# DIY Divorce - property issue, ex has new partner



## Topcat (20 Sep 2011)

I am separated 6 yrs (age 35), a judicial separation is in place. This agreed that ex (age 35) resides in family home with 3 children of the marriage until they reach 18 / finished in education. My ex denied in court that new partner lived in the family home. 2 / 3 yrs later he is still there and they have had child. I want to proceed with diy divorce and readdress property arrangements. Property value 230,000, equity 205,000. Ex has started to contribute to mortgage two years ago.. My affidavits are ready but how do i bring his financial standing into the equation? Her new partner is financial sound, owns his own home and in stable employment. I have written to her twice requesting they address my equity / mortgage payments


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## Thirsty (20 Sep 2011)

Let me be sure I understand this.

The arrangement with the family home was that your children and your former wife would continue to live there until they were 18 (or 23 if in full time education).  What was to happen after the youngest was finished?  Property sold & proceeds divided? 

So what you are now looking for is the property settlement to be overturned?  Where do you expect your children to live if the family home is sold?

I don't understand what you expect her partner to do?  He has no interest in the family home & could not be expected to contribute to the mortgage payments (which based on your figures is only  €25,000). 

For what it's worth (and this is anecdotal) if your JS is post '96, it's rare for property settlements to be over turned.

I would only recommend doing a DIY divorce if you are using the same settlement terms as for the JS and the terms are not contested.


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## Bronte (20 Sep 2011)

The new partner may not have been living there 3 years ago. If it was a new relationship he may have overnighted sometimes until making the commitment, and it's some commitment to take on someone else's kids, especially when there are 3 of them. 

Did you pay for the mortgage until 2 years ago? How much did each of you intitally contribute to the house purchase (deposit, etc)

Presumable in order for your ex to pay you the 'equity' the family home would have to be sold? Is that what you want? What is in your affidavits? Is your aim to say that the new partner's income forms part of your ex's living expenses and that she is entitled to less maintenance from you.


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## Topcat (20 Sep 2011)

Thanks all, yes in the judicial separation it was agreed that property would be sold and proceeds divided (2007). I will not press for a sale of family home and unsettling children, and agree maintaining the children is my responsibility. I am not trying to “win” but would hope to achieve a balanced final outcome allowing both parties to move on. My income has dipped considerably recently, I live in an over crowed house share, I cannot have overnight access while ex and new partner enjoy the fruits of my labour? This may be my reality / reality of separation but that doesn’t mean I have to like it? 
I have prepared Family Civil Bill / Affidavit of means / welfare. When my ex produces an affidavit of means I wanted to request a true picture of household income. Also they have equity in two properties and stable incomes this maybe a good time to suggest an equity buy out


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## Bronte (20 Sep 2011)

Do you think your partner can borrow 100K easily to pay you?  Would she then still be able to manage bringing up the children. 

It's not easy when couples split up and men in particular end up in not very nice living accommodation as generally it is they who have to leave the family home.  

Try not to be bitter about the fact your ex has a new partner and a good quality of living, isn't that what is best for your kids.  Focus on the good things.  It is not her fault the new partner has a good job and house, you actually don't know if he has a lot of debt, negative equity, commitments etc.  

Is there anything you can do for yourself to secure accommodation that is suitable for family overnighters.  It's very important for your and your children to keep everything amicable.


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## WizardDr (20 Sep 2011)

@Topcat

Have you picked up a copy of Family Law by the Law Society?

Very readable.

Changes in your spouses financial well being will come up.


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## Thirsty (20 Sep 2011)

OK your second post makes things clearer; basically what you want is your share of the equity now rather than later. 

So there's two aspects to this

a) does your former wife *want* to buy you out? (she doesn't have to)
b) can she raise the money to do so?

I don't believe you will get a court order for the sale of the family home.
So if she doesn't want to buy you out, you're wasting your time.

The new partner doesn't enter into the equation here.  The only aspect that comes into it is if he is living in the house there would be an assumption that some contribution is made towards the bills, but that would be offset by the higher amount on the bills anyway.  From a legal perspective, it's a non-starter to be honest.

