# ESRI are proposing a property charge of €2.50 per €1,000 valuation?



## SarahMc (17 Apr 2012)

So I read that ESRI are proposing a property charge of 2.50 per 1,000, with exemptions for the very low paid.

It seems expensive to me, the average property charge will be €500 if this is implemented, i had thought it would have been around €300.


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## newirishman (17 Apr 2012)

Much more interesting is how the valuation will be done - there's a 15 year history of completely rubbish valuations in this country...


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## PaddyBloggit (18 Apr 2012)

€2.50 per 1,000 what?


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## dewdrop (18 Apr 2012)

of the value of the house. how this will be ascertained is another question


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## Shawady (18 Apr 2012)

Joe Higgins was suggesting that in a couple of years households could be paying up to €1,000 a year on property and water charges. It sounded like scaremongering at the time but might be accurate enough.


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## theoneill (18 Apr 2012)

I find this worrying. Does this mean you will pay more tax if you converted your attic or added a small extension? If so it's very reminiscent of the window tax. I would have thought a site valuation tax would be the fairest option. It just seems lazy to me.


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## bazermc (18 Apr 2012)

theoneill said:


> It just seems lazy to me.


 
I think you have just summed up bully boy Hogan in one word.

I cannot believe after the mess that was the house hold charge that he is now running the water charge scheme


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## potnoodler (18 Apr 2012)

Of course you'll be able to deduct the amount outstanding to the banks , 
Some cheek of them to tax you on a notional value, despite how much debt is owed


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## oldnick (18 Apr 2012)

We will be continually reminded how the UK council charges are based -roughly -on a formula that is much higher that .25% of value. 

There are millions of homes in U.K. (and all over Europe) paying well over a grand a year. Indeed, very few UK houses are paying under £500 -even in low priced areas like N.Ireland.

I think an average of a grand a house is on the cards - more in Dublin.


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## DerKaiser (18 Apr 2012)

At the end of the day, we are running a deficit of €10bn p.a.  

€1k a household for the various property levies, water charges, etc would close this gap by about €1.5bn.  So it isn't off the wall in terms of what needs to be done


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## demoivre (18 Apr 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> At the end of the day, we are running a deficit of €10bn p.a.
> 
> €1k a household for the various property levies, water charges, etc would close this gap by about €1.5bn.  So it isn't off the wall in terms of what needs to be done



Yes we need amounts of this magnitude.  €1.5bn was paid to unguaranteed AIB bondholders on April 11 and hardly a word about it ! €1,100 roughly per household which is 11 times the current household charge !


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## Guns N Roses (18 Apr 2012)

newirishman said:


> Much more interesting is how the valuation will be done


 
Will the valution not be based on current selling prices?

For example: 
I paid €290,000 for 5 bed house in 2006.
Vacant house next door is selling for €140,000

140,000 divided by 1000 multiplied by 2.5 is 350.

Therefore my yearly property tax is €350.

Is it not as simple as that?


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## theoneill (18 Apr 2012)

Also, if this is intended to pay for local services will the quality of the local service be taken into account? If my local council provide the bare minimum of service will I be expected to pay the same amount as someone where the council provide excellent facilities?


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## Shawady (18 Apr 2012)

Guns N Roses said:


> Will the valution not be based on current selling prices?
> 
> For example:
> I paid €290,000 for 5 bed house in 2006.
> ...


 
You can bet the government will want to avoid hitting pensioners too hard with a property tax so I assume income will be taken into account.
I'm sure there are a lot of retired people that on paper are living in a reletively valuable house but may have a modest pension.


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## DB74 (18 Apr 2012)

theoneill said:


> If my local council provide the bare minimum of service will I be expected to pay the same amount as someone where the council provide excellent facilities?



Obviously you will be expected to pay more so that your council can get up to speed. Someone living in a county where the council provide "excellent" services (I'll have to come back to you with where exactly this county is!) will pay less cos their council don't need as much money.


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## justasking2 (18 Apr 2012)

Having lived in the Uk and paid the council Tax I can confirm that yes it would have been in anything in the region of £500 - £2000. depending on the borough(county) you lived in and the value of your property. Properties were banded A-E. Obviously it would have been alot easier to band house in an area as they would generally be the same ie a street of three bed terraces would all be banded the same regardless of any extentions loft coverstions or state of the property. Also you then have to take into account what you get for your money in the UK. Street lights, bin collections fire, ambulance and police. School books (Yes you only need give your kids a uniform to go to school) drain maintenence, road sweepers, local councils I sure the list goes no. But what will be get, Oh clear the countires debt that we the average Joe Soap had no hand in running up in the firt place !!!

