# Legal Advice re Adverse Possession for Residents Association



## Happy Girl (30 Mar 2007)

Hi! Our estate was built about 16 years ago and has never been taken "in charge" by our local town council and is still under the "charge" of the developer. We have requested our Town Council to take us in charge on numerous occasions to no avail. It has never been a big issue before but things have changed. The Developer is now selling one of our small green areas to another person (not living in the estate) subject to planning permission being granted. The buyer is proposing to build a house in similar design to the rest of the estate. Planning has been lodged and further information requested which is not a good sign for us - we had hoped that it would be refused straight off. 14 objections lodged but we are not optimistic about the application being refused. Can this really happen. Seems to unfair to us given that we have maintained this green area ourselves for the past 16yrs and the only assistance the original developer gave us was his 90euro per year as residents assoc contribution. By the way the person buying the land is proposing to sell the house. He does not intend to live in it so it is only for speculative purposes that he is building.


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## ClubMan (30 Mar 2007)

*Re: Residents Association*

I think the title of your thread is misleading and you are talking about a management company and not a residents association etc.



Is this ConsumerConnect link of any use? There are several other threads on management company situations similar to this that might be worth checking out.


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## Vanilla (30 Mar 2007)

*Re: Residents Association*

I think it's more likely the OP is correct and that it is a residents association rather than a management company. And if that is the case it is likely that there is nothing you can do except follow the planning process/ appeals etc. In the unlikely event that it is a management company you might consult your solicitor to have a look at teh original contracts and title to the estate and see if there is anything contractual there but really I think its unlikely and given the passage of time...


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## Happy Girl (30 Mar 2007)

*Re: Residents Association*

No clubman. It is a residents association. Basically seems to unfair that developer can just come back 16yrs later and sell green area in our estate which we have taken care of and maintained for past 16yrs.


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## ClubMan (30 Mar 2007)

*Re: Residents Association*

Sorry about that...

I presume that the _RA _does not have any legal entitlement to the land in question so (planning permissions allowing) the developer can do what they like with it as (presumably) the beneficial owner.


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## Happy Girl (11 May 2007)

*Re: Residents Association*



ClubMan said:


> Sorry about that...
> I presume that the _RA _does not have any legal entitlement to the land in question so (planning permissions allowing) the developer can do what they like with it as (presumably) the beneficial owner.


 
This is the thing we are unclear about. We have just found out about the term "adverse possession". Basically my understanding is that if we have maintained this area at our own cost and that our children have played on it for the past 16yrs that we have some sort of entitlement something similar to squatters rights in a house that has been occupied for a very long time unhindered by the owner. The site in question has not in any way been cordoned off or isolated by the owner (developer) for this 16yr duration. Any advice or any direction as to where to go to further investigate this would be very much appreciated. To go the legal route would be a very expensive option so we need to have our facts correct before going that way.


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## Vanilla (11 May 2007)

Actually to get a consultation with a solicitor for approximately an hour would cost a couple of hundred euro at the maximum. Divide that by the number of people involved and I'd imagine it's easily affordable. 

Anyone with any limited knowledge of adverse possession can give you an opinion on this thread but really specific detailed targeted advice is what you need. You should arrange for a consultation, ensuring that the cost will be met by all involved.

For what it's worth, based on what you've said,I think you are very unlikely to be able to claim adverse possession. But I don't know all the facts.


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## nelly (11 May 2007)

Mybe i am missing something here but as it is a green area can you not send out your kids to play on it more while the planning is going on. Surely the council can't sell it if it is a green area for your site? 
Start writing to your town councillers and TD's from the area perhaps?


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## Happy Girl (11 May 2007)

nelly said:


> Mybe i am missing something here but as it is a green area can you not send out your kids to play on it more while the planning is going on. Surely the council can't sell it if it is a green area for your site?
> Start writing to your town councillers and TD's from the area perhaps?


 
Nelly I am afraid it is not just as simple as that (unfortunately). It is currently one of the green areas in the estate that the smaller children can play on but developer still has ownership of the estate and therefore still owns the land. Have already written to local councillors who are totally backing us however they are totally separate from planners who have granted the planning permission and their voicing of their disagreement with planning has not held any weight. So therefore we are looking at the whole "adverse possession" as the next angle we can come from.


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## The Pool Boy (11 May 2007)

We had a similar situation in our estate a couple of years back. Seven years after finishing the estate he applied for permission to build four more at the edge of our green area. Residents Association and individuals objected. We got local papers etc involved.

Developer was refused permission. We have even since got council to take over estate.


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## Happy Girl (11 May 2007)

The Pool Boy said:


> We had a similar situation in our estate a couple of years back. Seven years after finishing the estate he applied for permission to build four more at the edge of our green area. Residents Association and individuals objected. We got local papers etc involved.
> 
> Developer was refused permission. We have even since got council to take over estate.


 
Thanks Pool Boy. Planning has been granted this week so we have 4wks to take to An Bord Pleanala. Can you give me some of the reasons for objection that you used. Have all councillors on our side its just some strong reasons that will stand up in Bord Pleanala.

Have been on to Town Council who tell me even when they take our estate in charge they only take charge of roads/water/sewerage and that the developer basically "owns" the land forever.

Can anybody recommend a good solicitor who would be willing to talk to us and advise. Solicitors can be reluctant to take on Residents Associations.


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## The Pool Boy (11 May 2007)

We objected on a few grounds. Safety was one of them as some of the development would have been on a corner within the estate. 

We also objected on the basis of reduced green area...I don't think it would have put the green area below the legal requirement as I believe we have more then they were required to provide....but it seemed to work for us.

I wasn't directly involved in the process, but I also seem to remember that security for children during construction was cited as another reason to object.


