# Using Deceased Bank AC before probate



## luain (11 Dec 2013)

Hi,
We had a recent passing, I hope to do probate myself as properties etc. were transfered before death, only two bank accounts to resolve (Approx 60k). What is the situation if direct debits (TV phone etc) continue to leave the deceased accounts? I am not executor but I have full access in terms of PIN no's etc. to the accounts. Would the probate office look dimly if I were to shut some of these down?


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## STEINER (11 Dec 2013)

Cancel the subscriptions of the deceased with the TV & phone companies. The new owner(s) can arrange service in their name if they want.  I did this recently, but kept the ESB connection.  I informed the bank about the death and was allowed pay the undertaker's bill with funds of the deceased.  There won't be any other money leaving the account until the solicitor starts working on the legalities.

I presume you mean shut down the direct debits.


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## luain (11 Dec 2013)

Hi Steiner,
Thanks for reply, yes I do mean direct debits etc and if I could pay funeral expenses also that would be great. 

The thrust of my question is how much leeway do I have? As I want to do probate myself ( to save fees ) but don't want to compromise anything with the probate office.


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## 1dave123 (11 Dec 2013)

Hi Luain

I understand the subtly of your question.  I was in a similar situation myself when my father passed away in 2007.  My mother was the executor and sole beneficiary.  

In reality I did everything as my mother had not the slightest interest in fulfilling these duties and was less interested in the outcome. 

I opted to do probate direct via the probate office - the solicitor quoted a cost way above my expectation. 

I too had all my father PIN numbers and just went ahead with paying bills and transferring assets from his account  .................. way before probate

My mother was the sole beneficiary as per the will - with myself and my sister being contingent beneficiaries.

The probate office never asked any questions - that said my mother & sister attended the probate hearing. 

My mother inherited everything.


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## Padraigb (11 Dec 2013)

The banks should be informed of the death. They will then freeze the accounts.

The bank will normally release funds to pay funeral expenses (but not for a post-funeral meal, should you choose to host one). Other than that, the funds in the bank are unavailable until probate has been granted.

[I am sorry for your loss.]


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## Bronte (12 Dec 2013)

1dave123 said:


> The probate office never asked any questions  .


 
They proably didn't ask any questions because all liability for wrongdoing ultimately rests with the executor.


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## luain (13 Dec 2013)

Many thanks for your replies, it's a great help to hear real experiences.


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## mathepac (14 Dec 2013)

luain said:


> Hi,
> We had a recent passing, I hope to do probate myself as properties etc. were transfered before death, only two bank accounts to resolve (Approx 60k). What is the situation if direct debits (TV phone etc) continue to leave the deceased accounts? I am not executor but I have full access in terms of PIN no's etc. to the accounts. Would the probate office look dimly if I were to shut some of these down?


I'm puzzled. 

As you are not the executor my tuppence worth is that you have no authority to  intervene with the bank accounts. All the information you have needs to be turned over to the named executor IMHO.

With regard to probate and how it is conducted, that decision is exclusively the executor's. If he or she feels the need to seek professional assistance with the process, they are perfectly entitled to.  If anything goes wrong, the responsibility and potential liability is the executor's as pointed out above. IANAL and this is not legal advice.


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## pudds (14 Dec 2013)

I agree with mathepac, and what you should do now is contact the executor and seek his/her advice and permission first before doing anything.


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## luain (19 Dec 2013)

Re : pudds & mathepac
Thanks for your input, so far I've shut down direct debits with cable tv & phone etc. via the relative companies ( who have been surprisingly quick & courteous) but I've made no direct interventions with the bank accounts. While I accept the principle of what your saying the reality is like 1dave123 in that our executor doesn't care.


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## measures (19 Dec 2013)

luain said:


> Re : pudds & mathepac
> Thanks for your input, so far I've shut down direct debits with cable tv & phone etc. via the relative companies ( who have been surprisingly quick & courteous) but I've made no direct interventions with the bank accounts. While I accept the principle of what your saying the reality is like 1dave123 in that our executor doesn't care.



