# Garda pay



## Purple (25 Oct 2016)

I the discussion about pay for the gardai has anyone calculated what the weekly value of their pension is? Remember they retire at 55.
I remember in 2009 the average value of their pension fund at retirement was €1,100,000. What would someone have to put into their fund each week for 30 years to get a fund that size?
The average pension is over  with the average tax free lump sum at over €100,000.
What would that cost a month? 
Taking that into account what's their real income?

Do the headline figures we hear include pensionable expenses? If it's pensionable then it's income.


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## Firefly (25 Oct 2016)

Purple said:


> I the discussion about pay for the gardai has anyone calculated what the weekly value of their pension is? Remember they retire at 55.
> I remember in 2009 the average value of their pension fund at retirement was €1,100,000. What would someone have to put into their fund each week for 30 years to get a fund that size?
> The average pension is over  with the average tax free lump sum at over €100,000.
> What would that cost a month?
> ...



There was a recently-retired Garda on Claire Byrne last night (giving out) who looked younger than me!


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## Firefly (25 Oct 2016)

Purple said:


> The average pension is over  with the average tax free lump sum at over €100,000.



Another question I would like the answer to. Do public servants even meet the cost of their lump-sum, never mind the pension itself?


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## elacsaplau (25 Oct 2016)

The reality is that Garda pay is shocking - not at all what it should be. That's why when vacancies for new recruits are advertised, there is essentially zero interest from the general public because the pay and conditions, actual and deferred, are so awful.


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## Purple (25 Oct 2016)

elacsaplau said:


> The reality is that Garda pay is shocking - not at all what it should be. That's why when vacancies for new recruits are advertised, there is essentially zero interest from the general public because the pay and conditions, actual and deferred, are so awful.



There are almost 30 applicants for each vacancy in the force. Hardly what I'd call no interest.

*New recruits pay-scale below:*

*Garda Recruits*

*on Attestation at 32 weeks        €23,750*

*Year 1    €25,472
Year 2    €28,302
Year 3    €29,834
Year 4    €32,407
Year 5    €35,840
Year 6    €38,110
Year 7    €40,163
Year 8    €42,138
Year 9    €42,138
Year 10  €42,138
Year 11  €42,138
Year 12  €42,138
Year 13  €43,857
Year 14  €43,857
Year 15  €43,857
Year 16  €43,857
Year 17  €43,857
Year 18  €43,857
Year 19  €45,793*


This link shows that allowances add between 25 and 30% to their salary and overtime can also be worked.
We should also take into account the fact that they can retire so young and the corresponding pension cost and therefore its value. Should that be another 30 or 40% onto the value of their package? 
I don't know what the average real income for new recruits is but the €23,750 figure is a lie. It would be nice to see the truth being reported in these matters. 

I think they should be well paid and that they generally do an excellent job but why not have the discussion honestly? In my opinion they should be paid more than teachers and nurses but being able to retire in your early 50's is a massive bonus.


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## elacsaplau (25 Oct 2016)

Purple said:


> There are almost 30 applicants for each vacancy in the force. Hardly what I'd call no interest.



My point exactly - although admittedly, you adopted a more straightforward approach to highlighting how attractive the "market" views the role! (I thought my sarcasm was sufficiently obvious!)  Actually, upon reflection, my post was just silly! 



Purple said:


> I think they should be well paid and that they generally do an excellent job but why not have the discussion honestly? In my opinion they should be paid more than teachers and nurses.....



Now - I am being serious - I think it is very debatable that they
1. Generally do an excellent job, and
2. Should be paid more than nurses and teachers


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## Delboy (25 Oct 2016)

Q2 CSO Stats
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...urcostsq12016finalq22016preliminaryestimates/


> Three of the seven public sector sub-sectors had annual increases in average weekly earnings, with an_ Garda Siochána_recording the largest rise of 4.7% from €1,245.30 to €1,304.11 in the year to Q2 2016....
> ...An_ Garda Siochána _had the next highest earnings with average hourly earnings in the year to Q2 2016 of €30.52 and also worked the longest hours of 42.7 hours.



Garda Siochana 2016Q2
Employment (Number) 12800
Average Hourly Earnings excluding Irregular Earnings (Euro) 25.04
Average Weekly Earnings (Euro) 1304.11
Average Hourly Earnings (Euro) 30.52
Average Weekly Paid Hours (Hours) 42.7
Average hourly irregular earnings (Euro) 5.48
Average hourly other labour costs (Euro) 2.42
Average hourly total labour costs (Euro) 32.93

So average annual income of €68k. Not bad at all and retirement with pension after 30 years as the icing on the cake.
Also, can a monetary value also be applied to them getting free entry, without queing,  to Coppers and other nightclubs around the country


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## Purple (26 Oct 2016)

If the pay and pension is so attractive for older members of the force why are they not offering to take a very small reduction in pay in order to level out the pay for newer members? 

I suppose the same can be said for teachers. Maybe a very small reduction in pensions for retired teachers and Gardai could be introduced so that newer recruits get the same pay and conditions as existing members?


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## elacsaplau (26 Oct 2016)

Purple said:


> If the pay and pension is so attractive for older members of the force why are they not offering to take a very small reduction in pay in order to level out the pay for newer members?



...coz that's not the way things work around here, boy!


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## Firefly (26 Oct 2016)

Purple said:


> If the pay and pension is so attractive for older members of the force why are they not offering to take a very small reduction in pay in order to level out the pay for newer members?
> 
> I suppose the same can be said for teachers. Maybe a very small reduction in pensions for retired teachers and Gardai could be introduced so that newer recruits get the same pay and conditions as existing members?




Why should they when they can just go on strike and let everyone else pick up the tab?

As I've said before, the last time I wasn't happy with my pay & benefits I looked for a different job.


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## Vanessa (31 Oct 2016)

Any group of workers who seek to better themselves will be attacked by someone. In this world if you want something you go out and get it yourself. No one else will give it to you.
Be it nurses  teachers  guards tram drivers no one was running around saying to give them a pay rise.
Many ofthose criticising the unions are tax dodgers in the private sector who feature on every list from Revenue


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## Delboy (31 Oct 2016)

Vanessa said:


> Many ofthose criticising the unions are tax dodgers in the private sector who feature on every list from Revenue


Wow


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## Purple (1 Nov 2016)

Vanessa said:


> Any group of workers who seek to better themselves will be attacked by someone.


