I had a good education, got a good job and made a good life for myself over there. However I always realised 2 things, firstly it wasn't home, and secondly, when I saw (and did some support work ) for the Irish homeless in London, both young and old, just how fortunate I was. An accident on an uninsured building site, a mugging by fascists skinheads, mental issues, the list goes on of things that could  have happened me but thank God didn't. Not everyone was so lucky

These people are Irish citizens and we have a moral obligation to support them in some way. We waste enough money in this country pointlessly, perhaps here is one occassion when we as a nation could do the right thing.


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## Protocol (2 Oct 2009)

Mpsox said:


> There is a social welfare grant available to people living in Ireland who cannot afford the costs of a funeral. I can't remember the exact figure but so far this year it has cost the state around €5m in payments. It would not cost a huge amount to extend that to emigrants who have fallen on hard times. Frankly, I'd sooner see the money spent on that then paying it into Roddy Molloys pension, or storing e voting machines that will never be used.


 
Fair point.

Here are the details of the Irish scheme:

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/DeathAndBereavement/BereavementGrant/Pages/bereav.aspx


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## Betsy Og (2 Oct 2009)

This is an issue that resonates with me, though I've no major direct involvement. I did work for short stints in the 90's in the Irish emigrant communities in New York & London, and come from a rural background, so maybe thats the interest (though I couldnt confirm the perception that its mainly rural people in difficulty in the UK).

Anyway, I do think its a very worthy cause and it should be top of the queue for Government handouts (on the basis that national charities are more visible and probably get more support from Irish people directly). 

I often think it would be great to volunteer and drive over a van & trailer and do refurbs/redecoration on a few of the properties to try to alleviate the squalor element, a Niall Mellon project for the old Irish in the UK. I can see the snags though:

You'd be refurbing someone elses rental property (doubt any owners).
I'm not a tradesman, ok on decoration though.
The look/comfort of the accomodation is probably not the most pressing need, more likely help re alcohol, mental health etc. which isnt within my abilities.
I've 2 young boys and when they grow up a bit I'd like all 3 of us to go & help out, a view from the other side.

But rather than keep this aspirational, what is the best/a good organisation to donate to specifically for Irish emigrants? I remember the Richie Corrigan show had a hostel for Irish people in London that he tried to help out, perhaps its that or others we should help.

For those who did help out, what type of work was it?, soup runs etc??

So willing to put money where mouth is on this one.


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## villa 1 (2 Oct 2009)

Both of my late parents had to emmigrate to Birmingham in the 50's and believe me they had it hard. No handouts in those days. I know this because I was there for thirteen years and being Irish was tough. That programme was so sad. Bring our Irish emmigrants home. These people deserve to live out the rest of their lives with dignity and respect.
We have no problem giving out new houses and apartments to our west african immigrant friends. There is a glut of unnoccupied property lying idle at the moment, put it to use.


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## z107 (2 Oct 2009)

The point I'm trying to make is do these people _really_ want to come back to Ireland? To a country that treated them like this:


> Many of the people who got into difficulty in the UK got little or no education from the state, may have been sexually and physically abused in state run homes or at home themselves. In effect, we as a nation crapped on them and then booted them out. It's not that long ago that landlords in London used to have signs "saying no blacks, no dogs, no Irish".


It might have been hard in England, but it sounds far worse in Ireland!

As for the discrimination, we experienced very little if any. Landlords used to have the 'no Irish' signs because often they would provide food and the Irish would come in hungry, filthy off of the building sites, drunk, and destroy the house. Not very PC thing to say, but was generally true. There weren't too many Irish stock brokers getting off of Slattery's coach.

This too is a laugh:


> The men used to queue up every morning in places in kilburn/cricklewood waiting for someone to come along and offer them a job even just for that day.


Great to get the cash in hand work. Many of these lads would be off down to the labour exchange later on in the McAlpines van, to sign on.



> When and if you had of endured the hardship that some of these blokes went through you might have a different view. Like having the stuffing kicked out of you weekly by the Mets only because you were Irish. Or trying to show your face after a bomb and you're irish etc.etc.


I also never once got beaten up by the police. I did hear once of an Irish fellow that 'fell down the stairs' in Hammersmith police station, and died. You don't have to be Irish to get beaten up by the police - Black, crusty, nonce or drunk would do just fine.

