# At what point is it not worthwhile to work fulltime & pay childcare?



## buzybee

Due back at work soon.  I will be paying nearly 1000 for two children aged nearly 1 and 3.   The childminder is very good so I don't mind paying her.

My question is:  at what point is it not worthwhile to work fulltime and pay childcare?  I am in a civil service job, earning 25K pa.  I take home 400 a week.  Childcare is 250, petrol and parking another 50.  (I bring my own lunch to work).   Therefore I should have about 100 euro for working the five days.  I would like to work 4 days because it might be easier to fit in housework and be less of a mad dash.  However, DH would prefer me to work the 5 days because kids are in a routine, and the extra 20 euro for the fifth day would pay towards petrol/parking.

I would just like to ask others: would you bother working the 5th day for such a small compensation?  or is it wasteful to leave the extra few euros after me when we are in a recession.

Tks again


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## Sandals

For us its a question of balance and the old trade off of what your priorities (opportunity cost) are?

In simple terms Iv a co-worker who pays a cleaner 3 hours a week which she feels is a waste of money as she's well able to clean her house/luxury etc but as she can make more doing 3 hours grinds, she has the cleaner come in when she has the grind so in some small way she can justify having a cleaner....


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## helenrent

I was earning 400 per week and to get two kids minded would have cost 300 so I gave up the job. We are all different with different views on this but my advice would be go with your gut - I am very happy with my decision but I know that minding two kids full time would drive some people to distraction. Perhaps you could take a few weeks parental leave and see how you feel after that. Good luck what ever you decide


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## Nutso

Will you get a reduction in childcare costs if your children are only there 4 days?  You will have a reduction in petrol & parking costs.
If you get a reduction in childcare costs, you may not be worse off financially.  If this is the case, I would go for it.


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## beaky

The kids will not always be in creche/playschool.  Time will come when they will not need such intensive minding as they will be in school etc.  You are however giving up a state job that many would kill for with a good pension that you are not likely to get again. Just another thought. I know its nice to be around the kids when they are young but think for your future and theirs.


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## niceoneted

What about job sharing?


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## ClubMan

buzybee said:


> I would like to work 4 days because it might be easier to fit in housework and be less of a mad dash.


Would _Parental Leave _taken as one day per week be an option here?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...itions/leave_and_holidays/parental_leave.html


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## Black Sheep

Are you sure that you would be happy staying at home all day every day with 2 young children, some would kill for the opportunity while others would run.

A friend was in a similar situation a few years ago, I managed to persuade to take the 14 weeks parental first but still went ahead and is still the stay at home parent 5 years on.

I was lucky enough to be part time with very flexible hours when my kids were very young but I needed that escape


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## buzybee

I never said anything about giving up my state job.  My question was about at what point would a person cut back on hours.   Eg. would a person do a full days work for 40 Euro?? for 20 Euro?? after childcare and travel costs.

I want to keep working some few days.   However, I questioned whether the five days is too much, with two young children, when I am only getting 20 Euro for the fifth day.  Also, the fifth day could make the working week very tiring, trying to fit in housework, shopping etc. (I am nearly 40 years old and I have gradually got more tired from full time working over the years).   I am thinking about whether I should forego the 20 Euro, stay at home and catch up on housework, to free up some time at weekends.  Of course employing a cleaning lady would be a laugh, as the cleaning lady would probably be getting more money than me.

If I continue to do the five days in work, I will have to spend each evening doing housework after kids are in bed, so I will have no free time to watch TV etc.  The four days would make the working routine more relaxed, and give me a bit more free time.

 I always worked full time, and I went back to work full time after my first child.  I worked full time through my second pregnancy.  I am quite nervous and a little guilty about leaving money after me when jobs are so scarce at the moment.


