# Our "World Class" education system



## Purple (10 Oct 2013)

According to the OECD Ireland is below average for literacy and numeracy.
We heard from Intel a year of so back that our graduates were not fit for purpose. Our tradespeople are well below the standards of their mainland European counterparts. We rank amongst the worst in the OECD for foreign language fluency.
It's one thing pulling on the green jersey and telling outsiders that we have a world-class education system and a highly educated workforce but it seems that we believe our own propaganda when the reality is that our educational outcomes, right across the board, are well below what they need to be. Until we accept reality we cannot change it. What should we do?


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## TarfHead (10 Oct 2013)

Those who make such claims have a vested interest in believing the lie.


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## Sunny (10 Oct 2013)

Stop focusing on third level education for a start. Re introduce fees and put the money into primary and secondary level. Not everyone has to go to university and not having a degree is not something to be ashamed of. Employers need to cop on as well. One of my pet hates is seeing jobs that look for candidates with degrees when they are simply not needed. Would also lead to the cutting of a lot of useless courses that are there for the universities benefit rather than industry or students. 
While we don't have to copy everything German, there are parts of their apprenticeship programmes that are worth looking at. 
IT skills should be taught in secondary level as a mainstream subject. Everyone should be able to use the basic office tools and be comfortable around computers. Basic coding could also be taught. 
Foreign languages should be prioritised. We have so many foreign students here learning English. Why not see if we can use them in some way. 
Companies should be encouraged to have greater collaboration with third level. If a company sees skill shortages, they should work with a university to design a programme that will give people these skills. 
PHD research should be properly funded with graduates encouraged to stay in the country. 
Class sizes in primary should be cut dramatically. 

Am sure there are plenty of other things.


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## Seagull (10 Oct 2013)

Any education system that spends more time on religious studies than science or maths has serious issues.


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## Purple (10 Oct 2013)

Seagull said:


> Any education system that spends more time on religious studies than science or maths has serious issues.



I know, God help us...


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## TarfHead (10 Oct 2013)

Seagull said:


> Any education system that spends more time on religious studies than science or maths has serious issues.


 
Is that true for the Irish system ? In 'my' experience (younger child in 5th class, older in 1st year), it is not.


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## Delboy (10 Oct 2013)

You can blame teaching of religion (not even widespread anymore), under funding (amongst the highest paid teachers in the OECD!) etc etc.

The simple answer is bad teachers who are protected by the system/Unions and are allowed clock up their time at the expense of children's education until they can draw down the golden pension.

What % of teachers are bad and simply not up to it? What % of teachers are just drifting, recycling the same notes each year? What % of teachers are not suitable for the job and despite being intelligent etc, but simply cannot teach/communicate?
I don't know the exact answers to that, but in the schools I attended it was pretty high


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## Sunny (10 Oct 2013)

Excellent. Problem solved Purple. That was easy. Next we should solve the problems in the health service. I am going out on a limb here but I think it is all the doctors fault.


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## T McGibney (10 Oct 2013)

Seagull said:


> Any education system that spends more time on religious studies than science or maths has serious issues.



That, my friend, is an utter fiction.

BTW the problem is much wider than the teachers. For example I was staggered to learn recently that the Leaving Cert Economics syllabus was last updated in 1969!


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## DB74 (10 Oct 2013)

Delboy said:


> What % of teachers are bad and simply not up to it? What % of teachers are just drifting, recycling the same notes each year? What % of teachers are not suitable for the job and despite being intelligent etc, but simply cannot teach/communicate?
> I don't know the exact answers to that, but in the schools I attended it was pretty high



What % of parents refuse to allow the teacher/school to discipline their children, thereby making their jobs almost impossible to do


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## Purple (10 Oct 2013)

Sunny said:


> Excellent. Problem solved Purple. That was easy. Next we should solve the problems in the health service. I am going out on a limb here but I think it is all the doctors fault.



Yes, concentrate on a part of the problem and the rest of it will just go away. 

I do think the standard of teaching isn't what it should be but I don't know what the answer to that problem is. What frustrates me is that the teachers are the experts and whenever this topic is discussed they get very defensive. The are the ones who should be coming forward with the answers. I think a large part of the reason for that is that their professional body (which should push for high standards) is much weaker than their unions (which will try to keep standards as low as possible). 
Parents are a major part of the problem, probably the largest part. The curriculums for the various subjects as well as teaching methods also seem to be very out of date. 

