# Politicians - trips abroad for Paddys



## DeeFox (14 Mar 2008)

Am I the only one who hopes they won't come back?


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## rabbit (14 Mar 2008)

DeeFox said:


> Am I the only one who hopes they won't come back?


 

They are not long back from their Xmas holidays and then they go gallivanting again at taxpayers expense on foreign jaunts.   What a shower.


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## RMCF (14 Mar 2008)

Have to laugh at all these junkets.

As someone suggested on the radio yesterday, if they want to promote us around the world, why don't they fly foreign leaders INTO Ireland during the St. Patricks weekend to show them OUR country.

Would make more sense.

And I have to laugh at the crowd we have in NI. Jeffrey Donaldson, who is probably one of the most 'I'm not Irish, I'm British' politicians you could ever meet is jetting off to the US (Boston or New York I believe) with Martin McGuinness for the Paddys Day junket. Finds it hard to sit at the same table as him, but will jet off to a 5 star hotel at the tax-payers expense with him


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## roland (14 Mar 2008)

rabbit said:


> They are not long back from their Xmas holidays and then they go gallivanting again at taxpayers expense on foreign jaunts. What a shower.


 
At who's expense should our elected representatives be sent abroad to promote our country? It's difficult to believe the amount of 'shock horror' that has emerged from RTE's 'investigative journalism' that 'discovered' (a) ministers actually went abroad to promote Ireland on Paddy's day (b) they actually had the nerve to stay in hotels (c) they hired a car to bring them about. What is it we expect our Ministers to do when they are representing us abroad? Hire an auld banger and drive themselves about to meet with the local business leaders... sit down in ecomony wedged in for the long-haul ..... and perhaps stay in a run-down hotel in a dodgy part of town? If you are abroad looking for hundreds of millions of foreign direct investment, you have to create a good impression. Short and simple. Penny-pinching on the cost of car hire and hotels is about as short-sighted as it gets.


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## z103 (14 Mar 2008)

> At who's expense should our elected representatives be sent abroad to promote our country? It's difficult to believe the amount of 'shock horror' that has emerged from RTE's 'investigative journalism' that 'discovered' (a) ministers actually went abroad to promote Ireland on Paddy's day (b) they actually had the nerve to stay in hotels (c) they hired a car to bring them about. What is it we expect our Ministers to do when they are representing us abroad?


What do they mean, _promoting us abroad_? - I'd rather they didn't.
The money would be far, far better spend given to small companies so that they could really promote themselves abroad, rather than clueless TDs. (for example)
Actually, the money would be of better use for virtually anything else, including toilet paper.


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## Purple (15 Mar 2008)

roland said:


> At who's expense should our elected representatives be sent abroad to promote our country? It's difficult to believe the amount of 'shock horror' that has emerged from RTE's 'investigative journalism' that 'discovered' (a) ministers actually went abroad to promote Ireland on Paddy's day (b) they actually had the nerve to stay in hotels (c) they hired a car to bring them about. What is it we expect our Ministers to do when they are representing us abroad? Hire an auld banger and drive themselves about to meet with the local business leaders... sit down in ecomony wedged in for the long-haul ..... and perhaps stay in a run-down hotel in a dodgy part of town? If you are abroad looking for hundreds of millions of foreign direct investment, you have to create a good impression. Short and simple. Penny-pinching on the cost of car hire and hotels is about as short-sighted as it gets.


I agree with you. Politicians work long and hard and get little but abuse for their efforts. I'm sure most of them would rather be at home for the weekend.


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## cole (15 Mar 2008)

roland said:


> What is it we expect our Ministers to do when they are representing us abroad? .......Penny-pinching on the cost of car hire and hotels is about as short-sighted as it gets.


 
I expect them to be able to get a hotel room for less than 1500 per night. But it's okay, sure they're promoting us.


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## Guest127 (15 Mar 2008)

a trip for 5 for a few days to the states costing €75,000 seems a wee bit over the top. bet Warren would have done it for a fraction of the cost and attracted 1000 times the amount of interest in anything he was promoting.


