# Docking wages for human error



## Sambuca (15 Feb 2010)

Does anyone know if an employer can dock wages due to a mistake my the employee.

A member of staff mis qouted a benefit on a policy where there was a claim. The client wanted payment from the company due to being told by a member of staff. Now the company wants to dock the employee the value of the claim. Is this legal?

The employee was gien 3 choices : Pay it and stay, Dont pay it and walk or the company pays it and walk


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## patftrears (15 Feb 2010)

Sambuca said:


> Does anyone know if an employer can dock wages due to a mistake my the employee.
> 
> A member of staff mis qouted a benefit on a policy where there was a claim. The client wanted payment from the company due to being told by a member of staff. Now the company wants to dock the employee the value of the claim. Is this legal?
> 
> The employee was gien 3 choices : Pay it and stay, Dont pay it and walk or the company pays it and walk


They cannot make the employee pay for it, that is illegal.


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## Sambuca (15 Feb 2010)

Thats what I thought but they took the value of the claim from the employees wages and have said if any more mistakes are made that employees have to take the hit!


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## Complainer (15 Feb 2010)

The employee should call NERA.


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## Hobbs256 (18 Feb 2010)

Is he/she a permanent employee or a contractor?


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## Purple (19 Feb 2010)

Complainer said:


> The employee should call NERA.



+1
They can't do it, it is illegal.


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## Claire1956 (19 Feb 2010)

Page 17 Booklet of Payment of Wage Act
4. Deductions from Wages and Payments to Employer

There is a provision to deduct wages for such acts. As long as you follow the correct procedure and the employee is notified in their original contract that the deductions for errors/damage etc is a possible outcome, it is not illegal.

It makes me so mad that someone could tell you its illegal. I am so tired of people expecting to be 'nannied' in the work place. Your pay is for the work you do and taking responsibilty for same. Just as I have to take responsibility to manage a safe and comfortable workplace, have my cabinets full of 'cover your end' documents for all staff members less I should be should sued for negligence, and then for a staff member to make a mistake and 'not be accountable'.........maddening!!


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## Purple (19 Feb 2010)

Claire1956 said:


> Page 17 Booklet of Payment of Wage Act
> 4. Deductions from Wages and Payments to Employer
> 
> There is a provision to deduct wages for such acts. As long as you follow the correct procedure and the employee is notified in their original contract that the deductions for errors/damage etc is a possible outcome, it is not illegal.
> ...



In the unlikely event that the employment contract makes employees liable for the cost of their errors while at work  such a clause must be shown to the employee before deductions are made. In any sector where the value of the work being carried out is far greater than the wage being paid such clauses are, from what I know, unheard of. For example if an employee in Intel  smashed a cart filled with finished wafers it would plunge about 10 generations of their family into indentured slavery. 

If the employees actions can be shown to have been malicious or criminal then that’s a different story; the employer can take them to court, but they still can’t deduct the cost from their wages.


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## Claire1956 (19 Feb 2010)

We have it in our employment contracts. And it is in black and white that an employee can have deductions made for any act or omission as long as the conditions in the Act are met. Your example is in the extreme. I would regularly see errors costing of €40- €50 to the company born by carelessness or indifference. These are the most common. The poster did not give the details, but they are unlikely to be in the extreme that you offer as an example.


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## chrisboy (19 Feb 2010)

Purple said:


> For example if an employee in Intel  smashed a cart filled with finished wafers it would plunge about 10 generations of their family into indentured slavery.
> 
> If the employees actions can be shown to have been malicious or criminal then that’s a different story; the employer can take them to court, but they still can’t deduct the cost from their wages.




In my very early years as an elecrical apprentice in Fab 10 in Intel i cut a 32 core cable linked to the chemical washers for these wafers.. God, the damage i caused that day... Just as well i wasnt docked otherwise i'd still be paying nearly 20 years later!!


