# Should we pay the electrician separately?



## aelig (15 Mar 2010)

We are doing a small extension; we got a quote from a cowboy builder which included the electrical work which was to be done by his cousin. 

The electrician done the first fix, then he rang us saying he’d like to be paid separately, and said the price for the work was €2000, we agreed as the money to pay the electrician would be coming out of the builder’s quote, but as the building work continued, the quote kept getting bigger and bigger due to everything been an extra according to the builder.

We feel both of them are trying to pull a fast one on us, because we got warning from another builder who knows their form. According to the cowboy builder he was only allowing €400 in his quote to wire a sitting room, a bed room and en suite while the electrician is looking for €2000 for the work. The only extra work he did from the original quote was wiring for 2 bed lights, a telephone socket and 2 outside lights (we supplied all the lights).

We had arguments with them both on separate occasions, the builder said his cousin is overcharging, while the electrician swore that’s the lowest any electrician would do the work for, but they aren’t willing to settle it face to face.

The building work was supposed to be a 3 week job which started in November 09 and still as yet hasn’t been completed, and the work that has been done is of a very low standard. However the electrical work is completed, but now the cowboy builder has disappeared, and we have the electrician at our door looking for his €2000 everyday.

We are in the process of getting in an engineer to condemn the cowboy builder’s bad workmanship and thinking of seeking legal advice. The other builder who warned us told us; once we paid the big money to the electrician the cowboy builder will be coming hammer on the door looking for the rest of his money.

The question here is should we pay the electrician €2000 which he claims his owed? We feel we should not make any payment until the dispute is settled, are we in the right? What steps we could take to stop the electrician from hassling us?


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## mathepac (15 Mar 2010)

Who is your contract with and what does it say? Was a schedule of works drawn up agreed and priced?


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## aelig (15 Mar 2010)

We didn’t have a written contract except the initial quote, which isn’t very detailed but included electrical work.


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## onq (16 Mar 2010)

aelig said:


> We are doing a small extension; we got a quote from a cowboy builder which included the electrical work which was to be done by his cousin.
> 
> The electrician done the first fix, then he rang us saying he’d like to be paid separately, and said the price for the work was €2000, we agreed as the money to pay the electrician would be coming out of the builder’s quote, but as the building work continued, the quote kept getting bigger and bigger due to everything been an extra according to the builder.
> 
> ...



That is only part of the question.
Yes, there is a tangle here that should be dealt with all at once.

The first question is what contract you entered whan you retained the builder.
The verbal agreements and the initial quotation may be deemd to form the basis of your contract.
You may perhaps have varied the agreement with the builder by agreeing to pay the electrician separately.
This may have formed a direct relationship with the electrician who before would have been domestic to the main contractor.
You may have agreed to other things which may or may not be labelled "extras" but which can only be fully assessed by an on-scene professional.

You cannot engage in a building dispute through AAM - that's not what we do here and the thread may be deleted if we go down that road.
Advising you on how best to proceed is a different matter:


You need as a minimum to take competent legal advice on this matter.
You need to assess the quality of the work done to get it priced.
You need to assess a price for any work competently done.
You need to itemize any work done incompetently.
You need to price the cost of any remedial work.
I think that due to the nature of the dispute and the matters to be assessed, a solicitor will be required to advise you, but he may not be in a position to deal with all the issues.
For that I think you may need a Chartered Surveyor to perform Quantity Surveying services to assess and work and comment on it to your solicitor.
An engineer will be limited to commenting on Structural Work or Services Work, depending on whether you bring on board a Structural and Civil Consulting Engineer - or a Mechanicla and Electrical Consulting Engineer.
An Architect can comment on everything else and can comment on simple structures and services layouts etc.
A QS may be able to organise brief comments from fellow professionals cost-effectively - but the cost overall wil depend on whether the builder has actually done anything competently.

We we inspect a house, we have a full team to allow for specialist comment because our Reports may form the basis for a Court submission, but you seem to be on a tight budget, so perhaps the QS is the simplest way to go, plus he can negotiate a fair price for the work with the builder, assuming you want to settle and not take him to court.
You will require the yellow cert for electrical work from the sparks and a certificate from the builder on his headed paper for all the work he has undertaken comfirming it is in compliance with the building regulations.
If there was plumbing work done, it should have been done by a certified plumber - another cert to obtain and you can use the requriement to obtain certs as your fixed bargaining position.

