# Sick pay for employee getting laser eye surgery



## argentina

Our company has a policy of payinf employees in full for absences due to illness.  normally we require a sick cert when an employee is absent for more then 3 days.  Recently employees have been taking sick leave to get laser eye surgery.
las week an employee that reports to me presented a sick cert stating that he will be absent for the last two weeks in July while he is rcovering from his laser eye surgery.
Our T&C's of employment state that we pay full pay on presentation of a sick cert so without changing the company policy on sick pay there is not much I can do about this individual.  I don't want to raise it with the MD as I fear he may change the Company sick pay policy and others will suffer.
Real problem is that I know this guy is doing it now so he will be ready for the rugby season in the autumn but it really does not suit me for him to be absent for 2 weeks in July, its our busiest time and will be difficult for other team memberrs to cover for him.  Can I sak him to pospone it until September or is this illegal.
Other point is can we have a policy that doesn't pay for absenses for cosmetic surgery, or does it matter why the employee is absent once he/she has a cert.  Reason I ask is, suppose an employee was getting a face lift or something more dramtic, would the company have to pay sick pay in full for this?? - think I know the answer!
thanks


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## PaddyBloggit

How can an employee present a sick cert in advance of being 'sick'?

---- it looks more like booking holidays than genuine sick leave.

I reckon the company needs to tighten up on this .... surely cosmetic surgery in't an illness and shouldn't be covered?

If somebody has cosmetic surgery the least they could do is take unpaid leave for recuperation.


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## aristotle

That surely doesn't qualify for sick pay, sounds like annual leaves. It's up to the company, pay her if shes a good employee perhaps. Its all give and take.

I would make it clear to her that her absence is going to mean other team members will have to pick up the slack in that "busy" period.


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## mtk

I agree you have to pay. i also agree only way around it would be change policy which may not be good thing  (morale etc impact on others) . Is this very different from materniy leave as it costs money but you have to pay it ??


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## aristotle

Yeah it is very different to maternity leave as that is an entitlement under employment law.


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## becky

mtk said:


> I agree you have to pay. i also agree only way around it would be change policy which may not be good thing (morale etc impact on others) . Is this very different from materniy leave as it costs money but you have to pay it ??


 
I can see the problem you have but I wouldn't be inclined to rule out laser eye surgery - it's only going to happen twice at most. Ruling out cosmestic surgery is really opening up a can of worms. Someone may need cosmestic/dental surgery as a result of an accident.

I had extensive dental work done a few years ago and an implant was a possibility which would have required a hospital stay. In the end I didn't have to go this route but what if I did as a result of an accident?

I don't see a problem with you asking for it to be postponed to a less busier time though.

July is a black out period for leave in department so I would be annoyed if someone booked something like this during this time.


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## Latrade

Generally this form of absenteeism is covered under medical and other visits (so that includes dentists etc) within a policy. Do you have a specific section in your policy or handbook covering such visits? Usually they're at the line manager's discretion, so the company can decide whether to pay or not. I'd say in the case of elective surgery, it would be the similar. However, this all depends on whether you have something stated in the policy.


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## elcato

I had laser surgery done ten years ago and I took the two days off to have the actual operation (takes less than 15 minutes per eye) which were not consecutive. Has things changed now that they need two weeks recovery ? Sounds like your employee is pushing porkies.


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## gipimann

becky said:


> I can see the problem you have but I wouldn't be inclined to rule out laser eye surgery - it's only going to happen twice at most.


 
Just out of interest, it's not 100% guaranteed that it'll only ever happen twice - I've had laser eye surgery 3 times in 2 years....(one eye has had to be corrected twice).

Each time I needed a couple of days off to recover, so scheduled surgery for Thursdays, took Fridays & Mondays as annual leave.  Didn't enter my head to apply for sick leave for it as it was my own choice to have the procedure.


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## becky

gipimann said:


> Just out of interest, it's not 100% guaranteed that it'll only ever happen twice - I've had laser eye surgery 3 times in 2 years....(one eye has had to be corrected twice).
> 
> Each time I needed a couple of days off to recover, so scheduled surgery for Thursdays, took Fridays & Mondays as annual leave. Didn't enter my head to apply for sick leave for it as it was my own choice to have the procedure.