I think Phil Hogan will need to think long and hard before he decides on how this is going to be implemented !


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## SarahMc (18 Apr 2012)

Shawady said:


> You can bet the government will want to avoid hitting pensioners too hard with a property tax so I assume income will be taken into account.
> I'm sure there are a lot of retired people that on paper are living in a reletively valuable house but may have a modest pension.



Single people with an income of < €15k, and couples €25k will be exempt. With this exemption, it would be very hard to argue for a blanket exemption for OAPs.

I imagine it will be based on current valuation, and linked somehow to the new property price database.
It would be a nonsense to base it on what you bought it for. Sure people are still living in houses they bought for 3 shillings.


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## potnoodler (18 Apr 2012)

Makes a council housing list more and more attractive


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## DaveyWavey (18 Apr 2012)

Allowing waivers for those on social welfare just widens the "poverty trap" in preventing some people from taking up employment. Better to either reduce social welfare top-line rates or deduct property tax at source from payments. In the UK, everybody pays even those in receipt of welfare and housing benefit making it a universal tax.

Better still, scrap the idea entirely and have the government tackle the disgraceful waste of money in expenditure.


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## theoneill (18 Apr 2012)

If my local authority decide to invest in proper facilities then a properly devised property tax is fair enough. Small chance of that happening.

Also I'm wondering where the breaking point is going to be. As far as I can see the trend is for a great many little taxes, these all add up, there has to be a point when the vast majority just cannot pay.


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## Troy McClure (18 Apr 2012)

DerKaiser said:


> At the end of the day, we are running a deficit of €10bn p.a.


 
Errr Croke Park is a huge part of keeping this deficit. A herd of elephants in the room. Like other have said if there were services inplace then no problem. Especially in some rural areas when the council barely maintain roads if at all.


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## alexandra123 (18 Apr 2012)

DaveyWavey said:


> In the UK, everybody pays even those in receipt of welfare and housing benefit making it a universal tax.



+1 on the above


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## DerKaiser (18 Apr 2012)

Troy McClure said:


> Errr Croke Park is a huge part of keeping this deficit. A herd of elephants in the room. Like other have said if there were services inplace then no problem. Especially in some rural areas when the council barely maintain roads if at all.



I don't make a habit of defending public service pay or numbers, but what's the payroll of the public service, €15bn or so?  You'd be lucky to get a €1bn net of taxes saving from a 10% cut to gross wages.

To cut the €10bn deficit we'll probably need €2-3bn from Croke park, €2bn from social welfare cuts, €1.5bn from household/water charges and further other smaller measures. 

If Croke park is not delivering the required savings there will be cuts, but you're obviously not going to make all the €10bn savings out of public service pay.


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## DerKaiser (18 Apr 2012)

DaveyWavey said:


> Allowing waivers for those on social welfare just widens the "poverty trap" in preventing some people from taking up employment. Better to either reduce social welfare top-line rates or deduct property tax at source from payments.


Spot on - it gets to a stage where there are so many waivers that it really begins to feel like working is a mugs game.

If I was Enda and the boys I'd be saying that any waivers for OAPs & those on social welfare would be funded from direct reductions in state pension and the dole (possibly in addition to cuts already being considered e.g. waivers ad a 10% cut or no waivers and a 5% cut - take your pick)


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## SarahMc (18 Apr 2012)

I'd be interested to see how credits (UK) or exemptions work in other countries for those with low or no income. We cannot be unique in having families trapped in NE, with an inability to liquidate their 'asset' in order to avoid the charge. 

OAPs are not the issue really, most have no mortgages, can downsize or leave it for Probate to deal with. Its the working poor in horrific negative equity that really need to be examined in this. But what could you do, exempt those on FIS? In order to get FIS one needs to be working, and it is a fairly good stepping stone out of the welfare trap.


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## ajapale (19 Apr 2012)

SarahMc can you provide a link to the ERSI report/study/proposal?

How does the ERSI suggest the valuation is done?


