# Bank or Solicitor lost my deeds



## sunny505 (17 Nov 2009)

It appears that the bank has lost the title deeds to my now deceased parents' property. The solicitor says that he has a letter *referring* to a receipt my parents got from the bank when they initially lodged them. The bank say they were released ten years later to the solicitor - but there is no record of this on behalf of the bank or the solicitor. At the moment we are getting no satisfaction from either the bank or the solicitor. There will be costs incurred to reconstitute the title and in the event of taking out a mortgage, a bond will have to be paid every year should the bank decide a bond is necessary. I feel completely justified in not paying any fees in this regard and I am so frustrated by the whole thing. Does anyone have any experience of same and could offer some advice. Thanks in advance.


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## Vanilla (17 Nov 2009)

So to summarise, the solicitor has proof that the deeds were lodged with the bank. The bank are saying they released them to the solicitor but they have no proof.

Solicitor should present bill to bank for rectification of title and pursue it vigorously. You should also. For eg if you have a local branch manager- get in contact with them and pursue this. Keep the one line- bank have no proof, solicitor has proof, bank must pay.

This is quite common and in my experience bank will pay.

Ps if this is registry of deeds I'd be looking for costs for a first registration- not a bond as this is not liked by many solicitors- the preferable is first registration.


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## sunny505 (17 Nov 2009)

Thanks Vanilla, Could you explain what first registration is - essentially is it like you are the first owner of the property and are registering it for the first time? The solicitor mentioned taking out a bond and that banks would require same for a mortgage to protect them should someone find the deed and claim ownership if they thought, given there's no deed, my parents never owned it.


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## Vanilla (17 Nov 2009)

There are two types of title in Ireland. The first is Land Registry title, this is a type of title which registers the ownership of land in a central registry called the Property Registration Authority of Ireland. This is a government guaranteed title. All titles have maps attached, one can apply at any time to the PRAI for a copy of your title. Up to about 2 years ago original title documents called 'Land Certificates' were issued for this type of title. The PRAI stopped issuing them 2 years ago and at the end of this year they will be abolished. So I doubt your title is land registry as a missing land certificate stops being a problem in a few weeks time when they cease to have any legal meaning.

The other type of title is 'Registry of Deeds' title. This is a system of registering 'deeds'- the documents whereby title is transferred or mortgaged. It's not guaranteed. It is a perfectly good title until the original deeds are lost- it can be reconstituted but there is a cost involved and it's always seen as slightly imperfect.

Over 90% of the land mass of Ireland is land registry, and the government are gradually introducing compulsory registration across the country- forcing all registry of deeds title to be registered in the land registry. This is an application for 'First Registration'. It is costly and not quick. However once done the title is then state guaranteed title and perfected.

The reason I would suggest you look for costs to do a First Registration is that you may have to do this at some point anyway, depending on which County you are in ( some counties already have compulsory registration, some are having it introduced in December, more to come later).


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## jack2009 (17 Nov 2009)

Can I ask, who should have had the deeds during this time?  Whoever should have had them should be made responsible for not keeping them safe or ensuring that they were returned etc.?


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## sunny505 (19 Nov 2009)

Thanks for that Vanilla - will check that with solicitor. Just sent a mail to the financial ombudsman to see what they suggest. 

Jack, the bank had them as they were needed for security for a purchase my brother made. Then ten years later the bank (now) say they sent them to the solicitor and the solicitor says he never got them - you see the problem? There was no mortgage on the property but I'm even thinking if I paid off my own mortgage tomorrow, I wouldn't take the deeds and stick them somewhere in my house - I'd give them to my solicitor probably moreso than the bank. So I suppose my parents had absolutely no reason to ask for them or wonder where they were. You just assume they are safe. It was a long time ago too when people were more trusting of banks.

This must be common enough though?


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## Trustmeh (19 Nov 2009)

I trusted my solicitor - he was supposed to send the deeds to the bank. Bank says they never got them. Apparently He was dodgy dealing and is now no longer a licensed solicitor. So where are my deeds? I would much prefer to trust an institution than a single person.


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## sunny505 (19 Nov 2009)

Yankinlk, so what did you do about it?


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## Trustmeh (19 Nov 2009)

Law Society first - they were not very helpful. Eventually they washed their hands of it and said go find a new solicitor. Im a little shocked that it could happen tbh. If it wasnt for the bank contacting me to say the deeds were missing I would never have known in the first place.

Im still dealing with it - so i dont know what the final outcome is going to be - but i can guess its gonna cost me money.


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## Ireland.1 (20 Nov 2009)

This thread brings back memories.  We had the same problem some time back either the executer, solicitor or bank mislaid deeds to a property that was partly left to us in a will.

To say it was bedlam is an understatement.  It didn't cost us much money but it did take up to three years and more to regain title.  The property had been valued at half a million euro but by the time we got to sell it was valued at not more than 290K.


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## Ireland.1 (20 Nov 2009)

Vanilla said:


> The other type of title is 'Registry of Deeds' title. This is a system of registering 'deeds'- the documents whereby title is transferred or mortgaged. It's not guaranteed. It is a perfectly good title until the original deeds are lost- it can be reconstituted but there is a cost involved and it's always seen as slightly imperfect.
> 
> Over 90% of the land mass of Ireland is land registry, and the government are gradually introducing compulsory registration across the country- forcing all registry of deeds title to be registered in the land registry. This is an application for 'First Registration'. It is costly and not quick.



Vanilla, in our case it took three years.  Is this normal?


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## Vanilla (20 Nov 2009)

Ireland.1 said:


> Vanilla, in our case it took three years. Is this normal?


 
There are two types of application for First registration- either based on prior title ( reconstructed registry of deeds title) which can be very quick, or based on long possession- which can be very slow.

The fastest I ever did one was in one week- based on title.

The longest I've seen would be five or six years. But much depends on different factors. Those would be the waiting list in the land registry, how good the initial application is, whether any other potential interested parties sign consents, how quickly you reply to requisitions from the land registry and so on.


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## sunny505 (24 Nov 2009)

Vanilla, 
Thanks for your replies on this. I am just wondering how long it might take us. The solicitor helpfully stated that it will take 'some time' despite being asked for a timeframe. I didn't think in terms of years!! Is the memorial helpful in expediting matters? This property would have been in my father's name for just over thirty years and there would be no other parties claiming or contesting ownership. I am not sure if prior title or long possession would relate to the property. What would need to be in place for prior title?


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## Vanilla (24 Nov 2009)

From what you say I imagine yours would be based on title- you would be lodging memorialised indentures of prior deeds that could be obtained from the registry of deeds. I would say realistically that such an application from date of lodgement ( assuming all relevant docs were lodged with the application) could take up to 6 months to a year.


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## Ireland.1 (24 Nov 2009)

Sunny, also make sure you have a good solicitor.  The person we had caused nothing but distress to an already stressful situation and the whole scenario got a bit messy to say the least.


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## sunny505 (24 Nov 2009)

Thanks guys.


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## Shona (1 Dec 2009)

Hi there, my father received his own deeds from the bank, but not only his own, but those of somebody else's that were mistakenly in the envelope. He returned them to the bank but there you go.... mistakes do happen.  I hope that you get sorted out because that's very unfair on you.


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