 

Sorry I thought it could only be done once per eye.  Poor you I'm shortsighted and thought about it but almost fainted just reading about it.


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## Mpsox

I'm wondering if he is getting it done overseas?, hence the 2 weeks. You could always ring him at home when he is "recouperating" as part of being a caring employer, just to see how he is getting on.


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## Murfnm

I had laser eye surgery about 3 years ago on a Friday morning (which I took as annual leave).  I was in work the following Monday! Find out what type of laser surgery he is getting done - 2 weeks seems excessive. Or find out where he is getting it done and find out recommended recovery times!


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## AgathaC

A guy I work with had laser eye surgery last year. He was out for two days which were taken as annual leave.


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## argentina

there is a difference between it and maternity leave; we have seperate policies on both maternity and sick pay as do alot of companies.
I don't think its legal for companies to distinguish beteen different types of illnesses, as far as I know if an employee brings in a cert stating he is sick for x number of days you (as an employer) cannot ask what is wrong.  the only thing you can do is send the employee to the company doctor to validate the absence is legitimate.
This employee is looking for 2 weeks off as he is claiming that as his work involves sitting in front of a pc that he cannot come to work and needs to 'rest his eyes'!


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## micmclo

Murfnm said:


> Find out what type of laser surgery he is getting done - 2 weeks seems excessive. Or find out where he is getting it done and find out recommended recovery times!





elcato said:


> Has things changed now that they need two weeks recovery ? Sounds like your employee is pushing porkies.



Harsh replies there imo, let me reply back

Depends if it's Lasik or Lasek for recovery times but we won't go all technical here, not everyone recovers over a weekend.

I did this in 2004, I booked this for a Monday and was advised to take 4 days rest so the plan was to return for the following Monday, that was 5 days sick leave and the company would pay in full.

Due to complications, I need three weeks recovery, I genuinely was not fit to work at a computer. Had to produce certs for all this so got three weeks sick pay in total.

Now people are going to dismiss this and say I should have taken holidays.
I wouldn't think so even if you call it cosmetic surgury, I worked with computers all day, just couldn't take many breaks either due to workload. Made a case to HR and it was approved.

As said, what if I crashed my bicycle on the way to work and needed extensive dental surgery?  Is that also cosmetic surgury and must be taken from holidays? Even if I was in pain?

You're saying to check out recommended times to "rest his eyes". Are you going to second guess a consultant?
Just be aware there are genuine cases and for me, taking medical advice was more important to me then returning to work and straining my eyes at a VDU in an air conditioned office before I was ready.

No, I'm no hypocondriac, didn't miss another day sick in 4 years.
Just complications happen, if the guy's clinic says he needs two weeks then that is what he needs.
How is a company doctor going to know more then an eye clinic?


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## bugler

argentina said:


> This employee is looking for 2 weeks off as he is claiming that as his work involves sitting in front of a pc that he cannot come to work and needs to 'rest his eyes'!



Find out what exactly the procedure he is having. Call up one of these places and ask how long should I refrain from working on a PC post-op?

Something may have changed in the technique, but I doubt an advancement would mean greater recovery time.


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## Murfnm

Your complications arose after the surgery.  You did not request 3 weeks recovery prior to the surgery.  The employee above has requested 2 weeks off prior to surgery.  I have no issue with recovery times, if they are required!


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## sam h

2 weeks for laser seems alot - my sis got hers done on a Friday & took Monday off and was back in work on Tuesday.

Even if the company is generous with their sick leave, the employee has an obligation to minimise the amount of time being taken off and to facilitate the company as much as possible by not electing for the surgury at a busy time (unless his condition warrants it to be done at that time) and keeping the recovery time to a minimum. The company may also decide to employ him else where if the recover means he can't look at a screen for 2 week.  

