# Welfare and Tax fraud



## volda (13 May 2008)

How would one go about reporting a business owner who employs seven people 
only one of whom is *on the books*? I know this as my husband is (actually, was) the 
only one of the employees paying tax and PRSI. As for the welfare, there are 
two people working for cash whilst claiming unemployment -none of these 
facts need to be established, we know this information for sure.

Ok I need help and here is the deal -my husband has worked for 18 months as a restaurant manager, six days a week, 50hours per week, for €400.Crazy but there it is -this job or no job-we have rent to pay and a family to support.

He has not had one Public Holiday paid to him, has taken no annual leave nor
been paid for it, In actual fact his employer deducted a days wages for
Christmas day as the premises was closed.

He requested payslips continuously for months and months with no result until
he lost his temper and said I needed them to show the bank in order to get a
loan.He was given a handful, six weeks worth of slips and none since.

He was sacked on the spot two days ago without notice after an argument with
his employer about how quiet the business is.He has no contract of
employment, nothing on paper at all that stipulates how many days or hours he
works. Unfortunately he is not a trade union member, and we need information as
to how to resolve this situation urgently -we are in dire financial straits
now as the rent is due next week and we have no funds. He has 
gone to the Unemployment Offices first thing today, but if anyone can
advise on a course of action I would be very grateful.


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## Towger (13 May 2008)

Just drop into your local SW or Revenue office. I did this this with someone who was trying to claim maternity benefit. They were very interest when we produced P60s etc. which did not match with the P35 records on their computer system. The employer got audited about a year later. To be honest I don’t think that they got stuck for much, again half of the staff were not on the books (at all), as was a cash business....


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## volda (16 May 2008)

DIRE straits........
Our rent was due a week ago and we have not paid it as husband was sacked on the spot with no wages paid. He has been to Welfare to apply for unemployment but everything is held up because ex employer has not given him his P45 yet. Has got P60 for 2006 and 2004 but not 2005 which is needed as  employer did not have him on the *books* therefore he has no way of proving that he worked.
Husband has only just realised that this particular P60 is missing. Unfortunately with such a miserable wage we were already living hand to mouth so no savings to fall back on.
Is there anywhere one can go for emergency help ie dosh to pay rent? We are already majorly overdrawn at bank, and are already living on toast


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## ClubMan (16 May 2008)

*[broken link removed]?
*
               		                                      [broken link removed]


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## NicolaM (16 May 2008)

Have you tried your local community welfare officer?
[broken link removed] are some details
Best of luck
Nicola


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## volda (16 May 2008)

Thank you for the link but I was talking more about an emergency payment - everything is being held up at the moment because my husband has a missing P60.


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## volda (16 May 2008)

NicolaM said:


> Have you tried your local community welfare officer?
> [broken link removed] are some details
> Best of luck
> Nicola



I dont quite understand - does one just turn up and say that you can't pay the rent???


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## ClubMan (16 May 2008)

_CWO _is for emergency payments. Contact them and explain the situation. If you qualify for a payment they will tell you. If not then you have to sort it out some other way.


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## volda (16 May 2008)

I cannot find any information that tells me what qualifies one for a payment or not. The appliction for unemployment is being/cannot be processed at the moment due to other factors, and the rent is overdue,unfortunately the bank will not increase our overdraft facility and there is no-one we can ask for a loan


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## NicolaM (16 May 2008)

Hi Volda
Best thing to do, as ClubMan said, is to contact them, and explain your situation. They may be able to help.
Certainly in the country (West of Ireland) from my experience, the CWO has been able to help people out financially in cases of severe hardship (eg emergency money until benefits come in). (plus nothing to lose by asking)
Regards
Nicola


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## volda (16 May 2008)

Thank you very much I will look into it as soon as I can. Thanks again.


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## Black Sheep (16 May 2008)

If you are awaiting a decision on SW payment go to see your CWO (Community Welfare Officer at your local Health Centre) for an interim payment and help with rent. You will need to take with you a copy of your rent agreement and any other bills that are in urgent need of paying.

In other words he needs to see a complete picture of your most urgent needs and proof that you have applied for JB, in order to deal with your case

Good luck


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## volda (16 May 2008)

Well The relevant tax office has been informed of definite dodgy goings on at husbands ex place of employment BUT we have it on good authority that ex boss has very very quickly got in the company that does the computerised till system and had the whole hard drive replaced. This is because there was some sort of system wherby two reports could be generated at the end of the evening -actual takings and declared takings. My husband had two swipe cards and *forgot* to return them when he was sacked.One of which printed out two different versions of the days takings. So I don't know what will happen now.


