# Planning Permission on site when already own a house



## Mr. Tickles (12 Jun 2006)

Dear posters

Firstly a great website / forum - I have already found invaluable information on many threads - thank you.

I'm looking for advice on the following situation - an uncle of my wife's has recently given us a site and told us to seek planning permission on it. The site is situated between my wife's father and her uncle and both of them have, unfortunately, been widowed recently. My wife and I spend a large amount of time with them as a result of these circumstances and building there would be in our interests as well as theirs.

We currently own a house about 6 miles away but would love to be closer to both of them. My wife qualifies under local needs(teaches nearby, lived locally all her life); however we are concerned that our application for planning permission would be rejected straight away as we already own a house. Do you think there is a good chance of our application being rejected on these grounds?

thanks in advance


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## Mr. Tickles (12 Jun 2006)

*Re: Planning Permission on site when already owe a house*

Sorry for typo in thread title - it should read "own a house", not "owe a house" - although the latter is probably more accurate, considering the length of time left on my mortgage!


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## Superman (12 Jun 2006)

*Re: Planning Permission on site when already owe a house*

She doesn't qualify since ye already have a house.

That said, the number of people I've seen fibbing about such things is rather high. (Basically because no FTB could afford to build a house in a greenbelt, unless it's on parents' property)  Of course that means their Planning Permission is actually invalid if anyone starts digging, but most people don't seem to worry.   

But basically, unless she lies, she does not qualify.


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## mobileme (12 Jun 2006)

*Re: Planning Permission on site when already owe a house*

This condition is relevant in the area that I am from too and having spoken to a couple of architects, there are ways around it. One of the ways mentioned to me is that you could look for permission for a house with an ensuite bedroom downstairs stating that you are returning home to look after parent/relative (which seems to be relevant in your case) who may become ill in the future, or to be close when your parent gets older. Ring around some experienced architects in your area, I'm sure they can advise on the ins and outs of the system.

The other way is to sell your current house and provide local authority with letter from estate agent stating you are sale agreed. Obvious problem there is that you have no home while you are building.

Good luck!


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## Superman (12 Jun 2006)

*Re: Planning Permission on site when already owe a house*

As far as I know option one mentioned by mobileme only applies where one is moving a great distance - e.g. from Galway to Dublin etc.  Not 6 miles up the road as it were.  Do check it out though.


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## Mr. Tickles (12 Jun 2006)

*Re: Planning Permission on site when already owe a house*

_ "The other way is to sell your current house and provide local authority with letter from estate agent stating you are sale agreed. Obvious problem there is that you have no home while you are building."_

Thank you, Mobileme and Superman, for your advice. One option we are considering is selling the house and moving in with my wife's father, and then seeking planning. The risk we then face is getting rejected for planning and having no house - is there a condition that you can't have owned a house in the last five years or is it just my imagination?

Also, the guidelines are open to interpretation (or is it just me trying to stretch them?!) - they are something like "where current living conditions are unacceptable". Is it stretching them to say at the moment they are unacceptable for my wife who spends as much time as possible with her dad / uncle? We don't want to manipulate their grief but would it be a worthwhile argument?


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## Guest107 (12 Jun 2006)

*Re: Planning Permission on site when already owe a house*

This is different in every county. Once you get into housing need in Galway its a bloody nightmare of the highest order. 

In Galway a principal/keyholder does not have housing need in the area where their school is so I can hardly imagine a teacher being of any import because they are not the keyholder.  In Galway the principal in question ended up living 12-14 miles from an elderly relative .

Then it turns out that IN GALWAY  its the site that has a housing need and NOT THE HUMANS who want to build on it . Owning a gaff will obviate any housing need, I would  tend to recommend selling it but if its only 6 miles it may not help. 

Is there a definiation of 'local' in km in your county, eg is 6 miles (10km) local anyway , is your home in a different DED ?

It also depends on the categorisation of landscape, the story above about the principal was category 3 out of 5 (SAC and National Parks are higher priority landscapes where the stuff gets worse ) .


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## erw fran (12 Jun 2006)

*Re: Planning Permission on site when already owe a house*

if there is a need for you to build a bigger / better equipped house then owning a house is not a definate deal breaker. an extreme example would be living in a one bedroom house with 3 children, there is clearly a need to build a bigger house.


