# Reduction in working hours



## borrowed (24 Jan 2008)

If any of you could offer some advice with this I'd be most grateful...

I'm currently working full-time in a retail outlet. As some of you may have noticed, shoppers haven't been doing as much shopping since Christmas and so business is not exactly booming. If I was to take on a part-time position in my job if requested by my boss would I be entitled to any benefits to make up my loss in earnings? My current 39 hours would be reduced to roughly 29 hours per week. My hours would probably be increased again in the summer when it's busier. I like this job and don't want to leave but could not afford to work part-time alone.
If I was entitled to benefits of some kind how would I go about this?

Thanks for reading...


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## aircobra19 (24 Jan 2008)

I think you'd be better off finding a better job to be honest. Working part time also effects more than simply your wage packet. 



> As a part-time worker you may not be making the maximum amount of PRSI contributions each year. The tax year and therefore the Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) contribution week start on the 1st of January every year.  As a result, the *PRSI contribution week* can differ from the *working week*_._  If you are in part-time work you need to be fully aware of the possible effect this can have on your social welfare entitlements through the social insurance system.



http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...prsi/part-time-work-and-social-insurance-prsi


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## borrowed (24 Jan 2008)

I really don't want to leave this job just yet. I like it and it would more than likely just be part-time until June. I just want to be clear about what my entitlements would be in this situation.


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## mathepac (24 Jan 2008)

borrowed said:


> I really don't want to leave this job just yet. I like it and it would more than likely just be part-time until June. I just want to be clear about what my entitlements would be in this situation.



If you enjoy the job, that counts for a lot, and it sounds like they value your contribution given the new arrangements.

With reduced hours, your pay will obviously be effected, but your tax liability will be less, so its not all bad news.

Working 29 hours your PRSI entitlements should not be effected as you will still be credited with a full insurable week.

I don't know your circumstances, but as poster above suggested check  your situation.  If you have dependents, you might qualify for family income supplement, while on reduced hours.


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## borrowed (24 Jan 2008)

I'm getting confused by all these social welfare payments requirements. I was just looking at Jobseeker's Benefit. Confusing. Would I be then classed as a systematic short-term worker? Temporary part-time employment? 5 of the 29 hours would be on a Sunday, which is excluded from JB. It says 3 days out of 6 consecutive days must be unemployed. I'd be working 4 days excluding the Sunday. Two days at 8 hours, then another two days at 4 hours. Could the 4 hour days be combined to count as 1 normal working day for me, as I would previously have been working? Also looking at this I may be entitled to a medical card under this scheme. I have suffered from an undiagnosed medical condition as a result of an operation for over a year, it causes me pain and uncomfortableness frequently and I sometimes have no choice but to ring in sick. I have hospital appointments every month or two, but am getting nowhere towards being completely healthy in this goddamn Irish health system. So a medical card and lesser sick days taken should also be weighed up in this situation, right? Moving to part-time is beginning to seem like a good idea, or am I totally ineligible for this Jobseeker's Benefit thing? Thanks for the replies so far!


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## Welfarite (24 Jan 2008)

Don't get confused by hours worked and days worked. Essentially, any day that you work (even one hour) is considered as a "day of employment". SW use a 6 day week, excluding Sunday.
So for example, if you worked 5 hours Sun, 8 hours Mon, 8 hours Tues, 4 hours Weds and 4 hours Thurs every week, you would only have 2 days in 6 and would not get any SW.


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## borrowed (24 Jan 2008)

Any information I have found on this says that Sundays are excluded from the working week? Are they going to be included in my situtation?

On a seperate note, out of curiosity, how does SW work for an employee who would still be working everyday, but for 4 hours each day instead of 8? Their hours and wages will have been halved, are they still entitled to nothing from SW just because they are still working everyday? That doesn't seem that fair to me but maybe I am missing the point of it.


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## FredBloggs (24 Jan 2008)

Not exactly sure of the ins and outs of it all but I do know that two people I used work with had their hours reduced so they only worked 2 or 3 days a week.  They used get SW for the other days and they had a form that had to be filled in by the wages section each week for the SW office confirming the days they worked and didn't work.  Why don't you ring the SW and ask them what you'd be entitled to?


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## Welfarite (24 Jan 2008)

Sundays are excluded from the SW week. They pay for 6 days (Mon-Sat). In the example I gave you will have worked 4 of those days adn are not entitled to SW for the other two.

In your other comment, youa re right. If a person worked even one hour every day, it excludes them from claiming SW for those days.


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## borrowed (24 Jan 2008)

"*Systematic short-time working* This situation arises if you are _normally working full-time but short-time working is introduced on a temporary basis._ You will continue to pay PRSI in the normal way. If the short-time work involves a three-day week, you may get Jobseeker's Benefit for the other two days, provided you meet the other relevant conditions that apply to Jobseeker's Benefit. In this situation, the social welfare week is five days and you will get two-fifths of the normal amount of Jobseeker's Benefit. There are no limits on how long short-time working can continue."



