# Neighbours from hell...please help!



## Emmaf (25 Mar 2012)

Can anyone advise what to do when your neighbours are causing huge disturbance to your life?  Going on over a year now and getting worse, now almost daily.

Music blaring at all hours of the day and night - they don't work and there are 4 adults plus friends always in the house. Suspicion of drugs being used but just a suspicion.

The route of knocking at the door and politely asking them to keep the noise down can no longer be used as they have become abusive and threathening.   The route of banging on the wall has been tried too and they have come screaming at us!  Afraid to leave in a letter asking them to be respectful as afraid of how they will react. 

Don't have a number for the landlord.....a few people have been in and out that I suspected might be the landlord and asked if they were the landlord and they said no, the landlord lives abroad!  Rent being paid by Community Welfare.  wondered about contacting them to see if I could get landlords address or even pass a letter to them this way?

Went on prtb website to see if I could get landlords details and it asks you to register as an agent or a landlord with your pps number etc so scared to do this as am neither!

Any advice much appreciated.


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## Emmaf (25 Mar 2012)

Thank you Cashier.  Both of those threads were awful.  However, neither really answer my question as one was to do with a council house and the other the case of someone selling and not disclosing noisy neighbours.

I really hope to god we don't have to consider the selling up route.

We own our house and theirs is privately rented.  Other neighbours tell us an Irish couple own it as they used to live there but moved and now rent it and never left contact details.

Really afraid to go to the Guards for fear of repercussions - would much rather approach the landlord, but how do I find them?


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## truthseeker (25 Mar 2012)

PRTB - the website is dreadful, but try this link to find the published register for your area.

If the landlord is not registered then you can go to the land registry or registry of deeds to find the owners name - although it wont help you find where he or she now lives - there may be a charge for looking that up also.


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## shesells (25 Mar 2012)

You can make a third party complaint through the PRTB. The cost is €25. See [broken link removed]


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## Emmaf (25 Mar 2012)

Thank you so much guys.  Very useful stuff there.

Truthseeker, your link was excellent!  Had a look and the house is not registered on the prtb list.  I always assumed if rent was being paid by a Community Welfare Officer then the property would have to be registered with prtb.  Can anyone clarify?


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## elcato (26 Mar 2012)

> I always assumed if rent was being paid by a Community Welfare Officer  then the property would have to be registered with prtb.  Can anyone  clarify?


I dont know. Have you tried ringing the revenue report line as a previous thread has shown. Tell them you suspect the landlord is avoiding tax.


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## gipimann (26 Mar 2012)

No, at the moment it's not compulsory for a property to be registered with the PRTB if Rent Supplement is in payment, although this may change in the future.   

One of the qualifying criteria for Rent Supplement is that the tenancy is bona fide, and supporting documentation must be provided to support that.   In this regard, some staff may request PRTB registration confirmation.


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## facetious (26 Mar 2012)

gipimann said:


> *No, at the moment it's not compulsory for a property to be registered with the PRTB if Rent Supplement is in payment*, although this may change in the future.
> 
> One of the qualifying criteria for Rent Supplement is that the tenancy is bona fide, and supporting documentation must be provided to support that.   In this regard, some staff may request PRTB registration confirmation.



Can you say from where you got this information.
IMHO it is irrelevant how the landlord is paid - he still has to register the tenancy. 
However, on re-reading your post, gipimann, I see you contradict yourself: 


> some staff may request PRTB registration confirmation.


Off hand, as far as my memory serves me, a dwelling rented by a local authority does nor have to be registered with the PRTB, however, if it is rented in the private market it it must be registered.

OP, contact the PRTB, if the property is registered, they will have a record of it and the landlord's address. Therefore, I'm sure you will be able to make a third party claim. Also clam for damages - inconvenience, stress etc; awards are often in the thousands. However, you will need undeniable proof - this is the essence of winning. No proof, no deal.


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## Mrs Vimes (26 Mar 2012)

Hi OP,

it isn't really relevant to your complaint whether the tenancy is registered with PRTB, you can make a third-party complaint either way.

I very much doubt that PRTB will give you the landlord's details anyway.

If the tenants are receiving rent allowance or are under the council scheme then I think you should contact the council or CWO to complain them.

PS - PRTB published list is not updated very often, it is possible that it has been registered and hasn't yet been put on the list.


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## gipimann (26 Mar 2012)

facetious,

I didn't contradict myself - Under current SW legislation, it is not a legal requirement for a person claiming rent supplement to rent a property that is PRTB-registered.  If the landlord chooses not to comply with the requirement to register with the PRTB, that does not debar a tenant from applying for and qualifying for Rent Supplement.  

What is required is for the tenant to prove that the tenancy is bona fide.   Evidence of a bona fide tenancy may be PRTB registration, or it could be a lease/tenancy agreement.  That is why staff may ask for information - it's not to prove that the property is PRTB-registered, it's to prove that the tenancy is legitimate.

