# DAFT:Rents increase for 1st time in 2 years



## Knuttell (16 Feb 2010)

Rents have stopped falling and are starting to increase according to the DAFT rental report released today.

Print off a copy of the report and hand it to your tenant next time they come looking for a reduction...that should soften their cough.


http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-2064763.html

[broken link removed]


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## noel_c (16 Feb 2010)

Knuttell said:


> Rents have stopped falling and are starting to increase according to the DAFT rental report released today.
> 
> Print off a copy of the report and hand it to your tenant next time they come looking for a reduction...that should soften their cough.


A little bit premature? Rents increased by 1% during *one month* after a 15% drop last year. This is at a time that is traditionally busy in the rental market.

Instead of reading the soundbytes in the news today people should read the full report.


> The interaction of falling incomes, rising interest rates, higher  unemployment and emigration could break in any number of directions for  the rental market - most of them not good.


Also worth reading is the blog by Daft's analyst Ronan Lyons. Reality looks far less black and white than the snippets the newspapers like to print.

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2010/02/16/stop-the-press-rents-go-up-in-january/


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## Knuttell (16 Feb 2010)

noel_c said:


> A little bit premature?



Not at all Noel,at the first sign of rent drops in 2008 DAFT report,I had tenants ringing me up looking for a decrease in their rents despite being in the early stage of a first lease....it cuts both ways,just because some people may not like what the current DAFT report presents,paint it any way you like,they were quite happy to quote me (ad nauseum) tracts from previous reports while demanding a decrease.


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## Fiskar (16 Feb 2010)

Have to agree with Knuttell, tenants are very quick to call you and insist you renegotiate rent, hopefully this will keep them quiet for while !


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## Buddyg (16 Feb 2010)

Sorry lads, rents will be decreasing for a long while yet. You can show tenants reorts all you like, if they see better value near them then you will be dropping your rent or losing tenants.


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## Chocks away (17 Feb 2010)

Oversupply will see further drops. Tenants have become far more choosy. Old fashioned landlords with dingy properties will be the worst hit.


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## Bronte (17 Feb 2010)

Strange I never had any tenant quote me DAFT reports. Surely landlords aren't going to go to their tenant's to demand a 1% increase. My experience is that my rents have decreased (slightly, less than 10%) but they decreased last year only. I actually had anticipated more of a drop and more tenant's asking but our pricing must be ok so have never had the DAFT drops. Also noticed that many of the foreign workers have been going home and that a lot more people are on the dole and looking for rent allowance. 

This 1% could be down to people moving in January, a traditionally time for this as is September (students) causing some kind of blip. Rent's are not rising and will come down more this year especially as more and more of the foreign workers prsi dole payments come to an end and also when indigenous workers prsi dole payments end and they head off into the blue yonder - personal prediction. Location, quality accommodation will be key then.  Oversupply in Leitrim will not bother some of us landlords but it may do for those in commuter towns and outlying suberbs when they have to compete with city properties.


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## Bronte (17 Feb 2010)

Knuttell said:


> Print off a copy of the report and hand it to your tenant next time they come looking for a reduction...that should soften their cough.


 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but you speak about tenants like they were the enemy and thereby you give other landlords a bad name.


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## Howitzer (17 Feb 2010)

That report shows rents rose 1% in January bringing the yoy fall to -12% (by my brief reading of the figures). If you're renewing a lease surely it's the yoy figure that matters?  
Unless you change the terms of your leases on a monthly basis in reponse to every media report the figure that matters is the change since the lease was last signed.


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## Knuttell (17 Feb 2010)

Chocks away said:


> Oversupply will see further drops. will be the



Not according to Daftwatch,it shows a dramatic fall off in the number of properties to rent in Dublin for the first time in 24 months...a coincidence?Seasonal fall off?

I think not chocs,old sport.

[broken link removed]


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## Buddyg (17 Feb 2010)

Knuttell said:


> Not according to Daftwatch,it shows a dramatic fall off in the number of properties to rent in Dublin for the first time in 24 months...a coincidence?Seasonal fall off?
> 
> I think not chocs,old sport.
> 
> [broken link removed]



Ha, wishful thinking. There are still about 3 times as much properties for rent than a few years back and more than that nationally. 

