# John Waters on the Quinns



## DerKaiser (28 Jul 2012)

[broken link removed]

A truly sickening article and an insult to everyone footing the bill for Quinn's farcical efforts at running an insurance company in the UK which will cost us all €1bn in increased insurance premiums and for those who will bear the brunt of the Quinns dealings in the Ukraine that swindled the state out of €500m.


----------



## blueband (29 Jul 2012)

strange that 'anglo' a bank thats largely responsible for destorying the irish economy, is now suddenly the 'good guy'!.........what a funny race of people we are.


----------



## Sunny (29 Jul 2012)

blueband said:


> strange that 'anglo' a bank thats largely responsible for destorying the irish economy, is now suddenly the 'good guy'!.........what a funny race of people we are.



Who thinks or is saying that Anglo are good guys? Anglo are gone. We have to try and minimise the cost of that to the taxpayer and that means not allowing a family like the Quinns hide over half a billion worth of assets that belong to IBRC and in turn the taxpayer. Courts in Ireland and across the world have found against the Quinns. Yet they seem to think they are above little things like court orders. 

If it makes you feel better if Quinn gets one over on the evil IBRC to the tune of about €500m then good luck to you.


----------



## blueband (29 Jul 2012)

im not in any way sticking up for quinn, he brought about his own downfall through sheer greed. but anglo were far from blameless in all this.  and just changing the name dosent wash away its sins!


----------



## T McGibney (29 Jul 2012)

The entire issue would be moot were it not for the lunatic decision of the Cowen regime to socialise the already spectacularly bankrupt Anglo in September 2008. This action, and the motives behind it, have yet to be properly investigated and none of those responsible has yet to see the inside of a police barracks let alone Mountjoy. 

But let's forget all that and blame and demonise Quinn instead...


----------



## Sunny (29 Jul 2012)

T McGibney said:


> The entire issue would be moot were it not for the lunatic decision of the Cowen regime to socialise the already spectacularly bankrupt Anglo in September 2008. This action, and the motives behind it, have yet to be properly investigated and none of those responsible has yet to see the inside of a police barracks let alone Mountjoy.
> 
> But let's forget all that and blame and demonise Quinn instead...



Again who is forgetting anything? It wasn't Anglo or Cowan that made Quinn use his insurance company as a cash cow for the rest of his group and therefore made it insolvent and left ordinary people to pick up the tab. That was all Quinn. 

This is not trying to demonise anyone. Quinn is simply one of many people who still play the victim for what happened. It's his actions since entering bankruptcy that I have a real problem with. And so does the High Court. That has nothing to do with the guarantee and so would not be a moot point. I would feel the same if he owed the money to any other bank and not one owed by the taxpayer.


----------



## DerKaiser (29 Jul 2012)

It's worth reading this:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...illions-and-now-owe-us-a-fortune-3154408.html


----------



## One (30 Jul 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> A truly sickening article and an insult to everyone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Kerrigan (30 Jul 2012)

Its more than Waters defending Quinn, we now have clergy, TV presenter, sport manager and 3,000 out in support of him.  What a funny little nation we are.


----------



## Betsy Og (30 Jul 2012)

Maybe the point they are making is that at least Quinn did some good things before his difficulties, what did David Drumm or Seanie or Fingleton or Boucher Hayes or Sheehy (stick down a few more if ye can think of them) do for the country (endlessly rolling up loans for paper profits doesnt count)????, and yet who has the legal system and 'de meeejah' singled out for special treatment ..................

I know its simplistic and self-serving to say that its all a D4 conspiracy 'agin' Quinn, but you see how it has an easy appeal to people who, with some justification, would make the argument above. Maybe when Seanie has his day in court people will feel the scales are being balanced - it's one way traffic at the moment and I'd say locals feel that someone is being unfairly villified when those with far less to recommend them seem to have immunity.


----------



## Sunny (30 Jul 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> Maybe the point they are making is that at least Quinn did some good things before his difficulties, what did David Drumm or Seanie or Fingleton or Boucher Hayes or Sheehy (stick down a few more if ye can think of them) do for the country (endlessly rolling up loans for paper profits doesnt count)????, and yet who has the legal system and 'de meeejah' singled out for special treatment ..................
> 
> I.