I would have a chat with him & find out abit more about it - abusing generous company policies leads to them being withdrawn.  Many people opt for laser surgury for cosmetic reasons, rather than being required to be undertaken.


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## JoeB

A distinction must be drawn between cosmetic surgery for cosmetic reasons, and cosmetic surgery carried out to restore normal appearance after an accident. In any event laser eye surgery is not cosmetic at all... it is more like dental work. Cosmetic surgery required after an accident is allowable, clearly.. it's not cosmetic, it's restorative surgery. But a boob job is elective and cosmetic, unless carried out after a masscetomy (spelling?), in which case it's perfectly allowable.

I wouldn't be paying this.

The doctor cannot have provided a 'sick' cert.. he has probably provided an 'unfit for work' cert, which is different. If the doctor is describing this as a sickness, in advance, I would question him on it.

The employee is choosing to have this procedure carried out, so it's elective. It's not a normal sickness. But it is similar to dental work in some respects.

Some examples..
if an employee sits on his bum all day, and decides to get a tattoo on his bum, and can't sit down until it heals, .. and his doctor provides an 'unfit for work sitting down' cert, should the company consider this a 'sick' cert and pay sick pay? Clearly I'd say no to this.


If a guy falls off his bike and must get extensive dental work.. I'd consider this a genuine sickness. But I would limit the amount of sick time off.. to prevent long illnesses breaking the company.

Eye surgery is somewhere in between, and would not qualify as a sickness in my view, it is a self imposed inability to work, due to elective surgery. Unless the guy can get a cert from his doctor stating that the eye surgery is essential, which I doubt.


So in short, I wouldn't pay for this, and certainly not for two weeks. I would allow unpaid time off, which doesn't affect holidays.. but I may not allow even that.


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## fizzelina

I got my eyes done on a Friday morning and was back in work Monday. I found the first few days a little hard as I was on a pc but I took regular breaks and used lots of eye drops to keep them moist. Our company sick pay policy specifically says laser eye surgery is cosmetic and sick pay is not given. To be honest it sounds like the guy is booking 2 weeks off (when even with the other type of surgery 6 days is recommended healing) so that he can also enjoy some time at home. I would have no hesitation telling him it is not a convenient time and cannot be covered under the sick leave policy.


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## Complainer

It does sound like this guy is chancing his arm. But it also opens up some interesting discussions about other kinds of sick leave. If somebody is regularly getting sports injuries, should the company be paying sick leave for these self-induced injuries. Or if the employer is an extreme-sports freak, should the company be paying sick leave from the climbing fall etc? 

Or if the injury results from a traffic accident that is the employee's fault (maybe alcohol induced), should the company be paying sick leave etc?


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## fobs

I suppose it depends on how detailed the company policy on sick leave/absence is and how it is worded. If the policy states all that is erquired is a cert from a doctor then that woukd have to suffice but if it excluded certain items then this would be covered. 

I would ask the employee to provide some evidence of sugergy appointment and written quidelines from the clinic stating time off work required. Ask them why 2 weeks is required.

I know of someone who had severe complications after laser eye surgery and was off work for a long time but this was not known in advance.


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## JoeB

Well, that raises another issue... similar to Complainers above.. what if an employee takes time off for routine, elective surgery and it goes wrong... is his subsequent recovery time considered a 'sickness', or a 'self imposed sickness'?


My sick time policy is not to allow any.. except the statuary minimum, which is none I believe. But in practice I may allow a little time for sicknesses, .. if I feel they're genuine. Can I set a precedent by sometimes choosing to pay sick pay if none is required under the employment contract?


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## cloughy

my wife had this a few years ago, booked time off as leave, had it done on a Thursday and drove back to consultant on the Friday, so no need for 2 weeks, unless they are going abroad to get it done, and combine with a holiday...


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## Brighid

I agree with Cloughy, my sister one eye done  on a wednesday and back to work on Friday. Repeated same for the other eye two weeks later.


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## micmclo

I'd say all the many examples of people here who were back in work or driving within 2 days had Lasik.

If you're not suitable and many are not then the option is Lasek and it is a longer recovery time.

