# 2016 Commemoration - how was it for you?



## Betsy Og (28 Mar 2016)

So much going on everywhere its hard to keep track. I'm looking forward to buying the Christmas DVD of the highlights. Much of it was all fine and well, a bit of a re-run of St Patrick's Day parade in parts I thought.

As usual there are all sorts of side arguments of "What would they make of the country now?", and every shade of opinion wanting the grab the endorsement of the long dead -  tbh I'm not too bothered what they would think. They were people of their time, we are of ours. I think we should only consider events in their context of 100 years ago - we shouldn't be dictated to by the past.

I spent Sunday night watching the Queen of Ireland and the programme following it I am Traveller - both highly relevant to the Ireland of today and fittingly scheduled in my opinion. But oh dear, but what would the men of '16 have thought of it....


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## Firefly (29 Mar 2016)

I thought the coverage by RTE was excellent - they really went all in. In contrast we flicked over to TV3 Sunday night where we were entertained by a re-run of Brendan Grace making racial slurs against the Japanese - classy stuff.

There's part of me relieved that it all passed without any trouble. A bigger part of me is relieved it is all over....the run up to this was akin to the maturity of the SSIAs!


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## thedaddyman (29 Mar 2016)

I was at the Cork commemorations yesterday for family reasons and found them very dignified. What was remarkable to me over the weekend was that it didn't seem to degenerate into a normal Irish celebration involving massive amounts of drink. I loved the way the schools got involved and I learnt far more from what my own kids were doing they did then I ever did in school back in the 70s and 80s. I also loved the fact that to me, the flag was "recovered" from the Shinners.

I was back in time for the concert on RTE last night, I thought it was excellent but will never look at Kermit the Frog in the same light again. And if you didn't see it, just google "it's not easy being green" and Imelda May and see what comes up.

Full marks to RTE and overall, their coverage was something that a commercial station would or could never do and perhaps people should remember that when it comes to giving out about the licence fee.


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## Purple (29 Mar 2016)

Excellent job done by all involved. Michael D was very good. RTE's coverage was superb.


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## Jazz01 (29 Mar 2016)

thedaddyman said:


> I loved the way the schools got involved


Exactly - I thought that this was a huge positive - local school (primary) kids have been talking about it, looking for more information about it all - which shows that it has captured their imagination. It was fantastic to see the kids doing projects / talks / etc about this at the local schools.


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## Duke of Marmalade (29 Mar 2016)

Imagine the show we would have put on if the Rising had been a success


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## thedaddyman (29 Mar 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Imagine the show we would have put on if the Rising had been a success



wait until Dec 6th 2021- 100 years after the Treaty was signed.


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## Betsy Og (29 Mar 2016)

Was just going to say, there's a few better days ahead .....and then a few awful tragic ones. As Brad Pitt might say in a dodgy Belfast accent - "this is an Irish story, not an American one". Saw the last 20 minutes of the concert last night, thought it was very good, reminded me a bit of the concert they had in the Albert Hall a couple of years back when everyone was over to meet Banrion Eilis Uimhir a Do.


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## Purple (29 Mar 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Imagine the show we would have put on if the Rising had been a success


It was; it led to our freedom.


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## Duke of Marmalade (29 Mar 2016)

And to think this was just a rehearsal as the actual anniversary is 24th April


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## Duke of Marmalade (29 Mar 2016)

Purple said:


> It was; it led to our freedom.


Yes indeed, it is frightening to think that we might be still in chains like the people of Scotland or Wales or indeed those we deserted in the north of our country.


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## Firefly (29 Mar 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> *Yes indeed*, it is frightening to think that we might be still in chains like the people of Scotland or Wales or indeed those we deserted in the north of our country.



Go on, admit it, you said that with a Michael D accent didn't you?!


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## Firefly (29 Mar 2016)

thedaddyman said:


> I also loved the fact that to me, the flag was "recovered" from the Shinners.



We were in the West of Ireland for Easter and it was lovely driving back yesterday afternoon and seeing lots of Tricolours out in people's gardens. Great to have it back and hopefully it will become acceptable now to display this publicly.


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## Betsy Og (29 Mar 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Yes indeed, it is frightening to think that we might be still in chains like the people of Scotland or Wales or indeed those we deserted in the north of our country.



Careful now, next you'll be with Kevin Myers telling us we should have had more patience with those jolly decent chaps.


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## Purple (29 Mar 2016)

Betsy Og said:


> Careful now, next you'll be with Kevin Myers telling us we should have had more patience with those jolly decent chaps.


Myres I can just about take. Ruth Dudley Edwards on the other hand...


