# Nanny State on OTC Medicine



## roker (25 Feb 2012)

Yesterday I tried to buy 2 x 12 packets of Panadol in Supervalue, I was told I could only have 1 packet of 12, to which I responded that the pharmacy directly opposite in the shopping centre sells 24 packets, I was told that this is the law. I purchased 1 packet, walked across the shopping centre about 10 meters and purchased a 24 packet in the pharmacy, so now I have 36 tablets.

I suffer from migraine headache and for years always keep Syndol or Solpadeine in my car or at my bedside, 2 tablets usually does the trick, they are much more effective because they contain Codeine, and there lies the problem.

Someone has decided that Codeine is addictive and I have great trouble obtaining them now. Boots will refuse outright to sell them, I cannot take Nurofen because they are hard on my stomach, so I cannot get something effective for my headache but they are promoting the morning after pill.

Who makes up these crazy laws? I get my Syndol in large quantities now from the UK when I am over there, they don’t have the same silly laws.

Because the odd person can get addicted to Codeine we all must suffer, a pity they do not have the same outlook on alcohol.


----------



## PaddyBloggit (26 Feb 2012)

I was under the impression that no more than 12 should be in a packet ... so how come the pharmacy was selling 24 in a pack? ... presuming you are talking about Panadol.

Some of the reasons why a restriction was brought in:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paracetamol-the-pill-that-kills-446781.html


----------



## Leper (26 Feb 2012)

roker said:


> Who makes up these crazy laws?


 
That's the whole point.  This nanny state is being run by minorities.  Nobody listens to the majority.  All is needed to introduce crazy laws is some pressure group to moan constantly.

The collective minorities have their way always and much to the detriment of the majority.  Take the guy would normally would have one pint of beer (there are some, you know) and suddenly now they cannot even have the one pint and drive a car without being over the breathalyser limit. People can drive like lunatics at Formula 1 speeds on country roads ignoring Stop signs and hugging the wrong side of the road.  But, have one pint and drive a few people home you are in big trouble.


----------



## Knuttell (26 Feb 2012)

I am allergic to Anadin and Solpadeine is the only one I trust not to bring on an alergic reaction,I just dare not risk trying anything else as the reaction is very severe,I am sick to the back teeth of being treated like a junkie every time I go to buy a packet,on one occasion I got a lecture off an Indian lady in a pharmacy in Ongar who told me she would sell me a packet but if she saw me back in the shop a few weeks from now she would not sell me any more,needless to say she didn't get very far into her patronizing lecturing before I pulled her up on it.

On another occasion in Eniscorthy I was given the same treatment by an old school Irish pharmacist who looked me up and down and asked me in a tone surely reserved for morphine addicts who would sell their own mothers,why I wanted to buy a pack and that he would only sell me a pack of 12...this to a shop full of people waiting on scripts etc who all went silent to have a good listen to him lecturing the Dublin junkie,needless to say he got both barells in return and didn't look half so clever when I was finished filleting him.

If I want to buy a packet now I go to chain pharmacies where I am treated like a human being and not some drug addled brass monkey,I now refuse to have any prescriptions filled in small Irish owned pharmacies,preferring instead to deal with professional large chain Chemists who when selling me Solpadeine do so in full compliance with their legal obligations in a polite & decent manner.


----------



## roker (26 Feb 2012)

I was able to get the equivalent to Solpadol over the counter in Portugal, which is stronger than Syndol or Solpadein (500 mg Paracetamol + 30mg Codein), this requires a prescription here.


----------



## Knuttell (26 Feb 2012)

Yorky said:


> Do you mean asprin? Anadin is a pharmaceutical brand with the active ingredient being asprin.



Yes correct,it took me 2 such reactions before I was able to link the incidents to the 2 occasions I took anadin/aspirin,I had a face that looked like a boxer who had gone 20 rounds with Mike Tyson and I was almost unrecognizable,very unpleasant.I was never allergic to aspirin before these incidents so at some point unknown to me I must have become desensitized.


----------



## Smashbox (26 Feb 2012)

roker said:


> Someone has decided that Codeine is addictive and I have great trouble obtaining them now.