 Bettering yourself is not the same thing as looking for more money to do the same job.


Vanessa said:


> In this world if you want something you go out and get it yourself. No one else will give it to you.


 Or you could earn it rather than just looking for more money for doing the same job. 


Vanessa said:


> Be it nurses  teachers  guards tram drivers no one was running around saying to give them a pay rise.


 That's because all of them, with the exception of nurses, are regarded as well paid and there are dozens of people queuing up for every available job. That tells us that they are paid at or above an open market rate. 



Vanessa said:


> Many of those criticising the unions are tax dodgers in the private sector who feature on every list from Revenue


 Upon what do you base that assumption?


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## Gerry Canning (2 Nov 2016)

I just can,t see that Garda pay is that bad.
It appears they genuinely appear to believe they are hard done by v other sectors.
If so ,can they please join the long {hard done by queue} !


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## Purple (2 Nov 2016)

Maybe they should be paid more but the BS that they are on €410 a week is well, BS.


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## Sunny (2 Nov 2016)

Purple said:


> Maybe they should be paid more but the BS that they are on €410 a week is well, BS.



I don't think anyone is claiming that's what they all earn as standard. However, I recently saw the pay cheque of a young guard from the country but based in Dublin and is absolutely shocked me. How this person could be expected to rent in this city was beyond me. We are going to end up like London where essential staff like guards and nurses can't afford to live in the capital city without significant allowances. And it's all very well to throw out lines like 'if I wasn't happy with my wages, I would leave' but that ignores the simple fact that many good people want to be guards or nurses or some other public sector worker. I don't have to wear a stab vest to work and I have no desire to whatever the pay. So unless we are quiet happy to fill our guards, nurses, teachers etc with people who are just happy to have a job no matter what the pay and conditions instead of having people who want to do the job and see it as a career, then maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge. However, I have to say that whatever about the guards, the ASTI dispute amazes me. Older teachers sold out their young colleagues at the last agreement. No point telling us you are doing it for them now. Stop your greedy retired members taking paid exam work then for a start.


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## Purple (2 Nov 2016)

I agree that there should be a "Dublin allowance" for Gardai and perhaps for other State employees.


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## michaelm (4 Nov 2016)

Sunny said:


> So unless we are quiet happy to fill our guards, nurses, teachers etc with people who are just happy to have a job no matter what the pay and conditions instead of having people who want to do the job and see it as a career, then maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge.


It's hard to understand why anyone wants to be a Guard or a nurse at this stage, I don't think either job is worth the pay given the conditions.  There should be twice as many Guards and many more beds in hospitals.  It's time for an end to FEMPI and the PS Pension Levy/Tax too and if the PS unions weren't spineless then FEMPI would be gone already.


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## cremeegg (4 Nov 2016)

There are 30 applicants for every vacancy in the Gardai, they don't need a pay rise.

There are many many qualified applicants for every teaching position, they don't need a pay rise.

The HSE cannot recruit enough nurses, they need a pay rise.


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## michaelm (4 Nov 2016)

cremeegg said:


> There are 30 applicants for every vacancy in the Gardai, they don't need a pay rise.


That's a tad simplistic.  Should the fact that there would likely be multiple applications for your job rule out the possibility of a pay rise for you? What we really need is more Gardaí.


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## cremeegg (4 Nov 2016)

michaelm said:


> That's a tad simplistic.


Would you care to explain why you think that.



michaelm said:


> Should the fact that there would likely be multiple applications for your job rule out the possibility of a pay rise for you?



If it were true, yes. The reality is that some time ago I told my boss that I felt under remunerated and he should do something about it if he wanted to retain my services. As I work in the private sector this was his decision made in his economic best interests and with no political considerations entering into it. Unfortunately public sector pay is in part dictated by the governments desire to win public sector votes, rather than what is best for the job.




michaelm said:


> What we really need is more Gardaí.



Why do you think this. I know that there has been international comparisons which point to us being over supplied with police


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## michaelm (4 Nov 2016)

cremeegg said:


> Would you care to explain why you think that.


I thought I did.  Most peoples jobs would attract multiple applications if advertised but that would be a simplistic and cut-throat basis for denying a pay rise or justifying a pay cut.  People should be paid a fair wage which reflects, amongst other things, the conditions under which they work.





cremeegg said:


> I know that there has been international comparisons which point to us being over supplied with police


Really?  Compared to Niger or Kenya maybe.  We have more police per capita than the Scandinavian countries but far fewer than most of the rest of Europe.  Crime is rife in Ireland and many people don't feel safe on the streets at night or even in their beds.  If we're over supplied what do you think we can get that down to?  8000 maybe?


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## cremeegg (4 Nov 2016)

michaelm said:


> I thought I did.  Most peoples jobs would attract multiple applications if advertised but that would be a simplistic and cut-throat basis for denying a pay rise or justifying a pay cut.  People should be paid a fair wage which reflects, amongst other things, the conditions under which they work.



Gardi have a dangerous and difficult job, and the pay should be sufficient to attract people into the Gardai, but it is unreasonable to expect the taxpayer to pay more than that. In fact the last recruitment drive had more than 100 applicants per vacancy, not 30 as I said above.

"A new class of 100 trainees, the first since the embargo came in five years ago, was taken into the Garda training college in Templemore in September. Some 25,000 people applied for the positions." http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/number-of-gardaí-in-dublin-city-down-15-since-2009-1.1996359


I suggested that we may be over supplied with police.



michaelm said:


> Really?  Compared to Niger or Kenya maybe.  We have more police per capita than the Scandinavian countries but far fewer than most of the rest of Europe.  Crime is rife in Ireland and many people don't feel safe on the streets at night or even in their beds.  If we're over supplied what do you think we can get that down to?  8000 maybe?



