# Cycling accident



## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

I've had a cycling accident, which required emergency surgery needing about a year of recovery and the likelihood of developing arthritis . I was cycling downhill around a bend and the bike started to slide, resulting in me losing control; the road conditions were not wet or frosty, I was not travelling at excessive speed and my bicycle is roadworthy.

This is a well-used section of road, probably the steepest hill/bend in the town, close to the town centre and beside a secondary school but it does not have any anti-skid surface, which are commonplace in other road sections of the town where it happened. Two passersby stopped to help me and commented on how greasy underfoot the road was.

I am self-employed and therefore not entitled to claim Illness Benefit so I am effectively without an income for the foreseeable future. The operating surgeon referred to my injury as "life changing".

Would I potentially have a case against the local authority for personal injury, medical expenses and loss of income?


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## huskerdu (20 Dec 2021)

No


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## cremeegg (20 Dec 2021)

There are a number of issues that would have to be looked at to decide what claim if any you might have.

Was the road in a fit state. Has it deteriorated significantly since it was constructed. Had there been any previous complaints to the council about the condition of the road.

Is there is a standard regarding the use of anti-slip surfaces and did this road meet it.



Carnmore said:


> Would I potentially I have a case against the local authority for personal injury, medical expenses and loss of income?




I think you are asking the wrong question. The correct question would be can you get a solicitor to take a case for you. 

If a solicitor believes that the council have no case to answer they will not want to take your case. How would they get paid. If a solicitor believes you have a good case they will be likely to take it on as they would be paid as part if any settlement.


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

huskerdu said:


> No


Thanks for the nuanced reply


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## Baby boomer (20 Dec 2021)

No, unless the local authority had botched a repair or maintenance job on the road.  

It's one of the more ironic unintended consequences of our legal liability regime.  The LA can let a road deteriorate into appallingly dangerous condition and they have no liability for it.   The moment they lift a shovel to it, they are liable for any imperfections in their work, even if the finished result is a far safer road. 

Perverse incentives, eh?


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

cremeegg said:


> Was the road in a fit state.


Insufficient grip-it was treacherous on the bend where I lost control 


cremeegg said:


> Has it deteriorated significantly since it was constructed.


Abrasion has, yes, but overall the surface is good 


cremeegg said:


> Had there been any previous complaints to the council about the condition of the road.


I don't know 


cremeegg said:


> I think you are asking the wrong question. The correct question would be can you get a solicitor to take a case for you.
> 
> If a solicitor believes that the council have no case to answer they will not want to take your case. How would they get paid. If a solicitor believes you have a good case they will be likely to take it on as they would be paid as part if any settlement.


I initially thought I could claim through the PIAB but have since read that when there are potential future medical problems, a solicitor should be used. 
I agree, the test is whether someone would take it on.


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

Baby boomer said:


> No, unless the local authority had botched a repair or maintenance job on the road.
> 
> It's one of the more ironic unintended consequences of our legal liability regime.  The LA can let a road deteriorate into appallingly dangerous condition and they have no liability for it.   The moment they lift a shovel to it, they are liable for any imperfections in their work, even if the finished result is a far safer road.
> 
> Perverse incentives, eh?


Yes, I was aware of nonfeasance vs malfeasance and have since read about this case 









						Court of appeal overturns €113,000 award to man who fell cycling over broken ramp
					

The Court of Appeal (CoA) has overturned a €113,000 High Court award to a man who fell off his bicycle when he went over a broken concrete ramp overlapping a cattle grid.




					www.independent.ie


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## Baby boomer (20 Dec 2021)

There's an interesting little backstory here.  Section 60 of the Civil Liability Act, 1961, says that.

60 —(1) A road authority shall be liable for damage caused as a result of their failure to maintain adequately a public road.

and Section 60 (7) states:

(7) This section shall come into operation on such day, not earlier than the 1st day of April, 1967, as may be fixed therefor by order made by the Government.

Between 1st April 1967 and today, no government has made an order for Section 60 to come into operation.  It could be done by stroke of a ministerial pen, but never has.  

So, 60 years ago, the Oireachtas decided that local authorities should be made legally liable for failure to maintain adequately a public road.  They even allowed a lead in period of at least 6 years.  In the intervening years, no government has implemented this decision.  

Comment would be superfluous.


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## MrEarl (20 Dec 2021)

Isn't this really a discussion to have with a solicitor ?

With best of intentions, I don't see how anyone here can give an accurate assessment.


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

Baby boomer said:


> There's an interesting little backstory here.  Section 60 of the Civil Liability Act, 1961, says that.
> 
> 60 —(1) A road authority shall be liable for damage caused as a result of their failure to maintain adequately a public road.
> 
> ...