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## Duke of Marmalade (29 Mar 2016)

I enjoy reading the contemporary newspapers.  Can anybody explain why the Indo and Sindo of those days refer to O'Connell street whilst the Irish Times refers to Sackville street.  It was not renamed until 1923.  Was it known colloquially as O'Connell street long before the official name change?


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## Marion (29 Mar 2016)

I attended the A Nation's Voice concert in Collins Barracks on Easter Sunday. Great performance by the choirs (1000 people) and the RTE Symphony Orchestra. Also a Fabulous narration of One Hundred Years a Nation by the poet himself, Paul Muldoon. A truly epic event. This is available on RTE Player. 

I also loved the start of the military parade beforehand. (I had to leave early to go to the concert). I watched the Commemorative service on a screen in Dame Street beside Dublin Castle. Great atmosphere. The Crowds on the street joined in the singing of O Danny Boy and the National Anthem with gusto. Brilliant!

A truly Memorable day.

I also loved the Centenary concert on RTE last night. 

Looking forward to 24 April for the Laochra performance at Croke Park- €25 adult fee. 

3,500 performers to take part. 

Marion


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## Purple (30 Mar 2016)

Marion said:


> The Crowds on the street joined in the *singing of O Danny Boy* and the National Anthem with gusto.


Great to see we can all sing along with a song written by an English man!


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## Betsy Og (30 Mar 2016)

Purple said:


> Great to see we can all sing along with a song written by an English man!



Ah no, I had decided that all english people were terrible so and sos, now you throw this into the mix, my worldview is shattered !! 

I wonder do the english feel they get all the bad rep?, ok we hear of the Sherwood Foresters (very fresh recruits by the sounds of it), but presumably there were Scots and Welsh soldiers, probably even Irish soldiers with the British Army in Ireland (since there were thousands on the Somme). Wasnt Lloyd George a Welshman. Celtic solidarity huh?


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## Sophrosyne (30 Mar 2016)

I watched Centenary on Monday night and again last night. I thought it was excellent from beginning to end.


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## Purple (30 Mar 2016)

Betsy Og said:


> Ah no, I had decided that all english people were terrible so and sos, now you throw this into the mix, my worldview is shattered !!
> 
> I wonder do the english feel they get all the bad rep?, ok we hear of the Sherwood Foresters (very fresh recruits by the sounds of it), but presumably there were Scots and Welsh soldiers, probably even Irish soldiers with the British Army in Ireland (since there were thousands on the Somme). Wasnt Lloyd George a Welshman. Celtic solidarity huh?


On the topic of the Sherwood Foresters, I think there should be a memorial of some type to them on Mount Street. They were as much victims of the Rising as anyone else and a testament to the incompetence and heartlessness of General Low.


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## thedaddyman (30 Mar 2016)

Betsy Og said:


> I wonder do the english feel they get all the bad rep?, ok we hear of the Sherwood Foresters (very fresh recruits by the sounds of it), but presumably there were Scots and Welsh soldiers, probably even Irish soldiers with the British Army in Ireland (since there were thousands on the Somme). Wasnt Lloyd George a Welshman. Celtic solidarity huh?



I don't think the English even know they get a bad rep as their lack of knowledge of the world outside their own little island can be appalling. I lived there in the 90s and I lost count how many times I was asked "was that where the bombs go off" when I told people what part of Ireland I'm from. I'm from Cork . Back home now but I'd say at least 3 or 4 times a year I have to send an email to someone telling them I can't implement a policy as their legislation doesn't apply over here, normally the response I get is something along the lines of "really??" An English friend of mine freely admits he didn't get Ireland being different until he was over on a business trip, had an afternoon off and went to Kilmainham prison.


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## thedaddyman (30 Mar 2016)

Purple said:


> On the topic of the Sherwood Foresters, I think there should be a memorial of some type to them on Mount Street. They were as much victims of the Rising as anyone else and a testament to the incompetence and heartlessness of General Low.



I can see the current Lord Mayoress of Dublin being first in the queue to unveil that !!


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## Gerry Canning (30 Mar 2016)

Sophrosyne said:


> I watched Centenary on Monday night and again last night. I thought it was excellent from beginning to end.


...............
Was very pleasantly surprised at the (un-gingoism )that was presented.
From my view (narrow maybe!) I had thought it would have been a flag waving rehash of half -truths with a lot of back slapping .
It turned out as a more nuanced  Commentary of times past, linked to a new understanding of where we are.

We accept we only now have 3 and two thirds of the Green Fields .A project still in progress.
We accept that the (cult) of violent Republicanism is of another era.
We accept that 6 counties voted British/Irish.  .
We accept difference.
We accept that up to now our efforts at Nationhood was (well) mixed?eg immigration; today, homes.
We know we can and will do better.

