# Tesco credit card processed direct debit on 24th Dec for a 29th Dec payment due date



## poolfan (18 Jan 2014)

I pay the balance of my credit card in full every month

The credit card balance was due to be taken on 29th of december

The credit card company tried to take the payment on the 24th of december, 

I didnt have the necessary amount in the account at the time, so the payment bounced and I have been charged interest

Do I have fall back the fact that they tried to take the payment early?


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jan 2014)

Where does it say that the paymente date is 29th Dec? On the November  statement, I presume.  They should not have tried to take it out on  24th.  

Which bank was it? 

Does each bank have the same payment date for all its customers? If so, others may have been affected by this?

If you paid the balance in full quickly, they will usually waive the interest if you ask them.


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## poolfan (18 Jan 2014)

Yeah it said it on the november statement

Its tesco credit card and ptsb


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## DublinTexas (18 Jan 2014)

The 29th was a Sunday, so the money would have been taken on the last business day before that, however due to the "bank holidays" over Christmas the last bank working day before Sunday 29th was Tuesday 24th because banks did not open on 25/26/27.

So you bank took the money on the correct day even if that is just another example how funny the Irish system is.


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## poolfan (18 Jan 2014)

Yeah credit card company ( tesco) said they tried to take payment on 29th

It looks like the issue is on the bank side due to the christmas

Is it just the Irish system that is like this or all over europe


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## DMcL1971 (18 Jan 2014)

Poolfan,

For the last ten years I have been in charge of submitting DD files to the bank for the company I worked for.

If I were you I would formally complain to Tesco. I don't believe that what they are telling you is the truth.

The normal procedure for all direct debits is that a bill is issued to you by the originator (Tesco in your case). The payment date is specified by Tesco on the bill. This is a notification to you to inform you that you need to have sufficient funds in your account on that day. The originator will then request the bank to take the money from your account on that date. If the date is not a bank working day then the bank will take the payment on the next bank working day after that date. The DD originator is not allowed to specify a date to the bank which is earlier than the day of which they have notified you.

The originator chooses the date and the bank processes payment either on that date or on the next bank working date. If the DD was taken early it was because Tesco told the bank to take it early.

I would complain to Tesco and report them to IPSO.


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## DMcL1971 (18 Jan 2014)

The person you spoke to in Tesco is just going to say they tried to take the money on the 29th because that is what is printed on the bill. They have no idea what date the IT department were instructed to put on the file that was actually sent to the bank.


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## DMcL1971 (18 Jan 2014)

In all the years I processed DD's I often saw the money being taken from a customers account a few days after the date we had specified. This was due to a bank being a bit slow or having internal problems. But I never once saw a DD being processed earlier than the date specified even on bank holidays.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jan 2014)

DublinTexas said:


> The 29th was a Sunday, so the money would have been taken on the last business day before that, however due to the "bank holidays" over Christmas the last bank working day before Sunday 29th was Tuesday 24th because banks did not open on 25/26/27.
> 
> So you bank took the money on the correct day even if that is just another example how funny the Irish system is.



Hi DT

I had wondered about this but I fogot that Friday 27th was a Bank Holiday also.

I presume that the general rule, is that they take the money out on the first business day after a bank holiday?  This is the rule in the UK 

[broken link removed]



> If the payment due date falls at a weekend or on a bank holiday the  organisation is obliged to debit your account just after the due date,  not before, unless they notify you in advance of a change of date.





> Its tesco credit card and ptsb



I presume that means your current account is with ptsb, who have no role in this matter.


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## Time (18 Jan 2014)

It is a common enough occurrence. 

DD files are sent to the bank a few days before the date specified. This is entirely normal.

Banks have a fixed number of processing days each week. Items such as automated credits, DD, and SO are processed in batches usually in the very small hours of the morning. Most banks run batches Tuesday to Saturday. So if a DD is due on a Monday or a Tuesday following a bank holiday it is always taken on the previous Saturday. It will appear on your statement dated for the Monday. Same with money due into your account on a Monday, it will be there on the Saturday available to be used.

In the instant case the DD date was the 29th of December. The DD file would be with the paying bank well before the 23rd of December. What happened here is the DD file was processed on the 24th as it was the last batch processing date before the 29th. There were no batches processed in the morning of the 29th as the banks were closed for the previous few days. In the case of the OP it would still be on the statement as processed on the 29th. 

Also most banks now say it is a term and condition of paying DDs that the money must be cleared at the close of business the day before the DD is due. The OP failed to do this. I fail to see any grounds for complaint here.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jan 2014)

Hi Time

Very interesting. 

