# Advice on self employed no longer working.



## TableEnd (19 Apr 2012)

If your self employed and your business closes.. what entitlements can you get?

This person is married and their spouse earns over 40000
They cannot find work after 12 weeks and are struggling, ideally he would love to go back into full time education with the back to education scheme. Would he be entitled to anything like that.

Many thanks


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## Purple (20 Apr 2012)

Have you looked at the Citizens Information website and the links from the Key Posts in this section?


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## GDUFFY (20 Apr 2012)

If the person's  wife earns 40,000 and the person was formaly self employed , but now unemployed the person will get a big fat zero , No back to Education help either , He's a non person who is not worthy of getting any help to be a productive member of society again in the eyes of our social welfare system and current government . Tell him to Remember that when he decides to be self employed again . Been there done that wore the ..... well you get the idea. Pass on my Sympathies.


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## dymo (20 Apr 2012)

my husband has had very little work and for long peroids none.i earn €36000 and we are entilited to 54 cents a week. that is what you get for being self employed working long hours and never been on the dole in his life it is very frusting.if he does not claim the 54 cents then you can do none of the fas scheme ect.At time you would think that we would be both better off on the dole then at least we would get things.Hopefuly things will pick up soon a


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## eastbono (20 Apr 2012)

Anyone be they self employed or employed and are applying for Jobseekers Allowance are means tested. Their spouses/partners earnings are assessed as means. There is no distinction made between self employed or employed. Many employed people who after 12 months on jobseekers benefit when their benefit exhausts find themselves in the exact same situation as self employed people and receive no social welfare payment even if they have been employed all of their working lives.


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## GDUFFY (20 Apr 2012)

eastbono said:


> Many employed people who after 12 months on jobseekers benefit when their benefit exhausts find themselves in the exact same situation as self employed people and receive no social welfare payment even if they have been employed all of their working lives.


 
Exactly former Self Employed people dont have the benefit of the 12 month JSB safety net like their former Employed citizens, there would be no feeling of discrimination if both people finding themselves unemployed were treated the same ie 12 months dole then apply for means tested JSA.
And dont bring it back to the old chestnut about prsi , its been shown that a self employed person on 20k a year pays more tax and prsi than an employed person on 20 k per year .


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## eastbono (21 Apr 2012)

GDUFFY said:


> Exactly former Self Employed people dont have the benefit of the 12 month JSB safety net like their former Employed citizens, there would be no feeling of discrimination if both people finding themselves unemployed were treated the same ie 12 months dole then apply for means tested JSA.
> And dont bring it back to the old chestnut about prsi , its been shown that a self employed person on 20k a year pays more tax and prsi than an employed person on 20 k per year .



I wont bring it back to the old chestnut about prsi but that is the way the system operates at the moment. Perhaps self-employed people should become organised and lobby the minister etc. or if they have already done so then they should become more vocal about it in the media etc.


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## GDUFFY (21 Apr 2012)

To address the OP's question, He will get nothing, and Yes that is the way the system operates at present but that in itself does'nt make it fair. All parties to Government are fully aware of this hardship being forced on families, but alas nothing being done. Little apples will grow again .


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## Complainer (29 Apr 2012)

GDUFFY said:


> And dont bring it back to the old chestnut about prsi , its been shown that a self employed person on 20k a year pays more tax and prsi than an employed person on 20 k per year .



Where exactly was this shown?


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## GDUFFY (29 Apr 2012)

DB74 explained it to you in a previous post , but it obviously didnt sink in .I cant add links yet . Do the math for yourself .


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## Complainer (29 Apr 2012)

GDUFFY said:


> DB74 explained it to you in a previous post , but it obviously didnt sink in .I cant add links yet . Do the math for yourself .



That's some amazing memory for a two-week old poster - going back to 6-month old posts! I guess you're referring to some of  the postings on this thread;

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=160351&page=2

None of the posts on that thread show that "that a self employed person on 20k a year pays more tax and prsi than an employed person on 20 k per year".


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## GDUFFY (29 Apr 2012)

Complainer said:


> That's some amazing memory for a two-week old poster - going back to 6-month old posts! I guess you're referring to some of the postings on this thread;
> 
> ( Deleted URL can't post it )
> 
> None of the posts on that thread show that "that a self employed person on 20k a year pays more tax and prsi than an employed person on 20 k per year".


 



I did'nt realise I was restricted to reading newer posts only ,Ive been reading this site for years and only joined recently. Sorry if I opened an old wound .

My calculation of a basic worker on 20k for Employed and Self employed are follows , if I am wrong I will accept it and learn from it . 

Employee

GROSS = 20,000
TAX deducted = 700.08
PRSI class al = 535.60
USC = 718.80
NET PAY = 18,045.52


SELF EMPLOYED
Gross = 20,000
tax deducted = 2,350.04
prsi CLASS SO = 799.76
USC = 718.80
NET PAY = 16,131.40

SO :

Employee tax & prsi = 1235.68 

Self employed tax & prsi = 3149.80

A self employed person on 20k a year pays more tax and prsi than an employed person on 20 k per year yet we have no automatic right to 12 months JSB as our fellow Employed citizens.

Am I wrong ?


