# Childrens Allowance Suspension?



## Papadoc (21 Oct 2008)

This week the missis went to collect her Children's Allowance, only to be told that it had been suspended.  She is not Irish born but has lived here for a number of years.

The department person told her that as a "foreigner", they had sent her a letter back in August checking that she was still in the country.  We received no letter so did not reply.  Therefore the Childrens Allowance was supended.  There was no attempt at a follow up letter or phone call.
We are in the situation of having to effectively re-apply for Children's Allowance, requiring Doctors letters to prove that we still have children etc.

Has this happened to anyone else?  Are non-Irish born Childrens Allowance recipients subject to different rules or is it standard practice to check up on everyone occasionally?


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## chrisboy (21 Oct 2008)

Not completely on the same track but i'm a single father and got a letter the other day saying i had to fill in the form sent with the letter or i would lose my single parent tax relief. I had 21 days to return the form, which i have done, but i thought it strange as i'm only single 3 years and my kids are 5 and 12.. I'm irish btw..


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## Welfarite (21 Oct 2008)

There was a mailshot done by CB last year asking people to confirm their circumstances. Many did not reply and CB was cut-off. It was in the papers that a high % of those that did not reply were people who had left the country and were no longer entitled to CB but failed to cancel claims.


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## alaskaonline (21 Oct 2008)

i got that letter back in august (could have been july even) as well. thought it was strange, too and wondered if any irish parents got them. i am EU citizen, living here for almost 10 years... - anyway i sent it back, confirmed it all and still get the payment.
i do agree though that they should have tried harder to contact people than just sending one letter. at least a phone call would have clarified if letter was received in the first place. ah well, hoping you guys get your money back asap.


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## Welfarite (22 Oct 2008)

alaskaonline said:


> i do agree though that they should have tried harder to contact people than just sending one letter. at least a phone call would have clarified if letter was received in the first place. ah well, hoping you guys get your money back asap.


 

So how many phone calls would that take then and how much would that cost? Not being smart but I'd imagine they decided to be as cost effective as possible . I'd imagine that there were far more people who didn't reply because they weren't at the address than those who didn't get the letter because An Post "lost" it. What's the percentage of "lost" letters, I wonder?


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## Papadoc (22 Oct 2008)

I couldn't tell you how many letters are lost in the post.  I can tell you that this one was.  I understand that there must be some mechanism to check that people are not abusing the system.  However, before cutting people off from an important payment, it should be double checked.  I don't think that the cost of a phone call or a follow-up letter for non-respondants is unreasonable.    
Secondly, targeting only non-Irish recipients for this check does not make sense.  It is also possible that Irish people have emigrated and are still in receipt of payment.  Who checks on these people?


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## WaterSprite (22 Oct 2008)

Papadoc said:


> Secondly, targeting only non-Irish recipients for this check does not make sense.  It is also possible that Irish people have emigrated and are still in receipt of payment.  Who checks on these people?



Chrisboy is Irish and got a letter about his allowances.  We don't know if it was just non-Irish people that were sent the letter.

Sprite


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## Papadoc (22 Oct 2008)

Yes but Chrisboy was not referring to Children's Allowance.

I am interested in finding out if these checks are universal or are only being carried out on non-Irish recipients of Children's Allowance (irrespective of how long they have been in the State).


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## jonno23 (22 Oct 2008)

We too rec'd the letter in August, which we duly completed and returned.  I figured it was normal for them to check every now and again that you acknowledge that you are still entitled to receive the allowance.  I think that's fair.

However, my other half is an EU national so perhaps they just targeted this group first of all?  Both myself and our child are Irish.  Would be interesting to see if they queried recipients who are both Irish.  However, I have no problem with them checking up, I pay alot of tax so it's good to see checks being done.


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## Bronte (22 Oct 2008)

Papodoc I suggest you check if the home address for you is the same as the one the department has maybe this is why you never received the letter, also it could be if when you applied originally you were living at a different address.