You're right that it might be a good time to talk about a buy out, but doing it via the courts is the wrong way to go about it.

Pick up the phone, have a chat, keep it simple & see how you get on.


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## hastalavista (20 Sep 2011)

The assets/income etc of the new partner dont enter into the discussion re your divorce and you have no right to any information on him. Been there done that

In simple terms to frustrate you he can exit the house while this is proceeding.

Given that the house wont be sold you have to ask yourself what benefit will divorce bring you. Allow your ex to remarry?

I dont know, I am just asking because you need to be crystal clear in a dispassionate way why it is a good idea.

I can see the angst in your posts but divorce may be the wrong 'weapon'

The other concern is that the new child may queer the pitch from the perspective of the JS: depends on the wording


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## Thirsty (20 Sep 2011)

hastalavista - the only way the OP can change the terms of the JS is by  Divorce proceedings so I'm guessing that's why he has initiated it.

I doubt it will have the effect he wants however.


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## Bronte (21 Sep 2011)

Topcat are you paying maintenance?  If your circumstances have changed then this is an area that should maybe be relooked at.


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## Thirsty (21 Sep 2011)

Following up on Bronte's post, you can apply for a variation of Maintenance without starting divorce proceedings, and it is something you can do easily yourself.

It's only worth doing though if there has been a material change in either of your  circumstances.


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## csirl (21 Sep 2011)

Surely the partner should be regarded as paying the going rate in rent for living in the house?


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## Topcat (21 Sep 2011)

Thanks Wizard, I read it after seeing your post. 
I am paying maintenance and applied for / received a variation after being made redundant. 
Hasta, should she re-marry I’d like to think that means I cannot be approached for spousal maintenance in the longer term
csirl – exactly my sentiments. I’m paying rent and servicing a mortgage. I had hoped the court would take the view that the new party should be contributing. If he is paying rent half of this payment should be to me! I don’t want to profit, let this be in lieu of a portion of maintenance. Or at least be considered in relation to final settlement 
My interpretation of the feedback is that I most likely will not get bought out in a divorce. I still feel now is a good time to bring it to court. Ex is happy / secure so maybe I can get in and out court without the crocodile tears that have been a feature up to now and in light of new relationship / child / living arrangements I may get a better split of the asset, be it in the future...... my ex seems content with the status quo so I suspect there may be a welfare fiddle but who knows.


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## Thirsty (21 Sep 2011)

> I am paying maintenance and applied for / received a variation after being made redundant.


Ok, so that's sorted then; but I don't understand how you would purchase a house/flat if you are not working?



> Hasta, should she re-marry I’d like to think that means I cannot be approached for spousal maintenance in the longer term


It's not a question of 'liking to think' this is the case, if your former wife re-marries your spousal maintenance stops.  Are you paying spousal maintenance now though?



> I’m paying rent and servicing a mortgage.


Yes, but you stand to benefit from that mortgage payment in the future.



> I had hoped the court would take the view that the new party should be contributing. If he is paying rent half of this payment should be to me! I don’t want to profit, let this be in lieu of a portion of maintenance. Or at least be considered in relation to final settlement


Think you are getting a bit confused, I doubt that you'll get a statement that your former wife's partner is paying rent, and it certainly wouldn't be paid to you.  It would be considered to be income in your former wife's hands.  But you've already got a variation on maintenance so I don't see what difference it would make.



> My interpretation of the feedback is that I most likely will not get bought out in a divorce. I still feel now is a good time to bring it to court. Ex is happy / secure so maybe I can get in and out court without the crocodile tears that have been a feature up to now and in light of new relationship / child / living arrangements I may get a better split of the asset, be it in the future......


It's unlikely in my view.



> my ex seems content with the status quo so I suspect there may be a welfare fiddle but who knows.


Is she claiming Social Welfare, I thought you said she was working? If she's not working then I don't see for a minute how you expect her to buy you out.  If you genuinely believe there is fraud you can report it.


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## Bronte (22 Sep 2011)

Topcat said:


> I am paying maintenance and applied for / received a variation after being made redundant.
> 
> .


