# Protected structure section 5 & 57 questions



## MrsH (23 Nov 2011)

Hi,

I was hoping someone could give me some advice.

My husband and I are about to get the keys for our house next Friday which is very exciting.

However the roof does need a bit of repairing and it's a protected structure so I know it isn't going to be straightforward!

My question is whether for roof repairs, it is just some of the flashing that needs repairing and some of the timbers but just a very few, we will need to apply for full planning permission?  Can we apply for a section 5 for this instead or a section 57?  Is it true that section 57s take 3 months to come through and does anyone know if this is how long a section 5 answer takes to get?

If the answer is that if for roof repairs we wouldn't need to go for full planning, would this also be the case if we were actually replacing the roof?

Any advice much appreciated!

Thanks.

MrsH


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## onq (23 Nov 2011)

Hi Mrs H

From The Irish Statute Book

_*"5.*—(1) If any question arises as to what, in any particular case,  is or is not development or is or is not exempted development within  the meaning of this Act, any person may, on payment of the prescribed  fee, request in writing from the relevant planning authority a  declaration on that question, and that person shall provide to the  planning authority any information necessary to enable the authority to  make its decision on the matter._"

A Section [broken link removed] takes 4 weeks and costs €80.
This is the [broken link removed].posted for information only.
These references are from the Dublin City Council website as examples.

However...

The nature of a protected structure is such that the Exempted Development Schedule does not apply.
By that I mean that works that might normally be carried out without planning permission now need planning permission.
There may be provisions of the development plan which impose special restrictions on carrying out any works within their area of operation, such as an Architectural Conservation area.
Equally some requirements may be relaxed due to the Protected Nature of some structures providing work will be carried out to the highest conservation standards.

As against all of this there is ranged Section 4(1)(h) of the Planning and Development Act 2000.

_"(h) development consisting of the carrying out of works for the  maintenance, improvement or other alteration of any structure, being  works which affect only the interior of the structure or which do not  materially affect the external appearance of the structure so as to  render the appearance inconsistent with the character of the structure  or of neighbouring structures;"_

This general principle is further qualified by Section 57

_"*57.*—(1) Notwithstanding __section 4 (1)(h),  the carrying out of works to a protected structure, or a proposed  protected structure, shall be exempted development only if those works  would not materially affect the character of—
__ (__a) the structure, or
(__b) any element of the structure which contributes to its special  architectural, historical, archaeological, artistic, cultural,  scientific, social or technical interest."_​You may be forced to make a referral under Section 57

The substance of your referral will centre on which prevails, 
(i) the removal of the ability to avail of exempted development provisions by the Protected Status or 
(ii) the provisions of Section 4(1)(h), per the qualification of Section 57 above.​  However if you go the Section 57 route, its 12 weeks.

Depending on the detail of the work, you may need permission.
I've been told by two separate sources that a recently ruling by the Board of Appeal seems to have raised up Section 4(1)(h).
You will need to find out whether the local authority will allow you to make request a Section 5 Declaration on a Protected Structure.
From my reading of the Act it doesn't seem to preclude it.

I think if you were replacing the roof or part of the roof you would have to retain a competent architect to -


 survey the roof
 specify the work
 conduct limited inspections
 issue a letter or compliance
 make photographic record of the process and the completed works.
  You might avoid having to apply for planning permission that way.
That is, providing you were using original materials and construction methods.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                             as a defence or support - in and of itself -        should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                             Real Life with rights to inspect and issue      reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## lowCO2design (23 Nov 2011)

have a consultation with an experienced conservation architect - it may just be a case that they refer you to a some good tradesmen..


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## Superman (24 Nov 2011)

Echo LowCO2's comments:
If it is only a small repair using existing or similar material to patch, then no permission may be needed.
Best to present that to the conservation officer in a competent way however, so that the officer trusts you. You can do that yourself or by means of an architect/conservation architect.


