# Child Abuse Commission Report - Shame



## Teatime (21 May 2009)

After listening to harrowing stories on the radio over the past 2 days, I am not proud to be Irish. We have a lot to answer for.
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*The Conclusions *

- Physical and emotional abuse and neglect were features of the institutions. 
- The congregations' failure to manage schools led to institutional abuse. 
- The "deferential" and "submissive" attitude of the Department of Education towards the congregations compromised its ability to carry out its statutory duty to monitor schools. 
- Financial "commitments" made by the religious congregations allowed the industrial school system to thrive. 
- More kindness and humanity would have gone far to make up for the poor standards of care. 
*Physical Abuse* 
- Regulations regarding use of corporal punishment were disregarded. 
- Industrial schools depended on rigid control by means of severe corporal punishment to survive. 
- Children lived with the daily terror of not knowing where the next beating was coming from. 
- Children who ran away were subjected to extremely severe punishment. 
- Complaints by parents and others made to the Department of Education were not properly investigated. 
- Corporal punishment in girls' schools was "pervasive, severe, arbitrary and unpredictable". 
*Sexual Abuse* 
- Sexual abuse was endemic in boys' institutions. 
- Long-term offenders repeatedly abused children wherever they worked. 
- When confronted by evidence of sexual abuse, religious authorities responded by transferring the offender to another location where, in many cases, he was free to abuse again. 
- Congregational authorities did not listen to or believe people who complained of sexual abuse in the past, despite extensive evidence to the contrary. 
- Older boys sexually abused younger boys and the system did not offer the abused boys protection. 
- A culture of silence prevented sexual abuse by members of religious orders being brought to the department's attention. 
- The Department of Education dealt inadequately with sexual abuse complaints. 
*Neglect* 
- Poor standards of physical care were reported by most male and female complainants. 
- Children were frequently hungry and food was inadequate, inedible and badly prepared in many schools. 
- Children went cold because of inadequate clothing. 
- Accommodation was cold, spartan and bleak. Sanitary provision was primitive. 
- The standard of education in industrial schools was consistently poorer than in outside schools. 
- Industrial training served the institutions' needs rather than the children's. 
Emotional Abuse 
- Disadvantaged, neglected and abandoned children were subjected to disturbing level of abuse. 
- The system made it difficult for individual brothers, priests and nuns who tried to respond to emotional needs of children in their care. 
- Witnessing the abuse of other boys and girls had a harrowing effect on children in the schools. 
- Separating siblings and other restrictions on family contact were profoundly damaging for family relationships.


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## Firefly (21 May 2009)

Can't believe there has not been many acts of revenge...I know I'd get my back


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## dockingtrade (21 May 2009)

How can an organization knowingly have SO MANY active psychopaths and evil child rapists as part of thier organization in so many places for so long, and do nothing about it!!!
These people must have idenified the catholic church as a safe place to be allowed to do what they did with easy access to so many victims.

Think of it like this. 20 of us coach rugby for 200 kids and you know there are 2 active rapits raping the kids you coach and until theres a complaint thats the way it is, you just coach away. The one who's caught gets moved to coach the team down the road. 

Every priest (and i know some "decent" ones) in this country knows they are part of a church which had rampant child abuse for years and years and tried to cover it up and let it happen. How could they be part of that!!! Where was the outrage from "good" priests all these years. Where was thier demand to rid the church (acting on behalf of god) of pure rampant widespread EVIL. They chastise an umarried mother for her sin but ignore a child rapist.
How were those kids beaten so badly, abused so badly for such small things by people preaching on the alter about the love of god.

*The nazi hunters are running out of nazis, send them a new list!!!!*


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## DeeFox (21 May 2009)

I've read the summary and am absolutely horrified by it - it is sickening to think of all those in authority who did what they did.  I'm particularly struck by the part of the report which mentions those in their sixties and seventies who remember a kind act or word from when they were a child as it was such a rare occurence.  I'm keeping my head down at work this morning because I keep getting tears in my eyes anytime I think about it.


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## sam h (21 May 2009)

> Bishop Vincent Nichols will be installed as the Archbishop of Westminster later today, thereby becoming leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales.
> 
> 
> When asked about the contents of the report from the Child Abuse Commission, he described it as distressing and disturbing but said it had taken courage for members of the clergy to face up to the facts in their past.
> He said that the report should not overshadow all of the good that these clergy members had also done.


 
I couldn't believe he said this.  These clergy did not come forward volunarially - they had to be hounded out.  The only brave people here are the men & women who have fought for years to have their voices heard.  To think he will be the head of the Catholic church within these isles....he should be sacked!


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## ney001 (21 May 2009)

sam h said:


> I couldn't believe he said this.  These clergy did not come forward volunarially - they had to be hounded out.  The only brave people here are the men & women who have fought for years to have their voices heard.  To think he will be the head of the Catholic church within these isles....he should be sacked!



We all know how this is going to go, the pope will issue some weak apology as usual and state his 'horror' at what has happened and that will be that - a lot of references will be made to the 'good work' done by many and the evil done by few - but quite frankly as is obvious from the document the opposite is true.  Good work done by few, evil done by many.  If he was truly horrified and sickened by the abuse then as head of the church he would demand an investigation, find out who these people are and prosecute them, excommunicate them, name and shame them - open up the vast vatican banks and wealth to at least compensate them.  But as usual nothing like that will happen, they will retire and die and never have to even apologise for the evil things they have done.  

The pope will continue on his way lecturing people on being good, telling the people of Africa that they have to abstain from sex to stop spread of aids because condoms are not allowed! all the while he was part of the coverup of the greatest scandal in our nation and nations all around the world  - hundreds of thousands of people devastated, generations of families destroyed by the very people charged with ensuring their safety!.

I cannot tell you how happy I am that I made the decision not to get married in a church this year - I don't think I could stomach it!!

My heart goes out to those who have suffered, it's far to difficult for the majority of us to understand and comprehend and I sincerely hope they get the help, compensation and the forum to vent as much as they can!.


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## csirl (21 May 2009)

Dont forget that the State only got a small fraction of the compensation costs from the guilty parties. No indemnity should have been given or the costs passed through euro by euro. 

Missed a golden opportunity to bring a load of school and hospitals, which the State is currently paying the running and staff costs anyway and probably built through capital grants, into State ownership thus eliminating the religious stranglehold on the education and health sectors.


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## dewdrop (21 May 2009)

Has there been much comment about the role of the Courts/Gardai or whoever else who took the initial steps which led to these unfortunates been committed to the various institutions.


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## dockingtrade (21 May 2009)

sam h said:


> I couldn't believe he said this. These clergy did not come forward volunarially - they had to be hounded out. The only brave people here are the men & women who have fought for years to have their voices heard. To think he will be the head of the Catholic church within these isles....he should be sacked!


 
If he represents 'holy god' on earth he should be breathing fire that these people ever existed under the protected umbrella of the catholic church.


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## Slash (21 May 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> How can an organization knowingly have SO MANY active psychopaths and evil child rapists as part of thier organization in so many places for so long, and do nothing about it!!!



partly because many senior people in the church did not see anything wrong with what these priests and brothers were doing. It was considered by many to be a "priestly foible". They did not understand the damage that it caused to children.

