# "Sold as Seen" car. Have I been done?



## AndyDub (2 Jun 2009)

I've read some similar threads here with varying experiences.
Basically I bought a car sold as seen in April, I had it checked out by a mechanic, got the all clear on the car. Car cost 4k.
Two weeks later, driving the m50, the water pump disintegrates and takes off the timing belt. Repairs cost 1200 as the engine was wrecked. Is there anything I can do to have the dealer pay for repairs. I still have a copy of the ad, it describes the car as being in perfect condition. It turns out that when the Timing belt was changed last Nov, the water pump wasn't.


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## Aidan23gd (2 Jun 2009)

He didn't mention sold as seen for no reason. People use that phrase basically to say: It's falling apart and if you buy it I an not liable, thanks. People wouldn't mention that unless they have a reason such as multiple problems as 1) It'll put a lot of people off 2) it'll lower the sale value. Really I don't think that the Dealer is liable as he said 'Sold as Seen'. Do the consumer rights such as good must be of merchantable quality and fit for purpose (to be driven) apply here? Or does the Sold as Seen cancel them out? Perhaps your mechanic is liable for missing these problems. Was the mechanic in some way associated with the dealer - he could have just ignored faults if he was.


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## AndyDub (2 Jun 2009)

The thing is I've thought all along there was nothing I can do about it. But I had a conversation with a different Car Dealer over the weekend and he told me 'Sold as seen' and no warranty applies/sale of goods act voided etc doesn't matter ( all this stuff is written on the invoice ) he told me the car has to be fit for what it was intended.


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## so-crates (2 Jun 2009)

If it wasn't roadworthy you may have a leg to stand on. Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 from my vague memories of school bus. org. states that the goods must be fit for the purpose intended. If it wasn't fit for driving at the point where you bought it then it would seem to be covered under that (the definition of that though ...). Whether or not they knew about it is not at issue, it is their responsibility. I don't think "sold as seen" exempts them from that provision unless the dealer specifically told you that it could not be driven unless x was fixed.


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## NorfBank (2 Jun 2009)

from the National Consumer Agency

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/Print-versions-of-guides/NCA-shopping-guide.html


If the goods are “sold-as-seen” you need to be extra careful and, in certain cases (such as cars or antique furniture) you may need to get an expert opinion.
If the item turns out to be faulty, you have the right to return it to the shop and seek a replacement, a repair or a refund.


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## mathepac (2 Jun 2009)

AndyDub said:


> ... It turns out that when the Timing belt was changed last Nov, the water pump wasn't.


How did you find that out, was there an invoice that detailed the work?

Some manufacturers now use cheap plastic-impeller water-pumps which have the same life-span as timing-belts and need changing at the same time (some companies produce kits with all the parts needed - timing belt, auxiliary belts, water-pump, gaskets, etc.)

Your mechanic or the dealer should have advised you.


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## AndyDub (2 Jun 2009)

The guy who's repairing the car has told me the pump was not changed, so I'm going on his advice there. My neigbour ( another car dealer) has said if he gets a solicitors letter he just pays no issue rather than go to the small claims court, I might try that route!


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## Smashbox (2 Jun 2009)

Wasn't there something that you have to prove the damage was there before you bought it, as opposed to it happening in the time you had it ie. two weeks?


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## mathepac (2 Jun 2009)

Based on the mechanic's statement to OP, it was a pre-existing defect .i.e. the water-pump had exceeded its service life, the mechanical equivalent of a bald tyre in the engine.

The useful lives of these components are usually measured in miles / kilometers driven or age of the vehicle and they are due to be changed at the mile-stone that occurs first e.g. 80, 000 kms or 4 years old


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## AndyDub (2 Jun 2009)

As its a Renault Sceninc, I knew about their timing belt issues and made sure it had been changed, so I was satisfied at that point to buy it. My question at this point is can I make the dealer pay for the repairs. I did expect to get more than two weeks out of a car that was advertised as being in "superb condition".