In short ; an honest appraisal.


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## Gerry Canning (30 Mar 2016)

thedaddyman.

You reckoned an Englishman couldn,t fathom our difference from them. Understandable enough.

A few times (and once was from a Cork dealer )people down south of Donegal; namely everywhere, asked me for the Northern Irish Code for phone calls ! to me.


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## Duke of Marmalade (30 Mar 2016)

Look, I'll have to admit that the rising was a partial success.  It gained us about 70 years freedom from contraception, divorce, dodgy books and films and made immoral women slaves.  But Anglo American cultural imperialism has swept all these gains away. Was a mere 70 years of Holy Catholic Bliss really worth the blood sacrifice?


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## Marion (30 Mar 2016)

From a ruined nest
The starling builds afresh
The Hawthorn, The Oak, The Ash
Will flourish again
...

Let's engineer a new civility
... Our main cause is to rejoice 100 years a nation.

(Paul Muldoon - one Hundred Years a Nation)

Marion


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## Purple (31 Mar 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Look, I'll have to admit that the rising was a partial success.  It gained us about 70 years freedom from contraception, divorce, dodgy books and films and made immoral women slaves.  But Anglo American cultural imperialism has swept all these gains away. Was a mere 70 years of Holy Catholic Bliss really worth the blood sacrifice?


At least it didn't make us cynical...


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## Purple (31 Mar 2016)

thedaddyman said:


> I don't think the English even know they get a bad rep as their lack of knowledge of the world outside their own little island can be appalling. I lived there in the 90s and I lost count how many times I was asked "was that where the bombs go off" when I told people what part of Ireland I'm from. I'm from Cork . Back home now but I'd say at least 3 or 4 times a year I have to send an email to someone telling them I can't implement a policy as their legislation doesn't apply over here, normally the response I get is something along the lines of "really??" An English friend of mine freely admits he didn't get Ireland being different until he was over on a business trip, had an afternoon off and went to Kilmainham prison.


Their knowledge of what's outside their own little island isn't bad. We just have to realise we are tiny and utterly irrelevant on the world stage. Why would an English person know much about us any more that we would know about Faroe Islands.


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## Betsy Og (31 Mar 2016)

Gerry Canning said:


> ...............
> 
> We accept we only now have 3 and two thirds of the Green Fields .A project still in progress.
> We accept that 6 counties voted British/Irish.  .



Just curious, when you say 3 2/3 of the 4, are you referring to 4 of the 6 counties being majority green (all bar Antrim and Down I take it??). 

When did the 6 counties vote?, sure barring a few minor adjustments (bet they wish they floated off a chunk of South Armagh...) didnt the Boundary Commission leave the border more or less as it was, and I dont remember reading that there was a vote on it (maybe I'm wrong). Unless you're referring to the GFA/Belfast Agreement?

Tbh I dont think that talk of a united Ireland interests to many people beyond SF. It could get hugely interesting if UK votes to leave EU, Scotland re-runs its independence referendum as they have said they will (& they seem to want to be in the EU). The 6 counties could start to look very isolated. But then, as a "Free Stater", could I really be doing with the hassle??


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## Duke of Marmalade (31 Mar 2016)

Fair play to Michael D.  He is boycotting the Belfast City Council centenary dinner coz the unionists want nothing to do with it.


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## Purple (4 Apr 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Look, I'll have to admit that the rising was a partial success.  It gained us about 70 years freedom from contraception, divorce, dodgy books and films and made immoral women slaves.  But Anglo American cultural imperialism has swept all these gains away. Was a mere 70 years of Holy Catholic Bliss really worth the blood sacrifice?



OK, a serious reply to your post.

In 1900 Dublin was the second city of the biggest, richest and most powerful empire in the world.

It also had the worst slums and the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world. This was simply a symptom of a country which was run for the exclusive benefit of the top 50’000 or so people who constituted the Anglo-Irish ascendency. In that we were alike any other colony of the Empire. Ireland didn’t thrive and would never thrive under the rule of Britain. For all our faults as a nation we are far better off today than we would ever have been if we had remained a glorified British colony. We have had to grow up as a nation and each succeeding generation has done a better job than the last. I think and expect that the generation which is currently in their early 20’s will learn from the greed and stupidity of their parent and grandparents and finally bring turn this country into what it can be.


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## Firefly (4 Apr 2016)

Purple said:


> I think and expect that the generation which is currently in their early 20’s will learn from the greed and stupidity of their parent and grandparents and finally bring turn this country into what it can be.



