# Speeding Fine arrived by registered post from Swiss police



## bmount (11 Apr 2017)

Hi all

Went for a 4 day skiing trip with my son driving from Zurich into Austria
in a Hertz car but we went a blistering 23kmph over the speed limit
and I received 4 weeks later yeaterday, wait for it, a 647 Swiss Franc  (620 Euro)
penalty notice from the Swiss Police and wait for it again, by registered post.

I already noticed a 45 euro "admin charge" on my credit card from Hertz for this and assumed
that was the fine and the end of it.

Clearly this is an outrageously extreme amount of money beyond belief really and
wanted to know how do I avoid paying this or appeal and pay
just what you would expect like 70 euro or something.

Note, the letter is  German and I can't even read it and a quick google
tells me I can request it to be in English under EU Law.

Obviously I am on this section of the forum to ask any consumer advice with regard to ignoring
this slightly stressful letter and not get extradited to Switzerland for being a bold boy !


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## Setanta12 (11 Apr 2017)

Query the admin charge first.  Doubt this is related.

How do you know what to expect for a traffic-fine in Switzerland?  I would request the letter in English.


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## Cervelo (11 Apr 2017)

"Dont do the crime if you cant do the time"


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## bmount (11 Apr 2017)

Thanks (?) but its assistance or anyone with previous experience is what I'm looking for.


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## tommygirl (11 Apr 2017)

We were hit with a French speeding fine on return and our car hire company charged an admin fee also (about €30 if I recall correctly). We were advised this related to providing our information to the authorities.


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## Bronte (11 Apr 2017)

bmount said:


> but we went a blistering 23kmph over the speed limit
> and I received 4 weeks later yeaterday, wait for it, a 647 Swiss Franc  (620 Euro)
> penalty notice from the Swiss Police and wait for it again, by registered post.



I've got fines from a  couple of countries, one of which I appealed as I wasn't there.

Here if you go 10 over it's not serious but if you're hitting your 'blistering' 23 over then they whack it on.  I had a friend here that went more than 20 over on the motorway on a quiet evening as he didn't notice ! the speed signs (he's a speeder) he says for the road works.  He was hit for mega bucks too.

You know you did it as you were a _bold boy_ so I suggest you pay up and make yourself aware that just because your foreign you'll no longer get away with ignoring the law.

For others, there's some new law in France for Paris and Lyon about diesel cars and pollution.  And make sure you bring the triangle with you.  It's going to be more common for fines to come from other countries.

There is an app for translating things.  And OP would want to watch out, if he doesn't pay the fine I think he'll find they can automatically increase it.


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## Leo (11 Apr 2017)

You picked probably the worst country in the world to speed in, their system of fines is well documented, fines amounts are linked to the limit in effect, how much over the limit you were going and, for locals, your level of income. Remember the €200,000 speeding fine?

40km/h over the limit in a built up area gets you a minimum one year in jail. 

If you don't pay the fine, they will pursue Hertz. There's a 30 day limit before the fine increases.


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## dub_nerd (11 Apr 2017)

Ditto. Have a sibling who spends a lot of time in Switzerland who says the same. Pay the fine unless you plan to avoid Switzerland for the rest of your life. You can't get out of it and it will never go away.


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## mathepac (11 Apr 2017)

Well done the Swiss traffic cops and Hertz. Pay up and look pleasant OP and in future make yourself aware of local penalties for breaking the traffic laws. 

I've never had a speeding ticket but was asked (at 5:00 am!) to park my rental car so that all the wheels were within the lines of the parking space rather than on one.


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## Leper (11 Apr 2017)

mathepac said:


> Well done the Swiss traffic cops and Hertz. Pay up and look pleasant OP and in future make yourself aware of local penalties for breaking the traffic laws.
> 
> I've never had a speeding ticket but was asked (at 5:00 am!) to park my rental car so that all the wheels were within the lines of the parking space rather than on one.



Well Done! Mathepac.  We need more people like you on our roads.


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## Jim2007 (11 Apr 2017)

bmount said:


> Went for a 4 day skiing trip with my son driving from Zurich into Austria
> in a Hertz car but we went a blistering 23kmph over the speed limit
> and I received 4 weeks later yeaterday, wait for it, a 647 Swiss Franc  (620 Euro)
> penalty notice from the Swiss Police and wait for it again, by registered post.



So you knowingly broke our laws over a period of time?  No doubt they have you on several
speed cameras...



bmount said:


> I already noticed a 45 euro "admin charge" on my credit card from Hertz for this and assumed
> that was the fine and the end of it.



That was probably the fee for handing over your details to the police



bmount said:


> Clearly this is an outrageously extreme amount of money beyond belief really and
> wanted to know how do I avoid paying this or appeal and pay
> just what you would expect like 70 euro or something.



