# speeding fine, 68 in 60km zone within 100m of speed change sign



## some1gr8 (30 May 2012)

Hi Guys

I got speeding fine today for doing 68 in 60km zone on chapelizod bypass near palmerstown.  I was driving from city centre to Palmerston,Garda van was parked beside patrol station with in approx. 100m of speed change sign (from 80 to 60km).   it is obvious that its money making scam and i was reducing my speed from 80km to 60km. they can hardly expect that you will reduce speed with in a second.  it takes time for u to see sign and then reduce speed.

I am thinking of letting it go to court.  What are my chances for success?????

Thanks


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## roker (30 May 2012)

If the gun is looking down the road, how do they know the exact point that you past the speed sign?


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## Time (30 May 2012)

Waste of time going to court on these.

You should be at 60 when you arrive at the sign. There is no grace distance.


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## some1gr8 (30 May 2012)

Time said:


> Waste of time going to court on these.
> 
> You should be at 60 when you arrive at the sign. There is no grace distance.


 I wish i had crystal ball telling me that there is sign on next bend and i should reduce my speed.....


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## STEINER (31 May 2012)

I've seen gardai with speed guns there many a time.  Lots of drivers do 100km/h to 120 plus  on the chapelizod bypass heading into town and coming around the bend to that esso station in palmerstown.

Also they pull in the drivers who misuse the bus lane.  I have been on that road hundreds of times, and there is sufficient time to reduce speed to 60 km/h.  If a first time driver drives there, he/she should observe the road signage.

While you are not much over the limit, there is no defence in court to this, 68 > 60.

We never exceed the limits there, not worth the hassle.


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## Niallman (31 May 2012)

Yup, I was done there too on a saturday morning. I could see the camera flashing at cars but thought I was in the 80 zone so kept on at 80. Doh. It was like shooting fish in a barrel there. Handy little earner for them. 
Bugs the hell out of me now though when I routinely see people zooming past at 100+


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## werner (31 May 2012)

Niallman said:


> Yup, I was done there too on a saturday morning. I could see the camera flashing at cars but thought I was in the 80 zone so kept on at 80. Doh. It was like shooting fish in a barrel there. Handy little earner for them.
> Bugs the hell out of me now though when I routinely see people zooming past at 100+


 
The other area that they shoot fish in a barrel is along the Stillorgan dual carraigeway under the bridge at UCD. The road is a downwarsd incline so if a car is travelling within the correct speed limit as they approach it and they do not ease off the accelerator, due to rolling downhill an average car will pick up speed and then they are clocked for a fine.

Cynical money grabbing exercises like you mention are a total disgrace as they do nothing to increase safety for road users.

The Gardai need to be instructed by the public as to where to place speed traps that are relevant e.g. outside of schools, on areas with high fatality rates etc and not to cynically abuse the public trust by being revenue raisers and to make their entrapment figures look good for the Minister


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## RonanC (31 May 2012)

This section of road has always puzzled me. The 60kph speed signs are partially hidden behind a tree and in bushes on both sides of the roads and also just on the bend in the road and where a filter lane which becomes a bus lane merges with the main N4. In my opinion this is an incorrect placement for speed signs as your concentration at this section of road is on the merging traffic and on the bend.

Depending on the placement of the Garda speed van, I would be objecting to the fine. This section of road is 80kph and if you are not familiar with the positioning of the 60kph speed signs and as they are partially obscured you can easily miss them. The road does not change in any way apart from an approach to traffic lights which is about 500m further up the road. 

https://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&l...NJR8KYVU6uaq_q2FWFekTg&cbp=12,331.92,,0,-5.82

https://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&l...vx4G73Pt5zDS-i-oumczKA&cbp=12,310.05,,0,-0.18

https://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&l...=vx4G73Pt5zDS-i-oumczKA&cbp=12,325.12,,2,2.27


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## Time (31 May 2012)

The only objecting you can do is in court. Where you no doubt will end up having to appeal to the circuit court as I doubt a district court judge is willing to put an end to this particular money making racket.


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## Frank (31 May 2012)

No doubt some condescending poster will throw out the standard if you were not   speeding then no points pretty soon.

Please don't bother.

This makes a mockery of the whole safety camera sham.

Impossible to respect underhanded cash cow moves like this.

Safety cameras my eye.


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## gianni (31 May 2012)

werner said:


> The Gardai need to be instructed by the public as to where to place speed traps that are relevant...



I think I would rather the current situation i.e. empirical research, using extensive data, was undertaken to identify areas that were most prone to collisions due to speed. This research is the basis for deciding the camera locations.



Having said that the siting of speed limit signage in Palmerstown is a totally separate issue.


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## dereko1969 (1 Jun 2012)

gianni said:


> I think I would rather the current situation i.e. empirical research, using extensive data, was undertaken to identify areas that were most prone to collisions due to speed. This research is the basis for deciding the camera locations.
> 
> 
> 
> Having said that the siting of speed limit signage in Palmerstown is a totally separate issue.


 
That's for the GoSafe cameras not the ones being discussed here. I'm totally on board with the GoSafe camera which as you say have been placed on the basis of empirical data, however these ones are the shooting fish in the barrel type that really annoy people.

I know in France they always give you advance warning of a change in the speed limit so that you can slow down (or speed up), I really can't understand why that can't be done here.


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## Time (1 Jun 2012)

It would cost them a fortune in signs for starters. Also it would end their revenue gathering ahem road safety activities.


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## gianni (1 Jun 2012)

dereko1969 said:


> That's for the GoSafe cameras not the ones being discussed here...



I stand corrected.


