# Should MABS be advising property investors?



## Complainer (21 Jul 2009)

I really hope that MABS scarce resources are not being used up to advise people on how to manage their property investments. Please sell your other assets before you go taking up time of the MABS people.


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## Brendan Burgess (22 Jul 2009)

I have split this post from this thread. 

As a taxpayer who is funding MABS, I certainly don't have a problem with it helping ordinary people who need help. Just as I don't have a problem with MABS helping people who are in difficulty due to gambling or a reckless lifestyle. 

As it happens, MABS are getting a lot of queries from business people who are in financial trouble and they are working with the [broken link removed] to provide these people with a free service.

Brendan


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## BoscoTalking (22 Jul 2009)

Brendan said:


> As a taxpayer who is funding MABS, I certainly don't have a problem with it helping ordinary people who need help. Just as I don't have a problem with MABS helping people who are in difficulty due to gambling or a reckless lifestyle.


in the first instance ordinary people did screw up buying into the whole property portfolio lark and now i don't see how complainer is really wrong - sell the lot or try first before heading off to MABS and 
I do have sympathy with a gambler- it is an addiction that can be overcome but if it means it ruins family lives as well as the person themselves then why not let MABS help them?


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## Brendan Burgess (22 Jul 2009)

I am not arguing with the advice to sell the investment properties. 

But this takes time and those owners of investment properties who are in dire straits need advice and help. MABS is well placed to give it to them. 

Brendan


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## remey (22 Jul 2009)

What about someone with one investment property for instant? Paid stamp duty to govt at the time etc. Perhaps negative equity so cant sell? I think your comment was very narrow minded complainer.


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## Mpsox (22 Jul 2009)

If someone goes to MABS then they are accpeting that they have a financial problem and are attempting to do something about it. We should be encouraging people to go to MABS and not restricting it to people who don't hold investment property. After all, does it really matter if your finances are a mess because you bought a buy to let house or because you took out a car loan or borrowed lots of money to fund a lifestyle that for whatever reason you can no longer support?  

I'd much prefer to see MABS have the resources it needs to assist people. Perhaps the banks whose reckless lending is one of a number of reasons why people are in difficulty ( and I accept that there are other's including often the individuals concerned themselves) could be asked to make a financial "donation" to support MABS


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## huskerdu (22 Jul 2009)

I agree Mpsox, 
Complainer has decided that if you got into financial difficulty because you made a bad investment decision, then MABS should not be available to you, but if you got into financial difficulty because you bought a car that you couldn't afford, or because you spent two years living beyond your means buying shoes and Starbucks coffee that you couldn't afford then that is fine.  Very hard to separate out who deserves help. 

It is very difficult to have sympathy with some of the people who are up to their necks in debt because they thought living on credit was a good idea, and the boom would never end, but I do have sympathy, once someone will admit they are in trouble and be prepared to put up with the pain to solve their problems.


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## Complainer (22 Jul 2009)

huskerdu said:


> I agree Mpsox,
> Complainer has decided that if you got into financial difficulty because you made a bad investment decision, then MABS should not be available to you,


That's not what I said (or certainly not what I meant). If you are in debt as a result of a current property investment, then the first step should be to sell the property. In the original thread where this came up, the OP has substantial equity in their home, and was struggling to keep their head above water as a result of having bought two investment properties at the peak of the book. If MABS are dealing with these cases, they are effectively becoming property investment advisors, not 'keep a roof over our head' advisors. If the OP can't sell the property, it is because they are not setting a realistic price. Any property will sell - it is just a matter of the right price. 

Should Sean Dunne & Liam Carroll be expecting their MABS rep to sort out their financial woes? If not, where do you draw the line between personal finances and running investment businesses.

Given that many MABS offices currently have waiting lists of weeks or months, I would hope that they give priority to those with least assets (regardless of how they came to that situation).


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## Guest116 (22 Jul 2009)

Do you really think Sean Dunne and Liam Carroll will be going to talk to Mabs ?! Get real!


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## MANTO (22 Jul 2009)

of course there are genuine people out there who invested their hard earned savings in property on the advise of the 'experts'. Where the line needs to be drawn is a decision that should lie with MABS. 

Once the client has outlined their predicament MABS should then decide if they are in genuine need of help as i am sure there are plenty of penny pinchers out there with a stash of cash that will abuse the agency for free advice.


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## Complainer (22 Jul 2009)

aristotle25 said:


> Do you really think Sean Dunne and Liam Carroll will be going to talk to Mabs ?! Get real!


You're ignoring the key question. Where do you draw the line?


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## Guest116 (22 Jul 2009)

There is no line to be drawn, MABs is there for any individual who needs financial help\advice.

I don't understand the point of your post, so what if there are a few weeks waiting time. What else would you expect in the midst of a recession.


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## MANTO (22 Jul 2009)

aristotle25 said:


> There is no line to be drawn, MABs is there for any individual who needs genuine financial help\advice.
> 
> I don't understand the point of your post, so what if there are a few weeks waiting time. What else would you expect in the midst of a recession.


 
I agree but i stuck in a key word 

A friend of mine told me she was going to MABS and i laughed at her - i told to stop spending money on credit cards and department store cards for luxuries - MABS turned her away and said the exact same thing and to manage her own budget.


