# Rented Pub Struggling!



## dieselhead

Hi Everyone,

I have a rented Pub and am struggling to make loan and rent payments. I really need some ideas to get me through January and Febuary the 2 quietest months on the pub calender. I have done little to no trade Monday to Friday in the last few weeks

I am renting a place that has a large pub, 9 rooms for B&B and a small nightclub.


A few important things to know about my pub and the town im in:

I have been in business since April 08
Town population is almost 2000
There are 6 pubs in the town, 2 which are very well established
The 2 big pubs have about 80+% of the trade during Monday to Friday which leaves myself and the other 3 scrounging for the remaing 20% to which I get virtually none.
Most of my Mon-Fri trade was with tourists when i opened in April as they really liked the place as it is very classy but not OTT.
My pub is the only really suitable pub to have a 4 or 5 piece band or a disco bar.
Local bands are the only type of music that draws a crowd, I have got a few very good bands from other towns but the locals are not interested.
I generally loose money during the week but my Saturday night makes up for the poor week but if Saturday is quiet then my finances take a major hit.
I have affected the weekend trade of the 2 big guns as I usually fill the place every Saturday in May-Oct.
I always clear the town on the Bank Holiday Weekends on the Sunday night, including the 2 big guns, as I always have a brill line up for them.
The pub is old and is nearly impossible to heat in the winter even though I have an open fire and 2 electric heaters but you would still need to keep your jumper on. The worst thing is all the other pubs are very warm and cosy so when people come into my place after being in one of the other pubs my place feels so cold.
The cost of opening the doors of the nightclub is €1300min between Bar extention, Dance licence, Security and staff and is a real hit and miss. Sometimes you might get 180-200 and others it might be 40!!!! Regardless of the amount of advertising done. The other pubs serve late (and dont get a bar extention and get away with it!!!) when the nightclub is open so the people dont leave their place to come to mine. Bands tend to bring bigger numbers then just a disco but they come with a higher cost also so if the crowd don't come then it a bigger loss for me.
I did have 2fm's DJ Nikki Hayes in the nightclub last summer which was a huge success.
The 2 well established pubs have Sky TV and I don't but that purely because it costs *€2000 PER MONTH* for my pub. Check out the link . Today I heard that Setanta Sports is offering a reasonable package to pubs doe anyone know anything about this?
Here are a few things that I have at my disposal:

A small kitchen suitable for a small hotel(big ovens and fryer etc)
Pool Table
Dart board
Nightclub/Function room
Large pub suitable for band/quiz
Large Screen with Projector hooked to TV
I have a few questions you may be able to answer:

Any ideas to get people in during the week
you any ideas how I can attract people to have their Birthday in the pub?
New events to be held in the nightclub or pub
Anyways to cut costs, write things off to the business, tax relief or even get money back on anything!!!
Get a drink promotion from Guinness or Heineken because they tell me I dont do them anymore.
Fundraising ideas
B&B advertising ideas
Ideas to get sports channels cheaper on the TV.
Basically I need to get people in during the week and to cut costs.

I would like to thank you in advance for any advice or info you may provide me with as I need as much as possible to prevent it going bottoms up.

If I left out anything please feel free to contact me


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## Romulan

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

One of the local pubs in my village does well allowing local groups use a function room foc.  Resident Associations, clubs etc.

These meetings are usually midweek in the evenings.

Generates some business even if its only teas & coffees and a few pints.

Would locals be interested in a battle of the bands or pool competition?


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## aetius

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

That idea of local meetings is a good one. Also some councillors may be open to the idea of using your pub/nightclub as one of their constituency clinics - again this will only be teas etc but your objective is to bring people to your pub who may otherwise not travel.

Plenty of hot snacks e.g. deep-fried onion rings/cocktail sausages at the meetings on top will ensure return visits.

A huge winner at home is a free bus/lift home for customers. I wouldn't charge/police it too heavily - some will abuse it but in the main 95% of people will be glad for the service. It will also appease many people staying at home wondering about their loved ones if they knew they were going to your pub (as opposed to elsewhere). This is probably only sustainable Mon and Thurs/Fri nights unfortunately in the long run.

Our local niteclub had it, he sold on. New owner discontinued it and trade has collapsed by 75-80% conservatively.

Forget Sky, support the local GAA. Yep, one of your more successful competitors probably does this too but people will get tired and switch between pubs - make sure its yours they switch to.

Unsure about 'Battles' or comptetitions. Unfortunately you need to ensure for these a respectable crowd first or else 'word' / negative publicity about how well you're (not) doing will follow.


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## truthseeker

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Hi,
You dont mention if you offer food (besides B&B) - is that a possibility?

And if it is - can you get the place approved by the HSE to hold civil wedding ceremonies, itd be an advertising point and if you could cater to small groups (50ish) people for food and drink it might be worth considering.

For B&B, what is the local draw for the tourists? Golf, walking, scenery, fishing etc... You need to advertise in all the places that are attracting the tourists, plus you need to get your google rankings up so when people search for a B&B in your area on the internet they find you. 

What kind of area are you in? Are there plenty of young people looking to hook up? A common complaint from young people in country towns is that there is nothing to do bar the usual local niteclub - if you could somehoe encourage trade in from a different area (like hens parties), the locals may see your place as somewhere that they can hook up with someone different than the usual crew they see out and about.

Youve got to think about what pulls people into an establishment - sort the heating out!!! If youre renting it can you get the owner to get the heating sorted out?

What about Poker nights? Seems to be a massive draw these days.

My local nightclub started off with a few nights that had things like a magician for an hour doing a show, various dancers (nothing too exotic), they also got a few D list celebs in for an hours promotional work (probably cost a bomb though) - it got people in alright.

To encourage birthdays you need to offer people a reason to come for a birthday, offer them a free platter of food or a few free drinks for the birthday person or 10 people free into niteclub......