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## Eeyore (22 Oct 2008)

We also got cut off sometime last year because we had moved house and didn't inform them of our new address so we never received the letter. We are both Irish so I think they are just checking that everyone is at their given address which is reasonable. We contacted them as soon as we noticed the first missed payment and it was sorted straight away.


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## Welfarite (22 Oct 2008)

See here folks for further explanation....


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## Welfarite (22 Oct 2008)

Welfarite said:


> See here folks for further explanation....


 

and more here


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## chrisboy (22 Oct 2008)

Welfarite said:


> and more here




Well that answers why it could possibly be only non-irish getting the letters..

1.7% irish people defrauding the system compared with 13.7 non-irish..


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## Papadoc (22 Oct 2008)

Thanks for the link.  That does answer my question-looks like I'm statistically more likely to defraud the state.  

Hopefully it won't take too long for them to reinstate the payments.


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## gabsdot (22 Oct 2008)

I got one of these letter. I had opened it before I realised that is it was actually addressed to a woman who rented our house in 1999 while we lived abroad. She moved to Denmark in late 1999 with her child. I'm guessing she's been getting the CA all this time. I  returned the letter and stated that she has not lived in the house since 1999. Hopefully it'll stop now.


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## joejoe (1 Nov 2008)

gabsdot said:


> I got one of these letter. I had opened it before I realised that is it was actually addressed to a woman who rented our house in 1999 while we lived abroad. She moved to Denmark in late 1999 with her child. I'm guessing she's been getting the CA all this time. I  returned the letter and stated that she has not lived in the house since 1999. Hopefully it'll stop now.



My wife and I got a letter to confirm our CA entitlements, I am Irish my wife is  from another EU state. We both totally agree with this procedure and are amazed at the level of abuse the Irish social welfare system receives both by Irish and Non-Irish people. 

The above quote just goes to underline the lack of productivity of the public sector. Why did they not send these letters out sooner and why have a small amount of people received them.

We also did not receive the letter and payment was withdrawn for almost six months. Is there any lightly hood of a back dated payment  ?

Joejoe


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## Towger (13 Jan 2009)

We got a second letter to confirm the existence of our children, in less than a year since we got the first. Looks like more inefficiency/make work from Social Welfare, and here I was thinking they were run off their feet.


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## Welfarite (13 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> We got a second letter to confirm the existence of our children, in less than a year since we got the first. Looks like more inefficiency/make work from Social Welfare, and here I was thinking they were run off their feet.


 
I don't understand. Why is increased control checks on SW payments an inefficiency? Surely this increased checking up is a result of the amoutn of fraud uncovered in the previous mailshot exercise?


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## chrisboy (13 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> I don't understand. Why is increased control checks on SW payments an inefficiency? Surely this increased checking up is a result of the amoutn of fraud uncovered in the previous mailshot exercise?




This is especially more important now, seeing as so many are heading home to their own countries.. The amount of people who have their irish bank accounts left open, and benefits being put in must be huge!


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## Towger (13 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> I don't understand. Why is increased control checks on SW payments an inefficiency? Surely this increased checking up is a result of the amoutn of fraud uncovered in the previous mailshot exercise?


 
Because is it less than a year since we got the first. 
They also appear to sent to only sent to people who appear to be 'non Irish' on your database. This could be viewed as being racist and may also be a breach of the Data Protection Acts, on the grounds that data is being used for proposed it was not originally intended for.


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## Towger (13 Jan 2009)

chrisboy said:


> This is especially more important now, seeing as so many are heading home to their own countries.. The amount of people who have their irish bank accounts left open, and benefits being put in must be huge!


 
It is not just the 'non nationals' who are leaving. I know of a number of Irish families who left over a year ago when the building work started to dry up.


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## Welfarite (14 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> Because is it less than a year since we got the first.
> They also appear to sent to only sent to people who appear to be 'non Irish' on your database. This could be viewed as being racist and may also be a breach of the Data Protection Acts, on the grounds that data is being used for proposed it was not originally intended for.


