# Change Name when emigrating to avoid creditors



## gone (24 Sep 2014)

Hi, I'm looking to move to Canada (have visa already) and have major debts (gaff in neg equity) to escape, payment is not an option unless I win the lotto and the bank is not willing to do even the smallest of deals so I'm thinking of changing my name.
I have zero commitments -pensions etc that would be affected besides the actual debts.
Does anybody have any experience with this-will it work?Should I do it here or over there?
Is there some sort of solicitor that would be knowledgeable on this issue?
Thanks if you can help.


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## Brendan Burgess (24 Sep 2014)

What does changing your name achieve?  You are still liable for your debts.  

I think you would be better off simply going bankrupt either here or in Canada.  This will put your debts behind you for once and for all. 

Check if going bankrupt here would affect your going to Canada.  You might need the OA's permission.

Brendan


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

I thought changing my name might render my creditors unable to locate me?
What does OA stand for?
If I go bankrupt here my visa for Canada will expire and if I go bankrupt there it.....hmmmm,I'll have to look into bankruptcy there,thanks for input.
Am looking for purely the most cost effective way to shed my debts,nothing else matters to me and I must use Canadian visa before Jan.


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## no_moolah (24 Sep 2014)

Would you consider going Bankrupt in Scotland or the UK? It's a much simpler process


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

no_moolah said:


> Would you consider going Bankrupt in Scotland or the UK? It's a much simpler process


I have to use my Canadian visa by Jan or else it expires.
I could theoretically go from there to UK in a couple of years (once I get permanent residency in Canada) and go bankrupt but it would take 15 months out of my life sitting in Uk waiting for the process to end which is time I'd rather not waste if I don't strictly have to.
Changing name might be the simplest process of all is the logic in my head.


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## no_moolah (24 Sep 2014)

The process for changing your name in this country is pretty simple. And as far as I know there is no simple way for a creditor to search the court records if they want to know if a person has changed their name. My friend used to work in the courts and told me about 2-3 years ago that there is a book with all of the details handwritten in and if a creditor wanted to search for someone they would have to go in to the court office and manually do it. Not sure if it has changed since then but if it hasn't then it should be easier to do it over here


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

Much appreciated, this is just the type of info I'm looking for.
Do you happen to know if creditors explore this route often with debtors- it sounds like they may going from what you anecdotally say?
I wonder how many people change their name here every year, can't be many.


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## T McGibney (24 Sep 2014)

gone said:


> I wonder how many people change their name here every year, can't be many.



I'd guess at least some of those who do are current or former sex offenders, terrorists or criminals. That's why I'd be very, very wary of going down that road.


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

Not really following that logic?


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## no_moolah (24 Sep 2014)

gone said:


> Much appreciated, this is just the type of info I'm looking for.
> Do you happen to know if creditors explore this route often with debtors- it sounds like they may going from what you anecdotally say?
> I wonder how many people change their name here every year, can't be many.


 
I can't imagine why they would explore this route - unless they had some information that the person had changed their name. I don't think it would occur to many creditors.


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

no_moolah said:


> I can't imagine why they would explore this route - unless they had some information that the person had changed their name. I don't think it would occur to many creditors.


Yeah I know what you mean but with databases etc it must be near impossible for a person to just vanish off the radar, so if I do it would nearly point directly to a name change, perhaps.
Maybe I'm over complicating things, maybe I should just go to Canada and forget about the debts here. I wonder are there any cases of the Irish banks being able to extend their reach to Canada.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2014)

T McGibney said:


> I'd guess at least some of those who do are current or former sex offenders, terrorists or criminals. That's why I'd be very, very wary of going down that road.


 
It is not just done for unsavory reasons.  I recall a woman changing her name to match her new partners, cannot now remember why she didn't marry him, maybe there was a waiting period for divorce.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2014)

gone said:


> have major debts (gaff in neg equity) .


 
Can you please tell us how much the major debts amount to. I cannot see a bank chasing you to Canada unless you owe millions.  They've been chasing David Drumm and Sean Dunne for multi millions for years now and not a penny so far.


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

Bronte said:


> Can you please tell us how much the major debts amount to. I cannot see a bank chasing you to Canada unless you owe millions.  They've been chasing David Drumm and Sean Dunne for multi millions for years now and not a penny so far.


250k approx.


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## Bronte (24 Sep 2014)

Do they know you are going to Canada? Contact the xpat website for Irish in Canada and find out from the Irish over there if they are being chased. I haven't heard one story other than the high profile ones of chasing to all parts of the globe. 

Why didn't you go bankrupt in Ireland?


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

Bronte said:


> Do they know you are going to Canada? Contact the xpat website for Irish in Canada and find out from the Irish over there if they are being chased. I haven't heard one story other than the high profile ones of chasing to all parts of the globe.
> 
> Why didn't you go bankrupt in Ireland?


Because I'll have to give a portion of my earning to my creditors for the next 3+ years and it would not be worth my while working if that was the case, so this route might be easier. No the bank does not know my plans.


