# extend and renovate or rebuild



## gooner (14 Feb 2008)

I am trying to decide whether to extend and renovate the small 2 bedroom (approx 60sqm) bungalow style house that I live in or demolish it and start again with a clean slate.The main reason for retaining it would be the fact that my aunt owned it and my father build it (both deceased).It has no central heating and still has some round pin electrical sockets.The planner has ruled out a second house on the site during his visit,but is ok with the options of extension or replace.Has anyone experience of this senario or advice on this matter.I have asked a few people and they all differ in optinion.

Is it better to demolish and start again - cheaper,faster,better insulated?

Or is it better to retain the existing part - cheaper?

Feel free to post questions,as I may have missed some important details.

Thanks!


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## gooner (3 Mar 2011)

Hi Sorry for bumping up this tread after a long time,but thought it was beter than starting again 

3 years have passed and we have planning for a replacement 240sqm dormer on the site since summer 2008. We have never built this and in the current climate we are rethinking our strategy.

We are hoping to build either a smaller house of about 150sqm dormer and demolish the existing 60sqm 1970 bungalow OR renovate the existing house and add on an approx 120sqm dormer extension to it.

Now this is where we are getting different views. Some people  are telling us its cheaper/better to keep the existing house and renovate and extend and others saying its a no brainer to demolish and start with a clean slate.
I've also read somewhere that a renovation can sometimes cost as much as a new build (we have no insulation worth talking about, no existing central heating).I have also read that adding an extension onto an existing large house can work out well, but if the existing house is small (like ours), then it makes no financial sense.

I would love to hear other opinions on this from the experts and anyone with experience of this on here. God its like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Please post all your opinions whatever they are and maybe some of you have been in a similar position to us.

Many thanks in advance.

Hoping to make a decision and move on it soon!


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## Nige (3 Mar 2011)

Unless the current structure has any historical or architectural merit, I think I'd knock and start from scratch.

I'm currently renovating an old farmhouse. We went with renovation rather than demolition as I really like the shape of the house, it is big enough for us and I find it hard enough to make the 100s of decisions involved in the process, if we were building from scratch I'd find it impossible to finalise a design.  

However, we have only, really, kept the four external walls, the interal chimney and the floor of the upper floor. The ground floor has been dug up for damp proofing and insulation, we've lost about a foot off each room adding insulation to the walls, we replaced the roof, the windows and the doors and knocked the internal walls.  If we have saved any money over building from new, it is marginal.


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## gooner (3 Mar 2011)

Nige said:


> Unless the current structure has any historical or architectural merit, I think I'd knock and start from scratch.
> 
> I'm currently renovating an old farmhouse. We went with renovation rather than demolition as I really like the shape of the house, it is big enough for us and I find it hard enough to make the 100s of decisions involved in the process, if we were building from scratch I'd find it impossible to finalise a design.
> 
> However, we have only, really, kept the four external walls, the interal chimney and the floor of the upper floor. The ground floor has been dug up for damp proofing and insulation, we've lost about a foot off each room adding insulation to the walls, we replaced the roof, the windows and the doors and knocked the internal walls. If we have saved any money over building from new, it is marginal.


 
Thanks for the reply. No it is a 1970's standard rectangular bungalow that has had a tiny flat roof extension to the kitchen and a flat roof porch added to the entire length of the house. W have made no improvements at all during the last 5-10 years,except a lick of paint. Please keep the replies coming and any questions,fire away.


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## onq (3 Mar 2011)

A 1970's bungalow will become a 100 years old at some point and what today might seem commonplance and of no value may at some point be seen as an examplar of something built at a particular time and place.
No-one who bought Superman or Batman comics in the 1940's thought they would become worth thousands of dollars as collectors editions.
That having been said, a clean slate is a good place ot start, but your means may not support a demolition and rebuild.

There is really no point discussing what you can do until you have a price for whatever options you're looking at including demolition costs.
More important you need to engage an architect ot help you discuss the options available to you in the future.
You can see several recent posts from me about what an archtiect can bring to the table  in this regard.

ONQ.

    [broken link removed]

    All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied                 upon    as a defence or support - in and of itself -   should     legal       action     be    taken.
    Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise         in            Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports    on   the        matters    at     hand.


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## gooner (3 Mar 2011)

onq said:


> A 1970's bungalow will become a 100 years old at some point and what today might seem commonplance and of no value may at some point be seen as an examplar of something built at a particular time and place.
> No-one who bought Superman or Batman comics in the 1940's thought they would become worth thousands of dollars as collectors editions.
> That having been said, a clean slate is a good place ot start, but your means may not support a demolition and rebuild.
> 
> ...




Thanks for you reply.I have had a builder roughly cost the 140sqm extension/renovation at about 90k (from rough plan) and the new build at 130k (based solely on sq foot price). now I think that the first one is a little optimistic given that I would put the sq foot price at approx €85 (Northwest), which would give a 140 sqm 1.5 story extension price at about €128k and then renovation of the existing 60sqm of say €50 sq foot (hard to say whether this would cover it, as its a bit of an unknown),which would give a price of €32k, so an overall price moves up closer to €160k. A totally newly built 160 sq meter house based on the €85 square foot price would come in approx €147k. Granted the extension/renovation ends up with a bigger house, we would also be happy with 150-160 sqm. 

