# Holidaying in Portugal after the abduction



## gramlab (23 May 2007)

Heading to portugal on sunday for 2 weeks with 2 1/2 year old girl. A lot of people have asked me if I thought about possibly cancelling, taking extra precautions, not leaving my little girl out of my sight etc.

She is blonde and the portugeese have a thing about giving more attention to blonde children as they think "blonde" is lucky. She got a lot of attention last year when we were there. I would never leave her on her own anyway, but would anyone actually cancel a holiday or do anything different  because of the Madeline abduction??


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## xavier (23 May 2007)

It would not deter me. This case seems to have caused mass hysteria. I've heard my neighbours talking of cancelling visits to France, Spain and Italy based on the fear this case has introduced.

If you take the normal precautions, like not leaving her alone for instance, then there should be no problem.


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## IsleOfMan (23 May 2007)

Driving past the Deerpark playground in Mount Merrion yesterday I noticed a woman who had parked her car partly on the footpath and within yards of the roundabout. Her car was partly blocked by a 4 x 4 that was parked in front of her. The woman was standing on the footpath side of the car while she allowed her son who couldn't have been more than 4 years of age climb out of the car on the roadside. It would have only taken a split second for that child to be killed by a passing car, a careless moment. How many people do things like that - don't insist that their children put on their seat belts, push the buggy on to the roadway while they stand on the footpath waiting to cross the road, leave kids in the car unattended etc. Are these people just plain stupid, thick away with the fairies, or lazy?


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## ACA (23 May 2007)

I feel sorry for Madelaine's parents being a parent myself - but everyone seems to have forgotten that they left 3 children under the age of 4 alone in an apartment - hardly makes them parents of the year, even if they are doctors! Don't think tying a yellow ribbon in their hometown makes up for the previous neglect on their part.


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## Firefly (23 May 2007)

I wouldn't cancel my holiday...if anything Portugal must be the safest place at the moment with all the attention it's getting.


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## ang1170 (23 May 2007)

I think people have great difficulty in assessing the difference between real risk (as in the ParkLane's example regarding traffic dangers) and what is frankly mass hysteria.

We're off to Disney World in Florida this summer. We've had more than one person tell us to be extra vigilent whilst there, because of all the child abductions (and this was before this latest case happened). It struck me as rather odd: how could Disney put up with that? I did some research, and in the more than 30 years the place has been open, and the tens of millions of visitors it's had, the total number of child abductions is: none. 

I'd never leave such young children in an apartnment by themselves, no matter how close I was. However, the reason is not that I'd be worried some stranger would come and take them, but that they might wake and terrify themselves when nobody answered, or that they wandered out and were hit by a car, or any number of accidents that can and do happen. 

Having said that, I'd be very slow to judge anyone in that circumstance, as we've all done things we shouldn't have in retrospect. They'e also certainly paying for their mistake now.

Think about it: how many millions of people have travelled to Portugal, Spain, Italy and so on over say the past 10 years? How many child abductions from that group of people? It's so rare, it really doesn't deserve any real concern (as against the kinds of stuff that does happen: drownings, road traffic accidents, general accidents etc. etc.)

The problem of course is that by generating a climate of fear and mistrust that in itself has an adverse effect on children growing up. It's a sad world and getting sadder with each new case of media hype.


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## CGorman (23 May 2007)

ACA said:


> everyone seems to have forgotten that they left 3 children under the age of 4 alone in an apartment - hardly makes them parents of the year



Couldnt agree more. Yesterday I was in Albert Park in Dublin with my girlfriend. We were just out for a walk after an exam. Beside the playground we saw a little girl... very very young, maybe 3 or so bellowing "daddy" and crying. She was  walking away from the playground - and started walking around the park looking for her daddy. Other parents in the playground did'nt even bat an eyelid. The kid was tramatised and completely lost. We watched for about 10min from a small distance because we felt it wrong to leave the child alone - however, whilst we did approach the child and ask where daddy was (didnt answer), we didnt go any furture as some parents would lambast you for approaching their child. Anyways after about 10-15min the father emerged from the far side of brush and hedge - he had been playing tennis...