Good for you if you recovered within a day or two but you're comparing two different procedures and then throwing in comments that this lad is going on holidays. A lot of medical experts here I see


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## Murfnm

So what we have established is that the OP needs more information (type of procedure) to make a decision.  OP, I imagine the employee will have to have his absence certified?


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## PaddyBloggit

"OP, I imagine the employee will have to have his absence certified?"

*From OP's initial post:*

_"las week an employee that reports to me presented a sick cert stating  that he will be absent for the last two weeks in July while he is  rcovering from his laser eye surgery."_


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## argentina

HI,
the employee in question has already presented a sick cert.  As far as I know we can't start 'listing' the types of conditions that the company sick pay scheme covers.  If we have a policy of covering peoples pay while they are out sick this has to apply across the board.  If an employee presents a cert from a medical doctor stating that they are not fit to work I cannot as an employer question the validity of that, so I cannot distinguish between the person that tripped while they were drunk and broke their arm OR the person that has cancer.
I think the only option is to change the company sick pay scheme which I think will have a negative impact on other staff members.  I don't think I can change the sick pay scheme to cover pay for illnesses at the discretion of the company because that would mean I would have to ask why an employee is out sick which is against the law!


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## Complainer

argentina said:


> HI,
> the employee in question has already presented a sick cert.  As far as I know we can't start 'listing' the types of conditions that the company sick pay scheme covers.  If we have a policy of covering peoples pay while they are out sick this has to apply across the board.  If an employee presents a cert from a medical doctor stating that they are not fit to work I cannot as an employer question the validity of that, so I cannot distinguish between the person that tripped while they were drunk and broke their arm OR the person that has cancer.


Do you have an option within your company policy to have the employee examined by a company doctor?


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## JoeB

You have other options... you can use a company doctor, as Complainer suggests.. or you can insist that 'sick' notes are not the same as 'unfit for work' notes... especially 'unfit for work' notes that can be issued months in advance of the 'sickness'

If you stick to your current policy you will find yourself paying out for such elective surgerys as boob jobs, laser eye surgery, tattoos,.. and deliberate injuries.. such as someone deliberately breaking their own hand in order to sit at home.

You should be looking at the clauses and limitations listed in a travel insurance policy, or on a general sickness insurance policy.. I have no doubt that the insurance companies would not pay out for elective surgeries, or deliberate self inflicted injuries, whereas the OP seems keen to do that.


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## micmclo

JoeBallantin said:


> such as someone deliberately breaking their own hand in order to sit at home.



Don't fancy going into work tomorrow, I'd love a long weekend

Now where did I leave that hammer?


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## argentina

I can send him to the Company Doctor but I doubt the company doctor will disagree and say he is fit to work; these type of people never say yes or no, it will be some type of mixed response


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## Complainer

argentina said:


> I can send him to the Company Doctor but I doubt the company doctor will disagree and say he is fit to work; these type of people never say yes or no, it will be some type of mixed response


The company doctor will say whatever you pay him to say. At a minimum, he should be able to tell you whether two weeks is anyway reasonable recovery time for this particular procedure.


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## xeresod

Tell him to give you MC2s from the doctor and to complete the part to allow the employer to recoup the illness benefit from Social Welfare. 

The bonus with these is that he will need to sumbit a new one each week, so then you'll know if it's a genuine illness lasting the 2 weeks!


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## Latrade

Complainer said:


> The company doctor will say whatever you pay him to say.


 
Not really the case in practice as they can't lie, only give their opinion based upon the facts provided. Company doctors don't just back up employers at the employer's will unless the medical evidence and the job description warrant such a call. 

As to sick pay, it isn't statutory that you provide it and an employer can develop their own policy and provide different provisions for illness, medical appointments, medical procedures and elected medical procedures. It can have the wonderful caveat of "at the employer's discretion"

If the employer hasn't made distinctions in their policy and has in the past honoured such arrangements, then this puts them in a difficult position. However, it is worth investigating as to whether the 2 weeks is appropriate in the circumstances before making a decision.


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