The fine is not that height by our standards.  Clearly they have you on file for multiple breaches
and being 23KM over the limit is meaningless as there is a 7 to 10 KM adjustment so you could 
have been more like 30KM over the limit.  And of course the limit itself has an impact, 30KM in a
60KM zone is far more serious than in say 120KM zone.



bmount said:


> Note, the letter is  German and I can't even read it and a quick google
> tells me I can request it to be in English under EU Law.



Switzerland is not in the EU.  So the language applied is the language of the Kanton (county) where
the fine was issued.  Since it is in German I expect it was issued in Zurich... In any case you don't
have a right to ask for it in English.



bmount said:


> Obviously I am on this section of the forum to ask any consumer advice with regard to ignoring
> this slightly stressful letter and not get extradited to Switzerland for being a bold boy !



Switzerland is a civil law country, so thinks like mitigating circumstances etc... are not considered
by the judge.  It is black and white, the car was in your possession at the time, so the only out is
to prove you were not driving.  If it is the standard form, there should be space to provided details 
of the other driver if one exists, as well how to appeal the fine.

Ignoring it is not an option, the great thing about the Swiss bureaucracy is that your fine will wind it's
way through the court system without you, collecting additional penalties, no show fines and interest 
until such time as it stops being a civil matter and becomes a criminal one.  And that is when things 
can get very nasty.

Best advice is to pay up ASAP, before they add more to it.


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## SirMille (11 Apr 2017)

Were you speeding in a 30kph zone?

I recommend you pay this fine ASAP and accept the admin fee too.

It does sound like you were caught on camera more than once.

By the way, you were 23kph + approx 3% over the posted limit.

A friend of mine  was caught speeding in the city, he was offered this, a week in jail or a 1500CHF fine, he took the fine. He now has a criminal record and will never get a Swiss passport.


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## mathepac (11 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> Well Done! Mathepac.  We need more people like you on our roads.


Thanks! 
I try to help by reporting speeders, cars parked on footpaths and photographing vehicles illegally in disabled parking bays. I also photograph and report vehicles with "For Sale" signs on the side of the road, those with foreign plates, those which appear to be abandoned. I use in-car video on the move and my phone while on foot. Delighted to help.


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## Gordon Gekko (12 Apr 2017)

Pay the fine; Switzerland is unusual in that it's not a banana republic in terms of policing or enforcement. They are the proverbial elephant; they will never forget.


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## Bronte (12 Apr 2017)

mathepac said:


> Thanks!
> I try to help by reporting speeders, cars parked on footpaths and photographing vehicles illegally in disabled parking bays. I also photograph and report vehicles with "For Sale" signs on the side of the road, those with foreign plates, those which appear to be abandoned. I use in-car video on the move and my phone while on foot. Delighted to help.




Thank goodness for you as the Gardai are too busy putting fake figures into the Pulse system.

Jim, the OP is incorrect to suggest that because one is in the EU they are entitled to the document in English. Anyway based on the post it seems they completely understood it and I'm sure it has a bank account to pay on it including the very important reference number to put in when paying, that's very important so they stop this fine blooming.


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## odyssey06 (12 Apr 2017)

One wonders if there's an Ask About Money site in another EU country where they asking what to do with a speeding fine from the Republic of Ireland... I can't imagine out lot are this organized!


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## Bronte (12 Apr 2017)

odyssey06 said:


> One wonders if there's an Ask About Money site in another EU country where they asking what to do with a speeding fine from the Republic of Ireland... I can't imagine out lot are this organized!



Well I'd say they wonder why a mysterious three euro 10 cent appears twice on their credit card bill deducted by hertz, I think it's 2 euro ninty with Avis, Budget give you a brochure on how to pay!!


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## Leo (12 Apr 2017)

Jim2007 said:


> The fine is not that height by our standards.  Clearly they have you on file for multiple breaches and being 23KM over the limit is meaningless as there is a 7 to 10 KM adjustment so you could have been more like 30KM over the limit.  And of course the limit itself has an impact, 30KM in a 60KM zone is far more serious than in say 120KM zone.



€620 is pretty high by our standards! The link I posted earlier details the escalating scale of fines in place.


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## Chelseablue (12 Apr 2017)

On the Garda following fines:, a friend of mine who lives in NI was caught speeding in the south, was stopped and his details taken, the guard told him he would receive a fine in the post however if he didn’t pay there was nothing he could do & he wouldn’t be followed. Can’t see the PSNI doing the same up North


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## dereko1969 (12 Apr 2017)

mathepac said:


> Thanks!
> I try to help by reporting speeders, cars parked on footpaths and photographing vehicles illegally in disabled parking bays. I also photograph and report vehicles with "For Sale" signs on the side of the road, *those with foreign plates*, those which appear to be abandoned. I use in-car video on the move and my phone while on foot. Delighted to help.



