# 1st  floor extension over existing rooms



## peelabee (26 Sep 2010)

hi guys,
Hope you can help.  We live in a four bed semi (end of row, corner site).  Having asked architect for some ideas to change layout and maybe extend, he is eager for us not to extend over the existing 2 rooms at ground floor level as "taking the roof off will be BIG money".  I don't know what BIG money is and am wondering if anyone can shed some light.  

Foundations were laid to support a first floor extension at the time of building.  The attic is converted.  My own plan would be to extend partially over the downstairs rooms not a carbon copy upstairs (too blocky I think).

Many thanks for any and all advice,
Peelabee


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## onq (27 Sep 2010)

Hi peelabee,

Your information appears to be too limited to give detailed opinions or advice about what you're doing.
Lots of questions arise that need to be answered first, for example; -

Firstly, the roof is the least of the issues that can arise, and I would raise the following queries in relation to the design of the existing works:


How do you know the foundations are adequately sized to take a first floor extension?
How do you know the walls are built adequately plumb and wide enough to take a first floor extension?
Were the foundations designed to have a slip joint suitable for a single storey building or were they drilled and bolted enough to take a second storey without excessive settlement?
If they were bolted, was the joint existing extension walling similarly secured?
Was the ground supporting the furthest wall properly compacted, tamped and prepared to prevent settlement and rotation about the joint = otherwise you'll get cracks when you build?
Was an engineer involved making these comments, was it a builder, is this your own opinion?
Is the roof of the existing extension flat, and if so were timbers of the existing flat extension sized to be 1st floor joists - if not you'll need to replace them and/or add new properly sized ones?
Secondly, the design of the proposed works:


 Have you actually appointed your architect - if so he should be in a position to answer all your questions?
 Have you had him draw up plans for the extension over the ground floor rooms - whatever incarnation of spaces you desire?
Have you had an engineer check the drawings and propose a competent structural solution?
If you have these drawings have you gone out to minimum three builders for prices?
All that having been adequately answered, if you don't extend out the full way on the first floor, you will have to hold back a wall or two from the edge and these will probably need beam supports underneath, either in the walls or using a column or columns internally.
Unless you masterplanned this from the start to allow for an agreed first floor extension - and stick to what was agreed back then - it is unlikely that your existing ground floor has point supports for beams in exactly the right location to support the wall(s) position(s).
Anything other than a full perimeter extension will probably need to have this beam in place.
Even the full perimeter extension may require remedial work to the walling to help carry this load to ground perhaps involving provision of additional lateral support.
Ddon't just assume a ring beam will carry the load - ring beams with too much steel can lead to differential expansion and cracking.
Do get this all this structural work checked by an engineer.

New work needs to comply with Part L of the building regulations as well as the other eleven regulations.
Given your existing extensions, you may need planning permission.
Corner houses in particular need careful handling if the house isn't to look terrible with a blank gable.
It will need windows ti "lighten" the look of it and these will usually need planning permission.

There is a lot ot consier here, and a lot to do once you've considered it all.
The Askaboutmoney website isn't the place to undertake detail design.
You need to appoint a building professional and move forward.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon              as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal      action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in              Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the      matters    at      hand.


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## val1 (27 Sep 2010)

can anyone tell me the "greenest" way to put in a septic tank i am opening a residential public building and want to go as green as possible i hear i can have a filteration system put in but only one man in ireland does this! we will be having 15 wetrooms with toilet also large amount of laundrey thanks val


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## RKQ (27 Sep 2010)

val1 said:


> can anyone tell me the "greenest" way to put in a septic tank i am opening a residential public building


 
It depends on the soil type on your site. A septic tank is acceptable to EPA Guidelines in well draining soils. Retain professional advice - most Councils now have a panel of FAS trained Soil Suitability Testers.

Reedbed filtration is internationally recognised as a very green alternative. The EPA is very interested in this natural system. Certification of a natural plant ecosystem can be difficult - afterall its a living entity.

Well done for considering your treatment options at such an early stage.


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## peelabee (27 Sep 2010)

Hi ONQ.  Thanks for your reply.  The side "extension" was built at the time of the original house (I know that it's not an extension, but it is an extra compared to the other houses in the estate).  The previous owners have advised us that the builder put in suitable foundations to  support first floor extension - I presume an engineer can confirm this?  I don't know any of the technical details I'm afraid.

We have appointed an architect but I'm a bit confused about the way things work.  He seemed reluctant to design first floor ext.  Does the architect or engineer figure these things out?

Am I right in thinking that going out all the way over the ground floor ext would be simpler/cheaper than partially?  When you recommend getting a professional to move forward, is that an architect or engineer or other?

