# How long could one wait for witness expenses



## colin79ie (18 Aug 2011)

My friend was a witness in a high court injuries case in May. Due to the distance to travel, she was away for 3 days attending court.

She then submitted her expense claim and has heard nothing since except for an acknowledment of receipt.

Is there a guideline anywhere or could she be waiting a long time. She was quite out of pocket and would not have the means to be waiting for too long.


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## onq (19 Aug 2011)

Don't wait any longer to press for this.

Some solicitors appear to keep money in client accounts for long periods

I once had to threaten legal action after hassling them for 18 months.

They are poor payers at the best of times.

ONQ.


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## mf1 (19 Aug 2011)

"Some shyster solicitors hoard money in client accounts."

Just as a by the way.............some of these shyster solicitors have not yet been paid and I can guarantee you that there is precious little clients' money floating around these days!

In answer to the question, increasingly, professional witnesses are looking for money in advance before agreeing to appear. Precisely because of  the above. In the end it comes down, who (solicitor? client? ) is responsible for the witnesses expenses and , if the witness sues, will that improve their chances of getting paid? 

The Four Courts are full to bursting point with delusional litigants and lawyers with cases that  have little or no prospect of yielding payment or reward.

mf


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## nuac (19 Aug 2011)

In fairness to the Plaintiffs solicitor it can take some time to agree  costs and witness expenses after a decision or settlement of an action.    Some defendant insurance companies will deal with these reasonably soon, others string it out, arguing about every detail.    In sme cases it is necessary to have the costs taxed i.e. decided on by a taxing master in the High Court.    

Ong I note you have made some intelligent posts here from the point of view of an expert witness in architectural / engineering matters.   However your comments about shyster solicitors is  unfair.   Usuallly the solicitor;s fees are not paid until the entire bill for solicitors, barristers, and witnesses reports and attendance have been agreed and paid.     There are strict regulations regarding leaving funds in clients' account and any interest thereon.  ANyhow these days interest is very low,


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## onq (23 Aug 2011)

nuac,

I am happy to withdraw the term "shyster" and I have amended my post to reflect a more balanced comment.

I have a lot of respect for you and mf1 and I regret any offence to either of you or the other apparently competent legals and professionals who post here.

However, the impression I gave of sharp practice being well known in the profession is only too true, speaking from personal experience.

I will be in court in a couple of months time appearing on behalf of a professional who I introduced to a court case and who struck their own deal on fees with the client.

In the case I mentioned in my previous post and in the above case the solicitors were less than professional in their dealings in the case.

I accept that not all solicitors behave like this, but unfortunately I find that lax standards are common enough.


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## onq (23 Aug 2011)

mf1

I am aware that there are a lot of solicitors in pain at the moment because of clients whose affairs are in total disarray.

Quite where the practice arose of clients waiting for courts to decide on costs  to the detriment of witnesses who are out of pocket I don't know.

 I think you'd find the parties would be less  inclined to dither about, expecting others to wait on their pleasure, if they had to make reasonable interim payments.

 As for insurance companies, I previously understood that they have no remit to delay following a court judgement.

Happy to stand corrected on that.


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## McCrack (23 Aug 2011)

onq said:


> Don't wait any longer to press for this.
> 
> Some solicitors appear to keep money in client accounts for long periods
> 
> ...



Very sweeping and disingenuous.

OP as other posters (besides this) have said, it can take quite some time for costs to be agreed and a number of months is not unusual. Until all costs are agreed and paid no payments are made until this has been done.

I can assure you plaintiff solicitors want this done ASAP and they are not dragging it out unnecessarily, they want to get paid just as much as your friend does.


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## onq (24 Aug 2011)

Nothing disingenuous there McCrack - support or withdraw your comments.
My comment reflects my experience and is in no way slanted or biased.

I accept your comment that the plaintiffs solicitor seeks prompt payment.
The problem is that solicitor's timescales tend to seem like glacial movements.

As noted above, most professionals now are taking a much firmer line with appearance fees.
This is especially prudent where it is clear that the party is unlikely to be financially better off after the case.

ONQ.


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## McCrack (24 Aug 2011)

onq re-read your first replying post to the OP (#2)

You tell me what was not sweeping in your claims? I do suspect you have poor opinion on lawyers in general and this masked your initial response.

I think myself and others have explained the issue and reality with party-party costs to the OP.


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## onq (25 Aug 2011)

I defended my comment against your claim that my original comment was disingenuous - I didn't deny it was sweeping.

My later posts commented on the explanations by others of the delays in getting payment and while such may be the case, there is no logical reason for extended delays except to suit the client and/or keeping money in solicitors client accounts.

My posting history to this forum reflects my respect for the people who post here and the profession in general, but I deplore the payment of third parties and witnesses aspect of it.

While another poster suggests that everyone, including plaintiffs solicitors, may have to suffer this unfair wait, I know at least one solicitor who didn't on a case where everyone else did and where they are unlikely to be paid - this is a third case, recently before the courts and separate to the ones I referred to previously.