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## 44brendan (24 Sep 2014)

This kind of action is totally unnecessary. There is no Bank or creditor going to go to the trouble of chasing you down in Canada or elsewhere if you have no substantial assets. It would not be cost effective for them and a waste of time. My day to day job involves making decisions on cases like these and unless we are talking about a defaulter with substantial assets/income we never bother chasing anyone who has emigrated. You don't need to go bankrubt unless you have plans to come back to Ireland in the next couple of years. I'd recommend talking to "New Beginnings" or a similar organisation and let them contact the Bank to advise that you have no income in the country and will agree to assist in the sale of the property provided the balance of the debt is written off. Banks are pragmatic. They have better things to do than chasing people who have nothing to offer!


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

Thanks, I would hope to have some money saved after a few years work out in Canada and it's that future savings that I'd be worried about.
I talked to New Beginnings before and they didn't want to know until repossession proceedings had started as they were so busy, maybe it's time to try them again so.
The mortgage was with ICS but it has been bought recently by Bank of Irl.
Do you think the bank will write of the balance, I know the guy from New Beginnings stated that one bank was but didn't they come out a day later and say that they weren't?
The bank has sent me numerous letters asking for voluntary repossession but as they never mentioned what would happen to the balance I ignored them.
Out of curiosity what would be classed as "substantial assets"?


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## 44brendan (24 Sep 2014)

ICS and BoI are one and the same entity. 
Essentially you will give the bank 2 choices. (1) You agree to assist in the sale process if they accept this as a full settlement of the debt (i.e. write off the balance) (2) You will not assist in the process if they refuse and state your intention to emigrate. 
If they fail to agree to the write-off they will be shooting themselves in the foot as a re-posession of the property will take years and cost them a lot of money. Make sure you let them know that you have no income and no earnings other than SW. 
Any sensible decision maker will agree with your proposal. However BoI can often take the ostrich approach and have been known to delay making decisions (The Richie Boucher "we will write off nothing approach!!).
As I said previously they have substantially more to lose than you. There is no chance that they will chase after you to Canada to get at your savings! They are currently totally swamped dealing with cases where there is some hope of recovering funds!


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

I'm worried that they will happily shoot themselves in the foot as they have been doing it since I stopped making payments 2010- surely if they were going to be pragmatic about it they would have done it already?
I think they haven't repossessed yet as they don't want to unsecure the debt which would allow someone like me (no assets or ties) to hop across to Uk and escape scott free via bankruptcy (as the debt must be unsecured to avail of bankruptcy).
Thanks for your replies.


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## 44brendan (24 Sep 2014)

> as the debt must be unsecured to avail of bankruptcy).


No this is not correct. Forget bankruptcy. In your case and given your intentions it is not necessary. 
Have a good time in Canada!!


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

Sounds good, my plan is to get an apprenticeship in Canada so it's not outside the realms of possibility that I could have 250k saved within 10+ years. They might come after me then no?


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## no_moolah (24 Sep 2014)

44brendan said:


> No this is not correct.


 
+1

I went bankrupt in the UK and my mortgage was still secured on my property here


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## 44brendan (24 Sep 2014)

> They might come after me then no?


 
No they won't. They'll have long forgotten you!!


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## mandelbrot (24 Sep 2014)

Stopped making payments in 2006, at the peak of the boom... when there was no such thing as unemployment..!! Go off and enjoy Canada OP, we'll take care of the mess here for you!


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## fobs (24 Sep 2014)

A relative of mine is currently in Canada and is in the process of selling his house in Ireland and hoping to get the residual debt written off. Has no other assets and does not intend to return to live in Ireland for a numver of years.

Mortgage is with BOI for approx 220 outstanding and sale has been agreed for 150. Up until point of sale agreed all rents were handed over to the bank but tenent moved out once for sale sign went up.

Relative had nominated another person to deal with his affairs on his behalf. This person would have more contacts and as not emotionally involved better at negotiating with the bank.

Originally BOI refused to allow the sale of the house but have lately agreed to the sale. The residual debt being written off is still not totally settled but ongoing negotiations are taking place. House was maintained to a high standard by family to help achieve this sale price.

My relative had stayed in constand contact with the bank and been open and honest with them but felt things moved on once a third party was nominated to deal with the matter.


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

mandelbrot said:


> Stopped making payments in 2006, at the peak of the boom... when there was no such thing as unemployment..!! Go off and enjoy Canada OP, we'll take care of the mess here for you!


Sorry I was incorrect, 2008 is when I lost my job  in construction.


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

fobs nice info re your relative thanks. I can't help but think that he'll be kept on the hook for such a little amount though.


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## gone (24 Sep 2014)

44brendan don't they have computers to help them remember?I wonder when a bad debt finally gets written off.


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## Jim2007 (24 Sep 2014)

gone said:


> Not really following that logic?



If you change your name, I think you will find that your visa is invalid because you are travelling under a new name.  Furthermore anyone who changes their name and applies for permanent residence status in Canada will be looked at very closely because they will assume you got something nasty to hide.