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## Maxie37

I would do the 4 day if I was you, if you can afford it.  If you just take parental leave for the day you are taking off and see how you get on then you can stop whenever you want and go back on the 5 day.  You will benefit greatly from the extra day at home in my opinion. If you are thinking about doing a 4 day that doesn't involve parental leave just keep in mind that in the current climate and for the foreseable future you would be unlikely to get the 5 day week back if you needed it.  I wish I was in your position I would do the 4 day in a flash!  I work full time with two kids and find it much harder than when there was only the one.  It also get harder when they get to school age in my opinion.  Go for it, you won't regret it!


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## ClubMan

buzybee said:


> when I am only getting 20 Euro for the fifth day.


Are you sure that that's the full story? Are there not other benefits accruing - e.g. pension/superannuation, holidays, _PRSI _contributions etc. that should be factored in? Employment is not always just about the money you get into your hand at the end of the day/week/month.


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## dereko1969

buzybee said:


> I never said anything about giving up my state job. My question was about at what point would a person cut back on hours. Eg. would a person do a full days work for 40 Euro?? for 20 Euro?? after childcare and travel costs.
> 
> I want to keep working some few days. However, I questioned whether the five days is too much, with two young children, when I am only getting 20 Euro for the fifth day. Also, the fifth day could make the working week very tiring, trying to fit in housework, shopping etc. (I am nearly 40 years old and I have gradually got more tired from full time working over the years). I am thinking about whether I should forego the 20 Euro, stay at home and catch up on housework, to free up some time at weekends. Of course employing a cleaning lady would be a laugh, as the cleaning lady would probably be getting more money than me.
> 
> *If I continue to do the five days in work, I will have to spend each evening doing housework after kids are in bed, so I will have no free time to watch TV etc. The four days would make the working routine more relaxed, and give me a bit more free time.*
> 
> I always worked full time, and I went back to work full time after my first child. I worked full time through my second pregnancy. I am quite nervous and a little guilty about leaving money after me when jobs are so scarce at the moment.


 
Can your husband not help with that?


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## buzybee

My husband already does the morning drop off at minders.  I get baby up and fed, and he gets toddler up.  He also arrives home before me and gets started on the dinner in the evening.  He does all outside work e.g. cutting lawns, sweeping leaves etc.  Each evening I might do washing/ironing, wash a floor, hoover or tidy.  The aim is to keep the house fairly clean so I don't spend hours on housework at weekends.

Regarding the pension entitlements, hols etc:  I joined Civil Service 5 years ago, at 35.  Even if I work full time to 65, I will only have 30 yrs service.  The Clerical Officer is paid 35K at the highest point on the scale.  I calculated that I would only get a little more than the state contributory pension even if I work full time for the next 25 years.  I would be entitled to the state contributory pension anyway, as I have already been working full time for over 20 years.  If I spend 10 years working at the 4 day week, it would be the equivalent of 8 years of full time service, so I am not losing much by doing the 4 days.

Regarding hols, I would still get the 20 days hols if I use parental leave.  I would be allowed work up just over a day flexi a month.  I can work up 1.5 days flexi a month with the full time work.

Regarding going on a 4 day week and not ever being allowed back on the 5 days:  I would be 52 yrs old when the parental leave would cease.  By the time the kids would be able for a job, and need less minding I would be 58.  I would hope not to go back on 5 days at 58.

Also DH is a few years older than me and is in a state job with 40K.  He could be retired when I am 58 and I may find working the 5 days impractical if he is at home fulltime.

It is just that I want to try and continue working a good few days as long as I can, because I know that if I get the taste of a 4 or 4.5 day week, I may not want to ever to the 5 days again.


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## ClubMan

buzybee said:


> Regarding the pension entitlements, hols etc:  I joined Civil Service 5 years ago, at 35.  Even if I work full time to 65, I will only have 30 yrs service.


I'm not really au fait with _Civil/Public Service _pensions but is there an option to buy back service or something like that?

http://www.cspensions.gov.ie/



> The Clerical Officer is paid 35K at the highest point on the scale.


Would you not be looking towards promotion above _CO _as part of your career plan?