One of the reasons why so many children ended up in these awful institutions was because their parents could not look after them, because they had 10 or more children. Why? Because the church told them it was their duty to do so. The church has so much to answer for.


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## Chocks away (21 May 2009)

As a practising RC for the first sixteen years of my life, I listened to clerics say "that many are called but few are chosen" in relation to 'vocations'. God had the ultimate say as to who was admitted to 'holy orders'. If those two statements are true then God has been showing a distinct lack of nous in the weeding out of paedophiles, sadists, megalomaniacs and thieves.


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## DeeFox (21 May 2009)

Slash said:


> One of the reasons why so many children ended up in these awful institutions was because their parents could not look after them, because they had 10 or more children. Why? Because the church told them it was their duty to do so. The church has so much to answer for.


 
Anyone remember a series called "Brides of Christ" shown years ago on RTE - featured a convent school in (I think) Australia and the importance of the religious authorities.  I remember a scene where a woman who already had six or so children was given the Pill by her Doctor as she was exhausted and thought she couldn't cope with more but then throwing the Pill away because of her "Catholic guilt" after a conversation with the priest.  My recollection of the programme is hazy because it was shown years ago and I was young watching it but this scene stuck in my head as it seemed so ridiculous.  I am one of a very large family myself - my parents were "good practising Catholics".  But when I think of the guilt instilled in some people by priests it makes my blood boil.  And it makes me sad for those people who have truly believed in the goodness of the Church to have to question their beliefs.


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## Teatime (21 May 2009)

Chocks away said:


> As a practising RC for the first sixteen years of my life, I listened to clerics say "that many are called but few are chosen" in relation to 'vocations'. God had the ultimate say as to who was admitted to 'holy orders'. If those two statements are true then God has been showing a distinct lack of nous in the weeding out of paedophiles, sadists, megalomaniacs and thieves.


 
I heard one interview where it was maintained that the bright intelligent sons were sent for further education and good jobs but the introverted, dumb & 'odd' sons were told to join the priesthood because they had no other options. That did not help.

I have tried to bring this subject up a few times in the office today and most people dont want to know. They just say "Terrible yeah but I dont want to think about it".


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## Westbound (21 May 2009)

I can't see how 'society' should be made to feel shame. I had no part in this and do not feel the collective shame we are being told to feel. That seems to me to be a very RC thing (I'm an RC BTW) - feel the shame. Anyone who spoke out was ostracised and that would have been led by the priest and the more powerful lay people.

What I do feel is anger at the extent of control the church had in the running of this state, a church that has shown itself to be a poison in the blood of this country. They have perpertarted such barbarity and cruelty and have utterly betrayed everything that is supposed to be Christian in thier actions. I feel betrayed by the Church that I am supposed to be a member of.

One wonders, as we look around the world at other poor catholic countries  - is this still going on. Or is it an Irish thing?


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## The_Banker (21 May 2009)

Outside of all the terrible stories of the abuse, pain and brutality inflicted on children that came to light yesterday one story stuck in my head.
It was the Christian Brother (not named) who apoligised to the Christian Brother Order for bringing the organisation into disrepute. 
He felt guilty for hurting the church but did not feel a pang of guilt for the pain inflicted on the children.
I think this may be the crux of the problem when people ask "Why did the 'good' priests not do something"? I believe its because they believed that they had a responsibility to the church or the order which superceded their responsibility to the children. The church (to them) symbolised the greater good and that was more important than a miserable orphan who may have been damaged by a man of the cloth.
The church still don't realise the damage it visited on children because if it did we would see them divesting themselves of there property/assets etc to make amends. And you and I know that that sure as hell isn't going to happen.


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## cork (21 May 2009)

The local church in my village could not see itself to sign over a small piece of land for sheltered houses for the elderly recently.

That said, they are good brothers, priests + nuns.

But that report was sickening. Such a cover up by civil servants, church etc. I don't have the words to express my feelings on it.


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## MandaC (21 May 2009)

I have been through this first hand as my Dad was an orphan and grew up in Artane Industrial School.  He never told us much about his past until his name was published in a book about Artane (without his permission I might add)  

It was a breaking point because it gave reasons and answers as to why our family was totally disfunctional and why people were certain ways.  Our own family life was quite tough as children, because of the effects of that place.  It is only now that my Dad is in his late 60's that I can have any type of normal relationship with him, because to be honest, before that he had his own problems and lashed out at those closest to him.  it is sometimes hard to relate the adult with their own issues to the unloved lonely child.

People all have comments about the topic, but until you have through it, honestly you havent got a clue.  


He will certainly say there was some really good brothers there for the good of the children.  

I will also say at this point that way some of the people were treated in respect of the monetary compensation issued was disgraceful, but obviously I cant go into too much for legal reasons.

To be perfectly honest people are going on about it in work today, and I know they mean well saying how awful it is etc, but to be honest I feel like telling them to sod off.  I have actually said a couple to times today - my Dad grew up there and it has stopped the conversation in its tracks.  It is easy to talk about it and then for it to be yesterdays news.   Please be careful when you are having conversations with workmates/colleagues etc as some people may not wish to discuss it as a water cooler conversation when it is close to home.


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## dodo (21 May 2009)

This is the reason why I gave up on God many years ago,how if he exists could he stand by and let this happen to young innocent children.
After all he is God of power and might what good did that do for those children.
I can't believe that the cover up still goes on by that I mean nobody  will be named  or sent to jail which to me is to good for them(death penalty  would be more appropriate for those monsters).The government agreed  to this because there was people in power who knew this went on so this will now remain an unclosed case.
And now the talk of the 128 Million the church are giving and government now say to many legal reasons why they can't get more.If the church had any remorse or even any moral standing they  would not have to be asked for more money they should  quite simply just give it.
The one thing I will say is that a priest  does not become a  pedophile but rather a pedophile becomes a priest to gain access to young children.
But the church knew about this and the government of the time but they felt those children  did not deserve  their sympathy or  help.Shame on them all.


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## Henny Penny (21 May 2009)

I am saddened by this report - I am angry that children were not considered human by the church and state.


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## Sunny (22 May 2009)

MandaC said:


> I have been through this first hand as my Dad was an orphan and grew up in Artane Industrial School. He never told us much about his past until his name was published in a book about Artane (without his permission I might add)
> 
> It was a breaking point because it gave reasons and answers as to why our family was totally disfunctional and why people were certain ways. Our own family life was quite tough as children, because of the effects of that place. It is only now that my Dad is in his late 60's that I can have any type of normal relationship with him, because to be honest, before that he had his own problems and lashed out at those closest to him. it is sometimes hard to relate the adult with their own issues to the unloved lonely child.
> 
> ...


 
Good post and I really feel for you but you would be amazed how many families are affected by it. I think most of us know someone who went through the system. At the moment, we are trying to get my Granny to go into a Nursing home as she needs full time care. She was an orphan and grew up in that system and while she never talked about, it was in one of the schools mentioned so I can get an idea about what went on. Made my dad and uncle promise that she would never be put in a home again but they are not in a position to provide the care she needs. Its heartbreaking.  I know hearing about it must be difficult but I hope that people keep talking about it even if they don't fully understand the horrific nature and consequences of the abuse and neglect. This was hidden and spoken about in whispers for too long.


