# Can Mgmt co stop attic conversion?



## Mrs C

We live in a duplex unit, we are the apartment on top of a house, we applied for planning to convert the attic space and have a doormer constructed, the mgmt co insisted on letters from our neighbours saying they have no objections to the works now the family below are being extremely difficult and will not provide a letter as they say it will be too noisy which holds no weight because its to be carried out during work hours, the planning application is as good as granted with no objections so my question is if we cannot get this letter can the mgmt co stop us? as we signed a covenant of lease, I think its called when we bought the apartment which stated that we need the mgmt co expressed permission to alter the building, but surely they cannot stop us if its not a legitimate objection/concern; is that not what planning is for? thank you.


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## lantus

I would be very surprised if your OMC let you did this. They own the attic space and the roof and all structure and you can never own this space regardless of whether you extend it with planning permission (PP). PP does not give you the right to invade private property or trespass, just that all planning requirements have been met. I would also query what the block insurance provider has to say about this and the company's solicitor as well as yours. You are planning to invest a lot of money into this and I don't believe you will own it, nor even have a legal right of access subject to your lease.

 tread very carefully. Your OMC may just be lacking good solid legal knowledge and are maybe just trying to do the right thing, but their ignorance could bite your ass. 

 I don't believe that the letters from neighbours are anything but smokescreen. They could not form any real legal standing. If the OMC had the power to grant you access they would just say yes or no. Some story about complaints from neighbours is rubbish because your neighbours don't own the building any more than you and so have no say in any required changes.

 If you don't have 100% solid legal backing then it wouldn't take much for another member to make a complaint and potentially have this removed.

 If you think permission regarding noise is al you have to worry about then you need to get a solicitor because your walking into a legal nightmare.

 In our development we would never even entertain the idea of a loft conversion even if it were possible. Legal nightmare as you would need to have the lease changed to mark the change in the reserved property versus the demised property. This can only be done in court.

 If you ever tried to sell the unit the purchaser would realise that this was a huge problem.


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## Mrs C

Well I should have said that they have already granted permission for the exact same structure at the end of our block which has been completed that's why we're going ahead with it, regarding the attic space apparently we own the attic space but need permission to alter the roof for the dormer window so where would we stand now?


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## so-crates

It is still an alteration to the fabric of the building and you don't own the fabric of the building, the OMC does.


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## lantus

you should get your contract lease and read what it says re the loft if anything. Then I would ask the OMC what the block insurer said about the other extension. They would of confirmed this in writing and you want same. If they didn't ask them then that's an issue as insurers get upset when you make changes to a building and don't tell them.

Most insurers will have a slew of paper work to complete prior to the work and lots of conditions. All workers must carry there own PL insurance for example. Health and safety statements must be completed and this must all be approved in writing by the insurer before any work starts along with drawings. 

If you have a right of access to the loft then this will be in the lease and it must specifically state this but don't take it for granted that it does nor the fact that just because someone else has done it will all be OK. There are hundreds of houses built illegally without any planning permission.

Start liaising with the block insurer now via your director team.

 Edit: also, the unit space you bought was part of the demised property (your bit) while you may have a right of access to the loft it will be part of the reserved property (the company's bit) in almost all cases as per a balcony. Unless you have a specific lease clause backed up by a map showing the loft outlined as part of the demised property then its not yours regardless of who rightly or wrongly allows you to make an alteration. Bear that in mind. check your lease and engage a solicitor before you spend an awful lot of money on something that you may not even own.


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## Mrs C

Hmmm the person that completed the other conversion and lives in the property is our engineer, he went through everything with a fine tooth comb eg leases and Certs needed for completion and it's on his advice we are pushing ahead, should we still seek legal advice anyway?


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## Mrs C

Just to state also the board of directors are useless along with the guy who works for mgmt co, they do not respond to emails and take forever to do anything so it's very frustrating to get anything done with them!


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## lantus

well the fact that someone who has a level of professional competency has done it is somewhat encouraging (assuming they are a real engineer and registered with Engineers Ireland for example.)

 What did the block insurer say for your engineer friend when he was doing his conversion? Did your engineer friend engage a solicitor or just do everything himself?


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## RainyDay

lantus said:


> well the fact that someone who has a level of professional competency has done it is somewhat encouraging (assuming they are a real engineer and registered with Engineers Ireland for example.)


It sounds like the Engineer has being doing the legal work on this issue, which is not necessarily the best way to go.


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## Mrs C

He is indeed registered, they altered the policy for him apparently, we are employing him in a professional capacity to sign off on the works if it all goes ahead as this is a planning requirement now with the new building regs, everyone who works on the project must be registered insured etc... And yea the engineer has being doing a lot of research for us as we are clueless and he has already been through it all.... 

