# Legal apprenticeship: any tips on trying to find a trainee solicitor job



## Gabrielle

Hi 
Does anyone have any tips on trying to find a Trainee Solicitor position? 
Thanks!


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## examhell

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

Hi, have u finished your FE1'S?


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## Gabrielle

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

yes, but finding it really really difficult to find an apprenticeship!


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## examhell

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

have u applied to many?  most have this years blackhall quota filled


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## mallow

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

I'm an apprentice in a small firm, found it really hard to get one at the time.  The bigger firms would all be full for this year by now, but smaller firms will take people on over the next few months.  Are you on the Law Society's register?  That's how I got my place.   

A friend of mine literally wrote to every solicitor in the Law Directory, sent out hundreds, got a few interviews and finally got one.  If you're not set on getting into a big firm this can work but you need to be persistent.  Some work experience in a solicitors office would really help if you can get it while you're looking.  If you can type well you could find office junior type work over the summer.

Also, if you're prepared to go to smaller towns in the country, you'll find less competition.  Rural practices have trouble finding apprentices sometimes, but most apprentices want to stay in the cities.

I would advise you to really put in the time now to find one for Blackhall this autumn.  I was a bit laid back about it and spent a year after finishing the FE-1's working.  I could have been qualified last Christmas and earning real money by now!


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## examhell

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

Good for you Mallow, congratulations!  How are you getting on?  are you happy and enjoying the work?


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## mallow

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

Honestly, and I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, I don't really like it.  I was never really sure what I wanted to do and I'm still not.  If I knew of something else I'd love to do, I'd probably do it.  For most people I know it's the same.

I liked it for the first year, it is interesting going to court and you learn a lot of very useful stuff.  I still do like litigation and some family law and I could see myself being happy enough doing those.  Not conveyancing and probate though.  I think my main problem is I hate paying attention to detail!  When you read that in the job description for solicitors, most people think it's easy enough, but reading long leases and deeds is pretty boring to most people and it's your job to stay awake long enough to spot the problem, and to do that every single day.  If you mess up, there's always the fear of being sued or a complaint to the Law Society.  I also hate being stuck in an office on lovely sunny days all day long, but that's any full-time office job... 

A lot of my problem could be my office, hopefully when I qualify I'll find somewhere better, but I know there are worse places too.  It is well paid when you qualify, I don't know any unemployed solicitors and it takes huge effort and money to qualify, so it's hard to consider leaving.

I'd never regret doing it though, because you do learn invaluable skills in handling people.  They're often going through the most stress they ever will, some are angry, crazy, addicted to something, aggressive, bitter, rude and every other thing human beings can be.  You'll get to see and hear all of it (in an average smallish firm anyway).

The best part are the nice clients and having good people to work with.  Sometimes you do help people, you do more than you're paid for and sometimes they appreciate it.  You can also make yourself very useful to family and friends when they need advice.

I wouldn't advise doing it or any other job for the money or status.  Nothing makes up for it if you're bored or stressed out for most of your day, wishing you were doing something else.  And people do hate solicitors, we tend to tell taxi drivers we work in the bank to avoid speeches!!

Hope this isn't too negative, it's just my opinion and I'm sure there are other solicitors who enjoy their jobs.


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## Oilean Beag

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

I have just completed all FE 1 and Irish exam having finished law degree in UCD last summer. I have been looking for ann apprenticeship since Dec 04 -the first time I applied to the top 10 or so. I have had no luck really , a few letters saying you have a good CV and you should obtain an apprenticeship elsewhere, JUST NOT HERE THANKS.  As my mam says I could wallpaper my room with PFO's. 

I guess my problem is also that Im looking for a particular type of apprenticeship (NOT conveyancing), really want to work somewhere with an established programme and a period in a few different depts. Currently working in a v. small rural firm where I have an apprenticeship but the work and my employer (single solicitor practice) have really put me off this kind of work. 

Would I be mad to turn it down and chase the dream ?


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## Gabrielle

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

Thanks for the advice Mallow.
SNB I have spoken to a few Trainees and loads of them say you get better experience in these small rural practices because you are exposed to a wider variety of case load. I know lots of people apply to the big 5 mainly because they know all their fees will be paid for them!


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## Oilean Beag

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*


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## Bazoo

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*



SNB said:


> I have just completed all FE 1 and Irish exam having finished law degree in UCD last summer. I have been looking for ann apprenticeship since Dec 04 -the first time I applied to the top 10 or so. I have had no luck really , a few letters saying you have a good CV and you should obtain an apprenticeship elsewhere, JUST NOT HERE THANKS.  As my mam says I could wallpaper my room with PFO's.
> 
> I guess my problem is also that Im looking for a particular type of apprenticeship (NOT conveyancing), really want to work somewhere with an established programme and a period in a few different depts. Currently working in a v. small rural firm where I have an apprenticeship but the work and my employer (single solicitor practice) have really put me off this kind of work.
> 
> Would I be mad to turn it down and chase the dream ?



Yes, you would be absolutely insane. Just stick it out for the term of your apprenticeship. It's well-nigh impossible to get an apprecnticeship these days. If you want to get into the top 5 you are talking about 20 to 25 places for about 1600 applicants. There is probably no harm in applying and doing the interviews and your experience will stand to you in this respect. I wouldn't leave where you are now with nowhere to go to though. Are you going to Blackhall in September?


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## Oilean Beag

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

Oops, ........ well I've already done it. I've left the job ( & the secured apprenticeship) about 2 months now. I got a job as legal assistant to Corporate Counsel of large MNC and I am getting to do some really challenging, totally different work( & some travel).  A million miles away from the rural practice I was in. 

The main thing was I felt trapped in the old place,  went straight from college to there, did my FE1's. I just felt I was selling out on what I really wanted to do so I could get that qualification under my belt. My apprenticeship there would have been entirely conveyancing, something I had no interest in practising and on the advice of some recently qualified solicitors , I knew that pursuing a career in another specialisation would have been next to impossible. 

The hard thing was leaving the security & the people I worked with ( who were great & I really miss them). If this very unusual position Im in now had not come along I would probably have agonised over what to do for another long while. 

Im now hoping to get into Blackhall in 2007 or 2008 and Im even considering the New York Bar...... I think I have done the right thing , I know Im happier now and there is at least some POSSIBILITY that I will get the training contract I want.


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## miak

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

Hi,

My question is slightly off the point here but I would still appreciate any opinion/advice. I am moving to London in Sept to start an LLM. I'm not doing this solely for the purposes of securing a training contract but I am concerned that my subject choice could have an adverse effect on my applications. If I were to take mostly criminal law subjects would I effectively be ruling myself out of competition for a contract in a non criminal firm? Conversely if I don't concentrate heavily on Criminal Law will I still have a chance of a training contract in a criminal firm? From friends, collegues etc I have been told that the bigger criminal firms usually only take apprentices with Masters in Crim.


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## Oilean Beag

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

Miak, 

The very reason I left my old place was that I would not get exposure to the work I was interested in & therefore not be able to 'sell' myself to those firms that do that work after qualification. I think that you should study what interests you and what you genuinely want to specialise in. 

There are a number of solicitors who frequent this site, hopefully they might be able to give you more concrete advice than I can i.e not just based on hopes & dreams


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## Vanilla

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

miak, I think you probably already know the answer to your question. Yes you will have a better chance at an apprenticeship in a specialised criminal law firm if you do further studies in that area and yes, if you become too specialised a non-specialised firm might write you off as possibly leaving in the middle of training or immediately thereafter if a specialised position becomes available to you, or even write you off as being too specialised. You can always correct this by doing some non-specialised work experience afterwards as experience will always count more than actual qualifications in the real world. My advice- if you are passionate about an area of law, go for it.


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## sheena1

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

I have just started with a small solicitors firm and the work is mostly conveyancing. If somebody told me this is where I would be 12 months ago I would not have believed it but the reality is that it is very difficult to secure an apprenticeship and after sending out hundreds of CV's I was very grateful for the opportunity. I think I could have had the Attorney General's C.V. and most of the firms still would not have met with me   This is not the direction I saw my career moving in but I am trying to look on the next few years until I qualify as a learning experience. What I am trying to say to you is go ahead and enjoy your masters but do not rule out any apprenticeships purely on the basis that the firm does not specialise in Criminal Law. 
When I was moaning on AAB about the difficulty in securing an apprenticeship somebody posted a reply saying "what's for you won't go by you" I cringed at the time but 'fraid it's true.... Best of Luck with the Masters.


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## miak

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

Hi,

Thanks a mill for the advice, opinions, hopes, dreams etc  I certainly would not rule out any apprenticeship because it does not have enough criminal law, in fact I'd be happy with any contract that isn't mostly conveyancing or commerical law! It's just a bit difficult to decide what the best thing to do is, as I haven't actually applied for any training contracts yet I haven't been rejected and so have no real experience to learn from. It's hard to figure out in advance what firms are really looking for!


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## think tank

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

I'll be frank.  Small to medium sized firms are looking for a person 
1. preferebly with some type of office experience. 
2. shows some form of dealing / interacting with people in the past, without causing friction
3. When you get the job


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## mmclo

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

I would have thought the days of conveyancing are numbered surely para legals will be doing it in 5-10 years time


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## miak

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*



think tank said:


> I'll be frank. Small to medium sized firms are looking for a person
> 1. preferebly with some type of office experience.
> 2. shows some form of dealing / interacting with people in the past, without causing friction
> 3. When you get the job


 
Thanks think tank,

Presumably though there are hundreds of candidates with office experience and good interpersonal skills etc. What is difficult to figure out are those things which firms prioritise when applicants are of a similar standard. For e.g is quality work experience better than good grades? How much credence is given to extra-curricular activities? I know alot depends on the size of the firm etc but there are alot of 2.1 law degrees floating around so how do firms differentiate?


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## Ralphie

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship: Any tips on trying to find a Trainee Solicitor Posn?*

I notice in the big firms the partners love really good looking blonde apprentices who hang on their every word.


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## Oilean Beag

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship: Any tips on trying to find a Trainee Solicitor Posn?*

A bottle of Clariol it is so..... 

Bit cheaper than a masters


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## Vanilla

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship: Any tips on trying to find a Trainee Solicitor Posn?*

Ralphie might be making a joke, but many legal firms are very image conscious. You don't need to be good-looking, but you do need to be polished and groomed. That means ( for women) - before the interview- get your hair done - sleek and professional is the look you are aiming for- so if you have long hair consider an 'up-do'. A good suit- not too much flesh showing- but you can be trendy. Good shoes. Get the suit pressed beforehand. Actually that probably applies pretty much to the men now too.


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## Ralphie

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship: Any tips on trying to find a Trainee Solicitor Posn?*

Actually, I'm deadly serious.


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## audioline

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship: Any tips on trying to find a Trainee Solicitor Posn?*

Hi all,

I have been called up for a couple of interviews next week with 2 of the smaller firms. The C.V. basically says I have worked in IT for the past 6
years, have I.T. qualifications, worked part-time in small law firm for past year.
I am obviously keen to make a good impresion and give a good account of myself at these interviews having failed to secure any interviews for '06 entrance to the law society(bad timing, no-one recruiting)
I am basically looking for a heads up on the style of questioning I may encounter and if I will be grilled on the work experience as obviously study and work took up the majority of my time leaving little room for the w/e

Thanks in advance


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## Ralphie

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship: Any tips on trying to find a Trainee Solicitor Posn?*

Would the below be of interest? You might even get your photo in the Gazettee! Har, Har!

FINDING YOUR TRAINING CONTRACT SEMINAR: DATE The Traineeship section of the Law School have set the date for the next *Finding Your Training Contract* Seminar.
*Date:* Friday 26 January 2007
*Time:* 12.30pm to 6.00pm 
*Venue:* Law Society, Blackhall Place, Dublin 7
*Fee:* €40 (lunch included)
The seminar’s primary focus is to provide practical advice and assistance to anyone who is or who will be looking to secure a training contract. It is hoped that those delegates who attend on the day will leave the seminar better equipped in their search for that all important position. The seminar will also provide information on the job market generally and applying to the Law School.
More details about the seminar including a detailed programme and how to book your place will be posted on the Law Society's website (events section) on *1st December 2006*. Bookings will not be accepted before this date.


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## dats_right

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship: Any tips on trying to find a Trainee Solicitor Posn?*

wwwhttp://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/postgraduate/laws/index.shtml


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## miak

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship: Any tips on trying to find a Trainee Solicitor Posn?*

Does anyone know when the best time to start applying for training contracts is? Ideally I'd like to go to blackhall Oct '07. I know the big ten all have their deadlines but what about smaller firms? Is there a best time? If I start sending in CVs now is that too early? I won't be available to start until next summer.


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## audioline

Miak,

From personal experience you will have great difficulty finding placement for Oct '07 if you can only start next summer reason being they seem to want you in the office for a year or so on low wages before they (supposedly) pay you for the nine month stint in Blackhall and presumably to see if you are any use. I was ready to go for Sept this year and was sending out C.V.s 4-5 months ago but didn`t get an interview. I have had 3 interviews in the space a week for the '07 entry but 2 were advertised like the one dats right mentioned (250-300 applications).So in short, they seem to be recruiting now for '07 but they would probably expect you to start now aswell.


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## examhell

is it ok though to submit up to the Firm's Nov 3rd deadline for entry to Blackhll in 07


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## miak

Thanks for that audioline,

It was honest even if it wasn't what I wanted to hear!  I think it does depend though, a friend of mine got a contract with the big ten and she is not starting with them until next summer so she is doing a masters in the meantime. I suppose the big ten do have a different set of rules. I'm slightly worried now, I am starting a Masters in 2weeks but I think I'd rather not do it if it meant postponing blackhall by a year... but then if I don't do it there is no guarantee that I will get a contract or that I would get one that would want me to start straight away! What to do!!! AAGGHH!!!


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## miak

Examhell,

If it is one of the bigger firms who have the Nov 3rd deadline I think they might only be hiring for '08. Anyone who I knew who interviewed with them last year were all applying for '07!


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## Saudi

Just as a matter of interest but who are the "Big 10"?


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## sheena1

I am starting a Masters in 2weeks but I think I'd rather not do it if it meant postponing blackhall by a year... but then if I don't do it there is no guarantee that I will get a contract or that I would get one that would want me to start straight away! What to do!!! AAGGHH!!![/quote]

I completed fe-1 earlier this year and had been offered a place on a Masters course for the Autumn which I would have loved to do. However after hearing from everybody how hard it is to get an apprenticeship when I eventually found one which would enable me to go to Blackhall next year I had to take it. It means forfeiting the Masters and working for the year on crap wages but at least I have a place secured. I am consoling myself with the fact that I can do the Masters when I have qualified. If I were you I would continue looking for a place while studying for the Masters and when you do get a contract you can evaluate all your options knowing what the solicitor will expect from you. They may not want you to start immediately or may want you part-time.  Did you have to pay fees to do the Masters? If not then you have nothing to loose by doing it really....


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## Megan

Did you have to pay fees to do the Masters? If not then you have nothing to loose by doing it really....

What do you mean do you have to pay fees. Doesn't everyone have to pay fees. I think you should have asked - is he/she getting a grant if so the fees are paid for them by their local authority. Fees have to be paid by somebody - dont they?


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## miak

Hi,

thanks for the replies above, unfortunately I do have to pay fees! Even more unfortunately because I'm doing the Masters outside of Ireland it is going to cost thousands. I am actually at the orientation week at the moment and I'm beginning to feel like I'm doing the wrong thing. If i'm honest it is really important to me to get to blackhall next Oct. I haven't actually paid my fees yet so I still have time to decide. It's funny, everyone I know that is in the same position as me feels that it's really important to do the Masters but any practising solicitor I have spoken to feels differently. I do have good work experience, maybe that would be enough!!?? I'm off to make an emergency telephone call to my old careers advisor...

Saudi,

The big ten are those firms who are regarded as being the biggest commercial law firms, predominantly in Dublin. They tend to pay the best wages for apprentices and will also pay your fees, that's why training contracts with them are so sought after.


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## sheena1

Ya I would have had to pay fees also. (everyone is entitled to free fees for one undergraduate and one postgraduate course in Ireland). That was the clincher for me. When does your course finish? Have you applied to the "top 10" this year for entry next year? There will be a glut of applications for apprentices in December when October's Fe-1 results come out and also next May/June so at least you will some time advantage over them. Best of Luck whatever you decide. Things happen for a reason.....


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## miak

Thanks Sheena1,

I know, it was sickening to think that I could have completed a Masters in Ireland for a fraction of the cost in the UK. Was just talking to a careers advisor in my old university and she suggested deferring for a while. She agreed that most people feel that their Masters didn't significantly enhance their career unless they wanted to go in to academia. She also felt that it was slightly more relevant for people who want to become barristers or highly specialised! Good luck with your training contract! I'm envious...


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## Oilean Beag

AFAIK you can only get your fees paid for a Masters if you qualify for the local authority grant or if the Masters is a research one funded by scholarship or industry.  

I opted out of the Masters in the end too based on the info I got from qualified solicitors as I would like to go to Blackhall in 2007 too.  I chose a Diploma course instead. I don't think however it alone will secure anything. Ive got all 8 exams now so Im just going to concentrate on securing apprenticeship.  

I think the right attitude will help us all no end & is very important. I try not to listen to the un-well wishers . 

Best of luck


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## examhell

Hi SNB, Which diploma did you go for?


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## Sherman

sheena1 said:


> Ya I would have had to pay fees also. (everyone is entitled to free fees for one undergraduate and one postgraduate course in Ireland)


 
No they're not - everyone is entitled to one free undergraduate course only. You most certainly have to pay for the vast majority of postgraduate courses, and pay through the nose at that.


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## Oilean Beag

Diploma in Employment Law in UCD..... My choice was based on my own  interest & time commitment required for the course. Working fulltime & pretty tired out from Fe-1's & finals so I thought the Diploma was a good middle ground. Trying to get some balance back into my life.... and commiting to a 2 year part time Masters was not the way to achieve that !

Finding it quite a good course so far.


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## examhell

Hi, ive signed up to do the Law Soc Dip in Employmenbt Law starting in October.  I am sitting EU , my final FE1 in oct and then intend applying for an apprenticeship in Nov for Blackhall 2007 admission.  Do u have an apprenticeship & o u think teh dip helped u get it?


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## Ana

would the commerical property or financial law diplomas not be more beneficial for getting an apprenticeship? more relevant to commerical law for any of the bigger places?

would anyone who's FINISHED one of these recommend them? or will it make much difference when seeking an apprenticeship?


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## dats_right

vv


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## bor

going for an interview for trainee solicitor with a mid sized commercial firm next week...any tips or advice as to what type of questions to expect.


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## December

bor said:


> going for an interview for trainee solicitor with a mid sized commercial firm next week...any tips or advice as to what type of questions to expect.


 

Have a look at their website.  See what kind of firm they market themselves as.  Then try to find examples of how you have those same qualities.  Research the partners - why do you want to work there specifically?  What kind of training environment do you expect?


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## audioline

As someone who has just secured an apprenticeship I thaught I would give my 2 cents worth. As dats-right mentioned, having your C.V. on their desk when they are recruiting is important obviously. From now until December is critical because the results will be out and a deluge will follow.
I attended 4 interviews and got one. If you have specialist degrees,masters,experience or training in certain areas and want to concentrate on matching these with specific firms go right ahead but I went the en masse route. 
I would disagree with dats-right on the emailing. I emailed my C.V. and cover letter to every firm with an email address, which was most of them, and got most of my interviews this way. Its quicker to send them, you get a prompt reply and its a hell of a lot cheaper. 
Try the advertised vacancies but be aware you are a 200-1 shot. Interviews with larger firms may be more formal, competency based affairs with questions like "What is your greatest achievement?". Smaller firms tend to be less formal and try to see will you fit in. Both may ask you why you want to be a solicitor so have that one ready.
OK I am off to get my suit pressed so good luck to all of you.

ps: Everyone gets one in the end so don't worry too much.


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## dats_right

vv


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## ae6

I sent out loads of CV's to get an apprenticeship. I did a lot of
interviews with large and medium sized firms and no joy. Finally, a Solicitors firm saw my CV posted on the Law Society website and called me for interview and thats the one I got. I think its a matter of a Solicitor deciding that they need an apprentice on a particularly stressful day and your CV just matching their requirements. Most are looking for the least stressful, quickest way of finding someone reliable to reduce their workload.
In my interview and cover letter I put it across that that I understood that my purpose was to reduce their workload (Sounds cringy but who cares if it gets you the job?) I also followed up the interview with a letter saying that I was really impressed with their firm and very interested and hoped that they would consider me for the position.
Hope this helps.


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## miak

Hi all,

Just wanted to add that I put my CV on the Law Soc website a couple of weeks ago and I have an interview with a firm next week! Originally I thought that it would be a bit of a waste of time and that I was more likely to get an interview by sending out cvs myself but I was pleasantly suprised! Would definitely recommend it to anyone looking for a contract!


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## Trafford

I have 6 FE-1s and am waiting for the results of the last 2. I work as a para-legal in-house in a large bank in the IFSC. The company have been unable to committ to me as yet whether they can give me an apprenticeship, so much so that I am keeping my options open and applying to firms. I live in the midlands so ideally would like not to have to commute. However, should my company offer me an apprenticeship (which they have done with other staff in the past so it's not beyond the realms of possibility), I fear that I will qualify with a very narrow CV. In the future then if I wished to work in a firm in the midlands, my large amount of banking experience might stand against me. Would you agree? Would a general practice be a better place to train, bearing in mind I don't see my future in banking (albeit because I want to cut down the commute)? On the other hand, if I am offered a place here my salary remains the same, plus all my perks. My fees will be paid and all in all it will be much better financially for me. I have a mortgage to think about! What would be the better option? Accept a place here if offered, or accept one in the midlands in general practice, if offered?

Any thoughts and advice welcome.


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## MOB

Your banking connections- properly cultivated - will stand to you in later years as a source of referral business.  I would stay put and get the varied practical work experience after qualifying.  As part of your apprenticeship, your employer might allow you spend time on secondment to one of the firms of solicitors who work for the bank; this would be a good move for you also.  If you want to PM me, I would certainly consider taking a banking apprentice on a six-month secondment, but so (I rather imagine) would many other firms.


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## Oilean Beag

In order to get an in house apprenticeship does there have to be a certain amount of solicitors , irish qualified etc in the dept ? 

Are all in house training roles really made open to internal employees only ? 

I currently work  in house but the solicitors are all English qualified.


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## Trafford

Yes, the same rules apply for the master with regards years PQ, and also the number of people in the dept. per irish lawyer capable of being a master. I don't think in-house apprenticeships exists per se, rather that if you work in-house already you may be lucky to have someone who will sign your indentures. As the work in-house is usually quite specific too you would have to be seconded out to a firm to get more varied experience, so the master would need to call in a favour for you in that regard.


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## hope4711

I interview for trainees in my firm.  I received 250 applications this year and we hadn't advertised a position.  We decided to take one trainee in our office which is a small relatively specialist practice in the city centre.  I weeded the applications down to about 15 - i threw out any with spelling mistakes (lack of attention to detail), or that were generally bad (you'd be surprised how many).  Priority was given to people who had some experience in a law firm (even as a general dogsbody) as it showed they would have some sense of how a firm worked and to those whose letter showed they had done some research into the firm.  I carried out a preliminary interview, sat in on the second interview and then the managing partner had to approve (a long process but we find it necessary).  At interview what we want are enthusiasm, a willingness to work hard, cop on, an ability to get on with people.  You want a trainee who you can leave alone with a client and they won't embarass you!!!

To be honest you expect good results and well groomed experience - you need to bring something else to the table.

I have no difficulty with email applications and in fact the majority of our applications are by email.  If you do get a goodbye letter you should consider reapplying 6 months later as circumstances can change.


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## Bazoo

...


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## Rachs

Hello,
Just wanted to add my experience on trying to get an apprenticeship, in case it may help someone. I got all the fe1's in June and the Irish exam and it was still difficult to find an apprentsihip.  I got out the Law Society Directory and I sent out exactly 250 CV’s, starting with the firms nearest to my house and working my way from there. I am also from down the country and sent CV’s to my home town as well and I was prepared to move down temporarily if I needed to. 
I had four interviews. One of them did not even get back to me, to tell me that I had been unsuccessful, one told me on the spot that I was "not suitable". That interview was a total waste of time and I don’t know why the solicitor bothered to interview me as it was obvious in the course of the interview that he had not even read my CV. The third interview that I got was by answering an advert in the Law Society Gazette and I was told that I was just piped to the post for it, at the time I was just grateful that they got back to me. I was finally successful at my fourth interview I had.
My advice is to keep trying. I am the last of my friends to get an apprenticeship, I had no contacts in the legal profession and I suppose I am proof that you don’t need contacts to get an apprenticeship, it just takes a bit longer. I was anxious to get an apprenticeship before the December FE1 results came out and another few hundred more with 8 FE1’s were on the market. 
I know that the Law Society keeping saying it, but if you can get any legal experience at all it really helps. I had loads of office experience but not in a law office so I got a job as a legal secretary to a sole practitioner. Every interview that I went to, they commented on the fact that I was working as a legal sec. One of them said that it shows that you are dedicated and want to gain experience, but also it shows that you were not sitting on your ass waiting for an apprenticeship and you are gaining some legal experience. 
The problem with trying to get legal experience is the fact that most of the interviewers see through you and know that you are looking for an apprenticeship and therefore wont be there for long. I was up front with the solicitor I was working for and he was good about it. But if you do get a job, who knows what contacts you could make.


----------



## bor

just got another pfo today after interview with cork firm a few weeks ago... again no connections in the trade and beginning to think that the whole legal community, in cork in particular, is one big "old boys club"...none of them seem to be taking on apprentices, seem to already have their quota...the sons and daughters of the merchant princes no doubt...getting very disillusioned with the whole thing...nobody said it would be easy, but this is a joke...anyone else trying to break the cork cartel !!!


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## Rachs

Hang in there.  I know that it is easy for me to say that, but you will get one.  I was the last of my friends to get an appr.  Some of them did not even have to do interviews, you just have to keep trying.  There will be more and more of us coming up the ranks soon with no family contacts so they will just have to like it, won't they?


----------



## Ana

i havent heard back from any of the 'top' firms in dublin yet. just wondering if anyone has heard from top 10 or so either with interview or pfo's???


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## lawstudentjq

i'm extremely worried about getting a legal apprenticeship especially after reading the last 4 pages of this thread.  if i'm 100% honest i didn't really apply myself during my law degree eventually scraping through with a 2:2  i did work a lot doing promotions and call secretarial work.  at the moment i'm studing for 4 fe1's.  is it at all possible to secure a legal apprentiship with a 2:2??  my plan was to get all 8 fe1's, i should be able to get some work experience in a law office during that time and i was going to attempt the new york bar before applying.  that means fingers crossed i'd be applying to blackhall anytime in from july 08 onwards.  do i realistically have a chance, i'd be very grateful for any advice anyone has.  ps i'm not actually bad at law per se, i occassionally got 1sts and usually 2:2's in my essays etc during college.


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## Oilean Beag

Getting an apprenticeship seems to depend on alot of things.... not just your academics. Any extracurrricular activities shoule be emphasised. I would express a note of caution about the new york bar. Do a search here for a thread on 'post grads for a budding solicitor' & you will see some very good advice I recieved when considering it earlier this year. I recently heard of a girl who is going back to sit it for the third time now & she was very capable in college & has y all means taken it seriously. 

Ana, I know Arthur Cox have issued invites to interview/pfo's and MOP will do so next week.


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## brenda24

Hi,
I'm looking for an apprenticeship at the moment. I had an interview yesterday in a firm in the IFSC which was a complete disaster, very unnerving. I have a group interview with Arthur Cox in two weeks time and was wondering if anybody has any interview tips or has ever been to a group interview? There will be 8-10 applicants in the interview. I am curious as to how many applicants they have selected since I estimated that the firm yesterday interviewed at least 50 for two positions. I checked the McCann Fitzgerald website and see that they were due to send letters to all applicants today. I would absolutely love to train with them.

I am a Psychology graduate and finished the FE1s in October-awaiting results. I have no contacts in the legal field and am very anxious at the level of competition for traineeships. I am working as a legal sec at the moment which is the one point that seemed to impress the interviewers yesterday. Anything else I said met with stony silence, particularly when I said I was interested in litigation!

Thanks,
Brenda


----------



## brenda24

Ana said:


> i havent heard back from any of the 'top' firms in dublin yet. just wondering if anyone has heard from top 10 or so either with interview or pfo's???


 
Hi Ana,

I heard back from Arthur Cox but not from any of the others. McCann Fitzgerald sent out their letters to all applicants today. Such a waiting game!

Best of luck
Brenda


----------



## Ana

thanks,I hadn't applied to cox, but was concerned about the others. MOP's the end of this week not sure about the rest but hopefully they'll let everyone know soon and end the waiting game
just checked mop site --> apparently they're recruiting primarily for 2008 and 2009!!!


----------



## brenda24

Ana said:


> thanks,I hadn't applied to cox, but was concerned about the others. MOP's the end of this week not sure about the rest but hopefully they'll let everyone know soon and end the waiting game
> just checked mop site --> apparently they're recruiting primarily for 2008 and 2009!!!


 
I didn't apply to MOP because I want to start next Sept, didn't realise Arthur Cox was recruiting for 2008 as well though, takes so long, urgh! I'm going to ring Arthur Cox and ask them how many people they actually invited to group interview because they are interviewing for two weeks solid!


----------



## EI321

Im thinking of changing to a law degree to become a solicitor. So I take it that only the large firms will pay for your blackhall fees? What about trainee salarys, what are they like?


----------



## MOB

The minimum rates of pay for trainee solicitors are set out on the Law Society website.  Few rural firms will pay more than the minimum.  The wages are not terribly bad - though it would be hard to live on them;  

From the employer's perspective, there is a poor enough economic return on a trainee and it would not be the case that you could regard them as a cheap labour supply.  They cost about the same as a secretary, and are usually less productive.  

If solicitors did not have to pay a minimum wage, it would be easier to secure a training contract, though of course there would be more exploitation and it would discriminate in favour of those who can afford to be without a modest wage. 

An increase in trainee wages would make it harder again to secure training contracts.  

I think the Law Society have the balance about right.


----------



## EI321

And I quess that only large firms will pay the societys fees? I would not have much of a problem working outside city during the trainee period if it was the only realistic employment option. BTW what is it like to study law in college, in terms of study hours required per week?


----------



## mallow

I'm not sure you're right about trainees not being cheap labour MOB.  After PPC2 the pay is €380 per week net.  Only the most inexperienced secretaries would be on that I would think.  From my own experience and that of other trainees I know, we are paid about €10 an hour and charged out at about €200.  There's some serious profit there if you have a decent trainee!

EI321, yes only the top 10 or so firms will pay your fees, though some smaller ones will make a contribution.  Most apprenticeships are in Dublin.  Study hours in law would depend entirely on your level of motivation!


----------



## MOB

"From my own experience and that of other trainees I know, we are paid about €10 an hour and charged out at about €200."

I don't have much familiarity with billing practices in large Dublin firms, but €200\hour for a trainee sounds outlandish.  I rarely charge that myself.  I would have thought that anything more than €70\hr would be very hard to defend until a trainee had at least a year under his\her belt.

To get the true cost of a trainee, you need to take the total cost over the training period and then look at the number of weeks they actually spend in the office.  By this measure, a trainee is equivalent to pay of circa €26k per annum for the hours actually worked.  A secretary in a rural firm could be on as little as €20k (though €26-30k is more normal) and a good secretary is undoubtedly more productive than a raw trainee.

Without a doubt,  a good trainee can more than pay his\her way; but in a rural setting they are certainly not cheap labour .


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## Trafford

I've spent all morning writing my begging letters. 43 down and god knows how many to go. My boss is dragging his heels about whether he will be my master or not so I need to keep my options open.


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## dats_right

Good luck folks!


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## Oilean Beag

Here they are on the Law Soc website.....

[broken link removed]

Could not find out anything about firm on a quick google search.


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## Spec

You could always become a legal secretary in an attempt to build up contacts.


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## EI321

OK serious decision time. Im currently in thrid yr of an architecture degree. Have wondered since day one if it has been right for me as I have always been interested (and had the LC pts for) in law with the eventual aim at becoming a solicitor. Im considering changing to a law degree next yr and am trying to weigh up my options. How easy is it to get an apprenticeship first time???? Any advise appreciated.


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## dats_right

cv[broken link removed]


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## buffalo

dats_right, interesting to hear you mention that a law degree is not necessary to become a solicitor. What would be your opinion on a science degree holder going into this profession?

I was looking at pursuing a career in patent law. What seems to be the norm is for scientists to train at a speciality IP firm. After three years of this you can sit the European Patent Offices’ exams and become registered as a European Patent Attorney.

Looking at the profiles of the partners involved with IP at the larger Dublin general law firms, I have not seen many with a science background. Do you think that general law firms would look favourably on a science degree holder with FE–1’s or should I just concentrate on the IP firms?


----------



## Oilean Beag

Absolutely excellent advice from Dats-Right.............

Qualification as an architect leaves the option of either career. The law is not for everyone, and IMO architecture is very secure safety net should you change your mind & also could give you an edge in terms of experience over other candidates for an apprenticeship. 

Once you have your FE 1's securing an apprenticeship 'first time' is no mean feat & I think if the law is really what you want you will try again & again until you get something.  In the meantime you could be gaining more relevant experience by working in a solicitors ( & saving some of those wages for the inevitable downturn your salary will take as an apprentice !)

Wishing you the best in whatever you decide. Your position is at the moment a strong one


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## dats_right

.


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## NiallP

Working in one of the biggest firms in the country, I can assure you that any legal firm with a proper IP division would be falling over themselves to hire someone with a science/engineering background. My advice would be to take a look at the Patents Office website and then take a look at the Register of Patent Agents and the Register of Trademark Agents. Take a note of the firms they work for and then contact them directly for advice. 

Please note that you do NOT need to be a solicitor to be a patent agent. As such, the FE1's may be a waste of time if that's the road you want to go down. In the same time period it takes to qualify as a solicitor, you can become a registered patent agent. With this qualification, you will walk into any top law firm (or go inhouse).

The reason that none of the partners etc in the big law firms have science backgrounds is due to the fact that until the last few years, the overwhelming majority of these people would have come with a law background. This is due to the fact that otherwise they would have been required to do the FE-1s. The end of FE1 exemptions has led to a much more disparate set of backgrounds to those entering the profession. 

IMHO a top-tier firm will look more favourably on somebody with a solid background in a specialist discipline (e.g. science, engineering, finance) than someone with a regular law degree. This is especially the case if you apply with your FE1s in the bag, so that they are not concerned whether you can transfer your skills to the law.


----------



## lawstudentjq

do you would it look good on my appliction form to have temped for year as a legal secretary or paralegal??  I'm really trying to look for anything extra to put on that form to stand out above the rest.


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## Trafford

Well I have 5 years experience working in law, as well as a postgrad in business and law, and a primary degree. I never even got so much as an acknowledgement from any of the "big 5" when I applied for traineeships with them a couple of years ago. I don't know what they're looking for really.


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## Ana

you'll be hard pressed to be taken on as a paralegal. no firm will want to touch you if you've sat/are sitting fe1's. it used the back door in, but not anymore. try and get into summer progs in the top 10 or so, also most of the bigger firms like you to have a masters.


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## brenda24

lawstudentjq said:


> do you would it look good on my appliction form to have temped for year as a legal secretary or paralegal?? I'm really trying to look for anything extra to put on that form to stand out above the rest.


 
Hi

I think that any legal experience is thought highly of when applying for traineeships. I had an awful interview experience recently but the interviewers were clearly taken with the fact that I work as a legal secretary.

Best of luck

Brenda


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## lawstudentjq

thanks for the advice given,  I'm currently studying for the fe1's.  is there any other job that would look good on the application form.  i just don't have the time or money to go back and do a masters really.


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## buffalo

Dats_right, NiallP, thanks for the informative posts. 



NiallP said:


> Please note that you do NOT need to be a solicitor to be a patent agent. As such, the FE1's may be a waste of time if that's the road you want to go down. In the same time period it takes to qualify as a solicitor, you can become a registered patent agent. With this qualification, you will walk into any top law firm (or go inhouse).



As I understand it, patent agents are allowed to practise and argue cases in their national patent offices and the EPO if they’ve passed the relevant exams. Some jurisdictions (e.g. England) allow them to practise in front of the High Court, but only for patent related matters.

Is this the case in Ireland?

If so then it probably doesn’t matter whether one trains as a patent agent or a solicitor. However, if this is not the case I was thinking it might be better to train as a solicitor and specialise in patent law later. I’d imagine there would be more flexibility career‑wise down the road.


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## EI321

Could somebody tell me what are considered to be the best law degrees/colleges from a trainee application point of view? Is trinity worth the extra year????


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## djhoose

I got called for 2 intervies in Jan with MOPs and Frys, the interviews are on the same day but there is also a pre interview reception for both the night before at exactly the same time, i obviously cant attned both but feel it will reflect badly on me in regard to whichever presentation I dont turn up to, anyone in the same boat or have any advice??


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## Bazoo

There'll be hundreds of people at these and in the greater scheme of things it won't matter that you didn't go. If they want you enough, they'll take you regardless. You could cover yourself if you know someone that is going to one, you could go to the other, get the names of people who talk at the pre-interview and drop the name(s) at your interview if you wish without actually saying that you were AT the pre-interview which you didn't attend (if that makes sense). Frys will (probably) ask you if you've done interviews/planning to do interviews anywhere else.  I don't know about MOP.


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## Ana

While I'd advise to rigorously prepare for both, put more effort towards fry's/ i know people in both places and fry's seem like the better option


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## sabina

Hi djhoose, also have interviews for Frys and Mops but pre-interview receptions are on 3rd and 4th January respectively, perhaps was a typo?
EI123 would recommend Law & Accounting in Limerick; it's a double qualification and seems to be well respected within the legal sphere.  Course also offers you a seven month placement in yr 3 within a legal firm (subject to interview of course!!).


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## NiallP

Ana said:


> While I'd advise to rigorously prepare for both, put more effort towards fry's/ i know people in both places and fry's seem like the better option


 
this would be the same company that is universally known as "frytanic"? General consensus would be that MOP are more highly regarded


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## fe1fever

for sabina and djhoose, and indeed any others in top5 companies

i am sinking under the weight of pfo's at the minute.

how did you manage to secure interviews.

do you have 2.1's/1's law degrees?

all 8 exams?

varied legal work experience?

or a combination of all above??

also on the legal experience front to all trainees/solicitors present, would working as a legal secretary help or hinder me?
ive been advised not to go down that road as it might reflect badly

is this true? would legal exec be more conducive?


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## Ana

NiallP said:


> this would be the same company that is universally known as "frytanic"? General consensus would be that MOP are more highly regarded


 
I just meant I know people in both places. Fry's seem to treat their trainees better.


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## Bazoo

fe1fever said:


> also on the legal experience front to all trainees/solicitors present, would working as a legal secretary help or hinder me?
> ive been advised not to go down that road as it might reflect badly
> 
> is this true? would legal exec be more conducive?


 
It's highly unlikely you'll be taken on as a legal exec unless you've already got pretty substantial experience so you'll need to start out as a clerk or legal secretary anyway. I don't see how working as a legal secretary can 'hinder' you? Any experience in a legal environment will stand to you.

It also baffles me as to why there is such a fixation with getting into the big commercial law firms. If it's from a financial point of view I could possibly understand it but work and experience wise you'd probably be better off in a small to medium firm.


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## NiallP

Bazoo said:


> It also baffles me as to why there is such a fixation with getting into the big commercial law firms. If it's from a financial point of view I could possibly understand it but work and experience wise you'd probably be better off in a small to medium firm.


 
In terms of quality of work, a small to medium firm probably offers more responsibility earlier. On the other hand, the work itself may not be of the best quality.

A large commercial firm is preferable for a number of reasons:

1: Retention rate - once you're in you're grand in terms of being kept on given the expansion rate of the top 5 at the moment. Whether its in your preferred area is another question, although one that should be put to bed by the quality of your work in that area.
2: Many small/medium size firms take on much too many trainees - breeding a dog-eat-dog culture. Beware of a medium size firm that takes on more than 10 trainees - chances are at least 5 of them will be left high and dry come qualification.
3: Many small to medium firms (especially small) are rife with nepotism. If you are a trainee alongside the bosses god-daughter and there is one job available...get packing. You don't have a chance. You only need to take a look at the Law Directory to confirm this fact. Say what you like about the big (impersonal) commercial firms, but they do operate on a meritocratic basis.
4: Even if you don;t get your preferred area, the status of having trained in a Top 5 firm will assure you a good job elsewhere. This is a fact in the same way that most top firms prefer to look at graduates of the top universities before they look at DITs. This unfortunately is true.
5: Money - obviously a benefit. Some of the mid-size firms actually offer more money than Top 5 firms. However the caveat is that these firms are usually of the type mentioned in Point 2 (above).

In terms of what you need to get in the door of the Top 5, I would think that the general rule of thumb is:
1: If you have a first in any degree you'll get an interview (regardless of FE1s)
2: If you have a 2:1 in law (or business and law etc) in one of the top universities (e.g UCD, TCD; UCC; UL; UCG) you'll get an interview regardless of Fe1s
3: A 2:1 in a non-law degree, or a 2:1 in law from a DIT etc. will require to have at least 4 FE1s in order to secure an interview. Decent work experience and a rounded cv will always help. 
4: A masters in law from one of the top universities will get you an interview without FE-1s
5:Anything outside the above is pretty unlikely to get you far.

Hope this helps


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## sabina

Hi Fe1Fever, this is my second year applying so don't know how qualified I am to give advice! However, I do have a 2.1 degree, legal experience in a medium sized law firm and have passed all eight FE1's. Last year, I was called for interview with MOP but didn't reach 2nd interview stage (v nervous), this year I've been called for all three top firms I've applied to. I don't know for certain what may be the difference between this year and last, but I am guessing that it may be connected to the fact that I have completed all FE1's and was promoted in work (major Irish bank). I was also as meticulous as I could be with the application forms and highlighted the legal element of all work experience to date. From myself, and friends in the legal profession, I would definately say that the main element required is perserverence...possibly not what any of us want to hear when seeking an apprenticeship....if not successful this year, am hoping third time lucky!!!


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## fe1fever

That's great thanks so much,

I have a 2:1 comm - NUI, also legal diploma. I had 3 FE1's at time of applying. Currently have 6.

So by next year I'll have 6-8, and hopefully some work experience which should make a BIG difference.

on the subject of work exp - would large financial institution be better than some tiny solicitors firm?


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## Oilean Beag

FE1Fever

I have been , as most here have, trying to get an apprenticeship for some time now. There does not appear to be a magic formula. 



The advice on this board is very useful, but unfortunately there is no straight answer to your question.


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## NiallP

Without a doubt go for the financial institution. You only need to look at the legal vacancies pages on any of the recruitment web-sites. All the top firms are crying out for funds and banking lawyers. Any exposure to, or knowledge of, those areas will be of much more benefit than experience in a very small practice.

On the other hand, my work experience was in a restaurant so i don;t speak from personal experience. Any job you do has skills that can be transferred to a big commercial firm - e.g communication, team work etc. Except perhaps, ironically enough, working in a small legal firm. It may be harsh, but the big firms are not going to be bowled over by the fact that you answered phones/photocoied/dictated in a small practice.

The most critical point of getting a job is impressing at interview. I'd recommend getting some professional training. I'd recommend Carr Communications. An interview is similar to your driving test in that you can;t just turn and hope to wing it without preparation. Anybody who turns up thinking they can wow the interview panel with their personality is at a major disadvantage to those who prepare properly.


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## sabina

To be quite honest, I doubt it.  I was also at a presentation for Beauchamps Solicitors for interviewees and every single person I spoke with had legal experience.  The reason why I chose a bank in the interim was due to the fact that I was sitting the FE1's at the time and required regular 9-5 hours and weekends free for study.  Also, I'm not sure of the sustainability of the wages firms provide to those effectively seeking work experience....however, if I could have afforded it at the time, my preference would have definately been for legal experience.
Best wishes in your search!  Am told everyone gets an apprenticeship eventually so am sticking with that mantra!!


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## NiallP

BTW should have mentioned - if you have applied to a firm before and didn;t get an interview, NEVER mention it if you reapply the next year. There are literally thousands of applications each year, and i can assure you that they are not all kept on file.

You're much better off starting from scratch. Look at it like Pop Idol - there's always people who have failed from the year before who try to give it another shot....usually with no success. If you brand yourself as having been rejected there before, you are setting yourself up to be rejected again.

This question is often asked on application forms. Why? To weed out serial applicants. If the question comes up on interview, answer it truthfully and focus on all you have acheived since first applying.


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## sabina

Not true Niall, I specified that I had applied before and was still called for interview, am of the opinion that again, shows perserverence.
In all truth, none of us can give a hard and fast rule in regards to applications/interview, each application requires an individual and I don't think you exhibit your individuality by trying to be someone you think you ought to be for the sake of selection.


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## NiallP

Fair enough Sabina. I'm just talking from my own experience as a trainee in one of the big 5. I can't think of any of my contemporaries that had prior legal experience (bar work experience in this actual office as a summer intern). Older applicants (i.e. 25+) invariably came from working in finance - e.g funds, banking.


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## fe1fever

Thanks for all the advice.

niallp you should start giving seminars on this subject!

and yes i know those who've said you'll get an apprenticeship, i'm sure I will - in fact I've been offered one but I'm being picky for a number of reasons; location, area of work, retention etc. I know a lot of people give out about wanting to be in one of the big5 but thats where my interests lie, plus the thought of mainly doing wills and conveyancing in some one man shop is not appealing.


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## dats_right

A well known family of settled travellers famously lived on that road and named an album after it!

[broken link removed]
​!​


----------



## djhoose

sabina said:


> Hi djhoose, also have interviews for Frys and Mops but pre-interview receptions are on 3rd and 4th January respectively, perhaps was a typo?
> EI123 would recommend Law & Accounting in Limerick; it's a double qualification and seems to be well respected within the legal sphere. Course also offers you a seven month placement in yr 3 within a legal firm (subject to interview of course!!).


 

Are you sure Sabina, I have rechecked my letters and they both clearly state that their pre-interview receptions are on at 6pm 4th of Jan... I am going to ring fry's to confirm if that is the case tomorrow anyway...


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## Bazoo

In response to FE1Fever -the 'tiny solicitor's firm' is far likely to offer you exposure to relevant work.


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## Bazoo

fe1fever said:


> Thanks for all the advice.
> 
> niallp you should start giving seminars on this subject!
> 
> and yes i know those who've said you'll get an apprenticeship, i'm sure I will - in fact I've been offered one but I'm being picky for a number of reasons; location, area of work, retention etc. I know a lot of people give out about wanting to be in one of the big5 but thats where my interests lie, *plus the thought of mainly doing wills and conveyancing in some one man shop is not appealing*.


 
I have to laugh when I see comments like this from people who obviously haven't a clue what they're talking about!


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## fe1fever

meaning? 
I was offered an apprenticeship in a very small firm somewhere 'in the country'. I have a comm degree and am interested in the financial/tax side of law - i'd get absolutely no experience of that side of things in this place, also rentention chances would be low, and it would be very difficult to try and get into tax/banking law coming from that background after I'd qualified.
i don't necessarily want to be in the top 5 but certianly a medium-large commercial firm if that doesnt happen; then certainly I would take what was offered, but out of choice I'd prefer to work in a relevant area.

so what exactly is your problem with my comment???


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## sabina

Hi djhoose, could you confirm on forum when you confirm pre-interview receptions? (sry, can't call in office here!!) My letters had 3rd and 4th and am presuming that they wouldn't have same date for two of the top 5? Also confirmed dates when sending e-mail confirmation of attendance.  Thks, and...good luck!


