# Management companies & Gardening contractors



## NorthDrum (3 Sep 2008)

Hi,

Just a few facts first:

My Estate: 50 Houses 12 apts all in one management company, Apts pay higher mgt fee to cover their block insurance
Communal areas and grassy areas very small ( I know i cant give definitive figures and people can only comment on facts, but take it from me the grassy areas are small).
Area is Bettystown (for anybody who has any contractor suggestions)
Im on a residents committee and am currently "haggling" with my management company (M.C) over the cutting of the grass in our estate. The M.C. said a couple of months ago that they ran out of funds (or something to that effect) so there would be no more grass cutting (which is the only realy physical service we get or need). They said however that the money for next years Apt assurance premium was covered (something that must be discussed but thats another days arguement).

Anyways, we already thought that the quotes they were getting for the grass was robbery at best but they have told us that the gardener now wants €1800 to cut the grass up to date. I asked for cost of hiring machinery and time spent etc but the M.C came back saying that the Contracter said that he would have to come 3 times in total to properly do the grass. Now baring in mind that it definantly wont take him even half a day to cut was he has to ( I have seen him cut the grass in under an hour) I dont understand how even 1 guy working 3 whole days could charge so much, even 2 guys (but there is only 1). 

So I asked the M.C to get quotes off other contractors and they said that its too late in the year to be getting quotes (which i find just stupid) for this kind of job. I suggested that I could get a couple of residents that would do it for a fraction of the price and the M.C. said that it has to be a confirmed reputable contractor that they agree on. Is this true?

The questions I have is:

1. Are grass cutters like this as expensive as we are being advised ( I know people dont know the area in question but it is definantly not even half a days work for 1 person, a guy comes round in a tractor )

2. Is it impossible to get a quote off a contractor at this time of year as the M.C advised us?

3. Are the M.C. taking us for mugs. Take into account their actions along with things they have told us in the past have had questionable motives proven on the M.C.s part so we dont really trust them.

Thanks


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## ClubMan (3 Sep 2008)

You seem to be painting the management company as "them" to your "us". This is not the case. *YOU *and your fellow property owners *ARE *the management company. If you are not satisfied with how things are being run and how tenders are being managed then why not run for election to the board of directors and take direct control over matters? In many cases there will be no rush from other company members/shareholders to do this and others will be happy to let give you a free run!


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## Bubbly Scot (3 Sep 2008)

> The questions I have is:
> 
> 1. Are grass cutters like this as expensive as we are being advised ( I know people dont know the area in question but it is definantly not even half a days work for 1 person, a guy comes round in a tractor )


 
Difficult to say without knowing the area in question but from what you tell us, it seems expensive.



> 2. Is it impossible to get a quote off a contractor at this time of year as the M.C advised us?


 
It's never impossible to get a quote off a contractor (or three), the difficulty will be getting your agent/directors to agree to use your preferred choice. I refer you back to what Clubman said above..you need to get yourself elected as a Director in order to implement this.



> 3. Are the M.C. taking us for mugs. Take into account their actions along with things they have told us in the past have had questionable motives proven on the M.C.s part so we dont really trust them.


 
Again, I refer you back to Clubmans suggestion, they only way it will probably change is if you make it change.

I think you're referring to the managing AGENT (the company engaged to manage your complex) as oppossed to the management company (you and your fellow owners).


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## NorthDrum (3 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> You seem to be painting the management company as "them" to your "us". This is not the case. *YOU *and your fellow property owners *ARE *the management company. If you are not satisfied with how things are being run and how tenders are being managed then why not run for election to the board of directors and take direct control over matters? In many cases there will be no rush from other company members/shareholders to do this and others will be happy to let give you a free run!


 

I know what you mean (Im always doing that). When I say management company I meant Management agents.

They have misinformed us on a few things (some which a meeting with my local TD clarified) and nobody is willing to committ to being a director (Builders still Directores of M.C). Particularly in light of the recent flooding in our estate (but we arent sure if being a director makes you liable in any way for these kind of events).