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## missdaisy (19 Feb 2010)

Sambucha, does the employment contract say anything about the right of employer to deduct wages for errors?


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## becky (19 Feb 2010)

I would doubt if the company in question has any such clause regarding deductions from wages.  A company that gives the 3 options they gave indicates to me that they don’t as if they did they should have referred him to his contact.   So in my view this is an illegal deduction.


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## Claire1956 (19 Feb 2010)

I would agree with you Becky - the tone doesn't bode well. But if managed correctly it is not illegal. Employers do have some rights when they follow processes.


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## JoeB (19 Feb 2010)

There are only two options, pay and stay, or don't pay and walk.. the third option is irrelevant.

The company should say tough to the client... although they were given incorrect info it had no effect, the correct info was that a benefit was not covered, but it seems the damage was already caused.. it doesn't sound like the client made a decision to purchase a policy based on the false info, it seems like they already had a policy and only rang up to see if a particular claim would be covered, after the problem to be claimed for had occurred...

It would be different if the client had made a decision to purchase based on incorrect info, but even then the client would be advised to read the policy.


If an employee makes a mistake it can be argued that this is because they haven't received adequate training, and is thus the employers fault.. Of course someone can always drop a bottle of vodka in a pub, not much that training can do about that.. but even in that case training on how to handle fragile items could have been given..


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## Claire1956 (23 Feb 2010)

From reading the posts on this thread I now understand why retail businesses have such a mark-up, to cover the careless mistakes of staff as they obviously are not trained sufficiently to simply take care of other peoples property/business........well at least all of us are paying for their mistakes! A really good approach instead of of insisting people take care.


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## Complainer (23 Feb 2010)

Claire1956 said:


> From reading the posts on this thread I now understand why retail businesses have such a mark-up, to cover the careless mistakes of staff as they obviously are not trained sufficiently to simply take care of other peoples property/business........well at least all of us are paying for their mistakes! A really good approach instead of of insisting people take care.


That's a strange conclusion to jump to from this thread, Claire - given that the OP wasn't referring to a retail business.


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## Claire1956 (23 Feb 2010)

The OP's query is valid, and my first reply to was to correct an inaccurate response. However the thread moved on and it is not that query I am replying to now, it is the overall 'tone' of peoples attitudes to mistakes being made and stating that the employer can't hold staff accountable, i.e. it's illegal to have staff pay for their mistakes was a clear communication in the thread. 

The conclusion I am drawing is that no-one feels ownership for their actions, it's always the fault of someone else. I am aware that other business owners may be reading the thread, some of them new to business. They may now believe that they cannot hold their staff to account, which I would also believe if I didn't know better based on the replies in the thread. But the truth is that the cost of mistakes an employee makes can be deducted.

When I shared that info on the thread one of the replies was 'oh I cost Intel X amount, good job I didn't have to pay' - but don't the readers realise that they do pay somewhere along the line...............we all pay.

I took the retail example as much of todays media is criticising retailers for the mark-up. But looking at the overall 'it's not me' attitude the mark-up must be partially to cover costs such as those examples mentioned in this thread..do you see the full circle I am talking about??

Bottom line not one of the posters agreed that the cost of an employees mistake can be deducted! However, it can!


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## JoeB (23 Feb 2010)

Well, if employers always charged employees for mistakes then some industries may find it hard to get staff,  like Intel... or else employees may need insurance.

An employer could consider firing a staff member for incompetence.


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## Mpsox (23 Feb 2010)

Claire1956 said:


> Bottom line not one of the posters agreed that the cost of an employees mistake can be deducted! However, it can!