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## milkbottle

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

From my experience I would suggest 3 things:

1. Sort out your heating, possibly by getting your landlord to agree to enlarge the fireplace so that you can use 1 metre logs, this is a big hit for atmosphere.

2. Get a 14 seater minibus on the road, work out a route and timetable and get a local retiree as driver (lots of ex-CIE local people have psv licences). You can get a Mercedes Sprinter Minibus for less than 10K. Flyer all the homes in the route area, and get the bus painted up. Charge a nominal fee like €2 towards costs and drive the public to_ *your door only*_, the driver gives them a token which gives them some freebie inside. Then make it so that they cannot use the bus home unless they have a token from the bar (a receipt) of some sort. 

3. Make the nightclub free in except for Saturday night. But tighten the door policy. Give all the good looking girls in the area and KOL's (Key opinion leaders) VIP cards that get them a routine discount at the bar or make a VIP area. KOL's in a country town are all young bar staff in every bar, hairdressers, womens clothes shop assistants, jewelery store staff and so on. Get a velvet rope and get some queues going.

_*Direct the music policy towards girls not lad**s*_, which is what happens mostly through peer pressure. Design a policy and stick it out, make your club cool by sticking to R 'n B, Top 40, House and light Dance.

Get a very strict door policy based on cool, not Farah's nor dress to impress. Try to promote cool by allowing branded jeans and trainers and other NY or European Cosmo looks, i.e Try getting lads to wear the 'Italian uniform' of Diesel or branded jeans, shoes, white shirt and dark jacket. Put a few pics up in the hall outlining some dress codes in pictures.

This might sound like a misfit for the country, but I've found that country young people are just as exposed to pop and celeb culture and want the same style and cool as urbans.

Good luck! It's a fun challenge.


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## ontour

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

The first few months of the year are tough for pubs and this year will probably be even tougher. Trying to win lots of business from lots of angles will probably cost more than you will make. You need to focus on a couple of areas and reduce the cost in other areas.

For example, does it make sense to close the nightclub until suimmer? Can you only open the pub from Thursday to Sunday? On the nights that you are open have something on whether it be live music, poker/ pool competition, trad session etc. etc. Promote the use of the pub for local fundraisers such as Race nights by offering the group an amount of money or free food if they host it with you.

The biggest gap in what you explain above is the food business, as truthseeker pointed out. What is the lunch and evening trade like in the town? What alternatives are there for eating out? Could you provide an alternative such as Italian food?


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## truthseeker

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I thought of something else - can you try to make your pub the venue for things like 'speed dating' and/or advertise yourself on dating websites like maybefriends.ie to see can you get them to hold a group gathering in it?


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## gillarosa

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I'd agree with a lot of the posters, particularly consideration of closing the bar during the winter months during the early part of the week and focusing on the weekend.

The Club has the potential to be busy on Saturday nights, would you consider closing the alcohol side of things and hosting youth musical events / disco's on Friday where only minerals are served?, you wouldn't need an extension as they generally take place between 8 -11, you could charge a modest cover charge and make profit on soft drinks also.


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## mathepac

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



gillarosa said:


> ... would you consider closing the alcohol side of things and hosting youth musical events / disco's on Friday where only minerals are served?, you wouldn't need an extension as they generally take place between 8 -11, you could charge a modest cover charge and make profit on soft drinks also.


Contact local youth groups about organising a "No Name Club", alcohol-free, but with music and dancing for under 18's.

Devise menus for alcohol-free cocktails and lay on cocktail sausages, chicken in a basket, etc. to be included in the entrance fee.

Policing the alcohol-free aspect of the No Name Club is usually done by adult volunteers, who can sift out the "naggin in the knickers" brigade.


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## TLC

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Would it help to make available a pick-up & drop-off service for locals & those that little bit further out?  Also reasonable pub grub mid-week - a "curry & a pint night" for say €12 - may be uselful??  
Best of luck


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## Wollran

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Are "buy one - get one free" type offers allowed in the pub business?  If you gave some sort of voucher at the weekend to the people who normally frequent your pub for free drink during the week, it might entice them into the pub during the quiter time??

Wollran


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## havetoask

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

why not run a pool or darts tournament mid week , or try set up a pool or darts team great way of getting people in and keeping them with you. 
 you dont say where you are but if you name your pub maybe all the members here who are near you might drop in and have a beer.  best of luck


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## Ancutza

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Heres an article from The Guardian newspaper of a few days ago as to how some enterprising UK publicans are trying to buoy-up their businesses. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/03/one-pound-pub-lunch-deals


Maybe it might be something you could also try if you are a bit of a dab hand in the kitchen.


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## dieselhead

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Here are a few answers to some questions several of you asked:

*Food*:
Currently I do breakfast every morning for people staying in the B&B so I have a sign outside letting the public know that they can come in for breakfast also but I only get an average of about 7 people walking in off the street for breakfast and I only charge a modest €7 for a full irish.
I have tried to do food all day i.e. lasangne, sheppards pie, soup, chips, sausages etc for a modest €6-8 per meal but it was to no avail. I was throwing out more then i was selling, prob about 15 meals per week.
The town has 2 indians, 2 italians, 1 chinese, 1 italian bistro, 1 carvery, 1 very expensive steakhouse. But the local hotel does carvery and gets 85% of the lunch time trade and has a grill bar. But saying that it is closing down from Monday to Thursday for the next 8weeks so it will only be open for business fri, sat and sunday. 



*Function Room*:
The place is quite old and in need of a make over quite badly i.e, the seats need recovering, bar and counter needs replacing and the mens toilets need a proper overhaul and also the concrete floors on the way in need a spruce up.
When I first took over I did paint it, put in new lights (disco and mood setting LEDs) and sort the toilets out the best I could without spending thousands which I didnt and still dont have. Anyway back to the point I dont know if its all that suitable for a formal function or even an agm. Probably more suitable for a battle of the bands or anything that can be held under low light.

