# Advice on best way to become a Primary School Teacher?



## r2d2

Hi All.....

One of my little d2's wants to become a primary school teacher. Well, at least, that's been her plan for the last few years and still applies. She will be sitting her leaving cert next year and has been advised to avoid a specific 'teaching course' and get as good a 'primary' degree as possible. She will still be 16 when she does her leaving so I guess her career choice could change as she enters college etc. 

What I'd like advice on is what's her best path into primary teaching whilst attaining a degree that will give her the flexibility to have further career choice ? She was in UCD recently for a career day and they suggested she could do an Arts degree and then a further year at the end for her teaching side of things ! If it's of any help she is aiming to try and get 500 points and her favourites subjects are Irish, French and English !

Thanks,

r2d2


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## cole

*Re: Advice on best way to become a Primary School Teacher ??*

Mary Immaculate in Limerick offer a B.Ed in Education and Psychology, looks interesting as you are a qualified primary teacher a the end and it offers another route to becoming an educational psychologist with further study at post grad level. [broken link removed] the link to the course webpage and here's a link to all the primary teaching courses on qualifax (undergraduate).

Hope this helps.


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## cole

*Re: Advice on best way to become a Primary School Teacher ??*

Forgot to mention.... take the advice of the colleges with a large dose of salt....they are in the business of filling seats. If she is sure that primary teaching is for her then she should pursue it.... she could try helping out in the local school for a few days to see if she still thinks it's for her.


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## DrMoriarty

*Re: Advice on best way to become a Primary School Teacher ??*



r2d2 said:


> She [...] has been advised to avoid a specific 'teaching course' and get as good a 'primary' degree as possible.
> 
> [...] She was in UCD recently for a career day and they suggested she could do an Arts degree and then a further year at the end for her teaching side of things !


She's either getting her advice confused, or she's getting confused advice...

An Arts (or other) primary degree and then a one-year  (at any of the seven universities) is the usual route to secondary teaching.

For primary teaching, the entry qualification is a B.Ed degree from either , Mary Immaculate in Limerick, or one of the smaller Colleges of Education (Froebel, Marino). The only other option is the graduate route — do a degree first, then apply to the 18-month Grad. Dip in Primary Education available from the above-mentioned, or via the part-time online course available privately at Hibernia College (which personally I consider an inappropriate way to learn how to teach young children, and many in the 3rd level sector would tend to [broken link removed]). See this [broken link removed] for details of those graduate options and contact details for the various Colleges involved. The INTO website may also be useful.

Incidentally, as part of the B.Ed degree (points requirement of 455/460 last year, IIRC) she would also take one 'Arts' subject (e.g. Irish, French or English) to degree level and would be entitled to go on to postgrad study in that area if she got the required honours grades.

P.S. The B.Ed in Education and Psychology mentioned above by cole is an extremely popular CAO preference and, as places are limited to 25 each year, the points requirement is pretty high — 545 last year.


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## pansyflower

*Re: Advice on best way to become a Primary School Teacher ??*

http://www.education.ie/home/home.j...251&language=EN&link=link001&page=1&doc=29226
Check out the Dept of Education and Science.
Also St. Nicholas Montessori College.


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## nelly

*Re: Advice on best way to become a Primary School Teacher ??*

There are so many courses to choose from and jobs are not as available as they once were. And you do have the negatives along with the obvious positives for the job. Whoever you speak to has notions on the answer to your question and they differ widely so you need to ask why they would hold that notion - UCD don't have an B.Ed so would advise you choose a course that do have....
Thing is if teaching is what she wants a degree in education is the obvious choice - all the others demand an element of luck to get in to them, ok so does B.Ed in the form of the CAO points.  from hearing all manner of educated teachers (BEd, postgrad and Hibernia college) talking whatever choice she takes the interview for jobs relies heavily on the teaching practice grades - in other words how she gets on in the job. So i would advise her to get some experience in dealing with children - teaching . I flirted with the idea of doing the postgrad and  volunteered with young children which cured me I can tell you!!

there is a discussion forum for teachers www.educationposts.com/ where you can log on and ask this question. 