Codeine is addictive. It is an opiate and some people are dependent on it. 
[broken link removed] 

If you need to take Solpadeine regularly, ask your doctor for a prescription. They will have no problem writing you one if you need it. 

Personally I am glad of the new guidelines. As long as the pharmacist asks the required questions and doesn't treat someone like a drug addict, I'm more than happy to explain my symptoms or reasons for wanting to buy them. If a pharmacist DOES treat you badly, don't give them your business again.


----------



## ajapale (26 Feb 2012)

PaddyBloggit said:


> Some of the reasons why a restriction was brought in: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paracetamol-the-pill-that-kills-446781.html



Thanks Paddy,

An estimated half of all liver transplants carried out in Ireland result from poisoning from this drug (paracetemol).

aj


----------



## truthseeker (26 Feb 2012)

Smashbox said:


> If you need to take Solpadeine regularly, ask your doctor for a prescription. They will have no problem writing you one if you need it.
> 
> Personally I am glad of the new guidelines. As long as the pharmacist asks the required questions and doesn't treat someone like a drug addict, I'm more than happy to explain my symptoms or reasons for wanting to buy them. If a pharmacist DOES treat you badly, don't give them your business again.



I havent got the money to pay my doctor 60 quid for a prescription for if I have a headache. I would far rather drive across the border, visit a few pharmacies, buy a pack in each one and come back to the nanny state with a years supply of pain relief and not having been treated like a junkie.

One of my local pharmacists, while not treating me like a junkie, did shout at me from 20 feet away behind a counter as to why I wanted the pain relief, I did not wish to shout about my period pain with a number of local neighbours standing around - so I left. Now they probably think Im a junkie, but in reality I was just embarrassed.

I had a recent root canal and was in a lot of pain that evening, I tried for Solphadeine and was asked had I tried anything else, yes, but plain paracetmol is not cutting the mustard, what about ibuprofen - no it doesnt agree with my stomach so I cant take it, what about aspirin.........- just give me the bloody pain relief that I know works! I havent the time, the money or the willingness to risk a bad reaction on trying every other pain relief on the market when I know 2 solphadeine will do the trick!!

Or this business of only selling you a small packet. I will only sell you 10 Syndol. Well will you sell them to me at half the price of a 20 pack? Because otherwise you are fleecing me for an extra euro.


----------



## truthseeker (26 Feb 2012)

ajapale said:


> Thanks Paddy,
> 
> An estimated half of all liver transplants carried out in Ireland result from poisoning from this drug (paracetemol).
> 
> aj



This info is based on this.



> A total of 25 liver transplants was carried out in Ireland in 1999. It is estimated that half of all liver transplants result from paracetamol poisoning. People have a perception that this is a harmless drug but it can cause severe damage. Taken in small doses, paracetamol is an excellent drug which is broken down in the liver to harmless by-products to be eliminated by the kidneys.



There were 25 liver transplants in Ireland in 1999. So for 12 an a half people we now have to have the 3rd degree in a pharmacy for pain relief? Doesnt make any sense at all. How many people die every year from tobacco and alcohol related illness yet people are able to legally drink and smoke away without being made to feel like junkies for it.


----------



## orka (26 Feb 2012)

truthseeker said:


> There were 25 liver transplants in Ireland in 1999. So for 12 an a half people we now have to have the 3rd degree in a pharmacy for pain relief?


It's not even for the 12.5 people because a determined person can easily do a tour of a few pharmacies/supermarkets to get their hands on as much paracetamol as they want.


----------



## Smashbox (26 Feb 2012)

As someone whos family member was addicted to this specific drug, I still stand by the new guidelines as I know how easy it can be to addicted without realising it until its too late.


----------



## truthseeker (26 Feb 2012)

Smashbox said:


> As someone whos family member was addicted to this specific drug, I still stand by the new guidelines as I know how easy it can be to addicted without realising it until its too late.



Paracetamol or codeine? 

Im not saying addiction doesnt happen but should we all suffer for the addictions of a minority?

Alcohol is a far far bigger problem in this country yet the pubs and off licences happily sell.


----------



## Smashbox (26 Feb 2012)

Codeine is the addictive substance. They were addicted to Solpadeine. Up to 1.5-2 packs a day which were easily available by visiting local pharmacys without question.