Mrs Vimes,
The SWA officer or Central Rent office has no role to play in the behaviour of tenants, as the tenant was not placed there by the SWA officer.   If they were placed by the council under a Rental Assistance Scheme (in which case SWA Rent Supplement wouldn't be payable), the council may have a role as they placed the tenant.


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## HMC (26 Mar 2012)

The owner may have a post forwarding service on their mail. You could try contacting them in this way.


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## facetious (26 Mar 2012)

gipimann said:


> facetious,
> 
> I didn't contradict myself - Under current SW legislation, it is not a legal requirement for a person claiming rent supplement to rent a property that is PRTB-registered.  If the landlord chooses not to comply with the requirement to register with the PRTB, that does not debar a tenant from applying for and qualifying for Rent Supplement.
> 
> What is required is for the tenant to prove that the tenancy is bona fide.   Evidence of a bona fide tenancy may be PRTB registration, or it could be a lease/tenancy agreement.  That is why staff may ask for information - it's not to prove that the property is PRTB-registered, it's to prove that the tenancy is legitimate.



If a person, as a tenant, rents a property as a residential dwelling in the private sector then that tenancy is required to be registered with the PRTB (not the property, the tenancy is registered).

There is one definite exception for non-registration (which an SW recipient may rent) which is where the tenancy is in a shared dwelling and for a specific bedroom with the facilities shared with the other occupants of the dwelling. 

If the SW recipient is a licensee (i.e. living with the landlord in the landlord's own home) then again there is no registration and, yes, the SW recipient would in most cases be required to provided proof of their residency by the production of a written licence agreement.


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## Mrs Vimes (26 Mar 2012)

gipimann said:


> Mrs Vimes,
> The SWA officer or Central Rent office has no role to play in the behaviour of tenants, as the tenant was not placed there by the SWA officer.   If they were placed by the council under a Rental Assistance Scheme (in which case SWA Rent Supplement wouldn't be payable), the council may have a role as they placed the tenant.



Thanks for clarification gipimann, sounds like PRTB is probably the only option so.


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## Emmaf (26 Mar 2012)

Thanks again everyone.  Some great ideas there.  Never knew about the land registry tho it seems to ring a distant bell in my mind.  Getting onto them and prtb this week.  Will let you know how we get on.  

Can't thank you all enough for the advice.

Emma


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## Bronte (27 Mar 2012)

Landlords have obligations including getting rid of troublesome tenant's if neighbours object.  It may be that the landlord needs rid of them but could do with you complaining, you do this via the PRTB.  But to back up your claim I think you certainly need to make a complaint to the gardai.   In any case a friendly chat with your local gardai would be a good first port of call.  Explain your fears.


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## Sue Ellen (27 Mar 2012)

We found the Community Garda to be the best port of call.  They will also give you general advice on handling the problem.


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## WorkingClass (27 Mar 2012)

We has issues like this with our next door neighbor. In the end we engaged a solicitor who took a legal case on our behalf against the landlord. (We had tracked down the landlord ourselves, but any solicitor will be able to search the land registry details for you). I'd avoid any further contact with the tenants. You've obviously tried to be reasonable and gotten nowhere. 

The legal situation for a local authority housing may be different to a private rental, which is what we were dealing with. 

The solicitor advised us the best thing to do was to open a complaint with the PRTB (takes ages) AND pursue the landlord directly in the district court (which only takes a few weeks).

It's very important to keep a log of noise and record it if possible. When it comes to actually going to court, it's important to make a good case and prove it's a pattern of disturbance. 

In reality for us, the landlord settled with us on the morning we were supposed to go to court (which I suspect is very common) He paid all of our legal fees so financially the entire affair cost us nothing other than time and headache. 

While the legal route is pretty daunting, I have to say I highly recommend getting legal advice to see what your options are. 

If I were in the same situation again, I'd starting collecting evidence from day one and engage a solicitor as soon as I had enough to make a decent case.

Hope this helps and good luck. There are few things worse than this situation.


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## irishmoss (27 Mar 2012)

+1




sue ellen said:


> we found the community garda to be the best port of call. They will also give you general advice on handling the problem.


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## Setanta12 (28 Mar 2012)

Bronte said:


> Landlords have obligations including getting rid of troublesome tenant's if neighbours object.



Incredible! So neighbours have an effective veto on your tenants ?


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## shesells (28 Mar 2012)

Kildavin said:


> Incredible! So neighbours have an effective veto on your tenants ?



In extreme circumstances you could almost put it like that. But look at it the other way, tenants that disturb the neighbours in ways such as have been described, are very unlikely to have been treating your property with any respect.


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## Bronte (29 Mar 2012)

Kildavin said:


> Incredible! So neighbours have an effective veto on your tenants ?


 
I wouldn't put it like that. But I can tell you this, if I had a tenant like the OP described I would certainly want to know about it. No other human being should have to live beside what is described. 