The whole area of Management companies and management agents is so unclear its not funny. Yes there is information out there (which we have sourced) but its certainly not the easiest thing to confirm (especially if your management company isnt exactly the most helpful).


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## NorthDrum (3 Sep 2008)

Just one more question on this, has anybody got any advice on becoming a director of a management company (ie any liabilities on director). Im just concerned being self employed it could effect my business if there is a case taken against the management company.

Is there any pitfalls to being a director, apart from the obvious trivial stick you may get from neighbours!!!


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## dem_syhp (3 Sep 2008)

The management company should be paying directors liability insurance - I would think regardless of who's director. 

See here for more information

If none of you will commit to being a director how can you complain about the company not doing what you want.  The directors tell the management agent how to act on their behalf.


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## dem_syhp (3 Sep 2008)

Sorry - over lapped with your last post. 

Pitfalls - time and grief....but if you want to get anything sorted it's the only way.


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## NorthDrum (3 Sep 2008)

dem_syhp said:


> The management company should be paying directors liability insurance - I would think regardless of who's director.
> 
> See here for more information
> 
> If none of you will commit to being a director how can you complain about the company not doing what you want. The directors tell the management agent how to act on their behalf.


 
Thanks for the info on the director.

In all fairness I think its understandable that people dont want to be directors of companies they know nothing about (particularly if you are not sure of anything to do with directorship). Its just crazy that when you move into an estate with a management company that the only information source you originally get is from the management agents and you are expected to agree to being a director with a complete stranger. I know its not always this bad but to the average joe soap this is in essence the reality of it.


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## ClubMan (3 Sep 2008)

Becoming a director of a management company carries with it the same or similar responsibilities as becoming a director of any (presumably) limited company. Not everybody can or wants to shoulder such responsibilities. However if you are not happy with the management agent in place then at least lobby your company to consider putting in place specific performance targets and/or shopping around for a "better" agent?


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## NorthDrum (3 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> at least lobby your company to consider putting in place specific performance targets and/or shopping around for a "better" agent?


 
Already given a link to residents to this thread and that suggestin has gone down well. Thanks for that . . .


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## paulo99 (3 Sep 2008)

Why dont you request a schedule of works from management company?

Might be worth looking at this post, local enough to you, they are Drogheda though another post says Dundalk.


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## ClubMan (3 Sep 2008)

NorthDrum said:


> Its just crazy that when you move into an estate with a management company that the only information source you originally get is from the management agents and you are expected to agree to being a director with a complete stranger. I know its not always this bad but to the average joe soap this is in essence the reality of it.


There is plenty of information out there about privately managed developments, management companies etc. For example the _NCA _have some guides on www.consumerconnect.ie. People need to make informed decisions before buying in a privately managed development. Nobody is forced to do this. Nobody should go forward for election to directorship without doing some research.


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## NorthDrum (3 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> There is plenty of information out there about privately managed developments, management companies etc. For example the _NCA _have some guides on www.consumerconnect.ie. People need to make informed decisions before buying in a privately managed development. Nobody is forced to do this. Nobody should go forward for election to directorship without doing some research.


 
When I first moved in here the first thing I did was google as much about M.C's as I could and there was little or no help available. I have talked to several local T'D's who admit that certainly up until recently the area of management companys and committees wasnt clearly defined and is still certainly not acceptably regulated (they told me new regulation out soon). 

Its things like this that create untrust in this area of House Buying (difficult to obtain simple answers to simple questions). Its also an area were vunerable people (older people or the less educated) can be taken advantage of by either management agents (not saying they all do) or the resident committee themselves (as I have seen factions of my own committee trying to push their own agenda's).

Even well structured well experienced management companies dont find it easy at the start & only the lucky ones end up eventually with a balanced well run estate. 

Out of curiosity are you or have you ever been on a management committee? 

