# Not giving Tenant back full deposit



## Mrs Dara (22 Sep 2013)

Our tenant has been in the property just under three years.  They gave notice on the 11th September that there were vacating the property on the 30th.  A few days later on the 16th, they said they were vacating that day, so essentially 5 days notice.  I don't really have an issue with the notice, (even though they are supposed to give a month) if the house had been given back to us in reasonable condition.  There were arrears on the rent of €500 so there is only €450 left from the deposit. 

When I went to meet the tenant to get keys, give the deposit back, I found the following problems:

Key lost for the five lever mortice lock on the front door.  I only received the key for the yale lock back.  Now I didn't keep a set of keys myself or I'm at fault there also.

Window in the bathroom is broken off it's hinges.  The frame is actually bent and the window doesn't close, so the house has never been secure or alarm put on, since the window was broken.

Sofa, which was brought new for this tenant has a huge rip down the side of it.  Complete ripped from the front to the back.

Four chairs are broken in the dining room, the seats have been broken off them.  This was also bought for this tenant 3 years ago.

Divan bed in the spare has been badly damaged.  It had drawers in the bottom of it and they have been kicked through.

Four wheelie bins in the back have been left full with no credit to empty them.

Kitchen presses and the fridge freezer have been left full of old food.  The smell is horrendous, in the kitchen.

General load of rubbish around the place, under the stairs if stuffed full of crap, the wardrobes have old duvets and other crap in them.  

The bathrooms don't look like they have ever been cleaned.  Toilet is absolutely filthy, shower is also in an awful state.  They were seriously filthy animals.

Funnily enough I have my council inspection this week and have decided to leave the property exactly as it is for the inspection.  

Any advice would be appreciated.  What can I deduct from the deposit, what would be considered wear and tear that I can't deduct.  I'll have to get a skip as they beds and the wheelie bins have to removed, chairs dumped and not sure if the sofa can be fixed.  

I spent alot of money doing the house up before they moved in and am so angry about the state of the place now.  

Thanks


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## shesells (22 Sep 2013)

For a start, the notice period is totally illegal, given how long they've been in the property the tenants should have given you 56 days notice in accordance with Part IV tenancy laws.

From what you've posted about the damage, I would be issuing them with a bill for the excess, there's no way you can remedy the damage for €450 so I absolutely wouldn't be returning any of the deposit. Please tell me the tenancy was PRTB registered?


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## facetious (22 Sep 2013)

shesells said:


> For a start, the notice period is totally illegal, given how long they've been in the property the tenants should have given you 56 days notice in accordance with Part IV tenancy laws.
> 
> From what you've posted about the damage, I would be issuing them with a bill for the excess, there's no way you can remedy the damage for €450 so I absolutely wouldn't be returning any of the deposit. Please tell me the tenancy was PRTB registered?


Assuming that it is a Part 4 tenancy and that the tenant is not breaking a fixed term lease - the OP hasn't stated the type of tenancy. 

While I agree entirely with shesells, if a landlord accepts a shorter notice period (as the OP seems to have done) then a case with the PRTB will not find for the landlord - the landlord will be deemed to have accepted the shorter notice period. 

Unfortunately, if you do not have the tenants' new address, it will be useless trying to make a claim with the PRTB as they require the tenants' new address in order to serve any legal notices. The PRTB do not have a "find an ex tenant service".

Take photos/video of the property in its current condition and retain the full deposit, in case the tenant tries to claim for the return of their deposit (in which case, the OP could make a counter claim for damage in excess of the value of the deposit.

It would appear to me, that the OP did not do an inspection from time to time which may have prevented some of the damage - Landlords, take note, do a period inspection of your property.


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## Mrs Dara (22 Sep 2013)

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I'm registered with the PRTB and I'm fully tax compliant.  

I'm not really bothered about the notice period and wouldn't pursue any rent.  I'm not sure where I stand with the lease either way as the tenant signed a 12 month lease when she moved in and then I didn't get anything further signed after that.  

I have been up in the house about 12 months ago and all looked fine, the bed was pushed against the wall so I didn't spot it.  The house looks reasonably clean at the time. The chairs were all in under the dining room table, so again didn't notice anything unusual.  There would have been no issue with the bins or rubbish either.  The tenant has literally left and just taken personal belongings.  The kitchen has been left full of fairly old food.

I presume I can deduct the cost of a skip, the cost of having to replace a bed, replace or repair chairs, repair the bathroom window.  I've a window repair guy calling tomorrow morning.  That will pretty much erode the €450, I've left but I just wanted to make sure, in those things, I am prefectly entitled to deduct those amounts from the deposit.  

Thanks for the replies.


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## shesells (22 Sep 2013)

After the 12 month lease expired, you are into Part IV territory (which you enter after 6 months but some landlord/tenants prefer a new fixed term contract rather than Part IV).

