# ESB seeks 24 ecar Ambassadors to drive an ecar for 4 months



## Brendan Burgess (4 Feb 2014)

[broken link removed]

ESB is looking for 24 ecar ambassadors, across a wide variety of ages,  lifestyles, occupations and commuting patterns, as well as organisations  to get involved in this year's trial.  The selected ecar ambassadors will trial one of a selection of electric  vehicles such as the BMW i3, Citroen C Zero, Mitsubishi iMiEV,  Mitsubishi Outlander Plug-in Hybrid SUV, Nissan Euro LEAF, Renault ZOE,  or a Renault Kangoo Z.E. commercial electric van.

The ambassadors will be able to charge the electric vehicle at home or  in the workplace at a dedicated ecar charge point. For longer commutes,  they can use the smart public charging network located across the  country.


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## fraggle (4 Feb 2014)

I hope I can get this. I have already run cars on veggie oil, and had one of the first hybrids and was about to get 75mpg on my commute and a best mpg of 95. I am slo passionate about a sustainable approach to life.

My commute would be ideal for an electric car and there is already a charging point at work.


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## amgd28 (4 Feb 2014)

Slightly off-topic but can anybody confirm what the VRT is on a fully electric car? I thought that it was zero, but someone told me that that was only temporary?
Also the same with the 5000 grant? Is this still in place?

I'd be interested in getting a Tesla model S (they are only going on sale this year in the UK), so would be a huge benefit if VRT on import was 0%. CAn anyone clarify?


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## huskerdu (4 Feb 2014)

According to citizensinformation, the exemption on VRT for electric cars ended last year

"There is an exemption from VRT for series production electric vehicles until 31 December 2013. "
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...ng_or_selling_a_vehicle/buying_a_new_car.html


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## Deas (4 Feb 2014)

I was listening to the ESB spokesperson on the radio this morning.  He explained that there are charge points dotted around the country - some of which have the dual charging facilities - quick and normal.  The quick charge takes 20 minutes.  A min. of two charges from Dublin to Cork.  Based on this alone I can't see the e-car as a sustainable solution.


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## Leo (4 Feb 2014)

amgd28 said:


> Slightly off-topic but can anybody confirm what the VRT is on a fully electric car? I thought that it was zero, but someone told me that that was only temporary?
> Also the same with the 5000 grant? Is this still in place?
> 
> I'd be interested in getting a Tesla model S (they are only going on sale this year in the UK), so would be a huge benefit if VRT on import was 0%. CAn anyone clarify?



The last few budgets have extended the relief year by year, so Citizens Information is out of date. From Revenue.ie:



> The period of VRT relief for Electric, Plug-in Hybrid Electric, and Hybrid Electric vehicles has been extended until December 2014. The rates of each of the reliefs remain unchanged.


Detail on the actual reliefs [broken link removed].

SEAI are still offering [broken link removed] of up to €5k up to the end of December 2014, but that grant is accessed via registered dealers only. A UK purchase won't qualify. Another problem even if you found an Irish dealer who'll bring one in, to qualify, a car must have a Euro NCAP Star Rating of at least 3, the Tesla hasn't been tested.

So on a Tesla import, VRT 14% of the OMSP minus the €5k relief. OMSP will be a matter for Revenue to guess at, but even if they go with the expected UK price of ~£82k (which we all know they won't), you'll be paying €9k VRT after the relief. 

What you do when battery life starts to fade will be a problem without dealer support here.


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## callybags (4 Feb 2014)

There are a lot of people who have been driving for years, yet never had the need to go from Dublin to Cork (or similar journies).


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## Brendan Burgess (4 Feb 2014)

I think that is the point of the study.

If you live in Dublin and rarely go outside Dublin, you should be able to operate one of these fine. 

If you travel at random around the country, they might not be suitable. 

I don't think I would like to take two refuelling stops of 20 minutes each on the way to Cork and again on the way back. 

Brendan


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## tallpaul (4 Feb 2014)

callybags said:


> There are a lot of people who have been driving for years, yet never had the need to go from Dublin to Cork (or similar journies).


 

I think the point is that with a conventional petrol or diesel car, once you fill up beforehand, you can get to pretty much anywhere on the island without stopping. Having to stop and least twice on a straightforward motorway journey of less than three hours is farcical. If you wanted to drive from Dublin to Donegal, how many times would one have to stop and would there be any charging points along the way. I would think that it would not be very enjoyable having to nurse the battery of your eCar for 50 kilometres in search of a charging point ...


