# Is it legal to take Property Tax from Social Welfare or Childrens Allowance?



## TrundleAlong (24 Dec 2012)

I am not sure why people get Social Welfare and Children's Allowance? 

Is it part of our constitution to assist people in need and families etc.?

If this is the case how can our government allow the revenue commissioners access to these funds for property tax purposes. 

Could it be challenged in a court of law?


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## d2x2 (24 Dec 2012)

TrundleAlong said:


> I am not sure why people get Social Welfare and Children's Allowance. Is it part of our constitution to assist people in need and families etc.



You can read the Constitution here . You'll find a number of articles relating to Social Policy.


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## Time (24 Dec 2012)

People on SW can just keep deferring the tax until the house is sold.


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## pudds (24 Dec 2012)

Time said:


> People on SW can just keep deferring the tax until the house is sold.



+ the 4% penalty tax each year.


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## Time (24 Dec 2012)

I doubt that would worry most who are deferring payment.


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## Time (25 Dec 2012)

Nope. They can only defer payment.


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## TrundleAlong (25 Dec 2012)

By deferring payment they are in effect borrowing from the Government to pay their property tax. This is wrong and the Government are behaving like money lenders to those who cannot afford to pay. This penalty interest will mount up over the years leading to a lot of worry for people.


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## Jim2007 (25 Dec 2012)

TrundleAlong said:


> By deferring payment they are in effect borrowing from the Government to pay their property tax. This is wrong and the Government are behaving like money lenders to those who cannot afford to pay. This penalty interest will mount up over the years leading to a lot of worry for people.



Just as income tax is based on the income you earn, property tax will be based on the property you hold, there is nothing unfair or inequitable about that!  How you choose to pay the tax is up to you - defer, borrow or pay it out of your income... or dispose of the property if you so wish.

Property tax is applied in most of the Euro region and I don't see any reason why it should be different here!  In fact in most of Europe it it is applied to all assets held by the individual, not just property.


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## TrundleAlong (25 Dec 2012)

Jim2007 said:


> Just as income tax is based on the income you earn, property tax will be based on the property you hold,


 
If you EARN you might be able to pay. If you don't EARN how can you pay.

A home doesn't EARN.


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## BOXtheFOX (25 Dec 2012)

sahd said:


> They can only deduct it if it does not bring their weekly income below the amount of supplementary welfare allowance


 
That suggests that the Supplementary Welfare Allowance is the amount set by various agencies as the minimum amount that a person needs to exist. The Social Welfare amounts above this are a "bonus" of sorts. This extra layer of fat looks as if it will be fair game in the future.

What is the difference between the basic Social Welfare payment and the Supplementary Welfare Allowance? Would it be better to let the Revenue take this difference. How much would it add up to in a year?


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## Time (25 Dec 2012)

> What is the difference between the basic Social Welfare payment and the Supplementary Welfare Allowance?


Those two amounts are the same, €188 for a single person or €312 for a married couple.

There is really no scope to deduct from these payments. It has already been advised to the minister for SP that such deductions would be illegal.


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## pudds (25 Dec 2012)

SWA is €186 pw. €2 pw less than the standard rate of €188. So 
€2 x 52wks= €104 which would cover the minimum Property tax of €96

and still leave people just above the poverty line, how bad.


This government is showing us how you _can_ get blood from a stone.


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## gipimann (25 Dec 2012)

The Supplementary Welfare Allowance rate is currently €2 per week lower than the standard Jobseeker's payment, at €186 for a single person and €310 for a couple.

The Social Welfare bill which was passed last week allows for deductions of up to 15% of a person's weekly SW payment to recover overpayments.   This got through with very little comment or objection (which was all directed towards the carer's cuts).   As this is now law, there is little to stop revenue introducing a similar legislative change to deduct the local property tax from SW payments.


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## Jim2007 (25 Dec 2012)

TrundleAlong said:


> If you EARN you might be able to pay. If you don't EARN how can you pay.
> 
> A home doesn't EARN.



If you own the property, then you are wealthy enough to pay, just like every other European and if not, then do like every other Europen - borrow, defer or sell!

It's about time Irish social protection got into line with the rest of the Euro zone, espically since we are borrowing to pay for it.


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## Time (25 Dec 2012)

gipimann said:


> The Supplementary Welfare Allowance rate is currently €2 per week lower than the standard Jobseeker's payment, at €186 for a single person and €310 for a couple.
> 
> The Social Welfare bill which was passed last week allows for deductions of up to 15% of a person's weekly SW payment to recover overpayments.   This got through with very little comment or objection (which was all directed towards the carer's cuts).   As this is now law, there is little to stop revenue introducing a similar legislative change to deduct the local property tax from SW payments.



I doubt they will bother as a SW recipient can just defer payment indefinitely.


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## Jim2007 (26 Dec 2012)

As we move into a more integrated Euro zone this will happen as a matter of course, but having said that, it would seem that Irish public service pay is not that far off the European average, when all is said and done according to both the OECD and the IMF.


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## BOXtheFOX (26 Dec 2012)

Jim2007 said:


> If you own the property, then you are wealthy enough to pay, just like every other European and if not, then do like every other Europen - borrow, defer or sell!
> 
> It's about time Irish social protection got into line with the rest of the Euro zone, espically since we are borrowing to pay for it.