Whilst I applaud all of the above, I'm bemused at the focus on foreign plates. It's perfectly legal to continuously drive a foreign registered car here if one keeps ties to one's home country - this can be as little as visiting home once a year.


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## newirishman (12 Apr 2017)

"Visiting home once a year" is not enough. Here's the detailed rules: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/leaflets/temporary-exemption-foreign-registered.html
Guards and Revenue tend to interpret the rules towards having to register the car in Ireland, they usually get away with it, and there's quite some fines associated. Also, your insurance policy might require special provisioning if you drive outside the country of registration beyond usually 30 days.

Reg. the OP: Switzerland has some of the highest fines in place. You either pay up or you will have trouble getting into Switzerland next time, plus potential criminal record. And one has to say the system works as people tend to abide by the laws, something that is absolutely lacking in Ireland.

EDIT: and no, you don't have a right under Swiss law to get the fine in English. Even under EU law, it is linked to the location of the registered holder of the car.
http://etsc.eu/faq-eu-cross-border-enforcement-directive/
Given rental cars are usually registered in the country, you might not get a fine in your own language (you have to get one in English / Irish if you drive your Irish car in the EU though).


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## mathepac (12 Apr 2017)

Sorry, typo "especially those with foreign plates".  This gets the LAs and Revenue interested.


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## Jim2007 (12 Apr 2017)

Leo said:


> €620 is pretty high by our standards!



But the thing is he was not in Ireland and ignorance of the law is no excuse.



Leo said:


> The link I posted earlier details the escalating scale of fines in place.



The link you posted is a broad summary of the federal rules.  It does not take account of the Kanton (county) and community variations.  Also, we don't have enough information to determine how the fine was calculated.  We'd need to know exactly where the offence(s) occurred to figure out the exact fine.


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## Jim2007 (12 Apr 2017)

newirishman said:


> Reg. the OP: Switzerland has some of the highest fines in place. You either pay up or you will have trouble getting into Switzerland next time, plus potential criminal record.



It is not just Switzerland, you can assume that they will share this information with other foreign agencies such as the US etc...  So things like visa and visa waiver applications could become problematic!


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## Jim2007 (12 Apr 2017)

Chelseablue said:


> On the Garda following fines:, a friend of mine who lives in NI was caught speeding in the south, was stopped and his details taken, the guard told him he would receive a fine in the post however if he didn’t pay there was nothing he could do & he wouldn’t be followed.



Apparently there is at least one startup in the US who are trying to buy such debt and follow up on it!  It seems they have already bought some old Italian speeding fines and are chasing the yanks about it


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## SirMille (12 Apr 2017)

The ticket states the location of the Camera that caught you.
This link gives you a fine calculation table
[broken link removed]


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## SirMille (12 Apr 2017)

I am guessing you were caught twice outside built up areas doing between 16-20kph, and once doing between 11-15kph.

Any faster and you would have received a summons.


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## mathepac (12 Apr 2017)

From SirMille link above:

*"*Repeat offences
If you are caught speeding repeatedly, you will be banned from driving for a much longer period. In the case of excessive speeding violations, you will be banned from driving until it has been decided whether to permanently disqualify you. *In addition, you will be assessed by a psychologist to see whether you are fit to drive."*

What are the chances it could happen here?


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## Horatio (12 Apr 2017)

[broken link removed]

It's all there, warts 'n all


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## Horatio (12 Apr 2017)

bmount said:


> Hi all
> 
> Went for a 4 day skiing trip with my son driving from Zurich into Austria
> in a Hertz car but we went a blistering 23kmph over the speed limit
> ...



were you speeding in a built up area?


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## Cervelo (12 Apr 2017)

newirishman said:


> EDIT: and no, you don't have a right under Swiss law to get the fine in English. Even under EU law, it is linked to the location of the registered holder of the car.
> http://etsc.eu/faq-eu-cross-border-enforcement-directive/
> Given rental cars are usually registered in the country, you might not get a fine in your own language (you have to get one in English / Irish if you drive your Irish car in the EU though).



Just wondering if I got a speeding ticket in France does this rule mean I will get a ticket in English and Irish or is the Irish part something I would have to request ??


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## SirMille (12 Apr 2017)

mathepac said:


> *In addition, you will be assessed by a psychologist to see whether you are fit to drive."*
> 
> What are the chances it could happen here?



I have received an embarrassing quantity of speeding tickets and it hasn't happened to me, yet.

Three tickets is nothing to worry about.


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## newirishman (12 Apr 2017)

Cervelo said:


> Just wondering if I got a speeding ticket in France does this rule mean I will get a ticket in English and Irish or is the Irish part something I would have to request ??


You'd probable get ticket in English as it is an official language for Ireland. But you might get an Irish version as well/instead. don't think it is clear cut.