----------



## roker (26 Feb 2012)

I have had solpadiene for years and only need 2 tablets when I have a migrain, I am not addicted, Codein in liquid form is also excelent for chest problems, have you tasted it? its vile, how can you get addicted to that?
How many people that overdosed Panadol also over indulged in alchol? how can they tell the difference if they take both.


----------



## truthseeker (26 Feb 2012)

Smashbox said:


> Codeine is the addictive substance. They were addicted to Solpadeine. Up to 1.5-2 packs a day which were easily available by visiting local pharmacys without question.



Yes, this isnt a surprise, I know a couple of people who were like that myself.

However, do you not think, that people need to take personal responsibility and not be nannied by the state?


----------



## roker (26 Feb 2012)

+1 At least they only affect themselves and not others like alcohol when they go binge drinking, get violent, and need the police/gada to sort things out


----------



## truthseeker (26 Feb 2012)

roker said:


> +1 At least they only affect themselves and not others like alcohol when they go binge drinking, get violent, and need the police/gada to sort things out



Well it probably does affect the families of those addicted as any addiction would, but the question remains, is it the states responsibility to stop a small minority of people from becoming codeine addicts because they dont follow the instructions that are written on the packet of an otc medicine?

This article from 2008 says:


> Fresh statistics from the Health Research Board reveal 52 patients hooked on the over-the-counter painkiller such as brand-leaders Solpadeine and Neurofen Plus were treated in rehab centres in Ireland in 2006.
> 
> Experts say the sharp rise is a reflection of how codeine addiction in this country is becoming a "serious problem."
> 
> In 2005, the number was 42 and in 2004 it was 22.



I mean, for these numbers was it really necessary to make it so difficult for the rest of us to get a painkiller? The mind boggles tbh.

I appreciate the numbers are no doubt higher because of a large number of people not diagnosed, but seriously, even if the numbers were 10 times higher, or even 100 times higher - thats still not that many people!


----------



## Smashbox (26 Feb 2012)

roker said:


> +1 At least they only affect themselves



Definitely not true, at all.


----------



## ajapale (26 Feb 2012)

*Codeine the silent addiction - Health News, Health - Independent.ie*



> Finally, whilst codeine based analgesia is widely available I would guard    against restricting its use by making it prescription only. The vast    majority of people use these drugs safely and as directed. It would be    unfair to penalise the majority because the minority are misusing them,    however greater awareness and better treatment options are needed than    currently exists.
> Dr Garett McGovern, Dublin-based addiction specialist


 


I remember hearing Eamonn Dunphy speaking candidly about his addiction to Solpadene a few years ago.


I find it reassuring when on my biannual visit to the chemists I get grilled by the pharmacist and get reminded about the dangers of Solpadene.


----------



## Knuttell (27 Feb 2012)

ajapale said:


> I find it reassuring when on my biannual visit to the chemists I get grilled by the pharmacist and get reminded about the dangers of Solpadene.



Solpadene is not crack cocaine,though to hear some posters you would think that  over use would find them bedraggled,pan handling in alleyways looking for spare change in order to get the money together for a liver transplant.

Its a pain killer,99% of the population managed to use it without getting strung out on it,the other 1% in fairness probably have addictive personalities and if it wasn't solpadene then it could equally have been chocolate bars,drink, marijuana or lap dancers.Take your pick.

This constant knee jerk reaction by weak Ministers who cave into what ever lobby group bleats loudest has a lot do with the current situation Ireland now faces,all because a tiny percentage cannot manage, whether its their fault or not,to live life in moderation.


----------



## Sunny (27 Feb 2012)

ajapale said:


> I find it reassuring when on my biannual visit to the chemists I get grilled by the pharmacist and get reminded about the dangers of Solpadene.


 
Eh? Why do you need to be reminded? Do you like your local barman to remind you about the dangers of alcohol everytime you buy a pint?


----------



## Ceist Beag (27 Feb 2012)

Ciagrettes are addictive, yet imagine the furore if suddenly people were only allowed to buy 12 cigarettes per day! Alcohol is addictive yet you can fill a supermarket trolley with the stuff. So codeine is addictive, fine slap a big warning sticker on the box if you want but let people decide for themselves if they want to buy 12, 24 or stock up for 6 months.