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## LS400 (2 Jun 2009)

Sold as seen in any language implies, you are taking a risk with this purchase and the price reflects this. How can the dealer be responsible   when he advertised this fact..What you are looking for is, is to have the best of both worlds. I do feel for you, but theres always a gamble with this type of sale, and No, Im not a dealer..


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## mathepac (2 Jun 2009)

LS400 said:


> ... How can the dealer be responsible   when he advertised this fact....


Because the law says so.

This is copied from from the National Consumer Agency web-site listed above :

"Faults - repair, replacement, refund...
If you have a genuine complaint about faulty goods, you can ignore shop notices such as "No Refunds" or "No Exchanges".
Some shops display these notices during the sales. But remember that *these kinds of notices cannot take away any of your statutory rights under the Sale of Goods Act*... "

Despite any notices or notifications goods must be fit for purpose and of merchantable quality. No notice by a trader can remove a consumer's statutory rights.


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## Brendan Burgess (2 Jun 2009)

There is a huge difference between "sold as seen" and "no refunds".

I hope that the law does not stop a car dealer from selling a faulty car. I would have thought that "sold as seen" really says "This car is only suitable for a dealer or for someone who wants a fixer-upper".

Brendan


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## mathepac (2 Jun 2009)

Brendan said:


> There is a huge difference between "sold as seen" and "no refunds"...


I would argue that both are attempts to circumvent the consumer protections enacted in the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act and  to attempt to place the consumer in the same position as if he or she had purchased goods at an auction.


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## Aidan23gd (2 Jun 2009)

Brendan said:


> There is a huge difference between "sold as seen" and "no refunds".
> 
> I hope that the law does not stop a car dealer from selling a faulty car. I would have thought that "sold as seen" really says "This car is only suitable for a dealer or for someone who wants a fixer-upper".
> 
> Brendan



Totally agree. You have to be able to sell faulty things somewhere. If you buy something basically advertised as faulty and it breaks due to its faults then you are just getting what you paid for. Not that I do not sympathise with the buyer, I do, but it was sold with no warranty and sold-as-seen then I don't see where you can argue. If the car was perfect and faultless then it wouldn't be sold-as-seen and would have been a great deal more expensive.
The dealer can assume that the buyer will rectify the faults themselves, I seriously doubt that they are liable. The sale of goods/services act also states that you are entitled to receive the good that you pay for (as described) and as far as I can tell, it was as described. . .


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## Diziet (2 Jun 2009)

I always thought that 'sold as seen' was something for private transactions, and I am surprised at a dealer advertising in this way. If I were to sell my car privately, I would be very likely to say 'sold as seen' and invite the buyer to make their own checks as I am not a car expert of mechanic (although I would certainly mention problems I knew about). This would be to make sure there was no implied guarantee on my part. 

But a car dealer is an 'expert'. What is the point of buying from a dealer in this case?


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## jhegarty (2 Jun 2009)

"Sold as seen" means the car needs works/is about to fall apart.

If some of the posts above are correct I can buy a car that is marked for scrap , then make the dealer fix it for me.


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## AndyDub (2 Jun 2009)

Trust me, I can see the point of view of the seller, and I had been resigned to taking a hit for the money, but now I've had another dealer tell me the contract I've signed doesn't mean anything and that above all I still have the right to receive the goods in working order for the use they were intended.


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## mathepac (2 Jun 2009)

Aidan23gd said:


> Totally agree. You have to be able to sell faulty things somewhere...


I agree and such outlets do exist for car dealers, either 


Sale to another motor-trader or
Sale at a car-auction where the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act does not apply - goods are sold "as seen"
Trying to circumvent a consumer's rights is not the way to shift unwanted cars.

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/Guides-to-Consumer-Law/Buying-a-car/


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## AndyDub (2 Jun 2009)

Brendan said:


> There is a huge difference between "sold as seen" and "no refunds".
> 
> I hope that the law does not stop a car dealer from selling a faulty car. I would have thought that "sold as seen" really says "This car is only suitable for a dealer or for someone who wants a fixer-upper".
> 
> Brendan


Thats really an interpretation and not at all how the car is described in the original advertistment. I wanted a family car, and I bought one which is described as such and described to be in perfect working order, its not what I ended up with.