 
Sean Fitzpatrick built up Anglo from a small bank to break the monopoly that AIB and BOI had on Irish banking. Anglo provided thousands of direct jobs and thousands of indirect jobs. He didn't force the Government to issue the Guarantee. Are we saying we should feel sorry for him? 

The Quinns have admitted that they broke the law by putting assets beyond the reach of their creditors. They have been found in comtempt of court orders. One of them is on tape saying that he would have no problem lying to a High Court Judge. If the Quinns feel like they are being singled out, maybe they should ask themselves why...

And that's ignoring what they did with the Insurance company.

Quinn is not the only case at the moment either. Look at the case involving Brian O'Donnell. Maybe the IRFU and the media should organise a protest rally in support for their fallen D4 comrade.


----------



## blueband (30 Jul 2012)

Kerrigan said:


> Its more than Waters defending Quinn, we now have clergy, TV presenter, sport manager and 3,000 out in support of him. What a funny little nation we are.


last i heard it was closer to 5,000 people.


----------



## Betsy Og (30 Jul 2012)

Sunny said:


> Sean Fitzpatrick built up Anglo from a small bank to break the monopoly that AIB and BOI had on Irish banking. Anglo provided thousands of direct jobs and thousands of indirect jobs. He didn't force the Government to issue the Guarantee.]


 
What was the phrase? "The greatest single banking loss in the world.....ever" or something like that. If you think the Quinn's lied, I'd say you could put the house on it (unfortunate analogy I know) that the bankers lied on the night the guarantee was given, even Lenihan and Cowen wouldnt have signed up for this morass. 

Anglo were the biggest single cause of banking madness in the country, they had the blueprint and the rest ended up competing with Anglo, on Anglo's terms. They were poison for Irish banking.


----------



## Kerrigan (30 Jul 2012)

blueband said:


> last i heard it was closer to 5,000 people.



Hmmm, 5,000 people = shocking. 

Parish pump business on a large scale.

I recently spoke to an employee who wouldn't hear a word said against their ex employers, it says a lot.


----------



## DerKaiser (30 Jul 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> What was the phrase? "The greatest single banking loss in the world.....ever" or something like that. If you think the Quinn's lied, I'd say you could put the house on it (unfortunate analogy I know) that the bankers lied on the night the guarantee was given, even Lenihan and Cowen wouldnt have signed up for this morass.
> 
> Anglo were the biggest single cause of banking madness in the country, they had the blueprint and the rest ended up competing with Anglo, on Anglo's terms. They were poison for Irish banking.


 
Did you leave out the key phrase "Are we saying we should feel sorry for him?" in quoting Sunny because 
(1) you didn't understand that it was the central point of his argument, or
(2) you understood his point and wanted to misdirect the thread?

It would be best to keep this thread to the rights or wrongs of Sean Quinn's actions. 

John Waters believes his biggest failing was being too ambitious.  I happen to agree with the fact that he shouldn't be gloated at for being ambitious and failing. But I don't agree that this was his biggest failing. 

His biggest failing in my eyes has been his own reaction to his downfall.  He has taken illegal measures to put his assets beyond the reach of his creditors. 

His second biggest failing is his failure to recognise that in doing this he is not hurting the people he might rightfully believe caused his downfall (the main culprits are all well removed at this stage), instead he is directly hurting the individuals of the state.


----------



## Sunny (30 Jul 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> What was the phrase? "The greatest single banking loss in the world.....ever" or something like that. If you think the Quinn's lied, I'd say you could put the house on it (unfortunate analogy I know) that the bankers lied on the night the guarantee was given, even Lenihan and Cowen wouldnt have signed up for this morass.
> 
> Anglo were the biggest single cause of banking madness in the country, they had the blueprint and the rest ended up competing with Anglo, on Anglo's terms. They were poison for Irish banking.



I don't disagree but why is Quinn different considering we are left with a €1 billion bill because of what he did with his insurance company. Why does he get to be treated differently?


----------



## cork (30 Jul 2012)

Complete failure of regulation here.

How many were working in the Dept Of Finance/Central Bank/ Regulator?