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## MrsH (24 Nov 2011)

Thanks for the responses guys.  According to the Dublin city website, it looks like you can apply for a section 5 for a protected structure...I'm going to speak to a couple of good roofers and get them to have a look and advise me before ringing up the conservation officer that way I can be armed with all the information I could need.  Hopefully I can avoid the need for an architect for roof repairs if I get a competent roofer.

Thanks again.


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## Superman (24 Nov 2011)

MrsH said:


> Hopefully I can avoid the need for an architect for roof repairs if I get a competent roofer.
> 
> Thanks again.


Competent in this situation would mean someone who has worked on natural slate roofs before - in particular someone who has done repair work to existing roofs of protected structures.


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## onq (24 Nov 2011)

Required competence in this case may mean a conservation grade(1, 2 or 3) accredited architect like BKF who will certify the works.

Buchan Kane and Foley
32 Fitzwilliam Place Dublin 2 Ireland
Tel:+353-1-6763404
Fax:+353-1-6762940

Connection - I've passed work on to them to take to site on a job in Palmerston Road, Dublin 6.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                              as a defence or support - in and of itself -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                              Real Life with rights to inspect and issue       reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## MrsH (24 Nov 2011)

Hi guys,

I've spoken to a conservation officer in Dublin city council and ive been informed i won't need to go through full planning, just a section 5 and I just need to have a roofer who knows what he's doing, not an architect, which I'm in the process of finding! 

Thanks for the advice all.


MrsH


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## lowCO2design (24 Nov 2011)

MrsH said:


> Thanks for the responses guys.  According to the Dublin city website, it looks like you can apply for a section 5 for a protected structure...I'm going to speak to a couple of good roofers and get them to have a look and advise me before ringing up the conservation officer that way I can be armed with all the information I could need.  Hopefully I can avoid the need for an architect for roof repairs if I get a competent roofer.
> 
> Thanks again.


alot of roofers are not competent to work with lead and other conservation materials/methods, best to not get any actual work done, until you speak to either the conservation officer or an architect


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## onq (25 Nov 2011)

Mrs H

I've spoken to one colleague who is involved in remedial work who has witnessed a lead gutter 6M long held in place by bath sealant.
This stuff may not be brain science, but someone able to carry out traditional leadwork, for example, may be difficult to find.

Also the sourcing of slates which will not look out of place is an art in itself and you may be re-roofing and salvaging one plane of the roof to get enough slates to remediate the front roof for example.
In the worst case, you might have to replace an entire roof plane to maintain good appearance and then you're starting to get into source matching and not just colour, so you may have to trawl building material salvage yards here and abroad to get the right match.

Either ways it is NOT something I would let a modern roofer at by himself on the basis that you could save money by not appointing a competent professional.
Modern roofers seem to know little or nothing - I've seen modern copper roofers lay a roof with the seam perpendicular to the fall, trapping water.

You get what you pay for.

H[broken link removed] is an example of workmanship from a UK website - Irish weather conditions may require more onerous detailing work.
Note the short lengths of lead being worked - lead has a large co-efficient of expansion and must be well-jointed to traditional methods to remain sealed.

[broken link removed] is an example of chimney flashing and counter flashing from the same website - no there are not two different flashings one at the upper one at the lower
Higher up the chimney is shown the "soakers" which butt up against the chimney and offer a vertical lead shield which is not fixed to allow movement.
Lower down the chimney are shown the flashings which are fixed to the chimney and are allowed drape freely.
These two pieces are not fixed together - they must move relative to one another and the roof and chimney.
All the parts of the building and roof expand and contract, so movement joints are important.

The above examples are used to show you the principles involved - they are not my details nor do I stand over them.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                               as a defence or support - in and of itself  -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                               Real Life with rights to inspect and issue        reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## onq (25 Nov 2011)

Mrs H

I note you've already been regarding the need to retain competent professionals to oversee work to the house.


ONQ

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                                as a defence or support - in and of  itself  -         should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                                Real Life with rights to inspect and issue         reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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