I apologise for these vague, stupid questions but I really feel very naive in this situation.

Many thanks,
Peelabee


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## RKQ (27 Sep 2010)

peelabee said:


> We have appointed an architect but I'm a bit confused about the way things work. He seemed reluctant to design first floor ext. Does the architect or engineer figure these things out?


Why is your Architect reluctant to follow your brief?
The Architect can design the extension, pointing out "beam to Structural Engineers drawing" on his / her drawing. 

Once planning permission is granted, you the Client can retain a Structural Engineer to provide any neccessary beam, column, foundation or roof calculations, specifications or drawing details.

The Architect will then reference these Engineers details in his / her Construction Drawings, which will form the basis of the Tender Documents. At least three Building Contractors will be invited to Tender / quote for the project.

In reality your Architect should explain all of this to you. Especially his / her concerns about  designing your extension over the 1st floor.


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## peelabee (27 Sep 2010)

Many thanks RKQ.  I appreciate your help.
Peelabee


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## onq (27 Sep 2010)

+1 what RKQ has said.

I'm sorry if this gives offence, but I find it hard to believe that you are actually dealing with an architect, or even someone who knows what an engineer does, peelabee, for the reason given below.
Most small firms would be rubbing their hands with glee at the thought that you were making this into a more substantial project, not trying to warn you off doing it.
The first thing I would do is challenge your architect and ask him to show you what he's got.
The measures below are all after the fact, but better late than never.

Ask him whether he is; -


Qualified
Unqualified
Registered
Unregistered
If he's unregistered, ask him what years of experience he has.

In terms of certificates being accepted by the Incorporated Law Sociaty, he will normally require to have 10 years in practice providing services commensurate with an architect.
Whatever he is, ask to see examples of his work and ask for confirmation that he is carrying professional indemnity cover.
If these questions aren't getting the right answers, you should dismiss him and appoint a competent architect to carry out this work.

In terms of the foundations, you may need to open up a trial pit at the corner of the side bay and expose the rising wall and the foundation to see both the width of the strip and the depth of it.
An engineer is the most suitable to comment on structural matters, although a competent architect may be acceptable on small works like this.
Personally, for the relatively small fees involved, I would request the client to retain a structural/civil engineer as well as someone like me.

Hope this helps.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon               as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal       action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the       matters    at      hand.


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## val1 (27 Sep 2010)

thank you for your reply i have called my engineer and talked to him about it and he feels the soil could be just right and he called a freind in mayo co council who is familier with the area who agreed with him and we can now start with a test!! im very excited! could i just ask you one more question? .... i would like someone like an enviromentelist or some one that knows how to run a big building the best "green" way eg rainwater harvisting, soler pannels, recycling ect... but anyone on the net seems to cost loads of money just to look at it and i must raise three hundred thousand euro in order to get the loan to open so im a bit straped is there a goverment agency or volenteer group that will help me out that will also give me the best advice? or would it be better just to pay? val


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## RKQ (28 Sep 2010)

val1 said:


> i would like someone like an enviromentelist or some one that knows how to run a big building the best "green" way eg rainwater harvisting, soler pannels, recycling ect... but anyone on the net seems to cost loads of money .......is there a goverment agency or volenteer group that will help me out that will also give me the best advice? or would it be better just to pay?


 You are very welcome Val.

I'm not aware of a specific Govenment Dept as such. SEI might be able to help with insulation levels and renewable energy advice. They do have commercial grants for certain projects.

There is lots of information available to help you do your homework and make decisions that are right for you. There is the net and forums like this, Sustainable building expo at RDS, etc. There are volunteer groups in Wales & Scotland that live in sustainable communities. They run courses and offer advice based on their experiences.

Good luck, sounds like an interesting project.


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## val1 (29 Sep 2010)

hi again and thanks again. i contacted the SEI for advice and grant aid and i canot get grant aid unless the premisis is up and running stupid isnt it!! they said if i put in all the old forms of heat, sewer ect they will give me aid to change it to eco friendly would you beleive that!! it makes no sense!! anyway if i cant get aid i will just pay for it myself. the engineer i am working with said he will get it all done for me and put it all in the plans so when i get my funding for opening the building it will go under that the business is an addiction treatment hospital and we are even having our own veg and fruit gardens with chickins for eggs and gardening classes when premisis is finished i will invite you to mayo to view it as you seem to be very interested in all this kind of stuff and if you come you might learn somthing new to bring into your own buseness or work i will keep you informed as to how things are going along we hope to open in about 12 months i must look up them volunteer groups in scotland and wales they sound interesting and i can send my garder for the course as i am getting 100% funnding for training god bless and thanks again val


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