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## Lak (22 May 2009)

I caught the tail end of Vincent Brown yesterday evening where it was mentioned that Bertie Ahern ensured a motion was passed more or less single handedly that ensured no one would ever be persued for these henious crimes.
If there is any truth in this matter then for all the despicable tghings Ahern has done every single one fades into insignificance if he is even remotely party to ensureing that vile child rapists will never be bought to answer for their crimes. In effect making laws to legitamise paeodophillia in any way shape or form in my eyes renders this man as the lowest form of life on this planet and anyone associated with him, certainly politically to boot !


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## Slash (24 May 2009)

Isn't there a curious irony in all of this, in that we have the Catholic Church on the one hand telling us that homosexuaility is unnatural and a "sin", and, on the other hand, the same Catholic Church is doing its level best to defend and protect the queer priests and brothers who sexually abused little boys.


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## mathepac (24 May 2009)

Teatime said:


> After listening to harrowing stories on the radio over the past 2 days, I am not proud to be Irish...


Horrific as the stories on the radio and the Commission Report are, they do not in any way alter my sense of pride in my nationality.


Teatime said:


> ... We have a lot to answer for...


How dare you assume to speak on my behalf.

Some people in certain religious organisations, the Catholic Church, various arms of the Government and / or the Civil Service *may* have a lot to answer for, but to attempt to attribute blame to an entire nation is the the same thinking that made it legal to post notices in Great Britain in the past that said "No Blacks or Irish need apply".

In other words it is stereotypical racist thinking, which can be every bit as sick and damaging as the activities you are condemning.

In the context of the radio programmes and the Commission Report, I have nothing to answer for.


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## Chocks away (24 May 2009)

CORI should be asked if it is a christian outfit or a bunch of legally minded bagmen. And how can it reconcile it's recent statement with what the vast majority of the population think.


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## Complainer (24 May 2009)

Slash said:


> Isn't there a curious irony in all of this, in that we have the Catholic Church on the one hand telling us that homosexuaility is unnatural and a "sin", and, on the other hand, the same Catholic Church is doing its level best to defend and protect the queer priests and brothers who sexually abused little boys.


What went on in those institutions has nothing to do with homosexuality.


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## Chocks away (24 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> What went on in those institutions has nothing to do with homosexuality.


No? I thought a sexual act between same-sex people was deemed homosexual - whether consenting or otherwise.


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## Slash (24 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> What went on in those institutions has nothing to do with homosexuality.



Wha'? Of course it has! That's the most ridiculous thing I have read so far this week.


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## MrMan (25 May 2009)

Slash said:


> Wha'? Of course it has! That's the most ridiculous thing I have read so far this week.


 
Raping children is a crime and a sin of course, do you think that the priests who did this thought homosexuality is a sin but their actions weren't? These men were not acting on behalf of the church or the country they were and are simply vile perverts.


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## Complainer (25 May 2009)

Slash said:


> Wha'? Of course it has! That's the most ridiculous thing I have read so far this week.





Chocks away said:


> No? I thought a sexual act between same-sex people was deemed homosexual - whether consenting or otherwise.



Homosexuality is  a sexual attraction or desire or relationship. What went on here was not about actions/desires/relations. It was about power, and using sexual abuse as a form of control. It wasn't about sex.


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## Slash (25 May 2009)

This thread is taking a turn in a direction that I think is not appropriate for a forum like AAM. So, this will be my last contribution to this thread.

There is absolutely no doubt that the priests and brothers who sexually abused boys were queers. It is simply not possible for a straight man to do something like that with another male.


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## Lak (25 May 2009)

Slash you state the blindingly obvious, for the benefit of complainer who must be clearly utterly insane if he believes his own theory.


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## Complainer (25 May 2009)

Slash said:


> This thread is taking a turn in a direction that I think is not appropriate for a forum like AAM. So, this will be my last contribution to this thread.
> 
> There is absolutely no doubt that the priests and brothers who sexually abused boys were queers. It is simply not possible for a straight man to do something like that with another male.





legs-akimbo said:


> Slash you state the blindingly obvious, for the benefit of complainer who must be clearly utterly insane if he believes his own theory.



I find it strange that an adult would use the term 'queers' in a discussion like this. We need to move beyond the schoolyard if we are ever going to address these issues.

If you do a bit of research into paedophilia, you will find that many paedophiles will switch easily between male and female victims. It is not about sex or sexuality. It is about power and control.


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## Caveat (25 May 2009)

I completely agree with Complainer here.

What about male rape in prisons - does anyone seriously think these thugs are 'homosexuals'?


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## Chocks away (25 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> It was about power, and using sexual abuse as a form of control. It wasn't about sex.


 That doesn't explain the sexual urge. If people didn't enjoy sex the world would not be populating at this incredible speed. The perpetrators here enjoyed the sexual act with those kids. Predatory homosexuals and, in some cases, paedophiles. I'm sure if they wanted to control (only), the cane, strap, hectoring browbeating and physical punishment would have sated their tendencies. Of course you had some of these as well but here we're talking about sexual behaviour.


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## Chocks away (25 May 2009)

Caveat said:


> I completely agree with Complainer here.
> 
> What about male rape in prisons - does anyone seriously think these thugs are 'homosexuals'?


 They are indulging in homosexual behaviour. You get cases of beastiality, and yet those so inclined to this type of behaviour are not animals (in the true sense of the word). Likewise, people act the clown without being clowns!


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## Sunny (25 May 2009)

Seriously guys. Who the hell brought homosexuality into this discussion anyway? It was child abuse. Has got nothing to do with being homosexual or hetrosexual. Are people seriously saying the boys were abused by male priests because the priests were gay?


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## Sunny (25 May 2009)

By the way, has the Pope commented on the report yet? I haven't seen anything which surprises me greatly.


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## mathepac (25 May 2009)

Sunny said:


> ... Are people seriously saying the boys were abused by male priests because the priests were gay?


One poster, @Chocks away, with support from @legs-akimbo, is certainly working from that premise, but has chosen to use a term generally regarded as homophobic  in place of either "gay" or "homosexual".


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## mathepac (25 May 2009)

sam h said:


> ...  To think he will be the head of the Catholic church within these isles....he should be sacked!


I don't know where you live, but as he is head of the *Catholic Church in England and Wales*, we will be outside his administrative bailiwick.


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## wavejumper (25 May 2009)

Slash said:


> Isn't there a curious irony in all of this, in that we have the Catholic Church on the one hand telling us that homosexuaility is unnatural and a "sin", and, on the other hand, the same Catholic Church is doing its level best to defend and protect the queer priests and brothers who sexually abused little boys.



Pedophilia and homosexuality are two separate things.  

I have seen a recent program on some UK channel where a priest was also trying to blame the abuse on 'the homosexuals'.  This is a very sneaky way of the church to try to offload the blame on one of their pet hate groups.

