# who supplies compliance with building regulation report? builder?



## drunat (20 Apr 2013)

Hi. We are doing a kitchen extension at the moment. The engineer will be supplying structural report. I was under the impression that he will also be supplying compliance with building regulation report. Now the builder is saying that he will be doing compliance with building regulation report himself. I.e. he is choosing all materials himself and certifying compliance of materials and workmanship himself. I am not really sure what is the standard practice? Should the engineer be doing it? otherwise who is overseeing the builder? It looks like the engineer has more of advisory role but the builder picks his own materials and noone really oversees his work. Well. the engineer supposedly comes out to check each stage. Who usually supplies compliance with building regulation report?


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## lowCO2design (21 Apr 2013)

drunat said:


> Hi. We are doing a kitchen extension at the moment. The engineer will be supplying structural report. I was under the impression that he will also be supplying compliance with building regulation report. Now the builder is saying that he will be doing compliance with building regulation report himself. I.e. *he is choosing all materials himself and certifying compliance of materials and workmanship himself*.


id struggle with this





> I am not really sure what is the standard practice? Should the engineer be doing it? otherwise who is overseeing the builder? It looks like the engineer has more of advisory role but the builder picks his own materials and noone really oversees his work. Well. the engineer supposedly comes out to check each stage. *Who usually supplies compliance with building regulation report?*


an architect?


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## threebedsemi (21 Apr 2013)

The system in general, at least when an Architect and a contractor is involved, comprises two separate certifications:

(i) The Architect certifies that the building has been DESIGNED in accordance with the building regulations, and

(ii) The Contractor certifies that he has CONSTRUCTED the building in accordance with the regulations (which he will have if he constructs in accordance with the Architects drawings).

The architect would generally enclose the contractor’s certificate in his/her own at the end of the project and before issuing it to the client.
An experienced contractor will never confirm that he has designed anything in accordance with anything, and it will be noticed that a good contractor will ask for drawings of everything. The purpose of this is to transfer liability for ‘design’ to the Architect, where it rightfully belongs.

In your case:
Firstly, they are not ‘reports’, they are ‘Certificates’ or ‘Opinions on Compliance’ (I don’t mean to be pedantic, but they are different things and if you are asking for something, you should ask for it by its proper name to avoid confusion).
Secondly, ask the contractor is he certifying the design of the building as well as the materials? 
Thirdly, ask your engineers opinion. Has he been appointed to inspect the construction works as they proceed?
It sounds like you are proceeding to construction without much in the way of construction drawings or contracts in place. Proceed with upmost caution. 
www.studioplustwo.com


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## Marie (28 Jun 2013)

On the brink of restoring a 150-year-old stone cottage and attaching a new build kitchen and wet room. What the score is for the designer/self-builder in this case?  I am experienced with stone-work and will be re-rendering with lime-plaster and lime-washes.  The (cement) floor put in over flag-stones in the 1970's will be removed, foundations compatible with stone-build and with appropriate insulation set before flags restored, with enhancement of areas where wall foundations are inadequate.  I have researched the vernacular building-methods for over a decade, having spent 5 years as assistant to a restoration architect who was awarded an OBE for his initiate in restoration of an entire town in the UK.  A builder familiar with and sensitive to renovation of dry-stone cottages will (under my direction) add a compatible new-build/block-work extension (designed by me) to house kitchen.  Wet-room and lavatory will be housed in the connecting stone-wall corridor.

Who will do the 'certifications'  in this case?


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## threebedsemi (29 Jun 2013)

It sounds like you are self managing the project without an architect, technologist or engineer being involved. 
Your building project will still have to comply with planning, building regulations and perhaps health and safety legislation (refer to an earlier thread which deals with the health and safety topic).
The extent of your knowledge of current building regulation or planning law in Ireland is unclear from your post. Do you realise that the new extension will have to meet in full the requirements of the current building regulations, and that the renovation works may have to comply in part or in full with, for instance, Technical Guidance Document L (Energy Efficiency) amongst others? 
Do you require planning permission for the extension or is it exempted development? If you are upgrading an effluent treatment unit, this will require planning permission in any case (and will therefore require site characteristics tests by an engineer/technologist). Will the planning authority take the view that the cottage is no longer a 'house' in planning terms (when was it last lived in?).