Does this apply to me? If I can arrange the part-time hours to be only 3 days a week (4 if you count Sunday, which I'm still not sure of), I could claim this? Basically, I would be moving to this part-time position in order to save the job of another part-timer. There is 2 full-timers, of which I am one,  2 part-time and 1 weekender. One of the part-timers has already left because of lack of hours and now the hours of the remaining part-time hours available will have to be cut because of the need to give the full-timers their contracted 39 hours. It is my decision in the end but my boss asked if I would consider becoming part-time until things pick up again, in order to give the other part-timer more hours. If I am going to be at a disadvantagey financially by doing this obviously I will retain my full-time position. However we all like our jobs and I don't want to put anybody out of work.


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## borrowed (24 Jan 2008)

Welfarite said:


> Sundays are excluded from the SW week. They pay for 6 days (Mon-Sat). *In the example I gave you will have worked 4 of those days adn are not entitled to SW for the other two.
> *
> In your other comment, youa re right. If a person worked even one hour every day, it excludes them from claiming SW for those days.



I would be working 8 hours Tues, 8 hours Wed and 8 hours on Thurs/Fri.


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## Welfarite (24 Jan 2008)

Have a look at this from www.welfare.ie:

There are 3 categories of claimant who may qualify for JB while partially employed. They are:

Systematic Short-time workers (SST)
Casual workers, and
Part-time workers.
To qualify for JB, a person must be unemployed for at least 3 days in 6 (see "Period of Interruption of Employment") and, *except in the case of casual workers*, must suffer a substantial loss of employment.
Deciding Officers should approach the matter as follows:

Is the person a systematic short-time worker? (if s/he is, the condition regarding substantial loss has automatically been satisfied).
If not, is s/he a casual worker? (if s/he is, the condition does not apply)
If neither, the person must be a part-time worker to whom the substantial loss rule applies.
*(c) Classification of Casual/Part-Time Employees for JB purposes*

There is no situation where a claimant can be automatically classified as either a casual or a part-time employee. Each case must be examined on its own merits. In determining whether a person is engaged in casual employment, Deciding Officers should have regard to the following:

the claimant's employment history,
any fluctuation in the number of days worked,
the existence of a written contract of employment or an unwritten understanding between the employer and employee,
the claimant's commitment to a specific employer, e.g. membership of the company's pension scheme or membership of a trade union,
that if an employee is in receipt of a set wage, it is a strong indicator that his/her days of employment do not vary in line with fluctuations in his/her employer's business.


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## Welfarite (24 Jan 2008)

borrowed said:


> I would be working 8 hours Tues, 8 hours Wed and 8 hours on Thurs/Fri.


 
you said you/d be working 4 days excluding Sunday in an earlier post.


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## borrowed (24 Jan 2008)

Welfarite said:


> you said you/d be working 4 days excluding Sunday in an earlier post.



Yes, that was with 4 hours spread over 2 days but I could just work 8 hours on 1 day instead if it makes this easier. So Tues/Wed/Thurs and Sunday working. Am I right in thinking then that I could claim JB for Mon/Fri/Sat (or just 2 days if 1 is counted as a day off?) and my pay from employer for hours worked on Sundays would not be affected?

Thanks for all the help with this, I feel like I'll be able to make a very informed decision now that I'm getting things straight in my head. All the different classifications and rules are confusing in the beginning.


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## Welfarite (24 Jan 2008)

Yep, you got it now  If you have kids, you should look at the FIS earnings limits on www.welfare.ie as you may now qualify for that.


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## sunnygirl (25 Jan 2008)

I think this is a very grey area. To my understanding, you are only entitled to benefit if your employer cuts your hours. From what Ive read, you seem to say you may have some choice in the matter as to a) whether your hours are cut at all and b) bundling all your hours into a few days so you can claim benefit for the days you dont work.
There are very many people like myself who for various family/childcare reasons must opt to work part-time. I have no option to claim benefit for the days I dont work, its just a hit my husband and myself must take.
I also have heard of some employers who will *agree* part time working hours with the employee and then sign SW form for employee for days they dont work. This may be a WIN / WIN situation for the employer / employee, but its the taxpayer who must pay the benefit.
I do not think Deciding Officers always do their job well.


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## csirl (25 Jan 2008)

Is it possible for your employer to make some staff redundant and keep the rest on full time hours rather than just reducing everyones hours?


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## Welfarite (25 Jan 2008)

sunnygirl said:


> I do not think Deciding Officers always do their job well.




What exactly do you mean by this?


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## sunnygirl (28 Jan 2008)

what i mean by this is, employers sometimes sign form to say there is only, for example, 3 days work available for a person, even if that person has requested a shorter working week. The person receives benefit for the other days. Surely the Deciding Officer should always thoroughly investigate circumstances which led to change in working pattern.


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## Welfarite (28 Jan 2008)

It would be inpractical to assume that every person making such a claim is not being truthful and "thoroughly investigate circumstances". The 99% of people who claim honestly would have unjustifiable delays in getting payments if the DO took such a line. I don't think you can justify a sweeping statement as above with such an argument and blame all Decinign Officers for not doing their job well when an employee is in collusion with an employer and fraudulently claiming SW.


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## sunnygirl (28 Jan 2008)

What I said was, I dont think Deciding Officers *always* do their job well. Furthermore, Im not so sure about the accuracy of you 99% of honest claimaints. Where did u get that figure from?


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