# Manager and HR want a meeting



## Bowkett66 (4 Sep 2008)

Hi I recevied a phone call from my manager yesterday requesting a meeting at home with a HR person present. I asked the reason for this and was advised that due to  being of sick for three week would need to come and have a chat to see how things are going. Fine, my manager then said that she had another issue that she wished to talk to me about, but as I was not at work she would want to talk to me about this to.  Asked why HR would be present and she said policy. Asked if I could have someone present was advised yes.  Contacted HR later that day as something did not seem right went through this with HR guy who told me that manager had told him that my husband would be at the meeting in our own home.  Advised that there seemed to be other issues that she did not want to disclose and should I have a union rep with me.  He advised that perhaps I should.  My manager seems to be trying to get rid of me and  I have been feeling harrased by her.  My medical problems have been genuine and my doctor advised that some of the stress from work are making them worse.  Any suggestions??


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## Purple (4 Sep 2008)

Issues like this are way to subjective to offer specific advice.
Contact your union rep and ask that they be present. Only those who have the details and the context can really be constructive.


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## sam h (4 Sep 2008)

Have the meeting with them but have a chat with the Union rep first (TBH, I'm not a big fan of unions but they will have more knowledge about how to deal with the meeting).

Personally I would go to the meeting with a view to say very little as you have not been advised exactly what the meeting is about.  This will give you the opportunity to sit down with the rep afterwards and review the meeting & what was said and it avoids you saying anything rash.  It's probably a good idea to ask your manager to put the details of the meeting in writing so there can be no misunderstandings.  You can then schedule another meeting where both parties are in a position to have a frank discussion about whatever.

You never know, it may be something basic like a standard follow up on extended sick leave & a rejig of the department.


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## Calebs Dad (4 Sep 2008)

I would ask what the nature of the meeting is prior to agreeing. Once you have had verbal confirmation, request that it be put in writing. Then you and your union rep (if available) will know what to expect.


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## bond-007 (4 Sep 2008)

If you are on certified sick leave I would refuse all meetings with HR.


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## Flax (4 Sep 2008)

Companies are entitled to fire people if their sick leave is affecting their ability to do their job.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/c...dundancy/dismissal/fair-grounds-for-dismissal


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## Flax (4 Sep 2008)

bond-007 said:


> If you are on certified sick leave I would refuse all meetings with HR.


 
And then get fired for being a difficult employee?

EDIT: Ah, you mean while on sick leave. Apologies.


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## AGENG (5 Sep 2008)

If you are on extended sick leave and have given certs for work related stress etc then the company will probably be looking for a way to terminate your employment. There are not many companies that are happy to wait indefinitely for an employee to return to work. Can't really blame them, it is a difficult situation for them as well as for you.


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## Flax (5 Sep 2008)

AGENG said:


> Can't really blame them, it is a difficult situation for them as well as for you.


 
Yeah, I don't understand why some people think their employer is a charity and should continue damaging their business while they wait on the (real or faking) sick person to return.

This is just my personal opinion, but people who go off work "sick with stress" and expect to continue on their salary and keep their job are leeches. They should just quit and find a nicer job somewhere else.


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## ClubMan (5 Sep 2008)

Flax said:


> This is just my personal opinion, but people who go off work "sick with stress" and expect to continue on their salary and keep their job are leeches. They should just quit and find a nicer job somewhere else.


Surely that depends on their contract terms & conditions - e.g. some employers offer sick pay or salary/permanent health insurance to cover such situations as part of their remuneration/benefits packages to employees?

Your use of quotation marks around "sick with stress" could be interpreted as implying that you consider many (most?) people in that situation to be some sort of malingerers? If so then this seems like a gross generalisation.


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## Flax (5 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> Your use of quotation marks around "sick with stress" could be interpreted as implying that you consider many (most?) people in that situation to be some sort of malingerers? If so then this seems like a gross generalisation.


 
Yep, I'm generalising, but I wouldn't be the only person who knows people who pulled the "too stressed to work" card to get off work for months.

Of course there are real cases, but I'm yet to see one.

My point was basically, if your job is too stressful, get a different job!

Anyway, I don't want to take this too off topic.


