# Hounded in Ireland by UK the Tax Man !



## Farmer Sid (10 May 2006)

I sold my farm in Lancashire a couple of years ago and retired to a nice little cottage just outside of Cork here in the Republic of Ireland.

Before I left the UK I paid what I thought at the time was all the tax due, over £140,000, but now 2 years later the UK Tax Man has started to write to me demanding another £23,000 or so, and amount that is in dispute.

The thing is, I spent most of my money on the cottage, much of the rest on buying an anuity, so I don't have much left to pay them even if I felt I really did owe it to them.

It's all getting to be a bit stressful, so I'd like to know what they could do about it if I told them to go to hell. Can they come after me now that I've left the UK ? I've cut all ties with it, and at my age (68) I don't see any need or reason to even go back there for a visit.

I'd appreciate any thoughts or direction on this, it really is starting to stress me out.

Thanks,

Sid.


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## Farmer Sid (14 May 2006)

I have another letter from the Tax Man in England today, making more than veiled threats, do they have any jurisdiction here in the Republic ?

Sid.


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## ClubMan (14 May 2006)

Do you get post on a Sunday?

What tax(es?) were involved here? _CGT _for example perhaps? Was this self assessed and is there a possibility that you underestimated your liability? What the cottage your _PPR (Principal Private Residence)_? If so is there no exemption from tax on the sale of a PPR in the UK as there is in Ireland? Or was it an investment/holiday home? If you did self assess then perhaps the _UK _tax authorities are within their rights to chase you for the shortfall? Did you get independent, professional advice on the return? If you did then the tax advisor/accountant in question may have some sort of professional indemnity insurance that might cover the outstanding amount if you were misadvised. I'm not sure what powers the _UK _tax authorities have to pursue this in _Ireland _but, for example, failing to deal with it could make travelling to/through the _UK _difficult in the future. On the other hand maybe they are working off incorrect information, have miscalculated your liability and the shortfall above what you have already paid and you just need to apprise them of the precise facts? What "veiled threats" are you referring to? I doubt that any country's tax authorities are in the business of writing sinister letters to taxpayers.


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## paddlepuss (14 May 2006)

I suggest you seek expert tax advice. One of the best on UK CGT and non-residency rules is Carl Bayley, based in Edinbrugh and the biz is called The Tax Cafe http://www.taxcafe.co.uk/. BTW The Inland Revenue can issue an action against you in the UK and can seek extradition to UK though extremely unlikely for tax evasion.


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## woods (14 May 2006)

You would be better off talking to them. The reason that they are hounding you is because they think that you are being unreasonable.
Ask them for their computations and compare them to yours. 
You must have had an accountant back then and maybe he/she will help you now. 
Ignoring it will just add to your stress. You best bet is to proove that you do not owe the money and if you do, then to negotiate to reduce it (they still do this in cases wher it is trouble to collect).


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## Farmer Sid (14 May 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> Do you get post on a Sunday?
> 
> What tax(es?) were involved here? _CGT _for example perhaps? Was this self assessed and is there a possibility that you underestimated your liability? What the cottage your _PPR (Principal Private Residence)_? If so is there no exemption from tax on the sale of a PPR in the UK as there is in Ireland? Or was it an investment/holiday home? If you did self assess then perhaps the _UK _tax authorities are within their rights to chase you for the shortfall? Did you get independent, professional advice on the return? If you did then the tax advisor/accountant in question may have some sort of professional indemnity insurance that might cover the outstanding amount if you were misadvised. I'm not sure what powers the _UK _tax authorities have to pursue this in _Ireland _but, for example, failing to deal with it could make travelling to/through the _UK _difficult in the future. On the other hand maybe they are working off incorrect information, have miscalculated your liability and the shortfall above what you have already paid and you just need to apprise them of the precise facts? What "veiled threats" are you referring to? I doubt that any country's tax authorities are in the business of writing sinister letters to taxpayers.


 
Saturdays mail it was, waiting for me when got home late on from a family wedding, hence the late posting in here. The threats are of penalties for late payment etc etc, and the crux of the matter is they feel I sold the land for less than it worth, but I didn't I sold it way beyond arms length just to get a quick sale, simple as that.

Thanks for you comments though all of you, it is appreciated, and just being able to get it off my chest helps me cope with it.

Sid.


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## woods (14 May 2006)

Farmer Sid said:
			
		

> the crux of the matter is they feel I sold the land for less than it worth, but I didn't I sold it way beyond arms length just to get a quick sale, simple as that.
> 
> Sid.