If these people want to come back to Ireland, Ryanair does cheap flights. Can't see any of them queuing up though. I don't see why they would really want to be buried in Ireland either. A country that didn't want them when they did live there. Looks good for the cameras I suppose.


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## Mpsox (2 Oct 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> The point I'm trying to make is do these people _really_ want to come back to Ireland? To a country that treated them like this:
> 
> It might have been hard in England, but it sounds far worse in Ireland!
> 
> ...


 
It must have been a great life to work on the sites, get cash in hand. That's why so many of them ended up crying in their pints before going back to their bedsits

Some of them, frankly, are too embarrased to come back and let their family know how much of a "failure" they've become

some of them have no where to come back to, no land, no home, no family

Some of them don't want to be a burden to their family back here and fear they would be if they did come back. After all, that is why some of them left in the first place

Many of them can't afford to come back. where do they live once they get off at Dublin Airport?

And yet, to many of them,  home is home..................


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## z107 (2 Oct 2009)

> It must have been a great life to work on the sites, get cash in hand. That's why so many of them ended up crying in their pints before going back to their bedsits
> Some of them, frankly, are too embarrased to come back and let their family know how much of a "failure" they've become
> some of them have no where to come back to, no land, no home, no family
> Some of them don't want to be a burden to their family back here and fear they would be if they did come back. After all, that is why some of them left in the first place
> Many of them can't afford to come back. where do they live once they get off at Dublin Airport?


Sounds like alcoholics.

Well I've recounted some of my experiences of England. I said my piece. This isn't stuff I've seen on the telly, or through visits to England etc, it was reality. Take it or leave it.


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## Betsy Og (2 Oct 2009)

TBH I dont see "repatriation" as a need/solution. Their life is now in the UK, who would they know if they came home?, where would they go? 

If it doesnt sound too cheesy I think maybe an old folks tour is about as much as they'd want, see their home place for a week, meet what few people are still there, organise a grave plot if thats what they want.

What I think is needed is hostels/nursing homes to look after them to alleviate homelessness, give them food and shelter. That would be a start, then see if can help re other problems (though like the old joke about the psychiatrist and the lightbulb, they would need to want to change).

We dont judge the poor in Ireland (at least in terms of who charities will help or the social welfare system supports), so why should we apply harsher criteria to our own overseas? Even if you think its all their own fault, are they still not entitled to/deserving of our help?


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## micmclo (2 Oct 2009)

Every charity claims to be a worthy cause but this is certainly one.

Many of these people sent large amounts of money back to Ireland in remittances, money that was needed here.
They got little or no welfare from the state and few would have secondary or university education. And no chance of employment either!

And now many are elderly and struggling and living in hostels.
Hundreds of millions is in the Foreign Aid budget. I'm sure money can be allocated to running hostels, care homes and whatever is needed. Repatriation is something as well but I think the hostels are a first step and improvements can be immediate.

Realy, it's not charity, it's money being sent to support Irish citizens even if they don't qualify for an Irish pension.


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## MandaC (3 Oct 2009)

Yes, they should be made a priority.

In work, we did research on Cricklewood Homeless and it really opened my eyes.  During the boom years, all our our staff got an annual bonus and part of the unspoken deal was each person nominated a charity and after research, a donation was made to one charity by office, Directors and Staff.  There was a touch of the Secret Millionaires about it, as the charity picked each year got a not inconsiderable cheque in the post from a random office in Ireland made up of five people.  Thanks to my bosses at the time for this life lesson learned making charitable donations part of my monthly outgoings, same as, say my ESB bill.  

The year we did the Cricklewood project was particulary sad.  A lot of people had grown up in the Industrial Schools and had never faced up to their issues.  This is a subject close to my own heart.  

I agree that we should support our own and would rather some of the money for say keeping asylum seekers in this Country go towards looking after Irish abroad who have fallen on hard times and want to come home.


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## z107 (4 Oct 2009)

Betsy Og said:


> TBH I dont see "repatriation" as a need/solution. Their life is now in the UK, who would they know if they came home?, where would they go?
> 
> If it doesnt sound too cheesy I think maybe an old folks tour is about as much as they'd want, see their home place for a week, meet what few people are still there, organise a grave plot if thats what they want.




