# Is evidence of your PPS number a requirement when opening an account?



## Laramie (13 Jun 2019)

Under Money Laundering regulations I am asked to produce photographic I.D. and address I.D.  I understand this.

I am also being asked for my PPS number.

I was opening an account recently in a Stockbrokers and I was asked for proof of my PPS number. A photocopy was then taken of the document I showed.

Is it a requirement that the institution take a copy of this item as well as photo and address I.D.?


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## RedOnion (13 Jun 2019)

It's a complicated thing. The PPS has nothing to do with AML, but with Revenue. The institution must make every effort to collect your PPSN, and also ask for proof of it. When they submit their returns to Revenue they have to include the PPSN if they have it, and include an indicator to say if the PPSN was validated.


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## TrundleAlong (13 Jun 2019)

RedOnion said:


> It's a complicated thing. The PPS has nothing to do with AML, but with Revenue. The institution must make every effort to collect your PPSN, and also ask for proof of it. When they submit their returns to Revenue they have to include the PPSN if they have it, and include an indicator to say if the PPSN was validated.


I recently opened an account with a Building Society and was told that giving my PPS number was optional.

Whatever about giving your PPS number as in putting the number on the application form, I am not sure that it has to be verified by the institution taking it. Maybe they do, but sight of the document should be enough. Whether they are required to take a photocopy of the document is another thing.


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## RedOnion (13 Jun 2019)

TrundleAlong said:


> I recently opened an account with a Building Society and was told that giving my PPS number was optional.


Was it an interest earning account? You don't have to provide it, but under legislation the building society must ask you for it.



TrundleAlong said:


> I am not sure that it has to be verified by the institution taking it


Again, there is legislation about this. It's quite clear.


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## Gorteen (6 Sep 2019)

Am I the only one who doesn't mind when I'm asked for PPS number?


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## Drakon (6 Sep 2019)

Gorteen said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't mind when I'm asked for PPS number?


No, but you’re one of the few. We Irish are exceptionally anal about giving our PPS numbers. We hold them as closely guarded secrets. I’m not sure why. 

That and our bank account details when someone genuine needs to pay us money.


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## Steven Barrett (6 Sep 2019)

Drakon said:


> No, but you’re one of the few. We Irish are exceptionally anal about giving our PPS numbers. We hold them as closely guarded secrets. I’m not sure why.
> 
> That and our bank account details when someone genuine needs to pay us money.



Especially when we are so willing to give information about every aspect of our lives to Google, Facebook etc. 

And while Google knows where we go and what we spend our money on, the Revenue know where your savings are. Governments all around the world share information of account holders and the PPS number is the identifier. The Revenue knows if you have a bank account in France, because the French bank has told them. Financial institutions hear have also disclosed accounts you have with them. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Ravima (7 Sep 2019)

If in doubt, tell the truth and be honest!


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## Namehere (11 Sep 2019)

SBarrett said:


> Especially when we are so willing to give information about every aspect of our lives to Google, Facebook etc.
> 
> And while Google knows where we go and what we spend our money on, the Revenue know where your savings are. Governments all around the world share information of account holders and *the PPS number is the identifier*. The Revenue knows if you have a bank account in France, because the French bank has told them. Financial institutions hear have also disclosed accounts you have with them.
> 
> ...


But it shouldn't be the identifier, they should be using unique identifiers. Be honest, how would you like a private organisation being provided with your name and PPS number? People really have no idea where a PPS number will end up when they hand them out.


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## Bronte (11 Sep 2019)

Namehere said:


> But it shouldn't be the identifier, they should be using unique identifiers. Be honest, how would you like a private organisation being provided with your name and PPS number? People really have no idea where a PPS number will end up when they hand them out.


Well I have my tenant's past and present pps numbers. I also give it to any state organisation that requests it. Like HAB.  And the tenant supplies the HAB with their own PPS number. The HAB office even managed to send my annual Certificate of Tax deducted to another landlord who duly sent it to his accountant. It has our names, addresses and one of our PPS's numbers. Plus how much HAP paid us.  After that error the local council sent me a letter telling under GDPR that they had done the error.


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## Bronte (11 Sep 2019)

SBarrett said:


> The Revenue knows if you have a bank account in France, because the French bank has told them. Financial institutions hear have also disclosed accounts you have with them.