Even if they are technically within their rules, I think it's very shoddy. 

They knew when they sent out the November statement that they would be taking the money on 24th and not the 29th. They should have alerted customers to this.

Does anyone else have a Tesco credit card with the same payment date?


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jan 2014)

OK, Tesco have a right to claim it 5 working days before the payment date according to this.



> http://www.tesco.ie/finance/visacards/pay.html


Payment Method                                                                                                                                                                            1. Direct Debit*                                                                      There are 2 choices:                                     

Minimum payment - claimed on your payment date
Full payment - claimed 5 working days earlier than your payment date


I pay my AIB Visa card in full by direct debit, and I have never tried to do anything other than  make sure the money was there on the actual date.  There is no mention of this 5 days on the AIB Terms and Conditions 





Brendan


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## Jazzy (18 Jan 2014)

I had the same problem with dd on 24/12/13 and insufficient funds in my aib to meet payment. Aib honoured the payment but that left me with no money between the 24/12/13 and 4/1/14 so great Xmas for us!!!  I had a negative balance on my account for this period.

Anyway on the 24/12/13 I contacted both aib and tesco and f€();d both of them out of it. Solved no probs but at least I released some energy.

Aib put all blame on tesco.  So on the 27/12 and for the following three days I contacted tesco. I invoked the direct debit guarantee and they sent the full amount debited back to my a/c. Problem was with Xmas period and irish banking hours it was the 4/1/14 before I received this. I then paid my credit card on this new date by debit card. Received bill yesterday with no interest charges.

I have opened a complaint with tesco as their bill stated that the money would not be debited until the 29/12/13 OR NEXT WORKING DAY THEREAFTER. They have undertaken to meet my bank charges with aib for having insufficient funds and I have also requested compensation for the difficult Xmas I had as a result. The complaint has to be made in writing. It has also been copied to the financial regulator. I have cancelled my dd to tesco as a result.

Word of warning.... Tesco call centre do not appear to have knowledge of their irish office which has a complaints section and will request you to write to them in glascow.


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## Time (18 Jan 2014)

I have found out to my cost that simply lodging the money on the due date was not good enough. I have been hit with fees because the DD was processed in the wee small hours before I could get to the bank. The bank told me to have the money in before the COB the day before to avoid such problems.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jan 2014)

> I have opened a complaint with tesco as their bill stated that the money  would not be debited until the 29/12/13 OR NEXT WORKING DAY THEREAFTER.



Hi poolfan

Did your card statement say this? 

Brendan


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## Dermot (18 Jan 2014)

I pay my AIB Visa card in full by direct debit, and I have never tried to do anything other than make sure the money was there on the actual date. There is no mention of this 5 days on the AIB Terms and Conditions 
Brendan
Today 06:25 PM

My situation is exactly as Brendan states above.

I have Mortgages also with AIB and the DD never comes out of my account until the Monday after where the due date falls on Sunday.


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## Time (18 Jan 2014)

Are you sure it is actually the Monday? I bet it is actually gone around 5am on the Saturday.


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## DublinTexas (18 Jan 2014)

In my opinion Poolfan has unfortunately no reason to complain as Tesco clearly points out that it takes full amounts 5 working days earlier than the actual payment date in the T&C.

As to a DD that is supposed to be taken out on Sunday, I know that my bank (PTSB) is always taken that amount on Friday from the account and my DD's that were due on 29/12 also were taken on the 24/12.

Similar to Time my understanding is that I need to have funds in the account the business day before the the DD is due, I can't find the notification that PTSB send about that a while ago.

For Tesco I really can only recommend to use mybills.ie for payments, its the quick and easy.


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## Lightning (18 Jan 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi poolfan
> 
> Did your card statement say this?
> 
> Brendan



The Tesco credit card statements say the same as their website.

Next Business day only applies to part-payments and not full payments. 

If Tesco are taking the money 5 days in advance, which is completely unnecessary in a SEPA next day payment world, then they should change the payment date back 5 days to make the process clearer for the consumer.


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## poolfan (18 Jan 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Hi poolfan
> 
> Did your card statement say this?
> 
> Brendan



Yes thats what it said

Tesco have asked me to get PTSB to provide evidnce that the payment was not taken on the 24th, ( it shows this date on my online banking) ,


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## poolfan (18 Jan 2014)

But having read Dublin Texas post it does seem that I have learned a costly lesson, make sure there is enough money in my account 5 days prior to the date on the credit card statement


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## DublinTexas (18 Jan 2014)

poolfan said:


> But having read Dublin Texas post it does seem that I have learned a costly lesson, make sure there is enough money in my account 5 days prior to the date on the credit card statement



Or 6-7 if that day is falling on a weekend. 