That was the Civil Liabilities Act as referenced in the link in my previous post


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

MrEarl said:


> Isn't this really a discussion to have with a solicitor ?


Getting advice elsewhere could apply to most posts on AAM


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## Cervelo (20 Dec 2021)

May I ask what type of tyres were on the bike, any chance they were Gatorskins or Armadillos??


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

Cervelo said:


> May I ask what type of tyres were on the bike, any chance they were Gatorskins or Armadillos??


Schwalbe Marathon Plus, a heavy bike too


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## MrEarl (20 Dec 2021)

Hello Carnmore,

Have you sought legal advice from a solicitor on this already?

If so, what did they say?

If not, why not?


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

MrEarl said:


> Hello Carnmore,
> 
> Have you sought legal advice from a solicitor on this already?


No


MrEarl said:


> If not, why not?


Still in hospital and would like to get some ideas from AAM in the meantime


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## Gordon Gekko (20 Dec 2021)

Get well soon. That sounds very unfortunate. I’d have thought you’ve no basis for a claim. You must’ve been going too fast.


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> You must’ve been going too fast.


Did you read my post?


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## Gordon Gekko (20 Dec 2021)

Carnmore said:


> Did you read my post?


I did.

Based on your subjective analysis, you weren’t travelling at excessive speed.

But you lost control of your bike and crashed. On that basis, objectively, you were travelling too fast.

It’s tough that you’ve been injured and I wish you well, but I don’t see why the taxpayer should be on the hook for this.


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

Gordon Gekko said:


> I did.
> 
> Based on your subjective analysis, you weren’t travelling at excessive speed.
> 
> ...


I'm an experienced daily cyclist and know what too fast means.

I'm a taxpayer too and we supposedly live in a society.

Perhaps don't bother commenting in future rather than offering glib sympathy when just being dismissive


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## Cervelo (20 Dec 2021)

Carnmore said:


> Schwalbe Marathon Plus, a heavy bike too


Yeah a good tyre by any standard, I was asking about the other two because I've seen more people loose grip/control especially during winter on the Gators and the Armadillos and generally advise tyres like the Marathons as alternatives.

Hope the recovery is better than what has been indicated and they gave you some nice pain medication


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## Shirazman (20 Dec 2021)

Carnmore said:


> This is a well-used section of road, probably the steepest hill/bend in the town, close to the town centre and beside a secondary school but it does not have any anti-skid surface, which are commonplace in other road sections of the town where it happened. Two passersby stopped to help me and commented on how greasy underfoot the road was.



So you're familiar with the piece of road, and had never crashed there before.     But this time you, unfortunately, did.  

If you weren't going too fast, then what change to the road surface would have caused the accident?    (I'm thinking of something like an oil spill.)


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## Pinoy adventure (20 Dec 2021)

Cervelo said:


> Yeah a good tyre by any standard, I was asking about the other two because I've seen more people loose grip/control especially during winter on the Gators and the Armadillos and generally advise tyres like the Marathons as alternatives.
> 
> Hope the recovery is better than what has been indicated and they gave you some nice pain medication


Although a good tyre 
I’ve had a slide with the marathon plus on my bike


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## Brendan Burgess (20 Dec 2021)

Carnmore said:


> it does not have any anti-skid surface, which are commonplace in other road sections of the town where it happened.



There are anti-skid surfaces on approaches to traffic lights for cars that need to stop suddenly. 

I have not noticed them around Dublin for cyclists.   When you are out of hospital could you post a photo of what you are referring to.  Maybe Dublin is not hilly enough for them. 

Cycling is hazardous.  Road conditions can be dangerous.  Roads can be greasy. 

I don't think that the Council can guarantee that people will not have accidents. 

I feel sorry for you as you seem to have been badly injured but if everyone who fell off a bike could sue the Council, the state would be bankrupt.

Brendan


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

Shirazman said:


> So you're familiar with the piece of road, and had never crashed there before.     But this time you, unfortunately, did.
> 
> If you weren't going too fast, then what change to the road surface would have caused the accident?    (I'm thinking of something like an oil spill.)


Nothing obvious had been spilled rather a general greasiness on the corner


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

Brendan Burgess said:


> There are anti-skid surfaces on approaches to traffic lights for cars that need to stop suddenly.
> 
> I have not noticed them around Dublin for cyclists.   When you are out of hospital could you post a photo of what you are referring to.  Maybe Dublin is not hilly enough for them.
> 
> ...


As stated, it's a steep hill and sharp bend leading directly on to a busy national route; the main traffic is motor vehicles so the anti-skid coating would primarily be for them not cyclists per se.

