# Bank harrassing debtor - Intrum Justitia



## Moral Ethos (28 Jan 2008)

Posting this on behalf of a friend who rang me this morning in tears. 

He owes BOI about €9k for a loan he defaulted on a few years ago. He fully accepts he is liable etc. BOI took legal action and obtained a judgement for the full amount and then obtained an installment order based on his income at the time. My friend lost his job and as a result could not meet the installments. He then went to the district court to have the installment order varied. The judge reduced the order to nil.

Now it seems the bank is now very sore over this and has now passed the entire debt over to a collection agency who are threatening legal action and that they will send people round to discuss the situation. Naturally he is beside himself with fear.

Now, as the matter is before the courts, is the bank acting unreasonably by involving heavies because the installment order was varied in the debtors favour? 

Any useful advice would be appreciated.

Thanks
ME


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## ClubMan (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Did he have legal representation in court on this matter? If so surely his solicitor should be advising here too? Has he contacted MABS?

I'm no legal expert but while the court may have changed the repayment order to nil does this not still leave the original debt about (or the balance plus accrued interest) outstanding so the bank may well be within their rights to pass it onto a debt collection agency who will take whatever steps they can to collect?


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## Moral Ethos (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

He prepared his own application then served it on the bank and presented it to the judge.

The whole reason he varied the order was to prevent the situation as described. Naturally getting the order reduced does not wipe the debt but it prevents the bank from putting my friend in prison.


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## ClubMan (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

In this situation prison is not an issue for having the debt. It may be an issue for being in contempt of court (e.g. failing to abide by a court order etc.). I still can't see that the bank are necessarily out of order here. But I'm not a solicitor.


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## davidoco (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



Moral Ethos said:


> Naturally he is beside himself with fear.


 
Tell him not to worry. Should he have further contact from the collection agency he should contact the financial regulator. http://www.ifsra.ie/ The conduct of a bank (in relation to debt recovery) is not covered in the consumer protection code but the bank itself (BOI) may have a published code. 

His debt is before the Court, the debt is owed a confirmed by the original court court. 

Among the various methods of collection open to the bank was the instalment order. The order was made, then varied by debtor, the only other way that the bank can collect is by seeking to vary the order again or seeking prison for default on the instalment (which is impossible as it is a nil instalment).

The agency can come around and break his legs (illegally but I've seen it working in movies), but they can’t take any of his personal goods, they can’t make him work off the debt washing dishes in Baggot Street and the door can certainly be shut in their face.


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## shootingstar (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



ClubMan said:


> I'm not legal expert but while the court may have changed the repayment order to nil does this not still leave the original debt about (or the balance plus accrued interest) outstanding so the bank may well be within their rights to pass it onto a debt collection agency who will take whatever steps they can to collect?



When you say "whatever steps they can"... they cant really get heavy handed can they? Surely they can only call to the door to discuss the matter and then issue court/legal proceedings?


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## Thrifty (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Given the situation i would advise your friend to contact the police or at least threaten to when he next hears from this collection agency. Their behaviour is harassment. Certainly go through the financial regulator also.


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## ClubMan (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



shootingstar said:


> When you say "whatever steps they can"... they cant really get heavy handed can they? Surely they can only call to the door to discuss the matter and then issue court/legal proceedings?



I wasn't talking about illegal actions. I was referring to the possibility that perhaps they can impound other goods/assets in lieu of the debt repayment? Not sure if this is possible or if, for example, only a court can order this or a sheriff enforce it. Obviously all debt collection agencies are legitimate and operate within the law. Speaking of which I see that recent shooting victim _Martin "The Viper" Foley _had his own debt collection agency...


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## Moral Ethos (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

They have already issued the court proceedings some 2 years ago.



> Obviously all debt collection agencies are legitimate and operate within the law.


That is a very naive view.


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## bond-007 (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



ClubMan said:


> I wasn't talking about illegal actions. I was referring to the possibility that perhaps they can impound other goods/assets in lieu of the debt repayment? Not sure if this is possible or if, for example, only a court can order this or a sheriff enforce it.


They would have already done that before seeking the instalment order. They cannot comeback now and look again. They only get one shot.



> Obviously all debt collection agencies are legitimate and operate within the law.


Interesting.


> Speaking of which I see that recent shooting victim _Martin "The Viper" Foley _had his own debt collection agency...


Enough said.


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## ClubMan (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



Moral Ethos said:


> That is a very naive view.


I was being sarcastic.


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## bond-007 (28 Jan 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

thought so


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## dewdrop (5 Mar 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

unless the bank succeeds in getting  the nil instalment order varied is the collection agency acting for the bank in contempt of court in looking for money which the court said was not payable at prresent.