AT a force of 12,000 Ireland has 252 gardai per 100,000 of population, less than the US at 266, more than the UK at 227. The management of those numbers leaves much to be desired.


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## Sophrosyne (5 Nov 2016)

cremeegg said:


> Gardi have a dangerous and difficult job, and the pay should be sufficient to attract people into the Gardai, but it is unreasonable to expect the taxpayer to pay more than that.



What pay should they have?

[QUOTE="AT a force of 12,000 Ireland has 252 gardai per 100,000 of population, less than the US at 266, more than the UK at 227. [/QUOTE]

In comparisons, inter alia, governmental investment in modern investigative skills & criminal technology together with economies of scale matter just as much as head counting.


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## Purple (5 Nov 2016)

michaelm said:


> It's hard to understand why anyone wants to be a Guard or a nurse at this stage, I don't think either job is worth the pay given the conditions.  There should be twice as many Guards and many more beds in hospitals.  It's time for an end to FEMPI and the PS Pension Levy/Tax too and if the PS unions weren't spineless then FEMPI would be gone already.


Average pay is €66,000 plus a pension which must be worth a minimum of €20,000 a year. That's an average package worth €86,000 (could be slightly higher or lower). They are far and away the best paid group in the public sector. How much do you think they should be paid?
You are looking for increases in numbers and increases in pay back to levels which were unsustainable even when funded by taxes from a property boom. How do you propose we pay for it? Are you in favour of water charges and large increases in property tax? How about a levy on wages in the private sector?


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## Vanessa (5 Nov 2016)

A pension in 30/35 years wont pay the mortgage now. Averaging out the wages is similar. I personally wouldnt do the job for the money they are getting. Any person joining up for 500 a week before tax is a fool. Get transferred to Kerry or Donegal and the first thing you need is a very reliable car. Aftrt a car and lodgings there wouldnt be much left of your post tax income. But then like nursing its a vocation so pay them This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language. And they get overtime Big deal!


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## Delboy (5 Nov 2016)

Whats the average pay for a nurse in Ireland?


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## Sophrosyne (5 Nov 2016)

What is an average nurse?


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## Purple (7 Nov 2016)

Vanessa said:


> A pension in 30/35 years wont pay the mortgage now. Averaging out the wages is similar. I personally wouldnt do the job for the money they are getting. Any person joining up for 500 a week before tax is a fool. Get transferred to Kerry or Donegal and the first thing you need is a very reliable car. Aftrt a car and lodgings there wouldnt be much left of your post tax income. But then like nursing its a vocation so pay them This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language. And they get overtime Big deal!


Are you suggesting that they should reduce their pension entitlement so that they get paid more at the start of their career?


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## michaelm (7 Nov 2016)

Purple said:


> Average pay is €66,000 plus a pension which must be worth a minimum of €20,000 a year. That's an average package worth €86,000 (could be slightly higher or lower). They are far and away the best paid group in the public sector. How much do you think they should be paid?
> You are looking for increases in numbers and increases in pay back to levels which were unsustainable even when funded by taxes from a property boom. How do you propose we pay for it? Are you in favour of water charges and large increases in property tax? How about a levy on wages in the private sector?


I think they should be well paid and that they generally do an excellent job.  In my opinion they should be paid similar money to teachers and nurses as being able to retire in your early 50's is a massive bonus.  The Garda pay structure should be simplified, more Garda employed, overtime eliminated.  

The criminal justice system has been run into the ground, not enough Gardaí, court sittings or prison places.  How you pay for it is a different matter . . perhaps it would be partly self-financing in that reduced crime could help tourism and consumer spending . . a bonfire of the quangos would surely free up a lot of money . . I think people are willing to pay more tax for proper public services.





Purple said:


> How about a levy on wages in the private sector?


Keep your hair on.


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## Ceist Beag (7 Nov 2016)

michaelm said:


> I think people are willing to pay more tax for proper public services


I would agree with that Michael but personally I am not happy to pay more tax to facilitate Gardai retiring at 50 on a pension that continues to match increments to working Gardai. I think the pot of cash available to the public sector is quite enough but the distribution is the issue here. Give less to those who have retired and distribute it towards those working. Obviously that won't happen but that would be my view on it.


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## Purple (7 Nov 2016)

michaelm said:


> I think people are willing to pay more tax for proper public services.


We doubled spending on health in 8 years and saw no real improvement in services.
Between 200 and 2008 the average pay levels in the public sector went up by 59% ([broken link removed]). I don't think there was a corresponding improvement in services in any State run sector.
I'd like to see us get up to the OECD or EU average when it comes to value for money in State run services. That would save us billions, which could be spent on better facilities and more services.


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## michaelm (7 Nov 2016)

Health is intractable.  Had we not increased spending on Health surely there would have been a serious deterioration in services.  A&E is a war zone and a national disgrace but once you're past that the service is not bad.  More beds and more nurses required.

There were significant wage rises across the economy between 2000 and 2008, everyone was running to stand still.  Public service pay levels have been cut back since.  It easy to bandy about percentages eg. inflation was close to 40% across those years.

No doubt we can all agree on a desire for value for money services.


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## Firefly (7 Nov 2016)

Ceist Beag said:


> I would agree with that Michael but personally I am not happy to pay more tax to facilitate Gardai retiring at 50 on a pension that continues to match increments to working Gardai.



I agree with this. We constantly hear of organisations across the public sector who lack resources (even the Gardai themselves). If the Gardai who reach 50 cannot be on the beat, surely they could work to 65 like everyone else and do admin or work elsewhere in the public sector.


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## Purple (7 Nov 2016)

Firefly said:


> I agree with this. We constantly hear of organisations across the public sector who lack resources (even the Gardai themselves). If the Gardai who reach 50 cannot be on the beat, surely they could work to 65 like everyone else and do admin or work elsewhere in the public sector.


On their pay levels that would cost us more.
They should be well paid and they can't work until they are 65 or 68 but they have a good package at the moment so they should keep their head down.


