# Ashes - will you be getting them



## DB74 (17 Feb 2010)

Just wondering how many people will be receiving ashes today as it seems to be a dying tradition.

I won't anyway


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## Yorrick (17 Feb 2010)

It is still a fairly popular practice. I don't have any problem with it. It all depends on ones belief and religion is a matter of personal freedom.

I don't think I will go to hell if I have the steak and chips tonight or on Good Friday.
Every religion has their own traditions and rituals.
Personal choice.
i


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## RMCF (17 Feb 2010)

No.

Haven't had them for many years now.

But will still be going off a few things to make a sacrifice.


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## Lex Foutish (17 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> Just wondering how many people will be receiving ashes today as it seems to be a dying tradition.
> 
> I won't anyway


 
I think the only ones who should be getting ashes today are the Pope and the Irish bishops who spent the last few days with him. I've never seen an organisation so detached from reality!


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## Firefly (17 Feb 2010)

Lex Foutish said:


> I think the only ones who should be getting ashes today are the Pope and the Irish bishops who spent the last few days with him. I've never seen an organisation so detached from reality!


 
Don't forget the sack cloth


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## Purple (17 Feb 2010)

I thought the thread was about Cricket when I saw the title... just shows how much of a heathen I have become!


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## Caveat (17 Feb 2010)

+1  

Is it actually meant to be a cross BTW? 

If so, very little effort put in I have to say based on the blobs and afterthoughts I usually see.

Seriously though, the whole lenten sacrifice thing still seems to be reasonably popular AFAIK even if the ashes aren't? Seems to be a fairly Irish thing too as I know a few pretty religious Poles/Italians etc who seem a little bemused by the concept.


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## truthseeker (17 Feb 2010)

Presumably only practising (or mix and match) catholics will get them?

As for me. That would be a No.


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## Caveat (17 Feb 2010)

truthseeker said:


> Presumably only practising (or mix and match) catholics will get them?


 
I think maybe members of the Greek orthodox church might get them too but within christianity I don't think anyone else does, no.



> Greek orthodox church


 
Edit: From googling, it seems they don't. Episcopalians do though apparently - maybe that's what I was thinking of. Sure dere all de same dem funny religions.


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## liaconn (17 Feb 2010)

A girl in work came in with ashes this morning and a couple of people were laughing about it when she went out of the room. I thought that was pathetic.


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## Caveat (17 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> I thought that was pathetic.


 
Yes, it is - but it does maybe show you how little of a culture there is of the practice these days.


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## MrMan (17 Feb 2010)

Seems to be a good few walking the streets in Limerick with ashes, i was a bit surprised by the age profile actually.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2010)

MrMan said:


> Seems to be a good few walking the streets in Limerick with ashes,


 Are they Angela's?


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## Purple (17 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> a girl in work came in with ashes this morning and a couple of people were laughing about it when she went out of the room. I thought that was pathetic.



+1


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## ney001 (17 Feb 2010)

Won't be getting ashes - never do but do always give up something for lent.  Mind you for me this isn't a religious sacrifice - it's just a good excuse to stop eating rubbish and crap for 40 days and I've always done it.  I always associate Lent with the trocaire box and so always give up eating rubbish and put the money into the box instead.


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## gipimann (17 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> I thought the thread was about Cricket when I saw the title... just shows how much of a heathen I have become!


 
I thought it had to do with cremation when I saw the title!!   Obviously another heathen here then...!


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> A girl in work came in with ashes this morning and a couple of people were laughing about it when she went out of the room. I thought that was pathetic.


 
Should they pity her instead?

Seriously, what's the difference between her coming in with ashes on her head and coming in after Christmas talking about what Santa got her? Both acts are based on believing a fairy tale...


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## liaconn (17 Feb 2010)

Maybe they should just let her practice her religion without sneering at her. She's just quietly getting on with her work, not asking them why they haven't gone to Mass and got ashes as well.


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> Maybe they should just let her practice her religion without sneering at her. She's just quietly getting on with her work, not asking them why they haven't gone to Mass and got ashes as well.


 
I agree she should be allowed live her life however she wants, but the reality is she is living her life according to a fantasy and to me this would suggest she has some issues.


