# Probate and interim death certificate.



## Lighthouse (8 Feb 2010)

My father died last autumn following a fall at home. We were advised that there will have to be an inquest which will take at least 15 months I reckon. We were given an interim death certificate. I contacted the probate office and was advised that for the purposes of obtaining probate an interim death certificate is sufficient. I then contacted the relevant dept in the Revenue and was given the same advice. The solicitor who has my father's will had told us last November that we needed a final death certificate which will not be available till after the inquest. The will is pretty straightforward in that the family home (which was my father's only asset) is to be sold and the proceeds divided among his children. My mother died a number of years ago. Has our solictor given us poor advice?


----------



## Eithneangela (8 Feb 2010)

THe official sources are the Courts Service and Revenue - take their advice.  Also, be aware that if you apply for the grant of probate now, you are likely to be waiting up to 24 weeks for an appointment!!  I applied last November (straightforward - death of Mother, death cert available, will in place, no complexities) and was told that I would have to wait 20/22 weeks for an initial appointment.  And, there wasn't even a work-to-rule or go-slow or whatever the public service is calling it's current protest activities.  Good luck with the process.


----------



## Lighthouse (8 Feb 2010)

Thanks! Good luck with yours too.


----------



## Mr. C.J.H. (8 Feb 2010)

Your solicitor is indeed mistaken, but the easiest way to sort it is just to explain to him your dealings with the Probate Office. Alternatively approach another solicitor. A solicitor can administer the Estate a lot quicker than a lay person and you will not be able to sell the property without one, so there is absolutely no point in doing a personal application yourself as the other poster has suggested.


----------



## rockofages (9 Feb 2010)

All probate applications can be done in Dublin, where I was told in November the waiting time is 5 months for personal applications (2 weeks for solicitors - don't ask me why).

However it may be possible to do it in a District Probate Registry if the deceased resided outside of Dublin (and surrounding counties). In my case I was able to do it in Galway where the waiting time is 3-4 weeks for personal applications.


----------



## Mr. C.J.H. (9 Feb 2010)

rockofages said:


> All probate applications can be done in Dublin, where I was told in November the waiting time is 5 months for personal applications (2 weeks for solicitors - don't ask me why).


 
The reason is that solicitors don't need to have their hands held to complete the probate process and have everything explained to them i.e. Inland Revenue Affidavit is completed, High Court Cert obtained, Oath for Executor executed and other proofs are in order. Solicitors' applications should be complete and whilst minor queries are quite commonly raised by the Probate Seat Office, such queries are quickly resolved without any input from the Probate Office. In other words a hell of a lot less time is required for every solicitor application than is the case for a personal application.


----------



## mf1 (9 Feb 2010)

I wonder is the issue that some assets cannot be accessed  without an official death cert? Life policies and the like. 

I personally ( as a purchaser's solicitor) would prefer to see a final death  cert. rather than an interim cert. 

mf


----------



## Lighthouse (9 Feb 2010)

mf1 said:


> I wonder is the issue that some assets cannot be accessed without an official death cert? Life policies and the like.
> 
> I personally ( as a purchaser's solicitor) would prefer to see a final death cert. rather than an interim cert.
> 
> mf


 
There are no assets - other than the family home. I'd imagine that there will be a final death certificate before the sale of the house is complete in any event. My particular issue is with the competence - or otherwise - of this particular solicitor and his apparant unwillingness to get moving on the probate with an interim death certificate. I think I may ask the executors to pay him what he is owed for the work he has completed and then move to another solicitor who is a bit more progressive.


----------



## rockofages (10 Feb 2010)

Mr. C.J.H. said:


> The reason is that solicitors don't need to have their hands held to complete the probate process and have everything explained to them i.e. Inland Revenue Affidavit is completed,............


In fairness (to me) I filled all the documentation myself and posted in copies for pre-approval. All was in order. When I went into the district probate registry it took all of about 15 mins.

While I understand some people may need more assistance that I did, I think the double fee is a bit disingenuous to most of us mere mortals.


----------



## Padraigb (10 Feb 2010)

mf1 said:


> I personally ( as a purchaser's solicitor) would prefer to see a final death  cert. rather than an interim cert.



Why? An interim death certificate is proof that somebody has died. The fact that the cause of death has not yet been determined would seem not to be material.


----------



## secman (12 Feb 2010)

Just posting something that I find amusing when dealing with Probate. I have sucessfully carried out 3 personal applications and the one thing that often pops up is : I contact various institutions to have funds transferred to the Executors account, obviously they seek to sight the Grant of Probate and usually stamp it as prrof of sight, but they also require sight of Death Cert. Thing is, under no circumastances could one get Grant of Probate without absolute proof of death, hence one would think that using this logic ie High Court is satisfied that death has occured and issue Grant of Probate, yet institutions want more proof than grant of Probate !

Secman


----------



## mf1 (12 Feb 2010)

Padraigb said:


> Why? An interim death certificate is proof that somebody has died. The fact that the cause of death has not yet been determined would seem not to be material.



I think my concern would be anything appearing on the final death certificate relating to mental capacity so, for example, (in addition to, say, penumonia) "Alzheimers 10 years" where a will was made in that intervening period. This could call into question the validity of the will. 

mf


----------



## Padraigb (12 Feb 2010)

mf1 said:


> I think my concern would be anything appearing on the final death certificate relating to mental capacity so, for example, (in addition to, say, penumonia) "Alzheimers 10 years" where a will was made in that intervening period. This could call into question the validity of the will.



It's a point worth considering. But I wonder if really makes a significant difference. You see more death certificates than I do, but I have an impression that a "normal" death certificate generally does not convey information about mental incapacity unless the incapacitating condition was a cause of death. 

An interim death certificate is issued where the cause of death is not readily determinable. Have you come across any situation where a final death certificate in such a situation revealed anything about capacity to make a will? I am finding it difficult to imagine that happening.


----------



## mf1 (12 Feb 2010)

Padraigb said:


> It's a point worth considering. But I wonder if really makes a significant difference. You see more death certificates than I do, but I have an impression that a "normal" death certificate generally does not convey information about mental incapacity unless the incapacitating condition was a cause of death.
> 
> An interim death certificate is issued where the cause of death is not readily determinable. Have you come across any situation where a final death certificate in such a situation revealed anything about capacity to make a will? I am finding it difficult to imagine that happening.



Its not that unusual : Alzheimers for a specified period regularly appears on a Death Certificate, not as a principal cause, but as a contributory factor. So that definitely raises concerns about capacity and it would definitely cause problems with the Probate Office if there is any question about capacity as at the date of making the will. 

mf


----------



## Padraigb (12 Feb 2010)

mf1 said:


> Its not that unusual : Alzheimers for a specified period regularly appears on a Death Certificate, not as a principal cause, but as a contributory factor. So that definitely raises concerns about capacity and it would definitely cause problems with the Probate Office if there is any question about capacity as at the date of making the will.



Thanks for the explanation. I have heard the saying that one doesn't die *of* Alzheimer's, but one can die *with* Alzheimer's. It seems that not all the medical profession take that view.


----------