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## dereko1969 (7 Nov 2016)

michaelm said:


> I thought I did.  Most peoples jobs would attract multiple applications if advertised but that would be a simplistic and cut-throat basis for denying a pay rise or justifying a pay cut.  People should be paid a fair wage which reflects, amongst other things, the conditions under which they work.Really?  Compared to Niger or Kenya maybe.  We have more police per capita than the Scandinavian countries but far fewer than most of the rest of Europe.  *Crime is rife in Ireland and many people don't feel safe on the streets at night or even in their beds*.  If we're over supplied what do you think we can get that down to?  8000 maybe?



On what basis are you stating that crime is rife? The perception that it is is certainly out there, fuelled by media reports that have little basis in fact and have more to do with making us afraid.


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## Purple (7 Nov 2016)

michaelm said:


> Health is intractable.  Had we not increased spending on Health surely there would have been a serious deterioration in services.  A&E is a war zone and a national disgrace but once you're past that the service is not bad.  More beds and more nurses required.


  Once you are in it's still quite bad. We spend a very high proportion of our very large budget in pay. We can either have very good facilities and occupational training or we can spend that money on pay rises. We spent it on pay during the boom. Maybe we should learn a lesson and start running our Public Health Service in the interest of the Public. 



michaelm said:


> There were significant wage rises across the economy between 2000 and 2008, everyone was running to stand still.  Public service pay levels have been cut back since.  It easy to bandy about percentages eg. inflation was close to 40% across those years.


It was 35.9% ([broken link removed])


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## Purple (7 Nov 2016)

dereko1969 said:


> On what basis are you stating that crime is rife? The perception that it is is certainly out there, fuelled by media reports that have little basis in fact and have more to do with making us afraid.


Murder is down, sex crimes are up. Everything else is about the same. ([broken link removed])


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## Purple (7 Nov 2016)

michaelm said:


> In my opinion they should be paid similar money to teachers and nurses as being able to retire in your early 50's is a massive bonus. The Garda pay structure should be simplified, more Garda employed, overtime eliminated.


 That would mean massive pay cuts for them. I don't think that would be a runner.


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## Purple (7 Nov 2016)

Purple said:


> It was 35.9% ([broken link removed])


That means that Primary Teachers  and Prison Officers say a reduction in their purchasing power over that period by 6.49% and 8.95% respectively. Gardai saw in increase of 9.08% 910.93% excluding overtime) and Secondary Teachers by 22.43%. Third Level pay increased by a massive 34.78% above the rate of inflation. No wonder fees went up! (Call them Registration Charges if you like but a fart by any other name...).


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## michaelm (7 Nov 2016)

dereko1969 said:


> On what basis are you stating that crime is rife? The perception that it is is certainly out there, fuelled by media reports that have little basis in fact and have more to do with making us afraid.





Purple said:


> Murder is down, sex crimes are up. Everything else is about the same. ([broken link removed])


Yes, the media hype everything.  Admittedly not scientific, however, burglary is out of hand, I know so many people who have been broken into.  I've owned 5 cars over 23 years and every one has suffered criminal damage.  That reported/recorded crime is 'about the same' isn't much consolation to those affected by it.  The figures are far too high.





Purple said:


> It [inflation] was 35.9% ([broken link removed])


Whatever, from Jan 2000 to Dec 2008 it was 38.2%.  If you're going to bandy about percentages for average wage increases you should acknowledge that inflation was tipping along also.


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## Purple (7 Nov 2016)

michaelm said:


> Whatever, from Jan 2000 to Dec 2008 it was 38.2%.  If you're going to bandy about percentages for average wage increases you should acknowledge that inflation was tipping along also.


Yea, I did.


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## Vanessa (8 Nov 2016)

Purple said:


> Are you suggesting that they should reduce their pension entitlement so that they get paid more at the start of their career?


Im sure pension conditions could be changed but unlikely for those already on pension. Not being ageist but what good is a 60 year old guard on the streage.There cant be office jobs for everyone at that age.


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## Vanessa (8 Nov 2016)

The position with nurses is that if we dont pay them properly they have no problem getting better terms in the UK etc. I know nurses who go to England and do 14 days in a row, stay in hospital accommodation andthen are free to return to Ireland or do agency work to earn additional income


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## Purple (9 Nov 2016)

Vanessa said:


> The position with nurses is that if we dont pay them properly they have no problem getting better terms in the UK etc. I know nurses who go to England and do 14 days in a row, stay in hospital accommodation and then are free to return to Ireland or do agency work to earn additional income


Fair play to them for working so hard.
I agree that we have to pay the market rate. With the exchange rate what it is the UK is less attractive though.


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## moneybox (2 Dec 2016)

Vanessa said:


> The position with nurses is that if we dont pay them properly they have no problem getting better terms in the UK etc. I know nurses who go to England and do 14 days in a row, stay in hospital accommodation andthen are free to return to Ireland or do agency work to earn additional income



I have no idea where you getting this from, I had a niece nursing  in London, hospital accommodation cost her a staggering £600 a month for a miserable tiny room with damp and insects crawling along the walls. They don't have better terms, staff shortages are chronic and agency work rates has recently been severely cut back. There was no way she could have worked 14 days in a row and then return to Ireland to do agency work.   She left and is now working in America.

In addition, nurses earn far less in UK than in Ireland, they start off at around £23,000 and taking recent exchange rate drop  into account, it is likely they will be far less incentive for  Irish nurses to go over there.


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## Vanessa (7 Dec 2016)

If your niece decides to rent that standard of accommodation then so be it. I know many young Irish nurses  in the London area who are in decent accommodation, sharing houses etc.
None of them have been attracted by the HSEs efforts to recruit them. You will notice I said "or".
I never posted that they went back to Ireland to do agency work. I dont believe that you are familiar with the wage structure, working hours and training opportunities being offered in the UK to be in a position to give a proper comparison between the UK and Ireland


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## moneybox (8 Dec 2016)

Vanessa said:


> If your niece decides to rent that standard of accommodation then so be it. I know many young Irish nurses  in the London area who are in decent accommodation, sharing houses etc.
> None of them have been attracted by the HSEs efforts to recruit them. You will notice I said "or".
> I never posted that they went back to Ireland to do agency work. I dont believe that you are familiar with the wage structure, working hours and training opportunities being offered in the UK to be in a position to give a proper comparison between the UK and Ireland



She was in what they call 'key workers' accommodation not very nice at all. 