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## Bronte (5 Mar 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

I'm a bit lost on this one. The court gave a nil installment order as he has such a low income so he has to pay nothing at the moment. But the debt still exists and presumably is increasing with interest. Shouldn't the bank go back to court to change the installment order? And is it illegal for a bank to pass a debt to a debt collection agency when it's in the hands of the court. Debt collections agencies threaten (phone calls/letters/heavies) but cannot really do anything such as seize goods or physically intimidate you (but some dubious one's do). Is that where we are at?


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## csirl (5 Mar 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

What were the terms of the varied installment order? Was it reduced to nil full stop or was it reduced to nil until such time as your friend found a job? Does your friend now have an income that would allow him to start repaying the debt?


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## Moral Ethos (5 Mar 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

It was reduced to nil until such time the bank makes a fresh application to vary it again. The judge said they would have to wait 12 months to do so. An no my friend is still out of work and attending a medical professional.



> Shouldn't the bank go back to court to change the installment order?


They can in 9 months time.


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## Slim (6 Mar 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



Moral Ethos said:


> Now it seems the bank is now very sore over this and has now passed the entire debt over to a collection agency who are threatening legal action and that they will send people round to discuss the situation.


 
How does your friend know this? Did someone in the bank ring him or did the agency write to him? Could someone in the bank be bluffing him? If he has correspondence from the bank/debt agency, he should copy that and submit it to the court office, first making sure he copies his correspondence to the bank. They will soon lay off.

Note to Clubman - I found the 'Quote button - Thanks!

Slim


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## Moral Ethos (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Intrum wrote again to my friend today. They will be sending some hired goons around to "talk" about the matter.

As far as they are concerned there is no judgement and they basically don't care. BOI have dumped the matter in their hands and that's all they know or care about it. 

Is there anything that can be done?


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## ClubMan (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Don't open the door?


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## eileen alana (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



Moral Ethos said:


> Intrum wrote again to my friend today. They will be sending some hired goons around to "talk" about the matter.
> 
> 
> Is there anything that can be done?


 

Let the police know, surely there is a better way of dealing with it, how awfully scary


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## davidoco (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



Moral Ethos said:


> Intrum wrote again to my friend today. They will be sending some hired goons around to "talk" about the matter.
> 
> As far as they are concerned there is no judgement and they basically don't care. BOI have dumped the matter in their hands and that's all they know or care about it.
> 
> Is there anything that can be done?


 
Let me come, get their business cards/names and inform them by handing them a prepared letter that you will be attending the local Gardai station seeking action under the following law.  Will you just be sure that the instalment order for nil is actually in force.

Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997 Demands for payment of debt causing alarm, etc.   
*11.*—(1) A person who makes any demand for payment of a debt shall be guilty of an offence if—
[GA]                  ( _a_ ) the demands by reason of their frequency are calculated to subject the debtor or a member of the family of the debtor to alarm, distress or humiliation, or
[GA]                  ( _b_ ) the person falsely represents that criminal proceedings lie for non-payment of the debt, or
[GA]                  ( _c_ ) the person falsely represents that he or she is authorised in some official capacity to enforce payment, or
[GA]                  ( _d_ ) the person utters a document falsely represented to have an official character.
[GA]                (2) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500.


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## mercman (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

A debt can be sold to a collection agency, which is quite common. The friend is going to find it very difficut to move forward unless he takes measures and makes an effort to repay the Bank. There is an admission that the Bank are owed the money -- where's the problem in making an arrangement even if it is only €20 per week. What happens if PIs have been taking photos of his lifestyle and that it could be shown that he was living comfortably.


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## bond-007 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

You should read the thread fully. 

He is under no obligation to pay them whilst he has a court order against them. And I seriously doubt PIs are involved. If they have such evidence they should be going back to court to have the order varied.


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## mercman (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

I am not disputing that for one moment. However if the person concerned wishes to move anyway forward financially,whether it be for a Credit Card, Car Loan, Mortgage etc., in my opinion he would be better meeting with them face to face  to try and resolve the situation. A judgement against a person is punative and leaving matters to late to deal with will make the original amount with interest far in excess than one could imagine. The debt collectors that have the matter now are well versed (UK based company) with these kind of things.


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## bond-007 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

The thing is that UK debt collectors are often very ignorant of Irish Laws. What may fly in the UK eg doorstepping and other forms of harassment  etc will not fly here. 

The judgement will expire in 12 years from the judgement. After that date the bank will be unable to collect or enforce the debt. Now that will outrage the moral majority but that is the law. The OP's friend has used the legal system to obtain relief from his creditors which seems to have disgusted certain posters. 

What is the point of telling him to make arrangements to pay when he can't and a judge has agreed with the situation?


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## Moral Ethos (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Thanks folks.