We were absolutely disgusted. He doesnt deserve to be a father. The poor child was left unattended for far too long...


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## ci1 (23 May 2007)

I firmly believe that there are some people that should be actually vetted out before they are allowed to have kids, some people have no commitment to the responsibility.
Look at the women in the UK a few weeks ago that filmed the kids bashing each other and egged them on.

If in Ireland a parent left 3 children alone in a house and one got abducted, the social services would be stepping in immediately to care for the others, so how come this is not the case here?

They are 2 very highly intelligent people judging by their professions and while my heart aches for them and what they are going through quite simply I have to ask: What were they thinking? 
There were 2 other children there, what if they had been unfortunate enough to be abducted aswell.
the mind boggles!


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## casiopea (23 May 2007)

I'm not condoning what they did. I'm sure they themselves are asking "what were we thinking?".  I too think it was neglectful,  I can see however how they got themselves into a pattern of false security.  This feeling of - everyone eats late on the continent - we're in a family friendly resort - everyone is doing this etc. they got themselves into a pattern of thinking this was safe.  It was neglectful, but I can see how it wasn't intentional and also how it can happen to 2 well educated, well meaning people.  As ang1170 said, we've all done things we wouldn't in retrospect.  I'm sure they are now asking themselves "what were we thinking". I'm sure they'd happily submit to a lengthy social services investigation rather than losing their daughter.  It was a mistake, a terrible mistake.

Unfortunately Madeline paid the price.


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## Carpenter (24 May 2007)

Good post, Casiopea.  I'm bringing my family on holiday to Portugal this year and this unfortunate and sad case does not alter our plans in any way.  Children are at risk wherever they are (in the family home at home, or abroad) if parents or guardians are negligent.


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## jhegarty (24 May 2007)

I don't know about going to Portugal but you better get out of Ireland... there was a murder last week !!!


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## gramlab (24 May 2007)

Guy working with me told me this morning that his brother was in Albufeira last week with his 3 year old girl (who he says might have a very slight resemblence to Madeline) and over the course of the week a few people had asked his daughter if he was her daddy. Said he was a bit annoyed that someone might think he was paedophile or whatever but he could understand why they were asking.
(He is a bit of a storyteller so not sure how true this is)

Looking forward to my holiday and cant see myself doing anything differenty because of what happened, but each to their own I say.

Just hope the blanket media coverage has not made things worse for the poor child.


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## Vanilla (24 May 2007)

On the one hand Madeleines' parents have my sympathy. On the other hand I can't help thinking that if this had happened to someone from a different socio economic background that there would have been more of an outcry. 

I've heard of hotels in Ireland and abroad offering baby-listening services which vary from a kind of a baby monitor through the hotel bedroom to members of staff listening at doors on a rota! Even apart from this I''ve heard of people putting a baby monitor in the room and bringing the receiver down to the restaurant with them in the hotel.

Call me paranoid but far before Madeleine I would never have left my children alone in these circumstances. When we went to Menorca the year before last our apartment was on the ground floor just next to the swimming pool. Our toddler was still taking 2 hour naps in the middle of the day then and I wouldnt even sit outside the french doors even with all other doors and windows locked. It was for a variety of reasons- if she woke up and I didnt hear her, or she couldnt see me but also it did occur to me that someone might come into the apartment.

It won't stop our annual holiday this year, won't alter it except I might be even more wary, but as I would never leave either of them alone anyway...

I think many parents are afraid or reluctant to criticise Madeleines' parents because we are very conscious that nobody is perfect. There are potential hazards everywhere for our children. You make a cup of coffee and turn your back for a second, or you leave a pair of scissors or a knife within reach- these things can happen to anyone. God knows I'm far from perfect and that is why I think we all have a touch of ' people in glass houses..'