I'm in just about the same situation as you, but I made the mistake of telling the bank before the pensions had been paid into the account at the end of the month. (I had, of course, told the pension payers and the payments were only the balance due). 
Guess what? The bank prevented anything being lodge to the a/c as well as the DD's operating. This is such a nuisance, as the Probate Office tell me they are only dealing with June applications so far (so it could be next June before I get Grant of Probate, even though there are no complications). On the other hand, they forgot to stop the online viewing of the account, so I can see if anything untoward happens to the account. So, there will be a large cheque floating around for at least 6 months.
Yes, get the DD's stopped (and any Standing Orders), but I'd be inclined to not officially tell the bank until the money due in pensions is lodged. As for the Funeral bill, you send that to the bank and they get it paid (but at that stage, you will have told them, and will be dealing with their Executor Relations section won't you? )
P.S. Get the form CA24 competed ASAP and submitted to the Probate Office. It needs to be witnessed by a Commissioner for Oaths (usually a solicitor) but that should only cost €10 per signature witnessed (2 for every executor since you need 2 originals of CA24). You don't pay tax on the amounts on the CA24, the beneficiaries pay CAT on what they inherit, less permitted allowances, so there is no need to delay. there will be a long wait for an appointment to get the Grant of Probate.


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## punter (6 Apr 2014)

I am in a similar situation to the OP. My question is does the freezing of the accounts by the bank apply to each account balance or the combined total held by the bank ? There are two accounts in the bank (same branch) and the balances are 45,000 and 11,000. Freezing the latter would be a nightmare as all pensions and direct debits operate from this account. Both accounts are in joint names (deceased and surviving spouse). There is no requirement for probate.


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## STEINER (6 Apr 2014)

punter said:


> I am in a similar situation to the OP. My question is does the freezing of the accounts by the bank apply to each account balance or the combined total held by the bank ? There are two accounts in the bank (same branch) and the balances are 45,000 and 11,000. Freezing the latter would be a nightmare as all pensions and direct debits operate from this account. Both accounts are in joint names (deceased and surviving spouse). There is no requirement for probate.



Surely these accounts won't be frozen as they are joint accounts with one person alive.  Just on pension payments, I was told recently by someone that a pension provider stopped a deceased person's pension on checking the death notices!  Relative phoned to inform of death and was told, "oh yes we check the death notices".


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## punter (6 Apr 2014)

STEINER said:


> Surely these accounts won't be frozen as they are joint accounts with one person alive.  Just on pension payments, I was told recently by someone that a pension provider stopped a deceased person's pension on checking the death notices!  Relative phoned to inform of death and was told, "oh yes we check the death notices".



I have been told of a number of cases where the accounts were frozen even though they were joint accounts and the second name was the surviving spouse. It may be that the banks interpret this in different ways, or it may be that I haven't been told the full circumstances. Either way I want to know whether the 50,000 limit is strictly per account or the combined total of the accounts.

Regarding pensions, all pension providers (State and Private) have been notified and couldn't have been more helpful. All pension arrangements have been altered/transferred/shut-down very speedily and with a minimum of fuss. 

The bank are the only ones I am worried about.


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## Sue Ellen (6 Apr 2014)

punter said:


> I have been told of a number of cases where the accounts were frozen even though they were joint accounts and the second name was the surviving spouse. It may be that the banks interpret this in different ways, or it may be that I haven't been told the full circumstances.



Would it be a case the account was originally set up to require two signatures for everything rather than just one, especially for withdrawals.


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## Padraigb (6 Apr 2014)

I haven't encountered the particular circumstances that you mention, punter.

But I have learned, by dint of some annoying experiences, that branch officers in banks do not all know how to handle matters in death cases. And rather than go up the line for advice, some of them make decisions that are questionable. Be prepared to challenge decisions made in the bank, but carry the hope that you won't need to.


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## punter (6 Apr 2014)

Sue Ellen said:


> Would it be a case the account was originally set up to require two signatures for everything rather than just one, especially for withdrawals.



No. Both accounts are payable on either signature.


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## punter (6 Apr 2014)

Padraigb said:


> But I have learned, by dint of some annoying experiences, that branch officers in banks do not all know how to handle matters in death cases. And rather than go up the line for advice, some of them make decisions that are questionable. Be prepared to challenge decisions made in the bank, but carry the hope that you won't need to.



I have heard of a number of such cases and this is what is worrying me. The larger account isn't a big deal, and given that there is online access to it it may be sensible to transfer a substantial part of the balance to an account in another institution. The smaller account is the nightmare scenario. If that is frozen it will require all pensions to be diverted and all S/O and DD (of which there are a lot) to be moved which will be problematic and will leave the surviving spouse upset if letters about failed payments start to arrive.


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