# Got my Ulster Bank tracker back



## Jamespt (13 Sep 2016)

Ulster bank have confirmed to me by phone that they will reinstate my tracker. I fixed in 07 for 2 years. I believe I am one of the first since the CB enforcement action. They had to prioritise my case for various reasons.


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## UDurcan (14 Sep 2016)

Had you been fighting your case with them since the end of your fixed rate?

Congrats on your good news also.


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## mister32 (14 Sep 2016)

What reasons?
Repossession?


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## SaySomething (14 Sep 2016)

If you were able to give us some vague idea of the reasons that would be really helpful. There are quite a few of us waiting and this information is great to hear though. Congratulations Jamespt!


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## Jamespt (14 Sep 2016)

Not a repossession just selling an asset. Only realised I had a case 6 months ago so looks promising for everyone else


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## UDurcan (14 Sep 2016)

Was the banks decision to give it back to you based on the wording in your original mortgage contract or the wording of the fixed rate form that you signed in 2007?


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## MorgVar (14 Sep 2016)

T





Jamespt said:


> Not a repossession just selling an asset. Only realised I had a case 6 months ago so looks promising for everyone else


This is hugely significant for all of us waiting.

Could you give a little more background please eg Did you have FSO appeal, how did you present your case to UB etc


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## Jamespt (14 Sep 2016)

I realised last March having read my mortgage contract that I might have a case. The wording in my contract was standard. I sent 2 complaint letters to UB. I had passed the 6 year period and assumed I was too late to make a claim to the FSO. I wrote to my local TD and had a go as 6 years should start when you become aware that you have been wronged.he told me to submit a case to the FSO, I did and they accepted it. I then decided to wait until the outcome of the CB action. I have 2 assets linked to the mortgage and received an offer from someone to buy one of them and decided to accept the offer. That experience has been a nightmare so I sent another complaint letter that think hit a nerve. They prioritised my review as I could sue them if the tracker was reinstated after the asset sale. I've had verbal confirmation by 2 people in UB and expect a letter this week. The calculations around back payments will take a couple of months.


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## Gerard123 (14 Sep 2016)

When you say wording in my contract was standard what do you mean by standard?  One of the issues with the tracker issue is that there are numerous wordings used.

Did you original contract specify a tracker or what was the rate per the original contract?

When you fixed in 2007 did the letter you signed include tracker as an option at the end? What was the wording in that letter please? 

Thanks for the information as it does help to inform.


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## Jamespt (14 Sep 2016)

My mortgage contract stated that I would have tracker of 0.85 above ecb for the full term of the loan. I don't have a copy of the doc I signed but I'm sure I just sent a letter to them in 2007 to fix for 2 years. The document I signed after the 2 years fixed period did not offer a tracker just variable. I asked for a copy of these but UB ignored my request.


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## UDurcan (14 Sep 2016)

It seems to me that they gave this back to you very easily in comparison to the fight that other customers have to go through....does this then bode well for the rest of us?

It seems to me that if ever you had a tracker then fixed for a period then you should just have gone back on your tracker for the life of the loan as it says in the original contract...doesnt make sense to me that some get it back and others dont.


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## Jamespt (14 Sep 2016)

Yes I'd agree. I was very cynical about UB but now believe they have been found out and have no choice. They did say that the back payment calc will have to be approved by the CB. That's why it will take so long. It also sounds like they have to go through a very rigorous process when reviewing each case and that is being observed by independent consultants. They didn't mention compensation but this will also have to be up for discussion.


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## Sarenco (15 Sep 2016)

Congratulations on your good news.

However, if you don't know what the document you signed in 2007 said would happen on expiry of the 2 year fixed-rate period it's very difficult to draw any broader conclusion from your story.

That's really the key issue.  Whatever was in your original contract or in whatever document you signed after the fixed-rate term is not really relevant.


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## UDurcan (15 Sep 2016)

Could we not draw the conclusion that the fixed rate document that would have been signed in 2007 would have had a standard wording that would have been the same for every customer that had a tracker??


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## Sarenco (15 Sep 2016)

UDurcan said:


> Could we not draw the conclusion that the fixed rate document that would have been signed in 2007 would have had a standard wording that would have been the same for every customer that had a tracker??



Well, was there a standard wording at that time and, if so, what did it say?  Without knowing the relevant facts we're really only guessing.