 
Obviously, SW will target what are considered 'high risk' categories of claimants rather than a scattergun approach as they have to use the resources available to them effectively. Quoting 'racist' and misuse of 'Data Protection Acts' is 'red herring' stuff. I would imagine that an annual review by mailshot is not being overcontrolling of this type of payment. can't see what your problem with it is.


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## Bronte (14 Jan 2009)

Well let's be logical, if I was a social welfare officer looking at this type of fraud would I be better off sending out a confirmation letter to people whose names began with O', Mc or Murphy or to someone with Livorno, Wojciesko, Ti Pi in their name and would this be racist or efficiency?


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## alaskaonline (14 Jan 2009)

i got my 2nd SW letter yesterday - the 2nd within the last 9 months where i had to confirm my details. both of my godmother's daughters have not worked for the past 15 years, both irish and both never received these types of letters.
i live in ireland for the last 9 years, worked 8 years and 3 months full time, paid/ paying all my taxes on a monthly basis and am employed with a company only located in ireland, i had to confirm twice within the past 9 months that i am a resident, let alone the entitlements.
both of my godmother's daughters could literally live abroad and yet they are not being questioned.
where is the joke here or shall i say justification? am i missing something?


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## Welfarite (14 Jan 2009)

These are the facts:

There are over half a million families getting CB for a million kids. In 2008, 70,000 to 100,000 letters issued to targeted groups of people, that's 20% of claimants. This year, another 100,000 letters will issue, including reviewing of 'Irish citizens', which some posters seem to think are exempt from reviews of this nature.


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## chrisboy (14 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> It is not just the 'non nationals' who are leaving. I know of a number of Irish families who left over a year ago when the building work started to dry up.




Thats true too of course, also welfare fraud  in 2007, was 13.9% by foreign nationals and 1.3% by irish citizens so thats another reason why maybe people who are non-irish might be getting targetted.


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## WaterSprite (14 Jan 2009)

chrisboy said:


> Thats true too of course, also welfare fraud  in 2007, was 13.9% by foreign nationals and 1.3% by irish citizens so thats another reason why maybe people who are non-irish might be getting targetted.



Where in the world did you get that statistic?


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## Welfarite (14 Jan 2009)

WaterSprite said:


> Where in the world did you get that statistic?


It's 1.7% for Irish citizens.....http://www.independent.ie/national-news/clampdown-on-child-benefit-fraud-1335747.html


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## Towger (14 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> There are over half a million families getting CB for a million kids. In 2008, 70,000 to 100,000 letters issued to targeted groups of people, that's 20% of claimants. This year, another 100,000 letters will issue, including reviewing of 'Irish citizens', which some posters seem to think are exempt from reviews of this nature.


 
Welfarite,
This is the second letter we got in less than a year. I have checked at work and no one else has ever gotten one. Where is this total of 100k letters coming from, sending out 50k to the same people twice a year? At a cost of say 5+ euro per letter, I can think of better ways to spend the money.  To be honest I always thought that paying children’s allowance via EFT was wide open to abuse and I was involved in writing some of the software to do it!


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## chrisboy (14 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> It's 1.7% for Irish citizens.....http://www.independent.ie/national-news/clampdown-on-child-benefit-fraud-1335747.html




.4 of a % out.. Sorry must've calculated wrong! 

Got info from same link..


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## WaterSprite (14 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> It's 1.7% for Irish citizens.....http://www.independent.ie/national-news/clampdown-on-child-benefit-fraud-1335747.html



What survey are they referring to?  That's the actual source.  Also, we don't know if this refers to child benefit fraud and, if so, the figures will be skewed towards non-nationals because, as is being discussed here, non-nationals (or, more to the point, people with non-national-sounding names) are being sent more of these enforcement notices than the Mary Byrnes.

I highly doubt if that statistic can actually be backed up by any "survey", regardless of what the Indo prints.  If so, then we'd all know who was committing welfare fraud and it could be 100% stamped out, which it obviously isn't.


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## Welfarite (14 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> Welfarite,
> This is the second letter we got in less than a year. I have checked at work and no one else has ever gotten one. Where is this 100k letters coming from, sending out 50k to the same people twice a year? To be honest I always thought that paying children’s allowance via EFT was wide open to abuse and I was involved in writing some of the software to do it!