In any case it is unlikely that your creditors will chance you to Canada even if they do know where you are..


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## Delboy (24 Sep 2014)

Have you paid anything at all since 2008...6 years ago?????


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## TommyB (24 Sep 2014)

I've worked quite a bit in the last few years in debt recovery PI. Basically helping banks or collection agencies locate defaulters and find evidence of assets. I was approached by a newer agency to work for them full time but I declined. Their business model is very interesting. They are buying debts at rock bottom prices for people with zero assets and those who have emigrated some distance. They are going to sit on these cases for many years, quietly at first till the persons have started to build a life again. They have solicitors in different big economies advising them on local debt recovery laws so they know what to to and how long they can recover a debt. Some people are due some very nasty surprises in the next ten years for sure.

You might think a name change will help you and it probably will for some situations. But trust me, if somebody wants to find you, they will. PIs have a suite of tools and dirty tricks to find people. Facebook, forums, phone numbers, relatives, ebay, forums, donedeal. Social engineering. I know your email/twitter but I don't know what country you are in. I send you a link dressed up in some believable context.
(MOD - link removed)
Boom have your IP. Most likely have your workplace or at least your internet company. The going rate is about 100 quid to get an address from these companies on the black market. Nearly every telecoms company in the world has low level staff offering this service on the dark web for a fee. 

You can leave but do you really want to be in a situation that you hope you don't make a sucecss of it because it can all be taken away, plus interest and fees.


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## sebadoh (24 Sep 2014)

gone said:


> Sorry I was incorrect, 2008 is when I lost my job  in construction.


Its Shocking that some-one can be allowed to live in a house for 6 full years without paying a mortgage and not have the house repossessed. Why wont those in power in Ireland tackle people like this and make them lose the assets they either wont or cant pay for
Ireland must be unique in making repossessions so difficult


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## Bronte (25 Sep 2014)

gone said:


> Sorry I was incorrect, 2008 is when I lost my job in construction.


 
My goodness, 7 years on and no solution. And you've lived there mortgage and rent free for so long.  

And the banking enquiry's first main focus is on .... newspaper supplements on property. 

While they're at it they should investigate all the hype I've been reading over the last 12 months.


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## Bronte (25 Sep 2014)

TommyB said:


> . They are going to sit on these cases for many years, quietly at first till the persons have started to build a life again.


 
Same thing happened to people in the UK after the eighties crash of Jingle mail. Banks came back after them when they were back on their feet, but just before the statute of limitations.  (Your link is not working).


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## TommyB (25 Sep 2014)

Ha, the link works perfectly. It emails me every IP address that clicks it and they are none the wiser. Just giving the OP a flavour of what to expect.


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## gone (28 Sep 2014)

Nice info Tommy, do you have any idea how it works in practice - can they use local law (Canadian) to recover the debt down the line?


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## gone (28 Sep 2014)

TommyB said:


> I've worked quite a bit in the last few years in debt recovery PI. Basically helping banks or collection agencies locate defaulters and find evidence of assets. I was approached by a newer agency to work for them full time but I declined. Their business model is very interesting. They are buying debts at rock bottom prices for people with zero assets and those who have emigrated some distance. They are going to sit on these cases for many years, quietly at first till the persons have started to build a life again. They have solicitors in different big economies advising them on local debt recovery laws so they know what to to and how long they can recover a debt. Some people are due some very nasty surprises in the next ten years for sure.
> 
> You might think a name change will help you and it probably will for some situations. But trust me, if somebody wants to find you, they will. PIs have a suite of tools and dirty tricks to find people. Facebook, forums, phone numbers, relatives, ebay, forums, donedeal. Social engineering. I know your email/twitter but I don't know what country you are in. I send you a link dressed up in some believable context.
> (MOD - link removed)
> ...


Nice info Tommy, do you have any idea how it works in practice - can  they use local law (Canadian) to recover the debt down the line?


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## gone (28 Sep 2014)

Delboy said:


> Have you paid anything at all since 2008...6 years ago?????


I paid tiny nominal amounts here and there from my dole but nothing for about the last 2 years as I've been saving to go to Canada.


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## gone (28 Sep 2014)

Jim2007 said:


> In any case it is unlikely that your creditors will chance you to Canada even if they do know where you are..


Do you happen to have first hand knowledge of this by any chance, all I seem to be seeing is anecdotal evidence.


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## moneybox (28 Sep 2014)

TommyB said:


> Ha, the link works perfectly. It emails me every IP address that clicks it and they are none the wiser. Just giving the OP a flavour of what to expect.


