# Summons for no insurance



## Jdoe1234 (4 Feb 2019)

I've just received a summons for driving with no Insurance or tax. The tax was my fault I admit but I was driving the car on a 3rd party extension, which in order to be effective the car had to be in someone else's name. I was driving a car that was in my own name but I had sent off the logbook two days before and was of the understanding that I was insured  
What will happen?


----------



## Palerider (4 Feb 2019)

You owned the car so the 3rd party extension does not apply.

You need a solicitor who will plead your case, if you had the time to send the logbook away how come you didn't insure it, if you have a good reason for that and no prior history the court may be lenient.


----------



## Sgt_Pepper (4 Feb 2019)

I bought a car privately through an ad on donedeal a number of years back. After agreeing a price,.signing over the logbook transfer and paying the man for the car, I tried to ring my insurance company on-the-spot to transfer my insurance so i could legally drive it home but there was absolutely no mobile phone coverage. I opted to take a chance on driving it a few miles up the road until I had phone reception, but as luck would have it, I hit a checkpoint. Naturally, the Garda was fairly suspicious as I initially couldn't find  the electric window button to talk to him, on further questioning nor could I tell him the original owner's name or show him any documentation whatsoever that I was after buying it. Nor did I have my licence. I couldn't call up the original advert online there-and-then either as I had no signal. 

To make a long story short he told me I was getting a summons for no insurance unless I could prove I was insured. A week or so later I called to him by requesting an appointment with him at the garda station. I brought  my licence, tax, NCT and insurance details for the vehicle I was actually insured on that day - not the one I bought that day. He looked through it and said he'd ring my insurance company himself, explain what had happened, and ask if they'd be prepared to cover me for the date in question. I wasn't there when he made the phonecall so I didn't actually hear it, but he came back a few mins later and said it's sorted and my insurance company, who I'm with almost 20 years, had said I was covered on the date.

I would approach the Garda, bring as much paperwork as you can.It's worth a shot.


----------



## SparkRite (4 Feb 2019)

Jdoe1234 said:


> I've just received a summons for driving with no Insurance or tax. The tax was my fault I admit but I was driving the car on a 3rd party extension, which in order to be effective the car had to be in someone else's name. I was driving a car that was in my own name but *I had sent off the logbook two days before* and was of the understanding that I was insured
> What will happen?



I'm assuming the reason you were doing this was that you had sold/transferred ownership of the car ?
If you can prove this eg. some receipt or document proving sale/transfer, then the vehicle did NOT belong to you on the date you were stopped, irrespective of who's name is on the VRC.
It follows then you were insured to drive, if as you say you have "driving other cars.....blah, blah" extension on your policy.


----------



## Leo (5 Feb 2019)

What car was the 3rd party policy you were relying on associated with? Did you ever have an insurance policy in place on the car you were stopped in and if so, when did that lapse? Likewise, when did the tax lapse?

It is a little unusual to be driving a car you allegedly sold some days previously.


----------



## Jdoe1234 (5 Feb 2019)

I had never had a policy on that car I had bought it and the seller sent off the logbook with my details on it so when i received the logbook I changed it to my mother's name and sent it off,(I was meant to be travelling down the country the day after I was caught and needed that car as my other car was broken) I assumed it was a quick process and that it would be in my name in the next day or so,my bad, I've already received the summons I have a court date in s month or so, so it's a bit late to get in contact with the guard. If they look at the change of ownership dates they will see the car changed hands on the 13th and I was caught on the 14th should that suffice?


----------



## Leo (5 Feb 2019)

Jdoe1234 said:


> If they look at the change of ownership dates they will see the car changed hands on the 13th and I was caught on the 14th should that suffice?



They may take it into account if insurance was in place from the time of purchase in your mother's name. A good solicitor will be able to advise how best to present your case.


