# Accountant fees



## funkylady (9 Nov 2007)

i was wondering how much an a/c should charge i am new in buisness i am doing the books, vat returns myself
any ideas
funkylady


----------



## TripleA (9 Nov 2007)

You would need to expand further on your situation. 

For starters is it a Limited Company or Sole Trader? What is the level of transactions and the turnover?

its very difficult to give an accurate quote without seeing the books or having a better knowledge of your business.


----------



## funkylady (9 Nov 2007)

i am sole trader in retail i am hoping a 70,000 turnover

regards
funky


----------



## TripleA (9 Nov 2007)

I have sent you a pm for further details and an approximate estimate.


----------



## rabbit (9 Nov 2007)

if your turnover is 70,000 per annumn, take out the vat and cost of sales ...depends on your margins / is it a service or retail type business etc...maybe you make 10 or 20 k per year gross profit....will your accountants take ten per cent of your annual gross profit on you ?  Worth getting a quote or two.   I know of one business last year where the gross profit was about 25,000 and the accountants took nearly a fifth of that - robbers !


----------



## z103 (9 Nov 2007)

Certainly get a few quotes. The quotes we got varied wildly and were;

1. €3000 - €4000
2. €1600
3. €750

Exactly the same specification for all three.


----------



## extopia (10 Nov 2007)

Ask for a personal recommendation from a person or business organisation you trust.

But realistically, the amount should not be based on a percentage of your turnover or profit. Would you expect your accountant to work for free (or even pay you) in a year when you made a loss?


----------



## z109 (11 Nov 2007)

I agree that it should not be a percentage of turnover. I am in the same position you are with a slightly higher turnover and pay about 1050 incl vat.

A small firm is probably better for your needs than a large one.

Make sure they can do ROS filings (you will need this if you haven't already filed this year to make the deadline of 15 November). Note, you are leaving it late for this year!


----------



## webtax (11 Nov 2007)

yoganmahew said:


> Note, you are leaving it late for this year!



OP is new in business so will be ok for this year


----------



## z109 (11 Nov 2007)

webtax said:


> OP is new in business so will be ok for this year


Apologies, missed that bit - yes, they will not have to file until next October/November.


----------



## rabbit (11 Nov 2007)

leghorn said:


> Certainly get a few quotes. The quotes we got varied wildly and were;
> 
> 1. €3000 - €4000
> 2. €1600
> ...


 
Go for the 750 one then.    I myself and many other have found you do not get what you pay for when it comes to accountancy fees.....lets face it, there are more than a few chancers in the accountancy profession charging huge fees for not that much work.


----------



## jem (11 Nov 2007)

remember the old saying pay peanuts.....


----------



## rabbit (11 Nov 2007)

pay coconuts and contribute to the accountants new mercedes / villa in the sun / investment portfolio


----------



## z103 (11 Nov 2007)

> Go for the 750 one then. I myself and many other have found you do not get what you pay for when it comes to accountancy fees.....lets face it, there are more than a few chancers in the accountancy profession charging huge fees for not that much work.


We do all our own bookkeeping. Just needed someone to put the data into accounts production and make the return.
(we did go for the €750 one)

What we have noticed in the past is that at it gets closer to the deadline, fees can certainly go up.


----------



## funkylady (11 Nov 2007)

my husband paid €2500 this year the a/c does his vat every 2 months 
he only invoices about 4 people every month ,and he does, the reciepts and year endings i think its alot he was charged,
what do you think


----------



## Joe1234 (11 Nov 2007)

yoganmahew said:


> Apologies, missed that bit - yes, they will not have to file until next October/November.



No.  Under commencement rules the 2007 return (assuming trade began in 2007) and the 2008 return need not be submitted until October 2009.

Preliminary tax may have to be paid next year.


----------



## Joe1234 (11 Nov 2007)

funkylady said:


> i am doing the books, vat returns myself



Bear in mind that this may not necessarily cost less.  The accountant might actually have more work to decipher your figures and workings. No offence intended!   Get a quote for both you doing the vat erc and the accountant doing it too.  Weigh up the difference and see if it would be more advantageous to let the accountant do everything.


----------



## TripleA (11 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> I know of one business last year where the gross profit was about 25,000 and the accountants took nearly a fifth of that - robbers !


 
Rabbit some of your comments really irk me. Like the one above for instance. What a ridiculous comment! By that you are implying if a company makes a loss that there should be no charge? or if a company makes €1m maybe a €100K would be an acceptable charge?

You should really think about what you are saying before writting it. In this thread alone you have made several sweeping negative statements about the accountancy profession. 

People use this site in order to obtain help and assistance. Your comments are neither helpful or useful.