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## liaconn (17 Feb 2010)

So every practising Catholic in the country has issues.   How about Jews, or Muslims or Protestants?


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## Purple (17 Feb 2010)

Speaking as a non-believer I agree with Liaconn


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## DB74 (17 Feb 2010)

I agree with Liaconn too

Don't see why people should see fit to slag off other people's religious beliefs


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## ney001 (17 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> I agree she should be allowed live her life however she wants, but the reality is she is living her life according to a fantasy and to me this would suggest she has some issues.



Wow - how easy life must be for you!


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## Birroc (17 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> So every practising Catholic in the country has issues.  How about Jews, or Muslims or Protestants?


 
UFC is wrong to say someone with ashes "has issues" but I would suggest they are deluded in the same way that I would include anyone in the the organised religions you mention as being deluded - Jews, or Muslims or Protestants. 

For me, organised religion is a social control mechanism and causes more harm than good. But people need to believe in something so I don't know what the solution is.


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## Caveat (17 Feb 2010)

Birroc said:


> For me, organised religion is a social control mechanism and causes more harm than good. But people need to believe in something so I don't know what the solution is.


 
OK, it's a different discussion but FWIW I agree with the first part to an extent. As for the second part, I honestly believe that for some - and possibly many - they don't want something else to believe in.

There are plenty of optimistic and positive approaches to life and everything in it, and loads of other secular ethos and belief systems whether casual or formal. BUT - and it's a big but...

...that would mean taking responsibility and a lot of people don't want that. The church will forgive, there is confession. There are plenty of nasty, malicious scumbags from 18 to 80 who go to mass every Sunday who might be forced to examine themselves if they didn't have that cover.


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## truthseeker (17 Feb 2010)

Speaking as someone who also believes that people who are in organised religions are deluded, I also agree with Liaconn. Let her at it.

People delude themselves everyday of the week about a variety of different things, that doesnt give anyone else the right to slag them off - and sniggering at the girl behind her back is just downright nasty and pathetic.


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## MrMan (17 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> Should they pity her instead?
> 
> Seriously, what's the difference between her coming in with ashes on her head and coming in after Christmas talking about what Santa got her? Both acts are based on believing a fairy tale...




They can pity her or slag, but try and have the balls to do it to her face.


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## truthseeker (17 Feb 2010)

MrMan said:


> They can pity her or slag, but try and have the balls to do it to her face.


 
Totally agree.

Sneering behind her back is the action of a coward.


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## MrMan (17 Feb 2010)

Birroc said:


> UFC is wrong to say someone with ashes "has issues" but I would suggest they are deluded in the same way that I would include anyone in the the organised religions you mention as being deluded - Jews, or Muslims or Protestants.
> 
> For me, organised religion is a social control mechanism and causes more harm than good. But people need to believe in something so I don't know what the solution is.



Most people that I know take from religion what they want, and there isn't the control there that there once was and that is for the good of everyone. People have believe systems and they can achieve inner peace when they need it much like those that go to shrinks (easier to spell), do yoga etc. Religion can't be black and white even though most of them attempt to be, and it all stems from the fact that the written word comes from men themselves so pinches of salt are often required.


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

I never said she shouldn't be allowed do it (I actually said the opposite) but choosing to delude yourself about life suggests you have issues.

I know it's harsh, but let's call a spade a spade.


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## liaconn (17 Feb 2010)

Well, if we're calling a spade a spade, you sound deeply intolerant of other people's beliefs. I don't believe in the same things that the Jews believe in, but I don't go around saying they all 'have issues'.


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## truthseeker (17 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> I never said she shouldn't be allowed do it (I actually said the opposite) but choosing to delude yourself about life suggests you have issues.
> 
> I know it's harsh, but let's call a spade a spade.


 
Why does deluding yourself mean you 'have issues'?
I doubt if you could find yourself a human who doesnt delude themselves in one way or another about something in life. It doesnt mean they 'have issues'. It just means they are human.


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> Well, if we're calling a spade a spade, you sound deeply intolerant of other people's beliefs. I don't believe in the same things that the Jews believe in, but I don't go around saying they all 'have issues'.


 
I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "tolerance". I have repeatedly said they should be allowed have these beliefs.