 
When we are equal in all aspects of our lives, tax rates, social protection, health costs, transport costs, insurance costs, in effect the normal cost of living costs then I might agree with your argument.


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## Grizzly (26 Dec 2012)

gipimann said:


> The Social Welfare bill which was passed last week allows for deductions of up to 15% of a person's weekly SW payment to recover overpayments.


 
But if this is for "overpayments" then it is a method for recovering this error in payment. Some might have spent this overpayment, some might not. I don't think that this is comparing like with like.
If €188 per week is deemed the amount that a persons needs to have to survive then I cannot see how anyone can take a portion of this to pay a tax.


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## oldnick (26 Dec 2012)

Jim2007 

You reckon if you own property "you are wealthy enough to pay ".

Does this mean that if one owns a house worth 200.000 but owes the bank 400.000 then one is wealthy enough to pay ? This is exactly the position for tens of thousands of people., many of them on S.W.

These people cannot - as you claim - sell, and certainly cannot borrow. Deferring would seem the only option.


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## Grizzly (27 Dec 2012)

oldnick said:


> Jim2007
> 
> Deferring would seem the only option.


 
It appears that people will be forced to defer payment and be forced to borrow their property tax @ 4% per annum from the Irish Government.

To be paid back years down the road when the widow or widower has to sell or the kids are settling their parents estate. With inheritance tax thresholds dropping like a stone the children/executor might end up being a tax collector for the government.


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## IsleOfMan (30 Dec 2012)

pudds said:


> SWA is €186 pw. €2 pw less than the standard rate of €188. So
> €2 x 52wks= €104 which would cover the minimum Property tax of €96
> 
> and still leave people just above the poverty line, how bad.
> ...


 
Well if they can only take a maximum of €104 then it might suit some people to let them take that amount especially if their tax was above this amount.


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## itsallwrong (31 Dec 2012)

The level of how immoral it is to blackmail a welfare recipient into paying now or face accrued interest on the extorted charge makes me want to vomit.
Yet another measure to keep the poor poorer.


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## Kev (31 Dec 2012)

itsallwrong said:


> The level of how immoral it is to blackmail a welfare recipient into paying now or face accrued interest on the extorted charge makes me want to vomit.
> Yet another measure to keep the poor poorer.



The saying is: to make a rich person work harder is to pay s/he more and to make a poor person work harder is to pay s/he less.


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## itsallwrong (31 Dec 2012)

The question of 'is it legal to take Property Tax from S.W. or C.A' is beside the point.
The government just made the Social Welfare bill law so the power is now there to do it.
Quick follow up amendments to the law can give wide reaching power to any government agency that needs it to get the money.


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## ajapale (1 Jan 2013)

itsallwrong said:


> The government just made the Social Welfare bill law so the power is now there to do it.
> 
> Quick follow up amendments to the law can give wide reaching power to any government agency that needs it to get the money.



Yes, I agree.

I imagine that it is open any citizen to challenge the constitutionality of such provisions but such a challenge would be expensive folly in my opinion.


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## Time (1 Jan 2013)

The irony is the a SW recipient would get free legal aid to bring such a challenge.

I don't really see an issue as any deduction cannot bring your payment below the SWA level.


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## SoylentGreen (2 Jan 2013)

Time said:


> I don't really see an issue as any deduction cannot bring your payment below the SWA level.


 
But you may be forced to defer the tax payment @ 4% p.a.


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## Time (2 Jan 2013)

Of course. The deferral will be necessary for many people. What I was stating is that the tax is highly unlikely to be deducted by force from SW payments.


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## Magpie (8 Jan 2013)

TrundleAlong said:


> I am not sure why people get Social Welfare and Children's Allowance?



You're not sure? Do you think its maybe so they don't starve in the streets if they can't get work?


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## dereko1969 (8 Jan 2013)

itsallwrong said:


> The question of 'is it legal to take Property Tax from S.W. or C.A' is beside the point.
> The government just made the Social Welfare bill law so the power is now there to do it.
> *Quick follow up amendments to the law *can give wide reaching power to any government agency that needs it to get the money.


 
You do realise we have an Oireachtas, democratically elected, that would have to pass changes to the law?



Time said:


> *The irony is the a SW recipient would get free legal aid to bring such a challenge*.
> 
> I don't really see an issue as any deduction cannot bring your payment below the SWA level.


 
I'm fairly sure that free legal aid does not cover a constitutional challenge to the Supreme Court but, you know, facts, what are they good for.


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## Time (8 Jan 2013)

No shortage of barristers willing to take such a case on for free either.


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## dereko1969 (8 Jan 2013)

Time said:


> No shortage of barristers willing to take such a case on for free either.


 
Really? When there's no money in it even if the client wins?


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## Time (8 Jan 2013)

If the state loses they get costs and thus paid.


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## Tintagel (9 Jan 2013)

Magpie said:


> You're not sure? Do you think its maybe so they don't starve in the streets if they can't get work?


 
I think that's what TrundleAlong meant. How can a state say that they are providing for people to prevent the above happening and then take it back in tax?


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