# Can I claim against Co. Co. I believe we have lost around 20K value on our home



## gerry2scopes (16 Aug 2007)

Hi guys just wondering if I would have a case against my local Co. Council on the following matter.

Basically I bought my house as an investment about 2 yrs ago with the intention of selling on around now and using the rise in value to move to a different location.

The reason we selected this housing estate is that it was going to be small i.e. +100 houses and isolated from neighboring estates which were older. The  local area was being developed with shops and retail centers and hotels and library so the investment seemed sound. 

The problem is that the C.C. was supposed to widen a road adjoining the estate to allow access to our  development but they never did it even though it was part of the original  plans back in  2003, so we have to access our house from an older development  +8yrs. I recently had to get a valuation done on my house for my mortgage and the auctioneer confirmed what i was thinking that the because we were part of the older development it was holding back our house price increase and the size of the estate is +300 houses.

When we were selecting our house back in 2005 we could have purchased anywhere in Limerick but we chose here because if the place had been finished correctly then it would have been an excellent investment. Now we feel we are losing out through no fault of our own.

As an example most of the houses that were in our price range of 200K are now valued @ between 265-275K and a development across the road from us where houses were 180K are now valued at 250K which is the same as us even though they are much smaller.

I was disgusted at the way I was treated by the C.C. when trying to find out why the road was never widened. The roads dept blamed planning dept and vice versa with no-one giving an answer. the heads of both depts have refused to reply to my calls and emails. They said last year that the road would be done early this yr, and this yr they said next yr maybe and that if I wanted to complain there was no-one I could go to.

I believe we have lost around 20K value on our home and I'm not being greedy but if we want to move then we will have to pay that 20K further on down the line.

If I could attach pictures I would to show you how poor the unfinished development looks.

Any advise would be appreciated as I am thinking of building a case against the C.C.

G2S


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## ClubMan (16 Aug 2007)

*Re: Can I claim against Co. Council*



gerry2scopes said:


> The problem is that the C.C. was supposed to widen a road adjoining the estate to allow access to our  development but they never did it even though it was part of the original  plans back in  2003


Who built the development - the council or a private developer? How binding was this committment to widening the road - e.g. where was it stated that this would happen?


> I believe we have lost around 20K value on our home and I'm not being greedy but if we want to move then we will have to pay that 20K further on down the line.


 I would be skeptical about your chances of being able to sue the council particularly for some subjectively estimated amount of "lost" capital gains but if you feel that you might have a case then you should talk to your solicitor.


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## gerry2scopes (16 Aug 2007)

*Re: Can I claim against Co. Council*

The development was built by a private developer, and when i got the planning number for the c.c. i asked them was there any stipulation about the road being widened, they said that it was on the planning approval that no houses in the development could be occupied until the road was completed ? ? ? 

When I queried this with them they said that the original people involved had left so i asked to speak to the boss but he refused to reply to me. 

They said that maybe the roads dept and the planning dept came to some agreement but there was no evidence of this as i asked to see any amendments that may have been made to the planning approval. 

I don't see why we have to suffer a loss in house price gain because of the c.c. not fulfilling their part of the agreement.

The builder cannot finish the entrance to the site as the c.c. won't allow it due to sight lines issues on the road hence the widening. 

My local councillor has stated that this issue is definitely impinging on our house prices and the auctioneer also agreed with this.

Building a case against them might be difficult i suppose trying to prove loss of house price gain but I feel that we have purchased something that isn't exactly what we had been promised


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## mf1 (16 Aug 2007)

*Re: Can I claim against Co. Council*

And if you win your case, will everyone else in the estate also be entitled to compensation? Do you think the Council will simply hand you over money? 

The best thing you can do is make an appointment with your solicitor and go through all your queries. What you will probably find is: 

a. 
"The problem is that the C.C. was supposed to widen a road "
No actual date given. 

b.
"we could have purchased anywhere in Limerick but we chose here because if the place had been finished correctly then it would have been an excellent investment."
Speculative. You are always on a risk in a new development.   An established estate is "you get what you see". A new development - you hope to get what you understand will eventually be developed. 

c. 
"I was disgusted at the way I was treated by the C.C. when trying to find out why the road was never widened."

Not nice, I agree but does not help your "case".

d. 
"Building a case against them might be difficult i suppose trying to prove loss 
of house price gain but I feel that we have purchased something that isn't exactly what we had been promised"

Who promised you? Is it in writing and is it legally binding ?

e. 

"My local councillor has stated that this issue is definitely impinging on our house prices and the auctioneer also agreed with this."

Would you buy a used car off either of them? 

f. 
"The development was built by a private developer, and when i got the planning number for the c.c. i asked them was there any stipulation about the road being widened, they said that it was on the planning approval that no houses in the development could be occupied until the road was completed "

Have you checked the Planning Permission, is there such a condition and if there is why did you move into the house?