Sounds to me as though they are chancing their arm. You can fight this one.


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## Farmer Sid (14 May 2006)

paddlepuss said:
			
		

> I suggest you seek expert tax advice. One of the best on UK CGT and non-residency rules is Carl Bayley, based in Edinbrugh and the biz is called The Tax Cafe http://www.taxcafe.co.uk/. BTW The Inland Revenue can issue an action against you in the UK and can seek extradition to UK though extremely unlikely for tax evasion.


 
Thanks for the above, I'll take a look at it. 

Folks over here tell me I should ignore them, they keep quoting me the case of Joseph Locke {a famous singer of a generation ago} he owed money to the UK Tax Man but they didn't come over her looking for him.

I don't know if things have changed or what, just trying to find out the lay of the land so to speak.

Sid.


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## Farmer Sid (14 May 2006)

woods said:
			
		

> You would be better off talking to them. The reason that they are hounding you is because they think that you are being unreasonable.
> Ask them for their computations and compare them to yours.
> You must have had an accountant back then and maybe he/she will help you now.
> Ignoring it will just add to your stress. You best bet is to proove that you do not owe the money and if you do, then to negotiate to reduce it (they still do this in cases wher it is trouble to collect).


 
I appreciate your comments, but there aren't any computations to argue about, it's not like my accountant got them wrong, it's the amount that I sold for that is causing them ire, no more than it did for me at the time though, but I just wanted to sell and buy this place over here before I lost this deal. Trouble is the land finally got planning permission and the bloke who bought it off me has made a small fortune, but good luck to him I say, I could never manage to get planning, and it cost him a lot to get it through, but they seem to think money changed hands, yet it didn't.

Sid.


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## woods (14 May 2006)

Farmer Sid said:
			
		

> Thanks for the above, I'll take a look at it.
> 
> Folks over here tell me I should ignore them, they keep quoting me the case of Joseph Locke {a famous singer of a generation ago} he owed money to the UK Tax Man but they didn't come over her looking for him.
> 
> ...


Yes but he owed the money and you do not. Straighten the matter out or it may come back to bite you.


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## Farmer Sid (14 May 2006)

woods said:
			
		

> Sounds to me as though they are chancing their arm. You can fight this one.


 
If I was a younger man I'd fight them, but at my age I'd rather just walk the dog, I don't need the stress, and fighting it would take a lot of money that I haven't budgeted for.

What can I say to them that will convince them there wasn't any brown paper envelopes !

Sid.


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## Farmer Sid (14 May 2006)

woods said:
			
		

> Yes but he owed the money and you do not. Straighten the matter out or it may come back to bite you.


 
Aye, that's the worst part of it, they left him alone but they are hounding me, maybe that's because he was Irish and I'm not ?

Sid.


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## woods (14 May 2006)

Did you have an agent arranging the deal. Did you have an accountant. Is there any other party who was a wittness to this.
Why do they think that the property was worth more than you said. They must have a reason. Surely they did not just pull your name from a hat and say "let's go and annoy this guy".


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## Farmer Sid (15 May 2006)

woods said:
			
		

> Did you have an agent arranging the deal. Did you have an accountant. Is there any other party who was a wittness to this.
> Why do they think that the property was worth more than you said. They must have a reason. Surely they did not just pull your name from a hat and say "let's go and annoy this guy".


 
I certainly did have an Agent, they valued the land and the bunglaow I had there, but there wasn't any interest at all, it was a bit off the beaten track and down an unadopted / unmaintained road. Then this bloke from Blackburn a developer offered me a good bit less than it had been priced up at, but I'd put a deposit on the cottage here and needed to make a move, if I hadn't done I may still have been there with the farm getting neglected. So I took his offer and that was that.

I think all this started up due to my step son, who after his mother died thought that I'd turn the lot over to him, or at least leave the lot to him in my Will. He didn't want me to sell the farm, he was hoping that he'd eventually get planning permission on it, and make Millions, that was his dream, and he was more than angry when I sold up, so I think it's him mixing me a bottle.

Sid.


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## ClubMan (15 May 2006)

I'm still a bit unclear - are you saying that they're looking for an alleged shortfall in _CGT _based on the higher value that they put on the property over and above what you actually sold it for?


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## MOB (15 May 2006)

The rules for tax liabilities are different in each jurisdiction, but by way of general observation:

1.  When the tax man issues an assessment which you dispute, you must appeal the assessment.

2.  If you do not appeal the assessment, it becomes final. This usually means that you have to pay the assessed tax before you can have the opportunity to appeal the liability.