For the reasons outlined, the surface should have an anti-skid surface, which would reduce the chances of accidents 

To imply I'm looking for a "guarantee" of no accidents happening is absurd.

I've had several cycling falls and never sued anyone as they've either been my fault or just one of those things. 

As stated in a response to a similar reply, we live in a society and there is nothing wrong with making a genuine claim for loss of earnings where there's been negligence.


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## roker (20 Dec 2021)

If you are blaming the road surface being slippery then it's your fault, you should read the road conditions, if it was icy you would have every Tom, Dick and Harry complaining


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## Carnmore (20 Dec 2021)

roker said:


> If you are blaming the road surface being slippery then it's your fault, you should read the road conditions, if it was icy you would have every Tom, Dick and Harry complaining


Try reading my post


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## seamless (20 Dec 2021)

As a long term racer, commuter and leisure rider I very much feel your pain and hope your recovery is swift and successful. My view for what its worth is that its an unfortunate accident which happens frequently enough at this time of the year when the road surface is wet. If you'd hit a pothole or a traffic cone or even a badly finished repair, I'd have some level of confidence in trying to claim damages but cycling in Ireland in the winter is implicitly hazardous given the weather conditions. My cycling buddy crashed 2 weeks ago on a hairpin bend that we have ridden hundreds of times at very low speeds and broke a femur - it was a combination of greasy roads, maybe a moments inattention and sheer bad luck of the point of impact. 

Again, best wishes for your recovery.


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## Luternau (20 Dec 2021)

Agree with the above. Firstly, I am sorry about your incident. I hope it turns out to be less severe not not life changing. Ultimately, that is all that matters right now. It's way too early to be looking at the liability or negligence case. Rest and recovery is what you need.

I am a cyclist of many many years, and many falls both racing or commuting. There are roads i cycle daily or many times a week. Some are hazardous or perhaps not ideal for cycling on is a better way to put it, either with narrowness, surface, negative camber, gradient or any number of those things. When the roads are greasy, as they often are this time of year, I have to be ultra cautious, slow down etc.

Its my responsibility to cycle in a manner that is correct for the terrain, traffic or surface. I am not saying you didnt, but ultimately, today you fell and other days your did not. What made today more dangerous?

 If I fall and its not my fault, I have to prove somebody was negligent or caused me to fall.

This has to be your next avenue and you must therefore get legal advice on the merits of a case. If this roadway is as hazardous as you say, you may not be the only person that has fallen. If that is the case, this will help build your case.

Rght now, no matter what you say in your first post (and I did read it and all your other posts) you don't have grounds for a case just because you fell. Cycling is hazardous, even if you are skilled, competent or experienced. This could just be another case where you fell off and it was no one's fault.

That may not be what you want to hear but that's how I, as a cyclist see it.

I wish you a speedy and full recovery.


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## Cervelo (21 Dec 2021)

roker said:


> If you are blaming the road surface being slippery then it's your fault, you should read the road conditions, if it was icy you would have every Tom, Dick and Harry complaining


In fairness to Carnmore its not always easy to "read the road conditions" sometimes a road can look perfect but isn't and you only realise that when something starts to go wrong. A lot of people forget that on a bicycle you are relying on a couple of inches of rubber at most and the slightest imperfection on the road or a change in conditions can compromise the grip of even the most experienced rider and down you go!! 



Pinoy adventure said:


> Although a good tyre
> I’ve had a slide with the marathon plus on my bike


Would agree, but of the three high puncture resistance tyres the Marathons would be my choice. The problem with these type tyres is although they have high PR and durability they generally made from a harder rubber compound which affects grip in a negative way especially when road conditions are far from perfect which is very often the case.


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## skrooge (21 Dec 2021)

Carnmore said:


> This is a well-used section of road, probably the steepest hill/bend in the town, close to the town centre and beside a secondary school but it does not have any anti-skid surface, which are commonplace in other road sections of the town where it happened. Two passersby stopped to help me and commented on how greasy underfoot the road was.



On the question if is there a case to answer reading the above extract would make me think no. The context  provided suggests that this is a dangerous part of the road at the best of times. In this instance and conditions (greasy road) further exacerbated the danger. 

While the OP points out the addition of an anti-skid surface would reduce the risk I don't think that is grounds for a case. Yes there is scope to make it safer but that's different from saying the councils (in)actions were significant factors in the accident. 

Based on the tyre talk above it sounds like the defence could also argue the choice of tyre was an aggravating factor.