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## callybags (4 Feb 2014)

tallpaul said:


> I think the point is that with a conventional petrol or diesel car, once you fill up beforehand, you can get to pretty much anywhere on the island without stopping. Having to stop and least twice on a straightforward motorway journey of less than three hours is farcical. If you wanted to drive from Dublin to Donegal, how many times would one have to stop and would there be any charging points along the way. I would think that it would not be very enjoyable having to nurse the battery of your eCar for 50 kilometres in search of a charging point ...


 
But that's my point.

Different horses for different courses.

You never hear anyone complaining that there are not enough secure bicycle sheds for rest stops on the road from Dublin to Cork.


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## amgd28 (4 Feb 2014)

Leo,
Thanks a lot for your very informative post. I guess I'll just have to wait a bit longer for the Tesla!
Given they appear to have best car safety record in the US, I would thi,k they will fly the NCAP but of course they need to complete the tests.
With regard to range, one charge on the higher spec gets you 300 miles which would cover any journey within Ireland. That's why I'll wait for the Tesla. Have no interest in the other electric cars...


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## Leo (5 Feb 2014)

No prob amgd28. As you say, I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they complete the test if they are serious about the European market. It certainly looks like an interesting prospect.


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## kbie (5 Feb 2014)

a Tesla model S (they are only going on sale this year in the UK)
[/QUOTE]

Looks a lovely car

http://www.teslamotors.com/en_GB/models/features#/performance


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## losttheplot (5 Feb 2014)

Make sure you get a two pin to three pin adapter for the plug


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## PatMacG (6 Feb 2014)

I've had a look at the specs of the cars (and one van) in the promotion. The manufacturer-specified ranges, up to 200kms, and the quick-charge times, as low as 20-30mins for 80% charge, are very impressive. These improvements brought about in just a single generation of e-cars augers well for their futures as 1st choice modes of transport.


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## Leo (6 Feb 2014)

PatMacG said:


> These improvements brought about in just a single generation of e-cars augers well for their futures as 1st choice modes of transport.



We need to see a lot more data in terms of real world battery life and replacement costs before making that jump I think. To address these concerns, some manufacturers have introduced battery leasing options, where they will replace the battery when its usable life is over. Remember battery performance will gradually degrade all the time, so the car you buy today with a 200km range may only have a 150km range in a couple of years. 

When you factor in the battery leasing options, or price of replacing the battery after its usable life, running costs are generally comparable to current diesel models. So with significantly less range and charge times, there's still a way to go.


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## STEINER (6 Feb 2014)

I entered my wife for selection for this.

I  normally gloss over motoring pieces, but yesterday as I sat in a waiting room, I reached out and read the free Irish Independent.  The BMW i3 was reviewed in this link [broken link removed]

also, in the Irish Times  http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...nd-range-but-stalls-on-price-1.1679368?page=1


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## AlbacoreA (7 Feb 2014)

I don't know why small diesel hybrid aren't more popular.


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## Slim (7 Feb 2014)

Did anyone get an acknowledgement email? I didn't!


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## AlbacoreA (7 Feb 2014)

Yup shortly after I registered.


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## PatMacG (7 Feb 2014)

AlbacoreA said:


> I don't know why small diesel hybrid aren't more popular.


I find this puzzling too. 

Webasto (for one) make small diesel engines used as pre-heaters and generators in expensive diesel cars. They, or some other form of pre-heating or parking heater are used on cars in Scandanavia where public plug-in points are common-place for decades.


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## PatMacG (7 Feb 2014)

Leo said:


> ...  there's still a way to go.


No issue with any of the points you make Leo.

Just for me, a dyed-in-the-wool ICE-ist, I'm amazed at the strides ecars have made in just a single generation outside the R&D labs.

My head is still back in the days when our milk was delivered by the Merville Dairies man in his "electric" milk-float, like the one featured in the famous Father Ted episode.

I'd love a chance to get behind the wheel of an ESB ecar for a few months to help me appreciate them. Who knows, I might even become an ecar evangelist and help move people away from the devil's fuel that courses (sluggishly) through my veins.


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## Leo (10 Feb 2014)

PatMacG said:


> Just for me, a dyed-in-the-wool ICE-ist, I'm amazed at the strides ecars have made in just a single generation outside the R&D labs.



Speaking of which...


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## PatMacG (11 Feb 2014)

Leo said:


> Speaking of which...



Thanks, I'd missed the news item 

Looking through EV (electric vehicle) user forums in the US and the UK, the greatest concentration of perceived problems seems to be on battery life and its variability. 

