# Flying to Canada via US



## Smokeygirl (24 Jun 2007)

Hello,
I am booking flights for my holidays to Canada and the US.
I am flying from Dublin to Calgary.
The cheapest flights I can get are dublin-chicago-calgary.
On my way home, I am planning on stopping in the US for a couple of days.

Is there any issue with US immigration/visas for such a trip?
I am asking this because when I got a recent quote from trailfinders they said that it is better to fly direct to Canada, and avoid going through the US. 

Any/all advice is appreciated.


----------



## ClubMan (24 Jun 2007)

Unless you don't qualify for the visa waiver that normally applies to _Irish_ passport holders I can't see any problem. If the _Chicago-Calgary _route is just a transfer rather than actually clearing immigration in the _US _then you will presumably *not *get a green _US _immigration form on entry which needs to be surrendered when you leave the _US_. Conversely when you arrive in the _US _from _Canada _you probably will get such a form which you need to surrender on exit. Can't see any problems with the itinerary as long as you deal with your green forms appropriately!


----------



## Brooklyn (25 Jun 2007)

If you don't qualify for the visa waiver program then you do need a transit visa just to change planes in the US.  You can get one for up to 29 days which would cover your stopover on the way back.

If you do qualify for visa waiver there shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## EvilDoctorK (25 Jun 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Unless you don't qualify for the visa waiver that normally applies to _Irish_ passport holders I can't see any problem. If the _Chicago-Calgary _route is just a transfer rather than actually clearing immigration in the _US _then you will presumably *not *get a green _US _immigration form on entry which needs to be surrendered when you leave the _US_. Conversely when you arrive in the _US _from _Canada _you probably will get such a form which you need to surrender on exit. Can't see any problems with the itinerary as long as you deal with your green forms appropriately!



Nope - you still need to clear US Immigration even if in International to International transit according to Department of Homeland Paranoia rules in place since after 9/11.  So Smokeygirl will have to do US immigration formalities in both directions on this trip ... but apart from being a hassle it shouldn't be a problem unless for some reason she's not eligible for the visa waiver programme.


----------



## ClubMan (25 Jun 2007)

Thanks - I wasn't sure if you cleared _US _immigration when transferring but should have assumed the worst these days...


----------



## EvilDoctorK (25 Jun 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Thanks - I wasn't sure if you cleared _US _immigration when transferring but should have assumed the worst these days...



Yup afraid so  ..  In fact even if you're transiting through on the same aircraft that just stops in the US you still have to clear immigration since 2001

e.g. Air NZ fly from London via LA to Auckland ... and I believe Air Canada have a flight to Oz from Vancouver that stops in Hawaii.

On both of these flights (and probably others too) I believe you've got to clear US immigration while the plane is on the ground even though you (and most of the passengers) are just getting back on the same aircraft.


----------



## Brooklyn (26 Jun 2007)

EvilDoctorK said:


> Nope - you still need to clear US Immigration even if in International to International transit according to Department of Homeland Paranoia rules in place since after 9/11.



It actually pre-dates 9/11.  Britain has a similar policy.  I remember having to go through immigration at Heathrow when I was changing planes on a trip from Dublin to Madrid in the days before direct flights (early 2000 I think).


----------



## EvilDoctorK (26 Jun 2007)

Brooklyn said:


> It actually pre-dates 9/11.  Britain has a similar policy.  I remember having to go through immigration at Heathrow when I was changing planes on a trip from Dublin to Madrid in the days before direct flights (early 2000 I think).



The UK/Ireland thing is unrelated .. it's because of the _Common Travel Area_ between the UK & Ireland ... so it's always been the case if travelling Dublin - London - AN Other Country that you've to clear immigration in London as at Heathrow you're processed with UK Domestic Passengers.

Passengers transitting Heathrow on 2 international flights (apart from Ireland) don't have to clear UK immigration as far as I'm aware  - they pass through the Flight Connections Centre which doesn't have immigration facilities, apart from for Ireland & UK Domestic passengers.

The US rule may pre-date 9/11 .. not sure.. I had thought it didn't though


----------



## Brooklyn (26 Jun 2007)

EvilDoctorK said:


> The UK/Ireland thing is unrelated .. it's because of the _Common Travel Area_ between the UK & Ireland ... so it's always been the case if travelling Dublin - London - AN Other Country that you've to clear immigration in London as at Heathrow you're processed with UK Domestic Passengers.



As far as I know, Britain has no exit controls and 'UK domestic passengers' wouldn't normally have to go through immigration on their way out of the country.



> Passengers transitting Heathrow on 2 international flights (apart from Ireland) don't have to clear UK immigration as far as I'm aware  - they pass through the Flight Connections Centre which doesn't have immigration facilities, apart from for Ireland & UK Domestic passengers.



I don't know the Heathrow procedures for non-Ireland related flights, but it is the case that visa nationals are required to obtain transit visas to transit through Britain - plenty of information about this on the Home Office website.



> The US rule may pre-date 9/11 .. not sure.. I had thought it didn't though



Well the US had transit visas when I was living there and I left in early 2000.