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## djhoose

sabina said:


> Hi djhoose, could you confirm on forum when you confirm pre-interview receptions? (sry, can't call in office here!!) My letters had 3rd and 4th and am presuming that they wouldn't have same date for two of the top 5? Also confirmed dates when sending e-mail confirmation of attendance. Thks, and...good luck!


 

Hi sabina, i rang fry's the are actually having a separate pre-interview reception before each day of interviews so if your interview is on the 4th your reception is on the 3rd, my interview on the 5th but i asked if i can attend the reception on the 3rd instead of the 4th which was no problem, so i might meet you there.. good luck


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## sabina

Great, thks!!


----------



## Megan

fe1fever said:


> meaning?
> I was offered an apprenticeship in a very small firm somewhere 'in the country'. I have a comm degree and am interested in the financial/tax side of law - i'd get absolutely no experience of that side of things in this place, also rentention chances would be low, and it would be very difficult to try and get into tax/banking law coming from that background after I'd qualified.
> i don't necessarily want to be in the top 5 but certianly a medium-large commercial firm if that doesnt happen; then certainly I would take what was offered, but out of choice I'd prefer to work in a relevant area.
> 
> so what exactly is your problem with my comment???


 
Did you not know when you applied to the firm that they were a 'small firm somewhere in the country' and if so why did you apply to them or am I missing something here?


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## fe1fever

I applied a couple of months ago as a back up plan.


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## L_earner

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*



mallow said:


> ... people do hate solicitors, we tend to tell taxi drivers we work in the bank to avoid speeches ...


AAARGH. Here I am ploughing through 1200 pages of McMahon and Binchy's "Law of Torts". What is it all for . . . .


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## EI321

BTW 
Am I correct to assume that a holder of a heavily law focused degree such as a BCL or LLB etc will have an easier time dealing with the FE1's (and possibly find it easier to secure a training contract?) than somebody with a non-legal degree?? Looks like I 'll be starting in UCD this Sept. And help & advise (or regrets?) greatly appreciated!


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## gemineye

Hi,

I dont mean to dishearten you but i would advise you to think twice before choosing a law degree. when you come out of college your options are actually more limited then you think (for instance if you have a BCL you cant do a H dip as it is not a degree recognised by the the dept of education). Most people choose the solicitor/barrister route and they are not easy. I am currently a trainee solicitor and would have to say that finding an apprenticeship in the current climate is nearly imposseible plus we all have to worry that with so many people going into law- will there be enough jobs?

But if your'e determined to go into law then a law degree is a great help for the FE1's. On the other hand it seems all the bigger firms are interested in people from more diverse backgrounds...


----------



## NiallP

Couldn;t agree more Geminiii. Anybody going to college should do what they are interested in, rather than what they think they _should_ do for a career that they may find they have no interest in down the road.

Chances are, if you do something that you are interested in as your degree, you will do better, get a better degree and find that more doors are open to you on the basis of that better degree.

As i've mentioned in former posts on this thread, I feel that having a legal background is not as important as it once was in relation to becoming a solicitor - given that the major demand areas in the big commercial firms are presently in banking and finance. Having a knowledge of these areas though a business degree etc. will benefit you in the long run - when you are doing the FE-1s like everyone else.


----------



## Pretty Penny

Hi Guys,
I'm new but have been reading intently over the last few weeks! Thanks for the advice. 
I have a question. Does any one know if frys job offers have been made already...I think i already know the answer but don't want to admit it!
Thought it would be plain sailing once the FE1s were over but now it seems like ill need to go to finishing school to get through the interviews!


----------



## Romka

Hi, Does anyone know of any foreign that passed FE1 and got an apprenticeship? I am ukrainia and currently studing for FE1


----------



## Pretty Penny

Hi Romka,

I don't know of anyone personally.  But i have met a couple of people who have either passed themselves or their significant others have.  I met an American girl at the first Irish exam who had learned the language specially.
I think as long as you're dedicated and have a good standard of english you will succeed.  
The problem may be convincing firms that you are in Ireland for the long haul though.  But I'm Irish and still having problems getting work so maybe it wont be that much of a drawback!


----------



## Romka

Thanks for u advice pretty penny


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## RMG

Hi Pretty Penny,

I honestly have no idea about Fry's but I'm afraid I can identify with you as Im waiting to hear back from Beauchamps, don't suppose anyone has any updates on their offers?
I think the postman thinks Im stalking him


----------



## sabina

hey, fry's have issued their offers but beauchamps said that it would most likely be towards the end of this week


----------



## RMG

Cheers Sabina!


----------



## Ana

Beauchamps issued offers at the start of this week.


----------



## RMG

really??

well I think I can add that to my list of pfo's so


----------



## sabina

me too, but if it makes u feel better this is my second yr applying and have finally gotten one so it does happen! (eventually...!)


----------



## Ana

sabina,
what do you think the big difference has been in your applications since lat year? you said got a lot more interviews this time?

getting snowed under by pfo's at present


----------



## RMG

I applied to one or two last year as well and didn't get anywhere, mind you I didn't have all the fe-1s. Im now working as a legal exec for a firm and got called for a few interviews but still having trouble actually getting the offer, this is such a nightmare!!


----------



## sabina

Apart from what I said before, banking experience was a huge focus with the bigger firms in interview (one of whom i'll be working for ).  Other than that, I was more relaxed at interview this year...don't give up, I've seen it with friends and I see it with myself, it just takes longer than most careers....


----------



## Pretty Penny

Hi RMG,

'Fraid Beauchamps is out already. If you're working as a legal Exec firms jump at you (or more accurately at my mates who are Legal Execs!) because its great legal experience...which i totally lack!
But don't give up - Honestly, I was having a crappy week and feeling like jacking the whole lot in.
But the i got a job I wasn't expecting....for 2008! Has anyone any tips on how to make it 2007?  I know some people manage to swing it...but I seem to be useless!  Don't get me wrong, I'm unbelieveably thrilled....its just 07 would be the icing on the proverbial cake!


----------



## Oilean Beag

Has anyone here applied to Eugene F Collins ?


----------



## Ana

nope SNB sorry.

on a similar note

has anyone received feedback either way from McEvoys/Philip Lee/Maples and Calder?


----------



## Oilean Beag

McEvoy are only looking for trainee's for 2008 & they will be reviewing applications in  Sep 2007. 

Maple & Calder are not hiring as far as I know. I stand to be corrected on that though.......

No idea on Phillip Lee.


----------



## Lou

Hi all,

I'm not sure if I'm posting under the right thread but I am looking for some advise on apprenticeship interviews.   Before Christmas I worked part time in a regional four solicitor firm beforefor about 2 months while they were busy and while there I received the results of my last FE-1s.  I have an interview with them this week and  I am worried because I honestly have not a clue what they are looking for or what they are going to ask me.  I think my problem is that they know me already so I feel ridiculous even dressing up for the interview.  I know they like me and that they were satisfied with my work but it is a very formal and professional firm so the interview is unlikely to be casual.  I know they have received many applications but as far as I now they are only interviewing five people. This is my first interview si I am getting  alittle stressed!  Any advise/tips on what to expect ot how to prepare.   Any help would be brilliant.  Thanks!


----------



## tamatoes

Would anybody be able to tell me the exact figure on paying for your fees urself. Also is it possible for any employer to make this a tax deduction, is there any websites with any more info on this side of it? would appreciate help ,have been offered an apprenticeship but they are reluctant to pay for it!


----------



## sheena1

Did you get a copy of the Law Society handbook for trainees? it can be downloaded from the website. It has all the info you need. If you commence working for your master prior to PPC1 then the master either continues to pay you during the PPC1 or pays your course fees. The course fees are deductable at 20% as far as I know. You may be eligible for a grant?


----------



## Trafford

I have an interview, at long last!


----------



## brenda24

Trafford said:


> I have an interview, at long last!


 
That's great Trafford, hope it goes well for you!


----------



## Oilean Beag

Just got the offer I have been waiting nearly 3 years for, im so delighted. For those of you still waiting my advice is that if this is what you really want it , hold out for it & don't loose faith in yourself & your ability to get on 

1. A good education , meaning good results & postgraduate studies , will go in your favour. This can be from any discipline , not just law. As mentioned above banking & finance are big areas for the top firms. 

2. Practical experience in a legal environment whether it be private practice or in-house can really build your application & give you something different to talk about & therefore make you stand out at interviews. 

3. Sell yourself and all the things that you do & enjoy. All extracurricular activities, particularly in college are looked favourably upon. These show that you are a rounded individual, capable in social situations & a good team player. Also shows strength of character . 

4. If you get that interview, prepare, prepare,prepare. I was given a recommendation on this board for Carr Communications on Northumberland Road for mock interviews/ prep course. I found them excellent & I do think that they contributed to the offer I did get. 

It can be a long haul for some, ( like me) but its worth it in the end. The feeling I have now is unreal and  the good advice I got on this board helped me get here.


----------



## Bazoo

Fair play to you SNB.


----------



## brenda24

Congrats SNB! I got a PFO from a firm I had two interviews with along with many other PFOs so am considering doing a Masters in Law. Cheers for the encouragement!


----------



## Pretty Penny

brenda24 said:


> Congrats SNB! I got a PFO from a firm I had two interviews with along with many other PFOs so am considering doing a Masters in Law. Cheers for the encouragement!


 
Hi Brenda24,
Just a quick Q..have you done all FE1s yet?  If so, choose your Masters wisely as you may be highly bored if you choose the wrong one.  I did FE1s alongside Masters and it was horrible, but looking back, I think I would have been bored silly if all i was doing was masters work.  On the other hand, I think it did help me get a job.


----------



## brenda24

Hi Pretty Penny

I have all the FE1s. I got a reply back from the course director of the LLM postgrad in Trinity and he told me that I have no chance of being accepted without a law degree. My degree is in Psychology. Really don't know what to do at this stage. I was considering a Masters in Criminology (which would tie in with my Psychology degree) but don't want to limit myself to Criminal Law either. I am currently looking for another job. I am working as a legal secretary at the moment but all this entails is audio typing which is very tedious. I need to get work experience that will enhance my CV.

Any advice on a good Masters to do?


----------



## Harlequin

Hi Brenda,

I did a taught Masters in Criminology (though not in Ireland) and it doesn't really have very much to do with criminal *law *at all. It was really much more sociology based. So it wouldn't necessarily tie you down to criminal law all that much. I don't know whether it would be of help to you in future though - I felt it was more useful if you intended to go into e.g. government research into crime or stick with academia.


----------



## Charlie_M

Just spent the last 2 hours reading in agony the last 8 pages. I feel really confused now. I am currently in my lat year of an LLB in Griffith College Dublin. I have just finished the first half of my finals and presently my results give me a 1.1. I know that I am capable enough of getting similar results in my May exams to give me the 1.1 degree. 

I have heared mixed reports about the snobbery shown towards those who come from private colleges and I felt that in order ot avoid this I should take a masters. As things turn out, I am really interested in the Commercial Law masters on offer in UCD. The syllabus contains subjects I really enjoyed doing during my degree and are generally the ones I have performed best in. Therefore, I thought that it wouldn't be such a bad thing doing a masters to spruce up my Griffith degree, as I actually like the look of the programme.

However, I would need to take out a loan to do my masters. I thought though that this might not be a huge problem as by doing a masters in Commercial Law, along with a 1.1 degree, I would stand a good chance  of getting a traineeship in a one of the bigger commercial firms who discharge your Blackhall fees. This is really the crux of my problems. Having to pay Balckhal fees on top of my masters would set me back a few years.

After reading everybody's posts though I now feel quite unsure about this. My questions are then, firstly, does my plan seem risky and naive, and secondly, would I stand a good chance of getting an interview(s) with the big firms if I have a 1.1 Griffith degree and a Masters in Commercial Law from UCD?(assuming that I have minimal experience working in a law firm, btw I am only 20) 

Sorry for the ramble, and thanks in advance for any advice given.


----------



## gcg

I have been trying since before Christmas to get an Apprenticeship in the West. I have my FE-1 s done and did my Irish in January. All I have got so far is the " keep you on file " scenario, its heartbreaking stuff but you have to keep on trooping I know...I have basic Computer skills and all the previous work experience I have ,that got me through College, is in the Retail and Construction areas..is everyone finding it as difficult as me? Does anyone have any tips?...it would be much apprerciated.


----------



## Trafford

gcg said:


> I have been trying since before Christmas to get an Apprenticeship in the West. I have my FE-1 s done and did my Irish in January. All I have got so far is the " keep you on file " scenario, its heartbreaking stuff but you have to keep on trooping I know...I have basic Computer skills and all the previous work experience I have ,that got me through College, is in the Retail and Construction areas..is everyone finding it as difficult as me? Does anyone have any tips?...it would be much apprerciated.


 
It is soul destroying. I thought I had found the holy grail at last, but then the position fell through, so I'm back to the drawing board now. I am in a good legal job at the moment though which takes the pressure off, but at this stage after all the exams etc. I just want to get on with it. Where in the West are you looking? I might be able to give you a contact.


----------



## gcg

Im in Galway Trafford, we thought we had the hard work over us with the FE-1s, there seems to be obstacles eveywhere though, Linford Christie would be doing well to get past them,


----------



## Trafford

gcg said:


> Im in Galway Trafford, we thought we had the hard work over us with the FE-1s, there seems to be obstacles eveywhere though, Linford Christie would be doing well to get past them,


 
 

I am from Roscommon, but living in the South East so my contact there isn't much use to me.


----------



## gcg

Any contacts are much appreciated Trafford, How is the Legal work going for you, were you given much slack at the start or thrown straight in the deep end


----------



## Thrifty1

Can i ask have many of you worked full time, or has most of it been study and part time work?

I did BBLS in UCD, worked in finance now for 4 years, sat 4 FE-1s last April and passed 2 got sort if disheartened, but have realised through talking to others that they are difficult enough to pass (im studying at home with text books) and im thinking about sitting them again in Oct.

Im lucky enough to have make a lot of contacts in my years in finance which should help me when it comes to securing an apprenticeship.

Anybody else have this long a break b/w finishing college and doing the FE-1s?


----------



## gcg

hello Thrifty, my work so far has been part time and full time retail and construction work that got me through College, I have no real office experience however I have had important responsibilities all the same, I finished my fe-1s last April, I am trying since October 4 my Apprenticeship so there is a gap now emerging on my c.v. One thing I have learned though is that its more who ya know and not what you know that matters. Keep in touch with your contacts, best of luck with the study,


----------



## L_earner

gcg said:


> . . . One thing I have learned though is that its more who ya know and not what you know that matters . . .


Now, aint that the truth! And as far as I can see, it is family businesses that are specialists at getting the mediocre relative in before the bright newcomer. Having said that, I would be slow to work in a family law practice myself. If there was ever a difficulty in which you were even remotely involved, you could be an easy target to blame.
Back on topic, I think you need a lot of drive and some luck to get in the door of a practice. One guy I know kept literally walking into practices brandishing his CV. Eventually he got lucky. He was in the right place at the right time when a small firm were dithering about taking on an apprentice.


----------



## Thrifty1

Thanks for the reply, i was naive a few years ago thought my Mam was cycnical when she said its not what you know its who you know, now i see she is right its all about contacts.

Ill keep them up and hopefully will be in a position to use them in a couple of years.

GCG did you study "on your own" or do the Griffith course?


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## L_earner

SNB said:


> . . .
> 3. Sell yourself and all the things that you do & enjoy. All extracurricular activities, particularly in college are looked favourably upon. These show that you are a rounded individual, capable in social situations & a good team player. Also shows strength of character . . . . .


Smiling here at that post. Involvement in extra-curricular activity in college also usually means your liver has a black belt in alcohol survival!


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## Oilean Beag

Believe me , you can actually spin that in the interviews ! Use it to show you were involved in college life etc and would be well able to build contacts :L


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## gcg

Thrifty, I did it all onmy own, I had a lot of material though from my llb ansd got notes off my friends, the griffith packs on their own are sufficient enough I think


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## Thrifty1

Well done gcg! Can you buy the packs on their own?


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## gcg

ya thrifty contact griffith, you can get them on their own


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## Oilean Beag

Hi Thrifty, 

Griffith charge nearly the same fee just for the notes as they do to attend classes. Over € 300 per subject if I recall correctly . The classes really are very good and would be worth going to , if you are planning on shelling out that much for the notes and of course if you live near enough to be able to attend Griffith !


----------



## Trafford

SNB said:


> Hi Thrifty,
> 
> Griffith charge nearly the same fee just for the notes as they do to attend classes. Over € 300 per subject if I recall correctly . The classes really are very good and would be worth going to , if you are planning on shelling out that much for the notes and of course if you live near enough to be able to attend Griffith !


 
They do lectures in other parts of the country too. I did the distance learning course before which means no lectures but you can still submit homework. You are entitled then to go to lectures at the end of the course when "tips" may be give out.


----------



## gcg

Does anyone want to give me suggestions when approaching firms with cvs, I know to well that most of the time when you give cvs into them that they bin them straightaway, how can you get past them? these offices are like obstacle courses in themselves


----------



## yvo

hey, I just came accross this site by pure accident... but it seems like a godsend!!i have just spent forever trawling thru the past messages, consoling myself that I am not alone in this law hell like existence!! I graduated last year with law degree, and have just passed four of my FE1's so am delighted!! but laced with a feeling that my hopes of just getting an apprenticeship were far fetched.  I never have applied before and i know that the big firms do all their recruiting in oct time, but do the other firms accept cv's all year round? i know it is probably a fact of life that it will b more or less ignored, but nothin ventured, nothin gained! is it a good idea to just take out the directory and send cv to everywhere, or more to the point, is there a point? pls help and thanks soo much in advance!!!!


----------



## Trafford

yvo said:


> hey, I just came accross this site by pure accident... but it seems like a godsend!!i have just spent forever trawling thru the past messages, consoling myself that I am not alone in this law hell like existence!! I graduated last year with law degree, and have just passed four of my FE1's so am delighted!! but laced with a feeling that my hopes of just getting an apprenticeship were far fetched. I never have applied before and i know that the big firms do all their recruiting in oct time, but do the other firms accept cv's all year round? i know it is probably a fact of life that it will b more or less ignored, but nothin ventured, nothin gained! is it a good idea to just take out the directory and send cv to everywhere, or more to the point, is there a point? pls help and thanks soo much in advance!!!!


 
Hi There,

Well I took out the directory and wrote to over 100 firms 2 years running and got 3 interviews, 2 knock backs and 1 seriously dodgy offer which I turned down. I am now exploring other career options as despite surviving the hell of the FE1s I have now discovered the search for a traineeship is the real stumbling block. Best of luck - most people are luckier than me I guess and eventually end up with one but plenty of people also abandon the idea due to the difficulties.


----------



## yvo

hey,

Thanks trafford.. Yeah I'm only really beginning to realise how hard this could actually be and it's scaring me more than a little!! Do you think my best bet would be to wait til oct to send or send now? or really is there a difference?
gosh, so you have given up? GULP!!

yvo


----------



## yvo

btw, what is the directory???!! R how do you get it?


----------



## Trafford

yvo said:


> btw, what is the directory???!! R how do you get it?


 
The Law Directory is sent out to every solicitor/member of the Law Society and as I work in a legal department of a bank I have access to it. There is a new one every year so I'd say if you contact any solicitor and ask for last year's one they'll give it to you.


----------



## Vanilla

There's a listing of solicitors on the law society website anyway- not sure if it is as up to date though.

Sorry to hear you have given up Trafford. Maybe a bit of time out and regroup? I had no contacts myself in law when I was looking for an apprenticeship and at the time, in the early 90s, jobs were much more scarce. Eventually I did get one but it involved a good deal of compromise on money. At the time there wasn't a compulsory minimum wage and many of my fellow apprentices were on pittances, supplemented by weekend work and our parents. Maybe the minimum wage is scaring the smaller employers off because frankly most apprentices ( I'm thinking of myself) straight out of a degree/academia take a good deal of training before they are actually useful in an office. I had a great apprenticeship ( apart from the money issue) and a great master and yes, I had no money for three years, but I did qualify in what I wanted to do.


----------



## Trafford

Vanilla said:


> There's a listing of solicitors on the law society website anyway- not sure if it is as up to date though.
> 
> Sorry to hear you have given up Trafford. Maybe a bit of time out and regroup? I had no contacts myself in law when I was looking for an apprenticeship and at the time, in the early 90s, jobs were much more scarce. Eventually I did get one but it involved a good deal of compromise on money. At the time there wasn't a compulsory minimum wage and many of my fellow apprentices were on pittances, supplemented by weekend work and our parents. Maybe the minimum wage is scaring the smaller employers off because frankly most apprentices ( I'm thinking of myself) straight out of a degree/academia take a good deal of training before they are actually useful in an office. I had a great apprenticeship ( apart from the money issue) and a great master and yes, I had no money for three years, but I did qualify in what I wanted to do.


 
I think a lot of the problem now is also the huge increase in numbers doing the FE1 exams compared to a few years ago. 

I haven't necessarily given up but I am exploring my other options in case this doesn't work out. I have until 2010 to get sorted as you only have 5 years from whence you first pass an FE1 to get yourself into Blackhall.


----------



## Oilean Beag

I thought it was five years from the time you passed your last FE1 ?  On my letter from the Law Society I was sure my last entry date was five years from the year I passed the last. 

I don't have the letter to hand to check , but it might be worthwhile to have another look at yours. 

Have you registered with the trainee register in the Law Society ?


----------



## sheena1

Yes it is very very hard to secure an apprenticeship especially after all the studying for the FE-1's but do persevere. You have got this far so don't give up at the final hurdle. I sent out dozens of e-mails and letters and didn't even receive acknowledgements. I have since discovered that the solicitors don't always open the mail themselves and appplications get thrown straight in the bin with all the junk mail. They best thing is to visit offices in person. Some solicitors won't have time to speak with you but all you need is one who is willing to give you a chance. If you don't have time to go around to each office on your list then at least find out the name of the individual in the firm who has the hiring power and addres your your correspondence to them as they will be less likely to treat it as junk mail. IMO this is the best time to start looking as exisiting apprentices will be off to Blackhall in a few months and there will be upcoming vacancies in a lot of offices. You will find somewhere that is right for you. The hardest part is not giving up.


----------



## Trafford

SNB said:


> I thought it was five years from the time you passed your last FE1 ? On my letter from the Law Society I was sure my last entry date was five years from the year I passed the last.
> 
> I don't have the letter to hand to check , but it might be worthwhile to have another look at yours.
> 
> Have you registered with the trainee register in the Law Society ?


 
The way they phrased it on my letter (as I checked it again last week) was "5 years from when you first get exemptions". By this they mean from when you pass your initial 3 exams, which in my case was the April sitting 2005.


----------



## gcg

Has anyone heard anything about the ppc 1 in cork?


----------



## audioline

Apparently they are expanding the Cork PPC1 and there will only be one (probably bigger) Dublin PPC1 this term.


----------



## Rachs

Does anyone have any idea of the dates for the Dublin PPC 1 for this year?


----------



## miak

I rang the Law Society last week and they said that PPC1 would be starting mid Sept, didn't have an exact date though. There is only one course running this year and there is one in Cork!


----------



## Miga

Does anyone have any thoughts on starting the tax exams, or think this would help in securing an apprenticeship. A considerable amount of Solicitors seem to be doing them in recent years....Or would they really be of much use if you were going to end up working in a small to medium firm?

Also since they come in 3 parts would it just add to stress having to study for Parts 2 and 3 straight after qualifying as a Solicitor?

Have been trying to secure a training contract for 2 years to no avail (currently working as a Legal Secretary) and would prefer to do something practical like tax exams as opposed to a Masters.

Any suggestions??


----------



## CCOVICH

I'd say it is a good enough idea-but they are hard work.


----------



## Trafford

It does sound like a good idea to me. I have been turned down for apprenticeships despite having 5 years legal exec experience, because I don't have a specialised qualification in specific areas of law. It seems a bit harsh seeing as we're supposed to be trainees and expected to be blank canvasses ready to learn. That is what you're up against though, people who have further qualifications than the degree and the FE-1s.


----------



## Oilean Beag

The tax exams are something to consider , especially if you have exemptions from undergrad ie of you tax or accountancy subjects. 

Speaking to someone who had completed them, they seem tough.  Are you genuinely interested in tax and  tax planning as a career ? .  As a means to securing an apprenticeship . it could work but  be careful you are not pidgeon holed by it before you go in somewhere, and marked as the 'tax trainee'. Just something to consider before committing to lots of more hard work and big fees.


----------



## aokeefe

Hi, I have been seriously thinking about starting on the road to pursuing a legal apprentiship. I have a BSc and have been working with this in an office where I encounter a lot of legal issues which has led to my increased interest in law. Am I dreaming? Would I ever find an apprentiship with this kind of background?


----------



## sheena1

Hi aokeeffe,
Well firstly have you sat the FE-1 exams? IMO it would be nigh impossible to secure an apprenticeship if you do not have a background in law and have not passed the FE-1s. 
If you have already passed the FE-1's and are looking for an apprenticeship then its as much about being in the right place at the right time as it is about previous experience and qualifications.


----------



## Sherman

I know a couple of scientists who applied to the 'big five' in Dublin without having sat even one FE-1. Both were snapped up (depending on completion of the FE-1s obviously). 

If you have a science degree from a leading university, and have _at least a 2.1_ hons degree, you'll have as good a chance as anyone at landing a traineeship.


----------



## aokeefe

Hi that is great to hear. Haven't done FE1's yet but have looked into it. Just wanted some feedback before I started the long rd! Ideally would like to do prep course in Munster so was hopin to do the Nov - Feb in Cork. Any recommendations on which course is best?


----------



## asv

Hello I'm new to this site and was looking for some advice on gaining legal experience with a view to securing an apprenticeship. To begin, I'm a recent B.A. and LLB. grad of NUIG and achieved a 2H1 grade in both.I have spent the past year sitting the FE-1's exams and have a remaining two to pass. I am thus now attempting to embark on the difficult road of securing an apprenticeship. In terms of experience, I have done the usual summer internship in a mid size commercial firm and currently, work in an organisation that provides IR/HR advice i.e. an employment law arena albeit in an administrative capacity. I feel I am now stuck in the catch 22 scenario i.e. prosects of securing apprenticeship greatly increase if i have relevant work experience, but its nigh impossible to get that experience without experience. 
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## jevon

I'm not sure that getting just any kind of experience is of any use to you. I have passed 7 Fe 1's but failed one which I'm repeating September. I went to the Law Society Seminar and they said to get any kind of experience so I did. It was mostly basic filing and putting together briefs,with a bit of audio typing.I got 4 weeks out of it, but the principal solicitor hardly gave me the time of day. You'd want to watch also that you don't let your existing career go down the swanny, if its one outside law. Because it's so hard to get a legal apprenticeship,I'm looking at jobs in my own industry again(have a BE in Civil Engineering) but my motivation is probably being questioned because I did law exams and worked for a solicitor. Also, would you have to be pretty exceptional to get a legal apprenticeship coming from a non law background? I have an average enough degree, and nothing exceptional after that. I think I have more of an aptitude for law though and would do well in it,but am I tainted by not performing well in a career that I probably wasn't suited to?


----------



## sara:)

hi there. i am new to this thread too. i am in a similar position also. I have passed all fe-1s since last nov & have been looking for an apprenticeship since beginning of 2006 with no luck. I am on the verge of giving up & am definetely looking into my other options. I was wondering does anyone know what other options are open to me? I have a business degree as well as a law degree & currently work in the customer service area of a financial organisation. I was thinking about applying to the banks etc. as they may have more options than my current organisation. I'm situated in the west & don't want to move if poss.What do people do if they don't get apprenticeships or do you just keep trying?
I am at the stage where I just want a decent job.


----------



## Bazoo

sara:) said:


> hi there. i am new to this thread too. i am in a similar position also. I have passed all fe-1s since last nov & have been looking for an apprenticeship since beginning of 2006 with no luck. I am on the verge of giving up & am definetely looking into my other options. I was wondering does anyone know what other options are open to me? I have a business degree as well as a law degree & currently work in the customer service area of a financial organisation. I was thinking about applying to the banks etc. as they may have more options than my current organisation. I'm situated in the west & don't want to move if poss.What do people do if they don't get apprenticeships or do you just keep trying?
> * I am at the stage where I just want a decent job*.


----------



## Trafford

Bazoo said:


> An apprenticeship is about as far from a decent job as you can get. You are truly at the bottom of the food chain and reminded of it on a daily basis, in particular by those who have no concept of what it means to be educated (my unfortunate experience in an office where the receptionists and some secretaries had ridiculous notions about themselves). The money is awful, you're treated like dirt, a lot (not all) of the work is monotonous and sometimes soul-destroying. I'm not sure I'd go through it again given the option. It's baffling why so many people want to become solicitors.


 
Nothing like instilling a bit of confidence in the world weary on this thread!!

Sara, I am like you and have pretty much given up now, and it was the best thing I could have done. I have wanted a career in law since I was in primary school. I have been working as a para-legal for 5 years now, and depsite having the FE-1s I have had no joy with an apprencticeship. I am now looking to change career completely, and since making that descision it is like all the pressure has been lifted. It was hard to give up on my dreams, but I have had a good few years in the profession so far so can't complain. Onwards and upwards for me!


----------



## Bazoo

That's a shame Trafford. What are you considering changing to? If it's any consolation I regret not having opted for primary school teaching. It's not viable for me to pursue it at this stage. Best of luck with your decision.


----------



## Trafford

Bazoo said:


> That's a shame Trafford. What are you considering changing to? If it's any consolation I regret not having opted for primary school teaching. It's not viable for me to pursue it at this stage. Best of luck with your decision.


 
My objective is to change to something that, above all, will genuinely interest me. I am very interested in the arts and literature, and have been exploring the option of opening a gallery or doing an arts admin post grad perhaps. I have an interview for a librarian position coming up too which I am very excited about.


----------



## asv

Hey Trafford, Im sorry to hear that the law route didnt work out for you and wish you all the best in your new career. If you don't mind me asking how exactly did you get into paralegal work.


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## MOB

I am dismayed by the negative experiences of some of the contributors here.  While I cannot refute the various assertions made, I do think some small contribution is called for to balance the debate a little:

"You are truly at the bottom of the food chain and reminded of it on a daily basis, in particular by those who have no concept of what it means to be educated"   

I remember being at the bottom of the food chain when I was an apprentice;  It didn't seem that bad; somebody has to be at the bottom of the office pecking order; at least the apprentice has the comfort that his\her status is temporary.  I can't imagine that it would be at all helpful to point out to other office staff that they have no concept of what it means to be educated.  If as an apprentice my attitude had been informed by such an outlook, I imagine this would have shown, and would not have helped me.

"The money is awful"   

It's not great; but it's not that terribly bad.  For the employer, when you take account of time actually worked, the cost of a trainee equates to paying someone circa. €30k per annum.  Not a fortune, but you can see why many solicitors would prefer to hire an experienced secretary or legal executive.  

"you're treated like dirt"  Not true in many offices.  Certainly not true in mine.  I believe (and certainly hope) that it is only true in a small minority.

"a lot (not all) of the work is monotonous and sometimes soul-destroying."  Undoubtedly true.   This is the nature of a lot of legal work.  It's certainly not for everybody.


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## Bazoo

MOB said:


> I am dismayed by the negative experiences of some of the contributors here.  While I cannot refute the various assertions made, I do think some small contribution is called for to balance the debate a little:
> 
> "You are truly at the bottom of the food chain and reminded of it on a daily basis, in particular by those who have no concept of what it means to be educated"
> 
> I remember being at the bottom of the food chain when I was an apprentice;  It didn't seem that bad; somebody has to be at the bottom of the office pecking order; at least the apprentice has the comfort that his\her status is temporary.  *I can't imagine that it would be at all helpful to point out to other office staff that they have no concept of what it means to be educated.  If as an apprentice my attitude had been informed by such an outlook, I imagine this would have shown, and would not have helped me.*
> 
> "The money is awful"
> 
> It's not great; but it's not that terribly bad.  *For the employer, when you take account of time actually worked, the cost of a trainee equates to paying someone circa. €30k per annum.  *Not a fortune, but you can see why many solicitors would prefer to hire an experienced secretary or legal executive.



Where did I say that I pointed out to office staff that they have no concept of what it means to be educated? This is not something I pointed out to anyone. It was something of which I was aware in my own office. Though it was certainly not the case with the majority of secretaries, there were several oldies there who were determined to assert their 'status' at regular intervals. And this was not an 'attitude which informed my outlook', it was part and parcel of working where I did and from reports from colleagues, is not an uncommon phenomenon. Of course, it has advantages too in that new trainees coming into an office who are know-it-alls (not me!) are put in their place pretty quickly.

With regards to pay, I'm not sure what you mean by *For the employer, when you take account of time actually worked, the cost of a trainee equates to paying someone circa. €30k per annum. 
*The salary for a trainee solicitor post PPC1 remains in or about 20k gross a year. Some are paid minimum wage and get their fees paid because their employer can claim back 47% of fees paid. Pittance by any standards. And on the subject of fees, the Law Society Courses at a current total of almost 11k must be one of the most if not the most expensive professional course fees in the country.

I commented simply give an awareness to those considering the FE1 route that passing the law soc entrance exams (an arduous feat in itself) is just the beginning of a long road to qualification which may not turn out to be what they expected. With the numbers qualifying now, a job isn't guaranteed at the end and it's taking newly qualified solicitors longer to find jobs. From discussions with colleagues, I know I'm not alone in my opinions.


----------



## MOB

"I'm not sure what you mean by For the employer, when you take account of time actually worked, the cost of a trainee equates to paying someone circa. €30k per annum. "

What I meant is that you pay an apprentice whether they are in the office or off at the Law Society.  If you take the cost of an apprentice over the course of the apprenticeship and then apply it to the time that they are actually in the office, I think I worked it out at broadly the equivalent of €30k per annum for time actually spent working in the office.

 Come to think of it, I think I might have factored in the Law Society fees to this calculation (which I think most larger offices pay - I pay them but subject to reimbursement if trainee leaves other than at my request or through force majeure before end of training period; I think this is a fair compromise).

"And on the subject of fees, the Law Society Courses at a current total of almost 11k must be one of the most if not the most expensive professional course fees in the country."

This is because the course is completely unsubsidised by the State.  Law students are among the least burdensome on state coffers (medicine I think is the most burdensome, though that is probably fair enough given the training environment which must be provided for them).  The Competition Authority have suggested that the Law Society training course be open to being provided by third parties.  I doubt that this would bring down costs while maintaining the quality of the course (there are literally scores of professional lecturer and tutor contributors to each course)


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## Bazoo

Your argument in respect of 30k being paid to Law soc students just doesn't stand to reason. The bottom line is that a law soc student gets no more than 18k per annum after tax/prsi into his or her pocket. It may go some way to explaining why so many take on second jobs at bar work or waitressing. Furthermore, a lot of students are so desperate for apprenticeships that they are agreeing not to be paid during the course and to pay their own law soc fees, indenture registration fees etc.

As for why the fees are so high in the law soc, this is of little relevance to a student and doesn't alter the fact that the fees are prohibitively high, meaning many PPC students have to take out loans to fund their education. Regarding the teaching of trainee solicitors, while I would be of the opinion that the PPC1 remains at a high standard and is a good, intensive teaching course, I would argue that the PPC2 is of a poor standard to the extent that it is effectively a waste of over 4k. There is a huge amount of free time, topics are not considered in any depth and students are forced to pick subjects in areas of law which at that stage of their traineeship, they know they will likely never practice. Personally I think to scupper the PPC2 would be advantageous financially for both the law student and the training solicitor.


----------



## Madangan

Firstly and genuinely good luck to everyone looking for an apprenticeship. I know they seem to be about as rare as hens teeth at the moment.

Sorry to be negative but has anyone considered that it may be just as difficult to get paid employment as a solicitor when you are clutching your parchment in a few years time.

I qualified many moons ago (early 90s) and saw friends work for a pittance post qualification just to get post qualification experience. Some worked for the recommended apprenticship rate for a year after qualifying,some for considerably less (and the recommended rate was no where near what its is today even taking into account inflation) and some worked for free and at least two of my pals didnt work for a year! The last 10 years have been very good to most solicitors including myself but the times are a changin BIG TIME.

The reality for many small to medium size firms at the moment is the last thing they can afford is an apprentice right now. Many are considering letting qualified experienced staff(solicitors and back up staff ) go at the moment as between PIAB and the lull in conveyancing and the neverending stream of newly qualified solictors starting up their own practices (because they cant get employment) things are getting very tough out there.

If you really want to be a solicitor then go for it as there are many positives and despite the constants negative press it is still a proud dignified and worthy profession to be a part of. But if you are just falling into it or you are doing it for the money or the prestige then do yourself a very large favour and seriously consider doing something else. The fact that you already have your degree or FE1s does not mean you have to become a solicitor. A background in law will stand you in good stead elsewhere.

In the next few years I believe that the competition for apprenticeships,jobs for solicitors and actual fee earning work will becomee even more intense and cutthroat than it is now. The press ,the competition authority and the plain people of ireland may have you believe that qualifying as a solicitor is a licence to print money but it simply isnt true. You will work very hard in an ever more demanding environment and subject to ever more criticsm to earn your massive salary(if you are lucky).

So to those who really want it welcome but to those who are not sure or are just in it for the money believe me there must be an easier way to do it.
GOOD LUCK to all either way(and thanks to all for reading my little rant..I feel much better now )


----------



## miak

This is slightly off topic but I would really appreciate anyone's opinion/advice. I am currently working as a trainee in a very reputable firm. I was delighted to get contract in first place but now I really hate it. I have been there quite a few months but the situation is not getting any better. It's just not my kind of office. It's very profit orientated, clients come and go like they are on some conveyor belt and many of the solicitors and trainess alike are extremely rude to clients and each other and this is not the kind of experience I wanted.

I am now giving serious consideration to sending out cvs to smaller firms. I have worked in a small firm before and really enjoyed it. It was a more intimate environment and had a much greater client focus.

I have no problem with my actual work per se. I'm not delusional about what a training contract entails, I have no problem with menial or monontonous work, its just the people I work with. I would happily pay my own fees in Blackhall Plce, if it means that I'm happy where I work.

My problem is, if I do suceed in getting a contract elsewhere, am I going to sabotage my own career by leaving a very reputable office which would give me great exposure? Which do I choose, status or happiness?


----------



## sheena1

While obvioulsly the correct answer is happiness I think you know it's not really that straightforward or you wouldn't be so confused. The reality is that you may have difficulty securing another apprenticeship and if you are successful there is no guarantee that a smaller firm would be any "friendlier". How far through your apprenticeship are you? Have you done the PPC-1? It depends on how long you have left to serve in your apprenticeship really. Personally I would toughen it out and try not to let people and personalities get to me if you don't mind the work itself.


----------



## Madangan

I would recommend that you stay where you are. Already, apart from what you may have learned on the legal side ,you are gaining a huge insight as to your own preferences, also how you believe people should behave towards clients etc.. Stick it out, it will look good on your CV and the apprenticeship will be over soon.You will then have the option to move to similar sized firms or smaller. 
Also chances are that you will move around in the firm and will come across some very nice prople there too( how many different departments have you worked in so far in the firm).I work in a small firm but some of the most pleasant and professional solicitors I know work in the very big firms and equally I have come across some total prats in two person firms. The training of watching every penny and knowing how to charge (and also when not to )will be invaluable if you ever decide to set up your own practice. So stick it out,its not forever and you will not regret doing it.


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## Trafford

Madangan said:


> Firstly and genuinely good luck to everyone looking for an apprenticeship. I know they seem to be about as rare as hens teeth at the moment.
> 
> Sorry to be negative but has anyone considered that it may be just as difficult to get paid employment as a solicitor when you are clutching your parchment in a few years time.
> 
> I qualified many moons ago (early 90s) and saw friends work for a pittance post qualification just to get post qualification experience. Some worked for the recommended apprenticship rate for a year after qualifying,some for considerably less (and the recommended rate was no where near what its is today even taking into account inflation) and some worked for free and at least two of my pals didnt work for a year! The last 10 years have been very good to most solicitors including myself but the times are a changin BIG TIME.
> 
> The reality for many small to medium size firms at the moment is the last thing they can afford is an apprentice right now. Many are considering letting qualified experienced staff(solicitors and back up staff ) go at the moment as between PIAB and the lull in conveyancing and the neverending stream of newly qualified solictors starting up their own practices (because they cant get employment) things are getting very tough out there.
> 
> If you really want to be a solicitor then go for it as there are many positives and despite the constants negative press it is still a proud dignified and worthy profession to be a part of. But if you are just falling into it or you are doing it for the money or the prestige then do yourself a very large favour and seriously consider doing something else. The fact that you already have your degree or FE1s does not mean you have to become a solicitor. A background in law will stand you in good stead elsewhere.
> 
> In the next few years I believe that the competition for apprenticeships,jobs for solicitors and actual fee earning work will becomee even more intense and cutthroat than it is now. The press ,the competition authority and the plain people of ireland may have you believe that qualifying as a solicitor is a licence to print money but it simply isnt true. You will work very hard in an ever more demanding environment and subject to ever more criticsm to earn your massive salary(if you are lucky).
> 
> So to those who really want it welcome but to those who are not sure or are just in it for the money believe me there must be an easier way to do it.
> GOOD LUCK to all either way(and thanks to all for reading my little rant..I feel much better now )


 
Many thanks for this. I am one of those with the law experience, the FE-1s and the education but I have decided to stop the pursuit of an apprenticeship. The reasons you outline above are a lot to do with it. So far I think it has been the best decision I have made.


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## aokeefe

Hi, has anyone any feedback on the FE-1 Direct Seminar given in UL. I know that there is a lot of prep work before attending it but is it possible to cover everything necessary in a one day course per exam?


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## asv

Hey aokeefe
Western Management Centre iN Galway is quite good on one day exam prep for the FE-1'S, especially Caitriona's or Catherine's courses (sorry her exact name fails me at the moment but there are only two lecturers). I had her as a tutor in NUIG and then decided to attend the Tort Revision Course - she distilled the course to the bare necessities for the exam and  was absolutuely brilliant - will be going back to her in August for Company and Constitutional. The number of the centre is on the Law Soc webpage - hope that is of some help. 

P.S. You do need to do a lot of work prior to attendance!


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## sara:)

Griffith is the best revision course. Their tips are spot on & you get up to date course notes. It is worth the extra time & money.

I also did the western mgt course in galway but there is no comparison with griffith. It is only a quick summary of  the subject and it did not help me pass so i wouldn't reccomend.


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## LB25

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

I have got all my FE1s and the Irish exam and am employed in the Courts Service temporarily. Im going to begin applying for apprenticeships this year. My LLM was in International Human Rights Law and I am not sure whether this will be a turn off for firms looking at my CV. The advice given is generally to stick to what youre interested in and I am interested in human rights and development, however I wouldnt expect it to be a part of my work as a solicitor in Ireland. There arent very many, if any, firms in Ireland that specialise in human rights work. Can anyone give me any advice as to what extent my LLM will be advantageous/disadvantageous to my search for an apprenticeship? Also should I put down any overseas volunteering/travel on my CV or is this irrelevant?


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## Oilean Beag

Defintely fit your travel & volunteering experience into your CV, maybe under interests or somewhere like that. 

An LLM will only enhance your CV, but I would be particular in your interviews that you understand that any given firm wont work in it regularly.


----------



## LB25

Is there any particular that needs to be included in a CV for trainee positions that isnt included on others/any specifications expected by firms when viewing a CV? How much of my previous employment is relevant, only legal work experience/legal jobs or are other jobs relevant too, such as general office jobs?
Also, does anyone know how long it takes to hear back from firms? Im planning on sending out CVs in September/October and, if successful, to do the PPC1 in 2008. If, as someone said above, the "topten" firms require people to start up to a year beforehand, do I need to be prepared to drop all and go if a position arises? I am in the process of arranging travel abroad early next year for up to eight weeks.
Thanks for your help, I have so many questions, wish Id known about this site a year ago!


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## Oilean Beag

What you need to do is try and get onto all the top ten's websites and check out their recruitment plans. Most of them recruit at least one if not two years in advance, with most interviews in late Dec early Jan so you should be ok with travel plans after that. 

If you are looking at the medium or smaller firms, they are looking moreso for immediate starts, so you would have to be ready to go if you are looking this route.


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## LB25

This is the part I dont fully understand, dont you have to have done the PPC1 before you can begin a training contract? If the course runs once a year, wouldnt I have to wait a year before I start with a firm anyway?


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## camarilla

Trafford said:


> Many thanks for this. I am one of those with the law experience, the FE-1s and the education but I have decided to stop the pursuit of an apprenticeship. The reasons you outline above are a lot to do with it. So far I think it has been the best decision I have made.



Can I ask what job you decided to opt for instead?


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## LB25

quick question - they say at career advice seminars etc to target fims who deal with an area of law you are interested in and to specify this interest in your cover letter thereby showing that you've chosen the firm carefully and are informed about the areas in which they practice...can anyone looking for a traineeship really afford to be fussy? Surely its more a case of beggars cant be choosers..?


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## Bazoo

LB25 said:


> quick question - they say at career advice seminars etc to target fims who deal with an area of law you are interested in and to specify this interest in your cover letter thereby showing that you've chosen the firm carefully and are informed about the areas in which they practice...can anyone looking for a traineeship really afford to be fussy? *Surely its more a case of beggars cant be choosers..?*



This is absolutely the case at the moment. however there's no harm in trying to get into a firm that covers areas you are interested in.


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## miak

I think it is more relevant when applying to firms that you find out what areas they practice in. I work in quite a specialised firm and we receive so many cvs from people who have no idea what kind of law we practice. These cvs are never considered. However, those people who do identify our practice areas and match them to their own cv will always get a second look! Even to look in the special pages some firms will advertise practice areas, criminal firms will also advertise an after hours paging number with their listing or look on the courts website in the legal diary for you area and you will see what firms regularly appear in civil, family or criminal cases etc. It's a good way to make your cover letter stand out and show (or pretend to) a firm that you are particularly interested in working in that firm and that you are not just sending out the same cv and cover letter to every firm.


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## Trafford

camarilla said:


> Can I ask what job you decided to opt for instead?


 
I just remained in my current job, which is legal executive. I do the work of a solicitor but alas not the same salary. If an opportunity to train appears in the next 5 years I can still pursue it. I might look again now in the autumn, but I have realised it is not the be all and end all.


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## LB25

Is it better to phone firms first to find out if they are taking on trainees or just to send cvs out anyway?


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## Trafford

LB25 said:


> Is it better to phone firms first to find out if they are taking on trainees or just to send cvs out anyway?


 
Well seeing as 99% will say no it would probably be too soul destroying. That's my experience from the reponses I get back anyway. Having said that, out of 100 letters sent last year I only got 27 responses back, and all of them said they weren't taking on trainees. They others most likely just threw it in the bin. 

Sorry, I know I'm quite cynical now but I am about 3 or 4 years now looking for one!


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## Oilean Beag

Research on the net first. Alot of firms these days have websites ( more so in Dublin) Anyway, they may indicate in the careers section that they take on x amount of trainees at a certain point every year. 

There are alot more firms out there that hire trainees annually than you would think. The key is to be on your toes and to be aware of all the open recruitments that are running, closing dates etc. The large firms usually hire by way of application form. Do not underestimate the amount of time required to fill these in. 

After the large recruitment drives ( usually Sept to Jan) look to on spec applications. Can be disheartening, but may turn up something worthwhile.  Keep an eye on the Law Society Gazette ( viewable online at www.lawsociety.ie) , the classifed ads in the national papers and if you are willing to travel for a traning contract, you may see something in the provincial papers also.  You can also access a list of all solictor firms on the law society website by location. 

As mentioned above, tailor each application to the type of firm you are applying to ( large , small, specialist). I woudl also recommend havign your CV reviewed by a professional. I woudl highly recommend Carr Communications.


