# water charges -apartments and tenants.



## oldnick (2 Aug 2013)

I can't seem to find any definitive info regarding how apartments will be charged for water usage other than a general opinion that they will not be individually metered and thus not individually charged.

I'm not even sure whether the owner or the tenant will be legally liable to pay water charges.I'm assuming the tenant/occupier, but as logic fails the authorities in these cases (as per the property charge) I'm uncertain.

If anyone has any concrete information I'd be most grateful. I've already advised tenants that there'll be a slight increase in rent based on a combination of my greed and the property charge (which may or may not be tax deductible ).

I think it behoves all LLs to make sure tenants understand  that they will also be paying an extra €200/300 ?? P.A.per apt from January 2014.
Or will it be 2015?

Any facts or thoughts welcome.


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## Woodie (2 Aug 2013)

I don't believe that there is a hard and fast rule yet. 
Given that it will take several years to meter everyone you can assume a flat charge for metered homes including apartments.  Some homes and some apartment complexes cannot be metered because  the regulations did not demand an separate feed to each property. Probably it could be  possible technically to meter in the home but because of liability of the water company for the pipes to the point of the meter it is likely that some homes will never be metered.
n the UK the where metering is still not complete after many years the flat charge is usual, however experience is that usually the metered home pays less because you can monitor usage. If you look to their model it is a mixture of standing charge and a value based on rates.  So you can assume a standing charge to start and then something linked to the property tax.


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## Sunny (2 Aug 2013)

The tenants are responsible. Most new lease agreements have carried that clause for a while now since the legislation was mooted. 

Not sure how apartments will be charged. Imagine it will be flat rate. Whole thing will turn into usual Irish farce!


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## jdwex (2 Aug 2013)

The problem with apartments is that it is one public water supply entering a private system For example many complexes would have large water tanks fed by a public main that would then feed individual apartments. Where do you meter that  ?


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## Sunny (2 Aug 2013)

jdwex said:


> The problem with apartments is that it is one public water supply entering a private system For example many complexes would have large water tanks fed by a public main that would then feed individual apartments. Where do you meter that  ?



Not really the problem of people living in apartments though is it? I have no problem with water charges based on usage but if you can't work out the usage, then don't tax. It's like if they suddenly decided to make assumptions about people's income based on industry norms. Tax is supposed to be fair. Once you start making assumptions in the calculation, it stops being a fair tax. 

Why not charge everyone a flat rate? Because its not fair. So why are people in apartments or other difficult to meter places being made suffer?


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## Woodie (2 Aug 2013)

Sunny said:


> Not really the problem of people living in apartments though is it? I have no problem with water charges based on usage but if you can't work out the usage, then don't tax. It's like if they suddenly decided to make assumptions about people's income based on industry norms. Tax is supposed to be fair. Once you start making assumptions in the calculation, it stops being a fair tax.
> 
> Why not charge everyone a flat rate? Because its not fair. So why are people in apartments or other difficult to meter places being made suffer?



Essentially there is no such thing as 100% fair.  Even if you look at taxation their will always be people on the borderline who fall on the wrong side of fair.  

Same is the case in term of metering, no one had the foresight to plan when building for such an eventuality, nor was there adequate building regulation and planning (where have we heard that before).   
Nevertheless it should be still possible to meter apartments fairly in the same block with management company co-operation; a bulk meter where the supply enters the facility and then private meters (privately installed) could see the bills fairly adjusted from the management company based on use.  It just takes some co-operation, planning and doing if there is the will.  On a private street where the pipes go through back gardens and there is no management company the solution is not so easy.  Then there is the problem of lost water between the bulk meter and the individual meter who pays or who is responsible for that?   Not easy by any means but not insurmountable either with innovative thought.


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## ontour (2 Aug 2013)

From Dept of Environment:
"Meters and boundary boxes will be located outside the curtilage of the property in the public footpath or in the grass verge at the roadside."