As I said pedophilia is not homesexuality.  What went on in the Irish institutions was perpetrated by perverts.  Homosexuals don't go abusing children, perverts do.  Try not to be brainwashed by the church as it tries to wriggle its way out of this.


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## MrMan (25 May 2009)

wavejumper said:


> Pedophilia and homosexuality are two separate things.
> 
> I have seen a recent program on some UK channel where a priest was also trying to blame the abuse on 'the homosexuals'. This is a very sneaky way of the church to try to offload the blame on one of their pet hate groups.
> 
> As I said pedophilia is not homesexuality. What went on in the Irish institutions was perpetrated by perverts. Homosexuals don't go abusing children, perverts do. Try not to be brainwashed by the church as it tries to wriggle its way out of this.


 
Your right on your points re homosexual and paedophila being seperate but the church is not the exclusive breeding ground for perverts. Perverts operated within the church and every other organisation, this is often a discussion that is used to hammer the church which is a bit distasteful really.


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## Mpsox (25 May 2009)

what really shocked me over the weekend was 2 photos in the papers, one of the dorms in Artane which was just line after line of beds, no privacy or anything and another of the ref with the boys at dinner. I tried to count the heads and came up with a ball park figure of at least 800 boys. I then heard over the weekend someone on the radio use the phrase "headage payments", similer to what a farmer get's these days for cattle for the EU. No doubting that a fundamental reasons behind the schools existance was money

My mother, who is in her 70s, once made a telling statement to me about the church she said people didn't worship God back then, they worshipped the priest and to me, that explains why they got away with it for so long. Few dared to question the churches authority. Even those that did ( and in fairness, some did) were given no backing or guidance from those in charge

The Catholic Church is not wholly to blame however, the state has to take a lot of responsibilty, in partciular the Dept of Ed civil servants, likwise the Gardai who often turned a blind eye, and the farming community who bascially got slaves out of this. 

Germany has it's Jewish shame, America has it's slavery shame, this is Irelands shame


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## Bronte (25 May 2009)

Some people need to get a grip. Do those who think the male paedophiles who raped boys would not have raped girls.  They just didn't have access to them.  Also girls can become pregnant.  Why else were nuns looking after girls and brothers/priests after boys.  It was deliberately organised that way.  

I don't believe there is such a thing as a good priest/brother/nun in any of the institutions where the abuses occured as in reality they colluded with what was going on by doing nothing about it.  They are even more evil in the sense that they knew better.     

Where can one find a link/website to see what land/assets/money has actually been handed over by which organisation.  How is the transfer done by the religious orders.  Can the Irish state/health board/religious orders.

Also I understand that the Church is all about money.  What did the religious orders do with the profits they made on the breaking of Irish children's spirits?

Has there been any statistics on what happened to the children of these institutions, as in where they worked, in what profession, how many married, did they emigrate.  

Can a case be taken against the Irish Government/Health Board/Judicial system/relgious orders under human rights legislation.  I'm amazed no child of these institutions has done so, is it becase they are so broken by the system.  

How many children are in care in Ireland today (I believe it's 5K).  Is everything in relation to this held in secret.  How and who takes children from families and where do they go.  

I can't refer to what went on because I get too upset, but I'd like to think we could do something about what goes on now.  Probably nobody cares.  A really sick society.  I am ashamed.


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## mathepac (25 May 2009)

Mpsox said:


> ... Germany has it's Jewish shame, America has it's slavery shame, this is Irelands shame


I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here, but you should be aware that anti-Jewish violence is not something that is / was exclusively German.

For example, we have had anti-Jewish pogroms in Cork, Limerick and Dublin during the 19th & 20th centuries, there were anti-Jewish riots in Britain soon after the Second World War and pogroms in Poland during and after the  Second World War ( by the indigenous Poles, not the invading Germans or their allies).

I have no idea why you have chosen to single America out in relation to slavery, as the bulk of the slaves that wound up in the continental United States were shipped / traded there by colonist Europeans (Britain, France, Belgium, etc.) and the pursuits and endeavours  that lead to the use of slave labour (cotton, sugar-cane, etc.) were also established by the self-same colonists. I think its to America's credit that they had abolished slavery within 80 years of independence from Britain.

I have responded to "Irelands shame" in a previous post and I believe some of my comments there are equally relevant here.


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## Complainer (25 May 2009)

Caveat said:


> What about male rape in prisons - does anyone seriously think these thugs are 'homosexuals'?


Indeed - and what about the many 'straight' married men who are the best customers for rent boys and gay saunas?


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## Mel (25 May 2009)

Mpsox said:


> My mother, who is in her 70s, once made a telling statement to me about the church she said people didn't worship God back then, they worshipped the priest and to me, that explains why they got away with it for so long. Few dared to question the churches authority. Even those that did ( and in fairness, some did) were given no backing or guidance from those in charge


 
Speaking to my parents about this over the weekend, my mother told me that when her grandmother died, her children were very young, and the parish priest tried to force the 4 children to be taken into an orphanage, despite having a capable father to look after them. When I asked what business was it of the PP, she said that in those days the PP 'ran' the parish, and dictated what happened, and nobody questioned it. People were afraid of their priests rather than of God. 
Very luckily, my great-grandfather appears to have been a strong character, and this wasn't the only time he stood up to the PP and went against the accepted practices of the time (1910's to 1950's) , for the better of our family in the long run.


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## Chocks away (25 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> Indeed - and what about the many 'straight' married men who are the best customers for rent boys and gay saunas?


 Any figures here? Any links?


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## Mpsox (25 May 2009)

mathepac said:


> I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here, but you should be aware that anti-Jewish violence is not something that is / was exclusively German.
> 
> For example, we have had anti-Jewish pogroms in Cork, Limerick and Dublin during the 19th & 20th centuries, there were anti-Jewish riots in Britain soon after the Second World War and pogroms in Poland during and after the Second World War ( by the indigenous Poles, not the invading Germans or their allies).
> 
> ...


 
I'm well aware both of my own countries history and that of others as well, thank you very much. I was in no way stating that anti Jewish pogroms was simply a German issue, sadly it has happened in countries around the world. Likewise, slavery is still practised in some countires.

I was simply making a point that in the same way that the extermination of the Jews in Germany by the Nazis and the mis-treatment of African Americans in the USA are a stain on the history of those 2 great nations, this scandal will be a stain on ours


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## Chocks away (25 May 2009)

MrMan said:


> Your right on your points re homosexual and paedophila being seperate but the church is not the exclusive breeding ground for perverts. Perverts operated within the church and every other organisation, this is often a discussion that is used to hammer the church which is a bit distasteful really.


 The very fact that the church preached against this sort of behaviour and then allowed it to flourish is the sad/illegal thing. Offending priests did use the confessional to elicit information which was later used for their own nefarious purposes. And so, while committing illegal acts, hiding behind the curtain of infallibility (which can be confused with legality). Even in Irish seminaries there have been recent cases of homosexual rings operating. (AFAIK, nothing was said about paedophilia). Michael Ledwith's hasty departure from St. Patrick's College, Maynooth (where he was president) is testament to this. He now "lectures" at a cult headquarters in Washington.