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## Leper (22 Apr 2017)

Punishment should fit the crime, but in this instance the fine is over €600.00.  OK! its the law in Switzerland, but the fine is too much for the over speeding.  Nobody was hurt.  If it were me, I wouldn't pay the fine and I think I could suffer not visiting Switzerland again.  I don't see the Swiss police sending an APB to every Irish Garda station or pursuing extradition. This appears to be a speeding offence not a premeditated murder.


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## Jim2007 (22 Apr 2017)

newirishman said:


> You'd probable get ticket in English as it is an official language for Ireland. But you might get an Irish version as well/instead. don't think it is clear cut.



The official language is Irish and our diplomatic language is French.  The U.K. is the only EU state opting for English.... One can only assume that after BREXIT English will be added in some way or other... The alternative is that we'll all need to improve our Irish!


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## Jim2007 (22 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> If it were me, I wouldn't pay the fine and I think I could suffer not visiting Switzerland again.  I don't see the Swiss police sending an APB to every Irish Garda station or pursuing extradition.



It does not really matter what you see or don't see... The best advice remains to pay the fine ASAP to avoid a significantly higher fine and a criminal record, because that will end up being published by the Swiss authorities under their security cooperation agreements.  That would mean that visa free travel to the US would no longer be an option for the OP for example!


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## PMU (22 Apr 2017)

Jim2007 said:


> The official language is Irish and our diplomatic language is French.


  Not exactly correct. Under Art 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann "1.  The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.  2.  The English language is recognised as a second official language.".  So you could get the ticket in English.  But this throws up an interesting point.  The directive says that  Member States should consider sending the letter concerning road-safety-related traffic offences in the language of the registration documents, or in the language most likely to be understood by the person concerned, but our registration document, i.e. the Teastas Cláraite, is in both English and Irish.  So in which language will the letter be sent?  Or it might just be better not to commit any of the road-safety-related traffic offences that come within the scope of the directive.


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## Jim2007 (22 Apr 2017)

PMU said:


> Not exactly correct. Under Art 8 of Bunreacht na hÉireann "1.  The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.  2.  The English language is recognised as a second official language.".  So you could get the ticket in English.  But this throws up an interesting point.  The directive says that  Member States should consider sending the letter concerning road-safety-related traffic offences in the language of the registration documents, or in the language most likely to be understood by the person concerned, but our registration document, i.e. the Teastas Cláraite, is in both English and Irish.  So in which language will the letter be sent?  Or it might just be better not to commit any of the road-safety-related traffic offences that come within the scope of the directive.



I was talking about the official languages selected by the EU states.  Only the U.K. selected English.  English is clearly needed in the EU so the present arrangement will need to change after BREXIT otherwise there will be no requirement to produce documentation in English.  Either Malta or Ireland need to opt for English or more likely it will be added as a global opinion of some kind.  

Of course the next question will be which English.... and then whether or not the EU still enforces the requirement that all translators are EU citizens.  Bad news for the Brits if they do, good news perhaps for the Americans, Aussies etc if they don't.


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## mathepac (22 Apr 2017)

but Switzerland isn't an EU State ...


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## Cervelo (22 Apr 2017)

Leper said:


> Punishment should fit the crime, but in this instance the fine is over €600.00.  OK! its the law in Switzerland, but the fine is too much for the over speeding.



I don't know about anybody else but I'd rather a large fine and no penalty points then a smaller fine and 3+ penalty points on my licence for the next 3 years??


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## PMU (22 Apr 2017)

Jim2007 said:


> I was talking about the official languages selected by the EU states.


  Sorry, a bit of confusion here.  When Cervelo said 





Cervelo said:


> Just wondering if I got a speeding ticket in France does this rule mean I will get a ticket in English and Irish or is the Irish part something I would have to request ??


 I thought we were discussing the EU Cross Border Enforcement Directive http://etsc.eu/faq-eu-cross-border-enforcement-directive, which allows Member States where a specified traffic offence was committed to pursue and fine the drivers of cars registered in other EU Member States when they commit such traffic offences.


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## SirMille (23 Apr 2017)

While the fine appears high to people not earning in Switzerland, the thing to remember is that everything is super expensive in Switzerland, so the salaries and fines are relative.

Best if this fine is paid.


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## LS400 (23 Apr 2017)

Well, as the op hasn't being back to respond, I can only assume by the posts here they have sent a squad over here to bundle him back to face the charge. 

If it were me, with that overpriced fine, I would be prepared to wait and see what develops, 
Personally, Iv been there, and don't have plans to go back.

It's also all about hedging your bets, there is a 50% chance they will chase you for the funds,
How much do you like skiing there!