----------



## Jdoe1234 (5 Feb 2019)

That's what I'm hoping, is it a ban for driving with no Insurance? I've no previous or anything


----------



## Jdoe1234 (5 Feb 2019)

I'll be able to prove the car was transferred on a different date with the log book, although that car has since been scrapped I'm sure I'll be able to get a copy from the place in Shannon


----------



## SparkRite (5 Feb 2019)

This is a simple case ( I have personal experience of it and I did NOT use a solicitor), you did not own the car when the Guard stopped you. Assuming you can prove this and you say you can, then you were insured under the "driving other cars" extension.

Show this evidence to the Guard on/or before the date of the hearing, he may well ask that the charge is withdrawn, failing that show it to the judge.


----------



## Jdoe1234 (5 Feb 2019)

Okay thanks mate will do


----------



## LS400 (5 Feb 2019)

Jdoe1234 said:


> although that car has since been scrapped



Sounds a complete mess



SparkRite said:


> This is a simple case



There is nothing simple about this.



Leo said:


> They may take it into account if insurance was in place from the time of purchase in your mother's name



Thats your only get out of jail card. The Driving of other cars, only comes into play (if) the other car is already insured on someone elses policy. End of.


----------



## SparkRite (5 Feb 2019)

Somewhat arrogant tone detected............ 



LS400 said:


> There is nothing simple about this.



It is extremely simple........He was either insured or he wasn't !!




LS400 said:


> Thats your only get out of jail card. The Driving of other cars, only comes into play (if) the other car is already insured on someone elses policy. End of.



But it's not "End of" is it ?

Some policies stipulate that, some don't...............eg. Liberty do, AXA don't . 
So depends on the OP's policy/underwriter.
My personal experience was that I was insured while there was no separate policy related to the vehicle I was driving.

"Doctors differ, patients die".


----------



## Palerider (5 Feb 2019)

My understanding with every company I have been with is that the other vehicle must be insured for a third party extension on my policy to be valid for me to drive.


----------



## galway_blow_in (5 Feb 2019)

Sgt_Pepper said:


> I bought a car privately through an ad on donedeal a number of years back. After agreeing a price,.signing over the logbook transfer and paying the man for the car, I tried to ring my insurance company on-the-spot to transfer my insurance so i could legally drive it home but there was absolutely no mobile phone coverage. I opted to take a chance on driving it a few miles up the road until I had phone reception, but as luck would have it, I hit a checkpoint. Naturally, the Garda was fairly suspicious as I initially couldn't find  the electric window button to talk to him, on further questioning nor could I tell him the original owner's name or show him any documentation whatsoever that I was after buying it. Nor did I have my licence. I couldn't call up the original advert online there-and-then either as I had no signal.
> 
> To make a long story short he told me I was getting a summons for no insurance unless I could prove I was insured. A week or so later I called to him by requesting an appointment with him at the garda station. I brought  my licence, tax, NCT and insurance details for the vehicle I was actually insured on that day - not the one I bought that day. He looked through it and said he'd ring my insurance company himself, explain what had happened, and ask if they'd be prepared to cover me for the date in question. I wasn't there when he made the phonecall so I didn't actually hear it, but he came back a few mins later and said it's sorted and my insurance company, who I'm with almost 20 years, had said I was covered on the date.
> 
> I would approach the Garda, bring as much paperwork as you can.It's worth a shot.


That guard would have been forced to pull in his horns had it gone to court, he realised he had to climb down after you supported your story with evidence in the station,ringing up the insurance company waa just power tripping and uncalled for


----------



## Jdoe1234 (5 Feb 2019)

My policy was once the car was not in my name I could drive it


----------



## SparkRite (5 Feb 2019)

Jdoe1234 said:


> My policy was once the car was not in my name I could drive it



Well, to be fair, they generally have a few more conditions than just that one.


----------



## Jdoe1234 (5 Feb 2019)

I've since bought a new car have a fully paid fresh insurance policy on it with a full window, this should surely help aswell no?


----------



## SparkRite (5 Feb 2019)

Jdoe1234 said:


> I've since bought a new car have a fully paid fresh insurance policy on it with a full window, this should surely help aswell no?



Why would you think or imagine, that would help ? Totally irrelevant to the charge you are facing.


