# Why does it take at least 8 months to process a redundancy rebate?



## Brendan Burgess (2 Dec 2009)

I made claims online for redundancy rebates at the end of March.

The Department's online system is very badly designed and it would not give you confidence that you have completed the process correctly. 

I am a patient person. But now after 8 months, I thought I might ring up to see how the claim is getting on and when I can get my money.

I rang the Department of Enterprise to whom I had submitted my claim and, horror of horrors, they told me that NERA is processing the claims and they would put me through. I have  about NERA's delay in answering the phone. So I sat down and prepared for a long wait. I had to listen, again to a prerecorded message of no interest to me, for 5 minutes, before being told "Sorry, we are too busy to take your call at this time. Please try again later".

Why does it take 8 months to process routine claims? 
Why can they not tell callers upfront, that their call will not be taken, instead of leaving them wait for 5 minutes before telling them? 

Brendan


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## Graham_07 (2 Dec 2009)

This is not unique to NERS/DETE. Such tactics seem to be almost built into the system so that the caller eventually gets fed up of being sent in ever expanding loops or transfers and decides to hang up. That, coupled with phone attended hours which seem much less than an expected working day leave the likes of me ( who deals with govt depts daily) very frustrated.

The high volume of redundancy claims together with (presumably) only similar numbers of staff processing has led to long delays. I have an employer client whose claim went in in April and who is also still waiting. 

There also appears to be a preference (understandably) for processing employee claims where the employer was insolvent/unable to pay. Those claims by employees directly to DETE seem to get priority. That will have resulted in tail backs in the employer claims too I imagine.


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## RonanC (2 Dec 2009)

Taken from a PQ answered my Mary Coughlan on 7th July 

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Redundancy Payments. 
35. Deputy Damien English 

 

  asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment 

 

  the average time taken by her to pay out redundancy payments upon receipt of an application for support; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [27945/09]​ 
Deputy Mary Coughlan: 

 

  The considerable increase in the number of redundancy payment claims lodged with the redundancy payments section of my Department in the latter part of 2008, and to date in 2009, is unprecedented and is giving rise to delays in the processing of redundancy payments for individuals and companies within acceptable timeframes. The scale of the challenge is evident from the statistics for the first half of 2009, which indicate that the number of new claims lodged with my Department stands at 42,724, an increase of 160% over the equivalent period last year. Moreover, claims lodged at this half-year point now exceed the total number of claims received for the full year 2008, which, of itself, was an exceptional year by comparison with earlier years when claims received were of the order of 25,000 or less.​ 
I am acutely aware of the difficulties the inability to deliver an acceptable turnaround of redundancy rebate payments is giving rise to for both individual employees and the business community. Together, we have taken and continue to take all possible steps to address the issues. Measures already taken include the reassignment of 19.7 additional staff, full-time equivalents, from other areas of the Department to the redundancy payments area since early 2009 with ongoing review of trends and demands; the prioritisation of the Department’s overtime budget towards staff in redundancy payments section to tackle the backlog outside normal hours; the establishment of a special call handling facility to deal with the huge volume of telephone calls from people and businesses who are naturally concerned about their payments, using the facilities and co-operation of the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA; and the provision of better quality information on current processing times on the Department’s website. This enables the staff in the redundancy payments area to concentrate on and prioritise the processing of redundancy payment claims.


The average time it takes to process rebate applications from employers filed on-line is six months while claims submitted by post take seven months. In respect of lump sum payments paid directly to employees in instances where the employers are unable to pay the statutory redundancy entitlements, the current processing time, assuming all of the necessary supporting documentation is filed, is between six and eight weeks.


I agree with the Deputy that this is totally unacceptable and that is why I have streamlined a transfer of my human resources, and, to the disgruntlement of every member of my staff all of my overtime budget, to deal with this inordinate difficulty. I appreciate that it is not good enough and we will do all that we can to correct this as quickly as possible.



Deputy Damien English: 

 

  I thank the Minister for her full reply. I will not be as grouchy as usual because I got a good answer this time. Did the Minister say that the Minister of State sitting beside her had ‘cute’ eyes or ‘acute’ eyes or is keeping ‘a cute eye’ on something?​

Click to expand...

 
*


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## Graham_07 (2 Dec 2009)

Measures already taken include the reassignment of 19.7 additional staff.

I assume the problem is because it's the .7 of a staff member who answers the phone and they are not all there all of the time.


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## RonanC (2 Dec 2009)

In fairness, Redundancy Section has been a priority for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment for some time now with staff being transferred into it from other offices, there was an issue with office space but they made space available in another building so that they could tackle the situation. 

It is a disgrace though how long the wait for payments is and how it was left build up before anything was done about it.

AFAIK the phone system is being covered by NERA staff so that Redundancy staff can work on the backlog itself.


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Dec 2009)

The system is wrong. They are obviously making the checking of redundancy repayments too complicated. 

Also NERA does not understand how to hand the telephones. I have spent long enough corresponding with them on this. I give up.

Brendan


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## simplyjoe (2 Dec 2009)

Just to play devils advocate. Why is it deemed reasonable that the employees claim is dealt with quicker than the employer's claim. It seems to say 1) that the employees rights is greater than the employers or else 2) that the employee needs the money quicker than the employer. Definitely in most of the cases I have dealt point 2 does not apply. In many cases the employee walks away much better off than the employer. This is especially the case where the businesses have been wound up at the same time. IMO small business are poorly represented and their PR is poor. How well do you feel ISME have represented employers?


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## Graham_07 (2 Dec 2009)

I have had clients paying redundancy out of overdrafts or short term loans to ensure staff were paid their entitlements on date of cessation and still waiting 8 months later when that money would be very welcome.