----------



## micmclo (27 Feb 2012)

Cover thy ass

I suspect shops like the restrictions and want to keep them

Stops the ambulance chasing solicitors from taking the shop to court when someone does something stupid [or tragic] with the tablets and decides to sue
Hey, Ireland got a reputation for compo culture for a reason


----------



## michaelm (27 Feb 2012)

roker said:


> Who makes up these crazy laws?


It's just a cost-free way of fooling taxpayers that the State is concerned about addiction.  All the while the State is using taxpayers money to ensure legions of people stay addicted to methadone and steadfastly doing nothing to address alcohol abuse.


----------



## Purple (27 Feb 2012)

michaelm said:


> It's just a cost-free way of fooling taxpayers that the State is concerned about addiction.  All the while the State is using taxpayers money to ensure legions of people stay addicted to methadone and steadfastly doing nothing to address alcohol abuse.



That’s unfair.
Alcohol consumption levels have been dropping for years now. That didn’t happen by accident.
Methadone is prescribed as part of a GP controlled programme which involved stabilising the addict and then reducing their dosage over time. If the discussion is about whether or not the state is getting value for money on these programmes and/or if GP’s are being overpaid for their services then I would have far more critical views.


----------



## truthseeker (27 Feb 2012)

ajapale said:


> I find it reassuring when on my biannual visit to the chemists I get grilled by the pharmacist and get reminded about the dangers of Solpadene.



I agree with Sunny, why do you need reminding? Do you forget that these medicines carry dangers if not used properly, do you not see the information printed on the packaging?

And as for biannual, you are extremely lucky, and most likely male, if you only require a packet of painkillers twice in one year. Some of us are not so lucky. Some women may require a couple of days of painkillers once a month just to be able to function, and not miss work. Some of us have back pain, get tension headaches, or variety of other minor pains that could be taken care of easily with an otc painkiller, and are tired of being questioned at length, and told the same thing over and over again....


----------



## michaelm (27 Feb 2012)

Purple said:


> That’s unfair.


Perhaps.

Emigration and the recession may be why overall alcohol consumption is down.  I haven't seen any evidence that levels of alcohol abuse have diminished or that such is being taken seriously.  Methadone is used to keep heroin addicts docile.  How many methadone success stories have you heard.


----------



## T McGibney (27 Feb 2012)

Purple said:


> Alcohol consumption levels have been dropping for years now. That didn’t happen by accident.



The government's efforts since 2006 have been to discourage and criminalise moderate drinking, that's why we now have a dying pub industry, random breath tests on the roads and a far lower alcohol limit for drivers than applies in the UK. Unsurprisingly this has led to a sharp fall in alcohol consumption but not much impact (if any) on alcoholism or alcohol abuse.


----------



## Purple (27 Feb 2012)

michaelm said:


> How many methadone success stories have you heard.


Quite a few actually.


----------



## ajapale (27 Feb 2012)

> *Codeine the silent addiction - Health News, Health - Independent.ie* Dr Garett McGovern, Dublin-based addiction specialist
> 
> I recently started a patient on methadone who developed a perforated stomach    ulcer from years of abuse of codeine-ibuprofen preparations.
> She told me that she never knew that these drugs were addictive. She    explained: "I spent years going from doctor to doctor trying to get    help. They had no idea how to treat this addiction.
> ...


Strange to say methadone is a treatment for codeine abuse.


Im still reassued by the few well chosen words by the relevant professional ie the chemist.


----------



## roker (27 Feb 2012)

T McGibney said:


> The government's efforts since 2006 have been to discourage and criminalise moderate drinking, that's why we now have a dying pub industry, random breath tests on the roads and a far lower alcohol limit for drivers than applies in the UK. Unsurprisingly this has led to a sharp fall in alcohol consumption but not much impact (if any) on alcoholism or alcohol abuse.


 
Binge drinking does not happen in rural areas, it is in the city when clubs come out.


----------



## lou2 (27 Feb 2012)

The restriction on paracetamol was partly introduced in an attempt to reduce the incidence of deliberate self-harm using self-poisoning by paracetamol. While it is of course possible to move from one chemist to another to buy several packets of the medication, self-harm is often associated with impulsivity and so putting in regulations which decreases the potential for an impulsive reaction is (and has been) beneficial.