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## Peanuts20 (21 Dec 2021)

Looking at the OP's original post and follow up, I fear you have already talked yourself into this accident being "someone else's fault". As such, there is always a solicitor somewhere who will take this on. The difficulty will be proving the council's liability, especially if this is a road you were on was one you had cycled many times in the past. Hate to say it, but my reading is that you made a mistake and even if you did prove liability, I'd imagine a judge would reduce the value of an award to take that into account

It really shows the importance of critical illness/accident cover for the self employed. 

worth having a chat with Citizens information to see if there are any options around social welfare/illness benefit.


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## ryaner (21 Dec 2021)

If you do decide to do anything about it, get someone to go out and photograph the area _before_ contacting the council. 
While a little anecdotal, over the years, I've found the best way to get a council to fix a road issue is to report an accident from something. Reporting a pothole and it might still be there a year later, but doing the same report as pole hole which you hit and destroyed a bike or wheel from has resulted in a road crew the next day in one case, two days after in the other case.

The sooner you do this the better too. An accident of the scale you are talking about likely means you didn't dust yourself off and cycle down the hospital after, so you could very easily have missed something new that wasn't there on all the days before. Especially on roads you cycle on often, it is easy to fall into a habit of sorts. I remember once where we only noticed an oil slick while sitting it after having come off the bikes.

No matter though I wish you a speedy recovery.


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## RetirementPlan (21 Dec 2021)

Carnmore said:


> I've had a cycling accident, which required emergency surgery needing about a year of recovery and the likelihood of developing arthritis . I was cycling downhill around a bend and the bike started to slide, resulting in me losing control; the road conditions were not wet or frosty, I was not travelling at excessive speed and my bicycle is roadworthy.
> 
> This is a well-used section of road, probably the steepest hill/bend in the town, close to the town centre and beside a secondary school but it does not have any anti-skid surface, which are commonplace in other road sections of the town where it happened. Two passersby stopped to help me and commented on how greasy underfoot the road was.
> 
> ...


What were the weather conditions like? What were they like for the few days before the crash?


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## sharkattack (21 Dec 2021)

Also worth nothing that the council are no push over when it comes to matters like this.  If they decide to contest any claim you may decide to take they will fight it tooth and nail so be prepared for a long road ahead.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Dec 2021)

sharkattack said:


> be prepared for a long road ahead.


And be very careful going along it. 

Brendan


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## Leo (21 Dec 2021)

Carnmore said:


> This is a well-used section of road, probably the steepest hill/bend in the town, close to the town centre and beside a secondary school but it does not have any anti-skid surface, which are commonplace in other road sections of the town where it happened.


I lost control of a car going round a bend many years ago, the Garda who came out noted that he felt there was an issue with insufficient grip on that corner as there had been a number of incidents over the previous days. By the time I passed that way a week later it had been resurfaced. If this section of road is well used and defective, there will have been other incidents there. Try chatting to a local Garda.


Carnmore said:


> Two passersby stopped to help me and commented on how greasy underfoot the road was.


This suggests that there was surface grease present, as even the smoothest of road surfaces shouldn't stand out as slippery to a pedestrian. Any trees in the area? The compounds released as decaying leaves are crushed by traffic are extremely slippery (which is why trains get cancelled due to leaves on the track.)


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## argolis (21 Dec 2021)

Peanuts20 said:


> Looking at the OP's original post and follow up, I fear you have already talked yourself into this accident being "someone else's fault". As such, there is always a solicitor somewhere who will take this on. The difficulty will be proving the council's liability, especially if this is a road you were on was one you had cycled many times in the past. Hate to say it, but my reading is that you made a mistake and even if you did prove liability, I'd imagine a judge would reduce the value of an award to take that into account
> 
> It really shows the importance of critical illness/accident cover for the self employed.
> 
> worth having a chat with Citizens information to see if there are any options around social welfare/illness benefit.



I'm self-employed and was advised a long time ago that income protection insurance is a better way to go than critical illness or other policies, which can have exclusions. From what I know, income protection is simpler in that if you can't work for any certified reason then it pays out. As opposed to what happens to you being on a list of approved specific injuries, illnesses, etc. Open to correction on that.

OP, I hope things work out for you and you recover as well as possible.


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## dereko1969 (21 Dec 2021)

OP - sorry to hear of your injuries. Where was the incident? You might get similar reports from other cyclists on the Boards Cycling Forum which could help with the merits of a case. From what you've posted it would seem unlikely you have a case.


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## Brendan Burgess (21 Dec 2021)

As the discussion of insurance is of no benefit to the OP, I have moved it to a new thread.






						Cyclists should get insurance
					

If there was ever a case for some kind of insurance for cyclists this is it. Every time I cycle I know there's the possibility that I'll have some kind of accident. Personal Responsibility comes into this. Accidents are just that i.e. accidents. Nobody sets out to fall from a bike, it just...



					www.askaboutmoney.com


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