# Should people be made work for the Dole?



## Liamos (2 Feb 2012)

Does anyone disagree with the notion that anyone who is capable of working should be made work for their dole?

I hear all the time that the dole is too high and is a discouragement to find a job. Also people on the dole would rather be working.

Well, why not make it compulsory for people to get out of their beds at least 3 mornings per week and earn their dole?


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## The_Banker (2 Feb 2012)

Would you apply this to someone who was laid off after 25 years of working for a company who went to the wall during the financial crisis and paid his/her PAYE taxes and PRSI social insurance over those 25 years?


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## TarfHead (2 Feb 2012)

Yes - I disagree with the notion that people should be made work for their dole.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2012)

Liamos said:


> Does anyone disagree with the notion that anyone who is capable of working should be made work for their dole?
> 
> I hear all the time that the dole is too high and is a discouragement to find a job. Also people on the dole would rather be working.
> 
> Well, why not make it compulsory for people to get out of their beds at least 3 mornings per week and earn their dole?


 
I couldn't see it working in the manner you have outlined. It would need oversight and a layer of bureaucracy and it would be a field day for the PC brigade. Quite simply I think it would fall apart as it would look like slave labour. A much better way IMO is to ensure that you are always better off working for the minimum wage than staying at home.


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## flossie (2 Feb 2012)

If unemployed for more than say 12 monthsm you should have to work for the dole. Jobs should involve clearing streets, assisting elderly/disabled in our communities, helping in creches etc. to lower cost of childcare. If people want their benefits and some of the aspects of lifestyle they allow (smoking, Sky TV, mobile phones etc.) they should have to earn these.

If you don't go out to earn these, you should be given food vouchers which are not transferrable to anyone or anything other than staple foods, basic accommodation and a small allowance per week. Draconian? Maybe, but as discussed above people shouldn't be better off not working.


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2012)

flossie said:


> If unemployed for more than say 12 monthsm you should have to work for the dole. Jobs should involve clearing streets, assisting elderly/disabled in our communities, helping in creches etc. to lower cost of childcare. If people want their benefits and some of the aspects of lifestyle they allow (smoking, Sky TV, mobile phones etc.) they should have to earn these.
> 
> If you don't go out to earn these, you should be given food vouchers which are not transferrable to anyone or anything other than staple foods, basic accommodation and a small allowance per week. Draconian? Maybe, but as discussed above people shouldn't be better off not working.


 
Again, this all needs oversight and jobs filled by the state to manage. What better way to incentivise people to go back to work than to cut the dole? In my opinion, the dole should actually be pretty high in the first few months if you have worked say for >3 years as you are more likely to go back working anyway. Those still on the dole after 12 months should receive every diminishing amounts - you should be financially better off working for the minimum wage than drawing the dole IMO.


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## flossie (2 Feb 2012)

Firefly said:


> Again, this all needs oversight and jobs filled by the state to manage. What better way to incentivise people to go back to work than to cut the dole? In my opinion, the dole should actually be pretty high in the first few months if you have worked say for >3 years as you are more likely to go back working anyway. Those still on the dole after 12 months should receive every diminishing amounts - you should be financially better off working for the minimum wage than drawing the dole IMO.


 
Agree with your idea that dole should be pretty high in first few months if you have worked previously - perhaps even as much as 80 - 90% of your salary when you were working, and gradually decrease over time. People that enter the social welfare system straight after leaving school and never have jobs - that's different, they should be working for the money asx they have never contributed to a system, and support should be given to helping train these people with skills (employment, social, citizenship).


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## shnaek (2 Feb 2012)

Are we the only country in the EU that has unlimited (by time) entitlement to dole payments?


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## DB74 (2 Feb 2012)

I would prefer to see prisoners being made to work before dole recipients

Also I would like to see someone's dole entitlements based on their social contribution record over the past, say 5-10 years

So someone with a full 10 years contributions would receive 100% dole allowances while someone with, say 8 of 10 years would receive 80% allowance etc

That type of system anyway


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## micmclo (2 Feb 2012)

shnaek said:


> Are we the only country in the EU that has unlimited (by time) entitlement to dole payments?



Same in the UK


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## Purple (2 Feb 2012)

Liamos said:


> Does anyone disagree with the notion that anyone who is capable of working should be made work for their dole?


 In some cases yes but as a general rule no.