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## DeeFox (25 May 2009)

Chocks away said:


> Offending priests did use the confessional to elicit information which was later used for their own nefarious purposes.


 

How do you mean?


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## Complainer (25 May 2009)

Chocks away said:


> Any figures here? Any links?


It is a bit difficult to google on these topics, without getting mired down on dubious sites. Do you reckon that there aren't many straight/married customers of rent boys and gay saunas?


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## Chocks away (25 May 2009)

DeeFox said:


> How do you mean?


Sexually corrupt priests using the confessional to find out likeminded people. Many documented cases. Put in a search.


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## casiopea (25 May 2009)

Mpsox said:


> My mother, who is in her 70s, once made a telling statement to me about the church she said people didn't worship God back then, they worshipped the priest and to me, that explains why they got away with it for so long. Few dared to question the churches authority. Even those that did ( and in fairness, some did) were given no backing or guidance from those in charge



My mum said nearly exactly the same to me at the weekend.  She said even as a 5 year old at (a nun ran) boarding school she was aware that the nuns who ran her school and everyday life reported to no-one.


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## MrMan (25 May 2009)

Chocks away said:


> The very fact that the church preached against this sort of behaviour and then allowed it to flourish is the sad/illegal thing. Offending priests did use the confessional to elicit information which was later used for their own nefarious purposes. And so, while committing illegal acts, hiding behind the curtain of infallibility (which can be confused with legality). Even in Irish seminaries there have been recent cases of homosexual rings operating. (AFAIK, nothing was said about paedophilia). Michael Ledwith's hasty departure from St. Patrick's College, Maynooth (where he was president) is testament to this. He now "lectures" at a cult headquarters in Washington.


 
What individual priests did was illegal that is correct. Any high profile cleric that allowed it to go on should also see jail, but the church does not approve nor encourage this behaviour within the organisation. 
The curtain of infallibilty is not there as priests have not claimed to be infallible, they don't claim to be different from us. These things happened when men were able to abuse their power with terrible effect, that is hopefully not the case now.


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## Chocks away (25 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> It is a bit difficult to google on these topics, without getting mired down on dubious sites. Do you reckon that there aren't many straight/married customers of rent boys and gay saunas?


I understand the dilemma. I was just curious as to the origin of thes claims. And any figures to back them up. I would have thought that most married men, who were in a nice loving relationship with their wives, would pass up on the chance of picking up something for the sake of a cheap thrill. I also understand the psychological lure of _liaisons dangereux._


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## Chocks away (25 May 2009)

MrMan said:


> What individual priests did was illegal that is correct. Any high profile cleric that allowed it to go on should also see jail, but the church does not approve nor encourage this behaviour within the organisation.
> The curtain of infallibilty is not there as priests have not claimed to be infallible, they don't claim to be different from us. These things happened when men were able to abuse their power with terrible effect, that is hopefully not the case now.



Touche!


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## redstar (25 May 2009)

MrMan said:


> What individual priests did was illegal that is correct. Any high profile cleric that allowed it to go on should also see jail, but the church does not approve nor encourage this behaviour within the organisation.


True, but unfortunately this is only part of the story. No cleric will see jail because the church responded to wrong-doing among its ranks by buying off the govt - no names are named, very little recompense is paid to victims. It is precisely this way of operating by the Church that has angered so many. Their first priority has been to protect the organisation rather than the victims.



> These things happened when men were able to abuse their power with terrible effect, that is hopefully not the case now.


I really hope so. 
The recent remarks by the Archbishop of Dublin to CORI (that they should reconsider the 'deal' done with the Govt) is an encouraging step in the right direction and is to be applauded.


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## Phibbleberry (25 May 2009)

I have to say that as much as I never doubted the stories that have come out over the years, I'm still shocked at the sheer volume of cases that the commission has brought to public consciousness...

I believe that the main problem, as has been mentioned earlier in the thread, was the fact that in generations past, there was a huge element of priest-fearing rather than god-fearing. 

A point that was made earlier was that priests did not become paedophiles rather than the reverse and I think that this is supported in other organisations and situations: Scouts/Swimming Clubs etc..people moved themselves into situations where their urges could be easily facilitated. 
I realise that sexual abuse isn't confined to 'people in authority' be it, state, church or otherwise and that familial abuse is/was widespread, but the 'silence' that came with it is shocking. Family members have just as much if not more, of a duty of care to kids as the state did in these institutions. But that doesn't justify anything...needless to say.

The lack of belief (until now) in some peoples stories is truly mindblowing and I only hope instances of this sort of abuse are more unlikely now given the propensity to reaction by society if there is even a hint of a suspected case (although this in itself can be problematic, given the ease at which someone can make a false claim) - I think any hint of abuse should be investigated thoroughly to asscertain the probability of truth.

My fear is that, if this was going on in a so-called civilised society as Ireland, what kind of atrocities that must have been visited upon those vunerable children where missionaries and volunteers had unlimited access to kids...? Again, not to say that it was just those from religious orders that were inclined to these 'vocations'.

My heart goes out to everyone affected - you really don't know how lucky you were to have had such a lovely childhood until you read of the hardships of others....the precieved injustice of not having had the latest barbie/doll seems so insignificant...


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## Teatime (25 May 2009)

What sickens me is that the religious institutions knew about priests and brothers who were abusing children and only acted when there was a public complaint - their solution in almost all cases was to 'move them on'. One priest was 'moved on' to 6 parishes and abused children in all 6.

The church has never offered any information/records on the people who they found committing child abuse. They left it to the victims to re-open their traumatic past.

I forced myself to read and listen to the awful stories in the Ryan report at the weekend. Children forced to eat their own excrement, children forced to eat their own vomit, children beaten regularly sometimes to death, children jumping out windows to avoid another beating, brutal acts of violence, children being gang-raped, children forced to give oral sex, children being locked away on their own for days in sheds, children freezing due to lack of clothes, children listening and witnessing the above, children not let see any of their family for years....Then there were the stories of how many of these people fared as adults, how their families have been affected etc. It was upsetting but the upset has now turned to anger.


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## Birroc (25 May 2009)

MrMan said:


> What individual priests did was illegal that is correct. Any high profile cleric that allowed it to go on should also see jail, but the church does not approve nor encourage this behaviour within the organisation.
> The curtain of infallibilty is not there as priests have not claimed to be infallible, they don't claim to be different from us. These things happened when men were able to abuse their power with terrible effect, that is hopefully not the case now.


 
The christian religion has everything to do with this. If you want to take the supposed teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ as a personal philosophy then fair enough and all credit to you, however, throw the word 'religion' in the mix and you've got a completely different situation. Organised religion is, was, and always will be a sophisticated system of social control. It has sweet f all to do with loving your neighbour. This was more than a group of sick individuals, this was entirely institutional in almost every sense. For me these crimes were a manifestation of the very nature of the institution, and as such the institution itself is the issue. 

I would suggest that the manner of the church's responses entirely bear out this perspective, in particular the extensive efforts to suppress the victim's demands for acknowledgement of their suffering. The pattern of behaviour simply repeats itself in various extremes over time. The central point is the church doesn't have problems, the church is the problem.