What I am trying to do in the above is to point out that you should obtain professional advice before you start. There is a danger of being half way through a building project of this type and then finding out that it doesn't comply with all the regulations that it is supposed to, and then one may be faced with rework and extra expense.

In terms of certificates from professionals, it may be possible to appoint an architect or engineer at the end of the project to do one of those 'i didn't inspect during construction, but from what i can see now that its finished, it probably looks ok'.

Bottom line - I would strongly urge you to talk to someone before you start, if only to obtain clear guidance on what you will have to comply with.



www.studioplustwo.com


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## Marie (1 Jul 2013)

How long does all that take?  I get conflicting information depending on who I speak with.  Yes - you're correct.  I have not built/renovated a house in Ireland prior to this.  The dwelling is (literally!) out in the wild mountain fastnesses and the smallholding has ample space and drainage for any type of earth-work/effluent system.  The very modest intention is to have skilled conservation-standard minor repairs to the old cottage, have electricity re-instated (there is a pylon immediately adjacent, on my land) and add a small (15' x 30') cavity-wall single-story kitchen with roof-pitch complimentary to that of the cottage.  As yet I've not been able to decide between aerobic or anaerobic effluent treatment system (which, as I say, there is plenty of space for without jeopardy to man or beast, and good slope).  There is a fine well which will provide gravity-fed water-supply.  None of this (very modest) work designed (and I suppose 'project-managed') by myself can be seen by neighbours, the nearest of whom is about 2 Km away in any direction.  

If I need planning permissions and to submit proposals should I (re-) employ the engineer who gave the 'all-clear' on the structure and land-boundaries?  Who do I submit what to? Must 'Building Control' (?) be involved in a like-for-like refurbishment?  What kinds of issues might arise in this case?  

Earlier responses have raised a lot of worries.  I just want to get the work done and enjoy living and working there.


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## Docarch (1 Jul 2013)

DOHdesigns said:


> Both the architects and engineers' details get submitted to building control for approval, normally prior to works commencing on site.


 
Note that this is only applicable in the UK!


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## huskerdu (1 Jul 2013)

Marie said:


> have electricity re-instated (there is a pylon immediately adjacent, on my land)




Just to point out that the distance of the pylon may not be relevant, as it probably carries 3 phase high voltage electricity and not 220V AC that domestic houses use. 

you will need to talk to the ESB networks and find out how much work and cost is associated with getting power to your house.


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## huskerdu (1 Jul 2013)

Marie said:


> If I need planning permissions and to submit proposals should I (re-) employ the engineer who gave the 'all-clear' on the structure and land-boundaries?  Who do I submit what to? .



It it not possible for any of us to know whether you need planning permission or not. In normal circumstances an extension of 40sq m or more needs planning permission, but has already been pointed out, depending on how derelict the house is and when it was inhabited last and the guidelines for the area, the local authority may deem that you need planning permission as though you are building from stratch. 

You can apply for a pre-planning meeting with the planning office of the local authority to ask and you might want to get profesional advice from an architect who knows the area and knows how the local planning office reacts to plans like yours. 

Good luck with your plans,


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## Marie (2 Jul 2013)

huskerdu said:


> Just to point out that the distance of the pylon may not be relevant, as it probably carries 3 phase high voltage electricity and not 220V AC that domestic houses use.
> 
> you will need to talk to the ESB networks and find out how much work and cost is associated with getting power to your house.



Oh nooooooooooooooooo!   There is a long line of pylons stretching across the landscape, last one in the field directly in front of the cottage.  They're big wooden jobbies.  I'll contact ESB to establish what should be next step.  By the way do I need to arrange for builders to dig a trench for cables to bring electricity into the dwelling or is that included in what ESB charge for connection?


