# Builders bonds in relation to unfinished estates



## Bronte (9 Nov 2009)

Do builders bonds, the money they pay to the council/corporations not cover the finishing costs of an estate should the builder go bust?

Also do the local councils check that the estate is actually finished before releasing the bond?


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## mf1 (9 Nov 2009)

Bronte said:


> Do builders bonds, the money they pay to the council/corporations not cover the finishing costs of an estate should the builder go bust?
> 
> Also do the local councils check that the estate is actually finished before releasing the bond?



I think that issues can arise after bonds etc.,etc are lodged that, in retrospect, make the bonds inadequate . 

And, yes, councils do check that estates are finished before releasing the bond. 

My understanding ( open to correction) is that bonds would be released when the estate is taken in charge by the local authority.

mf


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## mathepac (9 Nov 2009)

This article in today's Irish Independent sheds some light on this issue - http://www.independent.ie/national-...-living-nightmare-for-homeowners-1937681.html


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## mf1 (9 Nov 2009)

mathepac said:


> This article in today's Irish Independent sheds some light on this issue - http://www.independent.ie/national-...-living-nightmare-for-homeowners-1937681.html



Ooops! 

Perhaps a good reason never to buy a new house. At least with a second hand house, in an established estate that is in charge, this cannot arise. 

mf


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## MOB (12 Nov 2009)

A poor effort from the Indo.  They could instead have referred the unfortunate houseowner in question to this site, where this question (as to what a house owner may do)  has been asked ( and answered) before.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=584715&postcount=6


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## Marion (12 Nov 2009)

My understanding of the situation is that the builder/developer informs the  council that the estate/development is in order to be taken over by the council. 

The residents have no imput into the decision-making process.

Marion


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## MOB (13 Nov 2009)

You are correct to the extent that this is what normally happens.  But since the 2000 Planning Act, houseowners have the right to insist upon an estate being taken in charge and a legal remedy if the local authority fails or refuses to do so.   

Houseowners in Ireland are slow at taking concerted action and communal decisions - but the development cited in the Indo was only eight houses; I am sure that they will be able to sort things out once they take proper advice instead of speaking to journalists.


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## One (17 Nov 2009)

Bronte said:


> Do builders bonds, the money they pay to the council/corporations not cover the finishing costs of an estate should the builder go bust?
> 
> Also do the local councils check that the estate is actually finished before releasing the bond?


 
You have asked two questions there. The answer to the first highlights a gap in Irish law and in determining the responsibility of who must finish housing estates if the builder becomes insolvent. Let me answer your question as best as I can. I believe that the reason the bond is paid is to ensure that there is enough money to complete the housing estate if the builder becomes insolvent. However, sometimes the bond is not large enough. It is hard for the local authority to estimate how much the bond needs to be, (or how much work could be potentially required) if the builder becomes insolvent. I'll say no more about that. I am guessing that in your scenario the bond is not enough, and you want to know what to do? I say that the best practical advice for you is that you (or your residents association) should meet with the local authority and co-operate with them. I have been through this situation and we have completed our estate and got it taken in charge. Things seemed distrastous at the start but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Good luck.

The answer to your second question is yes. The councils do check that the estate is finished before they release the bond.


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## indebtedgal (26 Nov 2009)

MOB said:


> You are correct to the extent that this is what normally happens. But since the 2000 Planning Act, houseowners have the right to insist upon an estate being taken in charge and a legal remedy if the local authority fails or refuses to do so.
> 
> Houseowners in Ireland are slow at taking concerted action and communal decisions - but the development cited in the Indo was only eight houses; I am sure that they will be able to sort things out once they take proper advice instead of speaking to journalists.


 
I am having an issue with my local authority at the moment.. Bear with me and hear me out. The lights in our estate are not working, I am led to believe at some point they did. There is serious anti social behaviour going on as its a hangout for louts due to poor lighting. Developer has gone to ground. Council have his bond in place, council telling me really they aren't obliged to do anything. So per the above mentioned plannig act of 200 can someone advise on how to approach the council again, eg put words in my mouth.


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## onq (26 Nov 2009)

indebtedgal said:


> I am having an issue with my local authority at the moment.. Bear with me and hear me out. The lights in our estate are not working, I am led to believe at some point they did. There is serious anti social behaviour going on as its a hangout for louts due to poor lighting. Developer has gone to ground. Council have his bond in place, council telling me really they aren't obliged to do anything. So per the above mentioned plannig act of 200 can someone advise on how to approach the council again, eg put words in my mouth.