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## dK1NG

*Re: Legal Apprenticeship?*

Just signed up here after reading this thread. Any help would be much appreciated.



miak said:


> Hi,
> 
> My question is slightly off the point here but I would still appreciate any opinion/advice. I am moving to London in Sept to start an LLM. I'm not doing this solely for the purposes of securing a training contract but I am concerned that my subject choice could have an adverse effect on my applications. If I were to take mostly criminal law subjects would I effectively be ruling myself out of competition for a contract in a non criminal firm? Conversely if I don't concentrate heavily on Criminal Law will I still have a chance of a training contract in a criminal firm? From friends, collegues etc I have been told that the bigger criminal firms usually only take apprentices with Masters in Crim.



I'm in a similar position - currently doing a phd in criminal justice, having passed the fe1s in apr05.

Doesnt this effectively rule out a job in one of the top tier firms (not that I have any interest whatsoever in commercial practice, but one firm in particular may be appealing in that they have a new public pollicy department). I know I will have transferable skills from the phd itself, and still not sure what road to go down when I finish it.

EDIT: jsut noticed A+L have a corporate criminal offences section now, anyone heard ought bout this? I've never heard of it before, is it a recent development?

By the by, what are the "bigger criminal firms" in Ireland? I know of a few like ferrys etc, but has anyone had any experience of doing an apprenticeship with these firms? 



SNB said:


> I thought it was five years from the time you passed your last FE1 ? On my letter from the Law Society I was sure my last entry date was five years from the year I passed the last.
> 
> I don't have the letter to hand to check , but it might be worthwhile to have another look at yours.
> 
> Have you registered with the trainee register in the Law Society ?





Trafford said:


> The way they phrased it on my letter (as I checked it again last week) was "5 years from when you first get exemptions". By this they mean from when you pass your initial 3 exams, which in my case was the April sitting 2005.



I done the first 4 in oct 04, and finished the next 4 in apr 05. You have five years from the end of the year in which you finished your eighth exam before they expire, from what I remember.




LB25 said:


> I have got all my FE1s and the Irish exam and am employed in the Courts Service temporarily. Im going to begin applying for apprenticeships this year. My LLM was in International Human Rights Law and I am not sure whether this will be a turn off for firms looking at my CV. The advice given is generally to stick to what youre interested in and I am interested in human rights and development, however I wouldnt expect it to be a part of my work as a solicitor in Ireland. There arent very many, if any, firms in Ireland that specialise in human rights work. Can anyone give me any advice as to what extent my LLM will be advantageous/disadvantageous to my search for an apprenticeship? Also should I put down any overseas volunteering/travel on my CV or is this irrelevant?




I'd also be interested to hear some more thoughts on this. I have a keen interest in human rights/ criminal justice etc, and have no intention of "selling my soul" by doing a commercial orientated apprenticeship when I know I have no interest in that side of things. I'm not in this for the money, I always wanted to study law, and the criminal side of things is where I see my future (whether this be in academia, research or practice I still dont know...).


Cheers.


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## brenda24

LB25 said:


> Is it better to phone firms first to find out if they are taking on trainees or just to send cvs out anyway?


 
I never tried telephoning firms, couldn't imagine it being much addition. You shoud use the Law Directory ( a 2007 one if possible because firms move around so much) and address your covering letters to the principals in each firm you are applying to. You should individually address each letter as well as I found the response rate to be a lot higher when I did that. I sent approximately 400-500 letters and got replies from around 60%, the majority were PFOs. If you are already working in a firm, you should ask can you send CVs in the DX. I did that as as I was spending a fortune on postage. It's more reliable than the post too. I got interviews for two of the big firms where some 200 people seemed to have been selected, very disheartening experiences! I got two interviews for one small firm where they neglected to tell me until the second interview that they would not want me to go to Blackhall until 2008. This would have entailed me working for 18months pre-Blackhall on minimum wage and they didn't even offer it to me in the end! I had two interviews with another medium sized firm which I felt went very well and was totally gutted to get the PFO a week later. 

Securing an apprenticeship was for me, entirely fortuitous. When I finished my FE1s I temped for several months. I became frustrated in the firm I was working in at the time as I spent my days typing letters that were literally dictated word for word, very tedious. I applied for a legal secretary role covering maternity leave in another firm (the job was advertised on irishjobs.ie) and was offered an apprenticeship in that firm which I just started recently when my boss's secretary returned from leave. The firm is less than a 10 minute drive from my house too so there is certainly an element of luck involved. You just need to persevere with the search. There is rampant nepotism in play but I also met a lot of people in the same boat as me.

Best of luck

Brenda


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## LB25

thank you to everyone for their help in all this. What is the consensus about cover letters and whether they should be tailored to each firm? I have a list of about 200 firms and, except for the larger ones who have application forms anyway, it is difficult (and time consuming!) to research into what area of law each of them specialise in. It seems most smaller firms do a bit of everything anyway...will I really have to fane an interest in conveyancing or will they see straight though that anyway?!


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## Bazoo

LB25 said:


> thank you to everyone for their help in all this. What is the consensus about cover letters and whether they should be tailored to each firm? I have a list of about 200 firms and, except for the larger ones who have application forms anyway, it is difficult (and time consuming!) to research into what area of law each of them specialise in. It seems most smaller firms do a bit of everything anyway...will I really have to fane an interest in *conveyancing or will they see straight though that anyway*?!



Probably. In all likelihood you know next to nothing about it and so are unlikely to know if you actually like it or not!


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## LB25

Ive just heard that I have an interview already. Im thrilled but very unsure as to what to expect. Its a small firm and as far I know they deal with a variety of areas. They said to come in for a chat which sounds rather informal. Should I be preparing answers to dreaded questions such as "why have you chosen law" or just turn up and see what happens? Ive tried researching the firm but no website etc. Has anyone had an interview for a small firm that could offer any advise?


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## MOB

"Securing an apprenticeship was for me, entirely fortuitous. "

It certainly wasn't.  You made a lot of sensible moves to maximise your chances.  Well done.


----------



## Stifster

LB25 said:


> Ive just heard that I have an interview already. Im thrilled but very unsure as to what to expect. Its a small firm and as far I know they deal with a variety of areas. They said to come in for a chat which sounds rather informal. Should I be preparing answers to dreaded questions such as "why have you chosen law" or just turn up and see what happens? Ive tried researching the firm but no website etc. Has anyone had an interview for a small firm that could offer any advise?


 
If you are only looking for an apprenticeship then you cant really be expected to have an interest in anything specific. At that stage it is more about personality, are you going to be able to work with these prospective employers. 

Be keen to find out what they do, have they any niche work for example. Say you are looking forward to working hard and learning from them. Say you enjoy working on your own inititaive but realise that that will only come with time. That is one thing I look for as i like to feel i can delegate (the non-essential stuff anyway!) to the apprentice.

Best of luck.


----------



## Corroboratio

Hey,

I am a Masters degree qualified engineer thinking about taking the Fe1s. Well, more than just thinking actually, read the most detailed of the Societies recommended books for each subject, cover to cover. 

1.
My first question is on the detail required for a good FE1 answer. If I develop answers based on the books, will that not be sufficient? 

Or is there some special level of detail or veneer/slant to the answers needed that requires courses such as Griffith's revision course? Why do even law graduates find the FE1 exams difficult?

2.
Although I live in dublin, I would ultimately like to move to a county with less restrictive planning ploicies for one off houses. Is there a significant demand for trainee's and PQE solicitors in the midlands region, say within a 30 mile radius of West Offaly? 

Thanks,
Corroboration.


----------



## LouisLaLoope

Corroboratio said:


> 1.
> My first question is on the detail required for a good FE1 answer. If I develop answers based on the books, will that not be sufficient?
> 
> Or is there some special level of detail or veneer/slant to the answers needed that requires courses such as Griffith's revision course? Why do even law graduates find the FE1 exams difficult?


 
Hi there,

I didn't have a law degree either and did the FE1's (I'm due to qualify in March - hurrah!).  Make no mistake, they're an unbelievable nightmare.  I'm not saying this to frighten you, just to warn you.  Be sure you want to pursue this because it takes FOREVER.  I think you can email me via this website so feel free to do so cos I've got a load of opinions on FE1 exams!

In brief, I went to DIT and did their PG Dip in Legal Studies.  That gave me a good grounding.  But then I did the night grinds at Griffith.  I can't fault that place.  Excellent lecturers, great materials.  They work you hard but I think it's a great place.  

FE1 questions are not hard.  I believe it's the competition.  For some reason, we all want to be lawyers.  Thousands sit the exams so your answers have to stand out.  I found a technique that worked for me and will happily share it if it helps you!

You say you've read all those books but you need exam technique.  Get yourself down to Griffith now (I'd say their prep courses for the March 2008 sitting will be starting in October).  Sign up for four.  Then sign up for the summer course and do your next four in September 2008.

Best of luck!


----------



## bor

Have been trying for the past year or two to get the elusive apprenticeship to no avail. It def seems to be either luck or a case of "who you know"(outside of Dublin anyway). I am now thinking of starting the Taxation exams to try and beef up the cv a bit and get some kind of edge. 

I dont work in a accounting/tax environment so i know it will require a bit of work to get these exams(at least I will be exempt from the Law module in the first year).

Just wondeing if people out there, particularly those within the trade, think this would be an advantage in getting a place. After the law degree and the FE-1's I dont want to waste more time doing these exams if they are not going to be of any use. 

Thanks.


----------



## Corroboratio

Hi,

Has anyone reading this actually passed by the FE1’s based just on their own study of the books on the recommended reading list, without aid of a grinds course or law degree? 

Also, any opinionis on point “2” in my post of thurdsay september 20th?

Thanks,


----------



## Tersher

Have been following this thread - there is a wealth of information here - Many thanks!! 

I am just signing up for a Prep course for the FE-1 exams, moving from a different career - Wondering if anyone might have advice on subjects & timelines - 

Firstly... Planning to do 4 subjects in March/April & 4 in September next year - Are there specific subjects that it would be advisable to tackle together? Any advice on subjects that complement each other or should definitely be addressed first/at the end would be welcome. 

Secondly, any opinions on career options for the coming year would be great - Currently working in a stressful corporate environment, not conducive to unrelated activities such as study for the FE-1 exams! Wondering should I be looking for a position in a legal setting, or what would be the chances, coming from an unrelated profession, before having sat the FE-1 exams. My other thinking is to try to sustain the well-paid job I currently have for as long as possible in anticipation of lesser paid legal positions to come..... 

Any advice welcome. Thanks..


----------



## Trafford

Corroboratio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Has anyone reading this actually passed by the FE1’s based just on their own study of the books on the recommended reading list, without aid of a grinds course or law degree?
> 
> Also, any opinionis on point “2” in my post of thurdsay september 20th?
> 
> Thanks,


 
Hi,

I have been looking for an apprenticeship in the midlands for the past 2 years and have had no success. I had 3 interviews and 2 of them never came back to me. I was then offered 1 but the guy was dodgy as hell and was annoyed at me that I wanted to be paid through the tax system. In the end I figured I was desperate, but not that desperate. To be honest I can't ever see myself as a solicitor now. It's a mixture of not being able to get a master, and not wanting to end up like the solicitors I've met through the interview process. I've worked in law for the past 5 years and know very few solicitors who are happy with their chose career. I'm sure plenty are but I don't know any. 

I am very happy working as a legal executive and would gladly stay in this in an in-house position if possible. Because I live in Laois though this may be difficult. A career change looks like my best option.


----------



## LouisLaLoope

Tersher said:


> Firstly... Planning to do 4 subjects in March/April & 4 in September next year - Are there specific subjects that it would be advisable to tackle together? Any advice on subjects that complement each other or should definitely be addressed first/at the end would be welcome.


 
I did contract, company, criminal, tort, and equity together at the first sitting.  Then the other three at the next sitting (constitutional, EU, property).  I think contract and company should go together.  Constitutional is just a pain so slot it in wherever (but I wouldn't do it first time around) - it helps nothing and I wish it never existed!  I found criminal, tort, and equity quite straightforward so that boosted my confidence.  Property is a bit harder.  I wasn't mad about EU but I think other people find it grand.  Other than that, do whatever you think best!

Good luck.


----------



## LB25

Corroboratio said:


> Hi,
> 
> Has anyone reading this actually passed by the FE1’s based just on their own study of the books on the recommended reading list, without aid of a grinds course or law degree?
> 
> Also, any opinionis on point “2” in my post of thurdsay september 20th?
> 
> Thanks,


----------



## dK1NG

like s/o already mentioned, contract n company work well together. IMO, i think property n equity should be done together as well.


----------



## Tersher

Thanks for the advice folks..much appreciated.


----------



## ford10

I only have a 3rd class honours arts degree from u.c.d but i have a 2.1 hdip in  social justice and equality u.c.d, a 2.2 in legal studies and currently doing emploment law in u.c.d.

*Will the 3rd class honour haunt me forever *even with my 8 fe 1's?

*DO the firms actually check your transcripts?*


----------



## Stifster

Just put in honours arts... some actually do check. The bigger firms tend to have a 2.1 minimum.


----------



## randomboy

just about to start sending off my applications to the bigger firms. I'm only applying to about 10/11 places i.e the places with information about trainees on their website. Are pople literally just sending CVs anywhere?

I've a high 2.1 from UCD law and a 1.1 from TCD LLM which I've just finished up. I've passed 4 FE1s and waiting on the results of another 3 (which I expect to pass).
I've been working part time for a year and a half in a bank which means I don't have much time for team sports or major extra curricular activities, though I obviously have past times and interests. I hope this doesn't reflect badly. I also don't have any experience working in a legal firm either, I always spend my summers working to earn money for college.

Hopefully I won't get a rake of PFOs.

p.s this is possibly the most depressing thread I've ever read


----------



## Stifster

I'd advise applying to more firms than that. I only applied to 7 or 8 and then lost a year to AIB (that i can never get back!*) before securing a position through a contact.

_*Mind you I still get free banking 10 years later_


----------



## LB25

I have sent off all my applications for apprenticeships, about 150 of them, and have received pfos for almost all of them (bar the top ten firms) already. I did have an interview last month for a small firm in my home town, which I obtained through a contact. It went well and they said the would contact me late december. Id say I have a reasonable chance. 
However Ive recently done an interview for a legal research position which is for a years contract and which is not only well paid but something I would enjoy doing. 
If apprenticeships only start after the PPC1 then Im ok, as even if I get one I wouldnt start straight away. But it seems that isnt a hard and fast rule and that firms can ask you to start at any stage. 
I dont want to pass up a good opportunity and then not get any apprenticeship in this round anyway. 
Does anyone know - when would a firm want someone to start? Would ringing the firm and asking them be a bad idea?


----------



## Corroboratio

Has anyone reading this actually passed by the FE1’s based just on their own study of the books on the recommended reading list, without aid of a grinds course or law degree?


----------



## serpentine

How can I go about qualifying as a solicitor without going down the universtiy route?


----------



## Sand10

Hey...I have just stumbled across this website today and its really freaking me out!!!I knew it would be hard to secure an apprenticeship but i never realised it would be this bad! "soul destroying" even?! I have a 2:1 honours degree in commerce and spanish from ucc, i worked in a bank for the summer and am currently doing work experience in a solicitors.i am starting the fe1 course in griffith in a weeks time.Is it too early to start applying for apprenticeships for next year or is it pointless applying without the fe1s passed??help!


----------



## Trafford

Sand10 said:


> Hey...I have just stumbled across this website today and its really freaking me out!!!I knew it would be hard to secure an apprenticeship but i never realised it would be this bad! "soul destroying" even?! I have a 2:1 honours degree in commerce and spanish from ucc, i worked in a bank for the summer and am currently doing work experience in a solicitors.i am starting the fe1 course in griffith in a weeks time.Is it too early to start applying for apprenticeships for next year or is it pointless applying without the fe1s passed??help!


 
Hi, and welcome onboard, both to the forum and to the search for an apprenticeship! It's probably never too early to get your CV out there, and also if you do get a lot of PFOs it will prepare you for the slog. Check out this too: http://groups.google.ie/group/FE-1-Study-Group?msg=subscribe&hl=en


----------



## Sand10

tanx trafford....im already beginning to think iv made a mistake!o well....soldier on i spose!!


----------



## Bazoo

Maples and Calder are currently recruiting trainees if anyone is interested in applying. Check out their website


----------



## Gooner1

Hi. Just wondering what sort of work a trainee does? Is it a case of trying to pass the day without dying of boredom or is it in anyway interesting?


----------



## Ms Legal

got called for a group interview for Arthur Cox nxt wk...not too sure wat to expect...any tips anyone??

Cheers


----------



## Stifster

Gooner1 said:


> Hi. Just wondering what sort of work a trainee does? Is it a case of trying to pass the day without dying of boredom or is it in anyway interesting?


 
Depends on the firm you are with, you would usually be busy for starters, whether it is interesting or not is another question altogether!

Ms Legal, make your presence felt, don't talk for the sake of it but don't be silent either.


----------



## Ms Legal

Thanks Stifster. i just afraid that I won't get the opportunity to come across exactly how I want to..if ya know wat i mean!!! nervous aready..eek!


----------



## Ms Legal

Thanks Stifster. i just afraid that I won't get the opportunity to come across exactly how I want to..if ya know wat i mean!!! nervous aready..eek! you get any ideas of type of discussion topics?


----------



## Stifster

I did a six month stint in there after the first stint in Blackhall, went from a three solicitor practice in Dublin 11 to, well, a completely different world in Dublin 2. Enjoyed the time.

Is that the stage after sending in your V or have you already had an interview? At this stage I would say that on paper you are good enough. There is a alot of team work so it may well be about the interaction, seeing who listens vs who hears etc


----------



## the gaffer

What's the story with this group interview with AC...suit job or what?


----------



## Sherman

the gaffer said:


> What's the story with this group interview with AC...suit job or what?



Nah, hawaiian shirt and surf shorts I reckon


----------



## the gaffer

Cheers brother.


----------



## susan1

Hi
It is my understanding that Anyone with an LLB, (well almost every LLB), can sit the New York Bar exams, and then apply to the Irish law society here to be recognised, and do not then have to do the traineeship, 
Hope this helps
Susan


----------



## Trafford

susan1 said:


> Hi
> It is my understanding that Anyone with an LLB, (well almost every LLB), can sit the New York Bar exams, and then apply to the Irish law society here to be recognised, and do not then have to do the traineeship,
> Hope this helps
> Susan


 
Yes, that is sort of true but you still have to sit conversion exams to be admitted to the roll of solicitors in Ireland. You can work as an in-house lawyer in Ireland without being a member of the law society though.


----------



## Ms Legal

hey everyone! any one had an AC group interview, and willing to pass on a few tips?? im getting more worried bout it by the day...dnt have much idea wat kinda topics to expect.
Cheers


----------



## hope4711

I did this approx 18 years ago - i can't believe they're still doing them.  Not much help seeing as i didn't get through but based on the people i know who did their demeanour would be confident but not overly assertive or pushy.  Try to get your spake in but do not overpower - much easier said than done.  I recall that they threw out general discussion topics as well as general legal issues.  Good luck!


----------



## randomboy

Have my AC interview tomorrow as well. From the few lads I've talked to these first group interviews are more a case of deselecting yourself rather than selecting yourself. Its a way of removing the very nervous, mumblers, wafflers or whatever.
If you're confident, can talk reasonably well and presentable then you should be ok.

Best of luck.


----------



## Gooner1

Hi, could anyone tell me what type of work a legal executive does. is it similar to legal secretary. would it be a good idea to work as a legal exec for a financial institution to gain some experience or would i be better off looking for work in a solicitors office.


----------



## ails

I worked as a legal exec in a bank for about 18 months before I got my apprenticeship as a temp and I think that is the only reason that I got my traineeship. I did a lot of registration work etc and that is what they were looking for her. It def helped and I gained a lot more experience than in a solicitors office as a lot of the time you are just there to photocopy etc if they think you are looking for a traineeship! Good luck.


----------



## yvo

Hi all,

Any advice given so so much appreciated!!
I am a law grad, decent enough grades but not top of class in any way, fin last sept, and since then worked in a Bank (legal dept) for 6 months, done a bit of temp work and now workin part time in a solicitor firm (cant get apprenticeship there)
I have passed four fe1's and await next four results.
I applied to a few of the bigger firms there with rejection from AC.
I have no cntacts at all.
Should i wait until results come out ( due 2nd wk of dec)to send off cv's to the smaller firms or will that be too near xmas to rate on their list of things to do?
I remember someone said the apprenticeship thing is soul destroying.. it really really is.


----------



## western kid

hi. got my first interview with solicitor firm next week and just wondering about appearance. hairis 2 to 3 inches long and locks are coming down to base of ears. would this be frowned upon. any advice much appreciated


----------



## randomboy

western kid said:


> hi. got my first interview with solicitor firm next week and just wondering about appearance. hairis 2 to 3 inches long and locks are coming down to base of ears. would this be frowned upon. any advice much appreciated



Just look presentable. Wear a suit and have your hair neat, not the scruffy surfer look. If that means you need a chop go for it.

As a guy my hair is pretty long, past my eyes and over my ears. In an interview situation I would gel it back off my forehead and over my ears. Still long but quite neat looking. Didn't seem to bother A Cox as I've a second interview for them. Altough your hair might not be long enough for this.

Won't be able to make their play thing though, hopefully that won't notice.


----------



## the gaffer

..


----------



## namony

Hi Yvo,

It is certainly very difficult for many people to get an apprenticeship at the moment, but don't get disheartened. Having experience in the legal department of a bank will certainly stand to you, particularly with the bigger firms. Equally, working with a law firm will do you no harm, as it will demonstrate that you have an understanding of the realities of work as a solicitor, and a commitment to a career in the profession. Also, having FE1s will undoubtedly be a boost to your candidacy. A few years ago, it was the norm for people to be taken on without having any FE1s done, but this may have changed given that more and more people are applying.

I hope you get an apprenticeship this time around, but if you don't, there are several things you can do to enhance your attractiveness to the bigger firms for the next time. There are so many applications being made to these firms that it really is important to try and make yourself stand out from the crowd. For instance, writing an article for a legal journal is a good way to demonstrate aptitude and legal writing skills. Also, have you considered sitting the New York Bar exam? Everyone I know who has it was snapped up by Irish firms without any problems, because it adds an international dimension to your c.v. Alternatively, a diploma in employment law or the like could also help. I would also get involved in some sporting or other group activity as many law firms like to see that. 

Anyway, hope that helps and all the best.


----------



## Genghis

Re. interviews, has anyone heard from MOPs yet?, I got a letter acknowledging my application in late October but have heard nothing since which is a bit strange seeing as interviews were due to be in early January.


----------



## the gaffer

Yea,they told me to get lost .Got the letter onMonday.That's all the Big 5 now....


----------



## hatton

hey just wondering if anybody has heard anything from Maples and Calder or Hayes solicitors, applied to both of them in november and havnt heard anything back from them yet....


----------



## Genghis

I've got an interview with Maples and Calder early in the new year. They contacted me by phone on Thursday. Haven't heard from Hayes. Anyone have an experience of interview or work with Maples and Calder?


----------



## europhile

Who are the "Big 5"?


----------



## Stifster

MOP's, William Fry, Arthur Cox, McCann Fitzgerald, A&L Goodbody.

I would think that Fry's place at the top table must be under threat from a few of the larger medium sized firms.


----------



## europhile

Stifster said:


> MOP's, William Fry, Arthur Cox, McCann Fitzgerald, A&L Goodbody.
> 
> I would think that Fry's place at the top table must be under threat from a few of the larger medium sized firms.




Are they the Big 5 because of turnover or reputation or what?  Who are the pretenders to the throne?


----------



## Stifster

europhile said:


> Are they the Big 5 because of turnover or reputation or what?  Who are the pretenders to the throne?



Size I think.

O'Donnell Sweeney Eversheds, Eugene F Collins, Mason Hayes and Curran, BCM Hanby Wallace are among those in the next tier


----------



## the gaffer

Mason hayes curran, BCM Hanby Wallace, Dillon Eustace, Shields, Ronan Daly Jermyn I would assume.


----------



## Bazoo

[broken link removed]


----------



## LB25

I have an interview for BCM Hanby Wallace, would anyone be able to offer any advice as to what to expect? Im quite nervous about it, particularly the concept of a group interview...


----------



## namony

LB25 said:


> I have an interview for BCM Hanby Wallace, would anyone be able to offer any advice as to what to expect? Im quite nervous about it, particularly the concept of a group interview...


 
Group interviews are strange things, to be honest. Basically, you’re in a room with about ten other interviewees and the lawyers who are conducting it. They will ask you to introduce yourselves, and then will throw out topics for you to talk about amongst yourselves, which can range from current affairs to something light hearted. Based on this interview, they will invite certain people back for a further individual interview at a later date. 

People always wonder how to approach them: should you talk a little or a lot? I would be inclined to think that you’re more likely to talk yourself out of a further interview than into one. I’ve had several group interviews for law firms and I’ve always been struck by how dogmatic people get when debating the topics that are thrown out there. Some people make the mistake of thinking that the interviewers are looking for a really fiery person who argues very effectively. I remember one guy who did a group interview for a big firm with me who was cutting across everyone else and trying to monopolise every conversation. He was very pleased with himself afterwards as he felt that he’d “won” the debate and impressed the interviewers with his rhetoric. He’d missed the point completely: the lawyers who are conducting these interviews really don’t care what you think about global warming, the planning tribunals or Santa Claus’s labour policies. What they’re actually looking to see is how you interact with the other interviewees and how you conduct yourself in a stressful situation. Basically, they are deciding whether or not they could see themselves working with you. 

Therefore, the most important thing to remember is that the interviewers are not listening to what you’re saying; they’re watching how you’re acting. Don’t be “that really talkative guy/girl”! It is important to contribute, but confine yourself to one comment per topic max. Keep it simple, clear and avoid rambling on. Preferably, respond to something someone else has said rather than make the first remark. It goes down well to preface this with “As John/Jane was saying...” or whatever, because it shows that you were listening to what others were saying. Don’t worry about being completely up to date about current affairs etc; as long as you are not completely clueless about what’s going on in the world you’ll be fine. Also, be aware of your body language: I saw one guy whose hands were literally shaking, which was clearly noticed by the interviewers. They were undoubtedly thinking that someone who was this nervous wouldn’t be able to handle a real pressure situation. 

Anyway, hope that helps and best of luck. 

Feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss this further.


----------



## the gaffer

Hey,
Anyone have a Dillon Eustace Interview yet, any thoughts on it/what was it like.....


----------



## hatton

just wondering when dillon eustace sent word on interviews, didnt even bother sending me a rejection letter. this job hunting is starting to get really annoying now.


----------



## the gaffer

..


----------



## the gaffer

hatton said:


> just wondering when dillon eustace sent word on interviews, didnt even bother sending me a rejection letter. this job hunting is starting to get really annoying now.


Got a phone call a couple of days before Xmas.Interview's on Wednesday.Yea there were no letters involved,it was all email and phone calls...dunno if it's cost cutting or eco awareness or what!


----------



## Genghis

I've a second interview with Maples and Calder this week. Does anyone have any idea of what this will consist of?, the girl in HR said it would be ''an informal chat''. The first interview was fairly extensive, lasting over an hour so can't imagine what is left to discuss.


----------



## lam

I have a second interview with MOP on wednesday but I unfortunately missed their presentation on the interview process.  Does anyone have any idea about what I should expect? I've heard that the second interview can be quite "difficult!"


----------



## bor

Anyone have any idea if Frys have got back to the people they want yet...hate waiting for the dreaded letter in the door.


----------



## wildcat1

Just got a call from a partner in Frys yesterday offering a place so they're in the middle of getting back to people i think. Good luck!


----------



## bor

Well Done...well they havent been back to me so i suppose it will be a letter in the post next week


----------



## the gaffer

Did anyone find their 'hit' rate improving once they had a few fe-1s under their belt? I've none done yet,but still got a few interviews,but that was as far as I got!Fairly gutted,thought the Dillon Eustace one went quite well.Won't have the 8 fe-1s done till next October, so i'm jst gonna have to reapply next yr...but only to the firms recruiting for '09,not '10...don't want to be nearly 30 when I qualify!!


----------



## katblue

hi everyone!
im  currently doing a research masters which will be done in sept. have a 1.1 in law. applied to only 6 companys -got two iinterviews unfortunately wasnyt offered anything. didnt realise how hard this would be. really want to work in dublin. wasnt too interested in working in a small firm but now it looks like i have no choice. at the moment i am going through the law directory and sending out loads of CVs. does this even work? im soo disillusioned with a career in law at thhis stage-i feel like giving up!! i dont know what these firms want!! are there any medium sized firms hiring at the moment or are all of the deadlines passed!?


----------



## wildcat1

hey katblue, well done on the 1.1! you could check out mason hayes+curran coz the last time i checked their website it said they accepted cvs all year round and they gave no deadline


----------



## randomboy

katblue said:


> hi everyone!
> im  currently doing a research masters which will be done in sept. have a 1.1 in law. applied to only 6 companys -got two iinterviews unfortunately wasnyt offered anything. didnt realise how hard this would be. really want to work in dublin. wasnt too interested in working in a small firm but now it looks like i have no choice. at the moment i am going through the law directory and sending out loads of CVs. does this even work? im soo disillusioned with a career in law at thhis stage-i feel like giving up!! i dont know what these firms want!! are there any medium sized firms hiring at the moment or are all of the deadlines passed!?


Well your results are more than good enough. Although were in an uni or a private college?

Probably more to do with your interview style/CV layout then anything else. You also need to show you're more than a brain i.e jobs, work experience, sports and hobbies.


p.s. i was fairly unimpressed with mason hayes during their interview process. don't know how keen I'd be to work there.


----------



## Spanishlaw

Hi! First of all, my best wishes to everybody . I have been living in Ireland for more than 3 years and I had had a very good experience there in every aspect of my live. I am a junior Spanish solicitor now and I am willing to move to Ireland in the near future. Is anybody there in a similar situation? I mean,  qualified Solicitor from another EU State moving to Ireland? Thank you !


----------



## nickis

WOW! I completed my 2.1 BL Degree in 2004 and finished the FE1s and Irish exam in June, am living in Lodon now - doing a job totally unrelated to law - and had planned on sending out some cvs over the next couple of weeks intending to be in Blackhall by October - from what has been posted i see this is actually incredibly unrealistic! Thing is though I worked as a legal secretary in a law firm for 1 1/2 years (while doing the fe1s) and to be honest - I am in no rush to go back to that environment. I love my new job, the people are so nice and not ego-maniacs like most solicitors (and I work in Mayfair - THE poshest area of London). I kno i would make more money as a qualified solicitor but my new employers have started me off on €35,000 and i quiet enjoy not feeling like a piece of dirt! would I be a fool to walk away from it all now???? How do we feel about LLMs? I was offered the LLM in UCC but turned it down on the advice of a solicitor (whose opinion i really would trust) in my old office who told me they're a waste of time really as employers judge you mainly on your degree. I always preferred the academic side of law so I still havent ruled out the idea of doing one... God - I thought I'd be Alley McBeal by now - damn american tv- makes it look a lot more straight-forward!!!!! Im really glad i found this site - its nice to know im not the only one having difficulties. Good luck everyone!!! Nicki


----------



## lawgrad07

Hi all,

I am currently studying for an LLM having completed my law degree last year graduating with a 1.1. I know it is early in theyear to be applying for apprenticeship positions (or is it?) so I was wondering what are the advantages of applying for an internship position in the meantime. Will significantly it increase my chances of success when it comes to getting an apprenticeship position? Also, what is the competition like for internships? Not as bad as apprenticeships I hope!! I am also worried as I have no work experience in the legal field- the only experience I have is 5/6 years waitressing/bartending. Will they look down their nose at that? 

Any advice would be much appreciated

Thanks


----------



## Stronge

Can anyone recommend a revision course for the FEI exam in Oct.  I believe Stanhope Street course is not longer on,


----------



## Pulped

Hey Stronge, the Griffith revision course starts in June as far as I know. It's very comprehensive though can be a bit pricey, seems to be well worth the investment though.

Lawgrad you would be well advised to apply for the internships. They are very competitive as far as I know but give you a good leg up in terms of being called for interview when It comes to applying for traineeships. The commercial firms won't be taking applications until October and most of those will be for 2010 starts. Work experience in the legal area is handy but not a must. As long as you can demonstrate academic ability and that you are a well rounded person then not having direct experience shouldn't be a problem; it wasn't for me anyway.


----------



## the twist

hey just wondering if anyone managed to get a traineeship or knows someone who did with either LK shields or BCM hanby Wallace.

Thanks


----------



## lam

Hey I don't know about LK Shields but my friend got one in BCM Hanby Wallace. They called her about two Fridays ago to tell her. She applied for the 2009 start though so it may be different for people who applied to start in 2008.


----------



## the twist

thanks Iam -

I couldnt trouble you for a bit more information
Has your friend been specifically told that she will start in 2009?

Just have heard that BCM made offers at all sorts of different times and recalled some people for interview.

Just wanted to know what the story is there?


----------



## randomboy

lawgrad07 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I am currently studying for an LLM having completed my law degree last year graduating with a 1.1. I know it is early in theyear to be applying for apprenticeship positions (or is it?) so I was wondering what are the advantages of applying for an internship position in the meantime. Will significantly it increase my chances of success when it comes to getting an apprenticeship position? Also, what is the competition like for internships? Not as bad as apprenticeships I hope!! I am also worried as I have no work experience in the legal field- the only experience I have is 5/6 years waitressing/bartending. Will they look down their nose at that?
> 
> Any advice would be much appreciated
> 
> Thanks



 Internships are fiercly competitive and very hard to secure if there is a formal applicaiton process. A lot don't do it formally and will take on those recommended or put forward by those working in the firm. A lot of the larger firms will offer some interns an apprenticeship if they have been impressed with them, MOP especially like to do this. So it definitely helps with an apprenticeship in that regard.  I had no experience in the legal field either, internship or otherwise. This didn't seem to be too much of a worry as I got some offers. I explained that to pay for college I couldn't take a non-paying internship during the summer. My results showed that I had a dedication to being a lawyer.  Regarding your other work experience just make sure you can explain how they benefited you in the real world and how this potentially might transfer to a firm e.g. working under pressure, dealing with irate people, working as a team. Most firms will be impressed if you've worked while in college and still achieved good results.


----------



## lam

As far as I know she's been offered an apprenticeship 2009 but she has to pass all her Blackhall entrance exams in the meantime. (We're in final year law so haven't done any of them yet.) I know BCM take people on at different times and I think they'll still be looking for more trainees for 2009 next year, they don't just take them all on in one big slot. She's just waiting for her contract to be sent down to her and they mentioned bringing her in again to everyone who got through the interview process-you know to start the group bonding! 
I personally also went for the interview to BCM as well, I got through to the last stage where you make the presentation but didn't get it in the end. They never got back to me to tell me I didn't get through though, I just knew because my friend got the phone call and I didn't! 
I don't really know about people being called back in for other interviews. That might be for people who were trying to start in 2008 (because they were taking people on this year for 2008). 

Hope that helps in some way twist.
LAM


----------



## the twist

cheers Iam

Yes myself and my firiend attended the BCM interviews 

I was offered for 2008 and my friend has not heard back.

I recieved my phonecall about four weeks ago and gave in contract about 3 weeks. Just wanted to see what story was because friend has not heard back.

Also have not start date and just wanted to know has anyone confimred a start date with them yet.

Anyway cheers for the information-and good look with the apprenticship thing- if you got to second rounds without FE1s youb should be well set when you have all eight


----------



## randomboy

Just got my interview PFO from Hanby Wallace. Thanks, I would have never guessed.


----------



## SteJay

Hey guys Im in 3rd yr legal studies in w.i.t and hope to do the fe1s after this year.Was just wondering, do apprentice solicitors get paid during their apprenticeship?


----------



## dazza21ie

Yes. Trainees are entitled to the National Minimum Wage if they work before the PPC1 Course. They are entitled to the Law Society Minimum Wage after PPC 1 and again after PPC 2 (increases after PPC2). If you work in the office before PPC 1 or are lucky to get an apprenticeship with one of the big firms you will also get paid while on the PPC1 & PPC2 courses.


----------



## simbafaisal

*FE1 without LLB*

Hai i want to become a solicitor,i have my graduation degree,is it possible for me to do FE1 directley and will be a solicitor,and if yes then what will be the differece between me and LLB Solicitor.Thnx


----------



## SteJay

Thanks for the info dazza.This post will be deleted if not edited immediately its some hassle to be a qualified solicitor in Ireland I think ill just head to america and do the new york bar supposedly you can be qualified as a solicitor in america within 6 months of passing the bar!


----------



## Paddy1000

Hey,

I am doing the FE1s in the autumn (4) and 4 spring 2009. Is it possible to begin an internship in 2009? Are firms hiring at all or is it only for 2010?


----------



## Pulped

The big firms have taken on most of their 2009 intake at this point. The next round of recruitment will be October-January and will be for 2010 starts though they always seem to have one or two places for sooner starts. The medium size firms seem to hire people for more immediate starts and for small firms it seems to be a case of whenever you can start really.


----------



## randomboy

I got my offers from the big 5 in 2008 and they said I could start in september 2008. So if you apply later this year you may be able to start in 2009.


----------



## Stronge

I am hoping to do all eight FE1s in Sept/Oct next is that stupid or is it better to do 4 then and 4 next year.  I am starting a revision course next week and I will not be working so hopefully I will get a good bit og study done in the next 4 months  most of the people I talk to seem to think I am taking on too much and I may fail all of them! Anyone got any opinions?


----------



## dazza21ie

Was told i was mad when i done all 8 in one go. It has become so common for people to do 4 and 4 that anyone who does anything different is told they are mad. I think people who only do four first time round are taking a bigger chance because if the first exam doesn't go well they are under alot of pressure. 
The hardest part i found when doing the eight exams was that you become physically exhausted by the end of the week and the third exam in a week is the real killer. If you are really prepared and have a bit of luck then you could do very well. 
Hope all goes well for you.


----------



## ellieg82

stronge have you studied law before? if not, i would really recommend splitting exams between two sittings, afterall the earliest you can start in blackhall will be october 09! why kill yourself, do not underestimate the amount of work that is necessary to pass these exams...

luckily i've just passed the last of them, but unfortunately getting a traineeship for october 08 blackhall looks increasingly unlikely....earliest i'll be in will be october 09 now

be prepared for the long haul with the fe1 route...hopefully its gonna be worth it


----------



## ajapale

*Re: Legal apprenticeship:*



Stronge said:


> I am hoping to do all eight FE1s in Sept/Oct next is that stupid or is it better to do 4 then and 4 next year.  I am starting a revision course next week and I will not be working so hopefully I will get a good bit og study done in the next 4 months  most of the people I talk to seem to think I am taking on too much and I may fail all of them! Anyone got any opinions?



Discussion surrounding the FE1 exam (or any other examination) is discouraged on AAM.

I think there was a google group set up by FE1ers last year for this purpose.

Please keep this thread on topic. "*tips on trying to find a trainee solicitor job"

* 
ajapale
(moderator)


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Does anyone think i'm still in with a chance of getting an apprenticeship for this year? As in being in B'hall for this Sept? I've an hons business degree, a couple of legal diplomas, all FE1 exams and have been working in law offices for the past year and a half - but should I keep sending out CV's or just wait until 2009?  At this stage - i'll take any kind of apprenticeship as i'm worried about meeting potential employers next year and they ask me why I haven't been hired for an apprenticeship in the last two years - any advice? please!


----------



## dazza21ie

I think you should keep trying. Apprenticeships are always hard to come by but even more so these days. However you never know what is happening internally in a legal office. I got my apprenticeship because of a partnership break-up. 
Don't just send in CV's without putting any thought into it. Do a bit of research on the areas the firm practices in and try and incorporate that into your covering letter. 
Its also worth considering applying for jobs as legal secretary/executive. They will know what your up to and that your really looking for an apprenticeship but some offices will take you on with the condition that you work a year before going to PPC1. They get cheap labour and you get a well earned apprenticeship.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Cheers thanks - I have the law directory on standby so I always try to send it to the managing partner or at least for his attention.  As for knowing that the firm does, it's pretty hard as i'm emailing firms who have only one or two solicitors in them so I can only assume it's criminal, civil, conveyancing, etc.  I've worked as a paralegal in Criminal law for a good while and now i'm doing legal sec for an even longer while in one of the top firms but it's so hard to get a paralegal job when there's fe1's on a CV.  Half tempted to pack it all in as i've worked so hard to get a commercial firm and that hasn't happened and now I can't get any firm whatsoever and the thoughts of 2009 is bad enough but having to explain why I didn't get an apprenticeship for neither 2007 nor 2008 is absolutely daunting! Could've gone in for 2007 but thought i'd take the year out and work on the CV and as for 2008 - the competition is so hard coupled with the fact that I probably come across very uptight and serious in interviews as i'm so stressed over it all! Of course thinking of what to do other than law is also stressful! So i'd love to be able to find an apprenticeship and just keep at it but there's only so much spamming that can be done!  

Should I mention in my cover letter that i'd be more than willing to pay for Blackhall and for myself while i'm there?  

Should I even say that i'd wait until 2009 if I could work as a legal exec in their office? OR am I giving them too many ultimatums as such??  As you can see - i've no idea what to do!!!! 

Also - i don't care at this stage where I do my app'ship - so i'm not even being fussy any more!!!


----------



## dazza21ie

Unless you get into one of the bigger firms you will more than likely have to cover the fees for Blackhall yourself as smaller offices don't usually pay these for you so i wouldn't bother mentioning it at this stage. 
Most firms have websites now so worth having a look at that before sending the CV. Google the firm name and you should be able to find the website.
Your not the only one out there who hasn't got an apprenticeship straight away so i don't think this will be held against you. At least you are showing that you are still trying and gaining relevant experience.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Cheers for the advice re fees - didn't know whether i'd be covering obvious ground or not.

As for websites - some firms don't even have e-mails (as per the Law Soc website and the Directory) so it's pretty hard to figure it out but I do try to mention something firm specific when I can.

As for not being the only one - who hasn't gotten an app'ship - I know, it's just frustrating and somewhat cringe-worthy when i've had all my exams since Dec 2006! And I see people without even having passed all their fe1's securing app'ships. I just think at this stage i've gone wrong somewhere along the line either with the way i've gone about things or perhaps i'm not seen as "solicitor" material in interviews - rather not conducive to my chosen career!! 

Have you heard of people getting app'ships at this time of year or later right before B'hall?  I guess i'm thinking of my own friends and they all had theirs organised practically in college! 

Thanks again for writing back !


----------



## dazza21ie

I am from the country so i am more familar with country practices and hiring trainees is a all year round thing there is no set time for taking someone on unlike the bigger firms in Dublin. I am an optimist so i would say keep trying.
There are a few different legal websites like [broken link removed] and www.legal.ie that might have more info about practices that the directory or law society website.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

ah - I see what you mean! I'm from the country too! Just up here as it's next to near possible to get any legal experience at home - right so - moral of the story so is to keep trying! 

Thanks a mill!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Hi,

I've a new question: hopefully still in line with this thread.

Which would be a good idea to do AITI exams so as to bump up my CV and make it more attractive to law firms so as to get an apprenticeship??  Or would they be a complete turn off for small firms ?  I've realised that i'm not going into blackhall this year (again) and need to have something to explain to potential interviewers why i'm not there - can't blame the credit crunch for everything!!  Thanks.


----------



## Trafford

Irishlawgirl, it sounds like you gave up after all, or have you had any luck since in finding an apprenticeship?


----------



## job hunt

send cvs to all top twenty law firms in September- they pay fees.


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## Irishlawgirl

Trafford: Give up?! I wish I could - I've invested too much time and money to get only this far plus the fact that I actually law for the subject that it is and not other motivating factors which come with the career. I'm just bored senseless doing my job as i've reached a point where i'm no longer learning anything new and i'm worried about interviews next year-in that firms will ask what have done since having my fe1's passed in Dec 06!   

Sooo i've just gotten the ICSA Co-Sec books to study and will do those exams in Nov (well at least one out the four) but now i'm worried that i'll have no co-sec experience that it mightn't mean a thing that i've gotten the exams but have no experience.

I am withered!!!!

As for Job Hunt - my advice would be send cv's to all top twenty - and then every other single firm out there!!!


----------



## Wilky

Slight change of subject. I have heard that in N.Ireland many law grads who have got a place at the Institute of Prof Legal Studies cannot get a training contract and therefore cannot take up their place at the Institute. It is apparently due to the economic slow-down and the fact that solicitors just do not want to take on more staff.

Has anyone else been made aware of this?


----------



## ccbkd

It is almost impossible now to get apprenticeships in any Legal firm due to the unprecedented numbers coming out of Blackhall and the economic slowdown the legal profession is almost as hard hit as the construction industry!


----------



## camarilla

Hi,

Can someone tell me where to find a list of top ten firms please on the internet.


----------



## Artois

Hi 

It seems to be the same people who found it very difficult to get an apprenticeship pre-Blackhall that are now also finding it very difficult to get a job and keep that job as qualified Solicitors.

Some of my friends recently QUALIFIED TO BECOME UNEMPLOYED. Essentially as an apprentice you do not cost a whole pile to employ however, once you qualify you become an easy target for the chop. 

This industry is not all bad but at the moment if I was starting out again i'd be looking elsewhere. There is simply a colossal over supply at the moment and initiatives such as PIAB, PRTB and other redress boards are all designed to reduce the number of lawyers required.


----------



## Kate10

Not to depress anyone further, but I think a lot of trainees and law grads have a completely unrealistic view of the work involved. Frankly, it's a slog. 

If you work in GP a lot of the work is repetitive and unrewarding. Conveyancing fees are at rock bottom, barely covering costs levels, which means you have a full day of hard slog, every day, and you are not producing anything spectacular. Maintaining good relationships with clients is hard work, as new clients will be suspicious of everything you do/suggest until you win their trust. This is very disheartening.

Litigation and commercial work are more interesting, but there isn't a whole lot of it around. Commercial clients expect instant turnaround, and 24 hour a day, 7 day a week availability.

There are good days of course, when you win a case, or settle something very well. Or when you feel that your intervention made a difference for someone. Or when you come up with a great new idea, or notice a trap in documentation that someone else missed. 

Ultimately though, it is a high pressure job, involving a lot of grunt work.

So! You still want it? Ok. To get a traineeship you need to be useful. You may think you're cheap labour but you're not. Unless you have a particular skill, you are an extra body in the office, and you are much less help than an average secretary. 

What would I look for in a trainee? 
(i)  First of all, decent results. The big practices will expect at least a 2.1 and I could live with a 2.2 but the rest of the CV would have to be very good. 
(ii) Relevant work experience & great references from that experience.  Get work experience in a solicitors office if you can. Work for free if that's what it takes. Leave your ego at the door. Be prepared to do anything that comes your way in the office and be prepared to do it well! Use your brain! Never take the easy way out and always think ahead for every eventuality.
(iii)   Balanced personality.  I want someone clever that clients will warm to.  Someone who has a social life.
(iv)    Perfect presentation of cv.  I don't want a generic cover letter on crappy paper with an equally lazy cv.  

That's it!  Good luck everyone!

Kate.


----------



## ellieg82

I apologise, in advance, for the rant which follows...

I just wish to add that finding that relevant wrk experience is becoming increasingly more difficult. I have all 8 exams since April, tried my level best to get a traineeship to get into Blackhall this Oct but failed to do so as by that stage most firms had taken on their apprentice if they were going to take one on. (I did, however, get plenty of encouragement to come back to them for next year, which I will) 

I was, at that same time, trying to secure a job which would add to my legal experience on the off-chance that I would not secure an apprenticeship on time. In this however, I have also failed thus far. In my experience, the competition for legal assistant and legal administrator jobs is fierce. Hundreds of applicants, I always seem to get shortlisted but still, far too many interviewed for what is normally one admin position. The interview almost always involves a lengthy discussion about the sheer volume of applicants, and their astonishment at the calibre of same, and their fears for all the trainees coming on-line. Its shocking, and generally a v disheartening experience. 

I get to give the apprenticeship search a proper run this year, if it doesn't work out i don't know what i'm gonna do...