My Ulster bank sends me every odd year or so some document that I'm to fill out so they can comply with revenue about where I am resident.  I now just bin it.  Something to do with money laundering I believe.  Revenue and the Bank both know exactly where we are.  Pointless bureaucracy.


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## Peanuts20 (11 Sep 2019)

Banks have a legal obligation under the Criminal Justice Act to identify their customers. Hence the need for ID. They also have a right to ask for a PPS number as part of identifying the beneficial owner of an account or where tax relief could potentially be claimed. 

They also have obligations under "know your customer" requirements to keep this information up to date

By binning the forms, you run the risk of some computer in the future deciding your transactions are suspicious and rejecting them. It does happen


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## Bronte (12 Sep 2019)

Peanuts20 said:


> By binning the forms, you run the risk of some computer in the future deciding your transactions are suspicious and rejecting them. It does happen



You have me terrified now. LOL.  I don't see anything happening with my continental bank account in our name having transfers to our Irish Ulster bank account in our names ever.  Or vice versa What exactly would either bank reject.  And if they did so what.  I got a letter from Ulster the other day because they couldn't contact me by SMS. (some security issue and it's not the first time) And in that letter they told me they could only accept an Irish phone number, which I don't have.  This is despite the fact that Ulster have my continental phone number.  

When they tightened up security due to the Central bank for the online stuff in the last month or so I called telephone banking for two new card reader as I couldn't find ours. (I have found both since).  Guy on phone says he can send one for me but not my husband because he asked me was my husband beside me to order one for himself.  How stupid is that. And I told him so. It's only a plastic machine not linked to security at all.  Guy on phone tells me that when he now was ordering one for me he sees in system that one is already ordered (as I'd phoned up earlier to try and connect with an Irish branch to find out if they might have a card reader in stock, no was the answer, but they were wrong !) So fine I says now you've ordered me one and there's one already ordered today in the system and you don't have to order one now for hubby as two will be coming. Guy on helplink reckoned one might cancel the other. I got two then a week later. Meanwhile my husband happened to be in Ireland and I got him to go into a bank and actually did have one (I said get two) but one he got. So now we've 5 between the pair of us though only I use them.  Don't talk to me about banks and computers says no.


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## Bronte (12 Sep 2019)

Of course if I were a lesbian couple I wouldn't run into so many problems as I could just ring up as my other half when they ask for him.  That's probably advantageous discrimination.  As in presumation based on voice that one is female and one is the other person. I heard the same nonsense about GDRP in relation to one part of a couple dealing with all the invoices/bills/admin and VHI now saying we can't discuss anything with you due to GDRP.  

Amex is great though. Hubby was able to 'authorise' me on that so he doesn't ever have to speak to them.  I reckon they brought in that years ago due to wives trying to check up on their husband's credit card bills !


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## Steven Barrett (12 Sep 2019)

Bronte said:


> My Ulster bank sends me every odd year or so some document that I'm to fill out so they can comply with revenue about where I am resident.  I now just bin it.  Something to do with money laundering I believe.  Revenue and the Bank both know exactly where we are.  Pointless bureaucracy.



Banks have to keep them up to date. 

When setting up self directed pensions, clients have to provide a copy of passport/ driving licence. When their ID expires, they have to submit a new copy. It's a huge inconvenience to law abiding citizens but given the amount of money laundering that goes on, it's a necessary hassle.


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## Steven Barrett (12 Sep 2019)

Namehere said:


> But it shouldn't be the identifier, they should be using unique identifiers. Be honest, how would you like a private organisation being provided with your name and PPS number? People really have no idea where a PPS number will end up when they hand them out.



It honestly doesn't bother me. Just back from the dentist and had to give them my PPS number to claim the free check up. Gave it out the other day too but can't remember what for   

As a financial planner, we deal with people's financial details, their health, their aspirations and their fears. All records are kept securely and not disclosed to anyone that they shouldn't be disclosed to. 


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie


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## Bronte (12 Sep 2019)

SBarrett said:


> Banks have to keep them up to date.
> 
> When setting up self directed pensions, clients have to provide a copy of passport/ driving licence. When their ID expires, they have to submit a new copy. It's a huge inconvenience to law abiding citizens but given the amount of money laundering that goes on, it's a necessary hassle.


That's the nub of it Steven.  We get to do all this paperwork and we mostly comply. But I don't believe for one minutes it stops the money launderers.  Here my bank knows when our ID expires and we have to put our new one in the bank machine and that sorts out everything.  Banks know everything about you with that simple act.  All dealings with civil servants, they just pop in my ID card and it's generally as simple as that to get whatever you need done.