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## MrMan (26 May 2009)

Birroc said:


> The christian religion has everything to do with this. If you want to take the supposed teachings of This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ as a personal philosophy then fair enough and all credit to you, however, throw the word 'religion' in the mix and you've got a completely different situation. Organised religion is, was, and always will be a sophisticated system of social control. It has sweet f all to do with loving your neighbour. This was more than a group of sick individuals, this was entirely institutional in almost every sense. For me these crimes were a manifestation of the very nature of the institution, and as such the institution itself is the issue.
> 
> I would suggest that the manner of the church's responses entirely bear out this perspective, in particular the extensive efforts to suppress the victim's demands for acknowledgement of their suffering. The pattern of behaviour simply repeats itself in various extremes over time. The central point is the church doesn't have problems, the church is the problem.


 
Because I state that the church doesn't approve or encourage rape and that priests are not infallible you deduce that I take the teachings of Christ as a personal philosophy??
Terrible crimes were committed by evil men and women that is a fact, what is far from fact is that the church represents an institution that is a breeding ground for perverts. To take such a narrow view of the church misses the point and this argument is frequently used to batter the church as awhole rather than examine the role of the church with an open mind.


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## Complainer (26 May 2009)

Unmissable TV

from Questions and Answers.


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## The_Banker (26 May 2009)

Complainer said:


> Unmissable TV
> 
> from Questions and Answers.


 
I watched and listened to that last night and it sent shivers down my spine.
To be honest it scared the hell out of me just listening to it.


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## Bronte (26 May 2009)

The Roman Catholic Church encourages and aids and abets rape and abuse and neglect by 
1. Allowing abusers into their organisation
2. When they discover them moving them on
3. Covering up for them
4. Forgiving them
5. Calling them ill
6. Not reporting them to the gardai
7. Having the 'Roman Catholics' in the judiciary, health board, education board, government on their side 

The Church is as we speak trying to say it's only x percent of the organisation that is say a paedophile/abuser, they don't say that nearly 100% of their organisation goes along with it and are just as guilty. In any case it seems very particular to the Roman Catholic Church as the equivalent Protestant organisation did not have anything like the same percentage of abusers.

People should ask themselves the following questions:
1. Why is it not mandatory the reporting of any abuse to the gardai
2. Why should an organisation that is systematic in it's abuse be allowed today to have anything to do with children or vulnerable sections of society
3. Why when the Church negotiates with the state is it not clarified if the person acting on behalf of the state is independant.
4. Why doesn't the Church have a moral obligation to report abuse
5. Why doesn't the Church automatically disbar any abusers from it's organisation
6. Why doesn't the Church even today feel it has the moral obligation to pay the victims of abuse. They are very quick to give us moral guidence in all other aspects of our lives. 
7. Why doesn't the Church today report abusers to the gardai, including those that were abusers in the past. They know who they are. 

I was wondering about the legal status/Charitable status of the Roman Catholic organisations, I assume they have a special tax status, as they have not been in any way Charitable the Revenue Commissioners might want to go back on their tax affairs (into the mists of time as is their right) to tax them on the profits they made on the sweat, tears and blood of children.

It is quite extraordinary that one single solitary Garda has been appointed to see if prosecutions can be taken. We are taking about multiple rapes, depravation, abuse, murder, neglect. Is the Garda independant etc. 

I cannot get the image of the guy who set himself on fire to the death on Hamstead Heath out of my head. Peter Tyrell.


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## RMCF (26 May 2009)

^^^

Agree 100%. Time to freeze their assets, make a stand against this vile evil. Its a shame that the CC seems to carry so much power in Ireland. This story is ruining our country's reputation around the world.

Did anyone see that old man on Q&A last night? His words brought a lump to my throat. You can see just what these so called 'Christians' have done to him - he is a broken man.


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## Teatime (26 May 2009)

RMCF said:


> ^^^
> 
> Agree 100%. Time to freeze their assets, make a stand against this vile evil. Its a shame that the CC seems to carry so much power in Ireland. This story is ruining our country's reputation around the world.
> 
> Did anyone see that old man on Q&A last night? His words brought a lump to my throat. You can see just what these so called 'Christians' have done to him - he is a broken man.


 
Just saw it now on youtube. That took great courage. Incredible.


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## dockingtrade (26 May 2009)

Bronte said:


> The Roman Catholic Church encourages and aids and abets rape and abuse and neglect by
> 1. Allowing abusers into their organisation
> 2. When they discover them moving them on
> 3. Covering up for them
> ...


 
I agree with you 100%

systematic rape and abuse by any other organization would lead to the cesation of that org and the freezing of its assets and a full CRIMINAL invetigation.
If the good people of these orders want to continue teir good work let them under a different guise!!
Now is not the time for asking these people (the "religious"), just GO IN THEIR AND SHUT THEM DOWN AND TAKE THIER BLOOD MONEY OFF THEM!!! for god's sake find justice for the victims!!!!


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## Teatime (26 May 2009)

We suffered less under British rule. I wonder are we all becoming protestants now ? I mean wasn't protestantism born from clerics protesting at 'corruption' in the catholic church and not accepting that the pope was God's representative on earth because he didn't practice what he preached.

Where is the God that destroyed the bad people of Sodom & Gomarra and turned people to salt (for looking back)? Did he not see Letterfrack, Artane, Daingean?

I dont know. I just feel sick these days.


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## Chocks away (26 May 2009)

This morning on Newstalk a nun (Mary Ann O Connor) was asked straight questions by Ivan Yates and Claire Byrne. She fudged and on one occasion said she did not understand the question. The question was not a trick and had less than twenty words. A clerical bean counter, she exhibited no emotion in her voice, came up with stock answers and was a disgrace to womankind. Protecting the purse strings of the orders is what CORI is about. She refused to answer who her boss was, hiding behind that well known religious get out of jail card - canon law. This is mumbo jumbo. Decisions can be made quite quickly when necessary. The recent excommunications in Brazil prove that. This, here in Ireland, has been rumbling on for so long. Initiatives have been stymied by the church. It's within the government's power to confiscate assests, freeze bank accounts and remove the tax breaks.


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## Chocks away (26 May 2009)

I wholeheartedly agree with Bronte's synopsis.


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## Shawady (26 May 2009)

Can anyone answer this question; Why is nobody being investigated and charged for these crimes?

Is it because they took place a long time ago?


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## Chocks away (26 May 2009)

Shawady said:


> Can anyone answer this question; Why is nobody being investigated and charged for these crimes?
> 
> Is it because they took place a long time ago?


 Because the political will isn't there. Just wait and see, if the whole country rise up in arms about this and politicians see that there are votes to be got, then you will get action.


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## Cayne (26 May 2009)

The_Banker said:


> I watched and listened to that last night and it sent shivers down my spine.
> To be honest it scared the hell out of me just listening to it.


 
You werent the only one! I dont think I have been as moved as I was watching rte last night.

Very brave of him to tell his story so well.

CORI are in the business of morality but they are showing themselves to be hypocrites.