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## ClubMan (5 Sep 2008)

Flax said:


> My point was basically, if your job is too stressful, get a different job!


You seem to be assuming that most or all people who go sick with "stress" do so mainly or solely due to workplace (dis)stress? This also seems like a bit of a generalization. Just because you know some people who, in your subjective opinion, might have fitted the malingerer category doesn't mean that most or all others are the same. Perhaps you simply don't consider stress (and perhaps other mental health) related illnesses (as certified by a medical professional) to be "real" illnesses and you would probably not be alone there in being so blinkered unfortunately.


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## Flax (5 Sep 2008)

I am talking about people who blame it on workplace stress. I am not talking about someone who has had some kind of breakdown due to a death in the family or something like that.

"As certified by a medical professional" means nothing to me, as again, we all know of doctors who will give a cert for anything.


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## ClubMan (5 Sep 2008)

Flax said:


> "As certified by a medical professional" means nothing to me, as again, we all know of doctors who will give a cert for anything.


I don't.


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## bond-007 (5 Sep 2008)

As do I. 

If I asked a doctor for a cert he would want to examine me and see if I am ill.


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## rmelly (5 Sep 2008)

ClubMan said:


> I don't.


 


bond-007 said:


> As do I.


 
Same here


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## Peeete (5 Sep 2008)

I think some doctors are more flexible than others.


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## Eithneangela (5 Sep 2008)

I would request that your manager notify you, in writing, of the proposed meeting, the agenda, the attendees etc.  It would seem that by having a HR representative at the meeting, there is a very specific agenda with a determined outcome.  Whatever the situation, you are entitled to be made formally aware of this.  What has your husband to do with your employment situation - this sounds really strange?


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## Flax (5 Sep 2008)

Peeete said:


> I think some doctors are more flexible than others.


 
Yeah. I know of three in Dublin city centre who are used by people to get off work. They will give a cert for anything.


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## Staples (5 Sep 2008)

Flax said:


> Of course there are real cases, but I'm yet to see one.


 
How do you tell a real case from a dodgy one?  This implies that your knowledge is superior to that of the certifying doctor.


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## bond-007 (5 Sep 2008)

I would love to see that explained to an EAT.


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## MandaC (5 Sep 2008)

Flax said:


> I am talking about people who blame it on workplace stress. I am not talking about someone who has had some kind of breakdown due to a death in the family or something like that.
> 
> "As certified by a medical professional" means nothing to me, as again, we all know of doctors who will give a cert for anything.



Agree with Flax on this one.  Knew a girl who went off sick with stress(!) because someone pulled her up over abusing the internet and the office phone. She was a kind of bully by nature and had tried to bully other people in the office.  I think what happened was that they all decided together enough was enough and stood their ground.  She took this as "woe is me, norbody likes me".  She decided she had enough of work and kept getting certified off, even though there was nothing wrong with her.

Employer had to end up paying her off!  This was a Solicitors office and they thought their best option was offer her a settlement to leave.  

She had a doctor on side who would certify anything.


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## Brendan Burgess (5 Sep 2008)

I seem to remember a piece in an Irish newspaper recently where the journalist went around to various doctors claiming to be sick when she wasn't. 

She got plenty of sick certs. 

Brendan


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## Guest106 (5 Sep 2008)

Those who invoke medical interevention for no good reason in order to prolong sickness leave are just pests.  They are hugely damaging to staff morale and are impressionable to younger workers who may have such leanings.  These 'sick' individuals are not slow to counsel those who will listen to them and will try to enlist support for their position as a morale booster for themselves.

They can be very difficult to deal with as many a company manager has found out.  These malingerers invariably demand that absolutely every 'i' is dotted and 't' crossed by management when dealing with them and can go litigious at the blink of an eye.

In one scenario that I know of, a certain office worker had two claims pending against the company for injuries at work (one was for falling off a toilet seat !) while her husband who worked for a state entity had three claims in a ten year period against the state.  Glad to say he collected only once but she collected on both occasions.

Genuine sickness cases I have no difficulty with and feel that most people have little difficulty in discerning the phonies.  Drawing on considerable knowledge and some experience in this field, I am firmly of the view that the genuinely sick do not try to challenge or obstruct management when a meeting is sought and are all too willing to respond honestly and openly.
Ducking and diving is the _raison d'etre _of wasters.


