# Sick during Annual Leave was "Hassle over sick certificate"



## kiwifruit (31 May 2007)

Just wondering if anyone has views or an answer to my situation.
I took this week off work as holidays as my missus just had a baby. I let work know well in advance. On Monday, I felt sick and went to my GP, she told me I had an infection and gave me a sick certificate for work for the week. I rang work today to let them know about it. I was told that because I booked the holidays first, I will have to use my holiday days even though im sick. I was hoping to use the note  which would mean that i would be able to use my week holidays later on in the year. But its a bit stink that work wont acknowledge my sick certificate. Any advice will be most welcome


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## Gabriel (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

You booked holidays...you fell sick during your holidays. 

Now you want work to give you your holidays back???

Am I missing something really obvious here? You are sick during your holidays...bad luck and all that...but what has it got to do with your work?


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## Purple (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Gabriel said:


> You booked holidays...you fell sick during your holidays.
> 
> Now you want work to give you your holidays back???
> 
> Am I missing something really obvious here? You are sick during your holidays...bad luck and all that...but what has it got to do with your work?


Exactly


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## Seagull (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

It depends on the employment contract. If I produce a doctor's cert for a period when I was taking leave, I get the leave back.


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## Mel (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

from citizens info.ie: 

*Annual leave and sick leave*

If you are ill while you are on annual leave, you should get a medical certificate from your family doctor (GP) as soon as possible to cover the days that you were sick and give this to your employer as soon as you return to work. In this way, the _sick days_ will not count as annual leave and will be available to you at a later date.

(HOWEVER...)

Sickness during the leave year will reduce the total number of hours worked by an employee and can therefore affect your entitlement to annual leave. For example, a full-time employee who works 40 hours per week will accumulate the necessary 1,365 hours in the leave year after just over 34 weeks working to qualify for the minimum amount of annual leave (that is, 4 weeks). Absence from work through sickness would need to be extensive (18 weeks or more) before it affected that employee's annual leave. 

link is here - http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...ave-and-holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays


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## TheBlock (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

I believe from my limited knowledge of employment law that the employer has to accept the sick note and re-instate your holiday entitlements.


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## whistler (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Gabriel said:


> You booked holidays...you fell sick during your holidays.
> 
> Now you want work to give you your holidays back???
> 
> Am I missing something really obvious here? You are sick during your holidays...bad luck and all that...but what has it got to do with your work?


 
Wow. Don't give this poor new father an inch whatever you do. Thanks Mel for clearing that up.


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## Gabriel (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Mel said:


> from citizens info.ie:
> 
> *Annual leave and sick leave*
> 
> ...



I stand corrected. It's bizarre legislation but I still stand corrected.

Next time I'm abroad and have a deli belly it's on my company!!


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## Purple (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Gabriel said:


> I stand corrected. It's bizarre legislation but I still stand corrected.
> 
> Next time I'm abroad and have a deli belly it's on my company!!


I agree with you, it is bizarre. 
I presume you would have have to give back your holiday pay if you don't get paid sick leave?


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## Mel (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

It is an odd one - it only stuck in my mind when i saw it before because it seemed so strange. I suppose the normal sick pay conditions per contract would apply? I've never actually heard of anyone claiming back days like that though.


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## Gemstone (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

I have worked for several multinationals and reinstating holiday entitlements on production of a medical cert is not unusual.


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## athens2004 (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

Where I work if your produce a cert when you are on holidays you can cancell holidays and take them some other time.


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## kiwifruit (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

Thanks to all who replied,especially Whistler,as the main thing is the baby i suppose. Yeah,im doing the night feeds. Thanks a million to Mel as without that I would have probably given in. And a muted thanks for Gabriel and purple for their insight even though it was a bit harsh,lighten up lads.Have you ever pulled a sickie,I hope not.
Cheers


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## dble8 (31 May 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

it really depends on if you got the 2much job or not as well.
if you like it then stay, if it doesn't really cut it then do what you really like 
nothing like doing your favourite job, like me, I take care of our 14 month old son during the 4 day week then work 1/2 day thurs fri sat doing landscape /garden design. love it, hated working for 'the man' so i left and haven't looked back


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## Joe1234 (1 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Gabriel said:


> Next time I'm abroad and have a deli belly it's on my company!!