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## LS400 (2 Jun 2009)

Again, AndyDub,
The warning bells went off as soon as this was described Sold as Seen. Your mechanic in all fairness also would not have known this would happen, the reason Sold an Seen would apply is there has to be a high risk problems will surface. Again this has to be reflected in the price. What is not known, is what was the difference in the retail price and Your price?? and  will it compensate the repairs.  Hope it does.


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## Aidan23gd (2 Jun 2009)

AndyDub said:


> Thats really an interpretation and not at all how the car is described in the original advertistment. I wanted a family car, and I bought one which is described as such and described to be in perfect working order, its not what I ended up with.


If it was described as perfect WORKING order then you should have a case. If it was perfect CONDITION I think I'd understand that as being visibly perfect ie. paintwork, seats, etc. 
What is the asthetic/visible condition of the car?


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## Aidan23gd (2 Jun 2009)

AndyDub said:


> Thats really an interpretation and not at all how the car is described in the original advertistment. I wanted a family car, and I bought one which is described as such and described to be in perfect working order, its not what I ended up with.


If it was described as perfect WORKING order then you should have a case. If it was perfect CONDITION I think I'd understand that as being visibly perfect ie. paintwork, seats, etc. 
What is the asthetic/visible condition of the car?


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## levelpar (5 Jun 2009)

> "Faults - repair, replacement, refund...
> If you have a genuine complaint about faulty goods, you can ignore shop notices such as "No Refunds" or "No Exchanges".
> Some shops display these notices during the sales. But remember that *these kinds of notices cannot take away any of your statutory rights under the Sale of Goods Act*... "


 
As the above refers to goods sold by shops (or the like) ,the reference is to new goods which may have faults and not to secondhand goods .


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## mathepac (5 Jun 2009)

levelpar said:


> As the above refers to goods sold by shops (or the like) ,the reference is to new goods which may have faults and not to secondhand goods .


Incorrect - the situation described by OP is within the scope of the 1980 act. Reference  - [broken link removed]


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## levelpar (5 Jun 2009)

> Incorrect - the situation described by OP is within the scope of the 1980 act. Reference


 
I stand corrected, Mathepac,  . As a lot of dealers only guarantee for 6 months, does this mean that the Act does not apply after 6 months ?



> if you find a fault with the car after you have bought it the dealer is the person who must set matters right


 
The above Act does not state a time limit..


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## AndyDub (8 Jun 2009)

mathepac said:


> Incorrect - the situation described by OP is within the scope of the 1980 act. Reference  - [broken link removed]



Thank you very much for that link. I've just had a chat with somebody on their helpline and it seems I do have a case, basically no matter what I've signed I can't sign away my statutory rights.


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## mathepac (8 Jun 2009)

AndyDub said:


> Thank you very much for that link. ...


You're welcome and its good to hear there may be a case for the dealer to answer. Best of luck with it.


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## sparkeee (8 Jun 2009)

you bought as seen,you got it checked out and were happy with the transaction.your stuck with it now.


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## mathepac (8 Jun 2009)

sparkeee said:


> you bought as seen,...your stuck with it now.


Not true, read the thread.


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## samanthajane (8 Jun 2009)

I do think that it's very unfair your paid 4k for a car and only got 2 weeks out of it. 

But..... i dont think the garage sold the car knowing this was going to happen. You even had someone look at the car for you, so he thought everything was ok. 

The time that you purchased the car it was in working order, it was only 2 weeks later that something went wrong.  Didn't the garage give any sort of guarantee? 

You said you got someone else to fix the car for you, why not the garage you got it from? I would of though they would at least given you a good discount on the work...obviously not. 

Name and shame them, especially in these times not many people buying cars at the moment, the last thing they need is bad worth of mouth. 

I hope you do manage to get a good outcome from this.


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