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## rabbit (15 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> I agree with you. Politicians work long and hard and get little but abuse for their efforts. I'm sure most of them would rather be at home for the weekend.


Long + hard ?   Sure they are not back from their Xmas holidays, and in another few months will be getting their long summer holidays.   

I remember a foreign manager of a multinational here chatting to me about our country once, and he compared most of our politicians to third world politians.   Certainly the corruption, junkets and 1500 dollar a night foreign hotel stays did not impress him.    Even the county councillors down the country go abroad at taxpayers expense.    After all, Ireland is a small little country, about the same size as many cities the world.


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## roland (15 Mar 2008)

cole said:


> I expect them to be able to get a hotel room for less than 1500 per night. But it's okay, sure they're promoting us.


 
Sure, take one extreme example, without any context given, and use that as a stick to beat the whole government.  Charming.  

For example, did RTE investigate and explain if there was any wider context to the expensive suite?  Oh God no, sure that might require them to actually do some proper investigation.  Perhaps the Minister was meeting important business people, and used the suite as the meeting place.  Did RTE investigate if others hired less expensive hotel rooms, but then went on to hire other meeting rooms separately?  How many people used the suite?  Would it have been better to stay out of town in a cheap motel so the headline room rate is kept low for the RTE hacks, but then spend money to get in and out of town?  

Would you prefer that nobody promotes us abroad or how do you propose it's done?


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## roland (15 Mar 2008)

rabbit said:


> Long + hard ? Sure they are not back from their Xmas holidays, and in another few months will be getting their long summer holidays.


 
This is another old turkey dragged up by RTE and the Daily Star when they can't fill their news slots.....and then fed to masses looking for the next reason to throw their eyes up to heaven at the politicians they elected.  Do you actually know any politicians and the hours they work?  The Dail might be at recess during these periods, but this doesn't equate to 'holidays'.  If it's so attractive and life was so easy being a politician, why the hell isn't the whole nation clambouring to be elected?  You know damn well why they aren't - most of us wouldn't touch the job with a barge pole.


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## z103 (15 Mar 2008)

> Would you prefer that nobody promotes us abroad or how do you propose it's done?


I would prefer to spend my own money promoting my own company abroad, rather than be forced to pay for some TD's junket.


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## Purple (16 Mar 2008)

roland said:


> This is another old turkey dragged up by RTE and the Daily Star when they can't fill their news slots.....and then fed to masses looking for the next reason to throw their eyes up to heaven at the politicians they elected.  Do you actually know any politicians and the hours they work?  The Dail might be at recess during these periods, but this doesn't equate to 'holidays'.  If it's so attractive and life was so easy being a politician, why the hell isn't the whole nation clambouring to be elected?  You know damn well why they aren't - most of us wouldn't touch the job with a barge pole.


 Agreed.



leghorn said:


> I would prefer to spend my own money promoting my own company abroad, rather than be forced to pay for some TD's junket.


Considering the billions which are being spent handing people new homes in Dublin and Limerick because they wrecked their old ones, and all the other vast waste of public money which takes place every day, I have no problem with a tiny proportion of tax payers money being spent promoting Ireland and Irish companies abroad.


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## DavyJones (17 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> I agree with you. Politicians work long and hard and get little but abuse for their efforts. I'm sure most of them would rather be at home for the weekend.


 
Your joking, right?!


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## stir crazy (17 Mar 2008)

cuchulainn said:


> bet Warren would have done it for a fraction of the cost and attracted 1000 times the amount of interest in anything he was promoting.



Eh . . Warren Buffett ? 



Purple said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> Considering the billions which are being spent handing people new homes in Dublin and Limerick because they wrecked their old ones,



Are you referring to Council dwellings ?


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## z103 (17 Mar 2008)

> Considering the billions which are being spent handing people new homes in Dublin and Limerick because they wrecked their old ones, and all the other vast waste of public money which takes place every day, I have no problem with a tiny proportion of tax payers money being spent promoting Ireland and Irish companies abroad.