This is not to say you do not have any case but I would be very surprised if you did and if any solicitor was willing to take it on a speculative basis without serious funds up front. Why should anyone else fund your speculative action? 

mf


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## gerry2scopes (16 Aug 2007)

*Re: Can I claim against Co. Council*

Cheers MF1 for taking the time to reply: in response to your questions

a: Surely there has to be some timescale to be abided by, if that was the case building could go for for ages with no completion dates.

b:We just want the development to be completed as outlined in the "plans" because that was why we selected the house, I believe the plans are there for a reason so you know what you are getting

c:Being blanked by the c.c. wasn't nice sure, but if there was an answer why not tell me?

d:Surely the plans are legally binding for the development, I mean if I was to build a house that didn't match my plans when I was given permission i'm sure the c.C. would be knocking at my door

eoint taken

f:We bought the house near completion of development there were already people living there. i only found out about the original stipulation of occupancy in Feb of this year after asking the C.C. whether there were any conditions regarding the road.

It was actually a funny conversation because when i explained to the c.c. that after a year and a half of living there the road wasn't developed the girl told me that I would have a good legal case (against the builder) if i were to pursue it with a solicitor, when i explained that the c.c. were to develop the road she told me she was looking at the wrong plans, (which she wasn't)
G2S


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## ClubMan (16 Aug 2007)

*Re: Can I claim against Co. Council*



gerry2scopes said:


> the girl told me that I would have a good legal case (against the builder) if i were to pursue it with a solicitor


I would very much doubt the authority of such "advice".

What are you going to do? Are you going to talk to a solicitor about this and see if you have a case?


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## gerry2scopes (16 Aug 2007)

*Re: Can I claim against Co. Council*

yeah not sure where to go next with this its probably not even worth pursuing, just kinda sickens me that they can get away with this and i have to take the loss, might talk to citizens advice and see what they say, is there anyone that i can take it further with surely the c.c. have to be accountable to someone, failing that might talk to sol and see whats up.


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## mf1 (16 Aug 2007)

*Re: Can I claim against Co. Council*

Thats all very confused. 

Just a few other things: 

1. What "plans"? There is always a clause in the Contract / Building Agrement stating that the Developer is not obliged to complete the development in accordance with the p.p. Precisely because of these issues. 

2.I still do not understand  why, if there was a condition in the p.p., that no house was to be occupied.....why you occupied? 

Really - go back to your own solicitor and voice all your concerns. There is a large element of naivety in your post ( sorry!) about who takes responsibility for what and why the CC are not being very nice to you. 

You may have a case - I don't think you do. 

mf


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## ajapale (16 Aug 2007)

Moved from Legal & Financial issues to Property Investment which is where the questions relating to property investment are generally to be found.
aj


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## Vanilla (16 Aug 2007)

Agree with mf1, your post is very hard to understand. You say your estate is unfinished- but surely this is for the developer to do, not the council. What exactly is unfinished apart from the road? Is the developer still working in the area or not? Did he have a bond as part of his planning permission until all estate finished? Is there a management company? Who was to widen the road, the developer or the council? Was this in the planning permission? If so what was the wording? 

Even apart from the legal angle, have you thought about organising a meeting of the 100+ householders in the estate? Getting those numbers together will make local councillors sit up and take notice, and getting them to take notice means them putting pressure on the council.  And of course if there is a legal case to be brought either against the developer or the council (?) getting 100+ people to contribute towards the costs will make it accessible.


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## Butter (16 Aug 2007)

I have a lot sympathy for the OP.  I too live in estate which is unfinished, doesn't comply with the actual planning permission granted and whose developers are a nightmare to deal with.  It doesn't help that the county council seem to have very little teeth when it comes to dealing with the developer.  
The planning enforcement officer has queried several outstanding issues with the developer who then responds with "it's being addressed" and that seems to be an acceptable response to the cc.
The cc don't care that we have sewage discharging onto the main road in the estate when it rains and cannot confirm that a future sewage upgrade in the area will alleviate our problems.
Sorry for the moan but it seems to me that builders can more or less do as they please and that ccs do nothing to help and I have tried every possible avenue to get the estate finished.  One big lesson I have learned is that i will never buy a new house off plans in an unfinished estate again.  It really is buyer beware.  Next time it will be a second-hand house in a finished estate that has already been taken in charge by the cc.


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## Kendr (16 Aug 2007)

The Councillor you spoke to 'stated' it was effecting house prices. Well, did you or other residents consider asking him to put a motion down at the next Roads Committee meeting of the County Council that this road be put on a list of works for 2008? This is what councillors do.
Presumably a number of councillors represent this estate/ward, get a residents delegation to meet them and ask for this to be done.


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## gerry2scopes (16 Aug 2007)

Ok to reply to ye, firstly Mf1

1 - I never knew that there is a clause that allows developers to change plans as needed, but surely there would be a paper trail with the c.c. ? No evidence of this has been given. One of the reasons we bought the house was because it was to segregated form the older estate and a new entrance built.

