# why do accountants get paid so much



## ciaran1979 (17 May 2009)

Hi guys

I am not having a go but am just wondering why accountant get paid so much?


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## JoeB (17 May 2009)

How much do they get then?

Is it much more than the 60 Euro / hour car garages often charge?

Or more than the 120 Euro / hour a plumbing company quoted recently?

Or more than the 60 Euro / 30mins a doctor may charge?

I'm sure it's less than the 10,000 Euro / day charged by tribunal barristers...


What would you say is a reasonable amount for an accountant to charge?


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## allthedoyles (17 May 2009)

JoeBallantin said:


> How much do they get then?
> 
> Or more than the 60 Euro / 30mins a doctor may charge?


 
Our local doctor charges € 50 euro for 5 minutes


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## DavyJones (17 May 2009)

JoeBallantin said:


> Or more than the 120 Euro / hour a plumbing company quoted recently?



Under what circumstances were you quoted that?

I am moving to Dublin.


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## SLS (17 May 2009)

I would have thought the salary for accountants would be alike to most other jobs i.e.  are based on a combination of skills required to do the job (sometimes length of study, accreditation requirements seems to increase salaries) plus basic supply/demand.

I'm not an accountant but I suspect it would be in alignment with other professional service occupations such as solicitors, IT..


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## MandaC (17 May 2009)

When I worked in an Accountants I used to wonder why tradespeople got paid so much.


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## BaileyMc (17 May 2009)

Eh no they don't!


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## JoeB (17 May 2009)

DavyJones:

Yes, I wasn't completely clear... it was several years ago, my mother called a plumbing firm from the Yellow Pages, they quoted 120 Euro / Hour. I don't know the name of the company. The work was to be carried out in a private house, it was to plumb a new shower into an area where a shower had been but the shower had broken and developed a leak.. it wasn't an emergency call-out though, there was no urgency to the job.


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## WaterSprite (17 May 2009)

allthedoyles said:


> Our local doctor charges € 50 euro for 5 minutes



I presume you mean the doctor charges €50 for a visit/consultation.  I presume s/he doesn't charge €100 if you stay for 10 minutes, or €150 if you stay for 15 minutes. Should the doctor take longer than necessary to make a diagnosis? 

If there are doctors that you believe overcharge (there have been a couple of threads on that topic where it seemed indeed like the charges were excessive), then change.  It bugs me when people bandy this type of thing around - and others will give out if they get charged by a doctor to tell them there's nothing wrong with them!  

Apart from the regulated supply of doctors, lawyers and accountants (based in membership of the various professional organisations), SLS outlines the basis for costs well.  People always have difficulty if they are not receiving something concrete/physical for their money, forgetting that qualified advice (based on training and experience) is also worth money.  It's not only to do with time, but also to do with expertise.  Top advisers in the big accounting firms have charge-out rates north of €600 an hour.


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## Purple (17 May 2009)

ciaran1979 said:


> Hi guys
> 
> I am not having a go but am just wondering why accountant get paid so much?


 Because that's what the market will stand.


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## allthedoyles (17 May 2009)

WaterSprite said:


> I presume you mean the doctor charges €50 for a visit/consultation. I presume s/he doesn't charge €100 if you stay for 10 minutes, or €150 if you stay for 15 minutes. .


 
Yes , I confirm , doctor charges € 50 per consultation , not per 5 minutes


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## BaileyMc (17 May 2009)

I don't really see how anyone can think accountants get paid highly.

Starting salaries vary from 15-24k or so with minimal increases until they get their finals.  Accountants spend a minimum of 6 and a half years training and would be getting somewhere between 35-50k as qualified seniors.  Given the length of time spend training/qualifying and the training salaries along the way they are not anyways highly paid.


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## AJC (17 May 2009)

It's like a lot of professions...some accountants get paid "so much", some get paid a bit above average (especially in Dublin), and some get paid below average.

I am an accountant, 10+ years post qualification, big 4, MNC experience. I am not over paid. I took a 15% salary cut in February and my job finishes next month. The only job on the horizon, possibly, is one paying 20% less again (i.e. a salary less than I was on in 2003)

Hmmm, I dont feel overpaid, and 50/50 I may well be on the dole next month.


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## micmclo (18 May 2009)

JoeBallantin said:


> Or more than the 60 Euro / 30mins a doctor may charge?