 

Ha, I knew you were going to do that


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## gone (29 Sep 2014)

TommyB said:


> I've worked quite a bit in the last few years in debt recovery PI. Basically helping banks or collection agencies locate defaulters and find evidence of assets. I was approached by a newer agency to work for them full time but I declined. Their business model is very interesting. They are buying debts at rock bottom prices for people with zero assets and those who have emigrated some distance. They are going to sit on these cases for many years, quietly at first till the persons have started to build a life again. They have solicitors in different big economies advising them on local debt recovery laws so they know what to to and how long they can recover a debt. Some people are due some very nasty surprises in the next ten years for sure.
> 
> You might think a name change will help you and it probably will for some situations. But trust me, if somebody wants to find you, they will. PIs have a suite of tools and dirty tricks to find people. Facebook, forums, phone numbers, relatives, ebay, forums, donedeal. Social engineering. I know your email/twitter but I don't know what country you are in. I send you a link dressed up in some believable context.
> (MOD - link removed)
> ...


Tommy I can't help but notice from your post history that you're very  much in the "suck it up and pay your debts regardless of your ability to  pay" camp, you even go so far to say it's the "honourable" thing to do,  are you sure you working in debt recovery as a PI isn't a figment of  your imagination and just a rouse to implement your agenda? Cause when I  then actually look at the methods you describe for finding people I  have to say they look useless - websites, ph numbers and relatives? If  these are the methods used I'll happily take my chances tbh. And then  your coup de grace my IP adddress? So what, that tells you nothing  except my internet provider and even if you manage to get my address and  send me a demand letter I can just ignore it or move. 
Poor attempt Tommy, you're just wasting everyone's time with your nonsense.


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## Gerry Canning (30 Sep 2014)

Gone ; 

Have been watching this thread .
1. Inadvisable to change your name.
2. Advisable to tell Bank you are emigrating (you do not need to say where to)
3. At this stage agree to sign any papers necessary to effect a sale of the property.
4. Tell Bank you will assist only on the condition that residual debt is either written off or at least that you will not be pursued for it.

 (Brendan44,s viewsare good)  Do not go to Canada without getting resolution, you do not want to have niggling doubts.
I would even suggest you do whatever it takes to sell the property for the Bank , so even should a residual debt remain ,you have tried to resolve as best you can before leaving.

I would be very sure you will not be followed for any residual debt; 

Do not run away ; meet problem and if Bank are not pragmatic then at least you have tried in an honourable way. All we have is our good name!.


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## elcato (30 Sep 2014)

> If  these are the methods used I'll happily take my chances tbh. And  then  your coup de grace my IP adddress? So what, that tells you nothing   except my internet provider and even if you manage to get my address  and  send me a demand letter I can just ignore it or move.


Then why are you spending so much time on this? The advice given by Brendan44 was simple and to the point (as others have agreed). Move on.


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> Gone ;
> 
> Have been watching this thread .
> 1. Inadvisable to change your name.
> ...


Thanks for input, yeah it looks like that's the best route to follow however I'm fully expecting the bank not to play ball which could potentially create a situation down the line.
Can I ask you how you can be so sure, I take it you work in a similiar field to Brendan44?


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## mandelbrot (30 Sep 2014)

gone said:


> Sorry I was incorrect, 2008 is when I lost my job in construction.


 
So you've been living in the house for the last 6 years, but not paid a nickel to the bank?


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

elcato said:


> Then why are you spending so much time on this? The advice given by Brendan44 was simple and to the point (as others have agreed). Move on.


 Are you serious? Because the 250k I owe now could turn into 400k in 10 years time and Brendan44 (who's advice I'm very grateful for) did put the qualifier "unless we are talking about a defaulter with substantial assets/income" and who's to say I amn't a successful tradesman in 10 years time (this is my plan after all) with assets or that I won't marry some rich chick or that the bank won't change their opinions on who merits chasing? sorry if this upsets you but this is what the forum is for, you don't have to read the thread if you don't want to.


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

mandelbrot said:


> So you've been living in the house for the last 6 years, but not paid a nickel to the bank?


 I answered this question earlier on I think, nominal bits and pieces from my dole but nothing since I figured I needed to emigrate.


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

I organised a face to face with them (my idea) in their offices about 2 years ago but they cancelled at the last minute and never sought another meeting.


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## elcato (30 Sep 2014)

I am not in the slightest bit upset but I'm just wondering what you agenda is. Have you a problem with paying your debts if you can afford them in 10 years time ? It seems to me you are here to justify running away and leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab and at the same time never have to actually pay back anything should you be in a position to do so. What's wrong with having married a rich chick (sic) and got loads of money to not actually pay what you owe ? Is it so wrong of the debtors to actually ask for their money back ?


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## mandelbrot (30 Sep 2014)

gone said:


> Are you serious? Because the 250k I owe now could turn into 400k in 10 years time and Brendan44 (who's advice I'm very grateful for) did put the qualifier "unless we are talking about a defaulter with substantial assets/income" and who's to say I amn't a successful tradesman in 10 years time (this is my plan after all) with assets or that I won't marry some rich chick or that the bank won't change their opinions on who merits chasing? sorry if this upsets you but this is what the forum is for, you don't have to read the thread if you don't want to.


 
But your solution, to run away and change your name, doesn't give you any absolute assurance that the scenario you set out above.



gone said:


> I answered this question earlier on I think, nominal bits and pieces from my dole but nothing since I figured I needed to emigrate.