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## Smashbox (2 Feb 2012)

I know where I live, there were 3 people on the dole who were told just before Christmas that they had to clean the village or else their money would be stopped. They now work 8am-5pm cleaning up litter, cutting branches, and doing other small jobs around the place. 

Two out of the three loved the idea. The third guy wasn't very happy about having to be up before 11am


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## Wishes (2 Feb 2012)

I wouldn't have a problem working for dole money.  It would probably be a lot more than the buttons I'm currently earning!


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## Firefly (2 Feb 2012)

Smashbox said:


> I know where I live, there were 3 people on the dole who were told just before Christmas that they had to clean the village or else their money would be stopped. They now work 8am-5pm cleaning up litter, cutting branches, and doing other small jobs around the place.


 
If there are real jobs out there these should be filled first though rather than making pretendy-uppy jobs. That should be a key benefit of the minimum wage....it should be there to provide someone with an incentive to work rather then living off the dole as well as protecting them for greedy business owners.


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## blueband (2 Feb 2012)

firefly said:


> if there are real jobs out there these should be filled first though rather than making pretendy-uppy jobs. That should be a key benefit of the minimum wage....it should be there to provide someone with an incentive to work rather then living off the dole as well as protecting them for greedy business owners.


+1


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## micmclo (2 Feb 2012)

While it's easy to say some on the dole are lazy it's very easy to fall into a rut. Sleep till noon, watch trash TV and drink cans to distract yourself.
Confidence in such a hole you stress just thinking about a job interview

Pull yourself together say many
True but it's tough but then life is tough and a series of challenges I suppose

Not sure about this plan but I think getting somewhere to go and co workers to chat to will do a world of good to many, out in the fresh air and painting some walls and doing some work, whatever you're sent to do
Gives you a purpose


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## june (3 Feb 2012)

shnaek said:


> Are we the only country in the EU that has unlimited (by time) entitlement to dole payments?



Why is this does anyone know?


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## BillK (3 Feb 2012)

Ructions here in England with the Government proposal that benefits shoulb be capped at £25,000 per year.
Suggested that this equates to about £35,000 for a working person pre tax.


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## Black Sheep (3 Feb 2012)

Was just wondering if any of the above posters have ever spent any time on the dole, because I can assure you it's not a pretty place to be.
Please do not assume that those on the dole have very low skills and would  be more suited to cleaning our Streets than perhaps helping our "weaker" students with homework or exam preparation.

A friend offered free Computer Classes at the local Library but was turned down.


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## Betsy Og (4 Feb 2012)

I agree with current proposals that you either undertake retraining or attend interviews/take jobs or else your benefits are cut. Its supposed to be jobseekers allowance, not wages for nothing.

PRSI will protect people (to some extent) for the first 12 months - you get higher benefits because of your contributions.

In California they pay benefits onto a card that, recently, couldnt be used for fortune tellers cards and off-licences - the same and a wider restriction would be welcome here - particularly for childrens allowance. I'm afraid that benefit is either saved (by people who dont need it), or wasted on lifestyle spending. Neglect of kids, apparently a not insignificant problem, should be prevented if childrens allowances was being spent properly.


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## huskerdu (4 Feb 2012)

june said:


> Why is this does anyone know?



You answered a question with another question and I have no idea what you are asking. 

Please explain.


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## truthseeker (4 Feb 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> I agree with current proposals that you either undertake retraining or attend interviews/take jobs or else your benefits are cut. Its supposed to be jobseekers allowance, not wages for nothing.



Are you aware that we are in a recession? My husband has been redundant for over a year now. He is educated to Masters level and has 11 years experience in his industry so is ineligible for any retraining schemes, as he simply could not be educated to the same level in anything that is on offer. 

He has attended interviews, and largely is turned down because he is so experienced (presumably they think he will run at the first opportunity). He most recently attended an interview where the salary was 1/4 of his previous salary (needs must) to be told on the phone a week later that he was not being offered the job because the person who would be working with the new staff member preferred to work with a woman. Mostly he does not even get a response to any job application. He trawls the job websites, FAS's website, newspapers daily looking for work.

If he was offered any job he would take it, but he hasnt been offered any job.

Edited to add - broadly I do agree with cutting benefits after a time period, but in the current economic environment I just dont see how people are expected to be able to find jobs quickly - any jobs! However, there was no excuse for people claiming dole during the boom years when there were jobs for all available.