Any GP I've gone to has me out the door within 10 minutes, still full price.

Ok, I got what I paid for but they are seeing far more patients then one every 30 minutes.

Think I'll have to wait until I have several issues and get them done at the same time to get full value for my 53 euro


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## Slash (18 May 2009)

BaileyMc said:


> Accountants spend a minimum of 6 and a half years training....



...which is about the same length of time a doctor spends in academic training, so that's why accountants get paid fairly well.

Barristers, on the other hand spend much less time in academic training, but seem to get paid much better. A barrister told me "I get paid a lot for what I know, not for what I do". It has to be said that not all barristers get paid a lot, some make a fairly modest living, and some do not stick at it at all.


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## Sunny (18 May 2009)

A 'minimum' six and half years to become a qualified accountant? I must have been a genius!


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## Towger (18 May 2009)

Sunny said:


> A 'minimum' six and half years to become a qualified accountant? I must have been a genius!



Sure, if your as good as Bertie, all you need to do it a short summer course in London to become an accountant


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## Luckycharm (18 May 2009)

Slash said:


> ...which is about the same length of time a doctor spends in academic training, so that's why accountants get paid fairly well.
> 
> Barristers, on the other hand spend much less time in academic training, but seem to get paid much better. A barrister told me "I get paid a lot for what I know, not for what I do". It has to be said that not all barristers get paid a lot, some make a fairly modest living, and some do not stick at it at all.


 
The TOP barrister top 5% get paid a fortune but alot of them barely scrap by as they are totally reliant on Solicitors giving them work.


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## Kiddo (19 May 2009)

> why accountant get paid so much


Because we're worth it

The majority of accountancy trainees, most with at least a degree, start at entry level jobs on low pay then study for the accountancy exams in their own time and sometimes at their own expense! Entry level pay in a small practice can be 15 - 20K, as pointed out by BaileyMC

As for qualified accountants, the salary depends a lot on the sector (practice/industry/financial services) the type of role & the experiance they have. 




> Because that's what the market will stand


 
Very true but two sides to that comment in my experiance.

I started in a small accountancy practice at £50 a week back in the 90's, when who you knew not what you knew was the key and was delighted to get the job

Roll forward a few years and due to a shortage of accountants at the time, a couple of post qualification moves saw me almost double my qualification salary.

However I've a wide range of experiance, 15 years of knowledge and as the job ads often say "salary commensurate with experience"


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## IsleOfMan (29 Dec 2009)

micmclo said:


> Any GP I've gone to has me out the door within 10 minutes, still full price.


 
Did you complain to the doctor or just moan about it here?


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## z107 (29 Dec 2009)

That was the nature of the bubble. All these professions and trades were able to charge excessive amounts. Easy credit and high wages inflated costs.
Now that the bubble has burst, so too will these charges go down. At least in non-protected professions.


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## Purple (30 Dec 2009)

umop3p!sdn said:


> Now that the bubble has burst, so too will these charges go down. At least in non-protected professions.



It's also a lesson in supply and demand and open competition. With such an over-supply of accountants, lawyers, architects etc professional fees should be dropping massively over the next few years. Brick-layers (a highly skilled job, more skilled than a solicitor that has spend the last ten years trotting back and forwards to the land registry)are getting less than half the rates they were on a few years back. That's the sort of change we need in many of the professions.


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## jack2009 (30 Dec 2009)

You are being charged a rate that has to cover salaries, rent rates and many other overheads and of course a cut so that the partners can make some money.


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## BONDGIRL (4 Jan 2010)

my friend is qualified about 5 yrs, has great experience on about 60k but she has to work last most nights like from 9am to about 7pm.. month end worse...


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## buzybee (4 Jan 2010)

I used to be an accountant.  I left because of the long hours.  Even though the earnings look good on paper, by the time you have all your hours put in, you would be earning a similar hourly rate to a skilled administrator.

In fact I think HR officers are paid very well considering they don't have the pressure of deadlines, month end etc.  Also when they go on hols there isn't a huge backlog waiting for when they get back.  They can get in with a certificate or degree.  This would only take 2 or 3 yrs.  Of course some of them would do further study by themselves but they don't NEED lots of study to get into HR.


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## Caveat (4 Jan 2010)

But very good HR managers are rare IME and let's face it, a very good one can be invaluable to a company - probably well worth a 'good' salary.  Many HR staff are not particularly well paid anyway as far as I can see.