As for the wage structure here is the evidence
https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2016-17


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## Purple (9 Dec 2016)

moneybox said:


> She was in what they call 'key workers' accommodation not very nice at all.
> 
> As for the wage structure here is the evidence
> https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2016-17


Now now Moneybox, don't be bringing facts into it. Nurses are Front Line Staff, sorry, "wurkers", and so should be paid more despite the fact that its a vocation and they are utterly selfless, every one of them is extremely hard working, every one of them is brilliant at their job (yes, they are all above average ). 
Maybe they should be paid more but maybe the whole structure needs to change so that their job is less stressful and they are more productive.


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## Firefly (9 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> Nurses are Front Line Staff



It's funny how nurses, teachers and gardai are always the ones trotted out by the unions when it comes to wage demands. I don't have the numbers, but being generous, I would put them as 20% of the public sector. You never hear about the other 80%..


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## Delboy (12 Dec 2016)

100k average pay when the pension is included 
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...se-pension-benefits-says-pay-report-1.2902538


> Any garda who engages in strike action should lose their right to build up their pension entitlements for five years, a major new report on pay and industrial relations in An [broken link removed] has recommended....
> ...The report says that the average pay for gardaí across the force last year was €63,450.
> However it says if the value of the cost of the provision of pensions was taken into account, total remuneration for gardaí would be in excess of €100,000.


Not bad money at all.
And of course the report won't be implemented...another one to gather dust


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## Purple (12 Dec 2016)

Delboy said:


> 100k average pay when the pension is included
> http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/striking-gardaí-should-lose-pension-benefits-says-pay-report-1.2902538
> 
> Not bad money at all.
> And of course the report won't be implemented...another one to gather dust


I'm glad to see someone was reading my posts!


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## Gerry Canning (12 Dec 2016)

Given the way (NON STATE type) pensions are being hammered and the obvious real today value of a (state) pension , all (public) staff might be advised to shut up for a while !


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## Duke of Marmalade (12 Dec 2016)

Yes _Purple_ Horgan seems to have answered your OP question.  €37k average annual accrual of pension. 

Retiring at 55 and with long term interest rates at little over 1% I think we can see where this back of a postage stamp figure might come from. Yes that could be the actuarial present value of the cost to the State.  But this is a grossly simplistic way to see it from the point of view of the employee. 

I presume that the retirement age of 55 comes from the recognition that given the particular nature of garda work they lose effectiveness much earlier than in other careers.   I think we can also assume that at age 55 the possibilities for alternative work are limited.  So in choosing a career as a garda one is accepting that you will only be economically active until age 55.  It is therefore entirely appropriate that exceptional pension arrangements be in place to make the career attractive.

Put another way, in contemplating her career, a prospective garda recruit will of course value the early pension but they will also see it as a necessary compensation for having a substantially reduced period of economic usefulness.  Their representatives would be right to completely dismiss this headline figure as being misleading.  They will have to start arguing that the loss of economic utility from age 55 needs to be deducted in any benchmarking. It's a tough ask.


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## Delboy (12 Dec 2016)

From my understanding, a lot of the Security companies actively seek retired Gardai as advisers/managers. The big supermarkets too.
And of course they can serve until 60 if they so wish.

They they also have their property letting business to fall back on and give 100% of their time


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## Dan Murray (13 Dec 2016)

It is difficult to place a value on these benefits. I have, however, made some estimates of their value based on the cost of those benefits in 2015.

In 2015, the cost of the Superannuation scheme was €311m (in terms of pensions paid out) - of which €36m was contributed by the 12,800 active members of the scheme. This represents less than 12% of the cost. If all members had to pay the full cost they would have had to contribute an additional €275m or €21.5k each. To fund this in after-tax income they would have to have been paid an additional €40k approximately. This is equivalent to an additional 80% of pay approximately. This would bring total remuneration of the average Garda to the equivalent of in excess of €100k before tax. (Please note that there is no actual "fund" here.)


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## Firefly (13 Dec 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> I presume that the retirement age of 55 comes from the recognition that given the particular nature of garda work they lose effectiveness much earlier than in other careers.



We constantly hear about home some areas of the PS are under-resourced, surely a Garda aged 55 could be reallocated to admin departments though and help out?


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## Purple (13 Dec 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Yes _Purple_ Horgan seems to have answered your OP question.  €37k average annual accrual of pension.


 Dan gives the full breakdown.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> Retiring at 55 and with long term interest rates at little over 1% I think we can see where this back of a postage stamp figure might come from. Yes that could be the actuarial present value of the cost to the State.  But this is a grossly simplistic way to see it from the point of view of the employee.


 It's factually accurate. I don't see how it's simplistic though.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> I presume that the retirement age of 55 comes from the recognition that given the particular nature of garda work they lose effectiveness much earlier than in other careers.   I think we can also assume that at age 55 the possibilities for alternative work are limited.  So in choosing a career as a garda one is accepting that you will only be economically active until age 55.  It is therefore entirely appropriate that exceptional pension arrangements be in place to make the career attractive.


 There's no Garda in Ireland who won't be able to get a job when he or she retires. I know quite a few of them.  



Duke of Marmalade said:


> Put another way, in contemplating her career, a prospective garda recruit will of course value the early pension but they will also see it as a necessary compensation for having a substantially reduced period of economic usefulness.  Their representatives would be right to completely dismiss this headline figure as being misleading.  They will have to start arguing that the loss of economic utility from age 55 needs to be deducted in any benchmarking. It's a tough ask.


 They can get a job if they want or  they can work on until they are 60 or they can take their tax free lump sum, which averages over €100,000, and clear the remainder of their mortgage and live in "Frugal Comfort" on their €33'000 a year average pension.
If I had €500 a week now after paying my mortgage/rent I'd be delighted.


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## Duke of Marmalade (13 Dec 2016)

_Firefly_ we should avoid the error of thinking that €33K pension is a cost but continuing to pay €60K to push pens would not be a cost.