Hills, cross-winds, time-of-day, temperature, accessories (audio, phone-chargers, video for back-seat passengers)  and rain are the principal additional drains on battery life between charges. These demands are  in addition to supplying motive power to the EV and can, reportedly, catch even the most careful driver out. 

In places like sunny California, the solution can be as simple as adding a solar panel to the roof to ensure the permanently engaged A/C doesn't gobble up all the available charge. That solution probably isn't ideal in an Irish "summer".

A user-generated problem contributing to short battery life is the apparently irresistible challenge of winning the "traffic-lights Grand Prix". Like diesel-engined cars, EVs have massive torque (turning power) available from low revolutions and can "smoke" a lot of ICEs away from the lights, but the effect on battery life is catastrophic.

Hopefully the excellent work in Limerick can help develop a battery technology that improves on the current (pun intended) state-of-the-art.


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## werner (11 Feb 2014)

For what its worth... I had great fun driving a relatives Nissan Leaf in the UK some time ago for a week or two . Can I mention MPG? (Should be miles per Watt or something )

Anyway after a full charge I was lucky to get 60 - 65 miles of mixed driving and if I had the air con on & de-mister with headlamps (normal for our wintry weather... most of the rest of the year as well  ) it was like turning an old car battery on its side and pouring out the battery acid with the power. The battery power dropped so fast.

It was a nice hatchback car to drive with lots of torque and reasonably fast very quiet accelleration in the normal speed ranges but a total joke if you had to rely on it for ordinary day to day use.  I was seriously caught out one evening as I had the car charging and I ended up having to get a taxi....

If all you do is a handful of miles per day it might be of some expensive use but if you do any mileage its useless.


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Feb 2014)

Are the batteries easy to put in and out?  or are they huge? 

Could you carry a spare charged battery with you?


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## ali (11 Feb 2014)

I drove one of these as part of the ESB commercial ambassadors and it was very comfortable, surprisingly fast and the only issue was I kept turning it on twice as you can't hear it once it starts - no noise idling but a slight whine when going fast. Used to constantly be looking around for distant sirens.


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## fraggle (11 Feb 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Are the batteries easy to put in and out?  or are they huge?
> 
> Could you carry a spare charged battery with you?



Not feasible to do!

Here is a Nissan LEAF battery:


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## Brendan Burgess (11 Feb 2014)

Wow

So it's really a small car mounted on a big battery?

What size are the batteries for the bigger cars?


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## PatMacG (11 Feb 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Are the batteries easy to put in and out?  or are they huge?
> 
> Could you carry a spare charged battery with you?


Unfortunately, swapping batteries is not currently a "user-accessible option" or DIY job.

Carrying spare batteries based on current technology would have an enormous weight penalty, assuming you could swap them in the first place,

Ideally, in EV Utopia, spare batteries would be easily swapped and would be available at shopping centres, train stations, petrol filling stations, airports, AA rescue vans, etc.

The ultimate would be user-swappable, portable fuel cells capable of being changed / charged in as little (or less) time as it takes to top-up the fuel  in your current ICE car.


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## Leo (12 Feb 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Wow
> 
> So it's really a small car mounted on a big battery?
> 
> What size are the batteries for the bigger cars?



The batteries usually make up around 25% of the total car weight. The cost of manufacturing the Leaf battery is 50% that of the entire car.

Another issue for the current lithium ion batteries is that consistently using the fast charge option will reduce the battery life to 3-5 years.

Reports from the US indicate that Leaf users are reporting up to 20-30 degredation in battery capacity after the first year. The only replacement option in the US currently is a monthly rental scheme where you lease the replacement battery for $100 a month. So long as you keep up the $100 a month, they'll replace the batteries once capacity drops to 70%.


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## Brendan Burgess (18 Feb 2014)

Will Goodbody of RTE has written of his experience with ecars here

*[broken link removed]*


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## PatMacG (19 Feb 2014)

Brendan Burgess said:


> Will Goodbody of RTE has written of his experience with ecars here ...


A good balanced review I think.

It's a pity the new e-Golf wasn't available to him. This seems to have an advantage over the ESB's list of cars in terms of range / battery life. I haven't managed to find a review yet but VW claims it has a greater range than other cars in its class, 12.7 kwh/100 kms consumption

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2014/02/20140215-egolf.html

"_The liquid-cooled lithium-ion battery accounts for 701 pounds (318 kg) of the e-Golf model’s 3,090-pound (1,402 kg) curb weight. It comprises 264 individual prismatic cells, which are integrated into 27 modules (each with six or twelve cells). Collectively, the cells have a nominal rating of 323 volts, with an overall capacity of 24.2 kWh.