Yes the order is still at nil and is still in force. I have talked further with my friend and told him to call the Garda_í_ if anyone shows to to break his legs. He is seriously ill at the moment and is in no way living it up. He cannot make any arangement with these people as he is living on welfare. It is unlikely he will be able to look for work for at least a year.


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## bond-007 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

I am sorry to hear that Moral. I hope is feeling better soon. Tell him not to worry. 
An after thought, if the BOI got a judgement they cannot sell it to anyone else without the permission of a judge.


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## mf1 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



bond-007 said:


> The thing is that UK debt collectors are often very ignorant of Irish Laws. What may fly in the UK eg doorstepping and other forms of harassment  etc will not fly here.
> 
> The judgement will expire in 12 years from the judgement. After that date the bank will be unable to collect or enforce the debt. Now that will outrage the moral majority but that is the law. The OP's friend has used the legal system to obtain relief from his creditors which seems to have disgusted certain posters.
> 
> What is the point of telling him to make arrangements to pay when he can't and a judge has agreed with the situation?




I think what may not be common knowledge is that the instalment order does not in any way freeze the debt or deny a creditor an opportunity to enforce the debt in another way, simultanaeously.  Instalment  Orders are only one arm of the potential recovery processes available to Creditors. So you have, in addition to instalment orders,  registration, registration as a judgment mortgage ( if there is property that can be attached), bankruptcy etc.,etc. These are all in addition to  the instalment order process. 

In no way do I condone heavy handed debt collection procedures - however, I know of cases where debtors have ignored debts while being in a position to finance their repayment in other ways - loans from friends and relatives for example. 

The nil instalment  order is not the end of it. 

mf


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## mf1 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



bond-007 said:


> An after thought, if the BOI got a judgement they cannot sell it to anyone else without the permission of a judge.




I don't think that is true. I think a judgment is assignable. 

mf


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## bond-007 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Would the debtor need to be told that the judgement has been assigned?


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## mf1 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



bond-007 said:


> Would the debtor need to be told that the judgement has been assigned?



Before parting with any cash, yes. How else would they know it wasn't a rip off!!!!

mf


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## mercman (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

There are many aencies operating in this country at present which have purchased books of debts from Credit Card cos, Banks, Retailers,  Car Finance Cos  etc.etc. And yes they are busy and they do collect debts. If a person is ill and can show it, this would be taken on board for due consideration.


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## bond-007 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



> If a person is ill and can show it, this would be taken on board for due consideration.


So a court ruling in favour of a debtor is no good now? So basically you think it ok for a company to ignore a court order directing a debtor to pay nothing.


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## ClubMan (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



Moral Ethos said:


> Intrum wrote again to my friend today.





bond-007 said:


> The thing is that UK debt collectors are often very ignorant of Irish Laws.


_Instrum _presumably means _Instrum Justitia *Ireland*_? Where did "UK debt collectors" come from?


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## John Rambo (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



ClubMan said:


> _Instrum _presumably means _Instrum Justitia *Ireland*_? Where did &quot;UK debt collectors&quot; come from?


 
Instrum are a respectable company so all this talk of 'goons' and 'breaking legs' is a little misleading. To be fair, BOI are hardly going to be passing the debt onto the Provos. I did see a debt collectors card once though and it had 'Security, Debt-Collection and Attitude Adjustment' as the services provided!


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## bond-007 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

I would not like to meet such a person.


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## mercman (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Clubman - they are a large debt collection agency in the UK and have an Irish offshoot now.


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## ClubMan (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



John Rambo said:


> To be fair, BOI are hardly going to be passing the debt onto the Provos.


Yeah - it's not like they're Bank of Scotland (Ireland) or anything!


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## ClubMan (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



mercman said:


> Clubman - they are a large debt collection agency in the UK and have an Irish offshoot now.


Who are presumably well versed in _Irish _law as it applies to their area of expertise?


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## bond-007 (28 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

In general UK debt collectors operating in Ireland can be surprisingly not that well up on Irish laws. Those using UK based operatives tend to be the worst for this.


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## RossieGooner (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

hi all - newbie here but was reading this thread and felt i just had to reply.

*MORAL - TELL YOUR BUDDY TO PLEASE, PLEASE STOP WORRYING ABOUT THIS!!!!!*

I will tell you my own experiences. A few years ago i was in similar situation to your mates - business went belly up and had judgements, etc. Also had the so-called debt "collection" agencies writing to me regularly, threatening all sorts. The amount of stress this type of correspondence caused was huge, but then again i know now that it is designed to do exactly that and to provoke a reponse from the debtor. The letters eventually stopped - no one ever came to me door. Couple of the agencies rang me(ONCE), but when they were told that I couldnt give them what i didnt have they usually not interested - read on and i'll tell you why they not interested.