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## bmount (19 May 2017)

hello all, 

I have been offline as my son was ill (the skiing one), he is fine now and out of Temple Street 
(a bit more important than a traffic offense all you righteous people out there).

many thanks for all the contributions and expertise (most of them aimed negatively at me but some
agreeing with me and noticing its the *size* of the fine I have a problem with)

To clarify I passwd through 38 tunnels on the way to the resort, my son counted them (yes we have 1 in Dublin) and
I went 23kmph over the 80kmph in one of them. Not multiple from what I can gather .

So here's the update:
I received a "Final Reminder" by registered post again (after getting google translate to help me). It had an
Appeal date that because it wasnt in English it took me a whilre to realise. So I sent a registered letter
on April 18th to the Canton contact number and I appealed the *size* of the fine, not the principle of the
fine itself. I asked them i) assess my means and income in Ireland ii) detail to me
any bilateral traffic agreement between Switzerland and Ireland (there isn't one). 
I told them to stop sending me registered letters.

They have not replied and this is a month later.

I'm hoping by their laws they MUST reply to my Appeal/Objection letter to give me a chance
to again I'm hoping they just drop it. In fact when I emailed them on 16th April saying
I don't understand your document send it to me in English, they were actually helpful
and said (I think this was a hint that it works) "did you see the appeal/objection date".
In other words, appeal to us and it might work.

Thank you very much folks.


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## planck (19 May 2017)

Sorry to tell you this but I think you made a mistake in appealing; in Switzerland every such administrative decision can be appealed but that just triggers another process the costs of which you will also have to pay, I would say there is almost no possibility they will "drop it" or reduce the fine.

The general advice people give here in these situates is pay up at the earliest possible moment (and don't speed again)


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## bmount (19 May 2017)

thanks maybe you re right

are you a policeman by any chance yourself  ? "and dont speed again" 
something my mother might say 
point taken


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## planck (19 May 2017)

No, I'm not, that's simply the advice you get here, don't speed, chances are you'll get caught and you have more or less no chance of fighting the fines, appealing just add to the cost


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## SirMille (19 May 2017)

Pay the fine man, you can well afford it!

Or don't and never visit Switzerland again, or take the chance and have whatever you are driving impounded. Maybe 

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Law of the land, etc, blah blah


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## bmount (19 May 2017)

folks it has been interesting to get your views
and clearly people have strong views on it. im not so sure appealing was such a bad idea as said earlier. at least i didnt ignore it ! which i am absolutely certain half of you would have can we do polls here ?

  i will  update this thread here if nothing happens within 6 months ive made a note to do that
i will also update you if i get further contact.


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## Bronte (20 May 2017)

If you appealed in English I very much doubt that's legal. I say this as someone who lives abroad. You are lucky it's English you replied in, at least there's a good chance though they understand that and might desk with your appeal.

Here I have to do everything legal in English but civil servants who know English will helpful speak to foreigners in English.


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## planck (20 May 2017)

In Switzerland, you are better off "not speeding" and if you do get caught "not appealing", it's too late on those points (although you could check if they've received you appeal and accept is as a valid appeal, if they say no ask if can you pay immediately). Whatever you do, my suggestion to you is not to complicate matters any further, by discussions on international agreements or insisting on everything in English, they might actually take your requests seriously and deal with them but finally you will have to pay for everything and such work does not come cheap. As many have discovered before you, the easiest and cheapest way out is to pay up at the first possible moment.


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## bmount (20 May 2017)

Hi Planck

You are obviously very knowledgeable on this. Can I ask you if you get this, if I have no correspondence from them lets say for the next 6 months, have you any insight into what might be happening with the fine and the appeal at that point ? 

thank you


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## planck (20 May 2017)

This is a frequent coffee-corner topic of discussion with lots of horror stories. My understanding is this:
1) you have challenged the decision, they will check the records, confirm the offence and if you are lucky just confirm the fine and charge you the costs of the appeal (if you are unlucky, they might even increase the original fine but whatever happens they will process it)
2) I think they will not consider issues like "ability to pay" etc at this stage so there was no point appealing on that basis (perhaps that could be dealt with afterwards but the fine is the fine)
3) I think you will hear from them within the next six months, it's not a complicated matter so probably within the next few months, I would be very surprised if you never heard from them again.
4) Having initiated the appeal, perhaps I am wrong but I think you could consider yourself quite lucky if the final bill is less than 1000€
5) Finally, I would still suggest to you to contact them, tell them you misunderstood their letter, apologise for the offence and ask if you could pay the fine immediately. I have never heard of a speeding appeal that went well. Hope that helps.


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## bmount (20 May 2017)

excellent Planck thank you. Just to clarify my appeal letter challenged the *size* of the fine versus EU equivalents and incomes. I accept I must pay *a* fine.
 So I asked for a reduced fine. 
Maybe theres no chance but I made my points in the letter.


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## planck (20 May 2017)

The problem is even if they accepted that argument and went though the process of calculating an equivalent fine (which I think they won't), in a very best case you would end up with a reduced fine but you will anyway pay the costs of the appeal. I think they will reject the argument completely, you committed the offence here and that's the fine here, and now you have the appeal costs also. But it's only my opinion.


