# Paid deposit @ auction for apt. Solr cant certify the title, required for the bank!



## Gottogo

Recently paid my deposit at an auction for an apartment - in the meantime my solictor has indicated that he can not certify the title, required for the bank loan.

He is of course being smug (probably rightly so) and indicating that I should not have signed up for anything without a solicitor previously viewing the docs  and not willing to provide much advice on what will happen next.

Does anybody have experience of a similar situation ? I know I am probably screwed, but 

Is there anyway I can get the deposit back ?

Is it likely they will chase me for closure on the full amount if I can't get the bank mortgage ?

Thanks for any help.


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## Brendan Burgess

> Recently paid my deposit at an auction for an apartment - in the  meantime my solictor has indicated that he can not certify the title,  required for the bank loan.
> 
> He is of course being smug (probably rightly so) and indicating that I  should not have signed up for anything without a solicitor previously  viewing the docs  and not willing to provide much advice on what will  happen next.
> 
> Does anybody have experience of a similar situation ? I know I am probably screwed, but
> 
> Is there anyway I can get the deposit back ?
> 
> Is it likely they will chase me for closure on the full amount if I can't get the bank mortgage ?




There is nothing smug about this. It is highlighted time and again that one should get a solicitor to check the title and one should get a surveyor to check the property. Some people sell property with problems at auction in the hope that someone will buy without checking beforehand.

Change your solicitor, which is what you appear to be doing.  but don't expect some other solicitor can wave a magic wand for you.

If the title is bad, it may be that your solicitor cannot do anything. 

Have you a home which you could sell to release the cash to buy the apartment?


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## belview

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Try not to panic. Presumably the apartment you paid a deposit on is one of a  number of apartments within a larger development. Is the problem with the title deed just related to your apartment only.

It is hard to offer any specific advise without knowing the actual location and development involved. I am sure if you share this information people who have bought there previously will be able to help put your mind at rest. Most of the apartment complexes in Dublin have their own sites on NEIGHBOURS.IE


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## Gottogo

I bought one of the Dublin apts at the recent Allsop auction - the problem appears to be with the title of the overall development. The information provided by the Vendor does not allow my solicitor to issue a certification of title to the bank and the agreement I signed on "auction day" apparently forgoes any right I have to request additional information. 

I guess what I am really asking is do I have any rights when it comes to a property purchased at an auction. Rights in the sense that I can step back from the sale, due to the lack of documentation - I am willing to forgo the deposit ?


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## Gottogo

Brendan Burgess said:


> There is nothing smug about this. It is highlighted time and again that one should get a solicitor to check the title and one should get a surveyor to check the property. Some people sell property with problems at auction in the hope that someone will buy without checking beforehand.


 
I know - hindsight is always damming.
It’s not that I didn't check, I obviously stupidly assumed that any property offered in such a high profile auction would have been kosher.




Brendan Burgess said:


> Have you a home which you could sell to release the cash to buy the apartment?


 
I do, but this may be throwing more good money after bad.


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## Brendan Burgess

Gottogo said:


> I know - hindsight is always damming.
> 
> .



Hi Gottogo 

This has nothing at all to do with hindsight. When these auctions were announced, I did a Key Post on How to Buy a house at auctiion. I am sorry, but it's plain common sense and you may now be in a serious position.


> It’s not that I didn't check, I  obviously stupidly assumed that any property offered in such a high  profile auction would have been kosher.



You didn't check.  There is nothing non kosher about what Allsops did. In many of these cases and in other auctions, the property is only really suitable for a cash buyer as there are problems with the title or with the structure or whatever.

Brendan


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## belview

You are right Brendan but if you will allow me to say it you could bit a bit more sensitive and sympathetic towards Gottogo.

Bye the way Gottogo as  these apartments are most likely to be offered in the next auction due in July could you do the wider public a favour and identify where they are


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## mercman

belview said:


> You are right Brendan but if you will allow me to say it you could bit a bit more sensitive and sympathetic towards Gottogo.



There certainly is no easy way to tell somebody that they made a complete mess of something. The golden rule and very well and often documented is to do a legal search before one buys at an Auction.

OP, your only saving grace could be to find others that actually own apartments in the same development or find the solicitors that acted for the developers and request details as to problems with the Title documents.


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## Greta

Get another solicitor to answer the question what happens now. Don't use the same solicitor you have been using ever again - he should really have answered your question as to what options you have NOW. Granted you should have checked prior to the auction etc, your solicitor's job is to advise you about the present situation, not just to sit back and feel smug about the mistakes you made.


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## Bronte

Gottogo said:


> The information provided by the Vendor does not allow my solicitor to issue a certification of title to the bank and the agreement I signed on "auction day" apparently forgoes any right I have to request additional information.


 
This should be added to the key post on auctions as a stark reminder to others.  As there are going to be so many of these auctions, a warning should be put in the national newspapers by the consumer affairs (?) department warning people to seek legal advice before they go to an auction.  In fact it's a pity it wasn't mandatory for advertisments of auctions to have a small print warning on this issue.  

Gottogo for others would you mind posting up the wording of the document you signed at the auction.


