# Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused abandon



## koconnor (6 Jan 2008)

Hi all,

Last night myself mother and brother went to the Riverside Hotel in Enniscorthy for Brendan Grace's last night there.

About half and hour into his act the fire alarm went off and the entire hotel was evacuated. Needless to say the show was called off.

I called this morning looking for a refund and was told no refunds, as they are putting on a new show in February and again this time next year.

I insisted on a refund and was told the manager would ring me back. 

He did, and said no refunds. Eventually he offered one refund, but only after insisting that my brother was immegrating to Australia.

The evening out was a final fair well for my brother as he likes Brendan Grace. He wont be here in February or next year.

So my question to you is are we entitled to a full refund of the ticket price, 30 euro each?

Myself and my mother are not interested in going to see Brendan Grace as it was my brother's treat and he likes him. 

The manager said he would have to look into it and speak with the promotors. 

Looking forward to your comments,

Kevin


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## ClubMan (6 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



koconnor said:


> Eventually he offered one refund, but only after insisting that my brother was immegrating to Australia.


That's a bit much - he will only refund you if your brother leaves the country!? Thought only the _IRA _and some judges were into that sort of carry on...  


> So my question to you is are we entitled to a full refund of the ticket price, 30 euro each?


If it was me I would be looking for the full refund - or maybe less some nominal amount for the half hour of entertainment actually received. You should probably contact the NCA/ConsumerConnect to see if they can apprise you of your statutory rights in this situation.


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## quinno (6 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Might be small print covering this - like force majeure


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## REMFAN (7 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

On goodwill alone the hotel should refund you.


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## colm (7 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Have you asked consumer affairs?
I think the service was not supplied as advertised therefore you should be entitled to a refund. You should not have to make yourself available at a date of their choosing


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## bassboy (7 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Alot of gigs run in hotels would be done on the basis of promoter/act takes the door & effectively hires the facilities of the hotel for the evening. Not sure how much liability the hotel would/could accept based on the fact that it's possibly not them who pocketed your €30. Your ticket stubs should carry contact details of the promoter, who should be contacted. My past experience from dealing with promoters, has been that they are slow to refund or admit liability & will quote some obscure T&C (which nobody reads) to you which invariably will be legally correct. Persue the promoter first, then go back to the hotel. The hotel will be more likely to make a goodwill gesture.


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## emaol (7 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Unfortunately, bassboy is correct.

In all cases with ticket refunds, you have to follow the money. If the promoter can (or can be bothered) to get payment for the night from an insurance clause, then they will be amenable to a refund. They will only be bothered if more people than the OP pursue a refund.

The circus has moved on, the hotel didn't get the OP's money, gotta find who has it and bully them into a refund. 

8 years working for a Ticketmaster agent tells me that harrassing the hotel is probably your best bet. It's not their money to give back, but they may do so to make the OP go away!


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## koconnor (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Hi all,

A quick update for you all.

Spoke with Consumer agency who say I am to ask for the refund from the hotel, and mention the Sales and goods and services act.

I was told to send a registered letter, stating I wanted a refund and if no reply was given within 7 days (having stated this in the letter), to lodge a form into the small claims court.


The hotel manager rang me this evening and again offered to refund my brother's ticket but not mine or my mother's. He offered us two replacement tickets to see Christie Moore, or another date for Brendan Grace next year.


I told him I would rather the full refund. He said the promoters wouldn't allow this, and that he could again give me the one ticket refund.

I mentioned that if I was to buy a Sony television from Joe Blogs TV shop i Would go back to Joe Blogs and not Sony if I had a problem within 30 days, and if it was a fault I could get a refund or repair (not caused by me), it was my choice. 

I had in fact purchased the tickets from the hotel and not the promoter and have a valid receipt from the hotel. So my point is that the deal was with me and the hotel, and I paid for a service I did not get.


The Act I mentioned was the sale of goods and services and that I felt I was not getting what I had paid for and under this act I am entitled to a refund or alternative. I wanted the refund. 

The show was cancelled half way through due to a fire and I did not get what I had paid for.

So he said he would speak again with the promoters. 

However he did ask what would happen if ticketmaster were to cancel a concert, he said they would offer alternative dates.
True, but I said I would also be entitled to a refund.