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## Jim2007 (20 May 2017)

bmount said:


> excellent Planck thank you. Just to clarify my appeal letter challenged the *size* of the fine versus EU equivalents and incomes. I accept I must pay *a* fine.
> So I asked for a reduced fine.
> Maybe theres no chance but I made my points in the letter.



You are dealing with a Civil Law court not a Common Law court as in Ireland, that means there is no such thing as extenuating circumstances, the letter of the law is applied.  Your only defence could have been that you were not driving and that you were able to supply them with the name of the driver.  You did not do this, but instead wasted their time with a nonsense appeal, meaning you should probably expect they will have upped the total to the max.... I'd expect the next reminder will be north of €1,000 and possibly as high as twice the original fine, say €1,300.

This is not going to go away, because that is not the Swiss way.  If left unpaid it will continue to collect further charges and penalties, of which you will be reminded.  Eventually it will be come a criminal matter.


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## mathepac (20 May 2017)

I'm still struggling to see the validity or relevance of the "shudda cudda wudda" defence. If you were Swiss and were earning a Swiss income you could afford the fine, but you're not so they should reduce it to suit your income as you can't afford it; if you could you wudda paid it. And you can't speak French so they shudda sent you a translation and they're not in the EU but if they were, you cudda done x, y or z. 

You broke the speed limit according to your numbers by c. 29%. In Australia, which is substantially a common law jurisdiction, the penalties for certain traffic offences / moving violations are imposed at the point of detection.  Your vehicle can be impounded (for speeding), your licence can be suspended (for speeding) and fines can be imposed - there is no appeal. The fines take no account of means or other circumstances. You attend the designated State office or court and pay up within the specified time or the penalties may increase, up to and including imprisonment.

Pay the fine or the increased financial penalty before it becomes a millstone around your neck. I hope your son recovers fully and gets to enjoy more Swiss holidays at the discounted EU wages rates.


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## SirMille (20 May 2017)

Jim2007 said:


> You are dealing with a Civil Law court not a Common Law court as in Ireland, that means there is no such thing as extenuating circumstances, the letter of the law is applied.  Your only defence could have been that you were not driving and that you were able to supply them with the name of the driver.  You did not do this, but instead wasted their time with a nonsense appeal, meaning you should probably expect they will have upped the total to the max.... I'd expect the next reminder will be north of €1,000 and possibly as high as twice the original fine, say €1,300.
> 
> This is not going to go away, because that is not the Swiss way.  If left unpaid it will continue to collect further charges and penalties, of which you will be reminded.  Eventually it will be come a criminal matter.


I think the OP is already in possession of his Honar Rechnung, or possible even his first Mahnung.


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## SirMille (20 May 2017)

mathepac said:


> I'm still struggling to see the validity or relevance of the "shudda cudda wudda" defence. If you were Swiss and were earning a Swiss income you could afford the fine, but you're not so they should reduce it to suit your income as you can't afford it; if you could you wudda paid it. And you can't speak French so they shudda sent you a translation and they're not in the EU but if they were, you cudda done x, y or z.
> 
> You broke the speed limit according to your numbers by c. 29%. In Australia, which is substantially a common law jurisdiction, the penalties for certain traffic offences / moving violations are imposed at the point of detection.  Your vehicle can be impounded (for speeding), your licence can be suspended (for speeding) and fines can be imposed - there is no appeal. The fines take no account of means or other circumstances. You attend the designated State office or court and pay up within the specified time or the penalties may increase, up to and including imprisonment.
> 
> Pay the fine or the increased financial penalty before it becomes a millstone around your neck. I hope your son recovers fully and gets to enjoy more Swiss holidays at the discounted EU wages rates.



The salary aspect of this is not relevant. You could be a shelf stacker in Migros (the equivalent of Tesco) and you would still get the same fine.

Appealling is just wasting time and the fine needs to be paid. As Jim said, it is not going away.

This happens to loads of guys buzzing through Switzerland on their way to some track event. They always end up paying, its the Swiss way.


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## Leper (21 May 2017)

SirMille said:


> I am guessing you were caught twice outside built up areas doing between 16-20kph, and once doing between 11-15kph.
> 
> Any faster and you would have received a summons.



1. Three offences, speeding between 16 - 20 kph and 11 - 15 kph,  I could easily cycle at those speeds. €600 minimum fine although the law in Switzerland is steep . And I wonder if the Swiss pay such fines regularly? (They probably do!). Or is this a nice little earner for the local authorities in Switzerland waiting for unsuspecting non Swiss tourists?