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Can't believe it's September and i'm waiting AGAIN... (i've had fe1's since Dec 06) and have been working in a top law firm since and i'm withered!! Anyway, putting the question out there - when is the best time to send out the CV's?  And to whom? Should it be to the managing partner of firms if they've no HR. I've just done every route so far and nothing stood out to me nor I to them so I'm just going to start from scratch.. before I leave law altogher!


----------



## ellieg82

Irishlawyergirl, you're in one of the top firms and that hasn't opened doors, i thought working there would at least help?!

all the big firms seem to close applications end of october or end of first wk in november. so its certainly time to get working on that. 

i'm gonna send all my CV's out soon enough to be honest, november certainly seems to be the time. this is my first time going for it, only got my exams in april, odds were stacked against me for getting into blackhall 08 at that stage...god i better get one cos i'm bored silly!


----------



## LB25

Can I ask, is everyone out there who is looking for an apprenticeship 100% sure that being a solicitor is the right job for them long term? I am in my second year looking, I have alot of legal experience because the more experience you have the more you get, like a rollover effect. I'm confident that I will get something this year but I am worried because alot of the time I  have doubts that the lifestyle, the long hours, the stress, the long training period will suit me. I'm 28 and feel I am too old to go into something that I am unsure of, however I don't have many other realistic options. 
Can anyone tell me, is it normal to have doubts in such a competitive industry?
Or can anyone who is already a solicitor give me some plus points to the job? 
Friends who have qualified do nothing but moan and don't sell it very well!


----------



## wildcat1

There's an ad up on the law society website for a trainee solicitor in a dublin firm. Hope someone here gets it, best of luck!


----------



## ellieg82

i was interviewed for that very position this morning...all my fingers and toes r crossed...


----------



## NMC

I was just looking at your posts from '06'. Im now recently qualified and I have to say, I identify so much with what was said by SNB and Mallow!! I would advise against pursuing a career in law, but my advice its probably too late!!!

I have a brother doing Civil Eng and 2 sisters doing pharmacy. The wage difference is astronomical. I like the career well enough, but at the end of the day, you have to get paid. You have to live. Quite frankly it just wasnt worth it. I did apprenticeship in a rural firm, had to pay my own fees and was paid the Law Society recomended rate. Not the worst deal in the world, but was very far from the best. I have under three months left in job and i now have to try and find a job elsewhere. Given current economic climate I dont know whats going to happen. Two friends, one colleague, recently signed on for the dole. Bankers/property developers ****ed it all up. I hate to sound like a socialist but we really did get screwed by the establishment.

Tired, disillusioned, demoralised and for the first time in 2 and 1/2 years of work, HUNGOVER!!


----------



## ellieg82

Hey guys, 

I was just wondering, what are interviews with the top 5 actually like?

Do they test your legal knowledge?? 

Would reading the gazette be of any value?? 

I'd really appreciate if someone who has done an interview with any of the big five could give me a few pointers...just wondering what they involve and what I should be doing! 

Elaine


----------



## bren1916

Hi Elaine,

I worked for a top 5 firm for a few years and I can tell you that if you were not educated at Trinity or UCD then your chances of an apprenticeship verged on negligible.

Bets of Luck,

Bren.


----------



## wildcat1

Hey Elaine I had interviews with some of the big 5 last year, they were pretty informal and they asked no legal type questions. 

They were more interested in the company I had worked for previously and what I thought made it so successful. 

Most of the interview is based on the information you provide in the application form, you're expected to elaborate on that. You should be able to say why you have chosen a career as a solicitor and why corporate law in particular. They might ask if you have any idea what practice area you want to go into. You should be aware of any deals the firm has been involved in.

At the end they ask a few current affairs questions. For eg. I was asked what I thought about the American elections and other people were asked something about whatever political scandal was going on in Ireland at the time.

I did the Carr Communications interview preparation course beforehand and I would definitly recommend it. The more prepared you are for the interviews the more confident you'll appear and that is a huge advantage.  

That said I think you should still keep up to date with whatever is happening in the legal world. I've heard that some of the medium sized firms do ask very specific legal questions so if you are going for interviews with them you will more than likely be tested on your legal knowledge.

Best of luck!


----------



## legallady

I would like to reiterate what the above poster said. It's very important to be aware of whats happening in the world so read the Irish Times for a few days before the interview if you dont already do so. Also, I didnt know of this when I did the interviews as I was just a young thing up from the country, but I would say grooming is very important. And no, I dont mean just your usual looking smart for an interview. Go get a manicure and your hair blow dried that day. And borrow some pearls. I am not joking, btw!


----------



## ellieg82

Thanks for the info wildcat and legal lady, very helpful indeed!


----------



## Gooner1

Just Wondering if it would be better to be honest and say you have no previous legal work experience in your cv or would it be better to skip over it and try to find skills from other jobs however inappropriate they might seem


----------



## legallady

Just put down what you have done and highlight the skills you do have. Dont state that you have no legal experience - that will be obvious from the cv. dont lie in the interview if they ask if you have any legal experience. I had none when I went for my apprenticeship, but loads of skills picked up in other lines of work


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Hey,

Just wondering - apart from the top ten that are all requiring application forms to be filled in, etc. what's the time frame for the rest of the firms? Are people "Spamming" them in November or when? This is perhaps my second year in a row doing this and I just can't even remember what I did last year (either way, it didn't work!!).

Thanks


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Just to FYI people - Arthur Cox sent out their group interview letters on Wednesday - has anyone heard from the other firms? I think the Beauchamps website was down for the last two days - they'd an application to download off it I think.


----------



## europhile

A lot of the big law companies are making swingeing cutbacks.  Letting staff go, axeing annual bonuses, etc.


----------



## ellieg82

yeh i got a pfo from arthur cox, gutted :-( 

first of many i'd say. 

this is demoralising


----------



## ellieg82

europhile said:


> A lot of the big law companies are making swingeing cutbacks.  Letting staff go, axeing annual bonuses, etc.



yeh o'donnell sweeney let ppl go, now their traineeship application deadline has been pushed back, i'd say they'll not be taking many, if any, now. 

lk shields also told their existing trainees they could continue on no pay or go seek to continue their trainieeship elsewhere, so guessing they're not gonna be taking anyone.....

oh my god, what have i gotten myself into here


----------



## europhile

It's all about maximising profits.


----------



## ellieg82

yeh but lk shields is surprising, larry shields was head of the law society i think, he would be very much trainee and education orientated...

i timed finishing my fe1's to perfection didn't i...

typical


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Does anyone know of any good interview preparation books that would help in apprenticeship interviews? I know it's about selling yourself but any help would be appreciated - thanks (all I see out there are for manager interviews, etc).


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Anyone know what the Arthur Cox group interviews are like? What questions are being asked? Is it best to try answer all the questions?


----------



## mf1

europhile said:


> It's all about maximising profits.



I'm afraid its much more a question of minimising losses currently. Work has quite simply dried up. No work means no income. Bills still have to be paid. Result: cut your costs. 

mf


----------



## Irishlawgirl

McCann Fitz sent out their PFO's yesterday via e-mail - got mine...wonderful! Did the Arthur Cox group interview... soo hard! Everyone talked so much I forgot what the question was a few times... again, wonderful! Seriously looking into changing careers if I don't get a "good" app'ship at this stage -  anyone else thinking of this route or am I being dramatic?! Working as a paralegal in a top 4 firm, all fe1's passed, got a few extra bits and pieces on my CV but... not much good to me if I don't get a app'ship.


----------



## dazza21ie

Irishlawgirl said:


> McCann Fitz sent out their PFO's yesterday via e-mail - got mine...wonderful! Did the Arthur Cox group interview... soo hard! Everyone talked so much I forgot what the question was a few times... again, wonderful! Seriously looking into changing careers *if I don't get a "good" app'ship at this stage* - anyone else thinking of this route or am I being dramatic?! Working as a paralegal in a top 4 firm, all fe1's passed, got a few extra bits and pieces on my CV but... not much good to me if I don't get a app'ship.


 
What would you consider to be "a good app'ship"? I know quite a few looking at present for "any" apprenticeship and some of them are willing to work for nothing which makes it harder for the competition.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

I think a year ago I would've taken the "any" app'ship at all in any area of law and in any place in Ireland. Now though, i've decided that I just want to do corporate (doesn't have to be top 10 or anything) because I've done *everything *imaginable to get my CV up to scratch - all Fe1's, two diplomas in the law soc (came in v. high in one of them), working as a paralegal in one of the top four firms (which is such hard work - but I love it) and i'm doing more study on top of all this for another qualification - so at this stage, I know what kind of law I want to do, I think i've more than proved my ability (and I don't mean that to be sound arrogant when I say that but some people secure great app'ships while not even having all the fe1's or any experience) so I think i'm going for an all or nothing approach at the moment. Sometimes there's a problem when you know exactly what you want! The thoughts of being paid minimum wage, paying for b'hall, and not doing the law I've been working with for over a year now is not good! I'd rather choose an entirely different career at this stage.


----------



## dazza21ie

It's very difficult to change from one area of law to another e.g. if you want to be a commercial lawyer there is no point in starting in a General Practice because it is very hard to transfer over. So if you are sure you want to do commercial work then your right to hold out for that type of apprenticeship. Hope all works out for you.


----------



## LDGantly

yeh...same boat as yourself...had a.cox group interview..v.hard to know what they're looking for/how i did. Got McCannFitz pfo yesturday...disgusted...that was my first rejection.. (the first of many im sure...by the looks of it) because this is my first year applying...what do they want??!! (i dont want to sound arrogant..im not...but i think if you have a first you should at least get a chance at an interview...i know another guy with a first who got a pfo from them...and ill be in college tomorrow to find out who else did...because if they dont even want to interview people with firsts...then they must not be taking anyone on at all--ie--credit crunch has bit them....things are not looking good)...im getting very depressed/stressed out over the whole apprenticeship thing and ive only been applying for a month!!! its just that i have all my hopes on getting into a corporate firm....ive worked soooo hard for it...and corporate is ALL i want to do.....but couldnt really be entering market at a worse time!!!...things suck at the mo......; and to be honest...expecting pfo from a.cox too....aaah well...maybe ill just be a bus driver...always liked buses!!! does anyone know when the other firms are supposed to start getting to people??


----------



## LDGantly

Irishlawgirl said:


> McCann Fitz sent out their PFO's yesterday via e-mail - got mine...wonderful! Did the Arthur Cox group interview... soo hard! Everyone talked so much I forgot what the question was a few times... again, wonderful! Seriously looking into changing careers if I don't get a "good" app'ship at this stage - anyone else thinking of this route or am I being dramatic?! Working as a paralegal in a top 4 firm, all fe1's passed, got a few extra bits and pieces on my CV but... not much good to me if I don't get a app'ship.


 

yeh...same boat as yourself...had a.cox group interview..v.hard to know what they're looking for/how i did. Got McCannFitz pfo yesturday...disgusted...that was my first rejection.. (the first of many im sure...by the looks of it) because this is my first year applying...what do they want??!! (i dont want to sound arrogant..im not...but i think if you have a first you should at least get a chance at an interview...i know another guy with a first who got a pfo from them...and ill be in college tomorrow to find out who else did...because if they dont even want to interview people with firsts...then they must not be taking anyone on at all--ie--credit crunch has bit them....things are not looking good)...im getting very depressed/stressed out over the whole apprenticeship thing and ive only been applying for a month!!! its just that i have all my hopes on getting into a corporate firm....ive worked soooo hard for it...and corporate is ALL i want to do.....but couldnt really be entering market at a worse time!!!...things suck at the mo......; and to be honest...expecting pfo from a.cox too....aaah well...maybe ill just be a bus driver...always liked buses!!! does anyone know when the other firms are supposed to start getting to people??


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## lawhead1

And I thought I was alone! Got a first in corporate law and top place in my year and have loads of extra cirricular activities yet I got pfo from mccann fitz........seriously what are they looking for??????? please tell me! also had group interview from arthur cox but it seems like everyone I know got one of these so it just adds to stress of waiting to see if il get a individual interview for any firm! nervous times


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## LDGantly

lawhead1 said:


> And I thought I was alone! Got a first in corporate law and top place in my year and have loads of extra cirricular activities yet I got pfo from mccann fitz........seriously what are they looking for??????? please tell me! also had group interview from arthur cox but it seems like everyone I know got one of these so it just adds to stress of waiting to see if il get a individual interview for any firm! nervous times


 
yeh---did corp law too-got the 1st--plenty of extra-cirricular stuff---dont know what they want--they must not be taking anybody on at all---good to know theres more like me out there!! group interview for a.cox---i thought they invited loads of people to that--but only 250--and inviting 100 to individual interiew---hope the 250 makes you feel better...cuz i thought it was around 400


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## Irishlawgirl

only 250 to A Cox interviews..??? Nah, I'd honestly say there were much more - they went on for ... was it 6 or 7 days? seeing 10 people at a time, and there around 4/5 slots of times to pick from - Just tormenting myself here doing the odds! 

As for all of ye above having 1st's ! I'd be raging! (don't have one myself) but have an amount of experience in a top four, other qualifications and I wasn't called - love to know what kind of person they have called!

As for hearing back from the other firms - haven't heard a thing - they really should detail it on their website when they will get back to people. 

The A C group interviews are gruelling I think - and I think it really depends on who else is in your group - i'd complete chatterboxes!


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## Jev

Been reading this thread for awhile but only registered now to post. With regard to the A.Cox interviews, there were only 5 days of interviews so at [10x5] a day x 5 days, that's 250.

I also got a group interview with A.Cox, seemed to go fine and everyone seemed to do pretty well. I assuming they have a rough idea of who they're taking prior to the group interview as it'd be extremely hard to decide on the basis of the interview, from what I experienced anyways...

Also got a rejection e-mail from McCanns, fairly annoyed until I spoke to people in college today and no one I know got an interview. The form was fairly short though, at least in comparison to other firms, so if they haven't based their choices results, I don't know what criteria they used?! The only undergrads I know that got interviews were interns from last year

Haven't heard from other firms but most said it would be December before informing people of their decision. Am fairly bricking it now thinking of what if I don't even get one or two interviews!


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## Irishlawgirl

ha! At least i'm not trying to be an accountant - my number skills may fall short! but think the interviews went on for 6 days. Either way, doesn't matter how many they interviewed, think you're right in that they've a pretty good idea who they want before the group interviews. I think all the big firms are cutting down this year - most firms last year took 30, AC I think took 40, but I wouldn't be surprised if they went back to taking 20-25 !  This is such a bad time of the year. Saying that, when I was applying last year, people said the exact same as it was all "sub-prime" crisis worries back then. There's no "we want LOADS of trainees" time but this has got to be the WORST year in a while for trying for an app'ship. I've only really this last shot in me at this stage - it's really a great way to go into interviews - nervous as hell as EVERYTHING depends on it! Ha! Let the good times roll on I guess!


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## LDGantly

Jev said:


> Been reading this thread for awhile but only registered now to post. With regard to the A.Cox interviews, there were only 5 days of interviews so at [10x5] a day x 5 days, that's 250.
> 
> I also got a group interview with A.Cox, seemed to go fine and everyone seemed to do pretty well. I assuming they have a rough idea of who they're taking prior to the group interview as it'd be extremely hard to decide on the basis of the interview, from what I experienced anyways...
> 
> Also got a rejection e-mail from McCanns, fairly annoyed until I spoke to people in college today and no one I know got an interview. The form was fairly short though, at least in comparison to other firms, so if they haven't based their choices results, I don't know what criteria they used?! The only undergrads I know that got interviews were interns from last year
> 
> Haven't heard from other firms but most said it would be December before informing people of their decision. Am fairly bricking it now thinking of what if I don't even get one or two interviews!


 
same here bud...i only reg yestruday!!..if they're one of the top 5 and are only interiewing people who interned there, disregarding people with firsts, lots of work experience like irishlawgirl etc...it really doesnt look good...who's to say other firms have'nt adopted a similar approach for this recruitment period?? im v.worried....thought after my results id get an interview at least...and McCanns, with their form being very academics-centred and not much else, neglecting to interview people with top academics is pretty disheartening, considering they're the first firm (after coxes) people are getting substantial replies from.....AAAAAARGHHH! nervous, nervous times..
yeh i thought so too re. coxes interview...at least i hope they have a fair idea of who to invite to individual stage prior to the group process....cuz i dont think you get a fair chance to show your personality (which is what it really is all about i think...) in 30 mins of talking about stuff that may not even interest you...ah well...guess we're about to find our


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## Irishlawgirl

Second round interview letters should be sent today from Cox's and either arrive tomor or Mon/Tues as first date for interviews is 27 Dec... so getting the letter on Monday 24 is tight tight tight! (as if anyone would care - only too happy to be called at this stage!!!).

As for McCann's not interviewing 1st class degree candidates or "relevant experience" - the mind boggles! 

When is the best time to start sending cv's to the rest of the world?


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## LDGantly

When is the best time to start sending cv's to the rest of the world?[/quote]


lol!! i was going to ask you the same thing!!??
yeh thats pretty tight....thanks for the info...now i wont be able to sleep...!!


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## Irishlawgirl

well i'm about as useful as a chocolate tea pot! I've had all my fe1's since 2006! Soooo clearlyl i'm doing something wrong!! I think it's case of luck! Isn't it dreadful, all this hard work and it comes down to timing and luck! And spamming... think i'll spam as of next February if nothing has come to fruition and I haven't left the legal world and jumped on a plane!


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## Kiki86

Hi everyone,
Just joined this thing and to be honest it is such a relief to discover that Im not the only one who is finding the whole legal career thing an absolute disaster. My friends and fellow law students left for Australia a few weeks ago in an attempt to ride out the recession but I thinking I was being sensible decided to stay at home for the time being to try and get an apprenticeship.Think iv made a huge mistake though considering that apprenticeships are few and far between!Last year i got to the single interview stage with arthur cox and following the group interview this year I am waiting with bated breath to see if i will get a single interview again this year.What are the chances of them wanting to interview me again tho?? The only thing I will say to those of you waiting to hear back from Arthur Cox is that they tend to hire ppl who are genuinely down to earth-atthis stage i think that that is all ive got going for me!!Hahaha!!
The whole thing is so disheartening and an ol PFO from Mcann fitz was like kicking a dog when its down!I should be panned out on Bondi beach-grr!!

Best of luck to anyone waiting to hear back from Arthur Cox


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## Irishlawgirl

I've never been so anxious to see if there's post for me in my life!! 

Kiki - think you were right not to go to Oz - when you're friends come back, be it a year or two later - the recession will be it's aftermath (hopefully) and everyone between now and then will be making themselves more marketable and employable by gaining experience or extra qualifications - we'd all love to jump on a plane but reality is - what's for them when they come back? Competition is just so hard for app'ships - having exams, experience and dedication mightn't even cut it anymore (however I would love to know of one person who got into McCann's just to know WHAT DOES CUT IT??!!). 

That's really bugging me! Not just for my own sake, but for the sake of curiosity as i've read that people with 1st's didn't get called for an interview. 

Soooo who's thinking of a career change?!?!?


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## LDGantly

Irishlawgirl said:


> I've never been so anxious to see if there's post for me in my life!!
> 
> Kiki - think you were right not to go to Oz - when you're friends come back, be it a year or two later - the recession will be it's aftermath (hopefully) and everyone between now and then will be making themselves more marketable and employable by gaining experience or extra qualifications - we'd all love to jump on a plane but reality is - what's for them when they come back? Competition is just so hard for app'ships - having exams, experience and dedication mightn't even cut it anymore (however I would love to know of one person who got into McCann's just to know WHAT DOES CUT IT??!!).
> 
> That's really bugging me! Not just for my own sake, but for the sake of curiosity as i've read that people with 1st's didn't get called for an interview.
> 
> Soooo who's thinking of a career change?!?!?


 
i was the same...waitin for the post like theres no tomorrow! got it.........but now even more anxious/scared!!! dont worry...whatever is meant to be is meant to be!!....and re Mccann Fitz...i would also love to know who got inteviews..good luck


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## seansc1

Got the second interview as well. Nervous stuff. Anyone got any advice on this one. How many do they interview? Supposedly I heard there are between 35-40 positions. That migth be a few less this year I would imagine.

Also is there actually anyone who got an interview with McCann's????

I don't know a single individual.


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## LDGantly

seansc1 said:


> Got the second interview as well. Nervous stuff. Anyone got any advice on this one. How many do they interview? Supposedly I heard there are between 35-40 positions. That migth be a few less this year I would imagine.
> 
> Also is there actually anyone who got an interview with McCann's????
> 
> I don't know a single individual.[/quote
> 
> congrats!...im nervous too....REALLY nervous AND i have postgrad exams in 2 weeks...interview prep must take priority! no i dont know anyone who got interview with McCanns either....weird...
> Tips??? are you joking? this is gonna be my first real interview!!...i heard they're interviewing around 100. i heard just to be as much yourself as you possibly can under the circumstrances..obvously have "examples of skills" answers prepared..but apart from that i dont really know bud...sorry...if you get any good advice during the weekend...plz post it up!!..will be much appreciated!


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## Jev

Agh, I'm in college but that letter is probably at home at I'm not finished here till 3!


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## Kiki86

Congrats to those who got the second interview! I got the second interview last year but obv didnt get offered the job. 
From my experience of the interview, the best piece of advice I can give is to be yourself!However, I now realise that the top firms basically want you to convey that you have wanted to be a solicitor since you were born!!Any doubt about that and they will write you off straight away so make sure to seem enthusiastic and passionate about life as a solicitor-tough i know!
I know Irishlawgirl, that staying at home was the best option.Going to Oz wud only leave me in debt and coming home in a years time,Id be in the exact same position as I am now!
Does anyone know when a&l, fry n mops tell you whether you got an interview-this waiting game is so frustrating!


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## LDGantly

Kiki86 said:


> Congrats to those who got the second interview! I got the second interview last year but obv didnt get offered the job.
> From my experience of the interview, the best piece of advice I can give is to be yourself!However, I now realise that the top firms basically want you to convey that you have wanted to be a solicitor since you were born!!Any doubt about that and they will write you off straight away so make sure to seem enthusiastic and passionate about life as a solicitor-tough i know!
> I know Irishlawgirl, that staying at home was the best option.Going to Oz wud only leave me in debt and coming home in a years time,Id be in the exact same position as I am now!
> Does anyone know when a&l, fry n mops tell you whether you got an interview-this waiting game is so frustrating!


 
thanks for the advice kiki..useful to know. i have utter respect for your decision not to go to oz...., im sure it was a tough one to make, but you made the right choice and dont worry, it will pay off at some stage.
re the other firms: from what i know...it will be early december before they start getting back to people. but i have had NO feedback (not even an acknowledgement of receipt of application form) from maples & calder..so kind of concerned about that...and yeh the waiting game totally sucks


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## Jev

In relation to Maples, no one has gotten anything back with regard to applications. Anyone I've spoken to is in the same boat, so that's not too bad...


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## Kiki86

God im loving this forum-its so comforting to see my exact thoughts being written down by lots of other people!I was considering emailing Maples and Calder today cos I was worried that they had not aknowledged my application but now I know that everyone is in the same boat!
To be honest I think that is quite rude-the least a law firm can do is sent an email, especially considering the time and effort put in to filling out those pesky application forms!

Has anyone seriously considered a career change and if so does anyone know what are the feasible options for a person with a degree and a masters?Just have become fed up with this whole thing and would seriously consider a different path if it meant that I could get started in the working world.This poor student lifestyle is not cool!
Thanks for your support LDGantly, it was a tough decision to make-I hate being the sensible one but after 4 years in college I feel like its time to get the ol' career on track!


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## Irishlawgirl

I did the second round interviews in Cox's last year - again to reiterate what a previous post said - it's all about having wanted this since being near pre-natal!! 

Slightly bitter here....

Re other firms, they should've sent some letters out by now. I know last year that i'd a letter from William Fry asking me for an interview before I'd gone for the AC second interview so perhaps that should be out soon. 

I think about changing career every day! If this doesn't work out - as in decent app'ship after all my hard work (sweat and tears!!) I will seriously consider leaving Ireland for a while. My cv is so "law" focused that I would consider long and hard re next move.

oh the thoughts of having to start at the rockiest bottom again is not inviting... neither is looking for an app'ship ever again!! 

Congrats to all those who got the 2nd round interview. Think AC would take on a max of 30 this year..at a push. They would interview around 100... I think i'm in pain with these odds!! 

Just imagine the relief getting in there?!!!!


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## Jev

I suppose its understandable if most firms don't want to take on candidates that don't show how much they want the position? 

It is pretty annoying about not having heard anything from Maples, but as KiKi said it's much better when you know everyone else is in the same position, this being especially true when I got the rejection e-mail from McCanns!

No letter for me from A.Cox here after all that wait, dunno if that means anything or if the post is just slow - especially annoying that I live a 10 minute walk from the offices!


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## LDGantly

Kiki86 said:


> God im loving this forum-its so comforting to see my exact thoughts being written down by lots of other people!I was considering emailing Maples and Calder today cos I was worried that they had not aknowledged my application but now I know that everyone is in the same boat!
> To be honest I think that is quite rude-the least a law firm can do is sent an email, especially considering the time and effort put in to filling out those pesky application forms!
> 
> Has anyone seriously considered a career change and if so does anyone know what are the feasible options for a person with a degree and a masters?Just have become fed up with this whole thing and would seriously consider a different path if it meant that I could get started in the working world.This poor student lifestyle is not cool!
> Thanks for your support LDGantly, it was a tough decision to make-I hate being the sensible one but after 4 years in college I feel like its time to get the ol' career on track!


 

yeh..its brilliant to know that everybody else is in the same boat...about as much comfort as one can get in these stressful times!!
no to be honest kiki, i havent considered it at all...i've had my heart set on corp law for way too long, this is my first year applying and im stilll in uni doing post grad so ill be plugging away no matter what happens  with interviews, for another few years anyway....i worked way too hard to give up...althogh i may not be saying that come end of january!!lol...just have to wait and see what happens


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## theo2008

Hi guys, thanks a million for all your input to this forum, the information is invaluable. 

Like all the rest of you, I got rejected by McCann Fitz even though I've gotten firsts in first and second year of college, and will hopefully do the same for my finals. Also, as part of my degree, I worked for 3 mths in MOP and 3 mths in WFry. So its a bit gutting to not even get called for interview. 

Anyway, had a group interview with AC, it went okay really but the everyone else was so good as well. Everyone had something useful to say about everything. I see some of you have gotten responses from AC about second interview. I've heard nothing but hopefully something will come Monday. I'm from Donegal so it usually takes two days for postage. 

I've heard nothing from Maples and Calder either and just got acknowledgments from everyone else.

I'll keep everyone posted on any developments for me, I hope you all continue to do the same. The waiting is just interminable! Good luck to all of you.


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## seansc1

If people have firsts in both years and the experience mentioned then there is obviously something up with McCann. Wouldn't worry about it. If you got an internship with MOP and WF then that will get you interviews with both of them. Best of luck with it.

Has anyone considered what they are going to say in the interviews? One question the constantly ask is why a solicitor and why  big firm. Any insightful answers to this question? e.g. keen interest in business, liked company law maybe??


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## froggie21

hey all. I got an interview with McCann Fitz so they must be still recruiting, also got 2nd interview with Arthur Cox... but have never done an interview before so dont know what to expect. has anyone done an individual interview with A.cox before???!! 

Also, I have no idea why I got interview with McCann and so many others didn't, Okay, academically speaking, I can see why I got a call-back as I got 600 points, have a first and came first in my year in my finals but that's not exactly groundbreaking stuff, there are people applying with 800 points, relevant work experience, masters and Fe1s all done and an interest in rugby and sailing to boot! I, on the other hand, don't have any Fe1s done and haven't done a masters yet so dunno what exactly they are looking for. 
As for Arthur Cox, was so surprised to hear back from them because I was totally myself and didn't brownnose them at all, had a bit of craic in the interview, made **** of a few yuppy head muppets and didn't tone down my lovely 100 mph kerry accent  everyone else in my group had a weird strangulated faux american/ south dublin accent and were brown-nosing their hearts out, talking about how "terribly haunting" the images in their favourite book were. blah blah felt like puking on some of them they were so affected. So thought I didn't stand a chance.
I am as confused as you all are about what they are looking for, but they seem to like it when people are themselves.


more importantly, tips for individual interviews anyone?


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## theo2008

Many congratulations froggie21 to getting those interviews! Good Luck! 

Did anyone get a letter today from A Cox saying they _haven_'t been called for second interview?


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## Kiki86

Hey Theo, from what I can gather for the process last year-Those who are successful in getting to the 2nd round are sent their letters first. The PfO's will arrive on monday!Think its a lousey way to do it-everyone should be informed on the first day cos its not fair to let people hanging!
Then again this whole apprenticeship thing is unfair

Froggie-one tip is to make sure you keep that kerry accent and make it stronger if you can!!Padraig O Riordan who is one of the managing partners is from Cork and seems to have an affiliation for Cork/Kerry people so if he ends up interviewing you, you may be in luck!
A guy who is currently training in arthur Cox told me that realistically the interviewer wants to determine whether he would get on with you on a day to day basis. Therefore, being a know-all with opinions that are too strong are not likely to be offered the position. Just be yourself, dont appear too antagonistic!

Good Luck

I just have one question, has anyone looked into qualifying as a lawyer abroad..say in OZ, Canada or Cayman Islands?I know it seems like a long haul but itd be worth it!!Any info would be welcome!


----------



## Jev

Kiki86 said:


> Hey Theo, from what I can gather for the process last year-Those who are successful in getting to the 2nd round are sent their letters first. The PfO's will arrive on monday!Think its a lousey way to do it-everyone should be informed on the first day cos its not fair to let people hanging!
> Then again this whole apprenticeship thing is unfair



I hope this isn't true! Have to wait til Monday to find out for definite, which is obviously annoying -  the one thing keeping my hopes up is that for the group interview letters one of the lads who lives near as well got his letter a day later than me. Thought the group interview went really well so fingers crossed, maybe it's just down to my application


----------



## europhile

froggie21 said:


> and an interest in rugby and sailing to boot



They mustn't get much of a cross-section of Irish society if that's what they're looking for.


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## ellieg82

hear hear, and what's more, if that's the only type of ppl you'll find in these firms I don't want a part of them.


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## lionel_hutz

Hi,

I've just found this thread and I'm in the middle of the application process too.

The whole process is an awful pain in the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language! Luckily, I did a couple of internships in the summer and got a couple of offers, but I'm sending around other application forms at the moment. Got a PFO from McCann's, but got second interview with AC, which I'm happy with.

I've seen Maples and Calder mentioned a few times on this thread. People, if you get an offer from any other firm in Ireland, do *NOT* join M&C (this sounds like a bitter rant from someone who interned there and didn't get the offer, but it's not). I'd be happy to explain why to anyone via Private Message, but don't want to get too specific on a public forum. By the way, I've heard a rumour that they pay trainees top Dublin salaries, and they mentioned at their Open Evening that they pay the most - this is *not* true. It's actually less than the Big 5 salaries, with the exception of MOP, which is the smallest.

Best of luck to everyone with the applications, interviews etc - hopefully we'll all get traineeships and then we can go back to drinking our way through our final year of college


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## LDGantly

lionel_hutz said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just found this thread and I'm in the middle of the application process too.
> 
> The whole process is an awful pain in the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language! Luckily, I did a couple of internships in the summer and got a couple of offers, but I'm sending around other application forms at the moment. Got a PFO from McCann's, but got second interview with AC, which I'm happy with.
> 
> I've seen Maples and Calder mentioned a few times on this thread. People, if you get an offer from any other firm in Ireland, do *NOT* join M&C (this sounds like a bitter rant from someone who interned there and didn't get the offer, but it's not). I'd be happy to explain why to anyone via Private Message, but don't want to get too specific on a public forum. By the way, I've heard a rumour that they pay trainees top Dublin salaries, and they mentioned at their Open Evening that they pay the most - this is *not* true. It's actually less than the Big 5 salaries, with the exception of MOP, which is the smallest.
> 
> Best of luck to everyone with the applications, interviews etc - hopefully we'll all get traineeships and then we can go back to drinking our way through our final year of college


 

heya could you please pm with your thoughts on M&C as id really love to know about your experience there....it would be much appreciated....thanx


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## LDGantly

fdsa


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## Mag

Just randomly googled solicitor apprenticeships and found this thread. Like everyone else I'm trying to find a traineeship. I'm in final BCL did an Erasmus Year, alright results some great some ok but the "regret blah blah" letters ave already started rolling in Anyhoo I went to my class advisor because I was completely discouraged by the whole thing and he recommended that I train how to be a solicitor in the UK. This is the website address http://www.college-of-law.co.uk/prospective-students/ , I'm considering it but if I got an apprenticeship here I'd stay.. Just thought it might be handy for anyone whos the same as me here.


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## Irishlawgirl

Panic ever so slightly kicking in re 2nd round interviews with AC! Didn't do great (thought I did better in them last year and got to the 2nd round in there that time) but this time I was just surrounded by extremely good candidates, or perhaps very talkative ones - which at the time seemed like they were great, but afterwards, upon replaying and replaying it all in my head, I thought, there was one or two comments that would not have gone in their favour.  I live in the city centre of Dublin... hmm delay delay delay!! Oh to get  a pfo would not be good!! At this stage, packing in law is becoming an option. Only thing right now i'd miss is the money - the stress of all this though is fast becoming not worth it.

Going to look up now training in another country. It annoys me that this is an option after what can be described as bloody hard work to get my CV to where it is now, I guess some people have it easy and others..  have it like me! (Sounding like a martyr but some friends of mine were handed GREAT app'ships!) I'm fighting tooth and nail for everything!! If I do get to an interview i'm very liable to rant!! or pass out with the stress!!!


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## Kiki86

Oh Irishlawgirl, I feel your pain but whatever you do do not doubt the great work you have done so far.We are just particularly unlucky that we want to enter the working world in these uncertain times-If we had graduated like 5 or 6 years earlier we'd be laughing!!
I totally get what you mean bout the stress of it too-found myself ranting to a random taxi driver on saturday nite about how much work I had put into the degree and masters and how I feel now like I shouldnt have bothered even doing my bloody leaving cert!!
It is so disheartening!Would you consider going abroad to become a lawyer n then doing the conversion exams?that is such a reality for me although Id be in huge debt since ,y parents could never afford to pay for it!Might be worth it in the long run!Feckin Top 5 firms have our confidence diminshed-GRRRRRRRRR


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## Irishlawgirl

ha!! I did graduate 4 years ago!! did FE1's -all finished since 2006, then been ploughing away getting good experience, further education (diplomas in the Law Soc) and hopefully another qualification by end of next year but.. you're right about the costs involved! I've racked up some debt in the last year - just being a brat really thinking i'd get an a'ship and i'll stop shopping so much!! .........didn't happen!! Wouldn't mind going to another country to qualify - I always maintained because i'd suffered doing the Fe1's that it would NEVER be an option but there's no point at all holding on to them at this stage if i'm not going to qualify ! 

Small firms (as in, the rest of Ireland!) are probaby not taking anyone on this year - i've rang one or two firms already that I met with last year and they said the very same thing - not this year (i.e. 2009 whatsoever!) so it is a question of pinning all the hopes on the biggies - McCann Fitz already starting the ball rolling with that one! Not! 

Saying that, the job i'm in, I could stay at it for another two years and still find it challenging and the perks are great - it's just i'd feel like I was failing myself somehow as all i've ever talked about was getting an app'ship but being a paralegal in a top 4 isn't bad at all but ahhhh!!! round and round in circles we go!!

I thought last year's climate was bad to get an a''ship - this is possibly the worst to date! 

Does anyone know where there is an "easier" country to qualify in - other than the UK?  The thoughts of how much it would cost are already giving me grief!!  I'd love Italy!!!!


----------



## Card

irishlawgirl
why won't the place you are in not take you on as an apprentice, 
Is there a reason
I'm just wondering whether other prospective offices might perhaps be asking why your current office won't take you on, (have good reply ready if they do)

keep trying and don't overlook any opportunity for getting your foot in the door anywhere


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## Irishlawgirl

well I went for the interviews last year - but  they didn't internally hire any of the paralegals - so if i'm asked again i'll just stick with that - they that don't internally hire the paralegals in here - which is bizarre as most of the biggies do that - I use the word bizarre - when aggravatingly annoying is more true!

I'm hoping to be called for interview again - but nothing is ever definite! 

I'm also hoping to have months off to do some travelling... ooh i'm getting too old for this stress!


----------



## Card

irishlawgirl, possibily then I would say that potential employers consider it an issue that your current employer won't take you on, I'm not trying to be negative here just trying to ensure that you have considered how other offices might consider the position, especially when they themselves might take on their legal exec's as apprentices, they may be wondering why your office hasn't done the same for you
all the best with your job hunt
(a good friend of mine struggled for ages to get an apprentice's position and found out about potential position from chatting to someone he was introduced to a social gathering worked out very well for him so fingers crosssed you'll be as lucky)


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## Irishlawgirl

Know what you're saying but if the firm doesn't want to internally hire I can do diddly ! William Fry never even asked me did my firm take me on - the trainee in the warm-up waiting room did!! Not a nice girl methinks!!! What a warm up - so you didn't an app'ship where you are eh??!! oooh I'll remember her name!!

Just want my housemates to go home and check the post!!! Ooh i'll be in some mood if I don't get to round two after doing it last year!! ha!! ooh the mood!!! 

However, perhaps it will be an incentive to spam the rest of Ireland. 

*Does anyone consider it to be too early to start spamming other firms? *


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## Jev

Irishlawgirl said:


> Just want my housemates to go home and check the post!!! Ooh i'll be in some mood if I don't get to round two after doing it last year!! ha!! ooh the mood!!!



I'm at home all day today as I've no lectures and I've been waiting on the post since this morning. It's usually here at 12 but at this stage it seems like there's nothing coming... still haven't heard of anyone that got a rejection letter so I'm kinda worried. Thought the interview went quite well so I really want to find out ASAP what the story is. I got to the interview stage for an internship last summer on the basis of my application which I was pleased with seen as most of my class didn't get that far, so as Irishlawgirl said, I'll be annoyed if I don't get it this year!

On that point, would anyone have an opinion on trying the internship route this summer if I don't get any interviews/contract offers?? As I'm just finishing college this summer, it seems like a viable option to get a foot in the door? In the A.Cox interviews last year for the internship, there were plenty of Masters students or candidates who had started their Fe1's


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## Irishlawgirl

The internship route always goes in people's favour but from what i've seen - it's generally people who are still in college that go for these - perhaps going for the whole lock stock and barrell would be more effective - i.e. a paralegal role in a firm? Three weeks is all well and good if you can get it, but it's going to be as hard as getting an a'ship -  just wouldn't bank on getting it so ensure you have back ups. 

We must be the most depressing / "it will go wrong" thread in this thing!!


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## theo2008

Well, I got nothing in the post today from A Cox so I obviously didn't get a second interview. They should really let people know much sooner though. The waiting is terrible and until I get a PFO, I'll still hold out hope!! 

Has anyone heard owt from other firms about interviews, rejections?


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## Spy

Hello, am new to posting but i have been following this thread with interest. i had my group interview in AC too (for the third year in a row!) and there was no post for me today  
Really disappointed this time, i thought i did really well in the interview but the lack of post says otherwise.

I'm guessing that this will be the first of many rejections, yet again..


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## Irishlawgirl

Third time?! Fair play! They must be interested in you - perhaps third time lucky??? Still in work - need to be at home to see what the post has to offer!! I'm just seeing people being made redundant left right and centre - this could NOT be a worse time looking for an a'ship! 

wish the other firms would hurry on - at least McCann fitz got on with things promptly - even if it was to PFO the majority of people it seems! What is taking them so long? Guess it doesn't really matter to the firms when they get their letters out - they're not interviewing until January. Oohhh to not be at the bottom of every ladder!! 

Keep trying to look up qualifying elsewhere but it's virtually impossible to find a link that says : this is how you qualify in this country! (perhaps it's to put people off!!!)


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## Jev

Spy said:


> Hello, am new to posting but i have been following this thread with interest. i had my group interview in AC too (for the third year in a row!) and there was no post for me today
> Really disappointed this time, i thought i did really well in the interview but the lack of post says otherwise.
> 
> I'm guessing that this will be the first of many rejections, yet again..



Did you ask AC what you fell down on in the last 2 years? I'm just waiting to get a confirmation of rejection and then I'll e-mail and ask because I thought I'd a good chance after the group interview and on my application


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## Spy

No I didn't ask them before mainly because I knew I didn't get it as soon as it was done. But once I do hear from them this time, I definitely will email. 

It is such a bad time to be trying to find an apprenticeship. It seems contacts will be crucial in the hunt nowadays not merit. 
There are so many stories of redundancies coming out of the law firms - almost all of my law friends are training now and most of them have been told that they will not have a job once they qualify or they had to take a severe pay cut. 

I really want to get an apprenticeship this year, I don't think I can afford another year of hanging around and not getting a career off the ground. 

Has anyone got suggestions on "Plan B"?


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## lawyer08

I have read the last number pages and feel bad for you all. I am 2 years qualified in a top 10 firm (and feeling very lucky!). At the time I had a decent choice of offers, but then the market was very different in 2003. 
However, I would offer the following as pointers:
- Make sure your CV/application forms are impeccable and CV is tailored to the firm. Double check spelling / grammar. When I was in my final year, I asked one of my lecturers to review my CV.
- Know what the firm does and the areas where each firm is a market leader. There are sites that specialise in this and rank law firms. eg. Chambers Europe website. 
- When you interview, if you are asked an impossible question, be ready. You do not need to know the answer, just a way of giving a sensiblewhile  response, remaining composed.
- You need to stand out from other candidates. You should have something on your CV that proves you are not just a book worm. They want rounded individuals to complement what they already have.

Good luck!


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## Irishlawgirl

Still haven't gotten any letter from AC ! Interviews start this Thursday in there! (they said in the grou interview last few days of this week and the first week of Dec) - the mind boggles!! 

Know that there is a paralegal in AC also waiting for a letter also - if experience and all the fe1's don't count for much nowadays - what does!

As for plan B? I think i'd need a wide bearth from law!! 

Question: Is it five years from when you have your first FE1 or your last that you have to secure an a'ship within! There's always debate on this and I need a straight answer as my time is either up in 2010  or 2011 ! (ahhh!! haven't even gone travelling!!)


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## Irishlawgirl

I could not be more unproductive at work today!  Have to keep thinking what the back up plan would be. I'm sick to my teeth worrying about this! 

Anyone thinking of considering contacting any of the firms to ask them about the timeframe? Think i'd give a false name!! Before they write "pushy!!!" beside my name!

I've heard pretty much all of Cork and Limerick won't be taking anyone on this year - it basically all lies in Dublin (I know there will be other small firms out there but i'd imagine they're already sown up by now).

doom doom doom!


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## Spy

Irishlawgirl, I'm not really sure what the answer to your question is. I think on every set of results they say that any exemptions earned are valid for five years. 
You should email the FE-1 section of the law society: fe1section@lawsociety.ie and get them to answer your question.


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## clueless247

I really feel for everyone on here, especially those of you who've been working towards it for years!! I just graduated this year with my law degree, did my first set of FE1s in Oct but I'm already pretty certain I'm gonna abandon it....I can't see any realistic chance of getting an a'ship this year or even next year. Considering most of the big firms hire a few years in advance, it would be years before I'd qualify even if things pick up in a few years. Loads of my friends are in the same position too and it's really frustrating after putting heart and soul into the FE1s right after our final exams.

I remember a Law Soc woman coming to talk to us in college last year about how just the Fe1s stood in the way of us and our a'ship...one of my friends asked her 'what if we cant find an apprenticeship?' and she was taken aback and just said 'well everyone gets one eventually' without actually telling us how long 'eventually' could be!! A lot of people I know are still in dreamworld thinking an a'ship will just fall into their laps but they don't read peoples experiences on here or even take a second to realise that firms just ain't hiring like they used to be.

I'm looking into doing primary or secondary teaching now, luckily I did some extra subjects with my law degree so I can pursue this....I know the situation isn't much better with those professions but I think I'll stand a better chance at least.


----------



## Spy

I really do think that anyone who is still looking for an apprenticeship would be foolish to hedge all their bets on getting on. While I sure some people will be successful, it would be prudent to have a plan B.

At the moment, I have 3 FE-1s to my name and I'm waiting on the results of the rest. I am going to finish them all off even if it kills me. I've spent too much time on them now just to abandon them. At least they are valid for five years so my plan is to keep applying in the hope that sometime in the next five years, success might come my way. 

that being said, once i've finished them, I plan to train up and get the professional qualification in my current job and if law doesn't work out, i'll have my back-up.


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## Irishlawgirl

ahh!!! the thoughts of a plan B !!! I'm withered!! I've spent four years since college doing FE1s and doing more exams on top of those and gaining great experience - which in itself was very hard to do - I could keep doing this if I knew i'd get some reward at some stage down the line... but sure - realistically, i'll wait and see if any of the biggies want to interview me - then send CV's out the rest of the world and then deal with plan B - in the grand scheme of things - i'm not in a bad position as i'm still learning loads with work. Hard thing is having invested so much *time and money* to get this far and not to qualify.


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## Irishlawgirl

Just emailed law soc re timeline for fe1's - realistically it must be from passing the final FE1 as some people would be at a tremendous disadvantage if it took them over two or three years to pass the fe1's and that does happen.

However, as with everything to do with ap'ships - this could be the final nail in the coffin !


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## Irishlawgirl

Don't want to be spamming this thread but FYI from the law soc:

"If you passed the FE-1's in November 2006 then you have five years from the December of that year to hold onto the 8 passes.  If this time lapses before you obtain indentures, then you will need to re-sit the examinations after that 5 years."


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## Lalala85

Does anyone know when William Fry, A & L and MOPs are handing out their letters re interviews. Didn't yet get a letter from Arthur Cox so guess that means I've not got a second interview...for the second year in a row!!!!


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## theo2008

I'd say the second week in December is when we'll hear from WF, A&L and MOP. Once anyone gets any response from them could they post it up here?

Didn't get any letter from A Cox today either - how rude.


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## Spy

No letter from Cox for me today either. Looks like it will be a hatrick of not getting a second interview. 

So it seems it you get five years from passing your first FE1s then? How mean! or am i picking this up wrong?


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## Irishlawgirl

*So it seems it you get five years from passing your first FE1s then? How mean! or am i picking this up wrong?[/quote] - *nope - it's from your last sitting of them. (some good news!)

can I ask - everyone who hasn't received a letter - did you sit the interview last week as opposed to having the interview in the first week (i.e. on 13 and 14 Nov)?


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## Jev

I definitely haven't received a letter, still at home but going into college soon -  I was on the first week (12th) of interviews.


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## Spy

oh that's some good news then. it would be too cruel otherwise. 
i did my interview on the 14th and still nothing.


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## Jev

Has anyone heard of anyone else getting a rejection letter yet??


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## Spy

no i haven't heard of anyone getting them but when you do the maths, the majority of people will get one. they are just making everyone wait.


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## Irishlawgirl

this  website is probably my only link to anyone doing these flaming things - am very grateful for everyone's input! 

Half tempted to fly home just in case!! Interviews are on in less than two days.. i'm guessing invitations to 2nd round interviews would all be out by today at the latest. 

boo.


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## Spy

I got someone to make a snoopy call to cox's about the letters. The girl said that they have more letters to send out today- although i suspect said letters are PFOs. 

the stalking of the postman will continue for the next few days though. i live in hope. 

this website is great. i'd probably crack up if i didn't have somewhere to vent.


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## Irishlawgirl

ha!! I just asked my friend to ring and ask the same thing!!!!!!


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## Spy

lol! Your friend should do it and see what they say and get the interview dates


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## lawhead1

cox interviews are on wednesday,thursday,friday this week and monday,tuesday,wednesday next week. seems that all offers were sent out and received last friday as quite a few people i know have been called back. I know that 4 people from by group interview have got a second round interview offer. im assuming that pfos will go out today but there may possibly be a second week of interviews as getting through 100 individual interviews lasting about 40mins each would be quite hard to do in just one week but i may be wrong. there is alot of confusion about cox and they are unfortunately being quite secretive about the whole affair!!