This is where we are at right now; he's speaking with the promoters to see if I can get the full refund. My issue is with the hotel not the promoters as they were the ones who I bought the tickets from.

Any thoughts on how this might pan out guys?

Thanks,

Kevin


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## Ceist Beag (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Isn't it amazing how shortsighted people in business can be sometimes - surely it would be much easier and wiser for the hotel manager to simply refund the tickets with good grace and take up the issue with the promoter himself - maybe you should ask Fergal Quinn to make a visit to this hotel manager to give him a few tips!!


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## ClubMan (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Small Claims Court costs €9. I presume that the maximum they could award you in this case would be €60. I don't know if they ever also award the _SCC _application fee? If not then the maximum you would stand to gain would be €51. You need to consider if it's worth the time and effort for the possibility of getting this amount if the _SCC _becomes the only option.


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## REMFAN (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



ClubMan said:


> Small Claims Court costs €9. I presume that the maximum they could award you in this case would be €60. I don't know if they ever also award the _SCC _application fee? If not then the maximum you would stand to gain would be €51. You need to consider if it's worth the time and effort for the possibility of getting this amount if the _SCC _becomes the only option.


 
It's the principle more than the money gain. Follow the route of SCC, they'll likely give in when they learn you've taken it that far.


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## ClubMan (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



REMFAN said:


> It's the principle more than the money gain.


That's surely for the original poster to decide?


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## koconnor (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Come on guys, where would we all be if we just accepted everything and bent over! This is why SCC is in place and the NCA, to give those who have an issue somewhere to voice their opinions and seek guidance.

Indeed I may only get back €51 but there were over 550 people at that show that particular night. And the majority of these people have accepted the new dates and of these I have to wonder how many of these asked for a refund but were told the same thing I was - and just accepted it?

I for one am glad that there are places I can go to, like the SCC and of course this place and thanks to all of you for the advice (Clubman - you put me on the right line with your first post, thanks).

If, indeed the true value of collection is a max of €60 (couldn't find any info on this figure - advise?) then I may wonder if I make two complaints to the SCC stating my mother and I both purchased the tickets; I two and her one. 


I will keep you all up to date of what happens, if I hear back from the hotel this week.


Kevin.


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## koconnor (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

"Claims cannot be made in the Small Claims Court for debts, personal injuries or breach of leasing agreements. The procedure is designed to deal with consumer claims up to 2,000 euro."


Ok, so I would be expecting to get back the €90 if successful.


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## John Rambo (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Maybe you should try and find the person who set off the fire alarm deliberately so they wouldn't have to sit through a full Brendan Grace show!Seriously though, I'd write to the hotel and mention the Small Claims Court, Sale of Goods Act etc. Most of these guys think people are mugs and once they here a few terms like that they're rattled.Best of luck


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## koconnor (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Thanks John,

Apparently there was a problem with one of the cookers in the kitchen, possibly an electrical problem, but enough of one to evacuate the whole hotel.


I did ask the manager if their insurance would sort out any refund requests and he said that all the hotel did was provide the function room for the show, nothing more. They handled the money for the purchase of tickets, but that went straight to the promoter - they had no cut from it.

I did mention the Act and SCC to him and I think he took some seriousness from it. We will wait and see after he speaks with the promoter... I get annoyed when I hear "have to speak to" as I bought from the hotel not the promoter... It may be just a tactic for him to re-evaluate the situation.


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## colm (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

At the end of the day do not accept what he says the promotor said.
You are right in that the contract is between the hotel & you. The promotor is his problem.


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## ang1170 (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Exactly: what the promotor says is irrelevant to you - your contract is with the hotel. Being told they have to check with them is just another tactic to fob you off and hope you'll go away.

If I were you I'd make it clear that regardless of what the promotor says, your contract is with the hotel; the law's clearly on your side; if they won't pay up, you'll take it to the SCC; and would they please see sense and just give the refund to save everyone more time and effort.

I'd feel slightly sorry for the hotel in that I'd be amazed if they got anything in turn out of the promotor (going legal for a company dispute is a long, long way from a €9 charge to the SCC). However, as others have pointed out, it never ceases to surprise me how short sighted some businesses are: I can't imagine you're going round town saying what a great place the hotel is, or that you'll be spending too much there in the future.


