# Parking ticket & summons for parking in a loading bay



## rrrrrrrrrr (25 Apr 2012)

Last August, at 6:45pm one evening, I parked briefly outside a local shop to pick up something for dinner on the way home from work. 
All the other shops on the strip were closed and this shop closes at 7pm so they were starting to get ready to close up. The sign said it was a loading bay and no parking was permitted until after 7pm, but clearly all deliveries were well finished by this time so I chanced it.

I came out after 5 min in the shop to find a parking ticket on the car. I was furious, as were the shop keepers. Surely the whole idea of the parking restrictions is to facilitate  local commerce and ticketing their customers as they spend money in these shops with not a delivery van in sight is doing the exact opposite? This ticket was issued purely to generate income for the council. No wonder local shops all over the country are closing down, as out of town superstores with free parking selling less and less Irish products take over. 

Anyway, feeling that the ticket was unfair, I ignored the reminders and have just received a summons to appear in court in September. 

If I go along and argue my case, do you think I am likely to have a sympathetic hearing? Am I being reasonable or is it a case of 'the law's the law'?

Thanks in advance
R


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## flossie (25 Apr 2012)

You can appeal a parking ticket - I did recently and was successful. However, you should do this at the initial stages of the ticket. I would not think that the courts would pay too much attention to your appeal in this instance. 

Many shops take deliveries after normal trading hours to minimise disruption to customers, and therefore i would expect this is the reason parking restrictions are enforced.


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## niceoneted (25 Apr 2012)

It is all reasonable and makes sense what you say, but is that a way for you to justify why you shouldn't have to pay the parking fine or accept that you were summonsed. 
The court will only be interested in fact. You parked where there was a parking restriction, you got a ticket, you failed to pay it so you are summonsed to court. 
If you had a grievance at the time of getting the ticket that was the time to appeal it.


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## extopia (26 Apr 2012)

You parked where you shouldn't have. You got caught. I don't think you have any case at all! You will be wasting the court's time - the argument about supporting local business makes no sense at all, in my opinion. It is possible to support local business without parking in loading bays.


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## gianni (26 Apr 2012)

I wouldn't think you have a case. You parked illegally and ignored the ticket...


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## Time (26 Apr 2012)

I used to be a traffic warden.

A council is not obliged to consider any appeals prior to a summons. They might out of goodwill but they don't have to. A judge will consider your appeal fairly. To say a judge won't be interested is complete hogwash. I had many a ticket rejected by the council being successfully dismissed in court. There is absolutely no obligation to write to the council first.


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## Bronte (26 Apr 2012)

You were in the wrong, that is a fact.  

But you might meet a kindly judge on a good day.  Or you should just pay up now and avoid further costs.  2nd option is best.  I cannot see how a judge could be sympathetic to the case you've outlined.  


If it's consolation most of us have been through this scenario, and I'd probably have done the same thing as yourself, but certainly if I got a ticket for it, I'd  pay up and never risk it again.  It's lifes learning curve.


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## sean.c (26 Apr 2012)

My dad's recently retired after many years as a traffic warden in a largish town.  The judge will consider all circumstances and whether the ticket was issued fairly.

I think you have a good chance, however isn't the fine a lot bigger if you go to court?

My dad frequently had to attend court for this type of issue only for the plaintiff to adruptly pay the ticket on the advice of the solicitor, so the judge could dismiss the case.


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## Time (26 Apr 2012)

> however isn't the fine a lot bigger if you go to court?


Not always. I have seen many cases dismissed or have the probation of offenders act applied. 

You can get pigged headed council officials who would refuse to entertain any sort of appeal only for the case to be dismissed on hearing by a judge.

Telling people to pay up is bad advice esp if the councils evidence is bad or there are defects in the procedures used to establish restrictions. I am sure if the boot was on the other foot the opinions would be different.


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## Guns N Roses (26 Apr 2012)

rrrrrrrrrr said:


> The sign said it was a loading bay and no parking was permitted until after 7pm, but clearly all deliveries were well finished by this time so I chanced it.


 
As you have said you were aware that parking was not permitted but chanced it anyway.

You took a chance and lost!

I would pay the fine and stop trying to justify your actions.


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## Time (26 Apr 2012)

How do you know the restriction is even legal?


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## Guns N Roses (26 Apr 2012)

Time said:


> I am sure if the boot was on the other foot the opinions would be different.


 
I can honestly say my opinion would not be any different if it was on the other foot. I have in the past received parking fines where I knowingly parked in a "not permitted zone". In those cases I took the chance knowing that I would pay the fine if I was caught.

You can argue if it is legal or not. It doesn't change the fact that the OP knowingly parked in a "No Parking" Zone


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## rrrrrrrrrr (26 Apr 2012)

I realize that technically what I did was illegal and that technically I am in the wrong. 