 

Your posts are hard to figure out. 

Family home

You were paying for the mortgage on the family home? Were you paying the full amount? At the same time you were paying rent.  Was your wife a stay at home spouse or did she contribute?  During the marriage did you both contribute to the mortgage and deposit.  

2 years ago you said she started to pay the mortgage, does that mean you don't pay the mortgage any more? 

To decide on who gets the proceds generally is down to the contributions put in by each partner. But in divorce proceedings it can be decided differently. 

Maintenance

Did you pay both spousal and child maintenance? Are you continuing to pay both

New partner

How do you know he owns his own home, does he not have a mortgage? I don't think a courts would rule that he pays rent to your wife, but he may be contributing to the house hold income (paying utilities and groceries etc) so your wife would require less maintenance, but this does not abdicate from your obligations to your children

Your needs

You say you got a variation, were you happy with that variation? If your income has again decreased then you can go for another variation. You mention redundancy, did you get a lump sum, enough to secure better accommodation? Are you working now. 

Home equity

How do you think your wife could pay you the equity you think you are entitled to without getting a loan, thereby reducing her income and thereby reducing her means to support the children of the marriage. It is exceedingly difficult to get a mortgage at present, do you think a bank would entertain a loan to her on a house in both your names to pay you back the equity. 

In any case you will get what is due to you when your children leave home? This will probably be based on your contributions.


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## Topcat (22 Sep 2011)

Apologies for being vague with my personal details. Its been helpful to get some feedback though. I'd like to be bought out but I'd be satisfied if the new patner was contributing to the household budget and take it from there.
Up to now my ex affidavits of means have not included a contribution from him, at time of variation two years ago it was denied he lived in the house, she told the judge he owned his own home, she was in receipt of welfare, and a wage, i dont know the details of employment. Karma doesnt allow me contact welfare. But I did stay out of their affairs for the last 3 years and am unhappy that they would presume to start / raise a family without and acknowledgment of my contributions


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## Thirsty (22 Sep 2011)

> I'd be satisfied if the new patner was contributing to the household budget and take it from there.


None of your business, you can't interfere here.



> am unhappy that they would presume to start / raise a family without and acknowledgment of my contributions


Suspect this is the root of your issues; again, and apologies for being harsh, it's none of your business.

Deal with what you can deal with and learn to leave the rest of it alone; trust me it will eat you up otherwise.


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## Topcat (22 Sep 2011)

Thirsty, if she were to take in a lodger would see have to include that income in her affidavit of means? From my perspective what is the difference?  The woman has the right to move on with her life and I am delighted to see her do it but when my ex submits her household expenses in court (heating, groceries, etc) and I am expected to contribute towards it, does it make a difference then who ran up the bills?  As I already pointed out he was living there the last time these figures were submitted to the court but my ex denied it as she was receiving welfare… So the higher bills were not offset by his contribution 
This is not eating me up. I have housed my children. I pay maintenance towards them. I have access. I have a life outside of that. I am looking to improve my own situation and I have reasonable cause to feel aggrieved. If I told you her new partner was renting out his property while he lived in mine would that make a difference? Either way thanks for your opinions, another perspective can be helpful


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## Bronte (23 Sep 2011)

Topcat said:


> But I did stay out of their affairs for the last 3 years and am unhappy that they would presume to start / raise a family without and acknowledgment of my contributions


 
Here is your problem.  You have to let it go.  Otherwise you will only end up a bitter man.  Maybe you need to talk to someone, family perhaps.


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## hastalavista (23 Sep 2011)

It really depends if you want to play hardball here.

Its all very well to be told to move on let go etc but you are the person shelling out the readies..... 

My prior contribution was addressing the divorce paperwork from a facts perspective.

The fact that he is in the house will mean the household income test will be different for welfare means tests, you don't need to 'prove' or 'disprove' any contribution of his to bills etc.

Based on what you have written, there is certainly enough to go from a perjury perspective which if proven will strengthen you hand.

However, as said earlier, I don't thing the divorce route will get you anywhere vis a vis you being bought out, as you say, its too cosy: stroke you, stroke the dole and lie in court.