As the Mother all i would advise you to get her focused on getting into the degree (points sky high) and the honour in Irish if she does not achieve them then the other routes can come into effect. 

You should also be very proud that she is aiming to attain such a good leaving cert, i think nearly 500 points is what is required? Good luck to her!!


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## r2d2

Thank you all for your replies......Interesting and informative stuff ! I will sit down and discuss this further with her in more detail and we will examine the various links provided !

Once again, thanks !

r2d2 (and little d2)


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## qweqwerty123

Dr Moriarty

Very interested to hear why you think that Hibernia college's HDip in Primary education is 'an inappropriate way to learn how to teach young children'. It's amazing at this stage that there are still a few people out there with negative opinions about the course (and in my experience always ill-informed opinions too!)

Im sure the students of this college, who have paid a lot of money and invested a year and a half of their lives to pursue this very intensive (and much sought after!) course will be curious to know your reasons...

so please reply and support your opinions before you go discrediting it!


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## DrMoriarty

Welcome to AAM, qweqwerty123. You seem rather defensive about Hibernia College. Do you have any connection to it?

I have no axe to grind, nor any criticisms to offer of that private institution. I have nothing against distance learning _per se_, in fact I think it is likely to be a very significant component of higher education provision in the future, and I welcome that. As a professional educator of twenty-odd years' experience, and a father of five schoolgoing children, I simply feel that a part-time online diploma is not the best way to learn how to teach in a primary school classroom.

The IFUT statement I linked to provides what I would assume to be a fairly consensual statement regarding the misgivings of many academics regarding Hibernia's online course and the manner of its accreditation.

Presumably you can support your own (better informed) opinions in some other way than simply claiming that Hibernia students 'have paid a lot of money* and invested a year and a half of their lives' and that the course is 'very sought after'? Incidentally, I can assure you that it is far _less_ intensive than a full-time, three-year B.Ed. degree.

_* (Course Cost for Oct 07/ Feb 08 is €7,565.)_

From the Hibernia website:


> Q.  Can I hold down full-time employment alongside this course?
> A.  This is a part-time course so in theory you can be in full-time employment.
> However, on-site classes are held on Saturdays and all practical components of the course are taught during face-to-face classes. Students will be required to give a full-time commitment to this course to attend 2 on-site Physical Education programmes (for one week and one weekend - Sat & Sun) and a 3-week course in the Gaeltacht during the summer and to complete 14 weeks of Teaching Practice in 3 blocks of 4 weeks, 5 weeks and 5 weeks at times specified by the College.


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## qweqwerty123

I am defensive of your comments only, Dr moriarty

You wrote 'I simply feel that a part-time online diploma is not the best way to learn how to teach in a primary school classroom.' 
Yes it's called a part-time course but this is only because it's taught outside of regular college hours (i.e. online in the evenings, onsite at weekends and midterms, Easter and summer holidays, 4 months of teaching practice etc). These lesson times are not during school times and therefore give the students the opportunity to put their studies into practice in the classroom during the day. What better way to not only learn the theory of teaching but to put it into practice also! 

As regards whether Hibernia is 'less intensive than a full-time, three-year B.Ed. degree.'...
Im not going to argue the pros and cons of the other courses but as regards Hibernia, everyone has already successfully completed their primary degree and most are now teaching during the day as students while also completing the course outside of school. I think that's a pretty intensive amount of study anyway!

Yes I am a student of Hibernia and after completing a 4 year primary degree and another post grad course in an Irish university before it, I can honestly say I was never worked as hard or as efficiently in those courses as I am now.

Each to their own in their choice of study but please don’t knock other people's qualifications without seeing first-hand how Hibernia students are learning to become teachers... (because the 'its only part-time online' argument above doesn’t really stand). This is a very popular forum and I don’t like to see my qualifications being publicly struck down by people who clearly don’t have sufficient insight into the course (it seems you just have the college website and an article written in 2004 when the course was just starting out). I am literally being worked day (and night) to the bone by the college and as a result I don’t appreciate your potentially damaging remarks.