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## eileen alana (16 May 2008)

volda said:


> Well The relevant tax office has been informed of definite dodgy goings on at husbands ex place of employment BUT we have it on good authority that ex boss has very very quickly got in the company that does the computerised till system and had the whole hard drive replaced. This is because there was some sort of system wherby two reports could be generated at the end of the evening -actual takings and declared takings. My husband had two swipe cards and *forgot* to return them when he was sacked.One of which printed out two different versions of the days takings. So I don't know what will happen now.


 

No doubt you will have to hand those swipe cards over to the relevant authorities, it sounds like a dreadful state of affairs.  I think there isn't enough labour inspectors to stop this sort of thing happening.  Your husband's pension contributions are also affected as his PRSI contributions haven't been paid.  I hope this employer doesn't seek some sort of  revenge on your husband. Look after yourselves and I hope it all works out ok for you.


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## volda (20 May 2008)

Well my husband went back to the SW today -Unemployment benefit cannot be paid as there are not enough contributions due to employer not registering him - The Unemployment Allowance, well, he was told by the girl there that it could take two or three MONTHS to process. I am just speechless.
He explained our financial situation -nothing they can do, it takes ages and thats it. The CWO was only available today for an hour (at the time hubby was at SW)

Ex employer may well have had a phone call or two from Revenue maybe as he rung my husband today to threaten him, and by the way the missing P60 (2006)will be available for him to collect TOMORROW. ????? This is the P60 needed for benefit to prove he worked and paid enough PRSI.


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## eileen alana (20 May 2008)

I thought ex employer would take a threatening stance alright, I hope he is not a chinese man with a bandishing machete!!  Now that the missing P60 has turned up you may have enought PRSI contributions to claim Job Seekers Benefit if not try and make an immediate appointment with the CWO who may be able to make exceptional needs payments while you are waiting for the Job Seekers Allowence application to be processed.  I think it rather strange that it may take months to process though!


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## ClubMan (20 May 2008)

eileen alana said:


> I hope he is not a chinese man with a bandishing machete!!


Huh!!?!


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## bacchus (21 May 2008)

volda said:


> How would one go about reporting a business owner who employs seven people only one of whom is *on the books*?


 
How come you only consider reporting the business now while you husband had been employed for 18months? Could it be he was happy to turn a blind eye while he was employed?
As the restaurant manager, does your husband not have some reponsability in knowingly working with undeclared staff?
Food for thought.


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## Welfarite (21 May 2008)

Let's get things in perspective here.....

There are fundementally two issues: Your hubby's SW claim and his ex-employer's avoidence of tax/PRSI.

1. SW will register a claim for JB and then send an inspector out to the employer to investigate why employer did not pay PRSI. The investigation will be based on a written statement by your husband laying out details of his employement. Whether or not the employer eventually pays the alleged missing PRSI will be irrelevant as SW will award hubby "credited contributions" for the period he was working, which are treated the smae as paid contributions for SW purposes. (in toher words, hubby will not lose out on any entitlements due top employer's remiss).

While awaiting result of investigation, SW will take a claim to JA from your husband. This involves a means test which can take a number of weeks/months depending on workloads (very busy at the moment in most offices due to huge increase in claims since Jan). The CWO (as another psoter mentioned) will pay a weekly payment in lieu pending the SW JA coming through. They will also deal with the Rent Supplement payment. It is imperative that your husband gets to the CWO ASAP in order to get this sorted. 

2. The employer's overall non-compliance with tax/PRSI will also be dealt with by SW, triggered by your husbands staement. Revenue may also join SW inspectors to carry out an audit of the business. Your hubby should not have to wait until this is completed to have his claim sorted. That will get priority.

Was all this not explained to him when he questioned things at the SW local office? Maybe he should ask for a supervisor on his next visit to explain where he stands?


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## volda (21 May 2008)

eileen alana said:


> I thought ex employer would take a threatening stance alright, I hope he is not a chinese man with a bandishing machete!!  Now that the missing P60 has turned up you may have enought PRSI contributions to claim Job Seekers Benefit if not try and make an immediate appointment with the CWO who may be able to make exceptional needs payments while you are waiting for the Job Seekers Allowence application to be processed.  I think it rather strange that it may take months to process though!



Er, actually he is an eastern european who has made threats to kill and maim, but that is another story. Missing P60 has yet to be collected, I dont know how one can be *got* in 24hours but there you are.JSAllowance will take at least two to three months -that is what we were told.