But only if you get a sick cert, presumably.


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## Purple (1 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



kiwifruit said:


> Thanks to all who replied,especially Whistler,as the main thing is the baby i suppose. Yeah,im doing the night feeds. Thanks a million to Mel as without that I would have probably given in. And a muted thanks for Gabriel and purple for their insight even though it was a bit harsh,lighten up lads.Have you ever pulled a sickie,I hope not.
> Cheers


You're welcome . I did the night feeds on my first two kids (and about half them on the third) but didn't have to take time off (it went on for four months so I don't think holidays would cover it anyway). It's ok; my wife thinks I'm great so you don't have to comment . I don't get sick pay (and I'm the boss!) so it's not an issue for me anyway.


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## Erasure (1 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



> it really depends on if you got to 2much job or not as well.
> if you like it then stay, if it doesn't really cut it then do what you really like
> nothing like doing your favourite job, like me, I take care of our 14 month old son during the 4 day week then work 1/2 day thurs fri sat doing landscape /garden design. love it, hated working for 'the man' so i left and haven't looked back


 
I'm confused - did the OP say they didn't like their job?


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## aircobra19 (1 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

Where I am we get it back aswell. In the past I didn't. From a practical point of view if some is off on holiday they presumably need a rest or the time off for some reason. Just because they are sick doesn't mean that need hasn't gone away, and probably is even more needed after being sick. Why drag them back into work worse off than when they left. That would be "bizarre". I don't see the sense in wearing down a good employee like that. 

If you employed a robot instead of a human, you still have maintain and service it. You wouldn't invest in one then run it into the ground through lack of maintenance.


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## whistler (1 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Purple said:


> I don't get sick pay (and I'm the boss!)


 
Assume Gabriel is an employer also


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## Purple (1 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



whistler said:


> Assume Gabriel is an employer also


Why?


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## whistler (1 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

It just seems that Gabriel attacked kiwi for even suggesting such a thing, without having anything to back up his comment.


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## Erasure (1 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



> It just seems that Gabriel attacked kiwi for even suggesting such a thing, without having anything to back up his comment


 
Agreed - and its those employers that lose excellent staff.  i would get the days back too.


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## lucan 07 (1 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Seagull said:


> It depends on the employment contract. If I produce a doctor's cert for a period when I was taking leave, I get the leave back.


so do i .
our company allow you the time back


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## davfran (3 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

kiwifruit, congrats on the birth of your baby,hope everything works out for the best, no pun intended.


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## kiwifruit (3 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*

thanks again to all for the encouraging words..im looking forward to using my weeks holidays again in August sometime....
cheers


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## redchariot (4 Jun 2007)

My company also allow you to off-set sick days against annual leave, which is quite good; not that I ever needed to. On the other hand, I do think that it is a bit bizarre that legislation allows for this, I mean it is a bit unfair on the employer. The other thing, not all companies give sick pay


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## dodo (4 Jun 2007)

If you where to go sick say for a week when you where thinking of taking holidays then it would even things off. Do you get paid for been sick ,But you seemed to have had bad luck which is not your jobs fault, you where still at home with your family which was the reason you wanted time off, are you not entitled to leave or birth of you child, alot of places you can get 3 days off for a childs birth


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## aircobra19 (4 Jun 2007)

redchariot said:


> ...On the other hand, I do think that it is a bit bizarre that legislation allows for this, I mean it is a bit unfair on the employer. ...



I don't follow. Whats unfair on the employer?


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Jun 2007)

I had a builder due out to my house last week to do a job which should have taken Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. His quote was for €2400 -labour only. 

He rang on Monday to say he was sick and couldn't do the work. But as he had planned to work for me for those days, he has decided to charge me anyway. 

He is on holidays this week, and surely I can't expect him to take time out of his holidays to do the work he was supposed to do last week? 

Brendan


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## Marion (4 Jun 2007)

Gosh no! It's a sunny week ahead.

Good story though Brendan!

Marion


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## PM1234 (4 Jun 2007)

A friend of mine had an appointment with her doctor. She arrived with some minutes to spare but when she was parking her car she accidentally reversed into another car. After writing out her details and leaving a note for the owner of the other car she made her way to the doctors surgery. 

The receptionist in the surgery advised her she was ten minutes late for her appointment and could not be seen.

