# Child Benefit



## Watcher (10 May 2009)

Sorry if this has been broached before, but what are your views on the possible ammendments to child benefit in the coming months?
I've read debates on it being means tested (which I dont believe it can be) and taxed (interesting option but a political suicide)...
what can be done? should anything be done?

interested in opinion


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## Swallows (10 May 2009)

Hi Watcher, I presume you are referring to  the recent Irish budget. It was definitely announced that one or other of the options you speak of to do with child benefit will happen. It's only a matter of time. Why do you think it cannot be means tested?


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## LLDLY (10 May 2009)

I heard one of the ministers say that means testing the CB would be very expensive. Although I wouldn't rule it out knowing this government. Taxing it seems the obvious choice


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## clownie (11 May 2009)

If they get rid/cut CB then all children should get free gp visit cards. The cost of gp and hospital visits are not going down but in general peoples wages are. It is dreadful to think that parents would hesitate about bringing their child to doctor etc because of the cost. In UK CB is low but free gp, school books etc.


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## alaskaonline (11 May 2009)

they're going to reduce the CB to € 150 as they cannot mean test it or tax it - there is a clause in the EU law that would challenge this decision and our government legally (if they do the above). it was on the radio last week and i well believe it. i wondered with the last budget announcments already where they get these ideas from due to the EU laws but just shows that our government doesn't have a clue at all.


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## redstar (11 May 2009)

Its not just EU laws. It appears the Irish Constitution may not allow means testing or taxing of CB.

Article 41 guarantees to support the family, which is taken to mean all families alike.

See [broken link removed]


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## AnnieC (11 May 2009)

Hopefully there won't be a referendum to amend that Article so!

In my personal situation, both the Child Benefit and soon to be axed Early Childcare Supplement allowed me to go part-time so my daughter had a balance of being in creche & being at home with me, so these cuts will very much affect our household income.


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## alaskaonline (11 May 2009)

> Hopefully there won't be a referendum to amend that Article so!


 
I don't think any irish referendum can overwrite the EU law, am I right in saying this? As far as I am aware, the EU law stands above the irish law in this case.


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## Gervan (11 May 2009)

> If they get rid/cut CB then all children should get free gp visit cards. The cost of gp and hospital visits are not going down but in general peoples wages are. It is dreadful to think that parents would hesitate about bringing their child to doctor etc because of the cost.


 
I'd second clownie's suggestion. I have sat all night by my son after he had fallen out of a tree onto his head, terrified he had concussion, but without the money to pay for the doctor.
If on a really low income there is a medical card, but for the "working poor" every penny is needed. I wouldn't mind the children's allowance being means tested, and just going to those who need it.


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## clownie (12 May 2009)

Gervan,

I am very sorry to hear that you were in the position where you couldn't bring your son to the doctor. I think it is absolutely disgraceful that any child should be in this position (and really hard for the parent). The government have made it really difficult for parents. A gp is minimum €50 and if a parent can't afford this there are no other options for them. It is an appalling situation and a situation that a lot more parents are going to find themselves in.


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## mathepac (12 May 2009)

alaskaonline said:


> ... As far as I am aware, the EU law stands above the irish law in this case.


The issue is not Irish or European law - it is the State Constitution.

In order to effect Constitutional change, a referendum is required.

(p.s. I just noticed your user-name - is that you Sarah? How's Todd?)


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## dragonl (13 May 2009)

Like many others I rely on CB to supplement our income - if it is taxed or means tested I will either have to go back to work FULL TIME (now on 4 days per week - using parental leavel) or GIVE UP altogether - one is bad, the other worse - but I will genuinely be faced with that dilemma.

With all the other levis etc.  it might actually be as 'efficient' financially to take a redundancy and go on the dole. AND I am on a pretty good salary (Excess 60k) but have 4 children in childcare, am single income household and pay full whack on GP visits etc. etc....  I think the CB will be the last straw for me.. and if my children lose their child benefit because I am out working (and they are in childcare) then I think it better for us all that I just stay at home - What d'ya think!


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## MelF (13 May 2009)

A journalist recently made the point that CB (is that chidren's allowance or is this a different payment?) was originally introduced way back to allow women whose husband's spent the weekly wages in the pub feed and clothe the kids - but is outdated nowadays as some women are using it to get their hair done (massive generalisations but it was the Indo!)