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## Marie (2 Jul 2013)

huskerdu said:


> It it not possible for any of us to know whether you need planning permission or not. In normal circumstances an extension of 40sq m or more needs planning permission, but has already been pointed out, depending on how derelict the house is and when it was inhabited last and the guidelines for the area, the local authority may deem that you need planning permission as though you are building from stratch.
> 
> You can apply for a pre-planning meeting with the planning office of the local authority to ask and you might want to get profesional advice from an architect who knows the area and knows how the local planning office reacts to plans like yours.
> 
> Good luck with your plans,


 
I wondered about these Pre-Planning Clinics.  Is it a situation where details of the project can be discussed and specific advice got on time-scales to granting of pp or more general 'how-to-fill-out-forms' and repetition of what's on the CoCo website?


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## huskerdu (2 Jul 2013)

You should start by reading the following basic information about planning law. 

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/planning_permission/planning_permission_general.html

Then contact your local authority about the development plan for your area

Then, get a one-to-one meeting with a local authority planner to discuss the details of your specific plan.


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## lowCO2design (3 Jul 2013)

Marie said:


> I wondered about these Pre-Planning Clinics.  Is it a situation where details of the project can be discussed and specific advice got on time-scales to granting of pp or more general 'how-to-fill-out-forms' and repetition of what's on the CoCo website?


I strongly recommend you bring an architect with sketches of what you intend to build to a pre-planning meeting of any kind ( or your archs sketches and a planning consultant in extreme cases). all too frequently people get false directions and mixed messages by not understanding the process or local development plan


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## Leo (3 Jul 2013)

You'll need planning permission before the ESB will engage to give you indicative pricing. If you're within 500m of the medium voltage network, the charges are laid out [broken link removed], otherwise they'll need to carry out a site assessment before determining what the costs are. Full details [broken link removed].


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## Marie (3 Jul 2013)

Leo said:


> You'll need planning permission before the ESB will engage to give you indicative pricing. If you're within 500m of the medium voltage network, the charges are laid out [broken link removed], otherwise they'll need to carry out a site assessment before determining what the costs are. Full details [broken link removed].



Thanks for that very useful link Leo.


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## Marie (3 Jul 2013)

lowCO2design said:


> I strongly recommend you bring an architect with sketches of what you intend to build to a pre-planning meeting of any kind ( or your archs sketches and a planning consultant in extreme cases). all too frequently people get false directions and mixed messages by not understanding the process or local development plan



Whilst completely understanding and accepting that any site _development _requires planning permission, I'm still struggling with two issues coming up here:- (a) what activity constitutes development; (b) what professional(s) need be involved in 'certifying' the standard of the work (this is what the OP asked).

Here's the position.  I could put a ladder up against the wall and fill a hod with lime-plaster and repoint some stonework.  Then I could get my pick-axe and hack out the cement some previous owner tipped over flagstones, lift them for reuse and have a professional outfit drive up to the door and pump an ecologically-sound insulating foundation with all the trimmings, then reset my flags.  I could move the ladder inside and (health and safety) on my new, smooth floor get up to the loft-space and lay sheep-wool insulation.  I could then decide to replace the single-glazed windows with double or triple-glaze.

My struggle is in trying to understand _which part of my activity in improving the warmth and comfort of my property needs to be "designed" and "sketched"_ by a plethora of experts including Quantity Surveyors, Architects, and Engineers?  Where is the tipping-point of doing (informed and experienced) D.I.Y. tip over into Planning Permission?  

The responses to the OP's question - on certification - intrigue me.  One response to my earlier post was to suggest the CoCo might consider the dwelling to be _no longer a dwelling _if it has been vacant for some time.  There is in fact no issue of change of use.......it was a dwelling/is a dwelling as I will be dwelling in it which is what _makes_ it - by definition! - a dwelling.  I will not be going to a Town Planning Department accompanied by an Architect and a Surveyor and "asking" the Planning Department if the dwelling is a dwelling.  

Now off to climb ladders, wield pick-axes and get on with life!  Thanks again Leo for the ESB link.