You should not shift from this potition of requiring certification [else how to you offer comfort about the work at sell-on], but use it to press to seek evidence that the builder has appropriate insurances and that both the sparks and plumber are registered.
Also don't accept the certs on faith [if he's a real cowboy he may have few scruples about issuing false documents], have the work inspected by the QS as a minimum.
And don't accept any extra costs arising from seekign certs - if the work is competently done there should be no issue about offering certs - if he wasn't running thsi work through htis books that's his problem, not yours.
Finally - and its probably the first thing a QS will look for - ask to see his insurance: you should have done this day one.

Without in any way trying to belittle you or being unsympathethic to your postion, situations like the one you find yourself in are why I say people should always involve a building professional to advise them - from the get go.

Hopefully if you take proper advice now the situatio can be retrieved to your benefit.

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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## aelig (19 Mar 2010)

*invoice for electrical work*

Below is the invoice:

Sitting Room: 5 Double Sockets
1 Centre Light (2 way switching)
Supply cable for 2 wall lights
2 TV Points
1 Smoke Alarm
1 Fuse Outlet & Pipe Stat for stove

Hotpress: 1 Immersion Switch & Timeclock
1 Cable supply & Timeclock (boiler)
Earthing

Bedroom: 5 Double Sockets
1 Centre Light
Supply Cable for 2 Wall Lights
Supply Cable for Wardrobe Light
1 Phone Point

Ensuite: 1 Centre Light
Supply Cable for Sink Light
Supply Cable for T90 Shower
1 Extractor Fan
1 Fan Heater

Outside: 2 Bulkhead Light (side)
Supply Cable for 2 Wall Lights (patio door)
Supply Cable for Outdoor Boiler

Other Work: Disconnection of cables in original hotpress
New Circuits to be connected at Fuse Board

I supplied all the lights and the bathroom fan, the electrician supplied wire and sockets, I wired TV Ariel and satellite dish in both sitting room and bedroom, I also wired centre light in the sitting room because the electrician claimed he didn’t know how to wire that particular Ikea light.
The electrician refused to provide the cert, said that is only issued for the ESB new connection
The electrician only gave me the quote after he almost finished work.
Initially he was charging me for 2K, after negotiation he agreed to reduce the payment to 1.7K without not much argument. But I have an impression he is still overcharging us. 
If you read my previous post, we are having some dispute with the contractor, the electrician is related to contractor, and it seems they are putting a fast on us.
Could any electrician here have a look of this invoice, see whether it is reasonable?


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## onq (20 Mar 2010)

aelig,

Firstly can I ask you not to unnecessarily multiply threads on the forum. A new post to an existing thread will "bump" it up as well as generate reader interest as they see more replies from posters populating the thread. TIA 

Secondly, we were quoted €3.5K in 2004 IIRC to completely rewire our 1960's house.
Even allowing for inflation, your original quotation does seem a little on the high side, but he's dropped it.

Perhaps he felt you were a demanding customer.
That's okay, customers have the right to demand good service.
Request a certificate from him, on his firm's headed paper and signed by a director of the firm, or if its him as a sole trader, him.

On it he he itemise the work he did and confirm that the work his firm did is in substantial compliance with the requirements of the current Building Regulations as amended and whatever the ESB tell you should be on it.

Ring the ESB to confirm what certs he should give you, because wandering around claiming he couldn't wire an IKEA light and them saying he's an electrician sounds VERY DODGY to me!

If you're not going to talk to a QS as I advised, you could get an alternative quotation from another form for the work done.

Finally, why does your list keep referring to "supply" only?

Surely it should say "supply and fit"?

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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## Sconhome (20 Mar 2010)

Any and all works that are installed as an extension of an existing system must be installed and certified by a competent electrician.

You are entitled to expect a certificate of compliance with the electrical regulations. This is all to do with the additional loading on the domestic circuit.


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## aelig (20 Mar 2010)

The electrician jumped the locked gate and went to our house threatening to remove our electricity box if I didn't pay him NOW!  Despite I told him that we were waiting for defect report from a charted surveyor and advise from the solicitor, he insisted I should pay him immediately because he need to pay the supplier, then he offered to reduce the payment and gave us another 2 or 3 days to work it out.

You are right about I am demanding a good service. when I am paying for a service, I expect the service to reach a standard, in this case, to reach a regular building standards or what so ever.