----------



## rabbit (12 Nov 2007)

TripleA said:


> Rabbit some of your comments really irk me. Like the one above for instance. What a ridiculous comment! By that you are implying if a company makes a loss that there should be no charge? or if a company makes €1m maybe a €100K would be an acceptable charge?


 
Do not take my quote out of context TripleA.   What I also posted , in reply to the original poster who posted a valid question,and who had a turnover of 70k  , was " if your turnover is 70,000 per annumn, take out the vat and cost of sales ...depends on your margins / is it a service or retail type business etc...maybe you make 10 or 20 k per year gross profit....will your accountants take ten per cent of your annual gross profit on you ? Worth getting a quote or two."  I never suggested if a company made a loss there should be no charge....show me an accountant who would work for no charge.   I have noticed, however, over several decades in business, some accountants who seem to charge more when their client is "in the money".   Another poster , leghorn,  " noticed in the past is that at it gets closer to the deadline, fees can certainly go up."   An interesting point he/she makes.  That is the beauty of this site. I would remind you, Triple A, people use this site in order to obtain help and assistance.


----------



## rabbit (12 Nov 2007)

funkylady said:


> my husband paid €2500 this year the a/c does his vat every 2 months
> he only invoices about 4 people every month ,and he does, the reciepts and year endings i think its alot he was charged,
> what do you think


VAT every 2 months is very easy to do, especially if your husband only invoices about 4 people a month.   I personally used to do mine every 2 months for many years.    Assuming there are not many purchases either, he could do this return in about 15 minutes or less every 2 months I would say, once he gets the hang of it.   His sales ledger, of about 36 entries per year, would not take much work either.   I know of one accountant who charged 700 euro for half an hours work, so that puts the 2500 euro in perspective.  Its worth getting a three or more quotes.  They can vary greatly.   A newly qualified accountant , hungry + setting up in practice, should still be able to do the job , and may be cheaper than an older, established firm. You would shop around to buy a tank of petrol , why not on other costs ?


----------



## Graham_07 (12 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> the accountants took nearly a fifth of that - robbers !


 


rabbit said:


> lets face it, there are more than a few chancers in the accountancy profession charging huge fees for not that much work.


 


rabbit said:


> pay coconuts and contribute to the accountants new mercedes / villa in the sun / investment portfolio


 


rabbit said:


> some accountants who seem to charge more when their client is "in the money".


 
Do I detect a slight dislike or possibly fear of accountants ? Help is available here :-


----------



## ubiquitous (12 Nov 2007)

leghorn said:


> What we have noticed in the past is that at it gets closer to the deadline, fees can certainly go up.


Is that a surprise? The basic laws of supply and demand would show how in all business sectors, trades and professions, emergency service costs more - not least because of extra staff overtime etc. Look at Woodies DIY with their high prices and long opening hours for a good example



rabbit said:


> ....show me an accountant who would work for no charge.



And I suppose you work for free as well 



rabbit said:


> A newly qualified accountant , hungry + setting up in practice, should still be able to do the job


Fyi, newly-qualified accountants are not allowed practice until they have accumulated a number of years of post-qualification experience.
.


----------



## rabbit (12 Nov 2007)

We are not talking about "emergency" services -the other poster wrote that he/she "noticed in the past is that at it gets closer to the deadline, fees can certainly go up."

To answer your second point, no I do not work for free, but I do not charge 700 an hour either, or quarter that even.

An yes, FYI, 
_"A newly qualified accountant , hungry + setting up in practice, should still be able to do the job "    Filling in a vat return is not rocket science, especially with only the 4 customers per vat period the other poster was talking about._


----------



## ubiquitous (12 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> We are not talking about "emergency" services -the other poster wrote that he/she "noticed in the past is that at it gets closer to the deadline, fees can certainly go up."


My point still stands regardless of you definition of what is or is not an "emergency". If you want a product or service when demand exceeds supply, and/or urgently, be prepared to pay a higher price - regardless of the business sector.



rabbit said:


> To answer your second point, no I do not work for free, but I do not charge 700 an hour either, or quarter that even.



..but if your employer or customer was willing to quadruple the rate they were paying you, you would refuse on a point of principle?




rabbit said:


> An yes, FYI,
> _"A newly qualified accountant , hungry + setting up in practice, should still be able to do the job "    Filling in a vat return is not rocket science, especially with only the 4 customers per vat period the other poster was talking about._



 You missed my point, newly qualified accountants are not allowed to set up in practice, regardless of whether or not they are technically competent to do vat returns.


----------



## thebiz (12 Nov 2007)

used http://www.mooreandco.ie

They did my accounts for 350 as a startup price.
Give them a call.


----------



## jem (12 Nov 2007)

what exactly did they do for €350???


----------



## ubiquitous (12 Nov 2007)

thebiz said:


> used http://www.mooreandco.ie
> 
> They did my accounts for 350 as a startup price.
> Give them a call.