 
The Payment of Wages act clearly sets out the circumstances in which such deductions can be made. They can only be made if the employee agrees or his contract allows it. Such deductions must be fair and reasonable  having regards to all the circumstances, including the employees salary and must be made within 6 months of the original issue occuring

In the case of the OP, if the person's contract does not allow for such deductions to be made or if they do not agree to it and are dismissed, the likelihood is that they would have a strong case for unfair dismissal, which would more then likely cost the employer more then the original issues

Note the reference that deductions must be fair and reasonable. Employers have a responsibility to ensure that their staff are adequetly trained, have the necessary equipment and sufficent numbers to minimise the risk of errors. Employees should not be punished if there employer/manager is incompetent or cuts costs and resources so much that mistakes are inevitable


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## Purple (23 Feb 2010)

Mpsox said:


> The Payment of Wages act clearly sets out the circumstances in which such deductions can be made. They can only be made if the employee agrees or his contract allows it. Such deductions must be fair and reasonable  having regards to all the circumstances, including the employees salary and must be made within 6 months of the original issue occuring
> 
> In the case of the OP, if the person's contract does not allow for such deductions to be made or if they do not agree to it and are dismissed, the likelihood is that they would have a strong case for unfair dismissal, which would more then likely cost the employer more then the original issues
> 
> Note the reference that deductions must be fair and reasonable. Employers have a responsibility to ensure that their staff are adequetly trained, have the necessary equipment and sufficent numbers to minimise the risk of errors. Employees should not be punished if there employer/manager is incompetent or cuts costs and resources so much that mistakes are inevitable



+1
I find myself agreeing with Complainer on this thread (for the second time in weeks!). We would never deduct the cost of errors from employees wages. Not only is it a can of worms since they can claim lack of training etc but it creates a very bad working environment and a "them and us" attitude which is like a cancer in any business. I do think that employees should be made fully aware of the consequences of their mistakes and if possible share the pain when facing the customer (if that’s appropriate). 

The notion that high costs in retail, or any sector of the Irish economy, is in any substantial way down to the cost of employee mistakes is utter nonsense.

If your employee is no good then fire them. If you can’t figure out if they are good or bad within 12 months then you’re no good at hiring people and you’ve probably no business being an employer.


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## Claire1956 (23 Feb 2010)

Purple, you stated that it it illegal - that is not correct. Don't bother with the attitude that I am a poor boss and poor in business because I take a stand on a matter. 

I have a commitment to my customers and I hire and pay people to assist in that commitment. They are accountable for their actions when representing my company. If they damage my company in any way that is due to indifference or carelessness they will have to face up to their actions.

BTW: There are lots of SME owners who read the threads on this site who have staff who make errors that are not on the scale you use as an example. Are you keen to mis-inform them? 

Finally, the irony that a number of the threads on the AAM site are about peoples dissatisfaction with the companies who staff who make errors etc. and wonder how to get compensated!


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## Purple (23 Feb 2010)

Claire1956 said:


> Purple, you stated that it it illegal - that is not correct. Don't bother with the attitude that I am a poor boss and poor in business because I take a stand on a matter.
> 
> I have a commitment to my customers and I hire and pay people to assist in that commitment. They are accountable for their actions when representing my company. If they damage my company in any way that is due to indifference or carelessness they will have to face up to their actions.
> 
> ...


 
I'm a shareholder in an SME.

I have outlines why I think it's a bad idea to do as the OP’s employer is attempting to do. 

It has been clarified by other posters that, unless explicitly stated in a contract of employment, it is illegal to deduct costs due to human error from an employee’s wages though I do accept that my initial post was not accurate in every case.

 I made no comments about your ability as a boss, one way or the other.


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## Complainer (23 Feb 2010)

Claire1956 said:


> The OP's query is valid, and my first reply to was to correct an inaccurate response. However the thread moved on and it is not that query I am replying to now, it is the overall 'tone' of peoples attitudes to mistakes being made and stating that the employer can't hold staff accountable, i.e. it's illegal to have staff pay for their mistakes was a clear communication in the thread.
> 
> The conclusion I am drawing is that no-one feels ownership for their actions, it's always the fault of someone else. I am aware that other business owners may be reading the thread, some of them new to business. They may now believe that they cannot hold their staff to account, which I would also believe if I didn't know better based on the replies in the thread. But the truth is that the cost of mistakes an employee makes can be deducted.
> 
> ...