----------



## Knuttell (27 Feb 2012)

lou2 said:


> The restriction on paracetamol was partly introduced in an attempt to reduce the incidence of deliberate self-harm using self-poisoning by paracetamol.



A lot of self harm is inflicted with knives,what do you propose be done to stop this,or indeed how to you propose we prevent self harm by use of bleach,rat poison,skipping rope,single car accidents,water,razor blades,shotgun etc ad nauseum (literally)

Pretty poor reason to inflict the Spanish Inquisition on those who want nothing more than a reliable tablet that cures a head ache.

If they are that much of a danger to themselves then perhaps they need hospitalization?not some half baked regulatons that really in fairness is not going to stop someone visiting a few chemists if they are determined enough to commit suicide.



> so putting in regulations which decreases the potential for an impulsive reaction is (and has been) beneficial.



How have you come to this conclusion,wheres your link that proves conclusively that the new regs have stopped self harm by Solpadene??

Its not remotely quantifiable.

This Country,honestly it would break your heart.


----------



## lou2 (28 Feb 2012)

Hi Knuttel,

I was referring exclusively to paracetamol. I have numerous studies that can prove this. I was not referring to Solpadeine at all.

And again, the issue of self-harm by other methods is another discussion and not for this forum. I was simply giving a factual reply to a query referring to Paracetamol. If you would like me to send you on any of the studies which report on this in a national and international context I can do this.


----------



## MrMan (28 Feb 2012)

I don't need to be quizzed about why im buying tablets if I have a headache etc, but I also don't have a problem with it. I've never been refused because I simply answer the questions, receive the product and get on with my day. I think this is a non issue and people are being too sensitive. 
Cigarettes and alcohol have long been sold as luxury items that we take for enjoyment, XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX are there to help with an ailment, so you need a reason to take them.


----------



## truthseeker (28 Feb 2012)

MrMan said:


> I don't need to be quizzed about why im buying tablets if I have a headache etc, but I also don't have a problem with it. I've never been refused because I simply answer the questions, receive the product and get on with my day. I think this is a non issue and people are being too sensitive.



I have been refused. I asked for Syndol for period pain and was told to take plain paracetamol, despite explaining that I had already tried that and I needed something stronger. They also offered me ibprofen which I cannot take as it upsets my stomach. I ended up fainting from pain in work and having to go home and lie down with a hot water bottle. Not fun.


----------



## Chris (28 Feb 2012)

roker said:


> Yesterday I tried to buy 2 x 12 packets of Panadol in Supervalue, I was told I could only have 1 packet of 12, to which I responded that the pharmacy directly opposite in the shopping centre sells 24 packets, I was told that this is the law. I purchased 1 packet, walked across the shopping centre about 10 meters and purchased a 24 packet in the pharmacy, so now I have 36 tablets.
> 
> I suffer from migraine headache and for years always keep Syndol or Solpadeine in my car or at my bedside, 2 tablets usually does the trick, they are much more effective because they contain Codeine, and there lies the problem.
> 
> ...


I agree, it is a ridiculous situation of a state overstepping boundaries of power. I suffer from periodic back pain due to a damaged disk in my lower back. Solpedeine and Neurofen Plus usually work well enough to alleviate the pain enough for me to do certain exercises. When this law was first introduced I was refused both of the above by three different pharmacists. This resulted in my back eventually going into spasm and a GP prescribing me Solpadol, Tramadol and Valium (all far more addictive that what I originally wanted). In fairness, since the last time this happened my local pharmacist doesn't ask me questions, as he knows why I take Neurofen Plus.

What I freely choose to put in my body is no business of the state. People do not need protecting from themselves, just because a small number may misuse a product.



Smashbox said:


> As someone whos family member was addicted to this specific drug, I still stand by the new guidelines as I know how easy it can be to addicted without realising it until its too late.


So because a very small number of people developed addictions a much larger number requiring pain relief have to be quizzed every time and often refused?



Sunny said:


> Eh? Why do you need to be reminded? Do you like your local barman to remind you about the dangers of alcohol everytime you buy a pint?