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## Mpsox (22 Jul 2009)

Complainer said:


> That's not what I said (or certainly not what I meant). If you are in debt as a result of a current property investment, then the first step should be to sell the property. In the original thread where this came up, the OP has substantial equity in their home, and was struggling to keep their head above water as a result of having bought two investment properties at the peak of the book. If MABS are dealing with these cases, they are effectively becoming property investment advisors, not 'keep a roof over our head' advisors. If the OP can't sell the property, it is because they are not setting a realistic price. Any property will sell - it is just a matter of the right price.
> 
> Should Sean Dunne & Liam Carroll be expecting their MABS rep to sort out their financial woes? If not, where do you draw the line between personal finances and running investment businesses.
> 
> ...


 
I wouldn't argue that selling a property may be the best action for many buy to let investors to take, however the investor may still be left with a sizable debt due to negative equity and even if they significantly discount the property they may not be able to sell in the current environmment. If MABS can give them other sensible advice, eg on budgeting, other high interest debt etc, why should a person be expected to wait for that advice until their property has sold?

. It's possible as well that some people may not even understand the implications of selling their property and their debt and if MABS can give advice to help people make a sensible, rational and informed decision, I'm all for it


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## Padraigb (22 Jul 2009)

Complainer said:


> ... If you are in debt as a result of a current property investment, then the first step should be to sell the property....



That's not always the best option. I'm sure that MABS could do better than that.


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## Complainer (22 Jul 2009)

aristotle25 said:


> I don't understand the point of your post, so what if there are a few weeks waiting time. What else would you expect in the midst of a recession.


I'd expect that the limited resource of MABS would be focused on those who are trying to keep a roof over their own heads and food on their own table, rather than manage their property investments.

Should we expect the Community Welfare Officer to buy furniture to go into the investment property too, if the investor is in dire straits?


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## Guest116 (22 Jul 2009)

Of course they wouldn't do that.

I dont think MABs manage peoples property investments. Do you have specifuc evidence or are you just talking about something you dont actually know happens.


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## Complainer (22 Jul 2009)

aristotle25 said:


> Of course they wouldn't do that.
> 
> I dont think MABs manage peoples property investments. Do you have specifuc evidence or are you just talking about something you dont actually know happens.



My comment was originally made on this thread in the context of recommendations for a poster who is struggling with her property investments to go to MABS. I've no idea whether this is happening or not.

I'd be very surprised if MABS staff are trained to deal with property investment matters. If they were, would they need to be qualified (IFA?) and regulated by the FR? Would they be competing with commercial advisors?

MABS should not be dealing with this kind of case, unless they are twiddling their thumbs with nothing else to do.


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## Elphaba (23 Jul 2009)

Complainer, your logic is astonishingly arrogant. MABS help people in debt
from all walks of life. You can be certain they are not twiddling their thumbs.


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## Complainer (24 Jul 2009)

Elphaba said:


> Complainer, your logic is astonishingly arrogant. MABS help people in debt
> from all walks of life. You can be certain they are not twiddling their thumbs.


I'm well aware that they are not twiddling their thumbs, which is why they need to focus their resources on people that are struggling to put food on the table, not people who are struggling to keep their investment portfolio intact.


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## Sue Ellen (25 Jul 2009)

Complainer said:


> not people who are struggling to keep their investment portfolio intact.



Its quite obvious from the original thread that the lady in question is certainly not concerned only with her property portfolio but rather struggling to keep her/her family's head above water  hence her point "I am finding it really difficult to make ends meet and am continually under pressure".

Anyone of a religious background would probably have to say 'there but for the grace of God go I".


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## Complainer (25 Jul 2009)

Sue Ellen said:


> Anyone of a religious background would probably have to say 'there but for the grace of God go I".


Might they also be thinking about which of the seven deadly sins was involved in buying two apartments?



Sue Ellen said:


> Its quite obvious from the original thread that the lady in question is certainly not concerned only with her property portfolio but rather struggling to keep her/her family's head above water hence her point "I am finding it really difficult to make ends meet and am continually under pressure".


I disagree. It is screamingly obvious that it is the investment properties that are pushing her over the edge, and she needs to get rid.

It also raises the question of whether it is appropriate for the State to be giving student grants to those with considerable assets, regardless of their income. This oul scam has been played out by some farmers and self-employed people for years, as they manipulate their income to ensure that the state pays out an additional subsidy.

I really hope that MABS are prioritising the delivery of their services, just like every other State body has to do.


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## Elphaba (25 Jul 2009)

Mabs ethos is to help people in debt from all walks of life who bought what they thought were investment properties facilitated by financial advisors and banks who recklessly lent money. The banks and our government are not doing enough to help people in debt, with waiting lists of up to 2 weeks for Mabs. There is a dreadful shame and stigma attached to debt, the media tip toe around it, it needs to be dealt with head on. There should be more Mabs agencies opened up around the country to deal with the growing no. of people in debt. Have you no compassion Complainer,
can you not see the bigger picture?


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## ajapale (27 Jul 2009)

Complainer said:


> I really hope that MABS are prioritising the delivery of their services, just like every other State body has to do.



I spoke to several MABS advisors a few years ago.

My understanding is that their bread and butter work is with individuals struggling with personal debt and low/no income.

Even a few years ago there was a small but increasing number of sole traders and small business people presenting with difficulties.

After meeting with this type of client and after an initial assessment the MABS advisor will advise the client to engage the relevant professional advisor/consultant (accountant, tax advisor, small business consultant, insolvency advisor, property professional etc). The MABS advisor will not offer advice in these professional specialities.


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## Brendan Burgess (27 Jul 2009)

And on that note...


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