2. If the OP never visits Switzerland again and does not pay the fine, What is the likely scenario?


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## SirMille (21 May 2017)

Leper said:


> 1. Three offences, speeding between 16 - 20 kph and 11 - 15 kph,  I could easily cycle at those speeds. €600 minimum fine although the law in Switzerland is steep . And I wonder if the Swiss pay such fines regularly? (They probably do!). Or is this a nice little earner for the local authorities in Switzerland waiting for unsuspecting non Swiss tourists?
> 
> 2. If the OP never visits Switzerland again and does not pay the fine, What is the likely scenario?


Sixteen to twenty kilometre over the 60km speed limit.
I get 20-40 franc tickets all the time.
However those on b- permits need to avoid getting too many low level tickets as it will result in a black mark and time in front of a therapist.

The Swiss pay these fines all the time.

Six hundred is not a minimum fine, twenty Franc our there abouts is. The size of the fine is in proportion to the excess speed.

The size of those fines tells me the OP was bombing post all the other traffic, who, by and large respect the posted limits.

If the OP does not pay the fine, like Liam Neson, they have the ability to hunt you down and by then the fine will be massive and criminal in nature. Extradition warrant not, but time in jail, five days perhaps, if they catch you. And if you were inclined and working there on a visa, no chance of citizenship.


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## paddytheape (30 May 2017)

Ignore the fine and the payment, it was not written in your native tongue so was incomprehensible to you.  End of. 
Are they going to drag you back to Switzerland for a criminal trial in five years time?, get real!  Even Seanie Fitzpatrick walks!


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## SirMille (30 May 2017)

No, it was written in a Swiss national language.

Do you expect us to send out a ticket based upon the drivers language!?

There are hundreds of languages world wide. He sped in Switzerland, he can get an interpreter. Switzerland does not equal EU.


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## paddytheape (30 May 2017)

If you don't intend returning to Switzerland, then ignore it.
If you want to revisit and for peace of mind, then cough up, but pay no heed to the scare mongerers 'they will hunt you down' nonsense.  this is a very minor offence and not worth stressing over.


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## SirMille (30 May 2017)

From another forum


> If you choose not to pay the ticket...DO NOT RETURN TO SWITZERLAND. When you check into a hotel (and sometimes cross the border) police records will list you as a "scofflaw". All hotel records are posted daily with the local comissariat. Then you will be subject to an embarrassing arrest and if you cannot pay...a short imprisonment. Also...like in the USA, these tickets can escalate as time passes. Just pay the bloody ticket and get on with you life...is this really worth all the fuss for $80-90. if you pay it, go to the swiss embassy and keep a record of your payments



If the OP was there once, he will be there again, right?
For me, the path is clear.


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## bmount (30 May 2017)

Im not sure what universe sirmille is on "he can get an interpreter" but thank you paddytheape.

I dont understood the writing in all the letters sent to me other than seeing dates times and chf fine amounts.
 It is 85 euro to translate one page I priced it. There is no way I am paying for that.


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## Leo (30 May 2017)

As speeding is a criminal offence in Switzerland, they can and do issue international rogatories that EU and many other authorities enforce.


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## Cervelo (30 May 2017)

So after nearly 70 replies to your original post, Are you going to pay the fine or ignore it ??


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## bmount (30 May 2017)

I will wait for a reply to my written appeal to the Canton of the size of the fine (648 CHF).


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## bmount (20 Jul 2017)

In the interests of fairness to the lively debate on this. They wrote back in mid June regarding my appeal to the *shocking size* of the fine for 23kmph over, it said (I think, it was in German) I had 2 weeks (I think) to pay the fine without being tracked down (a la Liam Neeson)

So folks most of you will be glad to hear I paid the fine with no extra charges incurred and received a receipt that it was now done and dusted. 

I actually transferred 608 euro by wire transfer to them (the CHF fx rate hit 1.09 there for a while in June).


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## Leo (20 Jul 2017)

Thanks for the closure.


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## Cervelo (20 Jul 2017)

As Leo said "Thanks for the closure"  and I presume now you will be able to go out in public and sleep at night without the worry that the Swiss guard might be looking for you


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## bmount (20 Jul 2017)

Well I live in Dublin so I think a Swiss guard may just be outside their jurisdiction for a speeding fine


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## Nordkapp (20 Jul 2017)

Good stuff Bmount, I hear you can get a speeding fine even for speeding on a bicycle over there. Would be nice if that happened here


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## mathepac (20 Jul 2017)

I think the Swiss guard operate in the Vatican, ensuring you don't park in spots reserved for the PopeMobile.


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## Jim2007 (20 Jul 2017)

Nordkapp said:


> Good stuff Bmount, I hear you can get a speeding fine even for speeding on a bicycle over there. Would be nice if that happened here



Swiss bikes have number plates and must be taxed and insured every year!

[broken link removed]


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## Jim2007 (20 Jul 2017)

mathepac said:


> I think the Swiss guard operate in the Vatican, ensuring you don't park in spots reserved for the PopeMobile.