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## shootingstar (24 May 2007)

CGorman said:


> Couldnt agree more. Yesterday I was in Albert Park in Dublin with my girlfriend. We were just out for a walk after an exam. Beside the playground we saw a little girl... very very young, maybe 3 or so bellowing "daddy" and crying. She was  walking away from the playground - and started walking around the park looking for her daddy. Other parents in the playground did'nt even bat an eyelid. The kid was tramatised and completely lost. We watched for about 10min from a small distance because we felt it wrong to leave the child alone - however, whilst we did approach the child and ask where daddy was (didnt answer), we didnt go any furture as some parents would lambast you for approaching their child. Anyways after about 10-15min the father emerged from the far side of brush and hedge - he had been playing tennis...
> 
> We were absolutely disgusted. He doesnt deserve to be a father. The poor child was left unattended for far too long...



hi cgorman...

you must have serious self-control. I would loose the plot alltogether. seriously. I would have said it, i would have f*!ked all round me and had my say, despite his reaction.
some people dont deserve their kids, and some people have to fight nail & tooth to get an hour evey week! 

tiz a funny world.....


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## ninsaga (24 May 2007)

It would not deter me - does it mean that because you are going to go there that you will be more vigilant than you should be anyway with children!

Desite that anyway, its probably the safest time to go to Portugal - with all the police presence!

,


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## ClubMan (24 May 2007)

I agree with the earlier post about mass hysteria. We were nearby (_Lagos_) during the week of the child's disappearance and are returning in September with our c. 2 year old. This incident would not deter us or cause us any major concern.


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## z108 (25 May 2007)

I agree they shouldnt have left their kids alone. If you go to a bar in Spain or Portugal you will find the locals can bring their babies with them. Lots would have their babies with them snuggled and wrapped up sleeping in a  buggy in  a bar or restaurant at 2 am . It's a very family friendly place.


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## ci1 (25 May 2007)

I agree and disagree with a lot of posts here on this and have my own opinions aswell which I've posted.

Regardless of what our opinions are of the parents and what they done the upshot of all of this is that a little defenceless girl is somewhere in the world without her mam and dad.  She was unlawfully taken and no one knows how she is being treated, is she being fed, looked after and I hate to even think of what worse things are going on.

At this stage whats done is done and it is wasted energy talking about the parents and what we all would have done in the circumstances.

I think everyone at this stage should focus their energy on hoping and praying that Madeline gets returned safely to her family, unharmed and hopefully that she has not experienced too much trauma.
At this stage I think everyone would just like closure on it.  I know I do!


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## ClubMan (25 May 2007)

ci1 said:


> She was unlawfully taken


Allegedly. There is nothing other than circumstantial evidence to support that hypothesis. 


> I think everyone at this stage should focus their energy on hoping and praying that Madeline gets returned safely to her family, unharmed and hopefully that she has not experienced too much trauma.


I agree with the sentiment but would question the efficacy of hopes and prayers in securing a positive outcome...


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## casiopea (25 May 2007)

ClubMan said:


> Allegedly. There is nothing other than circumstantial evidence to support that hypothesis.
> 
> I agree with the sentiment but would question the efficacy of hopes and prayers in securing a positive outcome...



As well as hoping and praying, you can also download an ePoster from www.findmadeline.com and put it up in public places.  You can also contribute to the fund to aid find her on that site.

And if you or anyone you know has been holidaying in the area you should upload your holiday photos (scenes with other people in the background) to [broken link removed]


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## z108 (25 May 2007)

casiopea said:


> As well as hoping and praying, you can also download an ePoster from www.findmadeline.com and put it up in public places.  You can also contribute to the fund to aid find her on that site.
> 
> And if you or anyone you know has been holidaying in the area you should upload your holiday photos (scenes with other people in the background) to [broken link removed]



findmadeline  redirects to

http://www.bringmadeleinehome.com

Her right eye identifies her so well that I think everyone should remember it.

Why depite the media frenzy have I never heard about her eye being so distinctive before ?


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## Carpenter (25 May 2007)

Vanilla said:


> Even apart from this I''ve heard of people putting a baby monitor in the room and bringing the receiver down to the restaurant with them in the hotel.


 
I know of two separate instances where guests at a wedding used this tactic, employing mobile phones to "monitor" their sleeping children while the drank in the bar.  Wonder if they'll do this now?


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## CGorman (25 May 2007)

shootingstar said:


> hi cgorman...
> 
> you must have serious self-control. I would loose the plot alltogether. seriously. I would have said it, i would have f*!ked all round me and had my say, despite his reaction.