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## Winnie (13 Jun 2006)

*Re: Planning Permission on site when already owe a house*

I was looking into this recently & was told that it would be a definite NO if I already owned a house.
The only suggestion given to me was to sell - don't think this is really viable ....what if you don't get planning & house prices continue to rise....would cost you more to buy a house later then.........
Alternatively move out of the house & rent it out & then you rent a diff house!  I know the Kildare Co. Co. never explicitly asks you if you own a house - it just asks for your addresses over the last 5 years I think then just asks whether you own the house you currently live in..............again that seems a bit mad to me.  
Ridiculous rule!


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## KimWilde (13 Jun 2006)

Why not put your own house in your name. Your wife is now homeless and needs a new house, therefore she should apply for PP. People split up and get back together all the time..


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## Superman (13 Jun 2006)

For Winnie:
In Cork County, they ask if you own any property.  Different LA's must use different forms.


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## Henny Penny (14 Jun 2006)

Hi Mr. Tickles
Have you approached the planning office of your local county council yet? If you arrange a pre planning meeting with the planner and discuss your requirements you may find in light of the family situation the planner may be only too glad to help accommodate your building. Just a suggestion.

HP


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## paulocon (14 Jun 2006)

Henny,

Just on that note. I'd suggest the original poster be careful with the pre-planning meeting. I know of someone who had a pre-planning meeting only for issues mentioned in passing at the meeting to be brought up by the planner several months later...


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## Mr. Tickles (15 Jun 2006)

Hi all

Thank you for your advice  - much appreciated. How about saying we are currently renting our house? Do you think they would investigate further? I'm not sure about pretending  that we've split up - only got married at Christmas!


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## Superman (15 Jun 2006)

Yeah you could do that, however -
when it comes down to it (i.e. in the supplementary application forms) they will ask you to put that in writing.  
Technically if you lie that you don't have another house, your permission is invalid.  
That said, around these parts I'd estimate the number of people you actually qualify for housing need who get permission at about 50% (i.e. 50% lie and say they don't have a house when in fact they do).  
You are running the (possibly slight - but who knows for your part of the country) risk that you are found out and now have a house without permission.


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## JP1234 (15 Jun 2006)

Is is really worth lying on your application form, it would only take one person who sees the site notice to inform the authority and/or object on the grounds that you already own a house and you wouldn't stand a chance.  As your wife is a teacher and lived locally all her life there is a good chance someone in the planning department might know her and know if you are being untruthful, is it worth the risk?  Why not just go in, get one of your elected members to go in with you, you are more likely to get a sympathetic ear if you are honest with them!


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## Superman (15 Jun 2006)

Nice to see you have so much faith in people doing their civic duty JP.
IME, people don't like sticking their neck out. Unless you'd pissed off a neighbour, they are really unlikely to go to the trouble of making a comment on your application.  
Again that is in my experience.    
Personally I don't approve of the system as it stands.  It is abused to an extraordinary extent - in fact it seems to be designed to favour those who simply lie.  

Also nice to see your faith in the philanthropic side of Planners...


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## JP1234 (15 Jun 2006)

Superman said:
			
		

> Nice to see you have so much faith in people doing their civic duty JP.
> IME, people don't like sticking their neck out. Unless you'd pissed off a neighbour, they are really unlikely to go to the trouble of making a comment on your application.
> Again that is in my experience.
> Personally I don't approve of the system as it stands. It is abused to an extraordinary extent - in fact it seems to be designed to favour those who simply lie.
> ...


 
Oh I know, I am forever hopeful!    I agree that it's unlikely a neighbour would complain, IME it's usually not near neighbours but serial objectors/people from outside the area  who cause most problems. We had a chap from a neighbouring county who would object to anything from a one off house to major developements in our county!  And yes they planning system is ridiculous at times, I can see why and how it is easily abused.  
My experience of planners has always been ok, never had reason to complain, they are just people doing a difficult job governed by often senseless guidelines.

Back OT, only the OP can decide if they really want to do this, there is no real "need" involved, so answering the original question:


> Do you think there is a good chance of our application being rejected on these grounds?


The answer is clearly yes, if you already own a house in the locality then you do not fall under local need and it's more than likely you will not get permission.


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## Superman (15 Jun 2006)

You're right about the difficult job.  I have a lot of sympathy for them.


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## bb12 (15 Jun 2006)

No, you wouldn't get permission. They'll find out from the land registry that you're not a first time buyer/builder. Happened to a friend of mine and she was told by the planners to basically forget it.