This is as meaningless as saying. "Go to Joe Bloggs Motors. He only charged me €2,000 for a car."


----------



## rabbit (12 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> My point still stands regardless of you definition of what is or is not an "emergency". If you want a product or service when demand exceeds supply, and/or urgently, be prepared to pay a higher price - regardless of the business sector.


So accountants can charge more in Sept or October than in May or June, because of revenue tax deadlines ?   And its ok for an accountant to charge 700 euro per hour in fees ?


----------



## rabbit (12 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> This is as meaningless as saying. "Go to Joe Bloggs Motors. He only charged me €2,000 for a car."


 
What has Joe Bloggs Motors got to do with it ?   At least he would not do a few hours work repairing someones car and then charge 20,000 euro, would he ?   Do not confuse the rotten apples in the car industry barrell with those in the accountancy barrell.


----------



## Graham_07 (13 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> So accountants can charge more in Sept or October than in May or June, because of revenue tax deadlines ? And its ok for an accountant to charge 700 euro per hour in fees ?


 

1) This €700 per hour has become something of a crusade with you. I can assure you that most high-street accountants , running average practice, are NOT earning anything remotely like this for normal accountancy/taxation work. Believe me . There may be a few situations as you described but they are NOT TYPICAL. There are also situations where spending €700 p h may save so much more that it is more than well worth it. A client of mine recently paid €1,750+VAT for 5 hours ( €350 hr ) for one of the best tax minds in the country. It saved the client over €100,000. Enough said. 

2)We notify all clients well in advance of the deadlines. We give them a time limit by which we need the records in able to give us enough time to get the work done. We DO NOT charge extra just because its the busy time. The client's agreed fee is just that, whether the work is done in January or October. Now, if someone approached me the 3rd week in October with a rush job and expected me to drop everything and do it and I had to work beyond normal business hours ( which incidentally are usually way more than 8 per day ) . Then I do not consider a fee based on that additional out of normal time to be unreasonable. No more than anyone working overtime would.


----------



## Graham_07 (13 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> What has Joe Bloggs Motors got to do with it ? At least he would not do a few hours work repairing someones car and then charge 20,000 euro, would he ? Do not confuse the rotten apples in the car industry barrell with those in the accountancy barrell.


 

Ubiquitous is correct. Someone saying 
"They did my accounts for 350 as a startup price." 

is utterly meaningless unless one is possessed of substantially more information to be able to decide whether, in the circumstances, that reflected a fair price for the work done. The analogy with J B Motors hits the nail right on the head IMO. 

And as for confusing barrells, why not compare them. There are rotten apples in all walks of life but that doesn't mean we should tar everyone in that walk of life with the same brush. I know someone who recently paid €60 to have "free AVG" put on a computer by a "techie". Yeah right. (took me less than 10 mins to do it) Does that mean all such IT people are chancers? I don't think so.


----------



## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> And its ok for an accountant to charge 700 euro per hour in fees ?


Rabbit, where did you get it into your head that accountants charge 700 euro per hour? The actual rate for a qualified, experienced practice accountant at partner level is in my experience between a quarter and a fifth of that - in fact not much more on an hourly basis than a senior mechanic would charge for repairing a car or a tradesman would charge for a callout. 

You seem to have some special grievance against accountants and  the fees they charge. I don't know if you get equally upset about the fees charged by auctioneers or solicitors, both of whose average per hour rates would usually greatly exceed those charged by accountants. All auctioneers and most solicitors routinely charge % fees even when the time spent on the work is small.


----------



## thebiz (13 Nov 2007)

jem said:


> what exactly did they do for €350???



I did the bookkeeping and my vat returns
they aduited my books and filed my 06 tax return and prelim tax for 07

This thread reaks of assssses


----------



## Graham_07 (13 Nov 2007)

thebiz said:


> > I did the bookkeeping and my vat returns
> > they aduited my books and filed my 06 tax return and prelim tax for 07
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## rabbit (13 Nov 2007)

Graham_07 said:


> thebiz said:
> 
> 
> > That was an excellent price for any sole trader returns, however as you said in your OP that this was a "startup price" I assume you have an estimate of the likely 2007 fees.
> ...


----------



## rabbit (13 Nov 2007)

Graham_07 said:


> 1)  We DO NOT charge extra just because its the busy time. The client's agreed fee is just that, whether the work is done in January or October.


 

earlier " ubiquitous" wrote  "If you want a product or service when demand exceeds supply, and/or urgently, be prepared to pay a higher price - regardless of the business sector."    Obviously this reinforces the importance of shopping around / getting quotations etc when it comes to accountants.


----------



## Graham_07 (13 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> earlier " ubiquitous" wrote "If you want a product or service when demand exceeds supply, and/or urgently, be prepared to pay a higher price - regardless of the business sector." Obviously this reinforces the importance of shopping around / getting quotations etc when it comes to accountants.