That was my inital reaction - I was very angry, but having waited and waited my anger was replaced by serious concern for the child - myself and my girlfriend - we just wanted the child to be ok. - the kid was so upset and trumatised. Afterwards, as we walked away we just flipped - we we're furious... but we did manage to control ourselves until _nearly_ out of earshot. 

What we found most ironic was - her is a 30 odd year old father, presumably settled with a good job... blah, blah, blah... and yet it was two 19yr old students - supposedly the moral-less carefree fools of modern society - who actually looked out for the child. We found it strange to see societies presumptions about responsibilty flipped in this case.


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## ClubMan (25 May 2007)

casiopea said:


> As well as hoping and praying, you can also download an ePoster from www.findmadeline.com and put it up in public places.


I very much doubt that sticking the poster up in _Dublin _is going to help to be honest.


> And if you or anyone you know has been holidaying in the area you should upload your holiday photos (scenes with other people in the background) to [broken link removed]


 We were but having read that site (a) I don't feel that there is anything useful in our snaps and (b) I would not upload them anyway as I don't really trust the relevant authorities with our private data.


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## ClubMan (25 May 2007)

sign said:


> Why depite the media frenzy have I never heard about her eye being so distinctive before ?


This identifying characteristic was covered in several places over the past few weeks.


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## z108 (25 May 2007)

I think its really important because it cant be disguised but I've seriously heard more about the potential suspects than about any identifying characteristics. 

Was her eye mentioned on the TV news  for example?


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## ClubMan (26 May 2007)

sign said:


> Was her eye mentioned on the TV news  for example?


Yes - and in the newspapers. Can't remember the specifics of where and when but it was covered.


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## almo (26 May 2007)

This situation seems to get more odd by the day.  If anyone remembers the story and tv movie "I know my 1st name is Steven" it's so easy to happen.  A kid slips away in a store and disappears.  In this case the parents were at dinner and something is said to have occurred.  We can all slam parents for making mistakes, but if the worst were to occur each time there would be countless child deaths, disappearances and injuries.  I remember hearing a thump when (after a long teething night) my girlfriend fell asleep while feeding the baby, who had also dozed off, and she had wriggled free in seconds and fallen from the couch.  There but for the grace of god and such.

What is a little confusing about the situation is that immediately the press went off witch-hunting, nobody has dared think up of a different scenario than dirty paedo or dark skinned savage looking for a young white child (which is what has been put out).  One idea that has not even been discussed is an internal family mishap, or a family member being involved.


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## z108 (26 May 2007)

you cant enter a room for 20 seconds without leaving DNA evidence behind you yet Im hearing nothing about this in relation to Madelines bedroom.


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## almo (26 May 2007)

This could be a cold case unless there is someone nabbed or a resolution in a week.


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## ang1170 (26 May 2007)

CGorman said:


> That was my inital reaction - I was very angry, but having waited and waited my anger was replaced by serious concern for the child - myself and my girlfriend - we just wanted the child to be ok. - the kid was so upset and trumatised. Afterwards, as we walked away we just flipped - we we're furious... but we did manage to control ourselves until _nearly_ out of earshot.
> 
> What we found most ironic was - her is a 30 odd year old father, presumably settled with a good job... blah, blah, blah... and yet it was two 19yr old students - supposedly the moral-less carefree fools of modern society - who actually looked out for the child. We found it strange to see societies presumptions about responsibilty flipped in this case.


 
I'd say it all depends on the demeanour of the father: if he didn't look particularly bothered when he eventually emererged, then I'd agree: your dead right. 

However, I'd be still be slow to judge. A few years back, before I had my own children, I took my sister's two boys to the park, the younger was about four at the time. As can happen, despite being my being what I thought to be extra vigilent, what every parent knows can happen, did: turned my back for literally seconds and the younger one was gone. There then followed probably the worst five minutes of my life: it felt more like five hours. Of course, I eventually found him, he was happy as larry, having run off and found a new pal to play with. I remember thinking not to show how upset I was as I didn't want to scare him. 

I'm not saying this is what happened in your case, just that I'd be slow to judge others without knowing (a) the exact circumstances and (b) how easy it is to make a mistake that on thinking back you'd never dream of doing.