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## lowCO2design (4 Jul 2013)

Marie said:


> Whilst completely understanding and accepting that any site _development _requires  planning permission, I'm still struggling with two issues coming up  here:- (a) what activity constitutes development; (b) what  professional(s) need be involved in 'certifying' the standard of the  work (this is what the OP asked).


Id given up on the OP to be honest there had been a few posts since, and the OP's question,answered  in brief by me, and answered much more eloquently by threebedsemi.. so I felt we had moved one. perhaps not but then I left the forum for a few days and started reading again with:



huskerdu said:


> *It it not possible for any of us to know whether you need planning permission or not. In normal circumstances an extension of 40sq m or more needs planning permission, but has already been pointed out, depending on how derelict the house is and when it was inhabited last and the guidelines for the area, the local authority may deem that you need planning permission as though you are building from stratch. *
> 
> *You can apply for a pre-planning meeting* with the planning office of the local authority to ask and you might want to get profesional advice from an architect who knows the area and knows how the local planning office reacts to plans like yours.
> 
> Good luck with your plans,


 and i thought yeah good advice, ive given it a thousand times , the ones who listened generally had a good experience, or at least found out what they needed to know early in the process before peoples time and money had been wasted.



Marie said:


> *I wondered about these Pre-Planning Clinics.* *Is it a situation where details of the project can be discussed and specific advice got on time-scales to granting of pp or more general 'how-to-fill-out-forms' and repetition of what's on the CoCo website?*


you can discuss the weather if you want but the goal is to understadn what the planners will expect and what the issues are. problem is you will potentially leave that meeting with a completely differnt idea of what is required to say an architect.. but i love your last line and that was the give away - which prompted 


> I strongly recommend you bring an architect with sketches of what you  intend to build to a pre-planning meeting of any kind ( or your archs  sketches and a planning consultant in extreme cases). all too frequently  people get false directions and mixed messages by not understanding the  process or *local development plan*



the local development plan
the irishstatutebook
and the local authority planning website
 http://www.environ.ie/en/TGD/
and oh a chat with the planner/local eng
is all YOU need to know about to answer your questions: 




Marie said:


> (a) what activity constitutes development; (b) what professional(s) need be involved in 'certifying' the standard of the work (this is what the OP asked).
> 
> Here's the position.  I could put a ladder up against the wall and fill a hod with lime-plaster and repoint some stonework.  Then I could get my pick-axe and hack out the cement some previous owner tipped over flagstones, lift them for reuse and have a professional outfit drive up to the door and pump an ecologically-sound insulating foundation with all the trimmings, then reset my flags.  I could move the ladder inside and (health and safety) on my new, smooth floor get up to the loft-space and lay sheep-wool insulation.  I could then decide to replace the single-glazed windows with double or triple-glaze.
> 
> My struggle is in trying to understand *which part of my activity in improving the warmth and comfort of my property needs to be "designed" and "sketched" *by a plethora of experts including Quantity Surveyors, Architects, and Engineers?  Where is the tipping-point of doing (informed and experienced) D.I.Y. tip over into Planning Permission?


 nothing (once you comply with the above outlined points)





> The responses to the OP's question - on certification - intrigue me.  One response to my earlier post was to suggest the CoCo might consider the dwelling to be _no longer a dwelling _if it has been vacant for some time.  There is in fact no issue of change of use.......it was a dwelling/is a dwelling as I will be dwelling in it which is what _makes_ it - by definition! - a dwelling.


 just clarify for us - 
>   IS it derlict and 
>   what the waste water treatment system like and
>   are you infact building an extension 

if the answer is yes to any of the above start reading the points numbered above. or you could just go


> off to climb ladders, wield pick-axes and


..


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## Superman (4 Jul 2013)

Assuming house has not been abandoned, no extensions, no  treatment unit and no other policy restrictions apply (architectural conservation are, protected structure etc), then this determines if permission is required:

(h) development consisting of the carrying out of works for the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of any structure, being works which affect only the interior of the structure or which do not materially affect the external appearance of the structure so as to render the appearance inconsistent with the character of the structure or of neighbouring structures;


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