 
This applies to ALL services, not just accountants. If you want a plumber on a christmas morning to fix a burst pipe then I hardly imagine you'd expect to pay flat rates, I certainly wouldn't. Rather than continuing accountant bashing, as pleasant as it may seem to some, rather focus on the core  issue... if one needs a service, any service, then shop around, get the price which fits your need bearing in mind price and quality of service and what needs to be done and then decide accordingly.


----------



## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> earlier " ubiquitous" wrote  "If you want a product or service when demand exceeds supply, and/or urgently, be prepared to pay a higher price - regardless of the business sector."    Obviously this reinforces the importance of shopping around / getting quotations etc when it comes to accountants.



Indeed it does. When you think about it, it also reinforces the difficulty of properly "shopping around / getting quotations etc" if the customer waits until the last minute before doing anything about their accounts & tax returns needs and then expects instant service from accountants at the height of the tax deadline season.

Btw, leghorn's initial observation that "as it gets closer to the deadline, fees can certainly go up" is borne out by the following thread 
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=66821 which indicates that many accountants have a (not unjustified) policy of turning away all new business during the tax deadline season. It isn't surprising then that other accountants (who keep their doors open to new clients during the busy period)  can command higher fees from customers who are willing to pay for "rush-hour" service. 

Remember, nobody is forcing customers to pay for such a service. They have several options; they are free to go elsewhere; they can prepare their own returns; or they can simply leave their tax returns until after the deadline and end up paying penalties to the Revenue, and moving up a notch on the Revenue's Revenue Audit risk-profiling system. 

If they take the latter option, the cost of the late filing penalties would almost always exceed any fee premium they would have paid to the accountant (that is, if they had found one in the first instance). The potential cost (in time and/or money) of an audit would dwarf even the most excessive fee.


----------



## rabbit (13 Nov 2007)

Graham_07 said:


> This applies to ALL services, not just accountants. If you want a plumber on a christmas morning to fix a burst pipe then I hardly imagine you'd expect to pay flat rates,


We are not talking about Xmas morning accountants.  God know what they would charge to work then !    
At least Graham 07 writes " We DO NOT charge extra just because its the busy time. The client's agreed fee is just that, whether the work is done in January or October.", so like I said not all accountants are the same. The fee you end up paying may not necessarily depend on their mood / how much money you have / if its a start-up business or not etc.


----------



## rabbit (13 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Indeed it does. When you think about it, it also reinforces the difficulty of properly "shopping around / getting quotations etc"


Exactly.   Most business people I know have ended up being billed / just paying an ever increasing amount each year.


----------



## ubiquitous (13 Nov 2007)

...which is 100% down to pure, naked greed and has nothing to do with ever-increasing staff costs and other overheads 

Name me three labour-intensive service sectors in the Irish economy that have not experienced sustained year-on-year price increases over the past 5-10 years and I'll buy you a pint


----------



## rabbit (14 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> ...which is 100% down to pure, naked greed and has nothing to do with ever-increasing staff costs and other overheads


 
Maybe not just 100% greed on the part of certain accountants - after all their luxury foreign property villas , investment portfolio, new top of the range cars etc has to be funded somehow.   Shure why should they not charge thousands for very little work ?


----------



## ubiquitous (14 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> Maybe not just 100% greed on the part of certain accountants - after all their luxury foreign property villas , investment portfolio, new top of the range cars etc has to be funded somehow.   Shure why should they not charge thousands for very little work ?



well, if your accountant enjoys all their luxury foreign property villas , investment portfolio, new top of the range cars etc and charges you thousands for very little work, there is nothing to stop you going elsewhere...once you make your move well ahead of the filing deadline rush, of course


----------



## webtax (14 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> Maybe not just 100% greed on the part of certain accountants - after all their luxury foreign property villas , investment portfolio, new top of the range cars etc has to be funded somehow.   Shure why should they not charge thousands for very little work ?



unlike many professions, there is no restriction of entry for persons wishing to train as accountants and also, there is no shortage of firms for clients to choose from. why not become one yourself if you think they have it so easy? 

maybe the accountant with the investment portfolio & top of the range cars has them because he is good at his job and work hard to get to his position???


----------



## rabbit (15 Nov 2007)

webtax said:


> maybe the accountant with the investment portfolio & top of the range cars has them because he is good at his job and work hard to get to his position???