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## Sunny (26 May 2009)

Shawady said:


> Can anyone answer this question; Why is nobody being investigated and charged for these crimes?
> 
> Is it because they took place a long time ago?


 
As far as I know the report is being looked at by the guards but they are in an impossible situation. It is very unlikely that any criminal charges can be brought at this stage. Does anyone know if there is a block on people bringing individual civil suits against the Religious Orders and the State or does everything have to go through the redress board? I am not sure how the legislation was set up. 

By the way, is it true that Michael Woods is a member of Opus Dei? Just thought that I would throw that conspiracy out there!


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## Chocks away (26 May 2009)

I read an article recently - on line - that he is a member. However, I think that he himself has denied it. About getting help from the Gardai? Well, it has been argued over the years that anyone above the rank of Super, would shall we say, have a special relationship with opus dei members.


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## Sunny (26 May 2009)

Chocks away said:


> I read an article recently - on line - that he is a member. However, I think that he himself has denied it. About getting help from the Gardai? Well, it has been argued over the years that anyone above the rank of Super, would shall we say, have a special relationship with opus dei members.


 
That might be a conspiracy theory too far for me!!
To be fair, you can't blame for the Guards for this mess. They didn't give the Christian Brothers immunity for testifying at the commission and they don't decide if charges can be brought. 
By the way, there are a lot of victims out there that don't want a criminal investigation launched as well. Alot of victims testified to the confidential committee because they simply wanted an official forum in which they were listened to.


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## Shawady (26 May 2009)

Is the CORI the same organisation that has been part of the social partnership? Wasn't there some priest/bishop from CORI advising the government on economic poliy after McCreevy was shipped off to Brussels and Bertie became a socialist?


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## Sunny (26 May 2009)

Shawady said:


> Is the CORI the same organisation that has been part of the social partnership? Wasn't there some priest/bishop from CORI advising the government on economic poliy after McCreevy was shipped off to Brussels and Bertie became a socialist?


 
Yep, they are the ones! Anyone else think it strange that over the past few years all the Religious Orders seem to have placed their assets in Trusts. Almost like they knew what was coming! They obviously got good financial and legal advice.

Having said that, the various religious orders do a lot of good in this Country in areas like education and health. Not suggesting in any way that this atones for their past sins but it is worth remembering.


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## Chocks away (26 May 2009)

Libby Purves wrote a very good article yesterday in TIMESONLINE.


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## DublinTexas (26 May 2009)

I still wonder how it comes that we have not expelled the people responsible for this mess and cover up from the country. Send them to their own state (Vatican City).

If you ask me it’s time to expel the Papal Nuncio, as long as a foreign state and their organisations and representatives are hindering the prosecution of child molesters they have no place in this country.

I fully agree that it’s time to address this on an easy basis.

You did a crime – you do the time.

You helped with the crime – you do the time. 

And if we can’t prosecute an individual because an organisation is covering up for them it’s time to call them what they are – a criminal organisation or in this case criminal enterprise. In the US I would call for a RICO investigation, but I think our CAB would be overwhelmed with that as the Bank Fiasco show.

To give tax shelters/benefits or even a limit to their financial responsibility for making good towards the victims is outrages. Instead of doing this we should revoke the tax benefits for the period in question and treat those years as if they have been a criminal enterprise. 

But maybe I just see it too simple.


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## ivuernis (26 May 2009)

The_Banker said:


> I watched and listened to that last night and it sent shivers down my spine.
> To be honest it scared the hell out of me just listening to it.



Powerful and unsettling stuff, took a lot of courage, I had a lump in my throat watching it.


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## Phibbleberry (26 May 2009)

I just watched the Q&A clip - words don't suffice.


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## Bronte (26 May 2009)

DublinTexas said:


> And if we can’t prosecute an individual because an organisation is covering up for them it’s time to call them what they are – a criminal organisation or in this case criminal enterprise.


 
On this point, if the money the religious orders were given by the state to care for children was used elsewhere (in the Christian Brothers case for their other schools) can the state recoup this money?


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## DublinTexas (26 May 2009)

Bronte said:


> On this point, if the money the religious orders were given by the state to care for children was used elsewhere (in the Christian Brothers case for their other schools) can the state recoup this money?


 
I think that our government lacks the strength and the backbone to even try to get any money back.

There is currently enough mismanagement of funds going on that is not tackled so I seriously question if our government is actually able to even try.


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## dockingtrade (26 May 2009)

what organization would be allowed stand today if it had a brutal sick derpraved evil  history like those in this report. These orgs need to be disbanded and their assets broken up and liquidated. For those who say they do good today and there are good people doing good work, let them continue their good work but not under these organizations!! why would anyone want to be associated with these organizations. You cant have *thousands* of victims passing these institutions everyday and have them operate in their area knowing what they did to them.


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## MrMan (26 May 2009)

dockingtrade said:


> what organization would be allowed stand today if it had a brutal sick derpraved evil history like those in this report. These orgs need to be disbanded and their assets broken up and liquidated. For those who say they do good today and there are good people doing good work, let them continue their good work but not under these organizations!! why would anyone want to be associated with these organizations. You cant have *thousands* of victims passing these institutions everyday and have them operate in their area knowing what they did to them.


 
I would think it is because those doing good are following a vocation and would have to endure the the mud being slung at them because of their continued membership. They are not doing chores, they are serving God, whether you or I believe in God is a mute point because they do and they cannot simply walk away because of the crimes of others. 
We are now seeing just how evil men can be, these men did not do evil in the name of God, they used this as their cover to carry out their depraved acts. The Hierarchy were equally as culpable because they worried about the future of the church which they saw as being paramount and they made terrible decisions that yielded terrible consequences. 
We can learn from this and the church has to learn if it is to survive, but there is already a massive difference in society today than from that time. People don't fear the priest, they don't doff their hat and that is how it should be. Men and power can often lead to barbarism and that is what happened.


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## ney001 (27 May 2009)

I think Michael O'Brien on Primetime has summed up everything that needs to be said about the report, incredibly brave man, he managed to articulate the suffering of these kids in a few minutes.  Painful to listen to let alone live through.


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## Teatime (27 May 2009)

ney001 said:


> I think Michael O'Brien on Primetime has summed up everything that needs to be said about the report, incredibly brave man, he managed to articulate the suffering of these kids in a few minutes. Painful to listen to let alone live through.


 
He was on Newstalk this morning. He said he found out where one of his abusers was living in recent years (in a home I think) and went to confront him. He said he was going to give him a "good going-over, maybe even kill him". He went for him when he got there but did not violently because he was old and crippled and wasn't long for this life - he left knowing that this man would rot in hell.


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## dockingtrade (27 May 2009)

Teatime said:


> He was on Newstalk this morning. He said he found out where one of his abusers was living in recent years (in a home I think) and went to confront him.


 

as i said in a previous post. 
The nazi hunters have little to do these days, send them a new list!!!