2 - On the occupancy I only found that out after we moved in as i said i got worried after builder left and estate wasn't complete thats when I started investigating. The only thing left to build according to original plans is 2 houses at the proposed entrance which builder can't do until c.c. complete road.

yes I agree about naivety mainly because i never bought a house before but i expect to get what i am paying for no matter what i buy. Thats what kills me i have to pay so much for this and its not right.

Vanilla - I take your suggestions on board having +100 houses support might make them take notice. Not sure if he had a bond or what that is, no management compnany, c.c. to widen road which was in original plans, i don't have the exact wording on hand now.

The developer was around for a while and he was using the space as a dumping ground for another development, I took me 4 months but i got the environment dept to serve him a court order to remove the waste which he did.

The councillor in question decided not to return my phone calls, funnily enough he was happy to call me pre-election.


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## gerry2scopes (16 Aug 2007)

The last picture is where the entrance should go to the road, now I think its a disgrace that the c.c. and the developer can get away with leaving us with this


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Aug 2007)

Gerry

Take Vanilla's very good advice. Don't try to resolve this on your own. There is probably a residents' committee working on it as we speak. The Councillor might not return your call, but he probably won't ignore a request to attend a public meeting.

Brendan


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## gerry2scopes (17 Aug 2007)

> This is an issue for the Planning Enforcement Department of your Local Authority


 
the Planning dept said it was the roads and they said it was the planning, I asked that surely they work together on these sort of developments ? Contact the boss I was told so I did and i got blanked after that, that made me think there was something up.



> This is very strange. If the council granted permission for this entrance, they would have done so because the required site lines were adequate or work could be carried out to achived these. Normally widening in this case is either carried out by the contractor to the council's satisfaction or is carried out by the council who charge the developer by way of a development contribution. Check if they is any mention of a "development contribution" in the planning conditions. If there is mention of one, then check to see if the builder has paid this to the council.


 
The required _sight_ (not site) lines would be sufficient when the road was widened, by the c.c. not the developer which even they thought was strange and there was no "development contribution" in the palnning cond's.
The developer wasn't even obliged to widen the section of road outside the development which would have solved this whole problem.



> This is also very unusual. Was this access to the adjoining estate suppose to be a temporary or pernament measure? Was this part of the Planning Permission? The developer probably should have provided the new entrance before building any houses. Sounds like the developer is using the council as an excuse not to provide the entrance stated in the Planning Permission. He probably thinks he can get out of his obligation to provide an entrance by letting you use the existing one.
> 
> I think it's time to approach your solicitor to deal with the situation. I wouldn't bother taking legal action against the council. Sounds like the developer is the man you should be chasing.Getting the support of the other residents of the estate and your local councillors would also be a good idea.


 
When you walk/drive from the old to the new part of the estate the footpaths stop from either direction and you can see where the space has been given to allow a car to fully turn about, on both sides, as where they both meet is supposed to be 2 cul de sac's.

I'd say that was built as a permanent fixture as its also on the plans although after MF1 said they can change them ? ? So if the dividing wall is built and the 2 cul de sac's created then we have no access to our estate. 

Chasing the developer is no good I reckon cos he just keeps saying that the c.c. have to widen the road then he can complete the entrance and the last 2 houses.

Cheers for the input though


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## MrMan (17 Aug 2007)

> I wonder if your house had increased above your expectations, because of some extra little detail that Co Co provided, would you be rushing to give them the excess? Just a thought.



In a word 'no', he only wanted them to carry out their works as they had originally stated, no extra little detail would increase the value of the house, but indeed a deriliction of duty looks to have had an impact on the estate, and no-one here would want the evidence in those photos sitting outside their front door.


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## gerry2scopes (17 Aug 2007)

Thanks for the support Mr Man, i couldn't believe it when i read the comment too. I sent him a PM to tell him to look at the photos


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## Butter (17 Aug 2007)

I have a lot of sympathy for you.  I moved into a new-build three years ago and the builders left the estate a year ago.  It's still unfinished and dealing with the builder, the county council officals (planning, engineering etc), local TDs and councillors over the last few years has been a nightmare.  I would never buy a new-build again - you just don't know what standard the builders will finish the estate to and it seems there is no legislation in place to help home-owners whatsoever.


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## gerry2scopes (18 Aug 2007)

Its a nightmare alright Marg, what kills me is that there seems to be no accountability for limerick c.c. they can more or less make up the rules as they go. If you buy something no matter what it is you expect to get what you paid for, in this case we didn't. We bought our house to live in a completed estate not a half finished one, if i bought a new car and it wasn't right i would have more of a comeback, but a house is the main investment i will make in my life and if the c.c. don't feel like helping then there is nothing that can be done, its an absolute disgrace to think that local c.c.'s can get away with this


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