 
All I'm saying is that the stats show one in five families are reviewed annually. How they select them is another matter. If you're that disturbed that you are on a 'high risk' list that warrants two reviews in a year, perhaps ask them why this is happening? Maybe you just came up on two targeted lists, computer selected? I don't know. 
The EFT facility is of course wide open to abuse, hence the auditor general asking SW to have intensive reviewing of schemes that pay using it.


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## chrisboy (14 Jan 2009)

WaterSprite said:


> What survey are they referring to?  That's the actual source.  Also, we don't know if this refers to child benefit fraud and, if so, the figures will be skewed towards non-nationals because, as is being discussed here, non-nationals (or, more to the point, people with non-national-sounding names) are being sent more of these enforcement notices than the Mary Byrnes.
> 
> I highly doubt if that statistic can actually be backed up by any "survey", regardless of what the Indo prints.  If so, then we'd all know who was committing welfare fraud and it could be 100% stamped out, which it obviously isn't.




Well i doubt the independant just plucked these figures from the sky! I too got one of these letters, and i have an irish name, at first i was a bit miffed at being "picked" for a letter, but now i'm quite happy that something is being done to counter the fraudulent claims, which we all have to pay for..


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## Welfarite (14 Jan 2009)

The figures came from a DSW press release, quoting figures from the Control Section of the department.


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## WaterSprite (14 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> The figures came from a DSW press release, quoting figures from the Control Section of the department.



Do you have a link?  Thanks


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## Bronte (14 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> Welfarite,
> Where is this total of 100k letters coming from, sending out 50k to the same people twice a year?


  That would never happen nor would sending mutiple letters for health appointments to dead people for years.


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## alaskaonline (14 Jan 2009)

Bronte said:


> That would never happen nor would sending mutiple letters for health appointments to dead people for years.


  so true!


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## Welfarite (14 Jan 2009)

Sorry, wasn't a press release, it was a [broken link removed]....


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## Towger (14 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> Maybe you just came up on two targeted lists, computer selected? I don't know.


 
Well Alaskaonline got a second one as well. Chances are that the same mail merge/SQL query was done again, and thinking about it probably by accident/ineptitude rather than on purpose.


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## alaskaonline (14 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> Well Alaskaonline got a second one as well. Chances are that the same mail merge/SQL query was done again, and thinking about it probably by accident/ineptitude rather than on purpose.


 
i hope so with the "by accident". if it happens soon again, i am surely asking the SW for some explainations. for now, i pretend i am not offended and get on with it like the 100.000 others that received the mail


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## Towger (14 Jan 2009)

jaybird said:


> They really can't win can they?


 
Nope, not when they send out the same letter to the same people every few months.


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## Welfarite (14 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> Nope, not when they send out the same letter to the same people every few months.


 

Give it a rest, Towger! It's a letter 'every few months' now, is it?


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## alaskaonline (14 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> Nope, not when they send out the same letter to the same people every few months.


 exactly!

i got mine twice within 9 months (!!!) and not within two years, that is a difference jaybird. and before sending out these letters, why not check who is employed in ireland, pays the full wack of irish taxes etc.? i find it a bit hypocritical to treat me very irish when it comes to payments like taxes and yet indicating at the same time, that i might not need cb for my daughter cause i could have left the country and therefore checking every couple of months on me via these letters.
i don't really get it and yes, i can be offended over it if i want to especially when those who dont work, dont pay taxes and just technically spoken are more "free" to leave this country are not checked on once within the last 15 years. 
get this "checking up" system on people right - it saves us a lot of tax money!