I'm just a realistic person who has no interest in being politically correct so I stand by my statement that people who live their life according to obvious make believe have issues. For starters, they can't accept the reality of life, e.g. This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and your dead granny aren't waiting for you when you die. 

Fantasy confused as reality should not be encouraged, although I am willing to tolerate it because so many people suffer from this delusion, and as seen here, it's a topic people are very sensitive about.


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## DB74 (17 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> For starters, they can't accept the reality of life, e.g. This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and your dead granny aren't waiting for you when you die.


 
How do you know?

I personally don't _believe_ it but still ...


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> How do you know?


 
How do you know you're looking at a computer screen?


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## TarfHead (17 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "tolerance".


 
Do you understand the meaning of the term '_gratuitiously condescending_' ?

Hundreds of millions of people draw comfort and spiritual sustenance from their faith and beliefs. For you to dismiss them as '_deluded .. have issues_' is offensive.


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## DB74 (17 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> How do you know you're looking at a computer screen?


 
I'm not - I'm on my phone.

Yet you _assume_ I am on a computer without actually being here. So how you know other things unless you are there experiencing them yourself?


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

TarfHead said:


> Hundreds of millions of people draw comfort and spiritual sustenance from their faith and beliefs. For you to dismiss them as '_deluded .. have issues_' is offensive.


 
Come on, just because many people do it doesn't make it right. That's a fairly basic concept.

Pointing out that religious people are deluding themselves (can you provide any proof to the contrary?) and that people who live their lives according to make believe have issues... that's just being realistic.




			
				DB74 said:
			
		

> I'm not - I'm on my phone.
> 
> Yet you _assume_ I am on a computer without actually being here. So how you know other things unless you are there experiencing them yourself?


 
Not sure what point you're trying to make there, but my own point was that you can use proof to make the reasonable assumption that you are looking at a computer screen. There is no proof _whatsoever_ that heaven exists, This post will be deleted if not edited immediately was the son of "God", etc. 

Just like there is no proof thetans are all around us. But no doubt it's ok to dismiss that fantasy because it's a scientology fantasy, even though scientology fantasies are just as fantasic as christian fantasies...


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## DB74 (17 Feb 2010)

Fair point but you do seem to be getting very defensive about scientology. Hmmmm.

"A cult is a religion with no political power" - Thomas Wolfe


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## Birroc (17 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> I'm not - I'm on my phone.
> 
> Yet you _assume_ I am on a computer without actually being here. So how you know other things unless you are there experiencing them yourself?


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## Birroc (17 Feb 2010)

TarfHead said:


> Do you understand the meaning of the term '_gratuitiously condescending_' ?
> 
> Hundreds of millions of people draw comfort and spiritual sustenance from their faith and beliefs. For you to dismiss them as '_deluded .. have issues_' is offensive.


 
I think you are mixing posts: I said they are "deluded" - UFC said they "have issues" which I dont particularly agree with mainly because I dont know what "having issues" actually means (even though I have loads of my own) 

And yes people do as you say "draw comfort and spiritual sustenance from their faith and beliefs" - but this does not make them any less deluded. And I think their organised religion cause much more harm than good.

If my neighbour came in and told me that he was the next messiah and that a spaceship was coming to take him (and his worshippers) away to Planet Utopia where nice things happen, I would consider him deluded - if he called his belief a religion and many people signed up to it, society would expect me to respect his beliefs under the banner of religion but I would still consider them all deluded (and perhaps having issues!).


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> Fair point but you do seem to be getting very defensive about scientology. Hmmmm.
> 
> "A cult is a religion with no political power" - Thomas Wolfe


 
No my point was people's opinions are inconsistent when it comes to fantasy -- I would be confident the majority of people here who are defending christian beliefs would dismiss scientology beliefs. That seems rather hypocritical.

Btw I'm not a scientologist. I guess you could say I'm an athiest.


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

Another thing I find funny about people defending religion is the fact that we know religion is the most destructive thing in the world (nothing kills more people than religious beliefs) yet most people would rather ignore this fact. 

However I know I'm mostly wasting my time saying all this because most people will believe whatever they think they're supposed to believe.


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## DB74 (17 Feb 2010)

AFAIK, no religion instructs its followers to kill people in their basic doctrines.

It is fundamentalists who interpret the basic teachings of their religion in a particular warped way who then cause death and destruction in the name of their religion.

