# Warning on buying any apartment



## Colby (15 Sep 2013)

Hi
I recently was helping my son get his foot on the property ladder and we viewed plenty of properties before finding an apartment that we felt ticked all the boxes. Our offer was accepted and of course we wanted to do all we could to find out everything we could to make sure we were good to sign contracts and that there were no issues with the apartment or building.

We got our own surveyor (wasnt too keen on the piece that said visual inspection i.e no responsibility of composition of walls no access to roof or access to shores etc) but no issues with his report bar cosmetic requirement.

The bank obviously sent their surveyor too and no issues from that.

We visited the complex at various times of the day.

We spoke to 5 residents some owners some renting to see how they found it and none had any problems.

We also called to neighbours on both sides same story all loved it.
We requested a copy of the minutes of the last AGM from the owner again only minor issues (AGM held November 2012).

Thought we had done all the homework until..........a chance meeting in the car park with an owner from one of the other blocks told us his block had been having problems all since last AGM unfortunately and as a result the management Co/directors had ordered a complete survey of the blocks and 2 blocks have now identified problems with fireproofing/dampness/roofing etc etc which have yet to be communicated to residents as only recently completed.

As the apartments are 12 years old Homebond wont be paying so an EGM will be called shortly with details of works required and contribution needed per apartment which each apartment will have to pay even though all blocks surveyed and this problem only in 2 blocks.

I understand if all works are completed as per quotes received a contribution of about €6k per apartment would be needed.  I spoke to our vendor and I know from his reaction he was totally unaware of this issue and has said he just cannot reduce his price to compensate (he bought at the peak)

I am just posting for any "novice" like my son to be aware that your apartment may be 100% fine and another block may not be which will cost you and also that surveys do not cover roofs on buildings or other "covered items"

I have no idea if one can ever be 100% sure when buying an apartment that what you buying is as you think even after all the surveys/AGM minutes/conversations with owners.

In this scenario I dont know what if any the insurance would cover but its important for anyone thinking of buying to speak to managment company and directors about any "pending issues" that would affect all owners.

Apologies if this sounds like common sense to seasoned apartment purchasers but it has certainly put me on my guard and am now looking at freehold houses where your problems with the house are your own and everyone else are their own! 

Regards


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## Bronte (15 Sep 2013)

_In case people miss this post, I have copied it up to the top of the thread - Brendan _



ang1170 said:


> . So the question remains: how can a buyer protect themselves?


 


 Buy so low that it doesn't matter what lies waiting for you in repairs.
 Buy in a small block.
Buy where they are no lifts or anything that might require a big payment.
 Buy where it's mostly owner occupiers.
 Buy where the builder had a good reputation.
 
I think it's rather telling that the banks will not loan on apartments  outside the major cities.  And some will only loan 50% value on these in  some cities.  There has to be something the banks know about the state  of the apartment blocks.  

We did debate this a couple of years ago on the Priory Hall thread, about whether there were many more Priory Halls out there.


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## Colby (15 Sep 2013)

Hi
We were really luck in that we found this before we signed contracts so did not proceed (we had paid the deposit and await refund)

I am just posting our story to highlight how and issue with someone else apartment can affect your finances.

1) We did not have the 6k to pay if it was approved at EGM
2) We did not feel apartment was worth asking price +6k
3) Worse case scenario probably if all this went to EGM and majority voted not to pay then all these problems were documented in minutes and the issues remain unsolved with the apartments making them potentially much more difficult to sell in the future.

I suppose my frustration is €450 on 2 surveys that never would have uncovered this issue but thankfully we werent' stuck with it and its problems!

Cautionary tale for others.......


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## Brendan Burgess (16 Sep 2013)

Hi Colby

Very interesting and very well told, so I have made it a Key Post.

It's like a lesser version of Priory Hall. All of the Priory Hall purchasers had surveyors who gave them the all clear.  They did not pick up on the fire and other issues. 

In your case, how many of the apartment owners would be able/willing to afford the €6k?  Probably about half which would really make it an impossible problem to solve.

A narrow escape.


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## jdwex (16 Sep 2013)

One other point; low  service charges may look attractive, but if necessary maintenance is being long-fingered and inadequate provision is being made for the sinking fund owners may find they have to fork out a large lump sum down the road.