If you say yes then you must be on the luckiest most obliging committee ever because you would know that such as life, its not simply a case of reading a brochure on it and making an informed decision. Its particularly difficult at the start when all residents are going to meetings everybody has their own views/opinions and nobody really knows what the hell they are supposed to be doing.

Theres professional help for other services (valuations etc), why not the same for setting up and running management companies (ie impartial assistance).

Perhaps I have been unlucky in having a very poor management Agent, but without talking to experienced people who want to help its very difficult to find definitive answers to certain questions.


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## ClubMan (3 Sep 2008)

NorthDrum said:


> Out of curiosity are you or have you ever been on a management committee?


Not sure what you mean by management *committee *but I live in a privately managed area, am a member of the management company, try to attend the general meetings and participate in matters but am not a director and would not be inclined to assume such a role. When I bought the house my solicitor pointed out some of the implications of the property being privately managed. I weighed up the pros and cons and made an informed choice to buy even though I would have preferred a property in an estate taken in charge by the local authority and involving no management fees.



NorthDrum said:


> Perhaps I have been unlucky in having a very poor management Agent, but without talking to experienced people who want to help its very difficult to find definitive answers to certain questions.


As as already been said - if the management agent is the problem then work towards getting the management company to rectify this situation or switch to another one.


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## Fr Dougal (4 Sep 2008)

To answer your original question, yes that does sound expensive. When we went looking for quotes for the same in our largish estate with three large green areas, the quotes varied widely with some companies insisting on cutting the grass all year round (even though it doesn't really grow in winter), for some it didn't even include removing and disposing of the grass. We pay about €400 per cut and the contractor turns up with about three or four guys, and it usually takes a full day (sometimes they come back for a second day to finish it off) with three tractors on the go, they do a really nice job and remove all the grass cuttings when they're done. Theres only another couple of cuts left this year and then we will stop cutting.

We have the same dificulties trying to get people to become directors in our MC but we have an active hard working residents committee. At the moment we are exploring the possibility of dissolving the MC and asking the local authority to 'take in charge' the estate.


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## ClubMan (4 Sep 2008)

Fr Dougal said:


> we are exploring the possibility of dissolving the MC and asking the local authority to 'take in charge' the estate.


Whatever you do don't do it in that order or you could end up in a sticky situation!


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## AKA (7 Sep 2008)

We are exploring all ideas too.  One of the ideas I'm exploring is moving 

Just came home to see that grass has been cut in half the estate - as the management company for one half of the estate has gone into debt.  While I'm part of the management company that is not in debt my house faces onto the half of the estate where the grass isn't cut.

The problem is that the agents haven't collected for debt early enough - and the process takes too long.  We ask the agents for info on the debt collecting procedures and no response.

In relation to grass cutting we went and got 3 quotes for grass cutting that were approx 1/3 the rate our agent charges.  €30K vs €11K for 35 cuts or something like that - I'd say we are lucky if they do half that - the agent doesn't cut the grass the amount they bill for.  We asked for a log book but none has been forthcoming.

Changing gardener without becoming a director is difficult.  Getting someone to work with the agent is proving tricky.  If we were directors of the management company this would be easier but no-one wants this responsibility especially with the quality of finish on the estate.  

We don't want to become directors as we want the estate TIC by the council.  However, our council doesn't cut grass so we'd have to collect for that  and since people won't pay the management fee I'm unsure they would pay for grass cutting.  I have a busy full time job - do I want to be collecting money for grass cutting - we already give lots of time to the residents association.

I'd have no problem becoming director of an apartment block but not for a housing estate.    

I'm looking forward to the local elections next year already - maybe something will be done then.


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## Fr Dougal (8 Sep 2008)

> Whatever you do don't do it in that order or you could end up in a sticky situation!



How do you mean....?


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## AKA (11 Sep 2008)

See below for a taste of the implications:

[broken link removed]

If your Council doesn't have a TIC policy then it could take many years to resolve this.
Who is going to collect the fees for grass cutting?


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