The vast vast majority of religious people don't go around killing people.


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## Purple (17 Feb 2010)

Religion is fine but don't make it a way of life...


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## UFC (17 Feb 2010)

DB74 said:


> AFAIK, no religion instructs its followers to kill people in their basic doctrines.
> 
> It is fundamentalists who interpret the basic teachings of their religion in a particular warped way who then cause death and destruction in the name of their religion.
> 
> The vast vast majority of religious people don't go around killing people.


 
Sure, I agree most religious people don't kill people, but that doesn't change the fact that religion is responsible for the majority of wars throughout history, as well as many other problems such as women being forced to wear burkas, women being stoned because they were raped, people getting AIDS because it's wrong to wear a condom, etc.

A huge amount of problems would go away if society got real about religion and started talking about it honestly, i.e. it's a delusion and shouldn't be taken seriously.


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## haminka1 (17 Feb 2010)

Caveat said:


> I think maybe members of the Greek orthodox church might get them too but within christianity I don't think anyone else does, no.
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: From googling, it seems they don't. Episcopalians do though apparently - maybe that's what I was thinking of. Sure dere all de same dem funny religions.



Eastern Catholic Church /also called Greek Catholic Church/ members will


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## Vanilla (17 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> Sure, I agree most religious people don't kill people, but that doesn't change the fact that religion is responsible for the majority of wars throughout history.


 
I thought it was more that people have used religion as a reason to hide the real motivation, which was usually power/money.


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## Teatime (17 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> Speaking as a non-believer...


 
Maybe it's just me but this word 'non-believer' annoys me. Saying you are a non-believer to me implies that there is something to believe in but you choose not to. You are a non-believer in what exactly? Are you atheist, agnostic etc? I think the latter words are better in comparison to non-believer which means you are in the middle ground somehow, sitting on the fence...


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## Capt. Beaky (17 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> I thought the thread was about Cricket when I saw the title... just shows how much of a heathen I have become!


Howzat!


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## Capt. Beaky (17 Feb 2010)

If God didn't exist man would have invented him


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## ney001 (17 Feb 2010)

Capt. Beaky said:


> Howzat!



he's out!


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## Capt. Beaky (17 Feb 2010)

LBW, one presumes


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## DB74 (17 Feb 2010)

Stumped surely!

Or maybe Run Out (of town)


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## MOB (18 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> A huge amount of problems would go away if society got real about religion and started talking about it honestly, i.e. it's a delusion and shouldn't be taken seriously.



As far as I can see that - pretty much - is what seems to be happening in Ireland and a lot of Western Europe right now.  No doubt I can look forward to an old age free of the huge amount of problems with which I have up to now been plagued...........


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## liaconn (18 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> I don't think you understand the meaning of the word "tolerance". I have repeatedly said they should be allowed have these beliefs.
> 
> I'm just a realistic person who has no interest in being politically correct so I stand by my statement that people who live their life according to obvious make believe have issues. For starters, they can't accept the reality of life, e.g. This post will be deleted if not edited immediately and your dead granny aren't waiting for you when you die.
> 
> Fantasy confused as reality should not be encouraged, although I am willing to tolerate it because so many people suffer from this delusion, and as seen here, it's a topic people are very sensitive about.


 
Thank you, but I do understand what the word 'tolerance' means. To me, dismissing anyone who has a religious belief as 'having issues' or 'not accepting the reality of life' does not show much tolerance for people who have an opinion that differs from your's.


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## VOR (18 Feb 2010)

liaconn said:


> A girl in work came in with ashes this morning and a couple of people were laughing about it when she went out of the room. I thought that was pathetic.


 

And then there's Kay Burley's cringe-filled moment on Sky News:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLeJMoS-_Jo&feature=player_embedded#

And she was on such a good run after making Peter Andre cry.


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## MrMan (18 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> Another thing I find funny about people defending religion is the fact that we know religion is the most destructive thing in the world (nothing kills more people than religious beliefs) yet most people would rather ignore this fact.
> 
> However I know I'm mostly wasting my time saying all this because most people will believe whatever they think they're supposed to believe.



Its a silly argument and could open up 'at least religion protects the unborn' but lets not go there and take a breath and think. 
If we concentrate on our own country, and the religion in question, exactly how many deaths would you attribute to this religion?