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## Purple (5 Sep 2008)

I agree with Brendan.
My wife (a doctor) nearly lost her job when she worked as a locum for refusing to give a sick cert to a friend of the Doctor who owned the practice. There was nothing wrong with the man.


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## Complainer (5 Sep 2008)

If there is an endemic problem with doctors giving out unnecessary sick certs, then surely there must be some way of addressing it. The large/medium employers could easily track the certs to find the culprit doctors, and complain to the medical council or elsewhere if necessary.


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## Ghodadaba (17 Sep 2008)

Purple said:


> I agree with Brendan.
> My wife (a doctor) nearly lost her job when she worked as a locum for refusing to give a sick cert to a friend of the Doctor who owned the practice. There was nothing wrong with the man.


 
Why didn't the doctor who owned the practice just give the man a cert?


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## bamboozle (17 Sep 2008)

locums fill in when they main doctor is away....


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## ney001 (17 Sep 2008)

I know quite a few people who have received sick certs from docs as a result of 'stress' when I know that they are just ****ed off with work etc.  However, I think the point is that docs don't just hand out certs to anybody and everybody but if somebody explains that they are stressed or depressed it is very hard to prove otherwise and if a doctor was to refuse a cert he/she might aggravate that persons condition if indeed it is genuine.  Mental complaints/stress disorders/depression are hard to diagnose and hard to quantify so most docs probably err on the side of caution.


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## Purple (17 Sep 2008)

ney001 said:


> I I think the point is that docs don't just hand out certs to anybody and everybody


 Some do.


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## Purple (17 Sep 2008)

Complainer said:


> If there is an endemic problem with doctors giving out unnecessary sick certs, then surely there must be some way of addressing it. The large/medium employers could easily track the certs to find the culprit doctors, and complain to the medical council or elsewhere if necessary.


Good idea but I can't see it working; they would just close ranks.


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## jake burns (17 Sep 2008)

seems like people have gone off the topic, this person has said that they have genuine med probs and that the doc reckons work stress is adding to it, most right thinking employers would want to help their employee but this doesn't look like a case of caring, I don't think your under an obligation to face all this when your sick but if you have to have a decent union official with you, try have a meeting with hr first to explain your worries as regards harassment etc this will make it harder for them to axe you, best of luck don't be afraid to get in touch directly with union hq thats what you pay them for


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## BoscoTalking (17 Sep 2008)

Flax said:


> I am talking about people who *blame it on workplace stress*. I am not talking about someone who has had some kind of breakdown due to a death in the family or something like that.


 Your ignorance of work related stress  is sad in this day and age.


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## Complainer (18 Sep 2008)

Purple said:


> Good idea but I can't see it working; they would just close ranks.


Having watched the recent Whistleblower drama on TV, I can only say 'Shame on the entire profession' if there would be any closing of ranks around a matter so (in the overall scheme of things) trivial'


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## alaskaonline (18 Sep 2008)

I haven't met a doctor who just gives out sick certs but do believe there are some out there.
Either way the company has the right to send any employee (who calls in sick) to a company doctor if they have doubts about the honesty factor and if you are severally stressed in work and this is the reason why you're out of it, then the company doctor will be able to confirm this but they look much more critically at you than a normal jo so doctor would 

OP could recommend this to her employer i.e. to be send to a company doctor for confirmation to show that she is honest and fully co-operates. It's in the interest of both parties.


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## QED (18 Sep 2008)

Bowkett66 - Can we get an update, has the meeting taken place?


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## Purple (18 Sep 2008)

Complainer said:


> Having watched the recent Whistleblower drama on TV, I can only say 'Shame on the entire profession' if there would be any closing of ranks around a matter so (in the overall scheme of things) trivial'


 I agree. I could say alot more but I don't think Brendan would be too happy.


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## ney001 (18 Sep 2008)

Purple said:


> Good idea but I can't see it working; they would just close ranks.