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## tinkerbell (3 Jun 2012)

You should complain about the location of the van if it really was just inside the first speed sign for 60km and it was unreasonable to have achieved 60 in such a short area?  Or was it just a reminder sign for an earlier sign for 60km you missed?    Phone the number in Thurles to find out how to lodge a complaint.


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## Time (3 Jun 2012)

The only avenue of complaint is the court.


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## putsch (3 Jun 2012)

When I saw the title of the post I wondered if I had started the thread myself!

Exactly the same thing happened to me a few months ago in the very same spot and for the same reason. I was raging to get caught like that - I used to travel that road a lot and had been aware of the scam but hadn't come by there in a few years and had forgotten the sign - when I saw it I tried to slow down in time but with another car up my This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language I couldn't without causing an accident. I paid the fine and got the points - sick to my stomach! I'd loved to see this racket stopped.

I go under the Belfield bridge nearly every day and every day there's some cute hoor flashing me and pulling out to over or undertake cos I keep to 60 kph...........Crazy....


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## some1gr8 (4 Jun 2012)

tinkerbell said:


> You should complain about the location of the van if it really was just inside the first speed sign for 60km and it was unreasonable to have achieved 60 in such a short area?  Or was it just a reminder sign for an earlier sign for 60km you missed?    Phone the number in Thurles to find out how to lodge a complaint.




It wasn't a reminder, speed limit changed from 80 to 60..........  Would anybody have detail etc on how to make a complain............


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## RonanC (4 Jun 2012)

some1gr8 said:


> It wasn't a reminder, speed limit changed from 80 to 60..........  Would anybody have detail etc on how to make a complain............



It has been mentioned many times how to complain.

In Court


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## tinkerbell (4 Jun 2012)

You can of course appeal it before it goes to court.   Phone the number in thurles.  They wlll direct you to write to the district from where the garda was based (possibly traffic corps?) and ask them to check up on the exact location,  location of speed signs, etc.  I know someone who had passed 3 60km signs and was caught speeding but was convinced they were still in the 80km when caught simply because they never noticed what the signs actually said!


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## Time (4 Jun 2012)

> You can of course appeal it before it goes to court.


The law does not provide for such appeals.


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## tinkerbell (5 Jun 2012)

OP should phone the number on the notice and state they wish to appeal.   Errors can be made with signs, bye laws, etc. and the only way to know is to confirm all was correct is from those who issue the notice.


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## Latrade (5 Jun 2012)

some1gr8 said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I got speeding fine today for doing 68 in 60km zone on chapelizod bypass near palmerstown. I was driving from city centre to Palmerston,Garda van was parked beside patrol station with in approx. 100m of speed change sign (from 80 to 60km). it is obvious that its money making scam and i was reducing my speed from 80km to 60km. they can hardly expect that you will reduce speed with in a second. it takes time for u to see sign and then reduce speed.
> 
> ...


 
The distance of the van from the sign is irrelevant as the sign indicates the point at which the speed limit changes. So they could be parked on top of the sign if they wished.

Your only real hope of appeal as others have said is in the courts. You would have no grounds arguing the position of the van as being unreasonable however. Your only very slim chance would be to identify the very first point at which the 60Km/hr sign is visible to a driver, measure that distance to the location of the sign and with the assistance of a copy of NRA standards, European Standards and hiring an independent roads engineer look at whether or not that is a reasonable distance to safely reduce speed from 80 to 60 on first seeing the sign.

You never know, you may well be right and onto a winner with that argument. However, you will not win any appeal at all based upon where the van was parked once it is passed the sign.


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## Time (5 Jun 2012)

tinkerbell said:


> OP should phone the number on the notice and state they wish to appeal.   Errors can be made with signs, bye laws, etc. and the only way to know is to confirm all was correct is from those who issue the notice.



They are hardly going to admit anything wrong. Some people are very naive. I used to issue 100's of "Your appeal has been unsuccessful if you feel aggrieved go to court" letters each week. It was absolutely routine procedure to deny anything wrong.

The only way of knowing is go look at the Bye Laws yourself.


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## tinkerbell (6 Jun 2012)

I am not very naive at all!   I know that if someone rings the number in Thurles, they will be directed to contact the Supt. at the issuing station to make their appeal.   There every single appeal *should *be viewed by the senior officer and if any grounds are evident that the notice may be incorrect and fail in court, it will be terminated.    If where Time worked routinely issued routine letters to the taxpayers who finance An Garda Siochana, without checking the issues raised, that is an absolute disgrace.


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## Brendan Burgess (6 Jun 2012)

some1gr8 said:


> I got speeding fine today for doing 68 in 60km zone on chapelizod bypass near palmerstown....
> 
> i was reducing my speed from 80km to 60km. they can hardly expect that you will reduce speed with in a second.  it takes time for u to see sign and then reduce speed.
> 
> ...



I think that the judge may well ask you 



> Mr SomGreat, may I ask if that was the first time you were on this particular road?


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## Purple (6 Jun 2012)

some1gr8 said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I got speeding fine today for doing 68 in 60km zone on chapelizod bypass near palmerstown. I was driving from city centre to Palmerston,Garda van was parked beside patrol station with in approx. 100m of speed change sign (from 80 to 60km). it is obvious that its money making scam and i was reducing my speed from 80km to 60km. they can hardly expect that you will reduce speed with in a second. it takes time for u to see sign and then reduce speed.
> 
> ...


Pay the fine. It's not worth the fight, even if you did win.


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## Time (6 Jun 2012)

As you can't get costs out of the Gardaí it is only worth fighting on principle.


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