# Who owns space between boundary wall and edge of road?



## wbbs (12 Mar 2013)

Question for any legal people, am asking for a friend that cannot really afford to get legal advice at the moment.

I have read some posts here and it seems to be different depending on whether rural or urban.

Anyway situation is small town, house on the side of the public roadway, footpath on opposite side of road.  There is a space outside front boundary wall and the start of the tarred road surface maybe 3/4'.  There is a lump of tar 6/8" or so in diameter in a little from edge of road.  A person who was walking past the house on the way to a business premises next door has fallen over this lump of tar and is making a claim against the local council who have passed the claim on to the house owner stating that it is nothing to do with the council.  For the record the driveway of the house is not tarmac and has never been.   Any suggestions as to what the best way to deal with this, house owner has already replied to council stating it is not their property and not their tar either but council are digging their heels in.

Just to add there is more than likely no house insurance in place.


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## ajapale (12 Mar 2013)

If this person is about to sue you then you should get proper professional legal advice from a solicitor.

In general in rural Ireland the landowner owns to the centre of the road but you should check this with land registry as it is not all ways the case.

It would appear to me that where there is a footpath, you (or the council) have no duty of care toward an individual who choses not to walk on the footpath provided and instead to walk in the grass verge.


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## wbbs (12 Mar 2013)

Thanks, I figured they may have to check their deeds to find out where the boundary lies.  Unfortunately professional legal advice costs money and this person has no means of paying that, if they had spare they would have house insurance!


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## ajapale (12 Mar 2013)

It would seem to me that there is nothing to be gained by suing someone of little or no means.


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## Vanilla (12 Mar 2013)

Except that they are a house owner.

Wbbs- I know you are trying to help a friend but without seeing their title, no-one can tell you if they own this bit of the road or not. It can be either.

Even if they own this patch, where did the tar come from? Is it from council works. If the road is in charge it may still be council's responsibility even if house owner owns it.

Your friend needs to engage a solicitor to talk to them, investigate the title and, quite possibly, write a letter seeking indemnity from the council pointing out that otherwise their legal costs will be pursued. A strongly worded letter now might do the trick. Shouldn't cost that much, but I'd imagine well worth while.


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## wbbs (12 Mar 2013)

Vanilla, thanks.  Negative Equity I would imagine so no money to be got that way either.  I know I can't get a definitive answer here, was just looking for some legal opinions to be prepared.

They have already written to the council themselves but that has had no effect.  The council say they have no record of leaving the tar there (obviously, their workmen or contractor hardly come back and tell them hey we dropped a blob of tar by the roadside!).  

They are looking into making an appointment with a solicitor as unfortunately it looks like they are going to have to incur costs from something not of their making.    Turns out there is house insurance in place and the company has been notified and their take on it is they only ensure to boundary wall anyway!   Interesting!


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## Guns N Roses (12 Mar 2013)

wbbs said:


> A person who was walking past the house on the way to a business premises next door has fallen over this lump of tar and is making a claim against the local council who have passed the claim on to the house owner stating that it is nothing to do with the council.


 
What do you mean by "passed on"? 

Have the Council actually writen to your friend directly stating that your friend is liable?

Has your friend received any correspondence directly from the "injured party"?

Has the road been resurfaced recently?

Sounds like the injured party is trying it on with the Council. They may not be so willing to do so with an ordinary member of the public.


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## Dermot (12 Mar 2013)

Maybe I am being  foolish with this suggestion. Could someone check with neighbours/ people living in the area to see if the council or indeed a neighbour/builder do any work involving tar recently. Did your friend notice this before the incident. I am just trying to put a time frame on how long you might have to look back in order to check when work involving tar took place. Is the tar still there and if not who removed it. I have a suspicion that the council are responsible as it is outside the boundary wall. I am not a legal eagle.


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## wbbs (12 Mar 2013)

To answer the questions, council have written to house owner telling them of incident and saying they are liable, complaint was made to the council.

No correspondence has been received from the 'injured party'

Road has not been resurfaced lately that they know of or remember, could have been there for years.

Work has been done to the next door premises in past couple of years, a business has started there and it has a tarmac driveway.

My friends never really noticed this, the ground is rough enough there anyway, it is just gravelly verge of road.  Tar lump is still there, plenty of photos taken though in case it disappears!

Am I watching too many cop shows?  Could the lump of tar be proven to be of the same consistency as the road tar?  Would this matter anyway?  There is no doubt the tar did not come from my friends property or from any work done there, realistically where is a lump of tar by the side of a main road likely to come from but road surfacing!