Even though there is a 'vast waste of public money', you don't mind even more public money being wasted on what I would regard as TD's junkets?
I would prefer that no public money was wasted at all.


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## Purple (17 Mar 2008)

leghorn said:


> I would prefer that no public money was wasted at all.



So would I but I think that selling the brand abroad is important and one of the few useful things that our politicians do.


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## Complainer (17 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> Considering the billions which are being spent handing people new homes in Dublin and Limerick because they wrecked their old ones,


Can I ask who the 'they' refers to in this sentence?


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## Purple (17 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> Can I ask who the 'they' refers to in this sentence?


 The people who wrecked the homes in the areas of Limerick and Dublin that were given to them by the tax payers of this country which are now being knocked down and replaced by the same tax payers.


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## Complainer (17 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> The people who wrecked the homes in the areas of Limerick and Dublin that were given to them by the tax payers of this country which are now being knocked down and replaced by the same tax payers.



Seems to be lots of assumptions here, i.e.
- people who live in council houses don't pay tax
- people wrecked their own houses


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## Green (18 Mar 2008)

There seems to be one voice missing in all this debate, that is the voice of Irish diaspora. When politicians go abroad for Paddy Day they attend a lot of events that are attended by Irish people and those of Irish descent. They are genuinely pleased with the opportunity to reconnect with Ireland.


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## cole (18 Mar 2008)

roland said:


> Would you prefer that nobody promotes us abroad or how do you propose it's done?


 
I propose that it's done in a cost efficient manner.


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## Purple (18 Mar 2008)

YOBR said:


> There seems to be one voice missing in all this debate, that is the voice of Irish diaspora. When politicians go abroad for Paddy Day they attend a lot of events that are attended by Irish people and those of Irish descent. They are genuinely pleased with the opportunity to reconnect with Ireland.


 Very good point.


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## Purple (18 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> Seems to be lots of assumptions here, i.e.
> - people who live in council houses don't pay tax
> - people wrecked their own houses



You are making assumptions (and generalisations. I was referring to the people who live in public housing who wreck said housing, not those who don't. 
You shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush like that


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> You are making assumptions (and generalisations. I was referring to the people who live in public housing who wreck said housing, not those who don't.
> You shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush like that


Apologies for my error. Can you confirm how big a problem this is, i.e. "people who live in public housing who wreck said housing". Are there many cases of this on record?


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## Purple (18 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> Apologies for my error. Can you confirm how big a problem this is, i.e. "people who live in public housing who wreck said housing". Are there many cases of this on record?


 No probelm, no and I have no idea. How's that?
Here's one for you; Do you agree that some people in public housing vandalise said housing or do you think that such vandalism does not take place?


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## Megan (18 Mar 2008)

A report in today's Indo states that a Traveller's site in Waterford that has being rebuilt twice is now going to cost another €2 Million for the third time in its history. Someboy should call halt on tax payers' money being spent like this.
http://www.independent.ie/national-...ice-will-now-cost-another-83642m-1320274.html


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> Do you agree that some people in public housing vandalise said housing or do you think that such vandalism does not take place?


It's not an area that I know much about. I generally therefore refrain from making broad statements about what 'they' did as a result.


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## Purple (18 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> It's not an area that I know much about. I generally therefore refrain from making broad statements about what 'they' did as a result.


How PC of you. It is entirely reasonable to say that some people who are the beneficiaries of public housing vandalise that housing. The scale of the problem is the only issue for debate.
I was born in such an area and I work in such an area so I am not speaking from any bias. I am baffled by the attitude in this country that any criticism of anyone in a “socially disadvantaged area” is right wing and/or inappropriate. As someone who spends time in such a “socially disadvantaged area” every working day and socialises in the same place at least three times a month (which is about half the times I go out) I see far more vandalism, underage kids drinking on the streets and general dirt on the streets and vandalism and dirt on people’s properties in those areas than I do in leafy suburbia.