----------



## Jdoe1234 (5 Feb 2019)

It was the only info given to me with my insurance policy, maybe there was more fine print somewhere I could very well be wrong. I'm expecting worst case scenario with all this but I guess I'll have to run through it all with a solicitor and see


----------



## Leo (6 Feb 2019)

Jdoe1234 said:


> It was the only info given to me with my insurance policy, maybe there was more fine print somewhere I could very well be wrong.



One thing you can be sure of is that all insurance policies come with lots of small print, usually in the form of a policy booklet that they will post, email, or send you a link to. These can be viewed online for most of the major insurers, for example 123.ie, AXA, ...


----------



## DirectDevil (6 Feb 2019)

I am a little puzzled by some of the details here 

Is OP saying that he is insured under the DOC extension of the motor policy for the car he sold ?
If so, that argument may be defective.
Once you sell a car the motor insurance policy on it is effectively inoperative for two reasons (possibly the same reason) ;
(i)  Insureable interest ceases to exist and or
(ii) The subject matter of the policy has been disposed of.


----------



## DirectDevil (7 Feb 2019)

An additional issue occurs to me namely that of *ownership.*

Specifically, at what point does the ownership of the vendor [OP] cease and the ownership of the purchaser commence ?
Is it the date on which the local authority or the Department of Transport - whichever applies - register the change ?
Is it the date on which the relevant paperwork is *posted* to the local authority / Department of Transport ?
Is it the date on which the vendor [OP] receives the contractual consideration from the purchaser ?

My point is that if the OP was still technically the owner of the vehicle when stopped by Gardaí he might well be validly insured* if* he did not cancel the policy before he was stopped. In that event the DOC issue is nugatory as the insurance was in place.

In relation to OP's possession of the vehicle after it was "apparently" sold it might be argued that he was holding it on trust pending completion of the sale and purchase.  

If OP was still the technical owner when stopped he will cop it for the road tax issue as he already accepts.
If OP was not the technical owner when stopped he might escape the road tax charge.

There is much here for the OP to explore with his solicitor with a view to clarifying the exact possibilities or even raising reasonable doubt.

Strange though it may sound it is possible for a person to be without valid motor insurance when stopped but to be acquitted of the charge if there is reasonable doubt about the surrounding evidentiary issues relating to how the situation came to pass. It is for the District Justice to determine this issue if the charge is being contested.
That said the courts take a fairly serious view of driving without insurance which is why it is a mandatory court appearance.


----------



## Leo (7 Feb 2019)

DirectDevil said:


> My point is that if the OP was still technically the owner of the vehicle when stopped by Gardaí he might well be validly insured* if* he did not cancel the policy before he was stopped. In that event the DOC issue is nugatory as the insurance was in place.



OP earlier stated:



Jdoe1234 said:


> I had never had a policy on that car <snip>
> I was meant to be travelling down the country the day after I was caught and needed that car as my other car was broken



So my take is they are relying on the DOC element of a valid policy on the other car they owned at the time.

The fact that the car that was bought for the OP's mother's use has seemingly been so quickly scrapped might raise questions.


----------



## SparkRite (7 Feb 2019)

DirectDevil said:


> An additional issue occurs to me namely that of *ownership.*
> 
> Specifically, at what point does the ownership of the vendor [OP] cease and the ownership of the purchaser commence ?
> Is it the date on which the local authority or the Department of Transport - whichever applies - register the change ?
> ...



It is scenario three.
As soon as the purchaser pays all monies for the vehicle and both parties sign and date the transfer of ownership on the VLC.



DirectDevil said:


> <snip>
> 
> If OP was still the technical owner when stopped he will cop it for the road tax issue as he already accepts.
> *If OP was not the technical owner when stopped he might escape the road tax charge.
> *



Not true.

It is irrelevant who owns the car when dealing with a non valid road tax (or whatever it is called now) disc, it is the driver
of said vehicle at said time.

We could be here 'till the cows come home discussing the ins and outs of this, but we have VERY little info to go on and what info we have is at best equivocal.


----------