Depending on the nature of the route, driving style and load, the range is between 130 and 190 kilometers (81 and 188 miles_ [should read 118 miles. Thanks Purple]_). More specifically, Volkswagen says, under the NEDC cycle, the range is 190 km (188 miles _[should read 118 miles. Thanks Purple]_); practical range according to Volkswagen is the 130-190 km spread; and in winter operation, the range is expected to be 80-120 km (50-75 miles)._"


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## Purple (19 Feb 2014)

190km is 118 miles


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## PatMacG (19 Feb 2014)

Fixed the wrong sums. Thanks


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## PatMacG (20 Feb 2014)

*Will Apple help EV / ecar battery shortages?*

The world has a limited supply of rechargeable Lithium-Ion batteries, used to power lap-tops and ecars, and is unable to increase production capacity, but might a collaboration between Apple and Tesla alleviate the situation?

All supplies of LiOn batteries destined for automotive use are reportedly being allocated to new car production, leaving dealer requirements for breakdowns and repairs on the back burner, with consequential customer dissatisfaction

In this article there is speculation that Tim Cook, Apple's CEO, Apple's acquisition specialist Adrian Perica and Elon Musk, Tesla's CEO might actually undertake this significant task to their mutual benefit.

Apparently Apple has US$160bn ready to invest in new ventures or in new acquisitions and the ecar / EV market may be one of them.

Any thoughts folks?


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## AlbacoreA (20 Feb 2014)

I wonder about how environmentally friendly all this battery tech is. Are they solving one problem by potentially causing another.


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## Leo (21 Feb 2014)

According to a Ford/University of Michigan study, there's enough Lithium reserves to meet perceived demand until 2100. Not sure what happens after that...

The most significant lithium reserves are in South America and China, where methods used aren't always very friendly.


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## roker (21 Feb 2014)

The charging point that I saw recently is in an out of the way place in our town, I saw it by chance taking the kids to the play park, I would think you could use up valuable energy looking for the charging points


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## so-crates (22 Feb 2014)

Or waste a teensy bit of energy checking this map first roker 
[broken link removed]


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## PatMacG (19 Mar 2014)

*ecar insurance and support*

With the ESB and car manufacturers joining together to look  for Ambassadors for "ecars", how are motoring services organisations, both the roadside rescue, technical assessment and advice teams, and insurance services positioning themselves to cope with this new emerging automttive  technology?

I emailed the list of questions below to a major motoring organisation and some insurance companies on 11/02/2014.  I have yet to receive a single answer to any question posed.


 Q1. If I drive an "ecar" / EV will my insurance cover be different to that on my current 1.9 turbo diesel?
 Why ask the question, surely it’s much of a muchness?
 Not in my view. In the event of a collision, panels, drive-trains, batteries and other components unique to ecars are likely to be scarcer than those for “normal” cars and thus more expensive to replace. I see this pushing up the price of premiums on ecars in the short-term. Result: higher collision-damage / comprehensive insurance costs.
 The other side of the coin is that with the perception of reduced range and outright speed and with limited public re-charging points available, your shiny new ecar is unlikely to be a target for car-thieves, in my opinion. They are far less likely to be targeted by thrill-seeking, opportunist thieves or robbers in need of a getaway car. Result: Lower theft insurance costs.
 I’m not sure what percentage of car fires are electrical in origin, but the likelihood is that all-electric ecars may be more at risk of conflagration in accidents than ICEs. Result: Higher fire insurance costs.

 
 Q2. Can I take out a rescue package for my ecar / EV? If I can, what will it cover?
 Q3. What independent advice can you offer would-be buyers of EVs?
 Q4. Can your technical personnel check the mechanical / electrical reliability of an EV / ecar?
 Q5. I have a few more questions. If I need to address them to someone else, could you please direct me to that person?
My answers to Q1 are purely speculative.

Can anyone fill in the blanks on the remaining questions or indeed care to elucidate on any of my answers above?

Thanks, Pat McG


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## Leo (19 Mar 2014)

Out of curiosity, I filled in an online insurance quotation for a Nissan Leaf, and a similar spec and price Nissan Note. After entering all the details for the Leaf, I was passed on to the page of a specialist insurer whose primary business seems to come from young drivers with little or no experience, or those with driving convictions! So I filled in all the details there, but even their system wouldn't provide a quote.

Anyone reading this actually driving an EV? What are your insurance premiums like? 

I've a feeling economic write-offs will be far more common with EVs due to the cost of replacing batteries.


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