You beat me too it.


----------



## Marion (28 Feb 2012)

I have never been quizzed by a pharmacist about my purchase of syndol, nurofen or paracetemol.

Just once I was advised not to take the syndol at the same time as the paracetemol. But they still sold both of them to me.

I wouldn't be particularly well known where I now live - I don't always go to the same pharmacy. I only buy these tablets infrequently.

Maybe I look honest.

Marion


----------



## Purple (28 Feb 2012)

Marion said:


> Maybe I look honest.
> 
> Marion



no, that can't be it.


----------



## Marion (28 Feb 2012)

Purple said:


> no, that can't be it.




So what's your take on it then?

Inefficient private sector incompetence? 

Marion


----------



## roker (28 Feb 2012)

Marion said:


> I have never been quizzed by a pharmacist about my purchase of syndol, nurofen or paracetemol.
> 
> Marion


 
Try Boots then


----------



## Marion (28 Feb 2012)

> try boots then



Why?



Marion


----------



## roker (29 Feb 2012)

Boots will refuse you for sure, see my first post


----------



## Marion (29 Feb 2012)

Hi Roker

Grand. I will definitely go there next time just to know what I have been missing in terms of inquisitions. I will report back. 


Marion


----------



## Sunny (29 Feb 2012)

Marion said:


> Hi Roker
> 
> Grand. I will definitely go there next time just to know what I have been missing in terms of inquisitions. I will report back.
> 
> ...



Imagine going there, them not refusing you and throwing a tantrum in the shop about them giving you the drugs without asking any questions!


----------



## Marion (29 Feb 2012)

Sunny said:


> Imagine going there, them not refusing you and throwing a tantrum in the shop about them giving you the drugs without asking any questions!



 

Marion


----------



## truthseeker (29 Feb 2012)

Marion said:


> Grand. I will definitely go there next time just to know what I have been missing in terms of inquisitions. I will report back.



I look forward to your report. Be sure to make up some really horrendous pain that any normal person would offer you hard drugs for. Dont just go in with a wimpy headache. Maybe post root canal pain(the dentist advised me to take codeine based meds after this - little did she know I had to survive on an aspirin!).


----------



## roker (29 Feb 2012)

BTW it was Boots in Wilton Cork, refused me on 3 occasion ,but I expect it is a general policy on all their stores


----------



## Purple (1 Mar 2012)

roker said:


> BTW it was Boots in Wilton Cork, refused me on 3 occasion ,but I expect it is a general policy on all their stores


Was there a photo of you stuck to the wall behind the counter?


----------



## Marion (9 Mar 2012)

Update:

I went to Boots  and I asked for a pack of syndol - 20 please.

I was told "Sorry, syndol is no longer available, some problems with the company.

I asked if Boots have a generic syndol-type product.

No. Nothing like syndol. ::: Just codeine based products or paramacetemol.


Marion


----------



## truthseeker (9 Mar 2012)

So we were right - you didnt get the drugs in Boots - but not for the reasons we thought lol!!

Try them for Solphadeine. You only didnt get an interrogation because no money changed hands.


----------



## roker (9 Mar 2012)

Good on you for trying Marion. Their warped minds would have given you the morning after pill though, if you asked


----------



## PaddyBloggit (9 Mar 2012)

roker said:


> Their warped minds would have given you the morning after pill though, if you asked



How are their minds warped?


----------



## roker (12 Mar 2012)

PaddyBloggit: Do you have daughters?


----------



## Sunny (12 Mar 2012)

roker said:


> Good on you for trying Marion. Their warped minds would have given you the morning after pill though, if you asked


 


roker said:


> PaddyBloggit: Do you have daughters?


----------



## Purple (12 Mar 2012)

roker said:


> Good on you for trying Marion. Their warped minds would have given you the morning after pill though, if you asked





PaddyBloggit said:


> How are their minds warped?





roker said:


> PaddyBloggit: Do you have daughters?



I have daughters and I'd ask the same question as PaddyBloggit.


----------



## PaddyBloggit (12 Mar 2012)

roker said:


> PaddyBloggit: Do you have daughters?



What has this got to do with anything?


----------