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## TreeTiger (11 May 2007)

Have you looked at the original planning application (and permission) for the estate? It might be useful to see what was intended for that green area then.


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## Happy Girl (11 May 2007)

TreeTiger said:


> Have you looked at the original planning application (and permission) for the estate? It might be useful to see what was intended for that green area then.


 
Just rang Council half hour ago to see where I would obtain original planning file to investigate this. Thank you so much for all contributions. They are very much appreciated. Two heads (or more) certainly are better than one. Any suggestions re Solicitor who might take us on.


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## Happy Girl (11 May 2007)

Happy Girl said:


> Just rang Council half hour ago to see where I would obtain original planning file to investigate this. Thank you so much for all contributions. They are very much appreciated. Two heads (or more) certainly are better than one. Any suggestions re Solicitor who might take us on.


 
Just called into the council and my God it's like trying to draw teeth dealing with them . They cannot locate file so I am to come back next week (and clock is ticking with our 4wk timeframe for an appeal). Was really made to feel like I was putting them out big time. Any other suggestions or recommendations for a good solicitor who might deal with us is much appreciated.


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## Happy Girl (13 May 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Actually to get a consultation with a solicitor for approximately an hour would cost a couple of hundred euro at the maximum. Divide that by the number of people involved and I'd imagine it's easily affordable.


 
Vanilla had meeting over weekend and complete sense of desolation. Each appeal to an Bord Pleanala will cost us 210euro. So add 14objectors @ 210euro each together with the solicitors fee and residents association will go bankrupt. Any engineers out there familiar with the planning process who can give me some guidelines on what case to put forward to an Bord Pleanala or are we wasting our time and money here? HAPPY GIRL NOT SO HAPPY AS MOMENT


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## RainyDay (13 May 2007)

Can you do a joint appeal to the Bord instead of individual appeals?


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## Happy Girl (14 May 2007)

Will investigate this today. What I do know is that only those who made an original objection to County Council re this application can make appeal to Bord Pleanala. But will look at possibility of group appeal and maybe just get everybody who objected originally to sign the appeal letter. Anybody else with any further advice?


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## dewdrop (14 May 2007)

i am new to askaboutmoney and this thread cries out ffor professional advice. are such persons usually slow to give free advice. it is sad to see people endeavouring to be of help when an informed person could put the issue to bed in one response.


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## Satanta (14 May 2007)

dewdrop said:


> i am new to askaboutmoney and this thread cries out ffor professional advice. are such persons usually slow to give free advice. it is sad to see people endeavouring to be of help when an informed person could put the issue to bed in one response.


An informed person would be aware that they only have a fraction of the information needed to make an informed reply or provide informed advice. 
(Technically, Vanilla has already provided the informed advice. Get a solicitor on the case who can review all the relevant information) 

Without having access to the original planning application, original contracts etc. and having the time (and being paid for providing it) no one (expert or otherwise) can give the OP a truly informed reply.

While AAM is a superb forum for picking up general/generic advice on some legal matters, no public forum can be equipped to deal with a specific legal problem.


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## ang1170 (14 May 2007)

Happy Girl said:


> Will investigate this today. What I do know is that only those who made an original objection to County Council re this application can make appeal to Bord Pleanala. But will look at possibility of group appeal and maybe just get everybody who objected originally to sign the appeal letter. Anybody else with any further advice?


 
Just seen this thread for the 1st time. A few things:

- It shouldn't matter how many objections are made to An Bord Pleanala: it's not a vote! It's the content of the objections that matter. You can lodge a single joint appeal: in fact, anything more is arguably a waste of money.

- I'm surprised you had difficulty in getting details of the original planning application: the council are legally obliged to make this publically available to anyone who wants it.

- The original permission for the estate most likely had provisions in it for the amount of public open space (which is what this sounds like) provided. You should also check out the county development plan for your area, which will have similar provisions. This may we well be the most likely grounds on which an appeal can be made (assuming you don't have any legal title to the ground)


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## Happy Girl (16 May 2007)

Update. In with solicitor today who stated that it is more a planning consultant that we need in this case. We have none in the area and would be obliged if anybody could recommend a Planning Consultant who might take us on. Anywhere in Dublin/Meath/Louth/Cavan areas. Also any advice much appreciated. Feel like we having doors closed in our faces every time but too stubborn to give in without a fight


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## MOB (16 May 2007)

"So add 14objectors @ 210euro each together with the solicitors fee and residents association will go bankrupt."

I am sorry to depress you, but I am afraid if you are really serious about this matter, you are going to have to adjust your financial expectations somewhat.

I am not at all surprised that a solicitor shows no enthusiasm for the job.
I don't know what sort of solicitor's fee was being talked about, but 14 x 210 (which as other posters have pointed out is 13x210 too much) comes to less than €3,000.00   If your budget does not stretch this far, then you certainly will have a problem in getting the services of a professional.   Do you think that the well-heeled objectors to Sean Dunne's plans had any trouble getting people to act for them? 

Bear in mind that a planning appeal could (though it is most unlikely in this case) go to an oral hearing.  Any person taking on this job will be conscious of the fact that the file could 'grow legs'.

My firm did an oral hearing once (which went on four about four days)  for a residents association plus a few local clubs\associations.  We got a 200-unit development shot down.   The residents association balked at our fee of circa (if I remember rightly) £5,000.00 plus VAT and ended up paying about a third of it - but they had to do without us when the second planning application went through.  

I learned a valuable lesson: cash up front for committee\residents association clients.

It is entirely possible that a fairly basic planning objection, put together with perhaps some small amount of professional input, might be enough to block this development.   But if it isn't enough, will you be kicking yourselves afterwards at the thought that you could have done more?   Only you can answer this.


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