 
I am not talking about one particular accountant - I can think of a handful off the top of my head who I know only too well, and who are now multimillionaires having based their business in little old " Rip -off Ireland"  - at the expense of their clients.   I know of one little job one accountancy firm did, which was really no use to anybody, and yet which they were able to charge over 20,000 for.   The taxpayer ultimately paid for that.   The accountants are not any better at their job than anyone else is, and they certainly do not work that hard.
Anyway, to get back to the original posters point / theme, it certainly pays to shop around, and I have felt having paid many tens of thousands of euro in accountancy fees over the past number of years that you certainly do not get extra value for money if you throw coconuts at them instead of peanuts.


----------



## Graham_07 (15 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> > I know of one little job one accountancy firm did, which was really no use to anybody, and yet which they were able to charge over 20,000 for. The taxpayer ultimately paid for that.
> 
> 
> Wouldn't be the first or last time taxpayers paid for goods/serivces which were not needed or worthwhile, where shall I start ........ P-PARS ..... elect voting, ..... ?
> ...


----------



## ubiquitous (15 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> I have felt having paid many tens of thousands of euro in accountancy fees over the past number of years that you certainly do not get extra value for money if you throw coconuts at them instead of peanuts.



Why then didn't you shop around yourself?


----------



## z103 (15 Nov 2007)

> Why then didn't you shop around yourself?


Although this isn't directed at me, I did shop around (see earlier post). It's almost like there is some kind of cartel in operation.



> They have several options; they are free to go elsewhere; they can prepare their own returns; or they can simply leave their tax returns until after the deadline and *end up paying penalties to the Revenue, and moving up a notch on the Revenue's Revenue Audit risk-profiling system*.



I detest this. Pay up or the revenue will come down on you like a ton of bricks. It seems to be a common tactic. Then add a load of smoke and mirrors and whack the price up.

Isn't there advertising laws governing this kind of thing, acting on people's fear?


----------



## Graham_07 (15 Nov 2007)

leghorn said:


> I detest this. Pay up or the revenue will come down on you like a ton of bricks. It seems to be a common tactic. Then add a load of smoke and mirrors and whack the price up.
> 
> Isn't there advertising laws governing this kind of thing, acting on people's fear?


 
Taxpayers, especially those in the system a few years should be well aware of the deadline. It's not rocket science. 31 October 2007 for paper filing of years ending in 2006 or 15 November 2007 for ROS filing & payment. Revenue start advertising on radio in August. They step up the ads as the time gets closer. They are everywhere, they get on my nerves they're on so much. Yet with this and the fact that we (a) write every client at their year end and (b) do follow up phone calls closer to the due date, there are still a number of people who don't make the deadline. There's always an excuse. So I for one have not much sympathy for anyone being late. Accountants do not cause people to come in at the last minute with returns and then "whak up the prices". I don't know of any accountant who'd say, hey lets wait til last minute to get the work done then we can work 25 hours a day for 8 days a week and charge more. Come on.

( just realised, I'm posting on AAM a lot today & its the 15th November....hmmm....must be up to date with everyone so , darn that means no chance to whack up someone's bill, awww )


----------



## mf1 (15 Nov 2007)

"I detest this. Pay up or the revenue will come down on you like a ton of bricks. It seems to be a common tactic. Then add a load of smoke and mirrors and whack the price up.

Isn't there advertising laws governing this kind of thing, acting on people's fear?"

No. There are laws in place requiring people to pay their taxes in a timely manner. There are no shortage of reminders to people to do so and I have no sympathy with people who do not pay their taxes in time and who then whinge about having to pay penalties. I would be more angry if Revenue did not penalise people who played fast and loose with their obligations. 

I have accountancy friends who will be at work until midnight tonight dealing with the crazy folk who did not get their act together in time to get their affairs in order and pay their taxes in time. And those clients should and will be billed triple time. 

mf


----------



## z103 (15 Nov 2007)

> Taxpayers, especially those in the system a few years should be well aware of the deadline. It's not rocket science. 31 October 2007 for paper filing of years ending in 2006 or 15 November 2007 for ROS filing & payment.


I've been in business about 6 years. 

Last year (2006) was the first year I was aware of the 31 Oct deadline. This year (2007) was the first year I was aware that 15 Nov was the ROS deadline, because I happened to have read it a couple of weeks ago on AAM.

I have yet to see or hear an advert from revenue about these dates. I never listen to the radio or the TV.

Sounds hard to believe, but it's true.


----------



## ubiquitous (15 Nov 2007)

leghorn said:


> I detest this. Pay up or the revenue will come down on you like a ton of bricks. It seems to be a common tactic. Then add a load of smoke and mirrors and whack the price up.
> 
> Isn't there advertising laws governing this kind of thing, acting on people's fear?



I'm not overly fond of these warnings re audit risk profiling either. However if you want to blame someone for them, don't blame the accountants. Blame the Revenue as it is the Revenue who have devised and promoted the concept.

[broken link removed]

Public Accounts Committee Hearing, 20 October, 2005.
Revenue Vote 2004
Opening Statement by Revenue Chairman, Frank Daly. 