*Poker/Pool/Darts:*

_Poker_: I did have poker when I first took over as it was there before hand, but they wouldn't play in the pub they played in the nightclub so they pub was still empty and they never bought a huge amount of drink either, out of 25 people I would sell about 30 drinks and there was a few of them that were awful complainers. But I am interested in setting up this again does anyone know how to run a poker league???

_Pool_: The pool league is interesting but there is only one other pub in the town with a pool table because the rest got rid of theirs and this is because the Pool table attracts undesireables if you know who im talking about (they like Elvis, Garth Brooks and horses) I know there all not bad but they have made trouble for me before. Now I have to close the pool table at 8pm Fri,Sat and Sun, but I suppose if I started a pool league and had people register on the QT then maybe I could get away with it. But how do you set up a pool league if theres only 1 other pub team in the town???

_Darts_: I have done nothing with this, people play generally while they are waiting for the pool table. Any Ideas????


*Drink Promotions/Offers*:
As far as I know this is illegal as it promotes binge drinking although I have done a few times in the nightclub to get rid of a few slow selling things. But I saw there someone said ''Curry and a pint night'' this sounds like a good idea I will prob give it a go. Has anyone any more ideas on this topic?

*Sky TV and GAA*:
I do need a way that I can show the football/rugby matches on tv as I have no hope of turning my place into a Hurling pub as my 2 big competitors have a strong hold on the hurling club for example 1 has tradition and the other is a real GAA pub with it being the local for alot of the current hurlers. But I do know that if I can the hurlers in then my place will fill up because the town seems to follow them where ever they go and I do experience this on the Saturday nights, like if they come in I take in an extra €500+ depending on the time of year and day of week.
Does anyone know the cost of ChorusNTL or Setanta Sports is for a pub????


Thanks everyone for your ideas/help and please keep them coming, if anyone has any ideas for fundraising or even wild or wacky ideas dont hold back


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## callybags

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I would suggest as an immediate measure to approach tour landlord/lady and seek a reduction in the rent you are paying. If they see that you are in danger of going out of business I'm sure they would be prepared to work with you in order to keep their own income flowing.


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## dieselhead

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I have found the cost of Setanta Sports which is €194 per month which is far cheaper then Sky at €2000 per month


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## CN624

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dieselhead said:


> I have found the cost of Setanta Sports which is €194 per month which is far cheaper then Sky at €2000 per month



I think you might find that your competitors are not paying €2000 for their Sky package. I know a number of pubs that just use their domestic Sky card in the bar.


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## steph1

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



callybags said:


> I would suggest as an immediate measure to approach tour landlord/lady and seek a reduction in the rent you are paying. If they see that you are in danger of going out of business I'm sure they would be prepared to work with you in order to keep their own income flowing.



This is a good point.  I know a few businesses that have closed down in my area purely because of the outrageous rents that greedy landlords and landladies have been looking for.  I would definitely follow this up.  No harm in asking.


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## becky

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I was at a funeral today and we went back to the local hotel for a meal.  We had a three course meal but honestly soup and mains would have been enough - no choice  - you eat whats put in front of you. Everyone was offered tea and cofee when they came in which was welcome - in the summer offer soft drinks maybe.

There was approx 50 people (she was 97 so that was very small) at say €15 a head is €750 (have no idea). A few stayed on for drinks etc.  Any way you can capture this market?


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## DavyJones

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



CN624 said:


> I think you might find that your competitors are not paying €2000 for their Sky package. I know a number of pubs that just use their domestic Sky card in the bar.



I know one bar that got a huge fine for doing that. If there is no pint glass in corner of screen, it isn't a commericial SKY package.


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## dieselhead

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

My 2 rivals both do have the commercial sky. There is a hefty €5000 fine and you could lose your licence also if you get caught, but then again if you get away with it for a year €5000 is cheaper then €24000. I think I will go with Setanta as it works out only €50pw and it is paid monthly its not a yearly contract and there is loads of sports on this month


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## truthseeker

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dieselhead said:


> Thanks everyone for your ideas/help and please keep them coming, if anyone has any ideas for fundraising or even wild or wacky ideas dont hold back



Wild and wacky? How about a stripper? Wonder do you need a special license for that?

Function room - any chance of running table quizes? Charge for the table, use some of that to buy prizes and then let them buy drinks for the night themselves.

Karaoke was very popular in one of my locals at one point - they had a cheap karaoke machine and the drunk punters loved it.


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## contemporary

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dieselhead said:


> My 2 rivals both do have the commercial sky. There is a hefty €5000 fine and you could lose your licence also if you get caught, but then again if you get away with it for a year €5000 is cheaper then €24000. I think I will go with Setanta as it works out only €50pw and it is paid monthly its not a yearly contract and there is loads of sports on this month



Have you actually got a quote off sky or are you just basing it on their website?


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## dieselhead

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I actually got a quote back when I first opened in April it was something like €1768 per month


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## barryl

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I am not in the pub trade but I think you are banging your head off a brick wall with such a small population of 2000 people.Sorry


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## bleary

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

You have the right amount of rooms available could you look into organising hens /stags offer a package with some activities organised locally ?


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## putsch

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Dance classes are wildly popular in Dublin. Especially salsa. Girls love it and a young colleague was telling me his friends took it up to meet girls. If you could get a local teacher and split the class fee it might be worth looking at.

Some friends did set dancing classes in autumn in Churchtown - about 40+ people a night upstairs in a pub. 10 euro each - 1 teacher and taped music. Don't know what the split was between the teacher and the pub.


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## sprokit

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

How do you calculate the amount you have to pay to sky?
It seems like extortion to me. I know sports are a big draw to a pub but this just seems ridiculous.


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## SteH

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Considering you're in a small enough town it would be tough to get any sort of a decent crowd in during the weeks but I suggest a poker night or something similar to this, a quiz or karaoke either. You could also try bingo for a laugh. If you had a quirky enough angle it could get a younger crowd. A DJ or a band would also be good. You could also do deals for 21st parties where you supply the food or the DJ or something for free. 