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## Dermot (12 Mar 2013)

Guns N Roses could be spot on. I would wait for the "injured party's " next move before I would start spending money I do not have.


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## Guns N Roses (12 Mar 2013)

wbbs said:


> To answer the questions, council have written to house owner telling them of incident and saying they are liable, complaint was made to the council.


 
This part is confusing me. Why is the Council is writing to your friend. If a complaint has been made, surely they would response back to the claimant stating that it's not their responsibility instead of pointing the finger at your friend. Did the Council state in their letter what they wanted your friend to do about it?



wbbs said:


> No correspondence has been received from the 'injured party'


 
Then I wouldn't worry about it. Not until such time as your friend receives a letter from the "injured party" or their solicitor.


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## Vanilla (12 Mar 2013)

All very well for posters here to say ignore it but it sounds to me like it could have been an O'Byrne letter, council threatening to join owner to the claim. 

But now there appears to be household insurance- very different ballgame. Check the policy!


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## WizardDr (12 Mar 2013)

@wbbs I would be inclined to note what @vanilla is saying.

@vanilla - is there any creative approach in suggesting that the Council have effectively become the owner under adverse possession? The owner (if he was the owner) laid down the boundry and effectively abandoned the rest to the council albeit unwittingly.

Any merit?


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## wbbs (12 Mar 2013)

There is a fierce unfairness to this one way or the other, my friends have to finance going to a solicitor for something they have nothing to do with, if for some unknown reason and we all know insurance companies are more likely to settle than pay legal fees money is paid out they will then pay dearly through their insurance costs, in fact through not being able to afford it at all most likely.  (Bearing in mind the insurance company says they only insure to boundary wall so they are saying they don't cover it anyway).

The house is maybe 20+ yrs old and was bought about 8 yrs ago, it has never even occured to them that anything outside their wall was anything to do with them.

Whats an O'Byrne letter?


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## Ravima (12 Mar 2013)

If they pass the matter to house insurers, then they will handle it. 

Most policies cover property owners legal liability - therefore if householder owns the property and is liable, then insurers deal with claim. If he does not own it, then it is hard to see a liability as owner on him.


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## Vanilla (12 Mar 2013)

Wbbs- tell your friend to notify the insurance company IN WRITING, send copy of his/her insurance details to both the council and the person suing the council and then wait to see what happens. 

In an ideal world I'd tell your friend to get a solicitor to do it for them, but if they won't then they should do that much at least. The council's solicitors will hopefully engage with the insurance company and pursue any liability there.


But don't ignore legal correspondence and if it escalates to a court document, he/she needs to seek advice immediately.


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## wbbs (12 Mar 2013)

Thank you Vanilla for the advice, they don't know who the person involved is.  But what happens if for example the land was belong to them but clearly the lump of tar was not theirs, can they then pursue the council themselves for any cost incurred due to the council's negligence in leaving this lump?  Not fair that their insurance, if any, should increase due to no fault of theirs.

To be honest I cannot be 100% sure whether or not there is insurance in place.


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## Dermot (12 Mar 2013)

So the guy that got "injured" as well as everyone else who uses this space are trespassing


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## Vanilla (13 Mar 2013)

wbbs said:


> Thank you Vanilla for the advice, they don't know who the person involved is. But what happens if for example the land was belong to them but clearly the lump of tar was not theirs, can they then pursue the council themselves for any cost incurred due to the council's negligence in leaving this lump? Not fair that their insurance, if any, should increase due to no fault of theirs.
> 
> To be honest I cannot be 100% sure whether or not there is insurance in place.


 

Can't answer all the 'what ifs'. The situation should be investigated and advice taken.


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## ajapale (13 Mar 2013)

Dermot said:


> So the guy that got "injured" as well as everyone else who uses this space are trespassing



The question of "adverse possession" or "trespass" does not arise in this case as it is a _*"public road*_" and the public have a right to pass regardless of the ownership.

Roads Act 1993: _*“public road”*_ means a road over which a public right of way  exists and the responsibility for the maintenance of which lies on a  road authority.


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## Guns N Roses (13 Mar 2013)

Vanilla said:


> All very well for posters here to say ignore it


 
I didn't suggest that the Op's friend should ignore the letter.

I was recommending that they wait for correspondence from the "injured party" before incurring any costs as a result of taking legal action.


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## 44brendan (13 Mar 2013)

Absolutely. A letter from the Council does not indicate either that any claim will be made or that such a claim has any validity. If your next door neighbour had written a similar letter, would you feel that he is correct in deflecting a liability on to you. Unless a claim is actually made by the injured party then there should be no need to advise the insurance company. Check this out first with a solicitor before taking any further action!


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