_Dan_ I think you are wrong to "gross up".  Those pensions are subject to tax, that's why folk get tax relief on pension contributions.  There is a big difference between €21K and €40K though ironically the €40K seems closer to the correct actuarial figure.

_Purple_ it is factually correct that most people die in bed but it would be too simplistic to regard being in bed as dangerous. Similarly the actuarial cost of Garda pensions is indeed fact but it is overly simplistic to use this figure unadjusted in benchmarking against other careers.  I thought I had explained that - but if you think you have me on a "gotcha" your welcome.


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## Dan Murray (13 Dec 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Dan_ I think you are wrong to "gross up".  Those pensions are subject to tax, that's why folk get tax relief on pension contributions.  There is a big difference between €21K and €40K though ironically the €40K seems closer to the correct actuarial figure.



My dear Duke,

I note that you are having some difficulty with the tax treatment of pension contributions contained in my post last night or, to be really technical, earlier today! So, please allow me to elaborate a little further....

Another way of estimating the value is to ask what contribution would be required of a person aged 20 who wishes to fund a pension of €25k payable at age 50. According to the Pensions Authority Calculator that person would be required to pay in the order of €30k p.a., or 50% of earnings each year to achieve this goal.


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## Purple (13 Dec 2016)

Dan Murray said:


> My dear Duke,
> 
> I note that you are having some difficulty with the tax treatment of pension contributions contained in my post last night or, to be really technical, earlier today! So, please allow me to elaborate a little further....
> 
> Another way of estimating the value is to ask what contribution would be required of a person aged 20 who wishes to fund a pension of €25k payable at age 50. According to the Pensions Authority Calculator that person would be required to pay in the order of €30k p.a., or 50% of earnings each year to achieve this goal.


Their average pension is €33,000 a year.


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## Duke of Marmalade (13 Dec 2016)

_Dan_ you grossed up the pensions in payment.  Since these are already gross that was a significant error.  However, because of other compensating errors in your method you got more or less the same answer as John Horgan.  It is like the Junior Cert student who when asked the area of a 4 by 4 square adds up the lengths and gets 16.  If she is lucky she will get an examiner like _Purple_ who would give her full marks.


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## Dan Murray (13 Dec 2016)

I agree. I agree fully. Honest to Allah!! And I’m blaming the change in medication, at least, in part!!

This report is an absolute shambles. It’s available on the link below.

[broken link removed]

I like to read such reports, first hand, from time to time. I honestly cannot remember ever reading a more poorly structured, presented and written official report. I accept that these points relate primarily to style but they do count for something.

Moving on to substance, the value of pensions is very significant element in the report and the issue that has attracted greatest media reaction. I only managed to read up to page 48 which deals with the valuation basis of current pension benefits. I simply could not read beyond this.

Pretty much all of post 56 in this thread (apart from the parentheses) and the second paragraph of post 60 are….....wait for it…….._mot par mot_ citations from Horgan's report!! I truly believe this merits a _GOTCHA PLUS_.... 

These valuation estimates are shoddy, almost beyond belief. Looking at each point individually, the Duke has already rightly ridiculed the tax treatment and had the sense to realise that there must be


Duke of Marmalade said:


> _..._other compensating errors in your method you got more or less the same answer as John Horgan......



And indeed there are actually many errors but let me just deal with the biggest whopper. Horgan applies the following basis to calculate the value of the pension benefit.

Current payments to pensioners                   €311m


Current contributions of active members       €  36m


Cash-flow difference between (1) and (2)      €275m


Number of serving gardaí                             12,816


Shortfall per garda: (3) dividided by (4)        €21,500

This logic is just so stupid. Just to expand, it would follow that if the numbers of gardaí were to double, the cost of their pension benefits would halve and vice versa!!

The second point is also plain stupid. Purple has already pointed out that the average pension is €33,000. Accordingly, the references to €25k and age 50 (especially without explaining why) are simply ludicrous.

Apart from the ineptitude of the report writer, I am struck by the matching ineptitude of the GRA in not immediately being able to undermine Horgan’s credibility (and by extension his argument) by highlighting any the above effectively. If they had, my little ruse in this thread would obviously not have worked. Remember the GRA had sight of the report for 2 weeks before its publication - so they had plenty of time to talk to someone who can count beyond ten without taking his shoes and socks off.

Incidentally, the related GRA press release is priceless. Apart from anything else, it's an absolute goldmine for my "writing errors" thread. It's pretty incredible that an organisation representing so many people, earning so much in total annual compensation (say, c. €100k), could be so shoddy. In fairness to Horgan, he presumably negotiated a set fee for the job and was not going to waste any of it by sharing some of his fee with folk who could count well or type nicely.


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## Duke of Marmalade (13 Dec 2016)

_Dan_ I am trying to distil out what may be satirical swipes at a venerable Duke but, taken at face value, I owe you sincere apologies

Not apologies for the content of my contributions which I think you may actually agree with, but apologies for not realising you were quoting from the report.  That section on pensions is really quite awful, I don't know how you managed to survive 48 pages

_Actuarial note:

If a pension fund (notional or otherwise) has reached demographic and financial stability then the following identity would hold:

Contributions + Interest (possibly notional) = Benefits

Horgan's back of a postage stamp calc could only possibly be near right by pure fluke, as it has no theoretical justification whatsoever._


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## Purple (13 Dec 2016)

In my earlier posts I took the average pension of €33'000 and used the pension calculator from the Pensions Authority website and went with a salary of €66,000 and a 30 year working life. They said _"Based on the assumptions used by this calculator, you are not expected to meet your Target Pension of €33,000 p.a. in retirement.You need to increase your contributions to 40% of Salary a year in order to meet your Target Pension. Alternatively, you could consider reducing your Target Pension in retirement or retiring at a later age."_

Given that the average Garda salary on the CSO website was €66,000, and that they didn't get a state pension (and don't pay for one) I took it that €66,000 + 40% = €92,400 and surmised that the cost of funding the element the state would normally provide would bring it over the €100,000 mark. I'm no expert though so I'm open to correction. I also don't know how much should be added for the €107,000 average lump sum payment they get when they retire.

If anything €100,000 looks like a low figure.


