# Cost: Replace wooden ceiling between top floor and attic



## ciechalka (21 Aug 2014)

Hi All, 

if anyone of you are aware of what documents and permits will I need to replace the wooden ceiling between the first floor and the attic?
Currently, the attic is uncultivated and joists are quite weak 12cm x 4 cm. 

I would like there to do beautiful bedrooms, but this needs to joists with much greater strength. 
The house is bought on a mortgage, so I suspect that I will have to ask for permission of the Bank. But what else awaits me? needs the plans of the architect? permission from the authority of the city? 

And the next question. Has anyone realizes what might be the cost of such alterations? The whole ceiling has dimensions of 12m x 6m but interesting in that I'm only replacing the middle 6m x 4m so far as is possible Because of the fairly serious interference in the roof structure,'m only interested in a professional valuation of work construction company


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## Leo (21 Aug 2014)

Welcome to AAM.

I'm guessing what you really want to do here is an attic conversion, create a bedroom in the attic space? If so, most such conversions fall under exempted development, so no permission will be required. 

If you post in the Recommend tradesmen and suppliers forum, you will get recommendations for your location for building firms who could assess your attic and give you an estimate for the work involved.


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## twofor1 (21 Aug 2014)

ciechalka said:


> Hi All,
> 
> if anyone of you are aware of what documents and permits will I need to replace the wooden ceiling between the first floor and the attic?


 
There should be no need to replace existing joists or ceiling.

I had an attic converted, steel girders were inserted between gable and party walls front and back, from these girders new joists are suspended between existing joists and above the existing ceiling, the new attic floor is then laid and is totally independent of the existing ceiling and joists.

Google attic conversions, you will find lots of your questions answered, like here;

http://www.atticconversions.ie/FAQ/FAQ/Navigation.html


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## ciechalka (21 Aug 2014)

sincerely thank you for your quick response.

 This seems much simpler than initially assumed. It follows that if the window mount only on the garden side, the permit will not be needed


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## Guns N Roses (21 Aug 2014)

Make sure you hire a reputable Engineer to sign off on the floor construction and that he/she certifies that the works comply with Building Regulations. If you don't, you may have difficultly selling the property in the future.

Also as you are now adding a 3rd habitable floor to your property, your Building Professional (Engineer or Architect) will have to consider whether your existing stairwell needs to be upgraded to fire resisting construction in order to comply with Part B of the Regulations.


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## Branz (21 Aug 2014)

GnR spot on re the fire issues, which are often overlooked
leaflet here:
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publicatio...ng/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1657,en.pdf


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## twofor1 (22 Aug 2014)

Most attic conversions in two storey houses can never qualify as habitable unless you put in a dormer as usually they would not have the required floor to ceiling height, over I think a minimum 50% of the floor area.

While safety should of course be given due consideration, my understanding is Part B of the building regulations are not a requirement in non-habitable attic conversions, which most are.

Our attic conversion with its 3 velux windows is the biggest and brightest room in the house, 6 M x 4 M, It has a smoke alarm wired into the mains, a proper stairs, landing, door, is fully insulated, wired, heated and plumbed. In addition there is a floored storage in the eaves. It has a sofa, bean bags, pool table, tv, sound system, playstation, x box etc.

I have an architect’s cert saying the attic conversion to a non-habitable room complies with the building regulations and is exempt from the requirement to apply for a fire safety cert or planning permission.

Should we ever decide to sell, our conversion can never be called anything but storage, albeit very well equipped and accessible storage, any purchaser can just use it for storage, if that’s what they want, but I suspect most will see it for what it is.

Bearing everything in mind, we think our kids and their friends are far safer in our storage area rather than some of the other places teenagers hang out.


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## Guns N Roses (22 Aug 2014)

ciechalka said:


> I would like there to do beautiful bedrooms,



Part B defines a habitable Room as "a room used for living or sleeping purposes but does not include a kitchen having a floor area less than 6.5 sq. metres, a bathroom, toilet or shower room".

As the OP has said they want to add bedrooms to their attic space, then they must meet all the requirements of Part B.


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## twofor1 (22 Aug 2014)

I can’t argue as I am not an architect, engineer, surveyor or even involved in the building industry.

All I know is I have an attic conversion that is used for living in, I know several others who have similar attic conversions that are used as bedrooms, most including me have certs from different architects stating that they are non-habitable conversions that comply with building regulations and are exempt from the requirement to apply for a fire cert or planning permission.

I accept one could argue these conversions should not be lived in or slept in as officially anyway, they are not habitable.


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## Branz (22 Aug 2014)

Twofor1
Do the certs say that: "is exempt from the requirement to apply for a fire safety cert or planning permission".

The reason I ask is that I understand that Domestic dwellings are exempt from requiring a fire cert.
from here 
http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/BuildingStandards/
"....Requiring a Fire Safety Certificate for most buildings, with the exception of houses and individual apartments...."

The habitable versus non-habitable discussion is to a certain extent missing the point here: the issue is making the OP and others aware of the fire issues in a 3 storey house.

Any advice I give in this area is, habitable or not, meet the fire requirements.
Most folk follow it, the most common example is the top hinged velux with the bottom sill low enough and the hooks for the rope/rope ladder


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## twofor1 (23 Aug 2014)

ircoha said:


> Do the certs say that: "is exempt from the requirement to apply for a fire safety cert or planning permission".
> 
> The habitable versus non-habitable discussion is to a certain extent missing the point here: the issue is making the OP and others aware of the fire issues in a 3 storey house.


 
I have a completed form 2;  http://conveyancinghandbook.lawsociety.ie/App03/A3-24.pdf


Question 4 Fire Safety; I am of the opinion that*;* 

The architect wrote; The relevant building or works is exempt from any requirement for the making of an application for a fire safety certificate …………..

Question 5 Commencement;

The architect wrote; The relevant building or works is exempt from any requirement requiring the service of a commencement notice by virtue of being exempted development for the Local Government Planning Development Act 1963-1991………………………..


I agree, the OP and others should be aware of and take seriously, fire safety issues in three storey houses, even if the house, like mine and thousands of others, are not officially three storey houses.


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