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## chrisboy (14 Jan 2009)

alaskaonline said:


> exactly!
> 
> i got mine twice within 9 months (!!!) and not within two years, that is a difference jaybird. and before sending out these letters, why not check who is employed in ireland, pays the full wack of irish taxes etc.? i find it a bit hypocritical to treat me very irish when it comes to payments like taxes and yet indicating at the same time, that i might not need cb for my daughter cause i could have left the country and therefore checking every couple of months on me via these letters.
> i don't really get it and yes, i can be offended over it if i want to especially when those who dont work, dont pay taxes and just technically spoken are more "free" to leave this country are not checked on once within the last 15 years.
> get this "checking up" system on people right - it saves us a lot of tax money!



A lot of what you're saying is true, and actually maybe it isnt a bad idea to inform them that you got two letters. I got my letter about six months ago, so my uptake on it is its something new they're introducing.. Maybe it's a glitch in the system that needs to be ironed out? I for one am happy about it all because, i'm sick to death of people defrauding us..


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## gillarosa (14 Jan 2009)

I really doubt if Welfare have a programme which can isolate names which are not what may be perceived to be traditionally not Irish and go about sending a mailshot to those people. Rather, there may be one which picks up details on parents may have first obtained an RSI number within say the last 10 years or other indicators that they have originated outside this state as statistically not all migrants stay in the County they move to, I certainly didn't nor did a huge number of my contemporaries who departed these shores in the '80's to mid '90's. Migrants go where there is work and tend leave when it dries up, therefore there will have been a lot of claimants leaving within the past year or so. It would be folly for Welfare to not begin the exercise with that sector of our Society, its not Racist its sense.

In regard to the Claimants who have received a second letter, its not beyond the realm of possibility that it is in fact a second check? Just because a person was here in March 2008 doesn't ensure they will be on October of 2008 or now or next August does it? Any of us who are still here and qualify for the payment will continue to receive it, I personally wouldn't have a problem filling in a few lines on a letter and posting it back to Donegal if and when I get my letter, I see Child Benefit as a wonderful gift from the State, a legacy from the good years!!


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## Towger (14 Jan 2009)

Welfarite said:


> Give it a rest, Towger! It's a letter 'every few months' now, is it?


 
It was less that a year, maybe April/May I can't remember the exact date. Call it April, so like Alaskaonline 9 months and 1.6 weeks. I would call that _*a few months*_ and overly excessive.


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## Towger (14 Jan 2009)

gillarosa said:


> I really doubt if Welfare have a programme which can isolate names which are not what may be perceived to be traditionally not Irish and go about sending a mailshot to those people.


 
It could be on either. The system for paying the money via EFT is MS SQL/.NET based, so it would actually be easy to filter out non Irish surnames. I have heard of credit card application systems who reject people with 4 or more syllables in their surnames as a means of filtering out certain ethnic groups.


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## Welfarite (15 Jan 2009)

Towger said:


> It could be on either. The system for paying the money via EFT is MS SQL/.NET based, so it would actually be easy to filter out non Irish surnames. I have heard of credit card application systems who reject people with 4 or more syllables in their surnames as a means of filtering out certain ethnic groups.


The selection is done by isolating the field with code given to nationalities when claim is registered (i.e 01=Irish, 02= English, etc.), nothing to do with 'Irish-sounding surnames'.


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## Bronte (15 Jan 2009)

It makes sense to send letters twice a year as non nationals are leaving by the boatload.  I have a relation in Ireland receiving a payment from another country and they send her a letter every year to make sure she's not dead.  She's delighted to fill out the form from this country to get her payment (something the Irish rules disallow her on) and is very grateful for it.  There have to be checks and balances on all payments because at the end of the day we're all paying from them.  It's more logical to target non nationals in this particular instance - child allowance, same as it more logical in the border area to target people claiming on both sides.  A targeted search yields better results.


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## Complainer (18 Jan 2009)

Looks like the State will have a more integrated view of citizens at some stage in the future;

[broken link removed]

This would allow them to cross-reference (for example) child benefit payments with income tax, to highlight those that aren't earning anything in the State.


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## Black Sheep (21 Jan 2009)

As child benefit is paid to mothers and the mothers are non Irish I suspect this is the reason the letters are arriving more frequently. It appears to me that this SW doing its job as all of us tax payers expect them to do.
Perhaps other sections should be doing similar checks


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