I have no idea whether there is any legal reason that precludes them from placing the meter on private property.  There is a belief that a lot of water lost in the system is through the pipes that connect the house to the mains.  This would result in the household paying for this loss and therefore encouraging house owners to replace piping from the house to the road / path connection.

If they do not place meters on private property, there will be problems for apartments, mixed developments of shop, offices, residential etc.  That assumes that all the houses are connected to the mains correctly!


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## shesells (3 Aug 2013)

Actually it's way more serious than that. Most apartment leases state that the management company will be liable for water charges for the development. How that is implemented and how it is then levied on units is an absolute legal minefield.


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## Woodie (3 Aug 2013)

ontour said:


> From Dept of Environment:
> I have no idea whether there is any legal reason that precludes them from placing the meter on private property.  There is a belief that a lot of water lost in the system is through the pipes that connect the house to the mains.  This would result in the household paying for this loss and therefore encouraging house owners to replace piping from the house to the road / path connection.
> !



As far as I know the issue is responsibility.  The water company has responsibility for the pipes up to and including the meter itself but any piping and faults after that are the responsibility of the property owner(s).  Think about digging up a pristine garden, extension or hacking up floors, there is no way any water company wants to get into the minefield of compensation for that type of disruption; so easier to have the meter at point of entry outside the property proper.   The problem is that so many builds were made without think that this could be a possibility in the future or to save costs or a bit of both, means that apartments  and many streets with supply pipes running through back gardens instead of the road are going to be impossible to meter fairly at least at the outset.


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## jdwex (3 Aug 2013)

Sunny said:


> Why not charge everyone a flat rate? Because its not fair. So why are people in apartments or other difficult to meter places being made suffer?



Not disagreeing with you on this. I guess what may happen is that there will be one meter going into complex and the OMC will be billed according to usage, with an allowance made dependent on the number of residents. The OMC may put  meters on each apartment supply and bill the owners in arrears as part of the management charge. Of course if it is rented out it is the tenants who should pay, not the owners, which is another complication  . And shesells made another valid point about the lease conditions too!


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## oldnick (3 Aug 2013)

Interesting stuff so far; confirms my feeling that it'll all be a bit messy for a year or two.

Also, despite the message that this payment is for water usage I have no doubt that many tenants will feel that this is another increase on rent, thus making it harder for LLs to charge a real rent increase ( as opposed to increasing rent  due to various charges, taxes,fees etc).


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## ontour (3 Aug 2013)

If the management company is responsible for the water charge, they will take on the responsibility for metering, billing, debt recovery, maintenance etc. etc.  Assuming that commercial water rates are lower than the rates for domestic, the management companies should be billed the commercial rate by Irish Water.  The difference between the commercial and domestic rates would be used to fund the administration, internal infrastructure and maintenance.

Each management company can then decide how to measure or apportion charges.

Alternatively they could set Irish Water up like a true utility and a company like Pinergy could install prepaid meters and manage the customer relationship.


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## Luternau (13 Oct 2013)

I assume if water charges are levied to apt complexes based on a master meter at the mains, this amount will then be apportioned to individual units as per all other charges. (annual budget)

How will the OMC be able to bill the occupier? They have no legal authority to invoice them ? So they bill the owner as per the lease?

Perhaps Water Ireland will bill to each unit-but how would they know how much to bill?

Would an individual owner be able to install a meter of their own and only based on actual usage?

Seems to me that the only way to do this is to install meters on all apts!


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## murphaph (14 Oct 2013)

I live in an old building in Berlin with 12 apartments. Up until this year, we had a single meter in the cellar which the water company uses to meter the building. The management company then simply divided the bill up based on floor area. Sure, we probably "lost" compared to the larger family in the apartment directly below us (same size, but more occupants so more water usage, probably). The broken down charge was applied to other management fees and expenses and can (according to German law) be passed straight on to the tenant by the LL, like bin charges and what have you.

This year meters were installed in all units and these will determine how the bulk meter (the only one the water company cares about) is divided up. When you're being individually metered by the way it definitely makes you more conscious about water waste!


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