If your analysis is correct and you are ultimately working the 5th day for a return of €20 and have some option for not working this instead then that simplifies the question a lot and nobody else can really answer it for you.


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## Siobhan1

I think your parental leave would be used up a lot sooner than you think. How do you work out that it will last you til your 52?  Its my understanding that you get something like 72 parental leave days per child - is that not the case?


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## buzybee

I have two children, nearly 1 and 3.  The parental leave is a maximum of 14 weeks per child per year.  The parental leave finishes when children are 12 or 13.  So as long as I stay inside the 14 weeks per year, I could continue to take parental leave until children are 12 or 13.  I would only be taking one day a week, which would use up 10 weeks of parental leave a year.  I may even work full time for part of the year, which would mean that I would be taking even less than 10 weeks parental leave a year.

I know of others at work who have 2 children and are able to use the parental leave to work a 3 day week all the time.  In effect they are working part time, but when children are over the 12 or 13, they can revert to full time if they want.


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## Mrs Vimes

It's 14 weeks in total, not per year.


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## ClubMan

buzybee said:


> I have two children, nearly 1 and 3.  The parental leave is a maximum of 14 weeks per child per year.  The parental leave finishes when children are 12 or 13.


Are you referring to something other than the statutory _Parental Leave _scheme because that only allows for leave until the child is 8 years old unless there are certain extenuating circumstances and the TOTAL amount of leave is 14 weeks per child.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...itions/leave_and_holidays/parental_leave.html


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## Carmel

*4 day versus 5 day week*

Hi Busybee
I am in a similar situation to you family wise. I have a one year old and a 3 year old. I am working a four-day week and find it makes a huge difference to the quality of life for the whole family. On a weekly basis, it means that we have more time to do nice things at the weekend, without being under too much pressure to do things like the grocery shopping. It also means that you have an extra day to do jobs that crop up like getting the car serviced, banking etc. So your 'day off' isn't a day off, but it makes the weekend more pleasant for everyone. I think it is also good for the kids having an extra day in the week at home.

Its not a financial decision for us, but on the quality of life side, I would say that it makes a big difference. I think myself that a 3-day week would be ideal, but that's not available to me at the moment


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## annR

My so called family and work life balance friendly multinational employer has refused to allow me to take 1 day a week parental leave (must be in a block) and no part time allowed either.  There must be thousands of women in the same situation.  Where are these flexi jobs?  How do I find them?  Wouldn't it be great if there was some kind of network to help women with families find more family friendly jobs or at least position ourselves in a company where the jobs exist with a few to getting them in a few years.  I've been in sales for 10 years surely that's of enough value to someone to let me have a day off during the week, as you say not to really a day off but just to catch up . . .


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## ClubMan

annR said:


> There must be thousands of women in the same situation.
> 
> ...
> 
> Wouldn't it be great if there was  some kind of network to help women with families find more family  friendly jobs



Er - it's not just women who are affected by work/life balance, child care/rearing, _Parental Leave _issues etc. :-|


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## annR

I know and I thought of it while I was writing that . . .however I think the numbers of women in this situation would be more.  It doesn't make any difference.  There should be some way of finding these positions to be able to plan for the future.


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## ClubMan

There seem to be quite a few statutory - e.g.:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/

and discretionary schemes/policies/research - e.g.:

[broken link removed]
http://www.ibec.ie/IBEC/ES.nsf/vPag...angements~work-life-balance-2011?OpenDocument

out there that should at least help. Many of us find this whole area a challenge in our lives.


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## Vanilla

I work a 4 day week, currently- I find it fantastic. The working week flies- like a lot of jobs, I end up doing the same work in less time but I love being very busy. I think my work has improved, I am more focused, have more energy. A day off a week gives me time to reboot, reflect and often I come up with ideas on my day off that I'm not sure otherwise I would have.

