# Form 11 and Form 12



## breaks (13 Apr 2010)

I note that if you income from a rented income is only 3K you can fill out form 11 or form 12. What are the pro's and con's?

Thanks.


----------



## Graham_07 (13 Apr 2010)

Form 12 is for those with mainly PAYE type income with little other income. It is more straightforward and does not involve the self-assessment system. If net liability is small it can often be collected by reduction of tax credits.

Form 11 is the full self-assessment tax return for those with non-PAYE income. You must also complete preliminary tax pay slip and tax payments are due by direct payment to Revenue annually. Late returns attract penalties. Late payment of tax attracts interest.


----------



## breaks (13 Apr 2010)

Graham_07 said:


> Form 12 is for those with mainly PAYE type income with little other income. It is more straightforward and does not involve the self-assessment system. If net liability is small it can often be collected by reduction of tax credits.
> 
> Form 11 is the full self-assessment tax return for those with non-PAYE income. You must also complete preliminary tax pay slip and tax payments are due by direct payment to Revenue annually. Late returns attract penalties. Late payment of tax attracts interest.


Thanks very much for that.

Is it possible to fill out a form 12 and just send them a cheque?  I doubt my net income is more than the limit and I have budgeted to pay what I owe.  Id prefer to get it out of the way and leave my tax credits as is.


----------



## Graham_07 (13 Apr 2010)

breaks said:


> Thanks very much for that.
> 
> Is it possible to fill out a form 12 and just send them a cheque?  I doubt my net income is more than the limit and I have budgeted to pay what I owe.  Id prefer to get it out of the way and leave my tax credits as is.



Once they issue the Balancing Statement with the net position you can request to pay it by cheque.


----------



## can'tcount (19 Apr 2010)

Hi,

Sorry to barge in on your thread but this is the most recent/relevant that I can see and would be grateful for any advice you could offer.

I am a PAYE worker but a number of years ago I recieved a one time additional income from a work share scheme. I applied to the revenue this year for payment on unclaimed tax credits over the last few years and I was informed that i am registered for income tax and need to fill out a form 11. I have looked at this form and would not know where to start filling it out or even if I should. Can you offer some advice?


----------



## Graham_07 (19 Apr 2010)

can'tcount said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry to barge in on your thread but this is the most recent/relevant that I can see and would be grateful for any advice you could offer.
> 
> I am a PAYE worker but a number of years ago I recieved a one time additional income from a work share scheme. I applied to the revenue this year for payment on unclaimed tax credits over the last few years and I was informed that i am registered for income tax and need to fill out a form 11. I have looked at this form and would not know where to start filling it out or even if I should. Can you offer some advice?



It looks like as a result of that one time additional income you were registered as a self-assessed taxpayer. If you have no non-PAYE income then you can request that the self-assessed file be closed and file F12 instead.


----------



## can'tcount (19 Apr 2010)

Thanks for that. Form 12 looks a bit more manageable.


----------



## Brendan Burgess (31 Jan 2011)

A friend has been sent back his Form 12 for 2009. As he has deposit income in excess of €3,000, he has been asked to complete a Form 11. 

1) Is there any way around this?
2) Does this mean that he must pay and file for 2010 immediately to avoid penalties for late payment? 
3) Could he be charged penalties for 2009 or 2010? 


Brendan


----------



## T McGibney (2 Feb 2011)

Hi Brendan



Brendan Burgess said:


> 1) Is there any way around this?



He could pick up the phone, or call into a Revenue office and try to plead with someone in Revenue to accept his Form 12. Whether it would be worth doing this is a moot point. It might be quicker (if somewhat infuriating) to actually complete the Form 11.



Brendan Burgess said:


> 2) Does this mean that he must pay and file for 2010 immediately to avoid penalties for late payment?



Pay & File only becomes an issue if he has a tax liability. He shouldn't have any significant liability from deposit interest as DIRT will cover the tax element although there may be a residual few euro on levies etc. 




Brendan Burgess said:


> 3) Could he be charged penalties for 2009 or 2010?



If he's a company director, yes, he could face a significant surcharge of 10% of his gross tax liability before PAYE deducted is taken into account. Otherwise, his eventual tax assessments may show a small surcharge, which is calculated at 10% of the residual tax liability after PAYE deductions.  If he is charged this, he should appeal it on the basis that he had previously completed Form 12 in good faith. I suggest that he should appeal it regardless of the amount involved, in order to preserve his record on Revenue files as a compliant taxpayer.


----------



## selfassessed (11 Feb 2011)

The revenue appeals process is a complete and utter waste of time.  You will just get back a standard letter stating that they have applied a 10% surcharge because the law says they can and if you didn't know they could that's your problem - ignorance of the law cannot be used as a defence.


----------



## mandelbrot (12 Feb 2011)

selfassessed said:


> ignorance of the law cannot be used as a defence.



I think this is an accepted principle in all, or almost all jurisdictions? Do you disagree with it?


----------



## mandelbrot (12 Feb 2011)

selfassessed said:


> The revenue appeals process is a complete and utter waste of time.  You will just get back a standard letter stating that they have applied a 10% surcharge because the law says they can



The type of appeal you describe is pretty much the same thing as being caught speeding, and then appealing the €80 fine - the Gardaí could do no more about that than the Revenue can in this case - you'd have to go directly to the legal route (arguing unconstitutionality or something?)

The appeals process is for cases where you believe that Revenue have interpreted the facts or the legislation incorrectly, which clearly they haven't - the fact is that the return *IS* late, and the legislation says if a return is late a surcharge applies.


----------



## T McGibney (12 Feb 2011)

mandelbrot said:


> The type of appeal you describe is pretty much the same thing as being caught speeding, and then appealing the €80 fine - the Gardaí could do no more about that than the Revenue can in this case - you'd have to go directly to the legal route (arguing unconstitutionality or something?)
> 
> The appeals process is for cases where you believe that Revenue have interpreted the facts or the legislation incorrectly, which clearly they haven't - the fact is that the return *IS* late, and the legislation says if a return is late a surcharge applies.



Revenue do consider force majeure factors in relation to surcharge waiver applications - quite reasonably in my experience.


----------



## selfassessed (12 Feb 2011)

mandelbrot said:


> The appeals process is for cases where you believe that Revenue have interpreted the facts or the legislation incorrectly, which clearly they haven't - the fact is that the return *IS* late, and the legislation says if a return is late a surcharge applies.



Yes exactly.  So there is no point in appealing.  Revenue have the fallback that they are entitled to apply this surcharge so they will.  And the appeals process isn't designed to affect policy (who can?  the ombusdman? TDs?).

Look, this surcharge is randomly applied and only in some cases.  Nobody but revenue knows what the criteria are.  I suspect lately it is being applied much more frequently to boost tax incomes.  But once it is applied you are totally wasting your time appealing against it unless you have cancer or your accountant died or something equally serious.

The late surcharge for self assessment is completely excessive and is out of line with other jurisdictions and even other Irish organisations.  The UK revenue charge a flat 300 pound fine for a late return.  In the US there is no penalty at all for a late return where a refund is due but there is a limitation of 3 years in which a refund can be claimed.  The Irish CRO charge a flat daily rate for late annual company returns.

But Irish revenue will charge you thousands of euro for being more than 2 months late filing a return regardless of whether or not you have any liability.  It's just wrong.


----------



## mandelbrot (12 Feb 2011)

T McGibney said:


> Revenue do consider force majeure factors in relation to surcharge waiver applications - quite reasonably in my experience.



Ditto in my experience.


----------