It's good to see that you are actively looking to improve as many landlords aren't and they will suffer as a result. Best of luck.


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## Feardorcha

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

How about sponsoring your local soccer/GAA team,initially it would cost a bit but from my experience it would pay long term. Generally if a certain pub does this then all the players tend to support the pub more,ie 15-20 fellas after most matches which in turn might bring in supporters of the team.


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## allthedoyles

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dieselhead said:


> The other pubs serve late (and dont get a bar extention and get away with it!!!) when the nightclub is open so the people dont leave their place to come to mine.


 
This is something that must be tackled .................This is destroying businesses in many towns through-out Ireland .................

You need a level playing field , and it is not fair that some pubs can have an advantage over you due to lack policing ...etc 

Also , could you possibly increase your profits by going to.............NEWRY for those soft drinks !! ..............It a popular suggestion here on aam


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## Bob_tg

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dieselhead said:


> But I saw there someone said ''Curry and a pint night'' this sounds like a good idea I will prob give it a go. Has anyone any more ideas on this topic?



I know of a small village pub that does a steak/beer for only €7 on a Tuesday.  The place seems to fill up pretty good for a Tuesday night.

Here are some other thoughts:

*Smoking Room*

Make your smoking room the best one in town.  If you don't have one, create one - put candles on the tables and give it atmosphere - and put a tv with heater out there as well !!!

*B&B/ Accommodation*

What's your occupany percentage of your B&B rooms?  Try different price points for your rooms:

bed only;
bed and breakfast;
bed and breakfast and evening meal
Also, have you considered converting room to apartment(s)?

*Marketing*

Promotions:  can you reciprocate business with any nearby trade?  For example, if someone spends €10 euro in your pub, they get a €2 voucher for the local video store.

Customer Retention: Make sure your existing clientele don't leave, or will always come back.  Give out free sambos and cocktail sausages at "strategically hungry" points in the evening.  Leave complementary popcorn/snacks available at all times.

Differentiation from competition: sell something the competition doesn't have.  How about some local micro-brewed beer?  Bottled imports?  Polish beer?  Or how about something completely radical...convert part of your premises in to a small wine bar/bistro.  More boringly, but essential: get the best coffee machine in town - get a coffee connoisseur to certify it for you!  In the summer, get a juicer (and advertise it on a hoarding/ or on the window).

Scan the environment and make a list of all groups.  See if they'll respond to offers.  Some have been already mentioned (e.g. residents' assoc).  Any others?  Local choir, teachers, local businesses....

Good luck!!


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## dieselhead

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



sprokit said:


> How do you calculate the amount you have to pay to sky?
> It seems like extortion to me. I know sports are a big draw to a pub but this just seems ridiculous.


Sky calculate it for you by ''non-residential rateable value'' check out this link 
http://business.sky.com/page.asp?name=pricing_pubs_and_clubs


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## bigpaddy_irl

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

As a long time user of pubs and long time employee of Sky here is my two cents:

The main things I and my fellow drinking pals look out for in a pub is as follows:

1) Warm building with a solid fuel fire in there somewhere. Everyone loves the warmth and just the look of a nice warm fire blazing in the background. Definitley get your heating sorted.

2)Clean toilets...this is a must. 90% of the pubs I go into have bad or neglected toilets. Nothing as bad as lifting your jeans up when heading into these places.

3) FREE finger food given our randomly every few nights, at weekends a must. its a nice surprise and puts you in good numour. Its not gonna cost anymore than €100 for a few cocktail sausages and chicken wings.

4) Music on a WEDNESDAY night. There is a pub in my town as big as yours and they always have the same guy in, just one guy, signing and doing a bit or Karaoke. Believe it or not, it draws in as much as a Saturday night.

5) No football is like having no beer. I believe this is one of your greatest problems. Go back to sky again and get a new price, they calculate your monthly subscription in conjunction with your yearly takings.
Give Chourus a call, they are a lot cheaper too.

6) Dont be so strick at closing time, you dont get anywhere in this country unless you bend the rules a little bit.

7) Poker machine, not essential but a help too.


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## Silvergirl

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

'Dancing for pleasure' or 'Club Solo' nights? These are a huge hit with the elder lemons of the surrounding hinterland in county areas, usually on a Sunday night.

Many county pubs in the middle of no where run these if they have any bit of a function room. Most are frequented by tee-totalers so you wouldn't need to provide a bus. CD's with an old time dj who prob wouldn't cost a bomb or a one man band would suffice.

You have decent mark up on minerals and could charge a nominal door fee (2 - 4 euro) to cover the dj or one man band costs, and no need for extension either.  The ones I know of have 'decent' guest live bands now and again (to suit the crowd, with higher cover charge) I know people in Cork city that travel to a pub outside Mallow for these nights and my 77 yr old dad goes twice a week to 2 different places along with about 10 of his cronies, the places are jam packed. He also plays cards (45) on at least 2 other nights a week they have tournaments and competitions with pubs in neighbouring towns, so are there other like minded publicans that you could start a bit of banter with to give you a good night one week and them a turn the following week or something? Ye could split the cost of hiring a mini bus or something? 

You could target the gaa pub in that area to partner with and that would help draw the gaa crowd to your pub for the bit of craic and rivalry. The same with gaa themed pub quizzes, stick in local gaa trivia or offer to do a fund raiser for the club, chances are they are getting funding of some description from the other pubs to merit their support. Jerseys, etc. 

You might think of sponsoring the underage team jerseys - again with the teen discos as means of support, you could call it a fund raiser. Parents/ club members would be willing to support if it was in aid of themselves! 

HTH and best of luck, it ain't easy out there.