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## Irishlawgirl

I didn't get to round two...........

Oooohhhhh dear !!! What to do now!!  I've got a weak heart from all this waiting and disappointment.


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## Spy

Sorry to hear you didn't get it Irishlawgirl. did they tell you on the phone or did you finally get the letter?

thanks for the info Lawhead! did you get the second round? good luck if you did. 

has anybody applied to ODSE by the way? i haven't yet and i'm in two minds whether to bother or not


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## Irishlawgirl

I got a letter - think most will be out tomorrow though - I always get my post early for some reason (the joys!). 

ahh now everyone in work knows I didn't get as far as round two! great. If I hadn't so much to do (that i've put off since doing my interview cause I was so distracted - I'd go home!). 

I think i'll give myself until April - that seems like a lifetime away and if I don't get an app'ship by then - I may as well go travelling. I think once the fe1's and experience is under the belt - you can do no more. 

ahhh!!! I'm verging on giving up!!


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## Spy

well just see how it goes. you never know where your luck may lie! 
if i was you, i would go travelling - you've suffered too much of this nightmare. i think a holiday is well earned.


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## lawhead1

Doesnt look like it no letter yet, was dissappointed initally cos i have a 1.1, loads of extra cirricular activities and work experience but i think i talked way to much in my interview and did alot of disagreeing......stupid i know!!first ever interview though! but it seems they are interviewing a good spread of people as two of my friends with 2.1s got a call back and and then another one with first in her year in civil and a great personality didnt get through so it seems to be a bit of a lottery to a degree, thats why id much prefer individual interviews as its hard to convey an accurate representation of your personality in a large group like that with everyone just being as sweet as pie! and lawgirl dont give up, apply for things such as the washington ireland programe or internships in the US, or FLACs intern offer in america as things like that jump out much more than say a masters, the key is setting yourself apart from everyone else with unique experineces. Roll on the rest of the offers!!!


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## Irishlawgirl

ha !! I am just so bitter!! If I look at my CV - it's got "top of the class" recommendations and results, all fe1s (which is neither hear nor there in the standard race) but all sorts of other lovelies -  and it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. My CV stands out - I do not! ha! 

Any word on apprenticeships in Munster?? I heard Cork & Limerick are pretty sown up and full up. ahh what a climate to be looking for an app'ship!!!!


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## Jev

Was in college earlier and was talking to others who hadn't heard anything either, they all have fairly high standard CVs but then the general standard is extremely high as far as I could see. 

At this stage I've kinda lost hope but you never know! I'm definitely going to seek feedback anyways so I can learn from it, especially if I end up in the same position next year.


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## Irishlawgirl

sorry to be the bearer of bad news but pretty much everyone who got a 2nd round interview got their letters last Friday.


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## breeze84

Hey, I'm new to the big5 application adventure but I have an individual interview with AC coming up and was wondering if anyone would have any advice for this? What questions do they typically ask? And has anyone here been given feedback on interview performance from previous years?


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## Irishlawgirl

Hey Breeze - did the individual interview last year (didn't get that far this year) but it's very easy going and light-hearted however that's to put you at ease... don't be! Nah, it's not that bad but it's easier to slip up then. Prepare answers for why you did what you did i.e. did you go to private school, who's idea was that? Why did you chose your degree, were you happy with your results, what did you do in your spare time...(that one caught me..kept thinking..I drank!!) Hope this helps!


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## Kiki86

How about a PFO party??
K im gonna wait till the 2nd week of December to hear back from the other firms n then book a flight to Oz for the 3rd week of january-I figure all interviews will be dun and dusted by then. Hopefully I'll get a loan tho...I know it seems like a bailing out but just cant keep hanging out here waiting for rejection. all of us on this thread have done exactly as we should n thats still not gud enuf.I mean I didnt particlarly enjoy writing a thesis but I did it anyway cos thought twud look good on my cv-Ah well might as well have spent the year dossing for all the good it did me 

Im like you Irishlawgirl, travelling has always been in my plan provided I had my apprenticeship sorted but it just seems that now is the best time to go!


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## Spy

I finally got my PFO from Cox's. What do these people want? A kidney perhaps? I did my law degree, even went away for an exchange year to have that extra qualification, did an LLm - lots of legal experience, lots of extra curricular activities, - i'm even on a national squad (although an apprenticehip did not motivate me to go for the trials). i'm so disillusioned by it all. 

Kiki  - like the idea of a PFO party  I am the same about going travelling - my plan is to get sorted this yeay(pah!) and then go to Oz for the time in between. but i'm not giving up my job without knowing i'm coming back to a traineeship so i think that there will be no Oz next year, unless i grow a spare kidney 

Apologies for the rant.


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## Irishlawgirl

I'm guessing though kiki you were born in '86? I will be 27 next year so I think I won't be taking a year off traveling but will continue working so that I may buy a house and all that jazz! Soo ap'ship not this year - it's a possibility.. changing careers at this stage just seems mad!  It's not like the other jobs out there are demanding new recruits - no one is really looking for staff or newbies to their profession..


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## Irishlawgirl

~Spare Kidney ! I love it!

But i'm like Spy - I wouldn't leave this job to travel... and not to secure an a'ship. I have heard some horror stories lately where people, having secured an a'ship, went travelling only to receive a letter recently saying that they've revoked their contract.. that would be painful!


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## Mag

What about the people who are just ordinary though, with a 2.1 degree and no relevant experience (because noone would take them on no matter how much I tried!) What are we supposed to do with ourselves now?? I've tried a load of small firms but nothing there either, and competing with 1000's of people for limited traineeships is not going too well, so what now?? What was the point in all this!!! ... Damn these Receding Times!!!


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## Kiki86

Yup was born in 1986 but Im kinda older than my years and realistically would love to get the ball rolling-get a job, a house etc.And if I do go travelling it will be for 2 months max, defo not a year cos I couldnt justify bailing out and not taking my future into account. 
Just feel very down at the moment-all the feckin rejection and to be honest I feel that if I got an interview now I wouldnt do myself justice cos I'd automatically assume that I wouldnt get the job!Vicious Circle! 
Stoooooooopid Recession!
Has anyone heard of any former law classmates going down a different road than solicitor/barrister?would love to no what the alternatives are!
Spy, Im with you on the kidney selling!!


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## Kiki86

Mag, I know loads of people who have 2.1 degrees and no experience who have contracts with arthur Cox. Mops etc!So hard to tell what they're looking for, ud imagine that the person with a first class degree and bucketloads of experience would get the job but that not necessarily always the case!God I think my family are beginning to hate me now cos i keep ranting about law firms and apprenticeships!beginning to bore myself a little too!!


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## Spy

i know a friend of mine decided to go down the tax consultancy route. alternatively kidney selling seemed to have a positive response  although it might be a little too risky.

Mags i have a 2.1 degree and still have got called for interviews. i wouldn't hold your degree out to blame for not getting an apprenticeship. a 2,1 is a very good degree. not that i know what they are looking for. i've tried and done everything by the book as have all of the people on here and still no go.

i am going to contact AC for feedback on my interview. this feel like the legal version of the x-factor!!!


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## lawhead1

Il sell a lung if it means getting apprenticeship never mind a kidney!!

Emailed AC there to see if i could get feedback will let ye know if they send anything back.

ya i think my family will disown me soon if I dont stop my ranting and psyco-analysis of why i didnt get a bloody call back!!!!

Read here recently something about "dont apply to maples and calder".......why is that, thought they looked good at presentation and i was liaising with the partners on behalf of the law society and they seemed really nice???


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## Irishlawgirl

Maybe i'm a cynic but never know how good the feedback you get will be . Just a thought.

I'd say we've a week off from looking at the post then the letters from MOP, William Fry & A&L should be out - nicely timed for the xmas!


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## theo2008

Got my PFO from A Cox. But I'm over it, best of luck to all of you who got the second interview. 

Have any of you gotten acknowledgments of your application from Maples and Calder, BCM, LK Shields, or ODonnell Sweeney Evershed. I haven't gotten anything, just want to make sure they haven't sent anything out yet.

Also, Beauchamps - they say nothing about applying on their website. Does anyone know the story behind that?


----------



## l.m

Hi, I'm just curious as to whether anyone had an interview with BCM during the summer in relation to a job in Jan 2009? i had one and they keep putting off getting back to me and i've just heard that ppl who got contracts for 2009 have now had them put back to 2010!  i've been reading this for a while and its made me more depressed i didn't even manage to get an interview for arthur cox even tho i have 1:1 and all my fe1's passed absolutely gutted but, glad to see other ppl in same shoes as me!


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## Spy

i still want to know what Cox have to say. i don't think i'd bother applying there again. it's too traumatic. 

Theo haven't got any acknowledgments from those firms.  O'Donnell Sweeney's closing date isn't until friday week so they will definitely not be writing until mid decemeber at the earliest. 

does anyone know when the FE-1 results are due out? i'm hoping they might distract me from this misery.


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## Irishlawgirl

Taking positive action: apart from all the biggies... AC and McCann Fitz now out of the water.. 

What's the with the rest of Ireland?? When will people apply? I think applying now is too early at the best of times - and right now in this climate I think you'd look mad thinking you've even touched their to-do list! 

What's that leaving us with then? Apply in January / February?? What's the general consensus on that?


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## l.m

But where are you going start applying to? the smaller firms there all about pull and contacts and who you know.....so far this yr i have received 97 rejection letters depressive or what


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## Jev

I would assume that those who didn't make it to group interviews with AC probably weren't taken on the basis of things other than results. Things like spelling mistakes, CVs longer than 2 pages, badly laid out CVs and a generic cover letter would put them off I would imagine? I don't think results are everything in their eyes either...

I've only applied to 6 firms, waiting to hear back from 4 at this stage. The reason I didn't apply to more was that I put a lot of effort into each of the applications. If it all goes pear-shaped come January, I'll deal with it then, but for the moment I've exams to get out of the way.

I also can't understand, having read back to the start of this thread, how people send out hundreds of seemingly generic cover letters and CVs to firms and expect a favourable response. Tailoring your cover letter and CV to each individual firm is of the utmost importance, at least that's what I've been told


----------



## LDGantly

theo2008 said:


> Got my PFO from A Cox. But I'm over it, best of luck to all of you who got the second interview.
> 
> Have any of you gotten acknowledgments of your application from Maples and Calder, BCM, LK Shields, or ODonnell Sweeney Evershed. I haven't gotten anything, just want to make sure they haven't sent anything out yet.
> 
> Also, Beauchamps - they say nothing about applying on their website. Does anyone know the story behind that?


 
hi theo...i got an automatic online acknowledgement from LK Shields.....i think......i also got one from eversheds ages ago...but i think thats because i sent away my application form before most people...friends in my class sent theirs to eversheds 2 weeks after me, around the same time that most people would have...and they didnt get anything back....prob because the forms accumulated very quickly and they havent got time/be bothered to get back to everybody with acknowledgements and will do so later in december with interview notice/rejection.....so dont worry.....beauchamps: well thats a funny one: they had an application form to fill in by handwriting and return before 31st of oct....this form was available to download until about the 24th....after that it magically disappeared....i sent it on time because i had it saved on my harddrive....a friend of mine wasnt aware of the application form  (because they took it off the site) and emailed them re. application process...he got an email back saying that they are only accepting emailed cvs and will invite a small number of candidates for interview....the trainee page of their site subsequently said something about cvs for a couple of days and then went blank around the 29th of oct...and according to you, remains so.....weird....i would say they are aware of the amount of people looking for apprenticeships and are simply overwhelmed and havent got the resources to process all the applications.......also re eversheds: the UK branch, their biggest one, (they are the 8th biggest firm in UK) is in serious financial difficulty from what ive read...so i cant see how the irish partnreship would be fearing much better...im not really optimistic about them interviewing many if any at all...because like i said...they are letting  people go big time in the UK.....**** times buddy...not to worry...whats meant to be is meant to be...(I wish i believed that!!!!)


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## l.m

as regards to what you said Jev about generic letters, i put three solid months into doing cv's application forms and letters each individually different to all the companies i applied to and yet it makes absolutely no difference i think. Its the luck of the draw it seems these days


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## MOB

".......the smaller firms there all about pull and contacts and who you know"

I have a lot of sympathy for people who are unable to secure apprenticeships, but I would not want this opinion to become a commonly held belief.   Small firms have their own needs and their own budgetary constraints.   But my years of experience tell me that there is no reason to suppose that small firms are more susceptible to influence and pull than large ones.  Of course it happens - but much less than you might think.

The reality is that there are just too many graduates chasing too few places at a time of sudden decline in fee income.    This is by no means unique to the legal profession.  Newly qualified auctioneers, apprentices in the construction industry, bankers, ....you name it.  

I must acknowledge that it is most unfortunate that the legal profession is structured in a way that throws up these fairly sharp obstacles after you have already negotiated the hurdles of getting to study law and getting through the Law Society exams.   One cannot, for example, imagine medical students in their 4th or 5th year being told 'sorry - no training places available in the hospitals, so forget about qualifying as a doctor'.    

Perhaps a structural reform of some sort is required - but what that might be I am afraid I cannot see.


----------



## Jev

l.m said:


> as regards to what you said Jev about generic letters, i put three solid months into doing cv's application forms and letters each individually different to all the companies i applied to and yet it makes absolutely no difference i think. Its the luck of the draw it seems these days



I wasn't saying that everyone did that, just that some posters from this thread from back on '06 or '07 mentioned about sending out 250 CVs etc. and getting rejections back... maybe I was interpreting wrong but I doubt many people could put the effort for that many firms and send tailored applications 

BTW fair play for spending that amount of time applying!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Putting effort into cover letters is all well and good - but while doing my own proper job - it's so hard! It's a balance alright ! Priority is an ap'ship for us all - but if the job we're in (or college I think for most people on this) suffers - then that's going to have consequences as well.

Only only only good thing about this recession and it's effect on the legal profession - less people will join it. ( I shouldn't jok as I could be one - but more will leave it!) . 

But back to the thread: re feedback from interviews: I have been told i'm too confident and i've been told i'm not confident enough.

ahhhhhh!!!


----------



## Spy

As for cover letters, I've tried the firm specific cover letter and never had any success. So now I use a generic one. all it says is i'm looking for an apprenticeship, my qualifications and my FE-1 status. 
i've had a lot more success with this letter in getting interviews so i'm sticking with it. 

Irishlawgirl, what firms gave you that feedback. it's hardly helpful - more confusing


----------



## Irishlawgirl

To be honest - I can't even remember their names! It was two firms earlier this year - that both had dragged me into a two - pronged interview process!! I'd be afraid if I remembered their names in case I get bored one day when i'm qualified (touch wood!) and write them a " ha!! See what you're missing out on !!" letter (clearly to the one who thought I was too confident!!).

I think that it doesn't matter as much as what you put on your cover letter as to timing... and luck. Sorry guys - that is the way it works.


----------



## galwaygirl24

.....


----------



## Spy

i had a query from Maples today which means that they are looking at forms at least!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

ahh!! ! Just realised I don't think I send a Maples and Calder app off! Oooh i'm withered!


----------



## seansc1

Did anyone get anything from Hayes??? I received an email form them at the beginning of November saying they were reviewing applications and would revert back in late November. Since the I learned a friend got a p.f.o back from them. I haven't received anything as of yet.


----------



## theo2008

Is this Mason and Hayes? I haven't heard anything since a letter saying they would be reviewing apps in Dec.

If anyone's interested, I got a letter today from ODSE just confirming my application and that they'll be reviewing them in Dec.


----------



## Kiki86

Anyone get that random email from Mason, Hayes and Curran about them now recruiting their trainees via a Summer Internship programme?Im confused...does that mean that they're not holding any interviews for trainees this January?


----------



## Spy

it sounds like they are sidestepping recruiting Kiki. i haven't checked my email today but i'll keep an eye out for it. 
How long did it take for ODSE to get back to you Theo. I still haven't sent in my application, must get moving on that one. i'm so sick of filling out forms


----------



## seansc1

theo2008 said:


> Is this Mason and Hayes? I haven't heard anything since a letter saying they would be reviewing apps in Dec.
> 
> No it's just Hayes solicitors. I think they are different.


----------



## theo2008

Spy,

I sent my application off to ODSE on 24 Nov and got a letter today, 28 Nov. So they're pretty quick! 

I know, I'm so sick of these forms, but it's pretty similar to the others, so you may as well.


----------



## Spy

that is quick. i've been procrastinating with form filling lately. i think i started their form in October and still haven't finished it. although i might do it now, it would save me from work!


----------



## lawhead1

Got that email too. Its mason hayes and curran solicitors. There will be no interviews in january. The only means of securing a trainneship with them now is if you get an summer internship and they will interview you after and decide whether to offer a training contract or not!!


----------



## theo2008

Oh man, I haven't gotten any email. That is so annoying. Why do they have a recruitment process and act as though they are going to recruit when they're not? I know it's because of the recession and everything but sort it out people! If other firms start doing similar things, I'm going to scream.


----------



## Spy

I haven't got any email from MHC saying that. When did they send them?


----------



## Jev

Filling out the ODSE form now as I finally have some time... anyone have any idea of what to put down for 'project work'??


----------



## theo2008

For project work in ODSE, I put down Moot Court which was one of my college modules.


----------



## Spy

Left it blank. i'm not telling them how i finished essays for my finals while drunk! 
Isn't it strange how some of us have been contacted by MHC and others haven't. What are they playing at?


----------



## Spy

I did seminars and presentations and a horrible group project in my LLM but they don't ask for project work under the postgrad section. i doubt if essays count as a project work in themselves.


----------



## Jev

Thanks for the advice, I think I best leave it blank! The form I'm filling out isn't working out well as the interests and hobbies is turning out blank even though there is info entered!


----------



## Spy

Make up some hobbies. i have only have time for two now with work, studying and worrying about apprenticeships. maybe you could use the last one there??

if you are making one up, make sure it's not too outlandish and that you know something about it.


----------



## Jev

I've got it sorted now, what I meant was the edit boxes were taking the info I had entered but the form was blank for some reason after putting in the text - I saved another version and it worked the second time around!


----------



## lawhead1

Got the email for MHC at around 10 this morning, had got a letter about 2 weeks ago saying they were reviewing applications though. They said it was due to the success of last years summer programme and that is how they would be running it now but we all know its probably down to this damn economic climate!!


----------



## Spy

hmm i did get their acknowledgement letter but nothing on the email front. you're probably right though - it's a total front for looking like they are still doing well. why can't these people just tell it like it is instead of fobbing us off!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Was there an actual application form for MHC ?? I think i've left another one out!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHH


----------



## l.m

as regards Hayes solicitors did anyone get any feedback from them. i only got a letter and email sayin they be reviewing applications in nov,did anyone hear anything else from them? also did anyone hear anything from daly jermyn solicitors in cork?


----------



## Lalala85

I didn't get an e-mail from MHC:0 I'm soo confused as I also got that letter from them earlier back re looking at the application forms in December. This is soo depressin!!! I didn't get an apprenticeship last year and i'm desperate for 1!!!!! WHat to do????!!!!!


----------



## theo2008

The whole MHC thing is very strange. I didn't get an email either. One thing that's crossed my mind is that the email is another way of saying PFO and people who didn't get an email will be called for interview. But that's probably completely wrong. Maybe we'll all get an email tomorrow.

To Irish Law Girl, there is no actual application form for MHC, you email a CV and covering letter. There's no deadline on applying so you could still send one in now. Although, it seems it may be in vain!

I'm currently looking at qualifying in the UK which is looking like a huge possibility.


----------



## fi11

seansc1 also recieved an email a few weeks ago from Hayes saying that they'd revert to applicants in november. A friend of mine recieved a pfo from them the other day but I havn't heard anything back from them. maybe they havn't emailed all the applicants yet..was begining to think i'd just fallen off their list.
Has anyone heard back from Dillon Eustace?


----------



## Bazoo

LDGantly said:


> hi theo...i got an automatic online acknowledgement from LK Shields.....i think......i also got one from eversheds ages ago...but i think thats because i sent away my application form before most people...friends in my class sent theirs to eversheds 2 weeks after me, around the same time that most people would have...and they didnt get anything back....prob because the forms accumulated very quickly and they havent got time/be bothered to get back to everybody with acknowledgements and will do so later in december with interview notice/rejection.....so dont worry.....beauchamps: well thats a funny one: they had an application form to fill in by handwriting and return before 31st of oct....this form was available to download until about the 24th....after that it magically disappeared....i sent it on time because i had it saved on my harddrive....a friend of mine wasnt aware of the application form  (because they took it off the site) and emailed them re. application process...he got an email back saying that they are only accepting emailed cvs and will invite a small number of candidates for interview....the trainee page of their site subsequently said something about cvs for a couple of days and then went blank around the 29th of oct...and according to you, remains so.....weird....i would say they are aware of the amount of people looking for apprenticeships and are simply overwhelmed and havent got the resources to process all the applications.......also re eversheds: the UK branch, their biggest one, (they are the 8th biggest firm in UK) is in serious financial difficulty from what ive read...so i cant see how the irish partnreship would be fearing much better...im not really optimistic about them interviewing many if any at all...because like i said...they are letting  people go big time in the UK.....**** times buddy...not to worry...whats meant to be is meant to be...(I wish i believed that!!!!)



You are going to make an excellent solicitor. I'd hire you!


----------



## LDGantly

Bazoo said:


> You are going to make an excellent solicitor. I'd hire you!


 

thank you(though dont really know what you base that on). i appreciate the encouragement....kind of need whilst looking for an apprenticeship!!


----------



## firsttimeted

I think he was being a bit sarcastic.

Sort out your punctuation.


----------



## firsttimeted

I think a lot of the trainees should check out the unemployed Solicitors thread on the legal discussion of boards.ie. The profession is going down the toilet and I would strongly suggest that a lot of you seek another form of career. 

I will be graduating in January so I know what I am talking about. There will be about 1,000 unemployed Solicitors in January at my estimation and that ain't going to change soon.


----------



## lawhead1

theo2008 said:


> The whole MHC thing is very strange. I didn't get an email either. One thing that's crossed my mind is that the email is another way of saying PFO and people who didn't get an email will be called for interview. But that's probably completely wrong. Maybe we'll all get an email tomorrow.
> 
> To Irish Law Girl, there is no actual application form for MHC, you email a CV and covering letter. There's no deadline on applying so you could still send one in now. Although, it seems it may be in vain!
> 
> I'm currently looking at qualifying in the UK which is looking like a huge possibility.



I wouldnt say that is the case as some of my friends actually got pfos whereas this email states that they are not running any trainee interviews this year and are encouraging people to apply for their summer intern programme instead. But who knows in these unpredicatble times! Did everyone put their email address on their CV they sent to MHC......im presuming yes!! Dillon Eustace have sent nothing out yet. Was wondering did everyone get a confirmation email from A&L after they finished their online application form??


----------



## theo2008

Yeh I am probably wrong, just trying to make some sense out of it. 

No, I didn't get a confirmation email from A&L.


----------



## europhile

Are all the big companies taking on apprentices this year given that some of them are letting lots of their current ones go?

Doesn't bode well.


----------



## Jev

lawhead1 said:


> Was wondering did everyone get a confirmation email from A&L after they finished their online application form??



Got the invite to the A&L open evening soon after applying.. just reading the e-mail now and it mentions thanks for your recent application so I'd imagine that's what their confirmation e-mail was?


----------



## Bazoo

Spy said:


> hmm i did get their acknowledgement letter but nothing on the email front. you're probably right though - it's a total front for looking like they are still doing well. *why can't these people just tell it like it is instead of fobbing us off*!



Would that you were important enough for the likes of a firm like MH+C to bother going to the effort of fobbing you off. Some of the remarks on this thread make me laugh.


----------



## theo2008

Jev said:


> Got the invite to the A&L open evening soon after applying.. just reading the e-mail now and it mentions thanks for your recent application so I'd imagine that's what their confirmation e-mail was?



Oh God are you serious, I got no such thing. Can you remember when that was? I'm going to go trawl through my email now! Are there any other people who received no confirmation email either?


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Theo - nope I got an automatic acknowledgment that A&L received my online application form. (no mention of an open night).

I'm thinking Blackhall in Cork will not be open for business in 2009! And the Dublin one will have HALF the normal level of students. This is heartbreaking stuff guys but on the other hand - it's not just the legal profession taking a hit. Every area out there is taking cut backs - admittedly I'd feel better being let going AFTER qualifying than never having the chance to qualify. 

I read earlier that qualifying in the UK might be an option. After doing the FE1's it seems like a complete pain - however not qualifying at all and wasting more time is possibly worse. 

I am about as motivated as a snail right now - working as a paralegal in a top four firm - which is NOT easy - and i've no sign of an interview anywhere.


----------



## Spy

I got the email from A&L asking to attend their little reception they had. 
Still no email from MHC re taking trainees via their summer internship, i'm baffled by it.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

SPy -  have they had the reception already?


----------



## Spy

Yes, it was on teh 20th November. I didn't go to it though.


----------



## lawhead1

That In-House Presentation on the 20th of November for A&L was for Dublin Universities only, so if you were not given an invitation for it dont worry cos you had to be in college in Dublin......not sure why though!


----------



## l.m

i didnt get a confirmation from a&l that they got my application.  i did get that email from MHC this morning though about there summer internship thing.........could they not have just reviewed applications they've already received instead of making us send in more cv's?!
these companies are so strange they don't seem to know what there doing!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

oh nearly passed out!! That I didn't even get a PFO!! Thought it was the night that the biggies do for people they've invited for an interview. Phew! Can now go back to panicking over whether or not i've even been called for an interview.

Doesn't it seem like it's never going to happen for many of us? Bit pessimistic but i've been at this now for two proper years looking. TWO.


----------



## Spy

lawhead1 said:


> That In-House Presentation on the 20th of November for A&L was for Dublin Universities only, so if you were not given an invitation for it dont worry cos you had to be in college in Dublin......not sure why though!


 
Lawhead, are you sure that's the case? I am not in University in Dublin anymore although I did go to UCD.


----------



## theo2008

Got that email from MHC this morning.

I emailed A&L asking to confirm that they got my application because I got worried it hadn't sent. They replied today confirming they got it and that they would be in touch in the next few days. Hopefully, whoever said it, is right that the open evening was for those in Dublin. I have feeling that would be correct. I'm in Cork. But we'll know soon enough! We gotta think positive people!


----------



## l.m

Irish law girl i feel the same i've been looking for two years and i think im actually worse off now.I've nothing else left to try


----------



## Spy

Still nothing on the MHC email. I'm intrigued by it all. 
I feel you guys pain. i've been looking for an apprenticeship for two years properly and two more years before that while in college. it's tough going but stay positive (for now anyway  ). 

I wouldn't worry too much about whether or not you got asked to that A&L reception. I don't think it has much bearing on your application. Just make sure that they got your application, the is the most inmportant thing. 

It sounds like they will be writing to us all over the next few days anyway so all will be revealed then.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

I.M - there's a few of us in the same boat I think - I think if the firms didn't want me last year - they're probably not going to want me this year. No matter what work i've done in the meantime to bump up my CV. 

At this stage, i'm glad i've a big credit card bill - otherwise i'd have no reason to work!! At this stage - I can get no more relevant experience. Withered!


----------



## l.m

i spend my days at work trying to find something else to try so i'm not very productive!haha i'll be the happiest girl ever when i get a training contract..........one thing for sure when i am qualified im going bloody enjoy it.
can i ask has anyone got any feedback from BCM Hanby  Wallace?


----------



## lawhead1

theo2008 said:


> Got that email from MHC this morning.
> 
> I emailed A&L asking to confirm that they got my application because I got worried it hadn't sent. They replied today confirming they got it and that they would be in touch in the next few days. Hopefully, whoever said it, is right that the open evening was for those in Dublin. I have feeling that would be correct. I'm in Cork. But we'll know soon enough! We gotta think positive people!



theo2008, had you originally not received a confirmation email after completing the online app form?


----------



## Jev

Sorry I was away from the thread for a bit. Yep as far as I know, that e-mail was for the universities but I thought they sent it to most people . . .anyways I wouldn't worry as it was only an informational evening, nothing much else


----------



## theo2008

Lawhead1, I orginally had not received a confirmation email after completing the application form. 
I emailed yesterday asking them to confirm and they replied today confirming it.


----------



## Kiki86

Theo, u mentioned qualifying in the Uk?Is it a complicated process?Oh too much booze over the wknd+reading this thread on a monday afternoon=DEPRESSION!!


----------



## fi11

l.m said:


> i spend my days at work trying to find something else to try so i'm not very productive!haha i'll be the happiest girl ever when i get a training contract..........one thing for sure when i am qualified im going bloody enjoy it.
> can i ask has anyone got any feedback from BCM Hanby Wallace?


 
Im, I had interview with BCM during the summer, they rang me a few weeks ago to invite me to their open evening which I attended but nothing since. I see from the thread that you also interviewed with them during the summer. Have you heard anything else back since?


----------



## theo2008

Hi Kiki86,

Qualifying in the UK doesn't seem to be too difficult.

An Irish law degree seems to be deemed as a qualifying law degree in the UK. That seems to be the general view I got anyway from various websites I looked at. Therefore, you are exempted from the entrance exams which are called the Common Professional Examination (the equivalent of Ireland's FE1s) You do a year long course called called the Legal Practice Course (like going to Blackhall) and I think you can do this without having first obtained a traineeship. Then, you do a two year traineeship. 

CVMailUK is a great website where you can apply for summer vacation schemes and traineeships from the one place. I'm going to apply for traineeships, the deadline for most of them seem to be around April, May 2009. Although the competition for traineeships is just as harsh in the UK, it's a much bigger country and sure you never know. It seems to be worth a shot anyway, and I don't think converting to being an Irish solicitor after having qualified in the UK is too much of a hassle.


----------



## Spy

I got the email from MHC finally. I'm wondering if it's worth while applying for their internship. there's no guarantee that the would offer a traineeship even if you were successful in getting an internship. it seems too much of a gamble with them.


----------



## Kiki86

Thanks for the info Theo-defo gonna check it out!Might look in to qualifying in australia too!Dying to hear back from the other Dublin firms too though, waiting by the letter box is the only thing thats keeping me going!


----------



## l.m

Fi11, ya i was invited to the opening evening too but i didn't go cause they rang me like two days beforehand several months after the interview. i emailed the john guy in august and he said he'd be back to us in a few weeks..................few months later and no feedback.  one of my friends thou had got interview lined up for some date in December which she was meant to have round the time of me.  but, heard the last week that ppl who got contracts for 2009 last year have not had these put back till 2010 so i dont know what is happening! I'm tempted to ring them again but, all i get is they haven't made decision yet!


----------



## l.m

*Mr John Rejection
No Luck Law Firm
Unsuccessful Street
Refusalville
1 January 2002

Dear Mr Rejection

**Re: Job application rejection rejection letter*​
*Thank you for your letter of July 17. After careful consideration I regret to inform you that I am unable to accept your refusal to offer me employment with your firm. This year I have been particularly fortunate in receiving an unusually large number of rejection letters. With such a varied and promising field of corporate candidates it is impossible for me to accept all refusals for employment. *
*Despite your company's outstanding qualifications and previous experience in rejecting applicants, I find that your rejection does not meet with my needs at this time. Therefore, I will initiate employment with your firm immediately following graduation. I look forward to seeing you then.*
*Best of luck in rejecting future candidates.
*

hehe i thought this would give you guys some light relief!!!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Think i'm now going to look up qualifying in Australia! Everything seems such a waste having done all the FE1's. So basically we're all waiting on WFry, A&L and MOP. wonderful!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Priceless!! 

Oh you'd be tempted alright!!


----------



## l.m

haha wouldnt ya just!!!


----------



## Kiki86

Haha that letter is so funny!!Im with you Irishlawgirl on the possible OZ route cos I could combine study and travel.Kinda hard to figure out what the Oz process is tho so if you get any info would you mind posting it here?

Someone earlier asked about Ronan Daly Jermyn?Have heard vicious rumours bout them pushing back 2009 contracts to 2010 also. I rang them last week as they initially said that they would get back to people in November. I was informed last week that it will be December before they will be contacting people.Who wants to bet that they will just fob us off and not interview anyone??


----------



## Mag

Hi Kiki 

Welcome to my world-I'm considering going to England as well! One point though, when I went to my career advisor he told me that they organise a traineeship for you. They mightn't keep you on after it ends but hey, a traineeship is a traineeship! I posted the website address earlier on in the thread but heres it again http://www.college-of-law.co.uk/
They also welcome people over to see the college, and seem to be a lot more accommodating than  Blackhall here, which noone seems to know anything about.!


----------



## LDGantly

RDJ Glynn didnt even acknowledge receipt of my application....(although i know some friends got emails of acknowledgement)....but yeh they probably wont interview anyone (btw...apparently the solicitors there dont have personal secretaries and the office is open-plan!!) they're a relatively young firm so wouldnt expect much off them anyway. has anyone heard from eugene f collins...that form took about 3 hours to complete and not even an acknowledgement of receipt!! shocking...so are we all waiting to hear from mops/a&l/fry/maples this week or next?? kiki how long did it take arthur cox to get back to you after the second interview last year??
in case some of yee dont know there are some really informative threads on both traineesolicitor.co.uk and rollonfriday.com. on the former there is a recent thread re details on irish people qualifying in the uk...


----------



## lawgrad

Excellent rejection rejection letter LM!! Ya I emailed RDJ last week, no reply doesn't look good!  Is anyone going to the McCann Fitz presentation Thurs, what does one wear??!


----------



## theo2008

Got a PFO from Beauchamps today because she said the standard was exceptionally high and the intake reduced. I'd love to know if anyone got called for interview? I doubt anyone did.


----------



## europhile

LDGantly said:


> (btw...apparently the solicitors there dont have personal secretaries and the office is open-plan!!)



OMIGOD!  How do they hold their heads up in public?


----------



## europhile

.....


----------



## Bazoo

LDGantly said:


> *(btw...apparently the solicitors there dont have personal secretaries and the office is open-plan!!) they're a relatively young firm so wouldnt expect much off them anyway.*



If this is indicative of your personality and attitude then it more than explains a lack of interest in you from firms. Get a grip on reality.


----------



## theo2008

Why don't we just keep this thread for providing each other with information, advice and support.


----------



## europhile

It strikes me that Bazoo is giving excellent advice and direction.


----------



## theo2008

Ha ha, I knew I'd get a response like that. Anyway, I just think we should leave, what I would call, snide comments aside.


----------



## europhile

Bazoo's remark was far from snide.

LDGantly is going to get a bit of a shock when s/he goes into the real world.


----------



## LDGantly

Bazoo said:


> If this is indicative of your personality and attitude then it more than explains a lack of interest in you from firms. Get a grip on reality.


why do you insist on unnecessarily scrutinizing people's posts ?? you have yet to contribute anything useful to this thread, but insist on making smart remarks on my personality when a) you dont know me and b) you base you assertion on hearsay.(that will certainly make YOU a great lawyer!!-sorry for the low-blow..but had to say it ) Find something better to do with your time, for your own sake...and trust me, unfortunately and maybe even to my own demise i do have a firm grip on reality...
i heard from a solicior who knows someone who works there, that its "not a very healthy environment for someone to train in"..because if you're not doing secretarial work, you're working on a land dipute whilst listening to your colleague talk about medical negligence to his/her client over the phone...im sorry, call me what you like...but i worked way too damn hard during my degree to settle for that...and please stop with the smartass comments...they're not doing anyone any good..thanks.


----------



## MOB

I am not directing these comments particularly at LDGantly (though he\she might do well to take on board some of what follows);  I really do have sympathy for those seeking a training contract.

BUT, I would like to make a few points to disgruntled graduates:

1.  If you are looking for a position, you really need to do a little better than a generic cover letter addressed to Dear Sir\Madam, or even worse, To Whom It May Concern. Personalise your letters.

2.  I know that spelling and grammar are probably not as important to society at large as they used to be.  I know that 'text-speak' and the informality of email have completely changed the landscape in which we use the written word.   But lawyers deal in words.  It is simply not acceptable for a would-be lawyer to use bad grammar, bad spelling, bad punctuation or slang.    You might take the attitude that you can be 'normal' and informal in your everyday usage, but that you will easily shed this skin and write in very proper terms from 9-5 each day, when you have to do so for a living.  It doesn't work like that.  If you intend to make a living working with words and language, then your desire to get it right every time should permeate most of what you do.  The practice of Law is not merely a job: it is a profession and to some extent a vocation.  If you do not believe this to be true, then you need to question yourself as to whether the Law is actually the right career for you.  Make sure your spelling, grammar and general usage of language are exemplary.

3.  If you examine the numbers, it will be clear that small and medium sized firms around the country account for the vast bulk of apprenticeships.   There seems to be a huge emphasis placed on securing interviews with the large (and some medium sized) Dublin firms.   This emphasis seems to me to be somewhat misplaced.  Apply to rural firms.

4.   I did not have much trouble securing an apprenticeship, for the very good reason that this was in the days when the training contract might be summarised as "you don't have to work and we don't have to pay you".    However, I did start as a newly qualified lawyer in 1992, when the country was still in recession and jobs were very thin on the ground.  My CV ran to 2 pages only.  I put it through 60+ revisions before I was happy with it.  I don't see this level of obsessive attention to detail in any of the CVs which I receive from would-be apprentices.    Spend more time polishing your CV and give attention to detail.

5.  You can't fake confidence;  So don't let yourself be so dismayed by the difficulty in securing an apprenticeship.  You have already been through a tough Leaving Cert to secure entry to college.  You have achieved a good degree.   You have passed the difficult FE1 exams.   Some of you have been busy helping the starving mountain children of Nepal  and so on.  You are all very well qualified.  It is not your fault that the economy is in tatters.   Chin up.  Sorry if that sounds glib - but I believe it to be good advice.


----------



## ccbkd

I have been wondering lately about the big Irish Legal firms - In 2005 they were creaming it amongst the top earners in Europe, and with it they expanded and appointed new staff and promoted more Staff to Partners, they moved into, or are in the process of moving in to swanky new Offices on the Docks, spending freely on huge profits made during the Celtic Tiger. I have alot of friends who worked in Engineering or Architectural Practices who last year felt very much immune and protected against the slowdown in Construction in 2007 purely because they work with bluechip consultancies, some have been let go and other hold little if any hope for 2009 now that the full effects of Recession have taken hold.

I know some solicitors will say oh our unfair dismissal departments and insolvency department are out the door busy and we're not that exposed to construction, maybe so but I think the overall picture for these firms must be bleak as the problem is much wider than just construction and these firms have expanded hugely in the last few years they will now I believe contract to the size they probably were in the 80's...correct me if I'm wrong and if so where are the fees going to come from to salary all the staff?


----------



## LDGantly

Thank you MOB. Some very good advice from someone who has obviously been through the process. The only issue i would take with that is that some of us are only interested in training in Dublin based corporate/commercial firms...so its pretty hard to keep the chin up in the current climate. I know you might say to look outside the box and that there are other firms out there...but its pretty hard to just accept (at least for now) that its nigh-on impossible to get a training contract with the larger firms at the moment. Especially so when one has had his/her heart and soul set on working in the coroporate/commercial field for years and has worked so very hard to obtain a good degree. Thanks for the advice again


----------



## Spy

There has certainly been a lot going on here over the last day or so. 
MOB thank you for the advice. I think a lot of people are frustrated by the process of getting an apprenticeship, especially to secure one in one of the corporate firms. There are some peope that genuinely want to practice corporate law but I question how many people apply annually for these places with no interest whatsoever in this area. One of my best friends falls into this category - she developed an overnight interest in this area. This really makes me angry. But c'est la vie. 

I do think in the current economic climate it would be foolish of anyone to put all their eggs in the one basket and rely on getting an apprenticeship in Ireland or abroad. this is a global recession afterall. While I intend on finishing off the FE-1s, i won't see it as the end of the world if I don't get to qualify. While I would be disappointed if that materialises, I have to be practical and get a career underway regardless. There are other ways of getting onto the corporate ladder and taking the back door into law or working in an area where a legal background is beneficial. 

I have my Plan B and C ready and I'm concocting Plan D too. My advice is for others to start doing the same


----------



## Kiki86

Eeeek things are geting heated!!
LDGantly, as far as I know the second round inerviews for Arthur Cox take about a week and a half yes?Well from what I can remember of last years process, on the very last day of interviews-everyone who was successful will get a phonecall that evening. If you don't get the phonecall then its bad news im afraid!

Mag-Im afraid england is looking like a serious possibility-cheers for the info-only thing is that the fees and accomodation could be pretty harsh-will have to organise a meeting with the Bank to see how much of a loan I can get-Oh sometimes I wonder if its worth it!

Mob-brill advice particularly since you've been through all this before.However, I'd like to point out that many people including myself are applying to the Dublin Law firms because of the possibility of fees being paid for by the firm. I am from Cork and ideally would love to get a training contract in Cork but very few Cork frms pay for fees and thus the training contract would be futile cos I couldnt pay for the Blackhall course itself!!


----------



## Spy

Kiki - i'm not absolutely certain but i think that there is a HEA grant available for Blackhall and that it will cover most, if not all of your fees. It's means tested of course but if you just assess yourself and don't bring parents into it, it might be worth a shot. at least it might help in the eventuality that you have to pay.


----------



## Kiki86

Oh wow-Thanks so much for that info!Gonna go look into asap.Might be staying in Cork afterall!!


----------



## LDGantly

Kiki86 said:


> Eeeek things are geting heated!!
> LDGantly, as far as I know the second round inerviews for Arthur Cox take about a week and a half yes?Well from what I can remember of last years process, on the very last day of interviews-everyone who was successful will get a phonecall that evening. If you don't get the phonecall then its bad news im afraid!
> 
> thanks for the info kiki.


----------



## dazza21ie

Kiki86 said:


> Mob-brill advice particularly since you've been through all this before.However, I'd like to point out that many people including myself are applying to the Dublin Law firms because of the possibility of fees being paid for by the firm. I am from Cork and ideally would love to get a training contract in Cork but very few Cork frms pay for fees and thus the training contract would be futile cos I couldnt pay for the Blackhall course itself!!


 
I really think that if you are serious about getting a training contract you really have to accept that you may have to pay the fees yourself. Very few firms will pay the fees for you now and i suspect that quite a few who start on PPC1 next September will have agreed to do their apprenticeships without being paid.

For those who are currently looking for training contracts it is time to ask yourself the hard questions. Can you afford the €13,000 approx fees to the Law Society? Can you afford to go nearly 3 years on low pay or no pay? Can you afford to invest that much time and money without any guarantee of a job at the end of the road.

I think that those qualifying over the next few years will really have to really want it to get through. If you want it bad enough you will find a way to get a contract and pay your way. As stated above you can get a grant that will go some way towards the fees. You can get tax relief on the fees paid. Some will be lucky enough to get a contract with a firm that will pay fees for them.


----------



## MOB

dazza21ie said:


> I really think that if you are serious about getting a training contract you really have to accept that you may have to pay the fees yourself. Very few firms will pay the fees for you now and i suspect that quite a few who start on PPC1 next September will have agreed to do their apprenticeships without being paid.



I hope this is not the case.  As I understand it, the current Law Society Rules are that:

1.  You must pay a certain wage to an apprentice before they go to the Law Society
2.  You do not have to pay their tuition fees, but you must pay them a reduced wage while they are away at the Law Society
3.  You must pay a still modest, but higher wage when they return to the office
4.  You must pay a reduced wage again when they go back for the second Law Society course
5.  After the second course, you must pay circa €20k until they qualify.

I am aware that there is some scope to avoid element 1 and perhaps element 2 of the above, but I do not believe it is possible these days to have an unpaid apprentice.  Certainly I hope it is not possible.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

I was under the impression that firms can not pay for b'hall and not pay the apprentice while they're there either.

Also - got a PFO from Beauchamps. 

Got a acknowledgment letter from ODSE (sent application in last Friday). they seem organised!


----------



## theo2008

Got interview with A&L Goodbody. Letter came this morning. 

I was thinking of going to Carr Communications. Has anyone else gone to them, is it worth it?


----------



## dublin_bhoy

hi guys, first of all it is a great and very informative thread!

got a pfo from a+l goodbody in the post there this morning. I got through to the final round of interviews with arthur cox though - sometimes you would wonder what the criteria is for some firms?! does the fact i have not started my fe1s yet come into play with any firms do you think?

on the arthur cox question - they told most people in interview they won't get back until the 15th - however i heard as kiki referred to above that get back after they finish interviewing by phone, which would mean they informed those succesful last night as interviews finished yesterday. has anyone heard anything?! tension is killing me!


----------



## Spy

i haven't heard anything from A&L, Beauchamps or ODSE. I'll have to stalk the postman again. best of luck to those who have interviews. 
if i get anymore, i will definitely be doing the Carr Communications prep course. it's really good, from what i've been told anyway.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

A&L letters are out?! Oohh I'm now thinking not knowing was slightly better - at least I was in with a chance! (kinda - in my mind at least!).

As for Dublin Bhuoy - no fe1's doesn't bother the firms  as these a'ships are not until 2010 and they don't expect you to fail them to be honest!


----------



## Kiki86

Dublin Bhoy, since the interviews for AC are now finished perhaps it will be friday that the successful applicants get their phonecall.  I think the interviews finished on a friday last year so maybe thats why they made the phonecalls straight away before the week was out!I wouldnt give up hope till friday anyway!
PFO from A&L today too-. On the other hand im graduating from my llm next week so at least this year wasnt a total waste!


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

dublin_bhoy said:


> hi guys, first of all it is a great and very informative thread!
> 
> got a pfo from a+l goodbody in the post there this morning. I got through to the final round of interviews with arthur cox though - sometimes you would wonder what the criteria is for some firms?! does the fact i have not started my fe1s yet come into play with any firms do you think?
> 
> on the arthur cox question - they told most people in interview they won't get back until the 15th - however i heard as kiki referred to above that get back after they finish interviewing by phone, which would mean they informed those succesful last night as interviews finished yesterday. has anyone heard anything?! tension is killing me!



It's like you're sharing my thoughts!! I too got a PFO from A&L this morning, despite getting through to the final round with A. Cox. I'm sure it's not the lack of FE1s that's affecting your application. My personal view is that this year, with things so tight in the economy (bah humbug), firms like A&L and McCann are really only inviting a very limited number of candidates to interview. I feel that a lot of us who received PFOs from firms in the top 5 this year would probably have gotten interviews this time 12 months ago. I just think resources are so scarce this year that it must really only be the ones with absolutely brilliant cvs, results, experience, whatever that got called. Congrats to those who did and best of luck. Ye feckers!!! 

Got the spiel 'bout the 15th in my Cox interview as well but I've kind of resigned myself to the likelihood that the successful candidates will have been contacted by now. That said, I haven't heard of anyone getting a phone call yet - but maybe I'm just hanging with the wrong kind of people!


----------



## dublin_bhoy

Kiki86 said:


> Dublin Bhoy, since the interviews for AC are now finished perhaps it will be friday that the successful applicants get their phonecall.  I think the interviews finished on a friday last year so maybe thats why they made the phonecalls straight away before the week was out!I wouldnt give up hope till friday anyway!
> PFO from A&L today too-. On the other hand im graduating from my llm next week so at least this year wasnt a total waste!



Congrats on the llm. I'll try not give up hope, got my own exams to contend with next week so just want to be out of out the misery of the waiting game!



Lawyerlygrad said:


> It's like you're sharing my thoughts!! I too got a PFO from A&L this morning, despite getting through to the final round with A. Cox. I'm sure it's not the lack of FE1s that's affecting your application. My personal view is that this year, with things so tight in the economy (bah humbug), firms like A&L and McCann are really only inviting a very limited number of candidates to interview. I feel that a lot of us who received PFOs from firms in the top 5 this year would probably have gotten interviews this time 12 months ago. I just think resources are so scarce this year that it must really only be the ones with absolutely brilliant cvs, results, experience, whatever that got called. Congrats to those who did and best of luck. Ye feckers!!!
> 
> Got the spiel 'bout the 15th in my Cox interview as well but I've kind of resigned myself to the likelihood that the successful candidates will have been contacted by now. That said, I haven't heard of anyone getting a phone call yet - but maybe I'm just hanging with the wrong kind of people!