> These traditional audit programmes Chairman, from which we continue to get very good results, are part of Revenue’s overall compliance activity. I would like to advise the Committee that, just as we have modernised our organisation to meet new challenges, so also are we modernising our whole approach to compliance. *As we move on, our compliance interventions, whether they be audits or otherwise, are increasingly risk driven and based on extensive sectoral and taxpayer analysis. We are using computer technology to select cases based on risk profiling and during the audit process itself. *Most importantly we are increasing the scale of real-time activity on the ground through visits to premises, surveillance, site visits and the like. All such interventions are driving our compliance agenda and as such we would propose to specifically recognise and reflect them in future performance reports from Revenue.


----------



## Graham_07 (15 Nov 2007)

leghorn said:


> I've been in business about 6 years.
> 
> Last year (2006) was the first year I was aware of the 31 Oct deadline. This year (2007) was the first year I was aware that 15 Nov was the ROS deadline, because I happened to have read it a couple of weeks ago on AAM.
> 
> ...


 
It certainly is given that I assume that you filed returns in those other 5 earlier years. The deadline each year is clearly printed on the front page of the tax return. Can it be any simpler?


----------



## ubiquitous (15 Nov 2007)

leghorn said:


> It's almost like there is some kind of cartel in operation.



On what basis do you say this?

There is no evidence whatsoever of a cartel in the Irish accountancy practice sector.

There are *many thousands* of practices in the country, all competing with each other.

There are *four* competing Accountancy Institutes in Ireland who regulate their members. 

Thousands of new people qualify as accountants each year.

There are many accountants in Ireland who are not regulated by any Institute.

Anyone, anywhere in Ireland can set themselves up as an accountant, and practice without any minimum requirement for training, experience, qualifications, integrity or financial solvency.


----------



## z103 (15 Nov 2007)

> It certainly is given that I assume that you filed returns in those other 5 earlier years. The deadline each year is clearly printed on the front page of the tax return. Can it be any simpler?



Well, let me see now.

- There's Vat returns, every two, (or is it three months now) on some date I can't remember - or at the end of the year if you pay by direct debit.

- PAYE/PRSI - do the P35 by some time in feb. P30s, do you have to file these if paying by direct debit?

- Year end returns, do these depend on a ARD? - is everyone's ARD the same? I noticed there were a couple of different dates on the CT(1 or 2)

- CT1 (or is it CT2) - this goes to the CRO, I think. Is this part of an annual return? - I couldn't tell you. 

- Returns to the revenue - what are they looking for here? profit and loss? 

- Personal returns. Haven't a clue about this, or what I should be returning.

Yes, I do find the whole thing very confusing. Then again, I'm not an accountant. Why should the revenue expect people to understand all this stuff?


----------



## Graham_07 (15 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> There are many accountants in Ireland who are not regulated by any Institute.
> 
> Anyone, anywhere in Ireland can set themselves up as an accountant, and practice without any minimum requirement for training, experience, qualifications, integrity or financial solvency.


 
So when you are shopping around for that elusive lowest quote...remember
1) Qualified accountants take a minimum of 4 and often 6-7 (with college degrees and professional examinations) years to make. 

2) Member of the recognised accountancy bodies are regulated and have to undergo continuing professional education of approx 30 hours p.a. 

3) Newly qualified accountants need 3 years usually of post-qualification experience before they can apply for a practising certificate.

4) Regulated accountats have Professional Indemnity Insurance.

This don't come cheap folks.


----------



## z103 (15 Nov 2007)

> This don't come cheap folks.


What techical industry is cheap? Many professions require degrees and further training. Big deal.

To finish off;
I'm simply posting as a client of accountants, and this is my personal perception. Think of it as feedback to the profession. If you do not agree with aspects of what I've said, then don't blame the customer - think of ways to address these issues.

Then again, you can always just ignore all the comments that I, and others, have made. Maybe as competition increases you may reconsider them.


----------



## Graham_07 (15 Nov 2007)

leghorn said:


> > - There's Vat returns, every two, (or is it three months now) on some date I can't remember - or at the end of the year if you pay by direct debit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## z103 (15 Nov 2007)

Thanks for that Graham_07.


----------



## rabbit (15 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> newly qualified accountants are not allowed to set up in practice, regardless of whether or not they are technically competent to do vat returns.


----------



## rabbit (15 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> Anyone, anywhere in Ireland can set themselves up as an accountant, and practice without any minimum requirement for training, experience, qualifications, integrity or financial solvency.


Your 2 quotes above do not tally *ubiquitous.*  You cannot have it every way and you have been caught out again.