So why not go bankrupt either here or in the UK then, like so many others have done?

Seems to me like you want to have things every way: you wanted the loan to buy the house and got it, you've had the house throughout the period you couldn't and didn't pay for it, you now want to walk away from it by hiding instead of dealing with the situation through the insolvency options available to you.

It's not that I don't sympathise with your situation, but your idea for the best / most convenient way to deal with it, to hide, seems a bit short sighted.


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## Gerry Canning (30 Sep 2014)

The Bank may huff and puff but with you going away there is little they can do.
Be sure to put all proposals in writing and be sure to keep copies.
If Bank decide to play hard ball then away you go ! you have made the best offer you can in present circumstances.

In answer to my certainty , worked in finance 30+ years , sadly finding too many Bankers to be shall we say (worth watching)! They have given my industry and too many Bank officials a poor name.


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

Gerry Canning said:


> The Bank may huff and puff but with you going away there is little they can do.
> Be sure to put all proposals in writing and be sure to keep copies.
> If Bank decide to play hard ball then away you go ! you have made the best offer you can in present circumstances.
> 
> In answer to my certainty , worked in finance 30+ years , sadly finding too many Bankers to be shall we say (worth watching)! They have given my industry and too many Bank officials a poor name.


Much appreciated.


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## Bronte (30 Sep 2014)

elcato said:


> It seems to me you are here to justify running away and leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab and at the same time never have to actually pay back anything should you be in a position to do so. What's
> 
> Is it so wrong of the debtors to actually ask for their money back ?


 
What you state is a legitimate debate for another thread. And it's only a debate if you don't agree with letting people who are bankrupt go bankrupt. 

The OP is quite clearly stressed, moving to Canada is a very big deal, they want to get all their ducks in a row, which is perfectly understandable. I cannot imagine it's been pleasant to have lived since 2008 with the constant stress of this bearing on one's mind. So we must try to be understanding. 

And of course there are many up to all sorts, diddlign the banks, but soemone who is taking the drastic step of emmigrating so far away, wouldn't be someone I would consider up to creative accounting unless there were something in the posts to signify others. 

The question is legitimite.  2 people working in this area have tried to help, one working in a bank/debt, and one an advistor to help those in debt.  What is stark is that nobody is 100% sure the bank won't chase in the future.


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

elcato said:


> I am not in the slightest bit upset but I'm just wondering what you agenda is. Have you a problem with paying your debts if you can afford them in 10 years time ? It seems to me you are here to justify running away and leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab and at the same time never have to actually pay back anything should you be in a position to do so. What's wrong with having married a rich chick (sic) and got loads of money to not actually pay what you owe ? Is it so wrong of the debtors to actually ask for their money back ?


So many strawmen in there that I'm not going to bother too much, I've been quite up front with my intentions (or agenda as you put it) and have stated that my main concern is that if I should manage to save 250k in the next 10 years that the bank might come along and take it making my whole expedition in vain. You need to turn your ire on the people who put you on the hook for my clearly unsustainable debt because I didn't - I entered into a contract with a private institution, not my problem if someone else pulled you into it as I did not agree to this and would never have entered the contract if I knew it meant screwing the taxpayer to get out of it.


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

Bronte said:


> What you state is a legitimate debate for another thread. And it's only a debate if you don't agree with letting people who are bankrupt go bankrupt.
> 
> The OP is quite clearly stressed, moving to Canada is a very big deal, they want to get all their ducks in a row, which is perfectly understandable. I cannot imagine it's been pleasant to have lived since 2008 with the constant stress of this bearing on one's mind. So we must try to be understanding.
> 
> ...


Well put, especially the last sentence. I would also like to add that at the time of draw down I could never have forseen that the "get out" clause would mean the tax payer bears the burden, I would not have entered into contract if I had known that was the case.


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

mandelbrot said:


> So why not go bankrupt either here or in the UK then, like so many others have done?
> 
> Seems to me like you want to have things every way: you wanted the loan to buy the house and got it, you've had the house throughout the period you couldn't and didn't pay for it, you now want to walk away from it by hiding instead of dealing with the situation through the insolvency options available to you.
> 
> It's not that I don't sympathise with your situation, but your idea for the best / most convenient way to deal with it, to hide, seems a bit short sighted.


There's nothing short sighted about wanting to avoid having to needlessly spend 18+ months in UK going bankrupt or 3+ years here, why would I do that if it's not necessary when I could be out working instead after being unemployed for the past 6 years? To keep you and all the "pay irrespective of your ability to pay" brigade happy? Also, I like the way you framed my situation - " didn't pay for the house" as if I had some sort of choice and we weren't in possibly the biggest property crash in any western economy ever with virtually our entire construction sector wiped out, good job on misrepresenting the actual situation to suit your ill informed prejudicial opinion.


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## no_moolah (30 Sep 2014)

Bronte said:


> What you state is a legitimate debate for another thread. And it's only a debate if you don't agree with letting people who are bankrupt go bankrupt.
> 
> The OP is quite clearly stressed, moving to Canada is a very big deal, they want to get all their ducks in a row, which is perfectly understandable. I cannot imagine it's been pleasant to have lived since 2008 with the constant stress of this bearing on one's mind. So we must try to be understanding.
> 
> ...