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## SaySomething (15 Sep 2016)

I have a copy of my fixed rate expiry notice which might help. It is a standard letter which was issued in 2010. The first paragraph reads:

_"The fixed rate period on your mortgage is coming to an end on *DATE*, so it's time to start thinking about your next mortgage deal. Any borrowings you have on this fixed rate will now automatically roll to the *Standard Variable Rate (APR X%) of X%.*

You might choose a new variable rate or alternatively you could select a new fixed rate. With a fixed rate you will continue to have the security of knowing what your monthly repayments will be. The following are the range of options that are currently available for you to choose from:"_​
Underneath is a table which includes a number of fixed rate and variable rate options. Tracker is not included within the rate options.

At the bottom of the letter there are 2 further relevant paragraphs.

_"If you choose one of the interest rate options above, other than your Default option, please complete the enclosed Letter of Authority and return it to us within 10 days of the date of this letter. We will then move your existing Mortgage to the option chosen.

*Please note that if you opt for a further fixed rate and y our current default interest rate option is a tracker rate, at the end of this new fixed rate period the tracker interest rate option will no longer be available, and your mortgage will default to a standard variable rate.*"_​
Any text in bold above is in bold on the letter.

Also worth noting that according to my diary at the time, when I read the final paragraph in bold I contacted the bank and requested my tracker rate back. They informed me that it was not on offer, so I couldn't have it and the only rates I could move to were clearly set out in the letter I received. At this point I had fixed my mortgage rate once only.


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## peteb (15 Sep 2016)

okay  Say Something.  So they then stuck you onto a variable rate after that fixed period? Then depending on what the wording was in your original mortgage contract you should be going back to a tracker from the end of that period.

This was the constant problem I had with UB when they were corresponding with the FSO.  UB constantly kept referring back to the fact that tracker products were no longer available, missing the point that i was contractually entitled to it as opposed to me asking for it.


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## SaySomething (15 Sep 2016)

peteb said:


> okay  Say Something.  So they then stuck you onto a variable rate after that fixed period? Then depending on what the wording was in your original mortgage contract you should be going back to a tracker from the end of that period.
> 
> This was the constant problem I had with UB when they were corresponding with the FSO.  UB constantly kept referring back to the fact that tracker products were no longer available, missing the point that i was contractually entitled to it as opposed to me asking for it.



Yes I'm well aware of that - am just responding to the person who was asking what the standard documentation looked like at the time. I'm still awaiting the outcome of the central bank review myself.


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## Gerard123 (15 Sep 2016)

The whole complexity and problems centre on the fact that there were not standard letters.  There were a whole a variety of different letters at any point in time. In addition letters changed over time.  What people were told by Bank staff differed.  Though the Banks might well now seek with hindsight to portray letters as standard, and use terminology now that was not applied at the time, and sought to justify the denial of trackers on that basis.

The previous post sets out a 2010 letter in one case.  Letters in 2006, 2007 were fundamentally different.  It also differed between Ulster Bank and First Active pre and post the integration of First Active into Ulster Bank.  As I understand the specific investigation by the CB into Ulster Bank announced earlier this year centred specifically on those First Active customers who were integrated into Ulster Bank.  The letters that FA customers signed were different to UB letters, yet UB sought to portray and use them as if they were UB letters and sough to apply the UB process and deny trackers.  This is in addition to the wider tracker review that the CB has requested Banks to perform.

In particular the para quoted in bold in the previous post was NOT included in letters provided by First Active in earlier years.  In fact the very opposite, the letters provided that one of the options was a tracker, albeit it used the term prevailing (at times).  That word has caused confusion and is open to different interpretations vis a vis what time it is referring to, what happens when the bank no longer provided trackers to the general market, etc.

The para in bold in the earlier post to me seems clear and if someone signed up to that I see it as hard to argue otherwise, unless there is other material or contradictory information.  It clearly states that the tracker will no longer be available.  Fact is many many letters said nothing of the sort.   

The bank also interchanged the terms standard variable rate and variable rate when in fact they do not mean the same thing.  SVR is one form of variable rate, as a tracker rate is a variable rate.  UB sought to argue that the term variable rate was SVR, even though a tracker is also a variable rate.  There have been contradictory ruling from the FSO, generally Bank friendly.

The Banks also argued that they no longer offered trackers as another excuse to deny trackers.  This is despite the fact that the FSO ruled that was not a valid argument, though each case differed.


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## notabene (15 Sep 2016)

In my own case with the FSO they determined that in my contract, where it stated that the tracker was for the life of the mortgage, that the rate should have automatically defaulted to the tracker, regardless of what letter was sent out.