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## Brendan Burgess

Hi Bronte

I am ahead of you on this!

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showpost.php?p=1169870&postcount=15

I have just noticed that I said back then: 


> *Some houses are sold by auction because they are defective *
> Don’t discover afterwards that there is serious dry rot or a problem with the title.



Brendan


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## Bronte

Gottogo said:


> I bought one of the Dublin apts at the recent Allsop auction - the problem appears to be with the title of the overall development.


 
No you have no rights, you've signed away your rights. What you need to do now is find out exactly what is the title problem. Not sure how much time the auction house are going to give you? Being logical other people have purchased in that building. You could knock on doors and explain to the owners your predicment and ask them what solicitor they used and if there was an issue with the title for them. That solicitor will know how to sort out the title issue and you could hire him. 

Not sure with the new registration process of titles but I wonder if you contacted the Land Registry would they be able to tell you the names of solicitors who worked on those titles. You could also maybe go to the solicitor of the original builder. 

If you name the building as other posters have mentioned you might find someone here on AAM with more concrete advice. 

If time is off the essence than you would do well to seek monies from elsewhere, selling what you have now. It's not necessarily throwing good money after bad, but if you don't close the sale and you have money/assets a job they will be coming after you via the courts and the costs will start to mount. 

If you do sort out the money and the title is really bad, then you should hire Allsops to put it at the next auction and pass the problem on to someone else. It's entirely possible that the title problem is something you can live with.


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## Brendan Burgess

Good advice there Bronte.

The main problem is that no lender will give him the money with a defective title, so he will have to get the money from elsewhere e.g. sell one of his other investments. 

Otherwise it will only be a problem if the OP wants to sell it again. 

It should not stop hime letting it which was his original attention.


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## cremeegg

Some of the Galway apartments at the Allsop auction carried specific warnings about possible problems with the title. If the apartment the OP bought didnt carry a warning this may give him an argument against the auctioneers. There is a legal principle "nomine uniam exclude altero" (excuse the latin) which means that if something is indicated in one place and not in another it does not apply to the other.

Basically if the auctioneers indicated a problem with some apts and not with his the buyer was entitled to assume his apt had no problem.

This might give the OP an opportunity to repudiate the contract. Good Luck


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## mercman

Cremeegg good point. but in cases of purchasing anything at an Auction, not just property the term 'Caveat Emptor must be taken as a factor.


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## Bronte

cremeegg said:


> Basically if the auctioneers indicated a problem with some apts and not with his the buyer was entitled to assume his apt had no problem.


 
Find this hard to believe. The whole point of an auction is precisely the opposite. Buyer beware and check out your title first, it's not up too auctioneers to do this for you. Certainly not the auctioneers of the seller's who has no duty of care to you.

Cremeegg, could you elaborate on what was said/written about the Galway apartments. 

Time for one of the newspapers to do a serious article on auctions, or maybe the Law Society might put out a press release to warn the public on the implications of buying at auction.  Before the horse has bolted.


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## Brendan Burgess

Bronte said:


> Time for one of the newspapers to do a serious article on auctions, or maybe the Law Society might put out a press release to warn the public on the implications of buying at auction. .



Hi Bronte

I have already sent a link to this thread to some journalists suggesting that they come back to it before the next Allsops auction.


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## aristotle

I watched the Allsop auction and they did state that any potential buyers should do a title check, survey etc. It was clearly said so I don't know what point there would be in running to the newspapers to try and make a story out of nothing.


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## Brendan Burgess

Hi Aristotle

it's a story with a great lesson.  

Some people don't listen to general warnings such as "Check the title before you bid at an auction" 

However, most people are influenced more by stories. e.g. "I bought on a whim without checking the title and now I am screwed. " 

I would say highlighting Gottogo's story would save other people from making the same mistake.


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## Bronte

aristotle said:


> I watched the Allsop auction and they did state that any potential buyers should do a title check, survey etc. It was clearly said so I don't know what point there would be in running to the newspapers to try and make a story out of nothing.


 

Apart from Gottog's tale of woe we had another poster on here that as far as I know we prevented from buying without checking title or doing a survey.  That a person saved.  If a newspaper article does the same it will be a good thing.  Unfortunatly people need to be saved from themselves.  People think that buying a property for such a 'cheap' amount is a bargain and they lose the run of themselves.  Instead of a celtic bubble we'll have an auction bubble, not a good thing.


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## Brendan Burgess

Hi Bronte

That is interesting. I don't remember that post. If you could find it, I would put a link into the Guide to Buying a House at Auction.

Brendan


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## Bronte

it took ages to find it and actually it was the inspiration for the key thread.  

Vince on 22 March : Bidding at auction w/o mortgage approval

And have a look at Decko on the 8th May vendor reneging on signed contract who bought at auction but there was a problem as both vendor's did not sign.


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## Brendan Burgess

Thanks Bronte

Pity getogo didn't ask here beforehand. 

I don't think that Decko did anything wrong. he checked out everything and he signed the contract.  The only thing he could have done differently was to bring his solicitor to the auction with him which would not be practical, as one probably bids on 10 houses before being successful. 