 
Well put Bronte. We must remember that a lot of people (including me) come to this site to ask for help and advice and not to be judged. I would have steered clear a long time ago if that is the response I got from others.


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

no_moolah said:


> Well put Bronte. We must remember that a lot of people (including me) come to this site to ask for help and advice and not to be judged. I would have steered clear a long time ago if that is the response I got from others.


Just ignore them, they're too silly to realise they're blaming the wrong people. No one drew down a mortgage thinking that if they sought out of the contract it would be borne by the state.


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## elcato (30 Sep 2014)

Without getting into too much more debate here, I think anyone who has followed any advice I gave in the past then in this case mine would simply be go and make a fresh start in Canada. That's the last I will say on the matter as it's clear the political waffle has taken over this thread.
QED


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## gone (30 Sep 2014)

elcato said:


> Without getting into too much more debate here, I think anyone who has followed any advice I gave in the past then in this case mine would simply be go and make a fresh start in Canada. That's the last I will say on the matter as it's clear the political waffle has taken over this thread.
> QED


 Political waffle? Indeed.


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## Gerry Canning (1 Oct 2014)

Some contributors are sure that people should pay their Debts to Banks.

I am not so sure that people should honour bank debts when it is obvious there is not a genuine repayment capacity , as per gones situation.
1. Banks came into Ire to milk profit , and that is fair enough.
2. Between them all Banks greedily and willingly participated in a property bubble.
3. When things blew up , Banks want all the money they advanced back.

a. Most  businesses that are owed money will readily accept much less than the  100% the Banks want back.
b. Why should Irish people repay these largely foreign banks 100% of 100%?
Remember by Irish people taking hit on bondholder types we have already protected these foreign entities.
c. These Banks will now sell their books at circa 30% to vulture funds , secure in the knowledge Mr Irish Taxpayer has already taken the sting out of their losses.

Gone , Seems to have accepted that after 6 years he is going nowhere with this and that Mr Bank will not let there be closure.
Also a lot of the Banks are foreign owned eg Boi,Ulster , Danske,Bos , Start , Ge.
So in a (weird) sense by not paying them we preserve funds in Ire and hit the (bondholders).

From a practical viewpoint, it is unfair to keep dangling debts over people for 6 years +.
I am not advocating blanket non payment , it is just the anomalies are obvious.


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## Delboy (1 Oct 2014)

It's also unfair that people should be allowed to remain in houses rent/mortgage free for 6 years+


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## gone (2 Oct 2014)

Delboy said:


> It's also unfair that people should be allowed to remain in houses rent/mortgage free for 6 years+


Agreed, should probably talk to the banks or the politicians about that.


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## Time (2 Oct 2014)

Agreed, those with the moral outrage should contact their local TD about it.


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## moneybox (5 Oct 2014)

Is your house in a good rental location and if so would you consider renting it out?

You sound young so don't burn your bridges before you leave, I reckon you may want to come back to this country one day with a wife and plans to bring up your kids in Ireland, its the dream of many emigrants afterall.


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## gone (5 Oct 2014)

moneybox said:


> Is your house in a good rental location and if so would you consider renting it out?
> 
> You sound young so don't burn your bridges before you leave, I reckon you may want to come back to this country one day with a wife and plans to bring up your kids in Ireland, its the dream of many emigrants afterall.


It's an average rental location, with current rents I would still be quite a bit away from meeting the mortgage repayments but when this rental bubble pops in 2 or 3 years I'll be considerably further away again
I envisage myself starting to earn decent money again in Canada in approx 5+ years but there are a lot of moving parts to my plans and success is not guaranteed. If the bank was willing to come some of the way to meet me in sharing the burden of this catastrophe I would probably risk keeping the house but they won't budge. Bridges have to be burnt, there's no other way as far as I can see.


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## moneybox (5 Oct 2014)

This whole thing is in a bit of a mess but nothing that cant be sorted. I live in an average sized town and the rents have stayed static over the last 5 to 6 years and will do for the foreseebale future. People will always need places to rent. 

If you considered letting out the house, do you think the bank would restructure your mortgage, longer term etc? Once you settled in Canada you could make arrangements to start sending some money home to make up the short fall. who knows in 12 to 18 months time, there may be a significant increase in the value of your property.


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## Bronte (6 Oct 2014)

The idea of him renting is off the wall, in my opinion. 

Firstly the rent doesn't even cover the mortgage. Then with all the other costs this will never make sense. He might even owe tax on rental, that's how hard it is to make money as a landlord. And the idea of being able to manage a property from Canada is nigh on impossible. 

This poster needs to get on with his life and stop fighting the bank.