Unfortunately, I wouldn't bet on it - it's not a dig on the youth of today, more...plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


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## Duke of Marmalade (4 Apr 2016)

Purple said:


> For all our faults as a nation we are far better off today than we would ever have been if we had remained a glorified British colony.


Possibly so, but it is highly unlikely that we would be still glorified British colony.  Let us look at some comparatives of the time.  Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Scotland and Wales (I leave out the underdeveloped members of the then British Empire, and not through racist reasons).  The first three of these gained full independence (without partition) by completely peaceful means and rank amongst the highest in the World in HDI.  We too could have trodden that route if we had kept our protestant brethren on board which would have put a brake on the suffocation of the De Valera style RC theocracy that the Rising ultimately bequeathed.  Possibly we might have finished up as Scotland or Wales who, these days, remain "colonies" of their own choice.  So I don't buy the "far better off" counterfactual, sorry.


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## Gerry Canning (4 Apr 2016)

Betsy Og,

1. I was talking of 9 Ulster Counties ie we in Roi have 3 of them , hence we have 3 and one third provinces.
( I suppose I was asking why commemorate a job unfinished)
2. I was referring to Good FRiday Agreement.
3. The wish for an Ireland as one unit, is a logical step for our small island.
eg. If we are one island, issues such as Brexit wouldn,t be so awkward,.
Placing politics aside , umpteen reports have shown ongoing benefits to having Ireland as one (trading) unit.

Purple .
Tend to disagree (each succeeding generation has done a better job than the last)  
From my  reading, Ireland was unique in having a decreasing population up to the 1960,s. 
WE turned leaving our fair isle, into a national norm !
(All my uncles/aunts left at one time or another,
3 of my brothers left .)
I observe that our new generation, neither have, nor accept the baggage of previous generations, I am optimistic for them.


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## horusd (4 Apr 2016)

Mise Eire by that young wan knocked the ball outta de pitch - and, perhaps we now have a long overdue replacement to  the worn-out Riverdance.  Well, as long as no one translates it into English; particularly the lines:
"Great my shame: My own children who sold their mother."


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## cremeegg (5 Apr 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Possibly so, but it is highly unlikely that we would be still glorified British colony.  Let us look at some comparatives of the time.  Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Scotland and Wales (I leave out the underdeveloped members of the then British Empire, and not through racist reasons).  The first three of these gained full independence (without partition) by completely peaceful means and rank amongst the highest in the World in HDI.  We too could have trodden that route if we had kept our protestant brethren on board which would have put a brake on the suffocation of the De Valera style RC theocracy that the Rising ultimately bequeathed.  Possibly we might have finished up as Scotland or Wales who, these days, remain "colonies" of their own choice.  So I don't buy the "far better off" counterfactual, sorry.



I'm not so sure. I think our geographical proximity to Britain would make our situation very different from the Canada, Australia, New Zealand experience.

We also had at least three national identities in Ireland, the Unionists, the Anglo-Irish and what I like to think of as the people who base their sense of identity fully in Ireland. That is much less the case in Scotland and hardly exists in Wales.

How the church hijacked the new state is something I would like to better understand.


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## Betsy Og (5 Apr 2016)

Canada, Australia, NZ had the advantage of being new. Apart from the convicts in Australia, most of the new settlers were probably 'on message' in terms of the empire providing support to them, and werent they getting free land, why would they grumble about the empire? Of course a few generations on and the historical ties seemed weak (especially given how remote from the motherland), but there was never any great reason to hate the empire (not like those unruly yankees not wanting to pay tax and dumping tea !!).

Whereas in Ireland it was our land ever before the Saxon invasion ........(I could rant on, but you get the point). So there was definitely the sense of a disenfranchised people, how could the Irish peasant be happy to think they were fattening up Downton Abbey types. I think the severe strain of religion practised in Scotland and later Norn Iron was another distinguishing feature. We had assimilated celts, vikings, normans but now we had a group hell bent on segregation & being united with "the mainland" for that purpose. So I think Ireland doesnt compare well with the new colonies, & partition was/is all but inevitable.


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## Gerry Canning (6 Apr 2016)

Point taken Betsy Og ,that partition was nearly inevitable, so violent uprising for a United ALL Ireland was a false premise and spawned warped justification for Troubles..
Still a shame to have such a small place split.


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## Betsy Og (6 Apr 2016)

Not sure United Ireland was a major factor in the troubles, or at least it was well down the list of:

Civil rights denial
Rampant sectarianism, fuelled by religious fervour
Atrocious government/army response to civil rights.
I think the United Ireland thing was just wrapping a tricolour around it (agreeing with your 'warped justification' point) and/or a view that to long term guarantee equality and fair play you needed a united Ireland - post GFA I hope that isnt still the view, though I gather the sectarianism on the ground is more or less as bad as ever.