----------



## Betsy Og (30 Jul 2012)

DerKaiser & Sunny, I think its just a difference of scale on the +'s and  -'s of each of them.

I dont think Seanie's contribution on the + side is anything like Sean Quinn's. On the - side, if 1bn was the extent of Anglo we'd all be delighted, and that's ignoring the rest they dragged with them. 

I'm not saying Sean Quinn is an angel, he done wrong, I suppose it's just unfortunate that he's the first one to get rigours of justice, and the optics of it lead people, who dont need much prompting, to conclude that it the D4 meejah taking it out on one heretofore hero. Now if they dont end up nailing Seanie and the rest, and I wouldnt like to be betting they will, then the martyrdom of Sean Quinn will be complete.


----------



## blueband (30 Jul 2012)

i think its seen by many as the might of the state taking on sean quinn, and giving that many people have a deep mistrust of the state, its only natural to assume there will be plenty to take his side.


----------



## Sunny (30 Jul 2012)

Sean Fitzpatrick was made bankrupt and has been charged. Sean Quinn was made bankrupt. He wasn't charged with anything. The reason he is in so much legal difficulty has nothing to with what he did while in business or how many billion he lost. He is trouble because he has basically stuck two fingers up to the law of this land. Anyone who has done what he did deserves exactly the same. 

If an ordinary person came on AAM saying how he was looking to hide assets from his creditors and lie to the High Court, they would be slaughtered. Yet the Quinns are somehow different. And then we wonder why the rich seem to think they can get away with anything.


----------



## notagardener (30 Jul 2012)

The man is getting madder by the day, I tuned into the Last Word on my way home this evening and found myself for once agreeing with Hook. Water's arguments were ridiculous, one listener thought the Water's interview was a Mario Rosenstock/Gift Grub gag


----------



## Niall M (31 Jul 2012)

Why were the people of cavan out in support of him, I thought he lived in the north of ireland all his life, and tried to become bankrupt up there, oh wait, maybe that was another lie.....


----------



## markpb (31 Jul 2012)

Niall M said:


> Why were the people of cavan out in support of him, I thought he lived in the north of ireland all his life, and tried to become bankrupt up there



That's not really the point though, is it? 

It doesn't matter to them where he lives or claims to live. They're supporting him because the people he hired were in Cavan and Fermanagh (and Navan, Newbridge, Galway, Longford, Dublin, England, Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, Slovakia, Russia and the Czech Republic).


----------



## blueband (31 Jul 2012)

Kerrigan said:


> I recently spoke to an employee who wouldn't hear a word said against their ex employers, it says a lot.


probably says he was a good employer!


----------



## DrMoriarty (31 Jul 2012)

Just ask the lovely [broken link removed].

I used to take the view that John Waters had simply "got God" and gone a bit nutty, or nuttier than he was. But lately I've had to conclude that he really just likes toadying to the rich and powerful, in or out of a collar.


----------



## DerKaiser (31 Jul 2012)

I've seen it all now - Fintan O' Toole on the ball with a very clear, logical and well thought through argument!

One of the more worrying things or me is how political the GAA have become recently.  Several current county managers have run for election to the dail (many successfully), many of them were wheeled out for Lisbon, they refused to talk to RTE over RTE's internal GAA commentry rostering and now this. Whatever happened to "Shut mouth catches no flies!"


----------



## T McGibney (31 Jul 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> One of the more worrying things or me is how political the GAA have become recently.



This is unfair. The GAA, by its own rules, is a strictly non-political, non-sectarian organisation. It is not permitted to take part in, or facilitate, political movements or causes.



DerKaiser said:


> Several current county managers have run for election  to the dail (many successfully), many of them were wheeled out for  Lisbon, they refused to talk to RTE over RTE's internal GAA commentry  rostering and now this. Whatever happened to "Shut mouth catches no  flies!"


Its a free country. GAA/IRFU/FAI/ICA/charity membership should not debar individual members from running for election or expressing opinions in a personal capacity.

And if Mickey Harte decides not to talk to RTE (particularly after the John Murray Show made fun of his dead daughter), he is free to do so if he feels like it.


----------



## Purple (31 Jul 2012)

I agree that the GAA is non political and I'm an admirer of it as an organisation, but I wouldn't accuse it of being non-sectarian.