You mention veto, I try to always get good tenant's. Including warning them that my neighbours cannot stand any noise, will call the gardai and not to take the place if they can not comply to try and deter would be party hellraisers. Have not always been successful. But it is damn hard to get rid of bad tenants.

Workingclass, it is good to know that these things can be sorted.


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## bugler (29 Mar 2012)

Kildavin said:


> Incredible! So neighbours have an effective veto on your tenants ?



It isn't like they can have them evicted out because they don't like the look of them. If there are real and serious issues related to anti-social behaviour or other factors impacting on the neighbours quality of life then they should be allowed seek a resolution. 

Landlords shouldn't be able to place whoever they like in a property and then wash their hands of it.


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## WorkingClass (29 Mar 2012)

Kildavin said:


> Incredible! So neighbours have an effective veto on your tenants ?



Yes, provided those neighbours are prepared to stand in a court of law with evidence to prove that your tenants are extremely disruptive and are negatively impacting their ability to use their family home. (does this honestly seem unreasonable to you?)

It's not like the neighbours can simply decide they don't like a tenant and move to have them evicted. It is up to those neighbours to actually prove the tenants are  disruptive.

Now the bit where the law gets interesting seems to be the fact that you are legally liable for the tenants in some respects, so if you choose to ignore these complaints when then come up, the neighbours can take you to court and sue you. 

At the end of the day, if I ever again need to make the decision between listening to my kids crying for hours in the middle of the night because some a-hole thinks it's ok to blare music at full volume at 4am or take a some landlord to court who I've already made numerous complaints to, well I'll be dusting off the suit again. I'd strongly suggest that anyone else in a similar position do the same.

Also, if I were a landlord (which I may very well be shortly) I would want to know right away if I had anti-social tenants, because they tend not to be the kind of people who are going to take any kind of care my investment.


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## Smashbox (30 Mar 2012)

I second the comments about the Gardai, they are surprisingly understanding in cases like this, and I myself have been assured that its very common for people to come to them regarding neighbour issues.

Last year we got a new neighbour who - because he wasn't working - could sleep in until all hours of the day. I on the other hand, had to go out to work. He liked to do things to stir up my dogs, keep me awake - such as chopping timber in the house, tapping on the windows at night, playing the tv loudly etc.

It all came to a head when he drunkenly smashed one of the windows in the house. I called the Gardai in the morning, they had a word and things have been peaceful since. My advise, speak to your local Gardai.


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## Emmaf (2 Feb 2013)

I wanted to update you on our neighbour situation....

Things continued as they were.  We felt very helpless and afraid of them.  One day a fire started in their house, which caused a bit of damage in the house but not serious thankfully.  Next thing landlord turns up with a few guys to fix all the damage.  We spoke to him and discovered he was landlord.  He was quite aware of the type of people he had in the house and said they had been there for 7 years and had more rights than him or he would get move them on 'but his hands were tied'.
I lost the head.  Walked over to his van and took down reg etc and told him my father worked in revenue my husband in the guards (all lies might I add) and I'd be passing on a complaint, causually dropping in 'I'm sure if you are paying tax you have nothing to worry about'.  He said nothing and I left him to it.  

The tenants disappeared when the work was going on.  Next thing skips appeared and more workmen appeared on site.  House was being gutted. Spotted landlord a few days later and he called me over.  Was very friendly and said he had managed to get rid of bad tenants and had a lovely family moving in who were very nice and would not cause any bother.  He also gave me his mobile number......

New neighbours lovely - not a peep out of them.  Normal decent people and our lives have changed for the better.  Still, it was more chance than anything that sorted it.


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## Petal (2 Feb 2013)

Am delighted for you. I had really bad neighbours before, too, so can sympathise. and the relief when they finally moved out! Happy days!


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## Delboy (2 Feb 2013)

great news Emmaf...no one should have to live like that but this is a broken country, and good people are ignored in favour of the take take cohort that live amongst us.

Interesting that the mention of the Rev Comm may have inspired the change in attitude with that landlord....I would have thought that if Welfare were paying the rent, then all landlords have no choice but to be registered and tax compliant. But this is Ireland, and I suppose I should'nt assume anything as basic as that


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## JohnJay (2 Feb 2013)

Delboy said:


> I would have thought that if Welfare were paying the rent, then all landlords have no choice but to be registered and tax compliant. But this is Ireland, and I suppose I should'nt assume anything as basic as that



That would mean that computers in one department would have to talk to computers in another department. Things like this dont happen in Ireland's 'Smart Economy'


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## gipimann (2 Feb 2013)

While the computer systems don't "talk" directly to each other, there is exchange of data between Dept of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners.

For properties where Rent Supplement is in payment, the amount of Rent Supplement paid, along with landlord information, is sent every year to the Revenue Commissioners.     It is now a legal requirement for a landlord to supply his/her tax reference number as part of a tenant's application for Rent Supplement.


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