On top of that you have these blocks of 300 unsold apartments everywhere that are not being sold but are just being rented by the developers/banks. You won't see 300 Daft ads for these places though, just a few.


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## Knuttell (17 Feb 2010)

Buddyg said:


> There are still about 3 times as much properties for rent than a few years back and more than that nationally.



Daftwatch only started monitoring rentals and sales from late 2006 onward,plus DAFT as a property website grew hugely in these years,ergo more properties were captured in this rough graph.

Also in that time there was a massive increase of properties that were previously for sale PPRs that were lumped onto the rental market,the housing market is staring to move sluggishly at the FTB end again and these houses are now being sold.

There are a hell of a lot very shabby properties sub 1k per month,that even in the good times would be hard to shift and are now just sitting there for ages as the Landlord holds out stubbornly for tiger rents...

My point is simple enough,the amt of properties for rent has fallen,rents are starting to stabilise,if a property is priced for the market,well presented and central,it will rent fast...the days of tenants looking for reductions mid lease,is in my opinion over.


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## Fiskar (17 Feb 2010)

Knuttell said:


> Daftwatch only started monitoring rentals and
> 
> My point is simple enough,the amt of properties for rent has fallen,rents are starting to stabilise,if a property is priced for the market,well presented and central,it will rent fast...the days of tenants looking for reductions mid lease,is in my opinion over.


 
Agree with your last point, which is why my rental turned around in three days last week. If the rent is right, the property clean and located in a quiet estate then there should be no problem.


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## Buddyg (17 Feb 2010)

The days of tenants getting rent reductions has only really begun.

Every week the pool of waged tenants is falling hugely. There are 300k empty houses out there, what happens when these start hitting the rental market?

How many of this years graduates have jobs? How many are going abroad?

Nama and rent allowance are the only thing stopping rents halving in the next year.


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## Knuttell (17 Feb 2010)

Buddyg said:


> Every week the pool of waged tenants is falling hugely. There are 300k empty houses out there, what happens when these start hitting the rental market?



The 300k will be dramatically reduced in the next few years as a lot of ghost estates are torn down,make no mistake this will happen.
Waged tenants or S/W tenants as long as the rent is paid and property cared for,I aint fussy Buddy.


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## noel_c (17 Feb 2010)

Knuttell said:


> The 300k will be dramatically reduced in the next few years as a lot of ghost estates are torn down,make no mistake this will happen.


Since you seem to have an interest in Dublin, do you think the 20,000 homes in Dublin waiting to be taken over by NAMA will be torn down? Do you think banks will start to lend so that buyers will hoover them up? Or do you think it's possible the government will feed small landlords to the wolves and flood the market with the properties to get some kind of return for the prices NAMA will pay?

[broken link removed]



Knuttell said:


> Waged tenants or S/W tenants as long as the rent is paid and property cared for,I aint fussy Buddy.


Presumably you're assuming that rent allowance will stay at current levels while our deficit grows.

Aside from this I concur with Bronte. If you take such a jaundiced  adversarial attitude in your dealings with your tenants, you shoudn't be surprised if you get treated in the same way in return. It cuts  both ways etc. Honestly this kind of confrontational approach gives decent landlords a bad name.


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## Buddyg (17 Feb 2010)

The cost of a good tenant leaving is fairly large. Empty house for at least a week, ptrb fee , advertising costs and all the work of vetting and showing new tenants. And then the worry of having them actually pay.

If you start waving your 1% daft reports at tenants you could be in for quite a land.


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## Knuttell (17 Feb 2010)

noel_c said:


> Aside from this I concur with Bronte. If you take such a jaundiced  adversarial attitude in your dealings with your tenants, you shoudn't be surprised if you get treated in the same way in return. It cuts  both ways etc. Honestly this kind of confrontational approach gives decent landlords a bad name.



Merely arguing a case or a point of view,hardly confrontational or adversarial Noel.