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## Complainer (5 Jan 2010)

buzybee said:


> I used to be an accountant.  I left because of the long hours.  Even though the earnings look good on paper, by the time you have all your hours put in, you would be earning a similar hourly rate to a skilled administrator.
> 
> In fact I think HR officers are paid very well considering they don't have the pressure of deadlines, month end etc.  Also when they go on hols there isn't a huge backlog waiting for when they get back.  They can get in with a certificate or degree.  This would only take 2 or 3 yrs.  Of course some of them would do further study by themselves but they don't NEED lots of study to get into HR.


Faraway hills?


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## Towger (5 Jan 2010)

buzybee said:


> In fact I think HR officers are paid very well considering they don't have the pressure of deadlines, month end etc. Also when they go on hols there isn't a huge backlog waiting for when they get back. They can get in with a certificate or degree. This would only take 2 or 3 yrs. Of course some of them would do further study by themselves but they don't NEED lots of study to get into HR.


 
From working in HR in the past I fully agree!


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## buzybee (5 Jan 2010)

Got out of accountancy and never looked back.  Working in civil service.  Even though I am only on 25K for a 35 hour week, my hourly rate of pay is STILL higher than what I got when I was on 'salary' as an accountant and doing crazy hours.

Also the work is a lot less taxing, less deadlines, more people to help out for hols etc.


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## mainasia (6 Jan 2010)

It's a valid question. Most professions that pay well in Ireland are protected by a professional accreditation association, they set the fees and you pay them or else. They also control the numbers in that industry Because of the boom there was also a massive demand for accountants, that is obviously completely changed now.

It's not got anything to do with length of study, that's a complete fallacy. 
if you want to get anywhere these days you are talking about doing a master's degree, add on to your basic 4 year degree and you are talking 5-6 years..not much different than lawyer/doctor/accountant etc.
Scientists and some other professions have to study longer, work harder getting PhDs but often get lower pay.

Finally there is a recognised progression, chartered accountants etc. Depends on your level of progression into the 'club'.


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## Bronte (6 Jan 2010)

Purple said:


> With such an over-supply of accountants, lawyers, architects etc professional fees should be dropping massively over the next few years. .


 
My understanding was that in relation to lawyers the fees will be going up, not down, to pay for the increased professional indemnity insurance, the lack of business and the dearth of clients who will actually pay their bills.


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## Purple (6 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> My understanding was that in relation to lawyers the fees will be going up, not down, to pay for the increased professional indemnity insurance, the lack of business and the dearth of clients who will actually pay their bills.



It would be bizarre in the extreme for anyone to put their prices up as demand for their goods or services drop. While insurance is a cost factor it’s not the major one for solicitors.


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## InfoSeeker (6 Jan 2010)

Purple, I think your phrase 'bizarre in the extreme' is a ridiculous comment.

From the feedback I have received from friends who are solicitors, insurance is going to cause major issues for firms going forward. In the instances that I know of, insurance has increased 4 fold from 4k to 16K. The impact of this will be that firms have & will continue to downsize.......back to your demand & supply.....also many of those made redundant will not be able to go out on their own due to the aforementioned insurance costs as most banks are not throwing money around at the moment!!!


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## MandaC (7 Jan 2010)

InfoSeeker said:


> From the feedback I have received from friends who are solicitors, insurance is going to cause major issues for firms going forward. In the instances that I know of, insurance has increased 4 fold from 4k to 16K. The impact of this will be that firms have & will continue to downsize.......back to your demand & supply.....also many of those made redundant will not be able to go out on their own due to the aforementioned insurance costs as most banks are not throwing money around at the moment!!!



Have witnessed this in the Accountancy/Taxation sector too.


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## Purple (7 Jan 2010)

InfoSeeker said:


> Purple, I think your phrase 'bizarre in the extreme' is a ridiculous comment.
> 
> From the feedback I have received from friends who are solicitors, insurance is going to cause major issues for firms going forward. In the instances that I know of, insurance has increased 4 fold from 4k to 16K. The impact of this will be that firms have & will continue to downsize.......back to your demand & supply.....also many of those made redundant will not be able to go out on their own due to the aforementioned insurance costs as most banks are not throwing money around at the moment!!!