I'm not sure that with a 1 year old and a 3 year old you'd get much done on your day off if they are not with the childminder though! But mine are at school now so I get a morning to myself, once a week when I get loads done. Laundry, cooking, cleaning, hair dressers, I did the couch to 5k running programme which I otherwise would not have done, gym, doctors appts, I do some writing, sorting out the bills, things I would otherwise find it hard to fit into the week. It also means weekends are less frantic and the whole family is more relaxed. 

I'd highly recommend it on a personal front. The only drawback is that if you work a 4 day week I assume your holidays will also be cut- so bear this in mind before you make the decision.


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## ClubMan

Vanilla said:


> The only drawback is that if you work a 4 day week I assume your holidays will also be cut- so bear this in mind before you make the decision.


Not under the _Parental Leave _scheme anyway. I'm currently weighing up possibility and the pros and cons of taking one day a week _Parental Leave _plus some more for school holidays.


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## Vanilla

Oh yes, I just work a four day week- it's not under a parental leave scheme.


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## roker

This is modern living, when my kids were young mothers did not go to work, it’s a pity that both parents need to go to work to make ends meet. You could do away with a lot of materialism, ie that big TV, Xbox, Ipads, smart phones etc. new car, and give the kids the attention they need.


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## Mrmr

roker said:


> This is modern living, when my kids were young mothers did not go to work, it’s a pity that both parents need to go to work to make ends meet. You could do away with a lot of materialism, ie that big TV, Xbox, Ipads, smart phones etc. new car, and give the kids the attention they need.



Even if you get rid of all luxuries, sometimes the mortgage takes two wages. That is the era we've just lived through.


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## Vanilla

roker said:


> This is modern living, when my kids were young mothers did not go to work, it’s a pity that both parents need to go to work to make ends meet. You could do away with a lot of materialism, ie that big TV, Xbox, Ipads, smart phones etc. new car, and give the kids the attention they need.


 

Jaysus.

Judgmental, much?


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## buzybee

Unfortunately my earnings just pays for the shopping.  We have one television.  We have two cars, one is 7 yrs old, one is 11 yrs old.  We haven't had a holiday since having children.  I know the childcare eats up most of my salary.  I have a government job, pays 26K gross. I am afraid that if I give up this, I may not get another job.  I take home 400 euro a week.  After childcare, petrol and parking, I have just over 100 euro a week.  

Childrens allowance goes on clothes and if we need a doctor.

I wonder what would happen if I did not work.  How would we get money to pay for groceries???  Perhaps Roker would like to reply and tell me this....


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## mts

If you reduce your hours to a 4 day week your salary will be reduced by approx. 1/5 so you would be down €80 per week rather than €20.


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## Pyrite-home

If I were you I would definitely take the 4 day week. I know 20 euro a week is a lot with your current expenses but if you can afford it, it would be well worth it. I am in a similar situation and I find it very stressful just because I know the kids won't be babies forever and would really enjoy being at home with them more. So go for it, I would say, once you can pay the main bills, the rest will work itself out. You wont be able to get the time back but you will be able to get the money back in the furture.


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## roker

Buzzybee. I managed, do you smoke and drink a lot?


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## Nutso

mts, you are not taking into consideration that the OP will have reduced childcare costs, reduced travel costs and will pay less tax so her take home pay won't reduce by €80.00....


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## buzybee

Roker, I don't smoke at all.  I don't really drink.  I would have one glass of wine on special occasions.  We don't go out socialising since having children.  My mother and sister would bring me to an early bird dinner for my birthday.

I have exzema and a touch of asthma.   I need to use special creams for the exzema and have a bath every two days. These creams are prescription only so I need to go to a doctor to get them.  The creams come in small tubes and the doctor will only prescribe one or two so I have to go to him and show him my rash, in order to get the creams.   This costs 55 Euro per go, and another 30 euro for the creams. I have an allergy to wheat and I am sensitive to sugar and dairy.  I need to eat a really healthy diet for my skin, lots of fruit and veg, no sweet things, no processed foods.  This sometimes can cost more than having convenience foods.  I take fish oils and supplements for my skin.  I try to look out for offers on these.