The key thing to remember is that you can't claim/withhold the deposit for your time. So you can't clean the place and claim for your time, however you can include hire of a cleaner. Same for painting etc


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## Knuttell (22 Sep 2013)

Been there,take the time stamped photos,lodge a complaint with the PRTB to cover the shortfall and roll up the sleeves and get cracking turning the place around in order to get it paying again.

Its unpleasant but that's the Landlords lot sometimes,you either have to deal with it or consider getting out of that line of bidness.

Its unlikely the PRTB will be much use but you've paid them so may as well preempt the disgusting pieces of humanity getting their spoke in first.


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## Knuttell (22 Sep 2013)

Oh and do not return one cent of the deposit.

Check under the bath as well.


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## Mrs Dara (22 Sep 2013)

Why, what could be under the bath.  Insert nervous smiley. 

We're cracking already.  Other half has been up there painting.  Skip ordered.  Photos taken of everything before we start the massive cleanup.  Got a lend of a steamer thingy.  

I put it up on daft last week before the tenant had moved out and had to take it down 24 hours later as my phone never stopped ringing, which is great.  Thankfully it is in an area where rental properties are in short supply at the moment.  

Thanks again for the replies.


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## Knuttell (23 Sep 2013)

Mrs Dara said:


> Why, what could be under the bath.  Insert nervous smiley.



Perhaps they were the forgetful strain of pond life that leaves behind €140k under the bath? 

Glad to hear you are moving up the gears at a good clip.You have to,no one else is going do it for you.

Pitch the price at under the current rent and pick from a decent pool of tenants,likley that you will get over the odds anyway if its a good area but no harm having a good pool to choose from initially. 

Turn it around,get employment refs only previous LL refs are useless,visit every 3 months til you are confident they are decent types then every 6 months.

Jobs a good'un.


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## Mrs Dara (23 Sep 2013)

lol, of course.  That's must be why the base of the beds were damaged.  They had to move the funds from there.  I'll be up there this morning, pulling the bath out.


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## Bronte (23 Sep 2013)

I would put in a claim with the PRTB immediately, people like your tenant might go after you for the return of the deposit. Keep all receipts for the PRTB.

You need to carefully vet your future tenants. And agree with them that you can inspect monthly. If they are not agreeable, then I'd be very wary of havign them as tenants.  You only need to visit diligently at the beginning, once you see how they are you can inspect on less frequent occasions.  Were the utilities in the tenant's name. Very odd they left food in the presses, that's not normal. The rest isn't normal either but some people have no respect for other people's property.

What's the council inspection?


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## Mrs Dara (23 Sep 2013)

I got a letter from SDCC that the house was being inspected under the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 1993 - 2009.

All the potential tenants would be rent allowance approved, I wouldn't have any potential tenants that are not on rent allowance.  It is hard to vet someone who hasn't worked.  The vast majority are single women with children.  I'd prefer this set up as the rent allowance payment is always on time.  

Yes, the utilities were in the tenants name.  She got a house on the council list which is why she moved out so fast.  

Why do you suggest making a claim to the PRTB, I don't really want to pursue the tenant for anything further as I think it's a waste of time.  I just don't want to give her the €450 back.  When she told me she was moving, I didn't enforce the notice period, I never mentioned it at all, as she had been on a council list for 10 years and I wasn't going to cause any problem with that.


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## Bronte (23 Sep 2013)

Mrs Dara said:


> Why do you suggest making a claim to the PRTB, I don't really want to pursue the tenant for anything further as I think it's a waste of time. .


 
I agree it's a waste of time, but just in case she's planning on taking you to the PRTB, on the deposit, it's better to be in first.  You can drop the case later as I agree it's a waste of time.  

You might think about increasing your deposit.  Even if your tenant's haven't worked, you could call around to where they currently live to see the situation.


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## mandelbrot (23 Sep 2013)

Bronte said:


> You might think about increasing your deposit. Even if your tenant's haven't worked, you could call around to where they currently live to see the situation.


 
Are you talking about prospective tenants? As someone who has always rented and been a model tenant, if a prospective landlord was snooping around me like that, I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.

If I'm going to be paying someone else's mortgage for them I don't want to feel like I've got them looking over my shoulder, before I've even arrived.


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## Mrs Dara (23 Sep 2013)

I had a full months deposit initially which was €950 but there are rent arrears of €500 which leaves me with just the €450.


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## Knuttell (23 Sep 2013)

mandelbrot said:


> If I'm going to be paying someone else's mortgage for them



The rent you pay is for the use of the property to live in,what the landlord does with his money is frankly none of your business.


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## AlbacoreA (23 Sep 2013)

Do what's suggested about. Lodge the case, take photos, document it all. 

Then move on. Factor the loss over the period of the rental, and accept as a business loss. Forget out it. The LL has little protection here. 

Whats the "council inspection" for? If its rented through RA, you could report the tenants that way. I doubt it will go anywhere though.