I had nothing but problems with my Tesco Direct Debit so I have revoked that and since than pay via mybills.ie (usually there 2 days later) or directly via PTSB online banking (with 10 days before the due date just to be sure).

Tesco is really not a good option with their outdated processes, sending the statements from England and no internet banking.

Now what happens if they are moving to SEPA DD rather than IPSO DD it a good question, I noticed that UPC for example using SEPA DD is deducted on a Monday if the due date is Sunday, while under IPSO DD it was Friday with PTSB.


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## Guinea pig (18 Jan 2014)

I had this exact issue with AIB in relation to an ESB DD 2 years ago.

The last day we were paid from work was the 22nd of Dec, next pay date was the 31st of Dec.

My DD was due to come out on the 2nd of Dec but it was taken out on the 23rd of Dec. 

The DD was for more than 1 whole weeks wages, this left me with zero money for the 6 days over Christmas. 

By the time the DD was due I should have had 2 weeks wages and a child benefit payment in there, about 3 times the DD, so I felt I was well covered. 

I firstly contacted AIB, (who blamed ESB) and demanded they reverse the DD, they finally did this for me over the phone but it didn't hit my account until the next weeks pay date anyway. 

I was hit with a fee for a failed DD and an unauthorised overdraft. 

I opened a formal complaint with both companies and got all charges removed from both accounts but no compensation for having no money over Christmas. 

I cancelled my DD with ESB and 

Though it is no excuse, but UPC 'send DDs for payment 7 days before the notified payment date and state that once this file is sent they cannot change the amount to be debited or the date the payment will be taken from the account'


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## Jazzy (18 Jan 2014)

Sorry guy's but you have got this payment date thing wrong.  The five day period is invoked by tesco taking the payment on the 29th of the month. The actuAl 'payment date' is 5 days later, in this case on the 4th January.  So, you have every right to complain!

What tesco did here was invoke a 10 day period.... I.e 24/12/13 for actual payment date of 4/1/14.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jan 2014)

poolfan said:


> Yes thats what it said
> 
> Tesco have asked me to get PTSB to provide evidnce that the payment was not taken on the 24th, ( it shows this date on my online banking) ,



poolfan

What is the exact wording on the statement? 


I don't think that a credit card company can say Payment Date: 10 February, if their terms and conditions allow them to take the money out 5 business days earlier.  In fact, I don't think that they can take the money out a day earlier either if the payment date is a bank holiday.  If they can't take the money out on a bank holiday, they should revise the payment date to a working day for the bank. 

Brendan


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## Gulliver (18 Jan 2014)

1   The points at issue here are not covered directly by any banking legislation or by Direct Debit rules or by the Payment Services Regulations 2009.  So we are in areas covered by contract law, and banking practice.
2   Under normal banking practice, if a payment is presented for debitting on a non-business day, it will be debitted on the next business day.  This has been practice since time began
3   The date for presentation of a direct debit is set by the payee (Tesco in this case).  Tesco must not present it for payment on any date prior to the date which has been agreed with the payer.
4   It therefore seems that one party (Tesco or the payers bank) has made a mistake.  It is impossible to determine which party made the mistake until one has sight of the instructions which Tesco presented with its bulk file to its bank.

On the question about there being funds in the account, banks are certainly allowed to insist that funds can not be drawn until a lodgement is "cleared for fate".  A lodgment is cleared for fate when there is no possibility that it will bounce.  This is normally considered as 5 days fopr a cheque drawn on another bank.  Not all banks insist on such rules for clearance, and some bankls use different rules for different customers


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## Jazzy (18 Jan 2014)

Poolfan

Check my earlier post re 'payment date'

Also refer to the direct debit guarantee, it's the uk guarantee which tesco work by and is there to protect customers.  This was provided to you at your time of application to them and can be found on the web 
(I can't post the link as I have insufficient posts on this site to afford me. The privilege but do a a search under 'direct debit guarantee U.K.'

Point no 2 covers your difficulty. Tesco are to inform you if money is to be taken earlier than advised in their statement


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jan 2014)

Gulliver said:


> 4   It therefore seems that one party (Tesco or the payers bank) has made a mistake.  It is impossible to determine which party made the mistake until one has sight of the instructions which Tesco presented with its bulk file to its bank.



Hi Gulliver

See Jazzy's post



> I had the same problem with dd on 24/12/13 and insufficient funds in my  aib to meet payment.