----------



## Sunny (31 Jul 2012)

T McGibney said:


> This is unfair. The GAA, by its own rules, is a strictly non-political, non-sectarian organisation. It is not permitted to take part in, or facilitate, political movements or causes.


 
I think you will find that their rules state that they are strictly '_non-*party* political'. _

I know they have made massive strides in recent years but historically, I don't think anyone can claim that the GAA were non-political. Rule 21 comes to mind. There are still pockets of the GAA that are extremely political. 

I agree that it is a free country though and the people are free to show their support. 

As for Mickey Harte and RTE, there was also that 4 page letter and boycott he organised against RTE about their treatment of his good friend Brian Carthy. He was free not to talk them after that sketch but he organised other managers to boycott RTE because of Carthy.


----------



## Sunny (31 Jul 2012)

This is a good piece. 

[broken link removed]


----------



## T McGibney (31 Jul 2012)

Sunny said:


> I think you will find that their rules state that they are strictly '_non-*party* political'. _
> 
> I know they have made massive strides in recent years but historically, I  don't think anyone can claim that the GAA were non-political. Rule 21  comes to mind. There are still pockets of the GAA that are extremely  political.



Agreed. But it has been GAA policy at all levels for many years to steer as far clear as possible from politics. That is not to say that occasional breaches occur.



> As for Mickey Harte and RTE, there was also that 4 page letter and boycott he organised against RTE about their treatment of his good friend Brian Carthy. He was free not to talk them after that sketch but he organised other managers to boycott RTE because of Carthy.


Again, its a free country. Harte and his fellow managers have no moral or contractual obligation to speak to RTE or other media. Regardless of the merits or otherwise of his arguments, he was well within his rights to canvass support amongst his peers. That he did so is utterly irrelevant to the issue of politics within the GAA.


----------



## DB74 (31 Jul 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Harte and his fellow managers have no moral or contractual obligation to speak to RTE or other media. Regardless of the merits or otherwise of his arguments, he was well within his rights to canvass support amongst his peers. That he did so is utterly irrelevant to the issue of politics within the GAA.



However Quinn does have a legal obligation in regard to his debts to Anglo. You can't have your cake and eat it.


----------



## T McGibney (31 Jul 2012)

DB74 said:


> However Quinn does have a legal obligation in regard to his debts to Anglo.



Have I disputed that?


----------



## T McGibney (31 Jul 2012)

Purple said:


> I agree that the GAA is non political and I'm an admirer of it as an organisation, but I wouldn't accuse it of being non-sectarian.



Why?
http://ulster.gaa.ie/2011/04/2011-cuchulainn-cup/


----------



## Purple (31 Jul 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Why?
> http://ulster.gaa.ie/2011/04/2011-cuchulainn-cup/



There's more than a little historical overhang there. 
I agree that they are moving in the right direction but they are not there yet.

I support my local GAA club. I go to Croke Park for Hurling matches. I'm a fan. That doesn't mean I'm blind to the historical and cultural shortcomings of the organisation or what it overcame to get to where it is.


----------



## dereko1969 (31 Jul 2012)

T McGibney said:


> Why?
> http://ulster.gaa.ie/2011/04/2011-cuchulainn-cup/


 
I'll see that and raise you with this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18322046


----------



## T McGibney (31 Jul 2012)

I agree. That was a total disgrace.


----------



## Betsy Og (31 Jul 2012)

People have to realise that there's a constituency out there, beyond the Pale, that haven't much time what a high court judge has to say, or the righteousness of the media. They know their man who delivered them jobs and did good things where the apparatus of the State was lacking for so long.

I know it's simplistic - and I'm not saying its right - but all I'm trying to do is explain why 5,000 turned out in Cavan - maybe it's Planet Quinn but it doesnt seem that alien to me.

Re the GAA - beyond the 6 counties its probably the most successful institution in the history of the state, and for a bit before then. In the 6 counties the stated nationalist ethos morphed into Republican ethos and there's still some extracating to be done there - at least the PIRA are out of business so its not an active link at this stage. It would of course help the cross community appeal (&non-politicisation of sport in general) if clubs werent called after 'volunteers' and there no more of the carry on like that medal presentation.