In the cases of mental illness/stress/depression there is no way to prove that a doctor gave out the cert in error i.e you cannot prove or disprove stress or depression - so maybe a lot of doctors don't waste time trying to! .  Even if the person is caught by their employers out and about in the pub or shopping or something- they could just say that they were having a good day or needed a drink etc etc


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## ClubMan (18 Sep 2008)

Complainer said:


> Having watched the recent Whistleblower drama on TV, I can only say 'Shame on the entire profession' if there would be any closing of ranks around a matter so (in the overall scheme of things) trivial'


Yeah - _TV _dramatisations *based on *the facts of extreme cases but including a lot of dramatic license are a good way to make balanced judgements on such issues alright...


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## rmelly (18 Sep 2008)

Complainer said:


> Having watched the recent Whistleblower drama on TV, I can only say 'Shame on the entire profession' if there would be any closing of ranks around a matter so (in the overall scheme of things) trivial'


 
What has one got to do with the other?


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## Complainer (18 Sep 2008)

rmelly said:


> What has one got to do with the other?


The shame of the Neary case was not so much the extreme actions of Neary himself (who carried out 188 post-partum hysterectomies in his career, compared to an average of 5 or 6 for consultant obstetricians), but the fact that this was accepted by his medical and nursing colleages. From Wikipedia:


> The Inquiry found how a senior consultant colleague of Dr Neary’s in the 70s and 80s, now deceased, told a Matron who was questioning the high number of hysterectomies that Dr Neary was “afraid of haemorrhage”. A junior consultant pathologist at the hospital in the early 80s asked his senior colleague why a perinatal uterus specimen he received seemed to have nothing wrong with it. The senior consultant replied “that’s Michael Neary for you”.


The midwife who did eventually stand up and call a halt was ostracised by her nursing colleagues.

This 'closing of ranks' cost about 180 women their reproductive organs. I would hope that some lessons have been learnt in the medical profession that would stop 'closing of ranks' as a defensive reaction to such complaints.


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## Effie (18 Sep 2008)

Folks, we appear to be veering away from the original question was about, what should this person do given that her manager wanted to meet with her with HR present.

Even though this is not a formal disciplinary meeting, can I suggest you tape record the meeting having told this person and the person from HR, that for the purposes of having correct meeting minutes you are going to record it, and you will happily give them a copy of the tape afterwards. 

If they are upfront and playing by the rules, they should not object. If they do, remind them that it is almost physically impossible to both take part  and take minutes properly at the same time. 


I find it very strange that your home has been requested as the venue for this meeting.

Please remember, you are also not obliged to have anyone in your home if do not wish to and you could ask for a neutral venue if you do not feel comfortable with their demands. (If I was in your shoes, it would be the last place I'd want to have these type of visitors- this is not a social visit and no doubt you are feeling very vulnerable and need the security of your home and family. Not to be picked on in your own home would be a very important consideration for deciding whether or not to allow the meeting to take place as requested)!!

Hope this issue gets resolved soon for you. 

Best of luck


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## rmelly (19 Sep 2008)

Complainer said:


> The shame of the Neary case was not so much the extreme actions of Neary himself (who carried out 188 post-partum hysterectomies in his career, compared to an average of 5 or 6 for consultant obstetricians), but the fact that this was accepted by his medical and nursing colleages. From Wikipedia:
> 
> The midwife who did eventually stand up and call a halt was ostracised by her nursing colleagues.
> 
> This 'closing of ranks' cost about 180 women their reproductive organs. I would hope that some lessons have been learnt in the medical profession that would stop 'closing of ranks' as a defensive reaction to such complaints.


 
Has there been a 'closing of ranks' on complaints over the issuing of certs? If not it seems a bit unfair on the medical profession to go off on this tangent. Also a bit like tarring everyone with the same brush - something that I know you strenuously object to when directed at the public sector.


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## Complainer (19 Sep 2008)

rmelly said:


> Has there been a 'closing of ranks' on complaints over the issuing of certs? If not it seems a bit unfair on the medical profession to go off on this tangent. Also a bit like tarring everyone with the same brush - something that I know you strenuously object to when directed at the public sector.


Go back and check the little 'if' in my post. It was Purple (who has direct family connections in the medical profession) who raised the probability of closing of ranks.