St Augustine's Church in Hammersmith used to do such tours. At least they did 15 or 20 years ago anyway.
I'm sure they'd welcome a donation, if they still do it.
[broken link removed]

A big problem with these people being repatriated, apart from the obvious ones, is that they mightn't be able to transfer their UK pension once they move out of the UK. Especially if they did lots of cash in hand work and didn't put up enough stamps.


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## mercman (4 Oct 2009)

Betsy Og said:


> Even if you think its all their own fault, are they still not entitled to/deserving of our help?



To those that think it is their own fault shame on those. These are people who slaved strictly to send the money home. How can any human being state that those that were sexually abused it was their own fault. The purpose of this thread was to muster support for those old Irish living in dingy bedsits in the UK or the US, to provide for their final wishes of being buried at home. Maybe the church should be held accountable if not the state. But for heavens sake make a swift and right decision before this one goes down in the annals of history rather than the usual inquiry after inquiry.


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## anniemac (8 Oct 2009)

Protocol said:


> These people would like to be buried in Ireland?
> 
> Ring the Co. Co., book a plot, same as me or you.
> 
> ...



You sound such a prat, my parents went to england worked hard and my dad sent every spare penny he had to help his family at home to get a chance of an education and a good job- there was eight here in Ireland. We were lucky he didnt fall on hard times but many do due to illness [alcohol etc] I agree with those people here are saying it will do us no harm to help those that have little or nothing, sure we have a government that helps themselves and we allow that!


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## Bluebells (9 Oct 2009)

Would the pair of you ever go off and get a copy of Ultan Cowley's book, " The Men Who Built Britian " Find the bit where he gives the amount of money these men put into the Irish economy in postal and money orders, and then speculate, as he does, as to the incalculable amount of _cash_ they also sent.

You should also educate yourself as to why a pub was so central to the lives of these men, and why they spent so much time there. 

You sound like the sort of people who won't give money to a tramp because " they'll only drink it " 

Lose a bit of the arrogance, develop a bit of empathy.


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## Mpsox (9 Oct 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Sounds like alcoholics.
> 
> Well I've recounted some of my experiences of England. I said my piece. This isn't stuff I've seen on the telly, or through visits to England etc, it was reality. Take it or leave it.


 
I actually feel sorry for you, that you have lost your sense of compassion.


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## Purple (9 Oct 2009)

It is important to remember the Ireland these people left and the England they arrived in. For the people concerned; those that did not thrive, they simply could not adjust to the change. 
Many Irish people went from rural areas of 1950’s, 60’s and even 70’s Ireland to urban England. They went from a structured, repressive, slow moving and backward environment into large cities. For the early ones there was no TV to inform them as to what to expect. Their education was, for the most part, very basic. This on its own put them at a huge disadvantage but there were other factors in the mix. 
Take, for  example the number of victims of clerical and institutional abuse that fled to England. Add to that the number of homosexual men who sought to escape, escape to anywhere but here. Then add the men who left rural Ireland in their 40’s and 50’s after their elderly mother or father died and the scrap of a farm that they had eked out a living on offered nothing but a bleak and lonely future. 

These people constitute a minority of the Irish who went to England seeking escape/ opportunity or just something other than what they had, but we are only talking about that minority. 

Should we help them? Yes, of course we should.
What’s the best way? I don’t know know.


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## Yorrick (9 Oct 2009)

I know of one Irishman who went over to England in the laste 50s. He had a job in Manchester but when his employer, a  Mr. Matt Busby, realised he was useless he got rid of him and he spent the the next ten years working in York, Darlington and ended up down in Millwall.
However there is a happy ending he returned to Dublin and subsequently got a cushy job with R.T.E. where he talks rubbish and gets paid for it


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## Purple (9 Oct 2009)

yorrick said:


> i know of one irishman who went over to england in the laste 50s. He had a job in manchester but when his employer, a  mr. Matt busby, realised he was useless he got rid of him and he spent the the next ten years working in york, darlington and ended up down in millwall.
> However there is a happy ending he returned to dublin and subsequently got a cushy job with r.t.e. Where he talks rubbish and gets paid for it



 Lol


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