The Swiss guard is actually drawn from the Swiss army and are responsible for the personal safety of the Pope.  As such in addition to standard military training, they are specialists in close protection, unarmed combat, small arms etc... while they do provide the pomp with the colourful uniforms, most of them operate in plain cloths.  To be considered you must be a practicing Swiss catholic between the ages of 19 and 30.   

It is how a every poorly paid job with very long hours and very strict discipline, but service in the Swiss guard is highly valued in the employment market afterwards. My son is considering it at the moment.


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## noproblem (20 Jul 2017)

*Before applying for the Pontifical Swiss Guard, each recruit must be a single male of Swiss citizenship standing at least 174 cm (5’ 8 “) tall, between ages 19 and 30, and also holding a high school degree or professional diploma.*


*Each recruit must be a faithful Roman Catholic as endorsed by his hometown’s Parish Priest.*


*Each recruit must have completed basic military training in Switzerland in order to continue to the first five weeks of training with the guards in Rome. After this training period, they are known as Halberdiers, owing to their halberds, the primary weapons the Swiss mercenaries used in the 14th and 15th century.*


*After being sworn in, the Halberdiers and their parents get a private audience with the Pope where they receive a personal blessing.*


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## SirMille (20 Jul 2017)

Jim2007 said:


> Swiss bikes have number plates and must be taxed and insured every year!
> 
> [broken link removed]


No number plates any more Jim


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## Leo (21 Jul 2017)

Jim2007 said:


> Swiss bikes have number plates and must be taxed and insured every year!
> 
> [broken link removed]



That was scrapped in 2012.


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## dereko1969 (21 Jul 2017)

It was actually a roundabout way of forcing public liability insurance onto those cycling. From wiki page.

_The Velovignette was not a registration of the bike as such, like a car registration plate. Instead, you were required by law to hold __liability insurance__ for damages you might cause while riding a bike, like scratching a car's paint. Your insurance would issue a small sticker that you would put on your bike to show that the bike was indeed insured. Riding a bike without such a sticker was liable to a fine of 40 CHF (roughly 40 USD). The sticker carried a unique number, so you could link it to the insured person, and you needed to get a new sticker (i.e., pay the modest insurance premium) every year.

As to why this was discontinued at the end of 2011: people nowadays typically carry general personal liability insurance, which also covers damages caused while riding a bike. Some insurers would directly issue a number of stickers to anyone holding their policy, whether or not the household had a bike. At some point, the Swiss legislature argued that administering the specifics of the Vignette scheme was not worth the hassle any more, and the Vignette was abandoned._


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## PaddyBloggit (25 Jul 2017)

What about these guys in a Swiss prison (speeding) for 7 weeks without charge?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4728182/Three-Brits-arrested-speeding-Switzerland-race.html


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## SirMille (25 Jul 2017)

PaddyBloggit said:


> What about these guys in a Swiss prison (speeding) for 7 weeks without charge?
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4728182/Three-Brits-arrested-speeding-Switzerland-race.html



A friend of mine was offered a large fine or a few days in clink. He went for the fine, and it impacted his ability to apply for citizenship.

What I find even weirder is the fact you can be put in Swiss prison while under suspicion of guilt (in this case the suspicion of hiring an Italian assassin to kill th ex-wife). Does it work like that in Ireland? Suspicion but no actual proof!! Guilty until proven innocent, it's the polar opposite of the American system of innocent until proven guilty. By the way, they pulled his wife in four weeks after him and both of them spent the next eight weeks in jail. Happned to my neighbour, a very dodgy character with a large ability to launder money.

The boy racers currently in jail will be released in due course, not that I care. Can't do the time, then don't do the crime. Irish police and judges should be sent here (Switzerland) for training!


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## mathepac (26 Jul 2017)

SirMille said:


> it's the polar opposite of the American system of innocent until proven guilty.


Where did you get that strange notion? How many prisoners are there in US jails because they have been remanded in custody, simply because they cannot raise their bail money or a bond?


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## Purple (26 Jul 2017)

SirMille said:


> happened to my neighbour, a very dodgy character with a large ability to launder money.


 Well you do live in Switzerland so that shouldn't be a shock to you.


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## SirMille (26 Jul 2017)

Lol, so t


Purple said:


> Well you do live in Switzerland so that shouldn't be a shock to you.


Lol, so true. The scams they get up to.


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## Delboy (27 Jul 2017)

SirMille said:


> What I find even weirder is the fact you can be put in Swiss prison while under suspicion of guilt (in this case the suspicion of hiring an Italian assassin to kill th ex-wife). Does it work like that in Ireland? Suspicion but no actual proof!!


You've obviously not being following recent criminal matters in Ireland very closely!


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## SirMille (27 Jul 2017)

What happened?


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