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## sprokit

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

This topic has really struck a chord. Irish people love to drink. 
If you owned the business and had capital you could invest it to improve the pub. Improvements require money and that is the bottom line.
Apart from that, customer satisfaction is the cheapest and most effective way to improve turnover. You really need to lick some customers hole, others just want a smile and recognition. No doubt you know that already. I have been in the trade for ten years and i have observed many publicans who do not appreciate their customers and staff.
Happy customers = higher turnover. Unhappy staff = unhappy customers.




dieselhead said:


> Sky calculate it for you by ''non-residential rateable value'' check out this link
> http://business.sky.com/page.asp?name=pricing_pubs_and_clubs



Thanks. I seen the link. I think i understand rates(Basically a local council tax depending on the annual rental value of a commercial property) but what is meant by the non-residential part?
Is the OP charged so much because the business includes a BandB and a nightclub? This seems unfair because the nightclub will not have use for a sky tv package.


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## dtlyn

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Possibly for one or two nights a week.

There's a very loyal niche of people that will travel long distances to see house/techno/minimal DJs practice/learn their trades. There's no shortage of djs around the country who would drive to play, and you could charge at the door and strike a minimum ticket sales to play type deal with them. 

Mabye devote one of your slower nights to it, e.g. Thursdays and Fridays are popular with this crowd. 

You could expand your remit to neigbouring towns and offer cheap rooms to interested parties. Or if you're within bussing distance of a university town, as mentioned before, contact the university student union and offer a student night once a week?

With respect to football. Of late Setanta has been showing all the Saturday games on Setanta Ireland ( part of basic NTL pack ) coupled with champions league tues and wed ( also on  RTE ). 

However, don't underestimate the popularity of other sports and TV shows e.g. 

Boxing - Can never find a pub to see a fight
X-Factor / Strictly Come Dancing / Big Brother
NFL ( American Football )
Spanish Football

You could possibly do some promotion around these too?


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## MrMan

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

My local ran a pub lotto where entry was free, you signed your name and became a member of the pub and your name was included in the weekly draw. Week 1 was for €100 and the draw was friday night if the person pulled out wasn't present they couldn't claim their prize and the money was added to the next draw and so on. It proved a great draw with the prize money capped at €1500 there were some gasps when a name was pulled out only for the guy to have left the pub 10 mins earlier and it created a great crowd and real buzz. It will only cost you €100 per week and have a set time i.e draw takes place between 9-12pm on Friday and draw it at differing times each week.


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## Romulan

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I'd certainly choose your pub on the basis of "guest" beers being something of a beer fan.  Too many pubs just go for the boring standard.

Couple that with say a poker night and you can have my money.
I'll skip on the X Factor thanks, sports or news only and I don't mean Sky News either.


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## rabbit

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dieselhead said:


> I actually got a quote back when I first opened in April it was something like €1768 per month


 If sky costs that much forget it...thats one ero per month for every man, woman + child in your catchment area !
I know many people who will not go in to a pub if there is a tv in the corner.  Its a killer of conversation.   Get rid of it.  Get a real good open fire going.


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## Yellow Belly

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I am a former publican so the advice which I am going to give you is from experience- I still have the t-shirt somewhere!!

I think I get the picture of where you are at- absolutely nothing happening during the week with a bit of a stir about at the weekends. If you were to look at even closer it more likely is that Sat night is good with just ok Fri & Sun?

The 1st piece of advice which I will give you is: CLOSE THE PUB FROM MON-THUR/FRI!
There is no point in being open when there is no business there. You can run all the poker/darts/pool you like but it won't cover the cost of turning on the light. Do the maths-
20 customers having 5 pints each at €4.50 = €450 Gross takings. Taking VAT out of that & using a profit margin of 55% leaves €203.70 profit- now pay light, heat, wages out of that? By staying closed when business is dead you are SAVING money.

How much in staff wages would you save by not opening during the week?

2nd piece of advice- set up a website, advertise in local paper/radio, in your front window & in your nite club- that your premises is available to book exclusively for 21st birthday parties on Fri nights & also Thur nights during the Summer.

These are a gold mine! Offer the room hire free of charge- they can do their own food or you can arrange it for approx. €5 per head- they provide their own entertainment (DJ/Band- whatever they want) The only thing to insist on is that they must pay your security men.

If you can craic the 21st party market it is unreal. Effectively what you will have is a room filled with usually 200-300 people drinking their heads off & it hasn't cost you a penny to get them in there- balance this against what it usually costs you to get 300 people in?

In the winter months I would only open on Fri nights when I had a party booked it- other than that I would either leave it closed or open with very small staff. Even if you stayed closed for the entire week- have you ever worked your figures for just Sat night?

Example:

250 people @ €8 cover charge


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## Yellow Belly

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I am a former publican so the advice which I am going to give you is from experience- I still have the t-shirt somewhere!!

I think I get the picture of where you are at- absolutely nothing happening during the week with a bit of a stir about at the weekends. If you were to look at even closer it more likely is that Sat night is good with just ok Fri & Sun?

The 1st piece of advice which I will give you is: CLOSE THE PUB FROM MON-THUR/FRI!
There is no point in being open when there is no business there. You can run all the poker/darts/pool you like but it won't cover the cost of turning on the light. Do the maths-
20 customers having 5 pints each at €4.50 = €450 Gross takings. Taking VAT out of that & using a profit margin of 55% leaves €203.70 profit- now pay light, heat, wages out of that? By staying closed when business is dead you are SAVING money.

How much in staff wages would you save by not opening during the week?

2nd piece of advice- set up a website, advertise in local paper/radio, in your front window & in your nite club- that your premises is available to book exclusively for 21st birthday parties on Fri nights & also Thur nights during the Summer.

These are a gold mine! Offer the room hire free of charge- they can do their own food or you can arrange it for approx. €5 per head- they provide their own entertainment (DJ/Band- whatever they want) The only thing to insist on is that they must pay your security men.

If you can craic the 21st party market it is unreal. Effectively what you will have is a room filled with usually 200-300 people drinking their heads off & it hasn't cost you a penny to get them in there- balance this against what it usually costs you to get 300 people in?