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> As someone who spends time in such a “socially disadvantaged area” every working day and socialises in the same place at least three times a month (which is about half the times I go out) I see far more vandalism, underage kids drinking on the streets and general dirt on the streets and vandalism and dirt on people’s properties in those areas than I do in leafy suburbia.



Have you thought about why this might be the case?


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## Purple (18 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> Have you thought about why this might be the case?


Yes, I am aware of the factors that mitigate towards more crime and less social responsibility (for want of a better phrase) in poorer areas but the bottom line is that adults are responsible for their own actions and parents are responsible for their children. To suggest otherwise patronises people in those areas and insults people like my friends and co-workers who keep their homes on good shape and their kids on the straight and narrow.


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## roland (18 Mar 2008)

cole said:


> I propose that it's done in a cost efficient manner.


 
On what grounds are you deciding that it wasn't done in a cost efficient manner?  Selectively using figures, such as the cost of one of the hotel rooms used, can hardly be deemed to be an analysis you could draw any firm conclusion from.


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## Purple (18 Mar 2008)

roland said:


> On what grounds are you deciding that it wasn't done in a cost efficient manner?  Selectively using figures, such as the cost of one of the hotel rooms used, can hardly be deemed to be an analysis you could draw any firm conclusion from.


 True, but it's also not grounds to conclude that it was.


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## Complainer (18 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> Yes, I am aware of the factors that mitigate towards more crime and less social responsibility (for want of a better phrase) in poorer areas but the bottom line is that adults are responsible for their own actions and parents are responsible for their children. To suggest otherwise patronises people in those areas and insults people like my friends and co-workers who keep their homes on good shape and their kids on the straight and narrow.


One of the most powerful analytical tools I've come across for human issues is the . So let's put it into effect.

Why do you reckon that some adults are less socially responsible in poor areas?


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## z103 (18 Mar 2008)

Just going back on topic


> There seems to be one voice missing in all this debate, that is the voice of Irish diaspora. When politicians go abroad for Paddy Day they attend a lot of events that are attended by Irish people and those of Irish descent. They are genuinely pleased with the opportunity to reconnect with Ireland.


When these people go off on their junkets, are they really connecting with the Irish diaspora? or 'promoting Ireland'? I don't believe they are. They are meeting with heads of states and spending *your* money on luxury. I find this disgusting.


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## Green (19 Mar 2008)

leghorn said:


> Just going back on topic
> When these people go off on their junkets, are they really connecting with the Irish diaspora? or 'promoting Ireland'? I don't believe they are. They are meeting with heads of states and spending *your* money on luxury. I find this disgusting.


 
Have you ever looked at an itinerary for one of these trips? Forget about Bertie and the White House, grab yourself a copy of an itinerary of one of the others and you will see what I mean...


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## stir crazy (19 Mar 2008)

A good question might be, does any other country do the whole 'junket' thing better than us, if so which one(s) and what makes their practices better? But which country of such small size has promoted a positive image better than Ireland  has ? I cant think of one.
I can see the point about not needing to send our small change councillors on expensive junkets but we should be able to afford our heads of state some luxury without going overboard as to do otherwise makes us look like we haven't got an ass in our trousers and would make us a laughing stock.


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## Purple (19 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> One of the most powerful analytical tools I've come across for human issues is the . So let's put it into effect.
> 
> Why do you reckon that some adults are less socially responsible in poor areas?


I'm not a big fan of 6 Sigma and find that the 5 ways tool can just lead of on tangential discussions (a bit like this one ). I'm also not going to get into a civic lesson/ discussion on an Internet forum. If you feel like meeting up for a pint I'd be more than happy to talk to you about it but not here... sorry.


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## Purple (19 Mar 2008)

stir crazy said:


> A good question might be, does any other country do the whole 'junket' thing better than us, if so which one(s) and what makes their practices better? But which country of such small size has promoted a positive image better than Ireland  has ? I cant think of one.
> I can see the point about not needing to send our small change councillors on expensive junkets but we should be able to afford our heads of state some luxury without going overboard as to do otherwise makes us look like we haven't got an ass in our trousers and would make us a laughing stock.


 agreed (What ever next?! )


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## Caveat (19 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> agreed (What ever next?! )


 

AAAYYY!! Group hug! Group Hug!