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## Chocks away (27 May 2009)

This afternoon on George Hook you had Senator Jo O Toole and Fr Sean Healy (CORI). O Toole was superb on his input and did not deflect in any way. Fr Healy used reverse psychology, lots of mea culpas - repeated very often, was insistant on the fact that more has got to be done (how public opinion has swayed CORI in 72 hours), but apart from that said little new. Why has the vatican been so mute, arms folded demurely into suitane sleeves and looking on from the sideline. Even if lots of these orders were like little republics, should not Rome (as in the case of firms and sub contractors) be responsible ultimately. Let Rome pay the money and then get it back off those deified miscreants. Furthermore, anyone in the knights or opus dei should be taken off any investigative bodies.


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## ophelia (27 May 2009)

The treatment of 165,000+ children by these institutions was sordid and criminal.
I would also add that, unbelievably and unusually, there was one wonderful place of which I am aware.  My mother was motherless at four, she had two older sisters and a two year old sister - all of them were under 6. All of them were put in a convent boarding school. She and her sisters received nothing but kindness for the fourteen years she was there.  The nuns were the only mother they knew and they were nurtured in a firm but kind and loving way.  She never remembers getting even one smack. Thanks to them she got a good education and was taught how to cook, sew and manage her affairs.  The nuns nursed two of her sisters out of T.B. who would probably have died if they had been in a normal family at that time. They organised employment for the girls on finishing their leaving certificates and eventhough they were hard times she still talks about the nuns like they were her mother.  I realise they were extremely lucky but is it not strange that such good existed amonst such evil.


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## dockingtrade (28 May 2009)

could the victims take a class action against the organizations. In that there was a consiparcy of cover up of child abuse that they new about and allowed it happen?


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## redstar (28 May 2009)

ophelia said:


> I realise they were extremely lucky but is it not strange that such good existed amonst such evil.



I'm sure there are many good people in the 'religious orders'. Now its time for them to come forward and be counted and return their orders to their original ideals. They should speak out and reform their orders from top to bottom. They can root out the deviants from the inside. 
If not, these orders should disband.

I experienced both side of the Christian Brothers at secondary school. One, who was long past retirement age, would kick and punch boys with very little provocation. Another, much younger 'Brother',  would devote his religious class to debates and open discussions. I never saw him raise a hand to anyone.


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## Purple (28 May 2009)

I accept that there are many good people in religious orders. I suspect that they are the majority. I can even accept that many of them did not know what was going on, but now they do. Now there is no innuendo, no well meaning but naive denials, no inability to comprehend the magnitude of what was going on. Now all of those good people have a choice; they can either do nothing and accept that they are no better than the abusers or they can step away from them. 
Calm and measured words of condemnation are not enough, selling off properties is not enough, expelling members is not enough. If the good people are indeed good then they need to express rage, they need to shout out their anger and sense of betrayal, red faced and veins bulging. Then they need to leave their respective orders and work tirelessly to have those orders disbanded. The government should immediately remove the charitable status of any order that refuses and then seek to prosecute them using organised crime legislation. At a diocesan level any priest, bishop or cardinal for whom involvement is abuse or the cover-up or facilitation of abuse can be shown should face criminal charges. If they are in Rome or another country their extradition should be sought.     

Then there’s the state; they were just as much part of the problem as any religious order. The police ignored complaints, indeed along with the judicial, legal and medical professions, and lay-teaching staff, they covered up, ignored and facilitated the abuse. How can institutions that were part of the problem now investigate and stand in judgement over other institutions that were part of the problem?

We now stand in 2009 and judge events from the 50’s to the 70’s by the standards of our time and yet the harsh reality is that children in this country were beaten and dehumanised in schools and often in their homes ‘till quite recently and society at large didn’t just know about it, they didn’t just accept it  but they lauded those involved as strong and virtuous. “spare the rod and spoil the child”, “children should be seen and not heard” etc. It took affluence, the cashing off of the dominance of the Catholic Church and a broader world view to change such thinking and that has only happened in the last fifteen or so years. If you don’t believe me ask anyone over 50 how they were treated in school and how they and/or their friends were treated at home.

The “good old days” of domination, abuse and dehumanisation are gone; good riddance to them.


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## Caveat (29 May 2009)

Purple said:


> ...50’s to the 70’s by the standards of our time and yet the harsh reality is that children in this country were beaten and dehumanised in schools...


 
Well into the 80s too.  I'm not yet 40 and a contemporary of mine was lifted by the ears, punched in the face/stomach and had his hands stamped on - courtesy of some well known "brothers".

Good post Purple.


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## Bronte (29 May 2009)

Purple said:


> The “good old days” of domination, abuse and dehumanisation are gone; good riddance to them.


 
I'm not so sure of this.  We do not know what goes on today in old people's homes, psychiatric hospitals, disability homes, children's homes.  

What freedom do I have as an Irish citizen if I as a non Catholic wish to become a teacher in a school in Ireland, is it easy for me, can I become a principal, can I if I express a view that say I believe in a woman's right to chose abortion?

What as a parent are my rights in relation to sending my child to the only school in my area which does not cater for children who do not wish to participate in Catholic sacrements?

Can I become a consultant in one of the two top hospitals in Dublin if I express a view that I believe in sterilisation or stem cell research.  

If I am raped and go before a judge who is a member of Opius Dei will I be judged on the fact that I am a single mother or that I've slept with a few people or that I wore a mini skirt?

Do I have to keep my personal opinions to myself in certain situations because of the dominance of the Roman Catholic Church in all institutions of the state.


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## Sunny (29 May 2009)

Hell, I am only 33 and I got the last remnants of the Christian Brothers in the 90's and there were a couple of evil sadistic *******s there so can only imagine what they got away with in the past.


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## Purple (29 May 2009)

Sunny said:


> Hell, I am only 33 and I got the last remnants of the Christian Brothers in the 90's and there were a couple of evil sadistic *******s there so can only imagine what they got away with in the past.


I’m 36 and I remember being beaten to the ground and kicked in 4th class in primary school. The teacher involved was not a member of a religious order and was in his 20’s at the time. He is now the special needs teacher in the same school. I want to a Christian brothers secondary school but there were few brothers left and they were not violent.   
My point was that while there was still violence against children in the 80’s and 90’s it was far less socially acceptable by then.


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## Sunny (29 May 2009)

Purple said:


> I’m 36 and I remember being beaten to the ground and kicked in 4th class in primary school. The teacher involved was not a member of a religious order and was in his 20’s at the time. He is now the special needs teacher in the same school. I want to a Christian brothers secondary school but there were few brothers left and they were not violent.
> My point was that while there was still violence against children in the 80’s and 90’s it was far less socially acceptable by then.


 
Oh totally accept what you were saying. There were only 4 or 5 brothers left in my school and they were being eased out and you could see that things were changing. I remember going home with a bruise on my face form where I was hit across the face with a book for talking during class and my parents going absolute bannanas that someone had dared lift a finger to me. I can only try and imagine what it must have been like in the bad old days when nobody stood up to that type of behaviour and kids didn't have anyone to look out for them.


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## Purple (29 May 2009)

Sunny said:


> I can only try and imagine what it must have been like in the bad old days when nobody stood up to that type of behaviour and kids didn't have anyone to look out for them.


 and when they got home their parents hit them again for "giving the brother cheek" or so such thing.


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