But my point is that the whole reason for loading bays and associated parking restrictions in the first place, is to HELP shops and business to stay in business, make money, create jobs and get us back on our feet. Dishing out tickets like this is hurting both the customer and the shop owner and as I said, encouraging people to forsake their local familly run businesses ( in this case, Cavistons of Glasthule, who sell mostly home made or local products) in favour of out of town, 24hr, UK superstores where even the prepacked sandwiches are imported and you need to search hard to find something Irish for your dinner.

Sorry to rant, but councils should be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Our local bookshop in Dalkey closed last week, another place where you're likely to be nabbed if you leave your car for 2 mins. 

As you can see I have strong opinions on this subject and I do genuinely try to shop local, but I guess it's Tesco's and Amazon.com for me from now on


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## markpb (26 Apr 2012)

rrrrrrrrrr said:


> But my point is that the whole reason for loading bays and associated parking restrictions in the first place, is to HELP shops and business to stay in business, make money, create jobs and get us back on our feet



What's your solution? Loading bays exist so that transport companies can get stuff into the shops - without them, there'd be nothing for you to buy. If people weren't ticketed for parking there, they would (like you did) abuse them by parking there all the time. 

Anyway, if parking restrictions or loading bay operating times were excessive, wouldn't the shops nearby have petitioned the council to change the times?


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## Bronte (27 Apr 2012)

rrrrrrrrrr said:


> I realize that technically what I did was illegal and that technically I am in the wrong.


 
What's with the technical.  You parked illegally, you knew it, you got caught, and you pay the fine.  

If we didn't have parking rules nobody would be able to park anywhere, that is the reason they fine and clamp people.


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## dereko1969 (27 Apr 2012)

rrrrrrrrrr said:


> I realize that technically what I did was illegal and that technically I am in the wrong.
> 
> But my point is that the whole reason for loading bays and associated parking restrictions in the first place, is to HELP shops and business to stay in business, make money, create jobs and get us back on our feet. Dishing out tickets like this is hurting both the customer and the shop owner and as I said, encouraging people to forsake their local familly run businesses ( in this case, Cavistons of Glasthule, who sell mostly home made or local products) in favour of out of town, 24hr, UK superstores where even the prepacked sandwiches are imported and you need to search hard to find something Irish for your dinner.
> 
> ...


 
There's no technical about it. And there are plenty of paid parking spaces near Cavistons or God Forbid within a 100 metres walk of it, same with Dalkey. You decided to be cheap and not pay, took a chance and it backfired on you. It's no excuse to not shop in those places, playing the "green card" is pathetic.

By the way there are plenty of restaurants open on that strip at 645pm so you're being economical with the truth there.


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## bullworth (27 Apr 2012)

The OP may have broken the law going by the technicalities of the law but isn't the spirit of the law supposed to be about serving the people ? That's why people use such language as ''technical'' because although many chance their arms many also possess an instinctive understanding of  human concepts such as common sense and what's practical in the service of the spirit of the law. How is the citizenry served by the law if someone get's  a ticket or clamped in 2 minutes when parking on a street where there is no traffic and no competition for spaces ? Could he not have been observed, noted and given ten minutes to make a transaction so long as he was not parking dangerously and so long as there was an abundance of spaces for others ? The OP has a duty to others to fight it in court but probably also a duty to himself to probably put up with it and pay


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## ajapale (27 Apr 2012)

Did the OP challenge the ticket immediately with the council together with any mitigating facts? 

And as Time mentioned above did the OP investigate the legality of the ticket by checking the parking by laws, road markings and signs?


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## michaelm (27 Apr 2012)

rrrrrrrrrr said:


> If I go along and argue my case, do you think I am likely to have a sympathetic hearing?


I doubt it.  I'd agree with bullworth that nothing was served by issuing a ticket but in your position now I'd pay the fine (if that's still an option?) and look to avoid court.


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## beffers (27 Apr 2012)

bullworth said:


> How is the citizenry served by the law if someone get's  a ticket or clamped in 2 minutes when parking on a street where there is no traffic and no competition for spaces ?
> 
> *Business owners and delivery drivers are citizenry too. Their needs are served by delivery vans being able to deliver the goods to their premises & drivers being able to do their jobs without worrying where to park. Clampers and traffic wardens are not mind readers. How are they supposed to know that someone is only going to be there 2 minutes?* ..
> 
> ...




Sorry. No sympathy for the OP. I used to work for a company that did off  site catering jobs. Our drivers lives were made very hard by  inconsiderate drivers who couldn't be bothered finding proper parking.  They'd park in our loading bay spots, if they just "popping in" to the  offices for a quickie visit. We'd have to park in a regular spot with no  ramps, no clearance & no room for carts or trolleys. It made  loading and unloading our vans very, very hard. 