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## csirl (23 Sep 2011)

In the circumstances where there is going to be no chance of reconciliation and the ex is living with someone else, surely a divorce is the the best option? Would allow both parties to get on with their lives. Would allow the ex to re-marry (maybe not immediately, but possibly in the future), thus saving spousal maintenance costs for the OP.


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## Thirsty (24 Sep 2011)

The only thing a divorce offers above a JS is the option to re-marry; starting divorce proceedings can also be an opportunity to re-visit the settlement terms of the JS, but it's rarely overturned unless it was pre-96 or the judge is satisfied that there wasn't full disclosure at the time of the JS. (Anecdotal evidence)

As the OP hasn't mentioned it, I'm assuming that he doesn't want to re-marry at this time; and as his former wife hasn't started proceedings its probably a safe bet that neither does his former wife at this time.

The OP hasn't said if he is paying spousal maintenance or not (I'm assuming not) and there's no guarantee that his former wife will ever re-marry in any event.  So starting divorce proceedings on that basis is a bit airy-fairy really.

Assuming you are not paying spousal maintenance, then the money you are paying is a) child maintenance and b) your share of the mortgage.

Child maintenance you are obliged to pay anyway and since you got a variation on the basis of being made redundant, I'm assuming you had it reduced to the minimum level?

Your share of the mortgage payments must be quite small though?  A mortgage of €25,000 is very low. 

If you are paying spousal maintenance under court order - you are aware that you can claim tax relief on it?  And you can also claim additional tax relief in respect of being a lone parent.

As I've said the only difference his living in the house could make is in respect to his assumed contribution to household bills and thus to the maintenance you pay and even then I suspect the difference would be very small.

Irksome as it may be, I don't think you will be able to overturn the property settlement of your JS on the basis of your former wife having a new partner.

If you want to be bought out, your best bet is to have a chat with your former wife & see if she would like to do so.


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## danash (6 Jan 2012)

Thirsty said:


> The only thing a divorce offers above a JS is the option to re-marry; starting divorce proceedings can also be an opportunity to re-visit the settlement terms of the JS, but it's rarely overturned unless it was pre-96 or the judge is satisfied that there wasn't full disclosure at the time of the JS. (Anecdotal evidence)
> 
> As the OP hasn't mentioned it, I'm assuming that he doesn't want to re-marry at this time; and as his former wife hasn't started proceedings its probably a safe bet that neither does his former wife at this time.
> 
> ...


 

Apologies to OP if I hijack this thread......I am in a similar situation in that I have been separated 6 years now and we had two properties and took one each. My Ex gave up work and went to court to increase the maintenance I pay. We negotiated and a new payment was set. Now she has gone back to work after 3 years and when I asked for maintenance to be reduced again there is deathly silence and ignorance of my emails.

Rather than go back to court for a variation order I am going straight to DIY divorce as I do want to remarry.

Question is.....anecdotes say that everything is up for grabs again at Divorce and I wonder what the out come would likely be. I am living with my new partner in our new home ( negative equity of 250K ) - I have rented out the marital asset I took in the settlement and it is just covering the mortgage - equity of maybe 50 K. I also have guaranteed the mortgage on her home for 250K so my credit is at the limit.

She has threatened to go after the equity in the house I took in settlement - would the Judge look at my overall negative equity situation or would he likely order it sold to give her 25 K ? I note comments on post '96 settlements rarely being overturned.

What are my chances of getting the maintenance reduced by at least the amount of spousal maintenance I pay - 1200 for her and 1000 for the children.

I dont want to get screwed again but do want finality. I cant afford a solicitor as I use every penny to service debts built up while she was not working and most of the deal is done anyhow.

Any insights greatly appreciated.


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## Paul O Brien (26 Oct 2019)

The judge needs first and foremost to be fair to everyone involved. You need adequate money to live on. She's not an invalid and has a responsibility to support herself and the children. Men do a poke job of voicing there own concerns in Irish family courts. you have an excellent chance of getting maintenance reduced.


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## Thirsty (26 Oct 2019)

Seven years later, I suspect these issues have been resolved.


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