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## ClaireM (29 Apr 2012)

Depending on if their are children and how many there may be an entitlement to Family Income Supplement and a medical card.


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## Complainer (29 Apr 2012)

GDUFFY said:


> Am I wrong ?


Have you found the only self-employed person in the country who doesn't claim any 'expenses'?


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## GDUFFY (29 Apr 2012)

Ok you obviously have no experience in the runnings of a small business so let me give you a simple example.

SELF EMPLOYED CAFE OWNER. SOLE TRADER.

TURNOVER                                      180,000  P.A. EX VAT

TOTAL PURCHASES -EX VAT   60,000
RENT                                  30,000
RATES                                  6,000
INSURANCE                            1,200
LIGHT & heat                         7,000
wages & EMPLOYER PRSI         46,000
waste collection                     2,000
water                                     800
equipment leasing                   5,000
advertising                            1,000 
ACCOUNTANT                        1,000

NET PROFIT                        20,000

ONLY EXPENCES INCURRED IN THE COURSE OF AND FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE BUSINESS ARE DEDUCTABLE AND ARE SUBJECT TO AUDIT AND ARE THE FIRST THING LOOKED AT IN AN AUDIT .

THE NET PROFIT IS IN EFFECT THE BUSINESS OWNERS EARNINGS FROM THE BUSINESS , THIS IS THEN TREATED AS TAXABLE INCOME AS IN MY PREVIOUS POST.SO WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT EXPENCES ?

IF THE BUSINESS IS A LIMITED COMPANY THE OWNER / DIRECTOR WAGES ARE  DEALT WITH THROUGH THE PAYE SYSTEM AND ANY PROFITS LEFT IN THE COMPANY ARE TAXED BY CORPORATION  TAX IN THE COMPANIES TAX FILLINGS.

Most small business owners would recognise the above simple accounts .
Most small business are sole traders.
This example could be adjusted for most small business, ie Hairdresser, Retail shop,Trades person,Taxi driver,Creche,Florist, etc etc.


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## Firefly (30 Apr 2012)

Complainer said:


> That's some amazing memory for a two-week old poster - going back to 6-month old posts! I guess you're referring to some of the postings on this thread;
> 
> http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=160351&page=2
> 
> None of the posts on that thread show that "that a self employed person on 20k a year pays more tax and prsi than an employed person on 20 k per year".


 
Ah yes, I remember that thread too - good find. For completeness would you care to respond to my post (#24) as previously asked? I've also covered the claiming of 'expenses' as you call them in this thread. Unless they are for business purposes in the eyes of Revenue they will need to be repaid with interest and penalties. Do you have something to add to this?


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## Complainer (5 May 2012)

GDUFFY said:


> Ok you obviously have no experience in the runnings of a small business so let me give you a simple example.
> 
> SELF EMPLOYED CAFE OWNER. SOLE TRADER.
> 
> ...


Maybe you could avoid personal digs and SHOUTING in your future posts and just concentrate on the issue in hand?

Your theoretical situation is a long way from reality. It ignores the option for self-employed people to reduce their tax bill by stuffing their own pension funds to the maximum Revenue limits, getting tax-free growth in their pension fund and then pull it down once they start getting into their fifties. It ignores the ability of self-employed people to manipulate their profit figures from year to year to ensure that they qualify for grants to put their kids through college. It ignores the ability of self-employed people to get a little bit confused about paying for items for personal use and paying for items for their business. All those little small jobs that need doing around the house that get paid for out of the business - who can prove that the call-out charge to unblock a toilet or mow the grass related to the business premises or the home? It ignores the ability of self-employed people to make up the bulk of the Revenue name-and-shame lists.

Let's get real here.


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## GDUFFY (5 May 2012)

As my daughter would say OMG.


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## Complainer (5 May 2012)

GDUFFY said:


> As my daughter would say OMG.



Does she normally avoid hard questions?


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## GDUFFY (5 May 2012)

You've been put firmly back in your little box by myself and Firefly and cant take it. Your view of self employed people is an insult to all honest, hardworking self employed people who work hard to keep themselves and others in employment . If you have knowledge of people who are evading tax you should report it to revenue. You have'nt asked any hard questions , just rambling and rants which have no basis and which I will not entertain. I dont feed Trolls.


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## Complainer (5 May 2012)

GDUFFY said:


> You've been put firmly back in your little box by myself and Firefly and cant take it.


Thanks for letting me know, I guess I missed that part of your response. I'm sure all of us who've heard stories of rampant tax evasion among self-employed people and a 'what's your best price for cash' culture were all mistaken.


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## Purple (11 May 2012)

Complainer said:


> Thanks for letting me know, I guess I missed that part of your response. I'm sure all of us who've heard stories of rampant tax evasion among self-employed people and a 'what's your best price for cash' culture were all mistaken.



Many employees engage in tax evasion and other criminal activities, as do self employed people. Are you suggesting that because some self employed people engage in tax evasion we should ignore the fact that they pay more tax and don't get unemployment assistance? 

The facts don't support your position therefore you imply impropriety by self employed people in general. That's a disgraceful slur on tens of thousands of people.

By the way I've no dog in this fight; I'm a PAYE employee of my company.


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