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## Firefly (13 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> II also don't know how much should be added for the €107,000 average lump sum payment they get when they retire.



I've asked this before. For any public sector worker out there....do the pension contributions they make even cover their tax-free lump sum amount?


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## Duke of Marmalade (13 Dec 2016)

Ok guys, I've been doing some sums on the Single Public Service Pension Scheme which applies to *new* Garda recruits.  The Horgan report gets this all wrong.  Pension accrues at .58% on the first 45K and 1.43% on the excess over that figure (Horgan quotes 1.25% which applies to other public servants).  Lump sum accrues at 4.29% (Horgan 3.5%).  So you see Garda get extra accrual to compensate for anticipated retirement earlier than other PS.  The accruals are CPI adjusted so this is a career average scheme rather than a final salary scheme.

So I took a plausible career path from a new 20 year old recruit at €30K finishing as a sergeant at top of scale earning €62K.

Assuming retirement at 55 (earliest allowed) the pension would be €14K p.a. and the lump sum would be €85K.  Shows how much the PS Unions shafted new recruits.

Using that actuarial postage stamp I rate 14k p.a. pension at age 55 to be worth about 500K so add in the lump sum to get around 600K.  Divide by 35 to get it worth about 17K per annum and finally knock off average contributions of 2K to get equivalent extra pay of 15K.


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## elacsaplau (13 Dec 2016)

Dan Murray said:


> .....so they had plenty of time to talk to someone who can count beyond ten without taking his shoes and socks off.
> and
> In fairness to Horgan, he presumably negotiated a set fee for the job and was not going to waste any of it by sharing some of his fee with folk who could count well or type nicely.



Dan - you the man!

Excellent exposé of a very poor report. It gave me a right good and much needed laugh. My favourite bits are above - thanks!  Also, I must say I enjoyed your little gambit!

Horgan genuinely looks like a cheapskate and the GRA's management of this, laughable. It seems to me that the media hasn't covered itself in glory on this one either.


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## Purple (14 Dec 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Ok guys, I've been doing some sums on the Single Public Service Pension Scheme which applies to *new* Garda recruits.  The Horgan report gets this all wrong.  Pension accrues at .58% on the first 45K and 1.43% on the excess over that figure (Horgan quotes 1.25% which applies to other public servants).  Lump sum accrues at 4.29% (Horgan 3.5%).  So you see Garda get extra accrual to compensate for anticipated retirement earlier than other PS.  The accruals are CPI adjusted so this is a career average scheme rather than a final salary scheme.
> 
> So I took a plausible career path from a new 20 year old recruit at €30K finishing as a sergeant at top of scale earning €62K.
> 
> ...


You can't look at their scale; look at what they actually earn. The average pay is €66,000. The average pension is €33,000. The average lump sum is €107,000.  
Your figures would be correct if they were paid less.


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## Firefly (14 Dec 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> Using that actuarial postage stamp I rate 14k p.a. pension at age 55 to be worth about 500K so add in the lump sum to get around 600K.  Divide by 35 to get it worth about 17K per annum and finally knock off average contributions of 2K to get equivalent extra pay of 15K.



2k per year x 35 years is 70k and that's 10k less than the tax free lump sum. Do public sector workers contribute anything towards their pension?


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## Dan Murray (14 Dec 2016)

elacsaplau said:


> Also, I must say I enjoyed your little gambit!



Ah yes - I had great hopes for my beloved Urusov which, as ever, only got half accepted - ending up as some sort of cross between a Scotch and a Danish. No more of such flavourings in the future for me. Henceforth, it's magnolia Ruy Lopez all the way....


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## jjm (14 Dec 2016)

Duke posted I've been doing some sums on the Single Public Service Pension Scheme which applies to new Garda 
I suspect the Shafted new members who leave before the reach retirement age . I may be corrected   new members retirement pension includes retirees getting half of the new Career Average Scheme on there official retirement age.Hope Duke can explain it to you.When they brought in PRSIi A1 for public service   Unions got a 5% pay increase for new entrances to cover PRSI. In other words the were on 5% more than the person who started the day before them on the old D stamp.


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## Duke of Marmalade (14 Dec 2016)

_Firefly_ yes it can be viewed that no contributions go towards pension.  That is true of all public servants.  It is also broadly true of most private sector DB schemes, indeed for some of these members make no contribution whatsoever.

_Purple_ my sums show that for a typical career path the new SPSPS will deliver a pension of 23% and a lump sum of 137% of final salary.  Those ratios hold no matter how much you uplift the scales to get actual earnings.

Current retirees are getting 50% and 150% respectively.  I was demonstrating the extent to which new recruits have been shafted.  I can see a split in the PS unions developing whereby new recruits who have been stuffed on scales as well as pensions will breakaway from their predecessors who selfishly pulled up the ladder.  How could any new recruit stomach any improvement to the pay and conditions of their predecessors before this yawning inequity is closed?

_Dan_ I must make a note to play the Berlin defence when engaging with you in future


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## Purple (14 Dec 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Purple_ my sums show that for a typical career path the new SPSPS will deliver a pension of 23% and a lump sum of 137% of final salary. Those ratios hold no matter how much you uplift the scales to get actual earnings.


 Ok, so your calculations were for new recruits only. I get it now.



Duke of Marmalade said:


> Current retirees are getting 50% and 150% respectively. I* was demonstrating the extent to which new recruits have been shafted.* I can see a split in the PS unions developing whereby new recruits who have been stuffed on scales as well as pensions will breakaway from their predecessors who selfishly pulled up the ladder. How could any new recruit stomach any improvement to the pay and conditions of their predecessors before this yawning inequity is closed?


 Yes I agree. A modest decrease in the tapay and pensions of the old guard gardai would allow the leveling up of the newer members but that would be fair and reasonable and could be sustainable economically so it won't happen.


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## cremeegg (14 Dec 2016)

jjm2016 said:


> I suspect the Shafted new members who leave before the reach retirement age .



What exactly is it you suspect them of ? Murder, Arson, Careless driving ?

Come on, you have posted some contributions worth reading, but you should make the effort to read over your posts. This is not your first that is largely unintelligible.