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## Mr. Tickles (15 Jun 2006)

what about transferring the house into my name and getting wife to apply for planning on her own? any point in that?


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## Superman (15 Jun 2006)

In Cork they ask if you've ever owned property on the Supplementary Application Forms. I'd be surprised if they didn't do something similar in other LA's.


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## JP1234 (15 Jun 2006)

Wouldn't they still question why she needed to build a new house when she already is living in the marital home? It's not as if there is any genuine *need* here which is what the authorities will be looking at.


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## lfcjfc (16 Jun 2006)

Slightly off topic but there seem to be a lot of posters on this thread with experience of planning around the country.
I would be interested to know what people's experience is with regards to sites with existing old/derelict dwellings on them. Is the presence of such a dwelling a guarantee of planning permission? does it obviate the need to demonstrate a housing need in the area?
Just wondering if trawling the countryside for derelicts is the way to go??


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## mobileme (16 Jun 2006)

bb12 said:
			
		

> No, you wouldn't get permission. They'll find out from the land registry that you're not a first time buyer/builder. Happened to a friend of mine and she was told by the planners to basically forget it.


 
You don't need to be a *first time* buyer/builder to qualify for local needs. You just need to satisfy the requirement to have a need for housing i.e. not currently own property anywhere else. So the OP could, in theory, sell existing house and rent or stay with relatives while building.


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## Superman (16 Jun 2006)

lfcjfc:

It does not guarantee Planning:
Traffic considerations, environmental impact, design of the dwelling can all cause refusal.  It *should* obviate the need for local housing need and furthermore allow for a development of some kind on the site. (That said, the last 2 applications I've dealt with derelict properties, the LA has asked for supplementary application forms to prove housing need.  These are both being queried at the moment.)  

Sites with derelict houses have a premium on them for this reason.


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## Mr. Tickles (19 Jun 2006)

Thank you all for your advice - not sure whether I should be optimistic or depressed! 

I hate the random nature of this - as superman pointed out, about 50% of cases similar to mine get approved, and I know of many home-owners who have been approved for planning without any questions asked about their current living situations - why is that?

Anyway, I'm a rubbish liar so I'm just going to hope for the best - we have the plans drawn up and are going to submit them this week. Will let you know how we get on anf thank you again for your advice - much appreciated!


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## emily_moss (19 Jun 2006)

Hi

I am in a similar situation.  I own a house within the city boundary and want to apply for planning permission in the area I am from very close to my parents.  My architect advised that if I was questioned on the house in town to say it is rented out.  He is doing the same for himself and so far has no problems.
He said that it is not stated anywhere that you cannot own another house - Don't think you should quote me on this though.


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## Mr. Tickles (19 Jun 2006)

thanks Emily

would that not suggest that you don't have a "need" for a house, if you can afford to rent out the one you own?

best of luck with it - when do you submit your plans?


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## DeBarr (19 Jun 2006)

Interesting post as I may soon be in the same boat. My wife and myself are currently living in Dublin –we, along with the bank, own our house and are hoping to move to Co. Wexford with our 3 young kids. My wife is originally from Wexford and is being given a ¾ acre site by my mother-in-law on which to build – she lives on her own in the country and is getting on a bit - the site is beside her house. We fully intend to finance the build by selling the house in Dublin (we could not afford this otherwise) but do not want to sell the place until we have full planning permission in place. I’ve been reading on this and other threads that if you own a house you may not get planning permission approved. Would that apply in this case when we are moving from Dublin to Wexford?


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## Guest107 (19 Jun 2006)

Yes, its also a test of whether you are long term committed to Wexford so selling has that effect on planning if you will , they would be sceptical if you kept your bolthole in Dublin. 

It also depends on how difficult your wifes are is, wexford would have some difficult and some easy areas for planning like all counties, its not a one size fits all thing....except in Wickila I'd say  

You may as well sell high if you are going anyway, I'd also say building in wexford will be very cheap once the bubble bursts .


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## DeBarr (19 Jun 2006)

Hi 2Pack

Thanks for the reply. 