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## liteweight (26 May 2007)

As I said in another thread, I would not leave my jewellery lying around unattended in an apartment in Portugal. Paedophile rings etc. seemed to be the immediate reaction from the press but perhaps not from the police. It's almost as if people are afraid to ask how thoroughly the parents were questioned. I would have thought a GP would be well aware of the danger of leaving small children unattended. 'Accidents' like those mentioned in this thread occur all the time. However, the lady mentioned above, who fell asleep while breast feeding, did so through exhaustion, not because she decided she'd had enough and deliberately put the baby at risk. Madeleine was left in the apartment at 7 and reported missing at 10! Anyone who has small children knows that a child of four is perfectly capable of waking up and wandering out of either a door or a window in search of his/her parents. This apartment was on the ground floor with a window onto the road outside. What on earth were they thinking? As GPs they must come across all sorts of horror stories relating to children. If not from personal experience, then reading medical reviews etc.

There would be an awful lot of DNA in a rented apartment....the parents, children, the cleaners and, depending on how well the place was cleaned, previous occupants. DNA samples are useless unless you have something to compare them to. The 'flaw' in Maddie's eye was well reported. Her pupil appears to 'bleed' into the iris in the shape of a spy glass, or magnifying glass. The family produced a video which begins with a picture of Maddie with a spy glass in her eye. It's very clever and certainly draws attention to this fact. Once one has had it pointed out, it'd be very easily spotted. I, too, unfortunately think that this is now a cold case.


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## june (27 May 2007)

The Police chief said at the last press conference ( saturday )that they are confident of finding Madeleine. That's a pretty significant statement to make at this stage imo. 
 I don't think this is over by a long shot.


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## casiopea (29 May 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I very much doubt that sticking the poster up in _Dublin _is going to help to be honest.



Why?


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## RainyDay (29 May 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I very much doubt that sticking the poster up in _Dublin _is going to help to be honest.


That same thought struck me too, but then again - she has to be somewhere. She is as likely to be in Dublin as anywhere else, I guess.


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## liteweight (29 May 2007)

Tesco in Merrion Centre already have a number of posters stuck up around the place. It can't do any harm.


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## june (29 May 2007)

I suppose if people on this site had contacts in other countries they could download the poster and forward it on. That might help too. Perhaps the overseas foreign property department??
I think the one with the reward money is more likely to attract the eye.

 I'm surprised Madeleine has not been found by now. It really is heart-breaking to watch that family day after day trying to get on with things.
They threatened legal action to get the last description of a suspect released. Gordon Brown intervened according to several British papers. ( Times, Guardian)


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## CGorman (3 Jun 2007)

ang1170 said:


> I'd say it all depends on the demeanour of the father: if he didn't look particularly bothered when he eventually emererged, then I'd agree: your dead right.



As I said in my first post the father had clearly been playing tennis for some time, a considerable distance from the child and certainly out of his line of sight. When he emerged he didnt seem  bothered at all in the slightest despite the child being obviously distraught.


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## ang1170 (3 Jun 2007)

CGorman said:


> As I said in my first post the father had clearly been playing tennis for some time, a considerable distance from the child and certainly out of his line of sight. When he emerged he didnt seem bothered at all in the slightest despite the child being obviously distraught.


 
As I said, if that's the case, you're dead right.


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## z108 (5 Jun 2007)

ClubMan said:


> I very much doubt that sticking the poster up in _Dublin _is going to help to be honest.




Theres a poster of Maddy on a boutique window in Dame street.

I think even if shes not here, if it raises awareness at home about the safety of our children it will be worth it.


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## gramlab (12 Jun 2007)

Just back from my holiday and although there was some talk about the whole thing, it doesn't seem to be occupying everyones time too much. Lots of posters around., some with children who have been missing for a long time.

Only extra security I noticed was passport control while leaving. Anybody with a young child was sent to the same queue where the guy studied the pasports more carefully than usual.


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## ClubMan (12 Jun 2007)

sign said:


> Theres a poster of Maddy on a boutique window in Dame street.


There's one in _Fresh, Smithfield_. Seems a bit pointless to me to be honest.


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