In answer to your question of that particular Ikea light, he wired light too low. The light was so low that any adult walking under that light will be hit by the light, instead of rewire it, he suggested us to put a TABLE under the light in the centre of the sitting room. 

the list I posted in previous post is his original invoice, I didn't change any word, he only gave to us when the work almost finished.

I only discovered today that the TV and satellite cable didn't connect to anywhere, yet he charged in his invoice.

I am simply looking for the advise here. Is that invoice reasonable?

Because it has been too much hassling for a young family with a 3 month old baby. The contractor whom the electrician was working for has disappeared without a trace. I am thinking if his invoice is within the reason, I might pay him separately for the sake of peace .


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## Sconhome (20 Mar 2010)

Call the gardai and report him for trespass, and assault. 

There is a process that he must follow and you are entitled to query the manner in which you are being charged.

Having said that with no contract and only verbal agreements you will have so much difficulty proving anything. 

The only people who gain by the legal route are the solicitors & barristers who will get paid their fee. 

I would recommend that you get on the case immediately and engage an independent competent agency as advised by ONQ above and let them communicate with your contractor(s).

But report the threatening abuse to the gardai immediately.


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## glic83 (21 Mar 2010)

he has to give you a cert for any electrical work that was carried out in the house as stated in the previous posts,its part of the the new regs,is this guy even registered?personally i wouldnt pay him a penny unless he is able to provide a cert that the work that he carried out conforms to the latest standards


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## onq (21 Mar 2010)

aelig said:


> The electrician jumped the locked gate and went to our house threatening to remove our electricity box if I didn't pay him NOW!  Despite I told him that we were waiting for defect report from a charted surveyor and advise from the solicitor, he insisted I should pay him immediately because he need to pay the supplier, then he offered to reduce the payment and gave us another 2 or 3 days to work it out.
> 
> You are right about I am demanding a good service. when I am paying for a service, I expect the service to reach a standard, in this case, to reach a regular building standards or what so ever.
> 
> ...



As I stated previously, you have to get the work properly assessed and get the electrical work assessed as part of the overall assessment.
I wasn't suggesting that to you off the top of my head, I meant it - but I did not mean - "post your list here and ask us to price it".
You need to start taking some suggestions that you've already been given.
And if you don't like it please don't multiply threads again - competent people are  already posting to this thread.
However, no-one who responded is a an electrician AFAIK or a QS and they're they only people who can tell you definitively what reasonable cost for this work is.

They will need to inspect the work, examine the list of items and comment.
And TBH even a good QS may be too remote from electrical work - he could price it reasonable well, but may not be in a position to say whether it is done compliantly.
The best person to examine the work in detail and comment on it is either a Mechanical and Electrical Consulting Engineer or a experienced Qualified Electrician who knows the regs well.
You've already told us he charged for work he didn't do - so how do you know any of its wired up correctly - as you're not a sparks - you can't do this.
For all you know, it could be a selection of badly wired connections just waiting to short out, so my best advice is - take professional advice.
If you want an M&E competent to assess the work and attend at court if necessary I can recommend Johnston Reid & Associates.

http://www.johnston-reid.ie/

Oh, and go and ring the police befoer this escalates and inform them about the builder while you're at it - protect your family.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.


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## Sconhome (21 Mar 2010)

+1

You should contact RECI or ECCSA for a competent electrician who will run continuity tests through the entire system and provide a report on the quality of the work.

If nothing else, your unfortunate situation should be held as an example as to why it is critical that a competent design and management team are involved even in the smallest of projects.

To get this resolved could cost you a considerable amount of money either through repair works or devaluation of your home.

Make sure all consultants are professionally indemnified via their insurances.


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## theresa1 (10 Apr 2010)

What's the normal procedure for paying to get a house re-wired . Do you pay a certain percentage in advance and the balance on completion of re-wiring? 
​


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## onq (12 Apr 2010)

Building works can be charged on a "completion" basis or an "interim stage payment" basis.

I have never advised anyone to accept working on a "payment up front" basis.

There is a call out charge for tradesmen to cover costs / deter time-wasters.

In these straitened times, where;-

a) sometimes contractors don't finish the work

or

b) sometimes employers don't pay the contractors

I advise entering a formal binding contract after properly checking work and references.

The contract may be a fixed price, with a little over to cover eventualities, or may be tightly priced with PC sums to allow for the unforseen/unquantifiable.

The contract binds both parties to the agreement and the checking of references is a no-brianer - make sure its not a "friend's" you're looking at house though.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon  as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be  taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in  Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at  hand.


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