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## Duke of Marmalade (6 Apr 2016)

Betsy Og said:


> Not sure United Ireland was a major factor in the troubles, or at least it was well down the list of:
> 
> Civil rights denial
> Rampant sectarianism, fuelled by religious fervour
> ...


Sorry Betsy, but the 1973 Sunningdale Agreement delivered everything that eventually SF/IRA signed up to in 1998.  But back in 1973 it was way short of their objectives which were for an all Ireland socialist republic.  The bulk of the deaths in NI were as a pursuit of a 32 county North Korea rather than any equality agenda - which had effectively been addressed by Sunningdale.  The United Ireland motif and its threat of a catholic theocracy have been the elephant in the room for the last 100 years.  I accept that there is a difference between Ireland and the protestant "colonies" of 1916 but I was addressing _Purple's_ rather ludicrous proposition that we are "far better off today" than if we had not had the Rising.  I suspect that _Purple_, for all his atheistic machismo, is a closet RC


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## Sophrosyne (6 Apr 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> The bulk of the deaths in NI were as a pursuit of a 32 county North Korea rather than any equality agenda -



???


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## Betsy Og (6 Apr 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Sorry Betsy, but the 1973 Sunningdale Agreement delivered everything that eventually SF/IRA signed up to in 1998.  But back in 1973 it was way short of their objectives which were for an all Ireland socialist republic.



Yes, the GF Agreement famously being referred to as Sunningdale for slow learners . But wasn't it the Ulster Workers strike that broke it?, not saying SF/IRA would have necessarily have gone for it, but the blame wasnt mainly laid at their door for it failing. Plus by that stage you were well into the "My Seamus/Declan/Paddy didn't die for this....", so maybe Sunningdale came too soon at/after the height of the troubles. While of course every death was tragic and unnecessary, I'd agree that the 'long war' (pursuit of 32 county North Korea) was a totally pointless waste of life.


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## Duke of Marmalade (6 Apr 2016)

_Betsy_, you have a good grasp of this, and I don't mean that patronisingly.  Yes, ostensibly the loyalists brought down Sunningdale but that was because of its utter failure to appease the IRA, the next step in appeasement as far as the protestants of Ulster were concerned was North Korea, catholic style.   The IRA intensified their vile campaign after Sunningdale as they saw that it completely threatened them, they had absolutely no electoral mandate in those days, they were oblivion in this fair constitutional settlement.

Getting back on topic, I think the violent legacy of 1916 has a lot to do with the Northern troubles. With hindsight and now seeing the complete disintegration of the British Empire surely a peaceful approach to independence would have been much less painful and possibly even have avoided partition.


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## Purple (7 Apr 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I accept that there is a difference between Ireland and the protestant "colonies" of 1916 but I was addressing _Purple's_ rather ludicrous proposition that we are "far better off today" than if we had not had the Rising. I suspect that _Purple_, for all his atheistic machismo, is a closet RC



Britain is run for the benefit of the south of England as that’s the engine of the British economy.

By any economic measure we are better off than Wales or the North of England and, despite all their oil, we are better off than Scotland.

All that aside, we are free. That’s what matters most.

And yes, I'm a closet RC, as well as believing in pixies and the Easter Bunny 




Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Betsy_, you have a good grasp of this, and I don't mean that patronisingly. Yes, ostensibly the loyalists brought down Sunningdale but that was because of its utter failure to appease the IRA, the next step in appeasement as far as the protestants of Ulster were concerned was North Korea, catholic style. The IRA intensified their vile campaign after Sunningdale as they saw that it completely threatened them, they had absolutely no electoral mandate in those days, they were oblivion in this fair constitutional settlement.



Nobody here will mount any defence of the IRA but they are not Ireland or our vision of what Ireland should be. The same was the case in the 70’s.




Duke of Marmalade said:


> Getting back on topic, I think the violent legacy of 1916 has a lot to do with the Northern troubles. With hindsight and now seeing the complete disintegration of the British Empire surely a peaceful approach to independence would have been much less painful and possibly even have avoided partition.


 The British giving up Kenya and the British giving up Ireland would have been two completely different propositions.


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Apr 2016)

Purple the people of Scotland do not agree with your analysis.  Some would argue that whatever wealth the figures demonstrate it is mainly still enjoyed by an elite, albeit more Irish than in 1916.