In the winter months I would only open on Fri nights when I had a party booked it- other than that I would either leave it closed or open with very small staff. Even if you stayed closed for the entire week- have you ever worked your figures for just Sat night?

Example:

250 people @ €8 cover charge is €2,000
Average spend in a crowd of 250 is usually €25 = €6250
Taking VAT & a margin of 55% this leaves a sales profit of €2829 plus €2000 is a total profit of €4829 for the night.

If you didn't open any other night of the week you couldn't lose any of the above profit.

If you add 1 21st party per week with 200 people spending €25 you add an additional €2263 in net profit.

Final advice
You can waste all the money & time you want arranging events in the bar but to be perfectly honest in the current environment- you haven't a hope! Concentrate on reducing you costs to as near zero as possible, while only incuring these costs when there is business there to be done. 

Forget bands & expensive entertainment unless you are getting 1.5 times the cost of the entertainment in cover charges as otherwise you are a busy fool- pub packed- sweat dripping off you but the band are the ones making the big money- does that sound familar?

All the best with it & if you want to pm me feel free


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## parkmagic

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



Yellow Belly said:


> I am a former publican so the advice which I am going to give you is from experience- I still have the t-shirt somewhere!!
> 
> I think I get the picture of where you are at- absolutely nothing happening during the week with a bit of a stir about at the weekends. If you were to look at even closer it more likely is that Sat night is good with just ok Fri & Sun?
> 
> The 1st piece of advice which I will give you is: CLOSE THE PUB FROM MON-THUR/FRI!
> There is no point in being open when there is no business there. You can run all the poker/darts/pool you like but it won't cover the cost of turning on the light. Do the maths-
> 20 customers having 5 pints each at €4.50 = €450 Gross takings. Taking VAT out of that & using a profit margin of 55% leaves €203.70 profit- now pay light, heat, wages out of that? By staying closed when business is dead you are SAVING money.
> 
> How much in staff wages would you save by not opening during the week?
> 
> 2nd piece of advice- set up a website, advertise in local paper/radio, in your front window & in your nite club- that your premises is available to book exclusively for 21st birthday parties on Fri nights & also Thur nights during the Summer.
> 
> These are a gold mine! Offer the room hire free of charge- they can do their own food or you can arrange it for approx. €5 per head- they provide their own entertainment (DJ/Band- whatever they want) The only thing to insist on is that they must pay your security men.
> 
> If you can craic the 21st party market it is unreal. Effectively what you will have is a room filled with usually 200-300 people drinking their heads off & it hasn't cost you a penny to get them in there- balance this against what it usually costs you to get 300 people in?
> 
> In the winter months I would only open on Fri nights when I had a party booked it- other than that I would either leave it closed or open with very small staff. Even if you stayed closed for the entire week- have you ever worked your figures for just Sat night?
> 
> Example:
> 
> 250 people @ €8 cover charge is €2,000
> Average spend in a crowd of 250 is usually €25 = €6250
> Taking VAT & a margin of 55% this leaves a sales profit of €2829 plus €2000 is a total profit of €4829 for the night.
> 
> If you didn't open any other night of the week you couldn't lose any of the above profit.
> 
> If you add 1 21st party per week with 200 people spending €25 you add an additional €2263 in net profit.
> 
> Final advice
> You can waste all the money & time you want arranging events in the bar but to be perfectly honest in the current environment- you haven't a hope! Concentrate on reducing you costs to as near zero as possible, while only incuring these costs when there is business there to be done.
> 
> Forget bands & expensive entertainment unless you are getting 1.5 times the cost of the entertainment in cover charges as otherwise you are a busy fool- pub packed- sweat dripping off you but the band are the ones making the big money- does that sound familar?
> 
> All the best with it & if you want to pm me feel free


 

No advice to offer, but the above advice seems excellent to me from someone who as they said has "bought the t Shirt".  Interesting thread and the above advice seems the most helpful to me.


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## ontour

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



Yellow Belly said:


> Example:
> 
> 250 people @ €8 cover charge is €2,000
> Average spend in a crowd of 250 is usually €25 = €6250
> Taking VAT & a margin of 55% this leaves a sales profit of €2829 plus €2000 is a total profit of €4829 for the night.
> 
> If you didn't open any other night of the week you couldn't lose any of the above profit.
> 
> If you add 1 21st party per week with 200 people spending €25 you add an additional €2263 in net profit.


 
I am a bit confused with the above suggestion?  What are the 250 people paying €8 for?  I am really interested to know what gets people to pay in to a pub and appears to cost the publican nothing.

I would be interested to know from other people in the trade whether €25 is an average spend per customer in a small town, I would have thought that it was between €10-15.


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## Yellow Belly

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I am a bit confused with the above suggestion? What are the 250 people paying €8 for? I am really interested to know what gets people to pay in to a pub and appears to cost the publican nothing.

I would be interested to know from other people in the trade whether €25 is an average spend per customer in a small town, I would have thought that it was between €10-15. 

The €8 cover charge is for admission to his nite club on a Sat night- this is even cheap- most nite clubs are now €10+ due to the cost of extensions to 2.30am etc. 

To solve your confusion- the only entry charge is for the Sat nite when he has his nite club open. As explained by the original poster it costs him approx. €1400 to operate for that one night to cover entertainment, security, staff, bar extensions etc- the cover charge is to off set these costs.

To get 250 people into your club/pub costing you nothing (or close to nothing) is by hosting 21st birthday parties. Give them the venue etc free & they can bring the crowd.

The average spend during regular hours in a pub would normally be approx. €15, however in anite club situation (vodka/red bulls etc etc) the average spend increases to approx. €25. 