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## Dan Murray (14 Dec 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Dan_ I must make a note to play the Berlin defence when engaging with you in future



Interesting but ultimately a flawed choice - if dewall crumbled, what hope is there for defence?


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## jjm (14 Dec 2016)

cremeegg
Carefull Driving while not caring for other Members. Go figure it out.


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## Firefly (14 Dec 2016)

Duke of Marmalade said:


> _Firefly_ yes it can be viewed that no contributions go towards pension.  That is true of all public servants.  It is also broadly true of most private sector DB schemes, indeed for some of these members make no contribution whatsoever.



That's probably why many schemes in the private sector have shut / converted to DC schemes. In fact, I don't know of any employers in the private sector mad enough to offer DB schemes to new employees in this day and age. Anyone in the PS more than 15 years out from retirement should be demanding from their unions that their scheme be converted to DC - the DB schemes are clearly unaffordable but the head is firmly in the sand!


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## Gerry Canning (15 Dec 2016)

I do remember my company in 1990 taking a holiday from contributing to the then DB (defined benefit) scheme because returns were so good.
Is it not in legislation that DB schemes must pay at least 70% to all members?
Given that we are in investment (doldrums) maybe anyone in DB might be better to hang in and not move to DC (defined contribution) model.

Just wondering ?


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## Purple (15 Dec 2016)

I do think the liabilities are being over stated due to the historically low interest rates/returns on investments available at the moment.


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## blueband (15 Dec 2016)

Having two cousings in the gaurds myself, id have to say your figures are near enough spot on purple..


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## MrEarl (16 Dec 2016)

Purple said:


> I do think the liabilities are being over stated due to the historically low interest rates/returns on investments available at the moment.



The pension funds rely on growth from deposits and the bond markets (alongisde property, equities etc.) to help grow the overall pot needed to cover the actual pension liabilities, so if earnings are not coming from those sources then there's a problem in terms of the growth of the pension funds. Those deposit and bond rates have been low for quite a while now, with many indicating they will continue to be low for another few years yet (particularly if we are talking about the eurozone).

Also, lets not forget that the likely obligations under the pensions are increasing - simply because the average age expectancy is getting longer, so there's more money needed to pay for those people living longer lives


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## Vanessa (4 Jan 2017)

MrEarl said:


> The pension funds rely on growth from deposits and the bond markets (alongisde property, equities etc.) to help grow the overall pot needed to cover the actual pension liabilities, so if earnings are not coming from those sources then there's a problem in terms of the growth of the pension funds. Those deposit and bond rates have been low for quite a while now, with many indicating they will continue to be low for another few years yet (particularly if we are talking about the eurozone).
> 
> Also, lets not forget that the likely obligations under the pensions are increasing - simply because the average age expectancy is getting longer, so there's more money needed to pay for those people living longer lives


We will have to do something about this living longer habit. Maybe introduce a cut off point. Dole spongers and public service pensioners could have a special limit imposed


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## Firefly (4 Jan 2017)

Vanessa said:


> We will have to do something about this living longer habit. Maybe introduce a cut off point. Dole spongers and public service pensioners could have a special limit imposed



I can see a day where legislation will be brought in that will require x% of staff to be aged over 65, especially for larger companies....


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## Delboy (23 Mar 2017)

1m breath tests actually carried out....2m recorded for stats purposes.
Also, 14,700 mtoring convictions about to get overturned as they were processed incorrectly.
In any functioning democracy, the head of the Police force and a few #2's would resign and possibly also the Minister. Not in Ireland. I smell another Commission of Inquiry and mega bucks for a few barristers/solicitors.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...-breath-tests-carried-out-1-million-1.3021757


> An Garda Síochána is carrying out just half the number of drink driving breath tests that it claims to, the force has said.
> Almost two million tests were recorded by gardaí between 2012 and 2016 but it has now said less than a million were actually carried out....
> ...The Garda has also apologised after 14,700 motorists who were summoned to court and convicted without being given the opportunity to pay a fine first under the fixed charged notice system.
> The Garda must now go to the courts and appeal all of the convictions in a process that will likely take years and costs tens of millions of euro.
> Mr Finn said because of the possible costs and legal claims that could be taken against the State by those affected by the issue, the State Claims Agency had been informed.


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## Firefly (24 Mar 2017)

Delboy said:


> 1m breath tests actually carried out....2m recorded for stats purposes.
> Also, 14,700 mtoring convictions about to get overturned as they were processed incorrectly.
> In any functioning democracy, the head of the Police force and a few #2's would resign and possibly also the Minister. Not in Ireland. I smell another Commission of Inquiry and mega bucks for a few barristers/solicitors.
> 
> http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...-breath-tests-carried-out-1-million-1.3021757



I would even question the 1m tests to be honest. There are about 3m adults in the country. That means that 1 in every 3 on average have been tested. I haven't seen a checkpoint in years nevermind being tested. Out of interest, has anyone here been tested in the last 2-3 years?


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## Delboy (24 Mar 2017)

Never breathalised in my life


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## Leper (26 Mar 2017)

I live in Cork and I have been breathalysed on several occasions in the past few years (perhaps it's my driving bad habits?).  Cork city centre is not free of Garda checkpoints either even at 7.30am.

I lived in the south of Spain and being a non-Spaniard I got used to being breathalysed at least once a month and on one particular evening I was breathalysed three times at the same roundabout by the same member of la guardia local (known locally as the Keystone Cops). 

Be careful what you wish for.


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## geri (27 Mar 2017)

I've been driving for 20 years and never been breathalised.  I've also never heard any of my family or friends talking about being breathalised either.


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## Vanessa (27 Mar 2017)

In the last three years I have been breathalysed twice and regularly meet Garda checkpoints around Dublin city late at night. However I recall travelling to Cork then to Roscommon and back to Dublin over three days and nights and no sign of a Garda never mind a checkpoint. I used take a chance with two or three points but once the mandatory checkpoints came in I wouldnt chance it with a wine gum.
Even though you might fail the breath test on the roadway and pass at the station your name is on the system. I have to say that I enjoy my nights out more now I dont bring the car


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