She was charged the standard fee of 50e as this is the surgerys policy for 'no shows'.


Surely organisations and companies cover themselves for sick leave to some extent like the above surgery and by the same token surely employees should be allowed annual leave as well as sick leave.


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## RainyDay (4 Jun 2007)

Brendan said:


> I had a builder due out to my house last week to do a job which should have taken Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. His quote was for €2400 -labour only.
> 
> He rang on Monday to say he was sick and couldn't do the work. But as he had planned to work for me for those days, he has decided to charge me anyway.
> 
> He is on holidays this week, and surely I can't expect him to take time out of his holidays to do the work he was supposed to do last week?


There is no comparison in many, many ways between the employer/employee relationship and the contractor relationship.


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## Gabriel (4 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



whistler said:


> It just seems that Gabriel attacked kiwi for even suggesting such a thing, without having anything to back up his comment.



Whistler...Sammie...you're both fired!! 

As stated I stand corrected on the legal aspects of the original query.

I also stand by my original comments. The law might be on the op's side in this instance...but then the law is sometimes wrong.


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## aircobra19 (4 Jun 2007)

Neither of those stories is analogy of the OP situation.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Jun 2007)

Damn! 

I have just had a fax from him this morning. It's in Greek, but apparently it's a doctors note. He is not well on his holidays and the cert is for four days. Apparently, I have to pay for this as well. 

Let's be fair though. We don't actually expect the poor builder to forgo his holidays because he is sick? Surely it's only fair that I pay it?

So that's €4,800 it's costing me so far, and not a brick laid.

Brendan


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Jun 2007)

Just checked and it's the law. If it's the law, it must be fair. Aren't all laws fair? 

Apparently, the Protection of the Employment Rights of Self-employed Builders (Who Were Employed By Grasping Employers) Act (1874) is still valid in Ireland as it has not been repealed. 

If the client's income exceeds £10/15/6 per annum, they must protect the builder against any loss of income due to sickness. Does anyone know if this income limit has been increased? 

Brendan


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## diarmuidc (5 Jun 2007)

PM1234 said:


> The receptionist in the surgery advised her she was ten minutes late for her appointment and could not be seen.
> 
> She was charged the standard fee of 50e as this is the surgerys policy for 'no shows'.


I hope your friend will take her business elsewhere and encourage others to do so also?


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## whistler (5 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Gabriel said:


> Whistler...Sammie...you're both fired!!


 
Ha ha, absolutely delighted I don't work for you!!


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## jrewing (5 Jun 2007)

PM1234 said:


> The receptionist in the surgery advised her she was ten minutes late for her appointment and could not be seen.
> 
> She was charged the standard fee of 50e as this is the surgerys policy for 'no shows'.


 
And I suppose if she arrived and had to wait for 45 mins, the surgery would discount her invoice ? 
I would not have accepted this from anyone working in the medical profession, where you are often left to wait over an hour for private consultations, and then charged over Eur 100 for your 10 mins....


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## aircobra19 (5 Jun 2007)

jrewing said:


> And I suppose if she arrived and had to wait for 45 mins, the surgery would discount her invoice ?
> I would not have accepted this from anyone working in the medical profession, where you are often left to wait over an hour for private consultations, and then charged over Eur 100 for your 10 mins....



My dentist tried this on me once I and I refused to pay it as I'm often waiting  10-20mins before an appointment.


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## aircobra19 (5 Jun 2007)

Brendan said:


> Just checked and it's the law. If it's the law, it must be fair. Aren't all laws fair?
> 
> Apparently, the Protection of the Employment Rights of Self-employed Builders (Who Were Employed By Grasping Employers) Act (1874) is still valid in Ireland as it has not been repealed.
> 
> ...



Can you link to where where you are getting this from?


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## Purple (5 Jun 2007)

aircobra19 said:


> Can you link to where where you are getting this from?


I think you are missing the point.
Excellent posts Brendan


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## aircobra19 (5 Jun 2007)

Purple said:


> I think you are missing the point.
> Excellent posts Brendan



How so?

Getting your annual leave entitlement back when you're sick, from an employer is a completely different issue to getting paid for sick leave. 

A contractor getting paid for sick leave is even further from the original subject of the thread. I've never heard of a client paying a contractor for sick leave. Can he link to where hes getting this info.