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## MrMan (18 Feb 2010)

UFC said:


> Sure, I agree most religious people don't kill people, but that doesn't change the fact that religion is responsible for the majority of wars throughout history, as well as many other problems such as women being forced to wear burkas, women being stoned because they were raped, people getting AIDS because it's wrong to wear a condom, etc.
> 
> A huge amount of problems would go away if society got real about religion and started talking about it honestly, i.e. it's a delusion and shouldn't be taken seriously.



General statements don't help your argument, War is about power and control and the history books are filled with evidence to back this up. How many people get aids because they believe its wrong to wear condoms??


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## Caveat (18 Feb 2010)

haminka1 said:


> Eastern Catholic Church /also called Greek Catholic Church/ members will


 
Er... i.e. members of the catholic church?

So, obviously yes then.


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## Teatime (18 Feb 2010)

MrMan said:


> If we concentrate on our own country, and the religion in question, exactly how many deaths would you attribute to this religion?


 
The Troubles? 3000+


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## haminka1 (18 Feb 2010)

guys, why turn this discussion to a religion bashing session? it's not religion that's to blame for deaths and violence, it's the people - there are no violent or peaceful religions, it's a general human characteristics to turn nasty on people who don't agree with our opinions ...i believe that differences in religious beliefs and resulting violence are just a comfortable excuse for people not trying hard enough to achieve any kind of agreement with others because it's much comfortable to raise a fist ..


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## haminka1 (18 Feb 2010)

Caveat said:


> Er... i.e. members of the catholic church?
> 
> So, obviously yes then.



there are differences between the roman and the eastern catholic churches though both of them recognize pope as the big boss ...


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## Purple (19 Feb 2010)

haminka1 said:


> guys, why turn this discussion to a religion bashing session? it's not religion that's to blame for deaths and violence, it's the people - there are no violent or peaceful religions, it's a general human characteristics to turn nasty on people who don't agree with our opinions ...i believe that differences in religious beliefs and resulting violence are just a comfortable excuse for people not trying hard enough to achieve any kind of agreement with others because it's much comfortable to raise a fist ..



+1 Wars are fought for the control of resources. The fact that the groups fighting each other may have different religious views is incidental in almost every case.


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## Latrade (19 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> +1 Wars are fought for the control of resources. The fact that the groups fighting each other may have different religious views is incidental in almost every case.


 
Largely that's the case in modern times and pretty much at the root in all other times. Even as an atheist I don't buy the "religion = war" argument. You only have to look at histories most notorious Atheists/Agnostics: Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin. Ordinary decent people I'm sure.

Having said that I'd largely agree with UFC. People have a right to have an opinion and/or belief, but I have the right to question that if and when it is given protection in law and society above and beyond other beliefs.

Religion doesn't have the copyright on being an ethical, moral human.

I suppose coming back to the OP, i think it's more ignorance of the ash than anything else or anything too malicious. It isn't that common these days and even still (having no idea of what day it is) it still takes a couple of seconds for me not to think "do they know they've a big smudge of dirt in their heads?" Plus it's a ritual that has fallen out of fashion because you don't get chocolate or presents on Ash Wednesday, so it's one of those rubbish ones that only aul ones do.

Even so, maybe they did find it funny or strange, maybe they should have had a bit more sensitivity. But where do we draw the line in tollerance and sensitivity? Would we get the same thread if it were a couple of office workers mocking a Scientologist's ritual?


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## Chocks away (19 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> +1 Wars are fought for the control of resources. The fact that the groups fighting each other may have different religious views is incidental in almost every case.


I agree with Purple on this. Once these wars/flare ups are looked at in a deeper sense you see the true reason.


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## Caveat (19 Feb 2010)

haminka1 said:


> there are differences between the roman and the eastern catholic churches though both of them recognize pope as the big boss ...


 
I realise that. The statement made was that "practising catholics receive ashes".

Eastern/Greek catholic church members are obviously catholics.


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## MrMan (19 Feb 2010)

Teatime said:


> The Troubles? 3000+



Would you really attribute this to religion, or were power, money, ignorance and the ability for scum to revel in lawlessness more at the heart of the 'troubles'.


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