To be honest most people outside the bar industry have NO IDEA how difficult it is to make ends meet in a pub. Everyone wants the entertainment, the lighting & sound systems, the warm cosy heat, the nice toilets, the sport on TV etc etc etc- but not one customer would have a clue of how much that actually costs to provide in addition to the other associated costs which the publican is hit by-

Insurance- average bar approx. €6-10k per annum increasing to €30k average small town nite club & into €100k for larger nite clubs
Water- it may seem unbeleivable but water rates for the average pub would cost approx- €7-12k per annum
Disposal of glass/bottles- average cost for regular bar approx. €5k per annum
Bar extensions- for bar or nite club approx. €575 per night with legal costs etc
IMRO/PIP fees- royalties for having a TV/radio or background music approx. €3k per annum- this could cost nite clubs up to €20k per annum

The above is not a whinge on behalf of publicans as I no longer own one (thank god!!!) it is just to try to explain to the general public the unseen costs of running a bar. To be honest if you ever see a bar providing entertainment (bands/DJs/Karoke etc) free of charge, and the place is mobbed- have a decent bet that the business will close down within 18 months!! Everyone assumes that as there is a big crowd in & the drink is flying that the publican is in the money- OPTICAL ILLUSION!

If the band/DJ/Karoke is costing €500 with security €250 & no bar extension- the publican needs to sell €1650 of booze just to pay those costs alone. This does not account for staff, insurance, light/heat, mortgage etc etc etc

Owning a bar is madness- the only people who have any chance of making a decent living out of a bar is someone who inherited one with no borrowings! Best of luck to them- there is only one side of the bar to be on & thats as a customer!


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## dieselhead

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Yellow Belly thank you someone that knows the whole story with all the real costs. Everyone in the town thinks that when I charge €10 into the nightclub and they see 200+ people in there think im milking them and even when I tell them all the costs they are never convinced!!!!


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## Stapeler

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Have you got car parking spaces? I'm a member of a Motorcaravan club who have a "Tavern Trail". It's a list of Motorhome friendly pubs/restraunts around the country that offer a place to park for the night. I've used this quiet a bit, typically we stop off at a pub with a few friends, go for a dinner and pints and stay in the car park. If you have the space it's certainly worth considering, free advertisment and a lot or repeat business.


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## Yellow Belly

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Hi Dieselhead
Spoke to another friend in the trade last night who has closed his bar during the weekdays & now only opens on Sat nights (& Bank Holiday Sundays). He has done management accounts from Sept-Nov 2008 (which wouldn't normally be great months) & his bottom line profitability increased by 46%. This is mainly as his expenses were cut dramatically & his wage bill is now less than €300 on an average week, while he is still turning over approx. €8-10k per week from parties & one night of club.

He got his son to set up a web site & used the site to offer FREE 21st birthday parties- exclusive use of the property for their party i.e. not having to share with regulars etc- their own choice of entertainment & food (at their own expense).

He advertised the website & this party deal in his front windows while the bar is closed & also did one local ad. He said it took about 4-5 weeks to get it of the ground but he now has 19 21st's alone booked for this year up to July. He has also had leaving parties, wedding anniversaries & work parties- all because they could book the entire premises out.

You should give this idea serious consideration & try to infiltrate this market- even if it meant you had to offer complimentary champagne & drinks to the birthday boy or girl!

You sound like a pro-active guy anyway so I'm sure you will do ok- best of luck!


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## Yellow Belly

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Hi Dieselhead
Spoke to another friend in the trade last night who has closed his bar during the weekdays & now only opens on Sat nights (& Bank Holiday Sundays). He has done management accounts from Sept-Nov 2008 (which wouldn't normally be great months) & his bottom line profitability increased by 46%. This is mainly as his expenses were cut dramatically & his wage bill is now less than €300 on an average week, while he is still turning over approx. €8-10k per week from parties & one night of club.

He got his son to set up a web site & used the site to offer FREE 21st birthday parties- exclusive use of the property for their party i.e. not having to share with regulars etc- their own choice of entertainment & food (at their own expense).

He advertised the website & this party deal in his front windows while the bar is closed & also did one local ad. He said it took about 4-5 weeks to get it of the ground but he now has 19 21st's alone booked for this year up to July. He has also had leaving parties, wedding anniversaries & work parties- all because they could book the entire premises out.

You should give this idea serious consideration & try to infiltrate this market- even if it meant you had to offer complimentary champagne & drinks to the birthday boy or girl!

You sound like a pro-active guy anyway so I'm sure you will do ok- best of luck!


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## dewdrop

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Very little mention of the drink price. in these tough times a good cheap pint can attract business and favourable comment in my view


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## Complainer

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dieselhead said:


> The pub is old and is nearly impossible to heat in the winter even though I have an open fire and 2 electric heaters but you would still need to keep your jumper on. The worst thing is all the other pubs are very warm and cosy so when people come into my place after being in one of the other pubs my place feels so cold.


I'm not a huge pub user, but this sounds like a huge issue to me. Particularly if there are only a few people in the pub, a cold room is  just not enticing.


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## krissovo

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

I pub I visit in Cork City was always quiet but the landlord recently stuck a Wii in there and now during the week there is a steady amount of people playing Wii Sports.  He recently held a Wii boxing tournament and that went well.  A Wii might raise the temperature a bit as well with all that moving about.  Irronicly its mostly midle aged and the older generation who keep coming to play it with the stundents hogging it until 9pm.


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## j26

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dewdrop said:


> Very little mention of the drink price. in these tough times a good cheap pint can attract business and favourable comment in my view



This was one of my first thoughts too.

Why not drop the price a bit for Monday-Thursday?  The people who drink these nights are more likely to be regular drinkers, and a bit more price sensitive.  I'm thinking particularly of the 3-4 pints a night brigade, of which every town has a few.  Get them in and you have a regular and steady source of revenue which you can build further with the promotions and activities suggested by the other posters.

The heating sounds like an issue.  People want to have their pint in comfort  Is there a way to partition it off a bit so that the front part of the bar can be heated effectively?  That way the smaller crowds during the week can have their comfort, but you still have the space for the weekend.  Closing off part of the pub during the week would make the place look fuller too, and people would be more encouraged to come in.