----------



## redchariot (26 Jun 2007)

In Heathrow or any other UK airport if you are both arriving and departing on international flights (flights to/from Rep. Ireland don't count as international for this purpose), you do not clear immigration. But if you are arriving in from say LAX to London and transferring to a flight to another UK or Rep. Ireland airport, you have to clear immigration as when you arrive at your final destination, passengers are regarded as having flying from London.

As for the USA, you have to clear immigration every time, even if you are transiting to another country immediately. It is ok for most Irish citizens under the Visa Waiver agreement but if you require a visa, it takes a fair amount of red tape and what for - just to pass through.

One other thing, ensure that there is sufficient time (allow at least 2 hours) at your connecting airport to allow time to clear immigration.


----------



## Brooklyn (27 Jun 2007)

redchariot said:


> if you are arriving in from say LAX to London and transferring to a flight to another UK or Rep. Ireland airport, you have to clear immigration as when you arrive at your final destination, passengers are regarded as having flying from London.



There is more to it than that.  We dealt with a case in my office with an Indian national who was nearly turned back at Heathrow because he did not have a British transit visa.  He had an entry visa for Ireland, but not a British transit visa and so they were not going to allow him even to change planes there.  Took several hours and the intervention of a high profile TD before they were persuaded and he had to obtain a transit visa for his return journey.

It's also the case that visa nationals in Ireland are not even allowed to take a bus from Dublin to Donegal without obtaining a British transit visa, because the bus passes through the Six Counties.  In practice of course this is rarely enforced but it is British law nonetheless.


----------



## EvilDoctorK (27 Jun 2007)

Brooklyn said:


> As far as I know, Britain has no exit controls and 'UK domestic passengers' wouldn't normally have to go through immigration on their way out of the country.
> 
> I don't know the Heathrow procedures for non-Ireland related flights, but it is the case that visa nationals are required to obtain transit visas to transit through Britain - plenty of information about this on the Home Office website.



Fair point .. I should have said AN Other Country-Heathrow-Ireland ... in that scenario you definitely do clear UK immigration in Heathrow ...   In the other direction I agree they did look at your passport sometimes, but I don't think it was a full immigration check .. not sure  (Sometimes they do have passport checks on standard outbound flights in Heathrow.. but only occasionally).

The "Airport Transit Visas" - I think the purpose of them is to have grounds to refuse people travel who are considered likely to claim asylum. They were I think brought in to stop people buying tickets from Eritrea or wherever via Heathrow to a 3rd country where no visa was required.  Then when the individual got to Heathrow they "forgot" they wanted to go to a 3rd country and decided to claim asylum. 

Historically "normal" transit visas would allow the holder to pass through a country for a couple of days enroute to another country ... and those doing an airside transit wouldn't need a visa. I think these normal transit visas still exist as they've always done for many countries .. .but this extra type of visa was brought in for the UK and Schengen countries quite recently (maybe in some other places too)

Being in the fortunate situation of not being subject to these draconian visa regulations I'm not that familiar with them - but I presume the main enforcement of this is that airlines will not allow people to board flights to Heathrow if they're in direct transit to a 3rd country unless they're in posession of this airside transit visa .. as if they did let them on and they were subsequently found then the airline gets a very stiff fine. (Just checking them when you got to London would sort of defeat the purpose as the individual would already have got to the place they wanted to)

Despite these visas the situation remains that for international (excluding Ireland) transits through Heathrow you don't pass the UK Immigration checks (the route to the Flight Connections Centre is before you get to immigration) .. So any enforcement of these transit visas by UK Immigration mustn't be systematic and must rely on the airlines (and the threat of fines to the airlines) I guess.

But anyway I think we're drifting well off the original topic as I guess that Smokeygirl isn't looking to claim asylum in Chicago


----------



## EvilDoctorK (27 Jun 2007)

Brooklyn said:


> There is more to it than that.  We dealt with a case in my office with an Indian national who was nearly turned back at Heathrow because he did not have a British transit visa.  He had an entry visa for Ireland, but not a British transit visa and so they were not going to allow him even to change planes there.  Took several hours and the intervention of a high profile TD before they were persuaded and he had to obtain a transit visa for his return journey.
> 
> It's also the case that visa nationals in Ireland are not even allowed to take a bus from Dublin to Donegal without obtaining a British transit visa, because the bus passes through the Six Counties.  In practice of course this is rarely enforced but it is British law nonetheless.



Quite crazy alright... I think one of the issues is that because we've the "Common Travel Area" between the UK & Ireland and this is a result of years of working that way and as I undestand it doesn't have a particularly explicit legal basis.  This means that it's very awkward with cases like this .. since in some senses it is an international transit and in other senses it isn't .. and the system was never designed to work very well with large numbers of people who don't have the right to work/live/stay in both jursidictions ..  it's indeed very messy.

I would assume that the Indian guy was stopped by UK Immigration as he left the flight connections centre in London to go towards the gates for Ireland .. I guess UK Immigration's take on it is that they have to consider entry requirements for the UK & Ireland as once he's through that checkpoint there's literally nothing to stop him just exiting the airport (you can just walk out without checks from the UK domestic gates where that exit leads on to)

You're certainly right that there's often more to it .. I think 99% of us here are in a very fortunate position that we don't have to unduly worry about these things .. but really they can be very complicated and hard to consider fair in any sense.


----------