A lot of posters seem to be taking issue with the fact he has been paying practically zero to the bank, how can you pay something if you are on the dole ?  He would cost more to taxpayers if he also were to receive rent supplment.  The bank were quite clearly happy for him to remain in the house.  A lot of people don't understand that it has suited the bank in a lot of cases.   This is because they didn't want to reposses on a grand scale, they didn't want to flood the market and bring prices even lower, the owner is the best person to look after a property, and the rent receiver racket is not cost effective nor as effective as leaving the owner in situ until prices rise.  (this is different where you have a block of apparments etc, where economies of scale make it feasible)


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## fobs (6 Oct 2014)

Bronte said:


> The idea of him renting is off the wall, in my opinion.
> 
> Firstly the rent doesn't even cover the mortgage. Then with all the other costs this will never make sense. He might even owe tax on rental, that's how hard it is to make money as a landlord. And the idea of being able to manage a property from Canada is nigh on impossible.
> 
> ...


 
Agree with Bronte as have seen the reality of this with my relative trying to mange his house from Canada. It ended up their parents having constant calls from the agent and they certainly didn't want or were able for the hassle. THey are on the road to a resolution hopefully but it was only when they started plating hardball that the bank engaged.


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## gone (6 Oct 2014)

Bronte said:


> This poster needs to get on with his life and stop fighting the bank.


The most prudent thing to do at this stage would be to contest the repossession in order to drag it out for as long as possible in the hope that any residual debt from sale might shrink as it (house) appreciates in the meantime no? If I got a definite answer that the banks won't come after me in 10 years time then I would certainly hand over the keys in the morning. I've gotten pretty definite answers that I'm grateful for but nothing set in stone and we are potentially talking hundreds of thousands at stake here. It's a tough call from my end,  everything I hope to own could be taken off me in 10 years time if I make the wrong call,maybe I should just listen to the posters that gave me what appears to be sound advice.


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## 44brendan (6 Oct 2014)

> The most prudent thing to do at this stage would be to contest the repossession in order to drag it out for as long as possible in the hope that any residual debt from sale might shrink as it (house) appreciates in the meantime no? If I got a definite answer that the banks won't come after me in 10 years time then I would certainly hand over the keys in the morning. I've gotten pretty definite answers that I'm grateful for but nothing set in stone and we are potentially talking hundreds of thousands at stake here. It's a tough call from my end, everything I hope to own could be taken off me in 10 years time if I make the wrong call,maybe I should just listen to the posters that gave me what appears to be sound advice.


You seem to be looking for too much here without offering anything. IF your current financial circumstances are such that you have no ability to make any reasonable payments to this loan then do as Gerry Canning suggests. Write to the Bank enclosing a Statement of Affairs, Income/expenditure statement and copy bank statements. tell them you intend to emigrate in the short term and offer to voluntarily assist in a handover of the property to them in return for a full and final settlement of the balance outstanding. If they refuse then you can do no more. As for making your fortune in Canada, this may well be feasible and as I said previously the chances of Boi/ICS tracing you and taking legal action against you there are negligible. Also remember that the statute of limitations on a debt is 6 years. If you return home a millionaire in 7 years time and find it splashed all over the newspapers the Bank can take no action against you!


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## gone (6 Oct 2014)

44brendan said:


> You seem to be looking for too much here without offering anything. IF your current financial circumstances are such that you have no ability to make any reasonable payments to this loan then do as Gerry Canning suggests. Write to the Bank enclosing a Statement of Affairs, Income/expenditure statement and copy bank statements. tell them you intend to emigrate in the short term and offer to voluntarily assist in a handover of the property to them in return for a full and final settlement of the balance outstanding. If they refuse then you can do no more. As for making your fortune in Canada, this may well be feasible and as I said previously the chances of Boi/ICS tracing you and taking legal action against you there are negligible. Also remember that the statute of limitations on a debt is 6 years. If you return home a millionaire in 7 years time and find it splashed all over the newspapers the Bank can take no action against you!


I know I'm asking a lot and giving little info, apologies, am scared that the banks may be perusing these pages and the wrong  little bit of info could probably identify me, Ireland is tiny in this respect imo.
I have made the offer you suggested and they blanked me so I have only 2 options now, immediate voluntary surrender or contested repossession in the hope that the gaff will appreciate in the meantime making my debt even smaller.
Surely the later is more prudent, I mean it will cost me nothing more than voluntary surrender and if (I accept it's a big paranoid if) a law changes or something happens that makes the banks able to chase me 5 years down the line then the bill they hand me will be a few quid less? 
I mean negligible isn't quite absolute and it costs me nothing to protect myself in the eventuality that negligible changes into reality over the next 5 years. Maybe I'm seeking to much certainty when it simply can't be given.
Again thanks for your advice, I will end up taking it, I just want to try and get as much certainty as I can before I do.


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## Mrs Vimes (6 Oct 2014)

gone said:


> contested repossession in the hope that the gaff will appreciate in the meantime making my debt even smaller.
> Surely the later is more prudent, I mean *it will cost me nothing more than voluntary surrender *and if (I accept it's a big paranoid if) a law changes or something happens that makes the banks able to chase me 5 years down the line then the bill they hand me will be a few quid less?