The first 70 years of independence were an economic and social desert. Two things have transformed the economic situation. Firstly and ironically on joining the EU we were such a basket case that huge funds were lavished on us.  Secondly we had the 12.5% CT rate.  Neither of these would have been available except for independence, I agree.
On the social front several developments blew away the cobwebs.  One was the invasion by foreign culture wrought by modern mass media and another was the RC church seriously shooting itself in the foot.
Back to topic, the legacy of violence through the next 6 years across the country and during the long war in the North was IMHO and with hindsight entirely unnecessary and alternative routes could have seen us as a unified and prosperous country ala Canada or Oz


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## Betsy Og (8 Apr 2016)

[QUOTE="
Back to topic, the legacy of violence through the next 6 years across the country and during the long war in the North was IMHO and with hindsight entirely unnecessary and alternative routes could have seen us as a unified and prosperous country ala Canada or Oz[/QUOTE]

I just dont see how a united ireland could satisfy both communities, then or now. Where we are now is probably as good as its going to get (or was ever going to get) - arguably we might have gotten there with less violence (particularly in the 6 county occupied area ). So I think its far from clear that the 26 counties would have shortly after 1916, or even yet would have, the level of autonomy it now has. Put it this way, Baroness Thatcher explained that NI was a boil on the ass of the UK (using different words), even the 32 counties would have been a backwater for London. So 100% I think the fight was right (1916-1922), the notion that we would get handed something acceptable and within an acceptable timeframe, in the context of the Ulster Volunteers and their breakaway and the resistance to which the fight was in fact met, does not hold water IMHO. There's a bit of Aunt > 00 > Uncle about the whole revisionist thing, there's no point looking at Britain today and how we're all buddies and applying that to 1916 - back then the empire ruled, we were just bog wogs compared to those superior beings....


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Apr 2016)

_Betsy, _I respectfully disagree.  In the context of 1916 the very minimum that was on the cards was a partitionist Home Rule solution, no way was anything less than that going to be delivered and mighty soon.  In fact a primary motivation for the Rising, and which ultimately led to civil war, is that the likes of Pearse saw very clearly that with Ulster's resistance, a watered down version of HR was looming.  The partition that eventually was imposed was even more of a kick in the teeth to republicans than they feared (they thought only four counties would escape).  I really can't see how anyone can view the Rising as a success unless of course you are an Armagh/Fermanagh unionist who should be eternally grateful for the 1916 escapades.


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## Purple (8 Apr 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Betsy, _I respectfully disagree.  In the context of 1916 the very minimum that was on the cards was a partitionist Home Rule solution, no way was anything less than that going to be delivered and mighty soon.  In fact a primary motivation for the Rising, and which ultimately led to civil war, is that the likes of Pearse saw very clearly that with Ulster's resistance, a watered down version of HR was looming.  The partition that eventually was imposed was even more of a kick in the teeth to republicans than they feared (they thought only four counties would escape).  I really can't see how anyone can view the Rising as a success unless of course you are an Armagh/Fermanagh unionist who should be eternally grateful for the 1916 escapades.


Home Rule was the child of John Redmond. He was a loyal subject of the Empire and neither wanted or expected an independent Ireland. For him Home Rule was an end in itself. The most we would have ended up with was a Welsh style assembly.


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## Duke of Marmalade (8 Apr 2016)

Purple, the Free State was little more than HR for the 26 counties, far less than what was almost certain by peaceful means in 1916. The Rising achieved nothing and actually ensured that 6 counties would be exempted.


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## Betsy Og (8 Apr 2016)

No-one is saying the rising, as an event, was a success. My view is that partition was either inevitable or what we'd have to accept to stay in a united Ireland would not be acceptable to nationalists, or maybe we would have had the more obvious civil war (sectarian slaughter).

Anyway, isnt it better for us to have earned our freedom rather than get patted on the head with some watery regional assembly - why do we have to nearly apologise for our existence???, we were a shining light when most of Europe was in the dark ages, why should we accept anything less than being our own nation?? Ok it was a slow road for a long time, but lots of countries had a slow start and/or are far worse that we are.


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## Duke of Marmalade (9 Apr 2016)

Betsy the Free State was a watery National Assembly. That's why there was a civil war. Republicans couldn't accept a setup which they knew was less than would have been available about four years earlier and without all the blood sacrifice.
True that in time Dev and finally Costello unilaterally welched on the Treaty so that we have the independent 26 counties of today.
Whether a 32 county "watery assembly" would have had the same consensus in tearing up the Treaty is moot.


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## Betsy Og (9 Apr 2016)

Do you really honestly think the Ulster Volunteers/solemn covenantors were going to join a 32 county Home Rule arrangement? - "the Home Rule egg, laid in Westminster, wont hatch in Ulster", and if they did then do you think it would have been plain sailing to ignore/dismantle the Treaty as happened in the 26? 