I could add it to the Key Post - "make sure that the other side signs the contract" but I think that would be so rare, it's not worth putting in. 

Brendan


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## cremeegg

Cremeegg, could you elaborate on what was said/written about the Galway apartments. 

The Allsop web site no longer has details of the properties from the previous auction. From memory and filtered through my possibly faulty understanding, there was a warning that The Bank of Scotland charge on the property would be released on sale but there was no assurance that some other charge did not exist.


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## Bronte

That's a very good point there Creemeg about other charges particular in the times we are living in with people having debt here there and everywhere.  Anyone buying at auction should ensure their solicitor does searches on the day of the auction.


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## Marita

People who have to borrow should be very wary of signing a binding  contract until they actually have the money's drawn down from the bank.at the moment I would not rely on any loan offer because the banks keep changing their criteria and looking for further valuations and documentation before they release loan cheque.make sure you are not bound to buy unless you are sure of the money.


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## serotoninsid

Marita said:


> People who have to borrow should be very wary of signing a binding  contract until they actually have the money's drawn down from the bank.at the moment I would not rely on any loan offer because the banks keep changing their criteria and looking for further valuations and documentation before they release loan cheque.make sure you are not bound to buy unless you are sure of the money.


Which reinforces the point I made on another 'auction' thread i.e. auctions simply don't those who have to rely on lenders for partial finance.  Of course, you may say that all the 'homework' can be done beforehand - but apart from all the hassle, there are costs involved.  Also, I'm not sure it's so smart that an auctioneer sees just how committed you are to bidding on the property...


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## roberthoban

For those interested in bidding at one of our auctions, or in the auction process in general, please read in full our Guide to Buying at Auction in Ireland.



Regards
Robert Hoban, Director of Auctions, Allsop Sace


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## Bronte

Hi Robert and welcome to AAM.  If is very good of you to post up that link and I think a welcome development that we are finally having these auctions to clear the market.

Could you clarify please if your firm consulted solicitors in Ireland before your firm wrote those guidelines?

We've been having a couple of interesting debates on AAM about the legalaties of the bidding process which is not at all as clear cut as one might have thought.


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## Brendan Burgess

Hi Bronte

I looked at those guidelines and they seem spot on to me. Is there something in there which you think is not correct or open to debate?

Brendan


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## Bronte

They had guidelines before are those one's a more updated version? Seem to remember via the UK website on Irish auctions that it was not so comprehensive. Guidelines are excellent very clear and precise.

What is still not clear to me is if your bid is accepted is that the contract or is it when you sign the Memorandium and the sale can only be enforced based on that. As per another poster that property transactions can only happen in writing. 

I guess the Memorandium from the way the guidelines are worded is signed by the vendors in advance. In the last auction in April my understanding was that all the properties belonged to the BOSI bank, they had title and that was very clear and would have been sorted out in advance. But for the future, based on one poster on AAM, one would want to make sure that all vendor's have signed the Memorandium. 

There is also something interesting in Irish law, the family home protection act. Not sure how but potentially could cause problems. 

In relation to searches, Allsop are providing them but one would really need them on the day of sale, presumably one's solicitor will do that. Never know when a judgment could be slapped on properties these days. 

In relation to finance, one has 5 weeks to close, not really a problem, but it's no good having the bank saying yes (and having done a valuation etc) you'd want a guarantee that the bank will loan the money and we have heard of people who had loan offers that were withdrawn on the day of sale/transfer. Not sure what a solicitor would have to do to get a guarantee from the bank that the money is in order. It's difficult in a normal sale currently to get that check is my understanding. Hence no doubt the reason the last auction was mostly cash buyers. It would be interesting to know if there were buyers with mortgages and how that went. 

Just a few thoughts. In relation to the guidelines, was just wondering if Allsops had taken legal advice from an Irish legal firm. 

People purchasing should ask the solicitor how much it costs for initial checking of title etc, and how much if the sale goes through.

Also would love to hear from Gottogo and how he got on.


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## Brendan Burgess

> But for the future, based on one poster on AAM, one would want to make sure that all vendor's have signed the Memorandium.



That was  not an Allsop's auction. In fact, it was not even an auction. The property was withdrawn at auction and sold by private treaty afterwards. 



> What is still not clear to me is if your bid is accepted is that the  contract or is it when you sign the Memorandium and the sale can only be  enforced based on that.



MF1 has clarified that when the hammer comes down, the auctioneer is entitled to bind both vendor and purchaser. There really is no issue here. If you bid at an auction and Mr Allsop announces sold, you are obliged to buy and the seller is obliged to sell. 



> There is also something interesting in Irish law, the family home protection act



There are many interesting things in Irish law which may affect the sale of a house. But that is where your solicitor comes in. If your solicitor feels that there is a risk that someone else may have a claim to the house, then she will advise you not to buy it. Where there is a dispute over ownership, the vendor's solicitor would presumably not sell the property until the dispute was resolved. 



> In relation to searches, Allsop are providing them but one would really  need them on the day of sale, presumably one's solicitor will do that.  Never know when a judgment could be slapped on properties these days.



That is a good question.


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