Yeah i'm going to put a&l and mccann rejections down to that - have to positive  If you do get offered cox or hear of anyone who did post it up here please so i can sleep easier and get a bit of study done! Best of luck!


----------



## LDGantly

dublin_bhoy said:


> hi guys, first of all it is a great and very informative thread!
> 
> got a pfo from a+l goodbody in the post there this morning. I got through to the final round of interviews with arthur cox though - sometimes you would wonder what the criteria is for some firms?! does the fact i have not started my fe1s yet come into play with any firms do you think?
> 
> on the arthur cox question - they told most people in interview they won't get back until the 15th - however i heard as kiki referred to above that get back after they finish interviewing by phone, which would mean they informed those succesful last night as interviews finished yesterday. has anyone heard anything?! tension is killing me!


 
hiya. yeh carr communications is really good. In relation to a.cox, i was told that i would be contacted before christmas and friends were told after the 15th. I dont know if there is any merrit in what kiki said regarding them contacting successful candidates on the evening of the last day of interviews.....but i dont know for a fact....because i cant judge kiki's credibility. But what i did find out for a fact, last night, was that a current trainee there only got contacted two and half weeks after her interview.....so there's still hope!!


----------



## Spy

Got my PFO from A&L quelle surprise!


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

and just got a PFO from Hayes solicitors via email.....

Time to take the boat I think!!


----------



## ellieg82

me too spy....another one down! :-(((


----------



## Jev

Got an interview with A&L thank god, that makes up for not making to the second round of AC! At least I have something to prepare for now.... 


With regard to what was mentioned above about getting called 2 and a half weeks later, what happens if someone who gets offered a contract decides to accept another one they have been offered? Does their contact get given to someone else who wasn't originally offered??


----------



## galwaygirl24

Re the A.Cox second round interviews, I was told I would be contacted before Christmas. I havent heard of anyone being told they could expect to hear by phone, nor have I heard of anyone actually getting a call this year. So dont give up hope yet guys!! I know a guy who works at AC at the moment who told me he was left hanging for almost three weeks before he got his offer!


----------



## LDGantly

Jev said:


> Got an interview with A&L thank god, that makes up for not making to the second round of AC! At least I have something to prepare for now....
> 
> 
> With regard to what was mentioned above about getting called 2 and a half weeks later, what happens if someone who gets offered a contract decides to accept another one they have been offered? Does their contact get given to someone else who wasn't originally offered??


 
Jev-congrats on A&L and best of luck. However i would seriously doubt that a.cox would give an offer to someone, just because a spot has opened up. Ive heard (and this makes sense, to me anyway) that they actually make offers to a slightly greater amount of people than they would realistically like to take on, because they know that some of those people are likely to/might take offers from other firms, which would result in coxes a) taking roughly an "expected" number of trainees, b) that number still represents some of what they see as the most "appropriate" people to train with them and c) that the majority of those people actually want to work in coxes as opposed to the other firms and have chosen coxes over other firms (assuming those people get other offers) - that explains why a) coxes interview before everyone else and b) if you get an offer, you have until end of january to accept it. 
Take from that what you will.


----------



## Eh!

Hi guys!

I am absolutely dying to hear the results of thr AC second round interviews! It's a very tough climate and there seems to be little consistency in the way various firms are chosing candidates to interview. 

If anyone hears back from AC can you plz plz plz post here so as to take the rest of us out of our misery! I really want to know one way or other so I can start getting some sleep again!!!


----------



## LDGantly

Eh! said:


> Hi guys!
> 
> I am absolutely dying to hear the results of thr AC second round interviews! It's a very tough climate and there seems to be little consistency in the way various firms are chosing candidates to interview.
> 
> If anyone hears back from AC can you plz plz plz post here so as to take the rest of us out of our misery! I really want to know one way or other so I can start getting some sleep again!!!


 
you're reading my mind!!


----------



## dublin_bhoy

ldgantly said:


> you're Reading My Mind!!



+1


----------



## LDGantly

dublin_bhoy said:


> +1


 what did you guys think of your interviews? how did yee get on? / any tough questions?


----------



## Eh!

I thought the interview was strangely enjoyable - not sure if that is good or bad! 

I hope we know tomorrow - a whole weekend in the unknown will be a nightmare!


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

LDGantly said:


> what did you guys think of your interviews? how did yee get on? / any tough questions?



Nope-no tough questions. Just general chat. Though I found I'd no sooner have started to answer a question then they'd launch into the next one! Don't think I did too well - think I was a bit too friendly and not reserved enough. But hey - you can only be yourself so if that's not what they wanted, I'll just come up with a new persona for next year!! ;P

Anyone else hear back from Hayes? (Not MHC but Hayes.)


----------



## Eh!

Are you thinking that the positive answers have already been sent out??


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

..


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

Eh! said:


> Are you thinking that the positive answers have already been sent out??



From Hayes? Possibly not - I was more fishing to see if anyone else received a PFO - misery loves company and all that!! But also, it'd be good to see what exactly they're looking for. I have a law degree, masters in commercial law and legal research experience. I mean I know everyone applying to the big firms has a good CV - I'd just be interested in hearing if Hayes are rejecting a lot (like I think McCann and A & L did) or if it's personal!

If your question referred to Cox, I'd say it's unlikely. Maybe tomorrow......


----------



## LDGantly

oh common guys!! keep the chins up...lets keep hope until after the 15th....i mean there is evidence that some people dont get a reply until 2.5/3 weeks after the interview!! (even if some people get offers before the weekend! you never know until you get the PFO)
regarding the interview itself..that is exactly how i felt....nothing tricky...and i was completely myself....but thats why its hard to know how i did! a friend of mine got asked to sell himself in 30 seconds. another friend got asked about weak points and how they could contribute to the firm as a trainee. mine seemed to be just a general chat about my cv...(2 other people i know said the same about theirs)
 lawyerlygrad i think its good that you were friendly (on the contrary, though relaxed i think that i was overly reserved) they want to know if they can work with you on a daily basis...and if you're friendly, what more could they want???
the way you have to look at it is that because we all seemed to be ourselves, if we're not offered a place its because our personalities wouldnt suit the atmosphere of the place, in which case we wouldnt like working there anyway!
any idea when mops/maples/fry getting back to people??


----------



## Eh!

No idea about the other firms - its all a waiting game! 

The only reason I am duibious about that far off date of the 15th is that every other year they were making calls the day after the interviews even on Saturday mornings!!

But as you suggest there is no point in being overly pesimistic! 

PS: Do most of you have your Fe1's done?


----------



## LDGantly

Eh! said:


> No idea about the other firms - its all a waiting game!
> 
> The only reason I am duibious about that far off date of the 15th is that every other year they were making calls the day after the interviews even on Saturday mornings!!
> 
> But as you suggest there is no point in being overly pesimistic!
> 
> PS: Do most of you have your Fe1's done?


 
nope, havent even started....its not a requirment in order for one to get an offer by any stretch of the imagination....im still in college


----------



## JessieJess

Eh! said:


> PS: Do most of you have your Fe1's done?





LDGantly said:


> nope, havent even started....its not a requirment in order for one to get an offer by any stretch of the imagination....im still in college



Although it's not a requirement to have your FE1s done when applying especially to the big firms, I think having passed your FE1s now is an advantage. Some firms specified that they only wanted people who had finished the FE1s to apply to them. Some firms were even looking for people to start in January 2009, so of course you must have had the FE1s taken by now! Thanks to this current economic climate, I don't think many firms are able to look very far into the future and offer traineeships past 2010, pushing it at 2011 (although I know MOP gave the option of a 2012 traineeship on their forms). I think it's a great advantage to be able to say to any firm, 'Yep FE1s are in the bag, I can start tomorrow if you want', rather than (in my case), 'Well, I'm in my final year now, so I got to finish that, then go sit the Fe1s, that's going to take a while, then I'll might <read: will take> a few months off and go travelling and relax before I come back to join you and leave my life at the door of this office'.

*For those of you who have interviews lined up or those who were luckily enough to get Arthur Cox interviews, may I ask how many of ye have a degree? And unless you think this is too personal, why do you think YOU got chosen out of hundreds of CVs for the interview?  *

Personally, I know I have the potential to make a great solicitor and I feel that this comes across well on paper. I have good grades, have bucketloads of extra-cir activities, debating and moot experiences, proven great communication and teamwork skills yada yada yada BUT I'm only in my final year of a degree. And I believe when my CV is lined up against somebody who has the same level of experiences, similar interests etc but they have a degree or a LLM , I believe that any firm, big or small, will chose them. It would seem idiotic to do otherwise. 

I don't know how much truth is in my belief, perhaps I'm just bitter after getting another PFO! Maybe I shouldn't be a solicitor after all...


----------



## galwaygirl24

Re hearing back from A.Cox, I think we should all still be pretty optimistic. Untill I hear of someone actually receiving an offer Im not giving up hope! Whatever they did last year was last year and this year there is a new trainee committee also so perhaps practices have changed. 
My interview was very informal also, more of a chat than an interview really I think. The panel were very friendly, but it is hard to judge how it went as I think really its a question of whether they think your personality and outlook will fit in with that of the firm. I think this is the reason that we were not grilled with questions about the economy or the legal world in general. I think that if you get called to the second interview they know you have the necessary academic strengths and skills, really, on a very basic level, I think they are asking themselves would I like to have this person on my team and to work with them on a daily basis.
Also, I think its a slightly better reflection on Arthur Cox if they do leave some time before making offers. At least it shows that they have considered everybody's merits properly instead of just making a quick decision immediately after you leave the interview room!
Finally, I live abroad which means my post takes a little bit of extra time to get here! So while most of you have heard from A&L by now, my PFO/invite to interview is still in the postal system somewhere! Fingers crossed when I get home this evening it will have arrived!


----------



## LDGantly

have they really got a new interview panel? that would explain why they may only start getting back to people after 15th


----------



## galwaygirl24

Yes, I know someone who works for A.C ad I was reliably informed


----------



## l.m

I got an email rejection from Hayes too yesterday and rejection from a&l and beauchamps.....................not much more rejection this girl can take 
as for ppl waiting on arthur cox congrats to you all on getting so far and don't be fretting too much at least you have some hope


----------



## LDGantly

JessieJess said:


> Although it's not a requirement to have your FE1s done when applying especially to the big firms, I think having passed your FE1s now is an advantage. Some firms specified that they only wanted people who had finished the FE1s to apply to them. Some firms were even looking for people to start in January 2009, so of course you must have had the FE1s taken by now! Thanks to this current economic climate, I don't think many firms are able to look very far into the future and offer traineeships past 2010, pushing it at 2011 (although I know MOP gave the option of a 2012 traineeship on their forms). I think it's a great advantage to be able to say to any firm, 'Yep FE1s are in the bag, I can start tomorrow if you want', rather than (in my case), 'Well, I'm in my final year now, so I got to finish that, then go sit the Fe1s, that's going to take a while, then I'll might <read: will take> a few months off and go travelling and relax before I come back to join you and leave my life at the door of this office'.
> 
> ive sent you a personal msg
> 
> *For those of you who have interviews lined up or those who were luckily enough to get Arthur Cox interviews, may I ask how many of ye have a degree? And unless you think this is too personal, why do you think YOU got chosen out of hundreds of CVs for the interview? *
> 
> Personally, I know I have the potential to make a great solicitor and I feel that this comes across well on paper. I have good grades, have bucketloads of extra-cir activities, debating and moot experiences, proven great communication and teamwork skills yada yada yada BUT I'm only in my final year of a degree. And I believe when my CV is lined up against somebody who has the same level of experiences, similar interests etc but they have a degree or a LLM , I believe that any firm, big or small, will chose them. It would seem idiotic to do otherwise.
> 
> I don't know how much truth is in my belief, perhaps I'm just bitter after getting another PFO! Maybe I shouldn't be a solicitor after all...


----------



## LDGantly

ive sent you a personal msg


----------



## Spy

When did Beauchamps send out their letters. I haven't heard anything from them at all which is probably a bad sign in itself but if the letters have been out for days, i'd like to email them and find out what's going on! 

best of luck to all waiting to hear back on 2nd interviews - try not to fret too much. if they want you, they will stalk you. at least that's what they did to people i know who got offered traineeships in AC


----------



## theo2008

Spy, I got my email PFO from Beauchamps on 2 December.


----------



## LDGantly

Spy said:


> When did Beauchamps send out their letters. I haven't heard anything from them at all which is probably a bad sign in itself but if the letters have been out for days, i'd like to email them and find out what's going on!
> 
> best of luck to all waiting to hear back on 2nd interviews - try not to fret too much. if they want you, they will stalk you. at least that's what they did to people i know who got offered traineeships in AC


 
i got a pfo letter on the 3rd


----------



## Irishlawgirl

So pretty much all that's left to hear back from apart from the above-mentioned are MOP and WFry. I know last year I'd been called/got a letter from WFry for an interview by the time the second round interviews were on.  I think b'hall will be empty in 2009!!!


----------



## lawhead1

I think we all have to look at this situation realistically.........all the small firms appear to be taking on virtually no one, and all the big firms must certainly be cutting their numbers that they take on to roughly 15-20 each if even. If you compare this year with last year only arthur cox have invited a similar number of applicants for interviews, the others without doubt are interviewing a much smaller number. Irishlawgirl is right Blackhall is going to be like a ghost town for 2009/2010!!

Got a phonecall today that I got an interview with Maples and Calder


----------



## Lalala85

Got an invite for an A&L interview so i am delighted!!!!! Heard NOTHING from Maples and Calder Has anyone received an invite or a PFO????


----------



## lawgrad

Got the phone call from Maples as well this morning, MOP and William Fry are certainly taking their time.  I got the rejection from A&L as well, really don't know what they were looking for application form took hours!!!  I think the numbers they are interviewing are way down (considering the lack of places as well).  Any one else hear that FE1 results are out Monday?? Also the timetable for March is out incase ye haven't heard..


----------



## lawhead1

William Fry said that they would have their invites out before the christmas break so im guessing it will be early next week, havent a clue about MOPs though, hopefully soon!


----------



## Lalala85

oh crap! Does that mean everyone got the phonecall this morning????


----------



## cjak

lionel_hutz said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've just found this thread and I'm in the middle of the application process too.
> 
> The whole process is an awful pain in the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language! Luckily, I did a couple of internships in the summer and got a couple of offers, but I'm sending around other application forms at the moment. Got a PFO from McCann's, but got second interview with AC, which I'm happy with.
> 
> I've seen Maples and Calder mentioned a few times on this thread. People, if you get an offer from any other firm in Ireland, do *NOT* join M&C (this sounds like a bitter rant from someone who interned there and didn't get the offer, but it's not). I'd be happy to explain why to anyone via Private Message, but don't want to get too specific on a public forum. By the way, I've heard a rumour that they pay trainees top Dublin salaries, and they mentioned at their Open Evening that they pay the most - this is *not* true. It's actually less than the Big 5 salaries, with the exception of MOP, which is the smallest.
> 
> Best of luck to everyone with the applications, interviews etc - hopefully we'll all get traineeships and then we can go back to drinking our way through our final year of college


----------



## cjak

Hi Im just wondering mr hutz whats wrong with Maples and Calder
i have an interview with them
whats your experience?

thanks!

cjak
ps pm me if u want


----------



## Spy

FE-1s are out. Just got my results there. 
Got my PFO from Beauchamps on Friday too.


----------



## LDGantly

hope the fe1s went well for you

damned postman....no signs of fry's or mops
did maples do all their ringing of friday or are they going to continue to do so this week? any ideas?


----------



## Spy

i got what i expected so i'm happy enough. have only 2 more left to do. 

i don't know about maples and their ringing. i haven't heard a peep from them. they emailed my last week with a query but since that nothing.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

I haven't heard anything from Maples either (wonderful!). MOPs and WFry are really taking their time here!! 

Is anyone applying to all the other firms in Dublin (or rest of Ireland)??? Or is it too early?


----------



## LDGantly

i applied to 15 in total, all in dublin...apart from rdj glynn...have no intention of applying anywhere else for the time being as i dont think i would have much of a chance getting in due to current climate/utter lack of connections..


----------



## europhile

I presume that some places aren't taking on trainees this year given that they're not all keeping the last lot on.


----------



## LDGantly

congrats with the fe1s

i should really get back to study, have an exam in 2 hours (so demotivated....whats the point in trying to do well when its hard to even get an interview??)


----------



## Spy

LDGantly said:


> congrats with the fe1s
> 
> i should really get back to study, have an exam in 2 hours (so demotivated....whats the point in trying to do well when its hard to even get an interview??)


 
Thanks and best of luck with the exam. Get motivated to do well. It's a matter of pride and doing yourself justice. You'll need those good results eventually so chin up!


----------



## seansc1

Has anyone heard back from Arthur Cox regarding positions yet? Would love to know one way or another.


----------



## Thrifty1

Hi, i finished uni in 2002 BBLS at UCD and am studying for FE-1's at the moment. I have a young baby and was recently made redundant so am thinking about not going back to work for a while and staying at home with her and studying.
I dont have an legal experience but think its important i get some now especially with all the competition for apprenticeships.
My question is, would it be worthwhile for me to seek one day a week work experience in a solicitors office. I dont particularly want to go back working full time and have to put the baby into creche and also it will leave me no time for studying.
Obviously its doubtful anyone would take me on and pay me for one day so i would do it unpaid. Would this be a wise move or a waste of time and also do you think it would be difficult to get?
I plan on sitting 5 in March and 3 (or more !!) in Sept.
Thanks.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Thrifty1 said:


> Would this be a wise move or a waste of time and also do you think it would be difficult to get?
> I plan on sitting 5 in March and 3 (or more !!) in Sept.
> Thanks.



I have all the experience in teh world, good exam results (not fantastic!) all the fe1's done and still don't have an ap'ship. Experience is all well and good but i've found it's gone against me as i've done civil paralegal work and corporate firms don't care about it, and i've done corporate paralegal work and small firms won't look at me as they think i am  (in my own mind) settling as why else would I get paralegal work in a top 4 firm and then look for an ap'ship in a small, general practice - so they don't hire me as they think my experience insinuates that I would not be happy in their firm.

As you can see - i'm slightly disgruntled by getting all the relevant experience and it somewhat back-firing on me!! For the sake of getting it, not getting paid, paying for a creche.. hmmm perhaps you could seek work from a barrister, perhaps do typing at home for one or something.


----------



## lawgrad

I still think experience is important, I have good results (1H) and six months legal experience.  I don't think I would have gotten any interviews only for the experience.  Although it is probably hard enough to get now in this climate, even unpaid.. Maybe part-time legal secretary wouldn't be a bad option.  Would you consider doing four FE1's in March rather than five?! No point putting yourself under too much pressure.  I got my results this morning, sat and passed four, but I had considered doing 5/6, in hindsight I think I would have failed if I had.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

The only thing with not having experience - i've seen an amount (if not an majority) of people still in college (not even having their fe1's) getting interviews with big firms. It is baffling but their grades must be out of this world! But the point is - they've no experience. Might not even have office work on their cv. 

Perhaps I'm bitter as i've been gaining "valuable experience" now for TWO years and it's gone against me at times in interviews. So just want to make the point that it's not the be all and end all - particularly if you have office experience.


----------



## Jev

Irishlawgirl said:


> The only thing with not having experience - i've seen an amount (if not an majority) of people still in college (not even having their fe1's) getting interviews with big firms. It is baffling but their grades must be out of this world!



I'm still in college but my grades aren't out of this world. (I wish they were!) I don't think that experience matters much to be honest and although I haven't any I wouldn't see why a firm would look for someone with work experience when you're seeking to be trained by them anyways? Actually I think that if you're in college they don't expect it and vice versa

The applications are tricky no doubt and as far as I've heard it can be all down to luck in some respects. For instance, if you're application is in a pile with everyone else who has better grades or better extra-curricular activities or if you're the last application to be reviewed by someone who has already seen 100 others that day, you're chances aren't going to be good.


----------



## Eh!

Hey everyone! 

Anyone get any news from AC about the 2nd round interviews? Have offers been made?? On tinderhooks waiting


----------



## Thrifty1

Thanks for the replies, Irishlawgirl, thats rough ,your sort of damned if you do and damned it you dont.
I had been working in business and encountered that problem, too much experience for small firms but just not quite enough for the bigger ones.

I dont mind working unpaid and paying for a childminder its only about €35 so affordable.

lawgrad - congrats on passing, i sat 4 2 years ago, passed contract and tort and but got 47% in constitutional so no exemptions. I think as im not working at the moment im better off doing as many as possible as i may be back sometime during the year so would have less time to study. Also going to try and fit in another baby this year !!!
I remember a fair bit from that sitting so im not under too much pressure.


----------



## Lalala85

Seroiusly where are the letters from Coxs and Mops???? Has anyone heard anything???? Also i'm planning on sitting 5 FE1s in April....does anyone have any tips????? Which exams are the easiest and which are the hardest???


----------



## Thrifty1

Lalala85 said:


> Also i'm planning on sitting 5 FE1s in April....does anyone have any tips????? Which exams are the easiest and which are the hardest???


 
Im sitting constitutional, contract, criminal, property and equity.

I sat 4 a couple of years ago and passed tort and contract. In my mind company and tort are probably the most difficult and contract and criminal the easiest.
People seem to hate constitutional but i have just finished studying it from the Griffith manual and found it grand.
You would want to try and do the ones that overlap most together.

Do you have a law degree, are you doing a preparatory course?


----------



## Eh!

Lalala85 said:


> Seroiusly where are the letters from Coxs and Mops???? Has anyone heard anything???? Also i'm planning on sitting 5 FE1s in April....does anyone have any tips????? Which exams are the easiest and which are the hardest???


 

Heard nothing from Cox re interviews - yet!  !


----------



## seansc1

Lalala85 said:


> Seroiusly where are the letters from Coxs and Mops???? Has anyone heard anything???? Also i'm planning on sitting 5 FE1s in April....does anyone have any tips????? Which exams are the easiest and which are the hardest???



Still waiting for Cox. God this is horrible. Regarding the Fe-1's, just got the results and that's them finished for good. I'd seriously recommend doing Contract, Equity, Criminal, and Property for the first four. Although EU seemed like the toughest paper it seemed to be marked the easiest so could be a possible fifth. 

For me the worst two were definitely Constitutional and Tort with Company a distant third. 

Hope this is some guidance. Just make sure and not spread yourself too thin by doing 6 or 7 as this can sometimes lead to people not getting that magical three number on their first attempt which is annoying due to repeats.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Not liking this silence!! Guessing no one has heard from A&L, MOP or Frys..! Or did someone hear from A&L or am I imagining it?? Will re-read last few posts!!

Also re Maples and Calder - haven't heard a bean! Anyone get more phonecalls (after 8 Dec)?? Or a PFO??


----------



## seansc1

Irishlawgirl said:


> Not liking this silence!! Guessing no one has heard from A&L, MOP or Frys..! Or did someone hear from A&L or am I imagining it?? Will re-read last few posts!!
> 
> Also re Maples and Calder - haven't heard a bean! Anyone get more phonecalls (after 8 Dec)?? Or a PFO??



Got PFO from A&L last week. Also got a PFO from Hayes two days ago via email. Also PFO from Beauchamps.

Waiting to hear from Cox. Not looking good at this stage.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

ha!!! I can't believe it!! I completely forgot a PFO from A&L !!!! Last week!! ooh i'm dreaming at this stage!!!!!


----------



## Sarah2

got an email from maples inviting me for interview, didnt get a phone call tho. And I heard from cox's too, not sure if everyone has or not. Got pfo's for goodbody and mccanns. Really want mops tho so fingers crossed! when do u think we'll hear from them? It seems ages since we applied...


----------



## lawgrad

Just got a call and email from MOP.  You mean offers for Coxs are out??


----------



## LDGantly

got a call from coxes yesturday. still no word from maples/frys/mops


----------



## Irishlawgirl

here we go!!!  MOPs interviews are out so......wonderful!! Phone hasn't made a sound today! 

Soo now the only one left is WFry. 

Ooh this is depression central!!


----------



## lawgrad

Mops might not make all calls this evening.. Have yet to hear from BCM Hanby Wallace, ODSE and LK Shields as well.


----------



## LDGantly

lk shields are going through cv's at the moment, they emailed me last friday because they couldnt open my cv for some reason, and asked me to resend it, which i thought was quite nice of them. I would expect them to start getting back to people next week. So mops are ringing AND sending emails?


----------



## seansc1

Sarah2 said:


> got an email from maples inviting me for interview, didnt get a phone call tho. And I heard from cox's too, not sure if everyone has or not. Got pfo's for goodbody and mccanns. Really want mops tho so fingers crossed! when do u think we'll hear from them? It seems ages since we applied...



Are the offers from Cox out then???


----------



## Sarah2

I think they probably are- not definite tho that everyone has heard. Do u think that everyone that has a mop interview will have an email by now?


----------



## Lalala85

I am sooo confused...so has Mops sent out all interviews???? I got no call Crap!!!!! This is way too depressing Also received no call from Maples and Calder so loks like the only interview i'll be doing is A&L....great....looks like i'm really goingto have to impress, only have one shot.


----------



## Eh!

seansc1 said:


> Are the offers from Cox out then???


 
Cox are out?? Are they calling everyone or just those they are making offers to!


----------



## Lalala85

Has anyone else heard back from MOPs yet??


----------



## Lalala85

also did anyone do an interview with Philip Lee Solicitors and hear back??


----------



## Stronge

My friends daughter did 5 FE1s and pass them she still has 3 to do. She did not apply for any Apprenticeships as she was not expecting to pass the exams is it now too late to apply anywhere.  She has been told that is it only the large firms that are taking on people ...could this be true!!!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

It's too late to apply to the big firms (although from the looks of things - it might also have been futile to even have applications in on time as they're taking NO ONE on!).

As for the rest of Ireland - smaller/medium firms are just not taking anyone on this year from what i've been told. If the big firms are cutting their numbers in half then the smaller firms, who generally only take on one or two are basically cutting the number altogether and taking on no one. Blackhall in Dublin will be some sight I think!! The Law Society will have some drop in fees!! (silver lining!!)


----------



## Lalala85

Anyone get a phonecall from MOPs today???


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

seansc1 said:


> Got PFO from A&L last week. Also got a PFO from Hayes two days ago via email. Also PFO from Beauchamps.
> 
> Waiting to hear from Cox. Not looking good at this stage.




Received a PFO from Arthur Cox via post this morning. Have to say - they're one classy firm - lovely rejection letter as rejection letters go!! (Genuinely!)

Haven't heard from MOPs so I guess that ship has sailed too.


----------



## Jev

Got a call from MOP earlier although I was in an exam so didn't get the voicemail til after; they sent an e-mail over too

Sorry to hear about the rejection from Arthur Cox, they do have a really nice letter though, I dunno if it's the same as the ones after the first round interviews?


----------



## Lalala85

I guess that means that MOPs have called everyone by now re interviews! thats just great....looks like they also don't want me Why did i bother working for a first class law degree if it means absolutely nothing!!!


----------



## Lalala85

Jev, did you hear of others who got calls?? What time did you get your call at??


----------



## LDGantly

dont feel too down...you might get a call yet.
nobody knows anything for sure....we're all just speculating. For instance, how do you know that they dont ring all Dublin candidates first, then Cork, Limerick, Galway etc etc (not necessarily in that particular order) ... or something along those lines..?


----------



## Jev

Lalala85 said:


> Jev, did you hear of others who got calls?? What time did you get your call at??



Got my call around 10am, I was in the exam at that stage. I'd been chattin' to one of the lads before that who had said he got an e-mail from them late yesterday evening. 

I haven't a clue how they're calling/e-mailing, whether it be by location or what...


----------



## Irishlawgirl

I do think (as blunt as this sounds) that most people (even if they have first class honours) are not looking at blackhall 2009. Something even worse to consider is the fact that this means that double the number will be applying for 2010! 

I've had all FE1's since 2006 - being working in law firms since them. I'm gone past being disappointment (possibly into martyrdom now instead!) but I think it's going to test people and their conviction in wanted to be a solicitor.


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

Jev said:


> Got a call from MOP earlier although I was in an exam so didn't get the voicemail til after; they sent an e-mail over too
> 
> Sorry to hear about the rejection from Arthur Cox, they do have a really nice letter though, I dunno if it's the same as the ones after the first round interviews?



Congrats on the interview with MOP.

Possibly was the same letter - it was very much a "it's not you, it's me. I like you, it just won't work out between us" kinda letter!!


----------



## galwaygirl24

Congratulations to everyone who received an offer from Cox's. I haven't heard anything back so I guess my letter will arrive tomorrow. Absolutely gutted to be honest. 
Got a PFO from Maples & Calder today by email-nothing yet from MOP's. 

Interview for A&L in January, so at least I have another shot!

The whole process is pretty disheartening though, I have a 1:1, 5 blackhalls, a post grad in law and one years experience working in a corporate law firm in Europe and still Im getting PFO's. I think I should start offering them bodily organs in exchange for a traineeship at this stage!!


----------



## Sarah2

Looks like i'm not going to hear from mops then. Last year i got to the final round and when i got the rejection call i was told it literally was a toss up between me and someone else for the final place, and that they really wanted me to apply this year if i didnt get anything else. I really dont understand how the application process works!...


----------



## Lalala85

I know! i am absolutely disheartened by the whole thing!!!! Seriously!


----------



## Lalala85

called Frys.......they said they will send out their invites at the end of next week!!!


----------



## Sarah2

just got a call from mop so dont give up hope yet!seems theyre just taking their time getting round to everyone


----------



## Lalala85

Well done Sarah2!!! Although i've called them 5 times today so i'd say they are SICK of me. i'm just so anxious to know!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

5 times today!! I hope you don't give your real name!! Priceless!! If I had thought of it - i'd have done it too!


----------



## dublin_bhoy

Hey Guys, ended up getting offered arthur cox so obviously over the moon. I will say however that i did not get any other interviews with any other firms (I take if we have not heard from Maples or MOP by now it's a write off?) so it definitely is really hard to know what exactly they are looking for so everyone keep the heads up and don't give up, it will work out for you eventually!


----------



## LDGantly

anybody get the letter from eugene f. collins? at least they're sincere, unlike some firms..


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Just got PFO e-mail from MOP. 

Haven't heard anything from EFC but don't expect to as I think they'd trainees booked in for 2009 and only recently had to tell them that they won't be taking them on. Doubt they're too keen about looking at 2010 intake.

Waiting on WFry and LK Shields.


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

Email PFO from MOP as well. 

Just got letter from EFC. Nice to see a bit of honesty. At least they aren't persisting in the charade that others seem to be engaging in. 

Is there a "coping with rejection" helpline anywhere, I wonder??!!


----------



## seansc1

Lawyerlygrad said:


> Email PFO from MOP as well.
> 
> Just got letter from EFC. Nice to see a bit of honesty. At least they aren't persisting in the charade that others seem to be engaging in.
> 
> Is there a "coping with rejection" helpline anywhere, I wonder??!!



Did anyone apply to Lavelle Coleman Solicitors? If so, did anyone receive anything from them?


----------



## Lalala85

Did apply to Lavelle Coleman but heard nothing. Frys  letters of rejection and letters re interviews are out at the end of next week. Hear nothing from LKShields or BCM Hanby Wallace.

What did the Eugene F. Collins letter say??????? I'm intrigued! A re they taking on any trainees????

Stil no PFO email from MOPS Where the hell is it????

All this rejection is seriously depressing


----------



## Lalala85

opps spoke too soon....just checked my other e-mail and my rejection is there! Great!


----------



## Spy

Got my PFO email from MOPs too. another slap in the face. What did EFC letter say? it all sounds very intriguing. Congrats everyone who got interviews and offers. 

i think this is the coping with rejection helpline Lawyerlygrad


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

Spy said:


> Got my PFO email from MOPs too. another slap in the face. What did EFC letter say? it all sounds very intriguing. Congrats everyone who got interviews and offers.
> 
> i think this is the coping with rejection helpline Lawyerlygrad



I'd say it's as good as one could expect alright Spy  And it certainly is a big help!

EFC basically said "hey listen, you know the way the economy is in ruins yeah?  Well we've been affected and we don't know if we'll be needing anyone so we're holding off on interviews at least until the new year when we'll reassess".


----------



## LDGantly

i applied to lavelle coleman-got an acknowledgement in late october but nothing since.

EFC said that they're basically not taking anyone on due to economic climate....they said that they will contact again if the economic environment improves..


----------



## dazza21ie

LDGantly said:


> i applied to lavelle coleman-got an acknowledgement in late october but nothing since.
> 
> EFC said that they're basically not taking anyone on due to economic climate....they said that they will contact again if *the economic environment improves*..


 
Which might not be too soon going by the consensus 

Tough times all around within the legal profession. There were nearly as many practices advertised for sale in this months Law Society Gazette than the whole of last year. Some people obviously had enough and are jumping ship.


----------



## Spy

Well that was decent of them to actually be honest. Is today the offical day of rejection? So far today I've got PFOs from MOP, Dillion Eustace and Maples. and the postman has left me another letter for opening later on. 

I never applied to Lavelle-Coleman - do they have a closing date or are they more open ended on the application front?


----------



## Lalala85

got nothing from Dillon Eustace today


----------



## lawjobs

So Dillon Eustace are out now too? 
Not many left now. I got an interview with mop but they didnt ring me, just sent an email. What was the phonecall about? Just the same thing?


----------



## LDGantly

Spy said:


> Well that was decent of them to actually be honest. Is today the offical day of rejection? So far today I've got PFOs from MOP, Dillion Eustace and Maples. and the postman has left me another letter for opening later on.
> 
> I never applied to Lavelle-Coleman - do they have a closing date or are they more open ended on the application front?


 
yep, "official rejection day" sounds about right...got pfo from mops, maples and EFC, heard nothing from dillon eustace.
LC have no date up on their website, but in their letter they said they will be reviewing cv's in december....might still be worth it to send yours in...


----------



## cjak

Chin up everyone. The rejections arent a reflection of your quality, they're a reflection of a broken sector.

The firms are only acting as "recruiters" for good PR. They are taking on the bare minimum of trainees so as to not be percieved by the media as falling apart. By even giving one person a position they can blow their horn as "growing" and taking a long term view.

From what ive found, most firms are very worried about the press saying that they cant keep on trainees or they aren't even interviewing for graduates. so if that means having us all fill out applications, then thats what they'll do. 
To keep their clients they have to maintain a strong image. Unfortunately we're being used to keep this charade up. Dont be fooled!

The exception to my theory is that some people are getting contracts and they deserve them so congratulations!


----------



## lawgrad

Just wondering has anyone done interview coaching, and if so could you recommend anyone?  Thanks!


----------



## cjak

dont do it be yourself, they train you to give boring generic answers.
Feedback from HR told me they spotted it in me... and they will have to reject you if they dont see the real you because they dont have anything to judge you on!


----------



## theo2008

I've booked Carr Communciations. It costs 150. I take the point that it could make you generic and boring but I also think you have to learn how to play the game and be prepared. You can let your personality shine while also streamlining certain aspects of your interview technique.


----------



## Jev

Wow €150, they're really milking it there! Personally I think it's best to get a few tips from someone in the know and just prepare you're answers yourself to give you an idea of what you're going to say, but not a script... Anyone I know that has succeeded in interviews hasn't needed a prep course


----------



## trainee201

I didnt go to carr because I was worried id be like everyone else. From working in a top 5 the feedback i am gettting from the partners who interview is that they stray away from people contriving their response which is what carr makes you do


----------



## cjak

anyone heard from Dillon Eustace? LK Shields? BCM?

I read in the Business section of Irish times on friday that contracts are only being offered for 1 year in A&L...


A&L Goodbye...


----------



## Jev

cjak said:


> I read in the Business section of Irish times on friday that contracts are only being offered for 1 year in A&L...



link?

As far as I know they can't


----------



## LDGantly

I did the carr communications training course back in october. I learned all the "tricks" and "answer formulation" techniques that one would expect to learn from attending such a course. However I did not use ANY of them when it came to the interview, which has subsequently transpired into an offer. The best thing I got out of carr communications, is being absolutely grilled by my coach. At least I felt it was really tough but then again I hadnt done any interviews prior to it. (however some pretty experienced interviewee's have since watched the dvd and confirmed its "BBQ" status) 
I came out thinking, "an actual interview, could not, in anybody's worst nightmare be THAT hard"....that helped me and relaxed me, when preparing for the actual interview. They wont grill you intentionally, but my advice is MAKE them do it, by either asking them politely or by doing what i did. 
I had never been to an interview (thats not to say i havent had jobs) prior to going to carr communications and I intentionally got my coach to dislike me before he conducted the mock interview, by being cocky and arrogant, because I knew that to get my €150 worth of hard earned cash, I needed to get something more out of there than "skills and techniques" that I already had a fair idea about from talking to experienced people. I know that that wouldn't be everybody's cup of tea but I felt that if I got through that (and he said that I actually did reasonably well considering it was my first interview....), I could surely do better at and be more mentally ready for an actual interview. Conquer you fear/nerves and you'll conquer the interview-thats my advice. Aside from that, the last poster is completely correct in saying "know your cv and be natural"-you cant go wrong.


----------



## LDGantly

cjak said:


> anyone heard from Dillon Eustace? LK Shields? BCM?
> 
> I read in the Business section of Irish times on friday that contracts are only being offered for 1 year in A&L...
> 
> 
> A&L Goodbye...


 
how can they possibly know that if no offers have yet been made? Did the A&L PR person come out and say it? not that i doubt the credibility of IT but just wondering...


----------



## trainee201

it is in the backpage section which is for unofficial information that has been validated. So although this has not come through their PR channel it has come from perhaps partners or people within the firm. The Irish Times wouldnt cover something like that if it was a slander.
Im trying to find it online to show yous but only have the hard copy as proof!

It said their partners were taking cuts and bonuses were being removed in there.. 

o and theyve already made offers to their interns 2009 is full


----------



## theo2008

I don't know how to post a link 'cause I'm a simpleton.
But I just googled "a&l goodbody irish times business december" and it came up.


----------



## Jev

trainee201 said:


> o and theyve already made offers to their interns 2009 is full



Well this was the impression I got at their open evening at their offices, it's very rare that any firm has many openings for the next year, at least that's what I've been hearing anyways? It doesn't affect me either way at any rate...

edit: I got that link there once you posted up the details, couldn't find it when searching on the site for some reason and on Google I was searching for "A&L" although the article uses AL

Anyways, I'm trying to understand what this means, i.e. one year contracts post-training or one year traineeships (the reason I ask is I didn't think it was possible for the latter and just want to clear any confusion up!)


----------



## cjak

_"The credit crunch is impacting our legal eagles. Leading firm AL Goodbody is now offering trainee solicitors one-year contracts, in line with its peers. Partners and other senior management are also having their bonsues cut."_
[broken link removed]


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Sooo for all of us that are not looking at a traineeship for 2009 can maybe not be too heart broken. A one year contract??! As much as I want one - that still would leave you with one anxious year! I'm guessing it's a precautionary measure in case the whole economy goes belly up but on the other side - when are people who want to be solicitors going to have a moment to relax?! Fair enough most other areas of jobs are going to say that they're in a state of confusion and instability too but with the whole ap'ship hunt thing to begin with - we were already at a disadvantage to begin with. 

for me - i've given up on the idea of being in Blackhall for 2009. I'm not going to waste my time (or nerves!) anymore sending out CV's to the detriment of the job i'm doing right now. I've put enough on hold (trying to get a traineeship since 2007) and it's nearly a relief realising that I can take a year off (so to speak) from wishing I was anywhere but from where I am. 

How is everyone else going to handle not being in b'hall 2009?


----------



## LDGantly

Anyways, I'm trying to understand what this means, i.e. one year contracts post-training or one year traineeships (the reason I ask is I didn't think it was possible for the latter and just want to clear any confusion up!)[/quote]

that has to mean the former. they cant offer you a one year TC can they? I think you're right in saying that its not possible (law society rules). 
would people still accept training offer if yee knew it was only for one year?
Ive an interview there in jan...will be interesting to see what happens? anybody else have an interview there?

no word yet from Dillon Eustace(although someone mentioned a pfo from them last week)/Hanby Wallace/lk shields/Frys.....i would expect the latter two to get back to us this week


----------



## lawgrad

Thanks for the advice.  I'm not looking to formulate answers so they appear rehearsed, it's more to conquer my nerves and experience a mock interview.  I looked into Carr Communications and it looked as if it's a two day thing, ie that they record you and you come back another day to see how you've improved.  Was that the case for ye?  I would have to go to Dublin from Cork and not exactly willing to go twice!!

BTW, I got a PFO from Dillon Eustace (via e-mail) last week.  I think it's a bit unusual that we have heard nothing from BCM (not even a confirmation e-mail), which makes me wonder whether they are actually recruiting and advertised only for their PR?!


----------



## LDGantly

its definately a one day thing-about 2 hours. if you want to conquer your nerves, there's no better way of doing it than getting them to give you a hard time-trust me!


----------



## LDGantly

irishlawgirl, you seem to be a very determined person, therefore (I know thats it hard, given the amount of times you've applied) I would say not to give up and that something will come your way soon. Whats for you wont pass you by!
would you not think of applying in the UK? as far as i know work experience is a MAJOR factor (from reading threads on trainee solicitor.co.uk and rollonfriday.com) over there when it comes to applying for TC and you seem to have plenty of it, as well as decent grades? might be an option...


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Cheers for the advice LDGantly - it's just after having doing the fe1's (and it's not just a question of the exams, it's the time not working while doing them so it all adds up) and to go to the UK that means more expense and then to qualify back over here or do the transfer test exams.. i've met one guy who did that - qualified over in the UK - and could only get a paralegal position in a big law firm  here -  so definitely a bit dubious about how people are treated over here after qualifying in the Uk.

I'm certainly determined but after a while i'm afraid having been so determined and still coming up empty handed - it may be a reflection on me (in what way i'm not sure!).


----------



## LB25

Having decided not to spend a THIRD year looking for an apprenticeship and to focus on trying to get alternative employment/study I am freaking out! I was optimistic that having a law degree, a masters in law and legal work experience would be seen positively regardless but I have failed to get any job of any kind:-(
I've gone for public sector jobs, legal secretary, banks, NGO's (my masters was in human rights law) and even random receptionist jobs and got nothing. 
I badly need advice. I have huge debts since college and since taking time off work three years ago to do the FE'1s. I can't find any work, let alone an apprenticeship.
Anyone else in the same boat or am I just cursed?! I feel like I've tried everything. I'm not even fussy about location providing the job is decent. 
I thought about returning to college to do a PHD or another masters but I cannot afford it and theres no assistance out there for people who already have a post-grad. My university won't advise me because its over 4 years since I graduated.


----------



## LDGantly

the only conceivable reflection that such determination might have on you, is that you really, really want to become a solicitor, more so than a lot of people! so stick to it and something will come up, maybe even when you least expect it. In relation to qualifying in the UK....i still think its no harm applying and seeing what happens (that was my alternative). They have this huge concept of "vacation schemes" (their alt to internships) which play a huge role in people obtaining TCs further down the line, with the firm that they did the vac scheme with....apparantly, easter is when people usually apply for those, and august when people apply for TCs. You never know, you might get an offer and might actually like the firm and living in the UK and might not want to move back home, and if you do, that guy you talked to is just one example of someone who couldnt find a job after qualifying in the UK, and i would doubt that it is any sort of reasonable reflection on employment prospects of people with UK qualifications.
is there any chance of the firm with which you are paraligalling offering you a TC?


----------



## Irishlawgirl

LB25- I would be in a similar boat to you vis a vis waiting for so long for a'ship however as you are out of work at an abysmal time - I would strongly recommend joining some sort of recruitment agency or applying to big firms for a legal sec job - although I know a lot of secretaries have been let go recently in the big firms. You could however as you already have legal experience try for a job in retail - coming up to Xmas there's always places willing to take people on to cover the "xmas rush" - but again - there's always a bit of luck involved. I would just try get a job right now if I were you to tide you over and not to be too overlyl concerned with getting the "right" job as you said you've already got experience therefore you could afford (exeperience-wise) to forgo searching for a legal job (which are very few and far between) and just go hell for leather for any job retail/otherwise. 

It's just a thought.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

LDGantly said:


> is there any chance of the firm with which you are paraligalling offering you a TC?



Not a chance!! They've interviewed me two years in a row! Very nice of them - wasn't it?!! I would recommend to everyone out NEVER INTERVIEW IN A FIRM THAT YOU WORK IN - IT'S HELL!

That's off my chest now. As for the U.K. as determined as I am, I would hate the thought of "setting up shop" over there and then settling down and then having to come back here and start all over again - I will be 27 next year and would rather remain here (remain/unable to move!!) and perhaps get an a'ship in a tiny firm and work my way up from there. What a state the whole economy has gotten us all into - as if (and as cliche as this sounds) the whole a'ship thing wasn't hard enough to begin with!! 

Perspective: there's people newly qualified offering to work for free right now in the south of Ireland. 

I think i've just given up being disappointed that i'm no longer holding out any hope for 2009.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

LDGantly said:


> They have this huge concept of "vacation schemes" (their alt to internships) which play a huge role in people obtaining TCs further down the line, with the firm that they did the vac scheme with....apparantly, easter is when people usually apply for those, and august when people apply for TCs.




Might just look into this for the next twenty mins! There's no harm I guess! My only worry with this route is that having not gone to Trinity - the UK won't recognise any other college! ahhh hurdle hurdle hurdle!!


----------



## l.m

i have to admit its kinda nice to see other ppl suffering from the rejection im suffering from to.  I blame the law society in this country, we pay them so much money to do exams and stuff and they give us no help securing our careers, instead they allow hundreds and hundreds more ppl sit the FE1's and end up stuck for a training contract like all us!
by the way has any1 heard anything from BCM????


----------



## Jev

l.m said:


> I blame the law society in this country, we pay them so much money to do exams and stuff and they give us no help securing our careers, instead they allow hundreds and hundreds more ppl sit the FE1's and end up stuck for a training contract like all us!



Sorry but I can't agree with that! They are there to train people etc and it's essentially up to you to have a contract prior to doing your FE-1s, if you choose to do it the other way round then you can't blame them.


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## lam

I wouldn't expect much from BCM til after Xmas. I got an interview with them last year and I wasn't called until mid-January. Thought they'd forgotten about me (which in a way I was happy about cause I was scared of doing the PowerPoint presentation) and then they phoned me!


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## l.m

do you mind me asking lam did u get offered a contract with bcm???
and jev while i understand its up to us to get a training contract i do think the law society should in some way try and curtail the ampount of ppl stuck in limbo.


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## ellieg82

i wholeheartedly agree, 

The law society ought to be, in some way, incentivising law firms to take on trainee's....

can't understand why there is such a shortage of places. 

only people with eight fe1's should be contracted, and tax breaks or some other incentive used to encourage the creation of trainee positions.

we are cheap labour...i'd even work for free now, just to qualify.   

with every round of results we're up against more competition. 

its freaking me out the more i think about it.


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## l.m

Yes i totally agree with you.  I dont mind work all hours of every day for nothing to get to the finish line.  ppl with their FE1'S got should be given priority these days.


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## Pulped

> ppl with their FE1'S got should be given priority these days.



I totally disagree, the best candidates should be given priority and it should be for the firm to judge who that is. Passing the exams indicates only that someone has a certain base level of knowledge. A firm is going to be stuck with a trainee for at least two and half years and they need to be sure that the person they hire is the right fit for them.


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## l.m

obviously pulped that goes without saying but, i my opinion is that if there is two equally good canditates and one has FE1'S got and one hasn't, i think the person with the FE1's secured should be given priority at that stage.


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## Card

I think what needs to be realised as well is that in the last numbers of years an unsustainable number of trainees have been attending the professional practice courses and qualifying. The level could not continue. 
It is already acknowledged I believe that we have the highest level of lawyers per head in the world. 