I do agree that early education id the key; the dye is cast for most kids by the time they are 7 or 8. There's very little chance of them catching up later if they fall behind by that age.

We have a major problem. Those in the middle of our education system acknowledging that the problem exists is the first step.


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## delgirl (10 Oct 2013)

Seagull said:


> Any education system that spends more time on religious studies than science or maths has serious issues.


 



T McGibney said:


> That, my friend, is an utter fiction.


Not so in Irish Primary Schools according to the OECD Education at a Glance Report published in 2012.


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## T McGibney (10 Oct 2013)

delgirl said:


> Not so in Irish Primary Schools according to the OECD Education at a Glance Report published in 2012.



That's a very selective article and headline. It's undisputed that there are more religion classes than science classes in primary schools, however that's because 1) science isn't a core subject at primary level; 2) most primary schools have little or no science facilities; 3) whatever little science is taught is at higher class levels, 5th & 6th classes, and certainly not to the younger kids especially those at 1st Communion stage, who will be receiving dedicated religion classes in school in preparation for the sacrament.

People are entitled to question the appropriateness or otherwise of religious education in the classroom but it's patent nonsense to suggest that 6-8 year olds are being denied education in chemistry, physics and biology as a result of it.


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## TarfHead (10 Oct 2013)

T McGibney said:


> People are entitled to question the appropriateness or otherwise of religious education in the classroom but it's patent nonsense to suggest that 6-8 year olds are being denied education in chemistry, physics and biology as a result of it.


 
And as for the school that is prioritising One Direction over religion  ?


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## Purple (10 Oct 2013)

T McGibney said:


> That's a very selective article and headline. It's undisputed that there are more religion classes than science classes in primary schools, however that's because 1) science isn't a core subject at primary level; 2) most primary schools have little or no science facilities; 3) whatever little science is taught is at higher class levels, 5th & 6th classes, and certainly not to the younger kids especially those at 1st Communion stage, who will be receiving dedicated religion classes in school in preparation for the sacrament.
> 
> People are entitled to question the appropriateness or otherwise of religious education in the classroom but it's patent nonsense to suggest that 6-8 year olds are being denied education in chemistry, physics and biology as a result of it.



I don't think anyone is suggesting that 8 year olds should know Newton's 3 laws of motion or the difference between organic and inorganic chemistry but nature studies and experiments showing basic stuff about how the world around us works can give kids an interest in science that they can carry with them for the rest of their lives.
It's better than hearing about Sampson opening a can of whoop-ass on the Philistines and killing 30 of them with the jawbone of an ass or God killing Lots wife simply for looking over her shoulder (as he simultaneously killed every man woman and child in the city of Sodom for not being righteous enough)... or do they leave those bits out in primary school nowadays?


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## Purple (10 Oct 2013)

TarfHead said:


> And as for the school that is prioritising One Direction over religion  ?



What's religion got to do with first communion for most people?


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## The_Banker (10 Oct 2013)

From my nephews and nieces in primary school I discovered that 30 minutes a day is spend studying religion. Thats 2.5 hours a week. Its more than PE.
Also, in communion class and confirmation class that increases as preparation is required. 

Also, I dont see any reason why a foreign language like German, French or Spanish isnt taught to kids in primary schools. It would be more worthwhile to them than Irish. That may sound like treason to some but I certainly would prefer my kids to learn a foreign language rather Irish. Obviously that would require retraining for teachers which would mean union issues.
Learning a foreign language as 12/13 when they enter secondary school is too late and puts them at a disadvantage to students in other countries. 

Either way, our education system is far from world class.


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## T McGibney (10 Oct 2013)

There is nothing much "world class" in Ireland. 

Except perhaps our economic crisis.


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## Delboy (10 Oct 2013)

The_Banker said:


> From my nephews and nieces in primary school I discovered that 30 minutes a day is spend studying religion. Thats 2.5 hours a week. Its more than PE.
> Also, in communion class and confirmation class that increases as preparation is required.
> 
> Also, I dont see any reason why a foreign language like German, French or Spanish isnt taught to kids in primary schools. It would be more worthwhile to them than Irish. That may sound like treason to some but I certainly would prefer my kids to learn a foreign language rather Irish. Obviously that would require retraining for teachers which would mean union issues.
> ...



We all learned Irish for 10+ years and how many of us can speak it now! So I don't see why throwing another language into the mix without changing the system would lead to an outcome any different.