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## volda (21 May 2008)

bacchus said:


> How come you only consider reporting the business now while you husband had been employed for 18months? Could it be he was happy to turn a blind eye while he was employed?
> As the restaurant manager, does your husband not have some reponsability in knowingly working with undeclared staff?
> Food for thought.



Well actually my husband did inform the three employees that actually can string two word of english together that their P45s were still in the safe and most likely would stay there for ever. The remaining employees are family members of employer. I'm not sure that he would have risked losing his job crappy as it was(which are very hard to come by these days) in order to get other peoples tax affairs right.


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## volda (21 May 2008)

Welfarite said:


> Let's get things in perspective here.....
> 
> There are fundementally two issues: Your hubby's SW claim and his ex-employer's avoidence of tax/PRSI.
> 
> 1. SW will register a claim for JB and then send an inspector out to the employer to investigate why employer did not pay PRSI. The investigation will be based on a written statement by your husband laying out details of his employement. Whether or not the employer eventually pays the alleged missing PRSI will be irrelevant as SW will award hubby "credited contributions" for the period he was working, which are treated the smae as paid contributions for SW purposes. (in toher words, hubby will not lose out on any entitlements due top employer's remiss).While awaiting result of investigation, SW will take a claim to JA from your husband. This involves a means test which can take a number of weeks/months depending on workloads (very busy at the moment in most offices due to huge increase in claims since Jan). The CWO (as another psoter mentioned) will pay a weekly payment in lieu pending the SW JA coming through. They will also deal with the Rent Supplement payment. It is imperative that your husband gets to the CWO ASAP in order to get this sorted.



That is the problem -PRSI was paid but only from the beginning of 2007 when in actual fact husband was working from Sep 2006, those 16 weeks that employer did not declare him as working apparently make the difference as to whether he will get benefit or allowance -allowance will take 3 months to process, that is what he was told. He cannot prove that to welfare people via 2006 P60 as he did not receive one.


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## ClubMan (22 May 2008)

volda said:


> Er, actually he is an eastern european who has made threats to kill and maim, but that is another story.


Yeah - one the _Gardaí _if you are saying that this has actually happened! 


volda said:


> the three employees that actually can string two word of english together


What is the relevance of this remark?!


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## volda (22 May 2008)

Clubman -I have to say I don't appreciate your tone. Husband was threatened,the gardai have been informed and a report has been made. I'm not making this all up you know.

The relevance of my remark is in response to a query as to whether my husband is partly responsible for his situation by knowingly working with undeclared staff - only three employees(except himself) speak the tiniest amount of english, none of the others speak a word. The three that do *can hardly compose a sentence* 
He tried to explain via one of their  boyfriends who speaks a modicum of english that they most likely were not *on the books*
 Duty done.


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## volda (22 May 2008)

Many thanks to those of you who have been helpful -situation is not resolved but all advice greatly appreciated


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## ClubMan (23 May 2008)

volda said:


> Clubman -I have to say I don't appreciate your tone.


Huh!!??!


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## bacchus (23 May 2008)

volda said:


> The relevance of my remark is in response to a query as to whether my husband is partly responsible for his situation by knowingly working with undeclared staff - only three employees(except himself) speak the tiniest amount of english, none of the others speak a word. The three that do *can hardly compose a sentence*


 
That's fair enough. I think Clubman, and certainly other AAM readers incl myself, picked up on the way you wrote it which does not read well and may seem offensive towards non-irish native.



			
				volda said:
			
		

> _the three employees that actually can string two word of english together_


 
We now have to live in a world of political correctness.


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## volda (23 May 2008)

bacchus said:


> That's fair enough. I think Clubman, and certainly other AAM readers incl myself, picked up on the way you wrote it which does not read well and may seem offensive towards non-irish native.
> 
> 
> 
> We now have to live in a world of political correctness.



Well in actual fact my husband is a *non-irish* person, he is Italian, I am not Irish -something I did not establish in my first post, as it is totally irrelevant.But I do think it is relevant to point out that hos co-workers do not speak english,certainly not enough to converse with anyone when any responsibility he may have had is called into question.


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## Bronte (23 May 2008)

Volda I do not think your husband should collect the P60 on his own.  If such threats you have said have been made I would call to the Gardai to tell them where I was going beforehand and forewarn the boss of this.


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## volda (23 May 2008)

Actually the P60 is not forthcoming. Ex boss is doing utmost to make things difficult. 
I am at a loss as to understand how an employer can suddenly*remember* that he had someone working for 3 or 4 months before they were officially declared as working -TWO years later. This is what would have to happen I suppose in order to supply this miising document.


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