If it happens that you drag out repossession proceedings for years (which  i'm sure you could do easily) and by the time the bank repossesses the house it has risen in value such that the negative equity is turned into positive equity, you do realise that the costs of the years of legal fees will also fall on you and that the bank may decide to pursue you just for revenge?

Even if the law changes to make mortgage debt non-recourse (very much doubt any such change could be applied to existing mortgage contracts anyway) it probably wouldn't extend to the legal fees you would then owe the bank.


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## gone (6 Oct 2014)

Mrs Vimes said:


> If it happens that you drag out repossession proceedings for years (which  i'm sure you could do easily) and by the time the bank repossesses the house it has risen in value such that the negative equity is turned into positive equity, you do realise that the costs of the years of legal fees will also fall on you and that the bank may decide to pursue you just for revenge?
> 
> Even if the law changes to make mortgage debt non-recourse (very much doubt any such change could be applied to existing mortgage contracts anyway) it probably wouldn't extend to the legal fees you would then owe the bank.


Thanks for input, the bank's legal firm has suggested liability for legal fee's of approx 3k should I contest it.
How long do you think it might be possible to drag it out for?


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## Time (6 Oct 2014)

At most a few months.


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## gone (6 Oct 2014)

Time said:


> At most a few months.


Oh I thought I was looking at approx 14 + months so another say, 40% 
http://www.independent.ie/business/...es-rise-by-a-third-in-12-months-30640720.html


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## Time (6 Oct 2014)

Once it gets into court you have about 6 months tops.


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## Dermot (6 Oct 2014)

I would not take the €3k as the maximum legal fees that they might follow you for.  It would all depend on the length of time in court and court appearances that might take place.  You will find that you will be caught for Auctioneers and Legal fees for the sale of it and there might be costs for a receiver.  
I am just point out these costs so as that you might consider them when doing you figures. 
I genuinely wish you good luck with all of this and try and not ruin your health and life with the stress of all of this.  I have a friend in a similar situation as yourself with the same Bank as you and I know what he is and has being going through. 
He is slowly adjusting to the situation with the help of lifelong friends.  It is all he has.
Best of luck


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## gone (6 Oct 2014)

Dermot said:


> I would not take the €3k as the maximum legal fees that they might follow you for.  It would all depend on the length of time in court and court appearances that might take place.  You will find that you will be caught for Auctioneers and Legal fees for the sale of it and there might be costs for a receiver.
> I am just point out these costs so as that you might consider them when doing you figures.
> I genuinely wish you good luck with all of this and try and not ruin your health and life with the stress of all of this.  I have a friend in a similar situation as yourself with the same Bank as you and I know what he is and has being going through.
> He is slowly adjusting to the situation with the help of lifelong friends.  It is all he has.
> Best of luck


Um thanks I guess.


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## Bronte (7 Oct 2014)

gone said:


> I know I'm asking a lot and giving little info, apologies, am scared that the banks may be perusing these pages and the wrong little bit of info could probably identify me, Ireland is tiny in this respect imo.
> .


 
I wouldn't be so worried, it's easy for you to 'hide' the details, just tell us you're in Donegal when you're in Kerry, say the house is in Galway when it's in Dublin etc.  The banks are inundated with people like you and unable to cope, you are just a number.  Unless you are telling us you owe millions.  I pressume we're talking south of 1/2 mil ?


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## Bronte (7 Oct 2014)

gone said:


> Thanks for input, the bank's legal firm has suggested liability for legal fee's of approx 3k should I contest it.
> How long do you think it might be possible to drag it out for?


 
That's a very naive statement.  Going to the High Court could be many many multiples of that, then there's all the sneaky bits, in the small print.  Interest on interest on interest, penalties, charges, all sorts.


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## gone (7 Oct 2014)

Bronte said:


> That's a very naive statement.  Going to the High Court could be many many multiples of that, then there's all the sneaky bits, in the small print.  Interest on interest on interest, penalties, charges, all sorts.


Thanks, yeah I'm here to get clued in.


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## gone (8 Oct 2014)

bronte said:


> i wouldn't be so worried, it's easy for you to 'hide' the details, just tell us you're in donegal when you're in kerry, say the house is in galway when it's in dublin etc.  The banks are inundated with people like you and unable to cope, you are just a number.  Unless you are telling us you owe millions.  I pressume we're talking south of 1/2 mil ?


200-250


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## Time (9 Oct 2014)

Zero chance of them following you to Canada in that case.


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## RichInSpirit (9 Oct 2014)

gone said:


> I know I'm asking a lot and giving little info, apologies, am scared that the banks may be perusing these pages and the wrong  little bit of info could probably identify me, Ireland is tiny in this respect imo.



That's an angle I'd be thinking too. Maybe not the banks per say, but debt collectors, private detectives etc. Even your talk about changing your name here on the public Internet, could give a clue to someone about finding you in the future.

I am sympathetic to your plight but you should just grasp the metal and get on with your escape plans. I know these things are sometimes easier said than done.


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