Apart from the academic stuff (oaths, foreign embassies, lame duck Westminster guy - Viceroy General or whatever they called him), the Free State arrangement gave us control of our own affairs in all meaningful respects - sure declaring the Republic was more or less meaningless when it happened because it had been de-facto so for so long (& ok that was a good bit later on). If Dev hadnt thrown Collins under the bus and then go playing the big man we wouldn't have had half the bother with the civil war (Dev quashed the republican rump nice and fast when it suited him), the irony being the Dev carried out what he initially rejected (the freedom to achieve freedom).

So I'm afraid you have to square the northern circle to convince me that it was all a bun fight over nothing - isnt it just as likely Westminster would have kicked to touch with no home rule for anyone rather that trying to get unionists into as 32 county arrangement or go setting up 2 parliaments - I know if I was them that's what I would have done, citing lack of consensus as an excuse for doing nowt -  we had to give them some incentive to get the hell out.


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## Sophrosyne (9 Apr 2016)

Betsy Og said:


> why do we have to nearly apologise for our existence???


 
We don't!

It is rather for the UK and its centuries-long tiny colonist enclave situated in Northern Ireland to explain themselves to the modern world.


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## cremeegg (10 Apr 2016)

Betsy Og said:


> No-one is saying the rising, as an event, was a success.



Well if no one is saying that, some one should, so I will say that the 1916 rising was a an enormous success. A success in terms of the dreams its organisers.

It was never expected that the rising would result in a military victory. The objective was to state to the world that Ireland was a separate country from Britain and that it did not accept British rule.

It is difficult for us to see now but the concept of Ireland as a separate country was slipping away in the late 19th century. There was a cultural revival, the Gaelic League, the GAA etc. but politically well there was John Redmond, who was less advanced a nationalist than Parnell a generation earlier.

Pearse was a poet and his rising was a piece of theatre intended to inspire. That in lead to a war of independence within 2 years was its success.

Judging it by events more that 50 years later is a nonsense.


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## Duke of Marmalade (10 Apr 2016)

_cremeegg_ success depends on who's making the judgement, a 26 county theocracy you judge to be a success, I don't.  But I suppose what matters is whether those who died 'for' Ireland would think it a success. I am sure James Connolly for one would have seen it is a complete failure of his aim for a 32 county socialist republic.
Let me remind you of a gem from Costello as late as 1950. "I am second an Irishman, but first I am a catholic, I accept without reservation everything that the Catholic hierarchy dictates." Charming I'm sure.


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## Betsy Og (10 Apr 2016)

Duke, as we know, the leaders of the Rising were not strong on realism. Just because James Connolly wanted a socialist republic does not mean it was ever on, or even wanted by the people. Plus, as I said in an early post on this thread, I'm not too fussed what the leaders of the rising would think of Ireland today, for all our faults its still the best small country to .......... (or at least its a fairly good small country to.......). Re Catholic Church domination, a dark chapter but its over now so what's your point exactly?


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## Purple (11 Apr 2016)

In the context of the Home Rule bill the first threat of violence was from the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF). Armed with German rifles they were primed to engage in armed resistance against any form of Home Rule. There is no way a government in Westminster was ever going to send British troops to fight protestant loyalists in Belfast in order to support a devolved government in Dublin.

Home Rule is a historical red herring; it was never going to happen.


The argument about what happened next; Dev and Collins, the catholic Church etc is a different argument. Those were our issues for us to sort out.

I don’t buy into the cartoon caricature of Dev from that dreadful film by Neil Jordan. I don’t think the country would have been much different if Collins or anyone else was in charge. Collins did the best thing anyone can do to secure their legacy; he died young. He probably would have been a better leader but he certainly wouldn’t have created a liberal utopia.


I also don’t buy into the idea that the Catholic Church would not have had a dominant role in Ireland for most of the last century if we had remained under British rule. They have always sided with the establishment and would have continued to do so with the Brits running things, simply being one of their instruments of control.


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## Duke of Marmalade (11 Apr 2016)

_Purple_, I agree with yourself and _Betsy_ that the fierce (albeit understandable, esp with hindsight) resistance of Ulster prods to Rome Rule was making a 32 county HR very unlikely.  In fact the possibility of a lesser HR was a prime motivator for the Rising.  The 26 county version was the minimum that could be expected at the end of the WW1.  The Rising delayed this minimalist settlement by four years and much bloodshed.  Just as I concede that the originally promised 32 county HR wasn't on surely you concede that a continuation of the status quo and completely defaulting on the HR promise was equally unlikely.