In the last couple of years, i worked as sales person for 2 of these collection agencies. The 2 companies i worked for - and i have no reason to assume other companies are any different - do little or nothing to collect money, apart from sending out automated letters threatening this or that. *No one will call to the door*, and they cant bring your friend to court as this route has been exhausted by the bank. A collcetion agency will make its money in 2 ways - either by charging upfront fees to collect, or getting paid a percentage of the debt they collect. When they find u have nothing, they not interested because there is nothing in it for them.

I would advise your friend to go to his solicitor and sue the This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language off that bank for harrassment. The matter has been dealt with along the correct legal channels and in my opinion the bank are way out of line on this one. If solicitor cant to anything then ring Joe Duffy.....

Moral - please PM me if you wish and i will give you my number to let your friend call me. I am fully aware of how terrible things may seem to him, but there is really nothing to worry about. Its terrible that a bank can be allowed to put someone through this.


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## mercman (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Roosie - that's brilliant !! Are you saying so that we should all stop repaying our Loans to the Banks. I don't think it works like that -- I wish it did. About 15 years ago I was diagnosed with MS ad was out of action for a period of about six months. My Bank idn't give a damn and whilst I assured them that matters would be sorted out, they kept writing and charging interest. Obviously debts are different now !!


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## Bronte (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

But it has nothing to do with the bank now?  The bank have 'sold' the debt to a company called Instrum, which is apparently legitimate, even though there is a nil instalment order from the court.  Instrum now own the debt and the debt is increasing all the time.  Instrum can also whack on fees for the collection of the debt. If that is where the debtor is at, couldn't he try and pay say 5 Euro a week to them and agree that the debt doesn't increase.  I realise he's in a bad situation, but not dealing with it doesn't make it go away. I assume the bank sold the debt as the debtor must have no assets on which to put a judgement mortgage.


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## mercman (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Bronte, this is exactly the point I was trying to make. By ignoring the situation only makes matters worse. If the person concerned, sits down and discusses and comes to some type of arrangement (no matter how small) will pay dividends in the long term.


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## MrMan (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



> Are you saying so that we should all stop repaying our Loans to the Banks



I don't think thats what was suggested, but in extreme cases like this where the loan is small, a judge agrees that the person cannot service the loan, that same person cannot physically work for the next year or so then I have no problem with the bank taking a very small hit on this. Its not all rosie for the guy defaulting because this may be the last loan he gets, I can't imagine it will be easy to get back on his feet if he cant afford to pay a loan for €9,000 now.


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## RossieGooner (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Mercman - I am not for one moment suggesting that we all neglect our responsibilities in relation to our debts, but i was directly addressing the issue of this person getting into a state as a result of correspondence being received from this collection agency.

The matter has already been down the legal route and he has a nil installment status on the loan - it will remain so until the bank applies to the courts for a review of same. The collection agency should not have been used to contact this person - my point was that having worked for 2 of these type of companies, i know exactly how they work and what makes them tick.


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## bond-007 (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

I agree 100% with you. The bank should take the hit on this, I bet it is already written off as a bad debt that will never be collected.


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## Berlin (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*



Moral Ethos said:


> Intrum wrote again to my friend today. They will be sending some hired goons around to "talk" about the matter.
> 
> As far as they are concerned there is no judgement and they basically don't care. BOI have dumped the matter in their hands and that's all they know or care about it.
> 
> Is there anything that can be done?



I think you'll find that Intrum is a reputable debt collection agency. It's unlikely they'll be using hired goons.


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## Bronte (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

The bank seems to be out of the picture now, so everyone who says the bank should take the hit, well it's too late as it seems it belongs to Intrum. Intrum being a fully legal debt collection agency will do everything to be paid but that doesn't mean they will be able to physically threaten someone. Can the OP get someone to call into Intrum and try to come to a settlement or explain that the OP is on welfare and is unable to pay and try and persuade them to forget the debt. I'm sure they are open to negotiation, ignoring it is the worst thing to do. 

Mercman, my post crossed with yours.


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## Luckycharm (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

It is Intrum and they are one of the biggest Debto collections companys in the country, the other main one who do door to door in Cash flow services. Just get your solicitor to contact them or MABS and you should be oK. There are other routes to chase the debt as mentioned below such as  a Judgement on a mortgage!


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## bond-007 (29 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

They have already exhausted those avenues.


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## nlgbbbblth (30 May 2008)

*Re: Bank harrassing debtor*

Re: The UK and the knowledge of Irish law.

My experience shows that many employees of UK banks, insurance companies, debt collectors, etc lack basic knowledge about Ireland, its history and its geography let alone something relatively complex like Irish law.


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