Arrrh its a real pain in the head, but I guess better to be trying to decide at this stage than later.

I take on board your advice on engaging a proper architect, as I know it will be money well spent. I know a good architect should hopefully be able to give a comfortable 3 bedroom house at 150sqm.

Forgot to mention earlier that we have free accommodation during the build, so I guess that should not factor on our final decision. I have put the budget at 150k, but hey we'd all like to do it for less!!

Anyway thanks for your views. Keep them coming guys.


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## onq (5 Mar 2011)

gooner,

You have to walk away from these ballpark estimates - they will just walk you straight into trouble.
You need a set of drawings properly specced up with everything called up  on them down to the number and type of plug points and light fittings

Even on a €150,000 I would get a Bill of Quantities [BoQ] done and agree a schedule of rates.


 If you fail to fix the price you are wide upen to either getting fleeced on extras.
 If you fix the price but have not agreed a proper bill or sample you are not assured of quality.
  A good balance smay be achieved with a proper estimate of costs based on a  good set of drawings and a specification with sample of the fixtures and  fittings.
This leaves the builder free to offer equal approved for your  architect to check out for you and you may achieve cost reductions to your benefit.
That way you may make savings but maintain quality and you have an independent eye looking out for your best interests.

The reason for the BoQ and drawings in the first place is so you can get  a minimum of thre prices for the work - but don't simply accept the  lowest price.
There are many contractors out there who have been hit hard and are  clinging on by the skin of their teeth, forced into below cost trading.  Too much of that and they go under eventually.
This can lead to a situation where sub-contractors or suppliers are suing for materials or work done from the main contractor.

Materials that are on site but not incorporated into the built work yet  may be subject to seizure depending on the form of words of the  contract.
Its important to have alternative builders to take over the work and   more importantly that you have someone who will only certify the works   that are complete on site.
This is where a competent architect can bring a dregree fo  confidence to the situation - most are well versed in variosu forms of  contract and can advise for example on making variations to the terms  and what these might mean.

At no point go to site without agreeing a programme, a price and  liquidated and ascertained damages [LAAD].
Do NOT for example tell your  builder that you have somewhere to stay for free - this could change  anyway, but you need to keep your builder on his toes at all times.
That  having been said the LAAD cannot be a penalty, but has to be a genuine  estimate of loss in the event the contract exceeds its term.

Too many self builders are taking the DIY route without even wanting to  know the risks, never mind why the existing checks and balance are in  place in the building industry. They are not arbitrary and contracts  have been developed to suit whatever situation is envisaged.

Food for thought. 

ONQ.

     [broken link removed]

     All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied                  upon    as a defence or support - in and of itself -    should     legal       action     be    taken.
     Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise          in            Real Life with rights to inspect and issue  reports    on   the        matters    at     hand.


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## gooner (5 Apr 2011)

Thanks for the replies guys. I take on board all your comments and advice. My brother in law is a QS in the north, so will be getting him to spec and do a bill of quantities once I can decide on what the hell I'm going to do,haha. I spoke with him recently and his advise from a cost point of view was to knock and rebuild, as it would cost as much to bring up to current regs and even then it's still a 40 year old element. He also thought that I was having to work around what is there to get what I want and that I could get there much easier from a blank canvas. So having looked at all the pros and cons I tend to agree with him. 

Now my next big step is to have a redesign and change of house planing sought. I tend to be leaning towards the idea of smart design in a compact floor area (approx 150-170sm) over 2 floors (dormer or converted attic) so as to keep the foundations and roof area minimised and the cost down. Probably also go towards a simple shape again to keep costs down.i think I'm right on these 2 cost reducing elements,not sure. I would be grateful if you guys could advise on these and other elements / tips that would keep the build costs down. I plan to insulate to at least the regs and hopefully beyond that with a reasonable airtightness and hoping with that the heat demand will be low and allow for a simple heating system such as oil with rads. I will of course seek professional advise on this.

Now for the challenging part. If any of you guys are from Donegal and can recommend a good architect that is skilled at getting good use of space from compact designs. I know that it is a challenge to fit everything in to a smaller design, but I'm sure there are some good architects out there that can do that. I also have a cracking site with direct access onto the beach and with mountains in the background and would like to make the most of the views and the freedom of south facing aspects of the site. So all recommendations by pm welcome.

Thanks again for your time guys.


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## onq (6 Apr 2011)

gooner,

My last house job was inherited from a Donegal archtitect! LOL!

Any architect should be able to do what you ask.

Reducing the size and keeping plans simple is the right way to go.

Take leaves from the Passive Haus designers rule book.

Make the most of the available south light.

Reduce all north facing windows.

ONQ.

 [broken link removed]

 All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied       upon      as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal       action be      taken.
 Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in            Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the     matters   at      hand.


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