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## bugler (23 Feb 2010)

> Merely arguing a case or a point of view,hardly confrontational or  adversarial Noel.


You come across as embittered, intentional or not. You're under no obligation to lower, nor of course have any entitlement to raise, rents during a lease. If after that if you resent negotiation maybe being a landlord isn't quite suited to you. 

Also, might I be the first to point out that these are "*asking* rents", not simply "rents" or "achieved rents". We should be used to this opacity, of course, living in Ireland. But a one percent increase over a one month period when we don't even have the actual figure for what we're supposed to measure is hardly indicative of a trend. I'll certainly be waiting until the end of Q1 before making any pronouncements.


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## dmos87 (23 Feb 2010)

As far as I can see it goes both ways - If a good tenant cannot afford the rent due to job loss, etc. then a good landlord will come to an agreement with the tenant. 

My salary was cut 20% and I also lost a days work at one stage and my landlord recognised he had good tenants who kept the house in excellent condition (v. houseproud), were good neighbours and quiet tenants and he wanted to keep us there. Our rent covers his mortgage plus a little extra, and we can afford it. Everyone wins. 

This whole Landlords vs. Tenants debacle is ridiculous. If both are understanding and willing to come to an agreement it can work out well. However I do have to input my 2 cents and mention that I believe rent will have to reduce further this year and not rise - the level of unemployment is still rising in this country and we have very little job prospects. I believe if a Landlords mortgage is being covered by rent payments then they should be thanking their lucky stars they dont have an empty house!!


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## bugler (23 Feb 2010)

I agree a collaborative approach works far better for both parties rather than an overly adversarial one. The trouble comes when the landlord or tenant gets ideas of entitlement. You mention covering the mortgage...this is an irrelevance really. 

The market does not care if you even have a mortgage, much less if the repayments went up, or if you are forced to make up the shortfall between rent and mortgage each month. A landlord who uses his mortgage repayments as a barometer of the rent he should be asking is using flawed logic. The market does not take his repayments into account. Likewise, a tenant who uses his income as a barometer of what he should pay in rent for a certain property may well find there's a huge disparity between what he can pay and what the property can be let for. 

Due to the prices charged for properties in the last few years many landlords are saddled with large mortgages for buy-to-lets that may not be paying their way. While it may be a natural reaction to try and pass this on to the tenant (at least here), it is not possible to do so unless the real market factors favour this also.


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## Hans (24 Feb 2010)

dmos87 said:


> As far as I can see it goes both ways - If a good tenant cannot afford the rent due to job loss, etc. then a good landlord will come to an agreement with the tenant.
> 
> My salary was cut 20% and I also lost a days work at one stage and my landlord recognised he had good tenants who kept the house in excellent condition (v. houseproud), were good neighbours and quiet tenants and he wanted to keep us there. Our rent covers his mortgage plus a little extra, and we can afford it. Everyone wins.
> 
> This whole Landlords vs. Tenants debacle is ridiculous. If both are understanding and willing to come to an agreement it can work out well. However I do have to input my 2 cents and mention that I believe rent will have to reduce further this year and not rise - the level of unemployment is still rising in this country and we have very little job prospects. I believe if a Landlords mortgage is being covered by rent payments then they should be thanking their lucky stars they dont have an empty house!!




I think you have hit the nail in the head as a landlord I am looking for a good tenant who respects my property and pays their rent I'm not here to screw them and treat them with contempt as is coming across in some of these posts as you say I can't see rents rising significantly in the near future just hopefully we can get tenants and not have empty houses. It's all very well looking at daft reports but in my experience the asking price is not what you get people are negotiating before they accept a property and 'good luck to them' is what I say. 

I have one girl renting from me for 6 years and she is paying less now than when she moved in but she looks after the place so well the upkeep of the property has cost me nothing in that time and in general most of my tenants are like that I believe in this business you have to treat it as more than a business but also realise you are dealing with people.


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## canicemcavoy (24 Feb 2010)

> I think you have hit the nail in the head as a landlord I am looking for a good tenant who respects my property and pays their rent I'm not here to screw them and treat them with contempt as is coming across in some of these posts as you say I can't see rents rising significantly in the near future just hopefully we can get tenants and not have empty houses.