Another question the guy in the management co is claiming we were not "allowed" submit a planning application without their permission which sounds ridiculous! Surely you can submit all you like as long as you don't go ahead without their permission ?


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## RainyDay

Mrs C said:


> Another question the guy in the management co is claiming we were not "allowed" submit a planning application without their permission which sounds ridiculous! Surely you can submit all you like as long as you don't go ahead without their permission ?



So is it OK with you if I submit a planning application for your front room and kitchen?


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## Mrs C

Obviously that's not what I ment, there's no need to get smart..


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## RainyDay

Mrs C said:


> Obviously that's not what I ment, there's no need to get smart..



I was being slightly facetious, but I presume you get my point. You generally apply for planning for property you own. You don't own the fabric of the building.


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## Mrs C

I do own my property and the attic space I just need permission to alter the roof....


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## lantus

if you 'own' the attic space and you know this then that's a whole different situation. Very different to just say a right of access. Your lease would be specific in that detail which you say you have and your friend has analysed carefully. No ambiguity there then? (Assuming it is all as you have said.)


 just a matter of the OMC and block insurer approving the changes.

 one small query. how many stories is the house below? how many stories are you currently? Just thinking if you go to four stories there may be fire reg. implications. What level do you access at? ground, first , second? and how....


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## Mrs C

I have been speaking to the engineer today to clear these questions up and he said he went through the lease and we do own the attic space.

Regarding fire regs, when we went to view his conversion he did say he had to get it certified and signed off at the request of the management co for fire regs, there is a two story house below us, from what I can remember a fire door has to be placed at the end of the stairs... It did stipulate in the planning that everything must comply with fire regs surely this issue would be raised by the council.? If it was a problem.


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## shesells

Like the others here I cannot understand how you own the attic space, and also why a management company would allow alterations to the roof to facilitate dormer windows to benefit one unit. As a director of our management company I could never envisage permitting it as the roof would cover several units and work in one area may have knock on effects on other parts of the roof

I also don't understand how you "own" anything. Surely as an apartment you're on a long term lease (possibly 999 years from purchase) from the management company. You own the air within the walls but but not the structure. You cannot alter what you do not own. 

I also feel the engineer is not a disinterested party in all of this, independent legal advice may be prudent.


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## Mrs C

I'm sure if it was going to affect the property in a way as to compromise the roof the structural engineer would not go ahead as he lives there this would not make sense, I used to be on the board of directors for our development and I personally wouldn't have a problem with a dormer if someone wanted permission if it was structurally sound and not imposing and they indeed owned the attic and I own what is contained within The building just not the building itself, eg outside walls roof...if I only own the "air" as you say maybe I should ask permission to paint or hang a picture...?


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## lantus

just had a quick read of our lease and there is no way anyone owns the loft. The roof and roof space including the air even is part of the reserved property which is the companies.

 Its pretty clear. Your lease would have to be radically different to this.
 Look under the terms at the beginning which are listed alphabetically. Under structure it should list the roof space. As all structure is the companies it wont be yours.

 Maybe as you have this document you can look for and quote the section where it states you have ownership of the loft/attic space.


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## Mrs C

I will look into tomorrow when I have time thank you for your help


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## RainyDay

Mrs C said:


> I have been speaking to the engineer today to clear these questions up and he said he went through the lease and we do own the attic space.


Is the engineer professionally qualified to advise on what you own and what you don't? Isn't this a job for a legal professional?




Mrs C said:


> Regarding fire regs, when we went to view his conversion he did say he had to get it certified and signed off at the request of the management co for fire regs, there is a two story house below us, from what I can remember a fire door has to be placed at the end of the stairs... It did stipulate in the planning that everything must comply with fire regs surely this issue would be raised by the council.? If it was a problem.


Planning does not address fire safety issues in huge detail. The fire safety certification process addresses that. 


shesells said:


> I also feel the engineer is not a disinterested party in all of this, independent legal advice may be prudent.



I agree - I don't think Mrs C is getting independent, professional, dispassionate advice. The engineer may well be biased by his desire not to expose his own previous works.


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## lantus

a lot of people interpret a 'right of access' as ownership which is not the same thing as actually owning it. Happens all the time with balcony's where people insist they belong to them when in fact they are really part of the roof and the property of the company to which unit owners can enjoy if they want.

 That false perception only persists until there is a fault or leak and then it generally and magically always becomes the OMC's property again!

 As sheshells stated tampering with a roof that several people may rely on as a common entity doesn't seem right.

 What happens if there is a leak say around a Velux window and several units are flooded/water damaged or a window falls open or is left open? Who takes the responsibility? The unit owner who owns the window? The OMC who let them install it? That's a nasty legal fight waiting to happen. If I was a downstairs unit I'd be pulling my lease and putting a stop to all this ASAP.