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## allie12 (19 Apr 2012)

What about the "flat rate" for apartments? We both work and are gone over 10 hours a day- we are pretty water conscious and with only two in the apartment would not use dishwasher/washing machine a huge amount. Compare this to three of our neighbours, one runs her business out of her apartment (she minds 3 kids) and two others are full time stay at home Mums with 2 kids (again their useage would be much more than ours).

So if we have no meters, just the flat rate- how do we calculate how much we go above the "free allowance"?


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## Protocol (19 Apr 2012)

Ajapale,

see www.esri.ie


[broken link removed]


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## SarahMc (19 Apr 2012)

[broken link removed]

I confess I haven't read it in full yet, just the headlines.


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## ajapale (19 Apr 2012)

Thanks for the link.

I notice that the word tenant is not mentioned once in the report so we can asume that the proposal remains as a _*property owners*_ tax.


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## newirishman (19 Apr 2012)

ajapale said:


> Thanks for the link.
> 
> I notice that the word tenant is not mentioned once in the report so we can asume that the proposal remains as a _*property owners*_ tax.



It is a tax on the asset, so it is the owner that's paying....


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## davep (21 Apr 2012)

theoneill said:


> Also, if this is intended to pay for local services will the quality of the local service be taken into account? If my local council provide the bare minimum of service will I be expected to pay the same amount as someone where the council provide excellent facilities?



I live in the country. Local services???? I pay for my bins. I pay for my water scheme water connection. The road is pot holed...what exactly am I paying for?????????????


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## bullworth (21 Apr 2012)

allie12 said:


> What about the "flat rate" for apartments? We both work and are gone over 10 hours a day- we are pretty water conscious and with only two in the apartment* would not use dishwasher/washing machine a huge amount*. Compare this to three of our neighbours, one runs her business out of her apartment (she minds 3 kids) and two others are full time stay at home Mums with 2 kids (again their useage would be much more than ours).
> 
> So if we have no meters, just the flat rate- how do we calculate how much we go above the "free allowance"?



According to many sources, dishwasher actually save water and energy and therefore are actually good for the environment.

As for someone who stays at home all day, I can't see them taking baths or watering the garden all day. Wouldn't the difference just be a few cups of tea  as whether you stay at home all day or spend more of the day away wouldn't your laundry and plant watering etc have to be done anyway and would be done at home ? In fact if someone goes to work don't they end up with more dirty clothes to wash and might they not take more showers ? I have often had a shower after coming home from work.  To be fair minded you can't judge someone for being a stay at home mum.


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## bullworth (21 Apr 2012)

davep said:


> I live in the country. Local services???? I pay for my bins. I pay for my water scheme water connection. The road is pot holed...what exactly am I paying for?????????????




You are paying for the local council managers Yacht, private schools for his kids and the high cost of petrol he puts into his merc 

If the local councils have funds withdrawn from local government which is not replaced by you then they might actually have to behave like normal businesses and start laying unproductive people off, cutting waste, streamlining how they operate and tying in salary with productivity. It's far easier to use the apparatus of the state to empty your pockets.


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## allie12 (23 Apr 2012)

bullworth said:


> According to many sources, dishwasher actually save water and energy and therefore are actually good for the environment.
> 
> As for someone who stays at home all day, I can't see them taking baths or watering the garden all day. Wouldn't the difference just be a few cups of tea as whether you stay at home all day or spend more of the day away wouldn't your laundry and plant watering etc have to be done anyway and would be done at home ? In fact if someone goes to work don't they end up with more dirty clothes to wash and might they not take more showers ? I have often had a shower after coming home from work. To be fair minded you can't judge someone for being a stay at home mum.


 
I am not judging people for being a stay at home mum, but I do know that my sister who is a stay at home mum her water useage would be a huge amount more than us. We get a lot of our work clothes dry cleaned as both have to be suited & booted, we have only one set of bed clothes to be changed regularly (unless we have guests). We have often taken my neices/nephews and my god the difference in everything water/electric/heat! I am just saying that a flat rate for all apartments (depending on what is it) is not a fair way either-and won't encourage people to save water.
I lived oversea's where we always had to buy in our water, so have no problem with water charges & think we need to conserve (as I look out at the p*ssing rain) so am just curious about how they will calculate the flat rate!


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