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## stir crazy (19 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> agreed (What ever next?! )





Caveat said:


> AAAYYY!! Group hug! Group Hug!



lol I hope you both dont'  mind my garlic breath


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## Complainer (19 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> I'm not a big fan of 6 Sigma and find that the 5 ways tool can just lead of on tangential discussions (a bit like this one ).




So you are a fan of lean manufacturing but not Six Sigma? There are many synergies between the two approaches. Why does lean appeal to you but not Six Sigma?



Purple said:


> I'm also not going to get into a civic lesson/ discussion on an Internet forum. If you feel like meeting up for a pint I'd be more than happy to talk to you about it but not here... sorry.



I have to say that this sounds like a cop-out to me. Your other posts show a positive enthusiasm for getting into civics lessons, where the topic suits you.


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## Caveat (20 Mar 2008)

Come on Complainer. From post #30 to this point, your contributions look to me to be the very definition of straw-manning.


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## stir crazy (20 Mar 2008)

Caveat said:


> Come on. From post #30 to this point, looks to me to be the very definition of straw-manning.



 including your own post ?


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## Purple (20 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> So you are a fan of lean manufacturing but not Six Sigma? There are many synergies between the two approaches. Why does lean appeal to you but not Six Sigma?


6-Sigma was born as a statistical analysis tool in high volume manufacturing. In my view it is great if you are making 2 million inkjet cartridges a day but bugger all use in a service company or in low volume specialist manufacturing which is heavily tied in to an engineering and customer service offering. Bits and pieces can be taken from Lean and used in many areas of work.  





Complainer said:


> I have to say that this sounds like a cop-out to me. Your other posts show a positive enthusiasm for getting into civics lessons, where the topic suits you.


I have no problem with a discussion but for that to happen you will have to offer opinions, not just ask questions. 
I agree with Caveat in that respect.


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## Complainer (20 Mar 2008)

Caveat said:


> Come on Complainer. From post #30 to this point, your contributions look to me to be the very definition of straw-manning.



In all fairness, from post 30 to here, I hadn't put forward any argument at all, straw-man or otherwise. I was simply trying to explore the depth of Purple's position, but it was like diving into the shallow end of the pool - I hit the bottom far earlier than I expected.


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## Caveat (21 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> In all fairness, from post 30 to here, I hadn't put forward any argument at all straw-man or otherwise.


 
No, not really. But to me, there was a distinct rustle of plant fibre being gathered


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## Purple (22 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> In all fairness, from post 30 to here, I hadn't put forward any argument at all, straw-man or otherwise. I was simply trying to explore the depth of Purple's position, but it was like diving into the shallow end of the pool - I hit the bottom far earlier than I expected.


Such civic mindedness...
Just because your own bias does not allow you to see deeper into the pool it does not mean that you have hit the bottom. 
I have explained why I hold the opinions that I do, just because you do not share those views it does not make them invalid. This is something that many pseudo-liberal fail to grasp (I am not saying that you fall into this category, but you might ).


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## Complainer (23 Mar 2008)

Purple said:


> Such civic mindedness...
> Just because your own bias does not allow you to see deeper into the pool it does not mean that you have hit the bottom.
> I have explained why I hold the opinions that I do, just because you do not share those views it does not make them invalid. This is something that many pseudo-liberal fail to grasp (I am not saying that you fall into this category, but you might ).


My 'shallow end' comments have nothing to do with whether I agree with your views. They refer to the fact that my attempt to explore the basis for your views hit a brick wall.


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## Purple (24 Mar 2008)

Complainer said:


> My 'shallow end' comments have nothing to do with whether I agree with your views. They refer to the fact that my attempt to explore the basis for your views hit a brick wall.


That's because I do not engage with people who do not share their views as part of the discussion. You give and I'll give.


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