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## dieselhead

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Yellow belly thanks a million you have been more than helpful, the only thing is that if i close from monday to friday I will miss out on the B&B aspect of my business although during these quite months its not paying enough to have someone in there. I am considering just opening fri, sat and sunday. About getting the 21st's I do have a few booked in but nowhere near 19!!! How does your friend attract so many to his pub do ya know??


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## rabbit

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dewdrop said:


> Very little mention of the drink price. in these tough times a good cheap pint can attract business and favourable comment in my view


 
True.  That and a cosy, warm atmosphere.


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## MichaelBurke

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Hi dieselhead,

Sorry to hear it's difficult but hope it turns around for you.

A lot depends on the type of punters you want through the door but food during the day is a big bonus for your guys. Maybe even a local lunch delivery service, soup and sandwiches only. Or other simple foods, stew etc.

Maybe a 'drop home' service at 11.30 during the weeks, do it for a trial period?

Look at all your outgoings under a microscope (can't help with the tv one, don't know much there). Just from my own experience I looked at all mine over the last 12 months and have made considerable savings. I have also noticed it (spoke about this in another thread) but I'm in insurance and have noticed people are shopping around more, I've found this good for my business as have picked up business where others haven't been doing their jobs efficiently.

Any point in trying a student night or are there none near?

Hope it turns around for you.

Michael


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## MandaC

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

There has been some really good advice on this thread, I am sorry to hear you are struggling as you seem to have a really good business attitude and willing to make things work.

Firstly, you need to reduce your outgoings.  Get a rent reduction.  Assess the market - if you fold, is anyone likely to take on the lease?   Check out the property market - what would be the going rate for renting a pub with your turnover? This will give you breathing space.  Also, look at the premises realistically, are there any essential repairs which should be undertaken by the landlord.

Secondly, assess your market realistically.  

What exactly is your target market? 
What is the area like in general? General economic outlook/etc.
How is your premises  currently percieved by locals?
Is there a tourist trade?  
Lunch/breakfast trade?  No offence, but if your premises is a bit run down/scruffy, it will be putting some people off eating there.  
Staff - this is linked back to another recommendation about getting key people into your nightclub - ie if you have a staff member who is a "leader"/trendy person locally, this can also help attract some business in.

Good luck with it.


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## elgransenor

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Talk to your landlord re rent reduction.

It is a buyer's market and I was the landlord in a similar situation to yours and I would have done anything to hold on to my tenant.

If you went wallop where does that leave him and his asset?


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## sprokit

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



MrMan said:


> My local ran a pub lotto where entry was free, you signed your name and became a member of the pub and your name was included in the weekly draw.


Sorry to be pedantic, but i am fairly certain that lotteries are illegal unless permission is obtained from the gardai. Might be worth noting.

Can anyone elaborate on gross and net profits in the drink and food industries?
I have seen figures between 5-10%. Would these figures include deductions for mortgages/lease?


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## Yellow Belly

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



dieselhead said:


> Yellow belly thanks a million you have been more than helpful, the only thing is that if i close from monday to friday I will miss out on the B&B aspect of my business although during these quite months its not paying enough to have someone in there. I am considering just opening fri, sat and sunday. About getting the 21st's I do have a few booked in but nowhere near 19!!! How does your friend attract so many to his pub do ya know??


 
Hi Dieselhead,

To get the 21st birthdays- they are targeting them through their nite club- they set up a members system with card etc offering entrance all nights for €6- this gave them dates of birthday, mobile numbers & email addresses from membership forms. It also helped that his son is approx. 21 so he would know a lot of the crowd.

He also advertised in his local rag, and more importantly in his front windows with large signs during the week when he was closed. He was saying that parties are like mushrooms- once you get a few- many people at the same party will be 21 within weeks/months & they tend to use where their friends used. He also says that he makes a big fuss of the birthday boy/girl- i.e. complimentary (sparkling wine) I mean champagne, flowers for the girls, card with 50-100 euro, etc- says he can well afford this compared to the normal costs of getting that many people into the place.

In his opinion he also feels that the fact that he offers "exclusive" use of the premises i.e. they don't have to share with regulars etc etc is very attractive to bookings- no gate crashers etc etc

A bar is now a maths exam- if the numbers are not right you have no chance. 90% of bars in the entire country are loss making from Mon-Thur put people feel like they have to open- YOU DON'T!!! Only open when there is business to be done & if you can develop this business from parties or other areas which don't cost you a fortune to stage then you will survive.


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## simplyjoe

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*

Excellent thread. I am recommending every one of my publican clients to read it. Previous poster already mentioned you should seek a rent reduction with immeditiate effect. To a landlord a lower rent is better than no rent. As a past publican I sympathise with you. You do seem to be a proactive guy. Interesting suggestions the Wii and the website.


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## dontaskme

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



sprokit said:


> Sorry to be pedantic, but i am fairly certain that lotteries are illegal unless permission is obtained from the gardai. Might be worth noting.
> 
> Can anyone elaborate on gross and net profits in the drink and food industries?
> I have seen figures between 5-10%. Would these figures include deductions for mortgages/lease?



 Gross profit should be about 55-60%. Net depends on a lot of things. A publican who runs a bar himself with little or no staff will likely have a very different net% figure to a superpub in Dublin.


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## Yellow Belly

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



tonytnt said:


> hi i think i can help you in a lot of ways please e mail me straight away tonyjjmoran@hotmail.com


 
Hope you have the franchise on "Rent a Crowd"!!!! LOL


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## Complainer

*Re: Rented Pub struggling.......Please help!!!*



tonytnt said:


> hi i think i can help you in a lot of ways please e mail me straight away tonyjjmoran@hotmail.com


Hi Tony - Why not share your suggestions with the rest of us, so the OP can benefit from a broad discussion?


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