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## DrMoriarty

I haven't knocked/'struck down' anyone's qualifications, I've said nothing damaging and I am defensive only of the right to hold my own (purely personal) opinion. I neither seek nor care to impose it on anyone else. You asked me to reply and to back up my 'ill-informed' comments.  

Best of luck with your studies and in your career.


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## gebbel

*Re: Advice on best way to become a Primary School Teacher ??*



DrMoriarty said:


> For primary teaching, the entry qualification is a B.Ed degree from either , Mary Immaculate in Limerick, or one of the smaller Colleges of Education (Froebel, Marino). The only other option is the graduate route — do a degree first, then apply to the 18-month Grad. Dip in Primary Education available from the above-mentioned, or via the part-time online course available privately at Hibernia College (which personally I consider an inappropriate way to learn how to teach young children, and many in the 3rd level sector would tend to [broken link removed]).


 
I agree that there has been a lot of negative comments expressed in relation to the Hibernia method since it`s inception. I am, however, in a position to offer the following opinion: a friend completed Hibernia`s course successfully and is now a permanently employed primary school teacher. 2 years before, I shared a house with another friend who completed her B.Ed degree from Pat`s. Apart from the differing methods of learning, I don`t believe that the Hibernia method is inferior. I say this because they both had to take the same subjects, teaching practice, lesson plans, 3 weeks learning Irish in the Gaeltacht etc. My point is I believe the Hibernia course to be of a high standard, and just because it is delivered online, this should not be interpreted that it is "an inappropriate way to learn how to teach young children".
Such views (although privately held but in a very public internet forum) *could* lead to parents questioning the school principal about the qualifications of their kids` teachers and where they were obtained. This would only serve to undermine them. That is only my personal view.

Thanks


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## DrMoriarty

Let me clarify, once again.

(1) I haven't suggested that the 'Hibernia method' (=?) is 'inferior'. I do believe that, unlike many other areas of learning, initial teacher training is more _appropriately _delivered by traditional full-time participation, as part of a peer group, at lectures/tutorials/practicals. The OP asked about a 16-year-old Leaving Cert student, and my comment was addressed to that context. I would still recommend the B.Ed route to Ms d2 as the best way for her to become a primary school teacher, if that's what she wants to do.

(2) I certainly don't suggest that Hibernia graduates are less able or less competent teachers. Plenty of mediocre teachers graduate from B.Ed programmes every year. IMHO, the 'quality' of a teacher has far more to do with the individual's own talents and inclinations than with the precise nature of the formal training received, or the institution attended. And many practising teachers will tell you that they learned more in their first year of full-time teaching than they did in three years of Collidge (when they were 17/18/19 years old...?)

(3) As my last point suggests, direct comparisons are meaningless because, by definition, postgraduate entrants to H.Dip/Grad.Dip courses are more mature, generally more experienced, and, by and large, self-selected and therefore highly motivated. I find that mature students almost invariably outshine the average LC entrant academically (and in most other respects. If it were up to me, 'gap' years would be compulsory.) This is particularly true of Hibernia's students:


> 'In our first year of operation over 90 per cent of our applications came from unqualified teachers already working in the primary school system,' says Hibernia president Sean Rowland.


So please don't put words into my mouth ...or you'll be straight up to the moderators' office!  

For a different take on the Hibernia _vs._ Colleges of Education debate, see [broken link removed] on Gaelport.com (admittedly a little 'pro-Hibernia', in terms of the amount of space given to Seán Rowland's pronouncements?) and this thread on Boards.ie (admittedly moderated by a Hibernia-trained teacher).