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## Mrs C

I understand where you are all coming from, but honestly if the management co give the go ahead we're doing it, we will never be able to sell so thats not an issue, regarding leaky roofs etc I know its a possible scenerio but one that would be very rare to cause flooding etc.. I would hope the building standards now would prevent that, we are stuck in this apartment (negative equity etc..) and have an expanding family so on a human level I cant see the real harm in what we're doing.....if insurer alters policy etc...


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## Setanta12

Mrs C said:


> I understand where you are all coming from, but honestly if the management co give the go ahead we're doing it, we will never be able to sell so thats not an issue, regarding leaky roofs etc I know its a possible scenerio but one that would be very rare to cause flooding etc.. I would hope the building standards now would prevent that, we are stuck in this apartment (negative equity etc..) and have an expanding family so on a human level I cant see the real harm in what we're doing.....if insurer alters policy etc...



In case this hasn't been mentioned already - in addition to letters of no objection from neighbours &/other residents - I would get one from the Mgm Co.  Telling you to get letters from neighbours is not the same as granting permission.


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## lantus

Mrs C said:


> I understand where you are all coming from, but honestly if the management co give the go ahead we're doing it, we will never be able to sell so thats not an issue, regarding leaky roofs etc I know its a possible scenerio but one that would be very rare to cause flooding etc.. I would hope the building standards now would prevent that, we are stuck in this apartment (negative equity etc..) and have an expanding family so on a human level I cant see the real harm in what we're doing.....if insurer alters policy etc...


 
 Totally understandable re space and saleability but those are totally separate and personal issues compared to the legalities.


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## PenicillinV

My neighbour in a refurbished apartment duplex complex has converted his attic space without planning permission or approaching the management company.  The conversion was done by a builder's labourer as a nixer.  I am concerned about the fire hazards and and possible compromises to the structural integrity of the complex itself. Any comments welcome. In the event of the management company or the county council/ corporation insisting on the reconversion to attic space who pays the costs for such?


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## Seagull

Given that it's an unauthorised development, any costs involved in fixing it are up to the owner who did it. The issue could be in getting him to pay.


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## michaelm

If the roof isn't being altered (other than a velux to the side or rear) AND less than 50% of the floor area has a height clearance of at least 2.4m then it should be planning exempt, management company issues not withstanding.


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## shweeney

michaelm said:


> If the roof isn't being altered (other than a velux to the side or rear) AND less than 50% of the floor area has a height clearance of at least 2.4m then it should be planning exempt, management company issues not withstanding.



they stated in the first post that they're putting a dormer window in, so the roof _is_ being altered.


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## michaelm

Indeed.  My post was in response to PenicillinV's post on Friday which resurrected this thread . . the first post was three years ago.


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## Seagull

Given that it's a duplex apartment complex, who owns the attic space? My understanding is that this space doesn't actually belong to the owner of the unit, and so they have no right to put in an attic conversion.


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## Tin-Man

I hope its okay to join in on this discussion. We recently moved into a top floor apartment and found that our deeds outline a large portion of the attic area as belonging to us with the rest being designated for the holding of water tanks for the apartments below. There are two entrances to the attic, one from within our property via a folding stairwell and one outside in the corridor that links to the common space in the attic where the tanks are located. The previous owners were the developers of the block and designated this space as theirs to convert in the future. Our attic comes complete with two velux windows already installed to the front of the building (no other attic has this feature) but the rafters (trussed roof) are still in place and have never been removed. My understanding is that the previous owners passed away a long time ago without ever completing the project. The boundary on our deeds also defines the balcony within our boarder of ownership (we are also the only apartment in the complex with a balcony). 
We would like to move forwards with the completion of the conversion and are considering to apply for planning to add another window on to the side of the building which would end up being directly above our balcony and maybe one to the back to allow more light in to an ensuite we plan to install. The whole attic is completely sealed via brickwork from any other apartment in the complex but our manangement company is adamant that we cannot convert because they don't like the idea of it. Our plan is to bring up the issue at the next A.G.M. and offer a decent monetary donation to the residency for the inconvinience any works might induce and perhaps to pay a larger sum towrds the annual management costs going forward.
I suppose my concern is that, are we fighting a losing battle with the managment if they simply oppose our idea or should we just go ahead with PP and let the system decide who has the right to determine the outcome? We will of course have all of the works carried out as per official outlines.


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## Bronte

Mrs C said:


> I understand where you are all coming from, but honestly if the management co give the go ahead we're doing it, we will never be able to sell so thats not an issue, regarding leaky roofs etc I know its a possible scenerio but one that would be very rare to cause flooding etc.. I would hope the building standards now would prevent that, we are stuck in this apartment (negative equity etc..) and have an expanding family so on a human level I cant see the real harm in what we're doing.....if insurer alters policy etc...



I don't see any big deal with what you're doing.  You need to love bomb your neighbours.


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