When I am stressed my skin gets aggravated. Work can be stressful as there are less staff.  Also getting toddlers to childminder in the mornings and packing all my food for the day can be stressful. I found that when I was on maternity leave I didn't have to take half the supplements and didn't have to use as many creams on my skin.

Regarding clothes shopping, I can only wear cotton, as a lot of fabrics aggavate my skin.  I usually travel to M&S twice a year to get reasonably priced clothes which look respectable for work and won't aggravate my skin.

In fact my hair is beginning to go grey and highlighting costs a fortune.  I will probably just leave it go grey.  I can't colour as my scalp has some exzema.  It is not nice to just let hair go grey at 40 as everyone else is able to keep their hair coloured/highlighted.

Happy now, ?  Roker


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## roker

Sorry to hear of your problems, obviously my comments do not apply to you, I hope that you find a way out.


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## michaelm

buzybee said:


> These creams are prescription only so I need to go to a doctor to get them.


Have you checked whether your family qualify for GP Visit cards and Family Income Supplement?





buzybee said:


> I questioned whether the five days is too much, with two young children,  when I am only getting 20 Euro for the fifth day.  Also, the fifth day  could make the working week very tiring, trying to fit in housework,  shopping etc.


If it were me then I would do it if it was financially doable.

Although (and I know you didn't ask this), if it were me I'd crunch the numbers to see if staying at home was doable as you are working for a small net financial gain.  From the numbers you provide I'm thinking that you use your own tax credits.  If that is so and if you were to give up work (or take a career break to try it) and transfer your credits to your husband, his take home would increase by about €50 per week . . so you'd have to find about €50 in weekly savings (or do some child minding yourself) to bridge the gap.


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## sside_mum

I am in a similar situation.  Trying to figure out whats the best way to go. 

I have 1 toddler and 1 baby on the way.  I also have another school going child.

My maternity leave will finish end of August and am not sure if going back to work is worth it. 

I have checked creche prices approx 1100 for the baby + 1100  for the toddler and another 500 for the afterschool care.  In total 2700 and my take home pay is only 2450  ! Ofcourse its a no brainer to leave work but like so many others, I do not want to leave a reasonably well paid job in current climate.  1 creche fee will half in couple of years time when the toddler will be in school plus I think it will be reduced by little more even before when the toddler qualifies for ECCE scheme.  

I am looking for some options/ideas as to what might be best way to do this. 

I want kids to be minded in a "group" and I do not want an "au pair" or "nanny at home" situation.  
Ideally I would like the kids to be minded in the same place but its hard to find a small playgroup who can mind the baby, the toddler and also do collections for after school pick-ups Mon-Fri .  Any suggestions ?


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## annR

In the creche I use, the toddler is cheaper than the baby, also you should get a sibling discount.  Small change however in the scheme of things.  Would you consider a childminder situation for the older child to pick them up from school and mind them in their/your home?  Although I've no experience of after school care, I don't really like the idea.  I think money spent in the creche is better value for full time care where they take responsiblity for over all care, whereas after school care is really just supervising them doing their homework.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  For that reason I hope to have a childminder collect my child from school and take her home and mind her.


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## sside_mum

Yes I agree...afterschool is just supervision and my child atleast 3 activities a week which means he is in school until 3:30 for 3 afternoons and I should get home from work around 5pm leaving only approximately 1:30 hours for minding but the crrche is insisting on charging the full amount for the afternoon ...it seems unfair but I suppose they are running a business!   Perhaps I should re-consider my options and think of dropping them to a minders house. Probably still expensive. Need to research this option too


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## ClubMan

roker said:


> Buzzybee. I managed, do you smoke and drink a lot?


Jaysus again!


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## annR

SSide_mum

My creche is charging me around 1700 for a baby + toddler and it is a top of the range creche, I think your creche is charging you too much.  My take home pay is about the same as yours.

if you tot it up if you were paying someone E10 per hour to mind your child after school it's a bit cheaper per month.  Pity we don't all have grannies around to help eh.


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