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## EmmDee (12 Sep 2019)

Bronte said:


> That's the nub of it Steven.  We get to do all this paperwork and we mostly comply. But I don't believe for one minutes it stops the money launderers.  Here my bank knows when our ID expires and we have to put our new one in the bank machine and that sorts out everything.  Banks know everything about you with that simple act.  All dealings with civil servants, they just pop in my ID card and it's generally as simple as that to get whatever you need done.



A National ID card would simplify things but there is a lack of public support for it in Ireland - a cultural thing I guess.

Just FYI - when you put your card in the bank machine to refresh it, you are actually giving them all the info you were complaining about (the equivalent of the PPS)


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## Namehere (12 Sep 2019)

SBarrett said:


> It honestly doesn't bother me. Just back from the dentist and had to give them my PPS number to claim the free check up. Gave it out the other day too but can't remember what for
> 
> As a financial planner, we deal with people's financial details, their health, their aspirations and their fears. All records are kept securely and not disclosed to anyone that they shouldn't be disclosed to.
> 
> ...


That’s where your assumptions falls down though - you say it’s not disclosed to anyone that it shouldn’t. I work in an industry where personal data is needed on a daily basis and I have seen multiple occasions even post GDPR, where I ask for one thing - and the person sending just gives me a dump of information 99% of which I don’t need and about 90% of which if people knew it was being handed out they wouldn’t be happy.


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## Bronte (12 Sep 2019)

EmmDee said:


> Just FYI - when you put your card in the bank machine to refresh it, you are actually giving them all the info you were complaining about (the equivalent of the PPS)


That wasn't my issue, it's the needless paperwork. I've zero problem doing it electronically etc.  Just can't be bothered form filling and sending it off every year or so.  Fully know the benefits of an ID card.  Even our children have them.


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## Bronte (12 Sep 2019)

Namehere said:


> That’s where your assumptions falls down though - you say it’s not disclosed to anyone that it shouldn’t. I work in an industry where personal data is needed on a daily basis and I have seen multiple occasions even post GDPR, where I ask for one thing - and the person sending just gives me a dump of information 99% of which I don’t need and about 90% of which if people knew it was being handed out they wouldn’t be happy.


It's all very well for you to make that claim. But you didn't back it up.  A concrete example would be helpfu, and there is no need for you to reveal your industry.  

As for getting too much information, I sent off HAP forms and proofs the other day, the lady in the office couldn't believe I could be so efficient at sending her what she needed (I'd already been thru it you see). But I find most of the time they get the wrong information is because civil servants etc lay out forms way too complicated and then blame the entire population for supplying the wrong information because we are idiots.


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## Namehere (12 Sep 2019)

Bronte said:


> It's all very well for you to make that claim. But you didn't back it up.  A concrete example would be helpfu, and there is no need for you to reveal your industry.
> 
> As for getting too much information, I sent off HAP forms and proofs the other day, the lady in the office couldn't believe I could be so efficient at sending her what she needed (I'd already been thru it you see). But I find most of the time they get the wrong information is because civil servants etc lay out forms way too complicated and then blame the entire population for supplying the wrong information because we are idiots.



So for what I was doing I requested the salaries of one section of workforce - maybe 100 people - what I got was a dump of files for about 1100 employees - names/salaries over 3 years/marital status addresses/PPS next of kin information. I went back to the person who sent it to me and said that i only need one section to which they replied - their systems can’t split by section and can I not just filter the information myself.


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## SoylentGreen (13 Sep 2019)

Bronte said:


> When they tightened up security due to the Central bank for the online stuff in the last month or so I called telephone banking for two new card reader as I couldn't find ours.


I don't have "cards". I call in to my Ulster Bank once a month and do a few counter transactions. My local Credit Union is my ATM service. 
 Any how I needed to transfer about €200 to a bank account overseas to secure a rental apartment for next summer. My Ulster Bank triumphantly told me that I had to have a card to do this transaction. I am not sure why as I just access my account at the counter by providing the cashier with my account number.  After telling me that they couldn't do the transaction they looked at the balance in my current account and decide that they could in fact do the transaction without a card.
To stop future hassle we ordered two cards. I now have two cards with pin numbers that I will forget and I also have to find somewhere secure in the house to store these.


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