 
Maybe I'm unlucky, but I've heard that talk from my last 3 landlords. Who then turned around and screwed me.

(My previous landlord, in what I have to admit is low even by such standards, told me he wasn't going to raise my rent, then 3 days before the lease was up - and knowing that I was spending most of my time in the hospice with my dying father - informed me that he'd actually mistakenly though I was paying more than I was and therefore had decided to put my rent up by €100).


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## Hans (24 Feb 2010)

In todays market why would you put up with that I would call his bluff and tell him you cant afford it and going to move out and find somewhere else - if you are a good tenant he is a fool to lose you.


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## canicemcavoy (24 Feb 2010)

Hans said:


> In todays market why would you put up with that I would call his bluff and tell him you cant afford it and going to move out and find somewhere else - if you are a good tenant he is a fool to lose you.


 
If that's directed to me; oh, as mentioned, he's very much a former landlord, and I moved out after that lease was up. Needless to say, took me about 3 months to get my deposit back.


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## Bronte (25 Feb 2010)

That's terrible behaviour by your ex landlord Caincemavoy.  But we're not all like that, I've never raised my rents for sitting tenant's and the deposit is paid back the day they leave.  I've even paid back a deposit to a tenant who was in arrears, left the house in disrepair and sued me.


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## Knuttell (25 Feb 2010)

> But we're not all like that,  I've even paid back a deposit to a tenant who was in arrears, left the house in disrepair and sued me.



Frankly I am astonished at the above statement,between having to call out an electrician to hook up a cable from a DVD player to a TV and returning deposits to obvious scumbags and probably writing them a glowing reference.. I am surprised you managed to acquire any property in the first place.

This is a business for me,its how I make my living,end of the month,pound shilling and pence calculations,the last few years have been tough with reluctant and amateur LLs like your self,but I keep my head above water,maintaining my properties,treating tenants in a friendly if businesslike manner and  by treating it purely as a business.

For the record,I find it laughable you looking down your nose at a proper Landlord who has been making this his living for the last 20 years,implying I am giving all LLs a bad name,when you have not sense to seek rightful redress in the form of a deposit retention from someone who has with held rent damaged your property and sued you????  and is on a forum boasting about it???


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## Bronte (25 Feb 2010)

You don't live in the real world Knuttell.  Sometimes it pays to get rid of tenants.  I've never written a reference for a tenant good or bad.  References are worth zero.  


I've been a landlord many years and I thought the boom years were the easiest so maybe I'm doing something right.  I don't know what you're attacking me for.  I do not in any way look down my nose at you.  I was just surprised at your glee in the rents going up by such a tiny amount.    I think times are getting tougher now with reduced rents and not having such a choice of tenants and everybody being on social welfare.  

My point about the DVD player is not about hooking up a cable, it was a technical issue of a sound system.  I hold my hands up on this.  I refuse to have anything to do with remotes, TV's and DVD players.  I can put furniture together, renovate property, do gardens but I draw the line at technology.  And cars.


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## Howitzer (11 Mar 2010)

It's not comparing like with like, but the latest [broken link removed] show rents resuming their downward trend.



> In the month, price increases were recorded for mortgage interest
> (+3.0%), materials for maintenance & repair of dwelling (+2.3%)
> and solid fuels (+0.1%). Price decreases were recorded for natural
> gas (-7.3%), liquid fuels (i.e. home heating oil) (-3.7%), *rents
> (-0.7%)* and bottled gas (-0.1%).


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## Howitzer (15 Mar 2010)

And the estate agents view:

[broken link removed]



> The combination of a tightening of supply and resilient demand has stabilised rents while highly sought properties are now achieving stronger rents than in the closing months of 2009, it said.
> This trend of stabilisation is also visible in the latest CSO data on privately owed rents which reveal that while rents have fallen by 10.9pc nationwide in the twelve months to February 2010, the market has remained stable since December 2009 with rental depreciation of a modest -0.7pc in the two month period, it noted.


Amazing how the exact same statistics can be read.


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