----------



## DerKaiser (31 Jul 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> People have to realise that there's a constituency out there, beyond the Pale, that haven't much time what a high court judge has to say....


 
Are you genuinely comfortable with Quinn's shenanigans in Russia/Ukraine?

For me it doesn't sit well with the image of an honest, low key, big hearted, country fella who just wanted to work hard and create a few jobs for the area.


----------



## Betsy Og (31 Jul 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> Are you genuinely comfortable with Quinn's shenanigans in Russia/Ukraine?


 
As I said from the outset its not right but its understandable, desperate times call for desperate measures. So no, I'm not comfortable with it, but it doesnt fully overturn the previous good (does a heck of a lot of damage to it mind you, as does the greed/recklessness/downright stupidity in the Anglo dealings, and being loose with the law on the UK insurance side).

All I can say is that I dont think he deserves the same bile as I'd reserve for Seanie, David Drumm etc etc, because a) the scale of their destruction, b) the lesser positive contribution up to that & c) being v. honest here, they wouldnt ever have been "my kind of people".

5,000 in Cavan say "he's our kind of guy", "he's one of our own", no more no less for many of the 5,000 I'd say.


----------



## DerKaiser (31 Jul 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> All I can say is that I dont think he deserves the same bile as I'd reserve for Seanie, David Drumm etc etc


 
Thanks Betsy Og.

I think there's just a lot of bile out there at the moment.

I take the point that Sean Quinn is not an evil man and does not intend to hurt anyone.  He has done wrong, though, and the only fair outcome is that he be held accountable under our laws.

I would say the same about Seanie Fitz or Fingleton. They may have believed in their businesses every bit as much as Quinn, having invested their whole life in building them up. They too have done wrong where they should have known better, and will also be held accountable under law.

The overriding point is that we shouldn't kick failed entrepreneurs when they are down, simply because they have failed.  It's not immoral, it's certainly not a crime and in most cases they did a lot of good when times were good.

What we have witnessed, however, goes beyond the simple failure of a business.  In the case of Anglo we saw desperate and dubious attempts to avoid failure. In Quinn's case there has been desparate and dubious attempts to put his assets betond the reach of his creditors.  When the laws of the land are applied fairly and appropriately I think we'll all relax a little.


----------



## Complainer (31 Jul 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> I take the point that Sean Quinn is not an evil man and does not intend to hurt anyone.  He has done wrong, though, and the only fair outcome is that he be held accountable under our laws.
> 
> I would say the same about Seanie Fitz or Fingleton. They may have believed in their businesses every bit as much as Quinn, having invested their whole life in building them up.



I got that impression about Seanie Fitz when I saw his list of assets in his bankrutpcy proceedings. I really did look like he believed his own press. There was no sign of any significant diversification of investment - property, property, property.

Here's today's update on the mighty Quinn; http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0731/quinn-insurance-administration-could-cost-1-6bn.html


----------



## cork (1 Aug 2012)

During the Celtic Tiger era - these people were put up in pedestal.

The complete failure of regulation & supervision was a disgrace.

Who were the auditors of these companies?


----------



## DB74 (1 Aug 2012)

Good article from Fintan O'Toole today about it

[broken link removed]


----------



## daithi (3 Aug 2012)

..when Sean Quinn described himself in court as a "simple farmer's son" he lost any credibility that he ever may have had IMO. 

Daithi


----------



## Purple (7 Aug 2012)

daithi said:


> ..when Sean Quinn described himself in court as a "simple farmer's son" he lost any credibility that he ever may have had IMO.
> 
> Daithi



Maybe his father was a bit simple but it's not a very nice thing to say about your own Dad...


----------



## Betsy Og (9 Aug 2012)

Have to say my sympathy is starting to ebb away, at the rate Sean Quinn is going he's going to make himself the new Comical Ali. His assertions that the courts ruined his perfectly good company dont seem to stack up when there's a gaping hole of up to €1.6 Bn. 

Powerful and all as the (illuminati) D4 cabal are, I dont think they caused that. No doubt Jim Corr's CV is being enthusiastically received for the new role as Quinn family PR manager ..........................


----------