Dear indebtedgal,

I don't think your first port of call should be the Council offices, certainly not as a lone householder. From the Council's point of view conditions on the ground have to change in your estate before work cancommences on getting the lights working again. There is safety and strength in numbers and responsible people in your estate must get together to effect change.

No Council is going to replace lights just to have some testosterone-ridden yuufs break them again as soon as they're in place. You need to form a residents association and put some time into working with the young people and Gardai to resolve this anti-social behaviour problem first, or in tendem with a Council presence on the ground in the estate repairing lights.

This is all about community action and community building, setting aside differences and finding common ground - not just "Lights". Young offenders must be targeted an taken out fo the equation by engagement, not simply shunted off for social workers to deal with. Early intervention is known to work.

Mind you, a couple of ASBOs for the ring leaders, making sure they replace all the lights they have broken might be an initial response but you need to put something else in place [FAS training, commnuity action, etc.] to arrive at a better way forward for the younger population as a whole. 

Residents associations can be ad hoc associations of people but you would be better advised to set yourselves up as a formal body is you want people in authority - Councils or Government - to take notice of you.

And yes, before you get upset with me and deny the situation you're living in - it really is your problem. If the estate is completed you have a case under law - see above and other posts - if you act as a body and garner a majority of the electorate in your estate to back you on this - but you must act. 

Councils aren't obliged to take in charge half-finished estates and if its incomplete - once again - you have to act to form a pressure group to force the Government to introduce legislation and set aside money to deal with unfinished estates.

Listening to Ryan Tubridy's show this morning it became apparent that there are may people in a similar situation to yours or worse and that in an ideal world engagement is the only short term solution, with whoever has the money or whoever has the responsibility beign brought to the table.

The problem is that no-one seems to have the money and everyone is ducking the responsibility. That's not good enough and it seems that some people are working up a head of steam to approach the government for a resolution to the current mess, including pursuing absent builders to pay for completions.

Therefore think local and set up your rsidents association first, then join with other assocaitions around the country to pressure the government to do somethign about this.

HTH

ONQ.


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## indebtedgal (26 Nov 2009)

Hi Onq,
I was in a huge rush earlier when typing so just in response to some of the things you said, we have a residents committee and we keep the place generally well kept and tidy. In the last few weeks asbos have been placed on 3 young lads and we seem to have been given some bit of a reprieve. But the fact remains that the public lighting is not working and the council is refusing to play ball with us (the residents committe) and developer is not an option. So what I can't understand is why even get a bond from developers if the councils won't use it. If anyone knows anymore about planning act of 2000 please come back to me if we have any remedy there..


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## onq (26 Nov 2009)

indebtedgal said:


> Hi Onq,
> I was in a huge rush earlier when typing so just in response to some of the things you said, we have a residents committee and we keep the place generally well kept and tidy. In the last few weeks asbos have been placed on 3 young lads and we seem to have been given some bit of a reprieve. But the fact remains that the public lighting is not working and the council is refusing to play ball with us (the residents committe) and developer is not an option. So what I can't understand is why even get a bond from developers if the councils won't use it. If anyone knows anymore about planning act of 2000 please come back to me if we have any remedy there..




Hi indebtedgal,

See MOB's posts aboveof 12-11-2009, 10:49 PM, and others.

Good to see you're on top of things, so to speak. You've done all you can.

Is the estate finished or not? If "no" you may have a difficulty. If "yes", pursue the Council.

ONQ.


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## indebtedgal (26 Nov 2009)

the estate is finished, but no one is officially maintaining it. We are happy to ge together as a group to do grass and clean up etc (even though its always the same ones doing it) but we can't do the lights... its very frustrating. I feel so sorry foe people who are in worse situations  with half finished estates..


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## onq (26 Nov 2009)

Read MOB's advise and you will see that apparently a majority of the residents can compel the Council to take it in charge.

Normally the Council drags its heels when a developer does it and sets the bar high so in some cases developers might feel that the Council don't want to release the Bond.

However with the estate mainly finished, and assuming you follow MOB's advice the Council will HAVE to act as there's no developer to hold the Bond over to get him to replace the lights.

I think you may need a solicitor overseeing or recording the vote to make things look "official" or you might prefer a Garda or whatever persons of standing you have in the estate who will do this for you pro bono.