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## ryaner (16 Sep 2013)

In situations like this, and they are more common than you'd think, the repair fee is paid over a number of years. The issue will always be with owners who refuse to pay or don't allow the work to complete. Look at Belmayne and the owners who refused access for the council to complete remedial fireproofing work for example.


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## Luternau (16 Sep 2013)

As Ryaner says, a levy is generally taken over a few years. Such levies can be put on for more routine matters that are required earlier than first planned-ie replacing window frames that were not of great quality, replacing lift motors or pumps, repairs to roofs etc.

It is therefore important that the imposition of a levy is not over sensationalised.


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## Bronte (17 Sep 2013)

Brendan Burgess said:


> All of the Priory Hall purchasers had surveyors who gave them the all clear. They did not pick up on the fire and other issues.
> 
> .


 
I wonder is it possible in Ireland to hire a professional engineer/surveryor who can actually do a poper report that includes the assessment of the correctness of the internal firewalls etc.  And would it also be possible to have a come back if the report was incorrect. 

Wouldn't that solve a lot of the problems with the current surveys.  

And as we all know, the county councils etc are avoiding sending anyone in to examine any potential Priorty Halls.  And you can be sure they know which buildings to avoid.


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## Pope John 11 (17 Sep 2013)

There are plenty of Consultants out there that would be willing to do such a report. 
However to do such a report the Engineer would have to request that opening works would have to be carried out to identify the fabric of the apartment. However where do you stop. There could for instance be problems with foundations etc. Do you open up to investigate etc. What about sound issues, are further opening works required here etc.


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## Knuttell (17 Sep 2013)

As I understood it the second biggest biggest problem with Priory Hall was that it was timber framed.


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## Bronte (18 Sep 2013)

Pope John 11 said:


> There are plenty of Consultants out there that would be willing to do such a report.
> However to do such a report the Engineer would have to request that opening works would have to be carried out to identify the fabric of the apartment. However where do you stop. There could for instance be problems with foundations etc. Do you open up to investigate etc. What about sound issues, are further opening works required here etc.


 
Well I think that opening up works ought to be done on all apartment blocks built since about 2000.  You can be sure that owners in those blocks who have issues have had to get experts out to see what remedial work needs to be done, as was outlined by the OP.

How much do you think a report would cost do you think ?  I was looking at an apartment block recently, and via a relation, found out that the downpipes were built inside the walls and were causing damp problems in some parts of the block but not others.  But neither the owner nor auctioneer knew anything about this - naturally enough !

Knuttell, that's the first I've heard the Priory Hall was timber framed, presumably without firewalls it would be a lot faster to go up in smoke.


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## ryaner (18 Sep 2013)

Timber framed buildings can be properly fireproofed. Many other countries use timber framing above bricks. When timber started taking off over here, the concrete companies launched some advertising campaigns. 
Anyone remember "concrete built is better built"?


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## ciaran1 (18 Sep 2013)

I would second this warning. I reluctantly (dearth of decent 2 bed houses for sale) recently went 'sale agreed' on an apartment which everyone agreed was, as they go, a 'good building' -proper GFCH, decent finish, good corporate tenants as well as apartments etc. However, on further viewing, there was 'water/damp issues' in both bedrooms. These were never explained despite repeated requests, and I was rather aggressively fobbed off by the EA who told the 'vendor hadn't known about it' and it was 'fixed by management company' when it clearly wasn't.. I have just received my booking deposit back. I consulted with a surveyor and architect informally- neither could offer any reassurance, as noted above - unable to open up walls etc. It may well (unlikely) hae been a small burst-pipe type issue, but no explanation was put forward... It would appear very difficult to have any degree of ease about incipient problems when buying an apartment- be warned!


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## Knuttell (18 Sep 2013)

ryaner said:


> Timber framed buildings can be properly fireproofed. Many other countries use timber framing above bricks. When timber started taking off over here, the concrete companies launched some advertising campaigns.
> Anyone remember "concrete built is better built"?



It always reminds me of the 3 little pigs.

Which burns faster?Timber or concrete.

When I first heard of apt complex's being timber built I actually though my leg was being pulled.


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## Bronte (19 Sep 2013)

ciaran1 said:


> when it clearly wasn't.. I have just received my booking deposit back. I consulted with a surveyor and architect informally- neither could offer any reassurance, as noted above - unable to open up walls etc.


 
Well Pope J II above said that it was no problem to get an expert to do this.  