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## becky (19 Sep 2008)

ney001 said:


> Even if the person is caught by their employers out and about in the pub or shopping or something- they could just say that they were having a good day or needed a drink etc etc


 
As we say to managers 'don't agrue with the cert'.  

I have loads of managers telling me they have met 'sick' employees out on the town and what can be done?  Answer is nothing as the cert states that they are 'unfit for work'.


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## Complainer (20 Sep 2008)

becky said:


> I have loads of managers telling me they have met 'sick' employees out on the town and what can be done?  Answer is nothing as the cert states that they are 'unfit for work'.


I've occasionaly gone out for lunch with the family while genuinely unfit for work in the past. From memory, it has been a one-day thing rather than off on a doctor's cert, but the same principle applies. 

You don't need to put quotation marks around 'sick' - Unfit for work does not necessarily equal housebound.


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## rmelly (20 Sep 2008)

Complainer said:


> Go back and check the little 'if' in my post. It was Purple (who has direct family connections in the medical profession) who raised the probability of closing of ranks.


 
and you jumped on it to go off on a rant. I'm aware of Purple's family connections to the medical profession, there is no suggestion that that has any bearing on his comment/opinion, and I find the use of the term 'probability' inappropriate - he expressed an opinion. I found your subsequent comments insulting - i have some close family members in the medical profession and I have no doubts at all about their integrity.


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## Complainer (20 Sep 2008)

rmelly said:


> and you jumped on it to go off on a rant. I'm aware of Purple's family connections to the medical profession, there is no suggestion that that has any bearing on his comment/opinion, and I find the use of the term 'probability' inappropriate - he expressed an opinion. I found your subsequent comments insulting - i have some close family members in the medical profession and I have no doubts at all about their integrity.



If you've a problem with my post, click the red triangle. If you've a problem with Purple's statement "I can't see it working; they would just close ranks", (which in fact goes much further than stating it as a probability) feel free to take it up with him.


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## rmelly (20 Sep 2008)

Complainer said:


> If you've a problem with my post, click the red triangle. If you've a problem with Purple's statement "I can't see it working; they would just close ranks", (which in fact goes much further than stating it as a probability) feel free to take it up with him.


 
Fair enough.


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## becky (20 Sep 2008)

Complainer said:


> I've occasionaly gone out for lunch with the family while genuinely unfit for work in the past. From memory, it has been a one-day thing rather than off on a doctor's cert, but the same principle applies.
> 
> You don't need to put quotation marks around 'sick' - Unfit for work does not necessarily equal housebound.


 
I did that because the people I was referring to would not be 'sick' or 'unfit for work' IMO.  But as I've said I don't agrue with certs.

I realise that being sick does not mean you are bed bound or house bound but some people abuse the sick leave policies and are just lazy.

We have a very good sick leave policy and because of that its open to abuse.


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## Smashbox (24 Sep 2008)

Any update on this situation?


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## Purple (24 Sep 2008)

rmelly said:


> Has there been a 'closing of ranks' on complaints over the issuing of certs? If not it seems a bit unfair on the medical profession to go off on this tangent. Also a bit like tarring everyone with the same brush - something that I know you strenuously object to when directed at the public sector.


 Fiar point there rmelly. I should have said "In my opinion there is a high probability that they will just close ranks"


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## Latrade (25 Sep 2008)

Regarding the OP:

Just because an employer calls a meeting it doesn't make it a disciplinary meeting. Again this will depend on your terms and conditions, but many employers review the situation when it comes to long term sick leave. This is to see how the employee is doing and also if there is anything the employer can do to help recovery.

In addition for employers, when an employee states that stress is a direct cause or contributer to the illness and leave, then the employer would also need to investigate this further. This would be to establish if the employment has contributed or if there are reduced duties that could be provided on a temporary basis so the employee can return to work.

However, in short, this is pretty standard HR and absense management practice. The focus is on assessment and seeing how they can help the employee return to work as quickly as is appropriate.

As said however, it's probably best to involve your union rep or have some representation for yourself at the meeting. 

On the off-topic Doctor issue:
Despite their vast training a sick note alone stating stress is not always enough. A sepcialised occupational physician would be in a much stronger position to make this call than a general practicioner. The same way a GP wouldn't diagnose cancer and that be the end of the situation. A GP may say that the individual is suffering from stress and possibly that according to the individual this is work related, but until a more detailed analysis of the work and the individual symptons is carried out, this isn't an established fact.