The vote could take the form of a public meeting or a statement signed by everyone - I'm not sure if there's a formal way to do this specified in the act.

You then should present the results of the vote, citing the relevant passage in the act and request the Council to take the Estate in charge, use the Bond monies to repair any defects including the lights, and get on with your life.

You've had all the necessary advice, now take the vote and compel the Council, and the best of luck with it

HTH

ONQ.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2009)

Ok it seems clear that the bond will be used to finish an estate (lighting/paths/public areas) but if the estate itself is only half built (half finished houses, foundations etc) then the council will not take it in charge.  Is that correct ?  Then the people living in these estates have no rights?

One and others thanks for your replies.  I'm only interested in this from the point of view of ineptness of government and how we come to these situations that repeat themeselves every 20 years or so.


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## onq (27 Nov 2009)

Bronte that's what I understand.
In relation to other estates, the last four sentences of my post of at 01:03pm 26th November 2009 refer, summarised as:
This probably needs new legislation to sort it out and a nation wide movement by residents pressure groups seems to be one way forward.

ONQ.


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## Bronte (27 Nov 2009)

If what I have posted is correct then nobody should sign a contract to purchase a house in an unbuilt estate.  Seems pretty clear to me.


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## onq (27 Nov 2009)

Bronte said:


> If what I have posted is correct then nobody should sign a contract to purchase a house in an unbuilt estate.  Seems pretty clear to me.



Clear as mud unfortunately.

We've all 20/20 vision in hindsight, but what you're suggesting isn't going to happen.
People will buy at the right price, anywhere, and off the plans too - if its where they want to live.

Builder/developers OTOH will minimise exposure to the banks in any way possible
The most convenient way is to take deposits to fund builds and build-as-you-go when developing estates.
I don't think I can recall any estate in the last twenty years or so which was totally finished before a house was sold.

ONQ.


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## WestEndGirly (27 May 2010)

I am currently living in an estate with unfinsihed roads and other various problems. The company who built the estate has been disolved,
We managed to meet with a county councillor this evening. He stated that the council are owed money by the developer. That no bond was in place. And as it stands they will not be taking over roads, etc.
After leaving the meeting a few things a niggling at me. 
1) If no bond was in place should the council of allowed our houses to be built in the first place?
2) If the developer is now bust and the council unwilling to take over. Who at the moment is paying the ESB for the street lighting? Obviously nobody. Would the ESB cut them off?

The residents plan to meet again next week. We have agreed to contact our solicitors to check exactly what our purchase price included. If it states "x" amount for the completion of road etc, should we then approach the companies liqidators and stake our claim as creditors?

Any help with any of the above would be much appreciated.


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## onq (27 May 2010)

WestEndGirly said:


> I am currently living in an estate with unfinsihed roads and other various problems. The company who built the estate has been disolved,
> We managed to meet with a county councillor this evening. He stated that the council are owed money by the developer. That no bond was in place. And as it stands they will not be taking over roads, etc.
> After leaving the meeting a few things a niggling at me.
> 1) If no bond was in place should the council of allowed our houses to be built in the first place?
> ...



Cannot advise you as creditors, not my area of competence.
Re the bond, read the permission for the estate.
There could be more than one permission, so check.
The levies and bond should be noted as part of the conditions.
Talk to the Bond section in the Council and ask them to confirm whether any or all of those monies were paid.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon                           as a defence or support - in and of itself -      should       legal        action    be      taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in                           Real Life with rights to inspect and issue    reports    on     the         matters    at      hand.


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## babaduck (27 May 2010)

It would be most unusual for a Local Authority to issue planning for a development and not seek levies - they're usually scattered through the planning permission like little nuggets. Read each Condition in the Planning document and you should see them crop up. There should also be mention of a bond, the duration of same and the amount to be covered. In my experience working for a developer, we had to furnish proof of payment for all levies to purchasers solicitors pre-closing. I'd start with your solicitor who should (a) have a copy of the PP and (b) proof of payment of any levies which they would have sought as part of the process.

Also, if the establishment of a Management Company was part of the PP, then you cannot compel the Local Authority to take the development in change once it has been completed. I successfully got a South East LA to take over an estate where they forgot to insert this clause. It took me 18 months of screaming, shouting, threatening legal action and tormenting the County Manager and his team.


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