If you have not already done so, appeal the assessment.  If you didn't get extra money for the land, then clearly the UK revenue won't be able to find any evidence that you did; but you must formally appeal their assessment (if not already done)


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## Farmer Sid (15 May 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> I'm still a bit unclear - are you saying that they're looking for an alleged shortfall in _CGT _based on the higher value that they put on the property over and above what you actually sold it for?


 
That's it exactly ! they seem to believe I got more for the farm than I actually did, and I'm sure that "someone" mixed me a bottle.

Tell you what though, I'm new to all of this e-mail stuff, Bob a friend of mine from Bolton is over here staying with me for a couple of weeks, he set it all up for me, and I like what you can do on a computer, I can even listen to the BBC World Service and some Lancashire stations, that's the only thing I missed, some of the radio programs.

But I do appreciate the comments that you all have kindly offered to me.

Sid.


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## Farmer Sid (15 May 2006)

MOB said:
			
		

> The rules for tax liabilities are different in each jurisdiction, but by way of general observation:
> 
> 1. When the tax man issues an assessment which you dispute, you must appeal the assessment.
> 
> ...


 
I just feel that if I start writing to them I'll never get shut of them, everyone here tells me just to ignore them, they say they have no jurisdiction in the Republic.

The problem is I can't "prove" I didn't get a brown paper envelope, how can you prove something that didn't happen ?

Have the extradition laws changed since Joseph Locke (don't knw if you lads have heard of him, he was in my time), but I'm told there's scores of others like him that were over here away from what they may have owed or were in dispute about.

I get the feeling they think I made a bolt for Ireland to hide from them, but I came here because my Great Grandfather came from Cork, and I spent time here as a lad, it's a bit like going home for me, it's not a bolt hole, it's my hertigae, and somewhere away from all the little terrors back in England, two weeks before I sold up a couple of lads tried to break in at 2 o' clock on the morning ! like an old fool I ran them off, then I realised they could have done me in !

Sid.


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## ClubMan (15 May 2006)

_MOB's _comments about appealing sound prudent to me. You still seem to have family in the _UK _so returning to visit them could potentially be problematic if you don't sort this matter out.


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## willows (15 May 2006)

Could the person you sold the land to be claiming he paid you more than he did to reduce his tax liability? This could be what highlighted your situation to the revenue.


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## Farmer Sid (15 May 2006)

ClubMan said:
			
		

> _MOB's _comments about appealing sound prudent to me. You still seem to have family in the _UK _so returning to visit them could potentially be problematic if you don't sort this matter out.


 
No family at all over there now, the wife died in 2002 and other than her son who I can manage without, there's no one, except for a couple of friends that come to visit me for a couple of weeks, they like to visit me here, it's a little holiday for them.

Sid.


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## Farmer Sid (15 May 2006)

willows said:
			
		

> Could the person you sold the land to be claiming he paid you more than he did to reduce his tax liability? This could be what highlighted your situation to the revenue.


 
I never thought of that, but I doubt they'd believe him, it all went through the Agents. I'm sure I know who it is trying to stitch me up, he's the only one angry at me selling up, he thought he'd cop for the lot when I snuffed it, and now that he's seen planning come through he's lost it, even phoned me up playing hell saying what a fool I was to sell it, but it was the only offer I had at the time, and I don't regret it, I'm happy here now, or I would be except for all this going on.

Sid.


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## ClubMan (15 May 2006)

I see. I just assumed that you were referring to your own little terrors above! 


			
				Farmer Sid said:
			
		

> and somewhere away from all the little terrors back in England


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## cardigan (15 May 2006)

I can't give any specific advice on whether the tax is owed or not. The only advice I can give is to beware the man in the pub talk! Don't ignore the correspondence from the Inland Revenue. Sort it out (with the help of a good tax advisor), put it behind you and enjoy your retirement. Some of the other posters have given good advice on appealing assessments etc.

A woman I know fobbed off calls from the (Irish) Revenue for months - both telephone calls and personal calls. She lived in fear of the phone ringing which was far worse than the final tax bill. As it turned out, when she eventually dealt with it, the liability wasn't as much as she thought and she was sorry she didn't sort it out sooner.


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## willmy41 (17 May 2006)

Keep writing to the revenue. Letters take ages to pass through the system. Appeal everything. String them out for as long as you can. You're 68 now - by the time it's resolved you will either be a 100 years old or beneath the clay in beautiful County Cork. I don't mean this in a frivolous way. Remember you are in Ireland now.


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