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## Purple (11 Apr 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Purple_, I agree with yourself and _Betsy_ that the fierce (albeit understandable, esp with hindsight) resistance of Ulster prods was making a 32 county HR very unlikely.  In fact the possibility of a lesser HR was a prime motivator for the Rising.  The 26 county version was the minimum that could be expected at the end of the WW1.  The Rising delayed this minimalist settlement by four years and much bloodshed.  Just as I concede that the originally promised 32 county HR wasn't on surely you concede that a continuation of the status quo and completely defaulting on the HR promise was equally unlikely.


I don’t think so. Nothing feeds the weed that is jingoism  like a war. The 1916 Rising was beyond criticism for decades. The First World War would also have rendered Home Rule and talk of a free Ireland moot for the same reason. It becomes unpatriotic to question the motives or actions of those who give a blood sacrifice.

Just look  at the resurrection of the profile and career of a bigoted imperialist like Rudyard Kipling; a joke and embarrassment in 1913, a leader of opinion and shining light in 1915 (before his son was killed in action and he changed his mind about the whole thing).


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## Gerry Canning (11 Apr 2016)

Betsy,

Back in 1968 ,the issue was Civil Rights.There was an undercurrent of United Ireland.
 The N Ire Government made an utter mess of handling of Civil Rights,
This left the door open(,to use old war cries from 1916 period) ie for  Paisley to use the old  Ulster says No and the IRA to use Paddy Pearses blood lust on united Ireland to have a nasty conflict until GFA.
In no way is the sectarianism as bad as it was , what you now see is minor and hopefully will die out in time.

I think our Commemoration was measured and fair.


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## Betsy Og (11 Apr 2016)

Gerry Canning said:


> In no way is the sectarianism as bad as it was , what you now see is minor and hopefully will die out in time.



But sure what about poor Micheala??, wasn't she run out of Belfast.....

Good to hear things improving, anything I'd heard in recent years was of no great change (& I read recently about GAA club burnings and people putting paint on civilian memorials....but I guess there will always be some element on both sides). A pity that schools and sport (some of them anyway) have that segregation aspect built into them, we'll give it a few more generations I guess (long memories up there though...1690 & all that..)


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## Gerry Canning (11 Apr 2016)

On Michaela , sometimes Belfast was right to evict ????
.......................................................................
What about graveyards vandalised in Dublin, twits burning clubhouses in Wexford.
News media pick up the negatives.
From where N Ire was the changes are largely positive and (bigots) are being unceremoniously told to grow up and shut up.
100% agree that schooling in N Ire being segregated, is such an ongoing entrenched bad idea..


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## cremeegg (12 Apr 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _cremeegg_ success depends on who's making the judgement, a 26 county theocracy you judge to be a success, I don't.



How can you say that the rising lead to a 26 county theocracy. That makes no sense. You don't even make an argument that someone could disagree with. Not even wrong.

Many people would accept that the 26 county state and the 6 county state ("a protestant state for a protestant people") were both excessively dominated by religious interests. 

I have to admit I have no clear understanding how this came about in relation to the 26 counties. Maybe it was due to the efforts of the Catholic church, maybe it was due to John A Costello, maybe it was the will of the people. But to lay it at the door of the rising ?


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## Duke of Marmalade (12 Apr 2016)

_cremeegg_ all prospects of a pluralist 32 county settlement were scuppered by the Rising.
If despite the lack of the counterbalance of Protestant liberal influence the Free State had behaved as a secular republic ala James Connolly then that would have been a different story.


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## Betsy Og (12 Apr 2016)

Ah yes, that 'lock the children swings on the sabbath' liberalism was sorely missed......


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## Purple (13 Apr 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _cremeegg_ all prospects of a pluralist 32 county settlement were scuppered by the Rising.
> 
> If despite the lack of the counterbalance of Protestant liberal influence the Free State had behaved as a secular republic ala James Connolly then that would have been a different story.



Are you really suggesting that the Northern Presbyterian influence would have been liberal!?

There was no prospect of a pluralist 32 county settlement, with or without the Rising, not short of an India/Pakistan or Israel/Jordan  type partition where vast numbers of people were forcefully relocated to Britain.


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## cremeegg (13 Apr 2016)

Purple said:


> There was no prospect of a pluralist 32 county settlement, with or without the Rising, not short of an India/Pakistan or Israel/Jordan  type partition where vast numbers of people were forcefully relocated to Britain.



He is right Duke.

And furthermore, the well intentioned, liberal, Anglo-Irish ascendancy, Yeats' "no petty people" had influence if not control of the country in the preceding century and despite their good intentions this was the situation we were in.

100 plus years earlier, Wolfe Tone wanted to "unite Catholic Protestant and Dissenter in the common name of Irishman"

By 1916, the majority in Ulster had come to see their identity in terms of their Protestant religion and not their Irish nationality.


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