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## Purple (11 Oct 2013)

T McGibney said:


> There is nothing much "world class" in Ireland.
> 
> Except perhaps our economic crisis.



 True


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## orka (11 Oct 2013)

Delboy said:


> We all learned Irish for 10+ years and how many of us can speak it now! So I don't see why throwing another language into the mix without changing the system would lead to an outcome any different.


I learnt Irish for 14 years, French and German for 6 years; left school 25+ years ago but you could abandon me in deepest France or Germany and I could communicate my way out whereas I honestly don't think I could hold any kind of converstaion in Irish.  I don't know whether it's because it's compulsory or because of the way it's taught or maybe it's just a way harder language but children seem to take to other languages much more easily than Irish.  I would much prefer to see children learn French/German/Spanish as a core subject and learn Irish as part of an 'Irish culture and language' subject.


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## Rovers1901 (11 Oct 2013)

orka said:


> I learnt Irish for 14 years, French and German for 6 years; left school 25+ years ago but you could abandon me in deepest France or Germany and I could communicate my way out whereas I honestly don't think I could hold any kind of converstaion in Irish.  I don't know whether it's because it's compulsory or because of the way it's taught or maybe it's just a way harder language but children seem to take to other languages much more easily than Irish.  I would much prefer to see children learn French/German/Spanish as a core subject and learn Irish as part of an 'Irish culture and language' subject.



Slightly off-topic, but is that because since leaving school 25+ years you have kept up an interest in both French and german wheras you have no interest in Irish and therefore have 'isolated' yourself from it over a similar period?

My German would be a lot better than my Irish (I left school around 16/17 years ago) but I did it in college, worked there in summers and have generally kept it up. My comprehension of written Irish is still OK and I can understand Nuacht reasonably well, but having never really had a 'normal' conversation in irish I have virtually zero ability in spoken Irish. 

Almost all people I know repeat the mantra of 14 years of Irish and I can't speak a word but virtually all of those same people can't hold a conversation in whatever other language they did in school either. The only ones who can are those who have kept it up in some form - watching euronews back in the 90s / buying newspapers in easons / holidays or these days watching TV through the internet.

This subtle idea that's sometimes floated that we're a nation of linguists being held back by Irish is stretching it to me.


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## orka (11 Oct 2013)

Rovers1901 said:


> Slightly off-topic, but is that because since leaving school 25+ years you have kept up an interest in both French and german wheras you have no interest in Irish and therefore have 'isolated' yourself from it over a similar period?...
> Almost all people I know repeat the mantra of 14 years of Irish and I can't speak a word but virtually all of those same people can't hold a conversation in whatever other language they did in school either. ...
> This subtle idea that's sometimes floated that we're a nation of linguists being held back by Irish is stretching it to me.


If anything, I've had more exposure to Irish in seeing 3 children through school and attempting to help with homework.  Helping them with secondary school French, all the grammar etc. came flooding back whereas looking at Irish grammar is like looking into a black hole.  My Irish was always way weaker - I just never clicked with the way it was taught.  

I do agree with you though - it's not Irish that's holding back other languages - I think languages are generally unpopular with kids because they are seen as 'hard' and requiring effort.


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## TarfHead (11 Oct 2013)

Rovers1901 said:


> Slightly off-topic, but is that because since leaving school 25+ years you have kept up an interest in both French and german wheras you have no interest in Irish and therefore have 'isolated' yourself from it over a similar period?


 
My experience is similar, loved French at secondary school and hated Irish. I attribute my attitude to specific teachers. In 4th year we had a dour individual teaching us Irish who spent a whole year getting is to transcribe grammar off the blackboard. He was, AFAIK, from Galway. Going home and seeking help with homework from a father with Kerry Irish and and a mother with Donegal Irish just added to the frustration.

In contrast, the French teacher had a more lively personality and encouraged us to speak the language. 

The outcome was a B honour in French in the Leaving Cert and a D pass in Irish (Ordinary level).


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## johnwilliams (11 Oct 2013)

ok I am confused ,purples quote "our graduates were not fit for purpose. Our tradespeople are well below the standards of their mainland European counterparts. We rank amongst the worst in the OECD for foreign language fluency" .
the press briefings that the multinationals  the ida are currently bringing in to the country are all saying how great we are at the above or is it really something else that's bringing them in (grants tax relief etc)?