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## Betsy Og (6 Feb 2012)

Truthseeker - as he's going to the interviews then he's playing his part. If he wasnt trying at all then that would be the problem. 

p.s. I know of a slightly different scenario of someone with lots of qualification but due to health issues are not really in a position to do the job they trained for - they decided in the end to "dumb down" their CV. So maybe that's an option?, a bit counter-intuitive but might keep things ticking over.


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## Protocol (6 Feb 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> PRSI will protect people (to some extent) for the first 12 months - you get higher benefits because of your contributions.


 
Unfortunately, this is not true anymore.

JSB = 188pw

JSA = 188pw

Most countries pay more in UI than in social assistance, but not us.


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## Leper (7 Feb 2012)

This subject was already discussed at length on this forum. The subject is old hat.

I remember when I was unemployed when many informed me that I should be clearing supermarket trolleys from rivers, painting old peoples' homes, delivering meals-on-wheels and cleaning the effluent of the affluent etc.

I was not unemployed for long. However, the people who were asserting themselves against the vulnerable unemployed found themselves unemployed in time. I reminded them of what they said and how I felt. Amazing, how people change their minds when they find themselves going to the labour exchange.


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## blueband (7 Feb 2012)

Leper said:


> This subject was already discussed at length on this forum. The subject is old hat.
> 
> I remember when I was unemployed when many informed me that I should be clearing supermarket trolleys from rivers, painting old peoples' homes, delivering meals-on-wheels and cleaning the effluent of the affluent etc.
> 
> I was not unemployed for long. However, the people who were asserting themselves against the vulnerable unemployed found themselves unemployed in time. I reminded them of what they said and how I felt. Amazing, how people change their minds when they find themselves going to the labour exchange.


+1 thats very true.


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## Betsy Og (7 Feb 2012)

I think the types people (well me anyway) begrudge paying welfare to are those:

-who never worked or tried to get a job
-have free housing and keep it looking like a kip
-who have kids so they can get on a housing list
-no interest in health so will clog our hospitals in due course
-are represented highly in our crime stats 
-have no value on what they are given

OK thats all very right wing, but is it untrue/unfair? I know there are inter-generational issues (3rd generation at the same craic, know no better etc.) but I think there needs to be some shock to the system that they need to 'play ball' with the State because taxpayers are sick of subsidising a lifestyle choice that costs us at every turn. For instance I think convictions should lead to a drop in welfare payments - at the moment there's a cohort who are 'untouchable' - we need to give them something to think about.

All the above is a world away from people who have worked, are anxious to get back working, and dont engage in the above listed. We're not talking about cancelling welfare, just putting a system in place where you get paid welfare if you play by the rules - the rules being law abiding and actually available for work.


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## Firefly (7 Feb 2012)

Betsy Og said:


> I think the types people (well me anyway) begrudge paying welfare to are those:
> 
> -who never worked or tried to get a job
> -have free housing and keep it looking like a kip
> ...


 
I'm not one usually for the softer approaches such as education and would in general favour just reducing the dole on a phased basis and letting people work it out for themselves. However, sadly, people with this outlook on life exist in every country. Where benefits are less, I would imagine an increase in crime, black economy activities would rise and the children/vulnerable would suffer even more. No easy win, but it's hard for anyone to justify that benefits should be higher than a minimum wage job. 

I had an interesting conversation with a work colleague last week about this. One thing he mentioned was that if these people cannot take money from the state they will take it from you!


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## DB74 (7 Feb 2012)

Looks like we all have it backwards. We need to be increasing the dole, not reducing it!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0206/jobseekers.html


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## Pique318 (7 Feb 2012)

truthseeker said:


> He most recently attended an interview where the salary was 1/4 of his previous salary (needs must) to be told on the phone a week later that he was not being offered the job because the person who would be working with the new staff member preferred to work with a woman.


That's preposterous !!
He should get that in writing and shout it from the rooftops. 
Sexual discrimination of that sort is unacceptable (unless you're a man).


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## truthseeker (7 Feb 2012)

Pique318 said:


> That's preposterous !!
> He should get that in writing and shout it from the rooftops.
> Sexual discrimination of that sort is unacceptable (unless you're a man).