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## papervalue (2 Dec 2009)

I have a employer who cant pay his employees and I lodged statement of affairs etc Mid July so employee can get money, Just last week they started to look at submission, around four months later. You would not want to be dependent on them.

An employer rebate claim in February 09 was paid out in November 09.

I think they should be a max 30 days turn around on any cliam.

I would suggest that as It is taking so long to get rebate, If it suits you can get it offset against paye/prsi, Vat and Corporation Tax for companies. The revenue will put a stop on any demand till offset is done.


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## Bronte (3 Dec 2009)

Is there any steps that can be taken to speed up the claim. Is there anyone to complain to about the delay in the handling of it? If not Joe Duffy? He does seem to get action done on things.

Don't let the system beat you, that's what they want.


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Dec 2009)

What are they checking or "processing"? 

Employers are self certifying for PAYE , VAT and all the other taxes. Most people now have a Tax Clearance Certificate? 

They could do a general rough look at it
1) Does the employer have a Tax Clearance Certificate? 
2) Is the claim less than 20% of the annual PAYE? 

If yes, pay it without further checks. 

Focus resources on checking non-compliant taxpayers.


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## Setanta12 (3 Dec 2009)

I physically dropped the forms in about a year ago for a client and got the rebate in little over a month.


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## Graham_07 (3 Dec 2009)

Setanta12 said:


> I physically dropped the forms in about a year ago for a client and got the rebate in little over a month.


 

A year ago this issue had not escalated to the stage it was at by March/April 09. You were lucky you were not a few months later.


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## NHG (3 Dec 2009)

I also rang yesterday (2 phone calls later and 25mins on hold) re a claim submitted in Mid June (originally done on-line in April when notice given as advised in order to speed the process up). Yesterday I was told that I/employer would have the rebate by the end or February 2010.

I was then told that I could have the refund amount off-set against our 2009 tax bill - Great telling me this now when the direct debits have been going out each month and are I have even been changing them each month as business was geting slower and slower and wages lower and lower and tax bill more or less paid in full!

If I had known that last June or even August could have adjusted my VAT and PAYE/PRSI direct debit to allow for same and my bank balance would be healthier at this stage and I would be paying less interest on my overdraft!


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## Mpsox (3 Dec 2009)

Imagine if an insurance company was telling people affected by flooding they'd get their payouts next July, Joe Duffys phone would be hopping !!!

This is happening for a number of reasons, crap leadership, badly managed processes and operations and and over complicated systems. 

If you are satisfied the claim meets all the criteria, could you not take the normal steps to get payment that you would from any debtor,? eg, apply to the Courts, at the very least, you'd get their attention


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## Graham_07 (3 Dec 2009)

NHG said:


> I was then told that I could have the refund amount off-set against our 2009 tax bill -
> 
> If I had known that last June or even August could have adjusted my VAT and PAYE/PRSI direct debit to allow for same and my bank balance would be healthier at this stage and I would be paying less interest on my overdraft!


 
This is not really working in practice, I had a client who owed VAT and was owed from DETE on redundancy. Revenue were putting pressure on and I mentioned the set-off. Revenue said get on to DETE. Applied to DETE for the set-off but they said had to get Revenue to contact DETE directly. By the time this was done, DETE had paid the redundancy rebate and client immediately wrote a cheque back to Revenue for the same amount. Another idea that might be good in principle but not in practice.


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## senni (3 Dec 2009)

Are they waiting for the budget ?   

Can they reduce the amount they are giving out on these claims ? 

I hope not but i often wonder as i have a staff member waiting months also and its just not fair...do they forget people have mortgages to Pay !

Make sure you know your claim has been recd..send an e mail to Nera to cover yourself in the event that ...they claim, they never recd your on line or manual application. Cover all aspects.


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## Bill Struth (3 Dec 2009)

There's also very little information made available to NERA staff on the issue of redundancy claims. They can check the status of the claim, when it was received etc. but not much more than that. I agree with RonanC, the department/government saw this coming a long time ago, but didn't act on it til it was already too late.


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## Setanta12 (3 Dec 2009)

Brendan, were you the subject of Chris Andrews' PQ today concerning redundancy payments ?


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## Brendan Burgess (3 Dec 2009)

No, but he is my local TD.

Have you a link to the PQ?


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## Complainer (4 Dec 2009)

Kildarestreet.com is great for finding PQs or anything on the Dail record. You can search by TD or by topic. You'll find the Chris Andrews PQ on this list;

http://www.kildarestreet.com/search/?s=redundancy+payment


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Dec 2009)

I sent this Email to Chris Andrews today. 

Hi Chris

Your PQ is being discussed on Askaboutmoney at 

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=127233

The Minister’s answer is unacceptable. 

Why are we allowed self-assess for much bigger numbers [for PAYE and VAT] and not for smaller numbers? 

The system should be changed so that claims are automatically approved below a certain amount or cumulative amount for customers

1)[FONT=&quot]       [/FONT]Who have a tax clearance certificate
2)[FONT=&quot]       [/FONT]Who are not in arrears on their monthly payments of PAYE, VAT etc 
3)[FONT=&quot]       [/FONT]And maybe, where the director gives a personal guarantee against fraud.

It would release a huge amount of public servants to help out in other areas. 



Brendan Burgess
www.askaboutmoney.com


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## Brendan Burgess (23 Dec 2009)

Wow! 

I got a cheque today for all the Redundancy refunds due, including one submitted at the end of November - just three weeks ago.

So it looks as if when they got around to processing the March one, they checked whatever other  ones were on file at that time. 

Brendan


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## Graham_07 (23 Dec 2009)

Good to hear Brendan, better get it into bank quick before they close !


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