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## mandelbrot (23 Sep 2013)

Knuttell said:


> The rent you pay is for the use of the property to live in,what the landlord does with his money is frankly none of your business.



But of course, you're right, if they're not using the rent to pay a mortgage, I don't mind them being nosy and intrusive...


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## AlbacoreA (23 Sep 2013)

Once you're happy that's main thing.


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## wednesday (23 Sep 2013)

> There were arrears on the rent of €500 so there is only €450 left from the deposit.


Bit confused as to how the rent was €500 in arrears if your ex-tenant was getting rent allowance. It would grieve me to let the arrears slide given the deplorable state of the place.



> All the potential tenants would be rent allowance approved, I wouldn't have any potential tenants that are not on rent allowance. I'd prefer this set up as the rent allowance payment is always on time.
> 
> Yes, the utilities were in the tenants name. She got a house on the council list which is why she moved out so fast.


I'd be looking for that from the council and showing them pictures of how well she kept your property!


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## AlbacoreA (23 Sep 2013)

wednesday said:


> Bit confused as to how the rent was €500 in arrears if your ex-tenant was getting rent allowance....



Not all authorities pay the LL direct. Sometime a tenant doesn't pass it all over to the LL. The tenant can be late or behind with their portion of it.


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## emeralds (23 Sep 2013)

AlbacoreA said:


> Not all authorities pay the LL direct. Sometime a tenant doesn't pass it all over to the LL. The tenant can be late or behind with their portion of it.



I think that's mad. Surely RA should be paid in full to the landlord into a bank account.


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## wednesday (23 Sep 2013)

emeralds said:


> I think that's mad. Surely RA should be paid in full to the landlord into a bank account.



+1 Emeralds. The tenant could quite easily get the RA and then disappear leaving the landlord high and dry...which could be indicative of the OP problem


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## emeralds (23 Sep 2013)

I am sure there are 100's of landlords who have been left high and dry with no rent paid from RA tenants. Why is the system like this? Plus it also means that those landlords are much easier to keep track of from a Revenue point of view - as in the State will know how much has been paid to them and how much should be returned in income tax from that rental.


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## Guns N Roses (23 Sep 2013)

Mrs Dara said:


> I got a letter from SDCC that the house was being inspected under the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 1993 - 2009.


 
This means SDCC will be inspecting your property to ensure that it meets Minimum Standards for Rented Properties.

They will be looking at elements of the property such as general structural condition, ventilation, fire safety,sanitary fittings, heating facilities, refuse facilities, lighting etc.

Make sure you have provided a fire blanket in the kitchen and that the smoke alarms are mains wired or the 10 year self contained battery type (the old 9 volt battery type are now obselete) as these are common areas where properties fail to meet the Regulations.


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## AlbacoreA (23 Sep 2013)

emeralds said:


> I am sure there are 100's of landlords who have been left high and dry with no rent paid from RA tenants. Why is the system like this? Plus it also means that those landlords are much easier to keep track of from a Revenue point of view - as in the State will know how much has been paid to them and how much should be returned in income tax from that rental.



Who knows maybe  because theres no resoruces assigned to fix it, and/or the cost is more than the return. The state doesn't have to cover the losses of private LL providing the service. So thats a non issue for the State. 

Maybe its lack of will to fix it.


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## facetious (23 Sep 2013)

emeralds said:


> I am sure there are 100's of landlords who have been left high and dry with no rent paid from RA tenants. Why is the system like this? Plus it also means that those landlords are much easier to keep track of from a Revenue point of view - as in the State will know how much has been paid to them and how much should be returned in income tax from that rental.


The principle behind this is that it gives the tenant some responsibility in paying the rent.

However, even if the RA was paid directly to the landlord, if the tenant, for what ever reason has duped the Social welfare or fraudulently claimed, the social will ask the landlord for the return of all monies so obtained.


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## sam h (23 Sep 2013)

If you are making a claim to the PRTB, you should list it as due rent of €500 + whatever damages.  The claim will probably go nowhere and even if it does, you'll find it hard to collect.  But at least you will have your details on record (I actually emailed the details on a similar situation & said I was not pursuing at this time but to please keep a note with the Residence Account.  I got an email back just stating they have received and noted my email). 

It is worth getting onto the housing officer or community welfare officer also so you can advise that the money which was issued to the tenant was not used for it's intended purposed (i.e.- rent).  However, these days it is impossible to get to speak to the CWO directly!! If nothing else, it will going on the tenants file.

Spend about half an hour writing the above & then forget about it and move on as you will probably never see a penny.  But keep all the photos and receipts just in case they decide they are going to pursue you!


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## AlbacoreA (23 Sep 2013)

facetious said:


> The principle behind this is that it gives the tenant some responsibility in paying the rent.
> 
> However, even if the RA was paid directly to the landlord, if the tenant, for what ever reason has duped the Social welfare or fraudulently claimed, the social will ask the landlord for the return of all monies so obtained.



Can't get my head around that.


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