So it does look as if it was Tesco who made the mistake? 

Surely the bank would have a very limited role?  The bulk file would have been set up automatically by Tescos. It's unlikely that AIB or ptsb would have any involvement with it in terms of setting the date?


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## DMcL1971 (18 Jan 2014)

DMcL1971 said:


> Poolfan,
> The normal procedure for all direct debits is that a bill is issued to you by the originator (Tesco in your case). The payment date is specified by Tesco on the bill. This is a notification to you to inform you that you need to have sufficient funds in your account on that day. The originator will then request the bank to take the money from your account on that date. If the date is not a bank working day then the bank will take the payment on the next bank working day after that date. The DD originator is not allowed to specify a date to the bank which is earlier than the day of which they have notified you.
> 
> The originator chooses the date and the bank processes payment either on that date or on the next bank working date. If the DD was taken early it was because Tesco told the bank to take it early.



As above the date is decided by Tesco not the bank. Jazzy's post proves the error is with Tesco as at leas two different banks processed the payment on the 24th.


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## poolfan (18 Jan 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> poolfan
> 
> What is the exact wording on the statement?
> 
> ...



Your nominated bank account will be debited with the full balance on 29/01/2014 or soon after


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## poolfan (18 Jan 2014)

Thanks Jazzy I'll follow them up again on monday

Thankfully its a freephone number!


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Jan 2014)

poolfan said:


> Your nominated bank account will be debited with the full balance on 29/01/2014 or soon after



You can't get any clearer than that.  This completely overrides any terms and conditions. Someone seeing that must ensure that their bank account is in funds on 29 Jan. They took it out early and should now sort you and all the other affected customers out. 

Brendan


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## Jiblet-run (19 Jan 2014)

I have a Tesco credit card and the same happened to me.
My bank is with Ulster.
Normally I clear my balance using mybills.ie but I let the direct debit go through in December.
I observed Tesco taking the money from my account on Dec 24th which I thought was a bit cheeky as I knew the payment date was the 29/12. However I soon realised that the next business day was Monday 30th December. 
I've noticed that direct debits and also standing orders, with Ulster Bank, which fall on a non business day are taken from my account from the closest business day prior. For example my rent, which is set up as a standing order by myself, was taken on Jan 18th even though the payment date is Jan 20th. But as Jan 20th is a Sunday, I guess banks policy is to take the money on the business day before rather than after. 
Unfortunately OP I don't think you have a case here as from experience and what has been quoted by other posters, Tesco have T&Cs to take the money 5 days in advance - I didn't know this myself either! Still by all means complain as I have found the personnel on the Tesco Call Centre reasonably understanding and flexible - so maybe they might let this one slide.
Good luck!


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## Jiblet-run (19 Jan 2014)

Apologies I got my days wrong. Monday is the 20th. I have to say I am surprised that Ulster Bank couldn't wait till Monday 20th - the day of the S/O - to take the money from my account. They took it on Friday 17th but on my statement online its dated as Jan 20th.

I might give them a call and just query this.


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## Time (19 Jan 2014)

If it is Ulster they took it around 2am on the Saturday the 18th with a date of Jan 20th on it.


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## Brendan Burgess (19 Jan 2014)

Jiblet-run said:


> Unfortunately OP I don't think you have a case here as from experience and what has been quoted by other posters, Tesco have T&Cs to take the money 5 days in advance - I didn't know this myself either!



I don't agree with you. The following line on the statement overrides the Tc&Cs 



> Your nominated bank account will be debited with the full balance on 29/01/2014 or soon after


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## llgon (20 Jan 2014)

Jiblet-run said:


> Unfortunately OP I don't think you have a case here as from experience and what has been quoted by other posters, Tesco have T&Cs to take the money 5 days in advance - I didn't know this myself either! !


 
I think there is some confusion over this point. The date given for the DD to be taken i.e. 29th Dec would have been 5 days before the payment date.  If not paying by DD you have a few days extra to get payments in.

I don't think Tesco should have taken your payment early though I have a Tesco CC and think this is normal practice for them.


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## poolfan (20 Feb 2014)

Just update, sent on my bank statement showing where the payment was taken out on the 24th december, 

Tesco have refunded their interest charge as well as fees incurred from the bank

Thanks for all the help


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## DMcL1971 (20 Feb 2014)

poolfan said:


> Just update, sent on my bank statement showing where the payment was taken out on the 24th december,
> 
> Tesco have refunded their interest charge as well as fees incurred from the bank
> 
> Thanks for all the help



Good result poolfan.


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