What is interesting though is that banks are not demanding proper surveys, but then again, they only want valuations.


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## RainyDay (19 Sep 2013)

Bronte said:


> What is interesting though is that banks are not demanding proper surveys, but then again, they only want valuations.



Indeed, and more interesting to note that solicitors acting for the buyers and advisor the buyers are not acting to protect the interests of the buyers, or at a minimum, ensure that buyers fully understand the limitations of the survey that they accept.


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## Bronte (19 Sep 2013)

RainyDay said:


> Indeed, and more interesting to note that solicitors acting for the buyers and advisor the buyers are not acting to protect the interests of the buyers, or at a minimum, ensure that buyers fully understand the limitations of the survey that they accept.


 
Well is that really a solicitors duty I wonder, they wouldn't know anything about issues around engineering/stucture.  But it would be no harm for them to warn clients on the importance of getting a full and proper survey done.


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## ang1170 (19 Sep 2013)

Bronte said:


> Well is that really a solicitors duty I wonder, they wouldn't know anything about issues around engineering/stucture. But it would be no harm for them to warn clients on the importance of getting a full and proper survey done.


 
Isn't that the point, though: you can't get a proper (i.e. effective) survey done, as you can't tell anything about items that are hidden? Priory Hall has shown the building certs are effectively valueless as well, as they can't be trusted. So the question remains: how can a buyer protect themselves?


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## Bronte (19 Sep 2013)

ang1170 said:


> . So the question remains: how can a buyer protect themselves?


 


 Buy so low that it doesn't matter what lies waiting for you in repairs.
 Buy in a small block.
Buy where they are no lifts or anything that might require a big payment.
 Buy where it's mostly owner occupiers.
 Buy where the builder had a good reputation.
 
I think it's rather telling that the banks will not loan on apartments outside the major cities.  And some will only loan 50% value on these in some cities.  There has to be something the banks know about the state of the apartment blocks.  

We did debate this a couple of years ago on the Priory Hall thread, about whether there were many more Priory Halls out there.


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## ciaran1 (19 Sep 2013)

'Buy so low that it doesn't matter what lies waiting for you in repairs' That's fine if the repairs are within your 'plot' and if its that low, then its definitely crappy... If not, you are in for a long messy expensive battle that you have potentially not control over. 
Re survey, the whole point being made above is that any consultant really has to have access to the 'innards' and this consent will not be forthcoming...


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## Bronte (20 Sep 2013)

ciaran1 said:


> Re survey, the whole point being made above is that any consultant really has to have access to the 'innards' and this consent will not be forthcoming...


 
Why won't the consent be forthcoming?


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## BOXtheFOX (20 Sep 2013)

Is it possible to get details of management committees for various apartment blocks throughout the city without having to go through an Estate Agency? I would imagine that you could get more information from the members or from the minutes of the AGM than you would from an Estate Agent. The OP did some superb detective work.


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## dam099 (20 Sep 2013)

Bronte said:


> I think it's rather telling that the banks will not loan on apartments outside the major cities. And some will only loan 50% value on these in some cities. There has to be something the banks know about the state of the apartment blocks.


 
I think this has more to do with perceived demand for apartments outside major cities than any particular knowledge about the state of the apartments.  

I wouldn't expect apartments in major cities are any better built that those outside.


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## ryaner (20 Sep 2013)

dam099 said:


> I think this has more to do with perceived demand for apartments outside major cities than any particular knowledge about the state of the apartments.
> 
> I wouldn't expect apartments in major cities are any better built that those outside.



Exactly. Some of the apartments outside of the city have had next to no price discovery, and with no long term job prospects in areas with thousands of apartments, some are are worth less than 0 at this stage. Over then next 5-10 years you can expect them to start clearing out some of the really bad ghost estates. Buildings reach a point that it is cheaper to rebuild than fix up after a period of non habitation/maintenance.


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## orka (20 Sep 2013)

Bronte said:


> Well Pope J II above said that it was no problem to get an expert to do this.


What he said was that there were consultants willing/able to do this - the problem is getting permission from the current owner to open up the structure in various places - and, really, who is going to permit any/all potential buyers' surveyors to rummage around the innards of their property making all sorts of mess? I suppose one solution for a serious seller would be to get their own consultant to do whatever survey was necessary and for that consultant to stand over their work (ie accept liability) for any potential buyers.


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