----------



## rabbit (15 Nov 2007)

mf1 said:


> I have accountancy friends who will be at work until midnight tonight dealing with the crazy folk who did not get their act together in time to get their affairs in order and pay their taxes in time. And those clients should and will be billed triple time.
> mf


 
I know lots of accountants and none of them ever - and I mean ever - work until midnight.  Far from it in fact.    And when does the triple time start?   For those who come with work to be done in August ?   Or Sept ? or Oct ?   And when is the cut-off time ?    Will people who ask for work to be done on the 15th of October for example be charged "normal rates" and those who come on the 16th October be charged "triple" rates, which you justify ?   And will the client be told he is being charged triple time or will he / she just be invoiced x thousand euro ?  Does it depend - like seemingly so much to do with accountants invoicing - on the mood of the accountant at a particular point in time ?    

N.B.  I know of accountants who were asked to do work 2 months ago and they still have not - any chance of them working normal time never mind until 12 midnight I wonder.


----------



## ubiquitous (15 Nov 2007)

> Posted byr rabbit
> _Originally Posted by ubiquitous
> newly qualified accountants are not allowed to set up in practice, regardless of whether or not they are technically competent to do vat returns.
> 
> ...



Let me explain

The accountancy practice sector is wide open in this country. Anyone who wants to practice can do so. A youngster can set up a practice on the day he leaves school. A convicted fraudster can set up a practice on the day he is released from prison. An undischarged bankrupt can set up a practice the day after he is made bankrupt. In short there are no barriers to entry to the industry.

That said, a large proportion of practising accountants are qualified and hold practising certificates from an accountancy Institute. These Institutes are responsible for regulating their members and enforce strict standards on them. Any client who is aggrieved by an accountant's actions/inaction/fees etc can make a formal complaint to the accountant's Institute and the Institutes have legally-enforceable powers to fine, reprimand or expel their members if they see fit.

As Graham said above, the Institutes' regulations include a stipulation that newly qualified accountants need 3 years post-qualification experience before they can apply for a practising certificate, or open & operate their own practice. This is part of the Institutes' respective quality control procedures, which are ultimately to protect the interest of their members' clients. 

However, this "3 years post-qualification experience" rule only applies to Institute members. It does not apply to the many accountants out there who are not members of an Institute.

Hence my two statements do not contradict each other.



> You cannot have it every way and you have been caught out again.


Again ???


----------



## ubiquitous (15 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> I know lots of accountants and none of them ever - and I mean ever - work until midnight.



I worked until 11.30pm last night. I worked until 10pm on Tuesday night. I took Monday night off (too tired) but worked all day last Saturday and Sunday. I don't think my experience is uncommon. And no, I did not charge triple time for doing so. On the other hand, I do not expect to be a martyr for my clients and I do expect to be paid a decent rate for facilitating my clients in helping them to meet the deadline. Thankfully my clients are happy to reciprocate by doing so.  If they're not happy to do so, they are free to go elsewhere for this service.


----------



## jem (15 Nov 2007)

Ubi& Graham,
Don't feed the trolls.


----------



## Graham_07 (15 Nov 2007)

rabbit said:


> I know lots of accountants and none of them ever - and I mean ever - work until midnight.
> 
> N.B. I know of accountants who were asked to do work 2 months ago and they still have not - any chance of them working normal time never mind until 12 midnight I wonder.


 
Rabbit.. . for someone with a pretty clearly declared unfavourable opinion of the accountancy profession, you appear to spend a lot of time around accountants...maybe you should get out more and associate with , say engineers or no wait, solicitors, no no no hang on I got it, Veterinarians. I hear they're a good bunch.


----------



## z103 (15 Nov 2007)

> Ubi& Graham,
> Don't feed the trolls.


Hmmm, I see that you too are an accountant Jem.


----------



## xxx (15 Nov 2007)

If yer so busy will ye get off this and do yer work or ye will be in till 12 again tonight


----------



## ubiquitous (15 Nov 2007)

xxx said:


> If yer so busy will ye get off this and do yer work or ye will be in till 12 again tonight



Doing nothing here today but unfortunately have to wait until 10pm before I can charge quadruple time


----------



## mf1 (15 Nov 2007)

And just in case anyone is confused about the working 'til midnight........

November 15th is final, final, no excuses, end of the line on-line filing with Revenue income tax returns. I doubt you will find a tax accountant in an office tomorrow morning - they will all be in recovery mode. 

Poor babes.

mf


----------



## xxx (15 Nov 2007)

What about the vat 3 returns that have to be in for Monday??


----------



## ubiquitous (15 Nov 2007)

mf1 said:


> I doubt you will find a tax accountant in an office tomorrow morning - they will all be in recovery mode.



.. or doing their bills


----------



## Graham_07 (15 Nov 2007)

xxx said:


> What about the vat 3 returns that have to be in for Monday??


 
Isn't that what Sunday nights are for ???