And yes plenty of GPs sign off on sick notes without conducting strong enough examinations.


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## terrysgirl33 (29 Sep 2008)

I have been off work twice with PND now.  Each time I was able to get up, get dressed, and carry out basic life functions, but I was in no way capable of going into work.


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## ClubMan (29 Sep 2008)

terrysgirl33 said:


> I have been off work twice with PND now.  Each time I was able to get up, get dressed, and carry out basic life functions, but I was in no way capable of going into work.


And...?


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## terrysgirl33 (29 Sep 2008)

Sorry, I was replying to those in the thread who seemed to think that if an employee was off on a sick cert, then there was something wrong with seeing them go shopping, or being out of the house.  Like I said, I was able to go out and about, but not able for work.

I hope the OP has found out what was going on!


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## Purple (29 Sep 2008)

If I was able to go shopping I'd go into work.


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## Complainer (29 Sep 2008)

Purple said:


> If I was able to go shopping I'd go into work.


I hope this isn't meant to imply that everyone else who is able to go shopping and doesn't go into work (specifically in cases of mental health illnesses) is malingering?


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## IrishAussie (1 Oct 2008)

Bowkett66 said:


> Hi I recevied a phone call from my manager yesterday requesting a meeting at home with a HR person present. I asked the reason for this and was advised that due to being of sick for three week would need to come and have a chat to see how things are going. Fine, my manager then said that she had another issue that she wished to talk to me about, but as I was not at work she would want to talk to me about this to. Asked why HR would be present and she said policy. Asked if I could have someone present was advised yes. Contacted HR later that day as something did not seem right went through this with HR guy who told me that manager had told him that my husband would be at the meeting in our own home. Advised that there seemed to be other issues that she did not want to disclose and should I have a union rep with me. He advised that perhaps I should. My manager seems to be trying to get rid of me and I have been feeling harrased by her. My medical problems have been genuine and my doctor advised that some of the stress from work are making them worse. Any suggestions??


 
Hi Bowkett66
I do hope your meeting, as stated above, went well, as this saga seems to be going on for ages. Hopefully you had an advocate present at the meeting who understood and advised you of your rights.
From what you said I think there are two issues ie (!) your medical condition (2)"other work issues" with your manager.
You stated that you have genuine medical problems which are now exacerbated by workrelated stress. Psychological Stress certainly is a major cause of illness no matter where it originates.
Once workrelated stress is mentioned Management, HR and Insurers go into overdrive. This is understandable as workrelated stress is compensable. Insurers dread this condition as it is quite complex sometimes to identify or seperate the cause, i.e. work-related or nonwork-related.
If your Doctor has issued a medical certificate stating your pre-existing medical condition is exacerbated by work-related stress this is a very serious diagnosis from a Management/HR/IR perspective. Many medical practitioners shy away from this diagnosis as it usually creates a lot of explaning for them. Insurers do not take this diagnosis lightly. Since it's not clear what the issues are between you and your manager it is difficult to give advice. It would seem that the issues are considerable as you mention that your manager is "trying to get rid" of you.
If your pre-existing medical condition is aggravated by the stress at work you have a right to claim workers compensation ie medical expenses, wages etc. If going down that road get advice and support immediately.
However, you need to understand that Management will not accept the diagnosis of a GP and has the right to refer you to a Doctor of choice, usually, an Occupational Physician and /or Medical Specialist/Psychologist, depending on your condition. There will also be an investigation into your claim by the Insurer who will interview you, your manager, and, other employees in your area of work. The Union will also investigate on your behalf, as well as HR/IR.
Ensure that you have a Union Rep. with you at every meeting. Get advice and support re your rights. Hopefully, you have written proof of your difficulties with your manager. Document every meeting with everyone.
Understand your rights re getting your medical expenses paid by the insurer if your condition is work-related. No payment will be made of course until investigations are complete. Hold your head high and do not let judgemental people upset you. So many people suffer in silence.

Good luck on your journey to full recovery.
IrishAussie


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