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## alaskaonline (13 May 2009)

mathepac said:


> The issue is not Irish or European law - it is the State Constitution.
> 
> In order to effect Constitutional change, a referendum is required.
> 
> (p.s. I just noticed your user-name - is that you Sarah? How's Todd?)


 
state constitution or not, if the EU law states that every child in the EU is entitled to some kind of child benefit then no referendum in Ireland can change that. The EU law is above the irish one - at least that's how I understood it. 

And no I am not Sarah


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## orka (13 May 2009)

alaskaonline said:


> state constitution or not, if the EU law states that every child in the EU is entitled to some kind of child benefit then no referendum in Ireland can change that. The EU law is above the irish one - at least that's how I understood it.


What is the EU law you keep mentioning?  Sounds like a red herring to me.  Even if there is a law stating that every child is entitled to SOMETHING, why couldn't this be 1c per child?  The UK gives a lot less than us and I can't imagine the east european states give anywhere near what we do.  So why/how does EU law prevent us reducing or effectively removing CB? (Not saying I think this should happen, just curious about your view that this CAN'T happen...)


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## redstar (13 May 2009)

orka said:


> ..... So why/how does EU law prevent us reducing or effectively removing CB?



Taxing or means-testing CB appears to be legally flawed because different families would get different CB payment amounts. 

There is nothing to stop a universal cut in CB, though, as this would apply to everyone equally. It could be political suicide for FF/Greens, akin to the over-70s medical card debacle.


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## thesimpsons (13 May 2009)

would much prefer to see schools books and uniforms free rather than GP.  Everyone has to go to school but because of our "free" education its expensive.   Maybe if the books were funded by the schools/govt, there'd be lot less new editions, new improved books, workbooks, etc.  we had to get the New Improved Atlas this year and a particular brand of pen and colouring pencils ......wtf.  the old ones wouldn't do - I tried to get away with different options but teacher through such a fit at my son I gave in, wasn't fair on my son.


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## csirl (14 May 2009)

alaskaonline said:


> I don't think any irish referendum can overwrite the EU law, am I right in saying this? As far as I am aware, the EU law stands above the irish law in this case.


 
Off the point a bit, but, while individual Irish laws may be subject to EU law, the Irish Constitution in its own right is superior to EU law as the Constitution is Sovereign whereas EU law is not. EU can ask us to hold referendum etc. - this has happens regularly... but they cannot override the Constitution.


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## huskerdu (14 May 2009)

As a general point, means testing CB would hopefully mean that it will be targetted at those on low incomes, and this should be a good thing. 
At a practical level, there will be mayhem when they try to do it. 

It will be easy to mean test married couples living together anf both raising own their children, but there are a lot of families in the state that do not fit this model. 

Currently, unmarried couples living together are not jointed assessed for tax, so will the mothers income only count, meaning a lot of mothers getting CB while their partners are on high incomes. 

What about a mother who is married for the second time and receives child maintenance payment from her first husband. Who exactly will be means tested

The mother and her first husband ?
The mother on her own ?
The mother and her second husband ?

I am using this as an illustration that means testing not result in the payment always being fair. 

I predict a lot of screaming calls to Joe Duffy from people who lost their CB and their neighbours with a 09 Merc keeping theirs.


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## Airtight (16 May 2009)

csirl said:


> Off the point a bit, but, while individual Irish laws may be subject to EU law, the Irish Constitution in its own right is superior to EU law as the Constitution is Sovereign whereas EU law is not. EU can ask us to hold referendum etc. - this has happens regularly... but they cannot override the Constitution.



How will this be effected if / when we vote in the Lisbon Treaty?


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## Watcher (30 May 2009)

My understanding is that the CB cannot be means tested as the payment is for the child and the child being means tested is not viable. As regards taxation, I believe this is the option being considered and discussed. Universally cutting the CB payment would be political suicide as mentioned earlier, but is the most practical method of reducing the cost.


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## clownie (31 May 2009)

thesimpsons said:


> would much prefer to see schools books and uniforms free rather than GP.  Everyone has to go to school but because of our "free" education its expensive.   Maybe if the books were funded by the schools/govt, there'd be lot less new editions, new improved books, workbooks, etc.  we had to get the New Improved Atlas this year and a particular brand of pen and colouring pencils ......wtf.  the old ones wouldn't do - I tried to get away with different options but teacher through such a fit at my son I gave in, wasn't fair on my son.




You might prefer free uniforms and school books but if you do refuse these it is not going to effect your kids health. If you kid does not have a uniform it is a problem with the school but 'not life threatening' which can be the case if you don't get medical attention for a child. Therefore free gp is much more important. I have 3 children and so far this year I have spent over €1200 on gp visits and every month our pharmacy bill is €100. School is only a minor expense compared to this!


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