----------



## Joe1234 (15 Nov 2007)

xxx said:


> What about the vat 3 returns that have to be in for Monday??



And the CT1 returns for February 2007 year ends that have to be in by Wednesday?


----------



## TripleA (16 Nov 2007)

I am only getting back to this thread after a busy week. Glad to see my initial observation on Rabbit's comments have not got out of hand....  

There are many many criteria to judge an accounatnt on, and yes rabbit, price is one of them, but not the only one. Quality, Accuracy, Efficiency, Accessibility, Knowledge, the tax they save you, and Value for Money are but a few. 

My advice is to never skimp on an accountant on the sole basis of price. By that constraint alone you will end up with the cheapest (not the best / most suitavle) and it will cost you more in the end - in lost tax savings, missed opportunities or paying another (better / more suitable) accountant to fix mistakes.


----------



## rabbit (17 Nov 2007)

TripleA said:


> There are many many criteria to judge an accounatnt on, and yes rabbit, price is one of them, but not the only one. Quality, Accuracy, Efficiency, Accessibility, Knowledge, the tax they save you, and Value for Money are but a few.


Of course price is not the only one.   You imply from your comments above that there is a lack of consistency of your criteria in the accountancy profession, and you are correct there.   However having had dealings with many accountants over the past number of years, and having discussed the issue with numerous other business people, we have found that some accountants who charge rip-off prices do not necessarily offer a better service than those who charge lower prices.  I am sure there are some "accounatnts" who offer value for money, but it does pay to shop around, like everything else.


----------



## simplyjoe (19 Nov 2007)

I too worked long hours in the last few weeks. I worked 110 hours in the week to the 15th. I did though get paid for it!!. I got paid the equivalent of 4 weeks work. I know plenty of accountants who work until 12 O clock at night and later. Dont feel sorry for them. It was their choice to do so. 
All of the work done in this week was on clients affairs who were asked, threatened, pleaded with to bring in their records earlier but who did not do so. However, foolishly or not, my policy is to get all returns done if at all possible. We usually do all except a handful who are missing information. My staff also work long hours for these few weeks. For the people who bring in their books in the last week I charge 1.5 time my normal rates. This is to compensate me and my staff for working unsocial and long hours. My office closed on Friday and boy did I enjoy the sleep in. First day off in 6 weeks! My customers all got notice of what I charged and receive a letter of engagement for all work done. Prices are not dicatated by my humour they are dictated by the amout of hours worked multiplied by a charge out rate applicable to the type of work being done and the seniority of the person doing it. If I have a problem with a client I tell him face to face and if this does not work I sack him. Every year I sack at least 4 clients who mess around with my work schedule. I would suggest to other accountants that this is the way to go.
However Rabbit is correct in that some accountants do take the mickey when it comes to fees. If this happens check your letter of engagement and then ask for a breakdown of your fees. If they have not or do not issue you with a letter of engagement you have a case to bring to their institute. If they are not qualified you have no case. In the last few years I have seen major issues with people who have used unqualified accountants. Taxes hugely underpaid - taxes hugely overpaid and subject to the 4 year rule therefore lost, etc.. Rabbit has a point. It is up to the accountancy institutes to sort out the rogues.


----------



## ubiquitous (19 Nov 2007)

simplyjoe said:


> If they have not or do not issue you with a letter of engagement you have a case to bring to their institute.



Just to clarify - the ICAI for example recommend engagement letters as good practice but don't regard them as mandatory except for statutory audit assignments. That said, I personally wouldn't dream of taking on a client without issuing a letter of engagement.


----------



## simplyjoe (19 Nov 2007)

ubiquitous said:


> I don't think this is correct - the ICAI for example recommend engagement letters as good practice but don't regard them as mandatory except for statutory audit assignments. That said, I personally wouldn't dream of taking on a client without issuing a letter of engagement.


Agreed.


----------



## TripleA (19 Nov 2007)

simplyjoe said:


> It is up to the accountancy institutes to sort out the rogues.


 
It is to those who are regulated. But its those accountants that are unregulated and in some cases unqualified where the problem largely is (in my opinion)


----------



## simplyjoe (19 Nov 2007)

TripleA said:


> It is to those who are regulated. But its those accountants that are unregulated and in some cases unqualified where the problem largely is (in my opinion)


Fair point. I was commenting on the regulated accountants.


----------



## ubiquitous (19 Nov 2007)

Oddly enough, most if not all of the major accounting scandals both in Ireland and elsewhere over the past 10-20 years have involved the large multinational firms, who tend to dominate the Institutes who regulate the profession as a whole. Unregulated  accountants may have no regulatory supervision as such, but they still have a legally enforceable duty of care towards their clients and paradoxically as a group have a better record in avoiding scandal and wrongdoing than some of the largest and most prestigious elements within the profession.


----------

