# Council "take in charge" Vs Residents set up a management co themselves?



## Levy

Four years after the completion of our housing estate the developer wants to hand over the estate to the local authority. 

The local authority have indicated that they are happy to take it over. 

Some of the residents in the estate are resisting this and want us all to set up a management company to look after it ourselves. 

They say that handing it over could give the council the power to do anything from letting the common area to a circus to building a through road on the estate. are they just being paranoid? 

What are the pitfalls of handing over the estate to the council? 

Who would own the land if (a) the council took it over and (b) the residents set up a management company themselves?


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## AKA

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

Most estates would be happy to be taken over.  Estates with management companies are trying to have them dissolved to remove the administrative nightmare that it entails.

Note that while the council will take over the estate you could still hire an extra gardening service to have a better finish on the estate.  A voluntary residents association can collect the small fee per year to cover this.  You won't collect it from everyone but perhaps 50-80% of houses would contribute.

Not sure if a through road could be built through the estate - I would doubt it.  Have you looked at the local development plan?


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## Fr Dougal

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread but I have a query related to both posts. I live in an estate where it was a planning condition that a managment company be set up to take over the running of the estate. The developer set up the company and him and his partner are the directors. The estate is now finished and they are trying to hand it over to the residents, but first want to resign from the MC and hand it over to the directors from the residents.
When we bought our houses each owner paid £100 to the solictors and got one share in the MC, we have set up a residents association to take over the estate, there are a few people who are willing to take part in an informal committee or residents association, we have already arranged for a company to cut the grass and maintain the estate (as the developer no longer does) but nobody wants to become a director in a company. 
The developer still holds all the funds in the MC account and is willing to hand over control of the account to whoever the new directors are.
We were wondering is there any way we can get out of the requirement for a MC which is a limited company with directors etc by winding up the company and handing control to a more informal residents association which would be far easier to run without the legal obligations company directorship involves?
Any thoughts, suggestions or anything to be wary of?
Thanks.


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## AKA

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

We're wondering the same. The TIC complexity depends if there are any blocks of apartments in the estate. If not you may find it easier.

However, see first page of TIC policy of Waterford City Council - written earlier this year:

[broken link removed]

I'm wondering how they can decide not to take in charge estates where a management company was stipulated as part of the planning condition. 

This I feel would be a query for the Ombudsman.

For one of our management companies the developer directors want residents to become directors.  We are unwilling to do so until we find out how this would affect the estate as we want the estate to be TIC.  The estate is not finished to the standards that the council will require.  The 2 developer directors want €1500 per month each to remain on as directors - amounting to about €300 per unit extra each year.  I think we will have to go down the route of an Enforcement order.  I'm unsure how much of a bond the council has for the developer but I've heard from engineers they are well below the amount for remedial work required to have an estate TIC.

Its interesting to see that the developer directors value their time spent as directors as €1500 per month and they don't have to do much.  We as a residents committee spend more time monitoring the agent.  I can't see why ordinary residents in estates should have been put in a position of running management companies by local authorities.


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## AKA

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

See also Primetime - Jan 2006

[broken link removed]


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## Bubbly Scot

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*



AKA said:


> The 2 developer directors want €1500 per month each to remain on as directors - amounting to about €300 per unit extra each year. I think we will have to go down the route of an Enforcement order.


 
Have you got a copy of your Management Company's Mems and Arts? If you have, check out the position of the Directors. A vast majority of the time it will state that they recieve no payment for acting as Directors.  I'm sure you have but just to be sure you know that the Mems and Arts are the "rule book" by which your company operates (or should).


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## AKA

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*



Bubbly Scot said:


> Have you got a copy of your Management Company's Mems and Arts? If you have, check out the position of the Directors. A vast majority of the time it will state that they recieve no payment for acting as Directors.  I'm sure you have but just to be sure you know that the Mems and Arts are the &quot;rule book&quot; by which your company operates (or should).



 We have a copy of these for one  management company but not the other.  Would the owner have received this when the house was closed?  How can a copy be obtained - would it be held by an owner's solicitor?  We all have a copy of the Management Agents house rules - but I suspect these are not the same.  Thanks


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## Bubbly Scot

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*



AKA said:


> We have a copy of these for one management company but not the other. Would the owner have received this when the house was closed? How can a copy be obtained - would it be held by an owner's solicitor? We all have a copy of the Management Agents house rules - but I suspect these are not the same. Thanks


 
You should have got them when you bought your apartment. Otherwise go to the CRO, find your company listing and download from there. Will cost about 5 euro. The Agents house rules will have been drawn up using the Mems and Arts and "should" be able to provide them. I'd recommend the CRO route though if speeds an issue.