My own concerns about Hibernia's course have more to do with the manner and timing of its approval, which I suspect had more to do with 'economics' and political expediency than any educational considerations. But that would be a criticism of the Minister's decision, not the staff and students at the College. It's simply too early to say whether, on average, students at Hibernia receive as good/full/thorough a training as their B.Ed counterparts (which, as I've pointed out, is _not _the same thing as 'are they as good teachers?'). Ask a school principal — or an experienced teacher — in ten years' time, when the initial cohorts of already-experienced, practising-but-unqualified teachers have passed through into the system. In the meantime, of course, their qualification is recognised by the DESS and INTO as equal in every way to the B.Ed and/or to the 18-month Grad.Dip offered by the Colleges of Education.

_[Oh, and to any schoolteachers out there — enjoy the rest of the holidays. That first week has really flown by, hasn't it..? ]_


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## lisalisa

Hi Everyone,

Ive been looking around trying to find some information on the best route into primary school teaching.
Iv completed a diploma in music two years ago to discover its not really for me.
Since then i have been thinking quite alot about doing primary schhol teaching as i work well with kids and am attracted to the jobs roles. I have been accepted to study in NUIGalway in this coming september. Im finding it quite difficult to decipher which sujects to study... well to be honest im unsure as to whether you have to have specific subjects to be considered to do the 18mnths add on course. I hopoe to do this course in London as it is quite difficult to get the course in Ireland. IIv narrowed my selection of subjects down to this Gaeilge(which il definately be doing) Psychology, Spanish, Economics, Celtic Civilisation or Information Technology.. I am aware that there isnt exactly a second primary curriculum subject in this selection and wonder if this will present me with problems? I would also appreciate any other advice people can give me as iv been out of secondary two years and am finding quite difficult to get a direct line of advice..

Thanks guys!!


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## DrMoriarty

If/when you go on to apply to a Grad.Dip course for primary teaching, I'd say the calibre of your primary (Arts) degree from NUIG will matter more than the subject combination. Entrants to these Grad.Dip courses are often from Business/Science/Technology/Legal etc. backgrounds, after all.

A good 2.1 (or 1st Class) honours award, concrete evidence of motivation/interest in teaching and — ideally — some practical _experience _will probably do more to improve your chances of acceptance than having chosen subjects which appear in name in the primary curriculum (but can mean something completely different in the context of a University Arts degree subject).

I'd suggest you choose subjects that you are interested in and will enjoy studying in depth for 3-4 years. Good luck!


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## DrMoriarty

Sorry to hear that. I personally find it a tad absurd, too, but as things stand in the world of teacher education fluent spoken Irish is something of a _sine qua non _(pardon my, eh, _[broken link removed]_) — and they won't even consider any candidate who fails that test. Proficiency in the language is compulsory for undergraduate entry too, and there's a further oral exam for the purposes of professional accreditation, even after you've 'qualified' academically.

Sure 'tis part of the goodness we're rich in... 

I didn't mention it simply because I assumed this wouldn't be a problem for lisalisa, who said she plans to study Irish to degree level.


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## janedoe06

regarding the online route to post primary

Hibernia College , my friend did that in Dublin and did'nt find any fault with it - she had got work experience in a primary school - with That once she found she liked primary teaching she applied to the do the teaching course with hibernia as i guess she found it flexible -

This was after her getting the teaching in Mary I ,but she did'nt want to move down to Limerick

She had no qualms about doing it , but it was'nt an easy course she still had a lot of work to do , and she used her school as a means of work experience as well .
she now has completed the course and secured a Permanent post at the primary school so with her she did\nt have any reservations to recommend it to anyone


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## DrMoriarty

I agree entirely.

I would add that anyone I know teaching _Gaeilge _at third level will maintain that a C3 in Honours Irish obtained at the most recent sitting of the Leaving Cert is absolutely no guarantee of fluency/proficiency. But that's another day's rant...


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## declan1

Hi 
I just graduated with a 2.2. degree in arts and am currently preparing for the interview in mary i. i was hopeing i could get some advice on what would be the best way to prepare i have a b1 in hon irish however ui need to brush up on it as i havnt done much since the leaving.  what are the chances of success for a 22 year old male graduate in the interview


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