Im surprised youre the only person who picked up on that. Yes, its preposterous - and illegal.

He isnt bothered taking it further (he knows he could sue the guy and probably win), but he says that the job really isnt worth it (the salary was practically minimum wage), they seemed unprofessional anyway because when he arrived for interview the guy told him 'oh I forgot you were coming in' and the comment was made in the context of consoling him for not getting the job, as in "seriously, everything about you as a candidate was wonderful - its not you, its the other person in the office, she wanted to work with a woman, you know yourself *har de har man to man you know yourself these bloody women*"

*the bit in between the asterixes was made up by me


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## bullbars (9 Feb 2012)

I read the story linked below and it reminded me of this thread; 
http://www.independent.ie/national-...aim-disability-allowance-3012735.html?start=2

I would like to see some sort of means testing for what is being claimed. (I'm aware that the story is liknked to the UK, but I'm sure similiar occurs in Ireland)


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## Chris (10 Feb 2012)

The_Banker said:


> Would you apply this to someone who was laid off after 25 years of working for a company who went to the wall during the financial crisis and paid his/her PAYE taxes and PRSI social insurance over those 25 years?


The problem is that the person who worked for 25 years paid into a ponzi scheme. He didn't pay into a fund or had some of his contributions set aside. He paid for other people's welfare payments at the time. It is the system that is in place that needs a complete overhaul.



Liamos said:


> Does anyone disagree with the notion that anyone who is capable of working should be made work for their dole?
> 
> I hear all the time that the dole is too high and is a discouragement to find a job. Also people on the dole would rather be working.
> 
> Well, why not make it compulsory for people to get out of their beds at least 3 mornings per week and earn their dole?


They introduced such a system in Germany a good few years ago and not surprisingly it resulted in lots of people returning to work at wages they otherwise would not have accepted. It also got people off their backsides and got unskilled people into at least some sort of job where they could learn something. However, as Firefly points out this would require a large amount of bureaucracy, which would take too long to put in place given the problems that Ireland is facing.



Firefly said:


> I couldn't see it working in the manner you have outlined. It would need oversight and a layer of bureaucracy and it would be a field day for the PC brigade. Quite simply I think it would fall apart as it would look like slave labour. A much better way IMO is to ensure that you are always better off working for the minimum wage than staying at home.



I think that this would be the better approach for Ireland as it is something that can be quickly implemented without the need for more bureaucracy. For Ireland the biggest problem is that people get more through welfare than through the minimum wage and they get this indefinitely. This means that there is exactly zero incentive to learn anything or take any kind of job.
There should also be a limit to the length of time you can receive payments. I think someone posted here before about Switzerland where after 18 months you get nothing from the state. After that you have to go to family and community charities, and yet Switzerland is not exactly known for hordes of families sleeping under bridges and begging for scraps of food. Government welfare increases and encourages poverty, it is not the solution to it.


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## DB74 (10 Feb 2012)

Chris said:


> I think someone posted here before about Switzerland where after 18 months you get nothing from the state. After that you have to go to family and community charities, and yet Switzerland is not exactly known for hordes of families sleeping under bridges and begging for scraps of food. Government welfare increases and encourages poverty, it is not the solution to it.



Yet Switzerland sees fit to hold its first ever National Conference on Poverty less than 18 months ago

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_n...have_a_real_poverty_problem.html?cid=28787926


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## Chris (17 Feb 2012)

DB74 said:


> Yet Switzerland sees fit to hold its first ever National Conference on Poverty less than 18 months ago
> 
> http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_n...have_a_real_poverty_problem.html?cid=28787926



You're hardly trying to say that the claim of one catholic charity, with a vested interest to exaggerate poverty, provides any reliable facts? The definition of poverty is also completely meaningless, Caritas defines poverty here: http://www.caritas-europa.org/module/FileLib/PovertyhasfacesinEuropeweb.pdf


> Statistically, people are considered to be living below the poverty line when their income is less than 50% of the median disposable income in the country.


But this is completely meaningless. You could be living in splendour if the average wage was €100,000, but still be classed as living in poverty. Using this definition poverty will never decline, which of course is convenient for organizations looking for state funding.

I've been to Switzerland, and one thing I noticed was the lack of homeless people begging (of which I saw none) and the usual signs of poverty common in large cities. Doesn't mean that there is none, but it is far less than other countries.


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