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## Butter

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

We find ourselves in a similiar situation in our estate.  The management company has over €50,000 sitting in an account.  Some talk of the directors (who are also directors of the developer company) handing over to the residents if we can get volunteers to act as directors.  We have been advised (and are still looking into this) not to take on the management company until such time as the estate has been taken in charge by the county council otherwise we could find ourselves liable for roads, paths, sewage etc within the estate.  We are all in privately owned houses with no apartments.  
We have a residents association who may start to collect fees to look after green spaces within the estate on a more informal basis, but at the moment it looks like taking on the directorship of the management company would be bad news.


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## Butter

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

For AKA- we have looked at this enforcement process as well.  It seems that the powers that a county council have to force a developer to finish an estate up to scratch are very limited and they don't ever seem in a hurry to use the powers that they do have.  I have been told that a county council cannot take an estate in charge by force until seven years have passed since the last unit was sold.  So yes the bond is held until the developer finishes the estate up to standard, but if they decide not to (because those costs are more than the bond held by the county council) then it will be a very long time until the council helps. I have looked into a lot of this stuff over the last few years and I still find it hard to believe the lack of legislation to help houseowners who have had the misfortune to buy in a development built by unprofessional builders (of which there seems to be hundreds).


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## AKA

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

Hi Marg - 

Did you get the information in relation to the 7 year delay in writing from the local authority?  Or a link to any documentation?

The developers we have are well known and responsible for a large number of estates.  It would be interesting to see if the sell any of the future planned phases if they don't finish what they've already built.

See:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=86572


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## Butter

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

I don't have it in writing at the moment but I will see if I can find anything where it is written down. I have it on good authority from the local county council but prehaps it is only applicable to my particular county council. I will try and find out on Monday and let you know.
Thanks for the link to Monaghan CC's Taking in Charge policy. It looks very comprehensive. I'll be checking on Monday if my own CC has something similiar.


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## Butter

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

Well it appears that my contact in the council is not as accurate in his information as I thought. More accurate information is that a grant of planning runs for five years. After that the council has seven years to enforce the planning conditions. If it goes beyond seven years then the council has no powers to force a developer to finish an estate.
You don't have to wait until the developer approaches the Local Authority to take a development in charge. If you hold a recorded vote in your development and the majority of residents want the development taken in charge then you put this in writing along with the results of the vote to your local council.
The council then approaches the developer about finishing the estate and handing it over. So from the latest information I got it seems that in our case the seven years started last year and we have until 2014 for the council to push the developer to finish the estate. I reckon whether this works in practice comes down to whether your council planning department is any good at enforcing planning conditions.
I have written to our local planning officer to find out exactly what they believe our management company is responsible for if we were to take it on.  Am getting plenty of conflicting information at the moment.


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## AKA

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

Marg,

Check out Waterford City Council's TIC policy which is more up to date, written this year - I see they have decided not to TIC estates where management companies were stipulated in the planning application.  Doubt they can legally enforce it.

[broken link removed]


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## AKA

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*



Bubbly Scot said:


> Have you got a copy of your Management Company's Mems and Arts? If you have, check out the position of the Directors. A vast majority of the time it will state that they recieve no payment for acting as Directors.  I'm sure you have but just to be sure you know that the Mems and Arts are the "rule book" by which your company operates (or should).



Looks like we are in a situation where the directors can get paid - we are going to go through the Mems and Arts again.


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## NorthDrum

*Re: Management Company - Housing Estate*

My understanding was that the councel is obliged to take control of the estate within 7 years.  Dont know if its differant from area to area!!!

Originally the management agents advised us that it would be "at least" 7 years before they could do so (cause they were trying to pressurise residents into signing as directors), but since I met my local TD he put me straight on a few issues (would recommend this to anybody looking for information on this, my TD was awsome and has agreed to come to a meeting with Builders and Management agents to help us out).

Just be wary. Like all professions there are good and bad management agents. Lack of clarity and information makes it difficult to know if you are dealing with honest agents but I would recommend anybody whose looking for more information to consult their local TD or councellor. If they are anything like mine, you will get more independent, informative,  impartial advice then you will off anybody else.


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## Butter

AKA,
Thanks for the link to Waterford County Council's TIC Policy.  I find it astonishing that this is allowed to happen though.  Depending on where and when you purchase a house in Waterford either the council is responsible for roads, services, lighting, open spaces or else private residents have to cough up what could be considerable costs.  Does this apply to only estates with apartment blocks or all housing estates that have a management company?  If people really knew what they were buying into I cannot believe anyone would do so.
My own situation is that the management company is responsible for open spaces only.  I have written to a senior planner in the county council here asking for written clarification on what the ramifications are of taking on the management company ourselves.  It will be interesting to see if he is willing to commit to anything on paper.


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