I noticed also from the planning application form (see below) that you are asked if you would commit to permanent residency in the house for 7 years if planning is approved and also if you would agree not to develop further sites on the land. 
I'd have no problem with this whatsoever as I plan to stay in Wexford for good but would be slow to sell the house in Dublin until planning is granted. Otherwise we could potentially be stuck in property "limbo" which would leave us a) without a roof that we own over our heads which is real peace-of-mind when you've 3 kids below school going age and b) leave us at a financial disadvantage in that we could be forced down the line to buy a house in a market that has advanced further rather than build in the meantime.

I would rather a clause along the lines of "Would you agree to sell your existing PPR in the event of planning being granted." and if you say yes an then renege on that then planning may be revoked.

From the planning application form:
 Indicate if, in the event of a Grant of Permission, you would be willing to accept an   Occupancy Condition restricting the first occupancy of the proposed house for a period of 7 years, as a place of permanent residence to yourself and other members of your immediate family only:                                                        Yes   p       No  p
(13)     Indicate if, in the event of a grant of Permission, the landowner would be willing to enter into a  formal agreement for a period of 7 years NOT to develop further sites? If yes, submit letter of consent  from landowner and a map showing extent of the entire landholding:


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## Guest107 (19 Jun 2006)

DeBarr said:
			
		

> I would rather a clause along the lines of "Would you agree to sell your existing PPR in the event of planning being granted." and if you say yes an then renege on that then planning may be revoked.


I fully agree with you on that linkage, at least  in principle.  I would even fine you €100 for every day you fail to sell it   after date xxx

The planners in Wexford may be straightforward and honest but the interpretation of Housing Need is different everywhere in the country and even within a county depending on subzoning  . On the other hand the planners could be the lying incompetent scum spawn of the devil like the ones I and my neighbours have dealt with in Galway .

You may take it from what I have seen that the planners will normally not give a flying damn about an elderly person who would like their daughter to live next door and to be on hand to bring them to the shop and church on a Sunday .

You will have a  no resale (enurement clause)  for 7 years, mine is 15 but thats not a problem with me . Wexford ask if you mind, Galway could slap a lifetime enurement on you at a whim....or a 15  year or a 12 or a 10 or none , all utterly arbitrary in my experience.


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## Mr. Tickles (20 Jun 2006)

I agree with you completely, DeBarr and 2Pack - and likewise,I have no intention of keeping my current home if I get planning permission. one mortgage is enough of a headache. Your final comment, "all utterly artitrary in my experience" is very true too. We have been talking with people in our local area who have had no problem getting planning despite owning property nearby, and then others who got rejected straight away...mmm.

On another point, would anyone be able to tell me the minimum sight lines needed from your entrance - it's a 60km speed zone, on edge of town - am i right in believing 90m is sufficient? Or does it vary from different LAs?


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## Guest107 (20 Jun 2006)

I thought 60kph was normally restricted where 50kph is not . A 60kph on a national road is off limits . On a regional road it depends on the local authority engineers and other stuff.

Shared entrances are also a total non non . Does yer ma in law have 2 gates handy  ???


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## Mr. Tickles (20 Jun 2006)

2Pack said:
			
		

> I thought 60kph was normally restricted where 50kph is not . A 60kph on a national road is off limits . On a regional road it depends on the local authority engineers and other stuff.
> 
> Shared entrances are also a total non non . Does yer ma in law have 2 gates handy  ???


 
hi 2Pack

Would you mind clarifying this for me (I thought 60kph was normally restricted)? thanks - I am on a regional road, about 200 metres from where the 50km ends - we are hoping to use an agricultural entrance that is rarely used - uncle is retired farmer who keeps a few cattle and the entrance would be used about four / five times a year, if even


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## Guest107 (20 Jun 2006)

No hard and fast rules except that the slower it is then the easier it is to get planning permission. But you have an existing gate 'handy' which is a help . Opening a new entrance onto certain roads may be expressly prohibited. 

You have read your local county development plan and the local area plan I trust. The broad rules are always in there on paper .

The planning 'vocabulary' is different from county to county as well 

A _Schedule D_ in Wexford could be an _Area Objective 3 _in Clare and a _Note 2b_ clause in Donegal. Thats why we non Wexfordians cannot be any more specific . Sorry. 

You really must research this properly and get someone in the area who was thru the system under the current county development plan to clarify it for you. Some councillors or TDs office  staff are good at explaining mainly because they understand it , lots of them are only total gobsheens who will not and cannot explain anything but you should understand the important bits yourself in case you shoot yourself in the foot .

If you don't want to understand then get an agent to do the lot for you , plans/applications/forms dealings with officials .


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