So costs increase by €12'000 per year or €1'000 a month. What does an one-person-practice solicitor turn over in a year? Is it really so little that a drop of less than €250 a week means they are better off on the dole? If that's the case then they are taking a salary of less than €500 a week or €25'000 a year. I didn't think solicitors were earning less than €12.50 a hour. Live and learn I suppose...


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## InfoSeeker (7 Jan 2010)

When I referred to downsizing, I was not referring to a one person firm as downsizing in that instance would mean there is no one left!!

The people whom I know would be employees & the option of whether they are better off on the dole is irrelevant as the choice is not theirs. IMHO no one is better off on the dole as the financial impact is only one of the issues that people face in this situation.

Those who do lose their jobs would certainly struggle to start up a one person practice as where would they get the start up capital and the fee base to cover costs.


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## Purple (7 Jan 2010)

InfoSeeker said:


> When I referred to downsizing, I was not referring to a one person firm as downsizing in that instance would mean there is no one left!!
> 
> The people whom I know would be employees & the option of whether they are better off on the dole is irrelevant as the choice is not theirs. IMHO no one is better off on the dole as the financial impact is only one of the issues that people face in this situation.
> 
> Those who do lose their jobs would certainly struggle to start up a one person practice as where would they get the start up capital and the fee base to cover costs.



Right, so why not offer to take a €12'000 pay cut rather than lose their job or increase prices?


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## InfoSeeker (8 Jan 2010)

I am beginning to see how you have amassed 4,000+ posts


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## Bronte (8 Jan 2010)

Purple said:


> . I didn't think solicitors were earning less than €12.50 a hour. Live and learn I suppose...


 
If you are say a one man practice and you were earning 40K to 50K a year and you PI goes from 4K to 12K before any other cost and your 40K is going down to 30K or 20K then the fees are going to go up because it doesn't make sense otherwise.

What will happen is that those on these low fees will have to go out of business, lose their premises etc and for a short while fees will go up but in about 6 months to a year things will change.  We will see solicitors eager for business who have scaled back their costs coming back with more competitive fees.  When they move from the upmarket office on the high street with 2 secretaries and one legal executive to working from home for example.  I imagine much the same will happen with accountants and other professionals.  We will also see young recently qualified people with no commitments eager to do business who will stir things up.  

I had a quote for a job last month from my long standing solicitor, I consider the quote really really high for the job but I'm not in a hurry and I'll wait until things have settled and fees come back down or in my case I'll do the job myself when I have time.


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## Purple (8 Jan 2010)

Bronte said:


> If you are say a one man practice and you were earning 40K to 50K a year and you PI goes from 4K to 12K before any other cost and your 40K is going down to 30K or 20K then the fees are going to go up because it doesn't make sense otherwise.


How would an €8’000 increase in costs reduce your income by €20’000? Rent, wages, utilities, stationary etc are going down in price so that should offset some of the insurance increase. 



Bronte said:


> What will happen is that those on these low fees will have to go out of business, lose their premises etc and for a short while fees will go up but in about 6 months to a year things will change.  We will see solicitors eager for business who have scaled back their costs coming back with more competitive fees.  When they move from the upmarket office on the high street with 2 secretaries and one legal executive to working from home for example.  I imagine much the same will happen with accountants and other professionals.  We will also see young recently qualified people with no commitments eager to do business who will stir things up.
> 
> I had a quote for a job last month from my long standing solicitor, I consider the quote really really high for the job but I'm not in a hurry and I'll wait until things have settled and fees come back down or in my case I'll do the job myself when I have time.


 I agree, that’s what competition does; when supply is greater than demand prices drop.


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## Bronte (8 Jan 2010)

Purple said:


> How would an €8’000 increase in costs reduce your income by €20’000? Rent, wages, utilities, stationary etc are going down in price so that should offset some of the insurance increase.
> 
> .


 
I mean the income has come down because all (nearly all or certainly a lot) solicitors have seen their income drop massively particularly as so many of them were dependant on property sales, some were completely dependant on this income alone. Furthermore any that do have conveyancing work will be getting less because sale prices have dropped 45 to 40%. 

Rent has not come down for those who have signed leases, my understanding in Ireland is that there is upward only rent review clauses.

Not sure about utilities coming down, but rates etc are presumable going to go up.

Presumable accountants have also seen massive drops in income due to businessess closing down, though for a while they will have an increase maybe for liquidations etc. This will also have lost out on property related tax advice.


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