# 15 cases decided. Ombudsman upholds 27% of tracker complaints so far. Dismissed 73%



## Brendan Burgess (15 Nov 2019)

*Tuesday, 19 Nov*

*14.00 Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach CR3, LH 2000*


Tracker mortgages and the practice of differential pricing in insurance
_Representatives from Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman_


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

This will be starting shortly.

You can watch it here: 









						Oireachtas committee meeting live stream
					

Live stream of public Oireachtas committee meeting in committee room 3



					www.oireachtas.ie
				




Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

Ger Deering 
Tara Mc  Dermott
Mary Rose McGovern
Diarmuid Byrne 

We are not dealing with complaints as quickly as we would like.
approval to recruit 35 new staff - but it's hard to recruit and retain staff. 

Good explanation of time limits but very fast. 

If the complaint is made outside the time limits, I must find it so. 

But all the main lenders are taking the approach that the vast majority of complaints were made within the time limits.














BB comment: only 27% upheld or substantially upheld 

6 preliminary decisions issued

Full decisions to be published by end of January.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

*Michael McGrath *

2009 article 29th November article by Charlie referred to Joe Meade wrote to Financial Regulator calling for a probe

Could we have saved a lot of time, if the CB dealt with it quicker

What was the outcome then?

Deering:  A complaint was made to the FR but I am not aware of a report
McGrath: Could you share the CB's response?

Can you confirm that some banks did challenge the time limits?

Deering: Yes, they pointed out that certain complaints were outside the time limits.
The legislation said "I shall disallow it..." so I was required to do an assessment.

I can only deal with each complaint. At the moment it's not a problem. but it could become a problem again.

*The complaints you are dealing with*
The different cohorts

AIB  EBS BoI staff ptsb discounted tracker

How are you grouping them?
How do you deal with similar cases?
So the process is efficient.

Deering
Yes. We have categorised complaints
Any decision I make could have implications for other cases.
We send all tracker decisions to the CB for their information.
If we think that it has implications, we will draw the CB's attention to it.

I would expect that decisions on particular cohorts would be applied by the banks to all in that cohort.
However I don't have the power to direct that.

I will be publishing my decisions which will be helpful.

But I might have to rule on every case.

McGrath: Do you have to wait for your annual report to make your decisions?

Deering.No. We will publish in January and more often after that.

*mcGrath*
The CB explains the banks to apply your decisions to others in that cohort. 
It would save a lot of time for you

Deering: and for the complainants. 

McGrath 
You have closed out 455 tracker complaints 

146 investigation and adjudication but you have made only 15 decisions 

Deering: Someone was at an advanced stage but withdrew it becasue they got an offer from the bank in the CB review process 

McGrath: VEry few go to adjudciation

Deering: So far . But that will change.You will see a lot more decisions 

We are approaching adjudication for a lot of decisions. 

McGrath: What is the timeframe for a complaint coming in in 2019.

Deering: longer than we would like.  There is a waiting period for the dispute resolution service (BB: i.e. mediation) 
Adjudication  can be a year to 18 months.


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## Dpdp01050842 (19 Nov 2019)

Thanks for this. How do I read the above? 455 complaints are closed but only 15 decisions? And then there is a further 6 preliminary decisions so 21 in total. How does that match the 455

On another note small numbers but 7/15 or 47% have had some form of positive decision despite being through the independent appeal route. Strong indication that progressing to the Ombudsman is worth doing despite how long it takes.


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## SaySomething (19 Nov 2019)

Strategic plan focussed on improving and speeding up the service. So customers who enter into full investigation and adjudication at the moment can expect their complaints to take 12-18 months but we hope to improve this in 2020.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

Pearse Doherty
Disclosure:  one of my relatives has a complaint with you against PTSB

What are your recruitment problems?

Deering: There is so much recruitment in the public sector that we are losing people to other bodies.
The dispute resolution work we do is in high demand - e.g. the Residential Tenancies Board

They have to start on the first point of the scale, which is very difficult for someone coming from the private sector in Dublin.

*Time limits *
Doherty

Certain time limits still apply?  

How is the legislation working in practice?

Deering: a lot of people think that the time limit is gone. It's not.
It's 3 years since you became aware
We have many files where we spend more time dealing with jurisdiction than with the substantive issue.

When we try mediation , we ask them not to invoke the time limits . But then if mediation fails and we go to adjudication, I might have to rule it out of order.  This really annoys the complainant.

Pearse: Would most of the outstanding cases have been excluded if the legislation had not been changed

Deering: Yes.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

Dpdp01050842 said:


> 455 complaints are closed but only 15 decisions?



Michael McGrath asked this and the rest have been withdrawn as they got satisfactory redress through the CB review. 

So to say that they were resolved by the Ombudsman is misleading. 

Brendan


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## SaySomething (19 Nov 2019)

They are getting quite bogged down with time limits no?


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## Dpdp01050842 (19 Nov 2019)

Thanks BB. 21 is an extremely low number but I guess the below could have had a significant impact on decision speed

“We send all tracker decisions to the CB for their information.”


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## SaySomething (19 Nov 2019)

80% of complaints are resolved through mediation.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

Pearse on the numbers 

234 were resolved through mediation? 

Were they to the benefit of customers 

Deering 
Two categories
Resolved by clarification 
37 resolved by settlement  - including trackers back and compensation 

Pearse: Will you be publishing the outcome of these? 

Deering: Mediation is confidential, but we are a public body. 
Balancing transparency and confidentiality. 

We will publish case studies of mediation.
And we publish statistics 

Another issue is : We have a code of ethics - Maybe this is a systemic issue which should not be settled by mediation, they will withdraw it and refer it for adjudication.  