I know its frustrating, but that's life. No one is entitled to an apprenticeship, everyone has to work hard to get theirs and the reality  is that perhaps rightly there is not enough to go around. The numbers qualifying in the last 4-5 years could not and should not be sustained. 

Sorry if I sound harsh, but that is how I see the reality to be


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## lawhead1

Dillon Eustace' calls for interviews are out this week before friday, and Willam Fry's are out this week too.......just said id let ye know!


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## ellieg82

The Law Society never made any attempt, regardless of the clear over-supply of trainees and the inevitability of the situation we are now faced with, to curb the numbers of people taking the FE1's, they happily took the money of all of us deluded wannabe lawyers. 

Gotta say I'm quite bitter....


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## Irishlawgirl

Just received PFO from Dillion Eustace............!!!!!!!!!!!  Quel surpris?!  Why don't they just say HOW many they're taking on (just as a footnote in their letters?!?!). I'd feel better.


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## Spy

Wow Dillon Eustace must be the only firm sending out PFOs before invites to interview. I fell almost honoured to have got mine last Friday.


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## LDGantly

WFry PFOs are out...


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## lam

Hey l.m, I got through to the second interview and then bottled it with the PowerPoint presentation (I was right to be scared!).


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## Lalala85

Crap...got a PFO!!! I am totally confused! I have a first class honours degree, plenty of legal experience, and loads of extra-curricular activities!!!! WTF???? I feel sooo disheartened!


----------



## Jev

PFO here too, added to the collection to keep the others happy!


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## LDGantly

Lalala85 said:


> Crap...got a PFO!!! I am totally confused! I have a first class honours degree, plenty of legal experience, and loads of extra-curricular activities!!!! WTF???? I feel sooo disheartened!


 
Exactly the same here +a foreign language....what do they want and how many are they actually interviewing? They cant be doing too bad financially as they appointed a new managing partner a few weeks ago


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## LDGantly

Jev, if I remember correctly, you got an interview with A&L? what do you make of the recent IT publication? as i have an interview there too. Do you know of anyone who has been to A&L interviews? what are they like?


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## lawgradgal

Hey im new to this forum but have found it so helpful I was compelled to join!! Just regarding William Fry (have just received my PFO too!) one of my friends who got a traineeship there was due to start in 2009 but got a letter saying he had to start in 2010 so I imagine the number of interviewees this time is extremely small (if any) if 2010 is already full! Hope that softens the blow for some of you guys- I feel ur pain I am in the same boat have been applying the last 2 years did B&L, LLM in UCD, 6 FE-1's and worked as a legal secretary in a local law firm for 8 months and to date no interviews whatsoever!


----------



## Jev

LDGantly said:


> Jev, if I remember correctly, you got an interview with A&L? what do you make of the recent IT publication? as i have an interview there too. Do you know of anyone who has been to A&L interviews? what are they like?



Yep I've an interview with them...with regard to that piece in the IT I'm not worrying too much, once I get a traineeship (hopefully!) I'll be happy. 
The piece suggests that other large firms have already taken the same approach as well but the point to focus on is the fact that most of these firms realise if they take too sharp of a short-term view, they may end up lacking in 'new blood' when the economny takes off again, whether it be another 3 or 5 years. I'm only looking to start in 2010 so by the time my training is finished, the economic situation will be considerably different to now. 

I've only heard about interviews for interships for A&L; they ask a few current legal/business affairs questions and it's fairly relaxed as far as I know


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## LDGantly

thanks jev. I would also have serious doubts about them offering 1 year training contracts. surely that meant 1 year contracts for newly qualified solicitors. anyway...will just have to wait and see what happens..


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## lawhead1

anyone get an interview with W Fry?


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## lawhead1

Oh and re the piece about A&L in the irish times, I would say that it means a one year contract after training, however it could be a means of cutting costs by just training for 1 year and identifying the best trainees to retain after that year


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## Sarah2

i did actually, which is strange cos i didnt get one last yr with them, and i didnt get one for a&l or mccanns. Means theyre interviewing anyway altho i doubt theyll be taking many on so i'm sure i havent too great a chance!It seems that the firms have very different opinions on what they're looking for this year. In previous years most people that got an interview for one of the big5 firms, got more than one if not them all. This year it doesnt seem to be like that at all.


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## mrstayto

A firm cannot take you on as a trainee for one year. Its all or nothing. What was written about in the IT was that some newly qualified solicitors who would previously have been offered permanent positions are now being offered one year contracts instead. If you're still concerned about this, please phone the Law Society.


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## Irishlawgirl

Got my PFO from William Fry! Wonderful!! Was interviewed by them last year so perhaps I burned my bridges!! I am sick of this. So far only thing i'm waiting on is ODSE. (and of course to win the lotto!). 

Disheartening is not the word - i've given up worrying about it. It's not going to happen for 2009. Sooo what age will I be in B'hall?? If it's 2010 - I will be 28 !! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh Wonderful!! 

2010.. can't believe it! (and even then... who knows what way the whole "economy" will be - could it be worse??


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## Spy

Got my PFO too from Frys - no surprises there. i always find their form the most obnoxious to fill in. 
i don't want to risk sounding like George Lee here but according to the economic experts, the ecomony is supposed to get worse in 2009 and for 2010 to be the worst year.


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## Irishlawgirl

??!!

Ah perhaps i'm an optimist but I think there will be a turn for the better by end of 2009 so 2010 should be better than now. Worst problem at the moment is the uncertainty. 

With regard to the effect of the economy on traineeships - I think 2009 will be the lowest entry level ever! However, unfortunately for those of us not going in to 2009 - it means that there will be *an amount* applying for 2010 so even if the economy does improve - we will again be up against pretty bad odds. 

ahhh!! Kinda makes me appreciate this flaming painful job i'm in!!


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## lawgradgal

Just wondering about MHC, if u didnt get that e-mail about the summer internship does that amount to a PFO? im guessing yes!


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## Spy

You are right Irishlawgirl - what ever happens, the situation will not be favourable. It's a classic Catch 22 isn't it! 

Lawgradgal, I would ring MHC and get an answer out of them. Is anyone going to bother applying for their internship by the way?


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## cjak

nah did a few last year and got nothing out of it 
think im going travelling because this is all dragging me down!


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## LDGantly

hi guys, here's some useful info i acquired on a different blog site:

*The UK route is not an easy option. Having said that, excellent grades at Leaving Cert and degree level will open a lot of doors - first-class is first-class, after all. Recruitment is on merit and not on connections a lot of the time, which significantly differs from the Irish system. Being Irish is not a significant disadvantage to TC-hunting, but the only thing I have come across is the need to convince firms that I have a good life here in the UK, have some roots and would not just feck off home once I'd got the qualification under my belt and leave them high and dry.

I have a 2.1 + LLM from UCC, and I qualified this year, with one year working between LPC and TC to get some good quality UK legal experience. Pretty much a tick-box career, except that I'm not practising at the moment, for a variety of reasons.

There are still a lot of firms recruiting trainees at the moment, even though the economic downturn has hit hard here too. If you are serious about qualifying at all costs, and have good or top grades, then I would recommend applying NOW for vac schemes (see CVMailUK for the ones taking applications online). These are the best ways to get in front of the firms and show what you can do. I never did one, and I regret that. Then just apply like mad - apply, apply, apply, for everything going, and with luck, if you are good enough, you'll hook a TC before you start the LPC. If not, there's always hope that you will secure one afterward, but it's no secret that the outlook has become grimmer in the last year or so for anyone wishing to work in law. It takes a lot of motivation to keep applying in the face of seemingly endless rejection, but for most people, the payoff is there.

The only ones I would counsel against are those students with a 2.2 or below. Really, it's not going to be worth their time given that they'll be moving abroad to try set up a new life as well as having lower starting prospects than most trainee candidates - it's a double disadvantage.*


----------



## the champ

Hey folks

Just came across this thread - its really informative.

Just looking for some advice and feedback from you guys.
I received an offer from Cox this morning and also have offer from MOP from internship this summer. Just wondering has anyone got experience of these places as im racking my brains as to which one to accept. Also got interview with Fry's but think I would opt for the current two offers over Fry's but may do interview just to get a sense of the place - you never know it could change my mind.

Anyway any feedback that you could provide would be much appreciated- thanks


----------



## Sarah2

Hey the champ, just wondering were u on the waiting list for cox, or how come u only got the offer today? Well done on your two offers- theyre both great firms!


----------



## lawgrad

Personally I think I would choose Arthur Cox, you can't beat the no.1 firm at the end of the day!  Depends which you got a better feel for..


----------



## LDGantly

have many of yee heard from dillon eustace? or are all the pfo's out tomorrow?


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## Irishlawgirl

LDGantly said:


> have many of yee heard from dillon eustace? or are all the pfo's out tomorrow?



got mine a few days ago via e-mail.


----------



## lawjobs

Its very strange about dillon eustace.. the first person to say they'd heard from them seems like ages ago but then a lot of people still waiting. They're pretty much only ones im waiting to hear from now. 

Well done champ, I wouldnt stress too much bout either.. the hard part is done!! And they're both good firms. 

Any tips for MOP? I feel sooo unprepared for interview.. im going away for new year too i.e. right before it..ahhh!


----------



## Cluless

Hey guys,

I was wondering if anyone could help me out with this one.

I have an interview with Dillion Eustace. I am just wondering what to expect.

I would love some advice from ppl who have had interviews with them, done apprenticeships with them or worked for them.

Thanks in advance


----------



## galwaygirl24

Have an interview with Dillon Eustace sometime in early January. They are being very sketchy with details..............its like Mission Impossible or something. And whats with the 15 minute time limit? Curiouser  and curiouser!! Has anyone actually done an interview with them before or know what they are like?


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## Lalala85

got an interview with ODSE today...anyone else??? Tips anyone??


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## Cluless

yeah tips about O'Donnell Sweeney and Eversheds that would be great too.

Thanks in advance.


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## Mag

Hi guys, 

I had a meeting(a pseudo interview if you will!!) with a solicitor today in my home town. He spent around ten minutes telling me how this profession is f****d. The bottom has fell out of the legal profession. He told me that there is no prospects at all at the moment. Now I know we all know this, but it was just hit home more coming straight from the horses mouth. More interestingly he informed me that Arthur Cox are going to be letting all of their apprentices go after they're qualified. This is the same for a large majority of trainees in all firms.As well he was warning me that the general public hate solicitors. Hate. Basically he was asking me do I have anything else I want to do and to go for that as opposed to becoming a solicitor. 

Just thought I'd share the info, because I know that anyone who gets PFO's from everywhere (and I mean everywhere) gets discouraged. Its so sickening that all these firms came to college and maintained that everything was fine and encouraged us all to apply, and then not take on any trainees or take on the bare minimum. It's all a big pile of PR crap, they just don't want to let on that they are suffering, more than any other profession. Getting rejected from absolutely EVERYWHERE does get you down, but we have to remember its not us... it's the economy!!


----------



## lawgrad

hey guys, just wondering when did you hear from ODSE? And was it a letter or e-mail?  I haven't heard anything from them yet...


----------



## ellieg82

Mag said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I had a meeting(a pseudo interview if you will!!) with a solicitor today in my home town. He spent around ten minutes telling me how this profession is f****d. The bottom has fell out of the legal profession. He told me that there is no prospects at all at the moment. Now I know we all know this, but it was just hit home more coming straight from the horses mouth. More interestingly he informed me that Arthur Cox are going to be letting all of their apprentices go after they're qualified. This is the same for a large majority of trainees in all firms.As well he was warning me that the general public hate solicitors. Hate. Basically he was asking me do I have anything else I want to do and to go for that as opposed to becoming a solicitor.
> 
> Just thought I'd share the info, because I know that anyone who gets PFO's from everywhere (and I mean everywhere) gets discouraged. Its so sickening that all these firms came to college and maintained that everything was fine and encouraged us all to apply, and then not take on any trainees or take on the bare minimum. It's all a big pile of PR crap, they just don't want to let on that they are suffering, more than any other profession. Getting rejected from absolutely EVERYWHERE does get you down, but we have to remember its not us... it's the economy!!



So Mag, what ya gonna do???

I've been having similar thoughts...but having got all my FE1's I've v reluctant to let this go... but then again...apparently there was an article in Indo/IT yday re the desperate situation that prevails in the legal profession.....you know solicitors losing jobs, massive oversupply of trainee's....v v bleak picture painted indeed. Anyone read it?? If so someone post up the link, have searched but can't find. 

Been working in a small v specialised lawfirm for last two months, we're beyond busy...but don't think i'd want my traineeship there, its too specific and the solrs i work under are unbelievably disorganised, REALLY. 
So my thoughts are, try look for a traineeship this year...if unsuccessful I'll throw in the towel, this sItuation is only gonna get worse, not better. The legal profession is not what it was

what are peoples views on this?


----------



## Mag

Ellig82, I'm still in final year, but the plan was to do my blackhalls when I finish, and it's still the plan, but the solicitor who was I met with promised he'd do his best to either place me with him, or with a colleague, however that could change!! If I don't get a traineeship then I'm going to do an LLM or just feck off travelling for a while, living off my wits! One of the things I didn't realise though was that solicitors are employed in more sectors than I realised..like the ESB, Bord Gais etc etc.. We just have to keep our eyes open, they managed it in the 80's and so will we! Stick it out anyways and qualify, and then a lot more doors will open for you career wise.


----------



## ellieg82

What's killing me is that there's nothing else I want to do!

I'm not gonna bail just yet, my next steps require serious thought...for now I have a secure job in the right industry and that's all that matters. I can sit tight, have 5 years to get a traineeship, and at this rate I may well need them!


----------



## Lalala85

got a phone call from ODSE at around 4 today!


----------



## Incamera

Mag said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I had a meeting(a pseudo interview if you will!!) with a solicitor today in my home town. He spent around ten minutes telling me how this profession is f****d. The bottom has fell out of the legal profession. He told me that there is no prospects at all at the moment. Now I know we all know this, but it was just hit home more coming straight from the horses mouth. More interestingly he informed me that Arthur Cox are going to be letting all of their apprentices go after they're qualified. This is the same for a large majority of trainees in all firms.As well he was warning me that the general public hate solicitors. Hate. Basically he was asking me do I have anything else I want to do and to go for that as opposed to becoming a solicitor.
> 
> Just thought I'd share the info, because I know that anyone who gets PFO's from everywhere (and I mean everywhere) gets discouraged. Its so sickening that all these firms came to college and maintained that everything was fine and encouraged us all to apply, and then not take on any trainees or take on the bare minimum. It's all a big pile of PR crap, they just don't want to let on that they are suffering, more than any other profession. Getting rejected from absolutely EVERYWHERE does get you down, but we have to remember its not us... it's the economy!!



I'm just finishing my training, about to go out into the big bad world, and have to say, it is a bad time to be looking for an apprenticeship. While the economy was certainly worse in the 1980's, there was fewer qualified solicitors and few qualifying each year. 

In the town I'm based in, newly qualifieds are being let go after their first year qualified, and very few trainees are being kept on.

Even if the economy does recover in the next 18-24 months, does Ireland need as many solicitors as were needed in the conveyancing boom?

That being said, a lot the professions are in trouble at the minute, architects are being fired by the truckload, pharmacists are facing deregulation, engineers are being left go as construction dries up, others are losing their jobs as American firms cut back, this downturn is far wider than just the law community.


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

Incamera said:


> *That being said, a lot the professions are in trouble at the minute, architects are being fired by the truckload, pharmacists are facing deregulation, engineers are being left go as construction dries up, others are losing their jobs as American firms cut back, this downturn is far wider than just the law community.*



It's certainly true that jobs are scarce in many sectors. But the biggest problem with law is the fact that you leave college after X number of years without actually being qualified to do anything. Of course it's tough for engineers, architects, nurses, pharmacists etc. But at least they graduate with the title of engineer, architect, nurse, whatever. I've a law and language degree and a masters.... and basically after 5 years of college, (4 of them at the tax-payers expense) my qualification title is "graduate"! 

As for Darwinian theories that the best will survive etc, I believe that is true in relation to the top firms who ostensibly recruit on merit. But the fact remains that in firms around the country, it's more about who you know, than what you know. I think it's time to establish a single course for access to the solicitor profession (although one which can be administered in several Universities), [with entry based on leaving cert points (I know it's a crude enough instrument for assessing intelligence, but as has been said elsewhere, essentially, the law involves retaining vast amounts of knowledge, so anyone able to memorize vast quantities of notes must be suited to law!! And at least you'll know that at the end of the 5year course or whatever, you'll definitely be a qualified solicitor), and perhaps a graduate entry-option (involving assessment)], that provides an education in the theory of law and the practicalities of life as a solicitor. And there should be a limited amount of places on the course, based on sustainable numbers entering the profession annually. Because I don't care what the bleating hearts at the Competition Authority say about barriers to entry etc - the greater good is better served by having realistic expectations and some control over the system. And I'm not just talking about the greater good of lawyers - I'm talking about the greater good of the economy generally: I find it such a waste that there's an excessive amount of my peers, who have good law degrees, either forced to rely on unemployment benefit because they're (a) overqualified for the most menial of jobs, or (b) underqualified for any position that might have some relevance to their degree, or else working in a low-paying job that they were fortunate enough to secure but not earning enough to make a decent contribution to the economy through taxes etc. I find it sickening that almost every year, new law courses are being introduced at Universities, with that nonsense caveat that "so many industries regard a law degree highly". Maybe a lot of them regard a legal _*qualification*_ highly but I've yet to see companies actively recruiting someone with just a law degree.


----------



## lawhead1

Lawyerlygrad, excellent piece of writing. I 100% agree something needs to be done with regard to how law degrees are handed out ad nauseam and in effect this degree on its own will NOT get you a job, the profession is becoming somewhat of a joke!


----------



## LDGantly

Now this is an excellent piece of writing: [broken link removed].


----------



## lawsue

hi everyone,
Ive been reading this forum for a long time, its really very good. I have a year to go before qaulification and Im in a small general practice down the country. I know in my heart of hearts I will either be joining the dole queue, or searching for alternative employment this time next year when its my turn to get my parchment, all this after nine years of education..unless things take a drastic turn for the better and we all know the chances of that happening!Its hard not to feel bitter about it, no matter how hard you try and console yourself as the hard fact of the matter is the law society took our money, gave no thought to the unsustainable numbers they were taking in and the countless numbers of students that they were duping into believing that they could actually work as solicitors in this country. I oftentthink my bitterness is measured by the question I still ask myself: 'Would I advise any new leaving cert student to choose law?' Unless you are prepared for years of hard slog with no gaurantee of a job at the end, while similtaneously devoting the best years of your life to this fool hardy pursuit, then the answer would resolutely be no!!..we can only live and hope, to all of you still on the hunt I wish you all the very best of luck..Keep up the informed discussion on these boards too!
lawsue


----------



## dave28

Mag said:


> More interestingly he informed me that Arthur Cox are going to be letting all of their apprentices go after they're qualified. This is the same for a large majority of trainees in all firms.


This is not accurate information. Of 26 trainees qualifying at AC around now, 20 are being kept on, 6 let go.


----------



## LDGantly

dave28 said:


> This is not accurate information. Of 26 trainees qualifying at AC around now, 20 are being kept on, 6 let go.


 
Thanks for that confirmation dave28.


----------



## Mag

dave28 said:


> This is not accurate information. Of 26 trainees qualifying at AC around now, 20 are being kept on, 6 let go.



Thats just what he told me, but when they come to college bragging on about their "100% retention" rate! makes you wonder..


----------



## Mag

I have a question, has anyone done or is doing the LLM  in Trinity? I'm thinking about doing it but I'd really appreciate peoples feedback from it. Thanks


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Mag said:


> I have a question, has anyone done or is doing the LLM  in Trinity? I'm thinking about doing it but I'd really appreciate peoples feedback from it. Thanks



hey - was thinking of doing it myself and have done a good bit of research on it - and what stumped me was: I was asked what will I do at the end of it? 

Not guaranteed a traineeship and also from looking at a lot of trainees in teh big firms - they're usually taken while in college. My reason for wanting to do the LLM was to get a good traineeship - however it doesn't, from my experience, give one that edge. It will also be a question of what will the market be like upon graduation which, from reading a lot of forecasts for the coming year or so - doesn't look like by the time qualifying from the LLM, that much will have changed - bar spending a lot of money and working very hard. 

My outlook above is  a bit gloomy however forewarned is forearmed!


----------



## ramble

This thread is so depressing, lots of young talent being wasted.  The bottom line is that there are just too many solicitors, too many law graduates.  The universities like law courses because they bring prestige and attract smart students but are very cheap to provide.  The law society can't restrict entry and they can employ lots of solicitors to provide the courses.

I've been a solicitor for over 15 years, am dedicated, have never been complained to the law soc, or sued or lost anybody's money but I'm not even approaching well off, if I was the main breadwinner in the household we couldn't make ends meet.

The costs of just existing as a solicitor are increasing every year, the insurance doubled this year.  The public want cheap, for example a will, a basic legal service.  The public think this should cost about €100.  But it usually takes two appointments, the first at least an hour, then another hour to draft it, plus all the letters and attendances that have to be prepared to avoid being sued by a disgruntled beneficiary. At least 3 hours work by a highly qualified and experienced individual with very high overheads most of which are there to protect the client.

Bad as things were in the early 90's at least there were fewer qualifying.  It took me 8 years to qualify.  I would have been better off taking an entry level job in the public service or other large company, I would certainly be earning more and might even have a pension. And the customers couldn't sue me!

Good luck to you all, I don't envy you.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Anyone get a PFO from ODSE???


----------



## Jev

Irishlawgirl said:


> Anyone get a PFO from ODSE???



Nope but I'm not at my address where the post would be sent to


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

Irishlawgirl said:


> Anyone get a PFO from ODSE???



Just got one there in the post. On Christmas eve. Obviously a firm with a heart.

Happy Christmas to everyone here anyway. Hope 2009 will be good to us all.


----------



## LDGantly

before i forget, happy Christmas to everyone here!!


----------



## Lalala85

Merry Christmas everyone!!!! Hopefully this time next year we'll all have apprenticeships!! That would be the best Christmas present EVER!!!


----------



## Artois

lawsue said:


> hi everyone,
> Ive been reading this forum for a long time, its really very good. I have a year to go before qaulification and Im in a small general practice down the country. I know in my heart of hearts I will either be joining the dole queue
> 
> Ramble:-
> This thread is so depressing, lots of young talent being wasted. The bottom line is that there are just too many solicitors, too many law graduates.


 
Can any of you guys read? the smart money would appear to be focusing on finding a new career. This tread is full of people making trying to save you guys a lot of pain and upset but no-one seems to be taking their advice on-board.

*IF YOU GUYS GET APPRENTICESHIPS NEXT YEAR I HOPE YOU DON'T END UP QUALIFYING TO BECOME UNEMPLOYED LIKE MANY OF MY FRIENDS*


----------



## Cluless

hey all,

I hope you all had a good xmas. I was just wondering if any one has ever had a second interview with BCM, you know the one with the presentation. Don't know what 2expect and would love some advice about it.

Thanks


----------



## darkylarch

ramble said:


> This thread is so depressing, lots of young talent being wasted.



If it wasn't so close to tragic it would be funny to see your post, which I agree with, being immediately followed by another "anyone get a PFO from Firm X" post. I realise that a good number of people are committed to this particular path by now and can't pursue something else without abandoning a good deal of hard work, but those who can pull out at this point and won't; you're on a fool's errand. 

Law doesn't generate work in and of itself, it's a service industry. Without a thriving economy the demand for the service can only go one direction. The difficulties in securing a training contract had materialised before there was any economic downturn so the market, at its peak, was already oversupplied with bright young things competing against each other for limited places. In the current climate the inescapable fact is that many of you just won't get a contract. To continue to pursue it without a plan B is not determination that will be eventually rewarded by a firm, it's lunacy. 

An email went around to all fee-earners in a leading firm on Monday last detailing a career break scheme being offered to everyone with a set amount of post-qualification experience, whereby one can avail of a lump sum to disappear for 1 to 2 years. There is understandably a degree of nervousness in the workplace in response to this and all the other indicators and, if the payroll is not trimmed down by this and the natural wastage of staff, the only conclusion is that fee-earners will be let go, something that that particular firm has not done as yet. 

There is the argument that trainees cost relatively little to employ, which is true, but they're also of relatively little use in producing billable hours and require a much greater degree of supervision by senior staff. Even if trainee numbers are kept up at the levels that they were during the halcyon days, they just won't be kept on once qualified. If you get a contract now with a big firm and things take a turn for the better before you're qualified, it makes more sense for the firm to re-hire anyone who's been cut in the lean times, or to welcome those on a career break back, or to dip into the deepening pool of unemployed solicitors with good workplace experience than to employ a newly qualified solicitor. The experienced solicitors will accept NQ wages to work with a top firm after a lengthy period of unemployment and will take a lot less time to get up to full fee-earning capacity. 

My point is that it's bad, as you all know, and it's not going to get any better for a long time. If I was in your position I would be looking at requalifying in the shortest time possible in a technical discipline (or anything else that you feel you're suited for) and attempting to identify a niche area with some prospects of growth. 

I didn't go through the PFO lottery myself but I can only imagine from reading the posts here how soul-destroying it is. That kind of negativity is not good for anyone's morale. But if you focus on the pluses, you're capable people to have got even this far and there are or will be paths of much less resistance to a comfortable life in a rewarding position. 

While you may love the law and be loathe to give up on the thoughts of a career at the coal face of the profession, at the moment law most certainly does not love you.


----------



## europhile

Lalala85 said:


> got a phone call from ODSE at around 4 today!



It strikes me that it's not a good idea to make oneself so identifiable.  You never know who is reading this thread or, indeed, others.


----------



## ellieg82

doubt she's identifiable from that, unless her name is Lalala!


----------



## europhile

Well, for starters, she's a 23-year-old woman and they phoned her at about 4.00 on the day in question.


----------



## LDGantly

europhile said:


> Well, for starters, she's a 23-year-old woman and they phoned her at about 4.00 on the day in question.


you should really find something better to do with your time


----------



## europhile

I am merely pointing out that people should be more careful.


----------



## Artois

I don't think she needs to worry too much about ODSE. 

They are laying off qualified solicitors and are overstaffed at the moment.


----------



## europhile

Are all of the bigger companies laying off qualified solicitors or "just" trainees?

Are the companies which are laying off trainees taking on a new batch this year?


----------



## lawcareer85

just a random question how many of you actually got interviews with the MOPS/ McCann/ A&L/ Frys???? Did anyone get an interview with all 4???  Has anyone heard ANYTHING from LK Shields or BCM Hamby Wallace??


----------



## lawcareer85

also any tips for an A&L interview?????


----------



## lawcareer85

also, last question, has anyone ever thought of switching careers to accounting.....in order to work in an accounting firm??? What are the jobs like in that sector at the moment?


----------



## irishlawyer1

This thread is very depressing! I  only have one interview with a top 5 law firm this year- WilliamFry. I honestly have no clue how they decide who gets interviewed and I am feeling VERY disheartened!!! I am also very interested in the question posted by law career85 re how many people on this thread actually got an interview with all 5 top law firms??? Moreover, I am not from Dublin and I have been hearing from people that McCanns is a very Dublin-based law firm in that it usually only interviews persons from Dublin....is this correct?


Good Luck everyone!!!!!


----------



## lawcareer85

I have heard that about McCann aswell but i don't know if its trus so any further clarification would be great? Has anyone heard anything from Lavelle Coleman? Just remembered there that I also applied to them and I have heard NOTHING!!!! 

My friend recently did her FE1s again and failed.Shes now 26 and is feeling VERY disheartened by the entire process. She feels that all her study/ work experience/ and Masters were absolutely useless. She is now contemplating returning to college and studying dentistry.

I'm worried that the same will happen to me and that at the age of 26 I still will not have secured a traineeship and that my first class law degree was absolutely USELESS!!!

I SERIOUSLY need some inspiration!!!!

HELP!


----------



## LDGantly

hi guys,

I dont know anyone who has heard from lk shields. I know BCM were making phone calls on the 23rd...dont know if that was all the ringing they are going to do. In relation to Lavelle Coleman, I received an acknowledgement in late october but nothing since.
As far as people getting interviews with all of the top 5, fairplay to people if they have, however i doubt that there are many. I know that people from the top, down to midway in my class (including the top 15%) are struggling to secure a single interview with the top five, but have interviews lined up with other firms. It really does seem like some of the HR offices just randomly pull out CVs/Applications and dial the numbers, mainly because from what i have heard the number of applications this year has been overwhelming. Whatever the case, the policy at McCanns (above all other firms) is beyond me as i have yet to hear of a(let alone know one) single person to have been invited to interview.
In relation to accounting, I know 2 people who studied law with me and instead of applying for law firms applied to the top accounting firms and both got several OFFERS. It seems that accounting firms look favourably upon law students especially if you're thinking of going into tax. However, the numbers taken on by the BIG 4 this year are significantly less than last year. Last year they recruited around 150 each (another non-law friend of mine got offers from all 4...thats how i know). This year they took on about 150 collectively.


----------



## lawcareer85

Crap that means i didn't get an interview with BCM!!!

How annoying since i made it to the second round last year 

I'm soo  confused! 

Did anyone else on this thread get a call from BCM???

Anyone yet hear anything from LK Shields???​


----------



## paulanthony

lawcareer85 said:


> just a random question how many of you actually got interviews with the MOPS/ McCann/ A&L/ Frys???? Did anyone get an interview with all 4???


 
Didn't get McCanns interview but got interview from the other 4. Not too hopeful though as things seem very tight this year.



lawcareer85 said:


> Has anyone heard ANYTHING from LK Shields or BCM Hamby Wallace??


 
Have not heard anything from either of them. I applied for LK a few days late but still got an acknowledgement e-mail. Didn't even get an acknowledgement from BCM. If BCM were making calls before Xmas, it's not looking good!


----------



## lawcareer85

Paulanthony, if you don't mind me asking do you have a first class honours degree??? Are you in final year? And finally, have you applied for these firms before...or is this your first time??

I have finished final year and graduated with a first class honours degree, however I did apply to all five last year and didn't get a single interview with them except Arthur Co x...What am I doing wrong???

Also if I have already applied before, do firms look unfavouably towards me then>
??????


----------



## irishlawyer1

This is soooooooooo depressin!!!

I'm seriously thinking of a new career!!!!

Anyone else with me???


----------



## lawcareer85

*absolutely!!!!





*


----------



## paulanthony

lawcareer85 said:


> Paulanthony, if you don't mind me asking do you have a first class honours degree??? Are you in final year? And finally, have you applied for these firms before...or is this your first time??
> 
> I have finished final year and graduated with a first class honours degree, however I did apply to all five last year and didn't get a single interview with them except Arthur Co x...What am I doing wrong???


 
I'm in final year at the moment and have a high 2.1, which may or may not come up to a 1.1 when I graduate. This is my first time applying for training contracts, although I did send off to 2 or 3 of them for summer internships last March or thereabouts.



lawcareer85 said:


> Also if I have already applied before, do firms look unfavouably towards me then>
> ??????


 
I don't really know the answer to this. From a practical point of view I guess it would vary from firm to firm, or even between different people in the one firm. If I was applying for a second time I would disregard my previous application and start afresh to show I was putting effort into it. 

Also I would concentrate on telling them what I had done since my last app, as in reality this has to be what will change their minds if they rejected you on what you put in last time.

To sum up, I think you may be at a disadvantage if you have applied before, but it is up to you to take advantage of the situation by showing them how you have been proactive in the past year and how you have made yourself a more attractive candidate.

I would practice filling out application forms by applying to some of the London firms. I did this for summer internships last summer and my first few were rubbish but they improved over time and I think this experience has stood to me when filling out recent ones.


----------



## Optimist

Just wanted to add my tuppence worth to this debate. I'm currently in Blackhall having been fortunate enough to start my apprenticeship this year. However, it strikes me that many of the posters on this forum are limiting themselves to a handful of firms in Dublin City centre. There are literally hundreds of solicitor practices in Ireland - why limit yourself to 1% of them. If you want it really badly - be prepared to work ANYWHERE for a couple of years to get your foot in the door - then once you qualify things might be looking up and then specialise in a particular firm if that is what you want... It's madness to sit on your hands for a year just because you didn't get a position with one of the so called BIG firms...


----------



## Jev

darkylarch said:


> I realise that a good number of people are committed to this particular path by now and can't pursue something else without abandoning a good deal of hard work, but those who can pull out at this point and won't; you're on a fool's errand.



LOL, yeah I'm off on my errand so - I'm not just gonna give it up when the going gets a bit tough


----------



## Luckycharm

I have been following this thread for a while as my sister and other half are both Solicitors. She did her apprenticeship in a very small firm and he did his in one of the big 5. She is now doing well and luckilly is in Employment law so very busy while he was involved in construction which is not so rosey.
Just a word of warning though 3 of her friends have been let go in the last few months!!


----------



## LDGantly

Jev said:


> LOL, yeah I'm off on my errand so - I'm not just gonna give it up when the going gets a bit tough


Good for you bud...


----------



## Mag

irishlawyer1 said:


> This is soooooooooo depressin!!!
> 
> I'm seriously thinking of a new career!!!!
> 
> Anyone else with me???



I hear that that accountancy firms look for Law graduates. Thinking of applying there and seeing if I get anything at all, especially in Tax. 

Otherwise I may join the circus, if they'll have me of course, I believe times are tight for the Circus industry as well.


----------



## europhile

lawcareer85 said:


> My friend recently did her FE1s again and failed.Shes now 26 and is feeling VERY disheartened by the entire process. She feels that all her study/ work experience/ and Masters were absolutely useless. She is now contemplating returning to college and studying dentistry.



This sort of thing puzzles me.  Do people just pick the career where they think they will earn the most money?


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

europhile said:


> This sort of thing puzzles me.  Do people just pick the career where they think they will earn the most money?



I would speculate that the girl in question, at the age of 26 has probably given a good 8 years towards qualifying as a solicitor. At this stage, I'm sure she's just picking the career where job prospects are relatively certain. I imagine, europhile, that you're feigning puzzlement in an attempt to be snide.


----------



## europhile

"Bemused" might have been a better choice.


----------



## lawhead1

europhile said:


> "Bemused" might have been a better choice.



Can I ask Europhile what profession exactly are you in? you seem to have an abundance of free time (with over 730 posts) to criticise other peoples comments when perhaps they are just seeking advise rather than the negativity that is present in the majority of your replies.


----------



## Seoda

Hi all...a bit of suspected divine intervention sees me starting an apprenticeship in 2009...a good sized firm and they are only taking me on...I'm giving up a recession proof job to embark on this so am slightly queasy about it (16K?!?) but after all the  hard work and determination I don't want to balk in fear now...my only advice for the applications and interviews would be to just dare to be yourself...they might be looking for a "fit" but so are you and remember that...and its so well worn but its true - if its meant for you it won't pass you by...I have to keep reminding myself I've created the stressful crossroads I'm at (there's a definite cogent argument for career suicide) but for better or worse here goes!...


----------



## rmelly

Jev said:


> LOL, yeah I'm off on my errand so - I'm not just gonna give it up when the going gets a bit tough


 
you'd swear you were on a quest for the holy grail (or the crystal skull) or something, and not a career path to become a leech....sorry, only kidding (a bit anyway).


----------



## rmelly

europhile said:


> This sort of thing puzzles me. Do people just pick the career where they think they will earn the most money?


 
And funnily enough she has picked another career where she will earn the most money. And another closed shop...


----------



## LDGantly

rmelly said:


> you'd swear you were on a quest for the holy grail (or the crystal skull) or something, and not a career path to become a leech....sorry, only kidding (a bit anyway).


Joke or no joke, i struggle to understand why on earth you would spend time on this thread if you're not interested in pursuing a career as what you seem to describe as a "leech". If you ARE interested in pursuing a career as a solicitor, then I suggest you change your attitude.
You must understand that there are people on this thread who genuinely wish to practice law out of interest, challenge and maybe even passion. A lot of these people are struggling to push forward with their career because of the lack of training contracts being offered in the current climate, and then you come along and refer to their chosen and well respected profession as being that of a "leech". That is rude and ignorant my friend.


----------



## Incamera

LDGantly said:


> refer to their chosen and well respected profession as being that of a "leech". That is rude and ignorant my friend.



Spoken like a true student. Being a solicitor is not a well respected profession anymore, imo. The best you can hope for is to be respected for the work you do as a professional, and not simply because you are a member of a profession.


----------



## LDGantly

Incamera said:


> Spoken like a true student. Being a solicitor is not a well respected profession anymore, imo. The best you can hope for is to be respected for the work you do as a professional, and not simply because you are a member of a profession.


Works for me either way.


----------



## rmelly

LDGantly said:


> Joke or no joke, i struggle to understand why on earth you would spend time on this thread if you're not interested in pursuing a career as what you seem to describe as a "leech". If you ARE interested in pursuing a career as a solicitor, then I suggest you change your attitude.
> You must understand that there are people on this thread who genuinely wish to practice law out of interest, challenge and maybe even passion. A lot of these people are struggling to push forward with their career because of the lack of training contracts being offered in the current climate, and then you come along and refer to their chosen and well respected profession as being that of a "leech". That is rude and ignorant my friend.


 
My apologies, no offence intended, I was referring to these chaps: http://www.leech.co.uk/


----------



## Sarah2

just wondering has anyone had an interview with maples and calder. I heard that their interview technique is really different to all the others, so would love some tips....


----------



## europhile

lawhead1 said:


> Can I ask Europhile what profession exactly are you in? you seem to have an abundance of free time (with over 730 posts) to criticise other peoples comments when perhaps they are just seeking advise rather than the negativity that is present in the majority of your replies.



Estate agent.


----------



## lawhead1

europhile said:


> Estate agent.



Explains the free time.


----------



## europhile

Your sarcasm detector may need to be recalibrated.



> Total Posts: 797  Posts Per Day: 0.68


----------



## lawhead1

europhile said:


> Your sarcasm detector may need to be recalibrated.



Not really. You spend your time criticising others comments when you have created such fascinating threads as "the difference between andrews liver salts and alka seltzer" and "where is the best place to get your shoe reheeled".


----------



## europhile

I hope you found them useful.


----------



## Brendan Burgess

As some of you have started resorting to bad language, I am closing this thread.

Brendan


----------



## Brendan Burgess

Folks

We had to close this thread as it was being reported for abusive posts and bad language. 

A few posters asked us nicely to reopen the thread, so we are doing this, but please keep it civil. 

It is a very long thread and I don't intend to read it. Is it something which could be summarised in a Key Post or a FAQ? If someone could do this and we could use it to start off a fresh thread, it might make more sense.

Brendan


----------



## LDGantly

AAAAAAAARGH! Its alive!

So, interviews are more or less over..... where do we all stand? Experiences, comments...feel free to share.


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Brendan said:


> Folks
> 
> We had to close this thread as it was being reported for abusive posts and bad language.
> 
> A few posters asked us nicely to reopen the thread, so we are doing this, but please keep it civil.
> 
> It is a very long thread and I don't intend to read it. Is it something which could be summarised in a Key Post or a FAQ? If someone could do this and we could use it to start off a fresh thread, it might make more sense.
> 
> Brendan



Key post perhaps would be better than FAQ. Topic being - Legal Apprenticeship - advice sought and given


----------



## ellieg82

Thanks Brendan


----------



## thegaffer83

Had a first round interview this day last week,waiting on word still.Got the result of a recheck today as well...didn't go up,still have7 passed, one to go!I'm losing it!No job or money.My mates all have jobs or are travelling but i'm at home watching daytime tv at the age of 24 with 2 months till the next sitting...nice.!


----------



## LDGantly

Was that with BCM? Was the interview hard? Look on the bright side man, at least you've 7 passed! I have yet to sit them. I have no job and am running seriously low on funds. (luckily though i've an a'ppship) Speaking of TV, did anybody watch lost last night? Awesome stuff!


----------



## thegaffer83

No.Was with RDJ.Actually I haven't heard a peep from BCM since I applied now that I think of it.Well it's tough to have a job and study for these exams.Guess i'm fortunate to have dived straight into them straight after college while living at home wasn't a total disgrace (although a yr and a half later i'm the only one of my mates still at home!)
I'm actually becomong very interested in the Seóige show.....mmmm.


----------



## LDGantly

She's cute no doubt! 
Funnily enough I have heard nothing from either RDJ or BCM since applying months ago.
No worries-im still living at home too, though daddy's "alpha male" ways are starting to get on both our nerves-cant wait to move but im still in college so not much point. 
Better go hide, Alpha male is home for lunch! best of luck with RDJ


----------



## l.m

As regards BCM ppl don't hold out hope i had interview with them last july and have heard nothing since, and i heard of ppl attending second round interviews with them two wks ago...........ppl who did not even do first round interview and apparently there offers will be out end of January!!


----------



## thegaffer83

yea I had one with them this time last yr. (with no fe1s done).Seemed to go quite well,but never heard a thing from them afterward.


----------



## l.m

As far as im concerned all they seem to do is mess people around, in fairness if ppl had been called for second round interviews and i wasn't i was obviously rejected , the least they could do is tell me this seen as i went to the trouble of applying and attending interview. I rang and everything and they still wouldn't give me a straight up answer on what was happening.


----------



## LDGantly

That's pretty poor form alright...


----------



## LDGantly

Just read this in the news section of rollonfriday.com: (this is an extract from the article)

"
Still, lawyers worried about redundancy should be grateful that at least   they're not in Ireland. RollOnFriday has heard that some top firms are having   an incredibly tough time, with salaries for associates rumoured to have been cut by   up to 20% - and up to an eye-watering 50% for some trainees."



.


----------



## thegaffer83

I'm having a go at this repeat in March,then going to Australia for a long time to meet up with my mates and just gonna forget about traineeships/legal profession till i'm ready to come home.In all fairness like...f*ck this depression inducing negativity all over the media.I'm at the end of my tether.


----------



## mallow

thegaffer83 said:


> I'm having a go at this repeat in March,then going to Australia for a long time to meet up with my mates and just gonna forget about traineeships/legal profession till i'm ready to come home.In all fairness like...f*ck this depression inducing negativity all over the media.I'm at the end of my tether.



Rollonfriday isn't really 'the media'.  It's solicitors and trainees telling the rest of us what's going on where they are.  How could any of us make decent decisions if we were only ever told 'positive' news?  We'd only be aware of half of reality.  In the legal profession you often get to see more of the negative side of life than the positive.  To be useful to your clients you can't let that depress you.  It's part of the job to think of everything that could possibly go wrong.  So you could look on all the bad news at present as good experience.


----------



## LDGantly

mallow said:


> Rollonfriday isn't really 'the media'.  It's solicitors and trainees telling the rest of us what's going on where they are.  How could any of us make decent decisions if we were only ever told 'positive' news?  We'd only be aware of half of reality.  In the legal profession you often get to see more of the negative side of life than the positive.  To be useful to your clients you can't let that depress you.  It's part of the job to think of everything that could possibly go wrong.  So you could look on all the bad news at present as good experience.


You have a talent for turning negative into positive! Teach me!


----------



## mallow

LDGantly said:


> You have a talent for turning negative into positive! Teach me!


 Do I need to go find my sarcasm monitor?


----------



## LDGantly

thats the one thing i hate about online forums...you never know *how* people are saying what it is exactly they're saying. nope..not sarcastic...great attitude to have


----------



## mallow

thanks!  Now if I could just follow my own advice...


----------



## hickey34

So for everyone who has yet to secure a training contract, what is the plan?


----------



## ellieg82

I'm working as a legal assistant, have 8 FE1's, but at this rate I'll be happy if this year I can hang onto my job, nevermind find a traineeship!


----------



## sammy25

Hi, I had a first round interview with RDJ too and still heard nothing back, have you?  How did you find the interview?


----------



## thegaffer83

sammy25 said:


> Hi, I had a first round interview with RDJ too and still heard nothing back, have you? How did you find the interview?


 Nothing yet...Found it fine though.Only lasted about 10-15 mins i'd say.


----------



## sammy25

You reckon they will get back to people they not calling? Hate having to wait,my interview was about ten mins too and ok was a bit odd I thought! Im working as a legal assistant and its really tedious...just need to get started, was hoping for RDJ coz im from Cork but dont think its looking likely..


----------



## l.m

hey guys, two of you mentioned ye were working as legal assistants. do you mind me asking how ye got those jobs??


----------



## The_Recruit

Hi guys,

I am new to this forum - oh, what a plentiful resource it could have been for me, if only I had thought to look sooner.

Having been disappointed by the torturous interviews in some of the larger Dublin firms last year, this time around I decided to apply only to mid-sized firms, in the hope that there would be less hoops for me to jump through and a less confrontational interview experience.  As it so happens, adopting that tactic this year could have proved to be quite an ill-advised one, since in the end I only got called for interview with one of the ten or so firms I applied to.  To my great relief, after two rounds of interviews, I got an offer.   (For obvious reasons, I do not want to mention the name of the firm that is hiring me here in the public forum, but I will gladly disclose it via private message.)

While obviously I can't give much advice as to what all firms are looking for in thier future trainees, it is my opinion that for the firm I interviewed with it was more a question of "personality fit" than "strong candidate on paper".  I think having all my FE1s was important, since it meant that theoretically  I could to start work tomorrow (and this was asked of me, in the hypothetical, in both interviews.) 

If I had not been made an offer this time, I think I would have tried to get into a firm in London.  And if that plan had failed, I think I would have looked at pursuing an LLM in London.  Luckily, that won't be necessary (provided there's no great calamity between now and October).

Are all the offers out at this stage across the board?  If anyone has any questions for me, I would be more than happy to share my thoughts/experiences with you.  For those of you studying for your FE1s, best of luck!  This economic depression will not last forever - that much is certain.  So keep at it!


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## l.m

The Recruit, can i ask you what sort of degree you have and whether you had legal experience. I have top degree and legal experience and everything and fe1's done and still not even one interview did i get totally disheartened by it all. also would you mind telling me by private message what firm you were successful with? did you apply to that firm last year??
by the way CONGRATS you must be so relieved to have something secured


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## Irishlawgirl

l.m said:


> The Recruit, can i ask you what sort of degree you have and whether you had legal experience. I have top degree and legal experience and everything and fe1's done and still not even one interview did i get totally disheartened by it all. also would you mind telling me by private message what firm you were successful with? did you apply to that firm last year??
> by the way CONGRATS you must be so relieved to have something secured



I.M. I feel for you I really do - i'm in teh same boat and i've just about come to terms with having a good degree,all fe1's, two years experience (paralegal in top 4) further education... and zilch of an a'ship. When you say you didn't get an interview - did you mean get called for an interview or past it? Just curious -  I didn't get called myself but I only applied to the top ten. Was planning on sending out cv's to everyone else but i'm pretty fed up and about as much in the mood for selling myself than I am in believing the economy will turn around in 2009!


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## Bazoo

Irishlawgirl said:


> I.M. I feel for you I really do - i'm in teh same boat and i've just about come to terms with having a good degree,all fe1's, two years experience (paralegal in top 4) further education... and zilch of an a'ship. When you say you didn't get an interview - did you mean get called for an interview or past it? Just curious -  I didn't get called myself *but I only applied to the top ten*. Was planning on sending out cv's to everyone else but i'm pretty fed up and about as much in the mood for selling myself than I am in believing the economy will turn around in 2009!



Who do you (and others posting on this thread) consider to be 'the top ten'? Just out of curiosity.


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## LDGantly

Bazoo said:


> Who do you (and others posting on this thread) consider to be 'the top ten'? Just out of curiosity.



(in my "still student " opinion and in roughly this order order)
Arthur Cox
McCann Fitz
A&L
MOP
W.Fry
BCM Hanby Wallace
Dillon Eustace
Eversheds
Mason Hayes Curran
Beachamps


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## Bazoo

LDGantly said:


> (in my "still student " opinion and in roughly this order order)
> Arthur Cox
> McCann Fitz
> A&L
> MOP
> W.Fry
> BCM Hanby Wallace
> Dillon Eustace
> Eversheds
> Mason Hayes Curran
> Beachamps



I reckon your top 5 are right naturally enough (though not necessarily in that order. Having said that, those five are pretty much interchangeable).