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## T McGibney (12 Oct 2013)

johnwilliams said:


> ok I am confused ,purples quote "our graduates were not fit for purpose. Our tradespeople are well below the standards of their mainland European counterparts. We rank amongst the worst in the OECD for foreign language fluency" .
> the press briefings that the multinationals  the ida are currently bringing in to the country are all saying how great we are at the above or is it really something else that's bringing them in (grants tax relief etc)?



Our collective fluency in English, and our membership of the Eurozone, are key factors in our favour.


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## blueband (13 Oct 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Our collective fluency in English, and our membership of the Eurozone, are key factors in our favour.


and don't forget about our low corporation tax.......although I wonder how much longer we will have that card to play....


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## Purple (13 Oct 2013)

T McGibney said:


> Our collective fluency in English, and our membership of the Eurozone, are key factors in our favour.



Don't forget the Double Irish




johnwilliams said:


> ok I am confused ,purples quote "our graduates were not fit for purpose. Our tradespeople are well below the standards of their mainland European counterparts. We rank amongst the worst in the OECD for foreign language fluency" .
> the press briefings that the multinationals  the ida are currently bringing in to the country are all saying how great we are at the above or is it really something else that's bringing them in (grants tax relief etc)?


They are hardly going to say they are coming here because of our tax rates. Therefore they need the fig leaf of just how wonderful we are. Don't get me wrong; we have a lot to offer but so do lots of other countries. Why do we get more US inward investment than most of Asia combined?


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## Deas (14 Oct 2013)

Seagull said:


> Any education system that spends more time on religious studies than science or maths has serious issues.


 

I couldn't believe it when I heard that religion is now a subject in the junior certificate.  When I was in school, religion class was for doing your real homework from other teachers!


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## DrMoriarty (15 Oct 2013)

Purple said:


> Don't get me wrong; we have a lot to offer but so do lots of other countries. Why do we get more US inward investment than most of Asia combined?


(a) They're even dumber.
(b) They somehow "trust" us more.


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## Latrade (15 Oct 2013)

The Foreign language issue is probably a much bigger one than we currently credit. Look at the jobs in the tech industry, of which there are hundreds, and as we've sold ourselves as the EMEA base for these companies, they require fluency in second languages. Those posts go unfilled and labour has to be imported.

It's an essential second skill and should be seen as such. 

I do wonder if we expect too much of the state in terms of education. While there are issues as parents why do we delegate the whole education of our kids to the state, if we're that interested we should be involved. 

If the state school system is weak on science in the primary years, then fill that gap as a parent. My niece and nephew were always more science focussed as children, so we came up with experiments to do suitable for children and at home (bottle rockets, etc). 

It seems that parents have high hopes for their children and apply much more pressure on them being graduates, but want the state to do the work for their child (as well as every other child in the state). Of course, the parents pat themselves on the back as to how great and supportive they are for paying for grinds.

There is no solution to this from a state level, it can't be all things to all children. The state can provide a standard level of education and while that might have weaknesses, how much of the responsibility for the failure in those areas lies with the parents? 

Parents have too big a focus on results without wanting to play their part in the education of their children. To me that's where the problem lies, not the state education system.


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## Sunny (15 Oct 2013)

Because Asia doesn't offer access to the EU which is more important to American companies than any other market. Add in similar culture, Native English speakers, decent time differences, a Government that would bend over backwards for investment, politically and sociably stable etc etc. 

Of course tax is an important issue but a company like Intel won't build a multi billion euro manufacturing facility here instead of Israel because of a 12.5% tax rate. It will come down to the whole package.


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## Purple (15 Oct 2013)

Sunny said:


> Of course tax is an important issue but a company like Intel won't build a multi billion euro manufacturing facility here instead of Israel because of a 12.5% tax rate. It will come down to the whole package.



Does anyone really think Intel pays 12.5% tax here?


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## Sunny (15 Oct 2013)

Purple said:


> Does anyone really think Intel pays 12.5% tax here?



Does anyone really think any company pays the headline tax rate anywhere in the world? Ireland is no different. The gap between Ireland's headline rate and effective rate is a lot smaller than other countries. Look at the effective corporate tax rate in France.


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## Purple (15 Oct 2013)

Sunny said:


> Does anyone really think any company pays the headline tax rate anywhere in the world? Ireland is no different. The gap between Ireland's headline rate and effective rate is a lot smaller than other countries. Look at the effective corporate tax rate in France.



I agree; the CAC top 50 have an effective tax rate of less than 10%. The problem is that using the Apple model companies can pay almost no tax here.


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