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## ClubMan (5 Jun 2007)

I agree that this thread has gone a bit off topic and is missing the point of the original post which was specifically to do with regaining holiday entitlements when certified sick while on leave and which has been answered earlier. I too am surprised that one can do this under current employment legislation. But disucssion of whether or not this is logical etc. is a separate issue surely? Some of the earlier points and posts are just confusing the issue as far as I can see. Including some of the anecdotes which, while amusing and maybe even genuine, are irrelevant here.


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## aircobra19 (5 Jun 2007)

Could you split the thread?


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## MugsGame (5 Jun 2007)

The law does not require employers to pay employees while they are on sick leave. The law ensures that people get their full annual leave entitlement. If they are sick, this does not count as annual leave. That's all. 

I think it's unreasonable for an employee to expect to be paid for annual leave days they later claim as sick leave. But I guess what's reasonable depends on terms and conditions, and custom and practice within the company. It is reasonable for them to be able to take the paid leave at another time.


Now the real question... I was sick yesterday and my company usually pays me while on sick leave. I've requested double time for bank holiday sick pay. Surely this is the least I'm entitled to?


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## Trafford (5 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Gabriel said:


> You booked holidays...you fell sick during your holidays.
> 
> Now you want work to give you your holidays back???
> 
> Am I missing something really obvious here? You are sick during your holidays...bad luck and all that...but what has it got to do with your work?


 
It might seem strange to you but it's in my contract of employment that certified sick days falling during annual leave will result in annual leave being "returned". I was very pleasantly surprised when I saw it in my contract.


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## Purple (6 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Trafford said:


> in my contract of employment that certified sick days falling during annual leave will result in annual leave being "returned". I was very pleasantly surprised when I saw it in my contract.


 Do you get a max number of certified sick days? Do you get paid the same for a sick day and a days annual leave?


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## aircobra19 (6 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Purple said:


> Do you get a max number of certified sick days? Do you get paid the same for a sick day and a days annual leave?



Why would it be different? If it was to save money wouldn't they just drop paid sick leave?


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## Trafford (7 Jun 2007)

*Re: Hassle over sick certificate*



Purple said:


> Do you get a max number of certified sick days? Do you get paid the same for a sick day and a days annual leave?


 
This is my company's policy:

"If you have 3 days absence through illness, a Doctor's certificate must be submitted (from a Registered Medical Practitioner). If you are absent through illness on a Friday and the following Monday such absence will also require production of a Doctor’s certificate. The Company will treat all cases of illness in a sympathetic manner. However, where there is a persistent problem, it may result in the Company requiring you to have a medical examination with the company Doctor, who will provide a report to the Company. 

Entitlements to pay while on sick leave are as follows:

A maximum of 6 months full basic pay less social welfare entitlements may be allowed in any 12 month period and half basic pay less social welfare entitlements thereafter. This is subject to a maximum of 12 months absence in any four - year period or less."


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## Trafford (7 Jun 2007)

...sorry, to answer your question, yes we do get paid the same for sick days, worked days and annual leave.


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## Purple (7 Jun 2007)

That's some sweet contract you have there Trafford. Do you mind me asking what sector you are in?
If all payments are the same then I don't see why a company would have a problem with allowing you to claim back your annual leave if you were ill,
especially when they pay so many sick days... six months, that's incredible.
On the original question I stand corrected.


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## Trafford (8 Jun 2007)

Purple said:


> That's some sweet contract you have there Trafford. Do you mind me asking what sector you are in?
> If all payments are the same then I don't see why a company would have a problem with allowing you to claim back your annual leave if you were ill,
> especially when they pay so many sick days... six months, that's incredible.
> On the original question I stand corrected.


 

I work in the financial services sector  - banking to be precise. I have to say that my current company is like a Carlsberg Ad., i.e. it's an amazingly generous place to work. The result is the turnover of staff is unbelievably low.


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## aircobra19 (8 Jun 2007)

Purple said:


> That's some sweet contract you have there Trafford. Do you mind me asking what sector you are in?
> If all payments are the same then I don't see why a company would have a problem with allowing you to claim back your annual leave if you were ill,
> especially when they pay so many sick days... six months, that's incredible.
> On the original question I stand corrected.



Whats being paid got to do with it?  Law is you get your holidays back if you are sick. They don't have to pay you for it though.


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