Dillon Eustace and ODSE are considerably smaller than MH+C though. I think BCM is probably smaller than MH+C too.


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## LDGantly

Dillon Eustace and ODSE are considerably smaller than MH+C though. I think BCM is probably smaller than MH+C too.[/quote]


I wasnt aware of that at all. I just assumed that because MHC forfeited their recruitment procedure, they were smaller than DE and ODSE. 
What criteria are we using to differentiate? Size of workforce, profitability, ranking in legall 500/chambers europe/lexis nexis? Or perhaps a combination of everything? How would you list the top 10?
btw this is an interesting article [broken link removed]. I know it dates back to 2005 (peak of boom) but the appropriation of revenues (though maybe not the level!!) cannot be drastically different from what it is at the moment..


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## The_Recruit

l.m said:


> The Recruit, can i ask you what sort of degree you have and whether you had legal experience. I have top degree and legal experience and everything and fe1's done and still not even one interview did i get totally disheartened by it all. also would you mind telling me by private message what firm you were successful with? did you apply to that firm last year??
> by the way CONGRATS you must be so relieved to have something secured





Thanks.

To answer your questions, I have a BCL (2.1 from UCD) completed 3-5 years ago, and a first class masters (non-law).  I have some relevant financial experience, but not specifically "law office" experience (and what little I do have doesn't add up to years either).  The interviews went very well, and I'm sure that's the only reason I got the job.  I probably should add, I am 26 now so perhaps firms are looking for slightly older candidates?  I cannot say!

The impression I am getting at the moment is that there were very few traineeships up for grabs this year - so I was exceptionally lucky to get one.  (To answer your question, L.M., I did not apply to the firm in question last year.)  However, I don't think I have any wonderful skills that others are lacking.  I cannot explain why I got the traineeship over other candidates.  I guess law firms must be inundated with very highly qualified candidates, so getting called for interview might just be a question of luck of the draw.  I understand how frustrating it must be for some of you to have worked so hard in college, and getting your FE1s and relevant work experience, then only to be rejected without so much as a chance to prove yourself at interview.  In fact, getting the interview in the first place seems to be an achievement. 

Why are some of you not even getting first round interviews?  I have no idea - and I can hardly profess to be an expert, since I only got one interview out of all the applications I sent out.  As with any job (and especially one in the professions), everything in your application documents needs to be 100% perfect: no stray commas or missing apostrophes.  Cover letters should be clear and "to the point", and definitely no more than three medium-sized paragraphs in length. 

As disheartening as it is, at the end of the day you have to play the numbers game.  By this I mean that there are a certain limited number of law firms in Ireland, each with a certain limited number of traineeships on offer each year.  The more applications you put in, the higher your chances of getting an interview.  Maybe someone can help work out the statistics/probability of getting a traineeship...  Does the Law Society release the numbers of candidates who pass the FE1s each year?  Is there any way of knowing roughly how many people there are interested in getting a traineeship?  I think that would be very helpful to know.


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## ellieg82

"Does the Law Society release the numbers of candidates who pass the FE1s each year? Is there any way of knowing roughly how many people there are interested in getting a traineeship? I think that would be very helpful to know."

That is a statistic I certainly would rather NOT know, I believe same would shock us all. Not that the Law Soc would ever want to release such a figure anyway....hardly in their interest to do so, in my view.


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## l.m

The recruit thanks for answering my queries, i have no idea where im going wrong guess im lucky i have a job to keep me occupied in the meantime.  congrats tho again on securing it i'd love to feel the relief you  must be feeling!!
Irish law girl i applied to 17 big places including all the ones listed above and only got one interview which i attended last june.....an interview i only got a rejection from the last day! A firm who completely wasted my time since last march and who gave me false hope since then that i would get a training contract with them.  I dont know where to go from here i was contemplating applying for the summer internships but than whats the point seen as they don't think im good enough for interview for training contract  
Wish someone would of told me how hard this was before i embarked on this career choice.  My biggest flaw i think is having no connections in the legal world.


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## Irishlawgirl

l.m said:


> an interview i only got a rejection from the last day! A firm who completely wasted my time since last march and who gave me false hope since then that i would get a training contract with them.




what??! Cannot imagine what that was like!?! Janey - sometimes I really have to remind myself to cop on and stop feeling sorry for myself! I think sometimes, as i'm a bit older (26) and don't know anyone really in the same boat that I think i'm the ONLY person who's gotten a raw deal! Silver lining-i'm in a job. 

As for the question above - who did I consider to be the top ten - same as noted above to be honest. I know three or four bounce between top 15 positions - doesn't really matter really, it's just they have more of a structure to interviews and telling people to PFO!! Ha!


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## thegaffer83

The PFOs are starting to feel a bit more biting...GFYs??


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## seansc1

Has anyone heard anything from Lavelle Coleman? I Contacted them twice for update with no reply whatsoever. I had a response from them last June that my CV was being reviewed but haven't heard anything further.


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## LDGantly

so you're the "I'd love to help those poor shareholders get every penny from Anglo type"? Fairplay. 
I got an acknowledgment of receipt of CV letter back in late October but nothing since.


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## Snowcone

Hey, has anyone applied to Malcomson Law? Their closing date was wednesday 28th of Jan. How long after the closing date do firms usually start calling for interview?


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## thegaffer83

Still no word from RDJ...


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## Spy

Snowcone said:


> Hey, has anyone applied to Malcomson Law? Their closing date was wednesday 28th of Jan. How long after the closing date do firms usually start calling for interview?


 
I applied to them but i haven't heard anything back from them except for an acknowledgement email.


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## clueless247

MOP are advertising a Trainee Solicitor position. The catch? Must have 5 years Legal Exec experience. 

http://jobbank.fas.ie/servlet/Watis...CK=TEMPLATE=WWW_JS_VAC_CRITERIUM_OVERVIEW.HTM


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## Snowcone

Spy said:


> I applied to them but i haven't heard anything back from them except for an acknowledgement email.


 
I didn't even get an acknowledgment email. Maybe I'll call them to make sure they received my application...


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## seansc1

didn't get one either. Sent another email today asking had it been received.


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## LDGantly

AHA! So thats why nobody in my faculty got an interview with them!! Finally! Its all starting to make sense!! kudos to them for finally revealing the criteria


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## Spy

My apologies, i didn't get an acknowledgement email. I got a response to a query i sent them. Sorry!! But it's no harm to follow up on these things. 

Can't believe MOPs are advertising again and asking for 5 years experience is a bit much. Normally places ask for 2 or 3 years tops.


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## Irishlawgirl

Snowcone said:


> Hey, has anyone applied to Malcomson Law? Their closing date was wednesday 28th of Jan. How long after the closing date do firms usually start calling for interview?




I had an interview with them last year - was waiting 45 minutes as the previous interview ran on, I was interviewed by at least 3 people (there may have been a forth in the room, not sure) and they told me they'd get back to me "in due course" - nearly 10 months later.. haven't heard a thing!! 

hope that illustrates their ethos with regard to getting back to people.


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## Irishlawgirl

Spy said:


> My apologies, i didn't get an acknowledgement email. I got a response to a query i sent them. Sorry!! But it's no harm to follow up on these things.
> 
> Can't believe MOPs are advertising again and asking for 5 years experience is a bit much. Normally places ask for 2 or 3 years tops.




May I ask - have you 5 years experience? Seems ridiculous to be honest except in the rare occasion where people have been working in this role then go on to do FE1's.. maybe not so unusual - hmm either way.. I might throw my CV in!


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## thegaffer83

got my last rejection this morning.Promptly went in to book flights to Australia!.I'm outta here.


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## seansc1

thegaffer83 said:


> got my last rejection this morning.Promptly went in to book flights to Australia!.I'm outta here.



Who was sending out rejection letters today?


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## Spy

Irishlawgirl said:


> May I ask - have you 5 years experience? Seems ridiculous to be honest except in the rare occasion where people have been working in this role then go on to do FE1's.. maybe not so unusual - hmm either way.. I might throw my CV in!


 
no i don't have any where near that amount of experience. i'm only been out of college a year and a half and i'm not in a firm so i only have de facto legal experience from my current job. 

who are sending out rejection letters? speaking of which i neither got an interview nor a rejection email from LK Shields and i applied!! what's going on there?


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## seansc1

Spy said:


> no i don't have any where near that amount of experience. i'm only been out of college a year and a half and i'm not in a firm so i only have de facto legal experience from my current job.
> 
> who are sending out rejection letters? speaking of which i neither got an interview nor a rejection email from LK Shields and i applied!! what's going on there?



LK Shields did get back. They are not taking on this year. They sent an email saying thanks for applying. Everyone I know got the same reply saying you defo made the top 10% and should apply again next year. Nice to hear but probs not true.


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## thegaffer83

RDJ.Had an interview with them couple of weeks ago.


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## Spy

well they did not reply to me. the only reason i knew they were contacting people was from the thread on boards.ie. i remember filling in their online form etc but i wonder how good their new system is as i'm now thinking they didn't get my application. not to worry seeing as they aren't hiring in the first place. 

did anyone see that A&L are looking for 45 voluntary redundancies? it's on the IT website today


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## Spy

here's the link:

[broken link removed]


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## thegaffer83

BCM HW rejections are out.There's a blast from the past.Anyway, I don't have "the skills or qualifications" they deem necessary for the role.Funny that because I did last year when I got an interview...


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## l.m

How many interviews did you do with BCM? did you get to final round stage?


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## thegaffer83

No,first round.Got on very well but never heard anything from them after!


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## hickey34

So whats everyones plan? I Applied to pretty much the top 35 firms and managed to get an interview with one, where Im now on the reserve list. Ill only find out when the results are out in June if Ive got it which means someone has to fail an exam, so Im taking it as I havent got this. Do people reckon theres any point at all applying to the small firms or is it just a waste of time? And are people gonna send in applications again to the medium sized firms again before september or is this also pointless?


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## squiddy

Been noticing a trend lately with people i know who are also looking for an apprenticeship, the no pay apprenticeship.  A few people i know have taken the hit on this.  

I have even heard that some places want you to pay, they will then use the money to pay you and make a wee profit out of tax relief.

Hmmm, anyone else experienced this?

It looks like the only possibility i have is going to be one of these no pay apprenticeships as well...

Anyone have any opinions on this or advice on just what the law society would do to you if they found out, i have been trawling through the regulations and they are a bit vague on just what sort of trouble you can get in.

Its the last thing i want to do, but its the only offer on the table.


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## hickey34

How on earth do they manage to do it for no pay? Do the firms make it appear like they're paying? There are minimum pay guidlines provided by the law society so I presume it goes completely in the face of their policy? It would be a bit rough as well trying to pay back loans for Blackhall while earning no cash!!


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## whitegrass

I commenced apprenticeship in 1989 and was paid £70 per week starting off for first six months with small incremental upward changes thereafter. There was little or no complaint from fellow apprentices, that was the way it worked. In the years before that apprentices either worked for free or had to pay for their training.  I would suggest that apprentices, prospective apprentices and the Law Society would re-visit the pay rates for apprentices or indeed waive any requirement for payment.  This may seem unpalatable but one should always look at one's long term goals.


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## Irishlawgirl

squiddy said:


> Been noticing a trend lately with people i know who are also looking for an apprenticeship, the no pay apprenticeship.  A few people i know have taken the hit on this.
> 
> I have even heard that some places want you to pay, they will then use the money to pay you and make a wee profit out of tax relief.
> 
> Hmmm, anyone else experienced this?
> 
> It looks like the only possibility i have is going to be one of these no pay apprenticeships as well...
> 
> Anyone have any opinions on this or advice on just what the law society would do to you if they found out, i have been trawling through the regulations and they are a bit vague on just what sort of trouble you can get in.
> 
> Its the last thing i want to do, but its the only offer on the table.




I think it's an either/or situation. Firm has to pay for either b'hall or while the person is there - they cannot do both. 

As for what is in store for everyone now: all firms who pay for b'hall are GONE. Vamuss! I'm in a job and i'm just glad to have it but as for app'ships - i'll apply to every tiny firm up in Dublin - not from Dublin but every single firm (NOT A GENERALISATION) in Munster /Connacht areas have let a lot of their staff go and this argument that people make that oh sure they'll take on trainees instead and let NQ's go is nonsense - firms will just make the NQ's take the salary of a trainee (why hire someone and then train them up when someone who knows the ropes is there and in this climate would be more than willing to take pay cut). So I am not wasting my time (sounds blaze but I reached the point of being withered at least 12 months ago with that route) sending Cv's out to anywhere but Dublin. 

I know people will say - ooh some small firms down in the country will take a trainee on - hmmm I honestly would have to see it, feel it and touch it to believe it!


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## LDGantly

as far as i know, the big 5 are still paying for blackhall...i havent been told anything...yet


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## Card

irishgirl you are generalising I know personally of a number of firms in the munster area who have not let anyone go

I think we have to realise that regardless of the recession the numbers passing through the law society were unsustainable just compare the numbers who qualified in 2000 to the record 774 who qualified in 2008, the numbers just couldn't keep going, regardless of the recession (which just served to acclerate the process) the work isn't there to suppose the numbers going through the professional courses in Blackhall


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## squiddy

Not an eiter or situation.  

If you don't work for them before blackhall they don't have to pay you during the course, and they don't have to pay for the course anyway from what i understand. 

Whats being offered anyway breaks the rules, no pay, no fees...nothing

If you hand over €16K or so they use this money to pay you so it goes on the books. i am led to believe they make a bit of a profit because they will be paying you from the company's money before tax. 

Not sure how they manage to not pay at all on the books, but do the law society check up on this anyway? goes completely against the rules, that's why i don't want to do it. the last thing you want is to end up in trouble before you are even qualified

Fortunately i dont have to make the decision after all, they don't even have enough work for an unpaid employee... not a good omen


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## Ragon

has anyone heard back from MHC regarding summer internship? they are supposed to get back to people in feb.


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## dazza21ie

squiddy said:


> ....but do the law society check up on this anyway? goes completely against the rules, that's why i don't want to do it. the last thing you want is to end up in trouble before you are even qualified
> 
> Fortunately i dont have to make the decision after all, they don't even have enough work for an unpaid employee... not a good omen


 
The Law Society send out a letter to the training solicitor telling them what the minimum rates of pay are and leave it at that. Even if a trainee brought it to the attention of the Law Society they are unlikely to get any support against the training solicitor. Therefore unscrupulous employers are free to take advantage of trainees if they so wish. It is quite unfortunate because for a while the playing field seemed to have levelled out i.e. you could succeed without any contacts and self finance your way through qualification.


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## mallow

dazza21ie said:


> The Law Society send out a letter to the training solicitor telling them what the minimum rates of pay are and leave it at that. Even if a trainee brought it to the attention of the Law Society they are unlikely to get any support against the training solicitor. Therefore unscrupulous employers are free to take advantage of trainees if they so wish. It is quite unfortunate because for a while the playing field seemed to have levelled out i.e. you could succeed without any contacts and self finance your way through qualification.



Absolutely true.  All kinds of messing with apprentices pay has always gone on.  There is absolutely nothing an apprentice can do about it.  Unless you choose to never work again in the legal profession that is. Partners will justify it on the grounds that they had to put up with worse back in their day, we have it soft now and I'm sure they walked to school in their bare feet too...  And someday if you work really hard you too will get your turn to take advantage of the next generation of apprentices.  (Cynicism button off - obviously this doesn't apply to all firms but the bottom line is apprentices have absolutely no bargaining power, there are millions ready to take your place if you're not willing to take whatever crap you are handed)


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## MOB

"....all firms who pay for b'hall are GONE. Vamuss! "

Just not true.  

Many firms have taken on apprentices on the basis of either a formal or informal understanding that there is no job for the apprentice upon qualification.  There is no compelling reason for such firms to pay for b'hall, and I would not criticise them for not doing so.   

Those firms who are recruiting and training their intended future solicitors will, I am sure, continue to offer the best terms that they can, consistent with economic conditions, including payment of fees.  There are far fewer such firms around right now, but they haven't by any means disappeared.


----------



## mallow

MOB said:


> Those firms who are recruiting and training their intended future solicitors will, I am sure, continue to offer the best terms that they can, consistent with economic conditions, including payment of fees.



I understand what you're saying, but you're dressing it up.  'Consistent with economic conditions' just means supply and demand.  Firms will offer the lowest pay they can get away with to secure the apprentice they want.  The apprentice will accept whatever they are offered because the supply of apprentices willing to work for next to nothing is almost bottomless relative to demand.  A firm will offer as little as they can get away with as to do otherwise would be to provide charity by cutting into their profits unnecessarily, or indeed by causing them a loss.  Many firm who recruit apprentices are not recruiting 'intended future solicitors' at all.  They are recruiting staff members who they fully intend to let go on qualification.  Again, not all, but many.  You may argue that it's not worth the risk for firms to operate on that basis, but I can tell you from experience that many firms have made just that calculation and concluded that it does make economic sense to use apprentices in that way.  There is no point in trainees who are entering the profession not being aware of the reality of their precarious position in it.


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## Irishlawgirl

MOB said:


> "....all firms who pay for b'hall are GONE. Vamuss! "
> 
> Just not true.
> 
> Many firms have taken on apprentices on the basis of either a formal or informal understanding that there is no job for the apprentice upon qualification.  There is no compelling reason for such firms to pay for b'hall, and I would not criticise them for not doing so.



I don't understand when you say it's not true that all the firms who will pay for b'hall are gone as I firmly believe they are. It's not a criticism on the firms who don't pay for b'hall just a statement (of course I could understand WHY most firms don't pay) but as advice for everyone reading this, irrespective of firms ability or inability, want or whatever to pay for b'hall -  I don't believe there is one firm left out there who is looking for an apprentice to start this year in b'hall and who will pay the fees. If this is untrue - I would love to know as I would certainly be applying there!


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## Card

what about your earlier assertion that ALL firms in munster and connaught have left people go,
i know this is not true


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## brenda24

Why engage in such futile speculations? 

I'm surprised to hear opinions being stated as fact with absolutely no concrete evidence to support them.

It's immaterial one way or the other whether firms pay fees for Blackhall or not. The bottom line is that anyone seeking an apprenticeship will accept whatever offer is made to them because they have no doubt put their heart and soul into a degree followed by the FE1s. It is unlikely that many would opt to abandon their chosen career path purely for financial reasons. 

Sweeping statements about what firms are and aren't doing surely serve no purpose whatsoever other than to dishearten others.


----------



## dazza21ie

brenda24 said:


> Why engage in such futile speculations?
> 
> I'm surprised to hear opinions being stated as fact with absolutely no concrete evidence to support them.
> 
> It's immaterial one way or the other whether firms pay fees for Blackhall or not. The bottom line is that anyone seeking an apprenticeship will accept whatever offer is made to them because they have no doubt put their heart and soul into a degree followed by the FE1s. It is unlikely that many would opt to abandon their chosen career path purely for financial reasons.
> 
> Sweeping statements about what firms are and aren't doing surely serve no purpose whatsoever other than to dishearten others.


 
The fee issue for alot of people is very relevant. One has to think can they afford to pay the 14-15k required for the Law Society courses. That is not to mention the cost of living while in Dublin or Cork when attending the course (as you may not be paid by your employer). Normally if someone didn't have this money they would borrow in the expectation that their income upon qualification will dramatically improve and repaying the borrowings will not be a problem. However, if you ask the many newly qualfied solicitors in the country currently earn €204/wk whether they would advise borrowing for the Law Society fees it is highly unlikely they will recommend it.


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## LDGantly

Irishlawgirl I feel you may find merit in this (http://groups.google.com/group/FE-1-Study-Group/browse_frm/month/2009-02) thread and would/should, from the sounds of your plight, join these people in their cause. (Click on the link and then scroll down to the "trainees-to-be and the recession"  posts.)


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## Irishlawgirl

Card said:


> what about your earlier assertion that ALL firms in munster and connaught have left people go,
> i know this is not true



If I said "all" then I shouldn't have. I should have said majority as realistically one/two man band shows aren't able to let people go. Now i'm talking about people who have more than two people in their practice to begin with but at the end of the day, people like myself, who are looking for an apprenticeship don't care to be honest who is letting go of what - I would just like to be taken on, end of. 

As for b'hall fees - again - all I want is to be taken on even if that means taking out a big loan to pay for b'hall. Although it's pretty undesirable - so is never qualifying! 

As for disheartening people - that's a good thing if i'm being honest. I would rather people had made me more disheartened at the beginning of this whole apprenticeship hunt than not because it's one thing not getting an app'ship but quite another to feel somewhat personally responsible for not getting one. If people read my post and think - well if people are being let go all over the place, apprentices just aren't being taken on - then getting PFO after PFO is less personal. Which is something that I did take personally for a while. It's just me giving an honest opinon (not fact) just an opinion and the only thing I can back it up with is - the fact that I am starting into my third year of looking for an a'ship and trying my damn hardest to get everything I was told to get i.e. fe1's, tick, experience. tick, extra study/qualifications, tick, contacts, tick.  This is what i'm basing my opinions on.


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## Irishlawgirl

LDGantly said:


> Irishlawgirl I feel you may find merit in this (http://groups.google.com/group/FE-1-Study-Group/browse_frm/month/2009-02) thread and would/should, from the sounds of your plight, join these people in their cause. (Click on the link and then scroll down to the "trainees-to-be and the recession"  posts.)



Thanks - had  a read. Isn't it dreadful in a way that I feel better knowing that there are other people in the same, stinky boat that I am in! 

Saying that - i'm glad i'm in a job. Touch wood it stays that way! This whole recession with jobs being laid off all over the place makes me put less emphasis on not having an ap'ship which is a welcomed relief believe me!! I bore myself with it sometimes - can't imagine what it's like to listen to me!


----------



## thestrangled

It appears that we have all departed from the original subject of this post. This subject is all over my mind at the moment. In essence, is it veasible to commence in blackhall on the basis of a 'no pay' apprenticeship?

  It is my understanding that a law society regulation operates which, at its very foundation, places a requirement on the employer to offer minimum wage to all trainees. For everyone who has struggled through the fe1s and who has invested so much sweat in trying to progress into the elusive ppc1, it is almost impossible to swallow such an offer. 

Apart from the fact that it creates a rubex cube of complexity in terms of finance, we also must consider the legitimacy of such an apprenticeship. It has been suggested by a previous member that this regulation appears prima facie to be inoperative by virtue of the fact that no complaint can be made to attract any query. There are so many of us willing to accept such an offer that any such complaint to the law society would be tantamount to career suicide. 

 My questions are therefore, If offered such an apprenticeship...

 1) how in the name of buddha can it be financed?
 2) Will i qualify despite contravention of the minimum wage regulation?
 3) How many of us is there in this predicament?

Even if the reader has not been offered a 'no pay' apprenticship, your opinion on the subject would be much appreciated.


----------



## dazza21ie

thestrangled said:


> My questions are therefore, If offered such an apprenticeship...
> 
> 1) how in the name of buddha can it be financed?
> 2) Will i qualify despite contravention of the minimum wage regulation?
> 3) How many of us is there in this predicament?


 
1. That really is a question that only each individual wannabe solicitor can answer. Do they have enough personal funds to get through the qualification process or have they someone who will support them financially or would they be able to borrow (and are they confident enough to borrow such a large amount of money). Therefore it could really become a matter of the rich are more likely to succeed than the less well off which is a shame for the profession as a whole.

2. This is nothing new. Prior to the boom time people often qualifyed and were paid very little or nothing during their apprenticeship. The Law Society are highly unlikely going to ask where you paid during your apprenticeship. As long as you give them the fee for your application to the Roll of Solicitors and get the appropriate forms signed by your training solicitor they won't really care.

3. The Legal profession seems to be a constant rumour mill so it is very difficult to get an accurate picture. The facts as i see them are that the majority of legal firms are really feeling the down turn, some are really struggling and some have already given up the fight. This has caused a mass cull of staff within legal firms from partners to assistant solicitors to trainees to clerical staff there has been no area which has escaped. With so many offices letting people go and tightening their belts this greatly reduces the number of offices actively recruiting and increases the competition for places. I don't think they are that many offices that are actively looking for a "no pay" trainee. However if they are considering hiring a trainee and they get an offer from one applicant that they are willling to work for nothing then every other applicant will be compared against this. So if everyone applying for an apprenticeship agreed not to make this offer this would not be a problem. However there are people out there willing to do this therefore everyone else has to compete against them.


----------



## ramble

The law society recommend pay rates for trainees.  Any solicitor whom you do not know personally (relative or the like) who employs you without paying, is, in my view, not someone that you should be learning from.  There are enough rotten eggs in the profession without creating more.  If there is no work for trainees that is worth paying for then there sure as hell is no work for them when they qualify.  Do the people who want to be trained without pay want to continue working as solicitors without being paid?  Where does this leave the client? Would you be happy having someone handling your personal affairs and possibly a lot of your money who is not being paid?  

I was paid very little as a trainee in the 90's and got very poor legal training but learned a lot about how offices work (and can type very fast!).  Luckily my first post qualification job was with someone who was interested in training and it was on the upward curve of the boom so there was lots of work to do.  It's a bit like doctors, if you do not get enough practical experience you cannot do the job, this is true for trainees and solicitors.  A lot of solicitors are quite underemployed at the minute and will be having trouble keeping their knowledge up to date.  Solicitors are not hiring trainees because they don't have anything for them to do, they barely have enough to do themselves.  I would have thought that having a smart, underemployed, unpaid person hanging around your office would be a huge liability.

Anybody looking for an apprenticeship should concentrate on the litigation firms and the long established with good reputations.  There is always more lititgation in a downturn.  I have moved from doing 70% non contentious two years ago to mainly contentious now, If things continue the way they have being going since the beginning of the year I would see jobs becomming available again towards the end of the year, but on the litigation side.


----------



## MOB

"I don't understand when you say it's not true that all the firms who will pay for b'hall are gone as I firmly believe they are."

Your belief notwithstanding, it is just not true.  There are two apprentices in my office. One has been through PPC1 and one is there now.  Both have had and will continue to have their Blackhall fees paid, along with the recommended ( and admittedly modest) apprentice pay.   The firm down the street from me has one apprentice.  They likewise pay - I know because I asked.

Maybe the firms in my town are atypical - but I don't think so.  I would like to think that many small firms are doing their best to keep staff on and to invest in their future apprentices.   Absent hard data, all I can really say is that at least some firms continue to pay apprentices' LS fees.

Where an apprentice is in an office on an understanding that it is just an apprenticeship and with no prospect of future employment, I acknowledge that the situation is somewhat different, in that the office has no real incentive to invest in the apprentice.  

In my day, this was how it was done: my Master told me that I was welcome to turn up at the office as often as I liked, but not to expect money.    An apprenticeship like this has its place - though many people would take the view that the 21st century is not that place.


----------



## ellieg82

Guys, 

Has anyone heard from MHC re Internships?


----------



## lawhead1

ellieg82 said:


> Guys,
> 
> Has anyone heard from MHC re Internships?


 
Nope they dont seem to have sent anything to anyopne i know who applied yet despite the saying they would ge back to people in Feb.


----------



## ellieg82

Cool, 

So there's hope yet!


----------



## miak

Just wondering if anyone applied for the trainee solicitor job advertised by MOP in Feb? and if so, did anyone receive an acknowledgement of application or has anyone been called for interview?


----------



## hickey34

Has anyone heard anything back from Lavelle Coleman? Or does anyone know whats going on there?


----------



## Irishlawgirl

miak said:


> Just wondering if anyone applied for the trainee solicitor job advertised by MOP in Feb? and if so, did anyone receive an acknowledgement of application or has anyone been called for interview?



I emailed in and never heard back from them. Between now and that add I think they've let people go so it was rather random.


----------



## miak

I agree, it does seem a little random!


----------



## seansc1

Has anyone heard from Malcolmson Law yet?


----------



## hickey34

seansc1 said:


> Has anyone heard from Malcolmson Law yet?


 Yep, I got a letter of rejection from them over a month ago I think.


----------



## ellieg82

Hey guys

Just wondering, has anyone had any success of late in securing a training contract?


----------



## Lawyerlygrad

ellieg82 said:


> Hey guys
> 
> Just wondering, has anyone had any success of late in securing a training contract?



No, unfortunately.

Anyone heading to the Law Society seminar on securing a training contract? Anyone have any past experience of it? Would you recommend it?


----------



## ellieg82

Damn, i was hoping someone had some tales of success to share which might give me a boost....i'm so fed up with this, my job as a legal exec is mind-numbing!! I'm going insane. 

I was at that seminar last year, pretty useless, they just emphasise the need to utilise your contacts, to fine-tune your cv etc etc. Great help....not. Save your money, buy yourself a few drinks instead and drown your sorrows!


----------



## Irishlawgirl

I went to that seminar two years ago - I would consider it to be a waste of time - I left after two hours - right after - advice for your CV consisted of DOING A SPELL CHECK! Wasn't able for any more nonsense. 

I think there may only be 300 in b'hall this year! Can't imagine Cork even opening their doors! I wonder will the Law Soc extend the expiry date of the FE1's - currently it's five years from the date of the last exam passed.


----------



## l.m

The seminar is a complete waste of time, 3 hours on writing a cv and hours on how to dress for an interview. stuff you heard in college and even at school. Even the solicitors who were meant to come in from the top firms to offer advice didnt turn up the year I went it was terrible.

I'm currently trying to bribe all these politicans looking for votes in the upcoming elections to get me an apprenticeship or at least give me some contacts..................its work a try people


----------



## Irishlawgirl

Got a PFO from MOP yesterday via email - prob from my application in January/February!! Bizarre!


----------



## Spy

ellieg82 said:


> Hey guys
> 
> Just wondering, has anyone had any success of late in securing a training contract?


 

Hey, I have managed to secure one with one of the bigger Dublin firms. It's possible and I was looking for four years. Best of luck to all still searching. I didn't have any contacts either but if you can wrangle some out of politicians, go for it!!


----------



## get real

Anybody looking for an apprenticeship should just give up, there is probably a couple floating around somewhere but even in the boom times they were very hard to come by. My advice, start getting good at flippin burgers!!


----------



## ellieg82

Thanks for that, really helpful.


----------



## l.m

Spy do you mind me asking how you secured your training contract recently, was there an application process or did you just randomly send in cv etc.??
Also Get Real , the last thing people like myself who are looking for a training contract need is people like you posting such comments.  We are all very aware of how hard our situations are but, those of us who really want it will succeed!


----------



## McCrack

get real said:


> Anybody looking for an apprenticeship should just give up, there is probably a couple floating around somewhere but even in the boom times they were very hard to come by. My advice, start getting good at flippin burgers!!


 
So you actually bothered to sign up an account here to post that?

Says a lot about you pal.

Troll and a prat.


----------



## ellieg82

Ok guys lets not get into name calling again, the forum was removed the last time and we had to beg to get it back. 

Just ignore him.


----------



## l.m

Ya i agree, this forum is very important to alot of us but, we do not need pesstimistic people telling us all to give up.  If everybody in the world gave up when things were hard we'd never get anywhere!


----------



## Spy

l.m said:


> Spy do you mind me asking how you secured your training contract recently, was there an application process or did you just randomly send in cv etc.??
> 
> Hi apologies for the delay, I secured it in January this year. I haven't been online very much lately so I didn't get a chance to contribute back then. It was your standard run of the mill application process. Just got lucky this time round I guess.
> 
> As for random CV sending, I did that and had no success. As for contacts I tried all that I had (which are few and far between) and no success there either. I did get as far as a second round interview using this method but I ruined the interview! It went wrong from the start but that can happen sometimes. I'm just glad to be out of the rat race (no offence) although I don't know what i'll do with myself next November...lol - i'm programmed to be filling in applications at this stage.
> 
> Anyway, if you really want a career in law, don't give up trying and don't listen to the pessimists. It's probably best not to be qualifying in a recession in any event.


----------



## l.m

Thanks for the reply Spy and congrats again on securing the apprenticeship  I hope its a very successful one for you.
I wish i was out of the 'rat race' too  but i'll just have to struggle on.............whats for me wont pass me by or so people say


----------



## legallady

if you think you'll be out of the rat race once you've gotten an apprenticeship, you've another thing coming. It's only the start of the rat race my dear. Trust me, I've been there and done that. FE1s and getting an apprenticeship is the easy bit.


----------



## l.m

I know i wont be out of the 'rat race'  i know too well how tough this whole solicitor thing is, i havent heard one positive thing about it from anyone in over a year.  I take it your qualified and possibly unemployed??


----------



## legallady

yes I am qualified and unemployed with a few weeks. To be honest I was kind of glad to leave that environment. Most of my class that have jobs are very unhappy in them. Double the pressure for half the pay and you're always on edge as you might be next to go. Lots of newly qualifieds are working for free in firms just to get the PQE. Even in boom times, being a solicitor was just one big rat race, the only difference was that you had to pretend you were happy with it, and that you were living the dream.


----------



## l.m

So you are happy to be out of it?  Do you think you'll practice anymore as a solicitor or would it make you happy not to have to?


----------



## Snowcone

Hi all,

2 questions re traineeships. I have never applied to the big firms as I began my traineeship search by applying to mid-sized firms and none of them seem to be taking trainees. I'm going to apply to them this time around though and I was just wondering what my chances would be of getting an interview. I have a mid 2:1 undergrad law degree, a mid 2:1 postgrad in law, 8 FE-1s, almost a year of work exp split across a couple of different mid-tier commercial firms, travelled, good extra-curriculars from college (society involvement and held a couple of elected positions), and am commencing AITI course next month. I only ask as I applied to Malcomson in Jan and didn't get to interview stage and consequently don't understand what firms are looking for. 

My second Q is to do with filling out results on an application form:are grades or percentages best? I have good grades (2:1s mostly with a few 1:1s along the way) but I have a bad grade (compensatable pass) in an accountancy subject in the early days of my college career (I was sick the night before and day of the exam - should have looked for a deferral in hindsight but at the time I was just happy that I didn't have to repeat!) Any advice on how to dress this up on an app form or would it end my chances of getting an interview?


----------



## LDGantly

Snowcone said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 2 questions re traineeships. I have never applied to the big firms as I began my traineeship search by applying to mid-sized firms and none of them seem to be taking trainees. I'm going to apply to them this time around though and I was just wondering what my chances would be of getting an interview. I have a mid 2:1 undergrad law degree, a mid 2:1 postgrad in law, 8 FE-1s, almost a year of work exp split across a couple of different mid-tier commercial firms, travelled, good extra-curriculars from college (society involvement and held a couple of elected positions), and am commencing AITI course next month. I only ask as I applied to Malcomson in Jan and didn't get to interview stage and consequently don't understand what firms are looking for.
> 
> My second Q is to do with filling out results on an application form:are grades or percentages best? I have good grades (2:1s mostly with a few 1:1s along the way) but I have a bad grade (compensatable pass) in an accountancy subject in the early days of my college career (I was sick the night before and day of the exam - should have looked for a deferral in hindsight but at the time I was just happy that I didn't have to repeat!) Any advice on how to dress this up on an app form or would it end my chances of getting an interview?



Think you've quite a good chance tbh. Extra-currics are seem to be very broad-ranged are substantive and grades are good. Id defo give percentage as otherwise firms might thing you're trying to conceal something. Best of luck with the applications


----------



## Mrs.QC

Heya, your chances would be as good as anybodies. Your grades could be better considering that there are a lot of high 2.1s and a fair amount of 1sts out there but your extra-curriculars seem to be very strong. Grades arent everything by any means and I know several people with 2.1s who got offers from the big firms over people with firsts last year. The one thing I (personally) would be concerned about is why you havent applied before...how much do you want to work for these firms if you didnt apply the first time you had a chance to do so?
Re your second query, I would give the precantages, but thats just me. As the above poster said, if you give grades, they might think that you're trying to hide something and will see through your application. Just be honest and you'll be grand. I scraped through economics in the second year of my degree (42%) and generally, had rubbish grades in my first two years. At interview the questions were focused on how I managed to improve them so much. So to be honest I wouldnt say it matters at all that in your early days you passed a subject by compensation. So what? We're all human and we all have our off-days. The firms know that.
The last thing I would say to you is that the key in getting to interview stage is ensuring that your application is worded perfectly. Your presentation MUST be impecable. Photocopy the application forms, fill them out, and show them to as many people (preferably those who would know about recruitment) as you can and take their opinions on board. All the firms can go by is by what you have written in application. Also, obviously, its very very important that you answer the questions asked (especially for william fry and Goodbody---as they have the "trickiest" questions). G'Luck


----------



## l.m

The advice I would give Snowcone is to make sure that a job in the big 5 is what you want, I spent months last year filling up applications for all of them only to realise that it wasnt what i wanted. I was told by some of the recruiters that this also came through in my applications. There's a lot of work required into filling these applications just make sure your doing them for the right reason. Lots of luck with it


----------



## LB25

can I just pose a question please - 
I've had to vere away from a legal career owing to the fact that I couldn't find an apprenticeship and I am now working a paid internship with a human rights NGO in the UK which runs until late next year. There is little or no chance of permanent employment with them after my contact ends. 

I have all my FE-1s but jumped ship into this area because of what I foresaw was a fairly hopeless situation for trainee solicitors in Ireland. I also had to pay off some bills. 

I'm still toying the idea of making one last attempt at securing an apprenticeship, as I would like to qualify as something seeing as I studied for so long! 

When would be the right time to start throwing out CV's again? 

I'm not looking to work for the top-10 so to speak, I find them too commercial. A small to medium firm doing criminal,family, employment or immigration is what I would be looking for - am I being overly optimistic?


----------



## ellieg82

Hi guys, quick question....

Does anyone know, can you claim social welfare if you work voluntarily?

Also, say I was to get an unpaid traineeship, could I claim social welfare in those circumstances? 

Thanks


----------



## Mr. C.J.H.

ellieg82 said:


> Hi guys, quick question....
> 
> Does anyone know, can you claim social welfare if you work voluntarily?
> 
> Also, say I was to get an unpaid traineeship, could I claim social welfare in those circumstances?
> 
> Thanks


 
No, as you must be "available for and genuinely seeking work" to qualify for jobseekers benefit or assistance. You may qualify for a Local Authority Higher Education Grant whilst on the PPC courses and the Law Soc have a bursary for students in severe financial hardship. 

I understand that you are very eager to qualify and that is why you are considering working for free, but you should think about this long and hard, is it really worth it? 2 1/2 years without pay and about €13k in fees, after which you will in all likelihood be unemployed. Aprox 70-80% of this year's NQs are now unemployed and it is likley to be a lot worse next year. Ask yourself would you be better waiting a couple of years, gaining experience in paid employment before making such a huge leap with failure at the end, in terms of getting a NQ job, a virtual certainty. Perhaps things will be better if you waited a couple of years, who knows you might even get paid during your traineeship, in blackhall and fees paid (like the good old days in my case of 3 years ago).


----------



## l.m

Anyone here applying to the big firms this year, if so what firms are you trying??


----------



## taprjeangirl

Applied to the usuals, although quelle surprise a lot of the usuals are not taking on any trainees this year. Have a couple of interviews coming up in January. 

No rejection letters yet though so checking the post is the latest fun-filled activity I'm indulging in  Has anyone had any rejections yet?


----------



## l.m

> Have a couple of interviews coming up in January.


Already? These aren't with the big firms, are they? or are you just being optimistic about securing such interviews??


----------



## taprjeangirl

Ehm no. Although optimism is a pre-requisite I think in these situations. One for Maples and one for a medium-sized local.


----------



## YBIWSI

Attention FE-1 Students

Three day work experience placement in leading Dublin law firm available

A leading Irish Legal firm requires a dependable individual to cover general office, bank and post duties for a three day period from Monday 7th December to Wednesday 9th December.

There will also be an opportunity to experience the workings of the Court Service, Property Registration Authority and Companies Registration Office.

The ideal candidate will have experience in an office environment, have strong attention to detail, be punctual, well-organised and presentable.

Please forward CV and cover note to corgandeal@gmail.com


----------



## l.m

taprjeangirl said:


> Ehm no. Although optimism is a pre-requisite I think in these situations. One for Maples and one for a medium-sized local.



Well done on the interviews, hope they go well for you.  Do you mind me asking did your medium-size local firm have a recruitment programme as well?


----------



## Stronge

My friends son just got his regrets from Goodbodys this morning. He has an interview for tuesday with AH Cox so all is not lost yet.


----------



## SuSo

Hi folks, 

Anyone heard anything from the usual big name suspects in Cork?..... PFO's, interviews or otherwise?

Trying to find a contract to get into course for 2010.. after many years of banging my head against a brick wall decided to go for law... have a lot of experience of solicitors practices and therefore many aspects of the job - I was not sure about, however I am so desperate to get out of my current job that I decided to give the law thing my best shot for 2009, of course what a year to decide in the midst of a recession.

Have sent out CVs but any replies so far state that they are not taking on with the recession, I offered to work for free to one solicitor and he said she wouldnt' be comfortable hiring someone for free 

The only thing I can find to comfort myself is that even in the boom times it was hard to get an app where you didn't have contacts etc...

There are 100% firms still hiring apps as I know of at least 3 firms that have taken on apps.


----------



## MOB

SuSo said:


> I offered to work for free to one solicitor and he said she wouldnt' be comfortable hiring someone for free



Though it may not seem so right now, this is a good thing.  I know many solicitors who take the same principled position.


----------



## SuSo

"Though it may not seem so right now, this is a good thing. I know many solicitors who take the same principled position. "

Thanks.... I know you are probably right.   It does strike me of someone of good and upstanding character, this made me want to work for her more - but she was not in the position to hire someone due to recession, though busy, watching the finances.     If I was going to work for free for someone, it would be for someone like that!


----------



## inbetweeners

Hey I was wondering if anyone knows anything about training withas solicitor? if anyone has first hand knowledge or knows of some reliable info i'd appreciate it by a PM

thanks in advance


----------



## SuSo

I'v officially given up on the law thing.   Any prospective law/FE1 students out there who are not sure if being a solicitor is for them, run a mile now, and do something different.  I have had a lot of exposure to the industry in work that I have been involved in and I am sorry to say that being a solicitor involves a lot of confrontation, some aggression and you can leave your sympathies, objectivities and empathies at the door.  To be honest, its not a glamourous job, nor does it have much "status" anymore, considering that the Law Soc allow 600 + people to qualify every year.   Who by the way haven't a hope of getting jobs.   Have offically become completely disillisioned and am finally sick of being in limbo, sending out cv after cv hoping someone will take me on and sign my papers to let me start Blackhall this year.   You have no control over your own life.  To be fair to prospective trainer solicitors, there are no incentives from the Law Soc that would encourage them to take on a trainee, why would any solicitor take on a trainee in their right mind and the moment - and have to pay them 300 a week to get ****ed in Blackhall.    The Law Soc is one big joke.


----------



## ellieg82

Right with you SuSo, I am officially giving up, and hatching a plan B as I speak. Sick of putting my life on hold for this, especially when I see the solicitors I work with are miserable! There's more to life. Screw this. After four years of FE1 struggle and hopeless apprenticeship search, i'm done.


----------



## SuSo

ellieg82 said:


> Right with you SuSo, I am officially giving up, and hatching a plan B as I speak. Sick of putting my life on hold for this, especially when I see the solicitors I work with are miserable! There's more to life. Screw this. After four years of FE1 struggle and hopeless apprenticeship search, i'm done.


 
Yeah, I am off with Plan B as well, approx wasted 4-5 years of my life on trying to be a solicitor also, so sorry Ellie but it is almost comforting to know I am not the only one. Just hope that I can learn from my mistake and save someone else the crap we have put ourselves through. For the past 5 years I have become so depressed at not having control over where my life is going, and not having a career, trying to find an app and trying to advance myself to make myself more appealing to trainers. Spent 3 years in a role that I hoped would give me an edge over the other mountains of apprenticeship cvs coming in the door to a firm when I went back to seeking an apprenticeship, which, realisitically speaking - should have done as the role involved a lot of exposure to the legal industry. But no, I have offered myself for free to solicitors firms to no avail and am officially sick of it. 

Also worked in a solicitors office before and got treated very badly, unfortunately the same happened to more of my law friends in solicitors offices, where bullying was common place. I am afraid that that is a possibility for any trainee, and potentially even more so if you are female, as from what I have gathered from my own experiences and exposure to the industry, male trainees are not expected to muck in as much as female, and do "from the bottom" up tasks such as dictaphone typing etc They seem to get respected, if that is possible, a little more - as solicitors offices these days have way too much estrogen floating around, and I think males are treated with a lot more kid-glove as a result. This is merely what I feel I have witnessed from my own experience and stand to correction.

Having said that the more familiar I became with the industry - the less I can say it would be a job that I would like at this stage, but then again that is probably disillisionment with the crap qualification process and the total lack of incentive for trainers to take on apprentices from the useless Law Society. As for solicitors being miserable, I have to by and large agree with that. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe in the UK, one can apply to get on the Legal Practitioners Course and then worry about trying to find the traineeship after, which in my opinion if it is the case, sets students on a more even footing, you actually have something to offer a potential trainer, as lets face it - what does a law degree tell you or prepare you for working in a solicitors office? Nothing. Secondly it allows control over your life - you apply for the LPC, you can have a set date as to when you can start - rather than be in limbo for years and years! 

Have heard horror stories of poor FE1 graduates slaving in firms for months/years hoping to get app, only to be booted out in favour of Daddy's friends daughter/son etc - so what is the point - I ask you? More time wasting. A friend of mine took a call in a solicitors office from the parent of an FE1 graduate who wanted to pay the solicitors firm to take her daughter on! I suppose I am in the same boat as some poor sod who has gone off and spent years thousands doing a Law Masters, hoping that will give them an edge - newsflash - it probably won't! I am very sorry to all those who may read this and dislike the negativity, but what I would say is if you have any doubts about going the solicitor road and you are not sure it is for you - run a mile. If it is really what you want to do then persevre and persevre, but you may be at that for some time. If you really want it, continue to chase the dream.   I guess if you really really want it you can get it, from what I have seen and how hard it is to get an app, I don't want it anymore.    So this is for those of you who are not so sure, just take your stumbling upon of this post as a sign to leg it while you can.


----------



## ellieg82

I agree with all of the above. 

People, if you're wise you'll take note. 

Don't waste years of your life as I have.  Do something else.


----------



## SuSo

Save yourself!


----------



## Trafford

Wow! The above posts are enlightening, to say the least. Have been feeling pretty much like you since 2004. I have all my FE1s (still have 3 years to enter BHP) and have 8 years legal work experience. I have been in 2  firms where, like you say, the shutters have come down on me to train due to other people's darlings getting the roles ahead of me. I am open of course to accepting that I'm just not good enough too, but I'd rather be told that to my face so I don't keep wasting my time.

Having said that, there is a flicker of hope of a traineeship here in my current in-house department, and as I still have 3 years left on my FE-1s I will pursue that to the bitter end.

Best of luck to both of you in your new directions!


----------



## SuSo

Thanks Trafford, and best of luck to you too and well done for sticking it out.  It must really be want you want and obviously you are interested in the area, after 8 years you know exactly what to expect, and like you said you have another 3 years to get there.  At least when you qualify you can add your additional 8 years to your CV in someway, should at least enhance your PQA experience and give you an edge.   

As for not being good enough, I doubt it, as I am sorry to say that one person I know who had the shutters come down on them (as you described it) this was done so as to accommodate someone else who couldn't even type and had never set foot in a solicitors before.   The only comfort may be that cronyism and nepotism does exist in lots of other industries - I guess.


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## Shuttleworth

SuSo, Ellie and others - you are dead right to get out now.  I qualified in 1999 and my practice closed last November.  I've been on the dole since March 2009.  I have creditors beating down my door, my mortgage in arrears, had two vexatious cases taken against me by clients trying it on (they lost, but I had to get counsel to assist me), bank pulled overdraft, couldn't get insurance, nothing but abuse and plummeting fees for years.  It is a truly awful job, you are qualified for nothing except waffle at the end of the day, and the only people who make money in it are the large conglomerates getting NAMA-type State briefs.  

Other than that - forget it.


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