(BB comment: fair play to them. This is great) 

Pearse: Have the lenders different approaches? 

Deering - in general, they are all working well on mediation. 80% of complaints generally resolved by mediations. 
But we will have issued 500 decisions this year.

Pearse: 146 decisions have been closed? 
They have had complaints with us for some time.  They don't always come back and tell us that they are happy with the bank. 

Could some of them have received an offer mid-stream from the lender? 
Do you know how many were closed to the benefit: 121 got a settlement. 5 were withdrawn.  

43 were closed at registration and review:  Because they had not complained first to the lender. 

*15 decisions *
Can you give me an example of the largest decision 

€50k  in one that was upheld
Also one I directed the lender to put the person back on the tracker 

BB: Seems to imply that partially upheld could be substantial


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

Senator Gerry Horkan 

Deering
Some complaints which came in this year have been settled already because they were straightforward. 

We recruited 43 and lost 38 staff 

Some have been promoted elsewhere. 

We don't use the Public Appointments Service.  They are in the public service but not civil servants. 

The people we had when the legislation changed were civil servants and they have gone back to the civil service instead of being deemed public servants. 

*Trackers *
Horkan:  We saw what the KBC MD said last week.  How do you see the banking industry? 

The tracker issue is dying. I don't expect that many more will come in

Deering:  I don't know. 2018 was the peak
But when I publish my decisions, other might see themselves  as affected by the issue and complain.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

Chairman - John McGuinness 

What do you do if a decision by the bank that someone was not impacted and then the Central Bank find them impacted? 

Deering
We look at all information produced. But we take a fresh look at it.

Chairman: You must have seen a lot of these

Deering: We haven't seen many yet.

If I do see it, I will work with the CB to see should it apply to others. 

Chairman
As you reach a decision ...

What if you think a case is worth more than €500k

Deering: there is no limit on rectification - the value of that could be over €500k, but separately from that I can award up to €500k 

Chairman
How often to you meet the BPFI? 

Deering:

They organise a meeting twice a year to meet the people who handle complaints?   We do it with the Insurance Ireland as well. 

Chairman:  Are you not being soft soaped by them? 

Deering
It's an open and transparent meeting. And works much better for us than meeting them all individually.   I am familiar with the idea of regulatory capture.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

Dpdp01050842 said:


> I guess the below could have had a significant impact on decision speed
> 
> “We send all tracker decisions to the CB for their information.”



No.  The Ombudsman does not discuss cases with the Central Bank until after a decision has been made.

Brendan


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## Dpdp01050842 (19 Nov 2019)

I see. It’s great that decisions are coming through but it’s a slow slow process for sure. 21 decisions / preliminary findings is not an output I would have expected given this is 10 months into the year. Even if this picks up significantly to 20 decisions per month it will be years for them to get through things. Hopefully the forms of streamlining will improve. Quarterly updates are obviously welcomed.


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## Gimmestrength (19 Nov 2019)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Ger Deering
> Tara Mc  Dermott
> Mary Rose McGovern
> Diarmuid Byrne
> ...


Brendan are you basing the 27% v 73% figures (the headline on this thread) on the four cases out of 15 that have been upheld or partially upheld ? If so these are tiny numbers to be drawing any valuable inference from where there are 1174 cases still to be decided upon (not counting any new cases lodged)


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## john_mcm (19 Nov 2019)

The 12 to 18 month timeframe given, does that include the back and forth communication/questions between the ombudsman and the bank and the customer? My initial complaint has a registration date of November 2018?


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

Gimmestrength said:


> If so these are tiny numbers to be drawing any valuable inference from



Hi Gimme

Fair point. I typed the heading while I was listening to the hearing.

I have now updated to say that it's only 4 cases. 

It's a strange one.   If he upholds the AIB prevailing rate issue , then the percentage upheld would go way up. If he rejects it, the percentage will go down.

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Nov 2019)

john_mcm said:


> The 12 to 18 month timeframe given, does that include the back and forth communication/questions between the ombudsman and the bank and the customer?



Yes. But I would say that even if you refuse mediation and don't reply to the bank's response, it will still take 12 months. 

Every response you make extends it out further.

Brendan


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## Dpdp01050842 (19 Nov 2019)

Yes I’m 17 months since the investigation phase started and I made only one 5 line response to the bank comments. I’d think 12 months is the minimum.

Detailed in this post 




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						AIB - My case is with the Ombudsman now for two years and no decision
					

Case: Overcharged 38,000 on a buy to let property over 5 years. Never missed any interest or principal payment but had to borrow from a relative for 4 of the 5 years. Profitable investment turned unprofitable so sold property at an 80k loss in 2015 voluntarily.  April 2017: Appeal rejection...



					askaboutmoney.com


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## October2019 (19 Nov 2019)

Thanks Brendan. Based on this do you think people who haven’t made a complaint to the Ombudsman should now fo so? I haven’t made one yet ( I am part of the AIB cohort) as I know that a complaint from this cohort has already gone in and didn’t want to clog up the system- thanks again


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Nov 2019)

October2019 said:


> do you think people who haven’t made a complaint to the Ombudsman should now fo so?







__





						AIB - Appeals Panel rejected my prevailing rate appeal. Should I go to the Ombudsman now or should I wait?
					

This has come up a few times and I want to tease it out a bit.   This was my initial view:  Advantages of making a complaint now   You make sure that your argument is made and made the way you want it The sooner you start the sooner you get a decision  Advantages of waiting   If the Ombudsman...



					askaboutmoney.com


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