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## UDurcan (15 Sep 2016)

SaySomething said:


> I have a copy of my fixed rate expiry notice which might help. It is a standard letter which was issued in 2010. The first paragraph reads:
> 
> _"The fixed rate period on your mortgage is coming to an end on *DATE*, so it's time to start thinking about your next mortgage deal. Any borrowings you have on this fixed rate will now automatically roll to the *Standard Variable Rate (APR X%) of X%.*
> 
> ...


 
I was referring to the form that would have been signed when moving from the tracker to a fixed rate initially...not when the fixed rate ended.


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## Gerard123 (15 Sep 2016)

notabene said:


> In my own case with the FSO they determined that in my contract, where it stated that the tracker was for the life of the mortgage, that the rate should have automatically defaulted to the tracker, regardless of what letter was sent out.



Incredible, because the FSO stated the exact opposite in my case.  I quote directly from the FSO letter -  "I accept that by agreement of the parties [date], a tracker rate of 0.xx% above the ECB rate was to apply to the Complainant’s loan for the duration of the mortgage term, I am satisfied that the Complainant altered this agreement when he decided to switch from the tracker rate to a fixed rate of interest".  In effect the FSO accepted that the later letter to switch to a tracker was by agreement for the duration of the mortgage and replaced the original contract.  That was the correct position as it is always possible to change a contract by agreement.  So how they said that the later letter was irrelevant in your case is confusing.


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## todo (15 Sep 2016)

I've a feeling the FSO work load will increase greatly when this CB review is over.
Consumers need to keep the pressure on.


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## UDurcan (15 Sep 2016)

It appears to me that each case has been dealt with on a case by case basis and perhaps depended on the individual view of the person dealing with the query or complaint in the Bank and maybe the FSO for that matter..........which is unfair in my view


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## Gerard123 (15 Sep 2016)

UDurcan said:


> It appears to me that each case has been dealt with on a case by case basis and perhaps depended on the individual view of the person dealing with the query or complaint in the Bank and maybe the FSO for that matter..........which is unfair in my view



In addition, it seems to me that the default position was to deny trackers and then seek to support that with information.  Only where it was impossible to do that was the return of trackers facilitated.


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## notabene (16 Sep 2016)

Gerard123 said:


> Incredible, because the FSO stated the exact opposite in my case.  I quote directly from the FSO letter -  "I accept that by agreement of the parties [date], a tracker rate of 0.xx% above the ECB rate was to apply to the Complainant’s loan for the duration of the mortgage term, I am satisfied that the Complainant altered this agreement when he decided to switch from the tracker rate to a fixed rate of interest".  In effect the FSO accepted that the later letter to switch to a tracker was by agreement for the duration of the mortgage and replaced the original contract.  That was the correct position as it is always possible to change a contract by agreement.  So how they said that the later letter was irrelevant in your case is confusing.



It is incredible alright, but I think it was because the mortgage contract specifically saiD for the life of the mortgage & the fixed authority said nothing to contradict this?  they said the reason they couldn't return the tracker is that Ulster bank's underwriters deemed it impossible at this time - funny that


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## notabene (16 Sep 2016)

Gerard123 said:


> In addition, it seems to me that the default position was to deny trackers and then seek to support that with information.  Only where it was impossible to do that was the return of trackers facilitated.



Whole heartedly agree there, they did say also that I didn't try hard enough and I should have written instead of phoning, no onus on the bank to not be in breach of contract or fulfil consumer protection law, to have kept proper records of phone conversations occurring, or that took them three attempts & 7 months to get their lie of rate they offered on expiry coherent ( started out at higher rates and on the third asking by so to clarify what they did in fact do they then said they had offered original tracker (third rate) and I hadn't taken up - outright lie but no slap on the wrist for that either


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## UDurcan (27 Oct 2016)

Has anybody had any update from Ulster Bank as to where they are at with this whole process......i rang last month and the girl on the phone said they were examining all mortgages not just those that had a tracker.


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## SaySomething (27 Oct 2016)

UDurcan said:


> Has anybody had any update from Ulster Bank as to where they are at with this whole process......i rang last month and the girl on the phone said they were examining all mortgages not just those that had a tracker.


Nothing at all from the bank, apart from the letters every 60 days or so to tell me they're still in the process with no expected timeframe.


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## notabene (28 Oct 2016)

UDurcan said:


> Has anybody had any update from Ulster Bank as to where they are at with this whole process......i rang last month and the girl on the phone said they were examining all mortgages not just those that had a tracker.




none, i've written to them every friday for the last 5 weeks and no replies forthcoming


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