Instead of defending a convention which puts payment to others on the long finger, I respectfully suggest that it would give a better impression of the profession if posters here at least considered the issue instead of merely giving reasons for it or rebutting it out of hand.

It is an insupportable convention, and points to part of the difficulty litigants have of obtaining legal redress in a timely and cost-effective manner.

The law favours those with money who can wait at the top and and those eligible for FLAC who can wait a the bottom end and the way justice has been delivered has  been the subject of many, many debates over the past ten years.

-------------------------------

On the separate but related issue of client accounts and the monies in them and what interest the client is entitled to, that was covered in this post on AAM

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1029843&postcount=9



> 1.  Solicitor Keeps money in a  client account specifically for that client.
> In this case the Client is entitled to all the interest earned no matter how much it is.
> 
> 2.  Solicitor keeps money in  a general client account.  (Probably an amalgamation of the monies of several separate clients.
> ...


The current position appears to be [broken link removed] and please correct me if I am in error

-------------------------------

On the abuses uncovered in the last three years or so in the way solicitors use their client accounts I note that even a cursory search throws up a lot of results -


http://www.independent.ie/national-...-after-plundering-client-account-1975112.html



[broken link removed]

[broken link removed]


I'll stop there because I don't wish to give the impression that I am trying to bring the entire profession into disrepute or cast aspersions on the posters here.

I am well aware that there are examples of a lack of integrity in all the professions and that each profession has to guard against this.

Nor am I suggesting that the OP should be worried in case the solicitor in this case will do such a thing.

However...

Please accept that laypeople have legitimate concerns about the conventions regarding payment in the profession - which need to be addressed by the profession, urgently IMO - and that there are significant numbers of cases in the public domain where the actions of the few cast aspersions on the integrity of the many.

There is a public relations and regulatory issue here for the profession as a whole which needs to be addressed.

It could start with adopting a practice for the profession of solicitors ensuring that people or firms who have provided a witness service or a professional service are paid by the clients within 30 days from the date of invoice like any other business.

IMO it would give a better impression of the profession and the Incorporated Law Society if this practice was brought in voluntarily as a response to the current economic difficulty an as part of a modernizing and streamlining of the profession.

I am sure there are legitimate reasons for not bringing in this measure, such as increased overheads for accounting for funds all during a case as opposed to at the end and feel free to make them.

ONQ.


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## McCrack (25 Aug 2011)

What on earth are you going on about? You have completely used this thread now for your own selfish rant.

Costs in litigation have to be agreed between the sides and all the many outlays that have been paid such as expert reports etc and ultimately an insurance company needs to write the cheque. There are a lot of interests at stake trying to get a bill settled.

Do you appreciate how costly expert witness reports are? A serious personal injury case can have €3k in report fees (or more) from various medical experts. Do you expect the client/injured party/plaintiff to pay that as they arise out of their own pocket?


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## onq (25 Aug 2011)

Putting a case comprehensively and plainly is not a rant.

The comments I made directly address the issue raised by the OP, namely  the current legal practice which leads to extended delays in paying witnesses. 
In that context, I find it hard to see how one could label my contribution "selfish".

Regarding the suggestion that I have "completely used" this thread, you  are free to make your own use of it within the posting guidelines.

----------------------------

Costs in litigation are not always "agreed between the sides" nor do they always take forever.If the case proceeds to judgement, allowed measured costs arising out of litigation are presented to the court and the court may choose to awards costs or not.
If the parties reach an agreement before the court (which typically happens in the corridor outside) the matter is usually settled within one or two days.
It the matter is being negotiated between listings it can drag on interminably until one side or the other decides to press the case.​----------------------------

Your multiple question above appears pertinent, since it goes to the heart of the issue.



McCrack said:


> _Do you appreciate how costly expert witness reports are? A serious  personal injury case can have €3k in report fees (or more) from various  medical experts. Do you expect the client/injured party/plaintiff to pay  that as they arise out of their own pocket?         _



As an expert witness of more than 10 years standing I know how how expensive expert witness reports can be - a total cost of €3,000 would be low if several professionals were involved.
I also know that by the time the report is presented by the expert witness they will have run up significant in-house costs, sometimes over several months, to produce the report.
A Report going before the court must be of the highest order of professionalism, takes up considerable time of a senior professional and may involve significant court attendances.
So  I _*do*_ "expect the client/injured party/plaintiff to pay  that as they arise out of their own pocket" at least regards the cost of the Report proper, whatever about Court time.

Perhaps personal injury cases where the injured party may be of limited means may be special cases as far as professionals go.
But for a witness of limited means like the OP's friend to attend, surely the question should be reversed - 

_"Do you expect the witness to finance their time supporting the expenses of the client/injured party/plaintiff as they arise - out of their own limited means?"_


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## Leo (26 Aug 2011)

I hope the OP has gotten what they need from this thread alreaady, as it'snow going nowhere...


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