Just some perspective from the other side of the fence.


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## dereko1969 (27 Apr 2012)

Op might find some relevant info here

[broken link removed]


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## extopia (28 Apr 2012)

rrrrrrrrrr said:


> I am in the wrong. (



Grand so.



rrrrrrrrrr said:


> Our local bookshop in Dalkey closed last week, another place where you're likely to be nabbed if you leave your car for 2 mins.
> (



It's likely that the local bookshop closed because local Dalkey residents (i.e. its customer base) do not value local bookshops. I've never heard a book enthusiast yet say that they don't visit the local bookshop because there is no parking.

It really is time to get beyond this car obsession we all seem to have, with related convictions about the right to place the heap of metal down at our own convenience wherever we like.


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## Jim2007 (28 Apr 2012)

rrrrrrrrrr said:


> I realize that technically what I did was illegal and that technically I am in the wrong.



Look it is really very simple, you do not get to pick and choose which laws you are going to obey and which not!



rrrrrrrrrr said:


> As you can see I have strong opinions on this subject and I do genuinely try to shop local, but I guess it's Tesco's and Amazon.com for me from now on



If you do not agree with a law, then campaigne to have it changed, have your strong opinions led you to do this??


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## RichInSpirit (28 Apr 2012)

I got a parking ticket recently in the post and it was from the Gardai.  For parking on a double yellow line, but it was outside a church and on a Sunday. I wasn't blocking any access etc. and i was very miffed at the Gardai.
Money collection racket.  But i will pay it so as to have an easy life. But i will explain my grievances too while paying the fine.


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## niceoneted (28 Apr 2012)

so just because it is a SUnday and is outside a church blocking no access means it's pk to park on a double yellow line - which actually means no parking at any time. 
It may be a case that if two cars were parked on both sides of the road at the same time it would block the road.


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## Jim2007 (28 Apr 2012)

RichInSpirit said:


> I got a parking ticket recently in the post and it was from the Gardai.  For parking on a double yellow line, but it was outside a church and on a Sunday. I wasn't blocking any access etc. and i was very miffed at the Gardai.
> Money collection racket.  But i will pay it so as to have an easy life. But i will explain my grievances too while paying the fine.



Double yellow lines are there for a reason - unless you were sitting in your car all the time, you have no idea if you caused an obstruction or not... and since you knew what you were doing, you choose to contribute to their collection!


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## extopia (29 Apr 2012)

He probably just didn't realise that the double yellow applies on Sunday. But he knows now. No harm done.


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## Time (29 Apr 2012)

Not even God can save you on a Sunday.


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## rrrrrrrrrr (30 Apr 2012)

Looks like I'm not the only one......

http://www.independent.ie/national-...nd-fees-drive-off-local-shoppers-3067688.html

"there is a real perception among retailers and other businesses of failed parking control in the area with 80 per cent considering the current tough regulation and enforcement as "bad".


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## rrrrrrrrrr (7 May 2012)

Yesterday's Independent...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/parking-regime-blamed-for-trade-fall-3101461.html


"more than 60 shops have closed in the main shopping areas in the town.....Some traders blame a very tough parking regime in Dun Laoghaire as a factor which has contributed to the area's decline in trade......In three years....more than 100,000 parking fines were issued"


Meanwhile in today's Irish Times:
[broken link removed]

"Ireland’s independent retail sector shrunk by half during the boom years, while the multiples grew by more than 60 per cent in the five years between 2001 and 2006. However, it is a fact that local shops return 32 cents of every euro spent to the local economy, because they’re more likely to purchase locally too, while the return from multiples trucking in most of their supplies from abroad amounts to just 16 cents of every euro in the revenue they earn.The availability of free parking in out-of-town retailing locations has undoubtedly made them more attractive than city or town centres with “pay-and-display” schemes or multi-storey carparks charging exhorbitant rates."


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## PaddyBloggit (7 May 2012)

but you still broke the law .... should this not be continued in Letting Off Steam?


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## RichInSpirit (11 Dec 2012)

*Update*



RichInSpirit said:


> I got a parking ticket recently in the post and it was from the Gardai.  For parking on a double yellow line, but it was outside a church and on a Sunday. I wasn't blocking any access etc. and i was very miffed at the Gardai.
> Money collection racket.  But i will pay it so as to have an easy life. But i will explain my grievances too while paying the fine.



Anyway I ended up not paying the fine in time, and ended up in court. 
The charge was dismissed, so no fine at all  

I don't think it was pull, unless it was the man above.


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## Time (11 Dec 2012)

Well done for sticking to your guns and for fighting city hall.


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## RichInSpirit (11 Dec 2012)

Lol ! 
I didn't even get a chance to speak in my defence.


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