That's a fairly one-sided view of the situation.

You forget that employers have responsibilities - to recruit, to pay adequate rates, to train, to supervise, to document procedures etc etc.  It sounds like you are very quick to blame employees, I just wonder if you are so quick to ensure that employees are adequetly prepared for their role.

It is not unusual for any B2B contract to rule out liability for consequential loss. So suppliers of IT systems or fridges aren't responsible for costs arising from their failure. But you seem to want to hold employees to a higher bar. 

In many cases, this would be clearly nonsensical (like the Intel example above) as the employee would simply not have anything like enough money/assets to fund this liability.


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## Bronte (24 Feb 2010)

I think the OP has to pay the damages or lose his job.  It's no good quoting wage acts and unfair dismissal there are ways around that.  Simply put the employer can fire the staff member for incompetence and if he doesn't pay up the employer will make his life hell until he quits.  That's the stark reality of life in many jobs.  Not everybody is Intel.  In an ideal world the staff member wouldn't have to pay up but we don't live in an ideal world and we live in a world where jobs are scarce which puts added pressure on the worker in this case.  So choice is pay up or leave.


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## Claire1956 (24 Feb 2010)

Quote: You forget that employers have responsibilities - to recruit, to pay adequate rates, to train, to supervise, to document procedures etc etc. It sounds like you are very quick to blame employees, I just wonder if you are so quick to ensure that employees are adequetly prepared for their role.


Trust me, I don't forget. The reason I am quick to respond on this matter is because I take the time to ensure that staff are trained, are able to work at the level required, have time to adjust to new roles, negotiate any changes in work practices, can fit the work into their lifestyle that gives a positive outcome for both us. Perhaps if I cared a little less I wouldn't get so bothered when staff are careless and show a lack of effort on their part.


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## Latrade (24 Feb 2010)

An employer cannot make a deduction from the wages of an employee (or receive any payment from an employee) unless: 
the deduction (or payment) is required or authorised by law (for example PRSI etc.)
The deduction (or payment) is required and authorised to be made by virtue of a term of the employee's contract of employment and this term was provided for in the contract before, and was in force at the time of, the deduction (or payment),
in the case of a deduction, the employee has given his prior consent to the deduction in writing.
An employer cannot make a deduction from the wages of an employee in respect of 

any act or omission of the employee, or
any goods or services supplied to the employee
unless: 
the deduction is required or authorised to be made by virtue of a term of the contract of employment, and before the act or omission, the employee was notified in writing of the existence of this term,
the deduction is of an amount that is fair and reasonable having regard to all the circumstances, and
the employer, at least one week before the deduction, notifies the employee in writing of the particulars of the act or omission and the amount of the deduction.


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## Mpsox (24 Feb 2010)

Claire1956 said:


> Quote: You forget that employers have responsibilities - to recruit, to pay adequate rates, to train, to supervise, to document procedures etc etc. It sounds like you are very quick to blame employees, I just wonder if you are so quick to ensure that employees are adequetly prepared for their role.
> 
> 
> Trust me, I don't forget. The reason I am quick to respond on this matter is because I take the time to ensure that staff are trained, are able to work at the level required, have time to adjust to new roles, negotiate any changes in work practices, can fit the work into their lifestyle that gives a positive outcome for both us. Perhaps if I cared a little less I wouldn't get so bothered when staff are careless and show a lack of effort on their part.


 
I'm glad to hear that, however, if you deduct money from staff wages that they have not agreed to or that their contract of employment does not allow you to do so, you are breaking the law. It's black and white


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## Claire1956 (24 Feb 2010)

That was the point that I made in my first post on this thread!!!! As long as you follow procedure as laid out in the Act you can deduct - black and white indeed.


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