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## emaol (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*


Tickets are sold subject to the management's right to alter or vary the programme due to events or circumstances beyond its control without being obliged to refund monies or exchange tickets.
The above is taken from Ticketmaster's T&Cs from their website. Wonder if the hotel in question has such a term, and if the manager is aware of it?


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## RainyDay (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



emaol said:


> Tickets are sold subject to the management's right to alter or vary the programme due to events or circumstances beyond its control without being obliged to refund monies or exchange tickets.
> The above is taken from Ticketmaster's T&Cs from their website. Wonder if the hotel in question has such a term, and if the manager is aware of it?



I'm pretty sure I recall cases where gigs were cancelled, and Ticketmaster offered a choice of refund OR tickets for the replacement gig.


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## ang1170 (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



emaol said:


> Tickets are sold subject to the management's right to alter or vary the programme due to events or circumstances beyond its control without being obliged to refund monies or exchange tickets.
> The above is taken from Ticketmaster's T&Cs from their website. Wonder if the hotel in question has such a term, and if the manager is aware of it?


 
Just because it's on their Web site doesn't make it enforceable. They're still subject to the relevant legislation.


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## koconnor (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



emaol said:


> Tickets are sold subject to the management's right to alter or vary the programme due to events or circumstances beyond its control without being obliged to refund monies or exchange tickets.
> The above is taken from Ticketmaster's T&Cs from their website. Wonder if the hotel in question has such a term, and if the manager is aware of it?



It's all well and good for hotels to have these terms, but what about peoples Statutory Rights then, ie Sales of Goods and Services Act? 
If an establishment was to employ these terms, wouldn't that affect my rights?


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## koconnor (8 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



ang1170 said:


> Just because it's on their Web site doesn't make it enforceable. They're still subject to the relevant legislation.


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## REMFAN (9 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



ClubMan said:


> That's surely for the original poster to decide?


 
Exactly, your post questioned if it was worth going down the route of SCC when he'll only gain 51e. I pointed out that it's not about the money, but the principle


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## emaol (9 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



RainyDay said:


> I'm pretty sure I recall cases where gigs were cancelled, and Ticketmaster offered a choice of refund OR tickets for the replacement gig.



The only example in recent years I can think of where a show went on, but people got a refund, was the streisand concert, and that was after an almighty fuss caused by a considerable number of patrons.

Artists, promoters & venues are extremely reluctant to refund unless they absolutely have to, and will use any excuse/clause, including the one mentioned above.

Putting pressure on the hotel is the only realistic way of getting money back, as they are the only ones who have to face the public.

Aside from the legal aspect, what about the performer, did the OP try to contact Brendan Grace and ask if he got full pay for half a performance, and if he feels that is ok? Hot Press Yearbook would have contact details for management.


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## emaol (9 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



koconnor said:


> It's all well and good for hotels to have these terms, but what about peoples Statutory Rights then, ie Sales of Goods and Services Act?
> If an establishment was to employ these terms, wouldn't that affect my rights?



Not saying it is right or wrong, but from my experience, if you want your money back, don't expect the hotel to do it willingly.
Turn up in reception at a particularly busy time for them and loudly demand a refund, politely but firmly, with the ticket stubs as proof of purchase.
The <€100 refund against the manager's time and the disturbance in the hotel means you should get what you want.
Polite persistence, and make sure that nobody else gets served until your issue is resolved.


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## Stifster (9 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*



koconnor said:


> It's all well and good for hotels to have these terms, but what about peoples Statutory Rights then, ie Sales of Goods and Services Act?
> If an establishment was to employ these terms, wouldn't that affect my rights?


 
Care to point out any provisions in the SOGASOS Act that might apply? How about the provsion that provides for implied terms in relation to the supply of services under the same act being negatived by an express term in the agreement entered into between the parties?

People refer to that Act around like it provides absolute protection. It doesn't.


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## koconnor (11 Jan 2008)

*Re: Brendan Grace Riverside Hotel Enniscorthy 1/2h into concert fire alarm caused aba*

Update for you all:

After speaking with the Manager for most of the week, he has been given the authority to refund the money to me, in full.

I did mention the sale of goods act throughout our conversations and I guess he relayed this all back.

Thank you all for a great result.

Kevin


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